PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE

INQUIRY INTO USE OF STATE FUNDING BY FOOTBALL COMMISSION

TRANSCRIPT OF EVIDENCE TAKEN AT WEDNESDAY, 16 SEPTEMBER 2020

SESSION ONE

Members

Dr Tony Buti (Chair) Mr Dean Nalder (Deputy Chair) Mr Vincent Catania Mr Simon Millman Mrs Lisa O’Malley ______

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Hearing commenced at 10.16 am

Mr TREVOR JAMES NISBETT Chief Executive Officer, Football Club, examined:

Mr RICHARD GODFREY Chief Operating Officer, West Coast Eagles Football Club, examined:

Mr SIMON GARLICK Chief Executive Officer, Football Club, examined:

Mr GRAEME PARKER Chief Operating Officer, , examined:

The CHAIR: Thank you all for appearing from Queensland and also in the room today to provide evidence relating to the committee’s inquiry into the use of state funding by the West Australian Football Commission. My name is Tony Buti and I am the committee chair and member for Armadale. To my left is the deputy chair and member for Bateman, Dean Nalder. To my right is Mr Simon Millman, member for Mount Lawley, and to Dean Nalder’s left is Mr Vince Catania, member for North West Central, and to his left is Mrs Lisa O’Malley, member for Bicton. It is important that you understand that any deliberate misleading of this committee may be regarded as a contempt of Parliament. While your evidence is protected by parliamentary privilege, this privilege does not apply to anything that you might say outside today’s proceedings. I would also like to advise that today’s hearing will be broadcast live on the Parliament House website. As two witnesses are appearing via the internet, I would like to remind the two interstate witnesses that they will be visible at all times. To make things easier for everyone I would ask participants to allow a little time between questions and answers for internet lag and also ask that witnesses name their colleagues when asking them to answer questions. Mr GARLICK: I will just correct you; I am in Perth but I am serving my first day of home quarantine after arriving back yesterday. The CHAIR: Thanks very much. Do any of you have questions about appearing today? The WITNESSES: No. The CHAIR: Would you like to make a brief opening statement before we proceed with our questions? Mr NISBETT: Perhaps I could, Mr Chairman, if that is possible. I would just like to say the following. The West Coast Eagles Football Club has been part of the football landscape since 1987. Its first three years were moderately successful on field and highly unsuccessful off field. Consequently, the WA Football Commission was born as an independent body to oversee and govern football in the state. Football in WA was broke in 1987 and was in serious trouble at the end of 1989. The change in structure meant that the role of the West Coast Eagles changed somewhat in that the club became responsible for assisting its owner, the WA Football Commission, in raising revenue to the football fraternity. This is a very different model to the other states. Over the past 33 years, the West Coast Eagles have contributed over $150 million back to the WA Football Commission in direct payments. This funding model is unique and does not exist in other states. The WAFC is then charged with the responsibility to distribute funding, implement policy and strategy, put in place structures

Public Accounts Wednesday, 16 September 2020 — Session One Page 2 to facilitate those strategies and evaluate those outcomes. The WAFC was set up to be independent and make decisions in the best interests of football. As a club, we do not always agree with some of the decisions that are made by the commission. However, in the main, they have made decisions that they believe assist the growth of our game. [10.20 am] The West Coast Eagles and Fremantle Football Clubs are anchor tenants at WA’s Optus Stadium. We have a user agreement and raise revenue, which partly goes to the operator and the state government and partly goes to the club. The state then passes some of that revenue back to the WAFC for use in the development of football. In assisting with this revenue raising, we believe we have a great responsibility to the game, and we take that very seriously. We also have a great responsibility to perform on field, grow our club and be well placed for the future. We also have a commitment to our members and the community and we believe we meet these obligations. I do not think we have everything right as an industry. However, the WAFC is addressing some of those things that we have not got correct. We believe that the WAFC is the most appropriate body and structure to govern football in this state, and they remain independent. They are responsible people led by their chairman, Wayne Martin, and they are certainly aware of their requirements to manage their funds well. In the past, we have seen many clubs throughout the WAFL, the , country football and so on battle for funding and sometimes relevance. Some have been poorly run and, like any business, they will struggle if that is the case regardless of the income or the distributions they may receive. Many of the programs that the WAFC now run and have supported are due to a lack of outcomes achieved by clubs. An example of this, as I have mentioned before, has been youth football. However, it is reasonable for clubs to discuss a change of direction if they are serious about getting the outcomes required. I believe that the system in WA is the envy of other states with its two AFL clubs making a significant contribution to football via both direct and indirect input. The independent commission has been significant in making this system work and needs to remain as the governing body and peak body in WA. That is all I would like to say as an opening statement. The CHAIR: Thank you Mr Nisbett. Mr Garlick, would you like to make an opening statement? Mr GARLICK: Yes. Firstly, thank you for the opportunity to appear before the Public Accounts Committee; it is much appreciated. From my perspective, I am a relative newcomer to WA football on a full‐time basis, having been appointed as Fremantle Football Club CEO in November of last year. I certainly now have a clear understanding of the unique and important role that we, along with Trevor and the West Coast Eagles play within the WA football community as the wholly owned subsidiary of the commission and as an owner of the sublicence from the football commission to participate in the AFL. Clearly, the role is significant on a number of levels. However, it is particularly critical as the anchor tenants at Optus Stadium. I understand through Trevor’s comments and others who have attended the committee, that they have described the importance of the two AFL clubs in providing that anchor funding of the WA football ecosystem as a whole. I intentionally use the word “ecosystem” when referring to the WA football industry as it essentially infers that to be truly effective, there really is that shared reliance on all stakeholders, regardless of size and status, to play their part to ensure it is working as effectively and efficiently as it possibly can. To that end, we understand that we are only two players in the overall WA Football ecosystem. However, it is clear that it is important to be mindful that healthy, sustainable and ultimately consistently competitive AFL clubs in Fremantle and West Coast are critically important given the fact that the more members we have, the more members, supporters and football followers go to games at Optus Stadium, and the better the return coming back through the stadium‐user

