712 Printed Questions and Answers [ASSEMBLY] Printed Questions and Answers programme will be 600,000 acres short in were generally aware. The task of install­ national terms by the year 2000", we will ing artificial lighting in all school accommo­ join him in going to Canberra and saying, dation at present inadequately lighted by "This is not enough: let us see whether modern standards is a considerable one, you can do something better." which because of the extent and cost of Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr the work involved cannot be accomplished Mauger. within a short space of time. It is the practice of the department to install full House adjourned on motion by Mr Jack Beale, lighting in all new buildings now erected at 4.4 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, lOth September, 1968. and at the same time to endeavour to ar­ range, as far as resources and other com­ mitments permit, for the installation of lighting in existing classrooms especially where it is found that natural lighting is poor. It is my aim, and every effort will 1J.jr gtnluttur .Annrmbly be made to ensure that this is achieved, Tuesday, 10 September, 1968 that good lighting is provided in all school buildings. (2) I do not consider that the report referred to, which was prepared by Printed Questions and Answers-Ministerial Arrange­ ments-Questions without Notice-Crime (Urgency) one department for the guidance of and -Legislative Council (Return of Writ)-Public with the co-operation of another, should be Trustee-Bursary Endowment (Amendment) Bill -Sessional Orders (Business Days: Hours of tabled, or that to do so would be productive Sitting-Precedence of Business)-Sessional Com­ of any real benefit in view of the circum­ mittees-commonwealth-State Financial Relations -Softwood Forestry Agreement Bill (second read­ stances set out above. ing)-University of New South Wales Bill­ Fisheries and Oyster Farms (Amendment) Bill (second reading)-Adjournment (Tempe Junior Boys High School and Primary School). UNIVERSITY BUILDINGS Mr PETERSEN asked the DEPUTY PRE­ MIER, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION AND Mr SPEAKER (THE HoN. KEVIN ELLIS) MINISTER FOR SCIENCE-(1) (a) What is took the chair at 2.30 p.m. the estimated total capital expenditure on Mr SPEAKER offered the Prayer. university buildings in the metropolitan areas of Sydney, Newcastle and Wollon­ gong during the current 1967-1969 PRINTED QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS triennium? (b) Are these expenditures in proportion to the relative populations of the LIGHTING OF SCHOOLS IN ILLAWARRA three areas? (2) (a) Has work yet com­ REGION menced on the Arts-Commerce buildings at Mr PETERSEN asked the DEPUTY PRE­ the Wollongong University College? (b) Is MIER, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION AND it still anticipated that this building will be MINISTER FOR SCIENCE-(1) Has he re­ ceived a report compiled in 1967 by Dr completed towards the end .of 1969? (c) Wallace of the Department of Public Health What is now being constructed on the site regarding lighting in public schools in the of this proposed building? ( 3) What is Illawarra region? (2) If so, will he table the number of volumes per student in the this report in the House? libraries of-(a) Wollongong University Answer-(I) It is true that a report was College ; (b) Newcastle University; (c) prepared by the Department of Public Macquarie University; (d) New England Health following a survey of some thirty University; (e) University of New South schools in the Wollongong area during Wales; (f) University of Sydney? 1967. This report which sets out in some Answer-(1) (a) Total capital expendi­ detail the results of tests made in class­ rooms, draws attention to some shortcom­ ture, borne equally by State and Common­ ings in the lighting of school buildings of wealth authorities, on university buildings which however, officers of my department in the metropolitan areas of Sydney, New- Printed Questions and Answers [10 SEPT., 1968] Printed Questions and Answers 713 castle and Wollongong during the current student population attending university 1967-69 triennium is as follows: Sydney­ courses at Sydney, Newcastle and Wollon­ $28,020,847; Newcastle-$3,600,000; Wol­ gong, the per capita expenditure at 31st longong-$1,012,000. (b) Based on March, 1967, is as follows:

Students (full-time, part­ *E.F.T.S. time and external) $ $ Sydney 984.71 1,078.52 Newcastle 2,022.47 2,623.90 Wollongong 1,403.60 2,153.19 *Equivalent Full-time Students (the measure used by the Australian Universities Commission, where an external student counts as t, and a part-time student as t, of a full-time student)

(2) (a) No. It is expected that tenders is vacant at present. (3) Based on 1967 will be received in October and that con­ figures, the number of volumes per student struction will commence .before the end of in the university libraries, in question, is as 1968. (b) Yes. (c) Nothing. The site follows:

(i) (ii) Students E.F.T.S. (a) W

LADIES' HAIRDRESSING In 1965 no visits were made, in 1966, ESTABLISHMENTS eighteen visits and in 1967, eighty-five visits. Mr GRASSBY asked the MINISTER FOR The only inspections which have been car­ LABOUR AND INDUSTRY, CJuEp SECRETARY ried out over the past four years at Easter AND MINISTER FOR TOURISM-( 1) How time were made as a result of specific com­ many ladies' hairdressing establishments plaints lodged with the department. (2) were visited by officers of the Department of Labour and Industry on Easter Saturday, On Easter Saturday, 1968, only one town, 1968, and what were the numbers of such Gruflth, was visited. This visit was made visits in the years 1965, 1966 and 1967? as a result of complaints lodged, .prior to (2) In how many towns did these visits Easter, by the Griffith branch of the Master ta:ke place on Easter Saturday, 1968? (3) Ladies Hairdressing Association on whose How many prosecutions have been initiated as a result of the investigations on Easter behalf Mr Grassby has in the past made Saturday, 1968? · representations. The association reported Answer-( 1) Five ladies' hairdressing that certain hairdressers intended to remain establishments were visited by officers of open on Easter Saturday in contravention the department on Easter Saturday, 1968. of the law and in defiance of warnings 714 Printed Questions and Answers [ASSEMBLY] Printed Questions and Answers given by the association. (3) Two pro­ the waiting time for pensioner patients for secutions were launched as a result of in­ admission to public wards at these hospitals vestigations on Easter Saturday, 1968. longer than the waiting time for admission of non-pensioner patients? LIGHTING AND HEATING OF SCHOOLS Answer-(1) (a) Public ward patients­ Port Kembla District Hospital-seven Mr HOUGH asked the DEPUTY PRE­ weeks; Wollongong Hospital-eight weeks. MIER, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION AND (b) Intermediate patients-Port Kembla MINISTER FOR SCIENCE-( 1) Are many District Hospital-eight weeks; Wollon­ schools in need of modern lighting and gong Hospital-eight weeks. (2) No. heating? (2) If so, will he have these Waiting time for pensioner patients is as installed in all new school buildings and follows-Port Kembla District Hospital­ also give ·consideration to their installation six weeks; Wollongong Hospital-eight in all old buildings? ( 3) Has he received weeks. a report on lighting in schools in southern areas? The admission of patients to any public hospital is dependent on the medical Answer-( 1) There are some schools urgency and necessity. Accordingly, in some throughout the State which require artificial cases patients may be required to wait, for lighting and improved heating facilities. In admission to a hospital, for a period which general, few schools' classrooms, staffrooms, may be considered to be lengthy in view etc., would be without heating where such of the admission of patients requiring im­ is needed. (2) It is my department's prac­ mediate treatment due to medical necessity. tice to install full lighting in all new school buildings and also improved heating de­ vices operated by electricity or gas. The BREACHES OF TRADING HOURS department is aware of the need for similar REGULATIONS facilities in existing school buildings and to this end a comprehensive improvement Mr R. J. KELLY asked the MINISTER programme is under way. This pro­ FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY, CHIEF SECRE­ gramme is proceeding as quickly as pos­ TARY AND MINISTER FOR TOURISM-( 1) sible in the light of limited resources avail­ How many shopkeepers have been detected able and the department's other commit­ trading outside legal trading hours since ments. (3) The report referred to on 13th May, 1965? (2) iHow many of these lighting in schools in southern areas is pre­ shopkeepers have been prosecuted? (3) sumably one prepared by the Department of What is the total amount of fines collected Public Health following a survey of some since 13th May, 1965? thirty schools in the Wollongong area. This Answer-( 1) Statistical records in the report which sets out in some detail the Department of Labour and Industry do not results of tests made in classrooms, draws cover the numbers of shopkeepers "detected attention to some shortcomings in the light­ trading outside legal trading hours" for the ing of school buildings of which however, whole of the period since 13th May, 1965. officers of my department were generally Such shopkeepers, usually when so detected aware. for the first time, are often only warned. Thus the number detected would be con­ siderably greater than the number prose­ PORT KEMBLA AND WOLLONGONG cuted, for which statistics are readily avail­ HOSPITALS able. (2} Since 13th May, 1965, 1,527 Mr L. B. KELLY asked the MINISTER shopkeepers have been prosecuted by the FOR HEALTH, MINISTER FOR CHILD WEL­ department. Of course, some of these pro­ FARE AND MINISTER FOR SOCIAL WELFARE secutions would be .for breaches committed prior to that date. However, this would be -( 1) What is the present waiting time for offset by pending prosecutions. Three hun­ admission of (a) public ward patients, and dred and ninety-one shopkeepers have also (b) intermediate ward patients, to the Port been prosecuted during this time by indus­ Kembla and Wollongong hospitals? (2) Is trial unions of employers or employees. (3) Printed Questions and Answers [10 SEPT., 1968] Ministerial Arrangements 715 Fines totalling $76,943 have been imposed commenced its first term of office-and by magistrates for prosecutions launched by June, 1968, the latest quarter for which the department since 13th May, 1965, and statistics are available, the consumer price prosecutions by industrial unions resulted in index-all groups-rose by the following fines of $4,273 being imposed. percentages: Perth-10.9 per cent; Bris­ bane-10.09 per cent; Adelaide-9. 78 per PRICE CONTROL cent; Melbourne-9.67 per cent; Hobart- 9.24 per cent; Sydney-8.75 per cent. Mr L. B. KELLY asked the MINISTER FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY, CHIEF SECRE­ Probably the most important component TARY AND MINISTER FOR TOURISM-( 1) in the index is the food group, for which (a) Are bread and petrol the only two the percentage increases were: Adelaide- items under price control in New South 12.41 per cent; Perth-12.15 per cent; Wales? (b) If so, what basis is used in Melbourne-10.9 per cent; Brisbane-9.79 establishing the respective retail prices? ( 2) per cent; Hobart-9.62 per cent; Sydney Is consideration being given to placing other -8.06 per cent. items under piice control? If so, what are these items? One of the major factors in price in­ creases is, of course, wage increases, and Answer-(1) (a) Yes, bread and, to be during the period covered by the percentage more specific, the reseller's margin on pet­ price increases shown above, wage fixing rol are the only two commodities subject authorities have been granting improved to price control in New South Wales under wages and conditions to employees. Dur­ the Prices Regulation Act. In fact they have ing the period between the quarter ended been the only commodities price controlled March, 1965, and March, 1968-which are under the Act during the past ten years. the latest for which earnings figures are (b) The determination of the prices is the available for purposes of comparison-the sole responsibility of the Prices Commis­ average weekly earnings per employed male sioner. It is provided under the Act that unit in New South Wales rose by 18.3 per the commissioner may in his absolute dis­ cent or $9.90. In the same period the cost cretion fix and declare the maximum prices of living in New South Wales, as indicated at which these goods may be sold. by the consumer price index, rose by only (2) Concerning the extension of price 8.98 per cent or approximately $2.84 per control, the honourable member may recall week. my recent reply to a similar question, namely, that the Government will con­ In view of the above, it would seem that tinue the policy of keeping price further extensions of price control in New levels under review without imposing South Wales would be unnecessary at the any more restrictions than are neces­ present time. sary, which is consistent with the policy followed by the Labor Government that preceded the present Government. I MINISTERIAL ARRANGEMENTS should like to point out that rising prices Mr ASKIN: I desire to inform the and wages have been a feature of the Aus­ House that on 3rd September, 1968, the tralian economy for many years now and Hon. Arnold Henry J ago, M.L.A., resigned no government of this or any other State, whether Liberal, Country Party or Labor, from the offices of Minister for Child Wel­ has been in a position to halt price rises. fare and Minister for Social Welfare, and However, the present Liberal-Country Party that on the same day the Hon. Frederick Government in New South Wales, since it Maclean Hewitt, M.L.C., was appointed as came into office has achieved better results Minister for Child Welfare and Minister than any of the other States. Official for Social Welfare. The Attorney-General figures released by the Commonwealth will represent in this House the Minister Statistician show that between June, 1965 for Child Welfare and Minister for Social -shortly after the present Government Welfare. 716 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE is not satisfied with the present position, does he propose any action to seek more HIGH SCHOOLS: STUDENT adequate powers, perhaps by the means UNDERGROUND proposed by me in my recent letter to him Mr MEAlD: I ask the Deputy Premier, requesting an inquiry by an interdepart­ Minister for Education and Minister for mental committee, leading perhaps to a Science whether he has seen reports that special Act of Parliament to control the some students are distributing 12,000 copies matter, similar to that recently passed in of a propaganda sheet called Student Under­ Queensland? ground in 100 high schools? Has the Min­ Mr MORTON: I take it that the honour­ ister noted that this sheet was prepared at able member for Wyong is referring to the Marxist revolutionary bookshop in the beach erosion as a whole. This is a very city, which was raided by security police wide question. So that I may give the hon­ recently? In view of the obvious com­ ourable member a comprehensive reply, I munist propaganda springs behind this ask that he allow me a day or two to con­ activity, what does the Minister propose to sider the matter, and as soon as possible I do to protect loyal Australian school child­ shall inform him and the House of the exact ren against this poisonous brainwashing? position. Mr CUTLER: My only knowledge of the document mentioned by the honourable DAIRY INDUSTRY ADVISORY COUNCIL member is what I read in the press this morning. I have had no further reports of Mr DUNCAN: I address my question to it. There is nothing new about students the Minister for Agriculture. Has the Gov­ gathering together and producing some sort ernment established a Dairy Industry of student document. I do not believe in Advisory Council to examine the re­ complete suppression of a document of this commendations in the Chaffey dairy nature. It can best be dealt with by in­ report and the practicability of es­ dividual principals, who are responsible tablishing a single dairy authority to people, within their own schools. I did control the production and marketing of all read in the paper that it was intended to dairy products in New South Wales? Will use schools for the distribuion of this docu­ the Minister agree that if this commiHee ment, but this again I think is a matter is allowed to move along in a leisurely best dealt with by the principal in each fashion in making its report, the time taken case. It would be very difficult indeed for will breed discontent in the minds of all me as Minister to give a direction in rela­ people vitally interested in this proposed tion to each matter of this nature that arose. and desirable change? Will the Minister say I would like to leave the question of dis­ whether a deadline has been set for the tribution of Student Underground or of any other document of this type to the making of the report by the council and, if good sense of principals. it has not, will he take appropriate action to have the report made available without BEACH EROSION undue delay? Mr JENSEN: My question is directed to Mr CRAWFORD: It is true, as the hon­ the Minister for Local Government and ourable member for Lismore suggests, that Minister for Highways. Is the problem of the Government has appointed a Dairy beach erosion causing great concern, and Industry Advisory Council and that one has the Minister been requested to take action ·to prevent further erosion and to of its terms of reference is to con­ restore the beaches already affected? Does sider the advisability of establishing a the Minister consider that his present single dairy authority of New South powers are adequate for the handling of Wales, and, if it is advisable, the what I hope he will agree is a very serious method whereby the authority could be problem requiring urgent solution? If he brought into being. I have been rather Questions without Notice [10 SEPT., 1968] Questions without Notice 717 worried about the time factor in the bring­ has already been given for the restoration ing down of this report by the coun­ of an area at Rockdale, but I shall ask cil. The week before last Mr J. K. whether more assistance can be given. I Donaldson, the chairman of the council, unders·tand that the Rockdale Council is came to see me, and he, too, is somewhat trustee of the area: if the council likes to perturbed at the time 'the council is taking. get in touch with me, I shall make further It is not that the council itself can be approaches to the federal Government. The blamed for this. The council has asked Department of Lands may be able to give various associations and organiza:tions in­ the council some assistance. terested in this problem to make submis­ sions to it, but unfor,tunately many of the Mr BANNON: My point is that some pro­ bodies that have advised the council that tective measures should be taken to ensure they are making submissions have not yet that this will not occur again. done so. I have suggested -to Mr Donaldson that he either issue a press statement or Mr LEWIS: It is extremely difficult to write 'to the organizations informing them give an assurance that this sort of thing ·that a deadline will be fixed in the near cannot happen again. Wherever there is future for the making of the submissions to moving sand along our beach fronts, there the Dairy Industry Advisory Council. I am will be a danger of children burrowing into sure that the able men on this council will it, playing around in it and making tunnels. then be able to proceed with their exam­ A similar danger o£ten accompanies rutile ination of the submissions and, in the very mining and other operations on the beach near future, bring down the report. I fronts. We shall, as suggested by the hon­ realize, and I am sure that Mr Donaldson ourable member, do what we can to alle­ and all other members of the advisory coun­ viate the situation. cil agree, that if this inquiry drags on for an interminable length of time, any value HOME BUILDERS that could accrue from it would be lost. I assure the honourable member and the Mr BROWN: My question is directed to House that Mr Donaldson and his commit­ the Minister for Housing and Minister for tee will do all 'they can .to bring down the Co-operative Societies. Has his attention report at the earliest opportunity. been invited to an article in Construction of 3rd September concerning unscrupulous project home builders? Further, has his at­ BEACH FATALITY tention been invited to an article in the Mr BANNON: I ask the Minister for Sunday Telegraph of 7th September, which Lands whether he is aware of the tragic also dealt with the matter? Will the Min­ death of a boy on Lady Robinson's Beach, ister inform the House and home buyers Brighton, caused by a fall of sand and dirt generally what action can be taken to curb in an area which was once Cook Park. these undesirable activities and so protect Will the Minister consider calling the at­ the home-seeker who is endeavouring to ·tention of the federal Minister for Works provide a dwelling for his family? to the incident, with a view to seeking an inquiry to ascertain whether satisfactory Mr STEPHENS: My attention was in­ protective measures are being taken and vited to ·the editorial in Construction last what action will be taken to ensure that week and I was very interested to see in the there is no repetition of the incident? latest Sunday Telegraph the article which dealt with the editorial and made further Mr LEWIS: I think the whole House will comments. It is true that there is a small join with me in expressing sympathy with group-and I emphasize that it is very small the parents of the child whose death fol­ indeed-of unscrupulous project builders lowed an accident at Brighton Beach re­ who are fleecing people who order homes cently. I will, as the honourable member on plans and project houses that are being suggests, ask the federal Government if it exhibited. Some of these unscrupulous can give further assistance. Some assistance builders put up exhibition homes and claim 118 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice that they will build an identical home on publicity, about the needs of Griffith Hos­ land owned by the home-hungry public. The pital, including his reference ·to the fact home-seeker signs ,the contract and when that costly city undertakings could have an the home is built he finds that it is not adverse effect on many hospitals in country built in accordance with the specifications areas and in other parts of the State. As the in the type of home that he saw on question covers a number of points, some exhibition. There is no excuse for this sort a little less serious than others, I shall have of thing. The good project builder builds regard to them and supply the honourable ·true to plan and true to the exhibition home member with a considered answer. that he has shown. I am sure that the good project builders have contributed in no SCHOOL TELEPHONE ACCOUNTS small way to the record number of homes, 41,172, built in New South Wales for the Mr COATES: I direct my question with­ year ended last June. A small body of out notice to the Deputy Premier, Minister builders is causing considerable concern. To for Education and Minister for Science. Is the would-be home builder who is not too it true that for a long time I have been sure of the probity of the contractor, all I making submissions seeking the Govern­ can say is that he should take the contract ment's support to requests of the parents documents and specifications to a reputable and citizens associations in my electorate person who could go through •them very for the payment of school telephone carefully. I am sure that the lending insti­ charges? Did the Minister inform me re­ tutions could recommend such reputable ad­ cently in writing that the Government has visers. This is the only safeguard that I can decided .to meet telephone charges, but is suggest to the honourable member. it a fact that he did not detail the extent to which the Government is willing to go in this respect? Is the Minister in a posi­ HOSPITALS tion ·to supply the House and me with par­ Mr GRASSBY: I ask the Minister for ticulars that I should like to pass on to the Health whether recently he said that if parents and citizens association in my Sydney Hospital were improved, urgent im­ electorate? provements to Griffith District Hospital and other country hospitals could not be carried Mr CUTLER: For some considerable out. Did he suggest that the board at Grif­ time it has been Government policy to fith should influence me to oppose improve­ supply free telephones for public schools ments to Sydney Hospital? Will the Minister throughout New South Wales. Indeed it has reconcile his view that both Sydney and been my personal policy to press for it since Griffith hospitals cannot both have proper I entered Parliament about twenty-one years facilities with the statement made by the ago. I am delighted that at long last as Premier on 29th May, 1964, that Griffith Minister for Education I am able to im­ and district should have a modern hospital, plement on behalf of the Government the that the money would not be missed by the policy of free telephones for the State school Treasury and that the job could be done in system. In the implementation of the pro­ record time. Will the Minister ask the posed Budget, from 1st July last the cost Premier to find ·the money that he said was of all telephones at present installed in de­ easy to find four years ago, and so enable partmental schools, including approximately an urgent reconstruction job to be com­ 660 third and fourth class schools, will be pleted? If an alternative that the Minister met by ·the Government. Telephones will be is considering is the transfer of Sydney progressively installed in other third and Hospital to Griffith, will he accept my assur­ fourth class schools that do not now have a direct connection to the telephone system. ance that we have the space to accommo­ It is expected that about 200 telephones will date it? be installed every year. The restriction on Mr JAGO: I recall commenting on a installation is not being imposed by this statement by the honourable member for Government and is not related to the short­ 'Murrumbidgee which recently ·received wide age of finance, but rather, I feel, will be Questions Without Notice [10 SEPT., 1968] Crime 719 brought about by the inability of the Post­ Some fairly large schools have no fewer master-General's Department to install any than ten telephones connected through a more than about 200 telephones a year in switchboard. The department, before it the remaining third and fourth class schools takes over full responsibility for the tele­ in this State. phones, will have to be satisfied that the number installed at the school is necessary. The department will accept responsibility The acceptance of this policy will tremen­ for all school telephone accounts due and dously relieve parents and citizens associa­ payable after 1st July of this year. The tions over the next few years. Parents and only exception to this rule will be in respect citizens associations and mothers clubs have of telephones installed for the personal use been concerned that to pay telephone ac­ of teachers in some of the smaller schools. counts they have had to use money raised At this stage I exclude also telephones in­ by various means. The Government agrees stalled in many school canteens that are with their concern and that is why the run as business undertakings. It is only policy has been implemented. The most fair that the telephone bills of' those can­ pleasing feature to me and to those who teens should be charged against the business represent country electorates in New South If undertaking. it can be established to me Wales is that as a matter of policy tele­ that the department should pay the tele­ phone account for a canteen conducted by phones will be installed in the small iso­ the parents and citizens association for the lated country schools. The system will be benefit of the school, and not being run as acceptable to mothers clubs, parents and a business undertaking, I shall certainly citizens associations, and all members of give favourable consideration to the pay­ the House. ment of the account. Following the pro­ cessing of the first accounts ,to reach the department from 1st July last, arrange­ ments will be made for future telephone accounts to be forwarded to the depart­ ment so that it may make direct payments CRIME to the Postmaster-General's Department. URGENCY Naturally it will be necessary also to Mr HILLS (Phillip), Leader of the establish some standards as to the number Opposition [2.52]: I move: of telephones that might be installed in a That it is a matter of urgent necessity that particular type of school. For example in this House should forthwith consider the fol­ a fourth class school which has no attached lowing motion, viz.: residence it is reasonable that a telephone ( 1) That this House calls upon the Govern­ should be connected to the school ; but if a ment to take immediate action to eradi­ fourth class school has an attached resi­ cate organized crime in New South dence it would be reasonable to say that Wales. a telephone should be installed in the school (2) That, as an essential element of this action, a Joint Committee be appointed with perhaps an extension to the residence. to inquire into and report upon all It will be installed on this basis. In the aspects and incidence of organized bigger schools where for example the in­ crime in this State. fants school might be on an isolated site, ( 3) That such Committee consist of six it is reasonable to say that there should Members of the Legislative Assembly and four Members of the Legislative be two telephones or at least a telephone Council. and an extension to cater for the two ( 4) That Mr McCaw, Mr Maddison, Mr schools. In the case of high schools or big Punch, Mr Sheahan, Mr Mannix and the Mover be appointed to serve on such primary schools it could be necessary to Committee as Members of the Legisla­ install a number of telephones. This will tive Assembly. have to be a matter for investigation by (5) That the Committee have leave to sit during the sittings or any adjournment the department and for the setting up of a of either or both Houses and to make standard. visits of inspection. - 720 Crime {ASSEMBLY] Crime The matter is urgent because there is al­ in our State have had on the morale of our most daily evidence of an increase in law enforcement officers. It is unnecessary organized crime in New South Wales, in­ for me to repeat aspects of the Mellish cluding at least four recent underworld affair which led to the undermining of con­ murders, and because of repeated organized fidence in our law enforcement provisions, criminal acts, including murder, stand-over particularly among the police force. It is activities, assault, prostitution, drug traffick­ unnecessary for me to remind the House ing, illegal gambling, bribery and large­ that confidence in our law and order en­ scale thefts. The matter is urgent because forcement bodies, the police particularly, of the critical comments of Judge Cross is one of the essential ingredients of the recently concerning the parts played by two democratic way of .Jife as we understand it. policemen in a recent drug prosecution A joint committee of both Houses of Par­ against Mr Biu Kuen Ng of Brookvale. liament must completely review the maHers Further, the matter is urgent because of I have raised this afternon. I am sure mem­ the widespread effects that these crimes bers will agree that the honourable mem­ have upon the life of the community-in bers I have proposed in my motion-- the danger to lives of innocent bystanders and the heavy increase in rates for insur­ Mr McCAW: On a point of order. I take ance of property. The matter is urgent, the point that the honourable gentleman too, because of the frustration of the has now departed from 'the question of ur­ majority of police officers in their honest gency and is debating something that will attempts to stamp out organized crime. It be relevant to the substantive motion, if he is urgent because of the concern of detec­ is given the opportunity by the House to tives that the organized criminal element move it. is enjoying immunity from prosecution. The obvious implications raised by these allega­ Mr SPEAKER: Order! I think there may tions of protection from prosecution make be some substance in ,the point of order. the matter urgent. The honourable member will appreciate that he must confine himself to urgency. The matter is urgent because of the failure of the Government to take active Mr HILLS: The matter is urgent be­ practical steps to eradicate organized crime. cause I want the House to give considera­ The matter is urgent because of the need tion to the appointment of a joint commit­ for strong, remedial action even before the tee of both Houses of Parliament in pre­ findings of the proposed joint committee ference to a Royal commission. The matter into the organization of crime are known. is urgent because I feel it is opportune to­ The matter is urgent because Keith Joseph day, in view of public concern about the Hahn, who first reported the whereabouts matters I have already mentioned, to dis­ of the stolen Gbeysens paintings, is being cuss it. The House will have a suitable sought not only by the police but also by opportunity this afternoon, during ~the time criminal elements who be alleges are seeking set aside for private members' motions, to to murder him. The matter is urgent be­ debate the issues I have raised. I appre­ cause of the statement by the Commissioner ciate that another private member's motion of Police in his report ,to the Premier on on the paper for this afternoon deals with the Gheysens paintings case that it was one 'the important matter of relationships be­ of the most complex cases he had ever tween the Commonwealth and the State. dealt with by reason not only of the many However, I submit that the matter I have matters relating to misconduct by the three raised is of sufficient urgency to be debated members of the CIB but also of suspected today. There are 3t hours available this criminal action by a number of persons. afternoon for private business. This matter It is unnecessary for me to intimate to is of grave importance to the people of this the House the need for urgent considera- State, and my motion of urgency is sup­ tion of matters of law and order in this ported by the fact that newspapers have State of ours. It is unnecessary for me to reported their concern at the increase in emphasize the effects that recent happenings organized crime in New South Wales. Also, Mr Hills] Crime [10 SEPT., 1968] Crime 721 •the public at large is gravely concerned which notice was given the best part of about our law enforcement provisions. a fortnight ago-that is of considerable Therefore, it is essential that consideration importance to the Government and the be given to my motion for the setting up of State of New South Wales. We want to a joint select committee. get it launched. Mr ASKIN ( Collaroy), Premier and Before telling the Leader of the Opposi­ Treasurer [3.0]: The Government does not tion what I have in mind I must point out wish to stifle debate on this subject by hav­ that, as promised, I propose at the end of ing it determined immediately on the ques­ question time to lay on the table some of tion of urgency. This is, of course, •the first the papers in the Gheysens matter. I we have heard of it although we knew emphasize that, whether urgency is granted that something was coming along. I intend or not, there is no reason whatever so far to make some suggestions to the Leader as I am concerned for holding this up. We of the Opposition, and I must point out want to get to the bottom of it just as that we question the procedure that is pro­ quickly as the Opposition does, but the posed. The Leader of the Opposition, in Commissioner of Police has advised that, support of his motion for urgency, said if the full report is tabled, it will mean that there had been an increase in serious that his investigations with a view to laying crime. However, the statistics that would serious charges will ·be hampered ; and that, be brought forward in any debate on this secondly, there is a risk that people will be subject would not support this contention. prejudiced in the subsequent trials. This In the Government's first three years of view is supported by the Attorney-General, office we have put on one thousand extra after consulting the Crown law officers. As police to help in controlling crime ; we have a layman, I must be guided by that advice. also made a record allocation of funds for We want to get to the bottom of this as vehicles, modern equipment, and so on, to quickly as possible. We regret that there help check crime ; and we have increased has been some delay, but we think it would penalties for serious crime. be better, in considering this motion, to adopt the attitude that it is more important Dealing now with whether the motion for the Commissioner of Police to get to should be dealt with by way of urgency the bottom of the matter and to get enough today, I think it is fair to point out that evidence to sheet home the guilt-if there the House has just completed the Address­ be any guilt. We believe that it would be in-Reply debate that ran into the fourth better to do that than to act before he is week, in which thirty-eight members par­ ready, thereby running the risk of people ticipated. It is significant that the Leader escaping charges and staying in the force. of the Opposition-who has, like myself, We do not want that kind of thing, and I unlimited time in debate-said nothing am sure that no one on the Opposition side about these things then. wants it. Mr HILLS: Oh, yes. Today we are most anxious to get on with the debate dealing with Common­ Mr ASKIN: No. I heard the debate, wealth-State financial arrangements. An­ either here or over the loud speaker in my other matter that I would like the Leader room, just as the Leader of the Opposition of the Opposition to consider when he is is able to hear debates in his room. The moving his motion again is to take into Leader of the Opposition will concede that account that he has proposed that two Min­ he did not bother to move an amendment isters serve on the committee he has men­ to the Address-in,Reply motion, or seek to tioned ; that is to say, the Attorney-General have a division on the motion to terminate and the Minister of Justice. The Govern­ the debate. I mention these things only ment believes that two Ministers should not to point out that we do not see the need be required ; indeed, it cannot let two Min­ for urgency today-and I emphasize today. isters go. Subject to that being straightened As the Leader of the Opposition said, we out-if the Leader of the Opposition is have on the business paper a motion-of willing to have a chat with me afterwards, 46 <

