Wednesday Volume 554 5 December 2012 No. 81

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 5 December 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 849 5 DECEMBER 2012 850

Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): House of Commons Youthunemployment is an escalating problem in Northern Ireland. Last week, I hosted an event with Invest Northern Wednesday 5 December 2012 Ireland to give young people the skills that they need to get into employment. Does the Minister agree that The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock young people who are unemployed and marginalised, particularly those in areas of deprivation, can fall prey to unacceptable activity? Will he join me in condemning PRAYERS the major and reprehensible decisions of two councils in Northern Ireland last week—Newry and Mourne, [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] and Belfast—that could worsen the situation and send us down into a cycle of unemployment and deprivation, Oral Answers to Questions rather than lift us out of it? Mike Penning: As you can imagine, Mr Speaker, I will not be drawn into comments on individual decisions NORTHERN IRELAND taken by local authorities in Northern Ireland. However, it is not all bad news. There are in excess of 11,000 youngsters in apprenticeships in Northern Ireland on The Secretary of State was asked— more than 100 apprenticeship schemes. That is good news for them and we should not denigrate the good Youth Unemployment work that they are doing.

1. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What her Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): First, will the Minister policy is on tackling youth unemployment in Northern join me in condemning the violence in Belfast on Monday Ireland. [130904] evening, which was wrong, unacceptable and without justification? The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike Penning): Specific measures to tackle youth unemployment Does the Minister agree that young people will be the in Northern Ireland are the responsibility of the Northern force behind further progress in Northern Ireland? What Ireland Executive. The Government’s efforts to reduce specific measures have he and the Northern Ireland the largest structural deficit in our peacetime history Office asked the Chancellor to include in the autumn and set the country back on the path of sustainable statement to tackle youth unemployment in Northern economic recovery will attract growth and help young Ireland? people throughout the United Kingdom. Mike Penning: The shadow Secretary of State is Ann McKechin: Given that almost one in five young trying to draw me into territory that is way above my people in Northern Ireland are currently unemployed, pay grade. Like the rest of the House and the country, I is it not time for the Minister to consider a national will wait to hear the autumn statement. insurance break for small employers, which are predominant I join the shadow Secretary of State and shadow in the private economy in Northern Ireland, to allow Minister in saying that what happened the other night them to take on young people and get them back to was fundamentally wrong. Police and security officers work? were assaulted and battered while just doing their job. People may not have liked what was said and done in Mike Penning: There will be a statement, believe it or the council chamber, but it was done in a democratic not, later in the day in which the Chancellor sets out our way. economic measures—the autumn statement. I know that the hon. Lady speaks in good faith and cares about Vernon Coaker: From what the Minister has said, it this problem, but it is not something that suddenly appears that the Northern Ireland Office has asked the happened when the coalition Government came into Chancellor to include absolutely nothing in the autumn power, or when the Northern Ireland Executive came statement to tackle youth unemployment in Northern into power; youth unemployment started to rise quite Ireland. The Minister and the Secretary of State have to quickly in 2004 when her Government were in power, realise that the Government have a duty to young and that was in a time of boom before it went bust people in Northern Ireland that must be met. More under the last Administration. than one in five young people in Northern Ireland are Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): Will the out of work. Westminster has a responsibility to act. Minister say what discussions have taken place with There has been no action from the Government to date; Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive, apart from are we to get nothing in the autumn statement later the talks about corporation tax, about greater devolution today? When will the Minister and the Government get of economic levers to give the Northern Ireland Executive a grip, not only on the economy in the rest of the UK, greater authority in dealing with youth unemployment, but on youth unemployment in Northern Ireland? which currently stands at one in 20 of the population? Mike Penning: The hon. Gentleman, who is a friend Mike Penning: I meet Ministers in the Northern of mine, needs to get a grip on his comments and wait Ireland Executive regularly to talk about a range of for the autumn statement. He will then find out whether issues. They have not requested the devolution of specific we have done nothing or something. The autumn statement powers in this area, but if they do, we will listen to will clearly show what we have asked for and how much them. success we have had. Wait and see. 851 Oral Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 852

Inward Investment by the record deficit that we inherited from Labour. However, the Chancellor is very much aware of the 2. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What recent concerns about air passenger duty, and I have discussed discussions she has had with the Northern Ireland the matter with Treasury Ministers on several occasions. Executive on attracting inward investment. [130905] Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Coming back to the The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa wonderful city of Derry or Londonderry, one of the Villiers): Responsibility for inward investment is largely best examples of inward investment is the Invista, formerly a devolved matter, but the Government have assured DuPont, plant in my constituency. It won that investment Executive Ministers that we will work closely with them to be the only lycra-producing plant in Europe in worldwide and make every effort to help rebalance the Northern internal competition within the company. Its ability to Ireland economy and secure inward investment. win future such investment could be compromised by proposed changes in the EU’s REACH—registration, Fiona Bruce: The “Lonely Planet” guide has rated evaluation, authorisation and restriction of chemical Londonderry-Derry the fourth best city in the world to substances—legislation. Will the Secretary of State use visit in 2013—the only UK destination in its top 10. her position to influence her ministerial colleagues here Does my right hon. Friend agree that this could help to ensure that, at the Member State Committee meeting boost tourism and investment in Northern Ireland and next week, the UK resists those changes? support the Londonderry-Derry 2013 UK city of culture programme? Mrs Villiers: I am happy to work with ministerial colleagues to ensure that we get the right outcome on Mrs Villiers: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for REACH. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. that question. Derry-Londonderry will have a great Although the underlying purpose of that directive—to year next year, with its UK city of culture designation ensure that chemicals are handled safely—is laudable, it enabling it to project on the world stage what a brilliant would be counter-productive if it destroyed jobs and city it is. It is also hosting the Fleadh. Such events enterprise and simply exported them outside the European demonstrate that Northern Ireland is forward-looking, Union. I will therefore press my colleagues to ensure and a great place in which to invest. I was in Derry- that we get a sensible outcome, which will not have the Londonderry last week and I was particularly interested damaging impact that the hon. Gentleman fears, on in the plans for Digital Derry and the boost that the REACH. chamber of commerce wants to give the local economy. Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): This is an unusual Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): One of request, but I shall make it anyway. As part of the the main tools used to attract business into the United inward investment power of the G8 summit in Fermanagh Kingdom is regional aid. On future regional aid guidelines, next June, will the Secretary of State kindly meet my will the Secretary of State support our efforts to have all constituent, Mr Peter Meanley, who is a very distinguished of Northern Ireland eligible for regional aid, just as we craftsman and wishes to make beautifully glazed Toby support the UK Government’s efforts to allow support jug replicas of all eight Heads of Government and to continue for larger companies? State? It is an usual request, but will the Secretary of State please my constituent and the North Down MP Mrs Villiers: I believe that it is important that Northern by granting it? Ireland continues to be able to offer regional aid, given the history of its economy. I have met Arlene Foster to Mrs Villiers: I would be happy to meet the hon. discuss how I can help the Northern Ireland Executive’s Lady’s constituent. It sounds as though he has an efforts to persuade the Commission, when it makes excellent project. Over the coming months, the Government decisions on assisted area status, that the interests of will work hard to ensure that Northern Ireland gets the Northern Ireland and its economy should be properly maximum possible benefits from the G8, which is an defended. opportunity to showcase Fermanagh and the whole of Northern Ireland as a brilliant place to visit as a tourist Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): Has the and a brilliant place in which to invest. Secretary of State had a chance to look at the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee report, published last week, Security Situation which identified air passenger duty as a stumbling block on the road to economic recovery in Northern 3. Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): What recent Ireland? Will she consider accepting our central assessment she has made of the security situation in recommendation and discussing with the Treasury and Northern Ireland; and if she will make a statement. the Northern Ireland Assembly the prospects of reducing [130906] air passenger duty on flights to and from Northern Ireland from Great Britain, or, preferably, removing 6. David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): What recent that tax altogether? assessment she has made of the security situation in Northern Ireland; and if she will make a statement. Mrs Villiers: My hon. Friend’s report is strong and he [130909] is right to consider the importance of transport links. The Government moved swiftly when the Northern 10. Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): What recent Ireland Executive requested devolution of long-haul air assessment she has made of the security situation in passenger duty. The possibility of reducing short-haul Northern Ireland; and if she will make a statement. air passenger duty in future is made difficult, of course, [130913] 853 Oral Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 854

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa after an IRA gunman, as Newry and Mourne district Villiers): The Government are committed to doing all council did the other day, and tearing down the national we can to keep people in Northern Ireland safe. The flag at civic buildings in Belfast, do nothing for community threat level in Northern Ireland remains severe but the relations and are deeply destabilising? Police Service of Northern Ireland and its partners are working with dedication and determination in their Mrs Villiers: As I have said, the flying of flags outside efforts to frustrate the attacks planned by terrorists. city hall is a matter for Belfast city council to decide. It is important that it is allowed to make that decision free Gareth Johnson: Northern Ireland is as much a part from any kind of intimidation, including riots outside. I of the United Kingdom as Dartford, so does the Secretary entirely join the right hon. Gentleman in condemning of State share my deep disappointment that the Union any attempts made to intimidate elected representatives flag will not fly continuously over Belfast city hall, and or politicians from whichever party. does she agree with the principle that no law should As to the decisions local authorities make on naming prevent the Union flag from flying anywhere in the playgrounds, I do not think it would be sensible or wise United Kingdom? for me to interfere in that discussion. We need to move towards a genuinely shared future in Northern Ireland, Mrs Villiers: I fully appreciate the strength of feeling where such sensitive decisions can be taken on the basis on the flying of flags, but nothing could possibly justify of reason and mutual respect for the points of view of the scenes of disorder witnessed outside city hall in different parts of the community. Belfast earlier this week. Yes, there are serious and significant sensitivities about flag flying, but these decisions Mr Dodds: I welcomed recently the Secretary of must be taken on the basis of sound, reasoned discussions State’s statement that she was not neutral on the Union. and democratic votes, and not as a result of mobs People in Northern Ireland will be disappointed that seeking to beat down the door of city hall. she cannot bring herself to condemn a decision to name a playground after an IRA gunman. A clear message David Rutley: Given the upcoming G8 summit at the needs to be sent out by the Secretary of State and the Loch Erne hotel near Enniskillen, which will be important House that such behaviour and gestures are deeply for the whole country and not just Northern Ireland, destabilising and very damaging to community relations, will my right hon. Friend assure the House that security especially with respect to those parents who will now plans are being drawn up to ensure that the summit is not take their children to a playground where they feel the success it truly deserves to be? intimidated.

Mrs Villiers: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. Mrs Villiers: I entirely respect the right hon. Gentleman’s Planning is already very much under way.The Government point of view, but I also totally respect the devolution are committed to working closely with the PSNI and its settlement, whereby a whole range of decisions are now partners to ensure that the policing and security operations made locally in Northern Ireland. It is not for the around the G8 are a success. Secretary of State to seek to interfere in those decisions, and I have no intention of doing so. Mel Stride: As we have heard, Londonderry will be the city of culture next year. Will my right hon. Friend Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): join me in congratulating the divisional commander of Once again this year disputed parades have led to the PSNI, Mr Stephen Martin, on the exemplary way in community tension and serious disorder. Has the Secretary which he and his officers have countered the terrorist of State recently held discussions with the First Minister threat locally so that we can look forward to a full and the Deputy First Minister about plans to devolve cultural programme next year in that city? the legal framework for parading in line with the agreement that they reached at Hillsborough castle in 2010? Mrs Villiers: I certainly join my hon. Friend in that. I met PSNI officers from Derry-Londonderry just a week Mrs Villiers: Parading has been one of the issues I or so ago. They do an incredibly good job in very have discussed with the First Minister, the Deputy First difficult circumstances with great bravery and dedication. Minister and other politicians in Northern Ireland. As They are determined to continue community policing the right hon. Gentleman points out, it was discussed as close to the community. They will not compromise on part of the devolution settlement. The Government that, but delivering it in the face of a continuing terrorist remain entirely open to a devolved solution on parading, threat, and continuing attempts to target and attack if the political parties in Northern Ireland can build a officers, is extremely difficult. I am only too happy to consensus to deliver it. join him in congratulating the police in Derry-Londonderry on the job they do. Afghanistan (Armed Forces Families)

Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The Secretary 4. David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): What of State will agree that there can be absolutely no practical support she can give to the families from justification at any time for attacks on police officers or Northern Ireland of those (a) serving in and (b) who anyone, or for threats to elected representatives. Those have returned from Afghanistan. [130907] of us who have been the subject of threats, assassination attempts and bombs in our constituency offices and The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike homes know that very well indeed—and we have no Penning): I pay tribute to our brave armed forces who time for it whatever. Further to a previous question, have served with such distinction in Afghanistan and does the Secretary of State agree that naming a playground other parts of the world. The MOD Service Personnel 855 Oral Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 856 and Veterans Agency and many other service charities Mike Penning: There are many ways in which we can provide support and services to our 900,000-strong support marriage within a tax allowance, and my hon. armed forces community and to their families. Friend will have to wait a little longer to hear exactly what is in the autumn statement—you never know, but David Simpson: I thank the Minister for his comments. we will wait and see. Will he agree to meet a group of families in my constituency who have loved ones serving in Afghanistan, so that Security (Cross-border Co-operation) they can raise some of the practical issues themselves?

Mike Penning: It will be a pleasure and an honour to 7. Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): meet the families in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. What recent assessment she has made of the level of We are working very closely with the brigadier and his cross-border security co-operation between the Police staff at 38 (Irish) Brigade to ensure that concerns are Service of Northern Ireland and An Garda Siochana; addressed. and if she will make a statement. [130910]

Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Members on The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa both sides of the House welcome the community covenant, Villiers): Co-operation between the PSNI and An Garda which is a long-overdue recognition of the heroic sacrifice Siochana has never been stronger. It has made a real of our armed forces. Have the Secretary of State or the difference in tackling terrorism and other forms of Minister given thought to naming an individual contact criminal activity. I have no doubt that it has saved lives. point for returning veterans—perhaps a community covenant champion, bearing it in mind that the Minister Jack Lopresti: I thank my right hon. Friend for her of State already has rather a busy job? answer. Will she assure the House that co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda covers not only Mike Penning: I thank the hon. Gentleman, and my terrorism, but other activities, such as organised crime, friend, for his comments. I have a very busy and a very that help to finance terrorism? With that in mind, will important job, but correctly looking after those who she tell us what recent discussions she has had with have served their country, which the military covenant counterparts in Dublin as part of our joint efforts to was designed to do, is exactly what I intend to do. I sit combat terrorism? on the Prime Minister’s military covenant committee. When I was asked that question in the military covenant Mrs Villiers: I have had discussions with the Irish debate, I committed to having a round-table discussion Justice Minister, Alan Shatter, the Garda Commissioner, on how we better help our servicemen and women when Martin Callinan, and the Taoiseach about the importance they leave the armed forces in Northern Ireland. of cross-border co-operation. As I said in my opening answer, that co-operation has never been stronger, and Mr Speaker: I have known the Minister of State for we are always open to options for deepening that 20 years, and I have never regarded him as softly spoken. co-operation in our joint fight against terrorism and May I exhort him to speak up a bit? criminality. Transferable Allowance (Married Couples) Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): After congratulating my right hon. the Member for Lagan Valley 5. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): What (Mr Donaldson) on reaching his 50th birthday, will the discussions she has had with the Chancellor of the Secretary of State tell us when she intends next to meet Exchequer on the likely positive effects on families in representatives from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs Northern Ireland of introducing a transferable to discuss how they will tackle fuel and cigarette smuggling allowance for married couples. [130908] on a cross-party basis? It is depriving her Government of billions of pounds in lost tax revenue. The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike Penning) rose— Mrs Villiers: I am happy to join the hon. Gentleman in wishing the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley Hon. Members: Come on! (Mr Donaldson) a happy birthday. I have met Treasury Ministers on many occasions, and my colleague, the Mike Penning: Well then, Mr Speaker! We are committed Minister of State, has recently met representatives from to finding ways, which were in the manifesto— HMRC and will be meeting them again soon. I am [Interruption.] You’ve got me going now, Mr Speaker. happy to do that as well. The Government are strongly Treasury Ministers have undertaken to consider a range committed to cracking down on tax evasion in all of options, some of which we might hear later, and forms. We have devoted £917 million, and—who knows?— make proposals to support marriage. further announcements on cracking down on tax evasion might be made later this afternoon. Jim Shannon: I thank the Minister for his response. My party and that of the Minister of State support a transferrable tax allowance. Marriage in Northern Ireland De Silva Report has risen by 15% since 2001, which reinforces its importance and relevance in today’s society. Does the Minister 8. Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): What agree that that must be reflected in the introduction of a representations she has received from the Finucane transferable tax allowance to allow family units to family in advance of the scheduled publication of the obtain the benefit, rather than be penalised? de Silva report on 12 December 2012. [130911] 857 Oral Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 858

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Dissident Republican Groups Villiers): I have not received any representations from the Finucane family since taking office, but my officials 9. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): What recent are in touch with the family’s legal advisers on the assessment she has made of the activities of dissident arrangements for publication of the de Silva review next republican groups. [130912] week. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa Valerie Vaz: I thank the Secretary of State for her Villiers): Attack planning by these terrorist groupings answer. It seems that we take a long time to bring justice continues. The level of threat in Northern Ireland remains to grieving families, and I am surprised that the Government at severe. These groups possess lethal intent and we have been involved in checking the de Silva report. How remain vigilant. The Police Service of Northern Ireland does she intend to bring justice for the death of Pat and its partners are working strategically to tackle the Finucane, given that the family have not been involved threat, to keep the people of Northern Ireland safe and in the review? secure. Bob Stewart: In view of the continuing activities of Mrs Villiers: I strongly believe that the de Silva the IRA under a new guise—the “new IRA”,and indeed review will reveal the truth. It has been a very serious the Continuity IRA—can my right hon. Friend assure exercise. One reason the Prime Minister and my predecessor me that she has done as much as humanly possible to chose the review process, as opposed to a public inquiry, identify long-term hides of weapons? was the experience of public inquiries taking many years. It would not have been right to wait that long or Mrs Villiers: The PSNI and its partners, including the for the family to have to wait another 12 years to get to Garda Siochana, are focused on suppressing terrorist the truth. The truth is what counts, and I am sure that activity. They are absolutely determined to keep people the de Silva review will reveal it next week. in Northern Ireland safe and secure. That means combating the efforts the terrorists are making to access weaponry, Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I whether by seeking to import them, steal them or access thank the Secretary of State for her premature, but hides from the past. This is an important priority for nevertheless welcome, birthday wishes. the PSNI, and it has the full support of Her Majesty’s The Secretary of State takes a great interest in the Government in the brilliant work it does on these Finucane case, but will she cast her mind to the families matters. of the 10 people murdered at Kingsmill in south Armagh, Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Dissident groups and will she note that one of the guns was found in have been responsible for bomb attacks on my party possession of Raymond McCreesh, after whom a play headquarters and party members. I thank the Secretary park in Newry has now been named—shamefully—by of State for the attention she gives to that issue. However, the Social Democratic and Labour party and others? the most recent attacks on my party colleagues and our Will she cast her mind to those innocent victims who party offices—our constituency offices and our staff—with today are hurt by the decisions of Newry and Mourne threats and intimidation, have come from loyalist sources. district council, which frankly are a disgrace? Will she confirm that all threats of politically motivated violence will be treated with the same vigour as dissident Mrs Villiers: It is important, both today in the House republican attacks? and next week when the de Silva review is published, to remember all the victims of the troubles. There were far Mrs Villiers: I was discussing this matter with David too many despicable murders and tragedies, and the Ford, the Minister of Justice, this morning. It is unacceptable focus on individual cases should not blind us to the if elected representatives or their staff are intimidated gravity of the suffering imposed on so many people in any way. I know that the Minister of Justice and the across so many years. We will be emphasising that next PSNI will continue to defend robustly the ability of week when we look at the Finucane case. [Interruption.] politicians in Northern Ireland to carry out their duties without intimidation. Mr Speaker: Order. I remind the House that we are discussing extremely serious matters of life and death, and it would be appreciated if the House would respond PRIME MINISTER accordingly.

Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): Does The Prime Minister was asked— the Secretary of State agree that the Finucane case is not just about truth but about justice, and that there is a Al-Qaeda need to follow through and obtain justice, as much as truth, for the Finucane family? Q1. [131413] Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): What his strategy is to deal with any re-emergence of al-Qaeda in Afghanistan after 2014. Mrs Villiers: Of course, the review is about finding the truth and obtaining justice, but whether prosecutions The Prime Minister: Before I answer my hon. Friend’s follow will, of course, be a matter for the prosecution question, I am sure the whole House would wish to join authorities, not the Government. [Interruption.] me in congratulating the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge on the wonderful news that they are expecting their first Mr Speaker: Order. Let us have some order for Mr Bob child. This is the perfect piece of news to end what has Stewart. been an extraordinary jubilee year. 859 Oral Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 860

Turning to my hon. Friend’s question on Afghanistan, The Prime Minister: I think this is a moment when we the threat to global security from the al-Qaeda presence should try to maximise the amount of consensus in this in Afghanistan has been significantly reduced. This is in House and in the country about what is required. large part the result of the brave work of UK, international Everyone agrees that we need strong, independent regulation security assistance force and Afghan armed forces. We along the lines that Leveson suggests. Everyone agrees remain committed to Afghanistan for the long term, that we need million-pound fines. Everyone agrees that and we will continue to support the development of the we need prominent apologies and independently handled Afghan national security forces after 2014 through complaints. This is absolutely vital, and I have been continued funding and involvement in training. Our encouraged by the meetings I have had with the editors continued contribution to aid and the political process, of national newspapers that they will put in place that combined with our armed forces’ efforts, underpin a Leveson-compliant regulation. We should continue the state that is capable of policing its own lands. It is by cross-party talks and make sure that we can deliver a this path that al-Qaeda will, I believe, be unable to regulatory system of which this House, this country re-establish itself in Afghanistan. and, above all, the victims can be proud. Dr Lewis: The Taliban have been told when most of Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): Let me our troops will be leaving, and they need to be told what join the Prime Minister in congratulating the Duke and sanctions to expect if they help al-Qaeda to return. Duchess of Cambridge on their very happy news. They What would those sanctions be and would an allied have the best wishes not just of this House but of the regional strategic base serve to make them credible? whole country. The Conservative party manifesto, published in April The Prime Minister: The most important sanction for 2010, said that everyone to bear in mind is the fact that the Afghan national security forces are already at a level of 335,000 “we will increase health spending in real terms every year.” and are increasingly capable and increasingly able to However, the head of the UK Statistics Authority says police and secure their own country, but of course we clearly and unequivocally that this has not happened. will continue to be involved, not least through the So what is today’s excuse? officer training academy we will establish. The Americans The Prime Minister: This Government are putting will have a strong relationship—as we will have a strong £12.6 billion extra into the NHS. Let me quote the right relationship—with the Government of Afghanistan, hon. Gentleman the figures directly from the head of and we will obviously want to help them in all the ways the Office for National Statistics. In real terms, spending we can to ensure that Afghanistan never again becomes in 2010 was £104.2 billion. In 2011, it was £104.3 billion a haven of international terror. in real terms. That is a real-terms increase, and I can tell Engagements the right hon. Gentleman that there will be further real-terms increases in 2012, in 2013 and in 2014, whereas Q2. [131414] Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) there would be cuts under Labour. (Lab/Co-op): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 5 December. Edward Miliband: Let me just say to the Prime Minister that, even by his standards, that was the most slippery The Prime Minister: This morning I had meetings answer we could possibly imagine. He is unbelievable. with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to He has come to this House 26 times since he became duties in my house—[Interruption]—I am sorry, in this Prime Minister and boasted about how he is increasing House. [Laughter.] You would have thought I’d got health spending every year of this Parliament—[HON. used to it by now. In addition to my duties in this House MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] Government Members are I shall have further meetings later today. cheering, but he has failed to meet that promise. This is not an argument between me and him; we have a ruling Seema Malhotra: I visited my critically ill constituent from the chair of the independent UK Statistics Authority Mrs Swaran Kaur Mudhar in hospital last week. There who says that that has not happened. I would be grateful were only two nurses on a ward of 30 very ill patients. if the Department of Health could clarify the statements She has asked me to ask the Prime Minister why he has made. Instead of his usual bluster, why does he not just cut the number of nurses. correct the record? The Prime Minister: The number of clinical staff in The Prime Minister: It is a very simple point. The our NHS since this Government came to power has spending figures for 2010 were set by the last Labour gone up, and the number of managers is significantly Government. Those are the figures we inherited. All the down, but as my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary right hon. Gentleman is doing is proving that his has said, we are not the slightest bit complacent. There Government were planning for an NHS cut. We have are parts of our NHS where standards of care and taken that figure in 2010, we have increased it in 2011 standards of nursing are not acceptable. That is why we and we will increase it again in every year of this are introducing things like the friends and family test to Parliament. People do not have to look at manifestos ensure that all hospitals come up to the highest standards for a contrast; they can look at what Labour is doing in of the best. Wales. The Labour party is in charge in Wales, and it has cut the NHS in Wales by 8%. As a result, waiting Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): Following times are up, waiting lists are down, quality is down. the publication of the Leveson report last week, does That is what you get with Labour and the NHS. my right hon. Friend agree that what we need is a strong, independent regulator, preferably without statutory Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister knows the underpinning? reality, which is that he made a promise about every— 861 Oral Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 862

The Prime Minister indicated dissent. The Prime Minister has not kept his promise on us all being in it together. Let us ask him about his central Edward Miliband: There is no point in him shaking promise. Two years ago, he said that by 2015 his head and getting annoyed. He made a promise that “we will have balanced the books.” he would keep the NHS budget rising in real terms in Can he explain why he is so badly failing to keep that every year of this Parliament. Labour’s plan, which we promise? set out at the election, was to increase the health budget in 2010-11, and he cut the budget. He knows the reality. The Prime Minister: First, let me give the right hon. Let me give him one more opportunity. He made a Gentleman the figures on the top rate of tax because it solemn promise to the British people of year-on-year is important. In 2009-10, 16,000 people were earning increases in the health budget, including in 2010-11. He more than £1 million, with a tax liability of £13 billion. failed to meet the promise. Come on, why don’t you just In 2010-11, when the rate went up, this plummeted to admit it? 6,000 people with a tax liability of £6.5 billion. Therefore, his 50p election gambit cost the country £7 billion. The Prime Minister: I do not know whether I need to When is he going to realise that setting tax rates is about remind the right hon. Gentleman that the general election raising money, not about punishing success? That is was after the 2010 year had begun. This was Labour’s what Labour needs to understand. plan, and what we have done is increase the budget In terms of the deficit, we have cut the Budget deficit every year. If he does not believe that, perhaps he will by 25%, and the right hon. Gentleman will be getting an listen to the Labour shadow Health Secretary, who gave update on progress from the Chancellor in a minute, but an interview in the New Statesman, when he said, about let me ask the right hon. Gentleman this: how on earth the Tories: can you deal with a borrowing problem by pledging to “They’re not ring-fencing it. They’re increasing it.” borrow more? He went on: Edward Miliband: Let us be clear about the Prime “Cameron’s been saying it every week in the Commons: ‘Oh, Minister’s answer on the 50p rate. His answer to the the shadow health secretary wants to spend less on health than us.’” problem of tax avoidance is to give the people doing it a tax cut. That is the answer he gave—give them another The question was asked: big giveaway. The reality that the Prime Minister could “Which is true, isn’t it?” not get away from is that the deficit is going up, not He said: down, on his watch. We all remember the posters, with his airbrushed face, saying, “Yes, it is true…that’s my point.” “I’ll cut the deficit, not the NHS.” There we have it, confirmed: it is official—Labour The facts speak for themselves: he has cut the NHS and wants to cut our NHS. It would never be safe with them he is not cutting the deficit. again. The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is Edward Miliband: No, the reality is that my right hon. 100% wrong: we are increasing spending on the NHS Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) left a and we are cutting the deficit. Yes, we have cut the rising health budget and this Prime Minister cut it—that deficit by 25%, there are a million more private sector is the reality. jobs, businesses are starting up at a higher rate than at Now, let me try the Prime Minister on another fact, any time in our history, this economy is on the right which I am sure he will be able to give to the House. Can track, we are equipping Britain for the global race and, he tell us how big an income tax cut he is giving next unlike the Labour party, we are on the side of people April to people earning over £1 million a year as a result who work hard and want to do the right thing. And of the reduction in the top rate of tax? what is the right hon. Gentleman’s answer? More borrowing, more spending, more of the things that got us into the mess in the first place. The Prime Minister: I am not surprised the right hon. Gentleman wants to get off health. That was the biggest own goal I think I have ever seen. Q3. [131415] Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): Three years ago, the NHS spent £500 million on On the issue of the top rate of tax, when the right Tamiflu without having seen all the data on hon. Gentleman’s Government put it up to 50p, what it effectiveness or safety. Given that, far from that being actually meant was that many fewer millionaires paid it, an isolated case, it is normal for the drugs industry to as a result of which the tax take suffered by £7 billion. I have almost complete control over the evidence base on remind him that under this Government the top rate of which crucial public decisions are made, will the Prime tax will be higher in every year than any year when he Minister ask Roche to make available the full clinical was working in the Treasury. study reports on Tamiflu, so that doctors, patients and taxpayers are not misled? Edward Miliband: I will give the right hon. Gentleman the answer, because of course he did not give it to us. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend does excellent Next April, everyone earning over £1 million will have a work on behalf of the taxpayer, partly through all the tax cut of £107,000 a year—£107,000 a year! [Interruption.] good questions that he asks. He has raised an important It is no good the Deputy Prime Minister shouting from issue, involving not only the cost to the taxpayer but the a sedentary position: he went along with it—the party possible overstatement of benefits to patients. There of Lloyd George! needs to be more transparency in clinical trials data, 863 Oral Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 864 and we are committed to ensuring that that happens. it not time that those who take the fees, employ the staff The European Medicine Agency’s work in this regard is and then supervise those staff were themselves held to supported, and from next year there will be a legal account through the creation of a new offence of corporate requirement to publish summary reports from clinical neglect? trials. The Prime Minister: I have listened very carefully to Q4. [131416] Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): This what my right hon. Friend has said. There have indeed week we learnt that, despite assurances that exhaustive been some appalling instances of completely unacceptable checks were taking place, the UK Border Agency had levels of care. Of course people working in such made minimal attempts to trace 124,000 asylum organisations are fully subject to the law, as they should seekers and migrants, and that 150 boxes of mail had be, and if the law has been broken, the proper consequences been left unopened. Does that not demonstrate that the should follow. 20% cut in the agency’s budget has put our efforts to secure our borders at risk? Q7. [131419] Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): One of the main industrial issues in my constituency, and The Prime Minister: I think that this is a week in indeed throughout the United Kingdom of Great which to recognise that we said that we would cut Britain and Northern Ireland, is the price of electricity. immigration, and that, under this Government, net What action is the Prime Minister taking to mitigate immigration is down by 25%. However, I want us to do spiralling costs, especially in Northern Ireland? far better in chasing up illegal overstayers and illegal migrants. Good work is being done in that respect, The Prime Minister: For consumers, we have announced which also involves private sector organisations finding our plan to ensure that companies put people on the these people and getting them to leave. Of course we lowest available tariff, which I think has been warmly had to make reductions in the UKBA budget, as we welcomed throughout the House and throughout the have had to make them in all budgets, but the hon. country. For business, given that there is an issue with Gentleman should have noticed by now that government the energy-intensive industries, the Government have these days is about getting more for less. announced their intention to exempt such industries from contract-for-difference costs under electricity market Q5. [131417] Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): The reform. That is subject to state aid clearance and further Prime Minister will be aware that Portsmouth has been consultation, but I think it shows that the Government the home of the Royal Navy and a working dockyard are working hard to help those industries and ensure for more than 500 years. Given that the Business that they continue to compete and succeed in Britain. Secretary appears to have prejudged the findings of a study of the future of shipbuilding, what reassurance can the Prime Minister give me—and 1,500 Q8. [131420] Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): shipbuilders—that Portsmouth will remain integral to The whole House does indeed join the Prime Minister the building and export of warships, and will continue in congratulating the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge to be the base port for our future surface fleet? on their excellent good news. Will the Prime Minister please confirm to the House that the Commonwealth The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend quite rightly has at last agreed—after many of us have been asking speaks up for Portsmouth, which is and will continue to for this for years—to change the rules on royal be an excellent home for the Royal Navy. The Navy is succession? Will the Prime Minister undertake to bring fully committed to Portsmouth, and, whatever decision a Bill before the House very soon, so that if this baby is is made on the future of shipbuilding, the Navy will a girl she can follow in the footsteps of her much-loved remain a major employer in the city, not least once the great-grandmother and become our Queen? new carriers arrive in Portsmouth in a few years’ time. I am sure that my hon. Friend will also welcome the The Prime Minister: I am very grateful to my hon. recently announced enterprise zone on the Gosport Friend for her question. I think I can answer positively peninsula, a £25 million package which could create up on all the points she made. At the Perth Commonwealth to 1,200 jobs. conference, I chaired a meeting of the Prime Ministers of all the different realms and we agreed we should Q6. [131418] Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab): bring forward legislation to deal with this issue. All the In June 2010, the Prime Minister said that despite the realms have now agreed to do that. We will introduce Government’s deficit reduction plan, he would ensure legislation into this House very shortly. It will write that there was down in law what we agreed back in 2011: that if the “ no increase in child poverty.”—[Official Report, 23 June 2010; Duke and Duchess of Cambridge’s first child is a girl, Vol. 512, c. 294.] she can one day be our Queen. That is the key point. Does he still stand by that assurance? But it is important to explain that the changes will apply to a child born after the date of the Perth The Prime Minister: We are doing everything that we announcement of last year even if the birth is before the can to tackle child poverty, and according to some legislation is passed. I hope it will not take long—certainly estimates it has come down. What we have specifically not nine months—to pass this legislation, but, just in done is increase the element of child tax credit that goes case, there would not be a problem. to the poorest families. Q9. [131421] Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab): I Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): In the wake welcome the Government’s commitment to increase of the criminal convictions of staff who repeatedly their efforts to tackle tax avoidance. Starbucks has now abused people living at Winterbourne View hospital, is caved in to public pressure and announced that it will 865 Oral Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 866 review its tax arrangements in the UK, so naming and when I have visited Aberdeen to see the health of and shaming clearly works. Surely it is time to stop the wealth generated by that industry. What we have companies engaged in tax avoidance hiding behind done, on decommissioning and on new field allowances, taxpayer confidentiality. Will the Prime Minister now has helped to bring some certainty, and we should keep commit to publishing the names of the companies working on that to make sure that we recover as much found by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to have oil and gas from the North sea as possible and make the avoided paying their fair share of tax? most of this precious national asset.

The Prime Minister: I very much welcome the right Q12. [131424] Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Some hon. Lady’s initiative on this and her Committee’s work, 7,000 fewer nurses, longer waits in accident and and I thank her for her warm words of support for what emergency, and hospitals full to bursting, according to the Government have done thus far. We have recovered Dr Foster—the Prime Minister is cutting the NHS £29 billion of additional revenues from large businesses while the deficit rises. Will he put that on his posters for in the last six years, including £4 billion in the last four the next general election? years from transfer pricing inquiries alone, which is one of the issues the press has covered in detail. I am The Prime Minister: I think the hon. Gentleman was certainly committed to doing everything we can to look describing the situation in Wales, where Labour has put at all the options to make sure that companies pay their in place an 8% cut. Let me tell him what is actually taxes properly, and I agree with what the right hon. happening in the NHS in England: we have got 1,350 Lady said about public, and even some political, pressure. extra clinical staff; we have taken down the number of On some occasions I myself have made one or two managers by 6,700; mixed-sex accommodation is right remarks on this subject that were seen as rather down; the cancer drugs fund is making sure that many controversial. It is important that people feel that companies more people get access to those drugs; waiting times are meet their responsibilities and pay their taxes. down; the number of people waiting a long time is down; and the number of people waiting longer than Q10. [131422] Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) 52 weeks to start treatment is at its lowest level since (Con): Will my right hon. Friend do everything he can records began. He should be supporting this Government to ensure that education, health and social services for their health policy and telling his Front Benchers to work together to commission services jointly, in order stop cutting the NHS. to ensure that the very welcome reforms in the forthcoming children and families Bill will be workable Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): on the ground? Does my right hon. Friend recall receiving a visit at No. 10 from the pupils of Market Field special school, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very which had been nicknamed “shed city” as there were so important point. We need to get away from the idea of many demountables on its site? Does he share my Government—or, indeed, local government—operating delight that Essex county council has allocated £8.4 million in silos with different budgets and different Departments to build a new school, and may I thank him for his not working together. My hon. Friend represents a support for that campaign? Swindon constituency, and I know that Swindon borough council has taken huge steps in bringing the various The Prime Minister: I am very grateful to my hon. agencies together, particularly in the area of problem Friend for his question. I am a very big supporter of families, and I commend them for the work they do. Britain’s special schools; I think they provide an absolutely vital service for parents and for children who have those Q11. [131423] Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Whatever announcements the Chancellor makes on special and sometimes quite acute needs. I am proud of pension tax relief shortly, is it not a fact that when this the fact that this Government have invested in special Government came to power, they made changes to schools and they are doing such a good job, including in pension tax relief that gave a tax cut of £1.6 billion to his constituency. people earning more than £150,000? [Interruption.] I Q13. [131425] Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) see that the Chancellor has to give the Prime Minister (Lab/Co-op): Following the Government’s new funding his crib sheet. formula for universities this year, student admissions The Prime Minister: I am afraid the hon. Lady is dropped by more than 50,000. Despite meeting its wrong. We inherited a plan to raise £4 billion in taxes target, the university of Wolverhampton—my local from the wealthiest people, and we raised that further. university—suffered a cut in its core allocation and has My right hon. Friend the Chancellor will make some been told that there will be another cut next year. What further announcements in a moment. guarantees can the Prime Minister give that universities such as Wolverhampton’s will not suffer year-on-year Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) reductions in student numbers as a result of this new (LD): The north-east of Scotland makes a major formula? contribution to the UK economy through the offshore oil and gas industry. Will the Prime Minister commit to The Prime Minister: The whole point is that this maximise investment in the industry so we get the Government took difficult decisions to make sure we maximum number of jobs and the maximum energy could maintain the number of people going to our security and taxation for the future of this country? universities, and the question really goes right back to the Labour party: if you don’t support a proper system The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend rightly speaks of student contributions, how on earth are you going to up for the North sea industry and for everyone who pay for our universities? We have set out our plans, and works in it in Scotland. I have been incredibly impressed they are actually working well. You don’t start paying 867 Oral Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 868 back money until you earn £21,000, and you don’t start companies the clear and stable framework that the UK paying back in full until you earn £35,000. We have a has for offshore wind, nuclear, renewables and gas. It is method for making sure we invest in our universities; a very positive development and there is a huge amount the Labour party has not got a clue. of potential pent-up investment, and we need to ensure that that results in British jobs and British apprenticeships. Q14. [131426] John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Naomi The Government are fully committed to making that House children’s hospice, which serves my constituency, happen. receives just 10% of its funding from the Department of Health, whereas adult hospices receive rather more. This Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): The isespeciallydifficultbecauseasprivateinstitutionshospices Prime Minister obviously believes that within the Leveson have to pay for all prescriptions. Will the Prime Minister report there lurks something that is bonkers. Given look again at the reasons for the different treatment of that, how would he characterise the views of his Planning children’s and adult hospices, and meet me and Professor Minister—the Under-Secretary of State for Communities Aziz to discuss the different funding levels that they and Local Government, the hon. Member for Grantham attract? and Stamford (Nick Boles)—who has just said that over the coming months and years tens of thousands of new The Prime Minister: I am very happy to discuss this homes will have to be built on greenfield sites? issue with my hon. Friend. For many years, my family used a children’s hospice in Oxford that got absolutely The Prime Minister: Let me deal with the question no state support at all. What this Government have about the Planning Minister first. It is absolutely clear done is continue with the £10 million going annually to that yes, we should build on brownfield land and try to support children’s hospices, and this year we have added deal with the problem of empty homes, but we need a an extra £720,000. However, what we want to put in frank conversation about the need to build more flats place, and what we are discussing with the providers of and houses so that we do not have the situation we both adult and children’s hospices, is a per-patient currently have, whereby if people do not have help from funding system that would be for all hospices. I think the bank of mum and dad they are in their mid-30s that would bring a greater logic and consistency to how before they buy their first home or flat. I do not think we support this absolutely essential part of both our that is acceptable in our country, so all credit to the health service and, I would argue, our big society. Planning Minister for trying to fix the problem. Q15. [131427] Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): On the question of Leveson, I think there is a wide Is the Prime Minister aware that Amazon, a global agreement about what a new regulatory system ought to company, turned over £3.3 billion in the UK this year, look like. It is set out there in black and white in paid not a single penny in corporation tax and yet was Leveson, and we need to challenge the press to introduce rewarded with a £10 million grant from the Scottish it. If they do not, we will obviously have to take further National party Government in Scotland? Does that not action. demonstrate that both our Prime Minister and our First Minister stand up for the wrong people? When Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): With more will this Government move away from punishing the men in work than ever before, more women in work poorest in society and focus on those who avoid and than ever before, a deficit that has been cut by 25% and evade? interest rates at historic lows, does my right hon. Friend agree that the Opposition’s plan B—code for more The Prime Minister: The point I would make to the debt—would jeopardise all those achievements? hon. Gentleman is that there is common ground between us, which is that we want those large multinational The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right; companies to pay proper taxes here in the UK. We we are making progress. Of course it is tough when believe that you do that by having low tax rates—and there are so many economic headwinds against us, but we have reduced the rate of corporation tax—and ensuring with 1 million more private sector jobs, the deficit down that they declare their income properly. On the specific by 25% and a record number of businesses starting up issue of transfer payments, some companies have been last year, we are on the right track. It is quite clear that pursuing rather strange practices to pretend that their plan B stands for bankruptcy—that is what Labour revenues are not delivered here in the UK to run down would give us. their tax bills. As I have said, in the past four years we have recovered £4 billion in tax revenue in that way, but Mr Speaker: Last but not least, I call Ann Clwyd. the Treasury and the HMRC very much know that there is more we can do. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): A universal health care system free at the point of delivery is what the Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Residents overwhelming majority of the British people want and of Suffolk Coastal were very excited when the Energy something to which I remain firmly committed. However, Bill was published last week, because it gives a potential there are increasing complaints about nurses who fail to green light to the building of Sizewell C nuclear power show care and compassion to their patients. What exactly station and many jobs. Will the Prime Minister commit will the Prime Minister do about that? to continuing to invest in apprenticeships and skills training so that Suffolk people can get the jobs that will The Prime Minister: The right hon. Lady speaks for be created? the whole House and the whole country in raising this issue. I know how painful what she witnessed in her The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely own life and her own family must have been. I am, as right. The presentation of the Energy Bill to Parliament she is, a massive fan of our national health service and means that we can get out there and sell to all the energy an enormous fan of the fact that it is free at the point of 869 Oral Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 870 use and that we do not produce a credit card when we hospital to carry out a friends and family test, asking go to hospital. My family has had extraordinary care the patients and the staff whether they would be happy from our NHS, but we do not do our NHS or our for their family or friends to be treated in that hospital, nurses any favours if we do not point out that there are can make a real difference. So can hourly rounding, some very real problems in parts of our health and care which is not something to do with statistics but the system. idea that the nurse should be there by the bedside of As a constituency MP, I see quite a few letters— elderly patients once an hour checking that they have particularly elderly people and their relatives—who had water and something to eat, that they do not have are not getting the sort of care that is appropriate in bedsores and that they are properly looked after. We hospitals. I set up a nursing care quality forum that I should not have to dictate those things, but a proper have attended myself to discuss these issues with nurses conversation with our nurses—who are angels to a vast and nurse leaders. There is no silver bullet and no magic degree—can get the situation sorted out for all our wand, but some simple steps, such as asking every relatives. 871 5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 872

Autumn Statement The Office for Budget Responsibility has today produced its latest economic forecast and it is a measure of the constitutional achievement that it is taken for granted 12.34 pm that our country’s forecast is now produced independently The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): of the Treasury, free from the political interference of It is taking time, but the British economy is healing. the past. I want to thank Robert Chote, his fellow After the biggest financial crash of our lifetimes, people members of the Budget Responsibility Committee, Steve know that we face deep-seated problems at home and Nickell and Graham Parker, and all their staff at the abroad. At home, we live with the decade of debt and OBR for their rigorous approach. the failure to equip Britain to compete in the modern One of the advantages of the creation of the OBR is world, and we face a multitude of problems from abroad— that we get not only independent forecasts, but an the US fiscal cliff, the slowing growth in China, and independent explanation for why the forecasts are as above all the eurozone, now in recession. they are. For example, if lower growth was the result of People know that there are no quick fixes to these the Government’s fiscal policy, it would say so. But it problems but they want to know that we are making does not. It says that the economy has “performed less progress, and the message from today’s autumn statement strongly” than expected and forecasts growth this year is that we are making progress. It is a hard road, but we of minus 0.1%, but in its view are getting there. [Interruption.] Britain is on the right “the weaker than expected growth can be more than accounted track—[Interruption.] for by over-optimism regarding net trade”. The OBR had previously assumed that the eurozone Mr Speaker: Order. I ask the Chancellor to resume would begin to recover in the second half of this year. his seat. Let us be clear about this. Each side should be Instead, of course, it has continued to contract, which heard with courtesy. The House knows well enough by has hit our exports to those markets and the net trade now that I will afford a very full opportunity for questioning numbers. The eurozone crisis has also, it says, spilled of the Chancellor, but the more interruption and the over into “tighter credit conditions” and greater the noise, the longer the session will take, and “elevated UK bank funding costs”. that cannot be right. So I appeal to Members please to In its words, those problems will give the Chancellor a courteous hearing, as indeed, if it becomes necessary, I will appeal to Government Back “constrain growth for several years to come”. Benchers to afford a fair hearing to the shadow Chancellor. There are also domestic problems that the OBR That is how it should be. refers to. In the report today the contraction in 2008-2009 is now assessed to be deeper than previously thought, Mr Osborne: Britain is on the right track and turning with GDP shrinking by a staggering 6.3%, the largest back now would be a disaster. We have much more to shock to our economy since the second world war. In do. The deficit has fallen by a quarter in just two years, the OBR’s view, the aftermath of that shock continues and today’s figures show that it is forecast to continue to to weigh on the productivity of the UK economy, with fall. Exports of goods to the major emerging economies, credit rationing and impaired financial markets potentially which were pitifully low, have doubled since 2009. Since impeding the expansion of successful firms. It says: this coalition Government came to office, 1.2 million “GDP growth is now expected to be lower in every year of the new jobs have been created in the private sector. In a forecast period, as credit conditions take longer to normalise and world economy where bond investors are fleeing countries global growth remains weaker than previously expected”. that they regard as risky, investment is flowing into UK As a result, the OBR forecasts that the economy will gilts, instead of flying from them. We have to keep it grow by 1.2% next year, 2.0% in 2014, 2.3% in 2015, that way. 2.7% in 2016 and 2.8% in 2017. Two years ago, Britain was in the danger zone. Now So the economy is recovering, and it is recovering we are seen as one of the safe havens, able to borrow more quickly than many of our neighbours. The money at lower interest rates than at any time in our International Monetary Fund estimates that next year history. Today’s forecast shows a £33 billion saving on the UK will grow more strongly than either France or the debt interest payments that it was predicted we Germany. Our credible fiscal policy allows for supportive would have to pay two years ago. That is as much as the monetary policy and, with the Bank of England, we are entire defence budget. That is why in this autumn directly addressing the problems of tight credit through statement, we show that this coalition Government are the £70 billion funding for lending scheme. In the confronting the country’s problems, instead of ducking OBR’s view, that has reduced UK bank funding costs, them. lowered interest rates in the real economy and will add Today we reaffirm our commitment to reducing the to the level of real GDP. deficit, setting out the details of our spending plans for One area where the British economy has done much 2015-16 and rolling forward an outline framework into better than forecast is in creating jobs. Since early 2010, 2017-18. We show our determination to do this fairly, the private sector has created 1.2 million new jobs—600,000 with further savings from bureaucracy, the benefit bills more than predicted—and youth unemployment has and the better-off. We go on equipping Britain to succeed been falling. The OBR now expects unemployment to in the global race by switching from current spending to peak at 8.3%, instead of 8.7%. That is at a time when capital investment in science, roads and education. We the unemployment rate in Spain is 26%, in France it is offer new support for business and enterprise, so they 11% and across the whole eurozone it is almost 12%. can create the jobs we need. In everything we do, we will Employment, which is already at a record high, is set to show today that we are on the side of those who want to go on rising each year of the forecast. For every one job work hard and get on. less in the public sector, two new jobs are expected to be 873 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 874 created in the private sector. Britain now has a greater Unlike the previous Government’s golden rule, the proportion of its people in work than either the eurozone regime we have set up means that the Chancellor is no or the United States of America. More jobs means that longer judge and jury of their own fiscal rules, and the impact of the weaker than forecast GDP on the today the OBR has assessed us against those rules. public finances has been less than some might have First, the fiscal mandate: this is the commitment that expected. we will balance the cyclically adjusted current budget There have been three developments that have each over the coming five years. I can tell the House that the had a significant one-off impact on the public finances, OBR has assessed that we are, in its words, “on course” and the report we are publishing today shows clearly to meet our fiscal mandate. In other words, we have a and transparently the impact of all three. First, there is better than 50% chance of eliminating the structural the transfer of the Royal Mail pension fund to the current deficit in five years’ time—that part of our public sector as part of its privatisation. That produces borrowing that does not recover automatically as the a one-off reduction in the deficit of £28 billion this year, economy grows. This is true, again, with or without the but it will add to the deficit in the years after. transfer of the coupons, so we will meet our fiscal mandate. But the OBR assesses in its central forecast Secondly, the previous Government had classified that we do not meet the supplementary objective that Bradford & Bingley and Northern Rock Asset Management aims to have debt falling by 2015-16. The point at which as off balance sheet. Today, they are brought on balance debt starts to fall has been delayed by one year, to sheet, in line with the judgment of the Office for National 2016-17, and the OBR’s central forecast is that net debt Statistics. That adds around £70 billion to our national will be 74.7% this year, then 76.8% next year, 79% in debt and reminds us of the price the country is still 2014-15, and 79.9% in 2015-16, before falling to 79.2% in paying for the failures of the past. 2016-17 and 77.3% in 2017-18. Thirdly, the Government have decided, with the In short, the tougher economic conditions mean that agreement of the Bank of England, to transfer excess while our deficit is forecast to go on falling, instead of cash held in the asset purchase facility to the Exchequer. taking three years to get our debt falling, it is going to This is sensible cash management, and it is in line with take four. Confronted with this news, some say we the approach of the Bank of Japan and the US Federal should abandon our deficit plan and try to borrow Reserve. I welcome the OBR’s verdict that this is, in its more. They think that by borrowing more, we can words, “more transparent” than the previous approach. borrow less. That would risk higher interest rates, more I want to make sure that its impact on the figures is also debt interest payments, and a complete loss of Britain’s completely transparent, so we have today published the fiscal credibility. We are not taking that road to ruin. forecasts for the public finances with and without the impact of the APF decision. Then there are those who say that despite all that has When we came to office, the deficit stood at 11.2%—the happened in the world this year, we should cut even highest in our peacetime history. It was forecast to be more now to hit the debt target. That would require the largest of any major economy in the world. In the £17 billion of extra cuts a year. Let me explain why I past two years, the deficit has fallen by a quarter. have decided not to take this course. Today’s figures show that with or without the APF We have always argued that we should let the automatic coupons, the deficit is forecast to fall this year as well, stabilisers work. We have not argued that we should and cash borrowing is forecast to fall too. Last year, the chase down a cyclical or temporary deterioration in the deficit was 7.9%. This year, with the APF coupons, it is economy, particularly one that our own independent forecast to be 6.9%, but that excludes the impact of the body says is largely driven by problems abroad. That is Royal Mail pension assets. It is falling and it will also the judgment of the International Monetary Fund, continue to fall each and every year, to 6.1% next year, the OECD and the Governor of the Bank of England. 5.2% the year after, 4.2% in 2015-16, then 2.6%, before Our aim is to reduce the structural deficit—the permanent reaching 1.6% in 2017-18. hole in our public finances that will not be repaired as In 2009-10, the country was borrowing £159 billion. the economy recovers. And we are—we have cut the This year, we are borrowing £108 billion. That is forecast structural deficit by 3 percentage points in the past two to fall to £99 billion next year, £88 billion the year after, years, more than any other G7 country, and it is set to then £73 billion in 2015-16, and £49 billion and £31 billion go on being cut at a similar rate in the years ahead. This in the two years after that. These are the central forecasts lower deficit is delivered by our public spending plans published by the OBR, with the asset purchase facility and we are going to stick with those plans. Overall, we cash transfer included. When the transfer is excluded, are not going faster or slower with those plans; the as we show in the document, the deficit also falls, from measures I will announce in this autumn statement are 7.9% last year to 7.7% this year, then 6.9% next year, fiscally neutral across this Parliament. There is no net and it falls in every single year after that—and cash rise in taxes today—any taxes increased are offset by borrowing falls in every year as well. taxes cut. There are those who have been saying that the deficit In last year’s autumn statement, we committed the was going up this year—indeed, I think I heard it in Government to maintain the same pace of consolidation Prime Minister’s questions—but any way you present for two further years beyond the end of the current these figures, this is not what the OBR forecasts show spending review, into 2015 and 2016-17. In this year’s today. It says that the deficit is coming down—coming autumn statement, we extend the consolidation for one down this year and every year of this Parliament. Yes, further year, into 2017-18. The OBR projects that, as a the deficit is still far too high for comfort—we cannot result, the share of national income spent by the state relax our efforts to make our economy safe—but Britain will fall from almost 48% of GDP in 2009-10 to 39.5% by is heading in the right direction. The road is hard but we 2017-18. The document shows that total managed are making progress. expenditure will continue to fall, and will now be £4.6 billion 875 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 876

[Mr George Osborne] A mark of our values as a society is our commitment to the world’s poorest. We made a promise as a country lower in 2017-18 than if it had been held flat in real that we would spend 0.7% of our gross national income terms. No decision to cut spending is ever easy, but on international development and I am proud to be those who object must explain whether instead they part of the first British Government in history who will would have higher taxes, higher borrowing or both. honour that commitment and honour it as promised I also provide further detail of the consolidation next year. We will not, however, spend more than 0.7% so, plans for 2015-16, the last year of this Parliament. I said as we did last year, we will adjust the Department for two years ago that the correct balance for our fiscal International Development’s budget to reflect the latest consolidation between spending and tax should be 80:20. economic forecasts. I can confirm that by the end of 2015-16, the decisions In the medium term these savings across Whitehall we announce today mean that we will almost exactly will help Departments maintain the right trajectory for deliver on that 80:20 mix. Total spending will fall in the the years that follow the spending review and help us to final year of this Parliament at the same rate as through pay off the deficit in future. In the short term, I am the current spending review. switching these current savings into capital—all the I can confirm today that the overall envelope for total money saved in the first two years will be reinvested as managed expenditure will be set at £745 billion. We part of a £5 billion capital investment in the infrastructure start with the working assumption that departmental of our country. Despite the fiscal challenges we face, resource totals will continue on the same trajectory as public investment as a share of GDP will be higher on over the current spending review. The detail of departmental average in this Parliament than it was under the last spending plans for 2015-16 will be set at a spending Labour Government. It is exactly what a Government review, which will be announced during the first half of equipping Britain to compete in the modern global next year. What we are doing today is taking steps now economy should be doing. to help deliver those spending plans and to go on We are committing an extra £1 billion to roads, which reducing the deficit in a way that is fair. includes four major new schemes: to upgrade key sections This Government have shown that it is possible to of the Al, bringing the route from London to Newcastle restore sanity to the public finances while improving the up to motorway standard; to link the A5 with the Ml; to quality of our public services—crime has fallen, hospital dual the A30 in Cornwall; and to upgrade the M25, waiting lists are down, school standards are up—and which will support the biggest port developments in this is with a civil service that is today smaller than at Europe. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for any time since the second world war. Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) for campaigning to achieve this. We are today publishing the reports we commissioned from the pay review bodies on market-facing pay. We We have already set out plans this autumn for a huge commit to implementing these reports. This means investment in rail, and my right hon. Friend the Transport continuing with national pay arrangements in the NHS Secretary will set out in the new year plans to take High and Prison Service, and we will not make changes to the Speed 2 to the north-west and west Yorkshire. I can civil service arrangements, either; but the School Teachers today confirm a £1 billion loan and a guarantee to Review Body recommends much greater freedom to extend the Northern line to Battersea power station and individual schools to set pay in line with performance, support a new development on a similar scale to the and my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary will Olympic park. set out how that will be implemented. We are confirming funding and reforms to assist Through the efforts of individual Government construction of up to 120,000 new homes and delivering Departments and the support of the Chief Secretary on flood defence schemes in more cities. On top of and my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet broadband expansion for our countryside and our larger Office, we have already generated £12 billion of efficiency cities, we are funding ultrafast broadband in 12 smaller savings in Whitehall, but we believe there is room to do cities: Brighton and Hove, Cambridge, Coventry, Derby, even more. If all Departments reduced their spending Oxford, Portsmouth, Salford, York, Newport, Aberdeen, on administration in line with the best-performing Perth and Derry/Londonderry. In addition to the third Departments, such as Education and Communities and of a billion announced this autumn for British science, Local Government, another £1 billion could be saved. we are today announcing £600 million more for the If all Departments made greater provision of digital UK’s scientific research infrastructure. services, rationalised their property estates, as some Since improving our education system is the best have done, a further £1 billion could be saved. Today, investment in a competitive economy, I am today therefore, we are reducing departmental resource budgets committing £270 million to fund improvements in further by 1% next year and 2% in the year after. education colleges and £1 billion to expand good schools We will continue to seek efficiency savings in the and build 100 new free schools and academies. Scotland, NHS and in our schools, but that money will be recycled Wales and Northern Ireland will get their Barnett share to protect spending in these priority areas. Local government of additional capital spending put at the disposal of budgets are already being held down next year to deliver their devolved Administrations. the freeze in council tax, so we will not seek the additional On top of the £5 billion of new capital spending in 1% savings next year, but we will look for the 2% saving infrastructure and support for business, we are ready to the year after. Although the Ministry of Defence is provide guarantees for up to £40 billion more. Today I included in these measures, it will be given flexibility on can announce that projects worth £10 billion have already its multi-year budget to ensure that this will not lead to pre-qualified. We are offering £10 billion-worth of reductions in military manpower or the core defence guarantees for housing, too. Our country’s pension equipment programme over the Parliament. funds will launch their new independent infrastructure 877 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 878 investment platform next year as well, and we have and simply discourage enterprise and investment into today published full details of the replacement for the Britain. Other countries on our doorstep are trying that discredited private finance initiative. Since we can all see approach and paying the price. We are not making that now that the public sector was sharing the risk, we will mistake. HMRC data reveal that in the first year of the now ensure that we also share in the reward, and I 50% tax rate, tax revenues from the rich fell by £7 billion commend my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and the number of people declaring incomes of over and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) for his work £1 million fell by a half. A tax raid on the rich that raises in this area. almost no money is a tax con. We are going to have a Taken together, this is a revolution in the sources of top rate of tax that supports enterprise and we are finance for upgrading Britain’s infrastructure and equipping going to raise more money from the rich. Here is a Britain to win in the global race. Annual average simple fact: the richest will pay a greater share of infrastructure investment, which was £29 billion under income tax revenues in every single year of the coalition the last Labour Government, is now £33 billion. Government than in any one of the 13 years of the last Savings from Whitehall are not enough by themselves Labour Government. to tackle our debts. We need to find other savings, and However, to make sure that the deficit reduction we need to do so in a way that is fair. Those with the remains fair, we need to raise more. We have already most should contribute the most, and they will, but raised stamp duty on multi-million pound homes and fairness is also about being fair to the person who leaves next week we will publish the legislation to stop the home every morning to go out to work and sees that richest avoiding stamp duty. But we will not introduce a their neighbour is still asleep, living a life on benefits. As new tax on property. That would require the revaluation well as a tax system where the richest pay their fair of hundreds of thousands of homes. In my view, it share, we have to have a welfare system that is fair to the would be intrusive, it would be expensive to levy, it working people who pay for it. would raise little and the temptation for future Chancellors Let me start with tax. The vast majority of people, to bring ever more homes into its net would be irresistible, rich or otherwise, pay their taxes and make their so we are not having a new homes tax. contribution. However, there are still too many who In this Parliament, we have already reduced the amount illegally evade their taxes or use aggressive tax avoidance of tax relief that we give to the very largest pension in order not to pay their fair share. This Government pots. From 2014-15, I will further reduce the lifetime have taken more action against those people than any allowance from £1.5 million to £1.25 million, and reduce before us. Prosecutions for tax evasion are up 80%. We the annual allowance from £50,000 to £40,000. That will collect £7 billion more a year in tax that is due than will reduce the cost of tax relief to the public purse by the last Government. We are increasing by about 2,500 the an extra £1 billion a year by 2016-17. Ninety-eight per number of tax inspectors going after evaders and avoiders. cent. of the people currently approaching retirement Next year, we will introduce the first ever general anti-abuse have a pension pot worth less than £1.25 million. Indeed, rule—something that never happened in the 13 years the median pot for such people is just £55,000. Ninety-nine before we came into office. per cent. of pension savers make annual contributions Next year, for the first time in our history, money will to their pensions of less than £40,000. The average be flowing from bank accounts in Switzerland to Britain, contribution to a pension is just £6,000 a year. instead of the other way around. Because of the treaty I know that these tax measures will not be welcomed that we have signed, we expect to receive £5 billion over by all—ways to reduce the deficit never are—but we the next six years from the undisclosed Swiss bank must demonstrate that we are all in this together. When accounts of UK residents. That is the largest tax evasion looking for savings, I think that it is fair to look at the settlement in British history. tax relief that we give to the top 1%. We are taking further steps today. Hundreds of millions I want to help the great majority of savers. That is of pounds of tax loopholes are being closed with immediate why we are introducing a generous new single-tier pension, effect, and we are investigating the abusive use of so that people know it always pays to save. That is why I partnerships. HMRC will not have its budget cut over will uprate next April the overall individual savings the next two years, unlike other departments. Instead, account limit to £11,520. We will also consult on allowing we will spend £77 million more on fighting tax avoidance, investments in equity markets for small and medium-sized and not just for wealthy individuals. enterprises, such as the alternative investment market, We want to have the most competitive corporate tax to be held directly in stocks and shares ISAs to encourage system of any major economy in the world, but we investment in growing businesses. expect those corporate taxes to be paid. We are therefore I have also listened to the concerns from pensioners confirming today that we will put more resources into about draw-down limits. I am today announcing that ensuring that multinational companies pay their proper the Government will raise the capped draw-down limit share of taxes. We are leading the international effort to from 100% to 120%, giving pensioners with such prevent artificial transfers of profits to tax havens. With arrangements the option of increasing their incomes. Germany and now France, we have asked the OECD to It is also fair to look at the way in which we uprate take that work forward and we will make it an important benefits and some tax thresholds. The basic state pension priority of our G8 presidency next year. In total, we has this year gone up by the largest cash amount in its expect the action that we are announcing today to history. Next year, thanks to our triple lock, I confirm increase the amount of money collected from tax evasion that it will rise by 2.5%, which is higher than either and avoidance by a further £2 billion a year. earnings or inflation. That takes the level of the full Fair and necessary as that is, it is not enough by itself basic state pension to £110.15 a week. to close the deficit. We need to ask more from the When it comes to working-age welfare, we have already better-off. Punitive tax rates do nothing to raise money, made substantial reforms. We have cut £18 billion a 879 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 880

[Mr George Osborne] by 2015-16. Again, there are no easy ways to reduce the deficit, but from year to year, no one will pay a penny year from the welfare bill. Benefits are being capped for more in income tax. the first time, so families out of work will not get more In the same way, the capital gains tax annual exempt than the average family gets for being in work. We have amount will be increased by 1% over the same period, increased efforts to fight welfare fraud. Today, we announce reaching £11,100. The inheritance tax nil-band rate, further measures and checks to save more than £1 billion which has been frozen since 2009 at £325,000, will be in the next four years by reducing fraud, error and debt increased by 1% in 2015-16 to £329,000. Taken with the in the tax credit system. Next year, my right hon. Friend welfare uprating decisions, that is a fair approach to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will paying off Britain’s debts. introduce the new universal credit so that it always pays to work. Today, we are setting the key parameters, such However, dealing with those debts is only one part of as the levels of earning disregards. making Britain fit to compete in the global race. Countries like ours risk being out-smarted, outworked and out- We have to acknowledge that over the last five years, competed by the new emerging economies. We asked those on out-of-work benefits have seen their incomes Michael Heseltine to report on how to make the rise twice as fast as those in work. With pay restraint in Government work better for business and enterprise. I businesses and Government, average earnings have risen think that it is fair to say that his answer has captured by about 10% since 2007. Out-of-work benefits have the imagination of all political parties. gone up by about 20%. That is not fair to working We will respond formally in the spring, but here is people who pay the taxes that fund them. Those working what we will do now. First, Government spending should in the public services, who have seen their basic pay be aligned with the priorities of the local business frozen, will now see it rise by an average of 1%. A community. We will provide new money to support the similar approach of a 1% rise should apply to those in local enterprise partnerships, and from April 2015, the receipt of benefits. That is fair and it will ensure that we Government will place more of the funding that currently have a welfare system that Britain can afford. We will goes to local transport, housing, skills and getting people support the vulnerable, so carers’ benefits and disability back to work into a single pot that LEPs can bid for. benefits, including disability elements of tax credits, will Details will be set out in the spending review. Before be increased in line with inflation, and we are extending then, we are putting more money into the regional the support for mortgage interest for two more years. growth fund, which is helping businesses create half a million new jobs. However, most working-age benefits, including jobseeker’s allowance, employment and support allowance and income Secondly, as Lord Heseltine also recommends, we support, will be uprated by 1% for the next three years. will support industries and technologies where Britain We will also uprate elements of child tax credit and has a clear advantage. With the support of my right working tax credit by 1% for the next three years, hon. Friend the Business Secretary, we will extend our although previously planned freezes will go ahead. Local global lead in aerospace and support the supply chains housing allowance rates, which are a central component of advanced manufacturing. We are also taking big of housing benefit, will be uprated in line with the steps today to support British companies that export to existing policy next April and we will then cap increases new emerging markets in Asia, Africa and the Americas. at 1% in the two years after that. For that measure, 30% I am increasing the funding for UK Trade & Investment of the savings will be used to exempt from the new cap by more than 25% a year, so that it can help more firms those areas with the highest rent increases. The earning build the capacity of overseas British chambers and disregards for universal credit will also be uprated by maintain our country’s position as the No. 1 destination 1% for two years from April 2014. Child benefit is in Europe for foreign investment. We are also launching currently frozen. It, too, will now rise by 1% for two a new £1.5 billion export finance facility to support the years from April 2014. purchase of British exports. Thirdly, we are addressing credit problems for companies. Let me be clear: uprating benefits at 1% means that We are creating a new business bank, and today we have people get more cash, but less than the rate of inflation. confirmed that we are providing it with £1 billion of Taken together, we will save £3.7 billion in 2015-16 and extra capital, which will lever in private lending to help deliver permanent savings each and every year from our small and medium-sized firms and bring together existing country’s welfare bill. To bring all those decisions on schemes. many benefits over many years together, we will introduce primary legislation in Parliament in the welfare uprating Fourthly, we are going to cut business taxes still Bill. I hope that it will command support from both further. Let me explain how. The temporary doubling sides of the House. of the small business rate relief scheme helps more than half a million small firms, with 350,000 paying no rates We will apply a similar approach to uprating some of at all. The previous Government were going to end it in our tax thresholds to that that we are applying to September 2011; we have already extended it to next welfare. The higher rate threshold will be increased by April, and, today, I extend it by a further year, to April 1% in the tax years 2014-15 and 2015-16. So the income 2014. We also confirm today the tax relief for our at which people start paying the 40% rate will go up employee shareholder scheme. from £41,450 to £41,865 and then to £42,285. I want to The Energy Bill provides certainty and support for be completely clear with people: this is an increase; in billions of pounds of investment in renewable energy. fact, it is the first cash increase in the higher rate Today, we publish our gas strategy to ensure that we threshold in this Parliament, but it is not an increase in make the best use of lower-cost gas power, including line with inflation, so it will raise £1 billion of revenue new sources of gas under the land. We are consulting on 881 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 882 new tax incentives for shale gas and announcing the per litre rise planned for this January. Now, some have creation of a single office so that regulation is safe but suggested that we delay it until April. I disagree. I simple. We do not want British families and businesses suggest we cancel it altogether. There will be no 3p fuel to be left behind as gas prices tumble on the other side tax rise this January. That is real help with the cost of of the Atlantic. living for families as they fill up their cars across the We are going to help our construction industry, too. country, and it will help businesses, too. It means that, The previous Government abolished empty property under this Government, we will have had no increase in relief, and, as excellent work done by my hon. Friends petrol taxes for nearly two and a half years. In fact, they the Members for York Outer (Julian Sturdy) and for have been cut. Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) and others We have also helped working people by increasing the shows, that has blighted development in our towns and amount that they can earn before paying any income cities. The proposal from my colleagues that we create a tax. When the coalition Government came to office, the long grace period before newly completed buildings personal tax allowance stood at just £6,475; next April, have to pay empty property rates is sensible, and we will it is set to rise to £9,205. introduce it next October. Twenty-four million taxpayers have seen their income The previous Government also planned to increase tax cut; 2 million of the lowest-paid have been taken out the small companies tax rate to 22%. We have cut it to of tax altogether. Because of the difficult decisions we 20%. However, I would like to help small and medium-sized have taken today, we can go even further. From next firms more, and I thank my hon. Friends the Members April, the personal allowance will rise by a further £235. for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) and for Pendle (Andrew That means a total increase next year of £1,335—the Stephenson) for their thoughts on that matter. Starting highest cash increase ever. People will be able to earn on 1 January, and for the next two years, I will increase £9,440 before paying any income tax at all. This is a tenfold the annual investment allowance in plant and direct boost to the incomes of people working hard to machinery. Instead of £25,000-worth of investment being provide for their families. It is £47 extra in cash next eligible for 100% relief, £250,000-worth of investment year. In total, it is a £267 cash increase next year. People will now qualify. That capital allowance will cover the working full time on the minimum wage will have seen total annual investment undertaken by 99% of all the their income tax bill cut in half, and we are within business in Britain. It is a huge boost to all those who touching distance of the £10,000 personal allowance. run a business and who aspire to grow, expand and And at this time, I propose to extend the benefits of this create jobs. further increase to higher rate taxpayers. That decision I want Britain to have the most competitive business will stand alongside the decision I have had to take on tax regime of any major economy in the world. I have uprating, meaning that, in real terms, a typical higher already cut the main core rate of corporation tax from rate taxpayer will be better off next year and no worse 28% to 24%, and it is set to fall further to 22%. That has off in total by the year after. helped British companies and frankly left other countries Today we have helped working people, but I do not scrambling to keep up. They will have to try harder, for I want to distract from the tough economic situation we am today cutting the main corporation tax rate again by face in the world. The public know there are no miracle a further 1%. In America, the rate is 40%; in France, it is cures; just the hard work of dealing with our deficit and 33%; in Germany, it is 29%. From April 2014, the ensuring Britain wins the global race. That work is corporation tax rate in Britain will stand at 21%. That is under way. The deficit is down. Borrowing is down. the lowest rate of any major western economy. It is an Jobs are being created. It is a hard road, but we are advert for our country that says, “Come here; invest making progress, and in everything we do, we are helping here; create jobs here; Britain is open for business.” those who want to work hard and get on. We will not pass the benefit of that reduced rate on to banks, and to ensure that we meet our revenue commitments, the bank levy rate will be increased to 1.21 pm 0.130% next year. Making banks contribute more is part of our major reforms to the banking system. Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): Today, We also have to be on the side of those who want to after two and a half years, we can see, and people can work hard and get on. I know how difficult many feel in the country, the true scale of this Government’s families have found the cost of living. In dealing with economic failure. The economy this year is contracting. the deficit, we have had to save money. However, whenever The Chancellor has confirmed that Government borrowing we have been able to help, we have. We have helped is revised up this year, next year and every year. The councils freeze council tax for two years running, and national deficit is not rising—[Interruption.] I will say we are helping them freeze it again next year. We have it again. Our economy is contracting this year; Government put a cap on rail fare rises for the next two years, so borrowing and the deficit are revised up this year, next commuters are not punished for travelling to work. We year and every year; and the national debt is rising, not are forcing energy companies to move families on to the falling. It is people who are already struggling to make lowest tariffs for their gas and electricity bills. ends meet, middle and lower-income families and pensioners, who are paying the price, while millionaires We have also helped motorists with the cost of petrol. get a tax cut—a £3 billion welfare handout to the We have cancelled the last Government’s escalator, and people who need it least. I am moving inflation-only rises to September. Fuel is 10p per litre cheaper than it would have been if we had Let me spell out the full facts to the House— stuck to Labour’s tax plans, and I want to keep it that [Interruption.] Government Members should listen. way, as I know do my colleagues, like my hon. Friend They might learn something. In June 2010, the Office the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). There is a 3p for Budget Responsibility forecast that our economy 883 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 884

