Clifford D. Simak Interviewed 15 March and 19 June 1978

xxviii Clifford D. Simak

?oubt yet, thr~ughout, applauding the worth of the individual living 1n harmony With nature - the temper of the best of science fiction. Clifford D. Simak Interviewed 15 March and 19 June 1978

QUESTION. For both bibliographers and biographers, a fear greater than that of recording an erroneous item is to repeat one. And it is a truism that once an error is made, it is repeated. Mr. Simak, at the Nebula Awards Banquet 1977, you called yourself one of the "last surviving dinosaurs of science fiction." Undeniably, you're very much alive. We can still ask for your help in clarifying those items in the biographical and bibliographical records of you. Some are un doubtedly trivial; yet, others, I believe, are historically and critically important. These are some of the more obvious questions. In an interview in 1975 (CI22), you speak of sitting on the patio with Kay. In a recently issued encyclopedia (0193), the innuence of Mrs. Simak "as critic and typist" which you first stated in 1939 in Thrilling Wonder Stories (01) is repeated . Is " Kay" Mrs. Simak? To what extent has your family supported your writing of science fiction? ANSWER. Ka y's actual name is Agnes. For as long as I've known her, which includes the near fifty years that we've been mar ried, she's always been called Kay. In truth, Kay does not care for science fiction. As a matter of fact, she never has read my works since the very early years when we were first married. Then, of course, I couldn't afford a typist, and with my first drafts in longhand, Kay helped with the editing and typing. In contrast, it was a few Christ mases ago that my son Richard and I sat around and worked out the story "Unsilent Spring" (A 166). Richard, a chemical engineer in Maryland, brainstormed the story and helped write it. Kay; Richard; Shelley, my daughter who is an editor here in Minneapolis; and my younger brother, Carson, the only relative of my generation I have, form my immediate family. QUESTION. Biographical data on book jackets and in a few dictionaries of biography emphasize your Czechoslovakian back-

xxix XXX Clifford D. Simak Clifford D. Simak Interviewed xxxi

ground and the probability of noble ancestry. Too, in the "Introduc his living by breaking new ground. At that time the virgin prairie sod tion" to The Best of Clifford Simak (CI25j A162), you reaffirm that in Wisconsin was so thick and so tough that you could not break it "any man writes from his roots."! find no Czech noblemen as charac by the power of four or six horses. You had to have an extremely ters in your stories; there are, however, many soft-spoken Americans, heavy plow and the power of oxen. My grandfather had his spa~ ~f and not all from Wisconsin. Would you comment? eight oxen and a huge plow, breaking a good many acres of ~ra!Ti e ANSWER. While the towns of Millville, where I was born and land in southwestern Wisconsin. He worked from early spnng, as Bridgeport do exist both in reality and in my stories, I am not 'con- soon as he could put a plow into the ground, until the frost came. sciously aware of using members of my family past or present as char Then he put his oxen in stables and hired men to take care of them, acters. In fact, since my father, John Lewis Simak, was twenty-four greased the plow, and stored it away. Then what did he do! He'd take or twenty-five years old when I was born, and since he had immigrat a steamboat down to New Orleans and spend the winter there. He had ed to this country when he was about twelve, much of the information both northern and southern ties, and when the Civil War came, my I have about my Eastern European heritage is siphoned through two understanding is that the old man had an extremely difficult time generations and is most unreliable. My father remembered that there figuring out which side he would be o.n. He had his friends in New was a castle on the hill and that his uncle who was my father's Orleans. He had his friends in Wisconstn. It was not unul qu1te a few father's brother would come down the hill on a coach-and-four. One months after the War started that he finally decided to enlist in t~e of the earliest memories my father had was that it was the delight of Union Army. He enlisted in Company C of the Second W1sconsm his young life to get up in this coach to bounce up and down on the Cavalry and served out his days in the Arm~ un~er G~nt and Sher seat. man, mostly in the territory west of th~ M1SSIS~1pp1 River. H~ also Another story that my father told me concerned his older took some part in the Vicksburg Campa1gn, but JUSt ~ow much IS un brother, Joseph, who wa s an officer in the Austro-Hungarian army. clear. Also, the old man always claimed that he was w1th Sherman on Jose ph, it seems, got into an altercation with his superior officer the his march to the sea , but Wisconsin history does not bear that out. argument. end in? with both of them dead - my uncle Joseph sab,ring Notwithstanding, he'd served under both Grant andSherm~n , and so the supenor off1cer, then ending his own life with a pistol. long as he Jived, it was worth your life to say anythmg agamst e1th~r I suspect it is probable that the castle my father talked about one. 1 still have my grandfather's sabre hanging over the fireplace m was a manor house, although it may, in fact, have been a castle. The the room where I work. fact that Joseph was an officer in the Austro-Hungarian army would QUESTION. It was David Ransome in Way Station (AJ29) ~ndicate that the family may have had some trace of aristocracy, for who was dressed in Union blue and wore a belted sabre, a most at 1n that army 1t would have been unlikely for a commoner to be an tractive character. How well did you know your grandfather? officer. Another point is that my father's grandmother owned seven ANSWER. 1 was eight or nine when the old man died, and acres in a village near Prague. Seven acres at that time and in that though 1 was too young to shed a tear- at which lack my mother was country would have made her a wealthy woman. While I have no ac r him verv well. He was a sort of hero of very angry - I remembe ., f tu~l facts, it seems to me the indications are that the family was minor · 1 emember he had an old Civil War musket. On Sunday a ter- mme. r d. · h anstocracy. My father's grandmother sold her seven acres to provide noons when my folks and I would go over to have mner wn my funds for the family to come to the United States. grandparents he and my father and my uncle and any other male who . My maternal genealogy is somewhat clearer. I suspect that the happened to be there would go out in th~ yard and load up the ?ld fam1ly of my maternal grandfather, Edward Wi seman, emigrated musket and shoot it off. Of course, at that ume we had breech-loadmg from rural England first to Northern Ireland, and then at some un guns, but it was great sport apparently for them to shoot off a musket known time prior to the Civil War he came to the United States. A with different grades and different charges of powder and s.o on. Yes, grown man, he traveled to the Territory of Wisconsin where he made 1 have very fond memories of the old man. He was very kind to me, xxx.ii Clifford D. Simak Clifford D. Simak Interviewed XX lUll

