Transcript Lou Cope talks to CARLOS ACOSTA Feb 2021

Lou: Hi, Carlos, thank you so much for joining me. How are you doing?

Carlos: Fine, fine, thank you for inviting me.

Lou: Oh it's a real pleasure. It's really nice to see you. So, I guess you're not at home. You're talking to me from a place that has decent internet. Is that right?

Carlos: That's right. That's right. We live in a valley that had no, amazingly, had no optical cable, you know, it doesn't matter how much we try, but anyway, it's very unsustainable.

Lou: Wow, I don't suppose you knew when you moved in quite how important optical cables would be in your future life. Ho-hum maybe it's a good thing, maybe it's a good thing that it's not there. So, yeah, I understand you spent the first lockdown actually in your lovely Somerset home and I'm imagining that this lock down is a bit different for you because things are waking up at BRB and things are getting a bit more hectic.

Is that right?

Carlos: That's right. I mean the entire lockdown, you know, it's been a nightmare for, for everyone and, you know, I mean, we managed well during the Fall, last Fall we managed to put some shows on stage, but about now we should have been touring Cinderella, and obviously that got canceled and you know, we're looking realistically for the summer and see what happens, you know, hopefully in the summer we'll be able to go, on stage and with an audience, even if we need social distance, which is what we want. Where we belong.

Lou: Okay. So that's the hope for the socially distanced audiences in the summer?

Carlos: Yes. Yeah, that's what we are striving for. We got two World Premieres that we're going to be working on and one UK Premiere and Cinderella as well. And simultaneously, we’re having ideas to, again, keep, keep, producing digital pieces as well because you know, it's, it's going to be very important going forward to have that digital presence but, yeah, it's hopefully from now on, you know, we'll have a plan that we can, as a sector execute and carry on, you know, back, keep it go back on course. And me, as a director, being able to finally deliver my vision of the Company.

Lou: Yeah. I was thinking about that. So, you started your job as director of Birmingham Royal in January 2020, which is hilarious, really, you know, a matter of hours before COVID took its hold, so I'm not going to ask you if you regret taking the job, nor if it's been a difficult year but I'm assuming from what you say that actually some quite positive things have come out of it as well for you and for the team and the Company and certainly, you've got to know each other quite quickly. Are there positives for you that you'll take forward?

Carlos: One thing that is really positive is the fact that I've been at home and for my kids, I’ve got three kids. The four-year olds are twins and then our eldest is nine years old. Ideally, I would have been traveling and I would have been on tour or dancing or something so my time at home would have been limited but now, you know it's just been wonderful to spend time with them. To give them this, this really crucial time in their development where the Wolf pack is together.

I think that that was brilliant, you know, and just relying on each other and spending time with each other. So, it's been great. The other thing that has been very positive is how, as a Company, we had to rely on, you know, being connected online, and this is something that I wanted to do anyway, but the whole of the pandemic has been accelerating that process.

And so, we had to shift everything quickly online and therefore restructure the digital sector of the Company. And that has been great because, you know, we are gathering now more experience for streaming. We have been able to also have some income that way as well. And I think this is something that, going forward as well, we're going to continue. So, I think that that is a positive thing as well.

Lou: Great. Yeah. Okay. Of course, you have your own Company, Acosta Danza back home in, in Cuba. I can only imagine that things are incredibly difficult there for them, and that it's really hard for you to be so, so long away from there.

How are things there?

Carlos: Now in Cuba it’s very, very, tough because, you know, we don't have the system in place, like here in England that you could just order via internet, anything you want and then bring it home. So, for food, it’s very challenging, you need to get stuck in the queue, get stuck in the queue for hours.

There’s little food at the moment. The government implemented these monetary reforms, that it costs, a big, big inflation and then Cuba basically has no money actually now and obviously the pandemic cases, the cases keep raising and raising. Cuba is an Island, obviously and, you’re almost like stuck.

And, well the whole world is like that, you can’t go anywhere anyway, but, but I think it's been very challenging for my dancers. We were on the [venue] performing and all of a sudden, you know, we had to be, we got sent home and it’s just really hard mentally, to keep the spirit going.

And you prepare to do something, then they close it down and then you don't know when you're going to deliver it: that creation. We were in the middle of a creation in Cuba. And obviously that you know, it didn't happen and we don't know when it's going to happen now. So, all of that, I think in Cuba in general it’s very tough. Lou: Yeah, I can only imagine, and it must be really hard for you not to be able to go back there and share in some of that or support them, you know, close up.