[Ed Balls] The result is that the OBR shows more borrowing and higher deficits means higher national debt. The would grow by 2.8% this year. In March this year, it said national debt—[Interruption.] The Prime Minister should there would still be growth, but revised it down to just listen to this, even if it might be rather shocking to find 0.8%. Today, we learn that the Chancellor has not out. National debt will be higher at the end of this managed even that. Growth has not only been downgraded Parliament than the level inherited; it will be higher at yet again, but he has confirmed, following the double-dip the end of this Parliament than forecast in the plans he recession, that our economy is now forecast to actually inherited; and it is no longer falling as a percentage of contract inside this year, by 0.1%. GDP in 2015. It is rising in 2015 and rising again in Let me remind the House what the Chancellor promised 2016, breaking the fiscal rule for falling debt upon over two years ago in the June Budget. He said: which the Chancellor said his entire credibility depended. In last year’s Budget, the Chancellor said, “We have provided the foundations for economic recovery in all parts of our nation”. “our deficit reduction plan is on course…we will not waiver”.— [Official Report, 21 March 2012; Vol. 542, c. 795.] He said: On course? Not waivering? He is not waivering, he is “We have set the course for a balanced budget and falling drowning. national debt by the end of this Parliament.” And he said: The Chancellor is now trying to claim that his failure on growth, his failure on borrowing and the debt, and “The richest paying the most and the” breaking his own fiscal rule, are not his fault—that no most one could have foreseen it. What nonsense; he was “vulnerable protected”.—[Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, warned. He was warned that a tough medium-term c. 180.] plan to cut the deficit, tax rises, spending cuts and pay restraint, which every country had to put in place, could That was the promise, but far from the Chancellor work only if the Government first put in place a plan securing our recovery, our economy has flatlined since for jobs and growth. He was warned that it was a huge the spending review in 2010. Over the past two years, he gamble to go too far, too fast, and to rely on exports to was expecting 4.6% growth, but he has actually achieved bail him out. He was warned that there was a hurricane 0.6% growth, which compares with 1.7% in France, brewing in the eurozone, and that it was not the time to 3.6% in Germany and 4.1% in America. We are falling rip out the foundations of the house here in Britain. behind in the global race. We learn today that growth is Once again, the Chancellor is trying to blame high oil being downgraded this year, next year, the year after, prices and the eurozone crisis for negative growth this the year after, and the year after that too—the longest year, but they affected all countries, so why, over the double-dip recession since the second world war now last—[Interruption.] followed by the slowest recovery in the past 100 years. The result of this stagnation—rising long-term unemployment and long-term damage to our economy, Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting. Members falling behind now as other countries move ahead—is must calm themselves. Mr Byles, I thought you were that the Chancellor’s fiscal strategy has been completely normally a model of restraint and civility. Good heavens derailed. The defining purpose of the Government, the man! I do not know what has come over you. Calm cornerstone of the coalition, the one test they set themselves: yourself—take a pill if necessary, but keep calm. Take to balance the books and get the debt falling by 2015, is up yoga. now in tatters. What we have learned today is that Government Ed Balls: Growth down, borrowing up, debt up—they borrowing has been revised up this year, next year and don’t like it, Mr Speaker, do they? They don’t like it at the year after that. We now know that, compared with all. the Chancellor’s forecast two years ago, borrowing is Once again, the Chancellor is trying to blame high oil now forecast to be well above the £150 billion of extra prices and the eurozone crisis, so let me ask him: why, borrowing that he was forecasting in March— over the past two years, has Britain grown at just one [Interruption.] Government Members should listen to tenth of the average growth rate of the G20 countries? this. The Chancellor has confirmed that the Prime Why has growth here in Britain been even slower than Minister’s pledge to balance the books in 2015 is not in the eurozone? It is not the rest of the world’s fault—it met in 2015, it is not met in 2016 and it is not met in is his policies that have failed. He claimed that rising 2017. The fact is that there is more borrowing this year, VAT alongside accelerated spending cuts would boost next year and the year after. confidence, secure recovery and get the deficit down, The Opposition will look at the detail when we get but they depressed confidence, choked off our recovery the figures—it was disappointing that the Chancellor and borrowing has been revised up. Let me ask the failed to give us the cash figures adjusted for borrowing Chancellor: whatever happened to his Treasury view—his this year, next year and the year after. The unusual thing theory of expansionary fiscal contraction? Expansionary is that, just a few weeks ago, the independent forecasters fiscal contraction? It is the economy that has contracted were saying that borrowing would be £6 billion higher and the borrowing and the debt that have expanded. this year. We will examine the detail of those figures to That is the truth. see whether there has been any dodgy dealing. We will When the latest figures show business confidence find out in the coming hours. [Interruption.] I do not falling, when the world economy is slowing, when the know because I have not seen the figures, but I do know eurozone is in such chronic difficulty, and when on that there is more borrowing this year, more borrowing current plans the Chancellor’s fiscal straitjacket tightens next year and more borrowing the year after. further next year, it is simply reckless and deeply 885 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 886 irresponsible of this Chancellor to plough on with a The Chancellor claimed he would cut the welfare bill, fiscal plan that we all know is failing on the terms he set. but higher inflation and long-term unemployment mean That is the truth. that the benefits bill is forecast to be billions higher in What a wasted opportunity this statement was. Can this Parliament than he boasted. Let me help him: the Chancellor confirm that the independent OBR looked welfare to work—the clue is in the name. We cannot at the measures he has announced today, and that its have a successful welfare to work programme without verdict is that growth is revised down this year, next work, and we know that the Work programme has year and the year after? totally failed, with only two people in 100 going into permanent jobs. Let me congratulate the Chancellor on taking our advice and stopping January’s fuel duty rise, even though We should require every young and long-term Government Members all voted against it just a month unemployed person to take a job—and make sure ago. We welcome the U-turns on flood defences, in part, there is one there. Let me ask the Chancellor about a on regional pay bargaining in the NHS, and on capital nurse, one of the thousands cut from the NHS in the allowances. After churches, charities, pasties, skips, fuel past two years, who is now struggling to find a new job. and caravans, I think this U-turning is catching on, but For that nurse, he has announced today that he is whatever happened to the plans for the business investment cutting her jobseeker’s allowance for the next three bank? As for yesterday’s announcement on infrastructure years. How can that be fair when he is cutting the top spending, the extra money for schools is just a fraction rate of tax? How can it be fair when someone earning of the cut from the cancellation of Building Schools for £228,000 a year will get a top-rate tax cut of £75 a week the Future. in April, which is more than the £71 the nurse gets to live on through JSA? We have been here before. A year ago, the Prime We learned today that the Chancellor is not just Minister boasted of a national infrastructure plan; hitting those looking for work. The majority of people 12 months on, not a single road scheme has even who lose from his cuts to tax credits are people in started. Why cannot he see that he will not get the work—millions of families striving hard to do the right deficit down without a plan for jobs and growth? Why is thing. What kind of Government believe that you can he not using the 4G money to get 100,000 new homes only make low-paid working people work harder by built? Why is he not offering a national insurance cutting their tax credits, but you only make millionaires holiday for small firms? Why not have a temporary tax work harder by cutting their taxes, Mr Speaker? I tell cut for families? Even the Mayor supports that. Why is you: certainly not a one nation Government. the Chancellor not repeating the bank bonus tax? The Chancellor says he cannot do any of that because it The Government must really believe that if taxes are would lead to higher borrowing. Even his political cut at the top the wealth will trickle down. Let me attacks are backfiring, because this Chancellor’s failed remind the House what the Chancellor told the Conservative plan has given us more welfare spending, higher borrowing party conference in October 2009. He said that and higher debt too. That is the reality. The truth is that “we could not even think of abolishing the 50p rate on the rich the Chancellor has failed on growth and the deficit, but while at the same time I am asking many of our public sector what is his answer? More of the same. workers to accept a pay freeze to protect their jobs.” Let me remind the Chancellor what he told the Those were the Chancellor’s words. He continued: House in the Budget of 2011. He said that “I think we can all agree that would be grossly unfair.” “we have already asked the British people for what is needed, What has changed? Nothing has changed. It was all a and…we do not need to ask for more.”—[Official Report, 23 March con and the mask has slipped. We now know that this 2011; Vol. 525, c. 951.] Chancellor cannot say, “We’re all in this together” But 18 months on the Chancellor has come back for without a smirk on his face. They wanted us to think more, and who does he think should pay? Not the they were compassionate Conservatives. Now we find 8,000 millionaires set to get more than £100,000 each in out that they are the same old Conservatives, and the April. I have to ask the Liberal Democrats: whatever Liberal Democrats have gone along with all of it yet happened to the mansion tax? Do they not realise that, again. even with the changes in the personal allowance, as a What a pity it is not to see the hon. Member for Mid result of the other things they have supported the Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) in her place, back from average family with children on £20,000 is worse off—and the jungle. She may not have succeeded in talking for that is before the VAT rise? the nation on many things but she did speak for the The Chancellor claims that his decision to restrict nation when she called the Prime Minister and the pension tax relief will make the tax system fairer at the Chancellor top. Can he confirm that the £1 billion he is raising is “two arrogant posh boys who don’t know the price of milk.” less than the £1.6 billion that he gave back in pension It is no wonder the Prime Minister keeps losing his tax relief in June 2010? And it is just a fraction of the temper, because his worst nightmare is coming true—not top-rate tax cut—a £3 billion top-rate tax cut at the snakes and spiders in the jungle, but the Government’s same time as the Chancellor is cutting tax credits for fiscal rule broken, their economic credibility in tatters, working families, cutting child benefit for middle-income exposed as incompetent and unfair. Yes, he’s the Chancellor; families, raising taxes on pensioners in April and cutting can’t someone get him out of here? Growth down, benefits for the unemployed. borrowing revised up and the fiscal rules broken: on We do need to reform and modernise our welfare every target they have set themselves, they are failing, state and reduce its cost. Those who can work should failing, failing. They are cutting the NHS, not the work—no ifs or buts. We support a benefit cap, done deficit; they are borrowing more than £212 billion more fairly, with a higher level in London, but let us be clear. than they promised two years ago; and they are cutting 887 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 888

[Ed Balls] position is that if he admitted that the previous Government were responsible for the problems in our country, he taxes for the rich, while struggling families and pensioners would have to admit that he was responsible for them. pay the price—unfair, incompetent and completely out Out of necessity not choice, therefore, the Labour of touch. party leader has a shadow Chancellor who is more associated with the economic mismanagement that led Mr Osborne: There is only one person in the Chamber to Britain’s problems than anyone else in Britain. He who is drowning, and it is the shadow Chancellor. That will not let his party move on. He is a man trapped in was the worst reply to an autumn statement I have ever the past. The one thing the Opposition need to say is: heard in this House. If one thing changes as a result of “We’re sorry. We spent too much and we borrowed too this statement, it might be a shadow Cabinet reshuffle. much, but we won’t do it again”, but that is the one The shadow Chancellor said one thing that was true. thing the shadow Chancellor cannot say. Until he does, He said it right at the beginning—he said that the though, the British public will never trust him or the national deficit was not rising. It was a Freudian slip, Labour party with the public finances again. but it betrayed the fact that he had written his response before he heard my autumn statement and before he Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): What the business looked at the OBR forecast. Let me tell him that we do community—the bedrock of economic recovery—needs not fiddle the numbers in the Treasury any more—that most of all is stability, and I believe that what we have is what happened when he was there. We have an heard today delivers more stability. Does the Chancellor independent Office for Budgetary Responsibility, and agree that businesses, particularly small businesses, need that is the problem he has. His whole policy was about banks that lend? With that in mind, will he examine the complaining that borrowing and the deficit were going radical options to achieve that—opening up banks to up, but that is not what the OBR forecasts show. Indeed, much more competition from new lenders, as the Treasury his prescription is to borrow even more. He complains Committee has recommended; cleaning up bank balance about debt, but he wants to put it up. It is completely sheets, as the Bank of England has advocated in the hopeless. financial stability report; and possibly even breaking up The shadow Chancellor talked about the substance one or more of the state-owned banks to improve their of policies. Here are some simple questions that the funding and hence lending? Labour party will have to answer. If it is against the cut Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend makes a good point: in the income tax rate from 50p to 45p, will it reverse it? many of the problems in our economy are borne of the It is the simplest possible question. [Interruption.] The credit constraints and the elevated bank funding costs, Leader of the Opposition says it has not come in yet. It which I talked about when I mentioned the OBR’s is coming in—it has been legislated for—so, if he is so assessment of the economic forecast. There are several against it and thinks it a moral outrage, will he commit responses. The funding for lending scheme has brought to reverse it? Yes or no? That is hopeless position No. 1. bank funding costs down. That scheme, according to The shadow Chancellor railed at welfare benefits. I the OBR’s assessment, has had an impact, and it is an have another simple question. Will the Opposition support important part of our macro response. I agree with him us or vote against a welfare uprating Bill? What are they that we must do much more to encourage competition going to do? Will they vote for or against the Bill? It is a in our banking system. We have some new entrants, but simple question. For the first time, we have spending we can go further, and we need a much more competitive plans for 2015-16. He said nothing about whether he banking system able to serve the public better. supported those plans, even though he hopes to be Chancellor that year. Does he support those spending David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab): This time last plans? He talked about 3G. [Interruption.] They are year, the Chancellor told me not to worry about youth shouting at me. unemployment on the grounds that his Youth Contract would take care of it. Now we know that 450,000 young Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): 4G. people have been unemployed for more than six months and that 179,000 have gone on to the Work programme Mr Osborne: The 4G licence, yes. We are using the but only 5,920 have got a job as a result. That is 3% of 4G licence. [Interruption.] May I say something about those going on the Work programme and less than the 4G licence? The shadow Chancellor had 20 minutes 2% of the long-term youth unemployed. Will he now to make his points, but he did not make any at all. We agree, without point scoring, to look at the level of the are using the 4G money, in part, for new capital spending, wage subsidy to incentivise take-up, at the structure of including building further education colleges, one of the Work programme, so that voluntary organisations which is called the Leeds city college, in a town called are not squeezed out, and at the role of a part-time job Morley in west Yorkshire. I am not sure what the local guarantee to give hope to these young people? MP would make of the shadow Chancellor’s decision Mr Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman often has that that is not the best use of the money, but he can interesting and intelligent things to say about welfare to look at himself in the mirror and ask that question. work programmes, and I am happy to consider the The shadow Chancellor cannot answer these basic points he makes. I read some of his work earlier this questions. He tries to claim that all the problems in year—it was quite a good job application for being Britain began in May 2010 and that they are all the fault shadow Chancellor. of this Government. Literally only the people in the Brownite cabal claim that; there is not a single other Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Given that person in the Labour party, in any business organisation we need sensible amounts of new money and credit to or in any of the international bodies who believes that. fuel the private sector recovery, will the Chancellor The reason he has to maintain this completely incredible update us on when RBS might be in a position to 889 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 890 increase its balance sheets again—prudently—in order interest that we were forecast to have to pay in 2010, to make those loans available and when it might start to which, as I said in my statement, is more than the entire make a profit for the taxpayer, and will he consider the defence budget. comments of those of us who think it needs to be split up to have more competitive and sensible banking? Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): When the cheering has died down on the Budget statement, it will be just as Mr Osborne: I very much respect my right hon. it was on previous occasions, such as in 2010, when the Friend’s observations on the problems in our banking Chancellor made his first statement. When it was stripped system. There is an aggressive plan to reduce the bad bare, it was a totally different story. In 2010, he promised bank elements of RBS, and that plan is on track, but, as massively to cut the deficit; but here we are, two and a I said earlier, I want more to be done. RBS is reducing half years later, and he has cut the nurses and the the size of its investment bank quite considerably. It national health service. This posh boy never changes. also recently received advice from the Financial Policy Now, instead of being a Bullingdon boy who wrecks the Committee, and I hope it takes that advice into account. hotel rooms, as Chancellor of the Exchequer he wrecks the economy. It is time he went.

Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab): If Mr Osborne: I am not sure that that personal attack I understood the Chancellor correctly, the profile of warrants a proper reply. rising growth that he announced today looks remarkably similar to the profile that he announced in 2010, but Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): My which singularly failed to materialise. That, of course, is right hon. Friend mentioned that 1.2 million jobs had one reason why he has missed his debt target. Will he been created in the private sector. Examples include tell us why we should have any more confidence in the Aker Solutions in Chiswick, in my constituency, which next set of figures, which show recovery, albeit postponed has gone from employing 30 staff to planning to employ for several years? Of all the capital projects that he 1,300 by 2015. Does he agree that this shows the announced today—which I think many of us would Government are rebalancing the economy and encouraging support—how many will start this year? inward investment?

Mr Osborne: The first thing I would say to the right Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: jobs hon. Gentleman is that the forecasts we produce are are being created. Of course the economic situation is independent—they are produced by the Office for Budget tough—it is tough in every western economy at the Responsibility. This is the OBR’s best estimate of what moment—but we are rebalancing our economy. One of will happen to GDP over the next few years. As the the things I have sought to do in today’s statement—it is OBR says, its forecast two years ago was wrong because not the bit that will attract all the newspaper headlines—is of three things, which it talks about. One is that the expand our export promotion effort and ensure that impact of the financial crisis was greater than it had UK Trade and Investment is better at encouraging assessed. Secondly, there was an oil price shock in 2011, exports and investment, ensuring that British overseas which hit all oil-consuming economies. Thirdly, there chambers of commerce are better equipped in the emerging was the impact of the eurozone, which the right hon. economies. All these things are so important, because Gentleman has spoken about at length. All those things one of the big strategic mistakes we made as a country have had an impact, not just on the GDP of this over the last 15 years was not to expand our market country but on basically every western democracy in share—in the way that Germany did, for example—in the world. Indeed, they have also had an impact on those emerging economies, which have become some of the emerging economies. so important. The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point about capital investment. He speaks with experience: it is Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): I often difficult to get these projects out the door. We are have heard the Chancellor make a number of statements speeding up the delivery of these projects—the road to this House. Is it a fair summary to say that every time schemes are under way. The capital we have allocated is he has done so, he has told us that the economy has not for the next two years. The road schemes and the like grown since the last time he was here, that he is planning that I announced are due to start—because they have to borrow more than the last time he was here, that got planning permission—in the next two years. spending on public services will be cut more than the last time he was here, and that future growth will be less than the last time he was here? In view of that record, Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): Is the Chancellor should he be looking quite so pleased with himself? aware that since he sat, down the markets—not the Opposition—have given their verdict? The answer is Mr Osborne: This Government came in in May 2010, this: the latest 10-year bond rate for Italy is 4.5% and picking up the pieces of an incredibly difficult economic for France it is 2%—just over, in fact—while the rate for inheritance. We were recovering from the deepest recession British bonds is only 1.8%. It is the markets that count, since the second world war—which, as I pointed out in not the party that caused the problem in the first place. my statement, was a contraction of over 6% in the economy, which puts today’s numbers into some context— Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend reminds us that we get and we were dealing with the problems in the banking a daily verdict on the credibility of our economic policy system, and we have been hit with the problems in the from bond investors. We are borrowing money more eurozone. Despite all that, we have made progress. We cheaply than anyone who has done my job before us, have got credibility in the bond markets, as my hon. and there is a real benefit for taxpayers and members of Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) the public in that. We have saved £33 billion in debt said, the deficit has come down, and jobs are being 891 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 892

[Mr George Osborne] plans, but will he personally ensure that our transport policy is fully integrated? At present, the proposals for created. It is a difficult situation, but we are on the right HS2 completely ignore any plans we might have to track. Going back, as the right hon. Gentleman would expand our airport capacity. There is little point in suggest, would be a complete disaster. building or announcing any extension to the railway if it does not connect adequately to our major international Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): Liberal Democrat hub airport. Will he personally look into this? priorities for the coalition have been delivering £10,000 of tax-free pay for every working family in the country, Mr Osborne: Of course I understand why my right effective taxes on the wealthy, and closing down hon. Friend speaks on behalf of her constituents who opportunities for tax evasion and tax avoidance. Does will be affected by the High Speed 2 development, but I the Chancellor agree that today’s very welcome news of think that it is the right infrastructure for our country, a further rise in the personal tax threshold—to £9,440, and that it will help to change the economic geography putting us within touching distance of £10,000—a of Britain by connecting some of our northern and restriction on tax relief on pension contributions for the midland cities with London. I hope she will acknowledge very rich, and more resources to tackle tax evasion and that we have been generous with some of the compensation tax avoidance effectively show that the coalition as well. She asked specific questions about the extension Government are committed to tax fairness even in to Heathrow and the design of the route. My right hon. difficult times? Friend the Transport Secretary would be better placed to answer them, and in the new year he will have more Mr Osborne: I do agree with my hon. Friend. It is to say about the route to the north-west and to west worth remembering that we put together these difficult Yorkshire. autumn statements and the like in a coalition. We are able to demonstrate to the rest of the world that Britain has strong and decisive government. I am grateful to my Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): Liberal Democrat colleagues who have helped me in Bloomberg New Energy Finance has demonstrated that this. I hope that Liberal Democrats and Conservatives investment in renewable energy has fallen by a half can celebrate the increase in the personal allowance. since this Government came to power. Does the Chancellor There are many Conservatives who also wanted to not agree that we need to look to the future and to achieve that, and it was in the Liberal Democrat manifesto invest in green jobs? To that end, will he stop the veto in too. The fact that we are able to do that shows that we the Energy Bill of the 2030 decarbonisation target that are helping working people even in these difficult times. has been demanded by 1,500 leading companies in this country and recommended by the Committee on Climate Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I acknowledge Change? some of the positive impacts that this statement will have on Northern Ireland, including saving people from Mr Osborne: This Government have introduced the increases in their electricity bills as a result of the UK Green Investment Bank, which is now making exemption from the carbon price floor, lifting 8,000 people investments. I have also introduced a carbon price floor, out of tax, and an additional £135 million of capital which is recognised around the world as an effective spending. However, given the rocky road that the Chancellor way of ensuring the decarbonisation of our economy in has said lies ahead and given his credibility in the a market-driven way. We have just published the Energy markets, could he not find his way to borrowing more Bill and a levy control framework that would allow for money for infrastructure projects to create jobs, rather new investment in renewables through the rest of this than paying to keep people on the dole? decade. The industry has that certainty, alongside the gas strategy. On the decarbonisation target, we are Mr Osborne: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s support going to take a power in the Bill to set a target, but that for some of the measures we have taken to help the will be a decision for after the next carbon budget, Northern Irish economy, which I am well aware has which will happen in 2016. That is a perfectly sensible particular problems in the banking system which require and rational approach to take. even more attention. I have always sought to respond to the Executive’s proposals where there is a specific case for Northern Ireland, as we did with trans-Atlantic Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): I congratulate the flights, for example. More generally, we are committing Chancellor on a statement that was fair, transparent, additional money to infrastructure, and I want some of business friendly and pro-growth, and that confirmed that additional infrastructure to be in Northern Ireland. that the deficit is not only not rising but falling in every We are also guaranteeing infrastructure projects across year of this Parliament. With 19 days to Christmas, the United Kingdom, and £10 billion of projects have which of his family-friendly measures—including scrapping pre-qualified for that under the legislation we took the fuel duty increase, freezing council tax and raising through Parliament this autumn. That scheme is available the personal allowance next year—does he think will do to people and companies in Northern Ireland, and if most to benefit British families? the Executive want to talk to the Treasury about what more we can do to encourage take-up in Northern Mr Osborne: We have had to take some difficult Ireland, I would be happy for those conversations to decisions on welfare uprating and on tax threshold take place. uprating, but I have tried to help families where I can with the personal allowance and with fuel duty. I Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): have also tried to help businesses, and the annual I welcome my right hon. Friend’s proposals, particularly investment allowance increase to £250,000 will be extremely the extension of the expenditure envelope for infrastructure welcome. 893 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 894

Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) opportunity to bring together all the myriad schemes (Lab): How can the Chancellor seriously pretend that announced by various Governments on business finance, he is cracking down on tax avoidance when the £7 finance for SMEs and the like, which are sometimes billion he referred to today will take up to seven years to confusing, so that the business community has just one realise, at a rate of about £1 billion a year, against a rate place to go to. As I have said, I have announced £1 billion of tax avoidance of £35 billion a year? The general extra for the business bank. anti-avoidance rule that he mentioned is far too narrowly drawn to be effective and—[Interruption.] I hope that Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): I he will listen to this. At the same time, he is introducing thank the Chancellor profusely for ending the appalling a tax cut from 23% to just 5% for multinationals in tax delay in the building of the A5-M1 link, the construction havens. of which was first announced by the previous Government in 2003. That road will contribute massively to the Mr Osborne: I do not think that the right hon. south Bedfordshire economy, enabling us to contribute Gentleman has the right figures. We are increasing the to the regeneration of UK plc. amount recovered from taxes that should have been paid from £13 billion under the Labour Government to Mr Osborne: I thank my hon. Friend for campaigning £20 billion. That £7 billion increase, plus the £2 billion assiduously for that project. He has made a strong case that I have announced today, makes a £9 billion increase for how the new link road will open up the prospect of in the taxes that should have been collected and that we real economic development as well as dealing with are now collecting. I hope he will welcome and support traffic congestion. That is exactly the kind of programme that. By the way, we have also got rid of the situation that we can undertake—it did not happen under the last that happened when the current Leader of the Opposition Labour Government—because we have made the switch and the shadow Chancellor were in the Treasury, in from current spending to capital spending. Again, I which people in the City were paying lower tax rates congratulate him on the campaign that he has fought, than the people who cleaned for them. We have dealt which I think has involved quite a few Adjournment with that problem. debates in the House. Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Given the falling Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will the number of nurses in the NHS, does the Chancellor Chancellor note that businesses in the north-east will recognise that people will view with scepticism what he welcome the announcements that he has made today, has said about protecting the NHS? Will he also including that of the removal of bottlenecks on the A1 acknowledge that passing on a 2% cut to local government south of Newcastle, but that there will be concern that will involve cuts to adult social services across the he has not yet announced any progress towards dualling country, affecting the vulnerable, the disabled and the the A1 north of Newcastle, a project that his own party elderly? promised in 1992? Mr Osborne: We have provided billions more for Mr Osborne: I am glad that my right hon. Friend social care—[Interruption.] I just want to make this welcomes the decision to increase the A1 to motorway point to Labour Members. They want to be in government, standard between the M25 and Newcastle. He makes a and they claim that they want to cut the deficit, but powerful point about the A1 north of Newcastle, and I what would they cut? They object to the local government can tell him that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is settlement, the defence settlement, the NHS budget and also a powerful advocate of that road scheme. It is one the education budget, even though the budgets on the of the things that the Department for Transport will NHS and schools are going up, so what exactly would look at as well, so it is certainly not off the cards. What I they do? It was evident from the shadow Chancellor’s have committed to today is the dualling of the A1 up to response today that they do not actually have anything motorway standard all the way to Newcastle. to say on these matters. If they had a credible deficit plan, we would listen to their questions about the Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): priorities for these plans. The Chancellor has re-announced the creation of the business bank and the funding for it, which is welcome John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): The investment of in itself. However, there is widespread incomprehension £270 million in schools and further education colleges is in the business community as to how that will facilitate extremely welcome. If schools and colleges in my lending to small and medium-sized enterprises. Will he constituency have plans on the runway that are ready to take this opportunity to explain how the bank will fill in take off but just need a little bit of additional financial for small businesses in a way that the existing banking support, will the Chancellor help them to take the leap? structure does not? Mr Osborne: I am very happy to look personally at Mr Osborne: My right hon. Friend the Business the case that my hon. Friend makes for his local education Secretary will set out more detail about the business facilities. These are of course decisions for other bank. What I have confirmed today is the £1 billion of Departments, but we have provided the money for additional capital. Our ambition is that this will help to further education, for new free schools and academies, lever in private sector capital as well. Through the and for expanding places, and I am sure that Carlisle business finance partnership, which is not included in should be near the top of the list. this £1 billion, we have already undertaken work to get more non-bank financing to medium-sized companies Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab): Is the in particular. We are looking at similar models for the Chancellor aware that, because of his continuing inadequate business bank, and my right hon. Friend will make an level of funding for school building, which today’s announcement on that. We are also going to use the statement does not correct, London Councils—a cross-party 895 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 896

[Steve Reed] fund that will allow good schools to expand. Can he tell us when that might be in place, as the need is more body—is estimating that, by 2016, one in every 10 primary pressing in some areas than in others, particularly around school-aged child will not have a permanent school Basildon, where I would like to see the Lee Chapel place? primary school expand rapidly?

Mr Osborne: I should like to take this opportunity to Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend makes a powerful case welcome the hon. Gentleman to the House of Commons for Basildon, its schools and the particular school he and to congratulate him on his by-election victory. He mentioned. I will make sure that the Education Secretary rightly wants to speak on behalf of his constituents, but hears the argument he makes. The money is available I would point out that the pressure on London school over the next two years. places has existed for some years and was a huge issue when we came into office. We have provided additional capital spending for new school places. We have also Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): announced more than £1 billion today to deal with What will the Chancellor do to make sure that any areas where there is high pressure. He makes a powerful Scottish Barnett consequentials from capital projects case for Croydon, and I will make sure that my right will be used to create jobs in Scotland, and not in hon. Friend the Education Secretary hears him. China, which is what we saw the Scottish Government doing in awarding the contract for the Forth road Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): More money bridge? for the regional growth fund and local enterprise partnerships is great news for Yorkshire. Can the Chancellor Mr Osborne: There will be additional capital spending. give further details of that? We have a devolved arrangement so it will be up to the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament to Mr Osborne: There will be more money for the make a decision about how that money is spent. Of regional growth fund. That has been helpful in securing course, I expect Scottish Members here and Labour, and creating up to half a million new jobs. I am glad to Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members of the say that I am sure businesses across Yorkshire will Scottish Parliament to hold the Scottish National party benefit from that. We are also, of course, investing in to account for the decisions it takes. More broadly, its enterprise zones and LEPs across Yorkshire, and Yorkshire independence programme would be a disaster for the businesses will benefit from the enhanced capital allowance Scottish economy. and the increase in the annual investment allowance. George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Families and Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Seven businesses in my constituency will welcome the news Government Get Britain Building launches have proved that £76 billion-worth of reductions in the cost of to be false dawns. Housing starts are down; homelessness government, £18 billion-worth of reductions in welfare is up; we have a mortgage market where people cannot and £33 billion-worth of interest payments have allowed get mortgages and rents are at a record high in the a Conservative Chancellor to lower taxes for the poorest private rented sector. Does the Chancellor now accept and create a million new jobs. Does my right hon. that his decision to cut £4 billion-worth of investment Friend agree with me that plan B is nothing more than a was directly responsible for a 60% collapse in affordable plan for borrowing and bankruptcy? house building? Will he now accept personal responsibility as the Chancellor of the Exchequer presiding over the Mr Osborne: I am not sure that I can add much to biggest housing crisis in a generation? that, except to say that I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Mr Osborne: House building was at an all-time low under the Labour Government—the lowest, I think, since the 1920s or 1930s. That is what had happened. Of Mr Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): I have course, things such as problems in the mortgage market heard mention of at least a dozen Tory MPs in marginal were created by the banking crisis and the financial seats getting a lot of money, but I have not heard much crisis. The banking crisis happened, by the way, when about the north-east getting money. I hope the Chancellor the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) will not come and give us what he gave us last year, was the City Minister. The funding for lending scheme when he said that the port of Blyth was going to get an is bringing mortgage costs down. The first buy scheme enterprise zone. We have 14 hectares. We have put a helps with shared equity, and the new buy scheme is fence around it and made it into an allotment garden. helping people who cannot afford their first deposit, so we have those schemes out there, helping to repair Mr Osborne: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on problems in the financial markets. We are also committing his assiduous campaign for an enterprise zone in the money for additional affordable homes and we are port of Blyth. That enterprise zone is going ahead. As a providing guarantees to social landlords to build not Conservative Chancellor, may I also congratulate him just social homes, but homes for the private rented on his campaign, along with many other hon. Members, sector. We are dealing with the problems that occurred for the dualling of the A1 all the way to Newcastle? when the hon. Gentleman’s party was in office. Since I know that Blyth is north of Newcastle, I point out that, as I said to my right hon. Friend the Member Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), we are looking (Con): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his at further dualling to the Scottish border, but that is for statement, and I would particularly like to welcome the another time. 897 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 898

Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): I congratulate the Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Of course I welcome Chancellor on his decision on capital allowances, which the Chancellor’s confirmation of ultra-fast broadband I think will be a major boost for industry. Over the next for Digital Derry, and the announcements on the carbon 20 years, the aerospace industry across the world will price floor and the fuel duty, but I am afraid that on invest between $6 trillion and $7 trillion on new aeroplanes. personal taxation and benefits, the Chancellor is becoming This country is the second biggest aerospace provider in something of a fiscal drag artist. On another tax front, I the world, and this is twice the capacity we have now. welcome the fact that he has cut through all the Treasury Does the Chancellor agree that we must continue to excusery against the general anti-abuse rule, but surely invest in advanced manufacturing, particularly in aerospace, it needs to be more robust. If it is going to be a and that we should carry on trying to get young people meaningful priority of the G8 presidency to co-ordinate involved? members against corporate tax conjuring, the Chancellor surely has to start by revisiting the controlled foreign Mr Osborne: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. company rules that he made in the last Budget. I congratulate him on the work he has done to make the case for capital allowances to help small and medium-sized Mr Osborne: First, I thank the hon. Gentleman for businesses in Lancashire and in his Burnley constituency. his support of our decision to provide ultra-fast broadband He wrote a report, which I thought was compelling, and to Derry/Londonderry, and I congratulate the city on a he put in the work of listening to his local manufacturers. very good bid, which competed against other bids across He is completely right about manufacturing. I have the UK. He is also right to say that we are helping the been to some very high-tech manufacturing businesses Northern Ireland energy sector with decisions on the in north Lancashire, which make components for some carbon price floor, which I did not have space in my of the most up-to-date jet engines in the world. We are statement to announce, but they are in the book. I am investing more money in the aerospace supply chain, glad that he acknowledges those aspects. More broadly, and as I announced today, we are investing more in the Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK will benefit advanced manufacturing supply chain. With the help of when we help people who work hard and want to get on my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary, we are with the personal allowance and when we help small determined to make sure that Britain’s premier place in businesses and motorists with the fuel duty. We are aerospace is maintained. doing all these things and are making sure that they apply to Northern Ireland as well. Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): If we look at the small print, we see that the only reason why borrowing Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): Given that has fallen this year is that the Government have added income tax has been cut for 25 million people, the in the proceeds of the 4G mobile spectrum auction into income tax of people on the minimum wage has been this year’s figures, even though Government delays have cut in half and up to 2 million people have been taken meant that the auction has not yet taken place. If those out of tax altogether, does my right hon. Friend agree figures were not added in for this year and we did not that our Government, and indeed our party, are on the have this £3.5 billion pencilled in for the receipt from side of ordinary working men and women? that, borrowing would be £2 billion higher this year than it was last year. Is that not the case? Mr Osborne: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. We Mr Osborne: The deficit and borrowing are falling have made difficult decisions on welfare uprating—we any way the public figures are presented. We have done have asked the rich to pay more—but, as I have said, this in a completely transparent way. As I was explaining we have done that not only to help to deal with the to the shadow Chancellor, the 4G money has been used deficit, but to help people who work hard and want to to refurbish, for example, the further education college get on. That is precisely what we have done today in Morley. Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Further to Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I warmly welcome the the answer that the Chancellor gave my right hon. announcement of the Government’s support for the Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), Northern line extension in the important Nine Elms- will he admit that in 2010 he cut public spending in the Vauxhall development. Does he agree that it is not just north-east by £2.8 billion, that last year he gave us the 16,000 new homes and 25,000 new jobs that are 0.03% of the capital spend, and that this year he gave us important, but the message that a high-profile scheme 3%? Far from being fair, does that not mark a transfer such as this sends out to the world beyond the UK—that of resources from the north to the south? Britain and London are open for business—is also crucial? Mr Osborne: Under this Government, the level of capital spending is higher than the level in the plans that Mr Osborne: The Battersea power plant development we inherited from the last Labour Government—which is, as I said in my statement, as big as the Olympic the hon. Lady supported at the time of the last Labour park—it is an enormous project, and I am very pleased Budget—and, indeed, we have added to it today. that we have our Malaysian partners investing in the Under this Government, the level of public investment site. We have done our bit by providing this loan and as a proportion of GDP is higher than the average this guarantee that will help to pay for the Northern line level under the Labour Government. As for investment extension into Battersea power station. I commend my in the north, there is the investment in the A1, the hon. Friend—I have been to the site with her—and I investment in High Speed 2, and the investment in know what an enormous boost this will be, not just for the northern rail hub. There is a whole load of her constituents but for the whole of London and, investment in the transport infrastructure of the indeed, Britain. north and the north-east because we are helping this 899 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 900

[Mr George Osborne] Mr Osborne: I am glad that the hon. Lady welcomes the announcement of ultra-fast broadband for Brighton country, which suffered so much under the Labour and Hove. As for energy, we are increasing investment Government, when the gap between the north and the in renewable energy. We have set a levy control framework south grew. for the period up to 2020, which is a longer time frame than has been set by any Government before us, and Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I congratulate that will increase the investment in renewable energy my right hon. Friend on announcing the abolition of that the hon. Lady wants to see. However, I also think Labour’s expensive private finance initiative schemes, that it is fair for Britain to have a mix of energy sources, but may I ask him what the impact will be on schemes and for gas to be part of that. Gas is lower in carbon on which we have already agreed and which are awaiting than the coal-fired generation that is being phased out. approval, such as the one involving a replacement for We want a proper mix, and we want to do what we can the Royal National Orthopaedic hospital in my to keep bills down while at the same time allowing constituency? investment in new energy infrastructure. Mr Osborne: We do not intend to disrupt existing David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): It is often said PFI schemes—although, sadly, there are not many left, that when a challenge must be faced, two Eds are better because so many dried up at the very end of the last than one. Does the Chancellor believe that that applies Labour Government’s time in office owing to financing to economic policy? problems—and the new PFI 2 will help to restart private and public investment. The big difference is that from Mr Osborne: I am not sure that they will be such now on, instead of the public sector bearing the risk close friends today after the shadow Chancellor’s response and getting none of the reward—as has happened, for to my statement. However, we do not need to guess example, in the case of a hospital project not in my hon. what the economic policy of the Leader of the Opposition Friend’s part of London but in south-east London—it and the shadow Chancellor might be, because we have will share in the upside as well. lived through it. They caused the biggest boom and the biggest bust in our history, despite advising the then Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Chancellor at the time to say that he would abolish Can the Chancellor confirm that the capital spending boom and bust. that he has announced for free schools amounts to less than a third of the cuts in the capital budgets for Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): In the interests schools and colleges? of transparency, will the Chancellor confirm that the only reason he was able to say in his statement that Mr Osborne: Capital spending is higher than the level borrowing would be less this year was the inclusion of in the plans that we inherited from the last Labour the proceeds from the 4G sale, which has not actually Government. That is simply the case. We inherited big happened yet? planned cuts in capital spending, and we have increased Mr Osborne: As I have said, we have set out the capital spending, off those plans. We have that new public finance numbers applying to all the different money for schools, and I would hope that the hon. Lady scenarios, and, as I have said, we are spending the 4G would welcome that. money on, for example, the further education college in Morley. We are also using it to increase the annual Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Can investment allowance from the beginning of January. my right hon. Friend confirm that someone earning £10,000 who would have paid £1,180 in national insurance Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): contributions and income tax in 2010-11 will pay £380 Hundreds of thousands of firemen, police officers, nurses in 2013-14? Does that not show that Government Members and council workers throughout the country will be support people and families on low incomes, unlike the very pleased to learn that my right hon. Friend has Labour party? ruled out the introduction of regional pay, but teachers may have some concerns. Can my right hon. Friend Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend speaks very powerfully assure us that none of them will lose out in respect of about the way in which we have helped people. We have any move towards greater incentivisation in the profession? helped basic rate taxpayers by increasing the personal allowance, we have taken 2 million of the lowest paid Mr Osborne: We asked the pay review bodies to make out of work, and we have halved the income tax bill for reports, and we have adopted their recommendations. people on the minimum wage; but, above all, we have My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education helped working families throughout the country with a will set out more details of the way in which we will further income tax cut today. implement the recommendations of the teachers’ pay review body, but it does include the uprating of the Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): One minimum and maximum bands in line with general glimmer of good news was the announcement of ultra-fast public pay policy. broadband for Brighton, and I thank the Chancellor for that, but there is plenty of bad news about the dash for Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): gas. Not only will it bust our climate targets, but it The announcement of additional investment in transport simply is not cheap. Deutsche Bank, the CBI and the is very welcome, but can the Chancellor assure us that it International Energy Agency all say that gas prices will really is additional spending, and that it will not be paid rise. This is the Government who say that they like to for by the postponing of existing programmes now that make evidence-based policy, so why will the Chancellor the size of the Department for Transport has been so not look at the evidence in this instance? drastically reduced? 901 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 902

Mr Osborne: I can confirm that it is additional capital Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): spending, and that it is not a substitute for any other Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Opposition capital spending on transport. Moreover—I did not plans for £200 billion of extra spending, extra borrowing mention this in my statement, but it is in the document—we and extra debt would damage this country’s economic are providing money for road schemes that are in the credibility, and ultimately lead to interest rates rising for pipeline, to ensure that the development of new road families and businesses in my constituency and across schemes is not squeezed out by the capital that we are the whole country? giving to existing ones. Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Can my right That is precisely what the Labour party offers: more hon. Friend confirm that since he became Chancellor of borrowing, more debt, and a return to the mess it left the Exchequer, he has abolished Labour’s fuel duty this country in. People are not going to trust Labour escalator, cut the rate of fuel duty and frozen it at the with the public finances again, and they are particularly new levels? As a result, from January the typical motorist not going to trust the shadow Chancellor again. in Kettering and throughout the country will pay £5 less every time he fills up at the pump. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): In my constituency, 15.9% of young people aged between 18 and 24 are Mr Osborne: I suppose we are used to opportunism unemployed. That is twice the national average. What is from the Opposition, but we see no greater opportunism in the autumn statement for them? from them than that relating to fuel duty. The fuel duty rises that we have cancelled were not part of some Mr Osborne: First, of course any young person who mythical plan; they were voted for by Labour Members cannot get a job is a matter of regret, but youth of Parliament at the time of the last Labour Budget— unemployment has fallen this year. Our welfare to work including, of course, by the shadow Chancellor. My schemes are helping get people back to work, and our hon. Friend is absolutely right: fuel is 10p per litre work experience scheme in particular is doing a great cheaper than it would have been if we had adopted the job of getting people into work, so I would ask those shadow Chancellor’s Budget plans. young people to go to their jobcentre and see the schemes that are available. As I have said, 1.2 million Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): Let me jobs have been created in the private sector over the past return the House to an answer that the Chancellor gave couple of years, in what are very difficult circumstances. about PFI. He slipped the new PFI 2 scheme into his I hope that, with the measures we announced today, statement today, but is it not being criticised on the business will be able to create some more jobs. grounds that it is not good value for money—that value for money will, indeed, fall—that it will cost the taxpayer Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): On behalf of my more, and that most of the projects will still be off the colleagues and FairFuelUK, I thank my right hon. Government’s balance sheet? What has changed? Friend for putting fuel back into the fuel tanks of white-van Conservatives across the country. Can he Mr Osborne: I do not accept that characterisation at confirm that the scrapping of the 3p petrol rise not only all. I talked about this matter in the statement, and, of for three months, but permanently, as he has said today, course, I expect people to look in detail at the document will mean the average Harlow motorist will be better off we have published. There are two substantial changes. by £80 to £100 next year? First, there will be public sector investment alongside private investment. The public sector will have a share Mr Osborne: As I said in my statement, I congratulate in the equity and will have representation on the boards my hon. Friend on speaking for motorists and families of these projects to make sure both that we share in the across the country against Labour’s fuel tax rises. He upside and that we know what is going on with these speaks for Harlow man and woman, and I am glad that, projects, instead of the absolute scandal that we saw as a result of his campaigning and the difficult decisions under the last Government when on many occasions we have taken elsewhere to control public spending, we the public sector was ripped off. The hospitals in south-east have been able to cancel altogether that fuel duty rise London are living with the consequences of that. due for January. Secondly, there will be more on balance sheet in Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): future, but there will also be off balance sheet, and we When the Chancellor describes those on benefits as are going to have new off balance sheet totals and people who sleep while others work, he does himself no controlled totals so that there is more transparency. I credit whatever. Of course the cheats have to be dealt will say more in the Budget about how we are going to with, but most of these people are decent people— account for off balance sheet. pensioners and parents who are struggling to make ends meet. Given that they already face cuts to their Several hon. Members rose— benefits and public services, how can it be right that they are now to have a real-terms cut to their poverty-level Mr Speaker: Order. The statement covers matters incomes while millionaires keep their handouts? that are already the subject of much public interest and comment, so I am keen to accommodate as many Mr Osborne: Out-of-work benefits have increased by colleagues as possible. If I am to do so within any 20% over the last five years, while average earnings in reasonable time frame, however, some pithiness from the public and private sectors have gone up by 10%. We Back and Front Benches alike is required, and I am sure have to make difficult decisions, and I think it is a fair we will be led in our mission by Mr Andrew Bridgen. decision to uprate working age benefits by 1%. We are 903 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 904

[Mr George Osborne] the jobs and investment shale gas projects bring. My hon. Friend is right that this new single office must also uprating the higher-rate tax threshold by 1%. This make sure that regulation is straightforward and simple is a fair decision. If the right hon. Gentleman can while also being rigorous so that local communities are recommend other ways of taking substantial sums out protected. of the Government’s bill, let him come forward with them—and I still have not heard from a single Labour Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): MP whether they will be voting for or against the The north-east is the only UK region with an export welfare uprating Bill. surplus, which shows that where there is demand, we rise to the challenge, but it is also the region with the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): One way the highest unemployment rate, so why is the Chancellor Chancellor could produce a lot of money at no expense attacking the unemployed as workshy scroungers living to the British economy is, of course, by not going ahead a life on benefits and doing nothing to get demand and with overseas aid at 0.7% of gross national income. jobs back in the economy? How much additional borrowing will be required to meet that commitment? Mr Osborne: I have never used that language at all. Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend and I have a genuine What I have said is that we have got to make savings in disagreement on this matter. I think it is right for this the benefits bill and, in my view, it is very important country to honour its obligations to the world’s poorest. that we have fairness in our society. One element of I think we should be proud to be a part of, and support, fairness is that people on out-of-work benefits should what will be the first Government in British history to not be earning more on average than the family that reach the 0.7% target. I have had to rebase the aid goes to work, which is why we have introduced the budget because of the GDP forecast, as I do not want benefits cap. I could not quite understand what the to spend more than 0.7% of national income. As a shadow Chancellor was saying about Labour’s position result, the Department for International Development on the benefits cap. He certainly led all Labour Members has had one of the biggest adjustments to its budget of through the Division Lobby time and again against the all Departments. benefits cap, but I think they will want to check exactly what he said in reply to my statement. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): Last year the Chancellor announced more money for Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): This morning City infrastructure, but, as we know, not one single project A.M. reported that just 6% of the public appreciate that has been delivered. Why should we believe the this Government have been forced to put up the national additional funding announced today will be any more debt. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the deficit productive? is coming down, and will he take steps to ensure that discussion in the media is based on the facts, not the Mr Osborne: That claim is simply not true. Road incoherence and cruel fairy tales of the Labour party? projects are being completed across the country and infrastructure is being deployed. The science infrastructure, Mr Osborne: I will certainly work with my hon. for example, has now all been completed, and I have Friend and publications such as City A. M. to make announced £600 million more for science. If the hon. sure that happens. The deficit is how much is added to Lady is saying that it takes a long time to get some the debt each year, and we are getting the deficit down. infrastructure projects going because of the constraints We inherited the highest budget deficit in the world, and in the planning system, however, she is right. That is we have been able to reduce it by 25%. why we have also taken steps to streamline the process we inherited so it is easier to get things built by tackling the bureaucracy that has to be dealt with, while at the Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): The Treasury same time allowing those who have objections to have will benefit by £1.1 billion per annum from the high them fairly heard. earners’ pension pot cut and by £3.7 billion per annum from benefit claimants. Is this not just an inconvenience Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): I am pleased the for the rich but a catastrophe for the poor? Chancellor has today announced that there will be a shale gas regulator office. Can he assure me that its Mr Osborne: As I say, we have had to make difficult work will be transparent and will lead to my constituents decisions. Are Labour Members against the uprating of getting the assurances they need that this important welfare benefits by 1%? We will find out when the Bill is process will be safe? before Parliament—at the moment, they are not telling us how they would vote on that measure. We have had Mr Osborne: First, let me say that I completely to make difficult decisions, but let me repeat what I have understand why my hon. Friend wants to make sure, on said at this Dispatch Box: the rich are paying more as a behalf of his constituents in Lancashire, that any share of our income tax in every single year of this development of shale gas or unconventional gas that is Government than they did in any one year of the undertaken is environmentally safe and safe for local 13 years of the Labour Government. The pensions tax communities. We are absolutely determined to ensure measure is a difficult measure, but we felt it was necessary that that is the case. That is why we stopped the exploration to take it. We have also increased the amount of money that was taking place until we were sure that it was safe, we are getting from dealing with tax avoidance and we and a decision on that is still pending from the Energy have taken decisions such as putting stamp duty up to Secretary. As has been demonstrated in the United 7%. We have done all those things, not one of which was States, however, local communities often benefit from done by the Labour party. 905 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 906

Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Half a dozen Does that not constitute a significant barrier to work European Ministers, from within the eurozone and for as many as 1 million women and mean that for many outside it, have stated in terms that they do not believe households work does not pay? that growth should be used as a pretext for running up more and more debt. Does my right hon. Friend agree Mr Osborne: We have announced new entitlements that those Ministers show a degree of foresight and on child care, such as the entitlement for two-year-olds common sense that is sadly lacking in the shadow from more disadvantaged families to nursery places, Chancellor? which did not exist under the previous Government. We are also working on new proposals on child care, and I Mr Osborne: That powerful point was made by the hope in the first half of next year to bring those Finance Ministers of not only Germany and Sweden forward. but some of the Baltic states. One of the tragedies of British economic management under the last Government Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): May I is that we went into the crisis with a huge structural warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s announcement deficit. The International Monetary Fund has now on personal allowances and say how proud I am to be assessed that Britain carried the largest structural deficit part of a Government who have halved the income tax of any major western economy going into the banking on the lowest earners in our society? Which does he crash, yet extraordinarily the shadow Chancellor goes think represents the true one-nation politician: those around saying that there was no structural deficit. If we who in difficult times have halved the income tax on the had managed our public finances like Germany, for lowest earners or those who during the boom times example, we would be in better shape. doubled it?

Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Mr Osborne: I suspect Benjamin Disraeli was (PC): The Treasury-sponsored Silk commission recently considerably better at the Dispatch Box than the shadow recommended the devolution of minor taxes to the Chancellor, too. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to Welsh Government and a tax-sharing arrangement for say that we have taken decisions to help the working income tax, partially to incentivise the Welsh Government poor, through taking them out of income tax and to develop the Welsh economy. When will the Treasury through the personal allowance increase for 24 million publish a timetable for implementation, as well as the people. Whether Conservative or Liberal Democrat in bilateral agreement on borrowing powers? this Government, we can be absolutely proud of the decision we have taken on the personal allowance in Mr Osborne: We welcome the work that the Silk these very difficult times. commission has done. It asks some big questions about the devolution of fiscal powers to Wales. The Treasury Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): Did the Chancellor and the Wales Office here in London are sitting down hear the very loud message coming from the people of with the Welsh Assembly Government to work through Corby and east Northamptonshire that they believe his the details of the proposals. I hope that the hon. Gentleman economic policies are failing? Does he recognise that understands and accepts that we have taken a big step they will have heard his statement today and believed it forward with the Silk commission and now have a text to be complacent and wrong? Can he specifically confirm we can work on. How much we can implement will, of for the people of Corby and east Northamptonshire the course, be a matter for democratic decisions in this real picture on borrowing? If we take out the £3.5 billion House and in the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff. that is counted in for the 4G auction, borrowing will actually be higher this year than last. Will he give us the Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): Businesses across real cash figures? south Essex will welcome the commitment that my right hon. Friend has made to improving the road infrastructure Mr Osborne: First, may I congratulate the hon. around the M25, which is its biggest constraint on Gentleman on his election in Corby? We were talking growth and job creation. That illustrates the Government’s earlier about construction projects that had not been real commitment to creating more jobs in this vibrant started. I saw for myself on an enjoyable visit to Corby, sector. Does he agree that the Exchequer will benefit which was ultimately unsuccessful in terms of the hugely from the increased tax receipts that will be by-election, the Corby link road which is being built—I generated by those increases in jobs and growth? hope he would welcome it. As I say, we have set out the public finance numbers, and we have taken the decision Mr Osborne: I congratulate my hon. Friend on the to use the spectrum money to help with further education campaign she has fought on behalf of her constituents, and to fund the annual investment allowance, which and on behalf of jobs in Thurrock and elsewhere. The starts in January next year—in this financial year. junction 30 upgrade will help to secure the largest port investment in the whole of northern Europe—it is a Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What action is my fantastic thing for the area, it will create many jobs and right hon. Friend taking to close the tax gap and enable she has played a real part in helping to deliver it. British business to complete on a level tax playing field, after the serious failure to modernise or enforce our Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): With business tax system over the past decade by the previous the average wage 7.9% lower in real terms than it was Labour Government? when this Chancellor took office, does he not share the sense of real disappointment across the country that he Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend has been a powerful did not announce any new measures on child care, the advocate for a more competitive business tax system in cost of which is rising at twice the rate of inflation? this country, and we have reduced again the headline 907 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 908

[Mr George Osborne] fund and made substantial transport improvements in the east and west midlands, which I hope will also rate of corporation tax. That makes it even more of an benefit businesses in her constituency. advantage for companies to headquarter and pay their taxes here, and it is part of what we are doing to win the Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I warmly global race. I congratulate him on the advice and support welcome the Chancellor’s statement and pay particular he gives in this area. tribute to the increase in the pension draw-down limit and the increase in the ISA allowance. Will the Chancellor Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) tell the House when he expects them to be implemented? (SNP): It is good to hear a UK Chancellor say that the Mr Osborne: The ISA uprating takes place as normal. private finance initiative is discredited—10 to 15 years The draw-down limit will be in the Finance Bill, which after the Scottish National party did so. It is good, too, we will introduce next week. to hear of his belated conversion to some capital expenditure for shovel-ready projects—we wasted a couple of years Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): Is by not listening to the SNP. We have had lost years of this Chancellor not presiding over a series of false ever-growing debt paying for failure rather than growth, economies? There is a long list, but let me draw his and that is projected to last until 2018. I wonder whether attention to one of them. Recent analysis has shown the Chancellor will introduce some competition to his that the level of his draconian and unfair cuts to job and perhaps return economic powers to Scotland, Manchester’s local government budget is the same as so that the Scottish Government can show him how it is the increase to the benefits bill in Manchester since the done and get us out of the mess a little quicker. election. Would it not be better if he invested in our future rather than us all paying the price for his failure? Mr Osborne: The steps we have taken today, for example, to provide additional capital spending in Scotland, Mr Osborne: I welcome the hon. Lady to the House show the strengths of Scotland’s being part of a United of Commons and congratulate her on her by-election Kingdom that is able to borrow money on world markets victory—[Interruption.] I did not find time to visit at exceptionally low rates. The SNP has still not answered Manchester Central during the by-election. We are the most basic questions about currency, about monetary providing a great deal of investment in Manchester. We policy management, and about the cost of debt and the have the new enterprise zone and we are working with like. Until the SNP can answer those fundamental Manchester city council on the northern hub, which questions about economic management, I do not think will have an enormous impact—in a good sense—on anyone is going to trust it with taking over control of Manchester. We have listened to and worked with the that entire economic management through independence. local authority on that. As someone who represents many of the people who go to work in her constituency, Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): One thing I I think that over the past couple of years, in working was delighted not to hear in the statement was the with the local authorities, we have done a great deal to Prime Minister’s bizarre idea of scrapping housing benefits improve Manchester’s prospects. for the under-25s. Will the Chancellor tell the House whether it was omitted because he now realises that it Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): The Chancellor has set would have been a mistake, that not all young people out clearly how, in order to avoid the next generation have loving, stable families to live with, and that they having to pay for this generation, the Government are need and deserve our support—or was it just that we in entirely right to continue to get the deficit down. May I the Liberal Democrats would not let him do it? welcome his support for wealth-creating private business and particularly the relief on business rates for new Mr Osborne: I think that is a slightly sour note from commercial property, which will both stimulate the my Liberal Democrat colleagues. We have put together construction sector and improve the availability of premises an autumn statement as a coalition Government and we for growing businesses? have supported the priorities we both share, which Mr Osborne: In my statement, I had to choose just a include the personal allowance increase, dealing with couple of hon. Members who have brought that issue to fuel duty and investment allowances for businesses. We my attention, but I should put it on record that my hon. have collectively taken the difficult decision on welfare Friend was one of those who came to see me to campaign uprating; it is the best way, at present, to try to make for action on empty property rate relief to mitigate the savings in the welfare bill. damage that it has done to some of our cities and towns since its introduction by the previous Labour Government. Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): The regional growth The 18-month grace period will help the construction fund has not delivered a penny in Ashfield, and local of new commercial premises, and I congratulate him on business leaders across the east midlands are saying that the work he has done on behalf of his constituents to the scheme just is not working. So what changes will the bring that about. Chancellor make to ensure that my constituents benefit from the regional growth fund? Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): The Chancellor has taken on a ghastly, ghostly, deathly pallor that Mr Osborne: I am very happy to look into the specific suggests he knows that he has been rumbled. The situation for businesses in Ashfield if the hon. Lady money from the 4G mobile auction has not come in yet. wants to write to me—or we can meet and I will see When it comes in, he can spend it on whatever he likes, what I can do to help. Businesses in Ashfield and but he cannot offset it against borrowing before it has elsewhere across the east midlands are eligible for the come in. Why does he not come clean and admit that regional growth fund. We have put more money into the borrowing has gone up and the rest of it is just a con? 909 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 910

Mr Osborne: I think we have roughly the same pallor, development agencies, but does he agree that that money from looking at the hon. Gentleman. We have been should be available to people in the west midlands and completely transparent. We have published the OBR that local taxpayers should not be forced to buy those forecasts. They are independent and people will look at assets twice? Will he insist on transparency to help west them and draw their own conclusion, which is that midlands MPs try to get to the bottom of what has under Labour borrowing went up and up whereas under gone on? this Government the deficit has come down. Mr Osborne: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): The claimant and I am happy to respond in writing on his specific count in Worcester today is 500 lower than it was in point about Advantage West Midlands. I will get back 2010, when the city had a Labour MP, and youth to him with the details. unemployment is 150 lower. In that context, may I welcome the Chancellor’s early response to the Heseltine Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): review? Extra money for LEPs, the regional growth The average weekly gross pay in my constituency is fund, the increase in capital allowance and investment £490, which is less than the UK average. The huge in infrastructure should mean that that good progress increase in personal allowance benefits my constituents can continue. significantly as well as people across the country, so may I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his work to Mr Osborne: I am delighted that there has been that take so many people out of tax and urge him to continue good news in my hon. Friend’s constituency and I hope his efforts to make work pay? that with the new investment allowance for businesses in his area there will be more jobs. He is right to say that Mr Osborne: I will certainly continue those efforts to the Heseltine review also asks big questions of us as a ensure that work pays and that we have a welfare system Parliament about how we spend money locally and that encourages work, in which it always pays to work whether we should create a single pot for which LEPs and in which working people in Harrogate, Knaresborough could make bids. I have announced that we want to and elsewhere are rewarded for being in work. The proceed in that direction and we will have much more to personal allowance increase and the cut in fuel duty say about it when we have our spending review. plans will help the people whom my hon. Friend so ably represents in this Parliament. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): One in 10 Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): In cutting people of working age in Scotland is underemployed. the income tax of those earning more than £1 million a Does the Chancellor consider that that figure will increase year while cutting the incomes of those people in my or decrease in the next three years? constituency who do the right thing by getting up and going out everyday to try to find a job, is the Chancellor Mr Osborne: Of course our ambition is for employment not protecting the richest and asking the most vulnerable to increase. That is why we have made further changes to pay the most? to make our businesses more competitive, to help working people and to create a welfare system that encourages Mr Osborne: The richest have paid more income tax those who are in work. I hope she will support that. in every single year under this Government than in any one of the 13 years for which there was a Labour Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I Government and the shadow Chancellor was the country’s congratulate the Chancellor on the good news in his chief economic adviser. If the hon. Lady has a problem statement for micro-businesses and particularly on what with the reduction in the 50p rate to a 45p rate, perhaps he has done with fuel duty and extending the small she can tell me—her colleagues on the Front Bench business rate tax relief. That is wonderful, but I have a certainly will not—whether Labour would reverse that particular concern about rural communities. In the policy if it won the next election. detail, has he considered any further rural rebate for fuel duty in addition to the freeze he has already introduced? James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): I welcome the Chancellor’s announcement on capital Mr Osborne: I am not sure that this is necessarily the spending, particularly the new PF2—private finance 2— answer my hon. Friend wants, but unfortunately the scheme he announced today. Does he agree that that European Union constrains the rural fuel rebates we scheme would be ideal for the new hospital in Sandwell, can give to very remote island areas. That is why we which has been identified by the Treasury today as a have been able to introduce rebates in some of the priority project for that scheme and will greatly benefit Scottish islands and in the Isles of Scilly, but not in people in Sandwell and across the black country? more remote parts of rural England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We are pressing the Commission Mr Osborne: We have identified the hospital in Sandwell to see whether we can extend the definition of remote as a prime candidate for the new PF2. I know that it will rural areas so that remote parts of the south-west, for help improve facilities for the many people my hon. example, can benefit. Friend represents. It is a very good project and I hope that we will be able to proceed with it. Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): In the interests of transparency when considering available Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The Chancellor did public finances in the west midlands, is the Chancellor not mention the other banks he has created—food aware of the recent BBC investigation into the fate of banks. Is he not deeply ashamed that under his policies £107 billion of assets of the former Advantage West working people are dependent on food handouts to feed Midlands? I know that he was not a fan of regional themselves and their families? 911 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 912

Mr Osborne: As I have said, we have increased the Mr Osborne: We inherited a desperately difficult personal allowance to increase the income going to economic situation, where the economy had contracted working families. Of course, these are difficult economic by 6%. The hon. Lady talks about GDP forecasts. The times. We are having to take difficult decisions but they Labour Government presided over a 6% contraction in are decisions that support those who want to work hard the economy. We are dealing with those problems. As I and get on. say, she and her colleagues would have more force if they could answer two questions. Will they reverse the Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Hard-working 50p tax cut? They will not say that. Will they vote strivers in Weaver Vale will welcome my right hon. against the welfare uprating Bill? Once they give us Friend’s announcement that their personal tax allowance answers to those two questions, perhaps we will start will increase to £9,440. Can he remind the House of the listening to what they have to say. 10p tax fiasco that hit the poorest hardest? Does he Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I warmly welcome agree that it is those on the Government Benches who the 25% increase in the budget for UK Trade and always make it pay to work? Industry and the £1.5 billion uplift for export finance facilities, which is much needed by businesses trying to Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend puts it extremely powerfully fill orders from abroad. My right hon. Friend also on behalf of his Cheshire constituents. We remember commended the Heseltine review and said that he would the income tax decisions of the previous Government—the respond more fully in the new year. When he does abolition of the 10p tax rate that hit the poorest. For that, may I draw his attention to Lord Heseltine’s 13 years, as I said, the rich were paying less in income recommendations that we increase tactics to improve tax than they are paying in any one year of this foreign direct investment by targeting the leading Government. multinational investors more fully and more widely throughout Government? Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Co-op): May I take the Chancellor back to his statement Mr Osborne: I know my hon. Friend speaks with in 2010, when he said that he wanted to see the richest great knowledge on these subjects and she chairs the paying most and the vulnerable protected? To press the all-party group on trade and investment. We have provided point raised by many of my hon. Friends, why is he a 25% increase in UKTI’s budget. We are seeking to persisting with the tax cut for millionaires when thousands strengthen the capacity of overseas chambers. It is not of people across Wales are increasingly relying on food just about exports from this country; it is also about banks, such as the one I visited this weekend? attracting investment into this country, and we want Britain to remain the No. 1 destination for foreign Mr Osborne: We have had to take difficult decisions. direct investment in Europe. We have asked the rich to pay more—new stamp duty rates. We have had to take difficult decisions today on Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): The reality of pensions tax relief for the largest pension pots. We have this Chancellor’s period in office is that poverty is done all those things. We have also had to take difficult rising, growth is falling and debt is increasing. Why decisions on welfare. If the hon. Gentleman objects to does he not just admit that his ideologically-driven tea those things, perhaps he can tell us whether he will vote party experiment has been a complete and utter failure? against the welfare uprating Bill. Mr Osborne: I suggest the hon. Gentleman wakes up Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): In Nuneaton and smells the coffee of the situation that we inherited. since May 2010 unemployment is down, youth We inherited a country that had just been through the unemployment is down, employment is up and we have biggest recession and banking crisis in modern history. seen a 22% increase in business start-ups in the past We have dealt with the question about Britain’s credibility quarter alone. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we and its ability to pay its way in the world. The deficit has cannot be complacent and we need to do more, but that gone down, 1.2 million jobs have been created and he the autumn statement today will show that we are on should give us some credit for cleaning up the mess that the right track? his party created. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The people Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is right that we are on of east Yorkshire and north Lincolnshire will welcome the right track. We are making progress. To turn back the decision to scrap the 13p per gallon planned rise in would be a complete disaster. I congratulate him on fuel. On the £120 million for flood defences, will my speaking on behalf of the businesses that he represents. right hon. Friend ensure that rural communities can He has asked me what we can do on capital allowances benefit from that, as well as the cities? for plant and machinery and on business rates for small businesses. I hope he can see in the announcements that Mr Osborne: I can absolutely confirm that. We are we made today that we have been listening to him and doing everything we can to support businesses in my to the people in his constituency. hon. Friend’s area and to make sure that all parts of the country benefit from the infrastructure investment that Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) we are making. Having been up to his part of the world, (Lab): Can the Chancellor confirm not only that growth I know that we are making those investments and they has been downgraded yet again and the welfare bill is are bringing real benefits to the area that he represents. rising, but that child poverty and the number of working families living in poverty is increasing? This is happening Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): at the same time as millionaires are getting their tax Can the Chancellor explain to the 1,200 people in and cuts. Is this fair? Are we really all in it together? around Hull who are facing private sector job losses 913 Autumn Statement5 DECEMBER 2012 Autumn Statement 914 announced in the preceding four weeks exactly what is Yorkshire, but north Lincolnshire, which my hon. Friend in the autumn statement in terms of jobs and growth represents, and I know that the enterprise zones have for them? some exciting ideas. There is, as I say, additional money in the Book which I did not mention in my statement, Mr Osborne: Of course we regret any decision made but it is there for additional infrastructure into the by any company to reduce jobs, but we are creating jobs enterprise zones, and I will take a close look at the bid in the economy. In Humberside we have committed to that he makes on behalf of his constituents in relation new enterprise zones. We have reduced the tolls on the to the local enterprise zone. Humber bridge. We have introduced today new tax allowances from January next year to help small businesses Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Job creation in the hon. Lady’s area to invest. These will all help is vital in order to reduce public spending and increase create jobs, and I hope the people she represents will the tax take. The words the Chancellor used in his also welcome the increase in the personal allowance, statement were very interesting. He said specifically that which will see a reduction in their income tax bill, and when counting his 1 million private sector jobs he the decision not to go ahead with the Labour party’s 3p started from the beginning of 2010. Half of those jobs fuel duty rise. were created in the first year of that period and arose Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): My constituents from the Labour Government’s financial stimulus, so in Gloucester will appreciate the fact that the Chancellor’s the rate of growth has in fact been decreasing, not statement increases take-home pay for all workers, gets increasing. Does he not agree? us off the fuel duty escalator, clamps down on multinational tax avoidance and strongly supports investment in Mr Osborne: First, unemployment had gone up under manufacturing, which is vital for growth and jobs in our the Labour Government and they, like all Labour city and county. Can my right hon. Friend say whether Governments in history, left office with unemployment his announcement on funding and reforms for more higher than when they came into office. Secondly, if the houses includes the Gloucester proposal for social housing hon. Lady looks at the employment forecasts she will regeneration, which was well received by the Homes see that, as I was saying to her hon. Friend the Member and Communities Agency and the Department for for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Communities and Local Government? Blenkinsop), 1 million jobs are forecast to be created over the coming period. As I have said, we are in a Mr Osborne: I will get back to my hon. Friend about tough economic situation—I am not trying to disguise the specific point about the bid for new housing in that from the House today—but I think that the decisions Gloucester. More broadly, we are investing more capital we have taken to help businesses and working people in housing development. We are also standing alongside will be warmly welcomed. families trying to buy their first home with our Firstbuy shared equity scheme, and we are also providing guarantees Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): The improvements to registered social landlords not only to build social to the A1 and the freezing of fuel duty, which was raised housing, but to build housing for the private rented 10 times under the previous Labour Government, are sector. So in all sorts of ways we are helping the people warmly welcomed by Government Members. However, of Gloucester, and I will look specifically at what more may I urge the Chancellor to consider the call of the we can do to help. Chair of the Treasury Committee for local community Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East banking to kick-start lending to small and medium-sized Cleveland) (Lab): The corporation tax take, VAT take, enterprises and local banking in local areas? income tax take and growth are all lower than the OBR predicted in March. The Chancellor is forecast to accrue Mr Osborne: I welcome what my hon. Friend says an increase in national debt in five years greater than about the dualling of the A1 up to Newcastle—I hope Labour accrued in 13 years. Moreover, from now till that in future we can do that as far as the Scottish 2013 the International Labour Organisation unemployment border—and his comment on fuel duty. He has spoken rate increases by 0.2%, as is stated on page 86, table B.1, to me personally about what more we can do to get so how are more people predicted to get jobs when the community banking. There are still many issues to deal OBR says completely the opposite? with in our banking system. We have to make it more competitive and encourage more entrants, and community Mr Osborne: I would advise the hon. Gentleman to banks can be part of the solution. look at that table on employment. It shows employment going up by 1 million. Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Bombardier Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Along with the recently secured the largest order in its history, with initiatives that the Chancellor mentioned a few moments the result that its site in my constituency is now secure ago to boost the Humberside economy, I particularly for the future, which is a welcome investment and also welcome confirmation that the A160 upgrade into secures the local supply chain, so I welcome the Immingham docks is going ahead. It provides access to Chancellor’s intention to support the aerospace the enterprise zone that he mentioned. I note that there industry as well as his announcements on fuel duty, is an additional £60 million available to enterprise zones. which will have a direct impact on those businesses. Will he look sympathetically on applications from the Another constraint on economic growth in Northern Humber enterprise zone? Ireland is air passenger duty, as I have said frequently. Will the Chancellor at least commit to conducting a Mr Osborne: I will certainly look at the application if proper study of the impact of APD on growth in one is put forward by the Humber enterprise zone. I business and tourism, so that an informed decision on know that this benefits people across not only east the matter can be taken? 915 Autumn Statement 5 DECEMBER 2012 916

