S. Ernest Vandiver Oral History Interview –JFK #1, 5/22/1967 Administrative Information
Creator: S. Ernest Vandiver Interviewer: John F. Stewart Date of Interview: May 22, 1967 Place of Interview: Atlanta, Georgia Length: 71 pp.
Biographical Note Vandiver, S. Ernest; Governor of Georgia (1959-1963). Vandiver discusses his role in John F. Kennedy’s [JFK] presidential campaign in Georgia (1960), JFK’s push to gain southern support during this campaign, JFK’s policies regarding civil rights, and events that occurred during his presidency, among other issues.
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Transcript of Oral History Interview These electronic documents were created from transcripts available in the research room of the John F. Kennedy Library. The transcripts were scanned using optical character recognition and the resulting text files were proofread against the original transcripts. Some formatting changes were made. Page numbers are noted where they would have occurred at the bottoms of the pages of the original transcripts. If researchers have any concerns about accuracy, they are encouraged to visit the library and consult the transcripts and the interview recordings.
Suggested Citation S. Ernest Vandiver, recorded interview by John F. Stewart, May 22, 1967, (page number), John F. Kennedy Oral History Program.
Oral History Interview
Of
S. Ernest Vandiver
Although a legal agreement was not signed during the lifetime of S. Ernest Vandiver, upon his death, ownership of the recording and transcript of his interview for the Oral History Program passed to the John Fitzgerald Kennedy Library.
The following terms and conditions apply:
1. The transcript is available for use by researchers.
2. The tape recording shall be made available to those researchers who have access to the transcript.
3. Copyright to the interview transcript and tape is assigned to the United States Government.
4. Copies of the transcript and the tape recording may be provided by the Library to researchers upon request for a fee.
5. Copies of the transcript and tape recording may be deposited in or loaned to institutions other than the John F. Kennedy Library. S. Ernest Vandiver
Table of Contents
Page Topic 1, 4, 14, 23 Vandiver’s interactions with John F. Kennedy [JFK] before he became president 1, 7, 15, 21, 28 JFK and the Georgia delegation’s support 2, 15, 34, 59, 64, 69 Vandiver’s impressions of John F. Kennedy [JFK] 6, 11, 20, 25, 46, 60 Civil rights 10 1960 Democratic National Convention 10, 16 Vandiver as the protest candidate for the vice presidential nomination, 1960 17 JFK meeting with Southern governors regarding vice presidential nomination 31, 40 Presidential campaign in Georgia, 1960 32 JFK’s trip to Warm Springs, Georgia 38 Vandiver’s relationship with Robert F. Kennedy [RFK] 40 The role of religion in JFK’s presidential campaign 42 Vandiver’s potential appointment as Secretary of the Army 47, 65 Integration of schools 52 Voting rights 54 International trade agreements regarding food and textiles 57 Meeting with JFK over the Cuban Missile Crisis 67 Interaction with JFK at Inaugural Ball, 1961 69 JFK’s call to Vandiver requesting the release of Martin Luther King, Jr. from jail ,J
Oral Hiatory Interview
with
5. BIUm&T VANDIVD
May 22, 1967 Atlanta, Geor91a ay John r. Stewart For the John F. Kennedy Library
STJ.WAa'ra Governor Vandiver, do you recall when ..u first
..t John Kennedy? Y••• I thin@ the firat t!me I met him personally was after the 1956 Convention when
he came to Atlanta, Geor9ia~ at the invitation of ) Mr. Robert B. Troutman, Jr. There vaa a Democratic D meetinq which he addressed at the.Ainkler Hotel
here in Atlanta. And :t, along with three or
I fogr other hundred Oeor9ian•: had an opportunity of •ha>cin9 hands with him and meetin9 him peraonally.
STEWART• You didn't, then, aee him at the 1956 Convention? VANDIVER a No, I did not. I, of oourse, as a member of the Geer9ia delegation had t:he privilege of •upportin9 l -2-
him tor vice president. I will have to admit
that probably the reason that the Georgia
·--., ...... ,. th• daleg-ation supported Senator Jtennedy for/vice \ pre•ideney wa• their dislike for Mr. [Bate•)
xefauve~Who later did receive the nomination ) for vice praaident. It waa an alternative /" choiee~ather than support Xefauvar Who waa~ enathema to the Georqia deleqation.
STBKARTI Did you peraonally--were you very well aware of Senator Kennedy's c:apabilitiea at that time, do
you recall? / Ho, 1 was not. '~f_!f I'm eorreat I believe
that they showed a film /\of which he was the J narratorf\. about the Dcunocratic \..arty ~nd he was I ~ J an extremely at.tractive young fallow who seemed
a-, have great promise. I think probably the
8howi.ng of that tilm brought his name and political
attractiveness to the notice of the Convention.
Really I, other than reading the atory of his
election to the Congress and the Senate in national magazines, had had no personal contact
with him. I knew of himj\of course. J -3-
Di~ any member• of hia etaff have any contact
with you or the Georgia dele9ation at that
Convention. do you recall?
VANDIVBR1 A• l recall, Senator l(ennedy di~ome by briefly and appear before th• aeor9ia dele9ation. Of course Harvin Griffin was Governor of Georgia
at ~t time. Georgia operate• under the unit - _. rule1 and ~ •ince the delegatee are cho""flor were ---'{ - at that. time\ ~- by the Governor whatever the
Governor said waa the wy the delegation vot9d • .. oertalnly aould control a majority of the
deleqat1on. I believe that he did oome by
briefly. %'•not clear on that t.1lou9h.
aut. it •till waa more an anti-Jtefauver thing
than a • • • I would have to say that that'• true, that there
vaan•t any great moYament in Geor9ia for 3ohn
xannedy for vice preaident. it wu more of an anti-vote apinat Kefauver.
STEWAR'l'a no you recall your reac~ion to thi• appesa&nce
that he made before the Democratic state organization? ·•-"": . __ , . .... ·• - •/'~ ... ·--· -•1vw•. ..-..,· . .. •1.:...... •_:: · ••• ...... ~- •• ,.. • • -\.. .. ~ , • • .. . •• • ~ • •• ·-- ' • • I ••,
l -4-
'that would have been in • 57 or • 58.
VANDIVBlh Yes. That wa• after the • 56 Convention. I don't recall anyt:hin9 that he aaid at that
particular time. I know that Bob Troutman. Jr . /1 ) had gone to aolleqe with Joseph Kennedy AJr. ~ '/ ) at Barvu"d and he knew Jack Kennedy very well.
Be aame to Atlanta at the instigation of Bob
Troutman. Be did make a ..ry at.tractive
appearance. I do recall that each ~ "ery person Who waa preeent at that meeting received a Chriataaa card the follovin9 Christmaa from 3ack and Jaokie. /~ -- ,_,..__T S'l'BWAR!rt 'lhi11 vaa standard practice I hear ~~g i that peritd.
VASDlVJIR• J 9uess so.