722 Crime [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice I have a suggestion to make in that re­ The New South Wales Government be­ spect-we are willing to allow a debate lieves that the grants are being terminated as a matter of urgency tomorrow, so that too quickly. I made representations to the the debate this afternoon on Common­ Prime Minister, urging that the grants be wealth-State finances will not be interfered tapered off and that they should not close with. Commonwealth-State finances affect until 31st December, 1968. However, ;the all of us. If the Leader of the Opposition Commonwealth has decided that 30th Sep­ cares to move this motion tomorrow, in tember is to be the finishing time. As I the same form or in similar form, the Gov­ think everybody knows, New South Wales ernment will grant urgency and will per­ is not able to finance this relief itself, and mit the debate. in any event unemployment is fundament­ ally a Commonwealth matter. I do not Mr HILLS (Philip), Leader of the Op­ think the fact that the bulk of the State position {3.5]: On the undertaking by the has got over the drought is sufficient reason Premier that he will agree to urgency to­ to terminate the whole scheme. The Monaro morrow, I ask leave to withdraw the motion. district, a large and important one, and a Motion, by leave, withdrawn. key producing area in the State, is one of those still experiencing the drought disaster. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE Although the honourable gentleman does (Resumed) not know this, Cabinet discussed the matter this morning. While on ·the one hand we DROUGHT UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF are grateful for the assistance given, we Mr MAUGER: I ask the Premier whe­ think that it has been .terminated prema­ ther it is a fact that the Commonwealth turely. Cabinet decided that the Minister drought unemployment relief to councils for Local Government and Minister for ceases on 30th September. Is it a fact, also, Highways, and the Minister for Agricu1ture, that the Monaro district is experiencing the should wait on the federal Treasurer at the worst drought ever and that if the Com­ earliest possible date, again to seek an ex­ monwealth grant ceases on 30th September, tension of this scheme at least until the end there will be disastrous effects throughout of the year. Honourable members may be the Monaro electorate? Will the Premier sure that in advancing the case emphasis make urgent representations to the Prime will be put on the disaster visited upon the Minister to have the unemployment relief honourable gentleman's electorate and upon grants extended to 30th November, 1968? the other areas affected. Mr ASKIN: It is quite true, as the hon­ ourable gentleman states in his question, WALLSEND DISTRICf HOSPITAL that the Monaro district is going through Mr BOOm: My question without notice probably the worst drought in its history. is directed to the Ministe·r for Health. Has The same can be said about surrounding the Minister seen the article on the front areas on the South Coast, like Unanderra, -page of the Newcastle Morning Herald of about the Cobar district, and about Inverell 3rd September, 1968, headed "Doctors and other parts of the State. However, the claim hospital bed shortage for seriously question relates particularly to the electorate ill"? On Hth October, 1965, during a of Monaro. It is true, also, that the Com­ monwealth has said that drought unemploy­ visit by the Minister to the Wallsend District ment relief grants will cease on 30th Sep­ Hospital, did he say: "I realize now that tember. I want to make it quite clear that one would ·have to be quite blind not to my Government is grateful to the Common­ recognize the hospital's needs, both present wealth for the generous assistance it has and future. No other !hospital in the State given for drought relief. Substantial Com­ would have a better claim for improve­ monwealth grants have helped to prevent what would have been. a chaotic position ments than Wallsend"? Have plans ·and during the drought, which is still continu­ specifications been available since 1965 ing in parts of the State. for increased beds and other services? Can Questions without Notice [10 SEPT., 1968] Questions without Notice 723 the Minister inform the House when this State. I assure the honourable member urgently required accommodation is likely that the needs of Wallsend will not be over­ to be provided? looked and work on the Wallsend hospital will be proceeded with as soon as we are Mr JAGO: The quotation that the hon­ able to do so. ourable member for Wallsend includes in his question sounds accurate, from what I can .recall of my impressions in 1965 COUNTRY HOUSING of the Wallsend hospital, :held up at one Mr CROSS: Is the Minister for Housing end with rusty galvanized iron, having a able to say whether the number of homes ~ot of old weatheTboard buildings still being buiJt by the Housing Commission functional as part of the hospital, and de­ in country centres now is in excess of the faced by the awful excrescence of a fibro number being built by private builders? attachment to the fourth floor which is a relic of emergency provisions made in the Mr STEPHENS: I could not say ac­ war days. However, at that time, and curately whether or not the Housing Com­ on subsequent visits to the hospital for mission is constructing in country areas the opening of the nurses' training school more homes than private enterprise. The and other matters, I had no hesitation Housing Commission's programme in about the prior claims of Belmont. It is country areas has accelerated considerably only comparatively recently that substan­ and has reduced the lengthy waiting time tial expenditure, in eXJcess of $2,000,000, country people had to suffer under the on the Belmont Hospital has been com­ Labor Party administration. The Govern­ pleted. The works at Wallsend are neces­ ment is gradually catching up with the sary, but they must be considered together leeway and we are giving satisfaction to with the similar needs of many other people in many areas of the State. I will hospitals. take this opportunity to ascertain the ·con­ I did see the article of 3rd September struction rate of homes in country districts in the Newcastle Morning Herald, in­ by private enterprise and by the Housing cluding the statements by Dr Yates, the Commission. I can say that it is not the medical superintendent of Wallsend, and general policy of builders, either in Sydney Dr Cur·row, the medical superintendent of or country areas, to build cottages for rental. the Royal Newcastle Hospital. It is my It is virtually the Housing Commission alone opinion that the Newcastle district is in a which builds houses for rental throughout much better situation over all, as far as our community. hospital services are concerned, than any other part of New South Wales. Notwith­ KEGWORTH PRIMARY SCHOOL standing t:his, I acknowledge the honour­ Mr DEGEN: I ask the Deputy Premier, able member's very keen interest in the Minister for Education and Minister for development of the Wallsend hospital and Science whether he is aware of the large I have no hesitation in accepting the fact increase in enrolment at the Kegworth that it is long overdue for completion, P·rimary School, Leichhardt. Does the which would make it a much more func­ Minister recall that on 9th May t:his year tiona:l and satisfactory hospital to meet I informed him that a large proportion of the needs of the district it serves. this school would be effected by ·a road­ May I commend the many people of widening proposal for a county road? Is the Newcastle district who give service to the Minister now in a position to inform their hospitals. I refer particularly to Kurri the House of the plans of the Department Kurri and Cessnock. Recently in Kurri of Education for this school or of the Kurri a substantial amount was raised department's plans for a comparable primary from Jocal sources to provide a children's school in the immediate vicinity? ward at the hospital. In fact, the hos­ Mr CUTLER: From memory, I think it pitals of the Newcastle district set a very is true that the honourable gentleman made good example to other hospitals in our representations to me earlier this year in ,

724 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice

relation to this matter. I have not received make submissions to the Dairy Industry Ad­ a report on the matter within the last few visory CounciL I am assured that the Milk weeks, but this afternoon I will check up Zone Dairymen's Union, the Milk Board, tlhe and tomorrow will advise the honourable Primary Producers Union and various other gentleman and the House of the exact bodies such as vendors and milk processors position. are making submissions to the council. I am confident that out of those submissions the DAIRY INDUSTRY Dairy Industry Advisory Council, which comprises some of the most able men in the Mr CHAFFEY: I ask the Minister for dairy industry, will be able to suggest solu­ Agriculture a question without notice. Is it tions to the dairying problems of our State. a fact that, from replies given to questions and attitudes taken by others, neither the I do not think it is my duty or responsi­ Minister nor the Government has a firm bility to tell the members of the Dairy policy regarding the future of our dairy in­ Advisory Council what their recommenda­ dustry? Is it a fact, also, that the Govern­ tions should be. As I said in reply to an ment is relying upon advice given to it by earlier question, I have discussed this matter a recently appointed advisory council? In with Mr Donaldson, the chairman of the the event of the advisory council recom­ council. He concedes the need for a report mending the concept of a single dairy to be made within a reasonable time, but I authority for New South Wales, will the think all honourable members who know Minister give an assurance that this recom­ anything about the dairy industry would mendation will be implemented without de­ realize that there are very complex prob­ lay? On the other hand, if the advice lems to be investigated. It is impossible is to the contrary will the Minister still to arrive at a plan for the future of dairying give an assurance that he will advocate in New South Wales in five minutes. I am the concept of a single dairy authority for confident that when this report i_s received the benefit of the Government and the pub­ it will be soundly based, and I am sure that lic to cover all the complexities of the dairy the Government will take appropriate action industry from the udder to the breakfast to put the dairy industry in New South table? Wales on the soundest footing ever. Mr CRAWFORD: In reply to the hon­ ourable member for Tamworth, I can say BICENTENARY CELEBRATIONS quite specifically that the Government has a Mr ASKIN: On 27th August the honour­ definite dairy policy. However, the Govern­ able member for Maroubra asked me a ment having appointed a Dairy Industry Ad­ question without notice in relation to the visory Council with very wide terms of refer­ purchase from the Commonwealth of an · ence, one of which is the advisability of setting up a single dairy authority for New area of about 60 acres at Congwong Bay, La South Wales, it is not possible at this stage Perouse. The area referred to by the hon­ for me to say what the Government will do. ourable member is one of several parcels Whether the council will make a recom­ of surplus Commonwealth land which the mendation for a single authority remains State has been negotiating to acquire for to be seen. Another term of reference is recreation purposes for some time. I am that if it is decided there should be a single pleased to inform the honourable member dairy authority, how is it to be phased into the present setup. It is general knowledge that agreement was recently reached on the that the last Country Party conference car­ values of the areas •to be acquired and that ried a resolution that the policy of tlle action in connection with the actual transfer Country Party is that there should be a of ·the land to the State will be completed single dairy authority in New South Wales. as early as practicable. As I have just men­ I have refrained from giving the Dairy In­ tioned, when tmnsferred, !!he land at La dustry Advisory Council any of my views on Perouse will be used for recreation pur­ this matter. I feel the industry itself should poses. Questions without Notice [10 SEPT., 1968] Questions without Notice 725 REVESBY: COMPENSATION FOR made to these two home-owners in respect PROPERTY DAMAGE of the costs they have claimed. With re­ Mr ASKIN: On 22nd August the hon­ gard to the third claim, the commissioner ourable member for East Hills addressed a indicated that these premises were not used question without notice to me relating to by police in connection with their efforts to compensation for private property damaged effect the arrest and it is considered that at Revesby in connection with an arrest by any claim in the matter should be made to police on 28th July, 1968. As honourable the insurance company concerned. members will be aware, on 27th July a woman was shot dead at Revesby and a EMPLOYMENT OF FEMALES man subsequently forced his wife and their Mr ASKIN: On 29th August the hon­ child into a house to resist arrest by the ourable member for Corrimal addressed a police. This man barricaded himself in the question without notice to me regarding the premises and during the following twenty­ setting up of a fund, foreshadowed before four hours fired many shots from rifles at the last State elections, to provide loans for police, police cars and neighbouring dwell­ the establishment of predominantly female ings before being arrested and charged with employing industries within the City of murder. From newspaper reports it would Greater Wollongong. At this stage, it is appear that the insurance companies cover­ not possible to indicate the total amount of ing the dwelling in which ·the man took re­ money to be allocated to the special fund fuge, though not legally liable in terms of but finance from the fund will be provided their contracts, have agreed to make ex­ appropriately •to meet reasonable requests gratia payments to the owner to meet the for assistance. The Government will treat costs of repairs to the residence. This is each application on its merits, the major most commendable. factor influencing the granting of assistance In regard to damage •to neighbouring pro­ being the contribution made by an industry perties, the Commissioner of Police has in­ towards the increased employment of formed me that claims have been made on women and girls in the Wollongong area. his department by the owners of three My colleague the Minister for Decen­ neighbouring properties, none of whom have tralisation and Development, with whom I approached their insurance companies in have conferred on this matter, has in­ the matter. I might mention, however, that formed me that officers of his department the Commissioner of Police was present have already had discussions with repre­ during the siege and has informed me of the sentatives of a number of concerns, some valuable assistance and co-operation ren­ with oversea affiliations, concerning com­ dered to the police by two families whose mencement of operations in the lllawarra residences were used by police as bases in district. As a result, several favourable their operations to effect the arrest. There manufacturing prospects have emerged. It is no doubt in the commissioner's mind that is expected that with •these and other devel­ the offender was aware of the presence of opments coming to fruition, additional jobs police in these two dwellings and that this for female labour will be created in the was a contributing factor to the extent of foreseeable future in the Wollongong area, the damage caused to them by rifle fire. As thus making a substantial impact on the a general principle, neither the Police De­ present level of unemployment in the partment nor the Government is liable to locality. compensate private individuals for damage caused to their property by criminals in REWARD PAID FOR RECOVERY OF their activities or in their endeavours to STOLEN PAINTINGS avoid arrest, and ordinarily such claims for Mr ASKIN: On 8th August the hon­ compensation are not entertained. However, ourable member for Auburn asked me a in the circumstances that I have mentioned, question without notice in regard to a re­ I have approved a recommendation by ·the ward allegedly paid for the recovery of commissioner that ex-gratia payments be paintings stolen from Mr Gheysens. In my ,

726 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLYj Sessional Orders reply I indicated that I was awaiting a re­ I table the report dated 30th August by port on •this matter from the Commissioner the Commissioner of Police on this matter. of Police and that I had asked him to ex­ pedite its submission. Following a further question without notice asked by the hon­ ourable member on 27th August, I stated that I had again asked the commissioner about the report, emphasizing urgency, and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL that he had promised definitely to let me RETURN OF WRlT have it that week. The Commissioner of Police did let me have his report that week Mr Askin laid upon the table the follow­ --on 30th August----,and on receiving it I ing papers: referred it immediately to the Attorney­ (a) Copy of Returning Officer's Certificate General. In view of the serious statements under the Constitution (Legislative Council Elections) Act, 1932, as amended, respecting the made in the report the Attorney-General election of Bernard Blomfield Riley as a Mem­ was specifically asked to consider whether ber of the Legislative Council. there was any objection to its release by me (b) Copy of supplement to the Government to the press or to its being tabled in Par­ Gazette containing a copy of the abovemen­ liament. His advice was that there was no tioned Certificate. legal objection to my taking either course and therefore, as Parliament was not sitting PUBLIC TRUSTEE last week, I took the first opportunity of making it public by releasing it to the press Report, together with statement of re­ on 4th September. ceipts and payments, for year ended 30th June, 1968, ·tabled and, on motion by Mr The Attorney-General supports the view McCaw, ordered to be printed. taken by the commrssroner that the voluminous police file referred to in the report should not be tabled or its contents BURSARY ENDOWMENT released. The Attorney-General has advised (AMENDMENT) BILL this on the ground given by the commis­ Motions (by Mr Cutler) agreed to: sioner that disclosure of information already That Order of the Day No. 2 for the second obtained by police would seriously prejudice reading of this bill be discharged. the completion of the investigations. The That the bill be withdrawn. commissioner has claimed in his report that this information is vital to the successful result of police inquiries. A second ground SESSIONAL ORDERS on which the Attorney-General has so ad­ BUSINESS DAYS: HOURS OF SITTING-PRECEDENCE vised is that disclosure of the contents of the OF BUSINESS official police file at this stage could pre­ judice the fair trial of any person or persons Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for arrested and charged. He has further ad­ Labour and Industry, Chief Secretary and vised me that as these two grounds preclude Minister for Tourism [3.28]: I move: the tabling of the main police file, he has That during the remainder of the present Session, unless otherwise ordered: not found it necessary to consider any other ( 1) This House shall meet for the despatch ground. The Government is most anxious of business at 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday and for this whole matter to be cleared up Wednesday, and at 11.00 am. on Thurs­ day in each week. quickly. However, as can be seen from the (2) General Business shall take precedence commissioner's report to me, a copy of of Government Business on Tuesdays which I propose to table, these investiga­ until 6 p.m; and after that hour and on Wednesdays and Thursdays, Govern­ tions are extensive and complex and raise ment Business shall take precedence of very serious matters which must be ex­ General Business. Notices of Motions amined thoroughly before action can be and Orders of the Day of General Business shall take precedence on each taken by him. alternate Tuesday. Mr Askin] Sessional Orders [10 SEPT., 1968] Sessional Orders 727 (3) Upon the expiration of ten minutes properly. Many of us have to prepare the after the motion for the adjournment of the House has been made, Mr next day's work and many of us might have Speaker shall adjourn the House, with­ to see constituents after the day's sitting out Question put. concludes, or early in the morning. The Chief Secretary gave no explanation. Mr EINFELD (Bondi) [3.29]: The Op­ He did not say that there were special position takes strong exception to this reasons for the terms of this motion, and motion, for a number of reasons. The that he craved the attention of the House normal precedent in the House is that when, to explain to members that unless something early in a session, sessional orders are urgent came up they might take it for moved they provide for the adjournment of granted that Parliament would finish at the House at a specified time. If this 10.30 p.m. and they would be able to go motion were in the normal form it would home. The Chief Secretary did not pay provide that the House would not sit later us that courtesy. He made no effort to than 10.30 p.m. on Tuesdays and Wednes­ explain the reasons for ·the motion. We are days, and that it would not sit later than bitterly opposed to this sort of presentation, 4.30 p.m. on Thursdays, and that ten which only perpetuates the contemptuous minutes before those times the motion for attitude that the Chief Secretary and the the adjournment of the House would be members of the Government adopt towards moved. It is very pointed that this motion members on this side of the House, to the does not contain those provisions. Parliament, to the employees of the Par­ The Opposition is prepared to sit at all liament and, indeed, to the citizens of New hours of the night and to any hour in the South Wales. It is all part of the pattern morning when important legislation is to of the Premier's statement about running come before the House. Members of the over the b's in the street. It is all part Opposition are willing to sit for any length of the same contempt which members of of time to discuss important and urgent the Government display because they have legislation that will be for the welfare of the a majority-a majority which they will lose people of New South Wales. Such legisla­ at the next election if they keep this up and tion occupies the attention of every mem­ treat everyone with contempt. ber. It is very pointed that the Chief Members of Parliament-even members Secretary did not discuss this matter with on the Government side, weak as they are­ me. We could have consulted and he could ought to realize that members' rights are have explained that there were special gradually being whittled away. These days, reasons for his not wanting to include in a member has little right to raise matters the motion the provision to which I have of importance. How does a member of referred. Doubtless, if the Chief Secre­ Parliament get an opportunity to raise such tary's reasons were genuine and acceptable, matters? What is happening today is this: the Opposition would have accepted them. unless a member of Parliament rises on a However, the Chief Secretary did not pay matter of urgency, or is able to convince me, on .behalf of the Opposition, the cour­ you, Mr Speaker, that he should be per­ tesy and has given notice of this motion mitted to initiate a discussion on a Standing which shows no closing time. Order 49 adjournment motion--

Members of Parliament are human, as Mr SPEAKER: I am very easily con­ are the clerks of the House, and as you vinced. are yourself, Mr Speaker, as well as every other officer of Parliament and every em­ Mr EINFELD: I am the first to say that ployee. It is nice to be able to say in the you are a most indulgent Speaker in these morning that unless something urgent crops matters, that your guidance is most valu­ up Parliament will finish at 10.30 p.m. able, and that your advice and assistance Most of us have other duties to perform are very helpful. My point is that there when Parliament finishes for the night. Most are only three methods by which a member of us are diligent and anxious to accept of Parliament can raise a matter in which responsibility and to perform our duties he has a special interest. He may move an 728 Sessional Orders [ASSEMBLY] Sessional Orders ur.~ency motion, in which event he gets ten not publicly tell members of Parliament the mmutes to speak. If the Premier grants reasons for this departure from what can urgency the member may go on with the be said to be normal practice. debate. The Premier rarely grants urgency, but today the Leader of the Opposition We lodge our protest and maintain that found the Premier's Achilles heel, and he this is not the right way for members of agreed to grant urgency tomorrow. A mem­ Parliament to be treated. It is our belief, ber of Parliament can go to you, Mr firmly and strongly held, that we ought to Speaker, half an hour before Parliament be consulted in these matters because we is •to start its business for the day. He have a common interest. It could not be may say ·to you that an urgent matter has said that I have any common interest with suddenly arisen and, under Standing Order the honourable member for Kirribilli, but 49, you may give him permission to move a we on this side have a common interest motion for the adjournment of th'e House. with most members, those who are reason­ The only other way in which a member of able, intelligent and logical. Apparently we cannot find an area or avenue of com­ Parl~ament may bring up a matter is on the motion for the adjournment of the House mon interest with the Chief Secretary, who ten minutes before the end of the sitting believes this motion to be logical. I con­ day, and even then the matter that he raises tent myself by firmly lodging this protest must not lead to debate and mostly can be against the motion itself and at the manner a matter of local concern only. The Gov­ in which the Chief Secretary introduced it. ernment ought to make provision for a grievance day. Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for Labour and Industry, Chief Secretary, and Mr WADDY: On a point of order. Minister for Tourism ]3.48], in reply: The Deputy Leader of the Opposition rose, Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable thumped the table, and told us be was gentleman is departing from the terms of bitterly opposed to this motion, and that the the motion. Opposition thought the Government and I Mr EINFELD: When anyone speaks up were treating Parliament with contempt. for freedom and liberty, the honourable After he had treated himself to the pleasure member for Kirribilli shrinks. I know he of his own voice for about ten or fifteen does. He does not mind if the Chief minutes he revealed his tme feelings by Secretary shows contempt for Parliament laughing at himself. as he is doing in this very motion. Th~ honourable member 'for Kirribilli is the Mr ErNFIELD: I was laughing at you. type. He should be called Silly Billy not Mr WILLIS: The Deputy Leader of the the member for Kirribilli. When this sort Opposition realized what a spectacle he of motion is introduced by the Chief Sec­ ha~ made ~f himself. If getting up and retary and he does not tell us at what time savmg the time of the House by moving a the House will finish, every member who is formal motion in a formal way is exhibit­ not in the Chief Secretary's confidence suf­ ing contempt for the House, then all I can fers serious disadvantage. Every member say is that this form of contempt bas been of Parliament comes in here to discuss practised by govemments since long before matters of serious or vital importance to I can remember. Matters such as the one the people of New South Wales matters we are debating at the moment are all which could vitally affect yet we everyon~, purely formal. Ever since I have been are not told when we can finish our job. in the House they have been submitted by We protest vigorously, first, on the ground governments, accepted by oppositions and that if there is a necessity to introduce a put through without debate at all. The sessional order of this type, the Chief Sec­ retary. did not consult with me, the repre­ new Deputy Leader of the Opposition, so sentative of members of the Opposition inflated with his own importance and so which would have been the normal proce: entranced by the dulcet tones of his own dure ; second, on the ground tJhat he did voice, seizes an opportunity to get up so Sessional Orders [10 SEPT., 1968] Sessional Orders 729 that he may listen to his favourite poli­ The only reason why a closing time bas tician making another speech. The only not been included in the motion is be­ thing I can say is that had he not ,been so cause the Government has come to ·the carried away by his own eloquence, in­ conclusion, following an experiment with stead of wasting ten or fifteen minutes of this form of sessional order during the the time of the House in the tirade to which last, short session of Parliament earlier we have just listened, he could have saved this year, that it is more flexible not to the time of all of us by simply asking me have a definite closing time. Various privately why this particular motion was honourable members who were asked to to be presented. express their opinion on this matter did not raise any objection to it. Indeed they con­ Mr EINFELD: You should have told me. curred with a view expressed by me that a fixed closure of 10.30 p.m. on Tuesdays Mr WILLIS: For a number of years, I and Wednesdays and 4.30 p.m. on Thurs­ think five or six altogether, when I was days is likely to have the effect of dis­ Deputy Leader of the Opposition I do not organizing debate on oe<:asions and it ever recall the Leader of the House, who would be better to permit a member who is now the Leader of the Opposition, tell­ is in the middle of a speech to finish it ing me in advance what he intended to do. either a little before or a little after the I had to approach him when I wanted to find out anything. If the Deputy Leader usual closing time. of the Opposition wants me to confer with Lest any Opposition member should him before I or the Premier make any decisions, I am afraid he will be horribly fear that this motion will be a means disappointed. However, if he cares to whereby he will be ..!;::/of the House, and House to seek information, I shall be only a~lso the Goverwnent's intention generally, too glad to explain why certain things are proposed. is for the House to finish at app·roximately the same time as it has in the past on I repeat that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition took up ten or fifteen minutes Tuesday and Wednesday nights and on of everybody's time to find out what he Thursday afternoons. This practice will could have discovered in a few seconds permit a little extra flexibility and it will had he gone to the simple troubJe of asking obviate the interruption, when the clock me. However, one thing has come out of reaches a certain point, of the flights of it all, that the Opposition is willing to work oratory like that we have heard this after­ diligently in the interests of the community noon from the Deputy Leader of the Op­ in this House. I am indeed pleased that Opposition members do not object to be­ position. I am sure that it will be much bet­ ing required to sit a little beyond 10.30 p.m. ter when the Deputy Leader of the Opposi­ When the honourable member for Bondi tion in particular is speaking for honourable began I gained the impression that he and members to have the benefit of his oratory his ,colleagues were complaining that the right through the evening without the need Government might expect them to work a little later each night than has been the to chop him off and wait perhaps until the following week to hear the remainder practice hitherto. Let me resolve the matter quite olearly and set at rest the of his eloquence. natural suspicions that arise in the hon­ I assure the Deputy Leader of the Op­ ourable member's mind. Though he has position that the Government ·has no inten­ accused me of discourtesy in not inform­ tion of sitting any later than has been the ing him about this matter, I shall be practice, and the purpose of the motion is pleased to do so now. merely to give a little more flexibility than 730 Sessional Orders [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations

