Monday Volume 675 4 May 2020 No. 53

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Monday 4 May 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 401 4 MAY 2020 402

Alok Sharma: I welcome the hon. Lady’s House of Commons acknowledgement that things are starting to work in terms of the CBIL scheme. I have personally had Monday 4 May 2020 conversations with individual banks, and I will continue to do that. We have also made the scheme more The House met at half-past Two o’clock accessible—for instance, extending it to all viable small businesses and removing the forward viability test. PRAYERS Miss Dines [V]: Businesses such as RG Millward Ltd in my constituency of Derbyshire Dales have been [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] applying for the coronavirus business interruption loan. The House entered into hybrid scrutiny proceedings I welcome my right hon. Friend’s commitment that (Order, 22 April). those loans will be interest-free for 12 months. What is [NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.] he doing to ensure that businesses such as those in my rural constituency can access these loans from the banks on the most favourable and reasonable terms at this Oral Answers to Questions difficult time? Alok Sharma: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. I can tell her that my Department is working very BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL closely with the financial sector to ensure that businesses STRATEGY across the whole UK, including in Derbyshire Dales, are getting the support they need. As a result of the The Secretary of State was asked— schemes we have announced, through the British Business Bank, businesses can now access Government-backed Coronavirus Business Interruption Loan loans worth anywhere from £2,000 up to £50 million.

Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): Whether Seema Malhotra [V]: It is estimated that 50% of the Government have collated statistics by region on the social enterprises could run out of cash by June without number of businesses that have had their coronavirus further support, raising concerns that the CBIL scheme business interruption loan application (a) approved and is not working for social enterprises. Some of those will (b) rejected. [902138] be in aviation, which is coming under huge strain. The UK aviation industry could lose around £21 billion-worth Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): What of revenue, putting at risk over 600,000 jobs, with steps his Department is taking to ensure that all firms 12,000 job cuts likely at British Airways alone, which requiring assistance are able to access the coronavirus will hit Feltham and Heston and the surrounding business interruption loan scheme. [902152] constituencies very hard. When will the Secretary of State bring forward specific support packages for the Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): sectors that are worst hit by covid-19, such as aviation? What estimate his Department has made of the number of social enterprises that have received coronavirus Alok Sharma: The hon. Lady’s question was in two business interruption loans. [902148] parts. The first related to social enterprises. CBILS is open to all social enterprises, so long as they make at Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con): What steps his least 50% of their income from trading, which we believe Department is taking to ensure that all firms requiring covers the majority of social enterprises. She raised a assistance are able to access the coronavirus business wider question about larger companies. As she knows, interruption loan scheme. [902153] we have a range of schemes in place, with the bounce-back Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): What loan scheme at one end and the corporate finance discussions he has had with small businesses on the facility at the other. Where an individual business is not operation of the coronavirus business interruption loan able to access any of those particular schemes, they can scheme. [902149] come to us, and we will consider the case that they make. The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Alok Sharma): As of 1 May, over £4.7 billion- Simon Jupp [V]: Many established and previously worth of loans have been issued under the coronavirus profitable businesses in East Devon are desperate to business interruption loan scheme to 29,496 businesses. access financial support, but they have found the major From today, businesses will be able to access our new banks unwilling to lend. I joined many MPs from across bounce-back loans of up to £50,000 by filling in a Devon in writing to chief executives of major banks, simple, quick application. Those will be backed by a because I feel that they are not living up to the expectations 100% Government guarantee. required during this emergency. Does the Secretary of State agree that banks need to step up and put in place Stephanie Peacock [V]: Since I tabled this question, enough resources to process these requests urgently, so the Government have taken action in this area, which I that businesses in East Devon can get the support they welcome, but can the Secretary of State respond to my need? constituents’concerns that the application for the business interruption loan scheme is too complicated? Will he Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend raises an important develop a simple, standardised application process for point. As I said in answer to an earlier question, I have businesses looking to access loans above £50,000? been talking to the largest lenders. I spoke to them 403 Oral Answers 4 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 404 particularly over the bank holiday weekend, to ensure Edward Miliband: I thank the Secretary of State for that they were putting in place sufficient measures and that answer, and I hope that he will come to the House more people to process loan requests quickly. I believe to make a fuller statement on these matters at the that they have recognised the challenge and are stepping earliest opportunity. up to it. He will know that we have made changes to the I want to ask about another aspect of the lifting of CBIL scheme to make it more accessible, extending it to the lockdown, which is financial support for businesses all viable small businesses, removing the forward viability and workers. Does he recognise that there will need to test, encouraging automated credit checks and, of course, be a second phase of financial support for those businesses banning all personal guarantees for loans under £250,000. that will have to stay closed for longer, including an extension of the furlough scheme, with more flexibility Andrew Gwynne [V]: I welcome what the Secretary of for part-time working? Secondly, on the hospitality State just said, but in my area, businesses are still sector, which he knows is facing very challenging times, reporting complications with the scheme, which is can I urge him to look favourably at the proposal, which hampering their speed and eligibility to access the loans. has the support of over 80 of his own Back Benchers, to No cap has been placed on the interest rates that can be extend business support grants to businesses with rateable charged, and some banks in Greater Manchester are values of up to £150,000? It would make a difference to offering interest rates of up to 20%. There are also tens of thousands of pubs, restaurants and other businesses difficulties in getting through to banks to apply. Can the that are the lifeblood of our communities. Secretary of State tell me what he is doing to sort this urgently, so that small businesses can access this vital Alok Sharma: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, support? we have provided support for the hospitality, leisure and retail sector. There is a 100% rates holiday for all businesses in that sector, and we are also making £25,000 grants Alok Sharma: We are all aligned in our wish to make available to them. Under the grant scheme—the £25,000 sure that these loans are getting out to businesses, and I and £10,000 grants—as of last Monday, £7.5 billion believe that is starting to happen. On interest rates, of had been paid out. I hope he will welcome that. On the course, I have had those discussions on a very granular wider measures he talks about, we keep everything basis with banks, and they have recognised, on the under review, and I will look at anything that comes CBIL scheme, where we are providing an 80% guarantee, forward. that there is a requirement to reflect that in the interest rate. Furthermore, as the hon. Gentleman will know, Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and the interest rate on the bounce-back loans, which have Strathspey) (SNP) [V]: I also welcome the right hon. just been announced, is set at 2.5%, and of course the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) to Government have taken care of the first year of interest. his new position on the Labour Front Bench. A recent poll by the Scottish Chambers of Commerce Mr Speaker: I welcome Ed Miliband back to the has found that 48% of Scottish companies will run out Front Bench. of cash within three months, with 64% identifying shortcomings in Government support schemes. Does Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): Thank the Minister agree with Sir George Mathewson that, far you very much, Mr Speaker. from helping them to bounce back, these loan schemes will not even allow businesses to survive, and that the I can tell the Secretary of State that we are committed only option is to write off the debt and convert these to working constructively with the Government on all loans urgently into more accessible grants? issues, and we welcome the recent changes to the loans system. I have two specific questions about his draft guidelines on workplace safety. We share the desire for a Alok Sharma: I say to the hon. Gentleman, for whom return to work as soon as it is safe, but he will know that I have enormous respect, that one has to look at the firms with more than five employees are obliged by law sum total of what the Government are putting forward. to carry out risk assessments on safety. First, does he He will know that about 4 million people are being plan to ensure the publication of these risk assessments furloughed under the job retention scheme and that to give confidence to workers? Secondly, on enforcement support is available through grant schemes, which I of safe working, the Health and Safety Executive is talked about in my response to the right hon. Member operating on substantially reduced resources. What will for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband). Of course it is he do to ensure that the guidelines are enforced so that important that we support businesses, and we will continue all workers can feel safe? to do that. Support for Vaccine Manufacturing and Life Sciences Alok Sharma: I also take this opportunity to welcome Sector the right hon. Gentleman to his new role. We have already had two very constructive discussions. I hope Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con): What steps his that will be the tone of our future interactions. He raises Department is taking to support (a) vaccine manufacturing an important point. We both want workers in our and (b) the UK life sciences sector. [902146] country to feel safe and confident that they are returning to a safe workplace. Work on the consultation is ongoing, The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial and obviously I do not want to pre-empt it, but he Strategy (Alok Sharma): I announced the new vaccines makes some very important points, and of course he is taskforce on 17 April, which will expedite efforts to always welcome to write to me. I will look at what he research and produce a coronavirus vaccine. Last week, says very carefully. thanks to UK Government financial support of £20 million, 405 Oral Answers 4 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 406 the Oxford vaccine entered clinical trials in humans. but that is not how to build confidence or trust. The I can update the House that as of today 601 people have proposals talk about what the Government expect taken part in that trial. We continue to talk to Oxford to employers to consider and say that social distancing understand its manufacturing needs, and colleagues will and hand washing should happen where possible to be aware it has announced a collaboration with AstraZeneca help, but insufficient attention is paid to personal protective to ensure manufacturing capacity in the UK. equipment. Taking the necessary steps to protect employees is not a matter of expectation or guidance; it is the law. Chris Green [V]: British scientists are working with Will the Minister therefore confirm that covid-19 risk partners around the world to develop treatments and assessments will be mandatory for most businesses; that vaccines for covid-19. Does my right hon. Friend agree they will be made public and registered with the HSE; that it is just as important that we take the same and that, given the lack of capacity to carry out inspections, collaborative approach to manufacturing to ensure that, workplace health and safety reps will be involved in wherever treatments are developed around the world, settling assessments and then in their implementation they are made available in Britain and to people right and enforcement, and that they will be able to assist in across the world as soon as possible? non-unionised supply-chain companies?

Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend raises an incredibly Amanda Solloway: We are engaging with businesses, important point. Weare absolutely committed to working business representative organisations and unions to come with international partners in tackling the pandemic, to a shared view on how to make our places as safe as ensuring the UK is contributing to, and indeed benefiting possible for when people return to work. I can assure from, efforts around the globe. At the global coronavirus the hon. Gentleman that we are also involving Public response summit, which the UK is co-hosting, my right Health England and the Health and Safety Executive. hon. Friend the Prime Minister has today confirmed the £388 million from the UK towards the global £8 billion Covid-19: UK Space Industry target for research and development into covid-19. Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): Covid-19: New Ways of Working What steps his Department is taking to help the UK space industry to support nationwide plans to tackle Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con): What support the covid-19 outbreak. [902155] his Department is providing to businesses designing new ways of working to help safely mitigate the effects The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, of the covid-19 outbreak. [902144] Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway): I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The UK Space The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Agency, working with NHS England and the European Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway): I Space Agency, has made £2.6 million available for “close thank my hon. Friend for his question. We are engaging to market” ideas to manage pandemics. A new, fast with businesses, business representative organisations contracting process will ensure swift development. The and unions to get a shared view on how workplaces are agency is also working with UK Research and Innovation made as safe as possible for when people return to work. to explore how drones can support health services. Wewill work with industry and other key Administrations to help develop an understanding of how business can Andrew Griffith [V]: May I join my hon. Friend the adapt to a world where restrictions may last for some Minister in thanking the space industry for its help with time. the crisis? Does she agree that investment in the UK space sector has a vital role to play in growing the UK economy, Craig Williams [V]: I welcome my hon. Friend to her and could she confirm that programmes such as the place. I want to ask particularly about tourism and global navigation satellite system and Skynet 6 are hospitality, as Montgomeryshire is a rural, countryside moving ahead at pace? constituency. It is built for socially distanced tourism, but the industry, including our pubs, our hotels and our Amanda Solloway: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. countryside pursuits, will need some support in putting The growing UK space sector employs 42,000 people together the new normal and the new way of working. and contributes £300 billion to the wider UK economy What work are the Government doing to get the sector by providing satellite services on which many industries deal on its feet? rely. The UK Space Agency continues to investigate the requirements, design specifications and cost of a UK Amanda Solloway: As the Prime Minister said, we GNSS capability, and it is working closely with the want to get the economy moving as fast as we can, but Ministry of Defence to support activities under the we refuse to throw away all the effort and sacrifice of Skynet contract. We are working hard to develop a UK the British people and risk another major outbreak. We space strategy to generate further economic growth will be relying on science to inform us, as we have from across the country. the beginning. We will also be reaching out to build the biggest possible consensus across business, industry and Covid-19: Small Businesses all parts of the United Kingdom. Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): What Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab) [V]: Yesterday, discussions he has had with (a) the Federation of Small the Government gave trade unions just 12 hours to respond Businesses and (b) other representatives of small businesses to seven consultation papers on safe return to work. on the Government’s response to the covid-19 outbreak. The entire country wants the Government to succeed, [902143] 407 Oral Answers 4 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 408

The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth what support will my right hon. Friend be able to give (Kwasi Kwarteng): The Government are doing everything to clean energy suppliers, to ensure a greener and more at their disposal to support businesses through the crisis resilient energy infrastructure? and beyond. The Department is maintaining an ongoing dialogue with key stakeholders representing the country’s Kwasi Kwarteng: My hon. Friend is quite right. We small businesses. The FSB regularly participates in the are absolutely committed to net zero and will continue Business Secretary’s twice weekly call and regularly to support the development of clean energy. The fourth engages with my Department on a number of issues round of allocations for contracts for difference will relating to covid-19. take place next year, bringing forward new renewable electricity projects and creating further demand for the Sir Edward Leigh [V]: The best way, probably, to help many businesses across the UK that supply them. The small business in rural areas such as Lincolnshire is to unprecedented package of support for businesses, which beef up broadband. That is for the long term, but does was mentioned earlier, will help ensure that businesses the Minister accept that, in the short term, the best way in the clean energy sector can contribute to driving to help businesses is to let them do business, not subsidise economic recovery after this pandemic. them to close? I know we have to help vulnerable people, but it is not going to help the vulnerable in the Mr Fysh [V]: Will the Government please give local long term if we crash the economy,so are the Government authorities and local enterprise partnerships real-time working full pelt, obviously consistent with proper social access to sector-level information about the furloughs distancing, to get business back to work? and redundancies, and back ambitious enterprise and incentive schemes for them to help businesses to recover Kwasi Kwarteng: My right hon. Friend is quite right: and transform after the virus? we want to focus on getting business back to work; but these lockdown measures were introduced to protect Kwasi Kwarteng: My hon. Friend raises a really important lives. Relaxing the measures too much would, we feel, point: the flow of information is key to dealing with the risk damage to public health, our economy and all the crisis. I am happy to meet him to discuss the specifics of sacrifices we have all made. As my right hon. Friend the his constituency businesses, and I will raise access to Secretary of State for Education said last week, it is specific data with my right hon. Friends the Chancellor incredibly important that we create environments that of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Work are safe in which to work and learn. We will adjust and Pensions. lockdown measures when the scientific advice indicates that it is safe to do so. Elliot Colburn [V]: Several businesses in Carshalton and Wallington that were not eligible for the first round Covid-19: Support for Businesses of grants have got in touch with me, such as those in shared offices and our lovely park cafés. Does the Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con): What steps his Minister agree that councils should make use of the Department is taking to support businesses during the discretionary fund announced over the weekend to help covid-19 outbreak. [902147] those businesses through the pandemic?

