Tuesday Volume 543 24 April 2012 No. 293

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 24 April 2012

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Mr Hoban: We have heard the same old stuff from House of Commons the hon. Gentleman for the last 42 years. Perhaps it is time for him to help youth unemployment by creating a Tuesday 24 April 2012 vacancy. We are providing young people with more help to get into work, with an extra quarter of a million apprenticeship places. I would have thought he would The House met at half-past Two o’clock have welcomed the fact that the city of Sheffield enterprise zone is at Markham vale in his constituency. That is the PRAYERS sort of practical action this Government are taking to ensure that jobs are being created.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): Will the Minister explain to employers—in Bolsover and BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS elsewhere—that as of this month there is a youth contract that will pay them to take on unemployed young people? TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (SUPPLEMENTAL TOLL PROVISIONS)BILL [LORDS](BY ORDER) Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Some Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday 1 May 160,000 wage incentives, worth up to £2,775 each, are (Standing Order No. 20.) available for employers who recruit an 18 to 24-year-old through the Work programme. LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): Can the Minister Motion made, tell us how many young people have now been out of That the promoters of the London Local Authorities and work for more than six months, and how that compares Transport for London (No. 2) Bill [Lords], which was originally with the figure of a year ago? introduced in the House of Lords in Session 2007-08 on 22 January 2008, should have leave to suspend any further proceedings on the Mr Hoban: I would have thought the shadow Chief bill in order to proceed with it, if they think fit, in the next Session Secretary would have welcomed the fact that youth of Parliament according to the provisions of Standing Order unemployment fell last month. That demonstrates that 188A (Suspension of bills.)—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) the Government are taking action to tackle the scourge of youth unemployment—a problem that did not emerge Hon. Members: Object. under this Government, as youth unemployment also To be considered on Tuesday 1 May. rose when her party was in government.

Rachel Reeves: The Minister failed to answer my Oral Answers to Questions question, so let me tell the House that 170,000 young people have been out of work for more than six months. That is an increase of 114% since just a year ago. Does the Minister think it is fair that families with children TREASURY are being asked to pay a higher price for deficit reduction than the banks, and if not, will he reconsider reinstating The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— the bank bonus tax to support young people back to work—especially as his Budget has given a tax cut Bank Bonus Tax worth £40,000 to 14,000 millionaires?

1. Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): If he will Mr Hoban: I just point out to the hon. Lady that the consider imposing a further bonus tax on banks to fund last Labour Government ruled out introducing a bank job creation for young people who are unemployed. levy. That levy is raising £2.5 billion, and it will raise [104789] £10 billion over the lifetime of this Parliament. I think it is right that banks should pay a fair contribution for the The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark risks they have posed for the UK economy, and I would Hoban): The bank payroll tax is a one-off measure, but have thought she would have welcomed both the bank the Government have gone further by imposing a levy and the fall in youth unemployment last month. permanent bank levy that will raise £10 billion over the course of this Parliament. Those funds will help to pay Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Youthunemployment for the youth contract, introduced this month, which is clearly more acute in some parts of the country than will provide up to 500,000 young people with new in others. Why does the Minister think it has fallen in education and employment opportunities. over a third of the country, including Bolsover, but not in some constituencies, such as Bradford West, where it Mr Skinner: So the answer is no: they are not going to has increased by 500? introduce a bank bonus tax that could provide jobs for 100,000 young people and still leave money to spend on Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend makes the important providing a training facility at Markham vale, which point that the pattern of youth unemployment varies would serve all the constituencies of south Yorkshire across the country. It is important that the necessary and the north midlands. What an opportunity! If this support is in place to help young people looking for posh, arrogant Government will not do that, the next work, and the Work programme is likely to help 100,000 Labour Government will do it for them. young people this year. That is just one of the practical 793 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 794 measures we are taking to tackle the problem of youth increase in capital allowances, rather than cuts and cuts unemployment—which, as the right hon. Member for in corporation tax. Why do the Government not do South Shields (David Miliband) said, started under the this? last Labour Government. Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman will know Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): With the disgrace that we have put in place enhanced capital allowances in of having more than a million young people unemployed a number of enterprise zones around the country, up and down this country, does the Minister not now particularly to focus investment in plant and equipment regret scrapping the future jobs fund during the first in such areas. We announced in the autumn statement few months after coming to power? improvements to the short-life capital allowances regime, which had been a major request by manufacturing and, Mr Hoban: It was clear that the future jobs fund was in particular, the engineering sector. I would have thought not cost-effective in helping young people, and we have that he would have welcomed those changes. found that the work experience programme is 20 times more effective. We have introduced a range of measures Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): The Budget to help young people find work. We have already talked identified a number of sectors for fiscal support. All about the increase in the number of apprenticeship Departments and all of us can think of deserving cases, places, the number of people being helped by the Work particularly in our constituencies, but is it not the programme and the number of wage incentives in place Treasury’s job to hold the line on industrial policy, through the youth contract. We are going to see more remove the implicit subsidy from banking and other voluntary work taking place and more job experience. industries, and ensure that economic resources, through, Those are the practical measures needed to tackle youth for example, corporation tax cuts, flow to businesses unemployment. that can succeed without state support?

Manufacturing Sector Danny Alexander: I agree with my hon. Friend. I am sure that he would agree with me that the Vickers report on the banking sector does precisely the first thing he 2. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): mentioned, and that our approach to corporation tax— What fiscal steps he is taking to encourage investment reducing headline rates year by year to the lowest level and growth in the manufacturing sector. [104790] in the G7 and one of the lowest levels in the G20—precisely achieves the objective that he set out. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): The Government have taken a number of steps to Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Will the Chief Secretary support manufacturing industry, including: reducing tell the House whether he read the explanatory notes on corporation tax rates, with the main rate falling to his VAT on caravans proposal? If he did read them, why 22% by 2014, which is the lowest in the G7; introducing on earth did he support a proposal that reduces demand a new above-the-line credit to support research and in manufacturing by 30% and hits tourist industries, development in the UK; and introducing the patent box such as those in my area, 100%? Will he now review it? to reduce tax on profits from patents. Danny Alexander: Of course I did read the explanatory Tom Brake: Was the Chief Secretary as shocked as I notes. The right hon. Gentleman will know that we have was to hear the shadow Chief Secretary say on “Newsnight” listened to the representations in favour of extending that she opposed the coalition Government’s corporation the consultation period and have extended the deadline tax cuts? Will he set out what particular measures could to 18 May to enable individuals such as him, and his help businesses such as Monument Tools, a manufacturer constituents, to make representations as part of that of tools in my constituency that is able to compete with consultation. Chinese competitors? Budget Deficit Danny Alexander: I was indeed shocked to hear the shadow Chief Secretary say on “Newsnight” that she 3. John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): What recent opposed the cut in corporation tax. I would have thought representations he has received on reducing the budget that the Labour party would welcome such a measure, deficit. [104791] as it is designed to increase investment in British businesses and support economic growth—that is The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): something that Labour Members say they want to see. Every significant business organisation and international The constituency firm to which my right hon. Friend body has welcomed this Government’s decisive action refers could benefit from the national loan guarantee to deal with the record budget deficit that we inherited scheme and the credit easing scheme that the Chancellor from our predecessors. Not only has that action brought announced at the Budget, and it could participate in the low interest rates for families and firms, but it has made advanced manufacturing supply chain initiative, which Britain a safer haven in what, as everyone can see today, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has remains a very volatile European debt storm. announced, whereby £125 million is being spent to help manufacturers improve their performance. John Stevenson: The Office for Budget Responsibility’s Budget report stated that the interest paid on our Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): national debt will be about £43 billion this year, rising Manufacturing businesses in the black country are adamant to about £60 billion by the end of this Parliament. That that what will help them improve their investment is an rise in interest payments is a direct consequence of the 795 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 796 previous Government’s action, but what action is the Small Businesses Chancellor taking to ensure that this interest rate bill does not rise any further? 4. Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): What steps he is taking to increase the availability of credit to small Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is right to remind us all businesses. [104792] that the Government have to pay interest on the enormous debts that the Labour party racked up and the budget The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): deficit it bequeathed us. The action we have taken Lending to small businesses is a real concern at a time means that we are paying £36 billion less in interest of stress in the financial markets. That is why the payments over this Parliament, which completely dwarfs Government acted last month by launching the £20 billion any initiative ever put forward by the shadow Chancellor. national loan guarantee scheme. It is still in its first few weeks, but the signs are that businesses are getting cheaper loans, which will help support recovery. Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): Why are the Government now forecasting that they will borrow Karen Lumley: Small businesses are obviously the key £150 billion more than they envisaged a year ago? Has to the economic recovery. Will the Secretary of State not cutting back too far, too fast completely backfired? reassure business people in Redditch that the Government will continue to look at funding for SMEs to ensure that finance reaches even the smallest companies? Mr Osborne: As a former teacher, the hon. Gentleman read that very well. He should also study the Institute Mr Osborne: I can certainly give my hon. Friend that for Fiscal Studies’ statement that if we had stuck to the assurance and say to businesses in her constituency and plan left to us by the Labour party we would be borrowing in other constituencies that the national loan guarantee £200 billion more than we are borrowing at the moment scheme is now available through most of the high street and, as I just said, paying £36 billion more in interest banks. We are also investing through something called payments to creditors of the British Government. the business finance partnership in non-bank financing of businesses. Some of that money will be for very small 24. [104813] Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): In May 2010, businesses, too, through peer-to-peer lending. As everyone the level of yield on UK Government 10-year gilts was accepts, I think, financial markets across the world, the same as those of Italy and Spain. Now we are at particularly in Europe, are stressed. That is why Government record lows and they are at 7%, so what does that say have to step in and help, and that is what the £20 billion about the credibility of the UK Government’s plan? of guarantees that we are offering under the scheme will do.

Mr Osborne: Again, my hon. Friend is absolutely Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): The right. We have very low interest rates in an environment Chancellor of the Exchequer must be aware of the in which many other European countries have much pressures being exerted by banks on small and medium-sized higher interest rates. That is a reflection of market businesses. What more can he and his Government do confidence in the UK’s deficit reduction plan, and of to get the banks to assist by making credit available course if we had pursued the path advocated by the rather than undermining many of those very good Opposition—the same path that led us into this economic businesses? mess—we would be paying a higher interest rate, and there would be higher interest rates and families would Mr Osborne: The hon. Gentleman is right that small have higher mortgage bills. businesses face difficult financing conditions because of the stress in the financial markets and the fact that banks are not able to access funding in the way that they Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): May I were four or five years ago. That is why we have taken very gently and in the friendliest way possible suggest the step of credit easing, which is not something that a that the Chancellor should not be quite so arrogant Government would do in more normal economic times, about his record as regards public borrowing? In and it is why we have the finance partnership and are Washington this weekend, he said that expanding the enterprise finance guarantee. Those are “we have sorted out our problems.” all designed as Government interventions, using the That is what the Chancellor told us. We have high good credit worthiness that we have earned for this unemployment and slow to non-existent growth. When country, to ensure that those lower interest rates can be will he realise that public borrowing is £150 billion passed on to small businesses. higher than he predicted in his spending review? Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that in a Mr Osborne: As today’s public finance numbers show, banking sector where only up to about 2% of bank we have hit the deficit reduction target we set out in the balance sheets is invested in the real economy, what we autumn statement and in the Budget. I am glad that the really need is a revolution in competition in that sector? hon. Gentleman brings up Washington and the IMF What is he doing to ensure that there will be more new summit. Perhaps we will hear later from the shadow entrants into the banking industry in future? Chancellor, as we did not have a chance to yesterday, what he thinks about the fact that the previous Chancellor Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend makes an extremely of the Exchequer completely disagrees with the position good point, which is that the banking industry has that he has taken on behalf of the Labour party. become very consolidated in recent years, because of 797 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 798 the various mergers and failures during the financial Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We crisis. Our ambition as a Government is to increase saw that in leaflets before the election and we see it in competition on the high street, and we took an important leaflets now. None of it is true. step towards that with our decision to sell Northern Rock back into the private sector and to support Virgin Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): The Chancellor claims Money as a new lender on the high street, but of course to be credible and consistent in his decision making, other divestments are due to take place, and the ambition including his decision to withdraw the age-related tax in the Vickers report, which we are implementing, is to allowances—the so-called granny tax that my hon. Friend increase competition. the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) just asked about. In that case, will the Minister confirm why, in Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): With 50 businesses February 2009, the present Chancellor explicitly called going bust every day, but still getting battered by the for the tax-free allowance for pensioners to be increased? banks with high interest rates and charges, when is the Chancellor going to get a hold of the banks and get Mr Gauke: In the light of the very substantial increase them to put some money into the country and into in the general personal allowance and of the concerns British business? After all, we are the ones who bailed raised by the Office of Tax Simplification that the them out. current structure does not have support, that is the right move. Pensioners are well protected by our policies and will continue to be so, but that move is one that results Mr Osborne: I am glad the hon. Gentleman reminds in a simpler and fairer tax system. us that the previous Government bailed out the banks with no conditions attached, and we are having to pick up the mess. We want to help small business lending by National Infrastructure Plan using the Government’s balance sheet and the low interest rates we have earned with a credible deficit 7. Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): What plan. We intend to increase competition in the high progress the Government has made on the implementation street: we sent Northern Rock back into the private of the national infrastructure plan. [104795] sector with Virgin Money, a decision that was welcomed in the north-east of England, but opposed by the shadow The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): Chancellor. We are taking the steps necessary, but yes, We published an update on the national infrastructure we are dealing with one enormous mess left to us by plan alongside the Budget, showing the progress that Labour. has been made on all the priority investments. As an example, the Budget was able to confirm that the pensions Age-related Income Tax Allowances infrastructure platform that we have established to enable British pension funds to invest in infrastructure in this country will be able to make its first wave of £2 billion 5. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What assessment investment by early 2013. he has made of the effect on pensioners of the proposed changes to age-related income tax allowances. [104793] Iain Stewart: I very much welcome the plan and congratulate the Government on prioritising rail investment, The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David such as the east-west line through my constituency. May Gauke): No one will pay more tax in 2013-14 than they I urge my right hon. Friend to continue that investment do today as a result of the changes. There are no cash in the classic network, as well as finding the funds for losers. The Government remain absolutely committed High Speed 2? to supporting pensioners. We have introduced a triple guarantee for the basic state pension, ensuring that it Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend makes an important will increase each and every year by the highest of point. The investment in High Speed 2 will not affect earnings, prices or 2.5%. We have also protected other the amount of investment in the traditional rail network. benefits that make a real difference to the lives of It will allow us to go forward—for example, with the millions of pensioners. investment in the Oxford to Bedford rail line, which I know will affect his constituency, create 12,000 jobs and Nick Smith: What does the Minister have to say to give a boost of £38 million to that area’s economy. those who are turning 65 in just under a year’s time? They are set to be more than £25 a month worse off Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does than they thought they would be, but they have no time the Minister realise that those of us who represent the to plan for that change. squeezed middle in this country—the northern and midland regions—are sick to death of seeing London and the south-east getting all the infrastructure investment, Mr Gauke: Those who turn 65 next year will benefit all the cranes, while we are waiting patiently for investment from the biggest increase in the personal allowance that in our part of the world, where we have been in recession we have ever seen. for three years?

Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): In Danny Alexander: In that case, the hon. Gentleman the past couple of weeks, I have read in leaflets that ought also to welcome the substantial investment, for pensioners have been hit by the Government axing free example, in the northern hub rail project. He ought to bus passes, free prescriptions and free television licences. welcome the substantial investment in the electrification Did I miss something in the Budget, or are those simply of the trans-Pennine railway. He ought to welcome the lies from the Labour party? substantial investment in the capital infrastructure around 799 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 800 ports to enable the north and the north-east of England Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): To what extent to benefit, particularly from the investment in renewables does the Minister believe that having the top rate of tax that we will see over the coming years. A fair picture in the G20 helps British competitiveness? would represent those things too. Mr Gauke: It clearly does not. It is striking that, as Income Tax the HMRC report showed, the number of UK citizens moving to Switzerland rose by 29% when the 50p rate was introduced. It does nothing for our competitiveness. 8. Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): What recent It does nothing to raise money. It was a failure of a assessment he has made of the rate of income tax paid policy. by those earning over £150,000 per year. [104796]

The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David 17. [104806] Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North Gauke): The Government are committed to ensuring East) (Lab): According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, that everyone pays their fair share of tax. The percentage one year is not long enough to judge the effectiveness of of total income tax paid by the top 1% will be more the 50p tax rate. According to HMRC, the taxable than 27% in 2012-13 and in subsequent years, compared income elasticity is highly uncertain. Therefore, will the with an average of less than 23% between 1997 and Minister admit that his decision to scrap the 50p tax 2010. Budget 2012 announced a package of measures rate was ideological, rather than based on some flimsy to ensure that those on the highest incomes contribute evidence that does not actually exist? more. This includes a cap on previously uncapped income tax reliefs, which will increase effective tax rates. Mr Gauke: It is not flimsy evidence; it is evidence that shows two different models. It is consistent with the Graeme Morrice: The Prime Minister claimed in the academic literature in this area, and it is supported as a House last week that the 50p top rate of tax had raised central and reasonable estimate by Robert Chote, head barely anything at all, yet the HMRC document sets out of the Office for Budget Responsibility and former a figure of more than £1 billion, and the Minister head of the IFS. confirmed in the House on the same day that it had raised £700 million. Should not the Prime Minister Growth Strategy come to the House and set the record straight? 9. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): What Mr Gauke: No, the cut from 50p to 45p will have a assessment he has made of the effect of energy costs on direct cost in reduced income tax of about £100 million. the Government’s growth strategy. [104798] As it happens, the indirect benefit of additional indirect taxes is likely to exceed that number. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith): Energy costs have an impact on the economy. The plan for growth in the autumn statement and the Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): It is important to national infrastructure plan announced a programme remember, though, that for 12 out of the 13 years that of more than 250 economic reforms and investment in they were in government, the Opposition thought it infrastructure, with action in the energy sector, including appropriate to have a top rate of tax at 40p. Is not the electricity market reform. The Government are focused important thing the yield that is raised by the top rate of on ensuring that the UK can deliver the investment it tax, not having a tax rate that is punitive just for the needs to provide a secure, affordable and decarbonised sake of having punitive taxes? energy sector.

Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is right. The Opposition David Mowat: The Minister will be aware that gas is had the 50p in place for only 36 days of the 13 years that an important feedstock in many industrial processes. As they were in power. If a tax is judged on how much of this morning, the price of gas in the US was four revenue it raised, the 50p rate was a failure. times less than it was in the UK and Europe, which is driving GDP and reducing fuel poverty. Is she willing to speak with her colleagues in the Department of Energy 22. [104811] Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Following on from the question from my hon. Friend and Climate Change to ensure that we can emulate the and namesake the Member for Livingston (Graeme US by driving GDP and also reduce carbon emissions? Morrice), we are aware that Treasury data published last week gave details of the levels of tax avoidance Miss Smith: Gas prices in Europe and Asia are higher among top-rate taxpayers, but can the Minister confirm than those in the US, which commentators have attributed that someone earning £1 million a year will benefit to mainly to the impact of the large-scale development of the tune of £40,000 a year from these taxes? shale gas in the US. The Government are examining the potential barriers to investment in gas-fired electricity generation in the UK and the role gas can play in Mr Gauke: The point is that the assessment made by delivering a secure and affordable low-carbon electricity HMRC, supported by the assessment of the Office for supply. That would include examining the potential role Budget Responsibility, is that the 50p rate failed to raise of shale gas in the UK. The Government, including the the revenue that was anticipated. It failed to raise the Treasury, DECC and other Departments, are working revenue that we needed. Instead, we are taking measures together and will shortly issue a call for evidence to that will succeed in getting money out of the wealthiest, inform our strategy for gas generation, which we will not failing. publish in the autumn. 801 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 802

Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Energy prices and The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David uncertainty surrounding the support for low-carbon Gauke): The Government have proposed a new definition energy, alongside uncertainty about electricity market of a zero-rated caravan, based on whether it has been reform, are causing some companies to reassess their designed and constructed for residential purposes. To business plans in this country. Can the Minister assure achieve that, we have proposed a test, based on British us that the Chancellor and the Treasury will support Standard 3632, indicating that the caravan has been market reform in the next Session of this Parliament designed for continuous, all-year-round occupation. We and ensure that the subsidies are in place to get the jobs are consulting on whether additional criteria should be and prosperity that the country needs? added to ensure that the zero rate applies only to caravans intended for residential use, although I know Miss Smith: The Treasury supports electricity market that my hon. Friend argues that such additional criteria reform, as I think the hon. Gentleman knows. He will would not be desirable. also know that we have also laid out our support for energy-intensive industries. I have no doubt that he will Gordon Henderson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend be able to direct questions about programming to the for his answer, which demonstrates clearly the need for Leader of the House. further consultation. There are 45 holiday caravan parks in Sittingbourne and Sheppey which will be hard hit by Tax Collection the imposition of VAT on static caravans. Will he listen carefully and sympathetically to representations from 10. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): What steps he the holiday industry before making a final decision? plans to take to ensure taxes owed are duly collected. [104799] Mr Gauke: I can assure my hon. Friend that we will listen carefully and sympathetically to the arguments The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark that are put to us. He, indeed, has already made strong Hoban): HMRC has managed both to reduce debt representations on this point, and we have of course levels and to help businesses through difficult economic extended the consultation period to 18 May, as the times. It offers help to businesses that are in genuine Chief Secretary to the Treasury pointed out earlier. difficulty, including through time-to-pay arrangements. Where appropriate, it is taking faster and firmer action Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): against those who fail to engage with it. The amount of Can the Minister explain to my constituents why VAT customer debt owed to the Exchequer decreased by about on ski lifts in the Chief Secretary to the Treasury’s £2.4 billion between February 2011 and February 2012. constituency is being reduced, but in my constituency thousands of people are going to lose their jobs with the Andrew George: I am grateful to the Minister for that implementation of the Government’s plans to increase answer and I must congratulate the Government on VAT on static caravans? their plans to close loopholes, particularly for the super-rich, including through the gift aid system. Will he ensure Mr Gauke: VAT is chargeable on mobile caravans, that the Government do not weaken their resolve in that camper vans, narrowboats, beach huts and tents, and regard, and ensure that gift aid genuinely goes to support we are seeking greater consistency in the area. charitable activities? With regard to ski lifts and other forms of cable-based transport, there is a reduced rate in France, Germany, Mr Hoban: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that Austria and Italy, and most areas of public transport support. He is absolutely right. I think that it is unfair are zero-rated. that reliefs can be used without limit to reduce tax liabilities so that some taxpayers with very high incomes Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): I thank the have very low tax rates, even below the basic rate. Minister for agreeing to extend the period of consultation. During the consultation, however, will he not only 19. [104808] Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Why has reflect on the scope of VAT, but give some thought to not the Exchequer Secretary given Members of Parliament, the many thousands of people throughout the country or even the House of Commons Library, copies of the who could lose their jobs if the proposals are implemented figures he released to the press last week suggesting that as originally announced? Will he give some thought to 330 millionaires are paying less than 10% tax, which he them before he decides whether to phase, delay, amend connected directly to charitable giving? Will he make or withdraw these plans? those figures available to Members through the Library?

Mr Hoban: Well, the hon. Lady makes an important Mr Gauke: Of course, we will listen to the representations point about the availability of that information. It was that are made, and my right hon. Friend has made released into the public domain last week, and I will representations to me on behalf of his constituents. We ensure that the appropriate figures are laid in the Library. are seeking to have a fairer VAT system, but of course we want to listen to those concerns that are raised about Caravans (VAT) the implementation of these matters.

11. Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) Euro Preparations Unit (Con): Whether caravans designed and constructed for continuous occupation will remain zero-rated for VAT 12. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Whether he purposes under his proposals when used as holiday plans to re-establish the euro preparations unit within homes. [104800] his Department. [104801] 803 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 804

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): with nine out of 10 families being eligible. Six out of My hon. Friend asks whether we plan to re-establish the 10 families will still be eligible for tax credits after our euro preparations unit in the Treasury, and the answer reforms. is no we do not. Tax Incremental Finance Scheme Bob Blackman: I am delighted that we, unlike the Labour party, are committed not to join that foreign 14. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): By currency, which is failing at the present time. No doubt what means his Department determined which core my right hon. Friend, before he became Chancellor, cities would participate in the tax incremental finance calculated the cost of the unit. How many police, doctors scheme; and if he will make a statement. [104803] or nurses could we employ for the money that was wasted? The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): The main tax increment financing scheme will be available Mr Osborne: I only have the figures for the Treasury, to all local authorities in England from April 2013 as but of course other Departments were also embarked part of the business rates retention scheme. We will set on that Labour scheme. The Treasury spent £5 million out more details on how it will work shortly. A second on the civil servants required for the euro preparations pot of longer-term funding will be allocated to the core unit, and that for example would pay for 17 nurses and cities—the eight largest cities outside London—on a five consultants. I guess, given that the Labour leader is competitive basis. We will invite applications from those committed to joining the euro, the unit would be cities for that pot soon. re-established. Mr Cunningham: Why was Coventry left out of the Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): The Chancellor eight core cities, against the promise of the Deputy will have seen that the euro fell significantly deeper into Prime Minister in 2010? Does the Chief Secretary realise crisis yesterday. Is the Treasury making contingency that that will have a bearing on the Friargate scheme in plans for the abandonment of the euro and the creation Coventry, which will employ a lot of people when it is of national currencies? finished?

Mr Osborne: As I have said previously in the House, Danny Alexander: The eight core cities are a well- the Treasury does make contingency plans for whatever established group that have a proven role in driving the world economy and, indeed, the European economy economic growth in England. As I said, the main tax throw at it, but I will not spell them out in detail. increment financing scheme will be available to all local authorities in England, including that of the hon. Gentleman, from 2013. We will set out the details of Budget Changes that shortly as part of the business rates retention scheme. Other pools of funding, such as the Growing Places 13. Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/ fund, may be able to help with the scheme that he Co-op): How many families in (a) the UK and (b) mentioned. The local enterprise partnership allocates Liverpool, Riverside constituency receiving child tax those funds. credits will be economically disadvantaged by the changes introduced in the Budget. [104802] Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. If the city pilots The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe are successful, will he consider extending this method of Smith): Data limitations mean that we cannot assess financing to all county authorities? impacts at a constituency level, but, taking into account the Budget’s unprecedented £1,100 increase in the personal Danny Alexander: Tax increment financing has great tax allowance and the other measures that the Treasury potential in helping local areas to develop infrastructure can robustly model by household, I note that more than projects and supporting economic growth across the half of households entitled to child tax credits are country. As I said to the hon. Member for Coventry better off and will gain on average £175 per year in South (Mr Cunningham), the main tax increment financing 2013-14. There are less than half as many losers as scheme will be available to all local authorities in England winners, and their average loss is more than four times from April 2013. That will apply to the kind of local smaller, at £40 per year. authorities that my hon. Friend described.

Mrs Ellman: I thank the Minister for her answer, but Working Tax Credit more than 825 households in Liverpool, Riverside will lose all their child tax credit or working tax credit. How 15. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): can it be fair to penalise hard-pressed families when What assessment he has made of the effect of changes millionaires are gaining £40,000 from the very same to working tax credit on couples in households where Budget? one person is retired. [104804]

Miss Smith: The top 20% of earners in this country The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe continue to make the biggest contribution to reducing Smith): Working tax credit is a payment for working the deficit, as has to be the case. The hon. Lady knows households that was introduced by the previous as well as anybody in the House that under the previous Government to improve work incentives. Retirement is Government, spending on tax credits was out of control, not recognised in the tax credit system. However, there 805 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 806 are separate eligibility rules for those over 60, and a The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David level of income for those in retirement is guaranteed by Gauke): The 50% rate raised a fraction of what was pension credit. expected, which is why we are reducing it to 45% from April 2013. Maintaining the 50% rate would accrue an Katy Clark: My constituent, Mrs Orr, is losing £290 a extra £50 million on top of what is expected in 2013-14, month as a result of the tax credit changes. She lives rising to £100 million a year once the impact on self- with her husband, who is retired, and her 13-year-old assessment receipts is included. However, any additional daughter. She works for 20 hours a week at Crosshouse yield could be offset by reduced indirect tax revenues, hospital and has tried to increase her contractual hours, and as such it may raise nothing relative to the 45% rate. but has been unable to do so. She works any overtime that is available. How do you suggest that she makes Kerry McCarthy: I think the Minister has somewhat ends meet? deliberately obfuscated matters. What I wanted was a figure. It has been estimated that the 50p tax rate could have raised £3 billion in future years when there was not Mr Speaker: I do not, but the Minister might. a forestalling effect. Have not the Government made a deliberate decision that they want tax cuts for millionaires Miss Smith: I thank the hon. Lady for raising that as opposed to money being put back into the pockets of example in which the couple’s ages are more distant hard-working people? from each other than is the norm. She makes an interesting point. However, as I said in my initial answer, there are Mr Gauke: It is worth pointing out that this £3 billion arrangements for those over 60 and for those in retirement figure that the shadow Chancellor and others recite in the tax credit system, the pensions system and other suggests an entirely static process. Nobody believes that benefit systems. As I have said in previous Question a 50p rate has no behavioural impact whatever, but that Times, the economy is moving, there are work vacancies is the Labour party’s ridiculous position. That was not out there and we believe that the changes to working tax its position when in government, and it is not a position credit are fair. For example, they place couples on a par that any credible economist would support. with lone parents. Topical Questions Small Businesses T1. [104814] Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): If he will 16. Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): What steps make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. he is taking to increase the availability of credit to The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): small businesses. [104805] The core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure the stability of the economy, promote growth and employment, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark reform banking and manage the public finances so that Hoban): The Government have announced a range of Britain lives within her means. initiatives to help small businesses access finance from a wide range of sources, including the national loan guarantee Jane Ellison: What steps is my right hon. Friend scheme and the business finance partnership. taking to support successful small businesses that wish to take advantage of export opportunities? Andrew Bingham: I thank my hon. Friend for that answer and welcome the Government’s efforts on this Mr Osborne: We want to get small businesses exporting matter. Does he agree that in constituencies such as more, and UK small businesses have traditionally not High Peak, micro-businesses are still having difficulties exported as much as, for example, continental European finding loans, despite the assurances of the banks that small businesses. That is why UK Trade & Investment, they are open for business? What words of support and under Lord Green, has set the specific ambition of advice can he offer the small, independent business doubling the number of small businesses helped by the owners upon whom the recovery depends to such a Government. We want small businesses to be ambitious great extent? and look to overseas markets.

Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend raises an important Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): The point, and having visited his constituency, I know it is Chancellor has had a difficult few weeks since the very rural. He might encourage businesses in his Budget. To be told by his own side that he is an constituency to apply for the rural economy grant scheme, out-of-touch posh boy who does not know the price of which is worth £60 million and is open to businesses milk must be particularly hard to take. I will ask him operating in rural areas in certain markets, including today not about the price of milk but—[Interruption.] agri-foods, tourism and digital media technology. I would encourage them to do so. Mr Speaker: Order. Let me say once and for all to the junior Whip, sitting next to a senior Whip: be quiet, do not heckle, and if you cannot keep quiet, leave the Income Tax Chamber. Make a habit of that.

18. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What estimate Ed Balls: Shall I start again at the beginning of the he has made of the revenue which would accrue to the question? I am going to ask the Chancellor today not Exchequer from maintaining the additional rate of income about the price of milk but about a price that he surely tax at 50 per cent in 2013-14. [104807] must have considered at Budget time. I will ask him a 807 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 808 specific question. What is—[Interruption.] I am going an empty barn for the same price if it is VAT-able at to ask the Chancellor a specific question that he must 20%. Is that or is that not a perverse incentive to have considered at Budget time. What is the price of a demolish empty listed buildings? litre of unleaded petrol at the pumps today, and what was it on Budget day a year ago? The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke): As financial advice, I am not sure it is necessarily Mr Osborne: Of course, the price of petrol today is wise to dismantle and then rebuild a listed building to about £1.40 a litre. It was less a year ago, but the make a saving, but there is an anomaly in the tax international oil price has gone up since—I think it is system: people pay VAT for a repair on a listed building, 10% higher than it was last year. That is why we have but they do not pay VAT for an alteration. That does cancelled some of the fuel duty increases that the right not seem right. hon. Gentleman voted for when he was in government, cut fuel duty and got rid of the fuel escalator that he T7. [104820] Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): supported in government. What action have the Government taken to prevent multinationals from funnelling their profits into tax Ed Balls: That is an answer that we will hang around havens, as some do, rather than paying their taxes to the Chancellor’s neck for the next four months. He has the developing countries where they have subsidiaries? admitted that the price of petrol is higher today than a year ago, when he decided it was too high for petrol Mr Gauke: The Government have taken great action duty to go up. Let me ask him a second question. His to increase tax transparency, and on ensuring that there duty increase is due in August. If the price of petrol is is more of an exchange of information between jurisdictions. still higher than the £1.33 a litre price of a year ago, will We have taken action to prevent Switzerland, for example, he commit now not to go ahead with the duty rise, or is being used a place to facilitate tax evasion. In addition, the truth that he cut taxes for millionaires but does not Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs provides considerable understand about family budgets? Out of touch, out of support to developing countries to improve their capability friends and way, way out of his depth. and capacity to collect tax revenues, which are very important. Mr Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman says it is my duty increase, but we are talking about his duty increase, T4. [104817] Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): which was set out in the March Budget before the last Ramtech Electronics is a small business in my constituency general election, which he voted for and helped to write. that supplies wireless products to the static caravan industry. Tony Strickland, national key account manager, says that the effect of the Government’s decision to put Ed Balls: You are the Chancellor. VAT on caravans will be “catastrophic” for the industry and that it will Mr Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman says I am the “undoubtedly result in job losses.” Chancellor, and he is right. Since inheriting those fuel Why does the Chancellor think that a tax cut for duty plans from him, I have cut fuel duty, cancelled the millionaires is more important than my constituents’ fuel duty increases that he voted for and got off the fuel jobs? duty escalator that he supported. That is what I have done to ensure that families are better able to cope with Mr Gauke: It is important to point out that there is the economic mess he presided over when he was in the already VAT on mobile caravans, camper vans, narrowboats Treasury. and a range of products. We are listening to the concerns of businesses and tourists to ensure that we can implement T2. [104815] Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I the measure fairly. welcome the Financial Services Bill, which we debated yesterday. It is a significant step towards re-instilling T8. [104821] Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): confidence in the financial services industry, but does In 2005, Germany exempted businesses with fewer than the Minister accept that regulators, including the current 10 workers from unfair dismissal regulations and created Financial Services Authority, have an obligation to flexible mini and midi-jobs. Since that date, youth work with other regulatory bodies that go beyond their unemployment in Germany has halved. What steps are competence to bring about negotiated settlements when the Government taking to improve flexibility and to get the product is far more complicated than is covered by more young people into jobs? their jurisdiction, such as in the Arch Cru affair? Mr George Osborne: We need to reform the labour The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark market, which is why, as my hon. Friend will know, we Hoban): My hon. Friend raises an important question. have this month extended the qualifying period for There are a number of cases—Arch Cru is one of unfair dismissal cases from one to two years. That has them—in which different parties are in different jurisdictions. been welcomed and will encourage people to take on It is important that regulators work together, along new employees. We also have a call for evidence on with the parties involved, to ensure that a good deal is compensated no-fault dismissal. I have no doubt that put in place to help investors. she will make a submission to that call for evidence.

T3. [104816] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): A listed T5. [104818] Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): In building that is dismantled and rebuilt as a new dwelling view of earlier answers on corporation tax, will the will be zero rated, but people will not be able to renovate Chancellor tell the House how many FTSE 100 companies 809 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 810 paid full corporation tax in the last available tax year? It Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Rather would be understandable if he does not have the figure than giving £10 billion to the IMF for the European now, but will he place it in the Library of the House for bail-out fund, would it not be better to invest that hon. Members? money in a growth strategy in places such as Swansea to generate jobs and growth, and avoid the situation of the Mr Osborne: As the hon. Gentleman knows, because Chief Secretary suddenly announcing a further 5% cut he is an experienced Member and sits on the Treasury in departmental spending, allegedly for a rainy day? Committee, there is a very important principle of taxpayer confidentiality, so I am not shown the individual tax Mr Osborne: The political opportunism and empty returns of businesses or indeed individuals. We have opposition of the Labour party was brutally exposed recently published data on the average tax rate that yesterday when the shadow Chancellor opposed the people on the highest incomes were paying under the contribution to the IMF and the right hon. Member for last Labour Government, and we can see that it was very Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), a former Chancellor much lower than Treasury Ministers were telling us. of the Exchequer and one of the few people to emerge with real credit from the last Government, completely contradicted him. Not only are the Opposition not T9. [104822] Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Can taken seriously at home, they are not taken seriously the Chancellor tell me how many of my constituents abroad either. will benefit from the lifting of the personal tax threshold? George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Will the Chancellor join me in welcoming the announcement by The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): GlaxoSmithKline of a £0.5 billion investment in advanced Information is not available at constituency level, but I manufacturing in the north of England? Taken together can confirm that for the east midlands government with the £800 million investment by Tata in Wales and region 1.7 million people will benefit in 2013-14 from the IMF’s upgrade of our growth forecast by nearly the largest ever increase in the personal allowance, 20%, does this not suggest that the Budget for business which was announced in the Budget. Some 152,000 is working? people will have been taken out of tax altogether in the east midlands by the policies of this Government. Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is right to point to the GSK investment. The chief executive of GSK explicitly T6. [104819] Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It has credited the falls in corporation tax and the patent box been reported in the papers that the Chancellor is for that decision. We have also had the investment from prepared to meet with charities so that he can explain Jaguar Land Rover in the west midlands, the great news his tax hike and tell them how he can get it right in the of Nissan’s investment in Sunderland and steel-making future. For the sake of consistency, will he also meet has returned to Redcar. with the purveyors of pasties, church leaders and caravan operators and manufacturers so that he can tell them how he will get it right in the future and they can Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) tell him to drop these VAT hikes? (Lab): International connectivity is crucial to business in the north-east, and Newcastle international airport provides a vital link. Will the Government therefore Mr George Osborne: What I find extraordinary is support calls from regional airports for a congestion that we have a Labour MP supporting the idea that the charge to be applied to air passenger duty to ensure the very wealthiest people in this country pay no income future viability not only of jobs and tourist income, but tax. That is an extraordinary thing for a Labour MP to of international trade routes? advocate. As I say, we have made reforms in the Budget to improve the tax system and to ensure that people at The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe the very top of the income scale pay some income tax. Smith): As briefly discussed during last week’s debate on the Finance Bill, the Government are undertaking T10. [104823] Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): various pieces of work on aviation strategy and, more The Thatcher Governments unleashed a decade or more recently, received representations on regional congestion of enterprise in this country. Youngentrepreneurs today charges and other things during the APD consultation. are still key to a private sector-led recovery, but only I can confirm to the hon. Lady that, although I have not 3% of 18 to 24-year-olds set up their own business. Will spoken to her personally about the matter, I am happy the Chancellor consider further support for the new to meet her, her colleagues and representatives of those enterprise allowance and other schemes to increase airports to hear more evidence of what they believe assistance to young entrepreneurs? might occur if we set different tax rates.

Mr Osborne: The new enterprise allowance has been Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): I am sure we introduced and already some 10,000 people are developing have all received letters from constituents over the years their own business ideas using the incentive of the saying that they did not want their taxes spent on one allowance. As I set out in the Budget, we are considering thing and preferred them to be spent on something else. the case for enterprise loans. The Government provide a It is right in principle, therefore, that the Government loan for people going to university, but what about a cap the ability of the super-rich to allocate taxes to loan for people who want to start their own business? charities of their choice. Will my right hon. Friend the We will come to the House with ideas on that subject Chancellor acknowledge, however, that universities and later this year. medical research charities have always depended on 811 Oral Answers24 APRIL 2012 Oral Answers 812 philanthropic support? In reviewing the cap on tax meet the hon. Lady to discuss the help they could relief, will he ensure that those institutions’ interests are provide to her constituents. This Government’s actions—the safeguarded? youth contract, in particular—will be of significant importance to many young people in her constituency. Mr Gauke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his In particular, there are the additional jobs subsidies support for the policy. As we said at the time of the available to businesses to take on young unemployed Budget and in the Budget document, we are looking to people in her constituency. I hope she will welcome that explore with charities dependent on large donations and promote it to businesses in her area. how this can be implemented without it having a major impact on them. Of course, we will take into account Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): the concerns of universities and others. Tomorrow, the European Commission will publish its proposed 2013 budget. Will Her Majesty’s Government Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Why does the do everything they can to ensure that there is no increase Chancellor think his Budget is now widely seen as a in that budget? More importantly, will they use their complete and utter shambles? veto on the multi-annual framework to ensure that there is no increase? Mr George Osborne: We cut business tax to make this Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend makes an important country more competitive and to create jobs; we delivered point. At a time when Governments across Europe are an income tax cut for 24 million working people; we making difficult decisions to curb spending, it is completely took 2 million low-paid people out of tax altogether; unacceptable for the Commission to propose an inflation- and, above all, we continue to clear up the economic busting increase in its budget and the medium-term mess left to us by the Labour party. financial framework. The Government will work with their allies to tackle those issues. Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): What will we get for the £64 billion extra spending this year compared Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): In normal times, with the last year under Labour? the mortgage standard variable rate rises or falls as the base rate goes up or down, but we are aware that some Mr Osborne: The plans we set out for public expenditure banks—not all—are increasing their standard variable were measured, but they involved reducing the deficit. rates now, while the Bank base rate remains near the That has been very important. The public finance figures, zero-bound. Will the Chancellor take this opportunity published today, show that we are on track to meet our to fire a warning shot across the bows of some of those deficit targets. At the same time, we have found resources banks not to increase their standard variable rates and for things such as extra nursery education for disadvantaged so put more pain on to people likely to have had pay youngsters, the pupil premium and all sorts of other cuts and wage freezes over the past two or three years? things that support our objectives of a fairer and more balanced economy. [Interruption.] Mr Hoban: It is important that we stick to the fiscal course to ensure that UK interest rates remain low for Mr Speaker: There is plenty of scope for a debate, I as long as possible. However, many banks face increased think. funding costs, partly because of the turbulence in the eurozone and partly because there is more competition Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): for savings on the high street, and that works its way West Dunbartonshire is the most difficult local authority through to mortgage rates. It is important that banks area in the whole of the UK in which to find a job, yet provide the help they can to their customers to ensure the Scottish National party Government have refused they have the support necessary to deal with higher us any help and refused to meet me. Have this Government mortgage interest rates. also abandoned West Dunbartonshire or can we expect Several hon. Members rose— help to do one thing—to create jobs? Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry. Treasury questions Danny Alexander: It is disappointing to hear that have long been an appealing fixture to colleagues, but members of the Scottish Government have refused to demand has exceeded supply and we must now move on. 813 24 APRIL 2012 Stephen Lawrence 814

Stephen Lawrence that she shared their concerns. If that is the case, can we take it that the Minister accepts that there is evidence of police corruption that is worthy of further inquiry? 3.34 pm There is also speculation that one of the Secretary of Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): (Urgent Question): To State’s reasons for not setting up an inquiry is cost, and ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if it has been stated that there could be swifter and cheaper she will make a statement on whether she will establish ways of dealing with the matter. According to reports, a public inquiry into recent allegations that corruption the police have taken six weeks and still cannot confirm within the Metropolitan police force interfered with the whether all the relevant documents relating to Operation investigation into the murder of Stephen Lawrence. Russell were sent to the inquiry. In the light of that, will the Minister tell us what constitutes “swift” in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the context of an inquiry? We cannot have any more bluster Home Department (James Brokenshire): May I first and delay. There has been far too much since the apologise to the House for the absence of my right hon. moment Stephen Lawrence was murdered. Friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, Stephen’s family are asking for an inquiry into this who is overseas on Government business? matter. Will the Minister now answer my questions? It is a matter of deep regret that it took 19 years to Does he accept that only an independent, public inquiry achieve convictions for the murder of Stephen Lawrence. will satisfy public concerns over the new allegations? In the years since he was murdered, the Lawrence Does he also accept that, as there has already been too family fought tirelessly for justice and, without their much delay, such an inquiry should be expedited as efforts, it is unlikely that either Gary Dobson or David quickly as possible, either by reconvening the Macpherson Norris would have been convicted. I hope that the inquiry or by setting up a new inquiry team to follow on verdicts in January will finally have delivered some with its work? comfort to the Lawrence family. Allegations of corruption in the murder investigation James Brokenshire: I thank the hon. Gentleman for have been looked at on two previous occasions. They his questions and underline the seriousness we attach to were examined by the Macpherson inquiry, which concluded the current allegations. The Home Secretary is looking that very closely at this matter, but wishes the Metropolitan “no collusion or corruption is proved to have infected the investigation police’s internal review into the current allegations to of Stephen Lawrence’s murder.” conclude to inform her determination of what next The allegations were also looked at by the Independent steps are appropriate. I agree with the hon. Gentleman Police Complaints Commission in 2006, which again that those investigations should be carried out by the was unable to find any corruption in the original murder Metropolitan police swiftly in order to inform further investigation. Following the convictions of Gary Dobson consideration of whether a public inquiry is or is not and David Norris, further allegations of corruption appropriate. have come to light. As a result, the solicitor acting on I would like to reassure the hon. Gentleman that this behalf of Mrs Lawrence has written to my right hon. matter will be looked at speedily and closely by the Friend the Home Secretary asking her to set up a public Home Secretary, who will continue to have discussions inquiry. with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. It is essential Allegations of police corruption must always be taken to have trust and confidence in the policing provided seriously and investigated thoroughly. It is essential that within London and in the rest of the country. I say to we ensure that the actions and behaviours of any corrupt the hon. Gentleman that the Home Office has not police officers do not undermine public confidence in sought in any way to brief this out, and that any the police’s ability to respond to, investigate and fight decisions made by the Home Secretary should be reported crime. The Metropolitan police are currently carrying to this House first. I can assure him that this matter will out an internal review into these corruption allegations be dealt with entirely appropriately to provide the necessary and we await their findings. I would like to reassure reassurance on this significant matter—to him, to his Members of the House that my right hon. Friend is constituents and to the Lawrence family. treating these issues with the utmost seriousness. She is currently considering her decision and has offered to meet Doreen Lawrence to discuss the issues further. My Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I hope right hon. Friend will keep the House updated. that my hon. Friend will, in time, be able to give fuller replies to the questions put by the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), to whom I pay tribute, along Clive Efford: I welcome the Minister’s statement, as with John Austin, for calling for the original inquiry. far as it goes. The murder of Stephen Lawrence, and his family’s campaign for justice, led to the Macpherson I suggest that the Home Secretary or my hon. Friend inquiry, which was a landmark for policing in this consult the original commission—including John Sentamu, country. One of Macpherson’s conclusions that remains now Archbishop of York, and Dr Richard Stone—and in doubt relates to whether police corruption hampered acknowledge that, although we recognise that possible the inquiry into Stephen’s murder. We have now seen criminal proceedings may follow in this case, it was fresh evidence that might call that conclusion into question. possible for criminal convictions to take place after the Over the past two months, I have tabled questions on original Macpherson inquiry. two occasions but have been fobbed off with holding We all know that most police want to nick criminals answers. Yesterday, however, reports in the press that and bring them to justice, and that most police officers had clearly been sanctioned by the Home Office suggested are not racist by institutional or any other means, but that the Home Secretary had told the Lawrence family those who are need to discover that the time has gone 815 Stephen Lawrence24 APRIL 2012 Stephen Lawrence 816 when the colour of someone’s skin should be viewed as He added: more important than the colour of their eyes or their “ You cannot avoid that duty. Nor can I.″ hair. He also said: “I will not stand for any racism or racists in the Met.” James Brokenshire: I absolutely agree with my hon. I entirely endorse that message. Friend’s last comment: racism has no part and no place in the policing of our country. I pay tribute to the Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) important steps that the Metropolitan Police Commissioner (Lab): I welcome the urgent question from my hon. has taken in underlining that message and to some of Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), and also the actions that he is already taking to ensure that that his persistent campaigning and determination to secure message on policing in London is sent out loud and justice for Stephen Lawrence on behalf of his family. clear, including the introduction of CCTV cameras into Stephen Lawrence was murdered in an unprovoked some vehicles to provide greater transparency and racist attack 19 years ago on Sunday. The country was accountability. These are issues that the Home Secretary shocked both by the murder and by the failure of the is taking into careful consideration. As I said, she initial investigation to bring Stephen’s murderers to wishes the response of the current corruption investigations justice. It is only the determination and dignity of the conducted by the Metropolitan police to be reported to Lawrence family that has persisted, and has led to the her; she will then be able to determine the appropriate two recent convictions. next steps in that regard. Two new allegations of police corruption in the original Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The Minister has inquiry have been reported in the media. Those allegations confirmed the evidence given by the Home Secretary to are very serious. The first is that information on corruption the Select Committee on Home Affairs this morning on was available, but was not passed on to the Macpherson this very point. Doreen Lawrence has written to me and inquiry. The second is that additional witness testimony other members of the Committee about the issue of an about corruption in the original inquiry is now available, inquiry. What concerns me is the fact that the inquiry and must be looked at afresh. conducted by the Metropolitan police is an internal I urge the Home Secretary to go further than simply one. In order to satisfy the public and all those Members organising an internal Met review. The new information who have been aware of this issue over a long period, should be referred to the Independent Police Complaints would it not be better if this were conducted not by an Commission immediately so that it can pursue a full external force, but by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of criminal investigation of the allegations. I also support constabulary, so that the Lawrence family can feel that a the call by Doreen Lawrence, and by my hon. Friend, proper look has been taken before the issue of a public for a public inquiry, perhaps through a reconvening of inquiry can be decided on? the Macpherson inquiry. We need to know not simply whether criminal corruption was involved, but whether James Brokenshire: The appropriate course of action information was withheld from the original inquiry and is for the Metropolitan police to conclude its current whether that has implications for the inquiry’s conclusions. investigations appropriately, but as speedily as is practicable. A public inquiry could also take the opportunity to Following the receipt of that report, the Home Secretary review the progress that has been made in implementing will determine what further action may be appropriate the 70 recommendations of the Macpherson report. to give necessary reassurance about the process to the There have been progress and change over the last family and to the community. My right hon. Friend will decade, but people are still rightly concerned about the then consider whether a public inquiry is or is not recent serious allegations of racism against individual appropriate in the light of the responses she receives officers, which are now being investigated. The Minister from the Metropolitan police. quoted the new commissioner, who has rightly made clear his determination that there should be zero tolerance Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): The whiff of of racism in the Met and, of course, any force. In support corruption has long hung over the investigation into of his work, a new inquiry could review the progress Stephen Lawrence’s murder, and I hope very much that, that has been made and could also make further as a result of these inquiries, the truth about just how recommendations. incompetently it was conducted will finally emerge. Confidence in the police must be complete, and the Does my hon. Friend agree, however, that having faced mistakes of the past cannot be left to fester. We owe it the charge of institutional racism, the Metropolitan to Stephen’s memory to ensure that these allegations are police have risen to the challenge and have left no stone investigated in full now. unturned in trying to bring the killers finally to justice, and does he share my confidence that this inquiry will James Brokenshire: I welcome the shadow Home be expedited with accuracy? Secretary’s recognition of some of the important steps that have been taken since the initial Macpherson inquiry. James Brokenshire: I think we should recognise the I think it essential for us to emphasise that racism has steps that have been taken since the Macpherson inquiry no place or part in modern policing, and to be robust in to try to root out racism in the Metropolitan police and, confronting issues of corruption. indeed, in other police forces, but there is clearly more It is notable that some of the more recent claims, to be done. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner cases and allegations involving racism in the police have said recently: come from within the force itself. That, I think, underlines “We have a duty to challenge or report any behaviour by the fact that the police are taking these issues much colleagues which is less than the high standard demanded by the more seriously, and are ensuring that officers who engage service and Londoners themselves”. in unacceptable behaviour are dealt with appropriately. 817 Stephen Lawrence24 APRIL 2012 Stephen Lawrence 818

[James Brokenshire] and proper for the Home Secretary to look at that and consider whether a public inquiry is or is not required to The right hon. Lady has identified some of the serious provide the necessary reassurance to the public. new allegations made about the original Macpherson inquiry and also about the availability of information Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): We or otherwise. It is precisely those matters that the must listen to the Lawrence family. They have lived with Metropolitan police are examining. The Home Secretary the tragic death of their son and with police incompetence is awaiting their response before considering any appropriate for nearly 20 years. Will the Minister comment on next steps and whether a public inquiry is needed to give whether a public inquiry might also need to consider the necessary reassurance to the Lawrence family, the earlier cases of police corruption, such as that involving community and the public. It is therefore appropriate Daniel Morgan? that the investigation be undertaken appropriately, but also with due speed, to ensure that we can take the James Brokenshire: I certainly pay tribute to the work necessary action and that the necessary support and of the Lawrence family. As I think I said in my opening safeguards are put in place. We therefore look forward response, I am sure that if it were not for their tireless to receiving that report from the Metropolitan police, fight for justice, we would not have seen the convictions so that the Home Secretary can then determine what is that we have. I do not want to speculate on what the appropriate in the context of the next steps. response may be once we see the outcome of the response from the Metropolitan Police Service. However, let me Several hon. Members rose— say to my right hon. Friend that the Government take the issue of corruption in the police service extremely Mr Speaker: Order. I am keen to accommodate the seriously. That is why we have established the Leveson interest of colleagues, but doing so requires brevity, inquiry, why the Home Secretary commissioned the both in questions and in answers. Independent Police Complaints Commission to provide a report on corruption in the police service, and why she Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Does my hon. commissioned Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary Friend agree that it is vital for public confidence in the to consider instances of undue influence, inappropriate Metropolitan police that any instances of racist behaviour arrangements and other abuses of power in police by individuals in the organisation should be dealt with relationships. and be seen to be dealt with? Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Will the Minister James Brokenshire: I absolutely agree, which is why update the House on investigations involving the other the cases are being considered by the Metropolitan defendants in the original trial? Will he also say why the police. Also, there are separate, ongoing investigations Home Secretary has such confidence in an internal into other allegations by the Independent Police Complaints review given all that has happened in the Met in relation Commission. However, it is important that we take to allegations of corruption, and why in this case it is broader steps to deal with issues of corruption. The not thought that the IPCC should be engaged in any Government have set in train a number of inquiries and review? reports, and we shall be following through on that, underlining the point that if such incidents are not dealt James Brokenshire: In response to the right hon. with appropriately, they undermine the very confidence Gentleman’s first question, what I can say is that the in the police service that we all want to enable it to get police have been very clear that investigations in relation on with the job of protecting our communities. to this matter continue, and it is right and proper that all appropriate lines of inquiry are followed through. I Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) say in response to his second question that I think it is (Lab): The Minister will be aware that the circumstances appropriate for the Metropolitan Police Service to be of the death of Stephen Lawrence echo down the years. able to look at this matter and provide a response, and He will know—and I remember—that in the early years then for the Home Secretary to determine what the next after the death, it was impossible to get interest in the steps should be. case, either in this House or in the media. In fact, the then Conservative Government refused an inquiry over Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): The vast majority and over again. Given the history of this case and the of serving Metropolitan police officers abhor racism in slowness of the past Government to act on it, does all its forms, but clearly there are still pockets of concern. the Minister agree that in order to give closure to the What discussions have taken place with the commissioner Lawrence family, affirm the importance of public confidence on protecting whistleblowers who bring such matters to in the police, and say to the wider society, “Racist the attention of senior police officers, because officers violence and collusion with racist violence in these must be protected and feel confident about reporting current, difficult economic circumstances will not be misdeeds? tolerated,” it is important that the coalition Government should bring forward an inquiry in which everybody James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend makes an important can have confidence? point: police officers should be able to air their concerns and be confident that those matters will be dealt with James Brokenshire: I accept the hon. Lady’s general appropriately. A number of recent cases have been points about the need for public assurance. Our judgment brought as a direct consequence of reports being made is that it is appropriate for the Metropolitan police to by police officers. I hope that that will continue and give investigate the current allegations of corruption, and confidence that if matters of this kind are referred, that once that has been provided, it is absolutely right appropriate action will be taken clearly and robustly. 819 Stephen Lawrence24 APRIL 2012 Stephen Lawrence 820

Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): taken. The lead that the Metropolitan Police Commissioner While recognising both the progress that has been made has provided on this in his recent statements should be in the Metropolitan police since the Macpherson inquiry followed through throughout the police service across and the determination of the current commissioner to the country. root out corruption and racism in the Met, as a south-east London MP—whose constituency is very close to that Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Given how of my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive long it took to bring Stephen’s killers to justice, is it not Efford), who raised the urgent question, and in whose important that we get swift answers to these latest constituency Stephen Lawrence was murdered—the allegations in a way that instils public confidence, not Minister will, I am sure, recognise that the legacy of this just for the sake of Stephen’s family, but because of the case has had a corrosive effect on the local community’s urgent need to build confidence in our police among confidence in the integrity of the police, and that nothing black and minority ethnic communities and because a less than a genuinely independent examination of these single allegation of corruption or racism against one latest allegations will suffice. officer undoes all the good work that so many officers do on our streets? James Brokenshire: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his comments, and I am under no illusions James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend has, again, made as to the impact this appalling case has had within the a very important point about the impact that allegations south-east London community, and more broadly, and of corruption have on confidence in our police. This is the need for proper examination. That is what is happening why the Home Secretary takes these current allegations in the current corruption investigation that the Metropolitan extremely seriously. In this broader context, it is also police are undertaking. We judge it to be appropriate why she has set in train a number of steps to provide for that to be followed through, and for the report on assurance on these issues. Obviously relevant inquiries that to go to the Home Secretary and for the Home have been undertaken in respect of corruption to provide Secretary to decide what steps might then be appropriate recommendations so that we can all have that confidence in the light of that report. in our policing. So many good police officers are out there doing a difficult job day in, day out, and it is Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): In my constituency, important that these matters are dealt with appropriately many young people from the black and minority ethnic so that their work is recognised and they can get on with community do not believe the police force is their police their job. force. One of the principal reasons is that they think racism still manifests itself in a minority of police officers. Regardless of the Home Secretary’s deliberations Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Is not the principal and decisions, does the Minister agree that the true cost allegation currently that the Russell report, which that should be paid is for senior police officers to get investigated the behaviour of a key police officer in the hold of these individuals and sack them for gross original matters, was not given to the inquiry members? misconduct? As the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) has pointed out, it is possible to ask current inquiry members whether they got that report. Given James Brokenshire: Any allegations that have been that the allegation is that the Metropolitan police were made should be investigated properly and thoroughly, able to suborn a public inquiry, I am deeply concerned and anyone found to be responsible of wrongdoing at the extent to which the Minister seems to think it is should be dealt with in the firmest and most robust way. all right to leave the timetable in the hands of the police. I think it is appropriate that matters are allowed to be Can he reassure the House on this? investigated, but I do not in any way underestimate the seriousness of the issues at hand, the need for matters to be resolved speedily and the need for the public to have James Brokenshire: I certainly can reassure the hon. the necessary confidence in the police. Lady as to the absolute seriousness with which the Home Secretary takes this matter; I am sure that my Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): May I right hon. Friend will be having further discussions with reinforce the point made by my hon. Friend the Member the Metropolitan Police Commissioner about the timing for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott)? of the investigations, in recognition of the public concern What we do not want is a rerun of what occurred after attached to this. the murder, when all attempts to get an inquiry were dismissed. I was one of those who, along with my hon. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): On a day when Friend, was urging such an inquiry at the time. Was not some parts of the media have not necessarily had the the inquiry set up by my right hon. Friend the Member most cordial of exchanges with politicians, would the for Blackburn (Mr Straw) fully justified? Just imagine Minister like to put on the record, with me, the thanks what the position would have been if it had not been of many hon. Members for the work of the Daily Mail established. I hope the Home Secretary will seriously in campaigning for justice for Stephen Lawrence and consider the latest requests from the family. his family, and trying to stamp out racism?

James Brokenshire: Certainly I recognise the very James Brokenshire: As I said, the tireless work of the important recommendations made as a consequence of Lawrence family in seeking to bring about justice has the Macpherson inquiry. As I have said, the police been extraordinary, and I know that others have campaigned service has taken really important steps since then to tirelessly in support of them. Obviously, convictions deal with racism in the police. The police service is not have been secured and investigations continue in relation institutionally racist, but further steps do need to be to this appalling crime. I very much look forward to the 821 Stephen Lawrence 24 APRIL 2012 822

[James Brokenshire] Points of Order police’s further work in seeking to follow all appropriate 4.7 pm lines of inquiry in their continuing investigations into Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) the Lawrence murder. (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I believe that you have had advance notice of this point. I seek your Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Is not the nub of the guidance on how best to elicit a response from the issue the fact that communities often do not feel that Treasury on a number of questions that I tabled about the police are accountable to them? What measures are the average tax paid at different high income levels. On the Government taking to improve police accountability? 28 February, I tabled three written parliamentary questions to the Treasury, numbers 97755, 97800 and 97801, for James Brokenshire: As my hon. Friend will know, the named day answer on 5 March. I received a holding Government are taking a number of different steps to reply and on 27 March I tabled a further named day create greater professionalism within the police service written question, asking when I would receive a response with the establishment of the new police professional to the previous written questions. On 16 April, I received body to lead work to develop professionalism and set a further holding reply. As the House is shortly to standards for the service. Obviously, we will also look to prorogue and as there is a danger that the questions will the introduction of police and crime commissioners fall if they are not answered before Prorogation, I later this year to provide more direct accountability would appreciate your advice on how I might best between the public and the police and to ensure that the receive a response. Whether it was intentional or accidental, police remain in close connection with the communities this is inexcusable and an insult to democracy and I they seek to serve. hope that you can help me. Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Mr Speaker: Patience is rewarded for the representative point of order and for giving me advance notice of her of Bermondsey and Old Southwark. intention to raise it. Ordinarily, I would say to the hon. Lady or to any other Member who was dissatisfied with Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) an answer that they should consider taking the matter (LD): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Will my hon. up with the Procedure Committee, which monitors such Friend confirm that he has got the message from London matters. In general terms, I stand by that advice. When MPs and from others that although we absolutely applaud the objection of the hon. Member is not to the content the new commissioner’s robust attitude, everybody now of an answer being in some way unsatisfactory or out of wants the new Mayor, whoever that will be, and the kilter with the spirit of what the House expects but commissioner to refer independently for assessment the rather to the fact that there has been no substantive continuing racist allegations as regards the Lawrence reply at all, that is an extremely serious concern. It was case as well as other racist allegations? Does he agree flagged up several times earlier in this Parliament and in that the best thing the Government can do is to ensure the previous Parliament and I hope that the presence of that every one of our 43 police forces in England and the Leader of the House and the Deputy Leader of the Wales better reflects the community it serves, particularly House on the Treasury Bench will suffice to ensure that in the ethnic mix at the highest level? the relevant Ministers are chased with some urgency to provide substantive—not holding—replies to the questions posed by the hon. Lady before the House prorogues, James Brokenshire: My right hon. Friend has highlighted thereby avoiding the need for the hon. Lady to have to the point about the need for the police service to reflect return to the matter in the new Session. the diversity in our communities. Although the proportion of black and minority ethnic officers has more than Sir George Young (North West Hampshire) (Con) doubled since 2000, there is clearly more work to be indicated assent. done, particularly among the more senior ranks. We are examining whether direct entry or quicker progression Mr Speaker: It will not do for Ministers simply to might be able to assist in that regard. I can assure him wait several days or even weeks and then to reply by that these matters are considered with the utmost seriousness saying, “I will reply as soon as possible.” The Leader of by the Home Secretary and by me. Let me make it the House and I share a distaste for that practice. absolutely clear: racism and corruption have absolutely no part to play in our police service. BILL PRESENTED HOUSING (SELECTIVE LICENSING OF PRIVATE LANDLORDS IN EXEMPTED AREAS)BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Graham Jones presented a Bill to give local authorities the power to apply selective licensing conditions to private landlords in exempted areas with social housing stock. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 330). 823 24 APRIL 2012 Food Labelling (Halal and Kosher 824 Meat) Food Labelling (Halal and Kosher Meat) I propose to make labelling of halal and kosher meat compulsory, because as a strong believer in freedom of Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order choice, I think one of the consumer’s fundamental No. 23) rights is to know what they are purchasing. At present, 4.10 pm consumers cannot satisfy their preferences because not all meat products are labelled, so legislation to require Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I beg to move, retailers of meat to label their products is essential to That leave be given to bring in a Bill to introduce compulsory enable consumers to practise their right to make an labelling of halal and kosher meat and products containing halal and kosher meat by retailers at the point of sale; and for connected informed decision. purposes. According to the EU Dialrel project, the exemption I thank the large number of colleagues from both sides for religious slaughter in schedule 12 of the Welfare of of the House who have contacted me to support the Bill. Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations 1995 clearly I am grateful also to organisations such as the Royal states that it applies to people of that religion, not to Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals which everybody. This implies that halal and kosher meat have also given the Bill their support. As I hope hon. should be consumed by those of Muslim and Jewish Members will see, my Bill is supported by colleagues faiths, respectively, because this type of slaughter is not only in the Conservative party, but in the Labour party, specified for their religious needs. This is obviously not the Liberal Democrats and the Democratic Unionist party. the case at present because Muslims make up around As many hon. Members will know, I am a firm 3% of the UK population, yet the Halal Food Authority believer in individual freedom of choice, and with my estimates that halal meat makes up about 25% of the background in customer service and marketing at Asda, meat market. Similarly, it has been estimated that 70% of I believe in particular in consumers’ freedom of choice. the kosher meat was not consumed by the Jewish That is why today I am introducing a Bill to make community. labelling of halal and kosher meat and products containing halal and kosher meat by retailers at the point of sale There have been cases of state schools, hospitals, compulsory. My sole reason for introducing the Bill is pubs, sports arenas, cafes, markets and hotels serving to give consumers more information, so that they can halal meat to customers without their knowledge. In exercise their freedom of choice. fact, many of my hon. Friends may be interested to Current British legislation requires the stunning of know that, according to The Scotsman in November animals before slaughter, with religious exemptions for 2010, halal meat has even been served without labelling halal and kosher meat for communities whose religious in House of Commons canteen. To my dismay as a traditions sometimes require slaughter without stunning. former retailer, I recently learned that Britain’s largest The religious exemption dates back to the Slaughter of supermarket chains, including Marks and Spencer, Animals Act 1928, which applied to Scotland, and the Sainsbury’s and Tesco, are selling halal meat without Slaughter of Animals Act 1933, which applied to England notifying unsuspecting shoppers. Some of the large and Wales. The EU also granted derogation from stunning food chains, including Pizza Hut, Dominos and KFC, to those religious communities in Council regulation are doing the same. I am ashamed to say that even my (EC) No. 1099/2009 of 24 September 2009. former employer, Asda, has been guilty of this. In recent years, animals rights groups, notably the If consumers knew what kind of meat was being sold Farm Animal Welfare Council, have advocated the labelling to them, many might decide to make different purchases. of meat from non-stunned animals to reduce the amount For example, in August 2010 there were protests when of such meat purchased, and therefore the amount Harrow council announced its plan to serve halal-only produced. Neither the British nor the European Parliament menus in the borough’s state primary schools. Parents has passed a law requiring slaughtered meat to be labelled, complained that it was unfair that meat slaughtered but implementation of such laws has been much discussed according to sharia law was being forced upon non-Muslim in recent years. In 2003, the Labour party announced a children. consultation on a voluntary labelling scheme for slaughtered meat, but a parliamentary question in April 2007 revealed There are some people who wish to ban halal and that there had been no real progress on labelling. The kosher meat on animal welfare grounds. I want to make matter was raised in November 2009 in a report in the it clear that I am not one of those people. I am very European Parliament, which passed a proposal to have happy for people to make the decision for themselves, a category labelled, “Meat from slaughter without but they should be able to make an informed decision. stunning”, but that proposal was not contained in the My Bill would benefit those people who want to make final EU food information regulations. In the past two sure that their meat is kosher or halal before purchasing years, Members of this Parliament and of the European it, just as much as those who want to make sure that it is Parliament have expressed interest in continuance of a not kosher or halal before purchasing it. My Bill does labelling law, but no such law has been set in place. In not favour one or the other; it seeks to help everybody. November 2010, the Government’s position on labelling was summarised by Lord Henley, who stated: I had a supportive letter from an individual who wrote that “I can say that we have no plans whatever to make the practice of halal or kosher killing illegal. However, we think that it is “as a Sikh and someone who doesn’t eat or believe in halal and worth considering the appropriate labelling of all meat so that kosher meat, I think this is a great idea as it does not feel like there people know exactly what it is that they are eating and how the is choice anymore for those who do not wish to eat halal meat.” meat has been killed.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 23 November 2010; Vol. 722, c. 1006.] Some may argue that this can be left to the market and It is not often that I parrot statements from Ministers, that we do not need any legislation—an argument with but on this occasion I could not agree more. which I would generally have a great deal of sympathy. 825 Food Labelling (Halal and Kosher 24 APRIL 2012 Food Labelling (Halal and Kosher 826 Meat) Meat) [Philip Davies] not eat trayf food. I think that the hon. Gentleman is picking out two small minority religions that have a However, I believe that for practical reasons we need special way in which the meat they eat is killed and some legislation to help consumers. When people go to asking that they, and they alone, have their meat an Indian restaurant they are entitled to expect to eat labelled. halal meat, but when they go to Subway or KFC, they I say this as someone who has spoken on animal do not expect to do so and should be told. welfare in this House for many years. I was the leading Interestingly, Masood Khawaja, president of the Halal person who got the hunting ban passed, because of my Food Authority, in September 2010, said: understanding of the procedures of this House—I say that with some vanity, but it is a fact. I have been “As Muslims have a choice of eating halal meat, non-Muslims should also have the choice of not eating it. Customers should involved in the campaign to ban the keeping of wild know it is halal meat.” animals in circuses, something on which I do not recognise the hon. Gentleman as having been hyperactive. In an article in the Daily Mail in September 2010, my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), The proposed Bill would have profound implications secretary of the all-party group on animal welfare, said: for religious feelings, and I would be letting my faith and my family down, alongside many good, decent, fine “I don’t object to people of different religious groups being and religious Muslims in my constituency, if I did not catered for but it’s not something that should be imposed on everybody else...Theoutlets have a duty to let their customers state my total opposition to it. I suggest that the hon. know because some will object very strongly, not least because of Gentleman withdraw the motion so that the House the animal welfare implications of halal.” does not even have to vote on it. These two gentlemen agree with me, and I hope many other hon. Members in the House will do so too. Mr Speaker: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his observations on faith, family, eating habits and the legislative record; the House is indebted to him. 4.18 pm Question put (Standing Order No. 23). Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I The House divided: Ayes 70, Noes 73. oppose the Bill. I declare an interest. I am an orthodox Division No. 534] [4.24 pm Jew and I was brought up in a household where only kosher meat was eaten. None of these issues was raised throughout my childhood, adolescence and early adulthood. AYES Aldous, Peter McCartney, Karl I do not believe for a moment that the hon. Member Allen, Mr Graham McCrea, Dr William for Shipley (Philip Davies) has the tiniest anti-Semitic Andrew, Stuart Mills, Nigel feeling in him and I am sure that he is not proposing the Bacon, Mr Richard Morris, Anne Marie Bill for that reason. However, large numbers of Jews Baron, Mr John Murray, Sheryll would be very greatly distressed if what he proposes Bingham, Andrew Nokes, Caroline were to become law. I speak not only about Jews, but Bone, Mr Peter Parish, Neil Muslims. I represent many thousands of Muslims in my Brady, Mr Graham Phillips, Stephen constituency—good, decent, law-abiding people who, Brake, rh Tom Pritchard, Mark because of their religious allegiance, will eat only halal Bridgen, Andrew Reevell, Simon meat. I do not see why Jews and Muslims alone should Burley, Mr Aidan Reid, Mr Alan be compelled by law to have the meat they eat labelled in Burt, Lorely Rogerson, Dan a way that no other meat is labelled. Campbell, Mr Rosindell, Andrew Ronnie Rotheram, Steve If the hon. Gentleman’s proposed Bill had a wider Coffey, Dr Thérèse Ruffley, Mr David remit—for example, if it said that all chickens had to be Crouch, Tracey Russell, Sir Bob labelled in a certain way if the birds had been battery Davies, Philip Shannon, Jim hens—or if he had proposed that meat had to be Davis, rh Mr David Simpson, David labelled in a certain way if the animals had been kept in Eustice, George Smith, Henry dreadful conditions before being killed, and killed in an Evans, Jonathan Spencer, Mr Mark extremely brutal way, as shown in the documentary Field, Mark Stewart, Iain Fitzpatrick, Jim narrated by Sir Paul McCartney, which revealed the Sturdy, Julian George, Andrew Syms, Mr Robert astonishing, abominable and utterly dreadful conditions Glen, John in which large numbers of animals, whether cows, pigs Tomlinson, Justin Glindon, Mrs Mary Turner, Mr Andrew or whatever, are kept, I would at least regard him as Gyimah, Mr Sam Twigg, Derek consistent. But he is not being consistent. He has picked Harris, Rebecca Vickers, Martin Heaton-Harris, Chris on two small minorities who share the way in which the Ward, Mr David Hoey, Kate meat they eat is killed. Indeed, when Muslims first came Whittaker, Craig Hughes, rh Simon to Manchester and Leeds and wanted their animals Whittingdale, Mr Johnson, Gareth killed in a halal way, they went to Jewish slaughter John Kirby, Simon houses in order to do so. Williams, Mr Mark Knight, rh Mr Greg During my whole upbringing, I ate only kosher meat. Leadsom, Andrea Williams, Roger I am afraid that I did not keep to that in later years, but Lee, Dr Phillip Wollaston, Dr Sarah I still will not eat pigmeat of any kind because my Lilley, rh Mr Peter Tellers for the Ayes: mother and father brought me up in such a way that Long, Naomi Mr Philip Hollobone and that meat is what we call “trayf” in Yiddish, and I will McCartney, Jason Mr David Nuttall 827 Food Labelling (Halal and Kosher 24 APRIL 2012 Food Labelling (Halal and Kosher 828 Meat) Meat) NOES the Culture Secretary, was taking the decision in a Abrahams, Debbie Leech, Mr John quasi-judicial way, is it not paramount that the Prime Barclay, Stephen Lewis, Brandon Minister also come to the House to correct the record at Bebb, Guto Lewis, Mr Ivan the earliest opportunity? Bell, Sir Stuart Lloyd, Tony Blackman, Bob Mactaggart, Fiona Mr Speaker: If a matter of privilege is being raised, Brown, rh Mr Nicholas McDonnell, John hon. or right hon. Members should write to me about Burden, Richard Mearns, Ian it. I feel, on the strength of what I have heard, that I am Caton, Martin Miller, Andrew quite able to respond. I say to the shadow Secretary of Clark, Katy Morden, Jessica State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport and to Clarke, rh Mr Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) the right hon. Member for Exeter that I have received Clwyd, rh Ann Morris, Grahame M. no indication from the Secretary of State that he intends Crausby, Mr David (Easington) to come to the House. The point that the right hon. and Crockart, Mike Mosley, Stephen Danczuk, Simon Nash, Pamela learned Lady and the right hon. Gentleman have made Davies, Geraint Poulter, Dr Daniel is clear, on the record and will have been widely heard. Dobson, rh Frank Qureshi, Yasmin Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Reckless, Mark Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab) rose— Doran, Mr Frank Sarwar, Anas Ellis, Michael Scott, Mr Lee Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab) rose— Ellman, Mrs Louise Sharma, Mr Virendra Evans, Chris Sheerman, Mr Barry Mr Speaker: I do not intend to allow this matter to Flynn, Paul Shepherd, Mr Richard run for any length of time, but I am prepared to hear Francis, Dr Hywel Skinner, Mr Dennis the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and then Freer, Mike Slaughter, Mr Andy we will see how it goes. Gapes, Mike Smith, rh Mr Andrew Gardiner, Barry Stewart, Rory Chris Bryant: I am very grateful. Further to that Goggins, rh Paul Stuart, Ms Gisela point of order, Mr Speaker, there may be an issue of Griffiths, Andrew Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry privilege, and you are absolutely right that if any Opposition Gyimah, Mr Sam Thurso, John Member wants to allege that the Secretary of State has Halfon, Robert Turner, Karl lied to the House, that is a matter of privilege and we Harrington, Richard Vaz, rh Keith Havard, Mr Dai should write to you, notwithstanding the fact that the Wheeler, Heather Committee of Privileges is in the slightly complicated Hinds, Damian Williams, Hywel Hollingbery, George position of being reconstituted. However, surely the Wood, Mike Hopkins, Kris matter may also be one for the House in a different way, Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald because the code of conduct for Ministers is a not only Khan, rh Sadiq Tellers for the Noes: a matter for the Prime Minister but written into a Lavery, Ian Valerie Vaz and resolution of the House. Surely it is appropriate that the Lazarowicz, Mark Jacob Rees-Mogg Secretary of State should come here to explain himself in relation to the code of conduct. Question accordingly negatived. Mr Speaker: I note what the hon. Gentleman has Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): said. He will also have noted, I hope, what I said, which On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Secretary of State was that what the right hon. and learned Member for for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport assured the Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) and the right House that in respect of the News Corporation bid for hon. Member for Exeter said will have been heard on BSkyB, he was acting as Secretary of State in a quasi-judicial the Treasury Bench. I think it is a safe prediction that it capacity, and above all in a way that was impartial and will have been heard by the Secretary of State at whom fair. In view of the evidence that has been adduced it is directed, and I do not think there is anything that I before the Leveson inquiry today, it appears that the now need to add or can usefully add. The observations Secretary of State has fallen woefully short of the standards have been made, and they are on the record. I thank expected from him in his office and in the public interest. right hon. and hon. Members for their comments. I believe that the right thing for the Secretary of State to do would be to come to the House to offer an apology Margaret Curran rose— and tender his resignation. Mr Speaker: I would not want the hon. Lady to feel that she has been unjustly excluded or discriminated Several hon. Members rose— against in any way, for that is not my practice, as she knows, so we must hear her. Mr Speaker: I will take a very brief further point from the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), Margaret Curran: Further to that point of order, a former Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Mr Speaker. There is another dimension of the evidence Sport, and then respond to the point of order. heard today and the revelations at the Leveson inquiry. May I ask that the Secretary of State for Scotland be Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Further to that called to the House because of the implications of those point of order, Mr Speaker. Given that on 20 July last revelations for the people of Scotland and the allegations year, the Culture Secretary himself said that any against Alex Salmond and his involvement in those conversations that the Prime Minister had had with matters? They are of great concern to the people of James Murdoch were irrelevant, specifically because he, Scotland and I believe they bear further examination. 829 Food Labelling (Halal and Kosher 24 APRIL 2012 830 Meat) Mr Speaker: I would say to the hon. Lady that those Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of on the Treasury Bench will have heard what she has to Offenders Bill say. The person to whom she has just referred will also have heard, or will hear very soon. It is not a matter for Consideration of Lords message the Chair today. I have heard the points of order, and have responded in such a way as I think is proper at this Mr Speaker: I must draw the attention of the House time. I think we will have to leave it there for the present. to the fact that financial privilege is involved in Lords amendment 1B. If the House agrees to the amendment, I shall ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the Journal.

Clause 1

LORD CHANCELLOR’S FUNCTIONS

4.40 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1B.

Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to consider the Government motion to disagree with Lords amendments 2B and 196B, the Government motion to insist on its disagreement with Lords amendment 31, and Government amendment (a) in lieu.