Public Accounts Wednesday, 16 September 2020 — Session One Page 3 agreement through to the WAFC to use it as effectively and responsibly as it can. We as a club have a wide range of roles to play in ensuring we do our bit for WA football, but, primarily, we are charged, on behalf of our members and our owner, to effectively ensure that we are as successful as possible on a sustained basis. A critical part of running our club successfully includes the need to ensure the sustainability of revenues and the overall health of the game at all levels. That, therefore, leads us to a clear understanding of our need to reinvest back into the WA football ecosystem as a key measure of success through our club. With that in mind, we are incredibly proud to have contributed over $80 million to the West Australian Football Commission since our inception via stadium rental at , licence fees, alignment contributions, program sponsorship and royalty payments. In addition, the club makes direct investment into its own community and grassroots programs including our schools and youth programs and our Next Generation Academy, with this investment totalling over $1 million in 2019 alone. The club also makes substantial indirect investment by donations of tickets, assistance and fundraising support, promotion of causes, resourcing assistance, and the list goes on. While we are extremely proud of the investment that we have made in the broader community and our industry as a whole, this is particularly so in relation to the investment that we have made over the years in resourcing and program support to the growth of the women’s game in . This investment of ours was recognised by the AFL with the club being awarded one of the inaugural AFLW licences. The club continues to invest strongly and passionately in the growth and development of the women’s game in WA. I think it is just important to note that it is no surprise to anyone on the committee that the AFL is one of, if not the most ruthlessly competitive sporting competitions in the world. We have to be at the absolute cutting edge in all aspects of our governance, strategy and operations for us to compete for finals spots and premierships on a sustained basis. That, in essence, is our charter and our driving focus. While on‐field success is a driving priority, we also intimately understand the need for us to be a rounded club that plays a critical role in both our communities and our broader industry. That is why, as evidenced in my previous remarks, we are so committed to our community programs, our people and the WA football community as a whole. With the stated desire of playing our role in a strong, sustainable and stable WA football industry in mind, the Fremantle Football Club believes that this system in Western Australia is structurally very sound. What is clearly critical and obviously driving this inquiry, is that the WA Football Commission, as the independent governing body of the industry, needs to have the optimal structure and remit and resources and support and governance and management responsibilities to play its role to ensure this ecosystem that I referred to sustains and thrives as effectively as it should. I mentioned earlier that I am obviously relatively new to WA football, having begun my role in November. I have, however, been fortunate enough to have a lifetime in football, having played and coached in community football and having played in the AFL for over a decade in two different clubs in two different states. I have commentated AFL football, sat on the AFL Players’ Association board, the Club board and been CEO of two AFL clubs. The reason I raise that, and in addition to that experience, the consultancy work I completed in recent years provides an interesting insight into the context of these discussions. I was engaged by the AFL to undertake an independent review of the entire football industry, or ecosystem, in . The remit of that project included, but was not limited to, community and schools football, development leagues and pathways, second‐tier league all the way through to the role of the AFL game played through the partnerships with Hawthorn and North . Similarly, I completed a role for the AFL in the Northern Territory as to a number of their key areas of performance. That experience certainly has given me what I feel is a reasonable level of understanding of the manner in which football is

Public Accounts Wednesday, 16 September 2020 — Session One Page 4 administered and managed in some other states. Whilst my time in WA has admittedly by been relatively short and COVID‐affected to date, it is certainly my opinion that the overall system that has been designed to sustain football in Western Australia is not the issue at hand here. To my mind, and certainly the Fremantle Football Club’s mind, it is not broken and, in reality, it is uniquely structured and organised to able to be self‐sustaining in a way that other football states cannot manage or replicate. With that said, it does seem clear that an element of the ecosystem needs attention, and potentially altering, and examining the manner in which the football commission performs its role to help the overall football environment work as well as it could certainly, from our mind, is not an unhealthy process to undertake at all. With that in mind, we as a football club support this inquiry that looks to ensure the football commission is set to perform its role as effectively as it can, particularly in relation to the scope as it is outlined. The Fremantle Football Club believes that the football commission is the right vehicle to oversee football in this state. An independent body making objective and rationale judgements and decisions that takes such critical operational and strategic tasks and functions out of the hands of the AFL clubs, the WAFL clubs and community clubs, we think is critical to ensure independence and the rational management of the industry as a whole. [10.30 am] Mr Chair, we also wanted to state that we certainly feel, as a club, that we have confidence in the independence, impartiality, integrity, capability and intent of the relatively recently appointed WAFC chairman, in Wayne Martin. We also believe that some of the changes already made to the football commission in recent months reflect a positive approach. While we understand the need to cast a retrospective look at performance and duty discharge to inform the best steps to move forward, we encourage the committee to maintain a forward‐looking focus as it provides recommendations for the football commission to make changes necessary to ensure that this unique model, which already sees WA football well‐placed in relation to its contemporaries, reaches its full potential. The CHAIR: Thank you very much, Mr Garlick. We have some questions now. I will commence with a few questions and then pass on to my colleagues. In your written submission from the West Coast Eagles, you said that you believe that the West Australian Football Commission has basically got the balance right between the competing priorities. I am just wondering whether that actually conforms to reality. If one looks at the Perth Football League, which includes probably up to 60 000 players I think—I am not sure if that is 100 per cent accurate, but around that—it receives, from the information we have got, roughly $878 000 from the commission. The country leagues, as a total, got $1.35 million. Do you actually see that as being a good balancing of priorities? Anyone? Mr NISBETT: I would like to answer that, because of our submission. We do think in general they get things right. I think that there is always a balancing act. I do not know that anything has changed over the 40‐odd years that I have been in football. There is an argument to say that country football and amateur football is undersold. That has always been the case. Coming from the country, I understand how the zoning works and how the priorities are different. Currently, there may need to be a shift in some of those priorities, but generally I think the competing priorities are correct. If you were going to give funds to the WA Country Football League, the Perth Football League and others, there are only a couple of buckets that you could take that funding from. One of those would be the WAFL, and I think you would get a fair bit of backlash with the WAFL clubs saying that they should be getting more funding rather than less. There are some other avenues, of course.

