Talk,DarkWalter Sabo On Holes “Vision”

k Holes& “Vision”

By Reed Bunzel, Editor-in-Chief Interview photos by Rich Hogan, Hollywood, CA

Check your local talk radio calendar, and you’ll find that AM and FM, are programmed for guys,” he observes. “Yet the this is the Year of the Election.The airwaves are full of discus- financial backbone of daytime TV is talk for women. Adver- sions of Iraq,the economy,tax cuts,terrorism,Osama Bin Laden, tisers are falling all over themselves to find ways to reach young polarized voters and the as-yet-unfound weapons of mass women, and radio has ignored them.” destruction. Rush Limbaugh is front and center, fending off Of course, Sabo’s focus is not strictly on delivering talk Palm Beach County prosecutors while claiming a political programming to women, although that’s what he’s done — smear.Air America has launched to the joy of the liberal audi- with great results — with New Jersey 101.5 FM for the past 14 ence and the critical jabs of the right-wing talk show estab- years. In fact, he firmly believes that talk radio (in all its many lishment.Even Howard Stern has gotten in on the act,claiming forms) is more suited to delivering solid cash flow than vir- political bias in attempts to “banish” him from the commer- tually any contemporary music format.“Talk radio is the best cial airwaves.All in all,talk radio is shaping up for a wild,rock- business,”he explains.“Nothing sells like talk.If you created a ’em, sock-’em ride. talk station for a 25-34 woman,another for a 35-44 man,and But is talk radio becoming a “one-trick pony?” Is it too another for teens, you would have the perfect radio stations. focused on the angry white politicized male who has found an You would have a positive environment for an advertiser’s mes- ally in Sean Hannity or Michael Savage? More to the point, is sage, and be demographically perfect for what many buyers talk radio serving the needs of the American woman who — want for their client.” while deeply interested in politics and the election — is not President of Sabo Media since 1984,Sabo currently is con- necessarily glued to AM talk day in and day out? centrating on what he considers “the emerging profit machine” Walter Sabo, president of Sabo Media and consultant to of FM Talk. He has been a pioneer in developing this format Sirius Satellite Radio,thinks it is not.“It is stunning that there and claims he was the first to program talk successfully on are 1,200 talk stations in America; and 99 percent of them, the FM band for a younger audience.