Carlos: Very difficult. Here and every-where you can connect with other people in zoom, via zoom and all of that but Cuba is one of the worst countries in the world. So, zoom doesn't work in there. So, you know, I can’t even have a meeting or see them regularly. We have to just WhatsApp or, you know, it’s just really tough and, I, you know, they are like family to me and you know, I'm just, I feel very unable to do anything for them. So, we just have to wait.

Lou: The end can't come soon enough eh?

Carlos: No that’s right. That's right. but we'll see, hopefully. Hopefully, you know, there are all the vaccines happening and all of that, you know, hopefully at least will give you, bring us some confidence and at least, you know, and governments that allow the theatre to get back on, on its feet again.

Lou: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, there is hope isn't there, there is light. Okay. Well, your, your background in Cuba is well documented. I have to say, I think you're my first guest to have written an autobiography and had a movie made of it. So that's pretty cool. Well done! Nicely done!

Your initial journey from your family home outside , where money was tight and things were tough, I think it's fair to say. And your, initial unwilling rise to the top tier of ballet, it's a, you know, an amazing story. I'm interested in how your background influences your relationship with ballet and the privilege of it all.

How does it, how does it make you feel as you work through the, as you've worked through the hierarchy? Actually, I have two questions for you. What was it that you, what was it that you fell in love with about ballet and what is it that you love and also what don't you love? So, first of all, what is it that you love about ballet?

Carlos: I always like the sports. I wanted to be a football player growing up and so I didn't care so much about ballet, but, when I really realized what it was, it was, well, basically it was like being a sportsman you know, that level of athleticism, it’s in the way that they carry the women with one hand, all of that. The way, the ability to jump really high and do all these acrobatic steps. I love that very much and I also love music because, you know, in the eighties, I was into the sort of breakdancing scene. I love Michael Jackson’s music a lot and, and so, little by little, again, the fact that dancing, you know, with music and having that sports quality to, to ballet, I think that that's what did it for me. And also, because I’ve always been very, eh, quick in learning movement, you know, I was, I could catch any kind of dances quite rapidly. So, ballet wasn’t an exception. And then I began to get praise early on from my teachers who mentioned how talented I was.

And then obviously I was very shy, I was a very insecure kid and every time I perform or I dance, you know, people received that and welcomed that with an applause. And I liked that being applauded because it was a way of being noticed, of being somebody and I liked that very much. And so, at some point, it was a breaking point for me, when I was 13, that I saw the National Ballet of Cuba for the first time. I saw the professionals and I saw what they did and I thought that it was pretty cool. And then I said, “okay I really want to give my very, very best to become the best I could be”. And that proved to be a revelation for me and life- changing for me and for my family.

Lou: Yeah and I understand - so that’s your own personal, you grew to love your own power within it or your own potential within it…

What about the actual, the story that it tells, and the whole world of it? What is it about that, that you grew to love?

Carlos: I, I like- in the beginning it was very basic obviously, but then when you become professional and you become into… you’re submerged in terms of the repertory of ballet, you know, which is the storytelling, a fairy tale, story tales, all of that. And then you go deeper into a repertory and then you'll discover the repertory, like the Macmillan repertory, the Aston repertory, which is again much more about the psychology, the dark psychology of human kind. And then you start to really come about … or in my case being an actor, true to what you're trying to put out and trying to establish a connection with an audience for different layers. Beyond the boundaries of physicality or musicality, but also capture their imagination by impersonating a character that you're not in real life.

I love that. I love the fact that every time I go to, to a dressing room or I'm about to perform, I have to wear makeup. I have to embody somebody else I’m not in real life, and that changes every time, you know. Sometimes you're the Prince in , the next time you are somebody completely different.

The next time you are a barber, a penniless barber the next time. So, I love that. I love, I love it and for me, that has been crucial. When I realized that I could be much more than a dancer so that I can actually be an actor that connects. I move people through my dancing, which is a different way to, to perceive, you know, the, the dancing career.

I, I love that and still that motivates me all, all with me, what can I do so that I can reinvent myself? How can I be bringing, bring that, again? People say “Oh, wow, look at this. This is different.”. So being, always trying to not be predictable, I'm trying to bring something new and fresh. And I love that.

And I think the audience connect with that as well. You know, I always try to bring something new and have that people say “Wow, really?” So, I love that.