although he was rather strict. In those days, you see, grandparents it. If you read the book and then you read "Reality Doll," you can see did take it upon themselves to discipline their grandchildren. what had had to be done. Ironically, "Reality Doll" was nominated I have fond memories of my maternal grandmother too. She was for a ebula. I wrote and said if it wa s to be considered , 1 wi sh they'd a Parker, and the Parker family came to Wisconsin in the early wait and consider the book. But Destiny Doll was never nominated. days - probably from New Hampshire where they possibly had lived There was only one other time that I wrote strictly for money. from before the Revolutionary War. She was typical New Englander. The science fiction market was slow. I went out and bought a bunch She said "honess" for "harness" and "cut" for "coat." When I was of westerns. Then I simply spent the weekend reading them. Monday five or six years old, the greatest treat I had was to spend the night at morning I began writing. They had all had cowboys as heroes, and 1 my grandmother's. I was always a kid who wanted to be read to, and thought there were other people out West than cowboys and Indians. either when I was there or when she came to visit us, before I went to So 1 wrote about doctors and lawyers and other folks in the frontier sleep, she'd sit beside me and read. She outlived my grandfather by towns, and editors seemed to like the stories. But I stopped writing quite a number of years. When she died, I did shed tears. westerns after a year. I had things to say that could not be expressed QUESTION. Science fiction fans seem to have the facility for within the formula of the western. discovering anomalies which need clarification. For example, you As for Empire being written in the t hirties, here's the story: J ohn did explain to the audience at the NebuJa Banquet 1977 (CI38) how W. Campbell wrote Empire when he was something like eighteen the first science fiction story you sold remained unpublished. 1 years old. He never was able to find a publisher for it. When he be won't ask you about that first story but about three others. came editor of Astounding, John published my Cosmic Engineers The listing for Empire in the Noreascon Program Book (0108) (A II) and was much taken with it. He called it a power story with sen notes that Empire was first written in the thirties. In his review of sitivity, which he said a power story had never had before. He also Destiny Doll in the fanzine Luna Monthly (D 122), Paul Walker said that he had a story, and would I rewrite his story'? He sent me his warns that "the condensed version (of Destiny Doll) was so badly story, and 1gagged when I read it, but I sat down and rewrote Empire. butchered as to be useless in appreciating the novel." From an exam 1 sent it off to John. I suppose it was somewhat better than what he ination of the canon itself, a question arises: "The Trouble with Ants" had written at the age of eighteen, but it was still pretty bad. And (A48) was not published in John W. Campbell's Astounding as were J ohn, no doubt after much cogitation and a great deal of soul the preced .in~ seven stories that formed the "City" series. Would you searching and some bad nights, turned it down ... for which I don't help the b1bhographers understand these apparent deviations? blame him. At any rate, I tossed it up on the shelf and forgot about it. ANSWER. I did say at ~ebula 1977 that "Cubes of Ganymede" QUESTION. You generally have not collaborated on stories or was~ bad story, and T. O'Connor Sloane may have been right tore used pseudonyms as John W. Campbell and other science fiction turn 11. As far as I am concerned, the manuscript is irrevocably lost. writers were fond of doing. No.w, the ~roblem with Destiny Doll was a real one. Galaxy had ANSWER. I have never used a pseudonym. Everything I have bought It, and 11 was supposed to be published in serial form in a com written is under my actual name. The only collaborative story I've panion maga1ine edited by Lester del Rey. Lester foresaw that the written other than that with my son Richard which I mentioned coa:npani?n, Worlds of Fantasy, would not last long enough to allow earlier 'was with Carl Jacobi (A21). Empire was essentially a rewrite s~nahzauon. He asked me to condense" Reality Doll," its magazine of Joh~'s plot. I may have taken a few of t.he ide~s and actions, but. I title, to a s~ape that would go into one issue (the fourth), which, inci didn't use any of his words. And I certamly tned to humamze h1 s dentally, d1d turn out to be the last published. That meant cutting it. characters. So I sat for a long time thinking whether or not I should cut that It lay on the shelf where I had tossed it. Then several years later, much or give him back the money he had paid for it. I needed the Horace Gold started what he called Galaxy Science Fiction Novels. money so I cut it in half and ruined it absolutely. No question about Number One had a beautiful story by Eric Frank Russell called XXXIV Clifford D. Simak Clifford D. Simak Interviewed XXXV