Mr Osborne: I, too, welcome the investment that Internships (Advertising and Regulation) Bombardier has made in Belfast and hope that some of Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order my announcements today on help for the aerospace No. 23) industry, particularly the supply chain for advanced manufacturing, will benefit the hon. Lady’s constituents. 3.15 pm On APD, we acted swiftly to deal with the specific issue of the transatlantic flight from Belfast to the United Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I beg to States, and I am glad that we were able, with the move, Northern Ireland Executive, to come to a satisfactory That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit the advertising arrangement on that. More broadly, the point she makes of long-term unpaid internships; to regulate conditions of employment about APD has been made by others. We have had to for paid internships; and for connected purposes. make some difficult decisions, and sticking with the More than 1 million young people in our country are APD rates we inherited from the previous Labour desperately looking for work, seeking that elusive first Government was one of them, although we were able, step on the career ladder that they hope will lead to a in the very early years of this Government, to do better future. In the current economic climate, it is all something to ameliorate that by delaying one of the too easy for unscrupulous employers to exploit the increases. hopes and dreams of young people by offering long-term, unpaid internships that require them to work for free. Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): I congratulate my Let us take Stacy as an example. She was offered an right hon. Friend on his statement and thank him for internship with a financial services company in central the consideration he has given to our report on empty London. Even though it was unpaid, she, like thousands property rates. The move to give new build commercial of other young people, thought that it would lead to a properties an exemption from paying empty property future career. She worked for four months without pay rates will be a welcome boost to the economy and will and ended up with over £5,000 in credit card and be much welcomed in the industry, but I ask him to payday loan debts just so she could afford the travel keep the wider issue of empty property rates on existing from her home into the city. She was forced to leave the units under consideration. company when she had no more money. Far from thanking her for her contribution, the company was Mr Osborne: As I said in my statement, the report outraged that she had left and gave her a poor reference. produced by my hon. Friend and some of his colleagues Long-term, unpaid internships are a modern-day showed powerfully the impact that the empty property scandal, and they are rife in the very areas where so rates that the previous Government introduced have many young people are desperate to get a foothold. The had, hitting development in our towns and cities. It is worst offenders are employers in media, fashion, finance an expensive measure to get rid of, which is why we have and, until recently—I am ashamed to say—in politics. been unable to get rid of it all today, but we have Part of the reason why unpaid internships are so unfair listened to him and his colleagues. There was the idea of is that they are disproportionately located in London, providing a grace period for new commercial development, one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in. and we are now introducing that 18-month grace period. That immediately freezes out large sections of the country, I congratulate him on making the case for it so powerfully. and I know that very few people from Salford could afford to relocate to London to work full time without Mr Speaker: I call Mr Dan Byles. getting paid. The National Union of Journalists, in its submission Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): Thank you, to the Low Pay Commission, called unpaid internships Mr Speaker—I am now in a calm frame of mind. The “the scourge of the industry”, average working wage in my constituency of North with the problem being particularly bad on magazines. I Warwickshire and Bedworth is less than the national commend the NUJ for bringing legal action in the average wage. What does the Chancellor suggest I tell employment tribunal to obtain backdated national my constituents when they ask me, in bewilderment, minimum wage payments for unpaid interns. Alan Milburn’s how the Labour party can vote against a welfare cap report on fair access to professional careers, which was that will prevent people on benefits taking home a published in May this year, identified journalism as larger disposable income than my constituents who are “one of the most socially exclusive of professions” in work? and noted that over half of senior journalists are now educated privately. The report said that Mr Osborne: I think that my hon. Friend’s constituents “all too often, unpaid internships are a key entry route into and many people in the country will be completely journalism and the media industry more generally.” bewildered that Labour opposes a cap on benefits that He found: simply means that people who are out of work will not get more than the average family gets from being in “Unpaid internships clearly disadvantage those from less affluent backgrounds who cannot afford to work for free for any length of work. It means that in two and a half years’ time or time. They are a barrier to fair access and indeed, to better social thereabouts, his constituents will have a choice between mobility”. continuing to return my hon. Friend to Parliament to Of course, there are good employers in all those ensure that their money is well spent and the unlimited sectors who do pay their interns, such as the magazines benefits that his Labour opponent will be offering. Cosmopolitan and Elle, but too many persist in taking advantage of young people who are desperate to work. Mr Speaker: I thank the Chancellor and all 90 Back The problem is also widespread in the fashion industry. Benchers who questioned him. We are blessed. Carmela spent five months working for a fashion house, sewing dresses that would sell for over £500 each. She 917 Internships (Advertising and 5 DECEMBER 2012 Internships (Advertising and 918 Regulation) Regulation) was paid nothing at all for her work. She, too, was In France, work experience is limited to eight weeks, forced to give up the internship because she simply after which there is a trigger whereby a person automatically could not afford to work for free. I cannot claim the becomes an intern and is paid accordingly. It would be following phrase as my own, but it is one of the best I very helpful if we could consider a similar model in this have heard about the fashion industry. It was from a country. To me, eight weeks seems a little too long, but young woman who worked long hours for no pay and perhaps after four or six weeks there should be an for months on end. She said: automatic trigger so that people start to get paid properly “The Devil wears Prada, and the Devil pays nada.” as interns. All of us in this House know that unpaid internships Of course, many companies do offer brilliant paid have been offered on a regular basis by all political internship programmes, including Ernst and Young, parties, taking advantage of the drive and commitment BP, law firm Clifford Chance, and CH2M Hill, which of young people who want to work here at Westminster built the Olympic Park and is now setting up a paid and are desperate to get a foot in the door. The reality is internship scheme to attract young people into engineering. that only those who can afford to work for free and who Small campaign charities such as People and Plants are have housing in London can take up those opportunities, also able to pay their interns. We should celebrate them which effectively excludes 95% of young people—they all and try to bring everyone else up to their standards. come from all our constituencies up and down the country—from ever having that chance to get involved Volunteering is important, but we should distinguish in politics. it from unpaid internships. Volunteers give up their own time and do so on their own terms—they are not With the support of all three party leaders and incredible required to carry out set duties at set hours—but obviously, support from you, Mr Speaker, I have, together with the volunteering is a great way to get experience and contribute hon. Members for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) to the local community. and for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), tried to address that in Parliament by creating the Concern has been expressed that making internships Speaker’s parliamentary placements scheme. Our paid would drive unpaid internships underground or, programme, which is run in partnership with the worse still, stifle opportunities. However, we have to ask brilliant Social Mobility Foundation, gives people from ourselves this: are we comfortable with opportunities disadvantaged backgrounds the opportunity to come that mean that people do not get paid for their work, here and work. Every one of them is paid more than the and that are restricted to those who can afford to work minimum wage and more than the living wage. They are for free? I personally am not. I believe that unpaid given some support with housing and provided with a internships are often exploitative, and are wrong. By structured scheme. They work for MPs for four days a outlawing the advertising of unpaid internships, the week, and on a Friday they have a personal development Government would send a clear message that unpaid programme that is helping them to realise their skills internships shut down more opportunities for people and talents. It is a good start, but much more needs to than they open up, that the practice is counter-productive be done. I am pleased to say that with the brilliant work to social mobility, and that the principle of asking being carried out by Gus Baker and his colleagues at people to live and work for free is wrong. Interns Aware, Interns Anonymous and Internocracy, This issue is affecting many people’s lives. I will leave as well as the National Union of Students, we now have the House with a final story about John. John joined a mass of young people who are an unstoppable force, French Connection’s e-commerce team as an unpaid and I think we really will start to get change. intern. After a couple of weeks, there were changes in The Bill proposes that advertising for unpaid internships the workplace and John was given more responsibilities. should be unlawful. It seems like a small measure, but I He was asked if he wanted to take this work on, and he believe that it would make a big difference. If people are said no, but was still given it. It was terribly confusing required to attend work for set hours and carry out for someone who had no experience in a mainstream, specific duties, they are legally a worker under the paid role. Not only did John feel out of his depth but he national minimum wage legislation and entitled to be felt, and clearly was, exploited. John says that he felt he paid as such. This is the clear legal advice of the was drafted in to do a job because there was no one else Department for Business, Innovation and Skills’ own to do it and he was saving the company money. For his lawyers. It is therefore completely nonsensical that it sake, and for the sake of thousands of young people remains lawful for employers to advertise positions who are in similar circumstances today, whose hopes which are in themselves unlawful. The Bill would send a and dreams have often been dashed because they cannot very clear message to employers that such adverts are do an unpaid internship, we must act quickly to ensure unlawful, and it would accelerate the cultural change we that they are treated with respect and given a decent need so that all employers adopt the standards of the start to their working lives. best by paying their interns at least the national minimum Question put and agreed to. wage. Some people will say that such a measure might Ordered, squeeze out the essential work experience placements That Hazel Blears, Barbara Keeley, David Miliband, that we all want to encourage so that young people get a Mr Iain Wright, Ms Gisela Stuart, Meg Hillier, Fiona taste of different kinds of work to help them decide on Mactaggart, Julie Elliott, Dr Julian Huppert, Mike their future careers. Not at all: there is a world of Crockart and Eric Ollerenshaw present the Bill. difference between a four-week work experience placement, Hazel Blears accordingly presented the Bill. which can be tremendously valuable, and an advert which, I am ashamed to say, a Member of Parliament Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on issued recently for a 12-month constituency case worker— Friday 1 February 2013 and to be printed (Bill 102). unpaid! 919 5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 920 (Allocation of Time) Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill (2) Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall be brought to a conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) (Allocation of Time) one hour after their commencement; and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph (1) shall thereupon be resumed. 3.26 pm 9.–(1) This paragraph applies for the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph 8. The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green): I beg to move, (2) The Speaker shall first put forthwith any Question already proposed from the Chair. That the following provisions shall apply to the proceedings on (3) If that Question is for the amendment of a Lords Amendment the Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill— the Speaker shall then put forthwith— Timetable (a) a single Question on any further Amendments to the Lords 1.–(1) Proceedings on Second Reading, in Committee, on Amendment moved by a Minister of the Crown, and consideration and on Third Reading shall be completed at this (b) the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the day’s sitting. Crown that this House agrees or disagrees to the Lords Amendment (2) Proceedings on Second Reading shall be brought to a or (as the case may be) to the Lords Amendment as amended. conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) four hours after (4) The Speaker shall then put forthwith— the commencement of proceedings on this Motion. (a) a single Question on any Amendments moved by a Minister (3) Proceedings in Committee, on consideration and on Third of the Crown to a Lords Amendment, and Reading shall be brought to a conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) six hours after the commencement of proceedings on (b) the Question on any Motion made by a Minister of the this Motion. Crown that this House agrees or disagrees to the Lords Amendment Timing of proceedings and Questions to be put or (as the case may be) to the Lords Amendment as amended. (5) The Speaker shall then put forthwith the Question on any 2. When the Bill has been read a second time— Motion made by a Minister of the Crown that this House (a) it shall, despite Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of Bills disagrees to a Lords Amendment. not subject to a programme order), stand committed to a Committee (6) The Speaker shall then put forthwith the Question that this of the whole House without any Question being put; House agrees to all the remaining Lords Amendments. (b) proceedings on the Bill shall stand postponed while the (7) As soon as the House has— Question is put, in accordance with paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 52 (Money resolutions and ways and means resolutions (a) agreed or disagreed to a Lords Amendment; or in connection with bills), on any financial resolution relating to (b) disposed of an Amendment relevant to a Lords Amendment the Bill; which has been disagreed to, (c) on the conclusion of proceedings on any financial resolution the Speaker shall put forthwith a single Question on any relating to the Bill, proceedings on the Bill shall be resumed and Amendments moved by a Minister of the Crown and relevant to the Speaker shall leave the Chair whether or not notice of an the Lords Amendment. Instruction has been given. Subsequent stages 3.–(1) On the conclusion of proceedings in Committee, the 10.–(1) Any further Message from the Lords on the Bill may be Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without putting any considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any Question. proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended (2) If the Bill is reported with amendments, the House shall accordingly. proceed to consider the Bill as amended without any Question (2) Proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall being put. (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion 4. For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion one hour after their commencement; and any proceedings suspended in accordance with paragraph 1, the Chairman or Speaker shall under sub-paragraph (1) shall thereupon be resumed. forthwith put the following Questions (but no others) in the same 11.–(1) This paragraph applies for the purpose of bringing any order as they would fall to be put if this Order did not apply— proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph 10. (a) any Question already proposed from the Chair; (2) The Speaker shall first put forthwith any Question which (b) any Question necessary to bring to a decision a Question so has been proposed from the Chair. proposed; (3) The Speaker shall then put forthwith the Question on any (c) the Question on any amendment moved or Motion made Motion made by a Minister of the Crown which is related to the by a Minister of the Crown; Question already proposed from the Chair. (d) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the (4) The Speaker shall then put forthwith the Question on any business to be concluded. Motion made by a Minister of the Crown on or relevant to any of 5. On an Motion so made for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the remaining items in the Lords Message. the Chairman or Speaker shall put only the Question that the (5) The Speaker shall then put forthwith the Question that this Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill. House agrees with the Lords in all the remaining Lords Proposals. 6. If two or more Questions would fall to be put under Reasons Committee paragraph 4(c) on successive amendments moved or Motions 12.–(1) The Speaker shall put forthwith the Question on any made by a Minister of the Crown, the Chairman or Speaker shall Motion made by a Minister of the Crown for the appointment, instead put a single Question in relation to those amendments or nomination and quorum of a Committee to draw up Reasons and Motions. the appointment of its Chair. 7. If two or more Questions would fall to be put under (2) A Committee appointed to draw up Reasons shall report paragraph 4(d) in relation to successive provisions of the Bill, the before the conclusion of the sitting at which it is appointed. Chairman shall instead put a single Question in relation to those provisions, except that the Question shall be put separately on any (3) Proceedings in the Committee shall (so far as not previously Clause of or Schedule to the Bill which a Minister of the Crown concluded) be brought to a conclusion 30 minutes after their has signified an intention to leave out. commencement. Consideration of Lords Amendments (4) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion 8.–(1) Any Lords Amendments to the Bill may be considered in accordance with sub-paragraph (3), the Chair shall— forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings (a) first put forthwith any Question which has been proposed interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly. from the Chair, and 921 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 922 (Allocation of Time) (Allocation of Time) (b) then put forthwith successively Questions on motions which Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is unusual may be made by a Minister of the Crown for assigning a Reason to put a Bill through this place in a day, and the for disagreeing with the Lords in any of their Amendments. procedure should be used only rarely. Given the lack of (5) The proceedings of the Committee shall be reported without Government business in the past few weeks, I wonder any further Question being put. why we did not have the Second Reading debate sooner Miscellaneous so that we could proceed with the later stages today. 13.–Paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business) What is the reason for the delay between the statement shall apply so far as necessary for the purposes of this Order. and getting to this point? 14.–(1) The proceedings on any Motion made by a Minister of the Crown for varying or supplementing the provisions of this Damian Green: The statement was made four or five Order shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a weeks ago. The IPCC had to look at the matter, and we conclusion one hour after their commencement. have had discussions with it about the extra powers that (2) Paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business) it thought it needed, which the Bill very narrowly addresses. shall apply to those proceedings. I share what I divine to be my hon. Friend’s instincts 15. Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not about emergency fast-track legislation. When it is needed, apply in relation to any proceedings to which this Order applies. as it occasionally is, it should be drafted as narrowly as 16.–(1) No Motion shall be made, except by a Minister of the possible. As for the timetable, we have moved as fast as Crown, to alter the order in which any proceedings on the Bill are possible, consonant with consulting the many people taken or to recommit the Bill. involved, inside this House and outside, so that we (2) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith. could get to the point where today we can have a 17.–(1) No dilatory Motion shall be made in relation to proceedings Second Reading debate. We will have four hours to to which this Order applies except by a Minister of the Crown. consider the motion itself and for Second Reading. The (2) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith. motion then provides for a further two hours for Committee stage, to take place on the Floor of the House, and for 18. The Speaker may not arrange for a debate to be held in accordance with Standing Order No. 24 (Emergency debates) on the remaining stages. We therefore have a total of up to a day on which the Bill has been set down to be taken as an Order six hours to consider the Bill today. I welcome the of the Day before the conclusion of any proceedings to which this support from those on the Opposition Front Bench for Order applies. expediting the Bill; similarly, I welcome the support of 19.–(1) This paragraph applies if the House is adjourned, or the Home Affairs Committee, as set out in its report, the sitting is suspended, before the conclusion of any proceedings which was published this morning. I hope that the to which this Order applies. House as a whole will understand the need for fast-tracking (2) No notice shall be required of a Motion made at the next the Bill and will support the motion. sitting by a Minister of the Crown for varying or supplementing the provisions of this Order. 3.28 pm 20. Proceedings to which this Order applies shall not be Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I am grateful to the interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of Minister for outlining the motion. My right hon. Friends the House. the Members for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford 21.–(1) Any private business which has been set down for (Yvette Cooper), for Leigh (Andy Burnham), for Garston consideration at 7.00 pm, 4.00 pm or 2.00 pm (as the case may be) on a day on which the Bill has been set down to be taken as an and Halewood (Maria Eagle) and I have had discussions Order of the Day shall, instead of being considered as provided outside the Chamber with the Minister about the Bill’s by Standing Orders, be considered at the conclusion of the contents, and we support the motion. We want to get proceedings on the Bill on that day. the Bill on to the statute book as quickly as possible, (2) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply and the Opposition will not oppose the motion. to the private business for a period of three hours from the conclusion of the proceedings on the Bill or, if those proceedings 3.29 pm are concluded before the moment of interruption, for a period equal to the time elapsing between 7.00 pm, 4.00 pm or 2.00 pm Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I have no (as the case may be) and the conclusion of those proceedings. intention of opposing the motion, but the right hon. It may assist the House if I say a few words about the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), who spoke on behalf allocation of time motion without, of course, debating of the Opposition, has made my point for me somewhat. the substance of the Bill. Clearly, the motion goes to the Obviously, discussions between the two Whips Offices heart of our case for a fast-track Bill. have led to this decision. It may well be that this is such an important issue that everything has to be done in one As hon. Members will recall, in the debate on 22 October day. However, as a general rule, although we can allocate my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary gave a four hours for Second Reading and two hours for commitment to ensure that the Independent Police Committee, one of the reasons we have safeguards in Complaints Commission had the powers that it needs our Standing Orders is that arguments developed on to undertake its investigations into Hillsborough thoroughly Second Reading may be reflected on and amendments and exhaustively. The bereaved families and the survivors can then be tabled for the Committee stage. I am not have waited 23 years for the truth; they should not have saying that this is not one of those Bills that need to be to wait years more for justice. The IPCC needs to get on rushed through in a day—I do not know enough about with these investigations as fast as possible, and to do it, although it certainly relates to an important issue. that it needs these additional powers by early in the new year. I fully recognise that today’s timetable is a tight Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): The hon. one. None the less, given the very specific issues that the Gentleman is, in general terms, making a good point, House is being asked to consider, I am satisfied that the but he needs to reflect on the fact that this is a short Bill House, and in due course the other place, will have and, as the Minister has said, that it is focused in its sufficient time to scrutinise the Bill properly. intent. 923 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 5 DECEMBER 2012 924 (Allocation of Time) Mr Bone: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill intervention and I am sure that he is correct. What I am [Relevant document: The Tenth Report from the Home taking this small opportunity to do is to encourage the Affairs Committee on Powers to investigate the Hillsborough Government not to follow this practice with other Bills. disaster:interim Report on the Independent Police Complaints A House business committee would save us from this Commission, HC 793.] problem, because all decisions would then be made transparently rather than as a result of discussions Second Reading behind the scenes, which is obviously what happened in this case. 3.34 pm 3.31 pm The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I, too, rise to support Second time. the Government’s motion. The Minister consulted me and the Home Affairs Committee, which, for the The events of 15 April 1989 were a tragedy. Ninety-six convenience of the House, published a report this innocent men, women, and children lost their lives. morning—it is available from the Vote Office—that More than 700 people were injured, many seriously. The deals with the Bill and goes a little wider, because we impact of those events on all those who watched the took evidence from the Hillsborough families as well. tragedy unfold, desperate to help, on the survivors, and We have made a number of recommendations that go on the families and friends of the 96 victims, is felt to slightly beyond the Bill itself and hope that the Government this day and must never be forgotten. will take them into consideration. We have today an opportunity to address what my It is important that we get on with this. One of the right hon. Friend the Prime Minister called the “double features of the evidence given by Lord Falconer and the injustice” that has been suffered, first through the tragedy families’ representatives was their desire to get a move itself, and then through 23 years of lies and obstruction. on after their 23-year campaign. I thank the Minister That is why we have brought forward this fast-track for the courtesy with which he has conducted the legislation. negotiations with the Committee, for consulting us and With the publication of the report of the Hillsborough for giving us an opportunity to submit our views, which, independent panel on 12 September, the truth about the as I have said, are available from the Vote Office. events of that day is finally known. I pay tribute again to the Right Rev. James Jones, the Bishop of Liverpool, Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): It is also fair and all the panel members for their dedicated and to say that the people who have been involved with tireless work in producing the report. It has drawn a line Hillsborough have been aware of this Bill and have had under the lies, rumour, innuendo and conjecture that the opportunity to make suggestions. An amendment have surrounded the disaster for the past 23 years. has been tabled for the Committee stage as a result of I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the the all-party group on the Hillsborough disaster having right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) for his time to discuss the issue. contribution in getting us to this stage. I also pay tribute to the hon. Members for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I Rotheram), for Halton (Derek Twigg) and for Garston think we will have plenty of time to discuss this three-clause and Halewood (Maria Eagle), who have worked tirelessly Bill. Obviously, as the hon. Member for Wellingborough to get to the truth. The whole House is grateful to them. (Mr Bone) has said—he has developed a great expertise I am also grateful to the shadow Home Secretary, the in House matters—we do not want today’s process to be right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and the norm. We want it to be exceptional, the Government Castleford (Yvette Cooper), and the Chairman of the have said that it is exceptional, and the families, the Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Opposition and the Home Affairs Committee believe Leicester East (Keith Vaz), for the constructive discussions that it is exceptional. I think it is pretty rare to get such that they have had with me and my right hon. Friend agreement, but we agree on the Bill and hope that it will the Home Secretary, which have enabled us to introduce go through quickly. the Bill in a spirit of co-operation across the whole House. 3.33 pm I also pay tribute, not least, to the families of the Damian Green: I am grateful for the remarks that victims. Without their unwavering commitment, we would have been made. If it is of any reassurance to my hon. simply not have reached this important point in the Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), I search for justice. I believe that without their dedication, share his instincts, but I think that everyone understands there would have been no independent panel, no report the importance of speeding up this Bill and the fact into the Hillsborough disaster, no parliamentary debates that, within the constraints of a tight timetable, the and no possibility of exposing the truth and obtaining Government have done their best to consult everyone justice. who should be consulted, both inside and outside the House. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): May I again put on Question put and agreed to. the record the unanimous support of the Select Committee for the Bill? Aspects of our 10th report, which we published this morning, go beyond the scope of clauses 1 and 2. Will the Minister assure the House that he will look at those other points, for example on the creation of a lead investigator, the need for co-ordination by the 925 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 926

Home Secretary and the need for her to publish a Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): I welcome timetable? Even though those points are not relevant to the Government’s proposals, but I wonder whether the the Bill, they are very relevant to the future conduct of right hon. Gentleman, like me, is surprised that page 10 the investigation. of the Bill research paper states that the IPCC cannot already compel serving police officers simply to attend Damian Green: I am grateful to the Select Committee an interview in connection with any ongoing investigation. for producing the report for this debate and for taking Does he believe that there should be clear sanctions parts of it out of its important wider investigation into against those who refuse to do that? the Independent Police Complaints Commission. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that all the points that he and Damian Green: The hon. Gentleman asked two questions. the Select Committee have made are under consideration. First, he asked whether I was surprised that the power Clearly, it is in everyone’s interest that the various did not already exist. To some extent, yes I am. Obviously, investigations proceed as fast as possible, consonant the IPCC was set up under the Police Reform Act 2002 with the fact that many of them are being carried out by and given powers then. Perhaps this is the first time that bodies that are rightly independent of Government. so much focus has been on it—indeed, it has caused the House to agree to emergency legislation to give the Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Will IPCC that particular power. the Minister say what the attitude is of the Police Secondly, I know that sanctions are of particular Federation and the Association of Chief Police Officers concern. As has been said, we will debate the matter in to the Bill? detail on an amendment to the relevant clause in Committee later. However, I preview my thoughts on that by pointing Damian Green: The Police Federation and the out that clear sanctions will be available to chief constables superintendents have written to express their reservations and forces to apply to those who refuse to obey what and I have written back to them. I obviously meet the will be an IPCC instruction, and later a requirement. Police Federation and the supers regularly. I am meeting They will be very powerful. the Police Federation next week and this matter will be on the agenda. I have not had a formal exchange with Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): The Minister ACPO, so it would be unfair for me to express its may recall that I wrote to him about retired officers, and collective view. I thank him for his response. Will he be clear about whether such former officers would be required to The findings of the independent panel’s report are attend any sort of interview? My understanding of the deeply distressing. The failure of the authorities to Home Affairs Committee report is that the Bill does not protect the fans, the attempts to blame them and the provide for that, and that could hinder the investigation. doubt cast on the original coroner’s inquest are particularly Will he make it clear whether there is a way of ensuring troubling findings. It should not have taken 23 years to that people are available to be interviewed? get to this point, but finally the report gets us to the stage of knowing the truth—a truth that is now accepted Damian Green: The case is different for retired officers by all. The report exposes many attempts that were because they are essentially members of the public. The made by the authorities—those charged with protecting police cannot compel a member of the public to attend the public and with uncovering the truth of the events—to an interview as a witness. If the police feel that it is change official records, obscure the truth and paint a necessary to interview someone, they have to arrest different picture of what happened. them if they are unwilling to help voluntarily. It would The truth is both shocking and essential, but it is not be strange to give the IPCC powers that the police do the end. As the Bishop of Liverpool has said, we now not have. Having said that, my expectation is that— need to move from truth to justice. It is that move that is inevitably, in this case—there will be many retired officers, at the centre of the Bill. As the Home Secretary set out simply because of the length of time since Hillsborough, to the House in the debate on 22 October, the Independent and that they may have useful evidence to give as Police Complaints Commission has announced an witnesses. I hope and expect that many will wish to help. investigation into the panel’s findings. That is an important step on the path to achieving justice for the victims of Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): It is 23 years the disaster. since Hillsborough and more than 20 years since most The IPCC will investigate the conduct of the officers of the incidents that concern us occurred. Has the at Hillsborough on that day, and those who were involved Minister any idea of how many officers from that time in the subsequent investigations. That means that it will are still serving, and how many have retired or moved investigate both misconduct and criminality, not only on? of any officers who are still serving in any police force in the UK, but of any officers who have since retired. Damian Green: The IPCC is still going through that Normally, the IPCC would pursue retired officers only information. The majority of officers may well have for matters relating to criminal behaviour. For criminal retired by now. This is a large undertaking and represents behaviour, the sanctions are clear: the officer, serving or the biggest single investigation that the IPCC has ever retired, will face criminal charges. For misconduct matters, done. It estimates that this will involve their investigating sanctions can bite only serving officers, so it is rare to more than 2,400 officers. That is the overall quantum—the undertake an investigation of retired officers for misconduct. actual division is not yet clear. Obviously, many officers However, in relation to Hillsborough, the IPCC has may have moved to other forces, and so on. made it clear that it will investigate retired officers for both criminal behaviour and misconduct because the Steve Rotheram: If the right hon. Gentleman will not public interest is compelling. put sanctions in the Bill, as seems likely, what confidence 927 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 928

[Steve Rotheram] more generally. Let me be clear to the House that those discussions are still taking place. The Home Affairs does he have that police forces will take the necessary Committee, to which I gave evidence last week, is coming disciplinary action against serving officers who refuse to the end of an inquiry into the IPCC. Naturally, the to help the IPCC? Government will want to study the Committee’s conclusions and recommendations before coming to a final view on Damian Green: I have very great confidence in that. any wider reforms to the IPCC. If there are other gaps There are two points to make in response to the hon. in the IPCC’s powers, we will plug them as soon as is Gentleman, the first of which is that similar sanctions practicable, but the Bill’s focus is on gaps in the commission’s under the conduct regulations are not in any other Bill, powers that it has identified as preventing it from so it would be anomalous suddenly to pluck out the undertaking a thorough and exhaustive investigation in sanction for this offence and put it in legislation. Secondly, Hillsborough without delay. and more importantly in practical terms, given the enormous and understandable public interest in the Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): One of the things that matter, the relevant chief officers will be extremely keen emerged clearly from the report was the role of South to ensure that they use their powers to take sanctions— Yorkshire police federation in putting out the “alternative” ultimately, officers who break the conduct regulations view of Hillsborough. I suspect I know the answer, but I in that way can be dismissed. The conversations I have want to be clear for the record—that someone cannot had with senior officers in recent days suggest that that argue they were acting in a representative capacity as a is the case. police federation representative in order to escape what I said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for is being sought under the Bill. In other words, the Bill’s City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) that the IPCC has provisions will apply to them even if they were acting as said that the investigation will be the biggest it has ever representatives of the police federation and its members, undertaken. The Government recognise the additional just as they would to police officers generally. burden that such a large investigation places on it. We have made it clear that we will ensure that the commission Damian Green: That is a question for the IPCC has both the powers and the resources it needs to investigation; it is not for Ministers to act as judges or conduct its investigations into Hillsborough. We take investigators. I know it is an important point, but it is that commitment seriously, which is why we have introduced better addressed to the IPCC. this fast-track Bill. Dr Huppert: The Minister says he is open to plugging John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): The IPCC has accepted gaps. He knows I have pressed him before about people two separate complaints, which may or may not overlap. occupying quasi-police roles. He wrote to me to say he One is in relation to Orgreave in 1984, and the other is is actively considering the issue. Will he indicate where in relation to the mystery over the investigation into that consideration has reached? Norman Bettison for an alleged major theft in August 1987. How will the IPCC be able to look at those two Damian Green: Short of reading again what I have investigations when it has such a heavy burden placed just said, that is what we are doing. The Select Committee, on it, particularly if it finds anything that in any way of which he is a distinguished member, is conducting an crosses over because of the individuals involved or investigation. It has not published its final report, but anything else? when it does so the Government will look at it and all the matters it raises seriously. Damian Green: I should restrict my remarks to Hillsborough, which is the purpose of the Bill; it is Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): deliberately narrowly drawn. It is for the IPCC to The Minister says that the IPCC has asked for two decide how to use its resources. The Bill gives a power to powers that are contained in the Bill. What conversations the IPCC to consider events previously investigated by has he had with the IPCC since the Bill was published its predecessor body, the Police Complaints Authority, about anything that is missing? He says he has had but it is for the IPCC to decide whether exceptional conversations with chief officers, specifically on sanctions. circumstances obtain to allow it do so. It is for the IPCC What conversations has he had with the IPCC about to decide whether to accept individual complaints. On sanctions? the hon. Gentleman’s other complaints, may I urge Members on both sides of the House not to indulge in Damian Green: I have had extensive conversations debate and speculation about individuals? I would not with the IPCC. I have seen its briefing to Members, want anything said on the Floor of the House to which led to the all-party group amendment. I have jeopardise any live investigations being conducted by specifically discussed sanctions with the IPCC. As I either the IPCC or the police. have said in more general terms, if there is a need to Since the publication of the panel’s report, my right widen the IPCC’s powers the Government will look at it hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I, and Home with an open mind and with a view to legislation, but it Office officials, have liaised closely with the IPCC, is sensible to await the Select Committee report before which has identified two additional powers it needs committing ourselves in any detail. It will be for the urgently in order to take forward its investigations into IPCC to investigate whether individuals involved on the Hillsborough. Those powers are contained in the Bill. day should face misconduct or criminal proceedings; we As many hon. Members will know, discussions with must ensure it has the powers it needs. The IPCC has the IPCC regarding its powers have been taking place been clear: that fully to investigate the terrible events of for some time. I am aware of the calls for wider reform 15 April 1989 it needs to hear the testimony of officers of the IPCC and how police complaints are handled involved on the day and in subsequent investigations. 929 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 930

Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I thank the providing the IPCC with the power, at this stage, to Minister for the correspondence he gave the all-party compel such retired officers to attend an interview as a group yesterday. He makes absolutely the right case on witness to events on the day or thereafter. Crucially, the the powers the IPCC needs for retired officers. Does he IPCC has not asked for that power in relation to the agree that, even if there are substantial legislative issues Hillsborough investigation, so the House does not need with retired officers, there is an absolutely clear moral to rush its consideration of the matter. case that retired officers should co-operate with the I know that many concerns have been expressed in IPCC? the House and outside that an officer who wants to avoid the repercussions of their actions can simply Damian Green: Yes, absolutely. I agree unequivocally, retire and avoid all sanction, but that is not the case. and it is a widely held view in the police service as well. I The IPCC can and will investigate any individual suspected know that the hon. Lady understands that retired police of criminal behaviour. It has the powers it needs to officers are just members of the public, however, and pursue these individuals and bring them to book. For therefore that giving the IPCC powers that the police do example, the IPCC already has the power to require an not have to compel witnesses to appear would be anomalous individual, serving or retired, who is suspected of and certainly not something we would want to do misconduct or criminal behaviour to attend an interview. through emergency fast-track legislation. Nevertheless, The IPCC can, in appropriate cases, refer a matter to she made the moral case very powerfully. the Director of Public Prosecutions where there is evidence The IPCC has existing powers to interview officers of criminality in relation to Hillsborough. and former officers who are themselves the subject of If an individual is subsequently convicted of a criminal an investigation for either a conduct or a criminal offence, in connection with their service as a police matter. The IPCC can already compel a suspect to officer, they could lose the majority of their pension. It attend an interview, but it needs to hear from officers will be for the relevant police and crime commissioner not just when they themselves are the subject of the to apply for this sanction. That is in addition to any investigation. It also needs to obtain evidence through penalty ordered by a court. Let me be clear: charges can interviews from those who might have seen the events be brought regardless of the employment status of the unfold, when they might have seen or heard of fellow individual concerned. officers amending statements and records—in other words, when they had witnessed key events in relation Steve Rotheram: Just for the record, will the Minister to Hillsborough. clarify something? Criminal behaviour could lead to As I have said, the IPCC can compel officers who are someone who is serving or who is retired facing a themselves under investigation to attend for interview. reduction in their pension. What happens if somebody Clause 1 extends this power so that serving police is found guilty not of criminal behaviour, but of officers and police staff can be compelled to attend for wrongdoing? Does the same sanction still apply? interview as witnesses as part of any investigation managed or independently undertaken by the IPCC. The power Damian Green: The sanctions apply if someone is will apply to officers in Home Office forces and other convicted of a criminal offence—I think that is the policing bodies, such as the British Transport police. I point the hon. Gentleman wishes to be clarified. If am clear that any serving officer who fails to comply someone has not been convicted of a criminal offence, with a request to attend such an interview should face matters affecting their pension would, not least, engage disciplinary measures. I emphasise that point once again. human rights legislation as well, so things would be That is consistent with the existing regime that applies much more difficult in those cases. when a person who is the subject of an investigation fails to attend for interview. For the sake of clarity, I will Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I understand repeat that such disciplinary matters may have serious the Minister’s point that if someone was guilty of a consequences, including— ultimately—dismissal. I have criminal offence, there would be consequences, but what set out that the power granted through clause 1 applies if someone who was serving and was investigated at the to individuals still serving with the police. The IPCC time had been found guilty of not carrying out their will not be able to compel a retired officer to attend an duties in an appropriate manner? That would have been interview as a witness through the use of this power. a disciplinary matter rather than a criminal matter. Is Several hon. members have asked why the provision there any sanction that could apply in those circumstances? should not apply to retired officers, but, as I said, they are in the same position as ordinary members of the Damian Green: I think we are getting into the realms public and so are no longer bound legally by the same of speculation about individuals. There is a clear distinction, responsibility as serving officers—although the hon. which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will recognise, Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) made between criminality and pure misconduct. It is clearly the point about moral responsibility. To grant the IPCC difficult to take disciplinary action against someone the power to require a retired officer to give evidence who is no longer an employee. At the most serious end, simply as a witness would provide the IPCC with greater many of the Hillsborough cases would potentially involve powers over the public than those available to the criminal sanctions, but too detailed speculation on these police. I think the House would rightly be uncomfortable matters might be unhelpful in the long run, not least to about that. the families and others seeking justice as well as truth. Let me again be clear, however: that does not mean that the IPCC cannot or will not investigate retired Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): officers for misconduct or criminality that they might Where there is a need to gather sufficient evidence to have committed. The IPCC will do that. We are just not decide whether a retired individual should be the subject 931 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 932

[Mrs Louise Ellman] test of “exceptional circumstances”. We are confident that that terminology ensures that investigations relating of an investigation for misconduct or criminality, does to Hillsborough can be reopened, while also setting a the Bill contain sufficient powers to enable that evidence high enough bar to prevent all PCA cases from being to be gathered? subject to another investigation.

Damian Green: The IPCC already has considerable Stephen Mosley: The IPCC states in its briefing note, powers to gather evidence, and it is not the only body to which the Minister has referred, that there should be involved in these investigations. My right hon. and powerful public interest involvement if it is to reopen a learned Friend the Attorney-General is looking at whether case. Does he agree that that should be the case? to apply to reopen the inquest, so a coroner may be Damian Green: I do. As I have said, it is for the IPCC involved as well. There will therefore be thorough to define “exceptional circumstances”, but clearly a investigation, and I would be surprised and disappointed powerful public interest would be one example. New if any avenue of inquiry fell through the cracks. As evidence would potentially be another. The circumstances much as can be done in the investigation is being done would be of that kind of order. In serious cases, a and will be done. powerful public interest or the production of new evidence The overall point I would like to reassure the House would enable the IPCC to say that the hurdle had been about is that where individuals are suspected of misconduct overcome. or criminality, the IPCC has the powers it needs, so clause 1 is solely about its powers relating to witnesses. Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): The power is essential if the IPCC investigation is to Does the Minister think that the Orgreave incident maintain public confidence and show that it has left no represents a case in which these powers might be useful? stone unturned—precisely the point that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) made. Information Damian Green: It is for the IPCC to decide such from witnesses will ensure that the IPCC investigation questions. The I stands for “Independent”, so it is not has a broad and thorough evidence base. for Ministers to stand here and tell the IPCC how to define its role or the powers that we give it. It is for us to As we have discussed, the sanctions carry real weight give it the powers, but it must define how best to use for serving officers. It would not be appropriate to them. So, if the hon. Lady will permit me, I will leave extend that to retired officers at this time. I should that to the IPCC to decide. It will decide such questions perhaps repeat that I fully expect the vast majority of in that case and in any other, and it is right that the retired officers called as witnesses to attend willingly. decision should sit with it. The importance of the matters being considered would cause any decent human being to provide whatever Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I apologise for assistance they could. However, we want to ensure that missing the start of the debate. The Minister has talked the IPCC has the clear statutory basis to be able, about reopening investigations that have already been independently and authoritatively, to require serving looked into by the Police Complaints Authority. Given officers who may have useful information for the purposes the number of officers who were persuaded to change of the investigation—because they witnessed events—to their statements and the scale of the cover-up, does he attend an interview. This power is needed urgently. The envisage that those issues will be covered by this provision IPCC is currently scoping its investigation, but it wants in the Bill? to make rapid progress, and I know that many people inside and outside the House want that as well. It plans Damian Green: The previous Government passed a to start calling witnesses early in the new year, so this perfectly sensible piece of legislation when setting up power needs to be available to it by then if the investigation the IPCC to prevent it from becoming a body that is not to be held up. would investigate every controversial police case that Clause 2 will allow the IPCC to investigate matters had been investigated by its predecessor body. The that were previously subject to investigation by its reason for including this provision in the Bill is that the predecessor, the Police Complaints Authority. This power IPCC has told the Government very firmly that it needs will be exercised only when the IPCC is satisfied that the the power to investigate a case that has already been exceptional circumstances of a case justify its use. That investigated by the PCA, for the reasons that I have is a high threshold. The IPCC has made it clear to me given relating to what happened on that day, and that it that, without this power, certain key events of the wants the high hurdle of “exceptional circumstances” Hillsborough disaster would be out of scope of its to be set. One element that would enable it to get over investigation, as they have previously been considered that high hurdle would be the arrival of significant new by the PCA. In particular, the PCA investigated the evidence in a public interest case. As the hon. Gentleman decisions to open exit gate C at the Leppings Lane end says, the fact that there is evidence of statements having of the Hillsborough ground and not to close the tunnel. been altered on an industrial scale certainly hits the Without this additional power, those matters would be target as far as new evidence is concerned. out of scope of the IPCC investigation, although it is John Mann: To clarify, if during the IPCC’s investigations clear that those two decisions were critical to the events into Hillsborough, it comes across other major events of the day. that might not be in the public domain at all yet might So this power is needed, but it needs to be tightly give some indication not of what happened at Hillsborough drawn. We need to avoid the prospect of opening up all or how it happened, but of why certain things happened, previous PCA investigations for review. That is why the will it be able to look into or pass on relevant information power provides the IPCC with the discretion to reopen at a future stage? In other words, can the IPCC look at previously investigated cases when the matter meets the things that are not directly related to Hillsborough but 933 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 934 that come out as reasons for actions that are, on the face Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. The of it, unrelated but could be worthy of investigation in Ayes were 288 and the Noes were 213, so the Question themselves? was agreed to. I must also announce the result of the deferred Damian Green: Again, it will be a matter for the Division on the draft Civil Legal Aid (Merits Criteria) IPCC to decide what to do with the evidence it finds. Regulations 2012. The Ayes were 287 and the Noes Inevitably, in this kind of investigation, the evidence it were 213, so the Question was agreed to. finds will be public. I think I can see where the hon. Gentleman is trying to go. As I say, the IPCC has 4.15 pm considerable powers of investigation and it could make things public that might enable someone to make a Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Let me begin by complaint, at which point it would have to decide thanking the Minister for the discussions in which he whether its powers were sufficient or whether its new has engaged outside the Chamber with Opposition powers conferred under this Bill could be triggered. The Front Benchers, namely my right hon. Friends the underlying point is that the IPCC is independent: it is Members for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford for the IPCC to decide what best to do with the evidence (Yvette Cooper) and for Leigh (Andy Burnham), and it finds during the course of its investigations. me. We have greatly appreciated those discussions, and, The Bill is narrow in scope, but crucial to the process like the Minister and, I am sure, many other Members, of achieving justice for the 96 individuals who died as a we welcome the Bill. result of the Hillsborough disaster, for those who were The events at Hillsborough 23 years ago were a injured and for the families and friends of all involved. tragedy of monumental proportions. The lack of justice for the families and friends of the 96 victims sits heavily Steve Rotheram: I thank the Minister for his patience on all Members of this place, and indeed on the great again, but I am certain that he must understand the city of Liverpool, which I am proud to say is the city of nervousness on Merseyside when this particular issue my birth. Constituents of mine died at Hillsborough. I goes through this House. I know, because I have spoken know of the problems that the families have experienced to him, that the Minister is fully aware of and appreciates since then, and the pain that it has brought them. The the current situation of Anne Williams, whose online campaign for justice has been long fought, over many e-petition reached over 100,000 signatures some weeks years. I recall our debate early in 1998, to which many ago. Will he assure us that none of the investigations Members who are in the Chamber today contributed. that will be carried out through the additional powers We recognise and pay tribute to the campaign for justice of the Bill will in any way impact on the time scale of and for the families, and today we will help it to proceed the new inquests? Will he say more about his latest to a conclusion. expectations regarding the timing of the application to Let me again place on record my sincere thanks to the the High Court to quash the original unsound verdicts? Right Rev. James Jones and the Hillsborough panel, who have done such important work to enable us, by Damian Green: On the first point, I know that the means of the Bill and other measures, to right some of IPCC is extremely aware of the desire for things not to the many wrongs that have been perpetrated over those appear to be unduly delayed. Indeed, that is one reason 23 years. I pay particular tribute to my right hon. why we are here today—to put a Bill through all its Friend the Member for Leigh for leading that process in stages in one day, which shows that the House and the government, and for not abandoning it in opposition. I Government are trying to speed the process up as much think it is telling that every Member representing the as we can. city of Liverpool was present for the Minister’s speech On the application to the High Court, I know that my today, and that so many Members on both sides of the right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General is House representing the north-west and, indeed, other proceeding as fast as he can, and I think a decision will parts of the United Kingdom are present for the debate. be made public very shortly. I can go no further than that, but the hon. Gentleman’s wider point is well made, Stephen Mosley: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree and I absolutely take it. I am very conscious that people that the cross-party nature of what has happened since want to see that this process, having started after the 2010, when the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy report, is not unduly delayed at any stage. I am very Burnham) took action to enable the independent panel keen, as I know are many other people who have been to sit, has shown the House operating at its absolute involved from the start, that that should happen. best, and that more has been achieved for the victims of That explains why the House should not today consider Hillsborough since then than was achieved in the preceding the wider reform of the IPCC, although we will examine 20-odd years? whether there are other gaps in its powers. We have asked it what tools it needs to progress its investigations Mr Hanson: I hope it can be said that death does not into Hillsborough, and this short Bill will ensure that it bear a party banner, and that the tragedies faced by has the two additional powers for which it asked. The many of my constituents and those of other Members Bill thus represents an important step on the road from throughout the House have led us to take action that truth to justice for Hillsborough. All who support that will achieve the justice that they seek, the justice that aim will, I hope, support this Bill. I commend it to the they want, and the justice for which they have fought in House. the face of the lies that have been perpetuated in the community around them for so many years. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I must now We should recognise that the Bill is one step—albeit a announce the result of the deferred Division on the small step—towards our achieving justice for the 96 families, draft order amending schedule 1 to the Legal Aid, their friends, their relatives, and the many people who 935 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 936

[Mr Hanson] representatives. Not only can this seriously undermine public confidence in IPCC investigations, it can also impact on the were injured on that day; but we should also recognise overall effectiveness and timeliness of investigations.” that that journey towards justice is far from over. As we Clause 1 will remedy that, and I welcome it. have heard today, the Attorney-General is considering There is a separate issue. My right hon. Friend the whether there should be a fresh inquest. We certainly shadow Home Secretary has rightly asked Lord Stevens want to see the verdicts of the original inquest crushed, to address in his independent review for our party and we want the Director of Public Prosecutions to whether there should be a new police standards body review as a matter of urgency evidence relating to the and to look at the role of the IPCC going forward. That important matters that occurred that day.The Independent is a debate for another day, but as the Minister has Police Complaints Commission is, of course, already recognised, in the longer term we will need to put in looking into the conduct of police officers. place a strong body to provide the safeguards and The Bill is part of the process of securing justice for standards required to hold the police to account. That the relatives, friends and families, but it is only part of will take time, however, and the friends and families of that process. Justice will not be achieved until all the the victims and the communities of Merseyside, Liverpool, matters to which I have referred have been dealt with to my area of north Wales and beyond demand that we the satisfaction of the families, in line with the Hillsborough have early action. That is why this Bill is before us today. panel’s recommendations. Based on the report, the IPCC wants to look into two Steve Rotheram: On the need for urgency, does my potential criminal and misconduct issues. First, it wants right hon. Friend agree that the Bill does not inhibit our to examine the conduct of the police on 15 April 1989, ability to establish a lead investigator to oversee the addressing the culpability of the individuals and myriad current investigations, and that that might help organisations involved and the safety standards, planning Parliament to understand the need for urgency? and operational decisions of that day that led to the Hillsborough disaster. Secondly, an equally important, Mr Hanson: I am very much on the side of my hon. but perhaps even worse, series of incidents is being Friend, and I again want to pay tribute to him and to examined: the evidence suggesting a cover-up in the the impact he has made on these matters since his weeks, months and years after the disaster. Of the election in May 2010. He knows the community where 164 statements taken by officers on that day, no fewer he lives and which he represents. He knows that they than 116 were changed in some way, shape or form. want to see those matters dealt with urgently, as do all That is deceit on a huge scale and we need to get to the hon. Members; those of us who have bereaved relatives bottom of it for the sake not only of the integrity of the in our constituencies know what that means to them police, but of justice for the 96. and how they want to see the main important matters I thank the Home Secretary for having listened to the that my hon. Friend has brought forward addressed. concerns expressed by the shadow Home Secretary, my Clause 1 will amend the Police Reform Act 2002 to right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract confer witness attendance powers on the Independent and Castleford about the powers available to the IPCC. Police Complaints Commission. The way in which that It must have the tools it needs to carry out a thorough will be done is set out in newly published regulations investigation into both allegations of criminality and from the Minister, which will adopt a similar approach misconduct and the events of the day. The families who to that set out in the 2002 Act. Clause 2, on the have campaigned for that—as well as for the inquest, application of part 2 of the 2002 Act, will deal with for the quashing of the verdicts and for the Director of questions that the Minister has also mentioned. It will Public Prosecutions to review the evidence—demand amend the legislation currently preventing the IPCC no less. from investigating any matters previously considered by My right hon. Friend called in October for the inquiry the Police Complaints Authority. Given that these issues to have those powers, because she recognises that it occurred under the PCA’s jurisdiction, it is vital that must get to the bottom of why so many police statements that bit of the Bill is also put in place. were altered. Although the IPCC can pursue officers it Later on we will deal with an amendment, but it is believes have committed crimes, it does not at present important to refer now to the issue at the heart of it. I have powers to compel serving or former officers to be have pressed the Minister strongly, as have my right interviewed as witnesses; nor can it compel civilians to hon. Friends the Members for Normanton, Pontefract give evidence. Those obstacles must be removed, and and Castleford and for Leigh, on the issue of the the Bill achieves that. What consultations did the Minister sanctions in place should an officer fail to attend an have with the families prior to the publication of the interview. Such an officer would indeed be subject to Bill, and does he intend to have further discussions with misconduct proceedings, and the Minister has explained representatives of the families in the next few weeks? to me privately, and has explained to the House today, As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester how he believes those will deal with that issue. I simply East (Keith Vaz) has said, the Home Affairs Committee say to him that we will be maintaining a strong watching welcomes the Bill. It has also made some helpful comments, brief, because we may need to revisit the sanctions issue and I hope the Minister will reflect on them. It is clear either in Committee or at a later date. that the IPCC does not have the powers it needs to meet The amendment tabled by the all-party group on the the objectives it has set itself. Indeed, it has informed Hillsborough disaster, so ably chaired by my hon. Friend the Home Affairs Committee that the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), raises “where police officers refuse to attend for interview, IPCC investigators that issue. We will have the debate when we deal with can only seek the information they need through the submission the amendment, but it is important that those who of written questions to officers via their solicitors or other refuse to address the needs of the IPCC—if there are 937 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 938 such people, and there may not be—face some sanction. but I would welcome some indication of the time scale The Minister has made it clear to me that that will within which, once the Bill has been approved, he would involve police misconduct proceedings, which could expect the IPCC to conclude its consideration of these involve dismissal, loss of pension or other issues. The matters. If he cannot do that today and wants to give it key question is this: is the sanction sufficient? We will further consideration outside the Chamber, I would test that at a later date. welcome it if he could drop a note to Members who Discussions also have progressed with my right hon. speak on the subject on Second Reading. An indication Friend the shadow Home Secretary and myself on the from the IPCC of its intended time scale would certainly IPCC’s inability to compel retired officers to attend be welcome. interviews. The Minister has agreed to look at this I genuinely support the Minister’s Bill, but I would matter. He has given an explanation again as to why also welcome his comments on correspondence that I retired officers should not be eligible to be brought for have received in the last 24 to 36 hours from bodies interview; this was because of the difficulties of legislation representing the police that have considered the Bill and other related matters. In a letter that he sent the post-publication. It worries me, so I ask the Minister to shadow Home Secretary on 22 November, which was give some consideration to the points it raises. First, I copied to me, he said: have a letter from the Police Superintendents Association “As I set out on Monday, we understand the calls to grant a of England and Wales addressed to my right hon. power to compel retired officers to attend interviews, and” — Friend the shadow Home Secretary and copied to me. It this is important— is from Chief Superintendent Derek Barnett, the president “will consider these in slower time, but do not feel it is appropriate of the association, and the very first line states: to grant such a wide-ranging power through fast track legislation.” “It is disappointing that the only notification…of this legislation Will the Minister indicate during this debate what exactly was a telephone call from an official the day before the Bill was he means by “slower time”? I would like to know with tabled.” whom he is discussing these issues, when he intends to He goes on to say that he shares report back to the House on them, and whether he will “your commitment to ensuring that the Hillsborough case is fully explore the issues that we have discussed in respect of and properly investigated in a manner that is both expeditious human rights legislation and pension confiscation. Will and thorough, and with the eventual outcome that the full he report back to the House after this fast-track legislation circumstances of those terrible events are once and for all indentified on those matters? and that justice can be seen to have been done.” A commitment made by the Minister today—even The police superintendents support elements of the now, dare I say it—from across the Dispatch Box to Bill, but I am slightly surprised that they were not report back to this House on those matters would be of consulted about it as a whole apart from by telephone great interest. It would be very much welcomed by on the day before it was tabled. Between now and the Members of this House, who are concerned that officers Bill’s consideration in the other place, will the Minister involved in incidents at Hillsborough who have retired meet the superintendents or contact them and listen to will not be subject to criminal proceedings because they the points they want to make? I support the Bill as it is, are not involved in criminal activity but could give but the superintendents want to make some points information that is beneficial to a range of other matters about it and the lack of consultation is concerning. relating to the Hillsborough inquiry. I want to know They will have a role to play on these matters in future from the Minister, now or later, what he means by and the Minister might find that they support him. “slower time”, because it is important. I would welcome I also have a similar letter from the Police Federation. reassurance that those powers are available and will be It is from the deputy general secretary, Stephen Smith, considered. I will not push him further than that today, who states on page 2: but we will revisit the question in due course. “I have to say that I am personally disappointed by the action I would also like the Minister to confirm my taken in issuing the Bill, rather than consulting with the sub-committee understanding of the situation with the IPCC’s oversight in the first instance. I believe this course of action demeans the very important work that has been carried out over the last as it extends to private contractors that provide services 7 years.” to or on behalf of the police. The legislation is put in place for Hillsborough, but also for other events, as my The sub-committee to which he refers is the Police hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) Advisory Board for England and Wales sub-committee, mentioned, and for all time until it is changed by future which is a negotiating body on these matters. legislation. Will the Minister confirm that police community Whatever our view on a range of incidents, the police support officers and those individuals who undertake have an important say on this matter, and the fact that private contracting for the police force will come under they have not been formally consulted is an oversight. the auspices of the Bill? I know the answer to that Between now and Second Reading in another place, if question, but I want the Minister to put it on the record the Bill progresses today, as I expect it to do, will the in the Chamber before the Bill is passed. Minister make contact with the Police Federation to I welcome the fact that the IPCC has suggested that it give the police an opportunity to have their say? will be in a position to take witnesses early in the next My final point relates to the scope of the Bill. The year. All Members of this House who are involved, Minister knows that he is the Policing Minister for both those who represent the city of Sheffield—I am England and Wales, and that potentially, as we discussed pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone outside the Chamber, police officers who in 1989 worked and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) in her place—and for a force in England and Wales may now work for a those who represent constituencies in the north-west force in Scotland or Northern Ireland, outside the would welcome an early conclusion. The Minister has Minister’s jurisdiction. We raised the matter in our been keen to say that the investigation will be independent, informal discussions and I do not believe I have had a 939 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 940

[Mr Hanson] Outside this debate, the Attorney-General is doing absolutely the right thing by pushing for an early referral response from the Minister, unless I missed it. I would to the High Court and for it to make a speedy decision welcome an update on the progress that he has had with on the validity of the original inquests. The Home the devolved Administrations in Northern Ireland and Secretary has done absolutely the right thing by calling Scotland on ensuring that the terms of the Bill would for the IPCC to investigate both the actions of the not encounter any difficulties from those Administrations. police on the day of Hillsborough and their subsequent They are different Administrations and have different involvement in any form of cover-up. She promised that police forces. If somebody is now employed by the the IPCC would be given the powers and resources it Police Service of Northern Ireland or the Scottish police needs to pursue that investigation, and that is what the force, that could present difficulties. I would like to see Bill delivers. the matter resolved. The Minister has said outside the I would like to thank the Home Secretary for the Chamber that he has discussed it and is coming to a speed with which she has brought the Bill forward. The conclusion on it. families of the Hillsborough victims and the survivors I welcome support for the Bill from Liberty, the are understandably looking for swift justice. Given that human rights group, which believes that this is the right the IPCC intends to begin calling witnesses to its course of action. There is cross-community support for investigation at the beginning of next year, the sooner it the Bill and I wish it fair passage. My hon. Friend the is in possession of the necessary tools, the better. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) referred in an intervention to the petition organised by Anne It is important to say that, as with all the progress Williams. Perhaps the Minister winding up the debate that has been made on Hillsborough since 2010, I am can give us an update. As we know, Anne Williams has delighted that the Bill has cross-party support today. I a very difficult and challenging illness and wishes to know that the shadow Home Secretary spoke in favour ensure that her concerns about her family’s loss are of fast-track legislation during the Bill’s First Reading a resolved before her illness reaches a sad conclusion, as fortnight ago, and Opposition Members have been a she expects it to do. We should consider an early opportunity great help in advancing the Bill. to discuss that petition again in the House. May I press the Minister for an early answer from the Department Alison McGovern: I agree wholeheartedly with every on the earliest possible inquest into the family of word the hon. Gentleman has said. Does he agree that if Anne Williams? it was possible to dedicate legislation, we would all like The Bill has widespread support. There are some to dedicate this legislation to the families of those who issues which I have raised with the Minister today that lost loved ones on that day? we want to see explored in detail, but I know as somebody who represents families who lost relatives at Hillsborough, I know from being born and growing up in Liverpool Stephen Mosley: I agree entirely. I know families of the community that I represent, I know from my support people from Chester who sadly died that day, and for that football team for my entire life, and I know 23 years later it still affects them daily. It is up to us in from the contributions, work and efforts of my right this House to ensure that we achieve a swift resolution hon. and hon. Friends from across the region and for them, and that is what we are trying to do. It is what across my area of north Wales that the events of we have been trying to do since the right hon. Member Hillsborough in 1989 caused such challenge, tragedy for Leigh (Andy Burnham) set up the independent and concern that we now want justice for the families of panel three years ago. Absolutely everything we do is to those 96 victims and others who were injured. ensure that we get justice for all 96 and all survivors. Through their effort, passion and commitment the The Bill, as we have heard, contains two main clauses families have brought the case to the stage that we are at and performs two main functions. I will look at it today, where an inquest is potentially pending, verdicts backwards and consider clause 2 first. Clause 2 allows can be quashed and the Director of Public Prosecutions the IPCC to launch investigations into incidents that is going to act on the matter. The Bill gives an opportunity occurred before the commission was established in 2004 for the Independent Police Complaints Commission to and incidents previously investigated by its predecessor, provide answers and take real action on the concerns the Police Complaints Authority. The Bill will essentially that have existed for many years. I welcome the Second make it possible for the IPCC to investigate police Reading of the Bill. We will return to issues in due actions at Hillsborough 23 years ago, which I totally course in Committee, but the Opposition support the support. Bill here and in another place and look forward to the The Bill will also compel serving police officers to day when the IPCC’s investigation leads to satisfaction, attend hearings as witnesses, a power that has not truth and justice for the families of those who were lost previously been available to the IPCC. It is important to in Sheffield on that day in 1989. note that, although the Bill has been brought forward specifically because of Hillsborough, most of us would 4.39 pm agree that the power to call police officers as witnesses should be a tool that is regularly at the IPCC’s disposal. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): I, too, welcome I am therefore pleased that the Bill is not set to expire and warmly approve of the Bill. The whole country was and that the powers conferred on the commission will shocked by the findings of the Hillsborough independent be retained for future IPCC investigations. panel. In subsequent statements and debates in this House, it has become obvious that there is a huge I note, as did the shadow Policing Minister, that the groundswell of parliamentary opinion that swift action Police Federation has expressed some concerns, especially needs to be taken to achieve swift justice for the 96. about the clause that will require police officers to 941 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 942 attend an interview. Steve Evans, who leads for the misconduct against the officer in question. However, Police Federation on professional standards, has raised the question of whether the non-attendance of the a valid concern: officer is to be determined as misconduct is also left at “Police officers are going to be treated differently from any the discretion of the relevant authority. The IPCC has other section of society. I am not quite sure what” stated that a refusal to attend an interview should be the Home Secretary immediately categorised as misconduct and that appropriate disciplinary action should instantly be triggered. I have “is hoping to achieve.” a large degree of sympathy with that proposal. I implore In response to that point, I think that police officers the Policing Minister to consider adopting the amendment, should indeed be treated differently from other sections which would allow the Home Secretary to ensure that of society, by virtue of the fact that they are entrusted clear, unambiguous and consistent sanctions can be to administer the law, must be accountable for their implemented across the country. actions and must not be able to shy away from any form of investigation. Mr Evans went on to say: This debate is set in the context of an extremely tragic matter, but in my two and a half years as a Member of “I would like to know what the problem is that needs fixing—as Parliament the issue of Hillsborough has consistently well as the evidence which suggests that officers do not comply with the current system.” brought out the very best in this House. For as long as that is necessary, I hope that it continues. The IPCC briefing paper that we received helps us in responding to Mr Evans’ concerns. It says: Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I gave “Though we do not keep specific records of instances of some leeway to the hon. Gentleman in making his non-cooperation, we have readily been able to identify at least speech, but I hope that we will not dwell too much on 25 cases, involving over 100 police officers, where there has been a the amendment, as we will obviously move on to that in refusal to attend for interview. These cases cover such serious matters as death or serious injury, police shootings, road traffic Committee. incidents and the use of excessive force.” Indeed, a recent case in point is that of the shooting of 4.49 pm Mark Duggan in Tottenham last year that contributed Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): to the escalation of violence in the area and led eventually A number of hon. Members have already pointed out to riots across the country. The police marksman who that it is highly unusual to fast-track an important shot Mr Duggan refused to be interviewed by the IPCC Bill, but we are dealing with an unusual circumstance as part of its investigation into the incident, as did and it is essential that this Bill goes through. We are 30 other officers. Because of the legislation that is dealing with the aftermath of a terrible tragedy that currently in place, the commission was unable to insist happened 23 years ago: 96 people died, thousands on attendance. Regardless of the specific need to expedite more were injured or traumatised, there was a cover-up, investigations into Hillsborough, Mr Duggan’s case alone nobody was brought to book for what happened and, highlights a need for wider change in the legislation. indeed, the victims were blamed for the culpability of While I am totally supportive of the Bill and wish it others. That cover-up is now unravelling and there is a all speed and every success in its passage through Parliament desire for urgent justice and accountability. That is why today, there are a couple of areas where questions need we are considering this Bill, but this is only one part of a to be answered. First, the Bill does not compel ex-police whole range of actions now being taken speedily and officers or ex-police staff to attend interviews as witnesses. correctly. Hillsborough was 23 years ago, and many of the officers The Independent Police Complaints Commission has involved will no longer be serving. I know that my right published its 10-point terms of reference, a number of hon. Friend the Home Secretary is aware of this problem which demonstrate the relevance of this Bill. The IPCC and has considered it. On 22 October, during the debate wants to find out what happened and how 116 witness on the Hillsborough independent panel’s report, she statements came to be altered in order to remove or said: lessen the culpability of police and, indeed, others. It “The Government are already looking at what additional wants to consider the validity of the police evidence to powers the IPCC will need, which includes proposals to require the all-important Taylor inquiry. It wants to consider current and ex-police officers who may be witness to a crime to the conduct of the West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire attend an interview”.—[Official Report, 22 October 2012; Vol. 551, police in relation not just to what happened at the time c. 721.] but to subsequent investigations. It wants to investigate I, too, would like the IPCC to be given the power to call the authorisation given to test the alcohol levels of the former officers to give evidence. I appreciate, however, victims and to allow access to the police national computer that that may be a difficult provision to enact and that in an attempt to denigrate the victims. The vital issue of this emergency Bill is probably not the right place in what happened on the day and of who took the decision which to include such a power. I note that the IPCC has to open the Leppings Lane gate is critical. The culmination discussed this and decided that the requirement relating of all that was the attempted cover-up—indeed, it was to former officers would be unenforceable and that successful—to blame the victims for what happened. there would be little value in adding it to the Bill. Those are just some of the items specified in the However, I would like one aspect to be tightened, IPCC’s terms of reference. In order for them to be and, with other Members on both sides of the House, I investigated properly, it is essential that the IPCC has have submitted a probing amendment to be discussed in adequate powers. It is critical that we discuss the issue Committee to explore it further. In essence, it is about and make a decision today so that the new investigation sanctions for non-attendance at interviews. As the Bill can start quickly. I understand that if we reach an stands, sanctions for non-compliance will be dealt with agreement today, the IPCC investigation will be able to by the relevant authority tasked with dealing with start in early 2013. 943 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 944

[Mrs Louise Ellman] manipulation and self-interest by the police forces involved in the disaster have been covered extensively in the The Bill addresses two key areas. First, it will enable media. It is clear from the Hillsborough independent the IPCC to compel serving officers and their staff to panel report that the extent of the loss of life can be answer its questions as witnesses. The IPCC will be able attributed to multiple failures in the emergency services to consider whether they are guilty of misconduct or, and other public bodies that were charged with the indeed, criminality, but it is also essential that they safety of the public on that occasion. come forward as witnesses. Secondly—this is also We have to accept the reality that South Yorkshire essential—it will allow the IPCC to investigate issues and West Midlands police, as well as other emergency previously investigated by its predecessor, the Police services, made “strenuous attempts” to deflect the blame Complaints Authority. Both measures are important. for the crush on to the victims. The report stated clearly This debate has already shown that there are question that 116 of 164 police statements were marks over the Bill’s adequacy in respect of those measures. What would happen, for example, if serving “amended to remove or alter comments unfavourable to” officers or their staff did not agree to come forward South Yorkshire police. I know that the whole House when requested? Would the disciplinary measures, which would agree that that is clearly unacceptable. have been spelt out this afternoon, be adequate? I do For the victims of the catastrophe who have seen not think that we will know the answer until such an decades pass without justice, it is essential that we act to event happens. The issue of calling retired officers or ensure that the systems put in place to protect the public staff is not covered by the Bill, either. There may be can no longer place themselves above that duty. It is other means of doing that, but the situation is extremely therefore critical that we reform the IPCC. There are unclear. Those are two areas of the Bill that stand out at two issues. First, the changes proposed in this Bill, this stage as either not covered adequately or, in the case which I support, will, we hope, help the Hillsborough of retired officers, not covered at all. investigation, although I have a couple of concerns that Some of the issues will be addressed when we discuss I will raise in a moment. the amendment in Committee following this Second Reading debate, but it is essential that there is continuing Secondly, there is a need for broader reform of the dialogue and that the House is made aware of any IPCC. There is much concern among the public that it progress. We need to know whether the proposals for does not always act sufficiently independently, that it addressing these matters are valid, and we need an does not take up enough cases and that it is not able to ongoing discussion and up-to-date information, so that investigate cases as well as it needs to. I am pleased that if any further steps are required they can be enacted the Minister has made it clear that he will consider without undue delay. carefully the work that the Home Affairs Committee is doing to look more broadly at the IPCC. There are a There is cross-party agreement on what is happening. number of points that I hope he will look at. I have The Hillsborough independent panel was set up in the already raised the issue of those who operate in quasi- last Parliament and its work has been taken forward in policing roles. The former Chair of the IPCC, Nick this one. There is cross-party agreement on that. Hardwick, has said that Twenty-three years is a long time to wait for justice. “if it looks like a police officer, talks like a police officer, walks The families deserve no less than truth, justice and like a police officer, the IPCC should investigate it.” accountability. That requires speedy action, but that action must be backed up by sufficient powers to enable The Minister has said that he will have an open mind in the proper information to be considered in a judicial looking at those issues. I hope that he will take action process, if that is what is required. I hope that the Bill on quasi-policing roles. will help to achieve that. The Liberal Democrats support the Bill entirely. We It is extremely important that the House is kept are delighted that it also has the support of organisations informed of progress, including the consequences of such as Liberty, which rightly states that there should be this Bill being passed and the question of reopening the due process for police officers. However, there are a inquest—something that will be considered in this place number of issues that are not quite clear and I would be at another time. grateful if the Minister could reiterate his position on them. The first is what will happen to police officers who are required to attend an interview but who refuse 4.55 pm to answer questions at it. Everybody has the right not to Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): It will not be answer questions and not to self-incriminate, but there news to anybody in this House how serious the Hillsborough is a question about whether there is a duty on somebody disaster was. It is still the worst tragedy in British who is still an employee to answer questions. The Home sporting history. The shocking revelations of deception, Affairs Committee report, which we concluded yesterday blame and injustice have resonated with football fans in time for this debate, states at recommendation 10: and many others around the world. The 96 people paid “We note that refusal to attend an interview may result in an awful price and we are still learning from it today. I misconduct or gross misconduct proceedings, but that there is no hope that Parliament will at last ensure that we learn sanction for refusal to answer questions. We expect that chief the harsh lessons of the last 23 years through this vital constables will indicate to their forces that such uncooperative legislation. behaviour would be considered to be at odds with the spirit of I will not go through the details of what happened professional duty.” because they have been eloquently expressed by many I hope that the Minister will confirm that that is his right hon. and hon. Members who have much closer interpretation, too, and that he will encourage chief links to these events, and the unacceptable acts of constables to make that clear more broadly. 945 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 946

There is still the issue, which I raised with the Minister Yorkshire but throughout the country. Nevertheless, earlier, of former police officers. He pointed out, and that does not mean that things are perfect. The provisions others confirmed it, that they would have a moral in the Bill are part of the evidence that policing in this obligation to co-operate. That is definitely right—we country is moving forward. The fact that we are at the would like former police officers to take part—but I am point where we are saying that serving police officers not clear what would happen if the unfortunate occurred, and, we hope, retired officers can be required to give and some police officers did not agree to co-operate and evidence to the IPCC is a clear tribute to the progress that caused a fundamental problem with the investigation. that we are slowly making towards a position in which I hope that the Minister will consider what happens if policing is as transparent as possible. Only when we get that becomes a problem. to that position can we truly say that people will once again trust policing in this country. Damian Green: In the middle of that section of his speech, the hon. Gentleman moved from retired police Mr Hanson: Perhaps the Minister can respond in his officers to police officers. Did he mean retired police winding-up speech to one point I should have made in officers? my contribution but did not. What happens if an officer is under investigation under the powers in the Bill, and Dr Huppert: I am sorry; I meant former police officers subsequently, during the course of the investigation, who do not have to attend an interview and decide not determines to retire? Perhaps the Minister could clarify to do so, and that becomes a problem. I hope that the on the record what happens in those circumstances. Minister will consider, obviously with much reluctance, whether we need to do anything else to ensure justice. I thank him for correcting me if I misspoke. Angela Smith: I concur with my right hon. Friend that that is one of the key questions we need to discuss I hope that the Bill will be passed quickly, and I look in Committee. This is not only about retired officers forward to hearing other hon. Members’ comments and serving officers, but about those who do not want, today. through misguided loyalty, to incriminate people with whom they have worked over the years, and who might 5pm be tempted to retire, because they are on the point of Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I retirement, to avoid having to give evidence. am pleased to be able take part in this debate, albeit The numbers who will try to do that will be relatively briefly, because the events of that awful day took place small. I am absolutely confident that the vast majority in the city that I represent, and I was the Member for of South Yorkshire officers, both retired and serving, Sheffield, Hillsborough before the election. will be keen for the truth on Hillsborough to be established. I welcome the Bill, and not just because it makes the Most will be keen to co-operate with the IPCC inquiry. IPCC’s work so much easier—the investigation into Some of those who were there on the day have been to what really happened at Hillsborough, and, in the course see me about Hillsborough. It is clear that they want to of establishing the truth, holding to account those who put on the record their role on the day and the fact that were responsible. I heard what the Minister said about they did nothing wrong. It is in the interests of all those the bar for the use of the powers in the IPCC’s future who were serving in the force at that time and who were investigations, but I believe that incidents such as Orgreave involved in the events of that day are given the opportunity will reach the standards that that bar requires, and that to put on the record their memories of what happened. the Bill will be applied to them. That is why the vast majority of officers will be keen to I pay tribute to the shadow Home Secretary and to co-operate. The establishment of the whole truth is the my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) only way in which this issue will be resolved once and for their work, and to the Minister. The non-partisan for all. As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, manner in which the matter has been handled is a Riverside (Mrs Ellman) said, truth, justice and tribute to the House’s response to Hillsborough and to accountability are the only way forward. the Hillsborough independent panel’s report. It has The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) been to Parliament’s credit. We need to continue in that mentioned the possibility of witnesses refusing to co-operate. spirit. I know the South Yorkshire force and its leadership I sympathise with the shadow Minister’s views on the reasonably well. Hon. Members can only place our need to consider how we can enable the IPCC to require trust in the ability of that leadership to ensure that the retired police officers to co-operate with the investigation. clear message goes out to serving and retired officers That is a critical point. If we are trying to make it that full co-operation with the work of the IPCC is possible for the IPCC to conduct a thorough and definitive required. We have a golden opportunity to lay this issue investigation into what happened at Hillsborough, it is to rest once and for all. Achieving that goal—once and vital that no stone is left unturned, to use a cliché. Not for all resolving the disaster of April 1989—is primarily to be able to interview retired members of the force in the interests of the families of the bereaved, but it is would leave a massive hole in the IPCC’s investigations. also in the interests of South Yorkshire police and the Somehow, that loophole—that weakness—in the IPCC’s people of Sheffield, who have lived with the disaster powers needs to be resolved before it completes its daily. investigations. It is incumbent on all of us to remember that the In the debate in response to the Hillsborough panel’s provisions in the Bill apply not only to the actions of report, I spoke about the need for the House to recognise South Yorkshire police on the day and West Midlands that policing in South Yorkshire has changed since police. We know from the IPCC that other police forces 1989. I reiterate that today. Policing has clearly moved are almost certainly involved. If Orgreave is investigated on from where it was 23 years ago, not only in South using the powers in the Bill, the provisions will apply to 947 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 948

[Angela Smith] truth is—my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside mentioned this difference—we know that serving a number of police forces. In the interests of accountability, police officers, either under pressure or voluntarily, transparency and the future of policing in this country, altered important statements, and many of them will but more than anything in the interests of the families now be retired. I realise the Minister’s problem, and I of the 96, the Bill should be given a clear passage am not criticising him for not finding a way of covering through the Commons and speedily taken through the those people in the Bill, but the IPCC will have to think Lords, so that we can get it on the statute book and the about how it can, if not compel, at least make it difficult IPCC can get on with its work. for those retired officers not to give evidence. Quite how it can do that, at this juncture, is beyond me. I do not 5.9 pm offer any suggestions, but it is something that the IPCC needs to give careful thought to. Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I have been sitting here waiting to be called trying to think of some I wish to bring to the IPCC’s attention one other words with which to introduce my comments. My point that has been referred to already. Often, it is all hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside too easy to find a friendly doctor to say, “This person is (Mrs Ellman),who I thought was about to leave just as I not in a fit state to give evidence in such a forum.” Let was going to compliment her, expressed well the strong us be brutally honest. If someone searches for long feelings her constituents and mine have about the enough, they will find a doctor who will do that. If what independent panel report chaired by the Bishop of I shall call the Pinochet defence is used in these cases, I Liverpool. I do not seek to add to that, other than to hope that the IPCC will not accept it at face value and say that she demonstrated that we are almost at the that, if somebody claims to be unable to give evidence point of exhausting the lexicon of infamy in describing on the grounds of ill health, further inquiries will be what came out in it. made to test the validity of the claim. I want to make only two points, and I will try to be Finally, it was remiss of me not to welcome the Bill brief. First, with a little indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, and the work that the Home Secretary, the Minister and I would like to say that I know the Attorney-General is my right hon. and hon. Friends have done to bring us to close to the end of his deliberations on whether an this pass. With the reservations I have outlined, I am application should be made to the court on the inquest happy to give my strong support to the Bill. that took place. As I have said previously, I attended one day of the inquest with some of my constituents 5.17 pm and have never witnessed proceedings so designed to offend. I do not want to add to that, but I do not use Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): My right hon. that description lightly. I hope the Attorney-General Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) mentioned will reach a speedy conclusion to his deliberations, that the experience of some of his constituents at the inquests. the application will be made to the court quickly and That is something that has been said to me as well. that notice is taken of the online petition referred to by Family members have told me they felt that they were my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), the criminals, so bad was the atmosphere and the way which was set up by Anne Williams. I hesitate to go they were treated by those carrying out the inquest and much further than that because I am well aware of how some of those giving evidence, including police officers, the Lord Chief Justice might respond to the interference some of whom might be among those who need to be of politicians in the conduct of the courts, but I hope it dealt with by the Bill. I welcome the provisions and the will be given prominence in the discussions between the attempt to do just that. Attorney-General and the Lord Chief Justice. We have The independent panel report, among other things, the opportunity to talk about serving officers when we found evidence of extensive alteration of police records discuss the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for and attempts to impugn the reputations of the deceased. City of Chester (Stephen Mosley), myself and others, In its response to the report, the IPCC noted that it so I will reserve my comments on that issue until then. could not investigate all aspects of the police’s conduct, The second issue is whether retired police officers can because when the IPCC took over from the Police be compelled to give evidence to the IPCC’s investigation. Complaints Authority, a transitional provisions order My hon. Friends the Members for Wirral South (Alison set out that certain old cases could not be investigated McGovern) and for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela under the new framework. The Minister has adequately Smith) and the hon. Member for City of Chester have covered that point. rightly called on the good name of the police and said The Bill will provide two key new powers. The first that they hope everyone will do the honourable and will require a serving police officer to attend an interview honest thing. I echo those calls, but I throw in a note of as a witness. This new power will be increased by caution. Some people who are now retired—I will not regulations. The second new power will be to set aside get into the realms of talking about who they may be or the relevant articles of the transitional provisions order what they may have done—may be culpable of offences. in exceptional circumstances, so that the IPCC can Appeals to their honour, when by giving evidence they investigate certain old cases, where the PCA had already risk being put in a position where they are either telling been involved. I will speak briefly to both points. lies or incriminating themselves, will in some cases fall In its response to the panel’s report, the IPCC set out on fairly stony ground. the potential misconduct that had been disclosed. The In the years I have been a Member of this House, and potential criminal and misconduct issues fall into two even before that, I have always been a strong supporter broad categories: allegations—which go to the heart of of the police. I believe they perform an incredibly what happened at Hillsborough on 15 April 1989—that important role on behalf of all of us in society. But the individuals or institutions may be culpable for the deaths; 949 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 950 and allegations about what happened after the disaster, independent panel’s report. From what the Attorney- including allegations that evidence was fabricated and General has said, the application for new inquests is misinformation spread in an attempt to avoid blame. imminent—I am sure that is the case. This Bill provides The IPCC decision document set out a large number of an opportunity for one of the big injustices—the action matters that it proposed to investigate, but noted that it of those police officers who broke the law—to be addressed. was legally prevented from looking at some matters that The Bill should be allowed to proceed as quickly as had previously been investigated. That is why we are possible. here today. I will give one example of what is set out in the 5.24 pm report: the early lie, by Chief Superintendent Duckenfield, Damian Green: With the leave of the House, I should about the gates being forced open, which was corrected like to respond to the debate. I am grateful to all those by the chief constable that evening. This was investigated who have contributed and helped us to make progress by West Midlands police under the supervision of the towards ensuring that justice will follow truth. It is Police Complaints Authority. As such, although the important for the House to consider all the issues and IPCC deplores such dishonesty, it is legally prevented questions that the introduction of this Bill has raised. from investigating the issue further; it will therefore not Members of this House have shown great commitment be investigated. There are many examples of police in driving us closer to getting the IPCC investigation actions that the PCA had already investigated. That is under way. The point has been well made by the shadow why this Bill is so important and why it is so important Policing Minister, the right hon. Member for Delyn that the IPCC should be given the powers to investigate (Mr Hanson), and others that people do not want more what happened at Hillsborough. talk. They simply want to see the changes that will It is right that action can be taken against retired unlock justice. officers. A number of right hon. and hon. Members We have twin responsibilities in this House: we have have expressed their concerns about exactly how retired to ensure that progress is made after such a long wait officers will be dealt with. The Policing Minister has for the truth, but we also have a parliamentary responsibility acknowledged that point, but not yet to the satisfaction to ensure that the Bill that passes through the House is of all of us in the Chamber. We all understand the appropriate and fit for purpose. I think that today we difficulties, which is why they are not addressed by the will meet both those responsibilities. I am grateful for Bill at this point. However, I repeat that there are the support from hon. Members on both sides in getting dangers, and my right hon. Friend the Member for through all the business in a short time. The Bill will Knowsley gave the Pinochet example as one potential enable the IPCC to conduct a comprehensive, painstaking difficulty. and, above all, transparent investigation. Transparency There were serious failings on the day and an immediate has perhaps not been mentioned enough, but it is and longer-term cover-up by police officers, yet no one important that what the IPCC uncovers should be has been convicted for their role in either the deaths of transparent. the 96 or the systematic cover-up and the vilification of Let me address the individual points that have been the dead, their families and the injured. It is to be hoped made today. I shall start with those of the right hon. that the process this Bill is part of will enable that Member for Delyn. He asked about consultation with injustice to be rectified. Officers were pressurised to the families. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary change their statements. This Bill, along with the interest met representatives of the Hillsborough family groups that Members in this House have demonstrated over the on 18 October and, as the right hon. Gentleman would last few years, will not only show the strength of our expect, Home Office officials continue to be in regular feeling, but reflect the strength of public opinion, which contact with the groups and will write to them again is also represented by the number of people who have following today’s debate. The Home Secretary has also signed the latest petition and previous ones. It is now asked the Bishop of Liverpool to continue to act as the right that officers and former officers come forward to Government’s adviser on Hillsborough. His close give evidence and tell their story—it certainly should relationship with the families will obviously be very have happened before—knowing that they have public beneficial. support and that they are not driven by some misguided Several hon. Members, including the hon. Member view that they should protect colleagues or former for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram), asked about a colleagues, as my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone single lead investigator, as did the shadow Minister. and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) said. Officers certainly There are legal and constitutional constraints that would should be coming forward to tell their story.This legislation prevent the appointment of a single investigator to will ensure that serving officers do that, but it will investigate Hillsborough. Each of the bodies involved, hopefully encourage former officers to do so as well. and the processes relating to them, are independent The Minister rightly spoke of the “industrial scale” under laws passed by this House. However, I am conscious of the alteration of statements. That is an apt description. of the need for the various investigatory bodies, independent He was right, and my hon. Friend the Member for though they might be, to work closely together. The Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) was right to say IPCC and the Director of Public Prosecutions are working that nothing must stand in the way of the application closely together, and with others who have responsibility for a new inquest, given that Anne Williams is so for investigating those who cannot be the subject of seriously ill. Indeed, she spends much of her time in a IPCC investigations. Discussions are continuing on how hospice. Justice for Anne and the other families is the to approach any aspects of the investigation that cannot absolute priority. They have campaigned hard for be covered by the IPCC. I was also asked about the time recognition of what happened; they have campaigned scale. A decision on that will be made very early next for far too long. That has been acknowledged in the year. We are moving ahead with that as fast as possible. 951 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 952