Do you recall W'hen it became apparent to you
\ that he~ga goinq to make a run in 1960j'. and what were your tint impreaaiona of ,: - -;-;_---,J~~ Cl... for ~he presidency. However, at that particular --- -5- j~ ~ time, ~, 1 nobody wae sure at all that be would '----· ' be a formidable candidate. He had made a fairly \. good showin9 at tba '56 Convention and had 0 attracted attention t.o himself nati,pal·l~, but at that particula~ time nobody considered him aa a formidable candidate. STEWAR!l'a l)o you recall when you started to •onsider him a• * aerioue can4idate? I ' I would say about a year before the Convention {\ •• he beqan to move around the oountry ·more. ae ' . he b'gan to 9et publicity in the national media, a• he began to make preparti~r the VIU'iou~ primaries around the countr~we r$alized then that he waa a serious candidate and would be formidable. STENA.RT• What were your own pw.rsonal view• of him aa a candidate, say, in late 1919, early 1960? ~ VAMDIVBlh l ques• maybe because we were AClose to the eame a9ef it 'Waa $'little difficult for me to visuali&• a man o~at youth beoomin9 President o~.. th• United -· . · .. (.'··'' {~)0 States. Of course at that tinie Bisenhower wa• ) 1 t . -.,l -6- r;:. .. . . I ,' President) and:\Nixon as Vice Pr••ident stood out •• probably the leading candidate. And we in Georgia of courae--1 waa Governor at that time/\ ~· Georgia delegation, after conferring among ourMlv•• and with •r oongre•amen and with our two ••natora, decided that we would •upport Lyndon Johnson at the ~ational ~onvention in 1960, which we did. S'l'JLWAR.T I What type of an image would you aay, aa far a• you personally were concerned, did Senator Kennedy have on the whole probl.. of eivil right• during this period? VAbDXVER1 Du.ring thia period X would say be was a little vaiJUe on civil right•. Be waa seeking the vote• of th• &out.hem stat.ea at the Convention ~d I ) don't think he made any prono\ICementa of any great moment, really, that would alienate those votes. However /f"9 did feel that Senator Lyndon l /\ 7 John•on)with hi• reoordt at that time in the Senate of the United Statea, waa more favorably 1 -7- disposed toward our position than was President Kennedy, candidate Kennedy(et that time. STD1AR't1 was there any eupport at all for Kennedy within the Georgia delegation? Robert Trout:man.;'.Of course t~aa not a member of I the Georgia delegation but he waa conatantly working OD the membership of the Georgie delegation in support of Kennedy. 'l'he only one that I can reoall that actually publicly stated 1 that he waa for Kennedy l!lt that time 'tras a man by the name of Jamea wb~i-~!J1Smith; ~o was thee, and i• now, an attorney down in Albany, Georgia. And ho was publicly for Kennedy. He was a /{-<;;. '"''!'( [ ..,,, ,-fl' -'/-° / member of the delegation. ?~wt~- under the unit rule;and he was just one member. I think he was the only one. He went out t'> Los - __,._ Anqe1eit~e )wek~b:f~re the convention with Bob Troutman and X think worked actively for :Kennedy among other delegation• and anonc; the Georgia delegation. S'l'EWART1 Why did so few of the congressiona;l/Georgia delegation become iru:r:bers of the -~~ongre_!S~~~~~1 :· -a- ) delegationf,_~r is this usual practice h Georgia? J 1 think there are only four • • • VAND?VBR1 Hellbers of the congressional delegation become delegates to th• Conventio~? STEWART1 Right. VANl>IVZR1 % think we contacted eaah of them and asked them if they wanted to attend. And eome of ~ did and aome of thent did not. Those who wanted-· to attend we made delegates. Thi• had ntathing-I think onty one actually att8tlded and four out of the twelve were dele9atea. Waa thi• about the normal ratio? VAlU>1VBR1 I would aay generally that yoa•d have more than (/J ..,- one\ of the twelv• OOn9%'••aional represent.at.ives. ~ever J don~t recall which one attended at the pre.. nt time •. S1'ENART1 But you don't feel thi• had anythinq to do with ~r xe \{_ i~. -Y-1f:v'at the conteat bet.en Rennedy anQ ~ia~ .. -· · that time? VANDIVER& Jfo)becaaee each member of the Congress and of , , - 7':: .../ .. / I -- ~-t-:.~"· the Senate were ' ____at-tendia: __,,: the opportunity of I l -9- As you recall, four accepted and only one attended. l ha4 alked you before about the brief [Herman) Talmad41• for Preaident campaign. Do yo11 recall the ori9insof thia at all or ju•t what happened to it? ' 1I VAHDIVD.1 Of oourur '.!' • :·.:: :· was not absolutely I suitable to the Oeorgia delegation as a candi«late,At --;- I . .---- ~er he was more ~~~-~!~~-•)than xeW:~dt~~ eeekin9 an alternative/ a• :t would: 1 8~11 it, there -:... I -. --·- . nt!fht have been a small amount of interest in the poeaiblity of Talmadge bee!oming a candidate. S'RWAR'?t Did you teel that such a movement might provide •ome leverage on t.ha platform or on the selection of the nominees? VANDIVBR1 That 1N0uld have been posail:>le had Tllmadge been a favorite eon, it could have been possible. ' You say Mr. John•on wasn't a totally acceptable candidate. What was the main reservation ••• l -10- VAlmIVBR 1 Well, parts of the delegation didn • t believe that he represented the true £•••- of the ..._, '- :' J. I louth. I think ~- of _t~•-.1 aubaequent events proved that they were right. ,,,. I ~ li -' t -r_ , l . ' .. { ' - ,. / Where were they leaning if they wereA•t that enthuaad with Johnaon? VANDIVER• Well, during the 1960 Convention the .!_outhern states were in constant:t contaot ·and there was a movement on the floor of th• Convention to get me to run aa a protect vice preaidential candidate for the ~outhern a tatea. And I thinkj !' I '· had I won ithat I would not have had a chance in the world of getting the vice presidential 1 nomination( ~owever, as a proteat candidate I I might have gotten the votes of ten or twelver / •outbern states. S'RM'ARTa I wa• 9oing to ask you about that llter. was there a fear among the deleqatea that there would be a problem a1 far aa their loyalty to the :Democratic ~rty being challenged by the Credentials Committee, l or had all this bee.'1 worked out beforehand? -11- Ho, we had no feara abo\lt that. Georgia was the never only state at the Convention that had/gone Republican at that t!ma. We felt like our credential• were pretty good and we had no fears of being thrown out of the convention;1 ·; /·,, ...... I .. _, . 1-{ ~ .1,,. 4 ( /? .· . ~.. ,__ ,, v STE.WART a I think Chairman [Paul M.J Butler had taken certain actions or matte certain noieea in this direot1on in 1958 or '59, didn't he? ? Th6• free elector• bQsin•••· 1 -/ •• • ' •• ~ '.U: '.·~ ~~ 11 '' \ It waa over t.h-ri' from 1948 on. rB$1laade --··-- . ·-·- -· ~ noise• trying to fri«;ht:en the d•l998-t••· We wex:e not at all frightened about being thrown out. STENAR'1'1 'thi• wasn•t a eariou• concern ~ith anyone? VJUmIVD t Mo. STEWAR.1'1 Do you redall what koJtea, if any, j'ou had of kaepinq the eifil right• plank of the platform somewhat in tune with th• feelin9-6f the South? Did.you anticipate that you could ;- -L ·~ - i/'/ --<-;,"' ,~ i \ 1 PQeaitiv•l.Y.1any•"in9? - - . / \ VANDIVER1 Yes. We antioipated that there would be a very '·~ .,. / -12- I./ I· 1otvil right• plank propoaed, and there waa. Of course ·"•~cb state had membership on the 1 platfom committee 1and we utilized this member ship, a• you may or may not recall, to submit to the Convention a minority report. I bad had a hea.rfattack in March 1960, some three '• or four month• prior to the Convention. Phy- aically 1 was not able to deliver the minority report ~ which I probably would have done had l been in good physical shape. So I proposed ,' 1 that Mr. James.! G~eqg' • wa• the chairman of '------the Demoarat.io ~arty in Geo%'9ia, whom I bad eu9qested for the chairmanship • • • Jle•s from New En9land, ian't he? VABDXVDa Yes, he ia. Be'• from Connecticut. And we suqqested that he deliver the minority report, I I Whioh I think was aic;ned by some twalv~ states 1n the south. And he did deliver thtst report to confusion the Convention and curuaed utter/t:hrou9hout America, a man from Geor9ia with a New England ~ooent delivering a minority report. It was -13- quite an intereatinq report and received wide ' (\ approbation, I mw~ht add, nationally. ST~a Did you feel that any miatakes were made on the part of !outhern deleqationa in their efforts totDne down the civil ri9hts plank? What I'm asking- is, was it almost inevitable that the plank that actually went through was 9oing to go through, or could anythin~have I been done? VABDIVBJtt We knew, of course, that the odd• ver~ a9ainst ua. We were realists as much as anything, but we were determined to try to present nationlllly the viewpoint of the ~outhern states. And we did that throu9h the minority report. I've heard it mentioned that you considered a shift to [Adlai B.J Steven•on if a deadlock developed between Kennedy and Johnson. I• that true? \ VA10>%VJm1 'that•• not urue. I" fttot, we didn • t thiftk there / would be a cleadloaJ. Tb.er~• only one ~ember / of the Georgi& ~leqation, as I recall it, who was -14- 7 - . 1 for Stevenson. And that was Mr / JD.!~ -· I_ Blalock Who you met a few mi.nut.es aqo. 