Thursday Volume 587 30 October 2014 No. 53

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 30 October 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 375 30 OCTOBER 2014 376

negotiations next year to ensure that British fisherman House of Commons can continue to fish for the whole year without this disastrous effect? Thursday 30 October 2014 George Eustice: Yesterday, I was in Belfast for the meeting of a stakeholder group of fishing industry The House met at half-past Nine o’clock leaders. We discussed the approach to the December Council. The UK always takes a science-based approach. We have to recognise that it is in the long-term interests PRAYERS of the fishing industry that we fish our fisheries sustainably. That said, we will be looking at mixed fisheries analysis [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] to ensure that we achieve maximum sustainable yield where possible next year and everywhere else by 2020.

Water Bills Oral Answers to Questions 2. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): What plans she has to reduce water bills. [905739]

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss): Ofwat will announce its current price review in December. The draft determinations The Secretary of State was asked— indicate that average water bills in England and Wales will fall by up to 5% in real terms from 2015 to 2020. Marine Management Organisation (Ray Quotas) This will mean lower bills for hard-working taxpayers as part of our long-term economic plan. 1. Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): What steps she is taking to ensure that the Mr Watts: I thank the Secretary of State for her reply, Marine Management Organisation receives additional but is it not the case that the Government have allowed quotas of ray. [905738] water companies to boost their profits by 12% while average households have lost 5% of income? When will The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Government stand up to the fat cat water bosses? Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): The Marine Management Organisation is urgently pursuing Elizabeth Truss: If we look at how much water bills the possibility of quota swaps with other member states. rose under Labour, from 1999 to 2009 bills went up by If sufficient additional quota can be acquired through 20%. Under the new tough regulation of Ofwat, we are this means, a limited reopening of the fishery may seeing a potential reduction of up to 5%, meaning lower be possible. If not, the fishery will reopen again on bills for consumers, more investment in the water industry, 1 January. and cleaner rivers and beaches.

Mr Cox: Last week the important fish processor in Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): One way to my constituency closed its doors, with the loss of many reduce water bills is to reduce unnecessary water jobs. Many marine experts regard the monitoring and consumption, which occurs as more meters are rolled data processing of landing declarations by the MMO as out. Another way to reduce costs is to cut leakage. What a joke. Will the Minister hold an inquiry into the steps are being taken to encourage the water companies management of quota by the MMO? What is he to say to increase the number of meters and to cut their leaks? to northern Devon fishermen and allied trades who have lost their jobs when, as a result of their pioneering Elizabeth Truss: I completely agree with my hon. conservation measures, fish stocks in the Bristol channel Friend. It is important that we make water usage more are abundant? efficient. What we have seen since the industry was privatised 25 years ago is £116 billion of investment to George Eustice: I am very sympathetic to the arguments upgrade infrastructure, reduce leakage, put in meters my hon. and learned Friend makes. Indeed, when he and make the industry more efficient. raised it with me last week I asked the MMO to redouble its efforts to find additional quota. It has been a very Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): What the Secretary of good summer of fishing. We do not normally have this State has studiously avoided telling us is the record of problem with skates and rays. It is something that took this Government since 2010. Will she tell us what the everyone by surprise, including producer organisations. percentage increase in water bills has been since 2010? However, I am keen that lessons are learnt. That is why I will be having discussions with the MMO about how it Elizabeth Truss: The hon. Gentleman will be aware manages the quota on this particular stock. We will also that the early price determinations under this Government be looking to ensure that next year his constituents were the result of the previous Government’s policy. continue to have a quota to fish from 1 January. The recent price determination that has happened under our watch is seeing a potential reduction in the draft Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Will determination of up to 5%. We have already seen water my hon. Friend guarantee to the House today that he companies keep their bills low and stabilised in recent will do everything he can to seek additional quota in the years. 377 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 378

Marine Protected Areas tentative proposal, which we expect to be raised at the December Council, that will look at both bag limits and catch limits, so that we can preserve this vital stock. 3. Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): What recent representations she has received on Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): I wonder the marine charter and marine protected areas. [905740] whether the Minister has ever been to the Isle of Wight, which is of course an island that people can get to only The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for by using a ferry. There is concern on the island that Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): marine protection areas could get in the way of ferries, We regularly receive correspondence about marine protected which are the only regular way to get to the island. areas, including on the marine charter put forward by What is he going to do about that? Link. I will be attending the marine charter parliamentary reception on 19 November. George Eustice: My hon. Friend has extended an invitation to me to visit the Isle of Wight. I look Annette Brooke: As we approach the fifth anniversary forward to a journey on the hovercraft—I think it is the of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, let me say last one we have operating in the UK—to meet his how pleased I am that Dorset was included in the constituents. He has raised concerns about some of the original 27 marine conservation zones. However, does proposed marine conservation zones around the Isle of the Minister agree that there is a long way to go before Wight. I can assure him that socio-economic factors are we can achieve a full network of marine protected areas taken into account when we assess MCZs, as set out in by 2016, as set out in the Act, and can he say what level the 2009 Act. I hope to have the opportunity to visit the of commitment the Government are giving to achieve Isle of Wight in the months ahead. those important objectives? Flooding George Eustice: Earlier this year we announced 37 candidate sites for the second tranche of marine 4. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): conservation zones and we intend to publish a consultation What steps she is taking to ensure that communities on the second tranche in the new year. It is our intention affected by flooding recover. [905742] to have a third tranche in 2016, so the work to take forward additional marine conservation zones is well The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for under way. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson): The Government have committed around £560 million Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): But a lot of the to support those affected by flooding last winter. That work has already been done. For example, a huge includes an extra £270 million to repair and maintain amount of research was done on whether the 127 marine critical flood defences. We are helping households and conservation zones were economically viable. When will businesses through the repair and renew grant and the Minister actually start designating the zones that through council tax and rates relief. Farmers and fishermen are needed if we are to have an ecologically coherent are receiving funding for repairs through existing schemes marine conservation network? and we are supporting businesses through a £10 million hardship fund. George Eustice: We have started designating them. Diana Johnson: After Eton flooded in February, the The first 27 were designated a year ago and, as I said, Prime Minister promised that money would be no object. we are consulting on the second tranche. The Centre for However, for many Hull homes and businesses hit by Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science is doing the December tidal surge, that soon changed to “Out of a huge amount of work—it did a lot of work this sight, out of mind,” and they are still awaiting help. Can summer. We spent around £10 million on research to the Minister tell me what percentage of the promised get the best evidence we can so that these decisions are assistance to flood-hit communities has actually gone informed by the scientific evidence. That work is going to those affected? on, and we plan to do this in three tranches, as we have made clear all along. Dan Rogerson: As I set out to the hon. Lady, there are a number of schemes in place. Some are still paying out Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): I am sure the and will do so until the end of the financial year. If she Minister will agree that marine protected areas are only has particular concerns about issues in her part of the part of the conservation measures we need in our seas. world, I would be happy to meet her, as ever, to discuss Does he agree that more conservation work needs to be them, but those schemes are available to all those affected done, for example on bass, stocks of which, so the by flooding during the period of extreme weather from International Council for the Exploration of the Sea early December last year through to the end of April. informs us, are absolutely plummeting? Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): George Eustice: My hon. Friend makes an important More homes were flooded in 2012-13 across the Yorkshire point. As Minister for the marine environment, he did a region, so I hope the Minister might meet a delegation huge amount to take forward marine conservation zones. of Yorkshire MPs to consider how our roads and bridges When it comes to bass, I can tell him that we expect to might best be recovered. What progress has been made have an important breakthrough in December. We have with the Treasury on having one fund—one budget— always said that there should be technical measures. between capital expenditure and revenue expenditure The stock has been fished unsustainably and there is a for total expenditure on flood spending? That would 379 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 380 help communities to recover more quickly and end the defences are in place to protect any communities where senseless rows about the size of the pump and which the work is still ongoing into November. The vast budget it should come from. majority will be completed by the end of this month.

Dan Rogerson: I thank the Chair of the Environment, Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership Food and Rural Affairs Select Committee for her question, raising issues to do with transport recovery, which have been well supported by the Department for Transport. I 5. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): encourage my hon. Friend and other colleagues from What part her Department has played in negotiating Yorkshire to continue to discuss that with Ministers the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. from that Department. On the distribution of the [905743] maintenance, revenue and capital money that we have invested in flood defences and coastal risk management—a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for record amount of money—we continue to discuss with Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): the Treasury whether flexibilities might be helpful in TTIP could be worth up to £10 billion a year for the this regard. The Select Committee’s work has been of UK. It has the potential to deliver significant opportunities great help. for UK agriculture, food and drink. We are working very closely with BIS to ensure that TTIP maximises the Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): My constituents in benefits for UK businesses and consumers. Morpeth and Hepscott remain extremely concerned about the future of flood risk insurance. Will the Minister Roger Williams: The poultry industry, by which I update us on where the Government are in discussions mean the producers of poultry meat and eggs, have with the insurance companies? driven up animal welfare standards and hygiene in their businesses. Will the Minister assure that industry that Dan Rogerson: The hon. Gentleman’s part of the that progress will not be compromised by unfair competition world has seen investment in flood schemes to help from US producers following lower standards? protect communities and keep them safe, and I understand that that work is coming to a conclusion. On flood George Eustice: I have met members of the poultry insurance, we continue to make progress, along with the industry and the British Poultry Council to discuss their Association of British Insurers, to set up Flood Re, a concerns. We managed to get a very successful free new organisation that will provide affordable flood trade agreement with Canada. Sometimes it is possible insurance to those not provided for in the market. We to work through the sanitary and phytosanitary issues are on track to implement that next year. that the hon. Gentleman raises, as well as animal welfare Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): Like issues, and to establish equivalent rather than identical the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), I have measures. That is the spirit in which we should approach constituents living in flood-risk areas who are struggling the negotiations. to get reasonably priced flood or household insurance. Is there a date by which the insurance companies will Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I welcome the openness offer the new support for which we are looking, and, in of a free trade agreement, but can the Minister tell us the meantime, should they not be a little bit more what steps he is taking to ensure that there are no flexible with constituents living in these areas? mechanisms included in it—such as an investor-state dispute settlement—that would enable powerful vested Dan Rogerson: I am happy to discuss with my hon. interests to bully future Governments into dropping Friend any specific issues he has on behalf of his legislation that would improve food standards? We have constituency. The statement of principles, which exists already seen that happen with the disgraceful action of with the insurance industry, is still in operation up until the Philip Morris tobacco company against the Australian the implementation of Flood Re. We of course have Government. regular discussions with the industry to ensure that people are being offered the flood insurance they need. George Eustice: I know that some people have expressed Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The answer to concern about the use of ISDS. Both the European the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Union and the United Kingdom are very conscious of Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), which the that, and we do not intend to allow such agreements to Minister failed to give, is £403,000 out of the £10 million undermine our ability to set our own welfare and regulatory that the Government promised—less than 5%. That standards when it comes to animal health. applied at the beginning of the summer recess. Tomorrow is 31 October, the day on which the Government promised Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Given that that all the 890 flood defences damaged last year and in this country has been a member of the European Union need of urgent repair would have that work completed. in its various guises for more than 40 years, does my Will the Minister assure us that the 49% of those repairs hon. Friend not think that we could have made faster that had not been completed by last month will be progress in negotiating the trade deal with the United finished by tomorrow, as promised? The people at risk States of America if we had been doing it on our own from those 437 unfinished schemes would really like to rather than relying on the European Union to do it for know. us? Dan Rogerson: The hon. Gentleman will no doubt be George Eustice: My hon. Friend may be right. It aware that work has continued since that reference might have been possible to reach some of these free point in September. The vast majority of those schemes trade agreements more quickly. Indeed, we do make will be completed by the end of the month, and temporary certain changes bilaterally, when it is a question of 381 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 382 breaking down some of the non-tariff barriers to trade. threw out the Secretary of State’s own original guidance, However, being part of a customs union in the EU is of which involved culling 70% of badgers within six weeks significant importance to our food industry, which is in year one. Why did the methodology used to calculate the largest manufacturing industry in the country. the number of badgers change from year one to year two, why does the methodology applying to Somerset Badger Cull differ from that applying to Gloucestershire, and why were the methodologies not subject to independent 6. Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): How many scientific review? Let us go on the evidence. badgers were killed in the recent pilot culls in Elizabeth Truss: An independent audit of the culls is Gloucestershire and Somerset. [905744] currently taking place. A review is also being undertaken The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and by our chief veterinary officer, which is important. The Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss): Bovine tuberculosis is a British Veterinary Association fully supports our terrible disease which threatens the future of our beef comprehensive strategy to deal with bovine TB, and it is and dairy industries. We are pursuing a comprehensive about time the Opposition thought about how they strategy which includes improved cattle movement controls, would deal with this terrible disease rather than criticise vaccination in the edge areas, and culling badgers in our policy, which has been shown, using international areas where the disease is rife. We will publish all the evidence, to deliver. data and the results of this year’s culls once the quality Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Bearing down on this assurance processes and the independent audit have terrible disease in cattle must clearly involve evidence-based been completed. policy making rather than policy-based evidence selection. Further to the question on the scrapping of the independent Paul Flynn: No answer, of course. Why are the expert panel, what will the Government do to ensure Government so determined to carry on with this failed that the evidence collected from this year’s cull is presented project, which is unpopular, ineffective, cruel, and bad to the whole of the scientific community that has expertise science on the part of the nasty party? in this subject?

Elizabeth Truss: Let us remember the situation that Elizabeth Truss: I completely agree with my hon. we inherited in 2010, The last Government failed to Friend; it is important that we base our policies on take any action on this issue, and we ended up with the science and evidence, and I am determined to do that. highest rates of bovine TB in Europe. Are Opposition That is why we are independently auditing the results of Members proud of that record? Are they proud of the this year’s culls, and why we had our chief veterinary fact that the disease increased ninefold on their watch? officer and our chief scientist sign off the numbers for As I have said, we are pursuing a comprehensive strategy those culls. It is important to understand that this is which includes improved cattle movement controls, part of a comprehensive strategy to deal with this issue. vaccination in the edge areas, and culling where the The strategy involves vaccination in the edge zones and disease is rife. cattle movement controls, as well as culls where the disease is rife. It has worked in Australia, and it is Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): If we are concerned working in Ireland and New Zealand. Why will the about all God’s creation, we ought to be just as concerned Opposition not look at the evidence? about cattle as we are about badgers. Is it not the case that the Republic of Ireland, whose beef cattle and Several hon. Members rose— dairy herds are similar to ours and which has had similar problems with TB, has followed exactly the Mr Speaker: Order. We have a lot of questions to get same policies as this Government, and as a consequence through and we must make more timely progress. has seen a 25% reduction in cattle TB infection? Climate Change Elizabeth Truss: My right hon. Friend has made an excellent point about Ireland. A similar policy has been 7. Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): What steps she is pursued in New Zealand, where numbers have also been taking to promote adaptation to climate change. reduced; and Australia, whose comprehensive strategy [905745] involved culling in the wildlife population as well as improved movement controls, has eradicated bovine The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for TB. It is vital to the future of our dairy and beef Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson): industries that we eradicate this terrible disease. We are We are building the nation’s resilience to a changing the Government who are prepared to make difficult climate primarily through the implementation of the decisions, rather than repeating the outrageous failures first “National Adaptation Programme” report, which of the last Government. They left us with the highest DEFRA published last July. This sets out more than rates of bovine TB in Europe: that is the disgrace. 370 actions across key sectors involving Government, business, councils, civil society and academia. The Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Notwithstanding Environment Agency’s Climate Ready Support Service the Secretary of State’s bluster, it is a fact that, following also helps a wide range of organisations to adapt. the catastrophic failures in year one—last year’s failures were catastrophic—in year two the Secretary of State Wayne David: It is clear that the Minister’s Department abolished the independent expert panel, which was too has a real problem with credibility. Will he unequivocally independent for the Government. The Government watered condemn the crazy ideas on climate change expressed down the estimates of the badger populations, and by the previous Secretary of State? 383 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 384

Dan Rogerson: The position of the coalition Government very hard for people in the floodplains of this country, on mitigation and adaptation has been consistent is linked to global warming? When will she be a big throughout. The hon. Gentleman asks for my view on beast, as I hoped she was going to be, or even a little opinions that might have been expressed by the former beast, and bang the table in the Cabinet to get us back Secretary of State. It would seem that he took a different on track on fighting global warming? view on the anthropogenic nature of climate change. However, the Government’s position is clear and has Elizabeth Truss: I completely agree that the erratic remained clear throughout. weather patterns are linked to climate change, which is why my Department is spending a huge amount on 12. [905752]Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): flood defences—we are also getting value for money. Our climate has changed and the risks to the UK have We are the first Government to put in place a six-year increased considerably, yet the Government have forward-looking programme on capital expenditure for abandoned Labour’s climate change strategy. Will the flood defences, meaning that an additional 300,000 homes Minister reverse his Government’s disastrous decision will be protected. to tear up the consensus on the Climate Change Act 2008 and recommit to the recommendations of the Pitt Air Pollution review? 9. Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven Dan Rogerson: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of and Lesmahagow) (Lab): What steps she is taking to State for Energy and Climate Change has played a support local authorities tackling air pollution in leading role in European and international negotiations urban areas. [905748] on carbon emissions, as have other ministerial colleagues. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for I pay tribute to him for doing that. In relation to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson): adaptation and the implementation of the Pitt review, Local authorities are key to achieving improvements in we are moving on that and we are now consulting on the air quality. We are taking steps to support them, including implementation of the sustainable urban drainage enabling them to focus more on practical actions to systems—SUDS—regime, which forms part of the final reduce air pollution through plans to streamline reporting few recommendations in the Pitt report. We are therefore requirements. We have DEFRA’s £1 million air quality making progress, and I thank the hon. Lady for her grant programme, and we are also funding local transport interest in what we are doing. projects. For example, £560 million has been allocated from the Government’s local sustainable transport fund Flood Protection Schemes between 2011 and 2015.

8. Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): How many flood Mr McCann: I thank the Minister for his answer, but protection schemes are beginning construction in 2014. he will know that on 26 September DEFRA published a [905746] report on air pollution showing that there has been no improvement in the UK’s air quality over the past year The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and and that 38 of the 43 zones exceed the legal limit for Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss): Between April 2014 and nitrogen dioxide. What is going wrong? March 2015, 54 major new flood and coastal defence schemes will be starting construction. Over the period Dan Rogerson: We are taking action locally, nationally of this Parliament, we are spending more than £3.2 billion, and at the European level on the regulation of vehicle compared with £2.7 billion in the previous five years, to emissions, which is crucial to tackling this pollution. protect this country from floods. This is one of my key The Government are making progress on the issue, and priorities as Secretary of State. we welcome what local authorities across the country are doing to engage with us on improving air quality Peter Aldous: I am grateful to the Secretary of State locally and meeting our obligations. for her answer, which I am sure the communities that Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): Does the will benefit from the schemes will welcome. Will she Secretary of State welcome the Mayor of London’s ensure that work starts next year on the Lowestoft flood game-changing proposals for an ultra-low emissions alleviation scheme, which will not only protect the zone by 2020, which would go a long way towards properties that were badly damaged in last December’s enabling London to meet existing agreed emissions storm surge but attract new investment and jobs to the standards? Will she ensure that London gets the support town? it needs from central Government to bridge the remaining compliance gap by 2020? Elizabeth Truss: I enjoyed walking along Lowestoft seafront with my hon. Friend. It was rather a blustery Dan Rogerson: I welcome the fact that the Mayor of day, but it is a fine town. I look forward to hearing London has begun consultation on further proposals to further representations from him on the subject. He is a improve air quality in London. I look forward to hearing champion of the people of Lowestoft and I will listen more on the details of what he is proposing and of very carefully to his representations. course remain very willing to discuss with him how we can support that action. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May we ask this quite new Secretary of State to start doing Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Further some joined-up thinking? Is it not about time she joined to the question from the hon. Member for Richmond up the fact that the climate change and the flooding, Park (Zac Goldsmith), given that many, if not most, of which we are getting globally but which is making life the roads breaching agreed European standards are in 385 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 386

London, when was the last time the Minister met the many outstanding issues to be addressed. Today, when I Mayor of London and how confident is he that we will spoke to Mr Stuart Jones from Asterley in my constituency, avoid the fines threatening the UK because of those he highlighted additional complications. Will the Secretary breaches? of State redouble her efforts to tackle the number of regulations faced by our farmers? Dan Rogerson: I have not met the Mayor of London recently, but of course our officials discuss things locally. Elizabeth Truss: I completely agree with my hon. I recently held a workshop with local authorities across Friend. We are making our inspection regime much the country, including those in cities in the north, which more risk based, so that farmers who do the right thing are working hard to tackle local aspects of air pollution. and who are part of schemes such as Red Tractor or Pig As I say, I welcome what the Mayor is doing—his and Poultry get fewer inspections, whereas those who consultation on further measures he might take—and mistreat animals or harm the environment get more of when the Government see the details of those proposals the Government’s attention. we will be happy to discuss how we might support them. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): Rivers and Beaches (Cleanliness) The common agricultural policy payment scheme is being used to trial the Government’s new identity assurance 10. Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): What recent scheme, Verify, but actual authentication is carried out progress she has made on improving the cleanliness of by the private sector company, Experian. Farmers without rivers and beaches. [905749] a credit history are not being authenticated and are not getting their payments. Is getting into debt now a new The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and regulation to be followed before farmers can be paid? Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss): We have made good progress in cleaning up our bathing waters and rivers. Elizabeth Truss: The hon. Lady is absolutely right, Our bathing waters are cleaner now than ever before, and we are introducing a new scheme. It is important with 98% of them passing EU standards. Our rivers are that we do this in an efficient way. We are using and in far better health. Pollution from sewage has gone working on a cross-government process to assure identity. down significantly. For example, phosphate pollution will fall by a fifth and ammonia by a sixth by 2015. Topical Questions Mark Garnier: I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer. I believe she is already familiar T1. [905758] Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne with the majesty of the river Severn running through East) (Lab): If she will make a statement on her my constituency and with the extraordinary work done departmental responsibilities. by the Environment Agency in keeping that river clear. But does she agree that smaller and less impressive The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and rivers such as the river Stour, which also runs through Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss): The priorities of the Kidderminster, are just as important and need just as Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs much attention? are: leading the world in food and farming; protecting our country from floods and animal and plant diseases; Elizabeth Truss: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I improving the environment and championing the enjoyed walking down the Severn as a child when we countryside; and improving rural services. Food and briefly lived in Kidderminster—it is a lovely river. Those farming are core parts of our long-term economic plan, rivers are highly valued for their landscape, recreation, contributing nearly £100 billion to the economy and angling and drinking water supply, and we are involved employing one in eight people. I am sure that the House in many projects to improve the fish stocks on the river will want to join me in celebrating the latest figures that Severn. Overall, this Government have cleaned up show we are now exporting our world-class food and 10,000 miles of river during this Parliament, which is drink to a record number of markets. That includes equivalent to the length of the Amazon and the Nile. more than 1 billion pints of great British beer being sold to 113 countries. Farm Regulation Mr Brown: Will the Secretary of State help Britain’s 11. Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) hard-pressed dairy farmers by supporting fixed-price (Con): What progress she is making in reducing the contracts and looking again at the product labelling burden of regulation on farmers. [905751] regime and take some form of supply chain initiative with retailers and processers to dissuade them, among The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and other things, from using liquid milk as a loss-leader? Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss): Food and farming are vital to the success of our economy. They generate Elizabeth Truss: I met the board of Dairy UK last £100 billion and employ one in eight people. We want to week. I am keen to work to help our industry become enable farmers to spend their time producing high competitive and deal with the increasing exposure to quality British produce, which is why, by the end of this international markets. There are things that can be done Parliament, we will have reduced the volume of DEFRA on price volatility, and I have spoken to the supermarkets guidance by 80%. and the intermediaries on the matter.

Daniel Kawczynski: I know that the Government T2. [905759] Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I have done more than the previous Labour Administration share the concerns of the right hon. Member for on tackling regulations on farmers, but there are still Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) about the UK 387 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 388 dairy industry, which is deeply depressed in many parts have been struggling to secure a realistic price during of the country, and is suffering very large losses. We the summer. How are the Government helping Cornish have an opportunity to debate this matter next week, as mackerel fishermen, and mackerel and herring my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and fishermen throughout the UK, to combat the Russian South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) has secured a trade embargo? debate on it in Westminster Hall. Will the Secretary of State reassure us that she is meeting those concerns and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for is fully engaged with this problem, which threatens Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): much of the dairy industry? As a Cornishman, I am well aware of the importance of the handlining mackerel industry in Cornwall. We have Elizabeth Truss: I am very much engaged with this managed to secure agreement from the Commission to matter, as is the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. allow us to bank up to 25% of this year’s quota to next Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George year, to remove some mackerel from the market if Eustice). On a positive note, dairy exports have risen by necessary. We have also been very successful at reopening 50% since 2010. I was in Paris last week at the SIAL the market in Nigeria, which has been a particularly trade fair—the world’s largest trade fair—and I met important market for many of our mackerel producers. representatives from White Farm Cheddar who are now selling their cheese in the Carrefour supermarket chain T4. [905761] Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): across France. We have good international prospects for Last night, young people from Peru told MPs about the our dairy industry, and we are working hard to open the dire effects that climate change is having on their markets for British producers. agricultural communities, and asked that Governments listen to what people in those communities need. Will Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): The the Minister give support to international and national Secretary of State purports to run a science-based initiatives to tackle climate change once and for all? Department, so what evidence did she use to underpin her decision to withdraw CAP payments from farmers Elizabeth Truss: I completely agree with the hon. with solar panels on their land? Lady that we do face a threat, and that is why this Government are taking action. The Prime Minister Elizabeth Truss: As I have just said, food and farming recently did a new deal on targets for carbon emissions. is one of our largest industries. It contributes £100 billion This Government take the issue very seriously. to the economy. There are 250,000 hectares of commercial roofs where solar panels can be located, but I do not Mr Speaker: Guy Opperman. Not here. Mr Andrew think it is right that we locate solar panels on productive Percy. agricultural land that could be contributing to our economy, and I am sure the hon. Lady would not want Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Thank you, that to happen. Mr Speaker. I am rather pleased he is not here—nothing personal. Maria Eagle: There we have it—the Secretary of May I draw my right hon. Friend’s attention to the State had no underpinning evidence, just an ideological Humber flood risk strategy, which is a joint strategy prejudice. Does not she realise, as the National Farmers supported by all Members of Parliament to get £880 million Union has said, that land can be multifunctional, yielding of investment into the Humber for our defences? The an agricultural benefit as well as producing energy? At a current system does not work for us. We need a specific time when National Grid is having to prepare contingency solution for the Humber. plans to ration energy use this winter because spare generating capacity is at a seven-year low, does she The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for really think her priority should be cutting Britain’s Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson): ability to generate clean electricity? Is not this just My hon. Friend and his colleagues across the House another example of the self-styled greenest Government who represent areas in the Humber estuary rightly ever now resorting, in the Prime Minister’s words, to consistently raise the need to review flood defences getting rid of the “green crap”, regardless of the there and make sure that we have adequate investment. consequences for our energy security? We will be bringing forward a capital programme alongside the autumn statement, and I know that he and his Elizabeth Truss: This Government have a very good colleagues are very much pushing the case for investment record on the environment. We have seen carbon emissions in his area. and air pollution go down and our rivers and water are cleaner. The problem with the hon. Lady’s point is that T5. [905764] Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): she does not seem to understand how important food Investing in research is vital if we are to meet the and farming is to the rural economy. Under her challenges of climate adaptation. Will the Secretary of Government, she failed to deal with animal diseases State be a champion for an increase in our science and the problems in that industry. The reality is that budget, so that we can encourage innovation in both under this Government, we are seeing production expanding the public and private sectors? and overseas markets opening, and food and farming is now a much bigger success. Elizabeth Truss: I am very keen on science. It is vital that we use it better across Government. I have had a T3. [905760] Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) number of discussions with our chief scientist about (Con): Handline mackerel is a superb, sustainably our science strategy, which we will be launching in due caught fish, and many fishermen from my constituency course. We need science not just for the environment, 389 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 390 which is very important, but also for our food and selling. I congratulate my hon. Friend, who has the very farming industry, and that is why we are sponsoring large Kielder forest in his constituency, and I look agri-tech strategies on how to obtain better yields from forward to its future success. our crops and use water more effectively. Through better use of science and technology we can see a real Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): If improvement to our environment. the Secretary of State is so keen on science, why does she not start applying it to the issue of where the T8. [905767] Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): birdsongs have gone? Will she look at Caitlin Moran’s Although west bank residents of the river Severn in recent article on this? The birds are disappearing from Bewdley have benefited from brilliant flood defences, our gardens and our countryside, and they have disappeared those on the east bank live with the uncertainty of the even faster in the past four years. What is she doing Environment Agency’s final solution to local flooding. about that with science? May I urge my right hon. Friend to seriously consider demountable flood barriers to protect the east bank George Eustice: The hon. Gentleman makes an important residents of Beales Corner in Bewdley? point. Some weeks ago I visited the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds’ farm, Hope farm, up in Dan Rogerson: I am aware that there is a long-standing Cambridgeshire. When we announce our new agri- flooding issue at Beales Corner and that, as my hon. environment schemes, measures that will support the Friend says, the Environment Agency is trialling temporary recovery of farmland birds will certainly be among flood defence barriers there. I understand that the trial them. is set to continue until 2017 while longer-term solutions are being considered and the agency, quite properly, Mr Speaker: Last but not least, I call Tessa Munt. consults with the community, but if my hon. Friend has further concerns and would like to write to me, I would be happy to discuss those with him. Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can the Secretary of State find out what has happened to the scheduling of payments for higher-level stewardship Mr Speaker: I call Mr Michael McCann. He has schemes for farmers in my environmentally sensitive toddled out of the Chamber. Goodness knows what is part of Somerset? These have been contracted for a going on. 10-year period but they seem to have been cut, delayed or changed without consultation or notice, and many Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I draw the farmers depend on them for their business. Secretary of State’s attention to the vital role of the Food and Environment Research Agency in detecting and responding to threats to our natural environment George Eustice: I understand the hon. Lady’s point. and the food chain, particularly in the light of the UK An important part of the agri-environment scheme in signing up to the transatlantic trade and investment the next few years will be to fund higher-level stewardship partnership agreement. Will the right hon. Lady think schemes to conclusion. If she has particular concerns, I again about privatising this agency, given its vital role? am happy to discuss those with her. There has been some alignment on the start dates of some of the schemes, but I am not aware of any problems with Elizabeth Truss: That is not what we are doing. We schemes discontinuing. are creating a joint venture. I went to visit FERA in York last week. It is a world-class institution, researching all kinds of things from plant diseases to the security of our food chain, which is very important, so I fully support its efforts. I want to see it much better linked PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION into all the work we do across Government so that we can have a truly science-based strategy. The Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission was Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Hexham (Guy asked— Opperman) raced late into the Chamber like a perspiring postman. It is good of him to drop in on us and now Foreign National Offenders that he has had a chance to recover his breath, let us hear from him. 1. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What process the commission would expect to be followed to T7. [905766] Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): After address the recent issues highlighted by the National that introduction, Mr Speaker, I hope I do not Audit Office’s recent report, “Managing and removing disappoint, but thank you for calling me, in any event. foreign national offenders”. [905728] What steps are being taken to increase the planting of commercial forestry in this country so that we do not The First Secretary of State and Leader of the House face again the problems of yesteryear, and businesses of Commons (Mr William Hague): As the Chairman of have the timber supply they need? the Public Accounts Commission is overseas, I have been asked to reply. The Public Accounts Committee is Elizabeth Truss: There is a huge opportunity to expand taking evidence on the report next week on 5 November. the market for high-quality British timber, and I am The normal process would be for that to be followed by pleased to say that since Grown in Britain started last a report from the Committee, which the Government year, we have seen an 8% increase in the amount of would respond to in due course in the form of a domestic timber and British wood products that we are Treasury minute. 391 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 392

Mr Hollobone: The Leader of the House will be only reason it is here is to help ensure that the arrangements aware that there are far too many foreign national work; it is not putting the Church of England outside offenders serving their sentences in our prisons who gender and equality legislation. Were it to do so, I have should be serving their sentences in prisons back in absolutely no doubt that the Government would have their own country. Will he ensure that the Committee opposed it. has all the resources it needs to expedite its follow-up of this very important report, and that the Government’s response is as speedy as possible? ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE Mr Hague: My hon. Friend knows how seriously the Government take this. Indeed, the NAO report states that the number of removals has increased by 12% over The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the past two years, the time taken to deport foreign the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission national offenders is reducing and the number of failed was asked— removals is decreasing. The Home Secretary has indicated her determination on that. The pursuit of this is a Postal Votes matter for the Public Accounts Committee, rather than the Public Accounts Commission, on whose behalf I 3. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): What am answering today. The Government will continue to estimate the commission has made of the number of take this very seriously. postal votes that arrived late and were not included in the official count at recent elections. [905731]

CHURCH COMMISSIONERS Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon): I am about to give a surprising response, Mr Speaker. The number of postal votes received by returning officers after close of The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church poll at the May 2014 European Parliament elections Commissioners, was asked— was 51,790, compared with just under 5 million postal votes returned before close of poll—around 1% of the Ordination of Women total. Similar electoral data from all major elections since 2004 can be accessed on the commission’s website, 2. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): and I will ask the commission to write to my hon. What assessment the Church of England has made of Friend and place a copy in the Library. the potential effects of clause 2 of the Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Mr Nuttall: Bearing in mind the larger turnout we Measure 2014 on women. [905729] can expect at next year’s general election, that means that around 100,000 people are likely to return their The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony votes, thinking that they have voted, but in fact they will Baldry): The Church’s memorandum to the Ecclesiastical never be counted. Is there anything the Electoral Committee gave a detailed assessment of that provision. Commission can do to try to improve that state of I also refer the hon. Lady to the Lords Hansard report affairs? for 14 October, in which the Archbishop of Canterbury ably explained clause 2. I tried to explain it when I took Mr Streeter: There is an onus on all of us to get the the measure through the House but, given that she has message to our constituents that anyone voting by post tabled this question, clearly I lamentably failed. should ensure that they get their postal vote away in good time, especially if they are voting from overseas. Diana Johnson: I welcome the fact that we have All electoral registration officers can make an arrangement recently had this long overdue Measure through Parliament, with the Royal Mail so that all postal votes in the and the hon. Gentleman will know that I have put in an sorting office on polling day are collected and taken to early bid for the Bishop of Hull to be a woman. However, the returning officer. I think that it is important that all I am concerned about clause 2. Does he share my EROs enter into such arrangements. concern that this country’s established Church will not be governed by the laws of this land? I think that it is a Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): In 2012 the very odd situation for the established Church to be in. law was changed to allow returning officers to write to people whose postal votes were rejected because of Sir Tony Baldry: We are very much governed by the signature or date of birth errors. Surely it would make laws of this land, which is why the Measure had to go to sense to allow them to write to those whose postal votes the Ecclesiastical Committee, a statutory Committee of were returned late to notify them and help ensure that both Houses of Parliament, and then had to be approved they do not do it again. by both the House of Lords and the House of Commons, and last week you, Mr Speaker, announced that it had Mr Streeter: That is an excellent suggestion. It is not been granted Royal Assent. Had the hon. Lady had currently done, but I will certainly take it back to the serious concerned about clause 2, she could have raised commission so that it can pass it on to returning officers. them in the debate—[Interruption.] Yes, she did raise them, but if I had not managed to assuage those concerns Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): How many for her and the House sufficiently, she could have divided people living overseas are eligible to register, and of the House on the matter. Parliament has now agreed to those how many are listed to vote but are too late to get the Measure and—this is the substantive point—the a vote through the post? 393 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 394

Mr Streeter: About 3.5 million Brits live overseas and Levant. I know that he is in discussions with faith are entitled to register to vote. I do not have the figure leaders from across the middle east to see how we can relating to my hon. Friend’s second question—that is work together to try to ensure that some religious shameful and disgraceful on my part, and I will certainly tolerance returns as swiftly as possible. write to him about it. The good news is that overseas The situation is desperate: the world appears to be voters can now register to vote online. That has never going backwards, away from the high principles of the happened before. We can get the message out to people United Nations charter of 1945 and towards a situation in that category that they can register online, which will in which intolerance, rather than tolerance, is increasingly make the process a great deal easier and much more becoming the norm. rapid. Episcopal Vacancies

5. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): CHURCH COMMISSIONERS How many episcopal vacancies he expects there to be in the next 12 months. [905733] The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked— The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry): Between December and July, the Crown Extremism Nominations Commission is due to consider appointments to four vacant diocesan sees: Southwell and Nottingham, 4. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What steps the Gloucester, Oxford, and Newcastle. In addition, nine of Church of England is taking to help tackle extremism the Church’s 68 suffragan sees are either vacant or due in the UK and overseas. [905732] to become vacant over the coming months.

9. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): What steps the Mr Sheerman: I do not suppose that the Church Church of England is taking to help tackle extremism Commissioners can do anything to recognise the wonderful in the UK and overseas. [905737] work by Huddersfield doctor Geraldine O’Hara. Many of us will have heard her diary from Sierra Leone. The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony However, the House could recognise what she is doing. Baldry): The Church of England is taking a significant The Church Commissioners can recognise another woman, role in tackling extremism by supporting the work of Catherine Ogle, the dean of Birmingham, who I believe the Government and by working through its own networks should be an early candidate for bishop. of local communities and the wider international Anglican communion. Sir Tony Baldry: There are a number of very impressive senior women in the Church of England, including Fiona Bruce: Will my right hon. Friend join me in cathedral deans such as the one to whom the hon. condemning the sentence of death by hanging announced Gentleman referred. There are also women archdeacons last week on Asia Bibi, a Christian mother of five and others who I am sure will be in contention for early young children who has already spent four years in jail appointment as women bishops in the Church of England. in Pakistan under that country’s unacceptable blasphemy laws? Will my right hon. Friend join me and others in Church Commissioners (Investment Guidance) the House in sending out a clear message to the Government of Pakistan that they must review this case? 6. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): What guidance the commissioners follow when making Sir Tony Baldry: I fully agree with my hon. Friend. investments; and if he will make a statement. [905734] This is a terrible, grim and desperate case. I fear that it is a stain on the reputation of Pakistan that this young The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony woman should have been in prison for such a long time. Baldry): The investments of the Church Commissioners Far too often around the world, cases of apostasy are the responsibility of the assets committee. They are and the way in which blasphemy laws are used in some guided by a professional investment team supported by cases, as in Pakistan, are a complete offence against the external advisers and the advice of the Church of England principles of the United Nations charter on freedom of ethical investment advisory group. religion. We all need to take every opportunity to express to the Pakistani high commissioner in London and the Miss McIntosh: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, Government of Pakistan how desperate and sad the but I still seek what guidance and criteria the Church world is to see that Pakistan has not managed to resolve Commissioners follow. What is the level of investment that case more swiftly. income from Church of England investments as regards the overall revenue? Andrew Stephenson: One of the biggest concerns of the Christian Churches in Pendle at the moment is the Sir Tony Baldry: The Church Commissioners have persecution of Christian communities by ISIS. Has the investments of just over £6 billion. From that is generated Church of England made any assessment of the threat an annual income of about £100 million, most of which of ISIS to religious minorities in the region? is devoted to clergy pensions, and the rest to helping poorer dioceses across the country, such as Durham Sir Tony Baldry: Only the other day, the Archbishop and Liverpool, and supporting their mission work. The of Canterbury commented that Christianity is at risk of Church Commissioners are advised by the Ethical being completely eliminated from the whole of the Investment Advisory Group. I assure my hon. Friend, 395 Oral Answers30 OCTOBER 2014 Oral Answers 396 and the House, that we take considerable care to monitor ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE any investment that might have an effect in these areas: tobacco, defence, non-military firearms, gambling, The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing pornography, high-interest-rate lending, stem cell research, the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission alcohol, and genetically modified organisms. For each was asked— and every one of those, the assets committee and the Ethical Investment Advisory Group spend hours and Individual Voter Registration (Scotland) hours working to produce detailed policy to try and ensure not only that we do not invest inappropriately 7. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What but that we use our investments to encourage companies recent progress has been made in the transition to to act responsibly. individual voter registration in Scotland. [905735]

Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I think that the Church of Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): Due to England believes in having partnerships of constructive the recent referendum, the transition to individual voter engagement with the companies in which it invests. registration in Scotland started only on 19 September. Therefore, will the Church Commissioners, first, call for The commission will report on initial progress of the SOCO International, an oil and gas exploration firm in transition in November, with similar information to be which it has shares, to launch an independent investigation published on its recent analysis of progress made in into the allegations of corruption and violence that it England and Wales, where 87% of electors were matched has attracted in its dealings with the Virunga national and can be automatically transferred to the new register. park in Democratic Republic of Congo; and secondly, explain how this investment aligns with the Christian Ann McKechin: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman values of the Church? for his answer. Unfortunately, I have wards in my constituency where fewer than 50% of people were Sir Tony Baldry: I am sorry that the hon. Lady did successfully matched. Given that record numbers registered not give me notice of that question, because I could for and participated in last month’s referendum, including, then have given her a substantive response. I know particularly, 16 and 17-year-olds, what steps will be nothing of the facts of the investment, but I will make taken to ensure that young people are encouraged to do inquiries and write to her. individual voter registration if they are not properly matched under the existing arrangements?

Mr Speaker: I think that the right hon. Gentleman Mr Streeter: I can give an assurance to the hon. Lady. should take it as a compliment that the hon. Lady First, as I said earlier, it is now possible to register assumed that on this matter, as on most others that are online, and for younger people, in particular, that is now raised with him, his knowledge is compendious. very easy to do. Secondly, a public awareness campaign has been launched in Scotland, as I hope that many of Sir Tony Baldry: Sadly, as I keep on telling my her constituents are aware. Finally, and crucially, no constituents, Mr Speaker, I am neither omniscient nor one will come off the register between now and May omnipotent. 2015. If they are on the register today—or were on it a month or two months ago—they will be able to vote in Mr Speaker: That may be a divisible proposition. May 2015. That is an important message. 397 30 OCTOBER 2014 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 398 Rescue Operation) Refugees and Migrants (Search and The UK is also among those member states offering Rescue Operation) substantial numbers of resettlement places for refugees from outside the EU—more than 4,000 between 2008 and 2013—working closely with the United Nations 10.32 am High Commissioner for Refugees. In close partnership with other member states, we are developing a strong Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ programme of work to tackle the causes of migration Co-op) (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of from the horn of Africa, including through investment State for the Home Department if she will make a in regional protection programmes. statement on why the Government have decided not to support search and rescue operations for refugees and It is not in the interests of anyone—most especially migrants in the Mediterranean. those who are genuinely fleeing persecution—if European countries have an uncontrolled and ineffective approach to immigration and asylum. It is not in the interests of The Minister for Security and Immigration (James anyone if the criminal gangs that exploit the fear and Brokenshire): The United Kingdom has a long and suffering of vulnerable people—endangering human proud tradition of providing sanctuary to those who lives for cold, hard cash—are allowed to continue their genuinely need it. We work closely with our European despicable work unimpeded. It is not in the interests of neighbours to provide assistance to those fleeing from anyone if we fail to adapt to a situation which encourages fear or persecution and to deter those whose criminal more and more people to make that dangerous journey actions stand in the way of providing effective help. across the seas. That is why member states across the The scenes we have witnessed in the Mediterranean EU have unanimously agreed to act—to defend our in recent months, with people risking their lives to reach borders, crack down on crime and protect those who so Europe, are hugely distressing. The United Nations desperately need our protection. High Commissioner for Refugees estimates that over 3,000 people have already died attempting to cross the Mark Lazarowicz: The Minister knows that many of Mediterranean this year, compared with some 700 deaths those seeking to make the journey are fleeing war, in the whole of last year. When people are risking life poverty and starvation in places such as Syria and and limb—not just their own, but those of their loved Libya. They know already that the risks of dying en ones too—it is clear that they are caught in a desperate route are high. They are exploited by people traffickers, situation. Nobody underestimates the sincerity of their as the Minister has accepted, and if they are picked up plight. It demands an equally sincere approach from the by European navies or border control, they know they governments of European nations, and that is what it will not be given free entry to Europe, but are likely to has been getting. end up in a detention centre in Italy or to be sent back Since Italy launched its Mare Nostrum operation in to their country of origin. Surely it is obvious that these October 2013, there has been an unprecedented increase refugees and migrants are so desperate given that they in illegal immigration across the Mediterranean and a are still prepared to make these terrible journeys. The fourfold increase in the deaths of those making that idea that search and rescue operations should be perilous journey. The operation has been drawn closer discontinued and that people should be left to die in and closer to the Libyan shore, as traffickers have taken their thousands—presumably in order to discourage advantage of the situation by placing more vulnerable others from making the journey—is not just cruel and people in unseaworthy boats on the basis that they will inhumane, but totally without logic be rescued and taken to Italy. However, many are not Is not the right response for Europe as a whole to rescued, which is why we believe that the operation is support a comprehensive search and rescue operation having the unintended consequence of placing more for refugees and migrants in the Mediterranean? Will lives at risk, and why EU member states have unanimously the Government now reconsider their position and try agreed that the operation should be promptly phased to persuade other European nations to bring that about? out. Why do the Government not listen to the refugee agencies It is, of course, vital that this phasing out is well when they say that the real answer to the problem is to managed and well publicised, to mitigate the risk of provide more safe and legal channels for people to further deaths. It is vital that we continue to take action access protection? to provide real help to those who genuinely need it. This policy is shameful. Surely, when we know that We have made clear our view that the only sustainable hundreds of our fellow human beings face a terrible answer to the current situation in the Mediterranean is death and it is in our power to do something about it, it to enhance operational co-operation within the EU; is our moral duty to act. And if we fail to do so, are we work with the countries of origin and transit to tackle not complicit in their deaths? the causes of illegal immigration and the organised gangs that facilitate it; and enhance support for protection James Brokenshire: I am very proud of this Government’s in north and east Africa for those in need. humanitarian work. The investment we have provided We have agreed to a request from Frontex—the EU’s for places such as Syria—we have committed about border management agency—to deploy a debriefing £700 million to the aid effort that is providing direct expert in support of the new Frontex Operation Triton assistance to those in need—reflects our response. The off the southern Italian coast. This operation is not hon. Gentleman has raised the issue of search and designed to replace Mare Nostrum, but will instead rescue operations, but I want to highlight the fact that patrol closer to EU borders. We stand ready to consider such matters are for individual member states in respect any further request for UK support for the new Frontex of their territorial waters. It is ultimately for Italy to operation. decide how it conducts its search and rescue operations. 399 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 30 OCTOBER 2014 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 400 Rescue Operation) Rescue Operation) The Frontex operation, which I have outlined, provides Moreover, this decision was taken to distract from a surveillance capability and other support at the border. failed immigration policy. With a net migration target I find it inconceivable—the head of Frontex has said in tatters, border security downgraded, a crisis at Calais the same—that support would not be provided if a boat to which the Government have no answer and in desperation were in peril. Obviously, a rescue would be undertaken at the prospect of a by-election loss to UKIP, the in those circumstances. Government needed to be seen doing something— The Government’s view is that, because of the situation anything—to appear tough on immigration, but it will in various parts of the region, a regional solution is not be effective. The Government have provided no required. I have already made the point that assistance evidence that abandoning rescue missions will reduce is required to prevent people from making such perilous the number of people getting on the boats. When will journeys. The judgment of the UK Government and the Government publish the evidence and the impact other Governments across the EU is that the emergency assessment? measures should be stopped at the earliest opportunity. Many of the individuals concerned have no choice in Ultimately, we want to do something that helps, but the matter because they are under the control of human sadly, in our judgment, the emergency measures are not traffickers, as has been said. What is being done, therefore, achieving that end. to tackle trafficking gangs in north Africa and southern Europe? Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I commend the Minister The Government need to start working with our on his statement, which, to be perfectly honest, was full European partners to address the so-called pull factors. of common sense. Is it not the case that since the search Once people are on a boat and are drowning off the and rescue operation began, more and more people coast of Italy, it is too late. We need to intervene far have tried their luck, with the result that there has been earlier. Therefore, when does the Minister next plan to more and more illegal immigration and more and more meet his EU counterparts to discuss the matter? deaths? The solution must therefore be to stop the We must remember that Operation Triton is not only search and rescue operation. Does he agree that the about attempting to stop those who make the dangerous message that should go out from this House is not journey to Europe in boats from coming to harm, but about restoring the operation, but about telling people about protecting our borders. Will the Minister confirm to stop trying their luck in the first place? the reports that the Government are providing just one immigration officer to gather intelligence about those James Brokenshire: Our genuine concern has been to who arrive in Italy by sea? That seems to be totally provide solutions to prevent people from making those inadequate. We need to know what more the Government perilous journeys. As I said in my statement, the sad intend to do to play their part in making Operation reality is that the number of those who have died in the Triton a viable alternative to search and rescue. Mediterranean sea has increased since the introduction Rescuing people who are in danger of drowning is a of the Mare Nostrum operation. It is therefore right to legal obligation under international maritime law, as is look at what assistance can be provided on north African set out in the international convention for the safety of borders through direct aid, and at what further assistance life at sea. The Government may be abandoning their the European External Action Service can give for such efforts in that regard, but what will happen to commercial solutions. The approach of the Government and of boats that intervene, as they are obliged to do? other EU member states is about saving lives, not putting them in peril. James Brokenshire: The hon. Lady has sought to politicise this issue in a way that does not reflect the Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I intent or focus of the Government. thank my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North I say to the hon. Lady clearly that the people who are and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) for securing the urgent responsible for the deaths of those at sea are the organised question, and the Minister for his response. traffickers who seek to exploit the vulnerable by putting After days of silence, it is absolutely right that the them in increasing numbers on boats that are entirely Government should come to the House and answer for unseaworthy.Our judgment is that extending the emergency their decision to abandon search and rescue operations measures has encouraged that and put more lives at in the Mediterranean. No one is suggesting that the risk. That is our primary focus. Indeed, it is the focus problem of migrants entering Europe from north Africa not simply of the UK Government, but the unanimous and the middle east does not need to be addressed, but conclusion of all 28 member states of the EU. leaving people to die in their thousands is not the The hon. Lady made an appropriate point about answer. intervening earlier and looking overseas at the flows of This year alone 150,000 people have been rescued in people across borders far from the Mediterranean sea. the Mediterranean and, as the Minister said, 3,000 That is why I made the point about the aid, assistance people—3,000 men, women and children—have died on and political leadership that the UK provides in that their way over. Most of them were fleeing desperate work. She asked when we would meet other European poverty or war zones, and many of them were under the Ministers. The Italian Government will host a conference control of human traffickers. Instead of trying to reduce in the coming weeks to look at these very issues around this appalling loss of life, the Government have decided the horn of Africa. We look forward to attending and to allow it to increase. The 150,000 people rescued this supporting that conference. year will in future be left at the mercy of the sea: if their The hon. Lady asked about the support that the overcrowded, decrepit boat sinks, they will be left to British Government are providing to Frontex. I want to drown. This is a barbaric abandonment of British values. make it clear that the UK is not a fully participating 401 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 30 OCTOBER 2014 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 402 Rescue Operation) Rescue Operation) [James Brokenshire] issue. I know they have undertaken a number of visits to the region to see the situation for themselves. He is right member of Frontex because it is not in the Schengen to say that the solutions lie in north Africa, which is area, and Frontex is an EU body that is designed to why I made a point about the need for focus and safeguard that area. However, we have always sought to attention there. The mayor of Calais characterised the respond as favourably as we can to any requests that UK as the primary destination, but let us analyse where Frontex makes of the UK. Indeed, the expert to whom asylum applications are being made. The UK anticipates she referred is being provided as a consequence of the around 25,000 applications this year, but France anticipates requests that we have received from Frontex to date. We around 65,000, Sweden around 80,000, and Germany stand ready to look favourably on any further requests more than 200,000. This is an issue for the whole EU, that Frontex may wish to make of the UK Government and it is important, as I have said, to continue to work in support of Operation Triton. together to find solutions. I say again that the focus of the Government is not on short-term political issues, but on examining what Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): The will make a difference in the region and providing the flow of migrants across the Mediterranean is now more necessary humanitarian support. Our judgment is that than just a trickle, and the Minister is right, as is the the steps that are being taken are about saving lives, not right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), to putting lives at risk. say that the solution is to work on the causes of migration. I commend to the Minister the report by the Foreign Sarah Teather (Brent Central) (LD): Claiming that Affairs Committee on instability in north and west rescuing people from drowning in the sea is somehow a Africa, and I put to him a question posed in that report pull factor for people who are fleeing war is an absurd that did not get a very clear answer: if a British warship and deeply unethical thing for the Government to do. finds a boatload of refugees in the middle of the Can the Government not see that more people are Mediterranean, is the policy to escort it back to north travelling because half of the middle east is burning? Africa, or to usher it into a European port? Has the Minister not seen the advice of his own Foreign Office? We cannot wash our hands of these people, James Brokenshire: I thank my right hon. Friend for Pontius Pilate-style. If we are to prevent people from the work of the Foreign Affairs Committee in looking boarding rickety boats and drowning at sea, we will at the pressures in north Africa and across the region. have to work with our European colleagues and find We have a keen focus on and interest in the Committee’s safe routes of travel. Can the Minister not see that he reports and recommendations. On identifying and rescuing has lost any sense of ethical reasoning here? boats at sea, clearly if vessels are in the territorial waters of a particular country I would expect the normal rules James Brokenshire: I entirely reject the analysis that of the sea to apply. That is why Frontex, with its mission my hon. Friend seeks to proffer in this regard. No one is to protect the security of the external European border, turning a blind eye to humanitarian issues or needs. The will focus on the 30-mile limit off the Italian coast. purpose of the actions being taken is to put fewer lives at risk, and I am sorry that she is unable to accept the Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) clear purpose of what we are undertaking. On the idea (Lab): Is the Minister aware that, for many British that boats in need of assistance would simply be ignored, people, including those who share his concern about I point her to the head of Frontex who said that if a protecting our borders, the decision on search and boat in distress is spotted, rescue is the top priority. I am rescue represents a new low? Of course the solution to sure that that is precisely what will happen. those problems lies in north Africa, and of course there must be a regional solution, but consciously pursuing a Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The mayor of Calais policy that will allow people to drown should play no told the Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday that the part in protecting Europe’s borders. Some of us are destination of choice for many who arrive in Italy is reminded of nothing more than the Exodus, the boat Calais and after that London, and £12 million has been that, at the end of the second world war, tried to take allocated in Calais. The unintended consequences of Jewish refugees to Palestine and was turned away by the not allocating support will be that more people will die British Government on precisely the kind of realpolitik in the Mediterranean. I understand why the Minister grounds the Minister has advanced this morning. Just does not want to give succour to people traffickers, but as people look back in shame at what we did in relation that is what will happen. The real problem is the failure to the Exodus and the fleeing Jewish refugees, we will of Frontex to act appropriately to ensure that the look back in shame on the decision he is trying to borders are secure. He will see that at the Greek-Turkish defend today. border, and at Melilla in Morocco where people are climbing over the fence that the Spanish have put up, James Brokenshire: I respect the hon. Lady’s passion this issue will remain a problem. When he goes to Rome and that of other hon. Members, but the harsh reality is will he please also visit Lampedusa and ensure that the that more people are dying in the Mediterranean following real long-term solution is with the countries of north the introduction of Mare Nostrum and the emergency Africa? We must support them in preventing people measures. If we want solutions that save lives, we need from leaving in the first place, and that is where our to examine different options and alternatives. Not just focus should be. the UK Government but 28 other EU member states have come to that same conclusion. The measure cannot James Brokenshire: I am grateful to the right hon. therefore be characterised as a specific action of the UK Gentleman, and I commend him and members of his Government. There has been an EU-wide recognition Committee for the focus they have attached to this that things are simply not working and not saving lives. 403 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 30 OCTOBER 2014 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 404 Rescue Operation) Rescue Operation) The very thing that the hon. Lady wants achieved is every Government—left, right or centre—in the EU. It what we want: we want fewer lives lost and to ensure was never the intention of the United Nations convention that fewer people head out to sea in dangerous boats. on refugees, which was brought in just after the second That is why I make the points about going after organised world war, automatically to give indefinite leave to traffickers, and about finding a regional solution in remain to anyone trafficked from a third country into north Africa and elsewhere. Europe.

Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I congratulate James Brokenshire: My right hon. Friend makes a the Government on reducing the push factors that drive clear point. This did arise from the most recent Justice a lot of immigrants to Europe, by our expenditure and Home Affairs Council meeting, and it was the through the Department for International Development unanimous conclusion of 28 member states across the and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to improve EU. Frankly, to characterise this as a short-term political governance in Africa, but may I also challenge the issue completely misses the point and does not have Minister? Does he believe that the evil people traffickers proper regard for those who are in peril and fleeing are likely to issue a press release saying, “If you make persecution. this journey in future, you are unlikely to be rescued”? Further to the point made by the hon. Member for Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Everyone Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) from the condemns the criminal gangs and everyone would like Opposition Front Bench, does the Minister share my to see people discouraged from coming to Europe for concern that there might be an international lawsuit obvious reasons, but is the Minister aware that this against this country and possibly Europe through the policy will be summed up in three words, namely: let UN convention on the law of the sea and the International them drown? Maritime Organisation sea regulations? The IMO is the only UN body, and it is based just 1 mile from Parliament. James Brokenshire: No, I do not accept that. We will see Frontex, through Operation Triton, conducting James Brokenshire: I do not underestimate the sheer surveillance operations around the coast of Italy. Matters evil of the traffickers. They exploit the vulnerable and of search and rescue remain with Italy and other member put them to sea in boats that are not seaworthy and are states in respect of their territorial waters. They will not necessarily able to reach the shores of the European remain a matter for the Italian Government, who I am Union. That is why I was clear in my statement about sure will take their responsibilities extremely seriously. ensuring that the changes are well communicated and well understood. That must be part of the approach. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): In 2005, the European Rescuing people at sea is a member state competence, Union unanimously pledged to give 0.7% of gross not an EU competence, so it will always be for individual national income to overseas development assistance. member states to ensure that search and rescue operations The EU, with the honourable exception of the UK and are undertaken appropriately, in accordance with the a number of other countries, will singularly fail to meet normal laws of the sea. that pledge. Is today’s announcement not putting the cart before the horse? Should the EU not be investing in Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I measures such as those outlined by the Minister before do not think I have heard a more shameful statement withdrawing support? I ask him to think again. The EU from this Government. This is where we are: this poisonous needs to fulfil the pledges it solemnly made in 2005 and debate about immigration—this monstrous race to the ensure that work is done in north Africa before this bottom between the Government and the UKIP as to kind of support is withdrawn. who can be hardest on immigration—is leaving people to die in the Mediterranean. Is the Minister not absolutely James Brokenshire: To be clear, the EU is not withdrawing ashamed of himself? anything. Mare Nostrum is an Italian initiative. It is supported by the Italian navy, and ultimately decisions James Brokenshire: The only shameful thing I have will be taken by the Italian Government. However, my heard is the hon. Gentleman’s comments. The debate hon. Friend makes a profound and important point has been impassioned, but there has been an understanding about the responsibility of all Governments in the EU of the challenges that individual Governments face in to look at international development in the way that we seeking to address a problem that has got worse. We have: state-building and providing long-term solutions, argue that the steps that have been taken have not as well as ensuring that clear messages are sent and clear assisted in the way that was intended. We cannot turn policies are undertaken bilaterally, or through the external our eyes away from a situation that is getting worse and action service of the EU, to do the very things he has not better. That is why we focus on steps to ensure that outlined. regional solutions are established and supported, and that we have an external border that is surveilled through Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): Why Frontex. If boats are identified as in need of assistance, can the Minister not see that it is not a case of either that is what will happen. addressing the causes in north Africa or dealing with the consequences now, but a question of both? The Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Am I right in hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) mentioned thinking that this was a unanimous decision by all the International Maritime Organisation. Why can the Home Affairs and Justice Ministers throughout the Minister not also see that this is not simply an issue for European Union at a Justice and Home Affairs Council? nation states? It is an issue that needs to be addressed Labour, Liberal and Scottish National another party across the EU, and the Government should be playing colleagues who oppose this are actually out of step with their part. On the so-called pull factor, that is an argument 405 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 30 OCTOBER 2014 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 406 Rescue Operation) Rescue Operation) [Mr Gordon Marsden] promised British passports and were then faced with a Labour Home Secretary who, when push came to shove, that could have been used to discourage people from pulled up the drawbridge. setting up the Kindertransport before the second world As for today’s issue, as a constituency MP in war. Wolverhampton, I am struck by the size of the backlog of cases that immigration staff have to deal with. Will James Brokenshire: We play our part within the EU. the Minister update the House on the legacy bequeathed We continue to lead discussions with individual member to us by the last Government, not just in the economy states and across the EU membership on long-term and but in terms of immigration and asylum cases? short-term solutions to why people are getting on those boats and to the transit of people across nations to the James Brokenshire: I am grateful to my hon. Friend north African coast. We take that responsibility very for highlighting his direct personal experience and the seriously, backed up not just by rhetoric but by investment need for care to be taken in the tone we use. I am sorry through our international development focus and the that some have sought to characterise this issue in the money provided to support it. We stand proud of the way they have. He is also right to underline the shambles UK Government’s record in providing that assistance. that this Government inherited and the steps we have taken to deal with the problems. The situation is improving and we are dealing with the backlogs—something that Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): It would help was simply ignored by the last Government, who were to reduce the attractiveness of this country as a destination incapable of dealing with them. for illegal immigrants if being an illegal immigrant was made a specific criminal offence, as provided for in the Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): This private Member’s Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the is indeed a shameful decision. How many lives does the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), the Illegal Minister estimate will be saved as a result of abandoning Immigrants (Criminal Sanctions) Bill. Will the Minister search and rescue missions? confirm the Government’s support for that measure? James Brokenshire: The reality, as I have already James Brokenshire: Our focus is on ensuring that we indicated, is that more lives have been lost to date this have strong and effective borders, which is precisely year than were lost in 2013. Our focus is on ensuring what our Border Force is doing, with more checks that this is about reducing the tragic human cost we see undertaken under this Government than under the in the Mediterranean sea. If we can telegraph that clear previous Government. We are also focused on ensuring message to the traffickers in north Africa who are that where people are not here legally—when they come exploiting very vulnerable people, I absolutely believe to this country and are not found to be in need of that is the right thing to do to save lives. humanitarian protection—we put in place measures to see that they are returned. Indeed, I am sure my hon. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): The wars in the Friend will recognise the work done under the Immigration middle east and consequent humanitarian situation are Act 2014 to achieve precisely that: to ensure that, through so dire there that Europe is unlikely to have an impact measures on rented accommodation, bank accounts, on the push factors in the near term. The pressures on driving licences and other issues, the very steps he is countries such as Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey and the advocating are actively assisted. refugee crisis there surely mean that Europe needs to face up to its responsibilities better than it has done to Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The coincidence date. I welcomed what the Minister said about co-operation of events does not necessarily prove a causal link. The with UNHCR and getting more placements here in the Minister has told us that he believes the search and UK. Will he add some detail to that announcement? rescue operation has increased the number of people trying to cross the Mediterranean, but this is during a James Brokenshire: On the latter point, we work period when unrest and wars have continued to grow. closely with UNHCR, in connection with the Syrian Can he prove there is a causal link? Should he not get vulnerable persons relocation scheme, for example. We the evidence first before acting? work with it in identifying those most acutely in need of help and assistance. It is a good partnership and I think it is effective. On the broader issue of various middle James Brokenshire: We expressed our concerns and east countries, my hon. Friend is right to underline the reservations in respect of those very issues in advance of contributions that need to be made by all European the introduction of Mare Nostrum, but we are not Governments. I certainly stand proud when it comes to talking about the assessment simply of the UK the work of the Department for International Development, Government; we are talking about the assessment of 28 which is contributing £145 million to the Arab Partnership member states across the EU that have come to that programme, with the aim of supporting a more stable conclusion. and prosperous middle east and north Africa.

Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I speak on this issue having experienced both sides of the am not going to beat the Minister over the head on this, coin as an east African Sikh. With all the emotionally because Members on all sides of the House share a charged comments we have heard in the Chamber today, great responsibility for the turmoil in the middle east it would be helpful to remind Opposition Members that and other places, which has caused much of the migration many of us of Indian descent who came out of Africa in the first place. I would say, however, that morally I were not particularly proud of the fact that we were cannot stand by without saying that I think it is repugnant 407 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 30 OCTOBER 2014 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 408 Rescue Operation) Rescue Operation) that we leave children and families to perish in this way. communicated and well addressed. Our focus, and the What I dislike is that we do not have an alternative focus of the aid agencies and the UNHCR, is on saving positive policy. We know the point of embarkation for lives. That is the Government’s motivation, and the many people—often Libya—so why can we not have a motivation of many other agencies. European partnership to tackle the problem proactively? Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): In response James Brokenshire: That is precisely what is happening to the question from the hon. Member for Stourbridge through the work of member states and, indeed, our (Margot James), the Minister referred to the Syrian Foreign Office and DFID. The harsh reality is that we vulnerable persons relocation scheme. It has been reported are seeing those deaths at sea. Our judgment is that that, under that scheme, just 50 of the people who have extending the search and rescue approach that has been had to flee their homes and their country have been taken close to the Libyan coast will mean more people given safe haven in the United Kingdom—just 50 of the putting out to sea in less seaworthy boats in greater 3 million refugees who have had to flee Syria as a result numbers. That is making the situation worse. of this crisis. The Minister is a decent man. Why does he Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): Since Mare not want the United Kingdom to do more to give those Nostrum was established some 12 months ago, 3,000 or who are fleeing brutality a safe and legal route to this more people have lost their lives, notwithstanding the country? presence of more than 30 Italian vessels patrolling the Mediterranean sea. Does my hon. Friend agree that James Brokenshire: I respect the manner in which the the root cause of the problem is the activities of the hon. Lady has asked her question, but the United people traffickers and that one of the best services that Kingdom is playing its full role. For instance, we have both this country and the EU could perform would be invested £700 million in the region, because given the to conduct an information campaign in north Africa to numbers that are involved, a regional solution is required. try to inform and persuade people that if they put their That money is providing direct support for hundreds of lives in the hands of these people, they will very likely thousands of people in the region who are in desperate end up losing them? need of assistance. Our Syrian vulnerable persons relocation scheme is intended to assist those who are most acutely James Brokenshire: I agree with my right hon. Friend in need of help; we have said that it will provide assistance on the messaging and communication around the strategy. for several hundred people over the next three years, However, I say to him most acutely that the organised and that is precisely what it is doing. traffickers are absolutely responsible for the exploitation of the vulnerable, leading to the deaths of scores of Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): It is clear people. That is why we are working very closely with a that the EU’s external frontier is as leaky as a sieve—whether number of European nations to step up our intelligence we are talking about the land border with the ex-Soviet sharing and actively to go after those organised crime Union, the islands between Greece and Turkey, or the groups that are trading in human misery. Mediterranean coast off north Africa—and that Frontex is a highly dysfunctional organisation. Surely part of Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): In all my years the solution would be an effective policing operation off in academic philosophy, I never heard such sophistry as the north African coast, using close-to-shore patrol I have heard from the Minister today. The solution is of vessels. Frontex should be encouraged to work with the course on the north African coast, but if that is the case, north African Governments to register such vessels that solution must be implemented so that people do under north African flags, so that people can be caught not leave in droves before the safety net is taken up. Why close to the shore and returned to their countries of is the Minister taking the safety net away while people origin. are still falling out of a burning building? James Brokenshire: I understand my hon. Friend’s James Brokenshire: It is for the Italian Government concern, but Frontex adds an important element in to determine, as they are the lead in the search and respect of the Schengen external border—the EU border— rescue operations off their coast, when Mare Nostrum and the establishment of Operation Triton. As I have is or is not terminated. It is ultimately a matter for said, the United Kingdom stands ready to support any them. As I have underlined on a number of occasions, requests that may be received, and we will consider such this Government are not turning a blind eye to any of requests very carefully. We are not a full member of the humanitarian suffering. That is why we stand ready Frontex, but it is important that there is that continued to support Frontex on Operation Triton and to take the focus on ensuring that the EU’s external borders are lead on communications around the approach. I say properly maintained. again that the reality—the harsh reality—is that the current arrangements are, in our judgment, making Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Lest we forget, this matters worse, and that is what drives our approach. Government, supported by Her Majesty’s Opposition, Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Over the backed military intervention in Libya. The people who summer, the UNHCR drew attention to an increase in are drowning in the Mediterranean are fleeing the chaos the number of deaths following the introduction of Mare in that country. Is there not a simple moral imperative? Nostrum in October last year. Has the UNHCR made Do we not have a moral obligation to those people until any comments since the announcement of the changes? there is a stable Government in Libya? James Brokenshire: I am aware of a number of points James Brokenshire: As has been made clear by my that have been made in this House and by other agencies. hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East We are keen to ensure that the approach is well (Mr Ellwood), who is the Minister with responsibility 409 Refugees and Migrants (Search and 30 OCTOBER 2014 410 Rescue Operation) [James Brokenshire] Business of the House for north Africa, we are focusing very directly on north Africa, and on Libya in particular. We have a nominated 11.19 am representative to lead that activity after 40 years of Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of misrule in the country. As I have said, Frontex is providing the House give us the business for next week? support at the external border through Operation Triton, and it is the Italian Government, not the EU, who are The First Secretary of State and Leader of the House actively providing search and rescue assistance. That of Commons (Mr William Hague): The business for next applies in the case of all member states. Ultimately, it is week will be as follows: the Italian Government who will decide on matters relating to their own territorial waters. MONDAY 3NOVEMBER—Conclusion of consideration in Committee of the Recall of MPs Bill, followed by motion to approve a money resolution relating to International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill. TUESDAY 4NOVEMBER—Remaining stages of the Modern Slavery Bill. WEDNESDAY 5NOVEMBER—Opposition day (9th allotted day). There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject to be announced. THURSDAY 6NOVEMBER—General debate on UK foreign policy towards Iran followed by general debate on promotion of the living wage. The subjects for both debates were determined by the Backbench Business Committee. FRIDAY 7NOVEMBER—Private Members’ Bills. The provisional business for the week commencing 10 November will include: MONDAY 10 NOVEMBER—Remaining stages of the Childcare Payments Bill. TUESDAY 11 NOVEMBER—Remaining stages of the National Insurance Contributions Bill, followed by business to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. Colleagues will also wish to know that the House will meet at 12 o’clock on this day. I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 6 November will be: THURSDAY 6NOVEMBER—General debate on the US-UK mutual defence agreement.

Ms Eagle: I thank the Leader of the House for announcing next week’s business. I also thank him for the challenge he sets me each week to find much Government legislation to talk about. On Monday, the Justice Secretary’s plan to block any dissent through the courts was halted in the other place as the Government lost three key votes. A brace of Tory ex-Cabinet Ministers backed our amendments to maintain some legal discretion by judicial review, and a former Lord Chief Justice described the Government’s preferred alternative as an “elective dictatorship”. We all know that the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) has been openly conniving with the United Kingdom Independence party to subject the European arrest warrant to judicial review when it is reintroduced. Only this Prime Minister could try to solve the latest challenge to his authority from the Eurosceptics by seeking to abolish judicial review rather than by containing the antics of the hon. Member for North East Somerset. Will the Leader of the House tell us whether the Government will now acknowledge that they have gone too far on judicial review and accept our amendments? 411 Business of the House30 OCTOBER 2014 Business of the House 412

Tuesday is equal pay day—the day when women like his Tory Back Benchers. Members are fleeing the effectively stop being paid for the rest of the year kennel to UKIP, the Eurosceptics are straining at the because of the gender pay gap. The picture is bleak. The leash and Lynton Crosby has sent the dog whistle into pay gap is at 20% and widening, women are earning less overdrive. Anyone who would vote for this lot must be they were a year ago, and the UK has crashed down the barking. world gender equality rankings to 26th place. It is no wonder that the Prime Minister has refused to wear a Mr Hague: Let me turn to the serious parts of the Fawcett feminist T-shirt. Will the Leader of the House questions first. The hon. Lady asked about what she arrange for a debate in Government time on this called the “absence” of legislation. If we look at the Government’s dire record on women, and will he wear business I have just announced, we see that it includes the T-shirt? the Recall of MPs Bill, the Modern Slavery Bill, which With 21 days to go to the by-election in Rochester is of global importance, the Childcare Payments Bill, and Strood, the panic has clearly set in and the work of which will be of enormous help to many people in this Government seems to have been wholly subordinated to country, and the National Insurance Contributions Bill, Tory attempts to outflank UKIP on Europe. We have which, as with any matter of taxation, is extremely had the tantalising, and as yet unfulfilled, promise of important. That is the business of the House in just the yet another “game-changing” European announcement next 10 days, so to say that we have a thin amount of from the Prime Minister. We have had his unconvincing business is a refrain for some week past; it is not Mr Angry performance in Brussels on the ¤2 billion bill relevant to this week. that the Chancellor forgot to tell him about. And we all The hon. Lady asked when there would be a vote on know that half his parliamentary party seem content to opting in to certain measures in justice and home affairs. put our security at risk by plotting to sink the European We have, of course, already decided to opt out of arrest warrant in a move that his former immigration 100 measures, which is the largest return of power from Minister says would make us the “Costa del Crime”. Brussels to Britain ever seen in the history of this Yesterday, the Prime Minister promised a vote on the country. She said that I had announced the business up European arrest warrant before the by-election. The to 17 November, but she was not listening carefully Leader of the House has just announced business up to enough, because I have announced the business up to 17 November, which is just three days before the by-election, 11 November. There is more time before we reach so will he tell us when the vote will actually take place? 20 November, as simple arithmetic makes it possible to Given that the Prime Minister has totally lost control of deduce. his party, Labour Members need plenty of notice to ensure that UK security is not sacrificed on the altar of The hon. Lady asked about the coalition and when the Tory civil war. there will be an opportunity for the House to discuss money resolutions and private Members’ Bills. Those I note the mysterious absence in the future business are discussed on private Members’ Bills days, and this of any reference to the European Union (Referendum) issue was raised in Prime Minister’s questions yesterday. Bill. However, I have managed to get my hands on a It can hardly be said that the House does not have an couple of letters that shed some light on this mystery. opportunity to address these things, but, as she will On Tuesday afternoon, the Tory Chief Whip wrote to have gathered, money resolutions have not been agreed his ever loyal flock announcing: in the Government on the European Union (Referendum) “Today the Liberal Democrats have killed the EU Referendum Bill or the Affordable Homes Bill. She asks whether Bill”. that allows other private Members’ Bills to proceed, In retaliation, the deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats and the answer to that is yes. That is why I have wrote to all Tory MPs stating: announced in the business the money resolution relating “This claim is utterly false”. to the International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill, which will be moved on Monday. What a sad state of affairs; in four and a half years they I am also placing on the Order Paper a motion that will have gone from fluttering eyelashes in the rose garden allow that Bill to go into Committee. Other private to an exchange of “Dear John” letters. But the problem Members’ Bills are, in the light of this situation, able to with all this is: no one seems to have bothered to tell the proceed. House what on earth is going on. Genuinely important Bills are being held up by this farce, so can the Leader of The hon. Lady asked about votes that took place this the House confirm that these two Bills are now dead, in week in the House of Lords, and of course the Bill she order that there can be progress on the others? If the mentions will come to the Commons, we will be able to European Union (Referendum) Bill was so important, consider those amendments and the Government will can the right hon. Gentleman tell us why, in the words have the opportunity to ask the House to reverse them of his coalition colleagues, the Prime Minister if it wishes to do so. I note that yet again she did not “folded like a cheap deckchair” ask—the Opposition never seem to ask—for any debates on, or time to discuss, the economy of this country. We at the first opportunity in the negotiation that could look forward to a few such requests, because since the have ensured its passage? last business questions the GDP figures have shown our Last week, I was harsh on the Chief Whip for his economy to be 3% bigger than it was a year ago and the absence from the Chamber—I note his absence again statistics released yesterday showed the number of workless today. I have since discovered that he was learning some households in this country now to be at its lowest for at skills to help him with the job—at the Westminster dog least 18 years—the figure is lower than at any point of the year competition. May I congratulate him on during the last Labour Government. Although we have coming second with his dog Snowy, which he described our differences in the coalition from time to time, we as “naughty, stubborn and greedy”. That sounds a lot have brought about that transformation of the economic 413 Business of the House30 OCTOBER 2014 Business of the House 414

[Mr Hague] what the Government were doing to help young people with special needs get into employment. His answer was prospects of this country. I will of course convey to the unsatisfactory. Will the Leader of the House arrange a Chief Whip the hon. Lady’s congratulations on his dog debate on the matter in Government time, so that we doing so well in the Westminster dog of the year show. can explore the options available to Government to As the hon. Lady asked about the Government record ensure that young people with special needs can get on policies towards women, I have to remind her that, employment? under Labour, female unemployment rose 24% and under this Government, there are more women in work Mr Hague: Those are important issues, and the than ever before. When the Government whom she Government will have a great deal to say in such a supported left office, 25% of the FTSE 100 boards had debate about what has been achieved. Given the no female members. Now there are no FTSE 100 boards forthcoming business schedule, I cannot offer a debate that have no female members. A higher proportion of in Government time, but the hon. Gentleman can of public appointments have gone to women this year than course pursue a debate in many different ways, including in any year in the previous decade. Half of all honours through the Backbench Business Committee, and I this year have gone to women, which never happened encourage him to do so. under the previous Government. There are more women-led businesses than ever before, and there are, after the Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): My constituent David work that we have done in the Foreign Office over the Harrison was employed through a so-called umbrella past four years, more women ambassadors than ever company in the building trade. His payslip shows deductions before. Since I am on record all over the world as saying for holiday pay, company margin and both employer’s that the great strategic prize of this century is the full and employee’s national insurance. Some umbrella firms economic, social and political empowerment of women are paying part of the wages as expenses to avoid tax. everywhere, it is clear that sometimes I am what a Will the Leader of the House ask the Secretary of State feminist looks like, with or without the T-shirt, and I for Work and Pensions to make a statement on the have no hesitation in saying that. legality of such arrangements and what enforcement Finally, as I always congratulate the hon. Lady on action his Department is taking? something—I have found something to congratulate her on every week so far—I congratulate her on being Mr Hague: I understand my hon. Friend’s concern omitted by Maureen Lipman from the roll-call of reasons about that. I cannot offer a statement, but he may be not to vote Labour any more. Maureen Lipman announced aware that it is oral questions to the Secretary of State that, for the first time in five decades, she will not be for Work and Pensions on Monday, so there will be an voting Labour. She said: early opportunity to ask about that and other issues. “The Chuka Harman Burnham Hunt Balls brigade? I can’t, in all seriousness, go into a booth and put my mark on any one of Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Is it not time, them.” in the interests of the House and of informing public I will draw Maureen Lipman’s attention to the hon. opinion, that we had a debate in Government time on Lady, as she might be worth a vote. the implications of the transatlantic trade and investment partnership? The Leader of the House was in the Chamber Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): for part of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions On Monday, we had a report into HS2 by Sir David when a number of Government Members asked about Higgins. As with many such reports, his raised more food safety. There are also implications for environmental questions than it gave answers. The blight of this project regulations, wages, terms and conditions, and concerns affects many thousands of people along the proposed about the NHS. Would it not be opportune, while the route, including many of my constituents. Uncertainty negotiations are proceeding in secret, to have an open now about the location of the east midlands hub will and public debate about them? only serve to spread this blight even wider. May we please have a statement from the Government about Mr Hague: It is certainly important for these matters when we will know the location of the east midlands to be discussed. The Government will not allow TTIP hub and the route for phase 2, so that people can get the negotiations to harm the NHS. TTIP will not change compensation they need to get on with their lives? the fact that it is up to British Governments alone to Mr Hague: I will draw my hon. Friend’s concerns to decide how British public services, including the NHS, the attention of Transport Ministers. Clearly, the location are run, whoever is in government, and that must remain of the east midlands hub needs to work for both Derby the case. But I understand that the hon. Gentleman and Nottingham, and provide the best possible wider has concerns and different arguments about it. Again, I connectivity to the region. However, that work is in its cannot offer a debate in Government time. A great deal early stages, so it is premature to say that there will be a of the time of the House is now allocated and well used Government statement on it, and unfair to identify any by the Backbench Business Committee, so I encourage particular sites until the Government are more certain him to use those opportunities, as well as to continue to about where that site might go because of the risk of question the Ministers responsible. blight to people’s properties. None the less, I understand the concerns of my hon. Friend and I will draw them to Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): A the attention of the Ministers. hundred years ago, the Chatham-based military cruisers, HMS Cressey, HMS Hogue and HMS Aboukir, were Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Earlier this week, I sunk off the Dutch coast, resulting in the loss of 1,459 men, asked the Minister for Skills and Equalities, the hon. including many from the Medway area, which covers Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) my constituency. As part of this year’s commemoration 415 Business of the House30 OCTOBER 2014 Business of the House 416 of the start of the first world war, it would be a fitting raised all over the world as Foreign Secretary until a few tribute for the Government to designate those wrecks months ago. In that whole region, particularly given under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. what ISIL is doing to so many women, including the May we have an urgent statement from the Defence rape and enslavement of women, this is a very important Secretary on the commemorations of the first world issue. Of course, we must always make clear our views war as we approach Remembrance Sunday? on these important issues to Governments across the middle east, and not hesitate to do so. I certainly Mr Hague: This specific point is under consideration endorse what she has said. by Defence Ministers. My hon. Friend may know that a large number of wrecks have been designated under the Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): The Leader of Protection of Military Remains Act. Since 2002, there the House will be only too aware of the enormous have been five statutory instruments relating to that. sacrifices that the people of the British overseas territories The Ministry of Defence is now considering which and Crown dependencies have made for Queen and ships, from a list of more than 5,000, should be included country over so long, including their contribution in the in the next statutory instrument, but I can confirm that first world war, yet they are still denied the right to lay a the three he has just referred to are part of that wreath at the Cenotaph in their own right. Will he consideration, and I know that the Defence Secretary please, in the final months of this Parliament, ask the will note his strong support for their inclusion. Prime Minister to make a statement to change this position so that on Remembrance Sunday this year, on Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): We should have the anniversary of world war one, for the first time this that debate about the role of the Chief Whip, because Government will allow our territories and dependencies he is not here again. I wonder whether he has something the right to lay their own wreathes and take their place personal against the Leader of the House, whom I have alongside the representatives of the Commonwealth of found to be a very affable fellow in the 35 years that I nations? have known him, despite our political differences. The Chief Whip’s job is just to sit quietly in the corner of the classroom. Does it not come to something when he Mr Hague: As my hon. Friend knows, and as I know cannot do that and is playing truant all the time? very well as a former Foreign Secretary, a wreath is laid on behalf of the overseas territories. I know that he is asking for them to lay it themselves, but the Foreign Mr Hague: I assure the hon. Gentleman, despite all Secretary at the Cenotaph on Remembrance day lays, the nice things that he has just said about me, that I on behalf of all the overseas territories, a wreath that is robustly defend the Chief Whip. He is always busy and decorated and composed of the vegetation and the he is always present, wherever we think he may be. flowers of all the overseas territories. It is a very special wreath laid on their behalf, and a very heavy one, I can Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): The Government tell him. I am not going to commit my right hon. Friend are putting in place a series of initiatives to boost the the Foreign Secretary to giving up his own role in laying northern economy, centred around major cities. However, that wreath, but I will, of course, convey to my right areas such as my own in northern Lincolnshire do not hon. Friend what my hon. Friend has said. benefit from a trickle-down from a neighbouring major city. Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate when we can look at refining those policies so that areas Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): such as mine benefit? The Leader of the House will know that the Smith Commission has been meeting and making steady progress Mr Hague: This is a very important issue as we on more powers for Scotland. One of the things that continue to decentralise as much as possible in England. Smith made abundantly clear was that more powers for It is important to draw my hon. Friend’s attention to Scotland should be considered without condition and the fact that city deals, growth of freedom for local without reference to any other external issue. Will the authorities to spend more of their own resources, are right hon. Gentleman respect that in any subsequent not just for well-known cities. They are also for other debate that we have in this House? Will we have it about parts of the country. In fact, the black country has a Scotland, not about English votes for English laws, to city deal. There is a Preston, South Ribble and Lancashire ensure that the wishes of the Smith Commission are city deal that goes far beyond any city. So it is possible respected? for local authorities outside the main conurbations to benefit from this as well. Mr Hague: The commitments made by all the pro-Union parties on Scotland are unconditional. We have all Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): As I have just made that clear in the House before. Indeed, Lord returned from a visit to Iraq and Kurdistan with the Smith is getting on with that work and constructive Foreign Affairs Committee, and as we are working discussions are taking place. The Government are closely with the Kurds at the moment, may we also ask contributing, when asked, information and analysis to for equal treatment of men and women in Kurdistan? I help that work. There is a legitimate debate about was shocked to find that women are still put in prison fairness to all in the United Kingdom and that is why for adultery in Kurdistan, but men are not. That cannot we have said that issues regarding all the other parts of be right. the United Kingdom must be considered in tandem, but they are not conditional upon progress in Scotland, nor Mr Hague: The right hon. Lady is quite right to raise will they become conditional at any stage. But the hon. this issue. In line with my answer earlier to the shadow Gentleman cannot ask the rest of us to have no discussion Leader of the House, these are the sorts of issues I have about the affairs of the rest of the United Kingdom. 417 Business of the House30 OCTOBER 2014 Business of the House 418

Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): This is a question of Food and Rural Affairs, but it is wholly legitimate for principle and reflects remarks made by the right hon. my hon. Friend to seek to raise the matter in other ways Gentleman in respect of the tabling of money resolutions. on the Floor of the House. One has to study the annals of history to find occasions when a Government have refused to table a money Mr Speaker: I was hoping that we were going to hear resolution, thereby frustrating the clear will of the about the Leader of the House’s judo and other exercise House. Although it may not be entirely unprecedented, regimes, but there might be more of that anon—who it is extremely rare and exceptional for a Government to knows? decline to respect the clearly expressed will of the House by refusing to table a money resolution, so will the Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): May we have a Government be prepared to make a statement on the debate on wildlife crime? The Leader of the House will occasions when this situation occurs so that the House know that two days ago Natural England published a can then express its will again? This is an important report showing that of the 47 hen harriers that it has issue. tagged with transmitters over the past seven years, only four are thought still to be alive. That shows that there Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman is understandably are serious problems and I think that the House should promoting his Bill and would like to have seen a money debate them. resolution for it. He is right that it is unusual but not unprecedented for the Government not to move a money Mr Hague: That is a very important concern. Indeed, resolution. There have been previous instances of that as chair of the Government’s committee on animal under Governments of different parties. He also health issues, including wildlife, I feel very strongly understands that his Bill is a very unusual one, because about it. We fund the wildlife crime unit, which of it is unusual for the expenditure entailed by a private course is intended to tackle these problems, so Ministers Member’s Bill—the precise figure may be disputed—to are very conscious of the issue, and they will have been run into hundreds of millions of pounds. On such further reminded by the hon. Gentleman raising it. issues, the Government must, of course, ask whether they can responsibly provide a money resolution. This Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): On 22 January, is an unusual situation. There is no particular provision the European Scrutiny Committee referred EU Document in our rules for statements about that, but I think I have No. 16930/13, entitled “Free movement of EU citizens”, made clear the Government’s position. for debate on the Floor of the House. After nine months, can the Leader of the House indicate how close we are Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): During to having that debate? Health questions last week, the Secretary of State referred to the importance of peer review, yet the national peer Mr Hague: Well, we are closer than we were nine review programme, which monitors the quality and months ago, but not so close that I can announce it in safety of cancer services across England, is under serious the business for the week ahead. I know that it was an threat of being cut. May we have an urgent debate on important report by the Committee, and that this is an the future of that vital programme? issue on which hon. Members have strong feelings and opinions, so I will undertake to examine the point my Mr Hague: As is often discussed in the House, the hon. Friend has made. Government have a strong record on cancer. We have introduced the cancer drugs fund and put a great deal Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): On the economy, which of emphasis on early diagnosis, and we will continue I raised during Prime Minister’s questions yesterday, with that work. I will draw the point the hon. Lady and which I am happy to discuss with the Leader of the makes to the attention of Health Ministers, but I encourage House anytime, may we have an urgent debate on living her also to pursue it with them at Question Time and standards? In particular, why is it that, despite decreasing through Adjournment or Back-Bench business debates. levels of unemployment, the deficit has increased by 10% over the past year? Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Last Friday I had a very enjoyable lunch with two constituents at the Mr Hague: I wish the hon. Gentleman well in raising William Withering, a Wetherspoon’s pub in Wellington the economy from the Opposition Benches because he in my constituency. The menu listed the calories and is a bit of a lone voice. I welcome his doing so at Prime grams of fat for each food item, which is very helpful Minister’s questions and business questions, and indeed for someone who, like me, is trying to lose weight. the fact that he asks about the deficit, which his leader Given the obesity challenge that the whole country regularly forgets. The deficit is down by more than a faces, may we have a debate on how the Government third from what the coalition Government inherited in can work more closely with the food and drink industry 2010. His party has so far opposed some £83 billion of to see more of that good practice in other restaurants savings in welfare budgets, so we can only imagine what and leisure facilities up and down the land? the deficit would be if it was still in office.

Mr Hague: I am glad that my hon. Friend is touring Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): May we have a debate on the pubs of his constituency while simultaneously fighting the guidance issued in February 2012 by the Treasury obesity—always a challenge, but he appears to be succeeding and the Department for Communities and Local in both objectives. It is something I have often done, Government? It stated that local authorities should and I strongly recommend it to all Members, particularly take steps to stop the use of contracts that allow consultants as elections draw close. We have just had questions on to avoid paying income tax and national insurance food matters to the Secretary of State for Environment, contributions at the rate paid by those on PAYE. 419 Business of the House30 OCTOBER 2014 Business of the House 420

Last week, Somerset county council changed its pay from County Durham, Lance Corporal Siddhanta Kunwar, policy, but, in spite of several amendments that would 1st Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles, aged 28, from have regulated matters, the leader refused an invitation Pokhara, Nepal, Corporal David O’Connor, 40 Commando to align the policy with Government guidance, saying Royal Marines, aged 27, from Havant, Hampshire, Corporal that Parliament should legislate if it really wants Somerset Channing Day, 3 Medical Regiment, aged 25, from county council to follow what it says is “only guidance”. Newtownards, County Down, Captain Carl Manley, Royal May we have a debate to sort the matter out once and Marines, aged 41, Captain James Anthony Townley, Corps for all? of Royal Engineers, aged 29, from Tunbridge Wells, Sergeant Jonathan Eric Kups, Royal Electrical and Mr Hague: It is guidance, and it has been adopted Mechanical Engineers, aged 38, from Nuneaton, across Government Departments and many parts of Warwickshire, Sergeant Gareth Thursby, 3 Yorks, aged local government. It is good practice to adopt it. We are 29, from Skipton, Private Thomas Wroe, 3 Yorks, aged not at a stage of the Parliament in which it is easy to call 18, from Huddersfield, Lance Corporal Duane Groom, for new legislation on any matter; my hon. Friend is free 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, aged 32, from Suva City, to call for that in the coming months, but we do not Fiji, Sergeant Lee Paul Davidson, The Light Dragoons, have the opportunity to introduce it. I am sure that she aged 32, from Doncaster, and Guardsman Karl Whittle, can pursue the point with my colleagues at the Department 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, aged 22, from Bristol.] for Communities and Local Government, who will be [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed interested to hear of her concerns. forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow the deaths of Corporal Jack Leslie Stanley, The Queen’s Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): When can we Royal Hussars, aged 26, from Bolton, Sergeant Luke debate early-day motions 409 to 435, which record and Taylor, The Royal Marines, aged 33, from Bournemouth, honour, and express our sorrow at the deaths of, the Lance Corporal Michael Foley, Adjutant General’s Corps 453 of our brave soldiers killed in Afghanistan? (Staff and Personnel Support), aged 25, from Burnley, Lancashire, Captain Rupert William Michael Bowers, [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed 2nd Battalion The Mercian Regiment, aged 24, from forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow the Wolverhampton, Sergeant Nigel Coupe, 1st Battalion deaths of Captain Thomas Clarke, aged 30, from Cardiff, The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, aged 33, from Lytham Flight Lieutenant Rakesh Chauhan, aged 29, from St. Annes, Lancashire, Corporal Jake Hartley, 3rd Battalion Birmingham, Warrant Officer Class 2 Spencer Faulkner, The Yorkshire Regiment, aged 20, from Dewsbury, West aged 38, Corporal James Walters, aged 36, from Cornwall, Yorkshire, Private Anthony Frampton, 3rd Battalion The Lance Corporal Oliver Thomas, aged 26, from Brecon, Yorkshire Regiment, aged 20, from Huddersfield, Private Sapper Adam Moralee, aged 23, from Newcastle, Captain Christopher Kershaw, 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment, Richard Holloway, aged 29, from Durham, Warrant aged 19, from Bradford, Private Daniel Wade, 3rd Battalion Officer Class 2 Ian Fisher, aged 42, from Essex, Lance The Yorkshire Regiment, aged 20, from Warrington, Corporal James Brynin, The Intelligence Corps, aged 22, Private Daniel Wilford, 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire from Shoreham-by-Sea, Flight Lieutenant Steven Johnson, Regiment, aged 21, from Huddersfield, Senior Aircraftman aged 38, from Collingham, Nottinghamshire, Flight Ryan Tomlin, 2 Squadron RAF Regiment, aged 21, from Lieutenant Leigh Anthony Mitchelmore, aged 28, from Hemel Hempstead, Lance Corporal Gajbahadur Gurung, Bournemouth, Flight Lieutenant Gareth Rodney Nicholas, Royal Gurkha Rifles, aged 26, from Majthana, Nepal, aged 40, from Newquay, Cornwall, Flight Lieutenant Signaller Ian Gerard Sartorius-Jones, 20th Armoured Allan James Squires, aged 39, from Clatterbridge, Flight Brigade Headquarters and Signal Squadran (200), aged 21, Lieutenant Steven Swarbrick, aged 28, from Liverpool, from Runcorn, Cheshire, Rifleman Sachin Limbu, Flight Sergeant Gary Wayne Andrews, aged 48, from 1st Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles, aged 23, from Tankerton, Kent, Flight Sergeant Stephen Beattie, aged 42, Rajghat, Morang, Nepal, Private John King, 1st Battalion from Dundee, Flight Sergeant Gerard Martin Bell, aged The Yorkshire Regiment, aged 19, from Darlington, Squadron 48, from Ely, Cambridgeshire, Flight Sergeant Adrian Leader Anthony Downing, Royal Air Force, aged 34, Davies, aged 49, from Amersham, Buckinghamshire, Sergeant from Kent and Captain Tom Jennings, Royal Marines, Benjamin James Knight, aged 25, from Bridgwater, Sergeant aged 29.] John Joseph Langton, aged 29, from Liverpool, Sergeant [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Gary Paul Quilliam, aged 42, from Manchester, Corporal forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Oliver Simon Dicketts, The Parachute Regiment, aged 27, the deaths of Guardsman Jamie Shadrake, 1st Battalion Marine Joseph David Windall, Royal Marines, aged 22, Grenadier Guards, aged 20, from Wrexham, Wales, Lance Corporal William Thomas Savage, aged 30, from Irvine, Corporal Matthew David Smith, Corps of Royal Engineers, Fusilier Samuel Flint, aged 21, from Blackpool and Private aged 26, from Aldershot, Lieutenant Andrew Robert Robert Murray Hetherington, from the United States of Chesterman, 3rd Battalion The Rifles, aged 26, from America.] Guildford, Warrant Officer Class 2 Leonard Perran Thomas, [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Royal Corps of Signals, aged 44, from Ross-on-Wye, forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Guardsman Craig Andrew Roderick, 1st Battalion Welsh the deaths of Lance Corporal Jamie Webb, 1st Battalion Guards, aged 22, from Cardiff, Guardsman Apete Saunikalou The Mercian Regiment, aged 24, from Wythenshawe, Ratumaiyale Tuisovurua, 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, Kingsman David Robert Shaw, 1st Battalion The Duke of aged 28, from Fiji, Corporal Alex Guy, 1st Battalion The Lancaster’s Regiment, aged 23, from Barrow-in-Furness, Royal Anglian Regiment, aged 37, from St Neots, Sapper Richard Reginald Walker, 28 Engineer Regiment, Cambridgeshire, Lance Corporal James Ashworth, aged 23, from Leeds and Captain Walter Barrie, 1 Scots, 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, aged 23, from Kettering, aged 41, from Glasgow, Lieutenant Edward Drummond- Private Gregg Thomas Stone, 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Baxter, 1st Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles, aged 29, Regiment, aged 20, from Yorkshire, Corporal Michael 421 Business of the House30 OCTOBER 2014 Business of the House 422

[Paul Flynn] from Cheltenham, Marine Nigel Dean Mead, 42 Commando Royal Marines, aged 19, from Carmarthen, Captain Lisa John Thacker, 1st Battalion The Royal Welsh, aged 27, Jade Head, 11 EOD Regiment RLC, aged 29, from from Swindon, Wiltshire, Captain Stephen James Healey, Huddersfield, Colour Sergeant Alan Cameron, 1st Battalion 1st Battalion The Royal Welsh, aged 29, from Cardiff, Scots Guards, aged 42, from Livingston, Scotland, Major Corporal Brent John McCarthy, Royal Air Force, aged 25, Matthew James Collins, 1st Battalion Irish Guards, aged 38, from Priorslee, Telford, Lance Corporal Lee Thomas from Backwell, Somerset and Lance Sergeant Mark Terence Davies, 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, aged 27, from Burgan, 1st Battalion Irish Guards, aged 28, from Liverpool.] Carmarthen, Corporal Andrew Steven Roberts, 23 Pioneer [That this House That this House salutes the bravery Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps, aged 32, from of the armed forces who served in Afghanistan and records Middlesbrough, Private Ratu Manasa Silibaravi, 23 Pioneer with sorrow the deaths of Private Daniel Steven Prior, Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps, aged 32, from Fiji, 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 27, from Guardsman Michael Roland, 1st Battalion Grenadier Peacehaven, East Sussex, Lance Corporal McKee, 1st Guards, aged 22, from Worthing and Sapper Connor Ray, Battalion The Royal Irish Regiment, aged 27, from Banbridge, 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal), County Down, Northern Ireland, Lance Corporal Liam aged 21, from Newport.] Richard Tasker, Royal Army Veterinary Corps, aged 26, [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed from Kirkcaldy, Fife, Scotland, Private Robert Wood, forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow 17 Port and Maritime Regiment Royal Logistic Corps, the deaths of Sapper Elijah Bond, 35 Engineer Regiment aged 28, from Hampshire, Private Dean Hutchinson, Royal Engineers, aged 24, from St Austell, Rifleman 9 Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps, aged 23, from Sheldon Lee Jordan Steel, 5th Battalion The Rifles, aged Wiltshire, Lance Corporal Kyle Cleet Marshall, 2nd 20, from Leeds, Private Thomas Christopher Lake, Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 23, from Newcastle, 1st Battalion The Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment, Private Lewis Hendry, 3rd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 29, from Watford, Lieutenant David Boyce, 1st The aged 20, from Norwich, Private Conrad Lewis, 4th Battalion Queen’s Dragoon Guards, aged 25, from Welwyn Garden The Parachute Regiment, aged 22, from Bournemouth, City, Hertfordshire, Lance Corporal Richard Scanlon, Warrant Officer Class 2 (Company Sergeant Major) 1st The Queen’s Dragoons Guards, aged 31, from Rhymney, Colin Beckett, 3rd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, Gwent, Lance Corporal Peter Eustace, 2nd Battalion The aged 36, from Peterborough, Ranger David Dalzell, 1st Riffle, aged 25, from Liverpool, Private Matthew Thornton, Battalion, The Royal Irish Regiment, aged 20, from 4th Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment, aged 28, from Bangor County Down, Private Martin Simon George Barnsley, Private Matthew James Sean Haseldin, Bell, 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 24, 2nd Battalion The Mercia Regiment, aged 21, from Settle, from Bradford, Private Joseva Saqanagonedau Vatubua, Yorkshire, Rifleman Vijay Rai, 2nd Battalion The Royal 5th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, aged 24, Gurkha Rifles, aged 21, from the Bhojpur District, Deaurali from Suva, Fiji, Warrant Officer Class 2 Charles Henry East of Nepal, Marine David Fairbrother, Kilo Company, Wood, 23 Pioneer Regiment Royal Logistic Corps, serving 42 Commando Royal Marines, aged 24, from Blackburn, with the Counter-Improvised Explosive Device Taks Force, Lance Corporal Jonathan James McKinley, 1st Battalion aged 34, from Middlesbrough, and Corporal Steven Thomas The Rifles, aged 33, from Darlington, County Durham, Dunn, 216 (Parachute) Signal Squadron, attached to Sergeant Barry John Weston, Kilo Company, 42 Commando 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment Battlegroup, aged 27, Royal Marines, aged 40, from Reading, Lieutenant Daniel from Gateshead.] John Clack, 1st Battalion The Rifles, aged 24, from [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed North London, Marine James Robert Wright, 42 Commando forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Royal Marines, aged 22, from Weymouth and Corporal the deaths of Private John Howard, 3rd Battalion The Mark Anthony Palin, 1st Battalion The Rifles, aged 32, Parachute Regiment, aged 23, from Wellington, New from Plymouth.] Zealand, Guardsman Christopher Davies, 1st Battalion [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Irish Guards, aged 22, from St Helens, Merseyside, Ranger forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Aaron McCormick, 1st Battalion The Royal Irish Regiment, the deaths of Lance Corporal Paul Watkins, 9th/12th Royal aged 22, from Coleraine in County Londonderry, Senior Lancers (Prince of Wales’s), aged 24, from Port Elizabeth, Aircraftsman Scott ‘Scotty’ Hughes, 1 Squadron Royal Republic of South Africa, Highlander Scott McLaren, Air Force Regiment, aged 20, from North Wales, Sapper The Highlanders 4th Battalion the Royal Regiment of William Bernard Blanchard, 101 (City of London) Engineer Scotland, aged 20, from Edinburgh, Private Gareth Leslie Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal), aged 39, from William Bellingham, 3rd Battalion The Mercian Regiment Gosport, Hampshire, Corporal David Barnsdale, 33 Engineer (Stafford), aged 22, from Stoke-on-Trent, Corporal Lloyd Regiment, aged 24, from Tring, Sergeant Peter Anthony Newell, The Parachute Regiment, Craftsman Andrew Rayner, 2nd Battalion The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, Found, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, aged 27, aged 34, from Bradford, Rifleman Suraj Gurung, 1st Battalion from Whitby, Rifleman Martin Jon Lamb, 1st Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles, aged 22, from Gorkha in the Rifles, aged 27, from Gloucester, Lance Corporal Nepal, Corporal Matthew Thomas, Royal Electrical and Martin Joseph Gill, 42 Commando Royal Marines, aged 22, Mechanical Engineers, Sergeant Andrew James Jones, from Nottingham, Corporal Michael John Pike, The Royal Engineers, aged 35, from Newport, South Wales, Highlanders 4th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, Trooper Andrew Martin Howarth, The Queen’s Royal aged 26, from Huntly, Scotland, Lieutenant Oliver Richard Lancers, aged 20, from Bournemouth, Kingsman Darren Augustin, Juliet Company, 42 Commando Royal Marines, Deady, 2nd Battalion The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, aged 23, from Kent, Marine Samuel Giles William Alexander aged 22, from Bolton, Captain Andrew Griffiths, 2nd Battalion MC, Juliet Company, 42 Commando Royal Marines, The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, aged 25, from Richmond, aged 28, from London, Colour Sergeant Kevin Charles North Yorkshire, Lance Corporal Joseph McFarlane Pool, Fortuna, A Company, 1st Battalion The Rifles, aged 36, The Royal Scots Borderers 1st Battalion The Royal 423 Business of the House30 OCTOBER 2014 Business of the House 424