Mr Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con): What steps his Kwasi Kwarteng: We have recognised that there are Department is taking to support businesses during the businesses,particularly in shared workspaces,with relatively covid-19 outbreak. [902150] high fixed costs related to rent payments, for example, and that they have not been able to benefit directly from Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): the grants. I know that my hon. Friend has raised the What steps his Department is taking to support businesses issue with my Department; as a result of his lobbying, during the covid-19 outbreak. [902151] on Friday my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy announced Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): additional funding to local authorities administering What steps his Department is taking to support businesses the two grant funds, which will help to support businesses during the covid-19 outbreak. [902154] that are currently out of scope. I strongly commend my hon. Friend’s input. Local authorities can now provide The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth grants to small businesses in a variety of shared workspaces. (Kwasi Kwarteng): My Department is supporting businesses through the coronavirus business interruption loan schemes. Rehman Chishti [V]: Local businesses in Gillingham In addition to those programmes, we are providing grants and Rainham have asked me to ask the Minister to for small businesses linked to their business rate status, clarify what help is being given to those self-employed and we are scrapping business rates this year for those business owners and partners who earn over the £50,000 in the hospitality, retail and leisure sectors. We have also threshold. Some of those businesses cannot furlough set up a package of support that will offer £1.25 billion any or some of their staff, and business interruption for high-growth firms, and today we are launching a loans still need to be paid at a later date. Will the scheme providing bounce-back loans of up to £50,000 Minister clarify what support is available to those who to small businesses. fall into that category?

Laura Farris [V]: I represent a number of businesses Kwasi Kwarteng: First, I would like to clarify our in Newbury that specialise in renewable energy.A secondary current position: we have prioritised helping the greatest effect of the pandemic has been a collapse in demand number of people as quickly as possible, and in order to for fossil fuel. When the economy begins its recovery, target that support at those most in need, the Government 409 Oral Answers 4 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 410 have chosen to cap the self-employment income support Nadhim Zahawi: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman scheme. Those who are not able to access the scheme feels that way.My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s may be able to access other wide-ranging measures that counterpart in the Scottish Government, Fiona Hyslop, the Government are providing, which are designed to to whom I speak every week, as I do to Ken Skates in support businesses across all sectors during these difficult Wales and Diane Dodds in Northern Ireland, thinks times. I am very happy for my hon. Friend to engage that the schemes are working well. We have improved with the Department and me on the issue. them as we have reviewed them. We have also launched the bounce-back scheme, which is much simpler, of Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme: Ineligible Workers between £2,000 to £50,000, and can get money in the bank within 24 hours.

Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP): What discussions PPE Shortages: Profiteering he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on providing financial support for workers ineligible for the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme. [902139] Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): What steps he is taking to ensure that businesses do not profiteer from shortages of personal protective equipment in the health and Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) social care sector. [902145] (SNP): What discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on providing financial support for workers ineligible for the Coronavirus Job Retention The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Scheme. [902165] Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi): Profiteering in PPE is completely unacceptable, and I want to be clear that no one should seek to exploit this The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, health emergency for financial gain. Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi): My Department is working closely with the Treasury on Clive Efford: That is a disappointing answer. The the coronavirus job retention scheme and the wider problem has been exacerbated by the Government’s Government response. In developing the scheme, the failure to stockpile PPE. There are numerous examples Government have prioritised helping the greatest number of people exploiting this situation, so it will only get of people as quickly as possible. worse if the Government do not act quickly. Will the Minister commit to legislating to take power to act Hannah Bardell [V]: While the additional flexibility is against operators who exploit the situation? welcome, the job retention scheme does nothing for those outside its arbitrary limits, such as my Livingston Nadhim Zahawi: The Competition and Markets constituent, stonemason Jason Hoffman, who has a Authority has already written to the small number of small limited business and makes up a modest salary firms suspected of profiteering, and the Secretary of with legal and tax-efficient annual dividends. Jason State has recently met business and consumer representatives does not qualify for the scheme, is not eligible for to discuss what further action might be necessary to universal credit and cannot furlough himself because address the issue. I have to put on record that the vast he could not bid for work and his business would majority of firms are acting responsibly. So many across collapse. How many small businesses like Jason’s will be the UK, such as BrewDog, Diageo and hundreds of destroyed before this Conservative Government finally small operators, are supporting the national effort to listen and include them in the scheme? What comfort tackle covid-19. As I said, the Secretary of State always can the Minister give to my constituent today? keeps the options open for tackling profiteering.

Nadhim Zahawi: As I said, we have tried to prioritise CABINET OFFICE helping the greatest number of people as quickly as possible. To make sure that other people can be helped, including those who are self-employed, a scheme for them is also available. We have tried to do as much as we The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister can through grants, as well as through local government, for the Cabinet Office was asked— including £617 million in discretionary grants for businesses that may not be registered for business rates, which can PPE Manufacture: UK Businesses get the additional help that was announced in the past 48 hours. Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): What progress the Government have made in processing offers of help Gavin Newlands [V]: I am not entirely sure whether from UK businesses to manufacture personal protective the Minister or the Secretary of State are listening. The equipment. [902091] truth is that the coronavirus business loan scheme is not working, partly because some lenders do not trust the Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con): What steps his Government to stand foursquare behind their loan Department is taking with UK manufacturers to increase guarantee without moving the goalposts at a future the supply of personal protective equipment. [902096] date. Loganair is just one of many businesses in my constituency with an urgent need to access the scheme Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con): What through an overly cautious and risk-averse lender. What steps his Department is taking with UK manufacturers can the Minister and his colleagues in the Treasury do to increase the supply of personal protective equipment. about that? [902097] 411 Oral Answers 4 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 412

Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): What steps his are in a conversation with the Department of Health Department is taking with UK manufacturers to increase and Social Care about what more they might be able to the supply of personal protective equipment. [902099] do to augment those who are not necessarily operating in those settings. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): Every NHS and Nigel Mills: I thank the businesses, and also careworker must get the personal protective equipment John Flamsteed Community School in Amber Valley, they need. That is why we have appointed Lord Deighton who have been making PPE for healthcare providers. to lead a national effort to boost PPE production and to Does the Minister agree that we are going to need UK support the scaling up of engineering efforts for small manufacturers to keep making this equipment for the companies capable of contributing supplies. long term, and will he therefore be able to relax procurement rules to allow these people to have some longer-term Grahame Morris [V]: A large number of UK companies contracts so that they can get maximum efficiency in and consortia came forward with offers to manufacture producing this equipment? and supply PPE, including the Protecting Heroes community interest company, which manufactures plastic Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a very important visors and face masks. However, after the pandemic point. We do need to show flexibility in the way in which began, how many of those offers did not receive a reply procurement operates, particularly in order to ensure for weeks at a critical time, resulting in some businesses that we have domestic production in the future upon selling vital PPE abroad? What were the reasons for the which we can rely. My right hon. Friend Lord Deighton delay in processing and responding to such offers? Have is leading the work in this area. the Government now established a more timely and efficient system for doing so? Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): Colleagues have made important points about shortages of PPE. Those Michael Gove: We have received 12,789 offers of help who look after the sick and the vulnerable deserve our with the provision of PPE and 10,436 of those companies protection, and getting PPE to them is the priority of have now been contacted. I am sure that the House all of us. The Prime Minister said last week that as part appreciates that many of those who make well-intentioned of coming out of the lockdown, face coverings will be and generous offers of help are offering PPE that may useful. As the Minister knows, in Germany and France not be appropriate in health and social care settings. We it is now required or advised to wear face masks on must ensure that we have appropriate PPE in appropriate public transport and elsewhere. So as the Government settings. look to announce plans to ease some of our lockdown restrictions, how many face masks suitable for wearing Mark Eastwood [V]: I have been assisting manufacturers by the public are currently available, and what work is in Dewsbury, Mirfield, Kirkburn and Denby Dale to being done with health experts to ensure that face register as potential suppliers of PPE on the gov.uk coverings that people are using are of sufficient quality portal. I am pleased that the Cabinet Office is now to stop the virus from spreading? responding to those businesses. My right hon. Friend has just confirmed how many have registered on the site Michael Gove: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for nationally.Will he confirm when those that have registered her questions. She is right that there are other European are likely to start receiving orders for PPE? countries that are prescribing face coverings, particularly on public transport and in other settings where a number Michael Gove: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend of people congregate. We follow the scientific advice. for the work that he, along with so many others, has done There is a clear distinction, as I know she knows, in order that generous offers of support can be processed between the sophisticated type of face mask that will be efficiently. As I mentioned, we have 10,436 organisations appropriate in a surgical or social care setting and the with whom we have been in contact. But specifically with sort of face covering that can be used by individuals in regard to UK manufacturing, there are 201 manufacturers order to shield others. It is important to recognise that with whom we are in touch at the moment, 180 of the wearing of these face coverings affords no protection whom are qualified to provide PPE and 22 of whom are to the individual, but, properly worn, they can be a going through the technical product review necessary in contribution to making sure that others are protected order to ensure that their personal protective equipment from the aerosols—from the droplets—that all of us is appropriate. might be responsible for producing when we cough or sneeze. That is why Lord Deighton and my right hon. Gary Sambrook: While the number of offers of help Friend Lord Agnew are working together in order to from UK manufacturers to produce PPE is high, ensure that we can increase domestic production of just unfortunately many will simply not be able to meet the such face coverings. medical standards required. What help can the Government give to those companies who wish to play their part in Rachel Reeves: I thank the Minister for that, but it is this national effort? of huge concern that he lacks clear answers to the questions that I put, especially given the ongoing fiasco Michael Gove: Again, I am grateful to my hon. Friend of getting PPE to health and social care workers. So I for the efforts that he and his constituents are making. ask again: how many of these face masks, for public use, It is the case that specifications of the type of personal are currently available? Other countries are ahead of us. protective equipment required in a health and social France has increased production and procurement to care setting have been shared by the NHS and by Public about 8 million masks per week. The Japanese Government Health England, but it is also the case that companies are sending masks to 50 million households. What are 413 Oral Answers 4 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 414 the Government doing to ensure that masks are distributed many UK manufacturers and medical supply companies to all those who need them? Given that the Government working so well together to ensure that we can increase were slow to engage with the UK textile manufacturing domestic supply. sector in the production of PPE for frontline workers, what are they doing to ensure that production of masks Mrs Latham [V]: Will my right hon. Friend tell the by British manufacturers is increased, looking forward House how many companies have risen to the challenge to what might come next? to make the extra ventilators needed—companies that do not normally make them such as Dyson or Rolls-Royce? Michael Gove: The hon. Lady again makes a series of important points. In terms of the numbers of masks Michael Gove: Yes, of course. We have been working that have been distributed overall, from 25 February with 11 new potential, or existing potential, suppliers, to 3 May we distributed 152 million masks, and just on but more than 5,000 businesses have been involved, 3 May we distributed 2.7 million masks. Of course, it is offering to provide services, because, of course, when the case that for those masks that are appropriate in producing a complex machine such as a ventilator, we surgical settings we do need to have a particular material— need to make sure that we source everything from the melt-blown plastic—in order to provide the necessary appropriate batteries, the appropriate valves and the protection for those wearing the masks. We have been in appropriate other technology. As I say, 5,000 businesses, touch with the specific suppliers of that type of material including Rolls-Royce, have been involved in the here in the United Kingdom. It is also the case that manufacture. suppliers of those materials tend to predominate in countries that have petrochemical industries, and we EU Withdrawal Agreement: Covid-19 have been in touch with those, including in the Gulf in order to provide it. They are a very different sort of Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): What assessment material from the type of face covering that would be he has made of the effect of the covid-19 outbreak on appropriate on public transport or elsewhere, and that the Government’s ability to implement and apply the is a very different exercise, and the numbers that we can withdrawal agreement by 31 December 2020. [902098] produce of those would be significantly greater because we do not have a reliance, as I have said, on that Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con): What progress he meltdown plastic, which can generally only be provided has made in negotiations on the UK’s future relationship by other countries. with the EU. [902100]

Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con): One of the Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (SNP): key issues on this rather vexed subject is that of transparency. What recent progress the Government have made on Would my right hon. Friend consider releasing the negotiating the UK’s future relationship with the EU. figures that he and other members of Government are [902103] made aware of each morning on the Cabinet Office dashboard to show stocks and quantities of PPE set The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister against demand? for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): From 20 to 24 April, a full and constructive negotiating round took Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes an important place,with a full range of discussions across all workstreams. point. It is the responsibility of all of us to do everything Our next scheduled round of talks with our EU friends we can to ensure that we have visibility on the need for will take place in the week beginning 11 May. PPE. That is why NHS trusts and others report on their stocks and the additional requirements that they have. Wes Streeting: Everyone will understand that we have It is also why we have ensured that, across our resilience left the European Union and everyone will understand forums that are responsible for the distribution of PPE that the impact of covid-19 might have an impact on the to more than 58,000 settings, we have seen something timetable for negotiating our future relationship, so why like 57 million pieces of PPE distributed, but, again, he will the Minister not give businesses the reassurance makes an important point about improving the visibility they need that if the Government need more time, they that we all have, and I will talk to my right hon. Friend will take more time? Is it dogma; is it vanity; or is it the Secretary State for Health and Social Care about paranoia? just that. Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman provides a helpful Ventilators list of conditions, but it is none of those. It is plain prudence. Were we to perpetuate our membership of Mrs Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): What the European Union-lite through the transition period, steps his Department is taking with UK manufacturers we would end up spending more taxpayers’ money, to increase the supply of ventilators to the NHS. which could be spent on the NHS. We would have to [902093] accept new EU rules that might constrain our ability to fight covid-19 and to deal with other crises, and we The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister would, of course, be unfortunately and unfairly trespassing for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): My Department on the EU’s need to concentrate on other vital priorities. and the Department of Health and Social Care have been working with a variety of UK manufacturers in Nick Fletcher [V]: Can my right hon. Friend inform order to increase the supply of ventilators to the NHS. my constituents in Don Valley whether the covid-19 We have placed an order with one in particular, Penlon, pandemic is likely to lead to an extension of the transition for 15,000 additional ventilators. I am pleased to see so period? 415 Oral Answers 4 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 416

Michael Gove: I can reassure my hon. Friend and the Naz Shah [V]: The UK has left the EU, but the NHS good people of Don Valley that the Government are Confederation and other top health officials have warned not going to extend the transition period at the end of that failing to continue co-operation would be a disaster this year. for public health. Does the failure of working together over PPE signal a new approach by the Government Allan Dorans [V]: Michel Barnier, the leader of the that puts ideology before the nation’s health? EU negotiating team, has expressed frustration that the UK’s negotiators seem happy to run down the clock on Michael Gove: No. leaving the transition with no deal in place at the end of this year. We have already heard repeated warnings of the perils of a cliff-edge Brexit, which could be calamitous Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab) [V]: It was for the economy at a time when businesses are fragile good to hear reports this morning that the Government and crave stability. Will the Chancellor of the Duchy do are getting behind the EU-led international initiatives the right thing by ensuring that his party does not bring to find a coronavirus vaccine. Given this approach, can about this calamity? the Minister confirm reports that the Government are now seeking to retain participation in the EU’s early Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman warning and response system for pandemics, as requested for raising this issue. There have been cordial conversations by the Department of Health and Social Care and NHS and negotiations between our negotiator David Frost Providers, and will they look again at participation in and Michel Barnier, and I would not want to prejudice the European Medicines Agency? those by making any criticism of Michel Barnier, other than to say that he will negotiate hard on behalf of the Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Commission, but we will negotiate hard on behalf of for making that point. We will co-operate not just with the whole United Kingdom. our European neighbours, but with other countries in the fight against covid-19. He is right to say that the Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP) [V]: Prime Minister is joining the call today to ensure that Is it not the case that what businesses want more than we can support the effort to secure a vaccine. The effort anything else is certainty that this Government will not to secure a vaccine is necessarily an international one. do anything to compound the economic difficulties We will of course look pragmatically at how we can caused by this pandemic? The Government could not of co-operate with our European friends and partners, but course do anything to stop covid coming to our shores, participation in the European Medicines Agency would but it is in their hands to stop further economic misery involve, certainly at the moment, the acceptance of the from a disastrous Brexit. Does the Minister agree that European Court of Justice’s oversight, and that is not the last thing businesses need is more economic turbulence something the British people voted to do. and that the certainty they seek is one that says there will be no no-deal Brexit and there will be an extension Transition Period: Extension to let them recover from this pandemic?

Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): for the point he makes. There will not be a no-deal What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues Brexit; we have a deal, and that deal was legislated for in on a potential extension to the transition period. the House of Commons. I think he is right: it is important [902132] that we give business certainty, and I think one of the best ways of giving business certainty is recognising The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister that we respect referendums. That is why this House has for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): As I think Members voted to respect the referendum that saw the British will appreciate given previous exchanges, the Government people take us out of the European Union, and I would will not be extending the transition period. Indeed, urge him and others to respect the referendum that Parliament has legislated to prevent Ministers from made it clear that the people of Scotland want to stay in agreeing to such an extension. The Government will the United Kingdom, instead of having the damaging therefore continue to negotiate a new fair trade deal uncertainty of an indyref2 hanging over future investment with the EU, the process of which will conclude by the decisions. end of December. EU Joint Procurement Programme for PPE Layla Moran [V]: A YouGov poll released this weekend Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab): For what reasons showed that half the population now think that the the UK did not join the EU joint procurement programme transition period should be extended, versus 35% who for personal protective equipment. [902110] think the Government should press ahead. The public know that kicking the economy when it is down, especially The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister with a no-deal Brexit on top of a covid crash, is in no for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): I thank the hon. one’s best interests. The right hon. Gentleman said just Lady for her question. Owing to an initial communication now that there was a deal, but he knows full well that problem, the UK did not receive the invitation in time that is the withdrawal agreement and not the future deal to join the four EU joint procurements, including on PPE. that will determine the trade relationship. No deal is We will, however, participate in the EU joint procurement still on the table, so will the Government consider scheme on therapeutics that is soon to launch, and we asking for even a short extension to avoid a no-deal will consider participating in future schemes, including Brexit, or are they intent on putting ideology before any on PPE, on the basis of public health requirements. pragmatism? 417 Oral Answers 4 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 418

Michael Gove: This Government always put pragmatism Covid-19: Armed Forces Support for NHS Trusts and the interests of the British people first. The hon. Lady mentioned a YouGov poll. There was another James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con): What steps his poll, on 12 December last year; it was called a general Department is taking with the armed forces to support election, and my right hon. Friend the Member for NHS trusts in their response to the covid-19 outbreak. Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) secured a [902089] majority in order to take this country out of the European Union on the basis of the deal that he negotiated. The John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): What support the armed Liberal Democrats took part in that poll. I cannot forces are providing to civil authorities in response to recall exactly how well they did, but it certainly the case the covid-19 outbreak. [902109] that they were not entrusted by the British people with the discharge of policy on our relationship with the EU. The Minister for Defence People and Veterans (Johnny Mercer) [V]: As part of the national covid-19 response, Covid-19: Devolved Administrations Defence has supported NHS trusts in a variety of ways. We have distributed PPE and diagnostic equipment, we Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con): What steps he is supported the planning, construction and staffing of taking to ensure that there is a co-ordinated response to Nightingale hospitals and we provided service personnel the covid-19 outbreak with the devolved Administrations. to conduct testing at regional and mobile testing sites. [902088] We also established a covid support force to assist wider The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith) [V]: Government, with 2,935 personnel in that force, as of We have established a Cabinet Committee structure to this morning, currently deployed to assist civil authorities. deal with the health, economic, public sector and international aspects of the covid-19 outbreak on behalf James Sunderland [V]: Given the challenging operational of the whole of the UK. Ministers from the devolved circumstances in which key workers have found themselves Administrations are regularly invited to participate in in recent weeks, what steps are being taken by the those discussions, and do so, in order to ensure the Cabinet Office to recognise those who have gone above highest level of co-ordination and effective working to and beyond the call of duty, and might those steps tackle this crisis on a UK-wide basis. manifest themselves in the form of a campaign medal? Virginia Crosbie [V]: I thank the Minister for her Johnny Mercer: We are carefully considering the response. Can she assure me that the level of co-operation appropriate ways to reward and recognise those involved will continue to ensure that north Wales and Ynys Môn in this unprecedented response. There will be a range of are equipped with enough PPE provision for our struggling ways to mark exceptional contributions once we are care homes and vital testing centres? Can she also through the crisis, including consideration of how the assure me that there will be a UK-wide approach to the honours system might play a role. Departments continue easing of restrictions, and an application of the five to consider existing internal mechanisms to reward tests? individuals and teams, with the recent example of Captain Tom Moore being appointed as an honorary colonel. Chloe Smith: I hope I can give my hon. Friend such reassurance. I am particularly grateful to the devolved John Spellar [V]: I am sure that we all agree that the Administrations, and in this case the Welsh Government, military bring a huge amount to our national effort, for their co-operation, and we will continue to work including manpower and, much more importantly, their with them in responding to the pandemic. That is in the mindset and can-do approach. Yet, rather than using interests of all our citizens. We respect the competence their skills to the full, too many Whitehall Departments of the devolved Administrations in issues such as health are still clinging to the old, discredited ways, involving and, where appropriate, we will seek a four-nations layers of middlemen, questionable mega-accounting and approach. consultancy firms, and needless delays. For example, the Foreign Office put all its trust in the airlines and left Covid-19: False Information Online thousands of our people stranded abroad, rather than properly using the RAF’s planes and, more importantly, Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): What steps he is its planning and chartering skills. As the Department taking with Cabinet colleagues to prevent false information responsible for procurement policy, will the Minister on covid-19 spreading online. [902094] get a grip not only in order to get my constituents home, The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith) and to get kit to the NHS and care homes, but also to [V]: Misleading information about coronavirus, whether ensure that we are much better organised to come out of it is maliciously intended or not, could cost lives. The the lockdown? work to tackle false information is led by our colleagues in the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Johnny Mercer: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for Sport across all of Government. We are also working his point. Although today we see the military in the closely with social media platforms to help them to media, particularly with regard to how we have stepped remove dangerous incorrect claims about the virus and up to meet the challenge of testing, the military have promoting steps that everyone can take to reduce the been involved from the very beginning. We mobilised a spread of false information. covid support force of 20,000. Yes, we have 2,500 people testing and 4,000 people deployed at the moment. It is Adam Afriyie [V]: [Inaudible.] for other Government Departments to choose when to use this resource. We receive those demand signals, that Mr Speaker: We will move on. I call Minister Mercer produces a response, and we are only too happy to step who is going to take a question tabled by James Sunderland. up and help other Departments where requested. 419 Oral Answers 4 MAY 2020 Oral Answers 420

