COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
HOUSE LABOR AND INDUSTRY COMMITTEE HEARING
STATE CAPITOL MAIN BUILDING MAJORITY CAUCUS ROOM ROOM 140 HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 2013 9:00 A.M.
IN RE: HOUSE BILL 1395
BEFORE:
HONORABLE MARIO M. SCAVELLO, MAJORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE WILLIAM F. KELLER, MINORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE RYAN P. AUMENT HONORABLE STEPHEN BLOOM HONORABLE JIM COX HONORABLE LYNDA SCHLEGEL CULVER HONORABLE BRYAN CUTLER HONORABLE SHERYL M.DELOZIER HONORABLE MARK M. GILLEN HONORABLE SETH M. GROVE HONORABLE GREGORY S. LUCAS HONORABLE RYAN E. MACKENZIE HONORABLE STEVEN C. MENTZER HONORABLE DAN TRUITT HONORABLE MARIA P. DONATUCCI HONORABLE PATRICK J. HARKINS HONORABLE BRANDON P. NEUMAN HONORABLE PAM SNYDER
ALSO IN ATTENDANCE: HONORABLE JULIE HARHART
————————— JEAN DAVIS REPORTING 285 EAST MANSION ROAD • HERSHEY, PA 17033 Phone (717)503-6568 Fax (717) 298-6451 1 COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT:
2 BRUCE HANSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, LABOR AND INDUSTRY COMMITTEE, REPUBLICAN RESEARCH 3 NOAH KARN, RESEARCH ANALYST, LABOR AND INDUSTRY COMMITTEE, REPUBLICAN RESEARCH 4 JUANITA HOFFMAN, LEGISLATIVE ASSISTANT II, REPUBLICAN CAUCUS 5 VICKI DiLEO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, LABOR AND INDUSTRY COMMITTEE, DEMOCRAT CAUCUS 6 JOANNE MANGANELLO, RESEARCH ANALYST, LABOR AND INDUSTRY COMMITTEE, DEMOCRAT CAUCUS 7
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2 1 I N D E X
2 TESTIFIERS
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3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Good morning,
4 everybody.
5 Before we begin, please rise for the Pledge of
6 Allegiance.
7 (Pledge of Allegiance.)
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: I would like to
9 thank the members of the House Labor and Industry
10 Committee, as well as our panels of expert testifiers, who
11 have generously taken their time out of their busy
12 schedules to join us.
13 I'd like the members first to introduce
14 themselves.
15 I'm Representative Mario Scavello from Monroe
16 County.
17 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Bill Keller from
18 Philadelphia County.
19 REP. COX: Jim Cox from Berks County.
20 REP. BLOOM: Stephen Bloom from Cumberland
21 County.
22 REP. HARHART: Julie Harhart from Lehigh and
23 Northampton Counties.
24 REP. HARKINS: Pat Harkins, Erie.
25 REP. GROVE: Seth Grove, York County.
4 1 REP. DONATUCCI: Maria Donatucci, Philadelphia
2 and Delaware Counties.
3 REP. SNYDER: Pam Snyder, Greene, Fayette, and
4 Washington Counties.
5 REP. LUCAS: Greg Lucas, Erie and Crawford
6 Counties.
7 REP. CUTLER: Hi. Good morning. Brian Cutler,
8 Southern Lancaster County.
9 REP. SCHLEGEL CULVER: Lynda Schlegel Culver,
10 Northumberland and Snyder Counties.
11 REP. AUMENT: Ryan Aument, Lancaster County.
12 REP. NEUMAN: Brandon Neuman, Washington County.
13 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Today we have before
14 us House Bill 1395. It's introduced by our colleague,
15 Chairman Julie Harhart. The bill would prohibit employers
16 from deducting credit card transition fees from tips earned
17 by their employees. I look forward to gathering valuable
18 input and perspective from our expert panels.
19 With that being said, at this time, I would like
20 to ask the rest of our members, which we have already done,
21 -- to introduce themselves. But I'd like to have
22 Representative Harhart, who has joined us today, before we
23 begin our testimony interrogation, I would like to
24 recognize Representative Harhart for some opening remarks.
25 REP. HARHART: Thank you, Chairman Scavello.
5 1 Good morning, everybody. Good morning, Chairman
2 Scavello, Chairman Keller, and members of the House Labor
3 and Industry Committee. And I thank you for holding
4 today's public hearing on what I believe is a vital and
5 commonsense piece of legislation which will benefit
6 hardworking taxpaying Pennsylvanians.
7 And by the way, this issue was brought to my
8 attention by a waitress at a restaurant that I frequent.
9 She brought this issue to my attention, which I had no idea
10 that this was taking place. So with that, we had
11 discussions and talked about this. And with that, I did
12 come to Labor and Industry to see if we could hold this
13 public hearing. So again, I do thank you for holding this.
14 The bill which I have introduced for the second
15 consecutive legislative session addresses instances where
16 an employee receives a tip and their employer deducts a
17 small percentage, based on the evidence, usually 3 to 4
18 percent, to subsidize their credit card processing fees for
19 the transactions.
20 House Bill 1395 would put an end to this practice
21 once and for all. It is my strong conviction that this
22 ongoing practice is unfair to tipped employees who are
23 already paid a subminimum wage and who rely on the tips
24 that they rightly earn to make their ends meet.
25 Credit card processing fees should instead be
6 1 incurred by the employer as a base cost of doing business
2 in a marketplace which has come to rely on credit card
3 transactions.
4 If House Bill 1395 is enacted, Pennsylvania would
5 join Alaska, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada,
6 New York, New Mexico, Oregon, and Washington as the 11th
7 state to prohibit employers from deducting from their
8 employees' tips to cover credit and processing fees.
9 Again, I do want to thank you for holding this
10 hearing on House Bill 1395. And I eagerly anticipate
11 hearing from our expert panels this morning.