Regiment of Scotland, aged 26, from Greenock, and [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Lance Corporal Jordan Dean Bancroft, 1st Battalion The forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, aged 25, from Burnley.] the deaths of Lance Corporal Andrew Breeze, B (Malta) [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Company, 1st Battalion The Mercian Regiment (Cheshire), forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow aged 31, from Manchester, Private Jonathan Monk, the deaths of Sapper Ishwor Gurung, 69 Gurkha Field 2nd Battalion The Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment, Squadron, 21 Engineer Regiment, aged 21, from Pokhara, aged 25, from London, Lance Bombardier Mark Chandler, Nepal, Sapper Darren Foster, 21 Engineer Regiment, 3rd Regiment Royal Horse Artillery, aged 32, from aged 20, from Carlisle, Rifleman Remand Kulung, 1st Nailsworth, Gloucestershire, Corporal Terry Webster, 1st Battalion The Mercian Regiment (Cheshire), aged 27, Battalion The Mercian Regiment (Cheshire), aged 24, from Nepal, Lietuenant John Charles Sanderson, 1st from Chester, Lance Corporal Alan Cochran, 1st Battalion Battalion The Mercian Regiment (Cheshire), aged 29, The Mercian Regiment (Cheshire), aged 23, from St from Oklahoma, USA, Marine Adam Brown, 40 Commando Asaph, North Wales, Marine Anthony Dean Hotine, 40 Royal Marines, aged 26, from Burtle, near Glastonbury, Commando Royal Marines, aged 21, from Warminster, Lance Sergeant Dale Alanzo McCallum, 1st Battalion Marine Scott Gregory Taylor, 40 Commando Royal Marines, Scots Guards, aged 31, from Hanover, Jamaica, Sapper aged 20, from Buxton, Corporal Stephen Curley, 40 Mark Antony Smith, 36 Engineer Regiment, aged 26, Commando Royal Marines, aged 26, from Exeter, Gunner from Swanley, Kent, Corporal Matthew James Stenton, Zak Cusack, 4th Regiment Royal Artillery, aged 20, from The Royal Dragoon Guards, aged 23, from Wakefield, Stoke-on-Trent, Corporal Stephen Walker, 40 Commando Lance Corporal Stephen Daniel Monkhouse, 1st Battalion Royal Marines, aged 42, from Lisburn, Northern Ireland, Scots Guards, aged 28, from Greenock, Staff Sergeant Corporal Christopher Lewis Harrison, 40 Commando Brett George Linley, The Royal Logistic Corps, aged 29, Royal Marines, aged 26, from Watford, Sapper Daryn from Birmingham, Sergeant David Thomas Monkhouse, Roy, 21 Engineer Regiment, aged 28, from Consett, The Royal Dragoon Guards, aged 35, from Aspatria, County Durham, Lance Corporal Barry Buxton, 21 Engineer Cumbria, Senior Aircraftman Kinikki ‘Griff’ Griffiths, Regiment, aged 27, from Meir, Stoke-on-Trent, Corporal aged 20, Marine Jonathan David Thomas Crookes, 40 Harvey Holmes, 1st Battalion The Mercian Regiment, Commando Royal Marines, aged 26, from Birmingham, aged 22, from Hyde, Greater Manchester, Fusilier Jonathan Marine Matthew Harrison, 40 Commando Royal Marines, Burgess, 1st Battalion The Royal Welsh, aged 20, from aged 23, from Hemel Hempstead, Major James Joshua Townhill, Swansea, Rifleman Mark Turner, 3rd Battalion Bowman, 1st Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles, aged The Rifles, aged 21, from Gateshead and Guardsman 34, from Salisbury, Lieutenant Neal Turkington, 1st Battalion Michael Sweeney, 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards, aged The Royal Gurkha Rifles, aged 26, from Craigavon, and 19, from Blyth in Northumberland.] Corporal Arjun Purja Pun, 1st Battalion The Royal [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Gurkha Rifles, aged 33, from Khibang village Magdi forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow District, Nepal.] the deaths of Rifleman Daniel Holkham, 3rd Battalion [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed The Rifles, aged 19, from Chatham, Kent, Lance Corporal forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow of Horse Jonathan Woodgate, Household Cavalry Regiment, the deaths of Marine David Charles Hart, 40 Commando aged 26, from Lavenham, Suffolk, Sergeant Steven Campbell, Royal Marines, aged 23, from Upper Poppleton, North 3rd Battalion The Rifles, aged 30, from Durham, Lance Yorkshire, Bombardier Samuel Joseph Robinson, Corporal Scott Hardy, 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian 5th Regiment Royal Artillery, aged 31, from Carmarthen, Regiment, aged 26, from Chelmsford, Private James Private Thomas Sephton, 1st Battalion The Mercian Grigg, 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment, aged 20, Regiment, aged 20, from Warrington, Trooper James from Hartismere, Suffolk, Captain Martin Driver, Anthony Leverett, Royal Dragoon Guards, aged 20, from 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment, aged 31, Sheffield, Corporal Seth Stephens, Royal Marines, Corporal from Barnsley, Corporal Stephen Thompson, 1st Battalion Jamie Kirkpatrick, 101 Engineer Regiment (Explosive The Rifles, aged 31, from Bovey Tracey, Devon, Lance Ordnance Disposal), aged 32, from Llanelli, Bombardier Corporal Tom Keogh, 4th Battalion The Rifles, aged 24, Stephen Raymond Gilbert, 4th Regiment Royal Artillery, from Paddington, London, Rifleman Liam Maughan, aged 36, from Topcliffe, North Yorkshire, Colour Sergeant 3rd Battalion The Rifles, aged 18, from Doncaster, Rifleman Martyn Horton, 1st Battalion The Mercian Regiment, Jonathan Allott, 3rd Battalion The Rifles, aged 19, from aged 34, from Runcorn, Lance Corporal David Ramsden, North Shields, Corporal Richard Green, 3rd Battalion 1st Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment, aged 26, from The Rifles, aged 23, from Reading, Rifleman Carlo Apolis, Leeds, Private Douglas Halliday, 1st Battalion The Mercian 4th Battalion The Rifles, aged 28, from South Africa, Regiment, aged 20, from Wallasey, Merseyside, Private Sergeant Paul Fox, 28 Engineer Regiment, aged 34, from Alex Isaac, 1st Battalion The Mercian Regiment, aged 20, St Ives, Rifleman Martin Kinggett, 4th Battalion The from the Wirral, Sergeant Steven William Darbyshire, 40 Rifles, aged 19, from Dagenham, Senior Aircraftman, Commando Royal Marines, aged 35, from Wigan, Lance Luke Southgate, II Squadron Royal Air Force Regiment, Corporal Michael Taylor, Charlie Company, 40 Commando aged 20, from Bury St Edmunds, Lance Sergeant David Royal Marines, aged 30, from Rhyl, Marine Paul Warren, ‘Davey’ Walker, 1st Battalion Scots Guards, aged 36, 40 Commando Royal Marines, aged 23, from Leyland, from Glasgow, Lieutenant Douglas Dalzell, 1st Battalion Lancashire, Marine Richard Hollington, 40 Commando Goldstream Guards from Berkshire and Sapper Guy Mellors, Royal Marines, aged 23, from Petersfield, Trooper Ashley 36 Engineer Regiment, aged 20, from Coventry.] Smith, Royal Dragoon Guards, aged 21, from York, [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Corporal Taniela Tolevu Rogoiruwai, aged 32, from Nausori, forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Fiji, Kingsman Pomipate Tagitaginimoce, aged 29, from the deaths of Kingsman Sean Dawson, 2nd Battalion The Nausori, Fiji, and Marine Steven James Birdsall, 40 Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, aged 19, from Ashton- Commando Royal Marines, aged 20, from Warrington.] under-Lyne, Manchester, Rifleman Mark Marshall, 425 Business of the House30 OCTOBER 2014 Business of the House 426

[Paul Flynn] Military Police, aged 26, from Manchester, Lance Corporal James Hill, 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards, aged 23, 6th Battalion The Rifles, aged 29, from Exeter, Lance from Redhill, Surrey, Guardsman James Janes, 1st Battalion Sergeant Dave Greenhalgh, 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, Grenadier Guards, aged 20, from Brighton, Acting Corporal aged 25, from Ilkeston, Derbyshire, Lance Corporal Darren Marcin Wojtak, 34 Squadron RAF regiment, aged 24, Hicks, from Mousehole, Cornwall, Warrant Officer Class 2 from Leicester, Private James Prosser, 2nd Battalion The David Markland, 36 Engineer Regiment, aged 36, from Royal Welsh, aged 21, from Cwmbran, Acting Sergeant Euxton, Lancashire, Corporal John Moore, The Royal Michael Lockett MC, 2nd Battalion The Mercian Regiment, Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion The Royal Regiment of from Monifieth in Angus, Acting Sergeant Stuart McGrath, Scotland, aged 22, from Lanarkshire, Private Sean 2nd Battalion, The Rifles, aged 28, from Buckinghamshire, McDonald, The Royal Scots Borderers, 1st Battalion Trooper Brett Hall, 2nd Royal Tank Regiment, aged 21, The Royal Regiment of Scotland, aged 26, from Edinburgh, from Dartmouth, Kingsman Jason Dunn-Bridgeman, Corporal Liam Riley, 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment, 2nd Battalion The Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, aged 20, aged 21, from Sheffield, Lance Corporal Graham Shaw, from Liverpool, Corporal John Harrison, The Parachute 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment, aged 27, from Regiment, Private Gavin Elliott, 2nd Battalion The Mercian Huddersfield, Lance Corporal Daniel Cooper, 3rd Battalion Regiment, aged 19, from Woodsetts, Worksop, The Rifles, aged 22, from Hereford, Rifleman Peter Aldridge, Nottinghamshire, Lance Corporal Richard Brandon, Royal 4th Battalion The Rifles, aged 19, Corporal Lee Brownson, Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, aged 24, from 3rd Battalion The Rifles, aged 30, from Bishop Auckland, Kidderminster, Sergeant Stuart ‘Gus’ Millar, The Black Rifleman Luke Farmer, 3rd Battalion The Rifles, aged 19, Watch, 3rd Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, from Pontefract, Captain Daniel Reed, 11 Explosive aged 40, from Inverness, Private Kevin Elliott, The Black Ordnance Disposal Regiment, Royal Logistics Corps, Watch, 3rd Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, aged 32, from Rainham, Kent, Private Robert Hayes, aged 24, from Dundee, and Sergeant Lee Andrew Houltram, 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment, aged 19, Royal Marines.] from Cambridge, Sapper David Watson, 33 Engineer [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Regiment (Explosive Ordnance Disposal), aged 23, and forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Rifleman Aidan Howell, 3rd Battalion The Rifles, aged 19, the deaths of Fusilier Shaun Bush, 2nd Battalion The from Sidcup, Kent.] Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, aged 24, from Warwickshire, [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Sergeant Paul McAleese, 2nd Battalion The Rifles, aged 29, forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow from Hereford, Private Jonathon Young, 3rd Battalion the deaths of Lance Corporal Tommy Brown, The Parachute The Yorkshire Regiment (Duke of Wellington’s), aged 18, Regiment, Lance Corporal Christopher Roney, A Company, from Hull, Lance Corporal James Fullarton, 2nd Battalion 3rd Battalion The Rifles, aged 23, from Sunderland, The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, aged 24, from Coventry, Lance Corporal Michael David Pritchard, 4th Regiment, Fusilier Simon Annis, 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment Royal Military Police, aged 22, from Maidstone, Corporal of Fusiliers, from Salford, Fusilier Louis Carter,2nd Battalion Simon Hornby, 2nd Battalion The Duke of Lancaster’s The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, from Nuneaton, Sergeant Regiment, aged 29, from Liverpool, Lance Corporal David Simon Valentine, aged 29, from Bedworth, Private Richard Leslie Kirkness, 3rd Battalion The Rifles, aged 24, from Hunt, 2nd Battalion The Royal Welsh, aged 21, from West Yorkshire, Rifleman James Stephen Brown, Abergavenny, Captain Mark Hale, 2nd Battalion The 3rd Battalion The Rifles, aged 18, from Kent, Lance Rifles, aged 42, from Bournemouth, Lance Bombardier Corporal Adame Drane, 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Matthew Hatton, 40th Regiment Royal Artillery (The Regiment, aged 23, from Bury St Edmunds, Acting Sergeant Lowland Gunners), aged 23, from Easingwold, North John Paxton Amer, 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards, Yorkshire, Rifleman Daniel Wild, 2nd Battalion The from Sunderland, Sergeant Robert David Loughran-Dickson, Rifles, aged 19, from Hartlepool, Private Jason George 4th Regiment Royal Military Police, aged 33, from Deal, Williams, 2nd Battalion The Mercian Regiment, aged 23, Kent, Corporal Loren Owen Christopher Marlton-Thomas, from Worcester, Corporal Kevin Mulligan, The Parachute 33 Engineer Regiment (EOD), aged 28, Rifleman Andrew Regiment, aged 26, Lance Corporal Dale Thomas Hopkins, Ian Fentiman, 7th Battalion The Rifles, aged 23, from The Parachute Regiment, aged 23, Private Kyle Adams, Cambridge, Rifleman Samuel John Bassett, 4th Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 21, Craftsman Anthony The Rifles, aged 20, from Plymouth, Rifleman Philip Lombardi, aged 21, from Scunthorpe, Trooper Phillip Allen, 2 Rifles, aged 20, from Dorset, Sergeant Phillip Lawrence, Light Dragoons, aged 22, from Birkenhead, Scott, 3rd Battalion The Rifles, aged 30, from Malton, Warrant Officer Class 2 Sean Upton, 5th Regiment Royal Warrant Officer Class 1 Darren Chant, 1st Battalion Artillery, aged 35, from Nottinghamshire and Bombardier The Grenadier Guards, aged 40, from Walthamstow, Sergeant Craig Hopson, 40th Regiment Royal Artillery (The Lowland Matthew Telford, 1st Battalion The Grenadier Guards, Gunners), aged 24, from Castleford.] aged 37, from Grimsby, Guardsman James Major, [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed 1st Battalion The Grenadier Guards, aged 18, from Grimsby, forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow and Corporal Steven Boote, Royal Military Police, aged 22, the deaths of Guardsman Christopher King, 1st Battalion from Birkenhead, Liverpool.] Coldstream Guards, aged 20, from Birkenhead, Liverpool, [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Captain Daniel Shepherd, 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps, aged 28, from Lincoln, the deaths of Corporal Nicholas Webster-Smith, Royal Corporal Joseph Etchells, 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment Military Police, aged 24, from Glangwili, Staff Sergeant of Fusiliers, aged 22, from Mossley, Rifleman Aminiasi Olaf Sean George Schmid, Royal Logistic Corps, aged 30, Toge, 2nd Battalion The Rifles, aged 26, from Suva, Fiji, from Truro, Corporal Thomas ‘Tam’ Mason, the Black Corporal Jonathan Horne, 2nd Battalion The Rifles, Watch, 3rd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland, aged 28, from Walsall, Rifleman William Aldridge, aged 27, from Rosyth, Corporal James Oakland, Royal 2nd Battalion The Rifles, aged 18, from Bromyard, 427 Business of the House30 OCTOBER 2014 Business of the House 428

Herefordshire, Rifleman James Backhouse, 2nd Battalion Tom Sawyer, 29 Commando Regiment Royal Artillery, The Rifles, aged 18, from Castleford, Yorkshire, Rifleman aged 26, from Hertfordshire, Corporal Danny Winter, 45 Joe Murphy, 2nd Battalion The Rifles, aged 18, from Commando Royal Marines, aged 28, from Stockport, Castle Bromwich, Birmingham, Rifleman Daniel Simpson, Marine Travis Mackin, Communications Squadron United 2nd Battalion The Rifles, aged 20, from Croydon, Corporal Kingdom Landing Force Command Support Group, aged 22, Lee Scott, 2nd Royal Tank Regiment, aged 26, from from Plymouth, Sergeant Chris Reed, 6th Battalion The King’s Lynn, Private John Brackpool, 1st Battalion Welsh Rifles, aged 25, from Plymouth, Corporal Liam Elms, Guards, aged 27, from Crawley, West Sussex, Rifleman RM, 45 Commando Royal Marines, aged 26, from Wigan, Daniel Hume, 4th Battalion The Rifles, Trooper Christopher Lance Corporal Benjamin Whatley, 42 Commando Royal Whiteside, The Light Dragoons, aged 20, from Blackpool, Marines, aged 20, from King’s Lynn, Corporal Robert Captain Ben Babington-Browne, 22 Engineer Regiment, Deering, Commando Logistic Regiment Royal Marines, Royal Engineers, aged 27, from Maidstone, Lance Corporal aged 33, from Solihull, Rifleman Stuart Nash, 1st Battalion Dane Elson, 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, aged 22, from The Rifles, aged 21, from Sydney, Australia, and Lieutenant Bridgend, Lance Corporal David Dennis, The Light Dragoons, Aaron Lewis, 29 Commando Regiment Royal Artillery, aged 29, from Llanelli, Wales, Private Robert Laws, aged 26, from Essex.] 2nd Battalion The Mercian Regiment, aged 18, from [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Bromsgrove, Worcestershire, Lieutenant Colonel Rupert forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Thorneloe MBE, Commanding Officer, 1st Battalion the deaths of Lance Corporal Steven ‘Jamie’ Fellows, Welsh Guards and Trooper Joshua Hammond, 2nd Royal 45 Commando Royal Marines, aged 28, from Sheffield, Tank Regiment, aged 18.] Marine Damian Davies, aged 27, Sergeant John Manuel, [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed aged 38, from North East England, Corporal Mark Birch, forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow aged 26, from Northampton, Marine Tony Evans, aged 20, the deaths of Major Sean Birchall, 1st Battalion Welsh from Sunderland, Marine Georgie Sparks, aged 19, from Guards, aged 33, Lieutenant Paul Mervis, 2nd Battalion Epping, Marine Alexander Lucas, 45 Commando Royal The Rifles, aged 27 from London, Private Robert McLaren, Marines, aged 24, from Edinburgh, Colour Sergeant The Black Watch, 3rd Battalion The Royal Regiment of Krishnabahadur Dura, 2nd Battalion The Royal Gurkha Scotland, aged 20 from the Isle of Mull, Rifleman Cyrus Rifles, aged 36, from the Lamjung District of Western Thatcher, 2nd Battalion The Rifles, aged 19 from Reading, Nepal, Marine Neil David Dunstan, aged 32, from Lance Corporal Nigel Moffett, The Light Dragoons, Bournemouth, Marine Robert Jospeh McKibben, aged 32, aged 28 from Belfast, Corporal Stephen Bolger, The from County Mayo, Rifleman Yubraj Rai, 2nd Battalion Parachute Regiment, Lance Corporal Kieron Hill, The Royal Gurkha Rifles, aged 28, from Khotang District, 2nd Battalion The Mercian Regiment (Worcesters and Eastern Nepal, Trooper James Munday, aged 21, from Foresters), aged 20, from Nottingham, Lance Corporal the Birmingham area, Lance Corporal Nicky Matson, Robert Martin Richards, Armoured Support Group Royal 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 26, from Marines, aged 24, from Betws-y-Coed, North Wales, Aveley in Essex, Private Jason Lee Rawstron, 2nd Battalion Sapper Jordan Rossi, 25 Field Squadron, 38 Engineer The Parachute Regiment, aged 23, from Lancashire, Warrant Regiment, aged 22 from West Yorkshire, Fusilier Petero officer Class 2 Gary ‘Gaz’ O’ Donnell GM, 1 Explosive ‘Pat’ Suesue, 2nd Battalion The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, Ordnance Disposal Regiment Royal Logistic Corps, aged 40, aged 28 from Fiji, Marine Jason Mackie, Armoured from Edinburgh, Ranger Justin James Cupples, 1st Battalion Support Group Royal Marines, aged 21 from Bampton, The Royal Irish Regiment, aged 29, from County Cavan, Oxfordshire, Lieutenant Mark Evison, 1st Battalion Welsh Ireland, Corporal Barry Dempsey, The Royal Highland Guards, Aged 26, Sergeant Ben Ross, 173 Provost Company, Fusiliers, 2nd Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland, 3rd Regiment Royal Military Police, Corporal Kumar aged 29, from Ayrshire, Signaller Wayne Bland, 16 Signal Pun, 1st Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles, Rifleman Regiment, aged 21, from Leeds and Private Peter Joe Adrian Sheldon, 2 Rifles, from Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Corporal Cowton, 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 25, Sean Binnie, 3 Scots, aged 22, Lance Sergeant Tobie from Basingstoke.] Fasfous, 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, aged 29, Corporal [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Dean Thomas John, Royal Electrical and Mechanical forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Engineers, aged 25 from Neath, and Corporal Graeme the deaths of Sergeant Jonathan Mathews, The Highlanders, Stiff, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, aged 24 4th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, aged 35, from Munster, Germany.] from Edinburgh, Lance Corporal Kenneth Michael Rowe, [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Royal Army Veterinary Corps, aged 24, from Newcastle, forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Corporal Jason Stuart Barnes, Royal Electrical and the deaths of Lance Corporal Christopher Harkett, 2nd Mechanical Engineers, aged 25, from Exeter, Lance Corporal Battalion The Royal Welsh, aged 22, from Swansea, James Johnson, B Company, 5th Battalion The Royal Marine Michael ‘Mick’ Laski, 45 Commando Royal Regiment of Scotland, aged 31, from Scotland, Warrant Marines, aged 21, from Liverpool, Corporal Tom Gaden, Officer 2nd Class Dan Shirley, Air Assault Support 1st Battalion The Rifles, aged 24, from Taunton, Lance Regiment, Royal Logistics Corps, aged 32, from Leicester, Corporal Paul Upton, 1st Battalion The Rifles, aged 31, Warrant Officer 2nd Class Michael Norman Williams, Rifleman Jamie Gunn, 1st Battalion The Rifles, aged 21, 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 40, from from Leamington Spa, Lance Corporal Stephen ‘Schnoz’ Cardiff, Private Joe John Whittaker, 4th Battalion The Kingscott, 1st Battalion The Rifles, aged 22, from Plymouth, Parachute Regiment, aged 20 from Stratford-upon-Avon, Marine Darren ‘Daz’ Smith, 45 Commando Royal Marines, Corporal Sarah Bryant, Intelligence Corps, aged 26, aged 27, from Fleetwood, Lancashire, Corporal Daniel from Liverpool, Corporal Sean Robert Reeve, Royal Signals, ‘Danny’ Nield, 1st Battalion The Rifles, aged 31, from aged 28, Lance Corporal Richard Larkin, aged 39, Paul Cheltenham, Acting Corporal Richard ‘Robbo’ Robinson, Stout, aged 31, Lance Corporal James Bateman, 1st Battalion The Rifles, aged 21, from Cornwall, Captain 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 29, from 429 Business of the House30 OCTOBER 2014 Business of the House 430

[Paul Flynn] Lance Corporal Jake Alderton, 36 Engineer Regiment, aged 22, from Bexley, Major Alexis Roberts, 1st Battalion Staines, Middlesex, Private Jeff Doherty, 2nd Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles, aged 32, from Kent, Colour The Parachute Regiment, aged 20, from Southam, Sergeant Phillip Newman, 4th Battalion The Mercian Warwickshire, Private Nathan Cuthbertson, 2nd Battalion Regiment, aged 36, Private Brian Tunnicliffe, 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 19, from Sunderland, The Mercian Regiment (Worcesters and Foresters), aged 33, Private Daniel Gamble, 2nd Battalion The Parachute from Ilkeston, Corporal Ivano Violino, 36 Engineer Regiment, Regiment, aged 22, from Uckfield, East Sussex, Private aged 29, from Salford and Sergeant Craig Brelsford, Charles David Murray, 2nd Battalion The Parachute 2nd Battalion The Mercian Regiment, aged 25, from Regiment, aged 19, from Carlisle, and Marine Dale Nottingham.] Gostick, 3 Troop Armoured Support Company, Royal [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Marines, aged 22, from Oxford.] forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed the deaths of Private Johan Botha, 2nd Battalion The forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Mercian Regiment, from South Africa, Private Damian the deaths of Drummer Thomas Wright, 1st Battalion Wright, 2nd Battalion The Mercian Regiment, aged 23, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Forresters, aged 21, from Mansfield, Private Ben Ford, 2nd Battalion The from Ripley, Derbyshire, Guardsman Neil ‘Tony’ Downes, Mercian Regiment, aged 18, from Chesterfield, Senior 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, aged 20, from Manchester, Aircraftman Christopher Bridge, C flight, 51 Squadron Lance Corporal Paul ’Sandy’ Sandford, 1st Battalion Royal Air Force Regiment, aged 20, from Sheffield, The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters, aged 23, Private Aaron James McClure, 1st Battalion The Royal from Nottingham, Corporal Mike Gilyeat, Royal Military Anglian Regiment, aged 19, from Ipswich, Private Robert Police, aged 28, Corporal Darren Bonner, 1st Battalion Graham Foster, 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment, The Royal Anglian Regiment, aged 31, from Norfolk, aged 19, from Harlow, Private John Thrumble, 1st Battalion Guardsman Daniel Probyn, 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, The Royal Anglian Regiment, aged 21, from Chelmsford, aged 22, from Tipton, Lance Corporal George Russell Captain David Hicks, 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Davey, 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment, aged 23, Regiment, aged 26, from Surrey, Private Tony Rawson, from Suffolk, Guardsman Simon Davison, 1st Battalion 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment, aged 27, Grenadier Guards, aged 22, from Newcastle upon Tyne, from Dagenham, Essex, Lance Corporal Michael Jones, Private Chris Gray, A Company 1st Battalion The Royal Royal Marines, aged 26, from Newbald, Yorkshire, Sergeant Anglian Regiment, aged 19, from Leicestershire, Warrant Barry Keen, 14 Signal Regiment, aged 34, from Gateshead, Officer Class 2 Michael ‘Mick’ Smith, 29 Commando Guardsman David Atherton, 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, Regiment Royal Artillery, aged 39, from Liverpool, Marine aged 25, from Manchester, Lance Corporal Alex Hawkins, Benjamin Reddy, 42 Commando Royal Marines, aged 22, 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment, aged 22, from Ascot, Berkshire, Lance Bombardier Ross Clark, from East Dereham, Norfolk, Guardsman Daryl Hickey, aged 25, from South Africa, Lance Bombardier Liam 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, aged 27, from Birmingham, McLaughlin, aged 21, from Lancashire, Marine Scott Sergeant Dave Wilkinson, 19 Regiment Royal Artillery, Summers, 42 Commando Royal Marines, aged 23, from aged 33, from Ashford, Kent and Captain Sean Dolan, Crawley, East Sussex, Marine Jonathan Holland, 1st Battalion The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters, 45 Commando Royal Marines, aged 23, from Chorley, aged 40, from the West Midlands.] Lancashire, Lance Corporal Mathew Ford, 45 Commando [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed Royal Marines, aged 30, from Immingham, Lincolnshire, forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Marine Thomas Curry 42 Commando Royal Marines, the deaths of Marine Richard J Watson, 42 Commando aged 21, from East London and Lance Bombardier James Royal Marines, aged 23, from Caterham, Surrey, Marine Dwyer, 29 Commando Regiment Royal Artillery, aged 22.] Jonathan Wigley, 45 Commando Royal Marines, aged 21, [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed from Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire, Marine Gary Wright, forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow 45 Commando Royal Marines, aged 22, from Glasgow, the deaths of James Thompson, Trooper Ratu Sakeasi Lance Corporal Paul Muirhead, 1 Royal Irish Regiment, Babakobau, Household Cavalry Regiment, aged 29, from aged 29, from Bearley, Warwickshire, Lance Corporal Fiji, Trooper Robert Pearson, The Queen’s Royal Lancers Luke McCulloch, 1 Royal Irish Regiment, aged 21, Corporal Regiment, aged 22, from Grimsby, Senior Aircraftman Mark William Wright, 3rd Battalion The Parachute Graham Livingstone, Royal Air Force Regiment, aged 23, Regiment, aged 27, from Edinburgh, Private Craig O’Donnell, from Glasgow, Senior Aircraftman Gary Thompson, Royal The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, 5th Battalion Auxiliary Air Force Regiment, aged 51, from Nottingham, The Royal Regiment of Scotland, aged 24, from Clydebank, Lieutenant John Thornton, 40 Commando Royal Marines, Flight Lieutenant Steven Johnson, aged 38, from Collingham, aged 22, from Ferndown, Marine David Marsh, Nottinghamshire, Flight Lieutenant Leigh Anthony 40 Commando Royal Marines, aged 23, from Sheffield, Mitchelmore, aged 28, from Bournemouth, Flight Lieutenant Corporal Damian Mulvihill, 40 Commando Royal Marines, Gareth Rodney Nicholas, aged 40, from Newquay, Cornwall, aged 32, from Plymouth, Corporal Damian Stephen Flight Lieutenant Allan James Squires, aged 39, from Lawrence, 2nd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment (Green Clatterbridge, Flight Lieutenant Steven Swarbrick, aged 28, Howards), aged 25, from Whitby, Corporal Darryl Gardiner, from Liverpool, Flight Sergeant Gary Wayne Andrews, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, aged 25, aged 48, from Tankerton, Kent, Flight Sergeant Stephen from Salisbury, Wiltshire, Sergeant Lee Johnson, Beattie, aged 42, from Dundee, Flight Sergeant Gerard 2nd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment, aged 33, from Martin Bell, aged 48, from Ely, Cambridgeshire, Flight Stockton-on-Tees, Trooper Jack Sadler, The Honourable Sergeant Adrian Davies, aged 49, from Amersham, Artillery Company, aged 21, from Exeter, Captain John Buckinghamshire, Sergeant Benjamin James Knight, aged 25, McDermid, The Royal Highland Fusiliers, 2nd Battalion from Bridgwater, Sergeant John Joseph Langton, aged 29, The Royal Regiment of Scotland, aged 43, from Glasgow, from Liverpool, Sergeant Gary Paul Quilliam, aged 42, 431 Business of the House30 OCTOBER 2014 Business of the House 432 from Manchester, Corporal Oliver Simon Dicketts, The Mr Hague: We will be able to have a debate about Parachute Regiment, aged 27, Marine Joseph David Windall, those things—[HON.MEMBERS: “When?] Understandably, Royal Marines, aged 22, and Ranger Anare Draiva, the Opposition ask when, but understandably I will 1 Royal Irish Regiment, aged 27, from Fiji.] announce it when I am ready to. It will take place within [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed the parameters that the Prime Minister set out. forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow As my hon. Friend says, it will be important to be the deaths of Lance Corporal Jonathan Peter Hetherington, able to look at these things in detail. Good work in 14 Signal Regiment (Electronic Warfare), aged 22, from Government in recent years has changed how the European South Wales, Corporal Bryan James Budd, 3rd Battalion arrest warrant works. Our domestic changes mean that The Parachute Regiment, aged 29, from Ripon, Lance we can refuse arrest warrants in minor cases and ensure Corporal Sean Tansey, The Life Guards, aged 26, from that a British judge considers whether extradition is Washington, Tyne and Wear, Private Leigh Reeves, Royal proportionate. We can block an arrest warrant where Logistics Corps, aged 25, from Leicester, Private Andrew the incident does not amount to a crime under UK law. Barrie Cutts, Air Assault Support Regiment, Royal Logistics We can prevent lengthy pre-trial detention. Many of the Corps, aged 19, from Mansfield, Captain Alex Eida, concerns that were correctly expressed when the European Royal Horse Artillery, aged 29, from Surrey, Second arrest warrant was brought in have successfully been Lieutenant Ralph Johnson, Household Cavalry Regiment, addressed over recent years. aged 24, from Windsor, Lance Corporal Ross Nicholls, Blues and Royals, aged 27, from Edinburgh, Private Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I will Damien Jackson, 3rd Battalion the Parachute Regiment, try to help the Leader of the House out with talking aged 19, from South Shields, Tyne and Wear, Corporal about the economy. May we have a debate recognising Peter Thorpe, Royal Signals, aged 27, from Barrow-in- the contributions that universities in this country have Furness, Cumbria, Lance Corporal Jabron Hashmi, made to the British economy and international economy? Intelligence Corps, aged 24, from Birmingham, and Captain I am thinking particularly of the university of Warwick, David Patton, The Parachute Regiment, aged 38.] which celebrates its 50th birthday in the coming months. [That this House salutes the bravery of the armed forces who served in Afghanistan and records with sorrow Mr Hague: I join the hon. Gentleman in congratulating the deaths of Sergeant Paul Bartlett, Royal Marines, the university of Warwick on its anniversary and many aged 35, Captain Jim Phillipson, 7 Parachute Regiment other universities on their work. I cannot offer a debate, Royal Horse Artillery, aged 29, from St Albans, Hertfordshire, although I hope we would not disagree about the Lance Corporal Peter Edward Craddock, 1st Battalion importance of this. We are fortunate in this country to The Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment, have many of the leading universities of the world. That aged 31, Corporal Mark Cridge, 7 Signal Regiment, is part of the major contribution that Britain makes to aged 25, Lance Corporal Steven Sherwood, 1st Battalion science, to health, and to so many issues right across the The Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Light globe, and it is very important that we always continue Infantry, aged 23, from Ross-on-Wye, Herefordshire, Private to do so. Jonathan Kitulagoda, The Rifle Volunteers, aged 23, from Clifton, Bedfordshire, Sergeant Robert Busuttil, the Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): There is no Royal Logistic Corps, Corporal John Gregory, the Royal better example of welfare reform in action than giving Logistic Corps, and Private Darren John George, the children the economic security of growing up in a Royal Anglian Regiment.] household in which people earn a regular pay packet. Is it not time to initiate an inquiry into the Helmand The Leader of the House is right to draw the House’s incursion? In 2006, we were told that we were going in attention to the fact that the proportion of workless for three years in the hope that not a shot would be households is now the lowest since records began. fired; at that time, only two British soldiers had been Coming on the back of the largest ever annual fall in killed in combat. Should we not inquire into the matter, unemployment, does not that strengthen the case for a which was possibly the worst military blunder in our full day’s economic debate, with a vote, on the day of history since the charge of the Light Brigade? the autumn statement? Mr Hague: If we were to make a list of military Mr Hague: There is a very good case for economic blunders throughout history, it would be long and debates. The Chancellor will present the autumn statement substantial before we came to anything in the last few in the usual way, but I hope there will be a great deal of years. scope to discuss economic matters after that. I absolutely I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s first point. The agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of the next step is for the House to have a debate or a statement issue of workless households. The number of workless from the Defence Secretary in the coming weeks, given households has gone down by 670,000 since the last our withdrawal from Afghanistan, about the sacrifices general election, and the number of households where made and what has been achieved. Sometimes more has no one has ever worked has gone down by 50,000. That been achieved on some issues in Afghanistan than we is an enormous change in this country that would never sometimes get the credit for. There will be either a have happened under the policies of the Labour party. debate or a statement, and I will be following the matter up. Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Will my Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): When it comes to the right hon. Friend arrange for the Foreign Secretary to vote on the European arrest warrant, among other find out whether the UK could benefit from an emergency matters, may we have the fullest possible debate so that cap on all migrants from within—and, indeed, without—the we can understand the safeguards that have been negotiated European Community, so that in future no more than and whether they are indeed adequate? 100,000 bodies are allowed? 433 Business of the House 30 OCTOBER 2014 434

Mr Hague: As my hon. Friend knows, the Prime Minister has been speaking about this subject, and he Backbench Business will speak about it further in the coming weeks, because it will be important in what the party to which he and I UK Drugs Policy belong believes should be a renegotiation of our relationship with the European Union after the next general election. Mr Speaker: In calling Caroline Lucas to move the It is an important issue in that context. We have already motion, I congratulate her on the award she received taken many measures, such as reducing entitlement to last night at the Pink News awards in Speaker’s House, benefits, including jobseeker’s allowance, on arrival in which I hope will enjoy the acclamation of her colleagues this country. However, I am not aware of any workable across the Chamber. proposal for a cap under existing laws and treaties. 11.59 am Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement by the Secretary of State Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I beg to for Justice on fixed-term recalls? I think that most move, people around the country will believe, and would That this House notes that drug-related harms and the costs to expect, that when a criminal is released from prison society remain high; further notes that the independent UK early, if they commit another offence before the end of Drugs Policy Commission highlighted the fact that Government is spending around £3 billion a year on policies that are often their original sentence they will be sent back to prison counter-productive; believes that an evidence-based approach is for the full duration of that sentence. However, 42% of required in order for Parliament and the Government to pursue recalls are now 28-day fixed-term recalls. In the first the most effective drugs policy in the future; welcomes the nine months of last year, 1,260 burglars were given recommendation of the Home Affairs Select Committee in its 28-day fixed-term recalls instead of serving the full Ninth Report of 2012-13, HC 184, that the Government consider length of their original sentence. May we have a statement all the alternatives to the UK’s failing drug laws and learn from about this, because it causes a lot of alarm to many of countries that have adopted a more evidence-based approach; notes that the Government has responded positively to this our constituents and puts people at unnecessary risk of recommendation and is in the process of conducting an international being a victim of crime? comparators study to consider the effectiveness of national drug policies adopted by a range of countries; and calls on the Government Mr Hague: My hon. Friend raises an important issue, to conduct an authoritative and independent cost-benefit analysis and he will not be the only one with questions about it. and impact assessment of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 and to As he may be aware, the next session of Justice questions publish the results of those studies within the next 12 months. is on 11 November—a week on Tuesday—so I encourage Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. I am delighted to him to raise these subjects directly with the Justice open this debate and would like to start by thanking Secretary then. both the Backbench Business Committee for its support and the nearly 135,000 people who signed the petition I Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): May we have set up on the No. 10 website, which has enabled us to a debate on the importance of ancient woodland in the have this debate. west midlands? In my constituency, proposals for HS2, despite some recent mitigations, will do significant damage The motion notes that drug-related harms and the to ancient woodland near to Hints, and now Lafarge costs to society remain high. It makes the case that there Tarmac has announced that it wants to demolish vast is a wealth of evidence to that effect and calls on the tracts of ancient woodland in Hopwas wood in order to Government to conduct an authoritative and independent quarry for gravel, outraging my constituents. A debate cost-benefit analysis and impact assessment of the Misuse would allow us to discuss the importance of ancient of Drugs Act 1971 and to publish the results of those woodland and how we can protect it. studies within the next 12 months. The motion has been very carefully written so as not Mr Hague: I have no doubt that my hon. Friend speaks to promote one policy model over and above another. It for the concerns of many of his constituents on this. As simply advances the principle that our drugs policy he knows, the hybrid Bill on the first phase of HS2 is in should be based on evidence of what works to reduce Committee, where petitions are being heard. Ancient harm to individuals, communities and families affected woodlands are a very important part of our national by drugs misuse. In order to get that evidence, we need a heritage. Where it has not been possible to avoid such thorough analysis and assessment of the current legislation, sites in relation to HS2, we have been seeking refinements including comparing it with alternative models. For to the proposed line. I am sure he knows that we are that reason, I hope that hon. Members who are in committed to ensuring that appropriate mitigation measures favour of a prohibition-based drugs policy, as well as are in place, including the transplantation of ancient those who advocate alternative approaches, will support woodland soils, where practicable, and the planting of this motion, because, in essence, what it seeks to do is 2 million trees during phase 1 of HS2. get the evidence. Since the 1971 Act was passed, there has been no process of reviewing whether it is achieving its dual objectives of reducing drugs misuse and the associated social harms.

Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I agree with the hon. Lady. It is about 30-odd years since the Act was introduced and there should be a reassessment to see how we can bring it up to date with a proper policy. 435 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 436

Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his I agree. Poverty, social exclusion and inequality all have intervention and absolutely agree with him. Reviews an impact on drug use and drug markets. Research by take place in many other policy areas to check whether the Equality Trust has shown a clear and demonstrable objectives are being met, and it is high time we had such correlation between drug misuse and inequality. There a review of the 1971 Act. is a strong tendency for drug abuse to more common in The Government’s drugs strategy is itself subject to countries, such as the UK, that are more unequal. review, but that is a self-limiting process. In other words, Ending social exclusion must therefore be at the heart it intends to look only at value for money and in terms of any effective strategy to reduce drug-related harms. only of whether the amount spent is more or less than To do that, we need to marshal the evidence. the value of the positive outcomes. That review will be Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): Contrary to press carried out in 2015 and it will not consider whether reports, many of us on the Conservative Benches believe other approaches would be better value for money. that evidence-based policy would be more effective in Neither will it include the negative outcomes—the dealing with the scourge of drugs. presumably unintended consequences—of the policy in its calculations. Caroline Lucas: What the hon. Gentleman says is I warmly welcome today’s publication of the absolutely true. In a sense, this is not a party political Government’s international comparator study. I pay matter: people from across this House and the other tribute to the Minister for Crime Prevention, who is in place believe that we should have an evidence-based his place, for the leadership he has shown in the process. approach, rather than an approach that for too long has The study is very long awaited. It was commissioned on been dictated by fear, particularly fear of the tabloids. It the recommendation of the Home Affairs Committee is important to have this debate. and is a considered review of the different approaches to drug policy pursued around the world. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I congratulate the hon. Lady on her award, even though, as I was The review indicates that introducing an alternative nominated for it, I feel some frustration. It has been a to prohibition would not, contrary to some claims, great pleasure to work with her on this issue. Her voice boost drug use, and it could save millions of pounds if is, and I hope will continue to be, very valuable in this users were treated for addiction rather than jailed. It place. Will she confirm that many newspapers are now seems that the evidence for the issue of drug use to be coming out in favour of change, and that the public moved to the Department of Health, in order for the want change? Today, The Sun shows that roughly two focus to be on treating rather than punishing addiction, thirds of people want a reform of drugs policy. is overwhelming as well. This is just the first step towards a drugs policy that puts harm reduction first, Caroline Lucas: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and I welcome it warmly, but we urgently need to follow on being nominated, and I am sure he will win next up on this comparison of international approaches and time. His point is incredibly important. Until now, learn the lessons from it for our own UK-based legislation. politicians often thought that they were reflecting public That is why this debate is so important. opinion, but they are now massively behind it, as the poll in The Sun absolutely demonstrates. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): May I also congratulate It strikes me as interesting that a time of austerity, the hon. Lady, not only on her award, which is well with the Government seemingly looking under every deserved, but on her work on this issue? In respect of last stone to find money to save, is an odd time not to following up, I also welcome the report led by the consider drugs policy, given that so much money is Minister. The Home Affairs Committee, prompted by invested in the current drugs regime. Yet drugs policy the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), will seems to be completely divorced from the usual hold a separate session specifically on our last set of considerations about public spending and the good use recommendations. It will be held in Cambridge, in of taxpayers’ money, and we simply have no proper honour of the hon. Gentleman, and I hope we can public mechanism for knowing whether the money spent persuade the hon. Lady to come along and speak. on the so-called war on drugs has been put to good effect. Caroline Lucas: I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman No one now buys alcohol in unmarked bottles from for all his leadership on this issue as Chair of the Home the back of a pub—that would be dangerous and Affairs Committee, and to the hon. Member for Cambridge unnecessary—but for 40 years we have left our children (Dr Huppert). I am very happy to take up that kind to do exactly that with drugs. There is no denying that invitation. To be serious, I am very glad that the Home drug misuse has the potential to wreck lives, but surely Affairs Committee is doing that extra piece of very it is time to be honest about the damage caused by the important work. drug laws, which can cause a proliferation of criminality Such work is important because drug misuse destroys and public harm. The entire drugs trade has been individuals, families and communities, and an ineffective handed over to the worlds’ racketeers and gangsters. drugs policy only compounds that damage. All too The drugs market has soared, and that has brought often, success in the war on drugs is measured in untold misery. Essentially, the current market is almost numbers of arrests or seizures of drugs, but many of us wholly uncontrolled. believe that we should assess whether the harms associated From speaking to young people in my constituency, it with drug misuse are rising or declining. is clear that many of them can get hold of drugs far The Home Secretary acknowledged in the foreword more easily than alcohol, which is surely wrong. When to her Government’s drug strategy: someone tries to get hold of alcohol, they at least have “Individuals do not take drugs in isolation from what is to show an ID card if they are thought to be under age. happening in the rest of their lives.” Drug dealers do not care about someone’s ID or anything 437 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 438

[Caroline Lucas] prohibition is an obstacle to education about drugs, and whether our children would be better protected by else; they care only about their profits. I believe that the alternatives, such as strict regulation. Despite all the current policy is based on a deliberate ignorance about accusations that are thrown at those who are in favour the effect of drugs. of drug policy reform, the bottom line is that it is not about being pro-drugs, but about saving lives. The only Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): I congratulate credible way to do that is to know whether our policies the hon. Lady on securing the debate, and on her are up to the job. extraordinary petition, which has 130,000 signatures. I That is especially important because there is powerful understand that 20% of people who have taken heroin evidence that the so-called war on drugs is making said that they got it for the first time in jail. If we cannot things worse. Far from being neutral, in many instances, control drugs in jail, how on earth are we supposed to the current model pushes users towards more harmful control them on our streets? products, behaviours and environments. Let me give Caroline Lucas: That is an extremely good point. I two examples of what I mean. In doing so, it is crucial thank the hon. Gentleman for his very helpful intervention, to distinguish between the suffering that is caused by which speaks for itself. drugs and that which is caused by drugs policy. If we are to design a better drugs policy that is based First, the vast majority of drug-related offending on evidence, we need to agree on the objectives of drugs happens not because people take drugs, but because of policy. For me, it is about protecting people, particularly drugs policy. Users are driven to burglary and theft to the young and vulnerable, as well as reducing crime, buy drugs at vastly inflated prices in an unregulated improving health, promoting security and development, market. There is enormous potential to reduce significantly providing good value for money and protecting human such crime and its impact on our communities under a rights. In setting out why that is important, I will say a different system. little more about the impact of the current drugs policy Secondly, on legal highs, according to research into and why I believe it adds to the case for a review; I will synthetic drugs by Demos and the UK Drug Policy talk a little about the growing consensus on rethinking Commission, 40 new substances emerged on to the the current approach to drugs policy; and I will say a market in 2010, compared with 24 in the previous year. little about Brighton and Hove, where my constituency By 2014, the figure had grown to 80 different synthetic is situated, where the approach of following the evidence drugs. Professor Les Iversen, the chairman of the Advisory as far as possible has delivered benefits. Council on the Misuse of Drugs, recently admitted that Before doing any of that, I would like to talk about drug control legislation is being forced to play “cat and Martha. Martha’s mother, Anne-Marie Cockburn, is in mouse”. Such substances are routinely banned under Parliament with us today. Like so many parents, she the Misuse of Drugs Act, but that simply spawns more had always wanted to protect her child. However, on substances that, in turn, are banned. The legal process 20 July 2013, she learned that that was not always cannot keep up. possible. On that day, Martha swallowed half a gram of The Government have published a report today that MDMA powder—ecstasy—and died. She was 15 years recommends that all novel synthetic psychoactive old. Today, 30 October, would have been Martha’s substances, or legal highs as they are more widely 17th birthday. She is not celebrating that birthday because known, be banned. I appreciate what they are trying to the Misuse of Drugs Act did not protect her. Making do with that policy, but I think that it is misguided. It MDMA illegal did not protect Martha. We owe it to her fails to appreciate that many legal highs are the products and to Anne-Marie, and to the many other people who of prohibition. Synthetic cannabis, for example, would have died drug-related deaths and their families and not exist if there were a legally regulated supply of real loved ones, to ensure that in future each and every one cannabis. Nor does the policy recognise our knowledge of us is offered the best possible protection by our drugs that prohibition—in other words, banning things—does laws. not stop people taking drugs, but simply increases the In her incredibly moving blog, “What Martha Did risks. Next”, Anne-Marie writes: “Had Martha known that what she was about to take was 91% Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): Does the hon. Lady pure, she would probably have taken a lot less, in fact I’d go as far agree that the only people the current policy really as to say that she might still be alive.” benefits are the drug lords and crime lords who sell this Anne-Marie argues that, under prohibition, it is impossible disgusting stuff to our children? If her policies were fully to educate people such as Martha, because there is realised, it would put those people out of business for no way to tell what drugs contain. Prohibition has not good. stopped risk-taking, but it has made those risks much more dangerous. Anne-Marie suggests that we are failing Caroline Lucas: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely to protect children such as Martha—that we are letting right that the current— them down—and that, alongside deterring young people Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The from taking drugs, we need a regulatory model that hon. Lady has been speaking for 15 minutes, so I am reduces the risk if drugs do get into the hands of young sure that we are nearing the end of the opening speech. people such as Martha. [Interruption.] I assure her that we are nearing the end I agree with Anne-Marie. Perhaps many people in the of the speech. Chamber will not. However, the fact that Martha is not celebrating her 17th birthday today is surely the first of Caroline Lucas: Of course I am getting near the end, many good reasons to carry out an impact assessment Mr Deputy Speaker. With that in mind, I shall simply of our drugs laws. We urgently need to know whether agree with the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mike Thornton). 439 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 440

The current policy is essentially putting users at greater supporting one of the most evil worldwide businesses or risk by driving the creation of yet more ways to stay one cartels. It always surprises me that people who object to step ahead of the law and by making research into the buying coffee in Starbucks and who refuse to support harms associated with new substances much more difficult. Amazon are quite happy to support cartels that cause untold misery to hundreds of thousands of people Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (Ind): Many around the world. Until such time as we have a change of the new synthetic drugs are sold in shops up and in drugs policy, I hope that people who support the down the country. If we do nothing to control the way drugs industry will reflect on the wider harms that they, in which the shops operate, such drugs will continue to personally, are causing. be available. Most of them are sold over the counter Talking of harm reduction, I welcome an approach and very few are sold illicitly in clubs. Where will the that says, “Let’s look at the evidence and be driven by hon. Lady’s reforms lead us in terms of banning such the evidence in what we do.” However, there is one piece shops from operating? of evidence on which we should reflect, which is that Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his drug use is falling in this country. According to surveys intervention. There are two ways to respond. The motion from the Office for National Statistics, the level of class simply says that we should look at the evidence. I am A drug use among young people—16 to 24-year-olds—has not saying where that will lead us. On the shops that sell fallen from 9.2% in 1996 to 4.8% in 2012-13. That is a so-called legal highs, we are not talking about an absence significant drop. of control. On the contrary, we are talking about regulation Caroline Lucas: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for the and control. My argument with the Government’s statement approach that she is taking. However, we need to be on legal highs is that it assumes that if we ban them and really clear about the evidence that drug use is going drive them underground, they will go away. They will down. The only real model that we can see over time is not. It is likely that they will be even more dangerous that there was a 32% increase in respect of some of the and that people will not know what they are taking. most serious drugs, heroin and morphine, last year. One proposal in Transform’s blueprint for a drugs Cannabis use has been coming down, but that has policy, which I warmly recommend, is a step-by-step happened irrespective of the policy context and of process by which we look at how we regulate and whether it has been class B, class C or anything else. control drugs. For example, it might be possible to get hold of them in a licensed pharmacy if people show a Dr Wollaston: I thank the hon. Lady for that point. certain level of ID. There are all sorts of ways in which Cannabis use among 16 to 24-year-olds is now at its we could regulate and control the drugs market. I repeat lowest level since records began, at around 13.5%. I that this is not about legalising drugs or having a think the view we sometimes hear that we are losing the free-for-all, but about bringing regulation and control war on drugs is factually incorrect, and there are many back into a market that is in the hands of gangs and markers. other people who do not care what is in the substances. They do not care about the purity of a substance; they Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I have great respect for the care only about their profit. I stress again that this is hon. Lady’s experience in this matter. Does she see a about regulation and control. connection between the falling use of illegal drugs that Although, sadly, we do not systematically collect and she is highlighting, and the rising use of legal highs? assess data for the purposes of ensuring that the Misuse Dr Wollaston: Legal highs are a rather separate issue. of Drugs Act is the best way to meet our drugs policy I agree we must consider that they may have unintended objects, there is a wealth of informative data out there. consequences, but I would not follow that as a direct The evidence that I have seen is enough to persuade me cause or link. I do not agree with that. of the need for drugs policy reform. However, I repeat that the motion simply asks for an independent review Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Will the hon. Lady of the evidence. I therefore hope that those who do not give way? agree with my interpretation of the evidence will still support the motion. Dr Wollaston: May I make a little progress and then I I thank the Minister for Crime Prevention again for will come back to the hon. Gentleman? his work on the Government’s comparators report. It I would like to focus on cannabis for a moment—that shows that there is a wealth of evidence from many is the issue I have most correspondence about—and on other countries that we could have a very different its harms. Cannabis is often presented as somehow a drugs policy in this country. In order to protect people harmless product, and if we compare it with alcohol in this country in the most effective way possible, it is and consider the numbers of deaths and injuries, alcohol incumbent on us as a Parliament to look at the comparators undoubtedly currently causes far greater harm in our report, learn from it and see how we can make our society. However, before we assume that it must therefore drugs policy more effective. be acceptable to legalise cannabis, I want to focus a little on its harms. In the short term, there is double the risk 12.17 pm of a car crash for people driving under the influence of Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): It is a pleasure to cannabis, and in the longer term, one in six young users follow the thoughtful contribution of the hon. Member will become dependent. It simply not true to say that for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). I welcome her cannabis is not a drug of dependence—it is. bringing this debate to the House. For me, this is about the impact of cannabis on young I will speak about a harm-reduction approach to users and teenagers, because they will double their risk drugs policy. I do not hold a moralistic view on the of a psychotic illness. In my career I have met many taking of drugs, other than my objection to people families and young people whose lives have been completely 441 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 442

[Dr Wollaston] on its effects on young people, so that we do not head down a route that could lead to greater harm to young devastated as a result of psychosis—I come to this people as a result of policy changes. debate from that viewpoint and my real concern about what psychosis does to people, because many of them 12.25 pm did not recover. That is particularly important for those Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I was not planning who have a family history of psychotic illness. For to speak in this debate, because I felt that most of what example, if someone has a first degree relative with a I have to say would be covered by the hon. Members for history of schizophrenia and they start using cannabis Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and for Cambridge as a teenager, they will double their risk of a psychotic (Dr Huppert), and my hon. Friend the Member for illness from 10% to 20%—a significant increase. Newport West (Paul Flynn). However, I want to emphasise Dr Huppert: It is always interesting to listen to the a couple of important points, which I hope will help the hon. Lady, and I do not think anybody is trying to make House to understand the issue. the case that drugs, legal or illegal, are harmless. Does The Home Affairs Committee has looked carefully at she accept, however, that because we make it an illegal this issue and took a year producing a report, including system, we cannot do what has been done in California, a visit to Portugal. I was not able to go, but other for example, where medicinal marijuana has allowed colleagues, including the hon. Members for Hertsmere the breeding of strains of marijuana that are less psycho- (Mr Clappison) and for Cambridge, as well as the then harmful? hon. Member for Rochester and Strood, went to Portugal and provided a good outline of what is happening there. Dr Wollaston: That is why I want to see the longer The hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), Chair term results from Colorado and Washington state, and of the Health Committee, is right: we need to make whether as a result of that system the harm to young people comparisons and see what works elsewhere. That was from cannabis is reduced. Personally, I think it is too early reflected in the excellent speech by the hon. Member for to say what the effects will be, but I will be following the Brighton, Pavilion, who has campaigned long and hard results closely. If I see clear evidence of harm reduction, on this issue. I will completely change my approach to this issue. The main conclusion of the Committee’s report in People often write to me and say, “Well look at 2012 was to urge the Government to initiate a royal Portugal where there has been a reduction in drug use”, commission, which we said could be done in a short period but the Czech Republic, which has the same approach of time. We were not in favour of a royal commission in not prosecuting people for personal use, has one of that would last an age, and we felt that it could be the highest levels of cannabis use across Europe. We completed to a timetable. Had that been accepted in must be careful about how selectively we quote from the 2012, we would have had the results by now; sadly, the evidence. idea was not taken up by the Government. I do not think a royal commission will be set up in the next six Mike Thornton: I have great respect for the hon. months, but I hope that future Governments will see it Lady’s skill and knowledge, which is probably greater as a way of ensuring that all voices on drugs policy are than mine. In Portugal they take a great deal of care to heard. There are many voices out there, as we see from look after the people brought to their attention who the number of right hon. and hon. Members who wish have problems with drugs, and they treat them properly, to take part in the debate, many of whom have great which works. Perhaps in the Czech Republic they do expertise on this matter. Let us hear all those voices, not use the same approach. It could be that that is the take the evidence, and come to a conclusion. A Select case. Committee can only do so much—all Select Committees try their best to cover a full agenda—and a royal Dr Wollaston: There is certainly a strong case for a commission would enable us to do much more. much better medical approach to drug use—certainly for hard drug use. My point is about relative uses. People Mr Mike Hancock: Will the right hon. Gentleman often write to me and say that we would cut cannabis draw the attention of his Committee very rapidly to the use if we took a different approach to decriminalisation. issue raised by the hon. Member for Richmond Park As I say, I am not dogmatic about the issue, and I would (Zac Goldsmith)—I also raised it in the Chamber 30 years like to see the longer term outcomes from legalisation in ago—about people going into prison and coming out as Washington state and Colorado. heroin addicts? There needs to be a review of the way that prisons combat drugs, and I hope the Home Affairs Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): Committee will take up the issue rapidly. Will my hon. Friend give way? Keith Vaz: The first point I was going to make about Dr Wollaston: May I finish a few points about the drugs policy after calling for a royal commission was medical aspects of this issue? There is also the issue of about prisons. The issue was raised by the hon. Member educational achievement for long-term, regular cannabis for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), and brilliantly users in adolescence, because we know there is a reduction and eloquently exposed in the book by the hon. Member in their school performance, and it is more likely that for Hexham (Guy Opperman), who is sitting behind the they will end up with cognitive impairment later on. Minister. He has great knowledge and expertise from Whatever we do, we must be mindful of the effect of his years at the criminal Bar, and he mentioned many our policies on young people. The harms are greatest different aspects of the criminal justice system. There is for young people who start using cannabis heavily at an a whole chapter on drugs in prison, and I commend the early age. I hope the Minister will assure the House that book to Members of the House. He may even have when we review drugs policy he will particularly focus copies of it to sell to Members after the debate. 443 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 444