'through frienc!ahipf he was very clon to Adlai Stevenson•• brother.. in-law -.nc.! he ve>uld have, ha·J we not had the 5 wilt rule, would have liked to •upport Adlai Stevenson. STBWAllT1 But you didn • t anticipate a deadlock? VMmlVDt Bo, ve did not. W• felt that the peqte who var• tiutin9 Adlai Stevenson wt that Convention -we.re even more radical than were Kennedy foraea. But you had felt;ieven ~fore~that Kennedy had it I I wrapped up? VAlllmVJmt Of coursa~ we knew that he waa J.eacHrn9. We knew that by the time M 9ot to Lo• Aft9•l•• that he ' wu the leader and it would be hard to.__ _! __. .... !· : STJ!MAR!1 Before~ Kennedy'• actual nomination/10 you recall havin9 any aontactseither with Senator Kennedy or with aember• of hia immediate ataff, Robert Kennedy or anyon• elae? l -15- ltOt before the'ponv•ntion. Of courM Bob Troutman wtla around and he wa• the liaieon man between the xenn.edy headquarters and the Georgia delegation and would rel&• anything, any information, anything that he could ascertain to th• ttennedy headquarters. And we kl\.w that. ~-· v•ry open about it. Be'• been a lonvtime friend of aiae. S'l'DIARTs Would xenne~ have gotten any vote• on the second ballot fxom the Georgia d•l& VA!D)?VBRa Well, I might say that X reoall very clearly that Kennedy appeared bef~'Ae the delegation, the GeorcJia delegatio~~prior to the voting. We invit:.11 John•o~ ,. invited BWllphreyf ~ invited Kennedy and Stevenson to appear before the Georgia delegation. And as I recall, Senator Kennedy waa realistic:. He knew that he would not 99t any votes out of the Georgia delegation. He did make a pitch for support in the event that he were nominated. And X think by that time ,, be was ·pretty sure he was going to be nominated. -16- ftDfAllTa You mentioned a while ago the movement to nominate you •• the protest candidate for the vice preaidential nomination. sow dl4 thia originate, do you recall? VA11DIVBR1 Several of the governor• of the •outhern state• contact.S me and au9geated that I accept the nomination for the vice presidency in order to give the southern states a forum, :=...- an additional forum over the minority report, to present our poaition again to the nation over ll aationwide televi•ion. And I think j, had not Lyndon Johnson been the nomine~that t.hat could have developed. WW were in a very poor position to put up a protest ~ dandi- date when the man that we had supported on the f irat ballot suddenly became the vice presidential nominee. STEtfAR'l't Did you have any indication that he would be selected before • • • Of course X had read a few rumors, but at that '·'-· "· J \ \ \ -17- i .I --- - parti~ular time I did not think ao. • , • • • • . • /", .1 ;11 _...J , , '. . __;, L_J-1 t.:,un..' f t. -..JI S'l'&WAR'l' I Would /Symington or ~ Jackaon have bean acceptable to you as a viae presidential candidate? VAHDIVER1 NOt aa acceptable as waa Lyndon Johnson. 17.;, ~ o ,,,_..__--:f ~I~-] STEWART 1 And~ HWuphrey I\ I assume f"'Ouldn' t have been. ) VAHI>XVD1 Humphrey at that time would not have been at all acoeptable. You attended, l believe, a meeting of ~outhern 9ov~rnora in Kennedy's suite the morning after the nomination. Do you recall the major purpose of this meetin~ aad do you recall what your reactions were to the meetinq• VANDlVBR1 Yea. Bob Troutman called me after the President was nominated and asked me if I would attend a meetin9 with the nominee and if I would ask several aouthern governors to come along with recall, Governor[Erneat B.) Fritz Bollin9s from South Carolina waa close by ~d I did, I \ contact him and ask him to attend ahat nt.eetin9 I J J -19- at the request of the nominee. And aa I recall--I'm not sure whether Governor Buford Elli0¢on was there or not:) ~ut I believe I did aak him to attend. Of oourae~he was very strong for Lyndon Johnson. x•m not certain whether he attended or not. 'there were a number of other people ltke • • • 'there were quite a few 9overnors ther~ -- Governor [J. Lindaayl\Jr. J Almond of Virginia, J Governor Hollings of South Carolina, Governor (.J Edmondson of Oklahoma and 1 representing .s.] 11 the southern area. I recall that Mennen Williama was the.re. By ac:oident, wasn't it? VANDIVDa we "of course r<11<.1n • t know that he was there ) I br accident. I heard later that he was. But he wae there. Govemor [Abraham] Ribi there. Thoae are th• main one• that I recall. l._,'£D!J y ;, v !YI :J I remember aeeinq ·Ted Kennedy aa we came in I to the •uite. l -19- STBHARTa Was t1ae purpose of thie meeting to diacuas the vice p~•idential nomination? 'l'hat•a correct. And aa I recall, Senator Kennedy sat on the bed and atlled on me first amo~1 to auggeat who I thought would be the vice presidentialnomineef1Who would beat j help earry the ticket in the Sou~. I stated without equivocation that I didn't think he would oarry the South unless he did 9et Lyndon Johnson on the ticket because the entire South had supported Lyndon Johnson in the Convention·for the presidency. I felt that some of the other proposed candidates for the vice presidency would not help him carry the South, and said tp very plainly. As I recall, Governor Edmondson of Oklahoma agreed with me, GoVernor Hollings of South Carolina agreed and Governor Lindsay Almond of Virginia agreed. Governor Mennen Williams of Michigan very vigorolsly disagreed. He said that he didn•t think he could carry Michigan with Lyndon l Johnson on the ticket. Be was the main dis•enter. really. at the meetin9. 8TEWART1 Wa• it your impreaeion that Kennedy had already made up hi• mind on thi•? VANDIVBRt No. not at that time. At that time I didn't know of the previoua activitiea. I assumed our that the meeting was called to get a judgment and that he would make up hi• mind afterwards. l But as I underatood it later. a• event• d'wveloped, that he had called Lyndon Johnson earlier that morning prior to this meeting. So I preaWM that this cojfirmed his judgment. that he had made earlier that morning. STENAR'l'1 was there any discussion at this meeting of the platform, the civil rights plank of the platform? " f ' I ,. VANDIVElh very 1itt1a. as I rec:allJ.~• had pourG.d'; it out into the cauldron of politics~ 1i~ .(_ ; , ..__ Democratic ~arty. we of the South had been whipped. And although there was some bitterness.I \ J >. -21- don·• t ' recall that there was much discussed except for the fact that the South that had au)IDrted Lyndon Johnson for the presidency f ,,- ., I _:__/ . ~eeded some person who waa identified~/~·,.:·-.-~, the ,!Outhern reqion in order for the South -k_, ;{'-__QF r - ~carry the ticket. S'l'EWAR'l' I J>o you recall whether Kennedy asked for your support of the ticket at that time, for the support of all the governors in the room? VAllDIVBR1 J don•~ think he did. I don't think be did. I The main purpose of that meeting was to get the judgment of the various governors there on Lyndon Johnson or on who would be the candidate who could best carry their states. Did you have any other contact after this meeting with-at the Convention? VANDIVD1 No, not at the Conventio~ ~ not . with J(ennedy J himself. Of coursepwe were in contact with Troutman ta at all times. But rof course~there I 1 I • J -22- was a lot of bitterness over the civil right• f iqht. In fact, a great many of the Georgia delegation left immediately after Johnson was nominated, didn't remain in Loa Angeles for the acceptance speech, formal acceptance speech, which I believe was the next night. Right. In fact, X watlaaed it on television from &tlanta. ST»fAJtT1 Why exactly did you withhold your support from the ticket for a month after the Convention? ~ . VAlmIVBRt here were two reasons really. fte platform Lo on civil rig'bta waa particularly distasteful to the people of my state. That is the primary reason. 'the other was a reason of strategy. Had we come home and embraced the Democaatic ticket and t:he platform that was adopted at the Convention% don•t think the Democrats could ever have won it. So we came home and protested, told the people we were not satiaf ied, l -23- which we were not. And then when we did finally decide in the lnt.ereata of harmony to go all out to help the Democratic 'arty ~ I think there wa• a 9reater,nanimity than there would have been had we come home and embraced the platform and the nominees. STEWARTa During th6a perio~ did you have any contact with Senator Kennedy or people on hia ataff? VANDlVERt Prior to the time that we supported him, came out in support? STEWART• Between the time of the Convention and the time you ea.me out in suppet:t? VANDIVER I Yes, we did. As I recall it, we received a oall--I received a call as Governor from Senator Kennedy asking me to come to Washington to disausa his candidacy. James Graf! Who was Chairman of the Democratic Party and who i• L?"='"'"---,.< ,- .!. ,,. ]c .] again today Chairman of the Party, ~ Bob Rusael]A I who was my brother-in-law and who was national committeeman at that time, and I flew to Washington to have a confarence with Senator -24- Kennedy and senator Johnson. Prior to goinq to see Senator Kennedy and Senator JohnSOfttiI ) had some d!aauasion• about the support of the ~rty with Senator [Richard a.J Russell wi~ and/Senator [Herman E.] 'l'almadgeQ ~inae Lyndon Johnson wa• now on the ticket as the vice presidential nominee, I wanted their views, what their vote• were as to Kennedy becauae they had served in the Senate with him for aeveral years. The three of ua agreed that I, as Governor, at would be well for me to at least talk with him and determine what our course of action would be after the talk. Do you recall wha~is approach was at~his meeting? VAHI>IVDa Senator Kennedy's approach? / I - ··-., Right, what arguments he '@9•. ·-• c_:_ VAm>XVBRa Yea. We met in Lyndon Johnaon'• office, the Majority Leader's office in the Capitol)'and Senator Kennedy was there. The first thing we -25- did was ve called ln the photographer and .