.has been available hitherto. If the Gov­ ,PRINTING ernment intends to sit late on any occa­ Motion (by Mr Willis on behalf of Mr sion for a particular purpose, I shall make Askin) agreed to: a point of conferring with the honourable ( 1) That the Printing Committee for the member beforehand. Even if I do not present Session consist of Mr Coleman, Mr Doyle, Mr Healey, Mr Brewer, Mr Osborne, seek his prior approval at least I shall give Mr Jackson, Mr L. B. Kelly, Mr Sloss, Mr him appropriate warning of proposed action. Stewart, and the Mover, to whom are hereby referred all Papers (except such as the Stand­ Motion agreed to. ing Orders or the House direct shall be printed) which may be laid upon the Table of the House. It shall be the duty of such Committee to report from time to time which of the SESSIONAL COMMITIEES Papers referred to them ought, in their opinion, to be printed, and whether in full or in abstract; STANDING ORDERS and it shall be in the power of the Committee Motion (by Mr WiUis) agreed to: to order such Papers, or abstracts thereof, to be prepared for press by the Clerk in attend­ ( 1) That the Standing Orders Committee ance upon such Committee, and such Papers for the present Session consist of Mr Speaker, or abstracts shall be printed unless the House Mr McCaw, Mr Maddison, Mr Hunter, Mr otherwise order. Punch, Mr Einfeld, Mr Mahoney, Mr Mannix, (2) That the Clerk of the House shall cause Mr Southee, and the Mover, with leave to to be printed, as a matter of course, all reports report on any matter or thing referred to or from the Printing Committee. pending before the said Committee, and to confer upon subjects of mutual concernment (3) That the Committee have leave to sit with any Committee appointed for similar during the sittings of the House. purposes by the Legislative Council, and that Mr Speaker be empowered to convene meetings of the Committee. COMMONWEALTH-STATE FINANCIAL (2) That the Committee have leave to sit RELATIONS during the sittings of the House. Mr PUNCH (Gloucester) [4.46]: I move: LIBRARY That this House: Motion (by Mr Willis on behalf of Mr ( 1) Calls upon the Premier to convene a Askin) agreed to: meeting of State Premiers to protest-- ( 1) That the Library Committee for the Mr MAHONEY: On a point of order. Mr present Session consist of Mr Speaker, Ml' Speaker, I ask you to rule whether it con­ Hunter, Mr Mead, Mr Cowan, Mr Taylor, travenes the practice of this House and that Mr Booth, Mr Cox, Mr Earl, Mr Johnstone, and the Mover, with authority and power to of the House of Commons for the Chairman act jointly with the Ubrary Committee of the of Committees, the Deputy-Speaker, to Legislative Council in accordance with the move a motion and to participate in debate Assembly's resolution of 6th August, 1862. in the House. I realize that in this matter (2) That the Committee have leave to sit during the sittings of the House. nothing in our standing orders lays down any practice in this House, although our

HOUSE standing orders do provide that, where nothing is provided in them, the standing Motion (by Mr Willis on behalf of Mr orders and practice of the House of Com­ Askin) agreed to: mons shall be adopted. I should like to ( 1) That the House Committee for the know how the honourable member's motion present Session consist of Mr Speaker, Mr Griffith, Mr Mauger, Mr Duncan, Mr Wotton, can be reconciled with this statement at Mr Ferguson, Mr Flaherty, Mr R. J. Kelly, Mr page 253 of the latest edition of May's McCartney, and the Mover, with authority to act in matters of mutual concernment with Parliamentary Practice: any Committee appointed for similar purposes The Chairman of Ways and Means-- by the Legislative Council. (2) That the Committee have leave to sit He corresponds to the Chairman of Com­ during the sittings of the House. mittees in this House. Commonwealth-State [10 SEPT., 1968] Financial Relations 731 -during his occupancy of that office fol­ debate, voting in debate, and moving lows the same tradition of abstention from motions. I recall that the former honour­ party controversy as the Speaker. able member for Kurri Kurri, the late He no longer exercises the rights of the ordinary Member to participate in debates and George Booth, on a number of occasions divisions of the House. over many years, participated in debate, voted in divisions and moved motions. The Mr Speaker, I contend that this practice practice of the House of Commons has no should be followed in this House because bearing upon the situation in the Legisla­ nothing is laid down on this matter in our tive Assembly of New South Wales. standing orders, and it is clearly stated that in the House of Commons ,the Chairman of Mr SPEAKER: Order! I should first point Committees cannot participate in debate or out to the honourable member for Parra­ move a motion. In the circumstances, I matta and the House that the Chairman of submit that the honourable member is out Committees is Deputy-Speaker only when of order. he is actually sitting in this chair in the Mr WILLis: On the point of order. I sub­ absence of the Speaker, or when the mit tha:t the point taken by the honourable Speaker is out of the State. Only on those tpember for Parramatta would perhaps l;le occasions does the Chairman of Commit­ sound if he were to raise it in the House of tees become the Deputy-Speaker. The Commons, not that he will probably ever other points to which the honourable mem­ have that opportunity. In many respects ber for Parramatta referred are only matters the situation in this House is entirely dif­ of convention and the point taken by the ferent. Having seized a copy of May im­ Minister for Labour and Industry is quite mediately after the honourable member be­ sound. This Parliament is not bound by gan quoting from it, I noticed that he did t;hos·e conv·entions and the Chairman of not complete the remainder of the para­ Committees himself is not bound by them. graph from which he was quoting. Had he This is a matter for him to decide. If he completed it, the difference between the wishes to move a motion, to speak in de­ practice in the House of Commons and that bate cir to vote in division, that is a matter in the Legislative Assembly of New South entirely for him. Without entering into the Wales would have become apparent im­ merits of undertaking such a course, I mediately. The House of Commons has point out there is precedent in this Parlia­ about 635 members compared with our ment, at any rate, for the Chairman of membership of ninety-f.our and the House Committees to do those things. It is en­ of Commons has many traditions in regard tirely a matter for him. We are not bound to the speakership and deputy-speakership by the conventions of the House of Com­ ,th~t ar~ not followed in this House to any­ mons referred to in May and I therefore thmg hke the extent they are in England. rule that the point is not soundly taken. For example, I have witnessed in this House Mr PUNCH: I shall start again. I move: the Speaker voting on an occasion when a That this House: Committee was evenly divided. ( 1) Calls upon the Premier to convene a This would be unthinkable in the House meeting of State Premiers to protest against of Commons because of the very size of the Commonwealth Government's refusal to the House-635 members. However in a reverse the trend of centralization of Govern­ ment administration and finance in Canberra. House of ninety-four members it is p~ssible (2) . Urges the .establishment of a permanent for a situation to arise much more easily in Council of Premiers to marshal opposition to which the House will be evenly divided. Commonwealth inroads into spheres of State The same could be said in respect of the administration, and to prepare for submission Deputy-Speaker's · position. Futhermore, to the Commonwealth a structure for a new financial agreement in Commonwealth-State re­ and this I submit is fatal to the point raised lations. by the honourable member, there are pre­ ( 3) Demands that, in the meantime, the cedents without number of members of this State of New South Wales receives a more House who have been Deputy-Speaker and equitable reimbursement of taxation and ap­ proval for more adequate borrowing of loan Chairman of Committees participating in funds. 732 Commonwealth-State [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations In 1902 one of our most eminent Prime Mr EINFELD: I mention it in passing. It Ministers, Mr Arthur Deakin-- is a sham and it is hypocrisy. The honour­ able member for Gloucester is asking the Mr EINFELD: On a point of order. I House to call upon the Premier to convene submit that the first paragraph of the a meeting ; the Premier will say, "I did this motion that the honourable member for days ago. It is a stupid parliament that Gloucester has moved is out of order in tells me to do something that I have already that the situation is non-existent. The done." Obviously the motion is out of motion begins: order. That this House: Mr PuNcH: On the point of order. It (1) Calls upon the Premier to convene a meeting of State Premiers to protest against is obvious that the Deputy Leader of· the the Commonwealth Government's refusal to Opposition is concerned at the swift action reverse the trend of centralization of Govern­ taken by the Premier. I point out that ment administration and finance in Canberra. notice of the motion was given in the House on Thursday week last-twelve days ago. Everyone in New South Wales and No move whatsoever had been made therl; probably everyone in Australia who reads, when the motion was placed on the busi­ knows that the Premier has in fact already ness paper, the Premier acted. It is only convened that meeting. Could I point out evidencing the slogan that the Premier took that, therefore, the circumstances are non­ to the people-"Askin for action". In fact existent? Once the Premier has convened the Premier has seen the merits of this a meeting, we cannot call upon him to do course of action and has invited the State so. He has taken action ; he has convened Premiers to come together. The first para­ the meeting. He has sent out telegrams graph is part of the motion of which notice to every Premier in Australia for this very was given by me, and under the procedures purpose. Therefore this part of the motion of the House it must be moved~ is completely redundant. The standing orders say that to debate a non-existent Mr EINFELD: On the point of order. The circumstance would make the House look honourable member for Gloucester gives as foolish in the public eye. You, sir, ruled his reason for opposing the point of order recently that we could not debate a matter that this part of the motion was included in that was non-existent. It would make the the notice of motion given last week, but it House look foolish if we were to pass a is within his rights to seek to withdraw that resolution today that calls upon the Pre­ portion of the motion. The Opposition will mier to convene a meeting when he has be happy to give him leave to withdraw the already done so. part that is redundant. Is it not ridiculous to call for action that has already been Mr SIMPSON: They have all accepted. taken? The situation is quite clear. We know very well that before this meeting Mr EINFELD: In fact all the invitations takes place, the Government will bring in a · have been accepted, as the honourable vicious budget with heavy taxation imposts. member for Lake Macquarie reminds me. That much is quite clear. How can we Mr Brand said, "It is silly-because we just debate a motion to do something that has met." Mr Chalk is to come from Bris­ already been done? It is quite absurd. We bane. Sir Henry Bolte says that it is on this side of the House will unanimously ridiculous, but nevertheless the notices have support a motion by the honourable mem­ gone out convening a meeting. Replies ber for Gloucester for leave to withdraw have come in. The meeting has been con­ that part of his notice of motion which is vened. We know it is ridiculous and that redundant. the whole thing is a sham. That has noth­ ing to do with this House. Mr CuTLER: On the point of order. Ob­ viously the Deputy Leader of the Opposi­ Mr SPEAKER: It has nothing to do with tion, under the guise of a point of order, the point of order. is trying to win a debate that he already MrPunch] Commonwealth-State [10 SEPT., 1968] Financial Relations 733 lost on Saturday night. It is intended at the ground. This does not guarantee that that conference that has already been called by has happened, even if it may be proper to the Premier to discuss Commonwealth-State rule such a motion out of order if it had relations. The motion moved by the hon­ happened, which I doubt. ourable member for Gloucester deals with a refusal of the Commonwealth to take Mr K. J. STEWART: But you agreed that certain action. it had. Mr EINFELD: Is not that Commonwealth­ Mr DARBY: From the .confessions of the State relations? Opposition and the points that I have put forward, together with those raised by the Mr CUTLER: You are not on the telly Deputy Premier, it is obvious that the House now; you can relax. We are a wake-up should well regard this motion~ to you here. The two matters are com­ pletely different. One deals with a refusal Mr K. J. STEWART: You agree that it is of the Commonwealth to take certain redundant. action. The conference called by the Pre­ mier deals with matters of Commonwealth­ Mr DARBY: No. It may well be that State financial relations. I take the point, the House is not satisfied with the particular Mr Speaker, that the two matters could arrangements that the Premier has made reasonably be ruled by you to be quite with regard to discussing financial relation­ separate matters altogether. Therefore, the ships, as announced by the Premier, and point of order taken by the honourable that the House will insist that, so far as gentleman does not stand up. possible, the State Premiers will really pro­ test against the Commonwealth's refusal Mr DARBY: On the point of order. It to reverse the trend of centralization of is true that any motion concerning some­ government administration and finance in thing which does not exist may well be Canber,ra. That may well be, but the ruled out of order. For example, if a point I make is that one need not go so far motion were moved for the calling of a as that to determine whether the motion meeting of State Premiers, and at that time is in order. It is in order by the simplest there were no State Premiers, obviously test. the motion would be redundant and out of order. For a long time in this House Mr BANNON: On the point of order. I honourable members have seen on the submit that the Deputy Premier debated business paper and have debated motions the point of order merely on the usage of the immediate purpose or part purpose of words. It is clear that the conference of which has aJready been fulfilled, unless of all the Premiers which the Premier has course, debate or passage of a bill had publicly stated that he has called, at which been anticipated. If the Premier of his the Premiers will protest about Common­ own volition called a meeting of the State wealth-State relationships and the failure of Premiers to discuss a related but not identi­ the Commonwealth Government to return cal matter to this, that is his own responsi­ to the States an adequate share of taxation, bility. We are not concerned whether or is a smokescreen to cover up the taxation not he was inspired by this notice of slugs that will be imposed in the Budget. motion on the business paper. The Pre­ The House is being asked to call upon the mier's action does not in any way cover Premier to convene a meeting of State wholly the compass of this motion which, Premiers to protest against the Common­ if ,carried, will give the Premier the authority wealth Government's refusal to reverse the of this House to do certain things. trend of centralization of government ad­ ministration and finance in Canberra. In Mr Cox: He has done it without that. other words, it is only a question of inter­ Mr DARBY: In the circumstances I have pretation of words. The House is asked outlined, the wordy case for the oblitera­ to protest against the Commonwealth Gov­ tion of this phrase falls completely to the ernment's retaining more taxation revenue 734 Commonwealth-State [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations than members say it is entitled to. On the Mr SPEAKER: As an honourable member other hand, the Premier has called a meeting interjects, we do not even know officially of State P,remiers to protest about the failure whether the Premier bas called a meeting. of the Commonwealth Government to give I think it is for the House itself to deter­ back to the State governments a fair share mine whether it will pass a motion of this of the taxes raised in the States. It is nature and call upon the Premier •to do merely a play on words. Clearly, the Pre­ certain things. I do not think the Speaker mier has already called the identical meeting should be put in the position of having to of State Premiers that is referred to in the decide something of which neither he nor motion, which is obviously redundant. the House has any official knowledge or notice. In the circumstances I am unable Mr MAHONEY: On the point of order, to uphold the point of order. Mr Speaker. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition objects to paragraph ( 1) of the Mr PUNCH: The view expressed by the motion, which calls upon ·the Premier to Deputy Leader of the Opposition is indica­ convene a meeting of State Premiers to tive of the inaction and ineffectual admin­ protest against the Commonwealth Govern­ istration of the Labor Party in all its time ment's refusal to reverse the trend of cen­ in government. It failed miserably to re­ tralization of government administration solve ·this problem. In 1902, one of our and finance in Canberra. What will be the most eminent Prime Ministers, Mr Alfred result if the House carries the motion? The Deakin, said: House will then ask the Premier to convene As the power of the purse in Great Britain a meeting of State Premiers to protest about established by degrees the authority of the Commons, it will ultimately establish in Aus­ these things, and the Premier will say that tralia the authority of the Commonwealth. The he has already done so. This would make rights of self-government of the States have ·the House look foolish. The motion is wast­ been fondly supposed to be safeguarded by the ing the time of the House today. I refer Constitution. It left them legally free, but financially bound to the chariot wheels of the to one of your own rulings, Mr Speaker, in Central Government. Their need will be its the book of your decisions, at page 20, opportunity. The less populous will first suc­ decision No. 110, where you speak about cumb; those smitten by drought or similar mis­ matters dependent upon non-existent cir­ fortune will follow; and finally even the greatest and most prosperous will, however cumstances. You say that to debate non­ reluctantly be brought to heel. Our Constitu­ existent circumstances would make the tion may remain unaltered, but a vital change House look foolish in the public eye. This will have taken place in the relations between motion, if carried, would clearly make the the States and the Commonwealth. The Com­ monwealth will have acquired a general con­ House look foolish. The House is being trol over the States, while every extension of asked to agree to a motion that asks the political power will be made by its means and Premier to do something that he has done go to increase its relative superiority. already. I submit that it is out of order. Those words were uttered sixty-six years Mr SPEAKER: Order! The point taken by ago. How prophetically true they have the Deputy Leader of the Opposition is in­ proved to be. With the introduction of teresting and not easy to resolve, but of special assistance grants, the establishment course, it is not exactly parallel with my of •the C.A.R. fund, the establishment of own ruling to which the honourable mem­ the Loan Council, the establishment of the ber for Parramatta has referred. That par­ Commonwealth Grants Commission, the in­ ticular case dealt with non-existent circum­ troduction of uniform taxation and then the stances. I have no notice or knowledge control of the banks-to name only a few whatever, nor has the House, except from matters-we have seen a diminishing in­ the press-and the House does not take notice officially of what appears in the press fluence of State administration and increas­ -of the purpose for which the Premier has ing powers to the central government. called any meeting of State Premiers. This trend has been most marked in Mr HuNTER: Nor that he has called ·a recent years and we have now reached the meeting. stage, with the new five-year agreement due MrPunch] Commonwealth-State [10 SEPT., 1968] Financial Relations 735 for renewal in 1970, that could well see the officers of various governments and private end of State responsibility. T'he control by administrators from outside Parliament and the Commonwealth under this agreement nominated by governments cannot sit down could weB be CQilTiplete, and we would have and discuss this major problem which al­ seen the States, as envisaged at federation, most everybody agrees is becoming much completely devoured by the monster which worse. they created-federation. Much has been said and written in recent months-indeed Mr SIMPSON: You have only had this recent years-of this very frightening trend since 1965. of centralization of all power in Canberra, and of the increasing concern so frequently Mr PUNCH: If the honourable member expressed in all parliaments in Australia for Lake Macquarie will only listen he will against government by bureaucracy. This hear shortly how the inadequacies of his is happening, and it is time that action was own party have got the State into the taken to check and, indeed, to reverse the trouble that it is in today. This matter trend. has been going on for years. Indeed, if the honourable member for Lake Macquarie I should like to explain in some detail had been listening earlier, he would have what has happened to the States since World heard me say that this trend has been in War II and where the trend will lead unless evidence since World War II. I am not changes are made, and to put forward for trying to lay the blame anywhere ; I am the consideration of this House some con­ trying to do something that is foreign to structive suggestions on how and in what the Labor Party-to put forward something form this remedial action may be taken. constructive that will benefit all the people Also, I want to compare our own federal in this State, including parents and their system with other federations, particularly children. This is something that the hon­ in the United States of America and ourable member's party failed to do. Had Canada, where in the past ten years major action been taken twenty years ago, the changes have been made to restore to present position in this State would be much the States and the provinces responsi­ different. bility and finance previously lost to In the interest of the 4,500,000 residents them. The first need is to co-ordinate the expressions of concern so freely of New South Wales, the pressing and often made by all State governments against controversial needs concerning Sydney Hos­ the continuing and increasing trend pital, the opera house, the eastern suburbs towards centralized government. I believe railway, the western and southern distri­ all State governments would accept that a buters, and all the other education, health, review of the present position is long over­ conservation, or road demands are minute due. We have heard a little this afternoon compared with the State's problem of try­ about this meeting of 4th October. It has ing to overcome this most critical situation. been called by the Premier, and all States have accepted his invitation. This meeting Why, for example, have the general revenue could well bring about the co-ordination grants to the States fallen from 38 per cent needed. of income tax revenue in 1959'-60 to 30 The second reason for my motion is to per cent in 1968-69-equivalent to a try to establish a permanent council of $250,000,000 loss to New South Wales? Premiers-indeed, a council of State govern­ Apart from the transfer of responsibility ments-to prepare a sound and constructive for certain social services following a Con­ submission as a basis on which discussions stitution amendment in 1946, there has with the Commonwealth authorities may been no diminution in the responsibilities take place, and through which the structure vested in the States. Indeed, it is largely for a rewritten agreement may emerge. No­ in the· area of State responsibility for de­ body can convince me that, as mature, sane velopment and for vital services such as and responsible men, Ministers of State, education, health, and law and order, with 736 Commonwealth-State [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations the possible exception of pensioner pay­ the trouble. I might add that had the ments for which the Commonwealth is re­ percentage remained the same since the end sponsible, that public pressure for increased of the war, when New South Wales re­ expenditure has been the greatest. ceived 41 per cent, this State would have In the field of education-which is the received over $800,000,000 more in tax largest single item of expenditure in the reimbursement grants up to this year. This budget of this or any other State-New sum would have enabled us to build all South Wales has had to increase its expendi­ necessary schools, hospitals, roads, bridges ture by 134 per cent since 1959-60, but in and teachers colleges, and to connect sew­ the same period the tax reimbursement grant erage to various parts of the city that are to the State has increased by only 81 per without it. Action should have been taken cent. As the relative growth rates are 11.2 at the critical time shortly after the war per cent for education and 7.7 per cent for when the slide began. Do not let honour­ the tax grant, I believe these figures indi­ able members opposite blame the Govern­ cate the very real problems which have ment for their own inadequacies. Let us faced the State Government in meeting face the facts and try to overcome the this great challenge. ~here is no doubt problem ; let us forget about the past. that the children in New South Wales schools, the patients in our hospitals, the Mr SIMPSON: Why don't you speak the car owners of New South Wales, and in­ truth? deed, all other New South Wales citizens, Mr ACTING-SPEAKER (Mr CLOUGH): I are suffering inconvenience and hardship should like to draw the attention of honour­ because of the Commonwealth's attitude in able members to the fact that the mover of withholding funds to which this State's citi­ this motion, the honourable member for zens are surely entitled. Gloucester, has already lost a lot of his Since 1959 Commonwealth income tax valuable time as the result of various points receipts have shown a natural growth rate of order. Therefore, I ask honourable averaging about 10.8 per cent a year. On members to maintain silence and to allow the other hand, the average annual growth him to continue his speech. ·rate of tax reimbursement grants to New South Wales has been about 7.7 per cent. Mr PUNCH: I have already mentioned The difference of 3 per cent means that that expenditure on education in New this year alone this State has lost over South Wales has grown at an average rate $10,000,000. The Commonwealth has of about 11.2 per cent since 1959-60. This had available to it substantial revenues that is still not high enough. In 1967-68 ex­ could have been available to the States but penditure on education exceeded that in for the Commonwealth's assumption of the 1959-60 by $153,000,000, but by way of sole right to collect income tax. Prior to contrast, honourable members will be in­ the new agreement in 1958-1959, New terested to know that the tax grant to the South Wales received 33.7 per cent of the State increased by only $136,000,000 over distribution of the funds under the uniform the same period. That is $17,000,000 less taxation agreement. If this percentage had than the increase in the costs of education been maintained for the next ten vears, alone. Over the same period the income the State would be $95,000,000 richer in tax receipts of the Commonwealth increased grants alone. by 151 per cent, or $2,000 million. The increase to the States was $500,000,000, an Mr NEILLY: Who has been the Com­ increase of 102 per cent. I have a graph monwealth Government all that time? here which shows very clearly how the lines Mr PUNCH: A Labor government was are widening, moving ever apart ; as the in office in this State at that time. increase in the re.ceipts go one way, the Honourable members opposite are very payments to the States move in yet another touchy on this subject ; they realize direction, with a widening gap between that they missed the boat. That is them. Commonwealth-State (10 SEPT., 1968] Financial Relations 737 Mr CRABTREE: That is in accordance with of taxation in which the taxes are not on the formula. profits, but affect the economy and industry of the State. Mr PUNCH: That is true. We are try­ ing to deal at this stage with something Mr CRABTREE: They affect even the that should have been done years ago. The cost of the food. result of this situation is that State gov­ ernments have had to look to their own Mr PUNCH: That is correct. At the more limited sources of revenue to a greater same time, the money which the Common­ extent than they would normally have been wealth lent to the States is being used, in •equired to do. At federation, •certain most cases, to bring about a bigger return powers and responsibilities were given to to the Commonwealth in the form of in­ the Commonwealth Government and all creased taxation, payroll and other taxes, other powers and responsibilities were re­ in which the State does not share. This tained by the States. Basically, the Com­ position must ,continue to worsen because monwealth was to be responsible for ex­ the State debt is increasing enormously ternal affairs, defence, trade-but not intra­ and interest repayment has reached a stag­ state trade-and other specified activities, gering figure, absorbing an ever-increasing while the States, with sovereign rights, were proportion of the State Budget. We are considered to be the appropriate authori­ heading for the ultimate position in which ties to develop their own areas and to look the State Budget will be needed in its en­ after the more domestic matters, such as tirety to meet loan repayments and interest education, water ,conservation, the admin­ charges to the Commonwealth. Startling as istration of justice, mads, hospitals, and this may sound, it is clearly borne out ·by so on. the figures. Since federation, and particularly since In 1957-58 the loan indebtedness of New the introduction of uniform taxation in South Wales was $1,657 million, while that 1942, the Commonwealth has gradually of the other States was $3,029 million, a acquired more and more power to control total of $4,686 million. In the same year the domestic affairs of the States. This the loan indebtedness of the Commonwealth power has been acquired by granting to the was $3,670 million. Ten short years later, States financial assistance for specific pur­ in 1967-68, the loan indebtedness was: poses in addition to norma.! tax reimburse­ New South Wales $2,773 million, other ments. Each time aid was given a condi­ States $5,544 million, a total of $8,317 tion was attached on how the money was •to million; and the Commonwealth $3,600 ·be spent, thus whittling down the States' million. In that period the Commonwealth diminishing powers. 1lhis has now reached reduced its loan indebtedness by the stage of being a real threat to State $70,000,000, but the States had their in­ sovereignty. The States have been forced to debtedness increased by $3,631 million, or relinquish control of their own domestic approximately 80 per cent. The indebted­ affairs ; the hazardous financial position ness of New South Wales alone increased by allowed them no choice. Because of the $1,116 million, while the Commonwea.Ith's difficulty of the States in meeting their many indebtedness was reduced by $70,000,000. growing commitments, New South Wales The increase in loan indebtedness a has been forced almost to treble its taxation head of population from 1957-58 income in the period from 1957-58 to to 1967-68 shows even more striking 1967-68 from $70,000,000 to $196,000,000, comparisons. In that period the COm­ while the Commonwealth's has moved from monwealth's loan indebtedness a head $2,314 million to $4,869 miUion. Pro­ decreased from $373 to $299, while that portionately, this has been a much more of the States increased from $479 to $701. difficult task for the States than for the The total loan indebtedness a head in Commonwealth. The CommonweaUh has 1957-58 was $866 and in 1967-68 it had therefore forced the States into new fields increased to $991. 47 738 Commonwealth-State [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations

No State government worthy of the name though they may be helpful in specific will stand by and let its State stagnate. Only fields, are no real answer to the by recourse to new fields of taxation have broad problems which face the States and State governments been able to provide indeed, where matching funds are required, community services at a reasonable level. they tend to complicate State budgets and One would think from some of the state­ may even divert State funds from areas ments emanating from Canberra that the which State governments may consider to Commonwealth Government alone is re­ have a higher priority. Moreover, the Com­ sponsible for the development of Australia. monwealth's entry into State fields in this Under a true federal system the State gov­ way has generally resulted in the costly ernments have a big share of this respons­ duplication of administrative processes. It ibility. But it is an unfortunate fact at the would be far preferable for Commonwealth present time that the more the States expand policy to be directed towards improving the and develop, the more difficult their task tax reimbursement grant arrangements to becomes. This is because their development enable the States themselves to provide ade­ increases demands upon them but operates quately for the areas to which Common­ to increase the financial strength of the wealth special grants relate. This has been Commonwealth through the generation of done in the past ten years in our sister taxation which that Government refuses to dominion of Canada, which, like Australia, share equitably with them. is a relatively new nation. It is a potentially rich country, large in area, but small in It is true that the Commonwealth population. Its provinces also experienced makes payments to the States other very severe financial problems in their efforts than the tax reimbursement grants, and to maintain the rapid rate of development. a word or two about these payments Their system, however, is considerably dif­ may not be out of place. Their ex­ ferent from the system that operates in istence is often put forward by the Com­ Australia but at this point it is worthy of monwealth to support its opposition to State mention to show what can be done if a littl~ requests for a change in present financial co-operation is available. arrangements. The funds provided are often directed to areas that would normally have For many years the provinces have re­ been covered by the States had their re­ ceived a percentage of federal revenue de­ sources been .adequate for the purpose and rived from personal income tax, corporation this, in itself, is an indication of the present tax, and estate tax. Mr John Diefenbaker, deficiencies in the distribution of financial on assuming office in 1957, had increased resources between ,the several governments. the standard rate on personal income tax to In general, however, the States are merely be paid to the provinces. In 1958-59, the acting as agents for the Commonwealth by first year of operation, this had brought to assisting to implement Commonwealth the provinces an increase of $56.000,000 policy decisions to sponsor some activity of on what the earlier formula would have re­ particular interest to it. turned in that year. In 1959-60 the in­ Motion (by Mr Ruddock) agreed to: crease was $67,000,000, in 1960-61, the estimated increase was $68,000,000, and in That the honourable member for Gloucester, 1961-62 the estimated increase was Mr Punch, be allowed to continue his speech for a further period of twenty minutes. $72,000,000. Although the Canadian national government had greatly improved Mr PUNCH: I thank the House for its indulgence. the financial position of the provinces by this move, it recognized the weakness of Mr CRABTREE: What .about the 1965 the existing tax system and was certain that agreement? a new approach was needed-one which Mr PUNCH: It is obvious that members would give greater freedom and responsi­ opposite cannot get their minds on to bility to the provincial governments and bigger questions to try to save this could fit within the limits of the Canadian State. These Commonwealth grants, even constitution. Commonwealth-State [10 SEPT., 1968] Financial Relations 739 In 1960-61, three dominion-provincial These moves have now overcome a host of conferences were held to try to reach agree­ problems and indicate unquestionably that ment on what should be included in a new in a healthy federal State the goal must be financial agreement about to be drawn up. enlightened co-operation rather than cen­ The conferences were held in July and tralism, so that the provinces or States can October, 1960, and in February, 1961. At face up to their responsibilities which were the first conference the provinces presented assigned to them by the constitution. their views on the form the new arrange­ ments should take. Their proposals, if Federation requires that the .people of adopted, would have cost the federal the more highly developed and financially treasury an enormous sum and it became stronger States contribute to the develop­ evident to all governments that the trouble ment of the other States and of Australia as with the financial relations lay with the tax a whole. This principle is accepted by this rental system, which was unsound. This Government, but we feel that, as the finan­ system placed on the federal government the cially weaker States improve their position whole responsibility for levying additional there should be some scaling down in the taxes to support provincial expenditure. The assistance they require and that there should provinces had no freedom to amend the be ~ narrowing of the gaps between the per rates in line with their demands. Such a capita grants to all States. In fact, the system was regarded as clearly destructive gaps are widening and we in New South of provincial responsibility and initiative Wales are entitled to complain about ar­ and incompatible with their constitution, rangements which operate to deny our State which granted equal access to the federal the means to finance essential public ser­ and provincial governments in these fields vices without increasing recourse to regres­ of direct taxation. At the second meeting, sive forms of taxation. The only revenue in ,October, 1960, the Prime Minister sug­ fields left to the States to bridge this ever - gested that the provinces might consider increasing gap are inflationary, inequitable, again imposing their own taxes on individual expensive to collect and regressive in their and corporate income and prepared certain total effect. But while the present financial proposals for discussion at the next meet­ arrangements apply, State governments have ing. These included a promise to recom­ no option but to use them. Stagnation is mend to parliament that the three shared not an acceptable alternative. Responsi­ taxes be reduced at the time of the termina­ bility for breaking the present vicious circle tion of the present tax rental agreement rests squarely in Canberra. The responsi­ and phased out gradually over five years, bility is not simply to mollify irate State so that they could be replaced by provincial governments with cash handouts. It means levies. acceptance of the fact that many State func­ tions are as vital to national development At the final meeting in February, 1961, as those exercised by the Commonwealth. the Prime Minister undertook to introduce a new agreement, to be implemented over The simple fact is that with the introduc­ a five-year period. This new agreement tion of uniform taxation the sources of meant that the provinces would re-assume revenue available only to the Common­ their constitutional rights and responsibilities wealth have a much greater growth rate than the more confined areas of revenue to impose and vary their tax levies as they open to the States. Unless the Common­ saw fit. At the same time, in the interests wealth is prepared to share these revenues of administrative simplicity and uniformity, more equitably, the States will continue to and in order to save the provinces the ex­ have real difficulty in providing the essen­ pense of setting up tax collecting machinery tial services which the community demands of their own, the federal government was of them. I must, however, make one point prepared to collect the provincial personal very clear at this stage. This is the line income tax and corporation taxes, free of which must be drawn between taxation re­ charge, provided the provincial tax base was imbursement and loan allocation. The identical with the federal base at all times. motion specifically refers to "approval 740 Commonwealth-State [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations for more adequate borrowing of loan to New South Wales. Yet, the Prime Min­ funds", a need which is very great to allow ister announced the scheme in November the State, and, through the State, semi- and 1966, submissions were invited in June local-government bodies to carry on their 1967, and New South Wales made its very progressive plans for future development, comprehensive submissions by September I must emphasize that by far the greatest 1967. Queensland received an allocation and most vitally urgent need, and certainly of $20,000,000 for works at Emerald, and the main reason for my motion today, is Victoria received $3,600,000 for works in greater tax reimbursements. Even if larger western Victoria-both just prior to the loan allocations were provided, without ad­ federal Senate elections. Western Australia ditional tax reimbursement they would had a grant for the Ord River scheme ap­ create further problems for the State which proved, but I understand that this was not it would find almost impossible to over­ to be deducted from the promised come. For example, if the Commonwealth $50,000,000. New South Wales, with its agreed to make more loan funds available tremendous need for water conservation, for more schools, the State immediately still in the throes of major drought in some would have to provide from its limited re­ areas and just recovering from its worst­ sources more architects and planners to ever drought in other areas, has heard design the new buildings and say in what nothing in response to submissions made forms they will be used. Upon their com­ twelve months ago. pletion, the State must provide more staff A short time ago the Commonwealth and maintenance to operate the buildings Government loudly announced plans for a effectively. The funds for this all come from $25,000,000 expenditure to rehabilitate the State resources. For planners, researchers, dairy industry. The States, with their architects, and nurses, all associated with highly efficient departments of agriculture, hospital expansion, the main problem for and the New South Wales Department of the State is wages-not construction costs. Lands with the new farm build-up scheme So at all times in approaches by the Premier which has operated effectively and has been the accent has been on tax reimbursement. highly successful, would be the logical ones Following the Premiers' Conference in to carry out any major scheme, but they February, 1967, the Prime Minister wrote were not even consulted as to the effec­ to all States inviting them to. make submis­ tiveness of the Commonwealth scheme or sions on the long-term aspect of Common­ how it could be introduced. When details wealth-State financial relations. New South became known, the inference that Wales complied with this request and the $25,000,000 was to be given by the Com­ Premier submitted a most comprehensive monwealth disappeared. Instead, a scheme case for a review and the introduction of a was announced whereby the States would new structure. The submissions had the borrow the money, repay it with interest, support, in principle, of all States. They and follow a plan approved by the Com­ were rejected completely by the Common­ monwealth but implemented by the States­ wealth. If the Premier comes into this yet the States were not even consulted debate I hope he will release copies of those before the scheme was announced. Is submissions, so that members opposite and this co-operation? indeed everyone in this State may see what Education is probably the best example a very formidable case was put forward of unnecessary overlapping. The Com­ to the Commonwealth. Let me instance monwealth is providing contributions to­ a few cases of Commonwealth indifference, wards universities, technical ·colleges, col­ and indeed, arrogance. leges of advanced education, teachers col­ Only recently I inquired about the result leges and schools. These are all State of this State's approach for a share of the areas where Commonwealth aid has only $50,000,000 which the Commonwealth an­ become necessary because it has taken to nounced was to be given for water conser­ itself alone access to the major taxation vation. No funds have yet been allocated sources. The Commonwealth also makes MrPunch] Commonwealth-State [10 SEPT., 1968] Financial Relations 741 grants for scholarship allowances for uni­ frank discussions. The Premier, has taken versity, technical college, and secondary these steps and a meeting has been called school purposes. These, too, could be made for 4th October. I understand that every by the State if funds were available to it. State has accepted the invitation to be pre­ The expenditures themselves are not in sent. These men, regardless of their party, question, but there are grounds for suggest­ are practical politicians. They certainly do ing that administration would be much more not want to lead a government devoid of efficient if State governments were in a any power or responsibility. Only by a position to do all these things without the combined effort from the States will the necessity for Commonwealth intervention. Commonwealth accept that the need for change exists. No effort should be spared Section 51 of the Commonwealth Con­ between now and the next Premiers' Con­ stitution, which in a clear statement lays ference to reach complete agreement on the down the powers of the Commonwealth vital points which affect the future of the Government, does not give any indication of States and their residents. its power over education, and yet this year, the federal Department of Education, which Last year, in the budget debate, I put a is duplicating the work done so effectively suggestion to the House that a small com­ by our own State Department of Education, mittee be established outside of Parliament has been voted $129,000,000. The Com­ to review this matter of Commonwealth­ monwealth Government recognizes that this State financial and constitutional relations. need exists, but why cannot that money be It is obvious to anyone at all familiar with given back to the States so that they may ·the subject that changes must be made. My administer education, cutting out this costly suggestion in that speech was that this Gov­ and unnecessary duplication. (Quorum ernment should appoint a small but expert formed.) As with education, the Common­ committee of competent constitutional wealth makes substantial .funds available in authorities to assess the State's current posi­ one way or another for health purposes, tion in relation to the original concept in and the same costly duplication exists. the Constitution, and to review all implica­ tions as quickly as possible. Concurrently, Examples such as these suggest that there the Government should request the other is room for a really detailed examination of States to set up similar committees and by the extent to which Commonwealth and agreement, set a time for all the State com­ State services are overlapping at the cost of mittees to confer. I must emphasize that the the Australian taxpayer. Some rationaliza­ key to the success of this committee would tion could easily be brought about if State be the ability of its members. They must financial resources were adequate to enable be carefully chosen. Perhaps one should the State governments to provide fully for be a man learned in constitutional matters, the services which are largely their consti­ and perhaps another should be a successful tutional responsibility. What is the solution? businessman. However, they should ali have The first thoughts must be directed towards a sound knowledge of politics, they should preparation of a detailed case for acceptance all be practical men, and some of them as a new structure for CommonweaJ.th-State should be well versed in legal matters. financial relations. While the smaller States, which have done so well financially in re­ Today I intend to repeat this proposal­ cent years, may perhaps be a little reluctant not as an immediate solution, as it would be I do believe that they must see that if the impossible for any such committee to pre­ major States of New South Wales and Vic­ pare a report for consideration when review­ toria crash, it will only be a matter of time ing the 1970 five-year agreement, but as a before they come very heavily under the basis for the future. I believe that it could control of Canberra and, as small States, well lead •to the holding of another national will be nothing more than satellite councils. convention, which could find the solution to ali our problems. Many people agree The approach therefore, coming from this that the correct and probably the only way State, as ·the senior State, must be quickly to obtain a sound and permanent agreement directed to other Premiers for full and is by the holding of a national convention 742 Commonwealth-State [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations along similar lines to those conventions by popular vote. The purpose of the Gover­ which were held in the 1890s and led to nors' Conference is: "To serve as a federation. · medium for exchange of views and experi­ In 1959, in the United States of America, ence on subjects of importance to the an Advisory Commission on Intergovern­ people of the states, to foster interstate mental Relations was established to try to co-operation, to work for greater efficiency overcome similar problems in that country. in state administration, and to facilitate, This was a major step in the United States. and improve state-local and state-federal The commission consists of twenty-six relations." For more than half a century members including such people as the Sec­ the Governors' Conference has been a retary of the Treasury, the Secretary of strong and constructive force for the im­ Labour, the Secretary of Health and Educa­ provement of State government, the de­ tion, several State governors, mayors of velopment of interstate co-operation, and major cities, and other prominent United the sound progress of the federal system. States administrators. All these people At the annual meetings of the ,conference, confer continually to review intergovern­ the governors explore the matters of com­ mental relations and co-operation. mon interest to all of the States. Between the meetings, the conference committees The committee which I suggest would study subjects of outstanding importance and need to be estabJished on a Commonwealth prepare extensive reports on them. The level, and surely this is the proper and conference participates in many ways in sensible way to iron out difficulties ,between the work of the CounciJ of State Govern­ the States and the Commonwealth. On the ments. State level, I believe that, apart from moves for an early Premiers' conference, In Australia, some similar type of system the Premier of this State should take action could certainly operate very effectively and to bring about a permanent council of its establishment is long overdue. I ask that this House, and particularly the Pre­ Pr~miers, with no Commonwealth represen­ tation, to meet regularly and to discuss mier and the Government, give earnest consideration to the establishment of this ~he many con~tantly arising matters of great mterest and Importance. The main dif­ permanent .council. Perhaps a move along ference between the council of Premiers these lines could be made at the conference that I propose and the normal Premiers' of Premiers on 4th October. We could well Conference is that there wouJd be no Com­ see Premier Askin go down in history as monwealth participation. It would be no the man who brought balance back into use the Commonwealth Government saying Austmlian government. that it was not invited or that it wants to Since this motion was placed on the come to the council of Premiers. Under business paper, much has happened and the system that ·has been established over much more has been written. If the many years, the Commonwealth Govern­ motion has done nothing else, it has cer­ ment has dominated Premiers' conferences tainly stimulated discussion. I have no so now it is time that the States took action: doubt that many other constructive pro­ The council of Premiers could well be posals will be placed before the House by modelled along the lines of the United other members, and I believe that these States of America Council of State Gov­ thoughts and subsequent discussions will ernments, which has achieved so much bring about a greater recognition of the since its establishment. One section of this problems existing and enable changes to be United States council is a Governors' Con­ made to overcome them for the good of ference, first organized in 1908 and com­ everyone in Australia. prising the governors of all Stat~s and Ter­ Mr JENSEN (Wyong) [4.50]: Mr Act­ ritories, which meets in a different State ing-Speaker-- each year. The governors in the United States are not like the governors of •the Mr AcTING-SPEAKER (Mr CLouGH): Australian States ; they are the equivalent Is the honourable member leading for the of our Premiers and are elected to office Opposition? MrPunch] Commonwealth-State [10 SEPT., 1968] Financial Relations 743 Mr JENSEN: No. I have the deepest when we were in government, to which sympathy for the honourable member for they replied that the Commonwealth was Gloucester because it was evident in the generous to New South Wales, that it was course of his remarks that he had been munificent and good, and that it was only put up by his party to participate in the bad management that caused New South spreading of a smoke screen to try to con­ Wales to have to increase taxes under a ceal from the people of this State certain Labor government. This Government is realities which ought not to be concealed. repudiating all those statements and it Js He has studiously avoided the attitude pro­ its party and its Government in Canberra fessed in this Parliament over many years that is responsible for the situation that by the very man he is asking, in this motion, this Government now proposes a confer­ to convene a conference of Premiers to ence to correct. This conference could not discuss Commonwealth-State relationships ; correct the situation, which the Govern­ and he has studied assiduously the attitudes ment now whinges and complains about, taken by the leaders of the parliamentary even though it said it was a masterly policy Labor Party. Much of the material that three or four years ago when its own federal the honourable member for Gloucester colleagues in Canberra imposed it upon the used to advance his case came from Labor people of New South Wales. There would Party sources. The things he avoided say­ have been no need to put up this sugges­ ing come from those who, he suggests, tion here if in those days voices had been should initiate this conference. This motion heard from the most influential Liberal and is a sham. It is not a genuine endeavour Country parties in New South Wales. If to get together the components of our Com­ this motion had been moved at a meeting monwealth in order that it may be possible of the Country Party or a meeting of the to get a better arrangement between the Liberal Party in New South Wales, and if Commonwealth and the States. It is a it had been spread around the Liberal­ sham ; it is hyprocrisy ; it is a smoke screen. Country parties in the various States of It is adding further fuel to the flame ; it is Australia, there would have been no need adding further· to vhe mixture that has to put it up here. been mixed in Canberra by Liberal-Coun­ try party governments through the years. Mr PuNcH: Do you think the system is They are the ones responsible for determin­ right? ing, under the terms of the Constitution, what the various States will receive and Mr JENSEN: I think the system needs what the Commonwealth will retain. correction but I do not believe there is any prospect of its being corrected by the Mr WADDY: You are against us trying spurious proposition that is submitted here to improve conditions? today. The present Government has been a bungling government and an inefficient Mr JENSEN: I am against sham, hum­ government, which has failed to the extent bug and hyprocrisy. I am against this that it is unable to perform the things that Government, which argued for the reten­ it undertook to do within the means avail­ tion of the existing arrangements, now, be­ able to it at the time it made the promises. cause of extravagent pre-election promises, coming to present this motion before this Mr PuNCH: We got the votes. Parliament. This Government promised the people anything in order to be returned Mr JENSEN: And that was the sole and now it is prepared to sell out its own purpose of the promises. That was what federal government to ·make itself look a it was all about: by hook or by crook you bit better. This is what supporters of the had to win, and now you are reaping the Government are doing-they are dumping harvest. I will now give some comparisons. the Liberal-Country party in Canberra. In 1962-1963 the receipts available to New They are saying to their Liberal-Country South Wales from all sources totalled party colleagues in Canberra the things $404,295,522. In 1967-1968 the total re­ that we said to members of the Opposition ceipts available to this Government were 744 Commonwealth-State [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations $615,503,428. This was available to the consequence of that relationship. What de­ present Government to some extent because termines this is the policy of the govern­ the Commonwealth Government had in­ ment in power at Canberra and it is the creased its contributions, but mainly because policy of the government in power at Can­ this Government imposed savagely increased berra to impose on the States the kind of taxes on the people of New South Wales relationship which this Government de­ in spite of the fact that it had promised viously, wishing to propose a Premiers' that it would not do so. In 1963-1964, the conference, suggests it will correct. When last full year of office of the Labor Gov­ the present Premier was Leader of the Op­ ernment, the total was $441,711,448; in position, the Premier and Treasurer of the 1964-1965, $474,066,808, and in 1965- day, now the honourable member for 1966, $534,637,997. This was the year when Castlereagh, in •a budget speech indicated the Premier and Treasurer came back­ dissatisfaction with the nature of the rela­ after Mr Bolte had got behind the chair with tionships between the Commonwealth and Mr Menzies-and said what a wonderful the States. On that occasion the present deal he had made and received the plaudits Premier said, "I will show the complete of supporters in this House. They ap­ hypocrisy of the moth-eaten excuse that the plauded the fantastic deal that he had made Commonwealth does not give New South in negotiations in Canberra. Now it is con­ Wales sufficient finance." The amount of tended that this arrangement has resulted in money given to New South Wales by the substantial reductions in revenue to the Commonwealth in that year, compared wHh people of this Sta·te. the amount given by the Commonwealth to New South Wales this year, was just about The members of the Askin Government half, yet the Premier said at that time when who were responsible for the situation that he was Leader of the Opposition that now obtains, and who have had two Pre­ Labor's complaint was a moth-eaten excuse miers' Conferences t•his year, put forward a and hypocrisy. In 1960-1961 what did the proposition for a conference that is not to present Premier and Treasurer say when he come about between now and the introduc­ was discussing this matter? He said that the tion of the Budget. Already we have had Labor Government had a parrot cry that warnings from the Premier that he must it was not receiving enough money from the do something and that taxes must be in­ Commonwealth Government. He said also: creased. He proposes to call a conference -not to consult with the Commonwealth, It should be abundantly clear to any im­ partial observer . . . that New South Wales which, after all, is the authority to deter­ has received generous treatment from the Com­ mine what the States will or will not receive. monwealth. In 1959-1960 New South Wales The Commonwealth Government is not received £7,300,000 mare-a 9.6 per cent in­ even given an opportunity to participate in crease ... This is fair and reasonable treat­ the conference. Will the Premier of this ment. State ask the Premier of Western Australia What has our Premier and Treasurer re­ to agree that •that State should get less and ceived? Between 1964 and 1968 he has that we should get more? Is this the sort obtained 50 per cent more. When he was on the Opposition side of this House he of thing that is to go on at the conference contended that a 9.6 per cent increase was of Premiers that is proposed in the motion? generous treatment. The important point I I will •tell honourable members some of want to make, and I think the people of this the things that the Premier and Treasurer State should realize it, is that when the said in comments made by him as Leader Liberal-Country Party Government in Can­ of the Opposition in various budget de­ berra determine these things, they look to bates in this Parliament. I want to make it the people of the States, the ones who are clear that the nature of the constitutional the victims of their decisions, to see their relationship between the Commonwealth reaction to what they have done. On each and the States in no way determines how occasion that our Premier stood up in this much money each State will receive as a House as Leader of the Opposition and Mr Jensen] Commonwealth-State [10 SEPT., 1968] Financial Relations 745 complimented the federal Government on 1963, in which he said it was his opinion what it was doing, he was consolidating that the Commonwealth had been more its attitude as shown by its allocations. He than generous in its treatment of New South did it again in 1962 when he said: Wales in the tax disbursement formula. I Running through the Treasurer's speech is propose to move an amendment which, if the same old hackneyed excuse that the Com­ given the approval of this House, will set monwealth Government does not give the State in motion the kind of machinery that will a fair share of the taxation it collects. I went right through the Treasurer's speech and found make possible a solution of the vexatious this familiar line running through it. It seems problem that undoubtedly has existed for a to be the State's Government main stock-in­ long time and will continue to recur be­ trade. I have pointed out before, and it is tween the States and the Commonwealth. worth pointing it out again, that when the Government claims that it is not getting a big The mover of the motion before the House enough share of the taxation it receives from suggested that in the course of time it will the Commonwealth Government, it is in duty be desirable to have a broader convention bound to consider certain matters. One of than the one he proposes. I move: them is that in 1959 this Government through its Premier moved, at the conference between That the Question be amended by leaving the States and the Commonwealth Govern­ ·out paragraphs ( 1) and (2) with a view of ment, for the adoption of the six-year financial inserting the following paragraphs instead agreement ... thereof: The Premier cannot blame the Common­ Mr RuDDOCK: That is a fair sort of an wealth Government because after all he, as amendment. Treasurer of New South Wales, signed the agreement. Irrespective of one's interpreta­ Mr JENSEN: I think the honourable tion of that statement, there is no getting member for The Hills will agree wit!h it round the fact that he moved the motion and I do not think any honourable member for the adoption of the agreement. The will disagree with anything in it. Th.e words Premier, in his role as Leader of the Oppo­ I propose to insert in lieu of those I should sition, went on to say: like to be omitted are as follows: ( 1) This House directs the Premier to The first course open to it is to point to initiate the early convening of a meeting of some item of Commonwealth Government ex­ all Premiers and Leaders of the Opposition penditure that can be either eliminated or very in each State, together with the Prime Min­ substantially reduced. ister, the Federal Treasurer and the Leader He emphasized that it is no good asking of the Opposition in the Commonwealth Parliament to discuss all aspects of Common­ the Commonwealth Government for more wealth-State relationships, especially the trend money unless one says to it, "You of centralization of Government administra­ should spend less on some of the tion and finance in Canberra. things you are doing or you should (2) That this meeting be followed by the levy more taxation." In 1962 the calling of a series of National Constitutional Conventions, consisting of leading Members Premier as Leader of the Opposition of each State Parliament and .the Common­ said that it was wrong to ask the Com­ wealth Parliament, together with citizens ~repre­ monwealth for more money unless it could senting applicable professions, industry, trade be pointed out in what way the Common­ unions and other groups .to review and where wealth was being extravagant with the necessary recommend amendments to the ·Com­ monwealth of Australia Constitution Act. moneys it was receiving or what additional taxes it should impose to make it possible Surely if we are ·to have sensible, effective for the States to be given more money. discussions affecting the relationship of con­ Could any honourable member seriously stitutional government in Australia, it is suggest that the present federal Liberal­ necessll!ry .that not only leaders of govern­ Country Party Government's attitude on ment but also leaders of alternative govern­ ' Commonwealth-State relations was not con­ ment participate in the discussions. For solidated by the persistent support of the many years those who are now in office Leader of the Opposition in 1962? Mem­ were in opposition. bers will be interested in another statement Mr R uooocK: Does it matter how remote made by the Leader of the Opposition in they are? 746 Commonwealth-State [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations

Mr JENSEN: It does not matter. I be­ ourable member for Gloucester very sub­ lieve that all these leaders of oppositions stantially, and the second part goes even and governments should participate if we further by talking about national conventions are to work out a proposal likely to last and the like. The honourable member for some period of time covering relation­ might like to think about it, but as presently ships between the Commonwealth and the minded I might be inclined to rule the States of Australia concerning not only amendment out of order. financial matters but also the many com­ plex matters that arise at different times. Mr BANNON: May we speak on that rul­ I realize that one Country Party Premier ing? cannot come to a conference such as that proposed in the motion. However, five Mr SPEAKER: I have not yet ruled the members of the Liberal Party and one amendment out of order. I have intimated member of the Labor Party will seek to to the honourable member for Wyong that come along and reach such decisions as as presently minded I might rule 1t out of the limited scope of the conference permits. order, but I have not ruled it out of order However, these decisions can be made only at this stage. in the form of recommendations. Other major political parties of Australia will Mr BANNON: Do you propose at some not have an opportunity to ,raise their later stage to give a ruling as to whether voices at the proposed conference. There­ or not the proposed amendment is in order? fore, the Jimited scope of the motion before the House dooms it to ineffectuality, not Mr SPEAKER: I think I shall be left in that I believe that it was ever intended to the position where I shaH have to do that achieve any improvement in Commonwealth­ at some stage. I wanted to do the right State relationships or to assist New South thing, and I had in mind that the honour­ Wales to receive more money as a conse­ able member for Wyong might perhaps quence of its discussions with the Common­ like to have a talk with me in my room. wealth. It is clear that the motion has been moved to shift the blame from the Mr EINFELD: Our worry would be that, place where it properly belongs fairly and if it is out of order, we should like to dis­ squarely-from the Government of this cuss the ground upon which you ruled it State, which has displayed its inability to out of order. finance the activities it has undertaken with­ Mr SPEAKER: I shall not put you in that in available funds. Although it may be position without giving you the opportunity difficult for some members to accept my to argue. contention, I firmly believe that there should be before this House a proposal designed Mr DARBY (Manly) [5.13]: I rise, first, to achieve what someone must at some because I am a State-righter, and second, future time set out to obtain-a working because I object to the statement by the relationship between the Commonwealth honourable member for Wyong that this and the States in all aspects of their motion is a smokescreen, a sham, and many affairs, a relationship that will be just and other nasty things. He said, also, that the will last until changed circumstances sug­ motion was prompted by some people so gest the need for a further conference. For that its mover could establish a smoke­ these reasons I commend my amendment to screen. I want to correct that last state­ the House. ment. I have known the honourable mem­ ber for Gloucester since he came into this Mr SPEAKER: Order! I think I should House and one of the first problems that perhaps intimate to the honourable mem­ we discussed-it was, in fact, when he was ber for Wyong that as presently minded talking about his maiden speech-was I feel that the amendment may be out of State-federal relationships. To my know­ order. The first part of it enlarges the ledge he has been in this House a State­ scope of the motion moved by the bon- righter in every sense. My own regard Commonwealth-State (10 SEPT., 1968) Financial Relations 747 for him has been heightened by his being There has been no more frustrated or a fine successor in that regard to another angry Premier than the Premier of New member of the Country Party from his Souuh Wales. It is to his credit that over area, the late David Drummond. the past few years he has confined his It seems a pity that the honourable mem­ criticism to the conclave of Premiers and ber for Wyong should reduce a carefully Commonwealth representatives and to his worded motion calling for a deliberative de­ own friends and political associates. Now bate to a sink of invective and should begin he has had the courage to call •the tune. the main part of his speech with a personal Aided and inspired by the initiative of the attack upon the integrity of the mover of honourable member for Gloucester, acting the motion. Having done that the honour­ solely as an individual, he has now assumed able member for Wyong said that the whole leadership of a campaign which at least question of challenging the· federal Gov­ will show the people of Australia the diffi­ ernment by the calling together of the Pre­ culties under which they suffer with the miers was stupid, unrealistic and bound to present Commonwealth domination of the be of no consequence. He went on to say States. Whether or not it could be possible that the best ·that could be done was to later to have conventions of the type that have a wider convention so that the top the honourable member for Wyong de­ crust of life in Australia, as it were, con­ scribes is something to be left to the future. sisting of the Premiers, Leaders of the Op­ We have not yet reached the stage where position, and representatives of the Com­ public opinion is aroused enough to de­ monwealth Government could get down mand and support the calling of such a in conference to look at the matter. Whether convention. the amendment is in order is, at this stage, This campaign, initiated on a high level rather beside the point but the solution by the Premier of New South W:ales is not that the honourable member for Wyong only directed at telling the Commo~wealth offered is obviously no solution at all. Government that it must recognize a few This motion modestly but deliberately facts as well as a few principles ; it is declares a mild war on the Commonwealth directed also at educating public opinion. Government and says that in the straits in The people themselves will get far greater which the States now find themselves the satisfaction and benefit from a federal Premiers should get together so that they system that is truly federal than from a can present a common front at the next federal system that has gradually but de­ Premiers' conference with the Common­ finitely taken over the State parliaments. I wealth Government, or in any representa­ refer the House to a speech I made as the ti()J!lS they may make to the Common­ member for Manly in April, 1946, when I wealth. Discussion between the Common­ was a new member of this House. I shall wealth Government and the Premiers has quote from page 3072 of Hansard to indi­ been taking place regularly over the years cate that even in 1946 some of us felt that and particularly in ·the straitened circum­ the situation then was bad and was likely stances of the States over the past twenty­ to become worse. The occasion was the odd years the States have had to retire debate on the Hospital Benefits Agreement defeated by the overwhelming strength of Bill, which the House was asked to adopt the Commonwealth, which has told them in order to give effect to the Common­ -not so politely-that as the Common­ wealth's offer of a grant of six shillings a wealth holds the purse strings the Sta·tes day for hospital finances. I then said: must do as they are jolly well told. I quote from the Melbourne Argus of 23rd The word "grant" requires the most careful examination. It seems that because Canberra January, 1946, in which the Prime Minis­ is a remote place, payments made by the Fed­ ter, the Rt Hon. J. B. Chifley, is reported to eral Treasury are regarded as manna from have told the State Premiers that single heaven. "Let the Commonwealth Government Commonwealth income tax would be con­ pay," seems to be a very common complaint and a very common. plea. If something in tinued indefinitely and that the unanimous New South Wales IS not too flush in its objections were all nonsense. finances, the person in charge can say, "We 748 Commonwealth-State [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations

will put it right quite easily by getting the What I said and foresaw then was true Commonwealth Government to make us a and good prophecy. Clearly it seems that the grant," and they throw their hats up with pleasure when the Commonwealth Government State governments are. continuing to the finally makes the grant. I understand from stage when they wiU be merely administra­ the Minister's. speech that he thinks this House tive in their responsibilities-not delibera­ should be jubilant because our hospital worries tive and decisive. The sovereignty of the are forever over. The Commonwealth is going to make us a grant. That is very poor national States is being whittled away. The honour­ psychology. The people are being lulled into able member for Wyong should have ad­ a false sense of economic security by the mitted that he has certain responsibilities as remoteness of Canberra and the fact that they a member of Parliament in New South do not appreciate that if the Commonwealth grants the taxpayer pays. That fact is worthy Wales: he should have joined the mover of of reiteration, because I do not think that the the motion in a concerted effort by this Par­ Government is permitting the general public liament here assembled to say to the people to realise that this so-called benefit to patients of Australia that it is about time we reverted in hospitals is merely a transference from them as taxpayers to them as hospital patients. to the principles of a federal system. I have been a federalist all my life. I have even Later on I said: gone so far as to regret greatly the fact The most unfortunate part of the bill is its that the concept of greatness was brought tendency to cause State Parliamentary responsi­ into our legislative consciousness only after bility to go farther and farther down-hill. We the statute of federation of the United have now reached the stage where agreements are being forced upon State Premiers by the States. Prime Minister who holds the purse-strings and where the State Premiers have reluctantly If only the Tudor sovereigns had had a and apologetically to approach their Parlia­ federal rather than a centralist concept the ments for ratification of these agreements. course of our history would have been We are the sovereign body charged under the changed. We would then have had a fed­ constitution to govern the affairs of this State. eration of the British Isles rather than a Mr Alex Mair, a former Premier and union of England, Scotland and Ireland. Leader of the State Opposition, then inter­ National parliaments there with a federal posed the remark: "We are only a half­ parliament at Windsor would have avoided sovereign now." I said that we had been all sorts of troubles and set the pattern for reduced to a half-sovereign and it would future development. We would then have not be long-- been able to deal with the objections that American colonists had to certain events. Mr SouTHEE: On a point of order. I Unfortunately the concept of federalism think this could be classified as tedious did not exist in the monarchist Great repetition. This has already been given to Britain of the eighteenth century and the the House by the honourable member many objections of the colonists in North America years ago. He is now giving it over again. culminated in the American war of inde­ Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am afraid I can­ pendence in the late 1700's. All honourable not uphold the point that something said members are aware of the dramatic effect by the honourable members years ago is it had on the course of world hisrory. tedious repetition. What is meant in the standing orders is tedious repetition in the There was no thought of a federal con­ current debate. cept in the early days of Australia's devel­ opment: it is to the credit of the British Mr DARBY: I said: people in Australia that in the latter part of We have been reduced to a half-sovereign and it will not be long before we will become the nineteenth century a federal concept was merely paper currency. This Parliament was born. This was crystallized in 1901, when not fully cognisant of that fact when it per­ mitted uniform taxation to take place. Unless federation in this country gave to the we show in no uncertain terms that we object world a document that was recognized at to the subordination of this State to the Com­ the time as the finest instrument of a monwealth, we shall soon find ourselves with only administrative powers. federal system that man had devised. Th.is Commonwealth-State [10 SEPT., 1968] Financial Relations 749 stature should be maintained. Federa­ we were careful we would be reduced to tion gave the opportunity for people living paper currency. Members who oppose this in a distinct locality-a colony-New South motion, or who think up stupid, extenuat­ Wales and .the other States of Australia­ ing, flamboyant, unwieldy and unwork­ to work out their own destiny in consulta­ able amendments are depressing the insti­ tion and co-operation with other units in tution of Parliament. Worse •than that, the federal system which had the same they are depressing the democratic ambi­ kind of politica.l ambition, social deter­ tions of all people in New South Wales, in mination and cultural heritage. Federa­ Australia and throughout the world, be­ tion in Australia was a textbook reproduc­ cause if we surrender to the central govern­ tion of the thoughts of men like Professor ment powers that are greedily desired and Dicey who in the nineteenth century were even more avidly acquired by those in con­ thinking in terms of federalism as the one trol, then the dictatorship from afar-the solution to the problems of mankind, where­ centralized control from remote places­ by a country could look after its own will be the fate of all mankind. This is welfare and live in harmony with other what the socialists want, and that is why, nations. This was the time when LoJCd in their party political platform, they seek Tennyson was talking about the brother­ the abolition of State parliaments and the hood of man and federation of the world. Senate. In this way the socialists can at­ Sadly, however, as soon as the people who tain centralized control. It is not incon­ signed the document of federation had sistent that, if I am an anti-socialist and gone to the isolation of Canberra, they a liberal by conviction, I am also a State began to think in terms of taking still righter. I support any move for a State more power unto themselves. of New England or any other State that Since I have been in this Parliament I would like to work out its own salvation. have been annoyed and very angry when That is part of a political philosophy ; it members of Parliament in Canberra, who is not a part of political expediency or the represent the people no more than I do, claptrap in which the honourable member who have no more capacity and no more for Wyong engaged when he said that this responsibility, and who have far less in­ motion was so much humbug and hypo­ timate communication with the people crisy. themselves, should imagine that they are I declare that this motion is the most superior and have the right to tell us what sincere and forthright as well as the most to do, where to get off, and how much important one that has come before the money we can spend and on what we can House for many years. The honourable spend it. I have here a visiting card which member for Gloucester should be com­ I used when I went round the world re­ mended by every member of this House, cently. On it is printed "E. Douglas not only for his motion and his initiative Darby, M.P., Parliament House, Sydney, but also for the splendid quality of the N.S.W." It has some Chinese characters speech that he made and the care with on the back, for this is the card that I used which he assembled the essential facts. I when I was in China. I object to a federal shall not repeat the points that he made, member calling himself an M.P. and re­ but I say to the honourable member for garding me as an inferior member of Par­ Wyong that when he selects certain statistics liament-an M.L.A. I am a member of to prove a point, he should give credit parliament, and that is how I shall remain where credit is due and not quote figures so long as this is a parliament. While I out of context. If he is to debate a subject, am here I shall maintain the right of this he should give members an opportunity to Parliament of a sovereign State. weigh all sides of the question. It is true that the Premier, as Leader of the Opposi­ Even to the point of tedious repetition, I tion some years ago, was critical of moneys point out that in 1946 I said that we were losing our sovereignty. Of course, that were spent or not spent by the govern­ there were interjections, suggesting that we ment in power. Obviously he was critical were a 'half-sovereign. I said that unless of the fact that the government in power 750 Commonwealth-State [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations had money that it did not spend, and that having the audacity to say to us: "Here it was buying locomotives, for example, for is some money ; spend it on some roads, a delivery in order to get rid of money before university or a hospital, in this particular ·the end of the financial year. way"-leaving the State Government to look after all other circumstances. He was critical of the fact that the State of New South Wales did Let me examine the 1939 State Budget. not borrow all the money that it In that year the receipts for the Govern­ could have obtained, thus giving the ment of New South Wales were, first, a Commonwealth an excuse to short-sheet the contribution by the Commonwealth towards State on its allocation. But the honourable the payment of interest on the public debt member for Wyong did not give the Premier of nearly $6,000,000. Then there was credit, by giving his figures in percentages $34,000,000 of taxation, $3,000,000 land of revenue, or comparing the costs or infla­ revenue, some receipts for services ren­ tion at various times over a period ; further, dered, and some miscellaneous receipts. he did not make any comparison between They were our receipts in that year, but Commonwealth budget increases and New let us look at our receipts today. They South Wales budget increases, to show that show a financial tax reimbursement grant the Commonwealth budgets had increased of $275,000,000 in 1966-67, special finan­ much more than the New South Wales cial assistance grant from the Common­ budgets or the budgets of other States. He wealth Government, special drought assist­ merely wanted to make an attack on the ance, and so on. Who are the Common­ Premier of New South Wales. This is not wealth authorities to say to the States, ''If a debate in which such attacks should be you have had a drought, we will give you made. Perhaps they are appropriate in the some money"? burly-burly of political party debate, but New South Wales had a drought and the they bring this motion down from the high people of New South Wales were prepared plane on which it started. to make sacrifices in order to get through a difficult period. In spite of that, the The honourable member for Wyong, an Commonwealth Government told us how honest man, would be the first to admit that we were to spend money provided for th~ Premier, in his attempts to reverse the drought relief. The Commonwealth said, process and to correct the errors of the "We will give you some money for drought previous Government, has managed to relief, and you will administer it for us". achieve an increased formula for loan allo­ The Commonwealth also made grants to cations, with an increase of $2,000,000 help solve budgetary problems due to every year. This is only a breakthrough. drought. Then we had our own taxation, Unfortunately, the Premier had to come land revenue, and receipts for services ren­ backJ and report to the people. of New dered. South Wales that, although he had achieved something, he was still a loser because the On page 26 of the budget papers for Commonwealth Government had said to 1967-68 under the heading "General Mis­ him, in effect: "We are going to bend very cellaneous Receipts" one finds the items ''Payment by Oommonwealth under slowly indeed. In fact, the bending is only National Health Act, 1953, as amended­ a concession to quieten you, perhaps. Our Hospital Benefits, $1,164,000; Payment by intention is to gain more and more power Commonwealth under Tuberculosis Act, over the Government of New South Wales 1945, as amended, $4,370,000; Payment as time goes on." My contribution to this by Commonwealth under National Health debate is to say to the Commonwealth: Act, 1953, as amended-Pharmaceutical Stop giving us specific money for us to Benefits, $5,775,000; Payment by Common­ wealth under State Grants (Water Re­ spend ; stop being as impertinent as you sources) Act, 1964, $61,100; Payment by have been, imagining that you have far Commonwealth under States Grants (Men­ greater deliberative powers than we have on tal Health Institutions) Act, 1964, how public money should be spent ; stop $300,000". The federal Government will Mr. Darby] Commonwealth-State [10 SEPT., 1968] Financial Relations 751 not trust the State to run its own mental Education has a system of priorities to hospitals. The Commonwealth authorities work out, but he has to say to himself: say, "If you want to build a new mental "The Commonwealth Government has inter­ hospital we will give you some money, but fered and made specific grants for certain you must' use it on our terms. " . I t m~y purposes. I must try to work in with be true that the High Court of Austraha them". Does that make him a man proud has ruled that the Commonwealth has in­ of his achievement, or any more efficient? definite and indeterminate powers to make Does that duplication give the taX'payer grants for whatever purpose it .choo~es, better value for his money? but that ,certainly was not the mtentton Another entry in the last State Budget of the framers of the Constitution. Did is "Recoupment from Commonwealth of they intend the Commonwealth Govern­ Administration Expenses in respect of mig­ ment to have power to make a grant to rant education and the Commonwealth New South Wales to enable it to build a Scholarship Scheme, $350,000". New South bridge across Manly creek, to say what Wales has been looking after migrants from sort of a bridge should be built and to use time immemorial. It has an immigration de­ the State as an administering authority? partment available to absorb and to assist The members of the Opposition who were migrants as they come here. But the so vocal in support of the honourable Commonwealth Government bas put in its member for Wyong are now realizing that oar, and is doing so at the taxpayer's ex­ he made one of the worst speeches in the pense, apart altogether from breaking history of this Parliament. down our federal system. The next entry is "Contribution by Commonwealth in re­ Mr R. J. KELLY: That was before you spect of Cattle Tick Eradication and Con­ started. trol, $288,000". That is followed by "Con­ tribution by Commonwealth in respect of Mr DARBY: No, I am making one of Emergency Housekeeping Services, the best speeches. That is why you are $11,800", and so on. We now have a listening. Otherwise, you would have walked out long ago. I shall go on reading federal Minister for Education, as if it from the budget papers of 1967-68. "Pay­ would not be far more effective for the ment by Commonwealth under States States to attend to any education services Grants (Advanced Education) Act, 1967, in Commonwealth territories, as was origin­ $500,000". The Teachers Federation for ally done .. many years has been asking that the Com­ Mr MoRRIS: The Commonwealth Minis­ monwealth should vote money for the ter for Education has now called a con­ States specifica.Uy to use on education. My ference to discuss school curriculums. answer to them was simple. Is it really thought that a member of the Common­ Mr DARBY: Yes, and what impertin­ wealth Parliament, elected on a federal· ence. The Commonwealth Government franchise, would have more cognisance of has a big enough job to do as it is. One the relative values of education than a of its tasks is to maintain a stable price State member elected by the same people level throughout the whole of the Com­ on smaller boundaries? Is it reaUy thought monwealth. that the honourable member for Manly would have less regard for the relative Mr PETERSEN: It has failed pretty badly merits of education services than would in its promise to put value back in the his federal colleague, the member for pound. Warringah, Mr St John? Do the teachers believe that to be the case? They cannot Mr DARBY: Yes, and I will tell you give me an answer, yet they go on demand­ one of the reasons why, constitutionally, it ing federal money for specific grants for education without realizing, I trust, that will continue to fail. When wages go up at the same time they are tending to destroy the Commonwealth Government receives our federal system. Our Minister for more in income tax because everybody is 752 Commonwealth-State [ASSEMBLY] Financial Relations in a higher tax bracket. The Commonwealth High Court decision without the people Government does not reduce the lower having an opportunity to express their view limit of taxation as wages increase ; it never about what should be done. This happened has, no matter what party was in power. despite the fact that in 1944 they said So the Commonwealth finds itself with a they :would not agree to the Common­ lot more money to spend. It is to the Com­ wealth having socialist powers that a Labor monwealth's advantage when wages rise: government of New South Wales sought revenue is buoyant, and there is nothing for it. A Labor government of this State, to spend it on because the Commonwealth by a vote in this House, decided to transfer does not pay wages as the State does. When those fourteen powers to the federal Gov­ wages rise, the poor States have all the ernment. Despite all of that, I think the railwaymen, schoolteachers, policemen, time has now arrived when the people of nurses and others to look after. New South Wales will say that they have been bemused with the glamour of Can­ Mr R. J. KELLY: And politicians. berra over the years but now see through the pall of smoke. Mr DARBY: The honourable member The people of this State are not the only is a flippant interpolator. If only he could people in this world who are saying that say something witty or wise, it would help centralism is no good. There are indepen­ so much. All that the honourable member dent movements in Wales, Scotland, and can do is utter banalities and every plati­ Czechoslovakia, where people are striving tude except the famous one to which Sir Winston Churchill made reference, which to be freed from centralized control. There I shall tell him afterwards as it is not quite has been a lot of trouble in Yugoslavia where national groups in Montenegm, Mace­ parliamentary. It is the States that have donia, Croatia, Hercegovina, Bosnia, and to pay the price of an increase in wages, Slovenia people are saying they want greater and they get only a modicum of the in­ independence for so-called autonomous creased taxation. So the whole point of regions. They want to be freer of domina­ the operations of a State government should be to control inflation, as this would tion by Belgrade. The people of Canada have staged provincial revolts against •the enable it to govern better. With the Com­ domination of Ottawa. The statistics of the monwealth Government, the greater the in­ Canadian problem have been adequately flation, the easier it is to govern. This en­ demic weakness in federal-State relation­ referred to by the honourable member for Gloucester. The same sort of thing is hap­ ships is a major cause of the inflation that pening in Brazil, where the states are revolt­ has taken place over the years. The Com­ ing against domination. This trend is world monwealth Government has many respon­ wide. The people of New South Wales have sibilities apart from monetary control. It been slower than those in other parts of the has responsibilities for customs, external .world to realize what was happening to trade and extemal affairs. These pre­ them, and it is about time we got rid of sent tremendous problems. Yet the Com­ centralization by Canberra. I regard this monwealth Government has the impertin­ motion not only as being timely and ence to think that it can use the stately necessary to enable the Government to halls of Canberra to decide what sort of a carry out its commitments and responsi­ high school we should build in New South bilities-- Wales. It cannot be done. When this motion is carried it will give the people Mr L. B. KELLY: The Government is of Australia a new feeling, a new recogni­ covering up its faults. tion that the federal system has not been working too well. Mr DARBY: --with due regard ·to any asinine statements that may come from The Commonwealth Government has members of the Opposition~but also to control of most government money, a give expression to a feeling of loss of power acquired by a trick in 1942. It sovereignty, and, overriding it all, to give took advantage of a war situation and· a a New South Wales interpretation to a Financial Relations [10 SEPT., 1968] Softwood Bill 753 nationalism that is sweeping the whole of monweaHh and of the States who are con­ the world, civilized and uncivilized. People cerned with forestry. The council recom­ living in a community have some kind of mended that the rate of softwood forestry common bond and heritage to work out planting in Australia should be increased their own salvation without domination or to an average of 75,000 acres a year during control by some central authority. the next thirty-five years. However, this will I should like to conclude my remMks by fall far short of what is required by the replying to the honourable member for turn of the century. I support what the Wyong, who said the Government was using Minister for Conservation did when he went this motion as a smokescreen to excuse its to Canberra and asked for a full grant for own shortcomings. this softwood planting programme. Mr L. B. KELLY: We wiH see, in a Members will notice that the Softwood couple of weeks. Forestry Agreement provides for the repay­ ment by the State to the Commonwealth of Mr DARBY: T-hat is a canard thrown moneys advanced and used in carrying out at the Government by people who are the programme, such payments to com­ beaten by the logic and commonsense of mence not later than eleven years after they the appropriate public approbation to were advanced. Though much can be gained which this motion is entitled. It is .true by the States under this agreement, they that the Premier of New South Wales finds stand to lose in the six years between the it difficult to balance his budget and to eleventh year from planting and the seven­ govern this State with the finances teenth year when the timber becomes re­ meagrely and miserly aliocated by the venue producing. I cannot understand why Commonwealth Government. The motion the advisers to the Commonwealth Minister is a genuine and sincere attempt to awaken should state that there would be some re­ public conscience and to perform one ·of turn within the first eleven years. Anyone the most important functions that this who has had anything to do with softwood Parliament must do, something which will forestry knows that it takes about sixteen crystaHze my own personal wish for the years before the first cut can be made restoration of State rights and dignity since through the forest and it can become re­ I .came into this House. venue-producing. Therefore, I cannot un­ Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr derstand why the State is expected to start Petersen. to meet its commitment after eleven years. The fact that the State will have to meet Government business called on in accord­ this account detracts from much that is good ance with sessional order. in the bill. [Mr Speaker left the chair at 5.54 p.m. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m.] Everyone knows that Australia must in­ crease its timber production and that, in­ deed, the world is facing a timber shortage. SOFTWOOD FORESTRY AGREEMENT The United States of America is already im­ BILL porting ·timber. As recently as last year a SECOND READING member of am American company sought Debate resumed (from 29th August, vide my help to meet the Minister for Conserva­ page 712) on motion by Mr Jack Beale: tion so that he ·could ascertain what timber That this bill be now read a second time. lands were available in Australia where his company could grow timber that would be Mr MAUGER (Monaro) [7.31]: I sup­ ready for production in about twenty-five port the bill, with reservations. The agree­ years' time. This company has capital of ment sets out a programme of proposed an­ about six billion dollars, and it can foresee nual plantings that might be made during the five years that commenced in July, that by the ·turn of the century the United 1966, in implementation of a recommenda­ States of America will not be able to satisfy tion of the Australian Forestry Council, its own timber requirements, and it is look­ constituted by the Ministers of the Com- ing for places outside America where it may 48 754 Softwood Forestry [ASSEMBLY] Agreement Bill start to grow timber. The world timber When one considers that three men are shortage was further proved when repre­ employed for every 100 acres of sof,twood, s.entatives from Japan came to Australia this increase will support 171 men, and the to try to buy land, or to be given land, on increased population will probably be about which they may grow timber that could be 350 people. taken from this country for the manufacture of pulp and paper pulp required in Japan. The continual planting of radiata pine is All this shows that softwood is much needed all very well, but it is necessary to get the and ,that Australia should have a greater co-operation of the architects and builders planting programme than the Common­ of New South Wales, and this is very wealth Government has allowed the States difficult. They seem to regard radiata pine, to undertake. or softwood, as case timber. However, the The annual imports of forest products suitability of this timber for building pur­ poses is soon appreciated when one realizes into Australia are exceeded only by crude oil, so one must give due regard to the vast that more than 100,000 homes in New amount of timber imported to this country. Zealand have been framed entirely with radiata pine and that thousands of Aus­ It is pleasing to note that the Australian Forestry Council has recommended that the tralians are living in homes that have a big planting of softwood should be increased radiata pine content. When a prospective from 40,000 acres to 75,000 acres a year, homeowner approaches an architect or a but I hope that this is the programme for builder in New South Wales and suggests the first ten years only and that when the that radiata pine be used, he is told it will Ministers again meet the planting pro­ not be recommended in any circumstances. gramme will be increased to something like A lot of promotion of the product is needed 175,000 acres a year. As I have said, the if the State is to go in for this extensive programme proposed in the bill falls far growing of radiata pine, to convince archi­ short of our target, and I should like to tects and builders that it is the timber see plantings increased in suitable areas to that should be used for homebuilding. about 100,000 or 150,000 acres a year, The improvement in glued laminations thereby supporting a paper pulp industry. overseas must surely give radiata pine much If softwood plantings can increase to that greater opportunities for use in Australia. extent, particularly in my area where Industries . overseas, realizing that radiata radiata pine grows fast-it is probably the pine is a fast-growing timber, with the first best area in the State for growing radiata cut of the forest in sixteen years and full pine-we can be assured that within about production in twenty-five to thirty years, twenty years a very good paper pulp compared with seventy-five to eighty years industry can be established, employing. for some other timbers, have been many men and encouraging decentralization encouraged to implement every known of industry in areas that are suitable for method to improve the standard of radiata this timber. pine laminations, and it is fairly obvious In the past two years since this agree­ that if the uses to which these laminations ment commenced, the planting of softwood can be put are made widely known, before in new areas, particularly in the South the turn of the century they will play a big Coast forestry area, including the Talla­ part in building. ganda Shire and the Bombala and Monaro districts, has increased from 362 acres in Already I know of a church, built at 1966-67, for an expenditure of $94,000, to Mount Gambier, which has a radiata pine 561 acres in 1967-68 for an expenditure of laminated beam spanning a distance of $209,000. The areas to be planted in the 46 feet. There are many other examples next three years are as follows: 1968-69, of large span beams of a complex shape to be seen in many radiata pine mills in 900 acres, $390,000; 1969'-70, 1,500 acres, South Australia and Victoria. Radiata can $450,000; 1970-71, 2,400 acres, $500,000. be expected to gain ground in such appli­ The totals over the five years are 5,723 cations as internal frames for furniture, acres for an expenditure of $1,643,000. paneiiing, flooring which is to be covered, Mr Mauger] Softwood Forestry [10 SEPT., 1968) Agreement Bill 755 studs, and roof trusses. Radiata pine still up planting this year, we can accumulate faces the problem of its industri~l image our quota and add it to next year's plant­ as box timber and a lack of co-operation ing. The drought has taken a severe toll by the building fraternity. One can expect of everything in the Monaro electorate. I that, with the Commonwealth loan, we have much pleasure in supporting the bill should be making a bold attempt to bridge and especially that part of the agreement the gap between supply and demand. In which allows us to plant more next year my electorate I have a very active body to make up for what we have not been able in rhe Bibbenluke and Bombala ·councils to plant this year. pressing the Minister of Justice to build in the area a prison farm, with the sole Mr COWAN (Oxley) [7.44]: I am very idea of planting radiata pine. They believe pleased to be associated with the bill, which that in about twenty-five years, when many is most important in Commonwealth-State thousand acres of this pine have been relations. It is nice to know that we have grown, the place wiil be self-supporting arrived at an agreement with the Com­ and of great assistance to the Govern­ monwealth under which it will give financial ment in reducing its annual import bill. support to our softwoods programme. We have a tremendous area of land and it is To see the advantages of radiata one very important to use more of it for grow­ should go to South Australia or New ing softwoods. We talk about pasture im­ Zealand. We are ten years behind New provement and many other fields that Zealand in radiata growth. New Zealand should be given greater attention, but I am has realized that this is a wonderful timber, sure that nothing would give a greater re­ has gone ahead.by leaps and bounds and turn, from a State and from a national point will export 80 pe.r cent of its radiata pine of view, than timbergrowing. to Australia. Many people would like us to believe that radiata is a timber that We have arrived at the stage at which will never be used in industry and most of we are urgently dependent upon growing our builders will take a lot of convincing timber quickly. Hardwoods are slower of its merits. However, I am very happy growing timbers, and we are quickly cutting to say that we have a Monterey pine them out. We need some plan to replace promotion committee in the State, the mem­ those forests with trees that we can cut out bers of which are using every possible and replace quickly, and thereby not de­ method to increase the use of radiata pine plete the State's timber resources. The hon­ and to meet every known manu£a,cturers' ourable member for Monaro said that it is requirement, such as preservation, the glue­ only a matter of time, the way we are cut­ ing of laminations and finger-jointing. The ting them out at present, before we shall committee intends to show New South Wales have severely depleted our forests. As the that something can be done with this tim­ Minister said the other day in the debate ber, which is a good building wood. In the on the motion for the adoption of the years to come builde•rs will approve the Address in Reply, we shall, by ·the year use of radiata in their building programmes 2000, be spending up to $650,000,000 a and wiU buy it. year on importing timber into Australia. Mr CowAN: Is a serious drought in your Naturally, I am interested in this in­ district affecting the growth? dustry; by 1975, 20 per cent of the State's Mr MAUGER: The drought is one of softwoods plantings will be very close to the most tragic that I have ever come the electorate of Oxley-in fact will be in across. There is more green on the floor the watershed of the Manning River. I of this House than there is in the whole know personally what a wonderful thing of the electorate. When the Minister this is going to be, first, for use of the soil, made his second-reading speech on the bill he said that the drought had put us behind and second, for the employment of labour in our growth of radiata. A clause in the resources within the district. I do not think agreement provides that if we do not take ·that we appreciate the importance of timber 756 Softwood Forestry [ASSEMBLY] Agreement Bill to the income of country towns and dis­ plantings in Australia. The Minister is for­ tricts. I represent largely a dairying elec­ tunate in having in the Forestry Commis­ torate, but in the Hastings district, which is sion, from the commissioner down, a splen­ recognized as one of the most important did team of men who are playing a most hardwood and softwood districts of the important part in timber research and State, the wages paid to about 910 people forestry matters generally. I am pleased to directly employed in the timber industry be able to support this bill. amount to $2,500,000 annually. Sales of timber alone-speaking of softwoods, poles Mr FERGUSON (Merrylands) [7.51]: I and even down to posts and fencing support the ratification of the softwood planting agreement between the Common­ materials~amount to over $6,000,000 a year. This has 'tremendous repercussions wealth and the State. Unfortunately, I was upon the local economy and upon the social unable to be present in the House when the and industrial life of our country towns and Minister delivered his second-reading speech districts. That is why this bill is most im­ on this bill. However, I have since bad an portant to New South Wales. opportunity to read it in Hansard. Although I appreciate that the Minister must be most Every day in this House we speak about gratified at being able to introduce a bill the importance of building up rural indus­ like this one, I must say after perusing his [ries and in my view timber ranks very speech that he is perhaps not the most high in importance among our rural indus­ modest member of this Parliament. From tries. This is why I believe that we should the report of his speech one could be for­ devote all possible financial resources at given for thinking that single-handed the our command, together with loans that we Minister had convinced the Commonwealth can get from the Commonwealth, to plant­ that this softwood planting agreement ing trees on every suitable acre of land that should be implemented. Nonetheless, I we can get. The Minister for Conservation think the Minister has grounds for feeling knows that I am making representations to gratified at being able to introduce this him for planting a large area of land in the agreement, which will be most important Hastings area, at Wauchope. This area, for the nation, the country areas of New extending from 100,000 to 150,000 acres, is South Wales and the State as a whole. not growing very good timber at present, but is producing what we in the country re­ During the last Parliament I, along with gard as a scrubby kind of timber. This area the Minister and other members of this could actually be used for the growing of Parliament from the Labor Party, the Lib­ softwoods, which would be a tremendous eral Party and the Country Party and the benefit to the Hastings district, to the coast independent member for Blue Mount­ and to New South Wales generally. tains-he was then the honourable member for Hartley-served on a select committee Turning to decentralization I remind the that had an opportunity to examine forestry House that the honourable member for matters in great detail, including the pro­ Monaro said that one person is employed on posed terms of the agreement covered by every 30 acres of land. If, in the Manning this bill. The members of the select com­ Valley alone, 150,000 acres are to be plant­ mittee were convinced that the agreement ed, this will mean that approximately ninety would be a revolutionary step towards ad­ people will be employed for the 3,000 acres vancing the interests of this State and the that are scheduled by the year 1975. Such nation. a programme would have important effect I should like to take this opportunity to upon the work force of any community. In pay a tribute to my colleagues on both sides concluding, I pay a tribute to the Minister of the House who served on the select com­ who, in a conscientious manner, has at­ mittee. We proved that members of Parlia­ tacked the problems of softwood growing ment, irrespective of their politics, are able throughout the State. Under the agreement to work harmoniously on important issues with the Commonwealth, it is our respons­ such as this which are in the interest of the ibility to plant one-third of all softwood State. I feel that the report brought down Mr Cowan] Softwood Forestry [10 SEPT., 1968] Agreement Bill 757 by the select committee is important be­ architects, and others, the select committee cause of its effect on forestry, on the people made a specific recommendation that a in country areas, and on the city dwellers percentage of Douglas fir planting be in­ who use timber. I sincerely hope that the corporated in the softwood planting pro­ Minister and the Government will take gramme. It has been proved conclusively action during the life of this Parliament to by the Forestry Commission that Douglas implement a number of the committee's fir can be planted and grown successfully recommendations. and that it gives a substantial yield. It can be an economic proposition. The members of the select committee were fortunate in hearing evidence from all Much of Australia's big annual bill in sections of the timber industry, from rural importing timber from the United States of workers who are engaged in the forests, and America and Canada is spent on Douglas from forestry officers themselves. I take fir. Irrespective of what the Forestry Com­ ·this opportunity to pay a tribute to the offi­ mission says of or what the promoters of cers of the Forestry Commission, who come radiata pine might claim, the building in­ under the jurisdiction of the Minister. dustry has a resistance-some might say a These men, many of whom gave evidence prejudice-to radiata pine. I disagree before the committee, were most courteous as to its being prejudice. From prac­ and displayed a great interest in their work. tical experience in the building industry They are indeed a dedicated group of men I know that radiata pine cannot sup­ engaged in silviculture and other forestry plant Dougla:s fir for many construc­ activities. When the select committee was tion tasks. Therefore, again I ask the considering the proposed sof·twood agree­ Minister to consider the recommenda­ ment it took the opportunity of calling evi­ tions of the select committ~; of which he dence from a large number of people. was a member, on the planting of Douglas Among them was Mr Jim Cooper who, on fir and to ensure that as this agreement goes behalf of the trade-union movement, gave forward and the planting programme is put evidence that I feel had a profound effect into effect, a percentage of Douglas fir is upon the members of the select commit­ planted to meet the requirements of the ·tee, an effect that is reflected in the com­ building industry of this State. I should mittee's recommendations to the Govern­ like the Minister for Public Works to ensure ment and this Parliament. that his department, which is one of the main users of building materials, will specify The agreement provides for a certain in its contracts that Douglas fir shall be amount of softwood to be planted each used for certain purposes. If he did, he year in each State of the Commonwealth. would help to ensure that this species is The committee found that great emphasis included in the softwood planting pro­ was being placed by the Forestry Commis­ gramme. sion on the planting of pinus radiata, which While dealing with the economics of the is better known in the building industry as softwood planting programme drawn up by radiata pine. Virtually all other softwood the Forestry Commission it is as well that species were being ignored because radiata I should offer certain criticisms of it. pine, being a quick growth timber, brings Radiata pine cannot be grown as economic­ a comparatively rapid return to the ally on the north coast of this State as it Forestry Commission. In other words, it can in the belt extending from Bathurst and represents good, sound business. We on Orange across in a southerly direction. the committee considered that the commis­ Economically this is the best part of the sion was tending to ignore some valid State in which to plant this timber species. criticisms by architects, builders, carpenters The Parliament, in addition to having an and other workers in the building industry. economic responsibility to the com­ Taking into account some of the evidence munity, has a social responsibility to the presented by Mr Jim Cooper on behalf of people as well. I favour the softwood the La:bor Council of New South Wales, planting programme that has been recom­ and in view of the criticism of builders, mended by the Forestry Commi~sion, 758 Softwood Forestry [ASSEMBLY] Agreement Bill especially the recommendation that it be I hope that the Minister again looks at grown north of the belt where radiata pine the report of the select committee and has may be grown to the best economic hoop pine planted at Kyogle. It is indeed advantage. a pleasure for me to support the bill. The agreement contained in it is in the best in­ Although the financial return from the terests of country people and will give planting of this species in some of these stimulus to employment. It is in the best areas may not be as good as in the belt I interests of 'the city folk as it will ensure have indicated, the social consequences are timber supplies for ,the future. The agree­ tremendously important. The members of ment is certainly in the best interests of the the select committee saw the social prob­ State and as far as the Commonwealth goes, lems posed in derelict timber towns in areas any time that we can reduce the bill for where hardwood had been cut out or al· imported timbers we should not hesitate most cut out. I understand that it takes to do so. For those reasons I support the about eighty years to grow hardwood trees bill. from which an economic return can be obtained. This is too long for the timber Mr HOUGH (Wollongong) [8.02]: I towns of the North Coast to wait. I under· support the motion which ratifies the Com­ stand that it takes about twenty-four years monwealth-State agreement to develop the for a quick economic return from the plant­ planting of softwood. I recall not long ago ing of radiata pine. Therefore, in the we spoke of a prospective build up of interest of the community of the small 25,000 acres per annum leading to a total North Coast country towns I support the of 1,000,000 acres of plantation. The agree­ Forestry Commission's radiata pine planting ment provides for a building up to 75,000 programme, irrespective of the economic acres per annum so that in a period of aspect. We must agree that when man thirty-five years we will be able to come to starts to replant timber, looking at the grips with the problem of timber needs in economic aspe,ct be may decide not to re­ Australia. This will be of tremendous plant the same species in the a,rea. Never­ economic advantage to Australia. The pro­ theless we have a responsibility to the North gramme for increasing plantings is the only Coast. The Forestry Commission will plant way to overcome our serious shortage of radiata pine on the North Coast and we timber which necessitates imports from agree with the proposal. overseas. The other aspect of tree planting to which As the years go by Australia must con­ I wish to refer concerns Kyogle. I know tinue to use more and more timber. Ref­ that the honourable member for Lismore erence has been made to the need to plant will agree with what I am about to say. The radiata pine. The fact that trimmings and parliamentary select committee when exam­ pulping logs from these timber stands are ining the timber planting programme of the available after perhaps thirteen years and Forestry Commission found that the com­ certainly within twenty years has militated mission was neglecting the planting of hoop against the plantation of other passable spe­ pine-again on the ground of economics. cies, but I should like to emphasize that we In Queensland hoop pine is being planted ought to bear in mind that a variety of by ,the thousands of acres, though this may timber needs must be met. Douglas fir is a he because it is the only softwood species well-known timber, much appreciated by all that will grow there. Hoop pine at Kyogle those who work it. I feel sure that the does not give an adequate return compared Forestry Commission should have this in with radiata pine, but Kyogle is a timber mind. and dairy town and the native hardwood The most important matter that I want timber has been cut out. Because of that to emphasize in this debate is the need for the select committee recommended that the planting of forests, wherever practic­ hoop pine be planted at Kyogle. An inspec­ able, handy to the point of use. It seems tion of the area and evidence from officers of the commission revealed that an econo­ that an area of 100,000 acres offers reason­ mic return could be provided. able support for a mill to be conducted on Mr Ferguson] Softwood Forestry [10 SEPT., 1968] Agreement Bill 759 an economic basis. Transport is one of the This is big business but we need to ap­ vital costs in the handling of timber. preciate ·that countries such as Japan, re­ [Quorum formed.] Since Parliament re­ ferred to by the honourable member for assembled in this new session, I have Murrumbidgee, have been able to set a observed particularly the indifference of the fine example of what can be done in a Opposition to the conduct of Parliament. small country. Wha,t can be done in Japan Only one member was in the House on can be bettered here. While we talk of that side, and I am mindful of the fact an ultimate of 3,000,000 acres under plan­ that on no less than five occasions when tation by the year 2000, it has been re­ Opposition members had the call to speak vealed that Japan has 25,000,000 acres on various issues, the Opposition has under cultivation and is increasing the acre­ moved the adjournment of the debate. This age by 1,000,000 a year. afternoon, prior to the dinner adjournment, On referring to the schedule of the bill after the Opposition had attempted to delay I find that in New South Wales the acreage the honourable member for Gloucester of 12,500 in 1967 is to be built up to a when he was advancing his arguments in planting of 19,600 acres in 1971. This pro­ support of his motion, the honourable mem­ gressive building-up, from 12,500 acres in ber for Kembla moved the adjournment of 1967, to 16,000 acres in 1968, 17,500 acres the debate so that the Opposition would in 1969, 18,300 acres in 1970, and 19,600 not have a second speaker in the debate acres in 1971, will enable New South Wales today. We get used to these tactics. to play a useful part in our national produc­ tion, as well as helping us to overcome the Kiln drying is one operation that can need for imports. To understand best what be undertaken where a mill is established, might be done, one ought to think in terms especially at the point of use of the timber. of the fibre board mill at Raymond Terrace, Wollongong would be an ideal site for such where there has been considerable expan­ a plant. With a prospective population of sion since the Government came to office. 200,000, in a couple of years and 350,000 In one year, 100,000,000 square feet of in the not too distant future, Wollongong's fibre board was manufactured and 100,000 demand for timber will rapidly increase and tons of material used. There are 358 men I am confident that some of the land avail­ in employment at the mill, and eighty men able on the tablelands handy to Wollon­ are engaged in cutting and hauling timber to gong could be used for ,the development of the mill. These mills could be placed at forests. Today, 30 per cent of timber used strategic positions throughout New South in New South Wales is imported. We know Wales: one such place would be Wollon­ that the Australia-New Zealand free trade gong. The firm to which I have referred agreement has given advantages to New has five mills in operation. Given encour­ Zealand in sending timber here. Let us see agement, they would be prepared to meet what the timber industry means to the com­ the spiralling market. Others would be pre­ munity. The figures of the Bureau of Cen­ pared to come into it. sus and Statistics show that in 1965-66 728 mills were engaged in log production, The Australian picture has been one of 28 in plywood production and 134 in box­ reasonable growth. In 1930 the growth of case manufacture. The number of persons softwoods was on a small scale, but there employed in log production was 8,354, com­ has been a transformation since 1945-46 pared with 1,505 in plywood production when 19,400,000 super feet were produced and 1,212 in box-case production. The and 500,000 super feet were exported. In figures of salaries paid showed $18,300,000 1966-67, 352,400,000 super feet were pro­ in log production, $3,500,000 in ply pro­ duced-an increase of 333,000,000 super duction and $2,470,000 in box-case manu­ feet in twenty-one years. This shows that facture. Output was valued at $87,280,000 something has been done. It is not good for log production, $12,210,000 for ply, enough to think in terms of being able to and $8,240,000 for box-case production, match only two-thirds of the need in New giving a total output of $197,730,000 in South Wales. I urge the Government, in . timber production for the year 1965-1966. carrying out this agreement, to perform to 760 Softwood Forestry [ASSEMBLY] Agreement Bill the point where New South Wales can save the area. They speak with shooters, trying the cost of imports. I emphasize that tech­ to explain the use of firearms and persuad­ nically this is the best means of expanding ing them to go to the Bellambi firing range local industry: it is one of the best forms where they can get instructions in the use of decentralization. My plea is for pro­ of firearms at an established club. They perly-planned forests which will reduce the act as rangers for the Wollongong council fire hazard. I have continually referred to and landowners, and in all, set a fine the fire hazard on the western side and .to example to the people in their sacrificial the full extent of the thirty-odd miles of the duty in such a good cause. As an instance city of Greater Wollongong. Wherever tim­ of their hard work I can give the times ber and housing are in proximity there is they worked one weekend about three grave risk to the community. weeks ago. On Friday night they were called out for four hours. On Saturday I refer to the prospective increase in they were on routine work for seven hours population of Wollongong. At this stage its and were called back on Saturday night 170,000 residents are endangered by the fire for about five hours. They did routine work hazard by reason of the willy-nilly growth on Sunday for seven hours and had t& of timber on the tablelands. One of the only fight a bushfire in that time. They were saving graces is that fire has to travel down­ called back for another five hours on Sun­ hill-which slows any forest fire-to come day night to fight a bushfire. They worked into the housing area along the coast. This their normal eight hours on the Monday, threat has been recognized by a small group and on Monday night they were called back of people who are keen to preserve natural ag:ain for another five hours to fight a bush­ growth. I pay tribute to the work they are fire. In that weekend they gave thirty-three doing. The Bulli Volunteer Bushfire Brigade hours of their own time to combat bush­ is obsessed with the need to preserve timber. fires. This is indeed a contribution to This group of fourteen young men has a national goodwill. truck which is used as a water wagon. They carry out bushfire protection activities every The planting of forests would ease some day of the week. Their concern is for wild­ of the burden of this firefighting by pro­ flowers and wildlife, as well as for timber. viding properly cared-for areas with They guard zealously an area of rain forest. forestry officers, adequate fire breaks, and Theirs is an example to the community, not all the services £acilitating the effective pre­ only of a personal sacrifice of their own servation of the bushland which we love to time but also of judgment of the real need see. Areas developed in this way will be­ to preserve everything that is worthwhile. come a tourist attraction and provide em­ Ten of the young men have their own Land­ ployment for a number of people. I appeal Rovers, which are well maintained, giving to the Government to pay heed to the the impression ·that this group has a large headlines which appear conspicuously in the financial backing to maintain such a fine papers from time to time. The Express of fleet of vehicles. Four of the young men 28th August carries the headline, "District assist the other drivers. When they are fire­ is Bushfire Tinderbox: Dry Season Dan­ fighting, their womenfolk drive the vehicles ger." Through recognition in the com­ and prepare food for them. They are set­ munity of the need for more timber and ting up a road grader to improve the roads the carrying out of this agreement with in the bush, thus giving them a better chance the Commonwealth Government there will to fulfil their obligations. be a new approach to the planting of tim­ ber in our area. This will lead to some The bushfire brigade is active to combat opportunities for employment, provision of the depredations of vandals who at the timber at cheaper rates without the expense weekend travel through the area and set of longer road haulage, and the proper fire to timber purely for the purpose of presentation of the area with all that might destruction. They are there, also, to guide be expected from the best possible utiliza­ and lecture hikers, telling them how to tion of labour in keeping down the fire conduct themselves when passing through hazard. Mr Hough] Softwood Forestry [10 SEPT., 1968] Agreement Bill 761