The Committee called for mandatory testing of prisoners enters the financial system, some through offshore areas on entry and exit, and we wanted to ensure that on exit, such as Gibraltar and other areas of that kind. We need ex-prisoners are met at the gates and given the treatment to ensure that authorities co-operate. I am not singling they deserve, so that they do not reoffend and go back Gibraltar out because you are in the Chair, Mr Deputy to prison. We found, as the hon. Member for Richmond Speaker. Park said, that a quarter of prisoners first discover the taste of drugs while in prison. That is a shocking Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Just for correctness, I am statistic and the number may even have gone up. Drugs not the chair of the Gibraltar group, but I was in the are being used in prison and it is not acceptable. The past. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman needs to take prison authorities need to do much more, but we need to this up with the new chair. rehabilitate people, so that they do not reoffend as soon as they come out. A former Minister with responsibility Keith Vaz: There is no criticism of you, Mr Deputy for prisons is in the Chamber. He will have more knowledge Speaker, of the new chair of the all-party parliamentary of that, but I hope we get commitments from the group on Gibraltar or of anyone in Gibraltar, but we Government and the Minister that more will be done. have discovered that some areas of the world are being used to launder money from drugs. Our financial authorities Ian Swales: Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure are not strong enough to deal with the way in which that, in any work his Committee does on drugs in money goes through the system. That is why the Committee prison, we do not narrowly define drugs? Legal and believes that bankers at the very senior level should be illegal drugs have been mentioned in the debate. I know held criminally responsible if they know or are aware of from a visit to my local prison that the main drug laundering, or if they did not take action to prevent it. misuse is of prescription drugs. Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Keith Vaz: That was going to be my second point. I The right hon. Gentleman is right to consider asset have a feeling that Liberal Democrat Members have a recovery to deal with money laundering and criminal copy of my speech. actions. He will be aware that we have an opportunity to consider that under the Serious Crime Bill. Does he Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): That is share my concern about the drafting of the asset recovery impossible. You were not going to speak. clauses? Will his Committee consider that before we debate the Bill? Does he agree that the Bill needs much Keith Vaz: Exactly. The Liberal Democrats have an more to take on board lessons from places such as Italy? incredible mind. They are able to predict exactly what hon. Members are going to say. Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I Correctly, the hon. Gentleman referred to prescription am not sure that the Committee has time to consider drugs, which had not been mentioned. The Committee that before Christmas, but I will do so with him. Let us was extremely concerned by the increase in the use of sit down and see whether we can get an amendment prescription drugs. Indeed, when the Committee was in together. I am happy to support him to make the Bill Miami, as hon. Members would expect it to be, en route tougher, because it needs to be. to Colombia to look at where 70% of the cocaine in our I commend the proposers of the motion.. This is a country comes from—we have done our homework—we very important debate, and we do not debate UK drugs heard of the first case of an American doctor being policy often enough. We need to ensure that we have prosecuted for prescribing drugs. As we know, drugs more time to debate this serious and important subject. become currency in prisons and outside. That is why there is a responsibility on the medical profession to Several hon. Members rose— ensure that doctors prescribe effectively and understand what is happening to prescription drugs if certain patients Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Can I suggest everybody keep coming in and asking for them. It is important to works on keeping their speeches to around the 10-minute ensure that we consider the availability of those drugs, mark? which are perfectly legal. I have not seen the Government statement on 12.35 pm psychoactive substances so I cannot comment on it—I believe it was a written statement, and they never send Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): It is the Committee advance copies. I just remind the House a great privilege to take part in the debate. I congratulate that the Committee was clear that the onus ought to be the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). on the retailers who sell psychoactive substances. I did I am not sure whether it will cause her or me more not realise that the Government were calling for a embarrassment among our supporters that we find complete ban, but where psychoactive substances are ourselves sharing company and the same side of the sold, we should prosecute retailers for selling them. argument. There is no point waiting for someone to die. It is Some years ago, when the debate about drugs erupted, essential we do something at the beginning by getting as it does from time to time, the media went round more those who sell the drugs in the first place. or less every Front Bencher and asked whether they had My final point is on money laundering and the ever smoked pot. I was one of the very few who never weakness of successive Governments’ regimes to deal had, and I have no intention ever of doing so. That gave with criminality. As we have heard, the drugs trade is me a clear enough head to look at this issue on the basis the second most profitable illegal activity in the world. of evidence, which is what the hon. Lady’s motion urges It is worth some $380 billion a year, most of which us to do. 445 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 446

[Mr Peter Lilley] I say these things not as someone who is soft on drugs and believes there is nothing is wrong with taking drugs. I focused on the important distinction between soft I believe that even if there were no health disadvantages and hard drugs, and on whether cannabis should be from using drugs, there is a moral case against using treated differently from hard drugs. I concluded that it them. However, just as I want to decriminalise and should be, and that we should move to the legalisation legalise, I do not want to de-moralise drugs. Ultimately, of cannabis. We could have a small number of legal wherever possible moral choices should be left to individuals. outlets while banning the active marketing and promotion In so far as we are going to be no worse off—the Dutch of cannabis, its sale to minors and its consumption in experience shows not a higher number of users, but fewer public places. people pushed into harder and worse drugs—let us look I concluded that a move to legalisation would have a at the evidence closely, and be willing to accept that number of advantages. First, about 80% of the effort in although drug use may be wrong it does not automatically the so-called war on drugs goes on trying to prohibit have to be criminal. cannabis. Much less effort and resources go into the Lots of things are wrong. Adultery is wrong, but we prohibition of hard drugs, which cause the greatest do not make it a criminal offence. Lots of other things harm and the greatest danger. Therefore, if we could are against the moral law in which I believe, but we do not provide some legal outlets for cannabis, we would be make them a criminal offence. Let us look at drugs without able to focus more of the effort on the drugs that do the going to the opposite extreme of saying that any use of greatest harm. drugs is desirable and entirely value-free. Let us look at Secondly, I concluded that the effort of trying to the evidence and see whether the policies we have been prohibit cannabis was ineffective. Until recently, we had pursuing in this country have been ineffectual, have a higher prevalence and usage of cannabis in this country focused the effort where it is least needed and not where than in Holland, where there are legal outlets. Prohibition it is most needed, have undermined respect for the law, was therefore ineffective. and have driven soft drugs users into the arms of hard drugs pushers. I hope the House will support the motion. Thirdly, I concluded that we were undermining respect for the law by having a law that was widely disregarded, and one that was harder to justify in a country which, 12. 42 pm after all, legalises the sale of alcohol, which can do at least as much damage as cannabis, and legalises the sale Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to of nicotine and cigarettes, which can have more lethal follow the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden consequences in the long term. (Mr Lilley). We are both old lags in this debate and were One key argument often used by those who advocate both mentioned in the drugs report of 2002. keeping cannabis on a par with hard drugs, and I am more optimistic than I have been during the past criminalising and prohibiting its sale in this country, is 27 years in which I have made 28 speeches on this that it is supposedly a gateway drug, meaning that it matter in this House. At one time we had an annual leads people ineluctably to sample cocaine, and then debate, which was an amazing ritual. The Government, tempts them to go on to heroin. They say that, therefore, whoever they were, said how wonderfully and successfully its sale should be prohibited. I believe that the reverse is things were going, and the Opposition would say, “Yes, true: because the sale of cannabis is illegal, we drive soft we agree.” One moment I prize was when, about half drugs users into the arms of hard drugs pushers. They way through, both Front-Bench speakers had to leave can obtain cannabis only from criminal gangs, who will the Chamber for a fix—they were both chain smokers. want them to upgrade to drugs that are more addictive They saw nothing wrong in denouncing young people and more profitable. and then going off to any of the 16 bars in this place and having a whisky and a cigarette. They would have a Dr Wollaston: Does my right hon. Friend agree that couple of paracetamol in their pockets for the headaches the real gateway is tobacco use? Most people smoke they were going to have the next morning. They could cannabis with tobacco, and that poses the greatest risk not see any contradiction between that and laying down of long-term harm. laws for young people. The hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) talked Mr Lilley: I will, for the sake of argument, agree with about the myth that the use of drugs has gone down my hon. Friend, but I think that is a rather different because of Government action. There is absolutely no argument from the one I am addressing. correlation. Let us look at the past 43 years. When The most important single reason for legalising the the Drugs Misuse Act 1971 was passed with the support sale of cannabis is to break the link between the sale of of all parties—always a worrying thing—there were fewer hard drugs and the sale of soft drugs. There are only than 1,000 heroin and cocaine addicts in the whole two coherent and rational policies as far as soft drugs country. The last figure I saw was 320,000. There has are concerned. The Swedish approach is one of toughly been a steady increase over the years. The reason there has enforced prohibition. I looked briefly at the report and now been a decline in cannabis use and other activities thought it was a bit weak on analysis of the Swedish by young people is that they have a new addiction. They situation, but I will look at it more deeply. The other is a have an almost universal addiction to their Tablets and version of the Dutch approach, which is now the approach iPhones—that is where their attention is going. It is all of a number of countries, where legal outlets are available. to do with fashion. Drug taking might be cool one year The worst option is falling between two stools and and naff the following year. It all depends on that. decriminalising use while leaving the supply in the hands The hon. Lady made a point about Portugal, which is of drug gangs. That leaves us open to driving soft drugs a great success story. It changed its policy in 2001. users into the arms of hard drugs pushers. Within a very short time the number of deaths went 447 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 448 down by 50%,and it does not have the cost of prosecutions nabilone or TAC are available, but they contain only a and so on. It has been a continuing success. The change small number of ingredients from the hundreds in any in the Czech Republic is relatively recent and we have natural substance. yet to see the results, but there are encouraging signs. I have to apologise to the Minister. I was so ungracious Mike Thornton: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that as to believe that he was going to follow the path of all it is very strange that a doctor can prescribe heroin in the other Ministers with responsibility for drugs, including the form of diamorphine, a controlled and very dangerous some very distinguished ones. I remember when the drug, but not cannabis? beloved Mo Mowlam was in charge of drugs. Her Paul Flynn: Indeed, and I would like to get on to that. letters would comprise the civil service reply and a little We have just been involved in a war, which I mentioned note on the top, written by her, saying, “See you in the at business questions. We went into Helmand province Strangers Bar to tell you what I really think.” [Laughter.] five years after we went into Afghanistan. We had lost When the current Minister came before the Home Affairs only two soldiers by that time, but our main purpose in Committee, I asked him whether he had had the compulsory going in—hon. Members should read the speeches from lobotomy to become a Minister with responsibility for 2006; I have just put them on the website—was all about drugs in exchange for his red box. It was not true! The stopping heroin being grown and ending the drug crop. Minister stuck to his views, and here we have the first In 2006, 90% of our heroin came from Afghanistan; yet ever intelligent document on drugs from Government here we are, years later, and 90% of our heroin still in 43 years—the only one that is evidence-based. We comes from Afghanistan. There is a difference, however,: have had evidence-free, prejudice-rich policies for years now it is cheaper because there is more of it. The efforts from politicians who were cowardly. They would not to control it were utterly futile, yet there is a shortage of take on the tabloids. Some years ago, the Liberal Democrats morphine throughout the world—another issue that we decided that they were going to pursue the policy that have not addressed. we are encouraging today and they were denounced by The Sun as going to pot. I come back to the point that we should look at the chemistry. Nobody knows what the effect of the various There is cowardice because of prejudice, but we know ingredients of natural cannabis is. It might well be that that public opinion is way ahead of us. The public know ingredient No. 36 neutralises ingredient No. 428. We do the stupidity and impotence of our drugs policy. I not know, and by stopping people having a natural drug regularly ask how many prisons in Britain are drug free. that has proved to be beneficial, we are imposing torment I always get the answer that there are none. If we cannot on many who have serious problems, such as multiple keep hard drugs out of prisons, how on earth can we sclerosis and other diseases that we know can be cured. keep them out of schools, clubs or anywhere else? It is a It is prejudice that has driven our policies for all these pretence. years. I am heartened today by the Minister, by his courage and by the report, which is the only report—I Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) repeat: we have waited 43 years for this—that is based (Lab): Women go into prisons like Holloway drug-free on the truth and the evidence. Marvellous things are and come out with a drug habit, such are the difficulties happening in other countries throughout the world, of keeping drugs out of prison. and there is a recognition that prohibition has been a curse. Paul Flynn: There is a splendid book called “Invisible Women” about Holloway prison, which I commend to Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): In the litany of good everyone. It tells the terrible story of what is going on signs that the hon. Gentleman is seeing, I am quite there. certain that he will have read the article by Sir William Patey, who was our ambassador in Afghanistan between Another point about prison is that one medicine that 2010 and 2012. He says: was given to young women who had been badly treated and were mutilating themselves was largactil. There was “For the sake of both Afghans and British citizens, senior politicians must take responsibility for the failings of global a name for them in prison: they called them muppets. prohibition, and take control of the drug trade through legal This was a drug for those who had serious mental regulation.” health problems. The whole sorry story of drugs in When someone like him says that, it is another reason prison is one of abuse by many medicinal drugs. A blind to sit up and take notice. eye was turned to cannabis use because it kept a lid on things. If prisoners were on alcohol they were aggressive, Paul Flynn: That is absolutely right. We are following but if they were on cannabis they would give everyone a what happened with the prohibition of alcohol in America, hug. That is how the prisons liked it. The prison policies where the deaths came from the use of distilled spirit. pursued by all parties are completely hypocritical and The content could not be controlled, and it was poisonous. they illustrate the futility of prohibition. We now have people taking drugs—often in the most I received a call before I came to the House from concentrated form and in the most dangerous way—that someone talking about the use of medicinal cannabis, are produced by people who are irresponsible. I believe which I have supported for a very long time. It is not that if we did not have prohibition, people would be that I want to use it. I have never used any illegal drug using heroin beer and other things by now. In Amsterdam, and I have no plans to use cannabis. The point is the they take their cannabis without smoking, because the irrationality of the Government’s stand. Cannabis in its danger—as with tobacco, where it is not the nicotine—is natural form is one of the oldest drugs in the world. It in smoking the substance. The best way would be if we has been used on all continents for 5,000 years. Now, relaxed about this and if people could have their drugs because we are nervous and it is an illegal drug, we of choice—all dangerous and to be avoided if at all allow people to have only little bits of cannabis. Dronabinol, possible, but we cannot stop people seeking relaxation 449 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 450

[Paul Flynn] Ms Abbott: Does the hon. Gentleman think that politicians might just be behind public opinion on this and comfort from drugs; that will go on. The way to do question? A major tabloid paper reports today that it it is to end prohibition and for a courageous Government has polled its readers, who believe there should be a to reform our laws. review of the legislation. Dr Huppert: The hon. Lady is absolutely right, as I 12.53 pm said in an intervention. Politicians are behind, at least in Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): It is a great what they are prepared to say. Another survey two years pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Newport West ago—I cannot remember which paper ran it—showed (Paul Flynn), who was an advocate for this cause well that 77% of MPs thought we should have reform, as before it was fashionable. It is good to see him in his long as they knew they would not be named in the place still arguing for it. I also echo his praise for the survey and asked to introduce it. Politicians should fantastic work that my right hon. Friend the Minister have the courage of their convictions, and the public’s has done, which means that we have now heard praise convictions, and take action. for his work from all parties present in the Chamber, I shall pick up the point made by the hon. Member even though some representative parties that are not for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), who chairs the Health here have been rather more critical of the stance he has Committee. We have indeed seen a reduction in the taken. It is also good to hear a degree of unanimity in raw numbers—she is absolutely right—but I think that the comments expressed today. There are some differences, is largely because people are taking new psychoactive but they are in the nuances. There is not a principled substances. We are seeing a huge increase in people difference; all the speeches have broadly called for change taking legal alternatives, rather than illegal substances. to our policies. The perversity of that is that we have pushed people to My belief is that the so-called war on drugs has take substances whose safety we know less about. We simply not worked. What it has done is cause more know less about the harms and we are probably increasing harms than it has alleviated. That has been clear for the risk to those people very substantially. We should quite a long time, and I and my party have long called also look at the system. Smoking tobacco is more for reform. It is not about being hard on drugs or soft harmful than chewing khat, but why would we make the on drugs; it is about being smart on drugs and doing the dangerous one legal and the not-so-dangerous one illegal? right thing. Of course drugs are harmful. Whether they It seems like a very strange thing to do. are legal or illegal, and whether they are prescribed or As a member of the Home Affairs Committee, I was not prescribed, tobacco, alcohol, cannabis, cocaine and delighted that the Chair, the right hon. Member for heroin are all harmful things. They all cause harms—to Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who is sadly not in his place, people who take them, to other people and to society. agreed when I kept insisting that we should have a look The model we have had for so long in this country and at this issue. We undertook a detailed study and we in many parts of the world has been based on the idea heard from experts around the world. We concluded, on that when it comes to some substances—not tobacco a cross-party basis, a key objective: and alcohol, but the other ones, for historical reasons—our “The principal aim of Government drugs policy should be first aim should be to stop people taking them. The idea is to and foremost to minimise the damage caused to the victims of reduce the number of users, rather than looking at the drug-related crime, drug users and others.” harms the substances cause. That is the wrong goal and That is a call to completely rethink how we do drugs it has not worked. policy: to focus on reducing the harm, not on how many Drug use is still high, with millions of people regularly people do things that we badge as illegal. breaking the law, which is not an effective disincentive. The Home Secretary of course rejected the report’s Hon. Members can talk to many police officers about findings and just carried on with business as usual, but this, but frankly it makes the law look silly when 4 million we had one key victory. We secured agreement for an people a year are committing a criminal offence, of international comparator study, which has been worked whom 100,000—randomly selected, but with somewhat on by my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane more from poorer communities and black and minority (Mr Browne) and, now, my right hon. Friend the Minister ethnic groups—get arrested, with a few unlucky people, for Crime Prevention. That is what has come out today, again disproportionately poorer people and those from and although there is a serious gap where some of the black and minority ethnic groups, being thrown in jail. conclusions ought to be—one feels that one is being led It does not work. towards something, only to find a missing paragraph saying what one should do—it is very clear. The fundamental Stephen Phillips: I may come to this if I am lucky point is that sounding tough does not matter. The rhetoric enough to catch your eye in due course, Mr Deputy does not make any difference; it is about outcomes. The Speaker, and I do not think anyone else has made this study says: point, but does it not also cause a lack of respect for the criminal law when every year 4 million people regularly “Looking across different countries, there is no apparent correlation between the ‘toughness’ of a country’s approach and the prevalence break what is regarded as the criminal law for something of…drug use.” that they do not think is a criminal offence? That is key. If being tough actually reduced drug use Dr Huppert: Absolutely. If we asked people what sort around the world, we would have to look again, but it of sentence it should be possible to get for having a simply does not work. It creates extra harms, so the spliff, they would not think that many years in jail was argument falls down. proportionate. I know that that does not always happen, What does work? There have been lots of academic but the maximum sentence in this instance brings the studies. The thing that most reduces drug use is having a law into disrepute. more equal society. Solving that may be beyond the 451 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 452 scope of this debate, and certainly beyond my scope in break their addiction. My party has called for exactly the time I have left, but that is what will work—not that, continuing to spearhead those calls. At our party tough laws, but a more equal society. Yet we continue conference in October this year, we had a new crime with the tough approach. Every year we spend millions policy paper, which picked up on this issue. It called for of pounds jailing something like 1,000 people for no a transfer of powers from the Home Office to the offence other than possession. We are not talking about Department of Health, saying that drug addiction is a people who have burgled; we are talking about simple health problem and should be seen as such. We should possession offences. They are not dealers; they are not make sure that people are not sent to prison for personal doing worse things. Jailing them does not help them to possession; we should move towards decriminalisation. deal with their addiction; if anything, it makes things We propose having a royal commission to take an worse for them and takes money that we could spend overall view of what we do and to keep an eye on what helping them instead of punishing them. is happening with cannabis in the US and Uruguay. I It is therefore really good progress that we now see agree with the hon. Member for Totnes that it is too acceptance from the Government that a tough drugs early to be certain about the outcomes; we need to keep policy does not reduce usage. Contrary to what the an eye open. Home Secretary said to the Home Affairs Committee, the Government have finally accepted that in Portugal Stephen Phillips: The hon. Gentleman mentions the decriminalisation and a focus on treatment have not led US, and earlier in his very powerful speech he mentioned to more drug use. the difficulty some young people have with being We have the Minister on board, but we need to get criminalised over the possession of drugs. Does he the Home Secretary to agree to go ahead. We spend vast regard it as an oddity, as I do, that a person could be amounts of money on a drugs policy. Estimates vary denied a visa to go to the United States, in some parts of between £3 billion and £10 billion a year, depending on which marijuana can be bought and smoked quite which costs are included. Times are tight, so we should legally, just because they have a criminal conviction in spend that money effectively. We should use police this country for having used cannabis? resources effectively, too. If police are kept busy dealing with simple possession offences, that is time and effort Dr Huppert: The hon. and learned Gentleman is that they cannot use to settle violent or acquisitive crime, absolutely right; I agree completely with his point. We or indeed the gang crime that our war on drugs is fuelling. are blighting people’s lives for no good reason, and That is why so many police officers have spoken out. many do not think it is proportionate. The chief constable of Durham, Mike Barton, has argued It is not just my party that has pushed for this change for the decriminalisation of class A drugs, highlighting for a long time. Many other Members have called for the fact that prohibition has put billions of pounds into reform, like the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion the hands of the criminals he is supposed to be fighting. (Caroline Lucas). We have heard the clear view of The Many others say the same, including Chief Constable Sun in a very strong editorial just this morning, stressing Tom Lloyd, my own former chief constable: that we cannot continue with the status quo. The right “Drug dealers all over the world are laughing at law enforcement…I hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) want the end of prohibition and the start of control and regulation said when he was Secretary of State: so we don’t have dealers on the street.” “We have been engaged in a war against drugs for 30 years. He has also highlighted the harm done to young people, We’re plainly losing it. We have not achieved very much progress.” because for a huge proportion of them, their first The former head of MI5 Eliza Manningham-Buller contact with the law comes from being stopped and called for us to acknowledge the truth that searched for drugs offences. When someone is convicted, “much…of the vast expenditure on the so-called ‘War on Drugs’ according to Tom Lloyd: has been fruitless.” “It seems hypocritical to saddle a young person with a criminal The noble Lord Lawson, with whom I disagree on many conviction that could blight their lives”. things, said: Such people often have problems getting jobs and travelling “I have no doubt that the present policy is a disaster.” in the future. This causes huge problems. Because of our criminalised system, we have no control over what Then there is the Prime Minister. When he was a drugs are cut with—and these cutting agents are often member of the Home Affairs Select Committee in 2002, worse than the drugs themselves. along with the hon. Member for Newport West, he voted to recommend We also have huge problems with discrimination. For black and minority ethnic groups, the use of harder “that the Government initiates a discussion within the Commission drugs is lower, but arrests are higher and they are twice on Narcotic Drugs of alternative ways—including the possibility as likely to proceed to court than white people. That is of legalisation and regulation—to tackle the global drugs dilemma”. not right; we should not be doing that. With more than The Prime Minister used to be a reformer. When he ran half of stop and searches being for possession, even the for the Tory leadership, he said: Home Secretary has acknowledged the problems that “Politicians attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator can result from that. by posturing with tough policies and calling for crackdown after We need a new system, focusing on treatment, education crackdown. Drugs policy has been failing for decades.” and rehabilitation and dealing with the harms caused All those voices are on side; we need to bring the Prime by drugs. How we pay for that is a challenge. The Minister back. Portugal has been a huge success. When answer is to take money from the criminal justice system. we visited, we found that the new drugs policy was We need to divert the money from spending on policing supported across the parties, and by the police as it and prison towards spending on helping people to helped them to deal with crime. 453 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 454

[Dr Huppert] As a member of the all-party group, I used to visit with Jim various parts of the NHS to talk to doctors. Let me make two last points before concluding. In We also spoke to the British Medical Association. There 2016, the UN General Assembly will hold a special was a worry about their professionalism, as I remember session on drugs in 2016, providing a key chance to one doctor saying, “If I refuse to give another prescription, change the global system in respect of drugs policy. I know full well that patient will go to another doctor This is key, and there are calls from around the world. and get the same prescription.” There is a great hole in Britain is leading the way in the calls for reform, but the system. What the real cost is, I do not know. It must unfortunately not in an official capacity—it is the all-party run to millions, if not billions, just for prescribing those parliamentary group on drugs policy reform that is drugs. Clearly, the profits for various companies are seeking to co-ordinate Ministers around the world. The quite high. Government should support this change. The human cost is different again, when we think I echo the calls of my right hon. Friend the Minister about the problems people face through no fault of for Crime Prevention to look again at marijuana as a their own. Who better to quote than the Prime Minister medicine. The evidence is that it can be a very effective himself on this? Jim put a question to him in October medical remedy, dealing with many diseases, including last year, in response to which the Prime Minister said MS and glaucoma, and easing the side-effects of that chemotherapy and HIV/AIDS treatment. This can help “these people are not drug addicts but they have become hooked improve people’s lives, so clearly we should look at it as on repeat prescriptions of tranquillisers.”—[Official Report, 23 October a medical intervention. This country has followed the 2013; Vol. 569, c. 296.] wrong approach for 40 years. It has not worked, and it is time to change. They went to their doctors in all good faith. They did not read the small print about possible side-effects and nobody spelt them out. Now we are left with the figure 1.5 pm of 1.5 million people who cannot get off these drugs, Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I and there seems to be no place in the system for them to shall take a somewhat different tack from other Members, go. The only place they are sent is to a drug rehabilitation but first I congratulate the hon. Members for Brighton, centre, but the majority of the people sent there have Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) usually been on illegal drugs. I am not talking about a and others on their contributions to the debate. I want class difference, but there is a psychological difference to pick up on what was said by the Chair of the Home between one and the other. What generally happens is Affairs Select Committee about legalised prescription that people who have suddenly realised that they are drugs and how they relate to drug-related harms and addicted to a substance that they took as a medicine their costs to society. I would argue that the cost of stop going such centres. One clinic that Jim and the prescription drugs is massive, as are the related harms. all-party group supported, and which we hope will I would like to pay tribute to the late Jim Dobbin, continue, is a voluntary clinic in Oldham, which followed with whom I worked closely on the all-party group on the recommendations in a manual produced by Professor involuntary tranquilliser addiction. Jim set it up and Heather Ashton about ways of getting people off benzo worked on it year in, year out, because of his concerns, drugs and curing the addiction that they cause, but that perhaps arising from his background, and because of is just one clinic. There was another in Liverpool, but its the people he came into contact with. I pay particular grant has gone. tribute to Mick Behan, who worked out of his office. My constituent John Perrott has—I hope—got himself He had gone through involuntary tranquilliser addiction off prescription drugs by means of that system. He sent and worked hard with Jim to bring this to the notice of a number of freedom of information requests around Government after Government. the country asking how many people had been taken off Ironically, I was the Conservative candidate in Heywood such drugs. As I said earlier, it has been estimated that and Middleton in 1990 when the Conservative Government 1.5 million people are addicted to them. A total of were in power. Like all good candidates, I could not attack 180 people all over the country responded by saying the Government, but I could attack the local Rochdale that they had undergone some kind of rehabilitation to council, and who was a senior member of Rochdale get them off prescription drugs. council in 1990? Jim Dobbin. I then came to this place. As I have said, I do not know the total financial cost My constituent John Perrott, who is the secretary of the involved, but the mental and physical costs are clear to all-party group, contacted Jim and got involved in work anyone who meets people who have ended up taking with him over the last four years, trying to bring to the prescription drugs. Members can imagine the mental notice not just of this House but of the system, the stress that they experience. They took those drugs because situation with tranquillisers and prescriptions. a doctor had told them that they would be fine. Therein The motion talks about costs. It is estimated that may lie one of the problems that have been identified by 1.5 million people have a long-term addiction to Jim and others. The Earl of Sandwich has tried to take tranquillisers in this country. In 2012, 67.3 million up the issue with the British Medical Association. Some prescriptions for tranquillisers were issued; in 2013, it doctors have said that, anecdotally, there is indeed an went up to 70.2 million. Those are legal drugs that are issue. However, they tend to feel that their professional being issued. There is a lot of evidence, particularly judgment is being challenged, even if what is involved is relating to the benzodiazepines—benzos—and the Z drugs, an historical judgment. They worry about, for instance, to demonstrate people’s addiction. As early as 1988, possible litigation—and we are, of course, familiar with apparently, GPs were instructed that people should not the American scene. But all that these people are crying be on these drugs for longer than four weeks. Yet out for is some recognition within the national health 1.5 million people are addicted to them. service. 455 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 456

We have had meetings with health Minister after hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), health Minister, and they have all said “It is fine—it is in when I was the criminal justice Minister responsible for the system.”However, drug companies are making millions the prison and probation services. The right hon. from prescription drugs. Doctors say, “What can I do? Gentleman, having at one time been the Minister responsible If I tell people that there is a different system which for drugs policy in the Home Office, is yet another does not involve my giving them tablets, they will not convert to the more enlightened and intelligent policy believe me”—and, as I said earlier, those people can that is proposed in the motion and implicitly recommended easily go to another doctor and get the drugs from him. in the study report that the Government have just I understand that some of them can be obtained through published. the internet in any case. That is a very different scenario On that occasion, the right hon. Gentleman and I, as from the one that has featured in the debate so far, Minister, cooked up a plan for him to ask me a question although it is clearly relevant to the overall issue of drug so that we could begin to arrive at some estimate of the misuse. actual cost of our drugs policy to the criminal justice Members have mentioned drugs in prisons. I have system. However, even as the Minister answering the tried to obtain factual information from prisons, but question, I found it impossible to beat out of the have been given only anecdotal evidence. Prison doctors Department information that would have enabled me to have told me that many prisoners know that the way in give a proper answer to the right hon. Gentleman, and which to get hold of drugs is to say, “I am depressed”—and eventually, having tried to do so several times, I gave up. why would someone who has been sentenced to This is the central point that I want to make. Given imprisonment not be depressed? The prisoner need only the number of global leaders who have had responsibility act out the symptoms, and the drugs will then be for policy in this area—Kofi Annan, the former Presidents prescribed, entirely legally. The anecdotal evidence that of Brazil, Switzerland, Colombia, Portugal, Mexico I have received from the prisons themselves is “It keeps and Chile, George Papandreou; the list goes on and on, them quiet.”Other Members have mentioned that already. and includes, of course, the right hon. Member for Coventry North East—we ought to start drawing some Stephen Phillips: I wonder whether my hon. Friend conclusions. Members who know that they will not get has spoken to prison governors, as I have. They have the political kicking that our current Administration told me, as I am sure they have told him, that if plainly feel they will get if they begin to open up an prescription drugs, particularly tranquillisers, are taken intelligent policy discussion of this issue should now out of prisons and no longer prescribed for prisoners— collectively begin to push harder and harder. I share the although they are not needed for the majority of optimism of the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul prisoners—every custodial facility in the country will be Flynn), who for many decades has occasionally been a on fire the following day. lone and vilified voice. His courage is an object lesson to us all. Eric Ollerenshaw: My hon. and learned Friend has made the point far better than I could. We are told that when we talk to people in the system, but there is no Ms Abbott: The hon. Gentleman referred to the recognition of it. I find it amazing that even Members international context. Does he agree that it is significant of Parliament cannot acquire information about the that at least one American state—Colorado—has scale of prescriptions inside prisons, but, for some decriminalised marijuana? Is that not a sign that the reason, that is not possible. tide is turning in regard to the efficacy of the war on drugs? There is a whole series of questions to be asked. I congratulate the Members who initiated the debate, and I appreciate the points they have raised about illegal Crispin Blunt: I agree with the hon. Lady. There are drugs. As an ex-teacher, I have seen the damage that examples all over the world of much more enlightened drugs cause, on the streets and elsewhere. However, the policies on drugs. Portugal and the Czech Republic issue of illegal drugs is part of a much wider issue have already been cited, and a number of American relating to drugs in 21st-century society. states have changed their policies on cannabis. Let me end by paying another tribute to Jim Dobbin. This is what I find modestly depressing. A bright He stood firm on this issue, and he worked so hard on young new Member of Parliament is elected in 2001, it. I last met Jim on, I think, the Thursday before the and is appointed to the Home Affairs Committee. He is weekend when he died. He had had a meeting with the then party to a report which invites another really good Chairmen of the Health and Home Affairs Committees, report from the Home Affairs Committee, whose members, during which he had been trying once again to find out as Members of Parliament, sit down and consider the more about an issue that affects all our constituents. issues properly. He is then party to a recommendation in 2002. He is holding to that position even in 2005, when he is competing for the Conservative party leadership. 1.14 pm And here we are now. I found myself becoming one of Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): It is a pleasure to his Ministers in 2010. follow my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and I shall now do what I should not do, and reveal a Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw. He made a compelling collective internal political discussion between Ministers speech, in which he rightly identified an immense problem who had some responsibility for justice and those from that goes to the heart of the issue with which our drugs the Home Office. Of course, we did not dare to raise policy must deal. this issue. I pushed as hard as I could for us at least to I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion get to where we are today, and I congratulate the (Caroline Lucas) on securing the debate. I recall having Minister and his predecessor on having pushed so hard a conversation with one of her co-signatories, the right to secure the report that has just been published. It is a 457 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 458

[Crispin Blunt] that could be the kind of consequences that my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood described, big step forward for us to persuade the Government relating to tranquillisers. There could be a significant even to specify the international comparators. The hon. increase in health problems if we legalised and regulated Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) was right to the supply of drugs that are currently illegal. However, point out that the conclusions appear to be missing the lessons from Portugal suggest that that would not from the report. Joking apart, however, we all need to happen. understand the political difficulty of carrying this debate Getting the supply of drugs out of the hands of with us. We have been frightened of the tabloid press, criminals would create the benefits that other hon. and we have seen what they did to the Liberal Democrat Members have mentioned. We would know what was in party as a result of some of its policies in this area. the drugs, that they were clean and that they had been The Home Affairs Select Committee’s recommendation obtained on the basis of sensible advice about their use. in 2012 for a royal commission was absolutely right. We would then have a society in which people took That will get the matter out of the political space, so responsibility for their actions. If someone drove under that the work on international comparators that has the influence of drugs, for example, they would have to been put into the report can be considered. The royal take the consequences, just as they would today if they commission will then be able to put forward the kind of drove under the influence of alcohol. difficult and far-reaching conclusions that I believe Given the scale of this issue, it is a pity that this would be appropriate to take us in the direction of debate has had to take place on a Back-Bench motion. regulation and away from the utterly disastrous policy The tide of opinion expressed by those who have taken of prohibition. part has so far gone entirely in one direction. I know from my experience as a Minister that, when we first Stephen Phillips: My hon. Friend talks about political looked at this matter, the Government spent about courage. In the debate earlier this week on the Recall of £900 million on trying to address addiction. The general MPs Bill, he made a brave speech on restoring the assessment from Ministers at the time was that that was reputation of Parliament. One way of doing that would achieving absolutely nothing. It was felt that the rate at be for us to take the lead on this matter and tell the which people were getting better would probably have truth about the fact that the existing drugs policy has been exactly the same if that money had not been spent. not worked. Should we not simply take on the tabloids—and We were making serious efforts, and the Government damn the consequences—by putting in place a policy are to be commended for their efforts, particularly in that works and that is best for the people of this the criminal justice system, to join up the management country? of addicted offenders, but this could all happen much faster and be much more effective if we grasped the root Crispin Blunt: I wholly agree with my hon. and learned of the problem—namely, the consequences of prohibition. Friend. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham In the end, drugs are drugs. Alcohol is a drug. We have (Guy Opperman), he has seen at first hand the horrifying heard about the example of prohibition in the United consequences of the failure of our policy in the prison States, and of its war on drugs. Both those policies have system. I visited 70-odd prisons during my time as been utter calamities, and they should present a lesson prisons Minister, and the most depressing part of those to the world. I sincerely hope that we in this House will visits was seeing the methadone queue. The prisoners be able to force Her Majesty’s Government to have the queuing up to be prescribed their methadone were courage to address this serious issue in a way that could sallow, emaciated and plainly ill, and they had almost be of immense benefit to many of our citizens. no prospect of getting better, given the treatment that they were getting. Several hon. Members rose— We worked hard to start to join up the different parts of the criminal justice system in relation to addiction. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Before We wanted to divert addicts away from the criminal I call the next speaker, I should like to suggest that justice system and into the health system right at the speeches should last for no more than eight minutes. We beginning of the process, so that they could get proper are struggling with time, and quite a few people wish to treatment. One of the aims of the probation service speak in the next debate. There is more than one debate reforms is to incentivise the service in regard to the today, and we must think of the others who want to successful rehabilitation of offenders. About 46% of speak. acquisitive crime is drug related, as a result of people trying to feed their habit. If we are to rehabilitate such 1.27 pm people successfully, we need to address their addiction. Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (Ind): I We ran eight pilots in the health service to try to congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion identify the best ways of incentivising the health system (Caroline Lucas) on moving the motion today. As the to address addiction. All those measures are just baby hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) said, everyone steps, however, given the way in which the drugs industry who has spoken so far has supported her views in one has been criminalised. According to a Library note, way or another. Like the hon. Member for Newport West Home Office figures show that the cost of the problem (Paul Flynn), I have been dealing with this issue for a to the criminal justice system is about £13.9 billion. long time. When I spoke in a debate in the House nearly Legalisation would create a risk of adverse health 30 years ago, I told the story of how my closest friend consequences. We might see an explosion in drug use, had gone to prison for possession of pot—cannabis—in just as we have in the use of another drug, called the late ’60s. He was in prison for six months and he alcohol, which is omnipresent in our society. Linked to came out a heroin addict. Within six months of his 459 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 460 coming out of prison, I went to his flat to call for him the Army, in his case, and of other organisations, which one day, only to find him dead on the floor. He had died have taken draconian measures against people for the of a heroin overdose. From that day on, I have done very minor crime of carrying or smoking cannabis. We everything I can to fight the scourge of drugs and to have to look seriously at this issue. We owe it to the bring to people’s attention not only how evil and destructive people outside this place because, as other Members drugs are but how senseless the policies to combat them have said, they are now ahead of Parliament on this are. matter. We should not be playing catch-up; we should The report on so-called legal highs is an interesting want to find a way of leading on the issue. The report document, and the Government’s response to it is equally on comparisons is a step in the right direction, but I interesting, but they do not mention how we are going hope that the strength of the support in the Chamber to solve the problem. It is proposed that we talk and today will carry forth that message to our colleagues, think more about it, but we need to look at the overall including the Prime Minister, who should be continuously picture of how we are going to help people by dealing reminded of his stance in 2002. He should be reminded with drugs in prisons and in the community generally. of it daily, because when he talks about this issue he The hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric seems to forget what he might have said before. Ollerenshaw) spoke eloquently about the late Jim Dobbin. Jim dealt with this issue not only in this country but Zac Goldsmith: The hon. Gentleman might like to abroad. I sat on committees with him in the Council of know that today’s Guido Fawkes quote of the day is the Europe, where he persistently got the issue on to the one on drug laws that we have heard cited by a number agenda, against the odds, and got it discussed. We owe of hon. Members. Jim a great debt of gratitude for his courage in tackling this issue and for having the strength of character to Mr Hancock: I am delighted to hear that Guido keep fighting for it. We are doing him justice by keeping Fawkes is talking about something other than me. We the debate going. I was delighted to hear the hon. have an opportunity now and we squander it at our Gentleman’s comments about Jim; we are sad that he is peril. We should look forward to this Minister getting not here today. the backing of his boss, the Home Secretary, and of the What we do know about drugs is that we have spent Prime Minister to make sure that we have the opportunity billions of pounds and we have a policy that, by common to do something positive, for once, on the issue of agreement, has failed; it has taken us not a step forward. drugs. Let us not just continue to know that we have That is why I congratulate my right hon. Friend the failed. Minister for Crime Prevention on having the courage to persevere and the commitment to see this report through 1.34 pm on the comparisons that need to be examined seriously. Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): The hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) said that Finding myself simultaneously in agreement with the it contained few conclusions. There are no conclusions hon. Members for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), in it, but there are ideas of where we could go. The for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and for Cambridge Members who have talked about a royal commission (Dr Huppert) is a first since I entered this place in 2010. are going in the right direction; the sooner that can be When I came down to the Chamber this morning and I done, the better. was thinking about the speech I was going to make and We have to examine the situation in Portugal, which the notes I had made, I thought I was going to be has been mentioned a lot. The report says clearly that committing political suicide. However, it is apparent not only has cannabis use there been reduced, but from the contributions made by Members from across heroin use and cocaine use have been reduced dramatically. the House today that there is unanimity of view within The way in which the initial possession has been treated the House: the current position, enshrined in the Misuse as a health-related matter and not a criminal one is a of Drugs Act 1971, can no longer prevail. I pay particular major step in the right direction. If we can do no more tribute to the hon. Member for Newport West, who, as in the life of this Parliament, before it ends next year, he rightly reminded the House, has been speaking, with than get the royal commission set up and get the idea one voice, on this issue for the past four decades. I have that we treat the possession of very small amounts of to tell him that the end is in sight and he is going to win drugs, in some cases, as a health-related matter rather in due course. than a criminal one— I wish to start my observations by setting out three Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I want to support startlingly simple propositions, with which this Minister the excellent speeches I have been hearing. As a would agree. The first is that the so-called “war on commanding officer in the Army, I had far too often to drugs” has been lost. My right hon. Friend the Member rid myself and the Army of outstanding young men for Reigate— and young woman because they had just touched a drug. Things have got better, but think what will happen Crispin Blunt: Honourable. once we deal with this as a medical and not a criminal situation? Of course if someone is high on drugs and leading Stephen Phillips: Just honourable—that is a great shame. a patrol, they have to be brought before the commanding My hon. Friend made reference to all the political officer. But if we are talking about just possession and leaders from across the world who have, in effect, made just usage, our current approach is just too wrong. that point since they have left public office. He is no Mr Hancock: The hon. Gentleman is for ever bringing longer on the Front Bench and feels able, as I do, from us his experience and the House should welcome that. the Back Benches to make the point that the war on Once again, he has touched on a very important point: drugs has been lost. That is a strong indication that we careers are being thrown away because of the attitude of are getting policies completely wrong. 461 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 462

[Stephen Phillips] Bob Stewart: You are of course a criminal—

The second proposition is that existing drugs policy, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): I focusing principally on criminalisation, is detrimental am not a criminal. to health outcomes for individuals and damages society as a whole. The third proposition can now be made with Bob Stewart: Forgive me, Madam Deputy Speaker, confidence, given the report published by the Government you are certainly not a criminal, but others may well be this morning—I will come back to the issue of whether criminals if they take drugs or alcohol and put members or not it contains any conclusions—but the report on of the public in danger as a consequence. They are comparative experience in other jurisdictions makes it criminals, but just taking a drug or drinking something clear, especially in relation to Portugal although the does not make them criminals. evidence from a number of other jurisdictions is the same, that decriminalisation not only leads to better Stephen Phillips: I am extremely grateful to my hon. outcomes for individuals but lessens the bill for the Friend for his intervention. If we look at the difference criminal justice system and provides greater benefits for between recreational drug usage and smoking, we will society as a whole. One of those benefits, which I see that the harm is so much greater with smoking. For mentioned when I intervened on the hon. Member for every 1,000 smokers who are admitted to hospital, Cambridge, is that it leads to respect for the criminal 123 of them are suffering from health problems directly law. caused by smoking. If we look at 1,000 drug users who One problem we have at the moment is that a large are admitted to hospital, only two of them are there number of young people who are using psychoactive because of the use of illegal drugs. We have at least one substances do not regard that as a crime. For them to be drug in this country—we could add alcohol to the list criminalised by the laws of this country leads to a —that is far more dangerous than anything that anybody general disrespect on their part for the criminal law and uses by way of recreational drugs or other illegal drugs. for this place. The hon. Member for Hackney North We must focus our attention on dealing with that as a and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) made an important health problem rather than as a criminal problem. point in her earlier intervention: we are, or we are Let me come back to one of my opening propositions, perceived by many of our constituents, to be behind the which is that the war on drugs has been lost. A survey of curve on this issue. We are perceived not to be in touch the public earlier this year proves that that is not just my and not to be living in 2014. That is because successive view. It is the view not just of the world leaders who Governments, of all colours, have been held back from used to hold office to whom my hon. Friend the Member doing the right thing, and I want to congratulate this for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) referred, but of 84% of Minister on having, for the first time, what my hon. people in this country. It is true that only 39%—up from Friend the Member for Reigate describes as an “intelligent 27% in 2008—of those in the same survey believed in debate”. This is the first time I have heard the House the widespread decriminalisation of illegal substances. discuss this issue in an intelligent debate. The likely reason for that is the hangover from the debate I intend to return to my three propositions, but it may that we have not been having in this country for the past be of assistance if I say that I come at this matter not four decades. We have not had a national debate on this only as an MP but as someone with experience of the issue, which is why people have not turned their minds criminal justice system, not really from practice but to the question of whether some form of liberalisation, from having been a Crown court recorder. Any criminal some different approach, taking into account the justice professional in this country we speak to, be they detrimental health effects, is the right way forward. a judge, a police officer or someone working in the As the hon. Member for Newport West said, what is probation service, will tell us the same thing: not only is the point of this war on drugs? If it is to prevent people our current approach to the use of illegal drugs in this from taking substances that may harm them, plainly it country not the right one, but it is not based on evidence. is not working. According to the most recent crime Furthermore, it is detrimental to individuals and to survey for England and Wales, 2.7% of adults had society as a whole. taken class A drugs in 1996 compared with 2.6% now— statistically not significant. Nobody has been speaking for young people on this issue. They regard us in this House as dinosaurs when My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), we consider the use of recreational drugs. They consider who is no longer in her place, referred to the fact that us to be living in a different age, one in which they are there has been a seeming reduction in cannabis usage no longer living. They have no respect either for the among young people. There are many reasons for that, criminal law or for this House, as a result. We have to one of which might be the tougher line that has been move on. We have to recognise that times have changed. taken on cannabis by the Government, which has driven We must recognise the broad array of recreational people into using so-called legal highs, on which the psychoactive substances that are now available to young Minister has today published his report. people and have an intelligent policy that does not just If we talked to criminal justice professionals—judges, say, “You are a criminal if you use those substances.” the police and probation officers—we would learn that Instead, we should say, “There are very significant risks they do not support the war on drugs. It is a war that to your health and very significant costs potentially to has been lost. If we acknowledged that fact and looked society. Although it is a matter for you whether you use at the experience of Portugal and the other jurisdictions those drugs, there will be consequences, but they will be that have liberalised their drug regimes and taken away consequences that we will principally deal with through criminal penalties for small amounts of possession, we the health system rather than through the criminal would free up enormous resources for the police. More justice system.” importantly, we would free up enormous financial resources 463 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 464 for the treatment of those who are addicted to these Untrammelled use of drugs, especially recreational substances. Therefore, I venture to suggest that I am drugs, fuels disinhibition in those who take them, and correct in my first proposition—I think the Minister that in itself leads to criminal behaviour. We know that will agree with me—that the war on drugs has been lost that is a significant part of organised crime. The Association and that we must look very carefully at a new policy. of Chief Police Officers has estimated that 50% of all My second proposition was that the health outcomes organised crime in the UK involves illegal drugs, mostly of existing policy are at best poor. In fact, what also class A drugs. The United Nations Office on Drugs and happens is that society is harmed by existing policy. We Crime has said that drugs are the most profitable sector know that funding a drug habit is not a cheap business. of organised international crime, with a total turnover It increases crime, particularly acquisitive crime. Drug of $2 trillion in 2009. dependency is therefore one of the drivers of crime in My third proposition is that other countries are doing this country. Home Office figures for 2003-04 show that this much better, and that is why the Minister’s views the annual cost of drug-related offending is £13.9 billion, and the report that he and his predecessors, including £9.9 billion of which goes to the victims of crime. The my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate, have pushed other £4 billion of public money is being poured into for so hard, are so important. In the limited time the criminal justice system every year to deal with the available, I will deal only— issue. If that £4 billion were taken away from the criminal justice system and put into the health system Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): to try to encourage better outcomes, we would not only Order. I am glad that the hon. and learned Member get something better for those who use illegal substances referred to the limited time. Mr Deputy Speaker asked and for society, but achieve a reduction on the total Members to confine their remarks to about eight minutes, amount that has to be spent. so that everyone who wished to speak would be able to If existing policy is not deterring drug use and drug do so. The hon. and learned Gentleman has now been dependency, it is leading to crime, and that cannot be in speaking for fifteen and a half minutes. I would be anybody’s interests. A great deal of money is evidently grateful if he came to a conclusion. being wasted, and it is money that, in these times of austerity, should not be wasted. Stephen Phillips: I am extremely grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will be quick. Let us turn now to the health of those who take The experience in Portugal is absolutely clear: illegal substances. By criminalising them, are we dealing liberalisation of the regime for small amounts of possession adequately with them? Many young people who take is the way forward. I know that the Minister believes drugs have no idea not only what they are taking, but that, and while other hon. Members have pointed to the what the effects of those drugs might be. Those who are fact that there are no conclusions in the report, I standing in a nightclub at 1o’clock in the morning venture to suggest that that is because they have looked having consumed, no doubt, a large amount of vodka only at the section on Portugal. If they go to page 51 of are much more interested in getting the pill than they the report, they will see a section entitled “Observations”. are in what is in the pill. What is in the pill is not always I dread to think of the negotiation that went on in the what people have been told. They might be told that it is Home Office to replace the word “Conclusions” with MDMA when it is some other entactogen that has not “Observations”. There are four bullet points there. All been tested on humans. It may be rat poison, or it may hon. Members who have spoken in the debate and even be harmless. Even if someone does know that the anyone who is interested in the issue need to look at the pill they are about to pop is ecstasy, there is no guarantee experience of Portugal and those four bullet points, that they are aware of its potential effects. Although because they are essentially the conclusions of the there are admirable websites such as Talk to Frank, not Portuguese experience. The most important is the second many young people necessarily go on them. Not everyone one, which states: knows about the risks of these drugs or how to mitigate those risks. We know that from some of the tragic cases “There is evidence from Portugal of improved health prospects for users, though these cannot be attributed to decriminalisation that we have seen in the past of users taking excessive alone.” amounts of drugs in clubs and elsewhere. Whether or not they cannot be attributed to Let us consider those who inject their drugs, and look decriminalisation alone, what is clear, from all the at the comparative treatment in other places, and the contributions in the debate, is that the existing regime, experience of the criminal justice system in Georgia. contained in the 1971 Act, is not working, and that we Georgia reduced its prison population from 24,000 to need a different approach. That approach, which the 10,000 by taking out of prison those who had been put Minister is championing today and which is the subject there for possession of small amounts of drugs. The matter of the debate, is a great thing, which I urge the first result of that was a massive saving to the taxpayers House to think about deeply. I urge hon. Members to who fund the Republic of Georgia. Much more importantly, support the motion. there was an incredible improvement in the health of the prison population. Deaths in prison fell, and there 1.51 pm was a significant reduction in the hepatitis C and HIV infection rates among the prison population. I am not Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) sure whether that experience is included in the Minister’s (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, report, but it is another strong indication that we are Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on bringing forward the debate, not doing this right and that if we focused on this as a and thank the Backbench Business Committee for making health issue rather than as a criminal justice issue, we it possible. I was a Member of the House before that would serve our constituents and our society a great Committee came into existence and I cannot stress deal better. enough to Members who arrived in 2010 how much it 465 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 466