· ~- made a picture of Senator Kennedy and ·,_ __,,, Senator .Johnson and Kr. Gray and Mr. Ru•••ll and I. And then, as I recall, Lyndon Johnson was the main spokesmen of the two senator• because we had •upported himln the Convention. He was pleaiing for the •upport of the Georgia ~ Democrat• ~tf the national ticket. I recall will he said, "Brnie, if you/get behind Senator Kennedy and nie in this election I will never forget it. I will tell my children to tell my grandchildren never to forget what you•ve done to help the Party. •9fot. course f had a high regar~ for Lyndon Johnson, but I wanted to talk with the candidate-)because I had somethinq on my mind at that particular time that I wan~d to diacu•• with him and I didn • t want to discuss i~ with anybody else. You may recall that during the Eisenhower Administration, during the civil rights difficulties in Arkansa•11 l -26- that Pre•ident Biaenhower sent federal troop• into the •tate. Jly primary interest in wanting to diacn1•• thi• problem with Senator Kennedy A'.. ' waa that I, a• OOWernor. did not want · ~eral trooJ:'• sent into Georgia. I thought that we could handle our own affairs/ and I wanted to aeoure a promise from Kennedy that he would never eend federal troops ~ the ftate of Georgia if we supported him. So we went back into the little bathroom in Senator .0, , --<\_ /". ) f-:·' • \ ''·' '4 I JohnDn's officeAand I posed my problem to him and told him that certainly we could not support if he proposed to do the same thing in Oeorgia that Eisenhower had done in Arkansa~\1>ecause we did not want federal troops in Georqia and vwe wanted to settle our own problem• and we would. We wanted his cooperation 1 ~ rath&r than his &ending in o!· the troopa. And ~ he agreed to that. He did mention, he said, "We.11, maybe marshalla could handle th~roblem.• I r:--... I said, "We don't want any marahalla either. we -27- want to handle our problems ouraelves and we will.• So h• aqread to it • ..---.. Be aqreed both on marehalt• and • • • VANDIVER a T1'a t • • right. He agreed that they would never send federal troops nor would they ..nd marshal•. I said, "Well, I'll 90 home and think about it. Then we'll let you know.• S'l'BWAll'l' I Were there any other areas of the civil rights policies of the -adminiatration that were discuaseds for example, new legislation or any actions by • • • Of courae/,\ I knew that with the civil rights I platform that bad been adopted at the coavention that he would sponsor civil rights legislation. Of aourae!f.civil rights legislation had been Wponaored, historically, for many years~ I knew that he would be no exception. Our main reaeon for this conversation with xennedy was that I did not want Georgia to have the same image that Arkansas had. And he agreed to it without equivocation. -28- You wer• quite aatiafi•4 then with • • • ' I Well, I didn•t •romi•• Jmy support immediately. I aaic!, "J:.et me 90 home and think about it and diaau•• it with aome of my frieda and -tt_, __ we' 11 let you know.• Well, we did that. We left-I believe that vaa ln the middle of th• week. I came home and diacuaaed lt with aeveral member• of th• Georgia delegation ""-'~ :_~ con9%'•••, aeveral of ay political friend• and adviaon. And then on the following Monday at my ~ pre•• oonterena• I announoad publicly for the f irat time that we intended to support the national ticket.( it sort of shook up the political •truature of Georgia. fairly In fact I l•ft 111':1 offiee lltftrt early that day and went to the Executive Mansion. About t.h• middl.e ot th• afternoon) I got a call from 1 SenatoJ:" Kennedy and Senator Johnaon. . They /.lot tt.. . aourae,)' had already 90tten ~ word over the wire aervioee, that I had come out and supported the ticket. Th• fir•t question that Senator J -29- Kennedy asked me, he said, •aovernor, are you in the bomb shelter out at the Man•ion?" I said, "Well, I probably ought to be, Senator~. ~ings are in a rough situation down here in Georgia right at thi• particular time. But I'm not in the bomb shelter, I'm in the living room of the Mansion.• And he told me how much he appreciated what we'd done. Lyndon Johnaon wae there and he 9ot on the ,,.--... phone too and expressed hi• apprellaiation. So we went on from there. 8'.l'l.WAM'a Hadn't you bad a viait from Governor [Poster] rurcolo of Ha••ac::husett• during thi• period? And if so, was that at all related to this plea for your endorsement? VAR1>%VBR1 We were havin9 civil right• difficulties d°""1 here at that time' ' I believ•~ ~ractically during my whole administration we were having aome difficulty. No, thi• hatSilo relation to-- he did not come down here to make a plea for Georgia to support the Democratic ~arty. I l -30- think Governor rurcolo vaa in political trouble \:.A~ Jl at home ,1.1add ,\we had some civil right• J I f diffioultiea down hare ~ .Be ~u9ht it waa I politically propitiou• to come to Georgia and 9et a lot of publicity out of hi• visit. Of aou.raef aa r•rnor of another stat~ ·J I treated him with every courteay and at the same time told him privately that w6'd look after our affairs, he'd look after Maasachuaetta. Apparently you didn•t do hill much 9ood because h• lost the nomination for u.s. Senator. 'that'• correct. And a• I say, it "2la a play on his part to receive publi.c:ity which he thought would help him in Massachusetts. I aaw throu9h th• political ploy~ and, although we always treat viait1n9 governors with courtesy, that was about the extent of the ' I ,' \ l N' conversation. I did tell,\"-'\. that: we• d handle' our af faira and presumed he would handle hie h Massachusetts. -31- JU far •• the or9anization of the campaign here 1n Cl6or9ia, what exactly vaa your position? Were there any •ivnifioant ahan9•• or9anization-wi•• from previoua aampaigna, aay frcm the 1956 campaQJn? (1 ,,~~ . VAN1WBll1 -r J 9ot some of my c:loH polltlaal frienda t09ether-\and we organiz•d a oampaign. I ') \ r~ '1le S~r of the Bou••, George L. Smith, who i• again. Speaker of the Houae here in &eor9ia now-· we tot him to bead the campaign in aouth Gec>r41ia. We got •Y ·r -!-1 ohiAtf of •taff. GriffiD a. Bell, to be -a _1.._ ( •anaMJ•r of north Georgia. And we Ht up a really effective I>emo<:ratic organization. J ' l ,'. ; • .'\. ~ _c_ • [,, - : < I ( ' •_;. . By() the way, Griffin Bell ia ftOV -; ~ • " ;taie Court of Appeals. Re va• appointed by Pr••idtmt !Cannedy. We wanted the candidate to come to Georgia and we thought that th• be•t place he could come. • • • N1'con had come to Atlanta and had drawn a tremen4oua crowd. -32- s~. That waa very early, I think. \:::::) !'hat waa vJ;_· ~:r~~-- in the aampai~, Ld we ~ ~ ,_. thought that if we could relate Kennedy'• j ;_ / I I " • I • campaign to ARoosevelt-.• oampaip Nho waa } extremely popular in Georgia and aort of it a aecond native aont1:.hat/would be of political ) help to him. So we Ht it up for Kennedy to come to warm Springa, to speak at Wum lprin9a. A• I recall, be camef'and a.nator Talmadge and I mat him in Columbus. Jle landed in Colwaba•. W• went on tb• plane and met him before 1- vot off. crowd of people outaide the plane and he asked me, "Who are th••• people? Are these , l_:., .. .' . r people or are they mill people 7 L ~ Who are they?~uae he was expec:tin9 to make a little extemporaneous epeeoh there. we told him they were j uat Georgian•. '.l'hey were ju1t people from Colmibua, fraa around Columbus. So he made a 1ittl.e speech immediately after he got off the Caroline. -33- A very nice little apeeah, four or five minute•. Then we got in the car to 90 to Warm Sprin9a. 'l'h~treata were lined, really, from Columbus to Warm Springa. All the aohool ahil4ren bad been allowed to leave school and come by and wave.C/t1 recall particularly that/ llhen w • d 90 by a Negro achoo11\ that Kennedy would make an· extra effort to wave to them and on one or two aaaaions stopped the car and got out and shook hands with the Negro principal and 6f -.c.<. ._ ,_ , -<--/1 with some of the Negro children. 1, Senator Talmadge and I did not do that. we (bf coursel\W*r• not the gueat ot honor so we I sat in the car while he ahook hands with th! people along the way. But he got a real enthuaiaatic reception. 'l'hen we got to warm Sprin9s~here there waa a tremendous STJ.'PMARTa Were you surprised at the size and enthusiasm of the crowd? -34- VANDIVER a Franklyf\I waa. And amon9 the crowd ware aome youn9 girls that might or might not have been of voting age that j uat went into hyaterica. 'l'hat waa my f irat experience with the hy•teria of the ladi•• .~ which I mu•t aay caused me to •it up and take notice of the attraction that he aeemed to have for the ladies. we went to the little White r19ht ~ ~ -r:;iJ ~ou••· We bad a platfoxm/in front of ~ 4 ~ittle whit• hou... W• had 9o1Mrnor• from several atatea·-there~ I remember .John Patterson, (!) the Goveroor of &labama, waa there. Senator Talmad9e, of course, waa then. Senator ausaell waa not there. 