Mr SHEAHAN (Burrinjuck) [8.18]: ,costly to keep these areas clean. It is Representing as I do the richest timber­ pleasing to see .that plantings made in 1940 bearing country in the world, for both and 1941 are now showing growth rates native and imported varieties, and where almost comparable with the gmwth of pinus experiments are being carried out by the radiata. Snowy Mountains Authority to gmw locally a particular type of timber that is being Apart from red cedar and a few other imported for special uses, I support the bill. special species, hoop pine is the highest When I see something that meets with my royalty producing log in the State. There approval I do not waste any more time. is little doubt that, because of the form I commend the bill to the House. of the tree and the quality of the timber, this species will continue to demand a Mr DUNCAN (Lismore) [8.19]: I join r~lativeJy. higher royalty than other planta­ other members in welcoming a bill which tion spec1es. In fact, .to quote the words virtually confirms the Commonwealth and of the select committee, which made its State agreement in respect of future soft­ report to the Legislative Assembly on 29th wood plantings in New South Wales. I am November, 1967, evidence presented at sure there is no need for any honourable Kyogle indicated that hoop pine was the member to canvass the need for a vigorous major species being used in the Queens­ programme of reforestation. It is pleasing land softwood reforestation programme. to see that the bill provides in the first On 31st Mar,ch, 1966, Queensland had place the machinery to allow for loans from established 116,000 acres of softwood the Commonwealth to the States to carry plantings, of which hoop pine comprised out their part of the Commonwealth pro­ 57,000 acres. As the areas in Queensland gramme and to permit planting of an addi­ are close to the forest areas available in tional 75,000 acres a year in the next the Kyogle district, it is only natural that thirty-five years. Also, it provides for the these projects can be faithfully and vigor­ return by New South Wales to the Com­ ou~ly undertaken in .this part of New South monwealth rof money advanced and used in Wales. undertaking the programme. These returns When speaking of the development of are to commence not later than eleven years country areas in New South Wales, and after the money is lent to the State of New having in mind the Government pledge South Wales. of a balanced development, we must recog­ I appreciate the remarks made earlier nize the importance of reforestation pro­ in this debate by the honourable member grammes in the overall development of for Merrylands, who spoke of the need for our country regions. Too many rural areas plantings of hoop pine in the Lismore elec­ have been depopulating rapidly in past torate, in the area controlled by tthe Kyogle years ; indeed, for some years people bave Shire Council. I have in mind the Too­ been leaving •country areas with a rapidity numbar area, where the Minister for Con­ ·that is equalled only by the speed at servation is at present planning to build which payments on a hire-purchase .con­ the Toonumbar Dam. Although I realize tract seem to come around. Bricks and that the present programme for softwood mortar are only symbols of progress in plantings in the State does not include hoop country areas unless we are willing to put pine plantings in this area, I am sure value back into the soil. One way in which that the provisions of the bilJ give some value can be put back into the soil is by hope to the local people that their wishes vigorous reforestation programmes where will be fulfilled in the future. I had the suitable land and climatic conditions permit. pleasure of travelling with the select com­ The importance of the timber industry mittee ·that visited the Kyogle area to in­ to the Kyogle shire, and to the town of spect the hoop pine plantings that were Kyogle in parti.cular, is evidenced when one commenced there in 1939 but discontinued realizes that about 600 people are employed in 1953 because of the weed-growth prob­ in it. If this proportion of employment lems, especially lantana, which made it quite in the timber industry is to be maintained, 762 Softwood Forestry [ASSEMBLY] Agreement Bill we must undertake the necessary plantings For many years the Commonwealth-State that will ensure continuity of work in the softwood agreement had been talked about future. Therefore, in welcoming the bill, in forestry circles, but in Bulolo, New I ask the Minister and his department Guinea, in 1965 our Minister for Conser­ closely to examine the need for further vation, as the New South w.ales representa­ reforestation projects in the Kyogle region. tive on the Australian Forestry Council, laid I believe the bill provides the machinery his heart bare and told them that something to permit this. had to be done. Undoubtedly his cogent arguments and his persuasive smile con­ Mr DARBY (Manly) [8.26]: It is often vinced the people who had been willing to said in this House that rural matters are postpone, prevaricate or .defer, that there the concern of country members, and that should be an immediate declaration of Aus­ city members should keep out of rural de­ tralia's intention, somehow or other, to hates because they do not necessarily have catch up with the rest of the dynamic any contribution to make. Although I world. It must be a satisfaction to our represent a metropolitan constituency, I am Minister to find that his enthusiasm is being prompted to ·take part in this debate, be­ matched by the fine contributions that have cause I regard forestry problems as belong­ been made this evening, and by the report ing to New South Wales as a whole, and of perhaps the most successful parliamen­ they certainly do not belong exclusively tary committee that we have had this gen­ to the representatives of rural areas. I was eration. That report must be regarded as most encouraged to hear the honourable a document capable of being used as a member for Merrylands make a significant guide for our forestry development for and worthwhile contribution to the debate. many years. The scope of the bill pleases me because I was brought up in England. Kew Gar­ it not only encourages forestry but also dens was one of my youthful venues for gives an indication of what the Govern­ looking at all the trees of the world and ment seeks to do in New South Wales. In enjoying their beauty and grandeur. As a this State we have a leadership that is re­ boy in England I heard of the work done freshing, to say the least. The Government in Finland and the Baltic countries to re­ not only takes leadership in all kinds of forest as ·they cut down timber. I had heard obviously necessary matters but also is con­ of the work done in Newfoundland, and in cerning itself with .the items of importance other parts of Canada. When I came to that the man in the street has been in­ Australia I found this country more or less clined to regard as unimportant because as I expected, but I found a hatred of trees of the slumbering character of previous which I think is unique among peoples of gov~rnments. Combined with leadership we the world. For the first time I saw forest have an enthusiasm that is amazing for after forest ringbarked, I saw erosion and people, like myself, who have watched com­ loss of national resources. I saw depopu­ lation of towns on our coastline that were placent Ministers come and go in a long booming centres before the cedar and other series of Labor governments. The en­ timber had been ruthlessly taken out. As a thusiasm of our Ministers of the Crown matter of fact, in 1933, after some years is extremely encouraging. All our Minis­ of agitation, I managed to persuade a small ters seem to ·be inoculated with energy, a community to plant some trees, but the pride of service, and an adventurous spirit farmers concerned had been brought up with the idea that a tree was something to of progress. Obviously this will result in be destroyed. You can imagine my chagrin benefit to the State. Among these enthusi­ when at the next meeting, after I had asts there is no person more dedicated than shown them a plan for the planting of the the Minister for Conservation, who must trees, somebody jumped up and said, "I feel a considerable degree of personal pride, move that we plant no trees," and the even joy, when he brings down this bill, motion was carried unanimously. The fact which is the brain child of his own zeal. is that I planted the trees nevertheless, and Softwood Forestry [10 SEPT., 1968] Agreement Bill 763 they are growing nicely now. After thirty­ Mr DARBY: Yes. On the other hand five years the sequoias at Bannister twelve we in Australia have not yet even dreamed miles south of the town of Crookw~ll near of irrigating our forests. I can think of the Great Dividing Range, are doing very some orchards in Taiwan so organized that well. every tree has its own bamboo channel to I was impressed on my recent tour give it a drop of water. Neither have we concerned ourselves with putting fertilizer around the world to see the work being done in forestation. I am sure that the on our trees as we plant them. There is Minister will agree with me that a target of ~onsiderable evidence to prove that it is 75,000 acres is small peanuts compared with JUSt as productive to put fertilizer on a the target that we ought to have and the tree when you plant it as it is to put fer­ programmes being undertaken in other tilizer around a cabbage. It so happens countries. In this connection may I men­ that we have chosen our poorest soils for tion one country which honourable mem­ tree farming. How successful our forests bers may not believe would have a foresta­ would have been if we had planted them in tion programme four or five times as big good quality soil is a question that may as the biggest dream we have had for Aus­ well be determined. One of the interesting tralia: I refer to Switzerland. Of course, things we can do now is to watch the progress of afforestation on our dam sites what is being done in North America with 'oregon, particularly on the west coast and of which the Minister is particularly proud: and of which he is developing so many Columbia especially, is ~n Briti~h extr~mely these days. The soil around the dams is mterestmg. They have become aware of the necessity to plant timber. We are many frequently well suited to this sort of pro­ duction. Some of it has been under culti­ years behind in this respect. One bas only vation. It could well be useful to see how to look across the Tasman to see bow New pinus radiata responds to being planted on Zealanders realized thirty, forty or fifty fertilized soil. From my own limited ex­ years a~o that softwoods were worth grow­ perience it would seem that superphosphate mg. It IS most encouraging to find that the Government is now taking a lead in soft­ and pinus radiata go very weH together. wood growing in •this country. That immediately brings me back to the I should like to say a special word about benefit that will accrue to the farmer in the farm woodlot scheme as a means of in­ using the farm woodlot scheme. This was creasing our softwood plantings. It is not originated by a Minister here, and after a short period of operation about 2,000 acres !h~ task of the Government to plant trees ; It IS the task of the farmers. Trees are an of land have already been approved for this scheme. The advantages to a farmer ex~ellent crop, even though it may be the children of the farmers who will benefit of having a woodlot are many. He not from them. only has a gift for his son or grandson of a very nice nest egg in the future, but also Mr GRASSBY: If the farmer bas the land. bas an opportunity of giving his stock shelter and shade. One of the great prob­ Mr DARBY: One of the things you need lems of our sheep industry is very high to plant trees is land, and farmers generally stock Joss. The lambing percentage for the whole of New South Wales is approximately have land. If you tie up 10 acres of a 60 per cent. If we could increase the 300-acre farm by planting trees, the 6,000 percentage to 80 per cent it would mean trees that you can plant on 10 acres will that many millions more sheep would live return $12,000 in twenty years as a cash in New South Wales each year. crop. If you work it out over twenty years, One reason for the loss of Jambs is lack you will find it just as productive as shutting of shelter, particularly during cold snaps, up one or two sheep to the acre on those snowstorms and other meteorological dis­ 10 acres. turbances. However, if a farmer had a woodlot he could shelter his sheep and Mr GRASSBY: That is dry area? cattle. About eighteen months ago when 764 Softwood Forestry [ASSEMBLY] Agreement Bill