[Ms Diane Abbott] Ms Abbott: I am grateful to stand corrected on that. Certainly Ministers in the two major parties have been has done in making this sort of debate possible—debates increasingly behind the opinion of their constituents, that perhaps neither Front-Bench team wanted to happen, who, after all, could be eminently respectable figures but on issues that the public want debated. but might just possibly in their youth have been in a I agree about the importance of having a thoroughgoing room with someone who was smoking cannabis. They review on UK drugs policy. First, we must put this into will know that young people growing up in London its international context. Most of the leaders of some of today cannot lead a life where they never come across, the countries that have been at the heart of the international never see or never hear of people smoking cannabis. war on drugs would say now that it is not working. Our constituents may be more realistic about these More people are taking drugs than before. The harms issues than some Ministers have been able to be in the caused by drugs in some countries—in South America, past and even now. the Caribbean, Afghanistan—have got worse. So there This has been a difficult issue for MPs and Ministers, is an international context, in which people are recognising but speaking as someone who represents a constituency that an essentially punitive and criminalising approach that sees the very worst of drug harms, and on the basis to drugs is not working. As I said in an intervention, of the evidence, past reports and today’s Home Office individual American states are moving towards report, there is an unanswerable case for a review of UK decriminalisation, notably Colorado. Given that the drugs policy. decriminalisation in Colorado has boosted its tourism trade, I put it to the House that it will not be the only 1.57 pm US state that goes down that road. Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): Most of the On the question of decriminalisation, I am by nature things that I wanted to say have been said, so I will be a libertarian, but I have always taken seriously the brief. I just want to put on record my admiration for the arguments of good friends and people with whom I hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) work in Hackney. Their argument has always been that for having secured this debate, and for having raised the the skunk that young people smoke nowadays is a much profile of the issue considerably in recent weeks and more serious matter than the marijuana that some of us months. I also want to pay tribute to the Minister. It is may have come across when we were young, and that it true that the report out today has no clear, firm conclusions, is one thing for a fully grown adult, such as a student, to but I have no doubt that it is pushing the discussion in a smoke a spliff at a party at a weekend, but when very healthy direction. pre-pubescent children smoke skunk, hour after hour when they are out of school, it must, of necessity, have At the risk of being repetitive, I want to quote one an effect on their growth, educational development and aspect of the report, which is essential. It states: so forth. There was also some concerning research “We did not in our fact-finding observe any obvious relationship about the links between marijuana and schizophrenia. between the toughness of a country’s enforcement against drug possession, and levels of drug use in that country.” Therefore, although I have had libertarian instincts since I was a student, as in inner-city MP I take seriously It goes on to cite recent evidence in the Czech Republic some of the arguments about the possible harm, even of where tough laws coincide with relatively high use of smoking marijuana, and the signal that is sent by cannabis, but then, dealing with Portugal, it states: decriminalising it. “Although levels of drug use rose between 2001 and 2007, use of most drugs has since fallen to below-2001 levels. It is clear that The fact remains, however, that if we are about there has not been a lasting and significant increase in drug use in anything in the House, we should be about evidence-based Portugal since 2001.” policy. This latest report, which the Government have If that is the case, and it certainly syncs with many other belatedly released, shows that there does not appear to reports on the same issues and the same case studies, be evidence internationally that a more punitive, criminalised there is a serious question to answer. If the law is not response brings down levels of consumption. On this acting as a disincentive to drugs use, and therefore, issue, Members of Parliament have been unduly timid logically, drugs use will continue at more or less the in the past. I can remember my own Home Secretary, a same levels, with other factors knocking it up and down wonderful man, the right hon. Member for Kingston in various places, the question is whether we want that upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), who sacked trade to belong to the criminals or to be under the his adviser because they told him something that he did umbrella and regulatory regime of some sort of not want to hear: that alcohol was a much more harmful government. For me, the answer is obvious. drug than cannabis, not only physically but in terms of the social disorder, domestic violence and so on that it There is also a practical issue. This is not an ideological promotes. I am sorry to say that my right hon. Friend’s or philosophical issue. According to the figures I have response was not to say, “Gosh, isn’t that interesting. I seen, in 2012, 14% of people in jail were there for must look into these facts,”but to sack the man concerned. drug-related offences, and last year there were 87,871 Members of Parliament have been timid and have not convictions on the back of drug offences in this country. taken an evidence-based approach. It may well be that Obviously, not all of them ended up in jail. So the Members are behind the opinion of our constituents— question is whether the present policy offers value for money. It comes with a multibillion pound price tag, Crispin Blunt: The hon. Lady should differentiate and the cost goes well beyond the money. We have to between Members of Parliament and Ministers, who ask ourselves who wins from this policy. My hunch, and have responsibility for the positions of their party. I the hunch of many Members who have spoken today, is think she will find that when Members of Parliament that the laws in place today have little effect other than have looked at this properly, as the Home Affairs Committee to create a black market and therefore opportunities for has done repeatedly, they have been properly courageous. the very worst people in society. We have laws in place 467 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 468 that enrich the bad people while doing very little, if Of course, we all want to look at the evidence. In the anything, to protect those whom we all have a common Home Affairs Committee report, one of the first bullet interest in protecting. points in the key facts section states: The present policy does not seem to me to offer great “England and Wales has almost the lowest recorded level of value for money. I know that there is a growing consensus drug use in the adult population since measurement began in outside this place on this matter, and this debate shows 1996. Individuals reporting use of any drug in the last year fell that there is a great consensus in this place, too, which I significantly from 11.1% in 1996 to 8.9% in 2011-12. There was also a substantial fall in the use of cannabis from 9.5% in 1996 to was not expecting to hear. The motion seems to be 6.9% in 2011-12.” unarguable. We need an evidence-based policy system, and the first step is the review for which the hon. Let us consider all the evidence and see what is happening. Member for Brighton, Pavilion is calling. I very much I want to focus on treatment and all the comments support it, and I am thrilled that everyone else in the that have been made today about the situation in Portugal, Chamber today has supported it. which is a key part of the international comparator report. Little has been made of the fact that the trends in Britain are very similar to what has happened in 2pm Portugal. It is important to remember that the changes Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): in drug laws in Portugal were accompanied by significant Like every other Member here today, I welcome the investment in drug treatment, as we have had in the opportunity to debate this matter. I congratulate the United Kingdom. When we examine drug harms and hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) what has had an impact, it is not clear that a change in on securing the debate. It has been a high-quality and legislation is the driving force. wide-ranging debate. We have heard from two Select Committee Chairs. We have talked about prescription Caroline Lucas: I want to make sure that there is no drugs, prisons and the international issues that we need risk of complacency creeping into the hon. Lady’s to address. remarks. It is important to know that there were 2,000 I welcome the international comparator report which drug-related deaths in England and Wales in 2013 and a was published today. It received a lot of media hype 32% increase in heroin and morphine-related deaths. overnight. I found it quite difficult to get a copy of the The number of deaths involving both legal and illegal report until the Home Office provided a link to the drugs last year was at its highest level since 2001. There Table Office at about 11 am, so I have not had a chance are different ways in which we can look at the figures, to digest the contents of the report fully. It has been a but the bottom line is that we need a review of the long time coming and it is a shame that we could not evidence. Will she support that? have had it a few days earlier so that we could have reflected on it in full. Diana Johnson: I do not want to be considered complacent, but we need to get all the evidence on the I was rather bemused this morning to hear the Minister table so that we can assess it. There is some merit in on Radio 4. I was not quite sure whether he was looking at what has happened regarding treatment in speaking as the Minister or as a Liberal Democrat this country over the past 10 to 12 years. The European Member of Parliament, as the Home Office later put Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction says out a contradictory statement. Perhaps he can clarify that this country is well ahead of comparators. In 2010 whether he is speaking on behalf of the Government 60% of opioid users were in treatment. That compares today. I know that he has had difficulty in the past in with 12% in the Netherlands and 25% in Sweden. So I speaking on behalf of the Government, and that he had am not sure that I agree with the motion that the status to absent himself from the khat debate because he did quo is failing. Drug-related deaths among the under-30s not agree with the Government’s policy on khat. have halved in a decade, and it has been calculated that The report on legal highs has also been published getting people into drug treatment has prevented 4.9 million today alongside the international comparator report. crimes being committed, saving the economy £960 million. Again, we welcome this, but it has been a long time This is evidence that we should all consider. coming. We on the Labour Benches called for the issue to be tackled much earlier; the growing market in legal Keith Vaz: My hon. Friend has always been very highs has been allowed to flourish over the past few thoughtful and careful in the way in which she has dealt years. We are pleased to see the report. I pay tribute to with this issue. I agree that we need to get all the Maryon Stewart and the Angelus Foundation, who evidence out and examine it. Will members of the have pushed the issue of legal highs and the need for Opposition Front-Bench team commit to establishing a legislation to deal with the problems that have developed. royal commission to look at the issue in detail so that we Three key issues on legal highs emerge from the can base our policy on the evidence? report, on which I hope the Minister will be able to reassure me. First, I hope there will be a comprehensive Diana Johnson: I am grateful to the Chair of the prevention and awareness campaign on legal highs. Select Committee. What worries me about the idea that Secondly, we need a clear legislative framework to try to a royal commission will solve the problem for us is that disrupt the supply of new psychoactive substances and there are issues that we need to tackle now—for example, stop headshops proliferating on our high streets. Thirdly— legal highs. I am pleased, as I said at the outset, that we perhaps this should have been the starting point—we now have a plan from the Government for legislation in need a proper framework for assessing the scale and the relation to legal highs. I am not discounting a royal danger of legal highs. We need to know when legal commission, but we need to keep abreast of the issues highs enter the UK and what dangers they pose. I hope that are developing now. We need to put in place ways the Minister may be able to assist with that today. of tackling legal highs and other issues. 469 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 470

[Diana Johnson] One of the key issues raised in tackling drugs policy in this country is the link between criminal justice and It is important to remember that access to treatment health. That resulted in the establishment of the National is a key issue. In 2001 it took nine weeks to access Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse, which brought treatment; in 2011 it took five days. We should be mindful together the Home Office and the Department of Health, that that was because of the investment in health services. recognising the social harms that come from drug abuse Once people are in treatment, it is important to make and from people breaking the law by engaging in acquisitive sure that they complete it. In 2005-06, 35,000 people crime as a result. There was a recognition that in order dropped out and only 11,000 completed treatment, to tackle that we needed to get them into treatment. whereas in 2011-12, 17,000 dropped out but 29,000 Huge investment was made, but it was a combined completed treatment. We should be aware of such evidence effort from both Departments. It is important to remember when we debate the drugs situation. that that has been successful, because crime has been dropping. One of the reasons for that was the commitment Crispin Blunt: I acknowledge that, as the Opposition to getting people into treatment so that they were not spokesman, the hon. Lady is in a difficult position. She committing offences. is calling for evidence. Whatever her comments on the I want to mention France, because in its health care early part of the motion, it concludes by calling system drugs are seen as a health issue, not a criminal “on the Government to conduct an authoritative and independent justice one. We know that France tends to invest less in cost-benefit analysis and impact assessment of the Misuse of treatment as a percentage of GDP—about one fifth of Drugs Act 1971 and to publish the results of those studies within the investment that this country makes. Saying that it is the next 12 months.” just a health issue and thinking that that will solve the It would be of immense help if the Opposition proposed problem is not reflected in the facts. such a motion on an Opposition day so that it could be voted on in the House. It would then carry greater authority and they would achieve exactly what she Several hon. Members rose— wants—to get the evidence out there. Diana Johnson: I am going to carry on, because I am Diana Johnson: I recognise that it is important for the conscious that time is short and the Minister has still to House to have these debates, and it is good that the speak. [Interruption.] Well, I think it is important not Backbench Business Committee granted this one, but I just to have a one-sided debate in which we all say that think that the hon. Gentleman is right and that the the war on drugs has failed. The UKDPC has said that Government perhaps need to ensure that such issues are this country is a world leader in treatment, and I think debated in Government time, with clear options for we should recognise that as something very positive. what they feel should be taken forward. I am concerned, as is my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), Ms Abbott: Will my hon. Friend give way? about what is happening to the spend on treatment. Health and wellbeing boards do not need to have criminal Diana Johnson: I will give way one last time. justice representation. I think that is a problem, because it means separating health and criminal justice. I hope Ms Abbott: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, for that the Minister will be able to respond to that concern. whom I have the utmost respect, but when she says that the status quo is not failing, I do not understand what Local authority budgets are under enormous pressure. world she is living in. It is failing young people in Their public health budgets—the majority of the funding London. I think that her faith in the statistics on access comes from the pooled drug and alcohol treatment to treatment is misplaced, because young people in the moneys made available—are being raided. John Ashton, east end of London have great difficulty accessing president of the Faculty of Public Health, has referred treatment. The status quo is failing. Young people of all to this asset stripping of public health by local authorities. classes—not just the underclass—are continuing to suffer Perhaps the Minister will respond to that point. from drug harm because Members of this House are I am also concerned about the role of police and too frightened to look at the recent evidence. crime commissioners, because they had responsibility for £120 million that went into treatment through drug Diana Johnson: I am not frightened to look at the and alcohol partnerships. They now have no incentive evidence, but we need to look at what is happening to spend the money in that way, and I am concerned today in the round; we must not cherry-pick. I have the that because of their lack of representation on health same concerns as my hon. Friend about treatment now, and wellbeing boards, a real problem is developing. because of the Government’s misguided reforms of the I want to make a few final points. On recovery, the NHS. There is fragmentation in the treatment services hon. Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt)—I know and across the country, which is something that many people respect him as a former Prisons Minister—talked about are genuinely concerned about. [Interruption.] the complex needs of drug addicts, particularly those in prison. I think we need to have a much wider debate on Several hon. Members rose— what recovery means and how we support people recovering from drug addiction. That means how we support them Diana Johnson: I am going to carry on, because it is into housing, how we shore up family relationships, important that these issues are brought to the House’s which are very important, and how we secure employment attention. They might not be what everybody wants to opportunities. Those are all key issues that have to be hear, but I think they need to be recognised. part of a bigger debate on drugs. 471 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 472

I think that it is absolutely right that the police’s focus I welcome the efforts of the Backbench Business must be on disrupting the supply of drugs, disrupting Committee, the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion organised crime and ensuring that addicts get treatment. (Caroline Lucas), who is my near neighbour, my hon. It is very disappointing today to see that there has been Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and a 60% drop in the amount of heroin seized by police many other Members—many of them are here today—who over the past year, because that is another important over the years have made brave comments that have not part of tackling this problem. always been welcomed by the Government of the day. I On prosecuting for possession, the previous Labour sense that there is a public mood now for a proper Government introduced the penalty notices that were debate on these matters, and what could be wrong used for the possession of cannabis, and the Government about a proper debate on a matter of such importance? have adopted them for khat, so it is not the case that It is much better than trying to shut down debate and someone in possession of drugs will get a custodial pretend that everything is all right. sentence. However, I think that the Liberal Democrats The coalition Government has made lots of progress have now said that there should be no prison sentences over the past few years, which I am very pleased with, at all for possession, so I want to check with the and there was progress in some regards under the previous Minister whether that is the new Government policy. As Labour Government. However, it would be arrogant to I understand it, that is for repeat offenders, not one-off say that we have everything right and that we can learn offenders. nothing from other countries. Of course we can learn I think that we have a lot of work to do on how we from other countries, and it is right that we should seek deal with criminal records. The hon. and learned Member to do so. The report seeks to highlight some of those for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) lessons that can be learned. mentioned the fact that someone with a drugs conviction My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge and the can be prevented from entering the Unites States. We hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham need to look at what simple possession means for criminal (Stephen Phillips) referred to the Portuguese experience. records, especially for young people who might be found The hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) with a pill or an assortment of pills on one occasion. drew attention to the fact—he quoted the report in That will result in a caution, which will then result in full—that we have learned from Portugal for more than later problems for employment and travel. That is another a decade that there is no correlation, at least in that issue that we need to include in a wider debate. country, between the level of penalty available and the I feel that it is important that we do not just have a extent of drug use. That is an important finding that we one-sided debate. We need to look at what has worked ought to bear in mind as we go forward. in this country and around the world and base the My right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and debate on evidence. Some of the evidence that I have Harpenden (Mr Lilley), who is not in his seat, made an tried to present has in effect been queried and shouted interesting case for legalising cannabis. That is not down, and that is absolutely fine, but we need to have Government policy, I have to tell him, but his case was the debate. We cannot just say that it has all failed coherent and others may or may not want to take it without recognising some of this country’s huge successes forward. The report’s stated position—its “observations” in drug treatment. as the civil servants put it—is that we ought to keep a watching eye. Of course we should keep a watching eye 2.17 pm on what is happening in the world. Does anyone argue that we should not? The Minister for Crime Prevention (Norman Baker): I had felt that I was in a somewhat surreal debate, hearing These are experiments and it is far too early to say all Members on both sides of the House agree about the what the outcomes will be. They may be negative or need for reform and a different approach, all making positive, as my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes coherent arguments about why the present arrangements (Dr Wollaston) said. We do not yet know the consequences, need to change. But I woke from my dream when I but we should certainly watch with interest to see what heard from the shadow Minister, who appears to be the they will be for public health and crime—and public only Member of the House who wishes to defend the finances, indeed, if we are to see a regulated market status quo absolutely. such as that in Colorado or Uruguay. The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) said that he has waited 43 years for this report. I think Bob Stewart: We have not touched much on the subject that it is a very good report and that people can take of crime. If we legalised drugs, the business would be from it what they want; they can look at the evidence less lucrative to the criminal world and that would stop and draw their conclusions from it. I think that the some of the criminal gangs killing one another. We Home Office deserves credit for having the courage to would have the bonus of fewer young people being issue it, and I hope that it will be the start of a debate. killed on the streets of London. My view, which is drawn not only from the report but from the public opinion polls that have been referred to, Norman Baker: I shall take that as a comment in is that the genie is out of the bottle and it is not going support of our right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin back in. I think that the days of robotic, mindless and Harpenden. As I said, it is not Government policy rhetoric are over, because the facts and the evidence will to legalise drugs—nor, I think, is it the policy of any no longer allow that. We now have to base what we do party in the House. However, my hon. Friend has made as a country on the facts and the evidence that we can his point. Those sorts of discussions ought to be taking accrue, and the issuing of this report is part of the place and people ought to be able to argue the whys and attempt to do that. wherefores in each case. 473 UK Drugs Policy30 OCTOBER 2014 UK Drugs Policy 474

[Norman Baker] and a proper legal framework. No doubt we will take that forward as and when we have a full response from I turn to the question of new psychoactive substances, the public to what we have produced so far. We intend sometimes unhelpfully called “legal highs”. The hon. to take action; I give the hon. Lady an absolute assurance Member for Brighton, Pavilion wanted more detail about that we are not just publishing a paper. what we were doing and was not entirely sure whether My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford our policy was correct. I should say to her that in some and North Hykeham, my hon. Friends the Members for ways it mirrors the approach taken in the international Totnes and for Cambridge, the hon. Member for Brighton, comparative study: it recommends that we get very Pavilion and the Opposition spokesman all referred to tough on the suppliers of these dangerous substances, the need to ensure that we take account of health, which cause immense harm to our constituents and, and that is absolutely right. In my view, the issue is unfortunately, the deaths of young people. We are trying predominantly one of users’ health; it is a criminal issue to rid our high streets of headshops, which are not an for those who peddle the substances, but a health issue asset, but we do not seek to criminalise the users of the for those who end up taking them. We should frame our substances. That approach seems entirely appropriate— actions accordingly. The Government has done a great hammering down on those causing misery and helping deal to help—through its recent heroin-assisted treatment those who use the substances. programmes, for example. The Chair of the Home Affairs Committee rightly Stephen Phillips: Does the Minister share my concern referred to prescription medicines, as did my hon. Friend that a blanket ban on new psychoactive substances may the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric result, first, in driving young people to take illegal drugs Ollerenshaw). I commissioned the Advisory Council on and, secondly, to continue to take so-called legal highs the Misuse of Drugs to look into the whole issue and but without anyone being able to analyse what they are the evidence gathering is under way. We recognise that taking? Those products would no longer be marketed the issue is serious. Others taking action include the lawfully on the high street, petrol stations or anywhere Department of Health and Public Health England. The else. Has the Department looked at that issue? Royal College of General Practitioners and the Royal College of Psychiatrists have published a consensus Norman Baker: On the latter point, I do not believe statement of good practice to prevent and treat addiction that what is sold now is accurately described anyway on to medicines. We are taking action on that front as well. the packet; the information is not available to young people now, although the substances are legal at present. The Opposition spokesman asked whether I was speaking on behalf of the Government. The fact that I There is no simple answer that will solve all problems. am at this Dispatch Box perhaps gives a clue to the Every potential solution has drawbacks as well as answer, as well as the fact that the document issued this advantages. That is why I set up a review panel with the morning bore the Home Office logo. best brains in the country to look at the matters in great detail. They came to the unanimous conclusion about The issue of prescription drugs in prisons was also what should happen, and that is what we intend to take raised. The Justice Minister, my right hon. Friend the forward. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), is aware of the issue and considering it seriously, In fact, to pick up a point made by the Opposition as, I am sure, is the prisons Minister. There is a serious spokesperson, we are already taking forward some of issue in prisons; there is no point in denying that, and the panel’s recommendations. For example, Public Health the Ministers are seeing what they can do to reduce England is launching a toolkit to support local treatment dependence on prescription drugs in particular in prison. and prevention work in November 2014. It is piloting a new adverse event reporting system, akin to the Medicines I tell the House today that the Home Office is taking and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency yellow steps to make available Naloxone, which can prevent card system for medicines, and this month it is launching heroin overdoses. It is already available on prescription, its “Rise Above” campaign to build young people’s but we are amending regulations to make it more widely resilience to risky behaviours. available from next year. That will help people who come out of prison from over-using heroin and suddenly Action is already being taken as a result of the review. dying. That is a good public health measure, and it is That will give comfort to many Members on both sides, going forward. including my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), who has always campaigned heavily on I hope I have covered most of the large number of this issue on behalf of his constituents and others. The points that have been raised. I genuinely think that this measures are right and should be welcomed across the has been a really good debate; I know that Ministers country. generally say that, but it has been. It has been thoughtful, and Members have spoken from the heart and the head. There is a distinction between how we are treating I am grateful. The debate has now been opened; we can those who are peddling the substances and those who no longer rely on the stonewalling about drugs policy in are using them, as the hon. Member for Portsmouth this country that we have so often heard. There is a South (Mr Hancock) accurately said. I agree with the genuine debate to be had about the proper way forward Opposition spokesperson that we should congratulate and it has started today. The genie is out of the bottle, and thank Maryon Stewart and her organisation for the and it is not going back in. superb work they have done over the years to push the agenda and highlight the importance of prevention and education. 2.28 pm Key to the new psychoactive substances report is the Caroline Lucas: I simply want to thank all hon. fact that there will be prevention and awareness campaigning Members who have spoken in this incredibly powerful 475 UK Drugs Policy 30 OCTOBER 2014 476 debate. My only regret is that colleagues who are perhaps Sale of Park Homes not yet persuaded of the arguments were not here to hear them; those arguments were made in such a compelling way that we could probably have brought many of those 2.30 pm colleagues with us. Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): Several Members spoke about a feeling of optimism I beg to move, and a sense that the tide is turning. Notwithstanding That this House calls on the Government to set up a review of the slightly less optimistic speech from Labour’s Front the current fee of up to 10 per cent of the sale price of a park Bench spokesperson, I think that is absolutely right. I home payable to the park home site owner. feel excited about the announcement today that Naloxone I start by thanking the Backbench Business Committee will be more widely available. That is incredibly positive for selecting this debate. I am reminded of a previous and I thank the Minister for that, as well as for his Back-Bench debate on park homes that I led in 2010. response to the debate as a whole. That debate was attended by a very large number of We recognise that public opinion on the issue is Members, and it was an important step in achieving the changing: a poll today showed that 71% of the public passage of the Mobile Homes Act 2013, ably piloted think that the war on drugs has failed. Our responsibility through the House by my hon. Friend the Member for now is to make sure that politicians catch up with the Waveney (Peter Aldous). Although our numbers are public and recognise that we do not need to be afraid of lower today, I have received messages of support from the debate. If we look the evidence in the face, there is several MPs who are unable to attend and speak for an awful lot that we can work with. We can put in place various very good reasons. a much more effective drugs policy regime. On many occasions over the years, the House has I started this debate by referring to Martha, whose heard about how mobile park home owners have been 17th birthday it would have been today. Our laws let her exploited and badly treated by some site owners. It is a down. By failing to review our drugs laws, we would be matter for some celebration that appalling practices can letting down future Marthas as well. I want to end by now be prevented through the implementation of the paying tribute to her extraordinarily brave, eloquent 2013 Act, and there is also the ability to make use of the and tireless mother, Anne-Marie, and to all the other residential property tribunals. However, there is still campaigners who are urging all of us here to review and work to do to protect and ensure fairness towards a reform our drugs laws. I hope very much that we will fairly vulnerable population. show we have listened to them by passing this motion. Today we are focusing on the 10% commission charge Question put and agreed to. that is payable to the site owner on the sale of a park Resolved, home site. Well over 30,000 park home residents from That this House notes that drug-related harms and the costs to 975 parks have signed a petition against the up-to- society remain high; further notes that the independent UK 10% commission on the sale price of their homes that is Drugs Policy Commission highlighted the fact that Government payable to the site owner. is spending around £3 billion a year on policies that are often counterproductive; believes that an evidence-based approach is Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Does the right required in order for Parliament and the Government to pursue hon. Lady know of any other circumstances in which the most effective drugs policy in the future; welcomes the residents would have to pay this iniquitous charge of recommendation of the Home Affairs Select Committee in its 10%, particularly when it often applies to an older and Ninth Report of 2012-13, HC 184, that the Government consider vulnerable group of people? all the alternatives to the UK’s failing drug laws and learn from countries that have adopted a more evidence-based approach; Annette Brooke: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. notes that the Government has responded positively to this recommendation and is in the process of conducting an international It is difficult to think of anybody in a leasehold property comparators study to consider the effectiveness of national drug who would have to pay such an additional charge. We policies adopted by a range of countries; and calls on the Government need to look at what the money is used for, and I shall to conduct an authoritative and independent cost-benefit analysis expand on that later. and impact assessment of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 and to publish the results of those studies within the next 12 months. Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): I have had representations from residents of Garston Park caravan park about their concern that 10% is indeed a very high figure. The Mobile Homes Act says that the charge on the sale of a home can be up to 10%. Does the right hon. Lady have any statistics—or perhaps the Minister can give them when he responds—on how many park home owners are charging 10% as opposed to a lower figure? Annette Brooke: I think we will have to rely on the Minister being informed of that number. It has not been drawn to my attention that anybody charges less than the maximum, as is usually the case when a maximum is set. In July, over 200 park home owners travelled to London to lobby their MPs. That is an amazing number given the distance and the age of many park home owners. It is important to note that their campaign has no funding whatsoever. 477 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 478

[Annette Brooke] Alok Sharma: Will the right hon. Lady give way on that point? There are at least three elements to a site owners income, including the initial siting of the mobile home, Annette Brooke: I will, and then I must make some the pitch fees, and the commission payment. On the progress. siting of a new home, a site owner may purchase a new unit at a wholesale price and will incur further costs Alok Sharma: The right hon. Lady makes an interesting such as transportation and connection to services. However, point about transparency. A lot of these park homes are it is reasonable to assume that the final selling price will owned by individuals and private companies, so there is exceed all costs incurred, and perhaps produce a significant not the level of transparency in the accounts that one return. As soon as the home is re-sold, the commission would expect. Does she agree that as part of a review, clicks in. In another scenario, a park home owner could we should ask park owners to be a little more open to replace their home, meaning that they will be charged demonstrate whether a reduction in the 10% charge for connections to services and landscaping, leading to would really hit their bottom line as much as they say? more potential profit through re-charging—and again, when the unit is sold, the commission will click in. Annette Brooke: I absolutely agree. Transparency is On pitch fees, research by the National Association the key to finding the right answer for everybody in this of Park Home Residents in November 2013 revealed scenario. that monthly pitch fees in 1,075 parks varied from £40 Obviously, a site owner must get a reasonable return to £382, with an average of about £150 per month—quite on capital, and we want to encourage good site owners a lot for people on fixed incomes. The 2013 Act will to remain in the industry. Park homes are an important introduce some accountability, with an annual review of part of the housing supply and should be encouraged. pitch fees, an opportunity for park home owners to The Government acknowledge that the park homes challenge pitch fees on the basis of lack of maintenance sector plays an important role in the provision of low-cost or deterioration of the site, and a requirement for site housing for the elderly, and that it frees up under-occupied owners to justify increases above the retail prices index. homes that are much needed as we face a housing crisis. I hope that there will also be fully published audited However, with pitch fees, other overheads and the accounts for these transactions. 10% commission, many residents worry that the costs On the commission itself, it is sometimes argued that of owning a park home are becoming unviable. The this payment provides an important income stream to 10% commission charge is undoubtedly a matter of the site owner, and it is equally argued that the payment concern. Although it is now paid by the purchaser, it is essential for site improvements. A case is also put does reduce the sum of money paid to the seller. forward that it is not in the interests of park home Park operators have argued that they cannot remain owners, who are often on low incomes, to pay higher in business without the 10% commission charge, yet our pitch fees out of current income, as would be required petitioners have pointed out that it would be foolish for without this sales commission. In that sense, it might be a business to rely on an income that is unpredictable. It seen as a deferred payment. I do not want to create is difficult to predict how many new homes will be unintended consequences, and hence I am not following purchased, or used homes re-sold, in a year. Many the wording of the petition in asking that the commission residents reported feeling trapped in their homes and be scrapped or reduced, but calling for a review. I think unable to sell. Due to park rules, many sites are only for we need some facts. people of retirement age, and so the need to move into a Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I was at the rally in nursing home or some other form of residential care is a the summer and saw the strength of feeling about this real possibility. Having to give the park operator such a issue, which we are right to bring to the Floor of the high percentage from the sale of their home reduces the House. I completely concur with the right hon. Lady’s amount the seller has to put towards their care. view that we must not legislate in haste and repent at Park home owners feel discriminated against and leisure. She will be aware of the report from the Deputy ask, “In what other leasehold property arrangement Prime Minister’s Office back in 2002, which sounded a would a payment be made to the leaseholder on the sale note of caution about abolishing the 10% charge, saying of the property?”They cite examples of poorly maintained that pitch fees could rise to between 20% and 32% if we sites and no real improvements over time, and a perception did that. Having a review is absolutely the right way to of a luxury lifestyle for some site owners. Clearly, there go, and I back her on that as a fellow officer of the are counter-examples of exemplary site owners, which I all-party group on mobile homes. I also congratulate welcome, and I would like them to showcase their best her on securing this debate. practice. Transparency and published accounts would Annette Brooke: I will refer to the 2002 report later. be helpful, to encourage all site owners to follow best practice. Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (Ind): Another Park home owners also point out that the value of issue is whether site owners that are local authorities use the property is influenced by their contribution to the the same policies. Any review should encompass local home’s value via its upkeep and maintenance, and argue, authorities that own parks and also have the 10% rule, “Why should the site owner benefit from this contribution?” because they certainly do not justify the fee they take That is a good point. for the pitch in terms of work carried out on sites. Annette Brooke: I was not aware of that. We could Steve Brine: The Department put together an excellent demand transparency in that regard and find out how document, “Park homes: know your rights”, following much of the commission fee was ploughed back into the legislation promoted by my hon. Friend the Member improvements on the site. for Waveney (Peter Aldous). In the past, site owners 479 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 480 were part of the sale, because they had to approve it, the Committee relied heavily on the conclusions of a but the 2013 Act has taken them out of that equation. 2006 Government consultation published in 2007, which Did the right hon. Lady take that into consideration in turn relied on a report published in 2002. National when preparing her speech? associations for park home owners feel that the 2007 conclusions were heavily biased towards site owners Annette Brooke: The park home owners say that that and their trade bodies. I believe that, in total, there were gives even less justification for the 10% commission, only 1,250 responses to the consultation. I would be because the site owners are not involved any more. interested if the Minister could confirm that. If we had I received an interesting representation from a park a consultation today, I think the response would be very home owner, who wrote: different. I believe the responses came from only 230 parks, which is a limited number. “I am not personally in favour of abolition of the sales commission. This would remove an opportunity to improve the The park home associations did not accept the conclusion sector. Linking a reduced sales commission to site owner performance that the majority of park home owners wanted the will improve site maintenance, sustain home values and assist mobility.” commission to remain. Questions have also been raised with me about the independence of the 2002 report. It is That is an interesting idea and perhaps we could work it only in recent years that individual park home owners through. have made their voices heard in very large numbers and accessed democratic processes via petitions and lobbying, Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): The residents led by my amazing constituent Sonia McColl and others, of Brickhill Farm and Downlands park homes in my complementing the work of their excellent national constituency would welcome the right hon. Lady’s general associations, including the National Association of Park approach to the debate. Clearly, the 10% commission is Home Residents and the Independent Park Home Advisory having a behavioural effect on whether people are able Service. The situation is different from 2006. Our park to move and how they do so. Surely that should be the home constituents are aware of their rights and know major point to consider when it comes to reviewing the how to make their voices heard, but we as MPs need to effectiveness of any legislation or legislative change. respond. Annette Brooke: The 10% commission has wide-ranging We need a review that looks at the whole viability of impacts and they need to be considered. It is only now the industry and that listens both to site owners and to we are hearing about some of those impacts, as the park home owners. I do not prejudge the outcome of voices of park home owners grow louder. If we had a any review. It might conclude that the situation is best review, their input would be vital. left as it is, but with openness, fairness and transparency Given that the commission is an unpredictable income to ensure no bias either way, all parties will understand stream depending on how many units are resold over a the conclusions. period of time, the question remains of whether it is a Interestingly, I have looked at what has happened in windfall gain or an essential source of money for site the Welsh Assembly. Following a short debate in July 2014, improvements. It is very difficult to answer that question it agreed to review the data and evidence contained in without a review. the 2002 publication “Economics of the Park Homes The Mobile Homes Act 1975 limited the commission Industry” and the 2006-07 consultation. A review has to 15% and the Mobile Homes Act 1983 limited it to been undertaken and the Assembly awaits the report. 10%. Is it not time to have a proper independent review This month, the Minister for Communities and Tackling to establish whether the current situation is justified or Poverty wrote in a letter: whether there is a case for a change? I am absolutely “I feel a further review of the economics of the mobile homes sure there is a case for more transparency. business is necessary before a decision on amending the 10% commission rate can be considered. I do though feel the Mobile Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): I was delighted Homes (Wales) Act 2013 needs time to be embedded before a to support my right hon. Friend’s application for this further review is conducted. It is, therefore, my intention to debate. She knows that there are a number of park commission further research into the economics of the park homes in the north of my constituency. I thoroughly home industry and the implication of amending the commission endorse all the points she is making. Put simply, she is rate, in late spring 2015.” sensibly and correctly asking for a review—a very modest I do not think we should be embarrassed about following request—and I have noticed the shadow Secretary of the lead of one of the devolved nations. State, the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), nodding in agreement with some of her remarks. I would like to see the review process started shortly She is approaching the issue in a sensible way and I in England, with the setting of the terms of reference, hope the Minister, when he responds, will grant that the processes for looking at the economics of the industry review, which would be welcomed by all. and the commissioning of a study. Detailed consideration of the retention or alteration of the 10% could be Annette Brooke: I thank my hon. Friend and constituency dovetailed a few months later into a review of relevant neighbour for that intervention. Obviously, we are mutually aspects of the Mobile Homes Act 2013. aware of the issues that occur on the park home sites in I emphasise that I do not want unintended consequences Poole, Bournemouth and Dorset. that would increase burdens on vulnerable people on In 2012, the Communities and Local Government low incomes with increased pitch fees. I want a viable Committee concluded in favour of retaining the 10%, park home industry, but I also want to be sure the but did we have the review I am asking for? I do not system is fair to park home owners. The review process think we did, because the sequence of events shows that should start sooner rather than later. 481 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 482

2.49 pm money for any particular purpose, it is their property, and in my view an exceptional 10% charge requires an Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I congratulate the exceptional justification. right hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) on bringing this issue to the House’s Mobile home owners are clearly not people of significant attention once again. She has been a sterling campaigner means. Is there not a disconnect here? Is it not obvious, on it for many years, and we should congratulate her on as the hon. Gentleman has said, that there is a gap some of the successes and advances that have been between the interests of the owner of a site and those of made for our constituents in mobile homes, for whom the residents on it? The key point in the argument about the legislation has changed for the better. I want to the 10% levy is to ask why and for what purpose the place on the record my thanks to her. money is raised, and how it is allocated. There is such a lack of transparency. This issue affects many Members, and I know that quite a few of them cannot be in the Chamber today. They Everyone accepts that park home owners need a include my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough revenue stream to manage and service the park, which is South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop), who would the source of their livelihood. I accept the point made have liked to speak but is in a Public Bill Committee earlier that that may lead to a rise in site fees, but it is upstairs. done as part of a transparent process. Such transparency Today, I am here to represent the residents of Carter otherwise seems to be lacking at the moment, which is Hall park in Haslingden and Harwood Bar park in one of the key issues. Great Harwood in my constituency. Like residents in There are key concerns about the transparency of the park homes across the country, those in my constituency legally defined and arbitrarily set 10% fee. The residents are up in arms about the 10% point-of-sale fee that is in my constituency can see no evidence of how the still levied on static and mobile park homes sales. Much money that is taken is used to improve the park in which action has been taken in Parliament in the past few they live. I suggest that the Government look again at years that park home residents can be pleased about—the the fee, and explore ways in which to inject transparency right hon. Lady highlighted the gains that have been and confidence into the system. made—but the 10% levy, which is a source of much If the Government regard the fee simply as an income anger and frustration, still has not been addressed. stream that is guaranteed to the park owner regardless The reason park home residents are frustrated, if not of any service provided, that will come as a great angered, is that no other form of property ownership is disappointment and even a source of anger to my subject to this form of exit charge—set at an arbitrary constituents. In their view and mine, the revenue for level—at the point of sale. If a similar charge affected park owners can be taken only in exchange for services bungalow owners or those in terraced properties, I am provided. Residents need to be able to audit the fees, sure that the House would seek measures to redress and have confidence that they are properly used. such a matter. That point was raised by the hon. Member I reiterate that I completely understand that park for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), who is not now in her place. home owners need to have an income. However, sales Legally, park homes are mobile homes, but in reality are not constant and cannot be predicted year on year, they are permanent and stationary. Moreover, such park so the argument that fees are vital is shaky at best. I homes are my constituents’ primary residencies, and know that my constituents simply regard the fees as regulations need to take account of the fact that they greed. Indeed, they provide an incentive for park home cannot choose simply to up sticks and move to a park owners to encourage a churn of residents, because they home with a better contractual offer. My hon. Friend gain the 10% fee each and every time there is a transfer, the Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) made that and therefore become better off. The incentives in the point when he mentioned behavioural effects. process are a cause of deep concern. It is worrying that the single 10% fee is payable on each transfer of property, Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con): My because an accumulation of transfers leads to greater constituents’ feelings on this matter are very similar to wealth for the park home owner. It may also provide a those of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents. What makes disincentive for them to maintain the site, to look after it worse is when a park home owner has not helped their owners on the site and to have longer tenancies or investment in the park home to grow, because they then permanent residents. feel that they are being hit twice as hard. As I mentioned in relation to the right hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole, we have had huge Graham Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes a very success during this Parliament—I must say that that has good point. I will move on to transparency, which is been on a cross-party basis—in undoing some of the crucial, as is the contractual relationship between the historical unfairness for park home residents, and it is park home owner and the residents, tenants or owners vital that we continue in such a vein. Park home residents on the site. It is important to have transparency so that are well organised and have legitimate grievances. The people can see how their money has been allocated and issue of this 10% fee will not go away with well-meaning how it has been spent, because part of what they pay, words and expressions of understanding from the Dispatch via the park home owner, is for maintenance. That is Box. They need to have confidence in the fact that steps one of the missing elements in this debate. are being taken to address the lack of transparency with Many of my constituents who live in park homes are regard to the fees. elderly, and to lose 10% of the capital in their property My constituents simply want some confirmation that is a huge financial blow at a point in their life where the issue will not be allowed to go away, but that the they may be looking to fund their retirement or even Government will continue to address and consider it, their care. Frankly, even if they do not intend to use the and that there will at some point be some redress or a 483 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 484 change in legislation so that there is more transparency poor maintenance arrangements that prevail on some on the 10% anomaly and so that there are far clearer parks, introducing greater transparency in the process transactions between owners and residents, with people of paying utility bills and, above all else, tackling the understanding what they are getting into and able to problems of sale blocking and intimidation. Its research move from one site to another should they so choose, did not identify the 10% commission rate as a major rather than being stuck in a particular site because they problem that needed to be addressed as a matter of are bound by the 10% fee. priority.

Annette Brooke: I congratulate my hon. Friend again 2.57 pm on the Mobile Homes Act 2013, which addresses the Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I am grateful to my very worst problems, but there is still a lot to be done. right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and Does he not agree that we should look at the issues that North Poole (Annette Brooke) for securing this debate. concern park home owners in a balanced and unbiased I am very much aware of the significant amount of way? work that she does for park home owners, for whom she is very much a champion. It is right for the House Peter Aldous: I agree with my hon. Friend that there regularly to consider issues that the park home sector is an awful lot of work to be done in the sector. As I faces, and this debate provides us with such an opportunity. complete my remarks, she will see that I do not think The background to this debate is that my right hon. that now is the right time to look at this one issue in Friend’s constituent Sonia McColl—she runs the Park isolation. The 2013 Act was one of the biggest changes Home Owners Justice Campaign and is likewise a stalwart in the sector in 30 years. I think that it needs to bed champion for park home owners—has delivered a petition down and that we should then carry out a full review. of more than 31,000 signatures that calls for a debate on I have learned a great deal about the sector in the past reviewing the 10% commission. I have considered the two and a half years. One message that I have very motion carefully. Although I welcome this debate and much taken on board is the importance of achieving an understand the reasons and sentiments behind the motion, equilibrium—a balance whereby park home owners can I am not able to support it. I shall explain why briefly. enjoy a high standard of living, a peaceful environment As has been said, I had the good fortune to pilot the and quiet enjoyment, while responsible site owners can Mobile Homes Act 2013 through the House. It was a manage their parks efficiently and properly, and make a privilege to do so and I pay tribute to the other Members reasonable living and a return on their investment. In who had campaigned for many years beforehand, including the feedback that I have received from responsible and my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and good park home owners in my constituency, the concern North Poole, my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch has been expressed that if the 10% commission were (Mr Chope), the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire removed, that equilibrium would be lost. (Natascha Engel), my hon. Friend the Member for Given that there are fewer opportunities for new Winchester (Steve Brine), my hon. and learned Friend developments on sites and that the lifespan of homes is the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) and the increasing, site owners are very reliant on pitch fees and hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), as well as sale commissions for their income. The majority of Lord Graham of Edmonton and Lord Best. their income is derived from pitch fees—the figure of The 2013 Act addresses the appalling practices that 70% has been mentioned to me—with sales commission have emerged in the sector in recent years, such as park providing much of the remainder. In many cases, the home owners being bullied, intimidated and driven out income from sales is the difference between profit and of their homes by a minority of owners who are, in loss. I have seen figures to confirm that. Changing the effect, gangsters. It also puts in place a framework 10% commission rate might therefore lead to some under which park home sites can be better managed in a businesses becoming financially non-viable. That could more transparent way. result in cuts being made in the management of parks, with less money being spent on investment in infrastructure In presenting the Bill, I was fortunate that a great such as roadways, footpaths and communal areas. The deal of research had been done on the way the sector result could be that parks take on a more run-down, worked, identifying the problems that needed to be down-at-heel appearance, which would have a negative addressed and coming up with solutions. In many respects, knock-on effect on the value of the homes. the cornerstone on which the 2013 Act was built was the report on park homes by the Communities and Local Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Government Committee that was published in June My hon. Friend speaks with authority, given his long-term 2012. The Committee considered the 10% commission commitment to this matter. However, I take issue with on sales and heard evidence on the matter. It concluded his point on the deterioration of standards. Is not the that the right of site owners to receive up to 10% issue the bundling of costs? As a fellow Conservative, I commission from the sale of park homes should remain. would have thought that he would be concerned at the The same conclusion had been reached by the previous bundling of costs into an overall price, which means Government as a result of their 2006 consultation on that the sale price and the 10% commission do not park home commission rates. reflect the services that are being offered. The review I am mindful of the findings of the research carried will deliver greater transparency on what services are out by Consumer Focus, which was published in its being offered, what the price of those services is and report, “Living the dream? An investigation into life on what competition might be introduced in respect of park home sites in England”, in October 2012. It concluded those services, so that there is not just an overall 10% that the issues that needed to be addressed as a priority figure that may or may not have a bearing on what the were improving local authority licensing, addressing the park owner is delivering. 485 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 486

Peter Aldous: In the fullness of time we need to should be reviewed, including the commission rate. I consider the whole way the industry operates, but if we believe that is the right way to consider this matter, not rush in haste to take away this income stream, there is a on its own ahead of that comprehensive review. danger that we may affect viability and cause problems Those are my findings on this situation, and as I said, on good parks. we must seek to maintain an equilibrium and ensure Research undertaken under the previous Government that responsible site owners get a fair return. When in 2002 by Berkeley Hanover Consulting was considered introducing the Bill it was important to maintain by the Communities and Local Government Committee understanding and consensus on all sides, but I fear in 2012, and viewed as still being valid. It suggested that that we are perhaps in danger of losing that consensus. if the 10% commission was abolished, pitch fees would That is the basis on which I hope we can proceed. rise by 20% to 32%, which could impact on the attractiveness of the sector. In summary, there is a legitimate worry 3.9 pm that changing the rate of commission could have unintended consequences. It could lead to higher pitch fees, which would Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I add in effect be robbing Peter to pay Paul. At worst, it could my thanks to those of other hon. Members to the many lead to a significant decline in the standard of parks, campaigners who have gone before us in the previous and their maintenance, state of repair and appearance. three decades—at least—who have sought justice for people who live on park home sites. I thank Lord Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Would an increase Graham of Edmonton, who has done so much work on in fees be fairer than a 10% cut when someone is trying park homes over many years. The right hon. Member to sell? It seems to me a fairer proposition. for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) has led the charge for many years and I thank her for her Peter Aldous: I certainly take that on board. work. We have got to know her heroic constituent, Sonia McColl, extremely well. She has become the park The Mobile Homes Act was the biggest shake-up in home owners’ agony aunt, answering e-mails and phone the park homes sector for 30 years, and it will take a few calls into the night, dealing with some very distressed years to settle down and be implemented fully, properly individuals. She also set up the Park Home Owners and effectively. The feedback I have received is that the Justice Campaign. She has done magnificent work. legislation is providing local authorities with the means of working with park home owners to bring rogue site I thank my predecessor, Harry Barnes, who led the owners to account, ensure that parks are properly managed campaign in the 18 years he was in the House before me. and run, and ultimately to drive those bad apples out of Many of the people who live in North East Derbyshire’s the sector. park home sites would like to thank him. Most of all, I thank all the tireless campaigners in the eight park There remains much work to be done to make the home sites in North East Derbyshire. Hundreds of new sale process work better. On good, well-run sites, in people live in the park home sites in Riverdale, Millfield, the past home owners have relied on responsible site Brookfield, Ponderosa, Sunningdale, Poplar Drive, owners—the good apples—to do much of the work for Grasscroft and Bramley. them when it came to selling their homes. Now that site owners have been removed from the sale process there is The 2011 census showed that something like 160,000 a vacuum to fill, and I am afraid that the legal, conveyancing people lived in 84,000 park homes in about 2,000 UK and estate agency professions are not coming forward sites. Those figures might be out of date, but more quickly enough to fill that void. That problem needs to people and not fewer live in park homes. Most park be addressed now. home sites have a rule that people must be 50 or over to live there. Therefore, by their nature, they are places Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): The where people go when they have sold up in order to live hon. Gentleman mentions estate agents. A 10% charge off the money they have released from their homes. is taken by the site owner, but residents also pay estate They are on low incomes, and they tend to be elderly agent fees, so that is one injustice. This measure is not and vulnerable. They live in isolated areas, because the being done in haste; as he said, this is 30 years in the sites are on the edges of communities. As the right hon. making. His Bill was important because it dealt with Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole said, many of the most serious injustices, but it left out the 10% them are very frightened. commission because it was so complicated and contentious. Why is the hon. Gentleman fighting against a review? Stephen Barclay: I concur with that. Is not a further We are asking to look at all aspects of the 10% commission, problem that those people cannot possibly have an idea specifically in a review. Why is he so hesitant to have what the charge will be, because, by nature, it will be such a review and consider those aspects? decided in future? They will not know what the sale price is, and therefore even an informed consumer cannot Peter Aldous: I am not opposed to a review, as I will consent to it. say when summing up my remarks, but it is about the timing of that review and the way it takes place. I understand Natascha Engel: That is a key element, and the Park —I would be grateful if the Minister confirmed this Home Owners Justice Campaign group has made exactly when he sums up the debate—that the Department that point. How can the charge be such a fundamental intends to carry out a comprehensive review of the part of the necessary profits of site owners—it is necessary sector in 2016, three years after the Mobile Homes Act according to the site owners—if they cannot say when received Royal Assent. One of the main tasks in that the profits will come? I will go into more detail on that. review will be to assess whether the fit and proper persons Hon. Members are enormously grateful to the hon. test should be applied to those seeking to manage parks, Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) for promoting as a and I suggest that at the same time the whole sector private Member’s Bill what became the Mobile Homes 487 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 488

Act 2013. It has and will make a huge difference. The Peter Aldous: The image that the hon. Lady is portraying Act is bedding down. He is very lucky to have so many is the view I have of the one bad park home site in my good apples as site owners in his constituency. All the constituency. Does she not agree that the Mobile Homes bad ones have come to mine. As a result of the Act and Act 2013 provides the means to address the problem? other legislation, the intimidation has stepped up a level. As campaigning MPs, we need to ensure the Natascha Engel: We hope it will address the problem. involvement of the local authorities. One of the really big issues previously was that there I do not recognise the picture the hon. Gentleman was nobody to enforce the licence unless it was a matter paints. I understand the importance of consensus, and for the police, in which case it was a criminal matter and as hon. Members have said, we do not want to deny out of everybody’s hands anyway. We hope it will be a park home site owners a good living. They have a very very important change, but certainly in North East good living at the moment. All we are fighting for is Derbyshire the legislation needs to settle down. The justice. The 10% commission is a fundamental injustice 10% flat rate seems enormously unfair when site owners in the sector and I will go into detail to explain why. are saying it is absolutely essential for the maintenance of the park and no work is ever done. On the contrary, The 10% commission is a flat fee. It was initially residents are doing all the work and having to pay out intended as a maximum commission, but it is a flat fee for everything. of 10% no matter the value of the home, how long somebody has lived there, and what improvements people Bob Stewart: This is the first I have learned of the have made to their homes. The homes in my constituency problem. I have listened to the debate and I am absolutely are absolutely beautiful. There is a reason why the appalled. The 10% fee sounds like daylight robbery. It is report mentioned by the hon. Member for Waveney is fair to charge a rent for a pitch; it is grossly unfair to called “Living the Dream”. It is absolutely idyllic living charge 10% for nothing. It is robbery. on a park home site with like-minded people. It is quiet and beautiful and on the edge of beautiful countryside. Natascha Engel: Absolutely; in fact Rick and Bill, It should be absolute heaven in retirement, but from one of the park home sites in North East Derbyshire, improvements are paid for and done at great cost to the made a T-shirt with “Daylight Robbery” on it, which is people who live there, not to the site owners themselves. selling like hot cakes. It is a funny point, but about The biggest reason the site owners give, as the hon. something serious. This is daylight robbery from people Member for Waveney said, is profit margin. With the who cannot afford it. That is the really awful aspect. It profit margin, 70% comes from pitch fees and 30%, as is exactly as the hon. Gentleman describes: it feels such the right hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole a terrible injustice that people pay out and get absolutely mentioned, is from income that is not secured—residents nothing in return. do not know when it is coming. They are told that it is I have mentioned this before in a debate, but it is also an essential revenue stream for the maintenance of park interesting to remember that when park home sites first home sites. I can hear almost every single one of the 600 started, the type of people who owned them had a residents in North East Derbyshire sighing and saying, social conscience. Part of the reason why utilities are “If only”. On the sites we go around, there are loose bought in bulk now is that the site owners used to do cables and tree roots growing into water pipes that are that and then pass on the savings to the residents. Now not being repaired. Massive costs are incurred where the absolute reverse is true, certainly in many of the there are leakages. As we all know, utility bills are sites in my constituency, where although utilities are collected on the whole of the site—there is one bundled-up bought in bulk, everything is completely un-transparent. price. Therefore, if the site owner does nothing about No one can see what they have used or how much the burst pipes, it is the residents who pay. money is being charged, and the site owners tend to add a little administration fee, on top of the pitch fees, on Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Does the hon. which a lot of them are making a disgusting amount of Lady agree that there are numerous examples—certainly profit. That really should not be allowed, and it is also on pitches in my constituency and probably on those in something that should be taken into the calculations. the constituencies of other hon. Members—of site landlords As we have said before, what we are asking for is very simply refusing to act? They are challenged; something reasonable: a review of just one thing that was not is pointed out to them but they simply do nothing. included in the private Member’s Bill of the hon. Member for Waveney. That would also be an opportunity for those who disagree with us to make their case. The most Natascha Engel: Yes, and I go back to the point about interesting thing in the speech by the right hon. Member the type of residents. There are some brilliant campaigners, for Mid Dorset and North Poole was the fact that the but all of them are very elderly. What can they do if a evidence relied on, certainly in the consultation for the site owner is never to be seen, especially when there is private Member’s Bill and under the Labour Government, work to be done and something has to happen? They is from previous research that has never really been are either left to do it themselves—a lot of people are updated. As the sector is now much more organised, the just not able to do it themselves—or they have to live people taking part in consultations are ever increasing with the fact that there are lots of dangerous things in number and, thanks to Sonia McColl, have a proper lying around and things are just not sorted out. focal point. I therefore urge the Minister and the shadow We hope that enforcement on the part of the local Minister—the Minister in what I hope will be an incoming authority can now happen, but it is very difficult to do Labour Government—to commit to having a review, in practice if a park home site owner is reluctant to do simply in recognition of the fact that there is a problem. anything because it costs them money and bites into It is not a problem for the site owners, but it is for those their profits. who live on the sites. 489 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 490

[Natascha Engel] The review should look at another problem about which residents have written to me. On one park, an elderly Transparency and clarity are enormously important. resident had gone into a care home before she sold her Under the last Labour Government, a regulation was home. We need to note that none of my constituents proposed to make any changes clearer and to require were happy for me to use their names. They wanted to site owners to be clear to those buying park homes that remain anonymous because they are absolutely terrified they would face not only pitch fees and utilities bills but of the consequences that might follow from their site the 10% charge at the end their time. That should have owners. I would like the Minister to listen to this letter, been a requirement, but unfortunately it was never as it reveals a really serious problem. It states: implemented. It is all there in the Department; perhaps “In respect of the new Mobile Homes Act 2013 particularly on that regulation needs to be brushed down, so that we the sale of homes, it appears that problems are occurring on can have a look at it before the general election. properties that are for sale and empty due to either the home As I have said, we do not want to deny site owners a owners moving to another property or into a nursing home. Although the ground rent is continuing to be paid, our site owner living; it is just that, certainly from anecdotal evidence is claiming that if the property is empty then the home owner is and the kinds of cars they drive, we can make quite a breaking the law within the implied term which states that the safe assumption that the profits they are making, on the home must be kept in a sound state of repair and must be the sole backs of vulnerable people, are extremely high. Therefore, residence of the occupier. It appears that our site owner then it is reasonable for us to have another look at this sends a solicitors letter to that effect to the seller and also sends extortionate commission of 10%. The right hon. Member out surveyors to check the exterior of the property who obviously for Mid Dorset and North Poole mentioned this, but it find many major defaults and state the property is not worth anything! This then means that any prospective purchaser cannot would also be a good idea for the review to look at purchase the property because it is in the hands of the site owners minimum maintenance standards on site, so that if solicitors pending court action!” people are paying 10%, the site owner has to commit in That was not the first time I had heard about that return to maintenance up to a certain standard and problem, which relates to the wider context of the 10% within a certain timeframe. That would go some way to commission issue. We really must have a proper and addressing the injustice that people feel. We could look careful look at this. One positive consequence of setting at that in the review, and there would then at least be a up an independent review is that many such examples, proper justification for the site owners to take that 10%. which I have become aware of only recently, would be At the moment, it is daylight robbery; people are getting brought to our attention. Many of these real injustices, nothing in return for it. which simply would not be tolerated for homes of It was interesting to hear about park home sites that bricks and mortar, could be highlighted. That would be were council-owned. Bramley Park site in my constituency most useful. used to be council-owned and is now in private ownership. It does not charge the minimum 10%. The same owner I hope that when the Minister and the shadow Minister charges the 10% at another park site in the constituency, wind up the debate, they will commit to setting up a but he seems to manage perfectly well without charging review and will ensure that the review is independent. it on the former council-owned site. Perhaps we could We would very much like to help out with the review, look further into that in the review and assess the profit but what is most important is for it to be independent of consequences to a park home site owner if the 10% not just site owners, but any other pressure groups. We commission were to be abolished. must ensure that its findings are regarded by everyone as fair and justified. It is high time that we updated Some people think of these mobile homes as caravans, what is, by now, quite ancient research. but they are not mobile; they are entirely static. As mentioned earlier, there is one set of rules for people Notwithstanding what was said by the hon. Member who live in bricks-and-mortar homes, and a different for Waveney, I think that time is of the essence. One of set of rules for these static caravans. Yet these are the tragic aspects of this issue is that many people have people’s homes; it is where they live. It is where many of died since I started the campaign: they have died waiting. them will live for the rest of their lives. Some have quite Many of those who are alive are elderly, and time is a high value. Some of these homes go for between clearly of the essence for them. This is an injustice that £150,000 and £200,000—often reflecting how beautiful needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later. they are. We are not talking about peanuts. It is unfortunate that many of the changes for which we have been lobbying have got lost between general Annette Brooke: When the commission first began to elections. I should dearly love to see a review set up now, be charged, we were talking about home prices of with a definite timeline and involving cross-Bench consensus, between £10,000 and £20,000, yet now we are up into so that we can ensure that something happens, and the realms of £250,000 for a new park home, and even happens very quickly. I should be very grateful if the trading prices can be at least £150,000. These are very Front Benchers would be specific about whether there large sums of money, yet we do not know exactly what will be a review, how independent such a review will be, the commission is used for. and, above all, what the timeline will be.