Mr Djanogly: As you have reminded the House, Lords amendment 1B, dealing with the statutory duty for legal aid, impinges on the financial privileges in this House. I should also say that my interests remain as I declared at the last stage of ping-pong on 17 April. I ask the House to disagree to this amendment, and I will ask the Reasons Committee to ascribe financial privilege as the reason for doing so. Let me first address Lords amendment 31, which concerns the sensitive and important issue of mesothelioma, in the light of the amendment we have tabled. I should emphasise at the start that the Government take very seriously the plight of mesothelioma victims and do not believe that mesothelioma cases are being brought inappropriately. We should appreciate that the issue in mesothelioma cases is not so much causation as process. In effect, the challenge for the Government, employers and insurers is how we ensure that we have procedures in place that enable sufferers to receive compensation more quickly and without the stress of having to pursue protracted litigation. Much has been done by recent Governments to improve the position of mesothelioma sufferers when the employer’s insurer can be traced. There is now also a consensus that more needs to be done in respect of sufferers who cannot trace their employer’s insurer. Let me be clear that the Government are committed to action on that point. We are working closely with insurers and other stakeholders on this pressing issue with a view to making an announcement before the House rises in July. I have considered very carefully the points that have been made both in debates in the House last week and the other place last night. We have also held ministerial meetings with campaigners on behalf of mesothelioma victims, including with Lord Alton, the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) and my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch). 831 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 832 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill The Jackson reforms in part 2 of the Bill are due to in the other place yesterday that this amendment would come into effect in April next year. We have reviewed have no effect; that it would have some effect, although that timetable in the context of mesothelioma. On that effect was not entirely clear; and that it would have careful reflection about the special position of mesothelioma a future effect in guiding successive Lord Chancellors sufferers, I can now give the House the assurance that when consideration was being given to what services we will not commence the relevant provisions in clause 43, might be added to the scope of legal aid under clause 8(2). on success fees, and clause 45, on after-the-event insurance, The difficulty the other place has so far had in in respect of mesothelioma claims in April next year. establishing the precise effect of the amendment is Rather, we will implement the clauses in respect of instructive as this House decides whether it should those claims at a later date, once we are satisfied on the stand. A duty with an uncertain effect is desirable way forward for those who are unable to trace their neither in legislative terms nor for the person attempting employer’s insurer. The amendment commits the Lord to discharge that duty. However, it is the Government’s Chancellor to carrying out a review of the likely effect view that the effects of this duty can be described and of the clauses in relation to mesothelioma proceedings are highly undesirable. The amendment would remove and to publish a report before those clauses are the uncontroversial, unambiguous duty the Bill places implemented. on the Lord Chancellor to ensure that legal aid is made available according to part 1 of the Bill. This made a 4.45 pm clear link between the duty and legal aid. In terms of a clear duty, it does not get much clearer than this. Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): However, the amendment would not only remove that The concession that the Government are making goes but would replace it with a duty that would bring some way to dealing with the concerns that many on ambiguity and uncertainty. It refers to “legal services” both sides of the House have expressed in relation to rather than “legal aid”. mesothelioma, but it does not deal with the point raised in the other place by Lord Thomas yesterday, which The argument was also made in the other place that was that success fees should not be claimed in such the amendment had no effect other than to underline cases because liability is not in issue. What will the the Government’s commitment to the principle of access Government do about that? to justice. We contend that the imposition of any duty on the Lord Chancellor in legislation must create in law Mr Djanogly: As I have said, this is not an issue of a potential course of action through challenges to the causation. I heard Lord Thomas speak in the other discharge of that duty. If it is accepted that the imposition place yesterday, and I very much agree with what he had of such a duty must give rise to a potential course of to say, which was essentially that in cases in which action, the amendment’s effect must be to bring into causation is not an issue, there is—in many respects—no question the range of services provided under the Bill. reason why solicitors should have a success fee for that The matter would then turn on the question of which type of work. But the Opposition have made their case, legal services meet people’s needs. That contrasts with as have others, and the Government have to deal with the clear and unambiguous duty in clause 1(1) requiring things as they stand. That is why we are offering to the Lord Chancellor to make this concession, but it is a time-limited concession “secure that legal aid is made available in accordance with” only. The overall Jackson reforms stand as our preferred part 1. way to move forward. The Government believe that the question of which Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): I am grateful to the legal services meet people’s needs is not relevant to the Minister for having listened closely to the debate last Bill. Schedule 1 lists the services that Parliament, following week and to the debate in the House of Lords. But is it consideration of first principles and extensive consultation, not the case that this legislation facilitates a solicitor believes it appropriate to make available under legal aid. recovering a success fee from the client’s damages, and To reopen that question via an ongoing duty would that if this legislation did not proceed, that could not frustrate our intention to bring certainty and clarity to happen? the scope of services funded by legal aid. The amendment would result in only one thing: numerous expensive Mr Djanogly: No. The hon. Gentleman rather distorts judicial reviews—more than likely at taxpayers’ expense the implications of the legislation. We are capping as the boundaries of the new duty are tested and success fees, which are currently 100%, at 25%. because the question of which services should be provided would be reopened. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): On the point about It was said yesterday in the other place that such JR the delay until the review has been undertaken, is that applications would almost certainly fail, and that merely a delay or is it a genuine review? If it is a review, consequently there would be no cost implications to the what will it consider and will he give an indication of its amendment. However, even rejected applications have timetable? an inherent cost: lawyers are paid legal aid fees for their work up to that point and the Government pay their Mr Djanogly: Given the timing of this development, own lawyers to defend such cases. we have not thought through the exact procedures of I would also like to address the argument put forward the review, but it will certainly be undertaken before we in the other place about the amendment’s effect in move to ending the provisions that remain. guiding future Lord Chancellors. It seems novel to We now come to the amendment in lieu passed by the include in the Bill an overriding duty that activates other place in respect of clause 1, and what has been when the Lord Chancellor considers adding a service or described as a purpose clause. It was suggested variously services to the scope of legal aid. I am not convinced 833 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 834 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Djanogly] from GPs and other medical professionals. That is in addition to the range of evidence that had already been this is possible, and I am certain it is unhelpful. Adding confirmed, including the fact of an injunction or order services to the Bill requires the affirmative approval of to protect against domestic violence having been made, both Houses. Such a process will be more than adequate a criminal conviction or ongoing criminal proceedings to ensure that the Lord Chancellor takes account of the for domestic violence, a referral to a multi-agency risk relevant factors when considering what, if any, services assessment conference and a finding of fact by the should be added to the scope of legal aid. courts that there has been domestic violence. We have I emphasise, however, as Lord McNally did in the also doubled the previously announced time limit for House of Lords yesterday, that the Bill’s present form evidence for this exception from 12 months to two years. arises from extensive debate and consideration across both Houses and reflects decisions about the future Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): We all nature of legal aid. In short, the amendment is incompatible noted the Lord Chancellor’s commitment in the Chamber with the Bill. It would muddy both the duty to which last week to extending the time limit to two years. Will the Lord Chancellor is subject and the scope of services the Minister clarify whether that will also apply in cases that might be funded. of child abuse, which seem to be encompassed by the definition of domestic violence that now applies in the Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) Bill? Clarification would be welcome on that, as there (LD): I am not arguing that the House should agree to are clearly instances in which proceedings might be the Lords amendment, but the Minister will know, as brought in relation to child abuse after more than the Lord Chancellor does, that I have asked that the 12 months, including in care proceedings, in which it Government to consider bringing immigration matters— would be entirely appropriate to grant legal aid. whether onward appeals by judicial review or when a judge gives permission for a case to go to a higher Mr Djanogly: Yes, I am pleased to be able to confirm court—back within the scope of legal aid. Will he put to the hon. Lady that that is the case. on the record the response to that plea, which I have We think that we have struck the right balance, made to the Lord Chancellor and him several times? although some will disagree. However, such disagreement misses the fact that there are two important safeguards Mr Djanogly: My right hon. Friend finds the right to our system, which will provide genuine victims with a moment to ask about something not subject to the route into legal aid even if they do not have the headline amendment. It is an important point, however. My forms of evidence. First, when a court has to consider right hon. and learned Friend has written to him about whether domestic violence is a factor in a private family onward appeals in immigration cases. The Department case, it may consider any relevant evidence, including will conduct a review of the impacts of withdrawing police call-outs or evidence from domestic violence legal aid in such cases once we have sufficient data and support services, or other types of evidence that have after implementation of the reforms. I envisage allowing not even been suggested by the Opposition. This is also about a year for the reforms to take effect before starting relevant in regard to the time limits. When a case such a review. involves older incidents of domestic violence and a Lords amendment 2 was passed in the other place court considers that the matter is still relevant and yesterday by the extremely narrow margin of three makes a finding of fact, legal aid funding could still be votes. Unusually for this topic, no one spoke other than triggered. There is also the more generic safeguard of the mover and my right hon. Friend Lord McNally. the exceptional funding regime. That indicates how far we have moved. I remind the We continue to believe that the evidential requirements House of the main points. First, and crucially, legal aid should not be on the face of the Bill. The level of detail to obtain the full range of injunctions and orders to required means that those requirements will be much protect against domestic violence will remain exactly as better left to regulations, subject to the affirmative at present. There is no evidential gateway for legal aid resolution procedure, rather than to primary legislation. for these remedies, and those who need legal aid to Given how far we have moved on this topic, and the protect themselves can get it, regardless of their means. safeguards that I have outlined today, I invite the House Secondly, although we have removed most of private to disagree with Lords amendments 2B and 196B. family law from the scope of legal aid in favour of funding mediation and less adversarial proceedings, we Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I shall try to keep my have made an extremely important exception for victims comments short, as I know that a number of colleagues of domestic violence. That is so that they can take or wish to speak in the debate. The Bill sustained 11 defeats defend proceedings about child contact or maintenance, on Report in the Lords, which is a record for this or about the division of property, without being intimidated Parliament, and a further three yesterday.The Government by their abuser during the proceedings. need to show some humility when they have suffered We have made significant changes to the detail of this 14 defeats, and I am pleased that we have seen some exception in response to concerns expressed in both evidence of that today. Houses. We have accepted in full the Association of It is still unclear why the Government are so resistant Chief Police Officers’ definition of domestic violence. to Lords amendment 1B. They have given different We have also significantly widened the list of evidence reasons on different days for their opposition to Lord that we will accept as demonstrating domestic violence Pannick’s amendment. A statement of legislative purpose for the purposes of the exception. That list will now is frequently included in legislation of this nature. Lord include undertakings, police cautions, evidence of admission Pannick’s drafting of the amendment would result in a to a refuge, evidence from social services and evidence statement of purpose within the financial limits set out 835 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 836 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill in the Bill. The key question is whether there should be other community groups. We will vote against the a duty on the Lord Chancellor to take into account Government in their attempt to overturn the Lords citizens’ needs before making arrangements for legal aid amendments. provision. The amendment has been drafted with reference Lords amendment 31 deals with mesothelioma. I was to the financial resources available, and would therefore told this morning that the Government were not willing not incur further expense for the Government. The to give any ground on this issue either. The key question Government cannot have it both ways. They say that here is whether victims of industrial diseases such as the amendment replicates provisions that are already in mesothelioma should have to hand over part of their place, and that it is therefore unnecessary. They also say damages to their lawyers and insurer or whether the that it would add to Government expenditure. We will wrongdoers should fund the cost of the successful be voting against the Government on Lords amendment 1B. litigation. I pay tribute to the noble Lord Alton as well as to Lords Bach and Beecham for their work. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale 5pm East (Paul Goggins), who I see is in his place, and the Lords amendments 2B and 196B focus on domestic hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) violence, so it is worth reminding this House what we also deserve a mention for their efforts. Much progress are talking about, which is the availability of legal aid has been made as a result of their work over the last few for victims of abuse to leave their abuser and protect hours and days. their children. It is also worth reminding this House Members of all parties made powerful speeches last that on Second Reading, in Committee and on Report week about the impact of mesothelioma on their the Government believed that they had correct both the constituents. Someone suffering from this horrible disease definition of domestic violence and the evidence that is not making up their cancer to make a quick buck; they would accept as proof of domestic violence. Only they cannot possibly be part of the compensation culture. last week—thanks to the efforts of Baroness Scotland Mesothelioma is virtually incurable. This disease is and others in the other place, but also thanks to victims’ inflicted on the hard working—those who have spent groups, women’s groups and others who contacted us—did their lives contributing to Britain’s economy in heavy the Government finally accept our definition, or the industry and in manufacturing. The Government have Association of Chief Police Officers’definition, of domestic agreed to an amendment whereby changes affecting violence. I accept that progress was made last week, too, proceedings cannot happen until the Lord Chancellor in the acceptance of most of our evidential criteria for has carried out a review of the likely effects of the proof of domestic violence. We welcome that progress provisions on those proceedings, and published a report and the direction of travel. on the conclusion of the review. The remaining issues of contention relate to two issues. The first is whether evidence from more than two Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): My years ago is acceptable, and the second is whether right hon. Friend has touched a raw nerve. Plymouth is evidence from specialist domestic violence organisations a hot spot for mesothelioma, and it also has an extremely will count as acceptable proof of abuse. The Government low-wage economy. These people are not millionaires, have said that they will accept evidence only of admission and losing a significant proportion of their damages to a refuge, for example. simply is not fair on those who have this horrible On the time limit issue, the Government have moved disease and whose families have had to live with it. I from one year to two years. The Minister will be aware congratulate my right hon. Friend on the work that he that examples were given in the other place of real cases is doing in attempting to change the present position. of real victims who would get legal aid currently, but would not get it in the future—even after the change to Sadiq Khan: What my hon. Friend has said echoes two years. To enable more victims to get access to legal some of the powerful speeches that were made last aid and to ensure consistency, the Lords propose moving week. to the general limitation period for civil litigation, which is six years. It is worth bearing in mind that the progress that has been achieved is due to work done by Members in all On the evidential criteria, even allowing accessing parts of both Houses. We welcome the concessions that refuge services as evidence of eligibility for legal aid will have been made today, we welcome the pause, and we exclude many women who are simply unable to access approach the amendment in good faith. For reasons such services yet are experiencing violence. Baroness that we appreciate, the details could not be fleshed out Scotland drew attention to research from women’s aid. today, but we assume that there will be an independent On 16 June 2011, 224 women were turned away from assessment of the evidence gathered during the due refuge services—163 because there were no bed spaces, diligence phase. 13 because they had no recourse to public funds, and 48 because of complex needs. None of those would We hope that the review will consider the impact on satisfy the evidential criteria necessary to secure legal victims’ damages. According to some, they will increase aid. Of the 125,000 women and children who suffer by up to 10% as a result of the Government’s proposals, domestic and sexual violence each year, only 17,615 are but others disagree, and we expect the review to look in refuges. into that. Even with last week’s concessions, this Bill still leaves too many vulnerable women and their children exposed. Mr Djanogly: It would, in fact, be a matter for the The Lords amendments are supported by the National judges who would apply the 10% increase, rather than Federation of Women’s Institutes, Mumsnet and many for the Government. 837 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 838 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Sadiq Khan: Of course the Minister is right, but if rather, should have dealt with how best to protect the there is to be a review of the impact on those who suffer interests of the people who find themselves victims, and from this disease, we will expect the impact of the those of their families. Jackson changes on the level of damages to serve as a Without the amendment, the practical implications benchmark, rather than the changes affecting victims of the law as drafted for victims of mesothelioma would per se. We hope that the pause will lead to a rethink by have been hugely damaging. Regardless of what colleagues the Government. on either side of the House may think of lawyers and We hope that the review will consider the impact on insurance companies, it would ultimately be the victim, access to justice—some say that lawyers may be unwilling who would be going through intense suffering through to take on such cases, and that as a result they may not no fault of their own, who lost out. The amendment be heard—and the interaction of the reforms with the rightly exempts mesothelioma from the overall package new employers liability insurance bureau. We also believe of reforms in the Bill, but it should be considered the that the data should take real-life experience into account. beginning, not the end of the discussion. If ever there was an opportunity to kick-start progress on speeding Andrew George: The right hon. Gentleman will have up compensation payments to victims, it is now. heard my intervention on the Minister, when I sought to Like others, I seek assurances that there will be distinguish between a mere delay in the implementation proper parliamentary debate on the commencement of the policy and a genuine review. I hoped that the order and the report from the Lord Chancellor, and Minister would give me some indication that if the that future legislation will be synchronised with other findings of a review required the Government’s policy initiatives that the Department for Work and Pensions to be amended in some way, there would be an opportunity is working on. However, more than anything, I urge the for a rethink. Government to conduct the review not with lawyers or insurers in mind, but with the sufferers at the centre, Sadiq Khan: Given the calibre of the Ministers involved and to come forward with alternative proposals to and that of the Members of both Houses who have ensure that they are protected, financially and otherwise, engaged in discussions over the last few hours and days, as soon as possible. I believe that this will be a genuine review. I am sure that I started by thanking the noble Lords for tabling not only sufferers from the disease but colleagues who amendment 31 in the first place. It is only right that I have been involved would be devastated if it were not. finish by saying that I am sure that the late Lord Newton We welcome the review, but the report needs to be of Braintree, a co-sponsor of Lords amendment 31 who based on proper evidence, and the genuine concerns passed away recently from a respiratory disease, would that exist must be addressed. We support the proposal have been pleased, as a former Leader of this House, for a pause, and we are willing to work with the Government that the Government have listened, that cross-party to ensure that we get this right. consensus has been achieved and that common sense has prevailed. Several hon. Members rose— Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): It Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Hon. is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Chatham Members can see how many of their number wish to and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), who has played a brave take part in the debate. As it will end at 5.40 pm, I ask and important role in discussions over recent days. I pay them to be mindful of others when making their tribute to her for that. In relation to Lords amendment 31 contributions. and amendment (a) in lieu, the whole House is rightly paying tribute to Lord Alton and his supporters in Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): In another place for raising the issue in the first instance the light of your comments, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will and for then persisting in their opposition to what the make a short speech, and will confine my remarks to the Government have until now been proposing in the Bill. Government’s amendment to Lords amendment 31. I also want to thank Lord McNally and Lord Freud Let me first pay tribute to the work of Lord Alton, for the constructive approach that they took in a meeting Lord Avebury, the late Lord Newton, and others in the that I attended with Lord Alton last week, and in the House of Lords for tabling the original amendment. days since. I welcome the concession that the Minister is Without their dedication and commitment to ensuring offering this afternoon, and I appreciate that he cannot a workable outcome for those with mesothelioma, we go into great detail about any proposals, which he said would not be where we are today. he hoped the Government would be able to bring forward I welcome the fact that the Government have listened before the summer recess. However, I can tell the House carefully to the case presented in both Houses for that his ministerial colleagues made it clear in the exempting mesothelioma victims from the current proposals. meeting I attended that they are striving to negotiate It is not right to force victims of an extraordinary and implement a system of compensation and support disease—when no fraud is possible and compensation is for mesothelioma victims that is swifter and more certain—to shop around for a lawyer during their last sympathetic than the one currently in place. I am sure few months of life in an attempt to pay the lowest that the whole House would want to encourage them in possible success fees as a proportion of a payment that their endeavours. they deserve. Discussion of this issue should never have Whether amendment (a) in lieu is sufficient will depend been a fight about compassion for those with mesothelioma entirely on the answers to a number of questions. In —it is a pretty heartless person who does not show particular—this has already been raised—what will the compassion for those who suffer from the disease—but, extent and conduct of the review be? Crucially, how will 839 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 840 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill the commencement of the relevant provisions of the It has already been observed that lawyers charging Bill be aligned with the proposals that the Department success fees need to take care to ask themselves questions for Work and Pensions hopes to publish before the in cases where causation is not part of the equation, and summer recess? I would be happy to take an intervention where, frankly, the argument is first about making sure from the Minister if he wishes to make a clear commitment all the facts are marshalled so the evidence can be put in this afternoon that he will not seek to implement the train to prove liability and, secondly, about questions of relevant provisions in the Bill unless and until an improved quantum. As those matters do not involve complex system of compensation is in place. issues of law, lawyers should ask what sums it is appropriate for them to charge their clients. Mr Djanogly: I do not want to give any binding As I have said, there is also, necessarily, a sense of commitments about the process today, because things urgency in these cases. We must create a system that will have not been finalised. However, I can tell the right allow for a more speedy resolution of mesothelioma hon. Gentleman that if the process is to be improved by cases. In particular, we must address the issue of the the Department for Work and Pensions, which we hope traceability of insurers of former employers as that is it will be—he will have some insight into our proposals often a challenge for mesothelioma sufferers and those from the discussions he has had—that could well require representing them. Mention has been made of the Motor DWP legislation, in which case we would look to roll Insurers Bureau. Many accidents are caused by uninsured the ending of the provisions into the commencement of drivers who then go on their way. It can be difficult to the DWP provisions. That is how I foresee the process trace them, but victims can claim from that bureau, now, but again, I am not making that a commitment. which is funded by the insurers, in a civil court. I know all Members would like to see a similar scheme adopted Paul Goggins: I am grateful to the Minister for that in the months ahead, and the Government have made a helpful intervention, because if there is to be legislation welcome early concession that they will report back on to introduce the new system, there will have to be full that before the summer recess. parliamentary scrutiny of those proposals in both Houses. We have had debates in Committee, the House and It has been a privilege and a pleasure to support Lord another place about domestic violence, and the Government Alton in his efforts to protect mesothelioma victims. He are to be commended on the progress made on that. I has asked me to say that he is grateful for the cross-party reiterate that it would be better to put the criteria for the support he has received from this House, and that, assessment of evidence in regulations rather than in along with other Members of both Houses, he awaits the Bill, as it is patently clear that regulations can be with interest the outcome of the review and the details amended more swiftly. If there are genuine injustices as of the new compensation scheme. Above all, he is pleased a result of the operation of the new rules, regulations that Parliament has acted to protect mesothelioma victims. can be amended by negative or affirmative procedure. For my part, I am pleased that the Minister’s comments They provide a far more flexible way of dealing with the of last week—in particular that the families of dying challenges ahead than primary legislation. For those mesothelioma victims should, and would, be watching reasons, I am happy to support the Government on the the lawyers’ clock as fees mounted—have now been vexed issue of the domestic violence criteria. overtaken by an acceptance that mesothelioma victims It has been a long journey; this Bill has taken a are not part of a compensation culture and that they considerable amount of my time and that of everybody should not be expected to pay their lawyers a success fee else who has taken a keen interest in legal aid. Some out of their damages, and, finally, that through the extraordinarily important debates have taken place, and amendment in lieu and other measures that will follow I pay tribute to all Members in this House and in the Parliament should continue to do all in its power to give House of Lords for engaging in a very constructive, mesothelioma sufferers the best possible help and support. important and challenging set of debates as the Bill has proceeded. It is now coming to the last stage, and I am 5.15 pm glad that the Government have, in many respects, listened, adapted their position and made appropriate concessions. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I welcome the Government’s concession and amendment on mesothelioma. This issue vexed many of us last week. Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): I wish to say a few The original amendment was somewhat wider, in that it words about the Government amendment. I hope that related to respiratory diseases in general, and that caused it means that the Government will come up with a a lot of us pause for thought. The new amendment is satisfactory system by which mesothelioma sufferers appropriate, however, as it deals specifically with this can be fully compensated, without them or their families deadly condition. It reflects the will of both this House being robbed of the compensation they receive and so and the House of Lords. It promises a proper review richly deserve. and a report at the end of that. It has also been Hon. Members may well be aware that, in years gone introduced in recognition of the fact that there is a by, Rochdale was home to the world’s largest asbestos genuine sense of urgency as many mesothelioma sufferers factory, so this is a massive issue for my constituents. It —including constituents of mine in Swindon, which, is fair to say that they suffer from the connections that like many other industrial towns, has a proud heritage they have had with asbestos over many years. Just last but also, sadly, a deadly legacy in the form of this awful Saturday, I was knocking on doors in my constituency, disease—do not have time on their side. That is why this as I do every weekend, and I called upon a lady in is an exceptional case. That is why in this instance, in Littleborough, Mrs Beryl Greenwood, who told me which a House of Lords decision has put causation about her experience with this disease. She had been beyond any doubt, we are dealing with a particularly married to her husband, Kenneth, for many years, and unusual set of circumstances. he had contracted the disease from having worked as a 841 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 842 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Simon Danczuk] it made me tremble with horror, is shockingly not that exceptional. We should not forget that, in this country, welder on the railways. He had worn asbestos gloves at two women are murdered every week following a history that time and, no surprise, he passed away a couple of of domestic violence. We should not forget how few years ago. I suppose the good news is that she was women ever report it. Why do they not report it? served well by solicitors; she and her family received a Overwhelmingly, the victims of domestic violence think, fair amount of compensation and were treated reasonably. “It was my fault.” That is how they feel, so they do not She told me that the issue was that none of that go to the police or to social workers. They conceal it, as compensation will ever bring back her husband, whom they think it is caused by something that they did. she loved dearly. The point I am getting to is that the Such women often report because of someone else. Government now need to amend this Bill—we are When women are pregnant, they will report their asking them to be genuine in this—so that the people victimisation by their partner because they want to and the families who suffer from this terrible disease are protect the child in their womb. The problem with the treated fairly, responsibly and respectfully. distance travelled by the Government is that they have not yet gone far enough. I hope to be able to persuade Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I do not intend the Minister to take that last step and to accept wider to detain the House for long, because I am aware that forms of evidence. We know that women do not necessarily plenty of other hon. Members wish to speak. I just wish go to a refuge; they go to a place of refuge. They might to add my voice to those thanking the Government and go to their sister, to their school friend or to their mum, the Ministers for their concession on this matter. My and they are the people who women will tell first about constituency is very rural but, like the constituency of their experience of victimisation. the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), it Some very perturbing evidence from Welsh Women’s contains a large asbestos-related industry. That industry Aid suggests that the average time—the average, not the was born and based in High Peak, so my constituency extreme—that a victim might take before reporting a has a higher level of mesothelioma than the national domestic violence incident and getting to the stage of average. The Government’s movement on this issue is to resolving the private family law issues is five and a half be commended. Last week, I, along with one or two of years. That average time would be excluded by the route my hon. Friends, voted in the Opposition Lobby on this that the Minister is pursuing. I beg him to recognise matter. I subsequently received an e-mail from a constituent that the House of Lords got this one right and to telling me that he was actually proud of his MP—he say that he will take the last step and ensure that the said that this does not happen very often. other victims are properly protected. That is important I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for because by allowing these women to use private family Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), because she law to protect themselves and their families, we will has driven this through, along with the right hon. prevent future domestic violence homicides. The Minister Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) could do that by changing his position on the amendments. and those in the other place. I welcome the amendment in lieu and am particularly pleased to see that a report Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): It is always a pleasure will be published on the conclusions of the review. That to follow the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) gives me great confidence that the review will be meaningful and I pay tribute to the work done by her and other and searching, and will come forward with something Opposition Members when they were in Government. that all of us across the House can support when the They undoubtedly made huge advances in the prosecution day comes. I look forward to that report. of people who had committed offences of domestic violence and put protection in place to enable victims of Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): When the Lord domestic violence to come forward in both the criminal Chancellor introduced the statement to the House which jurisdiction and the family and civil jurisdiction. That preceded this Bill, I asked him about the provisions in protected not only those women but their children. We relation to domestic violence. He thought that I would part company, however, on this matter as I believe that be pleased with the answer, because the Government the Government have gone as far as they should in their had recognised that domestic violence was, to some acceptance of the definition of domestic violence and degree, a special case. I was not pleased with the answer, what should support any allegation of domestic violence. because at that point the definition of “domestic violence” I do not think that it is fair simply to criticise those on was unique to this Bill, it did not cover all cases and it the Front Bench for not understanding domestic violence, was, in my view, fundamentally flawed. So the first especially if it were suggested that they did not do so by thing I wish to say is how glad I am that the Government virtue of the sex of the ministerial team or the Secretary have now decided to use the Association of Chief Police of State. I am not suggesting that the hon. Member for Officers definition of “domestic violence”. Slough said that herself, but others have. It was interesting I need to push one point further, however. The failure that in her speech she told us that the peculiarity and of the Government to understand the reality of the lives horror of domestic violence, which is demonstrated in of victims of domestic violence is reflected in how they the fact that women will often suffer for year after year have constructed this Bill. I will never forget the moment without making any formal complaint or any complaint when I talked to two local police officers in my constituency at all and that they suffer in silence, came as a surprise who dealt regularly with victims of domestic violence and a shock to her when she first learned of it in a and who told me about a case that they had just dealt conversation with two police officers. with of a woman who had been beaten up by her Many Members on both sides of the House have husband by 12 years earlier but did not report it until he experience by virtue of their work in the health service, started biting pieces out of her body. That case, although the criminal justice system or—I am thinking in particular 843 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 844 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The I thank my constituent, Mrs Marie Hughes, whom I Weald (Mrs Grant)—as a solicitor in the family division. quoted extensively last week. I also thank the peers who Unless one has had that first-hand experience, some of listened to last week’s debate in the Commons and, as a the appalling stories one hears beggar belief. It is difficult result, sent this matter back to this House. Had they not to accept the fact that appalling abuse can go on, year done so, we would not have had the concession. after year, unreported. I pay tribute to those Conservative and Liberal Democrat It has been generally accepted across the House that MPs—I think there were five Conservatives and two we still have a long way to go. Members of this House Liberal Democrats—who voted against their Whip last conducted an admirable investigation into the inadequacy week. They listened to the debate, participated in it and of our stalking laws, notwithstanding the efforts made contributed to the expression of the overwhelming view, by the previous Administration. We know that more both in this House and in the other place, that the legislation is needed to protect from stalking which is, in measure could not proceed in the form in which it my opinion, not only an offence of abuse but, in effect, appeared last week. It was clearly wrong, and I am an offence of violence because of the psychological pleased that we have reached a different position. damage it causes. Recent events in Nottingham, which my Broxtowe constituency touches on, show that we still have police officers who, when it comes to domestic Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) violence, simply do not get it. A woman was murdered (Lab): I shall be brief. I pay tribute to the Government who had repeatedly complained to the police. for the moves that they have made on the Bill and I welcome the progress on the definition of domestic violence. Although they have extended the range of 5.30 pm evidence that will be required, there is still some way to The real subject of this debate is whether the Government go. I recall that last week the hon. Member for Maidstone have finally got it right. I welcome the changes they have and The Weald (Mrs Grant) suggested that the time made and I am pleased and proud that they listened to limits might be up to three years. what others have said. I agree with my hon. Friend the I am speaking on behalf of a constituent who came Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) about to see me a few weeks ago. She had been habitually regulations. We do not need to put all the provisions on abused—emotionally abused—over a number of years. the face of the Bill. I am more than content for the The last straw for her was when her husband tried to set matter to be dealt with in regulations, which give us fire to her. She went to hospital. She has medical flexibility, so that if a point arises that we have not yet evidence but she did not want to press any charges. She thought about or even discovered, it can be added to the is, understandably, so traumatised by the experience regulations. that she has been through that several months after the On the question of evidence, I caution against saying incident she can barely speak. She is years away from that all that is needed is a simple complaint to someone, being able to take to a court or tribunal the levels of somewhere along the line. There has to be something evidence that have been suggested. I support amendments more substantial than that. After all, that one has been 2B and 196B, particularly on her behalf. abused in some way by a partner or ex-partner is a serious allegation to make. Although I do not for one Like my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon moment suggest that the overwhelming majority of Danczuk), I welcome the amendment on mesothelioma complaints are not properly made, it has to be said that and the moves towards a review, if there is to be one. still, in a very small number of cases, people make false Oldham is not far from Rochdale and many of my allegations to advance some other dispute in which they constituents worked in the industry. Once people are are involved. That is why I err on the side of caution. diagnosed with the disease, they are, unfortunately, likely to be dead within 18 months. It would be outrageous I am pleased that the Government have accepted the if 25% of the damages were taken from them. I support point about a report to a GP, which is more than amendment 31, but I acknowledge the moves that the someone just saying to a GP, “He hit me.” There will be Government have made. some reason and some visible sign of why a woman has gone to her GP. I have no difficulty with that, nor with reporting abuse to a refuge. As I think I asked the Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I wish to Secretary of State, why on earth would a woman go to a place on record my gratitude to the Lords for their refuge if she had not been a victim of domestic violence? amendments and for their hard work. I also place on She is hardly likely to go to a refuge for a pleasant break record my gratitude to the Opposition Front-Bench away from home. She goes because she is undoubtedly team for all the hard work that they have done on all the victim and is taking concrete measures that support aspects of the Bill, and to my hon. Friends and some on her complaint. I support the Government on those the Government Benches who have fought against certain measures and congratulate them. provisions of the Bill. On mesothelioma, last week I made an off-the-cuff I welcome the Minister’s concession on industrial speech, even though, to be truthful, I knew little about diseases, including mesothelioma, and the fact that the the subject. I urged the Government to find an alternative Government will review the issue. I hope they will way to sort the matter out. They have done so and I am abandon the proposal to make victims contribute to the delighted to support them on that. lawyers’ costs if they are successful. I ask the Government to consider other industrial diseases that should be Ian Lucas: I thank the Minister for his letter today placed in the same category, such as industrial deafness, setting out the concession that has been made, and I am industrial blindness, severe spinal degradation, leukaemia, grateful to him and the Lord Chancellor for that concession. cirrhosis of the liver and other organ damage. 845 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 846 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Yasmin Qureshi] Bruce, rh Malcolm Hancock, Matthew Buckland, Mr Robert Hands, Greg It cannot be said that people suffering from those Burley, Mr Aidan Harper, Mr Mark conditions are out to make a quick buck. Although we Burns, Conor Harrington, Richard support the idea of a limit on insurance claims or the Burns, rh Mr Simon Harris, Rebecca suggestion that the victim should pay a contribution Burt, Lorely Hart, Simon Byles, Dan Harvey, Nick towards the damages, it is disgraceful that the provisions Cable, rh Vince Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan should apply to people affected by serious illnesses. To Cairns, Alun Heath, Mr David say to people who suffering from such illnesses, “By the Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Heaton-Harris, Chris way, once you have gone through the process of proving Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hemming, John your case, your lawyers will have to take their costs from Chishti, Rehman Henderson, Gordon your damages” cannot be right. It is plainly unfair and Clark, rh Greg Hendry, Charles unjust. I can see that the Lord Chancellor disagrees Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hinds, Damian with me. If I am wrong and he wishes to intervene, I am Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hoban, Mr Mark more than happy to give way. Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hollingbery, George Coffey, Dr Thérèse Holloway, Mr Adam The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Collins, Damian Hopkins, Kris (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I just want to say that the lawyers Colvile, Oliver Horwood, Martin do not have to take 25% of the compensation. All the Cox, Mr Geoffrey Howarth, Mr Gerald Crockart, Mike Howell, John costs are recovered from the defendants in a case that Crouch, Tracey Hughes, rh Simon has been won. It is only those costs that are irrecoverable Davey, rh Mr Edward Huhne, rh Chris from the defendants that can sometimes be recovered. Davies, Glyn Hunter, Mark In a straightforward case there is no reason for anything Davies, Philip Hurd, Mr Nick to be recovered over and above that, and lawyers should Davis, rh Mr David Jackson, Mr Stewart not automatically take 25% of the claim and say that it de Bois, Nick James, Margot is for their costs. Dinenage, Caroline Javid, Sajid Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Yasmin Qureshi: But there is nothing to stop them Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Gareth doing so. The legislation should be simple and Drax, Richard Johnson, Joseph straightforward: a person’s compensation, whatever it Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Andrew might be, should be theirs and the legal costs should be Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr David a separate item that they can claim for. If I am awarded Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr Marcus Ellis, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel damages worth £100,000, I should get £100,000 and not Ellison, Jane Kelly, Chris have to pay £25,000 to someone else. Any legal costs Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kirby, Simon should be paid separately by defendants’ insurance Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Mr Greg companies, which are incredibly rich and have loads of Evans, Graham Kwarteng, Kwasi money that they can— Evans, Jonathan Laing, Mrs Eleanor Evennett, Mr David Lancaster, Mark 5.40 pm Fabricant, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew One hour having elapsed since the commencement of Fallon, Michael Latham, Pauline proceedings on the Lords message, the debate was interrupted Farron, Tim Laws, rh Mr David Field, Mark Leadsom, Andrea (Programme Order, 17 April). Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Jessica The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Dr Phillip proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83G), Francois, rh Mr Mark Lefroy, Jeremy That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 1B. Freeman, George Leslie, Charlotte Freer, Mike Letwin, rh Mr Oliver The House divided: Ayes 300, Noes 222. Fullbrook, Lorraine Lewis, Brandon Division No. 535] [5.40 pm Fuller, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Garnier, Mr Edward Lloyd, Stephen AYES Garnier, Mark Lord, Jonathan Gauke, Mr David Loughton, Tim Adams, Nigel Beresford, Sir Paul George, Andrew Luff, Peter Afriyie, Adam Berry, Jake Gibb, Mr Nick Lumley, Karen Aldous, Peter Bingham, Andrew Gilbert, Stephen Macleod, Mary Alexander, rh Danny Birtwistle, Gordon Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Main, Mrs Anne Amess, Mr David Blackman, Bob Glen, John Maude, rh Mr Francis Andrew, Stuart Blackwood, Nicola Goldsmith, Zac Maynard, Paul Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Blunt, Mr Crispin Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Jason Bacon, Mr Richard Boles, Nick Gove, rh Michael McCartney, Karl Baker, Norman Bone, Mr Peter Graham, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Baker, Steve Bottomley, Sir Peter Baldry, Tony Bradley, Karen Grant, Mrs Helen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Baldwin, Harriett Brady, Mr Graham Greening, rh Justine McPartland, Stephen Barclay, Stephen Brake, rh Tom Griffiths, Andrew McVey, Esther Barker, Gregory Bray, Angie Gyimah, Mr Sam Menzies, Mark Baron, Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Halfon, Robert Metcalfe, Stephen Barwell, Gavin Bridgen, Andrew Hames, Duncan Miller, Maria Bebb, Guto Browne, Mr Jeremy Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Benyon, Richard Bruce, Fiona Hammond, Stephen Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew 847 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 848 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Moore, rh Michael Smith, Miss Chloe Benn, rh Hilary Goggins, rh Paul Mordaunt, Penny Smith, Henry Berger, Luciana Goodman, Helen Morgan, Nicky Smith, Julian Betts, Mr Clive Greatrex, Tom Morris, Anne Marie Smith, Sir Robert Blackman-Woods, Roberta Green, Kate Morris, James Soames, rh Nicholas Blears, rh Hazel Greenwood, Lilian Mosley, Stephen Soubry, Anna Blenkinsop, Tom Gwynne, Andrew Mowat, David Spencer, Mr Mark Blomfield, Paul Hain, rh Mr Peter Mulholland, Greg Stanley, rh Sir John Blunkett, rh Mr David Hamilton, Mr David Mundell, rh David Stephenson, Andrew Brennan, Kevin Hamilton, Fabian Munt, Tessa Stevenson, John Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hanson, rh Mr David Murray, Sheryll Stewart, Bob Brown, Mr Russell Harris, Mr Tom Murrison, Dr Andrew Stewart, Iain Bryant, Chris Havard, Mr Dai Neill, Robert Stewart, Rory Buck, Ms Karen Healey, rh John Newmark, Mr Brooks Streeter, Mr Gary Burden, Richard Hendrick, Mark Newton, Sarah Stride, Mel Burnham, rh Andy Hepburn, Mr Stephen Nokes, Caroline Stuart, Mr Graham Byrne, rh Mr Liam Heyes, David Norman, Jesse Stunell, Andrew Campbell, Mr Alan Hilling, Julie Nuttall, Mr David Sturdy, Julian Campbell, Mr Gregory Hodge, rh Margaret Offord, Mr Matthew Swales, Ian Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Ollerenshaw, Eric Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Caton, Martin Hoey, Kate Opperman, Guy Swinson, Jo Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hopkins, Kelvin Ottaway, Richard Swire, rh Mr Hugo Clark, Katy Howarth, rh Mr George Paice, rh Mr James Syms, Mr Robert Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hunt, Tristram Parish, Neil Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Clwyd, rh Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Patel, Priti Teather, Sarah Coaker, Vernon Jackson, Glenda Paterson, rh Mr Owen Timpson, Mr Edward Coffey, Ann James, Mrs Siân C. Pawsey, Mark Tomlinson, Justin Cooper, rh Yvette Jamieson, Cathy Penning, Mike Tredinnick, David Crausby, Mr David Johnson, rh Alan Penrose, John Truss, Elizabeth Creagh, Mary Johnson, Diana Perry, Claire Turner, Mr Andrew Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham Phillips, Stephen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Cruddas, Jon Jones, Susan Elan Pincher, Christopher Uppal, Paul Cryer, John Jowell, rh Tessa Poulter, Dr Daniel Vaizey, Mr Edward Cunningham, Alex Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Prisk, Mr Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh Cunningham, Mr Jim Keeley, Barbara Pritchard, Mark Vickers, Martin Cunningham, Tony Kendall, Liz Pugh, John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Curran, Margaret Khan, rh Sadiq Raab, Mr Dominic Walker, Mr Charles Danczuk, Simon Lammy, rh Mr David Randall, rh Mr John Walker, Mr Robin Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lavery, Ian Reckless, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben David, Mr Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Redwood, rh Mr John Ward, Mr David Davies, Geraint Leslie, Chris Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wharton, James De Piero, Gloria Lewis, Mr Ivan Reevell, Simon Wheeler, Heather Denham, rh Mr John Lloyd, Tony Reid, Mr Alan White, Chris Dobson, rh Frank Long, Naomi Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Whittaker, Craig Docherty, Thomas Lucas, Caroline Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Ian Robertson, Hugh Wiggin, Bill Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mactaggart, Fiona Rogerson, Dan Willetts, rh Mr David Doran, Mr Frank Mahmood, Shabana Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Dowd, Jim Malhotra, Seema Rudd, Amber Williams, Roger Doyle, Gemma Mann, John Ruffley, Mr David Williams, Stephen Dromey, Jack Marsden, Mr Gordon Russell, Sir Bob Williamson, Gavin Dugher, Michael McCabe, Steve Rutley, David Willott, Jenny Eagle, Ms Angela McCann, Mr Michael Sandys, Laura Wilson, Mr Rob Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry Scott, Mr Lee Wollaston, Dr Sarah Edwards, Jonathan McCrea, Dr William Selous, Andrew Wright, Jeremy Efford, Clive McDonagh, Siobhain Elliott, Julie McDonnell, John Shapps, rh Grant Wright, Simon Sharma, Alok Ellman, Mrs Louise McFadden, rh Mr Pat Young, rh Sir George Shelbrooke, Alec Engel, Natascha McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Zahawi, Nadhim Shepherd, Mr Richard Evans, Chris McKechin, Ann Simmonds, Mark Tellers for the Ayes: Field, rh Mr Frank McKenzie, Mr Iain Simpson, Mr Keith James Duddridge and Fitzpatrick, Jim McKinnell, Catherine Skidmore, Chris Stephen Crabb Flello, Robert Meacher, rh Mr Michael Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian NOES Flynn, Paul Michael, rh Alun Fovargue, Yvonne Miliband, rh Edward Abbott, Ms Diane Ashworth, Jonathan Francis, Dr Hywel Miller, Andrew Abrahams, Debbie Austin, Ian Galloway, George Mitchell, Austin Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Bailey, Mr Adrian Gapes, Mike Morden, Jessica Alexander, Heidi Bain, Mr William Gardiner, Barry Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Ali, Rushanara Balls, rh Ed Gilmore, Sheila Morris, Grahame M. Allen, Mr Graham Barron, rh Mr Kevin Glindon, Mrs Mary (Easington) Anderson, Mr David Bell, Sir Stuart Godsiff, Mr Roger Mudie, Mr George 849 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 850 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Munn, Meg Smith, Nick Brazier, Mr Julian Griffiths, Andrew Murphy, rh Mr Jim Smith, Owen Bridgen, Andrew Gyimah, Mr Sam Murphy, rh Paul Spellar, rh Mr John Browne, Mr Jeremy Halfon, Robert Murray, Ian Straw, rh Mr Jack Bruce, Fiona Hames, Duncan Nandy, Lisa Stringer, Graham Bruce, rh Malcolm Hammond, Stephen Nash, Pamela Stuart, Ms Gisela Buckland, Mr Robert Hancock, Matthew O’Donnell, Fiona Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Burley, Mr Aidan Hands, Greg Owen, Albert Tami, Mark Burns, Conor Harper, Mr Mark Perkins, Toby Thomas, Mr Gareth Burns, rh Mr Simon Harrington, Richard Phillipson, Bridget Thornberry, Emily Burt, Lorely Harris, Rebecca Pound, Stephen Timms, rh Stephen Byles, Dan Hart, Simon Qureshi, Yasmin Trickett, Jon Cable, rh Vince Harvey, Nick Reed, Mr Jamie Turner, Karl Cairns, Alun Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Reeves, Rachel Twigg, Derek Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Heath, Mr David Reynolds, Emma Twigg, Stephen Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Heaton-Harris, Chris Reynolds, Jonathan Umunna, Mr Chuka Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John Riordan, Mrs Linda Vaz, rh Keith Clark, rh Greg Henderson, Gordon Ritchie, Ms Margaret Vaz, Valerie Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hendry, Charles Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Walley, Joan Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hinds, Damian Rotheram, Steve Watson, Mr Tom Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark Roy, Mr Frank Watts, Mr Dave Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hollingbery, George Roy, Lindsay Whitehead, Dr Alan Collins, Damian Holloway, Mr Adam Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Wicks, rh Malcolm Colvile, Oliver Hopkins, Kris Sarwar, Anas Williams, Hywel Cox, Mr Geoffrey Horwood, Martin Seabeck, Alison Wilson, Phil Crabb, Stephen Howarth, Mr Gerald Shannon, Jim Winnick, Mr David Crockart, Mike Howell, John Sharma, Mr Virendra Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Crouch, Tracey Hughes, rh Simon Sheerman, Mr Barry Wood, Mike Davey, rh Mr Edward Huhne, rh Chris Shuker, Gavin Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Davies, Glyn Hunter, Mark Simpson, David Wright, David Davies, Philip Hurd, Mr Nick Skinner, Mr Dennis Wright, Mr Iain Davis, rh Mr David Jackson, Mr Stewart Slaughter, Mr Andy Tellers for the Noes: de Bois, Nick James, Margot Smith, rh Mr Andrew Lyn Brown and Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Javid, Sajid Smith, Angela Nic Dakin Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jenkin, Mr Bernard Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Gareth Drax, Richard Johnson, Joseph Question accordingly agreed to. Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Andrew The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr David necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr Marcus at that time (Standing Order No. 83G). Ellis, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Ellison, Jane Kelly, Chris Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kirby, Simon Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Mr Greg Schedule 1 Eustice, George Kwarteng, Kwasi Evans, Graham Laing, Mrs Eleanor CIVIL LEGAL SERVICES Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Evennett, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Motion made, and Question put, That this House Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline disagrees with Lords amendments 2B and 196B.— Fallon, Michael Laws, rh Mr David (Mr Djanogly.) Farron, Tim Leadsom, Andrea Field, Mark Lee, Jessica The House divided: Ayes 298, Noes 227. Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Dr Phillip Division No. 536] [5.54 pm Fox,rhDrLiam Leech, Mr John Francois, rh Mr Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Freeman, George Leslie, Charlotte AYES Freer, Mike Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Adams, Nigel Bebb, Guto Fullbrook, Lorraine Lewis, Brandon Afriyie, Adam Benyon, Richard Fuller, Richard Lloyd, Stephen Aldous, Peter Beresford, Sir Paul Garnier, Mr Edward Lord, Jonathan Alexander, rh Danny Berry, Jake Garnier, Mark Loughton, Tim Amess, Mr David Bingham, Andrew Gauke, Mr David Luff, Peter Andrew, Stuart Birtwistle, Gordon George, Andrew Lumley, Karen Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Blackman, Bob Gibb, Mr Nick Macleod, Mary Bacon, Mr Richard Blackwood, Nicola Gilbert, Stephen Main, Mrs Anne Baker, Norman Blunt, Mr Crispin Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Maude, rh Mr Francis Baker, Steve Boles, Nick Glen, John Maynard, Paul Baldry, Tony Bone, Mr Peter Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Jason Baldwin, Harriett Bottomley, Sir Peter Gove, rh Michael McCartney, Karl Barclay, Stephen Bradley, Karen Graham, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Barker, Gregory Brady, Mr Graham Grant, Mrs Helen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Baron, Mr John Brake, rh Tom Gray, Mr James McPartland, Stephen Barwell, Gavin Bray, Angie Greening, rh Justine McVey, Esther 851 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 852 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Menzies, Mark Skidmore, Chris Barron, rh Mr Kevin Gapes, Mike Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Miss Chloe Bell, Sir Stuart Gardiner, Barry Miller, Maria Smith, Henry Benn, rh Hilary Gilmore, Sheila Mills, Nigel Smith, Julian Berger, Luciana Glindon, Mrs Mary Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Smith, Sir Robert Betts, Mr Clive Godsiff, Mr Roger Moore, rh Michael Soames, rh Nicholas Blackman-Woods, Goggins, rh Paul Mordaunt, Penny Soubry, Anna Roberta Goodman, Helen Morgan, Nicky Spencer, Mr Mark Blears, rh Hazel Greatrex, Tom Morris, Anne Marie Stanley, rh Sir John Blenkinsop, Tom Green, Kate Morris, James Stephenson, Andrew Blomfield, Paul Greenwood, Lilian Mosley, Stephen Stevenson, John Blunkett, rh Mr David Gwynne, Andrew Mowat, David Stewart, Bob Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hain, rh Mr Peter Mundell, rh David Stewart, Iain Brennan, Kevin Hamilton, Mr David Munt, Tessa Stewart, Rory Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Sheryll Streeter, Mr Gary Brown, Mr Russell Hanson, rh Mr David Murrison, Dr Andrew Stride, Mel Bryant, Chris Harris, Mr Tom Neill, Robert Stuart, Mr Graham Buck, Ms Karen Havard, Mr Dai Newmark, Mr Brooks Stunell, Andrew Burden, Richard Healey, rh John Newton, Sarah Sturdy, Julian Burnham, rh Andy Hendrick, Mark Nokes, Caroline Swales, Ian Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hepburn, Mr Stephen Norman, Jesse Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Campbell, Mr Alan Heyes, David Nuttall, Mr David Swinson, Jo Campbell, Mr Gregory Hilling, Julie Offord, Mr Matthew Swire, rh Mr Hugo Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hodge, rh Margaret Ollerenshaw, Eric Syms, Mr Robert Caton, Martin Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Opperman, Guy Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hoey, Kate Ottaway, Richard Teather, Sarah Clark, Katy Hopkins, Kelvin Paice, rh Mr James Thurso, John Clarke, rh Mr Tom Howarth, rh Mr George Parish, Neil Timpson, Mr Edward Clwyd, rh Ann Hunt, Tristram Patel, Priti Tomlinson, Justin Coaker, Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tredinnick, David Coffey, Ann Jackson, Glenda Pawsey, Mark Truss, Elizabeth Cooper, rh Yvette James, Mrs Siân C. Penning, Mike Tyrie, Mr Andrew Crausby, Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Penrose, John Uppal, Paul Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Perry, Claire Vaizey, Mr Edward Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana Phillips, Stephen Vara, Mr Shailesh Cruddas, Jon Jones, Graham Pincher, Christopher Vickers, Martin Cryer, John Jones, Susan Elan Poulter, Dr Daniel Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Cunningham, Alex Jowell, rh Tessa Prisk, Mr Mark Walker, Mr Charles Cunningham, Mr Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Pritchard, Mark Walker, Mr Robin Cunningham, Tony Gerald Pugh, John Wallace, Mr Ben Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Raab, Mr Dominic Ward, Mr David Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Randall, rh Mr John Webb, Steve Darling, rh Mr Alistair Khan, rh Sadiq Reckless, Mark Wharton, James David, Mr Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John Wheeler, Heather Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Rees-Mogg, Jacob White, Chris De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Reevell, Simon Whittaker, Craig Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris Reid, Mr Alan Whittingdale, Mr John Dobson, rh Frank Lewis, Mr Ivan Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Wiggin, Bill Docherty, Thomas Lloyd, Tony Robertson, Hugh Willetts, rh Mr David Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Long, Naomi Rogerson, Dan Williams, Mr Mark Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Caroline Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Roger Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian Rudd, Amber Williams, Stephen Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona Ruffley, Mr David Williamson, Gavin Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Russell, Sir Bob Wilson, Mr Rob Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Rutley, David Wollaston, Dr Sarah Dugher, Michael Mann, John Sandys, Laura Wright, Jeremy Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Scott, Mr Lee Wright, Simon Selous, Andrew Edwards, Jonathan McCann, Mr Michael Young, rh Sir George Shapps, rh Grant Efford, Clive McCarthy, Kerry Zahawi, Nadhim Sharma, Alok Elliott, Julie McCrea, Dr William Shelbrooke, Alec Tellers for the Ayes: Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonagh, Siobhain Simmonds, Mark James Duddridge and Engel, Natascha McDonnell, John Simpson, Mr Keith Jenny Willott Esterson, Bill McFadden, rh Mr Pat Evans, Chris McGuire, rh Mrs Anne NOES Field, rh Mr Frank McKechin, Ann Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain Abbott, Ms Diane Anderson, Mr David Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine Abrahams, Debbie Ashworth, Jonathan Flint, rh Caroline Meacher, rh Mr Michael Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Austin, Ian Flynn, Paul Mearns, Ian Alexander, Heidi Bailey, Mr Adrian Fovargue, Yvonne Michael, rh Alun Ali, Rushanara Bain, Mr William Francis, Dr Hywel Miliband, rh Edward Allen, Mr Graham Balls, rh Ed Galloway, George Miller, Andrew 853 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 24 APRIL 2012 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 854 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Mitchell, Austin Smith, rh Mr Andrew Question accordingly agreed to. Moon, Mrs Madeleine Smith, Angela Lords amendments 2B and 196B disagreed to. Morden, Jessica Smith, Nick Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, Owen Morris, Grahame M. Spellar, rh Mr John Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): On (Easington) Straw, rh Mr Jack a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Secretary of Mudie, Mr George Stringer, Graham State for Culture, Media and Sport has announced on Mulholland, Greg Stuart, Ms Gisela Radio 4 within the last hour that he will make a statement Munn, Meg Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry to the House this afternoon, presumably arising from Murphy, rh Mr Jim Tami, Mark the contributions made to the Leveson inquiry. Has he Murphy, rh Paul Thomas, Mr Gareth made that request to you, has it been granted, and if so Murray, Ian Thornberry, Emily when will the House hear the statement? Nandy, Lisa Timms, rh Stephen Nash, Pamela Trickett, Jon Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): No message O’Donnell, Fiona Turner, Karl has been conveyed to me, and I know nothing of it. Owen, Albert Perkins, Toby Twigg, Derek Phillipson, Bridget Twigg, Stephen Before Clause 43 Pound, Stephen Umunna, Mr Resolved, Chuka Qureshi, Yasmin That this House insists on its disagreement with Lords Vaz, rh Keith Raynsford, rh Mr Nick amendment 31 and proposes its amendment (a) in lieu.— Reed, Mr Jamie Vaz, Valerie (Mr Djanogly.) Walley, Joan Reeves, Rachel Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Reynolds, Emma Watson, Mr Tom Reynolds, Jonathan Watts, Mr Dave Order No. 83H), That a Committee be appointed to Riordan, Mrs Linda Whitehead, Dr Alan draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing Ritchie, Ms Margaret Wicks, rh Malcolm to their amendments 1B, 2B and 196B; Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Williams, Hywel That Mr Jonathan Djanogly, Mr Shailesh Vara, Mr Andy Rotheram, Steve Wilson, Phil Slaughter, Yvonne Fovargue and Tom Brake be members Roy, Mr Frank Winnick, Mr David of the Committee; Roy, Lindsay Winterton, rh Ms Ruddock, rh Dame Joan That Mr Jonathan Djanogly be the Chair of the Rosie Committee; Sarwar, Anas Wood, Mike Seabeck, Alison Woodward, rh Mr That three be the quorum of the Committee. Shannon, Jim Shaun That the Committee do withdraw immediately.—(Jeremy Sharma, Mr Virendra Wright, David Wright.) Sheerman, Mr Barry Wright, Mr Iain Shuker, Gavin Question agreed to. Simpson, David Tellers for the Noes: Skinner, Mr Dennis Lyn Brown and Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be Slaughter, Mr Andy Nic Dakin reported and communicated to the Lords. 855 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 856 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Section 5 of the European Communities since the Maastricht treaty. I will set out later why the (Amendment) Act 1993 UK is treated differently in this process from other European Union member states, but there is nothing new in the information that we will supply and it has 6.8 pm been presented to the House. When the EU sought to revise its economic governance package, we were very The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark clear that, whereas other member states provide information Hoban): I beg to move, to the Commission in advance of their budget-setting That this House approves, for the purposes of section 5 of the process, the UK will provide it after our process. European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Government’s assessment as set out in the Budget Report, combined with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Economic and Fiscal Outlook, Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Does the which forms the basis of the UK’s Convergence Programme. Minister believe the UK is bound by the Maastricht I welcome this opportunity to debate the information rules that its deficit should be 3% per annum and no that will be provided to the European Commission this more, and that it should have a stock of debt of only year under section 5 of the European Communities 60% of national income? (Amendment) Act 1993. As in previous years, the Government will send to the Commission data on the UK’s economic and budgetary position, in line with our Mr Hoban: We are required to endeavour to achieve commitments under the EU stability and growth pact. the Maastricht criteria. A very different regime is in The Government will submit their convergence place for the UK because of the opt-out that John programme by 30 April, after debates in both Houses. It Major negotiated under the Maastricht treaty. We have explains our medium-term fiscal policies, as set out in been clear, as the economic governance package has the autumn statement, the Budget and the Office for developed in recent years, on preserving that opt-out Budget Responsibility’s forecasts, and it is drawn entirely and the different treatment for the UK as compared from previously published documents that have been with other European member states. One achievement presented to Parliament. It makes it clear that this is that we are not subject, for example, to the sanctions year’s Budget reinforces the Government’s determination regime to which other member states are subject. to return the UK to prosperity, and it reiterates our We jealously protect our particular position in the No. 1 priority of tackling the huge deficit that we process, as I am sure hon. Members on both sides of the inherited from the previous Government. House would want us to do. Clearly, were we to follow It is because of the decisive action this Government the Leader of the Opposition’s policy—he wants us to have taken to tackle that deficit since the June 2010 join the eurozone at some point—we would have to give Budget that we have secured and maintained the stability up those safeguards and protections. That is not a of the UK economy. Last month’s Budget builds on policy that this Government or the Conservative party those strong foundations, safeguarding our economic would support. stability; creating a fairer, more efficient and simpler tax system; and driving through reforms to unleash the Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Setting aside private sector enterprise and ambition that are critical my views on the Budget, which are probably not printable, to our recovery. is not talking about the stability and growth pact at this As the Chancellor said in his Budget speech, Britain time simply building castles in the air? We have neither will earn its way in the world, but we can succeed in that stability nor growth in any part of Europe at the moment. goal only if we continue to safeguard our economic It might be that we are waiting for things to turn, but stability, tackling the record deficit and debt we inherited even in Britain we face savage deflation if we do not from the previous Government. That is why this year’s change our policies. Budget has a neutral impact on the public finances, implementing fiscal consolidation as planned, and keeping us on course to achieve a balanced structural current Mr Hoban: Europe needs to tackle its fiscal deficit budget by 2016-17 and debt falling as a percentage of and put in place the policies that will lead to economic national income by the end of this Parliament in 2015-16. growth. One reason for such uncertainty in the eurozone Fiscal sustainability is the vital precondition for economic is that a series of imbalances have built up in different success, but we are doing much more to catalyse growth. European economies. It is important that we tackle First and foremost, we are undertaking far-reaching them and set out a very clear course for growth. I shall reform to ensure that our tax system is simple, predictable come later in my remarks to some of the actions that and fair, and that it supports work. the UK Government have led to ensure that the EU spends more time talking about growth and finding Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Given that the requirement ways in which we can accelerate economic progress in for the Government’s assessment was passed under the the European economies. Maastricht treaty, for which no one in the country Let me mention some of the measures we are taking voted, and that it must go to a Commission that no one at home that were set out in the Budget. We are committed in this country has elected, why does an independent to creating the most competitive tax system in the G20. British Parliament have to go through this procedure—this We are cutting the rate of corporation tax to 22% by charade—every year? 2014, which will be the lowest rate in the G7 and the fourth lowest in the G20. [Interruption.] The hon. Mr Hoban: We have signed up to certain aspects of Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) pre-empts the stability and growth pact. One precondition is that my remarks, because I was about to say that we will we present this information, as we have done every year remove the ineffective and uncompetitive top rate of tax. 857 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 858 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Mr Hoban] reforms, how can a cumulative 3% year-on-year reduction of budgets in southern Europe in countries such as I should say to the hon. Gentleman that I talk to Portugal, Greece and Italy possibly assist us in growing businesses that wish to grow and businesses that want our economy out of the recession of the past few years? to locate here in the UK. They commend the Government for the corporate tax reforms in which we have engaged. Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend needs to recognise that, In Treasury questions earlier, my right hon. Friend the in several countries that have a programme in place, Chancellor referred to remarks made by the chief executive there is a requirement to make structural reforms. A of GlaxoSmithKline, who responded positively to the number of member states are already embracing structural tax changes that we introduced. He is not alone—other reforms, tackling issues such as restrictions on the labour businesses are moving to the UK as a consequence of market and looking at ways to tackle the burden of our corporate tax arrangements. regulation. We are seeing the structural reform that Clearly, when we are trying to attract international goes hand in hand with fiscal consolidation to create a businessmen to work here in the UK, and if we want to stable and sustainable platform for economic growth. retain high-paid, talented business leaders here, the 50p Here in the UK, we are undergoing fiscal consolidation, tax rate is an issue. It is an outlying issue in G7 countries but at the same time we are engaging in supply-side and affects location decisions for businesses. Cutting reforms to help stimulate growth in the economy. I do the top rate of tax is therefore the right thing to do. We not see the two as mutually exclusive. Indeed, they need set out the cost—£100 million—in the Red Book and to go hand in hand if we are to deliver growth. highlighted measures that would raise five times that amount from the very wealthiest in society. Kelvin Hopkins: I shall reserve most of my remarks for later when I hope to have the chance to speak. That was a difficult decision, but I believe it was However, I must say that supply-side reforms are all the right one if we want the economy in this country to very well, but if there is no demand in the economy, it grow. As was mentioned earlier, one consequence of the will not grow but contract. higher rate that the previous Government introduced—they did not bother to introduce it in the first 12 years they Mr Hoban: It has been demonstrated time and again were in office—was that 20,000 people moved from the in a host of different economies that supply-side reforms UK to Switzerland. That demonstrates the negative are vital, because they reduce some of the costs on impact of a 50p rate. If we want to be competitive, we businesses and enable them to invest and improve need a competitive tax regime for both personal and productivity, and in that way they stimulate demand corporate taxes. and growth. Hon. Members are right to focus on events beyond Kelvin Hopkins: I do not believe that nonsense about our shores. As the Office for Budget Responsibility said people moving because of the top rate of tax. In France, in its March report, the socialist opposition have suggested a top tax rate of “the situation in the Euro area remains a major risk” 75% and said that if people move away because of it, plenty of other people who are just as talented will be to the UK’s economic forecast. More than 40% of our prepared to take their jobs because they will still earn a exports are to the euro area, and recent events in the lot of money. markets remind us that euro area countries need to make painful adjustments to their public finances and external deficits. It is a difficult path that they have to Mr Hoban: To be fair to the hon. Gentleman, I walk, although new Governments in the likes of Ireland, suspect he is one of the few Opposition Members who Portugal, Spain and Italy are walking it. That is the supported the 50p rate throughout the period of the logic of the single currency to which they are all committed, Labour Government, and is not one of the late converts and progress is being made. that many of his hon. Friends have become. The European Central Bank’s monetary loosening As I have said, it is important that we create the right has helped to stabilise the banking system, and the competitive conditions for business to flourish, and this trillion dollars pumped in through the long-term refinancing Government will continue to invest in our nation’s operation has been helpful. There has been progress in future. We have announced that we will take forward many stabilising Greece, and—as I have said—a number of of Alan Cook’s recommendations on roads and develop countries have announced important economic reforms. a national roads strategy; we have confirmed investment As well as these measures, important longer-term to provide ultrafast broadband to 10 cities across the reforms have been made since we last debated the UK, with a second wave of cities to be identified in convergence programme. Those reforms include a stronger, future; and we will continue to support the establishment more effective stability and growth pact following agreement of a new pension infrastructure platform to unlock an of the “six pack”in December 2011. A new macroeconomic initial £2 billion of investment by as early as 2013. imbalances procedure will provide an assessment of However, a return to prosperity in the UK depends potential economic risks across Europe, with sanctions not only on what is happening here, but on what happens for euro area countries that fail to take action. Importantly, beyond our shores. the Commission has put forward proposals to improve co-ordination of budgetary processes between euro area Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): My hon. countries. Friend makes a coherent argument, but we have been The treaty on stability, co-ordination and governance— told on many occasions that what happens in the eurozone the fiscal compact—was signed in March by 25 member is important for exports. Without any monetary stimulus, states and it also has the potential to embed stronger and without major fiscal changes or major structural rules on fiscal discipline. Together, these reforms represent 859 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 860 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 a stronger, reinforced system of economic governance Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend should recognise the for the EU and the euro area in particular. While many strong political consensus in the eurozone for the of these stronger measures may not be right for the UK, continuation of the euro. The actions of member states they can support stability in the single currency area. have sought to stabilise the situation in the eurozone, and that is why they have set up the European stability Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): mechanism and boosted it with funds to strengthen the Will the Minister give way? firewall. They are also looking at recapitalisation of banks and trying to stabilise the situation. The actions Mr Hoban: If I may, I will finish my paragraph as it of eurozone countries are attempts to reinforce the may clear up any misapprehensions that the hon. stability of the eurozone, and they have also embarked Gentleman has. on reforms to try to bring about closer fiscal integration, I would like to reassure the House that following and the fiscal compact is part of that. these reforms the UK is still not subject to sanctions under the strengthened stability and growth pact—the Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): Will the Minister EU treaty is clear that they apply only to EU area accept that even though we are not members of the countries. Unlike other countries, the UK will only eurozone, this country is still teetering on the brink of present its convergence programme to the Commission another recession? Does he also accept that the euro after the Budget is presented to Parliament—the procedure will continue for many decades to come—probably ad that we are following today. infinitum—albeit without some current members?

Graham Stringer: Does the Minister read the newspapers? Mr Hoban: I remind the hon. Gentleman that as a Has he not noticed that Europe is getting less and less consequence of the actions taken in the Budget one of politically stable and that many of the European economies the rating agencies, Standard & Poor’s, reaffirmed the are shrinking? Whatever titles are put on the policies, UK’s triple A rating—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member that is what is really happening. Would it not make for Nottingham East paid attention and read the sense for the Government and this country to support newspapers—he accused me of not doing so—he would an as stable as possible break-up of the euro, which have seen that post-Budget one of the big rating agencies would provide growth in Europe and in the United reaffirmed our credit rating with a stable outlook. Actions Kingdom? have been taken to stabilise the UK economy, and that is important. Mr Hoban: It would be inappropriate for the UK This is not a debate about the future of the eurozone Government to dictate the economic policies to be and whether individual members should be in or out, followed by those in the eurozone. Members of the because that is a matter for the national Governments eurozone have made it very clear that they wish to of those member states, not for us. What we cannot remain part of it, and there are even member states ignore is that the stability of the European economy is a queuing up to join it. Indeed, if we have an independent vital factor in determining the level of economic growth Scotland, it might consider joining the eurozone. There in the UK. As I said, 40% of our trade is with Europe. are challenges, but there is a strong political commitment We still export significant amounts to places such as in the eurozone for the euro to remain in place. Ireland and, historically, we have exported more to Ireland than we have to Brazil, Russia, India or China Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): The Minister is combined. It is important to recognise that jobs in all making a genuine argument in favour of stability, but our constituencies are dependent on trade with the the rise of the far right—and Marine Le Pen receiving European Union and the strength of European economies. one in five votes in France—shows that whatever was said before, when all these treaties were signed, may not Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): I agree entirely be current now. There is great unrest on the part of the with what the Minister has said about the need for public about what is being done in their name, both stability, not least for UK recovery. I also welcome what abroad and here. he said about the fiscal compact and the other measures being taken. Does he agree that if there is a legitimate Mr Hoban: It is not appropriate for any of us to debate in any country about growth versus austerity, it provide a running commentary on the French presidential is not—as some more excitable colleagues suggest—any elections, but it is important that Governments, whether indication of political instability in the eurozone, but inside or outside the euro, make their argument as to merely a debate about the direction of travel that a why they believe that the measures required to bring country’s economy might take? about fiscal stability and economic growth are necessary. Those arguments need to continue to be made, because Mr Hoban: The hon. Gentleman makes an important that is vital to Europe’s long-term interests. We will wait point. In any economy where there is economic change, and see what the outcome of the French presidential there will be a political debate, and that political debate election is and what the view of the new President is on is helpful. the fiscal compact. Mr Stewart Jackson: I thank the Minister for giving Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): What will the way; he is being his normal generous self. Do we not Minister tell the millions of people in the eurozone have a responsibility to the millions of young people in when it goes horribly wrong—as it will—and their lives southern Europe who are on the edge of penury and are ruined, given that we have had the chance, as has economic misery, essentially because of this institutionalised, been suggested, to rebalance the euro from a position of obdurate approach, principally from the Germans, and control? It will collapse. the failure to accept that the European Central Bank 861 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 862 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Mr Stewart Jackson] The Government will push for even more ambition, however, because a return to sustainable growth is the should be the lender of last resort? This political project, only way for EU member states to pay down their debts which the euro is, is plunging millions of working and exit the current crisis. It is essential that the Commission people in southern Europe into poverty for the next 10, uses EU-level policy levers fully to support growth, but 15 or 20 years. Surely we have a moral duty not to be member states must continue to take tough decisions to complicit. prioritise the most growth-enhancing reforms, matching the kind of ambition that the Government have demonstrated since coming to office, including in our Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend would, I think, be the most recent Budget. The Budget information we are first to criticise other member states seeking to lecture providing to the Commission in the convergence programme us on our economic policy, so we need to be careful not is part of the European semester process, now in its to lecture them either. As I said, there is the political second year, and will be something that the Commission will in the eurozone to keep the euro, and its actions are will look at. consistent with that. Whether through closer fiscal integration or increased firepower for the European Mr Redwood: Does the Minister think that, when the stability mechanism, those signs are there. The fiscal Commission reviews the British Government’s homework, compact is a significant step towards closer fiscal integration. it will say that we need to go further and faster with the cuts or endorse the Government’s programme?

Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The Minister Mr Hoban: I do not wish to pre-empt the Commission’s talks about the political will in Europe to continue with conclusion—it would be wrong to do so—but when the euro, but one wonders about the popular will among other international organisations have looked at the the peoples of Europe. He knows that the Irish Republic Budget and the Government’s path to fiscal reform, will shortly hold a referendum on these measures. Does they have clearly endorsed keeping to the path and he welcome that and would he encourage other countries sticking to the course. That is important. It has meant to go to their people and seek their views, as opposed to that we have retained the confidence of international the consensus among the political elites? markets, and interest rates are low as a consequence, which is to the benefit of households and businesses. That is vital to the programme of continued economic Mr Hoban: Different member states have different reform in the UK. constitutional requirements and different histories on It is important that we discuss these matters with the use of referendums, so it is not necessarily appropriate international partners and have a debate about economic for a politician here in Westminster to lecture others on policy in Europe, but at home we have to stick to the how to ratify treaty changes. path required to deliver the necessary reforms. The Budget builds on the Government’s ambition to create a Before I took the intervention from the hon. Member stable and prosperous economy, it shows our commitment for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer), who to fiscal consolidation and economic growth, and, along has now disappeared, I was talking about how the UK with the OBR’s forecast, forms the basis of the UK’s fits into the economic governance measures. We will convergence programme. We are taking the right path, present the convergence programme to the Commission and I hope that— after the Budget has been presented to Parliament— the process we are going through at the moment. The Kate Hoey rose— EU, alongside other international institutions such as the OECD and the International Monetary Fund, Mr Hoban: Oh, go on. can comment on the Budget, but, crucially, we are under no obligation to take action. It is up to the Kate Hoey: I want to be clear in my own mind, Government, not Brussels, to decide what action to take because obviously this is important. If the House was in the UK. to say no to this tonight and say, “Actually, we don’t think it’s got anything to do with the Commission what Of course, as the euro area moves towards closer we are doing in our independent country. We’re not part fiscal integration, we must remain vigilant to protect the of the eurozone,” what would be the repercussions? UK’s interests. Where matters are rightly for discussion What would it matter? or agreement by all 27 member states—for example, on the single market or financial services—they must be Mr Hoban: As I said, all the information in the agreed by all 27 member states. In case there is any convergence programme is already in the public domain. doubt, I can reassure Members that the UK remains at It was published at the time of the Budget by both the the heart of the EU’s economic debate. It is because of Treasury and the OBR, in accordance with our the Prime Minister’s recent letter with 11 other Heads of commitments. State or Government ahead of the March European Council that the Council conclusions were agreed Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op) rose— with a commitment to ambitious structural reforms at the EU level. That included concrete Council conclusions Mr Hoban: No, I will allow the hon. Gentleman to on strengthening the single market and its governance; make his own contribution in his distinctive style, and completing the digital single market by 2015; making doubtless I will have a chance to wind up and respond further progress in reducing administrative burdens; to the points made. However, I have gone on for nearly and boosting trade by removing trade barriers and 30 minutes, and other hon. Members want to take part. ensuring better market access and investment conditions. I will now allow him to do so. 863 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 864 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 6.37 pm This is an opportunity not only to take stock of the Government’s approach to the economy as a whole but Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall to look at their analysis of what is happening. We know (Kate Hoey) asked an extremely pertinent question, that they are pursuing failing policies on jobs, economic and I want to come back to it later. First, however, I growth and deficit reduction. The Minister proudly commend hon. Members from both sides and all parties defended the cut in the 50p top rate of income tax for for spotting that this debate was so relevant. The motion, the wealthiest 1% in society. The Government are giving as framed, does not leap out from the Order Paper, and a tax cut of about £40,000 to millionaires at the expense when hon. Members go to the Vote Office to find these of pensioners and working people. Is it any wonder that convergence documents, they are met with a little their popularity is falling precipitously as a result? I am mystification. Let us turn to page minus-2, so to speak, glad to have an opportunity, every time the Minister of the Budget Red Book. speaks at the Dispatch Box, to remind those watching these proceedings of the Government’s priorities. Living Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): This is last standards are being squeezed, and the VAT rise is year’s speech. hitting people hard, as are the cuts to tax credits and the cost of living generally. Independent experts say that a Chris Leslie: Indeed, I was here this time last year typical family will be worse off by £511 this year, but making a very similar, uncannily parallel speech, but I that is the Government’s choice; they want to give will point it out again. Underneath where it talks about millionaires that advantage. Crown copyright, the ISBN number and where it says: “Printed on paper containing 75% recycled fibre”, The motion relates to the Government’s assessment of the economy. Such a poor analysis as that presented it reads: in their Budget Red Book betrays either extreme wishful “The Budget report, combined with the Office for Budget thinking on the part of the Treasury or, more likely, a Responsibility’s…fiscal outlook, constitutes the Government’s dangerous detachment from the key decisions that Ministers assessment under section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993”. need to confront. Their understanding of what is happening to business, employment and the cost of living is far That is relevant to today’s debate. It is written in very removed from the experience of the vast majority of the small font for those who might have difficulty reading public. it. It mentions the European Communities (Amendment) Act, which sounds likely a very British piece of legislation, I urge all hon. Members to look at the facts and to but, being eagle-eyed, hon. Members will have spotted examine the way in which the Budget Red Book is so that all that Act does is refer to the Maastricht treaty, detached from reality. On page 11, the Government article 2 of which states: claim that growth is “The Community shall have as its task…a harmonious and “strengthening over the forecast horizon”. balanced development of economic activities, sustainable and non-inflationary growth”. Growth was minus 0.2% in the last quarter for which we have figures, and the economy has been flatlining for a Of course, it also relates to article 103, which talks long time. It has performed very poorly since the spending about economic policies being a “matter of common review, while that of the United States has grown by concern” that should be co-ordinated within the Council. more than 2%. The Office for Budget Responsibility is These are the sorts of words that some find difficult to predicting growth of just 0.8% in 2012. Last year, in this stomach, but the article continues: very debate, we heard that the OBR was forecasting “For the purpose of this multilateral surveillance, Member growth of 1.7% in 2012, and that was after several States shall forward information to the Commission about important downgrades. There is clear evidence that the Government’s measures taken by them in the field of their economic policy”. assessment of the economy is entirely out of touch with In a sense, the right hon. Member for Wokingham reality. The OECD is predicting good things for the (Mr Redwood) was right to say that this is the homework United States, Germany and Japan, which are all predicted that has been set by the European Commission, and we to grow faster than the United Kingdom this year. are completing our homework today. What is worse is that on page 15, the Red Book states Mark Hendrick: We will oppose the Government that we will experience tonight, but we will do so not because we disagree with “positive growth, consistent with experience from past financial the European Union having a look at our Budget—these crises”. multilateral surveillance procedures have been going on Last year’s Treasury Red Book said that we were expecting for the best part of 20 years—but because we disagree a recovery that was with the measures in the Budget. “in line with previous recoveries”. Chris Leslie: People will have their different reasons I know that my hon. Friends who are students of these for opposing the motion, and my hon. Friend is right to matters will be familiar with the charts and analysis state his reason for opposing it. My reason for opposing produced by the National Institute of Economic and it is that, essentially, it asks the House to approve the Social Research and others that compare the progress Government’s assessment of the economy. That is the of recessions and recoveries across the decades, from nub of the question. We are being asked to approve the great depression to the recessions in the 1970s, 1980s the Budget Red Book as their assessment of the economy. and 1990s. When we consider our present position, we Sadly, we know that the Government are out of touch see that we are still 4% off the pre-recession peak. We not only with the public but with economic reality. have not yet clambered out of the hole. This is proving Their grip on what one might call the actuality of the to be one of the longest and deepest financial crises, real economy leaves a great deal to be desired. and the Government have failed to make any headway 865 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 866 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Chris Leslie] That is why we have consistently expressed our scepticism about the Chancellor’s decision to cave in and give extra in ensuring our recovery. Their claims that we are in a resources—British taxpayers’ money—to the IMF, which parallel situation to previous recessions and financial we all know is going to be used for that particular crises prove that they are not in touch with reality. purpose. We like the IMF for its work with other countries in the developing world, and of course we Mrs Main: I note that the shadow Minister is making want a strong IMF, but we should not be letting those a principled argument and that he disagrees with the wealthy eurozone countries off the hook. They need to figures. If he did agree with the Budget figures, would confront those issues. he still feel that we had to submit them for scrutiny? We are a sovereign country. Do we really need our homework Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I apologise for coming to be checked by Europe? in late, but I have just got off the plane from Denmark Chris Leslie: That is an interesting question. Obviously, where I was meeting the chairmen of the scrutiny I believe in the rule of law, and there is a legal obligation committees of all the other national Parliaments of the on Her Majesty’s Government to abide by the treaties. European Union. We have recently witnessed the resignation This is where we come back to the question that my of the Dutch Government and the consequences of the hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall asked earlier. She French elections. Would the House be interested to asked the Minister what the consequences would be if know that there is deep disquiet behind the scenes the motion were not passed by the House today. That is throughout the whole of Europe, as I discovered through the key question that all hon. Members should be speaking to those chairmen in the last couple of days? pressing the Minister on when he winds up the debate. I will give way to him now if he can answer it. What Chris Leslie: I am afraid that I am not surprised to would be the consequences for us if we did not vote in hear that that is the case. The hon. Gentleman spends a favour of the motion today? I am happy to give way to great deal of time and effort monitoring how these him. For the reasons that I have suggested, the Government’s issues progress. Personally, I feel we need to find ways of poor assessment of the economy does not inspire me to supporting and stabilising the situation in the eurozone, vote for the motion. I do not see why we would want to but I do not think that the Government’s strategy is the support their woeful assessment. The Minister is not right way to do that. However, I digress. giving us a reason for voting for it. Mr Stewart Jackson I feel it appropriate to give the Kelvin Hopkins rose— shadow Minister some friendly advice. One reason why my party was not credible on the economy until quite a Chris Leslie: Perhaps my hon. Friend can help. few years after we lost the election was that in many respects we did not face up to the fact of the legacy we Kelvin Hopkins: I entirely agree with not submitting left. I remind him that he really should be looking at the the report to the European Union, but is not the growth wider picture of Europe rather than focusing on the situation even worse than my hon. Friend suggests? national situation here. The fact is that real-terms public Even as we speak, the eurozone is plunging into a expenditure rose by 53% from £450 billion to £700 billion deeper crisis. Because of the weakness of the euro, the between 2000 and 2010. His party ran a structural pound is unfortunately strengthening against the euro, deficit in times of economic growth. That is the situation which is going to make it harder for our manufacturers in which we find ourselves now. to export. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury said yesterday that we needed to make even more cuts than those already planned. So far, we have experienced only Chris Leslie: I obviously disagree with the hon. about a quarter of the planned public expenditure cuts. Gentleman’s assessment, but he made an important Is not the situation far worse than my hon. Friend point earlier about the plight of those who are suffering suggests? as a result of the austerity approach being applied in southern European countries in particular. I worry Chris Leslie: We have a blinkered and, in many ways, greatly about that; it is a matter of concern. It is also a deluded approach to austerity—or über-austerity, as concern, however, for our constituents here in the UK. some might characterise it—which is hurting not only We take a different approach on principle about the in the eurozone but here as well. What angers many right ways to repair our economy. We believe that a people is that the Government’s approach to helping stronger emphasis on growth is necessary to generate the eurozone out of its difficulties is to throw money at revenues; it is not just about public expenditure cuts, it. Technically, that money is going to the International which do not provide the way out of the situation. I also Monetary Fund, but everyone knows that it is all about disagree that the motion is a general debate about the eurozone bail-out funds. We are giving a further £10 billion state of the European economies. We are debating loan, even though the Americans and the Canadians whether the Red Book provides a right, accurate, fair are all saying that we should stand firm and negotiate and good assessment of the state of the British economy with the wealthy eurozone countries, including Germany, such that we can submit it, as we are required to do by and make them dip deeper into their own pockets. If the treaties, to the European Commission. I am simply they do not do that, and if Britain, China, America and following the strictures placed on us by the Maastricht others provide the money, those eurozone countries will treaty. not do the deep, serious thinking that they need to do, and they will not take the consequences of their situation Stewart Hosie: That is the key point. The hon. Gentleman within the single currency. They will not put up a proper quoted from the 1993 Act—a Tory Act, of course— firewall, as they ought to do; they will not build what about the need to submit information to the European has been characterised as the “big bazooka”. Commission, including information on industrial 867 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 868 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 investment. We have seen forecasts of 6.7% business in the last year and that youth unemployment is at a investment growth ending up being a negative 0.8% record high. My hon. Friends do not need me to repeat out-turn. He is thus absolutely right that the Red Book these figures. is not credible in terms of the objective set out in the On inflation, the Red Book says that 1993 Act. “inflationary pressures, which the OBR considers to have been the main drag on UK growth over the past 18 months, have Chris Leslie: It is that lack of credibility that makes started to abate, easing the pressures on household incomes and me want to oppose the motion. The hon. Gentleman improving the outlook for consumers.” picked up on the point about business investment. I Well, consumer prices index inflation rose, I think, in encourage hon. Members to turn to page 16 of the Red the last month. We are at around 3.25%. We should not Book, which says: forget that the Chancellor’s target for the Governor of “business investment will pick up and make an increasingly the Bank of England is 2% inflation. Indeed, Paul strong contribution to growth in each year of the forecast as Tucker, the deputy governor of the Bank of England, confidence builds and credit conditions ease”. warned this week that inflation is likely to stay above Just yesterday, the trends in lending data came out from 3% for much of 2012. Again, even on inflation, the the Bank of England. Year on year, net lending to all Government’s assessment of the economy is just not businesses—small and medium-sized enterprises in correct. There is no mention of consumer confidence in particular—has fallen in every single month since the the analysis. Although there is a section on “Investment Government took office. That is despite Project Merlin and confidence”on page 14, it does not mention consumer and all the attempts at credit easing, which have still not confidence at all. The consumer confidence indices have come into effect and will do nothing to help credit been down and are worsening at minus 31%. availability. Last year, they said in their document that Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. “Credit conditions have shown signs of stabilisation.” Friend talks about confidence. Did he see the comments That has not come to pass, so I have no confidence that of Barney Frank, a leading US congressman, when he their current propositions will come to pass either. talked yesterday about this Government’s obsession On borrowing, page 12 of the Red Book claims that with austerity measures, which went right to the heart we are heading for of the credibility of whether or not they could reduce the deficit? Coming from Washington as he did, he was “£11 billion lower over the forecast period than was projected at clear that this Government’s key measure for reducing Autumn Statement 2011”, the deficit in their period of office was counter-productive. which is sophistry because we know that in the spending review figures from October 2010, the Government Chris Leslie: Indeed. All across the globe, developed projected a set of borrowing statistics that have had to countries are realising that a strategy focused singularly be ripped up, because we are on a trend that takes us on austerity alone will not be the solution. We must into £150 billion of further borrowing over the lifetime have a greater focus on growth and job creation as a way of this Parliament. The new borrowing figures out this of generating revenues. morning confirm that particular trend. That is where I have spoken for too long. Labour Members believe things are going. that this motion is flawed because the Government’s The Chancellor keeps restating that the UK is “a safe assessment of the economy is poor. Others will have haven”, although he slipped a little bit today in saying their own reasons for voting against it. I want to hear that it was “a safer haven”. There he was in Washington the Minister’s justification for the motion and to find this weekend, saying that the UK has “solved our out why it would be cataclysmic if it did not go through. problems”. That is our Chancellor’s assessment of our The consequences of that are a key point. As I see it, the economy. Such dangerous complacency beggars belief, Government misunderstand the economy, they are and I think that it is a sign of arrogance. misreading the growth prospects of the UK and they are misconstruing what is happening in the employment Stewart Hosie: The hon. Gentleman picks up on our markets and business investment. I therefore urge the Chancellor’s reference to “a safer haven”. Does he think House to reject this mistaken assessment of the prospects that could be because the debt figures on the treaty for our economy. calculation are no longer expected to peak at 87% of gross domestic product as was forecast a year ago, but 6.58 pm at 93% of GDP—a catastrophically high figure? Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I have some sympathy with the Minister in this debate, which is Chris Leslie: Of course, that is because of the about colossal issues, such as the future of economic Government’s record of high unemployment, with statistics prosperity throughout the European Union and its showing not much improvement, an increase in welfare impact on our own economy, yet it is also a rather costs and so forth. All those things are a drag on public absurd debate. Successive Governments have felt that expenditure; they are making things no better. That is they have to table documentation and figures to the the result of the Government’s misguided strategy. On European Union, but they are embarrassed by that fact the wider issue of employment and unemployment, I because they know that many of us feel that it is this challenge hon. Members to find much in the Red Book Parliament, which answers to the British people, that that provides an assessment of what is going to happen should debate and settle these issues, and that what we to them. We know that we have the highest unemployment are doing is none of the EU’s business. If we do a good in 17 years, with 2.67 million people on the dole. We job, we will stay in office; if we do a bad job, we will be know the story that long-term unemployment doubled thrown out of office, and the British people will rightly 869 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 870 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Mr John Redwood] that tax revenues would be £171 billion a year more in year 5 than they had been in the last Labour year. The choose another group of people as they decided to do in Government have now had to reduce that figure a bit 2010 as this crisis developed. We think that that is the because—as other Members have pointed out—the right approach. expected growth has not been forthcoming, for a variety I must tell my hon. Friend the Minister that if the of reasons. Opposition had tabled a motion suggesting that the We need to promote growth vigorously and actively, House should tell Brussels that we would no longer which is common ground between the Government, send it these documents, I would probably vote with the coalition Back Benchers and many Opposition Members. Opposition, because I would consider that a sensible The argument, surely, concerns what measures are most way of trying to send an obvious message to Brussels. likely to bring that about. It appears that over the last However, we are being invited to spend more time four years both Governments have operated policies debating the crucial topic of what kind of economic involving actively increasing public spending, with the policy would best promote growth and stability in our exception of capital spend—certainly overall spending own country, and what contribution wider economic has risen—and actively promoting massive borrowing, policies can make to stability and growth in the European while at the same time the economy has bombed very Union as a whole. badly. I am not suggesting that that is causal, but it The description of the pact that we are debating as a should lead Opposition Members to ask why that fiscal stability and growth pact to be a grotesque bad-taste injection—massive borrowing and an increase in current joke at the expense of the European peoples. It is clear public spending—has not done the job. There seems to from the way in which it now operates in the euroland be some disconnection between the remedy that they countries that it is actually an instability and recession recommend and the reality of what is happening. pact. It is a pact for mutually assured deflation. It is When we look at the way in which other countries intended to do more damage at the very point in an have pulled out of crises of this kind, and, indeed, the economic cycle when an economy is performing very way in which Britain has pulled out of similar but, badly, to withdraw spending power from both the private perhaps, less aggressively damaging crises than the one and the public sector in an economy with too little that we inherited, we see that there is nearly always a demand, and to take jobs away in an economy with a period during which public spending must be reduced problem of mass youth unemployment. or controlled quite strongly to make room for a private sector recovery, and that a series of measures to promote Mark Hendrick: I accept that the policies of many that recovery will then be necessary. As I have explained euro area member states are deflationary, but it is at length in the past, banking reform and competitive ridiculous to deride them simply because those countries banking are crucial. The Government’s theory favours a are members of the eurozone when our own Government’s tight fiscal policy and a loose monetary policy. They policies are equally deflationary. want to allow more money to circulate through the Mr Redwood: As I shall make clear shortly, our private sector through credit and through the banking policies are rather different. For one thing, the coalition system, and they want to lower the deficit gradually in Government decided to increase current public spending, the public sector so that the fiscal policy becomes a bit which is running at £64 billion a year more this year tighter. than in the last year of Labour government. The Red Book shows that real current public spending has risen Mark Hendrick: The right hon. Gentleman makes in each of the two years of the coalition Government, great play of tax revenues. We all know where they although not by very much. The Government are clearly come from—they come from those who can least afford not trying to deflate the economy by introducing massive to provide them—but given that only one private sector current spending cuts, given that overall current spending job is coming along to replace every 10 jobs that are has been rising. being lost in the economy, where will they come from in future? Stewart Hosie: The right hon. Gentleman, who knows the Red Book inside out, will recall that it makes clear Mr Redwood: So far the strategy has generated quite that the Government’s projected discretionary consolidation a lot of new private sector jobs, which is very welcome, by 2016-17 amounts to £155 billion a year, of which but it is obvious that it needs to generate many, many 81% will be delivered by cuts in services and the remainder more over the next three years if it is to secure the by tax increases. The hon. Member for Preston (Mark savings on welfare benefits that I am sure all Members Hendrick) was right: the Government are embarking on wish to see. precisely the policies for which the right hon. Gentleman is criticising others. It is nonsensical for Opposition Members to say that the poor will be paying the taxes. We have just seen a big Mr Redwood: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman increase in thresholds which takes many people out of has not read the Red Book intelligently. The 80:20 income tax altogether at the lower end of the income statistic on which Members seem to rely relates to scale. Moreover, if the hon. Gentleman looks at the Red changes compared with much bigger growth in public Book, he will see that there will be a sharp acceleration spending that was in inherited programmes. It is not the in self-assessment income tax—the income tax that is reality. The reality of the Government’s strategy is a paid mainly by the rich—once we get the rate down. I massive increase in taxes over the planned five years of know that Opposition Members do not like reading the the present Parliament to pay for rather modest increases figures in the Red Book, but it provides a much better in current public spending over the life of the Parliament, case than Ministers ever provide for why we need to get and to get the deficit down. The 2010 strategy suggested back closer to Labour’s rates of income tax. 871 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 872 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 One of the things that I most admired about the of its trade surplus? Normally that would be done by former Prime Minister and last Chancellor of the Exchequer revaluing or devaluing those currencies, but having one but one was his insistence that 40% was the highest rate currency makes it impossible. of income tax that could be charged to optimise the amount of money obtained from the rich. He stuck to Mr Redwood: I know that you would like me to wind that view throughout his time as Chancellor and most up quickly, Mr Deputy Speaker, because others wish to of his time as Prime Minister. We all know that he only contribute, but it is such a pity, as this is a crucial issue. I put it in as a political trap at the end of his period in entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is office when he could see the writing on the wall, but it is great difficulty in financing the big balance of payments obvious from the Red Book figures that he was right: deficits in the eurozone. Now that a mechanism has 40% is about as high as we can go to optimise the been found—German surplus deposits in the ECB being revenue. routed to weak member states’banks through the ECB—the Germans are kicking up a fuss, because they suddenly According to the forecast in the Red Book, the revenue realise that they have ¤600 billion at risk and they are will stream in after the rate falls to 45p. If Opposition not very happy. However, as the main surplus country, Members look at the Red Book, they will see that last Germany has to finance the transfers in the union, and year, under the 50p regime, self-assessment income tax until she does so actively and in an encouraging way, fell by an amazing 9%. That was because rich people there will be all these kinds of problems. who have a lot of freedom and ability to decide how We have problems in Greece, Portugal and Ireland, much to pay themselves—I know that Opposition Members which we know about. We now have deep problems do not like that, but it happens to be the state of developing in Spain, and we even have a problem in the play—decided to pay themselves a great deal less. Both Netherlands—which was meant to be one of the good the outgoing and the incoming Governments had said guys—because of a falling out over the rather modest that the tax was temporary, so they decided that they cuts needed to hit the Maastricht criteria. I agree that would hold back their income. It was obvious that they we need to get to 3% and 60% in due course—I have no would do that. problems with the European targets—but I feel strongly that we should do so for our own reasons, in our own Gavin Shuker: The right hon. Gentleman is talking time. It is nothing to do with Europe how we run this like a cheerleader about the Laffer curve. Why does he economy, and the sooner Ministers have the courage to think that the UK economy is not growing? tell Europe that, the better. 7.10 pm Mr Redwood: I think that the UK economy may be growing. We will know the facts tomorrow, when we see Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Let me say first the first quarter figures, but I suspect that the economy that the Minister is heroic to take this brief, which will grow this year. I accept the Government’s forecast is—to understate the matter—a difficult one. I do not of a slow and modest rate of growth. Why, though, is envy him his job of having to try to sell it. the economy not growing more quickly? There are two There are two good reasons for not sending the main reasons. Budget report to the European Union. One reason, on which the Opposition agree, is that it is not a good The first reason is banking. All the cash that the Budget. The other reason, on which many of us on both Bank of England is printing is not going into circulation sides of the House agree, is this: why should we send in the private sector. It is very helpful to keep the our Budget report to the European Union? If the EU Government’s rate of interest down, and it is very wanted a copy, it could buy a copy. It is not a problem. helpful to make the increase in public spending more affordable because it controls the interest rate cost for Mr Nuttall: The EU could just look it up for free on the Government; but the money cannot enter the private the internet. sector in any real quantity because the banks are under a huge regulatory cosh to hold more cash and capital at Kelvin Hopkins: I am not as skilled as the hon. what is, in my view, the wrong stage in the cycle, which Gentleman in using the internet. Old-fashioned though means that we cannot secure the growth in banking it may be, I go to shops and buy books, I am afraid. credit that would finance a better recovery. As for the Budget, the reality is that it will not solve The second reason is that taxation is now very high our economic problems. Our problems are not really overall in the United Kingdom, which—combined with about the deficit; they are to do with unemployment. the inflation tax that has resulted from the high inflation Looking back, another time when we had an enormous rate that we inherited, which has remained persistently public debt and enormous deficits was the second world high—means that real incomes are being badly squeezed. war, after which the then Labour Government ran a It is plain to us all that real incomes started the squeeze full-employment economy, which was the way they under Labour, when the recession really hit, and that overcame our problems. If our Budget was directed that squeeze has continued. A progressive squeeze on towards creating employment, we too would solve many the scale that we have experienced since 2008 hits demand of our problems. The important thing is to generate and makes recovery that much more difficult. directly in labour-intensive areas, which are not expensive. We are talking about relatively low-paid workers in the public services or the construction sector—labour-intensive Graham Stringer: Is there not a third reason: that we sectors with low import content, which are just the sort are in the wrong part of the world, next to the eurozone, of sectors where we want to be generating. However, which has no mechanism for the poorer countries to get public services and construction are the very sectors we rid of their trade imbalances or for Germany to get rid are cutting. 873 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 874 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Kelvin Hopkins] understand is why so many people in the countries facing difficulties still support the euro. I do not know If we had a massive Government-driven house building why, because supporting membership of the euro is programme, along with the creation of more public almost like having a death wish. If only there were some service jobs, we would bring down unemployment and courageous politicians who could say, “The way out of people would be paying taxes rather than living on our problems is to recreate our own currency, depreciate benefits, and over time the deficit would solve itself. it against the countries we’re competing with and reflate That is what the Labour Government did after 1945. behind that barrier,” those countries would start to We were living in Keynesian times then, and I think that solve their problems. However, they cannot do it because Keynes was absolutely right. I like to think that if he they are tied into the euro. were here now, he would be saying what I am saying, We have collective deflation, right across the entire albeit possibly in a more sophisticated way. European Union, and although this country is perhaps tinkering round the edges compared with some other Richard Drax: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could say countries, that is entirely the wrong way to go. One where all those homes would be built. I believe the last thing that is causing us problems at the moment is that Government had a target of some 1.8 million, but I the eurozone is in such trouble that the euro is now recall that something like half were on a floodplain. weakening, which, by contrast, is strengthening sterling Where are we going to build all those homes? and making life more difficult for our manufacturers. Kelvin Hopkins: That is a problem for Ministers and That is causing problems in many ways. However, if local authorities, but it has been estimated that we need there were a sensible, managed deconstruction of the another 4.5 million homes over the next few years if we euro, with the re-creation of national currencies in are going to house our people. However, I will not go many, or possibly all, of those countries, thereby allowing into that now, because I want to talk about the European them to reflate their economies, they would benefit, as Union. would we, and the whole European Union would then start to work properly—as a group of democratic, I do not agree with the Budget—I think we ought to independent nations co-operating voluntarily for mutual have a different one—but even if it were a good Budget, benefit, rather than something driven by people in I nevertheless do not think that we should necessarily central banks or people in Brussels in the Commission. be required formally to send it to the European Union. I say that because the motion before us refers to the Kate Hoey: I wonder whether my hon. Friend could European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993—the give me an answer to the question I asked the Minister, Maastricht Act—which, I am pleased to say, my party to which he did not give me an answer. What are the voted against. Indeed, some Government Members voted repercussions for our country if we vote this motion against it as well. It is the Act that requires us to send down this evening, as I hope we will? the report to the European Union. Personally, I do not feel bound by that, because my party voted against it, Kelvin Hopkins: I hope we do too. As for the and I do not think it is sensible anyway. repercussions, will we be taken to the European Court However, let us return to the stability and growth of Justice? I suppose that is what happens; however, I pact, which, as I have suggested, is like building castles think the European Union has other things on its mind in the air. What stability? What growth? We have grotesque rather than punishing us for not sending the Red Book instability at the moment—terrifying instability, in fact—and across to Brussels. It has more problems than it can deal absolutely no growth. Indeed, even the powerhouse with at the moment, and it will not be taking us to court economy of Germany has serious problems. There is simply for refusing to send across our Budget book, talk of convergence, but who do we want to converge which it can buy in the shops anyway. with? Greece? Portugal? Some of the countries that are actually contracting, with mass unemployment? In Spain Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I there is even talk of unemployment rising to 6 million, apologise for not being here for the whole of the debate, which, as a proportion of the population, is the equivalent but I was in the Finance Public Bill Committee. Does of 9 million in Britain. This is absolutely insane. I do my honourable friend in European matters not agree not want to be “disable-ist” about this, but anybody that the Government have behaved much, much better running that economy must want their head examined, this year, by allowing the debate in Parliament to take quite frankly. place before the book is sent to Brussels, and that we should encourage the Government in this reformed Mr Cash: Given the hon. Gentleman’s important behaviour? comment about the convergence criteria, does he accept that it is absolutely clear that what was thought would Kelvin Hopkins: Indeed. I think we ought to debate happen in 1993, when the Maastricht treaty went through, many more of these things on the Floor of the House. I has gone completely off the wall, as we predicted at the would like to think that many more colleagues, from all time and as everybody now knows? The Prime Minister parties, would take part in these debates and appreciate said recently that he thought there ought to have been a some of the things that some of us, on both sides, have referendum on that treaty. Does the hon. Gentleman been saying about the nonsense of the European Union not agree, therefore, that there is a powerful case for at the moment. having a referendum on the current situation with the euro and the eurozone? I have been speaking for rather too long, so I ought to stop. There are two extremely good reasons for not Kelvin Hopkins: Indeed, and I think many of the sending the Budget report to Brussels. I hope that many peoples of the European countries that are now suffering Members will agree with that and vote against the would like a referendum as well. What I find difficult to motion this evening. 875 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 876 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 7.19 pm that has just been created, the eurozone remains mired in deep crisis, and I submit that we do not want to Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): As always, it is converge with it. a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Luton Thirdly—and perhaps most importantly—why are North (Kelvin Hopkins). He referred to the fact that we converging? Has anybody bothered to ask the British only a few Conservative Members voted with the then people if they want to be converging with the countries Labour Opposition on the Maastricht treaty—I rather of the eurozone? We ought to be pursuing the policies suspect that I may have been one of them at that time. that are right for this country, regardless of what the May I correct the hon. Gentleman on one matter, unelected bureaucrats in Brussels think. however? He referred to our sending the Red Book. I wish that it were so, but we are not sending the Red Mr Hoban: May I reiterate an assurance that I gave Book; instead we are sending the 210 pages of the earlier? We are following the policies that we think are “2011-12 Convergence Programme for the United right and are in this country’s interests. We are not Kingdom, submitted in line with the Stability and Growth going to be dictated to by Brussels bureaucrats. Pact”. It is a specially produced document. As last year, I oppose the submission of this convergence document Mr Nuttall: I am most grateful, as I am sure are all to the European Union. Members, for that confirmation from the Minister. No doubt by contrast to the previous speaker, I That answer raises the following question, however. No entirely accept that the Government are pursuing a doubt many officials at the Treasury have been engaged sensible economic policy that is designed to enable this in the preparation of this convergence document, spending country to start to live within its means once more. Of many hours of precious time and energy on it, but why? course there is a debate to be had in the House about What a complete waste of time! As was ascertained last whether taxation is at the right level in certain areas or year, anybody who is interested in this information whether public expenditure should be reduced further could glean all of it from the internet, without any need and faster, but those matters are not what this debate is to move any paper about. This is a complete, gigantic about. It is specifically about whether the Government waste of time. It is a giant, paper-shuffling exercise. assessment of our economic position should be approved “for the purposes of section 5 of the European Communities Mr Cash: As someone who took a very active part in (Amendment) Act 1993”, the Maastricht debates, I can say that this current debate is a case of déjà vu. As my hon. Friend said, we which requires this country to submit an assessment are being required to submit this report under the every year of how well we are progressing on convergence. provisions of section 5, even though everything has I object to that, as, I suspect, do many millions of my changed and it is utterly impossible for us to set out to fellow Britons. achieve the stated objective, because it is impossible for I wish to raise three questions about this convergence. us, in the national interest, to attempt to apply the First, what are we supposed to be converging with? Is it convergence criteria. The whole thing is a complete the eurozone? It probably is, and I certainly suspect that mess, which is why we need to have a referendum on the that is what the Eurocrats want us to do, but why on whole issue, including our relationship with the European earth would anyone want to converge with the eurozone Union. at present? It has a failing currency and is based on a failed idea that is continuing to survive in its current Mr Nuttall: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend on form only thanks to bail-out after bail-out and the both those points: first, this is a complete waste of time, failure of European leaders in Brussels to wake up and and secondly, we certainly ought to have a referendum. accept the reality that, as any sensible independent That is not, of course, the matter before us tonight, commentator can see, it is folly to try to tie together the however. Instead, this is the question under discussion economies of different countries with such widely divergent tonight: what is the point of sending this document to characteristics. Such a plan is doomed to fail. Brussels? Secondly, who are we supposed to be converging The Minister admits that we pay no attention to what with? Surely not the struggling economies of southern Brussels says to us, and that we govern our own affairs, Europe. Things are still going very badly wrong across so what is the point of producing this document? We the eurozone, as we saw only yesterday with the collapse should be honest with the people in Brussels and say, of the Dutch Government because of the fall-out from “Look, we’re not going to listen to you anyway. We’re the eurozone crisis. In addition, there are the economic independent in these matters, and we’re going to stop data: first-quarter GDP shrank by a further 0.4% in sending you this document every year.” It is a complete Spain, and the eurozone’s own composite purchasing waste of time to send it this year—and I would be very managers index—a useful measure of progress in the interested to know what happened to last year’s document. eurozone—has slumped to 47.4 in April, down dramatically from March’s 49.1, and we must note that any index Mr Redwood: Does my hon. Friend also agree that it figure of less than 50 means contraction. That collapse is a cruel paradox that the EU lectures member states to was both in services, down from 49.2 to 47.9, and in get their deficit down and then demands more money manufacturing, down from 47.7 to 45.0. Even the mighty from them by way of public spending? German economy is being affected by the struggling eurozone. Its overall purchasing managers index figure Mr Nuttall: My right hon. Friend makes a very good is down to 50.9, with even German manufacturing at a point, and it prompts the following: if the bureaucrats 33-month low of 46.3. It is clear, therefore, that despite in Brussels are keeping an eye on the eurozone, something all the bail-outs and the firewalls and the new IMF fund has gone pretty badly wrong because right across the 877 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 878 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Mr Nuttall] not contain an industrial policy. A promise was made about introducing a commitment for intensive energy eurozone nobody is sticking to the rules and regulations. users. The promise remains but that is still not happening; The growth and stability pact went west years ago. If it is still in the long grass. Likewise, infrastructure the bureaucrats had stuck to it a bit more closely, all the spending and getting construction going, so that bail-outs, mechanisms and IMF funds would not have construction can drive the economy forward, are not been necessary. If they had spent a little less time happening although they need to happen. This Budget, reading convergence documents and a little more time as set out in the Red Book, which we are considering concentrating on the problems in the eurozone, our sending to Europe tonight, is neither fair nor effective. country might be better off because our European It is certainly an omnishambles. It is both heartless and neighbours might be better off too and would therefore hopeless, and I hope that the House votes against it. want to buy our goods and services. There is no useful purpose to our constituents in this 7.33 pm document being sent to Brussels, and I urge the House Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I just wish to to vote against the motion. contribute a few words at the end of this debate, which I have listened to with interest. I am extremely concerned, 7.29 pm but not because we are having to justify our Budget. I think that our Government are doing absolutely the Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): It is pleasure to follow right thing in cutting back on the deficit left to us by the the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), who has previous Government, putting our house in order and dealt with one side of this issue—how the documentation putting the public first. That is where I would like to be: goes to Europe—with his usual rigour and care. I wish, putting the public first. I do not wish there to be any however, to focus on the appropriateness of the Budget consideration of whether Europe agrees that we are Red Book for the UK economy. putting our public first or that we are putting European The Red Book has created a cacophony of confusion. issues first. The European issues must be sorted out in We have had the pasty tax, the granny tax, the caravan Europe, among the people there. I do not feel that, as a tax, the churches tax and the tax on philanthropy—the sovereign Parliament, we should have to submit our list goes on and on. This is an omnishambles, if ever we Budget, regardless of whether the Opposition oppose had one. This Budget is neither fair nor effective. Indeed, or agree with it. It is up to us to decide the best for the Frank and Shirley, two pensioners, came to see me at British people and deliver the best for the British people— my recent surgery and told me that they are really whether or not that causes “convergence” is neither here concerned about the impact of this Government’s policies nor there. on them. They are worried about the pensions move The convergence that was perhaps envisaged in 1993 from the retail prices index to the consumer prices index is not a route we would even want to go down now. As and the effect of the granny tax. At the same time, they my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) see their energy prices, fuel prices and other costs rising. said, we are not sure what we are trying to converge That is what is happening to real people in the real world. with. I do not know why we are submitting documents This was a Budget in which millions were asked to that have the word “convergence” on the front of them, pay more so that millionaires can pay less: 14,000 unless people are giving us marks out of 10 for converging people earning £1 million or more get a tax cut of more with something. than £40,000 a year, while the average family lose £511 as a result of tax rises and cuts this year. A family with Mr Cash: Has my hon. Friend noticed that the motion children earning just £20,000 lose £253 a year—that is ends with the words in addition to the VAT rise, which is costing families in “which forms the basis of the UK’s Convergence Programme”? my constituency up to £450 a year. This Budget also The Government are therefore assuming that there will includes a £3 billion tax raid on pensioners for the next be a convergence. The questions are: with whom, about four years. what, and for what purpose? This is not a fair Budget, so the issue becomes whether it is an effective one. The Government promised change. Mrs Main: As usual, my hon. Friend is absolutely They promised that things would get better, but things right. Why do we want to converge? I do not believe that have got worse. Their policies are clearly failing on jobs, the British public even know that we are converging, on growth and on the deficit. We have 1 million young given that this is so lost in the mists of time. people unemployed—that is a shocking statistic—and women’s unemployment is at a record high. The economy Mr Redwood: I fear that the convergence programme has stalled, and there is speculation about tomorrow’s began so that countries could converge with the Maastricht growth figures—not about how much the economy has criteria to join the euro. As it is clear that we do not grown, but about whether the economy is merely flatlining want to join the euro, we should in no way be talking or is going back into recession. By contrast, in the about convergence. United States, where investment is taking place in infrastructure, the economy is growing, albeit slowly. Mrs Main: I shall not be supporting this motion, Our Government are set to borrow £150 billion more because I fundamentally disagree with what is on the than they had planned because of this slower growth, front of the document—convergence. I do not think so this Budget is not fair and it is not effective. that our currency or our country should be converging I represent Scunthorpe and the surrounding villages, with anything in Europe. Our sovereign Parliament where manufacturing is key. There is not enough in this should not have to hand in its notes to see whether or Budget to address the needs of manufacturing; it does not they are acceptable to Europe. If there is convergence, 879 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 880 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 I am sure that somebody is marking us out of 10 on Fox,rhDrLiam Lloyd, Stephen how far down the road we have gone. If we have gone Francois, rh Mr Mark Long, Naomi down that road, I would happily stop doing so right this Freeman, George Lord, Jonathan minute. I conclude by saying that at some point this Freer, Mike Loughton, Tim Parliament has got to stand up for itself and say, “We Fullbrook, Lorraine Luff, Peter are not going to do this any more.” I would like this to Fuller, Richard Lumley, Karen Garnier, Mr Edward Macleod, Mary be the year when we are not going to do this any more. Garnier, Mark Maude, rh Mr Francis Gauke, Mr David May, rh Mrs Theresa 7.36 pm George, Andrew Maynard, Paul Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I simply wish to say Gibb, Mr Nick McCartney, Jason that I thought that my hon. Friend the Member for Gilbert, Stephen McCartney, Karl Bury North (Mr Nuttall) really put his finger on it. He Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl McIntosh, Miss Anne Glen, John McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick told us exactly what the position is with regard to which Goodwill, Mr Robert McPartland, Stephen paper we were considering and he identified the questions Gove, rh Michael McVey, Esther that needed to be asked, as did my hon. Friend the Graham, Richard Menzies, Mark Member for St Albans (Mrs Main). This is about whether Grant, Mrs Helen Mercer, Patrick that treaty that we entered into all those years ago, after Gray, Mr James Metcalfe, Stephen all that contention, has or has not done its work. It has Greening, rh Justine Miller, Maria failed, and it has failed not only this country but Europe Griffiths, Andrew Mills, Nigel as a whole. That is why we need to vote against the Gyimah, Mr Sam Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew motion; this motion makes an assumption that this Halfon, Robert Moore, rh Michael treaty is still alive. It is as dead as a parrot. Hames, Duncan Mordaunt, Penny Hammond, Stephen Morgan, Nicky Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): That must Hancock, Matthew Morris, Anne Marie be the shortest speech that Mr Cash has made. Hands, Greg Morris, James Harper, Mr Mark Mosley, Stephen Question put. Harrington, Richard Mowat, David The House divided: Ayes 281, Noes 228. Harris, Rebecca Mulholland, Greg Hart, Simon Mundell, rh David Division No. 537] [7.37 pm Harvey, Nick Munt, Tessa Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Murray, Sheryll AYES Heath, Mr David Murrison, Dr Andrew Adams, Nigel Byles, Dan Heaton-Harris, Chris Neill, Robert Afriyie, Adam Cairns, Alun Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Aldous, Peter Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hendry, Charles Newton, Sarah Amess, Mr David Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hinds, Damian Nokes, Caroline Andrew, Stuart Chishti, Rehman Hoban, Mr Mark Norman, Jesse Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clark, rh Greg Hollingbery, George Offord, Mr Matthew Bacon, Mr Richard Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Holloway, Mr Adam Ollerenshaw, Eric Baker, Norman Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard Baldry, Tony Coffey, Dr Thérèse Horwood, Martin Paice, rh Mr James Baldwin, Harriett Collins, Damian Howarth, Mr Gerald Parish, Neil Barclay, Stephen Colvile, Oliver Howell, John Paterson, rh Mr Owen Barker, Gregory Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hughes, rh Simon Pawsey, Mark Barwell, Gavin Crabb, Stephen Hunter, Mark Penning, Mike Bebb, Guto Crockart, Mike Huppert, Dr Julian Penrose, John Beresford, Sir Paul Crouch, Tracey Hurd, Mr Nick Perry, Claire Berry, Jake Davey, rh Mr Edward James, Margot Phillips, Stephen Bingham, Andrew Davies, Glyn Javid, Sajid Pincher, Christopher Blackman, Bob de Bois, Nick Johnson, Gareth Poulter, Dr Daniel Blackwood, Nicola Dinenage, Caroline Johnson, Joseph Prisk, Mr Mark Blunt, Mr Crispin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jones, Andrew Pugh, John Boles, Nick Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, Mr Marcus Raab, Mr Dominic Bottomley, Sir Peter Doyle-Price, Jackie Kawczynski, Daniel Randall, rh Mr John Bradley, Karen Duncan, rh Mr Alan Kirby, Simon Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brady, Mr Graham Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Knight, rh Mr Greg Reevell, Simon Brake, rh Tom Dunne, Mr Philip Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan Bray, Angie Ellis, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Brazier, Mr Julian Ellison, Jane Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Hugh Bridgen, Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Brokenshire, James Elphicke, Charlie Latham, Pauline Rogerson, Dan Browne, Mr Jeremy Eustice, George Laws, rh Mr David Rosindell, Andrew Bruce, Fiona Evans, Graham Leadsom, Andrea Rudd, Amber Bruce, rh Malcolm Evans, Jonathan Lee, Jessica Ruffley, Mr David Buckland, Mr Robert Evennett, Mr David Lee, Dr Phillip Russell, Sir Bob Burley, Mr Aidan Fabricant, Michael Leech, Mr John Rutley, David Burns, Conor Fallon, Michael Lefroy, Jeremy Sandys, Laura Burns, rh Mr Simon Farron, Tim Leslie, Charlotte Scott, Mr Lee Burrowes, Mr David Field, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Selous, Andrew Burt, Lorely Foster, rh Mr Don Lewis, Brandon Shapps, rh Grant 881 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 Section 5 of the European 882 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Sharma, Alok Tredinnick, David Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, John Shelbrooke, Alec Truss, Elizabeth Engel, Natascha McFadden, rh Mr Pat Simmonds, Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Esterson, Bill McGovern, Jim Simpson, Mr Keith Uppal, Paul Evans, Chris McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Skidmore, Chris Vaizey, Mr Edward Farrelly, Paul McKechin, Ann Smith, Miss Chloe Vara, Mr Shailesh Field, rh Mr Frank McKenzie, Mr Iain Smith, Henry Vickers, Martin Fitzpatrick, Jim McKinnell, Catherine Smith, Julian Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Flint, rh Caroline Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, Sir Robert Walker, Mr Robin Flynn, Paul Mearns, Ian Soames, rh Nicholas Wallace, Mr Ben Fovargue, Yvonne Michael, rh Alun Soubry, Anna Webb, Steve Francis, Dr Hywel Miller, Andrew Spencer, Mr Mark Wharton, James Gapes, Mike Mitchell, Austin Stanley, rh Sir John Wheeler, Heather Gardiner, Barry Moon, Mrs Madeleine Stephenson, Andrew White, Chris Gilmore, Sheila Morden, Jessica Stevenson, John Whittaker, Craig Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Stewart, Bob Whittingdale, Mr John Godsiff, Mr Roger Morris, Grahame M. Stewart, Iain Wiggin, Bill Goggins, rh Paul (Easington) Stewart, Rory Willetts, rh Mr David Greatrex, Tom Mudie, Mr George Streeter, Mr Gary Williams, Mr Mark Green, Kate Munn, Meg Stride, Mel Williams, Roger Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Paul Stuart, Mr Graham Williams, Stephen Griffith, Nia Murray, Ian Stunell, Andrew Williamson, Gavin Gwynne, Andrew Nandy, Lisa Sturdy, Julian Wilson, Mr Rob Hain, rh Mr Peter Nash, Pamela Swales, Ian Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hamilton, Mr David Nuttall, Mr David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wright, Jeremy Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Swinson, Jo Wright, Simon Harris, Mr Tom Owen, Albert Swire, rh Mr Hugo Yeo, Mr Tim Havard, Mr Dai Perkins, Toby Syms, Mr Robert Young, rh Sir George Healey, rh John Pound, Stephen Teather, Sarah Zahawi, Nadhim Hepburn, Mr Stephen Qureshi, Yasmin Thurso, John Tellers for the Ayes: Heyes, David Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Timpson, Mr Edward Jenny Willott and Hilling, Julie Reckless, Mark Tomlinson, Justin James Duddridge Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reed, Mr Jamie Hoey, Kate Reynolds, Emma Hollobone, Mr Philip Reynolds, Jonathan NOES Hopkins, Kelvin Riordan, Mrs Linda Abbott, Ms Diane Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hosie, Stewart Ritchie, Ms Margaret Abrahams, Debbie Clark, Katy Howarth, rh Mr George Robertson, Angus Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hunt, Tristram Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Alexander, Heidi Clwyd, rh Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Rotheram, Steve Ali, Rushanara Coffey, Ann Jackson, Glenda Roy, Mr Frank Allen, Mr Graham Crausby, Mr David Jackson, Mr Stewart Roy, Lindsay Anderson, Mr David Creagh, Mary James, Mrs Siân C. Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Ashworth, Jonathan Creasy, Stella Jamieson, Cathy Seabeck, Alison Austin, Ian Cruddas, Jon Jenkin, Mr Bernard Shannon, Jim Bailey, Mr Adrian Cryer, John Johnson, rh Alan Sharma, Mr Virendra Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Diana Sheerman, Mr Barry Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Graham Shuker, Gavin Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cunningham, Tony Jones, Susan Elan Simpson, David Benn, rh Hilary Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Skinner, Mr Dennis Berger, Luciana Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Slaughter, Mr Andy Betts, Mr Clive Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Smith, rh Mr Andrew Blackman-Woods, Roberta David, Mr Wayne Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, Angela Blears, rh Hazel Davies, Geraint Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Nick Blenkinsop, Tom Davies, Philip Lavery, Ian Smith, Owen Blomfield, Paul Davis, rh Mr David Lazarowicz, Mark Spellar, rh Mr John Blunkett, rh Mr David De Piero, Gloria Leslie, Chris Straw, rh Mr Jack Bone, Mr Peter Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Mr Ivan Stringer, Graham Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dobson, rh Frank Lewis, Dr Julian Stuart, Ms Gisela Brennan, Kevin Docherty, Thomas Lloyd, Tony Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Brown, Lyn Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Caroline Tami, Mark Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Brown, Mr Russell Doran, Mr Frank MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Thornberry, Emily Bryant, Chris Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona Timms, rh Stephen Buck, Ms Karen Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Trickett, Jon Burden, Richard Drax, Richard Malhotra, Seema Turner, Karl Burnham, rh Andy Dromey, Jack Mann, John Twigg, Derek Byrne, rh Mr Liam Dugher, Michael Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Stephen Campbell, Mr Alan Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Umunna, Mr Chuka Campbell, Mr Gregory Eagle, Maria McCann, Mr Michael Vaz, rh Keith Campbell, Mr Ronnie Edwards, Jonathan McCarthy, Kerry Vaz, Valerie Cash, Mr William Efford, Clive McCrea, Dr William Walley, Joan Caton, Martin Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Watts, Mr Dave 883 Section 5 of the European 24 APRIL 2012 884 Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Wood, Mike Data Protection in the Areas of Police and Whitehead, Dr Alan Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Wicks, rh Malcolm Wright, David Criminal Justice (EU Directive) Williams, Hywel Wright, Mr Iain [Relevant document: The Fifty-ninth Report from the Winnick, Mr David Tellers for the Noes: European Scrutiny Committee, HC 428-liv.] Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Phil Wilson and Wishart, Pete Mark Hendrick 7.50 pm Question accordingly agreed to. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Resolved, (Mr Crispin Blunt): I beg to move, That this House takes note of European Union Document That this House approves, for the purposes of section 5 of the No. 5833/12 and Addenda 1 and 2, relating to a Draft Directive of European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Government’s the European Parliament and of the Council on the protection of assessment as set out in the Budget Report, combined with the individuals with regard to the processing of personal data by Office for Budget Responsibility’s Economic and Fiscal Outlook, competent authorities for the purposes of prevention, investigation, which forms the basis of the UK’s Convergence Programme. detection or prosecution of criminal offences or the execution of criminal penalties, and the free movement of such data; and supports the Government’s recommendation not to exercise its right to opt out of this draft Directive under Protocol 19 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (The Schengen Protocol). The motion stands on the Order Paper in my name and that of my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor. I welcome the opportunity to debate the proposed data protection directive, which the European Commission published on 25 January. The directive would repeal and replace the 2008 framework decision on data protection in the police and criminal justice sector. It is an important instrument for law enforcement in this country and across the European Union, and it is right that this House is given the opportunity to consider the effect of the proposals on both the security and the freedoms of UK citizens. The debate fulfils the commitment made by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe to seek Parliament’s views on an opt-in decision in justice and home affairs matters, as well as opt-out decisions under the Schengen protocol, and I am keen to hear the views of right hon. and hon. Members.

Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): In the Ministry of Justice’s impact analysis, the summary is that the overall impact is “likely to be substantially negative”. Given that, can the Minister explain why he does not want to opt out?

Mr Blunt: I will deal with that, but in deciding whether to exercise the opt-out, the Government looked at the most pessimistic reading of events. The conclusion to which my right hon. Friend refers has been before the European Scrutiny Committee, but that impact assessment does not take into account some of the consequences that would flow if we exercised an opt-out. I shall talk about those consequences later in my speech, but they include negotiating all the bilateral data protection arrangements that would be required were we not party to the directive. Having held the responsibility of Europe Minister, my right hon. Friend, of all people in this House, will understand the complexity of the legal basis—complexity that has increased considerably since he and I were serving in the Foreign Office together, I as a special adviser and he as a Minister. If he will forgive me, I will get my arguments on the record, give right hon. and hon. Members the opportunity to contribute in the light of that, then respond to their remarks at the end of 885 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 886 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) [Mr Blunt] UK law enforcement agencies. We are particularly concerned about the fact that it has been drafted so as to apply to the debate. I will therefore resist taking too many internal processing of data—that is, information being interventions. This area is complex enough without shared by police forces or other criminal justice authorities adding further to that complexity— within the borders of one country. The Government’s approach to the directive has been Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Will the Minister give to establish the best way of securing the benefits of way? continued data sharing with EU member states, while minimising any resultant costs. Having gone through Mr Blunt: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, let me get this analysis, our judgment is that, despite concerns our position on the measure on the record, then I will be about the current text, we should not opt out of the able to respond to interventions and points made in a directive. There are three main reasons for this. First, more disciplined way. the directive is at a very early stage of negotiation. It is the Government’s view that the proposed data There is substantial room for improvement, and it is protection directive can be classified as a Schengen clear that the UK has significant allies within the Council building measure; therefore, under protocol 19 of the of Ministers who share our concerns. We believe that treaty on the functioning of the European Union, which we can secure a more effective deal by working with our governs how the Schengen acquis are integrated into partners than by going it alone. the UK framework, the UK does have the option of opting-out of the directive. The deadline for notifying Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Will the Council of the European Union of an opt-out the Minister give way? decision is 14 May. The Government’s position is that the continued Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Will the Minister give ability to share information on crime and justice matters way? between nations is of fundamental importance. In an increasingly globalised world, crime does not stop at Mr Blunt: No. Secondly, the legal base of the measure national borders, but reaches across jurisdictions and gives the UK an effective exemption on the issue about involves people of many different nationalities. The which we are most concerned: internal processing of Government therefore support proportionate, clear and data. The directive is based on article 16 of the TFEU—the coherent data protection rules that keep personal data new data protection competence created under the Lisbon safe, protect the rights of citizens and enable our police treaty. Under article 6a of protocol 21, which gives the to pursue criminals to protect the lives and interests of UK and Ireland particular provisions and protections our citizens. in the areas of freedoms, security and justice, the UK has what we believe to be a firm protection that provisions Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Will the Minister on internal processing will not apply to us. give way to the Chair of the Scrutiny Committee? Jacob Rees-Mogg: Will the Minister give way? Mr Blunt: Given my hon. Friend’s position, I will give way. Mr Blunt: No. My intention was to respond to the intervention made by my right hon. Friend the Member Mr Cash: Does the Minister accept that the Government’s for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), but he is no explanatory memorandum of 13 February did not mention longer in his place, so I shall come back to it later. the Schengen protocol, or the offer of an opt-in debate; Thirdly, and most important, exercising the opt-out nor was any formal correspondence to that end received would endanger our continued ability to share information by the European Scrutiny Committee? across borders without necessarily freeing us from the bureaucratic and unwelcome obligations potentially created Mr Blunt: I am grateful to the Chair of the Scrutiny by the new directive. That is because in the absence of Committee for that point, but I will have to take advice the directive, the UK would have to negotiate new on what was received and when before replying to him. I data-sharing arrangements bilaterally with each of the am trying to explain that, in this area, there is considerable other member states in the European economic area. confusion between opt-ins and opt-outs, so if he will Notwithstanding the significant time and cost of those forgive me, I shall try to explain this complicated matter separate negotiations, the fact is that each of the member and its consequences in as simple terms as I can, as states with which we would be negotiating would be much for my own benefit as for anyone else’s. bound by the terms of the new directive, and of course To address specifically the subject of debate this would press the UK to adopt similar requirements to evening, we support the transfer of data across borders their own. The effect would be that we would end up and between organisations where it improves our ability taking on similar obligations to those of a directive that to prevent crime, increase security and keep our citizens we had not participated in negotiating, and whose safe. We must therefore protect the arrangements that content we had not had the opportunity to influence. have allowed EU member states to share information The Schengen instruments contain their own specific about suspected criminal activity in a regulated and and extensive data protection provisions, which will not proportionate manner. The challenge of the directive is be affected by the directive and will continue to operate, that, although parts of it are welcome and will help in so in effect we would be opting out of very little, with the fight against crime, some of the provisions are little potential benefit for the United Kingdom, but excessively bureaucratic and unwieldy. As it is drafted, potentially to our detriment. Furthermore, there are we have concerns about the costs it would impose on broader consequences to an opt-out. 887 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 888 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) Jacob Rees-Mogg: Will the Minister give way? with a recommendation that he serve at least 11 years in jail as he presents a “high risk” of further sexual offences. Mr Blunt: If we were outside the directive, our ability The investigating officer on the case said: to negotiate essential data-sharing agreements, such as “The use of foreign conviction data can be of great importance we are in the process of doing on the passenger name to police investigations. In my case, by working with the UK records directive and the European Union third-country Central Authority I was able to draw on their professionalism and passenger name records agreements, could be significantly expertise to secure details of”— undermined. Equally fundamental, exercising our opt-out the individual’s— on this measure could throw our participation in other, “previous conviction for rape in Romania which was put before broader Schengen measures into question and the Council the court and used as bad character evidence. This information could take the decision not allow us to continue to undoubtedly assisted in providing a successful outcome, convicting participate in valuable data-sharing arrangements under a dangerous offender who will now spend a considerable number the police co-operation provisions of Schengen. This of years behind bars.” would be a serious problem for our law enforcement Perhaps I hope that under European Union and Council agencies, which benefit from the sharing of criminal of Europe prisoner transfer agreements, a good proportion data under Schengen. of those years will be spent behind Romanian bars, but It is therefore our careful collective judgment, based if I follow that up, I may be diverging from the immediate on the most pessimistic view of costs and benefits, subject of the debate. shared with the European Scrutiny Committee, that our national interests are best served by participating in this Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Will the Minister give directive so that we are party to the framework governing way? data-sharing for policing and criminal justice across the European Union. Mr Blunt: That case is far from unique. We should be clear that the Government want to remain within the Kate Hoey: I thought it was this Government’s policy directive precisely to enable such practical, common-sense to bring back gradually more powers from Europe. The sharing of data. It is not because we do not have directive is gobbledegook to most people and seems to concerns about the precise details or think it cannot be me to be expensive and to do nothing at all for the improved. It is because we make the judgment that we safety of this country. Why are we going down this road? stand a much better chance of securing a sensible deal within the tent than outside it, and without risking the Mr Blunt: I am afraid I do not agree with the hon. likelihood that by having to negotiate dozens of bilateral Lady. The directive is important for the security of our deals, we would endanger co-operation that the public citizens. I will go on to give an example of the kind of depend upon. co-operation that we wish to protect under these It will not have escaped the attention of hon. Members arrangements. If we are not party to these arrangements, that press coverage has warned about new rights for we will have to start negotiating at least 27 bilateral criminals under this measure. Let me set the record arrangements, which would take us to precisely the straight. All UK citizens under current law are able to same place as the directive, without the benefit of know what information the state holds about them and negotiating under the directive. can ask for data to be erased. But the ability of criminals to enjoy this right is, for obvious reasons, qualified. Put Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Will the Minister simply, the rights of the law-abiding public to security give way? come first. Nothing in this proposed directive creates any new right for criminals or for anyone else. Mr Blunt: Let us be clear about what is at stake here. Rules enabling the sharing of data have made a tangible Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): Will difference to the United Kingdom, and we take steps the Minister give way? that imperil them at our risk and at risk to our citizens. Let me give an example, which concerned a 32-year-old Mr Blunt: On that point? Romanian national who was arrested in the United Kingdom on suspicion of raping two women within the Mr Raab: On that point. May I quote to the Minister Metropolitan area. A request for conviction data identified directly from paragraph 50 of the impact assessment? It that the suspect had a previous conviction for rape in says that criminal justice sector agencies may also be Romania. Just prior to the trial, the individual disputed prosecuted directly or via the Information Commissioner’s the Romanian conviction, but through close liaison Office if they fail to protect personal data. This will with the central authority and the police liaison officer represent a cost to them in terms of defending themselves at the Romanian embassy in London, a set of fingerprints in court and in paying fines and/or compensation that relating to the Romanian rape conviction was obtained may result from these cases. Does that not conflict and proved the conviction beyond doubt when they directly with what he has just told the House? matched against the suspect. An application to use the previous conviction as bad Mr Blunt: No, because these rights already exist. The character evidence was made by the prosecuting counsel suggestion in the newspapers yesterday, which I am sure and was granted by the judge, allowing the Romanian my hon. Friend had nothing to do with, was about rape conviction to be put before the jury. The defendant whether we were creating some new set of rights for was convicted of four counts of rape and other offences criminals under the directive. No new set of rights is at the Inner London Crown court in July 2010. being created, any more than exist now under our own The defendant was given an indeterminate prison sentence, data protection laws. 889 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 890 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will the Minister Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. give way? Minister, please resume your seat for a moment. Sir Peter, I thought that you wanted to intervene. You have been Mr Blunt: No. Let me turn to the substantial content in the House a long time and know that you cannot of the proposed directive and the policy issues that are stand up and then ask someone else to speak for you, raised. We want to see a system that allows police and unless you have lost your voice, which you have not. judicial authorities to continue to protect and serve the public effectively and which also allows individuals to Sir Peter Bottomley: You are right to correct me, be confident that their privacy, safety and freedom will Madam Deputy Speaker, and I think that I am also be safeguarded. The Government believe that these two right in saying that every word in “Erskine May” may objectives are not contradictory, but may be achieved in create a new precedent. My question, which I think my tandem, by creating a data protection framework that is hon. Friend the Member for Dover would have put founded on the principles of necessity and proportionality. better, is this: will my hon. Friend the Minister start talking In the light of this position, there are legitimate about costs at some stage during his very good speech? concerns regarding the content of the directive. The United Kingdom believes in a principles-based approach Mr Blunt: I will not. I am unable to, because work is that allows the necessary amount of flexibility in processing still ongoing on the impact assessment to try better to data. In some areas, the proposed directive seems far identify the precise costs of each measure. If my hon. too prescriptive to meet this requirement. Friend has had a chance to read the impact assessment, he will have noted that much of the assessment in this Henry Smith: Will my hon. Friend give way? area is based on fairly tentative criteria. What are not included in the impact assessment are the benefits of a Mr Blunt: Our priority in negotiations will be to resist successful negotiation or the costs that would be inflicted the application of the directive to all domestic processing— on us if we chose to opt out and had to live with the that is, data sent between two United Kingdom agencies. consequences. Although article 6a of protocol 21 means that this will not apply to us, we feel that it is important to remove As I was saying, this is the beginning of a lengthy this expansion as such data processing should not be process of negotiating new data protection legislation, the subject of European Union rules. We will seek to not the end. We will seek to influence negotiations in remove that for all European Union countries. order to bring about outcomes that are more in line with our policy objective, which is to end up with an As further examples, the proposal lays down new effective but proportionate framework. I note that every obligations for data controllers regarding the documentation other member of the European Union faces that same and records that they must keep and the consultations challenge of finding the right balance between the two that they must hold with the Information Commissioner’s principal objectives: the privacy of our citizens and the Office in order for the processing to be considered protection of their data; and the protection of their compliant with the rules. We also have reservations interests through the operation of our police and criminal about the compulsory appointment of data protection justice agencies. However, it is worth noting that the officers, a role that will need to be filled ostensibly to proposed directive is one part of a two-part package of ensure that data controllers fulfil the various obligations revised data protection instruments that the Commission presented to them, including those that I just outlined. proposed in January; it also proposed a regulation that We already expect robust data protection governance would cover general and commercial data processing by as a matter of course in public authorities. However, we public and private bodies. The regulation is neither the question the necessity of having the European Union trigger, nor the subject of this debate. telling us how to create, organise and run these arrangements. The more prescriptive and burdensome To return to the directive, which is the subject of aspects of the directive are opposed by the Government today’s debate, let me summarise our position. We and we will seek to remove or mitigate them during believe that an opt-out decision is a possibility for the negotiations in the Council of the European Union. Government but that it would be the wrong choice for This is the beginning of a lengthy process of negotiating the United Kingdom. We would need to replace the new data protection legislation, not the end. The UK directive with bilateral agreements with each member will seek to influence negotiations in order to bring state, which would be a time-consuming and tortuous about outcomes that are more in line with our policy process, and it is likely that in those negotiations we objectives, which is to end up with an effective but would find ourselves bound by aspects of the directive proportionate framework. that we feel confident we can remove in negotiations. The Government’s position, therefore, is clear: we Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): Will the want to be part of a European data protection framework Minister give way? that enables practical, common-sense sharing of data between member states’ law enforcement agencies engaged Mr Blunt: I will. in the fight against international crime. We believe that the limiting effect of article 6a on the aspects of the Sir Peter Bottomley: I think that my hon. Friend the directive that relate to data exchanges within the United Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) could put the Kingdom means that we should be content to be part of question on costs better than I could. it, which will of course substantially reduce the costs identified in the impact assessment. Although there are Charlie Elphicke rose— areas of the proposal that the Government will seek to alter, I can unhesitatingly commend the motion to Mr Blunt rose— the House. 891 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 892 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) 8.13 pm directive. As I have indicated, we do not oppose the Government’s decision today not to opt out, and I hope Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I will that that is clear. begin by saying that it is not the Opposition’s wish to divide the House on this resolution— Mr Cash: Does the shadow Minister accept that it is a prerequisite that the European Scrutiny Committee should Sir Peter Bottomley: Look behind you. have the opportunity to examine matters of this kind?

Mr Slaughter: I think I will take interventions a little Mr Slaughter: I do, and I was going to deal with that later in my speech. matter after raising a number of specific points of It is not my wish to speak for long. These debates, a concern. number of which it has been my privilege to speak in I am grateful to the European Scrutiny Committee over the past few months, are always animated, if only for its report, which states that on the Government side of the House—indeed, sometimes “there is now the possibility of establishing a comprehensive data I think mine is the last friendly voice the Minister hears. protection framework ensuring both a high level of protection of individuals’ data in the area of police and judicial cooperation in Mr Blunt: This is as good as it gets. criminal matters and a smoother exchange of personal data between Member States’ police and judicial authorities, fully respecting the principle of subsidiarity.” Mr Slaughter: He is in a pretty desperate situation if that is true. The report then adds: The animation in these debates often comes from “The Commission concludes that the practical difficulties encountered by a number of Member States in distinguishing what I might call the meta-issue of why we are discussing between rules for domestic and cross-border data processing European law expansion at all, rather than the precise could be solved through a single set of rules covering data statutory powers being considered, or at least that is my processing both at national level and in a cross-border context”. observation. I intend neither to engage in that debate, The aim might be laudable, but the solution appears to nor—other than briefly—to discuss the matter of principle say that, in order to avoid confusion, principles of that the draft directive raises. In dealing with the matter subsidiarity should in fact give way to an overarching of processing personal data for the purposes of preventing, system controlled centrally. One consequence of that detecting and prosecuting crime, there will always be a that the Minister has already alluded to is an extension balancing act. On the one hand, the prevalence of of the scope of data processing to include domestic cross-border crime, including serious and organised processing for the purpose of policing and judicial crime, crimes of violence, sexual crime and terrorism, is co-operation. In other words, the directive will regulate growing, and criminals and criminal gangs are becoming the passing of data between purely domestic organisations, more organised and sophisticated and making better such as neighbouring county police forces, and I share use of technology and information systems, so the the Minister’s concern in raising that. police and prosecuting authorities must have the means to match them. On the other hand, the issue of data In the area of data protection, the draft directive is protection and privacy from the prying eyes of the state stronger and, I think, should be broadly welcomed. It in particular is important, contentious and topical, includes: new rights of access and information for data from data storage to the Leveson inquiry. subjects, such as the identify of the data controller, the purpose of the data processing and the period for which In opposition, both Government parties set themselves the data will be stored; a right for data subjects directly up as opponents of data collection where it could be to demand the erasure of their personal data by the seen as intrusive, yet I read the following in today’s data controller; an obligation on data controllers to edition of The Guardian: inform supervisory authorities and data subjects of “Ministers are planning a shakeup of the law on the use of data breaches, informing the former within 24 hours of confidential personal data to make it far easier for government discovery and the latter without undue delay; and an and public-sector organisations to share confidential information obligation for data controllers or processors to appoint supplied by the public. Proposals to be published next month by data protection officers. The incorporation of human the Cabinet Office Minister, Francis Maude, are expected to include fast-track procedures for ministers to license the sharing rights legislation—the Human Rights Act 1998—into of data in areas where it is currently prohibited.” UK law by the previous Labour Government has improved the right to privacy and to protection from intrusion The Cabinet Office Minister said: into family life, but we still have some way to go. “In May we will publish the proposals that will make data sharing easier”. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I agree with everything The home affairs editor of The Guardian notes that that my hon. Friend has said so far, but will he look in “databases continue to proliferate across Whitehall, even before particular at the issue of Europol and how this exchange the extension of data-sharing powers. Now the Cabinet Office of information affects our obligation to it? minister…says government must be ‘smarter and more effective’ at sharing such sensitive data.” Mr Slaughter: I am happy to do that, and I am even It is not only the EU that has to undertake this tricky happier to note the support from my Back Benchers—the balancing of civil liberties with security and the pursuit almost unanimous support—[Interruption.] No, 50% might of crime. be a better figure. The issue before us is not one of principle, but The key to the balance that I have talked about is the whether the proposals achieve that balance. That question drafting of the directive within very prescribed bounds may be answered only in the further examination of the to restrain the opportunities for data sharing, thus the 893 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 894 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) [Mr Slaughter] by insufficient preventative or remedial powers, inconsistent legal regimes. Therefore, there is a need to promote closer co-operation controls for in-country transfer, to which the Minister among data protection supervisory authorities to help them has referred, are restricted—if one accepts what the exchange information with their foreign counterparts.” draft directive says. As currently drafted, it covers data That neatly encapsulates the two principal aims of transferred between two UK regional police forces with the proposals, as set out in the impact assessment: no cross-border elements, but that will apply to the UK dealing with the fragmentation of data, when it prevents only when such processing is pursuant to an EU measure cross-border law enforcement, and allowing individual on police or judicial co-operation, and that is indeed citizens to control their personal data. Those are proper what the draft directive states. aspirations, and we are prepared to give the directive the benefit of doubt at this stage, but I do await with I just worry that sometimes the intention is not interest, as I always do, the rest of the debate and, carried out in practice, and I cite—on a perhaps analogous indeed, the Minister’s response. subject—from the same Guardian article today this note of caution: “Last week the European parliament ratified plans to allow 8.24 pm airline passenger records, including credit card details, for all transatlantic flights between Europe and the US, including in and George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I out of the UK, to be handed over to the US department of have a number of concerns about the motion. First, it is homeland security to be stored for 15 years.” not just about introducing a directive, because it undermines If these proposals are to go ahead, they need to do so in existing British opt-outs in justice and home affairs; such a way that there are the tightest possible controls secondly, the Government’s own impact assessment raises on the exchange of data. serious concerns about the administration costs of the directive; and, finally, on a point to which the Minister Sir Peter Bottomley: First, does the hon. Gentleman, alluded, the Government are themselves still undertaking who is doing well, if I can say so without being patronising, consultation and work in this area. I shall put forward think that when those data rules are breached the victim the novel proposal that we make a decision on this of the breach should be notified? Secondly, and separately, matter after that work is complete, not before it has does he agree with my hon. Friend the Minister that the been done. problems of cost and of value for money are a matter On our opt-out, under a very unusual quirk of the for another day? Lisbon treaty, Britain has what is sometimes described as an opt-in protocol, meaning that by 1 June 2014 we Mr Slaughter: I accept what the Minister has said—that have to make a very big decision. There are about the matter is at an early stage and we should not press 130 justice and home affairs measures, and we have a him on those points. I am very happy to be patronised right to opt out of each and every one should we want by the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter to. We have to opt out of all of them en bloc, and we Bottomley), and whether he is asking by himself or by have to make our mind up within the next 18 months. proxy— We should make that decision now. Let us look at all 130 powers, and let us be very clear that we are going to Charlie Elphicke rose— opt out of all of them en bloc. If we do so, we will have three options: abandon the whole lot but do some Mr Slaughter: Ah! His proxy also wishes to intervene. bilateral work in the area; agree with some and opt back into them but on our own terms; or do something Charlie Elphicke: I am proud to be the proxy for my similar to Denmark by opting into some or all of them hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter but doing so outside the jurisdiction of the European Bottomley), and I thank the hon. Gentleman for the Court of Justice. generosity with which he has taken interventions and The problem with the directives, as they emerge, is for the great courtesy that he brings to the House. that they subject us to the jurisdiction of the ECJ in a My concern is that we will end up with a free-of-cost way that we are not subject at the moment. Every time subject access request. Does the hon. Gentleman agree we accept one of the new directives that are put before with Tony Blair, who wrote in his book, “A Journey”, us, we replace an existing framework decision and lose that freedom of information requests and such costless the power to opt out of that area. The opt-out falls by information requests are one of the biggest mistakes default, so we should not take such decisions lightly, and that one should be very careful about them? because the decision tonight is a decision to scrap a British opt-out, not just a decision to wave through an Mr Slaughter: I must get around to reading that amendment. book, because it is quoted to me so often in these One or two Members have touched on the explanatory debates and exactly the same point is made. I am sure it memorandum, and it is quite damning. Paragraph 25, is a very good read. which relates to domestic processing, states: I conclude by quoting one paragraph from the proposed “We…consider the impact of this on law enforcement agencies, directive which sums up its laudable intention: in particular regarding the administrative burdens it places on them” “When personal data moves across borders it may put at increased risk the ability of individuals to exercise data protection could be significant. It continues: rights to protect themselves from the unlawful use or disclosure of “The Data Protection Framework”— that data. At the same time, supervisory authorities may find that they are unable to pursue complaints or conduct investigations which went before— relating to the activities outside their borders. Their efforts to “does not cover domestic processing. We are considering the work together in the cross-border context may also be hampered implications of this.” 895 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 896 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) Paragraph 28, which relates to data protection and Europe-wide crime. We have to share data if we are to design, states: deal with the organised criminal gangs that exist in the “The DPFD did not impose obligations to protect personal EU in so many areas of criminal activity, including data by design and default and their inclusion in the Directive drugs and human trafficking. However, we need to be could prove to be a disproportionate cost and burden on the careful about who gets the data and what use they make functionality of law enforcement bodies.” of them. That is why I am such a strong supporter of Paragraph 30, on the data breach notifications requirement, Europol. Anyone who has visited it will know that it has states: a particularly British dimension. The information that “This could add a resource burden on low enforcement agencies we give that organisation is kept very much under our and be count-productive if it distracts data controllers from control. mitigating the adverse effects of the breach.” The Minister mentioned the case of a Romanian who Finally, the impact assessment refers to financial came to this country and whose criminal record tracked implications, and paragraph 33 states: him back to Romania. I would have thought that Europol “The Directive, if adopted as is, poses a number of financial should provide that assistance. It does not necessarily implications. In particular, police and law enforcement authorities have to be done through bilateral help. I raise with the would need to comply with specific obligations, such as the Minister the case of the Albanian who worked in a requirement to employ Data Protection Officers. We are examining hotel in the midlands and beheaded his manager after a the implications of these requirements further to determine how row with him. Only after he had committed that terrible significant they would be”. criminal act was it discovered that he was wanted in The memorandum is dated 13 February. When I contacted Sweden and Switzerland on other charges before he the Ministry of Justice today, it said that it had launched came to the United Kingdom. its consultation, but that it had not yet been concluded. In looking at data sharing, I am concerned that we do We should have gathered all the evidence together not have enough information about those who come before making this decision. We must question why we into this country. The Minister described the case of the are being asked to make this decision tonight, when all Romanian and I have described the case of the Albanian— the information is not before us. The answer is that this is not an attack on eastern Europe, but since we there is an arbitrary EU timetable that says that we have have mentioned the nationality of these people, we may to make the decision by the middle of May. This is as well be open about it. It would have been better if we exactly what is wrong with the European Union: we are had known about the offences committed by those presented with these matters, but we are not given time people at the time of their arrival. I do not think that to gather the evidence that we need before we are the directive would have ensured that that information bounced into making a decision. That is a complete was provided, although perhaps I am wrong. However, mistake. it is important to know the criminal background of I want to return to my first point about our opt-outs. those who arrive at our borders and who come to live People sometimes say that it is impossible to do anything and work in this country. That would be sensible data in the European Union because it is too difficult to sharing, as opposed to data sharing after the event. I renegotiate matters and because treaty changes are needed. hope that in his winding-up speech—if he does not This area is the one exception to that: we do not need to make one, perhaps he will write to me—the Minister renegotiate anything and we do not need a new treaty. will speak about the implications of the directive for Our opt-outs are already provided for. We must not Europol. allow the 130 British opt-outs to wither on the vine. We must decide now to opt out of all those provisions and Finally, I pay tribute to the European Scrutiny Committee adopt a more strategic approach to the ones that we will and its Chairman. They do a splendid job. It is important accept in future. that we have more such debates on the Floor of the House, even though they might sometimes be an irritant to Ministers. As with pre-summit debates in the House, 8.29 pm which seem to have gone by the board, it is important Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I intend to speak that we have as much time as possible to discuss directives very briefly.The hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth that will have far-reaching effects in the justice and (George Eustice) made an eloquent and thoughtful home affairs area of EU policy. speech, which indicated that we ought to spend much more time discussing justice and home affairs issues on the Floor of the House. I would like a debate on the 8.34 pm European arrest warrant, because it has created enormous problems for the British judicial system. However, we Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): The issue here is one have only an hour and a half and there are probably of process as well as substance. I am sorry that the Lord only about 30 minutes left, so I will be brief and raise Chancellor has just left the Chamber. I was glad to note only one point with the Minister, which is about the that he was here before I rose, but he seemed to depart operation of Europol. rapidly. I can only assume it was because some of the Last Friday, the European Commission had a meeting remarks that I am about to make may not be entirely to to which it invited the Chairs of the Home Affairs his liking or that of the Under-Secretary. Committees of all the EU countries to discuss the future This is a Lidington debate, and the significance of of Europol. I am concerned about how the directive such debates is that Parliament has an opportunity to might affect the way in which the Europol databases debate, and vote on, motions that clearly set out the operate. I support what the Government are trying to Government’s recommended approach—that they wish do. They are clear that the reason why they want better to exercise their right either to opt into a title V proposal data sharing among our EU partners is to combat or to opt out of a Schengen-building title V measure. 897 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 898 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) [Mr William Cash] In order to have a meaningful and informed debate on the Floor of the House under the Lidington arrangements, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for the Committee should have had reasonable notice of Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) for his remarks the Government’s recommended approach. A mere 24 hours on the substance of the matter, but there is a very is clearly inadequate. important question to be asked about scrutiny. I speak I could refer to many other matters, but the question as Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee, on which I shall conclude is simply this: what negotiating having just this afternoon come back from duties in strategy will the Government adopt to mitigate the relation to the Danish presidency. negative impact of the proposal as drafted, and what is I say to the Minister that the way in which this matter the Minister’s estimation of the likelihood that the is being handled is a disgrace. I will of course refer to Government’s strategy will succeed? the Committee this quite blatant breach of the spirit of This is a very sorry day in the scrutiny of European the proposals that we have agreed in the past, and I legislation. I am only sorry the Lord Chancellor is not intend to ask the Committee whether it wants to bring here, because if he were, I would invite him to go to the him in front of us to explain himself and how this has Dispatch Box instead of the Minister, who has let us been handled. It is that serious. down so woefully.

No mention of the Schengen protocol or offer of an Sir Peter Bottomley: Were there to be a meeting of opt-in debate was made in the Government’s explanatory Ministers of European Union countries during the next memorandum of 13 February, as it should have been, few days, and were there to be either a satisfactory or an nor was any formal correspondence to that end received unsatisfactory outcome, how could it be reported to the by the European Scrutiny Committee. I also mention House and how could we take a decision that supports that the Schengen protocol gives the United Kingdom or negates any decision that is taken this evening? and Ireland three months to opt out of legislation that builds on the Schengen acquis. The Government’s omission Mr Cash: I find it extraordinary that my hon. Friend is very significant and has meant that the Committee should seek to defend the Government’s breach of a has not had the opportunity either to scrutinise the series of requirements as prescribed in the spirit of the opt-in/opt-out decision or report to the House on it orders before the House, but in addition, it is perfectly prior to a debate taking place. clear—to me at any rate—that these proceedings are It may be a matter of some interest to the House that happening because of the timetable of Prorogation. there is no report before the House on the matter. Members can go to the Vote Office and get the Committee’s Jacob Rees-Mogg: I wonder whether the real reason previous paperwork on the provision, based on our why this is being done in this appalling way, completely consideration of the explanatory memorandum of ignoring the proper forms of scrutiny, is that the 13 February. In that document, we stated: Government know they have an absolutely rotten argument and thought they would push this through quickly “It is regrettable that the Minister’s Explanatory Memorandum while people were thinking about Prorogation and the did not mention any of” Queen’s Speech and what will be in the next programme. certain opt-in considerations, in blatant breach of Baroness It is little more than prestidigitation. Ashton’s undertaking to Parliament of 9 June 2008. We continued: Mr Cash: I concur. Other hon. Members wish to speak, so all I can say is that this matter will not to be “We ask the Minister to keep us informed of progress in allowed to rest. We will look into it further. The Committee negotiations on the points of concern for the Government…We will expect the Minister to give an explanation in person assume, therefore, that the negotiations are unlikely to be completed to us. I shall leave my remarks at that for the time being. under the Danish Presidency, and would be grateful to be informed if and as soon as this assumption appears to be incorrect.” 8.42 pm On every single element of what I have just described, the Minister is completely in breach of undertakings Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): It is always a pleasure to and of the requirement to refer matters to the Committee follow the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash). The hon. appropriately. Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), who is just leaving the Chamber, made an excellent The manner in which the decision has been explained speech. I agreed with practically every word he said, as I is a disgrace. There has been no attempt to explain it, or did with the hon. Member for Stone, who outlined that its implications, to the House properly. I have to go the way in which the measure is being put through the further and say that Members will need an explanation House is totally against the way in which the new for the Government’s omission, and I hope the Minister Government supposedly intended to treat European will find an opportunity to provide one before we legislation. That is wrong but rather typical of Governments. conclude these proceedings. It must have been obvious This Government and the previous one, and everybody to the Government that the draft directive was a Schengen- in the establishments of the parties at the top level, want building measure, because several of the recitals state to avoid a genuine debate––and certainly any debate in explicitly that it is and because the framework decision the country––and rush measures through. that it replaces was stated to be a Schengen-building I, too, read the directive checklist for analysis on EU measure. Recital 43 states that the UK is proposals. I happen to feel sorry for poor Mr John “taking part in this Framework Decision, in accordance with Bowman, who is the lead policy official who wrote it, Article 5 of the Protocol integrating the Schengen acquis into the because everything in it points towards why we should framework of the European Union.” not support the motion to not opt out of the directive. 899 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 900 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) That is not just because of the cost analysis, but it is thinks that we are going to believe that we would worth quoting that for the public, who may well be manage to change very much of this, when the reality is listening. It states: that we rarely change things and we ultimately give in. “The proposals would impose substantial costs which would We will give in on this. If this is put through tonight, no largely fall on the criminal justice agencies” matter how much we decide that it is not a good thing, and ultimately on the taxpayer. we can do nothing about it. The checklist also states: It is an absolute disgrace that after a one and a half hour debate, and my party refusing to even vote on it, “The overall impact is likely to be substantially negative”. this will be pushed through. This is just one more sign. I I heard not one single word from the Minister on that. remind the House of the people’s pledge campaign, He should have listened to the previous European debate which is all-party—including my right hon. Friend the just an hour and a half ago, when the Financial Secretary Member for Leicester East. We are keen to see a referendum to the Treasury took many questions and ended up on the European Union. It is holding by-election-type getting a lot more information. This Minister simply referendums across the country. In Thurrock, just before wanted to get through his speech and was prepared only Easter, 90% of the people who voted—in a higher very rarely to give way. He did not in any way respond turnout than in most local elections—voted for an to all the arguments against supporting this motion in/out referendum. Anyone who has been watching this tonight. debate tonight and listening to the arguments put by the The ministerial sign-off—presumably by the Minister Minister will even more strongly believe that we need a tonight—reads: referendum and an opportunity for the people to decide “I have read the analysis above of the potential impacts of this their destiny. proposal and I am satisfied that, given the significance of the proposal, the time and evidence available, and the uncertainty of Several hon. Members rose— the outcome of negotiations, it represents a proportionate view of possible impacts.” Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. That is precisely why the people of this country are sick, This debate concludes at 9.20 and I would like to leave a sore and tired of everything that this Parliament does few minutes at the end for the Minister. Members could on the European Union. help each other out by perhaps not speaking for quite If the outcome of the case of the Romanian rapist, so long, and then everyone can get in. who has suddenly become a very famous person tonight—my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester 8.49 pm East (Keith Vaz) also mentioned him—was possible before we had this directive, why do we need it? The Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I will be system worked perfectly well in that case. It even worked conscious of your remarks, Madam Deputy Speaker. It for the Albanian head chopper. It seems to me that we is, as always, a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member are struggling for reasons to prove that this directive for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey). If this motion is passed will help, but the real reason we are pushing it through tonight, it will result in yet another slice of the sovereignty quickly is, as the hon. Member for Camborne and of this House passing to Brussels and to the European Redruth said, that there is a whole raft of European Union. We have no obligation to do it. This country has Union regulations coming that we will have to make a every right to opt out of the measure, and that is exactly decision on and this Government know that on their what we should do. The rest of the EU would, of Back Benches, and increasingly on this side I am glad to course, continue to be bound by the measure, and if say—although there are none here tonight apart from there was a benefit to our citizens, they would benefit my right hon. Friend who has just spoken—resentment too. If the House felt the need to legislate independently is felt towards the European Union and its regulations, of the EU, we could do so, but we should not simply its burden and its undemocratic nature. The Government accept the measure as it stands. therefore want to get this through as quickly as possible. We have a choice. The Government propose to inch I cannot understand why we cannot have bilateral further down the path to greater European integration—a agreements. If we have the agreements there already, path that, I submit, runs in the opposite direction to why cannot we strengthen them? that in which the vast majority of the British public wish to go. Although the two Front-Bench teams might Henry Smith: Is it not the case that if we opt in to this agree, I suspect that millions of people outside this directive, it will be a one-way decision that we cannot place agree with those who have spoken from the Back back out of? It will be decided through qualified majority Benches who, in this argument, are on the side of the voting, so we may not get exactly the sort of directive British public. Once we have chosen not to exercise our that would suit the United Kingdom, which is yet right to opt out, there will be no option to reverse that another reason. decision, and we will have slipped yet further into the EU’s clutches. Kate Hoey: I absolutely agree, and that is precisely The Minister expressed concern that if we did not what some of us wanted to ask the Minister about, but accept the measure, other European countries might he was not prepared to take interventions. I hope that choose not to co-operate with us. My first thought to he will respond to some of these questions. He himself that was, “Simple. Let’s tell them we’ll stop sending the said that he does not like bits of it—some of it is cheque every month.” That might soon get them into excessively bureaucratic and it is far too prescriptive. He order. Then there is this nonsense that we might be said that the Government do not like the domestic obliged to enter bilateral agreements and that it is all aspect of it, but that they will negotiate. He actually too difficult. What nonsense! We have thousands and 901 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 902 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) [Mr David Nuttall] The directive will apply not only to cross-border investigations but to data transferred between two UK thousands of civil servants who must surely negotiate forces, subject to what the Minister has said. The EU bilateral agreements all the time. sees the proposals as a safeguard but, in reality, they risk creating a bureaucratic straitjacket, sowing legal Jacob Rees-Mogg: Not only would it not be too confusion and adding to the costs of police forces on difficult but we have an agreement in place already the front line. The Ministry of Justice impact assessment under which it is a requirement of the EU that every put it very clearly when it stated that effort be made to maximise its effectiveness in the event “many of the new obligations appear disproportionate and of it being replaced. So the Government’s argument unnecessary leading to an overall negative outcome.” does not stand up. So why are we opting in, against departmental advice? Mr Nuttall: My hon. Friend makes a good point. It I listened to the new arguments advanced by the would not be at all difficult, as the Minister suggested, Minister this evening, but I find it unacceptable that for us to reach separate bilateral agreements, not just they are wholly missing from the impact assessment and with the remaining 26 members but with the other that they have not been reviewed by the European European countries that are not members. We need to Scrutiny Committee. We have heard the standard boilerplate be doing deals with them as well, if this is such a good arguments for meekly submitting to extra EU regulation, idea. and there has been no analysis at all of the countervailing arguments, which, if they are as serious as has been As pointed out, if we adopted this measure, it would suggested, we really ought to be scrutinising properly. have significant resource implications, as paragraph 33 At the very least, should we not wait until Ministers of the Government’s explanatory memorandum, dated have quantified the administration costs of the measures 13 February, makes clear. At a time when the whole to police forces? thrust of Government policy is aimed at reducing the amount of regulation, our public services will have to The impact assessment estimates that there will be contend with yet more rules and regulations. Many will substantial costs to the police and other agencies, but rightly question why we are subjecting them to more we have no further details. When will a proper assessment Brussels red tape. The bundle of papers available from be made? Has the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Vote Office on this motion demonstrates the size of or any individual police force, been asked for a view of the problem. It contains well over 300 sides of A4 the operational impact of the measures? We know that paper. So we have more regulations, the cost of which the Ministry of Justice has looked at them; have the we know not. In essence, we are being asked to sign a Home Office or police forces in general done so? We blank cheque. We should not be taking this step, and I ought to learn a lesson from the Abu Qatada saga, urge the House to vote against the motion. which is dragging on, and be acutely aware of the real risk of European legislation, judicial or otherwise, tying the hands of UK law enforcement. 8.53 pm When it comes to data protection and related privacy Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): It is a rights, we have been here before. The House will remember pleasure, as always, to follow my hon. Friend the Member the case of Gary Ellis, a serial thief and burglar. In for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), who powerfully and 2003, Essex police were forced to abandon a crime-fighting eloquently put the constitutional case against the measure. campaign that would have displayed his picture across The motion gives the House an opportunity to assess his home town of Brentwood in an attempt to deter him the latest proposals from Brussels on the processing of and warn potential victims. The courts banned the personal data by the police and other law enforcement posters because they breached his privacy rights under agencies. Like others, I am surprised and disappointed article 8 of the convention. that the motion endorsing the opt-in, which is an important In 2008, the Serious Organised Crime Agency had step for the reasons already mentioned, first appeared similar problems with 41 criminals under financial reporting on the Order Paper this morning. Now we learn that the orders. It was forced to protect their privacy and therefore Ministry of Justice impact assessment—the basis on not publish the orders, which led to SOCA’s head, which the House is scrutinising this measure—is Sir Stephen Lander, publicly expressing his frustration. fundamentally flawed, having omitted the decisive I appreciate that those cases involve a slightly different considerations Ministers have relied on. That is a poor set of rights, but they are related and the impact is basis for Parliament to exercise its scrutiny prerogatives similar. Is not the reality that this opaque directive will on. risk arming offenders with yet another legal weapon The Commission argues that the provisions are needed with which to sue those whose job it is to put them because of the speed of technological change and the behind bars and protect the public? Paragraphs 49 and increasing amount of information being transferred, 50 of the impact assessment also highlight the cost of but the draft directive would make data protection civil litigation brought by offenders and suspects against obligations more onerous and more expensive for UK the police and others, and even the prospect of prosecution police forces. The police would have to appoint specialist by the Information Commissioner’s Office. data protection officers. There would be restrictions on the information that could be held, and rules to allow I note the Minister’s statement that there were no new suspects and criminals to know what data are being rights, but paragraph 47 of the impact assessment states held on them and to request amendments and deletion that it is likely that this proposal—not existing rights—could of that information. These are clearly and palpably new have rights; it is completely wrong to suggest otherwise. “a large impact on CJS agencies.” 903 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 904 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) The risk of such unintended legal consequences is in more depth. In my view, if we had that in-depth aggravated by the fact that the new directive will be debate, some people would reach different conclusions subject to the full jurisdiction of the European Court of on European matters than they do now. Justice. That is why assurances about the limits of its I welcome the opportunity to discuss the draft directive. application cannot be relied on. I want to highlight the fact that this is about the When it comes to pan-European co-operation, as processing of personal data for the purposes of prevention, opposed to data sharing within the UK, the impact investigation, detection or prosecution. I emphasise assessment is equally sceptical. It states that, far from “investigation” because much of the focus has been on making us more secure, there will be an increased risk criminals, as has been the case with the Mail Online,but from criminal acts because the directive will gum up many of the people we are dealing with and much of the international data sharing by adding burdens that will data being exchanged are relevant to investigations. discourage co-operation. Overall, this is a bleak assessment. People who are being investigated may not, of course, It raises the question why is Brussels micro-managing be criminals at all. policing and law enforcement? If we need a change to The Commission highlights the fact that new technologies our data protection rules, it should be tailored to the require a refresh of some of the standards that are in problem under national law and in relation to national place. We are also debating communications and how law enforcement agencies. Why, given the Ministry’s we are going to address the new technologies. The lousy impact assessment, are we even contemplating Commission is seeking to achieve greater efficiencies in opting in? law enforcement co-operation. We have heard a lot Bitter experience suggests that we may end up with tonight about the cost of this particular proposal, but gold-plated provisions protecting UK criminals while we have heard a lot less about the cost of trying to other EU countries would apply the provisions selectively, negotiate this 27 times over in the European Union. We if at all. The obvious course, which I understand is should bear that in mind, too. available—I stand to be corrected by the Minister or The hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) said—I hon. Members who are lawyers if I am wrong—is to am not sure whether it was in a speech or an intervention— remain at the negotiating table, albeit without a vote, that this is all very complicated, but I do not think it is. and to decide whether or not we like the end product in The directive’s content is quite straightforward. It deals due course. Why have Ministers opted against that with the principles governing personal data processing specific course of action? Why cannot we go down that and the rights of individuals to access their personal route? As to relying on bilateral co-operation outside data, to rectify or erase them. It talks about obligations the justice and home affairs regime, can we seriously say on data controllers and data processors and so forth. that the prospect of negotiating bilateral treaties has All that is fairly straightforward. harmed public protection, national security or law enforcement for the Swiss or the Norwegians? It is interesting to note that the Mail Online is running a campaign on issues to do with the communications Beyond these practical problems, there is a constitutional database, which I welcome. It talks about standards and dimension. The new directive would replace the 2008 who can have access to and control data, yet for this EU rules on data protection. These are part of the particular proposal, which in many respects is about the 130 measures in respect of which we need to decide same issue of maintaining standards, it has adopted a whether to repatriate or to accept the full jurisdiction of different position. the European Court from 2014. Any laws amended or This is about cross-border co-operation on crime. I replaced are not subject to that block opt-out, so by look forward to the debate that we will have—in fact, it opting out of this measure, we will prevent the UK may be a debate times 130—about the different proposals from opting out of this area of EU policy making later. that we as a nation may wish to opt in or out of at some My hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth point before the end of 2014. I expect us to debate (George Eustice) made that point eloquently and powerfully. whether measures such as the European arrest warrant, As with most international law enforcement co-operation, which I accept could be improved on, are helping to effective data sharing is achieved through practical bring to justice rapists, murderers and paedophiles. co-operation between national authorities, not through That is what they are there for and what the police top-down bureaucratic schemes. We do not have a proper believe they are being effective in doing, and that is analysis of the cost of the directive, and we do not have what we will debate in the Chamber many times over a proper assessment of the operational impact. The the next couple of years. impact assessment has not even been signed off by a Minister. In those circumstances, frankly, it would be Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): So irresponsible to commit the UK to this measure without many instruments in the security and home affairs field further detail and without further scrutiny. I cannot are being either repealed or amended that it may not be support the motion. open to us to make the decision about large numbers in 2014, because we will no longer have any ability to make a choice as a nation other than through a referendum 9.1 pm on our membership of the European Union. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): A number of Members have commented on the process, Tom Brake: I note what the hon. Gentleman has said. and it will be appropriate for the Minister to respond to I certainly think that we need to embark on the debate them. I suspect that I am not in agreement on European on these measures sooner rather than later because of issues with most of those who have spoken so far, but the potential for Parliament to grind to a halt, which I we can agree that European issues need to be discussed hope all Members agree would not be in its interests. 905 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 906 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) [Tom Brake] privacy and a right not to data-share for criminals and villains, whom we should be fighting with all the data at The Minister touched on the issue of the directive our disposal? being a Schengen-building measure. I ask him to reassure I am concerned about the lack of attention to detail. me that that is absolutely certain, because I think that Let us look at the checklist analysis that has been there is some uncertainty. I am glad that the Government provided in the Vote Office, which no Minister has intend to make it clear that there should be no attempt signed. It is a basic thing, but no one paid sufficient to impose standards in relation to internal processing. attention to detail to ensure that it was signed. Let us It has been alleged that the directive might allow look at the Order Paper. The first thing we knew, late criminals to gain access to, or indeed delete, information last night, was that this motion would be on the Order about themselves. Article 12 of the draft directive states Paper in the form that it is. Why do Ministers not reach that the right to know the purpose of processing and to out to Back Benchers, to make the case and to win whom personal data have been sent can be refused by friends and influence people? The one example given by the police on the grounds that it would obstruct the Minister—the example of the Romanian—seems a “official or legal inquiries, investigations or procedures”. stronger argument for reforming the European arrest warrant than for supporting this directive. The directive has clearly taken on board the concerns expressed by some Members and parts of the press. My principal concern, and the principal concern that my constituents will have, is this. Of course we should The Government have rightly highlighted concerns have international co-operation, and of course we should about the requirement to act immediately on data security combat international crime, but are our Ministers going breaches, and I expect them to seek to negotiate on that to make the case passionately in Europe, on a line-item in the discussions that will take place. basis? Are they going to show that attention to detail, I welcome the position adopted by the Government. I when they will not even accept an intervention from am sure that this is just one of very many similar Members on their own side, which in my case was going debates that we shall have over the next 12 or 18 to be helpful? I am concerned that we should be making months, which I think will give us an opportunity to sure that we are not frit when we put the case in highlight many of the positive proposals that have been Europe—that we are strong and trenchant, and that we implemented at EU level to make to ensure that the ensure that our European friends focus on the necessity police and the judicial system become more effective. of ensuring that our law-enforcement agencies are sent into battle not with one hand tied behind their back, but with the full support of all European nations to 9.8 pm ensure that we deal with the scourge and evils of Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I represent what are international crime. probably some of the most Eurosceptic electors in the Many workers in my constituency work tirelessly on country, but they feel passionately about one issue: the the front line for the UK Border Agency. Paragraph 30 need to ensure that Europe works when it comes to of the impact assessment says that the UKBA is seriously dealing with international crime. We see at first hand concerned, because although people would normally be the problems of people-trafficking and people-smuggling, charged a tenner for a data request, under this proposal particularly the disgraceful exploitation of women who it will be completely free. That means that people could are carted secretly over our border and slipped into be bombing them in all the time, at great administrative such places as Soho. expense and effort—for the UKBA, in this case. The We see drug running, international organised crime, UKBA receives 22,000 such requests every year. At the gun running and all the rest of it—that is, some of the moment, the charge of a tenner wards off ever more most serious international crimes, on which we absolutely requests. Indeed, the UKBA says that the charge should have to have co-operation. I therefore strongly support be higher, in order to ward off more vexatious requests. measures to ensure effective international co-operation. Its preference is for However, we have to ask whether this directive is on the “an increase in the fee limit to above the present £10 level.” side of international co-operation to tackle crime. Is it The UKBA is not going to be happy that the Europeans on the side of law enforcement, or is it on the side of the come along and say, “Actually, it should all be free.” We villain and protecting the villain’s rights? Is it yet another need Ministers to go to Europe to make the case villain’s charter by proxy, emanating from the European passionately to our European colleagues that we must Union? ensure that we do not give a blank cheque to anyone For me, the balance shows the right intent—that we who wants to be vexatious in order to protect the should co-operate—but what we have from the European so-called privacy of potential villains and criminals. We Union is the wrong way of going about that. We need to must send our law enforcement agencies into battle with give our law enforcement agencies the strongest possible our strong and passionate support, so we can deal with tools to fight crime and the serious international gangs, the great evils of international crime. and so on. However, I am worried because, having The one area on which my constituents support the listened to this debate, it seems to me that we do not EU is in respect of co-operation, but we must also need to opt in at this stage. From the discussion and ensure that our criminal justice services are not under debate so far, it seems that we could take part in the threat of prosecution, as suggested at paragraph 50 of negotiations, reserving our position, and decide to opt the impact assessment. I am deeply concerned that the in later. We have the possibility of co-operating bilaterally. overall impact of this will be substantially negative, Up to now, we have co-operated quite successfully, and even if it is difficult to be specific about that. I hope that to date we have managed to data-share. Why will that Ministers will make a strong and passionate case for suddenly come to a crashing halt if we have a right of taking away the bad things in this directive and ensuring 907 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 908 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) we keep the good things. I urge the Minister not to be for the Government’s decision on the opt-out, which frit. Instead, he must be strong and trenchant and win has to be taken, and on parliamentary arrangements, I the day. accept that things could always have been done better—

9.15 pm Mr Nuttall rose—

Mr Blunt: After that contribution, it is clear that I Mr Blunt: I will not give way, because I want to try to owe my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie finish with— Elphicke) an apology for not having taken his intervention, not least because he welcomed the Government’s general 9.20 pm objectives and the balances we are seeking to strike. However, he did then say that this was another villain’s One and a half hours having elapsed since the charter from the EU—an argument that some in the commencement of proceedings on the motion, the Deputy press have also made. Speaker put the Question (Standing Order No. 16(1)). The rights of United Kingdom citizens under our The House divided: Ayes 267, Noes 24. existing laws under the Data Protection Act—their Division No. 538] [9.20 pm rights to access information and for information to be erased—are pretty much the same as what is being AYES proposed in this directive. The same rights of the authorities Adams, Nigel Djanogly, Mr Jonathan not to have to erase data that are important for criminal Afriyie, Adam Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen investigations will also continue to exist in the future. Aldous, Peter Doyle-Price, Jackie Let me turn to the important question of process, Amess, Mr David Duddridge, James and address the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member Andrew, Stuart Duncan, rh Mr Alan for Stone (Mr Cash), the Chairman of the European Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Scrutiny Committee. I am perfectly happy to concede Bacon, Mr Richard Dunne, Mr Philip that these matters could have been handled better. One Baker, Norman Ellis, Michael of the constraints we have placed on ourselves in the Baldry, Tony Ellison, Jane Baldwin, Harriett Ellwood, Mr Tobias so-called Lidington debates is to bring the measures Barclay, Stephen Elphicke, Charlie relating to opt-ins or opt-outs under the Schengen Barker, Gregory Evans, Graham protocol to the House and give Members the opportunity Barwell, Gavin Evans, Jonathan to debate them. My hon. Friend pointed out that there Bebb, Guto Evennett, Mr David is the small matter of prorogation. The decision on the Benyon, Richard Fabricant, Michael opt-out must be taken on 14 May. [Interruption.] Well, Beresford, Sir Paul Fallon, Michael that is what is in the treaties of the EU. The Government Berry, Jake Farron, Tim have to decide whether to opt-out by 14 May, and we Bingham, Andrew Field, Mark are also committed to coming to the House and giving Blackman, Bob Foster, rh Mr Don Members the opportunity to debate. Blackwood, Nicola Fox,rhDrLiam Blunt, Mr Crispin Francois, rh Mr Mark The information given to my hon. Friend—which Boles, Nick Freeman, George was given within 10 days of the directive being published— Bradley, Karen Freer, Mike made no reference to Schengen. I will examine why that Brady, Mr Graham Fullbrook, Lorraine was the case, but I am advised that whether or not the Brake, rh Tom Fuller, Richard matter fell within Schengen was still under examination Bray, Angie Garnier, Mark at the time. There is also an element of legal opinion as Brazier, Mr Julian Gauke, Mr David to whether or not the Schengen acquis can be correctly Brokenshire, James George, Andrew claimed by the Commission when it comes forward with Browne, Mr Jeremy Gibb, Mr Nick these measures. There is an element of process to be Bruce, Fiona Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl applied, therefore, rather than our just taking at face Bruce, rh Malcolm Glen, John value Commission statements on regulations and directives Buckland, Mr Robert Gove, rh Michael and whether measures are compliant with Schengen. Burley, Mr Aidan Graham, Richard Burns, Conor Grant, Mrs Helen Burns, rh Mr Simon Gray, Mr James Mr Cash: When the Minister reads the transcript, he Burrowes, Mr David Greening, rh Justine will see that the matter is specifically referred to in the Byles, Dan Grieve, rh Mr Dominic framework decision recitals. I do not think there is any Cable, rh Vince Griffiths, Andrew debate about this point, therefore. What I would like to Cairns, Alun Gyimah, Mr Sam know is whether the Minister for Europe consulted the Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Halfon, Robert Minister on this matter; after all, the Lidington debates Clark, rh Greg Hames, Duncan are based on an assumption in the context of decisions Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hammond, Stephen taken by this House in the light of what the Minister Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hancock, Matthew himself specified. Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hands, Greg Collins, Damian Harper, Mr Mark Mr Blunt: No, I did not speak directly to my right Colvile, Oliver Harrington, Richard hon. Friend the Minister for Europe. Yes, it is in the Cox, Mr Geoffrey Harris, Rebecca recitals, but the regulation published by the European Crockart, Mike Hart, Simon Commission in parallel with this also asserts some Crouch, Tracey Harvey, Nick involvement with Schengen, which we dispute. These Davey, rh Mr Edward Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan issues are not always very straightforward. On the timetable Davies, Glyn Heath, Mr David we have placed on ourselves to have this debate in time Dinenage, Caroline Hemming, John 909 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 910 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) Hendry, Charles Newmark, Mr Brooks Wallace, Mr Ben Williamson, Gavin Hinds, Damian Newton, Sarah Webb, Steve Wilson, Mr Rob Hoban, Mr Mark Nokes, Caroline Wharton, James Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hollingbery, George Norman, Jesse Wheeler, Heather Wright, Jeremy Hopkins, Kris Offord, Mr Matthew White, Chris Wright, Simon Horwood, Martin Ollerenshaw, Eric Whittaker, Craig Yeo, Mr Tim Howarth, Mr Gerald Opperman, Guy Wiggin, Bill Young, rh Sir George Howell, John Ottaway, Richard Willetts, rh Mr David Zahawi, Nadhim Hughes, rh Simon Paice, rh Mr James Williams, Mr Mark Tellers for the Ayes: Hunter, Mark Parish, Neil Williams, Roger Jenny Willott and Huppert, Dr Julian Paterson, rh Mr Owen Williams, Stephen Stephen Crabb Hurd, Mr Nick Pawsey, Mark James, Margot Penning, Mike Javid, Sajid Penrose, John NOES Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Campbell, Mr Gregory Raab, Mr Dominic Johnson, Joseph Phillips, Stephen Cash, Mr William Reckless, Mark Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Davies, Philip Rees-Mogg, Jacob Jones, Mr Marcus Poulter, Dr Daniel de Bois, Nick Shannon, Jim Kawczynski, Daniel Prisk, Mr Mark Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Simpson, David Kelly, Chris Pugh, John Drax, Richard Skinner, Mr Dennis Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Mr John Eustice, George Smith, Henry Knight, rh Mr Greg Reevell, Simon Hoey, Kate Stringer, Graham Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan Hopkins, Kelvin Walker, Mr Charles Laing, Mrs Eleanor Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Jackson, Mr Stewart Wood, Mike Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Hugh Lewis, Dr Julian Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence McCrea, Dr William Tellers for the Noes: Latham, Pauline Rogerson, Dan Nuttall, Mr David Mr Peter Bone and Laws, rh Mr David Rosindell, Andrew Patel, Priti Mr Philip Hollobone Lee, Jessica Rudd, Amber Lee, Dr Phillip Ruffley, Mr David Leech, Mr John Russell, Sir Bob Question accordingly agreed to. Lefroy, Jeremy Rutley, David Resolved, Leslie, Charlotte Sandys, Laura That this House takes note of European Union Document Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Scott, Mr Lee No. 5833/12 and Addenda 1 and 2, relating to a Draft Directive of Lewis, Brandon Selous, Andrew the European Parliament and of the Council on the protection of Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant individuals with regard to the processing of personal data by Long, Naomi Sharma, Alok competent authorities for the purposes of prevention, investigation, Lopresti, Jack Shelbrooke, Alec detection or prosecution of criminal offences or the execution of Lord, Jonathan Simmonds, Mark criminal penalties, and the free movement of such data; and Loughton, Tim Simpson, Mr Keith supports the Government’s recommendation not to exercise its Luff, Peter Skidmore, Chris right to opt out of this draft Directive under Protocol 19 of the Lumley, Karen Smith, Miss Chloe Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (The Schengen Macleod, Mary Smith, Julian Protocol). Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Sir Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Soames, rh Nicholas Maynard, Paul Soubry, Anna 9.32 pm McCartney, Jason Spencer, Mr Mark McCartney, Karl Stanley, rh Sir John Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): McIntosh, Miss Anne Stephenson, Andrew On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would appreciate McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stewart, Bob your ruling on the appropriateness of commencing this McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Iain important debate on the national planning policy McVey, Esther Stewart, Rory Mensch, Louise Streeter, Mr Gary framework with only about half an hour of parliamentary Menzies, Mark Stride, Mel time available. Surely this is shambolic organisation, Mercer, Patrick Stunell, Andrew mirroring the NPPF process itself. Would it be possible Metcalfe, Stephen Sturdy, Julian to have the debate rescheduled, bearing in mind the Miller, Maria Swales, Ian commitment given by the Minister in this House on Mills, Nigel Swayne, rh Mr Desmond 27 March to have a full parliamentary debate on the Milton, Anne Swinson, Jo subject? Moore, rh Michael Swire, rh Mr Hugo Mordaunt, Penny Syms, Mr Robert Morgan, Nicky Thurso, John Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Morris, Anne Marie Timpson, Mr Edward point of order. The time available for this debate was Morris, James Tomlinson, Justin always to be a function of the amount of time taken by Mosley, Stephen Tredinnick, David earlier proceedings, and therefore what was left at the Mowat, David Truss, Elizabeth end. However, as the scheduling of business is a matter Mulholland, Greg Tyrie, Mr Andrew for the Government and as the Minister leading the Mundell, rh David Uppal, Paul debate is here, and no less a figure than the Deputy Munt, Tessa Vaizey, Mr Edward Leader of the House is in his place, it is open to, though Murray, Sheryll Vickers, Martin not obligatory for, either of those distinguished hon. or Murrison, Dr Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa right hon. Members to respond to the hon. Lady’s point Neill, Robert Walker, Mr Robin of order, if either wishes to do so. 911 Data Protection in the Areas of Police 24 APRIL 2012 912 and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) The Minister of State, Department for Communities National Planning Policy Framework and Local Government (Greg Clark): Mr Speaker, I am anxious to get on with the debate. I have had some [Relevant Documents: Oral and written evidence to the indications from my right hon. and hon. Friends that, Environmental Audit Committee, on Sustainable Development although we may commence the debate this evening, it in the National Planning Policy Framework, HC 1480; will be possible for us to continue it in the days ahead. I the Eighth Report from the Communities and Local hope that we can make a start and that Members can Government Committee, on The National Planning Policy make their contribution on this very important subject. Framework, HC 1526, and the Government response, Cm 8322.]