Sinister Barrier. Several others followed. Among them were Legion writers were thinking and writing in similar terms. Almost automatic of Space by Jack Williamson and Prelude to Space by Arthur C. ally, as John took over the editorship of Astounding in 1938, science Clarke. Then one day I got an agonizing call from Gold. "1 need a fiction had a new direction, and John was a smart editor who helped story," he said. ".John tells me you wrote a story that's never been it along. I continued to write the stories I wanted to write, and John published. Could I see it?" wrote me single-space, long letters that I'd answer occasionally. I I phoned .John and talked to him. J said, "I don't want to give think it was concerning Time Is the Simplest Thing (Al20) which he this story to Gold wi thout offering you the opportunity to take half published in serial form as "The Fisherman" (A I 19) that he wrote me the responsibility for it." a seven page, single-space letter telling me why it was good. Then .John replied, "No way, No Way, NO WAY AT ALL." another time, John wrote me one of those famous letters when he I countered, "Let me pay you at least half of what I get for it." took the hide off me: ... the story had no logic ... it had nothing . ... He wouldn't accept that. Meanwhile, Gold was pleading for it. By this time I had about all 1 could stand of John's seven page, So I sold it to Gold, and I have copies of it at home. I have never single-space letters. I wrote him something to the effect that while read it in published form. I'm never going to. 1t is probably the poor he had every right in the world to reject a story of mine, I was becom est science fiction story ever written by two men who wrote some ing weary of him rejecting them for the wrong reasons. John bought pretty good science fiction. and published stories of mine after that, and on the surface we were QUESTION. Appearances of your stories in Astounding in the still friends, but there was some reser~e in our relationship. fifties were infrequent. Was there a reason other than that John W. QUESTION. Of interest to literary critics and stylists is the Campbell objected to the resolution of "Trouble with Ants" that statement you've made on many occasions, that you do not like to led to that story and subsequent ones appearing in magazines other talk about a work in progress. Also, has the writing of some of your than Astounding? work pleased you more than that of others; do you have future writ ANSWER. It may be as you say that John did not like the idea ing plans; and could you indicate what happens to an author who of earth going to the ants. What I remember him writing was that he writes over such a long period as the one you have? thought we had enough of the series. So I took him at his word. I ANSWER. Oh, the thing is the author himself doesn't know. never argue with an editor. He has a perfect right to turn down a My horror has been of going on and writing poorly and nobody to tell story. I put "Trouble with the Ants" to one side. Then one day, I was me. Perhaps, now, the critics will tell me. rummagmg through my material, and I found it. John hadn't wanted Which works pleased me? (Pause) Out of Their Minds probably it so I sent it to Amazing, and they published it in their companion has the best critical potential of anything I've written. And I got such magazine Fantastic Adventures - possibly not realizing it was part a kick out of writing Goblin Reservation. It's a hard question, of the "City" series. though, because at some time, almost any story one writes .... In the Later on, there was some coolness between John and me because past decade, I've felt elated with "Auk House," with "Marathon of hi s famous habit of writing seven to eight page, single-space let Photograph." I had a great deal of satisfaction writing A Choice of ters. By doing so, he was trying to spur you on to write what he Gods, though all the time I wrote it, I wrote with hunched shoulders: I wanted you to write. I had written my early stories before John came knew there was no plot line; the tale didn't have a hero; it didn't have a on the scene. Then in the mid-thirties, part of the reason that I villain; and there was no action .... But it did have something to say. stopped writing was that I was dissatisfied with what I had been do My agent was appalled, but I asked him to show it to my publisher ing. I want.ed real people to tell the tales: football players, farmers and let them reject it. If they did, I said, he could send it back to me, h~meste~dmg on Venus, old soldiers. Without talking to other and I'd toss it out. Within no time, I received the biggest advance they sc1e nce f1ctton wnters about the desire for characterization, I began had ever given me on a story. to wnte about these real people. I found the other science fiction But it's true. I don't like to talk about a work in progress because, XXXVI Clifford D. Simak Clifford D. Simak Interviewed XXXVII to me, writing is intensely private. If I talk to anyone, I feel the story smell of a freshness and a lushness that you do not find elsewhere. is not entirely mine anymore. I lose the magic. That is the sense that still ties me to that country." QUESTION. Your work in progress appears to be traditional It is to that /iule river valley, and the craggy hills, and the science fiction as was Mastodonia, your last published novel. Can we sparkling streams - that country of"complet~ and absolutefantasy" expect one of your fantasies in the near future? _ that Clifford D. Simak and his readers wtll he forever tted. - MURIEL BECKER] ANSWER. Mastodonia was plain fun to write. The Fellowship of the Talisman, whose working title was "The Desolated Land," will probably be published this fall by Del Rey/ Ballantine. Lester had asked me to write a long fantasy novel - not science fiction. 1 told him r could not write a Tolkien derivative. He agreed. I wrote my own fantasy, and Lester seems quite happy with my unlikely band going down through the wilds of a devastated England on a quest to have a manuscript authenticated. I suspect that I will go on writing, although after I finish my present work, I think I will take a little time to try to assess what I want to do. But I know I'll continue to write; life without writing would be unbearable to me. I have in the back of my mind a big book- probably a quarter of a million words-but whether I'll ever write that one I don't know. When you tackle that big a project you must be certain it is worth the time and the efort. You can fumble a little bit on a smaller work, but you can't fumble on one like that. You put too much of yourself into it, and you ask your readers to put too much of themselves into it to be satisfied with anything less than an outstanding effort.