Steve Rotheram: The Minister has mentioned our compel witnesses to attend interviews, so I can only questions about a lead investigator. According to repeat that to grant this power to the IPCC would be paragraph 9 on page 3 of the Home Affairs Select unusual in the extreme. However, given the seriousness Committee report that was published today, the Committee of the allegations being considered by the IPCC in the is recommending Hillsborough case, I repeat that the IPCC has made it “that a single, lead investigator should be identified”. clear that it will fully conclude investigations for both How much consideration will he give to that report? criminality and misconduct even when officers have left the service. Damian Green: As I have said, I can see where the This is an unusual step. The IPCC does not normally demand is coming from, and I have read the Home investigate retired officers for misconduct, but it is clear Affairs Select Committee report. There are, however, in this case that there is an enormous and legitimate very good reasons for what I have said about this, which public demand, reflected by Members of all parties, for I am sure hon. Members will understand. Given the that to happen. That is what the IPCC was going to do. constitutional independence of the Director of Public During its investigation, the IPPC will no doubt call Prosecutions and the IPCC, there could not be any retired officers to provide evidence. As we all agree, the attempt to direct them, especially the DPP. It would be retired officers will understand the importance of this improper in all senses for a chief investigator, let alone a investigation, and I am sure that the vast majority, if Home Office Minister, to direct him and tell him what not all of them, will attend willingly. to do. It would certainly be constitutionally improper as Finally, the IPCC has been clear that it needs these well, so there are genuine difficulties involved in going powers only in respect of serving officers. That is what down that route. I assume that the underlying drive the Bill provides for. I understand the calls to grant a behind the request for such an investigator is the need power to compel retired officers to give evidence, but to ensure that people do not go off in different directions because it is so unusual and because it would be such a or fail to talk to each other, thereby causing unnecessary powerful tool, I think it would be inappropriate to do delay through a lack of coherence among the various this through fast-track legislation. That should be considered strands that hon. Members have talked about. Everyone when it comes to the possibility of future legislation. involved is aware of that; I know they are doing their best to make sure that they proceed as much as possible Mr George Howarth: I understand the Minister’s in parallel. point that making a change such as this in fast-track legislation might not be appropriate, but can he give a The right hon. Member for Delyn asked me about commitment that, should it become apparent later that engagement with the Police Superintendents Association there is a reluctance on the part of retired officers to and the Police Federation. As I said in response to an come forward, some further action could be taken by earlier intervention, I have already had an exchange of this House to bring in an element of compulsion? correspondence with both bodies; indeed, my officials spoke to them before the Bill was published. I believe Damian Green: What I will say is that we are debating the right hon. Gentleman said at one stage that we this Bill here today because the IPPC came to the should have consulted formally, but that would have Government and said, “We need extra powers”. We taken 10 or 12 weeks, so it would clearly have been have responded as quickly as possible so as not to delay impossible. Inevitably, there has not been a lot of time the move from truth to justice. We are always willing to between getting the Bill right and publishing it. Of accept representations from the IPCC and to consider necessity, then, the consultation with the bodies was what is the most practical way of allowing it to do its done relatively shortly before we proceeded. I sensed the job as efficiently as possible. House’s pressure to get on with this, and that is what we The right hon. Member for Delyn asked me about a are doing. related subject, namely the retirement of officers during an investigation. The IPCC can continue an investigation Mr Hanson: In view of the written comments that I into either criminal or misconduct matters even when explained, will the Minister agree to meet, prior to an officer has chosen to retire in the middle of it. I hope Second Reading in the other place, representatives of that the right hon. Gentleman is reassured by that. He both the Police Federation and the Police Superintendents also asked about private contractors. Contractors working Association to discuss the Bill? as detention and escort officers already fall under the IPCC’s oversight, and are therefore covered by the Bill. Damian Green: I already have in my diary a meeting We are considering the need to extend the provision to with the Police Federation next week, and I would be other kinds of contractor. That is not relevant to events happy to meet the Police Superintendents Association that took place in 1989, because there were no private at any time. contractors then, but we will consider the issue in the There has been a lot of discussion about retired longer term, along with the IPCC. officers—not least by the shadow policing Minister, but I was asked when the IPCC investigation would conclude. also by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge I think that everyone recognises that it is a huge, complex, (Dr Huppert), the hon. Members for Liverpool, Riverside far-reaching investigation, and that it will take time for (Mrs Ellman) and for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela it to conclude thoroughly. The last thing we want is an Smith), the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) investigation that is not carried out thoroughly. The and the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson). IPCC will set out the scope and projected timings in the As I have said, former officers are civilians—not police new year. As well as meeting my officials, it has been officers—and they are no longer bound by the duties meeting the families and their representatives, and will and regulations that governed their lives as serving continue to do so in order to ensure that they are in the officers. The police themselves do not have powers to loop at all times. 953 Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill 5 DECEMBER 2012 954

My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester Police (Complaints And Conduct) Bill (Stephen Mosley) and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Considered in Committee Riverside (Mrs Ellman) asked about sanctions. As we are about to debate that subject, I shall not intrude on your patience, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I will say that [MR NIGEL EVANS in the Chair] we have not expressly provided for a sanction for failing to comply with a witness attendance requirement because effective sanctions are already available under the Police Clause 1 (Conduct) Regulations 2012. I shall doubtless say more about that shortly, when we discuss amendment 1. INTERVIEWS OF SERVING OFFICERS DURING Let me again thank the Opposition, and Members in INVESTIGATIONS all parts of the House, who have spoken today and expressed their support for the Bill. I hope that the 5.38 pm constructive manner and tone that have characterised Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): I beg to the debate will serve as a reassurance, not least to the move amendment 1, page 2, line 4, at end insert— families of the victims, that the House is working well ‘(e) for sanctions to be imposed on serving officers who to try to help them as much as possible. I look forward fail to comply with the interview process.’. to the Bill’s remaining stages. One of the advantages of a Committee stage that Question put and agreed to. directly follows Second Reading is that every Member Bill accordingly read a Second time. in the Chamber has heard the preamble. Everyone is aware of the issues, and everyone has heard the Minister’s initial response. That means that my speech can be POLICE (COMPLAINTS AND CONDUCT) BILL much briefer than it would otherwise have been: I hope (MONEY) to be able to complete it in two or three minutes. Queen’s Recommendation signified. We have all heard the arguments, and we have all Resolved, heard the discussions. We have heard the discussion That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Police about whether former police officers should be forced (Complaints and Conduct) Bill, it is expedient to authorise the to attend hearings, and the discussion about whether payment out of money provided by Parliament of any increase officers who attend hearings but refuse to give evidence attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act should be included in the scope of the Bill. I want to out of money so provided.—(Damian Green.) concentrate on an issue on which I think we can have an impact: whether sanctions should apply if a police officer refuses to engage in the investigation process. That was mentioned to us by the IPCC itself, and we ought to give further consideration to whether it should be included in the Bill. One question is whether the Bill should include a requirement on Ministers to draw up sanctions. To that end, I and other members of the all-party group on the Hillsborough disaster have proposed a probing amendment, to encourage the Minister to explain why such a provision is not included in the Bill. I hope my right hon. Friend the Minister will appreciate that it is not designed to obstruct what is an important and necessary emergency Bill, and that he will take the amendment in the spirit in which it is intended, which is to raise a serious question that requires a serious answer. The Bill compels serving officers to attend interviews in the course of an IPCC investigation, but it does not give an indication of what sanctions can be imposed on a serving officer who fails, or refuses, to attend an interview. As the Bill currently stands, sanctions for non-compliance will be dealt with by the relevant authority tasked with dealing with the misconduct of the officer in question. However, whether the non-attendance of the officer is to be determined as misconduct is also left to the discretion of the relevant authority. I agree with the IPCC that a refusal to attend an interview should be immediately categorised as misconduct, and that appropriate disciplinary action should be instantly triggered. The IPCC says in its briefing document: “The Commission is firmly of the view that if this power is to be effective, a failure to comply with a direction to attend should amount to misconduct. The Bill does not provide for such a sanction and we have expressed some concern about this, as we anticipate that some chief officers would welcome this unambiguous 955 Police (Complaints And Conduct) 5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints And Conduct) 956 Bill Bill [Stephen Mosley] Arising from that is my second question: is deferral to the police force in question enough? Does the Minister approach. The Commission hopes that Parliament will make have any evidence to suggest that that is a sufficient way clear that it is its express wish that police personnel should of approaching this issue? I was helped in my thinking co-operate with IPCC investigations.” about this amendment, which we tabled in recent days, By adding the amendment to the Bill we will instantly and here I must thank Sally Lipscombe of the House of deal with all of the IPCC’s concerns in this area. Parliament Commons Library. She quickly looked up for me the will be giving a clear indication that police personnel regulations that apply, and it appears to me that there should co-operate with IPCC investigations. Parliament are some questions on which an answer from the Minister will also be offering a clear, unambiguous approach to would be helpful, not the least of which is the point that chief officers across the country as to the disciplinary I have just made about what evidence there is that such action that we expect to be taken if a witness fails to a sanction is enough to compel officers to attend. comply with an interview request. The IPCC will have Thirdly, what happens once a sanction is applied? the confidence to deliver on its duty, in the full knowledge How does the interview and the evidence-gathering that Parliament is prepared to support its difficult work process then proceed? As my right hon. Friend the in calling police officers to account through an unambiguous Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) mentioned, we legislative framework. are concerned here with not only those honourable What I am not seeking to do through this amendment members of police forces who will be happy and keen to is tell the Minister what form any sanctions should take, co-operate with the IPCC, but those officers whose although the IPCC has made a firm statement that it evidence is vital but who do not wish to co-operate, for believes the failure to comply with a direction to attend whatever reason—they must understand that for themselves should amount to misconduct. The amendment merely in their own heart. If the force in question does choose requires the Minister to make a provision for sanctions to use the sanctions, does the IPCC then have sufficient to be imposed on a serving officer who fails to comply powers available to ensure that the evidence-gathering with the interview process. It is a simple provision that interview proceeds properly and informs the investigation? failure to comply would be a breach of the prescribed In essence, I wish to probe the answer to the three standards of behaviour as defined by the Police (Conduct) questions. How will the Government ensure that the Regulations 2012 and would result in misconduct IPCC, de facto as much as de jure, has effective sanction proceedings. That would satisfy all the issues raised and to make sure that people attend and give evidence? Is would be clear and unambiguous to all involved. I deferral to the force enough? Do we have any evidence therefore encourage my right hon. Friend the Minister that that is enough? If a sanction is applied, what then to consider agreeing to this amendment. happens? How does the IPCC make sure that it has I began by saying that it was a probing amendment to sufficient power for evidence-gathering to proceed? explore the issues involved in imposing sanctions on I will not trouble the Committee any further on the serving officers who fail to comply with a direction to issue of retired officers, except to repeat my earlier attend, but I hope the Minister will send out a clear, words of hope and anticipation that, notwithstanding unambiguous message about the sanctions that he expects the fact that many retired officers would want to give to be imposed on those who fail to comply. I am sure evidence freely and happily, all retired officers who may that if he does so, he will get the clear and unambiguous add to this investigation and bring about justice in a support of all Members of this House. speedy fashion will find it in themselves to do so. In conclusion, I just wish to say that although “Justice Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I want to delayed is justice denied” is a hackneyed old phrase, it raise a couple of issues. I wholeheartedly agree with the could have been written for this debate. So I anticipate hon. Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) speed, as the Minister has suggested, and I thank all that our Second Reading debate served to provide an Members of this House, not least those on both Front eloquent account of the context and importance of the Benches, for their efforts to date. Bill, so I shall not repeat any of those themes, but let me repeat, as I never tire of doing, my personal tribute to Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I want to press the the families of the 96. As I said before, they should Minister on a couple of points relating to the amendment think of this as their Bill. tabled by the hon. Member for City of Chester (Stephen Our amendment was designed to be a probing Mosley), which reflects concerns we have put privately amendment, and again I thank the Minister for his to the Minister outside the Chamber about the powers response to my letter yesterday. With your agreement, in the Bill. We had concerns about the sanctions available Mr Evans, I shall just ask a few further questions and I in the event of officers not participating in discussions hope the Minister will help the Committee by answering with the IPCC when requested according to the provisions them. He said that effective sanctions are available to in the Bill. The Minister has given me some helpful deal with those officers who do not wish to attend. The reassurances—I am sure he will do so again today—on question we seek to ask through this amendment is this: the potential sanctions available to police forces under to whom are those sanctions available? From what he the current legislation. He recently produced the Police has said, I take it that they are available to the officer’s (Complaints and Misconduct) Regulations 2012, which force, but we are trying to push for them to be available relate to the Bill. to the IPCC. What we are doing here is giving the IPCC I have two questions for the Minister. Can he point sufficient powers to make the necessary investigations, out the elements of the draft statutory instrument on so my question to the Minister is this: how will the the police in England and Wales that he published Government ensure that the IPCC has effective sanctions yesterday that highlight that the sanctions are available to deal with those who do not wish to attend? to forces? He has outlined that to me privately and I 957 Police (Complaints And Conduct) 5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints And Conduct) 958 Bill Bill have no doubt that he will do so again today. My of circumstances where officers may not wish to do cursory reading of the regulations—I accept that it is so—the IPCC will not be able to take forward the cursory—shows no mention of sanctions. I accept that investigations as it wishes in relation to Hillsborough, provisions are elsewhere in primary legislation, but it which is my hon. Friend’s main concern at present. would have been helpful to have put in the regulations However, the legislation is in place for all time, until it is the sanction we have discussed that is available to police repealed. forces. If there are no sanctions, an officer could retreat into I want to test the Minister on where the buck will their shell. The sanctions that the Minister outlined to stop ultimately when it comes to exercising the sanctions me privately are available to the force, but who takes the under other legislation that he has mentioned in our decision on such sanctions? Would it be appropriate for discussions outside the Chamber. We now have police a police and crime commissioner to learn about the case and crime commissioners and chief constables. Where from constituents or through representations from the will the buck finally stop on these issues, which are MP and to take decisions? Or is it solely a chief constable essentially personnel matters? If an officer did not matter? I pose those questions for debate. participate in a discussion on a non-criminal matter at I share the wish for a strong examination of the point the request of the IPCC and the sanctions that the made by the hon. Member for City of Chester, supported Minister has outlined to me privately and will no doubt by my right hon. and hon. Friends who signed the outline to the House are available, will they be the sole amendment, because the question of what happens responsibility of the chief constable or could they be when an officer says no is critical to the effectiveness of overridden by a police and crime commissioner who the Bill. The Minister needs to give a strong assurance took a different view? Are these matters operational or that that issue will not cause difficulties with the strategic? Hillsborough investigation or for future investigations of matters of concern yet to arise, involving a particular Stephen Mosley: Surely one of the advantages of force in a particular area. police and crime commissioners is that we will have someone who is democratically accountable to the people. The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian If a police and crime commissioner tried to override the Green): The amendment seeks to make express provision, decision, I am sure that they would feel the full wrath of on the face of the Bill, for sanctions in relation to a public opinion. failure to attend an interview. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for and other members of the all-party group for tabling it. his intervention, but I think he has missed my point, As the shadow Police Minister has just said, it airs an which is about where the buck stops. This is about the important issue. I am happy to assure my hon. Friend employment terms and conditions of individuals who and the Committee that such a provision is not needed work in the Police Service, and if the sanction for not because the Secretary of State already has the power participating in action with the IPCC was dismissal of a under the Police Act 1996 to make regulations about police officer, removal of pension or something else misconduct. The effect of the amendment, were it put under the disciplinary proceedings the Minister has into law, would be to duplicate a regulation-making mentioned to me privately, would the chief constable power that already exists in the 1996 Act. exercise that or could the police and crime commissioner? I absolutely support the need for an effective sanction Would the police and crime commissioner stand aside for non-attendance. Various suggestions have been made from the decision or would the chief constable take it about how we should convey this to those who will have alone? I am not trying to complicate matters; I simply to operate the sanction. I am fairly sure that this discussion want clarity, and this is the time for clarity on the Bill. will be important in conveying the will of Parliament to If a police and crime commissioner took a different those who do that. I must resist the temptation of the view from the chief constable, where would the buck suggestion from the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton stop? Is the matter operational? Is it protected, or is it (Steve Rotheram) that I should write to chief constables not? That is an important point in achieving clarity, telling them in detail what they should do. That would because the Bill is not only about the important matters be the classic interference in operational matters that we we are debating on Hillsborough but will be in place for seek to avoid, for obvious reasons. future IPCC investigations until it is amended or repealed. I am satisfied that, in relation to serving officers, an Such investigations might be serious, like Hillsborough, effective sanction for failing to comply with the witness or they might be relatively trivial. I want clarity from attendance requirement in clause 1 already exists. The the Minister about where the responsibility will lie. Police (Conduct) Regulations 2012 include a provision to the effect that misconduct means a breach of prescribed Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Does my standards of behaviour. A failure to attend an interview, right hon. Friend agree that one of the ways around the where required to do so, would be a breach of one or point that he raises would be for the Minister to write to more of the prescribed standards, with the result that individual forces to provide guidance on what he believes the officer should become the subject of misconduct would be an appropriate process for forces to follow, proceedings. Those would be serious misconduct should officers refuse to take part in interviews? proceedings and could result in the officer’s dismissal. Mr Hanson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I am glad that suggestion. The Bill is about giving powers to the IPCC the Minister has explained the procedures. If he will not to compel officers to give evidence. If officers do not write to chief constables to tell them what the disciplinary give evidence because they choose not to do so—in action should be, I take it that they will be made aware discussions with us, the Police Federation gave examples of exactly what is intended and what he has just said. 959 Police (Complaints And Conduct) 5 DECEMBER 2012 Police (Complaints And Conduct) 960 Bill Bill 6pm To provide expressly for a sanction in primary legislation in relation to witnesses but not to those who are subject Damian Green: Absolutely. As I have said, I think to investigation by the IPCC would be anomalous. Such that chief constables will be following this debate with a provision would suggest that the new power relating some interest. to witnesses is somehow of greater importance and To answer one of the points raised by the right hon. should be more robust than the existing power relating Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), the draft regulations to suspects, and that position risks falling into confusion, for the Bill do not include that sanction, because we are as the right hon. Member for Delyn rightly warned, clear that it can be imposed under the Police (Conduct) when we want clarity. That, I am afraid, would be the Regulations 2012. Of course, we are in continuing talks effect of the amendment; there would be more confusion with the IPCC about the regulations. To answer his than clarity. In any case, the Secretary of State has the other point, it is right that responsibility for matters power to do that. relating to discipline and the misconduct of serving officers rests with chief officers. They are the people Let me address the issues raised by the hon. Member who should deal with that. for Wirral South (Alison McGovern). If a serving officer refuses to attend an IPCC interview, they should be Mr Hanson: Just to be clear, if a police and crime subject to sanctions, which are serious and could result commissioner attempted one way or another to overrule in dismissal. If the officer continues to refuse to attend, a chief officer’s decision on an issue relating to misconduct they can still be investigated by the IPCC and, where under the regulations the Minister has made, they would appropriate, charges can still be brought regardless of be acting outside their powers. whether they attended an interview or refused to do so. Therefore, failure to attend the interview is not a way of Damian Green: The police and crime commissioner is avoiding the decisions of the IPCC. Such a failure there to hold the chief officer to account. If they believe would be a breach of prescribed standards of behaviour, that the chief officer is behaving wrongly, they will have and the officer would rightly become the subject of a discussion about it, and because the commissioner is misconduct proceedings. elected, as my hon. Friend the Member for City of The final, overarching point in reply to the hon. Chester rightly said, any sensible chief officer would Lady’s questions is that the IPCC is an investigatory inevitably wish to avoid a public dispute. The point is body. It has not asked for the power to impose sanctions, that the chief officer takes the operational decisions and nor is it particularly well-equipped to exercise that the police and crime commissioner holds them to account power; it is there to investigate. Having said that, I for their effect. His basic question was who was responsible recognise that we are all anxious to ensure that there is for enforcing the discipline and misconduct regulations, clarity on the availability of an effective sanction. and the answer is the chief officer. Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I do not have Bill Esterson: I do not want to stray too far into the the information in front of me, but my impression is role of police and crime commissioners, but if a police that the IPCC did ask for sanctions. and crime commissioner has a conversation with a chief constable because they are unhappy about that, or anything else for that matter, what power will the Damian Green: I have spoken to the IPPC, and it commissioner have to enforce that provision? clearly stated that it did not want sanctions to be included in the Bill for various of the reasons that I have Damian Green: Police and crime commissioners have given. While I am certain that there is no need to amend very significant powers in relation to chief constables. the Bill, I am happy to give the Committee the assurance Their ultimate power is to dismiss the chief constable if that I will continue to discuss the matter with the IPCC they believe that they are behaving so badly that that to see whether it needs any longer-term changes. In ultimate sanction is necessary, so the legislation provides making any changes to regulations, we need to take a considerable powers. consistent approach in terms of sanctions on those who My main point is that the effect of this change will fail to attend as a witness or as a suspect. simply be to replicate powers that are already provided for in statute, but it is also important to note that clause Alison McGovern: So that we can absolutely clear, 1 places a witness attendance requirement on different and as the Minister is, I am sure, in constant conversation categories of individuals. It applies not only to serving with the IPCC, will he write to me, as chair of the police officers, who are members of police forces and all-party group on the Hillsborough disaster, to confirm subject to the conduct regulations, but to police staff, that point? who operate under a different conduct regime and are outside the scope of the conduct regulations. As such, it would be neither appropriate nor effective for the Secretary Damian Green: I will be happy to write to the hon. of State to make regulations for a universal sanction Lady, as indeed I have written to the IPPC. I will send applying to those two very different categories of individual. her a copy of that letter so that everyone knows that the In clause 1, we have been careful to mirror, as far as position is absolutely clear and that we are all saying the possible, the existing provisions in the Police Reform same things in all forums. Act 2002 relating to the interview attendance requirement If my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester for those who are subject to investigation by the IPCC. will agree to withdraw his amendment, I assure him and As such, the two powers should be similar. The existing the Committee that we will continue to examine this provisions in the 2002 Act relating to those under question further to ensure that the effectiveness of the investigation do not include any provision for sanctions. procedure is maintained as much as possible. 961 Police (Complaints And Conduct) 5 DECEMBER 2012 962 Bill Stephen Mosley: I thank you, Ms Primarolo, and the PETITIONS previous Chairman for allowing the amendment to be debated. It is about an important issue and it was Families Against Suicide Today important that Members across the Committee had an opportunity to discuss it. I thank the Members who supported the amendment, which was, as I said, a Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I wish probing amendment to allow the Minister to clarify the to present a petition of 2,079 signatures on behalf of situation. I think that he has done that, and I look the members of Families Against Suicide Today. I should forward to reading his response to the chairman of the like to note that Burren is near Warrenpoint in County all-party group. Having heard his response, I beg to ask Down in the constituency of South Down. leave to withdraw the amendment. The petition states: Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. The Petition of Members of FAST (Families Against Suicide Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Today), Declares that FAST was brought together by Patti Boyle Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill. whose son Kevin left home at 12.30pm on 12 October 2011 after The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. telling her he was going to work and that 101 days later his Bill reported, without amendment. remains were found in a local area known as ‘Happy Valley’; further that Kevin had purchased an online suicide kit to complete Third Reading his death from a website which described death as ‘Deliverance’; further that the Petitioners marched on 30 August 2012 from 6.9 pm Kevin’s grave in Burren, Co. Down to Westminster to highlight Article 2 of the Human Rights Act 1998 the ‘Right to Life’. Damian Green: I beg to move, That the Bill be now The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons read the Third time. urges the Government to close down websites assisting suicide Members will be relieved to know that I do not and to prosecute those who commit the crime of aiding and intend to detain them for long, because they have heard abetting suicide. what I need to say. More importantly, there is broad And the Petitioners remain, etc. agreement about the Bill’s urgency and importance. I [P001142] hope that I have answered the questions raised during this good and detailed discussion. There will, of course, be a further opportunity to consider any issues when Film ‘Innocence of Muslims’ the other place debates the Bill next Tuesday. We have considered some important matters today, such as those relating to retired officers and the sanctions available 6.14 pm should a serving officer fail to comply, and I hope that Members of all parties who are concerned about those Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): This petition issues are now content. is from in excess of 4,000 Muslims in the City of This short Bill raises important questions, because Peterborough. the underlying issues are extremely important. The The petition states: Government are grateful for the support of the official The Petition of Muslims of the City of Peterborough, Opposition and hon. and right hon. Members of all Declares that the Petitioners feel hurt and shocked by the film parties for the Bill, which will allow the Independent ‘Innocence of Muslims’; further that the Petitioners believe that it Police Complaints Commission to get on with its represents a defamation of Islamic sacred values and is an insult investigations and finally achieve justice for the 96 victims to the Prophet Muhammad and that the Petitioners believe that of the disaster, the many injured and all the families and this defamation of the Prophet Muhammad, or indeed any other friends affected by the tragedy. Prophet, is unacceptable; further that the Petitioners do not accept the claim that insults to religious institutions, their prophets or their values fall within the scope of freedom of speech and that 6.11 pm whilst the Petitioners support freedom of speech they wish to Mr Hanson: I appreciate the Minister’s efforts to take remind people that it carries with it the role of responsibility and account of a range of views with regard to this important care not to hurt and humiliate the feelings of other people; further that the Petitioners believe this kind of film, along with Bill. I hope that, prior to the debate that will be held derogatory sketches and cartoons about the Prophet Muhammad soon in another place, he will reflect on the comments is blasphemous and tortuous to Muslims all over the world; made on Second Reading and in Committee and on further that the Petitioners wish to dissociate themselves from the those that might be made on Third Reading. Obviously, small minority of people who misbehaved during the protest we will watch what happens in another place, but I wish marches throughout the world against this film and that the the Bill a speedy passage, because ultimately it is one Petitioners believe that those actions were against the teachings of part of a number of measures to give justice to the our beloved prophet. 96 Hillsborough victims and their families. It is long The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons overdue and I hope that the IPCC’s investigation will be urge the Government to ban the film ‘Innocence of Muslims’ as swift as possible and thorough. I look forward to the from being shown, consider new legislation to make it a criminal offence to create films or cartoons of a blasphemous nature and Bill giving it the ability to call officers to account for support moves to recognise the responsibility attached to freedom their actions on that dark day in April 1989. of speech and ensure such derogatory material is not encouraged. Question put and agreed to. And the Petitioners remain, etc. Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. [P001144] 963 5 DECEMBER 2012 Clevedon Community Hospital 964

Clevedon Community Hospital PCT issued a press release on 28 March, confirming that plans for the new community hospital were “on Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House track”, and that do now adjourn.—(Nicky Morgan.) “the business case was revised to take into account changes in the NHS locally and to ensure the long term viability of the Hospital. 6.16 pm This work has now been completed and has been endorsed by the Cluster Board.” Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): I am pleased It ended by saying that to have the opportunity in this short debate to raise “the projected opening of the new Community Hospital will be in some of the issues related to Clevedon community early 2014.” hospital. After years of development, campaigning and fundraising, There has been a cottage hospital in Clevedon since the many stakeholders and supporters in my constituency 1874. The hospital has a fine tradition of providing care were delighted by the news. for more than 100,000 people living in Clevedon and However, on 19 July, North Somerset PCT issued a the surrounding area. The current cottage hospital has new statement, saying that the business case had been 18 in-patient beds, along with limited X-ray, physiotherapy, reviewed and that the hospital was musculoskeletal and minor injuries facilities. It also “unaffordable given the economic circumstances”. hosts a range of out-patient clinics. It is an invaluable It is hard to see what new information came to light service for the local community, especially for the many between March and July, so it is natural to conclude pensioners who live in my constituency, for whom travelling that either someone in North Somerset PCT got their to Bristol or Weston-super-Mare could take more than numbers very wrong at the beginning, or that the U-turn an hour on the bus—when the buses come, that is. was not actually based on affordability, but on priorities. The original Victorian building has been tweaked I ask the Minister to confirm exactly what new over the years, but it is bursting at the seams and there information came to light between March and July. It is is open concern among locals and NHS professionals scandalous that perfectly reasonable questions from the that the building would not confidently pass a Care community and its Member of Parliament were almost Quality Commission inspection. Those concerns are completely ignored, and left unanswered. We were all not new, so plans have been developed over the past understandably disappointed at such a quick—and four years for the building of a new community hospital seemingly unexplained—reversal. in Clevedon. Research has shown that the North Somerset PCT I pay tribute to the League of Friends of Clevedon underspent in 2010-11 and 2011-12 by £1.6 million and cottage hospital for its unstinting efforts in support of £1.06 million respectively. Transfers of £1.8 million the existing hospital over the past 50 years. Since 2005, were also made from North Somerset PCT to South it has spent £500,000 on building improvements and Gloucestershire PCT last year, and plans exist to make endoscopy, ultrasound and other facilities. For the past a similar transfer this year. four years, it has supported the plans for a new hospital North Somerset PCT, in its operational plan for and has raised another £200,000 towards further improving 2011-12, notes that, for that year, it was the lowest health care provision in Clevedon. It is a shining example funded PCT nationally. Being the lowest funded PCT in of the volunteer groups that make such a difference in the country and still underspending seems mightily our local communities, and we should applaud its unfair to my constituents when they perceive that money extraordinary efforts. is being transferred to other, better funded but less Over the past four years, four business cases have been frugal PCTs, seemingly to the detriment of capital submitted for the building of a new community hospital. projects in North Somerset. The third business case was submitted in 2011 and was The PCT has also expressed concern that financial given to the consultancy firm PricewaterhouseCoopers shortfalls at the general hospital in Weston-super-Mare for external scrutiny. It confirmed that the plans were have forced a changing of priorities, which, again, is to affordable within the existing budget and made a number the detriment of capital projects elsewhere in North of suggestions to improve a subsequent business case. Somerset. It appears that they are losing out, not on Those were incorporated in the fourth and final business grounds of affordability but because priorities lie elsewhere. plan. If others cannot function competently, that should be During the development of the plans, a preferred their problem, not ours. bidder for building the hospital was engaged under a Then there is the wasted money. The process of private finance initiative arrangement. The plans developed developing the plans, securing planning permission and by Amber Solutions for Care were also changed as a fees for external consultants, and administering the result of the consultancy process to bring the PFI tendering process has cost around £1.5 million. The annual rental charge down to £858,000 and, therefore, same again has been spent on procuring the Millcross within the amount affordable to North Somerset primary site in Clevedon for building the new hospital. The care trust. So by March 2012, building plans had been preferred bidder may also be in the process of trying to tailored to be within affordability levels, and an independent recover some of the costs it incurred while redesigning consultancy firm had improved and endorsed the business the hospital at the PCT’s behest. More than £3 million case. of taxpayers’ money and more than four years of In March, the business case was considered by the administrative effort may have been wasted on a hospital cluster board of the Bristol, North Somerset and South that never gets built. Gloucestershire primary care trusts and was recommended The people of Clevedon and North Somerset want a to the South of England strategic health authority for new hospital, and that is my main aim in the debate. its endorsement at a meeting in May. North Somerset Local reports are that endoscopy examinations have 965 Clevedon Community Hospital5 DECEMBER 2012 Clevedon Community Hospital 966 already been transferred out and the gynaecology unit 6.27 pm is being transferred to Portishead, and rumour has it that the minor injuries unit is being transferred to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health physiotherapy department, raising the question of the (Dr Daniel Poulter): I congratulate my right hon. Friend future location of the physiotherapists. I also understand the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) both on that visits by consultants from Bristol are to be scaled securing the debate and on his strong advocacy for back. Clevedon community hospital. Members who represent more rural constituencies I also want to secure the Minister’s assurance that know the importance of high-quality community health there are no plans for reducing the services currently care facilities, including community and cottage hospitals. provided at Clevedon cottage hospital, and that the They provide important close-to-home care for patients move of endoscopy and gynaecology services are only in more rural areas, particularly frail and elderly patients temporary measures. who have long distances to travel to receive health care. The handover from the North Somerset PCT to the We know the importance of such hospitals in meeting North Somerset clinical commissioning group could be the long-term challenges of the NHS. We need to both an opportunity and a threat. I know the CCG has redesign services and deliver more services closer to been involved in the decisions taken thus far, but it is home, and prevent inappropriate hospital admissions important to know whether it has the same view on the to big acute hospitals such as those in Bristol or Weston- need for a cottage or community hospital in Clevedon. super-Mare. That means ensuring that we have the right Let me clear that my constituents are wedded not to community resources properly to support local people, any particular piece of ground but simply to the including those with long-term medical conditions such maintenance of community facilities. That is why we as asthma, diabetes and dementia. In particular, we need reassurance from the Minister. We have watched need to ensure that we have community-based support plans for the proposed Portishead community hospital for older people—the biggest group with long-term disappear, and we watched Orchard View, with its conditions. exceptional care facilities, disappear. We will not tolerate We want to move the emphasis of care in this country community facilities in Clevedon disappearing too. If away from acute crisis management, to which the NHS the Millcross site cannot be built on and is subsequently is accustomed, both to save the NHS money and to sold, we must have assurances that the moneys raised provide better care for people in their homes and from the sale will come back into our health authority, communities. Community hospitals such as Clevedon so that they can be reinvested in the Clevedon cottage are important in delivering such care. They provide hospital on its current site. invaluable beds for people with long-term conditions to It is clear that there has been a managerial shambles, give their carers respite, and important rehabilitation in so the management should pay the price, not the people a setting close to home, family and support networks of Clevedon and the surrounding area. Responsibility, for people who have broken hips, or who have had accountability and transparency are all we seek. Surely strokes or heart attacks. They provide the opportunity that is not too much to ask. This has been a long, costly for step-up care for people who are not so unwell that and frustrating process that has damaged my constituents’ they need to be admitted to an acute setting, but who trust in their local PCT. Millions of pounds have been can be better looked after temporarily in an environment wasted. It is still unclear what changed between March that provides the additional care that people need. The and July. The old cottage hospital is in an ageing Dr Foster report, which was published this week, highlights building that has previously been deemed not fit for that 29% of patients did not necessarily need to be in purpose. acute hospital beds. If we are to meet the challenge of ensuring that people are better looked after and are not If the cottage hospital is to remain in service, it must in hospital beds when they do not need to be, it is be invested in so that its future is secure. At the very important that we invest properly in community resources, least, the proceeds from the disposal of Millcross must and Clevedon community hospital is just one of those be reinvested in the current site. I seek an assurance resources. that, if no new hospital is to be built, there will be no reduction in the services offered by Clevedon cottage I share with my right hon. Friend and the community hospital, and that endoscopy and gynaecology will be he represents their frustration with the primary care returned soon. trust, as I have Hartismere community hospital in my constituency. My predecessor, Lord Framlingham, had We need to know whether there is really no way that a considerable struggles with the PCT about the potential new hospital can be built. The plans are made; the closure of an important rural hospital. From what my affordability study has been completed; a contractor is hon. Friend says, his constituents and local patients secured; planning permission has been received; and have been having considerable struggles and difficulties public support is firmly in favour. The League of Friends with the local PCT in Somerset. Of Clevedon Hospital has been outstanding in its support for both the old hospital and the development of a new I acknowledge the special role the League of Friends one. Whatever the outcome of this administrative tangle, plays in the life of Clevedon community hospital, a I hope it will not be deterred from maintaining its point my right hon. Friend made in his speech. It has fantastic efforts. worked to raise a lot of money for the hospital and to ensure that it is retained as an important community We stand as one community to ensure that in the health care resource. It is dismayed and disappointed, NHS we get fair treatment, a fair hearing and our fair as are others in the local community, by the attitude of share of the health care that is due to the people of the PCT. I understand his disappointment, but under Clevedon. the PCT arrangements the provision of local NHS 967 Clevedon Community Hospital5 DECEMBER 2012 Clevedon Community Hospital 968

[Dr Daniel Poulter] With those reassurances, I will further investigate why the business case has gone from being approved to services remains with the local NHS. However, he is disapproved, as my right hon. Friend said. We have concerned that approximately £1.5 million or £1.6 million been reassured that the services currently provided at has been spent on project costs and other costs over a the hospital will continue to be provided for the foreseeable four-to-five-year period, in proposing to develop a new future. and sustainable community hospital facility in Cleveland. The money has been spent, but there is still no new Dr Fox: If we are to maintain clinical services on the facility. As physicians, we would rather the money had original site, substantial investment will be required. I been spent on a new facility or on community care. am sure that my hon. Friend will be sympathetic to our view. If a business case can be perfectly fine in March If it is any consolation to my right hon. Friend, I had but dumped in July, if we, the poorest-funded PCT, can a conversation with local health care representatives give money to other less well-performing PCTs and yesterday. They reassured me that even without the new given that the transfer is being put forward again this facility at the allocated site, there are no concerns about year, how can we have much confidence in the local any loss of services with the transfer from the PCT to management? Then, when our questions are not answered, the clinical commissioning group that will have responsibility as they continue not to be, we feel that there is not only for running community services. I hope it reassures my insufficient competence but a lack of transparency. I right hon. Friend to hear that when the new arrangements am grateful for his reassurance that the matter will be come into place in April next year services will remain looked into, but I would also like him to kick our local as they are now. PCT in the proverbials to ensure we get the money On endoscopy services, as clinicians we know that required from the sale of the Millcross site or from strict evidence-based clinical standards must be achieved additional investment, so that we can get the facilities when delivering endoscopy services, which, for patient that our taxpayers contribute towards but which seem safety and to maintain high-quality patient care, have to to be getting siphoned off into other areas, whether be adhered to. There were concerns that facilities at because of a lack of adequate priorities or competence. Clevedon hospital were not able to maintain those high standards. For example, arrangements for the Dr Poulter: My right hon. Friend makes a good case. decontamination of endoscopy equipment would have From what he has outlined, I fully agree that some of to be substantially improved if the service was to achieve the circumstances surrounding the decision seem external accreditation by the national joint advisory extraordinary and completely unacceptable. He described group for endoscopy, and that would need to be achieved it as being far from competent, and I would not wish to for the service to return to the hospital. disagree, judging from his analysis. We are interested in delivering high-quality front-line Despite my conversation yesterday with representatives patient care. The challenge for the NHS is delivering from local health care commissioners, I am alarmed by that care close to home and close to people’s communities. what my right hon. Friend tells me about the business That is what Clevedon does and what it needs to continue case to all intents and purposes being approved and to do. We need to ensure that PCTs, as they are at the then suddenly, between March and June, being moment, and clinical commissioning groups, as they disapproved—an extraordinary turn of events. It is will be in the future, invest in high-quality local health inexcusable to raise the expectations of local patient care services in order to meet the challenge of better groups, effectively giving a green light suggesting things looking after older people. That is the clear challenge were going ahead, and then to remove that expectation. that David Nicholson set for the NHS in 2009 in the I am happy to look into the matter further and to write quality, innovation, productivity and prevention challenge. to my right hon. Friend about it in more detail, because It is about the need to redesign services in order to I am concerned about the issues he has raised. When deliver better and more affordable care in the community. something like £1.5 million has been spent on planning, That was also the challenge that Dr Foster outlined and various plans and business cases have been brought for the NHS earlier this week. It is about time that my forward, it is all the more concerning. It is not a right hon. Friend’s local health care commissioners satisfactory state of affairs, as far as the local management acknowledged that challenge, invested in local health of NHS resources is concerned, and it is certainly not a care services and made the argument for keeping investment satisfactory state of affairs, as far as local patients are locally, rather than, as he said, siphoning it off elsewhere. concerned. I shall further investigate the matter and I will clarify the matter further by investigating with the write to him on the basis of those investigations. PCT what has happened. From our discussions so far, I On future provision, I would like to reassure my right can reassure my right hon. Friend that the PCT and the hon. Friend that, according to what local health care clinical commissioning groups reassured me yesterday commissioners told me yesterday, the services currently that they would, they thought, be able to find the provided at the hospital are safe and will still be provided. investment to continue with the current older buildings, Even though plans do not appear to be in place, as they maintaining them as fit for purpose to continue with once were, to build a new hospital on a new site, it patient care, and that patient care will continue on the would be relatively easy, I understand, to maintain the current site, as it does now, in April. Nevertheless, there buildings and the facilities on the current site in a state are clearly questions for the local health care commissioners that would allow for the safe delivery of high-quality to answer. patient care and the ongoing provision of services for Question put and agreed to. patients in the area. I understand that the older building can be improved, if required, to ensure that it can still 6.39 pm deliver high-quality patient care. House adjourned. 969 5 DECEMBER 2012 Deferred Divisions 970

Deferred Divisions Hoban, Mr Mark Offord, Dr Matthew Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric Hollobone, Mr Philip Opperman, Guy LEGAL AID AND ADVICE Hopkins, Kris Paice, rh Sir James That the draft Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Howarth, Sir Gerald Parish, Neil Offenders Act 2012 (Amendment of Schedule 1) Order 2012, Howell, John Patel, Priti which was laid before this House on 29 October, be approved. Huhne, rh Chris Paterson, rh Mr Owen The House divided: Ayes 288, Noes 213. Hunter, Mark Pawsey, Mark Division No. 116] Huppert, Dr Julian Penning, Mike Hurd, Mr Nick Penrose, John James, Margot Percy, Andrew AYES Javid, Sajid Perry, Claire Aldous, Peter de Bois, Nick Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Alexander, rh Danny Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Pickles, rh Mr Eric Amess, Mr David Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Andrew, Stuart Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Jones, rh Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Mr Marcus Pritchard, Mark Bacon, Mr Richard Drax, Richard Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, John Baker, Norman Duddridge, James Kelly, Chris Raab, Mr Dominic Baker, Steve Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Mr John Baldry, Sir Tony Dunne, Mr Philip Knight, rh Mr Greg Reckless, Mark Baldwin, Harriett Ellis, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Redwood, rh Mr John Baron, Mr John Ellison, Jane Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rees-Mogg, Jacob Barwell, Gavin Elphicke, Charlie Lamb, Norman Reid, Mr Alan Bebb, Guto Eustice, George Lancaster, Mark Robertson, rh Hugh Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Graham Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Jonathan Laws, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan Benyon, Richard Evennett, Mr David Leadsom, Andrea Rosindell, Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Fabricant, Michael Lee, Dr Phillip Rudd, Amber Berry, Jake Farron, Tim Leslie, Charlotte Russell, Sir Bob Bingham, Andrew Featherstone, Lynne Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rutley, David Blackman, Bob Field, Mark Lewis, Dr Julian Sandys, Laura Blunt, Mr Crispin Fox,rhDrLiam Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Scott, Mr Lee Boles, Nick Francois, rh Mr Mark Lidington, rh Mr David Selous, Andrew Bone, Mr Peter Freeman, George Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shannon, Jim Bottomley, Sir Peter Fuller, Richard Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Bradley, Karen Garnier, Mark Long, Naomi Shelbrooke, Alec Brady, Mr Graham Gauke, Mr David Lopresti, Jack Shepherd, Mr Richard Brake, rh Tom Gibb, Mr Nick Loughton, Tim Simpson, David Bray, Angie Gilbert, Stephen Luff, Peter Simpson, Mr Keith Brazier, Mr Julian Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lumley, Karen Skidmore, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Glen, John Macleod, Mary Smith, Miss Chloe Brine, Steve Goodwill, Mr Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Henry Brokenshire, James Gove, rh Michael May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Julian Brooke, Annette Graham, Richard Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert Browne, Mr Jeremy Gray, Mr James McCartney, Jason Soames, rh Nicholas Bruce, Fiona Grayling, rh Chris McCrea, Dr William Soubry, Anna Buckland, Mr Robert Green, rh Damian McIntosh, Miss Anne Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Burrowes, Mr David Greening, rh Justine McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Spencer, Mr Mark Burstow, rh Paul Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Menzies, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John Burt, Lorely Griffiths, Andrew Mercer, Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Byles, Dan Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Cairns, Alun Gyimah, Mr Sam Miller, rh Maria Stewart, Bob Cameron, rh Mr David Halfon, Robert Mills, Nigel Stewart, Iain Campbell, Mr Gregory Hames, Duncan Milton, Anne Stewart, Rory Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hammond, rh Mr Philip Moore, rh Michael Streeter, Mr Gary Cash, Mr William Hammond, Stephen Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel Chishti, Rehman Hancock, Matthew Morgan, Nicky Stuart, Mr Graham Clappison, Mr James Hands, Greg Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, rh Andrew Clegg, rh Mr Nick Harrington, Richard Morris, David Sturdy, Julian Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Swales, Ian Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Collins, Damian Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David Swinson, Jo Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mundell, rh David Swire, rh Mr Hugo Crabb, Stephen Heald, Oliver Munt, Tessa Syms, Mr Robert Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David Murray, Sheryll Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Neill, Robert Thurso, John Davies, David T. C. Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Timpson, Mr Edward (Monmouth) Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Tomlinson, Justin Davies, Glyn Hendry, Charles Nokes, Caroline Tredinnick, David Davies, Philip Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse Truss, Elizabeth Davis, rh Mr David Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew 971 Deferred Divisions5 DECEMBER 2012 Deferred Divisions 972

Tyrie, Mr Andrew Wheeler, Heather Jones, Mr Kevan Perkins, Toby Uppal, Paul Whittaker, Craig Jones, Susan Elan Phillipson, Bridget Vaizey, Mr Edward Wiggin, Bill Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Powell, Lucy Vara, Mr Shailesh Williams, Mr Mark Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Reed, Steve Vickers, Martin Williams, Roger Keeley, Barbara Reeves, Rachel Kendall, Liz Reynolds, Emma Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Williamson, Gavin Walker, Mr Charles Khan, rh Sadiq Riordan, Mrs Linda Willott, Jenny Walker, Mr Robin Lammy, rh Mr David Ritchie, Ms Margaret Walter, Mr Robert Wilson, Mr Rob Lavery, Ian Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Watkinson, Angela Wright, Jeremy Lazarowicz, Mark Rotheram, Steve Weatherley, Mike Wright, Simon Leslie, Chris Roy, Lindsay Webb, Steve Yeo, Mr Tim Lewis, Mr Ivan Ruane, Chris Wharton, James Young, rh Sir George Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sarwar, Anas Love, Mr Andrew Sawford, Andy NOES Lucas, Caroline Seabeck, Alison Mactaggart, Fiona Sharma, Mr Virendra Abbott, Ms Diane Davies, Geraint Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sheerman, Mr Barry Abrahams, Debbie De Piero, Gloria Mahmood, Shabana Sheridan, Jim Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Denham, rh Mr John Malhotra, Seema Shuker, Gavin Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Docherty, Thomas Mann, John Skinner, Mr Dennis Alexander, Heidi Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Marsden, Mr Gordon Slaughter, Mr Andy Ashworth, Jonathan Doran, Mr Frank McCabe, Steve Smith, Angela Austin, Ian Doughty, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Nick Bailey, Mr Adrian Doyle, Gemma McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Owen Bain, Mr William Dromey, Jack McDonald, Andy Spellar, rh Mr John Balls, rh Ed Dugher, Michael McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Straw, rh Mr Jack Banks, Gordon Durkan, Mark McDonnell, John Stringer, Graham Barron, rh Mr Kevin Eagle, Ms Angela McGovern, Alison Stuart, Ms Gisela Beckett, rh Margaret Eagle, Maria McGovern, Jim Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Begg, Dame Anne Edwards, Jonathan McKechin, Ann Tami, Mark Benn, rh Hilary Efford, Clive McKenzie, Mr Iain Thomas, Mr Gareth Benton, Mr Joe Elliott, Julie McKinnell, Catherine Thornberry, Emily Berger, Luciana Ellman, Mrs Louise Meacher, rh Mr Michael Timms, rh Stephen Betts, Mr Clive Esterson, Bill Meale, Sir Alan Trickett, Jon Blackman-Woods, Roberta Evans, Chris Miller, Andrew Turner, Karl Blenkinsop, Tom Farrelly, Paul Mitchell, Austin Twigg, Derek Blomfield, Paul Fitzpatrick, Jim Moon, Mrs Madeleine Twigg, Stephen Blunkett, rh Mr David Flint, rh Caroline Morden, Jessica Umunna, Mr Chuka Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Flynn, Paul Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Vaz, rh Keith Brennan, Kevin Fovargue, Yvonne Morris, Grahame M. Vaz, Valerie Brown, Lyn Francis, Dr Hywel (Easington) Walley, Joan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gapes, Mike Mudie, Mr George Watts, Mr Dave Brown, Mr Russell Gilmore, Sheila Munn, Meg Whitehead, Dr Alan Bryant, Chris Glass, Pat Murphy, rh Paul Williams, Hywel Buck, Ms Karen Glindon, Mrs Mary Murray, Ian Williamson, Chris Burden, Richard Goodman, Helen Nandy, Lisa Wilson, Phil Burnham, rh Andy Greatrex, Tom Nash, Pamela Winnick, Mr David Campbell, Mr Alan Green, Kate Onwurah, Chi Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Campbell, Mr Ronnie Greenwood, Lilian Osborne, Sandra Woodcock, John Caton, Martin Griffith, Nia Owen, Albert Wright, David Champion, Sarah Gwynne, Andrew Pearce, Teresa Wright, Mr Iain Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hamilton, Mr David Clwyd, rh Ann Hamilton, Fabian Coaker, Vernon Hanson, rh Mr David Question accordingly agreed to. Coffey, Ann Harman, rh Ms Harriet Connarty, Michael Havard, Mr Dai LEGAL AID AND ADVICE Cooper, rh Yvette Healey, rh John That the draft Civil Legal Aid (Merits Criteria) Regulations Corbyn, Jeremy Hermon, Lady 2012, which were laid before this House on 29 October, be Crausby, Mr David Hillier, Meg approved. Creagh, Mary Hilling, Julie The House divided: Ayes 287, Noes 213. Creasy, Stella Hodge, rh Margaret Cruddas, Jon Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Division No. 117] Cryer, John Hood, Mr Jim Cunningham, Alex Hopkins, Kelvin AYES Cunningham, Mr Jim Howarth, rh Mr George Aldous, Peter Baldry, Sir Tony Cunningham, Sir Tony Hunt, Tristram Alexander, rh Danny Baldwin, Harriett Curran, Margaret Jamieson, Cathy Amess, Mr David Baron, Mr John Dakin, Nic Jarvis, Dan Andrew, Stuart Barwell, Gavin Danczuk, Simon Johnson, rh Alan Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bebb, Guto Darling, rh Mr Alistair Johnson, Diana Bacon, Mr Richard Beith, rh Sir Alan David, Wayne Jones, Graham Baker, Norman Bellingham, Mr Henry Davidson, Mr Ian Jones, Helen Baker, Steve Benyon, Richard 973 Deferred Divisions5 DECEMBER 2012 Deferred Divisions 974

Beresford, Sir Paul Gilbert, Stephen Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura Berry, Jake Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Luff, Peter Scott, Mr Lee Bingham, Andrew Glen, John Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Blackman, Bob Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Shannon, Jim Blunt, Mr Crispin Gove, rh Michael Maude, rh Mr Francis Shapps, rh Grant Boles, Nick Graham, Richard May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, Alec Bone, Mr Peter Gray, Mr James Maynard, Paul Shepherd, Mr Richard Bottomley, Sir Peter Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Jason Simpson, David Bradley, Karen Green, rh Damian McCrea, Dr William Simpson, Mr Keith Brady, Mr Graham Greening, rh Justine McIntosh, Miss Anne Skidmore, Chris Brake, rh Tom Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Miss Chloe Bray, Angie Griffiths, Andrew Menzies, Mark Smith, Henry Brazier, Mr Julian Gummer, Ben Mercer, Patrick Smith, Julian Bridgen, Andrew Gyimah, Mr Sam Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Brine, Steve Halfon, Robert Miller, rh Maria Soames, rh Nicholas Brokenshire, James Hames, Duncan Mills, Nigel Soubry, Anna Brooke, Annette Hammond, rh Mr Philip Milton, Anne Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Browne, Mr Jeremy Hammond, Stephen Moore, rh Michael Spencer, Mr Mark Bruce, Fiona Hancock, Matthew Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Buckland, Mr Robert Hands, Greg Morgan, Nicky Stevenson, John Burrowes, Mr David Harrington, Richard Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Bob Burstow, rh Paul Harris, Rebecca Morris, David Stewart, Iain Burt, Lorely Hart, Simon Morris, James Stewart, Rory Byles, Dan Harvey, Sir Nick Mosley, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Cairns, Alun Haselhurst, rh Sir Mowat, David Stride, Mel Cameron, rh Mr David Alan Mundell, rh David Stuart, Mr Graham Campbell, Mr Gregory Heald, Oliver Munt, Tessa Stunell, rh Andrew Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Heath, Mr David Murray, Sheryll Sturdy, Julian Cash, Mr William Heaton-Harris, Chris Neill, Robert Swales, Ian Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Clappison, Mr James Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Swinson, Jo Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hendry, Charles Nokes, Caroline Swire, rh Mr Hugo Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse Syms, Mr Robert Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark Offord, Dr Matthew Thurso, John Colvile, Oliver Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric Timpson, Mr Edward Crabb, Stephen Hollobone, Mr Philip Opperman, Guy Tomlinson, Justin Crockart, Mike Hopkins, Kris Paice, rh Sir James Tredinnick, David Crouch, Tracey Howarth, Sir Gerald Parish, Neil Truss, Elizabeth Davies, David T. C. Howell, John Patel, Priti Turner, Mr Andrew (Monmouth) Huhne, rh Chris Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Davies, Glyn Hunter, Mark Pawsey, Mark Uppal, Paul Davies, Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Penning, Mike Vaizey, Mr Edward Davis, rh Mr David Hurd, Mr Nick Penrose, John Vara, Mr Shailesh de Bois, Nick James, Margot Percy, Andrew Vickers, Martin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Javid, Sajid Perry, Claire Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Walker, Mr Charles Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey Johnson, Joseph Pickles, rh Mr Eric Walker, Mr Robin M. Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Walter, Mr Robert Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, rh Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark Watkinson, Angela Drax, Richard Jones, Mr Marcus Pritchard, Mark Weatherley, Mike Duddridge, James Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, John Webb, Steve Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kelly, Chris Raab, Mr Dominic Wharton, James Dunne, Mr Philip Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Mr John Wheeler, Heather Ellis, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Reckless, Mark Whittaker, Craig Ellison, Jane Kwarteng, Kwasi Redwood, rh Mr John Wiggin, Bill Elphicke, Charlie Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williams, Mr Mark Eustice, George Lamb, Norman Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Roger Evans, Graham Lancaster, Mark Robertson, rh Hugh Williamson, Gavin Evans, Jonathan Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Willott, Jenny Evennett, Mr David Laws, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan Wilson, Mr Rob Fabricant, Michael Leadsom, Andrea Rosindell, Andrew Wright, Jeremy Farron, Tim Lee, Dr Phillip Rudd, Amber Wright, Simon Featherstone, Lynne Leslie, Charlotte Russell, Sir Bob Yeo, Mr Tim Field, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rutley, David Young, rh Sir George Fox,rhDrLiam Lewis, Dr Julian Francois, rh Mr Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian NOES Freeman, George Lidington, rh Mr David Abbott, Ms Diane Alexander, Heidi Fuller, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Abrahams, Debbie Ashworth, Jonathan Garnier, Mark Lloyd, Stephen Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Austin, Ian Gauke, Mr David Long, Naomi Gibb, Mr Nick Lopresti, Jack Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Bailey, Mr Adrian 975 Deferred Divisions5 DECEMBER 2012 Deferred Divisions 976

Bain, Mr William Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Jones, Susan Elan Phillipson, Bridget Balls, rh Ed Doran, Mr Frank Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Powell, Lucy Banks, Gordon Doughty, Stephen Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Reed, Steve Barron, rh Mr Kevin Doyle, Gemma Keeley, Barbara Reeves, Rachel Beckett, rh Margaret Dromey, Jack Kendall, Liz Reynolds, Emma Begg, Dame Anne Dugher, Michael Khan, rh Sadiq Riordan, Mrs Linda Benn, rh Hilary Durkan, Mark Lammy, rh Mr David Ritchie, Ms Margaret Benton, Mr Joe Eagle, Ms Angela Lavery, Ian Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Berger, Luciana Eagle, Maria Lazarowicz, Mark Rotheram, Steve Betts, Mr Clive Edwards, Jonathan Leslie, Chris Roy, Lindsay Blackman-Woods, Efford, Clive Lewis, Mr Ivan Ruane, Chris Roberta Elliott, Julie Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sarwar, Anas Blenkinsop, Tom Ellman, Mrs Louise Love, Mr Andrew Sawford, Andy Blomfield, Paul Esterson, Bill Lucas, Caroline Seabeck, Alison Blunkett, rh Mr David Evans, Chris Mactaggart, Fiona Sharma, Mr Virendra Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Farrelly, Paul Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sheerman, Mr Barry Brennan, Kevin Fitzpatrick, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Sheridan, Jim Brown, Lyn Flint, rh Caroline Malhotra, Seema Shuker, Gavin Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Flynn, Paul Mann, John Skinner, Mr Dennis Brown, Mr Russell Fovargue, Yvonne Marsden, Mr Gordon Slaughter, Mr Andy Bryant, Chris Francis, Dr Hywel McCabe, Steve Smith, Angela Buck, Ms Karen Gapes, Mike McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Nick Burden, Richard Gilmore, Sheila McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Owen Burnham, rh Andy Glass, Pat McDonald, Andy Spellar, rh Mr John Campbell, Mr Alan Glindon, Mrs Mary McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Straw, rh Mr Jack Campbell, Mr Ronnie Goodman, Helen McDonnell, John Stringer, Graham Caton, Martin Greatrex, Tom McGovern, Alison Stuart, Ms Gisela Champion, Sarah Green, Kate McGovern, Jim Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Clarke, rh Mr Tom Greenwood, Lilian McKechin, Ann Tami, Mark Clwyd, rh Ann Griffith, Nia McKenzie, Mr Iain Thomas, Mr Gareth Coaker, Vernon Gwynne, Andrew McKinnell, Catherine Thornberry, Emily Coffey, Ann Hamilton, Mr David Meacher, rh Mr Michael Timms, rh Stephen Connarty, Michael Hamilton, Fabian Meale, Sir Alan Trickett, Jon Cooper, rh Yvette Hanson, rh Mr David Miller, Andrew Turner, Karl Corbyn, Jeremy Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mitchell, Austin Twigg, Derek Crausby, Mr David Havard, Mr Dai Moon, Mrs Madeleine Twigg, Stephen Creagh, Mary Healey, rh John Morden, Jessica Umunna, Mr Chuka Creasy, Stella Hermon, Lady Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Vaz, rh Keith Cruddas, Jon Hillier, Meg Morris, Grahame M. Vaz, Valerie Cryer, John Hilling, Julie (Easington) Walley, Joan Cunningham, Alex Hodge, rh Margaret Mudie, Mr George Watts, Mr Dave Cunningham, Mr Jim Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Munn, Meg Whitehead, Dr Alan Cunningham, Sir Hood, Mr Jim Murphy, rh Paul Williams, Hywel Tony Hopkins, Kelvin Murray, Ian Williamson, Chris Curran, Margaret Howarth, rh Mr Nandy, Lisa Wilson, Phil Dakin, Nic George Nash, Pamela Winnick, Mr David Danczuk, Simon Hunt, Tristram Onwurah, Chi Winterton, rh Ms Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jamieson, Cathy Osborne, Sandra Rosie David, Wayne Jarvis, Dan Owen, Albert Woodcock, John Davidson, Mr Ian Johnson, rh Alan Pearce, Teresa Wright, David Davies, Geraint Johnson, Diana Perkins, Toby Wright, Mr Iain De Piero, Gloria Jones, Graham Denham, rh Mr John Jones, Helen Question accordingly agreed to. Docherty, Thomas Jones, Mr Kevan 253WH 5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 254WH

Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Westminster Hall (SNP): Will the hon. Lady give way?

Wednesday 5 December 2012 Gemma Doyle: As the hon. Gentleman has just come into the Chamber, I will make a wee bit of progress. The UK Government did have a plan to help people [MS NADINE DORRIES in the Chair] back into jobs, but the Work programme is not working. In the great fanfare around its launch, we were promised a revolution in getting people back to work that would Unemployment in Scotland transform the way people were supported, reducing the Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting benefits bill and getting people into jobs, while ensuring be now adjourned.—(Nicky Morgan.) value for money for the taxpayer. What a joke—instead it has been a comprehensive failure. The 3.8% success rate in Scotland—I am looking at the success rate over 9.30 am 14 months—falls some way behind the Government’s Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): minimum target. The success rate in West Dunbartonshire It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, is 1.7%, which means that less than two of every 100 people Ms Dorries. on the programme get a job. That is a shocking statistic. In West Dunbartonshire and in so many other constituencies in Scotland, unemployment is now a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland desperately serious challenge. This debate is for the (David Mundell): I welcome the opportunity to debate 218,000 people who are out of work in Scotland, but it the Work programme, but it is important that we do so is also about many more than that, as not just that on a factual basis. The hon. Lady is referring to outcomes number are affected. There are 218,000 families, so we in relation to the report on the Work programme, but can double, treble or possibly quadruple that to get to that is not the same as people moving into work or off the real figure of how many men, women and children benefits. Therefore, if we are to have a debate about are blighted by the scar of unemployment and the unemployment, that is what we should be discussing poverty that it creates. We have not seen the current and not outcomes in terms of the Work programme levels of long-term unemployment among men in Scotland report. since 1997, and long-term unemployment for women this year is among the highest since data have been available. Gemma Doyle: We could have a debate about what outcomes mean, but for my constituents and people in People should have the right to work—that is not Scotland, they mean getting a job and getting into asking for too much. On Monday it is human rights work. day, when the UN’s adoption of the universal declaration of human rights is celebrated. It is well worth reflecting What is just as shocking is the Government’s estimate on article 23(1) of that declaration, which states: that if the Work programme did not even exist, five in “Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, every 100 people would be getting a job. In an astonishing to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection act of irony, it is the first back-to-work programme against unemployment.” where people are more likely to get a job if they are not Unless something changes, all those people will continue on it. to be let down and their right to work will be ignored. Scottish people are being hammered. They are trapped Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): I welcome between two ideologies, by two sets of politicians who the fact that my hon. Friend has secured the debate this are too blinkered to lift their eyes and see what is really morning. Does she share my concern that the Scottish going on, and too stubborn to put aside their political Government are refusing to provide training programmes ambitions to do what is needed. for those who are currently on the Work programme, so On one hand, we have the Tory and Liberal Government people on the programme in Scotland are in a worse pursuing ideological cuts to jobs and services, cutting position than those south of the border? That is totally too far and too fast, and if this morning’s reports are unacceptable. correct, it sounds as though the austerity is going to be here with us for years to come. What is the result? Prices are rising faster than wages, our economy has flatlined Gemma Doyle: My hon. Friend makes a useful point, for two years and long-term unemployment is soaring. and we have seen exactly those problems in my constituency Raising taxes and cutting spending too far and too fast as well. is not working, which means that the Government are We have been told that things will get better, but we borrowing more this year, failing the one test that they have heard that one before, and we are already £400 million set themselves. On the other hand, we have a Scottish into this failing project. People do not want to hear that Government standing on the sidelines, wilfully refusing things will get better eventually. They want and need to use the levers that they have to help people back into proper help and support now. The truth is that the jobs. They have, in fact, cut jobs; in the public sector Government scrapped a successful job creation scheme. alone, John Swinney has cut more public sector jobs in Labour’s future jobs fund had real success in helping Scotland than the Chancellor of the Exchequer. people off benefits and back into the workplace. It However, I first want to look at what the UK created 10,000 jobs in Scotland and was a proven success, Government are—or are not—doing. but only weeks after the general election, one of the first 255WH Unemployment in Scotland5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 256WH

[Gemma Doyle] have been at times during the past two and a half years, we have a responsibility to do everything possible to things that the Government did was scrap it. Why was grow the existing businesses and to attract new ones. it scrapped? Just because the Labour party had set it In Aggreko and Polaroid, we have world-leading up—how spiteful. companies in West Dunbartonshire. We distil and bottle The report by the Centre for Economic and Social some of the finest whiskies in the world. We have Inclusion on the future jobs fund clearly set out the diverse manufacturing companies. Our tourism product scheme’s benefits: raising aspirations for work; moving is second to none. The Clyde shipyards are a stone’s people off long-term benefits; and helping people into throw away, and the Clyde naval base is on our doorstop. jobs. Some 101,000 Scottish young people are out of All of that is sandwiched between the fabulous city of work and the Government should be investing in Glasgow and the beautiful Loch Lomond. West programmes that work, not pumping money into Dunbartonshire is a great place to do business, and programmes that do not. there are real opportunities to be had, but we need the It was around this time last year that plans for the Government to change course. Youth Contract were first announced. Last month I There is an alternative to the Government’s cuts asked the Employment Minister, the hon. Member for agenda. There has to be, because we must jump-start Fareham (Mr Hoban), if the rumours are true that growth, get the economy moving again and create jobs. millions of pounds are sitting unallocated and helping The real jobs guarantee, which we have proposed and no one because the Government cannot get employers which would be funded by a tax on bankers’ bonuses, on board with the Youth Contract. It is worth bearing would guarantee a job to 110,000 young people. We in mind that almost 1,000 young people are out of work also want investment in infrastructure projects, a cut in in West Dunbartonshire. What was the Minister’s response VAT, a one-year national insurance tax break for every to me? He dismissed my concern and told me that small firm that takes on extra workers, a one-year cut in 20 young people in my constituency have had work VAT to 5% on home improvements and a properly experience through the YouthContract. That was 20 out resourced British investment bank to boost lending to of 1,000, and it was work experience, not a job. The small and medium-sized enterprises. only place that those young people can see employment No one claimed that the path to economic recovery is in the Minister’s job title, and he should hang his head was going to be easy after the collapse, but the Government in shame. knows and I am sure that the Minister knows that at the However, it does not matter how many schemes and time of the 2010 general election, our economy was programmes there are; if there are no jobs for people to recovering. Growth was up, and unemployment was going go into, it does not make a blind bit of difference. In down. We were on the right track, and the worst of it recent months, as many as 36 people have been chasing should have been over. From 1997 to 2008, unemployment every vacancy in West Dunbartonshire. In my constituency, in West Dunbartonshire more than halved. Yes, the as in many others, the challenge is not getting people financial crisis meant that it started to go back up, but ready for work; it is making sure that there are jobs for the action that the previous Labour Government were them to go into. That is why one of the first things that taking pushed it back into a downward trend. the newly elected Labour council in West Dunbartonshire That is where we were at the start of 2010, but when did earlier this year was to launch an ambitious programme the current Government took over, they took the wrong to create 1,000 new jobs and apprenticeships in our path. Their austerity measures have sent our economy area. However, we also need a larger, more robust and the job prospects of thousands of Scots spiralling private sector in West Dunbartonshire. Public service downwards. We have seen a double-dip recession and has always been valued in Scotland. We do not subscribe borrowing go up. Is it any wonder that people are to the Tories’ fixation on “Public, bad; private, good.”, wondering whether there is even still a plan to stick to nor do we accept their attempts to divide public and or whether the Government are making it all up on the private sector workers by placing a higher value on one hoof, as they go along? group. We can all hope that the Chancellor will change course later today, but I sincerely doubt that any of us Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady is right that there are should hold our breath on that. I want to know what plenty of complaints about the Conservative Government the Scotland Office will do about it. It beggars belief in Westminster, but will she put her ambitions in London that no Scotland Office Minister takes part in any of aside and do what is needed, as she said earlier—and so the key Cabinet Committees on the economy or on that the Scottish Government would be less hamstrung welfare reform. The Minister has a duty to ensure that by Westminster—and support moves to give more powers he is at the table and to force his way into those to Scotland, and also crucially, support the Scottish discussions, because Scots expect him to be there and to National party’s call for funding support for shovel-ready be making our case. projects? In Scotland, we thought that we would be protected from the worst of the Tories’ cuts, because one of the Gemma Doyle: If the hon. Gentleman bears with me, Labour Government’s greatest achievements was to establish he will hear that I do not believe that the Scottish the Scottish Parliament. It should have protected us Government are using the levers that they already have. from the worst excesses of a Conservative Government, If he is patient, I will come on to those issues. West but instead, 15 years on, we have a Scottish Government Dunbartonshire was named as the area of the UK least plagued by inaction, standing by and letting the Tories able to weather the Government’s cuts, partly because do their worst. of our high reliance on public sector jobs. When 40 people are chasing every vacancy in my constituency, as there Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Lady give way? 257WH Unemployment in Scotland5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 258WH

Gemma Doyle: I think that I shall make a bit of There is no logic, no help, no jobs—only politics. The progress. Scottish Government talk only of the limitations of The truth is that for the past three months, unemployment the current constitutional settlement. Let us imagine the in Scotland has continued to rise, while it has begun to position if there were another devolved nation in the UK, fall, albeit very slowly and with no guarantees, across one that could lead the way and would grab and use the rest of the UK. Unemployment rates in Scotland every power that it had to help its young people and are up compared to the UK average. I want to know wring every drop of help out of the levers of power that what the Scottish Government will do about that. Instead it had. It just so happens that, in Wales, Labour’s Welsh of using the powers that they have, the nationalist Government are doing exactly that through Jobs Growth Government are sticking their heads in the sand, kidding Wales. That scheme is providing jobs—not work experience themselves that it is all someone else’s fault and leaving or training—for unemployed 16 to 24-year-olds, paying the people of Scotland to suffer under the Tories once them the national minimum wage for a minimum of again. 25 hours a week and getting 4,000 young people a year back to work. I am told that most of those jobs are in the private sector. The scheme requires the positions to Mr MacNeil: Would the hon. Lady like to tell us be new, not replacements—helping Welsh businesses whether the former Labour Government introduced to grow even in this tough economic climate. any cuts at all? If that is good enough for young people in Wales, it should be good enough for young people in Scotland. Gemma Doyle: I think that the hon. Gentleman will However, the Scottish Government have one priority, find that we are discussing unemployment in Scotland. which they are pursuing relentlessly. I wish that it were I am setting out very clearly what the Scottish Government job creation, and I hope that they will look very carefully whom he supports are failing to do. We need to get the at the Welsh scheme. At the moment, however, they are economy back on track. There is no black-and-white pushing everything else aside to pursue separation, in answer, but the Scottish Government are failing desperately the hope that the people of Scotland will take a risk and the people of Scotland. If more of the hon. Gentleman’s cross their fingers that the grass will be greener on the colleagues were interested, perhaps they would have other side. turned up this morning. Only last week, someone from Scottish civic society The hon. Gentleman does not have to listen just to told me that their fear is that the Scottish Government me. The Scottish Chambers of Commerce is also very are standing back deliberately, letting things get worse concerned and has called on the Scottish Government and worse, all to boost the fading chances that people to use the levers at their disposal to stimulate business will back their flawed plans for separation come 2014. growth, because they clearly are not doing so at the At the heart of the SNP is a mistruth, the often repeated moment. mantra that separating from the rest of the UK will mean that all of Scotland’s problems will be solved. Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I congratulate I want to roll back the years slightly to 1968, when my hon. Friend on securing the debate. She is making a Mick McGahey, the National Union of Mineworkers very positive and passionate case. On the point made by Scotland Area president, argued at the Scottish Trades the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) Union Congress for a Scottish Parliament but against about the unemployment statistics in Scotland, my hon. separation. He said that his members had more in Friend is right to say that unemployment has fallen common with the London dockers, the Durham miners across the UK but risen by 7,000 in the last quarter in and the Sheffield engineers than they had ever had with Scotland. One reason for that is the number of people the “barons and landlord traitors”, as he called them, of who are leaving school and not going into employment Scotland. That is still true today, because someone or to university or college as a direct result of the unemployed in West Dunbartonshire has more in common thousands of college places cut by the SNP Government. with someone unemployed in the west midlands than with the speculators who caused the economic collapse, Gemma Doyle: My hon. Friend is spot-on. I have met even the Scottish ones. 17-year-olds in my constituency who were due to start a The workers movement has always been an international college course and thought that they had their future one. Constitutional wrangling will do nothing for the mapped out, but whose course was cut at a day’s notice 218,000 Scots who want a job. In fact, it may harm because of cuts to Clydebank college. My hon. Friend is business confidence. Last month, Rupert Soames, chief absolutely right. executive officer of Aggreko, which is one of Scotland’s My constituents have been particularly badly let down six FTSE 100 companies, the largest temporary power by the Scottish Government. Despite having one of the generator company in the world and based in Dumbarton, most challenging job markets in the whole UK, the Scottish said that the disadvantages of separation were Government have chosen to ignore us. In the initial “large, serious and…likely to arise” plans to set up enterprise zones in Scotland, West and would create Dunbartonshire did not even merit inclusion in the initial considerations. After snubbing our area, the Finance “a great deal of business disruption”. Secretary refused to meet me and local representatives Most worryingly, he said that business leaders were to discuss his decision. In March this year, when West unwilling to speak out because Dunbartonshire had the highest youth unemployment “over the past couple of years, anyone who has dared open their in Scotland, we were excluded from any support from mouths on the subject with views that are contrary to those of the the Scottish Government’s youth unemployment strategy SNP have brought down on themselves rains of bile and ire, fund. which is really very unpleasant.” 259WH Unemployment in Scotland5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 260WH

[Gemma Doyle] built up skills over time expected to move to another job, only to find when they are unemployed that the job He said that a lot of the language was very intimidatory. vacancies are simply not there. What a damning indictment on Scotland’s Government. The Government have to look at the figures. In I am sure that the bile and ire will be raining down on response to a parliamentary question, I was told that in me on Twitter later. In fact, I saw the hon. Member for October 2012, 355 full-time and 77 part-time vacancies Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) on his phone, so were advertised in the Jobcentre Plus office in my perhaps he has already been at it. We need the voice of constituency. The claimant count figures for the same business in this debate. We need them to be the job and period show that 3,432 people were claiming jobseeker’s wealth creators. We need a frank discussion, for the allowance in Kilmarnock and Loudoun. I also asked 218,000 families dealing with unemployment and for about the proportion of people aged 18 to 64 who are every person in Scotland. not in work or claiming benefits—those I describe as I am told that during a recent conference, the Deputy the “hidden unemployed” because they do not show up First Minister, who walked away from Scotland’s health in the JSA figures. The Office for National Statistics, as service to lead the nationalists’ referendum strategy, part of work undertaken for the annual population was asked about plans for welfare provision in a separate survey, estimates that 4,000 people were in that category Scotland. He reportedly said that it would take four or in Kilmarnock and Loudoun. The Minister is aware five years to work out the details. Scots do not button that many such estimates are qualified as likely to be up the back; we are not going to vote for a blank sheet imprecise or not reliable enough for what the ONS of paper. No answers on welfare, no attempt to drive describes as “practical purposes”. That estimate, however, down unemployment and no real dialogue with business— is one of those “considered acceptable”—to use the only an obsession with separation. We should not be in ONS’s term. a situation where almost a quarter of a million people Those in their late 40s and early 50s are too young to are out of work without any proper provision to help retire. Many have worked hard and built up savings, but them back into jobs. It just is not good enough. will have found themselves using up those savings to I want us to debate employment, not unemployment, keep their heads above water for a year or so and ensure and celebrate our world-leading sectors of energy, food that they are able to get back into the job market. They and drink—particularly whisky—tourism, life sciences, are now finding difficulties in paying their mortgage, electronics, defence and aerospace, and manufacturing. fuel bills and so on. Their savings have gone and the Right now, Scots are caught in a toxic storm of the grind of looking for work every day is extremely difficult. Tory-led Government’s cuts and the Scottish Government’s We will see many more such people coming to us in the refusal to help. It is time for them both to step up to the not-too-distant future. plate, put aside their obsessions and ideologies, and The number of those claiming JSA over 12 months in help the people of Scotland back into work. my constituency has gone up from 635 in October 2011 to 1,125 in October 2012. More people are unemployed 9.51 am for longer. The problem is at both ends: the very young, coming out of college and school looking for their first Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- job, and those at the other end of the spectrum. op): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Just in the past 48 hours we have heard of another West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) on a superb blow to jobs in Kilmarnock. I am not sure whether the speech, full of passion for not only her constituents but Minister is aware of it yet, but he knows of my concerns the people of Scotland more widely, particularly those over the MAHLE Group plant in Kilmarnock. To be facing unemployment. fair, Ministers responded the last time there were difficulties I want to take a few moments to highlight issues in in the plant. This week, we heard that there are likely to my constituency, some of which will be familiar to the be 82 redundancies, out of a work force of about 400, in Minister because I have raised them previously. Jobs the next three months. That is a significant blow to the and employment is the biggest issue that I hear about local economy in Kilmarnock and comes on the back of when I speak to people on the doorsteps or when they the inability to replace the lost Diageo jobs. come to see me. There are concerns about the number That may sound like a picture of doom and gloom, of young people who are unable to secure a job after but I do not want to sell Kilmarnock and my constituency they have completed a college course. We have a good as all doom and gloom, because it is far from it. There local college—Kilmarnock college—working extremely are businesses, many of which I met over the summer, hard to encourage more people to take up training that want to take on more employees, but find that opportunities, notwithstanding the difficulties of the some of the programmes the Government are offering, cuts to college funding in Scotland. In the not-too-distant such as Working Links or the Work programme, do not future, it will benefit from a new campus in Kilmarnock. necessarily deliver what they want as employers. They Many young people are supported through college courses tell me that schemes such as the national insurance and their hopes built up, only to have those hopes contribution holiday, are too difficult to access and are dashed once they finish college and cannot find employment not designed to meet their needs. I have raised that with in their chosen field. Ministers before. People coming to my surgeries are increasingly raising My constituency was not considered an area suitable concerns at the other end of the spectrum—people in to become an enterprise zone. It is great that North their late 40s or early 50s, who did not expect to have a Ayrshire and Arran, the next-door constituency, can job for life but certainly expected to be able to use their benefit from the scheme, but why could not the whole of skills to move from one job to another. They now find it Ayrshire have been looked at with a sensible, joined-up extremely difficult to find work. Many people who have approach, given the numbers of people who could 261WH Unemployment in Scotland5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 262WH commute to work within it? The Governments in both David Mundell: On that point, the hon. Lady may be Scotland and the UK could do more. At some stage, we aware that the Secretary of State has announced that have to rise above one person or one Government there will be a Scottish Employability Forum, which blaming another for the problem. The people expect us will bring together the Scottish Secretary, the Scottish to work together to do something about it. Government represented by John Swinney, the Convention I was disappointed with another answer to a of Scottish Local Authorities represented by Councillor parliamentary question I received—the Minister might Harry McGuigan from North Lanarkshire council and think that all I do is table parliamentary questions. Such a range of other stakeholders. That forum will address answers are important, because they get to the heart of exactly the issues highlighted by her and the hon. Member what the Government are doing and are part of how we for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle). It will ensure hold them to account. I tabled a question at the end of that the two Governments and local government, November: which was mentioned by the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire, actually work together; local government “To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and has an extremely important role. I therefore believe that Skills, when he last met Ministers in the Scottish Government to discuss the Scottish manufacturing and construction sectors; and there is significant progress. when he plans next to meet Ministers in the Scottish Government for such discussions.” Cathy Jamieson: I welcome what the Minister says. I was disappointed to get the response: However, to pick up the point made by my hon. Friend “There have been no recent discussions at ministerial level the Member for West Dunbartonshire, for many people about these specific issues with the Scottish Government, and currently out of work, the issue is not employability, none are planned”. because they are employable and are desperate to be What does that tell us, and what signal does that send to employed; the simple problem is that the jobs are not the people of Scotland who are out of work and desperately there. want to work, and to those in the manufacturing sector To return to the figures, with some 366 people chasing who want to continue their work and take advantage of every vacancy in East Ayrshire, one person gets the job, export as well as domestic markets? However, the answer while the other 365 are employable, want to work and also stated that are desperate to get that start. They are desperate either “BIS officials are in regular contact with officials in the Scottish to get their foot in the door by having a first job or to Government on a wide-range of issues affecting the manufacturing return to work to support their family. That has to be and construction sectors.”—[Official Report, 27 November 2012; considered, and the question is how firms can be encouraged Vol. 554, c. 298W.] to take people on and to expand. There is still more that May I gently ask the Minister to use his good offices to both the Scottish Government and the UK Government get people together in a room at ministerial level to start could do, and they should look to build on the successful such talks, and to begin to look at what more can be companies that exist and, wherever possible, to maintain done in Scotland to support the positive initiatives that and save jobs. In that context, I hope that the Minister exist? will offer his support for ways of helping to retain the The Minister may be aware of the Entrepreneurial jobs currently under threat in my constituency. Spark—ESpark—initiative, which both UK Ministers I have probably taken up my fair share of time. I and some Scottish Ministers have been keen to champion, welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. I again which encourages people to start their own businesses. make the plea that both Governments should recognise Several very innovative projects have arisen as a result, that this issue is about people’s real-life situations; it is as I have seen in Ayrshire. Businesses that have been not a political football to be battered back and forth. started up ought to be enabled to grow and to take on other employees, so what more can the two Governments do to ensure that? Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Lady give way?