Lou: Yeah. Yeah, me too. And for me, that's, what's most exciting is when the body and the theater and the thinking come together to, to tell stories or to move audiences. And I think that was obviously, yeah, what, what you're known for is the synthesis of that. Okay. And what do you not love about ballet and the ballet world?

Carlos: [What, what I most resent, in my beginning, was the loneliness that this world submerged me, you know, that, that it was very tricky. And I thought that that was a very high price to pay. And, it gave me a lot of doubts. At some point I even was considering not coming back because I was really lonely. Already my, my loneliness started at the age of nine when I began to go into the ballet school. I had to get two, three buses to, to make it finally to the school, from where I was living.

And at the age of nine, I had to make that journey alone and then back again. And then to come to terms, to, to, to watch the parents at the end of the class, being there and collect their kids, like I do with my kids now, to collect their kids from the school, and bring them home. I didn't have that. I had to do it on my own while watching everybody else have that luxury, well it was a luxury for me. Most of the time, on the journeys, I used to be hanging out from the buses, you know, because it was like a fight, a constant battle, trying to catch a bus. The bus will run past the bus stop and then you have to run and chase the bus and then, you know, stopping a block away and then you chase madly to catch it and you were leaning, you know, outside the doors. I mean, it was a constant battle and I did it when I was nine years old. And then, and then all of that, then obviously what happened to my father, that he was in jail for two years and my mother was ill. And then ultimately when I was 13, they kicked me out from the school and I had to go to a boarding school in Rio.

And while I was there for two years, I never, I never received a visit for my parents. So, I hated that. I hated that I was alone all the time, forced to dance or to do something that I didn't want to do in the first place. I didn't make that choice myself consciously and willingly. It was being imposed on me.

And then, you know, later on again, I began to travel and travel was on my own with the ruck side, from here to Houston, to London, back to, you know, London again and all around the world, trying to, you know, become, a sort of a name for myself or something. So, the downside that has been the downside, but I think I'm right in saying that you know, this is the price that most artists pay anyway, because I think, in that you, you sort of need it to give you the fuel and give you the creativity and the food for creation. Then when you are embodying a character you have all the sorrows, all these, eh, personal experiences that you can just throw into that role or into your paint or into your music, all these demons.

So, there is that kind of fine line. That, that the arts, the dancers, the artists have to live. That, that is something that they feed from, from that, you know, and to me, that was very beneficial. Also, it gives you, it makes your mind very strong. It gives you resilience. It gives you a purpose as well.

I mean, to me, that’s why I had to, I had to sometimes be careful in the advice that I give to young people, because I give that advice as coming from my life experience but my life experience, it was very hard and there was a lot of pain and I don't wish anybody that pain. I don't, I certainly don’t wish it on my kids.

So that's why for me dance, it became much more than a job. It was an existence, it was survival, it was my church and it was a relationship that was so strong. So, whenever somebody asks me “What your advice is?”, you know, I have to be careful because obviously I came from a survival perspective, which again, completely reshapes your life. And so, to me I think that that was the downside, just the loneliness that I had to go through.

Lou: And you're right, for better or worse, it breeds resilience doesn't it?

And you’re also right, I see it in other dancers and actually that resilience has been tested lately hasn’t it for everybody? But there's a certain sort of independence and resilience I think that I see in dancers. They have to take care of their bodies. They have to take care of their minds and they have to survive. And obviously your circumstances were perhaps unusual and extreme, but I guess ultimately, it's got you where you are today somehow.

Carlos: Yeah, no, definitely. I think that, so, you know, if you would have asked me, what would you change, you know, going to the past, if you had to do it all over again.

I wouldn't change anything because I am very happy now. I am, I'm living a fairytale, you know, and I'm somebody, you know, who let myself be helped, but I used my skills and my time wisely. I endured all I had to endure and at the end I came out the other side victorious, you know that's what I think, you know. I learned because I was so low in, in, eh, you know, in my life, that the only way was going to be up. But also, you are fearless.

That's why I wrote. That's why, you know, a lot of people discouraged me saying “you're crazy, you're supposed to be a dancer. Why are you thinking about all this?” And I'm going to be doing whatever I want to be doing that satisfies my curiosity for whoever cares to listen out there or to connect with. But I'm, while I'm still around, alive, I'm going to go and satisfy my search of evolving and learning and being …of the curiosity I have.