'lhere were several congresamen there aa I recallf' I don't remember wiah one a. We had a larqe and enthuaiastic cro~which turpriae4 .., frankly. I introduced icennecty. I must say that the aritiaiam that waa levelled at me in the introduction waa ""'C..-11.:, r probably Y-iolent. A• I aaid, we were tryin9 -JS- to relate r:ennedy to Roosevelt. So I bad talked about Roosevelt moat of the time durin9 my introduction '.~d what he bad meant I to Georgia ~ and what a )I>emoc:rat he was. Finally I 9ot around to introducing Kennedy as pepresentin9 the same political philosophy aa Roosevelt. Be made a great apeec:h. l was real 1mpresnd with hi• speech. I watched '-, _ ~ h~I was behW the lectwrn and was behind the President 1\and I waa able to see the crowd I and the crowd reaction. there was tremendous enthusiaam among those present, and I saw a great many of my political leader• in the audience, some of ~~ /b~d~~{expected to be there. Jtone thing that l noticed~-- that •~rprised me, I bad thought he waa a tremendoualy polished speaker and , ~ibb all of ) the eampaivnin9 that he had done(!that k would I be typical of the campaign speech and attitude of a normal politician in Georgi ~ ~ut I noticed that hi• hand shook tremendously and -36- hia 199 ahook. Be seemed to be extremely frighteneci;looking at hi.sa from behind. And yet hia speech didn't indicate that at all. I don't believe th• peq.\e out in front knew that he waa that exaited or was frightened. ~ ', -£tDJlft't --- "-·-·--- - ·-- VANDIVER• 1 However, u an old politician, you watch the aationa of the oandidat~and I noticed tlukt 1n the course of the apeech. After hi• epeecrh{IW• finally 9ot him through the crowd, carried him to ra Grange, Georgia. Meantime the ~oltne had flown b> La Gran991" and they picked him up in La Gran9e and carried him to hi• next speaking engagement. But he made a tramendou• impreaaion. Did you become more enthusiastic with the ticket as the aampaign progl:'esaed? VAimIVBJla X have ~o admit that I did. I think the - ----~ I ~ amo\tll-~Qfllldl 1 enthuaiaam probably became g-reater at the f lrat Ni~on-Kennedy debate. It looked to me then that be had a chance to -37- / win. A• I recall it, we had th• Southern Governors• Conference, a meeting in Little R-'-- ~ Arkanau. We had all the ~outhern governor• there together. And moat of u• watched the f irat Kennedy-Hixon debate. I think all of us were fearful that Nixon would just eat him alive. But he held himself ao magnif iaently that I think moat of the ~outhern governor• who were •upportin9 hill began to 9at some enthusiaam after that firat debate. S'RlfAR'J.'1 Did I.yndon Johnson campaign 11111ah in Georgia? VAllDIVD• Yea, he llad a campaign train 1:hat came thro\19h the South. Be was probably ~ moat effective cam.paiper in the South beaause ~• , knew the ) - aouthernera probably better than- anybody aln in the country bein9 a !,OUtherner,-- a midweaterner;. x don't Jmow exactly which he -- I i•~ ~ut hi• grandfather lived in Georgia and wa• sheriff in one of the adjoining aountie~ \ here back prior to the War between the ·~•. •••I \ -· . \ -38- So he had aome root• in Geor9ia. He was a very effective campaigner. J remember I joined th• campaign train over in South Carolina. Hy brot:i.M-in-law, Bob Russell, who wa• very aloae to Lyndon Johnson { had joined the train ~x believe taomewhere in J J North Carolinau-- and we made several atopa in S<>uth Carolina. Then we made one in .... 9oecoa, Oeo1"9ia. We made om in Gainesville, Georgia and then we came to Atlanta here (U;. where ~ had a very enthuaiaatic erowd and where I intDoduced Lyndon Johnson to the c:r~'\ and he made a speech from th• back of the train. S'l'EWAR'la Did you hllvenany other contacts with Senator Kennedy'• campaign headquarters, with Robert .r..- . . ..,...- j ,&...... ,,,;.._ I f-.!..) Kennedy or, Larry O'Brien or any of those people durinq the aampaj.911? Yes. DUring the campaign~ ~nne~ ea.me down and met with a group of political leaders from the southern states, and Larry '7" -39- O'Brieb came with him. Bob, at tha':: time, made a nice inlpresaion on the political leader• who were praaent. I recall that A Jira. V!Jldiver and I werw with him that ni9ht{' and we ate and were talking about our children. He had quite a f.w ehildren(and we had three. we made a little trip out to the Governor'• Manaion and got our children out of bed and let them meet Bobby Kennedy and Hr•. Kennedy. l think he made a fairly effective appearanee down bera. 8'?11.WAR'l't Were your relation• quite cordial and quitr smooth at that time? VAS>XVBR1 With Bob Kennedy? STEWAR'J.'1 Yes, and with O'Brien? VANDIVBRa Yea. We made the transition from fighting him to supporting him fairly easily. our rela tiona were cordial. We were in touch with him several times, many times during the course of the CMlpaign by telephone, one of whioh I related t.o you earlier. X / -40- think really the thing that helped President Kennedy carry the @.outhem •tates was the meeting that we had, whiah I in•tigated, of th• _!outhern governors; a rally her• in Atlanta. We invited the •outhern governors to be present. Among tho•e governors we had Farria Bryant from Florida, we had Fritz Holling• of South Carolina, we had Lindsay Almond of Virginia, we had-let• a see, we had some more--Bufford~ Ellington of Tennessee, we had Luther Hodges of North Carolina. Eaah of the governors made a speech to thia 91"Dup. 'l'his waa two or three weeks before the election/ ;1 and I think qanerally it brought more ~thusiasm than anything else that was done in the whole South. I S'l'EWART I / Reliqion_;t assume ~ was one of the biggest ./ ,( problems in Sfeorgia. / VANDIVDs Xt waa;:o as big a problem in Georgia_ as it was in r'ome other states. I . i ~ - ' \ ... -41- S'l'DfAR'l' I Oh really? Well, how significant a problem waa it? VANJ.)%VD1 Well, it was a problem. l think Jhad Kennedy ) not been Catholic~e would have carried the I state l>y a much largev\majority. But Georgiana are reasonaaly tolerant and religion is not the factor lt is in some other 'outhern atatea, ./ .. . . ~ /' ~ . / . ~ Texa• for instance. I recall that Al Smith 7 carried Geor9ia wtaan he wae the nominee; 1'ftd ha wa• a C.tholic.. So we didn•t 9et a lot of kieJcback on that. Of course most of the Proteatant minister• were conaerned and aome of th811l even preached from the pulpit about it. But l don't think--oh, I'm aure it coat him several thousand votes, but I don•t think it was a real problem in Georgia. Could the Democrats have won without Johneon•s presence on the ticket? VANDXVERt I don't think so. I don't think so. I thinki,1had not Iqndon Johnson at that time, . I with his associations in the South, been on the -42- ticket;1that Georgia might: have gone for Nixon. ) waa there a fear, were you fearful that some ,. ")\'- (> of the elect~ would not vote for Kennedy ( Johnson? I think only aeven of the twelve had aupported the ticket and five were holding out, but eventually did vote for the ticket. Of cour•e, it ran through m.y mind that there waa a po••ibility that they wouldn't. But the (~.J aean we were , • cattied it state -~d gone o~~,~~~~~; ~ennedl';f'Y a ai!jable • • • I thin k it wa• t:he second h1ghaet margin in the country next to !Ulode Island.· Any elector certainly ahould follow ~!-. (. ~_ state• a desirea. Moat of them were pretty good friends of mine/land I felt like they ) would •upport the ticllet. STEKAlt'l't And they sl.1 did. Could we discuss the whole matter of your potential appointment as Secretary of the Army? Bow did this posaibility arise? waa there any discussion of it before the election? VANDIVBR1 Mone at all before the election. In fact~it -43- was never discuaaed until .-.I believe !\December I / of 1960. Bob Troutman, a9!lin ;es I indicated ) earli•D)WU a c:loae friend of mine, was the ma1n promoter of the pos•iblity of my being r ' '-' tend.ad the appointm.nt of Secretary of the Army. And I must-with my military backgm und{' l lllU&t adld.t it did hold aome attracti.ona for me. X had been Adjutant Oeneral of Georgia for six years and waa extremely intereated in the ailitary. However, Bob Troutman was the primary instigator of it and talked with Kennedy about it. 'l'be thing reached such proportionlh- I diacuaaed it with Senator Russell and wlth COngresuian [Carl] Vinson- the thin9 reached such proportions. • • • It waa~ll out of proportion to what actually happened really. Conqressman Vinaon made a •tatement that he waa certain I would accept the appointmantr. andt0f course !'it had I I I n.ot progressed' to that atat.e at all, really. \ \ \ \ -44- headlin•• aaying I would resign and b• appointed. And it had not 9otten to that atage. 'l'hey were wrong. I believe he was at West Pala Beach at the time- and he asked me if I wa• interested in 1Min9 secretary of the Army. I told him that I had some 1ntere•t11but I felt that I had a ) job to do in oeorvia that 1 couldn't 9ive up because I'd been elected for a four year period~and I couldn't see how I could reaign as ~vernor and accept the appointment, but that I did.have interest in the military and had some military background that I thought would be effective. But I indicated to hiioy- and that wa.a late ore night when he called.,- l indicated to him that my primary reaponsiblity waa to the •t.ate of Georgi~ and I intended to stay on. '!'hat was abou~ the way ~e thing ended. -45- I had a ~errible time convincing my friend• that l dicJn•t Lnten~ to do something like that1,1 an4 I had a tremendou• legislative ) battle the following session a• a result of that. Si'EWARTa I• that right? 