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Mikhail Avrutin. Full unedited interview, 2007

ID SF002.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4qn5zd6t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

TABLE OF CONTENTS ITEM TRANSCRIPT

ENGLISH TRANSLATION 2 CITATION & RIGHTS 11

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Mikhail Avrutin. Full unedited interview, 2007

ID SF002.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4qn5zd6t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

TRANSCRIPT ENGLISH TRANSLATION - Today is December 6, 2007. We are in Santa Paula, California, visiting a veteran of the Great Patriotic War. Please, introduce yourself, tell us about your childhood, your family, how the war began for you, what you experienced during the war and after. Please.

My name is Avrutin, Mikhail Semyonovich. I was born on April 10, 1927, in a large, as they say, Jewish family. I was the fifth child. I had four older brothers. All of them participated in the war. The last, sixth, child was my sister, she was 2 years younger than me, born in ’29. I was born at the Almaznaya station, previously Voroshilovgradskaya now Luganskaya oblast in Ukraine. All of my brothers, as I mentioned, my eldest brother went missing in action in ’41. The second brother, Zakhar, went through the entire war and died a natural death. The third brother, born in ’20, was serving in the army in 1940. The war found him in Estonia in ’41; he was captured, fled, wandered around Ukraine, and in ’43 he crossed the frontline. He was declared an enemy of the people and was given a 10-year sentence in the GULag. My brother Vladimir, born in ’24, my beloved brother, was called up to the army in ’42. He graduated from the Semipalatinsk Infantry School and was sent to the front. He was a reconnaissance platoon commander. In ’42, there was an urgent order from the division commander for a tongue, a German prisoner. There were two unsuccessful attempts; then he himself led a group of two, they captured a German and he was killed along with the group in no man’s land. My mother died in ’38. In ’42, we were evacuated to the Eastern- Kazakhstan oblast in Kazakhstan. My father died there in ’42. And I was left alone with my younger sister. In ’44 we returned to the Donbas [area]. The military enlistment office issued us a summons, as everyone needed to participate in the war. In January of 1945 I was hurrying, as they say, to get to the front. I was in a reserve rifle regiment, in a march company. I was sent to the front, but because I was educated – I studied in Kazakhstan and finished 9 classes – I was sent to the Kharkov Infantry School, which I graduated after the war and served in the army for 34 years.

I finished my service in 1980 with the rank of lieutenant colonel of justice, I was a military lawyer. I graduated from the Moscow Law Institute in absentia. That’s what I can tell you. I was in Yenakievo [Yenakiyeve] when the war began, in the Donetsk oblast, previously the Stalino oblast. Yenakievo was formerly known as Ordzhonikidze. We moved there after my mother’s death. My father went there because two of his sisters lived there. That’s what I can tell you. Well, my path involved serving in seven military districts: in the Far East, nine years in the Far Eastern Military District in the Kuriles, Kamchatka, and Sakhalin Island. That’s nine years on Sakhalin and the Kuriles. And then 13 years in the Transcaucasian Military District. I ended my service in the Odessa Military District as a military lawyer. That’s what I can say.

- When you moved to Kazakhstan, after the death of your father, you were left alone with your sister?

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Mikhail Avrutin. Full unedited interview, 2007

ID SF002.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4qn5zd6t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

Yes.

- This was already in Kazakhstan?

Yes.

- And when you entered school, what kind of school was it?

The Kharkov Infantry School in the Kharkov Military District. It was disbanded in ’46 together with the school, and I was transferred to the Kiev Infantry School in the Kiev Military District, which I finished with the first postwar graduating class. In general, I finished school three times: a military graduation in ’45, then the school was transformed into a 6-month school. The war ended, the school became a one-year, then a two-year, and in ’46 a three-year school, when we moved to Kiev [Kyiv]. In Kiev, this three-year course was created and then there was the first group of postwar graduating cadets, lieutenants. That was me, I graduated in ’47.

- But you entered the school in ’44, correct?

Yes.

- Whom did this school prepare?

Lieutenants, in 6-month courses. The same type of school my brother graduated from, Semipalatinsk.