I tried to sing one day, I remember, but that was a catastrophe! It was terrible and then I realized, and I actually, I was so convinced like anything, I throw myself on anything, being convinced that I can do this. I can do, you know, I'm going to be disciplined, I’m going to, you know, put myself through the ethics and at the end I'm going to persevere. But in music I did try and I got so depressed at that and say “wow, I am rubbish at this! I’m terrible. I can't sing!” And there was a lot of people saying “well, this is what we’ve been trying to tell you for a long time”, but, you know, it's just that journey or using your…. I realize that growing up, I was at a disadvantage in comparison with a lot of people, because I never had a guide. We didn't come from a cultural background. Nobody had ever given me a book growing up or read to me to go to bed so that I, I‘d grow up with the magic of books. Nobody. I didn't have that guidance. And I realized, I mean, my first book I read when I was 25 and I thought, wow, I had to catch up a lot because I really, I know nothing about the world.

And so, I realized that, that, that, you know, there was so much for me that I was missing that if I wanted to be a great dancer, I had to, first and foremost, know how the world works. Who were there before me? Why Nijinsky is important and all of that and began to go beyond that as well, to make sense and make the conclusions that I needed to, to become an artist and then have something to say creatively as well. So that's why I throw myself in all these worlds, of, of everything, you know, that I could to, to learn including singing. But … Lou: is there some dodgy YouTube clip somewhere of you giving a little performance? Singing?

Carlos: No, No, That! I don't think I will share that.

Lou: That can be your little secret.

Okay so the next challenge then. Your most recent challenge that you've thrown yourself into, is of course your role as director at the and so let's look forward. Obviously, hopefully the world is going to open up soon and you're going to be able to do what it is you set out to do there.

I wanted to ask you what your personal hopes are for opening up barriers to access for performers and audiences. Diversifying the people we see both on stage and in productions in the ballet world and also diversifying the stories that are told. What do you hope to do in your time at BRB? And what do you hope to open up?

Carlos: Well, first of all, Birmingham, is a city that, well, obviously I don't know that well. I’ve performed many times in Birmingham but in terms of community, I don't, I don't know that well. So, I engage, I've been engaged all year round with a lot of people from that community from different works of art and institutions, just to see, you know, what, how as a Company we're being perceived in the community and all of that and see, what, what can we bring?

Obviously, the challenge is that the ballet world is another… it’s very, very old. It's one of the earliest forms of dance in terms of when we think about artistic form vocabulary of dance and it speaks, most of it speaks about the past. You know, you have Swan Lake, which is a Prince that falls in love with a swan. All of that narrative but it's a brilliant vocabulary and everything, but we had to move it into today and try to come up with stories that are more representative today.

But to me, it's also a balance for people to understand also the value of history as well and also in the context of ballet. You know, we had to, we had to do Swan Lake. We had to bring Swan Lake every so often because that's, that's our starting point. That's what we did. You, you have, that's the kind of ballet that trains your body and your classical technique, because we are a classical, you know, like Ballet Company, which is, it has this kind of idiom you know, vocabulary that are very set pretty much. But it's also, you know, to understand what people, would like to see from us, and, and also work with them. But at the same time, challenge them and try to make them, for those who are ready to, to appreciate the world of Tchaikovsky and all this wonderful music that did wonders to me. And that, you know, somebody that's coming from Cuba, who likes Salsa and also break dancing. I am a man of my, my, my world, of my generation. I am a common man, which again, the world is very globalized. So, you have to, you know, you have your heritage, you have your starting point, who you are as an individual, but then also there is a world that you also live and that you’re part of and so you try to understand, you know, eh, everything else that comes from that world, including classical, including everything else. So, it’s just, just trying to challenge people to open their horizon as well, and trying to give ballet a chance because sometimes there is a stigma attached to ballet that, I said this yesterday, its white, its tights, which I think, you know, it shouldn't be and it’s not. It wasn't for me anyway.

And in fact, it's a magical world. But a lot of people, they just don't give that world a chance, because whatever, they already think that that’s what it is. So, it's just to work with people, trying to engage in the community, trying to have the debate. For me, it's very useful to have debates, to, to understand, you know, from people, how they see us, and also to give them an indication of where are we going to and what we're working towards.

But we can only survive if people engage themselves and support this wonderful institution, which is a Birmingham Institution. And, and, you know, that's also what I'm trying to bring to the table as well, how lucky Birmingham is to even have a ballet company of first rate. So, people, most people, have to go to Paris Opera, you got to go to London, you got to go to…., but if you are in Birmingham, you don't have to, because you’ve got the Birmingham Royal Ballet there in your front step. And now with me, I'm going to bring the best of the world here, but you should equally engage and go out and play ball, you know, and say “Wow, how exciting I'm going to go and support that!” Because we’re going to be fusing, we're going to be teaming up with a lot of people with the community, but it only has relevance if people take notice and go and support us. So that kind of a dialogue, I hope that I can bring to the community and at the same time, you know, my wishes for the Company to become an ambassador of this nation worldwide and an ambassador for Birmingham definitely.