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Consequently, I would guess that the West Australian Football Commission would be addressing those. The CHAIR: Thank you, Mr Nisbett. Mr Garlick, would you like to add anything? Mr GARLICK: Nothing substantive, Mr Chair, other than obviously, again, just the caveat being that I have not had a significant amount of time within the system to truly understand the potential differences. But I would suggest that these sorts of things need to be constantly reviewed. The element that you raised does seem like it raises an opportunity to have a look at whether there is an opportunity to provide more funding for some of the country leagues. That is certainly something that I know is a topic of conversation. There certainly cannot be a set‐and‐forget policy provided whereby funding might be allocated to a certain period of time that goes for anything longer than, I think, a 12 to 24‐month period. The CHAIR: Mr Nisbett, you mentioned that there is only a couple of buckets where the money could come from, but maybe the actual money being received by the commission could increase in the sense that in 2019, the West Coast Eagles had revenue of $88.7 million and Fremantle Football Club had $57.8 million. I know now you basically both work from the same model. Previously, the amount of royalties the Dockers paid to the commission was based on revenue, but now you are both based on a profit calculation. West Coast last year made $88.7 million but ended up with a profit of $8 million. Based on that $8 million, you then contributed $4.1 million to the football commission. Considering you made $88.7 million in revenue, could there not be an argument that more money should be going to the West Australian Football Commission so that country football, the Perth Football League and other affiliates could receive more money? Obviously, you are able to spend and reduce the profit. I know there is a base amount of money that you must give, but is there not an argument to be made that considering the success of the West Coast Eagles— congratulations on having such a successful organisation—and, to a lesser extent, the Fremantle Football Club, there is an opportunity for more money to go to the development of football in Western Australia? Mr NISBETT: Mr Chair, it is an argument, and it is an argument we have on a regular basis with our owner, the West Australian Football Commission. We recently engaged in a new royalty agreement with the football commission based around a percentage of our profit. We believe it is the appropriate royalty agreement based around an incentive for our club to continue to make profits. A profitable club is then able to build its reserves for times like this year, when we have had this COVID‐19 issue and consequently we have had to delve into our resources and our balance sheet to ensure that we can get through this year and, of course, next. Our royalty agreement does incentivise the club, but it also incentivises the assistance to the football commission, with about $1.5 million of the first $2 million we raise going to the commission. We believe we also contribute significantly through the user agreement at Optus Stadium. We believe that the intent is to continue to contribute as we have in the past. The CHAIR: Mr Garlick? Mr GARLICK: We are obviously in a slightly different position to West Coast, Mr Chair, in the sense that we made a net loss last year of $1.6 million and a small profit in 2018 of circa $300 000. Obviously, again as I mentioned earlier on as being relatively new to this system, it certainly feels to me that we do have the balance right in the way that the royalty agreement has been struck. It provides for incentive for us to work really hard to be profitable—successful on the field and profitable off the field. Therefore, the more that we do that, the more that we contribute to the system. Obviously, having not been party to, I think, the three to four years of discussion and negotiation and work that went into arriving at the agreement with the stadium and the royalty