Covid-19 Testing: Restriction to Hospital Admissions The Paymaster General (Penny Mordaunt) [V]: Both the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): Health Secretary attend a daily meeting with the Prime What role his Department played in the decision to Minister. Testing and tracing are a part of the issues restrict covid-19 testing to hospital admissions at the that are considered in detail at that meeting. beginning of March 2020. [902090] The Paymaster General (Penny Mordaunt) [V]: The Christian Matheson [V]: It is clear that testing, tracing Prime Minister established new implementation committees and tracking will be an essential part of our battle to co-ordinate the covid response. The committees are against coronavirus, and tech and IT will be required to supported by the Cabinet Office secretariat and meet support that. There have been concerns in the past few regularly on all issues, including testing. days about the allocation of these contracts, and perhaps Angus Brendan MacNeil [V]: Tapadh leibh, Mr Speaker. about a bit of cronyism in Downing Street. What safeguards May I first say how sorry we are in Na h-Eileanan an will the Minister put in place to ensure that applications, Iar to hear the concerning news from our neighbours in and the data that those applications use, will be safeguarded the Isle of Skye about the covid outbreak in Portree? and used solely for the purpose of defeating coronavirus? Over to the western—with ourselves, Na h-Eileanan an Iar—we are an ideal area really, with the lowest R rate, Penny Mordaunt: Clearly there are very strict protocols to conduct a “test, trace, isolate” pilot, and even more so that surround any kind of procurement or pilot that with the kind offers of help from the world leaders might take place across any Government Department. in population testing: namely, our neighbours in the Those protocols have given us confidence in the past, Faroe Islands. Given that, and if and when the Scottish and there is no reason why they should not in the future. Government give the green light to this sensible pilot, If the hon. Gentleman has concerns, he should raise will the UK Government also assist, perhaps by using them with the relevant Minister and certainly with the RAF training flights to take test samples on the half-hour Cabinet Office, but those protocols are strong and have flight from either Stornaway or Benbecula to the Faroe stood us in good stead; we have transparency around Islands? these issues. Penny Mordaunt: I thank the hon. Gentleman and all colleagues who have put forward ideas and solutions, Catherine McKinnell [V]:I am pleased that the and shared good practice in the early weeks of this Government recognise the importance of testing and crisis. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman’s request will tracing to contain the virus. It is just one of the issues have been heard by our joint Minister, the Minister for that we need to get right before we can safely reopen Defence People and Veterans, my hon. Friend the Member schools. Headteachers in my constituency are really for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer). Of course, struggling to support vulnerable pupils, particularly Defence has stepped up in every case where it has been with free school meal vouchers, because the system used asked to do so, and I am sure that it will support testing by the Government’s chosen provider, Edenred, is not wherever it is taking place, as well as the pilots. fit for purpose. Will the Government get a grip on this urgently, to ensure that our children at least are fed? Covid-19: Large-scale Testing and Tracing Penny Mordaunt [V]: The hon. Lady is right that Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): What ensuring that we have the right testing and the right recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of volume of testing in place is one of the five criteria for State for Health and Social Care on large-scale testing our being able to reopen society and ease lockdown and tracing for covid-19. [902092] measures. I know that there have been issues with the Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) voucher system, and the Department for Education has (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the been looking at that. If there any remaining issues in Secretary of State for Health and Social Care on large-scale her constituency that she would like to flag up with me, testing and tracing for covid-19. [902104] I will take them up with the Department for Education. 421 4 MAY 2020 Covid-19: DWP Update 422

Covid-19: DWP Update We do, however, want claimants to continue to look for work wherever they are able to do so. Ministers are 3.31 pm working hard to make sure that existing vacancies can be accessed by people who have become unemployed. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Dr Thérèse We will continue to support those people while they are Coffey): With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a waiting for the opportunity for work. We have created a statement updating the House on the work of my new website to guide people—jobhelp.dwp.gov.uk—and Department. First, I want to pay tribute to the civil we are advertising 58,200 vacancies. servants in my Department as well as our contractors and partners, who have been working tirelessly to provide Although our IT systems have worked—thanks to help and support to those in need. They are the hidden extensive work by the universal credit team, including heroes for many people in this country, and they should our contractors—I know that some claimants experienced take great pride in their hard work in and dedication to significant delays in the verification of their identity. supporting people through these difficult times. Identity checks are crucial to reduce fraud risk, so we From16 March to the end of April, we received over worked closely with the Cabinet Office to increase 1.8 million claims for universal credit, over 250,000 substantially the capacity of the online Verify system, claims for jobseeker’s allowance, and over 20,000 claims and average wait times are now below five minutes. for employment and support allowance. Overall, that is six times the volume that we would typically experience, Call volumes have been extremely high, with more and in one week we had a tenfold increase. The rate for than 2.2 million calls in one day at the peak. Having UC claims appears to have stabilised at about 20,000 to recognised the delays that people were experiencing—or, 25,000 a day, which is double that of a standard week indeed, that they were not able to get through at all—we pre-covid-19. I am pleased that my Department is standing turned it around with our “Don’t call us—we’ll call up to the challenge. We have redeployed a significant you”campaign. A bolstered frontline team now proactively number of DWP staff—about 8,000 so far—and staff calls claimants when we need to check any information from other Government Departments, about 500 so far, provided as part of a claim. This has been successful in to process these claims. Our payment timeliness for freeing up capacity and reducing the time that customers universal credit is running at a record high. need to spend on the phone. We have also issued almost 700,000 advances to In respect of other departmental operations, although claimants who felt that they could not wait for their first we have redeployed staff we have kept critical work routine payment, and the vast majority of those claimants ongoing in child maintenance and bereavement. We are received money within 72 hours. Where possible, and monitoring our performance and will return staff to mindful of risk, we have streamlined our processes. We these areas if the response rate is unacceptable. We have will consider learnings carefully from this time in the cancelled the pension levy increase, supported defined response phase, and whether any of them can be made contributions through the job retention scheme, and permanent. worked with regulators to assist defined benefit pensions We have also sought to make it possible for people to and to combat scams. work from home, and have deployed 10,000 computers. We are now at a level of deploying 750 new devices a It is worth reminding the House of our financial day to enable working from home, and have added to injection of more than £6.5 billion into the welfare the IT capacity for remote users. However, if staff need system so that it can act as a safety net for the poorest in to continue to work at the office, we are applying social society. We have focused on changes that could be made distancing. Making sure that our claimants and civil quickly and would have significant positive impact. We servants are safe is a key priority. From 17 March we have increased the standard rate of universal credit and suspended all face-to-face assessments for health and working tax credit for the next 12 months by around disability benefits. We automatically extended awards £1,000 per year; we increased the local housing allowance for existing claimants that were due to be reassessed by rates for universal credit and housing benefit claimants, three months, and will only undertake reviews or so they now cover the lowest 30% of local rents; and we reassessments when claimants notify us of changes that increased the national maximum caps, so claimants in could lead to a higher payment. Any claim made under inner and central London should also see an increase in the special rules for terminal illness continues to be their housing support payments. I have been made fast-tracked—it takes an average of six days to process aware that some councils have not made the adjustment those claims. in housing benefit, and my Department is communicating with them all this week. Furthermore, across England Since 24 March, job centres have not been open for we had already increased the discretionary housing regular appointments, but we continue to offer face-to-face payment by an extra £40 million for this financial year. appointments in exceptional circumstances if claimants would not otherwise be able to receive support. Claimants The 1.7% benefit uplift was implemented in April, can continue to receive support over the phone or ending the benefits freeze, and the state pension rose by through their online journals. All local jobcentres have 3.9%, as per the triple lock, reflecting last year’ssubstantial been turned into virtual processing teams, prioritising rise in average earnings. We have introduced regulations advances and the registration and payment of new to ease access to benefits: we legislated to allow access claims. We have also paired jobcentres across the country to employment and support allowance from day one of to support one another with processing, using fully our a claim; we relaxed the minimum income floor so that network capacity. the self-employed can access universal credit more readily; That focus on the processing of claims means that we we have made it easier to access ESA by launching an have stopped checking the claimant commitment on ESA portal for online applications; and we legislated to looking for and being available for work for three months. ensure that statutory sick pay was available for employees 423 Covid-19: DWP Update4 MAY 2020 Covid-19: DWP Update 424