And keep the level rising. I'm going to bring guests, the best dancers in the world to Birmingham to work with us. And I think that works very well also for our dancers, that we're able to see all the ways to do Swan Lake and all the classics and being able to train with these amazing stars that otherwise they will not have the pleasure to share the stage with.

I want to work with because, obviously and the Royal Ballet School as well, because it’s the Royal trilogy, which again, you know, we are sister companies. The Royal Ballet is part of my story, a big part of my story. So, I want to be able to bring the Company to the stage regularly. Those things collectively. So, it's a lot of, lot of ambition right there, but, I think, you know, hopefully, we, we go back again on the stage where we belong and we can, I can go, you know, back on course to deliver that ambition.

Lou: Yeah. It's exciting to hear you talk about the community and the grassroots and the importance of that dialogue, as well as obviously, you know, working at the top of the game and bringing amazing people in.

And do you have hopes to help those two worlds meet each other?

Carlos: Eh which worlds?

Lou: Sorry, you know that you're working with the communities in Birmingham and trying to open ballet up to them. And so, will you try to find ways to get them, obviously to see the work, the top flight work, but also to be involved in conversations more?

Carlos: Yes, definitely. There is a lot, a lot a conversation that we should have. There is a lot of things that I am confused about. You know, what we're trying to talk about, works that, it speaks about yesterday or, or the people find perhaps not representative enough. So, there's a lot of confusion that I, myself, I'm confused, because in my head I never understand, you know, that, that it was that way at all.

But you know, there is a lot of conversation to have about that and also just for them to understand where the Birmingham Royal Ballet is heading. All the many titles and the many things that we're going to be doing, which again is completely “Now.” And it’s relevant and it’s everything. But we have to do Swan Lake. We have to do Nutcracker. We had to. You know, this is us as well. And if I am going to do a new title to the ballet, where I will use the technology, the possibilities that today’s offering us, so that we could have a voice and you then could have Swan Lake. You have this Ballet that we created and you see the difference; that's yesterday, and that's us with all the technology, whether it is er…. reality, how you say…. ??anyway

Lou: Naturalism you mean, or?

Carlos: No the technology? I can't remember the name, what projection or fusing, I'm bringing …

Lou: Ah Virtual reality maybe?

Carlos: Virtual reality! All of that. So, you could bring all of this technology that, again, it speaks about who we are today and the many possibilities.

So, you will have completely two different aesthetics but, you know, I don't see the need for not projecting a lot of work that have been in the past because some people might be offensive about it. And this is something that increasingly has been gaining ground in the world of the Art.

And I just want to talk about that and see how people think and get some ideas without hypocrisy on the table, and understand. I know there is that narrative that, that a lot of, you know, work again in the past, it might be offensive towards cultures and offensive to other people, but I’ve never been offended by anything, because I accept that it's, it's not Society, it's not reality, it’s make-believe. The world of Art is infinite and it comes from different angles and it has to do with your personal experience and how you react to it. But the work of the Art is there for you to react. And if it speaks with you offensively, then don't, don't pay it.

But if you don't, but there are other people that don't come from the same angle and the same perspective. So, if you react to it and that's the truth, your truth, that's Your Truth. And then you might say, well, I don't consume it, but don't try to say to all the, all the people that would come from other way, that that is the truth, because it's Your Truth. Other people might see it completely differently. And so, there is a lot of confusions in the world of Art. Trying to put the morals and a lot of the ethics of society, which isn’t realism, its tangible into the world of Art, which is a completely different world, which has to do with so many, so many meanings, so many, you know, conceptualisms, you know, I mean it could be anything. The world of Art is anything, I mean, to start, you know, you got narrative like you're falling in love with a swan in the first place! What is that? That, that's not real, it's never going to be real. So, I mean, that's, that's our world.

So, I think we should be light about that, lighter. And so, accepting that and you know, I keep hearing that some of the Works that I grew up with, that they are fantastic , they, they’re no longer on the stage, that they can't find it live on stage anymore. And I'm like, but five years before it's been alright, everyone was fine.