Public Accounts Wednesday, 16 September 2020 — Session One Page 6 agreement between the clubs and the commission, it is difficult for me to pass judgement upon that, but clearly, a significant amount of good minds went into that with the thought to making it as sustainable as it can be. The CHAIR: Over the course of this inquiry, we have heard evidence from numerous people about the way the West Australian Football Commission appoints or elects its commissioners, but can I just turn to the way the two clubs before us appoint their board. Going through the 18 AFL clubs, apart from the two WA clubs—Fremantle and West Coast Eagles—every other AFL club has at least some board members that are elected by the members. We have not been able to confirm with St Kilda, but I would be pretty confident that they go along with the Victorian clubs. As you know, Mr Garlick, just before your time, the Fremantle Football Club used to elect two members from the membership. Considering that the West Coast Eagles has over 100 000 members, which is a great outcome, how can it be justified that you do not allow your membership to appoint any of your directors? [10.40 am] Mr GARLICK: I might jump in there first, Mr Chairman, if that is okay. To give a bit of historical context in relation to our member elections, for the committee’s understanding, in the majority of the 15 years that Fremantle had member‐elected directors, elections did not occur just due to the lack of nominations being received. The last election was held in 2012 and had just on 2 000 votes cast. That represented less than seven per cent of the eligible voting membership base that could cast a vote, and that was in a year when the election voting numbers were considered as relatively high, based on there was a point of conjecture around Fremantle remaining in Fremantle, so it was probably highly emotive at the time. I know there is a notion of potentially some clandestine manner in which members are kept out of club matters, decisions and directions; it is just simply not accurate. The way that the clubs have transitioned—and I will refer to my experience in a Victorian club in a moment—and the way the club works through this process now is professional and contemporary. It allows the club to ensure its best position with the board to ensure it can compete in this environment that I spoke about earlier. Victorian AFL clubs whose constitutions are commonly over a century old are moving towards having either the majority or complete member‐elected boards, as you have talked about, to board‐ appointed structures. It is interesting to note, too, the approval of appointing boards does not come through an independent body like the football commission. They appoint those board members themselves. I went through a similar process at the Western Bulldogs where the club had gone from nine member‐elected board members to having three board‐appointed directors and I know that is continuing to be a focus for those clubs. These clubs are not doing that and going through that process in some sort of cynical grab for control or to keep the club in the hands of an exclusive group; it is rather to keep up with the demands of what is a fast‐paced and competitive industry. We are now complex organisations that need expertise, diversity and capability across more than just football. We are media and entertainment and communications companies. We need expertise and capabilities across complex commercial deals and arrangements including property and facility management, higher‐level financial strategy and management, brand development of people and culture—you name it. I understand that the odd individual raises this as an issue, but it is simply not an issue of concern across our membership base. We have significant member platforms that ensure our members are connected, influential, engaged and a critical part of the club and the direction it takes. There are specific mechanisms through which our members can look to submit an interest to join the board.

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It is done so in a measured and contemporary manner that looks to provide the best outcome for the club. The CHAIR: Mr Nisbett. Mr NISBETT: I will not go over the same ground that Simon has just said, but in my time at West Coast we have not had elections and it has proved fantastic for our football club. We have been able to engage outstanding directors via the West Australian Football Commission and the nominations committee. We have been able to get people engaged with the right skill sets. It has been a highly successful system. Again, we have not had a lot of our members writing in, emailing, or requesting the opportunity to be on our board. I guess that may be because they know the system but it has been probably in my time—in 22 years as CEO—one or two member inquiries. The rest we have had to source and find people who have the skill sets available. We have been able to go through the mechanisms to get people on board. Some of our directors are vastly experienced in the skill sets that we require and, consequently, we have been very successful in having board members for three terms of three years, and then replacing those particular board members—some after three years, some after six and some after nine years. It has been highly successful and we would like to continue in that manner. The CHAIR: Have you been on the board since 2003? Mr NISBETT: Yes, I have. The CHAIR: You said most of your board members are on, at the most, three terms. Mr NISBETT: Three terms of three years. I am the exception, being basically the managing director. The CHAIR: I think out of the 18 clubs, eight have a CEO, so you are not unique in that sense of being on the board. Do you see the potential for conflict of interest in having the CEO on the board? Mr NISBETT: No, not in this case. The CHAIR: Why not? Mr NISBETT: I guess with my experience and what I have been involved with, it was a discussion with our board over a period of time and they felt that my experience was adequate. The CHAIR: When this inquiry was announced, and since the inquiry, we have had people who have appeared before us and there have been allegations and counter‐allegations about trying to impede this inquiry. We will not go over those allegations but they are all public, in the transcripts. I refer to a meeting that was held at the Tuart Hill headquarters of the Western Australian footy commission not long after this inquiry was announced. I think at that meeting all the WA football presidents were there and also the CEOs. It was facilitated by an external person. I am putting this to you, Mr Nisbett, because it gives you the chance to respond: did you, at that meeting, say if we do not work together we could lose our government funding? Mr NISBETT: I cannot recall exactly what I said at that meeting, but I explicitly said that football should work with football on all occasions. Certainly, there was no intention to impede this inquiry. We actually welcome this inquiry. The CHAIR: Are you refuting the allegation that you made that comment? Mr NISBETT: I cannot recall saying that comment at the meeting, sir. The CHAIR: As you also know, there have been media reports. Obviously, there has been quite a high‐profile media report in regard to the inaugural West Coast coach, , who appeared before our committee. We also took evidence from him in closed session, which obviously I am not going to reveal at the moment. In an article that appeared in The West Australian on 1