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman 9.34 pm for what he has just said. The Minister of State, Department for Communities We now come to the motion relating to the national and Local Government (Greg Clark): I beg to move, planning policy framework, and I shall deny the Minister, That this House has considered the matter of the National who is so eager and enthusiastic, not a moment longer. Planning Policy Framework. It is a pleasure to open this debate, as we promised to have at the earliest opportunity a debate on the national planning policy framework. I did not expect it to be in two parts, but never mind. Good things come to those who wait. I begin with a word of thanks to colleagues in all parts of the House who contributed to the consultation on the national planning policy framework, including the Chairs of the two Select Committees who gave distinguished reports and who are present here tonight and will, I hope, be able to speak later in the debate. I thank those who contributed in previous debates that we have had in the House. We have had one debate here and two in the other place, all of which were important contributors to the scrutiny of the framework. I want to thank every Member who wrote on behalf of their constituents. My own constituency, Tunbridge Wells, is famous for its letter writers. I thought we were unparalleled in the volume of correspondence that we could generate, but I have discovered during the past few months that there are many such constituencies, including Cheltenham, Hitchin and Harpenden, and West Worcestershire. So Tunbridge Wells must respond to a challenge that I had not anticipated. All the points that have been made by Members during debates, by the Select Committees and in letters have been carefully taken into account. I hope that as we conduct the debate we will reflect and Members will be able to identify the particular contributions that they made and they will see them preserved for posterity in the framework.

Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): My right hon. Friend will be aware that the postbag was bulging with representations from the constituents of Devizes. He will be glad to hear that when I took members of the Trust for Devizes through the current proposals, they warmly welcomed the changes and thanked him for listening.

Greg Clark: I am delighted to hear that from my hon. Friend. She is right in saying that the contribution of the constituents of Devizes to the NPPF has been signal and will be there for posterity. It has been right to conduct this consultation using an approach that seeks to build consensus. After all, the consequences of planning extend beyond any particular Government or Parliament. It is right to have sought to reflect all the different contributions. 913 National Planning Policy Framework24 APRIL 2012 National Planning Policy Framework 914

[Greg Clark] “our regional spatial strategies and our approach to planning…was too top-down”.—[Official Report, 30 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 272WH.] Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): What importance That is a matter of consensus across the House. is to be attached to the protection of the natural environment, particularly where it abuts existing urban Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): Does my right hon. communities, and what about the protection and the Friend agree that he probably inherited a planning greening of the urban environment where it already system that meant that constituents such as mine felt exists in our towns? completely divorced from any achievement in the planning system? In fact, they had no say whatsoever in the Greg Clark: Both points are of the utmost importance chaotic system of house building that meant that and were reflected by my hon. Friend in his contribution constituencies such as mine were inundated with planning to the consultation. I will have more to say about that as applications that they had no say over. I make progress. It was, I think, Sir Winston Churchill who said, “We Greg Clark: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. shape our buildings and afterwards our buildings shape I am delighted to welcome a new convert to localism. us.” That might be applied to planning policy, so it is I chided the shadow Secretary of State when we published right that we have taken the approach that we did. Our the framework and said, perhaps unfairly, that he was reforms have three objectives—first, to transfer power an old centralist. It must have had quite an effect, to communities, to give them more power and authority because he has now published an article, in The Daily in the planning system than they have been used to Telegraph of all places, in which he gives a paean of having for many years; secondly, to ensure that we praise to localism. He writes: support the building of the homes that the next generation “I want to see a radical devolution of power to local communities. will need and the jobs that all our constituents need We should do this both because it is right and because there is so now and in the future; and thirdly to ensure that the much skill and potential in every community to make more of its next generation inherits an environment, natural and own decisions.” historic, that is at least the equal of the environment I could not have put it better myself and am delighted that we inherited. In my view, it should be better than that he has been converted to the cause. the environment that we inherited. I believe in progress. David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I am sure that Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): the Minister will agree that if we are to have efficient Will the Minister recognise that as a result of two years planning policy there needs to be consistency in planning of almost unprecedented chaos and confusion about decisions right across the United Kingdom. where planning policy is going, we now see the lowest level of housing starts that has been recorded in recent Greg Clark: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. history? Does he accept that what he has done is to There were more than 1,000 pages of planning policy create a climate where the entire house building industry across 44 different documents of various vintages, so is deeply worried about the prospects of new homes, contradictions between them were inevitable, and that and the custodians of the countryside are equally worried was one of the reasons for the inconsistency. Part of the about whether the countryside is safe? That is the point of consolidating them into a single document is to record that he has achieved over the past two years and make it easier to have consistency. he should apologise for the mess that he has caused. Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): Residents of Bromley Greg Clark: The right hon. Gentleman, of whom I am are reassured by the reiteration of protections for the fond, is confusing his own record with that of the green belt, but can my right hon. Friend guarantee that Government. It was his Government who, in over a metropolitan open land and urban open spaces will decade in power, built on average the lowest number of continue to enjoy the protections that they currently houses in peacetime in the past 100 years. Since the low enjoy under the new NPPF? point for house building during the recession, housing starts are up by 25%. I commend to him what his right Greg Clark: Yes, and I know how important that is in hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne my hon. Friend’s constituency. (John Healey) has said: “I inherited the regional spatial strategies”. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): This I think that the right hon. Member for Greenwich and debate on the NPPF is timely, because the Public Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) had something to do with Administration Committee today highlighted the dire those. absence of a strategic approach to complex challenges from the Government. Can the Minister begin to reassure Mr Raynsford: No. us that he really understands the need for strategic leadership by telling us what resources, guidance and assistance he will provide to ensure that local authorities Greg Clark: Another person who is keen not to be have the capacity to deliver carbon reductions in line associated with the strategies—I understand that. The with the Climate Change Act 2008, as foreseen by the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne said that NPPF? he “quickly found that they had…few friends”— Greg Clark: The hon. Lady is absolutely right that, as The right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich is we transfer power to local authorities, it is right to another ex-friend. The right hon. Gentleman continued: support them in producing local plans, including those 915 National Planning Policy Framework24 APRIL 2012 National Planning Policy Framework 916 on environmental matters, and setting ambitious standards By putting power into the hands of local people so that they expect for local buildings and contributions to they see that decisions are going to be taken locally and the built environment, and we will support them in that. respected locally, part of the purpose of our reforms is If she talks with her colleagues in the Local Government to move away from the situation in which decisions Association, she will see that they recognise that the taken locally are overturned by the Planning Inspectorate. engagement we have had has been very productive. I have made that very clear to the inspectorate. I went to Let me make progress and mention some of the speak to the inspectorate the morning after we published features of the new NPPF, which reflect the contributions the NPPF, and I made it very clear that the framework that Members from both sides of the House have made. is a localist document which it is to respect. The NPPF makes it crystal clear, as most people recognise, that the local plan is the keystone of the planning Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab) rose— system. It continues to protect our green belt and other areas, such as sites of special scientific interest and Greg Clark: I shall give way to the Chairman of the national parks, which are of great importance to us. It Communities and Local Government Committee and recognises the intrinsic value of the countryside as then make some progress. something we hold very dear. It establishes the importance of bringing brownfield sites back into use. It recognises and reinforces the importance of town centres. It embraces Mr Betts: The document that the Government have the five pillars of the UK’s sustainable development now produced is clearly an awful lot better than the strategy, something that I know the hon. Member for draft, and the Minister has complimented the Committee Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) pressed on us during on the report that we produced, but in the end the real the consultation, but it goes further, because that was test is whether the new guidance is better than the old not stretching enough, and it requires net gains for guidance—presumably whether, as a result of the changes, nature. It has the most exacting design standards ever we get more houses built, more green energy projects seen in the English planning system, it allows councils approved and more development in general. But, if the to protects gardens, it provides robust protection for sum total of all local decisions to which the Minister playing fields, it gives 12 months’ transitional arrangements has referred does not account for the amount of growth and it ensures that no council is disadvantaged if it has that the Government want to see delivered in the economy done the right thing and prepared local plans. as a whole, what will be the Government’s answer to that? Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Members have been quick to congratulate the Minister, as I do, on Greg Clark: We do expect to see more homes delivered, listening to the feedback that he received about the and one feature of the previous system was that, despite draft NPPF, but is he as confident that, as a result of having national and regional targets, it bore no relation those changes, local authorities will make changes to to what was being built on the ground. Our contention, their local plans, or do we risk them carrying on in the which has been established through the consultation, is same direction that they were heading in before? that if we work with the grain of people, if people have the types of homes that they want to see in their environment, and if we raise design standards so that Greg Clark: We have seen great enthusiasm on the people feel that they are a positive contribution to the part of councils, which have campaigned for as many years built environment, we are likely to avoid the contention as many Members to have the ability and the authority that has thwarted the delivery of homes. Such delivery to produce plans themselves. Despite the fact that they is crucial to all our constituents: we cannot go on with a have been required since 2004 to adopt local plans, only situation in which we fail to provide homes and employment about half have been able to do so, and we want to see spaces for them. that speeded up, because the essence of localism is that local decisions are taken locally in accordance with a The outcome of the consultation has proved satisfactory plan that reflects all the views of local people. to many commentators. Almost everyone who commented did so favourably, and they might give the hon. Gentleman some confidence in the idea that the people who gave Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): I am completely evidence to his inquiry feel positive about the results. with my right hon. Friend on the consistent application of the plans, on the local plans themselves and on local It is fair to say that the outcome is going to be good people being involved, but what then of the final piece for the economy. The CBI said that it of the jigsaw, the reform of the Planning Inspectorate, “gets the balance right between supporting jobs and growth, and which in many rulings completely contradicts all local serving the interests of the environment and society.” input? The Institute of Directors said: “It is great to see hundreds of…unnecessary rules being cut out Greg Clark: Part of the problem with the Planning of the planning system... Britain needs to get building again and Inspectorate is that, in the regime to date, it has been these reforms allow that to happen”. required to interpret voluminous national planning That addresses the hon. Gentleman’s point directly. regulations—many times in a state of inconsistency—and to apply regional spatial strategies. The conflict between The NPPF is good for anyone who needs a home. those things, caused by successive Governments and, in The National Housing Federation, which, as Members particular, by the previous Government’s imposition of know, represents social housing providers, said: regional strategies, often leads in the planning system to “The NPPF will give England the simpler, speedier and more a real tension and often antagonism, which is a disaster positive planning system it needs.” for the future prosperity of our country. The Home Builders Federation said: 917 National Planning Policy Framework24 APRIL 2012 National Planning Policy Framework 918

[Greg Clark] It is good for our historic assets. English Heritage said: “Thank you for your confident engagement with EH. Between “The new system strikes a sensible balance between economic us we should have secured our fabulous historic environment. We growth, social need and environmental considerations.” are well pleased with the result”. It also stated that it is The NPPF is good for local democracy. The Local “a sound basis for a more pro-growth planning system”. Government Association said that The NPPF is good for the countryside and rural “local people will have a real say” prosperity. The Country Land and Business Association and that the framework will said: “The section on supporting a prosperous rural economy is “make it easier for town halls to tailor the planning system excellent, laying the foundations for the growth of all types of towards supporting growth that meets the area’s needs.” business in rural areas.” The National Association of Local Councils, which The framework is good for town centres. The British represents parish and town councils, said that the proposals Retail Consortium said: “will empower communities and local councils to energise their “The NPPF should do a lot to boost the country’s high streets neighbourhoods”. and encourage vibrant town centres.” The NPPF is good for everyone. The National Trust It goes on: said: “These practical measures…should help bring a boost to local “Thank you for listening to our concerns and those of our economies.” members. It is a remarkable achievement to have united almost all of the disparate voices involved”. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): On the future of the I think that the “almost” might have referred to some countryside, the Minister will be aware that the exceptions Opposition Members, but I have not given up on them. approach to housing in rural areas is helpful in delivering affordable housing to rural communities, particularly in Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I am sure deeply rural areas. Will the Minister reassure me and that my right hon. Friend is coming to this point, but as the House that after the transition period, when I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary save the pub sure many rural authorities will not have put their local group, I commend him and the ministerial team on plans back in place, the exceptions policy will be deliverable including pubs in the national planning policy framework across the countryside, because that is essential? for the first time. Will he ensure that the message goes out strongly that this is not the end of the matter? Local Greg Clark: It certainly will be. What I did not say authorities will have the responsibility of ensuring that was that the National Housing Federation specifically local services such as pubs, post offices and local shops commended the inclusion of the exceptions policy in are protected. Council planning departments can no the draft NPPF. longer ignore that consideration, because it is becoming The framework is good for sport. The Rugby Football their responsibility. Union, the Football Association, the England and Wales Cricket Board, the Lawn Tennis Association and the Greg Clark: My hon. Friend has made a distinguished Rugby Football League said: contribution to the debate. Modesty alone forbade me “We all welcome the safeguards for sport contained within the from including the praise that was sent by the representatives NPPF. Thank you for your support and commitment to the of the pub companies. sports sector—we are extremely grateful”. The NPPF is good for excellence in design. The Royal Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I congratulate Institute of British Architects said: the Minister on all his congratulations, which are well “We are delighted that the Government has accepted many of deserved. When it comes to local democracy, the framework the key recommendations put forward by the RIBA.” compares very favourably with the regional spatial strategies, It stated that the framework which wasted tens of millions of pounds and generated “will send a clear message to developers, planning officers and tens of thousands of objections. Does he accept that committees that poor quality development will no longer be there is a slight risk that when local plans come to be accepted.” examined in public, we will again see the influence of The Design Council said that it the Planning Inspectorate and elements of the local plans may be overturned? Does he agree that when it “wanted to say how much we welcome the fresh approach to design and to raising the bar on design standards to new comes to local plans, the default answer from the Planning heights”. Inspectorate ought to be yes? The framework is good for wildlife. The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds said: Greg Clark: I met the Planning Inspectorate and “We had 3 red lines for a successful NPPF and these have all almost all the planning inspectors who were in conference been met. The NPPF properly reflects the ambitions of the”— in Bristol the day after the NPPF was launched. I made it crystal clear that it provided for a localist approach natural environment White Paper— and provided a framework for local decisions, and that I “to halt the decline in biodiversity and to secure net gains”. expected decisions to be taken in that vein. I will also The NPPF is good for the arts. The Theatres Trust expect to see a sample of the decisions that are being said: taken, including after the examination of plans, to “we celebrate a national planning policy that not only recognises ensure that that is happening. On the basis of my direct culture, it also creates specific policies that both plan positively discussions with the Planning Inspectorate, I am very for cultural facilities and guard against their loss.” confident that that is understood. 919 National Planning Policy Framework24 APRIL 2012 National Planning Policy Framework 920

Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I am extremely Greg Clark: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. What grateful to the Minister for allowing me to interrupt his Totnes does today, the rest of the country will do long line of congratulations. We half expected a telegram tomorrow. We are taking the spirit of Totnes around the from the Queen and a note from his mum at some point. country and people are responding with enthusiasm. They are on their way. The serious point is that the Government have promised a lot on the subject of Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): localism, but two years in, many local communities feel Did the Minister receive letters of congratulation from that even the reforms that the Minister has put forward planning lawyers? have not delivered localism. What will he do to encourage communities to be confident that the Government will Greg Clark: Not especially, but I hope they will have not turn their back on them? time on their hands in future to engage in some retraining. Greg Clark: I confess that I was not able to include a I am grateful for all the time and effort that many telegram from the Queen, but I understand that the Members put into the consultation. We took it seriously, Prince’s Foundation for Building Community is extremely and I am glad to say that the framework has been positive about the NPPF. strengthened as a result. I am determined that having had that role in the development of the framework, We find great enthusiasm across the country. In fact, Parliament should continue to supervise its implementation. I believe the hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta It will have a further opportunity to do that when the Blackman-Woods) is one of the champions of a debate is continued in the days ahead. Beyond that, as neighbourhood plan in the city. Right across the country, well as the work of Select Committees and Question people are taking up their new rights with great interest Time, I hope we will have the opportunity in the years and enthusiasm. ahead to have regular debates on planning policy in the Chamber. Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I thank my The fact that over the past few months planning right hon. Friend for being so generous in allowing policy has come into the public eye and been widely interventions. Has he found from talking to parish debated is a good thing. I want to continue in that vein councils, as I have, that one thing that appeals to them not only so that people get involved in planning locally, about the NPPF is the simplification of the system, but so that the subject engages the whole House, as it is which means that they and their local residents can entitled to do. actually understand the framework without needing a highly paid solicitor or lawyer to give them advice as they did before? 10 pm Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). Greg Clark: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. To have a localist approach and allow people to engage Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): On a point with the planning system locally, the NPPF needs to be of order, Mr Speaker, of which I have given you notice. intelligible to them. People have concluded that it is not Very recently, in the course of an Adjournment debate, only shorter but written in a style that is accessible to both an hon. Labour Member and myself were refused people in communities. That is what planning is about— by a Minister the opportunity to make a brief intervention people coming together in communities to express a while he had the floor. He explained in all sincerity vision for their future. We have to let them in. afterwards that he thought one had to ask permission in advance of an Adjournment debate—both of the hon. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Is my right hon. Friend Member whose Adjournment debate it is and of the encouraged, as I am, that although it was feared that Minister concerned—whether one could make such an neighbourhoods would not accept development, the intervention. For the sake of the clarity, would you very first neighbourhood plan to come forward—in make an pronouncement on that? If, as I suspect, Dawlish, I understand—included proposals for a new interventions do not require that sort of prior permission, housing development? Does he find that as encouraging would you undertake to let Ministers know for the as other Government Members do? future?

Greg Clark: I do indeed, and that is not untypical. In Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the town of Thame, in the constituency of my Parliamentary his point of order and for his advance notice of his Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Henley intention to raise it. The answer is that permission to (John Howell), a neighbourhood plan is being promoted intervene in an Adjournment debate is not required that involves the provision of housing for local people. from the Minister, the Member whose debate it is or the We are seeing that across the country. Chair. Permission is required if a Member is seeking to make a speech in the debate. I am constantly struck by Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I congratulate how little understood that important distinction is between the Minister on an excellent consultation, which showed interventions, which do not require permission, and all Departments how it should be done. Localism really speeches, which do. I hope the position is now clear to matters to our constituents, and nowhere more so than the hon. Gentleman and the House, and I am very in Totnes. Their only regret is that it has come late, and happy to inform Ministers more widely, either directly, they would like to be able to set back the clock and have or through the good offices of the right hon. Gentleman local consultation on a number of projects, such as the who serves as the Patronage Secretary, and who conveniently Riverside development, that are causing great local is loitering, with or without intent, at the Bar of the concern. House. I hope that is helpful. 921 24 APRIL 2012 Business without Debate 922

Business without Debate BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUNDAY TRADING (LONDON OLYMPIC GAMES AND PARALYMPIC GAMES) BILL) [LORDS] DELEGATED LEGISLATION Ordered, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing That, in respect of the Sunday Trading (London Olympic Order No. 118(6)), Games and Paralympic Games) Bill [Lords], notices of Amendments, new Clauses and new Schedules to be moved in Committee may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before the Bill has been PUBLIC BODIES read a second time.—(Stephen Crabb.) That the draft Public Bodies (Abolition of Courts Boards) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 31 January, be approved.—( Stephen Crabb.) DELEGATED LEGISLATION Question agreed to. Ordered, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing That the Motion in the name of Mr Peter Lilley relating to the Order No. 118(6)), House of Commons Members’ Fund shall be treated as if it related to an instrument subject to the provisions of Standing Order No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees) in respect of DANGEROUS DRUGS which notice of a motion has been given that the instrument be That the draft Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) approved.—(Stephen Crabb.) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 28 February, be approved. —( Stephen Crabb.) PETITION Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Broadband Services (Dodworth, South Yorkshire) Order No. 118(6)), 10.3 pm FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO INDUSTRY Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I That this House authorises the Secretary of State to undertake have a petition from 240 residents of Dodworth in my to pay, and to pay by way of financial assistance under section 8 of the Industrial Development Act 1982, in respect of United constituency about the quality of broadband services in Kingdom Green Investments, sums exceeding £10 million and up their area. to a cumulative total of £775 million.—(Stephen Crabb.) The petition states: Question agreed to. The Petition of residents of Dodworth, Declares that the Petitioners believe that broadband provision in the Dodworth Water Royd and Rose Hill estates is inadequate EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS and is among the slowest service in the UK; further declares that Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the Petitioners believe that as time goes on the area will lag Order No. 119(11)), further behind in broadband speed, still struggling with a connection measured in megabits per second while the rest of the country has access to speeds measured in gigabits per second; further declares VALUE ADDED TAXATION that this disparity will have a negative impact on those living in That this House takes note of European Union Document the area who will be unable to access internet services in future, No. 18288/11, relating to a Commission Communication on the which will have knock-on effects on lifestyle, prosperity, and in all future of VAT: Towards a simpler, more robust and efficient VAT likelihood, property prices; further declares that the Petitioners system tailored to the single market; welcomes the objectives of believe that the problem in this area is that there is no access to a moving towards a simpler, more efficient, robust and fraud-proof local fibre street cabinet, which means that connections are made EU VAT system; shares the Government’s view that priority through around 6.5km of copper wire, resulting in slower connection should be given to ensuring that the 2015 VAT Package changes, speeds; and declares that the Petitioners believe that such a including the introduction of the VAT mini One Stop Shop, to the cabinet could be installed without the need to dig up roads or continuation of a broad-based EU dialogue on making the current pavements. system work better, and to appropriate measures to protect and The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons secure revenues; and supports the Government’s commitment to urges the Government to take all possible steps to ensure that counter unhelpful proposals that might lead to an erosion of UK residents of the Dodworth Water Royd and Rose Hill estates in national sovereignty, or result in tax matters being dealt with Dodworth are able to access broadband services that are of otherwise than in Council on a unanimous basis.—(Stephen comparable speeds to those available elsewhere in the country. Crabb.) And the Petitioners remain, etc. Question agreed to. [P001021] 923 24 APRIL 2012 Group Lotus 924

Group Lotus James Bond films, notably in “The Spy Who Loved Me”, when a Lotus Esprit memorably transformed into Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House a submarine. do now adjourn.—(Stephen Crabb.)

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Gentleman 10.4 pm says that there is a lot of Chinese interest. I also understand there is interest from the Formula 1 Lotus Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): I am very team in taking over the firm and protecting every one of grateful for the opportunity to draw the attention of the those jobs. Does he agree that its bid should be the one House to the situation currently facing Group Lotus, that is chosen? the largest employer in my South Norfolk constituency, and the potential threat to 1,200 local jobs. I am very pleased to see parliamentary colleagues here from Norfolk Mr Bacon: I certainly agree that it should be given the and I have received messages from my hon. Friends the most serious consideration. I understand that the owners Members for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) and of Lotus F1, which by the way came second and third in for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), both of whom the recent Bahrain grand prix, have expressed an interest would have wanted be here in their capacity as local and said that they would see no reason to move any of Norfolk MPs, but who are both sadly overseas on the business away from the UK. Their views should be Government business. treated with the greatest care and consideration. Group Lotus is a local and a national icon. It is a The production side of the business has been doing famous sports car manufacturer with a very special very well and has built tens of thousands of relatively heritage, and also an important global engineering affordable and cutting-edge sports cars, employing many consultancy. The central concern is that following the local people in the process. The consulting side has been Malaysian Government’s recent sale of its stake in so successful over the years that it is said that one in Proton Holdings—a Malaysian company that is the 10 cars in Europe has something in it that derives from owner of Group Lotus—to another Malaysian company, Lotus’s intellectual property. DRB-HICOM, the new owner may respond to what are Lotus moved in 1966 to Hethel in South Norfolk to a said to be a number of Chinese businesses that would purpose-built facility on the site of a former US air like to buy Lotus and relocate the manufacturing to China. force airfield. The business now employs around 1,400 The CEO, Dany Bahar, has stated publicly in a recent worldwide, some 1,200 of whom work at the Hethel interview that it would “make no sense” to move headquarters. In 1996, Lotus was bought by Proton manufacturing. However, he also stated the exact opposite Holdings, a Malaysian car manufacturer. Lotus has at the Paris motor show in October 2010 and at the Los experienced financial difficulties at times, but it was Angeles motor show in November 2010, when it was profitable as recently as 2008-09, when the Group Lotus stated that production would shift abroad and that a annual accounts show a profit before tax of £1.5 million. new factory site would be decided on before Christmas. It is important to emphasise this point as one will find One Chinese business, China Youngman, has had a many incorrect references in the automotive press to the commercial relationship with Lotus for many years. “fact” that Group Lotus has never made a profit since it The great fear in South Norfolk is that there will be a was bought by Proton, when the actual facts are that repeat of the MG Rover saga when the remnants of a the company has been profitable quite recently. Lotus once great British car company were picked up from the has a great story to tell and is at the heart of an scrap heap and put on a boat to China. innovation cluster. The recent and growing success of It is worth setting out why Lotus is so important and the Hethel engineering centre in nurturing a variety of why its continued presence in the UK is so important. high-tech small businesses has been due, in large measure, The company was founded in 1952 by Colin Chapman, to the pres ence of Lotus nearby. There are also wider a legendary designer and inventor who, it is probably no benefits along the A11 corridor that my hon. Friend the exaggeration to say, was an engineering genius. At the Member for Mid Norfolk will address if he catches your heart of Chapman’s philosophy for automotive design eye, Mr Speaker. was his famous maxim, “Simplify, then add lightness.” If Lotus were removed, it would be a body blow to His approach was driven by the belief that while adding the growing success of a local economy that is succeeding power made a vehicle faster on the straights, subtracting precisely as part of the shift away from the overdependence weight made it faster everywhere, and so he focused on on financial services that the Government wish to see. lightness and fine handling rather than on huge horsepower. To this day, Lotus is well known across the world for its unparalleled understanding of drive dynamics. Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate on a Lotus has made so many contributions to the history hugely important employer and an iconic name for of automotive engineering which are still influential—and Norfolk. Does he agree that one reason we can highlight in many cases in use today in one form or another—that Lotus’s excellent forward thinking is its recent fantastic it is not possible to do justice to all of them in this work on alternative energies for vehicles that has led to short debate, although they include the first ever use in products such as the Tesla? a Formula 1 car of a reclining driving position; a monocoque chassis design; aerofoil wings; a wedge-shaped front; adjustable suspension; and many other important Mr Bacon: I can confirm that. I will talk later about innovations. This approach was rewarded with seven the Tesla, which is a great example of the leading-edge Formula 1 constructors championships and six drivers technology that makes Lotus very interesting to a wide championships, and Lotus’s cars have twice appeared in variety of potential financiers. 925 Group Lotus24 APRIL 2012 Group Lotus 926

[Mr Bacon] powerful economy and global connections. The Malaysian Government held a large stake in Proton for many In common with many businesses since the beginning years, but made it clear that they no longer wished to of the worldwide financial crunch, things have been retain this stake. In early January, Tun Mahathir gave more difficult, but many observers believe that Lotus his public blessing to the sale of the stake to DRB-HICOM, continues to have a bright future and tremendous potential, a major industrial conglomerate with a wide variety of particularly given the company’s expertise in areas such interests. as those that my hon. Friend the Member for Great On 16 January, HICOM announced that it had bought Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis) mentioned, including electric the Malaysian Government’s stake in Proton and thus and hybrid vehicles. These skills make Lotus a very become the ultimate owners of Group Lotus. Incidentally, sought-after partner for car companies across the world. on the same date, Group Lotus announced the opening of a major brand store in London’s Regent Street. Only Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): Does three days earlier, on 13 January 2012, a UK-registered my hon. Friend agree that engineering skills are vital for company, Lotus Youngman UK Automotive Company Norfolk and that the creation of the proposed maths Limited, company number 7909455, was incorporated and science free school for 16 to 18-year-olds will be at Companies House—that was just three days before important to the development of those skills and to HICOM bought Proton—with the chief executive officer Lotus and other engineering companies across the county? of Group Lotus, Dany Bahar, as one of its directors. Curiously, that was not announced to the Malaysian Mr Bacon: I agree that the so-called STEM subjects— stock exchange until several months later, on Thursday science, technology, engineering and maths—are vital 12 April. to firms such as Lotus, and I am keen to see those That is of particular concern because, as has been developed through the proposal for a school specialising reported in the newspapers, the CEO of Group Lotus, in them. Dany Bahar, has a financial incentive in his contract to It is important to note that although Lotus’s contribution sell the company, and because Group Lotus no longer to the history of technology and innovation is already owns the right to use the name “Lotus” on cars sold in imperishable, it has not stopped. In this Olympic year, it China. That right is now owned by a small Taiwanese is worth pointing out that Chris Boardman won the company, which licenses it to China Youngman,a potential 4,000 metre pursuit gold medal at the Barcelona Olympics buyer of Group Lotus that is already importing Lotus riding a revolutionary lightweight and aerodynamic cars into China. That is an odd thing for any car carbon composite monocoque bicycle developed by company to do, particularly one whose brand and the Lotus. He also rode the Lotus “superbike” to smash the heritage are so important. The brand is a central part of world 5,000 metre pursuit record by more than 8 seconds. the company’s value, and it is hard to imagine selling it Tesla Motors, which my hon. Friend the Member for to others so that it could not use its own brand name in Great Yarmouth mentioned, is a business based in a territory without let or hindrance, but that appears to California whose investors included, among others, the be what has happened. owners of Google. It asked Lotus to develop a fully By coincidence, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister electric car, and the Tesla roadster was built in Norfolk was in Malaysia recently, and he spoke to the head of and then exported to California with extraordinary Proton, Dato’ Sri Syed Zainal. Unfortunately, it appears success. that only hours after our Prime Minister had spoken to the head of Proton to emphasise the importance of Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): I congratulate British jobs at Group Lotus, Dato’ Sri Syed was in the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate on a subject China seeking a buyer for Group Lotus. That has that is so important for Norfolk’s economy. Whenever I naturally caused immense worry and concern for the have visited Lotus, I have been impressed to learn about 1,200 employees at Group Lotus. It is also unnecessary, its advances in low-carbon vehicle technologies. The because there are well-capitalised potential buyers for UK car industry is a world leader in this area. Does he Group Lotus with a credible plan to keep the business agree that if Lotus were to leave Norfolk and the UK, it and the jobs in the UK. would risk losing access to skills and expertise and When I raised the issue with the our Prime Minister jeopardising its ability further to develop its reputation last week at Question Time, he emphasised the importance in low-carbon technologies? of Lotus, saying that he had raised the issue with the Malaysian Prime Minister and that the Government Mr Bacon: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I were monitoring the situation closely. My fear is that, have talked about Lotus’s heritage, which is of stunning even if an agreement is reached, any guarantees that historical importance, but it is the future we are concerned might be provided about British jobs will later turn out about. Lotus has demonstrated, with things such as the to be worthless. The Kraft Foods takeover of Cadbury Tesla project, the tremendous contribution it can make comes to mind in this respect. to the future and its expertise in hybrid and electric One way of accomplishing a transfer to a Chinese vehicles. owner against the wishes of many of the interested Proton, the Malaysian car manufacturer that has parties would be to reach an agreement in principle to owned Lotus since 1996 and invested considerably in it, sell Group Lotus but to present it as a joint venture was founded in the early 1980s under the stewardship of rather than a sale, then to wait until after the Malaysian the then Malaysian Prime Minister, Tun Mahathir, who, elections—Lotus is rightly valued by many in Malaysia it is fair to say, is something of a visionary who has as a jewel in Proton’s crown and the issue could become probably done more than anyone else to create the politically divisive—and have a Chinese buyer such as Malaysia we know today—a modern country with a China Youngman acquire 100% of the business after 927 Group Lotus24 APRIL 2012 Group Lotus 928 the Malaysian elections were safely out of the way, 10.20 pm transferring manufacturing to a new Chinese owner George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): I am grateful later. One could even have a private side agreement to for this opportunity to speak. While Lotus is in the that effect. constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for South People in Norfolk, most notably the loyal and hard- Norfolk (Mr Bacon), it is only a mile over our shared working Lotus employees, want to ensure that that does boundary and many of the 1,200 employees and the not happen. I have asked HICOM to consider carefully affected families live in Mid Norfolk, particularly around its responsibilities to local employees and I hope that it Wymondham. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member will do so. However, I remain extremely concerned. The on securing this debate and on setting out the arguments fact that KPMG has been appointed with a mandate to so clearly. I am keen to give the Minister as much time sell Group Lotus to the Chinese is not an encouraging as possible to address the important issues, so I shall sign. Nor is the fact that the Malaysian banks want make just three simple points. their money back from Proton. I fear that Proton will say that it has decided to keep Lotus, while negotiating First, the presence of Lotus and its legacy has led to with the banks for as long as possible to write off or the creation in the area of a world-class cluster of reduce debt, then either hand what is left of Group engineering, manifested in both the world-class factory Lotus to the Chinese or liquidate it. The question for and the expertise around it, and in the Hethel engineering Proton in such circumstances would be: is it planning to centre—a successful and now full incubator of successful pay the suppliers? That is relevant because there are start-up businesses, feeding off and around the centre tens of millions of pounds of accounts receivable of excellence around Lotus. A cluster of former Lotus outstanding, and many further jobs in the supply chain employees, many of them successfully trading and beyond those at Group Lotus itself are affected. innovating, often from small premises around the area, provide an important part of our local economy. Mr Keith Simpson (Broadland) (Con): Following my Secondly, the engineering cluster is central to the hon. Friend’s logic, what does he think our Government Norfolk economy and, indeed, the wider East Anglian can actually do, apart from using persuasion and nudging innovation economy and to the wider rebalancing mission the people who might be carrying out the actions about that I know is central to the mission of the Department which he is rightly pessimistic? for Business, Innovation and Skills. Thirdly, these engineering and manufacturing skills Mr Bacon: The job of Her Majesty’s Government is are central to unlocking the full value of the wider to make it very clear to the Malaysian Government and innovation economy—in particular, the science we have to the company that is the ultimate owner—DRB- on the Norwich research park in the form of biomedicine, HICOM—that we take this matter very seriously, and agriculture and environmental science, and indeed, dare that if it goes the wrong way, there will be serious I say it, down the A11, in the innovation corridor in consequences for our relationship with Malaysia. Cambridge. We have huge intellectual property skills in To sum up the situation, the CEO of Proton Holdings— our area. In the past, we have sometimes been weaker in who is now in any case only a temporary figure—was in the ability to turn that intellectual property into products China seeking a buyer for Group Lotus only hours after that we can sell. The skills in this cluster are central to our Prime Minister spoke to him in Malaysia recently. developing and retaining that value within our Anglian A UK-registered company, Lotus Youngman, was set economy. up in January 2012, only three days before HICOM I am sure I am speaking for other hon. Members bought Proton, with Group Lotus CEO Dany Bahar as across East Anglia, some of whom are in their places a director, but this was not announced to the Malaysian and some of whom are not, in urging the Minister to do stock exchange until a fortnight ago. The CEO of all he can to ensure that the points raised by my hon. Group Lotus is incentivised in his contract to sell Group Friend are given all possible attention, and to bring as Lotus and has recently been in China. Any letter of much pressure to bear as possible to keep this iconic comfort guaranteeing jobs in Norfolk that might appear and important business in the UK. from a Chinese buyer is unlikely to be worth much, if anything at all, especially given that KPMG has a 10.22 pm mandate to sell the business. However, there are well- capitalised would-be buyers of Group Lotus who would The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation definitely keep the business and the jobs in Norfolk, and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): I congratulate my hon. and 1,200 jobs are at risk in my South Norfolk constituency Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) on if this goes the wrong way. securing this debate and on his energetic advocacy on I would urge the Minister and all his colleagues, behalf of his constituents, not just today, but previously. including the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister, He is right to say, as other Members have pointed out, to put all possible pressure on the Malaysian Government that Group Lotus is one of largest private sector employers to ensure that DRB-HICOM permits the sale of Group in the area, so I understand the importance that he Lotus only to a bidder who will provide credible guarantees and––as is plain from the attendance this evening––the for the future of the business as an ongoing concern in vast majority of Norfolk representatives attach to the Norfolk. I would like the British Government to make issue. They want to ensure that we as a Chamber very clear to the Malaysian Government, and to DRB- understand how importantly their constituents view HICOM, that they consider the issue of local jobs in this matter. Norfolk to be of crucial importance and that a betrayal Today’s debate follows on from parliamentary questions of the kind we have seen elsewhere in the corporate from my hon. Friend, from correspondence and, indeed, sector is unacceptable and would have far-reaching from considerable speculation in the media. I know that consequences. he will appreciate that I cannot comment on media 929 Group Lotus24 APRIL 2012 Group Lotus 930

[Mr Mark Prisk] producers are generating what customers throughout the world are looking for. That is why our car trade speculation, but as I made clear to him last night, when deficit is at its lowest for more than 36 years. There are a we had an opportunity to discuss the issue—with him number of good examples. Nissan has invested £250 million, having raised it and me wanting to ensure that I understood creating the possibility of some 3,000 new jobs in both the detail of his concerns—he should understand that its own business and its supply chain. Jaguar Land the whole of the Government take this matter extremely Rover has announced that it will take on a further 1,000 seriously, and we are already actively engaged in it. people and increase shifts at its Halewood plant. Honda is to double production at its main European plant in Let me respond to the sensible points, if I may say so, Swindon. Those are all important investments in the about the calibre of the company that we are dealing sector. It is important for everyone—both the existing with. Lotus is a world-class design engineering company, sector and potential investors—to understand that the and, as we have heard, a manufacturer of highly desirable UK automotive sector has real strength and depth, and sports cars, supported of course by a dedicated and is backed by a Government who are actively supporting experienced work force. The group, which has more those who seek to invest here in the United Kingdom. than 60 years of history behind it, comprises Lotus Cars, Lotus Engineering and Lotus Racing. As my hon. My hon. Friend briefly mentioned ultra-low-carbon Friend observed, its journey was from humble beginnings. vehicles. As he said, Lotus is a key participant in that I think it was in the late 1940s that Colin Chapman was regard, as it clear from its world-class range-extended first in a lock-up garage developing a trial racing car, electric vehicle technology and its role in the development but that has led all the way to a globally renowned of the important emerging technology of hydrogen fuel company manufacturing high-performance products. cells. The Government are pursuing a programme which seeks to ensure that we have a marketplace in which This is a business that has always been at the cutting those technologies can develop, because we cannot assume edge. It makes an important contribution to the UK that past technologies will be revived. As the new generations automotive sector, not just through the exports of its of ultra-low-carbon vehicles develop, it is important for iconic cars but through the world-class design engineering those who wish to invest to recognise that the expertise to which my hon. Friend referred, which, although and know-how are resident here. particularly relevant to the automotive sector, is—as he said—also relevant throughout the engineering field. Let me turn to the details of the current situation, Lotus is a globally respected business which works with which my hon. Friend mentioned. The takeover by the many of the world’s most prestigious car manufacturers Malaysian company DRB-HICOM of Lotus’s parent, and tier 1 suppliers. Lotus engineers spearhead research Proton, was begun in January, as we heard, and completed in crucial areas such as hybrids, electric vehicles and around the middle of March. DRB-HICOM is one of renewable fuels, which is one of the reasons why many Malaysia’s leading companies; indeed, it is the country’s people understand that the business has a very strong leading automotive manufacturer. Its values, stated clearly future. and openly, include excellence, innovation, quality and teamwork. Since then, DRB-HICOM has been carrying The Government believe that the company’s work out what we understand to be standard due diligence must continue and that it should continue in Norfolk, checks on Lotus and other assets related to its takeover but, as a number of Members have pointed out, it is of Proton. As my hon. Friend mentioned, the Prime important to view Lotus in its wider context. This Minister raised the issue of Group Lotus with the country has one of the most diverse and competitive Malaysian Prime Minister and Proton while he was in automotive sectors in the world. When considering the Malaysia recently. He stressed, as I do today, that the prospects of both individual businesses and the sector Government continue to wish to work with the company. as a whole, we should take account of the key investments that have been made. Some £4 billion has been invested In response to media speculation, DRB-HICOM issued in the last 18 months. That sends the important signal a press statement last Saturday stating that no decision that international investors recognise the calibre of the had been taken on whether to sell Lotus. In the meantime, work force, and also the opportunities that they can DRB-HICOM has also stated that it continues to support gain by basing their firms here. the company, including through management help. I understand that additional funds have been made available The sector is strong and growing. Vehicle production by DRB-HICOM to enable Lotus to resume production has risen by 5% in the last year, and more than 1.4 million while the due diligence continues. That would follow on vehicles have been produced. Engine production has from the £100 million invested in Lotus at Hethel in also increased. I am thinking particularly of the strength recent years. of powertrain in the UK automotive sector: some 2.5 million units have been produced in the last year. One of the encouraging features of the whole sector is Mr Bacon: May I ask my hon. Friend to interrogate that not only is its productivity strong and its work closely the question of how much support is being force capable, but it exports a significant proportion—some provided so that manufacturing can “resume”, as he 80%-—of what it produces. Last year exports were up puts it? My understanding is that DRB-HICOM is by 15%, and they are now at an all-time cash high of drip-feeding small amounts of cash to the business, that just short of £30 billion. Lotus is part of that: last year there is little manufacturing going on and that there it recorded production of 1,458 cars of which 1,189 might not be too much manufacturing going on in were for export, so it clearly has a strong export programme. future unless we are careful. If he could press the Malaysians—indeed, the Government of Malaysia—on Despite a difficult international economic environment that point, so that they put pressure on DRB-HICOM and a contracting European market, global demand for to reach a resolution in the interests of workers in UK-made vehicles has risen, which shows that UK Norfolk, I would be very grateful. 931 Group Lotus24 APRIL 2012 Group Lotus 932

Mr Prisk: I am more than happy, as we continue our clear to Proton and the companies that the Government close contact with the companies, to ensure that those stand ready to reactivate the RGF grant offer—subject questions are tested. My hon. Friend will know that I to the normal due diligence—but only if the vehicle do not generally take no for an answer, and I intend to development programme goes ahead in Norfolk. That ensure that we as a Government have the full facts is an important principle to establish. before us. I thank my hon. Friend for bringing this important My hon. Friend is right that although the statements issue to the attention of the House. I understand that we have heard are important, we also need to recognise this is an unsettling time for the employees, and I trust that this is a rather unsettling time for the work force, that the situation will be clarified shortly. I want to their families and the business community locally. Let make it clear again that the Government wish to see me make it clear to him that we as a Government—all Lotus continuing to build on its rich industrial heritage the Ministers engaged—intend to maintain close contact in Norfolk, and we stand ready to use the regional with all the key stakeholders. That is why the British growth fund if it seeks to do that. In conclusion, Ministers high commissioner in Malaysia recently wrote to Proton, at the highest level are taking the matter very seriously. I following on from the Prime Minister’s meeting. It is can tell my hon. Friends here this evening that we will also why this afternoon the Secretary of State spoke to remain in close contact with the companies and will Mr Dany Bahar, the Lotus chief executive, making it work to ensure that the new owners understand that clear to him that the Government are fully behind Norfolk is the home of Lotus. ensuring that the company and its work force remain an Question put and agreed to. integral part of the Norfolk economy. The Government will seek to make further contacts with the Malaysian 10.34 pm Government, as my hon. Friend requested, because we House adjourned. recognise that we need to be talking at all levels on this important issue. CORRECTION Let me turn briefly to the regional growth fund. My hon. Friend will understand that we have made a conditional offer of financial support for Lotus’s growth plans. Official Report, 23 April 2012, In column 770, That offer has been on hold since the acquisition of Division 531, delete Alexander, rh Mr Douglas from the Proton by DRB-HICOM in January. We have made it Noes.

189WH 24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 190WH

Richard Graham: With great pleasure. I see a spokesman Westminster Hall for Swindon emerging.

Tuesday 24 April 2012 Mr Buckland: I cannot resist an invitation like that. Swindon has a similar demographic to that of Gloucester. We are in a relatively rich part of the world and have [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] historically been underfunded. We are doing our best with the resources that we are given, but the option set out by the F40 campaign—an extra £99 million—would School Funding be a good interim way to deal with an historic problem Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting that Governments of all parties have wrestled. be now adjourned.—(Mr Wiggin.) Richard Graham: My hon. Friend makes a powerful 9.30 am point that relates perhaps to a later stage of the argument that I will develop. I agree with him absolutely that Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): It is a pleasure although, as the saying goes, size—or, in this case, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. There is a money—is not everything, it does go a long way towards very strong representation from the south-west here improving the opportunities for children in our today, including the Chair, and we welcome that. constituencies. As we all know, above all else, the School funding is an issue that has bedevilled the Government are concerned with aspiration and providing country, particularly for those of us who represent equal opportunities for children across the country. underfunded areas. In many ways, the problem of school funding reminds me irresistibly of the late 19th-century David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Would it not question of Schleswig-Holstein, about which Lord be a travesty if areas of social deprivation lose out on Palmerston says: the school funding formula when the Government’s “Only three people…have ever really understood the Schleswig- ethos is to encourage young people into education and Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German perhaps to go on from that to vocational studies? professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it.” Although I would not suggest for a moment that the Richard Graham: The hon. Gentleman is implying Minister responsible for schools and the Secretary of that my argument is to beggar my neighbour, to give State for Education are the only two people who really pupils in Gloucester a better chance. He is right in know about school funding, it is fair to say that I saying that a charge to the lowest common denominator certainly got lost early on in the quagmire of the local to achieve equality is not necessarily what we are looking authority central spend equivalent grant—or LACSEG, for, and that is not what I intend to propose. However, which sounds very similar to some medicine that I once perhaps we will come on to the specifics of that in a took for Barrett’s oesophagus. moment. None the less, the issue is clear to us all. There are Broadly, we have already established a degree of many schools across the country, including all those in consensus in the debate—and I suspect across the House— my constituency, whose pupils effectively lose out that the principle of equal funding for every child in the significantly in terms of the amount of money spent on country is one that we would all happily sign up to. The them per year relative to pupils in the large metropolitan Secretary of State for Education has made it clear that areas. In fact, there are some 2.5 million pupils in the that is his principle as well. Of course, the Government F40 areas, which are the poorest-funded local authorities have, in a sense, made deprivation much easier to deal in England. Therefore, on average, £5,000 less per child with by introducing the pupil premium, which hugely is spent on children’s education in my county of helps those children who come from very deprived Gloucestershire and other counties represented here backgrounds and who therefore deserve additional money today. being spent on them to give them the same opportunities as those children from more stable family backgrounds. Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): Does my We all agree on the principle, but what can be done hon. Friend agree that the problem is exacerbated by about it? Given the length of time that the issue has the rural nature of constituencies in the south-west? been with us—some 20 years or more—and, I regret to Certainly, in Devon, that makes the problem of say, the previous Government’s complete failure to tackle underfunding even more acute. the problem, it falls upon the coalition Government to deal with it. Richard Graham: My hon. Friend makes a very good During the various debates that have already taken point and speaks powerfully for children in rural areas. place in the House since the Government came to Of course, there can also be a problem for those in power, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for urban areas within a rural county. In my case, one of Education has perfectly summarised the issue. He has the reasons why some of us in Gloucester feel so said: passionately about the issue is that we are a relatively “The current system is not only ludicrously bureaucratic, it is poor city and a relatively rich county. I am sure that also unfair as schools in different parts of the country are not other hon. Members have similar situations, and I am funded on a rational basis. Moreover, the sheer complexity of the happy to take interventions from them on that point. system gives schools less incentive to respond to the needs of local parents by expanding or establishing new provision.” Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Will With the exception of not alluding to the Schleswig-Holstein my hon. Friend give way? issue, he could not have put it better, and I do not 191WH School Funding24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 192WH

[Richard Graham] situation considerably. It has put forward four options to make steps towards equality, not all of which are suppose that any hon. Member here today would disagree hugely expensive. It is not for me to ask for a specific with him. How do the Government therefore propose to amount of money or a specific formula for the Government create a fairer system that will enable those authorities to start the ball rolling, but I urge the Government to in which our constituencies lie to be reassured that the look closely at the F40 group’s proposals in the hope Government can right the wrong that has been with us that one of them is attractive and affordable, and, above for more than 20 years? all, can be introduced for the academic year 2014-15—before Of course, I should say that the Government first the funding settlement of the next Government. launched a consultation. At the announcement of the My main wish is for the Minister to take from the consultation, Lord Hill determined that it would address debate the thought that not only are the Government the disparities and inequalities within our school system. able to agree with the principle and the direction of The consultation was the first step towards ensuring travel, but they can make the first steps to implement fair funding. None the less, the Department for Education financial change to show that this long, 20-year inequality has been unable to find the additional money that will finally be tackled. would have provided the top-up to all those areas in the F40 group. That would have provided us with the Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): My hon. Friend simple one-stop solution of equal funding for all pupils has mentioned timing on three occasions. Is that not across the land. In times of extremely constrained finance, one of the crucial points? Given that we have had that it is not surprising—no one in our constituencies could inequality for 20 years and that we have a very strained conceivably blame the Government for this—that the economic environment, it is vital that we resolve this additional significant amount of money needed to solve problem as soon as possible and in the best way possible. the problem in one go has not been found. However, there has been good news in terms of a Richard Graham: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. significant reduction in the factors that local authorities Of course, the difficulty is in the words, “as soon as can consider when constructing school formula. The possible” and “the best way possible”. Neither he nor I number of factors that need to be considered have have control of the finances, but I think we both agree dropped from 37 to 10, which will slightly reduce the strongly that this is our opportunity to lobby the Minister complexity of the education funding formula, to which and for him to reflect the strength of our conviction to I alluded earlier, and make it easier for schools to the Treasury in the hope that additional moneys can be understand the rationale behind their budgets. The found as soon as possible. consultation also arrived at a much greater delegation of funding to schools and will ensure that local authorities Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): This is can no longer top-slice school budgets. Above all, given happening because for more than 20 years civil servants that 75% of the secondary schools in Gloucestershire have recognised that there will be winners and losers. As are now academies, the consultation provided for academies a group, we, and my hon. Friend in particular, must to be funded using exactly the same formula as maintained impress on the Minister that the most important thing schools, because there had been a year’s lag under the is to get on with it now and have no further delay. There system inherited from the previous Government. That have always been winners and losers, and the F40 group single change will make a significant difference to the are the losers every single time. We need to ensure that academies in my constituency of Gloucester and elsewhere. we level things out very quickly, because it has been 20-odd years. Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): It is a bit like watching Martin Luther King in his prime. Is it not right that my Richard Graham: My hon. Friend makes a good hon. Friend has a dream, not only for all schools to be point about winners and losers. Personally, I am not equal, but for the Schools Minister to give us the first trying to advocate taking money away from deprived step, the first indication and the first rung on the ladder areas in large metropolitan cities. They have benefited to an equal and fair funding for all the schools we from generous settlements in the past 20 years, which is represent? absolutely right, but this is not necessarily the moment to rob Paul to pay Peter. I am looking for additional Richard Graham: Yes, apart from an alarming analogy funding from the Treasury to the Department for Education with Martin Luther. [HON.MEMBERS: “King.”] Martin in a formula that allows gradual progress over a period Luther King—even more puzzling. Martin Luther was to resolve this inequality of funding. of course responsible for the great saying, “Who loves The Secretary of State sent a letter to a number of us, not wine, women and song remains a fool his whole life in which he commented on the consultation: long,” but I do not think that that was the object of my “Support for reform was widespread but responses also suggested hon. Friend’s attempt to introduce him into the debate. this model would need careful planning. Getting the components However, my hon. Friend’s fundamental point—that we and implementation of a fair national funding formula right is are looking for an early gesture from the Government critical and we need to manage transition carefully”. to reassure our constituents that they do not just have I think that we all agree with him. We would like him to warm sounds, but an initial step towards resolving the move on as quickly as possible, rather than delaying funding problem—is absolutely right, and one that I until the next Parliament—the issue on which I will think all hon. Members endorse. close my speech. This situation is not of the Secretary of There are budgetary challenges to finding a solution, State’s making. This is a 20-year legacy problem that but the F40 group has submitted various suggestions could and should have been tackled by the previous for interim funding proposals that would improve the Government. God knows, they had long enough to 193WH School Funding24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 194WH consider it carefully. None the less, the issue of fairness is unhappy about that. The leader of Central Bedfordshire echoes powerfully for all of those involved in education council wrote to the Secretary of State on 25 January to in our constituencies, which is why so many of us are express the views of the whole council on this matter. here today to engage with the Minister, who has once again kindly picked up the cudgel. I am sure he will Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): I congratulate respond with his usual positive and encouraging noises, my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard but we are looking for more than just noises. We encourage Graham) on securing this debate. him to take the message back to the Treasury that the If my hon. Friend the Member for South West strength of feeling is strong. Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) would like another example, Leicestershire is the lowest-funded local authority per Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Before I call the next pupil head in the country. One disparity between the speaker, perhaps those who intend to speak will remain county and neighbouring Leicester city—I am sure that standing for a moment. There are six hon. Members, so hon. Members have examples of a city next door to a there is no necessity to impose a formal time limit. county—is that pupils in Leicester get £900 per head Perhaps those who intend to speak can be aware that we more than pupils in Leicestershire. Yet books and teachers’ have approximately an hour before the Front Benchers salaries do not cost any more in the city than in the reply to the debate. I was going to the hon. Member for county.‘ Congleton (Fiona Bruce). Andrew Selous: I thank my hon. Friend for making Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I will make an that point powerfully, because that is my point, too. intervention but not a speech, Mr Gray. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I congratulate my Mr James Gray (in the Chair): That is absolutely fine. hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) on securing this debate. 9.47 am The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Let Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) made about teachers’ me be the first to congratulate my hon. Friend the salaries is vital, because those constitute, as all hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) on a superb Members who have been school governors know, the introduction to this important issue, which has drawn a vast majority of a school’s budget. I am not in favour of large number of hon. Members to the Chamber. It differential salaries throughout the country. We need would have been nice to see a few hon. Members from standard salaries. It is all the more important that Her Majesty’s Opposition, but they seem to be somewhat schools funding should be fair, per head, because those absent. I congratulate my hon. Friend on the sensitive basic costs should be the same throughout the country. way in which he has raised this important issue. We all have a duty to speak up for our constituents. Andrew Selous: I thank my hon. Friend for speaking Central Bedfordshire council is in the unique position with passion and for further illustrating the point, which of having a local authority on one side of it, Luton, all hon. Members are making. which is generally poorer than central Bedfordshire, Some hon. Members have already mentioned that and a local authority on the other side of it, relatively wealthy areas often have significant pockets of Buckinghamshire, which is richer. Both authorities receive deprivation. That is true in my constituency. There is more money per child than central Bedfordshire. I put it deprivation in Houghton Regis, for example. The indices to the Minister that it is very hard, as a Bedfordshire of multiple deprivation in some wards in that town are MP, to explain to my constituents why the authorities not dissimilar to those in much higher-funded Luton on either side, one of which is poorer and one of which next door. The formula fails poorer children in wealthier is richer, receive more money. It makes an eloquent case areas. We need to look at that to see whether the for why the formula has no logic or rationale. formula could drill down and give additional funding for poorer children in slightly wealthier areas. David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I am intrigued by the disparity and lack of clarity in Bedfordshire. Three Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I am sure years ago, Cheshire county split into two unitary that my hon. Friend will agree that the pupil premium authorities—east and west. Cheshire East, which includes has been a great advance for poorer children, but in Macclesfield and Congleton, receives £10 million a year many counties there is quite a low level of unemployment less than Cheshire West. The reason for the disparity is and poorer constituents often do not qualify for free not clear at all, which highlights my hon. Friend’s point. school meals and miss out, and are not being helped by The formula needs clarity and transparency, as well as the differential funding that he rightly condemns. fairness. Andrew Selous: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Andrew Selous: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for adding that important point to the debate. illustrating a problem similar to the one in the bottom This Government made an impressive start on this part of Bedfordshire. That adds to my argument. issue by publishing “School funding reform: next steps Each child in central Bedfordshire receives £4,658, towards a fairer system” a few weeks ago. I am grateful compared with a child in Luton who receives £5,315 to the Minister and his colleagues at the Department and a child in Buckinghamshire who receives £4,814. A for recognising the problem and setting out a route map child in Luton gets £657 more and a child in wealthier for dealing with this issue. Having looked through the Buckinghamshire, our neighbour, gets £156 more. Every document, I understand that it will look to vary funding political party across the spectrum in central Bedfordshire between different areas to try to deal with some of the 195WH School Funding24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 196WH

[Andrew Selous] Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that even a modest increase discrepancies by up to 1.5% variance from the minimum in the budgets of low-funded local education authorities funding guarantee per year. That will apply in both would make a significant difference to the education 2013-14 and 2014-15. That is an important start for that could be offered to children? which we are all grateful. Picking up on a point made by my hon. Friend the It is worth putting on the record that this Government Member for Loughborough, Leicestershire is the lowest- came into office inheriting a complete economic shambles. funded area in the country. Coalville, the most deprived We are still having to borrow £120 billion just to pay for town in Leicestershire, is in my constituency. Even in public expenditure this year and we are honouring our the centre of Coalville there is below average take-up commitments on increasing funding to the NHS and on for free school meals, so we will not benefit from the international development. Notwithstanding that, Ministers pupil premium to the extent that the Government might in the Department have maintained cash budgets for expect. There are a lot of proud people out there and schools, which is no mean achievement. That should go they are reluctant to take up free school meals because a on the record in this debate. Many hon. Members know great stigma is attached to them. that the only way to deal with this issue, and the unfairness that many of us are rightly raising, is to get David Mowat: I agree. Clearly, every hon. Member the economy growing and get real economic growth. In has places in their constituencies that are deeply deprived a time of rising budgets, I believe that by doing so we and lose out in this regard. will be able to make significant progress towards dealing It is said that it is difficult to put in place a national with these inequalities. I should welcome some reassurance formula, but I do not think it is. An exercise to decide from the Minister that that will happen as the economy the inputs to the national formula, indices of deprivation, grows. London weighting and historical issues could take place 9.55 am over a long period. Several things could be done, and I find it difficult to understand why they have not been, David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I congratulate because there is a precedent in a national formula for my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard health funding. The way in which all our primary care Graham) on leading the charge on this matter. I am not trusts are funded is driven by the ACRA formula—called from the south-west and have no real knowledge of after the Advisory Committee on Resource Allocation— Schleswig-Holstein. Warrington is one of the lowest which appears to work reasonably well. A characteristic funded of the F40. Periodically, I visit primary and of the ACRA formula is that it gives different numbers other schools, as we all do, most recently Broomfields in and numbers that one might not want to adjust to Appleton. Over and over, governors take me to one immediately because they are too far up or down in the side, show me spreadsheets and say, “Why does this next year. The Department of Health deals with that school in another part of the country, which has the with what it calls a direction of travel adjustment— same characteristics as our school, have so much extra adjustment to the correct number takes place over a money? Can you explain to me, as our MP, why an number of years. I see no difficulty in the education incoming Government with a Front Bench bristling community doing something similar because, as I said, with talent, energy and reforming zeal, can acknowledge no one is asking for the problem to be fixed quickly. We the problem and understand it has to be fixed, yet does want to know that there is a direction of travel and that not seem to have the appetite to have a go at it?” over the next decade, say, it will be sorted out. Warrington is not a wealthy place. It has wards that Finally, I very much support our policy and what we are among the most deprived in the country. Over the are doing with academies and free schools. For me and weekend I looked at many spreadsheets—I congratulate for people in my constituency on the wrong end of the the Department on the volume of spreadsheets on its formula, however, the funding issue is more potent. It is website—and noticed that there is a 50% discrepancy disappointing that our Front Bench is on the same side between the funding level of Warrington and Westminster, as the teaching unions, which should give Ministers where I live during the week. Is Westminster that much pause for thought. We are asking not for the problem to worse off than Warrington? Are the deprivation indices be fixed now but for a start to be made. that much more difficult? I do not think so. In preparing for this debate I read a lot of papers on 10.1 am websites and various materials that are around. A lot of words have been written about how difficult it all is, but Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): It is good to see none of the analyses attempt to justify the status quo. I such a well subscribed debate under your chairmanship, have seen no serious attempt to say that where we are Mr Gray. I am mindful that Worcestershire’s lowly now is the right place. None of the hon. Members who place near the bottom of the league tables for school will speak or have spoken already are asking for a funding is only one above that of Wiltshire so, although national funding formula to be put in place and as Chair you can make a limited contribution to the implemented immediately. We are asking for a start to content of the debate, it is appropriate for you to be be made. presiding over it. I recognise—perhaps the Minister will address this in I declare an interest as an unpaid member of the his remarks—that it could take 10, 15 or 20 years to fix executive of F40, a cross-party group that campaigns this in its entirety, but that is all the more reason at least on behalf of Wiltshire, Worcestershire and the other to make a start. That is what I find most difficult to authorities that are among the lowest funded in the explain to my constituents. I have a suggestion for the country. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Front-Bench spokesman. for Gloucester (Richard Graham) on securing today’s 197WH School Funding24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 198WH debate. He and I have worked closely together on a limit turbulence, they have so far resisted dealing with number of issues, representing as we do two of England’s disparities between authorities until 2015. There is much finest cathedral and rugby-playing cities. It is always a to praise, therefore, but that last point is a profound pleasure to hear him speak eloquently and wittily for mistake. the interests of his constituents and schools, interests The biggest and most obvious flaws in the current on which Gloucester, Worcester and, it appears, Warrington funding system, as my hon. Friends have pointed out, are fully united. are the yawning gaps left in per pupil funding between I am pleased to speak before a Minister who understands neighbouring authorities. There is a gap of £1,088 such a complex and difficult area of policy extremely between annual per pupil funding in Worcestershire and well. He has a firm grasp of the issues facing our neighbouring Birmingham; my hon. Friend the Member schools and has given a great deal of time to colleagues for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) mentioned the gap and to campaign groups, for which I thank him. He has of almost £900 between Leicester and Leicestershire, previously expressed the clear and unequivocal view the lowest funded authority; and there is the stunning that the current system of school funding is flawed and gap of nearly £5,000 between the lowest and the highest that reform is necessary. Indeed, before I express my authorities. We have often discussed such disparities pleas and concerns, it is important to recognise that before, and I accept that there are many historic and there was much to be warmly welcomed in the Government political reasons for them, but the Minister has accepted announcement of 26 March, “Next steps towards a the point that no firm formula underpins them any fairer system”. The Secretary of State, in his foreword longer. The successive layers of government priorities to the paper, said: that created those gaps have ossified over the years, and “The current system is opaque, inconsistent and unfair with the gaps have grown ever wider as spending has grown, huge differences between areas.” creating an unfair and indeed unjustifiable system. I could not agree more. He promised a new national It is extremely welcome that the Government have funding formula after the next spending review—the recognised the problem, and the previous Government right answer on the wrong timetable in my opinion, but suggested that they were beginning to do so, but it is not nevertheless the right answer. enough to recognise a problem—the challenge is to correct it. When the previous Labour Government opened The Secretary of State also announced moves to a consultation on funding reform but proposed no simplify significantly local funding formulae and to preventive action, I and many others present would create much greater transparency—I welcome the latter have accused them of dithering. Now that my own in particular, because transparency might be the key to coalition Government, whose education reforms I support breaking down the vast disparities and lack of consistency strongly and whose pupil premium I have praised, are in the current system. If Ministers mean school governors proposing no action until after the next spending review, to have more notice of their funding arrangements in I cannot do otherwise with them. To accept the need for future, I strongly welcome such a move, which has been fundamental reform but to postpone any move towards called for by pretty much every school governor I have it is similar to a dentist recognising the cause of a ever met. If, too, we will see the per pupil funding that is toothache making a patient’s life unbearable and then actually received school by school and area by area—rarely offering to deal with it in three years’ time. If such a possible to date—I welcome it all the more. Ministers case came to our surgeries as MPs, we would react with could be providing the decisive weapon to expose once outrage. On behalf of all the teachers, head teachers, and for all the disparities of the system; organisations parents and—above all—pupils in our schools, we must such as F40 will use it to the best of their abilities. demand swifter action now. The question is not about a system that rewards the Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I congratulate my neediest areas and gives least to the best off. If that were hon. Friend on his work co-ordinating Members in the the case, the City of London would hardly be the best F40 group, of which I am one. I highlight again the funded authority in the country, nor Kensington and anomalous funding position of the adjacent large unitary Chelsea in the top 10. Since the introduction of the authorities of Cheshire East and of Cheshire West and pupil premium, many F40 authorities have received a Chester. Cheshire East runs from Poynton near Stockport good chunk of pupil premium funding, despite the in Greater Manchester in the north right down to factors mentioned by my hon. Friends, showing that Audlem, near Shropshire, in the south; within that there are significant levels of deprivation in many F40 range, we have severe pockets of deprivation. Meeting areas. In my own urban constituency, I have wards that with head teachers, I have the sense that not only do are among the most deprived in the entire country. they see the funding as unfair but they feel the injustice. However, the low level of underlying funding, before Is it not right that we address the issue as a matter of the allocation of the pupil premium, means that many justice, and that we do so expeditiously? head teachers in those wards tell me that they need the extra money to break even—to keep their schools afloat— Mr Walker: Absolutely, I could not agree with my and that they cannot spend the money on what it was hon. Friend more. That injustice would be made all the intended for, to improve the chances of the most deprived. more clear if there were greater transparency on school- by-school funding. Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): My hon. Friend There have also been some moves to protect special and neighbour might be interested to hear about my needs funding and to simplify arrangements for early recent discussions with some schools in Wyre Forest. years provision, all of which we welcome. The Government Usually, a school expects to pay somewhere between set out plans to end disparities within local authority 80% and 85% of its budget on staffing. Now, because of areas but, with a perhaps understandable concern to the very low funding formula, we see typical schools in 199WH School Funding24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 200WH

[Mark Garnier] up to the level of Lincolnshire, which is the 41st worst- funded authority, and found that that would cost almost such lower funded areas spending nearer 90% or even £300 million. It considered giving each of the lowest-funded more than 90% of the budget on staffing—an intolerable authorities a small flat cash bonus to help, but found situation for their head teachers to manage. that the difference would be too small, and the process would simply rearrange the league table, pushing some Mr Walker: Absolutely right. My hon. Friend from authorities outside the F40 down the tables. Under its Worcestershire points out that the extra money from preferred option, it has proposed making the shift towards the pupil premium is sometimes needed to support such Lincolnshire levels of funding, but doing so proportionately, costs and it is not necessarily reaching the target at taking each of the lowest 40 one third of the way which it is aimed. towards that level. That modest suggestion has the advantage of giving most help to those who need it We all recognise that it is impossible to correct the most, while not altering the fundamental balance of problem overnight. Ministers have said that their funding. consultation threw up widespread support for reform but also much concern about turbulence. Interestingly, F40 has suggested that Ministers should seek the the teaching unions came out strongly in favour of £99 million cost directly from the Treasury. I think all postponing the issue; in doing so, they might have been hon. Members here would support the Department for representing many of their members, but they were Education in applying for that. However, knowing the certainly failing to represent the interests of those members harsh constraints on public spending that are Labour’s in F40 areas whom we meet day in, day out. unfortunate legacy, will the Minister consider whether any of it can be found from other sources within the The many MPs I have spoken to and the volunteers education budget? The sum of £99 million is less than who make up the F40 executive recognise the need to the set- up costs of the new Education Funding Agency, avoid setting one part of the country against another in and a very small amount relative to the £1.25 billion a scrap for funding. We also recognise that it is incredibly earmarked for the pupil premium next year, or the difficult to change the system radically when spending £2.5 billion that it is set to reach by 2015. It could make is under extreme constraint. We can idly wish that the a major contribution to the work of that vital premium, previous Government had been quicker to act and more ensuring it had its intended effect in the areas that it determined to deliver, but what is done is done; the currently has difficulty reaching. opportunity to correct the glaring inequalities in the system during the days of ready money has now been The sum of £99 million is a tiny amount compared lost forever. In the tough conditions of today, however, with the £36.5 billion paid out under the dedicated the need for fairer funding is all the greater. Worcestershire schools grant to local authorities and schools around school leaders tell me that they understand the need for England. If that £99 million were taken equally from all constraint and, like other public servants, they are those authorities better funded than Lincolnshire, it straining every sinew to deliver more with less, but they would equate to just 0.4% of their DSG funding, and are harder pressed to do so when there is an open and cost no single authority more than £4 million. I hasten acknowledged injustice in how they are funded. In to add that that is not what F40 nor I propose, because Worcestershire, we have schools within a few miles of we prefer no authorities to lose out in the quest for the boundary with Birmingham that must deliver lessons fairer funding, but such a change would be a small step on a budget hundreds of pounds per pupil lower, that towards a fairer system at a cost that would enable them must compete for teachers with a much better funded to stay well within their minimum funding guarantee authority down the road and that are now being asked that no school lose more than 1.5%. At the end of the to accept the same constraints as that neighbouring day, it is up to Ministers to decide the best way of authority, having missed out on many of the benefits of meeting the challenge. We are here today to urge them easier times. It would be neither fair nor reasonable to to do so. make no move in the lifetime of this Government to I shall illustrate how the problem has developed. right such wrongs. During the first year of the Labour Government, when my predecessor in Worcester used his maiden speech to I am grateful that, within days of his March promise fairer funding as a result of the abolition of announcement, the Secretary of State met the Chairman assisted places, the gap between Worcestershire and the of F40 and some of its local authority members to hear national average stood at £230 per pupil, and was £380 their concerns. Neither he nor the Minister would have between us and our neighbours in Birmingham. By the been surprised at the profound disappointment they end of that Labour Government, the gap with the expressed at the decision to postpone until 2015 the national average had risen to £371 per pupil, and with move to a new formula. At that meeting, it was agreed Birmingham it had doubled to £760. that further representations would be accepted from the group on changes that would not hurt the funding of The coalition agreement focused on fairness, but it is other authorities, but would mark a first step, however disappointing to record that under the coalition small, towards greater fairness. F40 has since sent in its Government the unfair gap has widened further. In the suggestions, which I strongly support. current financial year, it stands at £482 per pupil against We have heard about Martin Luther and Martin the national average, and £1,088 against Birmingham, Luther King, and I want to introduce Mark Twain to almost three times the gap in 1997. For too long the the debate. He wrote: system has been working against us. For too long we have faced an ever-widening gap. The Government have “The secret of getting ahead is to get started”. been brave to recognise the flaws in the system, and F40 has suggested some options for getting started. It right to recognise the need for fundamental reform. looked at the cost of bringing the lowest-funded authorities However, as Benjamin Franklin said: 201WH School Funding24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 202WH

“Well done is better than well said.″ that should motivate the present Government to address Today, we are asking for a down payment on reform, the structural deficiencies in the system now, and not a firm signal that the changes that we all agree are continue to the next Parliament with an unjust system needed will be delivered, and a first step towards delivering that jeopardises the future of young people in Redditch. them. The last Government failed completely to deliver I look forward very much to hearing the Minister’s on the issue. The present Government not only can, but response. must deliver. I urge the Minister to respond positively to the urgent representations from F40 to set much-needed 10.16 am change in motion, and to deliver a real improvement to Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): I want to take schools in Worcestershire and across all the areas that the Minister and all hon. Members here in their minds have hitherto been left behind. We must not just talk the to a road in my constituency—Soundwell road. The talk on fairer funding; we must walk the walk. As east side of the road is in King’s Chase ward in South Shakespeare said: “Actionis eloquence”. The Government Gloucestershire council, and is one of the 10% most have displayed great eloquence in dealing with the issue. deprived wards according to the lower layer super output Now is the time for action. area indices. To the west is the city of Bristol, which includes wards in that local authority, such as Clifton 10.14 am and Stoke Bishop, which are in the top 10% of local Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): It is a great pleasure, super output areas. Yet funding for a pupil on one side Mr Gray, to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate of Soundwell road in South Gloucestershire council is my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard £4,487, but for a pupil on the other side of the road it is Graham) on securing this important debate. It is not the £5,469. That differential is £982. As hon. Members have first we have had in Westminster Hall on this matter. We said, the differential is growing. Three years ago it was have had a debate on Worcestershire, and the Minister only £468. is well aware of my views, so I will not speak at length. Who are the Government, and who are we to suggest A good education is the right of every child in this that a pupil in leafy, wealthier areas such as Stoke country. I was educated in the state system, as were both Bishop and Clifton are worth nearly £1,000 more than my children. Every child deserves the best education we pupils in areas such as Cadbury Heath and Kingswood, can provide, and the state should provide it. Imagine my which are within the bottom 5% of lower layer super shock when I moved to Redditch 12 years ago to find output areas? Such areas and indices of multiple deprivation that my children were in a postcode lottery for education have been brought up because they are important. We funding. We had arrived from Wales where funding per are formulating funding on a local authority basis, but head was far more than in Redditch. I have campaigned we now have the data and ability to differentiate between for those 12 years to rectify the situation, and I thought individual pupils in a way that we could not 20 years that when we finally got the Conservative-led coalition ago, or even 10 years ago. We have the tools to go we would see the end of that disgraceful situation. I am beyond even free school meals. As my hon. Friend the disappointed that again the children of Redditch will Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) have to wait at least three years before they get a fair said, although the Government’s proposals for a pupil deal. premium are fantastic, free school meals are an inexact Will the Minister explain directly to all the children, science. teachers and parents in Redditch just why they are There is an issue with our welfare reforms because worth less than those who live 7 miles up the road in many pupils who receive free school meals have parents Birmingham? As my hon. Friend the Member for on benefits. Understandably, that will probably decline Gloucester (Richard Graham) said, funding per child in as our welfare reforms progress. We have the data, and Redditch is £1,000 less than in Birmingham. the ability to ensure, for the first time, that we differentiate Mark Garnier: In neighbouring Wyre Forest I share genuinely deprived areas. We do not want anyone to the same problem as my hon. Friend. Does she accept miss out, and we don’t want an attack on deprived that it is a tribute to the teachers in our constituencies areas. We have the ability to pinpoint deprived areas, of Redditch and Wyre Forest in Worcestershire that even within postcodes. I am sure that, although it may they choose to work in those financially constrained be difficult, the Department can do so, and I encourage conditions when they could take the easy option and it to do so. In places such as the Soundwell road—all move 8 miles up the road to Birmingham where they hon. Members will know of similar roads between local would received 45% more money? They choose to look authorities where there is a differential—we have the after our students and pupils, and we should pay tribute equivalent of an educational Berlin wall. To paraphrase to them for that. Ronald Reagan, I say to the Minister, “Tear down that wall!” Karen Lumley: I certainly pay tribute to those teachers, and I will come to that. I used to be chair of the 10.20 am governors of a first school in Redditch, and if it had Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): I thank received the same funding as Birmingham, it would my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard have had £400,000 more. One of my first jobs then was Graham) for securing this debate. I want to pay tribute to appoint a new head at Vaynor first school. She came to the 35 schools in my constituency, all of which aim from a school in Birmingham, and was shocked at the for the highest standards, not just academically but in funding level. She did not stay long. extra-curricular activities. I thank the staff for everything I know that fairer funding is on the agenda, and I am that they do in keeping those standards high, and grateful for that. I acknowledge that we have inherited ensuring an enriching and fulfilling education for the the worst deficit from the previous Government, but children in my constituency. 203WH School Funding24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 204WH