12 So again, thanks.
13 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Thank you, Madam
14 Chairman.
15 Representative Keller.
16 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you,
17 Mr. Chairman.
18 I'd like to commend Chairman Harhart for this
19 bill. It's really embarrassing that I didn't come up with
20 something like this. This is really the job of the
21 Democratic Labor Chairman. You'll have our full support in
22 this. It is a commonsense approach to a problem that does
23 exist. I mean, these hardworking people are now being
24 passed down a cost that really shouldn't be passed down to
25 them.
7 1 And I think this is the commonsense solution to
2 this. And I commend you on this bill.
3 REP. HARHART: Chairman Keller, I may go out to
4 eat more than you do. Maybe this is why.
5 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Have you looked at my
6 waistline lately? I doubt that.
7 REP. HARHART: Thank you.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: We're having a love
9 fest here.
10 The first testifier is Melissa Bova, Government
11 Affairs Representative, Pennsylvania Restaurant and Lodging
12 Association.
13 Good morning.
14 MS. BOVA: Good morning.
15 Good morning, Chairman Scavello, Chairman Keller,
16 and members of the House Labor and Industry Committee. I
17 want to thank you today for allowing me to testify.
18 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Is that on, by the
19 way, please? because you're being recorded.
20 MS. BOVA: It's on.
21 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Good. Okay.
22 MS. BOVA: I wanted to thank you for allowing me
23 to testify before you today on House Bill 1395 sponsored by
24 Representative Harhart.
25 My name is Melissa Bova. I'm the Government
8 1 Affairs Representative at the Pennsylvania Restaurant and
2 Lodging Association. Our association represents about
3 7,500 restaurants and hotels across the Commonwealth. And
4 I'm testifying on behalf of those businesses before you
5 today.
6 I have submitted my testimony and I will speak to
7 everything in it. I am going to ad-lib a little bit and
8 kind of fill in some more information as we go along to
9 kind of give you a basis of the history of these fees, why
10 these fees occur, and why different members and different
11 businesses handle them differently.
12 Years ago, people used to use cash and checks
13 when they would go out to eat or when they would buy items.
14 Cash and checks are very straightforward. The business
15 accepts them. The money is processed. And they move
16 along.
17 Over the years, our economy and our consumers
18 have basically switched to credit cards and debit cards. I
19 think you'll find that for the most part when people go
20 out, they don't have cash. I know I don't normally have
21 cash anymore and I pay with these cards when I go out to
22 eat or when I go out to buy an item.
23 Because of this, businesses are forced to accept
24 these cards. There was actually an article on MSNBC the
25 other day on their business site that basically said
9 1 businesses that don't currently accept credit cards are
2 losing business because they're losing customers who don't
3 have cash. And businesses now who don't accept it are now
4 factoring in accepting credit cards and using credit cards
5 for payment as part of their business.
6 These credit cards, primarily Visa, MasterCard,
7 and American Express, are the three major ones that are
8 used by consumers who assess a processing fee when you
9 swipe those cards. It averages about 3 to 5 percent. And
10 it's kind of a tiered fee. You have your base processing
11 fee that's assessed by the credit card company itself.
12 Most businesses then contract with a payment
13 center, will actually contract with somebody that will run
14 all of these credit card fees through for them. So that's
15 another percentage.
16 Businesses also have to pay for the payment
17 system itself, those credit card swipe portions. That's
18 added on to it. There's usually monthly costs associated
19 with that. So on average, businesses are spending 3 to 5
20 percent of every transaction paying for these fees as a
21 cost of doing business and as a courtesy for accepting
22 these credit cards.
23 Businesses don't choose these fees. I mean,
24 small businesses would rather not have to pay anything for
25 the use of these cards. These fees are dictated to them by
10 1 the credit card companies, by Visa and MasterCard. And I
2 touch upon this in the testimony in front of you as well.
3 There is actually a class action lawsuit that was
4 done against Visa and MasterCard by these businesses, by
5 these retailers, essentially saying, we have to pay
6 whatever you tell us to because you have a monopoly. We
7 have to accept your cards. We have to pay what you tell
8 us. And we are losing money from our business because of
9 it.
10 And the Judge found in favor of these businesses.
11 And now Visa and MasterCard have to pay $7 billion for
12 transaction fees from 2004 to 2011 because of these high
13 fees that they're assessing on these small businesses.
14 Small businesses have higher percentages than larger
15 businesses. If you process less transactions, the fees are
16 higher. It's done in mass. And that's how the fees are
17 determined.
18 To kind of get into how our members do it -- and
19 we do represent the service industry. We represent the
20 restaurants and the hotels across the state. They have
21 tipped workers. The United States Department of Labor
22 provides regulations for tipped businesses and how they can
23 handle tipped wages, what they can and cannot do.
24 The United States Department of Labor makes it an
25 option -- it can be part of your business plan. It doesn't
11 1 have to be -- to assess these processing fees across the
2 total transaction. So let's say it's 3 percent. You can
3 assess it across the base portion and the tip portion or
4 you could choose to absorb the cost from the tip portion.
5 It's up to the business. They can make that decision.
6 For example -- and I use it in my testimony --
7 let's say you go out to eat and your bill is $25 and you
8 leave a $5 tip. If a business chooses to assess it across,
9 that business would make $24 minus those processing fees.
10 That tipped server would make $4.85 as opposed to $5. It's
11 a choice of the business. Some businesses do it. Some
12 businesses don't.
13 Now, the businesses that do it, if they were to
14 change their process, they're looking at thousands of
15 dollars in extra processing fees that they don't currently
16 have to account for in their business plan that they need
17 to find the money for somewhere.
18 I did go to one of our member businesses to kind
19 of get more information about how this process works. He
20 does assess the transaction fees across his business. For
21 about a five-hour shift, his servers make about $150 in
22 tips. If every single customer paid with a credit card --
23 and not everybody does -- those servers would make $145.50
24 as opposed to $150 if you were to assess it and everybody
25 paid with a credit card. So that's the minimum amount they
12 1 would make for that five-hour shift.