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September 2020, titled “WA Footy ‘Underbelly’” it goes through allegations or statements that Mr Alexander is making about an underbelly or a clique that controls football in Western Australia. It goes back in time, him referring to the time that Brian Cook was CEO of the club. Mr Alexander, in his evidence, referred to an earlier article going back a long time, from 1989, written by Bevan Eakins. It refers to a number of people who are still involved or have been involved in football in Western Australia, including your good self, Mr Nisbett. The talk about an underbelly—I put this as a bit of a rhetorical statement in referring to things that have been said or whispered and referring to one of my favourite films: are you considered or have you heard that you might be referred to as the “Godfather” of football in Western Australia? Mr NISBETT: No, sir, I have not. That may be an opinion of someone, but I have been in football for 45 years and, coming from the country, being in the WAFL system, I understand the system well. I have been with the West Coast Eagles for 31 years. I have been in football all of my life and I have devoted my life to football. I find those sorts of comments nonsense. There is a CEO role that I follow—I conduct. I am responsible to a board of directors and, in turn, we have one owner. We are responsible to our owner. Most of the clubs have a CEO who is obviously responsible to their board members. I think our performance as a football club illustrates that, and some of the directors of our club over a number of years would probably be offended to think that was the case, or that was the assertion. Sir, no; I am surprised about those sorts of comments from Mr Alexander. [10.50 am] The CHAIR: I am not saying that Mr Alexander said that you were the godfather, so let us make that clear. Mr Garlick, were you at that meeting at the Tuart Hill headquarters of the football commission? Mr GARLICK: I was appearing in much the manner that I am today, Mr Chair, in the sense that I was going through my first two weeks in home quarantine after being in Queensland the first time around. I appeared via video hook‐up. The CHAIR: Did you make any statement to the presidents of the WAFL clubs or the CEOs? Mr GARLICK: Yes, I did. I took the opportunity just to make some comments in relation to some of my initial observations in regard to my short period of time—I think it was at that point probably six months—within the role. I said that I understand there are some challenges and there is some work that needs to be done, and we probably need to improve in areas as an industry—much in the manner that this inquiry is looking into—but let us not also forget the positive elements that are in place in WA football. As I alluded to in my opening remarks, having some understanding and experience with other football industries in other states, there are some real strengths here that should be acknowledged and recognised, and look to be leveraged in the future for the betterment of the whole industry. That was the general tenor of my comments. Mr V.A. CATANIA: Just carrying on from the Chair’s comments about having an underbelly that exists in Western Australian football and the perception that the West Coast Eagles controls football here in Western Australia, I suppose my question is to Mr Nisbett. The perception is that the West Coast Eagles control Western Australian football. Do you agree with that perception that the Eagles do, given the fact that I think you said that $150 million over the tenure of the Eagles, or the Eagles being around, has been put back into Western Australian football and $80 million from the Fremantle Dockers? It is a large amount of money that has gone back into the West Australian Football Commission. I suppose the question is: how has that money, from a community point of view, flowed down to the grassroots level? Are we getting the best value for that royalty coming back into Western Australian football? Do you believe or agree that there is that perception that the Eagles do dominate football, not only on the field but also off the field, and especially when it

Public Accounts Wednesday, 16 September 2020 — Session One Page 9 comes to the West Australian Football Commission, where you do have quite a bit of leverage, potentially, with that amount of money that you put back into the football commission? Do you agree with the perception that the Eagles control Western Australian football? Mr NISBETT: Mr Catania, thanks for the question. Look, I think we are a major part of the ecosystem that Simon mentioned. Obviously, we are one of the biggest clubs in the country. Therefore, there may be some perception that we do have a firm hand on the control of football in this state, but we do not; we are part of the system and we work in a really brutal industry at AFL level to do the best we possibly can both on and off field. We think we have demonstrated, as a football club, that we have been able to do that. I would think that the question of financial return to the football commission would be, again, up to the WA Football Commission to decide on whether there should be further distributions down through grassroots football. My guess is that the football commission is addressing some of those issues, particularly after this inquiry. I know that the football commission started reorganising and restructuring as early as March this year. Again, it is a guess, because I do not know, but I assume that the football commission is addressing a number of those issues. Mr V.A. CATANIA: It has been brought to the committee’s attention about the make‐up of the football commission board. When you go through it, there is a strong connection obviously to the West Coast Eagles, hence why you have that perception that the Eagles control Western Australian football. Do you agree that there is a strong connection from the Eagles within the commission board? Mr NISBETT: I would say that it is probably 50–50, Mr Catania. I am not sure who everyone supports from a football perspective. I know some certainly support our club and I know some certainly support Fremantle. Hopefully, they do not support any of the other clubs! Certainly, from my point of view, I think once people put their name forward, it is up to the respective bodies to vote for those people and get them on. My understanding is that they are independent at all times, so I would guess that when they are making a decision around their table, they are independent—they make it in the best interests of football. Look, most people who nominate for the WA Football Commission have some bias towards one of the AFL clubs in this state. Mr V.A. CATANIA: To both CEOs, given that Indigenous players have made a huge mark on the game, when you look at the board representation of the Eagles, Fremantle and the football commission, I do not think there has been probably an Indigenous person based in the AFL clubs or the commission. The CHAIR: Colleen Hayward. Mr V.A. CATANIA: There is one. In terms of having greater representation, especially when it comes to the Eagles and the commission, do you think that having an Indigenous representative on the boards is something that the Eagles and the commission should look at in the future? Mr NISBETT: I can probably answer that. Chris Cottier is on the commission board currently. He is an Indigenous person and he also works for BHP. He has been raised at this inquiry previously. From our point of view, I guess our commitment to Indigenous Australia is through the Wirrpanda Foundation, where we have a foundation that is set up for helping Indigenous Australians. We have 109 employees, with 77 per cent of those people Indigenous. We have a board structure and, again, it is over 50 per cent of the board who are Indigenous. Consequently, that is probably our structure, Mr Catania, to make sure that we are engaged in assisting not only footballers but also the Indigenous community.