- And you graduated in ’45?

In ’45, then, in connection with the end of the war, I was transferred to a 2-year [school], which I finished in ’46. We were given the rank of junior lieutenants. But then 100 people out of 2,000 were selected for two schools, in Kharkov [Kharkiv] and Kiev, and a 3-year course was created for the first postwar graduating class. I finished school three times, as it turned out. I was already awarded the rank of lieutenant. Later I met colleagues who had graduated but only received the rank of junior lieutenant, while we were already lieutenants when we graduated.

- Tell me, you experienced training both during the war and after.

Yes.

- Did the methods used to teach differ during the war and immediately after?

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Mikhail Avrutin. Full unedited interview, 2007

ID SF002.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4qn5zd6t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

Of course. After all, during the war we quick marched for 10, 15, or 25 kilometers either every day or every other day. In full gear, with weapons, submachine guns, machine guns, and mortars. Well, with mortars, someone carried the barrel, it was made up of three parts. By the way, I was in a mortar unit. Then, there were 10-12 hours of classes during the war. After the war, of course, we graduated in ’47, we were privileged: we were in the senior course, everyone was a participant of the war, of course, I was the youngest in this platoon. There was a 16-person detachment, a mortar detachment. These were the most educated. [Those who finished] 9 classes were rare. Some finished 7 classes, but no more…

- For the postwar education, who taught you, you were most likely taught by someone already taking into account the war experience.

Yes, of course.

- That is, your instructors were probably frontline soldiers who…?

Yes, they were all frontline soldiers who participated in the war, of course. In terms of experience, everything was taught based on the experience of the Patriotic War. By the way, BOP, the so-called infantry combat regulations, were adopted in ’46 with the epigraph: teaching the necessities of war. I graduated from the school and commanded a mortar platoon. By the way, I was also the youngest in the platoon even though I was the commander. Under my command were participants of the war who were only discharged in ’49 and ’50, when there was a mass discharge, they were my peers but not of the same age, but older, born in ’26, they had to serve for seven years. They were called up in ’43 and ’44 and they were discharged in 1950. That’s how it was. When I graduated from the law institute, I was transferred to military legal work. I spent the last 15 years working as a lawyer.

- How were you dressed and fed in the school? There were probably completely different conditions during the first years of the war when those like you were called up to the school. Did you somehow have…?

Well, in school, no matter how much they fed us we were always hungry. It’s hard to say, you need to live through this, as they say. We were always undernourishment. Only in ’47, at the end of ’46, in ‘47, we more or less forgot what it meant [to be always hungry].

- When did you find yourself in the march company that you mentioned?

In January of ’45.

- What happened there?

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Mikhail Avrutin. Full unedited interview, 2007

ID SF002.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4qn5zd6t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

Well, we were heading to the front. That’s all.

- These were reserves…?

Yes, they were reserves; I don’t remember any more, we need to take a look, a reserve rifle regiment. It was approximately 3,500 young soldiers being trained for the front, well, the rest I already mentioned. Every day there were 12 to 14 hours of drills. Not drills, we say drills, it was, as they say, “tough in training, easy in battle.” And directly from the march company I was sent to the school. Not only I, they selected those who were educated. Those who passed more than seven classes – this was from before the war, an incomplete secondary education – seven classes while I already finished nine. After this incident in the company, there were several of us in the company with this level of education. All of us were directed [to the school]. I did not want to go. KGB organs called on us, now we understand, and if you did not go to the school then you’d be considered an enemy of the people.

- That is, being in a march company, you were in principle being trained and prepared to join the fighting [at the front]. Where were you located? Was this a location for reserve troops or…

Well, initially we were on a train and then, I do not recall what these areas were called because we moved regularly. We bivouacked, as they say.

- Naturally, you would have entered the fighting but the war ended and you were returned to continue your studies? Or were you returned before…?

No, I was taken directly from the march company to the school.

- This was like a second stage. But the war had already ended at this point?

No, it was still during the war, 3, 4, 5 months, it was in January, so it was four months before the war ended. Well, in ’41, as I already said, where we lived, in this town of Yenakievo. By the way, I showed it, I have a personal diary which I kept as a boy. It is frayed, as you can see. It is over 50 years old.