2 If he had to absorb that cost, it would amount to
3 about two to three thousand dollars a year. And he has to
4 find that money somewhere. Restaurants don't make a lot of
5 money, a 4 percent profit margin. So he would have to hire
6 less workers, not give raises, find a way to find that
7 money. And it's part of his business plan. He does it.
8 His servers do very well. And he would have to find the
9 extra thousands of dollars in extra processing fees
10 somewhere in his business.
11 So out of this, essentially -- and we have talked
12 to Representative Harhart about this as an option -- these
13 fees aren't a choice of the business. It's not the
14 business saying, I'm going to hurt my employees. It's the
15 credit card companies assessing it.
16 So our association would support changing the
17 bill to basically say that the credit card companies cannot
18 assess these fees on tips. So they can assess this 3 to 5
19 percent on the base portion of the bill, but they can't
20 assess these processing fees on the tip s.
21 And we feel that will address the concerns of
22 Representative Harhart, as well as ensure that the small
23 business owners aren't getting hit on their bottom line
24 with having to absorb these costs into their business.
25 And I do want to touch upon one more thing.
13 1 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: That's fine.
2 MS. BOVA: Our members are small businesses.
3 They're struggling. The economy hasn't been great for the
4 past year. As I said, profit margins are slim. You talk
5 to any restaurateur, he's working 60, 70, 80 hours a week.
6 And they care about their employees. It's a competitive
7 business. When an employee is unhappy, they go somewhere
8 else. They go to another restaurant. And restaurants take
9 care of their employees.
10 So for our members, they feel like they're
11 getting hit on their bottom line. They feel like they're
12 struggling to survive. And they really are giving back to
13 the community. They're paying their taxes. And they care
14 about their employees.
15 So we feel like this amendment would address the
16 concerns of Representative Harhart, while at the same time
17 ensuring that our small businesses aren't being impacted.
18 That is my testimony. I will be happy to take
19 any questions.
20 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: You did pretty good.
21 I was looking at your written testimony and you had it
22 memorized. You've done this before.
23 MS. BOVA: No. This is my first time.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: I'm going to go to
25 Chairman Harhart for questions first since it's her bill.
14 1 REP. HARHART: Thank you for your testimony.
2 I know we had this conversation. And I'm hoping
3 that we can work something out with what we had discussed.
4 MS. BOVA: Yes.
5 REP. HARHART: And that's why we're having this
6 public hearing and having everybody testify.
7 I understand what you're saying. The intent of
8 this is not really to put any restaurant out of business or
9 a burden on a business of any sorts. But yet, when you
10 have a waiter or waitress only making maybe minimum wage of
11 $2.83 plus really, I guess, depending on those tips, and
12 you say it's just like a small portion of it, but, you
13 know, being in their position, that could be a lot of money
14 taken off of their paycheck to pay for, you know, the
15 assessment of those credit cards.
16 So that's just a statement I wanted to make.
17 Because that's what really, I think, inspired me or wanted
18 me to introduce this legislation.
19 MS. BOVA: Okay.
20 REP. HARHART: Besides the restaurant industry,
21 what are some of the other businesses where this practice
22 will be taking place? Do you have any idea?
23 MS. BOVA: I mean, any business that accepts
24 tips, nail salons, hair salons. I mean, you'll see some of
25 those places already request that you tip in cash so those
15 1 processing fees aren't assessed.
2 We've talked about this before. You know, when
3 you're paying with a credit card, you tend to tip a little
4 bit more than if you're tipping with cash. Any business
5 that provides a service and relies on tips would be
6 affected by this legislation.
7 REP. HARHART: Do other states require employees
8 to sign a waiver, let's say, to have their tips reduced or
9 cover the credit card processing fees? And why would an
10 employee sign a waiver? Is that a practice?
11 MS. BOVA: I personally do not know. I can look
12 into it. I don't know of any businesses that would require
13 that. I mean, the Department of Labor has issued
14 regulations to businesses and said that that can be taken
15 out. You can't take out any more. A business can't take
16 out more than that 3 percent. I mean, tips are tips.
17 There are limited areas where these things can be
18 done. And that's probably the only area where it can be
19 done. I don't know of a waiver. We can look into it.
20 REP. HARHART: Interesting. Thank you.
21 MS. BOVA: Yes.
22 REP. HARHART: Thank you, Representative
23 Scavello.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Chairman Harhart.
25 Melissa, you mentioned credit cards, you know, go
16 1 after the credit card companies not to charge. Are other
2 states doing that? Do you know? Have you researched the
3 other states?
4 MS. BOVA: We are researching it now. This is
5 something that we had actually discussed a few years ago
6 with Representative Harhart as well. We can look into it.
7 I mean, the credit card companies, obviously, don't like
8 that idea.
9 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Of course not.
10 But I'd like to see if there were other states
11 that did do that because personally if we can save this
12 small businessperson, I'd rather go that route. If you
13 could research and let us know, I'd appreciate that.
14 I've got to tell you, since Chairman Harhart
15 brought this up, I have been paying cash for the tip so not
16 to have the employee penalized. I'm not sure how many
17 businesses do. You don't have that also, do you?
18 MS. BOVA: To be honest, not a lot.
19 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: There's not a lot
20 that do that?
21 MS. BOVA: Most of my members make it part of
22 their business plan to absorb the cost.
23 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: To absorb it?
24 MS. BOVA: Yes.
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: If we could find
17 1 that out also, I'd love to know how many, you know, it
2 would affect.
3 MS. BOVA: Yes.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Let the record show
5 we've been joined by Representatives Gillen, Mackenzie,
6 Mentzer, and Truitt.
7 We have some questions now from Chairman Keller.
8 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you,
9 Mr. Chairman.
10 Ms. Bova, as Chairman Harhart stated, the minimum
11 wage for tipped employees in Pennsylvania is $2.83. So
12 when they go into work that night for their six-hour shift,
13 seven-hour shift, if it's raining, snowing, or people don't
14 feel like going out that night, that's what their pay is
15 that night?
16 MS. BOVA: They have to make minimum wage. They
17 have to make $7 --
18 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Oh, God forbid.