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Mr V.A. CATANIA: With the $150 million that you give back through royalty to the commission, that work with the foundation is separate to any of those funds—am I correct? The Wirrpanda Foundation is another avenue, potentially, that goes back to assisting those in communities right across Western Australia, and particularly regional Western Australia, so do you see that as another arm that AFL clubs like the West Coast Eagles have in giving back to the community for being such a successful club? Mr NISBETT: Absolutely, Mr Catania. One of the primary things that we did when we set it up in 2005 was to ensure that we did give back to the community. David and I sat down at the end of 1999 to formulate a foundation. It took us a few years to get it sorted. It is run autonomously. It is run by Lisa Cunningham, and really effectively. It does a great job within the community. It is a major part of our existence. For the first time, when we built our facilities at Mineral Resources Park, the Wirrpanda Foundation is now part of our whole club, albeit that it still runs autonomously, and they do an outstanding job. [11.00 am] The CHAIR: Mr Nisbett, you mentioned Mr Chris Cottier, who is on the board of the West Australian Football Commission and is an employee of BHP, who I believe are a major sponsor of the West Coast Eagles. Surely that is a conflict? Mr NISBETT: The first time we met Chris was when he nominated for the position. If we were looking at conflicts of any description, I would think that is one of the least conflicting things that someone would have being on the commission. When we met Chris, we were convinced that he was going to make a very good contribution. He is currently not going up for re‐election, so he will be replaced. The CHAIR: I am not so sure that it is not a major conflict. I am sure he has an obligation to his employer, who has got a very strong sponsorship arrangement with the West Coast Eagles. Further to Mr Catania’s issue about allegations that there is a strong West Coast flavour to the West Australian Football Commission, I am sure, Mr Nisbett, that you would know who these members on the commission support or are strongly linked to. Of course, we have Chris Cottier, who one would think, being an employee of BHP who are a major sponsor of West Coast Eagles, would be obviously linked to West Coast. Amber Banfield should not be handicapped by who her husband is—I am not inclined that she should be—but, of course, her husband is one of your legends, who played in two premierships 10 years apart—or quite a considerable period apart—being . I think Cheryl Edwardes is quite well known as a very strong West Coast supporter. I would think Wayne Martin may be, but I am sure. Is there anyone else on there who you would consider to be West Coast, and the converse, who on there would be strongly linked to the Fremantle Dockers? Mr NISBETT: Brian O’Donnell was a former board member at Fremantle. Stuart Love is a Fremantle supporter. I do not know about Neil Randall, who is coming off the commission, and I certainly do not know about Chris Cottier, even though he does work for BHP. I have not asked Chris who he actually supports. But there are a few people on that commission. I believe the CEO of the commission, Gavin Taylor, is also a Fremantle supporter. Mrs L.M. O’MALLEY: My question relates to the diversity and make‐up of the boards, and the importance of diversity targets. Given the phenomenal growth of the sport, particularly with female participation, and if we look to see what the intention is for continued growth, what is your opinion on diversity targets on your own boards and also your thoughts on the importance of a diversity target on the football commission board and how that may influence the growth of the game across the community?

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Mr GARLICK: I am happy to give you a break there, Trevor. Just to answer that question directly, Mrs O’Malley, I could not be more supportive. I joined a group called CEOs for Change that focuses in on the importance of diversity. We have eight directors at the Fremantle Football Club. Just on an earlier point, I clarify that Colleen Hayward, who is a pre‐eminent leader in the WA community as a whole and is a proud Indigenous woman, is a huge contributor to our club—just to have that on the record, through the Chair. We have eight directors—five male and three female at this point in time. Obviously, for all members of the club and to staff to players, diversity is critical for us. I think we have spoken and have an understanding of the significance of the West Coast Eagles in Western Australia and the AFL competition as a whole. We as a club not only want to make sure that we have diverse representation across all the critical areas because it is the right thing to do, but because it also gives us an opportunity to be successful in that sense. In this day and age, if you are not getting that level of governance and administrative support as well through the whole part of your organisation, then you are missing a major segment. It is not driven purely by commercial output; it is driven by the fact that it is the right thing to do that we actually get to the right levels of diversity and equality. But there is a mix of making sure that we do it so that we can succeed as well. Mrs L.M. O’MALLEY: And your opinion on the make‐up of the board and the football commission? Mr GARLICK: The same thought, absolutely. The days of it being 60‐year‐old Anglo Saxon men predominantly are long gone. We need to reflect society, as an industry, far more effectively than we have previously. I think that is acknowledged. It is certainly the opinion of the Fremantle Football Club. I will put it this way: I understand that there may be still some of those historical views in place, but I would hope that they are becoming less and less. Mrs L.M. O’MALLEY: I just want to hear from Mr Nisbett, if I could. Mr NISBETT: Mrs O’Malley, I would say the same thing. I mean our sentiment is the same. We have not been great in this space. We need to get better. We have Zoe Yujnovich on our board currently, but our diversity is nowhere near where it should be, nor is it across the league. That is something that we all have to address, and it is very pertinent. Mr V.A. CATANIA: When it comes to the football commission board in terms of diversity, I know Amber Banfield does a great job on a grassroots level at the local football club, so I know her involvement there. We have also heard from Grant Dorrington and his involvement through his grandkids being involved in the sport. But do you think perhaps that the commission should be made up of whether it be amateurs, whether it be country football, or whether it be women’s football? Should the commission be reflective of all forms of the game, from country to amateurs to AFL? Should that potentially be a make‐up of a committee or being a committee more reflective of Western Australian football? Mr GARLICK: I think that is an entirely logical notion. I have been lucky enough to coach my daughter’s team in football and have been involved, in my time at the Western Bulldogs, with the growth of that part of the game. Ten years ago, if you had told us as an industry that we would be where we are from a female participation perspective, it would have been unthinkable. For us to think we can continue to grow in areas like that and continue the history and record of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander representation, and continue to foster and grow that, and if we think we can continue to progress in those areas without having more diverse representation on our boards, I think we are kidding ourselves. It is certainly an ongoing priority for us at the Fremantle Football Club. I clearly imagine the commission themselves look at it and think about what they need from a skill set perspective, a background perspective and an experience perspective as opposed to just having a traditional football background.