Ann McKechin: I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments, Cathy Jamieson: That is probably exactly what the and she has made some good points. Does she agree hon. Gentleman is about to do; I hope not. that both Governments should concentrate on procurement, because many local businesses find it difficult to work through complex procurement systems? The Work Mr MacNeil: I, too, hope that we find some agreement. programme system is one, and the Forth road bridge—for Does the hon. Lady agree that it might help if the which most of the steel will be manufactured in China—is Scottish Government had capital borrowing powers to another example of local businesses being unable to enable them to stimulate the economy and create jobs in compete because of the design of the procurement Scotland? process. Cathy Jamieson: The hon. Gentleman always takes Cathy Jamieson: My hon. Friend makes an important an opportunity to have a moan about what the Scottish point. This may come up later in the debate—I am not Government do not have or cannot do, rather than to sure—but the whole issue of the Scottish Government’s look at the levers and powers that they have. The intentions on procurement, and those of the UK important question is: what can the Scottish Government Government, is important. Will the Minister give us do? They have plenty of powers at their disposal, as information about how the two Governments are working do the UK Government. It is for both of them to together to ensure that tendering processes are available work together, and that is what I hope comes out of this to local firms? morning’s debate. 263WH Unemployment in Scotland5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 264WH

10.5 am the Scottish National party’s inaction and incompetence in Holyrood. I notice that the hon. Member for Na Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): It is a pleasure h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) has just left. to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries, and it is good to see you back out of the jungle. I welcome the The coalition Government are running out of excuses. opportunity to speak in this important debate, and I Their flagship welfare-to-work programme has failed to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West get people into proper jobs. Under the Work programme, Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) on securing it. firms and charities are paid to find jobs for the long-term unemployed, but as my hon. Friend the Member for This debate is being held on the day that the Chancellor West Dunbartonshire said, only 3.8%—four in every 100— of the Exchequer delivers his autumn statement, which of Scottish people on the programme succeeded in will highlight the true scale of his poor performance in gaining a job for six months or more, which is well below the period of high unemployment, weak growth, rising target. borrowing and declining wages that is gripping the nation. Even the outgoing Governor of the Bank of Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): It gives me no England has warned that the UK faces a pleasure to say that the Dundee city council area has the “rather unappealing combination of a subdued recovery, with worst record for creating jobs under the Work programme. inflation remaining above target for a while”. The figure currently stands at 1.4%. We obviously have The latest quarterly inflation report indicates that the the separatists in power in Edinburgh and in Dundee. UK could be stuck in a low-growth environment, with When can we expect them to stop saying that the big economic problems in the eurozone and the rest of the bad boy in Westminster did it and ran away? world continuing to have an impact. The Ernst and Young ITEM Club report published Graeme Morrice: Indeed. I certainly concur with my on Monday states that Scotland’s overall output decline hon. Friend’s comment. I will be coming to that same of 4% over the past four years puts it on a par with the point shortly. Let me emphasise again that the Work troubled Spanish economy, and that Scotland’s economy programme is a miserable failure because the Government is unlikely fully to recover until 2016. This year will be are not taking seriously their responsibility to create the third out of five in which the Scottish economy has jobs, and what they have done has been exposed as shrunk. The report also predicts growth of just 0.7% worse than doing nothing. next year, which was “well below normal” and lower The figures show that 101,000 young people are out than the expected UK figure. It estimates that 60,000 jobs of work in Scotland and, at 23.5%, they are higher than will be shed in the Scottish public sector between the in the UK. That means that close to half of all unemployed start of the 2008 financial crisis and the end of its people in Scotland are between the ages of 16 and 24. If forecast in 2015. we deprive such a substantial number of young people of the benefits of work, we will once again pay the price Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): It is a pleasure to for many generations to come. They are David Cameron’s serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. lost generation. With such high levels of youth Is my hon. Friend aware that the local government unemployment, education and training are crucial to in Fife is investing £5 million in creating modern enhancing young people’s skills and improving their apprenticeships, which is an extension of the jobs fund? chances of finding a job. Many young people I speak to in my constituency express the view that Government, Graeme Morrice: Yes, and I welcome that initiative and decision makers more generally, have abandoned by Labour-led Fife council. Others that have been them. mentioned—initiated by Labour-led local authorities in The default position of Alex Salmond and the SNP Scotland—are clearly to be welcomed. Government at Holyrood is to blame the situation on The matters I was referring to represent yet more the London parties, and that is now wearing thin. It miserable news for Scotland, and underline the need to would be a tragedy for Scotland, and for the UK as a address business growth and harness the job-creation whole, if the devastating impact of the economic slump potential of our small and medium-sized businesses as on hard-working people, families and communities, is a top priority. It is a cause of concern that the Scottish made worse by the unholy trinity of David Cameron, unemployment rate is 8.1%, which is higher than that of George Osborne and Alex Salmond failing dismally to the UK. Some 218,000 people are now out of work in do anything meaningful on jobs for Scots. Scotland. The UK and Scottish Governments must In contrast, Labour has a clear, coherent five-point share responsibility for those continually disappointing plan for growth and jobs to help struggling families and figures. As a result of their decisions, this is a really bad support small businesses. Increasing employment will time for families who are worried about their jobs and only come from business growth, so both Governments their children’s futures, and are struggling with higher must boost capital investment, and the UK Government food prices and energy bills. must incentivise business lending, to enable firms to In my constituency, long-term unemployment rose by create more jobs. The Government can start to address 380% in the past year, which is the worst figure since the the matter in Scotland, and across the UK, by using the general election. That is truly depressing news for young £3 billion windfall generated from the sale of the 4G mobile people and women, and for the 1,700 workers who are phone spectrum. losing their jobs at the Hall’s of Broxburn meat processing I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to plant and for the 50 employees at Vion’s headquarters offer at the end of this debate. The Government must in Livingston. People in Scotland are not only falling take responsibility and come forward with an action victim to the failed policies of this bungling Tory-led and plan to tackle unemployment and give Scotland’s people Lib Dem coalition in Westminster, but are suffering from the opportunities that they need to thrive. 265WH Unemployment in Scotland5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 266WH

10.13 am Jim McGovern: My own daughter, Jillian McGovern, is one of my hon. Friend’s constituents, and she was Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ made redundant earlier this year. Thankfully, she has Co-op): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member managed to find a new job, with no assistance whatever for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) for giving from the Department for Work and Pensions. Does my Members an opportunity to discuss an issue of such hon. Friend agree that the DWP Work programme great importance. Like other colleagues, I will concentrate seems to be drastically unsuccessful? on issues that relate to my constituency. Edinburgh North and Leith does not have the extreme levels of high unemployment that are suffered by some other Mark Lazarowicz: The figures clearly speak for constituencies. It normally comes somewhere in the themselves. I am glad that my hon. Friend’s daughter middle of the UK figures. As unemployment goes up in has found employment. Of course, one of the tragedies the UK, so, too, does it in my constituency, and it stays is that many staff in the DWP are working hard to try roughly in the middle range. However, as with all our to make the scheme work, but are unable to do so. We constituencies, and indeed the country as a whole, the all know that when there is a general backdrop of high broad picture does not always accurately reflect the unemployment and low economic activity, there is only position on the ground. It would not surprise many so much that can be done. Members in the Chamber to hear that my constituency Some things are being done by various levels of has areas that are among the richest in not just Scotland Government. I am pleased to say that the Edinburgh but the UK as a whole, and also areas that come near city council, through the Edinburgh Guarantee scheme, the top of the deprivation and unemployment rates in has been active not just in itself as an authority but in Edinburgh and, in some cases, in Scotland as a whole. the private sector, encouraging the provision of real Youth unemployment has risen sharply in my jobs and opportunities for young people. In the current constituency. A year or so ago, we found that we had year, Edinburgh city council is offering 50 new the highest rate in Scotland of 16 to 17-year-olds not in apprenticeships, 18 new training places and 50 further education or employment. My constituency has certainly opportunities with council contractors. It has been suffered from recent events in line with the rest of the encouraging private sector employers to take up that UK. I suspect that we are also experiencing the phenomenon approach as well, with some success. Of course Edinburgh to which my hon. Friend the Member for West has a Labour-led council, which may have something to Dunbartonshire referred of unemployment not really do with the success, but it certainly shows what can be showing up in the figures. That is perhaps more true in done by local government, at city or district level, to my constituency than in any other. I strongly suspect respond to the current difficulties. that underemployment is a major factor, with people Clearly, a local authority can only do so much, so who want to work full time finding themselves working what we need is a change in the national picture and the part time because there is no alternative. national direction. We need a change of course, such as I am aware that many people in my constituency are the one that my hon. Friend the Member for West self-employed. There are those who were on contracts Dunbartonshire referred to in her opening contribution. to work in the financial services sector or who were in We also need action at Scottish level. some ways linked to it. They are still self-employed, but One of the ways in which we can provide real jobs the amount of work they are getting has dropped and use the current economic downturn to provide a dramatically, as has their income. Although this is difficult way out and a way forward for the future is, of course, to work out from the figures, I suspect that that is a to invest in infrastructure projects. Both the UK particularly severe problem in my constituency. Government and the Scottish Government have been The house building figures are also low, showing a slow off the mark in coming up with new infrastructure dramatic lack of activity in my constituency. House projects to meet the needs of the time. I have lost count building is always a sign of activity in the economy as a of the number of times that this Government—the UK whole, and the latest figures from the National House- Government—have announced new infrastructure schemes Building Council show that the number of new home and projects, and processes and mechanisms to try to starts in my constituency over the last quarter was just bring jobs into the sector. I accept that things are slowly eight, and that is in a constituency and a city where the happening. However, it is two and a half years in now, population is still growing. The population of Edinburgh and we have seen hardly any new projects and hardly is now almost half a million; it has grown by almost any new jobs on the ground as a result of the UK 20% over the past 10 years and it is projected to grow Government’s limited measures to promote infrastructure still further. We certainly would not expect such a low investment. number of new home starts if the economy was going I also have to say that the Scottish Government have well, and it clearly is not. been slow off the mark. Of course, their powers are not We have heard from colleagues about the lack of as wide as some of their members would like, but there success of the Work programme. For me, people getting is a lot that they could do with their existing taxation into a job at the end of it is a pretty good indicator of powers and spending programmes to boost jobs and whether the scheme is working. Again, the number of infrastructure in Scotland. people in my constituency who have found work is not I am pleased that the Scottish Government’s Cabinet as low as elsewhere—my hon. Friend the Member for Secretary has recently presented the UK Government West Dunbartonshire referred to a figure of 2%. In my with a list of “shovel-ready” projects, as he described constituency, it is 3% of those over 25. It seems that them. I think that he could have been preparing that list people who go on the programme are getting work at a a bit earlier on in the scheme of things, but nevertheless lower rate than those who do not, which does not sound it has now come forward. I know that one of the major like a recipe for success. schemes on that list is for investment of more than 267WH Unemployment in Scotland5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 268WH

[Mark Lazarowicz] The difficulty is that our two largest employers are the local authority and the local health board, and the £100 million to develop the port of Leith in my constituency, impact of the cuts that we have seen in the last few which will be important not only for Leith—obviously—but years, both under the coalition Government in Westminster for the whole Scottish economy. That is certainly good, and under the SNP Government in Edinburgh, is really and I hope that in his response to the debate the Minister breathtaking. It is not a surprise to those of us here in will tell us that he and his colleagues in the Scotland Westminster Hall today, but it may well be to those Office—or rather, his colleague, the Secretary of State—are outwith here, that we actually saw cuts happening in lobbying actively to ensure that Scotland gets its fair Scotland in our local area in the public sector at least share of the infrastructure investments that come forward, two years before there was any cut in block grant to the and that those investments are put into effect as soon as Scottish Government. So it was all happening under the possible. guise of this great nationalist Government, and quite That is the key point—we need action now. We do frankly it was destroying the base for jobs and any sort not need promises of infrastructure investment or activity of growth in my local area. two, three, four years down the line. We do not want In October 2010, there were 2,691 jobseeker’s allowance people to be promised training places with no jobs to go claimants in Dumfries and Galloway; in October 2011, into at the end of the training period. We need a change there were 3,042; and in October 2012 the figure had of course, and we need the measures that the Government grown to 3,205. As for the long-term unemployed, there have promised, particularly on infrastructure, to be put are now just over 900 people who are long-term unemployed into effect as soon as possible, so that we see some in Dumfries and Galloway, which is the highest level urgency from the Government in a way that, frankly, we since 1999. Those long-term unemployed people, many have not seen in the past two and a half years. of whom are young people aged between 18 and 25, find themselves in a desperate plight. Again, it is unfortunate that the sole SNP Member 10.21 am who was present earlier—the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar—has now left, because we even had a Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): situation earlier in the year when one of our local Thank you very much, Ms Dorries. It is a pleasure to regional list MSPs, a lady by the name of Joan McAlpine, serve under you this morning. decided to have a jobs summit. [Interruption.] A sharp I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member intake of breath—no further comments please. She for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) on securing decided to hold a jobs summit and she introduced to the this debate. I think that many of us had suspected that local community the Minister responsible for youth we would have seen the full ranks of the Scottish unemployment, a lady called Angela Constance. We National party here in Westminster Hall this morning. have heard nothing since. That “summit” was a talking Instead, they sent the normal token gesture in—the shop and I regret to say that I had to force my way in to hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil)—and see what was actually going on. It was all window he has fled the scene of the crime already. That is no dressing, with nothing to show for it. help whatsoever. I know that colleagues have already mentioned the All too often we hear from the SNP about “shovel-ready” future jobs fund and how some people have said that it projects; indeed, they have been mentioned again in was not working. In fact, the Prime Minister himself Westminster Hall this morning. I can tell everyone here said that it was today that there are hundreds of young people in my “expensive, badly targeted and did not work.”—[Official Report, constituency who would desperately love to get on the 19 January 2011; Vol. 521, c. 832.] end of a shovel and be gainfully employed, because that So, at a very early stage of this coalition Government, is the thing that they really want to do and the inability the decision was made to scrap the future jobs fund. do it causes deep depression in households and That left many of us somewhat bewildered and confused, communities, which is something that, as a nation, we because not that many months beforehand officials in can ill afford. When I say “a nation”, I do not just mean the Department for Work and Pensions were saying Scotland; I mean the entire UK. Youngpeople desperately that it was a good programme and it was working. want to be out there being gainfully employed. I apologise to colleagues if I am about to divulge In about three hours’ time, we will have heard the information that they are already aware of, but only last bulk of what the Chancellor has had to say today. I do month the DWP published a document entitled, “Impacts not hold out many hopes, but I am open to persuasion and Costs and Benefits of the Future Jobs Fund”. It and I am ready to be surprised as he makes his autumn said: statement. However, my area is a rural area. I will “Under the baseline assumptions, the FJF programme is estimated mention figures this morning and I apologise to the to result in a net benefit to participants.” Minister before I start mentioning them, because those That was estimated at approximately £4,000 per participant. figures are for Dumfries and Galloway; they are figures In addition, the net benefit to employers was estimated not only for my constituency and my backyard but for at approximately £6,850 per participant; the net cost to part of his backyard as well. The reality is that although the Exchequer was estimated at approximately £3,100 per the unemployment figures in our area are desperately participant; and the net benefit to society was estimated high, he and I both know that our local economy is at approximately £7,750 per participant. I am no based around small and medium-sized enterprises, and economist—quite frankly, I am not an expert in anything— there are enough SMEs that if all of them took on one but I would have thought that those figures showed extra person we would just about wipe out unemployment some sign of a good return for the investment that was in my local area. being put in. 269WH Unemployment in Scotland5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 270WH

I visited a number of young people who were working while the other is preoccupied with the constitution and on a future jobs fund programme, along with my hon. a desire to march into a dreamland of independence, Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) although what Scots people have at the moment is a who is sitting beside me now and who was a Minister at nightmare of unemployment. the time. We jointly visited a group of young people Youth unemployment is at crisis levels. What message and they were delighted at the opportunity that they does that send to our young people, who need work and were being given to work. Suddenly, however, the new who want to work? They now find that their only Government deemed that the future jobs fund was a opportunity of finding work is probably to leave Scotland, failure. and our numbers are diminishing across communities. I could go on at length, but I will not because I know I want to spend a bit of time contrasting those issues that there is another colleague, my hon. Friend the with what has been happening in my constituency. Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie), who wants to Inverclyde is a speck of light on the dark map of speak. However, we have seen the cuts in the numbers of unemployment that is Scotland. Believe it or not, Inverclyde nurses and midwives in our areas, and the cut in police has actually managed to reduce its unemployment numbers. support staff in our areas, and quite frankly that is There are several reasons for that, which I will go into down to a combination of the coalition Government later, but it is also thanks to Labour—a Labour MP, a and the SNP. So, if we are talking about crime, they are Labour MSP and a Labour-led council—which has partners in crime in what has happened in my area. focused on, and been delivering, jobs for the people of It is not that Labour does not have an answer. I am Inverclyde. sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), the shadow Chancellor, will Two years ago, the council took the brave decision to make his point this morning, and it is about the 4G mobile go it alone and fund the future jobs fund, which the spectrum and the £3 billion that can come from that, Government cut when they came to power. That will be and it is also about tax on bankers’ bonuses. Those are increasingly difficult as the council’s budget is squeezed, not just warm words: this money can be used constructively, and this year’s settlement for local government looks to do something for our country and for the unemployed. bleak indeed. In the past, Inverclyde was the second-best On the back of some of that, we could have 100,000 jobs performer across the UK on the future jobs fund, with a for young people and bring forward investment. success rate that saw 90% of people going into jobs. In terms of young people not in education, employment or The country has been here before. When the Labour training, we have achieved single figures, and we would party came to power in 1997, we gave a commitment to hope to achieve zero this year, although, as I said, it the people of this country that we would use a windfall looks as though local government funding will, levy on the privatised utilities to create the new deal; we unfortunately, mean that that target is out of our reach. carried that commitment through, and it worked for the benefit of unemployed people. I just hope the Chancellor We hear much about Government contracts with jobs will listen a little today to the shadow Chancellor and to and apprenticeships written into them, but that is nothing some of the views expressed in this debate. new in Inverclyde, where we have had such things for many years. We set ourselves an ambitious school estates Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab) rose— reprovision programme, and we wrote into the contracts the need to provide for local labour and a number of Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Order. Mr McKenzie, apprenticeships if those contracts were to be won, and I will call the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman at that was very successful. By 2014, our school-building 10.40 am, so if you take just 10 minutes, that would be programme will mean that across Inverclyde all schools great. will be new or refurbished, and that will bring many jobs. 10.30 am Just last week, I brought together 40 employers, the Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): Thank you, jobcentre and unemployed people in Inverclyde at a Ms Dorries. It is a pleasure to serve under your jobs fair. Our target is to ask employers to give the best chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member possible start to someone in Inverclyde in the new year, for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) on securing by giving them a job. this important debate. Along with the local MSP, I have been highlighting I would love to be here debating employment levels our area’s ability to play a part in renewable energy and in Scotland, but, unfortunately, we are here to debate wind turbine construction. We have the skills and the Scotland’s unemployment figures, which are, quite frankly, infrastructure, but, unfortunately, we do not have the a national disgrace. It seems that when the Conservatives backing of the Scottish Government, who have been get into power, they look on unemployment as a price extremely unhelpful, cutting our regeneration projects worth paying, and as something that has to exist to to zero next year, which will eliminate any progress on balance employment. We know, however, that it does our waterfront development. They have also given only not have to exist. a small amount of support to our schools programme—just The Scottish unemployment rate is above the UK £5 million, as opposed to the £80 million we were given average, and Scotland is a black spot of unemployment when Labour was in power in Scotland, which allowed on the UK map. What a message that sends to the rest us to create many jobs and regenerate Inverclyde. of the UK and beyond, especially when we are trying to In the 2011 by-election, the First Minister and many attract business and inward investment to Scotland. others visited Inverclyde, telling us that good times were Why are these things happening? The UK Government around the corner and that jobs were there for us—if and the Scottish Government are failing the people of we just voted a particular way, the jobs would emerge. Scotland. One is preoccupied with austerity and cuts, The First Minister promised us so much, but absolutely 271WH Unemployment in Scotland5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 272WH

[Mr Iain McKenzie] Long-term unemployment also contributes to an ever- increasing welfare spend. Some 38,395 people in Scotland nothing has materialised—evidently, we did not vote have been claiming jobseeker’s allowance for longer the way he wished. Two hundred Scots are losing their than six months, which is in contrast to fewer than jobs every day.We are facing an unemployment emergency, 8,000 in 2008. Even more worryingly, the number of and the lack of action by either Government is resulting Scots claiming JSA for at least 12 months has grown by in increasing unemployment levels, which look to be the 198% since 2008. worst for many years. Something has gone seriously wrong with the Many of my hon. Friends have mentioned how drastically Government’s unemployment strategy, and they plainly ineffectual the Work programme is and that it has had have no ideas about how to bring jobs and growth to no impact whatever on unemployment levels. Its lack of Scotland. The failure of the Work programme has success in my constituency is such that it has placed contributed to an increase in welfare spend of about only 1% of people in employment. Goodness me, I £20 billion more than expected. The priorities are all wrong, could have done that myself over a weekend and saved as can be seen in the Chancellor casting 100,000 16 to the Government a fortune. That was a saving that could 24-year-old Scots on to the dole, while giving a tax cut have been made. to millionaires. Labour Members believe we can create jobs using a To try to tackle that £20 billion overspend in the tax on bankers’ bonuses and a windfall from 4G. We welfare budget, significant changes will come into force can put people to work and give young people hope shortly, and they will have a devastating impact on again; if the Government really want to create jobs, Scotland. It has been calculated that, due to the welfare they can. Our constituents need and want work, and changes, £114.8 million will be removed from the Scottish young people need hope for the future. We should not economy in Glasgow alone, and £6 million will be let another generation be sacrificed to unemployment. removed from the economy of Clackmannanshire, which is Scotland’s smallest county and is in my constituency. 10.37 am I have no doubt that that cash grab will affect local economies, and it will, according to the Fraser of Allander Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): I Institute, lead to a further 2,000 or so job losses and—guess welcome you to the Chair, Ms Dorries. It is a pleasure what?—an even greater demand for welfare. to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma To kick-start the economy and create jobs, the Doyle) on securing the debate and on tackling head-on Government should, as has been said, take on board the vital issue of unemployment in Scotland. Labour’s proposal to put revenues from the 4G spectrum We have heard throughout the debate that the people auction to good use. Scottish Labour at Holyrood of Scotland are being failed by two Governments, in would use any Barnett consequentials from the growth Westminster and in Holyrood. The coalition can barely spending on key investment priorities, such as house keep itself together, never mind effectively govern the building, which I feel extremely strongly about. With country, and the SNP is entirely consumed by the nearly 40 years’ experience in the construction industry, independence referendum, which means that it is not I am dismayed to see the stagnation from which the tackling the real problems Scots face in their everyday industry is suffering, but that is no surprise when the lives. With 218,000 Scots unemployed, few issues are Government are cutting capital investment by 21% by more important for both Governments to tackle, or 2014. indeed more important for the people of Scotland, but The Government seem to be failing to grasp that with our priority does not, sadly, appear to be the priority of every £1 invested in construction the economy benefits either Government. by £3—those numbers have been confirmed by independent The coalition’s ill-fated Work programme, which we economic research. The promise of a threefold return have heard about this morning, has got only four out of should be incentive enough for the Government to every 100 Scots back to work. That figure is really invest in the industry. There are few better ways to startling and lays bare the Government’s complete failure kick-start economic growth than with a national house- to get to grips with the unemployment crisis. It is also building scheme and support for construction. There alarming that the Scottish unemployment rate is 8.1%, are few better ways to deliver skills in great numbers which is higher than the 7.8% UK average. As a result than through investment in the construction industry, of the bleak economic outlook, underemployment has and there are few better ways to impact positively on also been on the increase. This Government simply our high streets than through investment in housing cannot get Britain working, and as a result they cannot and construction. get its economy growing again. I want to pick up on some of the points that have Youth unemployment is a particular concern. It is been made this morning. That there are no Scotland another statistic that is higher in Scotland than in the Office Ministers on key Cabinet Committees that focus UK as a whole, at 23.5% compared with 21.7%, with on growth, such as the Growth Implementation Committee, nearly half of all unemployed Scots being aged 16 to is indeed a great worry for Scotland and, I imagine, a 24—a tragic proportion, of which the Minister should great embarrassment to the current residents of the be ashamed. If action is not taken soon to tackle that, Scotland Office. I share the opinion expressed by my those young people will become, as one of my hon. hon. Friends that the scrapping of the future jobs fund, Friends has said, Cameron’s lost generation, and Scotland which has been recognised by the Centre for Economic will be less able to take full advantage of opportunities and Social Inclusion for its achievements, was a mistake, that come our way in the future, which would be a total and there is a stark contrast between that recognition and and utter disgrace. the failure of the current programmes. 273WH Unemployment in Scotland5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 274WH

My hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire of all unemployed Scottish workers are aged 16 to 24 is talked about how the Scottish National party has cut a damning statistic, but neither the coalition nor Alex more than 30,000 public sector jobs, but I want to take Salmond seems to be focusing on that as a major issue. this opportunity to make the Chamber aware of remarks In light of those extremely worrying trends, the made by Keith Brown, the transport Minister in the Governments in Westminster and Holyrood need to Scottish Parliament, who, when pressed recently in a take positive action, and I want to make a brief remark debate with me on what would happen to UK civil about shovel-ready projects. We are all in favour of service jobs in an independent Scotland, said: moving such projects into job creation, but if we do that “I was waiting for the day when someone from Labour came in Scotland in the way that the Forth road bridge forward with a positive reason for independence and perhaps project was handled, with all the contracts being given we’ve just heard it—a reduction in the number of civil servants in to overseas companies, keeping people in work in Spain, Scotland”. Poland, Switzerland and Germany rather than in Scotland, I am afraid that if that lot have their way there will be there is something fundamentally wrong with the many more public service job losses in Scotland. procurement process, as we have heard this morning. We have heard what Labour is doing where Labour is I urge the Chancellor to get a grip of his welfare in power. We have heard about what Labour is doing in policies and to understand their impact on our economy, West Dunbartonshire, in Fife, in Edinburgh, in Inverclyde and to get a work programme that does what it says on and in Wales, and all those efforts are to be applauded. I the tin. The priorities of both Governments need to also want to draw attention to the Glasgow guarantee change from the narrow agenda of cuts and separation, made by Scottish Labour in power in Glasgow city and to focus on the real tragedies occurring in our cities, council, which has resulted in a 4.4% fall in the number towns and villages. It is the Scottish people who can deliver of young people claiming JSA in the past two years. growth into the Scottish economy if the Governments The real point here is to compare that achievement with of Holyrood and Westminster provide them with the that of the Minister and his Government colleagues, right tools and opportunities. To do anything less which is a 6.9% rise over the same period. demonstrates that the priorities of the Governments are My hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire not those of the Scottish people. referred to what I can only liken to attempted bullying 10.48 am by the Scottish Government in respect of separation, and I think we all agree that such activity is reprehensible. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Indeed, over the past few days Mr Salmond has been (David Mundell): It is a pleasure to serve under your defending the right to free speech in the press while at chairmanship, Ms Dorries. Youare certainly the Member the same time appearing hellbent on stifling it in the of Parliament my constituents most often ask me about, Scottish business world. and I am sure they will be delighted to learn that you have chaired the debate today. Many issues are hitting Scotland hard at this time, with 218,000 people out of work, a Work programme I congratulate the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire that does not work, a rising welfare bill, welfare cuts (Gemma Doyle) on securing this important debate. that will increase the demands on welfare, a lack of Based on what has been said I feel that there might be growth in the economy, 16 to 24-year-olds being condemned little that we agree on, but I do agree on the importance to a future on the dole, a growth in underemployment, of having a debate such as this here at Westminster, to rising energy costs, a fixation in the Scottish Government focus on issues that are the responsibility of the UK with separation, and a lack of investment from Holyrood Government, and also on the importance of Members in further education for our young people. from Scotland holding the Government to account for their policies and actions in Scotland. Anas Sarwar: My hon. Friend mentioned the fixation I find it disappointing that the Scottish National with independence. Is he aware of figures out this week party has not sought to contribute to this debate, other that show that corporation tax in the Republic of Ireland than through a few random interventions. I do not want is 12.5%, with unemployment at 15%, and in Northern to be in the position that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock Ireland the figures are 24% and 8% respectively? Does and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) spoke about, of blaming that not show that the SNP’s policy of cutting corporation the other Government—the Government in Scotland—for tax is incoherent and does not guarantee jobs? everything that is going wrong, which would be to adopt the reality of Alex Salmond’s “plan McB”: to claim credit for everything that is good and to blame the Westminster Gordon Banks: I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Government for everything that is bad. Friend. There is a lot that the SNP says in Holyrood that does not bear true when put under the microscope. Opposition Members, other than the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun, to be fair, chose to use The Governments in Holyrood and Westminster are their contributions to blame both Governments for not focusing on policies to address unemployment. everything that is happening. As usual—I had no They are too distracted with their own agendas of cuts expectation otherwise—they took no responsibility whatever and separation. That is why one in 10 Scots are working for the catastrophic state in which they left the UK fewer hours than they would wish to, which is contributing economy when they left office in 2010. Indeed, we may to a rise in in-work poverty. It is why unemployment has hear once and for all an apology from the shadow increased by 3.3% since 2008, and it is why 80,000 people Chancellor today for the state of the economy at that in Scotland have been unemployed for more than 12 months. time, which would be good. It is also why, in the past year, long-term unemployment has risen by 3% in the UK but by 11% in Scotland, and Mr Russell Brown: I recognise that the Minister and it is why economic inactivity among disabled people his colleagues are very good at talking about the mess stands at more than 49% in Scotland. That nearly half that they were left, but will he share with the Chamber 275WH Unemployment in Scotland5 DECEMBER 2012 Unemployment in Scotland 276WH

[Mr Russell Brown] David Mundell: No, I want to deal with the issue of Jillian McGovern and address the concerns raised by what the black hole was? What was that debt? If we the hon. Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern) remove from that debt what was provided to support about the Department for Work and Pensions. I would the banks and the UK economy, how big really was that be pleased to hear more about what did not happen in black hole? that regard, because I have a high regard for the DWP’s work in Scotland. Every single day in Scotland, the David Mundell: There was a black hole because, for a DWP deals with an average of 1,500 new job vacancies; significant period of time, the previous Government conducts some 7,000 jobcentre adviser interviews; receives were spending more than they brought in. That is the more than 82,000 searches for Jobcentre Plus job vacancies; reality, and the hon. Gentleman cannot pretend otherwise. and helps an average of more than 1,000 people move Today we have heard various versions of the plan into work. The DWP is playing an important role, and Labour now has to turn the economy around, but the if any Member has examples of that not working for core of that plan remains more spending, more borrowing their constituents, we want to know about them. and more debt—exactly the same prescription that brought I have asked for a report on why Dundee city council the country to its current state. appears at the very bottom of the report on the Work programme, and it is important to understand that, but Graeme Morrice: Is it not the case that the current I want to try to dispel two myths. The shadow Minister Government are borrowing far in excess of what they sought to perpetuate the myth that, somehow, the youth are spending? Indeed, based on their original projections, unemployment issues are a direct result of this they are borrowing substantially more than they anticipated. Government’s policies. Youthunemployment is a serious issue about which we should all be concerned. As the Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Order. We are getting right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband) into a debate on the economy, rather than on unemployment has said, youth unemployment started to become a in Scotland. Can we keep to the subject of the debate? problem in this country in 2004; it is not a product of the current Government. We all have to do more to David Mundell: Indeed. I will leave the economy to work with employers to encourage them to take on my colleague the Chancellor, who will no doubt respond young people. to the exact issue raised by the hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice). Jim McGovern: Will the Minister give way? Some important points have been raised, and hon. Members have taken the opportunity to highlight what is being done in their local authority areas. We have to David Mundell: No, I want to conclude this point, recognise what an important role local government because it is very important. Youth unemployment is a plays in taking forward the jobs agenda. scourge, and we all have a part to play in dealing with it. There is a serious attitudinal problem among employers I am pleased to confirm the work of the Scottish about taking on young people. They think that if they Employability Forum. Although the title includes the take on a young person—this is particularly the case word “employability,” the forum actually focuses on all with small and medium-sized businesses—that will create employment issues, because as the hon. Member for hassle and difficulty for them. We have to feed back to Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) made clear in an them that taking on a young person is a positive thing. intervention, things are not working as well as they We have to encourage employers to take a more positive could be for the Scottish Government in their partnerships attitude to bringing young people into work. with both local government and the UK Government. In fact, people in the Work programme in Scotland are being refused training, which is a great concern to Gemma Doyle: I am conscious that the Minister does us all. not have much time, but I am desperately worried that we are not getting to grips with the issues that have been Cathy Jamieson: I thank the Minister for confirming raised this morning. He has been challenged directly that the Scottish Employability Forum will consider about no Scotland Office Minister being involved in any all aspects of employment. Will he give us further of the key Cabinet Committees on the economy and information on any specific actions that that forum welfare reform. Will he respond to that point? Will he will take? When will the forum report, and when will it give a commitment that he will make representations make recommendations on its outcomes? that a Scotland Office Minister should be involved in those Cabinet Committees? David Mundell: The forum will meet for the first time early in the new year, and its prime focus will be to David Mundell: The hon. Lady’s colleague, the shadow co-ordinate the different interests and to ensure that Secretary of State, has already written to the Secretary there is a seamless programme of support for people of State on those issues, and the shadow Secretary of looking for work, thereby ensuring that they are neither State was given a full reply, which I am sure she will passed around nor a victim of conflicting agendas. The share with the hon. Lady. forum has an important role to play, because it is quite I want to use my remaining time to respond to the clear that we have to bring together more close working. issues raised about the Work programme. There has I am concerned about a couple of issues that were been a misrepresentation of it, which I hope is not raised. deliberate—I am sure it is not just for the purposes of the template press releases that have been put out by the Mark Lazarowicz: Will the Minister give way? Labour party across Scotland. It is simply too early to 277WH Unemployment in Scotland 5 DECEMBER 2012 278WH judge whether the Work programme is succeeding against Police and Crime Commissioners its objectives, because it is a two-year programme that has been running for just about a year. 11 am “Outcomes” is a defined term in the report on the Work programme, and it means that a work provider Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): It is has been paid for someone being in work for six months. nice to be under your chairmanship for the first time, It does not mean that those are the only people who Ms Dorries. I begin this debate on police commissioners’ have gone into work through the Work programme. In role in early intervention by congratulating all the police fact, the bulk of the people who are in the process are and crime commissioners elected last month. They have still on the programme, because they have not been able an historic role, and they bring a long-overdue democratic to complete the six-month period. There has been an element to policing that will strengthen both policing attempt to distort the figures to decry the Work programme, and democracy over time. I hope that by the next police and I would be disappointed if any Member present commissioner elections, they will be an even more important took any pleasure in the idea that the Work programme and legitimate part of our society, particularly if those could somehow be described as a failure. It cannot, elections are held at a sensible time of year with properly because it is not a failure. The figures are not available resourced freepost election addresses and without the to make the sort of judgment that Opposition Members low-level point-scoring that characterised this year’s leapt to today. campaign. Central to that mission is the clarity and relevance of the vision for police commissioners, and that is what I will address today. My first specific ask for the Minister is to accept my invitation to deliver the keynote address at a House of Commons conference of all police and crime commissioners, discussing how they can help stop crime through early intervention. The conference follows on from the highly successful early intervention and crime conference opened by the Home Secretary last March. We need our police commissioners to hammer home the two key principles of modern policing: partnership and prevention. Those two principles come together in early intervention. The police have long since realised that they cannot tackle crime on their own. They need effective partnership, and police commissioners are the perfect people to deliver that. One of the smarter breed of top cops, John Carnochan, former head of homicide in Glasgow, says that 1,000 extra police officers would be great, but 1,000 extra health visitors would be clever. He knows that working with health, education, the third sector and other partners to stop crime before it happens—rather than just picking up the pieces afterwards —is the future of policing. The new police commissioners could be the midwives of a cultural change in policing from late intervention to early and pre-emptive intervention. The police will always have the task of reacting to crime, but sustained crime prevention and reduction requires a strategy that unites the police with all the other agencies, whether public, private, third sector or business, that can help tackle the behaviours and lifestyles that breed antisocial behaviour and crime. Talk to any experienced police officer, from the local bobby to the chief constable, and they will tell you the same stories about the families that cause trouble and the newborn baby destined to carry on the tradition who will come their way in 12, 14 or 16 years’ time. Many of us—teachers, health workers, councillors and MPs—have the same experience. We all know that if we were not so busy firefighting, the best time to sort out the problem would be in the first few years of life. That has been common sense for many centuries, but it is now confirmed by a robust scientific evidence base. Bessel van der Kolk, writing in the US Psychiatric Annals, said that according to his research, people with childhood histories of trauma, abuse and neglect make up almost the entire criminal population. More than 279WH Police and Crime Commissioners5 DECEMBER 2012 Police and Crime Commissioners 280WH

[Mr Graham Allen] demonstrates to me that massive expertise is available if Government can encourage police commissioners to one third of the 100,000 most hardened criminals in the use it. UK were in care as children, and half have no school Many police commissioners to whom I have spoken qualifications at all. The Centre for Mental Health tells are well aware of this agenda. They range across the me that six out of 10 child offenders have speech and parties and include Staffordshire’s Matthew Ellis, communication problems. Tim Bull of the Brook Trust Nottinghamshire’s Paddy Tipping, Nick Alston of Essex reinforces that tackling the trauma of sexual abuse and Winston Roddick of North Wales, to name but a would greatly affect offending behaviour later in life. I few. Police commissioners are perfectly positioned to also agree strongly with Chief Superintendent Irene explore the role of policy making based on evidence of Curtis, president-elect of the Police Superintendents what works, as well as social finance and payment by Association of England and Wales, who said: results in reducing crime. “I see the new role of police and crime commissioners as an We pioneered that approach with the police and opportunity for someone to have an overview of the increasing other partners in developing Nottingham as the first demands in relation to community safety in its widest sense that early intervention city. Enlightened, forward-thinking face all public sector organisations at a local level and to look for police officers became the driving force of the new innovative and creative, sustainable solutions.” partnership. Alan Given, Shaun Beebe, Peter Moyes If children acquire a bedrock of basic social and emotional and many others were at the forefront of the movement. skills in the first three years of life, they have a better At one point, local police were prepared to signal their chance of being successful in the rest of life, achieving commitment to stopping crime before it started by at school, in further education and in work, developing financially supporting local health visitors. We then good physical and mental health, making good lifestyle brought the family nurse partnership programme to choices and, above all, forming relationships that lead Nottingham, giving more than 100 teen mums and their to becoming great parents or carers for the next generation. babies a dedicated health visitor and the social and For all those reasons, police commissioners and police emotional skills to make a bright future for themselves. officers know that early intervention programmes giving It cost the same amount of money as banging up three a good start in the first few years of life are the best 16-year-olds in a secure unit for a year, two of whom, possible method of preventing future criminal behaviour. incidentally will go on to reoffend. That sort of investment in cutting the supply of dysfunction and criminality is That was the central message of the two reports on a no-brainer. I ask the police commissioners to join early intervention that I wrote for Her Majesty’s the rest of us in explaining this to the Treasury as the Government last year, and it is why I then wrote to all biggest deficit reduction program it could dream of. police and crime commissioner candidates challenging Billions of pounds that we currently spend on late them to adopt early intervention policies as the unique intervention could be saved by small investments early selling point in their relationship with the police. Instead in life, to prevent people from going wrong. of treading on operational toes or seeking populism and publicity, police commissioners could use their The police commissioners should follow the words of skills, their independence and their role to bring a Sir Robert Peel, who wisely put preventing crime first in strategic and long-term view to reducing crime, which the list, when creating the Metropolitan police, even would be welcomed by police officers, victims and taxpayers. ahead of catching offenders. This is going further than police commissioners lobbying to ensure that those on I have been pleasantly surprised by the positive response the edges of the justice system or at risk of offending that this debate has generated already. The Revolving receive support, which they should, from mental health, Doors Agency reminded me that a quarter of young social care, drug and alcohol and employment services, offenders are themselves fathers, perpetuating an important as those things are. This deeper step is about intergenerational cycle that must be broken. Andrew pre-emption: stopping crime before it starts. With the Balchin, the communities director in Wakefield, referred right early intervention policies, we can forestall many to “bobbies and babies” initiatives in which police of the mental and social problems that are factors in community support officers help parents keep children generating antisocial behaviour and crime later in life. from offending. Councillor Maxi Martin of Merton Cut off the supply. Tackle the causes, not just the said that “partnership, partnership, partnership” is symptoms. Yes, swat mosquitoes, but drain the swamp, everything. Guy Mason reminded me of Save the Children’s too. families and schools together programme, which is Early intervention can break the cycle of dysfunction supported by Morrisons. Jean Gross talked about the that makes some families nurseries for offending. It can social and emotional aspects of learning, or SEAL, do this much more cheaply and reliably than intervening programme used in every primary class in Nottingham later and can generate lasting savings for local budgets, between ages five and 11. Marion Bennathan of the and lasting gains in the quality of life for local Nurture Group Network highlighted the link between neighbourhoods. absenteeism at school and crime. Effective information sharing between partners was mentioned by Neal Kieran, Police commissioners using early intervention to attack principal community protection officer in St Albans. the causes of crime at the source will also unlock, with tiny investments, a huge new stream of money. We are Many other practical points have been made. The already seeing payback from investment in social and Local Government Association and the Children’s Society emotional programmes; those involving young offenders have taken an interest in this debate, because they see are massively reducing costly reoffending. Such programmes that police commissioners can play a role in getting to —for example, at Peterborough and Doncaster prisons— the source of crime rather than waiting until 15, 16 or are also the pioneers of social finance and innovative 20 years later to pick up the pieces expensively. That bond issues. 281WH Police and Crime Commissioners5 DECEMBER 2012 Police and Crime Commissioners 282WH

I was recently in New York, where the deputy mayor programmes that make us safer and generate a return to made an innovative agreement with Goldman Sachs the taxpayer, they will demonstrate to all those who did and a provider of social and emotional development. not vote last week that there is a clear reason to do so This reduced recidivism in 16 to 18-year-olds, generated next time. a profit for Goldman and may ultimately result in a money-saving wing or prison closure. 11.16 am Police commissioners should, in their oversight of policing budgets, work with institutions like the Early The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Intervention Foundation and others to insist that every Browne): It is a pleasure for all hon. Members to see you police service has, as standard, such long-sighted invest- safely back in our parliamentary bosom, Ms Dorries. to-save programmes. That will create an income stream As always, I congratulate the hon. Member for that the police will be pleased to receive year after year, Nottingham North (Mr Allen), whom for the purposes as the savings accumulate. of this debate I call my hon. Friend, on his sterling and Doing this locally is difficult. Sharing the costs and sustained work on early intervention. To summarise the benefits is the key to such innovative investment. If what I am going to say in the next 10 to 12 minutes, I a health visitor can help prevent the expensive costs of agree with him. He is right to give this issue his attention. policing and criminal justice further down the line, The evidence is compelling. There are some encouraging police commissioners should start working with local long-term crime trends in Britain and other countries in health services to plan for the spending and saving from the western world, but those will only be sustained by prevention and early intervention. Local authorities, having a long-term analysis of and understanding about which are now taking on new responsibilities for public what causes crime, and with solutions to those causes that health, need to join these new collective financial drive down the figures in future. arrangements, to invest a little bit now and redistribute The hon. Gentleman mentioned police and crime transparently the funds that are generated by stopping commissioners. People abbreviate that, calling them crime early. Building effective partnerships with education police commissioners, and in doing so risk overlooking and health will enable joint spending to take place early an important component of the commissioners’ work, on, followed by redistribution of the big savings to all which is the “and crime” dimension. They are not just partners later. the chairman of the local police force, organising its My second ask of the Minister is that he encourages budgets and recruitment practices. They are also there examples of early intervention and promotes it by recruiting to take a view about how to reduce crime in the area just 10 of our willing police commissioners and linking that they are responsible for, which may mean short-term them with those who have the expertise to provide interventions with immediate crime problems—I hope evidence-based programmes, the monetisation of outcomes that they will do that—and about having a broader, and the sometimes complicated contractual partnership longer-term view about the causes of crime and what arrangements—let us try to get some standardisation they can do to bring about positive changes. into the programmes to save a lot of money—to help us I will talk a little bit about police and crime make such arrangements an everyday feature of policing commissioners, but first let me illustrate why early by the end of the first term of the first police commissioners. intervention is so important and then talk briefly about This is not hopeful speculation; this is happening some measures that we are already putting place, which now. Early intervention has proven results. I mentioned could work either with the commissioners or standing attaching health visitors to teenage mothers, as is done on their own, but are nevertheless important in terms of in Nottingham. We draw on a 30-year evidence base the broader issue that the hon. Gentleman brings to our from the family nurse partnership and see reduced attention. crime, better job prospects and educational achievement. On the benefits of early intervention, I want to bring We introduced the family intervention project, which two brief studies to the attention of the House. One was has seen 100% of its clients complying with community an American study that found that children growing up sentences while engaged on the programme. These are in violent households had a seven times higher chance not just the noisy neighbours; they are the most difficult of developing alcohol problems than children who did families in our city. There has been a 56% improvement not suffer such adverse experiences at home in their in children’s attendance at school. There have been big formative years; the chance of developing illicit drug gains. Police commissioners could also link with the use problems was four and a half times higher, and the new troubled families initiative and make self-financing chance of committing violence was nearly nine times and, indeed, profit-making deals that could reduce crime higher. There are causal links, and the likelihood of as well as harvesting dividends for reinvestment in children whose first few years are the most difficult policing. having such problems is not just 5% or 10% greater, but Again, if the Minister and the Home Office wish to hundreds of per cent. greater. The second study was take this further, those of us involved in early intervention done in the United Kingdom, and it showed that children would be happy to help with the nuts and bolts. who were identified as being at risk at the age of three In a typically British way, this important extension of had two and a half times more criminal convictions by democracy has had a difficult birth. However, police the time they turned 21 than those not so identified. commissioners should put that behind them. They now The value of what the hon. Gentleman has brought have it within their power not only to give voice to to our attention is obvious, and the benefits are felt ordinary people, but to make a strategic, lasting contribution sooner than some people might realise in some contexts, to making our society a safer and happier place. If they such as truanting from school and petty—entry-level, if use their position creatively to become champions of you like—criminality among relatively young children. early intervention and argue for effective crime-reduction We are not necessarily talking about a 20 or even 283WH Police and Crime Commissioners5 DECEMBER 2012 Police and Crime Commissioners 284WH

[Mr Jeremy Browne] The hon. Gentleman discussed police and crime commissioners and I want to spend the last few minutes 15-year time lag; there might be a much shorter time lag of my speech on that subject. Their purpose is to give before the benefits of today’s early intervention can be the work of the police greater public accountability, but seen. also to give a sense of leadership, in public communications The Government have introduced several measures terms, to policing in each community. I hope that they that we hope will have a beneficial impact. We are spending will become important figureheads and help to give —if the different funds are aggregated—£2.3 billion impetus to improvements in their police forces, but also this year, £2.4 billion next year and £2.5 billion the year drive a public debate within communities about what after on the early intervention grant. I should not can be done to tackle the sorts of crime that MPs hear anticipate the autumn statement, which will happen in about every day—lower-level crime, vandalism, antisocial just over an hour, but I suspect that not every Government behaviour, late-night noise and graffiti. I hope that they budget will receive such year-on-year increases. However, will be interested in all those issues, as well as in more we are keen to sustain funding for the early intervention serious crimes such as domestic violence and burglary. grant. The Government are also extending entitlement I hope that the commissioners will see—and this is to free early education to two-year-olds from next year, the purpose of the debate—the wider benefits of working so that more children will be given opportunities at that with other agencies besides the police. The police in my formative stage. A separate sum of £448 million has constituency of Taunton Deane are very responsive in been allocated for the troubled families programme, to working with schools, voluntary community groups, ensure that we have the right multi-agency hands-on neighbourhood watch schemes, churches, cadets and approach for the 120,000 families around the country scout groups. All those groups can play an important who have been identified as in the greatest difficulty. I role. Local businesses are also often willing to support know from first-hand experience, because I have sat in initiatives that reduce local crime and help with early on the meetings, that the Prime Minister takes a direct intervention. I hope that PCCs will be imaginative interest in that initiative, and that it has the support of about their use of budgets and time, so that as well as many Departments. It is hugely important for the life working with the police they can encourage the police opportunities and prospects of the children of those and others to work together for the benefit of the families that it should succeed; and it is also important community. in relation to the issue that we are debating—the impact The hon. Gentleman raised two specific points—two on crime in the future. “asks”, I think he said. The first one was easy, when he The family-nurse partnership programme is a scheme was good enough to ask me whether I would speak at to help, particularly, vulnerable teenage mothers who an event he is arranging with police and crime perhaps do not have the support network that they need commissioners. I would be delighted to speak at such an in their family or community to give their children the event and hope that by doing so I give force and the best start in life. We are expanding that, and thousands Government’s backing to exactly the type of activity of young women will experience the benefits of the that he brings to our attention. Diary permitting, obviously, programme in the next three years. That is intended to I say yes, thank you, to that invitation. ensure that children have the right early upbringing—that The second point was about bringing together a they are raised well and have the right diet—to stand group of police and crime commissioners. I think that them in good stead. the hon. Gentleman suggested a group of 10. I am There are other schemes being run in different interested in that, and would like to consider what we Departments. We hope that many of the changes in the could do and how officials might want to organise it. Of Department for Education will be beneficial for attendance course, the Home Office must do a difficult balancing rates and ways of dealing with children who have act: we cannot tell police forces that we are letting go behavioural problems, and will improve performance and that we want police and crime commissioners with and exam attainment. There is a quite close correlation their direct electoral mandate to make decisions about between success at school and likely propensity to their time and budgets in their area and then, as soon as criminality either while the child should be at school or we have said it, tell them that we are going to organise later. The link is not an absolute one: some high-achieving lots of events where we will tell them how to organise children go on to be criminal, and some low-achieving their affairs. We want to get the right balance, and we ones do not; but there is a correlation. On the employment want them to take the leadership role. However, the side, there is also a link between worklessness and a Home Office Ministers met all the police and crime propensity to a life of criminality, and we are trying to commissioners on Monday to talk through some of the do more to help young people to get apprenticeships, for programme and the activities that we have in the Home example. The Government funded 360,000 apprenticeships Office, to introduce them to some of the ideas. I see last year, and have also spent £30 million on the innovation huge virtue in sharing early intervention best practice, fund, which supports about 17,000 of the most vulnerable particularly with police and crime commissioners who young people over a three-year period. I have mentioned are interested. I am keen to work with the hon. Gentleman those things because I would not want the House to on ideas of that type, and on other projects, to make form the impression that the area in question is receiving further progress on early intervention. no attention. Senior and Cabinet-level Ministers, including in the Home Office—the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is another good example—are trying to do more about the problems that the hon. Gentleman 11.30 am has raised. Sitting suspended. 285WH 5 DECEMBER 2012 Regional Newspapers 286WH

Regional Newspapers He goes on to say, in the executive summary, that many local and regional newspapers “are no longer financially viable and they are all under enormous [MR JIM HOOD in the Chair] pressure as they strive to re-write the business model necessary for survival. Yet their demise would be a huge setback for communities (where they report on local politics, occurrences in the local 2.30 pm courts, local events, local sports and the like) and would be a real loss for our democracy.” Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Members will have noticed the new clock displays in the Chamber. As That is why it is so important for us to have the debate before, the top display is the current time and the today and why we agree the importance of the Government bottom display, when a speech is not being timed, will focusing on providing a sustainable future for our regional show the time it started. If it becomes necessary to press. introduce a speech limit, the bottom display will change, to show the time remaining to the Member who currently Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I has the Floor. As in the main Chamber, the display can congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important now award an extra minute for the first two interventions debate. We have touched on the Leveson report and in a speech. certain comments from it. May I refer to another comment The first debate this afternoon is on the future of by Lord Justice Leveson? He said that the contribution regional newspapers. I call Andrew Griffiths. of regional newspapers to local life is “truly without parallel”. In my constituency, we have the Kent Messenger Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): Thank you, Mr Hood. and the Medway Messenger, with circulation of 370,000 a It is a great pleasure to be serving under your chairmanship week and 270,000 hits on the internet site, clearly showing today. how important their contribution is. I welcome all those colleagues who have taken the time and trouble to take part in this important debate Andrew Griffiths: My hon. Friend wins the prize for on this busy day. I think that is because we all recognise being the first Member to mention his local newspaper. the importance of our local newspapers in the communities For anyone who was having a sweep, we were about five that we represent. We recognise the value and contribution minutes into this important debate at the first name that a daily or weekly newspaper makes to the lives of check. However, I agree wholeheartedly with him. the people we seek to serve. The second development that I draw colleagues’attention The debate is topical because of two important to is the announcement in the past few days of the developments in the past few days. First, as colleagues amalgamation of Local World, a new joint venture that understand, this week the House has been debating the we hope will be part of the solution for the future of our consequences of the Leveson report. None of us can regional newspapers. As colleagues know, it is a joint fail to be appalled by the revelations that came out of venture with the Daily Mail group’s Northcliffe Media the phone-hacking inquiries and by the disreputable and includes investment from Trinity Mirror. The new activities of some members of the journalist profession. company will contain 100 regional newspapers and It is only right for us to consider the future implications 60 websites, which is a massive development in the for our free press. What was clear from the report, situation of our regional newspapers. This is the first however, was that the one sector of the media industry opportunity for the Minister to put on record his thoughts that was free from blame was our regional and local on the future effect of that and on what more needs to newspapers. be done in the wake of the announcement. We have to recognise that our regional newspapers Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): I congratulate my are in a pretty poor state. They are under pressure in hon. Friend on securing the debate. Does he agree that a way that national newspapers do not suffer. We all it would be totally wrong for the local press which are recognise that the print media generally are having a not at fault for anything—as acknowledged in the Leveson tough time, because of the internet and the change in report—to be punished for the fault of other, far larger how people are viewing their media, but regional newspapers newspapers of national consequence? The local press are particularly hard hit. Let us look at the figures. have done nothing wrong whatever. Advertising and circulation revenue for regional newspapers in 2004 was £3.113 billion; six years later, in 2010, that Andrew Griffiths: I thank my hon. Friend for that figure had fallen to £1.599 billion. The number of important intervention and agree with him wholeheartedly, regional daily newspapers has fallen from 109 in 2002 to because it is essential that our regional press, which are only 84 today.Two hundred regional newspapers, including under the greatest pressure, should not be burdened dailies and weeklies, have been lost in the past decade. with expensive and difficult regulation, and the finger We all recognise that the loss of a local newspaper is a of blame should not be pointed at them. As Justice loss of an important part of our communities. Leveson points out, the regional press are free from We all bemoan the loss of a post office or the local such accusations. I draw attention to what he says in the pub—I declare an interest as the chair of the all-party report: parliamentary beer group—but we should bemoan the “In relation to regional and local newspapers, I do not make a loss of our local newspapers in the same way, because specific recommendation but I suggest that the Government they are the key to information within our communities. should look urgently as what action it might be able take to help safeguard the ongoing viability of this much valued and important part of the British press. It is clear to me that local, high-quality Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): I thank my hon. and trusted newspapers are good for our communities, our identity Friend for securing the debate. I obviously have to and our democracy and play an important social role.” mention the Redditch Standard and the Redditch Advertiser 287WH Regional Newspapers5 DECEMBER 2012 Regional Newspapers 288WH

[Karen Lumley] Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Is my hon. Friend aware of the distinction between local and regional in my constituency, which employ local journalists with newspapers, and will he say a bit more for my benefit great knowledge of our area. For example, we have a about what is happening at regional level? My local hospital threatened with closure, and local newspapers newspaper, the Isle of Wight County Press, is absolutely allow people to have their say. Does he agree that if fine and is widely read in the county, but what is we are serious about local democracy and keeping it, we happening with regional newspapers? must help our local press? Andrew Griffiths: I am sure that my hon. Friend Andrew Griffiths: I am sorry to tell my hon. Friend appears regularly in her local newspapers because she that the picture is the same for local and regional makes important contributions such as that. She touches newspapers. They are all suffering loss of revenue, for on two important points: democracy, which I will come various reasons. The internet has had an impact on on to later; and employment. Not only do local newspapers advertising revenue, as has the slow-down in the employment employ a number of people in our constituencies, they market, the rise in job websites, and the loss of advertising are also the training or breeding grounds for the national for car sales and estate agents. All that is adding to the journalists of tomorrow. We can all point to august severe drop in income for regional newspapers. We must journalists, people with a fine career in journalism, who see what we can do to make them more sustainable. have earned their spurs, done their apprenticeship and The free weekly newspapers are suffering most, because learned the trade in regional newspapers—covering the they are feeling the loss of advertising revenue much parish council, the village fête and the flower show. This more than those that receive a contribution from people is a good training ground to understand grass-roots who pay for newspapers. There has been some stability communities and grass-root politics. We lose that at our in income in recent months, but much of it is because perils, although losing it we are. Since January 2002, we newspapers have been forced to raise their prices. Readership have lost 13.2% of our local newspapers, and I do not continues to fall, and at the moment newspapers are want to lose any more. My hon. Friend the Member for bridging the gap, but that is not sustainable in the long Redditch (Karen Lumley) referred to democracy. We all term, and we must see what we can do to make them recognise the important role that local newspapers play sustainable. in holding local authorities and public figures to account for their decisions. Rehman Chishti: Does my hon. Friend agree that One of the key thrusts of the Government’s agenda is some newspapers have diversified, such as the Kent localism. We want to devolve power down to the lowest Messenger, which has an internet page that receives possible level. We want to empower local communities, 292,000 clicks a month? KMFM radio is also available, through local councils, to make decisions that best and if local newspapers are to survive in the long term, affect their communities. If we are to hand down that they must diversify and attract different audiences. Some responsibility, and if we are to hand down that power are not doing that. to elected councillors and officials, such as police commissioners, it is even more important that we have the right checks and balances in place to hold them to Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. Will hon. Members account. It is even more important that people scrutinise make their interventions shorter? the work of our councils and police commissioners to ensure that local people are properly represented, that Andrew Griffiths: Thank you, Mr Hood, for that they get the government they deserve, and that local advice. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Newspapers money is spent effectively. How can that be done if local are businesses, and are run by business people. They reporters do not attend council meetings? recognise that they must diversify, and they are looking for alternative income and revenue streams. All our Mr Scott: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the newspapers now have internet sites, and are looking at biggest assets of a local press—I feel duty-bound to how to spread their contents on as many platforms as mention the Ilford Recorder and the Wanstead and possible. I hope that the Local World venture will help Woodford Guardian in which hon. Members may read in that objective, but the reality is that advertising my column tomorrow—is that they print facts, not with revenue through the internet is much lower than what glamour or spin, but just the facts of what happens, can be expected through the printed medium, and that whether a flower show, a council meeting or any other is disappointing for the many newspapers that have event? invested heavily in their online presence and advertising. Andrew Griffiths: I will dash to my computer tomorrow They are competing with a whole host of different morning to find my hon. Friend’s column online. He is bodies, and competing with advertising on Google, absolutely right. Lord Justice Leveson said in his report Yahoo and other providers. It is difficult for them to that although there are sometimes allegations of inaccuracy compete. in local media, they do not have the same political The problem is not a UK phenomenon. The Newspaper allegiances, and they report both sides of the argument. Association of America says that industry losses account I am sure that all hon. Members can point to stories for some £500 million in a half year, which is offset by that they disagree with, but people cannot hide from only a £20 million increase in online revenue. That their local newspapers, because they have phone numbers shows the position that our newspapers are in. They and know where people live, and can hold them to are trying to be good businesses, and looking for new account for decisions that affect their readership and markets, but those new markets have much smaller our constituents. That is hugely important to us as margins and revenue income. We must look at what we politicians. can do. 289WH Regional Newspapers5 DECEMBER 2012 Regional Newspapers 290WH

I touched briefly on democracy. We all recognise how Government has done a great deal to try and rein in the much more difficult it would be to communicate with worst excesses of those councils. However, we are still our constituents without a local newspaper to get our seeing some councils, such as Cardiff city council, spend message across. It is a case of, “If it didn’t exist, we’d huge amounts of money. A newspaper is produced have to invent it.” We must look at the implications for there 13 times a year at a cost of some £33 million to the us as politicians and as the Government if we lose this taxpayer. Is that a good use of council tax payers’ important communication tool. I have a hardy band of money, or should we be looking at what we can do to deliverers in Burton, but my ability to communicate support our local newspapers? with my constituents would be vastly reduced if I lost Secondly, I touch on the issue of Department for my local newspapers, and I would be remiss if I did not Transport notices. A consultation ended earlier this mention the Burton Mail. I am lucky to have such a year, as the Minister will know, on the DFT and its use great newspaper. It is a daily newspaper, and run by of advertising notices in our local newspapers to ensure a fantastic editor, Mr Kevin Booth. I am also lucky to that local residents understand properly what is going have three weekly newspapers, the Uttoxeter Post and on with the transport network in our constituencies. Times, the Uttoxeter Echo and the Uttoxeter Advertiser. Were that important income revenue to be lost to local Strangely, they all serve Uttoxeter in my constituency. newspapers, I have absolutely no doubt that it would Those newspapers, particularly the Burton Mail, serve lead to the loss of journalists and tip some of our another purpose. They are local campaigning tools. weaker local newspapers, which might disappear for They are the voice for the local community. They do not ever, over the edge. just transmit information to my constituents; they take I am fast coming to the end of the time that I have to up causes on their behalf. The Burton Mail has run a speak. whole host of campaigns on issues such as knife crime, making the town centre safer, and keeping the Margaret Stanhope mental health centre in my constituency open. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, A plethora of great campaigns have galvanised the Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): More! community in the way that a Facebook page simply cannot. If we lose our newspapers’ campaigning ability, Andrew Griffiths: I thank the Minister for demanding the voice of our communities will be diminished, and more, but sadly no one behind me is saying the same. we should care deeply about that if we care about our I know that the Minister is a champion for local constituents. newspapers. I have seen the number of times that he has Our local newspapers are the first point of call for appeared, peering out from the pages of the Wantage people to find information. Although my local councils— and Grove Herald, and I know how he supports his local East Staffordshire borough council and Staffordshire newspapers. However, although he is responsible for county council—have fantastic websites, Twitter feeds this issue in his Department, we need to look at the and Facebook accounts, to try to communicate with the wider landscape and what the Government can do to people who pay council tax, those people do not visit support local newspapers, if we are serious about a the websites daily to look for information, whereas local sustainable future for them. I urge him to look at what newspapers are such a repository of information. I said he can do to get a council of war together with other earlier that if we did not have them, we would have to Departments. Let us look at what we can do with the reinvent them. Department for Communities and Local Government The Government must realise the importance of our and the Cabinet Office, in relation to the big society, local newspapers in communicating messages to the and at what we are doing with Departments such as the country. The Government advertising budget is under Department for Transport. Let us get all those Departments pressure. We recognise that we must make serious savings, together and see how we can maximise the benefit of and the Government are looking at communicating our local newspapers. through new media, but many of my constituents are I am a Conservative and I hate to use the word older people. Although we have a large number of silver “subsidy”—I do not use that word lightly—but there surfers in Burton, many people still do not use the are ways in which the Government can do more to internet, Twitter, or Facebook, and turn to local newspapers support, rather than subsidise, our local newspapers. for information. If we lose that, it will be to all our We have to look innovatively at how we can channel detriment. Government activity and use our local newspapers to The Government need to look at what more we can their benefit and that of Government. do. I have come up with the phrase “community capital”, Trust is hugely important. As we have seen in recent and I think there is some community value in what our weeks, although Twitter is a fantastic vehicle for getting local newspapers do. In the same way that we support information out, it is also hugely unreliable. We have post offices through Government initiatives for the provision seen the implications that that has had for people who of services, and the voluntary sector through the Big have been thrust into the media spotlight through no Society Bank and investment in voluntary services, we fault of their own. Local newspapers are trusted in a should look at supporting our local newspapers to way that no other form of information is. We as a ensure that that community capital is not lost. Government support the BBC, local television and Channel I point to two things. First, I recognise that the 4 through various mechanisms, and it is important for Government have taken some steps on tackling the us to begin to re-examine how we support our local issue of council newspapers. We have all seen the growth newspapers to ensure that they continue to hold us as of free local council newspapers that go through doors politicians to account, continue to be champions for at quite some expense, and my right hon. Friend and their local communities, and continue to support our chum the Secretary of State for Communities and Local local communities in achieving all that they can. 291WH Regional Newspapers5 DECEMBER 2012 Regional Newspapers 292WH