19 MS. BOVA: I mean, but let's say you come in and
20 a business says, I'm going to pay you $2.83 --
21 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: My point is, that's
22 what they're guaranteed. That's what they know they're
23 going to make that day. They don't know what they're going
24 to make in tips.
25 MS. BOVA: Well, the business has to give them
18 1 $7.25. If they don't make it in tips, the business has to
2 pay them minimum wage no matter what.
3 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Do they do that? How
4 often does that happen?
5 MS. BOVA: It's Federal law.
6 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: I didn't ask that
7 question. How often do your restaurants have to pay the
8 Federal minimum wage because they didn't make enough money
9 to cover it?
10 MS. BOVA: For our members?
11 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: How many times does it
12 happen?
13 MS. BOVA: I couldn't tell you how many by a
14 business by business plan. But they have to pay minimum
15 wage. They have to pay $7.25. If they don't make tips,
16 they have to make $7.25. The business has to pay them
17 that.
18 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: But you don't know how
19 many times that occurs?
20 MS. BOVA: It has to occur. I mean, I don't
21 understand the question.
22 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: If it has to, how many
23 times do your restaurants, the people who employ you, have
24 to make up the difference between $2.83 and $7.25 during
25 the course of a year?
19 1 MS. BOVA: I couldn't tell you. I have 7,500
2 members.
3 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: That's my point. You
4 don't know. Nobody knows.
5 And you're talking about this is a fee that is
6 assessed onto your employers?
7 MS. BOVA: Yes.
8 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Okay. And that's a
9 cost of doing business.
10 MS. BOVA: To provide that, yeah.
11 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: That's a cost of doing
12 business.
13 MS. BOVA: You're right.
14 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Just like every other
15 cost of doing business, the heat, electric, gas. All that
16 is a cost of doing business. Do they pass that through to
17 the employees? Do they take a percentage of that?
18 MS. BOVA: That's that base. That's $24 that
19 they're making. I mean, that comes out of that $24, the
20 base of the bill. They don't take that. I mean, that's
21 not tips. Tips are tips.
22 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: My point is, that's
23 just a cost of doing business.
24 MS. BOVA: If I don't like my electric provider
25 -- I mean, Pennsylvania has switched -- I can look at other
20 1 providers. I have other options.
2 Visa and MasterCard, I mean, I can tell you the
3 credit cards I have, they're Visa or MasterCard. My
4 members can't say, I'm not going to take that anymore.
5 They don't have the opportunity to switch.
6 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Does Discover charge
7 this?
8 MS. BOVA: They all charge it. So I mean, a
9 business could say, I'll only take Discover. But then they
10 don't choose the rates.
11 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Listen, I'm trying to
12 make a point that here is a cost of doing business that is
13 pushed on to the people who are less capable of paying it.
14 It shouldn't be passed on to them. It should be like a
15 cost of doing business like everything else.
16 MS. BOVA: Yes.
17 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: And hopefully we will
18 be able to fix that with Representative Harhart's bill.
19 Do you know what percentage of employers subtract
20 credit card processing fees from their employees? Do you
21 have a percentage of your --
22 MS. BOVA: My members, when I polled them, I had
23 two that told me they do it.
24 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Oh, it's not a big
25 problem then.
21 1 MS. BOVA: I mean, there are 25,000.
2 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: But as far as you
3 know, two of your members --
4 MS. BOVA: It's not a common practice. It's a
5 business decision. It's part of your business plan. Every
6 dollar that a restaurant makes is accounted for.
7 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: And if we pass
8 legislation, then it will no longer be part of the business
9 plan?
10 MS. BOVA: They would have to change it. But
11 they would have to find those extra thousands of dollars in
12 processing fees somewhere else.
13 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Other than charging
14 their employees. That's the --
15 MS. BOVA: They would have to find -- in their
16 business plan, they would have to raise prices. They would
17 have to --
18 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Better to pass it on
19 to the customer than it is taking it out of the employees,
20 as far as I'm concerned.
21 MS. BOVA: Okay.
22 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: They should be doing
23 that now.
24 MS. BOVA: Okay.
25 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: That's just the cost
22 1 of doing business. Hopefully, we'll be able to fix this
2 with this bill. I think it's disgraceful that they take it
3 out of their employees. And maybe we'll be able to fix
4 that. They should make it a cost of doing business and
5 pass it on like they do every other cost of doing business.
6 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Representative
8 Grove.
9 REP. GROVE: Is there anything that would require
10 a business to allow an individual to actually tip using a
11 credit card -- I mean, most of the restaurants I go to,
12 there's like a little tip line where you add it in. Is
13 that a standard procedure or would businesses have the
14 ability to not include that little tip line on there where
15 you would just pay the bill?
16 MS. BOVA: Businesses have that. They can choose
17 not to allow tips to be assessed. That's another business
18 decision. Most businesses do it. As I mentioned before,
19 it's a convenience to the customer. And customers tend to
20 tip more when they're throwing it on a card.
21 REP. GROVE: Do you think legislation like this
22 would move businesses in a direction to not allow that tip?
23 Because I'm thinking to myself, I'm like you, I'm kind of
24 the electronic generation. If you find cash in my wallet,
25 be impressed. I do everything by electronic sales, which
23 1 would kind of hurt that tipping because, obviously, if
2 businesses don't allow an electronic transfer of tipping,
3 unfortunately that waitress or individual is not going to
4 be able to get a tip.
5 Would you foresee this bill potentially forcing
6 restaurants to not include the tip aspect of that? Could
7 that be a result of this?
8 MS. BOVA: Yes. I think there will be
9 restaurants who can't find that money and they'll just say,
10 well, then I wouldn't accept credit card tips. I mean,
11 some will make that decision. Money is tight for my
12 members. So they're going to find a way to get through it.
13 They can make that decision to say cash only and that's the
14 way they operate.