And it was not offensive and people were, but now there are these ideas planted in people that people are looking at from that perspective. So, and that sometimes that idea that you plant in people and say “look at it from this angle” is what I'm most worried about, because then we're going to go down that way from looking from that particular angle, we're not going to have anything because where does it end? But you know, it, it shouldn't be from that angle. The people have to have the freedom to just say “I want to come from this angle,” but it seems like now people who say, “I don't see it that way, I see it that way”. It’s a big problem for whoever is seeing it differently. And then anyway, I don't know, it's all a debate. It's a healthy thing to say. I have something to say about that as well. And I, I just, I need help from that perspective to see because I am confused myself as well you know. I don't know what people want, people that want to do it, who want to come about it from a different angle, what they thinking. So, for me to understand where they’re coming from because I'm a bit confused.

Lou: OK. Sounds like that'd be some interesting dialogue. But I think, you know, so I hear what you're saying, that you want to treasure the old stories and treasure everything that's important and beautiful about them, but we are living through a time where people are seeking and demanding, more, greater representation in different spaces. And it's in ballet's interest, isn't it to, to try to open itself up to, to, to bring new voices, new stories in, so I guess you want everything really? You want to keep the old classics going. You want to find exciting new work that opens up who ballet can speak to and of, and also do that with the communities that you are surrounded by, which sounds like a big job, but a very exciting job.

I wanted to ask you about women in the Industry and so specifically female choreographers and dancers. Do you think enough opportunities are being created for them? Is there more that we can do there?

Carlos: I think, you know, if you’re looking from, if you look at, you know from the time that I was actively dancing to now, I think diversity is on the top of everybody’s agenda.

And I think that diversity is a wonderful thing, you know. People, people that gather around from different works of the world, you know different genders and everything, a big group of people that represent the world today to collectively create the work of art. Collectively.

And when you look at the stage, you see that world represented. And I think everybody now, you know, are looking for female choreographers all the time. I myself, you know, every time I go into a program, I always make sure that diversity, is at the top of, of the agenda. And this is great. It's great that you have talent, like Daniela Cardim that, you know, are making the, the headlines and, you know, they, they really bringing a lot of stuff and, you know, as you know, we, we can’t wait until, you know, we go back and she's going to do this amazing creation for us, that you've been working with. So, you know, xxx as well, which we are about to commission, you know, big development. I mean, it's just been great, but all the companies around the world, I think diversity is a wonderful thing, you know? And I, it's, it's a great thing that The Arts Council is approaching companies like ourselves to deliver diversity and I think that's great because I remember when I came into directing, I like, I went from the perspective I like what I like, and it doesn't matter where it comes from. You know, I, I liked that work. I like MacMillan and I liked Kylian because of the work itself. So, you would just concentrate on the work regardless of where it has come from.

But now when you say no, no, no, we have to also give chances to others then you open up your mind and say, okay, all right. And it's healthy because obviously, you know, you have a lot of talent out there that you’re discovering. You give, you open the door to all those starting to, you know, get in the limelight. Whereas before it was just about what you knew and what you liked.

So, now I think that that is that it makes a massive change it, and also you see young people, young female choreographers, or, you know, people from different background who really say, wow, there is a way for me. So, I might as well make a career of this and there are more people enlisting themselves and I encourage to be a choreographer. So, I think it's wonderful thing.

Lou: Great. Let's talk about your journey then from dancer to choreographer. They're not the same job at all, are they? Obviously, you make contemporary dance, you make ballet. I wanted to ask you about how that journey has been for you. How have you adapted to the role of choreographer?

Carlos: Yeah. And I'm not somebody who is a choreographer by, by office or by trade. You know, I don't make a living out of choreographing, like, you know, choreographers like, Christopher Wheeldon or Wayne McGregor or, and you know, Will Tuckett you know, they are first and foremost choreographers, that's how they make their living.

To me, just like a writer, I wrote two books, but I'm not going to make a career of it. You know, it was just that kind of, I want to have this project and I'm going to go all the way and I see it through and I deliver it and then whenever I have another idea for another project, you know. So, I think that that that's the difference. I had an idea, again, like I did with books, I had an idea to just choreograph, something, for an evening. I wrote a show called Tocororo in 2002, and then it was a big hit. I brought it for The Sadler’s Wells. It was a big hit. It was kind of like a Cuban extravaganza loosely based on the story of my life.