Prior to starting his own company,Sabo The greatest misperceptions are that was vice president/general manager of ABC it’s expensive to run and that it reaches Radio Networks, where he and his team con- only people who are predominantly over verted the facilities from analog to digital and 55.There are a number of dramatic exam- started numerous profitable, long-form pro- ples of these fallacies. In 1979, when we grams. Before that, he was executive VP in put Dr. Ruth on a contemporary radio sta- charge of the NBC-owned FM stations, with tion in New York, she was a professor at properties in New York City, San Francisco, City College.We put her on Sunday nights Chicago and Washington DC. Early in his to talk about sex — her first media job, for career, he worked as promotion director of $20 a show. A year later, she was repre- WNBC-AM and WXLO-FM,both in New York, sented by William Morris, she was getting and as director of programming and affili- $60,000 for the same show, and she was ate relations for the ABC FM Radio Network. saying, “Valter, I vant a Seville.” She got her A graduate of Syracuse University,Sabo Seville. To this day, I don’t think anybody is a board member emeritus of Command has pulled the shares of 18- to 34-year- Audio, a member of the advisory board of olds that she did. She was doing 30 shares the Museum of Television & Radio, and a of 18-34 adults on Sunday nights. member of the National Arts Club. Radio Ink recently caught up with him in New York, And you didn’t crawl into a hole to do it. where he is consulting Sirius Satellite Radio’s No.The fact is, by using everything you 100 channels of music and talk programming. know about successful music programming and applying it to talk, you can reach any tar- You’ve programmed radio on both the local and get demo you choose.The first talk stations network levels, and you can be critical of many pro- in America — WGN, WOR, WIOD — fol- gram directors and other consultants. What do you lowed a certain pattern.They have a very spe- know that they don’t? cific format — news at the top of the hour, The way I program is opposite of the traffic,“the largest newsroom in the city” — way most people program. Most people look and they attract a very specific audience.The for a hole.Why would you do that? Holes are audience that finds this presentation attrac- small and dark, and I don’t want to go in one. tive is primarily over 55. But there’s no law Why would I define my success by what other that says that’s how you have to do talk. people are already doing? It’s not sane. Instead, I look where the largest audience is, and where Are radio programmers and managers afraid to risk the most ad dollars are placed, and assume something new? we can do better than whoever is already there. People in every industry in every walk of The demographic epicenter of the state of life are gun-shy about trying new things. It is New Jersey is a 38-year-old woman. So we how the species survived. Profitable companies decided to talk to that 38-year-old woman all understand that most people are risk-averse so day,every day.But it had to sound like a music they give them the tools to be brave. Smart CEOs station that she would listen to — it had to give managers the resources to invest capital on have a rhythm and production values and had new ideas, in the future of the company.Proc- to sound like something she’s familiar with. ter & Gamble, 3M, Apple, NBC, ABC and CBS We also needed to do it 24 hours a day, Television have laboratories where new ideas because listeners listen to stations, not shows. are developed. New ideas are researched, and So we created New Jersey 101.5. new ideas are expected.The ability to test a new idea gives executives the ability to be brave — What’s the secret of that station’s ongoing success? but radio has no lab, no development budget, New Jersey 101.5 today is the