Tuesday Volume 683 10 November 2020 No. 132

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 10 November 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 711 10 NOVEMBER 2020 712

approach to help all businesses, including those currently House of Commons excluded. So in the light of yesterday’s news, will the Secretary of State agree to work with the Treasury to Tuesday 10 November 2020 review the economic support currently on offer? Alok Sharma: One feature of the pandemic has been The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock that we have indeed reviewed the support and provided further support where it is needed. As I said, we have PRAYERS extended the self-employment income support scheme, which means an extra £7.3 billion of support for the self-employed through November to January. Of course, [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] we all hope that a vaccine comes forward, but the Virtual participation in proceedings commenced support is there, as well as support in terms of grants (Order, 4 June). for businesses that are required to be closed. [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP): The Secretary of State continues to duck the question. He has been told for about seven Oral Answers to Questions months of those excluded from support—the battered, bruised and brushed off. We are talking about the 3 million—the newly self-employed, the directors and BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL the freelancers who have been given nothing. He is the STRATEGY Business Secretary, so is it that the Chancellor has ignored his calls for support or is it just that he simply does not care? The Secretary of State was asked— Alok Sharma: The hon. Gentleman knows me quite Self-employed People: Covid-19 well and I think he will understand, at least in private, that I do very much care, as does every Member of this Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab): What House. He talks about those who are not able to get discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on access to this scheme, and, obviously, one issue relates support for self-employed people during the covid-19 to those who are paid in dividends. As he knows, Her outbreak. [908529] Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has made the point Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): What that it is difficult to distinguish between income earned recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues through an individual’s own company dividends and on Government support for self-employed people during dividends that have been paid from holding shares in other companies. If the hon. Gentleman has suggestions the covid-19 outbreak. [908558] as to how we might overcome this, I would be interested The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial to work with him. Strategy (Alok Sharma): The Government have so far Manufacturing Sector provided £13.2 billion of support to self-employed people through the self-employment income support scheme, Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con): What steps his and that support continues. The UK’s self-employment Department is taking to support the manufacturing scheme is among the most generous internationally. sector. [908530] Margaret Greenwood [V]: According to the Association Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): What of Independent Professionals and the Self-Employed, steps his Department is taking to support the manufacturing the solo self-employed contributed an estimated £305 billion sector. [908541] to the UK economy last year. So why have 1.6 million Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con): What self-employed people been excluded from government steps his Department is taking to support the manufacturing support during the pandemic? What will the Minister sector. [908554] do to address this failure of Government to recognise the huge contribution self-employed people make to the The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial economy and to our communities? Strategy (Alok Sharma): I want to thank those in the manufacturing sector for the brilliant work they are Alok Sharma: As the hon. Lady will know, the self- doing to support the economy and keep it going. Despite employment scheme has been targeted at those who thenationalrestrictions,themanufacturingandconstruction derive the majority of their income from self-employment. sectors can continue to operate and are doing so. Thus I hope she will welcome an extension of that scheme, far, the manufacturing sector has benefited from about which the Chancellor has announced. It will now last £5 billion of furlough grants and £4 billion of government- for a further six months, from November of this year to backed loans. April 2021. Ms Ghani: I thank the Secretary of State for his Wendy Chamberlain: Following yesterday’s news about response. I wish to seek further assurances on behalf of a covid vaccine, for the first time in a while it feels as my three local chambers of commerce—Hailsham, though there may be an end in sight. If it becomes clear Crowborough and Uckfield. What further support can that a return to normality will be possible in the next be provided for small and medium-sized manufacturing few months, surely the only responsible approach is to firms in my constituency, not only during covid, but expand support and adopt a true “whatever it takes” during transition next year? 713 Oral Answers 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 714

Alok Sharma: I know that my hon. Friend works 30 GW to 40 GW, thereby bringing additional jobs to closely with her three local chambers of commerce in the sector. We will set out more plans over the coming Hailsham, Crowborough and Uckfield. On planning weeks. for transition, whatever our future trading relationship with the European Union things will change for businesses Edward Miliband: I thank the Secretary of State for and they do need to prepare. My Department and my that answer, but the rhetoric does not match the reality. fellow Ministers and I have been communicating and Look at what other countries, including France and engaging directly with businesses, and we will continue Germany, are doing, and look at the scale of what we to do so. are doing. He mentions offshore wind; let us take that as an example. As he says, the Government want to see Mrs Latham [V]: Rolls-Royce is a very important 40 GW of offshore wind by 2030, but to ensure that the manufacturer throughout the UK, not least in Derby, jobs in manufacturing the turbines are created here, we where it employs more than 12,000 people. Will my need the ports and supply-chain investment. The amount right hon. Friend assure me that whenever the Government that the Government have pledged—£160 million over help Rolls-Royce, all money spent will directly support 10 years—is woefully inadequate. What is the Secretary the recovery of domestic civil aerospace manufacturing? of State’s estimate of the public investment required to meet his own target that 60% of the content of the Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend is a great champion of offshore wind industry should be British—a target he is workers in her constituency, and she and I have met to missing badly? Will the Government now fund and discuss these issues. She will know that the Government support the scale of investment required? are supporting the aerospace and aviation sectors to the Alok Sharma: We are making funding available to tune of almost £9 billion through loans and grants. Of upgrade ports, as the right hon. Gentleman said. I hope course, we want that support to create a positive business he would acknowledge that, as a result of the Government’s environment and ensure that Rolls-Royce and, indeed, work on contracts-for-difference auctions, we have the other companies in the sector base their work in the biggest offshore wind industry in the world, which has UK, sustaining well-paid local jobs for decades to come. driven down prices significantly and made offshore As my hon. Friend will know, Rolls-Royce proposes to wind viable. We will continue to work to support those consolidate the assembly and testing of its large aero-engines jobs, and we are talking about tens of thousands of from Singapore to Derby. extra jobs in the sector by 2030. Jack Brereton: Many manufacturers, especially those Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab): Vaccine in Stoke-on-Trent, face high energy costs, and there is manufacturing for covid is being led by Ms Kate Bingham little incentive to switch to cleaner electricity because of from the vaccine taskforce. Not only has she disclosed the higher cost. Will my right hon. Friend look at what official sensitive documents to hedge-fund managers in additional support can be offered to energy-intensive the United States, but she has spent £670,000 of taxpayers’ industries so that our manufacturers remain competitive money on private public relations advisers instead of and can invest in improved efficiency? using civil servants and is set to benefit financially from state investments. Ms Bingham should be sacked. If she Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend is a great champion of is not sacked, who will be held to account for this gross manufacturers in his constituency. As he will know, the conflict of interest and misuse of public funds? Will it Government are committed to helping businesses to be the Secretary of State or the Prime Minister? reduce their costs through resource and energy efficiency. Wehave established a package of compensation exemptions Alok Sharma: I would point out that the vaccines from electricity costs worth more than £470 million, taskforce, which sits in my Department and is led by which will of course benefit businesses in energy-intensive Kate Bingham, has done an absolutely brilliant job over sectors such as ceramics, which is a particularly important the past few months.Wehave managed to secure 350 million industry for Stoke-on-Trent. doses across six of the most promising vaccine candidates. The hon. Gentleman will have seen the statement that Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): One obvious came through from Pfizer/BioNTech yesterday; we were way to help our manufacturers is with a green stimulus the first country in the world to secure access to that equal to the scale of the economic emergency that we particular vaccine candidate. The hon. Gentleman talks face. President-elect Biden has pledged $2 trillion for about spending; the senior responsible officer, in line such a stimulus; the French and German Governments with his delegated authority, approved that resourcing have pledged tens of billions of euros; and Britain has in accordance with public sector practices and frameworks. pledged just £5 billion. Will the Secretary of State tell us Young Enterprise: Government Support when this Government are going to show the same scale of ambition—not in 10 years’ time but now—to create Chris Loder (West Dorset) (Con): If he will hold hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country? discussions with the Secretary of State for Education on Government support for Young Enterprise. [R] Alok Sharma: The right hon. Gentleman may have [908531] been reading the Conservative party manifesto, because we have been clear that we have an ambition to create The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, 2 million green jobs by 2030 and have already set out Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway): Young some of the measures, including £2 billion in green Enterprise does excellent work, engaging young people homes grants to support 100,000 green jobs. The Prime and providing valuable education in enterprise and Minister has also announced that we will be boosting financial skills. Ministerial colleagues recently met Young the Government’s target for offshore wind by 2030 from Enterprise to hear about its work and correspondence 715 Oral Answers 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 716 on this and have shared that information with education my officials have had regular engagement with the Ministers. If I may also add, the lessons that I learned Treasury. I recently met the Financial Secretary to the when I did Young Enterprise in the sixth form, which Treasury to discuss ongoing financial support. was not so long ago, were invaluable. Wehave announced additional cash grants and extensions to the job retention scheme and existing loan schemes. Chris Loder: As someone who did not go to university, who benefited greatly from Young Enterprise and who Yvette Cooper: Pubs and high street shops are particularly is from a rural area, I know full well how important the hard hit by losing pre-Christmas takings. The Minister scheme is. How is the Minister helping young people in will know that it is also the hospitality and retail sectors rural areas, such as in my constituency of West Dorset, that are most at risk from accelerating automation, and will she ensure that the development of non-cognitive which will affect jobs. What will he do to work with skills in schools features in our industrial strategy? those sectors on sector-specific plans to prevent the double whammy of covid and automation affecting Amanda Solloway: Skills for adults and young people jobs, so that our pubs and high street shops can be in rural areas, such as West Dorset, are absolutely open? invaluable. Towns and cities are an important part of supporting the future economy, and we are working Paul Scully: The right hon. Lady raises a really important with education colleagues to consider how Government point. As well as having regular meetings with the support on skills will be an integral part of our strategy hospitality and retail sectors about the immediate future, for growth. we also have the Retail Sector Council and the Hospitality Futures Group, an industry-led a group, which we Innovation and New Technologies participate in fully to make sure that we can address such long-term concerns. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): What recent steps his Department has taken to support the growth Covid-19: Business Sectors of innovation and new technologies. [908532] Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): What recent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, assessment he has made of which business sectors have Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway): This been most affected by the covid-19 outbreak. [908534] Government are fully committed to unleashing innovation and supporting priority technologies. For example, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, combined public and private investment in the National Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi): We Quantum Technologies Programme over its 10-year know that many areas of the economy face challenges, lifetime is set to pass the £1 billion mark. We are as we have just heard, especially in sectors that have investing £750 million through Innovate UK to support closed under new national restrictions, such as hospitality. innovative businesses through the pandemic and have That is why we have extended the coronavirus job also launched the future fund. retention scheme to March and provided an unprecedented support package to businesses and to workers. Richard Graham: I welcome the Minister’s response. Does she agree more broadly with me that the UK Bill Esterson: Many working people have been excluded should retain key technology assets where there is a since March. They do not qualify for furlough; they do national interest and that Arm Ltd’s capabilities in not qualify for the self-employed scheme; and their semiconductor and chip design, including processes for businesses do not qualify for the grants. It is no good mobile phones, have national security implications? If the Government giving the mantra about universal she agrees, can she, her Department and the Government credit. It will not wash, because most people who have do more to protect the national interest in the proposed been excluded do not qualify for universal credit. The sale of Arm by SoftBank to Nvidia? Government were right to U-turn over the injustice facing hungry children, so when will they fix the growing Amanda Solloway: Arm is an important part of the injustice faced by millions of excluded people in this UK tech sector and makes a significant contribution to country who just want to put food on the table for their the UK economy. Although acquisitions are primarily a children? commercial matter for the parties concerned, the Government monitor them closely. When a takeover Nadhim Zahawi: The Government have put forward may have a significant impact on the UK, we will not a comprehensive package of support, as we heard from hesitate to investigate further and take action. We will the Secretary of State, for both individuals and businesses. be scrutinising the deal carefully to understand its impact The self-employed income support scheme has also on the UK. been extended. The support package is not only about the welfare system, which has had an additional £9 billion Covid-19 Lockdown: Business Support put into it to help people, but about the bounce back loans, the tax deferrals and the rental support, which Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) are all important parts of it, as well as mortgage holidays (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the and other business support grants through local Chancellor of the Exchequer on providing additional government. support to businesses affected by covid-19 lockdown restrictions in the run up to Christmas. [908533] Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): Today’s unemployment figures are a sobering reminder of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, scale and pace of the economic crisis now upon us. It is Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): The Secretary becoming increasingly clear that, despite the Government’s of State works closely with the Chancellor, and I and initial early action, their slowness and constant indecision 717 Oral Answers 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 718 are making the jobs crisis worse. Will they now get Paul Scully: It is a commercial matter, but businesses ahead of the curve, as France, Germany and Spain have do need flexibility with regard to terms and conditions— done, not only to protect our key industries such as both for them and their employees—to protect jobs. We aerospace and automotive, but to bring forward an expect all employers to treat employees fairly and in the ambitious plan for their green renewal at a scale and spirit of partnership. The very threat of fire and rehire pace to match the crisis? As we are seeing at Rolls-Royce is totally unacceptable, and we hope that all the businesses and elsewhere, once decent jobs go, they are gone for cited will reach a negotiated outcome with their employees. good; and communities across the north and midlands can ill afford to lose them. Mr Virendra Sharma [V]: I hope that the Minister will give a more open and clear response to my question. Nadhim Zahawi: The hon. Lady makes an important Heathrow airport is pushing staff to strike—a measure point about the labour market statistics released this that garnered support in a ballot ending last week. Its morning. The Government are committed to helping behaviour now amounts to bullying. Staff are being the most vulnerable, as was demonstrated with the summoned to meetings before the consultation is finished £2 billion kickstart scheme for young people, who have and without support. Will the Secretary of State say in many ways been heavily impacted by the challenge of that this is wrong, condemn this behaviour and agree covid. She will see from this Government a green industrial that this business has relied on the support of the strategy.As the Secretary of State has already set out—judge community, who are owed something back in these us by what we do—36% of the world’s offshore energy troubled times? is produced by this country, and we will go much further. Dismiss and Re-engage Tactics Paul Scully: I know how important Heathrow and the airlines sector is to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab): What steps which is why we put so much support into that sector. I his Department is taking to reduce the use of dismiss come back to the fact that we expect all employers to and re-engage tactics by employers. [908535] treat employees fairly and respectfully, no matter what job, what position and what community they live in. Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab): What steps his Department is taking to reduce the use of dismiss Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and and re-engage tactics by employers. [908545] Strathspey) (SNP): The hon. Gentleman is a Minister in government. He has repeatedly called this unacceptable. Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): What A number of his colleagues have called out companies steps his Department is taking to reduce the use of such as British Airways that have shamefully used fire dismiss and re-engage tactics by employers. [908550] and rehire tactics. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury called it The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, “a practice that all of us in the House would condemn.”—[Official Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): Employers Report, 13 October 2020; Vol. 682, c. 168.] must have the flexibility to offer different terms and The Prime Minister said that he was looking at what we conditions. However, using threats about firing and can do. People are fed up with this Government’s warm rehiring as a negotiating tactic is unacceptable. The words and no intention of action, so let us hear it today: Government are working with ACAS to convene a does the Minister support the aims of the Bill introduced roundtable of business organisations and employee by my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire representatives to discuss these issues. North (Gavin Newlands), and will he support it? Anna McMorrin: Earlier this year, I joined workers and trade unions across Cardiff North to stand up to Paul Scully: We will address and respond to the Bill businesses behaving badly.People are struggling to grapple when it comes before us. We have to reach the balance with the uncertainties of life under covid, yet some between protecting jobs and allowing employers who businesses are still using fire and rehire tactics to undermine are in difficulty to have the necessary flexibility. We are pay and working conditions to line their own pockets. one of the most flexible employment countries in the Will the Government stop the dithering and delay, developed world, and we want to remain so, but we do outlaw these bad practices and protect workers’ rights? want to make sure that businesses have their responsibilities and use those responsibilities wisely. Paul Scully: I understand the enormous impact of losing a job, or even of a job being threatened. We Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Surely expect all employers to treat employees fairly and the Minister must understand that fire and rehire tactics respectfully, but businesses in real financial difficulty do are not part of a negotiating tactic: they are a gun to the need the flexibility to offer new terms and conditions to head of every worker in the organisation. It has nothing save as many jobs as they can. to do with negotiation: it says, “You will accept lower terms—otherwise we will chuck you out.” British Gas Kim Johnson: Increasingly, rogue bosses such as British has recently become one of a number of large companies Airways, Centrica and ESS are using the covid crisis to threatening their workforces in this way with this medieval cut pay and terms and conditions and are exploiting the tactic. I think the Minister must agree that it is not only legal loophole to fire and rehire loyal staff. With many a terrible way to reward the thousands of energy workers workers now facing an impossible choice between losing who have worked day and night to keep our energy pay or losing their job, will the Minister explain how supply constant and reliable during the covid crisis, but these scandalous tactics can possibly be legal in the first must be seen as a completely unacceptable way to place, and will he legislate to outlaw them—yes or no? conduct industrial negotiations. Will he join me in 719 Oral Answers 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 720 condemning the use of this practice and, specifically, Covid-19: Support for Businesses write to British Gas demanding that it withdraw its threats to its employees? Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to support Paul Scully: In my first answer on this subject, I businesses during the covid-19 outbreak. [908537] talked about the fact that we believe that making threats Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): What steps his about firing and rehiring as a negotiating tactic is Department is taking to support businesses during the totally unacceptable. I hope that the situation with covid-19 outbreak. [908538] Centrica will be satisfactorily resolved both for employers and employees. However, it is important to retain the Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con): flexible labour markets where we remain 11th out of What steps his Department is taking to support businesses 140 countries with regard to the ease of hiring and, during the covid-19 outbreak. [908540] indeed, firing workers to make sure that we can protect important sectors across this country. Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to support businesses during the covid-19 Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab) [V]: British Gas outbreak. [908557] has put a halt on its fire and rehire plans, but only until the beginning of next year, and workers, many of whom The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, are my constituents, are not optimistic. Centrica plc, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi): My British Gas’s parent company, reported profits of Department continues to deliver a wide range of measures £900 million this year. Does the Minister agree that it is to support UK business. We have extended our loan morally indefensible for workers to be expected to accept schemes across the board, which have already delivered a reduction in their pay and conditions when shareholders over £62 billion of finance, until the end of January, still enjoy dividends, and if so, what steps will he take to and the new local authority grants will also offer further ensure that workers are protected from these underhand support to businesses affected by the national restrictions. tactics? Nickie Aiken: I thank the Minister for his reply. During this second lockdown, many of us are likely to Paul Scully: I talked about using threats in terms of find comfort in reading. My constituent David Campbell, negotiation. Employers need to treat employees fairly who runs Everyman’s Library, has written—with the and in a spirit of partnership. I therefore hope that backing of over 20 leading authors, including Salman Centrica will reach a negotiated outcome with employees. Rushdie, Simon Jenkins and Sebastian Faulks—to the Prime Minister asking that books be considered an Retail Sector: Covid-19 essential item for sale during the current restrictions. Does my hon. Friend agree that, to support small businesses during the covid-19 crisis, it would be preferable Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): What recent discussions that local independent shops, which are based in the he has had with representatives from the retail sector on heart of their local communities and often employ local the effect of the covid-19 outbreak on that sector. people, remain open and secure sales, rather than a [908536] global internet brand? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend makes an important Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): I have point. It is a very difficult decision that we have grappled regular discussions on the effect of covid-19 with a with. Independent bookshops are of great importance range of retail reps. Next month, I will co-chair a to local communities, with books playing a vital role in meeting of the Retail Sector Council. There has been people’s mental health and wellbeing. The decision to unprecedented support, including within the £200 billion close non-essential retail is part of a wider package of of Government support for the retail sector, but clearly measures to make it clear that people should stay at we must work closely with it at all times. home and accept this for a limited period of time. Of course, bookshops can offer delivery and click-and-collect Liz Twist: Retail sector employment is a huge part of services, which I am sure that her constituent, David employment in my constituency of Blaydon, from huge Campbell, is probably considering. centres like the Metrocentre to independent retailers Julian Sturdy [V]: The Government’s new support across the whole constituency. With all but essential measures for businesses provide a genuine lifeline. However, shops now closed for a second time, what further practical support to stay closed is not the long-term answer, and support are the Government giving to those businesses many will only remain viable if they can be open as struggling to pay their rent, and their other bills, as a normal for the pre-Christmas season. May I ask what result of the covid crisis? the Minister is doing to urgently lobby Government and the Prime Minister on the necessity of keeping Paul Scully: We have extended the moratorium until businesses going and getting them reopened from the end of the year and will continue to work with 2 December,including in hospitality,which is so important tenants. This week, I had a roundtable with a ministerial to a city like York? colleague in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. We will work with tenants and Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend makes a very powerful landlords to come up with a fair solution for retailers point, and I absolutely agree with him. This is not the across this country to protect our high streets and our long-term answer, and I fully appreciate that retailers retail areas. across England will be desperate to reopen in time for 721 Oral Answers 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 722 the important Christmas trading period. The regulations, Ruth Jones: UK maritime energy is seeing seismic as the Prime Minister said, will expire on 2 December, changes, as is so much of the economy in all parts of the and we will return to the local restrictions thereafter—the nation. Workers skilled in vessels and rigs offshore are tiered system. Of course, Ministers and officials are being moved to new renewable industries, but—as is regularly engaging across Government, including my always the case with this Government—some are being colleagues in BEIS, to ensure the sector can reopen left behind. This Government cannot be allowed to safely on 2 December. make the same mistakes that they made in the 1980s, when they left coal workers and entire communities Dr Spencer: I thank the Minister for his answer: devastated and unsupported. Will the Minister tell the financial support for businesses is such a lifeline at this people of Newport West how the Government plan to time. Speaking to businesses across the spectrum in avoid those mistakes in the new energy transition? Runnymede and Weybridge—from those in the wedding sector to logistics and corporate events—they tell me Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Lady will be aware that the that one of the biggest challenges they face is uncertainty green jobs element of the transition is at the centre of around planning for the next six months to a year. Does the Government’s net-zero strategy, and we fully intend my hon. Friend agree with me that one of the best to have something like 2 million green jobs by 2030, supports for business we can give is a long-term plan for although now we have only 460,000. Green jobs are at how we deal with and get out of the covid pandemic? the centre of the recovery that we are trying to drive.

Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s Sizewell C Nuclear Power Station: question. The current restrictions will expire on 2 December. Government Scrutiny After those restrictions have expired, we intend to return to the tiered system, as I just mentioned on an earlier Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) question. Of course, we have to make sure that businesses (Con): What plans he has to help ensure adequate have that clarity, hence why the Chancellor extended the Government scrutiny of the Sizewell C nuclear power furlough scheme all the way to the end of March for station development consent order application. [908542] businesses. The British Chambers of Commerce made it very clear to me a few days ago in a phone call that that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, was incredibly important help at the right time. Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi): The Planning Inspectorate’s examining authority will robustly Tom Hunt: The Arcade Tavern is one of the most examine the application for the proposed Sizewell C popular pubs in Ipswich. It has insurance against income nuclear generating station. The Secretary of State will loss because of notifiable diseases, but its insurers, New then give careful consideration to the examining authority’s India, is refusing to pay out, blaming the Government report and recommendations, before taking a final decision. for the loss of income. This has left the business fighting this pandemic and for the money that it is entitled to. Dr Poulter [V]: Undoubtedly, Sizewell C can bring Will my hon. Friend assure me that the Government many benefits to Suffolk in terms of increased employment will look unfavourably on insurers that do not honour opportunities, and it is an important part of decarbonising their contracts and that this is not the case of the little and improving our energy security. However, it is not a man being stitched up? I have the letter right here, so I case of Sizewell C being built at any cost, and many am happy to share it with him after this. people in Suffolk have concerns about the failure of EDF properly to engage with the consultation process. Nadhim Zahawi: I will happily look at the letter, and More than 50 outstanding concerns have been raised by it sounds incredibly concerning that any insurer would Suffolk County Council. What reassurances can the act in this way. Pubs, of course, are a valuable part of Minister provide to me and my constituents, particularly many local communities across the country. We are in those in the Wickham Market and Hacheston areas, continual dialogue with the insurance sector regarding that EDF will be held to account, will properly engage its response to this unprecedented situation. I will happily with the consultation, and will implement the changes look at the letter and the details of my hon. Friend’s that are needed to improve road and rail infrastructure? case. Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point and his message has been heard clearly. I reassure Marine Renewable Energy him that proposals for mitigating the potential impact of Sizewell C will be considered during the examination Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): What steps he is of the development consent application, and local people taking to support the development of marine renewable and local bodies, such as the county council, will have energy. [908539] the opportunity to make representations. The Secretary of State will then thoroughly examine and consider the The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth recommendations from the Planning Inspectorate, which (Kwasi Kwarteng): On 6 October, the Prime Minister will be submitted to him following that examination. announced new plans to build back greener, which I give my hon. Friend that guarantee. included boosting the Government’s previous offshore wind target from 30 gigawatts to 40 gigawatts. The hon. Net Zero Emissions Target Lady will also be interested to hear that the Marine Energy Council is looking at funding models for early Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con): What steps his tidal projects, and that is something in which the Department is taking to help achieve the net zero Government are very interested. emissions target by 2050. [908543] 723 Oral Answers 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 724

Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con): What steps Covid-19: Support for Businesses his Department is taking to help achieve the net zero emissions target by 2050. [908553] Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): What discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth Exchequer on increasing support to businesses affected (Kwasi Kwarteng): The hon. Lady will know that the by the covid-19 outbreak. [908544] UK’s net zero target is a world-leading initiative. Indeed, it was striking that this month China, Japan and South Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): What discussions he Korea committed themselves to net-zero carbon targets. has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on increasing support to businesses affected by the covid-19 outbreak. [908571] Felicity Buchan: I am a big proponent of electric vehicles. Will my right hon. Friend consider regulatory Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): What discussions reform to encourage investment in the electric vehicle he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on infrastructure, such as vehicle-to-grid charging? increasing support to businesses affected by the covid-19 outbreak. [908572] Kwasi Kwarteng: My hon. Friend will know that we are taking considerable action to encourage consumers The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth to buy electric vehicles, and we are also investing in the (Kwasi Kwarteng): The Department has engaged regularly necessary infrastructure.So far we have invested £30 million with the Chancellor and other partners across the devolved to support vehicle-to-grid technology,and we will regulate Governments, including in Scotland, since the beginning next year to ensure that consumers benefit from smart- of the covid-19 outbreak to make sure that businesses charging their electric vehicles. have the right information, guidance and support that they need.

Alexander Stafford: Recent commentary has highlighted Dr Whitford [V]: A pub owner in my constituency has the role of the North sea as a strategic asset for net zero. seen his business severely impacted by covid-19 restrictions It could deliver one third of our energy needs via but has been unable to access a bounce back loan, as the offshore wind, which could increase the utilisation of bank where he has his business account is not part of carbon capture and storage and green hydrogen. What the scheme and none of the accredited lenders are is the role of a carbon pricing mechanism in delivering accepting new business accounts. Will the Secretary of this? State widen the number of banks eligible to provide these loans or ensure that the big lenders accept additional Kwasi Kwarteng: My hon. Friend, as he often does, business customers, so that small businesses can access raises a pertinent question relating to our energy strategy. the support they need to get through this crisis? Obviously, carbon pricing is at the centre of any move to try to decarbonise our energy mix. We have a track Kwasi Kwarteng: Obviously, I am not familiar with record on this, and we have also committed to 40 GW of the exact details that the hon. Lady refers to. What I can offshore wind by 2030, which, through the auction point out is that in her constituency of Central Ayrshire, process, is critical to delivering our net zero ambitions. banks have provided something like £37 million of business loans, but I would be very interested to hear the specifics of that case and to see what we can do to Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): meet those concerns. If we are to sustain public support for the goal of net zero, it is essential that we maximise the benefits of the Peter Grant [V]: In response to a question from my green transition here at home, but there are far too hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch many examples where the promise of that green transition and Strathspey (Drew Hendry), the Secretary of State risks not being realised. One such case is the plight of claimed that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs does the BiFab engineering yards in Fife and Lewis, which not have the information necessary to distinguish between represents a clear failure to utilise industrial strategy to an active, working owner-director of a small business, ensure that British firms win work and sustain decent and an absentee shareholder of a big business who jobs from the billions of pounds being invested in contributes no part to the running of the business. offshore wind installations just a few miles off the HMRC may not have all that information, but Companies Scottish coast. Citing state aid rules, the SNP Scottish House definitely does and most of it is on public record, Government appear content to sit back and let the steel so can the Minister tell us what discussions his Department jackets in question be manufactured overseas. Can the has had with Companies House in the last seven months Minister give a commitment today that the UK with a view to using that information to identify the Government will step in and safeguard the future of million or so small businesses that have been deliberately mounting fabrication in the UK and these vital 450 Scottish excluded from Government support up until now? jobs? Kwasi Kwarteng: We are in constant contact with Kwasi Kwarteng: The hon. Gentleman will know that Companies House and other sources of information we are absolutely committed to maintaining a UK relating to businesses. With regard to the specifics, I am supply chain for the extra deployment of offshore wind not as familiar with those charges as the hon. Gentleman, that I alluded to earlier. With regard to this specific but again I point out that something like £30 million of issue, we are in conversations with counterparts in loan money—of credit—has been supplied to companies Scotland and also speaking to people in the company. in his constituency. 725 Oral Answers 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 726

Owen Thompson: While I welcome the extension of Alok Sharma: As the hon. Gentleman will know, I the furlough, albeit belatedly, I would suggest the next followed all the rules, as we always do in my Department. step to repair mistakes made in handling the pandemic I want to thank businesses, trade unions and the business for businesses is to look at the failures within the representative organisations we worked with earlier this business interruption loan schemes, which I outlined in year to put together the guidelines to keep business a debate in this Chamber last week. Many companies areas covid secure. are not taking on CBILs or BBLS loans, because having more debt around their necks is the last thing they need [908592] Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): just now. Has the Minister carried out any analysis of I am extremely proud to see that an Airbus apprentice the potential effects of offering businesses grants, rather from Filton, Jess Stone, has made the final of the Make than loans? UK engineering apprentice awards. Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating Jess and recognising Kwasi Kwarteng: The provision of credit, as I have the crucial importance of supporting aerospace in the suggested to some of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues, UK, both for the economy and to ensure that young has been very generous during this covid-19 period. people have the option of a skilled and rewarding Obviously, we can refine the process and we are very career—and obviously the fantastic impact that has on open to listening to ideas from hon. and right hon. social mobility? Members about how we can do that. I would like to point out that, last year,in his constituency of Midlothian, Alok Sharma: I am absolutely delighted to congratulate we issued something like £49 million-worth of credit. my hon. Friend’s constituent, Jess. I thank him for all Many of the companies in his constituency have been the work he does in his constituency to support engineering very grateful and very happy to receive that money. apprenticeships. He is absolutely right. We want the Topical Questions sector to keep supporting well-paid skilled jobs for our young people moving into the workplace as we build [908589] Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): If back better into the decade ahead. he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. [908590] Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): On Remembrance Sunday, we rightly paid tribute to the The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial fallen heroes, but let us not forget the engineering Strategy (Alok Sharma): Last week, at the CBI’s annual innovation and skills of the Rolls-Royce workers who conference, I reaffirmed our desire to build back better put engines in the first British jet fighters critical to through levelling up across the country.Weare developing winning the second world war.Workers at the Barnoldswick a new strategy for growth, a refreshed and reinvigorated site are currently on strike, fighting to save hundreds of industrial strategy that puts the UK at the forefront of highly skilled engineering jobs and, potentially, the site economic opportunity.Wewant to broaden the geography itself. Does the Minister agree with Unite the Union of our economy while taking a more strategic approach, that those jobs belong in Britain and that Government supporting research and innovation in areas where the support should absolutely be conditional on those jobs UK has the potential to both lead and change the not going offshore? world. We will work with industry as our plan for growth takes shape in the months ahead and is published Alok Sharma: I did address this issue earlier, but as in the new year. the hon. Gentleman will know Rolls-Royce has indicated that it will retain key work in Barnoldswick, including Jeff Smith: Any help for business, like the local fan blade capability relating to the Trent 700 engines, restrictions support grant, is welcome, however limited, the joint strike fighter and a new technical capability for but nightclubs and much of the night-time industries product development. I can also tell him that I will be have been required to close since 23 March, with no sign meeting a cross-party group of Members of Parliament, to an end of their problems. So should the grants not be together with Rolls-Royce, next week. backdated to that date,rather than starting on 1 November? Alok Sharma: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman [908591] Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) (Con) welcomes the support that is being provided. He also [V]: High streets up and down our country are knows that, for areas that were in tier 2 or tier 3 before struggling and rely on this peak selling time of year. the new restrictions came into force, there are backdated What is my right hon. Friend’s plan to relaunch sales payments to August equivalent to up to £2,100 a month. and drive footfall after lockdown and help to save our high streets? Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): Employers and trade unions work night and day to keep workplaces The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth covid-secure, so it is absolutely staggering that the health (Kwasi Kwarteng): I thank my hon. Friend for raising and safety inspection discovered fundamental breaches this issue; I know that she is a tireless champion for her of the guidelines in the overcrammed private office of local high street. She knows that click and collect and the Secretary of State. A member of the Minister’s staff delivery services are still possible, as are takeaway services tested positive for covid, yet the Secretary of State did for the hospitality sector. The Under-Secretary of State not self-isolate: he met Prince Charles and took a flight for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my hon. to South Korea. The need to suppress workplace Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), transmission is as great as ever, so how can working is working tirelessly with retail to make sure that once people and businesses have any trust in the Government the lockdown is over, we can bounce back more strongly when the very people responsible for setting the rules and take on board much of the important advice that ignore them in their own offices? she has been giving us. 727 Oral Answers 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 728

[908596] Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and suggestions to make about areas where we ought to be Kincardine) (Con): My right hon. Friend is aware that investing in terms of vaccine manufacturing, he should we cannot get to net zero without the technologies come forward. being developed in the oil and gas sector, on which thousands of my constituents rely for employment. [908600] Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con) [V]: With that in mind, might he be able to give an update Many businesses in Rutland and Melton create as to when we might see the long-awaited and now extraordinary food, such as Samworth Brothers, Belvoir rebranded oil and gas transition deal? Fruit Farms, Mars, and Long Clawson Dairy. They also have done an excellent job of protecting employees Kwasi Kwarteng: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for throughout the pandemic, so will the Secretary of State raising this. The oil and gas sector, as he knows, is join me in thanking them but also confirm what steps currently developing its own proposal for a transformational have been taken to safeguard supply chains, particularly North sea transition deal, as we call it now. Once we for food and food processing businesses across the receive its input and ideas, we will be able to negotiate country? with the sector to make sure that we have the right level of ambition with regard to net zero while preserving the Alok Sharma: Many years ago, I had an opportunity much-valued jobs and expertise that he and others are to work for the Mars group, and I know what a brilliant so keen to promote. job food processing companies have been doing throughout the pandemic. The food manufacturing sector can continue [908593] Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) to operate through the national restrictions as long as (Lab): Vauxhall Motors in Ellesmere Port faces an they follow the Government’sguidance on keeping factories, uncertain future, as does much of the automotive plants and warehouses covid-secure. sector, so we need Government support now more than [908595] Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP) ever. Will someone please explain what the sense is in [V]: Four weeks ago, the Prime Minister agreed with me allowing the manufacturers to stay open so that they when he said this about the green deal mis-selling can build the cars, while the showrooms remain shut so scandal: they cannot actually sell them? “We must accelerate the process by which these complaints are upheld…andcompensationisdelivered”—[OfficialReport,14October Alok Sharma: As the hon. Gentleman will know, 2020; Vol. 682, c. 372.] showrooms were one of the first businesses required to be closed that were reopened in the last national restrictions I have three constituents who have died waiting. I do period. What I would like, and what I know he wants, is not want this to be political and I do not care who gets for us get to the point on 2 December where we move the credit when it is all resolved; I just want it sorted back into local restrictions and we are able to open up out. So will the Secretary of State please meet the businesses across the country. all-party parliamentary group on green deal mis-selling as a matter of urgency and work with us to find a way forward? [908598] Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): I know that Carshalton and Wallington residents, Kwasi Kwarteng: I thank the hon. Lady for raising particularly those living in New Mill Quarter in Hackbridge, this. Obviously, this is a critical issue. We are working will be very grateful that the Government are consulting through the cases as expeditiously as we can. I am on regulating a district energy scheme network to prevent happy to meet the APPG in my capacity as Energy residents from being ripped off without any consumer Minister and resolve what has been a difficult issue—I protection. Will the Minister outline when he expects to do not deny that. report back on the consultation on district energy schemes, and can we have a timeline for implementation? [908601] Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con) [V]: I, like others, have had many approaches from my local Kwasi Kwarteng: I thank my hon. Friend for raising businesses in Sedgefield, some of which, because of this very important issue. He and I have spoken about specific rules, have received inadequate support in the this a number of times. I wish only that his council were context of what they need to survive. Bexbrides in as focused as he is on championing his residents’ interests. Hurworth and J&C Coaches in Newton Aycliffe are BEIS has recently consulted on regulating heat networks, perfect examples. Bex described it as like having a mine and our market framework from 2022 will ensure that of customers that has been flooded: you know the consumers receive reliable and regulated heat from heat customers are there—brides are still waiting to get networks. married—but you cannot get to them until the flood subsides. But you know it will. These businesses and [908594] Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) others need to keep themselves afloat until the flood (Lab): The Government claim that they want to subsides. Can the Minister please work with his friend rebalance the economy and have invested in new the Chancellor to ensure that they are better supported vaccine manufacturing capacity. Why was that not in through the next phase of the pandemic? Will he meet the north of England or other regions, rather than in me to enable me to discuss in detail the best support Braintree? options for them?

Alok Sharma: We have invested in manufacturing Kwasi Kwarteng: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for across the country. In fact, I visited Valneva, which is that important question. We fully appreciate that it is a one of the companies that is producing one of the very difficult time, and of course ministerial colleagues vaccine candidates, and we have of course invested are working constantly with Treasury colleagues and there as well. If the hon. Gentleman has particular officials to ensure that we have the right support, however 729 Oral Answers 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Oral Answers 730 this pandemic, this dreadful disease, develops. We are some business will be able to reopen. However, it is working effectively and many of the remedies are being worth pointing out that pubs and restaurants can continue widely appreciated. to operate as takeaways and support is available, including grants of up to £3,000 per month, as well as additional [908599] Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab): Forty- support through the £1.1 billion funded to local authorities. one per cent. of hair and beauty salon owners say that they do not know whether their businesses will be able Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): The Post Office to survive until Christmas, putting tens of thousands of Horizon scandal may well be the largest miscarriage of jobs at risk. Will the Business Secretary speak to the justice in our history, with over 900 false prosecutions Chancellor about the VAT cuts for hospitality and destroying lives, families and reputations.Does the Minister extend those to hair, beauty, spa and wellbeing businesses agree that a judge-led inquiry into the scandal is the to give them a much-needed boost during these very only way many sub-postmasters will be satisfied? difficult times? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Alok Sharma: I completely understand how incredibly Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): That is tough it is for many businesses, including in the sector exactly why we appointed Sir Wyn Williams, a former the hon. Member outlined. She has raised a point, and I judge, to lead the inquiry.I really hope that representatives am sure that this issue will be looked at. of the sub-postmasters will take time to meet him, in order to become familiar with his approach. He has [908604] Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): outlined his engagement strategy and we really want to Could I ask the Secretary of State to confirm that being see justice and answers as soon as possible. the first in Europe to develop a horizonal satellite launch facility is not only an ambition of Spaceport Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): In August, Cornwall but an integral part of the UK Government’s I was lucky enough to meet Dynamic Imaging Analytics space ambitions? Could I ask him to meet me to discuss in Milton Keynes—a fantastic local company that is how the Government and the UK Space Agency can doing some really cool stuff with space technology, support Spaceport Cornwall to deliver this facility for including working with our local university, the Open the benefit of the whole UK space industry? University, to mine for water on the moon. Perhaps the Minister will join me in congratulating the Open University Alok Sharma: As my hon. Friend will be aware, the on its recent successes on that. Government are committed to the space sector. We The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, have already invested £40 million to achieve satellite Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway): The launch from the early 2020s, including more than £7 million UK’s world-leading universities have a rich heritage in to establish launch services from Spaceport Cornwall. I space science and exploration, and they are key to our am sure that the science Minister, my hon. Friend the ambition of becoming a science superpower. Of course Member for Derby North (Amanda Solloway), will be I will join my hon. Friend in sending congratulations to happy to meet him to discuss that further. the scientists in his constituency on their groundbreaking [908602] Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP): Can I research. We are investing £1.5 million this year in Open ask the Minister for his assessment of the comments University space activities, including those of PROSPECT made by Marks & Spencer and Sainsbury’s in recent instruments, which will improve our understanding of days that there will be a barrier to some goods coming water on the moon—and who knows, they might put to Northern Ireland; that some will not be available the first concrete cows on the moon. and others will be available at an increased cost? Surely Mr Speaker: Excellent. that is the result of a sea border. What assurances can he give to Northern Ireland consumers that, come 1 Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): We know January, that will not be the case? that our economy is changing, supercharged by the impact of covid and new technologies that are facilitating Alok Sharma: We have been very clear on this issue the change; but does the Minister agree that it is desirable and, as the hon. Lady knows, we have introduced the and possible for companies to change in a way that United Kingdom Internal Market Bill. Of course we protects skilled jobs, whether that is Spotify’sresponsibility will continue to work on these issues. to creative workers, or BT’sresponsibility to our broadband engineers? Will the Minister do all it takes to ensure [908605] Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North that our companies invest in people as well as digital Ipswich) (Con) The Secretary of State will be aware that infrastructure? many businesses in the hospitality industry—pubs, and also some companies in the wedding industry—are Alok Sharma: The hon. Lady raises an important reliant on the six weeks around Christmas for much of point. Of course we want good jobs to be created and their profit during the winter period. What additional preserved, and I agree with her. I believe she is arguing support can he reassure me will be put into place to that we need a greater level of productivity in the ensure that the hospitality industry is properly recompensed country, and that is precisely what we are working on as for the Christmas period and the early part of the new part of our strategies. year given the difficult circumstances that we face with Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of hon. covid? Members participating in this item of business and the Alok Sharma: I recognise the difficulty that the hospitality safe arrival of those participating in the next, I suspend sector faces. Of course we want to ensure that, as we the House for three minutes. come out of the national restriction on 2 December, 12.33 pm businesses move into the tiered areas, and I hope that Sitting suspended. 731 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment 732

Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment John Healey: Last Monday, ahead of the new national lockdown in England, I said to the Defence Secretary: “If he is willing to make further use of the forces this time, this 12.37 pm House and the public will back him.”—[Official Report, 2 November Mr Speaker: Before I call the right hon. Member for 2020; Vol. 683, c. 7.] Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), I want to put on The Minister has said 341 MACA requests for help record our thanks to our armed forces for what they are have been in place since mid-March. People want to doing during this pandemic. Personally, I appreciate it. know now what the plan is; they have a right to know and they have a right to regular ministerial reporting of John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)(Urgent such decisions, which would also help to build better Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if public understanding and support for our military. he will make a statement on the deployment of the From Friday, 2,000 troops have been deployed to armed forces to assist civilian authorities in dealing Liverpool, which is double the number we have posted with the continuing covid pandemic. in Afghanistan. Mayor Joe Anderson told me last night that they are delighted to have them, for their sheer The Minister for Defence Procurement (Jeremy Quin): numbers and their logistical expertise. He said they had I thank the right hon. Member for Wentworth and set up 17 centres and had done 23,170 tests in just Dearne (John Healey) for his urgent question and for 72 hours. Is the MOD willing to agree similar MACA the opportunity to highlight the vital role of the armed support for other local authority areas? forces in responding to the pandemic. The city-wide testing, of course, is to find people with The Secretary of State was pleased to commit to covid who are infectious, but asymptomatic, and then updating colleagues about the latest developments on to ensure that they isolate and do not infect others. That covid support by placing regular updates in the House requires regular, routine and continual testing. How of Commons Library, the first of which will be delivered sustainable is that deployment? When will the 2,000 troops today. I am also pleased that the shadow Secretary of start to be withdrawn? How scalable is the deployment? State will be visiting Standing Joint Command later this Which other cities and towns will also benefit? week to meet in person the senior military leadership The Minister said that 7,500 troops are already on delivering the support across the country. stand-by as part of what he called the winter support The armed forces are renowned for their planning force. Our adversaries will watch the extent to which skills, technical capabilities and ability to provide rapid our forces are focused on covid. Will the Minister and effective deployed response. They are being put to therefore confirm that it has had no impact so far on good use yet again. At all times they are acting in forces’ training, standing commitments or capabilities support of, and at the request of, the civil authorities to respond to conflicts and threats? from every part of the United Kingdom. So far this year the Ministry of Defence has received 420 MACA— Finally,the Government have raised the whole country’s military aid to the civil authorities—requests, 341 of hopes with the news of the Pfizer vaccine, but it is which have been covid-related. The armed forces have vaccinations, not vaccines, that will protect people from provided enormous support while themselves taking all the virus. Getting the vaccine to the point of vaccination appropriate covid precautions and while maintaining requires storing and transporting it at -70°C. How is the our critical defence outputs, ensuring that at all times military involved in planning for nationwide vaccination? they are protecting our country, our interests and Will the military be involved in its delivery? How soon our friends. will it start? Our present support for the Government’s preparation If the Government do now make more use of our for the winter period, including the covid-19 response, armed forces to help fight covid, that will be widely is one of Defence’shighest priorities.Defence has established welcomed. a winter support force of approximately 7,500 deployable personnel, in addition to the many defence medics Jeremy Quin: I very much welcome the right hon. already embedded in the NHS and the support, when Gentleman’s warm words of support for the wider tasks called upon, of our defence scientists in the Defence of the armed forces. I absolutely assure him and the Science and Technology Laboratory.Defence is currently House that all essential Defence tasks continue to operate, supporting 41 MACA tasks, including assistance to the with the great professionalism and resolve of our armed whole-town testing pilot in Liverpool and the Birmingham forces, be that the continuous at-sea deterrence or quick City Council drop and collect scheme. Personnel have reaction alert or our army deployments around the previously supported activities from the Nightingale world. Clearly, we have had to take precautions; we facility construction, vaccine planning, personal protective have had to keep our troops safe and have had to ensure equipment distribution and the staffing of testing centres. that they continue to operate. Those precautions have They remain ready to undertake further tasks. been put in place, but they have continued to meet the Defence has made thorough preparations to contribute needs. Early on, we had to pause training. That has now as requested to civil authorities’ responses through the gathered momentum again and I am pleased to say that MACA system and will keep the force elements held in we are seeing an increase in the number of people readiness to do so under constant review, adjusting the applying to join our armed forces, which is, I think, capabilities provided to meet demand. The nation can inspired by the work that they are doing in all our be reassured, especially in this week of remembrance, communities. that Defence stands ready, as ever, to support whenever, The right hon. Gentleman raised other points. What wherever and however required, and will continue to do is the plan? We stand ready to support other parts of so, for as long as is necessary. the Government. We work in partnership with other 733 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment10 NOVEMBER 2020 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment 734

[Jeremy Quin] to much panic buying in supermarkets and subsequent shortages of food and other items. Will he lay before the parts of the Government. As the Department of Health House—perhaps not today, but at some point—what and Social Care and the devolved Governments require the country can expect to see from the armed forces in a our support, we are there to provide and assist. future vaccination roll-out, so that it does not catch us I am pleased that the right hon. Gentleman spoke to by surprise and, crucially, so that it cannot be weaponised the Mayor of Liverpool yesterday. I hear constantly of against our fellow citizens? the great work between Liverpool City Council, the local NHS and our forces who are assisting them in this Jeremy Quin: First, I do not know the exact number process. I think the pilot is now at 18 test centres, with a of requests. I have actually asked, and I will write to the large number continuing to be supplied as we work with hon. Gentleman with the exact numbers, split between the city council. However, it is a pilot, and we need to Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England. I know see what we can learn from it and test its effectiveness, that we have been very active. In fact I recall, right at the which has been so far, so good. It is scalable, and as part very start of this crisis—when I was sadly unwell with of this programme we are talking to civilian agencies, the wretched thing and battling a high temperature and the council and the NHS about how others can step in. other symptoms—getting a call at four o’clock in the Often, as in the case of the mobile testing units, the morning on a MACA request for a gentleman to be armed forces lead the way, but others may well come moved from Orkney down to what is probably the hon. through if the Department of Health and Social Care Gentleman’s constituency.That made quite an impression and others believe that this should be deployed more on me. It showed me, first, how lucky I was, all things widely across the country. considered—that gentleman was seriously ill; and secondly, how wonderful it is that we have professional armed Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford forces, able at the drop of a hat to go and deliver and Green) (Con): It is a long time since I served in the collect and look after people, wherever they are in our armed forces, but one lesson I took from my service was United Kingdom. I will come back to the hon. Gentleman that headquarters command and control is absolutely on the specific point regarding the number of MACA vital when going through an operation. I note, when I requests coming from Scotland. We are delighted to look at what is happening on test and trace, that there work with the Scottish Government. are now four centres—the Joint Biosecurity Centre in On the roll-out of the vaccines, I will not speculate on the DHSC, the National Covid Response Centre, the what role there might be for the Ministry of Defence. covid taskforce in the Cabinet Office and the covid data We clearly work with other Government Departments, analysis directorate—each with its own director general giving logistical and planning support. We are there to and none under a single enforceable chain of command. help and to provide assistance, but we are still at the Given that the chain of command at headquarters level very early stages on the vaccine, as the Prime Minister is vital, and that a three or four-star general would be was clear yesterday, so it would be inappropriate to required in a military operation, will the Minister please speculate at this stage. tell me whether the Government have at any stage asked the MOD to implement a chain of command and Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Given headquarters command and control for the whole of that planning for sudden, fast-moving events and surges test and trace, to make sure that it is now co-ordinated is part of our military’s stock in trade, why have they and active? If not, why not? not been more involved in planning since the outset, especially given the comparison with all those costly Jeremy Quin: It may be a while since my right hon. and failing private contractors? Friend served in the armed forces, but the Scots Guards’ loss is certainly our gain in this place. I thank him for Jeremy Quin: I think the hon. Gentleman is aware his question. It is not for Defence to tell other Departments that Defence has been involved from the outset on how best to deliver their tasking. We are there to planning and logistics. At an early stage, Defence was support them, and I am proud of the support that we called on, as it is regularly; we have had, on average, are providing, with liaison officers across Government about 130 MACA requests a year for the past few years, and other Departments and hundreds of people embedded and we are well used to working at a local level and a in local resilience forums,enabling a network of information national level with partners across Government. There and intelligence to be gathered and proper support and is a role for the military and a role they can pass on. For tasking to be done on the ground. example, the military did a fantastic job on working with our partners in Health to provide the mobile Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP): testing units, but it is appropriate at some stage, when I thank the shadow Secretary of State for tabling the others get up to speed, that we hand over that task in urgent question. Like others, I put on the record the order to be ready to undertake the next role, which in thanks of the Scottish National party to the armed this case includes the whole-city pilot in Liverpool. forces for what they have done in this crisis, not least in my home city of Glasgow with the Louisa Jordan hospital. Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): May I ask the Minister two specific things? Will he NHS Test and Trace has grown from literally zero to outline how many of the 341 requests he mentioned being the size of Asda in little more than six months, came from Scotland and, perhaps at a later stage, from and it would be difficult to imagine an organisation that where? On the vaccination programme that the shadow has grown so quickly that would not be organisationally Secretary of State mentioned, the Minister will recall challenged. May I suggest that if the MOD has not that, at the start of this crisis, the armed forces being been asked for headquarters capability, it should offer deployed across the country became an ideal opportunity headquarters capability to NHS Test and Trace, as I am for our adversaries to spread disinformation, which led sure it would be welcomed with open arms? 735 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment10 NOVEMBER 2020 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment 736

Jeremy Quin: I believe I am right in saying that we are Many of our overseas armed forces personnel are indeed assisting NHS Test and Trace, and others; as working in an extremely challenging environment, owing required, we help with logistics, planning and support, to the present pandemic. May I ask what Her Majesty’s and we are keen to do that. I will not stray into other Government are doing on PPE and testing for these Departments’business, but the sheer scale of the build-out extremely hard-working people? that my hon. Friend refers to is obviously the case. It is also the case that we have moved our capability from Jeremy Quin: We thank the relative of the hon. 2,000 tests a day to more than half a million tests a day. Gentleman for his or her service in the armed forces. On These are huge challenges that have been undertaken by PPE, all precautions are being taken. We have good other Departments. advice from the Department of Health as to what PPE should be deployed, and we use that advice to ensure Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) [V]: that we are consistently covid compliant. Members of The Vice Chief of the Defence Staff has said that the armed forces currently helping with the pilot scheme Defence should no longer be considered a “last resort in Liverpool are being regularly tested, alongside the option”, something that was formalised in the 2015 residents they are helping and testing. On overseas strategic defence and security review, which announced deployments, we always have a view to our own covid that regulations and those of the host nations where we are “we will place military planners in key government departments serving. As a matter of routine, military personnel have to give the military a wider and more formal role in supporting a quarantine period before they go out to ensure that national resilience contingency planning.” they are safe on arrival at their deployed station. If that is the case, why have the armed forces been Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): There deployed in such a limited way throughout this pandemic? can be no better week than this for all of us to take the time to recognise and thank the armed forces for their Jeremy Quin: At the high point, I believe we had contribution. Does my hon. Friend agree that the reservists 7,500 military personnel deployed in support of the have also been playing an incredibly important role, and civil power, so it has been a large-scale commitment by will he join me in thanking them for their contribution Defence, alongside our other tasks. We stand ready to in the battle against coronavirus? respond with those numbers or more if required. The hon. Lady is right to say that we are always there to Jeremy Quin: Absolutely. We are blessed in the armed plan, assist and support, but we do so in response to forces to have reservists with tremendous capabilities, requests, and I know she would respect that principle. who have been able to provide their expertise and Defence is always here to help and to be engaged, and professionalism yet again. I absolutely pay tribute to there is a great trust from the British nation, particularly those reservists who answered the call and came to this week, when we think of what has gone before. We support us. always respond at the request of the civil power and to support it. Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP): I learned earlier in the pandemic that four MACA requests had been Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): May I made from Northern Ireland; three were satisfied and a ask the Minister to pay particular tribute to the science commercial alternative was found to the other. I am and to the scientists working at the Defence Science and pleased that those applications were progressed positively Technology Laboratory, and to the important role they without immature political interference from some members are playing? As we see this increased visibility domestically of the Northern Ireland Executive. Will the Minister from our armed forces, is it helping with the important confirm whether there has been a recent request regarding task of recruitment into our armed forces? testing on a larger scale in Northern Ireland, and that, should there be, the MOD would respond positively? Jeremy Quin: There speaks a distinguished former Jeremy Quin: I am very aware of the support that we Defence Minister; it is a pleasure to see my hon. Friend have provided to Northern Ireland. We are always ready in her place. I am glad that she has mentioned DSTL. to support any area of the United Kingdom that requires On a whole series of tasks, from helping the Welsh our support and assistance, and are delighted to work ambulance service through to planning for a range of together to get on top of this dreadful pandemic. Any options that have come through to the military—including requests made of the Ministry of Defence will be looked how we roll out modelling for a whole range of projects at in the usual manner; we would look to help, as during the course of this pandemic—DSTL has done a always. first-class job. I am therefore delighted that she has mentioned it in the Chamber. On recruitment, what she Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con): So much of the military’s expects has come to pass. We have seen a 13% increase work is done behind the scenes. It has been really in applications to join the armed forces in the year to helpful to hear today in how many areas they are July 2020, and retention has increased. That reflects the already deployed in the fight against the pandemic, but pride that people have in our armed forces. They see will my hon. Friend assure me that the critical tasks for members of the armed forces doing such a valuable task the defence of this nation are not being compromised around our country day in, day out, and they are by all the work that is being done for covid? responding in kind. Jeremy Quin: I can absolutely give my hon. Friend Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) that assurance. The military have a vast range of tasks, (LD) [V]: Greetings from the far north of Scotland. not only here at home but overseas. We have continued May I remind the House that a member of my close to operate throughout this period. Precautions have family is serving with the armed forces? been put in place, but on key issues such as the continuous 737 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment10 NOVEMBER 2020 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment 738

[Jeremy Quin] will the Minister tell me what conversations he has had with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local at-sea deterrent, the quick reaction alert and our forces Government about the support that the armed forces overseas, the military have continued to maintain their will be giving in our council areas, particularly to ensure outputs. Importantly, they have been able to continue to that that support is co-ordinated and targeted where it train, so we have the confidence that they will be able to is needed? provide those key defence tasks into the future. Jeremy Quin: We are all grateful for the work that Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I echo councils have done—be it Liverpool City Council or the shadow Secretary of State’s thanks for the councils elsewhere in the country, they have had a huge professionalism of the armed services personnel and task to meet. Hundreds of military advisers have been the help that my constituents have received. We in deployed through the local resilience forums, working Liverpool really do appreciate it. with councils and other local authorities, and I assure The mass testing pilot in Liverpool is due to be the hon. Lady that we will continue to provide that reviewed after 10 days to two weeks. Does the Minister support. accept that more time will be needed to meet the objectives of testing everyone? If so, will he ensure that the pilot Mr Speaker: Let us head up to Lichfield—my word, remains in place in Liverpool until the end of the we have the cathedral in the background—to Michael national lockdown on 2 December, and that some armed Fabricant, who is looking rather orange today. forces personnel remain with us after that time to ensure that a smaller number of mass testing centres can Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con) [V]: Oh dear: I remain open to enable us to keep on top of the virus? am worried that you say I am looking orange, Mr Speaker —it makes me think of Donald Trump. Jeremy Quin: I welcome the points made by the hon. I understand that my hon. Friend the Minister wants Lady. If I may say so, we are really enjoying working to be cautious about the vaccine, but the Department with Liverpool—it is a tremendous team effort and I of Health and Social Care has acquired the rights to know that the armed forces are really proud to be part 350 million doses of six different vaccines. As we heard of it. Of course, many of them have been recruited from yesterday, one of those vaccines, from Pfizer, needs to that area and are really enjoying being able to help their be transported at temperatures under -70° C, although own friends and families and the communities that they others do not. Whatever happens, it is a huge logistics know so well. problem. Now is not the time to be shy: the armed On the hon. Lady’s specific asks, it is not really for the forces are very good at logistics and I strongly suggest Ministry of Defence to decide when is the right time for that now is the time that my hon. Friend should be the pilot to come to a conclusion. We are there to suggesting to the Government—and not waiting for the provide support and assistance, and if that needs to go Government or other Departments to say to him—that on longer, that will definitely be looked at, and I would the armed forces are ready to help in the logistics of the think it will be looked at very sympathetically, because distribution of these vaccines and maybe even in we want to make certain that there is a successful pilot inoculations. from which we can take decisions and see whether it can be rolled out more widely. But that is a decision to be Jeremy Quin: My hon. Friend is never shy, and neither taken on the basis of the facts. is the Ministry of Defence shy in being very proud of the capabilities that we have and can deploy. He is Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): I absolutely right that those capabilities include logistics echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for and support of that nature, and we are absolutely ready Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Mullan) in thanking our to provide that support as required. reserve forces and paying tribute to them for everything they are doing to assist the Government in this very Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): The difficult time. Reservists are ready to go anywhere at a excellence of our armed forces in civil contingency moment’s notice, but will the Minister ensure that when operations,whether in support, service or strategic planning, they are mobilised for this deployment, consideration is is noted by us all. given to the fact that they need to tidy up their affairs in In York, we have the medical services training centre. respect of their jobs and family commitments? How is that being deployed at this time to make sure that our NHS is not overwhelmed this winter? How are Jeremy Quin: My hon. Friend speaks from experience: we planning to ensure that the support is there when it he is a reservist who served in Operation Herrick, from is needed? memory. We try to do intelligent mobilisation—we try to engage with our reservists to see who is available and Jeremy Quin: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. who might like to be involved, and those with specialist I believe that there are 1,600 medics currently deployed skills in particular invariably say, “Yes, call us.” We are and embedded in the NHS, and we will do all we can to working with our reservists and will always try to give a support them throughout the winter period. I do appreciate suitable period of time to enable them to balance family her interest. We will continue to provide that support to and work commitments. We are enormously indebted the NHS in the months ahead. to those who step forward. Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) [V]: This week in Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab): Today is Councils particular, we all remember with gratitude the price that Can Day, so I am sure the Minister would like to join so many service personnel have paid in time of war. I me in thanking local councils for everything they are also associate myself with the thanks expressed by doing to tackle the coronavirus pandemic. On that note, other Members for the work that the armed forces have 739 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment10 NOVEMBER 2020 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment 740 been doing just now to protect us in the face of such a Liverpool is obviously a pilot, a major undertaking, huge peacetime threat. The armed forces draw their and we will see the success of that pilot and whether it personnel from every community of the United Kingdom, has scalability to be passed out elsewhere. That is a and every citizen in every part of the United Kingdom matter for the Department of Health and others to contributes to the cost through their taxes. Will the opine on. On helping elsewhere in the country, the Minister tell us what measures are in place to make sure military led with mobile testing units. They were there that the deployment of the armed forces just now is in the first rank to ensure that testing got up and going. based on an assessment of where they can be most That has now been passed over, and now, I think, there effective and where their efforts are most needed? are 620 testing centres around the country, so the Army has stepped back from that, but we stand ready to help Jeremy Quin: To reassure the hon. Gentleman, I do in other ways if called upon by other Government not think that we have ever needed to have that kind of Departments. discussion, because when we receive MACA requests, be they from Scotland or from elsewhere, we judge them Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) on their merits, on where we can help and on where (Lab): Hull now has the third highest seven-day rate of there is support that can be provided, and that is new cases per 100,000 residents across English upper-tier routinely honoured. It is not a case of having to ration local authorities. Test and trace remains a key part of support at the moment. I think that I said earlier that fighting this virus. I am incredibly impressed to hear of 7,500 were deployed actively, but I think that was the the pilot that has happened in Liverpool, so does the number available. There are only about 4,000 who are Minister have plans to deploy armed forces in Hull and actively deployed on the ground, which means that we East Riding to help them scale-up test and trace? always have that extra resilience built in. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that, if a request comes in from Scotland Jeremy Quin: I am sorry to hear the statistics from or elsewhere, it will always be very sympathetically Hull, which are indeed sobering, but I repeat what I said looked at by the Ministry of Defence. to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden). Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): May I put on There is a particular project at the moment in Liverpool—a record my thanks to the City Mayor’s Office, to our whole-city testing pilot. We are there to help and to director of public health, Matt Ashton, and his staff respond to MACA requests. As a basic principle, we and to the skilled and expert men and women of the will often lead and show the way, and help pass on our armed forces? This is the first mass testing pilot of its expertise and knowledge to civilian contractors, but kind—a massive logistical effort in which the military fundamentally there comes a point where local authorities are supporting the people of Liverpool. We warmly and the Department of Health and Social Care will welcome our service personnel and, rather than have wish to take on the responsibilities for the covid challenge the likes of Serco plundering public money while failing from the military once it has set up processes and the public, may I encourage the Minister and say that worked to establish first principles. we want a response to covid-19 that is publicly led by the NHS, by public health professionals and by local Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): When authorities, and backed up by the logistical expertise of the major generals removed liberties, Oliver Cromwell our armed forces where necessary? wondered publicly if even arming one in 10 would be sufficient to enforce it. Will the Minister assure me that Jeremy Quin: May I re-echo what the hon. Gentleman the armed forces will not be used to enforce any coronavirus said so accurately about the response that has been met regulations? on the ground to armed forces personnel? They have been really chuffed to see the way that people in Liverpool Jeremy Quin: I can reassure my right hon. Friend that have responded—they have been coming in their thousands I know many fine major generals but I do not know any to be tested—and they are very grateful for the warmth that would wish to return to the 1650s. I can also of their support, and I thank him for reminding the reassure him that there is no way that the armed forces House of that. They will be there to support this will be used to enforce coronavirus regulations. programme, but there is a well-founded MACA tradition that the military often lead and find ways of doing Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): May I also express things, but then try to pass over to civilian authorities—to the thanks of my constituents for the work that the Liverpool City Council in the lead working, I suspect, armed forces have been doing in response to the coronavirus with the Department of Health and Social Care—in the pandemic? The Minister has already revealed to the future. House that military assistance to civil authorities’requests Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Anyone who has quadrupled this year, for understandable reasons. watched the briefing last night with Brigadier Joe Fossey As we approach the end of the year, with the potential could not help but be impressed by the professionalism for a vaccine to be deployed and, it has to be said, some of the brigadier and his team in Liverpool. What extra of the pressures that will be placed on the country as a capacity remains within the armed forces to help other result of Brexit, is he confident that all future MACA council areas, particularly in the north of England with requests will be able to be met because he has the my Kirklees Council area—450 cases plus per 100,0000 at appropriate capacity? the moment—not only to help with the mass testing, but to support localised track and trace effectiveness? Jeremy Quin: First, I wish the hon. Lady’s constituents well at a difficult time, and I am glad that the military Jeremy Quin: I recognise the particular issues in has been well received in her constituency. We are Kirklees. I am glad that my hon. Friend has brought looking at how we scale up. We are always in the process them to the House’s attention. What we are doing in of planning to see how we can get the extra resources if 741 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment10 NOVEMBER 2020 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment 742

[Jeremy Quin] confirm what my hon. Friend says relating to increased interest in the armed forces. As I say, recruitment is well required and if called upon, so I have a great deal of up this year, as is retention, and I am delighted to see confidence that we will be able to continue to meet both. MACA requests. Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Following [V]: May I put on the record my gratitude for the work on from that question, there is no point in repeating that the armed forces are doing in combating this global what has been said many times this afternoon that the pandemic? It does seem that there are other countries armed forces act with superb professionalism, but the that may be better organised in emergency management, moment this crisis is over, we can be assured, judging by so what lessons have been learned by the UK Government history, that the bean counters in the Treasury will be from how other countries have been handling the crisis? putting pressure on the MOD for further cuts. We saw it after the end of the cold war and the Afghanistan war, Jeremy Quin: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the and it will carry on. Will the Minister give me an question. We always look at what other people do and assurance today that both he and the Secretary of State how other people respond, but there has been a great will vigorously resist, with the help of No. 10, any well of support—as, indeed, came from him—for the further cuts in our armed forces? work done by the armed forces, how they have responded to requests that have come in and how they have continued Jeremy Quin: I feel that I ought to declare an interest to assist other Departments in ensuring that we get the because I once served in the Treasury—I put that on the very best response in this country. record—but I can absolutely reassure my right hon. Friend that decisions made on resources for the armed Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): May I put forces through the integrated review are made on the on record the fact that this response to the pandemic basis of threat. That is core to the work that we are has demonstrated the United Kingdom at its best? My undertaking, and I hope that he will take that reassurance. local regiment, 1st Battalion the Rifles, helped the Welsh ambulance service with testing and the Royal Welsh Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister helped in Gloucester with the testing facility there, for his responses and put on the record my thanks to the which I had the opportunity to visit. May I just probe Army and its personnel for what they do across my the Minister a little further on the question the shadow constituency and elsewhere. The British Army and Secretary of State and other Members asked about the Territorial Army detachments in Northern Ireland are vaccine situation? I think the Minister said that the drawn from both sides of the community—both Roman MOD stood ready to help. May I ask if he has had any Catholic and Protestant, and nationalist and Unionist; requests from civilian authorities to assist with vaccine they both serve in the same uniform. Will there be an roll-out and, if so, what those plans are? opportunity for the British Army to assist, if it is called upon by the Northern Ireland Assembly? Can the Minister Jeremy Quin: My understanding is that work is being also assure the House that no soldier will be asked to go done on planning, logistics and how we would support anywhere without the appropriate PPE and training to the important role with a vaccine, but I really would deal with people in these very difficult and different days? counsel that this is still very early days on the vaccine, as the Prime Minister made clear yesterday. We are ready Jeremy Quin: Wewill ensure that all deployed personnel to assist on logistics and planning—thoughts, preparations get the right PPE and take the right covid precautions. I and logistics—but this is early days still. warmly welcome what the hon. Gentleman says about how the armed forces represent the whole of our great Mr Speaker: I call the Chair of the Defence Committee, nation right across the board. We are proud that that is Tobias Ellwood. the case and we are always working to ensure that it is the case. We will always stand ready to listen to any Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): Thank MACA requests that come in, and we will always look you, Mr Speaker. I am grateful to catch your eye. at those sympathetically if we can. I hope the message is loud and clear that the Minister Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con): I should declare hears today: we are absolutely proud of what our armed an interest as a proud patron of the Military Preparation forces do, but, given their vast experience in emergency College, which has an Eastbourne campus. I am delighted planning, crisis management and, indeed, strategic thinking, to tell my hon. Friend that there has been a significant they are a vastly underused asset in the biggest crisis we increase in applications to the college, so inspired are have seen since the second world war. With what we face young people by what they have seen of military service today,we have logistical challenges, command-and-control in our town—not least in May, when military personnel challenges, communications challenges and operational set up a temporary mobile site that enabled rapid testing challenges. These are all things the armed forces can do, of essential workers so that our hospice, our hospital yet there is not a place for them at the quad, the top and our care homes were all able to continue. Will he decision-making body dealing with this pandemic. Does join me in thanking military personnel who have served my hon. Friend not think that is incorrect? in Sussex? Jeremy Quin: I welcome what my right hon. Friend Jeremy Quin: I should also declare an interest because says about the support that is provided by the armed I am a Sussex Member of Parliament. Those military forces. He is absolutely right that we have a vast array of personnel have done a terrific job, including, I recall, in areas where we can support and provide assistance to May with the mobile testing unit. I am delighted to other Departments. However, as he is very well aware, 743 Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment 10 NOVEMBER 2020 744 the process is that the civil authority comes to us to Covid-19 Update request assistance, and we always stand ready to receive such reports. 1.21 pm Mr Speaker: In order to allow the safe exit of The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care hon. Members participating in this item of business and (Matt Hancock): With permission, Mr Speaker, I would the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am like to make a statement on coronavirus. suspending the House for three minutes. The virus remains a powerful adversary, but we are 1.18 pm marshalling the forces of science and human ingenuity. These forces are growing stronger, and I have no doubt Sitting suspended. that in time, we will prevail. The latest figures show that the number of cases continues to rise, so we must all play our part to get it under control. As I have said many times at this Dispatch Box, our strategy is to suppress the virus, supporting education, the economy and the NHS, until a vaccine can be deployed. That is our plan, and with the resolve that we must all show, we can see that that plan is working. Before turning to progress on testing and on vaccines, I first want to update the House on our response to the new variant strain of coronavirus that has been identified in Denmark. This shows how vigilant we must be. We have been monitoring the spread of coronavirus in European mink farms for some time, especially in the major countries for mink farming such as Denmark, Spain, Poland and the Netherlands. Spain had already announced the destruction of its farmed mink population in April. On Thursday evening last, I was alerted to a significant development in Denmark of new evidence that the virus had spread back from mink to humans in a variant form that did not fully respond to covid-19 antibodies. Although the chance of this variant becoming widespread is low, the consequences, should that happen, would be grave. So working with my right hon. Friends the Home Secretary and the Transport Secretary and all the devolved Administrations, we removed the travel corridor for travel from Denmark in the early hours of Friday morning. On Saturday and over the weekend, following further clinical analysis, we introduced a full ban on all international travel from Denmark. British nationals or residents who are returning from Denmark, whether directly or indirectly, can still travel here, but they must fully self-isolate, along with all other members of their household, until two weeks after they were in Denmark. These are serious steps, and I understand the consequences for people, but I think that the whole House will understand why we had to act so quickly and decisively. Be in no doubt, we will do what needs to be done to protect this country. We do not resile from our duty to protect, and to suppress the virus, we must harness new technology to keep people safe and, in time, to liberate. Our ability to suppress the virus begins with testing for it, and the House will know that we have been driving forward testing capacity based on new technologies and old. Yesterday, our polymerase chain reaction—PCR—testing capacity stood at 517,957, which is the largest testing capacity in Europe. Over 10 million people in the UK have now been tested at least once through NHS Test and Trace, and our NHS covid-19 contact tracing app is now approaching 20 million downloads, yet this historic expansion is just one part of our critical national infrastructure for testing. Just as we drive testing capacity on the existing technology, so, too, have we invested in the development of the new. I have been criticised for 745 Covid-19 Update 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 746