And then from that, I, I saw a chance to choreograph a major Ballet, , for the Royal Opera House because, they scrapped that production, the production, the production, the one from Nureyev, that I perform, I think, last. I think in 2001 was the last time that we perform it. And then for 11 years we didn't have that Ballet in the repertoire and it's a very important Ballet because it just didn't work, the previous production. So, I saw an opportunity there too, and I put it forward. I said “I can make you a Don Quixote” and I did. It was a great hit and it's still active and, you know, in, in the Company. But from, you know, from 2002 to you know, when I choreographed it in 2012, plus like 10 years when I choreographed something again, and then I did the same with Carmen, which, that was my retirement.

And I'm going to carry on choreographing, but I mean for me, I work based on ideas. I have this idea and I see it visually how I'm going to come up with and how I'm going to tell the story. And I say I can do something good with this but if somebody comes to me and says, “Can you do this? Can you do that? Here's the music. Can you do that?” I probably could do it, but it has to come from me kind of stuff. I have to see it in my mind that it's going to work. Yeah, that's, that is how it’s been and that's how it is different from somebody who choreographs something and all of that, but first and foremost, is a choreographer.

Lou: Do you have plans then for things you want to make in the future?

Carlos: Yes, I, I want to make a Romeo and Juliet for Acosta Danza and I want to place the play in Havana. And I'm going to work with Havana peculiarities, the police, Havana police and I want to base it in the courtyard.

In Havana there are a few of these courtyards where it's surrounded by families. Kind of like a Favela type, but Favela is not quite the right word, but so I want to play these two families rival, in placing in this Havana Sola, you know? And then, and then also the play’s about, you know, Julietta is just a girl that is going to have a, a spiritual ceremony, you know, the Afro- Cuban Yoruba religion. So, every time you receive the God’s Blessing, there is a party that you do, all dressed in white and a lot of Bata drums and you receive these, all these ceremonies, and so the rivals, you know, Romeo and Benvolio, they, they sneak in into that and that's how they meet instead of the ballroom.

And I'm going to recreate all the music and play some drums. And, you know, I have a very good idea how, how I want to go and place the play in Havana. And so that, that probably would be my next creation. And then lastly, I would love to bring another creation for the Birmingham Royal Ballet in the Season 24, 25. So that’s it.

Lou: Okay. So, you won’t make anything for BRB till then?

Carlos: Yeah, no. Cause, I think I've been very busy in trying to bring people and trying to navigate, I've been very busy in my head, I can’t find more space. So, I push it back until the end. So, while the Company already set all the structure how I envision, then I will have more time to relax and then go into more creative mode. At the moment it's very busy. We got the next year ‘22 Games, that is very important and I'm bringing a big ballet and I had to be, you know, assemble the creative team for it and having the necessary meetings. All of that is, is just a lot of noise in my head going into creation mode.

Lou: Okay. So, you're putting the leadership of the Company first and then when, when that’s settled a little bit, you can, you can create something. Okay, we'll wait until them. What type of Choreographer are you when you're in the studio? Do you, do you teach the material? Do you get the actors, actors? the dancers to generate it through tasks? How does that work? Carlos: For me, I teach the material mostly.

It's a combination. Sometimes there are some passages that in the context of the narrative could be anything. So, I can experiment and say “okay, you do a solo. You do that” and then I just, you know, let them see. And then I just edit it. And then starting from a conformed idea that somebody brings me that, that's a dream and then build on top of, but I'm very much, I have to see it and I have to see, and what I did with Don Q, I spent the entire year, eh, choreographing myself and putting it on camera and creating a part with a choreologist I say, this is what I think and then she writes it down. And, you know, it's all that, so that when I start, I already have I don't know, 80% of it, and then I say “you do this and you do that, you got …” you know, and they almost get dictation. But it's a combination of things, sometimes accidents happen that a dancer does a move in certain way and I say “ah wow, let's do that again. I like that. Okay. Let's do that” you know? So, like that, but that's kind of how I've been working.

Lou: Okay and what about, the performance of the movement, as you said at the beginning, you know, the emotional characterization, that side of things I've noticed, in some of the dance and ballet context that I've been in that, sometimes dancers and choreographers struggled with that a little bit.

Sometimes the dancers struggle to call upon it. Sometimes the choreographer has struggled to elicit it. How do you do that? How do you get emotional performances out of your dancers?

Carlos: Give them a lot of images to work with or to make them think. Give them a clear idea of who are they? Why are they? What are the peculiarities of that character and in that context what do I need to do?” And then just, just, it's a process of trying to get this out of them. Stop whenever it's necessary, explain some more and then try to, you know, it’s a long process until they get there.