most-lis- no system to test big, new ideas. tened-to FM talk station in America. It has more than 900,000 cume, and it will gross over $20 Is radio fixated on “who-else-is-doing-it”? million this year. It made money its first year. Sure. Copying and repeating the past It’s #1 in Monmouth Ocean,which is an embed- can maintain a profit, but the dollars are ded New York market; and it’s #2 in Middlesex- chump change compared with the profit Union, which is 15 miles south of the Empire power of a new format, a new star host or State Building. It has a 1 share in New York and a daring, untried promotion and marketing in Philadelphia.This is the most important thing campaign. In show business, maintaining we did there: If you look at the hour-by-hour the status quo in order to “make the num- ratings, nothing happens, regardless of chang- bers” is by far the greatest risk a manager ing show hosts, because it has the same relation- can take. Still, even the bravest would have ship with the audience as a music station. more courage and more success if their com- panies gave them budgets for testing.A devel- What’s the greatest misperception about talk radio, opment budget formalizes the acceptance and how would you correct it? and expectation of new ideas. » 18

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YORK NEW , BUSACCA Y LARR BY Walter Sabo and Dorothy Rose PHOTO Sabo’s Softer Side What leisure activities do Denise Oliver for honesty; talk radio can sound like rock you enjoy? Photography and Ed Seisdedos for sheer and roll. playing with my 17-month- pushiness; Karen Kay for What did you want to be old daughter, Dorothy Rose. loyalty. And of course Mom when you grew up? A DJ and Dad for my confidence; What books do you recom- What is your favorite radio mend? For marketing: The and my wife, Katie, because she’s my sweetheart. format? All forms of Top 40, Fall of Advertising and The including Talk Rise of PR, by Al Ries. For If you had 30 minutes to common sense: How To Sell talk with one person, who What’s your #1 “guilty plea- Anything to Anybody by Joe would that be? The person sure” website? Pretty much Girard. For keeping in touch who designed the pyramids anything that shows up on a with popular taste: Salesman in Egypt Jennifer Love Hewitt search. of the Century by Ron Popeil. If you could go back in What has been your most And for learning how to think: time, where/when would unattainable goal? A 32- The Autobiography of Alice B. you go? 1966. My dad came inch waist Toklas by Gertrude Stein home with a newspaper ad Of what achievement are What book is on your night- placed by the owner of you most proud? For real: stand right now? The Third WDBO-AM & FM and Channel A happy family and home Rose, a biography of Gertrude 6 television in Orlando. The life. For sport: Helping invent Stein by John Brinnin guy was retiring and wanted the Adult Contemporary for- Who are your mentors or to sell them for $300,000. I mat and putting it on first in role models? Fred told Dad, “No, don’t buy New York, Chicago and San Silverman for programmatic them, I want to make it on Francisco — no one thought showmanship; Ed my own.” A few years ago, it would work. That’s tied McLaughlin on thinking big; Channel 6 sold for with putting on New Jersey Dan Daniel and Bruce $250,000,000. 101.5, the first full-time Morrow on how to behave; To whom did you listen on Young Talk FM. Anytime I Scott Greenstein, my partner the radio when you were put something on the air in consulting Sirius radio, on growing up? Bruce Morrow, first, it was a major achieve- how to promote. Also, Bob Dan Daniel, Brad Crandall, ment in radio and worth McCallan for bravery; Charlie Jean Shepard, Dan Ingram, striving for every single day. Banta for integrity; Walter George Gilbert, and Big Copying is for people who Anderson on how to manage; Wilson, who taught me that want weak results.