[Matt Hancock] said, we must not slacken our resolve. There are no guarantees, so it is critical that people continue to abide this obsession with new testing capacity, but we have by the rules and that we all work together to get the R not wavered from the task, and we are now seeing the number below 1. fruits of this effort. If this or any other vaccine is approved, we will be Last week, we expanded the pilot in Stoke-on-Trent ready to begin a large-scale vaccination programme, to Liverpool, where we have deployed enough of the first to priority groups,as recommended by the independent cutting-edge lateral flow tests to offer tests to the whole Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, city. These tests can deliver a result on someone’s then rolling it out more widely.Our plans for deployment infectiousness in under 15 minutes, so that they can get of a covid vaccine are built on tried and tested plans for almost immediate reassurance about their condition a flu vaccine, which we of course deploy every autumn. and so that we can find and isolate the positives and We do not yet know whether or when a vaccine is reassure the negatives. To make this happen, NHS Test approved, but I have tasked the NHS with being ready and Trace has been working side by side with the from any date from 1 December. The logistics are logistical heft of our armed services and Liverpool City complex, the uncertainties are real and the scale of the Council, and I want to thank Mayor Joe Anderson and job is vast, but I know that the NHS, brilliantly assisted his whole team for their work. by the armed services, will be up to the task. Next, these tests allow us from today to begin rolling I can tell the House that last night we wrote to GPs, out twice-weekly testing for all NHS staff, which will setting out £150 million of immediate support and help to keep people safe when they go into hospital and setting out what we need of them, working alongside help to keep my wonderful colleagues in the NHS safe, hospitals and pharmacies, in preparing for deployment. too. The next step is to roll out this mass testing The deployment of the vaccine will involve working capability more widely, and I can tell the House that last long days and weekends, and that comes on top of all night I wrote to 67 directors of public health who have the NHS has already done for us this year. I want to expressed an interest in making 10,000 tests available thank in advance my NHS colleagues for the work that immediately and making available lateral flow tests for this will entail. I know that they will rise to the challenge use by local officials according to local needs at a rate of of being ready, when the science comes good, to inject 10% of their population per week. That same capacity— hope into millions of arms this winter. 10% of the population per week—will also be made The course of human history is marked by advances available to the devolved Administrations. By combining where our collective ingenuity helps us to vanquish the the local knowledge of public health leaders with our most deadly threats. Coronavirus is a disease that strikes extensive national infrastructure, we can tackle this at what it is to be human, at the social bonds that unite virus in our communities and help our efforts to bring us. We must come together as one to defeat this latest the R down. Testing provides confidence, and it is that threat to humanity. There are many hard days ahead, confidence that will help to get Britain back on her feet many hurdles to overcome, but our plan is working. I once more. am more sure than ever that we will prevail together. While we expand testing to find the virus, the best way to liberate and to get life closer to normal is a vaccine, and I can report to the House the news of the 1.31 pm first phase 3 trial results of any vaccine anywhere in the Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op): world. After tests on 43,000 volunteers, of whom half As always, I thank the Secretary of State for advanced got the vaccine and half got a placebo, interim results sight of his statement. May I just take this opportunity suggest that it is proving 90% effective at protecting to congratulate President-elect Biden and Vice-President- people against the virus. This is promising news. We in elect Harris? I am sure the whole House looks forward the UK are among the first to identify the promise to close international co-operation to defeat this virus. shown by the vaccine, and we have secured an order of I welcome the announcement, in the past 24 hours, of 40 million doses. That puts us towards the front of the routine testing for frontline NHS staff. The Secretary international pack, and we have placed orders for of State will know that that is something I and the 300 million further doses from five other vaccine candidates Chair of the Health Committee have been pushing for, that have yet to report their phase 3 results, including for some months. It is welcome that we are now in a the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine. position to extend that testing. It is important not just I want to make it clear to the House that we do not to protect our NHS staff—I join him in thanking them—but have a vaccine yet, but we are one step closer. There are for infection control in healthcare settings, too. many steps still to take. The full safety data are not yet available, and our strong and independent regulator the On the roll-out of the lateral flow test that the right Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency hon. Gentleman announced today, I understand he is will not approve a vaccine until it is clinically safe. Until giving discretion to directors of public health. Does he it is rolled out, we will not know how long its effect lasts, agree that relatives of care home residents should be or its impact not just on keeping people safe but on given priority access to those tests, so they can go into reducing transmission. The deputy chief medical officer, the care home, see their loved ones and even, maybe, Jonathan Van-Tam, said yesterday that this was like the hold their hand or hug them? first goal scored in a penalty shoot-out: Testing is only one part of the jigsaw, of course. To “You have not won the cup yet, but it tells you that the avoid this lockdown becoming a let-down, we need to goalkeeper can be beaten.” put contact tracing in the hands of public health teams And beat this virus we must, we can and we will. from day one, so will the Health Secretary update the Yesterday’s announcement marks an important step in House on how he is fixing contact tracing? He may have the battle against covid-19, but, as the Prime Minister seen Dido Harding at the relevant Select Committee 747 Covid-19 Update 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 748 just now. She confirmed that when it comes to isolation, Matt Hancock: I am very grateful to the hon. Member people find it “very difficult” and that the “need to keep for his questions and for the approach that he is rightly earning and feed your family is fundamental”. Will he taking. Like him, I am delighted that we are able to therefore now accept that a better package of financial roll-out routine testing to NHS staff. That starts today. support is needed to ensure that isolation is adhered to? I am grateful to him for his support and I am grateful On the vaccine, this is a moment of great hope in a for the support and the urging of the Chair of the bleak dismal year that has shattered so many families. Health and Social Care Committee, my right hon. We are optimistic, though cautious—quite rightly. We Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy need to see the full results, the demographic details of Hunt). the trials and understand the implications for severe On contact tracing, we continue to work on the cases. There will be clinical judgments by the relevant constant improvement needed, but, as the hon. Member committee on the priority lists, which we all understand, said, the expansion of testing in a radical way because but can the right hon. Gentleman outline the latest of the new technology that we have invested in and clinical thinking on the vaccination of children? Will spent months working on, means that we will now be the disproportionate impact of the virus on minority able to find more of the primary cases and more of the ethnic communities be taken into account by the relevant people who have the disease and then will be able to get clinicians when drawing up the final priority list? What them and their contacts to isolate. The single most is the Government’s current working assumption of the important challenge is finding the people who have the proportion of the population that needs to be vaccinated virus in the first place. to establish herd immunity and bring R below one? Over what timeframe does he envisage that happening The hon. Member mentioned children. The vaccine and how many doses does he think we will need? As we will not be used for children. It has not been tested on vaccinate the most vulnerable, there will be fewer people children. The reason is that the likelihood of children at risk, and deaths and infections will come down. having significant detriment if they catch covid-19 is However,the virus is now endemic, so is it the Government’s very, very low. This is an adult vaccine for the adult current working assumption that social distancing and population. mask wearing will need to continue until that herd He asked about the JCVI prioritisation. It is really immunity is reached? important that we prioritise according to clinical risk. Fundamentally, for this to work ,we need a plan for The JCVI has looked into all the risk factors, including the manufacture and distribution of the vaccine. May I ethnicity. It has concluded that age and whether a gently suggest to the Secretary of State that the roll-out person works in health and social care are the two of test and trace and the early procurement of personal prime risk factors, which far outweigh any other, and so protective equipment was not as smooth as it might they are the primary risk factors that cascade into the otherwise have been? None of us constituency MPs draft interim prioritisation that it published on wants to see booking systems overloaded and our 25 September, which of course will be updated as it gets constituents told to travel hundreds of miles for a jab, the final data that comes through from the clinical like we saw earlier this year with testing, so what is the trials. plan? Will he publish a strategy? Can he tell us how He asked about the proportion of the population much will be invested in the covid vaccination programme? that needs to be vaccinated. The honest truth to that We need secure supply chains. Are the Government question is that we do not know what proportion of the working internationally to ensure there are enough raw population the vaccination needs to reach in order for it materials, enzymes and bioreactors to guarantee the to stop the epidemic. The reason we do not know that is mass manufacturing that is needed? that a clinical trial can check for the impact of the vaccine on protecting the individual—43,000 individuals, On distribution, the Pfizer vaccine needs to be kept at half of whom have had the vaccine. What cannot be -70°C. Cold chain transport and storage is needed. A checked is the impact on the transmission of the disease year ago, the Secretary of State used to boast that he by those people, because a significant proportion of the was the country’s biggest purchaser of fridges. Is he population have to have had the vaccination to understand procuring the appropriate storage equipment now? Will that. That is the difference between a so-called disease- liquid nitrogen and freezers be provided to health centres, modifying vaccine, which tests how much it affects the doctors’ practices and care homes? Will cold chain disease that an individual suffers if they get covid-19, distribution be in place in all parts of the country? versus an epidemic-modifying vaccine, which is about Last year, the World Health Organisation described the impact on the spread and transmission of the disease. vaccine hesitancy as one of the top 10 threats to global We cannot know that until after the vaccine has been health. May I again reiterate my offer to work with him rolled out, so we will monitor that very closely. on a cross-party basis to build public confidence in the The hon. Gentleman asked about manufacture, which vaccine, promote take-up and dispel anti-vax myths? I is important, and for this vaccine that is a matter for rather suspect all Members working across the House Pfizer. It is a difficult process. Distribution is also a to promote take-up would prove more cost-effective huge challenge, and that is being led by the NHS. than paying £670,000 of taxpayers’ money to fancy PR Because the vaccine must be stored at minus 70° until consultants. the final hours, the cold-chain requirements are significant This is an important moment. We see a glimmer of and add to the logistical complications. However, we light in the distance at the end of this long, dark tunnel. have known about that cold-chain requirement for many Our constituents are hopeful. We look forward to rapid months, and it has been part of our planning for some progress in the distribution of the vaccine, so we can all time. We have a good degree of confidence that that will get back to normal. be in place. 749 Covid-19 Update 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 750

[Matt Hancock] it will reduce transmission, so it does not remove the need to control viral spread using current measures. Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked about international While I also welcome the expansion of PCR testing, I collaboration. I am delighted that the UK has been a am sure he recognises that what matters is not just the leader in efforts for international collaboration to find a number of tests available but that testing is part of a vaccine. It has put in more money than any other test, trace, isolate and support system for it to be nation, co-ordinating and bringing together scientists effective. Five months on, Serco is still struggling to and vaccine specialists, and using our aid budget to reach even 60% of contacts, so will he copy the more ensure that people around the world get the vaccine in successful approach of the devolved nations and fund countries that, in some cases, could not afford to vaccinate local public health teams to lead contact tracing in their their own population. Weare a big part of the international areas? work, and I very much look forward to working with An effective test and trace system can identify those colleagues in the United States, and everywhere else carrying the virus rather than isolating everyone in a around the world, to ensure that we have a global lockdown, but it is isolation that actually breaks the vaccination programme as soon as a safe and effective chains of infection. Is the Secretary of State therefore set of vaccines can be made available. concerned that so few people are isolating when they Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): I warmly should? How can that be improved? People will not stay congratulate the Health Secretary on securing access to off work if that means they cannot feed their family, so the new vaccine. Choosing which vaccine to back must how will he make access to the Government’s isolation be a bit like playing roulette, and to secure 40 million payment easier? doses of the first vaccine to prove efficacious is an enormous achievement for the country. He deserves Matt Hancock: Of course, we are working to ensure great credit for that. I also thank him for bringing that, by us all working together and making sacrifices, forward the introduction of weekly testing of NHS staff we can come out of this lockdown and into the tiered to the end of next week. That will reassure our very approach we had in place beforehand. That is the goal, hardworking front-line staff that they are not infecting and the more that people follow the rules during the their patients, which is one of their primary worries. lockdown, the more effective it will be. We obviously The biggest issue we now face is the fact that only monitor the data closely on that. around one-fifth of those who we ask to isolate comply The hon. Lady asked about lateral flow tests and with that, and we do not even know all the people who their sensitivity and specificity, which is an incredibly we would like to isolate. What does the Secretary of important question. The assessment of the tests we are State think of Sir John Bell’s suggestion to the Health using in Liverpool and now rolling out elsewhere was and Social Care Committee this morning that, instead made at Porton Down. We then tested 5,000 lateral flow of asking people to isolate, we should give them 48-hour tests alongside 5,000 polymerase chain reaction tests of lateral flow tests, and ask them to isolate only if they are the same people in the field, and we have a high degree positive? of confidence that they can find people who are infectious. In fact, the lateral flow tests have a lower false positivity Matt Hancock: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. issue than the PCR tests, so they are very effective for He is generous with his words. I also direct his warm the right uses, including mass population testing. words of gratitude to the vaccine’s taskforce, which has done so much work to ensure that we procure and The hon. Lady asked about isolation. Of course, secure the supplies of these vaccines, should they prove isolation is important. I would mention that we have safe as well as efficacious. On Sir John Bell’s comments, test and trace systems in place across the UK and it that option of testing people regularly—not if they are turns out that there are differences in how a successful a primary case and have the virus, but if they are a contact is measured. In England, we are much stricter contact—would not be open to us had we not secured in requiring contact to be a confirmed contact with the huge capacity for lateral-flow testing that we now somebody rather than just sending them a message, have in this country. I very much look to clinicians for which does count as contact in some of the devolved advice. Sir John Bell is a highly respected clinician and and local systems. It is really important that we measure expert in this area, and I am sure that everybody will the same thing, rather than trying to make divisions want to look closely at that issue. where divisions do not exist. Finally, it is vital that people isolate when they test Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): With positive or when they are asked to by NHS Test and three and a half weeks left of the current lockdown in Trace. I gently say again that the 20% figure is not England, what does the Secretary of State plan to particularly robust, because it implies that 80% of people change so that covid-19 does not get out of control are not doing anything to isolate. That is not what the again when restrictions are eased? He mentions the survey found. Nevertheless, we should all urge and pilot project of population testing in Liverpool, using require people to follow the rules. When someone tests newly developed lateral-flow tests, but there are not yet positive, they must isolate, and contacts must isolate. published sensitivity or specificity data for those tests. That is part of our social duty. What is the risk of false negative or false positive results? Has the UK National Screening Committee Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): It is indeed a relief been involved to help assess the risks, benefits, and costs to have some hope introduced into our discussions of such mass population testing? about covid. I am glad that the Secretary of State has I welcome the progress made on the Pfizer vaccine, announced that use of the rapid result lateral flow tests but it will take time before it is widely available, and, as will be expanded to new geographical areas. As the the Secretary of State said earlier, we do not yet know if roll-out continues, will he consider offering tests to 751 Covid-19 Update 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 752 specific groups and perhaps in particular close relatives Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham) (Lab): We know of care home residents who are desperate to make that those in the most deprived areas are around twice regular visits? as likely to die from covid-19 as those in the least deprived areas. We also know that the most deprived Matt Hancock: Yes, of course. I have seen some people in society are less likely to take up the vaccine heart-rending stories and I have met people who are and health services, so will the Secretary of State tell me affected by their inability to see their relatives in care what plans he has made to ensure a high take-up of any homes. The lateral flow tests that we are sending to covid-19 vaccine among the most deprived and if he directors of public health can be used for cases that they will consider setting an inequalities target for this? think are important locally, so they can use them for this purpose if they so choose. But we are also looking Matt Hancock: We are of course concerned about at a broader solution to this problem, which is a conundrum that and will put in enormous efforts to try to ensure we have discussed many times in this House: we need to that the take-up of the vaccine is as equal as possible. keep people in care homes safe but at the same time, The starting principle is that we will roll out the vaccine of course, we want to allow as much visiting as can be according to clinical need across the whole UK, across safe, which directly impacts on the health of many all four nations, working of course through the devolved residents. NHSs, which are going to be critical to actually delivering the vaccine in the devolved nations. But the procurement Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ of this vaccine is a UK programme—we have been Co-op): It would be very helpful to know how long the working very closely together—and in terms of the roll-out of the vaccinations will take once the Secretary roll-out among deprived communities and harder-to-reach of State gets the go-ahead. He has outlined a major communities, we have a particular emphasis on trying Government project that does not stop with the first to make sure that we get as equal a roll-out as possible. vaccinations, and with the mutations rife in Denmark The starting point must be clinical need. and elsewhere, it could affect children in future, so as part of his major project planning, how is he going to Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): Not a day make sure that we can logistically get this out through goes by when I do not hear from or try to help constituents the entire population if that does, sadly,become necessary? to see a loved one in a care home, and in so many cases we know that people have not been able to see their Matt Hancock: That is a very good question from the loved ones for months and months. Given that I am the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee—I would MP for one of the oldest constituencies in the country, expect nothing less. The critical answer to how long this North Norfolk, will my right hon. Friend give me his takes is that it depends on the speed of manufacture in absolute reassurance that we will have enough vaccinations the first instance. My goal, and the goal I have set the to support not only the vulnerable in my care homes, NHS, is to be able to roll this out as quickly as it can be but those amazing workers who have done so much manufactured. That manufacturing schedule is uncertain over the pandemic? because this is really hard stuff to make. We have got the Major Projects Authority in the Government involved Matt Hancock: Precisely for the reasons my hon. in many of the projects that we have built up in the Friend sets out, the top priority for this vaccine, according Department over the past nine months, because I respect to the clinical analysis, is the residents of care homes, its views and its ability to kick the tyres. The roll-out of along with the staff who work to look after them so the vaccine is a huge endeavour, but it builds on the well. They are in the very first categorisation because annual roll-out of the flu vaccine—it is just bigger and they are the most vulnerable to this disease and because needs to be done faster. a care home’snature as a generally communal environment means that they are particularly susceptible. As he Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): The past few months represents the oldest constituency in the country, I am have been a rollercoaster ride for families, businesses sure that that sort of prioritisation will mean that and public services as they have tried to make plans for should this come off and if the other hurdles are the future. The Secretary of State has rightly spoken of passed, a lot of vaccine will be heading to North Norfolk. the need for caution about the role of the vaccine, but I think what my constituents would like to hear from Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): Of course the him, if he is able to say, is when they can safely start to news about the Pfizer vaccine is extremely encouraging, consider family events and holidays and when businesses and we are all hoping that it is proved safe and effective, will be able to get back to something like business as and that it is approved by regulators. Let us suppose usual. that that is the case. Given that it is being manufactured in Belgium and that, as the Secretary of State has Matt Hancock: I understand the yearning for certainty. noted, it has to be kept at minus 70° at all times until All I can say to my hon. Friend, in honesty, is that I shortly before administration, what arrangements is he want us to get back to normal as quickly as possible, putting in place to ensure that there is absolutely no and yesterday’s news is a big step forward, but it is not delay of the supplies at the borders following the end of the only step. There are more steps that are needed. The the Brexit transition period? Any significant delay could scientists are now offering views on that sort of timetable, at worst result in precious supplies being damaged and but the Government’s view is that we must make this rendered useless, which could delay roll-out. happen as quickly as possible and be ready to roll out as fast as any safe vaccine can be manufactured, but we Matt Hancock: Of course we have looked at this risk, will not put safety at risk. That is a lodestar of the and I have confidence in our plans to be able to deliver programme and therefore we have to await the clinical the vaccine whatever the outcomes of the negotiations safety sign-off before we can take this to the next stage. over our future relationship with Europe. 753 Covid-19 Update 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 754

Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): around perinatal health ought to stay open everywhere. My right hon. Friend’s strategy is, as he keeps reporting We have had to delay some non-cancer, non-urgent to the House, to “suppress the virus” until a vaccine can treatment, but crucially, the best thing to do for this be deployed, but this is still beset by so many uncertainties. agenda that she champions is to try to keep the virus Who would have thought that mink in Denmark could under control and try to suppress the virus as much as throw a spanner into this situation? Is the tracing capability possible. and the ability to get people to isolate not absolutely crucial? Who should we hold accountable for whether Apsana Begum (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): A that is operationally effective as we come out of lockdown? happy birthday from me too, Mr Deputy Speaker. I say that because this is the only time we have got to As well as age and underlying conditions, the JCVI make this work, otherwise we will be in another lockdown. notes that early signals have been identified of other potential risk factors, including deprivation and ethnicity, Matt Hancock: Of course it is important that we but there have been enormous amounts of research and continue to build and strengthen the contact tracing evidence showing that black, Asian and minority groups system, as we are doing. My hon. Friend mentions the are at risk of this virus. Given their occupations, and uncertainties, and the issue of the virus that has spread given the overcrowded households that they back from mink to humans is one example of that. Of disproportionately represent, why have they not been course managing a pandemic is beset by uncertainty. included in the composition and order of priority of We still have uncertainty, for instance, over whether groups for vaccination? even the Pfizer vaccine will pass the safety hurdles that we very much hope it will in the coming weeks, but Matt Hancock: Before I forget, Mr Deputy Speaker, I managing through that uncertainty is a critical part of should say happy birthday to you as well. getting this right. The hon. Lady asks a very important question. The JCVI has looked at that issue and in its earlier iteration Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Secretary of its draft advice it considered the disproportionate of State for his statement. Is it not good to see the impact that the virus has had on BAME communities. nation regain at least a smile in relation to the potential Its conclusion, having looked at it in some detail, is that for a vaccine? That has to be good news for us all. Will the overwhelming indicator of mortality from coronavirus he outline how he intends to ensure that, unlike with the is age; and therefore it has based its recommendations flu vaccine, where there is a shortage in the nation and around age and, of course, the occupational groups that in my constituency, each region will receive the necessary directly support the most vulnerable—hence it has come amount of this vaccine and that rather than using up with the classification that it has. I respect the JCVI’s estimations, the health service will allocate on the basis independence and its analysis. of priority need and not postcode? Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): Happy Matt Hancock: Yes, absolutely; this is a UK programme birthday to you, Mr Deputy Speaker. and I have been working closely with my Northern In the past fortnight, 75 people in my constituency, Ireland counterpart, Robin Swann, who is doing a workers at a food processing factory, have tested positive, brilliant job in Northern Ireland, to make sure that we and that follows a similar outbreak at Cranswick Country get this roll-out as effective as possible right across the Foods, where 144 out of 333 tested positive just 10 days whole United Kingdom. ago. Lawrence Young at the University of Warwick has shown through research that the virus remains very Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): viable on cold surfaces. My question to the Secretary of Mr Deputy Speaker, happy birthday. State is simply: how often should the Health and Safety I know that my right hon. Friend is as concerned as I Executive be undertaking physical checks in such premises, am about the impact of lockdown, particularly the first and when should Members of Parliament be notified by lockdown, on new families with new babies—particularly local authorities that such an outbreak has happened? as seen in the excellent Parent-Infant Foundation report Matt Hancock: It is down to the local authority, in “Babies in Lockdown” and the awful news from Ofsted the first instance, to notify a Member of Parliament, that some babies have been harmed more than you although often, if an issue is very significant, we in the would expect during that period of time, potentially as Department will also work with the local Member of a result of poor mental health and so on. So can my Parliament. The Health and Safety Executive takes a right hon. Friend tell us what exactly he is doing to risk-based approach, so it is not possible to give a ensure that, during the current lockdown, new families definitive answer about how often it should visit; it are being provided with the level of support, from depends on the level of the risk. partners and statutory services, that they need to help them through? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before I call Jacob Young, I would just like to say thanks for all the Matt Hancock: My right hon. Friend is right to raise birthday wishes. I absolve anybody else from saying that issue, and we all know how close it is to her heart. happy birthday to me. I am coming to terms with the In the first lockdown, many NHS services were suspended, fact that The Times added a year to my age. It is bad partly because of the uncertainty that we have just been enough being the age I am, I do assure you, but none talking about. We know far more about the virus and the less. how to manage it the second time round, and our goal is that all NHS services stay open. That has not proved Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): Last week, I spoke to possible in the areas of the country where there is the care providers in Redcar and Cleveland who outlined highest prevalence, but all maternity services and services that, when it comes to testing in care homes, two groups 755 Covid-19 Update 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 756 of people are still missed out: first, agency workers, who is that only when we can assess and monitor the epidemic- go to and from care home to care home, currently fall modifying effects of any vaccine—not only how much it outside the weekly testing programme; and secondly, protects an individual but how much it stops family members of those who live in care homes. If we transmission—can we make further judgments about can roll out testing for those people, they could be the non-pharmaceutical interventions, such as social treated as care workers and enabled to visit their loved distancing rules, that we have in place. We will keep that ones again. Will the Secretary of State urgently address under review and monitor it extremely carefully. these two gaps in our testing programme, to help lift some hardship from the most vulnerable in our society? Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on what he has done to secure Matt Hancock: The answer is yes, and I will add a access to supplies of what we hope will be approved third: visitors to care homes. I would like the testing vaccines very soon. He has done a fantastic job on that, regime to work for those people, to make visiting easier. as he has on the expansion of testing and the 15-minute When it comes to agency workers, we want to stop tests. However, may I take him back to the issue of altogether people working in more than one care home, testing in the aviation sector? Prior to the pandemic, we because that risks transmission. When it comes to carers had the biggest and most important aviation sector in who are unpaid but who go in regularly, we want to find Europe. Since the pandemic, that sector has collapsed, a way for them to be added to the regular testing regime. yet last week Lord Bethell told the House of Lords that the chief medical officer believes that the aviation sector Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): There was is a low priority for testing. It may be a low priority in nothing in the Secretary of State’s statement about VAT his eyes, but it is economically vital to us. I urge my on personal protective equipment, so will he update the right hon. Friend to make sure that those 15-minute House on what discussions he has had with the Treasury tests are made available to the aviation sector at the about scrapping the mask tax? earliest opportunity. Matt Hancock: That is a matter for the Treasury, as Matt Hancock: The expansion of testing capacity the hon. Lady indicates. The truth is that we have made obviously opens up the number of different uses to PPE freely available to health and social care and other which it can be put. We are working closely with the public services until the end of this financial year. aviation industry—my right hon. Friend the Secretary Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): of State for Transport is leading those discussions, but I The weekend press carried briefing of a Government am heavily involved in them—and I hope we can make intention to distribute vitamin D to care homes and some progress soon. other vulnerable groups. If that is true, I congratulate the Secretary of State on this decisive, low-cost, zero-risk, Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green) [V]: A potentially highly effective action. If it is true, will he constituent’s father is in a care home. He is non-verbal tell us the dosages proposed, how quickly it will happen and relies on touch to communicate. She says: “I have not been able to hug my dad for over eight months. I and whether the target groups include ethnic minorities? … Is his Department reviewing and considering the Spanish have not been able to hold his hand. I have not been able to take his youngest grandchild to meet him.” trials, with a view to the use of calcifediol in a clinical context? Eight months into this crisis, will the Secretary of State urgently set out the scope of his pilot keyworker-status Matt Hancock: This is something that we are working scheme, accelerate its implementation and tell us when a hard on in the Department. I am not yet in a position to combination of regular rapid testing and personal protective answer all those questions, except to say that I have equipment will allow my constituent to safely hold her looked at the results of the Spanish trial that my right dad’s hand again and put an end to this slow torture? hon. Friend mentions, not least because he sent me those results with some enthusiasm. We are looking at Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady puts the point very this very closely. movingly. The Minister for Care is leading on this issue with great compassion and I hope that we can make Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): Before some progress soon. I ask my question, I pay tribute to the brave staff of the Royal Free Hospital in my constituency, who featured Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con): The news of a in “Hospital” last night on BBC 2, for all their hard vaccine is very welcome, but it comes just as Wales is work during the pandemic. I understand that, when the leaving its firebreak and England has entered its own vaccine is approved, the Government will distribute it lockdown. This kind of diversion has caused confusion according to who needs it most. However, before that and some anxiety, so will my right hon. Friend confirm point, will there be Government restrictions on meetings that the vaccine will be available in all parts of the between those who have been vaccinated and those who Union? Does he agree that it is the action that the UK have not? When does the Secretary of State think the Government have taken on things such as the pre-purchase vaccination will be available for the whole of the UK? of doses that has given us this access? Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady tempts me, but I will Matt Hancock: There is absolutely no doubt that we resist the temptation. We do not know when this vaccine have worked together as a United Kingdom to put will be ready, because I will not allow it to be rolled out ourselves in a strong position when it comes to access to before it is clinically safe—and anyway, the independent the Pfizer vaccine, and we have worked together to regulator would not license it before it is clinically safe. ensure that, should it come off, the Oxford-AstraZeneca She asked how we will treat people who have been vaccine will be available across all parts of this United vaccinated and those who have not been. The problem Kingdom. I pay tribute to the work that I anticipate the 757 Covid-19 Update 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 758

[Matt Hancock] to the parents and carers of those children, given that he has just confirmed that they will not receive the NHS in Wales will be doing to deliver the shots into vaccine? arms across Wales, but it is a UK-wide programme and is yet another example of why the UK is so strong when Matt Hancock: Of course, we will continue to work it works together. on a clinically-led basis with everybody across the country who needs support. The vaccines were not trialled on Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The Secretary children, and it would absolutely be a clinical decision of State is aware that priests have been unable to as to how to take this matter forward. I am very glad administer the sacrament to those dying in care homes that the hon. Lady has had the opportunity to talk to and rabbis have been unable to secure a minyan in order the deputy chief medical officer, Jenny Harries, who to say the Kaddish. How will his Government now try leads on shielding policy. It is a very important and very to ensure they recognise that a person’s spiritual needs sensitive subject. are critical for their mental health and that this is just as important for people’s physical health? Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): The amended graphs used to justify the lockdown now show Matt Hancock: Of course we recognise exactly that, a 40% reduction in the death rate in the upper quartile and the hon. Gentleman puts it well. Ministers are as against their first presentation, so the NHS would working with faith leaders on how we can come to an have coped, wouldn’t it? arrangement, as soon as possible, to allow both communal prayer, which was discussed in the House as we brought Matt Hancock: No. in the regulations relating to the lockdown, and all Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) other aspects of nurturing worship. (Lab): Mid Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust now has over 280 covid patients. That is more than 70% higher Lia Nici (Great Grimsby) (Con): Diana, Princess of than in April, and it has fewer staff in place to cope. It Wales Hospital in Grimsby currently has twice as many cannot use the Harrogate Nightingale, because there covid patients in intensive care units as we had at the are no spare staff to send there. The staff are doing an height of the previous lockdown. Does my right hon. amazing job, but I am really worried about the pressure Friend agree that, despite the very good news regarding they are under. Will the Secretary of State work urgently vaccines, it is essential that people in England adhere to with Yorkshire hospitals to get them more support and the lockdown rules so that we can get the reproduction more staff in place over the next couple of weeks, when rate down and reopen our businesses as quickly as possible? the pressure is likely to be greatest? Matt Hancock: Yes, my hon. Friend puts it absolutely Matt Hancock: Yes, of course. We are working with right, and that is the reason for the caution we in hospitals across Yorkshire and across the whole country Government are showing. There is understandable to try to make sure that we have the most capacity excitement at the news of the vaccine, but we are available. It is true that the numbers going into hospitals cautious, because the single most important thing is across Yorkshire continue to be far too high, and there that, until we have a vaccine—and we do not have a is an awful lot of work we need to do, but the most vaccine yet—people have to follow the rules in order to important thing is that we get this virus under control in keep people safe. That is true across Grimsby and the order to bring that number of admissions down. whole country. I know that the team at the hospital in Grimsby are working incredibly hard in difficult James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con): I join others circumstances, and it is tougher in Grimsby this second in congratulating my right hon. Friend, my constituency time than it was the first time around. I pay tribute to neighbour, on ensuring that our country has its share of and thank them. The best thing we can all do to support this very promising RNA vaccine. However, on the them is to follow the rules, do our best and play our part subject of the previous question and capacity, is not one to reduce the transmission of this disease. of the key reasons for prioritising health and social care staff not just that we prioritise those who are protecting Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) us, but that by ensuring they are first in line for the (SNP) [V]: For the vaccine to be effective, widespread vaccine, should it come forward and be proved safe, we take-up is required. Yesterday, the Prime Minister said a will help to boost hospital capacity at a crucial time of strategy to counter the utterly ridiculous and extremely the year? dangerous anti-vaxxer misinformation was to hope people will not listen to those types of arguments. Can the Matt Hancock: Yes, that is a really important point. Health Secretary assure the House that his Department Part of the challenge of, and the reason for, a second is working on a more detailed strategy than the Prime lockdown was NHS capacity. The more we protect Minister to counter this misinformation? those who work in the NHS, the fewer are unavailable to work, precisely as the right hon. Member for Normanton, Matt Hancock: Yes. Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) said, and the more capacity we have in our NHS. Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab) [V]: The Secretary of State’s update is very welcome news for the Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): As shielding community, and I hope they will be among families begin to dare to hope in the possibility of a the first to receive the vaccine. At my meeting with vaccine, it is vital that we prioritise mental health resilience the deputy chief medical officer last week, she informed and confidence in learning among our young people. me that 15,000 children are still being asked to shield Outdoor education centres in Cumbria and across the this time around. What does the Secretary of State say country are uniquely equipped and able to help with 759 Covid-19 Update 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 760 just that, yet most of those centres face closure, essentially Matt Hancock: Absolutely. The armed services of because the Government advice remains against residential this country have played an amazing role during the school visits, even though outdoor education centres pandemic. I have talked about a war against a virus, in are just as covid-safe as schools. Would the Secretary of which we are all on the same side. The military have State agree to work with the Department for Education done and are doing their bit, and there is a lot more that to try to change that advice and to make sure outdoor we will need from them in the future. They are involved education centres remain open? in the mass testing and the vaccine roll-out, and I am very grateful for their support. Matt Hancock: I am very happy to look at that matter with my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary. Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): We have learned It is, of course, a Department for Education lead, but I today that mass testing of students is to take place in am happy to do my bit. order to enable them to return home for Christmas, which will be widely welcomed. We have a very large Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I warmly number of students in Leeds. Will the Secretary of State congratulate my right hon. Friend on the work that he tell the House whether that testing is going to be handled has done on securing the vaccine. May I just bring the by the universities themselves or by the excellent public discussion back to the here and now, since, as he quite health team in Leeds that is led by Victoria Eaton? How rightly says, there is a long way to go on that? Something will it dovetail with any roll-out of mass testing to that has been slightly overlooked in his statement is his Leeds in due course, so that all the bits of the system fit announcement of the provision of 10% of lateral flow together? tests to local areas, which is very important. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for doing an incredible Matt Hancock: The right hon. Gentleman asks a job in keeping me and other Leeds MPs informed as characteristically critical question and puts his finger the crisis has moved forwards,but will he tell me whether the on a vital logistical point. We are planning to help lateral flow tests will have an impact on the tiering students to get home safely with the assistance of mass system? The numbers in Leeds are still exceptionally testing. In places such as Leeds, mass testing is being high, although hopefully they will change during the made available to the directors of public health. Of lockdown. Is there going to be some change in how the course, these things must be dovetailed. The universities tiering system works? If my right hon. Friend does not will be in the lead on the mass testing of students, but have the answers now, perhaps he could write to me at this process, by its nature, will absolutely draw on the a later stage, once he has given the matter some public health knowledge and expertise of the local consideration. council. Although each of us has become something of Matt Hancock: I will write to my right hon. Friend a public health expert over the past 11 months, the on exactly this matter. Of course, the more that we can professional support from the public health team in the do to get the infection rates down during lockdown, the council will be critical to this task. easier it will be to get out of lockdown, and places can get out in lower tiers. Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con): I welcome my right hon Friend’s announcement on the roll-out of Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): mass testing for NHS staff and congratulate him on Have the bumps from me too, Mr Deputy Speaker. securing so many doses of the vaccine. It is wonderful It is good to hear some good news about the vaccine news that the efficacy of the first of these vaccines on the way, and hopefully about vitamin D. Earlier in seems to be so very high. I have read in newspapers over the pandemic, people with non-covid health issues were the past month countless pundits telling me that there told not to suffer in silence. Now we hear that non-elective would be no vaccine and that the right thing to do surgeries are being cancelled; I think all are off at the would be to let the virus rip and try to protect a few Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham. What is the vulnerable people. Does this not show that it is right to advice now? If it is the wrong advice, could this mean listen to the scientists and the real experts rather than the loss of lives? pundits who would have put millions of people’s lives at risk? Matt Hancock: We want as little impact on the rest of NHS activity as possible. Of course, we are having to Matt Hancock: My hon. Friend feels strongly about take that action in some high-prevalence areas. That this point. That is understandable, because the strategy decision takes into account local circumstances; it is not that we have pursued has been to suppress the virus a blanket, national decision as it was in March. The while we work on the vaccine. We are not there yet, but most important thing that we can all do to keep our this progress towards a vaccine demonstrates why we NHS open for non-covid treatment is to abide by the followed the strategy of protecting life even though we rules and have that lockdown in place. know that there are challenging consequences for businesses and other parts of society. We have done so because we Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): I pay tribute to have a good degree of confidence that a vaccine will my right hon. Friend for securing the vaccine. That come and will make a significant contribution to solving is a ray of hope for us all. I look forward to hearing this problem without the huge risk of its impact on more about the developments in the coming weeks and taking people’s lives, especially the most vulnerable, months. Will he join me in paying tribute to the military, that would be incurred if we did not suppress the virus. who have worked tirelessly to deploy the mass testing of the vaccine, and update the House on his plans for Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con) [V]: It is fantastic the military to be used with regard to the vaccine in the news that 10,000 rapid lateral flow tests will be going to coming months? Dudley this week and that about 30,000 more will be in 761 Covid-19 Update 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 762

[Mike Wood] Matt Hancock: There are of course record numbers of staff in the NHS. There has been an increase of over use locally subsequently. What guidance will be issued 13,000 nurses, for instance, in the past year, and we have to directors of public health on how those rapid tests the returners who have come back into the NHS. The should be targeted? right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) asked this question and I Matt Hancock: Guidance will be given and we are did not answer it, so I will now answer them both engaging directly with directors of public health. I will together.The Nightingale hospitals are incredibly important ensure that the teams from Stoke and Liverpool, who as additional surge capacity, but part of that surge have been piloting this, will talk to other directors of involves the staff in the NHS having themselves each to public health, including in Dudley. We are not putting look after a higher proportion of patients. That surge is stringent rules around the use of these tests, because we not something we want to put in place unless we have want directors of public health to use them in ways in to, so having the Nightingales there is important. They which they think will work and are important locally can be used—in fact, the Manchester Nightingale currently and then to feed back on the effectiveness of their use so has patients in it—but it is better both for patients and that we can keep learning about the roll-out. We are staff if people can be treated in the existing hospitals, sending the tests out with guidelines and instructions even as we expand the number of staff that are available. on how to use them, as well as logistics, but also saying to directors of public health, “Use your professional Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) expertise and tell us how you did it, what worked and [V]: Following the rise in the real living wage, will the what did not and we can all learn from each other.” Government now do the right thing for care workers, as well as for UK Government workers on outsourced Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab) [V]: facilities management contracts, all of whom have worked My constituent Kellie Shiers is an emergency ambulance throughout the pandemic to make workplaces safe, and care assistant with North West Ambulance Service. In ensure that they are paid the real living wage? 2015 she was diagnosed with breast cancer. After treatment she went into remission and went back to work. During Matt Hancock: I am absolutely delighted that the the pandemic she chose to continue to work on the national living wage, which we introduced, now means frontline despite her medical history.Her yearly check-up that there has been a sharp rise in the pay of our and mammogram did not happen in April and in early lowest-paid staff right across the UK. I think that is October she was told that not only had her cancer something this whole House can get behind. It is true in returned but it has now spread into her bones. Kellie social care, as the hon. Gentleman mentions, and in has asked to meet the Secretary of State to discuss the other professions, and I am really proud to have played situation affecting her and thousands of others, but we a part in bringing it about. have not had a reply to my letter sent three weeks ago. Will the Secretary of State agree to that request? Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): My right hon. Friend well understands the importance of Matt Hancock: Yes, of course I will. It is an incredibly families being able to see each other this Christmas at important subject. It underlines the fact that by controlling the end of a very difficult year, and he understands the the virus and taking action to suppress it, we allow the lengths that people will inevitably go to in order to be other activity that the NHS needs to do, which is very able to see families and loved ones this Christmas. important for the precise reasons that the hon. Lady Without making any predictions about what the situation sets out. I would be very happy to meet her and her will be at the end of the year, can he at least confirm constituent, listen directly to her experience and see today that the intention on the part of this Government what we can do to help. is to work with the devolved Administrations so that we have one set of rules covering the whole United Kingdom, James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): Lockdown 2 and, for the first time during this pandemic, a set of has been very divisive across the UK, not least in rules that are clear, consistent and fair right across Bracknell. Are there any circumstances in which my the UK? right hon. Friend might consider early easing of restrictions, perhaps in low-infection areas? Matt Hancock: I really hope that the talks that are under way can come to a set of principles and a set of Matt Hancock: We always keep the data under review rules across the UK for Christmas. So many people and we are always looking at what we can do. Our goal travel across the UK, including to and from Wales, over is to get out of this lockdown into the tiered system and the Christmas period, even more so than in the rest of we are focused on that and on getting the numbers the year, and I hope that we can bring this to fruition. down. Even in Bracknell, where for so long the rate of infection was incredibly low, we have seen an increase in Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): Last week that rate of infection and it is important to get it under the Prime Minister said that not enough people are control in Bracknell, as it is elsewhere in the country. self-isolating when asked to. Does the Secretary of State accept that this might be because those traced by the Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab) [V]: Because of the covid app are not entitled to the same financial support growing number of covid patients being treated in as if they receive a phone call? hospital, my local NHS would like to use the Exeter Nightingale hospital for in-patient care, but it does not Matt Hancock: We are working on ways to ensure currently have the staff for it to do so. What exactly is that those who are traced through the app also get the purpose of the Nightingale hospitals when there are support. The challenge is that the app is, by its nature, not the doctors and nurses to staff them? and by the design principles that our friends and colleagues 763 Covid-19 Update 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 764 in the tech industry insisted on, anonymous. Therefore, prospect is AstraZeneca. It would be wonderful to hear translating an anonymous system on the app into an the same sort of results soon for AstraZeneca that we identified payment is a challenging process that we are heard from Pfizer yesterday. After that, it is next summer working through. before the next vaccine candidate comes on stream, so the focus of the roll-out plan at the moment is on Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP): I thank the delivering the Pfizer and AstraZeneca projects if they Secretary of State for his efforts with regard to a vaccine pass the safety test. and for his commitment on equal distribution throughout the Union. Nurses and care workers in my constituency Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) are daily on the frontline in the fight against covid, (Con): My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to putting themselves and their families at increased risk prioritise those working in the health sector for the while trying to save and protect us and the NHS. They roll-out of the vaccine, but will he also consider the too will play a key role in the administering of a vaccine important role that those working in the teaching profession in the very near future. Does the Secretary of State and in childcare play? Their being in work enables agree that the pay nurses receive falls short of what it children to be in school or in care and therefore allows ought to be, given the skilled and responsible nature of their parents to be economically active. the role, and that a pay rise is due for UK nurses? Matt Hancock: Of course I understand the importance Matt Hancock: I understand the question that the of that, hence we protected education and kept schools hon. Lady asks on behalf of her constituents. I pay open as much as possible through this second peak. I tribute to my opposite number in Northern Ireland, pay tribute to schools, which have, in, very large part, Robin Swann, and because this is a devolved matter, I stayed open. Some children have had to go home, and hope that she will understand if I allow him the discretion we are looking to see how we can use testing to reduce to provide an answer to that question, rather than to the need for children in bubbles to have to isolate if an answer on his behalf. index case has tested positive in a school. Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): Students Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con) [V]: My and their families across the country will be very pleased right hon. Friend probably saw the BBC news last night with the news that students are to be offered covid tests featuring the Royal Derby Hospital where staff were as early as 30 November to ensure that they can go back saying that the numbers that were in hospital now were for Christmas. Subsequent to the Secretary of State’s higher than in the peak earlier this year and that they answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds were exhausted but would keep going. Is there any Central (Hilary Benn), may I ask whether similar opportunity for the Nightingale staff, who are perhaps arrangements will be put in place in January, so that on standby, to come in and assist so that some of these students can then return to study in the new year? hard-pressed doctors and nurses could have slightly more time off so that they would not be quite so Matt Hancock: One step at a time. exhausted? Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con) [V]: I welcome the Matt Hancock: I thank staff at the Royal Derby for roll-out of mass testing and the vaccine update. It is the work that they are doing. These are difficult very positive news and offers the hope that the country circumstances. One of the reasons why we brought in needs to get back to normality as quickly as possible. measures that I know are difficult was to protect the Given the unique challenges of infection control in NHS from the increase in the number of cases, which in university cities, which my right hon. Friend has touched Derby, as my hon. Friend says, is now higher than in the on already, will the wider roll-out of mass testing be first peak. Unfortunately, the solution that she proposes available across university cities such as York for the is in fact the other way around: the NHS Nightingales whole population? provide extra space and extra capacity, but we need to Matt Hancock: Yes, the roll-out and the 10% of stretch the existing workforce to use them—to staff population per week availability of lateral flow tests is them—if they are needed. That is another reason to available to directors of public health right across the take the measures that we have taken in order to protect country. If that has not already been organised with the NHS. York, I urge the director of public health in York to Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): Penblwydd hapus, come forward and work with the team to make that Mr Deputy Speaker. happen. A number of concerns have been raised today about Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The Secretary of State staffing in the NHS, so may I press the Secretary of recognised in his statement that the task of delivering State to commit to ensuring that cancer professionals 40 million doses will be vast, and he has also said that are not redeployed away from cancer treatment and he has orders for 300 million further doses. How far care, so that they can beat the backlog rather than away are we from those further doses coming on board, building it even further? and does not that make that a huge task to undertake at a local level? How is local government involved in Matt Hancock: Yes, that is absolutely our goal—to co-ordinating this roll-out? keep all cancer treatment going during this second phase. So far, that has been successful everywhere; even Matt Hancock: Yes, it will be a huge task. The NHS is where hospitals have had to postpone non-urgent activity, leading on it, and of course the NHS reaches all parts they have not postponed cancer treatment. This is incredibly of this country. As for the flow of the future doses that important to me personally, and I strongly support the we have secured, the only one that is in immediate recommendation that the hon. Lady sets out. 765 Covid-19 Update 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Update 766

Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): I join my Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con): I really right hon. Friend in praising the work of the vaccine welcome today’s news that we are now much closer to taskforce in securing so much of this first encouraging the roll-out of vaccines, but, as of today, the Royal vaccine and the work it has done to have a good portfolio. Stoke University Hospital in my constituency has more Let me turn to the joint inquiry of the Science and than double the number of covid patients than during Technology Committee and the Health and Social Care the first peak, and that is combined with record-high Committee, which met this morning. We considered test levels of covid-related staff absence. That is of concern and trace, but it seems to me that the third part—the to me, fellow MPs in Stoke-on-Trent and my hon. isolation part—is key. This 20% figure has been bandied Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Aaron about, but Baroness Harding was able to give us a Bell). Will the Secretary of State join me in praising the preliminary figure of 54% for the people who manage heroic efforts of our NHS staff in Stoke-on-Trent and to observe staying at home. Does my right hon. Friend help us to deal with the situation until such time as it is agree that we need more data about this? We need to improved by the roll-out of vaccines? understand how many people are staying at home—I Matt Hancock: Yes. I know Stoke-on-Trent’s hospital realise it is not completely binary—but also how that and I think that the people who work there do a varies between people who have positive tests and people brilliant job. They are a great team that works so closely who have been asked to isolate. Like my right hon. and well for the people of Stoke-on-Trent and, indeed, Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Newcastle-under-Lyme. Stoke has got an outbreak under Hunt), the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, control a couple of times in this virus. In fact, it had a may I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to second peak in the summer, which it got under control, look at Sir John Bell’s suggestion that people who are so this is really the third peak in Stoke. Stoke-on-Trent merely contacts could be released from quarantine earlier City Council worked closely with us on the early roll-out through rapid testing? of mass testing in a pilot even before Liverpool. I thank Matt Hancock: I am happy to look at all those everybody at the Royal Stoke for all their hard work constructive suggestions. Maybe I can also take this and I urge everyone in Stoke and across the country to opportunity to put on the record my thanks to the respect social distancing and follow the rules, because vaccine taskforce and to Kate Bingham personally for that is the best way to support our NHS. the leadership that they have shown in being able to Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) procure the 340 million doses that they have achieved—I (LD) [V]: Clearly, I represent a vast and extremely know that the whole country is grateful for the 40 million remote constituency in which there are groups of elderly doses of the Pfizer vaccine in particular—and the work people who are potentially vulnerable to covid-19. When that they have done. the Secretary of State talks to the Scottish Government, Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) [V]: will he make sure that such people are reached out to What update can the Secretary of State give the House with the vaccine? It would be too bad if one part of on the new strain of coronavirus identified in mink in Scotland were to lose out against another as it was Denmark? Aside from the travel restrictions now in rolled out. place from Denmark, what steps are being taken to stop Matt Hancock: Yes. Our principle is to roll out the any new outbreak? vaccine across the whole of the UK according to clinical Matt Hancock: The hon. Lady raises an incredibly need, and that is what we should do. important point. We acted very fast, including working Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con): Teesside Dementia with the Scottish Government and the other devolved Link Services is an amazing charity run by some of the Governments, to take the action that we did at the end most inspiring people I have ever met. It delivers support of last week. We are concerned about this outbreak. I to families and individuals dealing with dementia. It am concerned about the fact that this virus has become has told me of some of the pain suffered by many in our virulent across the mink population, and I think that care homes who are unable to see loved ones. I welcome there is an international case, on public health grounds, the recent guidance and I ask my right hon. Friend to for addressing the question of mink farming, which we continue to do everything he can to ensure that we banned in the UK two decades ago. It was due to come safely and meaningfully reunite families. to an end in Europe in 2023 anyway. People will have their own views on animal welfare grounds—I certainly Matt Hancock: I am a fan of new technology—I am have mine—but clearly, on global public health grounds, not going to deny that—because it can help to improve there is a case for doing everything we can to stop the people’s lives, and this is one example. New technology, retransmission of this virus into an animal population such as testing technology and quite intricate biochemistry, and then back again, which can lead to the sorts of will help to enable people to see their loved ones in care mutations that we have seen. We will do everything we homes. I cannot think of a better example of how new can to keep people safe. technology can really help to improve people’s lives. I If you will indulge me, Mr Deputy Speaker, I should cannot wait to see that happen. also put on the record my thanks to and admiration of the Government of Denmark, who have also Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I thank the responded to this very quickly. Our actions should in no Secretary of State for his statement today and for way be interpreted as a criticism of the Danish Government, answering the questions of 55 Members of Parliament. who have acted very fast; it is a painful economic We will move on to the ten-minute rule motion, and decision that they have taken very swiftly to cull their then we will suspend for three minutes. mink population. We are merely acting to keep this Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, country safe. 4 June). 767 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Jet Skis (Licensing) 768

Jet Skis (Licensing) number of organisations are already doing to enhance the safety and encourage the responsible use of jet skis, Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order including the RYApersonal watercraft proficiency course, No. 23) a guide on effective management schemes, advice on signage and safety videos in collaboration with the 2.48 pm Royal National Lifeboat Institution. He says that improved Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): I beg to move, communication and education will reduce incidents and That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish a system of I am sure he is correct. licensing for drivers of jet skis; to create the offence of driving a There are also considerations about the liberty of all jet ski without a licence; and for connected purposes. to use our waters—our freedom of the seas, which is Jet skis, or otherwise motorised personal watercraft, very dear to many people. However, this Bill does not are powerful machines of up to 300 hp, which can lead aim for a general system of regulation of all marine to speeds of up to 40 mph on water. They are easy to leisure use. It is to address the special case of jet skis. tow and to launch from any beach. Compared with other watercraft, they are not expensive and their use Tragically,this summer,we again had fatalities associated has been growing for many years. I have been told that, with jet skis on the shores of Gwynedd. There were this year, sales of jet skis in my constituency and in deaths elsewhere, in constituencies represented by the Gwynedd are up by 30%. supporters of the Bill, and there were incidents of injury. Many hon. Members will have heard reports and Hon. Members may be surprised that in the UK, seen pictures of jet skis being driven at speed close to anyone can use a jet ski. No licence is required. There is bathing beaches, sometimes even where children were no compulsory training or test of competence. The swimming, or craft being driven at high speed even recommended lower age limit is 12 years. Local authorities where there are speed limits, accidental collisions with and other bodies have limited regulatory powers, such boats and near misses, the disturbing of people fishing as setting speed limits in some areas and specifying from the shore, such as at Doc Fictoria in my home launching areas, but enforcement is difficult and can be town of Caernarfon, and incidents of jet ski drivers expensive in a time of cuts. intruding into nature reserves. There have been incidents In my opinion and that of many boat owners, local of aggressive and threatening use. Only this morning, I residents and people who just want to use our wonderful was sent a picture of a jet ski on the Menai Straits beaches in peace, local byelaws and speed limits within performing a tight circle around a lone kayaker. yellow buoys are not sufficient. In the words of a local Just one other example will suffice. Yesterday I received beach warden who spoke to me this summer: a video of an incident on 21 September, from someone I “I can tell them till I’m blue in the face not to come close to the will not name, for reasons that will become obvious. bathers, but there’s nothing I can do to stop them”. The video is just 10 seconds long and it is a shame, with My own local authority, which has led the way on all these screens around us, that I cannot play it here in this matter, passed a motion last month calling for the Chamber for those 10 seconds. The person who proper regulation of the use of jet skis. The police and took it was on what looks to me like a paddleboard a crime commissioner for North Wales, Mr Arfon Jones, little outside the yellow buoy area. He describes the has voiced his support. Chief Inspector Mark Armstrong circumstances like this: of North Wales police told me: “The jet skier was in a party of people, including a couple of “Bob blwyddyn yn ardal Gwynedd a Môn rydan ni yn gweld youths, who were all taking turns on the jet ski. They were pulling achosion o bobl yn cael eu lladd neu eu brifo yn arw ar ôl high speed stunts within the yellow buoy restriction zone. There digwyddiadau tebyg. Every year, in Gwynedd and Anglesey, we was nearly an accident with some young swimmers.” see cases where people have been killed or seriously injured as a consequence of incidents like this.” The video, taken from the paddleboard, then shows the jet ski driver, a burly man in his forties, driving towards Current regulatory measures are useful but cannot be it at increasing speed and, crucially, outside the yellow a substitute for what is really needed, and that is a buoy area. As he gets near, he swerves towards it, proper licensing system, with training and a test of looking directly at the camera and shouting something competence, and proportionate enforcement, properly inaudible, which is probably unrepeatable in this Chamber. funded. Antisocial and, less commonly, the dangerous He then turns away, causing a heavy wake, and makes use of jet skis, sometimes associated with prior alcohol off at speed, back towards the shore and back towards consumption, has long been a problem. This year though, the yellow buoy area. anecdotally at least, the problems seem to have got much worse than usual. Perhaps because of covid more The action is clearly very dangerous and could have people have taken their holidays in the UK, and their jet resulted, had he misjudged his speed or direction, in a skis are easy to tow and easy to launch, but this is not a direct injury, possibly the need for rescue or even a short-term problem. My predecessor, now Lord Dafydd drowning. The paddleboarder, in his email to me, adds: Wigley, campaigned for legislation after a tragic jet ski “When the video was shared on a local Facebook page, others accident in our Caernarfon constituency more than a commented that they had left the beach early due to the noise and generation ago. It is significant that the current House irritation.” of Commons Library paper on jet skis dates from 2010. That last point is particularly significant in Wales and I am sure that the majority of jet ski users are both other tourist areas which attract people specifically responsible and law abiding. There are also responsible because we offer peace and quiet to enjoy our extraordinary commercial users, who quite reasonably do not want to natural environment. Tourism accounts for up to a be burdened with regulation. Proper quality training is third of our economy in some areas. available, for example from the Royal Yachting Association. The UK is the only state in Europe without a licensing I am grateful to Mr Howard Pidding from the RYA for system. There is a long list of other countries around his briefing on this matter. He details the work that a the world that control their use. The Department for 769 Jet Skis (Licensing) 10 NOVEMBER 2020 770

[Hywel Williams] Parliamentary Constituencies Bill Transport proposes to bring forward a consultation on Consideration of Lords amendments draft legislation that will consider bringing personal watercraft within the definition of a ship for the purposes Clause 1 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. I am not against that and it would possibly catch the burly gentleman I REPORTS OF THE BOUNDARY COMMISSIONS described earlier. It might deter some irresponsible users, but I believe it is not a substitute for proper regulation. 3.2 pm Lawmaking is a long slow grind, even without Brexit and covid clogging up the works, but the overwhelming The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob support I have had on jet skis, with not a single person Rees-Mogg): I beg to move, That this House disagrees against, will, I hope, persuade the Government to act with Lords amendment 1. with a proper licensing system. It cannot come too soon. Mr Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss: Question put and agreed to. Lords amendment 2, and Government motion to Ordered, disagree. That Hywel Williams, Liz Saville Roberts, Ben Lake, Lords amendments 3 to 5. Sir Roger Gale, Geraint Davies, Paul Maynard, Jim Shannon, Tim Farron, Pete Wishart, Sir David Amess Lords amendment 6, and Government motion to and Claire Hanna present the Bill. disagree. Hywel Williams accordingly presented the Bill. Lords amendment 7, and Government motion to disagree. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 5 February, and to be printed (Bill 209). Lords amendment 8, and Government motion to disagree. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): We will now suspend for three minutes. If we can please have sanitisers Mr Rees-Mogg: The Government’s commitment to on the Dispatch Boxes during that period of time. ensure that the House has updated and equal parliamentary Thank you. Please leave with caution. constituencies has been reflected in the tenacity of my hon. Friend the Minister for the Constitution and 2.58 pm Devolution. I apologise to the House that I am a mere stand-in for her today, because her efforts to legislate to Sitting suspended. that effect have been unstinting throughout this Parliament.

PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES BILL Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Does (PROGRAMME) (NO. 2) my right hon. Friend think it appropriate just to take this moment to send our best wishes to the Minister, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing our hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North (Chloe Order No. 83A(7)), Smith), who is suffering very bad ill health at this That the following provisions shall apply to the Parliamentary moment? Constituencies Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 2 June 2020 (Parliamentary Constituencies Bill (Programme)): Mr Rees-Mogg: Yes; my hon. Friend has momentarily Consideration of Lords Amendments pre-empted me, because that is exactly what I was about (1) Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall to do. The whole House has noted our hon. Friend’s (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion three hours after their commencement. positive approach to the challenge that prevents her from being here today. She is a wonderfully popular and Subsequent stages singularly effective Minister, and I know that Members (2) Any further Message from the Lords may be considered across the House wish her the speediest of recoveries. forthwith without any Question being put. None the less, she is continuing to work very hard, and I (3) The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords have therefore had the opportunity to discuss the Bill shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion with her. I am pleased to report to the House that she is one hour after their commencement.— (Maria Caulfield.) delighted, as am I, that the principle of updated and Question agreed to. equal constituencies is shared by both Houses and across parties. That is in no small part down to the efforts of my noble Friends Lord True and Baroness Scott of Bybrook, and I extend our thanks for their sterling efforts in taking the Bill through the other place. It is of course right that this short but important Bill has enjoyed extensive debate and scrutiny in both Houses, and we will always welcome the thoughts of their lordships, but it is important to remember that this is a Commons Bill about the composition of the House of Commons based on the mandate of the elected Government. This is an area in which I have taken a great interest during my years as a Member of Parliament, so it is with a spirit of gusto that I now roll up my 771 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 772 sleeves and prepare to delve into the detail of their The deputy chairman position in each Boundary lordships’ amendments. I will speak to each amendment Commission must be filled by a High Court judge. The in turn. amendment is unnecessary for two reasons.First, the judges Lords amendments 1 and 2 provide that a boundary appointed to the Boundary Commission have already review would be carried out every 10 years. This is a undergone a rigorous recruitment procedure that gives significant change from the current legal requirement reassurance that they are able to act independently and for a review every five years. The Government’s approach, impartially. Secondly, the Lord Chancellor consults the as in the Bill before it was amended, is to mandate a Lord Chief Justice over these appointments in any case. boundary review every eight years. The Government’s This provides the views of the head of the English and aim, as set out in our manifesto, is to ensure that Welsh judiciary. The appointment of ordinary members parliamentary constituencies are updated regularly, but of the Boundary Commissions are public appointments. without the disruption to local communities and their The four commissions are listed alongside many other representatives that might occur with the current five-year public bodies and independent offices in the Public reviews. Appointments Order in Council 2019. The order is the legal basis for the governance code on public appointments While developing this Bill, my hon. Friend the Minister and the independent Commissioner for Public for the Constitution and Devolution discussed the Appointments, who regulates appointments processes. Government’s proposal for an eight-year cycle with parliamentary parties and electoral administrators and The governance code and oversight of the commissioner shared with them our broad plans for the Bill. Concerns ensure that appointments are made openly, fairly and were expressed about the importance of up-to-date on merit to the Boundary Commission and many hundreds data—particularly local government boundary data, of other public bodies. The governance code includes hence clause 8—but the Labour, Liberal Democrat, robust safeguards to ensure the political impartiality of Plaid Cymru and Scottish National party representatives the two ordinary members of the Boundary Commissions. from the parliamentary parties panel were among those These members are appointed by Ministers, having content with our approach. been assessed by an advisory assessment panel that includes a representative of the organisation in question. If reviews were to happen only every 10 years, as For Boundary Commissions, the representative is the these amendments propose, the data used in boundary deputy chairman or an ordinary member if the deputy reviews would be older and less reflective of current chairman cannot attend. It is the job of the panel to local government boundaries and demographic change. assess which candidates are appointable, so that Ministers That would also create an unfair situation for electors, may make an informed and appropriate decision. At the because where boundaries were not regularly updated application stage, all candidates are asked to declare to ensure that they more accurately represented changing political activity over the previous five years. Future demographics, there is a risk that some would feel that advisory assessment panel decisions should not be their vote was not of equal value to the votes cast in a prejudged, but it would seem likely that recent significant neighbouring constituency. We believe that the middle political activity would present a degree of conflict that ground of eight-year cycles, as proposed in the unamended would be incompatible with the panel finding a candidate Bill, is the right way forward. It removes the disruption appointable as a boundary commissioner. of a review happening roughly each time an election The Bill, as amended, creates a bespoke system for occurs, but as not too much time will pass between BoundaryCommissionappointmentsinprimarylegislation. reviews, it also delivers boundaries that are up to date There are three main reasons to oppose that amendment. and fair. I therefore trust that the House will disagree First, the existing public appointments system has secured with these Lords amendments. dedicated and expert members for the Boundary Under Lords amendment 6, members of the Boundary Commission for decades; in simple terms, “If it ain’t Commission would be chosen using a bespoke broke, don’t fix it.” Secondly, a separate appointments appointments procedure that would sit entirely outside regime could cast doubt on those appointed to public the existing public appointments process. The Bill as office under the current system. That doubt would be originally drafted did not make changes to the current unjustified, as the current system is independently regulated processes, and there has been no dispute or controversy and ensures that talented individuals with the right to date with the manner in which the commissioners skills and experience are appointed to many hundreds have been appointed. The automatic implementation of of bodies across government to carry out vital public the boundary commissioners’ final recommendations is work. We should use it wherever possible and resist the crucial to achieving regular and effective boundary urge to create new, niche systems. reviews. Thirdly, I have already mentioned that the deputy Automatic implementation also shines a light on the chairman’s previous appointment as a High Court judge boundary commissioners themselves. As parliamentary will have been sufficiently robust to ensure their ability scrutiny is not involved in the process, we must be able to act impartially.The Government are also unconvinced to trust that the commissions are effective and independent. by the argument that the Lord Chancellor cannot be We need to be able to satisfy ourselves that the process trusted to act impartially when making such appointments. of appointing all Boundary Commission members is The role of the Lord Chancellor—the Lord High thorough, independent and fair and that there is no Chancellor—occupies a unique and significant position room for any undue influence of any kind. I can reassure in our constitutional firmament, defending the judiciary the House that our current processes fulfil all those and its independence through a duty to rise above party criteria. Let me first outline how the deputy chairman politics where required. and the ordinary members of the commission are appointed David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP) rose— at present and then look at how the amendment would change the status quo. John Spellar (Warley) (Lab) rose— 773 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 774

Mr Rees-Mogg: I am spoilt for choice. I will give way The amendment also proposes that there should be a to the hon. Gentleman because I heard him marginally single, non-renewable term for boundary commissioners earlier, probably because of the distance factor. as a way to avoid any potential for an appointee’s actions to be influenced by their desire for re-appointment. David Linden: The right hon. Gentleman speaks about If an individual were to serve only one term, it would how independent the Lord Chancellor has been of late. need to be for 10 years to align with the current cycle of Given the attacks on the judiciary by this Government 10-year reviews—or eight years if the House agrees to and the attempts to break international law, does he overturn their lordships’ change to 10 years—which is a really think that stands up to scrutiny? long term of office. We are not aware of any similar examples for non-executive style roles such as this. It Mr Rees-Mogg: I think it is of fundamental importance; could be off-putting to some worthy candidates from an the Lord Chancellor is there to say to Ministers that inevitably not limitless pool of applicants for such they should not criticise judges. That is one of his roles, positions. It may also be beneficial to retain the experience to ensure that proper application of the separation of of a commissioner after their initial term, which is a powers. The current Lord Chancellor, my right hon. principle that applies across public appointments. Not and learned Friend, carries out his job with absolute prescribing a non-renewable term in law would retain aplomb, but he is not alone in this; Labour Lord flexibility in the event that a commissioner did or did Chancellors have done exactly the same. not wish to serve longer than the current norm of a four or five-year term. John Spellar: Unfortunately, now that the Lord Chancellor is, rightly or wrongly, in the House of 3.15 pm Commons, can they not be subjected to political pressures? As appointments are based on the current robust Indeed, has a previous Lord Chancellor not been expelled system that would prevent partisan candidates from from his party and therefore, in effect, expelled from being appointed in the first place, the risk of appointing Parliament? candidates who might not act impartially would be very low. Indeed, that is reflected by reappointments to the Mr Rees-Mogg: The Lord Chancellor being in the commissions. To take but one recent example, a House of Commons is something that happened earlier commissioner of the Boundary Commission for Scotland in our history, too. The right hon. Gentleman will be was appointed by a Liberal Democrat during the coalition aware that Thomas More was Lord Chancellor in the and subsequently reappointed under a Conservative House of Commons, so it is hardly unprecedented for Government. Quite simply, the system works as it is. this to happen, although there may be quibbles about In conclusion—[Interruption.]. Do not get too excited the constitutional reforms that took place under the as this is merely the conclusion on this set of amendments. Government headed by Tony Blair. I think that the I see the breath being bated around the House as hon. ability of the Lord Chancellor to be the voice of judicial Members think I am going to finish, but I am afraid I independence and of the rule of law in the highest have a bit more to get through. It is appropriate that the councils of government is one of fundamental constitutional boundary commissioners, as well as for many other importance. important public appointments, remain as they are and Where I draw different conclusions from those of the stay in place. I urge the House to disagree with the hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Gentleman is that I Lords amendment. think the role should be enhanced, protected and recognised Under amendment 7, the number of voters in each as being one of exceptionality and above the cut and constituency proposed by the boundary commission thrust of day-to-day party politics. I would mention would be permitted to vary from the UK average by distinguished Lord Chancellors from other parties here. plus or minus 7.5% or a total tolerance range of 15%. Jack Straw and Lord Irvine of Lairg were two particularly The Bill as originally drafted made no change to the distinguished Lord Chancellors, as were Lord Mackay current permitted variation from the UK average—also of Clashfern and Lord Hailsham. They were great known as the electoral quota—of plus or minus 5% or a figures who all recognised that they had a political total tolerance range of 10%. affiliation but that their solemn responsibility required Let us remind ourselves of the numbers involved. them to rise above the fray. We should defend this as Using electoral figures from 2019, a 15% tolerance something precious about our constitution. range would allow one constituency to have 78,000 The gravity of the responsibility placed upon their electors—actually, 78,059—and its neighbour to have shoulders means I have no doubt that future 67,167, or almost 11,000 fewer. I cannot think of any Lord Chancellors, one of whom could one day come arguments that justify the manifestly unfair situation of from the Liberal Democrats or the Scottish nationalists— constituencies varying by 11,000 electors at the point at [Interruption.] The Scottish National party may be which a review is done. That is simply not just. More pushing it a bit, and one from the Lib Dems is not much important than numbers is the principle of equality on more likely, but the principle is that the gravity of the which our manifesto commitment is based. The responsibilities placed upon their shoulders means that Government have been clear from the outset on that Lord Chancellors will continue to uphold the highest point. Equal and updated constituencies are a cornerstone traditions and respect for the judiciary. The notion that of our democratic system and it is a matter of fundamental they would seek to undermine or compromise this fairness that all votes should count the same regardless through appointments to the commission is anathema of where the elector lives. A 10% tolerance range achieves to us all and would certainly be unconscionable to all that aim. It allows the boundary commissioners to take past and present keepers of the Queen’s conscience—one into account factors such as geography and community of the roles of the Lord High Chancellor. ties, but it also puts equality and fairness centre stage. 775 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 776

For something as important as our right to choose the its overall efficiency considerably. The data-matching Government of the day, that is the right order of element of the initiative allows electoral registration priorities. officers to focus their efforts on hard-to-reach groups. This is the first year of the reformed canvass, and Alec Shelbrooke: Does my right hon. Friend agree anecdotal reports so far suggest that administrators that it should be the aim of the boundary commissions have found the new processes much less bureaucratic. to try to hit the electoral quota number as closely as The amendment makes two suggestions on what the they can and that the tolerance is, as he outlined, merely Government may include in the proposals they would for circumstances that may be out of their control? The be required to lay before Parliament to improve the message from the House to the boundary commissions completeness of the registers. The first would see a form should be true equality and please try to hit the number of automatic registration introduced for attainers—16 and as well as they can. 17-year-olds who can register to vote in preparation for attaining voting age—and their inclusion in the electorate Mr Rees-Mogg: My right hon. Friend makes a fair data used in boundary reviews. We are opposed to point. We all recognise that the numbers will diverge automatic registration for attainers or any other group, from the moment the commission finishes its work as in both principle and practice, as we believe that registering people move around the country.Therefore, the tolerance to vote and voting are civic duties. People should not of 5% either way—10% in total—gets the balance about have these duties done for them or be compelled to do right in the knowledge that, by the time of an election, them. That was one reason why we introduced individual it will inevitably have changed regardless A 15% tolerance electoral registration in 2014. The evidence shows that range has been thoroughly debated in both Houses and an individual system drives up registration figures. After twice rejected by this one—in Committee and on individual registration was launched, the registers for Report—so the settled view of the elected Chamber, to the 2017 and 2019 general elections were the largest which, after all, the Bill relates most directly, should ever. Electoral registration has worked. prevail. I therefore urge the House to disagree with the There are a number of practical concerns about amendment. automatic registration. Among others, it is almost certain As I turn to amendment 8, I will first pay tribute to that an automatic registration system would lead to a Lord Shutt of Greetland, who tabled the amendment in single, centralised database of electors. We are opposed the other place and sadly died recently. Lord Shutt was to this on the grounds of the significant security and a stalwart campaigner and advocate on electoral issues, privacy implications of holding that much personal as reflected in his recent excellent chairmanship of the data in one place, as well as the significant cost that Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 such a system would impose. Committee. I am sure I speak for the whole House when I say he will be much missed and offer my condolences John Spellar: But surely the electoral registers are to his family on behalf of the House. The amendment held by the local electoral registration officers and the would require the Government to make proposals for local councils, and if they are provided with that improving the completeness of electoral registers for information, they can automatically register people. the purposes of boundary reviews. It suggests two possible That is what is in the amendment. A virtual national ways in which the issuing of national insurance numbers database would be a good idea, but it is not inherent in could trigger 16 and 17-year-olds being included on the the proposition. It would mean that we did not have to registers. I will look first at the completeness of the spend a lot of money chasing those people up. Will the registers and then discuss how the amendment proposes Minister explain why he thinks it desirable that we have to register 16 and 17-year-olds. It is important to note such low registration rates of youngsters when we should that recent elections have been run on the largest ever surely want to engage them in the democratic process at electoral registers, despite the removal of 1 million an early stage? ghost entries from the register when the transition from household registration to individual registration was Mr Rees-Mogg: I point out that we have record levels completed in December 2015. People who want and are of registration. The right hon. Gentleman undermines eligible to register to vote find it easy to do so. his own argument, because as soon as the Government have all that information, they have it. If they send it The Government believe that every eligible elector out to electoral registration officers, that does not mean who wants to be included should be on the electoral that they have lost, forgotten or abandoned it; it might register, but that it should be up to each individual to do under a Labour Government, but it would not under decide whether to engage with the democratic process. a Conservative Government. I seem to remember some The Government seek to make registration as easy as Inland Revenue figures were lost under the last Labour possible and to work with many others to reduce any Government, but that is all ancient history and a long barriers to registration. For example, we introduced time ago. If the Government have that information, online registration. As a result, it became simpler and they have it; if has not been forgotten or wiped from the faster to register to vote; it now takes as little as five central mind just because they have sent it out to local minutes to register. Similarly, we are focused on ensuring officers. The risk of having a large, centralised system is that electoral registration officers—with whom the statutory that it would be expensive, and there would be risks in responsibility for maintaining complete and accurate terms of security and privacy implications. registers lies—have the tools they need to do their jobs efficiently and effectively. For example, the Government John Spellar: National insurance already has a national have made many resources to promote democratic database—that is inherent to that system. That information engagement and voter registration freely available on would not be distributed to every local authority; gov.uk. Furthermore, our changes to the annual canvass information would be distributed on those who are of all residential properties in Great Britain will improve resident within the postcodes in the local authority. 777 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 778

[John Spellar] for England, but they should co-operate with the Welsh Government to ensure that that democratic mandate is What the Leader of the House is saying makes no sense fulfilled. at all. There is already a national database of national insurance numbers; logically, that has nothing whatsoever Mr Rees-Mogg: It is a matter for the Welsh Government to do with telling local councils who is in their particular to decide how they draw up their register. If they want area so that they can chase them up. help from HM Government, I am sure they will have Mr Rees-Mogg: That is not actually accurate. The ways and means of getting in touch to ask for it, but it national insurance database does not consist purely of would be disrespectful of HMG to involve themselves, voters; it consists of people who have national insurance without being invited, in decisions that have been made numbers because they are eligible for tax in this country, by the Welsh Government. If we were doing something and they may be foreign nationals. That is another like that in Scotland, the fury of the Scottish National problem: we would be trying to match together a database party would know no bounds—but then it has to be that is held for an entirely different purpose. It would said that the fury of the SNP usually knows no bounds. have to be scrubbed to turn it into an electoral database, Let us take note of the experience of other jurisdictions at which point we would have an electoral database held that have introduced automatic registration: the point centrally, which is exactly the problem we are trying to that I was trying to make in response to interventions is avoid. I think we are on strong ground on this one. that registrations may have increased, but so have concerns about errors and inaccuracies. Automatic voter registration Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) would lead to less accurate electoral registers, especially (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that although if people had recently moved homes.Computers and—dare we want to encourage mass participation in the democratic I say it—algorithms might add to electoral rolls people process among the young, old and everybody in between, who did not live in the area, because of out-of-date it is an inherent right in our democracy that people get entries held on other databases. They might also add to choose whether they partake in that democracy? If people who had a residence but were not eligible to vote. someone chooses not to register to vote, that is up to The Government are not prepared to undo all the that individual, and that is something that we respect. benefits of our individual registration system by introducing the errors and inaccuracies that automatic registration Mr Rees-Mogg: Freedom of the individual in would make more likely. After all, inaccurate registers participation is of fundamental importance. People have facilitate voter fraud and undermine faith in the integrity to decide whether they wish to vote—whether they wish of our democratic processes. [Interruption.] The one to be actively involved. It is worth saying, again, that point at which those on the somnolent Opposition individual electoral registration has increased the number Benches wake up is when I say that inaccurate registers of people who are registered and increased the accuracy facilitate voter fraud. of the database. As I said, a million ghosts—phantom voters—were removed, and that is important. The integrity They clearly want inaccurate and phantom voters. of the electoral register is of fundamental importance The only thing that seems to excite them is phantom to the confidence that people have in the honesty of our voters. That is why I urge the House to disagree with the system, and we have a very robust system. Lords amendment.

Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Co-op): I note that the Leader of the House has not yet 3.30 pm made any reference to Wales, where we are extending However,Mr Speaker,sometimes this House is agreeable. the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds. We value the voice [Interruption.] Oh, it is Madam Deputy Speaker; the of young people—16 year-olds—in Wales, and I have flowers bloom, if I may say so. I turn to amendments 3, long supported that idea for the whole of the UK. Will 4 and 5, which we commend to the House. I am grateful the Leader of the House set out what steps the UK to Lord Young of Cookham—particularly as he was a Government are taking to support the Welsh Government previous Leader of the House, and a very distinguished in the democratic process of ensuring that 16 and one at that—for engaging with us so that we could agree 17-year-olds have the right to vote in the Senedd elections on amendments that the Government can support. in May? With the amendments, the Bill sets out a clear deadline Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman cannot have it by which the Government must submit the draft boundary both ways.Devolved matters are for the devolved authorities Order to Her Majesty in Council. Any opportunity for to take care of, not for Her Majesty’snational Government the Government to delay unreasonably after the Boundary to take care of. The Welsh Government have made that Commission’s final recommendation is therefore also decision and will be able to implement it. If they cannot removed. This adds further strength to the independence implement the decision, one has to ask why they made it. of the review process. The Bill sets out that the draft Order in Council must Stephen Doughty: The Leader of the House is trying be submitted to have it both ways as well. The reality is that the UK “as soon as reasonably practicable” Government hold sources of information—whether it is the national insurance database or one of many after all four reports have been laid before Parliament. others—that can assist in ensuring accurate electoral As amended, the Bill also requires that “in any case” registration in all parts of the UK. Would it not be this must happen better for the UK Government to co-operate with the “no later than the end of the four month period unless there are Welsh Government? They might take a different view exceptional circumstances.” 779 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 780

We believe that a deadline of four months is reasonable, of Executive influence. This amendment is important as it allows sufficient time to draft the boundary order becauseof thesignificantchangeof removingparliamentary and associated orders, and to submit the draft boundary oversight. In the past, Parliament has always played a order. democratic role in the boundary review process. This There is significant policy and legal work involved in Bill will remove the very backstop that secured the the drafting of a boundary order, the associated orders existence of the 650 constituencies we all represent in that designate returning officers for all new constituencies this House today. in Great Britain, and the charges orders, which set out The passage of this amendment would ensure that, the fees and expenses payable to returning officers at an much like the appointment of judges, the appointment election. The returning officers order also require some of boundary commissioners was wholly independent. consultation with existing returning officers,local authorities Deputy chairs of the boundary commissions for England and the Electoral Commission. As my noble friend and Wales would be appointed by the Lord Chief Lord True emphasised in the other place, the words Justice, not the Lord Chancellor. Commissioners would “as soon as reasonably practicable” be appointed by a selection panel comprising the deputy remain in the Bill under these amendments. While I chair of the relevant commission and two others appointed cannot bind future Governments to commit resources by the Speaker of the House of Commons. A report to contingent preparations, automaticity in this regard would be submitted to the Secretary of State saying is a Government policy. I intended to set four months as whom the panel had recommended. As it stands, this the very last deadline, rather than it being an ambition Bill allows Government Ministers to have undue influence to take that long. Regardless, we will of course work to over their appointments, and the Government’s track ensure that the draft boundary order is submitted to record on appointing their close friends to positions of Her Majesty as soon as reasonably practicable. public authority speaks for itself. I simply do not trust a I hope that these Government-backed amendments Government who have shamelessly appointed their mates bring additional certainty that the recommendations of to run the BBC, Ofcom, NHS Test and Trace and other the Boundary Commission will be implemented without major bodies. political interference or unnecessary delay. I therefore I would also like to address Lords amendment 7, trust that the House will agree to these particular Lords which seeks to alleviate the inevitable break-up of amendments, and commend them to the House. communities resulting from a too narrow 5% quota. While this might seem dry, at its heart the change has a Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): I welcome real consequence for communities in the UK. Constituencies the Leader of the House to his place this afternoon. He must be of broadly equal size in a fair and representative is,of course,standing in for the Minister for the Constitution democracy—and on that point, I hope we all agree—but and Devolution, the hon. Member for Norwich North international best practice recommends that flexibility (Chloe Smith), who, given her recent health diagnosis, is should be baked into the system to allow for consideration taking some time away from this House, but not from of geography and community ties.The Council of Europe’s her work. I want to put on the record how much the Venice Commission code of good practice in electoral Labour party wishes her a speedy recovery, because I matters recommends allowing a standard permissible agree with the Leader of the House that he is a poor tolerance from the electoral quota of plus or minus 10%. substitute for the formidable Minister! UK experts who gave evidence to the Bill Committee The Labour party supports a boundary review in recognised that the tight 5% quota will force constituency time for the next general election. Throughout all stages boundaries to cut across communities, ward boundaries, of the Bill, Opposition Members and their noble lordships rivers, lakes, mountains and of course motorways to have worked constructively to use this opportunity as a engineer the right mathematical numbers. Indeed, the chance to improve and enhance the UK’s democracy. I secretary to the Boundary Commission for England thank the noble Lords for the constructive amendments admitted that a smaller tolerance makes it that we are considering, and urge all Members to support … … them. The amendments all have the same central aim, “much harder to have regard to factors such as the importance of not breaking local ties, and having regard to local authority which is to ensure that our parliamentary constituencies boundaries and features of natural geography.”––[Official Report, are drawn using data that is as complete and accurate as Parliamentary Constituencies Public Bill Committee, 18 June 2020; possible. c. 7, Q3.] As I watched the US election unfold last week, I was When the 5% variance was first introduced in 2011, reminded that our democracy and strong constituency the Government at that time were committed to having links should not be taken for granted, and that we a 600-seat Chamber. The average number of electors should be working constantly to improve and defend per constituency therefore would have been much higher, our system of parliamentary governance in this country.At meaning that the 5% that the boundary commissioners every stage of the Bill, the Government have had ample would be working with would actually include more opportunity to improve democratic representation— electors to work with in the margins of these seats. This from filling the gaps in our electoral register to ensuring is an important point, because by failing to widen the that our constituency boundaries properly reflect the tolerance while increasing the size of the Chamber back communities within them. Sadly, though, the missing up to 650, the commissions actually have far fewer 9 million people from our electoral roll will now not be electors to work with—roughly in the region of just included in next constituency map of the UK. 3,000 electors. If we consider that the average urban Turning to the Lords amendments before us, I want ward in England is about 8,000 electors, we can appreciate to begin by addressing Lords amendment 6, which the significance of needing at least 4,000 electors either ensures that the appointment of members of the Boundary side of the quota to prevent the breaking up of wards Commissions is made and seen to be made independently and communities. 781 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 782

Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): Does and it is quite fitting that his last contribution was in the hon. Member agree with me that, arguably, having support of this amendment. I was speaking to the hon. such a narrow tolerance could create a butterfly effect, Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) whereby a housing development in one constituency earlier today and he told me that he was a down-to-earth, might then tip it over the edge? In fact, we are looking at humble, funny and genuinely nice bloke. I would like to two thirds of the current constituencies being changed put on record the Opposition’s condolences to his family as a result of this strict limit. at this sad time. Lord Shutt’s amendment would represent a significant Cat Smith: Indeed. The hon. Member is right about step forward in voter registration and, hopefully, the butterfly effect, because of course we cannot change participation among young voters. As we all know, one parliamentary constituency without having a knock-on electoral registers are the fundamental building blocks effect on all the neighbouring constituencies too. for constituency boundaries. Sixteen and 17-year-olds The truth is that constituencies should look like can register as attainers head of their 18th birthday. communities.I thought that point was made very effectively Since the introduction of individual electoral registration, on Second Reading by the right hon. Member for the number of 16 and 17-year-olds who have been Basingstoke (Mrs Miller). I hope she does not mind if I registered has fallen from around 45% in 2015 to just quote what she said then: 25% last year. This amendment would enable the “Constituencies should not just be numerical constructs; they Government to ask local authorities’ registration officers should be constructed for communities first and foremost”.—[Official to add 16-year-olds to the electoral register when they Report, 2 June 2020; Vol. 676, c. 804.] get their national insurance number or, alternatively, I completely agree. ensure that 16-year-olds would be provided with information on how to apply to join the electoral register on receiving Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): Forgive me, their national insurance number. Madam Deputy Speaker, but I was quoted. Does the This sensible arrangement could radically improve hon. Lady agree, though, that a variance of up to the number of young people registering to vote, hopefully 10,000 voters will actually give the Boundary Commission helping them to develop a habit of a lifetime of voting, more than ample flexibility to be able to accommodate and—more relevant to this legislation—mean that our communities? The figures she was citing earlier were constituency boundaries are representative of younger not, I think, entirely accurate. voters. The 16 and 17-year-olds that are considered when it comes to drawing constituency boundaries are Cat Smith: I hope that the right hon. Lady will be likely to be the electors at a subsequent general election. able to expand on that in her contribution; she is next For that reason alone, the Minister should give the on the call list to speak. However, I do not quite amendment great consideration. understand the point that she is trying to make, because there is always going to be a balance between— In conclusion, the Labour party fundamentally rejects [Interruption.] If she would like to listen, there will the Government’s attempt to end the parliamentary always have to be a balance between hitting the quota approval of the new constituency boundaries, and we and getting as close as we can to 0% from the quota—it ask that Members think hard about the impact of the would be desirable if every constituency had the exactly restrictive 5% quota. Ministers know very well exactly the same number of electors—while keeping communities what needs to be done to enable greater democratic together. I do not think that the idea of dividing a street engagement, and the fact that they have consistently or a housing estate arbitrarily to create exactly the same failed to take any action tells us all we need to know. size constituency boundaries would cut the mustard Mrs Miller: It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. with the public. The 5% rule runs a coach and horses Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith). We through those community ties. It creates a kind of also seem to have a number of Members of the Public painting-by-numbers approach to the boundary review, Bill Committee in the Chamber today. It was a vigorous and it will lead to long-established communities being and very compelling Committee and I am sure that the split from one another and will erode local identities debate today will follow that. and divide neighbourhoods. Quite simply, we cannot have it both ways; we cannot protect local ties and 3.45 pm enforce a strict quota. The hon. Lady chose to quote me from the Committee. Throughout the Bill, the Government have argued Perhaps I could make the quote more complete. I also that a 5% tolerance will make every vote count equally, pointed out that constituencies such as Basingstoke, but I would argue that even a 0% quota would not make which now has almost 83,000 voters, could ask the every vote carry the same weight. Leaving aside the fact Boundary Commission to consider splitting it into two that millions of voters are effectively disenfranchised instead of its continual desire to “doughnut”constituencies. every election owing to the existence of so-called safe Although I believe that constituencies should represent seats, it is simply not true that every vote would count a community, there are many – Reading, Swindon and equally as a result of this Bill, because at any election others – that enjoy being two separate constituencies we now know that in the region of 9 million eligible because then Members can work together. We know electors are incorrectly registered and are losing out on that teamwork is an important part of the job we do. their chance to vote. Millions more will potentially join I join other right hon. and hon. Members in sending them if the Government’s plans to roll out voter ID very good wishes to my hon. Friend the Member for come into force, as we have seen, similarly, in US elections. Norwich North (Chloe Smith). Her attention to detail I turn to Lords amendment 8, which was tabled by on this important constitutional change has been second Lord Shutt, who, very sadly, died two weeks ago. He to none and we miss her in this debate. She would not was passionately committed to improving our democracy want a better stand-in than my right hon. Friend the 783 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 784

Leader of the House and I hope that he has done as in Wales are covered by another part of the Bill. Yet much homework as I know she would have done. From again, why have this dislocation when it does not actually his comments today, it looks as though that is the case. I impact in the way that she is describing? look forward to seeing my hon. Friend back at the Dispatch Box very soon. We miss her. Mrs Miller: I think my voters, and I am sure others, There has been much deliberation of the Bill in the would want to be aware of the difference between other place because it is an important set of changes. constituencies,and whether they are in Wales or Hampshire, Hon. Members will find it particularly interesting to see each voter should have the same ability to be represented members of the House of Lords paying such close in this place. That is manifestly not the case at the moment. attention to how democratic elections work. Of course, We had no end of evidence from experts on that many of them have expertise in standing for election point, and I think we should all thank those who took and I hope that that is something about which they will the time,not only to give written evidence to the Committee, think more in the future. Let us be clear. This debate but to appear before the Committee in person too. It relates to a manifesto pledge of the Government. Less was clear from that evidence to the Committee that than 12 months ago, we on the Government Benches there was no compelling reason to deviate from the stood on a platform to update our constitutional legislation Government’s proposals; it is important to put that on to ensure that we have equal boundaries so that every the record today. vote counts the same in each constituency, with some Dr Alan Renwick from University College London important exceptions. said in oral evidence that no academic expert would be able to decide that what was on the face of the Bill David Linden: The right hon. Lady talks about manifesto should be changed. It is clear also from the evidence commitments. It was not that long ago that there was a that there is room for accommodating those rules that manifesto commitment to have 600 seats in the House we discussed at length, that there is sufficient flexibility of Commons. What changed for the Government? in practice, and that the Boundary Commission will still [Interruption] be able to adhere to community ties. Mrs Miller: As one of my hon. Friends says from a I now come to the main point that I want to make to sedentary position, it was a different manifesto. Even the Leader of the House, because it really perturbed the more importantly, one fundamental change that the Committee. I absolutely agree that the amendment should hon. Gentleman will know more about is that we are not be made, but I want to be opportunistic and take choosing to leave the EU and, as a result, Members will the opportunity to land this point once more with the have more work to do. Government. We were concerned about the evidence that we saw from the Boundary Commission for England, David Linden: Will the right hon. Lady give way? and its ability to work within the way that the Bill sets out. Mrs Miller: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me not The oral evidence from Mr Tony Bellringer from the to give way, this is not a debate between the two of us. Boundary Commission for England very much underlined The Leader of the House has set out important responses the commission’s current approach of working with to these amendments which deserve a great deal of wards as “building blocks”, and emphasised that currently consideration. He has given a comprehensive analysis that organisation does not hold a system or a dataset of these Lords amendments. Taking into account the that could allow it to work in any other way. Yet, on the fact that the Government have accepted amendments 3, other hand, we heard—I think on the same day—that 4 and 5 already, I would like to confine my comments to the Boundary Commission for Scotland does just that: amendment 7 but also join him in agreeing that all the it holds datasets that allow it to work at a sub-ward other amendments are manifestly unnecessary. Indeed, level. It is important that my right hon. Friend addresses the Committee considered those issues in detail and that point, so that we may send a very loud message to found that the Bill should remain as it is. the Boundary Commission for England that our democracy Amendment 7 would undermine the essence of the is important to us, that the Bill is all about equally sized Bill because it increases, not reduces, the opportunity constituencies, and that the commission needs to work for differences between constituencies. I referred to with that. Basingstoke during my intervention on the hon. Member My hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and for Lancaster and Fleetwood. Currently we have almost Middleton (Chris Clarkson) reminded us in Committee 83,000 voters in Basingstoke, whereas a constituency that it was the chartists who, in the people’s charter of such as Rhondda has just over 50,000. That shows 1838, called for the principle of electoral equality, and starkly the necessity for change and for us to take this said that that should remain the cornerstone of our opportunity to make that change work as well as it can. democracy now and in future. I hope that the Leader of It is as much to do with the way the current system the House will reassure the House that no historical works, in terms of Parliament being able to intervene in approach by the Boundary Commission for England these measures.The difference between those constituencies will stand in the way of that organisation’s creating is stark. But it is incumbent on us to ensure that any equal constituencies following the coming into force of changes we put in place do not build another raft of this legislation, so that a vote in whichever part of the problems for the future. United Kingdom we live, from here to Ynys Môn and beyond, can count equally. John Spellar: The right hon. Lady’s example of the Rhondda does not hold, I am afraid, because the allocation John Spellar: The right hon. Lady wants equality. of seats to Wales will be based on the number of Did she not move the amendment that said that Ynys registered electors. Therefore, there may be some variations Môn should stand alone, even though it would be much within Wales, but her seat in Basingstoke and constituencies smaller than the quota? 785 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 786

Mrs Miller: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman Scotland is currently represented by 59 MPs and would not want to be the person from the Labour although I continue to work every single day of the Benches to tell the people of Ynys Môn that Labour week to ensure that Scotland is no longer governed by does not believe that theirs should be a unique constituency. Westminster, until that day comes, I will fight to ensure Thank you so much for the opportunity to contribute that Scotland’s voice is fairly heard in this Chamber. to the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker and I hope the Based on the proposed electoral quotas, we would see Leader of the House can answer my questions. Scotland losing two or three seats to the advantage of England, which strikes me as being wholly unfair and flies in the face of the rallying calls that Scotland should David Linden: It is a pleasure, as always, to follow the lead the United Kingdom, rather than leave it. After the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller). 2014 referendum, Scotland was promised that it would I start by sending my best wishes to the Minister for be considered an equal partner in this Union. However, the Constitution and Devolution, the hon. Member for the fact that Scotland is now set to lose three constituency Norwich North (Chloe Smith), who has been a formidable seats should continue to highlight the promises made but good-natured opponent on the Bill. Naturally, there post 2014 that have been proven to be empty again. is much for me to disagree about when it comes to my I welcome all the amendments made in the House of dealings with Britain’s Constitution Minister,but personal Lords and commit my party to voting for them when health always transcends politics, and I know I speak the Division bells ring tonight, but there were some real for us all when I wish her all the very best for her missed opportunities for their lordships to dramatically treatment in the coming weeks and months. I look improve the Bill. First, I am bitterly disappointed that forward to seeing her back at the Dispatch Box. their lordships did not remove the provisions of clause 2, I also welcome the Leader of the House to our which deals with the issue of automaticity or parliamentary proceedings on the Bill. He is always incredibly entertaining approval of commission recommendations. Too often and I have certainly enjoyed watching his transition in earlier debates, the Government got away with suggesting from a robust and consistent Back Bencher to a member that MPs should not be marking their own homework of the Cabinet having to participate in the parliamentary when it came to the approval of new boundaries, but I gymnastics of Government U-turns that have become a am genuinely surprised that the other House, which has hallmark of this Government. a role in approving recommendations as well, has also relinquished that right. When it comes to Scottish peers— The particular U-turn that this Bill legislates for is in most if not all of them have never been elected—there reference to clause 5. That undoes the 2011 legislation, was a hugely missed opportunity to try to protect the which I think the right hon. Gentleman voted for and voices of devolved nations in future Parliaments. It which would have reduced the number of constituencies should have been a priority for Members of the House in the House from 650 to 600. With new legislative of Lords to protect Scotland’s 59 seats in this Parliament powers coming back from Brussels post Brexit, it would and to protect our ability to represent our constituents surely have been bonkers to reduce the number of MPs and not to diminish Scotland’s voice. I see that some while increasing the legislative power of the Executive. Conservative Members look quite perplexed at this idea Let me respond to the point of the right hon. Member of protecting seats, but of course it was 1980s legislation for Basingstoke. I know that she did not want to have a under Margaret Thatcher that protected Scotland initially debate about it, but her point was that the Government at 73 seats and then they were reduced to 59 under changed their position as a result of Britain’s exit from devolution. Therefore, for those who look a bit perplexed the European Union. In actual fact, as someone who about this, it was actually something that was advocated served on the Parliamentary Constituencies (Amendment) by a Conservative Government. Bill Committee, a Bill brought forward by the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Afzal Khan), I know Having set out our position in the Bill, I will confine that, until December last year, the Government opposed my remarks to the amendments for consideration from that Bill every single way by withholding the money the other place. I turn to amendments 1 and 2. My resolution. By that point, Britain was already leaving party supports the amendments to review the boundaries the European Union, so I am afraid that the right every 10 years, as opposed to the shorter timeframe of hon. Lady’s argument does not stand up to scrutiny on eight years, mainly due to the increased certainty that it that part. gives to constituents and representatives alike. Moving from eight to 10 years does not strike me as being an The fact that, under new calculations, Scotland will unreasonable compromise and I am therefore content lose out on two to three constituency seats is making a to offer my party’s support for the amendment being mockery of the promises made after the 2014 independence made permanent to the Bill. referendum. In fact, it seems that all the devolved nations will now stand to lose out on constituency seats On amendment 6, I also support the change to have under the new calculations. The nation, of course, that an independent appointment process. Earlier in my is due to lose the most seats under these proposals is remarks, I made reference to authenticity and the Wales, with all witnesses in Committee, including the Government’s argument that MPs should not have a CCHQ representative, Mr Pratt, saying that Wales would, role in approving the commissioner’s recommendations. in his own words, “take a hit”. I am sure that Welsh If we follow the logic of the argument about removing Conservative MPs were delighted about that being placed perceived self-interest, then the same is surely true for in Hansard. Again, it has been widely acknowledged Ministers—in this case, the Lord Chancellor appointing that, under the current formula, Wales would lose seats boundary commissioners. Amendment 6 would see the to the benefit of the south-east of England. But this is power to appoint commissioners transferred from a not the only UK nation that stands to have diminished politician to the Lord Chief Justice. That would, in representation in the House of Commons. effect, stop future Tory Ministers from appointing their 787 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 788 chums to the Boundary Commission. By keeping clause 2(2) weeks, but was responsible for securing this amendment in the Bill but voting against Lords amendment 6, the in the other place. By using the electoral registers as the Government would, in effect, be having their cake and data source to draw parliamentary constituencies, the eating it, and be charged with rank hypocrisy. I know Bill also seeks to disadvantage young people, as the data the Leader of the House is a good man, and I am sure is less likely to include the names of young people than he would not want to be portrayed as a hypocrite by it is older people, since young people are often not voting for such a fundamentally contradictory proposition. registered to vote. Registration rates for eligible 16 and 17-year-olds were estimated to be 25% in 2018—a drop 4 pm from 45% in 2015. In contrast, 94% of those aged I now move on to Lords amendment 7. A 5% tolerance 65-plus were estimated to be registered. The SNP therefore is not appropriate, and I want to offer my support to supports this amendment, which requires the Government this amendment calling for a modest increase to 7.5%. In to bring forward proposals to improve the completeness our evidence session in Committee, Mr Bellringer of the of the electoral register in relation to attainers. Only Boundary Commission for England spoke about the then can we ensure that we are not disadvantaging difficulty caused by a smaller tolerance, which makes it young people in the electoral process. “much harder to have regard to the other factors that you specify The Leader of the House has spent the majority of in the legislation, such as the importance of not breaking local his time in this House on the Back Benches advocating ties, and having regard to local authority boundaries and features Brexit and talking about Parliament taking back control of natural geography.Basically, the smaller you make the tolerance, from an all-powerful Executive—something this Bill the fewer options we have.” makes worse. I therefore want to finish by paraphrasing Indeed, Mr Bellringer, who was quoted by the right hon. something a wise man once said in this House many Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), went on to say: years ago about standing up for democracy: “The only real way to mitigate it is to make the tolerance figure “’Stiffen your sinews, summon up the blood and imitate slightly larger. The larger you make it, the more options we have the action of a tiger, for that is how you should behave towards and the more flexibility we have to have regard to the other our European partners, not like Bagpuss.’” —[Official Report, factors”.––[Official Report, Parliamentary Constituencies Public 24 October 2011; Vol. 534, c. 109.] Bill Committee, 18 June 2020; c. 7.] I thus again urge the Government to increase the tolerance Alec Shelbrooke: I would like to start by commenting to give the commissioners wider discretion. on Lords amendment 7 and the flexibility.Wekeep hearing this mathematical argument, but we seem to be getting Andrew Bowie rose— awayfrom the overarching principle.Already this afternoon, we have heard that it is difficult to keep local communities David Linden: I am happy to give way to my hon. together unless we move to a tolerance of 7.5%, which Friend. strikes me as odd when it would mean going from a Andrew Bowie: I thank my hon. Friend—and he is a difference of roughly 7,500 voters to one of 11,000. friend. Does he not agree that what we are trying Many electoral wards in this country have fewer than to achieve is ensuring that each vote in this country is, 7,500 voters, so are we now making the argument that as far as possible, equal to the next one? The more that wards themselves split communities and that they are we increase the tolerance, the less equal everybody’s wrong as well? There is a fundamental principle: if we vote becomes, and so we move further and further away went to 7.5%, one vote could be worth one 67,000th and from what we are trying to achieve by going through another could be worth one 77,000th. That is quite a this process in the first place. significant difference. I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Glasgow David Linden: What I am trying to make sure is that I East (David Linden). I very much enjoyed working with and my hon. Friend are made unemployed fairly soon—but him in Committee and having the debates that we had, that is a separate matter. The point is that it was previously and I have a huge amount of respect for him. He made enshrined in legislation that Scotland would have 73 seats a very important point about equal representation. He and then it would rightly be reduced to 59 in the light of said that by losing seats, Scotland will not have equal devolution. Government Members cannot have their cake representation. I would argue that the exact opposite is and eat it; in one respect they are enshrining in legislation true: it is equal representation—and of course there are a certain number of seats, but locking that down in two protected seats in Scotland; recognition has been legislation means that there will be a degree of difference. made of the geographical reasons why the Outer Hebrides However, I have a huge amount of respect for my hon. and Orkney and Shetland are separate. It is not fair to Friend, and he has put his point on the record. say that Scotland is getting less representation and that I return to the point made by Mr Bellringer in the it needs to be equally represented, because there will be evidence session that there is a need to move towards equal United Kingdom representation. That is what a tolerance rate of, say, 7.5%. That is why I urge the this is about: the United Kingdom’s Government. Government to increase it to give commissioners the The hon. Gentleman and I are never going to agree wider discretion that they asked for when they gave us on his nationalistic views and my Union views—that is that evidence. I know that the Government are not why I sit on the Conservative Benches and he sits on the particularly fond of listening to experts these days, but I SNP Benches—but we just seem to be plucking figures am very hopeful that this afternoon they could just out of the air for the 7.5% and the 5%. Again, I listened make a wee exception for the Boundary Commission carefully to the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood for England. (Cat Smith) and I have a huge deal of respect for her. Finally,I want to make reference to Lords amendment 8. She made an argument about the 600 seats and how Before doing so, I offer my sincere condolences, on that changed the number of voters when dealing with behalf of my party, to the family of Lord Shutt, who, as the 5%. However,away from the numbers, the fundamental we have heard, passed away only in the past couple of principle must be to get as close as possible. 789 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 790

[Alec Shelbrooke] come through, but that is because nothing has happened for a quarter of a century. The changes will be of that I made the point in intervening on my right hon. Friend size; they will be disruptive. the Leader of the House about trying to get as close to It is better to go in a cycle of two general elections so the quota as possible. It should be possible to do that that, hopefully, from this point on, with the Government if the Boundary Commission for England, especially, amendments to try to make the whole system more takes the approach that the Boundary Commission for robust and far less open to political shenanigans in the Scotland takes and decides that it does not have to draw House, we will not see such major changes in future. It some very strange shapes and lines using ward boundaries, is better that the system can be, for want of a better but that it can work with smaller electoral segments. word, tinkered with to make sure that we get back to We heard the argument in Committee that polling roughly within those tolerances. We all accept that there districts can be changed by local authorities and can will be demographic change and housing change. Big lose that representation—that they could be gerrymandered things are happening, including the ambition to build —but of course there will come a point when the so many houses, which will cause change. Electoral Commission looks at where they are today. It What seems like a small amendment would have a has already said that it will go on where they are today; huge impact. Very large changes would have to be made it is using the March 2020 register and those units as simply by adding those two years and getting into a they exist today. If, in eight years’ time, there have been three-general-election cycle. changes to those polling districts, for whatever reason, Lords amendment 8 is about registrations. It is a that can be taken into account at that time, and the fundamental right of people in this country to choose Electoral Commission is an independent body. whether they want to register for a vote or not. I will happily support the Government in disagreeing with Lords amendment 7. Fundamentally, we cannot John Spellar: It is absolutely, certainly not. It is lose sight of the fact that we are trying to give equality actually a criminal offence not to return a registration of vote. In my mind, the tolerance is there not to try to form. draw the most convenient shape using wards, but purely to allow the flexibility for which a need will inevitably Alec Shelbrooke: The reality is that people who do build up over the eight years, as my right hon. Friend not want to register to vote can do that. They have to the Leader of the House said, with new housing register for council tax and those processes. developments and so on. My right hon. Friend the John Spellar: That is absolutely wrong. It is an offence Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) has made the not to return the electoral registration form. The fact point many times that development, especially in certain that councils do not enforce that and do not think it is parts of the country, is huge, and it leads to such worth it may be another matter, but it is a prosecutable housing developments. That is what the tolerance should offence not to return a registration form. be about; it should not be about trying to draw the shapes to have one just creeping in at the bottom end Alec Shelbrooke: Well, the right hon. Gentleman has and one just meeting the higher end. The flexibility made a point there that I stand to be corrected on. should allow a 5% tolerance of the share of that vote over the eight years; it should not get there straight I also stand to be corrected on this point. I do not away. If a constituency is made at the higher end, within want to mislead the House; these figures can be checked. eight years, it will almost certainly be above that number For the European referendum, in my constituency, 1,500 and we will be back in the same situation. extra people went on the register and have now come off. They chose to register to take part in that ballot, which My constituency of Elmet and Rothwell has 79,316 meant a lot to them, but they do not want to take part in electors. The neighbouring constituency of Leeds East other ballots. They worked out how to register; they has 65,693. The neighbouring constituency to that of Leeds registered; they legally took part in the ballot; they have Central has 82,211. It simply cannot be right to have not registered going forward. It has to be right that such variation within less than 10 miles as the crow flies. people have that choice. As my right hon. Friend the My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Leader of the House said, the amendments would lead Andrew) is in his place and cannot speak in the debate. to a far greater complication of the system, and centralised [Interruption.] I can still smell and taste; it’s all right. data, which has not exactly worked well in other areas— He and I have represented Leeds electors since the early including, quite frankly, some of the things that people 2000s. We have seen great differences in the city and are trying to achieve at the moment in this crisis. We have how it is set up. His constituency is on the higher side of seen some of the problems and weaknesses that can occur. the number of electors in Leeds. My voters are getting almost one 80,000th of a vote, whereas in the neighbouring 4.15 pm seat they are getting one 65,000th of a vote. It is right to The system works, and it works better than it ever reject Lords amendment 7 simply because we should see did. We have seen millions of phantom registrations it not as a way to fill the gap and make constituencies come off through individual voter registration, and that work, but purely as a way to give people a vote that will gives it robustness. Where does it go next? Are we going change plus or minus 5% over the eight-year period to to move to the Australian system of fining people if try to keep things roughly similar. they do not vote? That is a tax on choice, and it is not Lords amendment 1 is about moving from eight to right. People can choose to opt out of taking part in the 10 years. The reality is that that means we would probably system. When it does matter to people—when something go through three general elections on those boundaries. big happens, such as the referendum—we get a huge We have heard a lot in these debates about how big the turnout, like in the American election. We have just seen boundary changes are probably going to be when they a record turnout of voters in the American election. 791 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 792

My final point is about the boundary commissions. John Spellar: I think the hon. Gentleman will find Many of the points about how schemes are built and that in Slough it was Conservative party members who were put together were discussed in Committee. It is important convicted, but we can always check that. There has been that the boundary commissions work in the regions. very, very little evidence of fraud from either postal votes That works very well, and the hon. Member for Lancaster or votes in person. We repeatedly challenged Ministers and Fleetwood and I now have a famous quote between to come up with the data. When the Electoral Commission us about Lancashire and Yorkshire not mixing. I hope reports on election after election, when tens of millions the Boundary Commission for England picked up on of people are voting, we end up with one or two cases the point during the debate that it must be more creative each year. than just doing some squiggly lines trying to get wards to work, and looking at splitting wards. Stephen Doughty: I think my right hon. Friend will For those reasons, coming back to Lords amendment 7, find that the evidence shows there have been only nine it is important that we do not change the tolerance level. cases of postal vote fraud since 1998—one every two There should be flexibility for the changes that occur years. over the period, and rather than trying to get to either the bottom end or the top end, we should try to get it in John Spellar: Exactly right. the middle. Moving on to constituency size, the right hon. Member John Spellar: I join others in paying tribute to and for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) rightly points sending condolences to the Minister for the Constitution out the disparities between seats in the Leeds area. Basically, and Devolution, the hon. Member for Norwich North the fundamental reason for that was David Cameron’s (Chloe Smith). There is, however, one upside to her proposals to try to get electoral advantage out of absence, which is that, with the Leader of the House, we reducing the number of seats and making a very tight have the Conservative Trumpist philosophy, red in tooth margin of difference. To be quite clear, the reason they and claw, absolutely out there in the open. We had it were not carried was that they impacted on many again just now on ghost voters on the register. At the Conservative Members of Parliament as well. Many of same time, the Government reject any attempt to make the newer Members here probably think, “It don’t apply a more rational, accurate and comprehensive registration to me, it’ll be all right” but it is the butterfly effect process. We have seen that all the way through, with mentioned by the hon. Member for North East Fife attempts on voter suppression and attempts to make (Wendy Chamberlain). When we have such tight margins, things more difficult at the polling station, in spite of and if we are not going to be disrupting wards as the the complete lack of evidence—in the same way that building blocks, then we will find that there will be Donald Trump has been trying to discredit the American gratuitous disruption. election, claiming that there are fraudulent voters, Everyone understands that movement of population particularly in postal voting. It is the same old song. results in some disruption to constituencies and Members For those on the Government Benches, here is a breaking of Parliament. That happened in 1997 when I had my news story: Donald Trump has lost the election. seat carved three ways, with part of it going to the then Speaker, Madam Boothroyd—it was not a good option Alec Shelbrooke: I do not think anybody on these to try to run there—so I fully understand how disruptive Benches will disagree that Donald Trump has lost the that can be. The reason why the proposals did not go election. through, and why we have had such a long delay, is The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in precisely because, stubbornly,two Prime Ministers insisted Europe, which many of us have taken part in, produced on trying to go ahead. It was not just Members on the its report. It is not fair of the right hon. Gentleman to Opposition Benches who were opposed to it, but many cast aspersions on the Government about suppressing Government Members who can understand when voter registration. The changes that were made to the postal population change sometimes leads to disruption, but voting system in this country were made as a direct result really do not understand it when it gratuitously causes of OSCE reports on previous elections. I have a huge great disruption to communities, Members of Parliament amount of respect for the right hon. Gentleman —I and their electorates. consider him a friend—and I know he would not wish The other thing about the proposals and very tight to cast such an aspersion. I hope he will reflect on that. margins is that we very often lose a sense of identity and John Spellar: It may not be fair, but it is perfectly place. Even within urban areas, there is very often a accurate. The reality is that in neither country has there great sense of identity in parts of a city. They are not all been a shred of evidence of fraud in postal voting or homogeneous. Herbert Morrison described London as personation at the ballot box. a collection of villages. There is a great sense of identity. Again, everyone understands that there will be some Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con): It was not so long ago difficulties at the margins, but to impose arbitrary lines that Richard Mawrey, QC, the electoral commissioner, on far more constituencies than necessary to achieve in a case in Birmingham—Birmingham in the west equalisation is resented, and rightly so. midlands, not Alabama—said that he had heard evidence I come to the argument made by the right hon. of electoral fraud Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) comparing “that would disgrace a banana republic”. Basingstoke and Wales. The Boundary Commission, Furthermore, I suggest that Donald Trump was not on when it gets the national registration figures, divides the ballot paper in Slough, where convictions for electoral them up to create a quota. It then allocates the number fraud were made, and Donald Trump was not on the of seats to a region based on that quota. The changes to ballot paper in the London borough of Tower Hamlets, the situation in Wales have nothing whatever to do with where a further conviction on electoral fraud was made. Basingstoke or what happens in the Rhondda, whether 793 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 794

[John Spellar] Tom Randall: I had not realised that EVEL had been cancelled for the moment, but I look forward to its it is 5% or 10%, because the number of seats in Wales—that reinstatement shortly. region’s share—will be fixed by the national quota. Lords amendment 7 would increase the tolerance Incidentally, I would gently point out that in the previous from the proposed plus or minus 5%. I appreciate that Parliament the Conservatives opposed our attempts to that may have been guided by a desire to help maintain have Ynys Môn as a separate constituency when our a sense of place and distinct locality when drawing good friend Albert Owen was the Member of Parliament. constituencyboundaries,butIsubmitthattheGovernment’s Albert retired and the Conservatives unfortunately won proposals are enough to draw fair and equal constituency the seat. Lo and behold! Suddenly, their interest in the boundaries. Secondly, equality and fairness ought to be concerns of Ynys Môn rocketed up.I am sure Conservative an overriding principle, but as with any review, there Members can explain why that change took place. will be scope for communities to have their say, and for Finally, I find strange, and to a degree reprehensible, local ties and considerations to be taken into account as this opposition to trying to get the most complete part of that process. I note that the tolerance proposed register. We know that, not just in the UK but around by the Government is in line with international guidance the world, those who are under-represented on the from the Venice Commission and the OSCE. register are those such as teenagers and people in their Lords amendment 8 proposes two ways in which the early 20s. We know that those who live in private rented completeness of the electoral register might be improved, accommodation are under-registered, and that many of and it is important that as many people who are entitled those in our BME communities and in our inner cities to vote register to do so. are under-represented on the register. We urge councils to spend large sums of money to try to track those people John Spellar: The hon. Gentleman referred to the down and get them to register. Why not take a course of Venice Commission and the OSCE, and that came up action that is straightforward, cost-effective and cheap during our deliberations. They said: to ensure that they are registered? Please do not wrap “The maximum admissible departure from the distribution this up in some great constitutional issue about the divine criterion…should seldom exceed 10% and never 15%”. right to register. Whether people choose to vote is That is the departure, which implies 10% either way. We another matter, but on registration this is about naked are not even asking for that. party political advantage. It is the same in the US, and it is the same here. It is time for this Trumpery to end. Tom Randall: I believe that the guidance sets a maximum, and I think we are within that guidance. I am not sure Tom Randall: May I add my good wishes to my hon. that the conclusions the hon. Gentleman has drawn on Friend the Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith)? that are entirely correct. In life, theory and practice can often be two separate things, and in my relatively short time in Parliament I Mr Rees-Mogg: Just to confirm that the Venice have found that to be the case. In theory, all Members of Commission’s“Code of good practice in electoral matters” Parliament are equal and have the same basic duties, states that the permissible departure from the norm and while I accept that some Members of the House are should not be more than 10%, and I think that is a very perhaps more equal than others, it is a reasonable good point. assumption that we ought to have some of the same basic responsibilities, including the number of constituents Tom Randall: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend we represent. I appreciate that there will be certain for confirming my recollection. Lords amendment 8 geographical challenges to that, such as with island proposes ways in which the completeness of the electoral constituencies, but I believe that general principle should register might be improved. It is important that one hold firm. I suggest that the existing system does not do registers to vote and does so. That should be encouraged; that. To give an extreme example, Milton Keynes South it is one’s civic duty. However, underpinning any civic has 97,000 electors, compared with Newcastle upon duty is the notion that one takes some steps to actually Tyne Central’s 54,000. engage with the process. Registering to vote is now very straightforward: one can, as we have heard, log on to As originally drafted, the Bill would ensure a broad one’s council’s website and do it in a matter of minutes. equality, subject to some tolerance, in the number of While it is good that registration should be easy, it electors in each constituency, so that they are more or should require some degree of citizen participation, less of equal weight. Equality and fairness ought to be which amendment 8 would remove. The amendment an overriding principle on a matter such as this. also fails to recognise the introduction of individual voter registration. David Linden: I agree that we need equality. On that basis, and given that all Members should be equal in 4.30 pm this House, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the I have some practical concerns about what is proposed system of English votes for English laws is currently by amendment 8. Department for Work and Pensions suspended. Will he call on the Government to ensure data has been compiled for an entirely different purpose that that system does not come back, so that his hon. than proposed here, and it is not clear whether that data Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine would translate easily to electoral purposes. Indeed, has (Andrew Bowie) can cast his vote in exact same way as consent been given for data given to the DWP to be him in a Division? used for an entirely different purpose? Might data protection issues arise if that data is used by an entirely different Andrew Bowie: Well said! body? There are also concerns about how up to date any 795 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 796 data would be. The amendment would task registration of instances in Africa and elsewhere in recent weeks, it officers with deciding whether a would-be elector should is all the more important that we are seen to be leading be automatically included on an electoral roll, but there the way with a strong democracy and strong representation is a danger that people could be added on the basis of for people. out-of-date information. Those registered but not eligible Indeed, that view is shared by President-elect Biden, to vote might also be added by mistake. who has been clear about the need for a coming together If automatic voter registration leads to less accurate of global democracies to defend democracy and democratic electoral registers, confidence in the electoral system systems and the rule of law around the world. He called will be diminished, not strengthened. Unsolicited poll for a global summit for democracy, and he rightly said cards sent to households with the highest turnover, such in his speech in Copenhagen in 2018 that “Democracy as student accommodation, could lead to greater voter demands diligence”. That is why it is all the more fraud. Indeed, I submit that it could be a gold mine for important that we are scrutinising the Government on potential electoral fraudsters in certain areas. I propose these measures. that individual voter registration, which helped to create The comments from the Foreign Secretary the other the largest ever register for the 2017 election, and which day were deeply disappointing when he refused to agree is a relatively new concept, continues to be monitored with the importance of counting all the votes. It was and, if necessary, finessed. extraordinary that he had to be asked that question I also do not accept Lords amendment 6, which multiple times by Sophy Ridge at the weekend. That would amend the provisions for appointing boundary was an extraordinary example to set. It was particularly commissioners. Across Government, many public disappointing to hear the comments today from the appointments are made, and they are made under the Leader of the House and the right hon. Member for governance code on public appointments, regulated by Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) about fraud and the Commissioner for Public Appointments, whom I so-called ghost votes. As hon. Members, including my had the pleasure to hear from shortly after my election right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (John Spellar), to the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs have said, that is Trumpian language and it has no place Committee. These public appointments are made in a in our democracy. It is also not borne out by the clear fair and trusted way, and it is unclear to me why facts and the evidence in the Electoral Commission’s boundary commissioners should be treated entirely report of 30 September this year, which stated: separately from any other public body, with a conflicting “The UK has low levels of proven electoral fraud.” appointments system. In any event, the deputy chairman of the commission will be a High Court judge who will It reported that in all the elections that took place in have been through a rigorous process to achieve that 2019, including many local elections and, of course, the position. general election, there were just three instances of proven electoral fraud and just one caution out of all of those. Finally, on Lords amendments 1 and 2, I believe that The report went on to state: regular reviews are important. In urban areas particularly, “There remains no evidence of large-scale electoral fraud the number of people living in a neighbourhood can in 2019.” change considerably over a short period of time, and constituency boundaries must reflect that. However, I would therefore caution the Leader of the House, the there is a competing need for some continuity.Constantly right hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell and others shifting boundaries are confusing for the average voter, who seek to use those words to stir up the idea that who might not be an assiduous follower of politics. there is fraud or ghost voting, that this is deeply concerning Assuming a general election every five years—I appreciate and does not reflect the facts on the ground. It is very that that is rather a large assumption these days—an much the type of language and the sort of nonsense we eight-year review will generally mean that updated hear from Nigel Farage, Donald Trump and others, and constituencies are in place for two general elections and I am afraid that their time is coming to an end. are then reviewed for the third. I understand that it has I want to turn to some of the specific points in the been said that that has some support from parliamentary Lords amendments. First, on the question about the parties. I am unclear on what an increase of the review commissioners, it is crucial that the independence and time to 10 years will meaningfully achieve. Based on integrity of the process is respected by individual citizens recent history, it would not cause a neat alignment across the country, and that we do not have the Lord between boundary reviews and election dates, even with Chancellor appointing the commissioners.Wehave already the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, which might not be seen that the Lord Chancellor was willing to put his with us for very long. While I cannot support these principles to one side when it came to the rule of law amendments, I look forward to the Bill proceeding and over the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, and I to the fairer Parliament that will result. therefore do not have much confidence in him or other members of the Executive having oversight of that Stephen Doughty: I stand to speak to the amendments process, particularly when the other parliamentary and to a number of the points raised in relation to safeguards are being removed from the process. It is them. It is vital that we have this debate, not least in the crucial that we have boundary commissioners who are light of the events of the past few days in the United independent and who maintain the confidence not only States and elsewhere but also because the security and of the public but of all those who stand for elected sanctity of our democracy and ensuring that it thrives is office,whatever their political party and whatever legislature, important not only for our own country, but is vital for including this House, they are standing for. the example that we set a globally. When democracy, Secondly, I want to refer to the questions about human rights and the rule of law are under threat electoral registration. I have to say that we again heard around the world, as we have tragically seen in a number some erroneous information from the right hon. Member 797 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 798

[Stephen Doughty] the Leader of the House misinterprets the guidance from the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe. for Elmet and Rothwell on this. I heard what my right I have read it and it is clear that departure from the hon. Friend the Member for Warley (John Spellar) said specified point should seldom be 10% and definitely earlier.I like the right hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell, should not be over 15%. We are talking about 7.5%. but he was simply wrong. He asked to be corrected, and Evidence has been heard not only in respect of this I will correct him: there have been fines for the non-return Bill—I looked at that—but in previous Committee hearings of electoral canvass forms since the Representation of in the House. For example, in 2014-15 the Political and the People Act 1918. Whether or not those fines are Constitutional Reform Committee was clear on this enforced is another matter, but the law is very clear. I issue, as was the evidence from the Boundary Commission have just had my electoral registration canvass form for England itself about the difficulties for the boundary come through. The Welsh Government and our councils commissioners. I put on the record my thanks to all the are doing their job before the crucial Senedd elections in staff who are involved in what is a very difficult process. May, and a big caution is set out clearly on the front They do an excellent job that is not easy—it is extremely saying that we must return the form and not ignore it. It complex and complicated—and I praise them for the is also made clear that we must not provide false work that they do. information, and that there will be penalties for those There are specific issues in relation to Wales and who do so. We ought to be taking steps to strengthen geography, as indeed there are in certain other parts of and enhance our electoral registration systems in whatever the UK. It is absolutely right that distinct geographical way is possible. exemptions are made for Ynys Môn, the Isle of Wight Andrew Bowie: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely and Na h-Eileanan an Iar—I do not know whether I right to say that not returning a form that has been sent have pronounced that correctly; my Welsh pronunciation to someone is an offence that they can be fined for. is a lot better than my Gaelic—because of water boundaries However, it is not an offence not to voluntarily register and islands, but distinctions also need to be made in to be on the electoral register, which is exactly the point relation to, for example, valley boundaries and mountains, that my right hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and which really do split constituencies. Rothwell was making earlier. We can end up with some very odd circumstances. We are not saying that the tolerances should be used as a Stephen Doughty: But surely the whole point is that matter course, just that the allowance should be there we should be encouraging people to take part in the when it is a common-sense decision for the benefit and democratic system, particularly our younger people. I integrity of communities. I think of the circumstance in have mentioned 16 and 17-year-olds in Wales, and I my own constituency in respect of the boundary review welcome the fact that the Senedd has passed our Senedd that was not put into place: the Cardiff bay barrage was and Elections (Wales) Act 2020, which makes amendments split between three constituencies, thereby splitting apart to the Representation of the People (England and Wales) the docks communities of Cardiff bay that sit together. Regulations 2001 to bring in that right. It is right that A person would literally have passed through three young people should have a voice in our democracy. I communities as they walked along the barrage, which is have supported amendments on that in relation to this only about 1 km long. It was absurd. We have to allow place on many occasions. the boundary commissioners to take such things into account. John Spellar: I would just point out to my hon. I have made the points that I wanted to make on the Friend that when a council is not sure who is living at a Lords amendments, so let me return to what President-elect particular address, or if it knows that someone has Biden said: moved, it will send the form to “the occupier”, which will still have the same legal effect. Assuming that “Democracy is the root of our society, the wellspring of our power, and the source of our renewal. It strengthens and amplifies councils are doing their job and sending forms to all our leadership to keep us safe in the world. It is the engine of our residences, that covers the point. ingenuity that drives our economic prosperity.” Stephen Doughty: Absolutely. My right hon. Friend Those are words that I completely endorse and that we has made strong points on that issue. I suggest that should have in our minds as we consider these important people look at the excellent House of Commons Library matters relating to our democracy. I support the position briefing on this issue that sets out all the information that we are taking on the Lords amendments. clearly. Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con): I David Linden: Just to clarify, the Conservatives are add my well-wishes to the Minister for the Constitution saying that it is okay to break that law in a very “specific and Devolution, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich and limited” way. North (Chloe Smith). She was an integral part of the process in the Bill Committee and will be sadly missed Stephen Doughty: I am not going to put assertions in during this process, but we look forward to seeing her the mouth of the right hon. Member for Elmet and again soon. Rothwell—that would not be right for me to do—but At the beginning of October, the NHS Track and the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) has Trace app told me that I had to self-isolate for 12 days. made his point. It was inconvenient, yes, but it did mean that on 8 October Let me turn briefly to Wales, which will lose out in I was at home, glued to BBC Parliament as their lordships terms of the number of constituencies. We all support the considered the Bill on Report in the other place, my principle of bringing greater equality among constituencies, psephological exuberance undiminished—possibly even but the point about Wales is really important. I think enhanced—by my isolation. 799 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 800

I shall speak to their lordships’ amendments in turn. to promote their own ideology and contorted every Some are predictably partisan and an attempt to achieve convention in this place to frustrate the settled will what their colleagues were unable to do in this place; of the British people. This kind of patronage is not others are genuine attempts to improve the workings of appropriate.Although Ministers currently formally appoint the Bill, although I do not believe that they would all commissioners, that is only done after a rigorous, fair and actually manage that goal. open recruitment process that is conducted under the As we have heard, Lords amendments 1 and 2 seek to Government’s code and is regulated by the Commissioner change the proposed cycle of reviews to once every for Public Appointments. Lords amendment 6 would 10 years rather than once every eight. The rationale remove that safeguard, so I will not support it. offered by Lord Foulkes of Cumnock was that this is to I am also far from satisfied that limiting commissioners enable MPs to to a single non-renewable term is a wise move. Boundary “get to know their constituency”.—[Official Report, House of reviews are highly technical, and it strikes me as somewhat Lords, 8 October 2020; Vol. 806, c. 714.] bizarre that their lordships are pushing for in-built Quite what Lord Foulkes thinks we have been doing in obsolescence. Surely institutional memory is an advantage. the interim is a mystery to me. I humbly suggest that if a Lords amendment 7 is an example of that other Member has not managed to establish themselves in a species of amendment—the partisan. We rejected a constituency after eight years, an extra 24 months will similar Opposition amendment in Committee, and we not make much difference. I chuckled when Lord Rennard articulated quite properly the reason that 5% variance began his oration in support of that amendment by from the mean was appropriate, fair and practical. I saying: reiterate the belief among Government Members that “I would like you to imagine the position of a newly elected splitting wards in England, as the commission in Scotland MP in a general election in 2025.”—[Official Report, House of does there, will address the challenges around the larger Lords, 8 October 2020; Vol. 806, c. 714.] ward sizes in metropolitan boroughs—what I have called Of course, the noble gentleman would have to imagine, the martini paradox. I encourage the English commission wouldn’t he? He set out a scenario whereby a newly to prepare postcode-level data to enable this as a matter elected MP would have won their seat on one set of of priority. boundaries, and just four years later, they would be engaged in a two-year process to reset those boundaries, David Linden: Does the hon. Gentleman therefore which would define the seat they contested next time. regret that the amendment that I tabled in Committee Lord Rennard made an impassioned entreaty on behalf to that very effect was not supported by his own of these poor, doe-eyed freshman MPs: how would they Government? cope? Well, I am just 11 months into the job and engaging in that very process right now. I can assure our Chris Clarkson: I will stand to be corrected by the noble friends that my colleagues and I are quite capable hon. Gentleman, but was that not a probing amendment, of keeping pace without their assistance. which he withdrew?

4.45 pm David Linden: The hon. Gentleman is right, but the The quality of our democracy should not be tempered Minister said that it was not something that the Government for the convenience of hon. Members who might not be were willing to entertain. The fundamental point is that putting in the hard work. In most cases, eight years will the Conservative Government do not support that principle. enable a review in every other Parliament and will reduce the chances of radical change by keeping on top Chris Clarkson: The hon. Gentleman can find out my of the figures. Although seemingly simple, the addition views over a glass of wine once the Smoking Room of two years to the process could see some sets of reopens. boundaries in place over three Parliaments, leading us I am afraid that the argument that a wider variance back to the situation we have now, with a 57,000-voter will minimise disruption is entirely specious. We know disparity between the smallest and largest mainland that regions will differ in the number of seats necessitating electorates. significant change across the piece, and I demonstrated Lords amendments 3 and 5 are simple and sensible, in Committee that even if there had been a 15% variance— setting out a revised timescale for reports to the commission. the maximum allowed under the Venice Commission—my As I understand that the Government will accept these right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) amendments, I shall not labour the point beyond thanking and I would still have been representing seats outwith their lordships for this improvement. the permitted tolerance. Such is the outdated nature of Lords amendment 6 is one of those species of the current constituencies that I was not eligible to vote amendments to which I referred earlier—that is, well- when the boundaries of my seat were last approved. intentioned, but ultimately not an improvement. I thank That brings me neatly to Lords amendment 8. There my noble friend Lord Hayward, who I know is watching, is a marvellous American expression: “Decisions are made for an extremely engaging discussion on this amendment by the people who show up.” However well-intentioned that helped to clarify my thinking. He and I both have this amendment might be, I fear that it misses the point. real trouble with the idea of members of a selection We would all like to see greater participation in our panel for commissioners being appointed by the Speaker. democracy, but the right way to do that is not simply to Although I think that we can all agree that the current add everyone’s name to the register. Individual electoral holder of that office is a fair and honourable man who registration was brought in to combat electoral fraud, is capable of discharging his role in an even-handed and and I fully support that. I appreciate Opposition Members dispassionate way, one need not look too far back in say that there have only been nine instances of fraud, time to find an example of someone who used the office but that is nine too many. 801 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 802

Alec Shelbrooke: Nine proved. how out of date the current boundary proposals are. The situation in my constituency is nowhere near that Chris Clarkson: Quite right. Someone’s choice to of Linlithgow and East Falkirk, which now has 86,000 exercise their franchise should be a positive affirmation electors, whereas Glasgow East has about 54,000. and a conscious choice. If we want more people to vote, [Interruption.] Sorry, I meant Glasgow North, and I we should be increasing awareness and improving education. apologise deeply to the hon. Member for Glasgow East Simply adding names to a register will not increase (David Linden). We can therefore see that this Bill is participation and could lead to a form of stealth much-needed. malapportionment, whereby certain constituencies would As I say, the Bill is about equality and fairness. On appear on paper to have an on-quota electorate, only Lords amendment 7, although the difference between for the number of people actively voting to be akin to a 95% and 97% might not seem much on the face of it, it rotten borough. poses a huge difference in the size of constituencies. We Extrapolating, estimating or automatically registering are talking about a 15% tolerance; it would not be just people is not an answer. We know from countries such 7.5%, but 7.5% either way, and so the difference would as Canada—which, by any measure, we must consider a be 15%. That could allow some constituencies to have mature democracy and one with which we would like to up to 78,000 electors, which is slightly above where mine be compared—that automatic registration has not been is, and others to have as few as 67,000. Surely, any effective and there are high levels of dissatisfaction with Member of this House would see that as unpalatable the accuracy of preliminary lists. and unfair, and something we should combat. I have no doubt that their lordships have sent us back I am going to move on quickly to Lords amendment 8, a Bill that they consider to be improved. Some of them as I know we have a lot of speakers and we need to get will be drawing on their own experiences as Members of through this. Everybody in this House who is involved this place, and I must thank them for their time and in the democratic process, at whatever level, wants to consideration, while politely disagreeing with all but see higher turnouts in elections and more engagement new clause 2. The Bill will enable a much-needed review in the political process, but it is also a right of any of constituencies, some of which are 20 years out of citizen in this country to choose not to take part in the date, and it will do so in a fair and robust way. The next political process. Although the right hon. Member for general election should take place on the basis of boundaries Warley (John Spellar) might have been right to say that that lend equal weight to every voter, and we have the it is an offence for someone not to return an electoral means before us to enable that now. registration form if they have been sent one, it is not an offence not to volunteer to go on to the electoral Andrew Bowie: It is a privilege to follow my hon. register. It is up to us all to encourage people across this Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Chris country to get involved, to register, to vote or to join a Clarkson) and his passionate defence of the Government political party, but it is surely not incumbent on this position and opposition to the majority of the Lords Government or any Government—in fact, I think that amendments. It is also a pleasure to join so many of my it would be a rather dangerous path to go down—to colleagues in sending best wishes to one of the most insist that every single citizen in this country is automatically liked Members of the House, my hon. Friend the Member put on the electoral roll. I think that would be dangerous for Norwich North (Chloe Smith). We send her our best and damaging, and as I have said, it is a fundamental wishes for a speedy recovery and we cannot wait to see principle that people get to choose whether or not they her back at the Dispatch Box. I will not start to compare the engage. performances of Ministers in Her Majesty’s Government, I will finish where I began. This is about fairness and but I am sure that the Leader of the House would agree about equality. This Government are determined to that she would have given a stellar performance at the make sure that every voter in this country counts for the Dispatch Box today to which he could only aspire. same as the next one, and that is why I oppose the Lords What we are trying to do today is based on two amendments, with the exception of Lords amendment 2. fundamental principles, those of fairness and equality. I support the Government’s position in trying to get this This Government and the Conservative party believe Bill through as quickly as possible. It is a simple and that every vote in this one nation, this United Kingdom, necessary Bill, and one that is very much overdue. should, as far as is possible, count as much as the next. It is essential if we are to stand here with any semblance Wendy Chamberlain: May I start by re-echoing the of respectability in the eyes of the public that they know comments of Members from across the House in wishing that we are here with as much right as the next Member the Minister for the Constitution and Devolution well of Parliament, representing, as closely as is possible, the at this difficult time? I hope her treatment progresses same number of electors as the next person in here. well. That is the aim of the Bill and it is why we are driving I would like to speak in favour of all eight Lords towards a new boundary review. amendments. The Bill has been much improved since it In Scotland’s case, such a review is nearly 20 years left the House back in July, and I am pleased the overdue. My beautiful West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine Government have supported Lords amendments 3 to 5, constituency came about as a result of the 2004 boundary but I am particularly keen, in the time I have, to touch review Scotland process. My constituency’s population on Lords amendments 7 and 8. has increased from 81,000 in 2004 to 97,000 today, with On the flexibility quota, all the evidence suggests the electorate increasing from about 61,500 to 72,000. that a 5% quota will lead to huge upheaval. Just one in Although that places it slap bang in the middle of the five constituencies will remain the same and about range the Bill proposes, it shows the difference between two thirds risk being changed completely. That presents where we are now and where we were 20 years ago and a huge change to our parliamentary map, as we head 803 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 804 into 2024, which we all know is just over three years We must ask how important those ties are compared away. An end to the pandemic might be in sight, given with the goal of numerical equality. Not only will yesterday’s good news, but the economic damage will 7.5% prevent excessive disruption, but it will allow the still be being felt in two years’ time, so I ask whether it is boundary commissioners better to account for those responsible to unleash a wave of reselection battles other factors. Given the arguably small difference, which between Members of Parliament—although likely to be is within the norms mentioned by the Leader of the on the Government side of the House—once the new House, that seems like a reasonable compromise. boundaries have been unveiled and many MPs find that Secondly, I wish to discuss Lords amendment 8, a their constituency has been significantly changed. The cross-party amendment tabled by Lord Shutt of Greetland, 2013 boundary review caused such disquiet that it was which received significant support in the other place. rejected by this House for exactly that reason, and the As hon. Members have mentioned and are aware, the report from 2018 was not even laid before the House Liberal Democrat peer Lord Shutt sadly passed away at because there was no chance it would have been passed. the end of October, just a few weeks after steering this On the automaticity conditions in the Bill, Members amendment through the House of Lords. David was a must realise that this is really the last chance to scrutinise no-nonsense politician and a proud Yorkshireman and the Bill as it stands. Once the touch paper is lit, that is was passionate about democracy and electoral reform— the end of our role in this process. displayed through his excellent chairmanship of the committee that considered the Electoral Registration Today, on Report and on Second Reading, I think and Administration Act 2013. Its report originally proponents of both the 7.5% and 5% flexibility conditions recommended this amendment. It is fitting that, as a have been mischaracterised. Some Members are talking Liberal Democrat, his last political act was championing as though 5% is the ideal of electoral equality, while the representation of young people. His friends and 7.5% is at exactly the other end of the scale, but the family, including many people across the Houses and truth is that they are variations on a theme: 5% will not parties, will miss him dearly. mean complete equality between voters, and 7.5% will not mean that voters in one constituency have far more of a say than those in another. 5 pm It is disappointing that the Government want to remove On Second Reading, the right hon. Member for this amendment. They say that they want to register Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), who is no longer in her place, attainers. In fact, the Government’s stated aim is a pointed out that her constituency has 83,000 electors, complete register and I would argue that it is up to while mine has 61,000. There is significant variability in people whether they choose to vote, not whether they my own constituency related to the University of Saint are registered to do so. The Government place much Andrews and the registration of students at their term-time emphasis on doing their civic duty and one example is addresses, but it is right that inequity should be addressed, that electoral registers are used to identify people for and there are many more examples across the country jury service.Yet registrations for attainers have declined from of similar cases. a rate of 45% in 2015 to only 25% in 2019. Additional It is important to remember that whether we adopt measures are taken in other parts of the UK, most 5% or 7.5%, the constituencies I have mentioned, including notably—supported by the Government—in Northern my own, become more equal, but there will still be Ireland. In the United States, young people have turned variation under either quota, and we account for that out in much bigger proportions for the first time and variation because we accept that strict numerical equality is that can only be a good thing for democracy. We should not the only basis on which to draw up constituencies. all be determined to increase the franchise commitment We recognise that other factors are important and to our young people. should be taken into consideration, such as language, During Report stage I tabled an amendment designed geography, cultural ties, and these are all on the statute to capture all eligible voters in the boundary review. I book. For a small handful of constituencies, we judge was not satisfied with the Government’s response that these factors to be so important that we have they were doing all they can to ensure that the electoral decided that numerical equality should not apply to register is complete. Eight million people are missing. them at all. Just 66% of 18 and 19-year-olds are registered, compared One of the arguments regularly put forward in relation with more than 94% of over-65s. As the late Lord Shutt to first past the post is the politics of place. Strict numerical pointed out, the Minister is desperate for near-precision equality arguably makes that much harder to achieve. I in prescribing all boundaries to be within 5% of the would argue—I know you are conscious of time, Madam average size, but the baseline and building blocks are in Deputy Speaker—that if we want to achieve politics of danger of being wildly imprecise if the bulk of young place and equality of voters, we should look for a more people is omitted from the registers. representative voting system in the first place. I find it This amendment requires the Government to lay strange that the Government are insisting that, for the proposals to improve the completeness of the register—one rest of the country, we should impose numerical equality of their stated aims. That is something to which the so strict that it will be difficult for the Boundary Commission Government are committed and they have a chance to properly to take these factors of geography and cultural prove that today.As a Member of Parliament, I represent ties into account. That is not just the view of Opposition and support everyone who lives in North East Fife, not Members. I note that the 7.5% condition is included in simply those registered to vote there. the Private Member’s Bill of the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Sir Peter Bone), no doubt because he Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): recognises the disruption that 5% will cause to such a Like many hon. Members I send my best wishes to my high proportion of existing boundaries. right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North 805 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 806

[Mr Richard Holden] I fully support Lords amendment 7, with my reasoning very different from that of the hon. Member for North (Chloe Smith). She has been a friend for many years West Durham (Mr Holden), who I see is no longer in and I know that the thoughts of the whole House are his place. It would widen the deviation from the quota with her and wishing for her swift recovery. for constituency electorates from 5% to 7.5%—not 10%. My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke During the Bill’s evidence session, the secretariat of the (Mrs Miller) and my hon Friends the Members for Gedling Boundary Commission for England stated that it makes it (Tom Randall), Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke), “much harder to have regard to the other factors…such as the Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson), and West importance of not breaking local ties, and having regard to local authority boundaries and features of natural geography. Basically, Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) have … all made excellent points, echoing many of the points the smaller you make the tolerance, the fewer options we have The larger you make it, the more options we have and the more that I wish to make. On Lords amendment 1, I agree flexibility we have to have regard to the other factors”.––[Official with my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Report, Parliamentary Constituencies Public Bill Committee, 18 June Middleton. I cannot understand, when we are seeing 2020; c. 7, Q3.] huge population growth and massive development in I am a firm believer that constituency boundaries should some constituencies, why one would want to have 10 years mirror the communities they represent. We know that rather than eight. When I stood for the council in Tower boundaries that cut across several councils and geographical Hamlets in 2008, I remember looking at the huge differences borders, including valleys, mountains and rivers, do not in population growth in east London that had occurred fit local people’s community ties and make it difficult as a result of massive regeneration. That threw out not for us to represent our areas effectively. only council wards but some parliamentary constituencies by tens of thousands. An increase in the tolerance size is supported by international best practice, which recommends that Most of my comments today relate to Lords flexibility should be worked into the system to allow for amendment 7—or,for reasons that will become self-evident, consideration of geography and community ties. Based what I call the Borat amendment. As the Venice on an algorithm prediction by Electoral Calculus—I Commission outlines in its core principle, the equality know it is a prediction—my seat would be redrawn to of voting power is a crucial standard of the concept of have a ridiculous divide between parts of Jarrow south electoral integrity. That is important. There has been of the River Tyne and parts of North Tyneside north of much talk about tolerance today, but it is a tolerance the River Tyne. That would affect not just my constituency around a mean. Seven and a half per cent on either side but neighbouring constituencies as well. Those predictions makes a difference of 15% and that is a significant aim to satisfy the main legislative constraints of 250 change from 10%. Page 21 of the Venice Commission’s parliamentary seats, with each of those seats having an 2017 report highlights two nations. One is Malta, whose electorate within 5% of the national average. That is a constitution allows no more than 5% departure on prime example of what the secretariat of the Boundary either side of the average in order to take account of Commission for England meant when it stated geographical vicinity. However, Kazakhstan allows … 15% tolerance. Britain is in exactly the right place when “the smaller the tolerance, the fewer options we have”. it is more aligned to Maltese rules on different constituency I will also support Lords amendment 8, which, while sizes than it is to Kazakhstan’s rules. not giving 16 and 17-year-olds a vote, would take a big step towards improving registration rates among young What we all want is simple: equal representation as people, increasing electoral engagement and hopefully far as possible, but taking into account reasonable ensuring that more young voices are heard. It would geographical changes. also increase the likelihood that young people participate David Linden: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? in political life from an early age because they would be registered to vote, regardless of whether they choose to Mr Holden: I am speaking only briefly, so I am afraid exercise their right to vote, as many Opposition Members not. Finally, I am glad that the Government have accepted have said. Lords amendment 3, because we all know what happened in I will also support Lords amendments 1 and 2, which the late 1960s when Harold Wilson delayed and delayed require a boundary commission report every 10 years in an attempt to deny democracy and hold Britain rather than the eight envisaged in the unamended back in the 1950s—it did not serve him well. I am glad Bill. Boundary reviews cause uncertainty for councils, the Government are moving forwards and I urge all councillors,local organisations,MPs and—of course—their hon. Members to support the Government tonight. constituents and could mean that most MPs would face a review in every second Parliament. Finally, I will also Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab): I welcome the support Lords amendment 6 as it would put measures Government’s decision to agree to Labour’s call to in place to mitigate the dangerous consequences of scrap plans to reduce the number of MPs to 600. The ending parliamentary scrutiny and oversight. pandemic has shown us that strong and constructive scrutinyof the Government has never been more important, Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): It is a pleasure and the plans to remove 50 seats would have weakened to follow the hon. Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne), our democracy to the advantage of the Executive. I and I join Members from all around the House in stood in this place four or five months ago to stress my sending my best wishes to the Minister for the Constitution concerns about how the original proposals would have and Devolution, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich impacted heavily on the Jarrow constituency, which North (Chloe Smith). She is not only a fantastic Minister, would have gained more wards from neighbouring but an exceptionally kind Member of the House, and Gateshead and lost the Cleadon and East Boldon ward she has been very kind to lots of new Members in to the neighbouring constituency of South Shields. particular. 807 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 808

Tragically, I was not on the Bill Committee, but the I will try to be brief—I also disagree with the other Whips have seen me right on the Order Paper tonight, Lords amendments but I will not elaborate on the as I will be on the Joint Committee on the Fixed-Term reasons why; they are basically the reasons that the Parliaments Act, in which I look forward to engaging Leader of the House set out in his excellent opening with the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden), speech. Finally,just to reiterate my points on automaticity, the right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar), who let this Bill be the last time for a very long time that this is not in his place, and my right hon. Friend the Member House needs to legislate on these matters. The hon. for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller). However, like the Bill Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) Committee, I have spent the last few weeks studying said that this is our last chance and that once we pass maps with arbitrary boundaries, straight lines cutting the Bill, it is done. Well, I say: good, that is how it through the middle of cities,districts drawn in extraordinary should be. Let the convention be re-established that shapes and parts of marginal areas split up by huge boundary changes are a process that should not be lakes. At the end of all that, we do seem to have a clear interfered with by MPs. result, so I warmly congratulate President-elect Joe Biden and Vice-President-elect Kamala Harris on their triumph David Linden: The hon. Gentleman talks about the and achievement, and particularly Kamala Harris’s House not interfering with the Boundary Commission’s achievement as the first woman and first woman of process going forward. Why, then, did the Government colour to succeed to the vice-presidency. not table the Orders in Council that allowed the last I do not make this point just as a joke, but because Parliament to have a vote on those boundary proposals? the present US experience demonstrates some of the real concerns about legislating in this area and the Aaron Bell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his politicisation of boundaries and electoral arrangements. intervention. There are two points. The one from my Politicising these things undermines the independence right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke about of the process. It undermines its integrity, transparency the EU referendum was well made, and I regret to say and fairness and, as we have regrettably seen in the that the Government—I was not a Member at the States, it also tends to undermine the acceptance of the time—probably felt that there were not the votes in the result, which is absolutely fundamental to any democracy. House to get the proposals through. That is principally Here in the UK we have much to be proud of, but we the same reason that the previous review was abandoned. should not be self-satisfied, because the boundaries on I am trying to make the point that we should not rely on which I, my hon. Friend the Member for North West votes in the House to get a boundary review through. A Durham (Mr Holden) and many others were elected boundary review will undoubtedly be bad news for were set in 2006 for England, and that was based on certain Members and good news for others. The hon. data that was even older than that. When I was elected Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) might get a last December, the boundaries were already 13 years lovely SNP ward added to his seat, whereas I might lose out of date. Two subsequent reviews have had to be a lovely rural ward, but it should not be for me to vote abandoned. The first was abandoned, very clearly, on on that with my self-interest at heart. We need to create political grounds, I regret to say—not that it did the a fair, independent process, which is what the Bill does. I Liberal Democrats much good, but there we go. therefore commend it to the House and urge us to reject I strongly welcome the Bill. I particularly welcome its the Lords amendments, with the exception of the ones automaticity and Lords amendments 3, 4 and 5, which on automaticity. strengthen that automaticity. I hope that this will be the last time that I need to debate these matters in the Chamber. Parliament is ultimately sovereign and it needs 5.15 pm to lay out a framework for elections for parliamentary Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): It is constituencies, but once we have a framework, I think a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Newcastle- that process should proceed by clockwork. There should under-Lyme (Aaron Bell). I send my good wishes to the be no parliamentary vote to stop the process that has Minister for the Constitution and Devolution, the hon. been put in place. Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith). I shall briefly speak to a couple of amendments with I listened with great interest and, dare I say it, increasing which I and the Government disagree. Amendments 1 incredulity to the speech by the Leader of the House, and 2 are about the number of years. I think that eight particularly his comments on the appointment of the years is a reasonable cycle length, for the reasons that Boundary Commission, given the context of the vote many of my hon. Friends have given today, and it also that we are to have tonight on the Committee on means that there should be no need for interim reviews. Standards, but also events surrounding the Chair of the They are a complication of the process that I do not Intelligence and Security Committee, the appointment think we need, but given the population growth that we of the Chair of the Liaison Committee, the appointment are seeing, eight years allows us to get reviews on a of the chief executive of Track and Trace and the role of reasonable cycle length. Kate Bingham; the list is endless. I appreciate, however, So many Members have spoken to amendment 7, on that there is a long-overdue need for us to review the tolerance. I am a tolerant man, but I think that 7,000 boundaries. The 2011 proposals were made by a coalition votes is more than enough tolerance between the smallest Government under the leadership of David Cameron, and largest constituencies in the country. An 11,000 but I never understood the desire to reduce the number difference when we have the opportunity to make it less of Members of Parliament from 650 to 600 while than that seems over the top to me. I fundamentally increasing the number of unelected Members in the believe in equal voting power for all Members in this other place to around 800 to 850—I do not quite get place, as far as possible. that, in terms of the argument around democracy. 809 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 810

[Matt Western] of democracy. Lords amendments 7 and 8 are important steps forward in defending and advancing the key principles Given the time, I want to focus on Lords amendments 7 of representation and voting rights in our democratic and 8. Amendment 7 is about the deviation from quota process. from 5% to 7%. I would stress—as has been done widely around the House,certainly by Members on the Opposition I reiterate the important point that I and many others side of the Chamber—the importance of community made on Second and Third Reading of the Bill, and and identity, and relations between those communities. here today, that the Government could still change course on amendment 7, which would widen the variance Warwick and Leamington is a very good example. from quota from 5% to 7.5%. As a boundary geek, When the previous review was undertaken, there were having worked for the Local Government Commission moves to divide the constituency, so that Warwick on ward boundaries, I have done the work of trying to would become part of a constituency with Stratford, make good boundaries. A strict 5% inhibits the ability and Leamington would become part of a constituency of the Boundary Commission to invoke common sense with Kenilworth. If you knew the geography, you would when devising constituencies that protect local ties, say that Warwick and Leamington were twinned; they reflect local authority boundaries and recognise natural are close relations. There is a symbiosis between those topography, as has been said. Whether it is hills, valleys two towns that makes them mutually dependent. That and rivers, or motorways, main roads and green space, desire to change the boundaries would have driven it is really important that we take all of this into those closely linked towns apart. account when creating good constituencies to represent The Council of Europe,through the Venice Commission, our communities. said that the standard permissible tolerance should be plus or minus 10%. I believe that is crucial in understanding From my work experience, I understand how the the communities that we represent, because that is what public respond to well-made and to poor boundaries, it is about—the people, and how they have formed but it is not just the boundaries: as I understand it, it is communities. The 5% rule creates too small a tolerance also sensible and coherent constituencies that recognise to take account of that. Written evidence to the Political local ties, as against those that look strange, that are and Constitutional Reform Committee’s inquiry noted strange and that do not reflect community ties. Giving that the 5% rule caused huge disruption. It noted that that little extra leeway will give the Boundary Commission the reduction in the number of MPs from 650 to 600 was greater scope accurately to group community identities, not a cause of substantial disruption, but it was mostly connections and geographical areas. It is not just to do with the fairness of the vote. We also need to talk about “caused by the introduction of the uniform national quota and the 5% tolerance.” the fairness of the representation when we are elected, recognising, for example, how much more difficult it is In the study of the 2013 review, the Committee found for Members in the valleys of Wales to get around their that the easing of the tolerance to 7% to 9% gave the constituencies compared with those in a condensed commissioners much more flexibility. urban constituency such as my own. Looking at Wales, which has perhaps the most constituencies to lose, the topography and the geography The Government have recognised the principle of are critical. They shape our communities. They shape flexibility in the arrangements that have been made for our economies. It is impossible to understand that when Isle of Wight and Ynys Môn. I hope that that could be you are looking, perhaps, at the levels of Somerset or at recognised further in creating good constituencies, so cities such as London—the way in which those community we could adopt that slightly higher flexibility to avoid ties are formed. The right hon. Member for Basingstoke the ratcheting effect, as I call it—or, as it was nicely put (Mrs Miller) cited Rhondda at 50,000, but we really do earlier today, “the butterfly effect”—where just one have to revisit how the communities, say in the valleys, constituency could have that extra tolerance. It is important are formed. They face one way.They are discrete, distinct to avoid a number of constituencies not accurately communities. We must not mess with the arbitrary and reflecting their constituents. artificial association. You only have to look at the US I also wish to speak in favour of Lords amendment 8. congressional districts to see exactly what that means. Much has been said about the fact that turnout is Finally,I commend Lords amendment 8, which perhaps healthy for our democracy, which I agree with, and that we might refer to as the Lord Shutt amendment, and the ability to vote is a right, not a privilege. Improving the work that went into it. We must connect with young the completeness of electoral registers by enabling the people. They are so disillusioned by democracy. We Government to ask local authority registration officers must use this opportunity to drive young people’s to add 16-year-olds to the electoral register when they engagement with the political process, That is why that get their NI number, or ensuring that they are provided amendment is fundamentally important, and why I with information on how to apply to join the electoral shall vote for it. register would be a significant step forward in expanding voter registration and would enable greater participation Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab): I will make a among young voters. Although the Government are not few final comments, because many have been made in willing to do the right thing and introduce votes at 16, the Chamber today. The effectiveness and legitimacy of which I am in favour of, improving voter registration for the democratic process is contingent on the public’s young voters is a basic, non-controversial change, which confidence in the processes and the commitment of could see a vital increase in the number of young people elected representatives to upholding its principles. So I voting. I hasten to add that, when others tell me not to agree that a boundary review must go ahead, as the do something, I often think there must be something in current constituency boundaries are two decades old, it. So, young people, think about why they do not want but it is crucial that the review strengthens the functioning to encourage you to be on the electoral register. 811 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 812