15 REP. GROVE: Could you also send the class action
16 suit with Visa and MasterCard? And can you kind of go over
17 how that works? Obviously, we have a multitude of credit
18 card companies, Visa, MasterCard. The Chairman mentioned
19 Discover. Is each of them a separate system? Do all those
20 credit cards -- you know, what kind of company provides
21 those electronic swipe cards to do that? Is MasterCard
22 only one? Visa only one? How does that work?
23 MS. BOVA: You have your credit card companies
24 across the top: Your Visa, your MasterCard, your American
25 Express, your Discover. They all have their own contracts,
24 1 their own agreements, their own requirements.
2 So what businesses will do is they'll contract
3 with a processor, Heartland Payment Systems, a payment
4 system processor that will essentially take all of that,
5 make it one fee, provide the processing information,
6 provide that credit card swiper. And they will process the
7 money back to all of these credit card companies.
8 So you can choose, you know, am I only going to
9 accept Visa? Am I only going to accept MasterCard? But
10 for the most part, they're using those payment systems
11 because they're always going to accept more than one
12 option.
13 REP. GROVE: Okay. Thank you.
14 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Representative
16 Bloom.
17 REP. BLOOM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 And thank you, Ms. Bova, for your testimony.
19 MS. BOVA: Sure.
20 REP. BLOOM: First of all, I want to make it
21 really clear that I respect Representative Harhart's
22 intention with this bill, and making sure we take good care
23 of waiters and waitresses is very important to me. Back in
24 my college days, I worked as a busboy. And I saw how hard
25 they worked. And I got a small share of the tips. And I
25 1 know what that environment is like.
2 But I'm concerned because oftentimes when we, as
3 government, try to intervene in a situation like this, with
4 the best of intentions, we end up hurting the very people
5 that we intend to help.
6 And I want to clarify from your testimony, is
7 what you're saying on behalf of your association that
8 represents these entrepreneurs and job creators in the
9 restaurant industry that are already struggling in this
10 difficult economy, that this is ultimately the kind of
11 unfunded regulatory mandate that could end up costing jobs
12 in that industry?
13 MS. BOVA: Yes. It will affect the industry. It
14 will affect that 4 percent profit margin that they're
15 operating under right now.
16 REP. BLOOM: So we're going to end up losing jobs
17 in the restaurant industry and actually hurting the people
18 that we're hoping to help?
19 MS. BOVA: Yes. It would have that effect. Yes.
20 REP. BLOOM: Okay. I appreciate you clarifying
21 that.
22 And for the record, I would encourage everyone
23 simply to leave a bigger tip. Thank you.
24 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Thank you,
26 1 Representative.
2 Representative Neuman.
3 REP. NEUMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 This might be ignorance, total ignorance out of
5 me, not knowing the process. What's the cost to the --
6 what's the difference in the cost to the credit card
7 company if you swipe the card for $20 without a tip versus
8 $25 with the tip?
9 MS. BOVA: It's 3 percent. Let's say it's 3
10 percent. It's no matter what. So if you do $20 without
11 the tip, it's 3 percent on $20. If you do --
12 REP. NEUMAN: So it's 3 percent of the cost?
13 MS. BOVA: Yes, the total cost of the bill.
14 REP. NEUMAN: And you may not know the answer to
15 this question. But what is the increase in cost by swiping
16 the card? Why is it a percentage rather than a fixed fee
17 for you? Because I don't really see how it cost more to
18 swipe a card for $20 rather than $25.
19 MS. BOVA: It's always been the way it's been
20 done.
21 REP. NEUMAN: Was that brought up in the lawsuit
22 that you guys won? Was it settled at 3 percent, it has to
23 be 3 percent all the time?
24 MS. BOVA: It was -- I mean, there's a bunch of
25 different factors that are part of it.
27 1 REP. NEUMAN: Okay.
2 MS. BOVA: They're still negotiating it now.
3 REP. NEUMAN: Okay.
4 MS. BOVA: Now, we've won the suit. They're
5 figuring out if it's 7 billion, 8 billion. And that's part
6 of the negotiations we're a part of now in terms of how
7 much they will be paying out. And there's a variety of
8 different factors that are a part of that.
9 REP. NEUMAN: Okay. Thank you very much.
10 MS. BOVA: Sure.
11 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: You know, for the
12 record, I had a business that had waitresses. I paid them
13 the minimum wage, not $2.83, and I didn't deduct the tips.
14 And just like I told that to Chairman Keller, I
15 had them lined up wanting to work for me. I just would be
16 interested in seeing how many restaurants out there or how
17 many do that, have that practice, because this might not be
18 that big of a deal. It might only be a few that are doing
19 it and maybe we need to maybe talk to them.
20 Thank you very much.
21 MS. BOVA: Thank you.
22 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: I'm going to ask the
23 next two testifiers if they can come up together and just
24 put the mikes on. It's Teofilo Reyes, National Research
25 Director, Restaurant Opportunities Centers United and
28 1 Sheila Maddali, Research and Policy Coordinator, Restaurant
2 Opportunities Centers United.
3 Thank you very much. We have your testimony. If
4 you can just briefly summarize it, I'd appreciate it.
5 Thank you.
6 MS. MADDALI: Hello. My name is Sheila Maddali.
7 I'm the Research and Policy Coordinator for the Restaurant
8 Opportunities Center of Philadelphia. I want to thank you
9 for the opportunity to speak in favor of House Bill 1395.
10 The Restaurant Opportunities Center of
11 Philadelphia is a non-profit organization that is focused
12 on improving working conditions in the restaurant industry.
13 In Philadelphia, the restaurant industry is the fifth
14 largest private-sector employer and employs over 113,000
15 restaurant workers.
16 Currently in 2007, the Philadelphia restaurant
17 industry had $2.3 billion in revenue. And despite the
18 recession, the restaurant industry is one of the only
19 employers in Philadelphia that continues to grow. However,
20 despite this growth and the profit, these jobs are
21 characterized by low wages, law violations, and a lack of
22 access to benefits.
23 In 2012, October 2012, we conducted the most
24 comprehensive report on Philadelphia's restaurant industry.