- Yes, I saw. When you entered the school, with whom did your sister stay? She was left on her own in Kazakhstan?

Before [entering] the school, before being drafted into the army, I was never called up, I volunteered. By the way, I previously wanted to get myself – these are details – but I was removed from the train.

- Tell us about this.

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Mikhail Avrutin. Full unedited interview, 2007

ID SF002.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4qn5zd6t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

In ’44, approximately in October-November, I wanted by any means to get to the front. That’s all. The soldiers sheltered me in the [train] wagon, but apparently someone reported on me and I was taken off the train and returned home. As for my sister, I arranged for her to go to a vocational school with a dormitory. That’s all – the entire family was separated.

- And finally, the third time, you mentioned, you were called up to study at the school, when it became a 3- year course, when did you finish?

I graduated in September of ’47.

- And you were sent…?

As I graduated from the school with good and excellent marks, I was left in Kiev. As I did not have any poor grades, all those who graduated with good marks were left in the Kiev Military District. The rest were sent to other places, to other military districts. We were sent to Belaya Tserkov [Bila Tserkva], outside Kiev. This was 100 kilometers, more like 99, because they took into account the distance when paying [salaries]; only those serving more than 100 kilometers were paid. It was only 99 kilometers to Belaya Tserkov, so we were not paid anything. That’s how it was.

- How did you meet with your brothers, who survived, after the war, how did it all happen, tell us about that?

How did it happen? After the war I only found out through correspondence that my brother had returned. This was the second brother, Zakhar. He was wounded during the liberation of Odessa on April 10, 1944. He wrote about this. And he was discharged from the army during the first round of demobilizations in 1945. Well, he was alive and he arranged for our little sister to stay with him. The other brothers, as I previously mentioned, one died in ’42, the eldest went missing in ’41, and one found himself in the GULag for 10 years.

- What was the name of the one that went into the GULag?

Semyon.

- Can you tell us about this in more detail, about what happened?

As he himself told me. Yes, by the way, he was serving in Estonia in 1940. He was there when the war began in ’41, and he was captured. He fled from captivity and wondered around Ukraine, he could not…all attempts to cross the frontline were unsuccessful. In 1943, when the [Red Army] offensive was taking place

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Mikhail Avrutin. Full unedited interview, 2007

ID SF002.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4qn5zd6t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN in Ukraine, he met some others and they all crossed the frontline. They found themselves in a [filtration camp]. And why did he get ten years for nothing? He was accused of being a traitor to the Motherland, that he cooperated with the Germans. By the way, the investigator was also a Jew. And he said, how did you wander around for two years, whom did you work for? He said, I was wandering, hiding. They did not believe any of it. Well, as they say, they fought. My brother was very high-strung, as they say, he was hot- headed. In short, he hit the investigator in the ear. And that was it. It all ended with him getting 10 years without the right to correspond. And he served the full 10 years. That was my older brother, Zakhar. He went to Kazakhstan and I took him to stay with me. That was his fate.

- That means, for 10 years you did not have any…?

We knew nothing about him. He did not have a right to correspond.

- And when he was released, did he somehow make it known [that he was alive]?

Yes, he gave someone, either an aunt, brother, my father’s younger sister, he told someone. And my brother went but I had no idea. I was in the Far East at the time.

- How did the rest of his life unfold?

How to say, he was very talented. Suffice it to say, he was a graduate of the all-Ukrainian amateur art contest, even a laureate. He wrote poetry, sang, danced, he was great. But what I saw, if I did not know him, I would not have recognized him. These were living relics.

- That is, he was physically changed, but internally?

Internally as well. It is a nightmare what someone can go through in such conditions. Well, he died; I was at his funeral. He died in ’86, as they say, in his own time, thank God.

- Did you get married after the war?

Yes.

- When, how many children do you have?

I have a daughter, she’s in Israel now. That’s it. My first wife died in ’85. That’s all.

- Do you have grandchildren?