Mr Rees-Mogg: I begin by thanking the hon. Member to our debates. I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker, for Luton South (Rachel Hopkins). It is an absolute that I did not notify the hon. Gentleman that I was pleasure to follow her. I used to find that I was very going to mention him, but I hope he will not mind. often in agreement with her distinguished father on I am also relieved that the hon. Member for Glasgow matters relating to the European Union, though it has East, when he read out at the end of his speech my to be said not on anything else. I thank all Members words on an earlier occasion, had not looked through who have contributed to this debate on their lordships’ my speeches on the parliamentary constituencies Bill amendments. It has been a pleasure to be part of this when it was passing through the House in 2010 and important Bill, and I am very grateful for all the kind 2011 and did not quote those back at me. That might words that have been said about my hon. Friend the have been rather more embarrassing. Minister for the Constitution. I will ensure that a copy of Hansard is sent to her so that she knows how highly I come to the right hon. Member for Warley respected and valued she is both as a Member of this (John Spellar) and the hon. Member for Cardiff South House and as a Minister. and Penarth (Stephen Doughty). I am afraid I think they should stand for election to the House of Representatives, I also spoke on Second Reading, and both then and because they seem more interested in American politics now, it has been a genuine pleasure to hear about the than in British politics. Fascinating though that is, this constituencies of hon. Members. In particular, I noted House is concerned with the politics of the United the plea from the hon. Member for Warwick and Kingdom. Leamington (Matt Western), who basically said that he loved his constituency and likes it as it is. I think that The hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy many Members across the House have huge sympathy Chamberlain) is not in her place, but she made the point with that view. It makes these types of debate extremely that there will be an extensive change with the 5% level. difficult for us, because all of us have an enormous That is inevitable because this change has been so long affection for the places that we represent and we have delayed. English constituencies are based on the register incredible ties to them. I did not agree with all of his for 2000 and therefore are 20 years out of date. She speech, but I must confess that I sympathised very made the very fair point that the difference between much with the bit when he was praising his own area. 5% and 7.5% is a variation on a theme, which is why I However, this Bill will meet the Government’s manifesto think we can reasonably, as a House, agree on 5%. It is a commitment to have updated and equal parliamentary matter of getting the balance right. I think 5% is reasonable. boundaries, and I am glad to see that it has broad If I may come to my hon. and right hon. Friends, a support across the House, even though there are differences number of them—my right hon. Friends the Members over some of the details. for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) and for Elmet and Rothwell If I may come to those, I will not try to repeat the (Alec Shelbrooke) and my hon. Friend the Member for points that I covered in my opening remarks, in the Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson)—raised the interests of time, but the shadow Minister, the hon. issue of ward divisions. It is important to note that the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith)¸made Boundary Commission—the independent Boundary a point about young registration. I would point out that Commission—has the ability to use smaller areas, and we have seen a significant number of 18 to 24-year-olds therefore if it wants to use smaller areas to meet the register since online registration came in, with 8 million 5% requirement, it will be able to do so. of them taking the opportunity of that. My right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke The hon. Lady referred to the appointment of the asked the specific question whether,basically,the Boundary deputy chairmen. It is worth reiterating that they are Commission will have to follow the law, to which the High Court judges anyway, so their independence has answer is of course yes, it will have to follow the law, already been proved at the earlier appointment. I do not although in doing so it is independent. She also pointed think we need have any worry about their continued out that Lords amendment 7 basically seeks to undermine independence.The hon. Lady also accused the Government the principle of the Bill by widening it, and if we end up of appointing a crony as the BBC chairman. As the widening it too much, we get away from what we are appointment has not yet been made, I am not sure how trying to achieve. we can have appointed the crony, unless the hon. Lady My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Tom Randall) is accusing the Government of being Billy No Mates, made a telling point about the different purpose of data which may possibly be the case, because no appointment that has been collected. Suddenly using it for one thing has been made. rather than another raises all sorts of problems. He also The hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden), kindly pointed out that the deputy chairmen are already as always, made an extremely charming and well-informed impartial judges, which I reiterate because it is fundamental speech, with his one aim clearly in sight. His one aim is, to the fairness of this process. of course, the independence of Scotland. That is his My hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and view; that is what he campaigns for. I fundamentally Middleton made, I must confess, both a wise and disagree with him, but he always puts his case elegantly entertaining speech and noted the partisanship of some and in the best traditions of this House. I just remind of the amendments. I must confess that we have seen him that there are particular protections for Scotland, through the Opposition’s tricks and noted that the with the regulations relating to constituencies over amendments are partisan, and that is why we will have 5,000 square miles and, of course, the protection of the pleasure in voting against them. Let us be honest about constituency of Na h-Eileanan an Iar. I think that should it: the Opposition know they are partisan too, but they be in entrenched legislation to keep the hon. Member felt they had to make some complaints on a principle—that for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Angus Brendan MacNeil) we should have equal seats—that most people across safely in this House, as he is a great figure and contributor the House agree with. 813 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 814

[Mr Rees-Mogg] Brereton, Jack Fletcher, Nick Bridgen, Andrew Ford, Vicky My hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire Brine, Steve Foster, Kevin and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) pointed out the size of Bristow, Paul Fox, rh Dr Liam his own constituency and the right of people to choose Britcliffe, Sara Francois, rh Mr Mark whether they participate in the electoral process or not. Brokenshire, rh James Frazer, Lucy Browne, Anthony Freeman, George Of course that is a freedom that we have. Bruce, Fiona Freer, Mike I loved the point made by my hon. Friend the Member Buchan, Felicity Fuller, Richard for North West Durham (Mr Holden) that we should Buckland, rh Robert Fysh, Mr Marcus follow Malta, and we must—what a great thing to do. Burghart, Alex Gale, rh Sir Roger Malta is a wonderful place, and one thinks of its Burns, rh Conor Garnier, Mark fantastic history in surviving not one but two sieges, one Cairns, rh Alun Ghani, Ms Nusrat in the 16th century and one in the 20th century. I will Carter, Andy Gibb, rh Nick not say the joke about making a Maltese cross, Madam Cartlidge, James Gibson, Peter Deputy Speaker, as you might think it out of order, and Cash, Sir William Gideon, Jo it is very old and hackneyed. Cates, Miriam Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Caulfield, Maria Glen, John Chalk, Alex Goodwill, rh Mr Robert 5.30 pm Chishti, Rehman Gove, rh Michael My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme Churchill, Jo Graham, Richard (Aaron Bell) argued that eight years was about right, Clark, rh Greg Grant, Mrs Helen and he alludes to a key point that, yes, there will be big Clarke, Mr Simon Grayling, rh Chris changes this time, but if we do it every eight years there Clarke, Theo Green, Chris will be incremental changes in future, and that will Clarke-Smith, Brendan Green, rh Damian make the whole system better and easier to live with. I Clarkson, Chris Griffith, Andrew think we will find that there is a good deal of comfort in Cleverly, rh James Grundy, James Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Gullis, Jonathan that for us. Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Halfon, rh Robert My hon. Friend also noted, quite rightly, that there is Colburn, Elliot Hall, Luke a conflict of interest for MPs voting on boundary Collins, Damian Hammond, Stephen changes, because we all like our constituencies as they Costa, Alberto Hancock, rh Matt are. None of us wishes to lose a bit of our constituency. Courts, Robert Hands, rh Greg Wedo not mind getting new bits—that is quite exciting—but Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Harper, rh Mr Mark losing bits, even bits that do not have a strong majority Crosbie, Virginia Harris, Rebecca for one’s own party, one does not want to do. The Crouch, Tracey Harrison, Trudy relationship between an MP and a constituency is so Daly, James Hart, Sally-Ann fundamental, which is why the principle in the Bill of Davies, David T. C. Hart, rh Simon Davies, Gareth Hayes, rh Sir John more frequent but incremental changes is right. Davies, Dr James Heald, rh Sir Oliver I am grateful for this thorough debate, and for the Davies, Mims Heappey, James reasons I set out earlier, I encourage Members across Davies, Philip Heaton-Harris, Chris the House to support the Government in agreeing to Davis, rh Mr David Henderson, Gordon Lords amendments 3, 4 and 5, and disagreeing with Davison, Dehenna Henry, Darren their lordships in their amendments 1, 2, 6, 7 and 8. Dinenage, Caroline Higginbotham, Antony Dines, Miss Sarah Hinds, rh Damian Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hoare, Simon amendment 1. Docherty, Leo Holden, Mr Richard The House divided: Ayes 348, Noes 268. Donelan, Michelle Hollinrake, Kevin Dorries, Ms Nadine Hollobone, Mr Philip Division No. 163] [5.31 pm Double, Steve Holloway, Adam Dowden, rh Oliver Holmes, Paul AYES Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, John Adams, Nigel Baker, Duncan Drax, Richard Howell, Paul Afolami, Bim Baker, Mr Steve Drummond, Mrs Flick Huddleston, Nigel Afriyie, Adam Baldwin, Harriett Duddridge, James Hudson, Dr Neil Ahmad Khan, Imran Barclay, rh Steve Duguid, David Hughes, Eddie Aiken, Nickie Baron, Mr John Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, Jane Aldous, Peter Baynes, Simon Eastwood, Mark Hunt, Tom Allan, Lucy Bell, Aaron Edwards, Ruth Jack, rh Mr Alister Anderson, Lee Benton, Scott Ellis, rh Michael Javid, rh Sajid Anderson, Stuart Beresford, Sir Paul Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Andrew, Stuart Berry, rh Jake Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkin, Sir Bernard Ansell, Caroline Bhatti, Saqib Eustice, rh George Jenkinson, Mark Argar, Edward Blackman, Bob Evans, Dr Luke Jenkyns, Andrea Atherton, Sarah Blunt, Crispin Evennett, rh Sir David Jenrick, rh Robert Atkins, Victoria Bone, Mr Peter Everitt, Ben Johnson, Dr Caroline Bacon, Gareth Bowie, Andrew Fabricant, Michael Johnson, Gareth Bacon, Mr Richard Bradley, Ben Farris, Laura Johnston, David Badenoch, Kemi Bradley, rh Karen Fell, Simon Jones, Andrew Bailey, Shaun Brady, Sir Graham Fletcher, Katherine Jones, rh Mr David Baillie, Siobhan Braverman, rh Suella Fletcher, Mark Jones, Fay 815 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 816

Jones, Mr Marcus Pawsey, Mark Walker, Sir Charles Wiggin, Bill Jupp, Simon Penning, rh Sir Mike Walker, Mr Robin Wild, James Kawczynski, Daniel Penrose, John Wallace, rh Mr Ben Williams, Craig Kearns, Alicia Percy, Andrew Wallis, Dr Jamie Williamson, rh Gavin Keegan, Gillian Philp, Chris Warburton, David Wood, Mike Knight, rh Sir Greg Pincher, rh Christopher Warman, Matt Wragg, Mr William Knight, Julian Poulter, Dr Dan Watling, Giles Wright, rh Jeremy Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Pow, Rebecca Webb, Suzanne Young, Jacob Lamont, John Prentis, Victoria Whately, Helen Zahawi, Nadhim Largan, Robert Pritchard, Mark Wheeler, Mrs Heather Tellers for the Ayes: Latham, Mrs Pauline Pursglove, Tom Whittaker, Craig Maggie Throup and Leadsom, rh Andrea Quin, Jeremy Whittingdale, rh Mr John David Rutley Leigh, rh Sir Edward Quince, Will Levy, Ian Raab, rh Dominic Lewer, Andrew Randall, Tom NOES Lewis, rh Brandon Redwood, rh John Abbott, rh Ms Diane Cunningham, Alex Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Abrahams, Debbie Daby, Janet Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Richards, Nicola Ali, Rushanara Davey, rh Ed Loder, Chris Richardson, Angela Ali, Tahir David, Wayne Logan, Mark Roberts, Rob Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Davies-Jones, Alex Longhi, Marco Robertson, Mr Laurence Amesbury, Mike Day, Martyn Lopez, Julia Robinson, Mary Anderson, Fleur De Cordova, Marsha Lopresti, Jack Rosindell, Andrew Antoniazzi, Tonia Debbonaire, Thangam Lord, Mr Jonathan Ross, Douglas Ashworth, Jonathan Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Loughton, Tim Rowley, Lee Bardell, Hannah Docherty-Hughes, Martin Mackinlay, Craig Russell, Dean Barker, Paula Dodds, Anneliese Mackrory, Cherilyn Sambrook, Gary Beckett, rh Margaret Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Maclean, Rachel Saxby, Selaine Begum, Apsana Doogan, Dave Mak, Alan Scully, Paul Benn, rh Hilary Dorans, Allan Malthouse, Kit Seely, Bob Betts, Mr Clive Doughty, Stephen Mangnall, Anthony Selous, Andrew Black, Mhairi Dowd, Peter Mann, Scott Shapps, rh Grant Blackford, rh Ian Dromey, Jack Marson, Julie Sharma, rh Alok Blackman, Kirsty Duffield, Rosie May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, rh Alec Blake, Olivia Eagle, Ms Angela Mayhew, Jerome Simmonds, David Blomfield, Paul Eagle, Maria Maynard, Paul Skidmore, rh Chris Bonnar, Steven Eastwood, Colum McCartney, Jason Smith, Chloe Brabin, Tracy Edwards, Jonathan McCartney, Karl Smith, Greg Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Efford, Clive McPartland, Stephen Smith, Henry Brennan, Kevin Elliott, Julie McVey, rh Esther Smith, rh Julian Brock, Deidre Elmore, Chris Menzies, Mark Smith, Royston Brown, Alan Eshalomi, Florence Mercer, Johnny Solloway, Amanda Brown, Ms Lyn Esterson, Bill Merriman, Huw Spencer, Dr Ben Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Evans, Chris Metcalfe, Stephen Spencer, rh Mark Bryant, Chris Farron, Tim Millar, Robin Stafford, Alexander Buck, Ms Karen Farry, Stephen Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stephenson, Andrew Burgon, Richard Fellows, Marion Milling, rh Amanda Stevenson, Jane Butler, Dawn Ferrier, Margaret Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Byrne, Ian Fletcher, Colleen Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Bob Byrne, rh Liam Flynn, Stephen Mohindra, Mr Gagan Stewart, Iain Cadbury, Ruth Fovargue, Yvonne Moore, Damien Streeter, Sir Gary Callaghan, Amy Foxcroft, Vicky Moore, Robbie Stride, rh Mel Cameron, Dr Lisa Foy, Mary Kelly Mordaunt, rh Penny Stuart, Graham Campbell, rh Sir Alan Gardiner, Barry Morris, Anne Marie Sturdy, Julian Campbell, Mr Gregory Gibson, Patricia Morris, David Sunderland, James Carden, Dan Gill, Preet Kaur Morris, James Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Glindon, Mary Morrissey, Joy Syms, Sir Robert Chamberlain, Wendy Grady, Patrick Morton, Wendy Thomas, Derek Champion, Sarah Grant, Peter Mullan, Dr Kieran Timpson, Edward Chapman, Douglas Gray, Neil Mumby-Croft, Holly Tolhurst, Kelly Cherry, Joanna Green, Kate Mundell, rh David Tomlinson, Justin Clark, Feryal Greenwood, Lilian Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tomlinson, Michael Cooper, Daisy Greenwood, Margaret Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tracey, Craig Cooper, Rosie Griffith, Nia Neill, Sir Robert Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Cooper, rh Yvette Gwynne, Andrew Nici, Lia Trott, Laura Corbyn, rh Jeremy Haigh, Louise Nokes, rh Caroline Truss, rh Elizabeth Cowan, Ronnie Hamilton, Fabian Norman, rh Jesse Tugendhat, Tom Coyle, Neil Hanna, Claire O’Brien, Neil Vara, Mr Shailesh Crawley, Angela Hanvey, Neale Offord, Dr Matthew Vickers, Martin Creasy, Stella Hardy, Emma Opperman, Guy Vickers, Matt Cruddas, Jon Harman, rh Ms Harriet Parish, Neil Villiers, rh Theresa Cryer, John Hayes, Helen Paterson, rh Mr Owen Wakeford, Christian Cummins, Judith Healey, rh John 817 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 818

Hendrick, Sir Mark Nandy, Lisa Williams, Hywel Zeichner, Daniel Hendry, Drew Newlands, Gavin Wilson, Munira Hill, Mike Nichols, Charlotte Winter, Beth Tellers for the Noes: Hillier, Meg Nicolson, John Wishart, Pete Bambos Charalambous and Hobhouse, Wera Norris, Alex Yasin, Mohammad Liz Twist Hodge, rh Dame Margaret O’Hara, Brendan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Olney, Sarah Question accordingly agreed to. Hollern, Kate Onwurah, Chi Hopkins, Rachel Oppong-Asare, Abena Lords amendment 1 disagreed to. Hosie, Stewart Osamor, Kate The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Howarth, rh Sir George Osborne, Kate proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Huq, Dr Rupa Oswald, Kirsten proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Hussain, Imran Owatemi, Taiwo Lords amendment 2 disagreed to. Jardine, Christine Owen, Sarah Lords amendments 3, 4 and 5 agreed to. Jarvis, Dan Peacock, Stephanie Johnson, Dame Diana Pennycook, Matthew After Clause 4 Johnson, Kim Perkins, Mr Toby Jones, Darren Phillips, Jess Motion made, and Question put, That this House Jones, Gerald Phillipson, Bridget disagrees with Lords amendment 6.—(Mike Freer.) Jones, rh Mr Kevan Pollard, Luke The House divided: Ayes 352, Noes 263. Jones, Ruth Powell, Lucy Division No. 164] [5.44 pm Jones, Sarah Qureshi, Yasmin Kane, Mike Rayner, Angela AYES Keeley, Barbara Reed, Steve Adams, Nigel Burns, rh Conor Kendall, Liz Rees, Christina Afolami, Bim Cairns, rh Alun Khan, Afzal Reeves, Ellie Afriyie, Adam Campbell, Mr Gregory Kyle, Peter Reeves, Rachel Ahmad Khan, Imran Carter, Andy Lake, Ben Reynolds, Jonathan Aiken, Nickie Cartlidge, James Lammy, rh Mr David Rimmer, Ms Marie Aldous, Peter Cash, Sir William Lavery, Ian Robinson, Gavin Allan, Lucy Caulfield, Maria Law, Chris Rodda, Matt Anderson, Lee Chalk, Alex Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Anderson, Stuart Chishti, Rehman Lewis, Clive Saville Roberts, rh Liz Andrew, Stuart Churchill, Jo Linden, David Shah, Naz Ansell, Caroline Clark, rh Greg Lloyd, Tony Shannon, Jim Argar, Edward Clarke, Mr Simon Lockhart, Carla Sharma, Mr Virendra Atherton, Sarah Clarke, Theo Long Bailey, Rebecca Sheerman, Mr Barry Atkins, Victoria Clarke-Smith, Brendan Lucas, Caroline Sheppard, Tommy Bacon, Gareth Clarkson, Chris Lynch, Holly Siddiq, Tulip Bacon, Mr Richard Cleverly, rh James MacAskill, Kenny Slaughter, Andy Badenoch, Kemi Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey MacNeil, Angus Brendan Smith, Alyn Bailey, Shaun Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Madders, Justin Smith, Cat Baillie, Siobhan Colburn, Elliot Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Jeff Baker, Duncan Collins, Damian Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Nick Baker, Mr Steve Costa, Alberto Malhotra, Seema Smyth, Karin Baldwin, Harriett Courts, Robert Maskell, Rachael Sobel, Alex Barclay, rh Steve Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Matheson, Christian Spellar, rh John Baron, Mr John Crosbie, Virginia Mc Nally, John Stephens, Chris Baynes, Simon Crouch, Tracey McCabe, Steve Stevens, Jo Bell, Aaron Daly, James McCarthy, Kerry Stone, Jamie Benton, Scott Davies, David T. C. McDonagh, Siobhain Streeting, Wes Beresford, Sir Paul Davies, Gareth McDonald, Andy Stringer, Graham Berry, rh Jake Davies, Dr James McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Sultana, Zarah Bhatti, Saqib Davies, Mims McDonald, Stuart C. Tami, rh Mark Blackman, Bob Davies, Philip McDonnell, rh John Tarry, Sam Blunt, Crispin Davis, rh Mr David McFadden, rh Mr Pat Thewliss, Alison Bone, Mr Peter Davison, Dehenna McGinn, Conor Thomas, Gareth Bowie, Andrew Dinenage, Caroline McGovern, Alison Thomas-Symonds, Nick Bradley, Ben Dines, Miss Sarah McKinnell, Catherine Thompson, Owen Bradley, rh Karen Djanogly, Mr Jonathan McLaughlin, Anne Thomson, Richard Brady, Sir Graham Docherty, Leo McMahon, Jim Thornberry, rh Emily Braverman, rh Suella Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. McMorrin, Anna Timms, rh Stephen Brereton, Jack Donelan, Michelle Mearns, Ian Trickett, Jon Bridgen, Andrew Dorries, Ms Nadine Miliband, rh Edward Turner, Karl Brine, Steve Double, Steve Mishra, Navendu Vaz, rh Valerie Bristow, Paul Dowden, rh Oliver Monaghan, Carol Webbe, Claudia Britcliffe, Sara Doyle-Price, Jackie Moran, Layla West, Catherine Brokenshire, rh James Drax, Richard Morden, Jessica Western, Matt Browne, Anthony Drummond, Mrs Flick Morgan, Stephen Whitehead, Dr Alan Bruce, Fiona Duddridge, James Morris, Grahame Whitford, Dr Philippa Buchan, Felicity Duguid, David Murray, Ian Whitley, Mick Buckland, rh Robert Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Murray, James Whittome, Nadia Burghart, Alex Eastwood, Mark 819 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 820

Edwards, Ruth Jack, rh Mr Alister Mullan, Dr Kieran Solloway, Amanda Ellis, rh Michael Javid, rh Sajid Mumby-Croft, Holly Spencer, Dr Ben Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Mundell, rh David Spencer, rh Mark Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murray, Mrs Sheryll Stafford, Alexander Eustice, rh George Jenkinson, Mark Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew Evans, Dr Luke Jenkyns, Andrea Neill, Sir Robert Stevenson, Jane Evennett, rh Sir David Jenrick, rh Robert Nici, Lia Stevenson, John Everitt, Ben Johnson, Dr Caroline Nokes, rh Caroline Stewart, Bob Fabricant, Michael Johnson, Gareth Norman, rh Jesse Stewart, Iain Farris, Laura Johnston, David O’Brien, Neil Streeter, Sir Gary Fell, Simon Jones, Andrew Offord, Dr Matthew Stride, rh Mel Fletcher, Katherine Jones, rh Mr David Opperman, Guy Stuart, Graham Fletcher, Mark Jones, Fay Parish, Neil Sturdy, Julian Fletcher, Nick Jones, Mr Marcus Paterson, rh Mr Owen Sunderland, James Ford, Vicky Jupp, Simon Pawsey, Mark Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Foster, Kevin Kawczynski, Daniel Penning, rh Sir Mike Syms, Sir Robert Fox, rh Dr Liam Kearns, Alicia Penrose, John Thomas, Derek Francois, rh Mr Mark Keegan, Gillian Percy, Andrew Timpson, Edward Frazer, Lucy Knight, rh Sir Greg Philp, Chris Tolhurst, Kelly Freeman, George Knight, Julian Pincher, rh Christopher Tomlinson, Justin Freer, Mike Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Poulter, Dr Dan Tomlinson, Michael Fuller, Richard Lamont, John Pow, Rebecca Tracey, Craig Fysh, Mr Marcus Largan, Robert Prentis, Victoria Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Gale, rh Sir Roger Latham, Mrs Pauline Pritchard, Mark Trott, Laura Garnier, Mark Leadsom, rh Andrea Pursglove, Tom Truss, rh Elizabeth Ghani, Ms Nusrat Leigh, rh Sir Edward Quin, Jeremy Tugendhat, Tom Gibb, rh Nick Levy, Ian Quince, Will Vara, Mr Shailesh Gibson, Peter Lewer, Andrew Raab, rh Dominic Vickers, Martin Gideon, Jo Lewis, rh Brandon Randall, Tom Vickers, Matt Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Lewis, rh Dr Julian Redwood, rh John Villiers, rh Theresa Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Wakeford, Christian Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Lockhart, Carla Richards, Nicola Walker, Sir Charles Gove, rh Michael Loder, Chris Richardson, Angela Walker, Mr Robin Graham, Richard Logan, Mark Roberts, Rob Grant, Mrs Helen Longhi, Marco Robertson, Mr Laurence Wallace, rh Mr Ben Grayling, rh Chris Lopez, Julia Robinson, Gavin Wallis, Dr Jamie Green, Chris Lopresti, Jack Robinson, Mary Warburton, David Green, rh Damian Lord, Mr Jonathan Rosindell, Andrew Warman, Matt Griffith, Andrew Loughton, Tim Ross, Douglas Watling, Giles Grundy, James Mackinlay, Craig Rowley, Lee Webb, Suzanne Gullis, Jonathan Mackrory, Cherilyn Russell, Dean Whately, Helen Halfon, rh Robert Maclean, Rachel Sambrook, Gary Wheeler, Mrs Heather Hall, Luke Mak, Alan Saxby, Selaine Whittaker, Craig Hammond, Stephen Malthouse, Kit Scully, Paul Whittingdale, rh Mr John Hancock, rh Matt Mangnall, Anthony Seely, Bob Wiggin, Bill Hands, rh Greg Mann, Scott Selous, Andrew Wild, James Harper, rh Mr Mark Marson, Julie Shannon, Jim Williams, Craig Harris, Rebecca May, rh Mrs Theresa Shapps, rh Grant Williamson, rh Gavin Harrison, Trudy Mayhew, Jerome Sharma, rh Alok Wood, Mike Hart, Sally-Ann Maynard, Paul Shelbrooke, rh Alec Wragg, Mr William Hart, rh Simon McCartney, Jason Simmonds, David Wright, rh Jeremy Hayes, rh Sir John McCartney, Karl Skidmore, rh Chris Young, Jacob Heald, rh Sir Oliver McPartland, Stephen Smith, Chloe Zahawi, Nadhim Heappey, James McVey, rh Esther Smith, Greg Heaton-Harris, Chris Menzies, Mark Smith, Henry Tellers for the Ayes: Henderson, Gordon Mercer, Johnny Smith, rh Julian Maggie Throup and Henry, Darren Merriman, Huw Smith, Royston David Rutley Higginbotham, Antony Metcalfe, Stephen Hinds, rh Damian Millar, Robin NOES Hoare, Simon Miller, rh Mrs Maria Holden, Mr Richard Milling, rh Amanda Abbott, rh Ms Diane Begum, Apsana Hollinrake, Kevin Mills, Nigel Abrahams, Debbie Benn, rh Hilary Hollobone, Mr Philip Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Ali, Rushanara Betts, Mr Clive Holloway, Adam Mohindra, Mr Gagan Ali, Tahir Black, Mhairi Holmes, Paul Moore, Damien Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Blackford, rh Ian Howell, John Moore, Robbie Amesbury, Mike Blackman, Kirsty Howell, Paul Mordaunt, rh Penny Anderson, Fleur Blake, Olivia Huddleston, Nigel Morris, Anne Marie Antoniazzi, Tonia Blomfield, Paul Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, David Ashworth, Jonathan Bonnar, Steven Hughes, Eddie Morris, James Bardell, Hannah Brabin, Tracy Hunt, Jane Morrissey, Joy Barker, Paula Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hunt, Tom Morton, Wendy Beckett, rh Margaret Brennan, Kevin 821 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 822

Brock, Deidre Grady, Patrick McGovern, Alison Shah, Naz Brown, Alan Grant, Peter McKinnell, Catherine Sharma, Mr Virendra Brown, Ms Lyn Gray, Neil McLaughlin, Anne Sheerman, Mr Barry Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Green, Kate McMahon, Jim Sheppard, Tommy Bryant, Chris Greenwood, Lilian McMorrin, Anna Siddiq, Tulip Buck, Ms Karen Greenwood, Margaret Mearns, Ian Slaughter, Andy Burgon, Richard Griffith, Nia Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Alyn Butler, Dawn Gwynne, Andrew Mishra, Navendu Smith, Cat Byrne, Ian Haigh, Louise Monaghan, Carol Smith, Jeff Byrne, rh Liam Hamilton, Fabian Moran, Layla Smith, Nick Cadbury, Ruth Hanna, Claire Morden, Jessica Smyth, Karin Callaghan, Amy Hanvey, Neale Morgan, Stephen Sobel, Alex Cameron, Dr Lisa Hardy, Emma Morris, Grahame Spellar, rh John Campbell, rh Sir Alan Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, Ian Stephens, Chris Carden, Dan Hayes, Helen Murray, James Stevens, Jo Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Healey, rh John Nandy, Lisa Stone, Jamie Chamberlain, Wendy Hendrick, Sir Mark Newlands, Gavin Streeting, Wes Champion, Sarah Hendry, Drew Nichols, Charlotte Stringer, Graham Chapman, Douglas Hill, Mike Nicolson, John Sultana, Zarah Cherry, Joanna Hillier, Meg Norris, Alex Tami, rh Mark Clark, Feryal Hobhouse, Wera O’Hara, Brendan Tarry, Sam Cooper, Daisy Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Olney, Sarah Thewliss, Alison Cooper, Rosie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Onwurah, Chi Thomas, Gareth Cooper, rh Yvette Hollern, Kate Oppong-Asare, Abena Thomas-Symonds, Nick Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hopkins, Rachel Osamor, Kate Thompson, Owen Cowan, Ronnie Hosie, Stewart Osborne, Kate Thomson, Richard Coyle, Neil Howarth, rh Sir George Oswald, Kirsten Thornberry, rh Emily Crawley, Angela Huq, Dr Rupa Owatemi, Taiwo Timms, rh Stephen Creasy, Stella Hussain, Imran Owen, Sarah Trickett, Jon Cruddas, Jon Jardine, Christine Peacock, Stephanie Turner, Karl Cryer, John Jarvis, Dan Pennycook, Matthew Vaz, rh Valerie Cummins, Judith Johnson, Dame Diana Perkins, Mr Toby Webbe, Claudia Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Kim Phillips, Jess West, Catherine Daby, Janet Jones, Darren Phillipson, Bridget Western, Matt Davey, rh Ed Jones, Gerald Pollard, Luke Whitehead, Dr Alan David, Wayne Jones, rh Mr Kevan Powell, Lucy Whitford, Dr Philippa Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Ruth Qureshi, Yasmin Whitley, Mick Day, Martyn Jones, Sarah Rayner, Angela Whittome, Nadia De Cordova, Marsha Kane, Mike Reed, Steve Williams, Hywel Debbonaire, Thangam Keeley, Barbara Rees, Christina Wilson, Munira Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kendall, Liz Reeves, Ellie Winter, Beth Docherty-Hughes, Martin Khan, Afzal Reeves, Rachel Wishart, Pete Dodds, Anneliese Kyle, Peter Reynolds, Jonathan Yasin, Mohammad Doogan, Dave Lake, Ben Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Zeichner, Daniel Dorans, Allan Lammy, rh Mr David Rimmer, Ms Marie Doughty, Stephen Lavery, Ian Rodda, Matt Tellers for the Noes: Dowd, Peter Law, Chris Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Bambos Charalambous and Dromey, Jack Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Saville Roberts, rh Liz Liz Twist Duffield, Rosie Lewis, Clive Eagle, Ms Angela Linden, David Question accordingly agreed to. Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Eastwood, Colum Long Bailey, Rebecca Lords amendment 6 disagreed to. Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Caroline The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Efford, Clive Lynch, Holly proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Elliott, Julie MacAskill, Kenny proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Elmore, Chris MacNeil, Angus Brendan Eshalomi, Florence Madders, Justin Esterson, Bill Mahmood, Mr Khalid After Clause 5 Evans, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Motion made, and Question put, That this House Farron, Tim Malhotra, Seema disagrees with Lords amendment 7.—(Eddie Hughes). Farry, Stephen Maskell, Rachael Fellows, Marion Matheson, Christian The Committee divided: Ayes 345, Noes 266. Ferrier, Margaret Mc Nally, John Division No. 165] [5.58 pm Fletcher, Colleen McCabe, Steve Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry AYES Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Adams, Nigel Allan, Lucy Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Afolami, Bim Anderson, Lee Gardiner, Barry McDonald, Stuart C. Afriyie, Adam Anderson, Stuart Gibson, Patricia McDonnell, rh John Ahmad Khan, Imran Andrew, Stuart Gill, Preet Kaur McFadden, rh Mr Pat Aiken, Nickie Ansell, Caroline Glindon, Mary McGinn, Conor Aldous, Peter Argar, Edward 823 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 824

Atherton, Sarah Docherty, Leo Hollinrake, Kevin Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Atkins, Victoria Donelan, Michelle Hollobone, Mr Philip Mohindra, Mr Gagan Bacon, Gareth Dorries, Ms Nadine Holloway, Adam Moore, Damien Bacon, Mr Richard Double, Steve Holmes, Paul Moore, Robbie Badenoch, Kemi Dowden, rh Oliver Howell, John Mordaunt, rh Penny Bailey, Shaun Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, Paul Morris, Anne Marie Baillie, Siobhan Drax, Richard Huddleston, Nigel Morris, David Baker, Duncan Drummond, Mrs Flick Hudson, Dr Neil Morris, James Baker, Mr Steve Duddridge, James Hughes, Eddie Morrissey, Joy Baldwin, Harriett Duguid, David Hunt, Jane Morton, Wendy Barclay, rh Steve Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, Tom Mullan, Dr Kieran Baron, Mr John Eastwood, Mark Jack, rh Mr Alister Mumby-Croft, Holly Baynes, Simon Edwards, Ruth Javid, rh Sajid Mundell, rh David Bell, Aaron Ellis, rh Michael Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Murray, Mrs Sheryll Benton, Scott Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkin, Sir Bernard Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkinson, Mark Neill, Sir Robert Berry, rh Jake Eustice, rh George Jenkyns, Andrea Nici, Lia Bhatti, Saqib Evans, Dr Luke Jenrick, rh Robert Nokes, rh Caroline Blackman, Bob Evennett, rh Sir David Johnson, Dr Caroline Norman, rh Jesse Blunt, Crispin Everitt, Ben Johnson, Gareth O’Brien, Neil Bone, Mr Peter Fabricant, Michael Johnston, David Offord, Dr Matthew Bowie, Andrew Farris, Laura Jones, Andrew Opperman, Guy Bradley, Ben Fell, Simon Jones, rh Mr David Parish, Neil Bradley, rh Karen Fletcher, Katherine Jones, Fay Paterson, rh Mr Owen Brady, Sir Graham Fletcher, Mark Jones, Mr Marcus Pawsey, Mark Braverman, rh Suella Fletcher, Nick Jupp, Simon Penning, rh Sir Mike Brereton, Jack Ford, Vicky Kawczynski, Daniel Penrose, John Bridgen, Andrew Foster, Kevin Kearns, Alicia Percy, Andrew Brine, Steve Fox, rh Dr Liam Keegan, Gillian Philp, Chris Bristow, Paul Francois, rh Mr Mark Knight, rh Sir Greg Pincher, rh Christopher Britcliffe, Sara Frazer, Lucy Knight, Julian Poulter, Dr Dan Brokenshire, rh James Freeman, George Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Pow, Rebecca Browne, Anthony Freer, Mike Lamont, John Prentis, Victoria Bruce, Fiona Fuller, Richard Largan, Robert Pritchard, Mark Buchan, Felicity Fysh, Mr Marcus Latham, Mrs Pauline Pursglove, Tom Buckland, rh Robert Gale, rh Sir Roger Leadsom, rh Andrea Quin, Jeremy Burghart, Alex Garnier, Mark Leigh, rh Sir Edward Quince, Will Burns, rh Conor Ghani, Ms Nusrat Levy, Ian Raab, rh Dominic Cairns, rh Alun Gibb, rh Nick Lewer, Andrew Randall, Tom Carter, Andy Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Brandon Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Cartlidge, James Gideon, Jo Lewis, rh Dr Julian Richards, Nicola Cash, Sir William Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Richardson, Angela Caulfield, Maria Glen, John Loder, Chris Roberts, Rob Chalk, Alex Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Logan, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Chishti, Rehman Gove, rh Michael Longhi, Marco Robinson, Mary Churchill, Jo Graham, Richard Lopez, Julia Rosindell, Andrew Clark, rh Greg Grant, Mrs Helen Lopresti, Jack Ross, Douglas Clarke, Mr Simon Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Mr Jonathan Rowley, Lee Clarke, Theo Green, Chris Loughton, Tim Russell, Dean Clarke-Smith, Brendan Green, rh Damian Mackinlay, Craig Sambrook, Gary Clarkson, Chris Griffith, Andrew Mackrory, Cherilyn Saxby, Selaine Cleverly, rh James Grundy, James Maclean, Rachel Scully, Paul Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Gullis, Jonathan Mak, Alan Seely, Bob Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Halfon, rh Robert Malthouse, Kit Selous, Andrew Colburn, Elliot Hall, Luke Mangnall, Anthony Shapps, rh Grant Collins, Damian Hammond, Stephen Mann, Scott Sharma, rh Alok Costa, Alberto Hancock, rh Matt Marson, Julie Shelbrooke, rh Alec Courts, Robert Hands, rh Greg May, rh Mrs Theresa Simmonds, David Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Harper, rh Mr Mark Mayhew, Jerome Skidmore, rh Chris Crosbie, Virginia Harris, Rebecca Maynard, Paul Smith, Chloe Crouch, Tracey Harrison, Trudy McCartney, Jason Smith, Greg Daly, James Hart, Sally-Ann McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry Davies, David T. C. Hart, rh Simon McPartland, Stephen Smith, rh Julian Davies, Gareth Heald, rh Sir Oliver McVey, rh Esther Smith, Royston Davies, Dr James Heappey, James Menzies, Mark Solloway, Amanda Davies, Mims Heaton-Harris, Chris Mercer, Johnny Spencer, Dr Ben Davies, Philip Henderson, Gordon Merriman, Huw Spencer, rh Mark Davis, rh Mr David Henry, Darren Metcalfe, Stephen Stafford, Alexander Davison, Dehenna Higginbotham, Antony Millar, Robin Stephenson, Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Hinds, rh Damian Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stevenson, Jane Dines, Miss Sarah Hoare, Simon Milling, rh Amanda Stevenson, John Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holden, Mr Richard Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob 825 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 826

Stewart, Iain Walker, Mr Robin Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Streeter, Sir Gary Wallace, rh Mr Ben Fovargue, Yvonne McDonagh, Siobhain Stride, rh Mel Wallis, Dr Jamie Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Andy Stuart, Graham Warburton, David Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Sturdy, Julian Warman, Matt Gardiner, Barry McDonald, Stuart C. Sunderland, James Watling, Giles Gibson, Patricia McDonnell, rh John Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Webb, Suzanne Gill, Preet Kaur McFadden, rh Mr Pat Syms, Sir Robert Whately, Helen Glindon, Mary McGinn, Conor Thomas, Derek Wheeler, Mrs Heather Grady, Patrick McGovern, Alison Timpson, Edward Whittaker, Craig Grant, Peter McKinnell, Catherine Tolhurst, Kelly Whittingdale, rh Mr John Gray, Neil McLaughlin, Anne Tomlinson, Justin Wiggin, Bill Green, Kate McMahon, Jim Tomlinson, Michael Wild, James Greenwood, Lilian McMorrin, Anna Tracey, Craig Williams, Craig Greenwood, Margaret Mearns, Ian Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Williamson, rh Gavin Griffith, Nia Miliband, rh Edward Trott, Laura Wood, Mike Gwynne, Andrew Mishra, Navendu Truss, rh Elizabeth Wragg, Mr William Haigh, Louise Monaghan, Carol Tugendhat, Tom Wright, rh Jeremy Hamilton, Fabian Moran, Layla Vara, Mr Shailesh Hanna, Claire Morden, Jessica Young, Jacob Vickers, Martin Hanvey, Neale Morgan, Stephen Zahawi, Nadhim Vickers, Matt Hardy, Emma Morris, Grahame Villiers, rh Theresa Tellers for the Ayes: Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murray, Ian Wakeford, Christian Maggie Throup and Hayes, Helen Murray, James Walker, Sir Charles David Rutley Hendrick, Sir Mark Nandy, Lisa Hendry, Drew Newlands, Gavin NOES Hill, Mike Nichols, Charlotte Hillier, Meg Nicolson, John Abbott, rh Ms Diane Clark, Feryal Hobhouse, Wera Norris, Alex Abrahams, Debbie Cooper, Daisy Hodge, rh Dame Margaret O’Hara, Brendan Ali, Rushanara Cooper, Rosie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Olney, Sarah Ali, Tahir Cooper, rh Yvette Hollern, Kate Onwurah, Chi Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hopkins, Rachel Oppong-Asare, Abena Amesbury, Mike Cowan, Ronnie Hosie, Stewart Osamor, Kate Anderson, Fleur Coyle, Neil Howarth, rh Sir George Osborne, Kate Antoniazzi, Tonia Crawley, Angela Huq, Dr Rupa Oswald, Kirsten Ashworth, Jonathan Creasy, Stella Hussain, Imran Owatemi, Taiwo Bardell, Hannah Cruddas, Jon Jardine, Christine Owen, Sarah Barker, Paula Cryer, John Jarvis, Dan Peacock, Stephanie Beckett, rh Margaret Cummins, Judith Johnson, Dame Diana Pennycook, Matthew Begum, Apsana Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Kim Perkins, Mr Toby Benn, rh Hilary Daby, Janet Jones, Darren Phillips, Jess Betts, Mr Clive Davey, rh Ed Jones, Gerald Phillipson, Bridget Black, Mhairi David, Wayne Jones, rh Mr Kevan Pollard, Luke Blackford, rh Ian Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Ruth Powell, Lucy Blackman, Kirsty Day, Martyn Jones, Sarah Qureshi, Yasmin Blake, Olivia De Cordova, Marsha Kane, Mike Rayner, Angela Blomfield, Paul Debbonaire, Thangam Keeley, Barbara Reed, Steve Bonnar, Steven Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kendall, Liz Rees, Christina Brabin, Tracy Docherty-Hughes, Martin Khan, Afzal Reeves, Ellie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dodds, Anneliese Kyle, Peter Reeves, Rachel Brennan, Kevin Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Lake, Ben Reynolds, Jonathan Brock, Deidre Doogan, Dave Lammy, rh Mr David Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Brown, Alan Dorans, Allan Lavery, Ian Rimmer, Ms Marie Brown, Ms Lyn Doughty, Stephen Law, Chris Robinson, Gavin Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dowd, Peter Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Rodda, Matt Bryant, Chris Dromey, Jack Lewis, Clive Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Buck, Ms Karen Duffield, Rosie Linden, David Saville Roberts, rh Liz Burgon, Richard Eagle, Ms Angela Lloyd, Tony Shah, Naz Butler, Dawn Eagle, Maria Lockhart, Carla Shannon, Jim Byrne, Ian Eastwood, Colum Long Bailey, Rebecca Sharma, Mr Virendra Byrne, rh Liam Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Caroline Sheerman, Mr Barry Cadbury, Ruth Efford, Clive Lynch, Holly Sheppard, Tommy Callaghan, Amy Elliott, Julie MacAskill, Kenny Siddiq, Tulip Cameron, Dr Lisa Elmore, Chris MacNeil, Angus Brendan Slaughter, Andy Campbell, rh Sir Alan Eshalomi, Florence Madders, Justin Smith, Alyn Campbell, Mr Gregory Esterson, Bill Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Cat Carden, Dan Evans, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Jeff Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Farron, Tim Malhotra, Seema Smith, Nick Chamberlain, Wendy Farry, Stephen Maskell, Rachael Smyth, Karin Champion, Sarah Fellows, Marion Matheson, Christian Sobel, Alex Chapman, Douglas Ferrier, Margaret Mc Nally, John Spellar, rh John Cherry, Joanna Fletcher, Colleen McCabe, Steve Stephens, Chris 827 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 828

Stevens, Jo Webbe, Claudia Clarke, Theo Green, Chris Stone, Jamie West, Catherine Clarke-Smith, Brendan Green, rh Damian Streeting, Wes Western, Matt Clarkson, Chris Griffith, Andrew Stringer, Graham Whitehead, Dr Alan Cleverly, rh James Grundy, James Sultana, Zarah Whitford, Dr Philippa Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Gullis, Jonathan Tami, rh Mark Whitley, Mick Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Halfon, rh Robert Tarry, Sam Whittome, Nadia Colburn, Elliot Hall, Luke Thewliss, Alison Williams, Hywel Collins, Damian Hammond, Stephen Thomas, Gareth Wilson, Munira Costa, Alberto Hancock, rh Matt Thomas-Symonds, Nick Winter, Beth Courts, Robert Hands, rh Greg Thompson, Owen Wishart, Pete Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Harper, rh Mr Mark Thomson, Richard Crosbie, Virginia Harris, Rebecca Yasin, Mohammad Thornberry, rh Emily Crouch, Tracey Harrison, Trudy Zeichner, Daniel Timms, rh Stephen Daly, James Hart, Sally-Ann Trickett, Jon Tellers for the Noes: Davies, David T. C. Hart, rh Simon Turner, Karl Bambos Charalambous and Davies, Gareth Hayes, rh Sir John Vaz, rh Valerie Liz Twist Davies, Dr James Heald, rh Sir Oliver Davies, Mims Heappey, James Question accordingly agreed to. Davies, Philip Heaton-Harris, Chris Davis, rh Mr David Henderson, Gordon Lords amendment 7 disagreed to. Davison, Dehenna Henry, Darren The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Dinenage, Caroline Higginbotham, Antony proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Dines, Miss Sarah Hinds, rh Damian proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hoare, Simon Docherty, Leo Holden, Mr Richard 6.11 pm Donelan, Michelle Hollinrake, Kevin More than three hours having elapsed since the Dorries, Ms Nadine Hollobone, Mr Philip commencement of proceedings on consideration of Lords Double, Steve Holloway, Adam amendments, the proceedings were interrupted (Programme Dowden, rh Oliver Holmes, Paul Order, this day). Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, John The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question necessary Drax, Richard Howell, Paul for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Drummond, Mrs Flick Huddleston, Nigel time (Standing Order No. 83F). Duddridge, James Hudson, Dr Neil Duguid, David Hughes, Eddie After Clause 6 Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, Jane Eastwood, Mark Hunt, Tom Motion made, and Question put, That this House Edwards, Ruth Jack, rh Mr Alister disagrees with Lords amendment 8.—(Eddie Hughes.) Ellis, rh Michael Javid, rh Sajid The House divided: Ayes 346, Noes 266. Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Division No. 166] [6.12 pm Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkin, Sir Bernard Eustice, rh George Jenkinson, Mark AYES Evans, Dr Luke Jenkyns, Andrea Adams, Nigel Blackman, Bob Evennett, rh Sir David Jenrick, rh Robert Afolami, Bim Blunt, Crispin Everitt, Ben Johnson, Dr Caroline Afriyie, Adam Bone, Mr Peter Fabricant, Michael Johnson, Gareth Ahmad Khan, Imran Bowie, Andrew Farris, Laura Johnston, David Aiken, Nickie Bradley, Ben Fell, Simon Jones, Andrew Aldous, Peter Bradley, rh Karen Fletcher, Katherine Jones, rh Mr David Allan, Lucy Brady, Sir Graham Fletcher, Mark Jones, Fay Anderson, Lee Braverman, rh Suella Fletcher, Nick Jones, Mr Marcus Anderson, Stuart Brereton, Jack Ford, Vicky Jupp, Simon Andrew, Stuart Bridgen, Andrew Foster, Kevin Kawczynski, Daniel Ansell, Caroline Brine, Steve Fox, rh Dr Liam Kearns, Alicia Argar, Edward Bristow, Paul Francois, rh Mr Mark Keegan, Gillian Atherton, Sarah Britcliffe, Sara Frazer, Lucy Knight, rh Sir Greg Atkins, Victoria Brokenshire, rh James Freeman, George Knight, Julian Bacon, Gareth Browne, Anthony Freer, Mike Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Bacon, Mr Richard Bruce, Fiona Fuller, Richard Lamont, John Badenoch, Kemi Buchan, Felicity Fysh, Mr Marcus Largan, Robert Bailey, Shaun Buckland, rh Robert Gale, rh Sir Roger Latham, Mrs Pauline Baillie, Siobhan Burghart, Alex Garnier, Mark Leadsom, rh Andrea Baker, Duncan Burns, rh Conor Ghani, Ms Nusrat Leigh, rh Sir Edward Baker, Mr Steve Cairns, rh Alun Gibb, rh Nick Levy, Ian Baldwin, Harriett Carter, Andy Gibson, Peter Lewer, Andrew Barclay, rh Steve Cartlidge, James Gideon, Jo Lewis, rh Brandon Baron, Mr John Cash, Sir William Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Lewis, rh Dr Julian Baynes, Simon Caulfield, Maria Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Bell, Aaron Chalk, Alex Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Loder, Chris Benton, Scott Chishti, Rehman Gove, rh Michael Logan, Mark Beresford, Sir Paul Churchill, Jo Graham, Richard Longhi, Marco Berry, rh Jake Clark, rh Greg Grant, Mrs Helen Lopez, Julia Bhatti, Saqib Clarke, Mr Simon Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack 829 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 830

Lord, Mr Jonathan Rowley, Lee NOES Loughton, Tim Russell, Dean Abbott, rh Ms Diane Doughty, Stephen Mackinlay, Craig Sambrook, Gary Abrahams, Debbie Dowd, Peter Mackrory, Cherilyn Saxby, Selaine Ali, Rushanara Dromey, Jack Maclean, Rachel Scully, Paul Ali, Tahir Duffield, Rosie Mak, Alan Seely, Bob Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Eagle, Ms Angela Malthouse, Kit Selous, Andrew Amesbury, Mike Eagle, Maria Mangnall, Anthony Shapps, rh Grant Anderson, Fleur Eastwood, Colum Mann, Scott Sharma, rh Alok Antoniazzi, Tonia Edwards, Jonathan Marson, Julie Shelbrooke, rh Alec Ashworth, Jonathan Efford, Clive May, rh Mrs Theresa Simmonds, David Bardell, Hannah Elliott, Julie Mayhew, Jerome Skidmore, rh Chris Barker, Paula Elmore, Chris Maynard, Paul Smith, Chloe Beckett, rh Margaret Eshalomi, Florence McCartney, Jason Smith, Greg Begum, Apsana Esterson, Bill McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry Benn, rh Hilary Evans, Chris McPartland, Stephen Smith, rh Julian Betts, Mr Clive Farron, Tim McVey, rh Esther Smith, Royston Black, Mhairi Farry, Stephen Menzies, Mark Solloway, Amanda Blackford, rh Ian Fellows, Marion Mercer, Johnny Spencer, Dr Ben Blackman, Kirsty Ferrier, Margaret Merriman, Huw Spencer, rh Mark Blake, Olivia Fletcher, Colleen Metcalfe, Stephen Stafford, Alexander Blomfield, Paul Flynn, Stephen Millar, Robin Stephenson, Andrew Bonnar, Steven Fovargue, Yvonne Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stevenson, Jane Brabin, Tracy Foxcroft, Vicky Milling, rh Amanda Stevenson, John Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Foy, Mary Kelly Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Brennan, Kevin Gardiner, Barry Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Iain Brock, Deidre Gibson, Patricia Mohindra, Mr Gagan Streeter, Sir Gary Brown, Alan Gill, Preet Kaur Moore, Damien Stride, rh Mel Brown, Ms Lyn Glindon, Mary Moore, Robbie Stuart, Graham Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Grady, Patrick Mordaunt, rh Penny Sturdy, Julian Bryant, Chris Grant, Peter Morris, Anne Marie Sunderland, James Buck, Ms Karen Gray, Neil Morris, David Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Burgon, Richard Green, Kate Morris, James Syms, Sir Robert Butler, Dawn Greenwood, Lilian Morrissey, Joy Thomas, Derek Byrne, Ian Greenwood, Margaret Morton, Wendy Timpson, Edward Byrne, rh Liam Griffith, Nia Mullan, Dr Kieran Tolhurst, Kelly Cadbury, Ruth Gwynne, Andrew Mumby-Croft, Holly Tomlinson, Justin Callaghan, Amy Haigh, Louise Mundell, rh David Tomlinson, Michael Cameron, Dr Lisa Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tracey, Craig Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hanna, Claire Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Campbell, Mr Gregory Hanvey, Neale Neill, Sir Robert Trott, Laura Carden, Dan Hardy, Emma Nici, Lia Truss, rh Elizabeth Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nokes, rh Caroline Tugendhat, Tom Chamberlain, Wendy Hayes, Helen Norman, rh Jesse Vara, Mr Shailesh Champion, Sarah Hendrick, Sir Mark O’Brien, Neil Vickers, Martin Chapman, Douglas Hendry, Drew Offord, Dr Matthew Vickers, Matt Cherry, Joanna Hill, Mike Opperman, Guy Villiers, rh Theresa Clark, Feryal Hillier, Meg Parish, Neil Wakeford, Christian Cooper, Daisy Hobhouse, Wera Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walker, Sir Charles Cooper, Rosie Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Pawsey, Mark Walker, Mr Robin Cooper, rh Yvette Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Penning, rh Sir Mike Wallace, rh Mr Ben Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hollern, Kate Penrose, John Wallis, Dr Jamie Cowan, Ronnie Hopkins, Rachel Percy, Andrew Warburton, David Coyle, Neil Hosie, Stewart Philp, Chris Warman, Matt Crawley, Angela Howarth, rh Sir George Pincher, rh Christopher Watling, Giles Creasy, Stella Huq, Dr Rupa Poulter, Dr Dan Webb, Suzanne Cruddas, Jon Hussain, Imran Pow, Rebecca Whately, Helen Cryer, John Jardine, Christine Prentis, Victoria Wheeler, Mrs Heather Cummins, Judith Jarvis, Dan Pritchard, Mark Whittaker, Craig Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Dame Diana Pursglove, Tom Whittingdale, rh Mr John Daby, Janet Johnson, Kim Quin, Jeremy Wiggin, Bill Davey, rh Ed Jones, Darren Quince, Will Wild, James David, Wayne Jones, Gerald Raab, rh Dominic Williams, Craig Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, rh Mr Kevan Randall, Tom Williamson, rh Gavin Day, Martyn Jones, Ruth Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Wood, Mike De Cordova, Marsha Jones, Sarah Richards, Nicola Wragg, Mr William Debbonaire, Thangam Kane, Mike Richardson, Angela Wright, rh Jeremy Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Keeley, Barbara Roberts, Rob Young, Jacob Docherty-Hughes, Martin Kendall, Liz Robertson, Mr Laurence Zahawi, Nadhim Dodds, Anneliese Khan, Afzal Robinson, Mary Tellers for the Ayes: Donaldson, rh Sir Jeffrey M. Kyle, Peter Rosindell, Andrew Maggie Throup and Doogan, Dave Lake, Ben Ross, Douglas David Rutley Dorans, Allan Lammy, rh Mr David 831 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill10 NOVEMBER 2020 Parliamentary Constituencies Bill 832

Lavery, Ian Osamor, Kate Thornberry, rh Emily Whittome, Nadia Law, Chris Osborne, Kate Timms, rh Stephen Williams, Hywel Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Oswald, Kirsten Trickett, Jon Wilson, Munira Lewis, Clive Owatemi, Taiwo Turner, Karl Winter, Beth Linden, David Owen, Sarah Vaz, rh Valerie Wishart, Pete Lloyd, Tony Peacock, Stephanie Webbe, Claudia Yasin, Mohammad Lockhart, Carla Pennycook, Matthew West, Catherine Zeichner, Daniel Long Bailey, Rebecca Perkins, Mr Toby Western, Matt Lucas, Caroline Phillips, Jess Whitehead, Dr Alan Tellers for the Noes: Lynch, Holly Phillipson, Bridget Whitford, Dr Philippa Bambos Charalambous and MacAskill, Kenny Pollard, Luke Whitley, Mick Liz Twist MacNeil, Angus Brendan Powell, Lucy Madders, Justin Qureshi, Yasmin Question accordingly agreed to. Mahmood, Mr Khalid Rayner, Angela Mahmood, Shabana Reed, Steve Lords amendment 8 disagreed to. Malhotra, Seema Rees, Christina The list of Members currently certified as eligible for Maskell, Rachael Reeves, Ellie a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Matheson, Christian Reeves, Rachel proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Mc Nally, John Reynolds, Jonathan McCabe, Steve Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing McCarthy, Kerry Rimmer, Ms Marie Order No. 83H), That a Committee be appointed to McDonagh, Siobhain Robinson, Gavin drawup Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing McDonald, Andy Rodda, Matt to their amendments 1, 2, 6, 7 and 8. McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Russell-Moyle, Lloyd That Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg, Eddie Hughes, Jane Hunt, McDonald, Stuart C. Saville Roberts, rh Liz Chris Clarkson, Cat Smith, Colleen Fletcher and McDonnell, rh John Shah, Naz David Linden be members of the Committee; McFadden, rh Mr Pat Shannon, Jim McGinn, Conor Sharma, Mr Virendra That Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg be the Chair of the McGovern, Alison Sheerman, Mr Barry Committee; McKinnell, Catherine Sheppard, Tommy That three be the quorum of the Committee. McLaughlin, Anne Siddiq, Tulip That the Committee do withdraw immediately.— McMahon, Jim Slaughter, Andy (Eddie Hughes.) McMorrin, Anna Smith, Alyn Question agreed to. Mearns, Ian Smith, Cat Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Jeff Committee to withdraw immediately; reasons to be Mishra, Navendu Smith, Nick reported and communicated to the Lords. Monaghan, Carol Smyth, Karin Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): In Moran, Layla Sobel, Alex order to observe social distancing, the Reasons Committee Morden, Jessica Spellar, rh John will meet not in the Reasons Room but in Committee Morgan, Stephen Stephens, Chris Room 12. Morris, Grahame Stevens, Jo Murray, Ian Stone, Jamie FORENSIC SCIENCE REGULATOR AND Murray, James Streeting, Wes BIOMETRICS STRATEGY BILL (MONEY) Nandy, Lisa Stringer, Graham Newlands, Gavin Sultana, Zarah Queen’s recommendation signified. Nichols, Charlotte Tami, rh Mark Resolved, Nicolson, John Tarry, Sam That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Forensic Norris, Alex Thewliss, Alison Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill, it is expedient to O’Hara, Brendan Thomas, Gareth authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of Olney, Sarah Thomas-Symonds, Nick any expenditure incurred under the Act by the Secretary of State. Onwurah, Chi Thompson, Owen —(Stuart Andrew.) Oppong-Asare, Abena Thomson, Richard 833 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Exiting the European Union 834 (Merchant Shipping) Exiting the European Union The impact of the protocol means that existing (Merchant Shipping) arrangements for those facilities will remain the same after the implementation phase. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I would like a 6.27 pm point clarified. The Minister referred to Northern Ireland The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport and the protocol, and to the change and differences that (Rachel Maclean): I beg to move, there will be between there and the mainland. What That the draft Ship Recycling (Facilities and Requirements for discussions have taken place with the Northern Ireland Hazardous Materials on Ships) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations Executive and Ministers there, so that we have clarity 2020, which were laid before this House on 15 October,be approved. for them and for us all? The United Kingdom has already introduced European Rachel Maclean: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Union exit legislation on ship recycling. Last year, we intervention. We have been in dialogue with the Northern laid the Ship Recycling (Facilities and Requirements for Ireland Executive and they are content with the regulations. Hazardous Materials on Ships) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 to ensure that legislation in this area The draft regulations will incorporate requirements would remain legally operable once the UK had withdrawn on existing UK ships and non-UK ships calling at UK from the EU. The agreement on the UK’s withdrawal ports to carry an inventory of hazardous materials. from the EU includes a protocol on Ireland and Northern Ships typically contain quantities of hazardous materials Ireland to address the unique circumstances on the island ,and by the end of 2018, EU ship recycling regulations of Ireland. A provision in article 5(4) of the protocol already required new ships to carry a list of those and annex 2 specify that certain provisions of EU law hazardous materials. Existing ships must also carry will apply in respect of Northern Ireland. The EU ship such a list from 31 December 2020. recycling regulation is one such provision listed in the Ensuring the safe and environmentally sound dismantling protocol and, as a consequence, will have some effect on and recycling of ships at the end of their operational ship recycling facilities in Northern Ireland. life has been a concern for a number of years. Many The EU ship recycling regulation transposed key ships are currently dismantled on beaches in Asia, with parts of the Hong Kong convention on the recycling of little regard for human safety or protection of the ships into EU law. The provisions apply to ship recycling environment. It is important that we continue to have facilities in the EU and to EU flagged ships above an effective ship recycling regime that protects public 500 gross tonnes.The main provisions of the EU regulation health and the environment. The changes in this instrument have applied since 31 December 2018 and include rules will ensure that environmental law continues to function about authorising and permitting ship recycling facilities, at the end of the implementation phase. The draft requirements needed for the EU to record a facility on regulations are a vital part of demonstrating that the its list of approved facilities—the European list—and a UK is implementing its commitments under the Northern requirement that all EU flagged ships must be recycled Ireland protocol. They are fully supported by Government, at an approved ship recycling facility, according to a and I commend them to the House. certified ship recycling plan. 6.32 pm The EU regulation also requires that all new EU Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): Labour flagged ships must carry a valid inventory of hazardous does not oppose the regulations, for the sake of a materials and that existing EU flagged ships and ships smooth transition for the maritime sector, but we have registered to non-EU countries calling at European continued and serious concerns about Northern Ireland, ports must carry an inventory of hazardous materials the maritime industry, and UK-EU co-operation after by the end of 2020. Under the 2019 regulations, EU Brexit. Under the amended regulations, the Government flagged ships would need to use an approved ship will set out a list of ship recycling facilities for UK use recycling facility on a United Kingdom list of approved in Northern Ireland. The EU will also have an approved facilities instead of the EU’s list. The 2019 regulations list of facilities in Northern Ireland. Those lists might also ensure that necessary functions of the EU Commission end up overlapping, depending on the separate decisions are transferred to the Secretary of State. of the EU Commission and the UK Government. It The draft regulations will amend the 2019 regulations beggars belief that we might end up with a dizzying made under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, mess of two confusing and conflicting lists of facilities which in turn amended the retained EU ship recycling that are able to carry out the same work in Northern regulation and the Ship Recycling Facilities Regulations Ireland. Would it not be easier to negotiate with the EU (Northern Ireland) 2015, to make two substantive changes. privately about the list and any potential changes, rather First, the regulations amend provisions that affect ship than publishing our own list? recycling facilities in Northern Ireland to reflect our The amendment to the regulations highlights wider obligations under the Northern Ireland protocol. In issues about Brexit and Northern Ireland. The continued particular, the regulations will Government mishandling of negotiations has led us to “require the joint competent authority for ship recycling facilities a place where last night, the Lords had to step in and in Northern Ireland to notify the Secretary of State of any change remove illegal clauses from the UK internal market Bill. of circumstances” The Government have wasted vital time needed to concerning their facilities. The Secretary of State must prepare, instead having a needless row with the European “notify the European Commission of any change of status regarding Union over a deal that has already been done. Rather ship recycling facilities in Northern Ireland”, than tying up these remaining loose ends and accepting and the regulations prevent ship recycling facilities in the Lords amendments, today we hear that the Prime Northern Ireland that are not on the European Union list Minister is continuing to threaten to break the law, of approved facilities from recycling EU-flagged vessels. setting back trust and the chances of a deal. 835 Exiting the European Union 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Exiting the European Union 836 (Merchant Shipping) (Merchant Shipping) Across the wider maritime sector, the coronavirus have a very poor record on the environment, despite pandemic has had a huge impact. We have already what the Minister tries to say, both generally and in lost at least one international ferry route from Hull to regard to nuclear waste management. The SNP stands Zeebrugge, and more international routes are under firm in demanding that Scotland becomes neither a pressure. An estimated 1,200 maritime jobs have already dumping ground nor an under-regulated chop shop for gone since the start of the pandemic. Labour has asked UK and US nuclear programmes. For nearly four decades, the Government to step in and protect those vital parts seven out-of-date nuclear submarines have been sitting of our international freight and travel infrastructure. in Rosyth. They have yet to be dismantled, let alone This sector needs certainty. We need the Government to appropriately disposed of. publish a clear road map for the implementation of the It is unacceptable that Scotland, a nation that rejects remaining elements of the protocol, which comes into nuclear weapons of mass destruction, is used as both a force in less than two months. storage facility and a dumping ground for active and I stress that Labour does not believe this country decaying nuclear submarines. The people of Scotland should be in a situation where Northern Ireland is treated now need the powers of independence to make our own differently from the three other nations. The amendment environmental and regulatory choices. is proof that the Government have failed in their basic responsibility to achieve equivalence across the whole 6.37 pm of our United Kingdom. Rachel Maclean: I thank the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Mike Kane) and the hon. 6.34 pm Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry). I can assure them that the regulations Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and will ensure that we meet our obligations under the Strathspey) (SNP): As we have already heard, while Northern Ireland protocol, and continue to combat Northern Ireland will continue to operate ship recycling environmental pollution and enforce safety standards facilities that can accommodate EU vessels, the other in the maritime sector. We have provided significant nations of the UK get no such assurances. Scotland will support to the maritime sector throughout the pandemic. be doubly disadvantaged now due to that and Westminster’s We heartily recognise it is important and we thank the historic failure on ship dismantling. I will come on to maritime sector for its contribution to our economy. more of that in a moment. The regulations we are discussing tonight only make Regulatory de-alignment of the rest of the UK is clearly changes to ensure the functionality of EU retained law possible and therefore could cut off our ship recycling in the UK statute book after completion of the yards, while Northern Ireland will continue to operate implementation phase with the EU. Consequently, our under the EU’s strict standards. There is no guarantee safety and environmental standards, which are among of the same elsewhere across the nations of the UK. the highest in the world, will continue to be comparable Even for normal vessels, ship breaking and ship recycling to those applying in the rest of Europe. Protecting the is a dangerous and potentially environmentally hazardous environment from all kinds of shipping pollution and activity. We are already seeing, through the United ensuring that ship recycling is undertaken in a responsible Kingdom Internal Market Bill, the Government’s manner is vital to broader Government commitments willingness to launch a race to sink standards. What to environmental standards and shipping safety. I hope does that mean in this context? the House agrees that the new regulations will be essential In Scotland, we already have dock space blocked up in ensuring that UK legislation on ship recycling continues with the rusting, decaying radioactive hulks of nuclear to work effectively once the implementation phase is submarines in Rosyth naval dockyard. The UK over. Government and the Ministry of Defence in particular Question put and agreed to. 837 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Exiting the European Union 838 (Agriculture) Exiting the European Union (Agriculture) removing references to Northern Ireland authorities and revoking corrections previously made to Northern Ireland domestic legislation in the 2019 regulations. EU 6.39 pm food and feed legislation will continue to apply in The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): I beg to Northern Ireland under the Northern Ireland protocol. move, For example, the functions currently undertaken by That the draft Food and Feed Hygiene and Safety (Miscellaneous the European Commission to review and make changes Amendments etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid to legislation were assigned by the 2019 regulations to before this House on 14 October, be approved. the appropriate authority,those being the relevant Secretary This instrument concerns food and feed laws and is of State in England or the relevant Ministers in Scotland, made under the powers in the European Union Wales and Northern Ireland. To implement the Northern (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to make necessary amendments Ireland protocol, it is now necessary to amend the to UK regulations. It follows from the 17 EU exit definition of appropriate authority in retained EU law instruments in the field of food and food safety made to remove references to Northern Ireland. in 2019, which, for brevity, I will refer to collectively as The secondary purpose of the instrument is to remedy the 2019 regulations. The Government’s priority and deficiencies and inoperabilities in retained EU food and commitment is to ensure that the high standard of food feed legislation, in particular arising from that which and feed safety and consumer protection we enjoy in has come into force since the 2019 regulations were this country continues to be maintained now that the made, but which we are obliged to treat as retained law. UK has left the European Union and going forward The amendments are technical in nature—for example, beyond the end of the transition period. removing references to the EU and its institutions, I must briefly draw the House’s attention to two which will no longer be appropriate following the end of technical corrections to the original statutory instrument, the transition period. which were noticed after the SI was laid and have been The amendments include, for example, specific food rectified by means of a correction slip. The corrections, hygiene regulations consolidating provisions allowing for the benefit of the House, are as follows. First, in for the words “United Kingdom” or the abbreviations page 1, regulation 1(2) previously read: UK or GB to be used in identification marks. Similar “Part 2 and Part 4 come into force on”. amendments to general food law will allow a period of It is corrected to clarify that: 21 months after the end of the transition period for products of animal origin carrying a UK/EC identification “This Part, Part 2 and Part 4 come into force on”. mark to be placed on the English market. That measure Secondly, in page 12, regulation 10(13), in the inserted should reduce the impact of the change in requirements regulation 20A(b)(i), “may made regulations” has, for for identification marks. Similar provision is expected the benefit of good grammar, been corrected to read, to be introduced in Wales and Scotland. “may make regulations”. I confirm that officials in the Let me be clear that the instrument does not introduce devolved Administrations have been kept informed of any changes that will impact on the day-to-day operation these minor typographical changes. of food businesses, nor does it introduce any new regulatory As the instrument is technical in nature, I am sure burden. The essence of the legislation is unchanged. that hon. Members will welcome a very brief summary The instrument will ensure continuity for businesses of the regulations and the changes that we are making. and protection of consumers’ interests by ensuring that The 2019 regulations were made in preparation for our the statute remains operable and enforceable. It provides exit from the European Union and will come into force confidence in the ability to trade both domestically and at the end of the transition period. They will ensure that internationally. the regulatory framework for food and feed remains functional throughout England, Scotland, Wales and The amendments take account of the Government’s Northern Ireland following the end of the transition commitments under the Northern Ireland protocol and period. They achieve that by making technical amendments make changes that allow Northern Ireland goods to be to EU food and feed legislation, such as changing manufactured to the EU standard while retaining EU-specific references that will be redundant on exit protections for all UK consumers. day, and transferring functions and powers currently A public consultation on the statutory instrument held by the European Commission to the appropriate was held in August. Weremain grateful to the stakeholders authorities in each of the UK’s constituent nations, who responded, with the majority supportive of the reflecting the context in which they were made—preparing approach to give effect to the protocol in the legislation for all possible scenarios in leaving the EU. However, and of the amendments to retained EU legislation. It is the withdrawal agreement was of course secured and, important to note that the devolved Administrations with it, the Northern Ireland protocol. have provided their consent for the instrument and we On 20 May 2020, we set out our approach to have engaged with them positively throughout. I put on implementing the Northern Ireland protocol as part of record my gratitude. meeting our obligations under the withdrawal agreement I take this opportunity to reassure the House that the with the EU. The primary purpose of this instrument is overarching aim of the statutory instrument is to provide to provide necessary amendments to implement the continuity for business to ensure that, following the end Northern Ireland protocol in the field of food and food of the transition period, high standards of safety and safety, by amending or revoking the 2019 regulations to quality for food and feed regulation will continue across apply to Great Britain only. The instrument gives effect the UK, and to reflect our obligations under the Northern to the protocol by ensuring retained EU law on food Ireland protocol. Having effective and functional law in and feed applies only to Great Britain. It does so by this area is key to ensuring that the standards of food 839 Exiting the European Union 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Exiting the European Union 840 (Agriculture) (Agriculture) safety and consumer protection that we enjoy in this Will the Minister update us on the progress of the country are maintained in the immediate and long provisional framework on food and feed safety and hygiene term. I ask hon. Members to support the amendments that will create a joint risk analysis process across the proposed in the instrument to ensure the continuation UK from the end of the transition period? I note that of effective food and feed safety and public health the chief executive of the Food Standards Agency gave controls. I commend the regulations to the House. a written response to some questions raised by the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee last week, 6.45 pm which indicated that the provisional framework will continue to be reviewed into early December. Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): I thank the Minister for his brief but informative introduction As that is a matter of public safety, it is imperative —I would like to say it was entertaining, but that might that any changes are communicated clearly and in a be pushing the boat out a bit, because it is a very timely manner to ensure that the industry can remain in technical piece of legislation, as he outlined. The instrument line with current legislation. Can the Minister assure us is primarily being made to reflect the Northern Ireland that it will be possible to do that within those timescales? protocol in the field of food safety and hygiene. What assessment has been undertaken of the readiness As we know, the instrument amends or revokes 16 of and capability of the FSA and Food Standards Scotland the 17 EU exit statutory instruments that were hurried to take on those responsibilities from day one? through in the weeks ahead of the original 29 March 2019 Finally, the explanatory memorandum states that Brexit deadline. As the Minister said, the intention is to guidance is not required for this instrument as it generally avoid disruption to food controls, which is critical for maintains existing regulations and does not introduce the approximately 220,000 businesses active in the agrifood new requirements. Given that this regulation was spread sector. As such, we will not be opposing the regulations across 17 instruments previously, it presumably covered today. We have a number of questions, however, because 17 different sets of guidelines. This concern was raised we have been clear that any future changes to regulatory by the Local Government Association in the initial controls after the UK leaves the EU should provide at consultation, which suggested that the FSA or other least the same, or even an improved, level of consumer organisations, such as relevant professional bodies, may protection. That applies to food hygiene and safety wish to consider how clear guidance and assurance for standards as much as anything else. councils on the new regulations could be provided. As the Minister briefly outlined, there was a public The Proprietary Association of Great Britain has consultation. The explanatory memorandum sets out also expressed concerns about the FSA’s assertion that that that was completed by the Food Standards Agency there would only be minimal, one-off familiarisation in respect of the amendments made to this instrument, costs to local authorities and port health authorities, which is welcome. I note, however, that the initial stating that cuts to local authority funding are such that consultation, which was carried out in September and some authorities do not have any full-time food and October 2018, received 50 responses from interested feed officers and that the time required for officers to parties across a wide range of sectors. The consultation read and understand the proposed regulations will impact that we are talking about today, which was carried out on the already limited time that trading standards, in August and September of this year, received only environmental health and port health authority officers seven responses. That is a concerning drop-off, even have to undertake enforcement activity. We know local though many other issues have clearly been occupying authorities are already under intense pressure due to the people’s attention this year. Will he confirm that the covid-19 response, so will the Minister confirm whether recent consultation was as widely publicised and drawn he has spoken with colleagues in the Ministry of Housing, to the attention of stakeholders as the previous one? Communities and Local Government about whether Does he have a view on why there was such a drop-off in councils do have sufficient capacity to carry out their responses? duties in this important area? On that note, I will end Although we can view the consultation document my speech. itself, a summary of the responses has not yet been published, so is not available for proper scrutiny. That is especially concerning as the explanatory memorandum 6.51 pm states that 29% of replies had “mixed comments” and that further analysis of them will be undertaken. The Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister phrase “mixed comments” could, of course, be classic for his explanation of where we are. Food and feed civil service speak for major concerns being flagged, or safety is vital to Northern Ireland’s important agri-sector, equally, those concerns could have been addressed in and for my constituency in particular the transition in the regulations. We do not know because we have not leaving the EU has to enable Northern Ireland to continue seen them. Although 29% amounts to only two responses to trade without obstruction. He has confirmed that the in this consultation, that does not make them any less full consultation has taken place with the Northern valid, given the small number of responses that we had. Ireland Executive, and I thank him for that confirmation The Minister knows that I am keen on transparency that ministerial contact in Northern Ireland and here at and full disclosure, so I hope that he will be able to shed Westminster has been constructive. some light on the nature of those mixed comments, the I have one question that I wish to ask the Minister. It concerns that were raised, and what further analysis of relates to a technical point, but I just want this on the the instrument was undertaken following that response. record, if he does not mind. I understand the technical Given the low level of response, I wonder whether he aspect of this measure and the need to react and secure, can be confident that the consultation process was but I must express concern that it highlights Northern sufficiently robust. Ireland as being outside the UK by using the prefix 841 Exiting the European Union 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Exiting the European Union 842 (Agriculture) (Agriculture) [Jim Shannon] On the point made by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I can reassure him that, while the wording “United Kingdom (Northern Ireland)”. I need to stress that of this statutory instrument reflects the technical legal Northern Ireland lies firmly within the United Kingdom wording to reflect the Northern Ireland protocol and of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and that cannot be the withdrawal agreement and the measures in that to forgotten. Perhaps the Minister could confirm that. help protect and secure the safety of the peace process, I am happy to be very clear with him on the record in this 6.53 pm Chamber that, of course, Northern Ireland remains a Edward Argar: I am grateful to hon. Members for a hugely important and integral part of our United Kingdom typically informed and focused debate. It is a pleasure, and one that I hope to be able to visit when travel is a bit as always, appearing opposite the hon. Member for more normal. I may even visit his constituency of Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), a different Strangford. shadow Minister from my normal double act in recent weeks. He raised a number of technical points about the Jim Shannon: I would welcome the Minister to my consultation and other aspects. I will endeavour to constituency. One of his former members of staff came answer them briefly, but where I do not do so I will, of from my constituency as well. It will be a double opportunity course, write to him. for him to visit the town of Comber and also my I am confident that the consultation undertaken in constituency. I would welcome seeing him there. August and September was sufficient. The hon. Gentleman highlights the smaller number of responses it received. I Edward Argar: I will take that as a clear invitation. suggest that is due to the significant consultation undertaken Sam Beggs who was a fantastic member of staff to both two years before and the fact that in this context little in the hon. Gentleman and I always sang the praises of our approach has changed. Many will therefore have Strangford. I need no more than the hon. Gentleman’s felt that they had had their say back then and that was kind invitation to take him up on it when travel is more reflected in the approach taken. He mentioned local normal. councils’ capacity to deal with these regulations. Like Question put and agreed to. many Members of this House, I was a councillor in a past life and I pay tribute to the work that our councils Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): In and local authorities do up and down this country. I am order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating confident that they will be able to implement these in this item of business and the safe arrival of those regulations effectively. On the FSA and FSS, I am also participating in the next, I will suspend the House for confident that they are ready and prepared for what is three minutes. coming in these regulations, which are relatively minor and technical in what they are seeking to update. I will of course go through the transcript in Hansard and 6.56 pm write to him on anything I have missed out. Sitting suspended. 843 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Committee on Standards 844