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Mr S.A. MILLMAN: Following on from the questions that have been asked by Mrs O’Malley and Mr Catania, would increasing the number of representatives on the football commission make it any less workable as a board? Would that be an impediment to it operating effectively, if you increased the numbers? Mr NISBETT: Well, I do not think so. I think that might be the opportunity that the commission would look at to try and involve some of the stakeholder representatives that Mr Catania mentioned earlier. The issue, I guess, for the commission is to still remain independent. We would not like to see that stakeholders who are on that commission then become totally invested in their patch so that there is not the independence that we currently are looking for. The diversity, with an increase in numbers, would certainly assist. The CHAIR: Do you want to add anything, Mr Garlick? I have a question before I hand over to Mr Nalder. Mr GARLICK: No, I jumped in before Trevor, so that is fine. [11.10 am] The CHAIR: Just in regard to what Mrs O’Malley and Mr Catania said, followed also by Mr Millman, about diversity and so forth, the fact is that there is a 60 per cent voting block—20 per cent Fremantle, 20 per cent West Coast Eagles and 20 per cent by existing commissioners—in the appointment of commissioners; then the WAFL clubs have 30 per cent and the affiliates, which are considerable and include country football, have only a 10 per cent vote for commissioners. The affiliates are not even members in the constitution of the West Australian Football Commission, which seems a bit strange. Do you think there is merit in the argument that the way the voting mix is currently structured that gives the two AFL clubs plus the existing commissioners a 60 per cent voting block on the appointment of new commissioners is open to change, or should be changed, or consideration should be given to changing that? Mr NISBETT: Mr Chairman, I would think that would be on the agenda, considering the platform for the Perth Football League and the country leagues and what they presented at the last forum we had, and what they presented recently. I would think that would be on the commission’s agenda. I am not sure what percentage they would suggest to each of the constituents, but I would think that it would be part of the agenda to ensure that the affiliates are getting more of a vote. Mr GARLICK: I would agree, Mr Chairman, particularly in relation to the affiliates. I think it is clearly a unique situation and circumstance where subsidiaries have a vote in that manner that you have spoken about, but it also follows unique circumstances of the subsidiaries contributing a significant portion of funding for the game. I think the 20 per cent voting rights which the AFL clubs feel is appropriate, given it allows for us to have an influence without having any sort of majority, but we would certainly be open to looking at how it might be rebalanced. I think it is interesting too that there are not too many corporate examples where the two and only wholly owned subsidiaries of a parent company, not only provide a significant part of funding, as I mentioned, but also are direct competitors. There is a uniqueness for this whole scenario that we are probably well‐served to keep in mind, but we would happily work with the Football Commission and the industry to review the voting rights, particularly in relation to the affiliates potentially having a greater say. The CHAIR: Two of the big changes to the WAFL clubs over recent years was the standalone Eagles reserves team—obviously, with COVID that has not happened this year, but last year there was an Eagles team. From my understanding, the standalone reserves team was being pushed by the AFL clubs; it was not coming from the WAFL clubs. The other thing is the change to the Colts competition. One of the major criticisms coming from the WAFL clubs and others is that now the West Australian

Public Accounts Wednesday, 16 September 2020 — Session One Page 13 footy commission controls the Colts competition. Even though you have a South Fremantle Colts team et cetera, it is controlled by the commission and there seems to be a disconnect now between those young players who would have had a stronger link to their WAFL clubs, now that has been centralised and operated by the West Australian Football Commission. Before you answer that— you do not have this in front of you—an article in my local paper—I am the member for Armadale, so it was in that metropolitan region—talks about the decline of junior football in Maddington, Kenwick, Armadale, Lynwood, Ferndale and also Gosnells. It talks about how the Gosnells Hawks are unable to field a Colts team this year, and I know that the Kelmscott and Armadale Football Clubs were unable to have an under‐17s team this year. Mr Perry Kleppe, who is the president of the Willetton Football Club, states “… the WAFC/WAFL development system, changing demographics …” have affected junior football and resulted in a decline. He says — “Colts are the life blood of any amateur club that is serious about remaining relevant in the competition and wanting to progress up the rankings.” Have those moves by the West Australian Football Commission, which have gone from its governance model—and there is no doubt there were issues, and you mentioned, Mr Nisbett, in the introduction, there were major issues with the local competition—to now having a more operational model and becoming more involved in the day‐to‐day running of football in WA has diminished the ability for the West Australian Football League clubs to connect with their local communities? Mr NISBETT: Mr Chairman, I do not think anyone, including the WAFL clubs, can sit there and say that we have done a good job in our zones with youth football, because I do not believe we have in our state. Five or years ago, when the football clubs or WAFL clubs were responsible for youth football, the deterioration in youth football was massive. That has not been arrested, unfortunately, and with the change to the new competition, again, I would think that the West Australian Football Commission has an opportunity to restructure and perhaps look again and say, “Well, what is the best structure for our Colts competition?”, and therefore youth competition. I think what we missed is the opportunity to have a larger base of participation at youth football and we have concentrated too heavily, probably, on the academy programs and the talent coming through the youth programs, and I think we have made—look, we have not made a mess of it, but we have not got it right. That is our opinion. I have had that opinion for a while through the people that I deal with at our club. Consequently, it is a chance to reflect and perhaps, I guess, reboot what we do, but we certainly need a much larger base and keep people engaged until they are 17, 18 and 19 and all of a sudden we will find that the talent will then rise to the top regardless of how many teams and how much focus there is on certain elements of the youth football pathway. Mr D.C. NALDER: The WA footy commission has expressed that they believe the drafting age is too young; the WAFL clubs have said something similar. We see this out in the community where people are talking about what happens in the US system and all of that. I am keen to hear whether both AFL clubs have a similar view or what your view is on the drafting age of Western Australian youth. Mr NISBETT: Mr Nalder, we have always been very clear that we think it is too young at 18. We think the opportunity to lift that drafting age would benefit most—I say “most”, the majority of young people—because it gives them an opportunity to go to university for 12 months, start an apprenticeship, do something else other than be drafted and taken across the country. And some of these guys are lost to football. I also think that with the opportunity that some of the young guys get, there is this assumption that some 18‐year‐olds will miss that opportunity. Well, perhaps we could allow one player who is 18 years of age per club to be drafted, rather than 60 throughout the