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What’s your perception of today’s radio programming? every year; and the law of supply and demand penetration of the American public.To this I actually think radio programming is a says that when supply goes up, price goes day,cable is barely squeaking by at 65 per- miracle, and the people who program radio down.Then to make sure, we add more spots. cent after 35 years.We’re an enormous suc- stations are geniuses.The more time I spend Remember: in radio, the seller doesn’t cess story, and it’s very important that we with television executives and executives in determine the price — it’s the buyer. Actu- claim that success, price it accordingly and other media, the more sure I am of that. Radio ally, the buyer determines the price in any profit from it significantly. programming is always progressively better, transaction. And as long as there’s no pres- and that is proven by the fact that every month, sure on the inventory,the value and price will So the “critical-mass” benefits promised through con- every year, somebody announces something remain suppressed.The result is that, in 1970, solidation aren’t enough to move the revenue needle? that will kill radio. Sound movies, television, about 8 percent of all media dollars went to We have the clout to attract media dol- 8-track tapes, records, cassettes, CDs,Walkmen, radio. In 1980, it was 8 percent; in 1990, it lars from other media, and that should be Internet radio — all of it was going to kill radio. was 8 percent; and today, it’s 8 percent. the mission of all consolidated companies. No one at any time was forced to listen to AM It’s fool’s gold to go after the radio bucks and FM radio.Therefore, something extraor- Can that slice ever increase to 10 percent or more? across the street. The real money is at the dinarily appealing must be coming from the It won’t be 10 percent until one of three newspaper and the television station — go speaker for people to be buying radios for the things happens: 1) There’s pressure put on after that.That’s what consolidation can do. shower,for their heads when they exercise, for the inventory,which means it’s cut back dra- That said, all our organizational mod- the back seat of their car. No other medium matically; 2) the rate is increased dramati- els came from radio in the 1920s.While it has enjoyed the proliferation of radio. cally, and we hold it; or 3) we could give might have been a terrific structure, all we’ve people something new to buy. Radio peo- done with consolidation so far is jerry-rig So why do we still receive only 8 percent of the ple are always talking about how we need a structure created 80 years ago. One of these advertising pie? to get new business.Well,guess what: Buy- companies should take a cluster in an iso- Our failure as a medium is that we are ers know the radio medium and its plusses lated market and turn it into a Saturn plant. grossly under-priced.There is nothing wrong and minuses surprisingly well.They know When General Motors wanted to build a with radio salespeople — they’re some of that certain formats don’t move product off new car, they started the Saturn plant with the hardest-working people in the world, the shelf, no matter how big the audience. different union deals, different distribution because they’re pulling the most dollars with So until we give them something new to deals and different types of dealers.They did the fewest tools. Just try to ask for a new buy, it’s difficult to get new business. it from scratch to meet Japanese competi- sales kit or an animated presentation, a tool tion. Someone should create a lab, where to go up against a big newspaper or maga- Do radio people have a “third-world” mentality we can find out if there is a better way to zine on a buy.They work for very hard for when it comes to radio’s position against other sell radio, to program it, research it and man- all the money they bring in, but the fact is media in the marketplace? age it under a consolidated cluster. that the medium is grossly under-priced. Yes, and they need to get over it. The fact is, we have always been the gleaming Has radio taken full advantage of the programming How should radio be priced? castle on the top of the media kingdom, and opportunities afforded by consolidation? In 1970, there were about 3,000 radio it is time that we claim it and cover the roof Consolidation offers radio an enormous stations in the U.S.Multiply that by 18 min- in gold. Radio is the most successful medium opportunity to develop new talent, but no utes an hour — you can do the math.Today, in the history of mankind, and we don’t take one is taking advantage of it. Each TV net- there are 10,000 radio stations, averaging enough credit for it. The first page of any work has a development budget, with which 15 minutes of commercials an hour. Our presentation in radio should be the same they develop new talent. A radio program inventory — just the number of spots in the first page that other media use, and we don’t: director should be able to walk into a com- marketplace — has increased dramatically our penetration. We have 98 percent edy club, see a real talent and say,“I bet » 20 Fresh ideas. Fresh Approach. Radio Reinvented.