Committee on Standards expedited the decision on this matter. We have been striving to achieve a resolution through correspondence Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I inform and conversations, which I had hoped would lead us to the House that Mr Speaker has selected the amendment a more desirable outcome. It is regrettable that we now in the name of Valerie Vaz. I should also inform the find ourselves debating this matter on the Floor of the House that the Order Paper today should refer to the House at an early stage. report of the House of Commons Commission, “Lay Members of the Committee on Standards: Nomination Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): In the discussions I of Candidates”, HC 437. had yesterday, I was led to believe that the Government Chief Whip had indicated that the Government would 6.59 pm be voting against that motion next week. That is the reason the amendment has been tabled tonight—for no The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob other reason than because the Government were letting Rees-Mogg): I beg to move, it be known that they were going to vote against. That, in accordance with Standing Order No. 149A, Professor Michael Maguire CBE be appointed as lay member of the Committee on Standards for a period of six years, with immediate effect. Mr Rees-Mogg: It was a leader of the hon. Gentleman’s own party who once said that a week is a long time in The motion today gives the House the opportunity to politics and an opportunity for considerable discussion approve the appointment of Professor Michael Maguire to take place. CBE as a lay member of the Committee on Standards for a period of six years. Between 2012 and 2019, Let me be clear: across public appointments as a Professor Maguire was the Police Ombudsman for Northern whole, political activity is not and should not be a bar Ireland. His previous role, from 2008 until 2012, was to appointment. Membership of a political party is an chief inspector of criminal justice for Northern Ireland. important right under freedom of association. However, He will bring a wealth of experience to the Standards some public appointments will necessarily be independent, Committee. where individuals must ensure they are separate from The lay members of the Standards Committee play a party politics precisely because of their public functions. vital role in providing an independent voice to the This is especially the case for quasi-judicial or disciplinary Committee’s decisions. When lay members were first roles, as in this case. The Standards Committee is proposed over a decade ago, the rationale given by the an especially sensitive parliamentary Committee, with Committee on Standards in Public Life was that they significant powers to adjudicate on the conduct of would be Members of Parliament. Its lay members must be able to command absolute trust and confidence across the “a step towards enhancing public acceptance of the robustness whole House. and independence of the disciplinary process for Members of Parliament.” The independent and impartial status of lay members is Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): Will my right hon. therefore critical to maintaining confidence in our process. Friend confirm that it is vital for lay members of the If today’s motion is agreed, it will ensure that one of Standards Committee not only to be impartial but to be two lay member vacancies is filled with immediate seen to be impartial? effect. I ask the House to support Professor Maguire’s appointment. Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend makes an absolutely Standing Order No. 149A requires that the House of right and important point. The perception of impartiality Commons should decide on the appointment of lay is as important with lay members of the Standards members. It also stipulates that the decision should Committee as the reality, and just because somebody says follow a debate of up to one hour. As I said in business “I am impartial” does not mean that they are necessarily questions on 22 October, it is only right that time is impartial or that others will accept that assurance. properly provided and that the House has the right to take a decision and debate a matter so that we should Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): not assume that such a debate is simply a rubber-stamping I very much regret it, but I do not think I can support exercise. my right hon. Friend on this particular matter, because The House will have realised that only one of the I do not believe that being a member of a political party two candidates put forward by the House of Commons makes someone incapable of being impartial. Indeed, Commission is named in the motion today. As I have all the members of the Standards Committee who are previously said, this has no bearing on the character of Members of this House are members of political parties the other candidate. Instead, it reflects the fact that there and we strive to be impartial, but my right hon. Friend is disquiet in certain quarters, as well as wider concerns has just indicated that we are not capable of doing that. over the recruitment process, and in particular the criteria Will he explain what he thinks was wrong with the relating to impartiality that were applied. appointment process that arrived at these two names? If That brings me to amendment (a) in the name of the there was no unauthorised departure from the appointment shadow Leader of the House, the right hon. Member process—this is a question not of rubber-stamping but for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz). My intention had been of making sure that a proper appointment process has to keep the timing of the motion to appoint Ms Carter been followed, and that seems to be the case—for us just under review pending continuing conversations. That to say, “We don’t like the look of this particular person motion has been tabled under remaining orders. However, so we are not going to approve them” does not seem to the amendment seeks to bring forward the appointment me to be a respectable way to conduct the business of now. It is a matter of regret that the right hon. Lady has this House. 845 Committee on Standards10 NOVEMBER 2020 Committee on Standards 846

Mr Rees-Mogg: Had my hon. Friend been a little vote in favour of an individual to lead that party, more patient, he would have heard more details and believing that doing so would ensure a viable Opposition, may have come to an understanding as to why the would find it hard to persuade people that they were motion has been introduced. I disagree with him: this genuinely impartial. Under those circumstances, it is House, when a motion comes before it, has a right to perhaps not surprising that the House of Commons make the decision. Motions of this House are important Commission did not achieve consensus in approving and our Standing Orders provide for an hour’s debate; the appointment. they do that not for entertainment value but to ensure In the light of this candidate’s noted support for one that the House is satisfied with the appointments process. particular Labour leadership contender over another, I It is important that if the House is not satisfied with the find myself in the perhaps unexpected position of juggling process, it has the right to debate it. Let me continue, the interests of the rival factions of the Labour party. A because if I do, I think my hon. Friend will see why the lay member of the Standards Committee should be opposition to this particular individual has arisen and impartial towards politics that I do not like as well as why the question over impartiality is quite fundamental. politics that I do like. I became immediately concerned on learning from House of Commons Commission papers that this candidate As Leader of the House, I have a responsibility to all was a member of an unspecified political party. It was Members to protect their interest, which extends to all not material to me—I said this both in the Commission Members who competed in the Labour leadership election, and to my private office—which political party she some more successfully than others. Let me ask the belonged to—[Interruption.] I said that in the Commission. House what view it would have taken of somebody who The point of principle that mattered was that the politicians applied to join the Standards Committee who had on the Standards Committee should be the Members of joined the Conservative party just to vote for my right Parliament, not the lay members. hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) in the Conservative leadership contest because they believed in the need to get Brexit done. Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): Under those circumstances, we would not be having this Will the Leader of the House confirm that both he and conversation. The same principle applies to somebody my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles who joined the Labour party to support one particular Walker) first raised objections before knowing which candidate. political party the person was a member of? I do not make these points in an academic, theoretical Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct— or philosophical way. It is likely that, in the near future, that is absolutely true. The initial Commission papers the Standards Committee will be asked to consider a did not say which party, and both my hon. Friend the case relating to the activity or conduct of an MP. In this Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker) and I instance, there is a real risk of the appearance of bias, raised exactly the same concern before we knew that it because this proposed member has made clear her was a member of the Labour party under question. support for one candidate over another and joined a party specifically to vote for that one candidate over the other. We cannot have a situation where a lay member Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): The Leader of the Standards Committee is perceived as being linked of the House is a member of the House of Commons to a faction within a political party—as it happens, Commission, which is of course responsible for the within the Labour party, but it would be just as unsuitable oversight of the whole process, including the issuing of if someone were to be linked to a faction within the the recruitment pack, which specifically indicated what Tory party, although of course the Tory party does not party political activity would and would not be acceptable have factions. What happens when that lay member is in a candidate for appointment. Why did he not raise asked to make a judgment about the activity or conduct his objection about the nature of the political activity of an MP from within that faction? that would be acceptable at the time that the Commission commenced the recruitment? Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The Leader Mr Rees-Mogg: The Commission looked at a broad of the House just said that this individual is a member paper setting out the way the recruitment would take of a faction. Is it not the case that that individual might place; it did not look at the details and the questions have just wanted to vote for one candidate? Does he that the Committee would ask in terms of political have any evidence that she is organised as part of a affiliation. The issue—[Interruption.] That is just such faction within the Labour party, because that is what he a fatuous point. It is not about packing it; it is about just implied? having people who do not have a political affiliation of a recent kind. Mr Rees-Mogg: The point is self-evident: if somebody As I said, objections were raised before we knew what joins a party specifically to vote X, they also specifically party this lady belonged to, because the politicians on vote against Y. Y is a Member of this House. The the Standards Committee are the Members of Parliament, person in question who joined the Labour party clearly not the lay members, who need to be impartial. Lay has a view that is unfavourable to Y and favourable members should be genuinely independent and that did to X. Y may appear in front of the Standards Committee. not seem to be the case, so questions were raised. It was At what point could Y possibly have confidence that at that point that it emerged that Ms Carter had joined this lady, who claims not to be anything other than the Labour party this year to vote in the Labour party impartial in normal circumstances, should be impartial leadership election. It seemed to me that anyone who against them after she voted against them and specifically had recently joined any political party in order to cast a joined the Labour party to vote in that direction? 847 Committee on Standards10 NOVEMBER 2020 Committee on Standards 848

Mr Jones: I have to say the Leader of the House is at this point in the process? Does that reflect well on this tying himself up in knots, because that is not the House, and does it speak to a process that is conducted question that I asked. He said that she is a member of a with complete integrity? faction. Does he have any evidence that, apart from casting a vote for a candidate in an internal Labour Mr Rees-Mogg: The process is quite clear and it ends party election, she has been organising with others to with an hour’s debate in this Chamber. The hon. Lady support a certain candidate? If he does not, he should did not tell the candidates that that was the process—that correct the record. is a matter for her, not for me. That is a right of this House and we must use our rights in this House; that is Mr Rees-Mogg: I said quite clearly that she supported what we are here for. There has been no change to the a faction. If someone supports one candidate in a process. leadership election, they are self-evidently supporting a faction. That is just normal use of English, which I am Chris Bryant: The process in Standing Order No. 149A surprised the right hon. Gentleman questions, because says very clearly that the person who tables the motion he is quite hot on that normally. Any perception of does so partiality undermines the important role of lay members, “on behalf of the…Commission”— who are there to provide a vital balance to the political not on behalf of themselves or the Government, but on membership of the Standards Committee. That is why behalf of the Commission. I think that this is only just we ask for lay members in the first place. in order because, frankly, the Commission made a decision—it voted on it; it decided—and this should be Chris Bryant: I can honestly say that I do not think a a single motion coming from the Commission that single member of the Standards Committee, whether should be here tonight. All the rest, I am afraid, is party they are a lay member or an MP, thinks of themselves political shenanigans. as a politician when they are engaged in the work of the Committee. It is a really important part of the way we Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman is wrong and, try to do our business. There is no partisanship—party as so often, overstates himself. The Commission makes membership is completely irrelevant. The only reason a recommendation to the House and the Commission why anybody knows about this particular person’s party motion has been brought forward—there is one on membership is because the Leader of the House asked Standing Orders and there is one we are debating now. about it. I have no idea whether all the other lay members If the motion were not in order, it would not be on the on the Committee have been members of a political party, Order Paper, and I assume the hon. Gentleman is not or were recently. The specific point is that the criterion questioning the decision of Mr Speaker. for appointment was explicitly that party membership In conclusion, I would like to take this opportunity was not a bar, provided a candidate had not held office to express my thanks to the outgoing members of the or campaigned on behalf of the party. She has done Standards Committee, the lay members Ms Charmaine neither. I am afraid that this is turning the Committee Burton and Sir Peter Rubin, for their contribution to into a party political football. the Committee on Standards and to the standards system in the House more widely. I urge Members to Mr Rees-Mogg: I think that is completely wrong, and consider the points I have made carefully. The decision I also think that the hon. Gentleman is trying to put the of this House is an important one and an essential part cart before the horse. The House is not bound by the of the recruitment process. rules set for it by the selection process. It is entitled to challenge and question that process. That is the job of Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con): I speak as a the House. We are not a rubber stamp, here merely to member of the Standards Committee. I have listened to approve it. the debate this evening and, I have to say, I would vote I come to the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston against a member of the Conservative party, were they (Kate Green). She is a lady of considerable integrity, to be put forward to represent lay members on the and I do not and would not question—and would not Standards Committee. It is deeply regrettable that we even think of questioning—that, but the process undertaken are having this debate this evening and that the name of by the selection panel has inadvertently created the an individual has been released to the public. I am very appearance of a political pas de deux, because the sorry that the Opposition tabled this motion. It has person who was selected by a Committee that had only been discussed at great length in the Standards Committee. one Labour politician on it was somebody who had I recognise fully that the lay members are an important joined the Labour party to vote for a candidate for the part of the Standards Committee, but this is a very Labour party leadership. It is the recruitment process sensitive position. This involves making judgments on that is at fault here, so I make the observation that we Members of this House. Everybody should have certainty must do better than we have done in this sorry affair that there is impartiality and integrity. and that any future recruitment process for lay members should not make the same mistakes. I reiterate that had Mr Rees-Mogg: I am very grateful. The issue of somebody been a recent member of the Tory party impartiality is a fundamental one and Caesar’s wife joining to vote in the leadership election, my view in the should be above suspicion. Unfortunately, that has not Chamber would be exactly the same. been achieved in this case. My hon. Friend is right: it would have been better if this name had not come to Kate Green: I am grateful to the Leader of the House this stage, because it is not a great thing for the person for giving way again. I note what he said about learning who put her name forward. I recognise that. This has lessons for the process in future and I think that is very been a very unsatisfactory procedure. It has led to good advice, but is it not unfair to the candidates who somebody who joined the Labour party recently and for applied for appointment this time to move the goalposts the specific purpose of supporting one candidate in the 849 Committee on Standards10 NOVEMBER 2020 Committee on Standards 850

[Mr Rees-Mogg] former Clerk of the Journals, and Dr Arun Midha, who is a lay member of the Committee on Standards. The top leadership election having her name brought forward. It two applicants were chosen: Melanie Carter and Professor seems to me to be a self-evident mistake, so should the Michael Maguire—in that order. I thank the panel all House agree to the appointment of Professor Maguire for their hard work, because sifting through all those today, I wish him well as he takes up his new role, and I experienced applicants is not an easy task. We should commend the motion to the House. be pleased that all those people applied for the post.

7.19 pm Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I beg to move am interested in the impartiality. Was there guidance to amendment (a), in line 1, leave out the candidates and to the selection committee about “be appointed as lay member” whether being a member of political party would disqualify and insert a candidate? “and Ms Melanie Carter be appointed as lay members”. I thank the Leader of the House for finally tabling Valerie Vaz: As my hon. Friend the Member for this motion, but I am extremely worried and concerned Stretford and Urmston said earlier, it was very clear about what he has done today. I was in politics in 1987, that it was not in the criteria for disqualification, and it and the reason that I am taking this personally and have cannot be. It reminds me of when Brian Redhead was tabled this amendment is that this sort of thing has on the BBC. I think he was accused of voting in a happened to me. It used to be known as blacklisting. I certain way, and he said to the now Lord Tebbit, “How was prevented from having certain posts because people dare you know how I voted? Nobody knows how anyone thought I had a particular political viewpoint. I thought votes when they go into that booth with that pencil. It is that we had moved away from that and that this country a private matter—nobody knows.” had changed—that it did not really matter what someone’s Let me go back to the way interviews were done. I politics were, but was about the kind of job that they did. want to thank all the panel for finding these two excellent I am deeply concerned that some of the conversations candidates. This came to the Commission for discussion, that we have had in the Commission are public. The which I will not go into, but concerns were raised. I will Leader of the House has said in some accounts that he not say who the concerns were raised by. The panel apparently knows why Melanie Carter joined the Labour members were asked to go and ask questions of the party and why she resigned from it; he appears to know candidates again, and so they did. They did the due exactly what those reasons are. The difficulty that we diligence and they came back. That is the process. face is that Melanie Carter is not here to defend herself. If Members are asking about impartiality, let me just She cannot question the Leader of the House or state set out exactly what Melanie Carter is. Her current role what he has said in public; she does not have a chance to is senior partner and head of the public and regulatory do that. That is not right in any forum, not least the law department at Bates Wells solicitors. She is an House of Commons. independent adjudicator for the Marine Stewardship As I understand it, Melanie cannot have resigned Council. She is a tribunal judge. She is a founder from the Labour party. I do not know who she voted for member of the Public Law Solicitors Association. She in the leadership election. I do not even know that she has previously worked as a partner at DMH Stallard and joined the Labour party to vote for a particular candidate. a solicitor with Bindmans, as director of standards and I have no idea and I do not know where that has come deputy registrar with the General Optical Council, and with from. I understood that she had resigned because she Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw solicitors. She also worked had applied for a post. I do not know where all this for the Government Legal Service. Her previous public information is coming from. Is it tittle-tattle, gossip or appointments were as an independent member of Brighton just politicking? It really is unbecoming of the Leader and Hove Council standards committee, as the legal of the House. chair of the Adjudication Panel for England and as a magistrate on the south-west Bench in London. The Leader of the House failed to answer the question from the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex Melanie Carter qualified as a barrister and a solicitor. (Sir Bernard Jenkin); he failed to say how the process As solicitors, we owe a duty to the court first. We have was at fault or how it was flawed. Let me take hon. and right to uphold the truth and the rule of law. She does all hon. Members through the process, because it is important that, and she does it independently. That is why the for the House to know that there were 331 applicants. panel recommended her. Let me tell hon. Members There was a sift and 10 applicants were interviewed. exactly what the report says, through the Commission: Those 10 applicants were actually whittled down through “The two candidates represent a combination of experience questions and an interview. That was all done by other and qualities which should reinforce public confidence in the impartial people, away from politics. independent element in the House’s disciplinary processes.” The applicants then went before an experienced panel This House is now saying to all those highly qualified that included Jane McCall, who is an external member people who sat on the panel, “You are talking rubbish. of the House of Commons Commission. There was We don’t agree with you. We don’t agree with one part also my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and of what you say, but we agree with the other part.” That Urmston (Kate Green), who chaired the Committee on is absolutely outrageous. Standards at the time. She had resigned because she had been given a new post, but we agreed that she would stay Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): I cast no on even though my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda aspersions at all on the individual. She is clearly a very (Chris Bryant) was the new Chair of the Committee. well qualified individual in her field. However, I take the The other members of the panel were Mark Hutton, the point about the rules but, given that we have seven 851 Committee on Standards10 NOVEMBER 2020 Committee on Standards 852 politicians who can be politically declared and seven lay into just a little bit more than that—although that is members, surely we can accept that it makes sense for certainly the case in respect of Professor Maguire. That all those on the lay side of things to be completely suggests that the process has been successful in identifying beyond reproach, so that accusations cannot be made. I well-qualified, impartial candidates. just wonder why we were unable to find people who It is disappointing, and slightly unedifying, that we were interested in being lay members but were not have ended up where we are in respect of the amendment, politically interested. I saythat as,I hope,a very independent because, as the Leader of the House pointed out, it has minded representative in this House. the same effect as the motion in his name on “remaining orders”. With the greatest of respect, I ask why the right Valerie Vaz: It is wonderful, isn’t it, when you know hon. Gentleman has tabled a motion with the effect of how someone is going to deal with a matter just on the appointing the person whose name is on the amendment basis of what their background is. With the greatest if he does not support that. That is an indication that respect to the hon. Member, he does not know what is that is Government business they want to get through, going to come before a Committee. The Leader of the on behalf of the House of Commons Commission. It is House suggested that Melanie Carter might vote for an extremely odd. Moreover, only a few hours ago the Opposition who were going to be good opposition for Leader of the House was at the Dispatch Box, singing the current party, but actually, how does he know who the praises of the public appointments process to the is going to win the next the election? Nobody does, so Boundary Commission. He was rejecting their lordships’ he cannot say that she would vote for someone so that amendments to reform our public appointments process they would provide better opposition to the party that because he said it was so impartial and so effective, and he represents. it made all the appropriate decisions.

Chris Bryant: It is actually more than that. The Kate Green: The hon. Gentleman makes an important criteria that were sent out to all the candidates said that point. Does he agree that what is happening this evening having been a party member need not be a bar and that, in respect of the proposed appointment of Ms Melanie indeed, it may be an asset because they might understand Carter will discourage future candidates from coming politics better than some others. So we really are moving forward—candidates from whose expertise and experience the goalposts, nine months after those people were the House could massively benefit—because they will invited to apply. I think that that shows us in a terrible see that the approval of the public appointments system light. is something that the present Government pay only lip service to? Valerie Vaz: I saw no bar when Tim Davie, who is now Chairman of the BBC, stood as a Conservative Patrick Grady: That is exactly where we seem to be councillor; no one saw a bar to that. So what happened heading, because it seems to me that if the integrity and in someone’s past—and this applies to numerous people. the suitability of a candidate that has gone through the I spent last Thursday going through how contracts were entire system is now being questioned on the Floor of handed out to friends of the current Government—but the House, then in fact the integrity and suitability of we digress; I apologise. the whole system are being questioned, and that is very serious. It is a bit of a problem, not least because the Huw Merriman: Will the hon. Lady give way? same system has produced a candidate that we are all welcoming, and want to indorse this evening, in the Valerie Vaz: No. appointment of Professor Maguire. I want to mention Professor Michael Maguire, because Both candidates have been vetted and approved to I do support the motion when it comes to appointing the standards of the Nolan principles. They have been him. He was the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland recommended to the House by this House’s Commission, and, among other things, he was a research officer at the which the House has appointed, and the House has a University of Aston and he is currently the honorary say on the appointment, obviously, because they will professor of Senator George J Mitchell’s Institute for serve as members of the Committee on Standards, but Global Peace, Security and Justice. So he, too, comes we should have faith in the system and in the Commission. highly qualified, and we support his nomination. I am informed by our Member on the Commission, To go back to some of the points that my hon. my hon.—it should be right hon.—Friend the Member Friends have touched on, the Committee applied a for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), of the selection criterion to all the candidates and the House qualifications and suitability of the candidate named in should not derogate from that criterion, if that criterion the amendment; that is there for everyone to see in was accepted by the panel and was accepted by the HC 437. Both candidates are there; their qualifications Commission—and it was. are listed. I support the motion, and I intend to press the amendment in my name. Mr Kevan Jones: The only objection that the Leader of the House put forward was that the candidate had 7.31 pm joined a political party, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) pointed out, that Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): When my in itself was not a bar to being appointed. If it is for the name went down on the call list, I thought this would be Leader of the House—who is clearly the Whip tonight a debate on one of the usual consensual motions, when to the Conservative majority behind him—to determine we congratulate the candidates on the quality of their why we do not just do away with the selection process CVs and wish them all the best, but it has clearly turned and allow the Leader of the House to make the selection. 853 Committee on Standards10 NOVEMBER 2020 Committee on Standards 854

Patrick Grady: It goes back to my fundamental point The second point is that we have moved the goalposts. that I do not see how the system can produce one qualified How can we ask people to apply for a job and say that candidate and one non-qualified candidate. It suggests there is no bar to their applying just because they have that the Government are questioning the integrity of been a party member, and then suddenly change three the system as a whole, and in that case we have to have quarters of the way through the process once they have a much bigger discussion than the one we are having already been offered it? The point for the individual right now.As the former Chair of the Standards Committee, candidates—both Michael Maguire and Melanie Carter—is the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), that they have been hanging around for months. I know just said, we desperately need talented, qualified individuals, Melanie Carter’s situation: she has resigned from various particularly women, to come forward for these kind of different posts because she thought that she was going roles in public life, and I cannot imagine that the thought to be having this post, because that is what the House of of a debate such as this ending up on the Floor of the Commons Commission had decided. House of Commons is any kind of encouragement. The Leader of the House’s motion should be the The SNP is happy to endorse the recommendation of motion that came from the House of Commons the House of Commons Commission and this incredibly Commission. That is what Standing Order No. 149A thorough process, and therefore we will be very happy says. He is doing it to support the official Opposition in their amendment “on behalf of the…Commission”— tonight. not on behalf of the Government or on behalf of 7.35 pm himself, but on behalf of the Commission, and I know that the Commission is not happy about this. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I confess—I will try not to overdo my argument, if the Leader of the House This is House business. It should not be whipped, let will bear with me—that I am saddened by this debate. alone when the Government have more than 200 proxy All the members on the Standards Committee try extremely votes in their back pocket. This is just wrong. It is the hard to be impartial, to put our party membership wrong way to do our business. This is House business, completely to one side and to put our prejudices, whatever and we have to find ways of reclaiming some elements they may be, to one side when we are dealing with where we actually decide things not on the basis of difficult cases, which are very sensitive to the individuals which party we are a member of, but on the basis of concerned and sometimes to the complainants as well. what we think is right for Parliament. My experience so far—it has not been very long, but my experience so far—is that every single member, both lay Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con): I just want and party political member, keeps their counsel, is not to ask whether, if this is House business—which I think available to be lobbied by others and comes to what it is, absolutely—why, therefore, is the Labour Chief they believe to be a wholly impartial and fair decision. Whip’s name on the amendment? I have some complaints about the way we have got to where we are tonight. The first is that we have kept these Chris Bryant: Yes, he is a Member of the House. My candidates waiting for months and months: the process name is not on it incidentally, as the hon. Gentleman started in February.Weknew that the twoprevious members might have noticed, though whether my name is on it is were leaving in May, and we have been two members probably not the most important thing. When we discussed down now since May. The Committee is meant to have this matter in the Committee today, we decided that it a majority of lay members. We do not have a majority was not a matter for the Committee to decide who of lay members at the moment because the Government should be sitting on the Committee, and that is why I have refused time and again to bring forward the motion did not sign the amendment yesterday. I do support it, to allow us to put even one member on. though, because it is taking forward precisely what was The Government have also kept on changing their decided by the House of Commons Commission after a mind. At one point they tabled a single motion for both thorough, Nolan principle-based process of appointment. candidates. Then I was told that there were going to be two separate motions for the two different candidates I think this does harm to the House’s reputation, but they would be taken on the same day, and suddenly partly because we have taken so long about it, and also we were told that we are having the debate today for just one because we have suddenly brought politics into it at the member to be added. Then suddenly yesterday afternoon last minute and moved the goalposts. If this were in any it was announced that the Government were going to other business, I am sure that the person concerned table another motion for debate next week, and then half would be thinking of suing, and it may well be that an hour later the Chief Whip—I think he will confirm Melanie Carter will think about that, for all I know. She that now—indicated to our Chief Whip that the may not be able to sue the proceeding in Parliament, Government would be voting against that motion, even but there may be other elements of the process that she though they had tabled it. I think he can confirm that. is able to sue. To be honest, I would say to her, “Good luck with that.” The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury It would of course be this candidate that the Leader (Mark Spencer) indicated assent. of the House decides is not the appropriate one—a very successful woman lawyer who happens to be a single Chris Bryant: Yes. So the Leader of the House was mum. It would be this candidate, wouldn’t it, that is the wrong earlier when he suggested that this was going to one that does not come forward? Were there any questions be resolved and it was not decided yet how the Government about any of the other candidates as to whether they were going to be voting next week. I am sure he had been party members previously? No. This is the inadvertently misled us. only one that a question has been asked of. 855 Committee on Standards10 NOVEMBER 2020 Committee on Standards 856

Huw Merriman: The hon. Gentleman and I have what I think I heard the Leader of the House say in his exchanged texts on this issue, and I always listen to what opening remarks when he appeared to question the he has to say, but I rather think we are disappearing conduct of the recruitment process. I feel it is incumbent down rabbit holes. The objection I have—I have voted on me, on behalf of my fellow panellists, three independent against House business before when it has been whipped lay members, to speak up for the integrity and by the Front Bench, so I hope there is some credence propriety with which they—and we all, including staff here—is that I expect lay members to be completely lay, members who sought to advise on the process, and the particularly when there is an even split of 7:7. It really recruitment agency—conducted the interview, selection does not show this place in the best light if there is that and recommendation to the House of Commons little taint that can always be brought up. Surely he can Commission. I feel that is owed to my fellow panellists. see that point. Taking out all the rest, to me it just comes As we have said repeatedly this evening, the Leader of down to what looks to be fair and completely unbiased. the House is seeking to introduce a new qualification to Chris Bryant: It would be perfectly legitimate for the the recruitment process that is at explicit odds with House to decide that henceforward all lay members what was in the recruitment pack that the House of must be people who have never held a party political Commons Commission, of which he is a member,approved membership, and that would be one of the things that before the process was publicised. Let me be very precise would be put out in the pack to all people who were about what the pack said. If I may quote, it said to thinking of applying, so it would be clear from the potential candidates that lay members would have to beginning. But that is the exact opposite of what the demonstrate impartiality specifically “during their time House did in this situation. Applicants were told, “Not on the committee” and, further, that they should not only is it okay for you to have been a party political “during their term in office”undertake any party political member, but it might indeed be an asset because you activity. I think the House will accept that any candidate would understand the party political process better.” would reasonably take from those words that they would not be barred from appointment on the basis of prior Huw Merriman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? political activity. As my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) pointed out, the information Chris Bryant: Yes. pack was also quite clear in not including membership of a political party in and of itself in the definition of Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. what constitutes party political activity. I would encourage the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) to conclude his remarks soon because three other people wish to speak, and it would simply be Jacob Young: Will the hon. Lady give way? unfair, in a debate in which we are discussing fairness, if not everyone had a chance so to do. Kate Green: I think Madam Deputy Speaker would like me to speak as quickly as possible. Chris Bryant: Am I not allowed to give way then? The Leader of the House said in his remarks that the Okay, I give way. interview questions were not seen by the Commission, Huw Merriman: I was merely going to say, on that and that is correct, but that is not the point I was particular point, that surely every candidate who goes making. The Commission should have seen the recruitment through this knows that this House has to be the ultimate pack. If the Leader of the House did not see it and did decision maker. Otherwise it is just a rubber stamp and not ask to see it prior to approving the process, I am there is no point in having this Chamber and the Division surprised to hear that, given his thoroughness in Lobbies. approaching these matters. Perhaps he could be absolutely clear to the House whether or not he was aware of the Chris Bryant: The thing is that thus far it always has contents of the pack before it was publicised. been a rubber stamp. Nobody has ever voted on this, nor, The second thing I want to reiterate is that I am very for that matter, has there ever been a moment at which a concerned that, in unilaterally moving the goalposts Leader of the House has refused to bring to the House from what the recruitment pack said, we are behaving the motion that went through the House of Commons as a House in a way that is deeply, deeply unfair to the Commission, so this is in a different category. successful candidates. It calls into question the conduct I will now briefly conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker. of the panel. It is therefore a real concern for the Of course this will not, in the end, affect the long-term reputation and perception of this House. I think that way in which the Committee seeks to do its business. I matters, particularly because we know there is public am very grateful to the Government for the report that and, of course, internal scepticism about the independence was fed back to us on the basis of reports that we had of our processes in dealing with Members who breach done earlier this year. However, I think I preferred the the code of conduct, particularly but not only in relation Leader of the House as he was previously when he to bullying, harassment and sexual harassment. The excoriated Governments for being over-mighty Executives. House has worked very hard over the last couple of I find now that he rather likes being the over-mighty years to dispel that perception, but I believe that a vote Executive, and I am not sure that is good for the job or now against a candidate, who has been recommended good for the House. following a rigorous recruitment process in which the panel chair and three of the four panel members were 7.43 pm not MPs, risks reinforcing it. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): As the only Finally, I just want to repeat that a vote tonight elected Member of this House to have been part of the against a candidate who has been recommended for interview panel and therefore to have seen the recruitment appointment as a result of an open recruitment process process from the inside, I want to start by addressing conducted fully in line with the Nolan principles will 857 Committee on Standards10 NOVEMBER 2020 Committee on Standards 858

[Kate Green] us and it should not be seen as necessarily undermining our ability to make a judgment. The argument does not serve to discourage future potential candidates from work there either. applying for lay roles for which they would be eminently Thirdly, in terms of impartiality, if it really is the case suited. We risk losing the valuable skills, perspectives that membership of a political party automatically corrupts and expertise that external appointees can bring, and judgment, there should not be a single hon. Member on that will be to our detriment. the Committee because, by definition, they are members of a political party. 7.47 pm Finally, this is a matter of House business. One of the John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): I presume the Government tests is how it would feel if it was the other way round. I will win the vote tonight, especially if the Government would be outraged if I was on the other side of this Whip uses his pocket full of proxy votes, but frankly it argument. I say that with some knowledge, because I is a pretty shabby day. The Leader of the House was at was on the other side of the argument through all the his arrogant and patronising worst in the way that he Blair years, when House business was not treated as put the case. House business. I am afraid that I propose to support I have to say that I am quite clear: being a party the amendment. supporter and member in a parliamentary democracy is not a matter for regret or abuse; it actually shows civic 7.51 pm mindedness, especially if someone joined the Labour Mr Rees-Mogg: I disagree with my right hon. Friend party to bring about the change that has brought such the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). an improvement in our public opinion standing. The If I were on the other side of this issue and it were a slur is that somehow someone who is a party member, Conservative under question, as I said earlier, I would but particularly someone who is a Labour party member, still think it was an unsuitable appointment. is incapable of knowing right from wrong and is also incapable of exercising impartial judgment. I regard The shadow Leader of the House, the right hon. that as a completely unjustifiable slur, which discourages Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), made points people from political activity. We vitally need many about the panel, the discussions within the Commission good people of all opinions to be involved in political and the CV of the lady in question. I have always tried activity. to make it clear that I do not wish to question the lady’s bona fides—it is merely the impartiality issue. I would prefer it if we widened our net in public appointments—I have always been quite clear about that There is a fundamental point, which the hon. Member —to include those with wider experience, unless they for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) raised in his speech: the require specific scientific knowledge. Clearly, this reason we have lay members is that, for better or worse, appointment does not require that. It is about being the political members were not trusted to sit in judgment able to know right from wrong. That is about understanding upon themselves and therefore needed non-political the world. Frankly, I would like to see nurses, electricians, members. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member care workers, bus drivers, company managers, engineers, for Haltemprice and Howden that being a member of a doctors, farmers and even fund managers being invited party is something that one should be proud of—it is to be lay members on many public bodies, rather than civic activity. I also think it is perfectly reasonable for just those who seem to be on the merry-go-round. That people to put their political beliefs behind them. The says nothing about their individual qualities; it is about hon. Member for Rhondda was a member of the broadening the sphere. There is no proposal to do that Conservative party at university; that does not remain in this motion. Those are not the current rules. As has the case, for better or worse. It is merely a question of been made clear several times—I should not have to whether the membership is immediate and close to the reiterate it—these people applied under the current point at which the appointment is made. rules. I regret that this is another example of this Government, with a sizeable majority, riding roughshod Chris Bryant: I understand that the Leader of the over and using and abusing that majority. I am sure the House is saying that he is not questioning the bona fides Leader of the House knows full well what follows hubris. of Melanie Carter,but that he is questioning her impartiality. I hope he is not. She is a tribunal judge. She shows her 7.50 pm impartiality every day of the week. He is simply saying that, under his new rule, which he has invented, because Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I she has been a party member, she cannot be a lay am afraid that the 203 votes that the Deputy Chief member of the Committee. Is that right? Whip casts on behalf of Members have become 202. The process is flawed in four ways. First, it is a breach Mr Rees-Mogg: I am questioning her impartiality of natural justice. This lady applied under terms that between various factions within the Labour party,because were explicit. They did not exclude her being a member she joined the Labour Party to support one particular of a political party. If my hon. Friend the Member for faction. The right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar) Warrington South (Andy Carter), who is a member of slightly gave the game away, because I think he thinks the Committee, thinks that should have been different, that it was his faction that she supports. I do not know he should have changed the rules at the beginning. It is that and I am not stating that for certain, but he seemed a breach of natural justice. to imply that in his joy at welcoming the proposed Secondly, it is a failure of judgment. The term “beyond appointment. reproach” has been used, in not being a political party The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston member. I do not think being a political party member (Kate Green) asked what the Commission knew. The is a matter of reproach. It is a matter of pride for all of draft person specification that was approved by the 859 Committee on Standards10 NOVEMBER 2020 Committee on Standards 860

Commission in February made no reference to the issue Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gibson, Patricia of whether or not it was suitable for a prospective Brennan, Kevin Gill, Preet Kaur candidate to be a member of a political party. If that Brock, Deidre Glindon, Mary information made its way into the more detailed recruitment Brown, Alan Grady, Patrick pack to candidates, that was not with the authority of Brown, Ms Lyn Grant, Peter the Commission. Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gray, Neil Bryant, Chris Green, Kate We come to the failures of the recruitment process. It Buck, Ms Karen Greenwood, Lilian would have been absolutely reasonable and wise and Burgon, Richard Greenwood, Margaret sensible for the recruitment process to say that somebody Butler, Dawn Griffith, Nia who had been immediately involved in politics—not Byrne, Ian Gwynne, Andrew 20 years ago or not five years ago—could not be certain Byrne, rh Liam Haigh, Louise of being impartial and would not give the impression of Cadbury, Ruth Hamilton, Fabian impartiality to Members of the House. The hon. Member Callaghan, Amy Hanna, Claire for Rhondda says that, absolutely, prejudices should be Cameron, Dr Lisa Hanvey, Neale put to one side, but as I said, if people had confidence in Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hardy, Emma that being so easy, we would not have lay members in Carden, Dan Harman, rh Ms Harriet the first place. The reason we introduced lay members is Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hayes, Helen Chamberlain, Wendy Healey, rh John that we thought people could not put their prejudices Champion, Sarah Hendrick, Sir Mark aside. From a panel on which, as the hon. Lady the Chapman, Douglas Hendry, Drew Member for Stretford and Urmston told us, she was the Cherry, Joanna Hill, Mike only politician—a Labour politician—we get somebody Clark, Feryal Hillier, Meg who was a supporter of a particular candidate in a very Cooper, Daisy Hobhouse, Wera recent election. That seems to me to leave the impression, Cooper, Rosie Hodge, rh Dame Margaret the risk, the danger of partiality. Cooper, rh Yvette Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hollern, Kate Kate Green: I know that the Leader of the House Cowan, Ronnie Hopkins, Rachel would not question my integrity; he was kind enough to Coyle, Neil Hosie, Stewart say so a few moments ago. I am probably the only Crawley, Angela Howarth, rh Sir George person in the House who knows who Melanie Carter Creasy, Stella Huq, Dr Rupa said she had joined the Labour party to support, and it Cruddas, Jon Hussain, Imran may help the House to know that it was not the same Cryer, John Jardine, Christine Cummins, Judith Jarvis, Dan leadership candidate who I supported. Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Dame Diana Daby, Janet Johnson, Kim Mr Rees-Mogg: The point is that we have the presentation Davey, rh Ed Jones, Darren of partiality. That is why I was so careful to say that I David, Wayne Jones, Gerald have the highest respect for the hon. Lady’s integrity. I Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, rh Mr Kevan was careful in my speech not to say that I have the Davis, rh Mr David Jones, Ruth greatest respect for the hon. Lady, because everybody Day, Martyn Jones, Sarah knows those are bogus words; I chose the word integrity De Cordova, Marsha Kane, Mike because I think it is genuine. However, I think her panel Debbonaire, Thangam Keeley, Barbara made a mistake, and that is why we are here. Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Kendall, Liz Docherty-Hughes, Martin Khan, Afzal Yes, of course, it is a shame that we are here, but if Dodds, Anneliese Kyle, Peter Opposition Members were to think for a moment, had Doogan, Dave Lake, Ben this person joined the Conservative party to vote for my Dorans, Allan Lammy, rh Mr David right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Doughty, Stephen Lavery, Ian Dowd, Peter Law, Chris Ruislip (Boris Johnson), they would unquestionably Dromey, Jack Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma think that that smacked of partiality. I am afraid it is Duffield, Rosie Lewis, Clive the same the other way around and I will therefore Eagle, Ms Angela Linden, David oppose the amendment. I obviously support the motion. Eagle, Maria Lloyd, Tony Question put, That the amendment be made. Eastwood, Colum Long Bailey, Rebecca Edwards, Jonathan Lucas, Caroline The House divided: Ayes 261, Noes 334. Efford, Clive Lynch, Holly Elliott, Julie MacAskill, Kenny Division No. 167] [7.58 pm Elmore, Chris MacNeil, Angus Brendan Eshalomi, Florence Madders, Justin AYES Esterson, Bill Mahmood, Mr Khalid Abbott, rh Ms Diane Beckett, rh Margaret Evans, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Abrahams, Debbie Begum, Apsana Farron, Tim Malhotra, Seema Ali, Rushanara Benn, rh Hilary Farry, Stephen Maskell, Rachael Ali, Tahir Betts, Mr Clive Fellows, Marion Matheson, Christian Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Black, Mhairi Ferrier, Margaret Mc Nally, John Amesbury, Mike Blackford, rh Ian Fletcher, Colleen McCabe, Steve Anderson, Fleur Blackman, Kirsty Flynn, Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Antoniazzi, Tonia Blake, Olivia Fovargue, Yvonne McDonald, Andy Ashworth, Jonathan Blomfield, Paul Foxcroft, Vicky McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Bardell, Hannah Bonnar, Steven Foy, Mary Kelly McDonald, Stuart C. Barker, Paula Brabin, Tracy Gardiner, Barry McDonnell, rh John 861 Committee on Standards10 NOVEMBER 2020 Committee on Standards 862

McFadden, rh Mr Pat Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Brokenshire, rh James Gale, rh Sir Roger McGinn, Conor Saville Roberts, rh Liz Browne, Anthony Garnier, Mark McGovern, Alison Shah, Naz Bruce, Fiona Ghani, Ms Nusrat McKinnell, Catherine Sharma, Mr Virendra Buchan, Felicity Gibb, rh Nick McLaughlin, Anne Sheerman, Mr Barry Buckland, rh Robert Gibson, Peter McMahon, Jim Sheppard, Tommy Burghart, Alex Gideon, Jo McMorrin, Anna Siddiq, Tulip Burns, rh Conor Gillan, rh Dame Cheryl Mearns, Ian Slaughter, Andy Cairns, rh Alun Glen, John Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Alyn Carter, Andy Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Mishra, Navendu Smith, Cat Cartlidge, James Gove, rh Michael Monaghan, Carol Smith, Jeff Cash, Sir William Graham, Richard Moran, Layla Smith, Nick Caulfield, Maria Grant, Mrs Helen Morden, Jessica Smyth, Karin Chalk, Alex Grayling, rh Chris Morgan, Stephen Sobel, Alex Chishti, Rehman Green, Chris Morris, Grahame Spellar, rh John Churchill, Jo Green, rh Damian Murray, Ian Stephens, Chris Clark, rh Greg Griffith, Andrew Murray, James Stevens, Jo Clarke, Mr Simon Grundy, James Nandy, Lisa Stone, Jamie Clarke, Theo Gullis, Jonathan Newlands, Gavin Streeting, Wes Clarke-Smith, Brendan Halfon, rh Robert Nichols, Charlotte Stringer, Graham Clarkson, Chris Hall, Luke Nicolson, John Sultana, Zarah Cleverly, rh James Hammond, Stephen Norris, Alex Tami, rh Mark Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hancock, rh Matt O’Hara, Brendan Tarry, Sam Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hands, rh Greg Olney, Sarah Thewliss, Alison Colburn, Elliot Harper, rh Mr Mark Onwurah, Chi Thomas, Gareth Collins, Damian Harris, Rebecca Oppong-Asare, Abena Thomas-Symonds, Nick Costa, Alberto Harrison, Trudy Osamor, Kate Thornberry, rh Emily Courts, Robert Hart, Sally-Ann Osborne, Kate Timms, rh Stephen Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hart, rh Simon Oswald, Kirsten Trickett, Jon Crosbie, Virginia Hayes, rh Sir John Owatemi, Taiwo Turner, Karl Crouch, Tracey Heald, rh Sir Oliver Owen, Sarah Vaz, rh Valerie Daly, James Heappey, James Peacock, Stephanie Webbe, Claudia Davies, David T. C. Heaton-Harris, Chris Pennycook, Matthew West, Catherine Davies, Gareth Henry, Darren Perkins, Mr Toby Western, Matt Davies, Dr James Higginbotham, Antony Phillips, Jess Whitehead, Dr Alan Davies, Mims Hinds, rh Damian Phillipson, Bridget Whitford, Dr Philippa Davies, Philip Hoare, Simon Pollard, Luke Whitley, Mick Davison, Dehenna Holden, Mr Richard Powell, Lucy Whittome, Nadia Dinenage, Caroline Hollinrake, Kevin Qureshi, Yasmin Williams, Hywel Dines, Miss Sarah Hollobone, Mr Philip Rayner, Angela Wilson, Munira Docherty, Leo Holloway, Adam Reed, Steve Winter, Beth Donelan, Michelle Holmes, Paul Rees, Christina Wishart, Pete Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, John Reeves, Ellie Double, Steve Howell, Paul Yasin, Mohammad Reeves, Rachel Dowden, rh Oliver Huddleston, Nigel Zeichner, Daniel Reynolds, Jonathan Drax, Richard Hudson, Dr Neil Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Tellers for the Ayes: Drummond, Mrs Flick Hughes, Eddie Rimmer, Ms Marie Bambos Charalambous and Duddridge, James Hunt, Jane Rodda, Matt Liz Twist Duguid, David Hunt, Tom Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jack, rh Mr Alister NOES Eastwood, Mark Javid, rh Sajid Edwards, Ruth Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Adams, Nigel Baker, Mr Steve Ellis, rh Michael Jenkinson, Mark Afolami, Bim Barclay, rh Steve Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkyns, Andrea Afriyie, Adam Baron, Mr John Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenrick, rh Robert Ahmad Khan, Imran Baynes, Simon Eustice, rh George Johnson, Dr Caroline Aiken, Nickie Bell, Aaron Evans, Dr Luke Johnson, Gareth Aldous, Peter Benton, Scott Evennett, rh Sir David Johnston, David Allan, Lucy Beresford, Sir Paul Everitt, Ben Jones, Andrew Amess, Sir David Berry, rh Jake Fabricant, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Anderson, Lee Bhatti, Saqib Farris, Laura Jones, Fay Anderson, Stuart Blackman, Bob Fell, Simon Jones, Mr Marcus Andrew, Stuart Blunt, Crispin Fletcher, Katherine Jupp, Simon Ansell, Caroline Bone, Mr Peter Fletcher, Mark Kawczynski, Daniel Argar, Edward Bowie, Andrew Fletcher, Nick Kearns, Alicia Atherton, Sarah Bradley, Ben Ford, Vicky Keegan, Gillian Atkins, Victoria Brady, Sir Graham Foster, Kevin Knight, rh Sir Greg Bacon, Gareth Braverman, rh Suella Fox, rh Dr Liam Knight, Julian Bacon, Mr Richard Brereton, Jack Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Badenoch, Kemi Bridgen, Andrew Frazer, Lucy Lamont, John Bailey, Shaun Brine, Steve Freer, Mike Largan, Robert Baillie, Siobhan Bristow, Paul Fuller, Richard Latham, Mrs Pauline Baker, Duncan Britcliffe, Sara Fysh, Mr Marcus Leadsom, rh Andrea 863 Committee on Standards10 NOVEMBER 2020 Committee on Standards 864

Leigh, rh Sir Edward Mumby-Croft, Holly Shapps, rh Grant Trott, Laura Levy, Ian Mundell, rh David Sharma, rh Alok Truss, rh Elizabeth Lewer, Andrew Murray, Mrs Sheryll Shelbrooke, rh Alec Tugendhat, Tom Lewis, rh Brandon Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Simmonds, David Vara, Mr Shailesh Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Neill, Sir Robert Skidmore, rh Chris Vickers, Martin Loder, Chris Nici, Lia Smith, Chloe Vickers, Matt Logan, Mark Nokes, rh Caroline Smith, Greg Villiers, rh Theresa Longhi, Marco Norman, rh Jesse Smith, Henry Wakeford, Christian Lopez, Julia O’Brien, Neil Smith, Royston Walker, Mr Robin Lopresti, Jack Offord, Dr Matthew Solloway, Amanda Wallace, rh Mr Ben Lord, Mr Jonathan Opperman, Guy Spencer, Dr Ben Wallis, Dr Jamie Loughton, Tim Parish, Neil Spencer, rh Mark Warburton, David Mackinlay, Craig Paterson, rh Mr Owen Stafford, Alexander Warman, Matt Mackrory, Cherilyn Pawsey, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Watling, Giles Maclean, Rachel Penning, rh Sir Mike Stevenson, Jane Webb, Suzanne Mak, Alan Penrose, John Stevenson, John Whately, Helen Malthouse, Kit Percy, Andrew Stewart, Bob Wheeler, Mrs Heather Mangnall, Anthony Philp, Chris Stewart, Iain Whittaker, Craig Mann, Scott Pincher, rh Christopher Streeter, Sir Gary Whittingdale, rh Mr John Marson, Julie Poulter, Dr Dan Stride, rh Mel Wiggin, Bill May, rh Mrs Theresa Pow, Rebecca Stuart, Graham Wild, James Mayhew, Jerome Prentis, Victoria Sturdy, Julian Williams, Craig Maynard, Paul Pritchard, Mark Sunderland, James Williamson, rh Gavin McCartney, Karl Pursglove, Tom Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Wood, Mike McPartland, Stephen Quin, Jeremy Syms, Sir Robert Wragg, Mr William McVey, rh Esther Quince, Will Thomas, Derek Wright, rh Jeremy Menzies, Mark Raab, rh Dominic Timpson, Edward Young, Jacob Mercer, Johnny Randall, Tom Tolhurst, Kelly Zahawi, Nadhim Merriman, Huw Redwood, rh John Tomlinson, Justin Metcalfe, Stephen Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Tomlinson, Michael Tellers for the Noes: Millar, Robin Richards, Nicola Tracey, Craig Maggie Throup and Milling, rh Amanda Richardson, Angela Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie David Rutley Mills, Nigel Roberts, Rob Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Question accordingly negatived. Mohindra, Mr Gagan Robinson, Mary Moore, Damien Rosindell, Andrew The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a Moore, Robbie Ross, Douglas proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their Mordaunt, rh Penny Rowley, Lee proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates. Morris, Anne Marie Russell, Dean Main Question put and agreed to. Morris, David Sambrook, Gary Morris, James Saxby, Selaine Resolved, Morrissey, Joy Scully, Paul That, in accordance with Standing Order No. 149A, Professor Morton, Wendy Seely, Bob Michael Maguire CBE be appointed as lay member of the Committee Mullan, Dr Kieran Selous, Andrew on Standards for a period of six years, with immediate effect. 865 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Business without Debate 866

Business without Debate (a) to send for persons, papers and records; (b) to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House; (c) to report from time to time; DELEGATED LEGISLATION (d) to appoint specialist advisers; and Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): With (e) to adjourn from place to place within the United the leave of the House, we shall take motions 8 to Kingdom. 10 together. (5) That the quorum of the Committee shall be four. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing (6) That Aaron Bell, Chris Bryant, Jackie Doyle-Price, Ms Angela Eagle, Maria Eagle, Peter Gibson, Mr Robert Goodwill, David Order No. 118(6)), Linden, Alan Mak, Mrs Maria Miller, John Spellar, Alexander Stafford, Mr Shailesh Vara and Craig Whittaker be members of EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION the Committee.—(David T. C. Davies.) (ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION) That the draft Persistent Organic Pollutants (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on PETITION 8 October, be approved. Resolving conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh region EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION (AGRICULTURE) That the draft Pesticides (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were la id before this House on 8 October, be 8.12 pm approved. Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): I EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION rise to present a petition addressing the need for the (PUBLIC PROCUREMENT) resolution of the ongoing conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, That the draft Defence and Security Public Contracts (Amendment) which seems to have been flaring all summer and (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on subsequently the world seems not to have noticed much. 7 October, be approved.—(David T. C. Davies.) Dozens of people in Ealing Central and Acton have Question agreed to. signed this, reflecting the fact that I have the constituency with the most people of Armenian origin in the country BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (11 NOVEMBER) and the chair of the Armenian National Committee UK, Annette Moskofian, who just wants peace. Ordered, That, at the sitting on Wednesday 11 November, the Motions in the name of the Prime Minister relating to (a) remembrance, The petition notes that the UK Government should UK armed forces and society and (b) covid-19 may be entered play a greater diplomatic and humanitarian role in upon at any hour and proceeded with, though opposed, for up to establishing a fair and equitable peace settlement in the three hours and six hours respectively from the commencement of Nagorno-Karabakh region. The petitioners note that proceedings on the first Motion; and proceedings on each Motion the UK should formally recognise the republic of Artsakh shall lapse if not previously disposed.—(David T. C. Davies.) and further note that the Government must not allow the growing influence of Russia and Turkey in the JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE FIXED-TERM region to go unchecked. The petitioners therefore request PARLIAMENTS ACT that the House of Commons urges the Government to Ordered, play a greater diplomatic and humanitarian role. (1) That it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Following is the full text of the petition: Commons be appointed to: [The petition of residents of the constituency of Ealing (a) carry out a review of the operation of the Fixed-term Central and Acton in London, Parliaments Act 2011, pursuant to section 7 of that Act, and if appropriate in consequence of its findings, Declares that the UK Government should play a greater make recommendations for the repeal or amendment diplomatic and humanitarian role in resolving the conflict of that Act; and in the Nagorno-Karabakh region; further that the UK (b) consider, as part of its work under subparagraph (a), Government should impose firmer sanctions on parties and report on any draft Government Bill on the repeal that break the terms of ceasefires; and further that of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 presented to ceasefires between the two States must be unconditional both Houses in this session. and strictly observed by both parties. (2) That a Select Committee of fourteen Members be appointed The petitioners therefore request that the House of to join with any committee to be appointed by the Lords for this Commons urges the Government to play a greater diplomatic purpose. and humanitarian role in resolving the conflict in the (3) That the Committee should publish its findings and any Nagorno-Karabakh region. recommendations and report on any draft Bill by Friday 26 February 2021. And the petitioners remain, etc.] (4) That the Committee shall have power: [P002622] 867 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Safety and Littering: A34 and A420 868

Safety and Littering: A34 and A420 with the road: because it is so difficult to cross—because of the amount of traffic, the speeding that goes on and That this House Motion made, and Question proposed, the HGVs that go down it all day long, from morning do now adjourn. —(Eddie Hughes.) till night—constituents are known to get a bus down the A420 to cross at one of the few crossings, and then get 8.14 pm the bus back, because they cannot make a simple journey David Johnston (Wantage) (Con): It is a pleasure to straight across the road. have secured my first Adjournment debate. As some None of our constituents should have to live like Members will know already, one of my major transport that, and we must again make the A420 a local road requests is the reopening of Grove station, which was that is suitable for the people who live in that community. one of the stations cut in the Beeching cuts.My constituents That means a number of things. It means a proper bus have wanted it to be reopened for more than 40 years now. service with safe stops along the route, as well as safe It would better connect the people of Grove, where a lot pathways for those who are on foot or on their bike. We more housing is due to go, it would get people off the need traffic light crossings and pedestrian crossings roads I am about to talk about, and of course it would along the route—it is really quite a long route. We need improve our environment. I have got my bid in to the better signage that diverts HGVs, which should not Restoring Your Railway fund, and I have everything really be on the road anyway, away from it and reduces the crossed for hopeful news at some point in the future. speed on it, and importantly, that will have to be enforced. However, that is not my constituency’s only transport Of course, that should be the responsibility of challenge. In fact, we have two issues on two roads, Oxfordshire County Council, but the council says that which add up to one big problem for the people in my it does not have the money to make the improvements, constituency. What I will talk about is the responsibility even though it recognises that they are needed. I would partly of Government, partly of Highways England therefore like the Minister to respond to the question of and partly of the councils, both county and district. how we might remedy that situation, because it has I will begin with the A420. The A420 has two sections, gone on for far too long and my constituents should not and I make no apology for being most concerned with have to deal with it. the section that goes through my constituency, from Let me turn to the A34 which, again, is in two down near Shrivenham and Watchfield, up through the sections. Again, I make no apologies for being most Coxwells, round Faringdon, across through Littleworth, concerned about the section that goes through my Buckland and Kingston Bagpuize, and up through Fyfield constituency, which in this case starts in the south and and Tubney, which I will come back to in a moment. goes past Chilton, Harwell, Didcot, Steventon, Milton The road is known locally—it has been for a couple and Drayton as it as it heads north. I know that many of decades now—as a “road to hell” or “Hell’s Drive”. Members of this House have some experience of the The fundamental problem is that it is very unsafe. It is A34. In the past six years we have had 50 fatal crashes supposed to be a local road going through a predominantly on this road, and 2,593 crashes overall, which is more rural area, but it is used for commercial traffic between than one every single day. Again, those figures are only Oxford and Swindon, with a lot of heavy goods vehicles, for crashes that involve people being injured; they are which I will come back to, and as a shortcut between not the figures for just damage to cars. On Thursday, I the M4 and the M40. All that adds up to too much was told that I had secured this Adjournment debate; traffic, and too much traffic of the wrong kind—traffic there was a crash on the A34 on the Tuesday beforehand that is too heavy for what was built as a local road. and on the Friday the day after—and I am just talking To put the safety issues in context, because that about the section that is in Oxfordshire. traffic adds up to a lot of accidents, we have had 12 fatal When it comes to the A34, the problem is much accidents in the three years to 2019, compared with better documented. Highways England has recommended five fatal accidents in the three years before that, so the a number of safety improvements. As some of those problem has been getting worse. Overall, there have improvements have been made, I ask the Minister when been 1,057 accidents in the past six years, which averages we can expect the other improvements, because my at nearly one accident every other day. The important constituents try to avoid this road because of the safety thing about that statistic is that it is only for accidents issues. I should say that that question is separate from that were reported to the police because someone was that of improving connectivity across the region. The injured; it does not account for all the other accidents safety issues have been going on for some time, but we know happen that simply involve vehicle damage. there is a separate question about how to improve With those, I think that figure would be a lot higher. Of connections for people going across the region. course, the safety issues are predominantly for the vehicles on the roads, but they are also an issue for cyclists and Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): I am grateful to those on foot, because I stress that this is supposed to be the hon. Gentleman for giving way on this important a local road. All the way along the road, people live issue, which is of great seriousness to residents across the near it and need to be able to cross it. Thames valley—it is good to see that the hon. Member One good example of the problem is when we get to for Newbury (Laura Farris) is also in her place. the villages of Fyfield and Tubney, which the A420 goes I fully support the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about through, Fyfield on one side and Tubney on the other. safety on the road, which affects people living in the In order to do anything other than simply stay in their Reading area as well. Does he agree that another potential houses all day every day, people need to be able to cross safety issue is that traffic can come off the A34 at the road. The numbers may be small, but the problem Didcot, travel through Didcot and past Wallingford, and affects 100% of the community. I hope that this brings then take the A4074 into the northern part of Reading home to the House how extraordinary the situation is and use Reading as a shortcut to get on to the M4? 869 Safety and Littering: A34 and A42010 NOVEMBER 2020 Safety and Littering: A34 and A420 870

[Matt Rodda] In September 2017, the A34 action group invited Highways England to undertake an analysis of the A34. Wehave serious concerns about traffic taking that shortcut At its direction, I use data from the CrashMap website, route, which affects the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, which reports accidents. Between Newbury and East Ilsley, the constituency of the hon. Member for Henley a distance of about nine miles, there were 70 crashes (John Howell) and the Reading East constituency. over a period of five years that resulted in injury, with 11 fatalities—most recently Oliver Williams, a 27-year-old David Johnston: The hon. Gentleman makes an Cambridge graduate who was killed last month. I was important point, for which I thank him. We have all delighted to receive a letter from Highways England in sorts of issues in Didcot and Wallingford exactly as he October committing to upgrades of the road. Last describes regarding those roads being used in that way. I week, I received a letter from the Secretary of State am talking about certain roads; were this a Westminster about those upgrades. However, I noticed that the focus Hall debate, we could probably talk for an hour and a of his correspondence was on improving congestion half about the issues of traffic and shortcuts and what and commuter times along the route, and secondarily people are trying to do to get around roads that do not on improving air and noise pollution. I hope that the work effectively. Minister will understand when I say that, while those Wethen come to litter.I have had reports and complaints improvements are welcome, the primary issue, as my about litter on both roads. I have had complaints about hon. Friend the Member for Wantage said, remains the A420, but it is fair to say that I get many more about safety. the A34. The litter itself is a safety issue. People drop all I undertook a residents survey earlier this year and sorts—cars, lorries and road workers are dropping plastic must relay the findings. The junctions at East Ilsley—north bags, plastic bottles, tyres and a whole range of other and southbound—where Oliver Williams lost his life things, which are unsightly and unsafe for constituents, are particularly precarious, as are the junctions at Beedon, and not good for the environment either. Speen and Wash Common. All the residents who When it comes to litter, a couple of odd situations contributed said that much longer slip roads were required need to be remedied. One is that one company is responsible and asked for warning signs. In addition, there is a need for mowing the verges along the A34 and another is to address a particular section of the road close to East responsible for picking up the litter. That strikes me as Ilsley that is effectively a switchback with some blind pretty inefficient. Understandably, Highways England corners. It is rare for a car accident to make it into the will not allow the A34 to be closed during the day national news, but four years ago a lorry driver not only because of how much traffic goes along it, which means ploughed into the back of a car but went right over it at that the company has to try to pick the litter at night, that point of the A34, killing Tracy Houghton, her sons which is, of course, much more difficult. The question Josh and Ethan and her stepdaughter Aimee. It was one on littering, which I pose to the Minister and which a of the worst car accidents that the UK saw that year. number of constituents posed to me, is: why can Highways Most reporting of that case rightly focused on the fact England not be responsible for clearing litter on the that the lorry driver had been using his phone, and that A34? It has a number of other responsibilities to do his eyes had actually not been on the road for 45 seconds with highways, and it would make sense—given that prior to the crash. However, less well known is that he this growing problem is a regular cause of complaint had just completed the switchback section and was at a from my constituents—for it to be responsible for this, blind corner, and when he came around it, a line of given that it makes it difficult to clear the litter another stationary cars had built up that he did not see. way. Everyone who responded to my survey, including In conclusion, these two roads present huge challenges several who cited that crash, asked for either speed for my constituents—noise problems, tremors from HGV limits on that section of the road or for a dedicated lorries making their houses vibrate, the littering problems HGV lane to be created. Although Highways England’s that I described and, more than anything, safety issues, plans for this stretch of road are welcome, I respectfully with crash after crash and near miss after near miss. request that safety, rather than convenience, becomes Everybody in the House should agree that it is one thing the priority. for someone to avoid a road because there might be traffic and they fear they will be delayed, but it is an 8.29 pm entirely different thing to avoid a road because they think there will be accidents and they fear they might be The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport injured. In the case of both roads, my constituents have (Rachel Maclean): I congratulate my hon. Friend the dealt with that fear for far too long. Member for Wantage (David Johnston) on securing this important debate to raise the crucial issues of safety 8.25 pm and litter on two of the key roads in his constituency, Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con): I am very grateful to the A34 and the A420. Before I continue my remarks, I my colleague and friend, my hon. Friend the Member must touch on the point he raised about Grove station. for Wantage (David Johnston), for securing this debate. I assure him that the Department has received his bid. I will confine my remarks to the A34, which runs from We were delighted to receive it and we expect to announce north to south through the heart of my constituency. I the results soon. must start by paying tribute to my predecessor,and indeed My hon. Friend has done an excellent job of outlining my hon. Friend’s predecessor—Richard Benyon in my to the House his constituents’ concern about the A420, case, Lord Vaizey in his—because they did a lot of which he notes is known locally as the “road to hell”. work, together with the A34 action group, assiduously None of us would wish that situation upon our constituents, compiling data about accidents that occurred on the and I well understand the concerns he has described. road and applying for funds. He has described his mission and vision for the A420 as 871 Safety and Littering: A34 and A42010 NOVEMBER 2020 Safety and Littering: A34 and A420 872 ensuring that it is once again a local road, and he has I recognise fully the unpleasant impacts of roadside helpfully outlined a number of detailed improvements litter, and the Government are committed to continuing we can look to make. I urge him to work closely with to target the issue of litter on our road network, combining Oxfordshire County Council, specifically on the funding prevention with cure, in order to make our roads clean issue, which I will address. He also talked about the A34, and safe places to work and travel. Each local highway emphasising that the figures provided by the Department authority is responsible for clearing litter on the roads do not always tell the true story, because they do not for which it is responsible. In the case of the A34 in my always incorporate the damage to vehicles as well. hon. Friend’s constituency, which is part of the strategic My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris) road network, the responsibility falls to the local district highlighted the tragic death of her constituent, and I council. As elsewhere, however, Highways England understand that there have been other deaths as well. recognises its responsibility and works in partnership Again, that is a matter of great concern. She highlights with local authorities to reduce littering on the A34, for that she wishes us to look again at the issue of safety on example, by giving them access during planned roadworks. this road, and I am happy to let her know that Baroness In that way, nearly half a tonne of litter and other Vere will be delighted to meet her. The hon. Member for debris was collected on 21 September alone—an astonishing Reading East (Matt Rodda) has again added his voice figure, as I am sure hon. Members agree. as another constituency MP who has experienced concerns I turn to the specific work under way intended to about this road, and he also highlighted the priority of improve safety on the A34. My hon. Friend referred to safety for his constituents. the proposed safety improvements for it, and I can I need to remind the House that the A34 forms part confirm that Highways England has been carrying out of the strategic road network managed by Highways a £12.1 million programme of safety improvements on England, whereas the A420 is a local road managed by it, most of which, I am pleased to say, are now complete. Oxfordshire County Council. Our strategic road network is among the safest road networks in the world. The The Secretary of State has also asked Highways Government’s second road investment strategy, published England to commence a new project focusing on the in March, set out how we will invest £27.4 billion in A34 between the M4 and the M40 that will consider England’sstrategic road network to ensure that it continues options for interventions to alleviate congestion now to provide the safe and reliable connectivity that the and in the future, as well as to improve safety for road country needs.This includes funding proactive maintenance users. I understand that Highways England has already and ring-fenced funding for specific priority issues, such arranged a meeting with my hon. Friend to hear his as addressing safety and congestion. However, we have views on the road as part of the project. If that is not heard the specific concerns raised by Members and we the case, I would be delighted to work with him to are investing in two specific projects for the A34, including facilitate that meeting. Of course, I encourage him to safety improvements to which my hon. Friend the Member take the opportunity to work closely with Highways for Wantage refers. England on its development. The safety of the wider road network is of equal I conclude by thanking Members of the House,including importance. For local roads such as the A420, safety is the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. the responsibility of the relevant local authority. Let me Friend the Member for Witney (Robert Courts), who is highlight that the Government provide financial support sitting on the Front Bench with me and is also affected to local authorities to meet that and other related by that road in his west Oxfordshire constituency. It is a responsibilities. For Oxfordshire, the highway maintenance road that touches many hon. Members’ constituencies funding allocation from the Department is more than and gives rise to many concerns for Members of the £27 million for the financial year 2020-21, and additionally House and local communities. I thank my hon. Friend in the same year Oxfordshire has been allocated more the Member for Wantage for securing the debate and than £3.6 million through the integrated transport block raising these important issues. for capital investment in small transport improvement Question put and agreed to. projects, which can be for road safety. My hon. Friend has highlighted some issues on the A420. I understand that this is the responsibility of Oxfordshire County Council and I encourage him to engage further with the 8.36 pm council and with Baroness Vere on the specific issue if he is not satisfied. House adjourned. 873 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 874

Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

The following is the list of Members currently certified Bob Blackman (Harrow East) Stuart Andrew as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members (Con) nominated as their proxy: Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen Patrick Grady North) (SNP) Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Chris Elmore Hallam) (Lab) Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney Bell Ribeiro-Addy North and Stoke Newington) Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Chris Elmore (Lab) Central) (Lab) Nigel Adams (Selby and Stuart Andrew Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) Stuart Andrew Ainsty) (Con) Mr Peter Bone Stuart Andrew Imran Ahmad Khan Stuart Andrew (Wellingborough) (Con) (Wakefield) (Con) Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Patrick Grady Nickie Aiken (Cities of Stuart Andrew Chryston and Bellshill) (SNP) London and Westminster) Ben Bradley (Mansfield) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con) Stuart Andrew Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) Chris Elmore Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green Chris Elmore (Lab) and Bow) (Lab) Suella Braverman (Fareham) Stuart Andrew Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Chris Elmore (Con) Green) (Lab) Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West Chris Elmore Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con) Mark Spencer ) (Lab) Dr Rosena Allin-Khan Chris Elmore Andrew Bridgen (North West Stuart Andrew (Tooting) (Lab) Leicestershire) (Con) Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) Chris Elmore Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Sir David Amess (Southend Stuart Andrew James Brokenshire (Old Stuart Andrew West) (Con) Bexley and Sidcup) (Con) Stuart Anderson Stuart Andrew Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Patrick Grady (Wolverhampton South West) Loudon (SNP) (Con) Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) Chris Elmore Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Chris Bryant (Rhondda) Chris Elmore Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) Ms Karen Buck (Westminster Chris Elmore Edward Argar (Charnwood) Stuart Andrew North) (Lab) (Con) Robert Buckland (South Stuart Andrew Victoria Atkins (Louth and Stuart Andrew Swindon) (Con) Horncastle) (Con) Alex Burghart (Brentwood Stuart Andrew Mr Richard Bacon (South Stuart Andrew and Ongar) (Con) Norfolk) (Con) Richard Burgon (Leeds East) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Kemi Badenoch (Saffron Stuart Andrew (Lab) Walden) (Con) Conor Burns (Bournemouth Stuart Andrew Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) Stuart Andrew West) (Con) (Con) Dawn Butler (Brent Central) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Steve Barclay (North East Stuart Andrew (Lab) Cambridgeshire) (Con) Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Hannah Bardell (Livingston) Patrick Grady Hodge Hill) (Lab) (SNP) Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Chris Elmore Mr John Baron (Basildon and Stuart Andrew Derby) (Lab) Billericay) (Con) Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Chris Elmore Margaret Beckett (Derby Chris Elmore Isleworth) (Lab) South) (Lab) Alun Cairns (Vale of Stuart Andrew Scott Benton (Blackpool Stuart Andrew Glamorgan) (Con) South) (Con) Amy Callaghan (East Patrick Grady Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Stuart Andrew Dunbartonshire) (SNP) Valley) (Con) Dr Lisa Cameron (East Patrick Grady Jake Berry (Rossendale and Stuart Andrew Kilbride, Strathaven and Darwen) (Con) Lesmahagow) (SNP) Clive Betts (Sheffield South Chris Elmore Mr Gregory Campbell (East Gavin Robinson East) (Lab) Londonderry) (DUP) Mhairi Black (Paisley and Patrick Grady Andy Carter (Warrington Stuart Andrew Renfrewshire South) (SNP) South) (Con) Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Patrick Grady James Cartlidge (South Stuart Andrew Lochaber) (SNP) Suffolk) (Con) 875 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote10 NOVEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 876