25 And we found that the median wage for workers was $10.32
29 1 with an annual earning of a little over $18,000 a year.
2 And 93 percent of restaurant workers lacked access to
3 earned sick days. And 57.9 percent of restaurant workers
4 experienced overtime violations. And 40 percent were
5 forced to work off the clock without pay.
6 As we speak, actually we have members of ROC
7 Philly that are finalizing a settlement with their fine
8 dining employer who engaged in persistent wage theft via
9 tip deductions over the course of several years.
10 So in order to improve working conditions in the
11 restaurant industry, we engage consumers, workers, and
12 employers. We engage employers that employ high road
13 policies which are pro-worker policies, such as paying
14 above the minimum wage, providing paid sick days, to show
15 that there's a high road to profitability.
16 We engage consumers to kind of expand the idea of
17 ethical eating to include workplace treatment and the
18 conditions of workers who cook the food, grow the food,
19 prepare the food. And we empower hundreds of restaurant
20 workers throughout the city through fine dining and
21 bartending classes, English as a second language classes,
22 leadership development institutes, and a worker-led Policy
23 Committee.
24 In 2011, our Policy Committee actually chose to
25 focus on a very similar bill in Philadelphia that was
30 1 introduced by Councilman James Kenney. That bill, the
2 gratuities bill, prevented employers from deducting a
3 portion of the credit card fees from employees' tips.
4 Prior to passing this legislation, we estimated
5 that approximately 25 to 30 percent of restaurants in
6 Philadelphia were deducting these fees. From what we've
7 seen now -- it's still relatively new. But from what we've
8 seen now, that's drastically reduced. We've heard of a few
9 examples here and there where it's still occurring. But
10 largely it's reduced.
11 The reason this was a priority for our members is
12 because a lot of our members are tipped workers who make
13 $2.83 an hour and really do rely on their tips to survive,
14 whether they're cash tips or credit card tips. That is
15 their entire survival.
16 If you're a tipped worker and you're making $2.83
17 after taxes, you literally get a paycheck that says this is
18 not a paycheck. It says zero, zero, zero. This is not a
19 paycheck. So the tips are the only income these workers
20 have at the end of the day.
21 And while technically employers are supposed to
22 make up that $7.25, it often does not happen. The
23 Department of Labor even investigated compliance and found
24 an 84 percent non-compliance rate.
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Sheila, did you say
31 1 that in Philadelphia it is not -- they cannot pass it on?
2 Did it pass?
3 MS. MADDALI: Yes.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: In Philadelphia, a
5 credit card, they cannot take a deduction, the restaurants
6 cannot take a deduction; am I right?
7 MS. MADDALI: Correct.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: How about
9 Pittsburgh? Is it in Pittsburgh as well or just Philly?
10 MS. MADDALI: It's not in Pittsburgh. There's
11 some interest and momentum in Pittsburgh. We have a ROC
12 affiliate in Pittsburgh as well and restaurant workers
13 there. So there's momentum in Pittsburgh as well.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Thank you.
15 MS. MADDALI: So in addition to the low wages,
16 the lack of benefits, and the law violations, we find that
17 this is just, you know, the base level of keeping
18 restaurant workers sustainable in the economy. You know,
19 with the cuts to social services, the low wages, the
20 already difficult economic times, this is an economic
21 necessity for our members and for restaurant workers
22 throughout the state.
23 So, you know, we feel like it's the very least
24 baseline worker protection.
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Thank you.
32 1 MR. REYES: Thank you, Chairman.
2 My name is Teofilo Reyes. I'm the National
3 Research Director for Restaurant Opportunities Centers
4 United.
5 Sheila Maddali, my colleague, works for the
6 Restaurant Opportunity Center of Philadelphia, which is the
7 affiliate here in the state. And as she mentioned, we are
8 building a base among workers in Pittsburgh as well.
9 I would like to thank you and the fellow members
10 of the House Labor and Industry Committee for this
11 opportunity to speak about House Bill 1395. And I'd
12 especially like to thank Representative Harhart for
13 bringing this bill forward.
14 The mission of the Restaurant Opportunities
15 Centers is to increase wages and working conditions for
16 restaurant workers around the nation. We represent 10,000
17 workers nationwide, 100 employers, and thousands of engaged
18 consumers.
19 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Excuse me. Is your
20 mike on?
21 MR. REYES: It is on.
22 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Put it closer.
23 MR. REYES: Okay.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Thank you.
25 MR. REYES: Okay.
33 1 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Some of the members
2 couldn't hear you.
3 MR. REYES: Okay.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: If you want to just
5 repeat that part of your testimony, we'd appreciate it.
6 MR. REYES: Right. So our mission as an
7 organization is to improve wages and working conditions for
8 the nation's restaurant workforce. So we are very
9 supportive of this bill and would love to see passage of
10 it.
11 There are 10 million employees nationwide. There
12 are 10 million restaurant workers nationwide. And we know
13 that the restaurant industry is one of the largest and
14 fastest-growing private sector employers in the nation and
15 in the state of Pennsylvania.
16 Unfortunately, despite this, restaurant jobs
17 provide largely low wages and little access to benefits.
18 Seven of the ten lowest-paying occupations in the country
19 are in the restaurant industry.
20 In Pennsylvania, the median wage for restaurant
21 waiters and waitresses is $9.32 per hour. So $9.32 per
22 hour, that means that half of all waiters and waitresses
23 are going to earn less than that. For bussers, runners,
24 and barbacks, as Representative Bloom, you mentioned, you
25 were a busser, the median wage is $8.75 per hour. And for
34 1 bartenders, the median wage is $9.44 per hour. Those are
2 the highest tipped wages in the industry that bartenders
3 receive.
4 So overall, we're looking at 210,000 tipped
5 restaurant workers in Pennsylvania. About 105,000 of them
6 are going to earn less than $9.44 per hour.