11.4-)::> Well, thlt man who~Lieutenant Governor at that time waa Garland T. Byrd\.and thad I _J ) reaitjn~he would have aucaeeded to the 9overnorahip 'tlnd ~hare wet1• a great many 0 people iD Georgia in the 199islature who di4n't want to turn the budtJetary control over to Garland B»rd. So they proposed have / legislation that would/take awayfrom the ~vernor completely bud9etary control. Of c:ourae I had to fight day and night for several \leeks. And finally we beat it down about two to one. Bu~• a result of thi• publieit~ about my poe•ibly accepting thia Secretary of Army appointment~I got J intodif ficulty at home and had to battle my way out of that one. STBWART1 It'• unfortu.nate~of courae, but the •torie• ) have alwaya been that the po•ition waa offered ~and then it waa withdrawn because of '} the opposition of civil ri9hta leaders and aorae norther J ~iberala. VANDIVD1 That was never true. He never made the t.ender and l never told him anything except the truth, that l did have aoaMt intereat but that -.y primary intere•t wa• with the state of Georgia. But he never made the tender~r did I aay I would .J aocept it.. 'there was never any diacuaaion of any other poeition, waa there? VMmJ:VD.a No. He wrote me a letter, which I have •o~• J\ in which he said that he hoped that at the aonalu.aion of ay ac!mini•tl:'ation •• ~rnor ] I would take aome poaition. And that wa• about-- well, he did put me on th• Civil Defense Coaaittee. I wa•·ahairman of the National ouard Comaittee . ' of the Governor'• Conference and on the Civil Defense Committee of the Governor'• Conference. , Be put me on with Hel•on Roekefaller and ' Pat Brown and aeveral other• on thi• National Civil Def.a.• Advisory Committee. -:> What • • • _____ - STJLWAJl'l' I r ·------·· ·---· --·-· ----- xt waa a non-oompenaatory po•ition. It waa juat an advisory co1111itt••· ITIWAM'a Do yau recall what your expectations ware, •ay, in January of 1961 aa to which way the Kennedy Adnainiatration would move in the whole area of civil ri9ht.a? VUDIVBlh Of courM I was hopeful that they would uaa a mat'1.re and a conaervativ• judgment in their approadh to the probl... l wa• quite pleasantly .. aurpriaed, frankly, at hi• methodAt:llet·h• did _,) I approach th• problem. He dtcSn•t pu•h it, as you may reaall. 8t the beginning of hi• Admini•trationj I think mainly because he needed the help of some of theee 'outhern m~rs of congress to get hie program• going. . ...--..-.., Ba dei.ayed Ltt and,\had he lived~ don't think we : ) ) ) 1fildcdxpx would hav4)fbad the Civil Rights Act of 1963. -47- You don't think it would have ••• VANDIVD1 I don't think it would have paseed. I think the ~o\Sthern del99ation could have defeated it. However, when Lyndon Johnson proposed it ~ ·\ with hi• legislative knowledge, hie personal ') . knowledge of the Senate and the Houa, made 1 it doubly difficult to defeat. STBWAR'.1'1 Di"l'ou hav• any diaauaaiona with the Kennedy people before the Inauguration relative to the inte9ration of th• Unlverelty of Geor9ia that took place before th9 Inauguration? VAHDIVBRr Non• whacsoeve.r. None whatsoever. None at all. And the whole thin9 waa over and done with by the time of the Inauguration, I believe. VAN9IVD1 Yea, it waa. A• you may recall, we had a court order from the middle diet.rict of Georgia, Jud99 [William A.) Bootle, Biaenhower•a appoint.ee ~had i••~ed an injunction 1n which ha named certain peoplflt including the Governor of Georgia /~d ) ) enjoined them from intet•ering with it. Of course -48- we had aertain laws in Georgia amon~ ' th• at.atut• book• that would prevent it. we hat! to make th• fundamental 4'ciaion, we had to make it hurriedly, •• to what aourae we would take. So I went before the joint aeaaion of the general aaaembly at night, the firat time we'd ever bad any night ••••ion of the 9ene~al asaembly.--And it went on statewide tele"81on and radio-alad made proposal• by which we oould comply with federal law. Portunately the.. propoaala were adopted by the legialature, We I and al.moat unaniaoualy. ~ realized that th• time had aome. Everybody •1•• 1":~ ~8!, I / , talking about "1ti• problem when we ~ided ~l'.'d ·-· i ./ '7abet ted: So t.'~• repealed all th• lawa on the '-....:::.- -- / I book• tbat t.nterfered with the orderly proced~r•. i t '.. -\{ And I thir,f1e X signed -. law the day before I I ./ f left Atl~~ta for Waahin9ton for the Ina~guration. / ' Wha~ 9"•rallyAwa• your overall poaition on ) ,'' ) ! ' /_ I the , ~1• •ubj~ct of aobool 1nt99ration ' I •' th~ouvho~~ - the Kennedy A~~ist.ration? .. _ / .!,:'. / 1 ' -49- I I A VANDIVJR1 Well, of oour••~I wa• opposed to inteqration of I ~ ) the schools until we could make an orderly pro9reaa, brin9 the whit4faahools and colored achoola up to a point where they both would be equally 9ood without mixin9 the •ahoola. I made aome atatementa during my campaign ~h • J ~ -· I' I still haunt me to a certain extant. However, under the lawa that were on the atatut• book• in Georgia at the time I ran for Governor, had they not bean knocked down by the Supreme Court,i,we could have maintiined a99r.. ation. we had th• question to decide, 'Whether or not we wanted to handle our •ituation like it waa handled in ~ttl• Rock, Arkan•a•JlbY the poasil::>il1ty of using federal forae from th• outside1or doing it ourselvea. I preferred that we handle our own problems ourselves, a• I had indicated earlier to Kennedy When I secured hi• promiae that he would not send federal troops ialto Georgia. And althoug>lit waa -so- a very diffiault period of tim~J\I think Geor9ia wut through that period with more grace and rnor• dignity than any of therother atatea in the South. 1 thinkJPOli tioally; ,. aix month• after we made that deaision11lad l been up for election or running for public .l_~}J. would have been defeated :e_~!__•~u~~~DCJ M:ke 1 know I would have at that tU... But c!llrin9 th• period of th• next year1.1when the :J . ,..,. people of Qeor9ia aaw what happened in Oxford, Hisaiaaippi1 th• riot• and the deatha and the injuri•~t.-. when they aav what happened in ) Alabama when this fellow very clOtAaiahly •tood in front of the with Bob Kennedy moved aeidej' they decided maybe it I that Georgia had handled/in the moat forthright j l beat way. And l think when l left offiae· had I ) I been up for re-election· I could have carried the ata~\v~t~: ( / 8TBNAR'f 1 were you involved in the situation at Lockheed re9ardin9 the--thera waa a new contraot coming I I ·; -51- up and there wa• a of. th~ pres.---. that the contract wouldn't 90 through becaun of complaint• that were being r•ttatered by th• NAACP [Nf(tional Asaoaiation for the Advancement ot Colored People] and other people? VABDIVBR.1 '!bat waa lllOr• of a problem between the Defense Department and federal 9overnment and Lockheed than it waa between the •tat• and Lockheed. I recall that Lyndon Jobneon made some overture• to Lockheed and that they resolved that problem without any difficulty. so you, the '°"ernor•a office didn't get involv~? VAHl>IVBlh Ho. I was not direc:tly involved in tha~ \ithouqht the fact that we had Lockheed wae certainly one of the factor• that made us realize that we had to make that deeiaion to comply with court order. '!he statute book• provided ~~o•i.99 . _ f0Jl I aohoola . ~~ \they couldn't get engineers to come from California to Georgia when there waa a prospect of the school• being closed. It -52- ~ ' \ • I I fj5 , . 1 · _1>~~ot onlyALockbeed but be whOl} of : -· . very real eoonomia int•r••t in it. too. I think th• way that we handled it inspired confidence in *Jal induatriea~ J think we•ve grown ln Georgia and here 1n Atlanta probably f a•t•r than acme of th• other !Outhern atata• becau.. v. did h*ndle it in a dignified way. ftDIART• What generally waa your approach or your ~ Po~icy J.ft/t th• vllole area of votin9 activiti••J and particularly ~ •~it•~ the Juati~ Departmut ~ey ~~~ \b.~ · · fllinf and th• enoourqe ment that the Ju•tice Depan:mant vaa 9ivin9 to people Vho were organizing Yater reviatration drive•? VAllDJ:VBRt Of cour" we had certain •tatutes)on the book• relative to votin9 r1c;hta. we put the Attorney o.nera1•1 office behind the local offict..1• 1n every occaaion wbare there vaa a C!hall•ft98· STDfAla't Did you have any contaot~with the Attorney General er people ill t:he Juatlee De.. rtaent on votin9 •53- - ./ ri9ht•t 1/:.c~'~ __; / VANJ>IVD1 J bad •ome contact• with Bob Kennedy on aoae problems that were indirectly related, I presume, to tboae auita. You may or may not recall that we had •OJM demonat.ration• in Albany, Geor9:La about that time. auit• a few of the demon•trator• ___, ' wer• jailed. l rememl>er I waw down in Albany~ , / it mu•t have been Bovember or Dec·~~' and 9ot a oall that Kennedy wa• aallill9 •· J went ! back 1n 178.f'A.be talked to ae about the poaaibi.11 tie• of try1ng to aecuxe the relea•• of theM local l~and I told bill without any equi J vooation tthat they bad to abide by Georgia lawar and J.f they cU.. d not want to; I was not 90in9 ) i ) to intuven•/\ and did not. ftJMkRT t l>id you have any other contaot with him that you recall? VMU>?VBaa With Bob Jtennedy or with the President? l'l'BWARTa With RObert JCennedy. VAMDIVBJh 'that'• about all that t can recall with Bob ~~dy. ~ - -54- Then I had some more aontacta with Preafdent Kennedy. STBWAJ.Tt Could you daeoribe tho••? % went over the appointment book• fram the White Bouse and I have at lea•t two of th~ there may have been more. There waa a meeting on the foultry 1arift in J\lne of 1962. Do you recall thia? I r•c:all it '1'he BUropean coau:aon market waa· VAHX>XVBlh /Yery well. :; ... . doin9 averythln9 pos•ible to cut out the iaportation of produats, a9rioultural product• ~ from United States into th• common market. the - - Qt oourae Georgia ia the lu9eet po\tltry producer in the United Statea, more than any other •Ute. And our poultry, the part that .i we were uportinCJ mto the European countries' wa1•very1ubatantial part of --our.buein•••· So we 9ot the . ~lt.ry leaders, and X called the Preaiden~ and asked if we could diacuaa our ( probl_. with him. And we did. A& I recall, ;- I fol.lowed ap on it with \telephone call~ fxblll \ ' -55- - (~ daya, maybe weeka, late~~· advi•ed me that he had written Chancellor (Konrad] Adenauer a letter tn which ha had very llUbtly au99eat~ that if th•y diecriminat-4 a9ain•t,.