Natascha Engel: That is an important intervention. 3.31 pm One of my constituents has written: “Under the new rules a Site owner has no dealings with the sale Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): It is a pleasure to of properties, not even to notify the provider of essential follow the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire services…Water, electricity etc. We do that. All he has to do is get (Natascha Engel), and, indeed, all who have spoken so his secretary to delete one name and enter another. A huge far. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for commission for a two minute job.” Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) on I think that rather makes the hon. Lady’s point. instigating the debate, and on making such a powerful 491 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 492 case. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member on the Government and Opposition Front Benches will for Waveney (Peter Aldous) on all the tremendous work concur with that view, as the hon. Member for North that he has done in piloting his Bill through the House. East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) requested, because I will not repeat the arguments that have been advanced many people living in those homes are coming to the so powerfully this afternoon. I will, however, quote end of their lives and a solution needs to be found. briefly from an e-mail that I received from a constituent Transparency is what we need. who lives in Lodgefield park in my constituency. He writes: 3.36 pm “Home owners are having great difficulty in selling partly because of the 10% which in effect makes their homes over-priced Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I apologise for on the market. This means that owners are trapped in their homes coming late to the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker. I and unable to move unless they drop the price to a level where had to deal with an urgent constituency matter, and I they are unable to purchase anywhere else.” want to put on record my apologies to you and to the He also makes the interesting point that if home owners previous Deputy Speaker. are selling to fund care, the state, if they come to rely on My right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset it, will lose quite a large sum through the 10% commission. and North Poole (Annette Brooke) has been a doughty That point may be tangential, but I think that the campaigner on this issue for many years and I congratulate Government should bear it in mind none the less, given her on securing this debate. I am also grateful to my that in such cases there will ultimately be a cost to the hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) Treasury. for introducing his private Member’s Bill. It took 30 years The only other point that I want to make concerns to enact legislation on this matter, and I should like to transparency, to which many Members have referred. express my tremendous appreciation to him for enabling There are three elements of the income that comes to that to happen during his first term in the House. It is park home site owners. First, there is the income to cover also a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member their current costs, the year-by-year costs of maintaining for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) as I agree with all he said the park. Secondly, there is the income to cover capital about transparency. The hon. Member for North East improvements to the site. That is very important, not Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) passionately evoked the least to those who live in park homes, because they issues. want to see improvements to their properties which will I have mobile home owners in my constituency. I increase their value. Finally, quite rightly, there is a supported them as best I could as a candidate before I surplus or profit element. was elected, and it was then that I came across their Every Member who has spoken has acknowledged astonishing lack of power over their own homes. It was that site owners have a right to see a return on their absolutely incredible. As the hon. Member for North investment, but I, like others, would like to see more East Derbyshire said, these homes are not caravans; transparency. We are told that the commission is needed some of them are absolutely amazing. They are meticulously because, without it, pitch fees would rise substantially—by kept, with beautiful carpets, for example. They are 20% to 30%, or even more. I am not sure that I entirely beautiful homes. understand that. The corollary is that, in a year in which Significantly, the vast majority of the mobile home a number of homes have been sold in a park, the site owners are elderly. Having discovered the lack of power owner would be expected to say “We can reduce pitch that they had, I then discovered the astonishing influence fees this year”, or “We will not apply for an increase, and sheer maliciousness of some park home landlords. because we have received so much income from the 10% I simply could not believe it. As a naive young—or commission.” I have yet to hear of such instances. perhaps middle-aged—candidate, I went to the council, There may have been some, but they have not been but I was told, “Stephen, what can we do? We don’t brought to my attention. have the power to do much about this.” That is how I I agree with what was said earlier by my hon. Friend first learned about the process. I have been a close the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen colleague of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Barclay). We need to see an unbundling—a transparency Dorset and North Poole for many years, and under her —in regard to both revenue and capital costs. Those guidance I have since learned a lot more about the who live in park homes would then be able to see clearly iniquities of the system. what had been spent on maintenance and on capital On behalf of my constituents, I am particularly grateful improvements, and what remained as a surplus. I am to my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney for his private sure they would welcome that information being made Member’s Bill. I hear his suggestion that we allow it to clearly visible, because these matters have an impact on bed down for a few years, and that we should perhaps their quality of life and on the capital value of their step back and take a little heat out of the process so that home. we can see how it is working—I have tremendous respect Such transparency would take a lot of the heat out of for my hon. Friend, with whom I have worked in the debate. For example, people would be able to see a number of cross-party contexts—but I disagree with that there might be cases in which a fee of 10% was him on that point. I will tell him why. reasonable in a particular year, just as a fee of 0% might If I were to sell my house tomorrow, I would be be appropriate at other times. There could also be a charged between 1% and 2%. Estate agents’ rates are strong case for transferring most of the cost to annual very competitive at the moment. The last time I sold a fees, or for introducing a mixture of a capital fee and a house, it was valued at about £230,000, so a fee of 2% revenue fee. This is the opportune time for the review would have been a couple of thousand pounds. If I had that my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset been selling a mobile home, however, it would have cost and North Poole has proposed, and I hope that those me £25,000—£2,300 in estate agent fees, plus an extra 493 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 494

[Stephen Lloyd] I want to pay tribute to the Minister there, the Under- Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, £23,000. I would have been paying that to the landlord the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), or leasholder, and that is mind-blowing. That would not who has allowed me to come here, and to the Labour be so bad if I had tarmac that was always swept and Whip, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South looked after, lights that were kept on and repaired and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), who is holding the whenever they were broken, bushes and shrubbery that fort at the moment. However, my constituents come was cut and a landlord who treated me and all the other first when I am dealing with matters in this place, which park home owners with respect. I would still resent it, is why I wanted to contribute in this debate. but I would probably manage my resentment. However, I am pleased that the Backbench Business Committee if I was treated with the absolute contempt with which, considered this matter to be worthy of debate. I pay as I have discovered over the years, some, but not all, tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for North East park home leaseholder owners treat their tenants or Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) for her work and her mobile home owners, it would go beyond what my hon. strong interest in this matter and to the right hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) described Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole for pursuing as “daylight robbery”; it is theft. If the wider world her case so professionally and with such tenacity. knew that this was common practice and estate agents, who are not popular at the best of times for charging I wish to make representations on behalf of my 2%, were getting 10% on top of that, it would just be constituents who live in Elmtree Park, which is close to unacceptable. Why has it gone on for 30 years? It is the coast at Seaton Carew in my constituency. Comprising because this is a small sector; it is a niche. Sadly, before 100 park homes, the site caters for people without the involvement of the doughty Sonia from the constituency children who are over the age of 50, and it has a vibrant of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset community life. Indeed, it is a great community, and the and North Poole (Annette Brooke) and the other amazing people who live on that park are its greatest assets. It is people who brought this practice to our attention and always a pleasure for me to visit the residents, eat their to that of the public, it went on for many years. Not scones, drink their coffee and discuss matters relating to only were people treated very badly, but they were the ownership of their homes. losing a fortune. It is disgraceful. It is clear, from speaking to the residents of Elmtree So where are we at? The Welsh recognise that the Park over many years and from my time as a Department review needs to happen sooner rather than later, so they for Communities and Local Government Minister with are going through the process right now. What I say to responsibility for park homes, that the current business both Front Benchers is that this is a cross-party issue; model is broken, as it provides far too much power to there is no problem here. I pay tribute to some of my site owners at the expense of park home owners. Although colleagues who have been pushing this issue for years. there are many good site owners who invest for the long We all now understand that the current situation is term and who want a good and mutually beneficial wrong and it is time that we did something about it. The relationship with residents, far too often the sector sees review should be independent, involving actuarial specialists malpractice, a lack of investment, poor if any maintenance and estate agents and so on. People who really understand and unscrupulous and often criminal site owners who this sector should, independently, have an input to the are content to make a fast buck and fleece residents. review and come up with a number of recommendations. Time and again I hear of unfair fees that are opaque They may well say, “Actually, we should keep a commission and subject to no challenge, poor maintenance of the because of the uniqueness of park homes. Let’s make it land and site owners either making it difficult for home 5%, but for that you get X,Y and Z. You get the lawns owners to sell their homes or hounding people out so cut and you are looked after. It is a service rate, like the that they can consolidate pitches. Either way, the owners one that people pay in an apartment block. If you don’t often take a whopping profit when park homes are sold. meet that service rate, there are penalties.” This is not During my time as Minister, I was particularly keen difficult, it can be done and there is a cross-party to reform the licensing regime to ensure that we incentivised consensus. The first step is to have the review, with the good park home site owners and punished the bad, robust independent lay people on it, plus specialists and to the point of driving them from the industry. I wanted representatives from each of the areas. It will then come to push the concept of fit and proper persons for site up with recommendations, and I am as certain as I can owners so that the sector encouraged responsible owners, ever be that once the recommendations are made, be it good behaviour and good conduct, and to ensure that under the coalition Government or whoever the this responsibility was reinforced through effective Government are after the general election, there will be regulation. I also wanted to make the fee regime transparent, a consensus in the House and they will be passed so that park home owners knew precisely what they quickly. I hope to receive that commitment from both were paying for. I also wanted them to have the opportunity Front Benchers at the end of this debate. to negotiate and discuss the fee with the site owner before it was finalised. It is the fee regime that most concerns my constituents 3.43 pm on Elmtree Park. A balance needs to be struck between Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): May I begin, allowing site owners to raise enough revenue to maintain Madam Deputy Speaker, by apologising to you, to the the site, provide amenities and produce a reasonable right hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole return while, at the same time, protecting residents from (Annette Brooke) and to the House for not being present unfair costs. As a Minister and a constituency MP, I for most of the debate? I have been in Committee have always been struck by the lack of consensus on considering the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment whether the 10% commission on sales should be reduced. Bill and have just hot-footed it from Committee Room 10. Some people see their park homes as homes for life and 495 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 496 so would rather see a reduced annual pitch fee than a I was keen, on behalf of the residents of Elmtree and reduction in the commission on sales; conversely, others others throughout the country, to ensure that they would like to ensure that the commission was reduced received fairness as part of a well-functioning park or even eliminated, maximising their income on any sale. homes sector. That 10% commission now needs to be Despite the lack of consensus, it is clear that too much driven down as much as possible, if not eliminated. power lies in the hands of the site owner, at the expense Greater transparency on fees needs to be considered as of the park home resident. The current regime allows part of that wider regime. I hope that the Minister will for site owners to benefit twice from any sale, which is reflect on that and wish to advance those aims on behalf very wrong. It allows them to coerce a park home of park home owners everywhere. owner, through fear and intimidation, to sell their home to them for a reduced price—the so-called site blocking. 3.52 pm The site owner collects 10% on that sale. He or she can Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): I congratulate the then bundle up sites or sell the home, often at a huge right hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole profit. All the upside and none of the risk is with the (Annette Brooke) and other Members who have secured site owner and that cannot be fair. today’s debate. The right hon. Lady deserves particular recognition for her long-standing and determined campaign Peter Aldous: The hon. Gentleman is making a passionate on behalf of 165,000 park home owners and residents speech with which I wholeheartedly agree. However, to secure better protection for them. It is a cause that does the Mobile Home Act 2013 not provide local has attracted a number of contributions from Members authorities and park home owners with the ability to who have park homes in their constituencies. stop those problems? The basic principle is that park home owners deserve just as much protection as other home owners. That is Mr Wright: I understand where the hon. Gentleman why the progress that has been made during the past is coming from, but my main point is to do with that decade or so, including, I freely acknowledge, under this 10% commission on sales as part of the overall fee Government, to provide greater protection for park regime. With his permission, I will elaborate on that, as home owners has been so important. The last Labour it is an incredibly important matter. Forgive me, Madam Government established a park homes working group Deputy Speaker, for not being here at the start of the in 1998, and its recommendations led to not all but debate when this issue must have been touched on time many of the shortcomings being tackled in the Housing and again. I am keen to push the idea that the fee Act 2004. Further proposals to amend the law were set regime should be as transparent as possible. out in 2005 and implemented later that year, and in I want to preserve the unique character of park May 2009, further consultation was published on options homes that attracts older owners to want to live there. for improving the management of park home sites. In many respects, therefore, there is possibly an argument Significant progress has been made in this Parliament, that the site owner should be able to vet potential and I pay tribute, as have many other hon. Members, to buyers. However, it cannot be right that the home the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) for his owner is unable to sell his or her asset, in most cases the Mobile Homes Act, which was put on the statute book biggest asset they have, without first seeking approval in 2013. As he would acknowledge, it drew on the work from the site owner and then paying 10% for the privilege of the Communities and Local Government Committee of doing so. I cannot see how that is fair at all. and it had cross-party support. It is worth reminding ourselves that the reason for that was the injustices that Stephen Lloyd: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it were so clearly rife in the sector, as we have heard today, is almost feudal to expect park home owners to go and that still continue in some places to this day. It through that process? reformed the licensing regime that applied to park home sites, it removed the ability of unscrupulous operators Mr Wright: I came into the debate during the hon. to try to block lawful sales by residents of their homes, Gentleman’s excellent contribution, and I agree with and it ensured that pitch fee increases were transparent. him. I was going to touch on that. He used the word It also included provision for the Government, should “feudal”; I have the word “archaic”. It is so old-fashioned they so wish, to introduce a fit and proper person test in the 21st century, and not appropriate these days. We through legislation. As I think we have heard, the need to ensure that the balance of risk and reward is reputable park home site owners, apart from anybody pushed more firmly towards home owners than site else, deserve not to have their reputation undermined or owners. That is why the Government should look again damaged by the rogues—the word “gangsters” was at the 10% commission on sales, as part of the wider used—who sometimes act shamefully towards their review of all costs and fees relating to park homes. I residents. We have made real progress. really liked what the hon. Gentleman was saying as I Today we have focused on the question of the 10% came into the Chamber, which was about ensuring that commission payable to the site owner on sale of a park any commission was linked to proper clarity on maintenance home. I want to explore the arguments that have been and improvement of homes. At the moment, we do not made today, and in the previous studies, on that question. have that relationship, so the costs of maintaining and On the one hand, it is forcefully argued by mobile home improving sites and how that will be paid for are not owners that the site owner does nothing, in effect, to clearly stated and understood. The hon. Gentleman earn the commission, so they do not see why they was absolutely right, and I would like to see that. should be paid it. As we have heard—this point was There are long-standing problems within the sector, made most forcefully by my hon. Friend the Member and, as I have said, far too often the balance of power for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel)—when tilts away from the home owner. When I was in office, residents have spent their own money on improving 497 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 498

[Hilary Benn] see a cost summary and then the underlying documents. However, park homes were not included in that legislation, their home, and therefore its value, it is particularly which was introduced some years ago, and I simply do galling to see 10% of the increased value paid to someone not think that can be right. Why should park home else for work that they have not funded. owners not be able to see where the money they have On the other hand, the argument has been made—we paid goes and what it is being spent on? That is a matter have to acknowledge it—that the income from commission of principle if a fee is being paid to someone else, who is part of the income that site owners depend on, along may or may not be providing the services in return. It with pitch fees and the sale of new mobile homes to new would also help us answer the question raised in the owners coming to the site, and that it is therefore argument made by site owners—that if they do not have important for making their business viable. Were the commission income, they will not be able to continue rate of commission to drop or disappear—the right operating sites as viable entities. hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole was My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) perfectly frank in acknowledging this argument—would made a point about the business model, and that is there need to be an increase in pitch fees to compensate? important. If someone is not entirely sure how many There have been other changes that I strongly welcome. homes are going to be sold, how can they hope to run For example, commission can no longer be applied to their business, which is dependent on something they the gift of a mobile home to someone else. The previous do not control? With pitch fees, of course, there is control. Labour Government looked at this matter, as we have We recognise that there is a balance to be struck. The heard. Reference has been made to the research carried hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) described out by Berkeley Hanover Consulting, which concluded one possible option: that of lowering fees. Others have at the time—I acknowledge that it was 12 year ago, as argued for their removal. the right hon. Lady argued clearly and forcefully—that There seems to be a consensus across the House in pitch fees would rise significantly if the commission favour of a review. As the right hon. Member for Mid paid to site owners was reduced. It argued that pitch Dorset and North Poole made clear, a review would not fees could increase by about a third as a result. say, “We’ve reached a decision about the sensible thing Indeed, when the Communities and Local Government to do.” There is a very strong feeling on the part of Committee looked at that recently, it pointed to the case home owners that the 10% commission is unfair. We of a residents association that was offered a reduction could ask them whether they would be able to cope with in commission in return for an increase in pitch fees. It higher pitch fees if the commission disappeared; people was reported to the Committee that one in 100 of the will have to express a view. I think it would be sensible residents so approached agreed to such a move. The to have a review. As I understand it, the only issue Committee’s report also pointed to the previous across the House is its timing. I hope that the Minister Government’s consultation in 2006. We have to acknowledge will be able to enlighten us on that. that it would be in the interests of some residents to I conclude by congratulating the right hon. Lady on move in the direction of the commission disappearing, bringing this debate to the House. I hope that the but others would prefer the status quo. Government will respond sympathetically to her points The difference is this: those who favoured a reduction and those of other Members. in, or abolition of, the commission rate accepted that it might well result in a higher pitch fee. The residents who intended to sell their home at some point in the future 4.1 pm thought, “Well, that’s okay.” However, the residents for The Minister of State, Department for Communities whom that will be their home for the rest of their lives and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): I congratulate were, understandably, much more anxious about an my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and increase in their pitch fee, because they could be paying North Poole (Annette Brooke) on securing this debate it for a long time. on an important issue. As others have said, she has With people’s budgets already stretched, and as many worked hard for many years for residents in park homes of the people who live in park homes are on low incomes, across the country. I represent Great Yarmouth, where as we have heard, I think that that is a reasonable there are a large number of park home owners, so I consideration to take into account. In that sense, would appreciate the importance of the issue. I was delighted we want to take a step that might result in people facing that one of my first appearances at the Dispatch Box as fees that they would find difficult to pay? There is a Minister back in October 2012 was to respond to my genuinely a balance to be struck, and we have to consider constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member that. for Waveney (Peter Aldous), during the debate on his One of the ways we could help to answer that question— Mobile Homes Bill. Both Members have campaigned there has been strong consensus on this point—is by tirelessly for better protection for park home owners. having greater transparency. It is self-evident. The right My right hon. Friend was instrumental in securing the hon. Lady made that point at the start of the debate, passage of my hon. Friend’s Bill, which is now the and it has also been made by my hon. Friend the Mobile Homes Act 2013. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) and the hon. Members feel strongly about this issue. The hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy). Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) has whizzed his Let us look at the example of leaseholders. Where way here from his Bill Committee, where other Committee service charges are levied for works that the freeholder members will be missing him as we speak. I do not of the building undertakes, whether cutting the grass, intend to keep him for too long. He joins a number of cleaning or external painting, they have a right under Members who have campaigned hard for years—not legislation—the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, I think—to just me and the others here today, but my hon. Friend 499 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 500 the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths), who has also procedures when selling their homes. This may not be in been in a Bill Committee; I have spoken to him about any way deliberate—I would imagine that in most cases the issue a number of times. My hon. Friend the Member it is not—but if a sale goes through that does not comply for York Outer (Julian Sturdy) has lobbied me regularly, with the law, there could be grave consequences for the although he is unable to speak today from his position seller and the purchaser. This is why we have constantly just behind me in the Chamber. You, Madam Deputy urged, and continue to urge, that parties to the sale of a Speaker, have campaigned on behalf of residents in park home obtain professional advice, as almost everyone Epping Forest. This has also been a strong issue for buying or selling any home would do, and as we would other Members across the House who want to make encourage them to do. sure that residents are protected and can feel confident On the payment of commission, although the 2013 Act about their rights and ability to look after their homes, did not, for reasons I shall explain, change the maximum for themselves and their families. amount payable, it did make significant changes to how The hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) it is paid to the site operator. Members will be aware of also contributed to the debate, as did my hon. Friends that from the debates that took place at the time. The the Members for Waveney, for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) maximum amount of commission did not change, and and for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) and the hon. Members it remains at 10%. I can understand why owners object for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) and for to commission on the sale of a home. They feel aggrieved Hartlepool. They have shown the strength of feeling in that they have to give up 10% of the sale price, which is favour of making sure that our residents are well protected paid to the site owner, who they feel does nothing in and can have confidence about their rights in respect of exchange. Sometimes they see this charge as a kind of their homes. estate agency fee at a point when the site owner is no The hon. Member for North East Derbyshire raised a longer involved in the sales process. However unfair particular resident’s issue about a site owner’s claim that home owners feel the payment of commission is, the having a property empty is breaking the rules and that fact that it is payable should not come as a surprise. It is the property could be put in the hands of the site an implied term of the pitch agreement, and they should owner’s solicitor and sold. If that is what the resident is have been aware that it was payable on a sale when they being told, it is simply not correct—the law does allow purchased the home. for a property to be empty. If the hon. Lady wants to The maximum rate of commission is 10%, as it has write to me or contact me outside, I will happily take been since the Conservative Government reduced it the matter forward and give her a formal response. from 15% in 1983. As we have heard, site operators do The 2013 Act was the biggest shake-up in park home not have to charge the maximum rate. The right hon. legislation in 30 years. The Government were pleased to Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole made the fair support it during its passage through both Houses. It point that it would be interesting to find out more about marks our commitment to ensuring that park home whether anybody is charging less than the maximum owners are protected and that their rights are fully amount. If Members will bear with me, I will return to respected. One of those is the right to sell a park home that in relation to their comments about a review. without undue interference from the site operator. As the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) Commission is a legitimate income stream for park said, there was significant evidence that the role of the home businesses, and there is no evidence that its payment site operator in approving the purchaser was being leads to profiteering. As the right hon. Member for abused by the unscrupulous to block the sale. This is as Leeds Central and others said, that was the finding of much about protecting the integrity and reputation of the independent report on the economics of the industry good site owners as about weeding out the scourge of commissioned by the previous Government in 2002. the bad, rogue landlords whom none of us want to be The other income strands come from selling homes and viable. Park owners in my constituency, such as Blue pitch fees. Income from selling homes is obviously Sky, work hard to provide a good environment for limited because it requires the availability of pitches—land people to live in. The Act has removed the opportunity in anyone’s ownership will always be restricted to a for abuse by abolishing the right of a site operator to certain amount—or site redevelopment. approve the person to whom a home could be sold. Changes in pitch fees are regulated and linked to The new system for buying and selling has been in inflation, as are certain other costs that the operator place since last May. As Members have outlined, it is incurs in running the site. Therefore, if the maximum much fairer than the old system in which the site rate of commission were to be reduced from 10%, or operator could demand to interview, or otherwise vet, a abolished altogether, there would need to be compensatory prospective purchaser—often with a view to putting off relief through pitch fees. The independent report noted a purchase so that the site operator could acquire the that if the commission were decreased or abolished home from the seller at a fraction of its true market outright, operators would look to increase prices elsewhere. value. That was simply not acceptable. While the practice In particular, it found that abolition would result in of sale blocking was not endemic, it was acknowledged pitch fee rises of between 20% and 32%. to be widespread. The new procedure reduces the As the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. opportunity for abuse. As we have heard, there are still, Member for Leeds Central, has said, property owners sadly, some unscrupulous operators who continue to do have mixed feelings about what the impact would be. It what they can to interfere with people’s homes and their has been argued today that the report is flawed and that rights over them. the views of home owners were not fully considered. It It is fair to say that, as has been reported to me, some has even been suggested elsewhere—I think my right site operators have experienced sellers not complying hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North with the new system and not following the correct Poole referred to this—that the report was not independent. 501 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 502

Annette Brooke: It has indeed been suggested to me Natascha Engel: The Minister says that a majority of that site owners and those involved in the business had sites are well managed. What evidence does he have that quite an input into the report, albeit not in the writing-up it is not a minority that are well managed and a majority stage. I do not know how true that is, but it contributes that are mismanaged? all the more to the case for having a review sooner rather than later. A lot of things have changed since 2002. Brandon Lewis: Actually, what I said was that the majority of site operators need the commission to maintain Brandon Lewis: My right hon. Friend makes a very their sites. On the question of whether they are poorly good point. It is nice when we all agree from time to managed and maintained, I said that some operators time. are not investing in them. That is exactly what the The right hon. Member for Leeds Central also said 2013 Act—the rules and laws that came into force on that things have moved on since 12 years ago. The 1 April 2014—deals with. report is 12 years old and I agree that it had a small The independent report carefully evaluated the economic sample base, but it was based on a range of park home structure of the industry and concluded that commission sites—from the very small to the very large. Although it was an important income strand that could not be was published in 2002, there is no great evidence at abolished or reduced without relief. Nevertheless, the present to suggest that the economic structures of the previous Government consulted on what the appropriate industry have changed significantly in the intervening maximum rate should be. Although home owners favoured years. There was some involvement from homeowners— a reduction in or abolition of the commission rate, very there had to be, given the nature of the study in preparing few thought it should be linked, as the right hon. the report. However, the report was on the economics of Member for Leeds Central has outlined, to a reduction the sector; it was not, to be fair to the previous Government, or an increase in their pitch fees. Understandably, and a consultation. as the right hon. Gentleman also said, those who generally saw their park home as their home for life wanted to Jeremy Lefroy: Does the Minister not agree that one retain the existing system, while other site owners wanted of the things that has changed is the value of those no change at all. The then Government’s preferred homes? Given that the commission is a percentage of option at that time was to have a 7.5% commission on the value, which has probably outstripped inflation existing agreements and to abolish it on new ones, but considerably in many parts of the country, that is a to have unregulated pitch fee increases, for which consultees substantial change, even since 2002. showed little support. The consultation was therefore inconclusive. It looked at options in relation to the Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a very good payment but, as we all now know, it was not about point, although I would point out that the proportion reducing or abolishing commission. The then Government changes for both parties and the percentage remains the therefore decided that no case had been made to change same. the status quo. Home owners also complained that the report’s findings In the spring of 2012, the issue of commission was were not borne out by the facts and, as hon. Members looked at again by the Communities and Local Government have said, that the 10% commission is not necessarily Committee. It held an inquiry into the sector, and invested in the management and maintenance of the published its finding in June 2012. Its report, which site, but is simply treated as profit. I have no doubt that identified widespread malpractice in the sector, led the there will be examples where that is the case. We are Government to support the Bill introduced by my hon. aware that some sites are poorly managed and poorly Friend the Member for Waveney. We agreed with the maintained and that operators do not invest in them. Select Committee’s finding that there should be no However, that does not mean that that is universally the change to commission. That was our view in 2012, and case. The majority of site operators need that commission it remains our view today, but I will return to the issue to maintain their sites. of the review in a moment.

Stephen Lloyd: I concur completely that it is not Annette Brooke: I am afraid that I may be anticipating always the case, but does the Minister agree that, whether the Minister, but does he think that the Select Committee or not the operators maintain their sites, they still conducted a thorough review? I praise it for its whole receive the 10%? report on park homes, but I was not aware that a large part of its work related to the 10% commission. Brandon Lewis: Yes. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The fact that some do not bother to maintain Brandon Lewis: It is not for me to question the their sites should be dealt with. It is for the local decisions of the Select Committee or its Chair about authority to tackle the issue through the new licensing how they go forward, but I will turn in a few moments enforcement tools introduced by the Mobile Homes to how what they looked at can be taken forward. I now Act 2013, which was promoted by my hon. Friend the want to make a bit of progress with my speech. Member for Waveney and came into force just a few As other Members have rightly said, the justice campaign months ago, in April 2014. and its founder, Sonia McColl, are to be congratulated The answer to poorly maintained and managed sites on their fantastic, sterling work in raising issues about that suffer from a lack of investment in their infrastructure problems with the park home sector and on the need for is to use that new law and report poor conditions to the reform. As I have explained, we believe that commission local authority, which under the licensing powers can is a legitimate income strand. It does not result in require the site owner to spend money on improving profiteering—at the moment, the evidence does not conditions. back up such a claim—and site owners who run a 503 Sale of Park Homes30 OCTOBER 2014 Sale of Park Homes 504 legitimate business within the law are entitled, like any Brandon Lewis: I hope that the right hon. Lady will such business, to make a reasonable profit. If the take an active part in the group, but I do not want to commission were changed, compensatory relief would put too many dates in her diary, unlike the hon. Member be needed. There are good site owners who run professional for Hartlepool. I have asked for an Under-Secretary businesses within the law. I am sure that all Members State to chair the group so that it is taken forward as a want them, for the benefit of their residents and of the Government working group. I hope that other colleagues economy, to thrive and grow. We therefore do not want across the House who have concerns about this matter put in place measures that could affect their continuing will participate in that work to improve the sector. We viability. will also involve national resident groups and industry I appreciate that that may be unwelcome to some trade bodies, as well as representatives of local authorities home owners who have campaigned for a reduction in and other agencies that are involved in the park homes the commission or its abolition. We should not, however, sector. lose sight of the substantial reforms that were introduced I reiterate that we are committed to improving the by the 2013 Act. It targets unscrupulous and criminal sector so that those who run professional, honest businesses operators who think that the law does not apply to can prosper without unfair competition from the rogues, them: it does, it should and it must. Apart from introducing and so that home owners, some of whom are vulnerable, new provisions to prevent the blocking of sales and a can be assured that their rights are respected, that their new scheme for selling homes, the Act requires site health and safety is protected and that they will not operators to use a statutory form, and to set out what is suffer bullying and harassment. included in any proposed new pitch fee and how that fee has been calculated. We are therefore starting to see the transparency that we want to exist more widely. The Act 4.21 pm has banned certain types of rules that can be used to block sales on sites. It also introduced important provisions Annette Brooke: It is a pleasure to have you presiding to reform local authority site licensing, which came into over our debate, Madam Deputy Speaker, knowing that force on 1 April this year. These hugely important you have an interest in this subject. changes for the first time give local authorities powers I thank all Members for their excellent contributions. to take enforcement action against rogues who refuse to I thank the park home owners who have contacted us in maintain their sites. various ways. I also take on board the representations I want to reassure the House that the Government that I have received from good site owners, who have recognise that more work needs to be done to change contacted me either directly or indirectly, about how the culture of the sector and to crack down on the well their sites are managed. I would like them to come rogues operating within it who give everybody in the to the new group to showcase their good practice. sector a bad name and affect the lives of residents I thank the Minister for his response. I am sure that unfortunate to live in such areas. To achieve that, we park home owners will feel very reassured that their will continue to work with partners to raise standards interests are being looked at. We have to continue generally, and to remove criminality from this sector. looking for the right balance, but I think that everybody In particular, I am determined to stamp out the here has acknowledged that site owners need a return continuing bad practices in the industry, such as unlawful on their capital and that, equally, park home owners sale blocking, or local authorities and other agencies need justice. not using their powers effectively to protect home owners. I liked the words from my hon. Friend the Member That is why I have asked that a ministerial colleague to for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) when bring together representatives from across the sector to he said that bundling everything together was preventing identify evidence of poor practice where it exists, and the free market from working. I am not always a great investigate how best to raise standards further and free marketeer, but he made a strong argument. We have tackle abuse. That group will significantly help to shape vulnerable constituents who are not being given perfect the review of the Mobile Homes Act. information on which they can make rational choices. It I agree with hon. Members, not least my right hon. is therefore important to think about the model. Friend, that the review should have an independent In conclusion, I hope that we have taken another chair. The review will be undertaken in 2017, which will little step forward, but we need to deal with this issue give us a couple of years to see the impact of the new sooner rather than later. We must bear it in mind that laws before we review how they are working. However, I there is a general election coming up. I am afraid that would be very happy for that group, under its own each time we have had a general election, we have taken auspices, to consider a wider review of the issues that a couple of steps backwards in our attempts to achieve have been raised today. I hope that my right hon. Friend more for park home owners. I hope that we really have will take up the opportunity to be part of the group. I made progress today and I look forward to participating know that the Under-Secretary will welcome Members in future work. who want to contribute to and be part of it. Question put and agreed to. Mr Iain Wright: I might be giving the right hon. Resolved, Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette That this House calls on the Government to set up a review Brooke) responsibilities that she does not want, but of the current fee of up to 10 per cent of the sale price of a should she not chair the group? park home payable to the park home site owner. 505 30 OCTOBER 2014 General Practices (Coventry) 506

General Practices (Coventry) increasing and the number of GPs is decreasing—the figure from the Deloitte study is something like a 2.5% Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House decrease in the total number of GPs over the last (Jenny Willott.) do now adjourn.— five years, at a time of increasing demands on them in terms of visits and patients to be seen. Let us remember 4.23 pm that 90% of all patients are first seen in a primary Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): practice by GPs before they access any other services This debate might not be as lively as the debate on post offered by the NHS, including the general hospital, and offices in May, when we also had the pleasure and that figure is increasing every year. For the first time in privilege to have you presiding over us, Madam Deputy the NHS’s history, however, the number of GPs is Speaker. Nevertheless, we have an important topic to shrinking. We must deal with that basic fact at a time debate and I am pleased that the Under-Secretary of when numbers should be increasing. State for Health, the hon. Member for Central Suffolk I am pleased that the Labour party has pledged—this and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) is ready to respond, is not a party political point—to increasing the number because we have one or two questions for him. I thank of GPs by 8,000, and to raise the money for that and for Mr Speaker for granting the debate. My hon. Friend the wider £2.5 billion spending on the health service through Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) would a mansion tax and a tax on tobacco companies. I am like to take part and he has my willing acquiescence. I sure that in so far as such measures have success—I do not intend to detain the Minister or the House for have some experience of that with the windfall tax that long this evening, but I wish to put to him a point that some Members may remember—the latter idea will find was made to me in a precise and graphic way by the widespread support throughout the House. If at the end local medical committee for Coventry—it is also for of the day the mansion tax does not prove successful for Rugby, but in this debate I am principally speaking as whatever reason, the Government will have to look the Member of Parliament for Coventry North West. elsewhere, but the need for additional resources can no The situation has been described as a “crisis”. A longer be denied. letter, almost a cri de coeur, went out from the local Shortly before coming to the Chamber for the debate, medical committee on behalf of GPs, issued in the I heard on the news that the Secretary of State has said name of the chairman of Coventry local medical committee, that the reconfiguration involves not only integration of Dr Peter Whidborne. He said that, care for the elderly and social care with the mainstream “due to increasing workload, and decreasing resources, general health care services. That is important, but it also practice has now reached crisis point.” involves dealing with the divisions between the acute That is what triggered my interest in this matter and my hospitals, which take the bulk of the spend, and GPs. concern as the local MP, and it was reinforced by many The reconfiguration must mean that more is done by anecdotal and personal encounters with residents in my GPs when services can be sensibly provided by them, constituency—I am sure my hon. Friend will confirm and that less is done in hospitals. I believe I am correct the same thing for Coventry South—who said that they that that idea was first mooted by Lord Darzi in around cannot get appointments with GPs. Patients are finding 2008-09. The word used at the time was “polyclinics”, the situation increasingly frustrating, and an assiduous which require a lot of investment. In the interview on campaign has been waged by certain elements of the television news, the Secretary of State said words to the popular press against the 2004 GPs contract and all the effect that we need more GPs and 15,000 more community weaknesses that we know it contained, yet there is also workers in GP practice to make it a success, both of the reality of the pressures under which GPs operate. which clearly require more money. The public’s general impression is that the previous Somehow or other, the Government must face up to Government granted GPs all too easy a deal but that the fact that, when it comes to claims for money, GPs have not responded in kind, and that despite the services to patients in Coventry and cities throughout general improvement in their terms and conditions, the country must be increased. Otherwise, we will have rather than improving services they have in fact responded more closures of local management committees and GP with a decrease in the level of service provided. Many practices. Some 518 UK practices have closed in the would agree that there has been such a decrease, but past five years. Others have expanded, but in Coventry they would disagree that that is due entirely, or even alone, eight major practices have closed. We have shrinkage mainly, to the 2004 contract changes. In fact, it is a of capacity and an increase in demand. By the definition reflection of the general unease throughout the whole of those two statements, we have a crisis, which is the health care service. Such unease is reflected, among subject of our debate. other things, in reliable figures produced by the Deloitte Will the Minister tell us how far the Government Centre for Health Solutions, which I will refer to in a have got with the pilot scheme under the clinical moment. On access to GPs, as with other areas of the commissioning group in north Lancashire? The pilot health service such as A and E departments in the acute intends to find out how the additional resources—£1 million hospitals or services for elderly people who suffer from has been put up—can be fed in without taking away a chronic condition, people are finding it increasingly from other parts of the health service, which it is difficult to get the level of care required, and the resources important to emphasise. How is that working out? needed to provide it, because of the stretching of health That point came to my attention with the letter and service provision at a time when resources are relatively prompted me to apply for the debate. The situation was stagnant. highlighted in an early-day motion back in June. I did Let me cite some figures that I think graphically not sign it at the time but have rectified that. It was illustrate the situation we are facing. In Coventry, the tabled by a Member who speaks for the Liberal party number of people emigrating from other countries is and seconded by two distinguished Labour Members, a 507 General Practices (Coventry)30 OCTOBER 2014 General Practices (Coventry) 508 former Chairman of the Select Committee on Health Government’s plans to ensure that there are more GPs, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and not five years out but in the next year or two? Can we St Pancras (Frank Dobson), a previous Labour Secretary expect any net increase in resources and in the number of State for Health—he was Secretary of State in one of of GPs? Do we have any plans to have 15,000 extra the earlier Labour Administrations. An amendment community care health workers? It seems to me that we that I would be interested in supporting was tabled by a have an undue concentration in the reorganisation on Government Member. He said that money was available the secondary sector. We have always had, in this House for that pilot study. I would like to hear how it is making and outside, a top-down preoccupation with the secondary services more effective and providing more resources sector, the acute hospital, as if we solve everything by a effectively for the delivery of GP services. concentration on it. There is a conundrum. Why are GP practices not as When I received the letter from the Coventry GPs, I attractive as they ought to be to new entrants? Fewer of realised that an increasing problem relates to the place those qualifying in the medical profession want to go that GPs occupy within the health community. What into general practice, hence we have a net decline in the progress is being made in north Lancashire? What are total numbers at the very time when, for all the reasons the Government’s plans in the next year or two—they I have given, we should be increasing those numbers. must have them, because they budget over three years—for Why is it so difficult? When one gets into a practice, and the number of GPs, increasing resources and the before becoming a partner, one gets more than £50,000 establishment of new buildings? a year. Beyond that, when people become partners, they I would like to mention another point that has been get approaching £100,000 and sometimes more, even in brought to my attention. There has been some investment the initial stages. The average pay for GPs in Coventry is in new buildings for GP practices. Has that investment more than £100,000 a year. been made with a view to them becoming polyclinics and taking on more of the “routine” jobs, if we can call Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Some them that? They are still very specialist and require months ago, I visited one or two different general trained nurses, which is why Labour has plans for practices in Coventry. The disparity in medical technology 20,000 more nurses—not all, perhaps, for GP surgeries— was startling. I have raised that in the House before, but and 8,000 more doctors. They are very skilled jobs, even I hope the Minister will touch on the reasons why we though they are more routine. How much of the investment get such disparities. in new buildings for GPs has been devoted to the provision of a wider range of care? I ask that because it Mr Robinson: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend is clear that the capital cost of investing in providing for his intervention. new premises for practices is one of the stumbling Some 10,000 GPs—I am sure these figures are well blocks to getting new entrants into GP practices. researched by Deloitte—have expressed an intention to The other point I want to draw attention to when it retire in the next five years. That is 2,000 a year, and comes to the Government’s plans, in addition to whether Labour is promising to increase the number of GPs by there is a problem with the practices and the capital 8,000. We will therefore need considerably more than costs of buildings, relates to women GPs. Nearly half of that just to remain where we are now. What are the all GPs are now women—I think it is roughly 50%—and projections for doctor qualifications and the division they need to be able to work part time. We therefore between secondary and primary care? Are we catering need a flexible contract. Is it flexible and is flexibility for enough or will we have a continuing crisis with encouraged? They have a tremendous and increasing people blaming, as they do in the press all the time, the role to play. previous contract when in fact there are simply not Those are the questions I wanted to put to the enough doctors or resources to go around? Minister. We are very pleased to see him in his place and I do not want to say that all doctors are perfect. They I am very pleased that we are having this debate. are no more perfect than the rest of the human race. The simple fact is that they are under strain. I could cite 4.39 pm many instances, but I would like to mention one in particular. Dr Jamie Mcpherson, the secretary of the Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I thank local medical committee in Coventry, is a very fine and my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West dedicated GP whom I have known for years—he was (Mr Robinson) for the invitation to contribute to this one of the first people to come and see me when I was evening’s Adjournment debate. I am told—I hope I first elected—through the troubled years when Lady have got this right—that it is the Minister’s birthday Thatcher’s Governments were first introducing tremendous today, so may I get off on the right footing by wishing cost pressures. When there was the idea that GPs would him a happy birthday? [Interruption.] He is looking be budget holders of practices, he came to see me and rather puzzled about how I might have found out, but I said, “We don’t want that. We are aware we have to think we should wish him a happy birthday anyway, improve, but we want to be doctors serving the community.” even if he disagrees with what we say in this debate. That was his view. There is always a tension between the I support my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry pressure to make GPs into budget holders who look at North West, because family doctors in Coventry have costs and the need for them to be committed to what they warned that local GP surgeries are at breaking point. are really there for: serving the community as doctors. The Coventry local medical committee has written to I said I would give plenty of time for my hon. Friend the Government to highlight just how much GPs are the Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) to struggling. The letter was sent on behalf of 198 GPs, speak and I intend to do so. Before I sit down, however, nurses, managers and other staff. I am concerned that I would like to raise a few more points. What are the the life of a GP is becoming increasingly unattractive. 509 General Practices (Coventry)30 OCTOBER 2014 General Practices (Coventry) 510

[Mr Jim Cunningham] Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I call the Minister, and the House wishes him a happy birthday. We are seeing earlier retirement and emigration to other countries. We do not want a shortage of experienced GPs because we are driving them away. We are all aware 4.44 pm of the demographic changes that are putting increased The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health pressure on GPs, but we can try not to exacerbate them. (Dr Daniel Poulter): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I have written to the Health Secretary on this matter and I thank the hon. Member for Coventry South and I look forward to the reply. (Mr Cunningham) for his kind regards in that respect. I want to raise a few areas of concern about the ways I congratulate the hon. Member for Coventry North in which GPs are put under pressure. I have heard from West (Mr Robinson) on securing this debate. Like his GPs on the ground that the level of paperwork required hon. Friend, he raised a number of important broader is ever increasing. Targets for GPs can be useful, but points about the future of general practice and the work GPs feel that they are continually trying to satisfy force—I hope to provide some reassurance in that regard— changing requirements in order to receive the required and some important local issues, which I also intend to funding. When that is combined with the climbing address. numbers of appointments, GPs are hard pushed to tick I commend both hon. Members for their interest in all the boxes needed to ensure that they are not financially local health care matters as they affect their constituents, penalised. I am concerned that GPs are being forced to and I pay tribute to the dedication and professionalism spend far too much time doing administrative and of all the GPs and other staff working in primary care managerial work, which is simply not practical when in Coventry and surrounding areas. The House will patient numbers are soaring and GP numbers are dropping. agree, I am sure, that good quality patient care is expected, That has been made far worse as a result of the regardless of which part of the country we live in. GPs Government’s top-down reorganisation of the national are the bedrock of our NHS, with an estimated 340 million health service, with the introduction of GP-led consultations taking place in general practice every commissioning. We ought to be asking our GPs to do year. We want to ensure that we always give GPs the what they should be doing: treating patients, rather right support so that they can deliver the best possible than being swamped in paperwork. care for patients. I am concerned that, as a result, GPs are unable to I am aware that the Coventry and Rugby local medical meet the expectations of patients. GPs routinely work committee of the British Medical Association issued an between 10 and 12 hours a day and offer appointments open letter on 26 September, giving its views on national at 10-minute intervals. That is extremely demanding, and local issues in general practice. but it also means that they are unable to give patients Let me turn first to one of the important points the care they would wish to. For example, 10-minute raised in the debate, which was that there has quite slots do not allow time to discuss more than a few rightly often been a focus on the NHS as viewed through medical issues, and certainly not in any depth. Doctors the prism of secondary care, yet the majority of want to help their patients, but the vast numbers of engagements with patients is in primary care and in the patients, combined with the paperwork and administrative community. We need to recognise the role of pharmacy, work demanded of them, make that difficult. Patients too, as many people’s first point of contact will be with deserve doctors who have the resources and the time to the pharmacist and, in the NHS, with their GP or provide the best care they can. another element of primary and community health Last year, a survey of GPs by the British Medical care. It is therefore important to challenge that traditional Association showed those points clearly. Almost all the prism through which the NHS tends to be regarded. We doctors responding to the survey said that bureaucracy know that it is not just about hospitals; it is about and quality and outcomes framework box-ticking had primary care, too, and about ensuring that we invest to increased in the past year, 94% said that their workload support GPs and deliver other high-quality community had increased, 82% felt that some of the new targets health care services. were reducing the number of appointments available to the majority of patients, 90% said that their practice’s Mr Robinson: We are greatly reassured by the Minister resources were likely to fall in the next year, and 45% and agree with what he said. Will he confirm the figure—I said they were less engaged with the new clinical was quite surprised to discover it—that at least 90% of commissioning groups because of the increased workload. all initial contacts with the NHS are through primary Perhaps most significantly, 86% of GPs said that morale services? As he rightly says, it is mainly GPs, but chemists had fallen in the past year. and others, too. Is the 90% figure correct? I know that GPs surgeries are working hard to keep things going, but we cannot replace resources. Will the Dr Poulter: I believe that that estimate is correct, Minister make a commitment to Labour’s £2.5 billion although it is impossible to give a totally accurate Time to Care fund? The Time to Care fund will support figure, because some of the consultations, particularly 20,000 more nurses, 8,000 more GPs, 5,000 more care with a pharmacist, might be informal rather than registered workers and 3,000 more midwives. Nothing speaks like as an official consultation. For many people, it is important adequate funding. The extra funding will help to reduce to get advice from their local pharmacist about how the pressure. I want to know what the Government are better to manage their medication regime or just to seek doing to alleviate the pressure on GPs, to ensure they simple advice about what to take for an upset stomach. have the adequate resources to do the job and to improve Those informal consultations are not usually registered morale. Finally, will the Minister make a commitment in the same way as GP consultations, even though they to Labour’s plans to spend more on the NHS? happen every single minute of every day in our health 511 General Practices (Coventry)30 OCTOBER 2014 General Practices (Coventry) 512 service. Those points of contact are in the community, point that the work force now includes many women not in secondary care. This is how most people will GPs. That is one of the great strengths of the profession, come into contact with the health service, although in but we must bear in mind the need to enable women this place we sometimes talk about the NHS through who take career breaks in order to start a family to the prism of secondary care. It is a legitimate challenge return to general practice. I know that a great deal of for all us of to recognise the importance of primary and work is being done in that regard, not just locally but community care and to continue to invest in and support nationally, involving the Royal College of General those people who deliver that when we design health Practitioners and the General Medical Practice. care services in the years ahead. We accept that the work force must grow to meet As a doctor myself, I particularly recognise the work rising demand from an ageing population. That is why of GPs and the vital role that they play. Shortly after the our mandate to Health Education England requires local medical committee issued its letter, as highlighted 50% of trainee doctors, after graduation—3,250, on the in the remarks of the hon. Member for Coventry North basis of current forecasts—to enter GP training West, the Government were pleased to see that NHS programmes by 2016; the current figure is about 40%. employers, on behalf of NHS England and the BMA, That will enable further increases to be made in the GP reached agreement on changes to the GP contract. The work force: we expect an increase of about 5,000 by BMA made the point that these changes will provide 2020. Although numbers are rising, we know that GPs much needed breathing space for general practice and need more resources. greater stability for patients. However, we accept there is much more that we need to do in the longer term to Mr Robinson: My hon. Friend and I are very reassured support general practice, such as recruiting more GPs by what the Minister has said. As for the numbers—which, to help tackle GP burn-out. I shall say more about that of course, we always have to plan for—does the increase later. of 5,000 by 2020 mean an increase in the total number We are of course pleased to have reached agreement of doctors, or an increase in the number of GPs? Will with the BMA, and I think it is useful to set out a few that be enough, given that 10,000 doctors will retire points nationally about what we have done nationally from general practice alone in the next five years? Does and what we want to do in the coming years, as this will the 5,000 figure relate to the position after those GPs help to address some of the concerns raised by the hon. have retired? How does the calculation work? Gentleman. First, it is worth highlighting some of the investment Dr Poulter: The figures that I gave are based on what in general practice that has taken place. We recognise we assume will be the attrition rate over the next five the need for a reversal of the shift that the hon. Gentleman years. The total number of doctors has increased by, I described so articulately—the shift that has taken place, believe, about 7,000 over the last four years, but the over decades of investment, away from community care 2020 figure relates specifically to GPs. and towards hospital care. I hope the hon. Gentleman The hon. Gentleman has made a good point. The will be reassured by the latest figures, which show that same consideration has historically applied to health the total investment in general practice increased in visitors. When a large proportion of that work force has cash terms by 2.92% between 2012-13 and 2013-14, been close to retirement over a five or 10-year period, it from £7,863.8 million to £8,093.4 million. I shall write has meant the loss of a great deal of experience, but that to him to confirm those figures, but I think we should is not the only issue: there is also the need to plan for all welcome the reversal of the traditional shift in those retirements in advance. The figures that we worked favour of secondary care towards general practice and out with Health Education England take account of other primary care. The hon. Gentleman may be aware attrition rates. that NHS England published its “Five Year Forward Part of that is about ensuring that half those medical View” last week. In that report, it committed itself to students become GPs on graduation; currently, only more investment in primary care over the next five 40% do so. That is where the extra increase in capacity years, including investment in infrastructure. will come from. That will also address the fundamental I know that the hon. Gentleman is rightly concerned issue that we have been discussing today—namely, that about GP numbers. Although the headcount figure in we need more people working in the community and in this year’s annual work force census shows a very small primary care. We need to move the prism of the discussion decrease of 29, the full-time equivalent figure has increased about what good health care looks like away from it by 423, or 1.2%, which represents a real increase in being just about delivering good health care in hospitals. capacity in the system. There are now 36,294 full-time The work being undertaken by Health Education equivalent GPs working in the NHS, including registrars England will improve the applications and fill-rate for and retainers. That is an increase of 423 since 2012, and GP training. The work includes: a review of the GP an increase of more than 1,000 since 2010. There are recruitment process; development of a returner and 329 full-time equivalent GPs working in the Coventry refresher scheme; development of a pre-GP year to give and Rugby clinical commissioning group area, compared prospective GP applicants exposure to the specialty; with 305 in 2010, so numbers are beginning to increase and careers advice for foundation doctors and medical locally. I hope that that, too, is reassuring. students. That careers advice is important. When I was I understand that the NHS England Arden, at medical school, everyone in my year wanted to be a Herefordshire and Worcestershire area team is working hospital doctor. I entered a hospital specialty. It is with the deanery, examining work force development therefore important that, from day one at medical school, issues and, specifically, ways of improving the process students are encouraged and supported to recognise the for GPs who want to return to general practice after a tremendous opportunities that a career in general practice career break. The hon. Gentleman made the important could offer. 513 General Practices (Coventry)30 OCTOBER 2014 General Practices (Coventry) 514