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Sir William Cash (Stone) Stuart Andrew Gareth Davies (Grantham Stuart Andrew (Con) and Stamford) (Con) Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) Stuart Andrew Mims Davies (Mid Sussex) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Sarah Champion (Rotherham) Chris Elmore Alex Davies-Jones Chris Elmore (Lab) (Pontypridd) (Lab) Douglas Chapman Patrick Grady Mr David Davis (Haltemprice Stuart Andrew (Dunfermline and West Fife) and Howden) (Con) (SNP) Martyn Day (Linlithgow and Patrick Grady Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh Patrick Grady East Falkirk) (SNP) South West) (SNP) Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol Chris Elmore Rehman Chishti (Gillingham Stuart Andrew West) (Lab) and Rainham) (Con) Marsha De Cordova Rachel Hopkins Jo Churchill (Bury Stuart Andrew (Battersea) St Edmunds) (Con) Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi Chris Elmore Mr Simon Clarke Stuart Andrew (Slough) (Lab) (Middlesbrough South and Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) Stuart Andrew East Cleveland) (Con) (Con) Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con) Stuart Andrew Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Stuart Andrew Brendan Clarke-Smith Stuart Andrew Dales) (Con) (Bassetlaw) (Con) Martin Docherty-Hughes Patrick Grady Chris Clarkson (Heywood Stuart Andrew (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP) and Middleton) (Con) Sir Jeffrey Donaldson (Lagan Carla Lockhart James Cleverly (Braintree) Stuart Andrew Valley) (DUP) (Con) Michelle Donelan Stuart Andrew Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Stuart Andrew (Chippenham) (Con) Coastal) (Con) Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP) Patrick Grady Damian Collins (Folkestone Stuart Andrew Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick Patrick Grady and Hythe) (Con) and Cumnock) (SNP) Daisy Cooper (St Albans) Wendy Chamberlain Ms Nadine Dorries (Mid Stuart Andrew (LD) Bedfordshire) (Con) Rosie Cooper (West Chris Elmore Steve Double (St Austell and Stuart Andrew Lancashire) (Lab) Newquay) (Con) Jeremy Corbyn (Islington Bell Ribeiro-Addy Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab) Chris Elmore North) (Ind) Oliver Dowden (Hertsmere) Stuart Andrew Alberto Costa (South Stuart Andrew (Con) Leicestershire) (Con) Richard Drax (South Dorset) Stuart Andrew Claire Coutinho (East Surrey) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) Patrick Grady Erdington) (Lab) (SNP) Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Stuart Andrew Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and Stuart Andrew Valley) (Con) West Devon) (Con) James Duddridge (Rochford Stuart Andrew Angela Crawley (Lanark and Patrick Grady and Southend East) (Con) Hamilton East) (SNP) Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) Chris Elmore Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) Chris Elmore (Lab) (Lab) Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) Jeremy Hunt Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Caroline Nokes Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) Chris Elmore Aylesford) (Con) (Lab) Jon Cruddas (Dagenham and Chris Elmore Maria Eagle (Garston and Chris Elmore Rainham) (Lab) Halewood) (Lab) John Cryer (Leyton and Chris Elmore Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) Stuart Andrew Wanstead) (Lab) (Con) Judith Cummins (Bradford Chris Elmore Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) Stuart Andrew South) (Lab) (Con) Alex Cunningham (Stockton Chris Elmore Julie Elliott (Sunderland Chris Elmore North) (Lab) Central) (Lab) Janet Daby (Lewisham East) Chris Elmore Michael Ellis (Northampton Stuart Andrew (Lab) North) (Con) James Daly (Bury North) Stuart Andrew Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Ed Davey (Kingston and Wendy Chamberlain Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) Chris Elmore Surbiton) (LD) (Lab/Co-op) Geraint Davies (Swansea Chris Evans Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) Chris Elmore West) (Lab/Co-op) (Lab) 877 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote10 NOVEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 878

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

George Eustice (Camborne Stuart Andrew Kate Green (Stretford and Chris Elmore and Redruth) (Con) Urmston) (Lab) Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) Stuart Andrew Lilian Greenwood Chris Elmore (Con) (Nottingham South) (Lab) Sir David Evennett Stuart Andrew Margaret Greenwood (Wirral Chris Elmore (Bexleyheath and Crayford) West) (Lab) (Con) Andrew Griffith (Arundel and Stuart Andrew Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) Stuart Andrew South Downs) (Con) (Con) Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Chris Elmore Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Reddish) (Lab) Stephen Farry (North Down) Wendy Chamberlain Robert Halfon (Harlow) Rebecca Harris (Alliance) (Con) Marion Fellows (Motherwell Patrick Grady Luke Hall (Thornbury and Stuart Andrew and Wishaw) (SNP) Yate) (Con) Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen Jonathan Edwards Fabian Hamilton (Leeds Chris Elmore and Hamilton West) (Ind) North East) (Lab) Katherine Fletcher (South Stuart Andrew Stephen Hammond Stuart Andrew Ribble) (Con) (Wimbledon) ( Con) Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen Patrick Grady Matt Hancock (West Suffolk) Stuart Andrew South) (SNP) (Con) Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) Stuart Andrew Greg Hands (Chelsea and Stuart Andrew (Con) Fulham) (Con) Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con) Stuart Andrew Claire Hanna (Belfast South) Ben Lake Yvonne Fovargue Chris Elmore (SDLP) (Makerfield) (Lab) Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Patrick Grady Dr Liam Fox (North Stuart Andrew Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Somerset) (Con) Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Chris Elmore Hull West and Hessle) (Lab) Deptford) (Lab) Ms Harriet Harman Chris Elmore Mary Kelly Foy (City of Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Camberwell and Peckham) Durham) (Lab) (Lab) Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh Stuart Andrew Trudy Harrison (Copeland) Stuart Andrew and Wickford) (Con) (Con) Lucy Frazer (South East Stuart Andrew Simon Hart (Carmarthen Stuart Andrew Cambridgeshire) (Con) West and South George Freeman (Mid Bim Afolami Pembrokeshire) (Con) Norfolk) (Con) Sir Oliver Heald (North East Stuart Andrew Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) Stuart Andrew Hertfordshire) (Con) Sir Roger Gale (North Caroline Nokes James Heappey (Wells) (Con) Stuart Andrew Thanet) (Con) Chris Heaton-Harris Stuart Andrew Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Stuart Andrew (Daventry) (Con) Littlehampton) (Con) Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) Chris Elmore Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Stuart Andrew (Lab/Co-op) Central) (Con) Drew Hendry (Inverness, Patrick Grady Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Nairn, Badenoch and Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op) Strathspey) (SNP) Dame Cheryl Gillan Stuart Andrew Mike Hill (Hartlepool) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Chesham and Amersham) Damian Hinds (East Stuart Andrew (Con) Hampshire) (Con) John Glen (Salisbury) (Con) Stuart Andrew Simon Hoare (North Dorset) Stuart Andrew Mary Glindon (North Chris Elmore (Con) Tyneside) (Lab) Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD) Wendy Chamberlain Mr Robert Goodwill Stuart Andrew Dame Margaret Hodge Chris Elmore (Scarborough and Whitby) (Barking) (Lab) (Con) Mrs Sharon Hodgson Chris Elmore Michael Gove (Surrey Heath) Stuart Andrew (Washington and Sunderland (Con) West) (Lab) Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone Stuart Andrew Kate Hollern (Blackburn) Chris Elmore and The Weald) (Con) (Lab) Peter Grant (Glenrothes) Patrick Grady Adam Holloway (Gravesham) Maria Caulfield (SNP) (Con) Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) Patrick Grady Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) Patrick Grady (SNP) (SNP) Chris Grayling (Epsom and Stuart Andrew Sir George Howarth Chris Elmore Ewell) (Con) (Knowsley) (Lab) 879 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote10 NOVEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 880

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Paul Howell (Sedgefield) Stuart Andrew Chris Law (Dundee West) Patrick Grady (Con) (SNP) Nigel Huddleston (Mid Stuart Andrew Andrea Leadsom (South Stuart Andrew Worcestershire) (Con) Northamptonshire) (Con) Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and Stuart Andrew Sir Edward Leigh Stuart Andrew The Border) (Con) (Gainsborough) (Con) Jane Hunt (Loughborough) Stuart Andrew Ian Levy (Blyth Valley) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Con) Brandon Lewis (Great Stuart Andrew Imran Hussain (Bradford Bell Ribeiro-Addy Yarmouth) (Con) East) (Lab) Clive Lewis (Norwich South) Chris Elmore Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries Stuart Andrew (Lab) and Galloway) (Con) Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger Stuart Andrew Christine Jardine (Edinburgh Wendy Chamberlain (Bridgwater and West West) (LD) Somerset) (Con) Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) Chris Elmore Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) Chris Elmore (Lab) Mark Logan (Bolton North Stuart Andrew Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North Stuart Andrew East) (Con) East Hampshire) (Con) Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford Bell Ribeiro-Addy Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Stuart Andrew and Eccles) (Lab) Outwood) (Con) Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Stuart Andrew Robert Jenrick (Newark) Stuart Andrew Upminster) (Con) (Con) Jack Lopresti (Filton and Stuart Andrew Dr Caroline Johnson Stuart Andrew Bradley Stoke) (Con) (Sleaford and North Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) Stuart Andrew Hykeham) (Con) (Con) Dame Diana Johnson Chris Elmore Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Kingston upon Hull North) Pavilion) (Green) (Lab) Kenny MacAskill (East Patrick Grady Fay Jones (Brecon and Stuart Andrew Lothian) (SNP) Radnorshire( (Con) Kerry McCarthy (Bristol Chris Elmore Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil Chris Elmore East) (Lab) and Rhymney) (Lab) Karl McCartney (Lincoln) Stuart Andrew Ruth Jones (Newport West) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Andy McDonald Chris Elmore Sarah Jones (Croydon Chris Elmore (Middlesbrough) (Lab) Central) (Lab) Stewart Malcolm McDonald Patrick Grady Mike Kane (Wythenshawe Chris Elmore (Glasgow South) (SNP) and Sale East) (Lab) Stuart C. McDonald Patrick Grady Daniel Kawczynski Stuart Andrew (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and (Shrewsbury and Atcham) Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) (Con) John McDonnell (Hayes and Bell Ribeiro-Addy Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stuart Andrew Harlington) (Lab) Melton) (Con) Mr Pat McFadden Chris Elmore Gillian Keegan (Chichester) Stuart Andrew (Wolverhampton South East) (Con) (Lab) Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Chris Elmore Conor McGinn (St Helens Chris Elmore Eccles South) (Lab) North) (Lab) Liz Kendall (Leicester West) Chris Elmore Alison McGovern (Wirral Chris Elmore (Lab) South) (Lab) Afzal Khan (Manchester, Chris Elmore Craig Mackinlay (South Stuart Andrew Gorton) (Lab) Thanet) (Con) Sir Greg Knight (East Stuart Andrew Catherine McKinnell Chris Elmore Yorkshire) (Con) (Newcastle upon Tyne North) Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) Stuart Andrew Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro Stuart Andrew (Con) and Falmouth (Con) Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab) Chris Elmore Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow Patrick Grady Mr David Lammy Chris Elmore North East) (SNP) (Tottenham) (Lab) Rachel Maclean (Redditch) Stuart Andrew John Lamont (Berwickshire, Stuart Andrew (Con) Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con) Jim McMahon (Oldham West Chris Elmore Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Mr William Wragg and Royton) (Lab) Derbyshire) (Con) Anna McMorrin (Cardiff Chris Elmore Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy North) (Lab) 881 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote10 NOVEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 882

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

John Mc Nally (Falkirk) Patrick Grady Mrs Sheryll Murray (South Stuart Andrew (SNP) East Cornwall) (Con) Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na Patrick Grady Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab) Chris Elmore h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Stuart Andrew Stephen McPartland Stuart Andrew Chislehurst) (Con) (Stevenage) (Con) Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Patrick Grady Khalid Mahmood Chris Elmore Renfrewshire North) (SNP) (Birmingham, Perry Barr) Lia Nici (Great Grimsby) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Shabana Mahmood Chris Elmore John Nicolson (Ochil and Patrick Grady (Birmingham, Ladywood) South Perthshire) (SNP) (Lab) Jesse Norman (Hereford and Stuart Andrew Alan Mak (Havant) (Con) Stuart Andrew South Herefordshire) (Con) Kit Malthouse (North West Stuart Andrew Hampshire) (Con) Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) Rebecca Harris (Con) Julie Marson (Hertford and Stuart Andrew Stortford) (Con) Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Patrick Grady Bute) (SNP) Rachael Maskell (York Chris Elmore Central) (Lab) Guy Opperman (Hexham) Stuart Andrew (Con) Mrs Theresa May Stuart Andrew (Maidenhead) (Con) Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith Chris Elmore and Thamesmead) (Lab) Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Kate Osamor (Edmonton) Rachel Hopkins Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab/Co-op) Johnny Mercer (Plymouth, Stuart Andrew Moor View) (Con) Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab) Bell Ribeiro-Addy Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Stuart Andrew Kirsten Oswald (East Patrick Grady Battle) (Con) Renfrewshire) (SNP) Stephen Metcalfe (South Stuart Andrew Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry Chris Elmore Basildon and East Thurrock) North West) (Lab) (Con) Sarah Owen (Luton North) Chris Elmore Edward Miliband (Doncaster Chris Elmore (Lab) North) (Lab) Mr Owen Paterson (North Stuart Andrew Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) Stuart Andrew Shropshire) (Con) (Con) Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley Chris Elmore Navendu Mishra (Stockport) Kim Johnson East) (Lab) (Lab) Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Stuart Andrew Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Stuart Andrew Hempstead) (Con) Coldfield) (Con) John Penrose (Weston-super- Stuart Andrew Carol Monaghan (Glasgow Patrick Grady Mare) (Con) North West) Andrew Percy (Brigg and Stuart Andrew Layla Moran (Oxford West Wendy Chamberlain Goole) (Con) and Abingdon) (LD) Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Chris Elmore Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth Mark Spencer Yardley) (Lab) North) (Con) Chris Philp (Croydon South) Stuart Andrew Stephen Morgan (Portsmouth Chris Elmore (Con) South) (Lab) Dr Dan Poulter (Central Stuart Andrew Anne Marie Morris (Newton Stuart Andrew Suffolk and North Ipswich) Abbot) (Con) (Con) David Morris (Morecambe Stuart Andrew Rebecca Pow (Taunton Stuart Andrew and Lunesdale) (Con) Deane) (Con) Grahame Morris (Easington) Chris Elmore Lucy Powell (Manchester Chris Elmore (Lab) Central) (Lab/Co-op) Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) Stuart Andrew Victoria Prentis (Banbury) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Wendy Morton (Aldridge- Stuart Andrew Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) Stuart Andrew Brownhills) (Con) (Con) Holly Mumby-Croft Stuart Andrew Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Scunthorpe) (Con) Jeremy Quin (Horsham) Stuart Andrew David Mundell Stuart Andrew (Con) (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale Will Quince (Colchester) Stuart Andrew and Tweeddale) (Con) (Con) Ian Murray (Edinburgh Chris Elmore Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton Chris Elmore South) (Lab) South East) (Lab) James Murray (Ealing North) Chris Elmore Dominic Raab (Esher and Stuart Andrew (Lab/Co-op) Walton) (Con) 883 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote10 NOVEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 884

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Steve Reed (Croydon North) Chris Elmore Karin Smyth (Bristol South) Chris Elmore (Lab/Co-op) (Lab) Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab) Chris Elmore Amanda Solloway (Derby Stuart Andrew Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West Chris Elmore North) (Con) and Penge) (Lab) Alexander Stafford (Rother Stuart Andrew Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) Chris Elmore Valley) (Con) (Lab) Chris Stephens (Glasgow Patrick Grady Nicola Richards (West Stuart Andrew South West) (SNP) Bromwich East) (Con) Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) Stuart Andrew Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens Chris Elmore (Con) South and Whiston) (Lab) Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) Chris Elmore Mr Laurence Robertson Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Tewkesbury) (Con) Jane Stevenson Stuart Andrew Mary Robinson (Cheadle) Stuart Andrew (Wolverhampton North East) (Con) (Con) Matt Rodda (Reading East) Chris Elmore Jamie Stone (Caithness, Wendy Chamberlain (Lab) Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) Andrew Rosindell (Romford) Rebecca Harris (Con) Sir Gary Streeter (South West Stuart Andrew Devon) (Con) Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con) Stuart Andrew Wes Streeting (Ilford North) Chris Elmore Dean Russell (Watford) (Con) Stuart Andrew (Lab) Lloyd Russell-Moyle Chris Elmore Mel Stride (Central Devon) Stuart Andrew (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/ (Con) Co-op) Graham Stuart (Beverley and Stuart Andrew Gary Sambrook Stuart Andrew Holderness (Con) (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab) Julian Sturdy (York Outer) Stuart Andrew (Con) Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Ben Lake Meirionnydd) (PC) Zarah Sultana (Coventry Bell Ribeiro-Addy South) (Lab) Selaine Saxby (North Devon) Stuart Andrew (Con) Sam Tarry (Ilford South) Chris Elmore (Lab) Paul Scully (Sutton and Stuart Andrew Cheam) (Con) Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con) Stuart Andrew Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) Stuart Andrew Gareth Thomas (Harrow Chris Elmore (Con) West) (Lab/Co-op) Andrew Selous (South West Rebecca Harris Emily Thornberry (Islington Chris Elmore Bedfordshire) (Con) South and Finsbury) (Lab) Naz Shah (Bradford West) Chris Elmore Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) Grant Shapps (Welwyn Stuart Andrew Kelly Tolhurst (Rochester and Stuart Andrew Hatfield) (Con) Strood) (Con) Alok Sharma (Reading West) Stuart Andrew Justin Tomlinson (North Stuart Andrew (Con) Swindon) (Con) Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Chris Elmore Craig Tracey (North Stuart Andrew Southall) (Lab) Warwickshire) (Con) Mr Barry Sheerman Chris Elmore Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) Bell Ribeiro-Addy (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) (Lab) Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Stuart Andrew Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) Stuart Andrew Rothwell (Con) (Con) Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh Patrick Grady Elizabeth Truss (South West Stuart Andrew East) (SNP) Norfolk) (Con) Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Chris Elmore Karl Turner (Kingston upon Chris Elmore Kilburn) (Lab) Hull East) (Lab) Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) Stuart Andrew Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) Stuart Andrew (Con) (Con) Andy Slaughter Chris Elmore Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) Stuart Andrew (Hammersmith) (Lab) (Con) Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) Patrick Grady Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Stuart Andrew Chloe Smith (Norwich North) Stuart Andrew Preston North) (Con) David Warburton (Somerton Stuart Andrew Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con) Stuart Andrew and Frome) (Con) Jeff Smith (Manchester Chris Elmore Matt Warman (Boston and Stuart Andrew Withington) (Lab) Skegness) (Con) Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) Chris Elmore Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) Stuart Andrew (Lab) (Con) 885 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote10 NOVEMBER 2020 Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote 886

Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy Member eligible for proxy vote Nominated proxy

Claudia Webbe (Leicester Bell Ribeiro-Addy Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) Ben Lake East) (Ind) Gavin Williamson Stuart Andrew Catherine West (Hornsey and Chris Elmore (Montgomeryshire) (Con) Wood Green) (Lab) Munira Wilson (Twickenham) Wendy Chamberlain Helen Whately (Faversham Stuart Andrew (LD) and Mid Kent) (Con) Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Stuart Andrew Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) Rachel Hopkins Derbyshire) (Con) (Lab) Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Patrick Grady Pete Wishart (Perth and Patrick Grady Ayrshire) (SNP) North Perthshire) (SNP) Craig Whittaker (Calder Stuart Andrew Mike Wood (Dudley South) Stuart Andrew Valley) (Con) (Con) John Whittingdale (Malden) Stuart Andrew Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) Chris Elmore (Con) (Lab) Nadia Whittome (Nottingham Chris Elmore Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con) Stuart Andrew East) (Lab) Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford- Stuart Andrew Craig Williams Stuart Andrew on-Avon) (Con) (Montgomeryshire) (Con) 299WH 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 300WH

Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Westminster Hall Unbelievable.

Tuesday 10 November 2020 Jim Shannon: I was having Chinese takeaway five nights a week with two bottles of Coke. It was not the way to live life, but I had a very sweet tooth. [PHILIP DAVIES in the Chair] Until about a year before I realised I was a diabetic I did not know the symptoms. My vision was a wee bit Obesity: Covid-19 blurred and I was drinking lots of liquids—two signs that should tell you right away that something is not 9.30 am right. I took a drastic decision to reduce weight and lost some 4 stone, which I have managed to keep off. Philip Davies (in the Chair): I remind Members of the changes to normal practice to support the new call We need to look at our diet and our lifestyle. We all list system and ensure that social distancing can be live under stress, and we all need a bit of stress because respected. Before they use them, Members should it keeps us sharp, but there is a point where we draw the sanitise their microphones using the cleaning materials line. I recall the day I went to the doctor and he told me, provided, and they should respect the one-way system “We are going to put you on a wee blood pressure around the room. tablet.” I said: “If that is what you think, doctor, I will do what you say.” He added: “When you start it, you Members may speak only from the horseshoe and if have to keep at it. You cannot take a blood pressure they are on the call list. Even if debates are under- tablet today and then not take it next week, because subscribed, Members cannot join the debate if they are your system will go askew.” not on the call list. They are not expected to remain for the winding-up speeches, but I would not discourage Obesity leads to high blood pressure and some types anyone from doing so. of cancer and is strongly associated with mental health and wellbeing, which is so important in the current crisis. There are strong links between the prevalence of 9.31 am obesity and social and economic deprivation. People Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I beg to move, living with obesity face extraordinary levels of stigma That this House has considered obesity and the covid-19 and abuse. We need to be careful and to be cognisant of outbreak. other people’s circumstances, because they might have a This issue has come to my attention so many times genetic imbalance, which I will speak about later. over the past few months—I am highly aware of it. I The outbreak of covid-19 makes the obesity epidemic applied for this debate in March, but because of the more urgent. It is deeply concerning that obesity is a covid-19 restrictions I was able only to introduce a risk factor for hospitalisation, admission to intensive petition. I am glad to have reached this pinnacle of care and death from covid-19. The facts are real. People opportunity to speak on the matter. with a body mass index of 35 to 40 are 40% more likely I thank colleagues who supported my application for to die from covid-19 than those of a healthy weight. In the debate and the Backbench Business Committee, people with a BMI of 40-plus, it rises to 90%. That which kindly found time for us to discuss this important places the UK population in a very vulnerable position. issue. I also thank Members for attending the debate In the latest report from the Intensive Care National and for emailing me to register their interest in speaking Audit and Research Centre, which audits intensive care in it. I look forward to hearing from the shadow units in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, almost spokespersons of the SNP and Labour party,and especially half—47%—of patients in critical care with covid-19 from our Minister, who is always courteous to everyone, since 1 September had a BMI of 30 or more. In other with the answers we hope to hear from her on this topic words, they were classified as obese. Those figures show of great importance. that almost half the people in critical care had a lifestyle For the first time in many a month this nation can that they needed to address. That figure compares with smile, following the news this morning that it is hoped a the 29% of the adult population in England who have a vaccine will be available. I do not want to pre-empt the BMI of 30 or more. People with obesity are much more final trials, but for once the nation smiles with hope that likely to be admitted to critical care with coronavirus. better days lie ahead, which must good news for us all. We also know that covid-19 has a greater impact Obesity is one of the country’sgreatest health challenges. among black, Asian and minority ethnic communities. The UK has, unfortunately, the highest obesity rates in Currently, 74% of black adults are either overweight or western Europe, and they are rising faster than those of living with obesity. That is the highest percentage of all any other developed nation. We cannot ignore that, ethnic groups. That is a fact—an observation—not a which is why we are debating it today and why the statement against any group, but we have to look to Minister is here to respond. We are a majority-overweight where the problems are and see how we can reach out to nation, with more than six in 10 UK adults being help, because we need to reach those groups. overweight or living with obesity. That has a significant It is encouraging to see the Government setting out effect on the nation’s health, on the NHS and on the the steps that they will take to support people to live quality of life of each and every one of us living with healthier lives and reduce obesity. Those steps will make the condition. a positive contribution to the environment we live in Obesity increases the risk of developing conditions and will encourage people to make healthier choices, such as type 2 diabetes, and I declare an interest as a helping to prevent obesity. I will also speak about other type 2 diabetic. I was once a 17 stone, overweight person. groups, because it is sometimes those in a certain financial 301WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 302WH

[Jim Shannon] There is a long-term process, which involves planning, housing, the workplace, the food supply, communities group who do not have the ability to buy the correct and even the culture of life in the places that we live in. foods and are driven by the moneys that they have It is about the groups of people we live with and the available. people we have everyday contact with. Earlier,I mentioned The Government now have to implement their proposals genetics, which is also an important factor in causing and fund them adequately. Then they need to measure obesity. Again, it is a fact of life that there are people their success and to review what more can be done. who may carry extra weight because of their genetics. Three childhood obesity strategies have been published Indeed, it is suggested that between 40% and 70% of since 2016, and the proposals have not yet been fully variance in body weight is due to genetic factors, with implemented. One reason we are here today is to see many different genes contributing to obesity. Again, I how those proposals can be implemented, and we need am sure the Government have done some research on a timescale. I know we are on the cusp of finding a that issue, working with the bodies that would have an vaccine, but we also need to address the issue of obesity interest and even an involvement in it. It might be in the nation as a whole. Perhaps covid-19 is an opportunity helpful to hear how those people who have a genetic to address it. We cannot afford a delay. It has to be an imbalance, for want of a better description, can address it. urgent priority for the Government and the Minister if Without going into the motivations and challenges we are to protect people from severe illness from covid-19. faced by people living with obesity, and particularly Furthermore, we need to address the structural drivers those living with severe obesity, it is clear that it is not of obesity. Inequality is a key element, as I mentioned a always easy for them to lose weight. Let us be honest: it little earlier. Obesity prevalence in children is strongly is not easy to lose weight. Some people say, “Well, what linked to socioeconomic deprivation. Families with lower do you do? Do you stop eating? Do you cut back on incomes are more likely to buy cheaper and unhealthier your eating?” But if someone enjoys their food—I enjoy food because what drives them—let us be honest—is my food, although in smaller quantities, I have to what is on offer this week and what budget is available say—and overeats, we have to address that issue as well. to buy the food that is on the shelf. We do not always Wewant to encourage people to improve their wellbeing check the labels. Is it high in calories, sugar and salt? and mental health and to have the willpower. There are Those are things that we probably should check, but we a lot of factors that need to be part of that process. I do not, because the driver is money. was therefore pleased that the Government strategy sets A report by the Food Foundation in 2018 found that out plans to work with the NHS to expand weight the poorest 10% of households need to spend 74% of management services. Again, perhaps the Minister will their income on food to meet its Eatwell guide costs. give us some idea of what those services will be. That is impossible for people on low incomes. When the Support for people to manage their weight can range Minister sums up, perhaps she will give us her thoughts from diet and exercise advice to specialist multidisciplinary on how we can address that issue directly. support, including on psychological and mental health I welcome the Prime Minister’s commitment to the aspects, and bariatric surgery. We have the National support for schoolchildren and school meals. It is good Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance on news; it is good to know that the four nations in this these treatment options, which sets out who should be great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern eligible for them, yet they are not universally commissioned, Ireland are united in taking action on that issue. Scotland which means that many patients cannot access support is doing it, Northern Ireland is doing it, Wales is doing even if they want to. Given the urgent need for people it and now England is doing it. That is good news, to reduce weight to protect themselves against covid-19, because by reaching out and offering those school meals we need to make these services more accessible by we will help to address some of the issues of deprivation increasing their availability and the information provided and how the mums and dads spend the money for food about them to patients and the public. in the shop. This is a way of doing that. We all know Over the years, I have had occasion to help constituents that school meals have a balance as well, so it is really who probably had a genetic imbalance and were severely important over the coming school breaks and other overweight. The only way forward for those people—men times that children have the opportunity to have them. and women—was to have bariatric surgery. On every In Northern Ireland, the Education Minister set aside occasion that I am aware of involving one of my £1.3 million to help to provide school meals over the constituents, bariatric surgery was successful. It helped coming period. them to achieve the weight loss that they needed and it The Government need to work more closely with the reduced their appetite. That made sure that their future food and drink industry as well, to make the healthy was going to be a healthy one. option the easiest option. However, while we need to We have strict acceptance criteria in the NHS for support healthier choices and behaviours, there is no obesity treatment that are not found with other conditions. point in seeking to make individuals’ behaviours healthier If a person has a BMI of 50, they must follow diet and if the environment in which they live is not suited to exercise advice and receive a multidisciplinary specialist healthy behaviour. It is okay to say these things, but report. These services are otherwise known as tier 2 and how do we make them happen? We need to look further tier 3 services. We are almost sick of hearing of tiers 1, 2 at the social factors that lead to obesity, and we need to and 3, but they are a fact of life for obese people before address them to make them more conducive to healthy they are even eligible for surgery. living. To give just two examples, eating more fruit and If a patient does not complete those courses, they vegetables and walking, which gives the opportunity to must start again, which can make some people lose be out and about, are among the things that we need to motivation. The lower levels of support are absolutely look at. necessary and effective for the appropriate patients, but 303WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 304WH it would be better to remove the loopholes and duplications. political prioritisation of the prevention and treatment That would allow more people to achieve the appropriate of obesity? I call on the Government to implement, support, even before additional resource is provided. evaluate and build on strategies to reduce obesity. Can Currently,the United Kingdom performs 5,000 bariatric the Minister tell us how have discussions on that been surgeries every year, which represents just 0.2% of eligible undertaken with the regional Administrations across patients. If more people had the opportunity to have the UK? I also call on the Government to work with that bariatric surgery, they would probably take it. Can local NHS organisations and local authorities to ensure the Minister indicate what intention there is to increase that services are available to our constituents who wish the opportunities for surgery? Welag behind our European to manage their weight. counterparts when it comes to surgery for obesity, despite In summary, given the range of secondary conditions it showing benefits in terms of cost, safety and the caused by obesity—this also applies to covid-19—would ability to reverse type 2 diabetes. it not be more prudent to address their underlying cause Many reports in the papers in the last few months before they occur? I always think that prevention, early have indicated how people can reverse their type 2 diagnosis and early steps to engage are without doubt diabetes and the implications of that. Talking as a the best way forward, and it would be helpful for the type 2 diabetic, I am ever mindful that if people do nation as a whole if those things were in place. I believe those things and reduce their weight, it helps, but it may that would help to reduce the impact of conditions such not always be the method whereby type 2 diabetes can as type 2 diabetes, heart disease, kidney disease, high be reversed. When I lost that weight, I found that my blood pressure, stroke, sleep apnoea, many types of sugar level was starting to rise again after four years, cancer and more. The problem with covid-19 is that and I moved on to tablets and medication, which controls although our focus should rightly be on covid-19, we it now. Ultimately, the control will be insulin, if the level must not forget about all the other, normal—if that is continues to go the wrong way. the right word—health problems that people have, because dealing with those is very important for our nation to The British Obesity and Metabolic Surgery Society move forward. has recommended that the number of surgeries should increase incrementally to 20,000 a year—a massive increase The NHS currently faces huge demands, but reducing from 5,000, but we believe it will heal some of the obesity now would significantly reduce demand on wider physical issues for the nation. This is a small proportion NHS services. It is a question of spending now to save of the total number of people with obesity, but they later, if we are looking at the financial end of it. It is not would also benefit the most. This debate is not about always fair to look at the financial end, but we cannot highlighting the issues, but about solutions. I always ignore it, because there is not an infinite budget available believe that we should look at solutions and try to be to do the things we want to do; we have to work within the “glass half-full” person rather than the “glass half- what our pocket indicates. And we have to do that while empty” person, because we have to be positive in our also protecting people who are vulnerable to coronavirus. approach. I commend the Minister and our Government for For people who require nutritional, exercise or their focus on obesity. I very much wish their new psychological advice, face-to-face services were closed obesity strategy success. How it will work across the during the first wave of the pandemic. I understand the four nations is important, but we need to do more, in reasons for that. While digital and remote services can both the short and long term, to prevent and treat provide help to vulnerable people during lockdown, obesity, and we must do so with adequate funding, these new ways of working cannot reach everyone. How which is crucial to enable the operations, strategies, do we reach out to all the people who need help? That is early detection and early diagnosis to be in place. vital as the country moves through future stages of the I hope that our future strategies to reduce obesity will pandemic. We hope we have turned the corner, but time continue to focus on how people can also be supported will tell in relation to the trialling for the new vaccine. to live healthily. When it comes to these things, we have Obesity continues to be a priority, and services should to be aware that it is not just one person who is living remain available. with the obesity; the family also live with it. Sometimes Lastly, in future, obesity services should not be cut as we forget about the impact on children, partners, wives, part of difficult funding decisions. I understand very husbands and so on. Whenever someone sits down for a well the conditions in the country and the responsibility meal, is their meal the same as what the rest of the that falls on the shoulders of the Health Ministers not family are having? It would be better if they were all just here in Westminster, but in Scotland, Wales and eating the same food, in terms of diet and content. I Northern Ireland. It is vital that the inequity in access believe that if we can achieve that, we will find a way to these services is corrected to ensure that people can forward. access support, no matter where they are in the country. May I thank in advance all right hon. and hon. What discussions has the Minister had with the regional Members for taking the time to come to this Chamber Administrations—with the Northern Ireland Assembly and participate in the debate? Like me, they are deeply and particularly with the Minister, Robin Swann, and concerned about how covid-19 is affecting those with with our colleagues in Scotland and Wales? If we have a obesity issues. Today is an opportunity to address this joint strategy, it will be an advantage for everyone. I issue, and I very much look forward to hearing other would like to see the person in Belfast having the same contributions; I am leaving plenty of time for everybody opportunities as the person in Cardiff, Edinburgh, London to speak. and across the whole of this great nation. I have three asks of the Minister, along with all the Philip Davies (in the Chair): It might be helpful if I other questions I have asked throughout my speech—I say that I intend to get to the Front Benchers no later apologise for that. Can she reassure us of the continued than 10.30 am. There are currently five Members on the 305WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 306WH

[Philip Davies (in the Chair)] large, 200-plus calorie glasses of wine. We have a culture that normalises these things on a day-to-day basis. It is Back Benches who want to speak, so if people could far too easy for all of us to consume more calories than take seven minutes or so each, that would be helpful to our sedentary lifestyles can withstand. give everyone a fair crack of the whip. While some may navigate this environment unscathed, 9.52 am making healthy choices has become increasingly difficult, even more so in poorer communities. Whether under Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con): It is a enormous stresses and strains from other aspects of life pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim or fighting to feed a family on a tight budget in limited Shannon). I congratulate him on initiating today’simportant time, the long-term health outcomes of what we eat and debate and on his thoughtful introductory comments. It drink may not always be our top concern. The measures is great to see the cross-party representation here today we need to implement are not about taking away choice, on this matter. but about the Government helping to rebalance the As a vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary group playing field in favour of healthier options, for the on obesity and a practising GP, I am only too aware of benefit of all. the significant health and financial implications of obesity. In July, the Government published a new strategy, In the course of this year, a realisation of the link “Tackling obesity: empowering adults and children to between obesity, its comorbidities and poor covid-19 live healthier lives”. This committed the Government to outcomes has sparked renewed interest in tackling Britain’s introducing a new campaign to encourage all those who obesity crisis. It is the case that 19.8% of critically ill are overweight to take action with evidence-based tools covid patients are morbidly obese; that is almost three and apps. We should not forget the huge impact of times the national average, which stands at 2.9%. And exercise and dietary advice; in my experience we often for those who are overweight or obese, the likelihood of have a very poor understanding of what is healthy. dying from this virus is 37% higher than average. There are of course numerous international league The strategy also committed the Government to expand tables that rank covid’s impact on countries, and many weight management services via the NHS; to consult people have suggested that the UK’s unenviable position over improving the traffic light system on food labelling; in those tables is due at least in part to the fact that the to legislate to require large, and potentially smaller, number of overweight or obese individuals in the UK restaurants, cafés, and takeaways to add calorie labelling stands as high as 67%. Of course, obesity is frequently to the food they sell; to consult over calorie labelling on an outcome of poor life chances, but it can also perpetuate alcohol; to legislate to end the promotion of HFSS them. The economic impact of obesity cripples some of foods through product placement, online and at the end our communities, and tackling it is therefore a matter of of supermarket aisles; to get rid of “buy one get one social justice. Obesity rates among the most deprived free” offers relating to unhealthy foods; and finally to 10% of the population are more than twice that for the ban the advertising of these same products online and least deprived 10%, and the gap in prevalence of obesity before 9 pm on television. between rich and poor is, tragically, still growing. These proposed measures follow on from apparent My constituency in many ways epitomises the national success through reformulation and the soft drinks industry picture. I can travel from one area, a coastal pocket of levy, which has reduced the levels of sugar consumed deprivation and the poorest ward in Wales, where obesity from soft drinks. I have been pleased to join many and poor health go hand in hand with economic inactivity others in pushing for such measures in my time on the and high premature death rates, to another area, just Health and Social Care Committee, particularly as part several miles away, where the average body mass index is of the childhood obesity strategy. Obesity in children at markedly lower and life expectancy and income levels reception age currently stands at 9.9%, reaching 21% in are significantly higher. To me, that inequality within a year 6. We know that children with obesity are more single constituency is unacceptable. Not only is reducing likely to develop complications and disability later in obesity levels vital as we seek to minimise the impact of life at a younger age, and there is a continuously worsening the pandemic; as an issue that I fear will become even picture year on year. more important in the aftermath, it should also be With this in mind, we need to consider going beyond considered a critical element of the Prime Minister’s the measures in the Government strategy. If we look at levelling up agenda. the world through the eyes of children, I feel we need to The harsh truth is that obesity is strongly associated attempt to tackle issues such as the location and quantity with a number of serious health conditions, including of fast food outlets on a cross-governmental basis. I many leading causes of death. It is also associated with would be pleased to hear the Minister’s perspective on poorer mental health outcomes and reduced quality of this and also when a timeline might emerge for life. Being overweight can exact a tough emotional toll, implementing the remainder of the Government’s obesity from bullying at school to the pain of lifelong judgmental strategy. Further, how will the Government ensure that attitudes and stigma. support is available across the country and includes The overall societal cost of obesity is estimated to be those with severe and complex obesity, for whom diet £27 billion a year, saddling the NHS with an annual bill and exercise alone are not sufficient? How and when of several billion. As a GP, any day’s work reinforces to will weight management services and bariatric surgery me that we live in a society where the freedom to make become more accessible? the right choices is severely constrained for some. In the immediate future, how do the Government Supermarkets are packed with temptingly priced, high-fat, intend to ensure that those living with obesity will be sugar and salt—HFSS—products. There are takeaways among the first to receive the covid-19 vaccines that we on every street corner, bountiful coffee shops serving have heard so much about in the last day or so? Looking syrup-laden flavoured drinks, and pubs and bars offering to the longer term, how do they intend to ensure that 307WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 308WH tackling health inequalities through the levelling up diabetes, with taxpayers’ money. Of those, 27%—more agenda will proceed despite the huge financial impact of than a quarter—were major amputations, or above the the pandemic? ankle. People are losing their feet because of a lifetime To conclude, the Prime Minister’s obesity strategy of bad diet. It is a bit grim to spell it out this early on a announcement in June created welcome attention and Tuesday morning, but we cannot tiptoe around the dialogue, which have been continued through an all-party issue. It really is that serious, and we need to do something parliamentary group inquiry, today’s debate and, it is about it. Yet a number of things are still going in the now likely, Government action. However, it is vital that wrong direction. we keep up the momentum, especially given that the I am a massive fan of the Food Foundation, which is covid-19 pandemic is still, sadly, very much with us. run by our wonderful former colleague Laura Sandys CBE. Its “Broken Plate 2020” food report shows that 10 am 14% of local authorities in the last 18 months saw a Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): I more than 5% increase in the number of fast food congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim takeaways. What were the directors of public health Shannon) on bringing this important debate before the doing in those 14% of local authorities, where things House. were clearly going in the wrong direction? Indeed, fast When the Prime Minister announced the improvements food takeaways in the local authority areas with the to the child obesity strategy a few weeks ago, he made highest number make up some 40% of all food outlets the point that the UK is unfortunately an outlier, in that in those areas. We really can do better than that. we are the most overweight nation in the whole of We need to hold the food industry to account, as the Europe, after Malta. Sometimes I think we do not quite Obesity Health Alliance has said, to meet its targets to realise how serious our national situation is or the reduce sugar and overall calories from everyday food. implications it has for people’s lives. To me, this has Yes, there has been some progress in children’s breakfast always been a social justice issue, because it significantly cereals—so thank you for that; well done—but not adversely affects the poorest people up and down our nearly enough progress on a huge range of food. country. I often quote the Dutch supermarket Marqt, which is I was struck by some information in the House of a private business looking to make a profit, but its Lords Select Committee on Food, Poverty, Health and whole raison d’être is to sell healthy, nutritious food; it the Environment report, “Hungry for change: fixing the is not part of its philosophy to sell food that will be bad failures in food”, which is a very good read, for any for its customers. If Marqt can do it, as a commercial Members who want to take the issue further. It points business in the Netherlands, come on Sainsbury’s; come out the reason we are the most overweight nation in on Tesco; come on Asda; come on Morrisons: step up Europe, after Malta. It is not difficult to see. On page 19 and show that you can do that too. Colour coding on the report states: front-of-pack labelling will be mandatory from next “In the UK, more than half (50.7%) all total dietary energy year. We can do more of that, which would make it from purchases came from highly processed foods”. easier for people to pick up the right, healthy things. That compares with Italy, where the figure is only I find it surprising that the quality and outcomes 13.4%, and Portugal, where it is only 10.2%. In other framework for our GPs does not include a specific words, our diet is five times worse than that of the incentive for them to do anything about children being Portuguese. All the figures are going in the wrong overweight or obese. That has to change. We pay our direction. Despite all the strategies, it continues to get GPs to do lots of very good things. If this is a national worse. The debate today needs to be a national wake-up priority—and I think everyone here thinks it should call on this issue. Well done to all the Members who are be—then for goodness’ sake let us align the financial here. I know the Minister gets it, and I know the incentives for GPs with what we are all trying to achieve Secretary of State gets it, but this is a combined national and deal with this issue early on, in the right way. effort. It is not just up to the Government. It is up to Overall, if we want a strapline for what we are trying food retailers, local authorities and schools—and, yes, to do, we want healthy food to be the easiest option for it is up to us as families, parents and individuals to do people, and it also needs to be affordable. Amazingly, in the right thing. Everyone needs to pitch in and do the Europe, healthier food is often cheaper than the less right thing. healthy food—this is according to the 2019 Food Further into the report, on page 20, I found it completely Foundation report. It does not have to be the case that shocking that 47% of primary schoolchildren’s dietary unhealthy food is cheapest; in other parts of Europe, it energy comes from products that are high in fat, sugar is not the case. We could align the financial incentives to and salt. That is nearly half, and it just is not good make it easy on people’s pockets, when money is tight, enough. It does not have to be like that. There is to put healthier things in their shopping baskets. We healthy, nutritious food that will help our children to also need to stop the stigma in this area. Some of our grow and develop as we all want them to. The figures press do not report this issue well, and that is not show that a fifth—one in five—of children born today helpful. Further, we need to ensure enough bariatric are on a trajectory to have type 2 diabetes by the time surgery to help people who have become severely overweight they are 65, with all the limiting implications that has or obese. for their lives and what they will be able to do, as the I have a few questions for the Minister. Can she give hon. Member for Strangford said. us an update on menu labelling? The Government say At the really gruesome end of the statistics is the that they will use the powers in the Food Safety Act 1990 average number of diabetes-related amputations over to lay the legislation before Parliament in 2020. There is the last three years, or from 2015-16 to 2017-18. The not much of 2020 left, so can the Minister tell us when NHS undertook 9,155 amputations because of type 2 that will happen? 309WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 310WH

[Andrew Selous] even deeper into that, that a lot of families did not even have the means to cook. Some of the children had never The consultation on the labelling of alcoholic drinks seen water boil. has not been published yet. When can we expect that? Those are the issues we face if we are talking about The consultation on promotions of products that are how to teach children early how to eat healthily, cook high in fat, sugar or salt has not been published yet. their own meals and know what is in their own food. When can we expect that? The long awaited 9 pm Some families are at that level of deprivation: children watershed has not been published yet. When can we have not learned to cook and have not seen their parents expect that? The “What Next?” proposals include eight cook. That is how deeply we need to get into the issue. additional policy proposals with limited information Weneed to understand that, without stigmatising families about who is responsible, so it would be good to have who live like that and without using language that some more detail on that. I would like to see schools shames people who are overweight. We must understand gripping this issue. They do a good job now in providing that, additionally, there are mental health problems and healthy and nutritious food, but they should have more other deeper underlying problems that go with this of an emphasis on teaching children about the importance issue. I urge the Minister to go deeply into that subject of healthy nutrition throughout their lives and about and recognise the social inequalities that lie at the how to cook well, which is also extremely important. bottom of it. All our healthcare professionals have a role. Every I want to talk about one particular aspect of the contact is supposed to matter, and this issue is supposed strategy that concerns me—calorie labelling in restaurants. to be mentioned in every contact between a healthcare There is limited evidence to suggest that that measure clinician and a patient. Dr Susan Jebb from Oxford has has a meaningful impact on tackling obesity. Worse done lots of good work on how to do that well. We can still, it could be harmful for those at risk of living with copy the great work that has been done in Amsterdam or recovering from an eating disorder; that is, of course, to bring down child obesity in particular. at the other end of this problem. There is an epidemic of There are even little things that we can do. Dr Jebb people suffering from eating disorders such as anorexia said that when we fill up at the petrol station, we should and bulimia and being underweight. Approximately sometimes pay at the pump because there is an array of 1.25 million people suffer from an eating disorder in the temptation when we pay in the shop. It seems a trivial UK. It is also true that many people living with an thing. Lots of us pay at the pump because of covid, so eating disorder also live with obesity.Treatment, therefore, perhaps that will help a bit. There are lots of things that is not as simple as consuming fewer calories. The eating we can do. This strategy is very urgent, and I look disorder charity Beat is one of many voices sharing forward to hearing from the Minister how we are going concerns about that aspect of the obesity strategy, and I to take it forward. ask the Minister to look carefully into that concern. Calorie counting is well recognised as an unhealthy behaviour: one sufferer described it as an “all-consuming 10.10 am obsession”that “took over my life”. Learning to disregard calorie counts is a large part of recovery from an eating Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): It is a pleasure to take disorder. Having the freedom to go to a restaurant with part in this debate with you in the Chair, Mr Davies, friends or family—something that many of us take for and I congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford granted—can be a very big step. (Jim Shannon) on introducing this important issue. It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. Members for Vale of I highlight a quote from one of Beat’s volunteers: Clwyd (Dr Davies) and for South West Bedfordshire “One of the greatest joys of recovery is being able to go to a (Andrew Selous). The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd restaurant for a meal with friends, and I enjoy going out now with my friends and family, but I really struggle to eat in public once I is a GP and the vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary have noticed the calories. Once I have seen the number, I can’t group on obesity, so he speaks with great authority on stop my brain telling me I can only have the food with the lowest this subject. amount of calories.” I believe that we have to focus on the social inequalities Research shows that individuals with anorexia or bulimia that are at the very bottom of this issue. Let us tackle it are more likely to order significantly fewer calories from that perspective. Obesity is, of course, a major when that information is provided. problem and can greatly increase a person’s risk of Eating disorders and obesity can in many ways be other health conditions.It is absolutely right that supporting part of our somewhat strange relationship with food. people towards a healthier weight is a Government People can go from obesity into bulimia—these things priority, and I fully support it. Any strategy aimed at are connected—and it is important that we recognise tackling obesity must recognise that it is a complex that. I was extremely grateful to the mental health condition with many underlying causes, including factors Minister for meeting me and representatives from Beat tied to socioeconomic issues. Managing weight is often a few weeks ago. I appreciate the time she spent listening not simply a matter of just eating less and exercising to our concerns about this element of the strategy, and I more. Unless that is recognised, this strategy will not be know she is committed to supporting those with an effective in the long term. eating disorder. As chair of the all-party parliamentary I want to say something about my experience as a group on eating disorders,I would welcome the opportunity councillor. Before I became a Member of Parliament, I to have another meeting with her and representatives of was a councillor in one of our most deprived councils, Beat to talk about that particular, very concerning and 10 years ago we tried to ensure that children learned aspect of the obesity strategy. how to eat healthily. If people cook their own food at Yes, we absolutely need to recognise that obesity is a least they know what is in it, so we tried to ensure that massive public health issue. We need to tackle it, and I people knew how to cook. We then recognised, going welcome the fact that the Government have made it a 311WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 312WH priority. But it is important that we make sure that the Wera Hobhouse: The hon. Lady is focusing on the strategy does not hit people with an eating disorder, number of takeaways in those communities. They are such as anorexia or bulimia, in an adverse way. there because people cannot cook for themselves. It is important that the Government look at how many 10.17 am families have the ability to cook for themselves. I recognise the temptation to order a takeaway, but it is the result of Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con): It is a the problem of people not being able to cook. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Strangford Jo Gideon: I thank the hon. Lady and absolutely (Jim Shannon) for having secured this incredibly important agree. There are other factors as well, including income, and timely debate. The contributions we have heard so housing, access to green space and exposure to junk far show how broad a subject this is, and how vital it is food advertising. that we discuss it in full. As a member of the all-party parliamentary group on obesity and chair of the all-party On the extra factors, I discussed the issues around parliamentary group on the national food strategy, I am exercise with Stephanie Moran, the executive principal very much aware that this issue should be top of our of the Esprit Multi Academy Trust, and visited the agenda as we come out of covid and look at public Grove Academy in Hanley to see first hand the challenges health. I join my hon. Friend the Member for South of organising outdoor exercise in a covid-safe way. This West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) in congratulating Victorian-built junior school, which was built for 100 people the Food Foundation on the excellent work it has been in a busy, dense residential area, has no green space and doing on this issue. an inadequate playground area for what are now up to 480 pupils to exercise daily. We must include the right to The global pandemic has made us all aware of our exercise as a vital element of tackling obesity as well as vulnerability. It has forced us to question how our looking at nutrition, and ensure that schools such as underlying health might impact our personal level of Grove Academy have access to green space. risk from the virus. Although current evidence does not show that excess weight increases a person’s chances of Recently, I spoke to consultants at the Royal Stoke contracting covid-19, it does indicate that obese people University Hospital, who shared their concerns about are far more likely to become seriously ill and to need the increasing number of children with type 2 diabetes intensive care. Over the past 12 months, we have seen a whom they had to refer as a consequence of poor diets dramatic shift in public attitudes towards measures for and unhealthy lifestyles. tackling obesity, as a result of many people seeing only The Government started to address the challenge of too clearly the health consequences and risk factors of poor diet in 2018 with the soft drinks industry levy, being overweight. Reducing the risk of serious illnesses which has led to a significant reduction in the sugar and the raised risk of suffering badly with covid-19 is content of drinks. This July, I wholeheartedly welcomed reason enough to prioritise tackling obesity; other reasons the Government’s Better Health campaign, which looked include the estimated cost of £6.1 billion to the NHS to address some of the issues through measures such as every year, and three times that cost to the economy a ban on the TV and online advertising of fatty foods through absences for sickness, as well as the increased before 9 pm, and an end to all “buy one get one free” risks associated with heart disease, type 2 diabetes and deals on unhealthy foods. certain types of cancer. However,successive Governments have adopted different Tackling obesity is central to our commitment to approaches to tackling obesity and, until now, they have levelling up. Statistics tell us that excess weight is more neglected to address the structural inequalities that are likely among those living in deprived areas, those with so strongly linked to levels of obesity. The national food disabilities, and those without qualifications. That means strategy and the Government’sobesity strategy are intended that areas such as Stoke-on-Trent Central, my own to be long-term approaches with comprehensive and constituency, have higher than average levels of obesity. holistic solutions. Levelling up is not just about the left-behind areas I was delighted with the announcement from the catching up with other parts of the country: it is about Department for Work and Pensions earlier this week. It tackling the entrenched economic and social inequalities confirmed that, as of April next year, the Government of our society—the social inequalities that hold people will increase the amount of financial support made and communities back right across the country. available to pregnant women or those with children In my own constituency of Stoke-on-Trent Central, a under the age of four, to help them buy fruit and number of socioeconomic inequalities are known to vegetables. The recommendation is to increase the rate have direct links to higher rates of obesity and poor of the Healthy Start payments from £3.10 to £4.25—just nutrition, which in turn can lead to malnutrition. A one of the core recommendations in part 1 of the recent analysis conducted by the Health Foundation national food strategy. It is a decisive step in the right charity found that people living in post-industrial towns direction, and I look forward to working with the and cities across the midlands, the north-east and parts Government, through my chairmanship of the all-party of Wales have unequal exposure to the potential causes parliamentary group on the national food strategy, to of obesity. That means that, on average, residents living see future recommendations implemented as part of in areas such as Stoke-on-Trent live much closer to fast their strategy for tackling obesity and malnutrition in food and junk food outlets compared with the rest of the UK. the UK—on average, they have 114 fast food outlets per I say this to the Minister: although obesity is perceived 100,000 people, compared with 77 per 100,000 in the as a health issue, for the reasons we have discussed south-east. That matters, because evidence shows that today, it very much also goes to the heart of levelling an individual’s ability to be active or eat healthily is up, so I believe that the solution can only be found in a strongly influenced by the circumstances in which they live. cross-departmental way. 313WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 314WH

[Jo Gideon] and give them ingredients, recipes and those basic cooking skills, which are so important. What really struck me As we slowly but surely emerge from this pandemic, it was that the pantry gives away fruit and veg—there is a is important we do everything in our power to capitalise free bag of fruit and veg that people can take. I asked, on the momentum and shifting public perception within “Why are people not taking it unless it is free?” I was our attitudes towards tackling adult and childhood told that it was because people did not know how to obesity. By addressing the structural, economic and cook with it. social inequalities that exist in parts of the UK and by The point is absolutely crucial. I was blessed, in that implementing the long-term and holistic solutions that my mother taught me how to cook reasonably well, but will emerge from a national food strategy, we will be in I know that I am lazy and do not have the time to cook the unique position to turn the tide on obesity once and properly from scratch. Lockdown enabled me to hone for all, and ensure that everyone has access to healthy some of my cooking skills, but we have to make sure food and opportunities to exercise in every community that those who are time-pressured—who in some cases across our country. are working two or three jobs—also have the ability to pick up that bag of vegetables and know they can cook 10.25 am something nutritious, quick and, mostly importantly, Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) tasty. (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, I turn to the comments from the hon. Member for Mr Davies, and I add my congratulations to the hon. Bath (Wera Hobhouse). I have a lot of sympathy with Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). what she said about calorie counting. Some of the We have had an important and interesting debate. I major chains such as Costa Coffee and McDonald’s would like to follow what my hon. Friend the Member have been advertising calorific values for years, yet the for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon) said by stating trajectory has been in the wrong direction: we are still that we need to look at the issue holistically. This is not getting fatter. In many instances, the battle has already just a health problem; it is also an education problem been lost the minute a person walks through the door. and a Department for Work and Pensions problem. Regardless of what the indication of calories on a menu I was particularly struck by the comments of the hon. is, people are in the wrong place to be making healthy Member for Strangford: we cannot use fat shaming and choices. stigma to force people to lose weight. Over the summer, It is important that we make labelling really we learned from the Prime Minister’s brave words about straightforward. There is less than two seconds between his own battle with covid, his own unwellness and how someone picking up something in a supermarket and that had been exacerbated by his weight. It might be putting it in their trolley. That is no time to be inspecting easy from Downing Street to recruit the services of a the calorific fat and salt levels, so traffic lights or personal trainer, but that is not open to everybody; we whatever mechanism makes things quick and easy have have to find routes to enable individuals to empower to be the way forward. People also have to have the themselves to take control of their own wellbeing—whether skills to cook the healthier choices. that be through exercise and diet, or through receiving We have seen a rush over the last few days: the the emotional and mental support they need. national media have been talking about how to lose a Weall know that weight is not just a physical issue—there stone before Christmas and how to drop a dress size. is an inextricable link between food and the way people Yet again, this is appearance-based, with little understanding feel about themselves. It is critically important that the that the issue is about people’s long-term wellbeing. I support services are there to dig into that and to find recognise that in some instances diets do not work and the best routes, because we all know it will be an people will engage in yo-yo dieting, but in other instances individual journey for each and every person. they do. We have to find a way to empower people to I have to admit that the Prime Minister inspired me make the lifestyle choices to bring about sustainable throughout lockdown; I made sure my “covid stone” long-term differences to their way of life. was in the right direction, but for many that was not the I think I have covered everything that I wanted to in a case. It has been demonstrated that people have put on very limited time, but I look forward to the Minister’s weight, and as we go into another lockdown there is coming up with some practical solutions as to how we real anxiety about the impact on people’s wellbeing. can make a real difference to the people in our constituencies I keep banging on about wellbeing—people think who need the most help, the most encouragement and that I have gone all airy-fairy and am about to break the most support. out the crystals and the twinkly music—but the reality is that mental, physical and emotional wellbeing are all 10.29 am linked. Just yesterday, I was at Focus Fitness in Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): I Southampton talking to the personal trainers, who are want to begin by thanking the hon. Member for Strangford all operating over Zoom in a covid-secure way. They (Jim Shannon) for his comprehensive exposition of the made the point that there has to be a wellbeing approach issue, setting out the scale of the challenges in tackling that reaches across all generations and socioeconomic obesity and how the Governments across the United groups, and that we must find routes to help the poorest Kingdom must do all they can to tackle obesity across in our society embrace these initiatives as well. the UK in a holistic way. I am glad to be able to Many people have mentioned cooking. During half-term, participate in this debate on obesity and covid-19 because I was at the community pantry based at Romsey it is very important, as many have said. There is huge Community School, where we were talking about the consensus across this Chamber today: we have a real Connect4Summer courses that were run over the summer public health challenge and we need to tackle it with all and the half-term courses. They bring families together the influence and tools that we have. 315WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 316WH

The pervasiveness of obesity in our society coupled or obesity is the most significant risk factor for developing with the health and economic consequences and the type 2 diabetes and can result in increased risk of other additional associated risk between obesity and covid-19 conditions, including cardiovascular disease and shows that supporting adults and children to be a hypertension. healthy weight is, must be and must continue to be a The annual cost in Scotland of treating conditions public health priority. The recent report from Public associated with being overweight and obese is estimated Health England provided evidence-based insights into to range from £363 million to £600 million. The total the relationship between excess weight and covid-19. annual cost to the economy in Scotland of people being We have heard today that the higher a person’s body overweight and obese, including labour market costs mass index, the more likely they are to test positive for such as lost productivity, is between £1 billion and covid-19, they are more likely they are to be admitted to £4.6 billion, and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent intensive care and, potentially, more likely to die a Central (Jo Gideon) set out the overall UK costs. Studies covid-related death. We heard from the hon. Member last year showed that 66% of adults in Scotland over the for Vale of Clwyd (Dr Davies) that if someone is obese, age of 16 were overweight, with 29% being obese. Men they are 37% higher than average more likely to die of are more likely to be affected, but obesity rates are covid-19. Those facts persist when studies are adjusted consistently higher in our most deprived communities. for confounding factors such as age, gender,socioeconomic The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd reminded us that status, ethnicity and comorbidities. tackling obesity must ultimately be about tackling social Over the years, since 2015 when I was first elected, I injustice—a sentiment that everyone in this Chamber have spoken in a number of debates on issues such as can accept. healthy eating, junk foods, healthy lifestyles and so on. What covid has exposed with crystal clarity, if it were One thing I always think is important, and it has been needed, and what it has exacerbated are the shocking noted today, is that we must always try hard not to health inequalities in our nation. I want to see a Scotland—a sound as if we are telling people off for the food they United Kingdom—in which people eat well, have a eat and stigmatising them for the food they give to their healthy weight and are physically active: who would not children. If we sound as if that is what we are doing, we want that? The Scottish Government have committed will not get our message across, as the hon. Member for to supporting a targeted approach to improving healthier Bath (Wera Hobhouse) said. The message we want to eating for those on low incomes, expanding and improving get across is that we understand that obesity is one of access to weight management services for those with or the most complex and biggest public health challenges at risk of type 2 diabetes, and extending access to of our time. As the hon. Member for South West weight management services to everyone living with Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) reminded us, the UK is obesity. They seek to build on and consolidate the the most obese country in Europe, with the exception of positive physical activity behaviour changes that we Malta. have seen during covid-19, such as walking, cycling and I believe this is a matter that has to be treated with a a range of measures that I do not have time to go into. bit of sensitivity. We know that it is easy to eat healthily I am keen to see the Minister today set out similar the better off you are financially. By way of illustration, actions across the UK and how Scotland and the rest of it costs £3 in Tesco for 250g of blueberries. Blueberries the UK can learn from each other and share good are very healthy; they are a superfood. However, in practice in doing more to tackle obesity. Fundamentally Iceland supermarket, we can buy 10 chicken burgers for and ultimately, however, the scourge of poverty is at the £2, which are not so healthy. If someone is on a budget, heart of tackling all inequalities. As in other ways, the as a parent, their priority is to feed their children and covid crisis has thrown inequalities in our society into keep them safe from hunger if at all possible. No one stark relief, and this debate has been worth while in has the right to tell those parents that their choices are underlining that. bad. The fact is they are doing the best they can with the When the covid crisis is behind us, as one day it will income they have. Using another example, in Tesco, be—the sooner the better—I hope that across the UK four oranges cost £1.50, but a multipack of 10 packets we all, citizens and Governments alike, do not forget the of crisps cost 99p. Although we know the blueberries lessons it has taught us about our society and the and oranges are the healthy choice and the burgers and terrible and ongoing impact of poverty on our communities. the crisps are not, if someone is on a very limited income, healthy choices are not always on the menu, as 10.37 am others have pointed out. Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op): It is a It is clear that the key to tackling obesity is tackling pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. poverty and inequality. We also know that the poorer I congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim people are, the poorer their health and lifestyle outcomes. Shannon) on introducing the debate and on the tone he I know that because I grew up in poverty. My parents set in doing so. The disparities between our nation and both died in their early 50s: the same age that I am now. similar nations show that something different is going Their poverty and early deaths are not coincidental—not on in the UK, and that should, we hope, act as a call to at all. It is the same story up and down our constituencies action for all of us in seeking to do something about it. wherever poverty thrives and preys on our constituents. The hon. Gentleman’sreferences to income and ethnicity Obesity does not just make people more prone to equalities were important and well made. He was a little covid and its serious consequences, although it certainly bashful in talking about the financial impact, but it is does that. Obesity prevents people from living fulfilled worth recalling that obesity is terrible for the individual and active lives. It is the second-biggest preventable and for the collective in its impact on our health service cause of cancer and is linked to around 2,200 cases of and economy. We have not only a moral but a vested cancer every year in Scotland. Living with extra weight interest in this. 317WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 318WH

[Alex Norris] strategy actually implemented, so we do not get bogged down in consultations for ever and things do not actually Colleagues made excellent contributions. The hon. happen. Rather than pushing the Minister on the substance Member for Vale of Clwyd (Dr Davies) picked on the of the strategy, I will push her on making it happen. disparities in the impact of covid and outcomes for There are arguments to broaden it out to a healthy-weight obese people, and in raising them the Prime Minister strategy and bring in greater emphasis on mental health, did a public service. The hon. Member for Strangford but at the moment I will take what we have. also mentioned social justice issues—a theme that the Yesterday, the Minister replied to my written hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew parliamentary question on this issue. It is clear that Selous) developed with characteristic force. We will all there is no new money for this and it is within the public take away the statistic on processed food as it brought envelope. I will talk about public health cuts shortly. into sharp relief the difference between the UK and The reality is that there have been diminished resources other countries. That should act as a wake-up call, and I for this over the past few years. The impact of covid-19 hope this will be a kick-off for parliamentary debates on public finances means that resources are likely to on it. diminish further. We should question whether we are I was glad that the hon. Member for Bath (Wera geared up to meet such a significant challenge. Hobhouse) referenced eating disorders. When we discuss One reason why it is expensive and hard to tackle obesity I prefer to refer to a range of healthy weight obesity centres on the complexity of the issue. It is interventions. The obesity strategy might be better as a about not just food, but childhood experiences, education, healthy weight strategy because it is only part of the income and mental health, as well as poverty, in which I picture. The hon. Lady made important points about have a direct interest as the representative of one of the how the different disorders are linked. poorest communities in the country. We know that in The phrase that I underlined from the speech of the communities such as mine, children are twice as likely hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon) to be obese as children who live in better-off places. was that the public mood has changed in recent months. Those children are no different. It is not because our It has, and we must take this opportunity, but a delicate burgers are any bigger or our sugary drinks any more balance must be struck. You, Mr Davies, have spoken sugary in Nottingham. There is nothing in the waters. publicly about the need not to moralise, and you and I Those environmental factors in our community push have had that conversation in the context of gambling. children and young people towards obesity. It is fine People switch off if we wag our finger and say that they and right to talk about personal choice, but we have to should be as virtuous as we are. We do not, however, do understand that there are structural, social and economic our people a service if we are blind to the challenges inequalities in our country that close down choices, that our environments and our lifestyles are creating for limit opportunities and push very difficult life outcomes us. We must find the balance between not wagging our on to our young people. fingers and being assertive enough to say when things This is a challenge for the Government. This are not working and are not right. The time when the Administration and previous Governments in the past public mood is changing is a good moment to do so. decade have not taken a long view on this—an investment I liked the emphasis that the right hon. Member for view, rather than a finances view. Short-term decision Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) making will cause greater problems. Public health cuts gave to wellbeing. I do not think that is too new age for are a shining example of that. The migration of public us to latch on to. It would be a really good outcome of health to local authorities is a good thing and one of the covid settlement, as people have made this extraordinary the few aspects of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 national sacrifice, to have public services, an economy that is likely to remain much longer. However, cuts to and a general environment that points towards wellbeing local authorities have meant a diminution or repurposing for all of us. We should all be interested in that. of those services. In my community, in 1920, poverty manifested itself I know from three years of leading in Nottingham on in malnutrition. We have all seen the pictures of rake-thin our public health grant that once we have paid for drug children. In 2020, it is the opposite. A third of our and alcohol services and sexual health services, which children leave school overweight or living with obesity. are demand-led services, there is not a lot left for In the adult population, two thirds of us are above a smoking cessation, which really works, or for early healthy weight and half of those are living with obesity. life-course interventions, which are spectacularly effective. That is a challenge of exceptional scale. It is a population- Unhealthy weight barely gets a look in. Across the level public health challenge. That behoves us to act. We country, we have seen the complete loss of any supported know that obesity is a risk factor for heart disease, cooking programmes or those sorts of things that pull type 2 diabetes, some cancers and covid-19, as hon. down the myth that cooking and eating healthily is hard Members have said. This is a good moment to tackle a or time-consuming. national crisis. That is thing that frustrates me. If I could get one My party has had interest in this matter for some message across to my neighbours, it would be that with time. Members may recall that our former deputy leader, a little bit of planning, it could be cheaper for them to Tom Watson, who is no longer of this parish, took on eat healthily and it could be better for them, too. We this issue personally during the last Parliament. His have lost that, because we have lost the support through journey was incredible and I know people have taken the public health grant. Covid makes everything harder great interest in it. He is a great ambassador. because all of our local authorities—I am talking about We are glad to see the obesity strategy. I am happy to England specifically; I apologise to Scottish colleagues—are say publicly, as I have said in the media, that we support looking at their finances. The “don’t worry, we’ll meet the Government in their efforts. We want to see the all your covid expenses”promise will not be honoured—that 319WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 320WH is clear by now—so there will be in-year cuts, and they to be. Although one is often pleased to be at the top of a will come from the places that they came from in the list, being at the top of the list or second to Malta on past, because they cannot come from children’s or adult’s the obesity statistics is nothing to be proud about. As social care, but from things that are seen as discretionary many hon. Members have outlined, the concomitant of That is bad for individuals and our communities, and it that results in links to poor outcomes from covid-19, is dreadful for all of us collectively because it will create whether it is the links to heart disease, diabetes, cancer much greater expense further down the line. or any one in a plethora of things. It is really about an I will reference briefly free school meals. When I individual’s ability to have a good quality of life for as wrote this speech at the weekend, events had not moved long as possible, because we know that obesity affects it on. Again, that was a prime example of understanding quite dramatically. the cost but not the value of something really significant. I thank all hon. Members for their considered and Research by the Nuffield Foundation found that the thoughtful contributions in what has become very much provision of free school meals leads to a fall in obesity a theme of the moment. Much of the work that has rates. I have gone public on this: I have no more interest been done—the House of Lords report and the national than you, Mr Davies, in moving to a point where the food strategy—has led to this debate and highlights Government feed children routinely. However, we need much of the work that needs to be done. The obesity to understand that it is partly a good thing. When we strategy is the pathway of the marathon that is needed have children at school, it is good because we educate to help change those behaviours, and to help drive us in them, but we can do many other good things around a direction where we see results and—as my right hon. health and exercise, and we should not miss those Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North opportunities. (Caroline Nokes) said—see them for a long time, because Before I finish I want to make a quick point about we want this work to produce results. Public Health England. I still think it is a very odd We have known for decades that living with obesity thing—one of the oddest things that has happened in reduces life expectancy and increases the chances of an exceptionally odd year—that during this pandemic disease, as I have said. The life of the hon. Member for the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care would Strangford, from being 17 stone and consuming Coke want to abolish Public Health England. It is an important and Chinese food, has obviously now been totally turned ring-holder body for our obesity efforts as a country. I around. However, as he said—indeed, it is the one thing understand the disease and infection control points, but that I want everyone to keep in mind—losing weight is the Secretary of State wants his organisation, so he will not easy. It can be depicted in a Sunday magazine as have it. To an extent, I will not contest that space but, something that can be achieved in four weeks, but for the remaining functions of Public Health England, actually it is incredibly hard. It is really, really hard to which are vital whether it is around obesity, smoking or sustain weight loss. Given the way that we talk about drugs and alcohol, I really hope the Minister will give us this issue, I was really grateful that the hon. Member for a sense of what the plan is. I have asked parliamentary Bath (Wera Hobhouse) and others spoke about the tone questions, so I know the consultation is coming soon, in which we talk about it, because it is really important. but we do not have long if it is to be up and running by April. I hope we have a soft landing. I will commit Over the past few months, evidence has consistently publicly to making no political capital out of it. We will shown that people who contract covid-19 who are all be relieved and will move on and never mention it overweight are—as my hon. Friend the Member for again. That would be in all of our interests. Vale of Clwyd (Dr Davies) spoke about, both from the perspective of a doctor and as vice-chair of the all-party The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire said parliamentary group on obesity—will have poorer the real theme to take away from this is a combined outcomes. Weknow that those outcomes get substantially national effort. I really like that. We can find a high level poorer with age and with weight. We know that the one of political consensus on this really easily. As the hon. thing we cannot do in life is change our age, but we can Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central said, there is a modify our weight. Weight is the one modifiable factor public interest. Industry is falling over itself at the that we have. moment to tell us about the good things that it is doing. That is great. We should welcome that and encourage it. We have also heard from many hon. Members that If we come together, resource it properly and see the the problem is more prevalent in black, Asian and long-term benefits of it, we can make a significant minority ethnic populations and in those living in deprived difference. It will make the country much healthier, areas, which was articulated by my hon. Friend the more robust in many ways, and we will all be better Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon). People for it. in those populations and in those areas are at greater risk of experiencing poorer health outcomes, not only 10.47 am from covid-19 but right across the health spectrum. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health And they have an elevated risk of being overweight or and Social Care (Jo Churchill): What a pleasure it is to suffering from obesity. serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. My first Across all Departments, we are actively tackling obesity, very pleasant duty is to thank the hon. Member for because many different factors are involved and we Strangford (Jim Shannon) for securing this debate. It need to make sure that we target them. Covid-19 has has been an hour and a half of people coming together. provided a laser focus on obesity, so it is crucial to We know that we have a problem and we have tried to support people in achieving a healthier weight, and to come up with solutions. As has come out from across help families, because we know that there is also a the Chamber, we know it has taken us some time to get common link between mothers and fathers who are here, and we know that it will take more than one overweight and their children’s weight; the likelihood is individual silver bullet to get to the place that we want that their children will also be overweight, or obese. 321WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Obesity: Covid-19 322WH

[Jo Churchill] removing them from the gondola end. Those restrictions will apply online and in store and we will publish that So, in July we published the new strategy, “Tackling result very shortly. obesity: empowering adults and children to live healthier Food eaten out of the home—on-the-go food—which lives”, which sets out the overarching campaign to was mentioned by several Members, forms a growing reduce obesity, including taking measures to get the part of people’s diet. That is part of the bigger narrative nation fitter and healthier. I will look at some of those and bigger conversation about children’s learning to messages. This process is about building blocks and not prepare food, eating as a family and all those other about hectoring. As we all know, it is about helping things that, if we had had more time, we would probably people and having holistic policies. We know the statistics have discussed at more length. Weare introducing legislation and we have heard them several times, so I will not to require large out-of-home sector businesses with repeat them. But it is right that our policy focuses on 250 or more employees to calorie label the food they improving diet and reducing obesity. sell. We will also encourage voluntary calorie labelling Since we published the first chapter of the plan in by smaller businesses, and we will look at the scope. 2016, we have seen important steps forward, and we Many people mentioned weight management services, have spoken to other nations. Just recently, I spoke to and the hon. Member for Strangford asked how we can Joe FitzPatrick about calorie labelling on alcohol. I evaluate them. We can see success through the child have also reached out to the other devolved nations, measurement programme, but we are very much aware because, as has been said, it is important that we have that our bariatric referrals are much lower than across such conversations. Europe, as is people’s ability to access weight loss We have also looked internationally. My hon. Friend programmes. There is some brilliant work going on in the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew pockets and in some of the more deprived areas across Selous) mentioned Amsterdam and the good work being the country, and there are great cook schemes. There is done there, but I also had a very insightful conversation a brilliant weight loss project in Sheffield, and I met the with Dr Jebb on Singapore, because it has done a great people who run it. There is also a “dads and lads” deal of work on how best to incentivise people on the project, helping dads and lads to cook, because it is not journey to weight loss. always a woman who needs to prepare the meal—says a The soft drinks industry levy has been a huge success; mother of four, married to a man who does not cook the latest statistics show that the sugar content of soft very often. I will leave that there. drinks has dropped by 44%, which is a remarkable Our progress in work includes the NHS 12-week reduction. We know that sugar content in breakfast weight loss plan app, as we advertised in the summer, cereals, yoghurt and fromage frais has also dropped. helping people with different levels of intervention to However, we also know that calories have gone up in live better with obesity and hypertension and to get the out-of-home desserts. So, we have a really mixed picture support they need. We have accelerated the expansion and that it is likely that further measures will be needed. of the NHS diabetes prevention programme and we During the pandemic, we have seen people snacking hope to start to target some of the loss of limbs that my more, with more snacks being purchased, as well as a hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire reduction in levels of physical activity. The cessation of spoke about. That programme has already helped half a weight management and obesity services, as the NHS million people. The better health campaign aims to focused on covid-19, has not helped the situation, but reach millions of people who need to lose weight and we very much welcome local authorities’efforts in adapting encourage them in that behaviour change. The app also weight management, so that we have much greater provides direction to weight loss programmes at discounted results; there are many more remote and digital options prices from Slimming World and WW, formerly known available to us now. as Weight Watchers. I will now move on to consider the tangible things. I am aware that I have not had time to canter through First, the current advertising restrictions for products everything. To respond to the hon. Member for Bath, that are high in fat, salt or sugar are not protecting we are very aware that we ensure that messages are children. Weare seeing significant levels of such advertising attenuated in the right way for those people who are on TV and online, and we know that children are now struggling with eating disorders. They are a serious viewing much more of their content online. The advertised disease, and we work hard to ensure that the language diet in the UK does not reflect the healthy diet that so and policy efforts do not have an adverse effect; we do many hon. Members have spoken about. We have set impact assessments and put those on gov.uk. I also talk out in the strategy that we want to ban those adverts on to my colleague the Minister for Patient Safety, Mental television before 9 pm, but we want to go further. This is Health and Suicide Prevention, my hon. Friend the a very auspicious day for the hon. Member for Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries), who holds Strangford—it is almost as if he knew—as we launch the portfolio for mental health, so we are very much the six-week consultation restricting advertising online. attuned to ensuring that these policies are aligned. We have made it six weeks because we want it to be However, we know we have to do more. It is not our short and pithy and we want to get to a result, which is intention that anyone should be harmed in our raising what so many hon. Members are keen for us to do. awareness of obesity, but we do need to tackle this We are taking decisive action on promotions. We matter and we need to tackle it full-on. spend more money on buy one, get one free promotions My hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent in this country than any other European country. We Central and for Vale of Clwyd spoke about levelling up. know they influence preferences and we want to shift I am going to stop, although I have plenty more that I the balance to help shoppers. As a further strand, we wish to say. It is a combined national effort—I could will legislate to stop the promotion of high fat, salt and not have put it better—and I think we are all united in sugar products by volume and prominent location— knowing that we must work hard to meet it. 323WH Obesity: Covid-19 10 NOVEMBER 2020 324WH

10.59 am Probate Registry Service Jim Shannon: I thank all hon. Members for their contribution. I thank the shadow spokesperson and I 11.2 am thank the Minister in particular. I love the statement of a combined national effort; I think we have all captured John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): I beg to move, that as the message we want to send out. I very much That this House has considered the effectiveness of the Probate support what the Minister has said in relation to advertising Registry Service. and further reductions, the consultation programme It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, that is going on, preparing and cooking meals and child Mr Davies; I think it is the first time I have done so. I weight loss programmes. All those things are important, am grateful for the opportunity to have this debate on so I thank the Minister and I thank hon. Members. the effectiveness of the Probate Registry. I put on record Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)). my declaration of interest, in that I am a practising solicitor and I am familiar with this area of practice. 11 am This debate may appear rather niche—a minority Sitting suspended. interest in many respects—but probate and the administration of estates affect thousands of individuals and families up and down the country every year. This is not just something that is of interest to people such as myself, lawyers and accountants; as I say, it is of interest to families. We should also remember that there are around 500,000 deaths every year. I accept that not all estates will go to probate, but many of those 500,000 do, and therefore an awful lot of individuals and families get involved in the probate process and the administration of estates, whether directly themselves or through professionals such as lawyers and accountants. There has been, I think, a degree of frustration and anger over the process in the last couple of years, and I am fortunate that I am in a position to bring this issue to a debate. I have been a solicitor for 30 years. For 28 of those years, I found the Probate Registry to be an excellent service. That is why today, in many respects, is such a great disappointment to me and why this is a debate that I would prefer not to be having. Over those 28 years, the Probate Registry was always an efficient service. Probates were returned in a timely manner, consistent with the application timescale, and often within two to three weeks. Just as importantly, as practising lawyers, we had confidence that that would be the case—that the probates would be delivered in that timescale and therefore that we would be in a position to advise clients accordingly. If there was a problem, we always knew that it would be dealt with in a suitable timescale. If people had queries, the responses to those queries would always be dealt with constructively and efficiently by very helpful staff. Phone calls were answered and always in a reasonable timescale. I would like today to give great praise to the Newcastle upon Tyne district probate registry, which has provided an excellent service to my firm and many others in the north of England over many years. I suspect that if other professionals were standing here today, they would cite similar experiences with other district probate registries up and down the country.

Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I have had contacts from solicitors in my constituency and I think it is important to illustrate how the current situation affects families. One family I heard of made an application in June, but probate was not received until late September—a wait of almost four months. During that time, they were required to spend £30,000 on repairs in relation to the deceased’s estate, and of course that was at a time when they did not have the funds to be able to afford that. That is not an isolated case. What I have been told by solicitors in my constituency is that 325WH Probate Registry Service10 NOVEMBER 2020 Probate Registry Service 326WH

[Liz Saville Roberts] later.In relation to another two applications, one submitted on 16 June and one on 29 June, probate was received when they made applications directly to Cardiff probate only at the end of October. That is 17 weeks later. I registry, they found that far more effective; they were repeat that it was 17 weeks—over four months—before very satisfied with that service. I am sure that the hon. probate was granted. Gentleman will agree with me that an unsatisfactory As for the quality of probate, errors are now creeping service is not good enough and needs to be addressed. in in a way that would have been unimaginable previously. For example, a probate came back with the solicitor as John Stevenson: I am grateful for the right hon. the executor, rather than the person who should have Lady’s intervention. I agree with what she said and will been named on the probate. I accept that mistakes come to the point that she was making about the sale of happen, but traditionally, people always received a perfect properties and how it is very important to get probate. probate from the probate registry. That can cause serious It is interesting that she has heard from her local problems, because people then have to go back and get professionals and constituents about this very issue, the probate changed, which takes forever. Overall, we which does affect a lot of families up and down the are experiencing a poor level of service compared with country and certainly in her constituency. previously. If there was an alternative service, I am sure To go back to my point about the experience that I everyone would be using it by now. Sadly, we are not in had in those 28 years, I would have rated the probate that position; we have a monopoly service. service overall as first class—something that a public Such experiences are real. I am aware that other law service organisation should be proud of. Sadly, that is firms are having similar experiences, as indeed are not the case now. I say to the Minister that unfortunately, individuals. The obvious question is why there has been rightly or wrongly, you are the fourth Minister with such a deterioration. The Government must take some responsibility for this service whom I have been dealing responsibility for it. In their wisdom, they wanted to with in a little over two years. I am sure Members would put up the charges for probate applications by a significant agree that we could have a debate just about the movement, margin without giving it serious and sensible thought. the appointment, of Ministers and the timescales for In many respects, it was seen by many people as a tax which they are in office. That does not allow them rather than a payment for a service, because it was always to get control or get on top of the issues that aligned to the size of the estate rather than the service there are. that was being provided. Not surprisingly, that created I have therefore experienced frustration on this matter a surge in applications, and not unexpectedly, the service over the last two years. I do appreciate that this Minister was unable to respond adequately. Of course, the has inherited these issues, but at the end of the day it is Government then realised that the increase in charges still his responsibility to try to resolve them and improve was inappropriate and did not proceed with it. They the service. Sadly, two of his predecessors, in my view, created a problem unnecessarily; they could easily have did not really want to know, had not really grasped the continued with the service as it was. issue and in many respects may not have been that There was then rationalisation, which was an attempt interested. One at least had the honesty to confirm that to streamline the service by centralising it. It could be there were problems and that he and the Department argued that that was a sensible use of resources, but were trying to resolve them—I emphasise that that was clearly it has not worked out. As I have already mentioned, pre-covid. At that time, I was aware that pressure was the performance of the district probate registries has being applied by the Minister to try to improve the been very effective in the past. We are now centralising service and remove the backlog of applications. Sadly, the service, but it is not necessarily bringing about an that has not been achieved, and I emphasise that covid improvement. is not and should not be in any way an excuse, as the Finally, we have digitalisation. Again, there is not problems predate covid-19. necessarily anything wrong with that, but does it actually I can give real examples of what I am talking about. improve the service? The Minister has written to me A member of staff can spend 40 to 50 minutes on the suggesting that there has been an improvement, which telephone waiting for a response to a query—I emphasise is true to a certain extent: it has improved the service “40 to 50 minutes”. Even when an issue is raised, it is from a poor position to a better one, but it is still not as quite often not dealt with as quickly as it should be. As good as it once was. From 2 November, the Government for updates, I will read directly from the response that made it compulsory for professionals to use the digital we get on the website from the Probate Registry: service. The Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners suggested that the roll-out of digital aspects should be “Due to COVID-19, we are currently experiencing an increased demand on our service.” delayed, but that advice was ignored. Yesterday, my law firm found that the portal did not work—I could not I emphasise that actually it was pre-covid-19 that this make that evidence up. The Government should have was happening. The response continues: taken the advice of the Society of Trust and Estate “We will take longer to answer your call and to respond to your Practitioners. e-mail. Unfortunately,we cannot provide updates on case progression There are consequences to all this, such as family over the phone, e-mail and webchat.” distress, as the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd That is such a transformation from what used to happen, (Liz Saville Roberts) mentioned. The administration of when people could do such things. For any service, one an estate can be a stressful and difficult time for families, would expect to have the ability to get an update on the especially when they have just lost loved ones. Gaining progression of one’s case. access to funds quickly is important, as not all families Another example concerns an actual application for have money readily available, and they may need the probate, which was submitted on 22 June. Probate was probate to gain access to those funds. Then of course finally issued only on 10 September. That is 12 weeks there is the sale of property and other assets, which can 327WH Probate Registry Service10 NOVEMBER 2020 Probate Registry Service 328WH be lost or delayed. The sale or purchase of a property, Stevenson) for securing this debate on a topic that is as everybody knows, is already a very stressful experience. extremely important for all the reasons that he has It may not be front-page news, but we must remember eloquently laid out. When families suffer bereavement, that this affects thousands of people and their families they expect the state to support them and act quickly as up and down the country in a real and meaningful way. a matter of compassion. It is also a matter of practicality: As I said, I have raised the matter with the Minister’s as my hon. Friend said, there are often property matters predecessors, and I wrote to the Minister on 23 September. that need to be dealt with quickly, and delays with I received a letter from his Department dated 27 October, probate make them more difficult. which came by email on 5 November—nine days later. I I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friend because, suggest that he has a word with his Department about as he says, he has three decades’ experience of working how to communicate with a Member of Parliament in a in this area. Parliament is at its best when Members timely fashion. What is happening in the probate registry who have relevant direct experience—particularly current may be happening in the Minister’s Department as well. experience, as in his case—bring it to the House for In the letter, the Minister acknowledges that the the benefit of other Members and the whole country. I service has a problem. He mentions that the timescale am grateful to him for bringing his experience to the for digital cases has improved to between two and five House. weeks on average, which I accept is an improvement. I It is fair to say, as my hon. Friend laid out, that over point out, however, that in the past paper applications the past two years there has been a significant change in were dealt more quickly.I am encouraged by his indication the probate service, and there have been significant that additional resources are being allocated to reduce challenges and problems. This goes back to 2019, when the backlog, but why was that not done a year and a two things happened that somewhat upset the probate half or two years ago? We were aware that there was an applecart. The first was the very substantial fee increase, issue at that time. The Minister mentions the centralisation which was proposed and subsequently withdrawn. It of the system, but to a certain extent I question the caused a very substantial increase in the number of wisdom of that. I have also asked written questions. probate applications—I think they went up by 50%—as The evidence is this: in 2018, it took an average of people tried to get them in quickly ahead of what they three weeks for a probate to be granted; it is now seven feared would be a very large fee increase. A year ago, to eight weeks. In 2018, the probate registry had 156 staff; the Government made it clear that that very large it now has 215. In 2018, the cost of the service was increase was not going to happen. None the less, it had £5.7 million; it is now £7.5 million. Will the Minister a destabilising effect on the system when it was initially explain how a service that now employs more people announced. Secondly, a new computer system was and costs more is delivering a poorer service? Will he introduced a year and a half ago, and as is often the explain how introducing new technology, which is meant case, there were teething problems with it that led, to improve the service, has resulted in probates being particularly in 2019, to some very significant delays, issued in seven-plus weeks, rather than about three which my hon. Friend referred to. weeks under the old system? Does the Minister agree that that poor level of service is having an adverse effect By the beginning of 2020, before the onset of the on many individuals and families up and down the coronavirus, we had begun to recover and were offering country, and that that is unacceptable? better service. For example, in January and February Does the Minister accept that this is not a political this year, 44,113 grants were made, which was back to issue—far from it—but an administrative issue, and the 2018 level, before the various problems that I just that it is therefore incumbent on the Government to described. Come January and February this year, we ensure that the service is provided properly for the had got the probate system back to where it was before. people of this country? Will he confirm that he will seek Clearly, the coronavirus pandemic then struck and that the opinion of service users, either individuals or disrupted operations, particularly in March, April and professionals, to get their views on the service and what May. By July and August, we had got the output of the improvements and changes can be made? Will he let the probate service back up—for example, in July, the average House know how he and his Department intend to number of grants made each week, which is the key improve the performance of the probate registry, and number we look at, was 5,400, which was around 9% above will he let Members know what he has done and what the five-year average. In August, we got it up to 5,700 a the expected improvements and the timescale are? week, so we had gone up a little again to about 16% above the long-term five-year average. By the summer, therefore, I was going to ask the Minister to take the Rory the number of probate grants being issued had gone Stewart route—when he was Prisons Minister he made back up above the long-term average, which is an important a commitment that if the service had not improved in milestone to reach. Consequently, waiting times have the next 12 months, he would resign his office—but I been getting better—not as good as my hon. Friend the think that would be grossly unfair to the Minister, Member for Carlisle or I would like, but they have got because I appreciate that he has not been in office long. better. However, I ask him to make a commitment to the House that he will seek to improve the service significantly For digital cases, the average waiting time was generally and quickly, because it affects an far more people up between two and five weeks and for paper applications and down the country than we may think. it was between five and seven weeks. Paper applications take longer because they are harder to handle with 11.17 am social distancing. Solicitors must now make applications The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the online, but I strongly urge individuals making their own Home Department (Chris Philp): It is, as always, a great probate applications to use the online service because it pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. is much faster—a two-to-five-week turnaround time—and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John it is less error-prone, both by the user and by the 329WH Probate Registry Service10 NOVEMBER 2020 Probate Registry Service 330WH

[Chris Philp] Chris Philp: I believe that that is the case, but in the interest of absolute clarity it would be safest if I were to probate service on handling the application, because write to the right hon. Lady confirming it. I believe it is, but everybody is using a common format and typing in I will double check and write to her formally giving her material directly to the system. I strongly urge people to the confirmation that she has quite reasonably requested. use the online system. John Stevenson: I am grateful for the Minister’scomments I have heard some examples of much longer waiting about consulting other MPs and what he is trying to times than two to five weeks for digital or five to seven achieve for the probate registry. I just want to make a weeks for paper, and I am happy to look into the couple of points. First, I think people are quite happy specifics of those cases if the hon. Member would like to pay the probate registry fee if they get a good service. me to. I get a number of probate delay cases coming up I and many other people thought the increase proposed in correspondence from constituency MPs. In more in the past was like an increase in taxation, but if there than half of the cases, where there are long lead times of were an increase in the fee so that effectively the service 10 or 12 weeks, often there has been a mistake in could just wash its face, I do not think anybody would making the application in the first place, or there is an have an issue with that—certainly professionals would outstanding tax matter from Her Majesty’s Revenue not. The other thing I would say to the Minister is and Customs or something like that. Using the digital please listen to other bodies such as STEP. It suggested system reduces those errors, so I repeat my previous that there should have been a delay in the compulsory plea to use that where possible. digitalisation and it proved correct on that score. I think In the last year or two, the system has been in sometimes that Governments should listen in a positive transition to the new computer system and the new way to what is suggested to them. service centres that are supposed to provide a centre of excellence where things can be processed more quickly Chris Philp: My hon. Friend is right on the question and efficiently. We are midway through that transition. of the fee. The very large fee increase contemplated a Those have been established, but there is still some year or two ago went far beyond cost recovery. The activity going on in the local registries, and the process current fees, I believe, cover approximately two thirds, of completing the transition has been effectively paused or perhaps three quarters—probably more like two thirds due to the pandemic. My hon. Friend asked about —of the cost of running the service. I am grateful for resources and observed that the number of people his observation that practitioners, the public and employed in the probate service has gone up from 156 at parliamentarians would consider modest fee increases the end of 2018 to 215 in March this year, and the that cover the cost of the service, but no more, to be amount of money being spent has gone up from £5.7 million justifiable. to £7.5 million. He asked, quite reasonably, why there As for the digital service, after my hon. Friend made are issues if extra money is being spent. The answer is the point about the problems yesterday, I checked with that it is still a service in transition. My objective is to the Department about whether there was a general get through that transition as quickly as possible, first, digital service outage, and I was told that there was not, to realise the savings that were originally promised but so I would like to hear a bit more—perhaps when we have not yet been realised because the transition has not meet—about the digital issue that his firm experienced been completed, and secondly, to deliver the faster and yesterday, so that we can get to the bottom of exactly better service that was promised at the outset. I think what happened there. However, the reason we have we can all agree with those aims. made digital applications compulsory is that they are My hon. Friend asked for a commitment from me to faster—two to five weeks—which benefits the user. work tirelessly to make the necessary improvements, Also, the evidence we have gathered indicates that they and I am happy to give that categorical commitment are far less prone to error, both by the applicant, whether this morning. I am grateful to him for not pressing me that is an individual, a solicitor’s firm or an accountant, to make the Rory Stewart kamikaze pledge, but I do and by the probate service itself. Those are considerable commit to doing everything possible to make the benefits that flow from the use of the digital service, but improvements. In that spirit, I was going to suggest, if there are teething problems or if my hon. Friend’s before my hon. Friend called the debate, that we meet firm has experienced issues, I would definitely like to officials to go through some of the points that he has investigate the precise nature of those. raised and the work currently going on in the service. I hope that this morning I have acknowledged the My hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Craig problems that have certainly existed in the past. There Mackinlay) has a similar professional interest in this have been considerable improvements over the course area, as an accountant, so I suggest that he join us to go of this year, but there is more work to do to realise both through the issues in a little more detail. I would like to the savings that were promised by the centralisation hear from Members with particular professional expertise, process and the service improvements that were promised. to make sure that I as the Minister, and the Ministry of I will make achieving that a priority, but in doing so I Justice more generally, learn from the observations and will work with Members with expertise such as my hon. experience of Members such as my hon. Friend the Friend the Member for Carlisle, to make sure that we Member for Carlisle. deliver on the promise, and deliver to constituents and their families, at a time of bereavement, the service that Liz Saville Roberts: One concern that has been raised they are entitled to expect. with me relates to Welsh language wills. Will the Minister assure me that the new provision will be able to deal Question put and agreed to. appropriately,according to the Welsh Language Act 1993, with people’s right to present wills in the medium of 11.30 am Welsh, and that that will be dealt with effectively? Sitting suspended. 331WH 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 332WH

Support for SMEs: Covid-19 my own constituency. Again, that extension is welcome, but the key question from the CBI is about the exit strategy from 2 December. Most businesses are assuming [Sir Edward Leigh IN THE CHAIR] that we are going to go back into the tiered system, but the CBI and the industry are looking for further clarity 2.30 pm from Government regarding the road map out of this Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): I second national lockdown, so that businesses have ample beg to move, opportunity to prepare financially for what lies ahead. That this House has considered support for SMEs during the May I also raise the issue of the cut-off date for the covid-19 pandemic. furlough scheme? A local business in my constituency, It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Energie Fitness in Wallington, recently took on a new Sir Edward. At the request of the Petitions Committee, staff member. However, due to the cut-off date for the I would like to mention e-petition 305024, entitled furlough scheme,that person is not eligible to be furloughed, “Extend grants immediately to small businesses outside and sadly it now looks as if their job may be in jeopardy, of SBRR”, and e-petition 307959, entitled “Business so I would be grateful if the Government could take Rate Relief to be extended to all small businesses in another look at this issue. healthcare”. The job retention scheme has been backed up by a Small and medium-sized enterprises account for the series of loan schemes, with four in total. Overall, as overwhelming majority of businesses in the UK. In of 18 October, £62.7 billion worth of loans has been Carshalton and Wallington, for example, nearly 90% of approved across those four schemes. In my own businesses are microbusinesses, having only zero to nine constituency, for example, £13.42 million worth of loans employees, and SMEs make up 99.8% of all businesses has been approved under the business interruption loan in my constituency.According to the Federation of Small scheme, and £65 million worth has been approved under Businesses, at the start of 2020 there were 5.94 million the bounce back loan scheme. Again, the top-up and small businesses with zero to 49 employees, making up extension of those schemes are very welcome, but the 99.9% of the business population overall. They account industry still has some concerns that I would like to put for three fifths of employment, employing 16.8 million to Government. people and with an annual turnover of £2.3 trillion, Approximately 250,000 SMEs are believed to be locked which is 52% of the annual turnover of the UK private out of the bounce back loan scheme simply because sector. SMEs are the lifeblood of our local communities they do not bank with one of the 28 accredited lenders, and are at the very heart of those communities. Not according to estimates made by the all-party parliamentary only are our local retailers loved by the communities we group on fair business banking. The APPG chair, my represent, and not only do they provide jobs for local hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin people, but they are active and engaging members of Hollinrake), is here, so I will leave it to him to go into our local communities. more detail later. I appreciate that the Treasury has That, I think, is why the impact of coronavirus on been pushing back in recent weeks but, while stopping our SMEs has been so tragic and upsetting in many short of forcing banks to act differently, there really cases. We have been unable to visit our favourite local needs to be a greater focus on this issue, to ensure that retailers and have watched many of them wrestle with businesses do not get locked out of that potential the agonising choice of whether or not they have a financial support. future in our local communities at all. I think it demonstrates The two key areas I want to focus on are the self- the strength of feeling in those communities that while employed and grant funding. The first tranche of the preparing for this afternoon’s debate, my inbox has self-employed income support scheme closed on 13 July. been inundated—I am sure the same is true of the It received 2.7 million applications,and a total of £7.8 billion inboxes of many colleagues present—with briefings and has been claimed, including £11.6 million in Carshalton requests for meetings. and Wallington. The second tranche opened on 17 August I am incredibly grateful to industry representatives and, as of 18 October, 2.3 million claims had been for their help in preparing for this debate, and am glad made, worth a total of £5.9 billion, £13 million of which to see so many right hon. and hon. Members present to was claimed in Carshalton and Wallington. take part in it. It is fair to say that during the pandemic, Once again, I welcome and greatly appreciate the the Government have stepped up to provide an extensive Government extending that package, as well as the package of support to business, which is very welcome pledge of a £7.3 billion refresh package of support for and has helped to save millions of jobs that would the self-employed. However, there are still some real otherwise have been lost. However,there are still concerns, concerns.A study by the Centre for Economic Performance which I will address throughout my speech, and I am at the London School of Economics found that, in sure other hon. Members will have concerns as well. August—a month that saw the economy beginning to I am not going to go on for very long, because I know recover from the first lockdown—58% of the UK’s that the speaking list is quite full, but I would first like 5 million self-employed people had worked less than to turn to the coronavirus job retention scheme. The normal, and that one fifth of them anticipated quitting news that the Government have extended that scheme altogether, rising to 58% for those under the age of 25. to March is very welcome, and I extend my thanks to Apparently, 1 million people in the UK are planning to the Government for doing so. By midnight on 18 October, give up being self-employed after seeing their earnings approximately £41.5 billion had been claimed under decimated by the covid-19 pandemic. that scheme. There are 1.2 million employers who have That situation was highlighted just this morning by taken part in it, and nearly 10 million jobs have been the Federation of Small Businesses, which noted that furloughed since the scheme began, including 5,200 in 500,000 fewer people than last year—that figure was 333WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 334WH

[Elliot Colburn] the Grove, Cheam Park Café, as well as the Sutton business park in Hackbridge. They are all, by every released today—are now registered as self-employed. I stretch of the imagination, a small business and would am sure that we will hear many examples of what has fit that description if they had a property of their own, happened to the self-employed, especially freelancers but they were not eligible for the grants simply because and company directors, who have not been able to of their rental agreements.I therefore thank the Government access financial support. I should declare an interest at for making the move on that. this point as a participant in the all-party parliamentary There are lingering concerns, however, when it comes group on ExcludedUK. The group emerged back in to grants.This morning, the Federation of Small Businesses March, off the back of the first round of announcements expressed concerns that the grants were not at the same of financial support, and it argues that much more level as grants in March 2020. It has asked what the needs to be done to help the recently self-employed, difference is this time. Grants need to be greater than limited company directors and other groups that did the £3,000 put forward, because SMEs are struggling not benefit from the self-employment income support with cashflow and that would really help. In addition, scheme. That call was echoed by the FSB this morning, some businesses still fall outside the scope of the grants. so I ask the Government to look at the eligibility An example from my own constituency is the Windsor criteria, to ensure that the self-employed can once again Castle pub, which is having difficult conversations about be the engine of economic recovery when we come out the possibility of closing altogether. Its rateable value of lockdown. means that it is not eligible for financial support, and it I will also touch on business rates relief and grant has real concerns about coming out on the other side of funding. Again, I want to draw attention to the good the crisis. work that has been done. Retail, hospitality and leisure One of the e-petitions I mentioned focuses on the businesses in England are receiving a 100% business grants, and its prayer states that cash grants are rates holiday through the expanded retail relief. They “only for businesses in receipt of the Small Business Rates Relief will not pay business rates in 2021 and English local or Rural Relief, or for particular sectors.” authorities estimate that just over 373,000 business premises It continues: were eligible for the expanded relief as of 5 July this year, and that those businesses will receive around £10.7 billion “Small businesses are dying by the day and jobs are being lost. We need fast, easy access to cash grants for small businesses of relief. In my own constituency, 384 businesses have enabling them to survive COVID-19.” benefited from this support, at an estimated cost of £8.6 million. I hope, therefore, that the Government will review the scope and reach of each of these grants. However, there are still concerns. I will start with Given the time constraints, I will not go on to list wholesalers, such as Bestway Wholesale in my constituency. everything the Government have provided or the sector’s Wholesalers play a really vital role in the supply chain, concerns. I am sure we will hear a lot about those from especially in the hospitality sector, but they have lost other hon. Members present. I will just pick up on one between 80% and 90% of their trade with the closure of anomaly and ask the Minister to take a look at it—namely, the hospitality industry, and several are on the verge of the 5% VAT cut on admissions. I hope the Minister will collapse. These SMEs provide employment and skills, take a look at what seems to be a problem in the system: and are often the lifeblood of the local communities bowling alleys are not eligible for the 5% cut, even that they are part of. However, they are worried that though trampolining and mini-golf businesses are eligible, without urgent financial support in the form of business as are cinemas. That seems to be a strange anomaly in rate relief, there will be significant job losses up and the system. I would be grateful if the Minister could down the country. take a look at that. I welcome the Government’s commitment to the small I shall bring my remarks to a close and allow other business grants fund, the retail, hospitality and leisure Members to get in. I am grateful to the Government for grant fund, and the local authority discretionary grants the support they have provided to SMEs so far, but fund. In total, the first two of those funds were worth what businesses—and, indeed, all of us—need is a clear more than £12 billion, which was obviously expected to road map to reopening. The Government have been be distributed. As of 16 August, £11 billion had been clear, and I agree, that repeated lockdowns are not the paid out to nearly 900,000 business properties.I particularly answer. We had some good news about a potential thank the Government for the local authority discretionary vaccine yesterday, but we know that the roll-out will not grants fund. So far, grants of more than £239 million happen overnight and that going back to some semblance have been paid out to over 37,500 businesses.In Carshalton of normality is not going to happen any time soon. and Wallington, £6.6 million has been paid in small That is why, essentially, we need a plan for living with business grants, £4.4 million in retail, hospitality and the virus in the longer term—one that does not shut leisure grants, and £510,000 in local authority discretionary down huge swathes of our economy and put jobs at grants. further risk. On top of the financial support that I have I payparticular tribute to the Government for introducing already outlined and the need to address the sector’s the local authority discretionary grants. There were real concerns, I hope that we can get that road map and plan concerns earlier this year from businesses that fell outside for what operating a business will look like after we get the original grant scheme, particularly those that did out of this second lockdown. Uncertainty is one of the not pay business rates, predominantly due to a rental worst things for a business, and it can be just as damaging agreement—if they were a council tenant, for example—or to SMEs as poor cashflow. I hope that we can look at because they were in shared offices. Park cafes are an the SME support that the sector is calling for, get that example, including the Pavilion Café at Beddington road map to reopening, and give SMEs the confidence park, Mellows Pavilion Café at Mellows park, Sassis in to start planning for the future. 335WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 336WH

Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): We have quite a few nightwear for the winter months, turnover across the speakers, but if everybody keeps to under five minutes, year factors in an expectation that the business will do everybody can get in. Before speaking, can you look at well in the run-up to Christmas, especially given the the clock and make sure that you sit down within five year that these businesses have had. The hope that the minutes, however interesting your comments may be? best months of the year were still to come was keeping Thank you. lots of businesses going, but it will take a great deal to recover from the reality of missing out on trade at this key time. 2.43 pm I have spoken to lots of the market stall traders at the Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve impressive Halifax borough market, one of the last under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I start by paying indoor Victorian markets, and which first opened in tribute to the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington 1896. The council is staring into a massive black hole in (Elliot Colburn) and thank him for securing this important its finances for this year and did what it could to give debate. He made a series of important and detailed stallholders a rent break at the start of the crisis, but its points that will certainly be welcome in Westminster position is such that it needs to continue to charge rent, Hall. even when the footfall has been so low that takings As the hon. Gentleman has said, SMEs come in all for traders have been a fraction of what they would sorts of shapes and sizes. As we have already heard, normally be. they really are the powerhouses of industry in our Due to a variety of different business models and regional economies. Prior to becoming an MP, I worked employment practices within the market, not all of for an SME in export, trade and marketing, and it was those working in it have been able to access the various seeing things like Business Link—for anyone who different schemes. With this in mind, I wrote to the remembers that—axed in the so-called bonfire of the Government to ask the Secretary of State for the quangos back in 2011 that made me feel that, for all Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport if the talk of trading our way out of the recession, the the money already announced for the recovery of culture Government at the time did not really understand the and heritage could be used to support the borough type of support that SMEs truly valued. I was keen to market as a cultural destination and heritage building, bring those experiences with me to Parliament. We will as a means of supporting the businesses in it. I received need to trade our way out of this again, so what do we a response on 1 October from the Minister, saying that need to do to lay the groundwork to build back better? it could not but that he urges market business owners to I want to focus my remarks on those businesses in my continue exploring all options and monitor any existing constituency that have faced particular hardships over funding streams for further development. I would be the course of the crisis. Halifax has been in the equivalent grateful if the Minister could update us if there are any of tier 2 restrictions since July. We entered restrictions further funds my market stallholders could apply for, over three months ago, when our infection rate was in or, alternatively, what else we can do to support councils the 30s per 100,000. At one stage, we got it down to and the traders in our historic markets. around 14 or 15 per 100,000, but the restrictions were There is a great deal more I could add, but I will say not lifted before the second wave we are currently seeing in closing that Halifax had been punching well above its sweep across the country brought about another spike. weight as a northern Pennine town before the virus, and My SMEs have been living with restrictions far longer I know that we will get there again. We have a real than most, and it is really starting to take a toll. strength in depth across our SMEs, but we have faced a Children’s soft play centres have been among those perfect storm of restrictions. I also add that we were hardest hit, and I commend places such as the Mill recovering from the devastating floods of February Playcafé and Play Palace in Halifax for doing all they before we almost immediately had to turn to face the can to diversify and keep their doors open. However, virus, so we need to know that the Government are they are the types of leisure facilities, much like bowling responsive to and understanding of our almost unique alleys, which were the last to be able to reopen under the circumstances in Halifax. national restrictions. They then faced further tier 2 delays. When they finally got the go-ahead, they had additional restrictions on how many children could use 2.49 pm the play areas safely, meaning that takings have been Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con): It is a great down by around 80%, completely undermining their pleasure, as always, to serve under your delightful viability and business models. chairmanship, Sir Edward. I thank my hon. Friend the The packages of support for SMEs do not reflect Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) those differences and the fact that some businesses have for securing this important debate at a critical moment inevitably faced more hardship than others under the in our national story. It is also a great pleasure to follow restrictions. I am not here to suggest that it would be my near neighbour, the hon. Member for Halifax (Holly easy to tailor the support to the exact requirements, but Lynch). Her concern about having had to deal with I say to the Minister that it is necessary to take that Storm Ciara immediately prior to the pandemic is shared approach. My colleagues on the Labour Front Bench across west Yorkshire. have been asking for sector-specific support, so I hope In the 2019 general election campaign, the Conservative the Minister can reflect on soft play centres specifically party pledged to support SMEs across the country, in his response. whether that be seizing the opportunities that Brexit One recurring message from local businesses is that brings or helping support those who want to start their November and December are usually their best months. own company and realise their ambitions. Our manifesto Whether it is Saks salon or Carter’s market stall selling pledge could not have foreseen the pandemic we presently 337WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 338WH

[Imran Ahmad Khan] The situation for coach companies is deeply worrying. They are all SMEs, the majority family-run businesses. endure. However, the support that Her Majesty’s Last week, I met Alan Acklam from Acklams Coaches, Government continue to provide to SMEs is a continuation who spelt out the crisis the industry faces. These were of the policies and values Conservatives stand for. The all viable businesses, and they will be again, because numerous support schemes, whether the coronavirus after this pandemic people will want to go to concerts business interruption loan scheme, the coronavirus bounce and on holiday and start enjoying life again. But right back loan, retail hospitality and leisure grants or the now, tens of thousands of jobs are at stake as a result of furlough scheme, illustrate how great a priority the coach operators struggling to secure business as the protection of SMEs and the livelihoods of all those coronavirus pandemic goes on. They have seen a 90% drop who depend on their success is to this Government. in income for 2020. In 2019, there were 23 million visits Through these interventions, businesses and livelihoods made by coach, but that number has fallen to virtually have been shielded as much as possible from the economic nothing. fallout of covid-19. Between the announcement of the There has been no sector-specific support for coach schemes in March and August, 5,640 businesses in the companies, unlike bus, rail and light rail operators. For Wakefield district eligible for the business grant received some companies, the furlough scheme has been the only funds to support them—92% of all eligible businesses. source of support until this point. The industry experts As we entered the second set of national restrictions, estimate that four companies in 10 could go bust and Her Majesty’sGovernment once again introduced support 27,000 jobs could be lost if no support is made available. measures for businesses to shield them as best as possible. Furlough has helped, but many coaches have fixed These measures cannot protect every business, or every costs. One owner told me that job, but they are the right measures. The support that “fixed costs will kill the industry prior to the furlough ending”. SMEs have received during this national emergency has That is partly because coach companies have tried to do been unprecedented, yet necessary to protect our economy. the right thing. Many have upgraded their fleets to A thriving economy requires a diverse private sector improve air quality and reduce emissions, and have that is not shackled by regulation or high taxes. The taken out finance agreements to do that. Now the Conservative party recognises the vitality of a dynamic coaches sit idle and the repayments are due. free market, as well as a free economy, as the only route One coach operator told me that the cost per day for to economic growth and prosperity for all who live his coaches was £220. The coaches are now in negative within it. While these measures intervene in the economy equity because the market is flooded as businesses try to in a manner never seen before, and freedoms we cherish sell them. Some firms have been able to negotiate finance are curtailed to help to slow the spread of the virus, all payment holidays, but those are coming to an end and these actions are temporary. Even so, I know the Prime there is no sign of them being renewed. Only 20% of Minister and the Chancellor did not take any of these companies have been able to access coronavirus business decisions lightly or easily. Once we emerge from this interruption loans, and only 15% have been able to crisis, as we shall, it is vital that we shift our approach access small business support. from not only supporting SMEs where necessary, but unshackling them from the burdens of excessive regulations I was contacted by the owner of a family company in that limit their ability to operate effectively in the market. Dorset, who sent me a heartbreaking email about the problems he faces. I will quote from that, because it is better than anything I could say to the Minister. It says 2.52 pm that the company was Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) “told yesterday that we’ve been refused a CBIL loan from our own business bank (Lloyds Bank). We have a BBL and it was (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, going to be paid as part of the CBIL funds. We weren’t refused Sir Edward, and I congratulate the hon. Member for due to bad credit or not being a profitable company. It was Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) on securing because the banks don’t know when our industry will return to this important debate. I want to focus my remarks on any form of normality, they’re classing us as maximum risk for the coach industry, because its members feel badly let any form of lending. They can’t see the industry recovering over down. They tell me that that is partly because politicians the next 12 months, so won’t lend us any money. This is what I do not understand their industry. was told by them over the phone, and to be honest, I can’t believe it, I really can’t! I will start by quoting Kevin Mayne, from Maynes I felt very ill last night when my bank said they can’t see us Coaches, a family firm in Scotland, who says: returning soon. I didn’t realise they were experts in when things “We take children to school, grieving individuals to funerals, will return to some form of normality. Lloyds have also put a vulnerable people to disabled care facilities and turn up in high 5-year payment plan on the application. Rishi Sunak MP said he risk situations with shiny shoes to keep the nation moving. We are was extending payments up to 10 years to help us out. Lloyds said waiting at the station when the train stops and a rail replacement they hadn’t had that information and have to base it on 5 years. If is called upon, we are behind the NHS when the country stops it was for 10 years, the application may have gone through? moving and we are truly at the heart of national transport. The coach operators appreciate the furlough, but as I said The Coach Industry has always been there for the nation. before that is for the employees’ benefit, not for the business itself. When the train stops, you get a coach to take you where you need Furlough till March is great but the finance houses will not to go—whether it be a job interview, school play or a hospital extend holidays for the coach payments. Once January comes I appointment. When planes are grounded, it’s a coach and a driver will need to find over £12,000 a month for coach finance payments who are sent out to keep the people moving forward to their next with an income of absolutely nothing. My staff will be made destination. If everything in the city grinds to a halt and there redundant just after Christmas if funding does not arrive soon. needs to be an evacuation—we help. Trust me, I have been Coach operators are completely left on their own at the moment there personally.” and have been for 8 months. 339WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 340WH

I have £26,700 left to get me through to March. I’m applying to concerned that those small businesses will not survive. Iwoca loans, but the rates are higher than Lloyds and they are That is why, with regret, I have been unable to support saying it is only over 5 years and not 10 years. I have a wife, a the Government’sNovember restrictions. Those businesses 5-year-old and a 9-year-old to support. Come early next year, we had done their best and survived during the first lockdown, will be forced out of our home as the money will run out and the coach finance, like others, is secured against our family home. I but I was concerned they were going to really struggle haven’t been scared up until now, but I’m scared now.” to survive through the second. On a more optimistic The only business that coaches have is school transport, note, it is fantastic news that it looks as though the but most companies subsidise that with other jobs. At vaccine is within reach. Ultimately, what our small the moment, that service is being operated at a loss. The businesses need is the consumers who will drive business, industry needs help. I am grateful that the Chancellor and I hope this will bring optimism back to them. told me that the relevant Minister will meet me and Despite the restrictions, the bigger operatives such as representatives from the industry, but I will be even supermarkets are able to open up to all while smaller more grateful when the relevant Minister actually puts a businesses complain that they are unable to open, which date in the diary for that meeting. is regrettable. Having said that, we saw what happened Will the Minister please comment on what sector-specific in Wales when supermarkets tried to close certain aisles—it support coaches will get? Will the Department look at simply does not work. I want to focus instead on what classifying coach operators as either tourism or essential we can all do before Christmas, because all retail businesses travel so that they can access some of the grants that are are able to open online. I would like to see a national already available? What conversations are being had by campaign focused on November, a crucial month for the Department with the high street banks about their many small and medium-sized enterprises, so that we criteria for lending coronavirus interruption loans to buy local. Ultimately, we need to discourage people the industry? What support can the Government give from doing their Christmas shopping on Amazon. A the industry in securing extended finance payment holidays? good example is a bookshop in Battle, Rother Books. Have the Government considered retrospective low- We can buy its books through an online organisation emission-based grants for coach companies that have called Bookshop.org, whereby the local bookstore gets made a large investment in greener travel? Has any the profits that it would receive if someone had purchased consideration been given to topping up the costs of in the shop. I urge hon. Members to look at that for school transport during this time? their constituents. I am also really encouraged by my Alliance of Chambers in East Sussex, the chambers of Coaches are not just for displaying dubious political commerce, which is appealing for people to buy local, slogans during referendums and elections. Our country buy later and buy local online. I very much hope that needs them, and now the industry needs us. I look constituents will do that. Again, it is important that we forward to working with the Government to get it the all take the lead and show our residents and constituents support it needs. how they can find those businesses, and it is important that businesses innovate so that they are able to open 2.58 pm during what will be a difficult month. Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): It is What more can the Government do before Christmas? a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, I should align myself with some of the points made by Sir Edward, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn), When I visited businesses in my constituency over the who gave a fantastic opening speech and really set the summer, they could not have been clearer that without scene. So many of us agree with him. I pay tribute to the Government’s furlough and the discretionary grant the three Members who spoke before me, all from process, they would have gone under, so the Government various parts of Yorkshire—God’s own county. When really have stood by smaller businesses. I know that the we hear representatives from Yorkshire calling for more Government’s target of 33% of total procurement spend money to be spent, we know that we are indeed in each year by 2022 should be on SMEs. Given that we unusual times. have nationalised large parts of the economy, I challenge the Minister to see whether we can make that target I will focus on my concerns for small and medium-sized perhaps a little earlier. enterprises in my constituency, what we can do to urge our constituents and residents from across the country In the remaining 30 seconds, I want to point out three to support them before Christmas, and what the areas to the Government. On house building, we have Government can do to support them. It is fantastic to lost our small builders, but we will need them if we want see the Minister in his place. I worked with him before to build back. We lost them during the recession of my political fortunes changed. It is great that he is in 2008, and it is vital that we let small builders start post, which means we have continuity for him to help in building so that we get the homes we need. Secondly, the Treasury. wearing my Transport Committee Chair hat, travel My concerns with small business lie in the demographics agents have been particularly impacted, and I would of my constituency. We do not have large business in like to see a suspension of the package travel regulations Bexhill and Battle. Small businesses, as my hon. Friend so that insurers pay out for cancelled holidays, rather the Member for Carshalton and Wallington said, are than the travel agent. Weshould better align our regulations the lifeblood at the heart of our local communities. so that when airlines are still flying but passengers They certainly are in my Bexhill and Battle constituency. cannot realistically go to destinations, it is not the travel I also have one of the highest proportions of workers agents that pay out, but the airlines. on the living wage. Without the small businesses, we Lastly, on aviation—the Treasury has an interest would not have the jobs that are there, but even the jobs here—it is vital that we get people flying again. There that we do have are very low paid indeed. I am very are so many small and medium-sized enterprises that 341WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 342WH

[Huw Merriman] As the lockdown lifted over the summer, many of the small and medium-sized businesses that support the rely on aviation either indirectly or through the number vibrant cultural sector that I represent along the South of passengers who come through. Can we please find a Bank were not able to open their doors again. Those way to reduce the number of quarantine days so that businesses rely on tourism, but—guess what—the tourists there is an incentive to pay to have the test? People will have not come back, and they will not be coming back then end their quarantine early and start flying again. for a while. That is all I have to say, Sir Edward. I hope I have not How do we help those small businesses? The gone too far beyond your limit. I warmly welcome the Government’s one-size-fits-all approach is not helping motion and hope that the Government will continue to small and medium-sized businesses, which in places support small and medium-sized enterprises. such as Vauxhall are struggling. When we come out of lockdown, it is important that we do not look at any 3.4 pm more business closures, because without those businesses our communities will not thrive. Will the Minister therefore Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): It is a reassure my constituents that the Government will not pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward, try to implement their one-size-fits-all approach, but and I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Carshalton will listen to small and medium-sized businesses and and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) for calling this debate. provide tailored support so that all of them can get My constituency is home to more than 6,000 small back on their feet post-covid 19? and medium-sized businesses, ranging from independent shops around the ever-busy Clapham Common, including Several hon. Members rose— Minnow, Charlotte Cave and Clapham Books, to the row of street stalls and quirky businesses along the Sir Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. I call another Lower Marsh in Waterloo, including Greensmiths and Yorkshire Member, Mr Hollinrake. River Remedies, the numerous small pubs, cafes and restaurants along what many people refer to as Little Portugal—South Lambeth Road—and our vibrant lesbian, 3.8 pm gay, bisexual and transgender communities and venues, Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): And which draw so many people to Vauxhall from across the proudly so, Sir Edward. world, adding immeasurable culture to our part of south London. I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi). My hon. Friend the Member for The covid-19 pandemic has had a devastating impact Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) made a on all those businesses, and I have personally visited great speech and set the scene well for subsequent them over the past few months to see at first hand the speeches. impact on the ground and how they have been adapting and coping with what we call the new normal. I draw the attention of Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. This I met one constituent in March who planned to open is my third recession as a businessman—once under a a new grocery store after three years of sheer dedication, Conservative Government in 1992 and once under a hard work and money to get that off the ground. He Labour Government in 2008—but I have never seen the was devastated just before the national lockdown not to amount of support that we have received through this be able to open as planned. He now faces unaffordable recession. That support has been on a different scale rents and his costs have to be paid even though he is not altogether. Having said that, the recession has been on a receiving any income. different scale altogether too. Previously, there was no Another small business owner I met told me about job retention scheme, no business rate grant and no her 13-year-old daughter. She is worried about how the VAT discount. There were no free school meals in 2008, business will be kept running. If she is forced to self-isolate when millions of people lost their jobs. My business because one of her children catches the virus, the business alone had to make two thirds of our workforce redundant. will struggle and that will be the end of the business for It is among the hardest moments of your life when you her and her husband. have to do that to 130 people you worked with for a My constituent who runs the Prince of Wales in long time. I had very little support during that time, but Clapham Old Town highlighted the dire consequences the Government are now doing a tremendous job in for the hospitality sector, with many landlords continuing providing support for many SMEs. to demand rent for closed premises. He also highlighted The No.1 support that can be given to any business is the fact that a number of his staff come from EU to allow it to trade. The Government have tried to do nations—I am proud to boast that I represent the that throughout, despite the calls—on many occasions top-voting Remain constituency in the country—but from the Opposition—to close the economy, which there are real consequences here for small and medium-sized would have meant more businesses destroyed or a greater businesses. It is important that we get a firm deal so that burden on the taxpayer. I think the Government have these businesses can continue to thrive. done all they can to spread the benefits they have At the beginning of the lockdown in March, the provided evenly, but that is almost impossible—in fact, Government provided the coronavirus hospitality and it is impossible. If the economy is closed down, whatever leisure grant for properties with a rateable value of the Government throw at it, some businesses will lose £51,000, but Vauxhall is a central London constituency out, and some will be hit harder than others. The hon. with higher than average rateable values, so many of the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma businesses that I represent did not qualify for any Hardy) was absolutely right in her plea for the coach support, yet saw an immediate drop in footfall. sector, but it is so difficult for the Government to design 343WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 344WH a scheme that will suit all people equally. That is why we lockdown was to take effect. The uncertainty and the must try to keep the economy open at all costs; that is haste with which small businesses have been forced to what we should be doing. adjust is a cause of honest concern. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle In the last few months we have seen hundreds of (Huw Merriman) said, when large swathes of the economy companies going to the wall, tens of thousands of are shut down but some parts are left open, existing businesses shuttered, hundreds of thousands of redundancy trends are accelerated. Amazon, of course, is doing very notices handed out and millions more workers worried well through this recession and has eaten further into about whether they will still have a job in the future. the market share of SMEs. The fact that supermarkets None of this was inevitable.The failures of the Government are allowed to open again chips away at the market to act early on the circuit breaker means that the share of SMEs and accelerates long-term trends. As a economic pain of this lockdown will be greater, more result, some businesses that might have got through this far-reaching and indiscriminate. Now, with an estimated had it been done in a more progressive and gradual way 23,000-plus weekly infections, 800 of which are in Coventry, will be destroyed forever. we have abruptly found ourselves needing to go into a Although we have done a lot already, the Minister lockdown that was both foreseeable and preventable. will be familiar with the kind of asks I will make for the Once again, the Government have waited until the last future. There has been a fair bit of support—a lot, in possible minute to act, causing huge anxiety for the fact—in the form of business rates grants, the job people in my constituency and jobs to be lost across the retention scheme and the VAT discount. The hon. Member country. for Vauxhall said that her businesses have seen no Although it is good that the Government have extended support, but it is very rare that hospitality sector businesses the job retention scheme and furlough scheme—we have got no support. welcome that—and opened up a timeframe to apply for There has been a lot of grant support, but inevitably an emergency bounce back loan, more must be done to the Government have also had to say to businesses that adequately address the practical issues this pandemic they have to take some of it as a loan. Bounce back and lockdown present. loans have been a huge success, and what the Minister I fear that beyond those measures, the face and feel of has done now in terms of top-ups to those loans is our high streets are undergoing long-term change at a absolutely right, but he knows one of the problems we more rapid pace. When we leave lockdown for the have is with non-bank lenders and their customers. We second time, businesses will have to follow different have persuaded businesses to try new competition, new norms of operation, such as being open at reduced fintechs, for their bank accounts, but, having done that, capacity and altering their opening hours. The current those businesses are now locked out of the Bank of financial discussions do not do enough to answer the England’s term funding scheme, which provides the question: what is the future of the British high street? funding for bounce back loans. Customers of non-bank The people in my constituency want to know the future lenders such as Tide are locked out of the bounce back of Burnaby Road and Holbrook Lane, as well as other loan scheme. centres of local shopping and community life. What will There is a number of ways to solve this: give non-bank we tell my constituents in Coventry North West who lenders access to the term funding scheme—I know the have spent decades building family businesses and who Minister cannot do that himself—ask banks to lend to are unable to plan against the uncertainty and seemingly non-bank lenders, or ask banks to lend to the customers short-sighted post-lockdown guidance? Equally, what of non-bank lenders. The difficulty with the latter is will we tell the estimated 250,000 businesses without that customers then migrate back to the big banks; also, access to bounce back loans? they have a finite amount of money to lend, so it is I call on the Minister to look beyond the current flawed. We need a solution to this problem. What the measures and consider what the Government must do Treasury could do is provide funding directly to non-bank to preserve high street businesses in the face of rapidly lenders through the ENABLE guarantee scheme. That changing consumer culture. I recently spoke to the would solve the problem pretty much overnight, if the owner of The Loft dance studio in my constituency, Government were willing to do that. who meticulously followed the Government’ssocial distance I have used up the time allocated to me, so although I guidelines, spending hundreds of pounds to subsidise have a few more things to say I will leave it there. I hope the presence of safety measures such as hand sanitisers the Minister will respond to some of these points in his and signage, often at the expense of money earmarked reply to the debate. for his rent. This studio has been successful in providing a safe venue for students to train, but the owner feels that his business is suffering as a result of the latest 3.13 pm lockdown. Importantly, the students who relied on the Taiwo Owatemi (Coventry North West) (Lab): It is a dance studio as a mental health resource, a place where pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. they could engage in an activity from which they learned I thank the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington teambuilding and perseverance or gained a path to a (Elliot Colburn) for securing this important debate. career or higher education, are suffering as well. As we all know too well, the coronavirus pandemic My constituents have done everything asked of them, has hit our economy hard, and continues to do so. After but many of them fear that the Government have not the last lockdown, the Government economic guidelines done their part. Small businesses and their patrons were marked by last-minute scrambles to keep pace should not have to spend one single day more in lockdown with steadily worsening events. This pattern culminated than is -absolutely necessary. We cannot repeat the with last week’s announcement of the Government’s reactive, clumsy and confused approach to post-lockdown guidelines for small businesses mere days before the guidance. At the end of the day, those who suffer will be 345WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 346WH

[Taiwo Owatemi] Leaseholders are collecting their money, which in a sense goes directly into their pockets from the Government the hard-working, decent business people, who have in the form of grants. The support that those large spent years of their lives and their life savings on leasehold companies are getting almost seems like a way building up businesses that could go bust through no of getting around the state aid issue. Many of those fault of theirs. properties are held in offshore portfolios, so this is not We have not only an economic obligation but a moral about reinvesting in the local economy; the money goes obligation to guide and support the people behind from the Government into offshore bank accounts, and those businesses them. That is whyI call on the Government no benefit is brought to small businesses. Will the to develop and publicise a flexible, long-term recovery Minister look at that, because we see it not only in retail plan for small businesses on our high streets. Small and small businesses, but in the pub sector? A lot of businesses rely on the certainty of advance Government pubs are failing, yet the pub companies are drawing on guidelines to plan for their future. We must not let them that money. An inequality is being built into the system down. and taxpayers’ money is supporting it, so it is really important that the issue is addressed. Needless to say, another big issue in York—again, 3.17 pm driven by leaseholders—is high rateable value: many businesses missed out on support because their rateable Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): It is a value was above £51,000. A false economy is being built pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. up because leaseholders are pushing up their prices. We I congratulate the hon. Member for Carshalton and need to get on top of that issue as we come out of the Wallington (Elliot Colburn) on opening the debate so lockdown, to help secure those businesses after the well. I echo all the concerns hon. Members have brought pandemic. forward, particularly about those excluded from the Finally, another subject that is important to us in self-employed income support scheme. York is that although a lot of work has gone into I had a discussion with a Treasury Minister about the supporting the future growth of businesses, particularly exclusion of people who are sole directors of companies. for the green new deal and the BioYorkshire project, My understanding from his comments was that there is that work is currently being held up by the devolution a shortage of staff at HMRC to process information at deal. The Government support the deal, but it means Companies House, together with returns that can be waiting two and a half years before we can crack on produced to demonstrate that they are the sole shareholder. with upskilling 25,000 people and creating 4,000 new That case was brought back in the spring and several jobs in our city.In the light of our economic circumstances, months have gone by, so I do not understand why the and because of the support that the Government are Government have not put more staff into HMRC to giving to that project, will the Minister look at bringing address that problem. It would be transformative for all it forward so that we can get on with rebuilding our those people who have yet to receive support. I ask the economy while we are in crisis as opposed to waiting Minister to look at that. another two and a half years, which really does not make sense for the people of my city, or for the economy I also echo the concerns raised around bounce back and the economic benefit that that the project will loans and the fact that the underwriting is by the bring. Government, not the supply of resources for that. That is one reason why there are such challenges. I also want to raise a concern about the additional restriction grants. 3.23 pm City of York Council is looking at £25,000 a month. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): May I say what a That will not address the demand and we want to know pleasure it is to follow the hon. Member for York how that gap will be closed. Although York is doing Central (Rachael Maskell)? She is a friend and we have incredibly well at addressing the pandemic and getting been involved in many debates similar to this one. I on top of the virus, our economy is seriously struggling congratulate the hon. Member for Carshalton and and we urgently need help. The claimant count has Wallington (Elliot Colburn) on securing the debate, more than doubled in the city, the high street has been and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for highlighted as having had the most closures anywhere selecting it. in the country—55 retail outlets to date—and economically As we have heard, SMEs are truly the backbone of the future is looking even bleaker, so we need urgent our economy. During the initial lockdown, my office support. was inundated with more than 1,000 emails from SMEs One concern my constituents have is about the behaviour that were at a loss as to how to deal with that dreadful of leaseholders, particularly during the pandemic. For scenario. It was an incredibly difficult times to be an them, the property they hold is a capital investment and elected representative: I had never felt so much pressure a secure asset, and their interest is clearly in their wider as I did at that time, with the number of people who financialinvestmentportfoliosbornof highrentalpayments. came to see me and the real tragedies that they faced. The rentals are not necessarily the issue, but continuing The burden became quite onerous, but we were able to to demand high rental payments from small businesses help those people, and I thank goodness for that. My is having a huge effect, not least because, as other hon. promise to them then—as it is now—was that I would Members have mentioned, the high rateable value of do all that I could to get them information and press for property in York means that many businesses cannot the help that they needed. keep pace with average payments of £6,000 a month—some I could not attend Westminster Hall yesterday, when reach £1350,00 a year—despite Government support, the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington led so there is a significant shortfall in that provision. another debate—he is here almost as much as I am! I 347WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 348WH just want to let him know that I read Hansard—maybe I know that every Member here could do the same it is just me—and I read what he says. The hon. Gentleman thing for their businesses and the cost of the bed nights referred yesterday to the UK and that and food tabs. That is just one wedding venue and the “Northern Ireland operated socially distanced weddings since owners need help. They need assurance they can take June”.—[Official Report, Westminster Hall, 9 November 2020; bookings, and the fact that there is so much uncertainty Vol. 683, c. 272WH.] has led to people not feeling confident to rebook this I have that marked in Hansard. However, I want to refer year or in the year ahead. Venues and the local economy to one wedding venue in the short time I have, as one are losing income from that intricate web of service industry I feel needs to be focused on is that of a provision. I have wedding photographers whose business wedding. has been decimated, who cannot even do baby photos or other staples such as school photos. They need to get Within a wedding are so many SMEs. The industry people in, but no one is allowed in at present. They need mirrors exactly what is happening across the whole of help and they need it now. Those who provide evening the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern entertainment at weddings, whose job is their music and Ireland. Venues for weddings, entertainment providers, their art, are also finding that they have no hope for the the photographers, the make-up artists, the hairdressers, future. To lose a sector of those artists is worrying for horse-drawn carriage providers, bridal boutiques and our future as a nation. We have asked the question many evening-entertainment providers, from florists to the times, and we ask the Minister again to look at that. small online businesses that make party favours—all have been precluded from working. Many are self-employed Time has beaten me, but worse still, time is beating and none is looking optimistically at the future without the wedding industry. We need to think out a better way massive changes and help. of keeping people safe; this perpetual lockdown is not sustainable. I hope, as others have said, that when we As the Member for Strangford, I make this statement, look to the potential vaccine that the Health Minister which I know to be true although other Members may referred to this morning on the news—I watched it in disagree. I represent Strangford, probably one of the the hotel before I left this morning and it is good most beautiful areas in the whole of the UK. I shall although it is early days—we can look at safety measures outline why shortly. I know that you, Sir Edward, might that allow people to celebrate a wedding and even safely have a different opinion and others might as well, but allow people to gather after a funeral, which is another that is just by the way. The wedding industry and the issue. I attended a personal funeral this last week and I demand are strong in my constituency, and so too has understand what it means for the family not to be able been the adverse impact on the industry. to get together after a funeral, never mind a funeral Just a mile or two from my home—I live on the edge service when we can only have 35 people there as well. of Strangford Lough on a farm—is one of the most We have to offer support in the interim, but more beautiful venues you can imagine: the Orange Tree than that, we have to futureproof the industry. Part of House. Since it opened, it has been a virtual hub for our task, as Members and Ministers, is to learn from events, from weddings to birthdays to celebrations and what has happened and then look forward to the future, business events. It is owned by Jan Hollinger and Simon where we can make it better, and allow it to continue in Shaw—I name them because I am going to send them a any circumstance, in a safe and meaningful way. I am copy of Hansard—and they have built that place up. I sorry if I have gone over my time, Sir Edward. remember when it was just an old, abandoned building, and I have followed the whole process all the way. With just one look at this beautiful wee gem, we can see what 3.30pm the appeal is. Rain or shine, the views of the lough are incredible. However, one look today will show closed Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP): Sir Edward, it gates, closed doors and uncertainty. is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I echo the congratulations to the hon. Member for Carshalton As an SME, at one stage the owner had 37 staff on and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) for securing this debate, retention. When news of the new furlough scheme and also pay tribute to those petitioners who have was released, she contacted me to say she was unable to contributed towards the petitions included in this. pay the amounts that were the responsibility of the employer and was having to let 31 staff go—crippling After enduring so many months of hardship, it is news. I have watched this small business go from strength good to be able to rise having heard some positive news to strength, becoming not simply a viable but a thriving yesterday about the possibility of a breakthrough in business. To put that into perspective, let me highlight finding a vaccine. It is very early days, of course. If it the cancellations. I have the permission of the owner to meets its promises, it will still be a long time before the say this, Sir Edward, because I asked her beforehand impact gives a much-needed shot in the arm to the whether it would be okay. I want to give hon. Members beleaguered high streets around the country; to the the opportunity to hear what this means to one venue. shops, hotels, pubs, restaurants, warehouses, theatres, There were 130 bookings 115 of them in the diary stadiums, offices and businesses of all shapes and sizes already by March: 75 of them were cancelled. The across the UK. The crisis drags on,and battle-weary owner has kindly worked out the net loss to the local SMEs that would normally be driving our economy economy. The bed nights for the weddings, which are have been almost driven into the ground, but at least we the main staple of local Airbnbs, have disappeared. The have this glimmer of light in the winter gloom; that restaurants are not getting the usual visitors the days there may be a solution on the horizon that will keep before and after the weddings. The suppliers of flowers many of them from giving up the ghost altogether. and food and so on are getting no business. The effect of There are plenty of reasons for the Government not those cancellations from one business is £753,900 removed to give up on those businesses: the skilled and dedicated from the economy. SMEs will turbocharge the UK’s recovery if we can get 349WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 350WH

[Owen Thompson] the Scottish Government lack the big economic levers and borrowing powers that they need, and are making them through to the other side of the crisis. The first, the best of the resources at their disposal. crucial step was in extending the furlough scheme and I look forward to the day when we do not need to the self-employment income support scheme for five have this debate any more—when bad karaoke is back months—albeit belatedly. That was certainly welcome. in the pubs and live gatherings can get going again with It would have been helpful if that announcement had all the disparate jobs that they support, from lighting not been made so late in the day, as it might have technicians, musicians and planners to caterers and prevented some of the job losses that we have seen but, technology manufacturers. Events support about 1 million as with the Brexit negotiations, we have seen that the jobs. When able to run, they contribute billions of Government has a habit of sometimes leaving these pounds to the economy every year. Perhaps because things to last-minute chaos. those jobs do not fit neatly into the existing characterisations, Prior to the announcement, the devolved Governments, the sector has missed out on so much targeted support and the local administrations in the north of England, so far. had been crying out for the expansion of the levels of The #WeMakeEvents campaign has very helpfully support that were so desperately needed to protect jobs. suggested sector-specific measures to help the industry I still cannot understand why those calls fell on deaf survive, such as a government-backed insurance scheme ears, yet, when a lockdown was announced for the to ensure organisers can recover costs if lockdowns south of England, a far more generous 80% furlough happen. During a previous debate I led on this topic, package was suddenly made available again. I am sure the Minister agreed that the UK Government were that that was just a coincidence—I am absolutely sure willing to engage with the campaign, although no meeting of that—but while it is definitely better late than never, has yet been arranged. I invite the Minister again today the Scottish Government’s public health policies should to see what can be done to move that forward. not have to be hindered in this way. While furlough extension is essential, the second wave will hit far harder We also need to look at the replacements for the than the first, and it is only a part of the solution. Many coronavirus business interruption loan scheme. We had SMEs are so heavily reliant on this golden quarter to a lengthy debate on that in the main Chamber last balance the books that lockdown is crippling cash flow, week. To avoid going over old ground again, I will not and that will be felt well into next year. repeat too many of those points, but I think it is very clear that Members from all sides of the Chamber The need for tough pandemic restrictions is particularly recognise the need to look in a level of detail at a devastating to the hospitality sector and its employers, number of issues associated with those loans. From my as was so well outlined by the hon. Member for Strangford point of view, we would far rather see these as grants. (Jim Shannon). It is necessary, but that does not make it Again, I suggest it would be far more sensible to write any easier for those businesses. Prior to the second off these debts for struggling SMEs and look at more lockdown, Q2 GDP data showed a 20% decline in the innovative grant and equity-based solutions to stimulate UK economy; for the hospitality sector, this was around the economy as we go forward. 85%. In September, only 7% of businesses surveyed by UKHospitality were feeling in any way confident about Kevin Hollinrake: We agree on a lot, but we differ on the next 12 months. this point. How would it be fair to write off that kind of Many SMEs have had very few good trading days debt and make grants when some businesses have not over the last eight months. In events, some businesses taken a loan and other businesses will pay back those are operating at only 5% of turnover or less. SMEs loans? How fair would it be to those businesses and to have already used up their rainy-day resources and have the taxpayers who have funded those loans? built up debt from the Government-backed loans, where they could get one—and we have already heard some of Owen Thompson: I hear the point that the hon. the issues around that this afternoon. They are now Gentleman makes. We had an exchange on this on worried about how to pay non-staff costs, and how Thursday. We are in a situation where the current much of the big-ticket grants announcements will actually system is not fair for millions of people who get no reach them once they are spread out across all other support whatever. We need to do whatever we can to businesses. make sure that our high streets are not utterly decimated It was good to see the live events sector get a specific when we get to the end of this pandemic. I suggest that mention in the £1.1 billion additional support package is one measure that could be taken that would absolutely allocated to councils in England to support businesses, guarantee the future of those businesses. and the Barnett consequentials associated with that for I turn to consider those running small businesses devolved Governments. However, it is a widely-shared from their homes—swimming instructors or travel agents pot, allocated at £20 per head, and the devil will be in whose activities are not currently available to the extent the detail of its distribution. that they were before, or those who rely on large gatherings. I also welcome the £2.38 billion provided by the Here, I draw attention to the Showmen’s Guild, which Scottish Government to support businesses, including has effectively been closed down for a year, but because the £48 million fund for employers and businesses impacted their members operate from home, they have not qualified by recent restrictions; a monthly grant support coming for any support so far. Vast numbers of individuals in back, with the ongoing five-level tier framework; and households and businesses have seen their income falling the £11 million contingency fund recently announced perhaps by 100% in some situations. They are at risk of for businesses, including nightclubs and soft play areas, losing their homes and cannot get the support they which had missed out on other supports. I realise that need. Why are the Government not wrapping their this will not make up for lost revenue at this time, but arms around them? Why is their plight still ignored? It 351WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 352WH is an unedifying consequence of this virus that the between survival and going under—there is no doubt privileged members of our Government can determine about that. They have provided vital revenue to businesses which businesses are viable, what cultural events are when there has been none from normal trading, because important to save, and who gets support through a there has simply been no possibility of conducting crisis or who should simply retrain in cyber. business. This is an emergency, and we need to make sure that a Of course the interventions are costly, but stepping lifeline is available to all those who need it, not just up in a once-in-a-century situation such as this is what those who fit the mould of support schemes that were government is for. I am old enough to remember the created hastily. I look forward to the day when SMEs last time that we had real mass unemployment in this can just get on with it again and think of their business, country, when I was growing up in the 1980s, and the rather than what support is available, but that is a long social and economic consequences of that were felt for way off. As we focus our collective efforts on following many years afterwards, in terms of the impact both on guidance to drive down the virus, the Government must individual families and on areas such as the Black make sure the measures are in place to protect jobs and Country, part of which I represent, and many other businesses while we all seek to save lives. parts of the country, too. A lot of the interventions this time have enjoyed 3.38 pm cross-party support. We called for the furlough scheme Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) and we supported it. That was particularly true in the (Lab): Thank you for your chairmanship this afternoon, early days of the pandemic. But after that period, Sir Edward. I congratulate the hon. Member for Carshalton things have become both more disjointed and more and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) on tabling this debate contested, and there is a reason for that. and thank all Members who have contributed to a I think that we have had four different versions of an thoughtful and varied debate. I will not mention everyone, economic plan in the last six weeks, with different levels but I was particularly struck by some of the points of business support, various percentages of support for made, for example, by my hon. Friend the Member for self-employed people, and at one point the withdrawal Halifax (Holly Lynch) who raised the difficult issue of and then the reinstatement of furlough over one weekend. local markets; my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston Trying to keep track of all those changes reminded me upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) who talked of what was said about the legendary Celtic winger, about family owned coach companies; the hon. Member Jimmy Johnstone, and his effect on defenders; it was for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) who talked said that he gave them “twisted blood”. It would give about local shops; and my hon. Friend the Member for any small business person twisted blood trying to follow Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) on the issue of high all the twists and turns of what has been announced in rateable value properties in central London. The recent weeks, only for us to end up pretty much back indefatigable hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin where we started in March. Hollinrake) quite rightly described this period as a great acceleration; we do not have time today to explore that I make that point not to engage in a bit of political idea fully, but it is a crucial feature of the experience knockabout or to take a partisan swing; it is to make a that we are going through. My hon. Friend the Member more serious and deeper point, because I think the for York Central (Rachael Maskell) talked about story of recent weeks betrays a deeper problem within leaseholders and self-employed people. And of course the Government. We are led to believe that there has our great friend the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim been a debate or a disagreement in Government between Shannon) talked about the crucial wedding industry. I those who have championed public health on the one can tell him that in my part of the country—the Black hand and those who have championed the opening up Country—we have an enormous wedding industry, of the economy on the other. We might say it is a debate including an Asian wedding industry that is a huge between hawks and doves, with the Chancellor portrayed business, and it has suffered all the knock-on effects in this debate as a hawk. that he talked about. Any Chancellor will rightly be concerned with the The covid pandemic has forced Governments around state of the economy—that is their job—but the mistake the world to make major and unprecedented interventions in this situation, and the real point that I want to make in the economy. In this country, those interventions today, is to regard it as a choice between getting the have included some of the measures that we have heard virus under control and getting the economy moving about this afternoon: the furlough scheme; the grants to again. We should have learned by now that any economic small businesses; state-guaranteed lending schemes; tax plan that does not have at its forefront getting the virus deferrals; and a lot more. These interventions have been under control will not work, because when infections, large-scale; indeed, they have been on a larger scale hospitalisations and death rates are increasing, by definition than in previous recessions, because the experience is the economy cannot be opened up and cannot operate different to that of a normal recession. They have been properly. It cannot simply be decided that we open up necessary, although some people have been missed out the economy, because it would by definition mean—when by them, as we have heard. people cannot see their relatives and weddings and all sorts of gatherings cannot take place without resulting To have stood back and simply let business and in a new outbreak of the virus after a few weeks—going workers take the full hit from this pandemic would have into a period of opening up and lockdown, and opening caused economic carnage and long-term damage on a up and lockdown, particularly when the testing and scale unseen in living memory: it simply would not have tracking system is not working properly. been a feasible option for the Government to choose. In many cases, the grants and other support for small businesses that have been provided have been the difference Kevin Hollinrake: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 353WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 354WH