2.56 pm A survey of NUJ members at Newsquest Essex north John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I found that staff had worked an extra day a fortnight congratulate the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew voluntarily. A letter to the management said: Griffiths) on securing the debate and on the way in “Editorial staff has been cut by a third in the past three years which he has introduced it. He referred to Leveson, and and the remaining staff have undertaken more work than ever.” it is worth repeating that Leveson said that local papers’ An NUJ rep from the north-west said: “contribution to local life is truly without parallel…their demise would be a huge setback for communities “Reporters are less likely to get out of the office to see contacts and have less time on individual stories, developing and investigating and them. Subs have less time to check stories, design pages and have “a real loss for our democracy”. less time spent on proofing pages.” Their demise has taken place before our eyes—that is That is what we have witnessed, and that is the report the problem. back from the front about the seriousness of the cuts Let me give the figures from the National Union of that have taken place. What is galling for staff is that in Journalists—I am the secretary of the NUJ parliamentary addition to the cuts, they have had pay cuts and pay group and my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby freezes during the past 10 years, but at the same time (Austin Mitchell) is the chair. We have been engaged in some of the management wages have been astounding. debates such as this for some time and things have got worse, not better. Over the past seven years, since we Let me give some examples. Paul Davidson, chief had one of our earliest debates, 20% of the UK’s local executive of the Newsquest newspaper group, received newspapers have closed. We have lost 240 titles and at £598,441 in salary last year. The figures, for 2011, show the moment, we are fighting on a range of fronts. The that directors of Newsquest were awarded an additional Press Association has been closing its regional lobby £881,000 in “share-based payments”. It just goes on. service and making journalists redundant. We have Craig Dubow, head of the US parent company Gannett tabled early-day motion 715, which exposes what is Company, Inc., resigned in 2011 and walked off with a happening at the Press Association, and I invite Members £23 million golden handshake. It is not that the money to sign it. is not there. What has happened over a long period is At the moment, Johnston Press is trawling for that there has been profiteering in the industry, which redundancies of more than 50 posts, and the NUJ has has resulted in the cutbacks that we are suffering now. been denied collective consultation on the cuts so far. That has put in jeopardy these community assets—that That is not the sort of commitment we were given by is what they are. The hon. Member for Burton is right some proprietors last year, who said that there would at about that. I wish they had been so designated so in the least be a dialogue with their staff about what was Localism Act 2011, because they are community assets happening in their companies. Trinity Mirror has just that we all value. announced 75 job cuts, amounting to an 18.75% cut of Other activities need to be put on the record. There its editorial work force. Interestingly enough, the company, have been tax scams in the industry. A tax tribunal while it is sacking its own staff, has bought a 20% stake relating to Iliffe News and Media was told how that in David Montgomery’s Local World, but it will not be group had drawn up a tax avoidance scheme by assigning putting its regional or local papers into that operation. to its parent company the unregistered newspaper The Daily Mail and General Trust has shed about a mastheads used by its subsidiaries, which were then quarter of its work force of 3,000 since 2010 and it has charged as a lump sum payment, to downplay its successful announced a further 13% cut in regional editorial costs financial position. That was exposed at a tribunal. The this year. The number of people employed at Northcliffe company lost the case. It was exposed that it sought a stood at 2,450 in 2012, compared with 3,130 in October tax deduction for payments amounting to £51.5 million. 2010. That is an absolute scandal. In many ways, the management The jobs are going. We have been tabling early-day of the industry has brought about its own demise. That motions and have been engaged in discussions with the needs to be put on the record and made straight. Minister and the previous Government about how we We now need to look to the future. Montgomery has tackle the issue. The main concern is that the service is bought out Northcliffe Media and Iliffe News and being degraded at a local level. We have done a survey Media in what amounted, I think, to a fire sale of those of local NUJ representatives on the ground, and I will assets, but the staff of those groups are seeking to quote some of the things that have come back. From ensure that there is a long-term plan for security. the Huddersfield Daily Examiner, the NUJ representative Unfortunately, the negotiations on the TUPE transfer reported: are being conducted at the moment at breakneck pace “Each reporter was supposed to spend half a day on their and it is very difficult for the staff to obtain clear patch looking for stories. The idea was abandoned two years ago answers to the many questions that are being put about owing to staff shortages.” contractual terms, long-term security and, in particular, The rep from Birmingham Post and Mail said: the fate of their pension entitlements. What could be “Staff are increasingly going for easy stories—those which can seen as a good initiative could falter because of the be filed and concluded as quickly and with little fuss as possible, failure to engage with other stakeholders and, in particular, from press releases and announcements”. with the staff via the NUJ. That is not the nature of the local press that we have come to admire. The rep from the Coventry Telegraph We can report similar experiences elsewhere. There is said: the outsourcing from Media Scotland-Trinity Mirror. “Loss of staff photographers and their replacement with freelancers Two thousand jobs have gone from the Welsh media and heavier reliance on reporter-supplied photos and submitted industry in the past decade. In Northern Ireland, Johnston pictures likely to lead to deterioration in quality of pictures. Press has made cutbacks overall. That is the bleak Fewer reporters for all titles will also affect content and quality.” picture, but we could have confidence. I share the view 293WH Regional Newspapers5 DECEMBER 2012 Regional Newspapers 294WH expressed by the hon. Member for Burton: this is not on the BBC in particular. They have withdrawn from about subsidising, but about supporting and investing the level of coverage in mid-Wales that I think we for the long term. reasonably deserve. Now, the whole democratic basis, The Minister has taken a particular interest in this which has been a significant part of this debate, depends issue in opposition and since he has transferred into the on our local newspapers. It depends on the County ministerial car. As a result, I think, of one of these Times, which is a key weekly paper, the Shropshire Star, debates, he convened a meeting of proprietors and the Advertiser and the Cambrian News in the west. editors to have a discussion on getting a long-term Without those newspapers, local issues simply would strategy developed. I was really disappointed that only not be aired at all. one turned up. That showed disrespect not just to the I want to give a couple of examples. The biggest local Government and the Minister but to all the other impact is that of onshore wind farms, whether we agree stakeholders in the industry. I would follow the path or disagree with them as individuals. They desecrate the recommended by the hon. Member for Burton. I urge whole area, and without the local newspaper campaign, us to reconvene the meeting. It can be called a seminar, the issue simply would not have engaged the local brainstorming session or whatever. We need to get the community anything like as much as it has. The whole proprietors and editors round a table. We would want of mid-Wales is part of that massive campaign, and we to ensure that the representatives of the employees—the depend on the local newspapers to help us deliver it. NUJ—were there, as well as any others who had an Last week, there was another issue. The local health interest in the matter. It would be useful to have trust has suddenly increased the waiting time for elective representatives of other Departments at the table to surgery from 26 weeks—in Wales it is 26 weeks; in consider what role they can play in investing in, not England it is 18—to 36 weeks. The local population subsidising, the industry in the long term. We can tap would not know that if it were not for the local newspaper. into the creativity that is out there. Local newspapers are therefore crucial in delivering the Let us say that we do convene the meeting and it is information that we need. hosted by the Government. I hope that it would be on a A point that I want to make briefly, without developing cross-party basis, because that was the nature of the it, is about the concerns of local newspapers about the attempts that the previous Government made. That impact of our discussions on Lord Justice Leveson’s would not just demonstrate seriousness but show that report. Most of us would agree that it has very little there would be a long-term approach to the issue, relevance to local newspapers, but there is massive whoever is in government. We need to make it clear in concern about what bureaucracy it might deliver to the debate today and other sources that if that meeting those organisations. Many local newspapers are close to is convened, we expect the owners and proprietors to the brink in their financial liability. We will have to be attend and to take it seriously. Otherwise, they do not very careful about any great increase in the bureaucracy just disrespect Government and the parties in this House, that is needed to comply with new rules and regulations they also let down whole communities that rely on their that apply to national newspapers. Great damage could local newspaper for the reporting of local news and, as be caused in our attempt to do good. the hon. Member for Burton said, for the holding to My final point will reinforce one made by my hon. account of those in power. I therefore urge the Minister Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), who to try again. Let us try again on a cross-party basis to secured the debate. It is about how we can ensure that get people round a table to develop a longer-term local authorities and Government try to channel much strategy for the industry, which we all desperately want of their spend on delivering information, which is right to succeed. and proper, through local newspapers. Powys county council—I am not being critical of what it is doing—is Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. I will start calling desperately keen to have everyone know what is happening the Front-Bench speakers at 3.40 pm. I have four hon. within the council. That is right and proper, but it seems Members on my list of speakers. If hon. Members are to me that if it were inventive and channelled that reasonable with their time, we should be able to manage information through the local newspaper, by engaging that. The next speaker is Glyn Davies. someone who would almost be a dedicated reporter, would be a cheaper and more effective way of engaging 3.6 pm with people. Almost nobody looks at the stuff the council Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Thank you puts out; it is very professional and very good, but it for calling me to speak, Mr Hood. I should apologise does not actually deliver what people want, and the immediately for being late and not hearing the first same may apply to information campaigns by the national seven or eight minutes of the debate. I am therefore very Government. We need inventive ways of transferring grateful to be called. I was thinking about what I was that spend so that it supports local newspapers. going to say when you called me. You did so rather earlier than I expected. That probably serves me right 3.9 pm for being— Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): I thank the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) for securing Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend will have to be spontaneous. a debate on this issue, which is unusual in that there is pretty much a consensus on it across the House—clearly, Glyn Davies: What I say is probably always spontaneous. there is an issue about the ongoing demise of regional I wanted to make a contribution because local and local newspapers. newspapers are incredibly important in mid-Wales, where Members will not be surprised to hear that I am I live. The main reason for that is the retraction of the going to start by talking about my local newspaper, broadcast media; clearly, there has been financial pressure the Sunderland Echo, which is one of the oldest in the 295WH Regional Newspapers5 DECEMBER 2012 Regional Newspapers 296WH

[Julie Elliott] the printing press. Our paper was printed in Sunderland until the beginning of November, as it had been for the country, having started in 1873. It is still a daily paper, entire time it had existed. Sadly, the printing has now although it no longer has three editions a day or area moved to South Yorkshire, which is two and a half to editions. That, in itself, is a dramatic change to the way three hours away by car. People might think, “Well, the in which the paper has operated, and that has all paper’s still being printed,” but 83 jobs have gone, and happened in the past 10 or 15 years. such changes also have an impact on the quality of the The paper is, however, still a hugely important part of newspaper. Previously, the deadline was on the morning our life in Sunderland; it is the main communicator of the paper was printed, but if it takes three hours to take news to the people who live in my city, informing them, the paper somewhere, the deadlines go back, and the keeping them up to date with what is going on and freshness of the stories declines. I totally understand the entertaining them. That is particularly true of elderly economic arguments for that rationalisation, but it people. Although, as has been said, some elderly people undoubtedly has an impact on the paper. have engaged with, and embraced, the internet, many Local papers are some of the most popular printed have not, and many in my constituency cannot afford materials. Some 33 million people read local papers the facilities to do so. For those people, particularly if every week, which is a huge number. There are 1,100 regional they are housebound, getting the local paper of a night newspapers, although that is significantly down on where keeps them in touch with what is happening in not only we were even two or three years ago, never mind 10 years the city, but their local community. That is an important ago. Local papers are a large employer, employing part of what the Sunderland Echo does. 30,000 people, and that is quite apart from the value Over the years, the Sunderland Echo has been at the they add in terms of the people working in newsagents forefront of campaigns to secure things for our city. Ten and other things related to newspapers. years ago, it led a campaign to secure funding to provide As colleagues have said, local newspapers are a good ongoing support for the Durham miners’ gala. The gala training ground for journalists. Many quite prominent is one of the most famous trade union days in the journalists on national papers started their careers in country, and more than 100,000 people turn up to it in local papers. July every year. There is not a mine left in the Durham coalfield, but the gala is about history, tradition and a Andrew Griffiths: The hon. Lady makes an important good day out for the people of the area. More recently, point about local newspapers. Most corner shops and the local paper has led a campaign to secure a children’s newsagents are under pressure, and newsagents get 27% hospice, which is now being built in my constituency. of their income from the sale of newspapers and magazines, Those are important things, but there are also the but that will be lost if we lose our local newspapers. much smaller issues, such as appealing for information when there are road traffic accidents or when things go Julie Elliott: Absolutely. I could not agree more. I missing. The national newspapers simply would not always try to buy my local paper in my local shop, and engage in such communication, but it is important. not in supermarkets, which have a much broader range of products to sustain them. Andrew Griffiths: Does the hon. Lady agree that local Sunderland has a university with a large, well-respected newspapers are a catalyst in raising millions of pounds media department. When people leave, some go straight every year for good causes and local charities? into the national media, and we get a lot on to national training programmes, but many like to go into local news, because it is almost an apprenticeship in the art of Julie Elliott: Yes, absolutely. The children’s hospice I journalism. People learn how to investigate properly mentioned is funded entirely from donations and is set and how to communicate properly with people. If they up as a charity. The work done by local newspapers on go to a national, they will get the very small stories, but such issues is hugely important. in a local paper they have the opportunity to pick up The problems faced by my local paper, however, are anything they hear about living among the people they massive. As I said, the number of editions has gone write for. That will all be lost if the demise of local down, but we still have a daily paper, which I am keen to papers continues. keep going. So many dailies have moved to being weeklies, We must remember that once papers go, they rarely and that is when we lose the real link with local communities, come back, so we must do everything we can to secure because what a weekly paper provides is very different what we have. Local papers are too important to our from what a daily paper provides. communities to lose. I cannot imagine how people in The rise of the internet has been a threat. Although Sunderland would find the information they need to go I look at the news on the internet, I like to read a about their daily lives if we did not have the local newspaper as well—the two are not mutually exclusive. newspaper. We must do all we can to save papers such as The loss of advertising revenue has also caused massive the Sunderland Echo and the others that have been problems, as has the loss of readership—people cannot mentioned. afford to buy newspapers when their price is going up I wholeheartedly support what colleagues have said all the time. Those losses have impinged on the quality about an initiative to bring Departments together. There of newspapers in some areas. are things the Government can do, and statutory notices, Most recently, the Sunderland Echo has suffered which have been mentioned, are a hugely important significant job cuts. It is owned by Johnston Press, which part of local papers’ funding. There must be other is doing its best in difficult and challenging circumstances. things we and the Government can look at to try to However, since the summer, we have lost 13 jobs in secure the future of local newspapers. I might have a sub-editing and design. Significantly, we have also lost different view on subsidies from the hon. Member for 297WH Regional Newspapers5 DECEMBER 2012 Regional Newspapers 298WH

Burton, but in this case, the value of something that is the subject of digital media and local newspapers, is he partly a service, rather than just a business, must sometimes aware that when I tried to get a link to him and his be taken into account when looking at imaginative ways campaign priorities the Rochdale website does not take of doing the things that central and local government me to the page? Does he agree that he must impress on do in any case, to help keep local papers as they are. Rochdale’s Rupert Murdoch the need to maintain links to news stories about the new local MP?

3.18 pm Simon Danczuk: Absolutely. The message will have been received, I have no doubt. I will check Twitter Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): I thank the hon. shortly after I sit down to see whether the paper has Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) for securing picked up on that point. this important debate, and I am more than happy to put on record that he made an excellent speech. John McDonnell: A ministerial instruction. I had not intended to speak about my local newspaper, but I cannot help feeling that a precedent has been set. I Simon Danczuk: That ministerial instruction is extremely now feel obliged to talk at some length about the helpful and I appreciate it. Rochdale Observer and the Manchester Evening News. I was talking about the usefulness of being able to They are both part of Trinity Mirror group, which I follow Twitter and see what is going on in Rochdale would argue is one of the fairer and more balanced council meetings; but I have another example. Deborah publishers in the United Kingdom. Linton, a journalist on the Manchester Evening News is The reporting on the Rochdale Observer is second to tweeting about the autumn statement to the people of none: community news, local sport, profiling of businesses Greater Manchester—taking politics out to people so and events. Its features on the history of Rochdale are that they can follow it and see what is going on. While I fantastic, and the excellent recipes by a local restaurateur, am talking about journalists I will mention Jennifer Andrew Nutter, are spot on; I have attempted some of Williams, who works for the Manchester Evening News, them on occasion and failed miserably. There is a great and the recent Cyril Smith scandal. She has pursued variety of news, stories and features for people to enjoy, that story and written well about it on several occasions. and that must be celebrated. However, the paper also There is still excellent journalism—even if it is under brings national news to local level. It provides a review the cosh, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and of regional and sub-regional news, but what it does Harlington (John McDonnell) pointed out. best, obviously, is provide news for the town—down to I want to mention Leveson briefly. If the national district level, whether in Littleborough, Milnrow or press had followed local press standards there is no Newhey. It provides real focus, even to street level on doubt that we would not be in the position we are in occasion. now. The Rochdale Observer is always quick to make Most importantly, the role that the paper plays in amends if there are inaccuracies in reports. It completely democracy should not be underestimated. We occasionally adheres to the requirements of the Press Complaints talk about the editor of the Rochdale Observer, Gerry Commission. It is unfortunate that a small number of Sammon, as Rochdale’s answer to Rupert Murdoch, national journalists and press organisations have brought which is a little unfair as he is much more reasonable, the industry into disrepute. amiable and friendly than that—and very fair. The The people of Rochdale are immensely proud of paper provides scrutiny of the council, MPs and other their Rochdale Observer. I know that the Manchester private and public organisations. It is the people’s champion Evening News, the Rochdale Observer and Trinity Mirror in Rochdale, giving local people a voice. Like my colleagues are opposed to statutory regulation, but I still feel that I buy the paper every week, and always turn first to the we need some statutory stick with which to push the letters pages, to see what Rochdalians have to say about media to behave themselves and get their house in the events of the day. The paper also gives support to order. campaigns. The hon. Member for Burton mentioned charitable work, which is important, and the Rochdale Observer does that; but it runs other campaigns too. 3.25 pm One was about shopping locally. It was a fantastic Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I congratulate campaign to urge Rochdalians to shop in the town the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) and centre and make the most of it. agree wholeheartedly not only with what he said but The paper has also harnessed technology—something with the solutions that he suggested. It is a question not that has been touched on in the debate. The newspaper of subsidy but of support and of channelling effort into is published twice weekly but the website provides breaking local newspapers. The local press is vital to all of us. It is news on an hourly basis. It also provides wider reach to our means of communication with our constituents and people who might not pick up the newspaper. As to our way of finding out what goes on in the world. We social media the paper has embraced Twitter exceptionally cannot have a big enough office staff to tell us everything well. I follow Twitter when I am in Parliament; I follow that is going on in Grimsby or Rochdale. We need the Chris Jones, one of the local government journalists on local press, and it is central to local democracy. the paper, who tweets from the full council meeting, so I It is sad, therefore, the local press being weakened. can find out instantly what is going on there. Three processes are bringing that about. The first is the closure of local newspapers. In the past seven years, Mr Vaizey: I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not 20% have closed down. Another is the fact that many mind me intervening on his speech, and I welcome him have gone weekly, rather than daily. That happened, for to the Chamber as a new Member of Parliament. On instance, to the Halifax Courier, the Huddersfield Examiner, 299WH Regional Newspapers5 DECEMBER 2012 Regional Newspapers 300WH

[Austin Mitchell] and Customs eventually closed up. Anthony Morton, the Yattendon Holdings finance director, said frankly in and the Scunthorpe Telegraph. That has been done, an e-mail to the company’s accountants: really, as a way of screwing up the rate of return. It is “What we would like to do is to be able to reduce reported going to be a favourite tactic of David Montgomery profits in the newspaper subsidiaries, since the levels of profit and Local World. Journalists are fired and costs are cut, become common knowledge”— and the rate of profit goes up with a weekly paper. as they should— Thirdly, there is the firing of journalists. It is interesting “and could lead to union claims.” that the Northcliffe group, which in 2010 employed That is absolutely scandalous. 3,130 people in its local papers, this year employs only The attempt to get a high rate of return has led to the 2,450. That reduction, by hundreds, in the number of firing of journalists and the deterioration of quality. journalists all over the country weakens the quality of Nothing sells local papers better than good-quality the local press. That is the inevitable effect, because the journalism and good-quality reporting of local issues senior journalists, who are the best paid, are the ones and local people, but it has been cut back, and the result who are made redundant or pushed out. Juvenile staff— all over is falling circulation of local newspapers. If untrained, semi-trained or inadequately trained young Local World is going to make more of its newspapers journalists—are brought in and paid less. That means weekly, it will happen all over the country. that photographs are not taken, and courts, councils and general local affairs are not covered. I must of course mention the Grimsby Telegraph— formerly the Grimsby Evening Telegraph—which has Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Ind): It occurs to me that some done a good job of maintaining quality in the face of large newspaper organisations, such as the Johnston the difficulties and the economies that have been forced Press—The Falkirk Herald, the original Johnston Press upon it. It is now printed in Peterborough and has to be newspaper, is in my constituency—are getting rid of hauled to Grimsby, which means it is later with the news editors in some cases. Does he agree that that does not than it otherwise would be, but it has still done a good seem like a good idea, either? job of maintaining profits and local quality. It is a good example, and I hope that it will not suffer cutbacks under the new group. A more spectacular example is the Austin Mitchell: I agree absolutely. More importantly Cleethorpes Chronicle, which was formed by local journalists, to us, and to local democracy, what is happening means many of them from the Grimsby Telegraph, as a weekly that there is no inquiry into local power elites, which paper in Cleethorpes, Grimsby’s neighbouring town. It can be closer and more tightly knit than central power is now profitable because it provides good information, elites, which are the subject of a good deal of inquiry good local journalism and good coverage of local issues from the national press. Scandals are therefore not in Cleethorpes— not Grimsby. unearthed. I remind that House that it was the Bradford Telegraph and Argus in its vigorous and more campaigning The founding of a local paper is an example of what younger days that unearthed the Poulson scandal and local initiative can do. If run on a local basis, local brought it to national attention—first the attention of papers can still be profitable, and they are profitable. As Private Eye and then the attention of national newspapers. the hon. Member for Burton said, they are a way to That was a local newspaper unearthing a local scandal, encourage local initiatives and companies, and they can which would have gone unknown had it not been for its be financed, if necessary, through the regional growth diligent inquiries. Those inquiries are not made any fund as a vital part of local regeneration. We cannot longer. The newspapers have not the staff to do them. develop a place and support its industries and economy Their coverage is all too often in the form of press without a local newspaper. I agree with all the other releases and handouts from interested parties, pressure solutions that the hon. Gentleman put forward. groups and business, rather than inquiring journalism. I hope that we will hear from the Minister what can That will mean a less adequate democracy, less information be done. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for and a less informed public. It will also mean the breakdown Hayes and Harlington that we must try to reconvene the of training schemes such as the Northcliffe schemes. meeting he mentioned. We need a national meeting of the newspaper chains, with all parties represented, to We know why all this is happening. Adverts are being devise a strategy for local newspapers in the years diverted on to the internet and their number is down, ahead. Something has to be done. They cannot be because of the recession. It is also because the management allowed to drift downhill in the way they have been. of the newspapers have been far too greedy. The chief executive of Newsquest is paid more that £500,000 in annual salary, when journalists are paid £21,000 on 3.34 pm average. It is scandalous that such highly paid management Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): It is a are firing journalists all over the country to cut costs, pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I which also cuts the quality of local newspapers. Newsquest extend my congratulations to the hon. Member for staff have not had a pay rise for three of the past four Burton (Andrew Griffiths). I know that he has an years. Executive remuneration at the Johnston Press is exceptionally beautiful constituency, because once upon £2.5 million, but its losses for 2011 are registered as a time I applied to be the Labour candidate there. I am £144 million—the management are well paid for running sure that we will take it back from him—notwithstanding a major loss. the good speech he made this afternoon. My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington Many hon. Members have pointed to the great (John McDonnell) gave the example of Yattendon Holdings, importance of local newspapers to local communities. the controlling group of Iliffe News and Media. It was That is partly because such newspapers hold democratic involved in a tax scam, which Her Majesty’s Revenue institutions—councils and health authorities—to account 301WH Regional Newspapers5 DECEMBER 2012 Regional Newspapers 302WH and report on courts. If local newspapers are not there, I hope that the Minister will not suggest that the no one will do that vital work. It is also partly about independent self-regulation he wants will be less burdensome building local identities. Notwithstanding whatever than the statutory backing that we are looking for marvellous local newspapers hon. Members have, none because, if I may say so, that would undermine the could be better than the inestimable Teesdale Mercury. Government’s case that the independent self-regulation Like The Northern Echo, which has run some extremely they are negotiating with newspaper editors will be successful campaigns—it is running campaigns against sufficiently tough. In this discussion, let us not pretend the cuts from the Department for Education as we that statutory underpinning would have a significantly speak—it is a fantastic local newspaper. different economic impact on regional newspapers. I remind hon. Members, who may not have read all We have consensus over the importance and significance 4,000 pages of the Leveson report— of local newspapers, but these are challenging times. Circulation of local newspapers has fallen in every year Andrew Griffiths: Two thousand. since 2005 and it is difficult for the newspapers to deal with the secular trends. The move to the web is obviously Helen Goodman: In thousands of pages, Lord Leveson a major structural challenge, not only in terms of people has proposed that when newspapers that have joined getting their news from the web, Twitter, social media the independent body are sued for defamation, they and so forth, but due to the very significant loss in should first go to a simple arbitration system—that advertising revenue from people advertising on websites—to would be much less burdensome for people than going my mind somewhat foolishly. If someone has a piano to to court—and, in such cases, newspapers would have sell, for example, it is much better to advertise in the the advantage of lower costs, as would the victims who local newspaper, because somebody who is near enough were seeking redress. Signing up to the system would to come and collect it might decide to buy it. therefore reduce the cost of fighting defamation cases for newspapers, which is the incentive for them to There are secular trends and background issues, but, join it. as my hon. Friends the Members for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) The quid pro quo that Lord Leveson has suggested is pointed out, the behaviour of some of the large newspaper that, for the new arbitration system to be regarded as chains has not helped the situation. One problem has valid, the new independent self-regulator must be truly been that they were looking for rates of return that were independent and must follow certain criteria. We are simply not sustainable. Twenty years ago, some local agreed that we do not want the new regulator to be newspapers were making 30%, so the big international particularly bureaucratic or burdensome. As we have chains, which my hon. Friends mentioned, borrowed heard, although such newspapers as the Teesdale Mercury money from the banks to buy more newspapers. They are owned by individuals, others are part of large chains promised the banks that those huge returns, which I that have resources. We need to attend to that argument, shall set in context, would continue. but it is not a clincher. It is reasonable to consider whether fines should be Last year, Johnston Press made a 12% return before proportionate to turnover, rather than the Daily Mail tax. In any other area of economic life, 12% would be a being given the same fine as the Teesdale Mercury, fantastic return. Compare it to Tesco, the most successful which is plainly not sensible. We should look at that, as retailer in Britain—from a profit point of view—which we should at having less bureaucracy. We also need to made 6%. The reason the newspaper industry is in a consider the possibility raised in The Observer at the mess is because its business model requires it to keep weekend about whether, within the Leveson framework, paying masses of interest to the banks. That is why they local newspapers might have a different independent are stripping out the assets, stripping out the quality self-regulator. I do not know whether that is a good journalism, which my hon. Friends mentioned, and idea, but it should be explored in the cross-party talks. getting rid of the printing presses, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) described, Will the Minister agree that independent self-regulation all of which reduces the quality. is not a punishment? It is not about punishing people, but about setting up a stable new system that will I support hon. Members who called for a meeting to balance the importance of a free press with the need for discuss the issues, because we need to look constructively a proper system of redress for victims. I hope that he at financial models that reflect economic realities. The will also confirm that whether or not we have statutory economic reality is that they are making 12% and underpinning is irrelevant to how bureaucratic the new people want to buy their local newspaper, but the finances system is, and that we are all looking to have as have been messed up—to put it as politely as possible. unbureaucratic a system as possible. I shall turn to the proposals in Lord Justice Leveson’s Finally, to return to previous discussions about local report. The Minister has been involved in recent negotiations newspapers, I do not think we have yet heard the between the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Government’s view on traffic notices. I am sure that the Culture, Media and Sport and the newspaper editors, so Minister will recall that utilities and local authorities I wish to ask him a couple of questions about how the are currently required to put notices about digging up negotiations are coming along. Across the parties, we the roads into local newspapers, which is a major source are agreed that, after the tragic treatment of the Dowlers of income for some of them. There has been some and the McCanns and the scandals uncovered by Lord concern about the suggestion that those notices should Justice Leveson, we need to move to a new system. We move to the web, meaning that that income would fall. are agreed that we need independent self-regulation, but I again congratulate the hon. Member for Burton on the Opposition have yet to persuade the Government securing this debate. I was pleased to hear my hon. that that should be underpinned by statute. Lord Justice Friends’ analysis of the situation, and I look forward to Leveson has set out how that might be done. hearing the Minister’s answers to my questions. 303WH Regional Newspapers5 DECEMBER 2012 Regional Newspapers 304WH

3.45 pm functions, they tell me that it is run by the Conservative party. The Wantage and Grove Herald is, therefore, clearly The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, doing its job. Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I want to make a serious point, as I start the main body of my speech. At a time of economic austerity—we I thank all hon. Members for their participation in have talked about the perfect storm for local newspapers this important debate and my hon. Friend the Member of facing a recession at the same time that the rise of for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) for securing it. It encapsulates new technology is completely disrupting their business both the threat to and the opportunity for local newspapers models—Newsquest, which owns The Wantage and Grove that, as each hon. Member spoke, I was able to visit Herald and its sister paper the Oxford Mail, has invested their local newspaper website to see what they have in new plants and machinery, and now prints a range of been up to and the quality of the local newspapers they local papers, not just its own. The editor, Simon O’Neill, extolled. For example, I was impressed that the Burton who now oversees several local papers, has always been Mail has already reported this debate. It reported my keen to stress to me at our meetings that Newsquest hon. Friend’s remarks on Monday—it is a telepathic, continues to invest in local journalism. The organisation future-gazing newspaper. I do not want to get involved does not have the same number of bodies on the ground in local newspaper politics, but it seems to leave the that it had when I became a candidate 10 years ago, Uttoxeter Advertiser in the dust. However, its report of which is an interesting snapshot of the rapid change the Christmas lights being turned on—not by my hon. that has come upon local newspapers. None the less, it Friend, but by the mayor—recorded my hon. Friend’s is focused on maintaining the quality of its local journalism. attendance in suitably deferential fashion. Let me briefly record some of the issues that the I shall move on to what the hon. Member for Hayes Government as a whole have considered. We have had and Harlington (John McDonnell) said about cross-party several debates about local newspapers in the House talks on the future of regional newspapers, but I must since I have been the Minister. We also often debate—such correct—I do not know how to put this in parliamentary debates are always well attended—any threats to local terms, Mr Hood—what was a factual inaccuracy. The media, including to local newspapers or to BBC local hon. Gentleman said that I had moved from Opposition radio, which were on the horizon a few months ago. to a ministerial car. I have never had, do not have and One of the first acts of my right hon. Friend the will never have a ministerial car, because it is important Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government that Departments save money, and the Department for was to revise the local publicity code. Hon. Members Culture, Media and Sport has halved its ministerial will be aware that more than 18 months ago that code budget. was revised by delegated legislation to reduce the number My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire of council free sheets. That was to ensure that the free (Glyn Davies) made a suitably spontaneous speech. I sheets, which were becoming ever more sophisticated am not sure that he praised the Shropshire Star,solet and which were financed by council tax payers, did not me do so for him. I notice that its editorial backed him compete overtly with local newspapers. I have seen the strongly on a matter of recent controversy. The hon. change where I live in west London, which had a Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) mentioned powerful local council newspaper. That now comes the Sunderland Echo, which is also a fine newspaper. within the local newspaper as a free sheet and therefore Even though she has been in the House for only two now supports the local newspaper. and a half years, she has already racked up almost We also changed the local media ownership rules to 300 entries on its website. ensure that there was a possibility of local newspaper Although I welcomed the hon. Member for Rochdale groups looking across platforms as technology changed (Simon Danczuk) to the Chamber, I pointed out that he to try to remove the artificial silos that kept radio, must engage more closely with the digital strategy of his television and newspapers apart. At a time of booming local paper, the Rochdale Observer. Despite the “page media, and without the internet, such controls were not found” message, I at least picked up that he is perfectly understandable, but when consolidation and the making the town centre his priority. I was also pleased, need to compete with the internet became a concern for in relation to another part of my brief, that Rochdale is the industry, it was important to get rid of those controls. looking to create a cultural quarter, if there is anything Local television will provide new opportunities for I can do to help him with that. local media coverage. I am delighted to say that we have I would have praised the Grimsby Telegraph were the state aid clearance today—it happened just in time for hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) still this debate—which will go up on the Department for here—I gather that he has gone to meet his grandchildren, Culture Media and Sport website as we speak. for which he apologised to me before he left—and I The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland mentioned would have pressed him on his campaign to save Scartho traffic notices. I note that the Department for Transport baths. Finally, I can only endorse and agree with the consultation closed in April, but it has, in the run-up to hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) this debate, been unable to update us on how it will deal about the quality of the Teesdale Mercury. with the thorny issue of, on the one hand, wanting to Given all that, it will not surprise hon. Members that save councils’ money and, on the other, not wanting to I will talk about The Wantage and Grove Herald.Itisan undermine the financial support on which local newspapers interesting quality of newspapers—I am sure that all depend, because they depend to a certain extent on hon. Members have had the same experience—that if I public notices. talk to my Conservative activists, they tell me that The I want to take up the point made by my hon. Friend Wantage and Grove Herald is run by the Liberal Democrats, the Member for Burton—the central thesis of his debate and if I talk to the Liberal Democrat activists at civic was that Government should co-ordinate more closely 305WH Regional Newspapers5 DECEMBER 2012 Regional Newspapers 306WH in support of local newspapers—and the point made by gateway and gets local coverage, but it does not have to the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington in referring deal with 30 different local radio stations. Similarly, it to the meeting that we sought to have with local newspaper must be right that local newspapers, subject to competition owners. I will not share the language of the hon. Gentleman, law and other important aspects, are able to come but I did note with interest that only Johnston Press together to make one offer to national companies which took up the invitation to attend that meeting. More can then do a local advertising campaign but on a than 50 hon. Members also turned up, so local newspapers national basis. and local newspaper owners cannot complain about a Finally, I come to the issue of the Leveson report. It lack of interest or support from the House of Commons is certainly in the Leveson report, and echoed by the and Parliament, which is an important point to make. reaction of all of us to the Leveson report, that regional Some people might not have turned up at the meeting and local newspapers are different from the national for fear of getting a bit of a bashing; they might have press. My local editor has made that point time and been bashed about their salaries because it would probably again, saying, “Please do not tar us with the same have been at chief executive level, or about job cuts. In brush.” reality, the meeting was very constructive because it I welcome what the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland enabled Johnston Press to explain its strategy and how said about the Leveson report. It is important that we it was accommodating the digital revolution and investing continue the cross-party talks. She raised the issue of in local websites and how it wanted to continue with a whether fines should be based on turnover, which was print strategy, and it enabled local Members to express an encapsulation of why it is important to have a their views. I think, dare I say it in the privacy of this discussion and to sort out the important details. I was Chamber—obviously no one will be reporting this debate— not clear whether she was saying that there should a that local Members of Parliament are very good sources separate independent regulator for local newspapers, of advice; they know their area and their constituents but I certainly echo her point that this regulator is not a and they are avid readers of their local newspaper, so it punishment but a recognition that the previous system is possible to get feedback. did not work. As the Prime Minister and my hon. I will certainly take up the idea of a dual invitation, Friend the Secretary of State have said time and again, and consider it over Christmas and the new year. It will the status quo is not an option. I certainly hear what she bring together Ministers from relevant Departments says about statutory underpinnings being irrelevant to and local newspaper companies. I will happily discuss whether any regulator is bureaucratic. with my hon. Friend which Departments he thinks would The Society of Editors was present at the round table be worth engaging with. I hasten to say that, having meeting that was convened by my right hon. Friend the worked for the Secretary of State for Communities and Secretary of State and attended by the Prime Minister, Local Government, his contacts with certain Departments and it was certainly an important part of the debate. are much better than mine. I am happy to convene that The national press is moving quickly. It has heard the meeting on a cross-party basis. I try to conduct quite a message loud and clear. I can only say, based on reports lot of my work in that way because many of these issues on The Guardian website—if it is in The Guardian it go across the parties; we all have an interest in securing must be true—that it sounds like the talks at the meeting the future of local newspapers. It will be important to of national editors this morning were very constructive. have a constructive discussion. The debate has certainly been timely. I notice in The Most Members and the proprietors who attend the Burton Mail, which has telepathic powers, that we will meeting will start with the basic principles that these are have a debate on this matter in the main Chamber at private companies making their own way in the world, some point, driven by my hon. Friend the Member for but which, at the same time, have a very important role Burton. The debate has encapsulated the fact that all in local communities. It is, therefore, perfectly proper hon. Members are passionate about their local papers. and valid for Ministers and Members of Parliament to They recognise their place in the local community and come together to discuss their future and see what can in our local democracy. We want to work together with be done to make a difference. It is important, though, local newspapers to explore their future. The Government that the future of local newspapers rests primarily with will consider how they can help, but I hasten to add that local newspapers. there is no prospect of our writing cheques for local newspapers, and that is not something that local newspapers My hon. Friend made an important point about would want in the first place. We also need to consider Local World. Look at how local radio is adapting to the how local Members can feed back and engage with such current world. It remains local but offers advertisers a newspaper groups about how they are changing and national deal. A national company goes through one adapting to the digital environment. 307WH 5 DECEMBER 2012 BBC (Parliamentary Oversight) 308WH

BBC (Parliamentary Oversight) proposals, implemented together, would restore public confidence in the BBC, and as a result the BBC, Parliament and the media environment would all be enhanced. 4pm Let us make no mistake—the BBC is a vital part of British life. Yet how it works seems to be opaque, and its David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): leadership seems to be distant. I would like to see the Thank you, Mr Hood, for calling me to speak. It is a day when disgruntled members of the public can come pleasure to speak under your chairmanship. to see their MP and feel that their problems can be dealt I am grateful to have this opportunity to bring this with when they ask questions about the BBC. Similarly, debate to the Chamber. It comes at a time when many I want people to understand fully how the BBC works, people up and down the country are thinking and and for people to feel engaged with the process. talking about media regulation. It also comes against a backdrop of shocking allegations, first against commercial Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): I congratulate my media outlets and then against our own public service hon. Friend on securing this important debate. He talks broadcaster. 2012 has been a dire year for the BBC, and about the need for the BBC to be more accountable. I the recent child abuse allegations levelled against BBC am currently chairman of the all-party BBC group and stars has been described as I am aware that the BBC, through the director-general “the worst crisis to hit the corporation for 50 years.” and the chairman of the BBC Trust, already frequently appear in front of Select Committees. They also have a None of us knows the full details of what has happened, monthly drop-in session in Parliament. In addition, the and I have no desire to dwell on the allegations, but we all-party BBC group itself has meetings with the chairman do know that the BBC—like many nationalised of the BBC Trust, which are open to all MPs and peers institutions—lacks accountability to the public. I believe to attend. How does my hon. Friend see the current that we, as Members of Parliament, should now force systems marrying in with the systems of accountability the BBC to become more accountable. that he has mentioned? When I was first elected, I wrote a series of parliamentary questions about the BBC and took them to the Table David Morris: I thank my hon. Friend for that Office, only to learn that we MPs do not have the power intervention. I would like to see a meeting that takes to scrutinise the BBC. We have the right to ask about place once a month, just to discuss the mechanisms of the property portfolio of the Church of England through the BBC itself. I believe that what is already there is Church Commissioners questions, but not the right to helpful but it is not actually accountable, and accountability ask questions about our national state broadcaster. is what I would like to see. I thank my hon. Friend also That must change. for all his hard work as the chairman of the all-party I have no problem with the BBC Trust being the BBC group. governing body of the BBC, but I believe that there Similarly, I want people to understand fully how the must be some oversight by MPs. It has often been said BBC works and to feel engaged with the process. I in this House, and in wider public debate, that transparency should say at this stage that my proposals would not put and accountability improve public services. I believe politicians in charge of the BBC; that is the last thing that applies to the BBC as much as it does to any other that I want to see. I have no desire for Parliament to be state institution. In this debate, therefore, I am calling in editorial control. In fact, I have spent a great deal of for several things. The first is that the director-general’s time thinking of practical measures that would bring appointment should be confirmed by the House of openness and oversight without censorship and control. Commons. Clearly we would have to devise a system to I also note that my hon. Friend the Member for Vale do that. Perhaps it could be done by a vote of the whole of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) introduced a ten-minute House, or through a special panel or committee. I am rule Bill on 21 November demanding that the BBC agnostic about the system, but I think the principle is publish all spending over £500. That is an excellent idea vital. The director-general is an important public figure and I firmly believe that it should be implemented. All who wields huge power in this country, and it must be local authorities now publish their spending, and the the duty of Parliament to ensure that the candidate is cost of doing that has been minimal. Most local authorities the right choice for both the BBC and the country, began publishing spending details long before they were while the BBC has to accept that this appointment is forced to by the Government, so why should the BBC one the most significant public sector appointments, wait for legislation on this issue? It should publish this and act accordingly. information now. I am sure that if it did so, my hon. Secondly, MPs should have the right to table Friend would feel not that the BBC had stolen his parliamentary questions to the BBC and the BBC should thunder but rather that it had done the right thing have a duty to answer them. I do not mind if those without the need for legislation. Such a move would answers are only written answers; the important thing is create greater transparency with little more than the that we can bring in greater openness. Obviously, answering stroke of a pen. Why should the BBC be afraid of the questions would have a cost associated with it, but I public seeing this information? believe that that cost is a small price to pay for greater I also believe that, as part of disclosure, the BBC accountability. should publish all salaries over £100,000, giving the Thirdly, the Select Committee on Culture, Media and public the ability to debate those salaries and judge Sport should have regular insight into the actions of whether they represent good value for money. One both the BBC and the BBC Trust. That should be example is the high salary of Mark Thompson, the formalised into a system, rather than meetings being former director-general. In his final year of employment held on an ad hoc basis. I believe that those three with the BBC, he was paid £671,000. We are told that he 309WH BBC (Parliamentary Oversight)5 DECEMBER 2012 BBC (Parliamentary Oversight) 310WH was paid that amount because his job was a difficult and culture cannot and should not be underestimated. one, and I am sure that it is. But is it five times harder In the context of recent events, which I will come to in a than being Prime Minister, or three times more challenging minute, it would be all too easy to forget the positive than being the President of the United States? I am not impact that the BBC has on a daily basis. For example, convinced that it is, but in any case if all these salaries the BBC World Service, the world’s largest international are published the public can decide. After all, this broadcaster, provides services in 27 languages to about money is not the BBC’s money but taxpayers’ money, 180 million people worldwide, and the service’s future and we have a duty to let them know how it is spent. has been secured by its funding being incorporated As I said at the outset, 2012 has been a disaster for within the BBC’s licence fee settlement. the British media. Many terrible allegations have been made. However, let us not just lament those problems; Alun Cairns: I pay tribute to the Minister’s work in let us move on. This period of public interest is a real supporting and scrutinising the BBC. He has rightly opportunity for change. The BBC refers to itself as highlighted the World Service’s excellent work. I see it “Auntie”—a lovable and dependable figure—but its as a positive step that funding for the service has been trusted status cannot be boundless. transferred from the Foreign Office to the BBC, but does the Minister agree that the situation is now somewhat Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I pay tribute inequitable, because when the funding was with the to my hon. Friend for proposing this debate and I Foreign Office the National Audit Office had unrestricted congratulate him on securing it. Does he accept that the access to the accounts but now the BBC Trust has to BBC has a great opportunity to make itself as open and agree to the auditing of various elements of the service? transparent as so many other public bodies, which would send a strong message of good will and of doing Mr Vaizey: It is important that the BBC World Service the right thing in very difficult circumstances? Does he has an element of independence from Government, so also agree that we need not wait either for any legislative the move was the right one to make. In addition, savings changes or for any of the conclusions of the BBC’s can be found by combining the budgets for domestic internal report? As a strong friend and fan of the BBC, radio and the work of the World Service, for example in I must say that opening up would simply be doing the relation to the use of equipment and technicians. It was right thing. the right move in that it provided an effective settlement for the World Service at a time of economic austerity, David Morris: I thank my hon. Friend for expressing but I hear my hon. Friend’s point about the National those sentiments. Actually, I was right at the end of my Audit Office and I will turn to that issue later—it comes speech, and I am thankful to him for making his up time and again. intervention because I could not have put what he just I want to make clear this Government’s firm commitment said more eloquently than he did. I commend him for to the long-standing principle, which is of the utmost that. importance, that the BBC must be independent of I think we all agree that the BBC has a position of Government and of political intervention. The political trust and that it must be managed responsibly. As such, independence of the media is a live subject both in the I hope that the BBC will welcome my proposals. House and outside, so it is important to reiterate that principle. The political independence of all media is key to any healthy democracy, and the Government must 4.8 pm always ensure that such independence is secured and, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, where possible, strengthened. Independence, however, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Thank you, does not mean that the BBC, or indeed any broadcaster, Mr Hood, for calling me to speak. It is an honour to should be unaccountable for its actions. Because of the serve under your chairmanship for the second time today. unique way in which it is funded and owned, the BBC I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for should be accountable, and primarily to licence fee payers. Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris) on securing I shall put that remark in context. The BBC is a public this debate, and I thank him for providing the House with corporation established by a royal charter and framework an opportunity to discuss—albeit briefly—parliamentary agreement, which sets out the role, responsibilities and oversight of the BBC. I think that he only came in for governance of the BBC. Within the framework of that the tail-end of the previous debate on local newspapers, charter and agreement, the BBC is editorially and in which I also spoke for the Government, so he may operationally independent of Government and, rightly, not get it when I say that I have not had time to look there is no provision for the Government to intervene in him up in his local newspaper on my tablet. However, I the BBC’s day-to-day activities. am sure that he would not miss an opportunity at some The current BBC charter gives responsibility for the point to praise the work of his own local newspaper. governance of the BBC to the BBC Trust. The duties of My hon. Friend made a valid and well judged speech, the trust, as enshrined in the charter, include representing and he made it clear that there is almost universal licence fee payers, ensuring that the independence of support for the BBC in the House, and indeed in the the BBC is maintained and assessing the views of licence country. However, that does not prevent anyone— fee payers. We believe that those principles, alongside particularly MPs—from bringing forward their concerns the others set out in the charter and agreement, provide regarding the BBC, particularly about the oversight and a strong, open and transparent framework of accountability scrutiny of the BBC and how it operates. to licence fee payers. The BBC is a hugely important global institution, We have recently reinforced the oversight of the BBC. and its value to the UK not only as a content creator of During the last licence fee settlement we introduced the highest calibre but as a promoter of the UK’s values new mechanisms to further strengthen the BBC’s financial 311WH BBC (Parliamentary Oversight)5 DECEMBER 2012 BBC (Parliamentary Oversight) 312WH

[Mr Vaizey] On parliamentary accountability, it is true that the chairman of the BBC Trust and the acting director-general accountability, and the National Audit Office is now appeared before the Select Committee on 27 November. empowered to conduct a value-for-money review of the The previous director-general appeared on 23 October, BBC. We understand the point made by my hon. Friend and the director-general before that—that shows how the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns). It is fast things are moving—appeared on 19 June 2012. The important that the National Audit Office works with BBC Trust appeared before the Public Accounts Committee the BBC, but it does have access to the BBC’s finances. on 22 November, and other BBC executives appeared before that Committee in July. Also, the BBC has made John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I appearances over the past year or so before the Select think that many Members from across the House have Committee on Foreign Affairs, the Lords Communications welcomed the National Audit Office’s involvement, but Committee, the Select Committee on Justice and the there seems to be a disconnect between the audit that Administration Committee. goes on at that office and the trust having a role in I think the chairman of the BBC Trust behaved in an ensuring that there is some financial accountability. appropriate fashion when he appeared before the Culture, There seems to be a lack of expertise on the trust’s Media and Sport Committee and answered its questions. board with which to translate the audit information, or He is a man of deep experience and robust views, and the understanding of it, into action. that Select Committee is capable of offering challenging I will give a brief example. The National Union of points to him. Having known him for some time, I Journalists has, over the past week or two, pointed out know he is capable of responding to those challenging that the cuts in the number of journalists and the points. outsourcing that have taken place have resulted in some In addition to the BBC Trust and the new powers for of the BBC’s recent failings. In comparison, however, the National Audit Office—again, those powers being BBC management have collected £3 million in car to conduct a value-for-money review of the BBC, which allowances—even if they do not drive—£2 million in is an important point of progress—the BBC is also private health care and £4.7 million in golden goodbyes. subject to the regulatory oversight of Ofcom, which can The information provided by audit does not seem to be sanction it for breaches of the broadcasting codes. That translated by the Trust into actions to control management is, of course, with the exception of compliance with expenditure. accuracy and impartiality, which are still matters for the trust. Mr Vaizey: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says Returning to parliamentary scrutiny, which is at the about the expertise of the BBC Trust. The way of heart of the debate, the BBC charter sets out two dodging his point would be to say that that is a matter mechanisms under which the appointment of the director- for the trust. It would not be right for me to interfere or general can be made. It can be made by the BBC Trust, to comment on appointments to the trust. The appointment whereby the director-general shall also operate as chairman process is independent and ensures that members of the of the executive board, or by the chairman of the trust are appointed without political interference. The executive board, if that role is held by a non-executive chairman of the trust is appointed by the Secretary of appointed by the trust. At this time, we see little benefit State and the appointment is approved by the Prime of either the Government or Parliament having a role, Minister, but the hon. Gentleman should perhaps contact whether through consultation or ratification, in the the chairman of the trust to raise his concerns and to appointment of the director-general. Indeed, such a explain why he feels that the trust is not doing enough proposal has the potential to make the most important to examine the BBC’s finances. appointment at the BBC—a position that, as we know only too well from recent events, crucially includes the Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I worked for the role of editor-in-chief—political, which could undermine BBC for nine years, so I speak from a position of the principles of an independent BBC. experience. How does the Minister feel the chairman of the BBC Trust regarded MPs when he most recently That is not to say that Parliament should not have stood before them in the Culture, Media and Sport overview of a public institution as important as the Committee? BBC. Of course, we entirely support the right of Parliament to question the decisions made by the BBC and the Mr Vaizey: I was not aware that my hon. Friend had trust, including in debates such as this one. In the past worked for the BBC before entering the House of three months, senior BBC figures have appeared before Commons. Given the qualifications of the BBC’s new at least two parliamentary Committees. director-general, who worked there and then left for an Finally, we recognise that it is necessary to put this outside organisation, it seems inevitable that my hon. debate in the context of recent events at the BBC, and Friend will one day end up as director-general, once most importantly of how the BBC responds to the Tony Hall has served his term. significant loss of public confidence. We have been clear In a sense, the element of parliamentary oversight of that the primary objective of the BBC Trust at this time the BBC— must be to rebuild the public’s trust in the BBC, and I know that Lord Patten agrees. To that end, we have set Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. I am sure that the out three things we believe the BBC Trust needs to Minister is just swivelling, but I am seeing too much of achieve. his back. First, the immediate task must be to address the failings in the editorial process, particularly at “Newsnight”, Mr Vaizey: I am so sorry, Mr Hood. I will address in order to restore public confidence. The trust needs to you. act swiftly to ensure that the management and leadership 313WH BBC (Parliamentary Oversight) 5 DECEMBER 2012 314WH issues are resolved and that the failings cannot be Work Capability Reassessments repeated. It is clear from what the interim director-general has said that the BBC is looking seriously at what went wrong, where responsibility lies and how to address the 4.30 pm matter in the long term, and the Government welcome that. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): It is a pleasure Secondly, the trust must ensure that a strong and to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. Everybody stable executive board is in place to manage the BBC. here is probably familiar with some of the issues relating To that end, we welcome the appointment of Tony Hall to the employment and support allowance and the work as director-general of the BBC. He has a strong track capability assessment. Between the introduction of the record and extensive experience inside and outside the assessment in October 2008 and August 2011, 1.15 million BBC, and it is important that he works hard to maintain new claimants were assessed and 687,000 were declared public confidence in the corporation. fit for work. Of those, 102,500 successfully appealed their decision and were awarded ESA. That means that Thirdly, we must not lose sight of the inquiries into 9% of all ESA assessments have been overturned. When what is at the heart of these events. None of the we look at assessments leading to fit for work decisions, developments in recent days should overshadow the the figure rises to 15%. Although the proportion of investigations into the alleged horrendous abuse of children decisions overturned has started to fall, the overall in institutions across our country. It is vital that the number still remains extremely high. BBC responds correctly and decisively to the Pollard inquiry into the decision to drop the “Newsnight” item Those figures do not include all the incapacity benefit on Savile, and to the Smith inquiry on Savile’s abuses claimants currently being migrated to ESA, a process and the culture and practices of the BBC. We must wait that started last year and is due to be completed in 2014. until those investigations have concluded and consideration The figures published recently cover claims only after has been given to their findings. At this time, however, appeals have been taken into account—they have been we see no evidence that suggests that greater oversight published on a different basis—so we have no data on of the BBC by Parliament would have had any impact how many claimants in the migration are originally on recent events. Even if that case could be made, we declared fit for work and then appeal, and how many of must balance any benefits of such oversight against the those appeals are successful. Although that is not precisely impact on the BBC’s independence. the subject of this debate, I hope that the Minister will I reiterate that the chairman of the BBC Trust, regardless see to it that we have more comprehensive and comparable of how hon. Members regard his demeanour before the data in future. Culture, Media and Sport Committee, did come to be The number of incorrect assessments and successful questioned and examined by that Committee, as did the appeals is still high. Like many of my colleagues, I have previous director-general. been considering a number of different aspects of the We are all rightly proud of what a strong, independent issue. Earlier this year, I secured a debate here in Westminster BBC can achieve, and we should take the opportunity Hall on the work capability assessment. On that occasion, to preserve and strengthen those qualities for the good I focused on the recommendations for new mental, of all licence fee payers. intellectual and cognitive descriptors drawn up by Mencap, Mind and the National Autistic Society. Although the 4.23 pm descriptors are certainly not the only issue that needs Sitting suspended. addressing, they could have gone a long way to improving the assessment process. Professor Harrington approved and submitted the descriptors to the Department for Work and Pensions in spring 2011. It is frustrating that officials are only now getting down to assessing properly whether the descriptors would improve the WCA, and we will not get the results of that so-called gold standard review until next summer. There will have been more than two years of delay since the proposals were published.

John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I preface my remarks by thanking my hon. Friend for the work that she has done on the issue over a long period. Is her experience the same as mine? The largest number of constituents with whom I deal who have lost their benefits, and those with the most distressing cases, are those with mental health problems and those on the autistic spectrum.

Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. That is the case. There is a flaw in how the original test was drawn up if it is not accounting properly for those types of condition. That is why it needs to be examined. 315WH Work Capability Reassessments 5 DECEMBER 2012 316WH

Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): On that point, one reassessed in six months. I do not think that the Prime of my constituents, a former careers adviser, had a Minister understood the question that I was asking; he breakdown that led to depression and panic attacks. He gave me an answer about disability living allowance was assessed as fit for work—by a physiotherapist. rather than employment and support allowance. Before the Minister says, “That was then; that was Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for contributing 2011, and we have made so many improvements that it that example. We must look at such situations carefully. isn’t happening any more,” only two weeks ago, I visited The process of reviewing the new descriptors is finally a constituent whom I had not met before who told me a under way—although I suspect that we will return to it similar story of having applied, being refused and appealing, in due course—so I will concentrate on appeals and the and who within a relatively short time had to go through time between assessment and reassessment. One of the another assessment. most common stories that I hear from constituents is that they are found fit for work, wait several months for Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): My hon. Friend is an appeal, get ESA and are then called back for a being generous with her time. Does she agree that it further assessment, sometimes just weeks and often seems to be utter nonsense? There is a lack of only two or three months later. That is one of the most understanding. If people have progressive illnesses or visible flaws in how the system works. permanent conditions, they will not be any more fit for work in a few months’ time. It seems to be one of the Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend absolute immoralities of the system that people who agree that not only is the waste of money enormous, cannot ever work continue to be called back for given that so many are granted benefit on appeal, but reassessments. that given all the cuts to citizens advice bureaux, it is difficult for people to get the right support going into a Sheila Gilmore: That leads me neatly into my next frightening tribunal situation? point. I followed up with a written question, and the then Minister of State for the Department of Work and Sheila Gilmore: My hon. Friend raises an important Pensions—now Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State point. There is evidence that people who are represented for Justice—set out the official line, which is that the are more likely to be successful than those who are period between assessments is known as a prognosis unable to get representation. time and is determined by the decision maker at the That is the context for the issue of reassessment: the time when they decide whether someone is fit for work high volume of appeals means that people must wait or should be given ESA. The clock starts ticking on the long periods for a hearing and a decision. In answer to date of the original decision. a written question last month, the Under-Secretary of My immediate question is why someone found fit for State for Justice, the hon. Member for Maidstone and work would be given a prognosis time in the first place. The Weald (Mrs Grant) said: Hon. Members might think that that would not be “During the period 1 April to 30 June 2012 (the latest period necessary, because the assumption is that the person for which data has been published) the average time taken from will be moving on to jobseeker’s allowance. The only receipt of an ESA appeal by the SSCS Tribunal to disposal was 19 reason that I can envisage for that is that prognosis weeks”.—[Official Report, 19 November 2012; Vol. 553, c. 307W.] times are, in effect, a precautionary measure in the event However, that 19 weeks is not the average waiting time that if a claimant successfully appeals, as so many do, for an individual making an appeal but merely the and is awarded ESA, a prognosis time is ready. But if average time it takes the Tribunals Service to process the the decision maker’s original determination that the appeal after it receives the papers. Before it even receives claimant was fit for work is overturned, why should we the papers, an appeal must be lodged with the DWP, the put any faith in the corresponding determination on relevant decision maker has to perform a series of what the prognosis time should be? If the decision on a checks and the Department must prepare and submit claimant’s being fit for work was wrong, surely one its response. imagines that the decision on the prognosis time would There is no time limit for DWP to prepare its response be wrong. to an appeal. In a written answer to a question from me It would make much more sense for those who are in February this year, the then Justice Minister, the hon. declared fit for work to be given no prognosis time and, Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), indicated that in the event of a successful appeal, for the judges to be between June 2010 and May 2011, the average time it given a responsibility for settling the matter when making took from the submission of an appeal to DWP to receipt their new decision. If that is not thought possible, the of the papers by the Tribunals Service was 8.1 weeks. If prognosis times should only kick in after a successful we add that to the average of 19 weeks, we are looking appeal and should not start from the time of the original at about 27 weeks. Over and above that, individuals will decision, because that is putting people on a rapid have submitted an application and undergone an roundabout. assessment. In 2011, they had to wait seven weeks for During the summer, my hopes were raised that the the result of that assessment, although I know from Government might have seen the contradictions in the talking to my colleagues that many people encounter current arrangements. In an interview for the BBC much longer waits. “Panorama” documentary in July 2011, the then What does all that mean in practice? I raised an Minister—now Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State example during Prime Minister’s questions on 2 March for Justice—said, last year. A constituent of mine had a young adult son “It’s been apparent to me in the last few months that we were who was severely autistic but had been found fit for calling people back too regularly and I’ve instructed the officials work, and who appealed successfully. The process took that operate the system to actually make sure that we leave a 10 months, and he was told that he would have to be much more sensible gap in between the two.” 317WH Work Capability Reassessments5 DECEMBER 2012 Work Capability Reassessments 318WH

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. oral questions, consisting too much of saying, “You Lady for being a champion of this cause. I have a staff introduced it”, which did not get to the crux of these member who looks after nothing else but ESA and issues. DLA appeals, because of the volume of those coming It would help if the Minister provided clarity on the in. That is one of my great concerns. For descriptors, following points. Do decision makers set prognosis they ask them, “Can you move the box from here to times for claimants found fit for work? If so, why are there?” or “Can you hold the pint of milk?” Those those not overturned when this happens to corresponding descriptors do not apply to blind people, to people with fit-for-work decisions? Can judges set new prognosis depression or to those with severe mobility and other times when they overturn decisions? What role do decision issues. Does the hon. Lady feel that the Government makers have with respect to prognosis times following could look upon this matter more favourably and ensure successful appeals? that people have a report from a general practitioner, Finally, I seek an update on the apparent instruction the person who medically knows them best of all? from the former Minister to civil servants that the time between reassessments should be reduced. A central Sheila Gilmore: Without a doubt, that is one way that recommendation of Professor Harrington’s first report it could be done. The flaws of the system include was that the WCA should be more compassionate and whether people are able to present information, when it empathetic, and this will only be achieved once Ministers is accepted and how it is used. intervene and stop people being called back for It seemed that the former Minister at least was prepared reassessments immediately after successful appeals. to move in respect of people’s being called back too quickly. I put this issue to the new Minister at the Select 4.45 pm Committee on Work and Pensions evidence session The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work held on 21 November, but I did not get a particularly and Pensions (Esther McVey): I thank the hon. Member helpful response. The Minister said, for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore)for calling this “There is the opportunity for the tribunal to make a debate, and thank all hon. Members who contributed recommendation”, so constructively. The matter is of great importance to which suggests that the tribunal could do that, but he the hon. Lady, who has raised the concerns on many then said, occasions. “When that recommendation is made, it is something that the The Minister for Employment, the lead Minister decision maker should take into account. I think there is also an responsible for the work capability assessment policy, is issue about at what point of time is the tribunal disputing DWP’s on Government business in Brussels today and has decision.” asked me to pass on his apologies. I will answer questions Should they be looking at as fully as I can, but if I do not answer in as much depth as hon. Members would like, a full written response will “the point in time the decision was made, which could be nine follow. months earlier…or is it based on what they saw on the day in the tribunal? So there is a lack of clarity there, but I think we should I understand the concerns for people who are claiming take a fairly clear view about when reassessments should take and who appear to be called back for reassessment soon place, and it is an area that decision makers should work on.” after a successful appeal. First, I want to make clear The Minister used a lot of words, but did not provide why it is important to call people on ESA back for clarity about our making progress on this matter. He reassessments at appropriate intervals. People are entitled was far less clear than his predecessor talking on a to ESA for as long as they satisfy the entitlement television programme. That was disappointing. Perhaps conditions. To ensure that people receive benefit correctly, the Minister will provide clarification when responding. it is important that they are called for reassessment from time to time, to ensure that they still meet the Can the judges suggest a different prognosis time? entitlement conditions. People’s health conditions can Are they given guidance as to when they should and change and we need to ensure that they remain in the should not set prognosis times? Do the Government correct group, for example, the work related activity collect statistical analysis of how often judges take up group or support group. This is a normal part of this option? If they are allowed to do so, they appear to receiving ESA and is important to ensure that people exercise that ability rarely. At what point and how are continue to receive the right support. This active approach decision makers brought back into the process once a to the benefit is crucial and is having an impact. fit-for-work decision has been overturned? If that happens, could a decision maker at that stage, as opposed to at Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): The Minister talks about appeal, suggest a new prognosis time, even if the judge the need for reassessments. Can she confirm whether has not taken up the option? What guidance is provided the Government have provided any instructions about to decision makers in this regard and are there any whether face-to-face or physical assessments are needed? statistics on it? People being assessed at a distance—the so-called “under I shall pre-empt the Minister by acknowledging that scrutiny”method—is a growing problem in my constituency. in government my party introduced ESA and the work Can she confirm whether that is a policy, because it is capability assessment. I do not raise these issues to certainly giving rise to a greater number of wrong make political points, but in a genuine attempt to get assessments? them dealt with. I have repeatedly stated that I came to this place determined to raise these issues, regardless of Esther McVey: I will come to that point a little later. who won the election. I first came across many of the The number of working-age people on ESA and issues as I was campaigning for election. I was concerned incapacity benefits as of February 2012 was 2.56 million, about a politicised response at the last Work and Pensions which is the lowest level since the introduction of IB in 319WH Work Capability Reassessments5 DECEMBER 2012 Work Capability Reassessments 320WH

[Esther McVey] Jim Shannon: In my earlier intervention, I mentioned the possibility of medical evidence being sought before 1995. Early estimates to September 2012 suggest that any decision. Have the Government considered direct overall the numbers on these benefits are further decreasing contact with the GP so that an assessment of the person and for the first time the data have gone below 2.5 million. can clearly be made on a medical basis?

Sheila Gilmore: Is the Minister aware of the research Esther McVey: As I said, all factors will be taken into that the DWP carried out for some of the early applicants account for the individual having an assessment. It is for ESA, which showed that after a year of being found true that a small number of claimants are asked to fit for work, 43% were neither on an out-of-work benefit attend a further work capability assessment as little as nor in employment? This fall in the number of people three months after a successful appeal, but only after on benefit may be the result of their simply getting careful consideration of all the available evidence by the nothing and disappearing out of the system. Is she decision maker. Our latest data show, however, that that concerned by that? only happens in around 5% of cases. As part of our ongoing commitment to continuous improvement, the Esther McVey: Of course, that would concern me; it process was reviewed, with revised guidance issued to would be of concern to anyone. Everybody will be decision makers in February 2011 to ensure that they followed up and duly represented and given sufficient were actively considering a suitable re-referral date, so support. However, we would have to look into those that claimants are called back when most appropriate numbers. Those who are on benefit get the support they for them. need, in contrast to previous approaches through which Following the recommendations from Professor they were abandoned to a lifetime on benefits. Those Harrington’s year two review, a regular audit of decision- who have been found fit for work now claim JSA, an maker performance is now conducted via the quality active benefit with a proven track record of getting assurance framework, whereby checks are made on a people into work, as the falling unemployment figures sample of ESA and IB reassessment decisions. We also have shown. conduct twice yearly calibration exercises at a national On the cases raised this evening, it is important to level to ensure consistent application of the quality note that if someone appeals against a disallowance assurance framework. More than 90% of decisions met decision, the tribunal considers the evidence, the law the required standard each month between February and the claimant’s circumstances at the time of that and September 2012. Additionally, due to changes decision. If the appeal is upheld and the claimants are introduced in July 2012, we have improved the process awarded ESA, they are quite rightly required to attend a for receiving feedback from the tribunals if the tribunal further work capability assessment in the same way as has overturned the original decision. Judges now have any other ESA claimant—the timing of the reassessment the discretion to include a recommendation of when the is the issue. It is not true that the time frame set for the next WCA should take place on the tribunal’s decision work capability assessment remains fixed by the original notice. The decision maker will take account of that decision maker when the fit-for-work decision was made. recommendation when setting the review date. If an appeal has been upheld, the date for the next I recognise that the number of appeals that the WCA is decided afresh by a decision maker; re-referral Department receives, as well as the effect on the individuals dates chosen can be three, six, 12, 18 or 24 months later, concerned, is an emotive issue. I also acknowledge that depending on when it is considered most appropriate the volume of appeals has increased significantly over for claimants to have their next contact with the recent years, but that, too, is being addressed. I want to Department. ensure that the decision making is right first time around, which was a focus of Professor Harrington’s independent Julie Hilling: What concerns me is those people who reviews of the WCA. He has made a number of will always have such a condition or who have a progressive recommendations to support such an approach to decision condition, meaning that they will only get worse. What making. As a result, we have: changed how we communicate about them? To continue to reassess them and put them with claimants, to explain the process more clearly; put through that stress feels absolutely wrong—I cannot decision makers at the heart of the process; and introduced think of a better word— the quality assessment framework to improve the quality John McDonnell: Cruel. of decisions made. We have also introduced the personalised summary statement and regional mental function Julie Hilling: Cruel, yes. Why are we doing that to champions to improve the quality of face-to-face that group of people who will never get better? assessments. If a claimant disputes a decision, however, we must Esther McVey: I completely take on board the hon. be able to resolve the dispute within the DWP, whenever Lady’s point. Part of the decision maker’s process is possible. If the dispute cannot be resolved within the that all the available information will be considered, DWP, we need to ensure that an effective and efficient including: any recommendations made by the tribunal; dispute resolution procedure is in place. The DWP and any factors the tribunal took into account in reaching Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service are working its decision; the health care professional’s advice from together to improve the quality of initial decision making the previous assessment; and any medical evidence to address the high levels of appeals while ensuring that submitted after the appeal was made. Other considerations fairness and efficiency are maintained. will include the type of limited capability for work, whether the limited capability is likely to change for Sheila Gilmore: Can the Minister address a specific better or worse and how likely any surgery or other issue? As recently as July, the former Minister appeared significant improvement is. to accept that in spite of the changes mentioned he 321WH Work Capability Reassessments5 DECEMBER 2012 Work Capability Reassessments 322WH thought that people were being called back too quickly what was happening in that regard, and I hope that she for reassessment. What has been done since July to deal can take some comfort from how clearly we are looking with that? into the matter and at how the numbers have changed. In response to the hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria Esther McVey: I thought I had dealt with that a little De Piero), who mentioned one of her constituents and earlier when discussing the decision makers and how a physiotherapist, the assessment looks at the function there is the right to look at when they feel it is appropriate and not the condition. Physios are experts in this area to call someone back, whether three, six, 12, 18 or and have comprehensive training, especially on mental 24 months later. That obviously has to be right for all, health. They are only approved and allowed to be whether the person assessed or the system as a whole. assessors if they have the necessary skills. As the hon. Lady knows, we have reviewed the process As for the critics, Professor Harrington made it clear not once, not twice, but three times under Professor in his third review: Harrington. Each time recommendations have come “All they call for is a scrapping of the WCA but with no back, and we have implemented them, so significant suggestion of what might replace it”, changes are under way. and As the hon. Lady mentioned at the start of the “to recognise that things are beginning to change positively in the debate, we inherited the situation—the system was put best interests of the individual would be helpful.” in place before this Government—but we are trying to get it right, we have brought in changes and we will Debates such as this improve the situation. continue to do so until all parts of the House and, most John McDonnell: Will the Minister meet some of importantly, those being assessed, feel we have got it those critics, such as Disabled People Against Cuts or right. Black Triangle, which has been occupying DWP offices In conclusion, I echo Professor Harrington who has and demanding meetings with Ministers? made it quite clear that the work capability assessment, designed as the “first positive step” towards work, is the Esther McVey: I am more than happy to meet them, “right concept” for assessing people who need our although they might not wish to as I am not the support. He also recognised, however, that there was a Minister responsible. I will forward the invitation and I need to improve it, which is why we accepted and have am sure, diaries permitting, that he will do so. I hope largely implemented more than 40 recommendations that today has been constructive and I thank the hon. made in his first two reviews. Member for Edinburgh East for bringing forward the Following our reforms, twice as many people go into debate. the support group now as when ESA was introduced. Question put and agreed to. The proportion of people with mental health conditions being awarded ESA has risen from 33% to 49%. I know 4.59 pm the hon. Member for Edinburgh East asked specifically Sitting adjourned.

55WS Written Ministerial Statements5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 56WS Written Ministerial Tax Mismatch Schemes The Government are introducing legislation to counter tax avoidance schemes that aim to reduce a company’s Statements liability to corporation tax through asymmetric tax treatment of loans or derivatives (tax mismatch schemes), including, although not limited to, schemes involving Wednesday 5 December 2012 companies which are members of a partnership. Due to the repeated use of partnerships and similar TREASURY collective structures in tax avoidance schemes, the Government will be considering the area of the taxation of partnerships and similar structures as part of their Customs 2020 review of high-risk areas of the tax code. Property total return swaps The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): Legislation is also being introduced to block schemes I wish to inform the House that the Government have that use property return swaps to convert capital losses opted in to the proposal for a regulation of the European within a group into income losses, and that use the Parliament and of the Council establishing an action legislation to generate capital gains which are not in programme for customs in the European Union for the proportion to those actually arising from the swap period 2014-20 (Customs 2020). contract. This proposal establishes a customs co-operation Manufactured payments programme to support the effective functioning of the The Government are introducing legislation to address internal market and operation of customs procedures schemes involving stock lending arrangements. In these within the EU by increasing co-operation between member schemes a company lends stock, and instead of receiving states. The programme aims to contribute to the Europe a manufactured payment which is taxable, for example 2020 strategy for smart, sustainable and inclusive growth, as a trade receipt, receives value in some other non-taxable by strengthening the functioning of the single market form. The draft legislation provides that the lender will and EU customs union. be taxable when value representing a manufactured The UK has benefited from participation in predecessor payment is received in any form. programmes, in particular through using Customs 2013 Payments of patent royalties activities to reduce administrative burdens for compliant businesses. The programme also funds the maintenance Legislation is also being introduced to abolish the and development of EU communication and information income tax relief for non-trade payments of patent exchange systems. This is an area where spend on royalties in order to counter an avoidance scheme which research and development can represent good EU added exploits the relief, and to simplify the tax code. There is value by providing economies of scale in the development understood to be little use of the relief by compliant of cross-EU networks. taxpayers, but anyone who thinks they will be adversely affected by this change is invited to contact HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC). Finance Bill 2013: Measures with Immediate Effect Further details on the measures listed above are contained in the draft legislation, explanatory notes The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David and “Tax Information and Impact Notes” published on Gauke): This Government are committed to delivering both the HM Treasury and HMRC websites. a progressive tax system that is affordable, fair and encourages growth. The Government are today announcing measures that will help build a fair tax system and tackle tax avoidance. The legislation for these measures will have Fiscalis 2020 effect from today and will be included in Finance Bill 2013. The protocol on announcements made outside scheduled The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): fiscal events, published at Budget 2011, sets out the I wish to inform the House that the Government have criteria the Government will observe when changing opted in to the proposal for a regulation of the European legislation with immediate effect. The Government are Parliament and of the Council establishing an action acting in accordance with the protocol in announcing programme for tax in the European Union for the the following changes to legislation. period 2014-20 (Fiscalis 2020). Bank Levy—double taxation relief This proposal establishes a tax co-operation programme The Government will introduce legislation to take to improve the functioning of taxation systems within effect from 1 January 2013 which will put beyond doubt the EU by increasing co-operation between member that foreign bank levies are not an allowable deduction states. The programme aims to contribute to the Europe for income tax or corporation tax purposes. The legislation 2020 strategy for smart, sustainable and inclusive growth, will also ensure that where a company makes a claim on by strengthening the functioning of the single market. or after today’s date for double taxation relief for a It also has the objective of driving technical progress foreign bank levy against the charge to the UK Bank and innovation in national tax administrations with the Levy, none of that foreign bank levy will be an allowable aim of developing e-tax administrations and contributing deduction for income tax or corporation tax purposes. to the establishment of a digital single market. 57WS Written Ministerial Statements5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 58WS

The UK has benefited from participation in predecessor there is a need for the function and the advisory NDPB programmes, in particular through involvement in to continue, and if so, how the function might best be multilateral controls which can assist with the detection delivered in future. The review will be led by a member of tax fraud. The programmes also fund the maintenance of the Surgeon-General’s senior staff who is not involved and development of EU communication and information with the day-to-day business of the group. exchange systems. This is an area where spend on Key stakeholders are being informed of the review research and development can represent good EU added and invited to submit views. The aim is to complete the value by providing economies of scale in the development review and announce the outcome by 31 March 2013. of cross-EU networks.