[Dr Poulter] nationally, and Coventry is no exception to that trend. However, I am told that significant work has been done Part of the challenge is to set the aspirations of over the past few years to increase access and to support medical students appropriately and to recognise that local initiatives. Significant investment has been made the work of a general practitioner is equally as important in premises to improve better access to services and an to—if not sometimes more important than—the work improved patient experience. Four practices co-located of a hospital specialist. We need to encourage greater to the City of Coventry health centre in 2012 and three recognition of that fact in medical schools, given that practices moved to the new centre at Clay lane in 2013. we want to deliver more care in the community. I believe The hon. Gentlemen raised some issues about practice that it is Lancaster medical school that has done a very closures— good job of placing a greater emphasis on prospective GPs doing more community-based and primary care 5pm placements during medical school training. That has encouraged more students to enter general practice Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). afterwards. I think I am right in saying that it is Lancaster medical school, but I will write to the hon. Member for Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. Coventry North West after the debate to outline exactly It being Five o’clock and there being a total lack of where that kind of initiative has been effective. When Whips in the Chamber— looking at how we should train our future work force, it is vital to ensure that more medical students focus on a Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I beg career in general practice from an early stage of their to move that the House do now adjourn. development if we are to encourage more of them to choose that route. We know that that has worked in the Madam Deputy Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. past. Gentleman for his attempt to be helpful, but I will invite the Minister to move that the House do now adjourn, I shall not detain the House by describing the work after which he may recommence his speech. that Health Education England is doing nationally. Instead, I want to respond to the hon. Gentleman’s Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House questions by talking about what we are doing now to do now adjourn.—(Dr Poulter.) support GPs through technology to enable them to provide a better service to patients. This applies not Dr Poulter: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I only to the service available during the current opening apologise for the lack of the usual accompanying member hours but to how we might facilitate community and of the Treasury Bench team to conclude proceedings, primary care services on a more seven-days-a-week but I am pleased to continue the informative debate we basis. have been having. I was addressing the point about practice closures. Last autumn, the Prime Minister announced a challenge The way the information is collected sometimes leads to fund of £50 million to support innovative GP practices a headline of “practice closures”, but it may well be that in improving services and access for their patients. As practices have merged, and it is important to recognise well as offering seven-days-a-week access and evening that when we have a debate, even an informed one such opening hours, pioneer GP groups will test a variety of as this. When a number of practices have co-located forward-thinking services to suit modern lifestyles, including locally to improve premises and there has been improved Skype, e-mail and phone consultations. We need to investment, that is an enhancement of services; it in no recognise that this is about engaging with people on way diminishes the services available to patients. I do their own terms. Someone who is working might want not know the details of each and every surgery in to engage with their GP in a different way from someone Coventry, but clearly collaboration has taken place, who is retired, for example. The challenge fund will help along the lines of the Darzi model outlined by the hon. to address those questions. Member for Coventry North West, whereby surgeries The challenge fund is now supporting more than can pool their resources and work together. That can 1,000 practices covering every region. The pilots will bring benefits to all their patients and mean an additional draw best and innovative practice from GPs on the freeing up of money to invest in other community-based ground to determine what is needed and works locally. health services, for example, physiotherapy or speech We recently announced a second wave of access pilots, and language therapy. That approach has worked well with further funding of £100 million for 2015-16. Yesterday, in many parts of the country, including in the examples NHS England published details of how to apply to I gave in Coventry. become a wave 2 pilot site, including the application I understand that NHS England has also given approval criteria, process and time scales. I hope that practices in for new premises for the Prior Deram Walk practice in Coventry will take advantage of that fund and make Canley, Coventry, with the new facility expected to be applications to support local patients. completed next summer. Ongoing investment is taking The £3.8 billion Better Care Fund combines existing place locally. Practices in Coventry have a good provision funding into a single health and care pot, promoting of extended hours, through the enhanced service for integrated care and joint working between health and extended hours, and have adopted online booking for care services. It aims to ease pressure on services by appointments and repeat prescriptions. NHS England’s encouraging greater prevention and by supporting people area team monitors complaints from patients and is to stay independent for as long as possible. I have been currently receiving no complaints about either access or informed that, in 2015-16, the Coventry clinical a difficulty in registering with a practice in the Coventry commissioning group will receive £9 million to improve area, although if there are concerns, I would be happy services in the local area. Demand continues to grow to take an intervention. 515 General Practices (Coventry)30 OCTOBER 2014 General Practices (Coventry) 516

Mr Jim Cunningham: I thank the Minister for his separately about it. We have discussed local issues in his announcement about a new practice in Prior Deram Walk, constituency before. I will take away what he says and which is badly needed and which we would welcome. get back to him, hopefully with some reassurance on the points that he has raised. Dr Poulter: I am pleased to have brought some good news about future planning to the debate. As I will be The CCG is developing a pre-hospital model to help writing to the hon. Member for Coventry North West in manage urgent care and reduce attendance and admission detail about some of the initiatives with medical students, to hospital. The development includes operational and I am happy to outline further the future plans for that clinical staff from a number of organisations including practice in the letter. patient champions, primary care, local trusts and authorities, and unscheduled care providers. GP patient survey results from 2014 indicate that 85% of people who responded in the Coventry and The model being considered at the moment describes Rugby clinical commissioning group area rated their a community urgent care system designed around the GP surgery as “very good” or “fairly good”. Although patient, ensuring easy and timely access at a convenient this is a high proportion, it could of course be improved location without blocks or diversions. The CCG and its further. The figure is, however, testament to the work of partners at the Coventry urgent care board have developed local GPs and the quality of care they provide, alongside and agreed a winter capacity and resilience plan. NHS everybody who works in those practices. I am also England has made £2.8 million available to support the aware that Coventry local medical committee had concerns plan, and a number of specific winter schemes are that Coventry and Rugby CCG was not following NHS already being put in place. They include: additional England planning guidance and investing more in general home care capacity for both planned and unplanned practice to support it in transforming the care of patients support; additional social worker capacity to support A aged 75 and older. I understand the LMC has now and E and ward board rounds; GP responders; and reached agreement with the CCG on that, which is hospital at home. good progress. Our plans for personalised care for the The plan sets out a clear mechanism for engaging and most vulnerable patients included NHS England asking developing leaders and staff to enable the cultural changes CCGs to set aside £250 million from existing funds. required to support clinical commissioning activities, However, as has always been the case, CCGs are not performance improvements and services changes necessary restricted to using this funding on general practice only. in the changing NHS environment at a local level. As For example, in some areas, CCGs have used the funding we have said, this is about ensuring that the emphasis is to employ extra district nurses for local practices. moved away from a reactive care model in the hospital— On the important point about the wider community having met the staff in Coventry I know that it is a very work force, it is increasingly the case that although a good reactive care model—and giving people better nurse may be counted as a member of hospital staff, support and care at home. That is what investment in their role goes across not just the hospital, but the local GP practices and increasing GP numbers is about. community. That is particularly the case for nurses who It is also about ensuring that the right relationships are support patients with long-term conditions such as engaged at a local level to support the right type of care multiple sclerosis and diabetes. Although that nurse is being delivered to patients in Coventry. Its focus is on officially counted as a hospital employee, they play an developing internal capacity and capability to ensure increasingly important role in supporting the patient in that the emphasis is on upstream interventions, preventing the community. Having visited the local hospital in people from becoming so unwell that they need to go Coventry, I know that there is a great emphasis on the into hospital, and making sure that people with long-term hospital working much more collaboratively with the conditions and disabilities get the proper community-based community. The role of the hospital is about not just support that they need. picking up the pieces when things go wrong but proactively I hope that I have brought some reassurance to the supporting patients, especially those with long-term hon. Members for Coventry North West and for Coventry conditions, when they are at home. South, and I have a couple of points on which I will write to both of them. Once again, I convey my gratitude Jim Fitzpatrick: I apologise to the Minister for intervening to the front-line staff working in Coventry. I have seen on him while he is replying to a debate on Coventry. He the local hospital for myself and know how hard local just mentioned collaborative service. The Barkantine staff work. It is clear that investment is going into GP practice in my constituency combines a 10-handed GP premises locally and that there is a commitment to practice with a walk-in centre. It is able to offer continuing to support general practice in Coventry and appointments from 8 o’clock in the morning to 8 o’clock the development of improved community services to at night seven days a week, which is what the Prime ensure that the big challenge that faces the NHS, which Minister made a big point about in his conference is to support people with long-term conditions, is met, speech. However, because of restructuring, the practice not just nationally, but in particular for those patients is having to hand over its walk-in centre finances to the who need services from the NHS in Coventry. local CCG, which means that the critical mass for providing the 8 am to 8 pm service seven days a week is Jim Fitzpatrick: On a point of order, Madam Deputy no longer appropriate. Will the Minister look at that Speaker. On 16 October, during the Backbench Business with regard to collaborative working, as we are talking Committee debate on cycling, I said that about breaking down a system that the Prime Minister wants to see replicated across the country? “the proportion of cars on that stretch of road is already less than 9%”.—[Official Report, 16 October 2014; Vol. 586, c. 502.] Dr Poulter: I hope the hon. Gentleman will excuse me Further research has clarified that the 9% figure refers if I do not detain the House in addressing that specific to an assessment of the percentage of private cars using point today, but I will look into it and write to him the A3211 route at certain times of the day. This is 517 General Practices (Coventry)30 OCTOBER 2014 General Practices (Coventry) 518

[Jim Fitzpatrick] Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Iam grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I based on counts carried out by transport consultants recall the lively debate and the lively bit of road to Steer Davies Gleave for Canary Wharf Group. It would which he refers. The House is grateful to him for coming have been more accurate for me to have said, “the forward with his usual courtesy and sense of duty in proportion of private cars on that stretch of road is order to set the record straight. already less than 9% at some times of the day.” Question put and agreed to. I am grateful to be able to set the record straight. I apologise for not accurately reflecting the position. I am not sure whether this qualifies technically as misleading the House as it was an incomplete picture, but I apologise 5.11 pm unreservedly for doing so, as that was clearly not my intention. House adjourned. 115WH 30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 116WH

policy wording, which I have just quoted, was dropped. Westminster Hall Notwithstanding that fact, the Business Secretary said in his statement: “None of these amendments should be taken to mean that Thursday 30 October 2014 there has been any substantive change in policy.”—[Official Report, 25 March 2014; Vol. 578, c. 10WS.] Since March, when the Business Secretary gave his [HUGH BAYLEY in the Chair] written ministerial answer, the Government have made various attempts to downgrade or outright dismiss the Arms Exports and Controls key policy wording on arms exports and internal repression in the original ministerial written answer of October [Relevant documents: First Joint Report from the 2000. First, in their latest annual report on United Committees on Arms Export Controls, HC 186, and the Kingdom strategic export controls, which was published Government response, Cm 8935.] in July, the Government chose to describe the wording Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting in question as “the preamble”, even though the word be now adjourned.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.) “preamble” does not appear anywhere in the answer given by the right hon. Member for Neath. 1.30 pm Then, in a letter to me on 6 October, the Foreign Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): As Secretary tried to maintain that that key wording did this will be our last opportunity during this Parliament not represent a statement of policy at all, saying: to debate a report by the Committees on Arms Export “The text in question did not contain any substantive statement Controls, I start by thanking most warmly my colleagues of policy.” from the four Select Committees who have served on I leave it to hon. Members to judge whether that is the our Committees during this Parliament for the time case: that they have given, and most particularly for the “An export licence will not be issued if the arguments for doing tenacity that they have brought to our scrutiny of the so are outweighed…by concern that the goods might be used for Government. I also thank our staff who, because they internal repression”. are so few in number, are exceptionally cost-effective. That was the statement in the written ministerial answer Most particularly I thank the Clerk, Mr Keith Neary, recorded in Hansard. who has given the Committees exemplary service for the greater part of the Parliament during which he has been I stress to the House that it was the unanimous view Clerk. of all four Select Committees comprising the Committees on Arms Export Controls that that wording did represent I am conscious that the increasing width and depth of a substantive statement of policy. It was also the view of our Committees’ scrutiny of this key area has imposed the right hon. Member for Neath, who came before the a significant additional work load on the four Departments Committees to give oral evidence on that very point. concerned, especially the Department for Business, When we asked him specifically whether he thought Innovation and Skills and the Foreign and Commonwealth that policy on arms exports and internal repression had Office, both of which we have visited as Committees to changed, he said: see arms export control procedures in operation. I thank the officials for how they have responded to that “So I do think the policy has changed. It is a more relaxed increased work load, and I make it clear that in so far as approach to arms exports.” there are shortcomings in those responses, that is entirely In the light of those facts, as far as the Committees a matter for Ministers. That brings me to the two areas are concerned—we made this clear in our report—only of major shortcomings that I must address in opening one, regrettable conclusion can be drawn from those this debate, both of which relate to what the Committees important exchanges on arms exports and internal and I regard as the single most important area of repression: the Government have made a significant Government policy: the export of weapons and dual- change in policy, but have not been prepared to acknowledge purpose goods that can be used for internal repression. that such a change has taken place. I put it formally to The previous Government’s arms export control policy the Government that they should consider most carefully was set out in a ministerial written answer on 26 October whether they should now offer an apology to the 2000 by the then Minister of State at the Foreign Office, Committees and the House for making a change in the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). It included policy without being prepared to acknowledge that to a key statement of policy, which remained unchanged the Committees. throughout the life of that Government: “An export licence will not be issued if the arguments for doing Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): My right hon. so are outweighed…by concern that the goods might be used for Friend is making an important point. Hon. Members internal repression”.—[Official Report, 26 October 2000; Vol. 355, may be aware that, in terms of development, the UK c. 200W.] scores extremely well except on one significant issue: We spent two years during this Parliament going hither arms exports. That is the issue that drives our ratings and thither with Ministers on whether they adhered to down the development index. The Minister might not that policy, had changed it, or were seeking to change it. think that that matters, but will he acknowledge that That was brought to a conclusion this year when the there is a perception, which the Chair of the Committees Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills is bearing out, that the UK is more inclined than other announced the present Government’s arms export control countries to sell arms to countries and regimes where policy in a written ministerial statement on 25 March. their use may be questionable? That slightly undermines When that statement appeared, the previous Government’s our reputation for being a pro-development leader. 117WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 118WH

Sir John Stanley: The right hon. Gentleman makes approved, with the Government no doubt saying to an important point as a member of the Committees on themselves, “Well, if things turn really nasty in that Arms Export Controls and the Chair of the International country we can always revoke the export licence.” Development Committee, and I am sure that the Minister I suggest to hon. Members that nothing illustrates will want to respond to it. the weakness and limitations—and indeed the perils—of that policy more clearly than what has happened in Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): In their excellent Libya. Prior to the Arab spring, there was a significant report, the right hon. Gentleman’s Committees draw arms export trade, approved by the Government, to attention to the sale of anti-personnel equipment to Libya under the Gaddafi regime. Not surprisingly, when Bahrain and raise quite reasonable concerns about its the Arab spring came and the Government announced use to control demonstrations and so on. For a while, it their total list of revocations of arms export licences to seemed that the Government were listening to such Arab spring countries, the greatest single number—a concerns, but in April last year, they changed their total of 72 licences—was for licences for Libya. policy and did indeed sell armoured personnel carriers We all know what happened when Gaddafi fell from and other equipment to Bahrain. Does he have any power. Back in the UK, the Government had imposed continuing concerns about the supply of such equipment their revocations, but they were of very limited effect, to Bahrain and its use there? for the simple reason that they are of no use whatever for exports that have already been shipped. As I have Sir John Stanley: The Committees most certainly do. said before, it was an exercise in shutting the stable door As the hon. Gentleman will have seen, we included in after the arms had bolted. What happened in Libya our report specific questions to the Government about itself? The security arrangements around Gaddafi’s arms how particular items that have been approved for export dumps vanished and people ransacked them, principally to Bahrain can be regarded as compatible with the for financial gain, as they saw an opportunity to make export criteria that they supposedly follow. We therefore quick and substantial money.As UN experts have reported, have responded specifically to that. those stockpiles were then sold on and dispersed all over the middle east and north and west Africa. I come now to our second area of disagreement with the Government on arms export policy and internal I suggest that nothing better illustrates the cogency of repression, which is with particular reference to exports the Committees’ recommendation for a significantly to authoritarian regimes. In successive reports the more cautious policy when dealing with arms export Committees have made—again unanimously—the following licence applications for arms that can be used for internal recommendation: repression than what has happened in Libya. It is regrettable that, in their response to successive reports, the Government “the Government should apply significantly more cautious judgements have failed to accept our recommendation for caution. I when considering arms export licence applications for goods to certainly hope that a future Government will take a authoritarian regimes which might be used for internal repression.” different view. Regrettably, in successive responses, the Government I turn now to the Government’s export policy towards have declined to accept our recommendation. a few individual countries, starting with Russia. The I shall set out one of the most striking differences publication of the Committees’ latest report happened between what has happened under the present Government to coincide almost exactly with the appalling shooting and what took place under the previous one. Under the down of the Malaysian airliner MH17 over eastern previous Government, going right back to their election Ukraine. That created something of a dilemma for the in 1997—shortly after which came the foundation of Government, because although, on the one hand, Ministers, the Committees, thanks to the initiative of the late led by the Prime Minister, were rightly condemning the Robin Cook, who was the first Foreign Secretary to Russian Government for being complicit in the shooting produce an annual report on arms exports—the number down of the airliner and the terrible loss of life, on the of revocations or suspensions of existing licences stood other, as was shown by our Committees’ report, there at a mere handful. However, during the lifetime of the were no fewer than 285 extant British Government- present Government, there has been a massive use of approved arms export licences to Russia, with a value of some 400 revocations and suspensions. I do not think some £131 million for the standard individual licences that can be attributed only to the fact that there has alone. been a considerable amount of international turbulence That led at one point to an unknown spokesman in and conflict during this Parliament, as there were wars No. 10 announcing to the media that many of the and turbulence during the previous Government’s lifetime. British Government’s arms exports to Russia were for I make it clear to the Government and the Minister the Brazilian navy, which I have to say came as news to that I am in no way critical of the huge number of me, as I suspect it did to a considerable number of other revocations—indeed, I believe they are entirely justified. people. However, I thought that I should follow that The key question, and the issue that has been exercising one up, so I wrote to the Business Secretary to ask him the Committees, is whether export approval should for the stated end user of each of the 285 extant arms have been given to all the licences in the first place. To export licences to Russia. Disappointingly, he refused to reflect what was said by the right hon. Member for give the Committees that information unless we agreed Gordon (Sir Malcolm Bruce), in broad-brush terms, the not to make it public. I see no justification for imposing Government’s policy on the export of goods that could that condition on the Committees. It is hardly in accordance be used for internal repression to authoritarian regimes with the Government’s supposed commitment to has been that if the situation in a particular country transparency on arms exports, and it raises a significant looks to be reasonably quiescent, there is a fairly issue of policy for the Committees and, therefore, the considerable presumption that the export should be House. The Government already make public the countries 119WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 120WH to which approved UK arms exports are going, but in I also asked: many cases we need to know not just the names of the “What is the Government’s present policy on approving new countries, but the end users in those countries. For licences for the export of arms and equipment to Hong Kong that example, will the end user be a Government body, a could be used for internal repression?” Government security authority or a civilian user? That We have just received the Business Secretary’s reply, a is key information, but at the moment, the Government key paragraph of which is: simply pick and choose when they will disclose the end “No licences for Hong Kong have been revoked, suspended or users. They gave the Committees the end users when we had Hong Kong removed from a multiple destination open licence. wanted to know who they were in relation to the export The Foreign Secretary has advised me that the use of tear gas by of dual-use chemicals to Syria. They told us the end the Hong Kong police was an uncharacteristic response at an users when we wanted to know who they were for sniper early stage of the protests, the scale of which caught the police by rifles exported to Ukraine. However, they have refused surprise, and was not indicative of a wider pattern of behaviour that would cross the threshold of criterion 2. In his view that, to give us that information for Russia on the basis that since that incident, the Hong Kong police have generally approached it may be made public, and the Committee will want to the protests carefully and proportionately. I have accepted this address that policy issue further. advice.” What is the Government’s present policy on arms I am sure that the Committees will want to reflect on exports to Russia? The Prime Minister said in the the Business Secretary’s response and then report to the House: House. My own view, having received that letter only a “On the issue of defence equipment, we already unilaterally short time ago, is that the reply seems to reflect the said—as did the US—that we would not sell further arms to more relaxed approach to arms exports that could be Russia”.—[Official Report, 21 July 2014; Vol. 584, c. 1157.] used for internal repression to which I have referred. It certainly makes me wonder whether, if the original I would be grateful if the Minister will clarify two wording in the October 2000 statement by the right points. First, when the Prime Minister said that we hon. Member for Neath had been retained instead of would not sell further arms to Russia, was he saying dropped, those arms exports of both lethal and non-lethal that all or only some will not be sold to Russia? If he equipment would have been approved in the first place. was saying just some, which will continue to be sold? Secondly, on new licence applications, will the Minister Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): Does the clarify whether the Prime Minister’s statement means right hon. Gentleman agree that, given the political that all new licence applications to Russia are being situation in Hong Kong and the concerns that have refused, or only some, and if only some, which? The been expressed internationally, there must be a real risk Minister’s clarification will be helpful. of a recurrence of exactly the sort of event during I am sure that there was great concern among hon. which tear gas was used against civilian protestors? Members on both sides of the House about some of the There has not yet been a resolution of that protest; it measures taken by the Hong Kong security authorities continues in Hong Kong today. against those who were exercising their right to demonstrate peacefully, and especially the fact that tear gas was used Sir John Stanley: There is certainly a risk of a recurrence against demonstrators. I am in no doubt that if the of exactly what the hon. Lady describes. I hope that a Metropolitan police had used tear gas against those lesson has been learned by the Hong Kong police that it who recently demonstrated peacefully in Parliament is not acceptable to use tear gas against those who are square, there would have been considerable concern and demonstrating peacefully. It remains a matter of concern perhaps outrage on both sides of the House. to me, and I am sure that the members of the Committees will want to look closely at the analysis that accompanied I thought that the Committees should do their own my letter to the Business Secretary. The Committees analysis of precisely what items of lethal and non-lethal will want to scrutinise closely whether it was wise in the equipment that could be used for internal repression the first instance to approve exports of the sort of Government had recently approved for Hong Kong. We equipment—lethal and non-lethal—to which I have took the information from the website of the Department referred. for Business, Innovation and Skills for the last two years In turning to Israel, I want to make it crystal clear at from January 2012. Our analysis showed that the the outset that I condemn unreservedly Hamas’s Government had approved tear gas exports to Hong indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israel. However, Israel Kong in four of the past eight quarters since January has serious questions to answer about its use of lethal 2012. If those licence approvals were given on the weapons that has resulted in the recent death of well grounds that the security authorities in Hong Kong over 2,000 Palestinians—men, women and children—in would never use tear gas against those demonstrating Gaza, the great majority of whom were certainly not peacefully, that was a questionable assumption, given Hamas fighters. mainland China’s track record of dealing with peaceful demonstrators. Our analysis of lethal equipment approved The Foreign Office, in its annual human rights report, for export to Hong Kong since January 2012 showed includes Israel—entirely rightly in my view—in its list that it included pistols, sniper rifles and gun silencers, of the 28 countries of top human rights concern to the which were all stated to be for use by a law-enforcement British Government. In our latest report, we have listed agency. for each of those countries the extant UK Government- approved arms export licences. Our report shows that I have written to the Business Secretary to ask a series Israel has the third largest number of extant arms of questions about the Government’s policy on arms export licences of those 28 countries, with a total of exports to Hong Kong, including: 470—a figure exceeded only by China and Saudi Arabia. “Have any extant Government approved export licences to In addition, our report shows that of those 28 countries’ Hong Kong been revoked or suspended?” extant arms export licences, the largest by value is 121WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 122WH

[Sir John Stanley] and Commonwealth Office’s list of 28 countries of top human rights concern where it seemed to us that Israel’s, totalling £8 billion in value. However, I want to specific exports appeared to be in breach of one or stress this very important point: that £8 billion is largely more of the Governments’ arms export criteria. In our made up of a gigantic cryptographic equipment export recommendations, we asked the Government to state order, valued at £7.7 billion, which the Defence Secretary, why those exports were approved. Those 12 countries when he was Minister of State at the Department for were: Afghanistan, China, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Libya, Business, Innovation and Skills, assured the Committees Russia, Saudi Arabia, Sri Lanka, Syria, Uzbekistan and was Yemen. We also asked the same question in relation to “for purely commercial end use.”—[Official Report, 21 November five other countries that are of concern to the Committees 2013; Vol. 570, c. 426WH.] but are not on the FCO’s list of 28. Those five countries Early in August, following what happened in Gaza, I were Argentina, Bahrain, Egypt, Tunisia and Ukraine. wrote to the Foreign Secretary, asking him to list the For most of those countries, as the House will see in controlled goods that the British Government had approved the Government’s response to our report—the Command for export to Israel and that the Government had Paper—the Government came back with a fairly formulaic reason to believe may have been used by Israel in the response, certainly as far as the opening of their reply recent military operations in Gaza. The Foreign Secretary was concerned. They used this formula: gave me his reply on 19 August, saying “The Government is satisfied that the currently extant licences “officials have judged it unlikely that many of the components for”— that were the subject of extant licences were for incorporation into systems that would be likely to be used offensively in Gaza”. and then they put in the name of the country— However, he went on to say, significantly in my view, “are compliant with the Consolidated Criteria”. that I want to assure the House that we shall not let the “12 licences have been identified…where, in the event of a resumption matter rest there. In our view, there is a substantial of significant hostilities, and on the basis of information currently mismatch between what has been disclosed about extant available to us, there could be a risk that the items might be used in the commission of a serious violation of international humanitarian licences and the Government’s arms export criteria. We law.” want to examine that further, and we shall take oral evidence shortly from the industry and non-governmental I think that is a very significant statement by the Foreign organisations, and from the Business Secretary and the Secretary, and it once again reinforces the Committees’ Foreign Secretary. recommendation for a significantly more cautious policy when dealing with the export of arms that can be used I turn to the other area of our report, which is for internal repression. international arms control agreements. Virtually all international arms control agreements are designed to Jeremy Corbyn: I have two points to make: first, was control or halt proliferation of both conventional weapons the right hon. Gentleman concerned about the supply and weapons of mass destruction. The Committees of drone aircraft parts to Israel during the recent operation have therefore extended their scrutiny of the Government’s and, I believe, since then? Secondly, was it ever identified policy to the entirety of international arms control exactly what the commercial purpose of the massive agreements. The Government give an explanation of £7.7 billion order was, and what the boundaries were their policy in relation to some of those agreements in between commercial use, civilian control and military their “United Kingdom Strategic Export Controls Annual use? Report”, but a number of key agreements are omitted. For example, there is no reference to the fissile material Sir John Stanley: The hon. Gentleman, again, is on to cut-off treaty, or the chemical weapons convention, or a very important area, and that again highlights the the biological and toxin weapons convention, or need to get much more transparency about end users. significantly, to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. He makes an extremely valid point, which applies even In the Committees’ last report, they recommended more strikingly in relation to non-democratic countries— that the Government, in their annual report, make their one-party state countries such as Russia and China, in coverage of international arms control agreements effect, where there is no clear boundary between the comprehensive, instead of only partial. It is disappointing Government sector and the private sector at all. That is that the Government, in their response to our questions why we need to get the Government to accept that these on their annual report, have not accepted that Committees, and therefore the House, are entitled to recommendation, but I assure the House that the end-use information. Committees will continue to scrutinise the Government’s On components for unmanned aerial vehicles, I can policy across the totality of international arms control only refer the hon. Gentleman to what I just read out agreements. from the Foreign Secretary’s letter; he specifically refers I come to a few of the specific agreements, starting to components that were for “incorporation into systems”. with the arms trade treaty. We warmly welcome the His view was that it was unlikely that they were used in British Government’s ratification of the arms trade Gaza, and I cannot take it any further than that, I am treaty on the first day it opened for ratification—2 April afraid. 2014. It is also very encouraging that the 50th country If I may, I will just complete my points on individual ratification, triggering the treaty’s legal entry into force, countries. There are obviously a very large number of has now been achieved. According to the Government individual countries and others want to speak, and I response to our report, entry into force will take place want them to have their full time, but I make this point: on Christmas eve 2014—an excellent Christmas present in our report, we identified 12 countries in the Foreign to all those concerned with international arms control. 123WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 124WH

However, it is particularly disappointing that of the of the UK Government’s arms control and arms export five permanent members of the UN Security Council control policies, rather than just resting on ministerial only the UK and France have ratified the treaty thus generalisations. far. The US has signed but not ratified, and China and The Committees are not remotely self-satisfied about Russia have neither signed nor ratified. The House will our scrutiny and are sure that we can improve it further, agree that it would be a dismally poor example to the but I believe that now in the UK Parliament we have the rest of the world if the remaining three members of most detailed and most open parliamentary scrutiny of the P5 failed to ratify the arms trade treaty. I hope that the Government’s arms export policies of any of the the British Government will continue to do their utmost major arms exporting countries, including the United to get those key countries to do so. States, where, under the relevant legislation, there are One of the most important arms control events in financial cut-off thresholds below which exports do not 2015, if not the most important, will be the nuclear have to be reported to Congress. We of course have no non-proliferation treaty review conference. In our report, such financial thresholds in our Parliament and in the we recommended that relevant legislation. “the Government states as fully as possible in its Response what In the course of this Parliament, the Committees on are now its objectives for the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty Arms Export Controls have substantially widened and Review Conference in 2015”. deepened our scrutiny of the Government’s policies. We did not get a particularly full response from the First, we have for the first time put alongside the list of Government, but they did come back with three objectives: the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s countries of “We want to agree further progress towards a world free from top human rights concern—the 28 countries to which I nuclear weapons and to highlight our actions in support of this; referred—the extant arms export licences approved by encourage action that will help to contain any threat of proliferation the British Government for each of those countries. or non-compliance with the NPT; and support the responsible That has been an extremely worthwhile and very global expansion of civil nuclear industries.” illuminating exercise. It has certainly left me, on certain I hope that the Government will be rather more points, with considerable concerns, but others will draw forthcoming, both to the Committees and to Parliament, their own conclusions. about their detailed and specific objectives, and how Secondly, we have very substantially extended our they propose to try to achieve them in the run-up to the scrutiny of the Government’s policies on international NPT review conference. arms control agreements. That, too, is a crucial area, One of the great and largely unsung achievements of even though the subject tends to receive not much the Ronald Reagan, Mikhail Gorbachev and Margaret public attention, in Parliament or outside. Thirdly, we Thatcher era was the intermediate-range nuclear forces have in this Parliament extended our scrutiny to a whole agreement of 1987. The INF treaty is far and away the series of additional export items, including drones, Tasers, most important nuclear disarmament agreement that cryptographic equipment, the UK Government’s gifted has been achieved since nuclear weapons were created. exports and Government-supported arms export It was also the first and only time that the US and exhibitions. Russia reached a nuclear disarmament agreement based I hope that we have discharged our scrutiny on zero-zero on each side. Against that background, it responsibilities to the House of Commons effectively in is of great concern that reports have appeared that this Parliament, and that we have created a strong and Russia may be in breach of its INF treaty obligations. I powerful springboard for our successor Committees to took that up with the Foreign Secretary, who in his carry forward scrutiny of the Government’s policies in reply said: the key area of arms control and arms export controls “The US State Department’s recent annual ‘compliance’ report in the next Parliament. (Adherence to and compliance with arms control, non-proliferation and disarmament agreements and commitments) states that ‘the United States has determined that the Russian Federation is in 2.19 pm violation of its obligations under the INF treaty not to possess, produce or flight-test a ground-launched cruise missile (GLCM) Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): Thank you with a range capability of 500 km to 5,500 km, or to possess or for giving me the opportunity to speak this afternoon, produce launchers of such missiles.” Mr Bayley. First, I want to look back to the debate last That is a very serious statement from the Foreign Secretary November about the work of the Committees on Arms and the US State Department. In my view, if the INF Export Controls, in which we spent quite a bit of time treaty breaks down, it will be the most serious reverse discussing concerns about past and possible future exports for multilateral nuclear disarmament that has so far to Syria. That was not surprising, given the recall vote occurred in the nuclear weapons era. I therefore urge that had taken place in September last year on arming the Government to do their utmost to mobilise the opposition groups in Syria, and given the media controversy maximum possible international pressure on Russia to that had emerged about chemical weapons components restore its adherence to its INF treaty obligations. coming from the United Kingdom. To conclude, Ministers are never happier than when At that debate, none of us talked or even knew about they can deal with difficult issues with comforting ISIL. Very few anticipated the descent into statelessness generalisations. The devil is always in the detail, and in that we are now witnessing in Libya, to which the Chair no area is that more true than arms export controls. I of the Committees, the right hon. Member for Tonbridge therefore make no apology for the length of the Committees’ and Malling (Sir John Stanley), has referred. Nobody latest report, which, taken with the all-important volumes could have foreseen the devastation and loss of innocent of evidence, runs to some 1,000 pages. I hope that it will life caused by the conflict in Gaza this summer. That prove a valuable resource to those in the House and is why I urge all Members of the House to consider outside who want to inform themselves about the actuality whether we are truly comfortable with our current arms 125WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 126WH

[Ann McKechin] As well as transparency, we need consistency. The Committees’ Chair has already stated his concerns about export strategy. If we cannot foresee what events will the definition of the common criteria, and I support his occur in the next 12 months, let alone the next five or views. The Government’s defence was to designate the 10 years, and as most arms exports have a considerably relevant paragraph longer shelf-life, there has never been such a need for a “as a general statement that formed part of the introductory principled, precautionary and risk-based approach in a text”. world of increasing volatility. As such, apparently, it was of no importance. That is, The Committees’ work has become more important frankly, nonsense. The text is designed to be read as a with each passing year of this Parliament. I take the whole, and the reader is entitled to presume that it is opportunity to convey my thanks, and that of the other consistent throughout. If it was not, a caveat would be members of the Committees, to our esteemed Chair, to added to that effect. There is no caveat in the definition our excellent Clerk, Keith Neary, and to the other staff of the common criteria, and it is simply unconvincing who service our Committees for their unstinting dedication, to try to present one retrospectively after our Committees thoroughness and unparalleled expertise in the preparation have been trying to probe the matter for almost two of the substantial and important report that we are years. That is not a mere grammatical point or a fixation discussing. on detail. In a volatile world, where many accepted As the Chair has indicated, our report contains wisdoms and assumptions have been torn apart and conclusions that are both positive and negative from the where western nations are increasingly castigated for Minister’s point of view. The work on the arms trade being driven purely by self-interest, the need for the treaty is a genuinely good sign. I am looking forward to highest standards and the greatest caution about those participating next week in the Inter-Parliamentary Union to whom we export arms is more pronounced than ever. conference here in London with delegates from across Much of the turmoil that we are witnessing in the the world on how we can use the treaty to make real middle east has developed from the impact of internal differences to people who live in conflict-afflicted areas. repression over prolonged periods of time, where, too I hope that the United Kingdom, as it has done throughout often, we in the west have not given sufficient weight to the arms trade treaty process, will continue to take a the consequent risks. leading role in the development of the treaty. The Another use of language in the Government’s lexicon increased direct involvement of Ministers in the examination to ease them out of difficult dilemmas is the term of sensitive export applications is also welcome. As the “significant hostilities”. Our annual report predated Chair has mentioned, I think that there is a direct the dreadful events during July and August in Gaza correlation between that involvement and the number and Israel, which resulted in the death of more than of licences that have been suspended and revoked in the 2,000 Palestinians, 67 Israelis and one foreign national, past few years. Good work has been done on ensuring as well as the indiscriminate destruction of schools, that applications are dealt with in a timely way and hospitals and homes and the displacement of more reducing the time-lapse in appeals. than 470,000 people. As the Chair has done, I condemn As the Committees have made clear, it is more than the operation of Hamas and the indiscriminate bombing disappointing that the Government’s record on transparency of Israel, but I also condemn the Israeli Government has been worryingly regressive this year. Although there for the disproportionate nature of the attacks on Gaza, is some merit in the aim of easing unnecessary bureaucracy the consequences of which the civilian population had by transferring more of our export licences from individual to take. to open, we must not do that at the expense of transparency The UK working group on arms has stated its concern on sensitive issues where there are many legitimate that the Government’s failure to suspend or revoke any concerns and where the geopolitics are changing at of the existing licences is contrary to their obligations great speed. under articles 6 and 7 of the arms trade treaty, within The scaling back of the transparency initiative, which which the Government have indicated that they are has included the reversal of previous public commitments operating. The Government did not even follow their by the Government to publish more information on the own domestic licensing criteria. As soon as hostilities type, value and quantity of equipment transferred under commenced in July, there was a clear risk that the open licences, sends a worrying message to the wider United Kingdom might be supplying military equipment world that our stated principles may be only superficially that could be used, as the former Foreign Secretary adhered to. The fact that that occurred at the same time indicated in a letter to the Committees, in the commission as the UK signed the arms trade treaty has exasperated of serious violations of international human rights and many of the NGOs that supported the campaign for the humanitarian law. The only proper response should treaty.The Government’s response to our recommendation have been the immediate suspension, if not the revocation, to reverse that decision was grudging. They said: of the 12 licences identified by the Government in their internal review. In the Government’s response of 19 August, “we concluded that the administrative burden would be too however, a new criterion appears to have been added. high.” Suspension or revocation would not occur unless there However, no substantive evidence from the industry was was offered to justify that conclusion, and there was no “a resumption of significant hostilities”. such evidence in the Government’s consultation exercise. I believe that the Committees will want to probe that As the UK working group pointed out, that phrase has issue more closely in our next set of evidence sessions set a new, arbitrary and subjective threshold and a next month. dangerous precedent. 127WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 128WH

I am looking forward to the Minister’s response, and state that they do not have time for routine meetings, I hope that he will tell us on what basis that new test was such has been the demand on their time due to the crises agreed. Was there a discussion between No. 10, the across the world in recent months. We need to stop Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the relying on old assumptions and appreciate that the risks Foreign Office or the Department for International are changing rapidly. Our response has to change, and Development about setting that qualification? I am sure arms exports are a key part of that policy. It can be all that the document went past every single relevant ministerial too easy for any Government to resort to shortcuts and desk before it was issued to our Committees. Has there sticking-plaster responses to avoid difficult choices, but been any discussion with our EU partners about a that must be resisted. Clear principles, consistently adhered common approach on exports to Israel following the to with maximum transparency must be the way forward. summer hostilities? Are the Government now prepared I urge the Government to continue working with our to remove that additional test and revert to their original Committees to achieve that aim. criteria? If so, will they reconsider the licences and act to suspend them if those criteria have not been met? 2.33 pm As always, the Committees’ report contains a paragraph on the annual international arms fair in London. Frankly, Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I am pleased it is time to put that embarrassing saga to an end. I fail that we are having the debate and look forward to the to understand why the review has had to take 18 months Minister’s response. This is the fourth day running that so that the results are conveniently announced as the I have had meetings with him but, if this helps him, Government wind up business in time for the general there are no plans for tomorrow. election in the hope that attention is diverted elsewhere I thank the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and so that we do not see the report’s conclusion. Given that Malling (Sir John Stanley) for his work as Chair of the the organisation of such a large and substantial trade Committees, for the analysis and the depth of their fair probably starts the day after the conclusion of the report, and for his preparedness to present it so well and previous fair, surely the organisers, participants and in such detail today. I hope that we will see elected in the Government staff tasked with enforcement need to next Parliament someone as diligent and determined to know what may be required by the end of this year. ensure proper scrutiny of arms exports as he has been Rather than waiting the full 18 months, is there any throughout this Parliament. We all owe him a debt of possibility that the Government can respond much thanks, and it is sad to think that he will not be here more speedily to conclude the review and provide our after the next election, unless he changes his mind. Committees with the review’s conclusions so that we I want to make a number of points, but I will be brief. may comment on the conclusions in our final report We should commend the late Robin Cook for our before Parliament is dissolved? having this debate and these reports, and for the increasing Finally, I am concerned about the increasing use of tradition of openness in the Foreign Office on arms surveillance equipment, including intrusion software, exports, human rights matters and recruitment policy in which I raised in last year’s debate. It is welcome that the diplomatic service of the future. The commendable changes to controls have been reached this year via the changes that he introduced during his time as Foreign Wassenaar agreement process, but we still await Secretary have stood the test of time. He will be remembered implementation. In their response to our report, the as a great Foreign Secretary for them, as well as for Government stated that they anticipate an amendment many other reasons. of the EU dual-use regulation by the end of this year. While I want to raise detailed points about arms Will the Minister confirm whether the timetable will exports, we should think about the generality for a definitely be adhered to? There has been a suggestion second. If we, as a country, export arms of any capacity that we may be falling behind the timetable for technical or capability to another jurisdiction or regime, and reasons. If so, will he confirm that the United Kingdom those arms are used to abuse the human rights of would consider unilateral measures, along the lines people within those communities or within that society, proposed earlier this year by our German partners? that removes our ability to complain about those abuses Have the Government conducted any recent review of because, in a sense, we are complicit due to our supplying the human rights concerns raised by a number of weapons that have been used to oppress people. In that organisations, including Privacy International, that the regard, the criteria adopted by the Committees and the current criteria may not be effectively catching exports Government’s response make interesting reading. I of surveillance equipment? Privacy International mentions commend the Foreign Office for how its responses have the UK Government’s export of such software to the been set out, because their helpful presentation means Indonesian Government with an export credit guarantee that one can quickly read the objection raised by the this year. Any information that the Minister is able to Committees and the Government’s response to it. provide today would be very helpful. If not, I suspect My first point is about Israel and Palestine. To reiterate that we will want to probe further when we have our what is said in the report’s introduction, we all witnessed oral evidence session. what happened in Gaza recently. It was not the first As I stated at the start of my speech, we live in a operation—I hope it is the last operation, but it certainly world of increasing volatility. Traumatic events with was not the first—because there has also been Operation long-lasting impacts that require complex responses are Cast Lead, among others. As my hon. Friend the Member occurring simultaneously in different regions of the for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) pointed out, we world. The resources of even the most technically have witnessed the destruction of Gaza several times sophisticated Governments have been stretched as over. There have been several worldwide appeals to never before. Last week I heard a member of the US rebuild Gaza only for it to be bombed and then rebuilt Administration with responsibility for defence matters again some years later. We are exporting surveillance 129WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 130WH

[Jeremy Corbyn] that the Prime Minister took the correct and quite brave decision to go to Jaffna during the Commonwealth and other equipment to Israel, and indeed we are importing Heads of Government meeting and he obviously expressed arms from Israel, but while the war crimes investigation concern about the treatment of Tamil people at that organised by the United Nations Human Rights Council stage. Are the Government now planning to resume the is ongoing, we need to think very carefully about our sale of equipment to Sri Lanka, or not? arms export policy for Israel. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North I hope that the Minister is able to explain in detail the made a point about the Defence Security and Equipment massive communications equipment order placed by International exhibition, which has become more than Israel. I think the expenditure that has been cited is a bit of an embarrassment. The hon. Member for £7.7 billion, which is absolutely massive. I do not know Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has pointed out what the equipment is for, but I cannot believe that a that there were people at the exhibition advertising the country of only 5 million people would want to spend sale of things such as electric shock equipment. Although so much on something that, while it could be used for that equipment is totally illegal in this country, it is on commercial mobile phone services or something else, sale in London at an exhibition sponsored by the British did not have a military component. I would be grateful Government. That is a cause of the deepest embarrassment, to know what inquiries were made, what end-user and I question whether we should be having the exhibition surveillance there has been for Israel, and whether there at all. will be restrictions on such exports in the future. Paragraphs 120 to 122 of the report helpfully refer to Paragraph 159 of the report describes the ongoing nuclear weapons and their effects. This area is covered issues in Bahrain. For reasons that I do not fully understand, by several treaties, including the non-proliferation treaty. the Government decided at some point that it was safe I asked the Minister a question about this on Monday, to sell anti-personnel, riot control-type equipment and and I will continue to do so. The Austrian Government armoured personnel carriers to Bahrain. I was at the are hosting a conference on the humanitarian effects of United Nations Human Rights Council a couple of nuclear weapons in Vienna at the beginning of December. months ago as a guest speaker in a seminar on human That is a continuation of a conference hosted by the rights in Bahrain and the sale of equipment there. I Mexican Government and, before that, by the Norwegian talked to people who had been brutally assaulted on the Government. Already, 135 nations have agreed to attend streets of the capital city for taking part in a democratic the conference, and 155 nations have supported New protest. I hesitate to say this, but it seems that some of Zealand’s statement on the invitation to the next conference. the equipment with which they were beaten may have This is a serious discussion about the effects of nuclear been supplied by Britain. I also talked to the families of weapons on humankind as a whole, including not only the medics who were threatened with permanent those people who have already been affected by the imprisonment, if not worse, for treating anyone who explosions nearly 70 years ago in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was injured during the disturbances. The human rights but those affected by nuclear testing elsewhere. I hope situation in Bahrain is very serious indeed, and I question that the Minister will tell me that the Government are at why we are selling any equipment at all to Bahrain in least seriously considering their invitation to the conference the current circumstances. and that they will encourage the other permanent members Likewise, paragraph 141 makes the point about the of the Security Council to attend, too. If we want to live repression of individuals and the unaccountable power in a nuclear-free world, as everyone claims to wish to, of the police on Saudi Arabia. What it does not say—I surely attending that conference has to be a good step am not making a criticism, but the report does not say forward. it—is that it is very difficult to find out a lot about what The report also cites the middle east weapons of mass is going on in Saudi Arabia because of the nature of its destruction-free zone conference, which is now apparently public media and the difficulties facing foreign journalists supported by everybody. I have sat through a number of who try to report what happens there. non-proliferation treaty review conferences during which I realise that Saudi Arabia is a massive arms market—not a number of countries—principally countries within only for Britain, but for other countries—and that the region, and usually countries in the Arab League—have seems to have an enormous impact on foreign policy raised a proposal from the 2000 review conference that relations with Saudi Arabia. However, the arms that to stop the proliferation and spread of nuclear weapons have now appeared among ISIL forces in Iraq and Syria across the middle east, as only Israel has nuclear weapons have all come from somewhere. They were not bought in the region at the moment, that middle east conference at the Defence Security and Equipment International should try to create a region free of nuclear weapons exhibition, or anywhere else; they were bought from and WMD. That has never happened, however. The people who imported them from the USA, Britain and Finnish Government were unable to organise it, but it Russia—all kinds of places all over the world—because has been reiterated that the conference will be held. At they had the financial resources to do so. Those arms the last review conference, every permanent member of were exported under licence at some point, and they the Security Council—Britain, France, Russia, China have arrived with ISIL and are being used to kill large and the United States—got up and said they supported numbers of people in the most abominable ways. We that. Iran supports it. and Israel has not said no to it, so therefore need to be a lot more assiduous and much I wonder what is the impediment to that conference tougher about what happens to the arms that we export. taking place, if all the players want to attend? I have deep concerns about Sri Lanka, which is also At the previous review conference, Egypt walked out. covered in the report. I would be grateful if the Minister It did not leave the NPT, but its representatives said that could give us an indication of the Government’s current they were angry at the lack of progress. If there is not thinking about the supply of arms to Sri Lanka. I know progress on non-proliferation in the middle east, 131WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 132WH proliferation will happen, because somebody else will export controls absolutely right. The arms industry be able to develop nuclear weapons—the financial resources generates annual revenues of more than £22 billion, are certainly available—and we will then be in a very including exports worth £6.5 billion per annum on dangerous situation. average during the past decade. Consequently, it makes I welcome the section in the Committees’ report a significant contribution to the economy of the UK. It about chemical weapons. If anything good has come also plays a vital role in training, up-skilling and developing out of the crisis in Syria during the past two years—this UK skills; it directly employs 162,400 staff in the UK, is probably the only thing—it is that Syria at least sustaining more than 100,000 other jobs through the acceded to the chemical weapons convention. The removal supply chain; and, crucially, given the highly skilled and destruction of chemical weapons from Syria is to nature of the workers in this industry, it employs nearly be applauded. That step forward shows what can be 5,000 apprentices across the sector. achieved when the EU, the USA, Russia and Iran It is within that context that it is important that the co-operate to try to achieve something. UK plays a key role in the international defence market, The Committees report that Angola, Burma, Israel, not only for the economic benefits but for the responsibilities North Korea and South Sudan have not signed the that the market places on the UK Government in that chemical weapons convention, however, and it is time international context. that they did. It is time that the whole world signed up As I said when I outlined where we were last year to it, because if we can have a worldwide convention on compared with where we are today, globalisation of small arms and landmines, we should be able to insist course brings countries into closer contact—mostly that there is a genuine worldwide agreement on the harmoniously, but as we have seen throughout the abolition of chemical weapons, and then move on to report, there are often areas of tension and friction other weapons. when that contact happens. We have to think carefully. It is too easy to say, “Sell It is right that we recognise the defence industry’s arms to somebody—out of sight, out of mind.” That part in providing security, both here in the UK and in comes back to bite us, with civil wars and conflict, and other countries as we help them to fulfil their right to with human rights abuses, some of which are carried self-defence. But that role, of course, comes with a out with weapons that have been made in this country. heavy responsibility.The industry itself has a responsibility, We should think carefully about that, before we so but the Government are responsible for overseeing arms glibly say, “We support the arms industry.” exports properly, ethically and robustly. I look forward to hearing the Minister respond to 2.46 pm some of the questions raised by the report. The right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), who Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Thank you replied to the debate last year, skipped all the big very much indeed, Mr Bayley, for calling me to speak. It questions asked in the report, so I hope that the new is always a great pleasure to serve on Committees or Minister, whom I congratulate on his recent elevation to attend debates with you in the Chair. the Foreign Office, will be able to respond in a more As I have done for the last few years when we have robust fashion. debated this issue, I thank and congratulate the right I want to look at Labour’s record in government to hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John give us some context for where we are now. It is worth Stanley) on the extensive work by his Committees, and reflecting on how we have come to this current position on the way in which he has driven the Committees of oversight and why we are able to talk about these forward during the past few years. He has given more issues today. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington than 40 years of public service both to this House and North (Jeremy Corbyn) rightly mentioned the role that to his constituents, and he will be a sad loss to discussion the former Foreign Secretary, Robin Cook, played in of this particular subject when he moves on after the putting pressure on the then Government in relation to next general election. Nevertheless, he has left a lasting the arms to Iraq inquiry. The inquiry culminated in the legacy in this place as the Chair of the Committees on Scott report and the bringing together of national export Arms Export Controls, and we wish him well in the next licensing criteria. He was proud to be able to bring that chapter of his political life outside this House, whichever about. It was one of the first issues addressed by the chapter that may be and wherever it may take him. Labour Government in 1997. It was not only the right We must scrutinise the Government’s policies in this thing to do; it brings transparency to this House on one sector, because arms control is critical. The Committees’ of the most important issues that we deal with, not only report is hugely valuable and must be highly commended. in terms of defence but in terms of responsibilities and As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North who we sell the items to around the world. On entering (Ann McKechin) said, 12 months ago we could not government, Labour introduced some of the toughest have projected forward to where we are today in the arms export regulations in the world at that time. international scene and landscape, and I hope that in It is also important to reflect on where we have come 12 months’ time—when we come back to look at any from. In 1999, when the tough arms export regulations further reports from the CAEC—things are better and were put together, it was the first time that the matter not worse than they were last year, because I am sure had been looked at in a UK context since 1939. If we that 12 months on from last year we would all agree that think the world has moved on significantly in the 12 months things are now worse, not better. since we last discussed these issues, the world had I will start by touching briefly on the contribution certainly moved on significantly between 1939 and 1999. that the UK defence sector makes, not only to our So we have had the consolidated criteria in 2000 and the country’s security but to our economy, because it shows Export Control Act 2002, and since 2004 the quarterly how important it is for the Government to get arms report has brought much greater scrutiny and transparency 133WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 134WH