[Sheryll Murray] my hon. Friend think that that is appropriate for the way in which we might resolve the issue of fair funding Funding in South East Cornwall is a big issue. For for schools? 2012-13, the pupil premium grant was just under £4,700 per pupil, which is half of that allocated to a child in the Guy Opperman: I do, and I will reply with words City of London. We are, therefore, no better off than a from Sun Tzu who, when he talked about the art of war, lot of the other areas about which we have heard today. said, “Know your enemy.” That is interesting given that Cornwall comes 134th out of 151 local authorities, and there is no enemy present today, but does not the in South East Cornwall the guaranteed unit of funding absence of Opposition Members—save for the shadow does not even begin to help the schools in the way that Minister, the hon. Member for Westminster North was intended. The Department for Education states: (Ms Buck), who will no doubt act robustly in defending “As the GUFs are based on previous spending levels, which the 13 years during which we all endured a funding will have reflected previous allocations, differences will roughly gap—speak volumes? reflect the level of educational disadvantage in each area, area costs, and sparsity (i.e. the fact that very small rural primary I will move on from the happy badinage in which I schools are more expensive to run).” and my hon. Friend have been engaged to say that I believe, as many hon. Members have said, that we like other hon. Members, I represent schools in should be spreading the money more equally to assist Northumberland that look enviously at counties and all children in the same way, regardless of where they cities that have a greater degree of funding. To put it live. simply, no change is not an option. As has happened to my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South The pupil premium is a fantastic innovation of which (David Mowat), school governors and head teachers the Government can be proud—at least they are taking have drawn me to one side and whispered surreptitiously steps to try to address the balance. In 2011-12, 10,700 in my ear, “Do you really understand how badly off we pupils in Cornwall’s state-funded schools, including are compared with X, Y or Z?” To be frank, they are academies, qualified for the pupil premium, with total correct in that analysis of the deficiencies in the present funding of just over £5 million. For 2012-13, the provisional funding system, and significant issues need to be addressed. figures are 16,000 pupils—24.6%—and £9.5 million. Many of the schools in South East Cornwall that I We all accept the fair point raised earlier about the have visited say that the pupil premium rules contain an fact that there is a financial deficit and restrictions anomaly, on which several hon. Members have touched. apply, meaning that progress is slow. However, when I The pupil premium is based on the number of people go to areas of social deprivation in my constituency—of who are registered for free school meals, but many which there are a significant number—I see schools that parents are reluctant to claim such assistance for reasons survive only because of head teachers and governors that range from pride—we see a lot of that in rural who go so far beyond the extra mile that I shake my farming communities—to simply being unaware of their head in wonder. entitlement. Surely, information is available to the I remember going to Prudhoe Castle first school Government that would enable them to identify those where the head explained how she bought things out of who are receiving financial assistance and are therefore her own pocket because the budget would not cover entitled to free school meals. Rather than leaving it up many of the basics, including essentials such as pencils. to parents to register, it would make common sense for I was taken round that school by the head girl who said, the pupil premium to be based on figures that are “We really would like the lighting to be improved, already held, and that would ensure that the superb because at times we cannot see the blackboard.” On a schools in my constituency receive the right funding. day when I welcome St Joseph’s school to the House of Will the Minister consider such a move? Commons, it is significant that everybody—quite rightly— has made the strong and eloquent point that we are Mr James Gray (in the Chair): From the extreme gravely indebted, particularly in schools where there is south-west of England to the extreme north-east. less funding, to the unbelievable work and unstinting commitment of our head teachers, governors, teachers 10.23 am and staff who work in those schools. I pay tribute to the Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): It is a great pleasure many members of staff whom I have had the opportunity and privilege to speak in this debate that was so ably to meet, but with more than 40 schools in my constituency secured by my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester I have not been able to meet every one of them thus far. (Richard Graham). We know that this is a debate about I will conclude my remarks because it is important schools because everybody has started quoting famous that we hear from the shadow Minister and the Minister. names. By my account, we have had Shakespeare, Mark However, I echo everything that has been said and Twain, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, and Reagan believe that we should be spending the money more snuck in at the end. I prefer to take the Minister back to equally. I endorse the great support for the pupil premium, the ancient Chinese proverb of Lao Tzu who—as our and eagerly await the Minister indicating how far the eminent Education Minister will know—was the founder first step will be. 10.28 am of Taoism and said that the longest journey begins with a single step. Is not the essence of this debate that we are all seeking that first step? It is not a large step; it could Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): It is a be a short step. pleasure to respond to the debate under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. Member for Gloucester Richard Graham: Since my hon. Friend introduced (Richard Graham) on securing the debate and on the Lao Tzu, he will no doubt also be aware of the more erudite way in which he introduced his argument. When recent Chinese philosopher and statesman Deng Xiaoping’s discussing an issue of local government finance, by law great remark, “Yi bu yi bu”—one step at a time. Does it is necessary to invoke the Schleswig-Holstein question, 205WH School Funding24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 206WH which he wisely did. When looking at education funding Ms Buck: There are several answers to that. As a and the many complex questions about welfare expenditure Member of Parliament for Westminster, I was anxious and the formulae for allocating funding to local authorities, that we should not be drawn too far into our own local it is right to reflect on the complexity and difficulty of experiences. I just point out that the last time I looked, such issues, which the Government are discovering to which was a year ago, my local authority had the their cost. ninth-highest entitlement to free school dinners—the I understand that many hon. Members today made imperfect but accepted measure of deprivation for funding sincere and heartfelt arguments in defence of their own purposes—in the entire country. The school deprivation local communities and about some of the funding is significantly greater than the deprivation of the local discrepancies that occur between local authority areas, authority area as a whole. One of the other difficulties reflecting the differences in local authority funding that we must face is that school populations are not formulae broadly, not just in education, and some of necessarily the same as resident populations. That is the discrepancies that occur between individual schools another area of tension that must be dealt with. I am in their local communities. A common thread seemed to completely at one with those who say that not all the be an argument for additional spending on education. discrepancies can be explained, but some are more That is absolutely fine, but it does not quite fit with easily explicable than others. some of the concern expressed about the record of the Labour Government and the deficit. The fact is that we Richard Graham rose— saw a dramatic increase in investment in education and in schools during those years and we are now seeing a Sheryll Murray rose— squeeze on schools funding within which some of these difficult issues need to be played out. Ms Buck: I will give way first to the introducer of the debate. It is true, as the hon. Member for Gloucester said, that this is a long-standing issue. It goes back far longer Richard Graham: Can the shadow Minister confirm than 20 years. The entire problem of discrepancy that that she, like every other hon. Member who has spoken we are grappling with reflects the fact that the education in the debate, supports the principle that every pupil in funding formula has a historical root. Allocation to the country should receive the same basic funding? schools and to local authorities was based on an incremental change in existing historical patterns. Then there were Ms Buck: The issue is more difficult than that. The changes, many of which were introduced by the Labour core of the debate, which I want to come on to, is this. Government, to make that system more progressive There need to be—the dedicated schools grant was through the various specific grants that were introduced taking us in this direction—some basic building blocks and to achieve particular ends and outcomes in education of education funding. The issue then is that although through those specific grants. The aim was also to begin we do not have unlimited money—we did not have the process—it was begun—to try to deal with some of unlimited money even in the more generously funded the funding discrepancies through such means as the years—we must also recognise that we need to address dedicated schools grant. not just the deprivation element, but things such as Therefore, it would not be fair to say that the Labour special educational needs funding, which is a very difficult Government were not engaged in finding ways of dealing issue as well. It is very difficult to achieve what the hon. with some of the inexplicable and difficult variations in Gentleman wants to achieve without significant additional funding. The then Opposition spokesperson, Baroness funding and without some of the consequences that Buscombe, reflected that fact when the dedicated schools none of the hon. Members who have so far spoken has grant was introduced, saying: been willing to deal with. “We welcome the principal policy behind the regulations, the new ring-fenced dedicated schools grant, the multi-year budgets Sheryll Murray: The hon. Lady mentioned the pupil and the rationalisation of standards grants.”—[Official Report, premium entitlement. Did she mean entitlement or did House of Lords, 16 February 2006; Vol. 678, c. 1340.] she actually mean people who are claiming free school Progress was being made. meals? However, there are tensions in relation to what hon. Ms Buck: I was about to come to the issue of free Members want. All of us wanting to see fairer and more school meals. Of course it is difficult to accommodate, progressive funding need to recognise that there are as an indicator of deprivation, any element that involves tensions between those two objectives. It is sometimes a degree of take-up. All Governments have had to and difficult to be more progressive and invest money in will continue to grapple with that. Some changes in education outcomes that deal with some of the local government allocations in the funding formulae, disadvantages that children have in schools and at the which have factored in the index of multiple deprivation same time have a more equal funding formula that and the take-up of tax credits, have proved to be even flattens some of the discrepancies to allow schools to more difficult, because that variation is even more have similar levels of funding. challenging. Obviously, if we could come up with a deprivation funding formula without dealing with take-up, David Mowat: Three times now the hon. Lady has that would be better. If we could find a way of doing used the word “progressive”. Can she explain to us how that, I could understand why people would want to do it is more progressive that Warrington, which has a so. substantially lower income per head than Westminster, To return to my point, there is a tension between fair has 50% less funding for its schools? That does not seem funding and progressive funding that we have not managed progressive to me. to resolve. There is also a tension between the core 207WH School Funding24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 208WH

[Ms Buck] schools; the average gains and losses could be 10% or more; one in six schools would face budget losses of desire to see all schools and all pupils have a basic 10% or more; there would be huge numbers of winners funding allocation to which a progressive element—a and losers; and, even over a transitional period lasting pupil premium or whatever people want to call it—is a six years, some schools would incur annual cash losses relatively small top-up, and the historical desire for of up to 5%. The Secretary of State has therefore local authorities to have a say and for local democracy started to row back from his enthusiasm for seeing early to be an element in deciding how funding is allocated. movement on finding a response. In another context, the Conservative party would argue that case quite strongly. One reason why it proved to be David Mowat: I am sure the IFS’s list of problems, such a challenge, not just under the Labour Government which the hon. Lady has just read out, is correct, but but before that, was that local authorities were receiving does that not demonstrate the size of the problem that funding for schools but not passing all that funding on must be fixed? The fact those problems will exist if we to schools or were making their own decisions about move to a fair formula demonstrates how much inequity how to share out the grant. Accusations can be levelled there is at the moment. However, will the hon. Lady at all political parties, in different ways, because of what clarify the Opposition’s position on introducing a new was done, but of course some of that is intrinsic to local funding formula? Would they like us to carry on as we democracy. If we take it out of the equation completely, are doing, or would they prefer to see a new formula that throws up other and very difficult questions. developed, albeit over time? We recognise that school funding is extremely complex, that there is a case for further reform and that that Ms Buck: As I thought I made clear in my opening reform is of course far harder to achieve when funding remarks, I completely understand that there are arguments is as tight as it is now. We are seeing the squeeze on about similar schools with similar characteristics receiving school budgets. Even with the pupil premium, funding different grant funding because of an historical pattern. will fall. At the time of the 2010 spending review, the I am merely pointing out that that was difficult to tackle Department for Education said that total funding for when we had a generous funding framework, because of the schools budget would be increased by 0.1% in real the impact on schools and the numbers of winners and terms in each of the following four years. However, losers. If it had been easy to tackle those issues, and subsequent higher projections of economy-wide inflation there had not been large numbers of winners and losers, have changed the real-terms calculation. They indicate, much greater progress would have been made, and some according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, a real-terms of the winners and losers would have been secondary cut over the whole period of about 1% and a small schools in Conservative Members’ constituencies. Now, real-terms increase in only one year. Of course, that is at however, we are in a time of public spending constraint, a time when pupil numbers are expected to increase. so most of the challenges are far greater and could be That gives us an indication of the broader context in far more damaging for schools, including some in the which some of these demands have arisen. constituencies represented by Members here, who have To make the position even more complicated for the made a powerful case, in principle, for having a fairer Government, there is an absolute shambles going on formula. My critique relates to the fact that the Government because the Department for Work and Pensions has are rushing in and saying, “This can all be solved. The failed to work out a system whereby the new universal previous Government made a complete shambles. We’ll credit can accommodate a proper indicator for school be able to oblige you with a solution,” when they dinners. It is struggling to find a way of doing that. cannot, of course, offer one or answer many of the That means that the way of calculating the deprivation questions that have been asked. indicator is moving even further away from what the I want to finish by asking the Minister a few questions. hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) How many winners and losers will there be as a result of is saying should be the case. We are, at the moment, at a the “Next steps”proposals and the Government’s decision complete loss to know how the deprivation factor will to dictate to local areas how they organise their funding? be properly assessed when it comes to future funding. Do the Government propose any modelling or pilots to Both those things—the squeeze on funding and the test their proposals? In the light of what head teachers, inability to calculate a future pupil premium, because of collectively, want, why are the Government restricting the free school meal entitlement shambles—undermine local formulae to 10 centrally chosen criteria? Why will the Government’s case that the problem is so desperate they not allow some flexibility to reflect differences in that an immediate solution must be found. local circumstances? Following the Government’s consultation, the Institute What is the cost of using the Education Funding for Fiscal Studies brought out an absolutely damning Agency to administer the budgets of increasing numbers critique of the Government’s thinking. The report exposes of academies? Can academy chains gather all the funding the rather arrogant belief, which we see in so many and distribute it as they see fit, including holding back other areas of public policy, that the problems can be money for central services? If that is the case, does the sorted now that we have a Conservative Government, Minister propose any restrictions? Is he taking any steps and that the previous Government had, by definition, to monitor salaries in academy chains? Obviously, top got everything wrong. When it looked at the small pay will impact on the money spent on pupils. print, however, it found that things were much more How will the introduction of universal credit affect difficult. the Department’s thinking on free school meals and the The report, which I encourage all Members to look pupil premium? The Department acknowledged it will at, shows that: the Government’s plans would lead to a cause “turbulence”. What exactly did that mean? Is free large funding transfer from secondary schools to primary school funding per pupil per actual pupil or per notional 209WH School Funding24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 210WH pupil? Finally, will the Minister confirm that, as a result pupil less than Birmingham. My hon. Friend the Member of the Government’s botched efforts, there will be no for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) noted that one side of major overhaul of school funding during this Parliament? the Sandwell road in his constituency receives £4,487 per pupil, while the other receives £5,469 per pupil. I 10.44 am have never been compared to Mr Gorbachev, but I accept the challenge to tear down these walls and end The Minister of State, Department for Education these absurd inequities. (Mr Nick Gibb): It is a pleasure to serve under your The Government remain committed to reforming the chairmanship, Mr Gray. Let me begin by congratulating funding system so that it is fair, transparent and reflects my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard the needs of pupils across the country. On 26 March, Graham) on securing a debate on a topic of great the Secretary of State for Education announced our importance to us all; indeed, I met him and other intention to introduce a new national funding formula colleagues on 12 March to discuss it. during the next spending period. I am sympathetic to I understand my hon. Friend’s concerns. Gloucestershire my hon. Friends’ wish to see us move faster and address is ranked 136th out of 151 authorities for funding the system’s inequities much sooner. However, in reforming allocations per pupil. In 2011-12, funding per pupil was a system that is so entrenched, we need to proceed with £4,661, compared with the national average of £5,082. caution, and it is important that we introduce full-scale My hon. Friend’s opening remarks and the whole debate reform at a pace that schools can manage. At a time of reflect concerns across the sector about the school economic uncertainty, stability is crucial. funding system. Our priority must be to ensure that schools are able My hon. Friend is the Martin Luther of school to focus on delivering high educational standards and funding reform; indeed, I found a letter from the F40 are not side-tracked by destabilising shifts to their funding. chair, Councillor Ivan Ould, nailed to the door of the Attempting to introduce any dramatic change to the Department for Education. It listed four options or funding system at a time when we are, by necessity, grievances, and we will respond to it in due course. I addressing the budget deficit could cause problems in should, however, point out that option 3 would cost those schools where there might otherwise be significant £99 million, which is not an insubstantial sum, given the changes in their funding. current financial climate. We will move towards introducing a new funding I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the passion, system, but at a pace that gives us sufficient time to commitment and perseverance he has shown in agree the construct of a new formula and that allows campaigning for a fairer funding system and formula. schools enough time to adjust to changes in their funding He has raised these issues on countless occasions, including arrangements. Since last spring, we have consulted widely when I visited Tredworth junior school, Finlay community on how to create a funding system that is fair and school and Gloucester academy in his constituency last logical and that distributes extra funding towards the July. I also pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend pupils who need it most. The Department for Education the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), who has provided has had a number of conversations with key groups, the leadership and steering for the F40 campaign in including schools, local authorities, unions and academies, Parliament. to consider how we can move towards a fairer funding I wholeheartedly agree with hon. Members that the system. current system for funding schools is in desperate need The announcement made by the Secretary of State of reform. It is based on an assessment of need that for Education on 26 March not only reaffirmed our dates back to at least 2005-06, if not further, so it has commitment to introducing a new national funding not kept pace with changing demographics and the formula during the next spending round, but set out needs of pupils across the country. It is also too complex detailed funding arrangements from next year. The and opaque, so head teachers and governing bodies are funding arrangements from 2013-14 will make the local often unable to understand how their budgets have been funding system simpler and more transparent for schools, calculated. early years provision and high-need pupils. Under the It is not right that schools with very similar circumstances new arrangements, education provision will be funded can receive vastly different funding for no clearly identifiable on a much clearer, more comparable basis than under reason. We have found that funding between similar the current system. Head teachers, parents and governors secondary schools can vary by £1,800 per pupil. As my will be able to see precisely how their budgets have been hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire calculated, and why. (Andrew Selous) said, the neighbouring areas of Luton, The first step—we have heard a lot today about first which is poorer than central Bedfordshire, and steps, in various languages—to simplifying local funding Buckinghamshire, which is richer, receive more funding will be to work on the basis that as many services and as per pupil than central Bedfordshire. My hon. Friend the much funding as possible will be devolved to schools. I Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) made a firmly believe that schools are best placed to decide how similar point, when she said that Leicestershire, which to meet the needs of their pupils and to target funding received the lowest amount in the country, received effectively. £900 less per pupil than the city of Leicester. That seems unfair. Richard Graham: Just to clarify, I think that we all As my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South welcome the announcements made by the Education (David Mowat) said, there is a 50% discrepancy in Secretary on 26 March, which will, as the Minister says, funding between Warrington and Westminster local simplify things considerably; but does the Minister see authorities. My hon. Friend the Member for Redditch that as a first step, which can be improved during this (Karen Lumley) said that Redditch receives £1,000 per Parliament? 211WH School Funding24 APRIL 2012 School Funding 212WH

Mr Gibb: It is certainly a first step, and an important national funding formula by which the money would one that should not be underestimated; but the national get to the local authorities in the first place, which is the funding formula, to which we want to move in the nub of the problem? longer term, will commence in the next spending review, not the present one. Mr Gibb: My hon. Friend raises a good point. Those Our approach of simplifying local administration are the very issues on which we are consulting, in and the local formula and of maximum delegation to moving to a national formula. We must move away schools will give head teachers, principals and governors from the phenomenally complicated formulae that currently much more control over how funding is spent. apply in allocating funds to local authorities. The second step on our journey is to reduce the To ensure that we are better placed to introduce a number of factors that local authorities can use to national funding formula over the coming years, we are distribute funding to schools. At present, they can use also making changes that will substantially improve 37 factors when deciding how to allocate funding—a how local authorities are funded. They will continue to point that the hon. Member for Westminster North be allocated amounts for each pupil through the dedicated (Ms Buck) raised. Each of those 37 factors can be schools grant based on previous funding levels. The interpreted widely and applied in different ways. That difference will be that that grant will be allocated in has resulted in long and complex local formulae, with three notional blocks: for schools, early years and high-needs huge variations across the country. We are reducing the pupils. The notional blocks will not be ring-fenced, so number of factors that local authorities can use from 37 local authorities will continue to have flexibility over to 10. how they spend their money. That approach will benefit The 10 remaining factors are clearly defined and help pupils and schools from all sectors and phases. to ensure that funding is used to support the attainment We will use the October census, rather than the of pupils. They are a basic per-pupil entitlement; a January census as we do now, to calculate budgets for deprivation element; an element for looked-after children; the schools block. Therefore, mainstream maintained low-cost, high-incidence special educational needs; English schools will receive their budgets earlier, giving them as an additional language for the first three years after more time to plan. The separate high-needs block will the pupil enters the system; a lump sum, and we are help to secure a more transparent and sustainable approach consulting on whether to set a maximum cap of between to funding pupils with high needs. Schools and other £100,000 and £150,000; split sites; rates; and private providers will be expected to contribute to the costs of a finance initiative contracts. Also, for the five local authorities pupil with high needs, up to a clearly defined threshold. some but not all of whose schools are within the London Any cost above that threshold will need to be met from fringe area, we will allow some flexibility to reflect the high-needs block. That will ensure that funding for higher salary costs in those areas. No longer will local high-needs pupils is funded in an equivalent way, whatever authorities fund schools based on historic factors that type of institution they attend, and it will improve we consider less important, such as the number of trees, consistency when young people move from one part of or the number of ditches surrounding the property. It is the country to another. The early years block will right that, at a time of austerity, funding should be continue to be funded on the basis of the January focused on supporting pupils to achieve. Each local census, but that funding will be adjusted to reflect authority will be required to publish details of its formula actual numbers by the end of the financial year, to take on a simple, clear and consistent pro-forma. into account the fact that young children join the school To strengthen local decision-making, the third step system at different points in the year. It will ensure that will be to make some changes to the schools forum local authorities have greater certainty about funding arrangements. We will make improvements to their for early years children. composition and operation, so that their business is more transparent and decisions better reflect the views We are aware that we need to reform the administration of education providers. For example, we expect that of the local authority central spend equivalent grant, schools forums should operate similarly to other council which is very dear to the heart of my hon. Friend the committees. Meetings should be held in public and Member for Gloucester, so that there is greater decisions should be publicised. comparability and transparency. We are exploring a new Department for Education grant that would substitute an element of the formula grant that is currently paid Mr Buckland: An issue has arisen in the local authority by the Department for Communities and Local in Swindon, where decisions on the allocation of moneys Government. The new grant would cover relevant central relating to the pupil premium have caused consternation, educational services and be paid on a national basis, per as some schools are entitled to more premium than pupil, to local authorities and academies. That, combined others. I welcome my hon. Friend’s remarks about more with the maximum devolution of funding to schools, transparency in schools forums. would replace the need for LACSEG. Making the local system simpler and more transparent will mean that, Mr Gibb: In 2013, those issues will be made public, so when we come to address the national system, there will if some schools forums are redistributing the pupil be far less complexity for us to untangle. This is the premium in a way that was not intended, it will become start of the process for which my hon. Friend the clear and apparent. Member for Warrington South calls. I am aware of the concerns covered in the opening David Mowat: Are the 10 factors, which the Minister remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for has read out, that are to be used within a local authority Gloucester, including those about small schools, which to achieve a fair allocation potentially the basis for a were also discussed by other hon. Members during the 213WH School Funding 24 APRIL 2012 214WH debate. We have considered the additional needs of Uganda (Human Rights) small rural schools in developing the new funding arrangements. As my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) pointed out, 11 am very small schools are very expensive. We have built Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I am grateful for enough flexibility into the proposed system to allow the opportunity to speak on this issue, which is of great local authorities and schools forums to support successful importance to many people both inside and outside my small schools—for example, through the lump sum that constituency. It is a pleasure to serve under your I referred to earlier. chairmanship, Mr Gray, and I thank hon. Members In the remaining period of the spending review, schools who have taken the time to participate in the debate. are being funded at flat cash per pupil, in addition to Let me set the scene. Picture with me a quiet village which schools receive £600 per pupil eligible for free on the Ugandan plains at night. There are lots of school meals. However, to support our proposed changes shacks, and the peaceful silence is interrupted only by and to protect all schools, including small schools, from the odd bleating of an animal. The children are asleep; significant locally decided fluctuations in their budgets, all is at rest. The silence is suddenly destroyed by the we will continue to operate a minimum funding guarantee noise of trucks, shouts and guns being fired. Families of minus 1.5% per pupil for 2013-14 and 2014-15. are literally dragged out of their homes. Children watch Therefore, in most circumstances, schools across the as their fathers are shot and their mothers are taken. country can be assured that, over the next two years, their budgets will not be reduced by more than 1.5% per A little boy is pulled from his brother to stand in pupil each year. front of a man who points a gun at his head and tells him to shoot his mother. If he does not shoot her, he Our analysis has shown that those measures will and his brother will be shot. He looks into his mother’s protect the majority of small schools. However, we are eyes as she slowly nods her head urging him to do it. He consulting on the issues and listening to all the sector’s pulls the trigger, turns to his captor who says, “You are concerns. Formal decisions on protection for small schools on my side now. You are my comrade in arms. You are a and, indeed, other areas of reform will be announced in soldier in the Lord’s Resistance Army.” All that little the summer. boy knows is that he has killed his own mother. All that he believes is that he is evil and worthless, and all that he hopes for is that he never comes back to this place. Some people say that such events happen only in the movies and that it is not real life, but the fact is it is real life for far too many in Uganda.

Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. It is not only real life for children now, but it has been real life for people in Uganda for 25 years. Some 1.5 million have been forced to flee their homes, 20,000 children have been abducted to become soldiers or sold as sex slaves. They are used as cart horses, force-marched and kept hungry for days. Other children are used as target practice. Babies are slaughtered for cannibalism and villages are abandoned. Again, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on raising this matter and hope that in this debate we can highlight the atrocities right across this country and beyond because action must be taken to stop this.

Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Lady for her words. She is well known in this House for her compassion and interest in many countries across the world where abuse takes place on a regular basis. In my comments, I will probably touch on some of her points. In some areas, what I have outlined is still life and something must be done to change it. Some 20,000 children from Uganda have been kidnapped by the LRA for use as child soldiers and slaves. That is 20,000 childhoods stolen, 20,000 hearts broken, 20,000 children ripped from their mother’s arms and forced, as in my example, into terrible situations, and 20,000 reasons for us, as Members of Parliament, to stand here today and ensure that everything possible is done to make a difference to those lives. The Lord’s Resistance Army, or the Lord’s Resistance Movement, is a so-called militant Christian group. There is certainly nothing Christian about its activities. It 215WH Uganda (Human Rights)24 APRIL 2012 Uganda (Human Rights) 216WH

[Jim Shannon] the pain and stop the spread of disease. Will the Minister tell us what medical help has been given directly to operates in northern Uganda, South Sudan, the Democratic Uganda? Republic of the Congo and the Central African Republic and is accused of widespread human rights violations, David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Does my hon. including murder, abduction, mutilation, sexual slavery Friend agree that while we cannot even begin to understand and forcing children to participate in hostilities—all this travesty or the human pain that exists within the grievous charges. Initially, the LRA was an out-growth country, there has also been a radical growth not only in and a continuation of a larger armed resistance movement murder—pastors have been killed and children have waged by some of the Acholi people against the central been forced to shoot their mothers—but in human Ugandan Government whom they felt marginalised trafficking and we need to do something radical about them at the expense of southern Ugandan ethnic groups. it. As the United Kingdom pays a lot of funding to The group is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself these countries, surely something can be done. to be the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium. Since 1987, Kony is believed to have recruited between Jim Shannon: Yes, human trafficking is a massive 60,000 and 100,000 child soldiers and displaced about issue. My hon. Friend is well known for supporting and 2 million people throughout central Africa. The LRA is championing that issue. Northern Ireland had its first one of the foreign organisations that the United States human trafficking conviction yesterday. Hopefully, that Government has designated as terrorist, and its leadership will be the first of many such convictions in Northern is wanted by the International Criminal Court for war Ireland and across the United Kingdom as well. crimes and crimes against humanity. In the six years since the signing of the cessation of On 23 March, the African Union announced its hostilities agreement, many displaced persons have returned intentions to send 5,000 soldiers to join the hunt for the to their homes and a rehabilitation and redevelopment rebel leader, Joseph Kony, and to neutralise him—its programme is under way. However, standards of living words—while isolating the scattered LRA groups, which are nowhere near what we in the western world would are responsible for 2,600 civilian killings since 2008. deem to be acceptable. I know that it is unfair to draw a This international task force was to include soldiers comparison between the western world and Uganda, from Uganda, South Sudan, the Central African Republic but in fact the conditions in Uganda remain closer to and Democratic Republic of the Congo. Those are shocking than to any semblance of acceptability. If we countries in which Kony’s reign of terror has been felt think of the worst standard of living and then go over a great many years. beyond that, that is what it is like in some places in Uganda. Before that announcement, the hunt for Kony was What is Uganda like now in terms of its Government? primarily carried out by troops from Uganda. The The President of Uganda is Yoweri Kaguta Museveni; I soldiers began their search in South Sudan on 24 March, say that with my Ulster Scots accent. He is both Head and that search will last until Kony is caught. Over the of State and Head of Government. The President appoints weekend, hundreds of people turned out for a rally in a vice-president, who is currently Edward Ssekandi, and Northern Ireland to highlight the atrocities in Uganda a Prime Minister, who is currently Amama Mbabazi, and to call for tough action, ever mindful of the fact and they aid him in governing the country. The Parliament that the African Union’s 5,000-strong army has pledged is formed by the national assembly, which has 332 members, to catch him. of whom 104 are nominated by interest groups, including The Americans have laid their cards on the table and women and the army, so there is some representation are supportive of this hunt. In his response, will the for other groups in the country. The remaining members Minister tell us how we are supporting the capture of are elected for five-year terms in general elections. this evil man and his army? There is also the issue of his Uganda is rated by Transparency International among dynasty. This is a man who is rumoured to have 88 wives the countries that it perceives as being “very corrupt”. and 46 children—he has been a busy man—and his Transparency International has a scale measuring ideals are certain to be carried on. We must do all that corruption ranging from zero, which means “most corrupt”, we can to ensure that there is no succession in this case. to 10, which means “clean”. Uganda has a rating of 2.4, so it is right up there when it comes to human abuse and The ravages of war have left the country literally the violation of rights. dying and in great need of help. The conflict in the north of the country between the Ugandan People’s Under Idi Amin in the 1970s, Christians suffered Defence Force and the LRA has decimated the economy, restrictions and even intense persecution. The current retarded the development of affected areas and led to Ugandan Government does not officially restrict religious hundreds of thousands of gross human rights violations. freedom any longer. However, religious oppression still Those violations have centred on the poor emergency occurs in individual cases. provision for internally displaced persons fleeing their homes to avoid the LRA. It has been estimated that Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I congratulate 2 million Ugandans had to flee their homes. Many the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. Does he ended up in refugee camps, rife with disease and agree that, although the human rights situation in Uganda starvation—almost a case of out of the frying pan and improved after Idi Amin, since Museveni’s so-called into the fire. Disease has spread further through Uganda re-election a few years ago things have got decidedly due to the number of people who are passing through worse? In Uganda, there have been a lot of arrests, these camps. Many are suffering in rural areas. A simple restrictions on the press and abuse of human rights on a shot or course of antibiotics could almost instantly end general scale that is getting worse by the day. 217WH Uganda (Human Rights)24 APRIL 2012 Uganda (Human Rights) 218WH

Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. What support is being given by Britain to deal with I will speak about some of the human rights abuses in cases such as those? Perhaps the Minister, in his response Uganda shortly, but they are at a worse level now than to the debate, can indicate whether Britain has had any they have ever been in the past. Idi Amin was ousted, direct contact with the Ugandan Government, particularly but at the end of the day what took his place was not regarding these types of cases. I understand that we necessarily for the betterment of the Ugandan people, cannot police Uganda, but surely we can guarantee that and the hon. Lady has very clearly said that. any help and support that is given by Britain is going to As I was saying, religious oppression occurs in individual the right people. I know that the needs of Uganda are cases, especially against Christians from a Muslim great and I also know that there are Members in background. Where such Christians are threatened, the Westminster Hall today who have visited the country. I Ugandan state does not always seem able to protect have not visited Uganda itself, but I have visited nearby them effectively prior to an attack or to provide them countries. A good foundation is needed in Uganda and with justice following an attack. I will give three examples the open protection of Christians is required to show to illustrate that point. I know of these examples because that persecution in any form will not be tolerated, that of the Open Doors charity, which is a group that works religious freedom is a protected freedom and that all on behalf of persecuted Christians right across the people should be able to live in peace and practise their world. faith as they strive together to rebuild Uganda. Amnesty International has said: The first example is that of Bishop Umar Mulinde, who was an Islamic teacher before his conversion to “The Uganda government and various public authorities have Christianity. Since then, he has often criticised Islam in recent years resorted to illegitimate restrictions on the exercise of the rights to freedom of expression and peaceful assembly in and has had to rely on police protection while preaching response to some of the critical voices on a number of governance at large Christian gatherings throughout Uganda. Because issues. In particular, journalists, civil society activists, opposition of the threats he received, he and his family had to political leaders and their supporters risk arbitrary arrest, intimidation, relocate within Kampala, the capital city. On 24 December threats and politically-motivated criminal charges for expressing 2011—Christmas eve—he was attacked by Islamic views”. extremists outside his Gospel Life church in Kampala. That echoes the point that the hon. Member for Stourbridge The attackers were able to pour acid down his back and (Margot James) made in her earlier intervention. on to his face, leaving him with severe facial burns. The acid blinded one eye, which doctors had to remove, and Margot James: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving threatened the sight in his other eye. His attackers were way again; he is being very generous in doing so. I able to contact him after the incident to say: wanted to share the experience that I had while visiting “We are happy that the acid has disfigured your face, and also Uganda in 2009 to mark international women’s day. I disappointed because our intention was to kill you.” was appalled to read recently that Amnesty International The second example is also important. It is that of have reported that Ingrid Turinawe has been arrested. Hassan, a former sheikh and a former member of a I met Ingrid on my 2009 visit. She was an officer of the violent Islamic group. In 2007, he started exploring opposition party, the Forum for Democratic Change, Christianity and was warned by his associates not to and a leading women’s campaigner. It is appalling to think that she has been arrested for nothing other than “make such a mistake again—we are ready to help you. If you organising assemblies and trying to exercise her right to continue with this move, then we will destroy you.” protest. He reported the threats to the police in the sub-county of Insanje, in the Wakiso district. In response, his Jim Shannon: I agree with the hon. Lady that it is associates sent other threatening letters. He became a absolutely scandalous that that should happen. We live Christian in June 2011 and received more death threats, in a democratic society where we exercise our democratic which forced him to flee to Kenya. He returned to rights and the people who vote for us do so as well, and Uganda in September 2011 and received further death examples such as that of democratic rights being restricted, threats. He reported those threats to the police in Chengera, blatantly wrong imprisonment and so on, are issues that who told him that they would investigate. However, in I wholeheartedly want to highlight today, and hopefully October 2011 he heard of a plan to kill him and he our Government can get some response from the Ugandan again fled Uganda. He is now in hiding in Kenya again, authorities about such cases. and his movements are severely restricted following yet Amnesty International has also said: more threats to kill him. “The measures taken by the authorities violate Uganda’s The third example is that of a 13-year-old girl from international and domestic human rights obligations”— the Kasese district. She was placed under house arrest I share that view and the hon. Lady has also made that for converting to Christianity. Her father threatened to point— slaughter her publicly with a knife for converting, before locking her up instead. For six months, he kept her in a “and have culminated in widespread official intolerance of criticism of some of the government’s policies and practices and a crackdown room with no sunlight. She survived only on the food on political dissent.” and water that her little brother managed to smuggle to her under the door. When she was rescued, she weighed We cannot accept that, we cannot let it happen and we less than 44 lb and had many medical complications. In have to highlight it today. fairness, the local police acted quickly when they were A recent report by Amnesty International also highlights made aware of the case and arrested her father. However, its concerns about official repression of the rights to they released him without charge soon afterwards. Again, freedom of expression and peaceful assembly, as well as where is the law of the land in Uganda when people, the failure to hold to account the perpetrators of human such as that young girl, need it most? rights violations committed against political activists, 219WH Uganda (Human Rights)24 APRIL 2012 Uganda (Human Rights) 220WH

[Jim Shannon] some of it being siphoned off at different places. That happens in many countries, where people whose activities journalists and civil society activists. Those perpetrators are criminal siphon off some of the aid that we send are not being held to account and they should be. The through. The Government have led the way in championing report focuses on the general clampdown on the right to financial assistance and aid to other countries. I welcome freedom of expression, in particular press freedom, and support that, as I think everyone in the House does. between 2007 and 2011, and on the official intolerance Although I consider the needs of my community and of peaceful public protests regarding rising costs of work together with others to see that those needs are living in April and May 2011. The official response to met, I also understand from history that when we stand those protests involved the widespread use of excessive back and wash our hands of events, as Chamberlain did force, including lethal force on many occasions, to quell in the second world war, it does not mean peace and it protests. It also involved the arrest, the ill-treatment and certainly does not absent someone from evil or wrongdoing. the levelling of criminal charges against opposition We cannot live untouched by the suffering of those leaders and their supporters; the imposition of restrictions around us, and today is an opportunity to highlight the on the media; and attempts to block public use of social suffering of those in Uganda. I recently had the opportunity networking internet sites. to visit Kenya with the armed forces parliamentary A proposal by the President in May 2011 to amend scheme. I was somewhat shocked to see what I had only the Ugandan constitution to remove the right to bail for ever seen depicted in films: absolute poverty. The standard persons arrested for involvement in demonstrations and of living there is something that, in our worst dreams or other vaguely defined “crimes” points to increasing figurations, we will never completely grasp. repression of the rights to freedom of expression and When I read about the atrocities, I understood that peaceful assembly. That proposal also illustrates that there was something that this Government and this what we have today in Uganda is a repressive system of people could do. Some might ask why we bother. Why Government that is taking away the basic rights of do we have such debates in Westminster Hall or highlight Ugandan citizens. Of course, Ugandan officials deny such issues in the main Chamber? It is quite simple: evil that there are undue restrictions on the rights to freedom triumphs when good people do nothing. That terminology of expression and of peaceful assembly, and they contend is often used, but it is true. I have always loved history that various Government actions are justified. However, and there is a poem that I want to read out because international human rights law places clear limits on everyone here will be familiar with it right away. What it the restrictions that may be imposed on the exercise of refers to certainly will not be said about me, about many those rights. A number of proposed laws in Uganda others in this Chamber or about this great House—this contain provisions that, if enacted, would result in mother of Parliaments—that we have the privilege to impermissible restrictions on the exercise of those rights, serve in. I also hope it will not be said about this great which I believe would breach Uganda’s obligations nation, of which I am a member. The poem refers to under international law. So, Uganda is stepping outside Nazi Germany in the second world war. It states: the rules and regulations of international law. Perhaps “ First they came for the communists, the Minister can give us some idea of how this Government—our Government and my Government—are and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist. working to ensure that we address these issues. Then they came for the trade unionists,”— Some cynics will say that we have enough difficulties they are being persecuted in Uganda— in our own nation without borrowing trouble from “and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist. others. I have even heard some people say that we Then they came for the Jews, should not give other countries financial aid when we and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew. are reducing the deficit, and that we should not become embroiled in political situations. I say clearly that we Then they came for me have to help other countries. This Government have led and there was no one left to speak out for me.” the way and have increased their portion of financial I do not believe for one second that the same circumstances aid. I say well done to them for what they are doing. that have happened in Uganda will happen to me, but Christian Aid is one of the organisations that has will there come a time when we need help and support lobbied us all. I fully and totally support the Government. as a nation? Almost certainly. We all need each other. We can only hope that if and when such a time arises David Simpson: On the point about aid, I agree with there are those who will speak for us. This House is the my hon. Friend: this United Kingdom has led the way spokesperson today for those in Uganda who are suffering in helping countries that are deprived in many ways. tremendous persecution. Does he agree that there needs to be some way of A constituent recently sent me a letter, which touched controlling the aid? The LRA is moving into villages me greatly, regarding the plight of those in Uganda. and removing food, clothes and water. People are being The letter was comprehensive, detailed and clear about left to die from starvation and thirst. There needs to be what was required of me, and of all MPs. At the end of some way of putting pressure on the Ugandan Government the letter was something that gave me pause: to control the aid and make sure it gets to those who “Mr Shannon, I am not a charity worker, I am not a political need it. activist, I’m a sixteen year old politics students who would like to politely ask you to forward my concerns”. Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for that valuable Some people will say that a 16-year-old is a child, but he contribution. Indeed, the questions we ask in the Chamber is a young man who wants to do what he can to see often address how to get aid, food and resources to the change, and wants his MP to do likewise. We cannot do people who need it most, and how to do that without any less today. 221WH Uganda (Human Rights)24 APRIL 2012 Uganda (Human Rights) 222WH

In conclusion, we must speak out for those in Uganda of the Museveni Government. Ever since his so-called who cannot speak for themselves. We must support our re-election in May 2011, there has been a wave of words with deeds. We must ensure that we help the opposition demonstrations, many of which have ended people of Uganda in a practical and, I have to say, up in violence. Opposition politicians, their supporters prayerful way. I pray for them every day. The Department and journalists all too often face harassment, beatings has received many queries from MPs and Lords who are and arrest. seeking to ensure that adequate action and help is The leader of Uganda’s main opposition party, the effected. I seek assurance from the Minister that we will Forum for Democratic Change, Dr Kizza Besigye—a not wash our hands, but get them dirty and do our bit reasonable man whom I have met on a number of for Ugandans who are being oppressed: the 20,000 occasions—was recently attacked at an FDC rally, where young children; the 2 million people who have been police and military personnel surrounded him and cut displaced; the hundreds of thousands who have been him off from his supporters. They crushed his car conscripted into the army; the Christians, with their screen and prevented him from leaving the scene. civil and religious rights, who are being persecuted by militant Muslims; members of civil rights organisations; Ever since the advent of the first multi-party elections members of unions in opposition and in government; in 2006, the Museveni Government have done whatever and women in government, whose rights have been they can to prevent any opposition from playing on a violated. We can make a difference and we are dedicated level playing field. Before those elections, Dr Besigye to their plight. was arrested on trumped up charges of treason and rape in an effort to prevent him from standing. On the occasions that I have met him, he has had to get special 11.27 pm permission to leave the country, because he is still Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): It is subject to those trumped up charges. a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, particularly In another, more recent, incident, which I discussed as you are my parliamentary neighbour, Mr Gray. I with the Minister for Africa, the Under-Secretary of congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Shannon) on securing the debate and on the sincere way Friend the Member for North West Norfolk in which he put his case. He is gaining a great reputation (Mr Bellingham), Dr Besigye was leading a small in the House for the way that he handles things. He is demonstration by Activists for Change—the so-called entirely right to raise the issue of the Lord’s Resistance A4C—outside a Government building, when a rock Army. My understanding is that, through military activity, thrown from within that building hit a plain-clothes the LRA has largely been driven out of north-east policeman, who subsequently, and unfortunately, died. Uganda, which is more peaceful today than it has been The Minister for Africa told me these facts, so I know for many years. them to be correct. It seems reasonably clear that this As the hon. Gentleman said, Mr Kony, the leader of was nothing whatsoever to do with Dr Besigye or any of the LRA, is indicted for war crimes and is still perpetrating his followers, yet scores of people were arrested, along atrocities in the countries in which he operates—South with Dr Besigye, who was subsequently charged with Sudan, the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the unlawful assembly and placed under house arrest for a Central African Republic. The United Nations has time. operations in those countries, particularly in the DRC, The Ugandan Government declared on 4 April 2012 but it does not have the resources to go after Mr Kony that A4C was an “unlawful society”, ahead of a planned properly, and he is committing some of the worst human demonstration on 5 April. The Ugandan Attorney-General, rights atrocities in the world. I hope that the UK will Peter Nyombi, also declared that, should members of devote more attention to the matter. A4C attempt to form a new group, that would also be banned—something that transpired after the members Fiona Bruce: Would it be right to say that we should of A4C formed the new group called “For God and My not only devote more attention to the matter, but work Country”. The same Attorney-General said: in partnership with other nations who want to see it “If the old pressure group members are the same office bearers, resolved? That is how we can be most effective. the group remains illegal.” Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: Absolutely. My hon. Friend Police and security forces continue to harass and is entirely right. We do not have the resources to send disturb events and rallies organised by opposition troops in directly, but through the UN, we can help to supporters. At a recent meeting of the International bolster operations, perhaps in the DRC, so that we can Democrat Union’s Africa branch in Kampala, delegates— put greater efforts into trying to capture a man who is, I international delegates coming into Uganda—were harassed repeat, an indicted war criminal. He is highly mobile by the police force, which forced the Fairway hotel to and never sleeps in the same place, so capturing him cancel the IDU’s booking and attempted to force the requires considerable resources, particularly helicopters, Grand Imperial hotel to deny the IDU space. so that our troops can keep ahead of the game and Last week, several people, including a 12-year-old catch up with him. girl, were injured and shops closed in a one-hour battle As the hon. Member for Strangford said, in recent between police and supporters of Dr Besigye, as the weeks and months, we have seen a rapid descent and police attempted to stop him from accessing the Nakasero some of the most appalling abuses of human rights market simply to have his lunch. under the regime of the Ugandan President, Yoweri Only yesterday, several women were arrested as they Museveni. The police and security forces now regularly protested at the brutal manner in which the opposition use lethal force, especially during political demonstrations, FDC Women’s League leader, Ingrid Turinawe, was and I should like to address the crackdown on opponents arrested last Friday. My hon. Friend the Member for 223WH Uganda (Human Rights)24 APRIL 2012 Uganda (Human Rights) 224WH

[Geoffrey Clifton-Brown] of human rights taking place, however, are simply unacceptable. The Minister with responsibility for African Stourbridge (Margot James) has already mentioned affairs is fully aware of events on the ground in Uganda—he that incident, but it bears repetition. Ms Turinawe was visited the country recently, when he met with President assaulted on Friday as the police blocked a rally called Museveni and Dr Besigye—so I hope that he takes note by the opposition in Nansana, outside Kampala. Ugandan of what has been said today. television footage clearly shows that, as several officers Through the African Union and the Commonwealth, tried to pull her out of her vehicle, she was sexually pressure must be applied to the Ugandan Government assaulted and she is heard shouting out in pain. This is to uphold their responsibilities to their people. As a all part of a downward trend in the ability of political country, Uganda has huge potential. It must, however, opposition in Uganda to fulfil its basic rights and to take action to rectify the seriously deteriorating human protest peacefully. rights situation that has developed and that has accelerated Worryingly, a proposed Public Order Management since the recent election. I am always hesitant about Bill, which is before the Ugandan Parliament, could criticising people who cannot answer for themselves, further limit freedom of expression for demonstrators, but my perception is that in the past Ministers and if passed in its current form. Under the Bill, public Foreign Office representatives on the ground in Kampala meetings will be prohibited in certain circumstances. It have been far too timid in their meetings with President will prohibit public meetings that are aimed at discussing Museveni in protesting about human rights abuses and, Government policies and affairs of management. For in particular, the right of the opposition to carry out journalists, the Bill will limit their role of seeking, their normal democratic functions. I sincerely hope that receiving and imparting information, which is a vital I am wrong, and I very much hope that the Minister will aspect of freedom of expression and democracy.Journalists, be able to reassure me that that is not the case. along with political demonstrators, are also increasingly I urge the UK Government to continue to support coming under attack by police and security forces. the rights and freedoms of all Ugandans and their The Human Rights Network for Journalists-Uganda efforts to persuade the Ugandan authorities to respect documented 107 cases of attacks on journalists in 2011, people’s constitutionally guaranteed right to the peaceful compared to 58 in 2010 and 38 in 2009. That demonstrates exercise of the freedoms of speech and of assembly that a worrying trend. we expect in any civilised, modern, democratic state. Furthermore, the UK Government must encourage the Margot James: My hon. Friend mentions a number Ugandan Government to ensure that the actions of the of repressive measures currently before the Parliament police and the security forces should be proportionate of Uganda. Is he aware of another Bill, which is being to the events that actually take place on the ground. introduced in this session, that seeks to institutionalise further discrimination against the gay and lesbian minority 11.38 am and reintroduce the proposals current 18 months ago to implement the death penalty for having same-sex Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): It is a relationships? Is he as appalled as I am about that? pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray, Does he call on the Government to review aid strategy and to follow the hon. Member for The Cotswolds in the light of all the human rights abuses that we are (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) in the debate. I was in Uganda hearing about this morning? for the 2010 elections, and to see the deterioration in the atmosphere in Uganda and the violent acts taking place Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend does the at the moment was horrific. House a service in bringing attention to such matters. I congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim When the highly discriminatory measures that she Shannon) on securing today’s debate. His speech touched mentions—I totally deplore them—came before the on the effect of “Kony 2012”, which was astonishing, previous Ugandan Parliament, they were subject to a mobilising people throughout the world. While there lot of international criticism. If they are to be persisted has been some criticism of the film, the intention was with, which it seems that they are, I hope that Britain clearly to simplify the issue and to communicate it to will join further international protests to try to prevent the masses, which it certainly did. Young people took to them from happening. The proposals are highly the streets in cities throughout the world during the discriminatory. weekend to show solidarity with the victims of the Journalists in Uganda have been subject to shootings, Lord’s Resistance Army in the great lakes region. attacks, arrest and detention. They have been prevented Although the LRA has now been driven from Uganda, from accessing news scenes and their equipment has it is still active in the regions. Tragically, as the hon. been taken away. Such actions are in violation of Gentleman stated, tens of thousands of people in Uganda international human rights law and must be deplored. are still suffering from the aftermath of Joseph Kony’s The UK has a particular responsibility in respect of terror spree. Families are displaced from their homes Uganda and a deep-seated interest in the events taking and villages. Men, women and children are living with place. As a member of the Commonwealth, we have a the shame of being raped under Kony’s command, long and shared history with that country. Through the while others have to cope every day with the disabilities Department for International Development, we will forced on them after being mutilated by the LRA. spend an average of £98 million per year in Uganda Joseph Kony remains a wanted and indicted war criminal, until 2015. and I hope that the attention that has shone on him As the country has many natural resources—in particular, through the campaign will lead ultimately to his capture. emerging finds of oil— Uganda has transformed from a Let me take this opportunity to congratulate the failed state to a fast-growing economy. The abuses many non-governmental organisations that are working 225WH Uganda (Human Rights)24 APRIL 2012 Uganda (Human Rights) 226WH in the area to rehabilitate former child soldiers who homosexuals and educating them about the risk of HIV were captured by the LRA. Voluntary Service Overseas and how to protect themselves is seen as a public health is working with young people in north Uganda to matter and beyond that legislation. What works is to empower them with skills to develop their own businesses. respect human rights, including the human rights of One of those young people is Betty, and a synopsis of men who have sex with men, to enable to them to get her story will provide a good example of the tens of access to HIV prevention and education services. thousands of children that VSO is helping. One of the most challenging aspects of the issue is Betty was abducted aged just 15 and immediately that myths surrounding homosexuals and their activities married to an older man who was a lieutenant in the are propagated by outsiders in Uganda. They have LRA. She was forced to kill people with an axe. She helped to perpetuate myths associating homosexuality once tried to escape with a group of other women, but with paedophilia, and politicised an issue that had when they were caught, she was beaten with 100 strokes previously remained underground for many years. When and still has health complications as a result of that I was in Uganda, I saw publications such as Rolling attack. When she did finally escape, she discovered that Stone, which was allowed to out homosexual men in she was HIV positive and had to return to her village Kampala, leading to horrific violent attacks against with two children as a result of her marriage. She said them. However, outsiders can make a positive difference, that she felt stigmatised and was no longer accepted in too, and I welcome the strong line that the UK Government her village, and she was left on her own to look after her have so far taken with countries that impose harsher children. With the support of VSO, Betty and other penalties for men who have sex with men. International women and children like her have been able to set up pressure played a huge role in the withdrawal of the their own businesses. Betty now has her own bakery in anti-homosexuality Bill in Uganda last year, and I hope Gulu in northern Uganda. Help is getting to the area, that that will continue. but I ask the Government to do what they can to The issue is a difficult and controversial one to raise. support such ventures and help the rehabilitation of Talking so openly about sex and relationships can be victims of that war. difficult in our own culture and society, never mind in I wish to touch on another subject that has been Uganda, but it is imperative that we frame the concerns briefly mentioned today and concerns human rights, in the context of human rights abuses, rather than which is the situation of homosexuals in Uganda and solely talking about gay rights. The things that have the abuse and vilification of that community. Last year, happened are human rights abuses. As I have said, I am shortly after I returned from Uganda, the first man to privileged enough to have visited the beautiful country live openly as a homosexual in Uganda paid the ultimate of Uganda several times, and it is close to my heart. price—his life—for standing up for the courage of his Like many countries, Uganda has a huge diversity of convictions. His name was David Kato, and he was the cultures, peoples, attitudes and beliefs. We cannot assume executive director of Sexual Minorities Uganda. His that the intolerance and hatred that are propagated in brutal murder in his own home shocked people throughout some sections of the press are reflected in the whole of the world, including many Members present in the society in Uganda. As Frank Mugisha has said: Chamber today. “Still, I continue to hope. There are encouraging times when my fellow activists and I meet people face to face and they realise As chair of the all-party group on HIV and AIDS, I we aren’t the child-molesting monsters depicted in the media. have been privileged to work with David’s successor, They realise we are human, we are Ugandan, just like them.” Frank Mugisha, who I am pleased to say was recently The right to marry is far from the minds of homosexuals awarded the Robert F. Kennedy human rights award. in Uganda. All they are asking for at the moment is the He is respected in the United States and in this country freedom to live their lives without fear and for his work in Uganda, and he is currently risking his discrimination—or possibly, even, the freedom to live at life to lead the fight against the anti-homosexuality Bill all. The message that I have from activists for homosexual that is going through the Ugandan Parliament at the rights in Uganda is that they do not want our country moment. As we know, that Bill could introduce the to withdraw aid from theirs. As they told me, they need death penalty for homosexuals in Uganda. Not only to eat, too, and they need health care, too. What they would that be a retrograde step for human rights, but it want is for us to use our influence and discuss human could be severely damaging for public health in Uganda, rights for everyone in Uganda, as we are doing today. I given the HIV epidemic that still has hold of the country. hope that the Government will continue to use their Criminalising a section of the population that is influence in Uganda to stress that message at the highest highly at risk of contracting HIV and denying people level. access to basic services, health care and education about the epidemic undermines individual human rights and 11.48 am could pose a devastating threat to public health in a Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It is a pleasure, country where more than 1 million people have been as ever, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. diagnosed as HIV-positive. Such a situation would be I, too, had the pleasure of visiting Uganda—first in further undermined by the Bill on HIV and AIDS 2006, with Oxfam, and then again in 2007, when I was control and prevention that threatens not only the one of the guinea pigs for the Voluntary Service Overseas confidentiality of clients, but efforts to prevent the parliamentary scheme, in which MPs are sent to work spread of the disease. on short-term placements in the summer. I spent a few To make progress against the HIV epidemic we must weeks at VSO head office in Kampala, and I agree with encourage Uganda to take a pragmatic, public-health my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts orientated approach, much like the one I saw when (Pamela Nash) that it is a beautiful country, with very visiting Kenya, Uganda’s neighbour. There, even though friendly people. I very much enjoyed my visits there, homosexuality remains an offence, reaching out to although on my first one, with Oxfam, I was taken up to 227WH Uganda (Human Rights)24 APRIL 2012 Uganda (Human Rights) 228WH

[Kerry McCarthy] Kony could be going underground? In other words, he could hide for a certain period of time when there are Kitgum, to the camps for internally displaced people 5,000 soldiers trying to find him and, at some time in who had been driven from their villages by the Lord’s the future if he is not caught, he could come out of the Resistance Army. woodwork again and resume his violent activities and It was my first visit to sub-Saharan Africa, and it was brutalisation of the people. certainly one of the most tragic sights I had seen—people living in huge camps. I think at that time about 1.8 million Kerry McCarthy: I do, indeed. I remember when I people had been displaced from their villages. They was in Uganda that Kony’s deputy, Vincent—his surname were in their mud huts, surviving on one meal a day. I escapes me—was phoning in on Bush radio and taking always remember the sight of a young boy, who was part in talk shows. It seemed rather strange that although probably about 11 or 12, and who was wearing technically they were in hiding, in some ways they were a three-piece suit that had obviously been donated to a quite visible. Yet, no one had managed to track them charity in a place such as the UK. It was 10 sizes too big down and arrest them. We know that the LRA has been for him, the trousers were all rucked up, and he had a seen in the DRC and in South Sudan, and there is a real little waistcoat. He was wearing it in the baking sun, but fear that it could be regrouping or that atrocities are was obviously proud of his suit. being carried out in those areas, too. When I was there, there was talk of the peace talks The UN has also expressed concerns about acts carried beginning to make some progress. There were talks in out by the Uganda People’s Defence Force. There have Juba. However, it was several years later before people been allegations of rape, torture and use of lethal force, who had spent nearly two decades in the camps were especially during political demonstrations. Opposition able to return to their villages. It is important that the politicians, their supporters and some journalists have Kony 2012 campaign has drawn attention to the atrocities faced harassment, beatings, and arrest. The hon. Member that have been perpetuated by the LRA, but it is somewhat for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) listed in ironic that it has come to international attention—and some detail the pressure that Opposition politicians that so many celebrities have become aware of it and are have been put under. The hon. Member for Stourbridge drawing it to greater public attention—at a time when (Margot James) mentioned—I think she was talking the LRA is no longer operational in Uganda and people about the same incident—that, in January 2011, the have been able to return to their villages. police arrested 35 female activists from the inter-party It is clear that the LRA has no popular support in co-operation coalition, who were protesting against the Uganda and no clear political agenda. As the hon. Electoral Commission of Uganda and accusing it of Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) said, virtually partiality. all Christians would be absolutely appalled at Joseph Kony’s claim to be inspired by the ten commandments There have also been reports—for example, by the and that he is acting through some sort of Christian UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination imperative. The UK leads on the LRA at the UN Against Women—that violence against women and girls Security Council, and Lord Howell said recently in the in Uganda remains widespread. There is an inordinately other place that high prevalence of sexual offences and although it is promising to note that Uganda has ratified the protocol “the UK Government remains very actively involved. We continue to work with international partners to disband the LRA and to to the African charter on the rights of women in Africa, bring to justice Joseph Kony and the other LRA leaders who have much more needs to be done. been indicted by the International Criminal Court.”—[Official On press freedom, which was mentioned by the hon. Report, House of Lords, 26 March 2012; Vol. 736, c.GC199.] Member for The Cotswolds, last year, Uganda dropped I am not quite sure what that entails. I appreciate that 43 places to 139th position out of 170 countries in the the Minister may be in difficulties and that if operations world assessed by Reporters Without Borders. Human are under way, he would not want to reveal them to us. Rights Network for Journalists-Uganda documented However, it is not clear to me whether there are active 107 cases of attacks on journalists in 2011, up from 58 attempts to track down Kony and bring him to justice, in 2010 and 38 in 2009. Those incidents include shootings, or whether it is a question of containment and of trying physical attacks, unlawful arrest and detention, to prevent him inflicting more atrocities. incarceration, denying the media access to news scenes, One thing that struck me when I was in Uganda is confiscation of equipment, defective and trumped-up that the Acholi people have a concept of reconciliation charges and verbal threats. According to Amnesty that involves a ceremony. I cannot remember the details, International, at the end of 2011 up to 30 Ugandan but it is something to do with drinking something from journalists were facing criminal charges for activities a tree. When I spoke to people there, they were very that were a legitimate exercise of their right to freedom keen to implement that and forgive people who had of expression. been abducted by the LRA and had committed atrocities, [KATY CLARK in the Chair] even if it came down to killing or raping people of their own tribe. That is their culture of forgiveness and they Since the general elections in February 2011, a blanket wanted those people back in their villages. Surely that ban has been in place against all forms of public assembly. process should not extend to the likes of Joseph Kony I understand that President Museveni has been pressing and the leaders of the LRA. It is incredibly important Parliament to approve constitutional amendments that that he is brought to justice. would curtail bail rights for people facing certain charges, including participation in protests. The proposed Jim Shannon: Does the hon. Lady share the concern constitutional law would allow judges to deny bail for at of many people—including myself and many in this least six months to people arrested for treason, terrorism, House and outside it—who are fearful that Joseph rape, economic sabotage and rioting. 229WH Uganda (Human Rights)24 APRIL 2012 Uganda (Human Rights) 230WH

It is the case that 56% of Uganda’s prisoners—more me. They said, “Whenever we see anyone from your than 17,000 people—have not been convicted of a crime country, all they want to talk about is our anti- and are locked up awaiting resolution of their case, homosexuality Bill.” It was disturbing that only one of sometimes for years. According to Human Rights Watch, the group was opposed to the Bill. All the others were conditions in the prisons are appalling. Limited use of supportive in varying degrees, and presented the old bail and inadequate legal representation contribute to idea of predatory homosexuals preying on children as a the delays. child protection issue. They said that they did not care In the time left to me, I want to return to the subject what people got up to in private, and that promotion raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and was the real problem, but when I pressed them and Shotts—the anti-homosexuality laws. I am quite surprised: asked why they were not just banning promotion, and when this debate on human rights in Uganda was first why they were trying to impose life imprisonment—quite called, I thought that the issue of lesbian, gay, bisexual a few supported the death penalty—for consensual acts, and transgender rights would be at the top of the they could not answer. That shows that there is still a agenda, because it has achieved much coverage lately. I long way to go. hope that when the hon. Member for Strangford quotes, Although the conversation was polite, it put us in a “When they came for the communists”, “When they slightly difficult position. As one MP said, we took came for the trade unionists” and “When they came for religion to them, and encouraged them to believe in the Jews”, he also includes in that list “When they came certain things. We had a debate about whether it was a for the homosexuals”. human rights issue, or a matter of religious belief, and When I visited Uganda in 2007, the issue had just whether that outweighs other people’s human rights. As begun to raise its head. That was because LGBT activists they said, we told them that homosexuality was wrong had started campaigning for their rights to be recognised. when proselytising Christianity, but we are now saying I was shocked on one occasion when I was walking that they must believe something else that we tell them. down the road to see a billboard for a newspaper saying The colonialist agenda of trying to impose western something like “Homos arrested in march”. I had no values on them became quite an issue. idea that such language was still used. What was often said to me then was, “If only they’d keep it to themselves, Pamela Nash: I have had similar conversations with they wouldn’t be bringing this attention on themselves Ugandan politicians. Does my hon. Friend agree that it and would be able to just carry on quietly.” That language is important to ensure that we are not seen as promoting has been used since time immemorial to stop people a view or way of life on Ugandan people, but that the asserting their rights against discrimination and persecution. issue is human rights abuse? We need countries throughout the world to exert the sort of pressure that the UK As was mentioned, the Ugandan tabloid newspaper Government are exerting. We must work with other Rolling Stone published in 2010 the full names, addresses Governments to ensure that we are not seen as an old and photographs of 100 prominent and allegedly gay colonial power imposing a belief on Ugandan people. Ugandans, accompanied by a call for their execution. The headline was “Hang Them”. One of those on the list was leading gay rights activist David Kato, who was Kerry McCarthy: I agree with my hon. Friend. I was beaten to death in January 2011. He was murdered in Jordan recently, and was talking to a couple of shortly after winning a lawsuit against a magazine that women political activists from the Islamic Action Front, had published his name and photograph, identifying which is the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood. him as gay and calling for him to be executed. There We got on to issues such as gay rights, and alcohol was a suggestion that he had been robbed by someone, consumption. Parts of Jordan are tourist destinations but most people do not give that allegation much credence. and women wear bikinis on beaches, and so on. We could not claim that wearing a bikini on a beach is a Then there is the anti-homosexuality Bill currently fundamental human right, but with gay rights there before the Ugandan Parliament. The Ugandan penal may be certain values, and we should not accept that code already prohibits consensual sex between individuals people’s cultural or religious beliefs allow them to persecute of the same sex. However, the Bill goes much further. It or discriminate against people because of their sexuality. originally called for the death penalty for consensual same-sex acts, but now calls for life imprisonment. Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I appreciate However, it still introduces the death penalty for the the hon. Lady’s speech so far, and I have listened offence of “aggravated homosexuality”, which is defined carefully. The thrust of the speech by my hon. Friend as an HIV-positive man having intercourse with a man the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who introduced who is HIV-negative. It also punishes those who do not the debate, was the persecution of Christians in Uganda. report within 24 hours violations of the Bill’s provisions. I am interested to hear what the two Front-Bench That applies to people who do not accuse others of spokesmen say about the representations about Christians. being involved in homosexual activity if they believe The hon. Lady has not placed much emphasis on that that they have been. The Bill also criminalises the so far. “promotion” of homosexuality. The Bill has been widely criticised by human rights Kerry McCarthy: Uganda is quite a strongly Christian organisations and Uganda’s diplomatic partners. President country.I have worked with organisations such as Christian Obama called the Bill “odious”. Thankfully, President Solidarity Worldwide, the Barnabas Trust and so on Museveni publicly distanced himself from the Bill when that have campaigned on the persecution of Christians it was brought before the Parliament in 2010 and 2011. in other countries. I had not had representations about I was in Ghana recently with the Westminster Foundation persecution of Christians in Uganda until the hon. for Democracy and ended up spending a day with a Gentleman spoke. I appreciate that there is a particular group of Ugandan MPs, who raised the subject with issue for people who have converted from Islam. They 231WH Uganda (Human Rights)24 APRIL 2012 Uganda (Human Rights) 232WH

[Kerry McCarthy] position on the wide range of subjects that have been raised. We condemn in the strongest possible terms the may have particular problems, and obviously their security atrocities carried out by the Lord’s Resistance Army. I should be protected because their right to practise whatever assure hon. Members that we remain active in working religion they choose is important, but that right cannot with international partners to disband the LRA and to extend to supporting discrimination or persecution of bring Joseph Kony to justice. Apprehending him will people whose sexuality is different. It is important to not be straightforward. About 300 remaining LRA flag that up in this debate. fighters operate across remote and hostile terrain in a I know that the Minister wants to spend some time region the UN estimates is comparable in size to the responding to the debate, so I will finish. There are United Kingdom. However, concerted international effort concerns about the HIV/AIDS prevention and control will overcome those obstacles and see Joseph Kony held Bill, which was retabled in the Ugandan parliament in to account and the LRA cease to exist. That is, very February 2012. It calls for mandatory HIV testing, and strongly, our objective. forced disclosure of HIV status in certain cases. I appreciate what a devastating impact the AIDS epidemic has had Jim Shannon: I do not want to steal the thunder of in Uganda and many other sub-Saharan African countries. the hon. Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton- When I was there, I saw the work of public education Brown), but he asked what help the Government can campaigns, and particularly those targeting older men give the 5,000 members of the African Union army in who single out under-age girls because they think they pursuing Joseph Kony. He mentioned helicopter support. will not be HIV-positive. I appreciate that the country Are the Government considering that? If not, could it wants to do more to tackle the AIDS problem, but be considered? forced disclosure and mandatory reporting and testing are likely to violate human rights on a number of Mr Browne: I do not have information specifically grounds, so they are a matter for concern and vigilance. about the use of helicopters, but I was starting to The Bill has also been criticised by gay rights activists explain what we are doing to try to bring the LRA’s because it excludes homosexuals from prevention activities to a conclusion. programmes. The LRA, as many Members will know, was forced Finally, I return to UK financial assistance to Uganda. out of Uganda in 2006 and does not now pose a At one point, we withdrew some direct budget support security threat to the country. It still operates in the to the Ugandan Government because of concerns about Democratic Republic of the Congo, the Central African the 2006 elections. We enter dangerous waters when we Republic and South Sudan. Supporting those countries introduce an element of conditionality into aid—the in efforts finally to rid central Africa of the scourge of debate in the past has always been about economic the LRA remains our Government’s priority. Our efforts conditionality, such as linking support to water privatisation to do so have been set out by the Minister of State with programmes—but we should require certain standards responsibility for Africa, my hon. Friend the Member from the countries to which we offer aid. I agree with for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), in my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts that correspondence that he has sent to all Members of the it would be a dereliction of our duty to the people of House of Commons. Uganda if we withdrew aid, but it is important that any In our role as UN Security Council lead on LRA aid we give the country is accompanied by strong messages issues, the UK secured the UN Security Council presidential and, where appropriate, criticism of Uganda’s human statement of November 2011, which tasked the UN to rights record. We should use aid not as a strong-arm deliver a regional strategy to combat the LRA. We have tactic, but as leverage to get across our points to the pressed the UN to make this strategy coherent, co-ordinated Ugandan Government. and results-focused and then to deliver on it swiftly. 12.6 pm Furthermore, we have ensured the specific inclusion The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth of LRA issues in mandates of UN peacekeeping and Office (Mr Jeremy Browne): This is the first time I have political missions across the region. We have also pressed served under your chairmanship, Ms Clark, and it is a for robust language on civilian protection in these mandates privilege to do so. I am grateful for the opportunity to and for better co-ordination and intelligence-sharing conclude this important debate, and I congratulate the between peacekeeping operations. hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on raising In the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the UK this topic. He contributes to many debates on foreign offers vital financial support to the UN peacekeeping affairs, and he always does so with great passion and force, providing important protection to civilians from authority. armed groups, including the LRA. We also support the I congratulate everybody else who has participated in UN’s disarmament and demobilisation efforts that are what has been a very consensual debate, even though it reintegrating remaining LRA combatants back into has been full of strong feelings. It has also been full of communities. important insights from Members on both sides of the In Uganda, the Department for International Chamber, many of whom drew on their own direct Development is halfway through a £100 million programme observations. The passion communicated in all their committed to supporting development in northern Uganda speeches will be heard way beyond the walls of this as it recovers from two decades of conflict and from the room, including by many people in Uganda, whether or terrible legacy left by the LRA. Through this programme not they are in government. we work with the Ugandan Government’s peace, recovery Given that I have a little longer than is sometimes the and development plan for the north, which has allowed case in such debates, let me, for the benefit of hon. the vast majority of Ugandans displaced by the LRA’s Members, lay out in greater detail the British Government’s activities to return home. In terms of institutional endeavour, 233WH Uganda (Human Rights)24 APRIL 2012 Uganda (Human Rights) 234WH financial support and practical assistance, I hope Members Although I do not wish to make an overly flattering will be reassured that the United Kingdom is taking the portrait of the situation in Uganda, we feel that there pre-eminent role in the world. has been some genuine progress in terms of civil liberties and the wider debate in Uganda. It is important that Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I had not intended to focus Uganda has responded positively to the United Nations’ part of my speech on the LRA, but I do know a bit universal periodic review of the country, which was about it. The problem is that Joseph Kony is highly published in October 2011 and assessed the human mobile. He never sleeps in the same place twice. He goes rights concerns in the country. We are assured that the into a village and terrorises the villagers. What those Ugandan Government are taking steps to create a national forces require are helicopters to keep ahead of him and action plan for the implementation of universal periodic clever intelligence to find out where he has been and review recommendations on tackling human rights where he is going. Those two things have been lacking concerns, which were raised in that report. We will work so far, which is why he has been able to get away with with Uganda to do what we can to make sure that those what he has. honourable intentions bear fruit. However, Uganda still needs to address a number of Mr Browne: I am grateful for that additional insight serious human rights issues to ensure that it makes from my hon. Friend. Let me bring his observations to further progress. Many of those issues were raised in the direct attention of the Minister for Africa and, if it our debate. The UK remains concerned about developments is necessary, of the Ministry of Defence, so that we can in the country that pose a threat to freedom of expression. consider how we can more effectively assist in the ways In April and May 2011 there was heavy-handed suppression in which he describes. I do not wish to go down the path of opposition protests. Since then the authorities in of operational detail in this speech because I am ill-equipped Uganda have imposed further restrictions on freedom to do so, but we all share the same objective of providing of assembly for protestors. practical assistance wherever we can. The Ugandan Parliament is currently considering Like many countries in East Africa, Uganda has a legislation that aims to regulate public demonstrations. turbulent history. We are all aware of the horrors the There are rules and regulations in all countries, including country suffered during the era of Idi Amin and the our own, but it is important that the right balance is conflict that followed. As the hon. Member for Bristol struck between maintaining law and order and allowing East (Kerry McCarthy) said, Uganda remains staggeringly freedom of assembly. The Minister for Africa raised our poor. As people who know the country well, after concerns about this issue with President Museveni when decades of political turbulence and violence there is a he visited Uganda in February. We will continue to raise lot to be depressed about. concerns where we feel that that balance is not being It is also true to say that over two decades Uganda correctly struck. has developed from a one-party state to an emerging multi-party democracy with a strengthened Parliament. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I am concerned that the It has a largely independent judiciary. There is a budding, perception of my hon. Friend or the Foreign Office and if fragile, culture of political debate, and its media is what is happening on the ground in Uganda seem to be able to criticise the Government. There has been progress at variance. Since the lure of having held the on gender equality—women play an active role in politics Commonwealth games and the Commonwealth Heads and Uganda has a system that actively encourages the of Government Meeting in Uganda, Museveni has been election of female MPs. There is also growing freedom given greater free reign to carry out human rights of religion, and faith groups are able to express themselves abuses, which seem to have got significantly worse since freely. As a predominantly Christian country, the church the election. I should not like the Minister’s perception— is politically active and plays an important role in what he said in his speech—and what is happening on society. the ground to be ignored. I hope that he will bear that in mind. Jim Shannon: As the Minister has clearly outlined, there is religious freedom. But hon. Members have been Mr Browne: I certainly will. I confess that I do not saying that there are many examples of Christians being speak from first-hand experience on these matters. I am persecuted and the police and the Government of the not the Minister for Africa—he is in Africa, which is land have not backed those people up. That is our point. why I am replying to this debate—but I want to ensure Although I appreciate the Minister’s contribution, I that the Foreign Office’s understanding of the situation want to underline that matter, because it is important is entirely in accord with the reality, as perceived by my that we do not let it pass. hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown). We will take his advice seriously and I Mr Browne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for will ensure that it is understood and scrutinised properly further underlining that important point. I say unequivocally by the African department of the Foreign and that the Government—I am sure that I speak for hon. Commonwealth Office. Members from all parties—deplore discrimination against Christians on the basis that the hon. Gentleman describes Fiona Bruce: This is particularly important. As I and always look to support the freedom of all citizens understand it, DFID has committed £100 million to to practise whatever faith they hold true to themselves, post-conflict development in northern Uganda over the as we do in this country. We will make further current five-year period. Building legitimacy, improving representations to reflect the concerns that the hon. the capacity of local government to deliver services, Gentleman has brought vividly to our attention this supporting government, civil society and communities afternoon. to engage peacefully and reconciliation are all important 235WH Uganda (Human Rights)24 APRIL 2012 Uganda (Human Rights) 236WH

[Fiona Bruce] Mr Browne: That may be a more appropriate matter for the Minister for Africa to discuss than for the post-conflict work but, as we have heard today, conflict Minister for Equalities, but I have heard the hon. is still happening. There is still abuse and oppression, Gentleman’s representation, I shall communicate it and and I ask the Minister to discuss with his counterpart we shall see if it can contribute to any such discussions. for Africa the £100 million dedicated to post-conflict work while so much trouble is still occurring. Women in Uganda continue to face a number of very serious threats, including high levels of domestic violence Mr Browne: We do not always get a clean break and the continuing traditional practice of female genital between conflict and the absence of conflict. The assessment mutilation. Again, there has been some progress. Uganda of DFID and the Foreign Office is that progress is has agreed to ratify the optional protocol to the convention sufficient for us to make a difference with the types of on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against programmes described by my hon. Friend. I understand women. Uganda passed the Domestic Violence Act 2010 her concerns, and in the time available I will address and the Prevention of Female Genital Mutilation Act some of that issue and others, if I may continue my 2009, which are significant steps for protecting the speech. rights of women. The task is for those good intentions Laws against and repression of homosexuals were to be implemented. Through the Department for rightly mentioned at length by the hon. Members for International Development, the UK supports civil society Bristol East and for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash) initiatives to promote knowledge and implementation and others. For the avoidance of doubt, I will spell out of the legislation, and protection centres for victims. the British Government’s clear position. The United This week, our Minister for Equalities will visit those Kingdom is strongly committed to upholding the rights projects and lobby the Ugandan Government to ensure and freedoms of people of all sexual orientations. The they implement its legislation to protect women from Prime Minister made the United Kingdom’s opposition violence. This is a topical issue, which is being afforded to the criminalisation of homosexuality clear at the attention by the Government at ministerial level this Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in October very week. 2011. In Kampala, the United Kingdom continues to The Ugandan human rights commission’s 2010 report lobby strongly against the proposals in the Bill and is noted a high number of complaints about the use of working closely with civil society groups campaigning torture. The UK condemns unreservedly the use of against them. The Minister for Africa expressed our torture. However, there have been some recent concerns to the President when they met in February, improvements. Uganda has signed up to the optional and the Minister for Equalities, who arrives in Kampala protocol to the UN convention against torture. As this evening, will underscore the United Kingdom’s Uganda reported at its universal periodic review, 36 police opposition to the proposals when she meets the Ugandan officers have been charged in court for torture-related Government. We are doing all that we can to give offences. The UK continues to support Ugandan non- formal force to the views that were rightly strongly governmental organisations in their efforts to bring expressed by Members during the debate. forward a private Member’s Bill aimed at enshrining the On the nature of the assistance that we provide to convention in domestic legislation and ensuring that Uganda, to return to the previous intervention, UK aid those who torture are individually liable for their acts. is aimed at reducing poverty and at helping the most We understand that the Ugandan Government support vulnerable people. Often those at greatest risk of human the Bill, and we look forward to it passing into law and rights abuses in developing countries need our help the being implemented. We also support civil society efforts most. We do not attach conditionality to our aid for against the death penalty and will continue to lobby for that very reason. We do, however, hold full and frank the Ugandan Government to abolish it entirely. discussions with recipient countries about issues of concern, including human rights, as we have done with In conclusion, I thank the hon. Member for Strangford the Ugandan Government on the importance that we for raising this subject. He participates in almost every attach to equality and non-discrimination. We hold debate that I take part in as a Minister, which is to his those Governments that receive aid through direct budgetary great credit. His passion and interest in foreign policy support to account, to ensure that that represents the issues, and the sincerity with which he contributes, best way of getting results and value for money for the shines through. He has given us a welcome opportunity United Kingdom taxpayer. If we cannot give aid directly to discuss Uganda and the wide range of concerns that to Governments, because we are not sufficiently confident exist regarding freedom of religious practice, intolerance about how that aid is being spent, we find other routes and the persecution of gays, the Lord’s Resistance to help people whom we assess need our assistance Army, and the abuse of women. I hope that some of the because of the straitened circumstances in which they encouraging signs demonstrate progress. The British live. Government will try to give maximum effect to that progress and will contribute in whatever way that is Jim Shannon: Further to the point made by the hon. most useful. We are committed to having a strong and Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on the £100 million fruitful relationship with Uganda. I hope that that was available in aid, is it possible to review how to enable the demonstrated when I talked about the Minister for benefits from Uganda’s oil reserves to filter down to Africa’s direct interest and this week’s visit by the Minister those at the lower levels—in poverty—in those discussions for Equalities. Uganda is important to us. It has experienced that Ministers will be having with the Ugandan turmoil and strife, and we want to ensure that the views Government? That is a moral issue as well, but can the expressed in the debate contribute to creating a much Minister introduce it into discussions with the Ugandan more prosperous, successful and peaceful Uganda. Government? 237WH 24 APRIL 2012 Association of Chief Police Officers 238WH

Association of Chief Police Officers case of Linda van den Hende, paperwork was present for a 12-month period, although she worked for four years. 12.29 pm ACPO is an organisation charged with ensuring best Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): It is a practice for the police service of our country, and it is pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Clark. I funded largely by taxpayers’ money. There is, however, am pleased to have secured this debate. Police officers form in this area. Last year, the Independent Police do fantastic work on the streets of our constituencies, Complaints Commission found that £30,000 had been but of late there have been many instances of the police paid to the deputy chief constable of North Yorkshire themselves being under investigation. For example, there police, without any auditing to find out how it had been are allegations that the police have been too cosy in spent. Graham Maxwell leads North Yorkshire police their relationship with journalists, and in my part of the and he has been found guilty of gross misconduct. He is country, North Yorkshire, the outgoing chief constable also the finance lead on ACPO. has been found guilty of gross misconduct after an ACPO seems to feel that the Freedom of Information investigation that cost taxpayers £300,000. There are Act should be only partially applied, and it has published also investigations into Cleveland police. details only of those consultants employed at its head Our police leaders should be beyond reproach, but office. I took up the case in a letter to Sir Hugh Orde the example set by the leadership, the Association of who chairs ACPO, and I asked for copies of contracts Chief Police Officers, leaves much to be desired. We all and details of the procurement processes for every agree on the need for a co-ordinated approach to policing consultant engaged by the organisation over the past in this country, and that cannot be run county by three years. He responded by saying that he would set county. However, the organisation that provides such up a review that will be led by ACPO’s head of professional leadership needs to be professional and clean, but ACPO standards, overseen by ACPO’s council, and monitored is riddled with conflicts of interest and poor governance. by Transparency International UK. So Sir Hugh will I want to examine the way that ACPO operates and not respond directly to a request by an elected Member what it has been up to in recent years, and shine a of Parliament. He has tasked the person and board who spotlight on the organisation as the Government consider should surely have been looking at the matters in question its future. on an ongoing basis, and they will be checked and ACPO was incorporated as a private limited company supervised by an organisation the bulk of whose work is in 1997, and it is that status that causes such tension advising corrupt Governments. and concern. The organisation is primarily funded by I urge the Minister to support my call for ACPO to the taxpayer, and it receives hundreds of thousands of release details of every consultant engaged over the past pounds from the Home Office and police authority three years in each of its business areas, with details of budgets around the country. Millions more come via how those payments were calculated and what procurement special projects that ACPO undertakes on national processes were used. I also ask for his support in referring policing issues, and its staff are entitled to generous civil the matters to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, service pensions. Despite receiving large amounts of which has thus far been vague with me about whether it taxpayers’ money as a private company, ACPO was will check the tax situation pertaining to the arrangements initially not open to the scrutiny of freedom of information in question. Will the Minister confirm how much the legislation. Last year, ACPO was subjected to FOI civil service pensions of ACPO staff currently cost the legislation for the first time, although that does not taxpayer? appear to have opened up the organisation as the As ACPO is a private company, it has also been able Government hoped. ACPO is being dragged, kicking to engage in commercial activities. It is impossible to get and screaming, towards transparency. a picture of what it gets up to commercially, because the Last month, via a freedom of information request, set-up has no central source of information. For the Rob Waugh of the Yorkshire Post found that hundreds most part, the publication of limited accounts has been of thousands of pounds were being paid in contracts to permitted, as the concerns in question are small businesses. consultants who were often former senior police officers. Two companies that have spun off from ACPO are More worryingly, he discovered that in many cases ACPO Crime Prevention Initiatives Ltd and Road Safety those consultants were employed without any of the Support Ltd. Those are both not-for-profit companies, procurement processes and controls that ACPO tells which are limited by guarantee. Both appear not to use individual police forces to follow. Most of the payments confidential data held by police forces, but much of were made through personal service companies. their business is obtained because of their close links According to the Yorkshire Post, more than £800,000 with ACPO and their links to former senior police was paid to 10 consultants, largely over the past three officers. years, from ACPO’s central office. The payments include For example, ACPO Crime Prevention Initiatives Ltd over £190,000 for the services of a former chief constable is entirely owned by ACPO and its registered office for of Essex at a rate of around £1,000 a day, with payments the last company accounts was the same as ACPO’s. Its made through a consultancy company. One former directors, as listed in the last available return from detective superintendent received over £200,000 through Companies House, include an assistant chief constable his company, and a former assistant chief constable in from Northamptonshire, the former chief constable of Cumbria was paid £180,000. ACPO has its own guidelines Lincolnshire police, the current ACPO chief executive, that require three quotes for expenses over £1,000, and a former Metropolitan police deputy assistant tendering for amounts of £50,000. Alarmingly however, commissioner, a former Sussex police officer and a the Yorkshire Post was unable to find any evidence that former assistant chief constable of Strathclyde police. those rules were followed in any of those cases. In the Just like the consultancies that have been dished out by 239WH Association of Chief Police Officers24 APRIL 2012 Association of Chief Police Officers 240WH

[Julian Smith] does he think that all of this has for the future status of ACPO, bearing in mind the importance of combining ACPO, using public money, to former senior police independence, accountability and freedom from political chiefs, those companies seem to provide tasty directorships interference? for senior police officers. In one case it appears that a chief constable was a director on a company while still Julian Smith: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for in his role as chief of police. his intervention. I am just about to get there. I would ACPO Crime Prevention Initiatives Ltd is funded like the Minister’s support in getting all of the information through partnership with companies whose products on these ACPO companies. meet technical standards identified by the company. In return, the licensed company is able to utilise the Secured by Design logo and, on those products which meet the Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): I too congratulate my technical standard, the title “Police Preferred Specification” hon. Friend on securing this debate. It is clear that some can be used. By offering “Police Preferred Specification” significant concerns about transparency have been raised as a slogan, the line is blurred, with many people who here. Is my hon. Friend able to say something about buy products with that slogan expecting approval to ACPO perhaps giving some reassurance to the victims come from taxpayer-funded police services, rather than of crime whom it has failed through its conduct? from a private company that is given permission by ACPO to use the name. Julian Smith: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Road Safety Support Ltd was formed in 2007. It She has done some fantastic work with victims in this provides training to speed camera operators and advice area. The lack of consideration of both victims and the and information on camera placement. In the last set of people whom the police chiefs serve has been the cause accounts from Companies House it had three directors, of many of the issues I have raised today. one of whom is the recently retired former chief constable I would like some additional thoughts from the Minister of South Yorkshire police. He, for some time, was also on these companies. For example, what will happen to the representative for ACPO on road policing. Curiously, them when, inevitably, ACPO changes or is wound up? the same three directors are also directors of another These companies have traded on the taxpayer’s name. company, NDORS Ltd, which is registered at the same Going back to my hon. Friend’s remarks about victims, address as Road Safety Support Ltd. That company if there is some benefit from selling these companies, runs speed awareness courses—presumably for those perhaps it could go to the victims. I would be grateful to who have been caught by cameras, who may have been the Minister if he could tell us how we ensure that the placed on advice from Road Safety Support Ltd. taxpayer fully benefits from the wind-up of these companies. In those companies, which all make use of their close Towards the end of last year, the Home Secretary links to the police, directorships and jobs are provided told the House in a written statement that a new police for former senior police officers who have left forces professional body was to be created to develop policing across the country, and the crossovers in what are, as a single profession, representing the entire service supposedly, separate limited companies, are clear to see. and acting only in the public interest. It also envisaged As police chiefs collected gold plated pensions, they the setting up of a chief constable’s council to enable were able to top up those already huge pensions with senior officers to assess and discuss critical operational either a consultancy with ACPO or a directorship with issues. I understand that ACPO is resisting that development one of its spin-off companies. I am today writing to and the idea of becoming part of a broader professional Sir Hugh Orde to ask for a list of every individual who body because it wants to maintain some form of chiefs’ has been a director at an ACPO-related company over club. As the Home Affairs Committee recently stated, the past three years and whether they were also working all levels of the police family should be represented in in any capacity with ACPO or with a police force at the the new professional organisation. Many of the problems time. I want to know what projects they were working at ACPO seem to have come from an arrogance, a lack on and how much they were paid. I have also asked of challenge from the lower ranks and a belief that Sir Hugh for copies of the full accounts of every ACPO- command and control means that the chiefs are accountable related company and not just the redacted small company to no one. version that appears at Companies House. My message to ACPO is that I and a number of colleagues will relentlessly pursue what it has been Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Does doing. It will all come out in the end, so get it out now the hon. Gentleman agree that the vagueness and the and respond quickly to our questions. What does the secrecy that he identifies only lead to suspicion? Therefore, Minister see as the timetable for the future of the it is vital that our police service is beyond reproach. organisation and what discussions have the Government had with the president of ACPO to ensure a smooth Julian Smith: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. My transition to the new body? Can he confirm that the experience in my constituency is of excellent policing. Government are pushing ahead with a new all-level What I am trying to get at in this debate is that some of professional body for the police? What measures are the the things at the top appear to be not beyond reproach. Government taking to ensure that the new body is fully transparent and accountable? The role of this country’s Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate most senior police officers is vital in protecting our the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate country and our constituents, but I urge the Minister and the Yorkshire Post on its investigative work. It is and the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice to clearly important that transparency is brought to bear reject point blank any idea that ACPO should be retained on all of the matters that he has raised. What implications or revived? Of course there should be a strong professional 241WH Association of Chief Police Officers24 APRIL 2012 Association of Chief Police Officers 242WH body for the whole of the police service, and of course raised today regarding accountability and transparency there should not be a special cosy club for police chiefs. within policing in England and Wales. We are grateful Many people involved in ACPO have, at best, been that ACPO agrees that change is necessary and for the negligent or, at worst, corrupt in how they have managed constructive way in which its presidential team are the resources and opportunities they were granted. I engaging with the Home Office regarding the future of have seen that locally in North Yorkshire, and we have ACPO. seen it nationally. My hon. Friend the Member for In August 2010, the Home Secretary asked Peter North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) found Neyroud to carry out a fundamental review of the similar issues with the National Police Improvement delivery of leadership and training functions in policing. Agency. The Government’s policing reforms are right, In response to the review, the Government announced but they should be even bolder. ACPO should be wound their intention to create a new police professional body, up as quickly as possible, and such gold-plated, dodgy which presents a unique opportunity further to clubs for any leaders of public organisations should be professionalise policing and increase public accountability. consigned to the past. As part of that work, the National Policing Improvement Agency will be phased out by the end of this year. 12.46 pm The Home Secretary has acknowledged a continued need for chief constables to come together for discussion The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the on key operational issues and also when it is in the Home Department (James Brokenshire): I welcome you public interest for them to do so. Indeed, we are clear to the Chair, Ms Clark. I congratulate my hon. Friend that chief officers will continue to play a vital role, both the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) on within the professional body and as part of a chiefs raising a number of significant and important questions council, which will work with the new professional relating to the Association of Chief Police Officers to body. Together, those two bodies will equip the service which I will respond. with the skills that it needs to deliver effective crime My hon. Friend has made a number of criticisms fighting in a changing, leaner and more accountable about the leadership of the police service in England environment. We are currently working with ACPO and and Wales, but I welcome his positive statement about key partners to consider the precise remit of the chiefs the work of front-line officers. We must be clear that council, its relationship with the new body and the police officers and staff throughout the country have transition of ACPO functions. The Government have our support in their fantastic work in keeping us all safe agreed to continue to fund ACPO’s grant-aid during the day in, day out. 2012-13 financial year while those discussions take place. In the context of some of the specific issues that my hon. Friend raised, I am aware that Sir Hugh Orde, Mr Andrew Smith: Is it the Government’s intention president of ACPO, has written to my hon. Friend that the two bodies to which the Minister refers about the issues he has raised, and I am satisfied that will take on all ACPO’s present responsibilities, or will ACPO has taken and is taking those criticisms seriously. certain areas—perhaps co-ordination on counter-terrorism That was demonstrated by the decision of the ACPO or serious crime—be the responsibility of a separate cabinet earlier this month to conduct a review of spending body? on consultants within ACPO. As its president outlined in his letter to my hon. Friend, that review will also look James Brokenshire: It is precisely those issues that are at how financial controls have been applied over the last the subject of the detailed discussions between the three years. The whole process will be subject to external Government and ACPO. We will come forward in due scrutiny by Transparency International, and the results course with further details of the police professional will be made public. body and its precise functions. That will be the right A review is the right course of action, and it is time for the Government to set out in detail proposals appropriate to allow it to proceed and its report to be for the police professional body, but it may help the published before commenting further on the details. I right hon. Gentleman if I say this. As the Government agree that every organisation that receives money must have made clear, the challenge for the police service is to be open and transparent about how that money is reduce crime to make communities feel safer. At the spent. Sir Hugh Orde stated that clearly to my hon. same time, forces must deliver significant savings to Friend in his response to him, and I note that he has meet the challenges set by the spending review. Tackling agreed to meet my hon. Friend to discuss any further those two challenges together will require transformational issues in detail. change; it cannot be done by relying on the existing My hon. Friend highlighted a significant point about structures at national level in policing. They require a ACPO’s independence. It is a private company limited fresh way of thinking. In particular, they require the by guarantee. It is not owned or controlled by the Home development of a professional model for policing. At Office, and is operationally independent. The discussion the heart of that model is the creation of the police of ACPO’s future role and funding must be framed in professional body. the light of the wider work taking place on police The new body will safeguard the public and fight reform. As part of my right hon. Friend the Home crime by ensuring professionalism in policing. It will Secretary’s intention, which is laid out in the White develop skills and leadership, facilitating the drive to Paper, “Policing in the 21st century”, the Government reduce bureaucracy, and will have greater public have embarked on the most radical programme of reform accountability. The professional body will speak for the to policing in 50 years. We are currently developing the whole of policing and will directly support police officers bodies necessary to support and reinforce those reforms. at all ranks and civilian policing professionals. It will set That work will help to deal with many of the concerns and improve standards of professionalism in the police 243WH Association of Chief Police Officers24 APRIL 2012 Association of Chief Police Officers 244WH