I planted some trees we called it Lamb­ legislation to include deciduous and halfd­ birth Wood, a place where ewes could wood trees, so that the oppmtunities New have their lambs under shelter. We propose South Wales has in forestry can be fully to have artificial feeding and other ameni­ exploited. ties for sheep so they may he well nur­ This bill has been introduced by a com­ tured during the later pregnancy stages petent and energetic Minister. It is pleas­ and when feeding their lambs. This wood­ ing to see so many members paying tributes lot will enable them to be looked after with to him. I wish him all possible success the almost certain knowledge that there in his endeavours, and trust he may remain will be a larger lamb drop. a Minister for many years to establish The effect of sheep droppings on the New South Wales as a forest State to the growing of grass under pine trees has yet benefit of our decentralization pmgramme to be determined. It may well be that and general economy, and to safeguard grass can be grown under pine trees our land against erosion. provided there is enough stock to produce suitable humus. A few weeks ago I looked Mr BROWN (Raleigh) [8.45]: I am at a pine forest in Lincolnshire, England, pleased to be associated with the Softwood planted by the Earl of Ancaster. I was Forestry Agreement Bill. Generally it is a most interested to see that where softwood bill which will be welcomed throughout our trees had been planted in rich agricultural community and indeed Australia, because land the grass grew under the trees and of the part that New South Wales timbers the growth of the trees was phenomenaL will play in the future requirements of our If we have the same .result in New South country. There are certain matters to which Wales we shall have farm foodlots and I should like ·to refer, and particularly to lamb-birth woods attached to grazing the stress placed on the planting of pinus properties and shall not lose much grass in radiata in evidence given to the committee the process. There are many other reasons by Forestry Commission officers. I intend for the establishment of woodlots. The to refer to several paragraphs of the com­ Minister has enthusiastically given a lead mittee's report. At times I have felt that which I think will be followed by farmers some members of the Forestry Commission throughout New South Wa·les and perhaps were radiata happy. They have regarded by those in other States, •too. pinus radiata as the be-ali and end-all to The reluctance of farmers to set aside solve our timber problems. Because of the a few acres of land to grow trees is serious degree to which our indigenous timber has and is based upon long-term antipathy of been cut out the committee realized the Australians towards trees. Australian need to plant new species. This planting farmers have ·regarded trees as the enemy of grass and have taken ·the view that trees had to be at a rate which would give early should be ringbarked and burnt out so maturity. I wish to quote from the report that grass may grow. However, when trees of the select committee, tabled in this House are removed it is quite likely that the soil in November, 1967. On the subject of pinus which is required to grow the g.rass will radiata and future softwood plantings, the be washed ·away, ·and only the subsoil will report said: remain. In Australia we must face the difficulty of our trees not making their During inspections, and examination of wit­ nesses, it was apparent that although the pro­ own humus, as do deciduous trees. We perties of Pinus radiata as measured in the have not yet had much experience with laboratory compared favourably with other species, particularly the Douglas Fir, the growing pine trees in good soil and with timber trade views the species unfavourably fertilizer, nor have we experimented with and is resistant to its widespread use. The interesting position has now arisen where the humus and droppings. However, now the wood technologists and foresters, who do not Minister has demonstrated his enthusiasm have to use the end product are convinced of its quality whereas the end users, the builders, for softwood forests I feel sure it will not architects and carpenters, are critical of it and be long before he will bring down further are generally reluctant to use it. Mr. Darby] Softwood Forestry [10 SEPT., 1968] Agreement Bill 765 This was the position with which the com­ framework, the studding, the flooring, and mittee was faced. It bad to consider whe­ a lot of the weatherboards were radiata ther it should recommend, in spite of ob­ pine. At Port Adelaide rt:he committee jections, that pinus radiata should be the saw some piers which had been made from species planted. Even though the demand radiata pine and had given good service. for timber was heavy, and even though Forestry Commission officers, who are most In all, we saw that pinus radiata had competent, on the strict basis of economics been accepted in South Australia. :rhis thought that pinus radiata was the right was because that State was completely out timber, the commi·ttee felt that on general of timber a number of years ago ; it just economics we might not be able to sell that had to grow timber and it was found that timber and therefore it may not be the best in the southeast corner of the State pinus type of tree to plant. radiata grew well because the topography, the climate and the rainfall were suitable. Architects and builders stated that they However, I want to impress upon the Min­ would not use pinus radiata if other tim­ ister again, as the select committee did, bers were available. Their chief criticisms that we must not be radiata happy. The of this species were that it is too soft and Forestry Commission must plant other tim­ that it wears unevenly if used as an ex­ bers. There is no reason why we should posed floor. They said also ·that it decays not do this under the agreement. The too rapidly. These two properties mean Commonwealth Government under this that as a flooring timber it would often agreement allows for the cost of planting, only be acceptable if it were to be treated and I hope that we shall work out our by impregnation and then covered. The costs of planting completely so that the architects and builders said also that pinus Commonwealth will not be let off. We radiata absorbs moisture much more must include the full cost. readily than other timbers, and this causes movement which in joinery is un­ The honourable member for Lismore has satisfactory. It is more brittle structurally pointed out the value of hoop pine in the than Douglas fir and does not have enough Kyogle area, on the Toonumbar Range. give. It is not a timber that retains its The select committee was much impressed straightness and is subject to warping and with the growth of hoop pine in that area. winding. Douglas fir or oregon on the The honourable member for Merrylands other hand is not affected by warping. has spoken of this and has told the House Pinus radiata does not and cannot be ex­ that across the border in Queensland, with pected to make a high-grade face veneer. a climate and rainfall almost the same as They were some of the views that were that mentioned by the honourable member expressed to ·the select committee. · for Lismore, hoop pine is a very appro­ priate timber. The point that I wish to I realize that Douglas fir, or oregon, impress upon the House is that under this which the timber trade uses a great deal agreement, which allows the State to plant in construction, is a mature timber, cut vast acreages, we must not plant only pinus from trees that are seventy, eighty or ninety radiata. We must plant Douglas fir. The years old. The select committee wanted Forestry Commission was able to show the to look at pinus radiata in detail, and to select committee in evidence, after the com­ do this it went to South Australia, which mittee had asked the commission to give is known as the radiata State. The com­ details of experience with Douglas fir, that mittee was there quite impressed with a it was growing very well in some areas of lot of the uses to which pinus radiata is New South Wales. The committee ascer­ put. We went to a housing project being tained that the trouble with ·hoop pine was built by the Government Housing Agency that in the early stages it was overcome by in South Australia, the equivalent of the weed growth. We found out also that Housing Commission of New South Wales, this has almost been overcome and that and there we saw houses almost completely hoop pine is a very satisfactory timber. I built of radiata pine-the whole of the myself am most interested in the growth of 766 Softwood Forestry [ASSEMBLY] Agreement Bill cedar. Unfortunately over the years At present I have a letter before the Minis· troubles have been caused by a type of ter about this matter. Because of the great moth, but I understand that research work importance that poplar growing could be to which is proceeding is gradually solving our community, this timber should be this problem. I hope that if the problem planted under the Commonwealth-State is solved cedar will be planted in New agreement. The cost of acquiring a demon­ South Wales ; there is no lovelier timber for stration plot, as recommended by the com­ furniture. Here in Parliament House, par­ mittee, could well come within scope of the ticularly over in another place, there is agreement. I have looked carefully at the some glorious cedar furniture. bill to see if there was any way that this could be covered, and in my opinion the Before I conclude, let me make some scope is wide enough to permit the planting reference to the Select Committee upon of varieties of timbers. I urge the Minister the Timber Industry and the interest which to ensure that under this agreement we get it has created. Only today I received a the very best advantage for the whole of letter from the professor in charge of the New South Wales by planting a variety of Department of Geography at the University timbers. The majority of plantings will, of of New England referring to certain mat­ course, be pinus radiata, but let us plant ters which the committee mentioned in its also Douglas fir, hoop pine and poplars so report. I have received also a letter from that we shall have a variety of timber which the University of Queensland asking for will be of particular benefit to the industry copies of the report. I have received a and to the whole State. letter also from the Australian National University at Canberra. The Institute of Mr MACKIE (Albury) [8.59]: I support Foresters, at its annual conference last the bill, the object of which is to ratify an month, passed a special resolution com­ agreement between the Commonwealth and mending the work of the committee and the State of New South Wales to increase urging the Government to implement its the production of softwood timbers in this recommendations. These facts alone show State. I support the measure because I that this committee was worthwhile. believe that there is no better form of Popular is an important timber about decentralization in country areas than the which little was known as far as our official further development of our timber records were concerned until the select com­ resources. mittee met. Indeed, poplar plantations in In the eastern parts of my electorate there this country are in their infancy, but mem­ is a good deal of forestry development and bers of the committee considered that, with I am naturally interested to see that these additional research, this timber could make areas are developed at least sufficiently to a significant contribution to the timber re­ maintain or, if possible, to increase the pros­ quirements of this State. Up at Grafton, pects of ·the people living in them. Batlow where the Federal Match Company has its was previously included in my electorate but was taken from it during the recent re­ factory, poplars are doing remarkably well. distribution. However, portion of the Bat­ At a place called Bellimbopinni on the low forestry area is still in my electorate, lower Macleay the growth of poplars that as are •the extensive softwood plantations at were planted less than two years ago is Tumbarumba. Only recently the Forestry nothing short of remarkable. I should like Commission purchased 4,800 acres in the to refer the Minister particularly to a Tumbarumba district to extend the Carabost State Forest in which it has been planting recommendation of the select committee on about 600 acres of softwoods and hopes to poplar growing that appears on page 34 of extend the planting ·to at least 830 acres a its report, as follows: year. This is considerable development, for ( 1) That the Forestry Commission should it has been stated that every 100 acres of acquire suitable land, e.g., in the lower Macleay, to eSitablish poplar nurseries and softwoods sown pwvides a livelihood for demonstration plots. three persons and their families. Mr Brown] Softwood Forestry [10 SEPT., 1968] Agreement Bill 767 In this part of the country, which is so representative of the Forestry Commission suitable for softwood plantations, we are to be stationed there. The commission striving to establish some form of decen­ bas an office at Tumut but, with the in­ tralized industry that will guarantee the creased development of softwood planta­ future of these people. There is no better tions in this area I should like to see a industry than the forestry industry, which forestry office established in Tumbarumba develops natural resources. This agreement as well. This is necessary, not only for that the State has entered into with the the softwoods plantations but also for the Commonwealth to increase our softwood hardwood timbers in the area. production in the Commonwealth as a whole is most commendable. After all, For some years now there has been Australia imports about $200,000,000 worth a move to try to encourage the establish­ of timber annually. In the future, despite ment of a paper-pulp works in the district. the fact that we shall spend a great deal The main problem is the disposal of the more money on softwood plantations, with industrial effluent. The production of increased population it is reasonable to paper-pulp requires the use of a great deal assume that we shall have a great deal of of water, which must be disposed of satis­ trouble in keeping up with the bigger de­ factofi.ly. For some time it was considered mand within Australia for timber and tim­ that, because the effluent would pollute ber products. streams and eventually find its way into the Murray River or even into the Murrum· In many areas of this State, especially in bidgee River, the industry could not be my electorate, there is a great deal of de­ established there. However, it has now velopment in softwoods products. In the been discovered that the effluent contains Tumut area a number of companies are certain fertilizing agents and that with operating. One of them, Pyneboard Pro­ modern, scientific processing, it could be prietary Limited, which is developing pine­ developed into a valuable fertilizer. board for building purposes and other Alternatively, the effluent might be disposed timber by-products as well, such as flooring of in some of the low-lying areas adjoin­ boards, has been assisted by the Department ing the Tumbarumba district. We have a of Decentralisation and Development. This g·reat deal of va·luable forest country in the company uses the thinnings of the forest for eastern part of my electorate, where there producing its building materials and creo­ is an unlimited quantity of timber, and sote-treated fencing posts. This has de­ it is a great pity that we .cannot establish veloped into quite a big industry. The local industries to assist in the progress of Department of Decentralisation and Devel­ opment, realizing the importance of the the area. industry in this area, has made available to In this debate reference has been made Pyneboard Proprietary Limited a good deal to the establishment of woodlots. This of money to assist in establishing its plant. Recently, a number of members from city commendable scheme bas its problems. areas who visited Tumut for the opening I know a good number of people of the Blowering Dam, took •the opportunity who in recent years have put a great to visit the various local timber industries deal of money into the establishment of and were most impressed with what was softwood plantations on their properties. being done in developing them. The Government makes money available Further south, Pioneer Forest Products to assist them but the trees •are subject to are producing alpine ash boat oars, which disease and the ravages of drought. Many are being exported all over the world. years ago in my own electorate a gentle­ Alpine ash oars are recognized ·as one of man sowed a great number of softwood the finest products avaibble in the world today. Consequent upon the softwood trees on his property, but it would be safe plantation development in the Tum­ to say that during the recent drought he barumba area, over a number of years lost at least half of them. That is one of I have been asking ·the Minister for a the hazards associated with the enterprise. 768 Softwood Forestry [ASSEMBLY] Agreement Bill

A point that must be taken into con­ I support the ratification of the agree­ sideration in regard to- woodlots is the fact ment between the Commonwealth and the that softwood plantations take thirty-five States that is covered by this commendable years to develop to commercial value. legislation. It is most necessary that the Should a person who introduced such a federal Government participate in the de­ scheme die, the value of the plantation is velopment of our forests. It is unfortunate assessed for probate purposes and his family that the Commonwealth should insist that has to pay probate duty on it. This dis­ the State begin repayments eleven years advantage will restrict the development of from the commencement of the scheme. farm woodlot schemes. A number of After all, it takes about thirty-five years people have spoken to me about it, some for softwood plantations to reach maturity saying that they will not borrow money to and this means that New South Wales will embark on growing woodlots on their pro­ be repaying money and the interest on it perties in the knowledge that if they die for many years before receiving any return before the scheme becomes economic, their on its investment. I know the Minister families will be confronted with the prob­ is concerned about this matter. I hope lem of paying probate duty on the Valuer­ that if we manage to convince the federal General's estimate of the value of the wood­ Government that the financial arrangements lots. I have discussed this matter with the of the scheme are most unsatisfactory, it Minister, who is aware of the problem that will make money available on a much probate duty poses to this scheme. I ask longer term, thereby assisting greatly to him to consider possible ways of overcom­ develop the softwood industry of this State. ing the difficulties. It is hoped to build up softwood planting Large areas have been planted in soft­ in the nation to 75,000 acres a year. This woods in my electorate in recent years. In State's objective is to be planting at the 1967-1968 approximately 8,000 acres of rate of 25,000 acres by 1975. It softwoods were sown in the Tumut River will not be impossible to achieve this area and I am informed that next year goal provided that the Commonwealth 9,600 acres will be sown. As I mentioned Government makes the necessary money earlier, these plantings have an important available. Much more is involved in timber bearing on the employment of country growing than the mere clearing of land and labour. Two prison camps are located in the planting of trees. Many other things my electorate, one of them being the Leslie are necessary including the establishment of Nott Afforestation Camp at Laurel Hill. roads, which requires a considerable capital Most softwood sowing, land clearing, and outlay. Recently the Minister announced forest thinning there is done by prisoners that his department would be constructing of the Laurel Hill camp. Similar work seventy-nine miles of road to cost about is being done by the prisoners at Mannus. $71,000 in the Bargo State Forest at Tumut. Most of the forests in the Mannus and This is a lot of money to spend on road Carabost areas are supervised by the staff construction, but it is necessary. Forestry of the prison camps. These prisoners activities play havoc with shire roads. In are doing a particularly good job. my electorate shire councils are concerned I have had the pleasure of going out about the wear and tear on their roads with the officers in charge of these camps through forestry activities. I understand to watch the work being done by the in­ that the Minister has power to divert some mates. T,here is no doubt that the super­ of the funds available to him to shire coun­ vision of these men is commendable and cils to compensate them for wear and tear that the work done by them is to be on their roads. applauded. Prisoners living in this environ­ ment are doing a wonderful job and, as I While the Minister has money available said earlier, and as was stated also by the to him for the development of roads in Minister in his second-reading speech, con­ these forest areas he might bear in mind the siderable plantings have been achieved by effect of the operations of timber trucks in them in these areas. the winter months on country roads. Shire MrMackie] Softwood Forestry [10 SEPT., 1968] Agreement Bill 769 councils are being caused considerable finan­ Commonwealth Government that much cial embarrassment in maintaining roads to more money is needed if we are simply carry heavy trucks. I ask the Minister to to break even with the demand for raw consider particularly the problems of the timber and timber products in the next Tumbarumba Shire Council in this respect twenty-five years. I commend the Minister and to request his officers to confer with and •uhe Forestry Commission for their the council to ascertain the extent of road practical approach to solving what is a damage caused by forestry activities in the difficult economic problem in Australia at an~a. The transport of timber over these this time. roads in the winter months has caused a great deal of damage. If the Minister could Mr COATES (Blue Mountains) [9.22]: divert a small portion of his funds to this I support the bill which, when put into council to compensate it for ·the increased effect, will mean that substant1al loan maintenance of these roads, I assure him funds will be available to augment funds that it would be most welcome. from this State to carry out additional essential forestry work, especiaUy in regard The honourable member for Raleigh re­ to plantations of radiata pine and some ferred to the desirability of increasing poplar where these species can be suitably production of poplar timbers. His proposal grown. The importance of this scheme is commendable and something is being is emphasized by the fact that funds will done about it in the southern part of the permit an increase to 75,000 acres of State. Unfortunately, real economic devel­ plantation per annum ; this will continue opment in poplar growing for commercial for a period of about thkty-five years. purposes can be achieved only under irri­ Reference has been made by previous gation. I have had some experience in speakers to the eleven-year period which, growing poplar trees for matchwood and I when ended, will represent the start of have found that unless the growth of this repayments of loans from the Common­ timber can be boosted so tha·t some of it wealth. can be cut within seven, eight or nine years of planting, it cannot very well be classed The previous speaker, the honourable as an economic proposition. These trees member for Albury, said that the timber grow well under irrigation but in areas that which is produced from the forests to be are subject to seasonal variations the trees planted would not be ready for commercia.! might not mature for from fifteen to twenty use for a period of about thirty-five years. years. I submit that owing to technological ad­ vances and modern techniques, with which I support the measure, which is a real our Forestry Commission has ·been closely advance in the development of the timber associated, radiata pine could be ,cut dur­ resources of this country. As I mentioned ing the thinning period, about eight or ten earlier, this country has to meet a tre­ years after planting. These forests are mendous import bill each year for raw planted with 680 trees to the acre. After timber and timber products. As our popula­ a number of years the faulty ones show tion grows we shall certainly have to spend up and at the appropriate time they are much more on the development of culled out. In earlier years this timber natural resour.ces and the planting of tim­ was thrown away. From investigations bers to cope with the demand that will certainly ensue in the years to come. It that have been made we have learned that could be that our hope of developing the in South Australia for example they cannot area under production by 75,000 acres a get enough of these small trees. After ap­ year will be adequate for the next .thirty­ propriate treatment with chemicals under five years but, as the honourable member pressure these 3-inch, 4-inch and 5-inch for Manly has said, on oversea figures diameter trees which at one time were re­ this could be classed as mere peanuts in garded as useless, are now in heavy demand timber production. I believe this to be for fence posts. This could happen in New true. We shall have to convince the South Wales, and I believe it will. 49 770 Softwood Forestry [ASSEMBLY] Agreement Bill In addition, at various parts throughout honourable member for Raleigh, dedicated the State, especially in the Tumut and himself to the task of preparing a report Oberon areas, particle board factories have for presentation to this Parliament which been established. Because of the shortage of would represent the basis of suggestions for radiata pine, some of these factories are ob­ the future development of the timber in­ liged to mix with the pine chips some quan­ dustry of this State. Honourable memb:.>rs tities of hardwood in order to obtain suf­ can imagine the joy that members of the ficient raw materials to produce the board committee feel when they see that some which is in keen demand. Much of these of the fruits of their labours will ripen thinnings-timber which at one time was when the bill is agreed to and the policy useless-could be diverted to particle that we believe should be carried out, as board factories and converted into dollars expressed in the report, is implemented. and cents for the Forestry Commission, at I emphasize that reasonable capital must the same time assisting the industry proces­ be made available for the treatment of our sing the raw material. indigenous timbers by the method known I was honoured to be a member of the as silviculture. It is true to say that in Select Committee on the Timber Industry. earlier years Australia was the richest During our investigations we learned that country in the world for its hardwoods, the radiata pine trees, fifteen or eighteen years value of which was not appreciated until we of age-trees that would be about twelve found that they were being cut out. Though inches through at the bottom, eight inches our supplies of raw material in the forests at the top and thirty-five feet long-could today are much less than they were many be debarked and treated with chemical years ago, which is causing a measure of solutions under pressure for successful use concern, it is my opinion that much good as telegraph poles. Previously, had anyone can result from a programme of cleaning told me-a person who has had a life­ up some of our forests. To do this, funds time of experience in the timber industry must be made available to the Forestry -that it was possible successfully to use Commission in greater measure for the radiata pine for telegraph poles I should establishment of a process of natural not have believed him. The advances that regeneration. In other words, silviculture have been made in science have meant that must be put into operation on a much these poles can be guaranteed for a period broader plane. I hope the State will be of from thirty to forty years. This is better able to provide more funds for this work: than many of our hardwoods. It is fair to I regret that the Commonwealth Govern­ say that the advances made by the Fores­ ment has not helped the State financially try Commission in the treatment of radiata in this aspect of forestry redevelopment. pine, in particular, mean that in these mod­ ern times we can expect an economic return The honourable member for Raleigh much quicker than could have been ex­ referred to Douglas fir, which is commonly pected many years ago. known as oregon in this country. Though radiata pine is a most useful timber and At this stage I should like to commend will be of great value to our country in the work done by the Select Committee future, no timbers in Australia, or indeed on the Timber Industry, which was ap­ in the world, can take the place of oregon pointed by the Parliament, and about three for some specific 1obs., especially where years ago began its investigations into the long spans must be covered by one piece timber industry. The committee consisted of timber. Following good work by the of members representative of politics from research department of the Forestry Com­ both sides of the House and myself. I mission, it has been proved that in certain place on record that notwithstanding the places Douglas fir will grow successfully, fact that we travelled to South Australia and. Victoria. and throughout the whole of as it is now being grown in New Zealand. our own State, never was there at any time The select committee on timber suggested serious disagreement within the committee. in its report for the consideration of Par­ Each member, under the leadership of the liament that 10 per cent of funds allocated MrCoates] Softwood Forestry [10 SEPT., 1968] Agreement Bill 771 for the development of softwoods should Mr JACK BEALE (South Coast), Min­ be made available for the planting of ister for Conservation [9.36], in reply: I Douglas fir. I hope this will be done. appreciate very much the manner in which members have discussed the features of this I represent an electorate in which radiata important softwood programme, the financ­ pine has for many years been grown exten­ ing of which by the Commonwealth will sively, particularly in the Jenolan a~d be ratified by this bill. I thank the many Hampton areas. Plantations have been m members who have spoken in the debate existence for many years also in the Wal­ and I am grateful to both members who lerawang district and at Newnes. The paid a tribute to the dedica·ted officers of the policy expressed in this bill will mean that Forestry Commission who will have the re­ the area under plantation within my elec­ sponsibility of implementing this pro­ torate and just outside it can be greatly gramme. The honourable member for Mur­ expanded. There are some excellent stands rumbidgee, when leading for the Opposition, of well-developed radiata pine in the stated that he was in general agreement Forestry Department's Hampton and with •the bill, but raised five specific mat­ Jenolan divisions. One should place on ters for consideration. Some other mem­ record the good work done by fores!ry bers have raised them as well. First, the officers in their programme of clear fellmg honomable member for Murrumbidgee and clearing quite an extensive ~rea of lat?d estimated that, on a Commonwealth-wide adjacent to this plantation. Th1s . area ~111 basis, the planting programme would be be progressively planted with ra~1ata pme. about 600,000 acres short of the target by I hope this policy will be contmued. It the year 2000. [Quorum formed.] He will mean using for this sort of work much based this view on an estimate by the Aus­ Crown land that is useless for any other tralian Forestry Council, also made on an purpose. Australia-wide basis, that the nation would Recently His E~cellency the Go~ern~r need 3,000,000 acres of softwoods planted opened the N ewnes prison farm, which IS by ·that year in order to provide adequa~e virtually in the centre of the Newnes plan­ supplies of timber J)or tJhe future. ThlS tation area. The Crown land there IS of number was, of course, an estimate in round very poor quality inde~d, but. ~t ha~ been figures of future requirements. It includes proved that with certam addi!Jves It can the reasonably substantial areas planted with grow radiata pine very well mdeed. On softwood to date in the different States. my estimation, about 50,000 acr~s are The target figures set out in the bill are available there. Development of this area those recommended by forestry experts of will not only mean work for . our loc.al all the States and the Commonwealth after people ; also, the prisoners at the f~rm wlll thorough investigation. In fact, they meet be trained in some sort of art which they the recommendations of the New South may subsequently use to their adva~tag_e Wales Forestry Commission. when released. Ultimately, when the pme 1s grown-and it will not ~e m~ny years befo:e Mr GRAsSBY: What_ is the difference? some of it is useful-it wlll be the basic Mr JACK BEALE: The difference is that material upon which further industries can it is a round-figure estimate. When this is be established in and around Lithgow. I calculated, it is necessary to multiply the support the bill, not only for its value to planting rate by a certain number of years. my electorate, but also because it will im­ However, the Australian Forestry Council plement recommendations brought down by took into account a substantial area that is the Select Committee on Timber for a pro­ planted already. What is set out in this gramme of extensive _developi?ent of measure achieves the target that was set forestry in our State, particularly m. regard down by the forestry experts of all States, to radiata pine and poplar, to which ref­ erence has been made by other members. and its fits into the recommendation from I trust the bill will have a speedy passage the New South Wales Forestry Commission. and that the money made available will be In so determining these targets, due regard quickly put to good use. had to be given to the ability of the 772 Softwood Forestry [ASSEMBLY] Agreement Bill

States to meet those targets. I can assure Mr JACK BEALE: Reference was made the House that New South Wales is ful­ to the State's responsibility to timber towns, filling its share of the obligations imposed and Kyogle has been instanced as such a on the States. In fact, we are doing more ·town. In all its forest management activi­ than our share. In 1965 the area planted ties, the Forestry Commission's prime con­ was 7,700 acres. We have more than cern is the economics of its proposals. doubled this, and this year we have planted 16,000 acres. At the present rate of pro­ Mr SLOss: Mr Speaker, I still say that gress, and with continued Commonwealth there is undue murmuring in the House. financial aid, the planting rate in New South Wales will reach the annual target of 25,000 Mr SPEAKER: Order! I think the honour­ acres somewhere about 1974-75. This tar­ able member for King is trifling with the get figure includes planting to be undertaken Chair. by private companies and landholders. Mr JACK BEALE: In some areas, soft­ Mr SLoss: Mr Speaker, I draw your at­ wood plantations are the most economic t<(Ption to the mumbling in the House. proposition, but, in many North Coast Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Minister for areas, undoubtedly the silvicultural treat­ Conservation. ment of our native timber stands is the only sensible method by which the commission Mr JACK BEALE: However, as I can safeguard our future timber supplies. stressed in my second-reading speech, it is Bulahdelah is another timber town, but sil­ essential that this Commonwealth-State vicultural treatment of native hardwood agreement be renewed in three years' time timber stands has always been considered if the target of softwood plantings is to be the most economic form of forestry de­ achieved. velopment in that region. Nowra is yet another town where the sawmilling industry Mr SLoss: Mr Speaker, I again draw is facing grave difficulties in obtaining hard­ your attention to the undue mumbling in the wood timber supplies. The four mills in House. I cannot hear even what the Min­ the Nowra forestry district have a life ex­ ister is saying. pectancy which does not exceed five years. Mr SPEAKER: Order! The audible con­ The Forestry Commission is conducting a versation will cease. survey of timber on Crown lands and every possible step is being taken to keep the Mr JACK BEALE: I find it difficult to industry in operation. I assure the House accept the Japanese programme as a good that the Government is well aware of the basis for comparison with Australian re­ social aspects of forestry dn relation to quirements. For a start, there is a tremen­ country towns. dous difference in the populations of the two countries. Timber is the main building In regard to other species of softwood, material used in Japan and, as that country the Forestry Commission's prime considera­ is prone to earthquake, I should imagine tion is to be satisfied as to the suitability that there will not be any great changes in of soil, site and climatic conditions. Pinus the future. Further, 68 per cent of Japan is radiata will, as I have said, form the far natural forest country, as compared with greater part of plantings-in the immediate the arid and semi-arid areas which cover future at least. The success of planting the greater part of Australia. this type of pine in New South Wales has been amply demonstrated. Pinus radiata Mr SLoss: Mr Speaker, for the third time thrives, with suitable soil conditions, in I draw your attention to the mumbling in those parts of the State where there is some the House. I cannot even hear the speaker. snow about. However, it does not grow Mr SPEAKER: Order! I do not think the well in the higher altitudes where the land conversation in the House is excessive. I is permanently or nearly permanently cov­ do not think it is anything like as bad as ered by snow in winter. Also, p·inus radiata it gets at times. does not give the best results on coastal Softwood Forestry [10 SEPT., 1968] Agreement Bill 773 areas, although the commission is con­ keep these to a minimum. The honourable stantly experimenting with its pinus radiata member for Murrumbidgee mentioned also plantings. the position of holders of Crown leases. In 1967-68, a small trial area of 18 In this regard, it is important to appreciate acres was planted with hoop pine on the that, with the exception of those leases North Coast, for research on establishment specifically mentioned in the Forestry Act, costs. I agree with the view expressed the timber on other Crown leases and Crown that there is a place for hoop pine in the lands is the property of the Crown. I have New South Wales programme of planta­ asked the Forestry Commission to assess tion establishment, but the Forestry Com­ its land requirements on a sound planning mission believes this research must be con­ basis. tinued into various aspects of nursery The honourable member for Merrylands, practice, planting and weed control before the honourable member for Raleigh and the routine plantings can be considered econ­ honourable member for Blue Mountains omical. One of the main drawbacks to mentioned Douglas fir, or oregon. This the economical plantation of hoop pine is timber is grown in New South Wales, but that it still has to be tubed. This adds there has been a ra~her limited planting greatly ·to the cost. However, with con­ since the second world war. The Forestry tinuous research, it should be possible to Commission states that Douglas fir or undertake open plantings with hoop pine, oregon pine has certain disadvantages, tl'fe as is now the practice with Monterey pine, main one being the very slow rate of and thus it may be possible to extend plant­ growth. The tree reaches maturity in sixty ings of the former species on an economical to seventy years as compared with thirty­ basis. Hoop pine is suitable for planting five to forty for pinus radiata. Douglas fir in rain forests and nearby areas. In addi­ is susceptible also to early and late frosts, tion to the softwood species mentioned, the and this prejudices its early growth. How­ commission has also undertaken, in accord­ ever, the Forestry Commission is aware ance with the programme, plantings of pinus of the capabilities of Douglas fir and is ex­ elliotii or slash pine on the northern perimenting wi~h plantations. Experimental coastal areas. This is the most successful planting is to be continued at the rate of softwood species of which plantings can be about 300 acres a year. I can assure the undertaken on the lower altitude areas of House that the recommendation of the the coast, although slash pine does better select committee mentioned tonight will be on the North Coast. carefully studied. The honourable member for Murrum­ Some honourable members mentioned bidgee referred to the need for careful the need for the development of our native planning. I can assure the honourable forests. While a greatly expanded pro­ gentleman and the House that this is being gramme of softwood planting is being carried out to ensure the success of the undertaken, we are accelerating the de­ planting programme. Careful planning is velopment of our native timber stands. In a basic requirement of what must be, in the three years just passed, 1966 to 1968, accordance with the provisions of this bill, we treated silviculturally 266,000 acres a large-scale investment. It will be appre­ compared with 185,000 acres in the pre­ ciated that substantial areas will be required vious similar period. The work now going for softwood planting if the target is to be on will greatly increase the output of native achieved. First, we use suitable areas of timber, but I emphasize that the amount state forests and timber reserves that are of work being done is far too small in rela­ tion to the need. I should like to see it available. As a next step, we look to vacant doubled or even trebled if we are to meet Crown lands as a source suitable for plant­ in an effective way our hardwood needs of ing, and my colleague, the Minister for the future. Lands, has co-operated. Some acquisitions The honourable member for Manly and of freehold or leasehold land are necessary, the honourable member for Albury spoke but it is the wish of the Government to of the role of farm woodlot forestry. That 774 Softwood Forestry [ASSEMBLY] Agreement Bill has not been overlooked. In my second­ doubt that expanded forestry is one of reading speech I mentioned the farm wood­ the most effective forms of decentralization lot scheme, which the Government intro­ of industry, and under the Government's duced to help landholders who plant areas programme we are seeing a lot of develop­ of from 5 to 100 acres of trees. This has ment in this field at the moment. Only a dual purpose in being a valuable asset, last Friday some honourable members were providing a resource for sale in later years, at the Blowering Dam ceremony, and and in forming shelter belts while the trees some of them took the opportunity of seeing are growing. The shelter belts help lift the forestry development in the area. In the lambing rate in areas like the southern one area a pine board factory has been tablelands. The first tree planted under this established in the life of this Government, scheme was planted on the property of the and it is employing about 150 persons. honourable member for Manly, in what is This means that nearly three times that called Lamb-birth Wood. The honourable number are added to the local population. member is trying to use this area for a dual Some honourable members referred to purpose-as a timber resource later on and the need for promotion to obtain a better immediately as a shelter for stock. The acceptance for radiata pine. Work is going honourable member for Manly is a very on in this field. This Government, '.through good conservation farmer whether it be in the Forestry Commission, has established the field of water, soil or forestry, and if a timber advisory council. Research, pro­ we were transferring some of the forestry motion and education programmes are in programme to Manly, we would probably train, and only a few days ago I men­ have to agree to the species Douglas fir tioned in ·this Hou;se a stress grading being used. machine that had been developed by The farm woodlot scheme is moving officers of the ·commission. The machine ahead, and already about 2,000 acres have is helping to improve the acceptance of been planted. The plantings are not re­ radiata pine. Also, of course, the Forestry stricted to pines ; poplars, or cottonwoods Commission did spedal work in the treat­ as they are called, are being grown. These ment of radiata pine to help its acceptance. have become very popular in the lower The honourable member for Albury said Hawkesbury area. The honourable member that with the growth of forestry in his for Raleigh mentioned poplar planting in area, particularly in the Tumbarumba dis­ his area, and we are looking at the matter trict, he would like ·tO see a local forestry that he raised about developing proper office established. 'J1his is getting closer experiment lots in that part of the State. to a possibiolity because of the rate of The honourable member for Blue growth in the Batlow, Tumut, and Tumba­ Mountains spoke of technological advances rumba districts. In this area we have more which could lead to better utilization of our than doubled the rate of planting, and timber resources. The Forestry Commis­ by next yea·r it will be almost trebled. sion is playing an important part in the Therefore there will be a lot more work advances we are seeing today. These ad­ to be done on forestry in that 1ocality vances, particulaTly those that result from and I am hoping that it will not be too the work of the Division of Wood Tech­ long before we have some good news for nology of the Forestry Commission, will the honourable gentleman. I shai.l look help in the utili21ation of a lot ·of timbers at the problem of the Tumbarumba shire that we are only partly using today. The roads. I think that that covers all of the honourable member for Monaro, the hon­ matters that were raised in the debate. I ourable member for ililey and the honour­ able member for Albury spoke of the point out to honourable members who importance of forestry in country develop­ have spoken that when they think in terms ment, and mentioned that 100 acres of of what was done by the Forestry Com­ mature forest will usually provide jobs mission in the year just gone, planting for about three persons, and this means 16,000 acres of forests, they will realize a livelihood for about six. There is no the tremendous job that has been done. Mr Jack Beale] Softwood Bill [10 SEPT., 1968] University of N.S.W. Bill 775

