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Mayer Relles: Oral History Transcript www.wisconsinhistory.org/HolocaustSurvivors/Relles.asp Name: Mayer Relles (1908 – 1995) Birth Place: Skalat, Poland Arrived in Wisconsin: 1951, Superior Project Name: Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Mayer Relles Biography: Mayer Relles was born in Skalat, Poland, on June 2, 1908, to a family that was beginning to shed some of the constraints of Orthodox Judaism. As a promising young Talmudic scholar, Mayer traveled to other countries when quotas were imposed upon Jews in Polish schools. He was ordained in 1932. Mayer enrolled for advanced studies at the rabbinical seminary in Rome in 1933 and moved to Venice to accept a rabbinical appointment in 1936. After the Fascist Italian government entered the war, he was arrested in June 1940, briefly interned in a concentration camp, and released a few months later. For the next three years, he worked in the Jewish community in Venice and pursued his studies in the neighboring city of Padua. In addition to his rabbinical studies, he received a Ph.D. in Italian Literature and Philosophy in 1941. After the Germans occupied Italy in September 1943, Rabbi Relles went into hiding. He tried escaping into neutral Switzerland, but was arrested near the border. He was incarcerated in the city of Como, Italy, until the Italian Underground helped him escape to Milan. Mayer spent several months there before successfully escaping into Switzerland in April 1944. Rabbi Relles lived in Switzerland until September 1945, when he returned to Venice. From 1946 to 1951, he served Jewish communities in the Italian cities of Ancona and Trieste and completed his advanced rabbinical studies in Padua. The rabbi and his wife moved to the U.S. in 1951. Rabbi Relles held teaching positions and rabbinical posts in the Chicago area and in Superior, Wisconsin. From 1971 to 1976, he returned to Italy to serve as chief rabbi of Trieste. He later served as the spiritual leader at Anshe Poale Zedek synagogue in Manitowoc, Wisconsin. Rabbi Relles wrote a long manuscript account of his experiences in Italy during World War II and his escape to Switzerland in April 1944. It is available in the Wisconsin Historical Society library. Rabbi Mayer Relles died in 1995. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 1 of 181 Wisconsin Historical Society Mayer Relles: Oral History Transcript www.wisconsinhistory.org/HolocaustSurvivors/Relles.asp Audio Summary: Below are the highlights of each tape. It is not a complete list of all topics discussed. Tape 1, Side 1 • Family and childhood in Skalat, Poland Tape 1, Side 2 • Family's religious life in Skalat • Description and history of Skalat Tape 2, Side 1 • Teenage years • Religious practices in Poland in the 1920s Tape 2, Side 2 • Leaving home to study in Lemberg (or Lviv, Ukraine), 1926–1927 Tape 3, Side 1 • Student life at different schools in Lemberg Tape 3, Side 2 • Difficulties in school • Service in the Polish army, 1932 Tape 4, Side 1 • Anti-Semitism in the Polish army • Accepted to rabbinical college in Rome, 1933 • Moving to Italy Tape 4, Side 2 • Rabbinical studies in Rome, 1933-1936 • Life in Rome under Italian Fascism Tape 5, Side 1 • Rome's Jewish community in the 1930s • Accepts appointment in Venice, 1937 Tape 5, Side 2 • Jewish community in Venice in the 1930s • Italy's lack of anti-Semitic laws before the late 1930s Tape 6, Side 1 • Life in Venice, 1937-1943 • Outbreak of war and persecution of Jews • Awareness of concentration camps • Escaping arrest, 1943 Tape 6, Side 2 • Moving to Padua, 1940 • Arrest and internment at Campagna, 1940 Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 2 of 181 Wisconsin Historical Society Mayer Relles: Oral History Transcript www.wisconsinhistory.org/HolocaustSurvivors/Relles.asp Tape 7, Side 1 • Transferred to concentration camp at Ferramonti , 1940 • Comparing German and Italian camps Tape 7, Side 2 • Conditions at Ferramonti are comparatively benign • Continuing studies and teaching while imprisoned Tape 8, Side 1 • Release from Ferramonti , December 1940 • Student life at Padua, 1940-1943 Tape 8, Side 2 • Community work in Venice, 1940–1943 • Kindness of Italians toward persecuted Jews • Invasion of the Germans, September 1943 Tape 9, Side 1 • Going underground, autumn 1943 • Arrested while trying to leave Italy • Imprisoned at Swiss border Tape 9, Side 2 • Camerlate prison, 1943–1944 Tape 10, Side 1 • Escape from Camerlate prison • Meeting Italian Underground in Milan • Hiding in Milan psychiatric hospital Tape 10, Side 2 • Life in Milan psychiatric hospital • Escape to Switzerland, April 1944 About the Interview Process: The interview was conducted by archivist Jean Loeb Lettofsky on October 12, 13, and 25, 1980. The three sessions totaled 10 hours. They cover Rabbi Relles’ early life and wartime experiences up to his 1944 escape into Switzerland. He did not