[Dr Thérèse Coffey] holes in it, and it is good that the Government have recognised that. My questions for the Secretary of State from day one of sickness or self-isolation due to covid-19. are about how we can widen that net so that everyone I remind the House that statutory sick pay is the legal who needs support gets it, and about the steps that will minimum. need to be taken as we move from response to recovery. We will continue to look at issues that arise—for First, the Government have significantly increased example, we are ensuring that maternity pay is based on universal credit, but people on legacy benefits such as standard pay, not furlough pay levels—and see what we jobseeker’s allowance and employment and support can do quickly and straightforwardly to fix either allowance have not seen a corresponding increase in unintended consequences or unforeseen issues, but it is their benefit. More than 100 charities have pointed out not my intention to change the fundamental principles that that discriminates against disabled people in particular. or application of universal credit. When will those benefits be uprated? We have undertaken a significant project to support the Secondly, there are now 100,000 families who will not Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government be able to receive this increase because they are still and the national shielding service by establishing the limited by the benefit cap. The Government say the outbound contact centre. Furthermore, we use the contact benefit cap exists to force people to work more hours or centre to contact proactively our most vulnerable customers move to cheaper housing, both of which are clearly who receive their benefits or pensions solely through impossible during the crisis. Almost every organisation, Post Office card accounts. I thank the Post Office for from the Institute for Fiscal Studies to the Resolution helping us to support this group of customers. We have Foundation and the Child Poverty Action Group, believes been able to provide contact-free cash payments by it should be temporarily suspended. Does the Secretary Royal Mail special delivery, and we were able to signpost of State agree? people to extra support from their local council. Thirdly, anyone who has been saving for a housing I can inform to the House today that the DWP will deposit, for a rainy day or for a substantial item could stop any new benefit and pension claimants from using find themselves ineligible for universal credit because of the Post Office card account from 11 May, as we prepare those savings. Those people paid into the system when for the end of the contract. The uptake of accounts in they were in work; should it not be there for them now? the past year has been exceptionally low, but, in any I do not believe we should punish those savers, and I event, given that we believe the vast majority of people believe those saving limits should also be suspended. using POCA already have a bank account, the cost of the contract is poor value for taxpayers. Existing customers Fourthly, the Government say the two-child limit who currently receive payment through a Post Office card exists so people supported by social security have to account will see no change and will continue to receive make the same family choices as those who are not, but payment into their accounts for the remainder of the this crisis shows how absurd that claim is. People could contract period. Wecan use the HMG payment exception not have been expected to make family choices three service for people who cannot access any bank account. years ago based on the likelihood of a global pandemic I thank the Health and Safety Executive—an arm’s shutting down our economy. The Government have length body for Great Britain that is sponsored by my suspended sanctions during the crisis, but the two-child Department—for its work on covid-19. It has been doing limit is effectively an 18-year sanction on the third and crucial work with the Department for Business, Energy fourth child in a family. Surely it should go too. and Industrial Strategy and Public Health England Fifthly and finally, those people who are eligible for to provide guidelines for employers to adhere to once support from universal credit will still have to wait restrictions can begin to be eased. The HSE is working five weeks for their money or take an advance that will hard, along with local authorities, to enable work to be deducted from future payments. Many people do not continue safely in the sectors for which it is responsible. appreciate that if they claim universal credit before they It has developed practical guidance on the enforcement receive their final salary payment, their income means of the law where workers are being exposed to unnecessary they have no entitlement for their first month and could risk. have to wait as long as nine weeks for any payment. In conclusion, my Department is standing up to the Since it was introduced, the five-week wait has been the challenge of unprecedented demand for its services, and single biggest driver of housing arrears, short-term debt we are getting support to those who need it. We will and food bank use in the country. It should not exist at continue to work across Government to help the nation all, but in this crisis it is particularly egregious, and it get through this health emergency. I commend this simply must go. statement to the House. May I also raise a very specific issue with the Secretary of State? It has come to light that the universal credit 3.39 pm regulations treat maternity allowance, which is received Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op) mainly by low-paid women, as unearned income but [V]: I thank the Secretary of State for advance notice of statutory maternity pay as earnings, which are disregarded her statement. May I add my thanks to the dedicated by the work allowance. That could result in a low-paid frontline staff of the Department for Work and Pensions pregnant woman being as much as £4,000 a year worse for everything they have done and are doing during this off. Why is that? Will it change? crisis to ensure that we can process the unprecedented I turn to preparations for the recovery. As the Cabinet volume of claims that have been made? Minister responsible for the Health and Safety Executive, I welcome the measures the Secretary of State has what conversations has the Secretary of State had with announced so far. The social security system we had it about the process by which workplaces will be made going into this crisis was a safety net with too many safe when people are asked to return to work? When the 425 Covid-19: DWP Update4 MAY 2020 Covid-19: DWP Update 426 lockdown began, most MPs were inundated with questions that, if any changes were contemplated, they would from constituents still in work about whether their have taken some time to process. We have decided to workplace sounded safe. That simply will not do when focus our efforts on those who are the poorest in society. lockdown ends. There must be a clear process agreed by I should also say that money saved for taxation payments, the workforce and management, not least because a such as by the self-employed, will effectively be treated failure to do so would likely result in significant litigation. as business assets, and so would not be included for This crisis has confirmed in terms what the UK’s consideration or be deemed personal savings. unequal and unfair labour market really means. Although On the five-week wait, there is no intention to change some people have been able to work from home on full that. In fact, in terms of the largest number of people who pay, others have faced having to go into work and risk have claimed, this will be our biggest payment week going their health, or have lost their job through no fault of ahead. I am aware of what the hon. Gentleman says about their own and will receive social security or sick pay set people who have been paid in the last month. My at just a fifth of the UK’s weekly median income. More understanding is that there is a phasing issue in terms of than 4 million British children grow up in poverty, the calculation of universal credit payments that people living in poor accommodation and perhaps without the would be entitled to with regard to the standard allowance. internet connections many of us take for granted. The One of the benefits of having the advance is that it is lockdown will have a severe impact on their wellbeing. designed to spread an annual income over 13 payments, Many have likened our response to coronavirus to fighting instead of 12. For people who are going through that a war. If that is true, the aftermath should be equally so, right now,my recommendation is that they should consider with a renewed national effort to fight the inequality, getting the advance. As I say, the total annual payment poverty and insecurity that should have no place in this will be spread over the year. country at any time. On universal credit regulations relating to maternity Dr Coffey: I thank the hon. Gentleman and welcome allowance and statutory maternity pay, I will look into him to his position. We are in an unusual place today— that for the hon. Gentleman and write to him. I know literally, as he is appearing virtually for our first exchange that quite a lot of consideration has been given to the in a statement—but we will be seeing each other again different rates supporting people in maternity, but I will next Monday at questions. write to him on that. On legacy benefits, I should stress that the increase to On people only receiving statutory sick pay, I point working tax credits and universal credit is only temporary out to the House that that is a legal minimum, but one —until 12 months from when it was applied. There are of the purposes of the furlough scheme was that people, two things here. First, we have a digital UC system. The instead of being made unemployed, had this opportunity. working tax credit system is digital. It is far more Of course, if people are sick, an employer is entitled to straightforward and it was quick to change that. It would do statutory sick pay. I should also point out that the take quite some time to change the legacy benefits furlough scheme can be applied straightaway for people system—I am talking about several months—with the who have been shielded and cannot go to work and process we have. When we make changes to benefits, cannot work from home,and we are encouraging employers they tend to happen four or five months before the to do so. actual changes come through, because that is how long it takes our computer systems to work. Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con) [V]: The extraordinary Secondly, the statutory sick pay weekly rate is about level of support that my right hon. Friend has described £95. The change to UC is about £94. We anticipate and is certainly welcome in Aylesbury and it is undoubtedly hope that people will be on UC for a quite a short time assisting thousands of households. I join others in while we go through this significant emergency. It was, paying tribute to all the staff in the Department and as I pointed out, straightforward to change that. There branches of Jobcentre Plus for making that happen. are other things that people will benefit from, including It would be helpful if my right hon. Friend could the work we have been doing on mortgage holidays, on describe the ways in which these unprecedented levels of stopping renters being evicted due to issues connected support from the DWP can help owner-directors of to covid-19, and on electricity pre-payment. No utility small limited companies, many of whom have written to supplier will restrict supply due to issues at this time. me because they are mainly paid by dividends, so they On the benefit cap, I said in my statement that it is are not entitled to the assistance scheme for the self- not the intention to change fundamentally the process, employed. To be clear, these are not multimillionaires, principles or application of universal credit. I am conscious but hard-working hairdressers, make-up artists, decorators of the benefit cap, but we are still talking about a potential and electricians. They have lost their income and would yearly income outside London of £20,000, or £23,000 in really welcome her assistance. London, being given to benefits claimants. I am conscious that that could effectively be something like a £25,000 Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend is right to speak up for to £30,000 take-home salary after we take into account the people he represents, and especially small business taxation and similar, so I do not think it is necessary owners, who have set up their companies in particular right now to change the benefit cap. What I do want to ways—I am sure that they were well advised by accountants point out to the hon. Gentleman is that claimants may at the time on the optimal way to do that. It is fair to say benefit from a nine-month grace period, where their that the self-employed income support scheme is expected UC will not be capped if they have a sustained work to cover 95% of people who receive the majority of record. their income from self-employment, but if not, I recommend On the savings threshold, there is no universal credit that those other people look online at their potential eligibility where people have savings of £16,000. UC is eligibility for universal credit. We have removed the designed to help the poorest in society. I am conscious minimum income floor—an assumed level of income in 427 Covid-19: DWP Update4 MAY 2020 Covid-19: DWP Update 428