[Clifford D(onald) Simak was born in 1904 near theconfluence ofthe Mississippi and Wisconsin Rivers - that area ofsouthwestern Wis consin which continues to be the selling for so many ofhis tales; yet, it is a country to which he rarely returns physically. ''I'll tell you this," he has explained, "The southwestern Wisconsin that I write about is a complete and absolute fantasy. The valleys are not nearly as deep, the hills are nor nearly as big, the glens are nor nearly as dark. What I'm doing, I suppose, is expatriate writing. I don't go back often be cause I want to keep the analogue I have built up ofit - the vision of home that I've had to leave to find. For when I do go back occasion ally, I find only one memory that is a constant: down a certain little river valley when the fog comes up in the night, you have a distinctive Brief Chronology xli

1969-76 Minneapolis Tribune weekly column " Medical Report"; Brief Chronology Minneapolis Sunday Tribune - Feature Writer 1976 Retirement in August - forty-seven years as a newsman 1976- Continues to write

1904 Born August 3, in Millville, Wisconsin 1910-29 Country school, Patch Grove High School, Teacher's Training Course, several years teaching rural school, student at the University of Wisconsin 1929 Married April 13 1929-32 Iron River (MI) Reporter 1930 First submission to Amazing Stories - "The Cubes of Ganymede" 1931 First publication in Wonder Stories - "The World of the Red Sun" 1932 First story in Astounding Stories- " Hellhounds of the Cosmos" 1932-34 Spencer (lA) Reporter 1934-35 Dickinson (NO) Press 1935-39 McGiffin Newspaper Company (Editorial assignments in Spencer, lA; Excelsior Springs, MO; Worthington and Brainerd, MN.) 1939-40 Minneapolis Star and Tribune - Copy Reader 1940-49 Minneapolis Star - Chief of Copy Desk 1947 Birth of son - Richard Scott 1949-62 Minneapolis Star - News Editor 1951 Birth of daughter - Shelley 1959-69 Minneapolis Tribune Science Reading Series - Editor and Coordinator 1960-69 Minneapolis Star weekly column "Tomorrow's World: Science in the News"