[James Brokenshire] privatisation; policing will remain a public service. However, by harnessing private sector innovation, skills and economies service and will take responsibility for specialist police of scale, forces can transform how they work and disciplines. Work is under way on the detailed design of improve the service they provide to the public. the new body. As well as saving money, our reforms are about The role of the professional body must be understood making policing better. We are rebuilding the link between within the wider policing landscape and, in particular, the police and the public. In November, the first elections the transformation in accountability that the introduction for police and crime commissioners will take place. of police and crime commissioners will bring. It will Elected by local people, commissioners will have the need to reflect that shift in how it is constituted, in what democratic mandate to set their local police force budget, it delivers and in how it delivers that. Its most important and they will respond to local people’s concerns by role will be to act in the public interest. setting the force’s priorities. Key to that, and reflecting the move towards greater accountability, will be the way in which the professional The direction of police reform provides a clear basis body is structured. It will be chaired by someone for the way in which the police professional body will independent of the police service, and its board will operate. The police service is becoming more open, have an equal balance of police service and non-police more transparent and more accountable to the public, service representatives, including police and crime and it is right and proper that that is the case. commissioners. It will be open and transparent. In taking its work forwards, it will need to take into In “Policing in the 21st Century”, we said that we account public need in setting and inculcating standards expect chief police officers to continue to play a key role among officers and staff. It will also need to take into in advising the Government, police and crime consideration the cost of any changes it recommends to commissioners and the police service on strategy and develop professionalism. That will form a crucial part best practice. We will also expect chief constables to of its ability to enhance the British model of policing by play a leading role in driving value for money and to consent. have the capability to drive out costs in their forces. Many criticisms have been made today of the ACPO is operationally independent of the Home accountability and transparency of decision making by Office, so it is a matter for the company directors to senior police officers. There are, however, clear examples determine its future. ACPO has played a valuable role of where the police have responded impressively to the since it was established in 1948, providing a means for need for change. This is one public service whose leaders chief constables to come together to agree a common generally recognise the difficult economic times and way of working in the absence of any federal policing understand the benefits that reform can bring. Greater structures. I re-emphasise that the Government fully Manchester police, for example, have saved £62 million appreciate the contribution that chief officers continue a year from their support functions, releasing 348 police to make at a national and local level, particularly those officers from those roles so that they can get back to chiefs who are directly supporting the substantial reform front-line work. Surrey police have carried out a significant agenda. We look forward to building on all that ACPO restructuring, which has allowed them to commit to has achieved. increasing constable numbers by up to 200 over the next four years. The Government’s agenda for police reform is strong Some forces are going even further, moving beyond and coherent, and will free the police to fight crime at a restructuring and outsourcing, to building strategic national and local level, deliver better value for taxpayers relationships with the private sector. This is not about and give the public a stronger voice. 245WH 24 APRIL 2012 Equality and Human Rights 246WH Commission Equality and Human Rights Commission terms of devolution? The Secretary of State for Scotland has failed to meet the Equality and Human Rights 12.59 pm Commission Scotland, and the last time that he met the organisation was in July 2010. Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Sandra Osborne: I very much share my hon. Friend’s Ms Clark. concerns, and I am very disappointed to hear that the Staff at the Equality and Human Rights Commission Secretary of State for Scotland has not met anyone are experts in their field and are deeply concerned about about this important issue. the attack on equalities represented by the proposed 62% budget cut and 72% staffing cut by 2015 from the Regional offices will be shut or reduced. For example, original levels in 2007. They and their trade unions—the the Bristol and Nottingham offices have already been Public and Commercial Services Union and Unite—believe shut for about a year, and further offices planned for that those cuts amount to the closure of the EHRC as closure are Birmingham, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Bangor, we know it and its transformation into little more than Guildford, Cambridge and Leeds, and the offices in a think-tank. Manchester, London, Glasgow and Cardiff are to shrink. In addition, grant functions will end—some ended in The eminent QC, Sir Bob Hepple, states in a recent March 2012 and the rest will end March 2013. article for the Industrial Law Journal that the Commission’s “ability to use effectively even its restricted powers will be compromised I want to go into more detail about the cuts and pose by severe cuts in its annual budget”. some questions to the Minister. The EHRC helpline The EHRC is an independent statutory body established currently provides direct advice to callers, and staff can by Parliament under the Equality Act 2006. As a regulator, refer cases for consideration for legal support by the the commission is responsible for enforcing equality commission. Of the more than 70,000 calls received legislation on age, disability, gender, race, religion or every year by the helpline, despite the fact that it has belief, sexual orientation or transgender status and never been properly advertised, the majority group calling encouraging compliance with the Human Rights Act 1998. for advice is disabled people. The helpline will be closed Its powers include promoting understanding and and replaced by September 2012 with a referral service encouraging good practice in relation to human rights, signposting callers to potential sources of help. The monitoring the law and providing legal assistance, providing outsourced referral line will not have the conciliation information and advice, conducting inquiries and judicial powers or legal assistance powers that the commission reviews, providing a conciliation service, and grant making has under the Equality Act 2006. powers. In addition, European directives contain A recent Guardian article by David Hencke on 3 April requirements for an equality body within member states. reported that the jobs agency at the centre of a fraud Let me turn for a few moments to the Scottish inquiry, A4e, is the preferred bidder for the EHRC dimension, given the very different political, legal and helpline service. The Government Equalities Office has economic landscape. The proposed cuts would threaten informed staff that the preferred bidder said that it will high-profile work in Scotland, such as the disability not keep any provision in Scotland or Wales. harassment inquiry, the human trafficking inquiry, guidance More than 30% of staff who currently work for the to public bodies on their obligations under equality law helpline are disabled, some 20% are from black and and the EHRC hosting of Independent Living in Scotland. minority ethnic communities and 20% are carers. Given The Scottish helpline deals with more than 5,000 calls the impossibility of relocating for many, particularly in per annum, the largest proportion of which are from Scotland and Wales where provision will end, and high Scots who have been subjected to disability discrimination. likelihood of workers opting for redundancy, the expertise The Scottish helpline also provides a UK-wide service. of those highly experienced advisers will be lost. The nature of the advice is highly technical. No other organisation with equivalent experience and knowledge Ann McKechin: My hon. Friend may be aware that can fill the gap and provide a similar quality of service. helpline workers in Scotland were advised last year that The fact the commission is losing its funding function their contract with EHRC would terminate at the end is already leaving a gap in the finances of well-respected of March. However, they have now been advised that organisations such as the Govan Law Centre, the Glasgow they are requested to work until the end of June, Disability Alliance, the Equality Network and the Central because as yet no provider has been identified and an Scotland Racial Equality Council—to name just a handful. award of contracts has not been made. Does she agree What impact will the 62% budget cut have? The work that this is an utterly chaotic way to conduct a Government force will be cut by more than half; legal enforcement agency? capabilities will be reduced; the helpline will close by September 2012; and current provision in Scotland and Wales will end. Sandra Osborne: Yes; that typical of how staff have been treated in the agency. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): I congratulate The chances of a smooth transition to the referral my hon. Friend on securing this debate on an organisation line and retention of expertise, as the Government that is of great importance to some of the most vulnerable claim, are therefore negligible. Given the one third people in our society. Does she share my concern that of operators who are disabled, one fifth from BME there has been absolutely no planning or any sign of communities and one fifth who are carers, what equality planning about how a service will be offered to vulnerable impact assessment has been made of the changes to the people who are suffering discrimination in Scotland helpline provision? Why the delay with the announcement that understands the specific context of Scotland in of the new helpline provider? The announcement was 247WH Equality and Human Rights 24 APRIL 2012 Equality and Human Rights 248WH Commission Commission [Sandra Osborne] the only legal aid available for discrimination cases will be for goods, facilities and services cases, which are in supposed to be made in mid-February, but it is now the minority and are complex and involve large sums. rumoured to have been pushed back to the middle of Employment cases will not be eligible for any legal aid May. support. The closure of regional offices will exacerbate the I want to turn now to the loss of independence and problems of advice deserts, where no other advisory United Nations “A” status. In 2009, the commission services exist, and the commission will lose its vital link became one of just 70 United Nations “A”status accredited to the public and vital access to crucial evidence of national human rights institutions. The EHRC is Britain’s emerging issues. Instead of remaining regionally focused, first accredited NHRI. The “A” status confers special teams have been reassigned to undertake national support rights and entitlements to work with the UN Human work. The loss of those offices and the intelligence-gathering Rights Council. To determine this status, the UN reviewed work that they do at grass-roots level, which my hon. the work and structure of the commission at the time Friend mentioned, will have a significant impact on the and found it to be compliant with the Paris principles. understanding of equality and human rights across Key Paris principles are that the NHRI must be independent Great Britain. of government and not be subject to financial control that might affect its independence. The commission Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the must also have adequate funding to conduct its activities. hon. Lady on bringing this matter to the House. Does The loss of independence, lack of financial control and she agree that in these days of cuts, which we are now lack of funding due to 62% cuts mean that this status is shaping up to, there is a danger that we are preventing in jeopardy. some people from taking advantage of legal guidance and legal aid? As I suspect that she is aware, we should The commission recently published its framework consider one section of the community in particular: agreement with the Home Office, which includes details ladies should get legal aid and advice at the time of their of spending controls and an obligation on the commission life when they need it most. to provide a business case for approval to the Home Office’s director of communications for all projects Sandra Osborne: I could not agree more, and I hope with an element of spend on advertising and marketing. to mention that later. If the project is spending more than £100,000, the What research has been done to ascertain the impact business case, once approved by the HO director of of the closure of regional offices on the problem of communication, should go to the Home Secretary and advice deserts and gathering evidence on emerging local Minister for Women and Equalities. Once HO Ministers issues? have approved it, the EHRC must complete the Cabinet Office’s exemption template and submit the case for Legal grants—projects providing specialist legal advice approval to the Cabinet Office Efficiency and Reform and representation in equality and human rights—ended Group and the Minister for the Cabinet Office. on 31 March, and strategic grants providing guidance, advice and advocacy services, infrastructure development, The agreement also states that the Home Office capacity building and good relations will end in March should receive near final versions of external EHRC 2013. Many disability and race groups have benefited communications 48 hours before issue. I do not know from the EHRC grants programme, as they did before whether that is independence. Many MPs will be surprised the EHRC’s creation. A grant received by a local equality that the framework agreement dictates how the commission body from the EHRC could, and often did, lead to interacts with Parliament and yet states categorically additional sources of revenue from other funders, such that the commission must be politically neutral and as the lottery, charities and local authorities. abide by the Cabinet Office’s rules on lobbying for non-departmental public bodies. The warnings by experts such as Race on the Agenda in 2007 that the local BME infrastructure would suffer The commission is also instructed to issue guidance significant funding reductions have been realised, not to staff, outlining when and how briefings for Parliament because of the EHRC’s creation, but because of are developed, the style of briefings and how briefings Government cuts to the EHRC grants programme. The should be internally cleared. Does the Minister believe Government have argued that the grants function, among that the framework agreement complies with the Paris other services, should close because they claim grants principles, particularly relating to independence? Has have little impact and the service function has not been he assessed the impact of the proposed budget cut to well managed. Although there is an ongoing complaint £26 million by the end of this year on the commission’s about the Government’s statement in this regard, it is independence? perhaps most telling to note that the experts and The current restructuring at the EHRC repeats many stakeholders also challenge the Government’s assertion. of the mistakes identified in the Public Accounts Committee A survey of providers by the Discrimination Law report of 2010. The report highlighted the problem of Association indicated that, without EHRC grants, advice staff with valuable skills leaving through an early exit organisations such as citizens advice bureaux and law scheme and went on to recommend that the Treasury centres would not be able to sustain their services and and the Cabinet Office should ensure that they provide that some might have to close down completely. My clear guidelines on the need to consider the retention of question to the Minister is, from whom have the key skills when devising early exit schemes. Government and/or EHRC received protestations about According to an answer to a parliamentary question, the withdrawal of the grants programme? the EHRC spent £500,000 a month at one stage on The EHRC’s mediation services have ended. Contrary consultancy fees and expenses for interim staff who are to the Government’s claims that legal aid will take up leading the work on reforming the commission. That is the shortfall, once the legal aid reforms are implemented, neither an acceptable use of public money, nor is it in 249WH Equality and Human Rights 24 APRIL 2012 Equality and Human Rights 250WH Commission Commission the interests of the taxpayer. These major changes are and independent EHRC, and I agree with them as the occurring as questions about the commission’s new chair of the all-party group on equalities. Those bodies chair go unanswered. What assurances can the Minister want a future in which an outward-looking, integrated give that the commission will not lose more skilled and and well-resourced commission that is in touch with the experienced staff through more early exit schemes and grass-roots concerns and needs of ordinary people provides that it will not replace staff already lost with costly much-needed enforcement powers, advice and support consultants in the future? Can he say whether the to the people of Britain, as they face the dire economic Treasury and the Cabinet Office have produced challenges brought about by this Government’s policies. the guidelines recommended by the PAC to ensure the retention of skilled staff, and has the commission followed 1.18 pm that guidance? When will its next chair be announced? Key stakeholders who responded to the Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the consultation on the future of the EHRC, which was Home Department (James Brokenshire): I congratulate called “Building a fairer Britain: Reform of the Equality the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra and Human Rights Commission”, made clear the need Osborne) on securing this debate, and on her commitment to maintain the EHRC’s funding and remit. However, to equality. I apologise for the fact that the Minister for the Government have so far refused to publish the Equalities is unable to be in Westminster Hall this results of the consultation in detail, despite freedom of afternoon to respond directly to the debate. information requests, parliamentary questions and an I know of the hard work done by the hon. Member in official letter to the Home Secretary from the general chairing the all-party group on equalities, and how secretary of the TUC. So I have another question for rigorous that group is in its approach to equality and the Minister. I am asking lots of questions, but that is fairness. Although we may have differences in relation because there are lots of questions to be answered. Will to a number of the issues that she has raised today, the he publish the responses to the Government consultation Government welcome the group’s rigour because we are on the future of the EHRC and, given the Home unequivocal in our commitment to equal treatment and Office’s report on its own website that the majority of equality of opportunity. That is why we have taken a respondents opposed the changes to the EHRC, will the number of significant steps since we were elected to Minister halt further cuts? tackle the barriers to equal opportunities and social There are many reasons for the EHRC to be proud of mobility. Although there will be differences between us its achievements in its first two years. In fact, those this afternoon, I think that there is common recognition achievements are too numerous to mention all of them of these important issues. in the time that I have available today. To mention just a However, on our own the Government will only ever couple of them, the EHRC has ensured protection make limited progress. If we are to stamp out prejudice against discrimination in employment for 6 million and give everyone the chance to achieve their potential, carers and exposed exploitation of migrant workers in we need concerted action by individuals, businesses and the meat-processing sector. voluntary organisations across our communities. We There are still many equality challenges facing Britain also need a strong and effective equality body and today that require the presence of an effective EHRC. national human rights institution to monitor our progress, The annual reports of the Tribunals Service show a make recommendations about how we can do better substantial increase in the number of claims lodged in and ensure the law is working as intended. employment tribunals since 2008-09. In addition, there Although I recognise the EHRC has struggled with a are planned cuts to legal aid worth £350 million, and number of issues over the past few years, I pay tribute there will be a £1.166 billion reduction in grants to local to several of its ordinary members of staff. However, government. At the same time, confidence in the voluntary the commission has struggled with its remit and to sector is at an all-time low, and a voluntary sector in demonstrate that it is delivering value for money. As the crisis cannot fill the vacuum left by funding cuts to local hon. Lady highlighted, its first three sets of accounts government grants, legal aid and the EHRC. A Government were qualified, attracting criticism from the Public Accounts who take equality seriously would be committed to a Committee. Its helpline and grants programmes were future-proofed EHRC. found to be poorly administered and poorly targeted. However, I acknowledge—as do many of the EHRC’s Its conciliation service was not cost-effective, costing natural allies—that it has not all been plain sailing for almost £5,000 per case—almost 10 times more than the EHRC. Its first three sets of accounts were qualified those of other mediation providers. by the National Audit Office, and obvious tensions between staff, senior management and the commissioners Sandra Osborne: I share the Minister’s disappointment have no doubt had an impact on the EHRC’s ability to that the Minister for Equalities is not here. She sat with achieve its goals. The Government have sought to attack me in the Committee that considered what became the and undermine the work of the EHRC, particularly Equality Act 2010. No matter what the previous because of financial management issues. However, Government wanted to do, she wanted to go further—how responsibility for those issues does not lie with those things have changed. However, will the Minister confirm who work on the helpline, the grants team and the the costs I mentioned, as well as the costs the Government mediation service, or in regional offices. Any such issues have paid for consultancies? should be sorted out, but they should not be used as an excuse to cut essential services to those who are in need James Brokenshire: We will no doubt come on to and to those who are suffering discrimination. consultancy. One challenge the commission has faced As I have already said, despite concerns about the relates to its use of interim staff, which has caused it EHRC’s performance, non-governmental organisations, some real issues. Over 2009-10, it spent almost £9 million— unions and others still want to see an effective, robust almost a third of its total pay bill—on an average of just 251WH Equality and Human Rights 24 APRIL 2012 Equality and Human Rights 252WH Commission Commission [James Brokenshire] expert advice and support on discrimination, which is tailored to their individual circumstances, from the new 85 interim staff, or just 16% of its total work force for equality advisory and support service that we are that year. There is nothing fair about that for the commissioning. She challenged me on whether there is taxpayer. a preferred bidder. No, there is not a preferred bidder. That is why our Government-wide review of non- The procurement process for a new equality advisory departmental public bodies concluded in October 2010 and support service is continuing and no preferred that the EHRC should be retained, but substantially bidder has been selected. The intention is that the reformed. At the same time, we announced in the spending process should be completed in May, with the new review that we would more than halve its budget, from service becoming operational in September. £55 million to £26.8 million. I know those cuts are a Central Government funding for legal advice on source of significant concern for the hon. Lady, but she discrimination will continue to be available through will recognise, although perhaps not agree, that the legal aid to ensure that limited public funds are targeted Government have had to deal with real challenges as a on those who need it most—the most serious cases in result of the budget deficit left by the previous Government. which legal advice or representation is justified. On Difficult decisions and reforms are needed to reduce conciliation, the Ministry of Justice website provides that deficit. information on, and links to, good quality, accessible Moreover, it is clear that even after the budget cuts, and effective mediation for individuals in England and the EHRC remains well-funded compared with similar Wales. In addition, a means-tested service for those who bodies in other countries. As an arm’s length body, it is cannot afford the fees is available through LawWorks. for the EHRC to decide how to manage the budget The hon. Lady will be pleased to know that similar reductions. The location of the EHRC’s offices and the provision is also available in Scotland. number of staff it employs at them are operational We have sought to impose tighter financial controls matters for the board and the management to decide and to stop waste. The operational independence of the after consultation with staff. If the EHRC is to deliver EHRC—a publicly funded body—should not be a maximum value for taxpayers’ money, however, it must justification for financial indiscipline. In March, a new focus on its core remit—the areas where it alone can framework document clarifying the relationship between add value. the EHRC and the Government was agreed between the Home Office and the EHRC board. The new framework Sandra Osborne: Does the Minister think it is for the document makes it clear that the EHRC will comply EHRC to decide completely to withdraw a service from with Government-wide rules on managing public money, Scotland and Wales? Surely, that is something the and with public expenditure controls, where they do not Government should be interested in. interfere with the EHRC’s ability to perform its statutory functions. In addition to establishing tighter financial controls, the new framework document sets out how the James Brokenshire: The hon. Lady will be aware of EHRC and Government will work together to increase the statutory functions imposed on the EHRC, as well the EHRC’s transparency to Parliament and the public as the duties it has in relation to devolution as a about how it operates. consequence, and it has underlined that it will continue to engage with local partners. Decisions on the deployment There have been signs of progress following action by and location of staff are obviously operational matters the Government. The EHRC has reduced its dependence for the EHRC, but it has specific legislative responsibilities on interim staff and now has fewer than 20 in post. It in relation to the devolved nations, such as the requirement plans to have no interim staff by 1 April 2013. It is to have specific decision-making committees for Scotland moving swiftly to deliver significant reductions to the and Wales. It remains committed to working with local cost of its corporate support functions through agreeing stakeholders. arrangements to share back-office services with other organisations. It has set out plans to rationalise its The hon. Lady will know that in March 2011 we set accommodation in the next 12 months, including moving out detailed proposals to reform the EHRC to achieve out of its expensive central London offices, which will the focus on its core remit by clarifying its remit; result in further savings of more than £3 million a year. stopping non-core activities and, where appropriate, In November last year, there was a significant sign of making alternative provision where those activities can progress when its first satisfactory set of accounts were be done better or more cost-effectively by alternative laid before Parliament. providers; and strengthening its governance and systems On the telephone helpline, the hon. Lady asked whether to provide greater transparency, accountability and value there had been a quality impact assessment. An equality for money. We received almost 1,000 responses to the policy statement was published by the Home Office in consultation. While I recognise that she is impatient for December, and the new service will provide a better the Government’s response, it is right that we take the service for people from disadvantaged groups than the time to consider the views expressed before announcing helpline it is replacing. We want the EHRC to become a a way forward, and we hope to respond to the consultation valued and respected national institution. To do so, it shortly. A number of non-legislative reforms are, however, must focus on the areas in which it alone can add value, already under way. and it must be able to demonstrate value for taxpayers’ I am aware of the hon. Lady’s concerns about the money. We will respond to the consultation shortly. We closure of the EHRC’s helpline and the ending of its will also appoint a new chief executive shortly. I hope grants programmes, and I will respond to them directly. that hon. Members in all parts of the House will I can reassure her that people will be able to receive support our plans. 253WH 24 APRIL 2012 Local Authorities (Procurement) 254WH

Local Authorities (Procurement) policy.I also acknowledge and accept that any procurement policy of an authority has to take into account European 1.30 pm law and other international agreements, as well as our own domestic law and, in particular, competition policy. John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): It is a pleasure to The size and value of the procurement is also a key serve under your chairmanship today, Ms Clark. issue. The Government, I am delighted to say, are committed to a localism agenda, which I fully support and welcome. Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): Does my A key element of the agenda involves freeing up local hon. Friend accept that European Union directives on government so that more decisions are made locally, public procurement are often gold-plated by local authorities ensuring that central Government funding is less and act as a barrier to the ability of local companies to prescriptive. Even now, we remain a highly centralised provide services for those authorities? country and more needs to be done to give greater freedom and more power to local authorities, giving John Stevenson: Yes, I do accept that. It probably them the ability to make decisions on local matters. happens at the national level as well. National Government With greater powers comes increased responsibility, should look at the issue and encourage local government and local authorities will have to rise to the challenge to follow what could be their example if they watered that the Government are offering them, which I believe down some of the policies coming out of Europe. they can do. Whether or not we think that they can rise to the occasion, we must realise the important role of Clearly and rightly, an authority that wants to make a local government in our country. We national politicians substantial purchase of goods or services must follow and national Government often underestimate the influence strict procedures, but there can and should be flexibility, and importance of local government. particularly for smaller purchases of goods and services As well as acknowledging that power needs to be by local authorities. I accept that there must be clear decentralised, the Government have recognised that the procedures in place for smaller procurement contracts, regions and large cities of the country can and should that there must be openness and transparency, and that be economic drivers. They can boost economic activity there must be no opportunity for inappropriate contracts. and bring prosperity and jobs to their own city or However, there are opportunities for local authorities locality. That concept not only applies to the large through their procurement policies to help to support urban centres, but can be of equal significance to the and to develop their local economy by procuring from smaller cities such as Carlisle and the smaller towns local businesses and thereby benefiting the wider local such as Stevenage. Even smaller towns and regions community. throughout Britain can also play a role. It is therefore clear, certainly to me, that local government has an David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): On procurement, extremely important role in ensuring the economic success surely we will cut off our nose to spite our face in many of our country, and not only in the success of its own cases. The whole idea is to drive the economy locally for local economy. local companies, but many of those companies miss out Part of that role is the recognition by councils that because of the very point that the hon. Gentleman has they are significant purchasers of goods and services. raised about European legislation. To some extent, they can influence the success or otherwise of local businesses. In the UK, government spends in John Stevenson: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. the region of £220 billion each year procuring goods Local economies and local businesses are the way to and services; £42 billion of that is spent by local authorities drive our economy. They are a key player, and we alone—almost 20% of the national procurement spend. underestimate their importance. We must take into account It is therefore abundantly clear that such procurement is the European dimension, and if that frustrates local of significant importance to local communities as well businesses, we must try to do something about it. as to local economies. When a local authority purchases I have taken the opportunity to look at Government goods and services from local businesses, it is spending advice on procurement policy, and the key point is that money in its own community, which benefits the local procurement must be value for money, normally through economy and local people. competition. I accept that that is generally the correct Take the example of a local business providing a approach, and will often be the one that authorities will service or a variety of goods to an authority. The follow, but how we interpret the definition of “value for business will employ local people to deliver the service money” is a much wider issue. My hon. Friend the or to provide the goods to the authority; those local Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) people employed by the business will, in turn, spend successfully navigated through Parliament the Public their wages in the same local economy, feeding directly Services (Social Value) Act 2012. It requires local authorities, into the general economic activity of the area. Such a when they enter into procurement contracts, to give virtuous cycle can have enormous benefits to a particular greater consideration to economic, social and/or town or city, especially the smaller ones. Again, good environmental well-being during the pre-procurement examples are my own city of Carlisle and somewhere stage. That is hugely welcome, and it is extremely important such as Stevenage. By the same token, procurement of that councils are made fully aware of the Act’s provisions, services outside an area might save the council some and the potential benefits for their areas. money in the short term, but could easily have a detrimental I firmly believe that it is incumbent on councils to effect on the local economy in the long term. take into consideration the impact that their procurement Before raising a number of issues with the Minister, I can have on their local economy, and the success or accept that proper procedures have to be in place and otherwise of local businesses, especially small ones. that appropriate rules need to be applied to any procurement Local government procurement can be beneficial in 255WH Local Authorities (Procurement)24 APRIL 2012 Local Authorities (Procurement) 256WH

[John Stevenson] had taken on apprentices, and that must surely be an important part of any local economy. giving local businesses the ability to grow and expand. That creates jobs, skills and investment in areas throughout John Stevenson: I completely agree. If the contracts the country, particularly those that are badly in need of from the local authority are with local businesses, those investment. However, a negative effect can be created as businesses clearly have an incentive to invest and create easily, and can go beyond having a direct impact on a jobs, apprenticeships and opportunities for future local business. It can spread into the wider community, generations. lowering employment, and preventing money from being I believe that local decisions that affect local communities recycled through the local economy, leading to less should be made by local people, away from central money being invested in businesses in that area. It is Government. If local authorities were to adopt a more clear how local government procurement has the ability flexible but robust procurement policy, local economies to create a much less vibrant and successful local economy throughout the country would reap enormous benefits. very quickly. It would also be beneficial to the national economy. I want to be parochial for a moment. In 2010, the university of Cumbria produced a paper entitled “The Impact of Local Authority Procurement on Local 1.42 pm Economies, The Case of Cumbria”. It found that increasing Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): It is a pleasure pressures on local authorities to be efficient and effective to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Clark. I thank in their use of public resources may contradict the need my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) to support local communities, particularly during a for securing such an important debate. period of economic downturn. The findings suggested The Minister is aware that more than £70 billion a that many small and medium-sized enterprises throughout year is spent by local government on the procurement Cumbria relied on local authority contracts for business of local goods and services, and even a small saving stability. Those interviewed throughout the county would make a huge financial difference. The Local confirmed that when a more formal approach to public Government Association is promoting the use of procurement is taken, coupled with a more defined procurement hubs, which can save councils millions of definition of “value for money”, SMEs become more pounds, and it should be congratulated on trying to vulnerable. develop tools to help councils come together to form To its credit, Cumbria county council’s procurement those groups and deliver better value for money. It also strategy aims to increase the proportion of suppliers promotes greater innovation: a subject close to my heart based in the county from 60% in 2010 to 65% in 2012. is that of using technology to promote jobs and growth. Collectively, the Cumbrian authorities have an annual I commend the development of e-auctions in particular. procurement spend in excess of £300 million, more than Those are electronic reverse tenders, in which potential half of which is spent locally. That sort of money can suppliers compete online in real time to win a contract. have a profound effect on any local economy, so I want Case studies show a 15% to 30% saving. to ensure that local authorities have the appropriate My constituency of Stevenage is in the county of power and tools to ensure that they can promote and Hertfordshire and the 10 district councils have joined support local business through their individual procurement up with the county council to create Supply Hertfordshire, policies. I therefore ask the Minister to consider three our own procurement hub. That has expanded to include key issues. the local NHS, the probation trust, Hertfordshire police, First, does he believe that the power of general some housing associations and a range of other competence for local authorities, which was granted by organisations. the Government in recent legislation, gives them sufficient additional powers to introduce or pursue a procurement John Stevenson: My hon. Friend raises an interesting policy that can examine the wider effects of their current point. I have been talking about local authorities, but he policy beyond best practice? Secondly, to what extent seems to be pursuing the line not only that local authorities does the Minister feel that the Public Services (Social have a role to play, but that other public bodies, such as Value) Act 2012, which was promoted by my hon. the NHS and police, can be equally significant in their Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris procurement policies and in effective local economies. White), is on the radar of local authorities; and how widely is it being used across the country? Finally, what Stephen McPartland: I completely agree with my measures does the Minister intend to pursue to help hon. Friend. In a county such as Hertfordshire, when with the issue and to ensure that local authorities have the police, probation service and NHS are brought in, policies that truly benefit their own locality? the amount of money that the Government are handing I want Carlisle to have a vibrant, local economy, over to be delivered locally runs into billions of pounds. creating jobs and prosperity for local people. Supply Hertfordshire’s ambition is to become the focal point for supplying to the public sector in Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): My hon. Friend Hertfordshire. That is an inspiring ambition and it has makes a powerful case, and the circumstances that he my full support. However, I am keen to ask the Minister outlines as affecting his part of Cumbria are replicated what support the Government can give to help turn that in my constituency, in northern Lincolnshire. Does he ambition into reality and provide jobs and growth for agree that the important thing about encouraging and my local economy. I am patron of an organisation supporting local businesses is that they transmit skills called biz4Biz, which is a collection of local businesses. to the younger generation and help with youth In Stevenage it is considered to be the voice of the small unemployment? Only last week I was at a business that business community. It is involved in a range of projects, 257WH Local Authorities (Procurement)24 APRIL 2012 Local Authorities (Procurement) 258WH but we are all keen to understand why it is difficult for I want to use the available time to set out what the small companies, including many with multi-million Government are doing to help the sector build on its pound turnovers, to get access to public sector contracts procurement practices and to refer hon. Members to locally. I have been approached by businesses from all the parliamentary answer that the Under-Secretary of over the country that are concerned they are missing State for Communities and Local Government, my out on huge opportunities locally that would boost jobs hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst and local economic growth because they cannot navigate (Robert Neill), made, in which he set out a table showing the labyrinth of public sector procurement locally. Some the procurement expenditure in the last financial year companies have informed me that they have missed out for each local authority in England. He also set out the on tenders a number of times, with very little feedback. steps that the Government and the Department are As a result they can no longer afford the time and cost taking. However, we are very much talking about a to their company of attempting another tender. project led by the Local Government Association in Other companies have been told that EU public England to develop a package of work to take forward procurement rules prevent them from even applying in the agenda. the first place. I know that those EU rules are gold-plated Overall, as my hon. Friends have pointed out, the locally at the expense of local companies, but that leads Government are aiming to put councils and communities to a loss of opportunity, particularly for the younger back in control of their own destinies through the members of our community trying to get their first job devolution of power and control over budgets to councils. and first step on the road to a career. We can change Local authorities are therefore increasingly responsible that and we can make a difference. The Government are for taking their own procurement decisions, subject to giving local people more powers under the Localism the requirements of best value legislation and the EU Act 2011, but we must go further. and UK regulatory framework. Will the Minister consider asking local authorities to sign up to the principle that they, like the Government, There is no doubt that difficulties are faced by local should aspire to give 25% of their contracts to small contractors seeking to win contracts. In particular, smaller businesses? In the case of local government, it would contractors may find that they are squeezed out, as has have to aspire to give 25% of its contracts to small been mentioned. In fact, the EU procurement rules are businesses in the locality. Will he go further and urge not nearly as severe or draconian as is often suggested. local authorities to publish all successful tenders on Nevertheless, they are a constraint. their website, so that companies that do not succeed can Value-for-money pressures can be balanced legitimately benchmark their own bid against that of the successful and legally by social value and environmental value. It bidder? They could then learn from their mistakes or is entirely right, legitimate and proper for those seeking possibly even challenge the local authority to have tenders to set out such requirements in the tender another look into it under the powers contained in the process. Local authorities can therefore use the procurement Localism Act. rules to promote local enterprise, and the Local Government Association’s guidance “Buying into communities” is 1.46 pm designed to help local authorities do that within the EU procurement rules. It helps councillors and officers in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for authorities to see how other authorities have utilised the Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): rules to get the outcomes they want from their public It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, spending. I therefore commend it to hon. Members, and Ms Clark. My congratulations to my hon. Friends the I invite them to make sure that their local authorities Members for Carlisle (John Stevenson) and for Stevenage are fully aware of the advice and support it offers. (Stephen McPartland) for their contributions. I particularly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle Good procurement practice by authorities can help on securing the debate. to promote opportunities for local small and medium-sized I am sure that hon. Members will be pleased, but not enterprises, helping them to bid for all or a part of a surprised, to hear that the Government are as keen as contract and to develop local skills. We heard from my my hon. Friends to ensure that local government spends hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage about the work its money as effectively as possible. It is interesting that Hertfordshire is doing, and we heard about Cumbria several different figures for that have been mentioned: from my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle. my brief says that the figure is £62 billion a year. Essex county council has recently done work highlighting Whatever the amount is, it is certainly an awful lot of how its golden triangle of procurement has utilised money and, clearly, there is significant scope for it to be savings of £120 million per year and created about 200 spent better. That can help to save taxpayers’ money, apprenticeships. The Federation of Small Businesses reduce the overall deficit we face and, in many cases, has acknowledged that that has improved access to lead to local authorities commissioning better and more council contracts. It is clear that SMEs are a key ingredient appropriate front-line services. in strong local economic growth, and public procurement I agree with my hon. Friends that local government is just one way in which an authority can help those in has a good record. Indeed, if one were to speak to local their area to grow. That said, it is a surprise and a government representatives, they would be quick to disappointment that local firms still regularly mention point to various studies that suggest that their value for obstacles such as pre-qualification questionnaires and money is, on the whole, better than central Government’s duplicate tenders, as well as the difficulty of discussing value for money. I do not want to convey the wrong forward work with local authorities and, therefore, of impression in my contribution by suggesting anything planning a sensible work stream and a sensible bidding different. strategy. 259WH Local Authorities (Procurement)24 APRIL 2012 Local Authorities (Procurement) 260WH

[Andrew Stunell] reasonableness. As my hon. Friend rightly pointed out, we could not have a wild west contracting situation. It is Recently, therefore, the Cabinet Office has announced absolutely right and proper that due process should be a series of actions it will take to help SMEs get a greater followed, but within that councils have a great deal of percentage of contracts. One pledge involves reducing discretion about how they proceed. or removing the necessity for pre-qualification My hon. Friend asked whether local authorities were questionnaires, particularly where they are for work sufficiently aware of the legislation of my hon. Friend below £100,000. There is no sensible reason why an the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White). SME bidder would have to fill out multiple questionnaires Perhaps the fact that he has had to bring the matter to several times over to compete for procurements, and this Chamber today suggests that they are not. I am such things do not give the impression that councils sure that he and I will want to contribute to a process of welcome SMEs’ business and trade. Aside from pointing increasing awareness. Moreover, let me draw his attention out that such PQQs are unnecessary below £100,000, to the work of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of the Cabinet Office has produced its own model, four-page State for Communities and Local Government in notifying PQQ, which can be used instead of the often far too councils about some of the opportunities that exist in elaborate examples used by tenderers. their partnerships with the voluntary and community My hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage drew sector. Again, that underlines the point that they should attention to the electronic tendering that takes place in be taking into account not just short-term, straightforward Hertfordshire. He also mentioned the biz4Biz scheme. cost savings but the wider social and environmental That is another area where local authorities can play a impact of their decisions. helpful part in supporting local small businesses. My Beyond Cumbria, the north-west procurement portal local authority, Stockport, organises business-to-business is a good example of how the region is helping businesses fairs in the town hall, where large local enterprises are to identify contracts more easily. At a quick look, there put in touch with small ones, and trade links are established. are numerous opportunities there, broken down by council That is not about spending public money; it is about the areas and sub-regions, and the portal links to other council accepting that it has a role and some responsibility portals around the country. Of course that is producing for ensuring that large companies in the area—or small results in many places. companies for that matter—look first to the local providers Through the efforts that have been made with the of services before they look further afield. north-west portal, it has been possible for the 10 authorities The Local Government Association is working with in the Association of Greater Manchester Authorities, the Federation of Small Businesses and with individual including mine, Stockport, to establish that they spend authorities to highlight exactly how procurement can be jointly £2.5 billion a year, that £300 million of that simplified and access broadened. There is, therefore, a spend is different authorities spending with common lot of good practice and quite a lot of good understanding. suppliers, and that they are redirecting what they do Sometimes, procurement officers and councillors say such that 56% of their spend is now with providers that they cannot do such things because of EU rules or based within the 10 local authorities and 69% of what this or that piece of legislation, but quite a lot of what is they spend is spent with companies within the north-west. said in those circumstances is purely and simply mythology. I am sure that there is further to go for many local That brings me to the questions that my hon. Friend authorities, but that gives an indication of what can be the Member for Carlisle raised about whether the new achieved when local authorities put their heads together provision in the Localism Act to give every local authority and work at it hard. a general power of competence allows them to deliver a My hon. Friend’s third question was whether I would better performance on procurement. The answer to that be forcing local authorities to do things— is a straightforward yes. The general power of competence allows any local authority to do anything that an individual 2pm can do, which gives them a great deal of flexibility. Of Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order course, they must obey the law and have regard to No. 10(11)). 35WS Written Ministerial Statements24 APRIL 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS Written Ministerial TRANSPORT

Statements Parliamentary Written Answer (Correction)

Tuesday 24 April 2012 The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I regret to inform the House that there was an inaccuracy in the answer I gave to FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE parliamentary question 98207 on 5 March, Official Report, column 411W and subsequent comments made by the Secretary of State for Transport in debates held Malawi on 8 March, Official Report, column 1035 and 23 March, Official Report, column 1049 about how many miles of railway track were electrified between May 1997 and The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth May 2010. Affairs (Mr William Hague): President Bingu wa Mutharika The correct answer is approximately nine route miles of Malawi died of a cardiac arrest on 5 April. Vice-President were electrified between May 1997 and May 2010, not Joyce Banda was declared President on 7 April, following 39 route miles as previously stated. This total does not due constitutional process. President Banda has declared include newly constructed railways. a period of 30 days of mourning for the late President. In her inauguration speech President Banda emphasised the need to focus immediately on mourning President Mutharika, and for healing and reconciliation and encouraged the people of Malawi to work together to WORK AND PENSIONS address the many challenges that face the country. The President has continued this theme, and made it clear that her top priorities include getting back on track Social Fund Budgeting Loans with the IMF and normalising relations with the UK. In my statements to the House of 28 April, Official Report, column 13WS and 14 July 2011, Official Report, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions column 46WS, I set out the Government’s response to (Steve Webb): On 6 December 2010 I announced that in the Government of Malawi’s unwarranted decision to the forthcoming Welfare Reform Bill, we intended to expel the British high commissioner. In both of those introduce legislation to make social fund budgeting statements, I told the House that, while the UK would loans available to help families to buy maternity items or maintain formal diplomatic relations with Malawi, I items for a new baby or to help them towards meeting would not appoint a new high commissioner at that some of the costs of a relative’s funeral. time. I am pleased to report that these changes to budgeting I have now decided that the time is right to appoint a loans will be implemented from 8 May 2012 and will new high commissioner to Malawi. The Prime Minister apply to all applications made from this date. This help has written to the President to convey this decision to will be available in addition to the Sure Start maternity her and a copy of this letter will be placed in the Library grant and the social fund funeral payment. of the House. I will instruct the new high commissioner, I will place a copy of the new direction covering these once appointed, to monitor developments in Malawi changes to social fund budgeting loans in the House closely. Library later today.

3P Petitions24 APRIL 2012 Petitions 4P

Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities Petition and Local Government: The quasi-judicial role of the Secretary of State for Tuesday 24 April 2012 Communities and Local Government in planning means that he cannot comment on particular planning cases. However, the Government recognise that there has been OBSERVATIONS concern about planning policy on Traveller sites. We want to see fair play, with everyone treated even-handedly. Since this petition was presented, the Government COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT published on 23 March their new planning policy for Traveller sites. Local planning authorities drafting local Prevention of Development on Green Belt Land plans, or taking decisions on planning applications, are The Petition of residents of Bournemouth, under a statutory duty to have regard to this policy, where relevant. Declares that the Petitioners are opposed to the proposed development of three permanent sites for Gypsies and The new policy makes clear that Traveller sites (temporary Travellers in Strouden, Throop and Muscliff; that the or permanent) in the green belt are inappropriate Petitioners believe that Bournemouth has already more development. This means that such development should than adequately contributed to Dorset’s housing numbers; not be approved except in very special circumstances. and that this would be an inappropriate use of much The Government’s view is that the protections for the treasured greenbelt land and open space. green belt, set out in the new national planning policy The Petitioners therefore request that the House of framework and the planning policy for Traveller sites, Commons urges the Government to bring forward are stringent and robust, and that planning authorities legislation to strengthen the powers of local councils to do not need new legal powers to protect green belt land. allow them to prevent residential developments from Through the proposed abolition of regional strategies being built on the greenbelt. and housing targets, we would remove the top down pressure to review and delete green belt boundaries. The And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Government have put decisions about new development Mr Tobias Ellwood, Official Report, 22 March 2012; back into the hands of local authorities, in consultation Vol. 542, c. 1036.] with their communities, whilst ensuring the protection [P001014] of green belt.

769W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 770W

Warfare and an Anti-Submarine role. The suite of weapons Written Answers to each will carry is specific to the variant and is based on these roles. Questions Military Bases: Carbon Emissions

Tuesday 24 April 2012 Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the level of carbon dioxide emissions from his Department’s military establishments (a) in the UK and (b) abroad DEFENCE in each year since 2009. [104290]

Afghanistan Mr Robathan: Carbon emissions from Ministry of Defence (MOD) military establishments (including office Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for buildings, training areas, naval bases, educational sites, Defence what the estimated cost of UK operations in storage facilities and airfields) are shown in the following Afghanistan has been to date. [104915] table. Data were collated and reported for the MOD as a whole and are not split between UK and overseas Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 23 April 2012]: establishments. We estimate that, as at 31 March 2012, the net additional Carbon emissions cost of military operations in Afghanistan since 2001-02 tCO2 has been some £17 billion. 2008-09 1,848,700 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft 2009-10 1,720,600 2010-11 1,683,900 Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Emissions are calculated each year from the total Defence pursuant to the answer of 5 September 2011, energy consumption, in kWh, of all fuel types for all Official Report, column 86W, on Joint Strike Fighter MOD activities worldwide. Operational theatres, trading Aircraft, how much has been spent on the Joint Strike fund agencies (except DSTL) and non-departmental Fighter in each cost category to date. [101948] public bodies are excluded.

Peter Luff: The total expenditure on the Joint Strike Official Secrets Fighter is £1,825 million, being £1,495 million up to and including the development phase with a further Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for £330 million on the production phase. Defence whether any person employed by (a) his Department, (b) the agencies and non-departmental Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence public bodies for which his Department is responsible pursuant to the answer of 12 March 2012, Official and (c) any private firms contracted by his Report, column 9W, on the Joint Strike Fighter aircraft, Department is bound by any part of the Official what the through-life costs were for the carrier variant Secrets Act. [104834] Joint Strike Fighter in 2011-12; what the projected costs are for 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. Mr Robathan: Personnel in the Ministry of Defence [102411] (MOD), its agencies and Crown Servants in non- departmental public bodies are bound by the Official Peter Luff: We are currently finalising the 2012-13 Secrets Act, as are employees of private firms contracted Budget and balancing the Equipment Plan. As part of by the MOD. this process we are reviewing all programmes, including elements of the Carrier Strike Programme, to validate Research costs and ensure risks are properly managed. The Defence Secretary expects to announce the outcome of this process to Parliament soon. Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what proportion of his Department’s research Lynx Helicopters and development expenditure in 2009-10 and 2010-11 was spent (a) within his Department excluding the Defence, Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL), Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) by DSTL, (c) with Qinetiq, (d) with UK Defence whether he plans to arm the Army’s variant of universities, (e) with UK small and medium-sized the Wildcat with (i) Sting Ray and (ii) Brimstone. enterprises, (f) with other UK companies and (g) with [103740] overseas-based organisations. [102619]

Peter Luff [holding answer 18 April 2012]: I refer the Peter Luff: In 2009-10, the MOD research and hon. Member to the answer I gave him on 16 April development expenditure was approximately: 2012, Official Report, column 78W. The Army variant of the Lynx Wildcat will perform a range of tasks (i) 16% by DSTL including reconnaissance, command and control, force (ii) Less than 1% with UK universities protection and light transport. The role of the Maritime (ii) 61% with other UK companies Variant will include, but is not limited to, Anti-Surface (iv) 23% with overseas based organisations 771W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 772W

In 2010-11, the MOD research and development another naval vessel, (c) a private vessel and (d) a expenditure was approximately: merchant vessel have taken place in each year since (i) 14% by DSTL 2009; [104288] (ii) Less than 1% with UK universities (2) what grounding incidents involving UK nuclear- (iii) 75% with other UK companies powered submarines have taken place in each year (iv) 11% with overseas based organisations since 2009. [104289] The separation of these figures into research and Nick Harvey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I development and the apportionment to the other categories gave him on 2 November 2010, Official Report, column requested are not held centrally and could be provided 693W and on 30 November 2010, Official Report, column only at disproportionate cost. 747W. There have been no other grounding incidents or collisions involving UK nuclear-powered submarines Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for since. Defence pursuant to the answers of 10 October 2011, Official Report, columns 48-50W, on departmental research, for what reason the figures given in each LEADER OF THE HOUSE answer for research expenditure by his Department for each of the last five years differ between the two Electronic Government: Petitions Answers. [104994] Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Leader of the House Peter Luff [holding answer 23 April 2012]: The Ministry how many of the e-petitions with 100,000 signatures or of Defence (MOD) has a significant spend on development, more on the Government’s e-petitions website have which we regard as different from research. A definition been debated in Parliament; and if he will make a of both was in my previous answer dated 10 October statement. [105134] 2011, Official Report, column 48W. The difference in the two sets of figures is that one was the combination Sir George Young: Of the 10 e-petitions which have of total departmental expenditure on research and reached 100,000 signatures or more, eight have been development combined, and the other was the total debated in the House of Commons. The Government’s departmental expenditure on research only; the latter e-petitions website has helped connect thousands of provided to add clarity against the figures requested for people with Parliament, and triggered debates which the Science and Technology Programme expenditure. have been among the best-attended and widely-watched There have been revisions to the 2009-10 figures due of this Session. to improved data coverage of research and development Written Questions: Government Responses spend in top level budgets other than those covered in the main survey by Defence Analytical Services and Chris Bryant: To ask the Leader of the House if he Advice (DASA). The 2010-11 figures for research and will take steps to allow questions tabled by hon. development are also now available. Members for written answer to be carried over to the The updated figures for departmental expenditure on 2012-13 Session. [105356] research and development as a total, and the development expenditure and that for research shown separately are Sir George Young: No; I have no plans to bring as follows: forward proposals to vary the established practice under successive Administrations. £ million Net MOD research and Total MOD Total MOD development development research ATTORNEY-GENERAL Financial year expenditure expenditure expenditure Vacancies 2009-10 11,752 11,177 1575 2010-11 1,560 1,026 534 Mr Thomas: To ask the Attorney-General how many 1 Revised. job vacancies there were for (a) staff posts and (b) senior Civil Service posts in the Law Officers’ Submarines: Accidents Departments on 31 March (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012; and if he will make a statement. [104600] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what collisions involving a UK nuclear- The Solicitor-General: The information requested is powered submarine and (a) another submarine, (b) contained in the following table.

AGO HMCPSI TSOL SFO CPS

Vacancies as at 31 March each year Staff SCS Staff SCS Staff SCS Staff SCS Staff SCS

2010 2 0 l 0 2 0 43 0 129 1

2011 0 0 8- 0 5 0 46 0 27 0

2012 0 0 13 0 15 0 51 4 141 0 773W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 774W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE should the delivery of any community energy saving programme extend beyond December 2012. [104725] Addison Lee Gregory Barker: The Community Energy Saving Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Programme (CESP) ends on 31 December 2012 and will Energy and Climate Change what meetings (a) be followed by the energy company obligation (ECO). Ministers, (b) special advisers and (c) officials in his The Government have no intention of extending the Department have had with John Griffin of Addison deadline for achievement of the targets under CERT Lee since 12 May 2010. [105111] and CESP beyond the end of this year. To help the transition between the schemes it is planned that the Gregory Barker: Details of meetings between Ministers ECO should come into effect from October this year. and external organisations are published quarterly on the departmental website at: Where work on a CESP scheme is completed after 31 December 2012 it can be used to help meet a company’s http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/accesstoinform/ registers/ministermtgs/ministermtgs.aspx obligation under the ECO, as long as the measures concerned would also qualify under the ECO. Information for the quarter since October 2011 will be published in due course. Legal Costs The departmental special advisers have held no such meetings. Details of meetings between the Permanent Secretary Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and external organisations are published quarterly on and Climate Change how much his Department spent the departmental website at: on fees for legal work in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [104559] http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/accesstoinform/ registers/permsec_mtgs/permsec_mtgs.aspx Information for the quarter since October 2011 will Gregory Barker: The information asked for cannot be be published in due course. given without incurring disproportionate cost. Information on meetings between officials in my However, some information covering sums above £500 Department and John Griffin of Addison Lee could be paid for certain items of legal work between April 2010 obtained only at disproportionate cost. and February 2012 is available on the DECC website at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/accesstoinform/ Electricity expenditure/spend_over_500/spend_over 500.aspx

Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Meters Energy and Climate Change if he will revise the forward projections to 2027 of carbon emission factors for electricity for the purposes of the Standard Mark Pawsey: To ask the Secretary of State for Assessment Procedure based on the announcement in Energy and Climate Change how many cases involving the Budget Statement that gas will be the largest single smart meters the Energy Ombudsman has dealt with in source of electricity in the coming years. [103390] the last 12 months. [104680]

Charles Hendry: DECC has recently consulted on an Charles Hendry: The energy ombudsman received 22 amended methodology for estimating the carbon emission cases involving smart meters during the period 1 April factors that will be used to inform the Standard Assessment 2011 to 19 April 2012. Of these, five complainants Procedure (SAP) and the other National Calculation failed to return the complaint form to the ombudsman’s Methodologies. The consultation closed on 28 March office and one was outside the ombudsman’s terms of and responses are currently being considered. Initial reference. Of the remaining 16 cases, eight have been indications are that a clear majority of respondents concluded and eight are still in process. supported the proposal to use forward projections that look out to 2016 rather than into the 2020s. The Meters: Rural Areas Government will set out their conclusions as a result of this consultation in due course. Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Energy: Billing and Climate Change what discussions he has had with Ministers in the Welsh Government on the Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for implementation of smart meter roll-out in rural areas. Energy and Climate Change whether his Department [105054] has made an estimate of the number of households that are in credit with their energy supplier. [104499] Charles Hendry: Regular meetings are held at ministerial and official level to discuss a range of energy and Gregory Barker: DECC does not hold any information climate change issues. on whether customer energy supply accounts are in credit. The Government will place regulatory obligations on energy suppliers that will require them to take all reasonable Energy: Conservation steps to install smart meters for all their domestic and smaller non-domestic customers by the completion date Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for in 2019. This obligation will apply equally to customers Energy and Climate Change what plans are in place in rural areas as to others. 775W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 776W

This policy has been informed by extensive formal We understand importance of a bankable CFD contract and informal consultation with stakeholders, including and we are working with industry to ensure that the with the Welsh Government. On 5 April we published payment model for the contracts for difference provides four further consultation documents, seeking views on them with the required level of certainty. We will set out a Consumer Engagement Strategy, the policy framework more detail on the proposed model in a draft CFD for Data Access and Privacy, the Smart Energy Code Operational Framework this spring. and the Data and Communications Company licence conditions. Public Consultation

Nuclear Power Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether his Department collects the IP addresses of online respondents to its Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for consultations. [104056] Energy and Climate Change from what sources other than the public purse he intends that the Contract for Gregory Barker: IP addresses are collected only where Difference support for new nuclear will be financed. respondents use DECC’s online consultation system. [104605] Not all of DECC’s consultations use this facility, and where the system is used other options for responding Charles Hendry [holding answer 23 April 2012]: The are also available. CfD is a market based mechanism that aims to support all sources of low carbon generation, including nuclear, with no contribution from the public purse. Low carbon generators with a Contract for Difference will earn HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION money from selling electricity in the market and then either receive a further top-up payment if the electricity Listed Buildings price is below the CfD strike price, or repay suppliers if the electricity price is above the strike price. Suppliers Mr Gray: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, will pass on these costs to customers. The details of this Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of will be set out in the forthcoming energy bill and Commons Commission, how many listed buildings are associated documents. on the Parliamentary Estate; what budgeted plans there are for alterations to such buildings; and what estimate Official Secrets the House of Commons Commission has made on the increase in costs forecast as a result of the proposed Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for application of VAT to alterations to listed buildings. Energy and Climate Change whether any person [105213] employed by (a) his Department, (b) the agencies and non-departmental public bodies for which his John Thurso: The House of Commons owns 11 listed Department is responsible and (c) any private firms buildings on the Parliamentary Estate and has one contracted by his Department is bound by any part of building (the Palace of Westminster) shared with the House of Lords. The following table shows the listed the Official Secrets Act. [104837] status and forecast expenditure for each of these buildings Gregory Barker: All Crown servants and Government for the next three years. The figures are planned expenditure contractors (as defined by sections 12(1) and 12(2) of and are subject to the submission and approval of the Official Secrets Act 1989) are subject to the requirements business cases. Expenditure includes all works planned of the Official Secrets Act. Upon entering the Department, by the Parliamentary Estates Directorate and includes all staff are made aware that they are bound by the VAT where appropriate. The figures include both capital terms of the Official Secrets Act and that their actions and resource spending, and include contributions by resulting in unauthorised disclosure of official information the House of Lords towards shared costs. may result in legal proceedings being taken against £000 them. Planned expenditure Listed Procurement Building status 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15

Palace of Grade 1 34,197 39,548 49,716 Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for Westminster Energy and Climate Change what assessment his Norman Shaw South Grade II* 91 1,062 394 Department has made of the (a) best mechanisms, (b) Norman Shaw North Grade 1 21 134 0 extent of funding required and (c) likeliness of a 1 Parliament Street Grade II 622 600 13,800 referral to the Classification Committee of the Office (inc. 10-12 Bridge Street) for National Statistics as a possible levy mechanism for 1 Derby Gate Grade II* 63 1,262 0 a counter party fund set up to implement contracts for 1 Canon Row Grade II* 766 10,521 600 difference. [105303] 53 Parliament Street Grade II 3,889 3,405 0 2 Parliament Street Grade II* 0 0 0 Gregory Barker: DECC have considered a number of 2a Canon Row Grade II* 0 0 0 mechanisms through which to settle the payments due 2b Canon Row Grade II* 0 0 0 under the Contract for Difference, including the use of 3 Parliament Street Grade II* 0 0 0 levies, obligations and industry codes, and the implications 4 Canon Row Grade II* 0 0 0 for classification. 777W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 778W

These properties were not previously zero rated as Mrs Villiers: Air ambulance flights come within the they are not definition of commercial air transport. They have to “intended for use solely for a relevant charitable purpose” comply with the requirements applicable to all commercial (see Section 14.7, HMRC Notice 708) nor do they air transport operation. In addition, helicopter emergency qualify as a relevant residential purpose within the medical services require a specific approval from the meaning of Section 14.6 of HMRC Notice 708. The Civil Aviation Authority.There are no specific requirements changes to VAT application will therefore not have any relating to night flights by air ambulances. effect on forecast costs. Railways: Disability

Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for HOME DEPARTMENT Transport what progress she has made on requiring all Kidnapping: Children rail vehicles to comply with disability access requirements; and whether she expects such Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the compliance to be achieved by her 2020 target. [105058] Home Department how many abductions and kidnappings of children were recorded by police forces Norman Baker: Over 6,600 rail vehicles are in public in England and Wales in the last year for which data transport use which were built or have been fully refurbished are available. [105126] to modern access standards. This includes the majority of trams and almost half of all trains. Further details Nick Herbert: The police recorded crime data held by can be found on the Department’s website at: the Home Office shows that there were 545 recorded http://assets.dft.gov.uk/topics/rail/rail-vehicles/accessibility- offences of child abduction in England and Wales in the standards.xls 12 months to December 2011. These are offences under It is for the rail industry to ensure that all passenger sections 1 and 2 of the Child Abduction Act 1984 (as vehicles are accessible by the 2020 legal deadline. The amended by the Children’s Act 1989). Government remain committed to this date. The Where there is evidence that a child under 16 has Department has given the industry clarity by indicating been taken away unwillingly by the use of force (or where work remains outstanding and reminding bidders fraud by another person), recording a common law of their obligations during the current franchise reletting offence of kidnapping will be considered. However, programmes. from the recorded crime statistics it is not possible to identify the age of the victim in kidnapping offences. Railways: Tickets Police: Corruption Nigel Mills: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) how many rail ticket offices were closed Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for the between May 2005 and May 2010; [103088] Home Department (1) if she will investigate whether police corruption hampered the investigation of the (2) how many rail ticket office closures were murder of Stephen Lawrence; and if she will make a approved by Ministers in her Department between [103089] statement; [99352] May 2005 and May 2010. (2) what discussions she has had with the Norman Baker: Ministers in the last Administration Metropolitan Police and the Independent Police approved reductions in ticket office opening hours under Complaints Commission on whether police corruption the Minor and Major Change procedures at approximately hampered the investigation of the murder of Stephen 300 stations. They approved closures of rail ticket offices Lawrence; and if she will make a statement; [99353] between May 2005 and May 2010 as part of schemes (3) if she will discuss with Sir William Macpherson which also led to the station being closed for use, as ways to ensure there is adequate public scrutiny of follows: whether police corruption hampered the investigation As part of the construction of Liverpool South Parkway of the murder of Stephen Lawrence; and if she will station, which has a ticket office, the stations and ticket offices at make a statement. [99354] Allerton and Garston stations were closed. James Brokenshire [holding answer 12 March 2012]: As part of the Thameslink Programme, the station and ticket office at Kings Cross Thameslink was closed and replaced by a The allegations of police corruption in the investigation new station with ticket office at St Pancras International. into Stephen Lawrence’s murder have been brought to To enable the construction of a new Docklands Light Railway the attention of the Secretary of State for the Home line, the stations and ticket offices at North Woolwich, Silvertown Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for and Custom House were closed. Maidenhead (Mrs May). She is currently considering how to respond. Rescue Services

Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for TRANSPORT Transport what effect the reorganisation of the Coastguard Service will have on the treatment of Night Flying leisure craft. [105148]

Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning: As in my answer of 12 March 2012, Transport what restrictions are imposed on night flying Official Report, column 23W, the modernisation of Her by the Air Ambulance Service; and if she will make a Majesty’s Coastguard will not adversely affect the treatment statement. [105074] of leisure craft. 779W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 780W

Traffic Orders UK imports of live animals (excluding those specified as for breeding), 2011 2011 Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Country of Transport what estimate she has made of the level of Type dispatch £000 Head (thousand) expenditure on advertising traffic orders in (a) Sheep total <0.5 <0.5 (b) (c) England, Yorkshire and Leeds North West Note: constituency. [104933] 2011 data is subject to amendments. Source: Norman Baker: The consultation on amending HM Revenue and Customs requirements placed on traffic authorities when they Data prepared by Trade Statistics, Economics and Statistics Programme, DEFRA propose and make temporary and permanent traffic To put these figures into context, the total UK slaughter orders has now closed. figures in 2011 were 915.76 million head for poultry, The consultation paper made reference to a report 10.06 million head for pigs, 2.84 million head for cattle published by the UK Network Management Board and and 14.48 million head for sheep. It is estimated that the results of a survey carried out in 2010 among traffic imports accounted for approximately 6% of total UK authorities about money spent on local newspaper slaughter of pigs, 1% of cattle and less than 1% of both advertising of traffic orders. No local authorities in poultry and sheep. Yorkshire or Leeds responded to the survey, so we have Note that the majority of livestock imports into the no information on their specific spend. However, the UK from the Republic of Ireland are where finished report considered responses received and estimated that animals have been moved across the border into Northern at that time that £22.3 million was being spent annually Ireland for immediate slaughter. in England on advertising traffic orders. This figure was adjusted to £20 million for consultation purposes due to Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for changes that have already been made by the Highways Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she Agency, which has already significantly reduced its has taken to eradicate unnecessary suffering by animals spend in this area. transported to the UK for slaughter. [104276] Mr Paice: The Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency undertakes a risk based inspection ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS regime on imports of livestock destined for slaughter. Local authorities may also undertake inspections of Animal Welfare such import consignments. Any welfare infringement, including any case of unnecessary suffering, will result Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for in the appropriate and proportionate regulatory or Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many live enforcement action being taken, which may include animals were transported to the UK for slaughter in prosecution. the latest period for which figures are available. Animal Welfare: Slaughterhouses [104277] Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: Trade statistics as gathered by HM Revenue Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the and Customs are classified such that it is not always answer to the hon. Member for Newport West of clear whether imported live animals are destined for 14 December 2011, Official Report, column 787W, on slaughter or for the breeding herd/flock. animal welfare: slaughterhouses, if she will make it Removing the cases where the animal is obviously mandatory to install CCTV in slaughterhouses. intended for further breeding our best estimates for [104920] 2011 are as follows: Mr Paice: Our review of the role CCTV can play in UK imports of live animals (excluding those specified as for breeding), 2011 providing inconspicuous monitoring in slaughterhouses, 2011 including consideration of whether CCTV should be Country of Type dispatch £000 Head (thousand) made mandatory, is continuing. We will be consulting on proposals to implement EC Regulation 1099/2009 Poultry Irish Republic 2,327 2,755 on the protection of animals at killing, in England, over France <0.5 <0.5 the next few months. This will include consideration of Poultry total 2,327 2,755 the role CCTV can play in meeting the new monitoring arrangements required by Regulation 1099/2009.

Pigs Irish Republic 68,483 683 Badgers Denmark 741 9 Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State France 170 2 for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what Netherlands 49 1 discussions she has had with the National Farmers Pigs total 69,443 696 Union on the financial implications of cage-trapping badgers. [103985] Cattle/calves Irish Republic 25,480 29 Mr Paice: The estimated costs and benefits for the Netherlands 3 <0.5 two pilot badger culling areas are set out in our published Cattle/calves 25,483 29 Impact Assessment which is available on the DEFRA total website: http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/ Sheep Irish Republic <0.5 <0.5 atoz/tb/documents/bovine-tb-impact-assessment.pdf 781W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 782W

This includes the Government’s cost estimates for horses and foals born after 1 July 2009 must also be both controlled shooting and cage-trapping and shooting. micro-chipped. Primary enforcement responsibility lies The farming industry has indicated that it believes it with local authorities. could deliver culling more cost-effectively. Pigs: Animal Welfare Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for consider altering her Department’s approach to badger Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what plans culling to require cage-trapping to be part of the she has to require pig farmers to reduce the gaps in process. [103986] slatted floors to comply with new regulations; [103651] (2) what assessment she has made of the potential Mr Paice: Both cage-trapping and shooting and cost to pig farmers of reducing the gaps in slatted controlled shooting will be permitted under a badger floors in order to comply with new regulations; control licence and it is likely that a licensee will use a [103652] mixture of both methods to carry out an effective cull. (3) what recent discussions she has had with representatives of the pig industry about proposed Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control changes to the size of the gaps in slatted floors. [103653] Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Mr Paice: I met with the pig industry in February to she has made of the cost to farmers and to the public discuss the provisions in the pig welfare Council directive purse of vaccinating for bovine tuberculosis as 2008/120/EC which apply to all holdings from 1 January opposed to culling. [104518] 2013. The UK is already fully compliant with the key provision of the directive, namely the Sows Stalls ban. Mr Paice: Estimates for the costs and benefits of We are gathering information on the other technical different options, including vaccinating badgers, were provisions, such as gap widths used in concrete slatted published in the 2010 consultation stage impact assessment flooring, in preparation for further discussions with the available on the DEFRA website: pig industry. http://archive.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/tb-control- measures/100915-tb-control-measures-annexf.pdf Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions she has had with her European Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment counterparts on legislation banning sow stalls across she has made of the unit cost of badger vaccinations the EU. [105010] for the prevention of bovine tuberculosis. [104519] Mr Paice: Since the end of last year, the sow stall ban Mr Paice: The wholesale price of the injectable badger has been discussed on a number of occasions in Brussels vaccine (BadgerBCG) is currently £16.52 (plus VAT) at meetings of the Standing Committee on the Food per dose. However, this is only one element of the full Chain and Animal Health and at a meeting of chief cost of vaccinating badgers by injection, which includes veterinary officers. It is also on the agenda of this surveying, trapping and vaccination by a trained and month’s Agriculture and Fisheries Council meeting on licensed individual. The full economic costs of vaccination 26-27 April. The Commission is also seeking data on were included in the 2010 consultation stage impact member states’ progress in implementing the ban. assessment available on the DEFRA website: Over the coming months we will continue to discuss http://archive.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/tb-control- progress with the implementation of the sow stall ban, measures/100915-tb-control-measures-annexf.pdf with the Commission, and our European colleagues to keep the pressure up, so all countries meet the European Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for ban on sow stalls by the deadline. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether badger Rabbits: Animal Welfare vaccinations have any effect on those animals already infected with bovine TB. [104669] Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: There is no scientific evidence that the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her injectable vaccine will benefit badgers that are already Department’s policy is on the regulation of the infected. sourcing of rabbit meat from animals produced in industrial cages; and if she will make a statement. [103825] Horses: Tagging Mr Paice: Rabbits kept for meat production in cages Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for or in other systems are protected by the general provisions Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will take of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which makes it an steps to ensure that all horses are micro-chipped and offence to cause suffering to an animal. In addition, the registered with an equine passport. [104240] Welfare of Farmed Animals (England) Regulations 2007 lays down requirements in respect of general welfare, Mr Paice: The Horse Passport Regulations 2009 (which inspection, housing and feeding for all farm animals apply in England) require all horses to be issued with a and includes a section specifically to protect the welfare passport. Under this legislation, all newly identified of rabbits kept for the production of food. 783W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 784W

Shellfish: Animal Welfare Grant Shapps: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 12 January 2012, Official Report, columns Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for 402-03W,to the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has Mitchell). had any meetings with representatives of animal Homes and Communities Agency welfare groups to discuss the potential for bringing forward new regulations governing the slaughter of crustaceans; and if she will make a statement. [105137] Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) what recent Mr Paice: No meetings have been held on this subject advice he has given to the Homes and Communities with animal welfare groups. Agency over the naming of housing developments on land owned or controlled by the Agency; [105275] (2) if he will seek an explanation from the Homes and Communities Agency over its naming policy for COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT new roads on the former Severalls Hospital site at Addison Lee Colchester; what discussions the Agency has had with (a) Myland community council and (b) Colchester Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for borough council on this matter; and if he will make a Communities and Local Government what meetings statement. [105276] (a) Ministers, (b) special advisers and (c) officials in his Department have had with John Griffin of Addison Andrew Stunell: The naming of housing developments, Lee since 12 May 2010. [104694] including roads, on land owned or controlled by the Homes and Communities Agency is not something that Robert Neill [holding answer 23 April 2012]: Details the Agency takes decisions on, it is a matter for local of ministerial and Permanent Secretary meetings with councils. As part of this, councils will often consult and external organisations and individuals are published on receive views from local partners and community groups. a quarterly basis. For the avoidance of doubt, no Ministers, And this is something that we would encourage more special advisers or the Permanent Secretary have had generally as part of involving local people in shaping departmental meetings with John Griffin since 12 May development in their area. 2010. Details of officials’ meetings with external In the case of the former Severalls hospital site, I organisations and individuals are not collated centrally understand that the Agency, along with others, did and to do so would entail disproportionate cost. approach Colchester borough council about the naming of the roads, and that the decision on naming was made Building Regulations by Colchester borough council.

Mr Raynsford: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing: Disabled Communities and Local Government which Cabinet Committee approved the decision to hold a Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Government Consultation on proposed changes to Communities and Local Government (1) how many Part L of the Building Regulations. [R] [104953] housing adaptations were carried out in England and Wales in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) 2011-12 to Andrew Stunell [holding answer 23 April 2012]: A date; and if he will make a statement; [104441] package of proposals for changes to the building regulations (2) how much each local authority spent on housing (including, but not limited to, part L Conservation of adaptations in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) Fuel and Power) was published on 31 January 2012. 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [104443] The consultation package was approved for publication following collective agreement across government. The Andrew Stunell: The Disabled Facilities Grant plays a Government will publish their response to the consultation crucial role in maintaining the independence of many in due course disabled people. The grant funds adaptations to help I also refer the right hon. Member to paragraph 2.3 disabled people to live as independently as possible in of the Ministerial Code, which states: their homes. Local authorities deliver adaptations under “The internal process through which a decision has been made, the Disabled Facilities Grant in line with their statutory or the level of Committee by which it was taken should not be duties. The Department for Communities and Local disclosed.” Government does not hold specific information on the number of adaptations carried out or their cost. This Debt Collection Government have been clear that local authorities should be freed up from central control and monitoring. However, Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for DCLG has secured £725 million for the grant in the Communities and Local Government what his policy is 2010 spending review for the period 2011-12 to 2014-15. on plans by councils to charge bailiff companies an In 2011-12 the annual allocation for the grant rose to administration fee for transferring to them Penalty £180 million, an increase of £11 million compared to Charge Notice warrants and to retain a percentage of the 2010-11 budget of £169 million. The allocation for bailiffs’ gross fees and charges raised under the Council the grant will increase further to £185 million by the end Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations of the spending review (2014-15). In January 2012, the 1992 and Non-Domestic Rating (Collection and Government invested an extra £20 million for the disabled Enforcement) (Local Lists) regulations 1989; and if he facilities grant bringing the total grant in 2011-12 to will make a statement. [104342] £200 million. 785W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 786W

Housing: Energy Planning Permission

Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government when he plans to Communities and Local Government what role the announce a decision on (a) allowable solutions and community will have in developing local development (b) fabric energy efficiency standards in respect of plans under the National Planning Policy Framework. zero-carbon homes. [104641] [104244]

Andrew Stunell: The Government are continuing to consider their policy on allowable solutions in respect Greg Clark: The requirement to involve communities of zero carbon homes and will make an announcement in the planning of their communities is set out in in due course. The current consultation on proposals to primary legislation. A local planning authority is obliged change Part L (Conservation of Fuel and Power) of the to prepare a statement of community involvement setting Building Regulation in 2013 seeks views on how the out how it will involve interested parties in developing fabric energy efficiency standard could be incorporated their local plan. Further regulations require councils to within Part L. That consultation closes on 27 April and consult local people early in the process on what their the Government will announce its conclusions in due plan should contain, as well as consulting them on the course once responses have been considered. draft that the authority propose to submit for examination. The Localism Act gives communities new powers to Incinerators: Nottinghamshire plan for the future of their areas through neighbourhood planning. Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for The National Planning Policy Framework provides a Communities and Local Government whether his framework within which local people and their councils Department has received an environmental impact can produce their own distinctive local and neighbourhood assessment in respect of the incinerator at Elkesley in plans, which reflect the needs and priorities of their Nottinghamshire. [104979] communities. The Framework is clear that local councils should proactively engage a wide section of the community Robert Neill: An environmental impact statement in in plan making, and that early and meaningful engagement support of proposals for the construction and operation and collaboration with neighbourhoods, local organisations of a biomass fuelled combined heat and power plant in and businesses is essential. Elkesley was received by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), Communities and Local Government if he will assess from Nottinghamshire county council on 16 July 2010. the performance of Planning Aid England in relation The proposal is still at a relatively early stage and an to communities on neighbourhood planning; and if he application for planning permission for this development will make a statement. [104282] has yet to be considered by the county planning authority. Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Legal Costs Communities and Local Government if he will assess the effectiveness of organisations such as Planning Aid Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for in supporting communities to take a role in planning Communities and Local Government how much his their areas. [104302] Department spent on fees for legal work in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. Greg Clark: Planning Aid, through the Royal Town [104550] Planning Institute, is one of the four support organisations currently funded as part of the Supporting Communities Robert Neill: The departmental spend on legal work in Neighbourhood Planning scheme. Their effectiveness was (a) £2,360,000 in financial year 2010-11 and (b) in supporting communities is assessed as part of the £2,002,000 in financial year 2011-12. monitoring of the grant agreement that the Department The spend includes litigation fees paid to the Treasury for Communities and Local Government has with them. Solicitors Department, counsel and solicitors fees for legal advice, and payments to the Office of the Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Parliamentary Counsel. Communities and Local Government when he expects The comparable spend in 2009-10 was £4.8 million. I to complete his review of the supporting communities also refer the hon. Member to my answer of 12 December in neighbourhood planning programme; and if he will 2011, Official Report, columns 482-83W, which outlines make a statement. [104344] the number of cases open at any one time and the nature of Government litigation, reflecting the Greg Clark: The Department of Communities and Department’s quasi-judicial functions. Local Government is currently looking at the support Details of all expenditure over £500 are published, needed by communities for neighbourhood planning. each month, on the Department’s website. Legal advice As part of this we are looking at the support provided is coded under “Legal Consultancy” and “Legal Fees”. to communities through the Supporting Communities http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/ in Neighbourhood Planning programme. We will set transparencyingovernment/spenddata/ out our conclusions shortly. 787W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 788W

Procurement Clinical Excellence’s public health guidance 37, Identifying and managing tuberculosis among hard-to- Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for reach groups, published in March 2012, if he will make Communities and Local Government how many tuberculosis patients who are rough sleepers a priority contracts his Department had with (a) Capita and (b) need group for housing. [104515] Serco in the last 12 months. [103166] Grant Shapps: The Housing Act 1996 places a statutory Robert Neill: In the last 12 months my Department duty on local housing authorities to secure accommodation has had one contract with (a) Capita which we use as where an applicant is homeless through no fault of their an agency with respect to interim staff engagement and own, eligible for assistance and is in priority need. The one contract with (b) Serco in relation to the closure of priority need categories include people who are vulnerable the Homeowner Mortgage Support scheme web portal. as a result of old age, mental illness or physical disability. Local authorities provide a range of emergency Public Sector: Land accommodation and priority will be determined locally. In a small number of cases, local national health Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for service organisations may assist in the provision of Communities and Local Government what advice has temporary accommodation for individuals diagnosed been given to the holders of surplus public sector land with tuberculosis who are not eligible for local authority about the process to be used in disposing of it, funded accommodation so that treatment can be completed including in respect of EU rules. [104642] and lengthy in-patient stays avoided. As part of the proposed model of care for tuberculosis services in Grant Shapps: The Government are committed to London, the NHS in London is considering establishing accelerating the release of surplus public sector land, a pan-London protocol and fund to deal with such and each Department is responsible for their land release. cases. They have specialist teams to manage this and consider New guidance from the National Institute for Health any site specific procurement issues. All Departments and Clinical Excellence on identifying and managing are required to obtain best consideration for their disposals tuberculosis in hard to reach groups recommends that within the current market conditions as set out in local. NHS and partner organisations should collaborate “Managing Public Money” (HM Treasury). to provide accommodation for homeless people diagnosed I also refer the right hon. Member to the answer with active pulmonary tuberculosis irrespective of their given to him by the Under-Secretary of State for eligibility. Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member I have provided an additional £70 million to tackle for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell), on 19 March 2012, and prevent rough sleeping. This includes: Official Report, column 511W, which sets out some of £20 million—Homelessness Transition Fund to support the the support we are providing to Departments. This roll out of No Second Night Out and protect vital front line includes guidance on the use of Build Now, Pay Later, services. which is available on the Homes and Communities £20 million—Single Homelessness Prevention Fund to help Agency’s website: ensure single homeless people get access to good housing advice. http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/ourwork/build-now- £5 million boost to the Homelessness Change Programme pay-later-guidance (bringing the total investment to £42.5 million) to deliver improved How and when this support is used is a matter for each hostel provision and provide over 1,500 new and improved bed Department. spaces. £5 million—Social Impact Bond—using a payment by results Next month I will be publishing a progress report model to help persistent rough sleepers in London. This is the setting out further details about the public land programme, first Social Impact Bond set up to tackle homelessness in the including how we will accelerate disposals and the world. support available. A copy of this report will be placed in This comes on top of the existing £400 million the Library of the House. homelessness grant this Government have protected over the next four years. Travellers: Caravan Sites The Ministerial Working Group on Homelessness which I chair, has pledged that for the first time no one Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for should ever need to experience a second night sleeping Communities and Local Government what funding his rough. My colleague the Minister of State, Department Department provides to local authorities to assist with of Health, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam the costs of creating temporary Traveller sites. [105075] (Paul Burstow), represents the Department of Health for the Group. Andrew Stunell: Temporary and transit Traveller sites are eligible for funding under the £60 million Traveller Pitch Funding programme administered by the Homes and Communities Agency. A total of £3.15 million was WORK AND PENSIONS allocated in January 2012 for this purpose. Council Tax Benefits Tuberculosis Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State and Pensions how many households in each local for Communities and Local Government with authority are employed and in receipt of council tax reference to the National Institute for Health and benefit. [105219] 789W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 790W

Steve Webb: A copy of the available information has Housing Benefit been placed in the House Library. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Pensions what the (a) absolute and (b) percentage and Pensions how much his Department paid to each change was in the number of local housing allowance local authority which processes claims for council tax claimants who were in work in each local authority benefit to reimburse the authority for correctly area between May 2010 and January 2012. [105168] processed claims in each of the last five years for which figures are available. [105220] Steve Webb: A copy of the available information has been placed in the Library. Steve Webb: The amount of subsidy paid to each local authority for correctly paid council tax benefit Jobseeker’s Allowance claims for the years 2006-07 to 2010-11 is set out in tables which I have placed in the House Library. Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in Motherwell Employment Schemes and Wishaw constituency currently claim jobseeker’s allowance; and how many former claimants in Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Motherwell have found employment through the Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 16 April Access to Work scheme since its introduction. [104971] 2012, Official Report, column 255W, on employment schemes, whether he has any plans to repeat the one-off Maria Miller: At March 2012 there were 3,886 claimants exercise to determine the proportion of work of jobseeker’s allowance in Motherwell and Wishaw programme attachments which are referred to the tier 1 constituency. Since 1 April 20071 and up to 31 December and tier 2 voluntary sector organisations. [105181] 2011, 30 former claimants of jobseeker’s allowance in Motherwell and Wishaw constituency have started the Chris Grayling: The Department plans to repeat the Access to Work scheme2. one-off exercise in due course as part of our overall 1 Access to Work data are only available from 1 April 2007 plans on release of Work programme information. onwards. Official statistics on referrals and attachments to the 2 Source: Access to Work database, 100% WPLS and NOMIS Work programme were released on 21 February 2012 claimant count. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. and are available on the Department’s website: Motability http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=wp Foreign Workers Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment his Department has Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work made of the number of disabled people who will lose and Pensions what his Department’s policy is on motability vehicles under personal independence offshoring of jobs by its contracted companies; what payment rollout plans. [101971] discussions he had with Accenture and IBM of offshoring prior to awarding the contract for the Maria Miller: ‘Personal Independence Payment: universal credit IT system; and if he will make a Assessment Thresholds and Consultation’ was published statement. [103425] in January 2012, and can be found at: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pip-assessment-thresholds-and- Chris Grayling: The Department’s policy on proposals consultation.pdf by its contracted companies to carry out work It included early estimates on the potential reduction in internationally is that all such proposals are required to the number of higher rate mobility component recipients demonstrate compliance with a number of key criteria, of disability living allowance, aged between 16 and 64, before they are formally considered for approval by the in 2015-16. A copy has been placed in the Library. Department. These criteria include evidence that the We are continuing to work closely with Motability to proposal is financially beneficial to the taxpayer and understand what impact personal independence payment that it meets stringent security standards. In assessing roll-out plans might have on their customer numbers financial benefit to the taxpayer, the Department considers and to ensure Motability are well placed to manage the the impact on UK jobs. Since May 2010, the Department introduction of the new benefit. has only accepted proposals from its suppliers to carry out work internationally that meet these criteria, and it Remploy has not accepted any proposals that would result in the loss of existing jobs within the UK. Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of his Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Department’s liability for redundancy payments Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 16 April consequent upon the planned closures of each 2012, Official Report, column 249W, on contracts for Remploy factory. [104036] services, how many offshoring proposals meeting the criteria his Department has accepted since May 2010. Maria Miller: The Remploy board started collective [105178] consultation on 19 March 2012 on the proposed closure of 36 factories the board considers are unlikely to Chris Grayling: Five DWP suppliers have submitted achieve independent financial viability.As part of collective offshoring proposals meeting the criteria since ay 2010. consultation, the Remploy board will consider all proposals 791W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 792W to avoid compulsory redundancy. The Remploy board Retirement will also consider ways of mitigating the consequences of redundancy dismissals, including redundancy payments Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and the comprehensive personal package of support and Pensions how many (a) civil servants and (b) which would be made available to any Remploy employee senior civil servants have retired from his Department who is, in the event, made redundant. since May 2010; and if he will make a statement. The redundancy terms that will be offered to any [104141] Remploy employee who is, in the event, made redundant are under discussion as part of the collective consultation Chris Grayling: The following information relates to process between Remploy and employee representatives. the number of civil servants that have retired from Estimates made of the cost of redundancy should not DWP since 1 May 2010, up to and including 31 March be released before final agreement has been reached 2012. between Remploy and trade unions on the terms that Retirements will be offered as disclosure would, or would be likely Number to, prejudice the commercial interests of Remploy while in negotiations. All civil servants (excluding senior 2,709 It is important to be absolutely clear that all decisions civil servants) about proposed factory closures and redundancies are Senior civil servants 9 subject to this ongoing collective consultation process Overall total 2,718 and that no final decisions have been made about these matters. Social Security Benefits Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and and Pensions what subsidiary businesses Remploy Pensions what analysis his Department has conducted operates in Scotland. [104039] on the movement of benefit units from one local Maria Miller: Remploy does not have any subsidiary authority to another each month; and if he will take businesses in Scotland. The company operations are steps to make this data publicly available. [105170] UK wide with the core Remploy businesses in Scotland being health care, social enterprises, local public sales, Steve Webb: The Department has commissioned a textiles and Workscope. consortium of academics and research organisations led by Ian Cole, professor of housing studies at Sheffield Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Hallam university to undertake an independent review and Pensions whether any of the Remploy factories of the impact of changes to the local housing allowance earmarked for closure were funded through the private system of housing benefit. finance initiative. [104040] One element of the research is a spatial analysis of the effects of the changes that will examine movement Maria Miller: Remploy is not funded through the from one local authority to another. The results of this private finance initiative. Remploy is an executive non- analysis are expected to be available towards the end of departmental public body and a public corporation. It 2012. is sponsored by the Department for Work and Pensions. The Department of Communities and Local It receives grant in aid each year in exchange for delivering Government, The Scottish Government and Welsh a range of employment and development opportunities Assembly Government are working in close partnership for disabled people under the Government’s Work Choice with the DWP and contributing to the costs of the programme. review.

Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Social Security Benefits: Disability and Pensions what the average length of service is of staff employed by Remploy factories at each of its locations in Scotland. [104042] Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what changes have been made Maria Miller: The average length of service of staff to the ESA 50 form following the recommendations on employed by Remploy factories at each of its locations mental, intellectual and cognitive function contained in in Scotland is listed in the following table: Professor Harrington’s second independent review of the Work Capability Assessment; [103580] Site Average of length of service (years) (2) whether his Department consulted the Disability

Aberdeen 25 Benefits Consortium on changes to the ESA 50 form Clydebank 20 following the recommendations on mental, intellectual Cowdenbeath 18 and cognitive function contained in Professor Dundee 15 Harrington’s second independent review of the Work [103581] Edinburgh 16 Capability Assessment. Lanarkshire 20 Leven 19 Chris Grayling: We made major changes to the ESA50 Springburn 21 form in April 2011 as a result of the Department-led Stirling 16 internal review, as well as the first Harrington Review, Note: in cooperation with medical experts, disabled people’s These figures have been supplied by Remploy. groups and claimants. 793W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 794W

These included changing all the form’s descriptors Chris Grayling: My Department will require certain and encouraging claimants to submit medical evidence evidence from claimants to support their universal credit with their forms, as well as improving the wording in claim. It is likely that claimants will be offered a variety general. We also made the form available online at of options to provide the required evidence and the Directgov. specific details are currently being developed. Since October 2011 the Department has also been working closely with disability organisations such as Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Mind, Mencap, the NAS and others since to improve Work and Pensions how universal credit will be paid to the ESA50 form further, especially with regards to how people without a bank account. [105180] the form assesses mental function. We have received a number of recommendations from these organisations Chris Grayling: The majority of UC payments will be which the Department is considering. made directly into a bank account or similar alternative product. No further changes to the form have yet been formally agreed, as our review is still ongoing. We are also We recognise that some claimants do not currently planning further work with some of the other disability have access to a mainstream bank account. We are organisations which provided specific reports for Professor working with a range of providers to make financial Harrington as part of his second review. We have not services more accessible to low income households. consulted with the Disability Benefits Consortium as For those claimants unable to access an account we part of this. will continue to ensure that alternative methods of payment are available. State Retirement Pensions Work Capability Assessment

Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State and Pensions if he will estimate the cost to the public for Work and Pensions how many people in Coventry purse of increasing the state pension by £10 a week if have undergone a work capability assessment to date. the payment was (a) tax free and not taken into [104322] account for income-related benefits, (b) taxable but not taken into account for income-related benefits and Chris Grayling: In the Coventry local authority area (c) taxable and counted as income for the purposes of 5,760 people have undergone an initial work capability income-related benefits. [105172] assessment (WCA) as part of a new claim for employment and support allowance (ESA) between October 2008 Steve Webb: The net costs to the public purse of and the end of August 2011, the latest data available. increasing the basic state pension by £10 a week are estimated to be: Note that this figure only covers new claims to ESA and excludes claimants moving to ESA as part of the 2012-13 Incapacity Benefit Reassessment programme. The £ billion department will be publishing data on the outcomes of (a) Tax free and not taken into account 5.3 IB Reassessment claims at the regional and local authority for income-related benefits level on 20 April 2012. (b) Taxable but not taken into account 4.6 The Department regularly publishes data on ESA for income-related benefits and the WCA. The latest publication was released in (c) Taxable and counted as income for the 3.7 purposes of income-related benefits January and can be found on the departmental website Notes: here: 1. Estimates given show the additional spend due to increasing the basic state http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ pension by £10 in 2012-13. Part (b) includes savings from taxing the £10 index.php?page=esa_wca increase, resulting in lower net spend. Part (c) includes savings from taxing the £10 increase and savings from reduced income related benefit payments (including This information is taken from administrative data pension credit, housing benefit, council tax benefit, working tax credits and held by the Department for Work and Pensions and child tax credits), further reducing net spend. 2. The basic state pension is normally taxable and taken into account for assessment data provided by Atos Healthcare. Note income related benefit payments. that figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. 3. Part (a) has been estimated using the DWP Forecasting model. Parts (b) and (c) have been estimated using the Department’s Policy Simulation Model. 4. Net costs for 2012-13 have been presented, however increasing the basic state Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State pension by £10 in 2012-13 will have substantial knock on effects for spending in for Work and Pensions what the cost to the public future years. 5. Figures shown are against a baseline of current policy spend based on April purse has been of work capability assessments carried 2012 benefit rates. out in Coventry in the latest period for which figures 6. Estimates are in 2012-13 prices, have been rounded to the nearest £100 are available. [104323] million and are for Great Britain. Source: DWP Forecasting model and Policy Simulation Model Chris Grayling: Work capability assessments are undertaken by healthcare professionals working for Universal Credit Atos Healthcare on behalf of the Department. Financial data is not held for individual geographical areas or Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for individual medical examination centres. Work and Pensions whether he expects to require This medical services contract will in due course be evidence documents from applicants for universal re-let by means of a competitive procurement exercise. credit to be provided by post or in person; and, if in Releasing details of Atos Healthcare’s underlying financial person, where applicants will be required to attend. model would be likely to prejudice their commercial [105179] interests. 795W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 796W

The Department has balanced the public interest in http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ withholding the information against the public interest index.php?page=esa_wca in disclosing the information and considers that release Numbers above have been rounded to the nearest 10. of the information would prejudice the interest of Atos Healthcare and the Department’s future dealings with Atos Healthcare or other service providers. CABINET OFFICE Charities Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what impact assessment his Hywel Williams: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Department has carried out on the extent to which the Office what plans he has to make provision for the work capability assessment is able to meet the needs of status of charitable incorporated organisations. people with mental health problems. [104324] [105127]

Chris Grayling: Prior to the implementation of the Mr Hurd: I hope to be able to lay the relevant orders department-led review of the work capability assessment early in the new parliamentary session. Commencement (WCA), an impact assessment was undertaken to assess will be subject to the parliamentary approval. whether the proposed changes would help in correctly Contracts for Services identifying an individual’s capability for work. In particular, this was to assess proposals for the Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Minister for the expansion of the support group for claimants who have Cabinet Office what estimate he has made of the certain communication difficulties and severe mental number of public sector jobs outsourced by each health conditions. The impact assessment can be found Government department since May 2010. [104336] at: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-ia-eia.pdf Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office does not hold centrally Furthermore, as part of his second independent review the number of civil service or wider public sector jobs of the WCA Professor Harrington worked with Mind, which have been outsourced since May 2010. This is a Mencap and the National Autistic Society to review matter for individual Departments. and recommend improvements to the mental, intellectual Deaths: Asbestos and cognitive descriptors. Professor Harrington agreed with the Government that further evidence is required Ian Lucas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office to establish whether the charities’ proposed descriptors (1) how many people have died as a result of asbestosis would make the assessment more accurate; we are currently following exposure to asbestos in (a) Wrexham investigating how to build up such an evidence base. constituency, (b) Wales and (c) the UK in each year since 2005; [105339] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State (2) how many people have died of mesothelioma in for Work and Pensions how many appeals have been (a) Wrexham constituency, (b) Wales and (c) the UK made in Coventry against a decision to remove benefit in each year since 2005. [105340] as a result of a work capability assessment; and how many such appeals have been upheld in the latest Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the period for which figures are available. [104325] responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Chris Grayling: In the period between October 2008 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated April 2012: and November 2010 1,150 appeals have been heard on As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I employment support allowance (ESA) fit for work decisions have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions asking: in the Coventry local authority area. In 380 cases Her 1. How many people have died of asbestosis in (a) Wrexham Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) found constituency, (b) Wales and (c) the UK in each year since 2005 in the favour of the claimant and in the remaining 770 (105339) cases the original decision was upheld. 2. How many people have died of mesothelioma in (a) Wrexham Note: constituency, (b) Wales and (c) the UK in each year since 2005 (105340) Appeals against incapacity benefit reassessment claims are not The following table provides the number of deaths registered included in these figures; where the underlying cause of death was either: (1) pneumoconiosis The Department regularly publishes official statistics on employment due to asbestos and other mineral fibres (therefore including and support allowance (ESA) and the work capability assessment asbestosis) or (2) mesothelioma in Wrexham constituency, Wales (WCA). The latest publication was released in January 2012 and and the United Kingdom, between 2005 and 2010 (the latest year can be found on the departmental website here: available).

Number of deaths where asbestosis or mesothelioma was the underlying cause of death, Wrexham parliamentary constituency, Wales and the United Kingdom, 2005-101, 2, 3, 4 Persons 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Wrexham Pneumoconiosis due to asbestos and other mineral 000010 fibres Mesothelioma 411032 797W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 798W

Number of deaths where asbestosis or mesothelioma was the underlying cause of death, Wrexham parliamentary constituency, Wales and the United Kingdom, 2005-101, 2, 3, 4 Persons 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Wales Pneumoconiosis due to asbestos and other mineral 6571138 fibres Mesothelioma 73 76 87 96 103 95 UK Pneumoconiosis due to asbestos and other mineral 141 145 144 147 217 194 fibres Mesothelioma 1,934 2,005 2,032 2,160 2,293 2,291 1 Underlying cause of death was defined using the International Classification of Diseases Tenth Revision (tCD-10) code C45 Mesothelioma; J61 Pneumoconiosis due to asbestos and other mineral fibres. 2 Figures for the UK are based on the final underlying cause of death. Figures for Wales and Wrexham are based on original underlying cause of death. 3 Figures for Wales and Wrexham exclude deaths of non-residents. Figures for the UK include deaths of non-residents. 4 Figures are based on deaths registered in each calendar year. Source: Office for National Statistics, National Records of Scotland, Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency

Divorce Mr Maude [holding answer 23 April 2012]: The Government take the threat of cyber attacks very seriously Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet which is why we have allocated new funding of £650 million Office what proportion of married couples divorce over four years to respond effectively to threats from when at the time of divorce the husband is aged cyberspace through the National Cyber Security between (a) 20 and 29, (b) 30 and 39, (c) 40 and 49, programme. (d) 50 and 59, (e) 60 and 69, (f) 70 and 79 and (g) 80 In relation to a recent spate of distributed denial of and 89. [105260] service attacks, Government Departments have been issued with an advisory note through GovCert UK (the Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Government Computer Emergency. Response Team) responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have which reiterates guidance on appropriate defensive measures asked the authority to reply. against DDoS attacks and the response procedures. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated April 2012: This complements the ongoing and routine support As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I that CESG (the Information Assurance Arm of GCHG) have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question to provides to Government Departments on how to asking what proportion of married couples divorce when at the protect against detect and mitigate various types of time of divorce the husband is aged between (a) 20 and 29, (b) 30 cyber attack. and 39, (c) 40 and 49, (d) 50 and 59, (e) 60 and 69, (f) 70 and 79 Government Departments are required to adhere to and (g) 80 and 89 (105260). the Security Policy Framework which sets out the minimum Table 1 shows the percentage of divorces in England and Wales requirements for protective security policy across by the age group of the husband at divorce in 2010, the latest year for which figures are available. Government including a section on information security and assurance. Table 1: Percentage of divorces by age group of husband, 2010 Third Sector Age group Percentage

20-29 6.6 Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 30-39 30.1 Office pursuant to the answer of 17 October 2011, 40-49 37.0 Official Report, column 733W, on the third sector, how 50-59 18.8 much direct funding his Department provided to each 60-69 6.4 civil society organisation it funded in (a) 2010-11 and 70-79 1.0 (b) 2011-12; how much it plans to provide in 2012-13; 80-89 0.1 and if he will make a statement. [104377] Total 100.0 Note: Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Less than 0.1 per cent of divorces were to husbands aged under 20 or over 89. gave on 17 October 2011, Official Report, columns 733-34W, for figures for 2010-11. Electronic Government A list of direct net grants to organisations for 2011-12 (not including funds passed to arm’s length bodies to Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet distribute as grant funding on behalf of the Cabinet Office what recent assessment he has made of the Office) is shown in the following table. These figures are ability of government websites to withstand distributed subject to audit. denial of service cyber attacks. [103648] Plans for 2012-13 are yet to be finalised.

Funding to civil society organisations in 2011-121 Organisation Grant funding (£)

Academy of Youth Ltd t/a University of First Age 49,018 Acevo 415,000 Age UK 37,000 799W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 800W

Funding to civil society organisations in 2011-121 Organisation Grant funding (£)

Arts and Business 37,000 Bolton Lads and Girls Club 406,413 BSB 42 Ltd 1,627,736 Business in the Community 272,642 Catch22 Charity Ltd 2,318,005 Changemakers 85,877 Citizenship Foundation 300,000 Community Foundation Network 1,580,000 Community Foundation Network Secret Millionaire Match Fund 250,000 Community Matters 100,000 Community Service Volunteers CVS 5,000 Connexions Cumbria 825,050 Envision 148,415 Field Studies Council 295,013 Future Foundations 241,874 Fylde Coast YMCA 44,332 Giving.Com Ltd 500,000 Global Action Plan 63,765 Groundwork UK 58,184 Groundwork West Midlands 33,680 Institute of Fundraising 275,000 Jewish Lads and Girls Brigade 54,016 Luton Culture 57,264 Media Trust 230,000 Mitzvah Day 30,000 National Council for Voluntary Organisations 850,000 National Youth Agency 268,775 NAVCA 345,000 New College Nottingham 151,421 New Philanthropy Capital 100,000 Norwich City Community Sports Foundation 346,657 Partnership Network Ltd 74,192 Petroc 181,883 Safe in Tees Valley 1,347,007 Salford Foundation 81,035 School for Social Entrepreneurs 315,000 Sefton Council for Voluntary Service 84,102 Social Enterprise Coalition 500,000 Sporttrain Wales Ltd 166,310 Streetsmart 220,000 The Challenge Network 7,141,399 The Football League Community Ltd 1,685,985 The Join in Trust Ltd 512,464 The Lincolnshire and Rutland EBP 250,493 The National Coaching Foundation Sports Coach UK 36,950 The Princes Trust 1,010,228 Transitions Plus UK Ltd 175,223 Urban Forum 60,000 V 3,052,421 Voice4change England Ltd 80,000 Volunteering England 577,824 Womens Resource Centre 57,000 Workality CIC 350,000 Young Devon 1,266,445 Young Lives 42,244 Your Consortium Ltd 47,827 Youthnet UK 700,000 Grand total 32,418,169 1 Subject to audit. 801W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 802W

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER wide range of meetings involving political parties, community organisations, academics and victims groups Addison Lee on this matter. I continue to meet political party representatives and Maria Eagle: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what interested groups to seek their views on how consensus meetings (a) Ministers, (b) special advisers and (c) on this difficult issue might be achieved. While the officials in his Office have had with John Griffin of Government have a role to play, any successful outcome Addison Lee since 12 May 2010. [105110] will only be possible if agreement is found from within Northern Ireland. At present it is clear that no such The Deputy Prime Minister: I have not held any consensus on a way forward exists. meetings with John Griffin since 12 May 2010. My special advisers and private office officials have also not held any such meetings. Peter Cruddas EDUCATION

Ian Lavery: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what Adoption: Birmingham meetings (a) he, (b) his special advisers and (c) officials in his office have had with Peter Cruddas since Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for 12 May 2010. [103712] Education how many children were in foster care waiting for adoption in Birmingham, Ladywood The Deputy Prime Minister: I have not held any constituency in each of the last five years. [104460] meetings with Peter Cruddas since 12 May 2010. My special advisers and private office officials have also not Tim Loughton: The information requested for held any such meetings. Birmingham local authority can be found in the following tables. Information at constituency level is not available. The decision that a looked after child should be NORTHERN IRELAND placed for adoption is made by the local authority but the local authority cannot actually place the child with Political Parties prospective adopters without either a placement order or parental consent (depending on the individual Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for circumstances of the case). Northern Ireland what plans he has to publish the Information about the decision that a child should be results of his meetings with party leaders in Northern placed for adoption has only been collected for all Ireland on how to deal with the past. [105302] looked after children, for whom the decision was made, since 2009. Previously, this information was only given Mr Paterson: Since May 2010 the Minister of State, when the child had been adopted. Consequently, the Northern Ireland Office, my right hon. Friend the Member number of children waiting for adoption can be provided for East Devon (Mr Swire), and I have undertaken a only for the last three years.

Looked after children for whom the decision was made that they should be placed for adoption while placed in foster care, who were then placed for adoption, adopted, had the decision that they should be placed for adoption reversed or who were still waiting to be adopted at 31 March1,2,3,4, years ending 31 March 2009 to 2011, coverage: Birmingham Number Year in which the child was placed for adoption, adopted, for whom the decision was reversed or was waiting to be adopted 2009 Number of children in Year in which the foster care for whom the Number who decision was made decision was made that Number of Number for whom ceased to be Number at 31 that the child should they should be placed for children placed for Number of the decision was looked after for March awaiting be placed for adoption adoption adoption children adopted reversed another reason5 adoption6

2009 105 10 0 * * 100 2010 110 n/a n/a n/a — n/a 2011 130 n/a n/a n/a — n/a

Number Year in which the child was placed for adoption, adopted, for whom the decision was reversed or was waiting to be adopted 2010 Number of children in Year in which the foster care for whom the Number who decision was made decision was made that Number of Number for whom ceased to be Number at 31 that the child should they should be placed for children placed for Number of the decision was looked after for March awaiting be placed for adoption adoption adoption children adopted reversed another reason5 adoption6

2009 105 45 15 10 10 70 2010 110 10 0 * * 105 2011 130 n/a n/a n/a — n/a 803W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 804W

Number Year in which the child was placed for adoption, adopted, for whom the decision was reversed or was waiting to be adopted 2011 Year in which the Number of children in decision was made foster care for whom the Number who that the child should decision was made that Number of Number for whom ceased to be Number at 31 be placed for they should be placed for children placed for Number of the decision was looked after for March awaiting adoption adoption adoption children adopted reversed another reason5 adoption6

2009 105 15 40 5 * 30 2010 110 50 30 10 10 60 2011 130 10***125 * = Figures not shown in order to protect confidentiality. n/a = Not applicable. 1 Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 5. Consequently, the figures may not add up. For confidentiality purposes, numbers from one to five inclusive have been replaced by an asterisk (*). Where any number is shown as zero (0), the original figure submitted was zero (0). 2 Only children looked after in a foster care placement when the decision was made that they should be placed for adoption have been counted. 3 For children living with the family intending to adopt them (i.e. placed for adoption), it is for the prospective adopters to apply to court for an adoption order. 4 Children waiting to be placed for adoption may either be waiting for a placement order to be made by the court or be in the process of being matched with prospective adopters. 5 Children who ceased to be looked after for reasons other than adoption e.g. returned to live with parents, residence order, special guardianship (decision to place for adoption had not been recorded as reversed), 6 The number of children at 31 March awaiting adoption is calculated as the total number of children in foster care for whom the decision was made that they should be placed for adoption, minus the total number of children who were adopted, for whom the decision was reversed or ceased to be looked after for another reason. The number includes children who have been placed for adoption, but for whom an adoption order has not yet been made, as well as children who have not yet been placed. Source: SSDA 303

Information on adopted children can be found in the Children: Armed Forces Statistical First Release ’Children Looked After by Local Authorities in England (including adoption and Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for care leavers)—year ending 31 March 2011’, which is Education on what dates Ministers in his Department available on the Department’s website via the following had meetings with their counterparts in the Ministry of link: Defence to discuss the service premium between 13 http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001026/ February and 17 April 2012. [104370] index.shtml Tim Loughton [holding answer 23 April 2012]: None Child Rearing of the Department for Education Ministers had meetings to discuss the service premium with their counterparts Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for in the Ministry of Defence during this period. Education whether his Department holds any Curriculum: Sustainable Development information on the amount of time a (a) father and (b) mother interacted with their children on a daily basis in (i) 1982, (ii) 1992, (iii) 2002 and (iv) 2012. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for [104873] Education pursuant to the answer of 26 March 2012, Official Report, column 1014W, on sustainable Sarah Teather: The Department does not hold any development, what consideration he has given to the information on the amount of time fathers and mothers recommendation by the Expert Panel for the National interacted with their children over the last 30 years. Curriculum Review that the curriculum should promote understanding of sustainability in the A recent study by Dr Oriel Sullivan at the University stewardship of resources locally, nationally and of Oxford reported that the time parents spend with globally. [103734] their children has increased over a 25-year period. Mothers spent the most time with children, spending between Mr Gibb: The report of Expert Panel for the National 51 to 86 minutes a day in 2000 compared with eight to Curriculum review, published on 19 December, includes 21 minutes in 1975. The figures showed fathers also a number of recommendations on the shape and design spent more time with their children than their fathers of the National Curriculum. These include the use of did. Fathers spent between 32 to 36 minutes a day with curriculum aims to promote an understanding of their children in 2000 compared with between three to sustainability in the stewardship of resources through eight minutes in 1975. the school curriculum. The study also found that more parents were reading We are currently considering the panel’s to their sons and daughters, as well as visiting child-friendly recommendations, and seeking views from stakeholders. attractions. We will announce our response shortly. The research team analysed thousands of time diaries written by UK families. The journals, from 1975 and Dyslexia 2000, were kept by parents with children under the age of 18 in their household. A copy of the report is Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for available here: Education what recent assessment he has made of the http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2010/ Fast ForWord teaching programme for dyslexics. paren100407.html [104885] 805W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 806W

Sarah Teather: The Department for Education has is currently not available to support the creation of new made no formal, recent evaluation of the Fast ForWord school sixth forms, such as at Park Lane School in programme. Halifax. We have made available a budget of up to It is for individual schools to determine the most £44 million to support the creation of new post-16 appropriate interventions for their pupils. To support places where there is a basic need due to demographic schools the Department is funding the Dyslexia-SpLD pressures but, in general, should a school wish to extend Trust to provide information and advice on effective its offer and open a sixth form then it would be required approaches to teaching dyslexic pupils. The Department to this without capital funding from this Department. also funds the National Association of Special Educational Needs (Nasen) to provide similar advice and information Pre-school Education across the range of special educational needs. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Free School Meals Education what assessment he has made of the level of educational development of three year-olds in each of Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for the last 10 years; and how much funding his Education pursuant to the answer of 31 October 2011, Department has allocated to the education of children Official Report, column 436W, on free school meals, aged under three in each such year. [104889] when the table containing information on the proportion of children receiving free school meals in Sarah Teather: The Department does not assess annually each free school will be placed in the Library. [95216] the educational development of three-year-olds. However, Mr Gibb [holding answer 20 February 2012]: The various assessments of the cognitive development of requested information was placed in the House Libraries three-year-olds have been undertaken as part of research on 17 April. and evaluations commissioned by the Department. Four main relevant studies and the assessments used are Free Schools summarised in appendix A. Prior to 2006-07 there was significant investment in Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Early Years through the General Sure Start Grant and Education what assessment his Department has made Sure Start local programmes but it is not possible to of the catchment areas of those independent schools strip out from this the spend on children aged under that have adopted free school status. [103350] three. From 2006-07 to 2010-11 funding was included in Mr Gibb: All free schools, including independent the Sure Start, Early Yearsand Childcare Grant (formerly schools which adopt free school status, must comply the General Sure Start Grant) specifically for Two Year with the Schools Admission Code and operate admission Old Early Learning (see the following table). In 2011-12 arrangements which are fair, not complex and enable the Department introduced the Early Intervention Grant the majority of places to be accessed by children from (EIG), which replaced a number of centrally directed the local area. All admission arrangements, including grants. The EIG is not ring-fenced, allowing greater proposed catchment areas, are assessed before a funding flexibility and freedom at the local level. The Department agreement is signed to ensure they comply with the recognises that there are on-going costs associated with Schools Admissions Code. the delivery of Two Year Old Early Learning and has therefore made additional funding available in the EIG. Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for It is for each local authority to determine how to use the Education how many free schools he expects to open in overall allocation to best meet local needs and priorities. September 2013. [104856] Total £ Mr Gibb [holding answer 23 April 2012]: The application (England) round for groups hoping to open free schools in 2013 2006-07 Nursery Education Pilot Funding (individually ring-fenced 5,715,450 and beyond closed in February this year. The applications within the GSSG1) are currently being assessed and the results will be 2007-08 Nursery Education Pilot Funding (individually ring-fenced 12,994,025 announced by the Secretary of State for Education, my within the GSSG) 2008-09 Two YearOld Early Learning Pilot Funding (individually 16,994,418 right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael ring-fenced within the SSEYCG2) Gove), in the summer. 2009-10 Two Year Old Early Learning and Childcare Funding 58,306,293 The successful applications will join nine schools that (individually ring fenced within the SSEYCG) are already in pre-opening phase and due to open in 2010-11 Two Year Old Early Learning and Childcare Funding 66,744,167 September 2013. (individually ring-fenced within the SSEYCG) 2011-12 EIG3 Allocation (not ring-fenced) 2,222,555,697 Park Lane School: Halifax 2012-13 EIG Allocation (not ring-fenced) 2,365,200,000 1 General Sure Start Grant (predecessor to the SSEYCG) 2 Sure Start Early Years and Childcare Grant Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for 3 Early Intervention Grant (not ring-fenced—local authorities determine the Education if he will allocate funding to assist Park use of the funding to best meet local need) Lane School in Halifax to build a new sixth form centre. [103332] ANNEX A Cognitive assessment of three-year-olds Mr Gibb: Capital funding is currently directed toward the Government’s key priorities of supporting local National Evaluation of Sure Start authorities to provide pupil places and to provide funding This evaluation was a longitudinal study assessing to support the maintenance of the school estate. As the impact of Sure Start Local programmes (SSLPs) on such capital funding from the Department for Education children and their families by comparing their outcomes 807W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 808W with similar children/families not living in SSLP areas. Schools: Hygiene Development at age three was assessed using four subscales of the British Ability Scales (BAS), which is an educational Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for psychology tool that provides a reliable measure of Education how he expects the new School Premises children’s cognitive functioning. The following subscales Regulations to be enforced in respect of the obligation were used to measure overall cognitive function: block for schools to provide suitable toilets and washing building, verbal comprehension, picture similarities and facilities; and what assessment he has made of the naming vocabulary. The subscales of naming vocabulary effect of the removal of the requirements for a certain and verbal comprehension were used to produce a number of facilities to be provided for a given number measure of language development and the block building of pupils from the regulations on the effectiveness of and picture similarities were used to produce a measure enforcement. [103447] of non-verbal cognitive development. Mr Gibb: Local authorities will be responsible for Further information and the results of these assessments ensuring that the schools they maintain conform to the can be found here: new School Premises Regulations. With independent https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/ schools the new requirements will be enforced through publicationdetail/page1/NESS/2008/FR/027 inspection. Effective Provision of Pre-School Education The proposed School Premises Regulations stress that suitable toilet and washing facilities must be provided This research was designed to assess the effectiveness for the sole use of pupils, having regard to their ages, and impact of pre-school education in England. On number, sex and any special requirements they may entry to the study at three years of age children were have, but the regulations will be supported by supplementary assessed in terms of cognitive development using the information and guidance. This is still being developed same four subscales of the British Ability Scales (BAS) to take account of views expressed in the recent as specified above (for the National Evaluation of Sure consultation. Start). Further information and the results of these assessments can be found here: Teachers: First Aid http://eppe.ioe.ac.uk/eppe/eppeintro.htm Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Millennium Cohort Study Education whether he has any plans to increase the This study started in 2001 and is a birth cohort study proportion of teachers who receive first aid training. tracking the lives of children and their families from [103588] when the children were born. When the children were Mr Gibb: The employer is responsible, under the three-years-old their cognitive outcomes were measured Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 (HSWA), for using two assessments: the naming vocabulary subtest making sure that a school has a health and safety of the British Ability Scales (BAS) and the School policy. This should include arrangements for first aid. It Readiness Composite (SRC) of the Revised Bracken is the employer’s responsibility to make sure that the Basic Concept Scale. The six subtests of the SRC comprise statutory requirements for provision of first aiders are the assessment of children’s basis concepts such as met, that appropriate training is provided and that colours, letters, numbers/counting, sizes, comparisons correct procedures are followed. The employer must and shapes. The test is individually administered. Further ensure that there are enough trained staff to meet the information and the results of these assessments can be statutory requirements and assessed needs, allowing for found here: staff on annual/sick leave or off-site. http://eprints.ioe.ac.uk/2734/1/ Users_Guide_to_Initial_Findings_-_20707.pdf Early Education Pilot for Two Year Old Children Evaluation JUSTICE This study was designed to assess the impact of Law Society providing free early education to disadvantaged two- year-olds. The interviews with families when the children Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for turned three included a range of child assessments Justice (1) what steps he is taking to discuss with the including: Children’s vocabulary as measured by the Law Society the behaviour of companies that purport British Ability Scales (BAS-II) and the Sure Start Language to be law firms; [104924] Measure (SSLM); Children’s non-verbal reasoning, as (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that consumers measured by the BAS-II; and the Adaptive Social Behaviour are not misled by companies that purport to be bona Inventory (ASBI). fide law firms. [104925] Two subscales of the BAS assessments were used— Mr Djanogly: As the legal profession is independent naming vocabulary and picture similarity, the first being and self regulating, this is a matter for the Law Society a measure of vocabulary and the second being a measure and its regulatory arm, the Solicitors Regulation Authority of non-verbal reasoning ability. The SSLM is a parental (SRA). I have not initiated discussions as I am aware report measure of early language which includes both a they have effective arrangements in place to identify word count score and the parents evaluation of and deal with such companies. developmental status (PEDS), which is a measure of The SRA is working to protect consumers from bogus parental concern about language and other aspects of law firms. It has taken steps to raise awareness of this child development. Further information and the results issue amongst the public and legal profession. In addition, of these assessments can be found here: where the SRA has sufficient evidence that firms have https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/RSG/ misled consumers, it can take legal action against the EarlyYearseducationandchildcare/Page6/DCSF-RR134 individual or company concerned. 809W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 810W

Children: Custody there is no firm evidence that unrepresented cases take longer, and we expect a decrease in volumes coming to Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of court due to an estimated 10,000 additional mediations State for Justice whether family law provides a a year. presumption in favour of one parent in child custody cases; and if he will make a statement. [104702] Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what estimate he has made of the potential Tim Loughton [holding answer 23 April 2012]: Ihave (a) change in the number of litigants in person and been asked to reply on behalf of the Department for (b) extra cost to the public purse arising from any such Education. change as a consequence of his proposed changes to legal aid for welfare benefit advice. [105027] There is no presumption in private family law in favour of one parent in contact and residence cases. In Mr Djanogly: The impact assessments and equality making decisions about children’s care, courts are required impact assessments published alongside the response to by the Children Act 1989 to have the welfare of the consultation lay out the Government’s assessment of child as their paramount consideration. Each case is the likely costs and benefits of the reforms. Ultimately, assessed individually on the basis of available evidence, impacts arising from the changes will be driven by with the court taking account of the factors in the behavioural responses, and these cannot be predicted ‘welfare checklist’ in section 1 of the Children Act 1989 with any real degree of accuracy. We will undertake a to ensure that its decisions are consistent with the post-implementation review of the reforms between child’s welfare. 3-5 years following implementation. The Government strongly believe that most children benefit from a continuing relationship with both parents Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State after separation. Our response to the Family Justice for Justice what estimate he has made of savings to the Review includes a commitment to reinforce this principle public purse accruing from his proposed removal of in law. access to legal advice by immigrants and asylum Domestic Violence seekers. [105028] Mr Djanogly: We are retaining legal aid for all asylum Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice cases. In 2009-10 the total spend on immigration and pursuant to his contribution of 17 April 2012, Official asylum was £90 million a year. As set out in the impact Report, column 223, whether his commitment to assessment accompanying the proposals, by removing double the time limit in relation to evidence of most of immigration from the scope of legal aid we will domestic violence will apply in relation to incidents of be saving approximately £20 million a year. child abuse. [105344] Legal Aid Scheme: Domestic Violence Mr Djanogly: Yes. The doubling of the time limit will apply to evidence required to show child abuse for legal aid in private children cases. Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what estimate he has made of any extra Kennet Prison costs that will be incurred by the police, following the proposed withdrawal of legal aid for cases of domestic Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice violence, if they have to investigate all cases of what plans he has for the development of land domestic violence before there is access to public associated with HM Prison Kennet either within the funding for an injunction. [105024] prison or on land outside the prison owned by his Department. [105285] Mr Djanogly: The Government are maintaining legal aid for victims of domestic violence to take protective Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice is looking at every injunctions against their abusers. We will not require opportunity to release the value from surplus assets and victims to produce evidence to gain access to legal aid is considering the disposal of the land it owns close to for protective orders. We will also continue to waive or associated with Kennet prison. The Department is financial eligibility limits in these cases as at present. liaising with the local council about the site’s potential future use. No decisions have yet been taken but we will Prisons: Mental Health Services continue to work with the local authority. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Legal Aid Scheme if he will place in the Library a copy of the results of any pilot projects undertaken by his Department on the Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State use of mindfulness-based therapies in prisons and the for Justice what estimate he has made of the annual justice system. [104866] cost to the Courts Service in the event that they have to deal with an increases in litigants in person as a result Mr Blunt: Our programmes are predominately cognitive of his proposed changes to the legal aid system. behavioural interventions. Some interventions do [105025] incorporate a mindfulness based approach, although this is a relatively new innovation. As of yet there are no Mr Djanogly: Our assessment is that the changes to published reports relating to NOMS pilot projects that the legal aid system are unlikely to impose significant make specific reference to the effectiveness of the use of additional costs on courts or tribunals. This is because mindfulness, or mindfulness-based techniques. 811W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 812W

Public Consultation Mr Djanogly: Information about the number of job vacancies for (a) staff posts and (b) senior civil service Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) posts on 31 March (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012 is not which of his Department’s consultations have been held centrally by the Ministry of Justice. To obtain this externally verified since 2007; for what reason and by information will incur a disproportionate cost. whom such verification was carried out; and what the Witnesses cost to the public purse was of such verification; [104094] Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) whether his Department collects the IP addresses Justice how many notices of prosecution have been of respondents to its consultations; [104095] issued for witnesses giving evidence at public inquiries (3) whether his Department accepts anonymous established under the Inquiries Act 2005; and for which inquiries. [105175] contributions to its consultations. [104096] Mr Djanogly: Information relating to the 14 inquiries Mr Djanogly: The information is as follows. either established under the Inquiries Act 2005 or converted (1) Formal verification of compliance with the various into 2005 Act inquiries is held by the respective sponsoring obligations set out under the HM Government Code of Departments. Practice on Consultation is a matter that is normally The Ministry of Justice sponsored the Bernard (Sonny) handled internally, in accordance with the obligation Lodge inquiry and is currently sponsoring the Azelle under the Code to monitor the effectiveness of consultation Rodney inquiry jointly with the Home Office. No witnesses exercises. have been prosecuted under the 2005 Act in respect of It is normal practice for the Ministry of Justice to these two inquiries. publish a summary of all responses to formal written Young Offenders: Greater Manchester consultation exercises, consistent with the Code. Publication of a summary of consultation responses promotes Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for transparency and provides the opportunity for external Justice how many young adult offenders aged 18 to 20 scrutiny of the consultation process independent of years from (a) Manchester and (b) Trafford have been Government. held in (i) young offender institutions, (ii) a local (2) The Ministry of Justice online consultation tool prison, (iii) a women’s prison and (iv) other parts of records the IP addresses of people providing responses. the secure estate in each month since May 2009. This allows the Ministry to monitor the receipt of [105229] multiple responses from a single IP address. (3) Yes. The Ministry of Justice has signed up to HM Mr Blunt: All young offenders serving sentences of Government Code of Practice on Consultation which DYOI are held in appropriately designated YOI states (at paragraph 6:1) accommodation within the prison estate. The majority of this accommodation is in dedicated YOIs, although “All responses (both written responses and those fed in through some establishments in the estate have a dual designation other channels such as discussion forums and public meetings) should be analysed carefully”. (designated both as a prison and a YOI) and hold both adult prisoners and young offenders. Vacancies The following tables show the number of offenders aged 18 to 20-years-old with a recorded residential address or proxy in Manchester and Trafford who were Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice held in predominant function male Young Offender how many job vacancies there were for (a) staff posts Institutions, predominant function male local prisons, and (b) Senior Civil Service posts in his Department predominant function female prisons and other prisons on 31 March (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012; and if he on a set day in each month where data are available will make a statement. [104576] since May 2009.

Manchester May Mar May Location 2009 Sep 2010 Nov 2010 Jan 2011 2011 2011 Jul 2011 Sep 2011 Nov 2011 Jan 2012

(a) Male Young Offender 258 190 189 187 157 147 116 116 127 138 Institutions (b) Male local Prisons 71 43 52 55 52 50 59 87 78 70 (c) Female Prisons 11 1087667989 (d)OtherPrisons797417161492126

Trafford May May Location 2009 Sep 2010 Nov 2010 Jan 2011 Mar 2011 2011 Jul 2011 Sep 2011 Nov 2011 Jan 2012

(a) Male Young Offender 6343731302923201611 Institutions (b) Male local Prisons 2956421837 (c) Female Prisons 4 0 I 2 2 3 2332 (d)OtherPrisons0100211153 813W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 814W

These figures have been drawn from administrative remanded in custody attached to the (a) Manchester IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording youth offending team (YOT) and (b) Trafford YOT system, are subject to possible errors with data entry who have been held in a (i) secure children’s home, (ii) and processing. secure training centre and (iii) under 18 young offender Information on offenders’ residences is provided by institution in each month since May 2009 to February offenders on reception into prison and recorded on a 2012. central IT system. Addresses can include a home address, These data have been provided by the Youth Justice an address to which offenders intend to return on Board (YJB). The YJB holds data at the YOT area discharge or next of kin address and these figures are level, not at the local authority level. YOT area data provided in the tables. may cover more than one local authority area; however, If no address is given, an offender’s committal court in this case the YOTs and the local authorities cover the address is used as a proxy for the area in which they are same geographic area. resident. These figures are also included in the tables. No address has been recorded and no court information This is based upon monthly snapshot data. Therefore is available for around 3% of all offenders, these figures one young person who is serving more than one month are excluded from the tables. in custody will be shown in more than one month in the table. Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many juvenile offenders from (a) The data from April 2011 onwards are provisional Manchester and (b) Trafford have been held in (i) a and will be finalised when the 2011-12 Youth Justice secure children’s home, (ii) a secure training centre and Statistics are published in 2013. (iii) a young offender institution in each month since These figures have been drawn from administrative May 2009. [105230] IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording Mr Blunt: The following table shows the number of system, are subject to possible errors with data entry juvenile offenders (aged 10 to 17) either sentenced or and processing and can be subject to change over time.

Manchester YOT Trafford YOT Secure children’s Secure training Young offender Secure children’s Secure training Young offender homes centres institutions homes centres institutions

2009 May 3 2 69 1 0 8 June 3 1 68 0 0 11 July 2 2 66 0 0 10 August 4 2 72 0 1 14 September 2 2 82 0 1 18 October 2 2 82 0 1 16 November 4 1 72 0 1 15 December 2 2 61 0 1 14

2010 January 4 3 68 1 1 15 February 5 2 64 1 2 15 March 3 5 61 1 2 16 April 2 5 58 0 3 18 May34630215 June 5 5 60 1 3 16 July 5 6 62 1 3 13 August 3 5 54 1 2 9 September 2 5 52 1 1 7 October 2 4 51 1 1 6 November 2 6 49 1 1 4 December 2 4 49 0 1 4

2011 January 2 5 46 0 1 4 February 2 6 54 1 0 5 March 3 3 47 0 0 5 April 5 4 43 2 0 3 May 4 4 51 2 0 3 June 4 6 48 2 0 3 July 8 5 37 1 1 4 August 7 4 45 0 0 5 September 7 2 38 0 1 6 October 6 3 43 0 1 6 815W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 816W

Manchester YOT Trafford YOT Secure children’s Secure training Young offender Secure children’s Secure training Young offender homes centres institutions homes centres institutions

November 4 4 35 0 1 8 December 1 2 42 0 0 6

2012 January 1 1 39 0 0 5 February 2 0 35 0 0 6 Notes: 1. YJB data referring to secure training centres (STCs), secure children’s homes (SCHs), and under 18 young offender institutions (YOIs). These do not include 18 to 21-year-olds held in YOI separate units for which the YJB do not hold data. This is based upon monthly snapshot data therefore one young person who is serving more than one month in custody, will be shown in more than one month in the table. The figures from April 2011 onwards are provisional. 2. Young people are defined as those aged 10 to 17 years of age, however some 18-year-olds remain in the secure estate for children and young people if they only have a short period of their sentence left to serve, to avoid disrupting their regimes (and are included in these figures). 3. The data come from the Youth Justice Board’s Secure Accommodation Clearing House System (SACHS). These figures have been drawn from administrativeIT systems, which, as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing and may be subject to change over time.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS England, between May 2010 and July 2010 of the 2009/10 academic year and full year figures for the Apprentices 2010/11 academic year, the latest period for which final data are available. Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Provisional information on the number of apprenticeship Business, Innovation and Skills how many starts by geography is published in a quarterly Statistical apprenticeship starts there were for 16 to 18-year-olds First Release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on in each year between 2007 and 2011. [104855] 29 March 2012: [holding answer 23 April 2012]: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ Mr Hayes Table 1 statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current shows the number of apprenticeship programme starts by learners aged under 19 for academic years 2006/07 to this may not however reflect end of year final figures. 2010/11, the latest full year for which final data are available. Aviation: Treaties Table 1: Apprenticeship programme starts by learners aged under 19, 2006/07 to 2010/11 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Full year Under 19 Apprenticeship starts for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to his 2006/07 105,600 answer of 12 December 2011, Official Report, column 2007/08 107,600 526W, if he will publish the Government response to 2008/09 99,400 the call for evidence concerning the ratification of the 2009/10 116,800 Cape Town convention. [104497] 2010/11 131,700 Notes: Norman Lamb: I aim to publish the Government 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest hundred. response to the call for evidence concerning the ratification 2. Age is based on age at the start of the programme. Source: of the Cape Town convention shortly. Individualised Learner Record Information on the number of apprenticeship starts Business: Government Assistance by age is published in a quarterly Statistical First Release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 29 March 2012 Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current of 26 March 2012, Official Report, columns 997-8W, Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for on business: government assistance, what the cost of Business, Innovation and Skills how many administration was of each of the business support apprenticeships have been created in (a) Stockton schemes referred to in the answer. [103741] North constituency, (b) Stockton South constituency, (c) Darlington, (d) Middlesbrough, (e) Mr Prisk [holding answer 18 April 2012]: Access to Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland Finance business support scheme—For the financial constituency, (f) Redcar, (g) Hartlepool, (h) the year 2011-12 the cost of administering the Enterprise North East and (i) England in the (i) 16 to 18, (ii) 19 to Finance Guarantee Scheme (EFG) and the ongoing 24 and (iii) over 25 years age category since May 2010. commitments from the preceding Small Firms Loan [105226] Guarantee Scheme (SFLG) is £680,000. The Technology Strategy Board’s (TSB) estimated Mr Hayes: I have made final data available in the overall administration cost figure for the 2011-12 financial Libraries of the House which show the number of year is £24.3 million. This will cover administration of apprenticeship programme starts in Stockton North, its Collaborative Research and Development, Smart, Stockton South, Darlington, Middlesbrough, Knowledge Transfer Partnerships and Networking for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, Redcar and Innovation business support schemes and other activities. Hartlepool constituencies, the North East region and It is not possible to provide separate administration 817W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 818W figures for each of the products as many of TSB’s Provider Amount1 (£) personnel work across the schemes and also in other areas. College of North West London 424,000 Designing Demand—£94,300 was spent in the 2011-12 Ealing, Hammersmith and West 717,000 London FY in administering this product. This covers Design Hackney Community College 150,000 Council staff costs. Hopwood Hall College 138,000 Information on the BIS staff costs element of Hull College 149,000 administration costs is available for the following business Joseph Chamberlain Sixth Form 195,000 support schemes: College Work Place Training, Including Apprenticeships—£1,026,253.90 Lambeth College 534,000 for the employment of 18.5 officials in the 2011-12 FY on Liverpool Community College 149,000 Apprenticeships. New College Nottingham 204,000 Business Link website—The administration cost of employing Newham College of Further 523,000 1.5 officials is currently £106,480.50 in a full financial year. Education Newham London Borough Council 181,000 Manufacturing Advisory service—£131,290.00 for the employment of two equivalent full time BIS officials in a financial year. Redbridge College 154,000 Salford City College 112,000 Administration costs for administering the business Sandwell College 50,000 support schemes referred to as follows are not available: South Birmingham College 337,000 High Growth Coaching; South Nottingham College (including 159,000 Helping Your Business Grow Internationally; the former Castle College) Regional Growth Fund. The Manchester College 274,000 Waltham Forest College 429,000 Companies: United Arab Emirates 1 Figures provided by the Skills Funding Agency and rounded to nearest 1,000. Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has EU Emissions Trading Scheme made of the number of UK companies that are based in the United Arab Emirates. [104411] Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Lamb: The British embassy in the United Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his Arab Emirates (UAE) state that there are some 5,000 Department has made of the effect on future levels of registered UK firms operating in the UAE, and British investment in UK industry of the introduction of the banks are highly committed there. EU Emissions Trading System Scheme. [103707] Data from the Office for National Statistics in the “Foreign Direct Investment—MA4 2010” publication Mr Prisk: In April 2009 the UK Government published shows that the UK had investments to the value £16.3 billion an impact assessment on the climate and energy package in Gulf Arabian countries in 2010. Based on the Office which included the revised Emissions Trading System for National Statistics (ONS) “Disclosure Control Policy” Directive. guidance, investment data for the United Arab Emirates A copy of the impact assessment can be found at: in 2010 is not publicly available, due to obligations to http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/ protect the confidentiality of data provided, for example 77_20090423091800_e_@@_euclimateenergypackage.pdf where it is based on a small number of data returns. In addition the Department commissioned The Centre English Language: Training for European Economic Research (ZEW) to produce on a report into the competiveness implications of the Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for EU Emissions Trading System (ETS) on UK industry, Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the written in 2010. ministerial statement of 29 February 2012, Official A copy of this report can be found at: Report, column 31WS, on English for speakers of other ftp://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/dp/dp10044.pdf languages, which colleges and training providers have received additional funding to deliver English language training in the 2011-12 academic year; and how much EU Emissions Trading Scheme: Aviation each provider has received. [103744]

Mr Hayes [holding answer 18 April 2012]: Funding Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for was accepted by the following 24 providers in the academic Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his year 2011/12. Department has made of the effect of the inclusion of aviation in the EU Emissions Trading System Scheme Provider Amount1 (£) on (a) jobs and (b) workforce skills. [103706]

Barking and Dagenham College 94,000 Birmingham Metropolitan College 330,000 Mr Prisk: In July 2010 the UK Government published Bournville College of Further 243,000 an impact assessment on the second stage of transposition Education of EU legislation to include Aviation in the European Bolton College 108,000 Union Emissions Trading System (ETS). However, there Bradford College 208,000 was no assessment of the direct impact of the aviation City and Islington College 707,000 ETS on jobs and workforce skills. 819W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 820W

A copy of the impact assessment can be found at: Mr Willetts: As we set out in the Higher Education http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/Consultations/ White Paper, our intention is that all providers that euetsaviationsecondstage/909-ia-second-stage-transposition- access student support funding will, in future, be subject euets.pdf to the same standards for quality, dispute resolution, information, access (if charging above the basic tuition EU Emissions Trading Scheme: Manufacturing charge), financial sustainability, reformed student number Industries controls and tuition charge caps.

Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Industrial Development Act 1982: Northern Ireland Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his Department has made of the effect on UK Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for manufacturing of the introduction of the EU Business, Innovation and Skills when he will publish Emissions Trading Scheme. [103708] the Government’s response to the consultation on removal of Northern Ireland’s 100 per cent automatic Mr Prisk: In April 2009 the UK Government published assisted area status as part of its proposed update of an impact assessment on the climate and energy package the Industrial Development Act 1982. [105301] which included the revised Emissions Trading System (ETS) Directive. Norman Lamb: We intend to publish the Government’s A copy of the impact assessment can be found at: response shortly. http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/ This follows ministerial and official level discussion 77_20090423091800_e_@@_euclimateenergypackaae.pdf between the Department for Business Skills and Innovation We monitor the impact of the ETS and of other UK and the Department for Enterprise, Trade and Investment climate policy on the manufacturing sector with a view Northern Ireland. to ensuring the UK sector remains competitive in Europe and globally. Manpower

Fossil Fuels: Export Credit Guarantees Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for of 1 February 2011, Official Report, column 717W, on Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer departmental degrees, what proportion of staff in his of 10 October 2011, Official Report, column 271W, on Department identified themselves as part of the science fossil fuels: export credits guarantees, whether he plans and engineering profession in every year for which that to announce his decision before the end of the 2010-12 information is available. [104138] Session. [103659] Norman Lamb [holding answer 19 April 2012]: The Norman Lamb: The Government expect to make an proportion of staff that have identified themselves as announcement by the time of the summer recess. part of the science and engineering profession within Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is: Higher Education 2010: 0.44% 2011: 1.03% Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012: 0.26% Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer (Above figures are for the core Department) given by the Minister for Universities and Science of 8 These figures date from the coalition Government March 2012, Official Report, column 858W, on higher coming to office in May 2010. education, whether due diligence checks are a mandatory requirement for all courses wishing to be Motor Vehicles designated for a higher education purpose. [104940]

Mr Willetts: At present all providers applying for Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for courses to be designated for the first time are subject to Business, Innovation and Skills what the value of the due diligence reviews. automotive sector is to the economy; how many people are employed in the industry; what proportion of the As we set out in the Higher Education White Paper, industry operates in each region; and what the industry our intention is that all providers that access student spent on its supply chains in the UK in 2011. [101977] support funding will, in future, be subject to the same standards for quality, dispute resolution, information, Mr Prisk: According to the National Accounts published access (if charging above the basic tuition charge), by the Office for National Statistics the automotive financial sustainability, reformed student number controls manufacture sector accounted for £4.4 billion gross and tuition charge caps. value added in 2010, 0.3% of the UK economy. It also provided employment for 129,000 across the UK. Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer The value of goods and services consumed in production given by the Minister for Universities and Science of by the automotive manufacturing industry was £32 billion 8 March 2012, Official Report, column 858W, on in 2009; the latest year for which this data is available. higher education, whether he plans to put due diligence The following table details the regional breakdown of checks on a statutory footing. [104941] employment in the automotive manufacturing sector. 821W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 822W

Employment in the Automotive Manufacturing Industry 2010 by region National Careers Service: Location Regions Employment Percentage of total

North-east 11,500 9 Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for North-west 17,100 13 Business, Innovation and Skills how many locations he Yorkshire and the 8,800 7 expects the proposed walk in service of the National Humber Careers Service to be offered. [105341] East midlands 10,000 8 West midlands 36,800 28 Mr Hayes: The National Careers Service currently East of England 9,300 7 operates from around 3,250 different locations in London 4,700 4 communities across England. We are trialling the walk South-east 10,800 8 in service in a further 419 other locations across England South-west 6,400 5 which include Citizens’ Advice Bureaux, shopping malls, Wales 8,200 6 mobile libraries and the use of peripatetic workers. The Scotland 2,900 2 walk in service is trialling the use of a triage approach Northern Ireland 2,700 2 to determine the needs of the individual and ensure Source: they have access to the most appropriate support. When Business Registers Employment Survey 2010 (ONS) the trials have been evaluated I expect those aspects National Careers Service which proved most successful to become part of the National Careers Service offer. Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Pay Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to his Department’s publication, National Careers Service: the Right Advice at the Right Time, if he will expand Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for on the definition of distant from the labour market in Business, Innovation and Skills what the average wage relation to the criteria for receiving face-to-face return is for adults achieving a level 3 qualification in guidance sessions from the National Careers Service. each of the last 10 years. [104727] [105342] Mr Hayes: BIS Research Paper Number 53 “Returns Mr Hayes: The National Careers Service targets several to Intermediate and Low Level Vocational Qualifications” priority groups who can receive up to three free separate provides the Department’s latest estimates of the wage face to face careers guidance sessions; these include returns to vocational qualifications at level 3. This those distant from the labour market. This group is report is published at the following link: defined as adults who are not in receipt of benefits but http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/further-education-skills/ who are not working and who are interested in returning docs/r/11-1282-returns-intermediate-and-low-level- to the labour market. The group includes those who vocational-qualifications have had caring responsibilities, women returners and The wage returns in employment—compared to similar learners who have just completed full-time training or individuals with level 2 qualifications—are summarised education and have not registered as unemployed. Any in the following table. The report does not estimate an adult aged 19 or over who approaches the National average return across all level 3 qualifications, nor break Careers Service can receive one free face to face careers down returns according to the year in which the guidance session. qualification was achieved.

Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Qualification type Wage returns (percentage) Business, Innovation and Skills how he proposes to Advanced Apprenticeship 22 involve employers more directly in the provision of BTEC 20 advice and guidance to young people on a face-to-face City and Guilds 15 basis under the National Careers Service. [105343] RSA 16 NVQ/SVQ 10 Mr Hayes: The National Careers Service will work with employers and employer bodies to ensure that BIS Research Paper Number 47 “The Long-Term young people and adults have access to high quality Effect of Vocational Qualifications on Labour labour market information that reflects employer needs. Market Outcomes” assesses the earnings returns for It will also draw on employer related careers guidance individuals who have achieved level 3 qualifications, resources, such as those offered by National Skills compared to similar individuals who started but did not Academies, Sector Skills Councils and Chartered Institutes. achieve them. This report is published at the following Schools will be placed under a duty to secure access link: to independent and impartial careers guidance for their http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/further-education-skills/ pupils from September. The Department for Education docs/l/11-1035-long-term-effect-of-vocational- recently published statutory guidance to support schools qualifications.pdf in planning for the introduction of this new duty. This highlights the importance of offering young people Postgraduate Education insights into the world of work through a wide range of careers activities, including engagement with local employers. Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Schools are free to determine the most appropriate Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to forms of engagement but might consider mentoring, produce a White Paper on post-graduate education. workplace visits, work experience and employer talks. [104913] 823W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 824W

Mr Willetts: There are currently no plans to produce for web monitoring purposes (currently holding records a White Paper on post-graduate education. The Higher back to 2008) and if their respondents use email then the Education White Paper: Students at the Heart of the IP address of their hosting server is stored for 90 days. System included discussions of post-graduate education. Public Consultation Regional Planning and Development

Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State Innovation and Skills which of his Department’s for Business, Innovation and Skills what the cost to the consultations have been externally verified since 2007; public purse was of regional development funding in for what reason and by whom such verification was each of the last five years. [104967] carried out; and what the cost to the public purse was of such verification. [104085] Mr Prisk: The Public Expenditure Statistical Analysis 2011 sets out information on Government spending: Mr Prisk: Any monitoring of the effectiveness of the http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm81/8104/ consultation process is undertaken internally in the 8104.pdf Department and is in line with the HM Government Table 4.2 Public sector expenditure on services by function, Code of Practice on Consultation. 1988-89 to 2010-11 shows total Government expenditure on enterprise and economic development. Public Consultation: Internet In the same publication Table 9.8a Identifiable expenditure on economic affairs (of which: enterprise Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, and economic development) by country and regions, Innovation and Skills whether his Department collects 2005-06 to 2010-11 shows enterprise and economic the IP addresses of online respondents to its development expenditure by country and region. consultations. [104086] Alternatively, expenditure can be estimated by a ’bottom- Mr Prisk: The Department for Business, Innovation up’ approach of major spending programmes, although and Skills (BIS) does not collect the IP addresses of there are likely to be funding overlaps between activities. respondents to its consultations. However, the Intellectual Between the period 2006-11 BIS provided a contribution Property Office (an Agency of BIS) stores the IP addresses to the funding of the regional development agencies when respondents access their online consultation forms (RDAs), along with other departments.

Table 1: RDA funding Cash (£ million) 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Regional development agencies 2,328 2,265 2,177 2,249 1,429

The following regional aid programmes were also funded, which may have had contributions from RDAs already outlined above:

Table 2: Regional aid programmes Cash (£ million) 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Selective Finance for Investment in England (SFIE) 14.3 44.3 51.3 28.0 17.7 Regional selective assistance (RSA) 51,6 17.8 8.9 7.7 1.0 Grant for Business Investment (GBI) — — 0.15 10.7 23.7

In addition, between 2007 and 2013, £845 million has trade unions, large retailers including the large supermarkets, been allocated to match Structural Funds received from the CBI, the Church of England and Members of both the European Union, although this figure may include Houses. any contributions from the RDAs already outlined above and other sources. The unique nature of the Olympics and Paralympics makes an accurate assessment of the potential impact Sunday Trading difficult. In 2006, as part of a wider review of Sunday Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State trading restrictions, the Government commissioned Indepen for Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he Consulting Ltd to carry out an analysis of the economic has had on the potential impact on businesses of a costs and benefits of easing restrictions on large shops trading on Sundays. The conclusion of the cost benefit change in trading hours. [103941] analysis was that the net economic benefit of full Mr Prisk [holding answer 23 April 2012]: I have held liberalisation could be worth around £1.4 billion per discussions with a wide range of businesses, including annum. Should the Government ever decide to look at a the Association of Convenience Stores, the National more permanent relaxation of these regulations then a Federation of Retail Newsagents and the Federation of full impact assessment, including the impact on small Small Business. In addition we have held meetings with shops, would be carried out. 825W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 826W

Trade Competitiveness Better regulation Reducing unnecessary regulation and cutting red tape Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for is one of the Government’s core priorities. We have: Business, Innovation and Skills what recent steps his Introduced the one-in, one-out system requiring Government Department has taken to assist small and medium- Departments to assess the net cost to business of complying with sized businesses in developing their competitiveness in any proposed regulation. (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency and (b) Launched the Red Tape Challenge: a comprehensive thematic the London borough of Bexley. [104730] review which aims to identify regulations that could be removed, simplified or done in a different way. Mr Prisk: We have introduced a number of measures Announced sector-based reviews of regulation to ensure it is to help businesses across the UK increase their enforced at the lowest possible cost to business. competitiveness and ensure their businesses thrive and Introduced a set of Guiding Principles, which will ensure that grow through these challenging economic times. These British businesses are not put at a disadvantage, relative to their include: European competitors. Helping businesses access the advice and support they To reduce barriers to businesses taking on new staff Government need have announced significant deregulation of employment law. We have put in place a range of services, which Announced that we will scrap or improve 84% of Health and include: Safety regulation. An improved Business Link website: Ensuring a world-class skills base www.businesslink.gov.uk Government’s ambition is to have a world-class skills including a new Growth and Improvement Service, offering a base that provides a consistent source of competitive range of business tools. Specific advice on increasing competitiveness advantage. Key measures include: can be found at: Leadership and management skills support for high growth http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/ SMEs to help them develop their management capability. detail?itemId=1073790713&type=RESOURCES Package of measures to help businesses take on apprentices A mentoring portal: including taking steps to boost the quality of apprenticeship provision, changing the relationship between employers and the www.mentorsme.co.uk state on skills with the £250 million Employer Ownership Pilot providing access to 15,000 mentors that can support and guide routing funding directly to businesses to drive the skills market. their development. Encouraging small firms to take on their first apprentice A new Business Coaching for Growth (BCG) service, providing through the £1 billion youth contract, which offers employers high quality business coaching support for small and medium-sized with up to 50 employees an incentive payment of £1,500 to take enterprises (SMEs) with high growth potential. BCG will also on up to 40,000 apprentices aged 16 to 24, and wage incentives for provide a highly networked service that fast-tracks businesses to small firms to take on young apprentices. other relevant forms of support and valued networks such as UK Trade and Investment, the Manufacturing Advisory Service, and Improving the apprenticeships programme and reducing red business angel networks. tape, for instance removing all excess health and safety requirements. In October 2011, we announced details of the new £57 million Reducing the time it takes an employer to recruit an apprentice contract to deliver the Manufacturing Advisory Service, focusing to one month. on helping SME manufacturers in England develop advanced Encouraging exporting SMEs manufacturing capabilities. Budget 2012 set out an ambition to more than double Helping businesses access the finance they need annual UK exports to £1 trillion by 2020. In addition to Ensuring the flow of credit to viable SMEs is essential measures previously announced to help UK businesses for supporting growth and is a core priority for this export, we have recently announced: Government. We are providing a comprehensive package We will expand the overseas role of UK Export Finance to of support for small businesses, including: enable it to develop finance packages that could help UK exporters A new National Loan Guarantee Scheme: Up to £20 billion of secure opportunities identified through UK Trade and Investment’s guarantees for bank funding will be available over two years High Value Opportunities programme. allowing banks to offer lower cost lending to SMEs. Help secure temporary private sector office space overseas for £1.2 billion of funding available to invest through the Business new UK exporters in high growth countries where such services Finance Partnership to help businesses access non-bank finance. are difficult to obtain. Continuation of the Enterprise Finance Guarantee (EFG) We are continuing to increase UK Export Finance’s regional scheme until 2014/15, providing, subject to demand, over £2 presence in the UK to support SMEs seeking trade finance. billion of additional lending over the next four years. Encouraging innovative businesses The Export Enterprise Finance Guarantee scheme (ExEFG) launched in April 2011, as part of a menu of extra help for Government have launched their Innovation and exporters. Research Strategy for Growth which sets out its plans Continuation of the Government’s Enterprise Capital Funds to boost economic growth through investment in innovation programme, providing for more than £300 million of venture and research alongside how it will leverage the significant capital investment to address the equity gap for early stage public investment to drive sustainable growth. The strategy, innovative SMEs with the highest growth potential. published in December 2011, had at its heart a £75 million Encouraging Business Angel investment through a new £50 package of funding for innovative SMEs, which will million Business Angel Co-Investment Fund. include the re-launch of the Grant for R&D under the A package of investment readiness support through the Business Smart brand, expansion of the Small Business Research Coaching for Growth programme and a national network of Initiative, Innovation Vouchers and the extension of the experienced mentors of SMEs working with private and voluntary Technology Strategy Board’s Launch pad to support sector providers and the banks. SME innovation in defined geographic areas. 827W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 828W

UK Trade and Industry Defence and Security Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Organisation: Human Rights whether her Department collects the IP addresses of respondents to its consultations. [104068] Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what consideration was Mr David Jones: The Wales Office does not routinely given to human rights issues in developing UK Trade undertake consultations. However, it is not the Department’s and Industry’s Exporting for Growth Strategy. [103353] policy that IP addresses of respondents would be collected if one were to be carried out. Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) launched its five-year strategy, “Britain Open for Business”, in Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales May 2011. This strategy was developed in compliance whether her Department accepts anonymous with the general frameworks set out in Government contributions to its consultations. [104069] policy guidance, including those relating to human rights issues. Mr David Jones: The Wales Office does not routinely The UK Government are committed to protecting undertake consultations. However, the Department’s and promoting respect for human rights among UK standard procedure is that anonymous contributions companies operating overseas. We have made clear that would be accepted if one were to be carried out. we will not pursue potential trade opportunities that may have an adverse affect on human rights. However, Public Sector: Pay where we have concerns we will not hesitate to raise them. We stand ready to help British firms with advice Susan Elan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for on their political and reputational risk management. Wales what assessment she has made of the potential The UK Government are committed to the OECD effect of regional pay on the salaries of public sector Guidelines for Multinational Enterprises, a set of voluntary workers in Wales. [104609] principles and standards for responsible business conduct including human rights, and staff overseas are encouraged Mrs Gillan: Local pay was brought in by the last to promote these principles to British companies operating Government and was introduced to HM Courts Service in international markets. in 2008. At the time of the 2011 autumn statement the Government asked the independent pay review bodies to consider how public sector pay can be made more WALES responsive to local labour markets. The review bodies are expected to report by July 2012. Until formal proposals Government: Ministerial Meetings have been made by review bodies and civil service departments, it will not be possible to assess the effect Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for on Wales or any other part of the UK. Wales what meetings (a) Ministers, (b) special advisers and (c) officials in her Department have had Where pay arrangements are devolved in Wales, it with (i) Sarah Southern and (ii) Peter Cruddas since will be for the Welsh Government to decide whether 12 May 2010. [104318] they wish to adopt any proposals to ensure that flexibility in the labour market is fully reflected in Wales. Mrs Gillan: No one at the Wales Office has met with (i) Sarah Southern and (ii) Peter Cruddas since 12 May Retirement 2010. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Legal Costs how many (a) civil servants and (b) senior civil servants have retired from her Department since May Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales 2010; and if she will make a statement. [104142] how much her Department spent on fees for legal work in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if she will make a Mr David Jones: Four staff have retired since May statement. [104592] 2010; none of the staff were senior civil servants. Mr David Jones: The information requested can be found in the following table: Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many staff of her Department retired in (a) Financial year Legal fees paid (£) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; how many of such staff were taking early retirement in each such year; and if she 2010-11 0 will make a statement. [104590] 2011-12 25,250 Public Consultation Mr David Jones: One member of staff retired in 2010-11, and three in 2011-12. No staff took early Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales retirement. which of her Department’s consultations have been Vacancies externally verified since 2007; for what reason and by whom such verification was carried out; and what the cost to the public purse was of such verification. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales [104067] how many job vacancies there were for (a) staff posts and (b) senior civil service posts in her Department on Mr David Jones: The Wales Office has not undertaken 31 March (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012; and if she any consultations since 2007. will make a statement. [104591] 829W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 830W

Mr David Jones: There were five job vacancies on Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for 31 March in 2010; eight vacancies in 2011; and three Scotland whether responses to his Department’s vacancies in 2012. None of these vacancies were for: consultation on Scotland’s constitutional future that senior civil service posts. have been made anonymously without any identification can be reported on in the final analysis. [104461] SCOTLAND David Mundell: All responses to our consultation Devolution were received by email or by post. This means that all of our responses can be identified by a single unique Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for identifier: either an email or postal address. 101 submissions Scotland what recent devolution issues the Advocate- that were not uniquely identifiable were not included in General has considered; and if he will make a our analysis, as we could not be certain they expressed statement. [104500] legitimate and individual views.

David Mundell: The hon. Member asked a similar Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for question on 28 February 2012, Official Report, column Scotland whether any procedures for his Department’s 216W. consultation on Scotland’s constitutional future have Since 28 February 2012, the Advocate-General for differed from the standard procedures for government Scotland has received a total of 42 minutes notifying consultation. [104462] him of devolution issues, one of which related to civil matters. David Mundell: The consultation was run in accordance with standard procedures, other than with the duration Legal Costs of the consultation, which was reduced to eight weeks, rather than 12. This was in order to enable respondents Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for to consider whether the Scotland Bill should be used to Scotland how much his Department spent on fees for facilitate a referendum and to ensure sufficient time was legal work in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he available to amend the Bill, if this was judged to be the will make a statement. [104583] best course of action. David Mundell: The Scotland Office incurred no Retirement expenditure on external fees for legal work in 2010-11 or 2011-12. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Public Consultation Scotland how many (a) civil servants and (b) senior civil servants have retired from his Department since Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland May 2010; and if he will make a statement. [104145] which of his Department’s consultations have been externally verified since 2007; for what reason and by David Mundell: No Scotland Office staff have taken whom such verification was carried out; and what the age retirement since May 2010. cost to the public purse was of such verification. [104058] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many staff of his Department retired in David Mundell: The analysis of all consultations (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; how many of such staff undertaken by the Scotland Office since 2007 has been were taking early retirement in each such year; and if carried out within the Department. he will make a statement. [104581]

Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell: No staff in the Scotland Office have whether his Department collects the IP addresses of taken age retirement in 2010-11 or 2011-12. respondents to its consultations. [104059] As all staff in the Scotland Office are on secondment David Mundell: We do not record the IP addresses of from other Government bodies, mainly the Scottish respondents to our consultations. Government and the Ministry of Justice, these bodies remain the employer and have the responsibility for the Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland operation of retirement arrangements. Seven staff left whether his Department accepts anonymous under voluntary departure arrangements run by their contributions to its consultations. [104060] parent bodies during 2011-12. David Mundell: The Government’s Code of Practice Sovereignty on Consultation states at paragraph 6.1 that “All responses (both written responses and those fed in through Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for other channels such as discussion forums and public meetings) Scotland if he will have discussions with the Scottish should be analysed carefully.” Government on its plans to withdraw from NATO in In the consultation on Scotland’s constitutional future, the event that Scotland becomes independent. [103813] the Scotland Office analysed all responses received, as long as they could be individually identified. 101 David Mundell: The Scotland Office is not making submissions that were not uniquely identifiable were plans for separation as we are confident that people in not included in our analysis, as we could not be certain Scotland will continue to support the United Kingdom they expressed legitimate and individual views. in any referendum. The Scottish Government must set 831W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 832W out their proposals for separation, including a clear As at 31 March each year position on membership of international organisations such as NATO. 201020112012 Senior civil 111 Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland service posts how many responses to the UK Government’s Staff posts 0 0 4 consultation on Scotland’s constitutional future have been submitted using a UK government computer. The filling of vacancies is kept under constant review [104106] and recruitment action is only taken when there is a business need to fill a post. David Mundell: We did not take account of which computers were used by people responding to the consultation on Scotland’s constitutional future. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Afghanistan how many anonymous contributions have been received to the consultation on Scotland’s Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign constitutional future. [104107] and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment his Department has made of the report by Human Rights Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Watch entitled Afghanistan Moral Crimes; and what Scotland how many anonymous submissions have been representations his Department has made to the made to his Department’s consultation on Scotland’s Afghan Government on ending the wrongful constitutional future. [104124] imprisonment of women and girls. [103828]

David Mundell: All of the responses to our recent Alistair Burt: The report highlights the significant consultation on Scotland’s constitutional future were challenges that women and girls in Afghanistan continue received by e-mail or by post. This means that all of our to face in their daily lives, reflecting deeply embedded responses can be identified by a single unique identifier: traditional conservative social values and culture. either an e-mail or postal address. Embassy officials in Kabul work alongside our 101 responses which could not be uniquely identified international partners to monitor the situation of Afghan in this way were not included in the consultation. women and to press the Afghan Government to uphold their national and international human rights commitments, Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland including the Law on the Elimination of Violence Against how many responses to the consultation on Scotland’s Women and the UN Convention on the Elimination of constitutional future have been received from political All Forms of Discrimination Against Women. Officials parties. [104108] in Kabul and the Provincial Reconstruction Team in Helmand Province are also supporting the Afghan David Mundell: Responses were received from the Government to reform the prison sector in line with Scottish Conservative and Unionist party, Scottish Labour, international standards, including the treatment of women. the Scottish Liberal Democrats and the Scottish National party. Egypt

Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether pro-forma responses to his Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Department’s consultation on Scotland’s Department is taking to support (a) security sector constitutional future will be treated differently from reform in Egypt and (b) Egyptian civil society to hold other responses to the consultation. [104125] security and justice providers to account. [105068]

David Mundell: Each response to the consultation on Alistair Burt: We believe it is important that effective Scotland’s constitutional future was treated on its own state instruments of security are put in place in Egypt. merits. We are grateful to all those people who took the Under the Arab Partnership Strategy the UK is providing time to respond to the consultation, and we did not support for media and civil society organisations to discount individual views, simply because individuals hold public officials and services to account. With other used a particular format to convey them. relevant Departments we are exploring ways to provide direct support for security sector reform in Egypt, including possible work with political influencers and relevant Vacancies NGOs to increase their understanding of relevant issues, and the need to ensure their voice is heard in establishing Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for an accountable security apparatus. Scotland how many job vacancies there were for (a) The British Government have continued to seek staff posts and (b) senior Civil Service posts in his assurances from the Egyptian authorities of their Department on 31 March (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) commitment to implement human rights throughout 2012; and if he will make a statement. [104582] the Ministry of Interior and its institutions. Ministers have also raised our concerns about recent action against David Mundell: The number of vacancies is provided NGOs. Following the violence in Egypt in November in the following table: and December last year, the Secretary of State for 833W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 834W

Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. India Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), called on the Egyptian authorities to respect the right of Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for peaceful protest, hold those responsible to account, and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what reports release all those detained for peacefully expressing their he has received of (a) the use of anti-conversion laws views. He urged the authorities to make good on their in India and (b) the loss of scheduled caste status and promises to end military trials for civilians. its accompanying benefits for Dalits in India who adopt religions other than Hinduism, Buddhism or EU Staff Sikhism; and if he will raise these issues with the Government of India; [103818] Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what assessment he has made of the statement by Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many British the Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief nationals are serving as EU civil servants; and what on the use of laws and bills on religious conversion in proportion of the total number of EU civil servants several states of India to persecute Christians and this represents. [103877] Muslims; and if he will raise this issue with the Government of India. [103820] Mr Lidington: 2,157 British nationals work as EU civil servants across the EU institutions. An exact aggregate Mr Jeremy Browne: We strongly support the work of number of staff for all EU institutions is not available, the UN Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion or so we cannot give this as an accurate proportion of the Belief and encourage states to engage with his total. However, the European Personnel Selection Office recommendations. (EPSO) estimates that the European Commission, We regularly raise issues faced by minority communities European Parliament, Council Secretariat, European in India, including caste issues and anti-conversion Court of Justice, Court of Auditors, EU Ombudsman, laws, with the Indian Government both bilaterally and EU Committees, and the Data Protection Supervisor through the EU/India Human Rights Dialogue. We employ on aggregate around 47,000 staff in total. Based intend to raise these issues again at the upcoming on these figures we estimate that around 4.6% of total dialogue due to take place in New Delhi later this year. staff in the major EU institutions are British nationals. More specific figures are available for some of the Israel: Palestinians major EU institutions. In the European Commission, 1,134 British nationals are employed, representing 4.8% Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for of its staff. In the Council Secretariat, 96 British nationals Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent are employed, representing 3.05% of its staff. The European discussions he had at the UN on the withdrawal of Parliament estimates that it employs around 220 British Israel from occupied Palestinian territories. [105065] nationals, representing 3.5% of its staff. Alistair Burt: The UN Security Council (UNSC) Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for discusses the situation in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Territories on a monthly basis. he has had on increasing the number of British The UNSC last discussed this issue on 23 April, when nationals applying to be civil servants for the EU. the UK underlined the need for a negotiated two-state [103878] solution. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Mr Lidington: As part of the Foreign and Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Commonwealth Office communications campaign to (Yorks) (Mr Hague), also discussed the middle east increase the number of British nationals applying to be peace process during the UNSC debate on ‘The Situation civil servants in the EU, I have engaged with the media in the Middle East: Challenges and Opportunities’ that and other interested parties to promote awareness of he chaired on 12 March. EU careers. A successful campaign last year resulted in a 30% rise in applications and we will continue our Overseas Companies efforts to drive up the number of UK recruits to the EU institutions. A shortage of British staff in the EU Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign undermines our influence in the EU. British nationals and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has need to be equally represented throughout the EU made of human rights issues faced by UK companies institutions so that British culture, attitudes, laws and doing business abroad; and if he will publish such ways of thinking are considered when formulating policy assessments on the Overseas Business Risk section of or legislation. the UK Trade and Investment website. [104908] Our 2012 Communications Campaign has included hosting an EU Careers event targeted at ‘message Mr Jeremy Browne: We are clear that companies have multipliers’ such as professional bodies and university a responsibility to take full account of human rights lecturers to help raise awareness of the EU civil service, considerations in their work abroad, which is why we visits to UK universities by FCO officials, an event at strongly supported the endorsement of the UN Guiding the British embassy for British expatriates in Paris, the Principles on Business and Human Rights at the Human creation of a dedicated micro site containing all of the Rights Council in June 2011. As part of the forthcoming information a candidate would need to apply for a Government strategy on Business and Human Rights, career in the EU, as well as online and print advertising, we will be developing the Overseas Business Risk service and use of social media. further to include more specific information on human 835W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 836W rights issues in the 96 markets listed on the service, as Compliance with BMP is not mandatory but where well as a new designated Human Rights page with links reports of non-compliant UK ships are received, the to further sources of information. We expect to implement Department for Transport follows up with the shipping these changes in June 2012. company. Current reporting shows UK flagged ships are over 95% compliant. Public Consultation The Government recognise that the engagement of armed guards is an option to protect human life onboard Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign UK registered ships from the threat of piracy in exceptional and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Department circumstances and when it is lawful to do so. In collects the IP addresses of online respondents to its December 2011, the Department for Transport consultations. [104101] published “Interim guidance to UK flagged shipping on the use of armed guards to defend against the threat Mr Lidington: No. of piracy in exceptional circumstances”. The Department has committed to review the Interim Guidance within Somalia 12 months (by December 2012).