discuss his postwar life, immigration to the U.S., or the Jewish communities he served in Chicago, Superior, or Manitowoc. Audio and Transcript Details: Interview Dates • Oct 12, 1980; Oct 13, 1980; Oct 25, 1980 Interview Location • Relles home, Madison, Wisconsin Interviewer • Archivist Jean Loeb Lettofsky Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 3 of 181 Wisconsin Historical Society Mayer Relles: Oral History Transcript www.wisconsinhistory.org/HolocaustSurvivors/Relles.asp Original Sound Recording Format • 10 qty. 60-minute audio cassette tapes Length of Interviews • 3 interviews, total approximately 10 hours Transcript Length • 181 pages Rights and Permissions • Any document may be printed or downloaded to a computer or portable device at no cost for nonprofit educational use by teachers, students and researchers. Nothing may be reproduced in any format for commercial purposes without prior permission. Pictures: WHI Image ID 58294 WHI Image ID 57110 WHI Image ID 57112 WHI Image ID 57115 WHI Image ID 57119 WHI Image ID 57120 Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 4 of 181 Wisconsin Historical Society Mayer Relles: Oral History Transcript www.wisconsinhistory.org/HolocaustSurvivors/Relles.asp Transcript The following transcript is from the collections of the Wisconsin Historical Society Archives. It is an unedited, firsthand account of the Nazi persecution of the Jews before and during World War II. Portions of this interview may not be suitable for younger or more sensitive audiences. It is unlawful to republish this text without written permission from the Wisconsin Historical Society, except for nonprofit educational use. Key JL Jean Loeb Lettofsky, Wisconsin Historical Society archivist MR Mayer Relles, Holocaust survivor TAPE 1, SIDE 1 JL: Let's start with your family background. Could you tell me your date and place of birth, the names of your parents and grandparents and their dates and if possible, their dates and places of birth? MR: Well, I was born June 2, 1908. My father, Nachman Relles he was-. I don't remember exactly the date of his birth, but I know he was from Jagielnica in Galicia, not far from Chortkov, if you heard about the Chortkov Rebbe. A very small town. My mother was born in Russia, Leah Herscher, H-E-R-S-C-H-E-R, Herscher. My father was a carpenter by trade. In our town and in all the neighboring town, to my knowledge, an artisan like such as carpenter, shoemaker, tailor, smith, and so on, this was the lowest profession. It was like, for example, in our town, a man, if he stole, if he was a crook, a swindler, everything was apparent. He could marry his children if they were nice. He count and have a nice aliyah1 in the synagogue. And he was, He could have been somebody, especially if he had money. My father as a carpenter, was the lowest like all the other, the shoemakers and tailor and so on. A smuggler was good. JL: What was the reason? MR: This is the bal melokhe.2 You know what the bal melokhe is? Bal melokhe. This was the worst thing. And I remember years later when he put his trade away and he became a builder, but he was never forgiven for having been a carpenter. He had wonderful girls, pretty ones, learned, nice, but he had very few 1 Hebrew for being called before the congregation for a Torah reading. 2 Yiddish for ‘artisan’. Oral Histories: Wisconsin Survivors of the Holocaust Page 5 of 181 Wisconsin Historical Society Mayer Relles: Oral History Transcript www.wisconsinhistory.org/HolocaustSurvivors/Relles.asp chances to- yes, they could have married from the lower — how do they call it in India? The caste. We practically had castes. This was, of course, a doctor was the highest; a rabbi was good; a melamed3 was still good; a businessman was very good. Our businesspeople it — there is too much to talk about, the business in our town. Everything was okay. But my father, when he came to the synagogue, it was "Nachman Stolyer,"4 and they never would say "Nachman Relles." And my father was- it sickened him because he was a man, he had his ambition. He would have liked to be called “Nachman Relles.” No, they would always say "Nachman Stolyer." And I grew up under these conditions. JL: Let me just go back a moment to my first question, and tell me the place of your birth? MR: I was born in Skalat, it is close to the Russian border, five minutes. We would say, I would say three hundred meters from the Russian border. This was Austria when I was born. In 1920, it became Poland. In 1939 Russia occupied it until Lemberg5 and it became Russia. And now it is, it remains Russia. We lived, in 1914, when the war broke out, because we were close to the border, because it was a place where there could have been a fight, which means trenches and there was a river, and because the Russians they always suspected Jews, virtually, I mean, rightly suspected that the Jews were Austrian patriots, they considered us as spies, as betrayers.