Public Accounts Wednesday, 16 September 2020 — Session One Page 14 whole . Maybe there is an option there that we should be putting forward. That is only one club’s view. That is our view. I am not sure about Simon’s club, but certainly that would be our view. Mr GARLICK: We are not as strident as Trevor and West Coast in relation to pushing for a change and an increase in the draft age. We understand some of the rationale and the arguments behind it. We do not necessarily see a significant issue with players coming in and out of the system because they are that 12 months too young. As you said, there are some players who are not quite ready and there are some players who are ready, and we think that is going to be the case at 19 or 20 also. We are certainly happy to participate in an industry discussion and to really assess the full impact of changing the draft age in the entire football system. I do not think that work has been done yet, but it is something we are more than happy to participate in. Mr D.C. NALDER: Mr Garlick, do you support Mr Nisbett’s view that youth football has been struggling in Western Australia? Therefore, if that is the situation, is it possible that increasing the drafting age can keep more young people aspiring to and involved in youth football instead of dropping out at such a young age? [11.20 am] Mr GARLICK: The contention is logical, and I understand the argument behind it. If you raised it by 12 months or so, does it keep people within the system? I think the whole issue is pretty complex and nuanced. I do not think it is just youth football in Western Australia that is suffering in that particular demographic and age group. I know it is happening certainly in Tasmania, certainly in the Northern Territory, and in other states. There is a significant challenge that all sports have in that there is a huge amount of options and distractions and entertainment that the youth of today can take. I have read studies from the institute of sport about the challenge in maintaining youth interest in sport overall. I think it is a really challenging issue that is not at all a simple one to confront. I do not discount the potential of raising the draft age having a positive impact, but I do not know if it is the panacea. The CHAIR: We have kept you longer than we said, but just finally, unless one of my colleagues has a question, we talked about the issue of junior development and talent development, and maybe there has been too much emphasis on that upper echelon of talent. Going by the submission of the West Australian Football Commission, roughly $5.5 million or so has been spent on talent development. When you consider, as I said, that the Perth Football League only received $878 000 and country, $1.3 million, are there arguments that too much money is being spent on the academies and the talent development at that upper end, which is going to be coming? As a result of the shrinking of junior development, there is not as much talent, obviously, to work with because of that problem. Is there a need to urgently address that? Is there also an argument to be made that the West Australian Football Commission needs to become less involved in the day‐to‐day operation of football and get back to the governance of football? Mr NISBETT: Would you like me to answer that? Look, I think the football commission took over the talent development program a couple of years ago on the basis that they felt, and the AFL felt, that it was not getting the attention it required, and they were able to secure funding for that program. Prior to that, we were failing with the number of 17s and 16s teams that were playing in community football. I do not know that that has been arrested by the commission taking over that program, so my assumption is that they will be addressing that. But I would say that if the WAFL clubs are putting their hands up and want that investment back in talent, they will need to do a lot of work and have enough resources to be able to cope with that. That is, maybe, a problem, but, certainly, my assumption is that the WA Football Commission would be addressing that. I will reiterate what I said before: I still think we should be really concentrating on keeping our players participating in the

Public Accounts Wednesday, 16 September 2020 — Session One Page 15 game for a longer period of time, rather than funnelling them into just talent programs earlier. If we can keep the participation up, we will get the talent outcomes that we require. The CHAIR: Mr Garlick, do you have any comments? Mr GARLICK: Yes, Mr Chair. I think it is a constantly evolving balance that the commission and, at a higher level, the AFL constantly look to achieve. I think the AFL as an industry has done a remarkable job in having more of a bottom‐up approach. We have seen over the years a lot of Olympic sports look to have a top‐down approach and trickle through the elite and hope that trails down. But programs like , junior development and game development programs that the AFL has invested significantly in—and, again, my caveat being that I have not had the history here in WA; I believe it has been similar here—have been a real strength of the code. That has got to continue. When you talk about some of the mismatches or the ability to look at where funding might be reapportioned, then I think it is something that we have constantly got to strive to review on an annual basis to see if we are getting it right, to ensure, as Trevor said, that we get enough people within the system to allow the talent to come through at the higher end. The CHAIR: Thank you for your evidence before the committee. We will forward a copy of this hearing to you for correction of transcription errors. Please make these corrections and return the transcript within 10 working days of receipt. If the transcript is not returned within this period, it will be deemed to be correct. New material cannot be introduced by these corrections, and the sense of your evidence cannot be altered. Should you wish to provide additional information or elaborate on particular points, please include a supplementary submission for the committee’s consideration when you return your corrected transcript of evidence. I would like to thank you all for being here today. Thank you very much. Hearing concluded at 11.25 am ______