[Ian Murray] The second issue that I wish to raise was mentioned in the report this year and last year—it might have been to our arms exports across the world. I am sure Members mentioned in previous reports. It is the issue of the of Parliament of all parties recognise the importance of brass plating of companies. We discussed this at length such changes. Although it is a difficult issue for a during last year’s debate, and as the report says, the Government to deal with, it is right that the Minister Government are still to take action. So what action has should be here to answer the key questions in the been taken over the past 12 months and what action is report. in the pipeline? It remains the strategic approach of the Opposition Although brass plating in a UK context works well—we that arms must not be sold to nations that will use them would not deny that that is the case—this is about brass for external aggression or internal repression, and that plating across international communities, where companies they should be used for defence. That reflects the written that have brass plating in this country operate against ministerial statement that the right hon. Member for the brass plating rules that would apply here when Tonbridge and Malling read out at the start. It was operating overseas. That must be looked at clearly, but made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath it again highlights the globalisation of the issue and (Mr Hain) in 2000. It is still the approach that we why the export controls market must be monitored champion in opposition. We would not deviate from closely. There are big issues around the international that. We recognise that nations have the right to defend co-operation that is required to deal with the exploitation their sovereign lands, but they do not have the right to of brass plating in this country. That is why the Minister oppress their people and use weaponry sold to them by should look into ways of developing a strategy, closing this country to stamp on legitimate demonstrations, as loopholes and collecting evidence—possibly in conjunction we have seen on our television screens in the past few with other countries—to get the necessary detail and months. put the measures that are needed in place to enable us to discontinue the UK registration of such companies that The Committees on Arms Export Controls report is exploit brass plating. a voluminous report: more than 1,000 pages. The Chair of the esteemed Committee, the right hon. Member for Brass plating in the UK should not mean irresponsibility Tonbridge and Malling, asked whether I had received a elsewhere. The report specifically touches on that. There copy of the report and whether I had read it. I am glad is much concern about the operation of front companies that it was published in an executive summary format, registered in the UK which operate overseas with impunity. which was a little more digestible. It is important that What does the Minister have to say about that particular the Government take on those 1,000 pages. It is not a issue? political report with which to kick the Government but The third issue that I want to raise is arms brokers. a very helpful document that runs through all the areas The Government issued a call for evidence in April this of concern about arms export controls. I want to year on a proposed pre-register of arms brokers. They concentrate on four aspects. Hon. Friends who have committed to provide a formal response by September. already spoken have concentrated on other aspects, but It will be November this weekend, and I am not aware I want to concentrate on the four that I think are the that the Government have kept to that timetable and most important in the report. produced a response. Will the Minister confirm when the Government will publish the result of their call for First, the change in the consolidation criteria. evidence on the need for a pre-licence register of arms Significantly, the report criticises the Government’s removal brokers? The Government have not been consistent in of a key line from the consolidated criteria in March their record of delivery in response to previous reports this year. We have mentioned this already. The line is: from the Committees. “An export licence will not be issued if the arguments for doing The fourth area that I want to address relates to some so are outweighed...by concern that the goods might be used for internal repression”. current case studies. There are a significant number. The report highlighted 12 countries that cause concern, Despite taking such positive steps with the arms trade and another five are mentioned. I want to concentrate treaty last year, we have now gone backwards in terms on three to highlight some of the issues in the report of the clarity that was required from the Government in that the Government need to address. that sentence. There has been justification from the [MR DAVID AMESS in the Chair] Government for the removal of those criteria— the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling has Of course, there is the issue of Russia, which has already mentioned that—but it significantly weakens entered into the Balkans, causing reverberations across the test for arms exports. We are concerned about its Europe and the region. There is the conflict between removal and urge the Government and the Minister to Israel and Palestine, which we saw in the summer, and reflect on that. Will the Minister explain—the right in recent weeks—mentioned already this afternoon—the hon. Member for Sevenoaks did not do so last year—why mass pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong that prompted there is dubiety about the removal of those particular a very strong and aggressive response from government criteria, and what is to become of “a more relaxed authorities, which was not in line with what we would approach” to arms exports? Have the Government made expect from anything that has been exported from this a substantial change to policy without acknowledging country. In all those events, questions have been raised it? I think the hon. Gentleman asked that before. The about the use of British exports. Indeed, some serious questions posed by my hon. Friend the Member for allegations and concerns must be addressed. Will the Glasgow North on this issue must be answered directly Minister concentrate on the big issues in his response? by the Minister today. If that is the only answer we get, In the case of Russia, the Government have given we will have moved on substantially from the report conflicting messages on exports to Russia. Both the that is in front of us. Prime Minster and the former Foreign Secretary, the 135WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 136WH right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), Finally, to travel a little further east, there are the gave categoric assurances, with the latter stating in issues in Hong Kong that are receiving international March this year: attention. At the start of the month, the Deputy Prime “The UK will now, with immediate effect, suspend all extant Minister summoned the Chinese ambassador to make licences and application processing for licences for direct export clear his dismay and alarm at China’s handling of to Russia for military and dual-use items destined for units of the pro-democracy demonstrations in Hong Kong. As The Russian armed forces or other state agencies which could be or Times reported on 29 September, in handling those are being deployed against Ukraine.”—[Official Report, 18 March demonstrations—Members have mentioned this—the 2014; Vol. 577, c. 658.] Hong Kong authorities used CS gas grenades made in That is a fairly categoric assurance from the former Britain to disperse protesters. While the Deputy Prime Foreign Secretary. However, it was reported that, in July Minister met with the Chinese, the Defence Secretary this year, 250 licences were still in force. dismissed the concerns raised about the use of CS gas Can the Minister update the House and the Committees on protesters and said that it was “a rather immaterial on whether the licences are still in operation? How point” whether the grenades were made in the UK. I am many have been revoked, suspended or reissued? What not sure whether anyone in this Chamber or anyone on assessment does he have for the Committees of the the Committees on Arms Export Controls would see licence system and its effectiveness in these instances? the use of UK-made CS gas in dispersing pro-democracy The second area of concern is the issue of Israel and protesters as “a rather immaterial point”. In fact, it is Palestine. We can all recall the spiral of violence over fundamental to the report we are discussing, and to the the summer that engulfed Gaza, southern Israel and the question of whether licences should be issued or revoked west bank. We condemn, as we always have in this in these situations. Does the Minister agree with that Chamber and across the House, the firing of rockets statement? What can we do on these issues? into Israel by Gaza-based militants. No Government on The Chair of the Committees said, in his useful earth would tolerate such attacks on their citizens, but speech on the report, that he wrote to the Secretary of the disproportionate response, yet again—my hon. Friend State for Business, Innovation and Skills on these gas the Member for Islington North mentioned Operation canisters. When I looked into that, the Chair had not Cast Lead—by the Israeli Government to Gaza fuels received a response, but he indicated to the Chamber even more conflict and even more distrust of the system. that he has now. Will the Minister clarify the points That is why the Government have to look seriously at raised by the Business Secretary’s response to that letter? whether the UK’s arms export controls and licences are Have the licences been revoked? helping the situation or making it worse. In conclusion, I would welcome clarity from the The Government’s internal review identified 12 specific Government on some of these issues, and in particular licences covering a range of military equipment—including on their commitment to not diluting this country’s components for military radar systems, combat aircraft approach to export licences. Does the Minister still and tanks—which, as the review states, stand by the commitment that he will not approve an “could be part of equipment used by the Israel Defence Forces in export licence if he believes that there is a clear risk that Gaza.” an export might be used for internal repression? We The review shows that there have been particular issues support him in that approach, which dates back to with Israel and Palestine. I was shocked to hear of the 2000, and would welcome clarity on whether he has letter that was sent to the Chair of the Committees by changed it. the Foreign Secretary. To quote it directly, the Foreign In the debate on the Committees’ report last year, Secretary was concerned that there was several Members urged the Government to adopt a “a serious violation of international humanitarian law” more cautious approach to arms exports approval. The in Israel’s response. We demand an immediate publication ability to revoke or suspend export licenses is a significant of the Government’s review. Our view was that no arms and important function, but as the Chair said, once the should be exported under existing licences while doubts bullets have bolted, they have bolted irreversibly. That is remain as to whether any equipment could be used for one of the issues that we have seen in the 12 countries of internal repression, the abuse of human rights or to concern. We believe that the Government should not provoke prolonged arm conflict or violate international only take a more cautious approach but strengthen the humanitarian law. prior scrutiny of licenses, and not limit scrutiny to the It is particularly important that we have transparency review of ministerial decisions only when they have on the system in this case. The British public need already been taken. assurances that the UK’s arms export sales have not As my right hon. Friends the Members for Paisley been in contradiction of the consolidated criteria and and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) and for East have not contributed to that particular conflict. Directly Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) would have said in their on Israel and Palestine, does the Minister agree that the respective roles as shadow Foreign Secretary and shadow Government should suspend or revoke any licences for Secretary of State for International Development, lessons export to Israel of controlled items where there is a could be learned from others in the international clear risk, or even a hint of a risk, that they will be used community. In Sweden, for example, there is an expert in combat operations in the occupied territories of advisory body, headed by an independent official responsible Palestine? I am not an avid follower of the Minister on for the oversight of export licensing, which advises on Twitter, but he tweeted a press release this morning delicate pre-licence decisions before a Minister gives the condemning Israel for the continued building of illegal final approval. In the US, Congress is given prior notification settlements in East Jerusalem. The Israel-Palestine peace of all foreign military sales that are over specific cost process is fragile, and we should do all we can to ensure thresholds and are planned for the following year and that arms exports are not contributing to the problem. can object ahead of the Government making a final 137WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 138WH

[Ian Murray] or twice, but a number of times—in comments about how appallingly the last Minister failed to answer all the decision. Those mechanisms ensure that a more cautious questions posed to him. I should make it clear that I am approach is taken and that there is no rush to licence substituting for the Minister who should have replied to approval. the debate, so I am not sure whether I will fare any Alongside those domestic guidelines, there must be better, although I can give a commitment that if I am global ones, too. A global industry requires global unable to answer any questions, I will endeavour to guidelines. The Government are to be congratulated on write to right hon. and hon. Members individually. In their efforts on the arms trade treaty. We all welcome that way, it will not be me who gets the grief next year, that being signed as early as possible. It will significantly when Members return to this subject after the next boost efforts to stem the flow of arms to some of the general election. world’s most volatile places and help end the transfer of I thank the shadow Minister for his words, his tone weapons used to commit genocide, crimes against humanity and the constructive manner in which he expressed his and war crimes. I urge the Minister and the Government thoughts and concerns. He spelled out the situation to use that opportunity to show international leadership Britain finds itself in. The defence industry is indeed and push for ratification in all countries, and by the sizeable, and it is important for jobs and UK security, as largest players in the globalised economy, particularly well as in terms of the UK playing a responsible role on given the size of the UK defence industry. the international stage. The hon. Gentleman mentioned Finally, I would be grateful if the Minister commented a number of issues, and I will do my best to answer him. on the steps the Government have taken to encourage I should say how touched I am that he follows me on countries to ratify the treaty. It was signed with such Twitter, although I am afraid I have not reciprocated. fanfare last year and is such an important contribution When I leave here, however, I will certainly endeavour to to the arms trade in this country and in the international make up for that misdemeanour. environment. I close by once again paying tribute to the Chair of the Committees on Arms Export Controls, Ian Murray: I will block you. and all the members of those Committees, who are each Mr Ellwood: I hope that is as aggressive as the debate chosen from Select Committees. The Chair’s post is a gets. Let me reiterate that the Government take their distinguished one; he deserves great credit for the legacy arms export responsibilities very seriously and aim to that he has left the House in these reports. I hope that operate one of the most rigorous and transparent arms the Minister will fulfil that superb legacy and answer all export control systems in the world. Our core objective the questions the Chair posed, not only in his speech on in export licensing is to promote global security, while the report, but in the report itself. facilitating responsible exports. That means preventing controlled goods from falling into the wrong hands. It 3.8 pm also means that we must not impede legitimate trade in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign defence and security goods. and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood): It is a All export licence applications are carefully assessed pleasure, Mr Amess, to work under your chairmanship on a case-by-case basis against the consolidated EU today. It is also a pleasure to respond to this important and national arms export licensing criteria, taking into debate on the Committees’ report. I begin by giving an account all relevant factors at the time of the application, apology on behalf of the Minister for Business and including the prevailing circumstances in the recipient Enterprise, who should be responding to the report. country, the nature of the goods, the identity of the end That is his place, but unfortunately, as with other members user and the stated end use. A licence will not be issued of the Committees on Arms Export Controls, he is if doing so would be inconsistent with any provision of involved in a Bill Committee elsewhere and sends his the criteria, including if there is a clear risk that the apologies. It is appropriate, however, for the Foreign proposed export might be used for internal repression Office to be involved. We scrutinise the process of or external aggression. approving or not approving arms exports, although the The Government support the responsible trade in final decision is with the Department for Business, defence equipment. All nations have the right to protect Innovation and Skills, not the Foreign Office. I am themselves, as enshrined in article 51 of the UN charter, delighted to be here anyway. and they have the right to acquire the means to do so. I join others in paying tribute to my right hon. Friend Moreover, defence and security exports help to strengthen the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley) the UK economy and to support growth. As the shadow for his tireless and dedicated work in chairing the Minister said, the industry employs tens of thousands Committees, which are unique in bringing together the of people across the UK. In 2013, the value of UK skill sets of other Committees. I was not aware that this defence and security exports rose to £13 billion—a was his final report. I do not know what he will find 13% increase on the £11.5 billion recorded in 2012. himself doing next year, but he will probably want to Those exports also helped the UK to forge close write about this issue in another context, because he has relationships with allies and partners in support of lived and breathed it for so long. The House is indebted international security objectives. to him for his dedication and commitment to this We must therefore seek to operate an efficient export important subject. We are grateful for the knowledge licensing system that not only ensures rigorous export and expertise he has brought to the House over many controls, but facilitates responsible exports. The case-by-case years, and we thank him for his hard work. assessment of export licence applications remains the I also thank other members of the Committees for most effective way to balance those concerns. We follow their contributions, and I will do my best to answer a clear and well-understood procedure for each application, their points. A challenge was thrown down—not once which involves circulating expert evidence to other 139WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 140WH

Departments as a matter of routine, to make the best Mr Ellwood: I am grateful for that clarification. I assessment possible, based on the evidence available at hope that what I have said, and what my right hon. the time. Friend has now said, has set the record straight. Indeed, I want directly to address the perception that, in the my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, relatively rare instances where licences are subsequently Innovation and Skills reaffirmed the “clear risk” test in revoked or suspended, the export licensing system is in criterion 2 while amending the consolidated criteria in some way broken. That is certainly not the case. In March. 2012, the then Foreign Secretary conducted a review of Let me turn now to Russia, which a number of right arms exports, which found that there were no fundamental hon. and hon. Members have mentioned. As I have flaws with the export licensing system. However, the outlined, the flexibility to respond to changing circumstances review did identify some areas where the system could in any export destination is an essential aspect of our be strengthened. As a result of that review, a suspension export licensing system. Our reaction to the events this mechanism was introduced to ensure greater responsiveness year in Ukraine provides a good example of our to changing circumstances overseas. responsiveness and our determination to ensure that The suspension mechanism allows for the suspension UK exports do not contribute to internal repression or of pending licence applications to countries experiencing external aggression. a sharp deterioration in security or stability such that it Restrictive measures have been put in place against is not possible to make a clear assessment of whether Russia, with a view to increasing the costs of Russian the consolidated criteria have been met. Following EU action to undermine Ukraine’s territorial integrity and Council decisions, it has now been applied to extant sovereignty, and promoting a peaceful settlement of the licences as well as pending applications. The suspension crisis. It is worth making a distinction between a collective of licences should, therefore, be viewed not as an admission desire to bring in sanctions, which are themselves an that there has been a mistake, but as an indication that, attempt to affect behaviour, and taking action when on the contrary, the system is appropriately in tune with weapons systems or other equipment that has been sold the reality that circumstances change and that the export are used in an oppressive manner. There is a distinction licensing system must be able to react appropriately. between the two, but they can lead to the same thing, Moreover, we have the power to revoke any licence if which is the removal of some form of arms exports. we judge that changed circumstances mean that it is no In the absence of agreement among EU partners on longer consistent with the consolidated criteria. Again, taking concerted action against Russia, the UK took revocations should be viewed as indicative of the fact the initiative in reacting to the deterioration in events in that the system can respond to change, not as a sign that Ukraine by announcing the national suspension of a our case-by-case assessment of export licence applications number of export licences in March, and that is an is flawed. We make the best decision possible at the time example of what I was just talking about. The aim was of each application, and if circumstances change, we to restrict exports of equipment to the Russian military can react appropriately. Action to revoke or suspend that could be used in Ukraine. As we did before announcing licences is, then, not a sign that the system is broken; in the action, we encouraged other EU member states to fact, the flexibility to respond effectively to change is a follow suit. The national suspension was superseded by sign of health and demonstrates how seriously the sanctions against Russia, introduced by the EU in July. Government take the guiding principle of responsible The package included an arms embargo and prohibitions exports. on the export of certain technologies suited to the oil Having set out that overview, I would like to touch on industry, on the export of dual-use equipment to Russia a number of specific issues my right hon. Friend and for military end use, and on the provision of related others have raised. First, however, it would be useful services. briefly to reiterate the Government’s policy on assessing Further restrictive measures were announced in the risk of goods being used for internal repression. September in response to Russia’s actions destabilising Criterion 2 of the consolidated criteria, which has the situation in Ukraine. In addition, during that period been mentioned a number of times, states that an we reviewed existing export licences for Russia and took export licence application should be refused if there is a the decision to revoke 39 standard individual export “clear risk” that the goods in question might be used for licences and seven open individual export licences, and internal repression or in the commission of a serious to remove Russia as a permitted destination for 50 multi- violation of international humanitarian law. destination open individual export licences. The Some confusion arose following the former Foreign Government will continue to monitor conditions in Secretary’s evidence to the Committees in 2012, which Ukraine and will keep export licensing restrictions under was interpreted as suggesting that the “clear risk” test in review. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge criterion 2 had been dropped. Let me emphasise: the and Malling asked whether what the Prime Minister threshold of clear risk in criterion 2 has been the policy said on the matter referred to all or only some licences, of successive Governments since the criteria were established and if I may, I shall write to him about that detail. in 2000, and it remains our policy. As confirmed in I am limited in what I can say about the recent recent correspondence with the Committees, we have no conflict in Israel and Gaza, because it is the subject of plans to change that policy. ongoing legal proceedings. As hon. Members may know, the Government conducted a careful analysis of existing Sir John Stanley: May I correct the Minister on the export licences for Israel. That review, the outcome of point he has just made? There was no misunderstanding which was announced on 12 August, found that the vast and no suggestion in the Committees on Arms Export majority of exports currently licensed are not for items Control that the criterion 2 “clear risk” test had been that could be used by Israeli forces in operations in dropped by the Government at any point. Gaza. During the review period, no new licences were 141WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 142WH

[Mr Ellwood] target of completing 99% of applications within 60 working days. Year-to-date performance to the end of September issued to supply equipment to the Israel defence forces. on the primary target stands at 76%. We have now had a However, as was mentioned, in the review, 12 licences full year of working towards meeting the new ambitious for components were identified as potentially able to secondary target of 99%; the target previously stood at contribute to equipment that could be used by the Israel 95%. The new target was introduced to improve the defence forces in Gaza. efficiency of the licensing system further. As of the end Following the review, the Government announced of September, I am pleased to announce that we are that if there was a resumption of significant hostilities, now meeting the new target for the year to date. the 12 licences would be suspended. In addition, the My right hon. Friend the Business Secretary decided Government continue to monitor the situation in Israel last year that it was appropriate to look at the proposal and Gaza closely, and existing licences that are found to for a pre-licensing register of arms brokers; that has be no longer consistent with the consolidated criteria been mentioned in the debate. The Export Control will be revoked. It remains our overarching priority to Organisation made a public call for evidence this year ensure that there is a lasting settlement that enables to help to gather the necessary evidence to allow the Israelis and Palestinians to live alongside one another Government to decide whether to introduce such a securely and peacefully.The UK Government will continue register. Our emphasis when looking at the proposal to work closely with colleagues in the EU and elsewhere has been on the relative costs and benefits, and the to help achieve that. I visited Gaza, Jerusalem and likely effectiveness. The feedback from the call for evidence Israel last month and saw what was happening on the is being analysed and discussed. We intend to publish ground. I am conscious of the mood of the House, after the results as soon as possible, most likely towards the the Palestine debate last week. We will continue to end of the year. monitor the situation. The Government remain committed to greater There has been extensive interest in the recent protests transparency in export licensing, as demonstrated by in Hong Kong and the use of tear gas by the Hong the transparency initiative announced last year, which Kong police. There is one extant open individual export expanded reporting activity under certain open export licence to Hong Kong that includes tear gas. After licences. As has been explained to the Committees careful consideration, the Government have decided previously, in making the final preparations for the that no action should be taken to revoke or suspend it. initiative, it became apparent that we may not have had In our assessment, the use of tear gas by the Hong the right balance between the twin objectives of increasing Kong police, with whom we have a close relationship, transparency and avoiding unnecessary bureaucratic was judged to be an uncharacteristic response at an burdens. In particular, my right hon. Friend the Business early stage of the protest and not indicative of a wider Secretary became concerned that the proposed reporting pattern of behaviour that would cross the threshold of would put UK exporters at a disadvantage in relation to criterion 2 of the consolidated criteria. exporters from other countries. That is why he decided that users of certain open licences would be required to Ian Murray: I am grateful to the Minister for answering make reports on their usage of those licences on an the questions that have been asked. He has said that annual basis, rather than quarterly as originally envisaged. that use of tear gas was uncharacteristic, so will he give It is important to reiterate that we have not reduced a commitment that if it were to transpire that the Hong the overall level of reporting; we will publish considerably Kong authorities used it again, the licence would be more information about the usage of open licences than revoked? we do now. All such initiatives are subject to review, but the new reporting requirements came into place at the Mr Ellwood: I do not want to move into hypothetical start of this year, and the data for this year are due to be situations. We will continue to review matters, but I published in 2015. It is important to allow sufficient have explained the situation as it stands. If events move time for the new measures to be established before we forward and circumstances change, we will review that can consider whether further changes are necessary. We and react responsibly according to criterion 2. therefore intend to commence a review of the initiative The Export Control Organisation has continued to towards the end of the year. perform efficiently over the past year in spite of various I want to touch on the arms trade treaty. I had the pressures. The ECO has maintained its performance privilege of participating in a number of decisions at targets despite an increasing volume of licence applications, the UN General Assembly in September. I am delighted with standard individual export licences up 3% on last to say that 54 countries have now ratified the treaty, year, and ECO’s high priority advice service to Her which will enter into force on 24 December—Christmas Majesty’s Revenue and Customs on the licensability of eve. The successful conclusion of the arms trade treaty goods stopped at ports and airports up 30% in the same was a significant achievement for the UN, but also for period. Together with extra work caused by the Russia the UK, which has worked tirelessly with the co-authors sanctions, that has meant increased pressures on the group, and bilaterally. We are, as has been requested, ECO, which has worked hard to maintain both service encouraging other nations, in the course of regular levels for its customers and the robustness of our export contact with them and via the EU ATT outreach project, controls, as the objective of giving applicants a decision to sign and ratify it. The UK places a great deal of as quickly as possible cannot outweigh the need to give importance on as many nations signing up as possible; every application very careful consideration. and I believe that we are heading in that direction. The ECO has two main targets for processing export The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) licence applications: a primary target to process 70% of spoke about the spread of conflict in Libya and Syria, applications within 20 working days, and a secondary and that is a massive concern for the Government—and 143WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 144WH for others. We are concerned about the flow of weapons I do not have the details to respond to the hon. systems, and the loss of control over what is happening Gentleman on Sri Lanka, but he mentioned the Prime spilling down to Mali, and so forth. The situation Minister’s visit. It was bold to go out and make a case reflects the changing circumstances that we must deal about the Tamil people’s concerns. I will write to him with. The hon. Lady also spoke about intrusion software. regarding our position on arms exports and Sri Lanka. The pace of the technology that we are aware of can Finally, the hon. Gentleman mentioned the Vienna sometimes run ahead of legislation, so the work of the conference, which we discussed at Foreign and Committees and the Government to keep pace with Commonwealth questions. The trouble is that it is unclear changing technology is always important. what the conference wants to achieve other than the It is worth mentioning that the controls on monitoring removal of all nuclear weapons. It is Britain’s long-term equipment were agreed in the 2011 Wassenaar arrangement, intention to reach that position, but if we drop our and implementation through the EU dual-use regulation guard before other hostile countries with nuclear weapons amendment is expected by the end of 2014. There will a do, we will leave ourselves vulnerable. We share the publication, and a journal put forward, in due course. long-term ambition, but differ on how we will get there. The shadow Minister mentioned brass-plate companies and enforcement action. Existing legislation would, in Ann McKechin: Will the Minister confirm—or, if he certain circumstances, allow such action to be taken cannot do so today, write to confirm—whether his against brass-plate companies and their officers. However, Department or fellow Ministers are assured that any action must be justified by sufficient evidence. With implementation will occur by the end of this year? If other relevant agencies, the Government continue to not, are alternatives being considered? pursue the possibility of using other legislation to discontinue the UK registration of such companies on public interest grounds. As he will appreciate, the issue Mr Ellwood: That was going to be my next point. I is complex and raises difficult questions about the nature cannot give the hon. Lady an answer today, but I had of the evidence that might be disclosed in any proceedings. written down “timetable”. I will certainly get in touch We will update the Committees and the shadow Minister with her to provide more information. when any firm conclusions have been reached. The hon. Lady and others mentioned the Defence In conclusion, I again thank my right hon. Friend the and Security Equipment International exhibition. I have Member for Tonbridge and Malling and other hon. visited it many times and find it a little bizarre that one Members for their attendance today. I reiterate my can buy things that are illegal in this country. The thanks to the Committees on Arms Export Controls for Government are reviewing their response to DSEI 2013 their report and work. The Committees’ scrutiny remains to consider any improvements to the processes that can an important aid to the licensing process, and I continue be made before next year’s event. Officials from across to look forward to their contributions and continuing Government will continue to work closely with Clarion dialogue over the coming year. Events to ensure that exhibitors comply with export and trade controls and understand their obligations. 3.35 pm The hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Sir John Stanley: I thank all hon. Members for their Corbyn)—I almost called him my hon. Friend—and I generous comments on my endeavours as Chair of the have met four times in debates or meetings over the past Committees on Arms Export Controls. It is a unique few days. I will be astonished if we meet tomorrow at conjunction of Committees to chair. I have no equestrian the Conservative party away day, but he is always welcome. background at all, but I have likened it to trying to get a I join him in paying tribute to the late Robin Cook, who 16-horse stagecoach moving reasonably well in the same pioneered much of the work that we are now taking direction, which is particularly difficult when there is no forward. That is his legacy. Members on both sides of ability to vote. We have achieved a lot even in just the House remember him for that, pay tribute to the getting out the reports that we have. I thank hon. work that he did in ensuring that Britain plays a more Members for their kind personal comments. I hope that responsible role in arms exports, and encourage other the dedicated contributions of the hon. Members for countries to do the same. Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) and for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) will be big plusses in their The hon. Gentleman also mentioned Gaza and the getting elected to one of the four Select Committees in cycle of destruction. The matter came up at the UN the next Parliament. Perhaps one of them may end up General Assembly; Ban Ki-moon, the Secretary-General, as my successor. I wish them well. was almost in tears when discussing whether destruction, reconstruction, destruction, and then reconstruction is I will briefly make one comment about the excellent what now happens. I digress slightly, but Britain must speech made by the hon. Member for Glasgow North. play its part with the EU and the international community She rightly and acutely picked up that the Government to try to break that cycle. appear to have erected an additional hurdle before revocations or suspensions can take place to extant The hon. Gentleman also raised concerns about Bahrain. arms exports licences to Israel. I want to highlight to There is no evidence of UK equipment sold to Bahrain her an extraordinary contradiction that I am sure we being used in breach of the EU or national consolidated will want to pursue. The Government have on the one criteria on export licensing, but we have refused licences hand dropped the broad test in the October 2000 statement to Bahrain for internal security forces, where we are not of the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) from satisfied about the risks around internal repression. If the consolidated criteria, but they have brought it back he has anymore thoughts on that, he can write to me when dealing with suspensions. We made that point in and I will be delighted to respond. paragraph 126 of our report: 145WH Arms Exports and Controls30 OCTOBER 2014 Arms Exports and Controls 146WH

[Sir John Stanley] internal repression, the Committees recommend that this now omitted wording is re-introduced into the Government’s arms “The Committees conclude that the Government’s decision to exports controls policy.” apply the broad test of ‘equipment which might be used for The hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that that was internal repression’ rather than the narrow test of ‘clear risk that a unanimous recommendation of all parties on all four the proposed export might be used for internal repression’ for of the Select Committees concerned, which should give deciding whether arms export licences should be suspended is welcome.” him some back-up to the welcome policy position that he enunciated. I cannot begin to explain the Government’s contradictory position on that key point, but I am sure that we will be I am grateful to the Minister for responding to the considering it further in Committee. debate and for saying that he will send us answers in writing to those questions that he has not been able to Again, I am grateful to the hon. Member for Islington deal with. I would be grateful if he could send me a North, who has been a dedicated attender of our debates. copy as well, if that is in order, because I will obviously As for the four countries to which he referred specifically, want to know what he says in response to the points he will be glad to know that they will all continue to be made by other colleagues. the subject of detailed scrutiny by the Committees. Three of the countries, Israel, Saudi Arabia and I must make it clear to the Minister that he did not Sri Lanka, are of course among the Foreign and address the fundamental policy issue as far as arms Commonwealth Office’s 28 countries of top human exports and internal repression are concerned. He made rights concern. He must have been glad to see that the a number of references to criterion 2, what we call the Committees on their own initiative have added Bahrain narrow test or the “clear risk” test, which is a very to the five other countries of concern that we highlighted limited test for a very simple reason. When can a risk be and gave details of in our report. said to be clear? We can pretty well sell almost anything to anyone by saying, “There is a risk, but it isn’t clear, so As I heard it, the hon. Member for Edinburgh South we can approve the export licence.” That is the acute (Ian Murray) made what I consider to be an extremely limitation of that test. If someone looks at our report welcome policy commitment on behalf of the Opposition and looks at the list of what has been approved by the Front Bench. I understood him to be saying that it is Government, and for sale to which particular regimes, it now the policy of the Opposition to restore the dropped can be seen just what a very limited test that is. That is wording that came from the October 2000 statement by why the Committees attached such importance to the the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). restoration of the broad test—we have quoted this If the hon. Gentleman is looking for any reinforcement successively in the debate and I quote it for a final of the Opposition Front-Bench position from the Back time—if we are to deal seriously and genuinely with not Benches, I draw his attention to paragraph 123 of our allowing to go out of the UK with Government approval report: British weapons that “As the broad test that: ‘An export licence will not be issued if “might be used for internal repression”. the arguments for doing so are outweighed by […] concern that Question put and agreed to. the goods might be used for internal repression’, which has been Government policy since October 2000, provides an important safeguard against military and dual-use goods, components, software 3.42 pm and technology being exported from the UK from being used for Sitting adjourned. 25WS Written Statements30 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 26WS

care and provide more dignity for older and vulnerable Written Statements people, as well as reducing accident and emergency admissions and lengths of stay in hospital. Thursday 30 October 2014 People are happier and healthier when they have family and friends nearby. So investing in care services TREASURY that are tailored to individual needs make sense. It means people can stay at home for longer, which is Financial Policy Committee (Housing Market Tools) better for everyone involved. They can also be helped back to health in high-quality The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea community care centres or leave hospital more quickly Leadsom): The Government have today published a when they do have to be admitted. This will not only consultation on granting the independent Financial improve services and reduce waste, it will give elderly Policy Committee new powers over the UK’s housing people the dignity and independence they deserve in market. later life. In his Mansion House speech on 12 June 2014 the This has been made possible by the Government’s Chancellor committed to ensuring that the FPC has, £5.3 billion better care fund, initially set at £3.8 billion “all the weapons it needs to guard against risks in the housing but which has increased significantly following additional market.” local investment. This will bring GPs, community nurses, He announced his intention to give the FPC, and care workers together so they can provide the better “new powers over mortgages, including over the size of mortgage care closer to home that keeps people independent and loans as a share of family incomes or the value of the house.” healthy for longer, preventing unnecessary stays in hospital He said that the Treasury would consult on the tools, and giving families more confidence over how their and that they would be in place before the end of this loved ones are looked after. Parliament. People will be able to get the right care when and In response to the Chancellor’s announcement, on where they need it, including at the weekend, thanks to 2 October 2014, the FPC recommended that it be a new national standard of seven-day health and social granted the power to direct the Prudential Regulation care. The local plans being approved today aim to Authority (PRA) and Financial Conduct Authority prevent around 160,000 accident and emergency admissions, (FCA) to require regulated lenders to place limits on 2,000 care home admissions and result in over 100,000 fewer owner-occupied and buy-to-let mortgage lending by delayed discharges, meaning people get home from reference to: hospital more quickly when they do have to be admitted. Loan-to-value (LTV) ratios; and NHS England also estimates that, based on local Debt-to-income (DTI) ratios, including interest coverage ratios plans, the fund will be supporting at least 18,000 individuals (ICR) in respect of buy-to-let lending. in roles delivering care out in the community. This will In response to this recommendation by the FPC, the be a range of social workers, occupational therapists, Government are consulting on legislating to give the care navigators, doctors and nurses, deployed based on FPC powers of direction over LTV limits and DTI local needs and delivering outside of the hospital. limits in respect of owner-occupied mortgages. Currently, Developed together by councils and local NHS the FPC can only make recommendations in relation to organisations, these plans are the centrepiece of the these tools. The Government intend to consult separately Government’s commitment to joining up the health and in 2015 on the FPC’s recommendations that it be granted care system. They will help to put the service user first powers of direction in respect of the buy-to-let mortgage and make this vision for joined-up care a reality across market, with a view to building an in-depth evidence the country for the first time. base on how the operation of the UK buy-to-let housing I would urge hon. Members to read their own local market may carry risks to financial stability. plan and support their health and wellbeing board in The consultation that has been published today contains developing its plans to give the elderly more dignity in draft secondary legislation that will provide the Financial later life. Policy Committee with the new powers of direction. I am also grateful for support from the Chief Secretary The Treasury seeks responses to the consultation by to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Inverness, 28 November 2014, in advance of laying the secondary Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Danny Alexander), legislation before Parliament in early 2015. the Minister of State, Department of Health, my right Copies of the consultation document The Financial hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Policy Committee’s housing market tools have been Lamb), who has responsibility for care and support, the deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and published Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local on the HM Treasury website. Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins), who has responsibility for local government, NHS England and the Local Government Association. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Better Care Fund FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE

Afghanistan (Progress Report) The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and I are today The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth approving plans to join up health and care services Affairs (Mr Philip Hammond): I wish to inform the across the country for the first time. This will improve House that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, 27WS Written Statements30 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 28WS together with the Ministry of Defence and the Department Department was exempt from the first round of reviews for International Development, is today publishing the in 2011-14. In order to ensure that the Department is an 41st progress report on developments in Afghanistan effective system steward and can be assured of all the since November 2010. bodies it is responsible for, we have extended the programme After a protracted period of negotiation, Dr Ashraf of reviews over the next three years to all of its arm’s Ghani and Dr Abdullah Abduallah signed the agreement length bodies and Executive agencies. forming a National Unity Government at the presidential The reviews of the aforementioned bodies have been palace on 21 September. The agreement committed selected to commence during the first year of the Dr Ghani and Dr Abdullah to creating a Chief Executive programme (2014-15). The reviews will be conducted in Officer (CEO) position by presidential decree straight two stages. The first stage will examine the continuing after the inauguration and to holding a Loya Jirga need for the function and whether the organisation’s within two years to consider amending the constitution form, including operating at arm’s length from government, to formalise the CEO role into that of an executive remains appropriate. If the outcome of this stage is that Prime Minister. delivery should continue, the second stage of the review President Ghani’s inauguration took place on will assess whether the bodies are operating efficiently 29 September. The first democratic transfer of power and in line with the recognised principles of good from one elected President to another, marked a truly corporate governance. historic moment in the history of Afghanistan. The Ghani Government signed the bilateral security agreement and the NATO status of forces agreement on 30 September. HOME DEPARTMENT The NATO Wales summit discussed Afghanistan on 4 September. The meeting paid tribute to ISAF and Afghan sacrifices, recognised their achievements, and Drugs Policy underlined continuing international commitment to supporting Afghanistan. A subsequent ISAF declaration outlined in particular the NATO-led support envisaged The Minister for Crime Prevention (Norman Baker): for Afghanistan after 2014. In December 2013, I commissioned an expert panel to Following the NATO summit, the Prime Minister look at the challenge of new psychoactive substances told Parliament on 8 September, Official Report, column (NPS). In my written ministerial statement at that time, 655: I made it clear that we are prepared to enhance our “We reaffirmed our long term commitment to supporting a UK–wide legislative framework to ensure that our law peaceful, prosperous and stable Afghanistan, including through enforcement agencies have the best available powers, our development conference in London in November.” sending out the clearest possible message that the trade This is now planned for 3 to 4 December. in these substances is reckless and that these substances can be dangerous, even fatal. I also asked the expert The Secretary of State for Defence travelled to Kabul panel to consider the education, prevention and treatment on 23 to 24 September for a visit timed to enable him to response to NPS and make recommendations. deliver the keynote speech at the ceremony marking the graduation of the first Kandak (battalion) from the Today I am pleased to publish the expert panel’s UK-sponsored Afghan National Army Officer Academy report and recommendations on this challenging issue (ANAOA). He was the first international Minister to alongside the Government’s response to those meet with President Ghani and CEO Abdullah. recommendations. I am placing the report in the Library of the House. The expert panel is clear that new psychoactive It will also be published on the gov.uk website: https:// substances—these so called “legal” highs—present a www.gov.uk/government/publications/afghanistan- challenge that cannot be ignored. The UK has been progress-reports. quicker to respond to this challenge than most other countries, putting in place a forensic early warning system, banning more than 350 substances and leading HEALTH the global response through the United Nations and G7. We have ensured that local authorities are aware of Non-Departmental Public Bodies (Triennial Reviews) and use existing powers under drugs, medicines and consumer protection legislation to disrupt NPS supply. We have provided consistent and evidence-based messaging The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, on the risks of NPS through guidance to schools, Innovation and Skills (George Freeman): I am today FRANK (the Government’s online drug awareness service) announcing the start of the triennial reviews of the and targeted communications activity. We are also rapidly National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE), developing clinical responses to these substances via the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency front-line services. However we recognise that there is (MHRA), the British Pharmacopoeia Commission (BPC), more to do to tackle the issue of new psychoactive the Commission on Human Medicines (CHM), the substances, which have claimed the lives of far too Administration of Radioactive Substances Advisory many young people. Committee (ARSAC) and the Independent Reconfiguration The expert panel recognised that our current approach Panel (IRP). has real strengths that should be built on and not All Government Departments are required to review dismissed. In addition, they have made wide ranging their non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) at least recommendations across a number of areas including once every three years. Due to the wide ranging reforms treatment and intervention, prevention, education and made by the Health and Social Care Act 2012, the information sharing. 29WS Written Statements30 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 30WS

In response to these recommendations I am announcing British-Irish Visa Scheme (Indian and Chinese Citizens) today a range of actions. We will develop proposals for a blanket ban similar to that introduced in Ireland in 2010. This would give law enforcement greater powers The Minister for Security and Immigration (James to tackle the market in so called “legal” highs in general, Brokenshire): I am today making a ministerial authorisation instead of on a substance by substance basis. I have also under schedule 3, part 4, paragraph 17 (4)(a) of the commissioned the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Equality Act 2010. This authorisation may be cited as Drugs to provide advice on a cutting edge way of the Equality (British-Irish Visa Scheme––Indian and basing legal controls for future synthetic drugs that Chinese Citizens) authorisation. mimic cannabis and on the effects these substances have The authorisation will allow Chinese and Indian on the brain rather than their chemical structure. The citizens to transit through the UK en route to the expert panel highlighted a number of factors that will Republic of Ireland under the transit without visa need to be considered in taking these recommendations concession (TWOV). To qualify, individuals must meet forward in the UK context. We therefore think it is the criteria for the TWOV and hold an Irish short-stay important to take the time necessary to ensure that any visa or subsequent stamp conferring leave in Ireland legislation developed in response to the expert panel’s endorsed with the BIVS. No additional requirements recommendations is carefully considered and will work are being imposed on these individuals, other than in the UK. those already required of them as visa nationals for the In response to the expert panel’s wider recommendations, purposes of entry clearance to travel to the UK. we will also implement a comprehensive action plan The UK and Irish Governments are working in close that includes strengthening training given to front-line co-operation to protect the security of the external NHS staff to deal with the effects of NPS use and the border of the common travel area. Joint work is under publication of new guidance by Public Health England way to ensure our checks are effective at preventing for local authorities, including advice on integrating individuals who intend either country harm from entering, new psychoactive substances into local drugs education, while preserving the right of free movement for those prevention and treatment work. who are lawfully present. In addition to the expert panel’s report and Government’s The UK will recognize certain Irish visas under the response we are publishing a wider Home Office evidence British-Irish visa scheme. It is therefore no longer necessary paper—“New Psychoactive Substances in England—A to impose a transit visa requirement on Chinese and Review of the Evidence.” This paper builds on the Indian citizens who have been issued a visa under this evidence considered and set out in the expert panel’s scheme. report. The British-Irish visa scheme is part of this joint Alongside these publications, today we are also publishing UK-Ireland work, allowing eligible visitors to travel to the findings of the Government’s international study the UK and the Republic of Ireland on a single visa. of drugs policies. The report, Drugs: International Subsequent roll-out of the scheme to other nationalities Comparators, describes a selection of policy and operational is envisaged but is subject to the outcome of an evaluation responses to drugs misuse in other countries. The process of the first phase. approaches explored in the report were seen by Ministers The authorisation will facilitate tourism to the Republic and officials from the Home Office during international of Ireland and the UK by removing the requirement for fact-finding activities that took place between May Indian and Chinese citizens, eligible for the British-Irish 2013 and March 2014. These included visits to, and visa scheme and subject to the enhanced Irish visa discussions with: Portugal, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, regime, to obtain transit visas to travel to the Republic the Czech Republic, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Japan, of Ireland through the UK. South Korea and Uruguay. The report includes an I therefore consider the ministerial authorisation to assessment of the drugs situation in the UK and a be reasonable, rational, proportionate and necessary for description of the current and future challenges for maintaining the integrity of the immigration system. policymakers. The authorisation shall come into operation on The study has provided a sound base of evidence on 13 October 2014 and remain in force until 1 December approaches to drugs misuse and drug addiction in other 2014. countries. In many cases, the differences between the I am placing a copy of the authorisation in the approach other countries have taken illustrate the Library of the House. complexity of the challenge, and demonstrate why we cannot simply adopt another country’s approach wholesale. The UK’s approach on drugs remains clear: we must prevent drug use in our communities, help dependent JUSTICE individuals through treatment and wider recovery support, while ensuring law enforcement protects society by stopping Deaths of Service Personnel on Operations Overseas the supply and tackling the organised crime that is associated with the drugs trade. Based on what we have learned, the UK will continue to advocate a balanced, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon evidence-based approach to the misuse of drugs Hughes): My hon. Friend the Minister for Defence internationally. Personnel, Welfare and Veterans and I present our All four of these publications can be found on the latest joint statement reporting progress with coroner gov.uk website and copies will be placed in the Libraries investigations into the deaths of UK service personnel of both Houses. on active service overseas. We wish as always to pay 31WS Written Statements30 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 32WS tribute to our armed forces for the constant courage Deaths of service personnel who returned home injured and skill with which they serve our country.We particularly No coroner investigations are open in relation to remember those service personnel who have given their service personnel who returned home injured and have lives. Our thoughts remain with their families. then died from their injuries. This statement indicates the position at 23 October We will continue to inform the House of progress. 2014 on open investigations and inquests which the senior coroners for Oxfordshire, Wiltshire and Swindon and other coroner areas in England and Wales are conducting. WORK AND PENSIONS As supplementary information to this statement we have placed tables in the Libraries of both Houses. The tables include the status of all cases and show whether Work Capability Assessments there has been or will be a service inquiry. In the earlier years covered, a service inquiry was known as a board of inquiry. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith): The previous Government appointed The Ministry of Defence’s defence inquests unit continues Atos the sole provider for carrying out work capability to work with coroners, including a cadre of coroners assessments in 2008. who have received special training in handling service personnel inquests. Together they make sure that everything On 27 March, Official Report, column 56-58WS, the possible is done to progress and complete investigations former Minister with responsibility for disabled people quickly and thoroughly. Should it be appropriate in announced that following negotiations with Atos, the future for an investigation to be held in Scotland instead Government had reached a mutual agreement for Atos of England and Wales, Section 12 of the Coroners and to exit the contract to deliver health-related assessments Justice Act 2009 provides for this. including work capability assessments before it is due to end in August 2015. Our thanks are due to coroners and their staff for Following a rigorous procurement exercise, I am pleased their thoroughness and compassion in these vitally to announce today that MAXIMUS Health and Human important investigations. We are grateful to the Chief Services Ltd has been awarded the contract to deliver Coroner for his essential contribution to improving health-related assessments including the work capability processes, and once more we thank everyone who helps assessments for DWP. The contract is to provide a and informs bereaved families at every stage of the national service for three years, with the option to investigation. extend twice by a further year. Operational service will Repatriations of service personnel who have died commence on 1 March 2015. overseas have mainly taken place at RAF Lyneham in The transfer of undertakings protection of employment the Wiltshire and Swindon coroner area, and, currently, regulations will apply and most of the Atos employees RAF Brize Norton in the Oxfordshire coroner area. To currently employed on this contract will transfer to help the senior coroners for those two areas to take MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd, who will service personnel inquests forward without affecting also use the existing Atos infrastructure and IT. The the local caseload, since 2007 the Ministry of Defence new provider will therefore be able to step into the and the Ministry of Justice have made joint additional contract without disrupting the service. funding available. My absolute priority for MAXIMUS Health and Current status of inquests Human Services Ltd will be to transition the service Since our last statement on 17 July there have been a smoothly from the current provider and stabilise the further four inquests into the deaths of service personnel operation to deliver the best service possible for claimants, on operations. The total of inquests into the deaths of increase the volume of assessments carried out and service personnel who have died on active service or reduce waiting times without compromising quality. who have died in the UK of injuries sustained on active MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd runs service is 614. Three deaths led to no formal inquest. In health care programmes in Australia, Canada and the one of these cases it was decided not to hold a fatal United States and is one of the largest occupational accident inquiry in Scotland after a serviceman who health providers in the UK. It employs large numbers of had made a partial recovery died there from his injuries. doctors, nurses and other health care professionals and The other two deaths were taken into consideration at brings years of experience conducting independent health inquests into deaths which occurred in the same incidents. assessments. MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd is already a key Work programme provider and was Coroners’ investigations which have been opened recently awarded a contract to run the Department’s Deaths in Afghanistan new Fit for Work service. As at 23 October, 17 coroner investigations are open MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Ltd will into the deaths of service personnel on operations. bring both clinical expertise and a fresh approach that, over time, will significantly reduce waiting times and The senior coroner for Wiltshire and Swindon has provide a better experience for claimants. A key focus of retained six of the open investigations. The senior coroner its plan is on recruiting and retaining the high-quality for Oxfordshire has retained eight, and senior coroners health care professionals the service needs. MAXIMUS for areas closer to the next-of-kin are conducting the Health and Human Services Ltd staff will spend more other three open coroner investigations. Nine hearing time engaging with and helping claimants earlier in the dates have been listed. process, so that claimants know what to expect and can 33WS Written Statements30 OCTOBER 2014 Written Statements 34WS better prepare for the assessments. This should help is more robust, with an agreed performance regime that reduce the number of people who currently do not gives us confidence delivery goals will be achieved. My attend assessments. Department, Atos and MAXIMUS Health and Human I am confident MAXIMUS Health and Human Services Services Ltd will work together during the transition Ltd will bring about the changes required to improve period to ensure a smooth handover. claimants’ experience of the assessment process. Atos will continue to deliver health-related assessments We already have in place an agreement with Atos including work capability assessments in Northern Ireland covering the remaining term of its contract. This agreement under a separate contract.

3P Petitions30 OCTOBER 2014 Petitions 4P

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by David Petition Morris, Official Report, 21 July 2014; Vol. 584, c. 1214.] Thursday 30 October 2014 [P001375] TRANSPORT Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: Restoration of the mainline platforms at Carnforth railway station In line with our localism agenda, it is for the Local Authority to determine whether such a scheme is a The Petition of residents of the UK, priority for them and to carry out a feasibility study. Declares that the Petitioners support David Morris Therefore, Lancashire County Council are free to make MP’s campaign to support the reinstatement of the their own decisions on whether to progress with this platforms at Carnforth Station on the West Coast Mainline. scheme. At present the Government have no plans to The Petitioners therefore request that the House of reinstate the platforms at Carnforth station as stopping Commons urges the Government to put pressure on main line trains would reduce the capacity of the line Lancashire County Council to approve funding for a and increase the journey times of long distance express feasibility study to allow the platforms to be re-instated. services.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 30 October 2014

Col. No. Col. No. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 393 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Church Commissioners (Investment Guidance) ..... 394 continued Episcopal Vacancies...... 394 Climate Change ...... 382 Extremism...... 393 Farm Regulation...... 385 Ordination of Women...... 391 Flood Protection Schemes...... 383 Flooding ...... 378 ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 396 Marine Management Organisation (Ray Quotas) .. 375 Individual Voter Registration (Scotland)...... 396 Marine Protected Areas ...... 377 Postal Votes...... 392 Rivers and Beaches (Cleanliness) ...... 385 Topical Questions ...... 386 Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership.... 380 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Water Bills ...... 376 AFFAIRS...... 375 Air Pollution ...... 384 PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION ...... 390 Badger Cull...... 381 Foreign National Offenders ...... 390 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Thursday 30 October 2014

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 25WS HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Better Care Fund ...... 25WS Drugs Policy ...... 28WS

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 26WS JUSTICE...... 30WS Afghanistan (Progress Report)...... 26WS Deaths of Service Personnel on Operations Overseas...... 30WS HEALTH...... 27WS Non-Departmental Public Bodies (Triennial TREASURY ...... 25WS Reviews)...... 27WS Financial Policy Committee (Housing Market Tools)...... 25WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 28WS British-Irish Visa Scheme (Indian and Chinese WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 32WS Citizens)...... 30WS Work Capability Assessments ...... 32WS PETITION

Thursday 30 October 2014

Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 3P Restoration of the mainline platforms at Carnforth railway station...... 3P Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 6 November 2014

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CONTENTS

Thursday 30 October 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 375] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Church Commissioners Public Accounts Commission Speaker’s Electoral Commission Committee

Refugees and Migrants (Search and Rescue Operation) [Col. 397] Answer to urgent question—(James Brokenshire)

Business of the House [Col. 410] Statement—(Mr Hague)

Backbench Business UK Drugs Policy [Col. 434] Motion—(Caroline Lucas)—agreed to Sale of Park Homes [Col. 476] Motion—(Annette Brooke)—ageed to

General Practices (Coventry) [Col. 505] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Arms Exports and Controls [Col. 115WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 25WS]

Petition [Col. 3P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]