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT EDUCATION

Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre School Teachers’ Review Body

TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): My hon. Friend The “21st Report of the School Teachers’ Review Body” the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department (STRB) is being published today. Its recommendations for Communities and Local Government, Baroness Hanham, cover the issues that were referred to it in February has made the following written ministerial statement: 2012. These were about reforming teachers’ pay in order Further to the statement made to both Houses on 23 April to raise the status of the profession and contribute to 2012, a pre-market engagement exercise of the Queen Elizabeth II improving the standard of teaching in our schools. Conference Centre conference business was undertaken over the I am grateful for the careful consideration which the summer. This exercise demonstrated that there would be market STRB has given to these important matters and fully interest in running the conference business. support the guiding principles that it has used as the Since that exercise was carried out, Parliament has published basis for its recommendations. Copies of the STRB’s an initial study into options for the long-term upkeep of the 21st report are available in the Vote Office, the Printed Palace of Westminster. The report highlights a number of options for the restoration and renewal of the palace. These require Paper Office and the Libraries of both Houses, and further study, but may have implications for the future use of the online at: http://www.education.gov.uk and http:// Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre, should Parliament decide www.ome.uk.com/. that it needs the centre. The STRB has made recommendations on a pay While recognising that Parliament needs to continue to have a framework that seeks to raise the status of the profession, full range of options available, the Government have concluded support professional development, and reward individuals that current arrangements for the management of the centre in line with their contribution to improving pupil outcomes, should be maintained for the present time. This will ensure that enabling the most successful teachers to progress faster bookings can continue to be made and allow the centre to plan future business with greater certainty. Should Parliament indicate than at present on the basis of annual appraisal. It that it requires the centre in future, it has been agreed that proposes greater autonomy for schools to set teachers’ discussions will take place on time scales which recognise the pay within that broad national framework, alongside importance of the centre maintaining a viable business plan, to increased accountability for high professional standards provide assurance to potential customers. and contribution to pupil progress. I am grateful to the STRB for these recommendations and, subject to the views of consultees, I intend to DEFENCE accept all the key recommendations. I also intend to accept the more detailed recommendations and the consequential recommendations, but wish to give notice Advisory Group on Military Medicine that there are some areas to which I will wish to return in a future remit for further consideration by the STRB. This will include the application of a 1% pay uplift for The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark the two years following the end of the pay freeze, as set Francois): I am today announcing the start of the out by the Chancellor in the 2011 autumn statement. triennial review of the Advisory Group on Military The statutory minima and maxima for classroom teachers’ Medicine (AGoMM). Triennial reviews of non- pay will be uprated by 1% in each year 2013-14 and departmental public bodies (NDPBs) are part of the 2014-15. Schools are free to determine the extent of pay Government’s commitment to ensuring that NDPBs uplifts to teachers within the statutory minima and continue to have regular challenge on their remit and maxima, and will be able to provide an uplift of 1%, in governance arrangements. line with any overall uplift in pay in the public sector, if AGoMM provides independent, specialist advice to they so choose. the Ministry of Defence, as required, on the policy for As regards the recommendations on implementation, medical issues within medical force protection, and for I broadly accept these in principle, but will want to clinical treatments used on operations. consider them further before reaching firm conclusions The AGoMM review is to be conducted in accord on whether they represent the most effective and practical with Government guidance for reviewing non-departmental way of implementing the key recommendations. public bodies, and will consider the effectiveness of how My detailed response contains further information the functions of AGoMM are currently delivered, whether on the matters. 59WS Written Ministerial Statements5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 60WS

Annex to written ministerial statement On the basis of the above, a much simplified “School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions” document, including a brief guide to School Teachers’ Review Body’s (STRB’s) recommendations the national framework and the flexibilities open to schools. and response from the Secretary of State for Education. I am grateful to the STRB for its consideration of the [The following sets out the full set of recommendations from issues and, subject to consultees’ views, I intend to the STRB as published in the 21st report (CM 8487) on 5 accept all these key recommendations in full. I regard December 2012, together with the response from the Secretary of State for Education. The STRB’s recommendations below.] these recommendations as providing the framework to move towards a more flexible and simpler system, where the emphasis is on pay progression related to performance The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): and greater autonomy for schools in deciding how to The 21st report of the STRB is being published today. reward their teachers. I particularly support the aim of It covers matters referred to the STRB in February enabling the best teachers to be promoted more quickly 2012. Copies are available in the Vote Office, the Printed than is currently the case and rewarded accordingly. I Paper Office and in the Libraries of both Houses and note the STRB’s comments about these recommendations online at: http://www.education.gov.uk and http:// representing a first stage of reform and that they would www.ome.uk.com/. welcome an opportunity to consider other issues, including In making its recommendations, the STRB was asked leadership pay and teachers’ conditions, in a subsequent to review the current provisions for teachers’ pay and remit. I intend to issue a further remit to the STRB next consider; year to ask for their advice about how to implement the how the pay framework for teachers should best be made 1% pay uplift for the two years following the end of the more market facing in local areas; pay freeze. The statutory minima and maxima for classroom how the pay scales, including the main and upper pay scales, teachers’ pay will be uprated by 1% in each year 2013-14 should be reformed to more effectively link pay and performance, and 2014-15. Schools are free to determine the extent of including arrangements for progression; pay uplifts to teachers within the statutory minima and what other reforms should be made to teachers’ pay and maxima, and will be able to provide an uplift of 1%, in conditions in order to raise the status of the profession and line with any overall uplift in pay in the public sector, if best support the recruitment and retention of high-quality they so choose. teachers in all schools. The STRB has also further recommended: I am grateful for the careful consideration which the The retention, for now, of the four geographical pay bands STRB has given to these important matters. I am inviting as the starting point for recognising broad labour market comments on the STRB’s report and my response to its differences which bear widely on recruitment and retention. recommendations by 4 January 2013. Differentiated performance-based progression on the main pay scale to enable teachers to progress at different speeds, The STRB has recommended: with higher rewards and more rapid progression for the most Replacement of increments based on length of service by able teachers. differentiated progression through the main pay scale to More flexible performance-based progression to and within reward excellence and performance improvement. the upper pay scale, assessed against substantially simplified Extension to all teachers of pay progression linked to annual criteria, enabling abolition of the bureaucratic post threshold appraisal (which is already established for more senior teachers). standards. Appraisal should be against a single set of teaching standards, Local discretion to pay a higher salary to the most successful and individual objectives, with a strong emphasis on professional teachers (akin to AST) if such a post is required and meets development. simple yet demanding criteria on leading improvement of Abolition of mandatory pay points within the pay scales for teaching skills. classroom teachers, to enable individual pay decisions, but No change to the core TLR provisions already in the STPCD. with retention at present of points for reference only in the main pay scale, to guide career expectations for entrants to Fixed-term TLRs for time-limited projects, with non-safeguarded the profession. payments in a range between £500 and £2,500 per annum. Removal of the three-year time limit for recruitment and Retention of a broad national framework, including the retention, subject to a formal review by the school of all higher pay bands for London and fringe areas and an upper awards on a regular basis. pay scale as a career path for experienced teachers who make a wider contribution to the school. The Department communicate clearly to schools the scope for them to make greater use of existing discretionary recruitment Replacement of the unnecessarily detailed threshold test for and retention payments available under paragraph 50 of the progression from the main to the upper pay scale, with STPCD to respond to local market needs, including case-study simple criteria based on one set of teacher standards. This examples of good practice. will create a consistent progression path from graduate entry to the top of the upper pay scale and allow schools to The Department prepare a much simpler document for promote the best teachers more rapidly. publication in autumn 2013. Local flexibility for schools to create posts paying salaries In addition, the STRB has made a number of above the upper pay scale, enabling some of the very best consequential recommendations: teachers to remain in the classroom and lead the improvement No obligation for schools when recruiting to match a teacher’s of teaching skills. existing salary on either the main or the upper pay scales. More discretion for schools in the use of allowances for The requirement for two consecutive successful appraisals recruitment and retention and freedom to pay fixed-term for progression purposes on the upper pay scale be discontinued. responsibility allowances of up to £2,500 a year for time-limited projects. The existing post-threshold, AST and ET standards be abolished. Reinforcement of the responsibility of head teachers to The AST pay spine and ET pay range be discontinued. manage staff and resources and of governing bodies to hold school leaders to account for managing and rewarding the Again, subject to consultees’ views, I intend to accept performance of teachers in the interests of pupils. all these detailed and consequential recommendations. 61WS Written Ministerial Statements5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 62WS

I believe that these represent a significant step in the ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE process of reform and provide the scope for further flexibility at a later stage. For instance, I welcome the recommendations in respect of teaching and learning Gas Generation Strategy responsibility payments and recruitment and retention allowances, but would want to ask the STRB to revisit the whole area of allowances in a future remit. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey): I am laying today before Parliament Finally, the STRB has made a number of the Government’s gas generation strategy. Last week I recommendations about implementation. It has set out in the annual energy statement the objectives of recommended: our overarching energy policy—to keep the lights on, to The existing points on the main pay scale should become keep energy bills affordable and to cut greenhouse gas purely reference points. emissions. This needs to be delivered in a way that The Department consider how to give effect to the detailed maximises benefits to the economy in terms of jobs, recommendations on implementation, including: growth and investment. I also published details of our A clear expectation of progression to the maximum of the approach for reforming the electricity market which will main pay scale, subject to good performance; be implemented through the Energy Bill. An option for no progression without the automatic implication These reforms will deliver investment in a range of of capability proceedings; new generating plant such as offshore wind, nuclear Progression to reference point M2 for NQTs on successful power stations and carbon, capture and storage equipped completion of the induction period; generation plant. Gas-fired power stations will also be All pay progression to be dependent on a written essential to provide flexibility to complement the less recommendation based on timely completion of an annual flexible output from wind and nuclear plants. We have performance appraisal in line with the pay policy of a school. already set out our strategies for delivering increases in investment in low carbon technologies—renewables, nuclear The Department develop guidance or a tool-kit to help schools develop systematic and transparent local approaches and carbon, capture and storage. This strategy sets out to pay progression. the role we see for gas in electricity generation. A basic eligibility requirement for teachers applying for the The strategy reaffirms the Government’s expectation upper pay scale, who must be highly competent classroom that gas will continue to play a major role in our teachers who have already progressed substantially towards electricity mix over the coming decades, alongside low- the maximum of the main scale. carbon technologies as we decarbonise our electricity Criteria for access to the upper pay scale requiring candidates system. to have demonstrated: Gas currently forms an integral part of the UK’s Substantial and sustained achievement of objectives, appropriate generation mix, accounting for nearly 40% of all generation skills and competence in all elements of the teachers’ standards; in 2011. As a reliable, flexible form of generation, gas is and able to provide a range of services to support the Potential and commitment to undertake professional duties efficient functioning of our electricity network and help which make a wider contribution (which involves working with adults) beyond their own classroom. guarantee the security of electricity supply that is vital to our homes and our businesses. Gas, which emits half On the upper pay scale, the amount and timing of any the CO of coal, has also helped the UK cut our carbon progression recommendations should be at the school’s discretion, 2 reflecting individuals’ differential contributions to the school. emissions. School discretion to create a post for a teacher whose However, the need to decarbonise the UK’s electricity primary purpose is the modelling and leading improvement system will significantly impact the role of gas and we of teaching skills. Such posts should have a salary range need to provide clarity to investors about the future role fixed within the range between £37,461 and £56,950 (nationally), of gas to enable the new plant we need to get built. taking account of the challenge of the post and of internal pay relativities, with progression increases entirely dependent The role gas plays will be determined by the market, upon performance. while keeping emissions within the limits set by the carbon budgets and consistent with a least-cost approach Discretion for schools to set salaries within the unqualified teachers’ scale without reference points and with performance to the UK’s binding 2050 carbon reduction target. Both based progression. now and in the future we need a diverse generation mix that balances risks and uncertainties of different technology I broadly accept these recommendations in principle. options, including uncertainty on future gas prices. I am however clear that the Department will need to However, we are likely to need significant investment in consider further how best to implement the STRB’s key new gas plant. recommendations and that it would be helpful to discuss the details with other parties before reaching firm Modelling by DECC suggests that up to 26 GW of conclusions that the STRB’s proposals represent the new gas plant could be required by 2030, in part to most effective approach. For instance, we may wish to replace older coal, gas and nuclear plant as it retires give further consideration to the appropriate criteria for from the system. It also indicates that, in 2030, we could eligibility to the upper pay scale. A requirement to have need more overall gas capacity than we have today, made substantial progress towards the maximum of the although operating at lower load factors. The modelling main scale could perhaps seem an unnecessary barrier if shows that gas could play a more extensive role, with we are seeking to enable the best teachers to progress higher load factors, should the fourth carbon budget be more rapidly. We will also need to ensure that we revised upwards. consider equalities issues as part of the process of A significant volume of new gas CCGT capacity is in implementing the recommendations and I will want to the planning pipeline. There is currently around 15 GW seek consultees’ views on these issues as well. of gas plant with consent and a further 2 GW is under 63WS Written Ministerial Statements5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 64WS consideration. However, only a small amount of that HEALTH capacity is currently progressing to the construction stage. Given the importance of gas to our energy mix, the NHS Pay Review Body/Senior Salaries Review Body Government issued a call for evidence on 2 May 2012 on the role of gas in the electricity market, to identify whether there are any barriers to bringing forward that The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): investment in gas generation in the UK, and if so, what I am responding on behalf of my right hon. Friend the we can do to remove them. Respondents to that call for Prime Minister to the reports of the NHS Pay Review evidence identified a number of different barriers to Body (NHS PRB) and the Senior Salaries Review Body investment. (SSRB) on market facing pay for their respective remit groups, which have been laid before Parliament (CM 8501 The objective of the gas generation strategy published and Cm 8507). I am grateful to the chairs and members today is to reduce the uncertainty around gas generation of the review bodies for producing these reports. for investors. Government recognise that support for other forms of generation could undermine certainty The Chancellor of the Exchequer on 7 December for investors in both low-carbon energy sources and 2011 and I on 23 December 2011 asked the NHS PRB gas. To this end, the Government are setting a sustainable to consider how to make pay more market facing in and affordable cap on the levy control framework out to local areas for NHS Agenda for Change (AfC) staff. 2020. We are also reiterating that our approach to The remit was for England only. decarbonisation trajectories will continue to stay in step The NHS PRB found that the AfC pay system already with other EU countries throughout the 2020s and has more extensive market facing features than in many consistent with a least-cost approach to our legally-binding other pay systems in large, national employers, in both 2050 decarbonisation objective and the fourth carbon the public and private sectors, to respond effectively to budget. local labour markets. Additional freedoms are also available In addition, and in response to the call for evidence, to foundation trusts introduced in legislation by the the strategy also provides clarity on electricity market previous Government. reform including that the Government are legislating The NHS PRB found that there was not the firm for the introduction of a capacity market. We are also evidence which would be essential to justify further introducing backstop powers in the Energy Bill that will top-down investment in additional market-facing pay enable Government to act in order to improve wholesale in the NHS at this time. They do not recommend the liquidity if necessary. In addition, we have brought introduction of centrally designed pay zones this year. forward proposals to improve the planning regime in Instead, the NHS PRB recommended a fundamental each part of Great Britain by introducing greater flexibility review of high-cost area supplements (HCAS), appropriate for existing consents and have committed to consider use of local recruitment and retention premia and regular improvements to front-loading requirements and provide review of AfC, including its flexibilities, with any more clarity on flexibility available for new applications negotiations brought to a conclusion at a reasonable under the Planning Act. pace. The NHS PRB agreed that should any market-facing To ensure the security of our gas supply we support approaches emerge from these developments they should Ofgem’s intention to work with industry to consider the be introduced incrementally to take account of affordability. case for interventions to enhance gas supply security The Government welcome and accept all of the through improving the operation of the market, via recommendations of the NHS PRB, including a review increased transparency and measures to promote the of HCAS and will take this work forward in partnership standardisation of interruptible contracts, and their with NHS trade unions and the NHS Employers investigation into the price responsiveness of interconnector organisation. The priority is to continue to develop the flows. The Government will consider whether there is a AfC system and ensure that national terms and conditions case for further measures to encourage gas storage, and are fit for purpose and support the recruitment and will publish our findings in spring 2013. retention of good quality staff in the most cost-effective To ensure we make the best use of our natural resources, and efficient way. DECC will establish an Office for Unconventional Gas The Chancellor and I wrote in similar terms to the and Oil that, working with DEFRA and other Government chair of the SSRB. However, the Department of Health’s Departments, will join up responsibilities across evidence noted that from 1 April 2013, the only NHS Government, provide a single point of contact for investors staff within the remit of the SSRB will be those relatively and ensure a simplified and streamlined regulatory few very senior managers (VSMs) employed by the process. We will also be consulting on the terms and Department’s special health authorities and executive durations of licences, and on an updated strategic non-departmental public bodies, together with a small environmental assessment with a view to further onshore number in ambulance trusts that have not yet become licensing. foundation trusts. All other NHS organisations are free My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to determine their own pay and terms and conditions also announced plans to consult on an appropriate for their VSMs. fiscal regime for shale exploration. The SSRB recommended that no additional locality The strategy further outlines the Government’s pay measures be added to the new VSMs’ national pay commitment to supporting the development and framework as the evidence pointed clearly to the market commercialisation of carbon capture and storage for VSMs being national rather than local. They observed technology, which will potentially enable both gas and that the new pay framework already has some flexibility, coal to have a significant role in the future electricity with safeguards, which should enable the NHS to recruit market as a low-carbon technology. and retain sufficient numbers of suitable VSMs. 65WS Written Ministerial Statements5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 66WS

The SSRB also recommended that all NHS VSMs The Council will discuss the annual report on the should be assimilated into and paid according to the implementation of the EU counter-terrorism (CT) strategy. new pay framework, on the basis of job weight, once Member states have been asked to reflect on EU the current NHS reforms have been fully implemented. achievements on counter-terrorism over the last six Our view is that, to avoid increasing pay and costs months and consider where efforts should be prioritised unnecessarily, the new framework should apply to all over the next six months. This discussion provides a new appointments. Existing VSMs should normally useful opportunity for the UK to set out its priorities remain on their existing terms and conditions unless and help shape the EU CT agenda. There will also be a adjustments are required to comply with equal pay presentation of Council conclusions on aviation security. legislation. This proposal to extend the threat-risk assessment The Government welcome and accept the recommendations methodology, developed to underpin the EU in-bound of the SSRB, apart from the recommendation to assimilate cargo regime, to other areas of EU-led aviation security all VSMs on to the new pay framework. is welcome. The UK was influential in establishing the EU in-bound cargo regime, which has raised the security bar for all air cargo entering the EU, and supports its HOME DEPARTMENT wider application. There will be a joint Justice and Home Affairs session Justice and Home Affairs Council on Thursday afternoon which will start with a mid-term review of the Stockholm programme. The presidency The Secretary of State for the Home Department will present its own assessment of progress under the (Mrs Theresa May): The Justice and Home Affairs Stockholm programme, the EU’s five-year Justice and (JHA) Council is due to be held on 6 and 7 December in Home Affairs work programme, which was agreed in Brussels. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State 2009. The presidency’s paper will be used as a basis for for Justice and I will attend on behalf of the United discussion, providing an opportunity to take stock of Kingdom. As the provisional agenda stands, the following JHA work completed in the last three years and discuss items will be discussed. priorities for work to be taken forward until the end of The Council will begin in mixed committee with the programme in 2014. While the Government do not Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU agree with the programme in its entirety, the UK supports Schengen states) where there will be an update on the stronger action against abuse of free movement rights, second generation Schengen information system (SIS II). closer practical co-operation on migration and asylum, The UK will continue to reiterate its support for the and attaches importance to agreeing the passenger name continuation of the current SIS II project. The Commission records directive. has committed to deliver the central element of SIS II in This will be followed by items on the data protection early 2013. framework. There will be an orientation debate on the The Commission will present its second biannual regulation and a state of play update provided on the report on the functioning of Schengen co-operation directive. The UK is participating in both these measures and the application of the Schengen acquis. The report having decided not to exercise the opt out under the will form the basis for a political and strategic discussion. Schengen protocol in relation to the proposed directive. There will be a report by the presidency on obstacles The justice day will begin with the presidency aiming to effective information exchange, with a particular to agree a general approach on the proposal for a focus on the use of the Swedish initiative (on police directive on the confiscation of criminal assets. The information) and on Prüm (on DNA, vehicle registration confiscation directive will create minimum standards and fingerprint data). More widely the Commission is for laws on the freezing and confiscation of instrumentalities undertaking a piece of work on information exchange and the proceeds of crime. The UK is still seeking and intends to publish a communication on the European changes to the text, particularly with regard to the information exchange model (EIXM). The UK believes non-conviction-based confiscation measure, which creates that this piece of work should be incorporated into the risks for our domestic civil recovery regime. The UK EIXM to give an overall picture of the tools that are has not opted in to this directive. available to member states on information sharing. Dependent on the status of related files progressing Under AOB the Irish delegation will provide the through the Economic and Financial Affairs Council Council with a presentation on its presidency programme, the presidency will seek to gain a general approach on which is due to start on 1 January. criminal sanctions for insider dealing and market Over lunch there will be a discussion on EU visa manipulation. The proposal aims to establish minimum policy based on the recent package of Commission EU rules concerning the definition of criminal offences documents on visas and growth, local Schengen for market abuse. The UK has not opted in to this co-operation, on reciprocity with third countries and directive. the proposal on the common visa list regulation. The presidency will be providing a state of play The main Council will start with a “state of play” update on the proposed directive on the protection of discussion on the common European asylum system the financial interests of the EU by criminal law (“the (CEAS), on which the presidency is keen to make as PFI directive”). The draft directive would repeal and much progress as possible by the end of the year. The replace the existing EU convention and protocols on UK has opted in to the Dublin (III) and Eurodac (II) protection of financial interests (PFI). The Commission proposals. Negotiations on these dossiers are progressing presented the proposed directive at the October Council. well and both are now close to agreement. The UK There will be an orientation debate on the proposals participates in these measures but has not opted in to on matrimonial property regimes and the property the three other directives which make up the CEAS. consequences of registered partnerships. The proposals 67WS Written Ministerial Statements5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 68WS lay down the rules by which it is decided which courts laid before Parliament today. The PSPRB makes have jurisdiction to resolve disputes on such matters, recommendations on remuneration for governing governors the law that should be applied and the mechanism by and other operational managers, prison officers and which decisions from one country are recognised and unified support grades within its remit in the England enforced in another. The UK has not opted in to these and Wales Prison Service. proposed regulations, and has no plans to opt in post- This report is in response to the Chancellor of the adoption. Exchequer’s request for the PSPRB to consider how to The presidency will also seek to gain a general approach make pay more market-facing in local areas for staff within on the proposed regulation on mutual recognition of its remit group. Copies of the report have been placed in protection measures in civil matters, which was discussed the Vote Office, the Printed Paper Office and the Libraries at the October Council. The instrument aims to establish of both Houses. I am grateful to the chair and members an effective recognition and enforcement process of of the PSPRB for their hard work in producing this report. protective/preventative orders among member states and The PSPRB recommendation on local market-facing complements the directive on the European protection pay is as follows: order in criminal matters. The UK supports the overall policy aim of the proposal and has opted in to it. The The reforms as set out in “Fair and Sustainable” should be implemented in full before consideration of any additional proposal has yet to clear scrutiny in either House. local pay flexibilities. There will then be an orientation debate on the The Government have accepted the review body’s proposed regulation for the European account preservation recommendation, which is consistent with Government order. This proposal aims to establish a self-standing proposals, that the new pay arrangements in “Fair and European procedure to freeze the bank accounts of Sustainable” should be given time to “bed in” before debtors in cross-border civil cases with cross-border consideration of any further local pay flexibilities. implications to prevent assets being taken beyond the reach of the courts. The UK did not opt in to this proposal, but is playing a full part in the negotiations WORK AND PENSIONS with a view to a possible post-adoption opt in. Under non-legislative activities, the EU drugs strategy Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer (2013-20) will be discussed. The strategy aims to reduce Affairs Council (EPSCO) significantly the demand for and supply of drugs, to promote international co-operation, research, information The Minister of State, Department for Work and and evaluation. Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban): The Employment, Social The presidency will also provide a state of play Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council will be update on the accession of the European Union to the held on 6 December 2012 in Brussels. European convention on human rights. The accession There will be discussion on the posting of workers by the EU will mean that the EU and its institutions are enforcement directive and Europe 2020. On the discussion directly bound by the convention. The Government are on the posting of workers enforcement directive, the keen to ensure that the accession agreement is workable UK will clarify that any new enforcement measures and meets the needs of the EU and its member states as must be proportionate and not impact on the single well as the needs of Members of the Council of Europe. market. On Europe 2020 discussion, the UK supports The UK welcomes the presidency’s conclusion that the priority given in the annual growth survey to encourage binding internal rules on how accession will work in growth and tackle unemployment. The Council will practice must be agreed before the accession agreement also be updated on the proposal for a Council directive can be finalised. on implementing the principle of equal treatment between There will then be a discussion on e-justice and the persons irrespective of religion or belief, disability, age work achieved during the second semester of 2012. The or sexual orientation and proposal for a regulation of aim of European e-justice is to provide a mechanism to the European Parliament and of the Council on the make it easier for national authorities, citizens and European globalisation adjustment fund (2014-20). businesses to access justice information and services from different member states using electronic means. The presidency will report on the state of play on the proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament The Irish delegation will then provide the Council and of the Council on the European Union programme with a presentation on their programme for the presidency, for social change and innovation. which is due to start in January. Over lunch, there will be a ministerial discussion on Ministers will consider Council conclusions on combating “Three years after the Lisbon violence against women and the provision of support services for victims of domestic violence. They will also treaty in the criminal justice area”. adopt a Council declaration on European year 2012 on active ageing and solidarity between generations. JUSTICE Under any other business, the presidency will provide Prison Service Pay Review Body updates on supplementary pension rights and the EU fund for the most deprived. The presidency will provide The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice information on conferences held during the Cyprus (Jeremy Wright): The Prison Service Pay Review Body presidency. Finally, the Irish delegation will outline the (PSPRB) report on local pay 2012 (Cm 8488) has been work programme of their forthcoming presidency.

9P Petitions5 DECEMBER 2012 Petitions 10P

by the appointed Inspector. As is usual a copy of all Petitions representations received, including this petition, will be sent to the local planning authority and the appellant Wednesday 5 December 2012 for their information and comment. It is understood, however, that Wiltshire Council are currently in negotiations with the Developers in connection OBSERVATIONS with an alternative scheme which, if approved, could result in the withdrawal of the current planning appeal. The appeal is therefore being placed into a period of abeyance whilst the fresh application is being considered. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Innox Riverside development, Trowbridge CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT The Petition of residents of Trowbridge and the surrounding area of Wiltshire, Sedgefield Library hours Declares that the Petitioners support the proposed The Petition of residents of Sedgefield, “Innox Riverside” development of the “Old Bowyers” Declares that the Petitioners are opposed to proposals site in Trowbridge; further that the Petitioners believe to reduce the opening hours of Sedgefield Library from that the development is needed to bring people back to 39 hours a week to 20: further declares that while the Trowbridge and that the “Innox Riverside” development Petitioners recognise the need to make cuts, the Petitioners has received a massive amount of local support; further believe that such a drastic cut will undermine community that the Petitioners believe that the “Innox Riverside” services and leave a huge gap in the welfare of both development promises to be an exciting family orientated adults and children, as Sedgefield Library is at the heart leisure and residential destination with place to work, of the community; and declares that the Petitioners eat and relax and that it will also introduce a new civic believe that 30 hours of opening each week would be square and landscaped green to Trowbridge. more appropriate for what is one of the most used The Petitioners therefore request that the House of libraries in the county. Commons urges the Government to encourage Wiltshire The Petitioners therefore request that the House of council to reverse their decision to refuse planning Commons urges the Government to review the level of permission for the “Innox Riverside” development in cuts in funding to Durham County Council so that the Trowbridge. Council can look again at the proposed reduction in the And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by opening hours of Sedgefield library and to look at what Dr Andrew Murrison, Official Report, 21 November 2012; else can be done to maintain library opening hours at a Vol. 553, c. 7p.] suitable level. [P001137] And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Phil Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities Wilson, Official Report, 17 September 2012; Vol. 550, and Local Government: c. 753.] The Secretary of State for Communities and Local [P001118] Government is aware that a planning application was Observations from the Secretary of State for Culture, submitted to Wiltshire Council in respect of the above Media and Sport: development. Following the refusal of Wiltshire Council The Government are committed to championing the to permit the proposed development an appeal was public library service. Libraries can and do contribute submitted to the Planning Inspectorate on 12 July 2012. to a range of local and national Government priorities Wiltshire Council is responsible for the day to day including assisting people to access a range of educational planning control in their area and the Secretary of State materials, to find employment and work with parents, cannot comment on the merits or otherwise of any schools and colleges to support education and learning planning application. The Government’s policy is not agendas. All these connections can have positive benefits to interfere with the jurisdiction of a local planning for communities. authority unless it is necessary to do so. It is of course The Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 requires for the local planning authority to provide whatever all library authorities to provide a comprehensive and justification it may be appropriate to give for their efficient library service based on local need within available decisions and procedures. resources. The assessment, funding and provision of In determining a planning application the local planning library services, including issues such as opening hours, authority are required to have regard to all material are therefore for local authorities to determine. Decisions considerations including the development plan, national about Sedgefield library are a matter for Durham County policies and views expressed by third parties. However, Council. now that an appeal has been submitted against the My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for local planning authority’s decision on the planning Culture, Media and Sport has a duty under the Act to application, jurisdiction has now transferred to the superintend the delivery of library services by local Planning Inspectorate. In determining the planning appeal authorities. A number of local authorities have announced the Inspector appointed, on behalf of the Secretary of plans to reconfigure their library services, and we monitor State, will also have regard to these matters. progress on plans, including those of Durham County The planning appeal is proceeding by way of an Council. Where the Government consider that a local Inquiry. All written representations received, at both authority is no longer providing a comprehensive and application and appeal stages, will be given full consideration efficient service, they have the power to order an inquiry. 11P Petitions5 DECEMBER 2012 Petitions 12P

The Government continue to support libraries and have libraries in England. Additionally they are working with transferred the responsibilities for the development and the Local Government Association to test new approaches improvement of public libraries to Arts Council England to library service delivery that are innovative, locally (ACE). ACE is currently undertaking a major research appropriate and enterprising ways of working, resulting project to help develop a long-term vision for public in a resilient vision for future public library services. 755W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 756W

would require the retrieval of records from archive Written Answers to facilities and detailed analysis of AWM’s records, and this could be done only at disproportionate cost. The Questions sale proceeds of land and property assets (“inventory”) sold by AWM in the financial year 2011/12 can be determined from their audited annual report and accounts Wednesday 5 December 2012 2011-12 as £4.43 million. The Government published a full list of RDA freehold land and property assets (as at 30 September 2010) on 28 October 2010, this is available at: BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS http://data.parliament.uk/depositedpapers/files/dep2010- 1895/dep2010-1895.doc Advantage West Midlands The list of sites transferred to the Homes and Communities Agency on 19 September 2011 was published Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for on the BIS website at the time and can be seen at: Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what steps he has http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/ taken to ensure that land formerly owned by Advantage www.bis.gov.uk/policies/economic-development/englands- West Midlands is being put to use to benefit local regional-development-agencies/assets/transferring-assets enterprise partnerships in the west midlands; [131671] (2) what steps he has taken to ensure that land Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for formerly owned by Advantage West Midlands is being Business, Innovation and Skills if he will list the assets put to use to benefit the West Midlands economy. held by Advantage West Midlands at the point that [131674] regional development agencies were authorised to sell assets in April 2011. [131676] Michael Fallon: As announced in the written ministerial statement of 10 February 2011, the Government was Michael Fallon: A full list of the eight Regional committed to ensuring an effective transition from all Development Agencies (excluding London) freehold the regional development agencies (RDAs), including land and property assets, including those of AWM, Advantage West Midlands, to a new economic delivery as of 30 September 2010 was laid before the House on landscape. 29 October 2010—see 28 October 2010, Official Report, The Government’s objective was that the disposal of column 458W.There were no substantive changes to the RDA assets would create maximum long-term value for list prior to 1 April 2011. the economy and local areas. RDA Accounting Officers had the overall responsibility for ensuring value for Arms Trade: Middle East money and were answerable to the Principal Accounting Officer of BIS using the provisions of the HM Treasury Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for guidance: ‘Managing Public Money’. Business, Innovation and Skills what the value was of With respect to the RDA sites which remained unsold, the UK’s arms trade with Israel in each of the last the Government came forward on 6 July 2011, Official three financial years; whether defence contracts with Report, column 95WS, with: Israel prohibit the use of UK-made weapons in the Occupied Palestinian Territories; and if he will make a “a ‘stewardship’ arrangement through which local partners, including local authorities, businesses, local enterprise partnerships statement. [131395] and others will be able to influence their development and ensure they are developed in a way which maximises economic outcomes Michael Fallon [holding answer 3 December 2012]: for the area”. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills The Homes and Communities Agency (HCA) were holds information only about the value of goods licensed made responsible and accountable for managing the for export, not about the value of goods actually exported portfolio. under a particular licence. Information on export licences granted and refused Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for for each destination, including a description and the Business, Innovation and Skills (1) if he will publish the value of the goods licensed for export, has been published (a) date of sale, (b) purchaser and (c) value of assets since 1997 in the Government’s annual reports on strategic sold by Advantage West Midlands since April 2011; export controls. Since 2004 this information has also [131672] been published in quarterly reports. The reports are (2) what records his Department made of the assets available online on the strategic export controls: reports sold and transferred by Advantage West Midlands and statistics website before its closure in March 2012. [131678] https://www.exportcontroldb.bis.gov.uk/eng/fox/sdb/ SDBHOME Michael Fallon: The Department currently does not The most recent report covers the period April to June hold records centrally of each asset sold by Advantage 2012. West Midlands (AWM), in particular details relating to All export licence applications are rigorously assessed the date of sale and the purchaser. on a case-by-case basis against the Consolidated EU The Regional Development Agencies (RDAs), and National Arms Export Licensing Criteria taking maintained their own records of properties sold and account of all prevailing circumstances at the time of these have been transferred to the Department as part the application. The Government will not issue a licence of the RDA closure programme. Obtaining the information if there was a clear risk the items for export would be 757W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 758W used for internal repression, would provoke or prolong Jo Swinson: The UK has a strong framework in place armed conflict in the country of final destination, or be to regulate and oversee the behaviour of directors of used aggressively against another country or territory. UK companies. This applies whether the directors are resident in the UK or overseas, and whether or not they Business: Loans are acting as nominees. The information that a UK company is legally required John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for to provide to either Companies House, its investors or Business, Innovation and Skills how many small and other relevant parties is not determined by the residency medium-sized businesses received loans from banks in of its directors. All UK companies have the same (a) Glasgow North West constituency, (b) Glasgow, transparency requirements whether or not the director (c) Scotland and (d) the UK in the last year. [131552] is resident in the UK. More widely, there are powers to provide for the Michael Fallon: The Department for Business, Innovation disqualification of directors where they are found unfit and Skills does not have data on the overall level of to be involved in the management of a UK company. lending to small and medium-sized enterprises (SME) The Department works proactively to identify individuals at constituency level. committing offences under company law, and to take Business lending statistics at regional level are already appropriate enforcement action. published on the British Bankers’ Association (BBA) In 2011-12, for example, we disqualified over 1,100 directors website. The most recent data were published on for breaches of company law and misconduct in companies. 30 November 2012 at: This included action taken against people who were not http://www.bba.org.uk/statistics/small-business formally registered or appointed as directors and shadow directors and included action against directors who The BBA has committed to publish SME lending at ignored their obligations under the tax system. post-code level, once a sufficient data set has been developed to allow meaningful comparison. The precision Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries of these data make their disclosure commercially sensitive and so their publication schedule will be annual, with Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for the first release to take place shortly. Business, Innovation and Skills which Minister in his The Enterprise Finance Guarantee, the Government’s Department is responsible for the UK retail motor industry; loan guarantee scheme does provide a breakdown at the and which part of his Department is responsible for the level requested. Details are provided in the following UK retail motor industry. [131467] table. Michael Fallon: Issues raised by the retail motor Value of industry are dealt with on a case by case basis. The part Number Value of Number of loans of the Department and Minister responsible therefore of loan loan offers loans drawn depends on the particular topic. For example, legislative Area offers (£ million) drawn (£ million) framework for competition, this is the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment Relations and Glasgow 2 0.34 2 0.35 North West Consumer Affairs, the Member for East Dunbartonshire Glasgow 43 7.26 39 6.95 (Jo Swinson) or, training for those working in the sector, City the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills, Scotland 195 26.31 166 21.26 my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Matthew UK 2,931 330 2,551 280 Hancock). Natural Capital Committee Employment Tribunals Service Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on how many occasions Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for he has met Dieter Helm in his capacity as Chair of the Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the Natural Capital Committee. [131632] contribution of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State of 17 October 2012, Official Report, column 363, Michael Fallon: No such meetings have taken place. when the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State will meet the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton Natural Resources West and his constituent to discuss the enforcement of employment tribunals. [131680] Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Department Jo Swinson: I am happy to meet with the hon. Member has developed an inventory of natural capital assets for and his constituent and have offered times for a meeting which it is responsible. [131628] to take place this month. Michael Fallon: No, this is the responsibility of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Foreign Companies Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what funding he has Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment allocated to assessing the effect his Department has on his Department has made of the potential effect on due the UK’s natural capital assets. [131629] oversight and transparency of operation of companies of non-UK resident nominee directors. [131365] Michael Fallon: None. 759W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 760W

Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many members of Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to staff in his Department work on assessing the natural ensure that all entries in the Land Registry contain true capital assets for which his Department is responsible. identities and that the use of nominee or fake [131630] designations by offshore property owners is prohibited. [131714] Michael Fallon: None. Michael Fallon: Her Majesty’s Land Registry maintains Property: Registration a record of legal ownership to land in England and Wales whether the owner is an individual, a company registered in the United Kingdom or a company registered Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for overseas. Business, Innovation and Skills what consideration he has given to implementing the recommendation contained We are currently reviewing the legal framework and in the 2001 Andrew Edwards report on the Review of enforcement covering the oversight of directors of UK Financial Regulation in the Crown Dependencies proposing companies, including the issue of nominee directors that the true beneficial ownership of UK property be who are resident overseas. recorded at the Land Registry. [131429] CABINET OFFICE Michael Fallon: The Review of Financial Regulation in the Crown Dependencies was not concerned with the Charitable Donations Land Registry. Robert Flello: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet In 2001 Andrew Edwards published his Quinquennial Office what work his Department is doing as part of Review of Her Majesty’s Land Registry. That review the Red Tape Challenge on Civil Society to consider did not recommend that beneficial ownership be recorded how complexity could be reduced for smaller charities at the Land Registry but it did invite Ministers to in applying for licences for house-to-house collections consider the case for disclosure of true or beneficial of clothing. [131329] ownership on the register where this differs from legal ownership. The Land Registration Act 2002 does not Mr Hurd: The Cabinet Office received comments on contain any such disclosure requirements. a range of issues as part of the Red Tape Challenge, but Currently there are no plans to impose a duty to licences for house-to-house clothing collections were disclose to the Land Registry. not raised and consequently no action on this issue has been proposed. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Emergency Planning College Business, Innovation and Skills what steps are being taken to ensure that the true value of English property Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet transactions are recorded at the Land Registry; and Office when he last visited the Emergency Planning what powers he has to ensure correction of the College at Hawkshills in Easingwold. [129545] registration of misleading values. [131430] Mr Maude [holding answer 22 November 2012]: Iplan Michael Fallon: In accordance with provisions that to visit soon. are already contained in the Land Registration Rules, Homelessness: Essex Her Majesty’s Land Registry enters on the register of title the price paid for the property or, where no money Helen Goodman: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet has changed hands or the price is not apparent from the Office if he will make an estimate of the cost of the documents, the value declared. The entry remains on Essex social impact bond as compared to financing by the register until there is a change of proprietor or some gilts; and if he will publish that comparison. [131353] other change in the register which the registrar considers would result in the entry being misleading. Mr Hurd: The level of outcomes payments in the Essex Social Impact Bond (SIB) are dependent on The registrar has power, under the Land Registration outcomes being achieved, which means investors’ returns Act, to correct mistakes in the register. and their initial funding are both at risk. Therefore the cost of capital is not comparable to UK gilts, If outcomes Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for are achieved then Essex will make savings, a proportion Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he has taken of which will be used to repay investors. The exact to ensure that the accurate beneficial ownership of details of the transaction are a matter for Essex county property in England and Wales is recorded at the Land council. Registry. [131431] New Businesses: Devon Michael Fallon: In accordance with the legislation, Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Minister for the Her Majesty’s Land Registry maintains a record of Cabinet Office what estimate he has made of the number legal ownership to land in England and Wales. It does of business start-ups in (a) Devon and (b) Newton not record beneficial ownership. Abbot constituency in each of the last five years. Currently there is no plan to alter the role of the [130670] Land Registry in this regard. However, we are currently reviewing the legal framework and enforcement covering Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the the oversight of directors of UK companies, including responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have the issue of nominee directors who are resident overseas. asked the authority to reply. 761W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 762W

Letter from Glen Watson, dated November 2012: Training As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question Nicholas Soames: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet concerning what recent estimate has been made of the number of Office what training courses were run by Common business start-ups in (a) Devon and (b) Newton Abbot constituency Purpose for his Department; and what the cost of such in each of the last five years. [130670] courses was in each of the last five years. [131710] Annual statistics on the number of business start-ups (we refer to these as enterprise births) are available in the ONS release on Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office has spent the following Business Demography at: on training courses run by Common Purpose in each of http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/bus-register/business- the last five years: demography/index.html The table contains the latest figures available on the number of Financial year Description Spend (£) enterprise births in (a) Devon and (b) Newton Abbot constituency. 2007-08 Tuition Fees 3,554.37 Please note—Data for the Newton Abbot constituency are shown 2008-09 The Know/Personalised 5,287.50 for 2010, however, prior to this date the area was part of the L&D Teignbridge constituency. Therefore, data shown for the period 2006-2009 are for the Teignbridge constituency. 2009-10 0 2010-11 International Navigator 638.30 Count of enterprise births in (a) Devon and (b) Newton Abbot Leadership Course constituency and Teignbridge constituency, 2006 to 2010 2011-12 0 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Teignbridge 465 500 440 370 n/a constituency CHURCH COMMISSIONERS Newton n/a n/a n/a n/a 240 Abbot Bishops: Females constituency Devon 2,960 3,185 2,890 2,440 2,295 Mr Leigh: To ask the hon. Member for Banbury, county representing the Church Commissioners, what the Note: votes cast for and against the draft measure to approve The above figures have been rounded to the nearest five to avoid the consecration of women bishops in the Church of disclosure. England were by the respective Houses of Bishops, Regional Development Agencies: Assets Clergy and Laity in each diocese of England; and what the votes cast for and against the measure were at the Richard Burden: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet General Synod meeting on 20 November 2012, by Office which Department is responsible for monitoring diocese and by each House. [130727] the disposal of assets of former regional development Sir Tony Baldry: The following table shows the agencies and the value for money achieved in that breakdown of the votes cast at the General Synod of process. [131491] the Church of England during its November session relating to item 501—Bishops and Priests (Consecration Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf and Ordination of Women) Measure. of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. The table displays the result by Diocese and by House BIS was responsible for monitoring the disposal of for all the 44 Diocese of the Church of England and the assets held by regional development agencies (RDAs) votes cast by the other constituencies entitled to vote at and for ensuring that RDAs obtained the best consideration the General Synod. These other constituencies include reasonably obtainable for all assets other than those delegates from the group of Suffragan Bishops, delegates transferred under a transfer scheme. from the Cathedral Deans, the Armed Forces Synodical Where assets were transferred to other bodies by Council, and delegates from Church of England Religious the transfer scheme, the receiving body took on the Communities, the Universities (six delegates from Northern responsibilities from the point of transfer. For example, and Southern Universities), Ex-Officio Officers (including the Homes and Communities Agency, which is sponsored the First, Second and Third Church Estates Commissioner, by the Department for Communities and Local Government, Dean of Arches, Chair of the Pensions Board and the took responsibility for a large portfolio of RDAs’ land Vicars General of Canterbury and York Diocese) and and property interests on 19 September 2011. members of the Archbishops’ Council.

Voting breakdown by Dioceses and House on item 501 Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure—Tuesday 20 November 2012 House of Bishops House of Clergy House of Laity In No vote In No vote In No vote Diocese favour Against Abstentions recorded favour Against recorded favour Against recorded

Total Members 52 201 213 by House

Bath and Wells 1 — — — 3 1 — 4 1 — Birmingham 1 — — — 3 — — 3 — — Blackburn — — — 1 2 2 — 2 4 — Bradford1— — —2— 13— — 763W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 764W

Voting breakdown by Dioceses and House on item 501 Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure—Tuesday 20 November 2012 House of Bishops House of Clergy House of Laity In No vote In No vote In No vote Diocese favour Against Abstentions recorded favour Against recorded favour Against recorded

Bristol 1 — — — 3 — — 2 1 — Canterbury 1 — — — 2 1 — 3 — — Carlisle 1 — — — 3 1 — 2 2 — Chelmsford 1 — — — 4 2 — 3 4 — Chester — — 1 — 3 2 1 6 2 — Chichester — 1 — — 3 3 — 2 6 — Coventry1— — —3— —2 1 — Derby 1 — — — 1 1 1 2 1 — Durham 1 — — — 3 1 — 3 1 — Ely 1 — — — 3 — — 3 — — Europe — 1 — — 2 — — 1 1 — Exeter — — 1 — 2 2 — 3 2 — Gloucester 1 — — — 4 — — 2 1 — Guildford 1 — — — 3 2 — 1 3 — Hereford1— — —3— —3— — Leicester 1 — — — 2 1 — 2 1 — Lichfield 1 — — — 4 2 — 4 3 — Lincoln 1 — — — 3 — — 2 1 1 Liverpool 1 — — — 4 1 — 4 1 — London — — — 1 6 4 — 4 6 — Manchester 1 — — — 5 1 — 3 3 — Newcastle 1 — — — 3 — — 2 1 — Norwich 1 — — — 4 — — 3 — — Oxford 1 — — — 5 3 1 4 4 — Peterborough 1 — — — 2 1 — 1 2 — Portsmouth 1 — — — 2 — 1 3 — — Ripon and 1— — —3— —1 2 — Leeds Rochester 1 — — — 2 2 — 2 3 — St Albans 1 — — — 5 — — 5 — 1 St 1— — —3— —3— — Edmundsbury and Ipswich Salisbury 1 — — — 5 — — 5 1 — Sheffield 1 — — — 1 2 — 1 2 — Sodor and 1— — —1— —1— — Man Southwark 1 — — — 6 2 — 5 2 — Southwell and 1— — —3— —3— — Nottingham Truro 1 — — — 3 — — 2 1 — Wakefield 1 — — — 3 1 — 2 2 — Winchester 1 — — — 3 2 — 1 6 — Worcester 1 — — — 3 — — 2 1 — Yo rk 1 — — — 4 2 — 4 2 — Suffragan 61 — 1—————— Bishops Deans — — — — 5 — — — — Forces —— — —1 1 13— — Synodical Council CofE —— — —1 1 —2— — Religious Communities Universities — — — — 3 1 2 — — — Ex-Officio — — — — — — — 3 — 5 Archbishops’ —— — —1— —5— — Council Total votes 44 3 2 3 148 45 8 132 74 7 Note: No vote recorded column includes members who were absent, whose vote did not register or where there is currently a vacancy in that particular diocese or constituency. 765W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 766W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT the regulatory cost of a new build home, meaning fewer new homes, making home ownership less accessible Business Rates Retention Scheme especially for first time buyers, and potentially pushing up rents in the private rented sector. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will Smoke alarms, which have been shown to be very encourage local authorities to consult local businesses effective in saving lives and reducing injuries, are required on how revenue raised from the business rate retention in all new homes. We also strongly recommend that people should fit alarms in older homes and check them scheme will be spent. [131684] regularly. Brandon Lewis: The Government expects that all local authorities will be actively engaged with their local Regional Development Agencies: Assets business community as part of their ongoing responsibilities for delivering local services. It will be for local authorities Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for themselves to determine how to spend revenue from the Communities and Local Government how many assets business rates retention scheme, taking account of local previously held by regional development agencies’ circumstances and priorities. assets and transferred to the Homes and Communities Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Agency on 19 September 2011 have been sold to local Communities and Local Government what guidance he authorities; and what the total monetary value of such plans to give to local authorities on how additional assets is. [130854] money raised as a result of the business rate retention scheme can be spent. [131685] Mr Prisk [holding answer 29 November 2012]: Since transfer, to date the Homes and Communities Agency Brandon Lewis: The Government do not have any has disposed of eight former Regional Development plans to provide guidance to local authorities on how Agency land and property assets to local authorities. they should spend any additional funding generated by The list of these eight disposals to local authorities is the business rates retention scheme. That will be for listed in the following table. local councils to determine, taking account of local circumstances and priorities. Amount Agency Local authority Asset (£) Housing: Fire Extinguishers Advantage West Wolverhampton Bilston Urban 560,000 Midlands city council Village Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for East Midlands Leicester city Abbey 294,000 Communities and Local Government (1) if he will Development council Meadows, make it his policy to designate domestic sprinklers as a Agency Leicester factor in sustainable housing so that builders can install North West Wirral council New Chester 0 them as a measure to meeting the sustainable housing Development Road, Rock requirements; [131692] Agency Ferry Chester (2) if he will make it his policy to relax guidance to One North East South Tyneside Harton 1 MBC Staithes, enable local planners to require domestic sprinklers Harton. Quay [131693] to be installed; South East Medway council Chatham 0 (3) if he will bring forward legislative proposals to England Maritime require the installation of domestic sprinklers. [131694] Development Agency Mr Foster: The Government has no plans to introduce Yorkshire City of York Former ABB 1,100,000 new provisions for domestic sprinklers in planning policy, Forward council Site, Holgate Park, York sustainable housing policy, building regulations or the Yorkshire Barnsley Metropolitan 10,085,000 guidance that supports these measures. Forward metropolitan Centre, The Government has recently launched a review of borough council Barnsley housing standards intended to simplify the current regime market of national and local standards so as to support growth Yorkshire Sheffield city Porter Brook 1,000,000 in the housing sector. Details of the review can be found Forward council site on the internet at: Transfer at £nil or £1 reflects the value of an asset www.gov.uk/government/news/independent-panel-to-help- government-cut-housebuilding-red-tape-and-boost-growth with an ongoing liability. Research and a review of this issue in 2005 concluded that it would not be cost effective to provide sprinklers Social Rented Housing: East of England in new homes, but that it would be reasonable to provide them in blocks of flats over 30 metres in height and Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State certain types of care homes. The outcome of the research for Communities and Local Government what recent resulted in building regulations being amended to require estimate he has made of the effect of immigration on the sprinklers in tall blocks of flats, certain types of care number of new social housing lets in (a) Peterborough homes and large warehouses. and (b) the East of England in the last three years; and New regulation on housing needs to be balanced what assessment he has made of the effect of immigration and proportionate. Making sprinklers compulsory in all on social housing waiting lists in (i) Peterborough and new homes would add an estimated £2,000 to £3,000 to (ii) the East of England over the last 10 years. [131453] 767W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 768W

Mr Prisk: Under this Government, we have published partners, including those from South America, Asia a number of research reports on immigration that were and the Pacific, at markets, festivals and other platforms commissioned by the last Administration but never that are currently being identified as part of the BFI’s published. international strategy. The Government has also recently They were placed in the Library of the House further signed a film co-production treaty with Brazil, and to the written ministerial statements of 1 March 2011, earlier this year the UK and Chinese Governments Official Report, columns 19-21WS and 10 October 2011, signalled their intention to work towards a similar Official Report, columns 1-5WS. agreement as part of the bilateral High Level People To A comprehensive answer on the limited eligibility of People Dialogue. social housing for foreign nationals was outlined in the answer of 17 May 2012, Official Report, columns 247-48W. We do not collect information centrally on the nationality of households on housing waiting lists. Information on DEFENCE the new lettings of social housing by nationality of the tenant is published at: Armed Forces: Deployment www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/xls/2055516.xls The figures show that, across England in 2010/11, 9% Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for of those new to social tenancy are not UK nationals. Defence what UK (a) military and (b) other personnel Estimates of sub-national levels are not available. (i) have been and (ii) are deployed under Common Such estimates provide a strong argument for the Foreign and Security Policy or Common Security and coalition Government’s reforms to give councils greater Defence Policy operations; and if he will make a statement. powers and flexibilities over the allocation of social [121356] housing, so greater weight can be given both to those with genuinely local connections and to current and Mr Robathan: [holding answer 18 September 2012]: former members of the armed forces. The UK has personnel, both military and civilian currently Through the Localism Act, we have given back to deployed on a number of missions and operations as councils the freedom to manage their own waiting lists. part of the EU’s Common Security and Defence Policy They are now able to decide who should qualify for activity. The current numbers for those operations and social housing in their area, and to develop solutions missions where the UK makes a contribution are as which make best use of finite social housing stock. follows: Current and former members of our armed forces are EUTM Somalia—EU training of Somali national security one group who have previously lost out in the social forces: two military; housing system, because moving from base to base and Op Althea Bosnia—EU training and executive security force: living abroad leaves them without strong local connections. six military; We have amended the law such that former personnel EUCAP NESTOR—Regional maritime capacity building in with urgent housing needs are always given high priority the Horn of Africa: two civilians; on waiting lists, and that personnel who move from EULEX Kosovo—Executive and mentoring activity in the base to base do not lose their qualification rights. New rule of law: 37 civilians; statutory guidance to councils sets out how their allocation EUMM Georgia—EU monitoring mission focused on 12 August schemes can give priority to current or ex-service personnel, and 8 September 2008 ceasefires: 17 civilians; including through the use of local preference criteria EUPOL Afghanistan—Training and mentoring of Afghan and local lettings policies. Ministry of Interior: 12 civilians; Some councils are not using these new local flexibilities, EUPOL COPPS West Bank—Support to the Palestinian Authority and they should be held to account and challenged to on wider rule of law issues: four civilians; justify their actions. EU JUST LEX Iraq—Strengthening Iraqi rule of law and respect for human rights: six civilians; EUSEC DRC—Supporting Congolese reform of their armed forces, working towards national security and social and economic CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT development: three civilians. Film: Exports Details are not centrally held of UK military and other personnel deployed on previous CSDP missions Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, and operations. Media and Sport what steps she is taking to increase The information will take time to collate. I will write the UK film industry’s exports to (a) South America to the hon. Member as soon as it is available. and (b) Asia and the Pacific. [131683] Substantive answer from Andrew Robathan to Martin Mr Vaizey: The Government recognises that exports Horwood: of UK films help ensure that audiences around the In my answer to your Parliamentary Question dated 18 September world enjoy a full range of British film culture and are a 2012, which asked how many UK personnel have been and are currently deployed under Common Foreign and Security Policy key element in our Growth strategy for the creative or Common Security and Defence Policy operations, I undertook industries. As part of their recently launched five-year to write to you to provide a fuller response. plan, the British Film Institute (BFI) will increase its Please see as follows a table outlining current EU CSDP existing funding for film exports to support the promotion missions and operations and the UK’s seconded personnel of British films and film talent on the global stage. The contribution, both civilian and military staff. These figures denote funding will strengthen opportunities for producers and staff currently and previously on duty and are correct as of 26 sales agents to engage with prospective international November 2012. 769W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 770W

All Current EU Operations

Operation Commencement date UK personnel contribution

EUFOR ALTHEA Military Operation 2 December 2004 Military: 6 Civilian: 0 Military mission to support Bosnia and Herzegovina’s peace Figure denotes military personnel currently on duty. keeping efforts to maintain the safe and secure environment Historical data not readily available

EUNAVFOR—ATALANTA Military Operation 8 December 2008 Military: 65 Civilian: 3 Mission to counter piracy and improve maritime security off Figures for personnel also include those based at the the coast of Somalia and in the Indian Ocean OHQ at Northwood. As part of the UK contribution to OP ATALANTA the UK provides the Operation Commander—Rear Admiral Potts as well as around 50% of the OHQ staff. Figure denotes military personnel currently on duty. Historical data not readily available

EUTM SOMALIA Military Operation 25 January2010 Military: 2 Civilian: 0 Military mission to contribute to the training of Somali Figure denotes military personnel currently on duty. security forces Historical data not readily available

EUSEC RD Congo Civilian Mission 8 June 2005 Civilian: 5 EU advisory and assistance mission for security reform in Figure denotes total seconded staff since the start of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) the mission

EULEX KOSOVO Civilian Mission 14 December 2007 Civilian: 82 Mission to assist and support the Kosovo authorities in the Figure includes police and denotes total seconded rule of law area, with a specific focus on the judiciary staff since the start of the mission

EUBAM Civilian Mission Moldova and Ukraine 30 November 2005 Civilian: 1 Mission to help improve the capacity of the Moldovan and Figure denotes total seconded staff since the start of Ukrainian border and customs services to prevent and detect the mission smuggling, trafficking of goods and human beings, and customs fraud, by providing advice and training

EUMM GEORGIA Civilian Mission 1 October 2008 Civilian: 34 The mission aims to contribute to stability throughout Georgia Figure includes police and total seconded staff since and the surrounding region. Its main tasks including reducing the start of the mission tensions through liaison, facilitation of contacts between parties and confidence building measures

EUPOL AFGHANISTAN Civilian Mission 15 June 2007 Civilian: 44 The mission contributes to the establishment of sustainable Figure includes police and total seconded staff since and effective civilian policing arrangements under Afghan the start of the mission ownership and in accordance with international standards

EUJUST LEX Civilian Mission Iraq/Brussels 1 July 2005 Civilian: 16 The mission was established to strengthen the rule of law Figure includes police and total seconded staff since and to promote a culture of respect for human rights in Iraq the start of the mission by providing professional development opportunities for high and mid-level Iraqi officials from the criminal justice system 771W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 772W

Operation Commencement date UK personnel contribution

EUCAP NESTOR Civilian Mission 17 July 2012 Civilian: 2 Mission to support regional maritime capacity building in Figure denotes total seconded staff since the start of the Horn of Africa and Western Indian Ocean States the mission

EUAVSEC South Sudan Civilian Mission 18 June 2012 Civilian: 1 The mission aims to strengthen aviation security at Juba Figure denotes total seconded staff since the start of international airport in South Sudan the mission

EUPOL RD Congo Civilian Mission 1 July 2007 Civilian: 4 The mission aims to develop a police force which interacts Figure denotes total seconded staff since the start of well with the criminal justice authorities and upholds legal the mission standards

EUCAP SAHEL Niger Civilian Mission 16 July 2012 Civilian: 0 Mission aims to support the fight against organised crime Figure denotes total seconded staff since the start of and terrorism in the Sahel region by training the Nigerian the mission security forces to improve their control of the territory and regional cooperation

EUPOL COPPS Civilian Mission 1 January 2006 Civilian: 12 The mission has a long term reform focus and provides Figure denotes total seconded staff since the start of enhanced support to the Palestinian Authority (PA) in the mission establishing sustainable and effective policing arrangements

EUBAM Rafah Civilian Mission 24 November 2005 Civilian: 1 EU Border Assistance Mission at Rafah crossing point Figure denotes total seconded staff since the start of the mission

Figures for civilian staff are those who have been seconded by It is our policy to maintain the integrity of the HMG. These figures do not reflect those UK nationals who are United Kingdom and we are currently undertaking a directly contracted by the EU to work on various EU missions. programme of analysis of how Scotland contributes to, A fuller investigation into the records held by the Department and benefits from being part of, the UK. This will has confirmed that the provision of any further information on include how Scotland contributes to, and benefits from, completed missions would be at disproportionate cost, as this the UK’s integrated armed forces. However, without information is not held centrally. Should you have questions about a specific previous EU operation or mission I would be knowing what a hypothetical independent Scottish happy to provide you with more information. Furthermore, should Government’s approach to defence would be, we cannot you wish to visit the Department to discuss CSDP missions and predict what the implications would be for the defence operations I would be delighted for my officials to provide you of the UK or for the defence of an independent Scotland, with a suitable briefing. including the effects on armed forces recruitment.

Armed Forces: Recruitment

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Armed Forces: Sexual Offences Defence if the programme of analysis referred to by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary in his Department on 21 November 2012, Official Report, column 561 will Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence include an assessment of the potential effects of how many allegations of rape made by members of Scottish independence on armed forces recruitment. the armed forces concluded with charges being [130412] (a) brought and (b) dropped in each year since 2000; and if he will make a statement. [129433] Mr Philip Hammond: The UK Government’s position is clear: Scotland benefits from being part of the UK Mr Francois: The number of cases of rape reported and the UK benefits from having Scotland within it. We by members of the armed forces which resulted in are confident that the people of Scotland will choose to direction for trial, charges brought and the number remain part of the UK, and are not therefore, planning which were not directed for trial are shown in the for any other outcome. following table: 773W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 774W

of the protocol was placed in the House of Commons Total number of referrals of Library on 22 July 2009, deposited paper 2009/2358. rape The role of a lord lieutenant is a varied one and people allegations from all walks of life may be considered for the position, made by but the essential criteria for the post are: knowledge and members of the Directed Not directed understanding (or a willingness to learn) of the whole armed forces for trial for trial county, particular issues and any challenges the county 2005 4 2 2 may face; communication skills; someone who has the 2006 1 0 1 respect of the community, who relates well to people at 2007 2 1 1 all levels and who is tactful, discreet and impartial. 2008 4 1 3 The current lord lieutenant of Durham was appointed 2009 3 1 2 on 19 January 1997; the Cabinet Office holds no records 2010 6 1 5 of which individuals were consulted in relation to this 2011 4 2 2 appointment. 2012 1953 1 To date—one yet to be directed/not directed. Information prior to 2005 could be provided only at EDUCATION disproportionate cost. Children: Homelessness Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what instructions were issued to commanding officers Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Education on reporting incidents of (a) rape and (b) sexual what recent assessment he has made of the effect of assault to civilian police between 2000 and 2012; and if increased homelessness on (a) school attendance and he will make a statement. [130550] (b) access to school places. [131155] Mr Francois: The Commanding Officers (Designate) Mr Timpson: All children, regardless of their background course, run in each of the services, includes briefings on or circumstances, are entitled to receive the best possible the legal and disciplinary responsibilities of Commanding education. The Department has not recently assessed Officers. the specific effect of homelessness on school attendance Since October 2009, Commanding Officers are guided and school places. Schools and local authorities are by Volume 1 of the Manual of Service Law (Version 2). responsible for monitoring school attendance and tackling This provides extensive policy guidance and reference any underlying causes of poor attendance. The first two material on the procedures introduced by the Armed terms of 2011/12 data show that school attendance is at Forces Act 2006 and Chapter 3, Part 3, paragraph 52 its highest for the same period over the last five years. refers to consultations with relevant civilian authorities These data were published as Statistical First Release when jurisdiction lies within the UK. 22/2012 ‘Pupil Absence in schools in England: Autumn Prior to 2009 this guidance was provided under the Term 2011 and Spring Term.2012’ at: single Service Discipline Acts, Naval Discipline Act http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001090/ 1957, Army Act 1955, Air Force Act 1955. index.shtml A copy of the Manual of Service Law is in the The School Admissions Code includes specific measures Library of the House. to support vulnerable children. For example, each local authority must have a Fair Access Protocol, agreed with the majority of schools in its area to ensure that any child without a school place, but particularly vulnerable DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER groups, is offered a place at a suitable school as quickly as possible. Paragraph 3.15 of the Admissions Code Lord-Lieutenants lists certain categories of children that must be included as a minimum—one of the categories is children who Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister are homeless. The Department’s published advice on pursuant to the answer of 25 October 2012, Official Fair Access Protocols—which was developed with local Report, column 1032W, on Lord Lieutenants, what authorities and schools can be found at: considerations are taken into account when compiling http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/adminandfinance/ a list of potential Lord Lieutenants; and which schooladmissions/ individuals the Head of Honours and Appointments Secretariat in the Cabinet Office met in relation to the Children: Internet appointment of the current Lord Lieutenant of County Durham. [131701] Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what guidance schools provide to children Miss Chloe Smith: The considerations taken into on how they can protect themselves online. [131226] account when considering potential lord lieutenants are set out in the protocol on the appointment of lord Mr Timpson [holding answer 3 December 2012]: It is lieutenants published by the Government in July 2009. the responsibility of schools to provide guidance to This protocol was a commitment on the part of the children on internet safety. Programmes such as Think Government in its response to the Sixth Report of the U Know and Know it All, provided by the Child Justice Committee on Public Appointments: Lord- Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) and Lieutenants and High Sheriffs (December 2008). A copy Childnet respectively, are widely used by schools. 775W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 776W

Primary schools may introduce internet safety informally the individual educational needs of their disadvantaged or as part of specific projects. At secondary level, it is pupils. This might include, in appropriate cases, assisting included in the statutory ICT curriculum and may also them with any welfare-related issues affecting their ability be discussed in form tutor sessions and in PSHE (Personal, to learn on an equal footing with their peers, such as social and health education) lessons. access to suitable clothing or equipment. In addition, academies and free schools may, where their funding Children: Performing Arts agreements permit, give priority in their admission arrangements to children who attract pupil premium Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for funding. Education when he will publish the results of the At the same time, Ofsted now have an increased focus consultation on children involved in performance; and on the performance of pupils who attract the premium, if he will make a statement. [125280] and on how it is used by their schools to remove barriers to learning for premium pupils. Since September 2012, [holding answer 29 October 2012]: Mr Timpson The as part of routine school inspection, Ofsted holds school law on protecting child performers exists to ensure that leaders to account by looking at how schools have spent arrangements are made by producers to keep children their pupil premium, and at their rationale. Inspectors safe. It is important that there is a robust system for will examine what difference this is making to the protecting children and that producers, parents, local learning and progress of the pupils concerned. Their authorities and chaperones all understand their judgements on schools’ leadership will consider their responsibilities and execute them properly. use of both the premium and other resources to overcome Government has been considering ways of improving barriers to achievement for their pupils. We have also the existing requirements without stifling opportunities revised the School Admissions Code to include specific for children. We consulted on proposals this summer, measures to support vulnerable children. For example, and spoke to broadcasters, film producers, professional each local authority must have a fair access protocol, and amateur theatre companies, parents and children. agreed with the majority of schools in its area to ensure Our proposals to simplify child performance legislation that any child without a school place, but particularly would not change the requirements for children performing vulnerable groups, are offered a place at a suitable in professional broadcasts to have a licence, issued by school as quickly as possible. their local authority, and to be provided with a chaperone, a person who is approved by their local authority to be Domestic Violence: Education responsible for their safety and wellbeing. It is right that we carefully consider their views and will announce our next steps in due course. Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) what his policy is on mandatory teaching Children: Temporary Accommodation about domestic violence during relationship education in schools; [130750] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what guidance his Department gives to teachers Education what steps he is taking to support the on teaching about domestic violence during relationship education of children who are living in hostels or bed education in schools. [130751] and breakfast facilities. [130384] Elizabeth Truss: The Government has no plans to Mr Timpson: All children, regardless of their background make teaching about domestic violence a statutory or circumstances, are entitled to receive the best possible requirement. Schools can address the topic of domestic education. The Government have already initiated a violence in sex and relationship education as part of a number of new reforms aimed at ensuring our most broader programme of Personal, Social, Health and vulnerable children get the support they need. Pupil Economic (PSHE) education. When teaching about premium funding is paid to schools so that they can these issues all schools must have regard to the Secretary support the educational achievement of their disadvantaged of State for Education’s Guidance on Sex and Relationship pupils. The Government are determined to narrow the Education. gap in educational attainment between disadvantaged The document makes clear that effective sex and children and their peers, and the total premium funding relationship education should bring an understanding available this year is £1.25 billion, rising to £2.5 billion of what is and is not acceptable in a relationship. by 2014-15. The rate of premium is currently £623 per Teachers should ensure young people develop positive disadvantaged pupil this year, rising to £900 next year. values and a moral framework that will guide their Pupils attract premium funding for their schools if they decisions, judgments and behaviour. In addition, all have been known to be entitled to receive free school young people should understand how the law applies to meals at any point in the last six years: that is, they live relationships. in households claiming qualifying benefits. We would expect most families of children living in hostels or bed and breakfast facilities to be entitled to welfare benefits Foster Care which may entitle them to free school meals. This in turn would make them eligible to receive pupil premium. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children in care who have been looked after continuously Education (1) if he will include provisions in a for six months also qualify for the pupil premium. children’s bill in the current session of Parliament to Schools are free to deploy their pupil premium funding make it explicit that membership of a political party as they wish, as school leaders and teachers are the should not be a consideration when placing children professionals best placed to understand and respond to with foster carers; [131093] 777W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 778W

(2) whether he has any plans to change regulations Table 2: Estimated pupil places created when open free schools on ethnic matching when placing children in foster care. are at capacity [131094] Phase/type 2011 2012 Total Primary 17 19 36 Mr Timpson [holding answer 3 December 2012]: The Secondary 5 19 24 Government is committed to encouraging people from All-through 2 7 9 all walks of life to come forward to foster children. 14-19 0 1 1 Prospective foster carers must be considered in terms of 16-19 0 1 1 their capacity to look after children in a safe and Infant(5-7) 0 0 0 responsible way that meets the child’s development Special 0 3 3 needs. There is absolutely no bar in legislation or guidance AP 055 on supporters of any political party, or people from any Total 24 55 79 ethnic background, being approved as foster carers. Places created when 9,000 25,000 34,000 When placing a child in foster care, the local authority schools are at capacity must give due consideration to the child’s religious persuasion, racial origin and cultural and linguistic Jimmy Savile background. These factors should be considered in the context of the full range of the child’s needs, in order to determine the most appropriate placement to safeguard Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for and promote the child’s welfare. I am considering whether Education what steps his Department has taken any changes to the framework are required to make following revelations about Jimmy Savile. [125281] even clearer that the needs of the child must always be paramount in the placement process. Mr Timpson [holding answer 29 October 2012]: As my hon. Friend is aware, the Government is currently implementing a programme to strengthen child protection Free Schools and safeguarding arrangements. The recent case involving Savile reinforces the importance of that programme of reform and that the Government has been right to make Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for it a priority. Education what steps he is taking to ensure that the teaching of evolution is taught in free schools. [124379] Schools: Admissions

Mr Laws: Free Schools are subject to Ofsted inspections Jonathan Lord: To ask the Secretary of State for in the same way as all other state funded schools. From Education what proportion of children were given a January 2012 inspections have had a stronger focus on place at either their first or second choice for (a) primary quality of teaching. Failure to teach evolution as an school and (b) secondary school in (i) Wokingconstituency, extensively evidenced theory would affect Ofsted’s (ii) Surrey and (iii) England in 2012. [130843] assessment of the school. To formalise our expectation that evolution is included Mr Laws: The Department only collects data on in the science curriculum in Free Schools we will include places offered in secondary schools and only at local a requirement to teach evolution as a comprehensive, authority level not constituency level. The latest available coherent and extensively evidenced theory in future information, published on 22 March 2012, showed that funding agreements for Free Schools. 92.5% of parents in Surrey and 93.1% in England were offered a place in either their first or second preference secondary schools for 2012. More detail can be found at Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for the following link: Education how many additional school places have been created by the free schools that (a) have been http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d001061/ index.shtml provided to date, (b) are to be provided in 2012-13 and (c) are projected to be provided in 2013-14. [130712] Schools: Playing Fields Mr Laws: Information on the number of school places is published as part of the School Capacity Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Statistical Release. The following table shows a provisional for Education how many applications to dispose of timetable for when data will be available for free schools: school playing fields have been referred to the School Playing Fields Advisory Panel in each year since 1999; Free schools opening date School capacity statistical release and how many such applications were (a) approved, (b) rejected by the Advisory Panel and (c) withdrawn. September 2011 Spring 2013 [130802] September 2012 Spring 2014 September 2013 Spring 2015 Mr Laws: The Schools Playing Fields Advisory Panel does not make decisions. Its remit is purely advisory, We estimate that when they are at capacity the 79 with the decision making power resting with Ministers. open free schools will create at least 34,000 additional This Government have only approved sales if the school school places. The capacity of the free schools which has closed, has merged, or if equal or better facilities are working towards opening in 2013 is not yet agreed. are being put in place. 779W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 780W

Records relating to the School Playing Fields Advisory The Department does not routinely monitor what Panel commenced in November 2001 and the information academies and free schools provide in relation to physical requested is detailed in the following table. education and intra- and inter-school competition.

Cases Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for referred to Recommended Recommended Education what assessment he has made of the amount panel approval rejection Withdrawn of time pupils in (a) primary and (b) secondary schools 2001 13 11 2 0 spent on sport and physical education in (i) November 2002 73 67 6 0 2012 and (ii) November 2008. [131092] 2003 36 30 6 0 2004 30 30 0 0 Mr Timpson [holding answer 3 December 2012]: The 2005 30 28 1 1 Department no longer collects data on the participation 2006 14 12 2 0 of school children in physical education and sport. 2007 32 28 3 1 When the Department did collect such data, figures were not broken down on a monthly basis. The 2008 2008 23 19 4 0 School Sport Survey shows that in a typical week, the 2009 17 13 3 1 average number of minutes that pupils spent taking 2010 21 18 3 0 part in physical education during 2007/08 was 122 for 2011 11 9 2 0 primary pupils and 114 for secondary pupils. 2012 12 9 3 0 Special Educational Needs

Schools: Sports Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education with reference to the draft Children and Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Families Bill, for what reason he proposes that an Education which school games events of Level 2 or apprentice aged 16 to 25 years old would not have above he has attended in the last year. [124326] an education, health and care plan. [127400]

Mr Timpson [holding answer 22 October 2012]: During Mr Timpson: It is our ambition that young people this period the Secretary of State for Education has not with learning difficulties and/or disabilities have increased attended any school games events of level two or above. access, choice and opportunity in education, and that Over the past year the School Games has provided their education prepares them for independent living opportunities for young people of all ability levels and and adult life. backgrounds to enjoy competitive sport. The School The draft SEN provisions are currently undergoing Games has helped to deliver on the Olympic promise to pre-legislative scrutiny, and we will be responding in inspire a new generation. due course.

Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for for Education what steps his Department has taken to Education with reference to his draft Children and monitor the provision of (a) curriculum physical Families Bill, whether he proposes that a further education and (b) intra- and inter-school competition education or sixth form college will be able to request in (i) academies and (ii) free schools. [129783] an education and health care assessment of a young person. [127402] Mr Timpson: Academies and free schools are not Mr Timpson: The draft SEN provisions would enable required to follow the national curriculum but there is anyone—including parents, schools, further education an expectation that they will provide physical education and sixth form colleges and young people themselves—to and sport. ask for an assessment by bringing a child or young Some academies and free schools are excelling in this person to the attention of the local authority.In considering area. For example, Harefield Academy’s Sporting Excellence whether to undertake an assessment, the local authority programme provides extra support to students who would be required to ask for and take into account any display potential for sport whist at the same time requiring views and evidence presented by the parent or young them to work hard across all their lessons. The majority person. of the school’s Sporting Excellence students achieved extremely high academic results in 2012. At Lampton Teachers: Pensions Academy, West London, sport is very much at the heart of its ethos. The school’s Basketball Academy opened Mr Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Education in 2010 which has helped to engage many pupils in how many pension schemes are comprised within the education who might otherwise have struggled to progress. overall Teachers’ Pension Scheme. [130777] Everton Football Club has opened the Everton in the Community Alternative Provision Free School in Liverpool, Mr Laws [holding answer 30 November 2012]: The using the power of sport to engage disaffected young Teachers’ Pension Scheme (TPS) is a defined benefit people. At the Norwich Free School, physical education occupational pension scheme for teachers and lecturers is taught by professional coaches at Norwich City Football in England and Wales which provides a range of benefits Club Sports Park. Children are also given regular for members and their families. There is a different opportunities to compete in competitions and events benefit structure for those members who first joined the with other schools in Norwich. scheme after January 2007 or who re-joined it following 781W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 782W a break in service of more than five years. In effect, Funds (£ million) therefore, there are two schemes (with differing benefit packages) within the overall TPS. 2010-11 366 The most significant differences between the two 2011-12 1145 benefit structures are that those joining after 1 January 1 The original budget for Warm Front and associated fuel poverty 2007, have a normal pension age of 65 (previously age expenditure for 2011-12 was £110 million. During 2011-12 total 60), and build up their pension at a rate of 1/60th of expenditure was £108.6 million. Therefore, of the original Warm Front budget £1.4 million was unspent. The budget was increased by final salary for each year of service with no automatic £35 million during the year. We also received agreed rebates from th lump sum, as opposed to the previous rate of 1/80 of Carillion Energy Services of nearly £14 million. These rebates were final salary with an automatic lump sum equivalent to used to offset expenditure in 2011-12 bringing total reported expenditure 3/80ths of final salary. for the year to £94.4 million. Against the total budget of £145 million for 2011-12, £50.6 million was unspent. In addition, energy companies also provided energy efficiency measures to households in fuel poverty through ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target and the Community Energy Saving Programme. Climate Change Fuel Poverty: Chatham John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions he Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for has had with his ministerial colleagues in preparation Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the number of people in Chatham and Aylesford for his participation in the Doha Round. [131139] constituency living in fuel poverty. [131792] Mr Hayes: DECC Ministers meet regularly with ministerial colleagues to discuss a range of issues. As Gregory Barker: Fuel poverty data is published at a has been the case with successive Administrations, it household level rather than an individual level. The latest is not the Government’s practice to provide details of data shows that in 2010 there were around 4,200 households all such meetings. in Chatham and Aylesford constituency living in fuel poverty. This represents 11% of all households in this constituency. In England as whole, 16% of all households Energy: Scotland were fuel poor. Sub-regional fuel poverty data, including breakdowns Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for of fuel poverty by parliamentary constituency, can be Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of found here on the DECC website: 22 November 2012, Official Report, column 553W, on http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/ grants, how many grants for (a) Renewable Heat Premium fuelpov_stats/regional/regional.aspx Payment, (b) Marine Energy Array Demonstrator Scheme, (c) Carbon Capture and Storage Innovation Programme, Senior Civil Servants (d) Offshore Wind Component Technologies and Demonstration Scheme, (e) Energy Entrepreneurs Fund Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Scheme, (f) Energy Storage Component Research and Energy and Climate Change (1) for what reason his Feasibility Study Scheme, (g) Bio-energy Demonstrators Department decided to re-run the application process of the European Industry Bio-energy Initiative, (h) Offshore for the post of permanent secretary of his Department; Wind Accelerator, (i) Polymer Fuel Cells, (j) Entrepreneurs [131706] Fast Track, (k) Low Carbon Network Fund, (l) Beyond (2) whether (a) he and (b) his Department submitted Chapelcross Workforce Transition Project and (m) Caithness a candidate for the post of permanent secretary to the and North Sunderland Fund were made to recipients in Department to the Prime Minister for his approval; and Scotland; to whom each such grant was awarded; and on what date any such submission was made. [131709] what the total monetary value was of such grants awarded in Scotland. [130856] Gregory Barker: The competition for the post of permanent secretary for the Department of Energy and Gregory Barker [holding answer 29 November 2012]: Climate Change concluded without an appointment. Answering the question as tabled would incur For this reason the competition is being re-run. disproportionate costs. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Fuel Poverty Energy and Climate Change if he will place in the Library a copy of the job description, person Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy specification and the criteria used by his Department to and Climate Change what funds his Department evaluate candidates for the post of permanent secretary allocated to energy efficiency measures specifically for of his Department. [131707] people in fuel poverty in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. [131681] Gregory Barker: A copy of the job description and person specification for the post of permanent secretary Gregory Barker: The Department allocated the following of the Department of Energy and Climate Change will funds to energy efficiency measures for households in be placed in the Libraries of the House. This was used fuel poverty through the Warm Front scheme: by the selection panel to evaluate candidates for the post. 783W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 784W

Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for loss of annual value added could be offset over time as Energy and Climate Change how many candidates for the market and businesses adjust by sourcing and trading the post of permanent secretary of his Department alternative species. (a) applied for the position, (b) were given interviews for this post and (c) were offered the position. [131708] Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what the cost Gregory Barker: 43 candidates applied for the post of was of his Department’s survey of woodland carried permanent secretary of the Department of Energy and out from 6 to 9 November 2012; [130068] Climate Change. Five candidates were shortlisted for (2) what recent estimate he has made of the cost of interview. None of these candidates was offered the the ongoing (a) weekly and (b) monthly tree surveys position and therefore the competition concluded without investigating ash dieback disease; [130332] an appointment and is being re-run. (3) what estimate he has made of the (a) weekly and Wind Power (b) monthly cost of tree surveys in respect of ash dieback disease. [130547] John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of Mr Heath: For the period 6 to 9 November the 27 November 2012, Official Report, column 315W, on Department has incurred costs of £115,200 for the wind power, how many wind turbines emitting 500kW survey of woodland. This comprises actual costs and or less have been de-rated. [131465] reasonable estimates where actual costs are not currently available, including the estimated cost of staff being Mr Hayes: We do not hold this breakdown of 500 kW diverted from other activities to undertake survey work. or below turbines centrally and it would be resource We have not made any estimates of the cost of the intensive to provide it. However, as the total number of ongoing weekly and monthly tree surveys. Future 100 kW to 500 kW wind turbines to have been registered surveillance work will be determined by the control for FITs to end September 2012 is 32, the number of plan for delivering our objectives for tackling Chalara turbines that have been de-rated to 500 kW or below fraxinea. Until this is in place, we will not be in a would only be a proportion of that. position to estimate the cost of any ongoing tree surveys.

Ash Trees: High Peak ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Andrew Bingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Animals: Exports Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he has made of the number of ash trees in (a) High Peak Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State constituency and (b) the Peak District National Park. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many [131501] inspections were carried out by animal health officers on live animal exports (a) on farm, (b) in transit and Mr Heath: No estimate has been made by constituency (c) at ports in each of the last five years. [131379] area or by national park. However, the 45 County Reports for England from the Forestry Commission’s Mr Heath: Data regarding the number of inspections National Inventory of Woodland and Trees published carried out by animal health officers on live animal in 2001 give information on the area of woodland exports for (a), (b) and (c) are not recorded in the where ash is the principal species and an estimate of the format requested. number of ash trees outside woodland. These reports are available on the Forestry Commission’s website. Ash Dieback Disease Cider Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for has made of the likely cost to the horticultural trade of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if, in the light of the ash tree import ban. [130066] the statement from Julian Temperley of the Somerset Cider Brandy Company that he had discussed the issue Mr Heath: There is no official data for the volume or with the Minister of State in his Department at Apple value of imported ash trees but estimates do exist. The Day on Mr Temperley’s farm, he will correct his answer Forestry Commission estimates an average of 580,000 ash of 19 November 2012, Official Report, column 329, on plants are imported each year, although annual figures cider. [131356] vary considerably. A recent survey of nurseries by the Horticultural Trades’ Association estimated that about Mr Heath: No correction needs to be made to the 1.5 million ash trees are imported annually. Taking previous answer referred to by the hon. Member. these two figures and applying Forestry Commission estimates of wholesale prices, the aggregate value added from growing and selling on imported ash trees is Dogs estimated, at £120,000 - £300,000 annually. This range does not include potential consequential losses for individual Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of horticultural businesses from the import ban such as State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what contract losses. Neither does it include ash trees imported steps he is taking to encourage more responsible dog directly by end users and contractors. This estimate of ownership; and if he will make a statement. [131203] 785W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 786W

Mr Heath: DEFRA has proposed a package of measures While these discussions with the industry and others aimed at tackling irresponsible dog ownership. We have are ongoing we trust that insurers will continue to also been working closely with the Home Office to honour the Statement of Principles agreement in this ensure that their new measures to deal with antisocial final year and act in good faith towards all their customers, behaviour will also include such behaviour where it including small businesses. involves dogs. DEFRA’s proposals were subject to recent Action taken by communities, Government and public consultation and we are finalising the analysis of businesses to reduce flood risk will continue to be the the 27,000 or so responses before making an announcement best way of keeping insurance terms affordable in the on a way forward shortly. future. The Government is spending significant sums on flood and coastal erosion risk management, with Employment Agencies increasing levels of external investment as a result of partnership funding. On 30 November, the Chief Secretary Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State to the Treasury announced an additional £120 million for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his would be available over the next two years for spending policy is on the use of offshore employment companies on flood defences. in the supply of public sector workers in his Department and its associated public bodies. [128738] Food: Labelling

Richard Benyon: Core DEFRA, its executive agencies Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for and non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) do not Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent currently have any specific policy on the use of offshore assessment he has made of the potential effect on sales employment companies in the supply of public sector of labelling of British food. [130858] workers and there are no plans to develop such a policy in the future. Mr Heath: DEFRA does not monitor the changes in The Government non-permanent staff procurement the profitability of different food products. However framework is used to identify and engage recruitment research has shown that some consumers are willing to suppliers for core DEFRA, its executive agencies and pay a premium for food of known origin. its NDPBs. The framework is awarded to UK based In late 2011 the British food industry developed a set recruitment companies only. of principles for labelling the origin of food and when to use the term ‘British’. This shows the industry is Flood Control concerned about the overuse use of terms such as British.

Mr Raab: Toask the Secretary of State for Environment, Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Food and Rural Affairs what the Government spent on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what benefits managing the risk of flooding and coastal erosion in he expects labelling of British food to bring to the (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. [131521] promotion of healthy eating. [130859]

Richard Benyon: DEFRA and the Environment Agency Mr Heath: British food can be eaten as part of a spent £664.1 million in 2010-11 and £573.0 million in healthy diet but this would not be the rationale for 2011-12 on managing the risk of flooding and coastal labelling a food as British. Research suggests there is erosion in England. Final expenditure in 2011-12 was demand from consumers to have information about the £22.3 million higher than originally budgeted, following origin of food. Nutrition labelling to help consumers internal reprioritisation by DEFRA. chose a healthy diet applies to all pre-packed food Additionally, local authorities spent £97.4 million in regardless of origin. 2010-11 and £104.1 million in 2011-12 on flood and coastal erosion risk management supported by Formula Guide Dogs Grant from the Department for Communities and Local Government. Mr Woodward: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what penalties Floods: Insurance are available to the (a) police and (b) courts to punish those found guilty of attacks on assistance dogs. Sir Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State [131136] for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his talks on flood insurance have included any discussions Mr Heath: The police have powers under both the on insurance provision for small businesses. [131320] Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 and the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to seize dogs involved in attacks, fighting or cruelty Richard Benyon: We want to see affordable flood cases. The maximum penalty for allowing a dog to be insurance continue to be widely available. We remain dangerously out of control and it injuring someone is committed to ongoing discussions with the Association an unlimited fine or two years’ imprisonment, or both. of British Insurers and others about what replaces the Under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991, the maximum Statement of Principles agreement once it ends next penalty for the same offence without it injuring anyone year. A range of options are on the table. We are is a fine of £5,000 or six months’ imprisonment, or working with stakeholders and the Department for both. The maximum penalty for causing unnecessary Business, Innovation and Skills to better understand suffering to an animal is a fine of £20,000 or six months what the impact on small businesses would be. imprisonment, or both. 787W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 788W

Polar Bears Mr Swire: The Government is aware that elements in Argentina are pressuring some cruise ship companies to Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for drop the Falklands from future itineraries and have Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether the made threats to their operations in Argentina if they do Government will advocate EU support for the proposal not do so. It would be disappointing if the industry of the US to uplist polar bears to CITES Appendix I; bowed to such blackmail, which is designed to damage and if he will make a statement. [131091] the economy and livelihoods of the Falkland Islands’ people. The Falkland Islanders are a small community, Richard Benyon: We are actively considering the USA’s but they have welcomed visitors for many years, especially proposal to include the polar bear in Appendix I of the from cruise ships, and provided an excellent tourist convention on international trade in endangered species experience. Foreign and Commonwealth Office officials (CITES) but have yet to adopt a final position. Once the have had discussions with a number of senior executives UK has formed an opinion on the proposal, we will in the industry, and we are hopeful that the Falklands work with other EU member states to finalise a common will continue to welcome the cruise ships. EU position for the Conference of Parties to CITES in The Government condemns unequivocally any efforts March 2013. to intimidate companies from pursuing their lawful business. We have summoned the Argentine ambassador, so she is in no doubt about our strength of feeling on FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE this matter. We have raised the issue at the International Balearic Islands Maritime Organisation, highlighting the health and safety implications of such actions. And we are in Sir Roger Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions with international partners who share our Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will estimate concerns about these illegitimate efforts to interfere the number of (a) annual UK citizen visitors to, with shipping. (b) permanent expatriate UK citizens in and (c) other UK homeowners in the Balearic Islands in the latest year for which figures are available. [131351] HEALTH Mr Lidington: The information is as follows: (a) In 2011 there were an estimated 3.5 million visitors from Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse the UK to the Balearics. 2012 figures to July show an increase of 3.5% on last year. We cannot confirm that these were all UK Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health citizens/passport holders. how many admissions to hospital with an alcohol-related (b) Spanish National Institute of Statistics figures show that diagnosis via accident and emergency departments there 24,000 British nationals were formally registered with their local were in (a) Suffolk, (b) Cambridgeshire and (c) Norfolk town halls in the Balearics in 2011, the latest year for which broken down by trust area in each of the last three years. figures are available. [131192] (c) The UK Government does not have figures on the number of UK homeowners on the Balearics, however we estimate that Anna Soubry: The following table contains the sum of only half of all British residents register with their town hall, the estimated alcohol attributable fractions for admissions suggesting closer to 50,000 UK residents in total. via accident and emergency departments in Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk primary care trust (PCT) of main Sir Roger Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for provider for the years 2009-10 to 2011-12. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the reasons It should be noted that these figures are not a count were for the downgrading of consular representation in of people and do not represent an actual number of the Balearic Islands; and if he will make a statement. admissions that were attributable to alcohol at the time [131352] of admission. Mr Lidington: Consular representation in the Balearics A sum of the alcohol attributable fractions1 for admissions to hospital has not been down-graded. There is no reduction in our via an accident and emergency department2 in Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk PCT of main provider3 for the years 2009-10 staffing budget but we are restructuring to recruit additional 4 front-line staff overseen by a smaller number of senior to 2011-12 staff. This will provide a better front line service for 5PP 5PQ 5PT British nationals in one of the busiest consular regions PCT of main in the world. We continue to maintain a consulate in provider Cambridgeshire Norfolk Suffolk Majorca, a vice-consulate in Ibiza and an honorary 2009-10 6,338 5,979 4,598 consul in Menorca, and an additional vice consul is 2010-11 6,955 6,424 5,211 being recruited in Majorca. We no longer have a resident 2011-12 7,019 7,427 5,345 consul in Palma but our consul-general in Barcelona Activity in English National Health Service Hospitals and English heads the Balearics consular operation. NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector. 1 Alcohol-related admissions Falkland Islands The number of alcohol-related admissions is based on the “methodology developed by the North West Public Health Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Observatory (NWPHO), which uses 48 indicators for alcohol-related Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is illnesses, determining the proportion of a wide range of diseases and taking to support cruise ship companies who visit the injuries that can be partly attributed to alcohol as well as those that are, by definition, wholly attributable to alcohol. Further Falkland Islands and are considering withdrawing the information on these proportions can be found at: islands from their itineraries following actions taken by www.nwph.net/nwpho/publications/ the Government of Argentina. [131303] AlcoholAttributableFractions.pdf 789W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 790W

The application of the NWPHO methodology has recently been Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for updated and is now available directly from HES. As such, Health what assessment he has made of the underspend information about episodes estimated to be alcohol related may be slightly different from previously published data. of the East Midlands allocation of the Cancer Drugs Alcohol attributable fractions are not applicable to children under Fund. [131696] 16. Therefore figures for this age group relate only to wholly- attributable admissions, where the attributable fraction is one. Norman Lamb: In 2012-13, NHS East Midlands received 2 Admission Method an initial allocation of £11.504 million1 for the Cancer This field contains a code which identifies how the patient was admitted to hospital. Drugs Fund. Information supplied to the Department 21 = Emergency: via Accident and Emergency (A and E) services, by the strategic health authority indicates that to the including the casualty department of the provider end of September 2012, £3.291 million of this had been 28 = Emergency: other means, including patients who arrive via the spent. A and E department of another healthcare provider 1 £200 million is available for the Cancer Drugs Fund in 2012-13. 3 PCT of main provider This indicates the PCT area within which the organisation providing This comprises £140 million which has been allocated to the treatment was located. national health service and a further £60 million that is available 4 Assessing growth through time (Inpatients) for strategic health authorities to draw down as needed. HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of Care Homes: Fees and Charges improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for example, changes in activity may be due to changes in the provision Health (1) what the average fee paid per week by each of care. Source: local social services department to private care homes Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care for clients in (a) nursing and (b) residential care was in Information Centre 2011, by local authority; and what the average costs were for self-funders; [131087] Antibiotics (2) how many care homes there are within each local authority area; and how many of those care homes Mr Jamie Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for have fees which fall within the local authority fee cap. Health what his policy is on the online prescription of [131088] antibiotics. [131702] Norman Lamb: The NHS Information Centre for Norman Lamb: In the United Kingdom, the vast health and social care collects data from councils with majority of antibiotics are classified as prescription adult social services responsibilities (CASSRs) on their only medicines and should only be supplied for individual unit costs for residential and nursing care for older patients following an assessment by a qualified professional. people, adults aged 18-64 with learning disabilities, The assessment can be face-face or virtual but must adults aged 18-64 with mental illness and adults aged comply with the standards set by the regulators. 18-64 with physical disabilities. Provisional data for Under the Human Medicines Regulations 2012, 2011-12, provided by the Information Centre, has been prescription only antibiotics may normally only be supplied placed in the Library. Information on the costs of care against a prescription written by an independent or to self funders is not collected centrally. supplementary prescriber, at registered pharmacy premises The Care Quality Commission (CQC), as regulator by or under the supervision of a pharmacist or at a of adult social care services, can provide data on numbers dispensing doctor practice. of care and nursing homes in England. Information oh The prescribing and supply of antibiotics and the numbers of care and nursing homes in all English professionals involved are regulated by the Care Quality CASSR areas, as at 29 November 2012, has been placed Commission and the relevant professional regulatory in the Library. body, e.g. the General Medical Council, the Nursing Neither CQC nor the Information Centre collects and Midwifery Council or the General Pharmaceutical information on which care homes local councils contract Council. with or the level of the fees councils agree with individual homes. Cancer Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to the proposals of the final Health whether the East Midlands, West Midlands and report of the Commission on Funding Care and East of England are grouped for the purposes of the Support, published in July 2011, what the proportion of assets depleted under a (a) £35,000, (b) £50,000 Cancer Drugs Fund. [131695] and (c) £75,000 will be cap on care costs with an extended upper capital limit of £100,000 and £10,000 Norman Lamb: NHS East Midlands, NHS East of living costs; and how the proportion of assets depleted England and NHS West Midlands form the Midlands will vary depending on level of income. [131089] and East strategic health authority (SHA) cluster, with each remaining a statutory body within the cluster. Norman Lamb: The “Caring for our future: progress We understand that each SHA has retained its own report on funding reform” set out the amount of assets regional clinically-led panel to make decisions on the that people would deplete under different levels of the use of the Cancer Drugs Fund. cap, including £25,000, £50,000 and £75,000, with the SHA clinical panels are working collectively to promote upper capital limit set at £100,000 and general living improved access to cancer drugs. costs set at £10,000. 791W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 792W

Information on how assets would deplete for different good time, and that a smooth transition of the estates levels of income is not available. finance function will take place between the sending and receiving organisations. Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to the proposals of the final Pain report of the Commission on Funding Care and Support, published in July 2011, what assessment he has made of the potential differing effect of the Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for proposals on males and females. [131090] Health what criteria are being used by commissioners to assess the suitability of potential providers of pain Norman Lamb: As with all decisions, the Department management services under Any Qualified Provider, in will consider the effect on equalities when making a relation to the needs of patients with chronic pain. decision to implement funding reform, including the [131314] effect on men and women. The Department will publish its considerations when a decision is made. Anna Soubry: Under Any Qualified Provider, the commissioner is responsible for setting the local specification Circumcision for the service. The criteria used to assess the suitability of potential providers for any service can vary between commissioners according to local quality requirements. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for East Riding of Yorkshire Primary Care Trust (PCT) Health (1) if he will estimate the cost to the NHS of and Hull Teaching PCT are currently the only two dealing with problems arising from circumcisions PCTs implementing Community Chronic Pain performed at home in each of the last three years; Management services. Both PCTs have chosen to use [131236] the same service specification for this service, a copy of (2) what steps he plans to take to encourage the which can be accessed via the NHS Supply2Health performance of safe circumcisions. [131238] website at: www.supply2health.nhs.uk/CPI/Lists/AQPOffers/ Anna Soubry: No information is held centrally on the DispForm.aspx?ID=7 cost to the national health service of dealing with problems arising from circumcisions performed at home Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for in each of the last three years. Health what progress he has made on developing a The Department is clear that circumcision should quality standard on the management of pain. [131315] ordinarily only be carried out for medical reasons. Where this, is the case, circumcision is undertaken by Norman Lamb: We have asked the National Institute qualified medical clinicians to ensure minimal risk to for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) to develop a patients. Quality Standard on pain management for young people In England, the national health service does not fund and adults as part of a library of approximately 180 NHS ritual circumcision. In some cases, where there have Quality Standards. NICE has not yet published a timescale been instances of harm to children following non- for the development of this Quality Standard. therapeutic circumcision, local primary care trusts have The NHS Commissioning Board, who will be responsible decided to commission non-therapeutic circumcision for the strategic direction of NHS Quality Standards services to ensure they comply with their duty to protect from April 2013, have begun discussions with NICE to the health of their populations. determine the most appropriate sequencing for NHS The Department agrees with General Medical Council, Quality Standards to assist the board in improving British Medical Association, and the British Association patient outcomes across the five domains of the NHS of Paediatric Surgeons that the welfare of infants who Outcomes Framework. are circumcised must be paramount, whatever the reason for undertaking the procedure. Any medical procedure Self-mutilation must be undertaken in hygienic conditions, with appropriate pain relief and aftercare. Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS Property Services Health what estimate his Department has made of the number of children and young people of each (a) gender Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of and (b) age in England who committed acts of self-harm State for Health how many (a) primary care trusts in the last 12 month period for which figures are available; and (b) strategic health authorities completed the and if he will make a statement. [131085] information transfer of information relating to estates, suppliers, customers, requisition points and users to Norman Lamb: Hospital Episode Statistics supplied NHS Property Services by the deadline of 30 November by the Health and Social Care Information Centre 2012. [131691] record admissions to hospital for self harm. The figures are therefore not fully representative of the number of Dr Poulter: NHS Property Services (NHS PS) has children and young people who have committed acts of confirmed that 141 primary care trusts (PCTs) and nine self-harm in England, as this information is not collected. strategic health authorities (SHAs) submitted returns Information on the number of finished admission in respect of the above exercise by the deadline of episodes and accident and emergency (A&E) attendances 30 November 2012. NHS PS is confident that all PCTs in 2011-12 for children and young people where the and SHAs will complete the transfer of information in cause is self-harm is in the following tables: 793W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 794W

Number of finished admission episodes and A&E attendances Sleep Apnoea for self-harm by gender and age in 2011-12 (A&E Data for 2011-12 is provisional) Finished admission episodes Mr Allen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he plans that the work of his Department’s Gender Obstructive Sleep Apnoea Working Group will continue Age Female Male Not known in the reformed NHS. [131137] 0711— 1814—Anna Soubry: The future programme of work on 2 1015—delivering improvements for people with respiratory 388—disease, including those with obstructive sleep apnoea (OSA), will be a matter for the National Health Service 444—Commissioning Board (NHS CB) from April 2013. The 525—NHSCB is currently developing its work priorities and 654—plans, and any ongoing work of the OSA Working 756—Group will be considered as part of that process. 845— 9816— Streptococcus 10 13 13 — 11 33 35 — Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 1225851—(1) what research his Department has (a) commissioned 13 928 135 — and (b) evaluated on public opinion on routine screening 14 2,115 245 — for Group B streptococcus carriage in pregnant women; [131437] 15 2,804 500 — 16 2,228 563 — (2) what research his Department has (a) commissioned 17 2,429 744 — and (b) evaluated on public opinion on the acceptability of receiving antibiotics during labour to prevent the 18 2,142 936 1 transmission of Group B streptococcus from mother to baby. [131438] A&E attendances Gender Dr Poulter: The Department has not commissioned Age Female Male Not known or evaluated any research on public opinion on routine 033341screening of pregnant women for Group B Streptococcus 1 94 126 — (GBS) carriage; or the acceptability of receiving antibiotics during labour to prevent the transmission of GBS from 2 96 118 — mother to baby. 3 6385— 4 3753—The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists 5 4136—(RCOG) published a revised Green-Top guideline on 6 2240—the prevention of early-onset neonatal GBS disease 7 1630—on 18 July 2012. The National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) published a new guideline 8 2129— on antibiotics for the prevention and treatment of early- 9 3040—onset neonatal infection, including GBS on 22 August 10 24 42 — 2012. 11 57 87 — 12 208 131 — 13 618 204 — 14 1,487 379 1 HOME DEPARTMENT 15 2,001 652 — 16 2,066 925 — Asylum 17 2,504 1,289 — 18 2,753 1,659 1 Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Note: the Home Department how many asylum seekers have Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned participated in the detained fast track process in each activity in the independent sector. year since its inception, by country of origin. [131053]

The Health and Social Care Information Centre advises Mr Harper: The number of asylum seekers, excluding that it is possible for the same person to be admitted to dependants, that have been accepted onto the fast track hospital on more than one occasion and/or have multiple process by country of nationality are published in a attendances at A&E. So these figures do not represent number of Home Office statistical bulletins. the number of patients. It is also possible that the same I will place a collated copy of all published tables person may be counted in both tables. from 2001 to 2011 in the Library of the House. It also advises that this data is provisional and may be The Home Office publishes annual statistics on the incomplete or contain errors for which no adjustments number of asylum seekers that have been accepted onto have yet been made. There may also be errors due to the fast track process. Data for 2010 onwards are available coding inconsistencies that have not yet been investigated in Table as.11, in asylum excel tables volume 4 of the and corrected. quarterly Immigration Statistics. 795W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 796W

The latest release Immigration Statistics April-June which for practical reasons, including infectiousness or contagiousness, 2012 is available in the Library of the House and from cannot be properly managed within a detained environment; the Home Office Science website at: Those who clearly lack the mental capacity or coherence to http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- sufficiently understand the asylum process and/or cogently present statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ their claim. This consideration will usually be based on medical information, but where medical information is unavailable, officers Information for 2008 and 2009 is available from the must apply their judgement as to an individual’s apparent capacity; Control of Immigration: Statistics United Kingdom Those for whom there has been a reasonable grounds decision 2009 and 2008 Supplementary Tables (Tables 2s and 2u taken (and maintained) by a competent authority stating that the in 2009, Tables 2r and 2t in 2008). Information prior to applicant is a potential victim of trafficking or where there has 2008 is available from the Asylum Statistics, United been a conclusive decision taken by a competent authority stating Kingdom, 2001 to 2007 Bulletins. These are also available that the applicant is a victim of trafficking; from the Library of the House or: Those in respect of whom there is independent evidence of http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/ torture. http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/asylum.html Firearms: Licensing Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what safeguards she has put in Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home (a) (b) place to prevent victims of torture and other vulnerable Department (1) how many firearms and shotgun applicants from being assigned to the detained fast certificates were issued in (i) Avon and Somerset Constabulary area and (ii) England in each year from 2001 to 2012; track process. [131057] [131079] Mr Harper: Published policy has specific “suitability (2) how many (a) firearms and (b) shotgun certificates exclusion criteria” to prevent entry into the detained were revoked in each year from 2001 to 2012; [131080] fast track process of those accepted as being particularly (3) how many revocations of certificates for firearms vulnerable, including victims of torture. Suitability for or shotguns there were in each year from 2001 to 2012 the process is reviewed throughout an individual’s detention, to date; [131332] not just at the point of prospective entry. If at any stage (4) how many firearm or shotgun certificates were it is clear that the suitability exclusion criteria are engaged, issued in (a) Avon and Somerset Constabulary area the detainee would be released from the detained fast and (b) England in each year from 2001 to 2012 to date. track process. Criteria includes: [131335] Women who are 24 or more weeks pregnant; Family cases; Damian Green: The following tables provide numbers Children (whether applicants or dependants), whose claimed of (a) firearms and (b) shotgun certificates issued and date of birth is accepted by the UK Border Agency; revoked in (i) Avon and Somerset Constabulary area Those with a disability which cannot be adequately managed and (ii) total for England for each of the years 2001 to within a detained environment; 2011-12. Those with a physical or mental medical condition which Figures for 2012-13 will be published in 2013 (date to cannot be adequately treated within a detained environment, or be confirmed).

Firearm certificates: grants of applications and revocations, 2001 to 2011-12—England and Wales Number Applications granted Variation of Police force area New applications Renewal applications certificate Revocations

2011-12 Avon and Somerset 421 1,439 362 44 England 10,646 33,341 8,398 317 England and Wales 11,502 35,723 8,951 349

2010-11 Avon and Somerset 449 1,448 358 41 England 10,545 31,969 8,478 368 England and Wales 11,286 34,132 9,054 404

2009-10 Avon and Somerset 343 570 313 18 England 8,909 12,713 7,513 274 England and Wales 9,462 13,500 7,975 302

2008-09 Avon and Somerset 366 284 327 10 England 9,415 9,109 7,709 245 England and Wales 10,046 9,668 8,201 260

2007-8 Avon and Somerset 431 1,268 292 14 England 10,796 27,700 7,503 231 797W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 798W

Firearm certificates: grants of applications and revocations, 2001 to 2011-12—England and Wales Number Applications granted Variation of Police force area New applications Renewal applications certificate Revocations

England and Wales 11,601 30,158 8,021 248

2006-07 1— n/a n/a n/a n/a

2005-06 Avon and Somerset 305 1,107 261 8 England 8,012 27,244 4,973 186 England and Wales 8,615 29,135 5,183 196

2004-05 Avon and Somerset 359 318 304 9 England 8,489 7,611 5,437 240 England and Wales 9,055 8,311 5,646 258

2003-04 Avon and Somerset 261 141 225 8 England 7,178 3,886 4,914 181 England and Wales 7,673 4,116 5,161 195

2002-03 Avon and Somerset 300 975 150 10 England 7,947 23,315 4,572 175 England and Wales 8,562 25,136 4,885 188

2001 Avon and Somerset 266 1,295 n/a 11 England 6,734 29,172 n/a 298 England and Wales 7,120 31,257 n/a 309 n/a = figures not available 1 Figures are not available due to the transition from in-force data collection systems to the NFLMS in 2006. Note: Figures for calendar years are as at 31 December, financial years as at 31 March. Source: Home Office Shotgun certificates: grants of applications and revocations, 2001 to 2011-12—England and Wales Number Applications granted Police force area New applications Renewal applications Revocations

2011-12 Avon and Somerset 899 5,039 123 England 29,173 126,735 1,221 England and Wales 31,254 137,278 1,301

2010-11 Avon and Somerset 911 5,044 104 England 27,371 119,791 1,293 England and Wales 29,068 130,737 1,379

2009-10 Avon and Somerset 816 1,666 40 England 22,752 44,179 977 England and Wales 23,950 47,137 1,076

2008-09 Avon and Somerset 854 743 54 England 24,024 23,969 941 England and Wales 25,411 25,408 1,009

2007-8 Avon and Somerset 1,146 4,360 47 England 30,297 111,727 868 England and Wales 32,358 123,766 903

2006-07 Not available (see table n/a n/a n/a note 2) 799W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 800W

Shotgun certificates: grants of applications and revocations, 2001 to 2011-12—England and Wales Number Applications granted Police force area New applications Renewal applications Revocations

2005-6 Avon and Somerset 829 5,173 36 England 23,520 128,701 659 England and Wales 25,220 141,084 699

2004-05 Avon and Somerset 714 1,751 37 England 22,130 42,580 684 England and Wales 23,426 46,577 745

2003-04 Avon and Somerset 760 513 31 England 21,240 12,645 604 England and Wales 22,476 13,470 684

2002-03 Avon and Somerset 656 4,330 26 England 24,339 113,521 559 England and Wales 26,144 125,158 623

2001 Avon and Somerset 586 5,879 35 England 21,389 149,307 751 England and Wales 22,710 162,368 810 n/a = figures not available 1 Figures are not available due to the transition from in-force data collection systems to the NFLMS in 2006. Note: Figures for calendar years are as at 31 December, financial years as at 31 March. Source: Home Office

Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: This information is not held centrally Home Department (1) what the cost, including related by the Home Office. It is for the chief officer of police expenses and overheads, to the public purse was of for the force concerned to respond to appeals against renewing a firearm or shotgun certificate for an applicant the refusal to grant or renew a firearm or shot gun in each year from 2001 to 2012 to date; certificate. [131333] (2) what the cost, including related expenses and Members: Correspondence overheads, to the public purse was of granting a firearm or shotgun certificate to a new applicant in each year Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State from 2001 to 2012 to date; [131334] for the Home Department when she plans to answer (3) what the cost was to a new applicant, including the letter sent to her by the right hon. Member for related expenses and overheads, of granting a firearm Manchester, Gorton on 23 October 2012, with regard or shotgun certificate in each of the years from 2001 to to Ms S Small. [131679] 2012; [131145] (4) what the cost was to the applicant, including Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Gentleman on related expenses and overheads, of renewing a firearm 4 December 2012. or shotgun certificate in each of the years from 2001 to 2012. [131146] Offences Against Children Damian Green: Fees for firearm and shotgun certificates are laid down in the Firearms Act 1968 and are set at Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for £50 for the issue of a new certificate and £40 for a the Home Department (1) what steps she has taken renewal. These fees are currently being reviewed and to establish mechanisms for monitoring the extent of information provided by the police is being analysed as (a) violence, (b) sexual abuse, (c) neglect, (d) maltreatment part of this process to establish the present cost of and (e) exploitation of children in (i) the family setting, processing applications. (ii) schools and (iii) institutional and other care settings; [129773] Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for the (2) what estimate she has made of the proportion of Home Department how many appeals were lodged children who experience (a) violence, (b) sexual abuse, against refusal to grant or renew a firearms or shotgun (c) neglect, (d) maltreatment and (e) exploitation in certificate in each of the years from 2001 to 2012. (i) the family setting, (ii) schools and (iii) institutional [131466] and other care settings. [129774] 801W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 802W

Mr Timpson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Damian Green [holding answer 4 December 2012]: the Department for Education. The Police and Crime Commissioner’s (PCC) chief The Local Safeguarding Children Board is the key executive should subject all claims for expenses to rigorous statutory mechanism for agreeing how the relevant verification and auditing. organisations in each local area will co-operate to safeguard Under the Elected Local Policing Bodies (Specified and promote the welfare of children in that locality, and Information) Order 2011, PCCs are required to publish for ensuring the effectiveness of what they do. This the expenses paid to them and to their deputies in the includes monitoring the effectiveness of arrangements exercise of the PCC’s functions. made by the local authority, schools, police and others locally to safeguard children. Prisoners: Asylum The available information on children who experience abuse or neglect is in the following table. The Department Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the does not hold information on the proportion of children Home Department how many (a) men and (b) women who experience violence, sexual abuse, neglect, maltreatment in prison in the UK had before conviction applied for or exploitation. asylum in the UK (i) successfully and (ii) unsuccessfully. [131689] Children in Need in England at 31 March 2012 with a primary need of abuse or neglect Mr Harper: To obtain a figure for those currently in Rate per 10,000 prison who have previously applied for asylum would Number children involve the UK Border Agency analysing a large volume of individual paper and electronic records, which would Children in Need 369,41.0 325.7 incur a disproportionate cost. Of which: Had a primary need of abuse or neglect 168,270 148.4 Tobacco: Smuggling Source: Children in Need census Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Offensive Weapons: Licensing the Home Department what her Department spent on salaries for full-time equivalent staff allocated to the Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for the tackling tobacco smuggling strategy in (a) 2010-11 and Home Department (1) how many licences for prohibited (b) 2011-12. [131510] weapons were issued by permission of the Secretary of State to private individuals in each year since 2000; and Mr Harper: Border Force operates a flexible work for what purposes such licences were issued; [131492] force model based around multi-skilled officers who (2) how many licences for prohibited weapons were operate in different locations. The duties of our officers issued by permission of the Secretary of State to can range from the detection of different types of goods privately-owned companies in each year since 2000; including tobacco and drugs, to the clearance of passengers and for what purposes such licences were issued. at the UK Border, depending on expected demand. Our [131493] officers are not dedicated to specific types of detection or clearance of passengers. Therefore there are no records Damian Green: Licences are only issued where a which show the amount spent on salaries for full-time genuine need to possess prohibited weapons has been equivalent staff allocated to the tackling tobacco smuggling clearly demonstrated. In most instances, this will relate strategy. to the manufacture, sale or transfer of prohibited weapons by way of trade or business. Authorities have also been issued to individuals for a number of specific purposes. For example, the testing and evaluation of weapons, for INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT forensic purposes or most recently for the purposes of competing in the London Olympics. The information Africa requested in relation to the number of authorities issued since 2000 can be obtained only at disproportionate James Duddridge: To ask the Secretary of State for cost. International Development what recent discussions she has had with the financial services sector in the UK on Passports: Scotland how its skills and expertise could be used in Africa. [131218] John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate she has made of the Justine Greening: Ministers and officials in DFID’s number of residents of Scotland who (a) currently private sector department have frequent discussions own a UK passport and (b) will own a UK passport in with the UK financial services sector. They regularly 2014. [131455] consult UK and foreign-based banks, fund managers and other financial institutions in relation to our financial Mr Harper: The Identity and Passport Service does sector development policies, which seek innovative solutions not hold information on the basis of geographical to improve the lives of poor people as consumers, location of the applicant. suppliers, distributors or retailers. Police and Crime Commissioners Developing Countries: Sanitation Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Home Department who has responsibility for authorising for International Development what plans she has to expenses of police and crime commissioners. [131513] mark WaterAid’s World Toilet Day campaign. [131313] 803W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 804W

Lynne Featherstone: DFID marked World Toilet Day Justine Greening: I am aware that the Ministry of in several ways: Health of Iraq, in collaboration with World Health By contributing a blog piece entitled ‘Girls, Women and Organisation, is currently undertaking a study on the Sanitation—Dignity matters’, as part of WaterAid’s “Thunderclap” prevalence of congenital birth defects in Iraq. World Toilet day blog event; I understand that the results of this study are expected By holding a seminar in DFID’s Palace street headquarters, to be published at the beginning of 2013. featuring both internal and external speakers, on “the role of sanitation and hygiene in improving child survival and development”; Overseas Aid An all-day exhibition in DFID Palace street atrium which included a display stand with various posters on sanitation and Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State hygiene. for International Development what progress the Government has made in implementing its pledge to Haiti double the provision of water, hygiene and sanitation by 2015 to 60 million. [131312]

Paul Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Lynne Featherstone: Our current or planned programmes International Development which projects in Haiti include: have been supported by the Government since the 1. Programmes managed by our offices in countries in Africa earthquake in January 2010; what the cost was of those and Asia. We currently have water, sanitation and hygiene (WASH) projects; and how many people in Haiti have been programmes in 15 countries and these are the principal routes assisted. [131214] through which we will deliver our results; 2, Existing partnerships with a range of organisations such as Lynne Featherstone: The UK Government has provided the Water and Sanitation Program, Water and Sanitation for the a total of £30 million of humanitarian assistance in Urban Poor and WaterAid. Haiti since January 2010; £18.5 million in response to In addition, the Department is exploring further the 2010 earthquake, £4.5 million in response to the options including new partnerships with the UN, civil Cholera outbreak (2010) and more recently £7 million society and the private sector. Once specific programmes to meet vital humanitarian needs following the devastation are approved, they will be made publically available via caused by Hurricane Sandy. the DFID website, alongside annual reviews of progress. A detailed list of projects funded and people assisted as part of the Haiti earthquake and Cholera response is available on DFID’s website. JUSTICE Details on projects funded in response to Hurricane Charitable Donations: Fraud Sandy will be available on the DFID website soon. Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Horn of Africa Justice (a) how many prosecutions there have been and (b) what the average sentence was for crimes Sir Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of related to fraud and theft in respect of bogus charitable State for International Development what progress house-to-house clothing collections in each of the last her Department has made on implementing the two years. [131330] recommendation of the Independent Commission for Jeremy Wright: Information held centrally by the Aid Impact report on her Department’s Humanitarian Ministry of Justice on the Court Proceedings Database Emergency Response in the Horn of Africa that her does not contain information about the circumstances Department should work towards a cohesive early behind each case, beyond the description provided in warning system, with triggers for action pre-agreed the statute under which proceedings are brought. It is with other key organisations and governments. [131316] therefore not possible to separately identify crimes of fraud and theft in respect of bogus house-to-house Justine Greening: In September 2012, the Department charitable clothing collections from other offences of for International Development (DFID) accepted the fraud and theft. recommendations of the Independent Commission for Aid Impact report on the Humanitarian Emergency Crimes of Violence: Sentencing Response in the Horn of Africa. In March 2013, DFID will report on progress in implementing these Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice recommendations, including on agreeing triggers for how many people aged (a) 18 or younger and (b) over early action with selected partners. This report will be 18 (i) have been prosecuted for and (ii) have received available publically on DFID’s website. a custodial sentence for an offence of (A) murder, (B) attempted murder, (C) wounding with intent to do Iraq grievous bodily harm and (D) wounding or inflicting grievous bodily harm without intent in each of the last five years. [131180] Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment she has Jeremy Wright: The number of persons proceeded made of current World Health Organisation research against at magistrates court, and found guilty and sentenced into the rates of congenital malformations across Iraq to immediate custody at all courts, for the selected and their potential link to the environmental legacy of offences, by the requested age groups, in England and Coalition military activities; and if she will make a Wales, from 2007 to 2011, can be viewed in the following statement. [131564] tables. 805W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 806W

Defendants proceeded against at magistrates court and sentenced to immediate custody at all courts, for selected offences, by age, England and Wales, 2007-111, 2 2007 20083 Of which: Of which: Proceeded Found Immediate Proceeded Found Immediate Offence and age breakdown against guilty Sentenced5 custody against guilty Sentenced5 custody

Murder 18 and younger 155 40 40 40 119 40 40 40 Over 18 657 329 329 329 585 399 399 399 Attempted murder 18 and younger 57 4 4 2 39 5 5 4 Over 18 276 83 83 72 276 88 88 77 Grievous bodily harm5 18 and younger 1,200 389 384 297 1,106 327 327 285 Over 18 4,267 1,344 1,350 1,251 4,730 1,334 1,337 1,263 Inflicting grievous bodily harm6 18 and younger 1,014 925 924 327 887 815 817 313 Over 18 3,171 3,529 3,563 1,832 3,115 3,536 3,524 1,875

2009 2010 Of which: Of which: Proceeded Found Immediate Proceeded Found Immediate Offence and age breakdown against guilty Sentenced5 custody against guilty Sentenced5 custody

Murder 18 and younger 100 39 39 39 111 28 28 28 Over 18 554 337 337 337 519 318 318 318 Attempted murder 18 and younger 56 4 4 4 33 6 6 4 Over 18 277 87 88 80 279 83 83 78 Grievous bodily harm5 18 and younger 1,233 268 268 227 1,231 281 279 233 Over 18 5,439 1,408 1,406 1,326 5,558 1,456 1,455 1,371 Inflicting grievous bodily harm6 18 and younger 902 833 832 332 896 794 787 244 Over 18 3,272 3,853 3,832 2,235 3,510 4,153 4,134 2,227

2011 Of which: Immediate Offence and age breakdown Proceeded against Found guilty Sentenced5 custody

Murder 18 and younger 75 23 23 23 Over 18 556 320 320 320 Attempted murder 18 and younger 38 4 4 4 Over 18 264 90 90 78 Grievous bodily harm5 18 and younger 950 228 227 182 Over 18 5,062 1,551 1,550 1,470 Inflicting grievous bodily harm6 18 and younger 698 638 631 216 Over 18 3,052 3,824 3,810 2,206 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. 4 The number of offenders sentenced can differ from those found guilty as it may be the case that a defendant found guilty in a particular year, and committed for sentence at the Crown court, may be sentenced in the following year. 5 Offences against the Person Act 1861, s18 6 Offences against the Person Act 1861, s20 Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. 807W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 808W

Debt Collection Jeremy Wright: We do not anticipate that the changes to legal aid from 2013 will impact significantly on local Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State authorities’ ability to look after children and care leavers for Justice what assessment he has made of the recent with immigration claims. Unaccompanied migrant children focus report by the Local Government Ombudsman become part of the care system and as such are entitled entitled Taking possession: Councils’ use of bailiffs for to the full range of support and services as all looked local debt collection; and if he will consider after children. Post age 18, subject to their immigration incorporating the recommendations made in the report status, many will be treated as care leavers and will into the Government’s review of bailiff reforms. continue to be entitled to a range of support from local [131349] authorities. Legal aid will remain available for asylum cases, Mrs Grant: The Local Government Ombudsman’s which will account for the vast majority of cases brought recent focus report, ‘Taking Possession: Councils’ use by unaccompanied children. Victims of trafficking, of bailiffs for local debt collection’, is a very helpful including children, will also be able to get funding for report which highlights the need for reform to bailiff legal advice in relation to immigration or damages claims. law. Legal Aid Scheme Its recommendations will be taken into consideration during the finalisation of the Government response. Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will estimate the number of men who Driving Offences: A14 claimed falsely that they were fathers of children using legal aid to do so in the last year for which figures are Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice available. [131264] how many arrests for speeding offences on the A14 in Suffolk have resulted in a (a) successful conviction, Jeremy Wright: The Legal Services Commission does (b) caution and (c) fixed penalty notice in each of the not collect figures on the number of cases it funds last three years; and what the aggregate value was of involving paternity. As such, this information is not the resulting fines in each such year. [130319] readily available. Jeremy Wright: Information held centrally by the Magistrates’ Courts: Nottinghamshire Ministry of Justice on the Court Proceedings Database does not contain information about the circumstances Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for behind each case, beyond the description provided in Justice how many proceedings for criminal offences there the statute under which proceedings are brought. It is were in each magistrates court in Northamptonshire in not possible to identify from this centrally held information each year since 1997. [131704] the specific location of each speeding offence. Jeremy Wright: The number of defendants proceeded Immigration: Children against at magistrates court, for selected local justice areas within Northamptonshire, for the years 1997 to Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 (the latest available), are provided in the following Justice what assessment he has made of the potential tables. effect of planned changes to legal aid from April 2013 Figures are provided at local justice area level as data on local authorities’ ability to meet their statutory collated centrally by the Ministry of Justice do not obligations to look after children and care leavers with allow the separate identification of defendants proceeded immigration claims. [131138] against at individual magistrates courts.

Defendants proceeded against at magistrates court, for selected local justice areas within Northamptonshire, 1997 to 20111,2 Local justice area 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

Corby 1,822 2,042 2,181 2,177 1,640 1,673 2,411 3,153 Daventry 1,866 1,795 1,759 1,276 1,222 801 2,116 1,913 Kettering 3,059 3,086 3,052 2,685 2,545 2,086 3,312 3,397 Northampton 8,707 9,484 10,443 9,409 7,365 6,765 10,994 11,473 Towcester 1,546 1,373 1,389 987 812 736 2,314 2,104 Wellingborough 3,122 4,316 4,174 3,893 3,085 2,465 3,968 4,640

Local justice area 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 20113

Corby 2,351 2,063 1,288 1,681 1,974 2,026 2,339 Daventry 1,655 2,068 1,388 1,268 1,601 1,264 280 Kettering 2,944 2,763 2,443 2,380 2,684 2,944 2,292 Northampton 10,364 9,204 7,029 7,588 7,554 8,440 8,152 Towcester 1,682 1,073 1,043 787 1,114 958 234 Wellingborough 3,471 2,673 2,118 2,156 2,764 3,057 2,442 809W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 810W

1 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Daventry and Towcester LJAs merged with Northampton LJA in 1 April 2011. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice

Young Offender Institutions Table 2: Average population in the under 18 secure estate by sector Under 18s SCH STC YOI

Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 162 274 1,565 Justice (1) what the capacity was of (a) secure children’s 2012 (to date) 155 274 1,335 homes, (b) secure training centres and (c) young offender Notes: 1. The average population for 2012 has been calculated using the most institutions in England and Wales in (i) 2011 and (ii) 2012 recent data available (from January to September). to date; [131324] 2. The figures are not comparable across the years as full data for 2012 are not yet available. 3. The figures from April 2011 onwards are provisional. The figures (2) how many people under the age of 18 were held for 2011 will be finalised in the 2011-12 Youth Justice Statistics publication on 31 January 2013. Provisional data for subsequent in custody in (a) secure children’s homes, (b) secure months are published on a monthly basis: training centres and (c) young offender institutions in http://www.justice.gov.uk/statistics/youth-justice/custody-data England and Wales in (i) 2011 and (ii) 2012 to date. 4. These figures have been drawn from operational sources and IT [131325] systems, which are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing and can be subject to change over time. Sources: 1. The data for SCHs, STCs and under 18 YOIs have been provided Jeremy Wright: Table 1 shows the average capacity in from the Youth Justice Board (YJB) 2. Data on All YOIs have been provided by the National Offender England and Wales for (a) secure children’s homes Management Service (NOMS) (SCHs)(b)securetrainingcentres(STCs)and(c)predominant function young offender institutions (YOIs) in (i) 2011 Young Offenders: Literacy and (ii) 2012 to date. There are two types of YOIs (under-18 YOIs and young adult YOIs which accommodate 18 to 21-year-olds). A combined figure for all YOIs as Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice well as a separate figure for under-18 YOIs is included in how many children in (a) secure children’s homes, Table 1 for comparison purposes. (b) secure training centres and (c) youth offending institutions were unable to read and write at the appropriate level for their age at 1 November (i) 2008, (ii) 2009, [131698] Table 1: Average capacity in SCHs, STCs and YOIs (iii) 2010, (iv) 2011 and (v) 2012. Under Jeremy Wright: Every young person’s literacy level is SCH STC 18s YOI All YOIs assessed as they enter a secure children’s home (SCH), 2011 185 301 2,151 8,242 secure training centre (STC) or under-18 youth offending institution (YOI), but the data are not collected centrally 2012 (to date) 172 301 2,024 8,092 for the entire youth secure estate. For under-18 public Notes: YOIs, the Education Funding Agency collects information 1. The average capacity for 2012 has been calculated using the most on the literacy levels of young people entering the recent data available. For SCHs, STCs and Under 18 YOIs this is from establishments; however these levels cannot be directly January until September, for all YOIs this is from January to October. compared to a specific age equivalent. 2. The figures are not comparable across the years as full data for 2012 are not yet available. 3. Only those establishments with a predominant function of young offender institution are shown in the above table (All YOIs). Dual-use NORTHERN IRELAND establishments with other predominant functions are not included. 4. The operational capacity of a secure establishment is the total Economy number of offenders that an establishment can hold taking into account control, security and the proper operation of the planned regime. It is determined by Directors of Offender Management on the 11. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for basis of operational judgement and experience. Northern Ireland what discussions she has had with Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive on rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy. [130914] Table 2 shows the average number of young people under the age of 18 held in custody at any one time in Mrs Villiers: I have regular discussions with Executive England and Wales in (a) secure children’s homes Ministers on economic matters. The Joint Ministerial (SCHs) (b) secure training centres (STCs) and (c) under Working Group on Rebalancing the Northern Ireland 18-year-old young offender institutions (YOIs) in (i) economy met for the last time on 18 October, and has 2011 and (ii) 2012 to date. now reported to the Prime Minister. 811W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 812W

Security Situation Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport who will be responsible for deciding the successful 12. Graeme Morricc: To ask the Secretary of State bidder for the Crossrail rolling stock contracts. for Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has [131275] made of the security situation in Northern Ireland. Stephen Hammond: Crossrail Limited which is a wholly [130915] owned subsidiary of Transport for London and is 14. Bob Blackman: To ask the Secretary of State for responsible for the procurement process and deciding Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has made the successful bidder for the Crossrail Rolling Stock of the security situation in Northern Ireland; and if she and Depot contract. will make a statement. [130917] The sponsors of the project (Transport for London and Department for Transport) will only be asked to 15. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State approve the final decision. for Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has made of the security situation in Northern Ireland; and Cycleways if she will make a statement. [130918] Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mrs Villiers: I refer the hon. Gentlemen to the answer what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State I gave earlier today to my hon. Friends the Members for for Health on the provision of cycle lanes following the Dartford (Gareth Johnson), Macclesfield (David Rutley) publication of guidelines on cycling from the National and Central Devon (Mel Stride). Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. [131434] Fuel Poverty Norman Baker: I have regular discussions with the 13. Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for Minister for Public Health, the Hon Member for Broxtowe, Northern Ireland what steps she has taken to tackle (Anna Soubry) to consider how we can best support fuel poverty in Northern Ireland in response to the people who wish to travel actively, including by bike. On findings of the recent Office of Fair Trading report on the day the National Institute for Health and Clinical remote rural communities. [130916] Excellence (NICE) published its guidance, Anna Soubry and I addressed a conference of local transport and Mike Penning: Tackling fuel poverty in Northern health professionals on the subject of active travel. I Ireland is an entirely devolved matter for Executive announced £20m of new investment in cycling, adding Ministers and not a matter for which I or my ministerial to the £45m for cycle safety and linking communities colleagues have any responsibility. unveiled earlier this year and the broader £600m Local Sustainable Transport Fund. The NICE guidance will make an important contribution to getting best value TRANSPORT from this investment and encouraging more people to cycle, more safely, more often. Bus Partnership Forum Cycleways: Leicester Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when (a) he or (b) his Ministers have met Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Bus Partnership Forum in 2012. [131301] Transport if he will provide funding to introduce more cycle lanes in Leicester. [131433] Norman Baker: The Bus Partnership Forum (BPF) meets twice yearly and is chaired by me. In 2012, Norman Baker: The planning and provision of cycle meetings of the BPF were held on Wednesday 18 January lanes and other cycling infrastructure in Leicester is a and Tuesday 17 July. matter for Leicester City Council. In addition to Integrated Crossrail Line Block Funding available to all local authorities for local capital improvements, I awarded £4.4m to Leicester in Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for July 2011 for their Local Sustainable Transport Fund Transport whether support for UK jobs will be a factor bid ″Leicester Fit for Business″. This project includes a in the assessment of bids for the Crossrail rolling stock number of measures to improve cycling facilities and contract. [131274] services in Leicester. Stephen Hammond: The Instructions for Tenderers Go North East that was issued as part of the Invitation to Negotiate (ITN) on 28 February 2012, requires bidders to set out Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for how they will engage with the wider supply chain and Transport how many route change submissions Go provide opportunities for training, apprenticeships, and North East has made to the Traffic Commissioner small and medium size businesses within their procurement since 1 January 2012. [131302] strategy.Bidders are also required to establish an appropriate local presence to manage the delivery of the contract. Stephen Hammond: There are two operator licences Bidders are also being asked, in the Invitation to held by entities trading as Go North East. Negotiate, to specify from where each element of the Go North East Ltd hold licence number PB0003954. contract will be sourced. This is not an assessment Since 1 January 2012 they have submitted 29 registrations criterion in the decision process however the successful for new local bus services, 138 applications to vary an bidder will be required to report against their proposed existing local bus service registration and 29 applications estimates. to cancel a local bus service registration. 813W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 814W

Go Northern Ltd t/a Go North East hold licence number Mr Simon Burns: Network Rail estimates that, subject PB0002400. Since 1 January 2012 they have submitted to achieving planning consents, the Ordsall Chord and 13 registrations for new local bus services, 84 applications some line speed and capacity improvements will be to vary an existing local bus service registration and completed by December 2016 and the Castlefield corridor 22 applications to cancel a local bus service registration. and other capacity improvements will be completed by December 2018. High Speed 2 Railway Line Railways: Fares Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what due diligence has been exercised by his Maria Eagle: Toask the Secretary of State for Transport Department to ensure that High Speed Rail 2 complies what comparative assessment he has made of the level with the requirements of Directive 92/43/EEC on the of fare evasion on each of the train franchises. conservation of natural habitats and of wild fauna and [131163] flora and the Conservation of Habitats and Species Norman Baker: No comparative assessment has been Regulations 2010; and if he will make a statement. made of the level of fare evasion on each of the train [131210] companies. Mr Simon Burns: The Department understands the There are provisions in the Franchise Agreement requirements of the Habitats Directive and the Conservation requiring train operators to have policies in place designed of Habitats and Species Regulations 2010 and has to reduce ticketless travel and fare evasion in a cost-effective carefully considered them in connection with HS2. manner, taking account of the circumstances of the individual franchises. Officials have regular discussions with colleagues from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Thameslink Railway Line and Natural England on these matters and we will take all necessary steps to ensure compliance with these Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for requirements. Transport with reference to the Thameslink rolling stock contract, what the planned dates are for the cascade of Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for the old Thameslink rolling stock from Thameslink to Transport what steps his Department is taking to Great Western and Northern Rail services. [131272] ensure that the processes being followed on High Speed Rail 2 comply with the EU Water Framework Directive Mr Simon Burns: We are working with industry partners and the Water Environment (Water Framework Directive) to ensure that sufficient rolling stock is in place to meet (England and Wales) Regulations 2003; and if he will the requirements for North West electrification in December 2014 and Great Western electrification in 2016. make a statement. [131211] Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Simon Burns: My Department has carefully Transport if the cascade of the old Thameslink rolling considered the requirements of the EU Water Framework stock to the Great Western and Northern Rail services Directive and the Water Environment Regulations 2003 is delayed what alternative provision he plans to make in connection with HS2. for passengers. [131273] My Officials have regular discussions with colleagues from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Mr Simon Burns: We are working with our industry Affairs and Environment Agency on these matters and partners to ensure that sufficient rolling stock is provided we will take all necessary steps to ensure compliance for the start of electric passenger services in the North with these requirements. West in 2014 and on the Great Western in 2016. Tolls Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate he has made of the likely Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for level of additional funding for the proposed Western Transport whether his Department has plans to introduce Connection to Heathrow; and what proportion of that tolling on enhanced roads; and if he will make a statement. funding will be (a) provided by the Government and [131182] (b) sought from a third party. [131940] Stephen Hammond: The Government has made a Mr Simon Burns: The July 2012 High Level Output clear commitment not to introduce new tolls on existing Specification includes provision for £500 million of road capacity and there are no plans to change this funding for a new western rail access to Heathrow position. airport, subject to business case and agreement of terms As we have previously stated, we will examine the with the Heathrow aviation industry. The rail industry case for tolling new routes or substantially enhanced is currently developing plans for the delivery of the routes where increased capacity will lead to a transformation scheme within the allocated funding. The cost of the link in their performance. and availability of private funding will be considered in detail as the rail industry develops the proposal. Travel: Young People

Northern Rail Maria Eagle: Toask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to respond to the recommendations of Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for the British Youth Council Transport Select Committee Transport what his timetable is for completion of investment report entitled Transport and young people published in the Northern rail hub. [131884] in September 2012. [131625] 815W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 816W

Norman Baker: The YouthSelect Committee published PAYE its report ‘Transport and Young People’ on 5 November 2012. The Government aims to respond to the Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the recommendations in the report within two months of Exchequer how many providers of payroll software its publication date. have held meetings with officials in his Department in World War II: Anniversaries the last 12 months. [131096]

Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gauke: Treasury Ministers and officials have Transport what discussions the Parliamentary Under-Secretary meetings and discussions with a wide variety of stakeholders of State has had with (a) his ministerial colleagues in as part of policy development and delivery. As was the the Ministry of Defence and (b) the Mayor of London case with previous Administrations, it is not the on the Government’s plans to commemorate the Battle Government’s practice to provide details of all such of the Atlantic in 2013 or 2014. [130857] meetings and discussions. Stephen Hammond: I refer to my previous answer to Regional Planning and Development the hon. Member on 22 November 2012, Official Report, column 542W, in which I referred to the reply given by Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the the Minister of State for Defence, Personnel, Welfare Exchequer whether he has any plans to further extend and Veterans on the Ministry of Defence’s discussions the powers conferred under the City Deal to smaller to support civil society-led commemorations for the regional cities; and if he will make a statement. 70th anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic. Officials [131451] will keep in touch on the progress of those requests. I have no immediate plans to talk to the Mayor of Greg Clark [holding answer 4 December 2012]: Iam London on this subject. responding as the Minister responsible for City Deals. The first wave of city deals with the eight core cities were completed on 5 July 2012. Building on their progress, TREASURY the second wave of city deals with an additional 20 cities was announced on 29 October. The Government is Air Passenger Duty committed to continue to devolve power to cities to foster local economic growth and aims to have completed Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the deals with the next wave by autumn 2013. Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 22 November 2012, Official Report, column 556W, on air passenger Revenue and Customs: Complaints duty, whether he plans to submit HM Revenue and Custom’s research on the effect that differential prices Alison McGovern: To ask the Chancellor of the at UK airports could have on the overall demand for Exchequer what steps he is taking to improve HM aviation and on passengers’ choice of airport to the Revenue and Customs systems for handling complaints Independent Commission on Aviation chaired by Sir to prevent unacceptable delays in complaint resolution. Howard Davies. [131362] [131208] Sajid Javid: The HM Revenue and Customs’ research Mr Gauke: HMRC monitors all aspects of the is available publicly and the Commission can consider complaints handling system. They work very closely whether it is relevant to their work. with the independent adjudicator to reduce any delays Child Benefit: Barnsley and improve the service they provide to customers.

Dan Jarvis: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Tax Avoidance how many families in Barnsley Central constituency will be affected by his proposed reform of child benefit. Paul Flynn: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer [131682] with which offshore tax havens based in crown dependencies and overseas territories the UK has an Mr Gauke: An estimate of the number of people information-sharing agreement on owners of offshore affected by the high income child benefit charge in the trusts and companies; and with which the UK is in the Barnsley Central constituency is not available. process of negotiating such an agreement. [131317] Olympic Games 2012: National Lottery Mr Gauke: The UK has tax information exchange Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreements with all the Crown Dependencies—Guernsey, what recent representations he has received on the Isle of Man, and Jersey— and the following Overseas reimbursement to the Big Lottery Fund of sums Territories: Anguilla, Bermuda, the British Virgin Islands, contributed to the London 2012 Olympics. [131475] Gibraltar, and the Turks and Caicos Islands. Comprehensive double taxation agreements are in place with the Falkland Danny Alexander: Treasury Ministers and officials Islands and Montserrat and a limited double taxation meet with, and receive representations from, a wide agreement is in place with the Cayman Islands. All these range of organisations and individuals in the public and agreements allow the exchange of information (including private sectors as part of the usual policymaking process. information on companies and trusts) to the standard As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not adopted by the Global Forum on Transparency and the Government’s practice to provide details of all such Exchange of Information. The UK keeps all its treaties representations. under review. 817W Written Answers5 DECEMBER 2012 Written Answers 818W

Paul Flynn: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State what recent assessment HM Revenue and Customs has for Work and Pensions pursuant to his answer of undertaken of the use by companies of nominee directors 20 November 2012, Official Report, columns 455-6W, to evade payment of tax in the UK. [131318] on universal credit, how employees earning less than the lower earnings limit and outside PAYE will self- Mr Gauke: Information relating to evasion at this report their earnings; whether they will be required level of detail is available only at a disproportionate to do so weekly if they are paid weekly; and how they cost. On 18 October 2012 HMRC published ‘Measuring will be informed of this requirement. [131699] Tax Gaps 2012’ which sets out estimates of the tax gap, including that arising from tax evasion: Mr Hoban: The universal credit design will allow all http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/tax-gaps/mtg-2012.pdf claimants to provide earnings details, including those The total tax gap is estimated to be around £32 billion outside of the PAYE system. Claimants will be required in 2010-11. Of this total figure, the estimated tax lost to to report their earnings monthly, initially by telephone evasion by all taxpayers and across all taxes was around and in due course on line. £4 billion. Claimants will be informed of this requirement when The tax lost to all evasion is around1%ofliabilities. they make their initial claim, however should they wish This low percentage shows that the vast majority of to report earnings more frequently than monthly they taxpayers do not evade tax, and HMRC is determined will be able to do so. to relentlessly pursue the few who bend or break the rules. Paul Flynn: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Work Programme what discussions he has had with his US counterpart on the role of that country’s Foreign Account Tax Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Compliance Act in the development of information- Work and Pensions on what date he was informed that sharing agreements with overseas territories and crown contractual minimum performance standards would dependencies. [131366] not be met by any prime provider in the first 12 months of the Work programme. [131686] Mr Gauke: The UK is working very closely with the US on the implementation of the Foreign Account Tax Mr Hoban: The Department, as per guidelines set by Compliance Act and will continue to do so. the UK Statistics Authority, was informed 24 hours Mr Meacher: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer before the release of the official job outcome statistics (1) if he will take steps to end the practice whereby any though we had early indications from unvalidated internal British or foreign person can avoid up to 5 per cent MI; on this basis, we issued letters to Work programme stamp duty being imposed on the next purchase by providers with the weakest performance to make clear holding their house in an offshore company; [131716] that they must do better. (2) if he will take steps to end the practice whereby Performance has built up more slowly than our initial offshore entities which are controlled and managed assumptions suggested; this is because participants are outside the UK do not pay any tax on the proceeds of building towards job outcomes through multiple periods property speculation. [131713] of shorter term employment. Providers are also taking longer than expected to track and claim outcomes. Our Mr Gauke: To ensure that those buying expensive aspiration for the total levels of outcomes to be achieved residential properties using companies pay their fair by providers remains the same. share, the Government has introduced a 15% rate of SDLT on residential properties over £2 million purchased Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for by certain non-natural persons. The Government has Work and Pensions whether any satisfaction data is also consulted on the introduction of an annual charge being collected from Work programme participants. on residential properties valued over £2 million owned [131687] by certain non-natural persons. In addition the Government has consulted on an extension to capital gains tax for Mr Hoban: The Department has commissioned an non-resident non-natural persons. Both are to be introduced independent evaluation of the Work programme, which in April 2013. includes a national survey of participants to explore their views on the support they have received. Initial WORK AND PENSIONS findings will be available from summer 2013; a final report will be published in 2014-15. Universal Credit Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 26 November for Work and Pensions at what stage in the course of 2012, Official Report, column 154W,on universal credit, the Work programme he expects to take contractual whether the universal credit project has at the current action in cases where providers fail to meet minimum date a Senior Responsible Officer who is active in post; performance levels; and in what circumstances contracts will be terminated. [131688] and who that person is. [131690] Mr Hoban: The answer to the right hon. Member’s Mr Hoban: We have issued letters to Work programme question has not changed since the replies I gave to his providers with the weakest performance to make clear questions, number 126554 on 5 November 2012, Official that they must do better. If performance does not Report, column 503W,and number 125963 on 31 October improve sufficiently next year, we have powers to terminate 2012, Official Report, column 312W. contracts. 7MC Ministerial Corrections5 DECEMBER 2012 Ministerial Corrections 8MC

Ministerial Correction Number (e) Libya 7.6 Wednesday 5 December 2012 (f) Egypt 11.1 (g) Israel 4.3 (h) Lebanon 3.2 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS (i) Jordan 5.1 (j) Iraq 5.2 Staff (k) Saudi Arabia 24.7 (l) UAE 25.3 Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for (m) Bahrain 4.2 Business, Innovation and Skills how many staff UK (n) Qatar 8.3 Trade and Investment employs in (a) Mauritania, (o) Oman 6.1 (b) Morocco, (c) Algeria, (d) Tunisia, (e) Libya, (f) Egypt, (g) Israel, (h) Lebanon, (i) Jordan, The correct answer should have been: (j) Iraq, (k) Saudi Arabia, (l) United Arab Emirates, (m) Bahrain, (n) Qatar and (o) Oman. [129298] Michael Fallon: UKTI is not an employer in its own [Official Report, 26 November 2012, Vol. 554, c. 115-16W.] right; for the majority of its human resource requirements Letter of correction from Michael Fallon: it draws on civil service staff employed by one or other of its two parent Departments—the Department for An error has been identified in the written answer Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) and the Foreign given to the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham and Commonwealth Office (FCO)—and staff from its (Daniel Kawczynski) on 26 November 2012. Due to an private sector contractors. administrative error, the figure for full-time equivalent (FTE) UKTI staff working in Israel excluded those The following figures are the full-time equivalent of working within the investment complement. people working to UKTI objectives in each market, bearing in mind that some staff on the network work The full answer given was as follows: across multiple objectives and record the appropriate percentage of their time to each. These figures were Michael Fallon: UKTI is not an employer in its own compiled after the end of Q2 of this financial year, and right; for the majority of its human resource requirements are the most up to date currently available. Inevitably it draws on civil service staff employed by one or other there may have been some changes to these figures since of its two parent Departments—the Department for they were compiled. Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO)—and staff from its Number private sector contractors. The following figures are the full-time equivalent of (a) Mauritania 0 people working to UKTI objectives in each market, (b) Morocco 5.1 bearing in mind that some staff on the network work (c) Algeria 3.3 across multiple objectives and record the appropriate (d) Tunisia 2.7 percentage of their time to each. These figures were (e) Libya 7.6 compiled after the end of Q2 of this financial year, and (f) Egypt 11.1 are the most up to date currently available. Inevitably (g) Israel 7.6 there may have been some changes to these figures since (h) Lebanon 3.2 they were compiled. (i) Jordan 5.1 (j) Iraq 5.2 Number (k) Saudi Arabia 24.7 (l) UAE 25.3 (a) Mauritania 0 (m) Bahrain 4.2 (b) Morocco 5.1 (n) Qatar 8.3 (c) Algeria 3.3 (o) Oman 6.1 (d) Tunisia 2.7

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 5 December 2012

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 849 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Afghanistan (Armed Forces Families)...... 854 Transferable Allowance (Married Couples)...... 855 De Silva Report...... 856 Youth Unemployment ...... 849 Dissident Republican Groups ...... 858 Inward Investment ...... 851 PRIME MINISTER ...... 858 Security (Cross-border Co-operation)...... 856 Al-Qaeda ...... 858 Security Situation...... 852 Engagements...... 859 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 5 December 2012

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 57WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 65WS Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre...... 57WS Justice and Home Affairs Council...... 65WS

DEFENCE...... 57WS JUSTICE...... 67WS Advisory Group on Military Medicine ...... 57WS Prison Service Pay Review Body ...... 67WS

EDUCATION...... 58WS TREASURY ...... 55WS School Teachers’ Review Body...... 58WS Customs 2020...... 55WS Finance Bill 2013: Measures with Immediate ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 62WS Effect ...... 55WS Gas Generation Strategy...... 62WS Fiscalis 2020...... 56WS

HEALTH...... 64WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 68WS NHS Pay Review Body/Senior Salaries Review Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Body ...... 64WS Affairs Council (EPSCO)...... 68WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 5 December 2012

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 9P CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 10P Innox Riverside development, Trowbridge...... 9P Sedgefield Library hours...... 10P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 5 December 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 755W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 765W Advantage West Midlands ...... 755W Business Rates Retention Scheme ...... 765W Arms Trade: Middle East...... 756W Housing: Fire Extinguishers...... 765W Business: Loans...... 757W Regional Development Agencies: Assets...... 766W Employment Tribunals Service...... 757W Social Rented Housing: East of England ...... 766W Foreign Companies...... 757W Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries...... 758W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 767W Natural Capital Committee...... 758W Film: Exports...... 767W Natural Resources...... 758W Property: Registration...... 759W DEFENCE...... 768W Armed Forces: Deployment ...... 768W CABINET OFFICE...... 760W Armed Forces: Recruitment ...... 771W Charitable Donations...... 760W Armed Forces: Sexual Offences...... 772W Emergency Planning College...... 760W Homelessness: Essex ...... 760W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 773W New Businesses: Devon...... 760W Lord-Lieutenants ...... 773W Regional Development Agencies: Assets...... 761W Training ...... 762W EDUCATION...... 774W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 762W Children: Homelessness ...... 774W Bishops: Females ...... 762W Children: Internet ...... 774W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Children: Performing Arts ...... 775W Offences Against Children ...... 800W Children: Temporary Accommodation ...... 775W Offensive Weapons: Licensing...... 801W Domestic Violence: Education ...... 776W Passports: Scotland...... 801W Foster Care ...... 776W Police and Crime Commissioners...... 801W Free Schools...... 777W Prisoners: Asylum...... 802W Jimmy Savile ...... 778W Tobacco: Smuggling...... 802W Schools: Admissions ...... 778W Schools: Playing Fields ...... 778W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 802W Schools: Sports ...... 779W Africa...... 802W Special Educational Needs...... 780W Developing Countries: Sanitation ...... 802W Teachers: Pensions ...... 780W Haiti...... 803W Horn of Africa...... 803W Iraq...... 803W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 781W Overseas Aid...... 804W Climate Change ...... 781W Energy: Scotland...... 781W JUSTICE...... 804W Fuel Poverty...... 781W Charitable Donations: Fraud ...... 804W Fuel Poverty: Chatham ...... 782W Crimes of Violence: Sentencing...... 804W Senior Civil Servants...... 782W Debt Collection...... 807W Wind Power ...... 783W Driving Offences: A14...... 807W Immigration: Children ...... 807W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Legal Aid Scheme ...... 808W AFFAIRS...... 783W Magistrates’ Courts: Nottinghamshire...... 808W Animals: Exports ...... 783W Young Offender Institutions...... 809W Ash Dieback Disease ...... 783W Young Offenders: Literacy ...... 810W Ash Trees: High Peak...... 784W Cider...... 784W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 810W Dogs ...... 784W Economy...... 810W Employment Agencies...... 785W Fuel Poverty...... 811W Flood Control...... 785W Security Situation...... 811W Floods: Insurance ...... 785W TRANSPORT ...... 811W Food: Labelling...... 786W Bus Partnership Forum...... 811W Guide Dogs...... 786W Crossrail Line...... 811W Polar Bears...... 787W Cycleways ...... 812W Cycleways: Leicester...... 812W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 787W Go North East ...... 812W Balearic Islands...... 787W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 813W Falkland Islands...... 787W Northern Rail ...... 813W Railways: Fares ...... 814W HEALTH...... 788W Thameslink Railway Line...... 814W Alcoholic Drinks: Misuse...... 788W Tolls...... 814W Antibiotics ...... 789W Travel: Young People...... 814W Cancer ...... 789W World War II: Anniversaries ...... 815W Care Homes: Fees and Charges...... 790W Circumcision...... 791W TREASURY ...... 815W NHS Property Services ...... 791W Air Passenger Duty ...... 815W Pain...... 792W Child Benefit: Barnsley ...... 815W Self-mutilation ...... 792W Olympic Games 2012: National Lottery...... 815W Sleep Apnoea ...... 794W PAYE...... 816W Streptococcus...... 794W Regional Planning and Development...... 816W Revenue and Customs: Complaints...... 816W Tax Avoidance ...... 816W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 794W Asylum ...... 794W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 817W Firearms: Licensing ...... 796W Universal Credit...... 817W Members: Correspondence ...... 800W Work Programme...... 818W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 5 December 2012

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 5 December 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 849] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

Autumn Statement [Col. 871] Statement—(Mr George Osbourne)

Internships (Advertising and Regulation) [Col. 916] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Hazel Blears)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill [Col. 919] Allocation of time motion—(Damian Green)—agreed to Read a Second time Considered in Committee; not amended, further considered; read the Third time and passed

Petitions [Col. 962]

Clevedon Community Hospital [Col. 963] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Legal Aid and Advice [Col. 969] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Legal Aid and Advice [Col. 972] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Unemployment in Scotland [Col. 253WH] Police and Crime Commissioners [Col. 278WH] Regional Newspapers [Col. 285WH] BBC (Parliamentary Oversight) [Col. 307WH] Work Capability Reassessments [Col. 314WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 55WS]

Petitions [Col. 9P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 755W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 7MC]