Mr McFadden: With the time constraints, I apologise Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma but I am going to keep going. Hardy) said about the coach industry. I will seek to Yesterday’sannouncement about a vaccine is potentially address as many points as I can. I thank colleagues for exciting news and an amazing triumph for science, if it their insightful and constructive contributions. works in the timescale, but of course we are not certain Like everyone in the Chamber this afternoon I share and we have to wait to see what happens. For the the concerns that hon. Members have expressed for the moment, we must manage the situation as it is. My financial wellbeing of the UK’s SMEs. It is difficult point is that good virus control is good economics. to overstate their place in and contribution to the UK They are not in competition with one another, and I economy. In 2019, the number of SMEs in the UK believe that the view that they are has led to some of the reached 1.4 million—a 31% increase in five years. As missteps of recent weeks. constituency MPs, we all know the contribution that Now that we are many months in, questions have SMEs make to our communities, and they now employ been raised about some of the schemes, in the light of over half of the UK workforce. Given that, it is no experience. I will end by putting some of those questions wonder that helping them endure and adapt to these to the Minister. The bounce back loans were meant for trying times has been a cornerstone of the Government’s genuine small businesses—the people that we all want response to the pandemic. They are at the front and to help to stay on their feet. The issue of fraud in the centre of our thinking and, as hon. Members know, our process has been raised. What does the Minister estimate strategy has been to protect jobs, crucially including the degree of fraud in bounce back loans has been, and those in small and medium-sized businesses. Much of how will he work with lenders and regulators to combat the support we have provided has been with them in that? Nothing will annoy genuine small business people mind, including our generous wage support schemes; more than people setting up fake companies, or whatever access to finance through millions of Government-backed scams have been done to try to get the loans. loans and billions of pounds of grant funding; and It is inevitable, even with the best efforts, that a targeted measures to help with fixed costs, such as proportion of the loans will falter, and it will not be statutory sick pay rebates and tax deferrals. possible to pay them back. I appreciate that the Government We have already helped keep millions of people in have extended the repayment period from six to 10 years, employment through the coronavirus job retention scheme. but that postpones the problem, it does not fully eliminate As of 18 October, we had helped 1.2 million employers it. Of the various options that have been canvassed for furlough 9.6 million jobs, and paid £41.4 billion in dealing with the problem of default, what has been grants. However, importantly, we understand that the ruled in and what has been ruled out? Have the Government economic effects of restrictions to tackle the pandemic ruled out writing off a proportion of the loans? Have outlast the restrictions themselves. That is why, last they ruled out turning any of that into longer-term tax week, the Chancellor announced that he was extending liability for firms, or into equity stakes in firms, if it the coronavirus job retention scheme until the end of cannot be paid back? March 2021. I respect the point that some have made As for payment or leasing holidays for coach companies about the changing nature of the support, but I suggest and similar businesses that we heard about in the debate, that is because of the changing nature of covid, which can the Government do anything to extend the six-month has driven the response of this Government. The Chancellor grace period that, for many small businesses, has either has moved very quickly when new health interventions been used up or is coming to an end soon? have been made. This scheme will help protect millions I have talked about the light of experience, and my of jobs in the coming months, and will allow smaller final question to the Minister is what the Government businesses to get back on their feet quicker when the can do for those who have so far been excluded from time comes. any kind of support. A large number of people have for We have also supported workers through the self- one reason or another fallen between the cracks of the employment income support scheme, one of the most different support schemes that have been announced. comprehensive and generous support packages for self- As the pandemic goes on—and, while we are hopeful employed people anywhere in the world. On top of the about the vaccine, we know it will continue into next £13.7 billion already claimed by 2.7 million self-employed year—those people’ssituation becomes ever more difficult. people through that scheme, a third grant will be available Is there anything that the Government can do at this until January, covering 80% of trading profits. A fourth stage to help them? grant will be available from February to April next year, with further details to be provided in due course. 3.48 pm However, the practical issues that prevented us from The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): including company owner-managers—namely, not being May I say what pleasure it is to serve under your able to verify the source of their dividend income—without chairmanship, Sir Edward? I join the other Members introducing unacceptable fraud risks still remain. Further, who have congratulated my hon. Friend the Member the issues around the newly self-employed in 2019-20— for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) on namely, that HMRC will not have access to their self- securing this important debate. I have listened extremely assessment returns in time to verify their eligible income— carefully to every speech, and we have had a wide-ranging also remain. The latest year for which HMRC has tax discussion of a range of industries that have, obviously, returns is 2018-19, and the 2019-20 returns are not due been adversely affected by the experience of covid up until 31 January 2021. Of course, Government and the and down the country, including the wedding industry Treasury continue to look carefully at all the representations and the retail sector in particular, with the impact on made on these matters to seek a way forward, but we the high street. I listened carefully to what the hon. have to be cognisant of those facts and how we would 355WH Support for SMEs: Covid-1910 NOVEMBER 2020 Support for SMEs: Covid-19 356WH meaningfully deal with them. However, we have pulled announced last week, the up-front guarantee of funding out the stops to provide businesses with the credit they for the devolved Administrations is increasing from need at this difficult time. £14 billion to £16 billion. I will now address some of the points that have been made about the bounce back loans and the coronavirus Emma Hardy: Will the Minister give way? business interruption loan scheme. As of 20 September, SMEs and other businesses had applied for and received John Glen: In the interests of time, I will not. It is for over £50 billion worth of CBILs and bounce back the devolved Administrations to decide how to use loans. As ever, my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk that guaranteed funding, irrespective of how the UK and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) is very well informed Government provide support. However, this uplift will on these matters, and made a number of suggestions support businesses across the United Kingdom. We are about the challenges that some businesses face when also protecting businesses with extensive tax breaks, securing loans. We have 28 providers that are accredited deferrals, and repayment flexibility through the time-to-pay for bounce back loans, and 100 that are accredited for scheme.Further Government support mechanisms enjoyed CBILs, but in this situation, we have non-bank lenders by SMEs include the statutory sick pay rebates and who are seeking to be part of that scheme and are eviction protection for commercial tenants until the end struggling to access the finance. As he well knows, of this year. access to the term funding from the Bank of England is I hope I have illustrated that SMEs are at the forefront a matter for the Bank of England, and we have tried to of our minds through this crisis. Support measures look at those matters and see if more can be done. available to those businesses represent a significant part The bigger issue that we have to learn from during of the £200 billion package of support that the Government this experience is that we have differentiated regulation have put forward. The IMF recently described the UK’s between different banks and different entities that are economic plan as “aggressive”, successful in “holding providing finance. It is a challenge both to provide down unemployment” and business failures, and consumer protection universally and to have the right “one of the best examples of coordinated action globally”. level of capital requirements for different entities, and However, I accept that it is never going to save every in extreme times, these are very challenging things to business and every job, and we will continue to engage come up with a neat intervention on. However, I will with colleagues across the House. To the hon. Member continue to work with my hon. Friend and others across for Midlothian (Owen Thompson), I will look into the the House to seek ways forward. meeting that has not happened yet and ensure that it The Opposition spokesman, the right hon. Member does. [Interruption.] I will also engage with the hon. for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), asked Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle, but I about the fraud risk. There is a big distinction to be must give my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton made between fraud in applications and default risk. and Wallington a few minutes to respond. When we designed those schemes, and the bounce back Wewill continue to listen carefully and we will maintain loans in particular, that self-certification form—where a flexible approach. As the Chancellor said in the businesses were obliged to make estimates of their House last week, things need to change when circumstances turnover and could access a percentage of that—was change. What that means for SME business owners up designed to be as accessible as possible.However,businesses and down the country is simply this: where and when also had to state clearly what the facts were around their necessary, we will take swift action to provide the support situation. The Cabinet Office is leading a piece of work they need. We will continue to do so as we work through across Whitehall to look at fraud risk and even more this awful crisis that has befallen our country. collaboration between the banks, sharing data about duplicate applications, and we will continue to work 3.58 pm very carefully on that. We are also allowing businesses Elliot Colburn: In the interests of time, I sadly cannot who have borrowed less than their maximum to top up go through every Member’s contribution. However, I their bounce back loans and extend their repayment thank all hon. Members and right hon. Members for period. attending this debate. We have done well to highlight I appreciate that it must sometimes feel as if Government the concerns of the sector and the two petitions that statements in our response to the pandemic are just a were brought forward to be debated today, so I reiterate long list of measures we have taken or are taking, but my thanks to all colleagues. I also thank the SMEs and this is a consequence of the range of things we are sectors that made representations to us all, which allowed doing. Forgive me, Sir Edward, but I will list a few more us to come here and express their views. I thank the ways we are helping businesses, which my hon. Friend Minister for his reply. I absolutely welcome the the Member for Carshalton and Wallington is right to Government’s support, and the extended Government be concerned about. They include £11.5 billion of grant support for SMEs through to the new year. I hope we funding to more than 900,000 business premises, with can go away and look at the sector-specific support we new grants to come through the winter months, and an have heard about because we need that road map to additional £1.1 billion of discretionary grant funding allow our SMEs not just to survive the pandemic, but for English councils—that is cash grants of up to £3,000 be the engine of our recovery as we come out the other for every four weeks of closure for English businesses side. forced to close. Backdated grants provide up to £2,100 Question put and agreed to. per month of support in arrears for eligible businesses Resolved, that have suffered from reduced demand in recent months. That this House has considered support for SMEs during the Those schemes are available nationwide. As the Chancellor covid-19 pandemic. 357WH 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Scams 358WH

Online Scams Amazon between March and August, following the first coronavirus lockdown. Black Friday is coming shortly, and this is particularly worrying for that. [PETER DOWD in the Chair] That is important because everyone takes notice of online reviews. I look at the reviews to decide when I 4.1 pm buy something. The Competition and Markets Authority Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): I beg to move, estimates that consumer transactions worth £23 billion That this House has considered the matter of protecting people a year are influenced by online reviews. Many people from online scams. think, “Well, they’re a good guide—they must be; this It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, has a five-star review.”Amazon says it has clear policies Mr Dowd. We all know that access to the internet, that prohibit sellers from engaging in such activity, but whether for shopping, work or leisure, has absolutely Which? is concerned that the approach is not effective been a boon for millions of people, but it has brought and that firmer action is needed to address the problems. its own problems,not least in providing greater opportunities I agree and I hope the Minister will, too. for fraudsters and scammers in an area where there is The losses that people suffer from responding to too little protection or redress for consumers who have fake or impersonator adverts are substantial. A Which? been cheated out of their money. investigation highlighted one visitor who lost almost Scams and fraud are the most prevalent types of £100,000 after they clicked on an online investment crime in the UK. According to Action Fraud, 85% of featuring fake celebrity endorsement from Martin Lewis that is what it describes as cyber-enabled—for technophobes and Deborah Meaden. Another lost £160,000 by clicking like me, that means committed on the internet. The on an Aviva ad. Criminals are now using social engineering figure of 85% is for the year up to June 2020; it is bound and grooming techniques that target vulnerable consumers. to have grown since then because of the constraints Sometimes it is a follow-on from an initial contact made imposed by covid-19, which have encouraged people to from accessing fake sites’ online adverts. The Association spend a lot more time online. The more time they spend of British Insurers has told us about an increasing online accessing websites and social media platforms, number of fake websites operating the authorised push the more susceptible they are to becoming the victim of payment scams. Some of its members are dealing with a scam. That is not because they are stupid or even 32 fake websites at the same time. An APP scam occurs naive, but because they underestimate how difficult it is when somebody is tricked into authorising a transfer of to spot the online fakery and fraud and they often money to an account that they think is a legitimate overestimate the vetting process undertaken by the payee, but is in fact controlled by a scammer. They can established online marketplaces. The frauds are ever be made online, on the phone or in person, and most more sophisticated. The Association of British Insurers take place instantly. briefing says that even their staff struggle to spot the UK Finance said that £208 million was lost to APP sites that are fake. If the staff of insurance companies scams in the first half of 2020. Most fraud took place themselves struggle, what hope is there for us as customers? on personal accounts with £164 million lost, and the There are many money scams: investment scams, non-personal and business loss was £44 million. Some banking scams, insurance scams, pension scams, victims have lost their entire life savings. They are often conveyancing scams, purchase scams, often involving groomed into handing money over by staff at fake call non-existent products—the Cats Protection League has centres.They do not do it instantly; they build a relationship told me that non-existent cats are being sold online— with people now and often use the names of genuine romance scams, involving fake partners, and even scams financial services staff. targeting those seeking debt help. They all have one There have been advances.The contingent reimbursement thing in common: they dupe people out of money, and model code is designed to give people the confidence it is often big money. Action Fraud shows that the value that if they act appropriately they will be reimbursed, of losses from reported incidents—many people keep but, even between May 2019 and September 2020, only quiet about incidents because they feel stupid, but they 40% to 45% of losses were repaid by the victim’s bank are not—is £2.3 billion. Individual amounts are absolutely or repatriated—the money was recovered and credited—so eye-watering: tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds— people are still being left out of pocket. I have to give someone’s whole life savings gone or the proceeds of a credit to the TSB, which is going further than the code, house sale gone. and it believes that it has not had more fraudulent There are lots of ways in which scammers operate; claims because it is going further. Fraud is still taking they use different tricks. These include fake websites or place. Serious amounts of money are being lost. What adverts, particularly involving established brands; they solutions does the Minister propose for the APP scams? sometimes feature fake celebrity endorsements. Fake I have mentioned grooming, and that word is appropriate reviews are a big problem on many of the biggest here. We used to hear about paedophiles grooming. It is websites.Which? has consistently shown that. The consumer about building up trust over time, and that is what body has had evidence of fake and suspicious review happens in many cases of scams. activity on eBay, Facebook and Tripadvisor. And new research suggests that Amazon is struggling to spot and Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP): I thank the prevent sellers from using unscrupulous tactics. There is hon. Lady for giving me the opportunity to speak on blatant evidence of sellers using free gifts and vouchers this timely subject. In the past few weeks in my constituency, to incentivise shoppers to write positive reviews. Many I have had two cases of online scams brought to me. are done in a suspiciously short time, with a suspiciously One gentleman thought he had purchased a car. He high number of review images. There was a more than paid £9,000 and it was not there when he went to collect 30% rise in the proportion of suspicious reviews on it. It was a Northern Ireland to Scotland transaction. 359WH Online Scams 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Scams 360WH

Another gentleman has lost £260,000 in three separate but scammers are extremely agile and good at what they investments in what he thought was a legitimate investment do, and it is not enough to prevent serious fraud. site. More needs to be done. We need to educate people Weneed a strong regulatory framework. Online platforms and hold the platforms to account. We also need to should be given the responsibility for preventing ensure that the police have the legislative powers to deal scam content from appearing on their sites and more with such cases, because in both of those instances, the responsibility for removing it when it is reported. That police would not even investigate them. Through the would perhaps bring them a bit more into line with hon. Lady today, I ask the Minister to really take this consumers’ expectations. matter in hand and start to give the police the legislative The online harms Bill seems the perfect opportunity powers to tackle the problem. to deliver that. By including financial harms, there is a greater responsibility on the search engines and social Yvonne Fovargue: I totally agree with the hon. Lady. media platforms to identify and remove harmful content. We find that people build up a relationship with their I understand why the White Paper is limited in scope. scammers. Trust is key for push payments, as we have Platforms and sites will be required to take reasonable heard. I also want to talk quickly about romance scams, steps to identify and prevent user-generated child sexual in which lonely victims are lured into pretend relationships exploitation and abuse, and terrorist content. However, over manymonths.They are tempted with fake photographs the tools that the scammers use to target their victims— and back stories, and the scam is revealed only after social engineering and grooming—are similar to those thousands of pounds have been handed over, probably used by criminals in financial fraud. The same requirement for non-existent medical treatment for a relation. I have should be extended to cover the scam content defrauding a constituent who handed over thousands of pounds of people of their money and causing immense mental Amazon vouchers to a fake USA army major. The anguish and harm, let alone financial anguish. photograph on his Facebook page had been used more There is also a strong case for ensuring that the Bill than 50 times with different names to scam people. covers both paid-for advertising and user-generated Surely Facebook should have an algorithm that spots content, because the scammers use both. As Which? that type of suspicious activity. points out, if we do not tackle the user-generated scam It is all too easy to say that people need to be more content, scammers will adapt. They will use that loophole careful. Yes, they do need to be careful, but scams are and move from posting scam ads to organic user-generated ever more sophisticated, and even the most experienced scam content. There is support for that approach from people cannot always spot them. Scammers prey on Which?, UK Finance and the FCA. vulnerable and lonely people, and under covid-19 people I hope the Minister will commit to widening the are becoming more isolated. They are possibly not able scope of the online harms Bill. If he will not, will he to discuss it with their friends and neighbours and say, introduce proposals for further legislative action to “Is this real? Is it not?”. protect people from online scams effectively? The Government have said that their objective is for the UK What is more, people think at the outset that they are to be the safest place in the world to go online. We have protected from this double-dealing. After all, they assume a chance now to make that a reality. that adverts placed on a well-known platform are legitimate and that the product has been vetted or checked. That is the sort of protection that people are used to on the 4.14 pm high street, but online platforms do not have a legal The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): obligation to protect users against scams on their site. May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your Surely that is wrong, given that they are taking revenue chairmanship, Mr Dowd? I thank the hon. Member for from the sellers. Why should the consumer have to Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) for securing a debate on shoulder the burden if things go wrong? Does the this important topic. I pay tribute to her general competence Minister agree that the burden of responsibly should be and knowledge on consumer issues. I have engaged with on the platforms and sites, which have the data and her a number of times as a Minister, and I always tools, and not on the consumer, who is at a clear appreciate the constructive way she approaches this disadvantage in this business? topic. She has demonstrated again this afternoon her The voluntary initiatives are not working; they are comprehensive awareness of the complexity of this not sufficient to tackle the online scams. Only 30% of subject, and how it impacts so many of our constituents. Facebook users are aware of the social media site’s I know very well how this issue matters to many scam advert reporting tool, and only 10% of people colleagues across the House, because it has impacted so have used it. That is really not good enough. I am many across our constituencies. As a constituency MP, pleased that the Financial Conduct Authority is producing I have encountered the financial and mental impact, literature warning customers of possible online scams, and the anguish it causes individuals in my surgery. but is it not ironic that the regulator is paying for an I assure Members that the Government are committed advert on Google, which is taking similar revenue for to tackling this complex problem. I will set out the the fake adverts on its site? It is a bit of a double-whammy context. There have been rapid changes to modern for the search engine—it is getting it twice. payments, which bring great benefits and opportunities I am obviously not against measures to raise to many, but with new opportunities come new risks, public awareness of scams, and some very good work is such as the type of scams the hon. Lady set out. More being done. The Pension Wise guidance has had a real people and businesses are buying and selling online. impact on people’s awareness of pension scams. Many People are using a range of innovative ways to make organisations, including regulators, charities and advice payments via card, mobile and electronic wallets. In agencies, have helpful advice about how to avoid scams, 2019, over two-thirds of UK adults used online banking, 361WH Online Scams 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Online Scams 362WH

[John Glen] The financial services sector is just one part of the equation in combatting fraud. Other industries, including half used mobile banking, and for the first time cards online platforms, which have been mentioned, have a accounted for more than half of UK payments. Those role to play. The National Cyber Security Centre has new technologies and products have helped to make been leading the way in ensuring that online scams are payments faster and cheaper, and provided exciting taken down as quickly as possible, and this year it opportunities for UK businesses and consumers. launched a new suspicious email reporting service, making Alongside those innovations, as the hon. Lady rightly it easier for the public to highlight suspicious emails said, criminals are becoming increasingly devious and and websites. The service has already led to more than sophisticated, and are ruthlessly exploiting these new 3.6 million reports and more than 18,000 scams being technologies and the digitisation of commerce to perpetrate removed, but I recognise that more needs to be done. scams. The truth is that there is no silver bullet. I wish The Financial Conduct Authority’sScamSmart website, there was. Success in the matter depends on quite which is not limited to online scams, also aims to help sophisticated collaboration between Government, the consumers protect themselves against investment scams. regulators, banks and online platforms, and between It does that by allowing users to search a warning list to customers and the services they use. The Government check an investment opportunity and report scams or are committed to playing their part to facilitate that unauthorised firms. Anybody who falls victim to such better collaboration. scams should contact Action Fraud UK to help us Turning to the current situation and what is already catch the criminals. As the hon. Member for Upper being done, authorised push payment scams—APP Bann (Carla Lockhart) mentioned in her contribution, scams—have become a major problem in recent years. this is a universal problem, and I recognise her anxiety Fraudsters use sophisticated techniques to trick people, about the sufficiency of the measures. As I say, I am often, as the hon. Lady said, by forming phony relationships happy to continue the discussion about what more can and defrauding people into authorising payments to be done. criminal-controlled accounts. According to UK Finance, The private sector has its own responsibility to protect £456 million was lost to these scams in 2019, up from customers online. We have been working with online £354 million the year before. platforms and industry to take down fraudulent materials and websites. The specialist Dedicated Card and Payment Last week, I met with the managing director of the Crime Unit is a great example of that partnership at Payment Systems Regulator and raised concerns like work: it is a proactive police unit and involves UK those we have heard today. We agreed that more needs Finance, the City of London police, the Metropolitan to be done to ensure victims are protected. To that end, police and the Home Office. It continues to develop new the Payment Systems Regulator and industry are working partnerships with social media companies to take down together to improve the level of protection provided to accounts being used for various fraudulent ends and to consumers through the existing voluntary code, known stop the recruitment of people as money mules. as the contingent reimbursement model code, which the hon. Lady referenced. As well as working to prevent scams, we need to look after those who fall victim to them. We need to consider Banks that have signed up to that code have agreed to the emotional, as well as financial, harm that victims reimburse victims of APP scams, so long as they took a experience. That is why we are working with national reasonable level of care when making the relevant payment. and local policing, including police and crime As the hon. Lady will know, the code has been operating commissioners, to support the victims of these terrible since May 2019, and its effectiveness is currently being crimes. Even where it is not possible to investigate a case reviewed by the lending standards board, the body further, the Action Fraud economic crime victim care responsible for governing it. I look forward to the unit supports victims by helping them to recover and conclusions of that review. The hon. Lady cited statistics, better protect themselves in future. What about the next which I recognise require thorough examination. steps? A lot of good work is being done, but we cannot When it comes to fraud, prevention is just as important rest on our laurels. This is a sophisticated problem: just as any cure. That is why the authorities are taking steps as the wider banking, online and commercial landscapes to ensure that fewer people fall foul of the scams in the continue to evolve, so the methods used by criminals to first place, notwithstanding the sophisticated nature of defraud customers evolve. In June 2019, the Treasury the interactions that lead to them. At the request of the announced a review of the payments landscape, and we Payment Systems Regulator, the six biggest UK banking recently held a call for evidence as the first stage. That groups have introduced a process known as confirmation call for evidence reflected on the success of the Faster of payee. Under that process, the bank account and sort Payments Service as a 24/7 real-time payments system, code numbers are checked against account names, to but it also noted that Faster Payments currently lacks ensure that payments are going to the intended recipients. scheme rules to resolve disputes and assign liability It is early days, but we are confident that this innovation when payments go wrong, including—crucially—in the is an important step forward in preventing scams from case of APP scams. The Government have concluded succeeding in the first place. that a set of comprehensive rules in the Faster Payments The challenge is that for a number of those measures—we Service could make a real difference to tackling that are probably all familiar with them from doing payments problem. We have sought views on the issue and will ourselves—it comes down to where culpability lies. The outline our next steps in due course. hon. Lady made observations about the sophisticated relationship and the conditioning that has sometimes Yvonne Fovargue: Will the Minister also look into the taken place. That is what we are dealing with and what fact that many criminals, particularly in romance-type we have to get to grips with. frauds, have moved on to asking for Amazon vouchers? 363WH Online Scams 10 NOVEMBER 2020 364WH

What can be done in cases such as that of my constituent, Covid-19 Vaccine who bought thousands of pounds-worth of Amazon vouchers and sent them abroad? 4.29 pm John Glen: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): I beg to Although I have not personally experienced that, through move, either my constituency or ministerial work, she makes a That this House has considered covid-19 vaccine. sensible point about the evolving nature of those frauds. In that particular example, it would be reasonable to Is locking down the nation the only way of combatting expect the platform to observe the obvious unusual covid-19? Whatever suggestions emerge from this debate, nature of such a purchase. This is not territory with we must continue to protect the vulnerable and at-risk which I am directly familiar, but I will take it back to my individuals. I was briefed by three leading vaccine colleagues in Government, including at the Department manufacturers to discuss their work in the fight against for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. this disease. Following those calls, I wanted to have this debate to see what can be done to accelerate the licensing More of us are transacting online than ever before, and deployment of vaccines, and the immediate extension opting for the speed and convenience of new forms of of vaccine and therapeutic trials, and how we can banking and payments, but sadly fraudsters are taking ensure that people can take up these vaccines when they advantage and developing ever more sophisticated ways are approved. of scamming people. We cannot row back on digital innovation and, given the immense benefits, nor should According to the Department of Health and Social we, but it is crucial that people have confidence in how Care website, the Government’s preferred route to enable they transact online. deployment of the vaccine remains through the usual licensing routes available. It goes on to say that temporary Carla Lockhart: The Minister mentioned Action Fraud licensing can occur only in “exceptional circumstances.” and the police. The problem is that Action Fraud does The recent report of the Tony Blair Institute for Global not seem to have the capacity to deal with the volume. It Change has been helpful in bringing further attention then passes cases to the London police, who cannot to this issue. It highlights four ways to avoid further investigate them. Action Fraud needs to be bolstered—it lockdowns, of which two are of interest: expanding the needs support to investigate what is going on beneath trial of therapeutic drugs and shortening the process for the surface. approving vaccines. The report is helpful, although it has its limits, and I believe that we can go further and John Glen: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. The do better, first, by seeking volunteers to extend trials on challenge is that there are multiple streams of activity a larger scale and to those who are most at risk. because of the sophisticated nature of this problem. I We do not really know what scientists and the certainly understand the risk of confusion about who to pharmaceutical industry can accomplish, and there are go to, but Action Fraud is the first port of call. I accept ethical and responsibility issues that we need to address, that there needs to be clarity over what happens but at the moment the risk/reward ratio is out of kilter subsequently. and we need to do far more to address the possibilities. Government regulators in a wide range of industries There are 258 candidate vaccines worldwide, around 50 of are already taking action to ensure that there is progress. which are in clinical testing and 11 in the final regulatory For our part in the Treasury, along with other Whitehall approvals process. Between the three candidates that I partners, we will continue to actively explore what more mentioned, the Government have forward purchased a can be done. I feel very uncomfortable with this situation total of 190 million doses. The most publicised of these not being resolved and I am not complacent in the least are the joint enterprises between, first, AstraZeneca and about it. I will continue to engage with industry partners Oxford University, widely seen as the most advanced in on this and I am very grateful—sincerely—to the hon. the world, and secondly, Pfizer and BioNTech, also Member for Makerfield for raising this matter. much publicised after their promising announcement yesterday. The third is Valneva. All three companies Question put and agreed to. emphasise the support and help that the Government have given them. Let us not make another massive communications error by failing to remind the people that these decisions by the Government have helped provide stability and confidence, which have accelerated the whole testing process. None of the vaccines is the same and all three are unique in their approach. AstraZeneca and Oxford are pursuing an active vaccine. That type of vaccine uses a weaker and smaller amount of the virus to create immunity in the body. Examples of active vaccines are those for MMR––measles, mumps and rubella––and yellow fever. The former provides immunity for the rest of an individual’s life, but it is not known whether that would be the case with covid-19. Valneva is pursuing an inactive vaccine, using a killed version of the germ that causes the disease. Such vaccines are less able than active vaccines to provide immunity for life; typical examples are the flu jab and the rabies injection. Pfizer and BioNTech 365WH Covid-19 Vaccine 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine 366WH

[Bill Wiggin] 95% assuredness that the test results are reliable and the vaccine is effective. I hope that in a matter of weeks it are pioneering an mRNA vaccine. This is a relatively will be announced that the phase 3 trials have been new type of vaccine that uses a short segment of genetic completed, and then the regulators will study the data material to make a harmless version of a target protein before pronouncing whether the vaccine is fit for the or immunogen. This activates an immune response and public. generates antibodies that fight off the virus. The problem is that different regulators around the The development of vaccines is typically a long and world have different demands and requirements. This is drawn-out process, but in response to the pandemic, the plainly an area where we can assist the manufacturers, Government have helped to speed it up. There are by ensuring that the process is accepted as safe globally usually three phases. The first involves producing a and that the different demands, which delay the final small amount of vaccine for use in a controlled study outcome, can be agreed by the experts and the approvals with a small number of healthy adults. Tests are performed process can become smoother. on participants, half of whom are given the vaccine, the The pandemic reminds us that we are all people with other half a placebo. This ascertains whether the vaccine the same biological make-up, and to defeat the virus we generates the expected immune response and if it is safe. need to unite rather than specialise. Of course, the This stage usually takes only one or two years, yet all sooner we can vaccinate those most at risk—the elderly, that has been passed by all three vaccine candidates care workers and frontline staff—the sooner we can already. Scientists at this time will work to provide the begin to rebuild the country and the economy. When data, and a deal will be made with manufacturers to the common flu or influenza arrived, it was very likely produce whatever amount is required. to result in death. Nowadays, we give those most vulnerable Phase 2 sees the data from phase 1 scrutinised to in our society a flu jab to ensure that they remain safe, determine whether those who received the vaccine had and we can beat covid-19 in the same way. By reaching any adverse reactions. Again, this phase can take up to phase 3, these vaccines are deemed to be safe. two years, yet it has already been completed by all three The question of how effective the vaccine is remains candidates. A larger group of people—several hundred— unanswered, but that should not deter us from getting will then be given the vaccine to broaden the data set. on with vaccinating more people. For example, yesterday’s Until that phase is over, scientists and patients will not announcement by Pfizer was a promising step forward know who has received the vaccine and who has had the on this front. Normally, scientists strive for 70% to 80% placebo. That prevents the data being deliberately altered efficiency, meaning the vaccine is 70% to 80% effective and manipulated. At the same time, work will continue in reducing the likelihood of contracting the virus. to define the manufacturing methods and ensure consistency Therefore, even if it was lower, say 40%, we should still in the process. look at beginning the roll-out, because 40% could be Phase 3, the final phase, will include tens of thousands the difference between life and death for thousands of of study participants who represent a similar demographic people. That is why the existing Human Medicines to the population, including important factors such as Regulations 2012 contain a provision, regulation 174, age and ethnicity. As is the case with other phases, the that enables the temporary authorisation of the supply scientists, the patients and those collecting the samples of an unlicensed medicine in response to a public health or checking the results do not know who has received emergency. the vaccine and who has received the placebo. Getting With over 200 vaccines in development worldwide to phase 3 demonstrates a confidence in the safety, and 50 clinical trials, 11 of which are in final phase 3 efficiency and efficacy of the vaccine candidate. trials, the Government could look at incorporating as During this accelerated process, independent regulators many of those candidates as possible into further trials. have continued to monitor the trials, as they would with We could also have more of the public participating in any other vaccine. Safety and accountability have not trials, and not only healthy people but volunteers—they been compromised or relaxed in any way. As I call for a must be volunteers—who are vulnerable and at risk. further acceleration of this process, I do not wish to see The Pfizer and BioNTech candidate is already incredibly those standards dropped. Instead, we need better and close to completion, with footage of its full-flowing faster collaboration between Governments and regulators production line shown in the media only a couple of internationally,because at the end of phase 3 the regulator weeks ago, and yesterday we had the announcement will investigate the data and decide whether the vaccine that the safety monitors had found no problems and candidate is effective enough for mass production. that it was 90% effective. Now we have to wait for the Several factors affect the effectiveness of a vaccine. final data, but the Government could apply the same For example, the higher the number of patients in the parameters for therapeutics and their wider use. trial who test positive and require medical assistance, Therapeutics are medicines that help people who the more data manufacturers and regulators have to already have the disease, treatments that are improving use. This is referred to as “an event” and it allows to help reduce the fatalities from covid-19, and we have scientists and regulators to determine and prove the learned a lot about them since March. They are typically efficiency or efficacy of the vaccine—in other words, used when someone has a disease for which they have how likely it is to be effective. The more events that been hospitalised. They can both relieve pain and fight occur within the placebo patients, the more it helps back against the virus, reducing its effect on patients. scientists come to their final conclusions on how well For disease treatment, therapeutics are generally in the the vaccine is working. In statistical figures, one hopes form of a drug, and there is substantial evidence to to achieve a p-value or confidence quantifier lower than suggest that the use of therapeutics when administered 0.5. That would mean there is a lower than 5% chance can alter and halt the spread of the virus. Vaccines help that the figures in the test are wrong, giving the scientists prevent people from catching the virus, but therapeutics 367WH Covid-19 Vaccine 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine 368WH work for those who already have it. The fear of who received the vaccine. If we cast our minds back to overwhelming the NHS with covid cases prompted our that pandemic, 284,000 people died of swine flu globally. Prime Minister to lock us down again, but therapeutics Undoubtedly, the vaccine did more to halt the spread of can prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed and keep the virus as opposed to the damage it caused. Indeed, as people off ventilators. outlined in a 2010 article in Neurology Reviews, GBS Therapeutics come in a variety of forms, and the type was associated with the seasonal flu shot at a rate of being trialled for covid-19 is antibody treatment, of 10.6 cases per 10 million doses. That did not stop more which there are three types: single monoclonals; cocktails than 14 million people from receiving a flu vaccine last of monoclonals, which most covid-19 trials are using; year alone without incident. and polyclonals, such as plasma. Only four have so far There must be a balance in this argument between been approved worldwide, and the only one currently covid-19 and the risk to the 194 people who were killed approved in the UK is dexamethasone. Eli Lilly, an by it in the UK yesterday—eight people every hour. American company, is proving to be close with two This virus has killed over 49,000 people in this country separate antibody treatments,LY-CoV016 and LY-CoV555, alone. There is untold damage to people’s wellbeing, the latter of which is being tested in America as a mental health, livelihoods and the economy.Unemployment preventative therapy for residents in care homes. is rising and small businesses are closing. Social isolation Another therapeutic is Regeneron, which President inflicts vast damage, particularly on the old and the Trump famously claimed cured him of his own bout of poor, but if someone is vaccinated, the likelihood of covid-19, and AstraZeneca is in phase 3 trials for its their dying from this disease is significantly reduced. candidate, AZD7442. The UK Government have agreed Vaccination could also prevent people from passing the to an unspecified amount of the AZ candidate. Pfizer disease on, often unknowingly, to those they love, such also has advanced therapeutic trials under way, being as parents or grandparents. The Government and the developed in Sandwich in Kent, and 50 of these trials World Health Organisation should address not just how are going on worldwide. I think the Government could we vaccinate, and the therapeutic trials and approvals; reach out to manufacturers currently in trials and look in addition, lessons need to be learned and procedures to extend the trial in this country as soon as possible. changed. Therapeutics could significantly reduce the number of The suffering and death of so many people can be deaths, and these trials could be extended to those who reduced, with collaboration and a reduction in bureaucracy. are on ventilators or on oxygen, working not only with There must be a balance, weighing up the positives regulators but with medical bodies to agree on the against the risks. The World Economic Forum gauges ethical stance of compassionate use. that coronavirus has cost at least $8 trillion globally, Therapeutics have another huge advantage: their cost. and possibly as much as $16 trillion, and the cost is only A treatment course of dexamethasone can cost as little increasing. There is a way out and I hope that the as £5. Those courses are largely available and work well Government in this country and Governments abroad, with the rapid testing trials that are going on in Liverpool, the manufacturers, scientists, medical professionals and bridging the gap until the vaccine is approved. I have regulators will all work together to strive for a final written to the Prime Minister and the Health Secretary, resolution and a better way of addressing the threat of urging them to extent trials of vaccines for those people viruses in the future. who are at risk. During my call with AstraZeneca, I asked, “What more could we do to test safe medicines for people who fear for their lives, who at the moment 4.47 pm can do nothing but hope?” I expected to be told that nothing more could be done, but instead AstraZeneca’s Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the team suggested that we ask them for suggestions on hon. Member for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin) on what they think they could do. I have faithfully passed setting the scene so well. I am very supportive of his on that request, because I think that, for all of us, this comments and recognise the need to get a covid vaccine stems from the need to save lives. in place. Of course, I understand that people are concerned The Health Secretary announced on TV this morning about the new vaccines. However, despite the social that, as was rumoured last night, a vaccine has been media opportunities, less time should be spent on the found, but at the same time he was cautious in his anti-vaxxers and more on those who want to protect assessment, stating that we should welcome what is their parents and grandparents. Given the guidance happening but remain ever mindful of the need for from the Joint Committee on Vaccination and medical trials, which the hon. Gentleman also referred Immunisation, the current advice is that vaccines will be to. We watched that unfold and then later in the day we administered not to children but to adults, starting with had an opportunity in the main Chamber to ask the the most elderly and working down to the over-50s. Health Secretary questions—I think 60 right hon. and Detractors and anti-vaxxers believe that vaccines can hon. Members did just that. be unsafe, and it is true that vaccines can run the risk of I welcome the fact that there might be 10 million causing side effects in some people, just like driving a doses of the vaccine available by the end of this year. I car or riding a bike can pose risks—nothing in life am particularly happy because it is a bit of good news comes without a degree of risk. Those people want to at long last. I am always a “glass half full” person, but wait for the one-in-a-million or even the one-in-10-million in the last six months it has been very difficult to try to event to occur before we deploy. Those arguing against be positive about where we are going, because the rushing the vaccine cite examples such as the H1N1 uncertainty was unreal. So today we have some good swine flu vaccine. Those shots reportedly caused Guillain- news. I know that we are not there yet, but we are Barre syndrome paralysis in 6.2 people per 10 million moving in the right direction. 369WH Covid-19 Vaccine 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine 370WH

[Jim Shannon] are with the virus. Ever mindful of the shortage with the flu vaccine, I hope we will ensure that the covid vaccine I am very pleased that Pfizer has achieved this is available. breakthrough. However, I have some concerns at this In this morning’s debate, which was also attended by stage that the vaccine will only be for adults—I will the Minister, there was mention of the black, Asian and comment on children in a few minutes. The fact that minority ethnic community and people with obesity, AstraZeneca is also involved, as are many other companies who are more liable, according to the stats, to have a around the world, shows the need to work together. I covid-19 diagnosis. Again, when it comes to prioritising, think that the Health Secretary said, in reply to one of I hope that we may include that issue. the questions put to him today, that we need to work on I want to make a plea for ethnic groups across the an international basis, and he is right. The hon. Member world, as I did in the Chamber last Thursday in a for North Herefordshire also referred to that. It is really debate about vaccines across the world opened by the important that we realise that we are all in this together, hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain). the world over, so it is important that we get ourselves I have a personal interest in religious minorities and organised. different ethnic groups, and I want them to have the I am a diabetic—a type 2 diabetic. It is one of those opportunity to have the vaccine. The hon. Member for chronic diseases that means I have to get the flu vaccine North Herefordshire mentioned that issue, and he was every year. I was fortunate enough to get the flu vaccine right. When it comes to handing out vaccines or covid-19 way back in September, I think, when I had occasion to help and assistance, the people at the end of the queue be in the doctor’s surgery. I am not there very often, but every time are the Christians and small minority groups I was down getting a check-up and they said, “Take in countries across the world. The Health Secretary also your flu vaccine now.” I am glad that I did, because the mentioned that in passing today in the Chamber—I am fact of the matter is that they have run short of flu referring to him quite often, and that is because I vaccines in my constituency, and in many other parts of am taking note of the points that he made in the the United Kingdom. Chamber. I want to make sure that the vaccine is My question to the Health Secretary this afternoon available not only for us, here, but for every person in was about the shortage of flu vaccines, and the importance the world. That comes back to the point about needing of ensuring that the covid-19 vaccine, once trials are to deal with the matter internationally, and I hope that completed, is available to those who need it, so that we that is where we will be going. do not find ourselves in the same situation as many of my constituents—of a certain age, vulnerable, and who 4.56 pm have come to me for assistance because they cannot get the vaccine. We also want to ensure that the flu vaccine John Howell (Henley) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve that many are waiting for is available. under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. School teachers and care professionals—nurses, doctors Yesterday the news was announced that Pfizer had a and frontline workers—must be considered priorities potential vaccine that was quite advanced. I do not for the vaccine once we know it is safe. If the vaccine is know how it affected other hon. Members in the Chamber, offered, I intend to take it, but some of my constituents but my heart skipped a beat. It was brilliant news, and it have contacted me to say that they do not wish to do so. is not surprising that the attitude in the rest of the The Minister has previously said that there will be no country has been exactly the same. It is also not surprising compulsion, but my health is not just about me: it is that the stock exchange has effectively gone wild in about you, Mr Dowd, about the shadow Minister, about some areas. People are utterly depressed by the lockdown hon. Members and about every one of my constituents. they are living in, and the news gave them hope that My duty is to everyone else. there is a real light at the end of the tunnel, towards I am conscious of the time and I will not take much which they could drive. Unlike the lights in most tunnels, longer, but I want to make a plea for something that will it is not an oncoming train, but a real opportunity to get be possible only with the support of the pharmaceutical out of the situation we are in. companies and those who understand the science. I, like However, it was quite right of the Prime Minister to you, Mr Dowd, and other Members, regularly see children pull back a bit on that in his broadcast last night. A at my constituency surgeries with chronic asthma and number of things need to be looked at and studied other respiratory complaints. Their parents send them before we can really rejoice in what Pfizer has done. to school daily in fear. The young girl who drafts my Most scientists, for example, anticipate that a vaccine speeches and does my research has a four-year-old with will not be 100% effective. As my hon. Friend the chronic asthma. She had to self-isolate at home from Member for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin) said, it March until the beginning of August. Members might is only—I use the term lightly—90% effective. However, ask whether that is possible, but it is what the doctor no vaccine will be 100% effective. We need to ensure told her to do with her child. I hope that the trials will that any approved vaccines are as effective as possible, come up with a covid-19 vaccine that children can so that they can have the greatest impact on the pandemic. access to. We have also heard that there is a robust pipeline of I support the Education Minister and my own Education potential vaccines in development and that some have Minister back home in saying that children need to be already advanced to phase 3. However, we cannot be at school, but they need to be safe at school. Only certain when a vaccine will become available. That is yesterday my grandchild was sent home because some why we cannot rely on a future vaccine to fight the of the pupils and teachers in the form above her showed pandemic. We must use all the tools we already have at covid-19 symptoms. They are all self-isolating for two our disposal, such as testing, contact tracing, physical weeks, but the fact is that we just do not know where we distancing and masks. I also recommend co-trimoxazole, 371WH Covid-19 Vaccine 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine 372WH a drug that is being trialled in Bangladesh and India include frontline health and care workers at high risk of and that has also been trialled to a certain extent in the infection, older adults and those at high risk throughout UK, which stops the inflammation of the lungs that the population—people who are suffering from conditions comes with this terrible virus. such as heart disease and diabetes. As the second phase It is too early to know whether covid-19 vaccines will rolls forward and more doses are produced, the vaccine provide long-term protection. Additional research is should go to groups at less risk of being infected or needed to answer that question. However, the thing that suffering badly. encourages me from the data on people who recover I will finish there. This is an exciting opportunity, from covid-19—I believe my hon. Friend has recovered which we should not let go of. We should keep on top of from it—is that they develop an immune response that this. Let us all hope that maybe in a few months’ time provides at least some protection against reinfection, we can all be here celebrating the distribution of at least although we do not know how strong that protection is one—and perhaps more than one—vaccine that will and how long it lasts. However, that data gives me help us out of this situation. encouragement that a vaccine can duplicate and pick up on that—if it was not there, I would be very worried 5.5 pm that a vaccine was not going to work. Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (SNP): A number of people have mentioned the need to do I thank the hon. Member for North Herefordshire (Bill things on an international basis, and that is a great Wiggin) for securing this important and highly relevant concern of mine. I happened to meet and have discussions debate. It is understandable that we may share a feeling with Dr David Nabarro, who is the special envoy on of cautious optimism with the news that the candidate covid for the World Health Organisation. The Council vaccines are showing not only promise but a high degree of Europe—this is one of the great things that comes of efficacy based on the phase 1 and 2 data. I pay out of the Council of Europe made a discussion available tribute to the scientists who have led this encouraging to members of the social affairs committee. We had a development, and I wish them every success as they virtual session with Dr Nabarro, who is an engaging, move to take the vaccine through the necessary steps to absolutely brilliant man who answers questions ensure that it is clinically safe and as we begin to forthrightly—he will never make a good politician, but prepare for widespread deployment. what I got out of the session was absolutely brilliant. To Those steps and others, such as continuing to manage think that, in 2017, we put him forward to be the the current outbreak through test, trace and isolate director general of the World Health Organisation, a methods and protecting our frontline staff with the proposal that was lost in the politics of the WHO. What necessary personal protective equipment, are absolutely a shame. What a difference that man would have made vital if we are to rebuild each nation’s economy and to the World Health Organisation. return to as normal a way of life as possible. While I The World Health Organisation has a number of may have some sympathy with those who desire less programmes. It has a value framework for the allocation rigorous controls on our freedoms, the economy and and prioritisation of covid-19 vaccinations. It has a clinical trials, the consequences of relaxing too soon are road map for prioritising population groups for vaccines clear to see given the second wave we are living through foe covid-19. The fair allocation framework aims to and a second nationwide lockdown in England. While ensure that successful vaccines and treatments are shared some have argued that that is a risk worth taking to equitably across all countries. The framework advises protect the economy, the consequences will ultimately that once a covid-19 vaccine is shown to be safe and be further damage to that which they argue they are effective and is authorised for use—there is an argument, trying to protect. which I fully accept, that we could do more to make That is, similarly, the situation regarding drug licensing, sure that different regulatory authorities are brought and I want to pick up on some of the points the hon. into line on this—all countries should receive doses in Member for North Herefordshire referred to. The desire proportion to their population size to immunise the to suspend usual licensing rules would have consequences. highest priority groups. That is just the first phase, after They have been developed for important reasons, and which the vaccine will roll out. If the World Health those consequences matter. Just as with the caution Organisation can continue in its role—I hope the United over announcing a lockdown, I would urge caution over States backs off from deserting it and allows it to taking any liberties with the phasing of clinical trials. continue—it will be one of the things that helps to get That phasing really matters. It is exactly what is required, the vaccine to all countries. particularly if we want to give a clear, confident message to the population that any vaccine has been tested to Jim Shannon: I am sorry for intervening, but I am ensure it is safe. concerned that those who are in good health but who I would pick up on one example. This vaccine uses an happen to have a fairly deep pocket financially may angiotensin-converting enzyme II molecule as its entry think they can access this vaccine. It is really important receptor, and in situ and in vitro it has been demonstrated that the people who access the vaccine for covid-19 are to have had a paradoxical effect, so it is not well those who need it right now and who perhaps do not understood. It has a key role to play in blood pressure have the finance to buy it, as others might. Does the and other cardiac regulation, so it is important that we hon. Gentleman agree? pay attention to the short-term and particularly the late effects of any such treatment. John Howell: The hon. Gentleman makes a good I also urge caution over the temptation to rush forward, point. The World Health Organisation’s group of experts in that we have serious issues to consider ahead of the has already provided recommendations to countries deployment of any vaccine in a meaningful way across about which populations should be prioritised. They the nations of the UK. 373WH Covid-19 Vaccine 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine 374WH

Bill Wiggin: I hoped I had been clearer that I was not appointee’s responsibility to act ethically and in good calling for a curtailment of any of the safety steps. faith and, most importantly, to transparently account However, with eight people dying every hour, delay has for their actions. consequences too. What is not acceptable is that the Concerns about passing on company names that the standards for safety in the UK may be slightly different Government favoured in the pursuit of a vaccine is not from the standards around the rest of the world. I was a matter for me to pass any judgment on, but they do asking for a coming together so that we can have that need to be scrutinised fully. The most recent concerns, agreed consensus on safety. set out in The Guardian this morning, are also significant. In simple terms, how can a job be considered unpaid Neale Hanvey: I thank the hon. Member for that when the postholder holds a position of influence or helpful clarification. I certainly hope that there would control in the process of awarding a £49 million investment be a concordance of agreement to ensure not only that in a company that they remain a managing partner of? similar standards are followed, but that research can be That Ms Bingham is married to a Treasury Minister worked on across all countries that have the capacity to should have set off the ethical alarm bells well in do so. advance of the matter appearing in the media. I will make some progress. In our collective hope that there is indeed light at the end of the tunnel, the Peter Dowd (in the Chair): Order. Mr Hanvey, can darkness of our shared journey through this pandemic you wind up your remarks, please? must not be allowed to obscure our important public duty to act in good faith and with financial probity. Neale Hanvey: I am just about to finish, Mr Dowd; That responsibility is not only of value in and of itself; sorry. we must do that out of respect for the many who did not Whether the sign-off of the £49 million award came make it through and who succumbed to covid-19, and from Nick Elliott or, as the Secretary of State claimed in memory of those key workers who did so for the this morning, some civil servant, this matters. These most selfless of reasons. allegations of cronyism, if investigated and found to be I want to refer to comments made by the hon. Member true, are sure to make the expenses scandal, the cash-for- for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I agree with him that this honours scandal or the cash-for-influence scandal seem has been a long, dark six months; it has been incredibly like child’s play. This is a day for cautious optimism difficult. There is a need to feel optimistic, but it almost indeed, but not at any price. feels too good to be true. We hope that we will see this through, but again, I urge patience so that we can move 5.14 pm forward collectively. Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op): It is a We must not emerge from this dark period with an pleasure to serve under your chairship for the first time, “at any cost” attitude. We must ensure that the burden Mr Dowd. I am grateful to the hon. Member for North was shared equally and we acted together. In the spirit Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin) for initiating today’s debate of co-operation alluded to by the hon. Member for on this topic. Timing is everything in politics, and his is Henley (John Howell), during Prime Minister’s questions clearly spot-on. Similarly, a rare political skill is the on 18 March I asked a question about scientific support ability to make the complex comprehendible, and he and I concluded: really did that in his setting out of the debate. I do not “Does he agree that the prize on this occasion must be the know who is watching, but I did plug this debate when I victory and not patents and profits?” was on Sky News at lunchtime, so I hope a few people In response the Prime Minister stated: are, because that was the best explanation that I have heard, and certainly the best one that can be distilled “I endorse completely the sentiment that the hon. Gentleman has just expressed about the need to do this collectively.” into about 15 minutes, of just how rigorous the process is. I hope people will take from that explanation the And he concluded that reassurance that although we are keen for the vaccine to “everybody is working together on the very issues that the hon. succeed, there is a rigorous process. It has not been Gentleman raised.”—[Official Report, 18 March 2020; Vol. 673, retrofitted to fit the vaccination’s journey, so we should c. 1001.] have some confidence in that. With regard to the spirit of togetherness, it is deeply concerning that we repeatedly hear of cronyism at the To reflect on the two Back-Bench contributions, when heart of this Government, particularly in relation to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) referred their less than rigorous approach to appointments and to it being bit of good news, = he was speaking for all of procurement. This morning on the BBC’s “Today” us. He mentioned the groups that will be prioritised, programme, the Secretary of State was challenged about and I think there will be a high level of consensus on the costs surrounding the vaccine taskforce’s work and that. Hopefully, it is something that we will settle on its processes. Rightly or wrongly, the appointment of very quickly. I was cheered by the hon. Member for Kate Bingham has proven controversial, and there are Henley (John Howell), who talked about the Council of no doubt questions to be asked about the absence of Europe and the World Health Organisation, because any clear recruitment process.However,when she appeared those are exactly the sorts of fora that we need to before the Health and Social Care Committee last week, engage with to get an equitable distribution around the I was very impressed by her performance. She has a very world. It is hard for all of us; this is why political real command of the work that she has been leading, consensus is so important. It is hard for us to tell our and the relevance and depth of her skillset were clearly constituents why we feel there needs to be a global in tune with the demands of such a position. However, distribution when people are so desperate to get their that does not negate the Government’s or, indeed, any lives back to normal, but we know there is both a moral 375WH Covid-19 Vaccine 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine 376WH and a pragmatic obligation to do that. The organisations An area where I think there might be a little more that the hon. Gentleman talked about are exactly the room for divergence is delivery. We do not know what places for those conversations. the future holds for the vaccine or when things will pop up, but it is reasonable to say that we expect one, and we On the politics of this, it is really important that we know the scale of our population, so we have no reason do not mess around or be mischievous with the idea of not to have significant plans. When the Health Secretary the vaccine. There is a big public conversation about was pushed on it this afternoon, he said that there were this. Any look of doubt from us would be magnified plans, but he was less forthcoming on what they were. I significantly.As community leaders,we have a responsibility am keen for more detail. Whether it was PPE at the to say that we trust the process. The outcome is whatever early stage of the pandemic or test and trace, frankly, the outcome is, but the process itself is a proper one that throughout it, such big-scale planning and logistical we trust. That is certainly what hon. Members will see exercises have not gone flawlessly. Qualifications could from the Opposition. be made when they were being done for the first time, Yesterday’s news on the progress and the efficacy of but we cannot repeat those mistakes now that we are, I the vaccine will have cheered all of us. I know that the hope, learning from what has happened. Government are on record with regard to doses from Again, the Health Secretary has talked quite a bit that particular provider, but when we add in the today in the media and the Chamber about the importance AstraZeneca-University of Oxford one and the Moderna of general practice. As I understand it, the BMA’s GP one, might the Minister be able to tell us how many committee, NHS Improvement and NHS England have pre-orders have been put in place for the vaccinations? agreed an enhanced service for general practice to lead That would help us to gauge the scale. I know the this process. That is good. People will want to see this Government have laid the pitch for the roll-out through delivered through the NHS rather than a private company, the changes to the human medicines regulations, and whether because they believe in its efficiency, as I certainly significant changes were made, including giving the do, or whether in general they think that will reflect best Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency in the population. That is a wise thing to do. the powers to grant temporary authorisation pending I understand that it is optional for practices to sign the granting of a licence. up, so may I get more detail from the Minister on that? I was grateful for the time that the Minister gave me If take-up is not good enough, will an alteration be with her and the deputy chief medical officer to talk considered? I also want to understand what assessment about those changes, but when will there be a parliamentary has been made about GPs’ capacity and workload. As I opportunity to do so? We need to demonstrate that we understand it, the programme requires participants to have scrutinised this properly because the public want to deliver at least 975 vaccinations over a seven-day period know that we are talking about these things to the fullest from each designated site—that will require 12-hour extent. That would also allow us to address the point days seven days a week, including bank holidays. GPs about immunity from civil liberty that the manufacturers are already busy, so I am keen to know about what and healthcare professionals are seeking, which is not assessments have been made about prioritisation. surprising, but there are important and significant qualifiers I do not have enough time to talk about this properly, around that not extending to sufficiently serious breaches. but I turn finally to the point made clearly by the hon. Will the Minister explain what a sufficiently serious Members for Henley and for North Herefordshire: we breach would look like, or when we might have an have to come to an equitable settlement globally, too, occasion to talk about that further? and to play a leading role in global organisations as we do so. On vaccine hesitancy, it seems there are distinct phases. We have the anti-vax movement, which is about the Peter Dowd (in the Chair): There will be multiple substance of vaccinations to an extent, but it also about votes in the Chamber shortly. I call the Minister to a broad range of other things. As our constituency speak. mailbags will reflect, there is also a group of people who are hesitant, which is entirely understandable. They want to know that any vaccination, whichever one it is, 5.22 pm is a safe one, but it is telling that last year the WHO had The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health vaccine hesitancy in its top 10 threats to global health—up and Social Care (Jo Churchill): Thank you, Mr Dowd. I there with a future pandemic. That is something that we will try to be concise. We have covered an awful lot of need to be aware of. We know that such speculation and ground, and to give my hon. Friend the Member for the stuff that moves online at an incredible pace can North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin) his two minutes— really damage the process. For example, in Denmark in 2013 there were false claims from a documentary about Bill Wiggin: I don’t need two minutes; just tell us the HPV vaccine, which led to a decline in uptake everything. among some of the cohorts from levels of around 90%. Similarly, between 2014 and 2017 in Ireland, vocal attacks on the HPV vaccine from the anti-vaccine lobby Jo Churchill: Right—bless you! led to a drop in take-up from 70% to 50%. These things It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, matter. One thing that best counters them is proactive, Mr Dowd. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member positive health promotion campaigns. I am keen to hear for North Herefordshire on securing this debate—and whether the Government plan to talk about these things on such a timely day, as the hon. Member for Nottingham to educate the population ahead of time, but, again, it North (Alex Norris) said. It is almost as if my hon. something that we all need to buy into, share and push Friend had planned it. I agree wholeheartedly with his out on a cross-party basis. comment that we must continue to protect the vulnerable 377WH Covid-19 Vaccine 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Covid-19 Vaccine 378WH

[Jo Churchill] Brazil and South Africa. I reassure all hon. Members that the Government are prioritising developing, acquiring as a priority. I also agree with much of what he said and deploying vaccines as soon as they are safely available. about making sure that we are moving at pace, while The NHS covid-19 vaccine research registry has been never sacrificing safety or efficacy, to drive forward and developed in partnership with NHS Digital to help make sure, in therapeutics and particularly in vaccines, facilitate the rapid recruitment of large numbers of that we are delivering as fast as we can. people into further trials over the coming months, so Many of those doing the work are involved not only that an effective vaccine for coronavirus could potentially in vaccine development but in vaccine manufacture. be found. It is important that we spread the net and That means that they are ready to deploy once regulatory encourage as many people of both genders and from as approval has been received. But the process has to be many different backgrounds as possible to take part, properly and ethically done, and people have to be because we know that there is often a degree of over- secure in the knowledge that the vaccine is safe. representation in clinical trials in certain areas. I know As everybody has mentioned, yesterday’s news excited that my hon. Friend is particularly interested in ensuring us. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Henley that we do not dismiss any potential vaccines, but he (John Howell) mentioned, there is not a golden bullet. also said that he is very interested in seeing things sped We need to carry on with the non-pharmaceutical up, so that bench to patient is much quicker. I could not interventions and with driving down the R number, as agree more. we are doing. But we have had good news, and we can Experts from the NHS, academia and the private all afford a little moderated optimism to give ourselves sector have worked closely with us to explore and a little bit of cheer. It is promising progress that takes us establish human challenge trials in the UK, backed by one step closer to finding a vaccine and, as has been more than £33 million-worth of investment. The studies much mentioned in this debate, to helping protect millions offer a chance to accelerate the development of promising of people across the world as well as in the UK. covid-19 vaccines in a safe and controlled environment. We need to make the vaccine clinically safe. We know They are being considered by regulators and ethics that it will not by itself bring the pandemic to an end, committees and, if approved, would start in January but an assured vaccine would be a huge step forward with results expected by May 2021. Almost £20 million towards resuming a normal way of life. After clean more is being made available to scale up capabilities to water, vaccination is the single most effective public process blood samples from clinical trials. health intervention. As my hon. Friend the Member for We have invested significantly through UK Research North Herefordshire said, the benefits are enormous. and Innovation to provide unique capability for process, Working with the Department for Digital, Culture, development and scale up. Once an effective vaccine is Media and Sport and social media platforms, we are ready, we must be able to manufacture it at an unmatched making sure that the message of vaccination hesitancy and hitherto unseen speed. We will then move on to is worked on. We are doing that across Government deployment. I am running out of time, but I am sure and, more broadly, across companies. This is a national that the usual routes will give us a chance to talk about effort, and we have to work together to make sure that that deployment and other pertinent issues at another we give the right message that gives people confidence. date. There is enormous collaboration across science,medicine, The global co-operation was mentioned by several industry and government, here and internationally, to hon. Members. Globally accessible vaccines, treatments find a safe vaccine. Our aim of rapidly developing a and tests are needed for all of us. No single country mass-produced vaccine means that we are striving to do holds the key; it is a worldwide pandemic, and we are something that has never been done before. Progress is stronger when working together. The UK has taken a being made at an extraordinary pace. strong role in global leadership and in collaborating My hon. Friend the Member for North Herefordshire with other countries. Our commitment to international took me back to my degrees by mentioning p-numbers collaboration is clear, and we were proud to work through and statistical significance, and as he said, although multilaterals—such as the G7 and G20, and with the access to the vaccine should be given as quickly as WHO and other international partners, including industry possible, we must ensure that it is safe. I congratulate —to agree collaborative approaches to supporting vaccine the vaccine taskforce, which has been mentioned, on its development, manufacturing scale-up and future hard work leading the UK’seffort to find and manufacture distribution to meet domestic and international needs, a vaccine. It has successfully secured early access to including for the world’s poorest countries, which touches 350 million doses through agreements with six separate on points that were made earlier. vaccine developers. I thank scientists and clinicians around the world for My hon. Friend spoke of several of the vaccines, but their remarkable efforts in working at pace to develop not all of them. We have four different types: the covid-19 vaccines. I thank my hon. Friend for securing Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, which is in phase 3 trials; this debate. The vaccine will not be a silver bullet—we the BioNTech-Pfizer mNRA vaccine, about which we have to keep trying—but it will be one of the several had the excellent phase 3 trials news yesterday; and tools that help our fight against the virus and allow us inactivated whole virus vaccines and protein adjuvant to have a more normal way of life. vaccines, which are all in phase 1, 2 or pre-clinical trials. Question put and agreed to. The vaccine taskforce makes a call on those most likely Resolved, to be effective, because we need a rational approach. That this House has considered covid-19 vaccine. The vaccine candidates are all in different stages, and extraordinary progress is being made with the phase 3 5.30 pm clinical trials underway in the UK, the USA, India, Sitting adjourned. 29WS Written Statements 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Written Statements 30WS

In tandem, the joint review of intergovernmental Written Statements relations continues to progress with the devolved Administrations and the UK Government remain Tuesday 10 November 2020 committed to finalising a product at pace. These measures will complement any future structures at the outcome CABINET OFFICE of the review. Transparency of Intergovernmental Relations: Update [HCWS564]

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister TREASURY for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): Today, the Government are announcing new measures to improve Financial Services for the EEA: Ministerial Equivalence the transparency and accountability of relations between and Exemption Directions the UK Government and the devolved Administrations. We are taking these steps because the Government recognise that effective transparency, accountability and The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): parliamentary scrutiny of the Government’s participation The Equivalence Determinations for Financial Services in intergovernmental structures will support relationships and Miscellaneous Provisions (Amendment etc) (EU Exit) between the Government and devolved Administrations Regulations 2019 (S.I. 2019/541) provides powers for so that we work together effectively on behalf of citizens the Treasury to make equivalence directions and exemption across the UK. directions for the European Economic Area (“EEA”) states, including the member states of the European A new dedicated www.gov.uk page for intergovernmental Union (“EU”), before the end of the transition period. relations (IGR) has been created. On this website, all documents relating to IGR, including the memorandum I have today laid before Parliament eight directions of understanding on devolution, relevant documents which exercise the powers across an extensive range of and reports related to intergovernmental forums will be areas. The directions cover 16 equivalence decisions in published at timely intervals. This includes uploading total, which serve to maintain the stability and openness communiqués after each formal intergovernmental meeting of the UK financial services sector beyond the end of containing information on the date, location, chair, the transition period. participants and discussion points of meetings. This For the decisions below, it is both the legally binding collection will grow and evolve as we revise and strengthen requirements, and the effectiveness of the regulation our intergovernmental structures and conclude the review and supervision of adherence to these requirements in of intergovernmental relations. However,we are launching the EEA states, which have been deemed equivalent on the website today as we recognise the benefits of an outcomes basis. implementing new behaviours and good practice The European Market Infrastructure Regulation immediately to support parliamentary and public scrutiny (Article 13) Equivalence Directions 2020 determine that, of the UK Government’s participation in existing for the purposes of paragraphs 1 and 2(a) and (d), of intergovernmental forums. article 3 of the European market infrastructure regulation Our long-term strategy for strengthening transparency (intragroup transactions), the legal, supervisory and of IGR will involve publishing a quarterly report on enforcement arrangements of EEA states are equivalent this gov.uk page. This report will include a list of all to articles 4 and 11 of the European market infrastructure engagements for each forum, any resolved disputes and regulation, as it will form part of UK law at the end of their outcomes and associated third-party reports when the transition period (“EMIR”). This decision paves the relevant. The first report will be published in 2021. way for UK firms to seek or apply an exemption from On an annual basis, a report will be laid in both the requirement to clear through a CCP or meet margin Houses of Parliament by Command Paper. This will requirements for transactions with an EEA entity in the collate the key information from the quarterly reports, same group. The granting of this decision means these as well as include any written or service-level agreements exposures can qualify as intragroup exposures in the reached between Administrations over the reporting credit valuation adjustment (“CVA”) calculation, ensuring period, background information and a list of ministerial that UK firms will in many cases not have to capitalise CVA appearances before parliamentary committees. The on over the counter (“OTC”) exposures to EEA affiliates. Government also commit to making regular statements The Capital Requirements Regulation Equivalence to Parliament on IGR, including appearances before Directions 2020 determine that each EEA state (i) applies relevant committees when requested. prudential, supervisory and regulatory requirements The measures will not apply universally including equivalent to those applied in the UK, for the purposes where issues are commercially or market sensitive or of article 107(3) and 391 of the capital requirements matters of national security. They will not apply to the regulation as it will form part of UK law at the end of myriad regular official meetings or to informal bilateral the transition period (“CRR”); and (ii) applies supervisory discussions. and regulatory arrangements equivalent to those applied These measures apply to the participation of Ministers in the UK, for the purposes of articles 114(7), 115(4), 116(5), of the Crown in formal, intergovernmental structures 132(3) and 142(2) of CRR. For UK firms, equivalence and are intended to support Parliament’s capacity to here ensures they will not be subject to increased capital scrutinise intergovernmental relations. The measures do requirements as a result of their EEA exposures. not place any obligations on other Administrations The Solvency 2 Regulation Equivalence Directions to report to their legislatures, although they mirror the 2020 determine that for the purposes of Commission approaches taken by the Welsh and Scottish Governments. Delegated Regulation (EU) 2015/35 (supplementing the 31WS Written Statements 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Written Statements 32WS solvency II directive on the taking-up and pursuit of the The Short Selling Regulation Equivalence Directions business of insurance and reinsurance): (i) the solvency 2020 determine that EU markets are subject to the regime of each EEA state that applies to certain reinsurance appropriate law and supervision for the purposes of activities is equivalent to that laid down in the relevant article 17 the short selling regulation as it will form part UK law; (ii) the solo prudential regime of each EEA of UK law at the end of the transition period (“SSR”). state is equivalent to that laid down in the relevant UK This means that EEA market makers will be eligible to law; and (iii) the groups prudential regime of each EEA make use of the exemption in article 17 of SSR (which state is equivalent to that laid down in the relevant UK disapplies certain short selling restrictions and reporting law. In doing so, The Solvency 2 Regulation Equivalence requirements) subject to complying with certain regulatory Directions 2020 cover all three solvency II equivalence requirements. decisions, i.e. articles 378, 379 and 380 of the solvency II Alongside the above directions, today I am also laying regulation. Solvency II is an EU regime which will form beforeParliamentTheCentralCounterparties(Equivalence) part of retained EU law in the UK from 11pm on Regulations 2020 pursuant to regulation 14(1) of the 31 December 2020 (in accordance with the European Central Counterparties (Amendment, etc., and Transitional Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018) so that it continues to Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018 (S.I. 2018/1184). apply in the UK. The former statutory instrument specifies that the regulatory The European Market Infrastructure Regulation framework for central counterparties in EEA states is (Article 2A) Equivalence Directions 2020 determine equivalent to the UK’s framework. After the end of the that, for the purposes of article 2A of the EMIR, transition period, these regulations will have effect as if markets in each EEA state comply with legally binding made under article 25(6) of EMIR. Therefore, subject requirements which are equivalent to the requirements to entry into an appropriate co-operation arrangement laid down in UK law, and are subject to effective between the Bank of England and the relevant national supervision and enforcement in each such EEA state. competent authority in that EEA state, and a CCP-specific This will enable UK firms to continue to treat derivatives recognition determination by the Bank of England, traded on EEA regulated markets as exchange traded after the end of the transition period UK firms will be derivatives rather than OTC derivatives. Facilitating able to continue using EEA CCPs and to exit the this continuity for firms minimises the disruption they transitional regime contained in part 6 of The Central will experience following the end of the transition period. Counterparties (Amendment, etc., and Transitional The Central Securities Depositories Regulation Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018 (S.I. 2018/1184). Equivalence Directions 2020 determine that central The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial securities depositories (“CSDs”) in each EEA state Strategy will be laying The Statutory Auditors and comply with legal requirements which are equivalent to Third Country Auditors (Amendment) (EU Exit) (No. 2) the central securities depositories regulation as it will Regulations 2020 to grant audit equivalence to the EEA form part of UK law at the end of the transition period states and approve as adequate their audit competent (“CSDR”) and are appropriately supervised in the relevant authorities. EEA state. With equivalence granted, the Bank of England To provide clarity and stability to industry, we are can then assess CSDs in the EEA for recognition (subject announcing as many decisions as we can in favour of to establishing co-operation arrangements with the relevant openness, and where it makes sense to do so. The granting EEA authorities), allowing those CSDs, once recognised, of these equivalence decisions provides a broad range to continue to service UK securities and to exit the of benefits in terms of having open markets that are transitional regime contained in onshored article 69 well regulated, facilitating firms’ ability to pool and CSDR and part 5 of The Central Securities Depositories manage risks effectively, and supporting UK and EU (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018. clients’ access to financial services and market liquidity. The Benchmarks Regulation Equivalence Directions [HCWS567] 2020 determine that benchmark administrators in each EEA state comply with legal requirements which are equivalent to the benchmarks regulation as it will apply in UK law at the end of the transition period (“BMR”), DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT and are appropriately supervised in the relevant EEA state. This equivalence decision acts as a mechanism to Public Service Broadcasting and the Licence Fee enable such administrators to be added to the FCA’s Settlement benchmarks register, and to enable them to provide benchmarks to supervised entities in the UK. The Credit Rating Agencies Regulation Equivalence The Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Directions 2020 determine that, for the purposes of Sport (Oliver Dowden): There is an increasing consensus article 5 of the credit rating agencies regulation as it will that the UK’s system of public service broadcasting form part of UK law at the end of the transition period (PSB) needs to evolve if it is to transition successfully to (“CRAR”), the legal and supervisory framework of the internet era. That is why today the Government are each EEA state ensures that credit rating agencies (“CRAs”) announcing a new advisory panel to provide independent authorised or registered in each EEA state (i) comply expertise and advice on this important issue. The panel with legally binding requirements which are equivalent will bring together representatives from the worlds of to the requirements resulting from CRAR; and (ii) are broadcasting, production, journalism and technology; subject to effective supervision and enforcement in each and, it will support the Government in responding to such EEA state. This means non-systemic credit rating Ofcom’s forthcoming report on the future of public agencies authorised or registered in the EEA can apply service broadcasting. The full terms of reference and to be certified in the UK. membership of the panel are available from gov.uk. 33WS Written Statements 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Written Statements 34WS

One vital issue that will proceed separately is the In the interest of transparency, alongside this statement negotiation with the BBC and S4C, the Welsh-language we are publishing on gov.uk the formal commissioning broadcaster, regarding the next television licence fee letters to the BBC and S4C. We will also publish future settlement. We are now formally beginning this process correspondence where appropriate. I will ensure that to agree the level of the licence fee from 2022. To aid in Parliament is informed of the outcome of the discussions our assessment of the appropriate level and to ensure with the BBC and S4C, and expect to lay my determination we come to a settlement which offers the best value for before the House to allow time for parliamentary debate money for licence fee payers, I have formally requested before the settlement takes effect in 2022. the BBC and S4C to provide the Government with [HCWS566] specific financial information, as required under the BBC’s royal charter. HOME DEPARTMENT It is also the first settlement where S4C will receive Report of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual full funding from the licence fee. S4C will be following Abuse: Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales the same process as the BBC.

As I have set out previously, the BBC is a world-class The Secretary of State for the Home Department broadcaster, trusted and recognised across the globe. (Priti Patel): Today the Independent Inquiry into Child However, to ensure its long-term sustainability in a Sexual Abuse has published its latest report, which can rapidly changing digital world it must also continue to be found at www.iicsa.org.uk. reform. The Government’spriority is a BBC that affordably This report relates to its investigation into the extent delivers its mission and public purposes; that truly of any institutional failures to protect children from reflects the whole nation in its activities and content; sexual abuse within the Roman Catholic Church in and that guards its impartiality in all of its output. England and Wales. I pay tribute to the strength and To reflect the Government’s priorities, I am asking the courage of the victims and survivors who have shared BBC to set out its financial information as far as their experiences to ensure the inquiry can deliver its possible in line with its public purposes. I have asked the vital work. BBC to consider in particular how it can maximise its The Government will review this report and consider commercial revenues and continue to make savings. I how to respond to its content in due course. have also asked the BBC to include in its submission an I would like to thank Professor Jay and her panel for assessment of the impact of the licence fee for those on their continued work to uncover the truth, identify what the lowest income, including details of any further plans went wrong in the past and to learn the lessons for the to support those in vulnerable groups, including the elderly. future. [HCWS565]

13P Petitions 10 NOVEMBER 2020 Petitions 14P

Observations from the Minister for Crime and Policing Petition (Kit Malthouse): In making her decision, announced on 31 October Tuesday 10 November 2020 2016, not to establish a public inquiry into the policing of events at Orgreave on 18 June 1984, the then Home Secretary Amber Rudd carefully considered a submission OBSERVATIONS from the Orgreave Truth and Justice Campaign (OTJC). As was made clear in the written statement (HCWS227) HOME DEPARTMENT made to the House that day, in determining whether or not to establish a statutory inquiry or other review, the Inquiry into policing at the Orgreave coking plant, then Home Secretary considered a number of factors, 18 June 1984 reviewed a range of documents, carefully scrutinised The petition of residents of the constituency of Easington, the arguments contained in the OTJC’s submission and Declares that the UK Government has a responsibility spoke to its members and other campaign supporters to investigate properly the behaviour of the police at the —including the then Shadow Home Secretary Andy Orgreave coking plant miners’ strike on 18 June 1984; Burnham. She subsequently concluded that neither an further declares that it fails this responsibility with its inquiry nor a review was required, for the reasons set decision on 31 October 2016 not to order an inquiry out in her statement to the House. into the policing of the strike; further declares that the The Government remain of the view there would be silence of the UK Government on this issue is irreconcilable very few lessons for the policing system today to be with Scotland and Wales, where the Scottish Parliament learned from any review of the events and practices completed its own review in February 2019 into the of over three decades ago. The policing landscape has policing of the Miners’ Strike in Scotland and the Welsh changed fundamentally since 1984—at the political, Assembly continues to call for a review; and further legislative and operational levels—as has the wider criminal declares that, until a light can be shone on the government justice system. This is a very important consideration when participation and police operations during the Miners’ looking at the necessity for an inquiry or independent Strike 1984-85, and specifically on 18 June 1984 at review and the public interest to be derived from holding Orgreave, this historic injustice will continue to fuel one. public unrest at the lack of accountability of the state. The Government believe that the focus should be on The petitioners therefore request that the House of continuing to ensure that the policing system is the best Commons urge the Government to take into account it can be for South Yorkshire and across the country. the concerns of the petitioners and review its decision This Government have introduced a number of reforms not to order an independent inquiry into the policing at to improve the accountability and transparency of policing, the Orgreave coking plant on 18 June 1984; and to including those in the Policing and Crime Act 2017 to consider afresh the legal submission presented to the strengthen the police discipline and complaints systems Home Secretary by the Orgreave Truth and Justice and create the Independent Office for Police Conduct. Campaign in 2015. Taking all these factors into account, the Government And the petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Grahame continue to believe that establishing any kind of inquiry Morris, Official Report, 21 October 2020; Vol. 682, into the policing of the events at Orgreave in 1984, or of c. 1178.] the miners’ strike of 1984-85, is not in the wider public [P002615] interest or required for any other reason.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 10 November 2020

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL STRATEGY— STRATEGY ...... 711 continued Covid-19: Business Sectors...... 716 Net Zero Emissions Target...... 722 Covid-19 Lockdown: Business Support ...... 715 Retail Sector: Covid-19 ...... 719 Covid-19: Support for Businesses...... 720 Self-employed People: Covid-19...... 711 Covid-19: Support for Businesses...... 724 Sizewell C Nuclear Power Station: Dismiss and Re-engage Tactics ...... 717 Government Scrutiny...... 722 Innovation and New Technologies ...... 715 Topical Questions ...... 725 Manufacturing Sector ...... 712 Young Enterprise: Government Support...... 714 Marine Renewable Energy ...... 721 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 10 November 2020

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 29WS HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 34WS Transparency of Intergovernmental Relations: Report of the Independent Inquiry into Child Update...... 29WS Sexual Abuse: Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales ...... 34WS

DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 32WS TREASURY ...... 30WS Public Service Broadcasting and the Licence Fee Financial Services for the EEA: Ministerial Settlement...... 32WS Equivalence and Exemption Directions ...... 30WS PETITION

Tuesday 10 November 2020

Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 13P Inquiry into policing at the Orgreave coking plant, 18 June 1984 ...... 13P No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 17 November 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 683 Tuesday No. 132 10 November 2020

CONTENTS

Tuesday 10 November 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 711] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy

Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment [Col. 731] Answer to urgent question—(Jeremy Quin)

Covid-19 Update [Col. 744] Statement—(Matt Hancock)

Jet Skis (Licensing) [Col. 767] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Hywel Williams)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill [Col. 770] Programme motion (No. 2)—(Mr Rees-Mogg)—agreed to Lords amendments considered

Forensic Science Regulator and Biometrics Strategy Bill (Money) [Col. 832] Motion—(Kit Malthouse)—agreed to

Exiting the European Union (Merchant Shipping) [Col. 833] Motion—(Rachel Maclean)—agreed to

Exiting the European Union (Agriculture) [Col. 837] Motion—(Edward Argar)—agreed to

Committee on Standards [Col. 843] Motion—(Mr Rees-Mogg) Amendment—(Valerie Vaz)—on a Division, negatived Motion agreed to

Petition [Col. 866]

Safety and Littering: A34 and A420 [Col. 867] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Obesity: Covid-19 [Col. 299WH] Probate Registry Service [Col. 324WH] Support for SMEs: Covid-19 [Col. 331WH] Online Scams [Col. 357WH] Covid-19 Vaccine [Col. 364WH]

Written Statements [Col. 29WS]

Petition [Col. 13P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]