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Mikhail Avrutin. Full unedited interview, 2007

ID SF002.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4qn5zd6t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

Even a great-grandson…we were in Israel four years ago. My 30-year-old grandson finally married and there is already a great-grandson. This is our fate. I certainly never thought I would live to see my great- grandson. And in general, that I would live to see such years, because the average age of our family was 52. From a once large family there is no one left, I was left alone.

- When did you come to America?

In ’96, 11 years [ago], they flew by like an instant.

- Until what year did you serve after finishing school?

Until 1980.

- What did you do after?

I worked as a senior legal adviser, head of the pharmacy management legal department in Zaporozhye [Zaporizhia] oblast. Why Zaporozhye? I was transferred from the Transcaucasian Military District to Zaporozhye. I asked [for the transfer] myself, because my daughter was studying at the institute in Zaporozhye. Her grandmother lived in Zaporozhye, that is, my mother-in-law. Well, they fulfilled my request. Incidentally, I was with the Minister of Justice, talking about this as if to an ordinary person. And we agreed as they transferred me to Zaporozhye. There I received an apartment, served for another three years, and was dismissed. And for 15 years, no, 16 years I worked as either the head of the legal department or senior legal counsel, it changed all the time. There was the pharmacy management of the regional executive committee, then the firm “Farmatsi.” That was my path.

- Let’s return to the school for a moment. You went to school. There were probably students…

Cadets.

- Cadets. Were there many nationalities, serving [in the school]?

Yes.

- Different nationalities?

Can’t say there were many. There were, well, the nationalities of the Soviet Union, from the republics.

Mikhail Avrutin. Full unedited interview, 2007

ID SF002.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4qn5zd6t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

- Were there any Jews studying with you?

There were. True, some of them were not listed as Jewish, but of course we knew that they were Jews. There was a Moiseevich. A typical Jew. But he was Ukrainian. But mainly, Russians and Ukrainians.

- During your studies, did you ever come across with any manifestations of anti-Semitism, did some offensive teasing or something like that ever happen at the time?

Well, it used to happen most often in ???, in that way, I do not remember it happening in the open. Well, there was some ridicule and so on. But I did not hear of any consequences. In ’49 and ’50 there were terrible things [happening]. On Sakhalin, we were analyzing the [situation] in the following way: approximately 40%, mainly officers and even generals were, as they say, Jewish…

- Jewish nationality.

Yes.

- Yes, so many? This is a large figure – 40%.

Where could they send Jews? They did not send them to Germany and so on. There were troops in Poland and Romania, etc. There was a Central Group [of Forces], a Western, and so on, group of forces in Germany. But they would not send Jews there. Their path was – Kushka, this was the Turkmen Military District, the Turkestan Military District and the Far East: Sakhalin, Kamchatka, Kuriles, Chukotka. An army was located in Chukotka. You can imagine what an army consists of. The smallest army is approximately 10,000 troops. A large army – 100,000-man army, and a division is 10,000 troops. Well, in any case, I worked or served in the headquarters as an organizer. There were many Jews.

- But in the future, when you served, you served for a long time in the Soviet Army, in the future did some of these manifestations of anti-Semitism, did they somehow intensify, become worse? What happened?

It became worse in 1950. Remember the case of the so-called killer doctors? It was a mass phenomenon. My cousin, Tochilkin, with a purely Russian surname, was the head of the KGB in Zaporozhye. But in 1950 he was transferred to the NKVD, colonel of internal troops, the police, to the post of chief of the correctional labor department, labor camps. Since he was one of the best, as they say, one of the best workers. But they would not keep him in the KGB, that’s it, after 1950 there was not a single Jew left [in their ranks]. All of them were either dismissed or transferred gradually to the police, then from the police as well. You could not get away. Up through 1953. After Stalin’s death, everything returned to normal. But, anyway, Jews were rarely assigned responsible posts. That’s what I can say.

Mikhail Avrutin. Full unedited interview, 2007

ID SF002.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4qn5zd6t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

- Understood. Well, thank you very much for your story.

You’re welcome.

- That’s all.

Mikhail Avrutin. Full unedited interview, 2007

ID SF002.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4qn5zd6t

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

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