Sometimes, you know, most of the time you require the Ballet to come back again. So, they, they have an initial go and you do the Opening, but we're going to really realize and you're going to see your vision maybe the next time around in three years’ time when you come. Because there is a process for everybody to understand and to get it into the body. But then it also had to do sometimes with the normal evolution of, of growth, you know, people growing up, you know, you, you know when you're 25, but then you know, 28 or 29, then there's a growth there in terms of your own persona. And that growth it benefits, the Ballet or a specific characterization. So, it's a little bit of that and it's a combination, obviously, the design had to work very well because of how it looks and the lighting's right, the music. And then to do the best casting you can possibly get, you know, get those in place that can deliver the vision of the Dramatic.

Lou: Presumably the dancers that you cast have access to this emotional centre.

Carlos: Yes. Yes. Hopefully and also have to be, whenever it has to be technical, able to do this at the highest standard, but you know, you'll have to work with them and, and, hopefully, you know, little by little they, you know, and you'll see it, you have to be patient as well to give the dancers that time what normal dancers will do.

I was very quickly in getting corrections and apply right away. I was very quickly, and sometimes, you know, other people will get there later perhaps. So, for me, I have to give them the time because they take all this, gather all the information you've given them and then they go out and they process it, keep processing, you know, and then again, you see the next day that something has happened so that they are thinking about it, reading or…. and then like that after one month, then it becomes organic. Then we are seeing the magic happening. So yeah, it's a process.

Lou: It's a process. It takes time. It's interesting. What you say about coming back a few years later? You know I've often thought why does anyone go see a premiere? Because actually it does take time even, you know, the first few performances, but as you say, the first few years as well can really cement a work and it can find itself can’t it that way?

I guess that's one of the other wonderful things about shows that last a long time and stories that are told across years is that you find more and more relevance and meaning and opportunity within them. Okay. So, we're coming to the end of our time, but I'm just going to quickly fire some random questions at you out of my little yellow envelope.

What haven't you done yet that you would like to do professionally?

Carlos: ERM …. Ah … erm

Lou: You can say that you've done everything!

Carlos: Romeo and Juliet?

Lou: Yeah so that's on the list. Anything else?

Carlos: I want to do a solo, a solo show on my own. Like, you know, you know, eventually, so like a retrospection and what and where I am in my life. If I can.

Lou: Exciting. I must say that as I listened to you, obviously you're going to do Romeo and Juliet in Cuba, but it feels, sad that you not going to make anything with BRB for so long.

Will you be doing smaller projects along the way?

Carlos: No. I ….

Lou: Please?

Carlos: I did try to, to do something with BRB and bring my well, you know, I, you know, I'm bringing my Don Q for BRB? I don't know if I should have said that.

Lou: It’s a scoop! Carlos: In a year's time, eh, I'm bringing my Don Q, a new production for BRB. So, I guess that qualifies as something, although this is a production that I did for the Royal Ballet, but this is going to be a completely different design and different production.

Lou: OK Well, that's exciting. And that is what I mean to feel your presence choreographically within the company and its output feels really exciting to me. Okay. What mistake do you most often make?

Carlos: I think I have to remind myself to be patient with people and give them the necessary time to, to get there to the level that they want to be. Sometimes I want, I want things done right away. but I have to be careful, I guess I was very quick that way, you know, you can make corrections and apply, but I have to, I have to work with people and be more patient.

Lou: Okay. So, a certain energy there, that go getting energy. Okay. And do you have any hopes for the ballet sector generally? Last question. What do you hope will happen in the next coming years?

Carlos: I hope that as soon as we are allowed and everybody is able to rush to the Theatres to support the sector because we need them.

We belong on the stage. We miss the audience and I know the audience missed us. And it's very tricky right now, financially, we are operating in self-preservation because we don't have the income that it needs for directors like myself to dream big and bring the productions. So, we need the support of, of the audience.

Lou: And actually you're hoping that the Daniela Cardim show that you mentioned and two other pieces are going to open in June. That's the hope, isn't it?

Carlos: That's right. The 7th of June we'll be at the Rep with the two World Premiers and one UK Premier followed by two weeks of Cinderella.

Lou: Amazing it's all there isn't it? All there ready to be savoured.

Carlos thank you so much for your time. Good luck with everything. I can't wait to see you make your stamp on the BRB and yeah, I'll see you in Birmingham. Thanks for joining me.

Carlos: Thank you, Lou. Thank you.