7 As Sheila Maddali mentioned, the tip minimum wage
8 -- and others here have mentioned, the tipped minimum wage
9 is $2.83 per hour. That means that tipped employees depend
10 on their tips to survive. They don't receive a check. You
11 know, their check comes out null. It goes to cover tax
12 liabilities. That $2.83 per hour goes to cover tax
13 liabilities. And they're left with essentially their tips
14 to survive on. Any fluctuation in tips can have a dramatic
15 effect on people's ability to survive day to day especially
16 if they're dealing with tips in cash. It makes it
17 difficult to set up lines of credit to build financial
18 stability.
19 So we analyzed census data here for Pennsylvania.
20 And we found that three-quarters of tipped workers are
21 women. So 75 percent of that -- about 150,000 tipped
22 workers are women. And 45 percent of them are over the age
23 of 25. And 20 percent of tipped workers are married. And
24 24 percent have children that they care for in their homes.
25 So these are families with children. It's not just, you
35 1 know, teenagers. This is not just people who are
2 necessarily working their way through college. This also
3 affects a lot of people in the state that are trying to
4 build families and build a stable life.
5 And 13 percent of tipped workers depend on food
6 stamps to feed themselves and their family. And 27 percent
7 live in poverty. So the people who bring you your food to
8 your table do not earn enough to put food on their own
9 tables necessarily. So this is something to keep in mind
10 as well.
11 When we've talked to people around the country,
12 they're outraged to hear that a portion of their tips gets
13 deducted from the credit card bill. Simply, when people
14 leave a tip, they expect that tip to go to the tipped
15 employee. They don't expect a portion of that to go to
16 cover business costs of the employer.
17 That's pretty much universally true. People,
18 when they leave a tip, they expect that tip to go to the
19 tipped workers. You know, the workers are not business
20 partners. They don't earn a fix percent of profits. So
21 they should not be expected to pay a fixed percent of
22 business costs essentially.
23 We think House Bill 1395 is a great first step.
24 We would also like you to consider additional steps to
25 benefit tipped employees. There are 25 states that have a
36 1 tipped minimum wage higher than that of Pennsylvania. And
2 among the ten states that do not allow gratuity protection,
3 six of those actually do not have a tipped minimum wage at
4 all. Alaska, Montana, Nevada, California, Washington,
5 Oregon, and Minnesota do not have a tipped wage at all,
6 which means that all tipped employees earn the base, earn
7 the minimum wage that all other workers earn and earn tips
8 on top of that.
9 In those states that do not have that, we see
10 that poverty rates amongst tipped employees have been
11 reduced by a third, even though poverty rates across the
12 states are roughly the same.
13 The National Restaurant Association has growth
14 projections for every state. They look at how they expect
15 the restaurant industry to grow. Those seven states that
16 neither have a gratuity -- that do protect gratuities and
17 that also do not have a tipped minimum wage, they all are
18 expected to grow at a rate of 10 percent over the next ten
19 years. They only expect Pennsylvania to grow at a rate of
20 5 percent over the next ten years.
21 There's no relationship that you can draw that
22 these costs have a negative impact on business growth. The
23 states that have the highest wages for tipped workers have
24 the highest growth for restaurant businesses as well.
25 We feel that no workers should earn less than
37 1 minimum wage but that any effort to increase the wages of
2 tipped workers is a step in the right direction.
3 Finally, I would just like to mention, we
4 surveyed 500 restaurant workers in Philadelphia. And we
5 found that nine out of ten of them do not have access to
6 paid sick days, so they must work when they are ill. We
7 found that 65 percent of restaurant workers in Philadelphia
8 have worked while they are sick. And a third of those have
9 reported making their coworkers sick.
10 Because wages tend to be low and because workers
11 depend on their tips to survive, if they are sick, they
12 can't afford to stay home. They have to go into work
13 because they can't afford to lose that day's tips, that
14 day's wage.
15 I assure everyone here who has eaten at a
16 restaurant that you have been served by a worker who is
17 sick. We know members who have gone into work with pink
18 eye, with typhoid fever, even swine flu, and they did not
19 know until after the fact because they couldn't afford to
20 stay home or they were threatened with losing their job if
21 they did stay home.
22 Like I said, we support increased wages. We
23 support basic benefits for all restaurant workers. We
24 might not see passage of that here. But House Bill 1395
25 would be an important first step to benefit restaurant
38 1 workers. And we do not think it would negatively impact
2 the restaurant industry in Pennsylvania.
3 Thank you.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Thank you very much.
5 Thank you both for your testimony.
6 You know, under the Federal Fair Labor Standards
7 Act, employers must make up the difference between the
8 $2.83 subminimum wage that they receive and the $7.25
9 minimum wage to which they are entitled should their tips
10 be insufficient.
11 How are the employees made aware of this right?
12 Is there a procedure in place that the employees know that?
13 MR. REYES: I believe every business is required
14 to have a posting. In general, we find that there is
15 tremendous ignorance on this issue. A lot of workers do
16 not know that that's the case. And even a lot of employers
17 do not know that that's the case. You know, as we
18 mentioned, the Department of Labor, they've actually
19 investigated 9,000 restaurant businesses over the last two
20 years and found 84 percent non-compliance, meaning they
21 found a rate of violations of 84 percent.
22 I don't think that's entirely malfeasance. I
23 think there's a lot of ignorance that leads to it.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Okay.
25 MR. REYES: It also can take --
39 1 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Are they fined when
2 that occurs? Will they fine them?
3 MR. REYES: Yes, sir. They are fined.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Okay.
5 Chairman Harhart.
6 REP. HARHART: They do not take the charge off of
7 the waiter or waitress. Okay. I was wondering why the
8 majority of states which have prohibited this practice is
9 in the West Coast? Do you know the answer to that
10 question? Why the West Coast?
11 MR. REYES: They are not all on the West Coast.
12 Like, I mentioned Montana.
13 REP. HARHART: Right.
14 MR. REYES: Nevada, Minnesota. Some of those --
15 and a lot of those states, the tipped minimum wage has been
16 eliminated through ballot initiative, so essentially
17 through the will of the people of that state. I know for a
18 fact that's the case in Washington State and Alaska and
19 Montana. I'm not sure on the others.
20 REP. HARHART: On the West Coast, why do they do
21 this?