-- a9rioultural product• in the United lt.au•/ th&t we might j • move some troop• out of Germany, which they - .t"· ~ '-...... ·- did not want at all at that t~ I I don't think he made any threat~ but merely au99eated the poW.Wli;;,,-that we had t.o cooperat9(f''1;". I ~had our forae•~and ve had aome product• we needed to aell in the OClllllOl1.. -market • ftJlfART 1 Were you 9enerally in •IJl"HIMD'lt with th• Adlllini•tration'• proposal• on the Trade Bxpaaaion Aat and th• handling of, for exaaple, the textile a9reement which relat•d to it? VAN»IVB&a 'l'be t.extil• agreement ca••ed con•iderable diffi cultiea, It wa1 one of our primary problema, 7 .I • • (., .~ -1 ..{-, ,. ' '• feally, the ~port~t· ~'f Japan••• 9ood• into the united St.ate•. It affeoted our textile induatry in Georgia to a tremendous extent. we, of cour•e, oppoaed it. Later, several later durin9 the yeara Johnson Admini1trationA..} -56- we had more favorable. they had more favorable 199i1lation. STll«ARTt I notic-4td thi• Buropean trade ,i••ion in 196~.ii ~· tbi• at all ralat.ed tc anythin9 th• Adainiat.ration wa• doing? VAliU>IVDa Well, not partic:ularly, exoept it waa an effort on the part of our leader• here in Georgia to let the, priaarily the port• of Bu.rope, the CJr••t port.• ofturope know that we had two port• in Georgia, that there were other porta 1n the united State• other than Bew York. so we apant thr" ..ma over there and met with all the port official•, th• main official• in Europe and antJland, Germany, HOlland, Bel9iwa, France and Italy. It wa• the sort of thing that I thou9ht the state ahould take the initiative on. And I did write the Pr••ident a letter about it. and send him •01Mt mat.rial that told about our itinerary() ~ got a very nice Jitter from him in which h• aaid he'd read it and waa quite interaated. -57- S'RWART1 aut the Co111Derce Department waan•t apecifically 1nvolve4 ln it? ~· llO. 110, lt wa• a atate activity, a atate aat1on really. ITBWAM'• You were on the Governor•• Civil Det•n•• Co.Utt••• was it? VAHDIVD1 That'• corr.at. ITDfAJ\'la ••• there ft.hytbing ou•atandin9 or anything aignifioan.t rou can recall about your aativitl••• anything of any note? '--P VAJlJ)lVD a Tea air. % certainly recall t.h1•~ and will as lon9 u I live. I happened to be in waahlft9t,on at the height of tlw CUban aiasile criaia. And ae a membe:t of the Civil Def~ CODDitte.--Nelson Roc:lcefeller waa chairman W th• o0raraft~ at ~· t~and when the cr1•1• . '') \ began to bQlld up/~l•on called a meetin9 o.f '. ) th• qovunor• whe were ~r• •f that dc;>mM'ttt.•• c.> ~ ~· went to Wabi~t<.n ~ diaeu•• What tb~ •tatea might possibly do in the event of a~tack or criaia. l>Urin9 the aourae ot the meeting there l ·- •. -se- we ~ called the President and aaked for an audience t.o di.cu•• it wit.h him. Thia was, I beliwve, on • Friday or saturday_Sand lt wa• reaahin9 really a ereacan4o. Nelaon Roak•feller waa the spokesman a• chairman of the civil Defense Comittee. We met with the President for aome forty-five minutea. r , ... ' _(1 • ., J_ (: ('\' ,., , • o _ .,...,,.. .' ::_ " X recall that Governor ~ tat arown 'wa• there ( maylte one other 9overnor. ht tb4l thing that I reoa11 ao•t i• that Helaon Rookefell•r wa• almo•t 1n a •tat.e ot panic. • • r STl:WAM't rteally ~ • • • over the poeeibility of miaai1•• in Cuba. Evidently his people in New York ..r• ao excited about it and had applied pressure on . him..- o, ::but he really was almost )~I would ••l'A)'- 1n a •ta.ta of panic. t looked at. the President and hi• calmneaa aa contra.at•d with Welson Rockefella~who had been a candidate for Preaident eaxly in the campaign-remember&• ) -59- and Nixon had had aome aort of a conferenae@ I looked at Kennedy and I looked at Rockefeller and X thanked God that Kennedy waa Preaidertt and not Roek•f •ller becau.. I had never seen a man in a period of c~i•i• who waa more cala, who was thinkin9 clearer. l know that he [NIK 11 1.), S r.f had wr1tten ~Khru9hchev. Be told ua that h• hat! written him. Ha aaid that b• didn't know ....._,... What the reaction would b9J-.; that we ai9ht or ;•t en innediate reepons•/ -.xa:t th• cri•i• or emergency aipt 90 on for some period of tira9. Be just didn't lcnow. But th• thin9 that I rem«aber moat was hie calmn••• in crlaia. I think the thin9 that l adlllired moat about JCennedy va• what I aaw that day) bflcause that waa hi• lll()•t diffioult hO'lr and I was privil99ed to a.. hilll · - . · I STEWART' Let me ask you 'bro \ fairly general question• end then we can wrap thia ap. Did you mW• the feeling that Pr••ident JCennedy fully ut,lder- stood th• viewa of people lik• yourself and:1oth•r , l -60 southern governors on the whole civil right• problem? - , I 11 ' ' VANDIVBRt Yea. Maybe ~-~b8'i1: som~ record of it--I wrote the President a letter after he made hi• •peeoh in Ju.n:J:' maJdn9 hi• civil right• proposals. As you may recall • • • S'J.'J!:WART I That' a '6l. VANDIVBlh Thfa wae '63, June of '63. l wrote him a letter and I waa very muoh--1 va• already~ of ' } cour&8J)out Of office at.Siia po nt. But I ) waa very greatly exercised by the ' fact that we had thi• restaurant down here known a• i ibbi • aeataurant and the Negroes had demonstrated and had conducted themselves in such a mat~er aa to almost inflame the entire population of Georgia. They had gone into thi• aaan•e privat.,Property, foreed their way in, had expoaed themaelvea in his reataurant, -, /\ had urinated on the tal:>lea; they ha d just 9ot~='- . completely_ out of control. I auppoae it waa that incident that cauaed me to write a letterr -61- to the President in which I propoaed thia new civil right• propoaal a• re9ardin9 private bualneaa and private enterprise. I aent it to Larry O'Brien becauae bavln9 been Governor I know sometimes theae thin9a can be, some secretary can answer it.. ;& never 9•ln9 to · 9et to th• man unless aoaael:,)ody calls it to hi• attention. So I aent the letter addressed to the freeident ln care of Larry O'Brien. About three or four day• later I wa• in 11y home in Lavonia and waa out on the lake with •Y eon who waa about fourteen who wa• out •ki1n9ii and ) ray wife aaae over to the lake and told me that Preai4ant Kennedy waa trying to reach me. So 1 went back to 1111 the hou•• and returned the call. He 9ot Oil the 11.n• and tol• me he bad received .,, letter and h• understood m.y problem from a at.ate atan4point but that he had a national probl- that h• had to deal with.CjtAa an aaide, I might tell you a little funny part ot thi• story. My aoa amne back with me. AndAat ) -62- /\ that time J believe it waa-4~~ reoora had eome out iaitat!n9 the Preaident. Be had liatened to thi• reaord many/'88.DY time• /I ) ) and h• took great deli9ht in 1m.itatin9 Preaident and did it very well. so 11 Kennedy~ 1 •• ve were comi119 back froa the lake/he J aaked me, he aaid, •Daddy can I 90 upataira and plck up the receiver and listen ln lleoau•e thl• will pr~ly be the only time I will .ver hear a Praa14ent of"' the United State• talk over the telephone.'' I told hill Y••• that' it would be all r19bt if he•d '}becauae there be real quiet1 M waan•t anythin9 that we were 901nt to diacuaa that I didn't want hi.JI to bear. tfbe Preaident started rig'ht . ~ -/- into tb9 telephone W'h-&t-fib• had on a national levelJAftd l said, "Well, Kr. Preaident we've got a bell of a aituat1on down here. 'th• thing• that you're propoeing are just inflaain9 the people. we•ve had thi• incident -63- down here that baa further inflamed them and ve•r• juat in a hell of a meaa.• B• eaid, -We're ln a hell of a .... up here in Waah1n9ton.• Be aaid, n'f'he Negro leader• are puttin9 preasure on •• to come forth with acme poaitiv• civil right• progr.... • I aaid, "Well, Mr. Pre•ident, don't you the know that/Negro leader• are irreaponaibl• J' and whoever happened to be Preaic!ent at the ti.lie the aaae aort of pressure would be ) put on you, that they are COllJ>l•tely lrreaponaible. lfbey will oppo.. you.• Be aaid, •1 know. I know. !hey booed Bobby laat week.• Of coarae my aon waa 11•teniD9 upsUira and vh•n be mentioned Bobby ~wbO wa• aleo mentioned in the reoor4 ~ 1 heard him fall to the floor up•tair• h• wa• lau9hin9 90 hard. If you recall, the Retro leader• had 9one by the Juatice Department and had booed Bobby at the Juatic• ..,,partment. That was • week before th6• i ' t.