Mr BROWN: In the last twelve months? South Wales; to make certain consequential amendments to certain Acts; and for purposes Mr JACK BEALE: In this year 1968. connected therewith. Mr BROWN: That must be an all-time The purposes of the bill are to consolidate, record. It makes the previous Government with amendments, the various statutory look very poor. provisions relating to the University of New South Wales ; to vary the constitution Mr JACK BEALE: The planting rate of the council of the university; to em­ jumped from 7,700 acres in 1965 to 16,000 power the council of the university to elect acres in the year just passed. When hon­ as chancellor a person who is not a member ourable members think in terms of purchas­ of the council ; to extend the powers of the ing and clearing 16,000 acres of land, of council of the university relating to the putting in roads and planting something making of by-laws ; to enable the university like 10,000,000 trees, they can see the to establish a superannuation scheme for enormous ·task undertaken. Gearing up to professors who are not contributors to the it has been difficult. However, I believe State superannuation fund ; and to make that New South Wales is on the threshold provisions consequential upon or ancillary of the greatest forest development known to the foregoing. in this State, and the advancement does As mentioned, the principal object is not come too soon, in my opinion, because to consolidate in a single Act all the exist­ after all forestry is a very long-term busi­ ing statutory provisions relating to the uni­ ness, as has been disclosed in the House versity which are relevant, with amend­ tonight. ments to meet current needs. The bill, I welcome the interest of the Common­ therefore, for its greater bulk, is a re­ wealth.· Funds have been provided. We statement of much of the existing law, with had hoped and pressed for grants. What such amendments and addi.tions as are con­ we have been given is what the Common­ sidered to be necessary and desirable for wealth calls repayable grants ; we choose the university's effective operation in cur­ to can them loans as we 'have to pay them rent times. At the second-reading stage back with interest. There is no doubt that I shall outline to honourable members in if the Commonwealth would act in this greater detail the several features of the way more often and provide more funds bill. for useful projects of this sort, we would get along better. I have much pleasure in Mr DURICK (Lakemba) [10.03]: On commending this measure to the House. what the Minister has already said the Op­ Motion ·agreed to. position sees no reason to oppose the intro­ Bill read a second time. duction of

Incidentally, in Tasmania, the only other has boasted that he will be helping angling State of Australia which provides for a in this State, whereas he is increasing the short term fishing licence, the fees payable fees by 100 per cent. are $6 for a full season licence and $2 for a licence for fourteen days, whether a man Mr WILLIS: This bill does not increase or woman. Inland fishing is a sport keenly fees. followed by tourists. In fact, approximately one-third of licences issued are sold to Mr EARL: It enables the Minister to interstate visitors, and another one-third is alter the regulations so that he can increase sold to city dwellers. As we in New South fees. Wales are constantly endeavouring to en­ courage the tourist industry it is intended Mr WILLIS: On the contrary, the bill that the short term licence s·hould meet the reduces them. needs of tourists and so contribute as a stimulus to tourism. The casual angler Mr EARL: I do not think they are who does not wish to go to the expense of reduced. purchasing a licence for the whole twelve months will also appreciate the opportunity Mr WILLIS: The Act as it stands contains of obtaining a licence for a short period at power to enable the Minister to increase a reduced rate. fees, but it does not contain power to enable him to charge a short-term fee. T'his is a simple bill to remove what I might call some snags in the Fisheries and Mr EARL: I am not talking about Oyster Farms Act relating to licensing of short-term fees. However, I shall ihave a inland anglers. In commending the bill to word or two to say about them in a honourable members, it is appropriate to moment. The Minister tel,J us that this point out that the principles in this bill have measure has the support of anglers. What the support of the recently formed New has Mr Hank Newman, president of the South Wales Amateur Fishermen's Advisory Amateur Fishermen's Association of New Council which was set up to advise me on South Wales, to say about it in a letter to matters relating to amateur fishing, and so the Sydney Morning Herald that was pub­ I am confident that it will be welcomed by lished on Saturday, 31st August, 1968? He the angling public and will encourage more makes two accusations or statements that people to engage in the sport of inland intrigue me. First he says: fishing. Currently any funds allocated for the im­ Mr EARL (Bass Hill) [10.15]: At the provement of salt water fishing ... introductory stage I intimated that, from Mr WILLis: The bill deals ~ith inland the few remarks then made by the Chief fishing, not salt water fishing. Secretary, the Opposition would probably find the provisions of the bill to be quite Mr EARL: Let me finish reading the acceptable. Unfortunately it was not long sentence. The Minister is trying to tell me before a fishy odou< was noticeable in the what is in a sentence that he has not yet Minister's second-reading speech. Indeed heard. what the Minister has called a simple bill will actually be an increased taxation bill. Mr WILLIS: So fa.r the honourable mem­ This is what it is ; nothing else. It is an­ ber has not spoken about the bill. other of such actions by the high-taxation Liberal-Country Pa·rty Government. This Mr EARL: The Minister is nagging is a very different tune to the fraudulent away. I understand that theTe is an amend­ boast of these people that they would do ment to the Dog Act to come before the House soon. It might apply to the Minister. so much for the State without increasing He was heard in silence. He should listen taxes. Instead, increasing taxes in one to me in silence while I complete the sen­ form or another has been a fuJ,l-time job tence that I had started to read in which for this Government. Tonight the Minister Mr Hank Newman said: Fisheries and Oyster [10 SEPT., 1968] Farms (Amendment) Bill 779

Currently any funds allocated for the im­ Mr EARL: I know the Minister is a provement of salt water fishing come either competent politician and makes terrific from the Inland Licence Fund or from general revenue. speeches, but let him make them one at a time. Tonight he has boasted about this I do not know whether that is true or not, part-time licence that he intends to intro­ but Mr Newman is a responsible citizen duce. and he has written a letter, signed it, and it has been published in a newspaper. Now Mr WILLIS: Short-term licence. let me come to the support that this pro­ Mr EARL: All right, short-term licence. posal has received. Mr Hank Newman It will cost a male $2 for twenty-one days had this to say about it in ·the letter that he and a female $1 for twenty-one days. wrote to the Sydney Morning Herald: Where does this magic figure of twenty-one The New South Wales Amateur Fisher­ days come from? This intrigues me. It is men's Association is strongly in favour of a supposed to help the holidaymaker but small licence fee. thousands of workers under State awards I emphasize the word "small". today have four weeks' annual leave. If No one is talking about $4.00 or about a his leave falls due over Christmas and licence fee for pensioners or children. These New Year, the worker has about five weeks' figures were thrown into the ring by Mr Daly leave. If his leave falls due over Easter, and other opponents of a licence fee to gain sympathy and create panic among anglers. again he is entitled to about five weeks' holiday. Any worker under a State award Mr HEALEY: He is talking about salt who has four weeks' annual leave cannot water licences. get any benefit from the short-term licence. This is a bit of a joke. The Minister is Mr EARL: He is not. ·telling the people that he is doing a magni­ ficent thing for them but the proposal does Mr HEALEY: Mr Daly was. I asked a not cover the award provision for holidays. question about this the other day. What advantage is there except, perhaps, to the fellow who flits into the State for a Mr EARL: I am teUing ·the honourable week or ten days? member that Mr Newman, the president of the association, is complaining about it. Mr HuMPHRIES: What about school­ teachers? They have a long period at Mr DEANE: This is purely a red herring. Christmas.

Mr EARL: The red herring is in the Mr EARL: There is an annual licence Minister's bill. He is misleading the public fee for them and this is to be jacked up 100 per cent. We of the Opposition say by bringing in what is really a bill to in­ that if the Government wants to have a crease taxation, to gain extra ·revenue for short-term licence, let it be for three months the Government. This is what the Min­ so that it will cover the peak period for ister is trying to do and what he is going angling. to do. Mr WILLIS: Why not make it eleven Mr WILLIS: I shall set the honourable months? member straight. Dan Daly wrote a letter Mr EARL: I am saying why I suggest to the Sydney Morning Herald, and this is three months. This would cover the peak Mr Newman's reply to Mr Daly. period of the angling season and it is rea­ sonable to say that a short-term licence Mr EARL: Mr Speaker, how many could be available for $2-the same cost as for a year under the old scheme. When the speeches does the Minister want to make? Minister speaks about $2 for twenty-one Mr SPEAKER: Order! The honourable days, it is rather expensive by comparison member for Bass Hill is entitled to be with the old charge of $2 per annum. Some­ heard in silence. one who is quick at arithmetic can work 780 Fisheries and Oyster [ASSEMBLY] Farms (Amendment) Bill out the percentage increase, which must cost basis. I do not think anyone in the run into several hundreds. The proposal is House can prove that the department would a shocking one and merely seeks to grab the issue a licence for less than 50 cents. Why person who wants to fish on a short-term take the money from an age pensioner or basis. Most fishermen do not fish all the service pensioner when the Government time in their annual holidays ; they fish will make nothing out of it? This will when the fish are biting. During the winter be taking money from someone who can when the fish do not bite readily most fisher­ ill afford it and the Government will be men give the game away. Only the fanatic getting no contribution for the fine things goes out during the winter. Our proposi­ that are being done in this field. tion is reasonable. The Minister has said that by giving females a fishing licence at Mr HEALEY: You could not call it a a rate of $2 per annum he will encourage revenue-producing bill, as you did a women to take up fishing. I can just see moment ago. the women of Bass Hill flocking into the Fisheries Branch with their $2 clutched in Mr EARL: Not as far as the pensioners their dainty little hands, clamouring for are concerned. I do not know how many licences to go fishing for twelve months. pensioners would have a fishing licence. Just imagine how rushed the Minister will Perhaps superannuated people would, but be ; he will have to put on extra staff to there would not be many age and service cope with the demand. Most of the ladies pensioners among them. It would be a fine that I have seen fishing have been keen gesture to relieve pensioners of this burden, fisherwomen. Those who are not keen though it is not a particularly heavy one. fisherwomen find other amusements. The The Government will get nothing out of Minister will have no chance of seeing it, so why go to all the bother when it will young ladies flocking into the Fisheries possibly be losing on the administrative Branch seeking a $2 licence for the full side? The Minister has said that increased year. administrative costs are the reason for The Minister has made a misjudgment. putting up the cost of the licences. Actu­ He claims that he will make a big conces­ ally the department must be losing money sion to pensioners by allowing their licence on the scheme. Everyone knows that it fee to remain at 50 cents a year. It would costs quite a sum to send out a letter from be fairer to give pensioners their licence an office: I have seen an estimate by man­ for nothing. There is a reason for my say­ agement consultants that it costs about 75 ing this ; I do not advance it merely be­ cents to send out a decent letter. I do not cause they are pensioners. By the time the know whether that is over-costing, but cer­ department processes an application and tainly the department cannot issue a licence issues a licence, it will cost the department for 50 cents. We of the Opposition suggest more than 50 cents. I do not think the that pensioners be given a licence for department can break even at a cost of nothing, or that they merely be required to 50 cents. When a pensioner applies for produce their age pension cards on demand. a fishing licence the department will post This is the easy way out. him out an application form. That will The Opposition looks upon the bill as a cost 5 cents in postage. That is 10 cents taxing one, a move to raise more revenue. straight away. We realize the necessity to improve inland fishing and to carry on the research work Mr HEALEY: It will save a lot of em­ that was started by the previous Govern­ barrassment with inspectors. ment. This Government is continuing that good work ; it is speeding it up, but the Mr EARL: Why not let the person pro­ fact is that the more complex preliminary duce his age pension card? As a matter of investigations had already been done. I fact, the Government cannot make any recall several years ago looking at a couple money out of the 50 cents. It will possibly of research stations which had succeeded in be losing, if the matter is worked out on a producing conditions conducive to the Fisheries and Oyster [10 SEPT., 1968] Farms (Amendment) Bill 781 breeding of freshwater fish in ponds. Once same as everyone else. His government the initial stages are past, much better made no provision for short-term licences, progress can be made in this sort of re­ but under the bill an angler may obtain a search. The Opposition believes that the short-term licence that will permit him to increases in licence fees are far too high: fish for twenty-one days, at a cost of $2. the average angler will not be agreeable to Previously a short-term angler would have them. My colleagues and I can see no had to pay the full licence fee for the year. advantage to the angler in the introduction At least we are helping these people. I of short-term licences. If there are to be commend the bill, and I believe that the short-term licences, they should be for a higher fees will increase th!e ability of the three-month period. Even 50 per cent of fisheries authorities to give bigger and better the licence fee for the year is still expen­ service to the inland anglers. sive, but I believe they would be willing to accept it. However, for the reasons I have Mr CAHILL (Cook's River) [10.32]: mentioned, we intend to oppose the bill. I support the arguments advanced by the !:lonourab~e member for Bass Hill, who led Mr MAUGER (Monaro) [10.30]: for the Opposition. The Minister claimed Obviously the honourable member for Bass that the bill had two main objects', but he Hill, who led for the Opposition, is not a omitted to mention its third and most im­ country member and would not know much portant object-to raise funds for the Gov­ about trout fishing and the organization of ernment. T'his impost is similar to the the trout fishing industry. The licence fee previous imposts by the Government ; I has been unaltered for ten years. Everyone have in mind third-party insurance in­ knows what improvements had been made creases, increased parking fines, increased in this industry up to four or five years stamp duties, and other increases. ago--nil. However, since the present Gov­ Much has been said about short-term ernment has been in office a wonderful im­ licences and the $2 fee for females. I provement has taken place, especially as a suppose that, as a result of the Minister's result of the raising of fingerlings in the actions, wives will be going fishing while hatchery in my electorate. All the work their husbands stay at home to mind the that has been done by the fisheries branch children. Irrespective of what the Minister has tended to ma:ke fishing an important says, the increase from $2 to $4 is an in­ tourist feature of my area, and the release crease of 100 per cent. The Minister con­ of fingerlings from the hatcheries has tends that the short-term licence will suit been welcomed by the anglers. Fisher­ the tourists. He said, also, that many city men now know that they stand a fair chance dwellers would take out these angling of catching something. licences. I submit that, as many city I was surprised to hear the honourable dwellers can go away only at weekends member for Bass Hill talking about pen­ during the restricted fishing season, it would sioners, especially at his government im­ posed on them the licence fee of 50 cents. be quite logical for the Minister, if he is The Government is merely carrying on genuine in offering short-term licences, to what was done in this respect by the Labor accept the Opposition's suggestion that the Government. After stating that there had licence be effective for three months. This been a vast improvement in inland fishing, will meet the requirements of a person who the honourable member promptly tore the can get away only at weekends. He at least Government to pieces for increasing the will have an opportunity of benefiting from licence fee, which he knows will lead to greater improvement in inland fishing. This this so-called concession. increase will be well spent on work that Another point I wish to raise relates to will be appreciated by the anglers. The competitors taking part in a fishing com­ member for Bass Hill did not mention that petition or carnival. Does this new legisla­ no provision was made by his government tion mean that they must pay $2 to take to benefit the female anglers, who paid the out an inland angling licence? Is this a 782 Fisheries and Oyster [ASSEMBLY] Farms (Amendment) Bill fair imposition on fishermen? The Govern­ point where expenditure exceeded income, ment is always speaking about decentraliza­ we delayed increasing fees so that we could tion to assist country areas-- introduce some concession for anglers who might otherwise feel that they had been vic­ Mr WILLis: This is the present law, made tims of an unfair increase. We decided to by your government. do both things at the one time. Particularly did we have in mind those who are only Mr CAHILL: Yes, but your Government casual anglers. The Government cannot by is increasing the licence fee. regulation provide for either short-term licences at a reduced rate, or a lower rate Mr WILLIS: Not under this bill. for women. Therefore it was necessary to introduce this bill. All the bill does is to Mr CAHILL: If a fishing competition ex­ permit the making of regulations for short­ tends over a month, and some competitions term licences and for a rate for women do, what does an intending competitor have different from that for men. to do? Mr Dan Daley, a prominent fisher­ man, has been associated with and has Mr EINFELD: It also increases licence organized many competitions that have fees. extended over three weeks. Mr WILLIS: It does not increase licence Mr WILLIS: Mostly saltwater competi­ fees. If it were to do so it would have re­ tions. quired a message from the Governor: it would be a taxation matter. I assure the Mr CAHILL: A lot of saltwater anglers Deputy Leader of the Opposition that that are concerned at the actions of the Minister is not the purpose of this bill. It merely and the Government, and feel this is just permits regulations to be introduced for the the forerunner to licences for saltwater reduction of licence fees in the two circum­ anglers. People are most apprehensive stances•! have outlined. It does not in any about this. I feel the Minister's intention way whatever increase licence fees. An in­ in introducing ·this bill is purely to increase crease can be imposed by regulation under revenue for his department. Already he has the existing Act, and merely as a courtesy increased the number of inspectors, and so to honourable members, so they would see licence fees will have to be increased to the whole problem in its full context, I men­ pay inspectors to police those licences. The tioned in the course of my second-reading Minister hopes that this legislation will come speech that it is intended to increase by into force by 1st October. We are fortunate regulation under the existing Act, the fee that the provisions in the bill are not retro­ for a twelve-month licence. spective. However, this is not part of vhe bill, so it is completely incorrect for the honour­ Mr WILLIS (Earlwood), Minister for able member for Bass HiJ,l and the hon­ Labour and Industry, Chief Secretary and ourable member for Cook's River to say Minister for Tourism [10.37], in reply. I that it is a measure to increase taxation. am afraid the honourable member for Bass The bill does not increase taxation ; it Hill and to a large extent the honourable provides a means fo.r reducing taxation. member for Cook's River have both missed The honourable member for Bass Hill re­ the point of this bill, either accidentally or ferred to pensioners, and I shall be happy intentionally. Once more let me explain to look at the point he has raised as there that it would have been possible for the seems to be some merit in it. However, Government to increase the annual inland let me point out that when the principal fishing licence fee simply by regulation Act was first amended at the instigation under the Act of Parliament passed during of the previous Labor government back the term of the previous Labor Govern­ in 1957 to provide for an inland fishing ment. We could have done this long ago, licence fee, no concession whatever was had our sole objective been to raise revenue. given to pensioners or the like. They were Even when rising costs, increased to the required to pay precisely the same annual Fisheries and Oyster [10 SEPT., 1968] Farms (Amendment) Bill 783 fee as any other fisherman-ma·le, female, Mr CAIDLL: For $2? pensioner, casual or regular. It was in 1960 that the provision was introduced Mr WILLIS: Yes, but he has to take out into the legislation to enable a reduction a licence for a whole year. Under this bill to be made for pensioners and the like, he will be abJe to get a short-term licence, .and at that time, by regulation, the Labor and that is one of the main purposes of the Government fixed the fee for pensioners at 50 cents. Let me say that the honour­ measure. able member for Bass Hill was a supporter of that Government for the following five Question-That this bill be now read a years, and I do not remember that he ever second time-put. The House divided: got up in this House and suggested that the fee should be reduced or eliminated in the AYES, 49 case of pensioners. However, now that Mr Barraclough Mr Jago he has made the suggestion I am willing Mr Jack Beale MrLewis to have a look at it. MrBrewer MrMcCaw MrBrown MrMcGinty There is no need for me to comment MrBruxner MrMackie on the irrelevancies raised by the honour­ Mr Chaffey Mr Maddison MrClough Mr Mason able member for Cook's River regarding a Mr Coates Mr Mauger saltwater fishing Hcence fee. This is quite Mr Coleman MrMead outside •the scope of the bill and is, I am MrCowan Mr Morris sure, nothing more than a red herring, if MrCrawford Mr Morton Mr Cutler Mr Mutton I may use a fishing term, to confuse the MrDeane Mr O'Keefe issue. The bill has nothing to do with salt­ Mr Doyle MrOsborne water fishing licences. As I said in answer Mr M. J. Dunbier MrPunch to a question in the House recently, I have Mr R. A. Dunbier Mr Ruddock Mr Duncan Mr Stephens nothing before me about, nor have I given Mr Fife MrTaylor any consideration to, the introduction of Mr Freudenstein MrWaddy a saltwater fishing licence. Mr Griffith MrWalker MrHough MrWillis I conclude by reiterating that I men­ Mr Hughes MrWotton tioned the increase in the licence fee, which Mr Humphries Tellers, Mr Hunter MrCameron can be done ·by regulation, merely as an Mr Jackett Mr Healey indi,cation of the overall picture. This can be done by regulation, and it is the inten­ NoEs, 35 tion of the Government that it wiU be done MrBannon Mr Kearns by regulation effective on 1st October next. Mr Bedford Mr L. B. Kelly MrBooth Mr R. J. Kelly All that the bill does is the very opposite MrBowen Mr McCartney of that: it enables two types of reductions MrCoady MrMahoney to be made, which under the present legisla­ MrCox Mr Mannix MrCrabtree Mr Neilly •tion are not possible. When this bill is MrDegen MrPetersen passed it will be possible to bring down pro­ Mr Durick MrQuinn MrEarl MrRyan visions which will enable women to pay Mr Einfeld Mr Sheahan a lower Jicence fee than men and will en­ Mr Ferguson Mr Simpson MrHaigh Mr Sou thee able the casual angler to obtain a short­ Mr Hills Mr J. J. T. Stewart term licence instead of being required, as Mr Jackson Mr K. J. Stewart Mr Jensen Tellers, he is at present, to obtain a licence for a Mr Johnstone Mr Cahill full twelve months. If a fisherman enters Mr Jones MrGrassby a competition, as the honourable member Question so resolved in the affirmative. for Cook's River mentioned, for one day he is at present required to take out a Motion agreed to. licence for twelve months. Bill read a second time. 784 Fisheries Bill [ASSEMBLY] Adjournment

COMMITTEE AND ADOPTION OF REPORT needs of his department, and they would Bill reported from Committee without be included in the planning scheme. After amendment, and report adopted on motion the time for notifying objections to the by Mr Willis. scheme had expired and when, in fact, the commissioner was hearing objections to the scheme, the department wrote to the coun­ ADJOURNMENT cil informing it that it would require more land and the owners would be advised in TEMPE JUNIOR BOYS IDGH SCHOOL AND the near future. PRIMARY SCHOOL Mr WILLIS [10.54]: I move: This meant that the owners had no chance That this House do now adjourn. to object to the proposal by the Depart­ ment of Education and their homes were Mr CAHILL (Cook's River) [10.54]: immediately put in jeopardy. Marrickville I wish to bring up a matter that is causing council called a public meeting. Some 200 a number of my constituents in the Tempe people attended and expressed their con­ area grave concern. It involves a proposal cern and objection to the department's pro­ by the Department of Education to resume posal. After this meeting the Minister re­ thirty-five homes to make possible an ex­ ceived a deputation which put a number of tension of the sites occupied by the Tempe alternative proposals before him. One was Junior Boys High School and the primary the site of Waterworth Park, adjacent to school. The site is in two parts. One area Tempe railway station, an area of about to be resumed adjoins the secondary school, twenty acres. This land was reclaimed as and another area ad1oins the primary park land but is not used for that purpose. school. It is the area in proximity to the primary school that I wish to discuss to­ A further 20 acres in Bayview A venue, night. The proposal, which will affect homes owned by the Department of Public Works, in Foreman, Brooklyn and Union streets is also vacant. The residents feel that and in Unwin's Bridge Road, was recently either of these areas would make suitable the subject of correspondence between the school sites and release their homes from Department of Education and Marrickville this threat of resumption. It was pointed Municipal Council. On 5th February of out that the cost of resuming the homes on this year the council received a letter from the department in which it was said that the last valuation of a couple of years ago ministerial approval had been given for was $288,900. This would provide an extending considerably both the sites I 'have area of 3t acres. In all, with these 3! mentioned so that the department could acres added to the existing school site, only meet urgent current and future needs. It 8 or 9 acres would be available at the pre­ mentioned also among other things that sent location whereas the alternative sites the State Planning Authority of New South would give at least 20 acres and would be Wales had been requested to arrange for much more suitable for school purposes. the correct zoning of the land involved. The residents felt that as the school popu­ The Marrickville planning scheme was lation was dwindling in the area it was on exhibition for the required time, and hardly right that their homes should be objections called for. The time for object­ demolished to make provision for children ing expired late last year. All government travelling from other areas. They believe departments were invited to indicate their that they should be allowed to live in their needs to the council so that the zoning homes without this threat of resumption. could be adjusted accordingly. In a letter I ask the Minister to look into this matter. dated 24th October, 1966, the Minister for He has the power to vary the decision. The Education informed me that he had notified letter from the secretary of the department the Marrickville Municipal Council of the to the Marrickville council indicated that Adjournment [10 SEPT., 19.68] Adjournment 785 ministerial approval of this matter had of these is in relation to the Tempe Primary been given. In view of the concern ex­ School. The honourable gentleman, leading pressed by the residents I ask the Minister the deputation, suggested some alternatives to reconsider the matter to ascertain which he again mentioned tonight. I did whether it is possible to use the alternative sites that I have suggested tonight. not recognize the name of the park to which he referred: I had Wolli Park in Mr CUTLER (Orange), Deputy Pre­ my notes. Probably there is some misinter­ mier, Minister for Education and Minister pretation of the name of the park. That for Science [10.58]: Before the honourable area was suggested ·by some members of member raised this matter I had before the deputation when they saw me. My me on my desk a letter, which I had al­ officers, when they considered acquisition ready signed, relating to the proposal. It is true that some time ago I received a of that area, found that it was unsuitable deputation from the Marrickville Munici­ for any future development. Apart from pal Council and other interested people in anything else, an expressway will go the area. The deputation was led by the through it in the future. honourable member for Cook's River. Cer­ tain alternative proposals to those presented The honourable member mentioned at the by the department were put to me. I am deputation, and again tonight, an area of afraid that, in the metropolitan area es­ 20 acres of land owned by the Department pecially, we have reached the stage where of Public Works. My information at this a large number of schools are by present­ stage is that the Department of Public day standards totally inadequate in area. Works does not own any acceptable land It is ·rather a distressing responsibility of within a reasonable distance of the school. the officers of the department and finally He made new points tonight, and reiterated of myself to acquire properties-in some his statement that the Department of cases house properties-in order ·to build Public Works owns some 20 acres of land up schools in various older established in the vicinity. I shall withhold the letter areas of Sydney. that I was going ·to send him tomorrow and have investigations made of his state­ Honourable members on both sides of the ments tonight to see whether, in fact, any House, regardless of the political party that other land is available. I can only say to they represent, must accept some respon­ the honourable gentleman, and to other sibility in this matter. Either they want honourable gentlemen who represent these adequate schooling in their electorates or closely developed city areas, that if they they wish to protect the interests of the want schools developed in their areas, they few people who live on land surrounding must face their responsibility, as I must do, the school. It is distressing for me per­ of acquiring land in the area that has been sonally and for the officers of the depart­ developed by way of housing for a long ment to have to acquire or even ultimately period of ·time. If it is not found to resume properties in which people have possible-- lived for many years, but it is the respon­ sibility of the Department of Education to Mr SPEAKER: Order! The debate having provide not only schools for present-day proceeded for ten minutes, under the ses­ children, but also schools adequate in area sional order adopted this day the House for the children of the future. now stands adjourned until tomorrow at Finally, decisions on these matters must half past two o'clock p.m. be taken, particularly in the older suburbs where some difficult situations arise. One House adjourned at 11.4 p.m. 50