22 MR. REYES: Well, I think, for one, they allow
23 these types of ballot initiatives to go before the public.
24 So I think that would be the primary reason.
25 REP. HARHART: A referendum?
40 1 MR. REYES: Yes, a referendum.
2 REP. HARHART: Oh, okay. Interesting.
3 Thank you.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Thank you, Chairman
5 Harhart.
6 Chairman Keller.
7 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Thank you,
8 Mr. Chairman. I'll be brief.
9 I was just wondering. I asked Ms. Bova the same
10 question. What percentage of employers do you think
11 subtract credit card transactions fees from their
12 employees' tips? Do you have any idea?
13 MS. MADDALI: Prior to passing the legislation in
14 Philadelphia, it seemed about 25 to 30 percent.
15 MR. REYES: We know it's not a universal
16 practice. In some locations, it's much more widespread
17 than others.
18 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: Is it a growing
19 practice?
20 MS. MADDALI: In Philadelphia, it's been
21 drastically reduced with the passage of the bill. And in
22 Pittsburgh, from what we've talked about with our
23 colleagues in Pittsburgh, it hasn't particularly grown.
24 But now that there's momentum in Philadelphia, workers are
25 coming forward to our Pittsburgh --
41 1 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: No. I mean, has the
2 practice of the taking from the employees' tips, has that
3 practice grown as it starts to catch on? Are more and more
4 employers deducting that fee from the employees' tips?
5 MR. REYES: We don't have a solid answer to that.
6 Like I said, there's variation. So in certain places where
7 it's an accepted practice, it seems to be much more
8 widespread. Other places a lot of businesses wouldn't even
9 consider it because they wouldn't think it's appropriate.
10 Stephen Starr is a --
11 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: I know who Stephen
12 Starr is.
13 MR. REYES: -- restaurateur in Philadelphia who
14 is now expanding in New York and elsewhere. He reported
15 that because of the Gratuity Protection Bill passing in
16 Philadelphia, he was losing, I believe, he said $200,000 a
17 year. So that's $200,000 in tips that are not going to his
18 tipped employees.
19 Now, he's expanding businesses. You know, as we
20 speak, he's opened two new restaurants in New York. So if
21 New York does not have that gratuity protection, I believe
22 that we would see that he would be expanding that practice
23 as well. He's very influential. I would think in certain
24 circles that this practice would be expanding.
25 MINORITY CHAIRMAN KELLER: That's how he can
42 1 finance his restaurant in New York, by taking it out of the
2 tips.
3 Again, I think this is a horrible practice. And
4 hopefully we will be able to do something to fix it.
5 Again, the working poor, the people who can least
6 afford it, are again being asked to pay the bills for
7 expansion into New York.
8 I hope we will be able to do something with this
9 bill, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: New York, I believe,
11 does it. They prohibit it in New York.
12 Representative Bloom.
13 REP. BLOOM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
14 Thank you, Ms. Maddali and Mr. Reyes. I'm trying
15 to figure out, listening to your testimony and indicating
16 -- reading where it says you're a non-profit organization
17 focused on creating a sustainable and profitable restaurant
18 industry, what type of organization are you? Are you a
19 501(c)3 charity or are you union? What kind of a group is
20 this, the ROC?
21 MR. REYES: We are a 501(c)3.
22 REP. BLOOM: And does your funding then come from
23 donations from the general public?
24 MR. REYES: It comes from the general public from
25 foundations. We do have a membership base as well.
43 1 REP. BLOOM: So the donors then -- because you're
2 a 501(c)3, you're filing a 990 every year so the donor base
3 is publicly available?
4 MR. REYES: Yes.
5 REP. BLOOM: Who are some of your major funders?
6 MR. REYES: I'm not in the Development
7 Department. I know they received funds from the Ford
8 Foundation, from Rockefeller. I'm not sure entirely. I
9 could provide a list. I believe that's pretty publicly
10 available.
11 REP. BLOOM: I guess just to cut to the chase of
12 my question, do you have restaurants or restaurant
13 associations that contribute?
14 MR. REYES: No. We have set up an -- well, we
15 have helped bring together restaurants to form an
16 association called the Restaurants Advancing Industry
17 Standards in Employment. And the restaurant owners
18 themselves chose the name. RAISE is what it stands for.
19 They don't pay dues to the organization. But we
20 come together. We have a common objective of improving
21 conditions. And those restaurants have, you know,
22 exhibited both higher levels of benefits and payments that
23 they have integrated into their business plans from the
24 beginning.
25 REP. BLOOM: There's been a movement -- I've seen
44 1 a lot in the news lately -- pushing for higher minimum wage
2 for fast-food workers, I think $15 an hour for fast-food
3 workers. Is that something you guys have been involved in?
4 MR. REYES: We are often confused with that. We
5 have received a lot of press attention because of that. We
6 do represent fast-food workers. We have not been involved
7 in that specifically, although we are supportive of their
8 goals. We think it's a valid objective.
9 REP. BLOOM: And I know those groups have used
10 some fairly militant tactics in those protests. Do you
11 guys support the use of militant tactics against the lawful
12 restaurant establishments?
13 MR. REYES: We support --
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: Representative
15 Bloom, can we stay to House Bill 1395?
16 REP. BLOOM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17 I'm just trying to figure out what direction this
18 testimony is coming from. Thank you.
19 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN SCAVELLO: First I want to
21 thank Chairman Harhart for bringing House Bill 1395
22 forward. And I also want to thank all the testifiers.
23 This has been an interesting hearing. Our folks are going
24 to sit down and continue to discuss this and the testimony.
25 I thank each and every one of you for being here
45 1 today and also the members for getting here early this
2 morning to have this hearing as well.
3 Thank you.
4 (The hearing concluded at 9:52 a.m.)
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46 1 I hereby certify that the proceedings and
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3 taken by me on the within proceedings and that this is a
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