~i~one oonveraat.l.o: .11U1.yVay, we diacua•ed / -64- lt !or, I think, probably thirty minute• over th• telephone. Be under•tood ay po•itionfbut at the aa. time he had a national probtAll that he aa14 he had to dMl with. Of couae, •• a pra~ioal 'J c politician. J realized that be did have.--. But neverthel••• J wanted hill to Jcnow that •ome of hi• voters didn't t ..1 the aZlllMI way that other• did. And he li•tened very carefully. Be vaa a very vara peraon, a the ability to Wlderetand your probl- even thosa9h he diaa9reed vith ~. frequently heard it said that the Preaident did ha.- .,.. difficulty really underatandin9 the motivation of acme !_Out.hem poli~ician. · I think probably 110ra tbe l*>Pl• in eonvr•••- why they insisted, vhy they were. • • • ID bi• v1w they were ao raaaonable on moat other -65- economic and for•19ll affair• probl... , but yet when it came • • • VAllDIVD1 Th• Pr••identt• probl• was tbi•. I belleve h• ha• in the atate of Ma• ..chu••tt•, he ~ had ebout-W.~per cent of the population •• 11e9ro. In GeOr9i• it'• cloH to 3D _.Wl1a11itt•z1111•1W'.f~ per cent. We've 9ot acme comti•• 75' in Georg-la .a wbare 1 t • • ...... , ,_.,, ..,,._,.,fl!W••• per 1 cent. An4 if you lnt99rate the •c:bool• there you'll ju•t have a Be9ro achool. '!bat•• all there'll be. Yo\1 can't •lte SOll9thin9 excellent by putting 80IMtbin9 that l• far frOll excellent all topther. •• had been ral••d with thl• probl•r we knew the probl•llo ~ we felt that it woal.4 r•aolv• ltaelf by evol:tioa rather than by revol~ionary atatutea. Of oourae ha vu under great_. .. pre.. ~ to 9et aoaethin9 done b ~· the 1te9ro. And be di'*'t under•tan4 th• probl- becau•• he vau•t ra~ed with it. We bad 9rown Gp with th• problem. We Jcnew about it from th• time we were born. I can underetand Vhy be would have difficulty. Do you f••l. thoup, that both ha and Gther• ill the -:;.admini~etaion •4• a •ufficient •ffort to try to 9et the viewpoint• of people lilt• youraelf? Or 4o J'O" feel, on ~ other hand, that ti. people la the South •d• anogp of an effort to aake their Vi.Mf8 known to hill. VAlll>IV&aa Well, of c:ourae~110at of them did it publicly. Aftd~, of com:•~ be '°uld not U8Wer atat.... ntll that 8om9 politician bad made publicly, and l don't blame hia. Be ao :ldn't do it ~ I l' l(J."' p\lblialy. But where a friend of hij). had 900• o~ Oil a lillb to support bia auah aa I had_)'eXPr•••ed private conc•rD/t;a• •oon aa . -~ .-c '- tbe-~a :oa.e to hla h9 p1ct9d up th• phone 'I an4 called and tried to k tell • what hl• p~l• waa~ied to uaderataad vhat our problem vaa. - I appreciated. thatJeveJ'l thou9h ". l , -67- we were poles apart on what we both believed. But there vaa comaunie1ation. That'• •o•thin9 that we haven•t had very m.aah of wlth 90Jle of the other prealdenta. ITJJIAR'la Other than the meeting• and the conver•ationa · that. you •ve -ntioned. were there any other contact• that you can reclll with th• President hi... lf? VA1mIVD • I recall one otber ti£; 18 wban I aav hiJI, and thi• vaa right after we had 'had oar dlff ioulti•• in the oeor91e leqlalatUI"• OYer the 1nt99ration of the aohoola. I went ~o the i:nauprat1on 1' and ay wife and I vent to the lnz 1••~; Ball at the Sheraton •laaa. 1 believe it waa th• Wardman Park at that tlM. TJwy had four or five Snau9aral l1811• around the cit~. Be went to all of th8ll and apent a few ainutea. But the Sheraton Park wae the largeat. My vit• end I went there~nd moat of the CJOV•rnora ) that l knew were th•r•1 Abe Ribicoff and quit• a few of th• othera. Ba c ... ln and waa at.anding ... -...... .. -68- ~ I up fairly clo•• to the orchestra and;'•milin9. The SecretyService bad bia in pretty 9ood tow. B• recognised --• hadn't Mt Kr•. vancU.ver at that tllle-be reaogni1:ed .. and aac!e a move over to tMMr• I l.fUld th• va• ) Searety Service people jaiped in between. 'l'bey didn't know who I waa. JIV'ldently he told th• that it vaa all r19ht, lt waa an 014 friend. Aad ao w talked for a -1" I I tole! hill what a great,--.,.,,. l tht.Dk lt prol>ably will 90 down ln hiatory •• Ol\e of the 9reauat in hiatory. Be waa very pleaHd by the faat that we'd COiia. we mentioned the probl- we had 1n Atlanu. h•t a couple of ainutu• oonveraation. 1'1'~1 ' there'• an~hing you want ~ add. VMtDIVD• ltc:t exoe~ that that picture there i• one of ay prize poa.. aaion• and I plan to keep it •• lon9 ea I .. live. I txnz;ht he vaa a very -,_ 69 warm person and I thought he made an effort to understand our problems. I realized that he had national problems and we had regional problems and he had to do what he believed was in the best interests of the nation. [END TAPE I, BEGIN TAPE II] STEWART: Why don't we just let me ask you the question. There was an incident that you wanted to relate to this tape that you felt should be kept separate. Could you describe this? VANDIVER: Yes, that's correct. During the course of the political campaign in 1960, early in the morning President Kennedy, the candidate Kennedy, called me at the governor's mansion on the Prado in Atlanta, Georgia. He told me that he had just ascertained that Martin Luther King had been placed in prison in De Kalb County. He asked the assistance of the governor's office in seeking the release of Martin Luther King. I recall, I believe, that it was some sort of traffic violation for which he had been arrested. He suggested that I discuss this from time to time with [Robert F.] Bobby Kennedy, who was in Washington, since he was traveling in the course of the campaign. I immediately called my brother-in law, [Robert L., Jr.] Bob Russell, who was the national committeeman from Georgia, and discussed this problem with him, of whether or not we could secure the release of Martin Luther King from the prison in De Kalb County, Georgia. He, of course, was very much interested and worried for fear that any activity that we might engage in might become public. I assured him that this was a personal conversation between candidate Kennedy and I, and that nobody other than my wife was aware of the telephone call. We then determined that we would do what we could to use the governor's office to secure the release of Martin Luther King. My brother-in-law, Bob Russell, then called George B. Stewart, who was secretary of the Democratic Party of Georgia at that particular time and who was an extremely close friend of the judge of the city court of Decatur, which is in De Kalb County, so that we could contact this judge through Mr. Stewart, the secretary of the Democratic Party. This we did and I later had a conversation with the judge confirming--he wished to confirm the fact that I had talked with President Kennedy personally. He agreed to release Martin Luther King from the jail. I had some three or four conversations with Bobby Kennedy in Washington during the course of negotiations to effectuate the release of Martin Luther King. In the meantime, candidate Kennedy had called Mrs. Martin Luther King and sympathized with her. Mr. [Richard M.] Nixon had done absolutely nothing. I think that it probably was one of the real turning points of the campaign. We were able to secure Mr. King's release, and candidate Kennedy was able to make great capital of it. And I think that in the closeness of the election that it could very wt ll have been the y_ 70 turning point of the campaign and it could very will have meant the election of President Kennedy. STEWART: Do you recall what specific reasons Senator Kennedy gave when he first called you for wanting to get him out? VANDIVER: Yes. He said that various groups were calling him from all over the United States complaining about Martin Luther King being in jail, and since I was governor of the state in which he was incarcerated, could I use my off ice to get him out? Of course, it would have been, I think, political suicide, with the temper of the times as it was, for it to have been publicized if we did what we did. However, with my interest in seeing that ~nnedy was elected president, I was willing to take that chance. Up to this particular time, nobody knows how it happened. My brother-in-law who was my go-between in the negotiations is now dead. The other two individuals who know about it are living; Mr. Stewart is still living and the judge is still living. STEWART: That's very interesting. I was trying to recall what descriptions I have seen of the situation and I just can't think exactly what was made public as far as how the release was brought about. VANDIVER: Well, we had at that time a mayor of Atlanta, William B. Hartsfield, who personally claimed credit for securing the release of Mr . King. However he had nothing whatsoever to do with it. The negotiations were handled from the governor's mansion with the secretary of the Democratic Party and with the judge. STEWART: Well, he was involved in the subsequent telephone call, I believe. VANDIVER: The mayor might very will have talked with candidate Kennedy or with Bobby Kennedy but he didn't have the power to secure the release. The only person I think that could have done was the governor of the state at that time. STEWART: That's very interesting. Is there anything else on that particular incident? VANDIVER: That's about the story of that particular incident. That's about all of it.