July 28 & 29

Nov 10 & 11

RADIO INK REGIONAL CONFERENCES UNCONVENTIONAL THINKING ABOUT CONVENTIONS

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he’d be great on the radio. I don’t know what Howard Stern, Paul Harvey, Rush Limbaugh, including talk. All I’ve ever done is apply I’m going to do with him this minute, but I Dr.Laura, Bob and Tom — is that you know how what I know that works. think one day our morning show could really they feel about everything. Program directors use that.”That PD should hire that talent, should hire DJs who are smart and have a little How will satellite radio stack up against terrestrial develop him, work with him — not simply extra talent, even though they may be a handful radio over the next few years? put him on at 3:00 in the morning on Thanks- to manage.Trust that sometimes the DJ is right. Satellite radio will be very successful, giving weekend and later say,“Gee, it didn’t When that DJ shows unique personality, you and so will AM and FM. It goes back to the work.”That’s where radio companies need to have the potential for a star — and that’s always genius of radio programmers, and it will have invest their money — program research and the best thing you can have for your business. as much impact or as little as programmers development.We’re the only mass-marketed are responsive to another medium. Every new product, from toilet paper to lotion to TV,that What is the biggest mistake a programmer can make? audio medium — 8-tracks, CDs, cassettes — doesn’t have a lab.We need one. The biggest mistake, in any format, is to has been announced as troublesome for radio. pick and choose. If you do, you lose the con- Nothing has had any impact, not because of How many talk stations can a market handle? sistency of formatics. In the 1980s, the hottest the medium itself, but because of how pro- A cluster manager once asked my asso- music show was Casey Kasem’s American Top grammers have effectively and successfully ciate Howard Valentine: “Which one of my 40. Logic would suggest that the show reacted to it.That’s always the key.As long as FM stations should I turn to talk?” His answer belonged on Fridays at 3:00.That was the best- they react to yet another medium as another was the right one: “All of them.”Talk radio produced Top 40 show in the world. It was a opportunity for listeners to be entertained, is the best business, because nothing sells great show, it was on the money, and he was everybody will make a lot of money. like talk. If you created a talk station for a a huge star.Why didn’t anyone put it on Fri- 25-34 woman, another for a 35-44 man, days at 3:00? Why did they put on the $25,000- You’re creating a network that targets a female and another for teens, you would have the a-year DJ? Because they didn’t want to break audience, largely ignored by contemporary talk perfect radio stations.You would have a pos- the format.We know the tensile strength that radio. What do you know that no one else does? itive environment for an advertiser’s mes- a format provides.The format consistency in It is stunning that there are 1,200 talk sage, and be demographically perfect for music radio gives you a business in a consis- stations in America; and 99 percent, both AM what many buyers want for their client. tent, predictive, solid, profitable manner. It’s and FM, are programmed for guys.Yet the If I had a cluster of four FM radio sta- the same thing with talk.A lot of AM talk sta- financial backbone of daytime TV is talk for tions, I’d turn them all talk, and I’d target tions cherry-pick shows, but they’ll have one women.These shows are insanely successful. each of them for a different demographic or two huge shows and nothing else. If they The new Ellen Degeneres show is going to cell. Imagine what a nighttime station would were all consistently approaching the problem gross $60 million this year. Advertisers are sound like, having just teens on it.The rea- the same way and talking to the same target desperate to put money in a girl-positive envi- son those kids call the request lines isn’t to all day,they would have much better program- ronment.That’s why Woman’s Day magazine, hear the song; it’s to hear themselves. It’s ming.That’s the key strength of Air America — which has a circulation of about 1.5 million, to feel a part of a community.Imagine if you it’s a consistent format, just like a Top 40 or a grosses $232 million a year; while WINS with didn’t play the songs — it would be thrilling. well-programmed AC or Country. a circulation of 2.5 million grosses about $50 Radio was the first chat room; OK, let’s claim million.Advertisers are falling all over them- it. Women 25-34 love The View, they love What’s your take on Air America — do they have selves to find ways to reach young women, Rikki Lake, they love Oprah. Hello! the formatics to succeed? and radio has ignored them. The real story there — and it’s not to dis- What can talk programmers learn from music credit them at all — is an important lesson Radio already draws a huge female audience. programmers, or vice versa? for radio: the power of a good public relations Yes, radio delivers women, but not in All the great talk programmers I know firm. Whoever is doing the PR for that net- the way those advertisers want. They don’t came out of Top 40.They have a Top 40 back- work should win all the awards, because it’s want to be the first spot at the end of 20 in ground and a Top 40 sensibility.The smart not the first liberal network. Sirius Radio has a row. They want to be part of a positive, ones apply what they know about Top 40 to had one for two years; so has XM.The fact is, entertaining show.As a medium, we’ve ren- talk.The basics of modern format radio, when modern talk radio became viable because of dered an entire gender to sidekick status.The applied to talk, make any talk station more Barry Grey, Brad Crandall, Lee Leonard, and opportunity, because there’s so much money effective, more efficient, and more profitable. Barry Farber in New York; Jerry Williams in there, is to talk to women 24/7 on FM. Talk programmers should pay attention to Boston; Larry King, Neil Rogers, and Sally Jesse modern formatics and apply them. Raphael at WIOD Miami; Michael Jackson in Theoretically, you could have a talk station for every L.A., and Ronn Owen in San Francisco. No segment of the female population. How critical is the program host or DJ ? one listened to them because they were lib- In every single city in America, the daily I can’t begin to emphasize the power erals — they listened because those people newspaper grosses more than all radio com- of personality.There’s no greater clout than were great on the radio. No one listens to Rush bined, and the reason for this is women’s retail. a star. I listened to a Tampa station this week because he’s a conservative — they listen Two-thirds of local ad dollars in newspapers — every word those jocks said was written, because he’s great on the radio. If stations can is women’s retail.The other third is primar- liner-card drivel. I was thinking, “Does the get someone who is great on the radio, then ily automotive and male-oriented. Radio is jock have an opinion? Does he have a life?” their odds are very good. terrific at offering a male-oriented positive Share your life. Share the real stuff.The way environment — sports, news, traditional AM someone becomes a star on the radio is by You consult 100 channels at Sirius. Do you consider talk, Hot Talk for guys on FM — but we have giving opinions.That’s how we get to know yourself a talk or a music programmer? failed with women.The only way you’re going them.We can’t see their clothes or hair. The I always think of myself as a music to get the money sitting there is to put on a common trait of every star on the radio — programmer. I like all forms of Top 40, product that appeals to them.

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