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Sudan: South Sudan Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information his Department holds on the number of UK-registered Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for ships that encountered pirates off the coast of Somalia Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his but avoided capture in each of the last five years. Department is taking to reduce the possibility of [104260] armed conflict between Sudan and South Sudan over the Heglig Oilfield. [104031] Mike Penning: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department for Transport. Mr Bellingham: As I made clear in my statement of The Department for Transport does not hold statistics 11 April, and as the statement issued by the President of on the number of UK-registered ships that have the UN Security Council on 12 April also made clear, encountered pirates off the coast of Somalia but avoided both countries must cease all provocative acts in each capture in each of the last five years. However, data other’s territory. South Sudan must withdraw its forces provided by the Maritime Security Centre (Horn of from Sudanese territory immediately, and without Africa) (MSCHOA) detail eight attacks on UK flagged preconditions. Sudan must end all cross-border military merchant ships during the past three years. action, including aerial bombing. We are working urgently with our partners in the UN Security Council and the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for African Union to apply pressure to both parties to this Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information end, and to bring them back to the negotiating table. his Department holds on the number of UK-registered Our embassies in Khartoum and Juba are delivering ships captured by pirates off the coast of Somalia in these messages locally at every opportunity. each of the last five years. [104261] Syria Mike Penning: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department for Transport. Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Two UK flagged ships have been captured by Somali Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what further steps pirates in this period. These were taken within two (a) his Department and (b) the EU has taken to weeks of one another in December 2009 and January impose restrictive measures against the Government of 2010. Both ships were eventually released on payment Syria. [104174] of a ransom; no UK nationals were involved. In October 2009 Paul and Rachel Chandler were Alistair Burt: The British Government continue to taken hostage by gunmen in the Indian Ocean while work closely with EU partners to impose restrictive sailing their yacht from the Seychelles towards Tanzania. measures against the Syrian regime. Most recently, on They were eventually released in November 2010. 23 April the EU agreed a ban on the export of a further list of goods, technology and equipment which might Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for be used in the future for internal repression to Syria, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is and includes items that could be used to produce chemical taking to improve the safety of ships off the coast of or biological weapons. The EU also agreed a ban on the Somalia. [104262] export of luxury goods to Syria. This latest round follows 13 previous rounds of EU Mike Penning: I have been asked to reply on behalf of sanctions aimed at increasing the political and economic the Department for Transport. pressure on the Syrian regime. Since 1 December 2011, The Department for Transport strongly recommends the EU has agreed: all UK ships follow the advice included in “Best sanctions on additional individuals and entities, including Management Practices” (BMP). This is industry and close Assad family members. A total of 126 individuals and 41 military developed advice to international shipping on entities are on the EU sanctions list; measures to avoid, deter and delay acts of piracy while additional sanctions on Syrian banks, including the Central in the ″high risk area″ (HRA), including reporting to Bank of Syria; the counter piracy cell, UK Maritime Trade Operations, a ban on the export of equipment that could be used by the in Dubai. Syrian regime for communications surveillance; 837W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 838W

restrictions on Syrian Government access to gold and other TREASURY precious metals markets; an arms embargo; and Income Tax Threshold a ban on Syrian cargo flights operating in the EU. The UK will continue to push for the EU and 20. Dr Huppert: To ask the Chancellor of the international partners to maintain the pressure on the Exchequer how many people in (a) Cambridge Syrian regime, including through the Friends of Syria constituency and (b) the UK will no longer pay group. income tax as a result of changes to the income tax threshold announced since May 2010. [104809] Travel Mr Gauke: The Government’s changes to the personal Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign allowance will benefit 25 million individuals and take 2 and Commonwealth Affairs how many journeys (a) million low income individuals out of income tax by Ministers and (b) officials from his Department made April next year. by (i) train, (ii) coach and (iii) Government car in an For the East of England, to which Cambridge official capacity in each of the last six months. [103638] constituency belongs, 176,000 will be brought out of tax. Reliable estimates of numbers taken out of income Mr Lidington: During the period 16 October 2011 to tax at constituency level are not available. 16 April 2012 the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Unemployment for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), made 13 train journeys and no coach journeys in an official capacity. Details of car journeys cannot be provided without 21. Gemma Doyle: To ask the Chancellor of the incurring disproportionate costs. Exchequer what assessment he has made of the Office The following table sets out the journeys undertaken for Budget Responsibility’s most recent forecast of by train and coach by the Under-Secretary of State for levels of unemployment in 2012. [104810] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), Miss Chloe Smith: The Office for Budget Responsibility the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth published the official forecast for UK unemployment Office, the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), on 21 March 2012, taking full account of Budget the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and announcements. Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member This forecast was broadly unchanged since the autumn for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), the Minister statement, with unemployment expected to fall back of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right from the start of 2013 as growth picks up. hon. and noble Friend Lord Howell of Guildford, and myself. Details of journeys undertaken by my noble Since the autumn statement 2011, the Government Friend Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint and details of car have taken important steps to support private sector job journeys cannot be provided without incurring creation and reduce unemployment. The £20 billion disproportionate cost. National Loan Guarantee Scheme launched last month will help smaller business across the UK access cheaper Minister Train Coach finance, and the £1 billion Youth Contract went live this month, providing employment and education opportunities Henry Bellingham 4 2 for up to half a million young people. Jeremy Browne 3 0 Alistair Burt 10 0 23. Duncan Hames: To ask the Chancellor of the Lord Howell 0 0 Exchequer what assessment he has made of the David Lidington 6 0 potential effects of the Budget on local and regional variations in unemployment trends. [104812] Records of travel undertaken by officials are not kept in the form requested and cannot be provided without Miss Chloe Smith: The Office for Budget Responsibility incurring disproportionate cost. published the official forecast for UK unemployment Value for money and budgetary restraints mean all on 21 March 2012, taking full account of Budget Ministers and staff look to travel by the most cost announcements. effective means available. This forecast was broadly unchanged since the autumn statement, with unemployment expected to fall back Yemen from the start of 2013 as growth picks up. The OBR has not published forecasts at the local and regional level. Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government have taken key initiatives to support Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs who will represent growth locally and in the regions, by introducing 24 new the UK at the next Friends of Yemen meeting. [105070] enterprise zones; allocating £2.4 billion to the Regional Growth Fund and providing £730 million to local enterprise Alistair Burt: The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia will partnerships through the Growing Places Fund and host the next Friends of Yemen meeting in Riyadh on considering powerful incentives for local authorities to 23 May 2012. There will be UK ministerial representation go for growth through the Local Government Resource at the meeting. Review. 839W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 840W

Interest Rates Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Nadine Dorries: To ask the Chancellor of the The Export Control Organisation (ECO) within the Exchequer what representations he has received on the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is effect on the economy of a rise in interest rates. responsible for the processing of export licences applications [104794] for strategic goods (military and dual-use items). The ECO does not charge for strategic export licence Mr Hoban: An increase in interest rates would be applications. The ECO has discussed with exporters the particularly damaging to an economy with the UK’s possibility of introducing fees to recover the cost of level of indebtedness. A one percentage point rise in the processing export licences, but there are no plans to cost of government borrowing would add around introduce fees for the time being. £21.4 billion to debt interest payments in total up to Government: Ministerial Meetings 2016-17. A one percentage point rise in effective mortgage rates would add around £12 billion a year to households’ Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Chancellor of the mortgage interest payments. Exchequer (1) if he will prepare and place in the Library a list of meetings between special advisers in Bank Services: Fees and Charges his Department and external individuals, bodies and agencies since May 2010, with a description of the Simon Hart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer purpose of each meeting; [102760] what discussions his Department has had with LINK (2) what discussions staff in his Department have on steps to make all cash machines free to use. [105140] had with Mr Peter Cruddas or his representatives since May 2010; who took part in any such discussions; and Mr Hoban: Ministers and officials meet a wide variety what their purpose was; [102761] of organisations and individuals. As was the case with (3) whether he has met Mr Peter Cruddas in (a) his previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s Department, (b) 11 Downing street, (c) the Downing practice to provide details of all such meetings and street flat and (d) Dorneywood since May 2010. representations. [102762] Business Heidi Alexander: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what meetings (a) Ministers, (b) special Mr Nuttall: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer advisers and (c) officials in his Department have had how many businesses were registered for VAT in Bury with Peter Cruddas since 12 May 2010. [103540] North constituency on 31 December (a) 2009, (b) 2010 and (c) 2011. [104453] Miss Chloe Smith [holding answer 18 April 2012]: Treasury Ministers and officials have meetings with a Mr Gauke: The information requested is not available wide variety of organisations in the public and private and could be produced only at disproportionate costs. sectors as part of the process of policy development and delivery. Communications Capabilities Development Programme The Treasury publishes a list of ministerial meetings with external organisations, available at: Mr Raab: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm what estimate he has made of the sum required to fund Income Tax the Communications Capabilities Development Programme; and whether such funds have been set Mr Nuttall: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer aside for this purpose. [104997] what estimate he has made of the number of individuals in Bury North constituency who will no Danny Alexander [holding answer 23 April 2012]: longer pay income tax as a result of the increase in the The Home Office are responsible for costing their personal allowance from 6 April 2012. [104332] programmes, including the Communications Capabilities Development programme (CCD), which has been in Mr Gauke: The 2011 Budget announced a £630 cash place since 2011. increase in the personal allowance for under 65s to Home Office expenditure limits were set out at the £8,105 in 2012-13 (£240 above expected RPI indexation), time of the 2010 spending review, details of which are with an equivalent reduction in the basic rate limit to available here: leave the higher rate threshold unchanged. http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/spend_index.htm As a result of these measures, the Government estimated that in 2012-13 260,000 of the lowest income taxpayers The costs of the Communications Capabilities will be removed from tax altogether. Information at Development programme will be announced by the Government office region is provided in the following Home Office alongside details of the proposals in due table: course. Number taken out of income tax Exports: Licensing Government office region (Thousand)

North-east 10 Christopher Pincher: To ask the Chancellor of the North-west and Merseyside 28 Exchequer what plans he has to increase the cost of Yorkshire and the Humber 26 export licences applied for by UK businesses to export East midlands 18 goods abroad. [104327] 841W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 842W

Tax Allowances: Charitable Donations Number taken out of income tax Government office region (Thousand) Siobhain McDonagh: To ask the Chancellor of the West midlands 25 Exchequer how much tax relief was provided for East of England 25 charitable donations to bodies and individuals London 30 promoting free schools in (a) 2010-11 and (b) South-east 32 2011-12; and how much has been budgeted by his South-west 24 Department for such tax relief in (i) 2012-13, (ii) Wales 10 2013-14 and (iii) 2014-15. [105288] Scotland 21 Northern Ireland 9 Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) Address abroad/unknown 3 does not separately identify tax relief for charitable All 260 donations by the types of organisation or individual. These estimates are based on the 2007-08 Survey of Tobacco Personal Incomes, projected to 2012-13 using economic assumptions consistent with the Office for Budget Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Responsibility’s March 2011 economic and fiscal outlook. if he will estimate the amount spent on (a) tobacco, Reliable estimates are not available at parliamentary (b) alcohol and (c) prescription drugs in each of the constituency level, due to greater uncertainties in projections last five years. [104879] for small geographical areas and small sample sizes. Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the The Government are committed to supporting lower Cabinet Office. and middle income earners by raising the personal The information requested falls within the responsibility allowance to £10,000, and removing the lowest income of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority individuals out of income tax. Decisions on future to reply. changes in the personal allowance will be taken as part of the annual Budget process in the context of the wider Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated April 2012: public finances. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Maternity Payments for an estimate of the amount spent on (a) tobacco (b) alcohol and (c) prescription drugs in each of the last five years (104879). Office for National Statistics (ONS) Household expenditure Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Chancellor of the estimates for tobacco and off-trade alcohol in the UK economy Exchequer what the average was of the three highest are provided in table 1 as follows. It is not currently possible to statutory maternity payments to an individual recorded separate on-trade alcohol expenditure from other consumption in by HM Revenue and Customs’ National Insurance on-trade establishments. Recording System in the most recent year for which ONS does not compile aggregate estimates for household figures are available. [105227] expenditure on prescription drugs, nor does it compile estimates of government expenditure on prescription drugs. Mr Gauke: The information requested could be obtained Estimates of government expenditure on prescription drugs only at a disproportionate cost. are compiled by the Department of Health, England, and by the respective devolved administrations for Scotland, Wales and for Public Appointments Northern Ireland. Table 1: Household expenditure on tobacco and off trade alcohol. Current prices Rosie Cooper: To ask the Chancellor of the £ million Exchequer how many appointments of people earning 02.1 Alcoholic beverages 02.2 Tobacco (a) over £142,500 per annum and (b) over £142,500 2007 13,596 15,662 per annum pro rata he approved between (i) April 2010 2008 14,146 15,739 and March 2011 and (ii) April 2011 and December 2009 14,159 15,747 2012; and how many approved appointments were 2010 14,433 17,055 related to GPs working in clinical commissioning 2011 15,213 18,346 groups. [103505] Note: The estimate for alcoholic beverages is for off-trade only. It is not currently Danny Alexander [holding answer 18 April 2012]: In possible to separate on-trade alcohol expenditure from other consumption in on-trade establishments. May 2010, it was announced that the Chief Secretary to Guide to quality: the Treasury would be required to sign-off the salaries Consumer Trends estimates are consistent with the expenditure approach to of any individuals earning over a full-time equivalent of measuring GDP for National Accounts. However, National Accounts estimates do not have a readily available measure for quality because of the combination £142,500, in areas under ministerial control. of different sources. As of 17 April 2012, I have been asked to approve the Estimates are consistent with the Quarterly National Accounts published on 28 March 2012. remuneration of 191 individuals. None of these Source: appointments relate to GPs working in clinical Consumer Trends Statistical Bulletin commissioning groups. VAT I usually approve salaries at a range, prior to advertisement. The Treasury does not hold information Tristram Hunt: To ask the Chancellor of the about the date on which the final appointments were Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effect approved, or whether the final appointments were made that the abolition of zero-rated VAT on approved on a full or part time basis, and therefore whether alterations to listed buildings will have on the heritage salaries were pro rata or not. sector. [104246] 843W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 844W

Mr Gauke: Annex B—tables of impact for individual On 22 March 2012, the Minister of State for International measures in HM Revenue and Customs consultation Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for document “VAT: Addressing Borderline Anomalies”, Rutland and Melton (Mr Duncan), met Karl Hood, the published at Budget 2012, sets out estimates for VAT Foreign Minister of Grenada and outgoing chair of the which will be raised from approved alterations to listed Association of Small Island States (AOSIS). Their buildings and a summary of impacts upon which comments discussions covered the effects of climate change on are invited. Grenada, and other small island states, as well as http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2012/vat-con-4801.pdf negotiations under the UNFCCC.

John Mann: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Developing Countries how many swimming pools have been installed in listed buildings where VAT was exempted from the build costs in each of the last 10 years. [105115] Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development whether his Mr Gauke: Annex B—Tables of Impact for Individual Department conducts social exclusion analyses and Measures—in HM Revenue and Customs consultation country government assessments; and to what extent document “VAT: Addressing Borderline Anomalies”, these inform the design of country programmes. published at Budget 2012, sets out a summary of impacts [104283] upon which comments are invited: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2012/vat-con-4801.pdf Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Development has guidance in place and conducts both Working Tax Credit country governance analysis and gender and social exclusion analysis. These inform the design of country Helen Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer strategies and programmes. how many households in Warrington North became Country governance analysis is mandatory and normally ineligible for working tax credit from 1 April as a result prepared in the context of the country planning process. of the increase in the number of hours of work At least 25 country offices have one in place. Gender required. [105223] and social exclusion analysis are mandatory in South Asia division, other divisions decide on a country by Mr Gauke: The information requested is not available. country basis.

Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT for International Development whether his Department uses child rights situation analysis in the Children’s Rights development of its country programmes. [104346]

Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State Mr O’Brien: The Department for International for International Development what training his Development (DFID) uses a wide range of research Department provides to staff in country teams and and evidence on poverty to develop its Country Assistance headquarters on child rights and child protection. Plans. This includes information about human rights [104345] including the rights of children, where available. All Country Assistance Plans are available on the DFID Mr O’Brien: The Department for International website. Development (DFID) does not provide specific training for staff on child rights and child protection. DFID Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for officials are encouraged and supported each year to International Development how much his Department complete structured learning to enhance skills and spent on social protection programmes in Tanzania for competencies that can assist them to do their jobs more (a) children and (b) pregnant and breastfeeding effectively. This includes training on human rights for mothers in (i) 2008, (ii) 2009, (iii) 2010 and (iv) 2011; those that require these skills. and what assessment he has made of the effect of such Climate Change programmes. [104508]

Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr O’Brien: In 2008-11 the Department for International International Development what recent discussions he Development’s office in Tanzania had no social protection has had with his international counterparts on programmes. We are currently in the process of designing mitigating the effects of climate change in the a new social protection programme with a focus on developing world. [104644] pregnant women and children, and expect this to. become operational in 2012-13. Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UK Government, led by the Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC), Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for engage in negotiations through formal Conferences of International Development how much his Department the Parties, Inter-sessional meetings and work programmes spent on social protection programmes in Tanzania under the United Nations Framework Convention on intended to improve nutritional outcomes for (a) Climate Change (UNFCCC). Officials from the children and (b) pregnant and breastfeeding mothers Department for International Development (DFID) in (i) 2008, (ii) 2009, (iii) 2010 and (iv) 2011; and what lead for the UK in these negotiations on climate adaptation assessment he has made of the effect of such and mitigating the effects of climate change. programmes. [104509] 845W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 846W

Mr O’Brien: In 2008 and 2009 Department for receiving cash transfers there has been a reduction in International Development’s office in Tanzania did not the proportion of households within the poorest 10% of directly fund any nutrition programmes. In 2010-11 we Kenyans. 69% of beneficiaries report having more and/or provided nutritional feeding supplements for 8,031 children, larger meals and 20% are seeking alternative livelihood pregnant and lactating women and tuberculosis cases in options. While asset holding in Northern Kenya has refugee populations and vulnerable host populations in declined across the board, there has been less of a surrounding areas as part of £4 million of support for decline in asset holding in HSNP households compared the World Food programme’s emergency appeal. In to households not receiving the transfers. 20% of beneficiary 2012-13 we will commence our National Food Fortification households reported increased expenditure on education programme, which is expected to reach around 20 million and 11% report spending on health services. people (about half the population of Tanzania) at a Source: cost of £2.9 million over three years. Regular HSNP monitoring reports, World Bank Aide Memoire on the mid-term review of the OVC programme (April 2012). Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Cash transfer programme for Orphans and Vulnerable Children International Development (1) how much his (OVC), Kenya, operational and impact evaluation, Oxford Policy Department spent on social protection programmes in Management (OPM), October 2010. Kenya intended to improve nutritional outcomes for Developing Countries: Females (a) children and (b) pregnant and breastfeeding mothers in (i) 2008, (ii) 2009, (iii) 2010 and (iv) 2011; and what assessment he has made of the effect of such Mr David Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for programmes; [104510] International Development what assessment his Department has made of the progress towards the 2015 (2) how much his Department spent on social targets set out in its document Choices for Women. protection programmes in Kenya for (a) children and [103895] (b) pregnant and breastfeeding mothers in (i) 2008, (ii) 2009, (iii) 2010 and (iv) 2011; and what assessment he Mr Andrew Mitchell: Progress towards the 2015 targets, has made of the effect of such programmes. [104511] as set out in the document ‘Choices for women: Planned pregnancies, safe births and healthy newborns’ will be Mr Andrew Mitchell: More than 540,000 people, 67% published in the Department for International of whom are women, orphans and vulnerable children, Development’s (DFID) annual report, in the summer. are directly benefitting from the Kenya Social Protection This will include results achieved to date, as well as Programme. In the Orphans and Vulnerable Children’s information on progress against our public results Programme, poverty levels are 13% lower among commitments. The annual report will be posted on beneficiaries. DFID’s website: The Kenya Social Protection Programme includes www.dfid.gov.uk two safety net programmes: the Hunger Safety Net Programme (HSNP) and the Orphans and Vulnerable DFID will also undertake a mid-term review, planned Children Programme (OVC). Both have rigorous for 2013 and an evaluation in 2016. The initial monitoring monitoring and evaluation systems. and evaluation framework can be found on DFID’s website, under the publications section, at: Total programme spend on the Kenya Social Protection www.dfid.gov.uk/rmnh Programme is shown in the following table together with the number of beneficiaries. Developing Countries: Health Services

OVC HSNP Households Households Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for reached (5.7 reached (7.2 International Development what steps his Department people per people per Total amount is taking to help poor countries provide free health care Financial year household) household) (£) for (a) pregnant women and children and (b) other 2008-09 8,400 5,129 4,771,837 people. [104109] 2009-10 17,617 36,655 8,893,028 2010-11 25,430 54,938 17,372,695 Mr O’Brien: In poor countries, the heavy reliance on 2011-12 34,500 61,116 18,148,965 direct out-of-pocket payments for health care creates financial barriers that prevent people from using services The OVC cash transfer is provided nationally to very they need and cause financial hardship, even poor households taking care of OVC, 85% of which are impoverishment for millions who do seek care. Where headed by women. A February 2012 survey shows that this is the most effective way to expand access to good the programme is making a real difference to poor quality essential health care for poor people, the Department people’s lives. Children in OVC households are 19% for International Development (DFID) is supporting more likely to be enrolled in primary school and 7.8% poor countries to provide services free at the point of more likely to be in secondary school. The programme use through both public and private providers. has also had positive health impacts, notably reducing In some countries this is being done through our depression, diarrhoea and increasing measles vaccinations. country programme, such as in Sierra Leone where The Hunger and Safety Net Programme (HSNP) was DFID is supporting the removal of fees at government-run developed to reduce food aid dependency and hunger of health facilities for pregnant women and children under the most vulnerable people in Northern Kenya. 66% of five. Also, in Bangladesh, DFID is supporting a voucher HSNP beneficiaries are female. Monitoring reports show scheme for maternal health services that enables women that recipients have spent the majority of the cash to receive antenatal care, safe delivery and postnatal transfer on food, education and health. Among beneficiaries care free of charge from both public and private providers. 847W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 848W

In other countries support is provided through international Through the joint DFID-FCO Arab Partnership, the organisations. DFID is providing both funding and a UK is providing support for media and civil society health financing expert to the World Health Organisation organisations to hold public officials and services to to enable it to support poor countries to reduce their account in Egypt. For example, work led by the FCO reliance on out-of-pocket payments for health care, and part-funded by DFID, is supporting Aswat Masriya, both for women and children and for populations as a a local media organisation, to provide high quality and whole. objective information to the public. Developing Countries: Minerals Horn of Africa Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what reports he has International Development what his policy is on the received on the humanitarian situation in the Horn of proposed EU transparency rules for the extractive Africa; and what assistance his Department has offered industry. [103861] to aid the peoples of Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia and Djibouti. [104029] Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Government recognise the importance of transparency for the extractive industries Austin Mitchell: The humanitarian situation in the and the positive impacts it could have on governance, Horn has improved in recent months, but enormous development and the reduction of corruption. Extractive needs remain. UK officials based in the region receive industries have the potential dramatically to boost economic regular reports from NGO and UN partners in the growth and help resource rich developing countries to affected areas. Fragile gains could be reversed if early pull themselves out of poverty. The Prime Minister and warnings of potentially below average rains in April to the Chancellor have made clear that the UK will support June are realised, and if security issues continue to limit action at EU level for requirements to be placed on EU humanitarian access in Somalia. extractives companies to disclose the payments they Since July 2011, the UK has allocated over £182 million make to foreign governments. Such disclosures can help for humanitarian assistance in Ethiopia, Kenya and empower the citizens of resource-rich countries and Somalia. British support has fed over 3.3 million people. improve accountability, by enabling them to see what UK contributions to multilateral agencies including the their governments receive from the exploitation of their UN’s Central Emergency Relief Fund (CERF) have countries’ natural resources. The Government are already also benefitted these countries, as well as Djibouti. engaged in the EU negotiations on this issue. In addition to humanitarian assistance, the UK is The Government have held constructive discussions also working through its development programmes to with those representing civil society and industry about strengthen the resilience of poor people in the Horn of developing a solution that will ensure information disclosed Africa to withstand and recover from future shocks. will assist citizens in holding their governments to account, Long term investments in resilience and development and is proportionate in relation to the costs imposed on represent much better value for money than emergency industry. This valuable dialogue is ongoing and will humanitarian aid alone. help to inform EU negotiations. Meetings Developing Countries: Sustainable Development Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what meetings (a) International Development what his policy is on the Ministers, (b) special advisers and (c) officials in his Department have had with (i) Sarah Southern and (ii) proposed Sustainable Development Goals. [103909] Peter Cruddas since 12 May 2010. [104826] Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Mr Andrew Mitchell: Details of all Ministers external Development supports the development of Sustainable meetings are available on the Department for International Development Goals (SDGs) and I hope that significant Development website: progress on this agenda can be made at the Rio+20 http://www.dfid.gov.uk/About-DFID/Our-organisation1/ summit this June. SDGs could help to provide incentives Ministers/ for greater global cooperation to address major and are published every quarter in the normal way. sustainability challenges such as food security, access to sustainable energy, and water—issues which are of critical Special advisers have not held meetings with Sarah importance to development and poverty eradication. Southern and Peter Cruddas since 12 May 2010. No information is held on officials meetings. Egypt Morocco

Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps his Department International Development what steps the Government is taking to support (a) security sector reform in Egypt is taking to help progress women’s rights in Morocco; and (b) Egyptian civil society to hold security and and if he will make a statement. [105203] justice providers to account. [105067] Mr Duncan: The UK Government are strengthening Mr Duncan: DFID is working closely with other UK women’s rights across the middle east and North Africa, Departments to support strengthened governance and particularly by securing greater political and economic greater public voice in Egypt, including exploring ways participation for women. As part of our Arab Partnership to provide direct support for security sector reform. Participation Fund (APPF) we have worked effectively 849W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 850W with project partners to ensure that gender issues are Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for taken into account For example we have ensured that International Development whether his Department training courses provided for journalists or MPs have a accepts anonymous contributions to its consultations. balance of female and male participants. This year we [104075] will support a project in Morocco which will support women MPs through the Parliamentary Women’s Forum Mr Duncan: In accordance with paragraph 6.1 of the to influence and promote key bills, particularly those ’HM Government Code of Practice on Consultation’, entailing changes to the constitution. DFID accepts anonymous contributions to its consultations. Through our Arab Partnership Economic Facility Southern Sudan (APEF) we are working with the International Financial Institutions to provide greater economic opportunities Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for for women. This support will increase access to finance International Development what steps his Department for female entrepreneurs across the region to set up and has taken to support refugees in South Sudan. [104655] develop micro, small and medium sized enterprises. Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UK’s humanitarian Official Secrets programmes in South Sudan are addressing emergency needs for refugees, returnees and internally displaced Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for people. In December, I approved a two-year package of International Development whether any person support for the International Committee of the Red employed by (a) his Department and (b) any private Cross and the Common Humanitarian Fund in South firms contracted by his Department is bound by any Sudan. We are working on a further package of support part of the Official Secrets Act. [104849] to meet the current significant regional difficulties. St Helena: Airports Mr Duncan: The Official Secrets Act 1989 applies to all British citizens, Ministers of the Crown, civil servants, Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for and government contractors. International Development what discussions he has had with the (a) Prime Minister and (b) Chancellor of Palestinians the Exchequer on the construction of an airport on St Helena. [104643] Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what proportion of Mr Andrew Mitchell: I held no discussions with either Palestinian textbooks are audited by UNESCO. the Prime Minister or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, [104950] my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne) on the construction of the St Helena airport. I exchange Mr Duncan: In its reports on Palestinian school letters with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the textbooks, including the study “Fragmented Foundations: right hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and education and chronic crisis in the Occupied Palestinian Strathspey (Danny Alexander) as is appropriate for an Territory” (2007) and “Studies on the Palestinian investment of this size. Curriculum and textbooks: Consolidated Report” (2006) United Nations Education, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) does not specify the total HEALTH number of Palestinian textbooks covered. Abortion Public Consultation Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he expects the Care Quality Commission to Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for publish its report on abortion clinics; if he will place International Development which of his Department’s copies in the Vote Office; and if he will make a consultations have been externally verified since 2007; statement. [R] [104319] for what reason and by whom such verification was carried out; and what the cost to the public purse was Anne Milton: Reports of the recent inspections of of such verification. [104073] providers of termination of pregnancy services will be published from mid-May. The Care Quality Commission Mr Duncan: Formal verification of compliance with publishes a report following every inspection of a provider the various obligations set out under the HM Government of a regulated activity that it carries out. These reports Code of Practice on Consultation is a matter that is are available on the Commission’s website. handled internally, in accordance with the obligation under the code to monitor the effectiveness of consultation Aerials: Health Hazards exercises. Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for It is normal practice for DFID to publish all non- Health what recent assessment he has made of the confidential responses to formal written consultation potential health risks of mobile telecommunications exercises, consistent with the code. Publication of masts. [104639] consultation responses promotes transparency and provides the opportunity for external scrutiny of the consultation Anne Milton: The independently managed Mobile process independent of Government. A list of DFID’s Telecommunications and Health Research (MTHR) consultations can be found at: programme, jointly funded by Government and industry, http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Work-with-us/Consultations/Closed- has supported a number of studies into the possible consultation/ health effects of radiofrequency technology relating 851W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 852W both to mobile telecommunications masts and hand-held Birth Certificates mobile phones. Further details of the research programme are available on the MTHR website at: Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Health www.mthr.org.uk/ whether he has a policy on the level of sole registration of births; and whether health professionals provide None of the research supported by MTHR to date guidance to new and prospective parents on the has demonstrated that biological or adverse health effects process, function and significance of birth registration. are produced by radiofrequency exposure from mobile [104328] phones or mobile telecommunications masts. The Health Protection Agency (HPA) advises the Anne Milton: The Department does not have Government in relation to the protection of the public responsibility for the registration of births. Practical from radiation hazards, including those associated with advice on how to register a birth is available on the exposure to non-ionising radiation such as the radio Directgov website at: waves from telecommunications masts. The HPA is www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/ advised on science and on research priorities by its Registeringlifeevents/Birthandadoptionrecords/ independent Advisory Group on Non-Ionising Radiation Registeringorchangingabirthrecord/DG_175608 (AGNIR). AGNIR is reviewing recent evidence of risks The Department funded ‘Reaching out: Involving from radiofrequency radiation, and will be updating its Fathers in Maternity Care and Top Tips: Involving 2003 report. AGNIR’s new review will take account of Fathers in Maternity Care’, which was published by the studies worldwide and is expected to be completed by Royal College of Midwives on 15 November 2011 at late spring or early summer 2012. Further information their annual conference. The guide provides top tips on AGNIR’s work is available at: and useful insight into how ail maternity service staff www.hpa.org.uk/Topics/Radiation/ might best encourage fathers’ involvement throughout RadiationAdvisoryGroups/ pregnancy and childbirth, and into fatherhood and AdvisoryGroupOnNonIonisingRadiation/ family life. The guide is supported by the Fatherhood Institute and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and available at: Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse http://www.rcm.org.uk/college/policy-practice/government- policy/fathers-guide/?locale=en Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Cancer how many people in the London Borough of Bexley received treatment for alcohol dependency in each of Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State the last three years. [104454] for Health how many finished consultant episodes for sentinel lymph node biopsy took place in each NHS acute trust in England in each of the last 10 years for Anne Milton: The number of people receiving treatment which data are available. [104239] for alcohol dependency in Bexley for the years 2008-09 to 2010-11 is given in the following table. Alcohol Paul Burstow: Information concerning the number of treatment data are reported only at primary care trust finished consultant episodes for sentinel lymph node level. The data refer to community and residential-based biopsy procedures that took place in each NHS acute specialised assessment and treatment that is care trust in England for which data are available is set out in co-ordinated and care planned. the following table. Bexley Care Trust (TAK) Prior to 2006-07 it was not possible to identify biopsy Number of clients (18+) in contact with of lymph node procedures as these procedures were structured alcohol treatment in the year recorded using the coding ‘Excision or biopsy’ of the 2008-09 347 lymph node. To protect patient confidentiality, figures 2009-10 377 between one and five have been replaced with ‘*’ (an 2010-11 333 asterisk). Where it was still possible to identify numbers Source: from the total an additional number (the next smallest) National Alcohol Treatment Monitoring System. has been replaced with an asterisk.

Number of finished consultant episodes1 with a main or secondary operative procedure2 of sentinel lymph node biopsy by provider3 from 2006-07 to 2010-11. Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Provider name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Aintree University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 7 19 14 * * Airedale NHS Foundation Trust — 44 78 48 39 Ashford and St Peter’s Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 8 21 * * * Barking, Havering and Redbridge University Hospitals NHS Trust 82 108 54 16 34 Barnet and Chase Farm Hospitals NHS Trust — 49 79 73 36 Barnsley Hospital NHS Foundation Trust — — — 6 * Barts and the London NHS Trust 66 76 62 38 18 Basildon and Thurrock University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust * — — * * Basingstoke and North Hampshire NHS Foundation Trust 9 24 23 38 41 Bedford Hospital NHS Trust 6 45 43 89 77 Birmingham Treatment Centre * — — * — Blackpool Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 14 29 21 20 8 BMI—Chelsfield Park Hospital — — — — * 853W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 854W

Number of finished consultant episodes1 with a main or secondary operative procedure2 of sentinel lymph node biopsy by provider3 from 2006-07 to 2010-11. Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Provider name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Bradford Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust * 88 77 * 16 Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Trust — * — * * Bromley Hospitals NHS Trust — * 8 — — Buckinghamshire Hospitals NHS Trust 103 165 * * — Burton Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust — 10 34 24 11 Calderdale and Huddersfield NHS Foundation Trust 23 54 19 31 13 Cambridge University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 165 64 9 6 7 Care UK head office ———25— Central Manchester University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust — * * * Chesterfield Royal Hospital NHS Foundation Trust — — 8 57 47 City Hospitals Sunderland NHS Foundation Trust — 9 31 19 — Colchester Hospital University NHS Foundation Trust 113 92 * — — Countess of Chester Hospital NHS Foundation Trust — 17 8 23 * County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust — *——— Croydon Health Services NHS Trust 34 38 35 17 23 DartfordandGraveshamNHSTrust 35———— Dartford and Gravesham NHS Trust — 125 110 69 7 Derby Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 115 286 23 — — Doncaster and Bassetlaw Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 30 10 * — — Dorset County Hospital NHS Foundation Trust — — — — * Dorset PCT ——**— Ealing Hospital NHS Trust 23 — * — 6 East and North Hertfordshire NHS Trust — 12 * 10 10 East Cheshire NHS Trust 40 111 53 74 56 East Kent Hospitals University NHS Foundation Trust — * * 50 127 East Lancashire Hospitals NHS Trust — *——— East Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust — * 19 12 20 Frimley Park Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 109 105 96 113 44 Gateshead Health NHS Foundation Trust — — 47 * — George Eliot Hospital NHS Trust 55 11 28 20 13 Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 244 191 86 117 34 Great Western Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust — 11 15 38 18 Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust 51 154 210 — — Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust — — — 211 231 Hammersmith Hospitals NHS Trust 34 ———— Harrogate and District NHS Foundation Trust — 37 15 * — Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust 78 ———— Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust — 83 43 34 13 Heatherwood and Wexham park Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 67 101 24 17 6 Hinchingbrooke Health Care NHS Trust — — — * — Homerton University Hospital NHS Foundation Trust * 12 22 17 * Hull and East Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust 96 95 14 — * Imperial College Healthcare NHS Trust — 165 210 179 231 Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust 32 41 20 — * Isle of Wight NHS PCT 23 34 — — — James Paget University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 6 6——— Kettering General Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 10 36 17 74 61 King’s College Hospital NHS Foundation Trust * * 13 81 60 Kingston Hospital NHS Trust * 19 7 13 * Lancashire Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 54 26 * 12 40 Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust — 176 244 138 70 Luton and Dunstable Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 93 33 12 * * Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust — 28 71 — * Medway NHS Foundation Trust 73 82 71 66 14 Mid Cheshire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust — * 68 130 11 Mid Essex Hospital Services NHS Trust — * 53 41 30 Mid Kent NHS Treatment Centre — 68 37 — — Mid Kent NHS Treatment Centre — — — 6 * Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust 48 47 14 * 8 Mid Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust — 60 153 104 28 Milton Keynes Hospital NHS Foundation Trust * 78 9 * * 855W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 856W

Number of finished consultant episodes1 with a main or secondary operative procedure2 of sentinel lymph node biopsy by provider3 from 2006-07 to 2010-11. Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Provider name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

NewhamUniversityHospitalNHSTrust *67** Norfolk and Norwich University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 235 95 21 18 10 North Bristol NHS Trust 121 196 179 180 — North Bristol NHS Trust — ———72 North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust — 10 43 * * North Hampshire Hospitals NHS Trust treatment centre * * * 21 25 North Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust — * — 18 27 North tees and Hartlepool NHS Foundation Trust 169 114 145 96 24 North West London Hospitals NHS Trust 67 39 57 80 71 Northampton General Hospital NHS Trust 21 51 58 55 52 Northern Devon Healthcare NHS Trust * * * 7 — Northern Lincolnshire and Goole Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust — 7*79 Northumbria Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust 1 * * 25 21 Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust 97 172 — 294 262 Oxford Radcliffe Hospitals NHS Trust 31 43 106 51 16 Papworth Hospital NHS Foundation Trust — — — — * Pennine Acute Hospitals NHS Trust 14 *6** Peterborough and Stamford Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 124 101 — * * Plymouth Hospitals NHS Trust 6 74 53 22 * Poole Hospital NHS Foundation Trust — 51 174 180 86 Portsmouth Hospitals NHS Trust 81 77 * 18 — Queen Elizabeth Hospital NHS Trust — 6 13 — — Royal Berkshire NHS Foundation Trust 118 123 71 39 47 Royal Bolton Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 36 70 98 34 16 Royal Brompton and Harefield NHS Trust — — * — — Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust 77 37 * — — Royal Cornwall Hospitals NHS Trust — — — * * Royal Devon and Exeter NHS Foundation Trust 208 178 13 * * Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust 41 61 90 54 13 Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen University Hospitals NHS Trust 59 218 243 264 107 Royal Surrey County Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 136 103 * 15 20 Royal United Hospital Bath NHS Trust 122 176 152 80 52 Royal West Sussex NHS Trust — — 9 — — Salford Royal NHS Foundation Trust — 6 * 29 * Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust 10 12 6 * * Sandwell and West Birmingham Hospitals NHS Trust 41 9 — — * Scarborough and North East Yorkshire Health Care NHS Trust — **67 Sheffield Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust * 8 25 52 10 Sherwood Forest Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 55 * — * * Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust — 15 6 * 44 South Devon Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust 19 * 31 18 80 South London Healthcare NHS Trust — — — 24 46 South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust — 42 88 83 106 South Tyneside NHS Foundation Trust — * 12 25 30 South Warwickshire NHS Foundation Trust * 64 95 59 9 Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust 30 68 47 * 19 Southend University Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 102 101 49 * — Southport and Ormskirk Hospital NHS Trust — * 31 15 * St George’s Healthcare NHS Trust 215 158 73 46 33 St Helens and Knowsley Hospitals NHS Trust 79 107 9 12 * St Mary’s NHS Trust 61———— Stockport NHS Foundation Trust * 31 32 34 21 Surrey and Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust — 56 18 12 * Tameside Hospital NHS Foundation Trust — 24 13 * * Taunton and Somerset NHS Foundation Trust 11 9 * 28 48 The Christie NHS Foundation Trust 31 50 10 10 26 The Dudley Group of Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 68 37 11 29 13 The Hillingdon Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 20 27 31 9 15 The Newcastle upon Tyne Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust — 119 157 185 19 The Princess Alexandra Hospital NHS Trust — * 24 51 34 The Queen Elizabeth Hospital, King’s Lynn NHS Foundation Trust 80 15 * * 8 The Rotherham NHS Foundation Trust — * 41 32 — The Royal Bournemouth and Christchurch Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust — 20 87 122 129 The Royal Marsden NHS Foundation Trust 242 264 275 236 — 857W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 858W

Number of finished consultant episodes1 with a main or secondary operative procedure2 of sentinel lymph node biopsy by provider3 from 2006-07 to 2010-11. Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Provider name 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

The Royal Wolverhampton Hospitals NHS Trust — * 38 24 19 The Spencer Wing ———— * The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 34 10 * * — United Lincolnshire Hospitals NHS Trust 48 9 8 14 36 University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 61 34 * * 10 University Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust 13 ———— University Hospital of North Staffordshire NHS Trust 178 39 41 56 9 University Hospital of South Manchester NHS Foundation Trust 191 187 — * — University Hospitals Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust — 15 19 22 36 University Hospitals Bristol NHS Foundation Trust 19 16 6 13 23 University Hospitals Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust 120 115 * * — University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust 138 204 246 343 426 University Hospitals of Morecambe bay NHS Foundation Trust 129 35 21 12 16 Walsall Healthcare NHS Trust 72 11 9 8 14 Warrington and Halton Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust — — — 18 * West Hertfordshire Hospitals NHS Trust 82 43 * 15 13 West Middlesex University Hospital NHS Trust — 24 38 32 6 West Suffolk Hospitals NHS Trust 24 16 6 6 6 Western Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust — — — 63 29 Weston Area Health NHS Trust 14 25 66 74 55 Whipps Cross University Hospital NHS Trust — — 39 53 46 Winchester and Eastleigh Healthcare NHS Trust — 9 26 — * Winchester NHS Treatment Centre * ———— Wirral University Teaching Hospital NHS Foundation 19 8——— Worcestershire Acute Hospitals NHS Trust 37 125 150 11 32 Worthing and Southlands Hospitals NHS Trust — 12 41 — — Wrightington, Wigan and Leigh NHS Foundation Trust 7 31 * * 15 Wye Valley NHS Trust 27 36 — * * Yeovil District Hospital NHS Foundation Trust — — — 6 * York Teaching Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 72 74 40 37 58 1 A finished consultant episode (FCE) is a continuous period of admitted patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FCEs are counted against the year in which they end. Figures do not represent the number of different patients, as a person may have more than one episode of care within the same stay in hospital or in different stays in the same year. 2 The number of episodes where the procedure (or intervention) was recorded in any of the 24 (12 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and four prior to 2002-03) procedure fields in a hospital episode statistics (HES) record. A record is only included once in each count, even if the procedure is recorded in more than one procedure field of the record. Note that more procedures are carried out than episodes with a main or secondary procedure. For example, patients under going a ‘cataract operation’ would tend to have at least two procedures—removal of the faulty lens and the fitting of a new one—counted in a single episode. 3 A provider code is a unique code that identifies an organisation acting as a health care provider (e.g. NHS trust or primary care trust). Hospital providers can also include treatment centres (TC). Normally, if data are tabulated by health care provider, the figure for an NHS trust gives the activity of all the sites as one aggregated figure. However, in the case of those with embedded TCs, these data are quoted separately, in these cases, ‘-X’ is appended to the code for the rest of the trust, to remind users that the figures are for all sites of the trust excluding the treatment centres. The quality of TC returns are such that data may notbe complete. Some NHS trusts have not registered their TC as a separate site, and it is therefore not possible to identify their activity separately. Data from some independent sector providers, where the onus for arrangement of dataflows is on the commissioner, may be missing. Care must be taken when using these data as the counts may be lower than true figures. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Chronic Fatigue Syndrome what criteria were used to determine the cancer drug (a) (b) fund budget for radiotherapy and Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for chemotherapy for 2012-13; what account was taken of Health what research his Department has the respective cure rates of each form of treatment commissioned on myalgic encephalomyelitis in the last when setting the budgets; and if he will make a three years. [104245] statement. [104668] Paul Burstow: The following projects funded by the National Institute for Health Research (NIHR) Research Paul Burstow: The £200 million we have made available for Patient Benefit programme started in the last three to the national health service for the Cancer Drugs years: Fund in 2012-13 has been allocated amongst strategic health authorities (SHAs) using the national weighted Chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME) interventions within the primary care setting: developing resources capitation formula. This funding is for cancer drug for support and self-management in primary care; and treatments, including radiopharmaceuticals and it is for SHA regional clinically-led panels to make decisions on Graded Exercise Therapy guided SElf-help Treatment (GETSET) for patients with CFS/ME: a randomised controlled trial in its use. secondary care. The clinical effectiveness of pharmaceutical and In addition, the NIHR is funding a clinician scientist radiological treatments will vary according to factors award on evidence based prevention, identification and such as the type and stage of disease. treatment of CFS/ME in children and young people. 859W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 860W

Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State Colorectal Cancer for Health if he will publish each paper held by his Department on research evidence on myalgic Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State encephalomyelitis in each of the last 20 years. [104435] for Health how many finished consultant episodes took Paul Burstow: It has been a long-standing principle place for (a) open and (b) laparoscopic excision of of governance for health and social care research that colorectal cancer in each NHS acute trust in England there should be open access to research findings in all in each of the last 10 years for which data are available. therapeutic areas including chronic fatigue syndrome/ [104237] myalgic encephalomyelitis, once these findings have been subjected to appropriate scientific review. Paul Burstow: Tables of information concerning the number of finished consultant episodes for patients The Department’s National Institute for Health Research with a primary diagnosis of colorectal cancer and for (NIHR) has published a policy statement on open those with an excision procedure of the colon and/or access to research. This is available on the NIHR website rectum have been placed in the Library. at: www.nihr.ac.uk/research/Pages/ These have been presented separately as open and Research_Open_Access_Policy_Statement.aspx laparoscopic procedures and been broken down by hospital provider. It should be noted that due to changes in the Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State coding of trusts, 2003-04 to 2010-11 includes a greater for Health what programmes his Department has in number of providers than 2001-02 to 2002-03, including place to raise medical awareness of myalgic independent providers. encephalomyelitis. [104436] Note that these are counts of episodes not patients, as one patient may undergo several episodes in one spell Paul Burstow: The National Institute for Health and or in separate spells. Clinical Excellence has published guidelines on the diagnosis and management of chronic fatigue syndrome/ To protect patient confidentiality, figures between myalgic encephalomyelitis. There is also information one and five have been replaced with “*” (an asterisk). available on the NHS evidence website, with a number Where it was still possible to identify numbers from the of resources published by clinicians, charities and total an additional number (the next smallest) has also professional organisations. been replaced with an asterisk.

Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether his Department classifies myalgic for Health how many finished consultant episodes took encephalomyelitis as a neurological condition. [104437] place for other specified excision of rectum in each NHS acute trust in England in each of the last 10 years Paul Burstow: The Department classes chronic fatigue for which data are available. [104238] syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis as a long-term neurological disease of unknown cause. Paul Burstow: Tables of information regarding the number of finished consultant episodes (FCEs) where Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State the main or secondary operative procedure was recorded for Health how many people (a) were diagnosed with as specified excision of the rectum have been placed in and (b) died from myalgic encephalomyelitis in each the Library. year since 2005. [104438] It should be noted that the number of FCEs does not Paul Burstow: This information is not available, as it represent the number of patients as an individual may is not collected centrally. have more than one period of hospital care involving this procedure in any given year. Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State To protect patient confidentiality, figures between for Health whether his Department considers the one and five have been replaced with “*” (an asterisk). Perrin Technique to be an efficacious treatment for the Where it was still possible to identify numbers from the symptoms of myalgic encephalomyelitis; and whether total an additional number (the next smallest) has been it is available as an NHS treatment. [104439] also been replaced by an asterisk. Paul Burstow: Decisions on the commissioning of Complex Disability Equipment Clinical Reference complementary and alternative therapies and treatments Group on the national health service are a matter for the NHS locally. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence clinical guideline suggests there is insufficient Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State evidence to demonstrate that complementary therapies for Health what the (a) functions and (b) membership are effective treatments for chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic are of the Complex Disability Equipment Clinical encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME) so do not recommend Reference Group. [104637] their use. However, the guideline acknowledges that some people with CFS/ME choose to use complementary Paul Burstow: The role of the Clinical Reference therapies for symptom control and find them helpful. Groups (CRG) including that for the Complex Disability It is the responsibility of individual clinicians to Equipment CRG, is to support the transition of specialised decide whether a particular treatment option is appropriate services commissioning from the current arrangements for an individual patient, in discussion with the patient to the new arrangements for commissioning which will and based on the available evidence. be in place from April 2013. 861W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 862W

Professor Rajiv Hanspal (Consultant in Rehabilitation Number of registrations and prevalence of major and minor amputations in patients registered as having diabetes at practices participating in the National Medicine at Hillingdon Hospital and Stanmore Diabetes Audit Disablement Services Centre) is the Chair of the CRG. Prevalence per 100 Other members of the Group are Carolyn Young, Keith Major Minor Reid, Alan Woodcock, Lai Landham, Clive Thursfield, Registrations amputations amputations Venu Harilal, Fergus Jepson, Vicky Jarvis, Henry Lumley, Portsmouth City 2,706 0.15 0.26 Rosalind Ham, Kate Parkin (Muscular Dystrophy Teaching PCT Campaign), Steve McNiece. National 1,423,669 0.07 0.13 In addition the CRG can invite specialists to attend meetings of the Group to give specific advice. Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Diabetes Health if he will estimate the proportion of amputations due to diabetes that could have been Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for prevented; and if he will make a statement. [R] [104429] Health if he will estimate the cost to the NHS of amputations due to diabetes (a) in Portsmouth, (b) in Hampshire and (c) nationally in each year since 2008. Paul Burstow: NHS Diabetes document “Foot Care [R] [104427] for People with Diabetes: The Economic Case for Change”, 2012 stated that with the implementation of multi- Paul Burstow: Information on the cost to the national professional foot care teams, it is possible to prevent health service of amputations due to diabetes is not 80% of amputations in diabetics. collected centrally. However, the estimated England level The Department is working closely with NHS Diabetes gross expenditure on diabetes in acute care was £1.55 in implementing foot care networks. There are four billion as reported through the programme budgeting networks already established and three more will be data collection. launched by May 2012. Network co-ordinators work Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for with health care professionals and partner organisations Health how many people have had amputations due to to improve the quality of foot care services for people diabetes (a) in Portsmouth, (b) in Hampshire and (c) with diabetes across primary, community and acute nationally in each year since 2008; and what steps he is settings. taking to reduce the number of amputations. [R] [104428] Diseases Paul Burstow: Hospital episode statistics do not distinguish amputations caused by diabetes from Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health amputations due to other causes. The following results if he will make a submission to the WHO/UN are based on the National Diabetes Audit (NDA) and consultation on non-communicable diseases; and if he shows the prevalence of recorded amputations for patients will place a copy of the submission in the Library. registered in the NDA in the given year i.e. the number [104335] of patients in the NDA per 100 patients who have had one or more amputations within the reporting period. Anne Milton: The Department, in consultation with Participation in the NDA was not mandatory before the devolved Administrations, is actively participating April 2011, so this information is approximate. We in discussions on the development of a global, monitoring cannot state that the amputations were caused by the framework for the prevention and control of non- patients’ diabetes. communicable diseases and will respond shortly to the Number of registrations and prevalence of major and minor amputations in second consultation. A copy of our response will be patients registered as having diabetes at practices participating in the National placed in the Library in due course. Departmental Diabetes Audit officials will also be attending the World Health Prevalence per 100 Organization’s consultation event on 26 April. Major Minor Registrations amputations amputations Drugs: Prices 2009-10 Hampshire Primary 33,446 0.10 0.18 Care Trust (PCT) Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Portsmouth City 8,110 0.12 0.25 Health if he will consider only publishing the drug Teaching PCT tariff online in the future; and if he will make a National 1,929,985 0.07 0.13 statement. [105345]

2008-09 Mr Simon Burns: The drug tariff sets out payments Hampshire Primary 32,062 0.11 0.19 to dispensing contractors for providing national health Care Trust (PCT) service pharmaceutical services. Not all contractors can Portsmouth City 7,821 0.15 0.27 Teaching PCT readily access the drug tariff on-line whilst dispensing National 1,658,409 0.07 0.13 without disrupting their workflow. Therefore, for the immediate future, contractors will continue to have the choice whether to use the paper copy or the on-line 2007-08 version. We will continue to reassess the situation with Hampshire Primary 30,004 0.10 0.17 Care Trust (PCT) the possibility of publishing the drug tariff solely on-line in due course. 863W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 864W

General Practitioners Anne Milton: The following tables show the Government’s advertising expenditure1 about the dangers Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health from smoking, alcohol, illegal drugs and the impact of if he will ensure that the partners in the Woodlands media violence on children for each year for which data Surgery in Cambridge will not be personally liable for a is available. prospective lease on new premises, and that in the event A total budget figure for the 20012-13 financial year of closure, resignations or lack of financial viability, cannot be provided at this stage as detailed planning for the NHS will take over responsibility for the lease. some campaigns is underway and advertising media [105059] allocations have not been finalised. Neither the Department of Health or the Home Mr Simon Burns: NHS Cambridge has advised Office have incurred advertising expenditure warning departmental officials that the general practitioners at the public about the dangers of the impact of media the WoodlandsSurgery have received sufficient reassurances violence on children. about their concerns and are now discussing lease terms 1 Advertising spend is defined as covering only media spend with the company which will develop the new premises. (inclusive of agency commissions but excluding production costs, Central Office of Information (COI) commission and VAT). All figures exclude advertising rebates and audit adjustments and Health Education therefore may differ from COI official turnover figures. All figures are rounded to the nearest £10,000. These figures do not include Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the Department’s recruitment/classified advertising costs and ad what Government expenditure has been incurred in hoc spend under £10,000. These figures may include occasional minor spend through COI by national health service organisations, advertising to warn the public about dangers from (a) to supplement national campaigns in their area. While this expenditure smoking, (b) alcohol, (c) illegal drugs and (d) the has been excluded as far as possible so that this chart reflects impact of media violence on children in each year for central departmental spend, it would incur disproportionate cost which data is available. [105297] to validate that every item of NHS expenditure has been removed.

1999-2000 to 2004-05 Campaign expenditure (£ million) 1999-2000 200-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05

Smoking 6.18 8.97 7.79 7.87 17.34 20.04 Alcohol1 0 0 0 0 0.10 0.05 Illegal drugs2 0.53 0.50 0 1.52 3.7 1.9 1 From 2006-07 Department of Health contribution to campaign run jointly with Home Office). 2 Since 2003, all spend on illegal drugs campaigns has been administered and funded jointly by the Department of Health, the Home Office and the Department for Education. From 2003, these figures include expenditure from all three departments.

2005-06 to 2011-12 Campaign expenditure (£ million) 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-121

Smoking 20.80 13.17 10.79 23.38 14.6 0.46 3.16 Alcohol2 0 0.56 0.61 4.77 4.65 0 0.98 Illegal drugs3 1.8 4.57 3.15 3.77 3.32 0 0.85 1 All expenditure for 2011-12 is being reconciled so may be subject to change. 2 From 2006-07 Department of Health contribution to campaign run jointly with Home Office. 3 Since 2003, all spend on illegal drugs campaigns has been administered and funded jointly by the Department of Health, the Home Office and the Department for Education. From 2003, these figures include expenditure from all three departments.

Health Services: Detention Centres Where secondary health care appointments cannot be kept because of removal from the United Kingdom and it is deemed important by the centre health care Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State team that the individual detainee should be followed up for Health what steps Public Health England (a) have on return to their country of origin, the detainee is taken and (b) will take with the UK Border Agency provided with a letter to pass to those responsible for and immigration removal centres to ensure (i) providing health care there. continuity of care for those undergoing treatment and Public Health England will not be operational until (ii) access to screening and evidence-based treatment April 2013. The detail of their role and responsibilities while in detention. [104353] in this area, together with that of other organisations in the new public health system (e.g. NHS Commissioning Anne Milton: All immigration removal centres (IRCs) Board), is currently being considered. undertake a medical assessment of individuals detained Responsibility for commissioning health care in IRCs on their admission, including screening questions about transferred from the UK Border Agency (UKBA) to mental health, current and past health history, screening the Department on 1 April. However, responsibility for for infectious diseases, and a first night risk assessment. clinical services will remain with the UKBA until such All treatment and medication are provided upon the time as national health service commissioning is in guidance of the centre doctor. There is access to on-site place, with current arrangements remaining in force. primary health care services and, through these services Under the Health and Social Care Act 2012, responsibility access to secondary health care services. for commissioning all offender health care in England 865W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 866W will pass from primary care trusts to the NHS Mental health as a Commissioning Board in April 2013. The Commissioning Mental health proportion of total Board will then work with criminal justice agencies and PCT expenditure (£000) expenditure (%) clinical commissioning groups, with advice from local Ashton, Leigh and 53,245 9 public health teams, to commission health care for Wigan PCT people of all ages detained in settings including IRCs. Barking and Dagenham 69,020 19 PCT Legal Costs Barnet PCT 68,453 11 Barnsley PCT 89,549 17 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Bassetlaw PCT 18,619 10 how much his Department spent on fees for legal work Bath and North East 32,686 11 in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a Somerset PCT Bedfordshire PCT 57,590 9 statement. [104568] Berkshire East Teaching 71,957 12 PCT Mr Simon Burns: Expenditure figures on legal services Berkshire West PCT 74,368 11 and legal consultancy work for the core Department Bexley PCT 39,613 11 taken from the central procurement system for the two Birmingham East and 101,351 13 financial years 2010-11 and 2011-12 are shown in the North PCT following table along with the same expenditure data Blackburn with Darwen 36,067 11 provided by Connecting for Health for the same periods: Teaching PCT Blackpool PCT 41,219 13 £ Bolton PCT 34,290 7 2010-11 2011-12 Bournemouth and Poole 74,749 13 Teaching PCT ’Core’ 12,950,342 7,457,332 Bradford and Airedale 119,033 13 Department of Teaching PCT Health Brent Teaching PCT 65,346 12 Connecting for 8,204,676 11,923,515 Brighton and Hove City 71,988 15 Health Teaching PCT Bristol Teaching PCT 136,169 18 This includes expenditure on internal legal advice Bromley PCT 54,731 11 obtained through a service level agreement with the Buckinghamshire PCT 77,733 11 Department for Work and Pensions. Bury PCT 34,520 10 Please note that the increase in legal spend for NHS Calderdale PCT 39,906 11 Connecting for Health is associated with the proceedings Cambridgeshire PCT 100,974 11 with Fujitsu and Computer Sciences Corporation (CSC). Camden PCT 88,033 16 Central and Eastern 49,287 7 Fujitsu Cheshire PCT Following termination of the Local Services Provider Central Lancashire PCT 97,284 12 contract with Fujitsu in May 2008, the Department is in City and Hackney 105,566 20 formal Arbitration proceedings. This has reached a Teaching PCT critical stage in the process where evidence gathering, Cornwall and Isles of 109,068 12 witness statements and submissions to the Arbitration Scilly PCT panel ahead of the September 2012 hearing have increased County Durham PCT 112,948 11 the external legal effort and therefore the costs. Coventry Teaching PCT 86,669 15 Croydon PCT 67,628 12 CSC Cumbria PCT 106,592 12 The CSC external legal costs have increased due to Darlington PCT 19,088 10 activities associated with the negotiation and agreement Derby City PCT 75,072 16 of an Interim Agreement and Final Agreement, regarding Derbyshire County PCT 115,894 10 the deployment of Lorenzo software in the North, Devon PCT 137,576 11 Midlands and East of England. Doncaster PCT 78,396 13 Dorset PCT 76,161 12 Mental Health Services Dudley PCT 53,540 10 Ealing PCT 90,957 15 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health East Lancashire PCT 81,802 12 what the level of spending was on mental health East Riding of Yorkshire 43,003 9 services in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; what this PCT represented as a proportion of total expenditure in East Sussex Downs and 59,628 10 each primary care trust service in each year; and if he Weald PCT Eastern and Coastal 151,422 12 will make a statement. [105295] Kent Teaching PCT Enfield PCT 66,911 13 Paul Burstow: The data requested for 2011-12 are not Gateshead PCT 50,242 .12 currently available. They are expected to be available Gloucestershire PCT 113,726 12 later in the year. Total national expenditure on mental Great Yarmouth and 48,867 12 health was £11.91 billion in 2010-11. The following Waveney Teaching PCT table shows mental health expenditure for each primary Greenwich Teaching PCT 43,061 9 care trust (PCT) in 2010-11, and the percentage of total Halton and St. Helens 64,666 10 spend that this represents. PCT 867W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 868W

Mental health as a Mental health as a Mental health proportion of total Mental health proportion of total PCT expenditure (£000) expenditure (%) PCT expenditure (£000) expenditure (%)

Hammersmith and 57,754 16 Peterborough PCT 35,900 12 Fulham PCT Plymouth Teaching PCT 60,742 13 Hampshire PCT 218,570 11 Portsmouth City 55,682 16 Haringey Teaching PCT 83,418 16 Teaching PCT Harrow PCT 44,354 12 Redbridge PCT 47,418 11 Hartlepool PCT 22,916 12 Redcar and Cleveland 29,082 11 Hastings and Rother 35,161 10 PCT PCT Richmond and 6,818 2 Havering PCT 44,210 10 Twickenham PCT Heart of Birmingham 92,037 16 Rotherham PCT 59,049 12 Teaching PCT Herefordshire PCT 43,541 15 Salford Teaching PCT 62,460 13 Hertfordshire PCT 168,270 10 Sandwell PCT 98,239 16 Heywood, Middleton 45,996 11 Sefton PCT 60,087 11 and Rochdale PCT Sheffield PCT 147,991 15 Hillingdon PCT 35,911 9 Shropshire County PCT 53,199 11 Hounslow PCT 49,636 12 Hull Teaching PCT 56,944 11 Solihull Care Trust 33,599 8 Isle of Wight Healthcare 42,388 16 Somerset PCT 86,104 10 PCT South Birmingham PCT 89,219 13 Islington PCT 97,717 20 South East Essex PCT 66,130 12 Kensington and Chelsea 60,798 16 PCT South Gloucestershire 31,758 8 PCT Kingston PCT 32,721 12 South Staffordshire PCT 95,491 10 Kirklees PCT 70,990 11 Knowsley PCT 35,744 10 South Tyneside PCT 45,844 14 Lambeth PCT 116,437 17 South West Essex 69,018 10 Teaching PCT Leeds PCT 146,014 11 Leicester City Teaching 72,117 13 Southampton City PCT 57,080 14 PCT Southwark PCT 73,561 13 Leicestershire County 105,885 11 Stockport PCT 50,294 10 and Rutland PCT Stockton on Tees 40,238 12 Lewisham PCT 87,432 16 Teaching PCT Lincolnshire Teaching 119,958 10 PCT Stoke on Trent Teaching 30,714 6 PCT Liverpool PCT 137,458 13 Suffolk PCT 98,111 11 Luton Teaching PCT 34,358 11 Sunderland Teaching 101,837 18 Manchester PCT 150,821 14 PCT Medway Teaching PCT 55,217 12 Surrey PCT 182,627 10 Mid Essex PCT 52,549 10 Sutton and Merton PCT 65,485 10 Middlesbrough PCT 37,673 12 Swindon PCT 37,219 12 Milton Keynes PCT 40,964 11 Tameside and Glossop 46,342 11 Newcastle PCT 89,424 17 PCT Newham PCT 65,254 12 Telford and Wrekin PCT 32,918 12 Norfolk PCT 146,723 12 Torbay Care Trust 34,037 11 North East Essex PCT 58,445 11 Tower Hamlets PCT 70,261 13 North East Lincolnshire 35,689 10 PCT Trafford PCT 37,542 10 North Lancashire PCT 81,095 14 Wakefield District PCT 80,674 12 North Lincolnshire PCT 30,162 11 Walsall Teaching PCT 54,867 11 North Somerset PCT 25,798 8 Waltham Forest PCT 59,498 13 North Staffordshire PCT 43,738 12 Wandsworth PCT 92,951 16 North Tyneside PCT 49,094 12 Warrington PCT 38,929 12 North Yorkshire and 141,982 11 York PCT Warwickshire PCT 111,742 13 Northamptonshire 139,645 13 West Essex PCT 46,324 11 Teaching PCT West Kent PCT 115,228 11 Northumberland Care 62,712 9 West Sussex Teaching 118,999 9 Trust PCT Nottingham City PCT 78,077 14 Western Cheshire PCT 50,462 11 Nottinghamshire County 109,439 10 Teaching PCT Westminster PCT 108,552 20 Oldham PCT 48,552 11 Wiltshire PCT 65,953 10 Oxfordshire PCT 113,886 12 Wirral PCT 73,502 12 869W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 870W

Innovation Fund being fully operational from 1 April Mental health as a Mental health proportion of total 2013. It is too early to give a specific date when these PCT expenditure (£000) expenditure (%) arrangements will be piloted. Wolverhampton City 55,746 12 NHS: Negligence PCT Worcestershire PCT 106,215 12 Notes: Margaret Hodge: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. These figures include PCT, Department of Health, strategic health Health (1) how many medical negligence cases for (a) authority and special health authority expenditure. The table sets out the level maternity, (b) obstetrics and (c) paediatrics were of mental health expenditure for PCTs in 2010-11 and shows this value as a proportion of total PCT expenditure. settled; and how much was paid out in each of the last 2. Calculating programme budgeting data is complex and not all health care five financial years by (i) Barking, Havering and activity or services can be classified directly to a programme budgeting Redbridge University hospitals, (ii) Barts and The category or care setting. When it is not possible to reasonably estimate a programme budgeting category, expenditure is classified as ‘other: London, (iii) Newham University Hospital and (iv) Miscellaneous’. GP contract expenditure cannot be reasonably estimated at Whipps Cross University hospital NHS Trusts; [105001] disease specific level and is separately identified as a subcategory of ’Other’ expenditure (category 23A). (2) which 10 NHS trusts in England had the highest Source: compensation bills for medical negligence on (a) Annual PCT programme budgeting financial returns. obstetrics, (b) paediatrics and (c) maternity in each of the last five years; and how much was paid out by each. Multiple Sclerosis: Palliative Care [105002]

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Simon Burns: The information requested has for Health (1) what palliative treatment is available on been placed in the Library and was provided by the the NHS to people diagnosed with multiple sclerosis; NHS Litigation Authority (NHSLA). [104859] Data does not separately cover maternity because the (2) if he will take steps to increase the provision of NHSLA does not code this separately from obstetrics palliative treatments for patients diagnosed with in its claims database. The amounts paid in a given year multiple sclerosis who are in receipt of benefits and may include payments on settlements made in that year cannot afford to pay for nabiximols and other drugs; as well as payments made against settlements agreed in [104860] earlier years, for example where there are ongoing annual (3) whether his Department was consulted by NHS payments. Coventry’s Area Prescribing Committee on their decision not to fund nabiximols in Coventry and NHS: Reorganisation Warwickshire. [104861] Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State Paul Burstow: The National Institute for Health and for Health pursuant to the answer of 7 February 2011, Clinical Excellence (NICE) has published a clinical Official Report, column 114W, on the NHS: guideline on the management of multiple sclerosis (MS) re-organisation, what recent estimate he has made of in primary and secondary care in the national health the likely cost of redundancy payments following the service. The guideline provides comprehensive evidence- proposed abolition of (a) primary care trusts and (b) based information on the benefits and limitations of the strategic health authorities under the provisions of the various methods of diagnosing, treating and caring for Health and Social Care Act 2012. [104326] people with MS. This helps health professionals and patients, decide on the most appropriate treatment, Mr Simon Burns: The impact assessment, published including palliative care. People with neurological conditions alongside the Health and Social Care Bill, estimated nearing the end of their life should have access to a that the redundancies resulting from the modernisation range of palliative care services as and when they need will cost £810 million. The estimate for total redundancy them—to control symptoms, offer pain relief, and to costs related to staff employed in primary care trusts is meet any personal needs they may have. £634 million, and the estimate for strategic health authorities NICE is currently updating this clinical guideline on is £84 million. MS, and nabiximols are one of the new interventions This upfront cost will result in a £1.5 billion saving being considered. In the absence of NICE technology per year by 2014-15, which is a one-third reduction in appraisal guidance on a drug, it is for the local NHS to the administrative spending across the system. The upfront make funding decisions based on the available evidence costs of the modernisation will be more than recouped and an individual patient’s circumstances. As nabiximols from the cost-savings by the end of 2012-13. fall into this category, it would not be appropriate for The impact assessment is available at: the Department to be consulted on a local decision of www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ this sort. PublicationsLegislation/DH_123583 NHS: Innovation A copy has already been placed in the Library.

Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for Palliative Care Health on what day in 2012-13 he will launch the pilot of the Specialised Services Commissioning Innovation Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Fund. [105069] Health what arrangements are being made for the commissioning of children’s palliative care services in Mr Simon Burns: Development of the detailed operating Worcestershire following the introduction of NHS arrangements is under way, which will be tested later reforms; and what representations his Department has this year, ahead of the Specialised Services Commissioning received on this matter. [104450] 871W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 872W

Anne Milton: The majority of clinical interventions Paul Burstow: This information is not available in the will be commissioned by Clinical Commissioning Groups format requested. Information concerning the mean (CCGs) although for some services, a collaborative, or length of stay for patients undergoing open, laparoscopic in a small number of cases, a national approach may be and robotically-assisted excisions of the prostate that appropriate. We expect that most children’s palliative took place in each national health service acute trust in care services will therefore be commissioned by CCGs. England from 2006-07 to 2010-11 and mean length of The Department has received recent correspondence stay for patients undergoing excisions of the prostate from my hon. Friend on behalf of Acorns, a provider of that took place in each NHS trust from 2001-02 to children’s palliative care services in Worcestershire. 2005-06 has been placed in the Library. Prior to 2006-07, it is only possible to identify whether Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman an excision of the prostate took place as coding does not identify the method by which the excision was Mark Pawsey: To ask the Secretary of State for carried out. From 2006-07 onwards a series of codes Health what the cost was of the Parliamentary and were introduced to allow the identification of the means Health Service Ombudsman in each of the last five of excision. financial years. [104659] Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Simon Burns: The Parliamentary and Health for Health how many (a) open, (b) laparoscopic and Service Ombudsman is independent of Government (c) robotically-assisted excisions of the prostate took and accountable to Parliament through the Public place in each NHS acute trust in England in each of Administration Select Committee. Their annual reports, the last 10 years. [104243] including financial information are available online at: www.ombudsman.org.uk/about-us/publications/annual- Paul Burstow: This information is not available in the reports format requested. Information concerning the number Plastic Surgery of finished consultant episodes for open, laparoscopic and robotically-assisted excisions of the prostate that Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for took place in each national health service acute trust in Health (1) what steps he is taking to ensure the safety England from 2006-07 to 2010-11 and the number of of patients undergoing intradermal filler procedures; excisions of the prostate that took place in each NHS [105162] trust from 2001-02 to 2005-06 has been placed in the Library. (2) when his Department plans to publish its guidelines on (a) who can prescribe intradermal fillers, Prior to 2006-07, it is only possible to identify whether (b) who can administer intradermal filler procedures an excision of the prostate took place as coding does and (c) the level of appropriate professional training not identify the method by which the excision was required. [105164] carried out. From 2006-07 onwards a series of codes were introduced to allow the identification of the means Mr Simon Burns: The materials used in intradermal of excision. fillers used for medical purposes are regulated under the European Union’s medical devices directives. The possibility Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of of further regulation for these procedures, including the State for Health what progress has been made on regulation of the practitioners who can administer dermal establishing a quality standard for the treatment of fillers, will be considered as part of Sir Bruce Keogh’s prostate cancer; and if he will make a statement. review into cosmetic interventions. [105221]

Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Burstow: We have asked the National Institute Health (1) which groups the NHS Medical Director for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) to develop a will be consulting as part of his review of the cosmetic quality standard on prostate cancer, as part of a library surgery industry; and if he will publish a schedule of of approximately 170 NHS quality standards. NICE is planned consultations; [105165] preparing this quality standard alongside an update of its existing clinical guideline on prostate cancer. NICE (2) when the NHS Medical Director expects to currently expects to complete the update of its prostate consult the British Association of Dermatologists as cancer guideline in late 2013. part of his review of the regulation of the cosmetic surgery industry. [105166] Radiotherapy Mr Simon Burns: All organisations with an interest in Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for the review by the NHS Medical Director will be given Health (1) if he will take steps to ensure clinical the opportunity to submit evidence. An announcement commissioning groups have dedicated plans for will be made in the near future. replacing existing linear accelerators to deliver Prostate Cancer treatment as they reach the end of their working life; [104400] Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State (2) by what means radiotherapy treatment will be for Health what the mean length of stay for patients commissioned after April 2013. [104401] undergoing (a) open, (b) laparoscopic and (c) robotically-assisted excision of the prostate was in each Paul Burstow: From April 2013, radiotherapy services NHS acute trust in England in each of the last 10 years. will either be commissioned by Clinical Commissioning [104242] Groups or by the NHS Commissioning Board. No final 873W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 874W decisions have yet been taken on which services will be Civil servants in directly commissioned by the board. Work is in hand to grades define the list of services for direct commissioning and administration Ministers expect to be in a position to confirm those April to March officer to grade Senior civil each year 6 (AO-G6) servants Total services in the summer. Individual national health service trusts are responsible 2010-11 24 8 32 for replacing capital equipment, such as linear accelerators, 2011-12 47 7 54 that is at the end of its useful working life. We expect The Department has also approved a number of trusts to plan strategically and manage their capital voluntary exits since March 2010. Of those who have expenditure to ensure that they can replace high value left, the information about those who have chosen to equipment. It is up to trusts to prioritise their investments. access their pension before their normal retirement age One of the cancer Peer Review Measures require is given in the following table. This group were at least local organisations to agree an equipment replacement minimum pension age, which is the earliest point an programme with their cancer networks in order to avoid individual can access their pension benefits. the life of a linear accelerator extending beyond the recommended 10 years. This measure is assessed as part Civil servants in of the Cancer Peer Review Programme. grades AO to Senior civil G6 servants Total Tariff pricing includes depreciation for capital equipment and therefore contributes the cash to fund capital May 2010 to 527 expenditure. Trusts have the ability to build up cash March 2011 April 2011 to 64 28 92 reserves from income to fund high value equipment. March 2012 Depreciation charges should be enough to cover like for like replacement, depreciation on equipment and buildings There have also been four medical retirements in comes to £2.1 billion per year. There is capital money in 2010-11—three at grades AO to G6 and one senior civil the system for new machines where these are needed. servant. Commissioners have a role in ensuring that quality Skin Cancer standards are maintained and patients have access to the latest recommended technology. Mrs Siân C. James: To ask the Secretary of State for ‘Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer’, published Health how much funding his Department has in January 2011, sets out our commitment to expand allocated to public health campaigns aimed at raising radiotherapy capacity by investing over £150 million in awareness of skin cancer in (a) 2010-11 and (b) additional funding over the next four years. This will 2011-12. [104293] support increased utilisation of existing equipment, establish new services to increase capacity in some areas and ensure that all high priority patients with a need for Paul Burstow: SunSmart is the national skin cancer proton beam therapy treatment get access to it abroad. prevention campaign run on behalf of the United Kingdom Health Departments by Cancer Research UK. In 2009-10, the Department provided £615,000 to the campaign Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for and for 2011-12 we have contributed £500,000. Health whether he plans to publish the national tariff for radiotherapy in April 2013. [104402] In 2011-12 this money has supported the production and distribution of educational materials, a schools Mr Simon Burns: For 2012-13, the use of currencies campaign, helped local providers working on skin cancer (the unit of health care for which payment is made) for prevention and delivered a major targeted marketing external beam radiotherapy has been mandated. Non- campaign in conjunction with the popular music festival mandatory tariff prices have been published however ‘T4 on the Beach’. these are indicative and commissioners and providers Cancer Research UK is also currently running ‘R UV can agree local pricing. Ugly’, a campaign funded by a £150,000 Third Sector We will make a decision later this year whether to Investment Programme grant from the Department, to introduce mandatory tariffs for 2013-14, based on feedback raise awareness of the dangers of sunbeds and the about the non-mandatory prices for 2012-13. benefits of skin checks. The campaign is being run in partnership with SK:n who are providing free ultraviolet scans in their clinics across the UK. Retirement Social Services Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many staff of his Department retired in (a) Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; how many such staff were whether personalised care budgets can be used to taking early retirement in each such year; and if he will purchase care from a local authority and not solely make a statement. [104566] from an independent provider. [105222]

Mr Simon Burns: For the purposes of this parliamentary Paul Burstow: Personal budgets are intended to enable question, the Department defines retirement as happening the personalisation of social care services by allocating when a member of staff decides to leave our employment a budget to people. Personal budgets do not have a at or after the pension age for their pension scheme. For legislative basis and describe a management arrangement the majority of the Department’s civil servants pension operated by local authorities. A direct payment is one age is 60. The following table gives this information. way in which the individual can choose to take that 875W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 876W money in order to meet their needs, but personal budgets among hard-to-reach groups, published in March 2012, do not have to involve a cash exchange with the service what funding he plans to allocate to implement user. screening and treatment of latent tuberculosis for A personal budget can be taken by an individual in substance misusers and ex-prisoners; [104513] the following different ways: (3) whether he plans to expand Find and Treat as a direct (cash) payment; held by the individual. Direct mobile screening services in (a) London and (b) other payments were established in law in 1996; metropolitan areas with an incidence of tuberculosis of as an account held and managed by the council in line with the over 40 people per 10,000 population; [104514] individual’s wishes; or as an account placed with a third party (4) if he will implement the recommended ratio of (provider) and called off by the individual; one full-time equivalent case manager per 40 or as a mixture of these approaches. tuberculosis incident cases requiring regular case If an individual prefers to receive local council services management, and one per 20 incident cases requiring to meet some of their assessed care needs, the council enhanced case management. [104516] may agree to offer a combination of direct payments and services. Anne Milton: The commissioning and provision of Personal budget holders can still choose to receive tuberculosis (TB) services is a matter for local national services provided by their council. Alternatively, the health service organisations and their partners, such as budget can be held by a third party acting on behalf of local authorities, to determine according to local needs the service user—such as an individual carer, provider, and circumstances. We would expect them to take into trust or specialist broker. However the personal budget account the recommendations made in the recent guidance is deployed, the same principles remain: from the National Institute for Health and Clinical the individual has been informed about a clear, upfront allocation Excellence, ‘Identifying and managing tuberculosis among of funding; hard-to-reach groups’, when planning and commissioning there is an agreed care plan making clear what outcomes are to such services. be achieved with that money; and The NHS and public health system reforms will the individual can use the money in ways and at times of their provide opportunities for more integrated planning and choosing. commissioning of services for TB through health and wellbeing boards, and collaborative working by clinical Thalidomide commissioning groups, providers and local authorities, supported by the NHS Commissioning Board and Public Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health England. (1) what considerations he has given to continuing the thalidomide health grant beyond 2012; [104284] Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State (2) if he will consider making his Department’s for Health what steps he is taking to ensure adequate thalidomide health grant permanently available and and timely tuberculosis screening and treatment for linking increases in the grant to the consumer prices prisoners. [104355] index. [104451] Paul Burstow: The Department and the Health Protection Paul Burstow: The Thalidomide Grant is a three-year Agency published guidance for prison staff to improve pilot, running from April 2010 until March 2013, to the detection of infectious diseases, including tuberculosis explore how the health needs of Thalidomide survivors (TB), in prisons, “Prevention of infection and communicable can best be met in the longer term and how such a disease control in prisons and places of detention” in scheme might be applied to other small groups of August 2011. A copy of this publication has been geographically dispersed patients with specialised needs. placed in the Library and is available online at: Departmental officials met with members of the National www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/ Advisory Council to the Thalidomide Trust in June 1309970446427 2010, to discuss their evaluation of the first year. Further meetings will be held to discuss years two and three and Eight prisons in England have been equipped with we will consider the future of the grant further into the digital x-ray machines and related information technology pilot. systems to improve detection of infectious TB earlier in the course of imprisonment and to reduce the risk of We expect to receive an evaluation report on the onward transmission. second year from the National Advisory Council shortly; a meeting will then be arranged in response to that The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence report to discuss progress. published good practice guidance “Identifying and managing tuberculosis among hard-to-reach groups” in Tuberculosis March aimed at raising awareness, identifying and managing TB in hard to reach groups, including the homeless, Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State prisoners and vulnerable migrants. A copy of this for Health (1) what resources (a) are available and (b) publication has been placed in the Library and is available will be made available for housing of tuberculosis online at: patients as recommended by the National Institute for www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/13683/58591/58591.pdf Health and Clinical Excellence’s guidance on Under the Health and Social Care Act 2012, tuberculosis in hard to reach groups; [104303] responsibility for commissioning offender health care (2) with reference to the National Institute for passes from primary care trusts to the national health Health and Clinical Excellence’s public health service Commissioning Board (NHSCB) in April 2013. guidance 37, Identifying and managing tuberculosis From this date, the NHSCB will commission services 877W Written Answers24 APRIL 2012 Written Answers 878W for prisoners of all ages and secure the same access to The National Knowledge Service—Tuberculosis, health and social care services and appropriate to their provided by the Health Protection Agency, has published needs in line with the standards set for the rest of the a range of resources aimed at improving the knowledge population. and understanding of TB among those who may work with people at risk of the disease. These include hostels for the homeless and services for substance misusers, Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State asylum seekers and children. for Health what steps his Department is taking to address reports of discrimination against and exclusion The Department has funded TB Alert, the national of individuals with tuberculosis by some social services TB charity, to raise public and professional awareness agencies. [104638] of TB. Vacancies

Paul Burstow: Local authorities (LAs) are specified Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in Schedule 19 of Equality Act 2010 and as such, are how many job vacancies there were for (a) staff posts covered by the general equality duty in relation to all of and (b) senior Civil Service posts in his Department on their functions. This means that in the exercise of their 31 March (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012; and if he will functions, LAs must have due regard to the need to make a statement. [104567] eliminate unlawful discrimination, harassment and victimisation and other conduct prohibited by the Act Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not hold and advance equality of opportunity between people information, in the form requested, for 31 March 2010 who share a protected characteristic and those who do and 2011 so has provided information on the numbers not. of vacancies advertised in each of these respective financial Disability is defined as a protected characteristic years. We are able to provide details on job vacancies as under the Act as a physical or mental impairment which at 31 March 2012. These are set out in the following has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on people’s tables. ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities. The The Department introduced recruitment controls in Department considers that people with tuberculosis November 2009, to establish the affordability and suitability (TB) are very likely to fall within this definition and of all posts for recruitment, internally and externally. should therefore enjoy the protections afforded by the Since the announcement of the civil service recruitment legislation. freeze on 24 May 2010, controls have been tightened.

Senior civil servants Civil servants in grades administration officer to grade 6 External1 Internal2 External1 Internal2

2009-10 4 18 31 115 2010-11 2 4 2 321 1 Excludes secondments into the Department 2 Includes trawls across other Government Departments

Senior civil servants Civil servants in grades AO to G6 External Internal External Internal

31 March 2012 0 4 0 186

5MC Ministerial Corrections24 APRIL 2012 Ministerial Corrections 6MC Ministerial Correction Letter of correction from Peter Luff: An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) Tuesday 24 April 2012 on 1 March 2012. The full answer given was as follows: Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence does not have DEFENCE any contracts with A4e. Action for Employment The correct answer should have been: Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence has one contract Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for with A4e. This is for the provision of a trial of early leaver Defence what contracts his Department has with A4e; services, to assist service personnel leaving the armed and what the (a) purpose and (b) monetary value is of forces with their transition back into civilian life. The each such contract. [97018] contract is for a period of 12 months, commencing February [Official Report, 1 March 2012, Vol. 541, c. 436W.] 2012, and has a nil value contract management fee.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 24 April 2012

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 791 TREASURY—continued Age-related Income Tax Allowances ...... 797 Manufacturing Sector ...... 793 Bank Bonus Tax...... 791 National Infrastructure Plan...... 798 Budget Changes ...... 803 Small Businesses ...... 796 Budget Deficit...... 794 Small Businesses ...... 805 Caravans (VAT)...... 801 Tax Collection...... 801 Euro Preparations Unit...... 802 Tax Incremental Finance Scheme...... 804 Growth Strategy...... 800 Topical Questions ...... 806 Income Tax ...... 799 Working Tax Credit ...... 804 Income Tax ...... 805 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 24 April 2012

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 35WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 36WS Malawi...... 35WS Social Fund Budgeting Loans...... 36WS TRANSPORT ...... 36WS Parliamentary Written Answer (Correction) ...... 36WS PETITION

Tuesday 24 April 2012

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 3P Prevention of Development on Green Belt Land ... 3P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 24 April 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 772W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Vacancies ...... 772W Trade Competitiveness ...... 825W UK Trade and Industry Defence and Security Organisation: Human Rights...... 827W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 815W Apprentices...... 815W Aviation: Treaties ...... 816W CABINET OFFICE...... 796W Business: Government Assistance ...... 816W Charities ...... 796W Companies: United Arab Emirates ...... 817W Contracts for Services ...... 796W English Language: Training ...... 817W Deaths: Asbestos...... 796W EU Emissions Trading Scheme ...... 818W Divorce ...... 797W EU Emissions Trading Scheme: Aviation ...... 818W Electronic Government ...... 797W EU Emissions Trading Scheme: Manufacturing Third Sector...... 798W Industries...... 819W Fossil Fuels: Export Credit Guarantees ...... 819W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 783W Higher Education...... 819W Addison Lee...... 783W Industrial Development Act 1982: Northern Building Regulations...... 783W Ireland ...... 820W Debt Collection...... 783W Manpower...... 820W Homes and Communities Agency...... 784W Motor Vehicles...... 820W Housing: Disabled...... 784W National Careers Service...... 821W Housing: Energy ...... 785W National Careers Service: Location...... 822W Incinerators: Nottinghamshire ...... 785W Pay...... 822W Legal Costs ...... 785W Postgraduate Education ...... 822W Planning Permission ...... 786W Public Consultation ...... 823W Procurement...... 787W Public Consultation: Internet...... 823W Public Sector: Land...... 787W Regional Planning and Development...... 824W Travellers: Caravan Sites ...... 787W Sunday Trading...... 823W Tuberculosis...... 787W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 769W HEALTH—continued Afghanistan ...... 769W Colorectal Cancer ...... 860W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 769W Complex Disability Equipment Clinical Reference Lynx Helicopters...... 769W Group ...... 860W Military Bases: Carbon Emissions ...... 770W Diabetes ...... 861W Official Secrets ...... 770W Diseases ...... 862W Research ...... 770W Drugs: Prices...... 862W Submarines: Accidents...... 771W General Practitioners ...... 863W Health Education...... 863W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 801W Health Services: Detention Centres...... 863W Addison Lee...... 801W Legal Costs ...... 865W Peter Cruddas ...... 801W Mental Health Services ...... 865W Multiple Sclerosis: Palliative Care ...... 869W EDUCATION...... 802W NHS: Innovation ...... 869W Adoption: Birmingham...... 802W NHS: Negligence ...... 870W Child Rearing...... 803W NHS: Reorganisation...... 870W Children: Armed Forces...... 804W Palliative Care...... 870W Curriculum: Sustainable Development...... 804W Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman..... 871W Dyslexia ...... 804W Plastic Surgery ...... 871W Free School Meals...... 805W Prostate Cancer...... 871W Free Schools...... 805W Radiotherapy ...... 872W Park Lane School: Halifax...... 805W Retirement ...... 873W Pre-school Education...... 806W Skin Cancer ...... 874W Schools: Hygiene...... 808W Social Services...... 874W Teachers: First Aid...... 808W Thalidomide...... 875W Tuberculosis...... 875W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 773W Vacancies ...... 878W Addison Lee...... 773W Electricity...... 773W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 777W Energy: Billing ...... 773W Kidnapping: Children ...... 777W Energy: Conservation...... 773W Police: Corruption...... 777W Legal Costs ...... 774W Meters...... 774W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 776W Meters: Rural Areas...... 774W Listed Buildings ...... 776W Nuclear Power...... 775W Official Secrets ...... 775W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 843W Procurement...... 775W Children’s Rights ...... 843W Public Consultation ...... 776W Climate Change ...... 843W Developing Countries ...... 844W Developing Countries: Females...... 846W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Developing Countries: Health Services ...... 846W AFFAIRS...... 779W Developing Countries: Minerals ...... 847W Animal Welfare ...... 779W Developing Countries: Sustainable Development... 847W Animal Welfare: Slaughterhouses ...... 780W Egypt ...... 847W Badgers ...... 780W Horn of Africa...... 848W Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control...... 781W Meetings ...... 848W Horses: Tagging ...... 781W Morocco ...... 848W Pigs: Animal Welfare...... 782W Official Secrets ...... 849W Rabbits: Animal Welfare ...... 782W Palestinians ...... 849W Shellfish: Animal Welfare...... 783W Public Consultation ...... 849W Southern Sudan ...... 850W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 832W St Helena: Airports ...... 850W Afghanistan ...... 832W Egypt ...... 832W JUSTICE...... 808W EU Staff...... 833W Children: Custody...... 809W India ...... 834W Domestic Violence ...... 809W Israel: Palestinians ...... 834W Kennet Prison ...... 809W Overseas Companies ...... 834W Law Society...... 808W Public Consultation ...... 835W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 809W Somalia...... 835W Legal Aid Scheme: Domestic Violence...... 810W Sudan: South Sudan ...... 836W Prisons: Mental Health Services...... 810W Syria...... 836W Public Consultation ...... 811W Travel ...... 837W Vacancies ...... 811W Yemen ...... 837W Witnesses ...... 812W Young Offenders: Greater Manchester...... 812W HEALTH...... 850W Abortion ...... 850W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 772W Aerials: Health Hazards...... 850W Electronic Government: Petitions ...... 772W Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse...... 851W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 772W Birth Certificates...... 852W Cancer ...... 852W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 801W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome ...... 858W Political Parties ...... 801W Col. No. Col. No. SCOTLAND...... 829W TREASURY—continued Devolution...... 829W Tobacco ...... 842W Legal Costs ...... 829W Unemployment ...... 838W Public Consultation ...... 829W VAT ...... 842W Retirement ...... 830W Working Tax Credit ...... 843W Sovereignty ...... 830W Vacancies ...... 831W WALES...... 827W Government: Ministerial Meetings ...... 827W TRANSPORT ...... 777W Legal Costs ...... 827W Night Flying ...... 777W Public Consultation ...... 827W Railways: Disability ...... 778W Public Sector: Pay ...... 828W Railways: Tickets ...... 778W Retirement ...... 828W Rescue Services ...... 778W Vacancies ...... 828W Traffic Orders...... 779W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 788W TREASURY ...... 838W Council Tax Benefits...... 788W Bank Services: Fees and Charges ...... 839W Employment Schemes ...... 789W Business ...... 839W Foreign Workers...... 789W Communications Capabilities Development Housing Benefit ...... 790W Programme ...... 839W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 790W Exports: Licensing ...... 839W Motability...... 790W Government: Ministerial Meetings ...... 840W Remploy...... 790W Income Tax ...... 840W Retirement ...... 792W Income Tax Threshold ...... 838W Social Security Benefits...... 792W Interest Rates ...... 839W Social Security Benefits: Disability...... 792W Maternity Payments...... 841W State Retirement Pensions...... 793W Public Appointments ...... 841W Universal Credit...... 793W Tax Allowances: Charitable Donations ...... 842W Work Capability Assessment...... 794W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 24 April 2012

Col. No. DEFENCE...... 5MC Action for Employment...... 5MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 1 May 2012

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 24 April 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 791] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Stephen Lawrence [Col. 813] Answer to urgent question—(James Brokenshire)

Housing (Selective Licensing of Private Landlords in Exempted Areas) [Col. 822] Bill presented, and read the First time

Food Labelling (Halal and Kosher Meat) [Col. 823] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Philip Davies)—on a Division, negatived

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill [Col. 830] Lords message considered

Section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993 [Col. 855] Motion—(Mr Hoban)—on a Division, agreed to

Data Protection in the Areas of Police and Criminal Justice (EU Directive) [Col. 884] Motion to take note of EC document—(Mr Blunt)—on a Division, agreed to

National Planning Policy Framework [Col. 912] Motion—(Greg Clark)—lapsed

Petition [Col. 922] Broadband Services (Dodworth, South Yorkshire)

Group Lotus [Col. 923] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall School Funding [Col. 189WH] Uganda (Human Rights) [Col. 214WH] Association of Chief Police Officers [Col. 237WH] Equality and Human Rights Commission [Col. 245WH] Local Authorities (Procurement) [Col. 253WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 35WS]

Petition [Col. 3P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 769W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]