[Dr Coffey] it takes to process certain kinds of payments I have made it clear to my officials that we then need to move universal credit for self-employed people—so that should people back. We are in the key peak of payments this no longer be considered when trying to calculate the week, with the largest uptake of applications, and I am benefits for which they may be eligible. confident that we will get through that with at least 90%, if not an even higher rate, of people getting their Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) [V]: I thank the payments on time. Secretary of State for advance sight of her statement. I I have already answered the question about why the wish to put on record my thanks to the DWP staff, who legacy benefits have not increased. On the question are continuing to work hard to deliver social security about making an advance a grant, that comes back to benefits as quickly as possible in very difficult circumstances, the principle that getting an advance effectively means but the circumstances have been made more difficult by people have 13 payments in a year instead of 12 to cover the decisions of the UK Government, who have introduced the annual allocation to which people are entitled. bureaucratic support schemes instead of a far simpler Nearly 700,000 people have received an advance, while universal basic payment with a longer view towards nearly 1.8 million people have applied for universal universal basic income. Millions have been forced on to credit and those others have not sought to have an still inadequate universal credit, and despite DWP staff advance. So it would not be fair to the other new being moved to cope with the UC demand, over 200,000 claimants if one group of people got more money than people had their UC claim paid late, according to the they did simply because they had applied for an advance. UK Government’s best estimate. Because DWP staff On the increasing use of food banks, extensive work have been moved to help process UC claims, MPs and is going on across Government. The Under-Secretary other advice organisations are not getting casework of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the inquiries answered in the normal way, which is also Member for Colchester (Will Quince), is involved in a causing unfair hardship. taskforce on helping vulnerable people. I am conscious On the last day that I contributed in this House— of the increase in food bank usage and the Under-Secretary 18 March—before lockdown, I said that people needed of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my help in hours, not days, yet the people applying for hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis), universal credit in that week will have only just received and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for their first payment a few days ago. The British Government Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are doing excellent must finally stop the five-week wait. They claimed that work in making sure we can work with them to ensure they cannot solve it by making the advance payment food can get to the most vulnerable people in society. system a grant rather than a loan because of vulnerability While recognising the increase in food bank usage, I to fraud, so why not make the advance a grant when the point out that we have had a sixfold increase in the applicant is confirmed as eligible for universal credit? number of people claiming UC and we are making sure I would appreciate proper consideration of that proposal. we get our money to them. Airdrie food bank in my constituency has reported a 47% increase in demand for its services since the onset Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con) [V]: I of covid-19. That should focus minds. thank the Secretary of State for her statement and join The Prime Minister said that nobody would get left my colleagues in paying tribute to the excellent DWP behind, so why has there not been an uplift in legacy staff who have been working unprecedented hours to benefits, such as employment and support allowance, as try to get support to the people in our country who there has been to universal credit? Finally, will the need it. Government scrap the immoral, poverty-inducing two-child The impact of coronavirus means more people in limit, the bedroom tax and the benefit cap, and will they Bishop Auckland and across the country have been uprate all benefits to make up for the years of cuts that applying for UC, so what steps is my right hon. Friend came through the benefit freeze? 1.7% just does not taking to ensure that new claimants in Bishop Auckland come close. and beyond receive their first payments swiftly?

Dr Coffey: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his questions. Dr Coffey: The UC approach remains the same: we In terms of bureaucratic schemes, the Government have make an assessment of people’s incomes, and those worked at pace to introduce brand new schemes in order already on UC whose income fell substantially will have to protect people right across the country. We have seen seen their UC payment increase as a result. So it is the success of the job retention scheme. The self-employed working for new claimants once they have got through scheme is under way. Significant flexibility has been put the initial claim. That is straightforward. I appreciate into that system to help people who may not have had that there were difficulties early on in getting online three years of earnings to give them time to submit their identity verification, but the process should be very latest tax return promptly to get support. smooth now, and for those people who cannot make ends meet the advance option is there, and people can There is a variety of analysis on universal basic get that money very quickly. income. The latest report I saw estimated it would cost over £400 billion a year. It is not targeted at the poorest Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab) [V]: I join the in society and is not an appropriate way for us to try to Secretary of State and others in commending the distribute money. Instead, our schemes are focused on Department’s staff for handling the recent surge. I also making sure that the poorest do get help. welcome higher UC, working tax credit and local housing On DWP staff being moved from department to allowance, and it sounds from the Secretary of State’s department, we have made sure that we are monitoring earlier answer that she agrees that jobseeker’s allowance performance and where there are increases in how long and employment and support allowance should have 429 Covid-19: DWP Update4 MAY 2020 Covid-19: DWP Update 430 been increased as well; it is unfair that they have not is devolved, so if he wanted he could lobby the Northern been. The unchanged benefit cap is now blocking increased Ireland Executive, and they might be able to devise a support the Government have decided people should scheme that they think is more appropriate locally. receive, and that is having a particular effect in London. It could be increased, so will the Government now be Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con) [V]: May I more consistent in supporting people’s extra costs during join in thanking all the staff at the DWP, and indeed the this crisis? Secretary of State and her team, and in particular, the staff at Epsom jobcentre, for dealing with the current Dr Coffey: I should point out to the right hon. crisis as effectively as they have? Will she look again at Gentleman that we were trying to make a short-term the issue of LHA for the areas immediately outside increase, we went through with the Treasury how we London, as there are still anomalies that particularly could do this quickly, and the quickest ways were by affect my constituency, and of course there will be a increasing the local housing allowance and UC, rather greater need for housing support. Will she look at the than other benefits, as I have mentioned. On the situation level of support to make sure that it really is related to in London, I am conscious that aspects of the housing the local rental market? benefit regulations went through a month ago, but not all councils have applied them. What we have done with Dr Coffey: LHA is done on the basis of certain the thresholds means that people in London should be housing areas, and the Chancellor announced a significant able to see an increase in the amount of money they get change in order to bring this up to the 30th percentile. in housing support, but otherwise it is not the Government’s I say to my right hon. Friend that councils across the intention to change the current threshold of the benefit cap. country have been receiving discretionary housing payments—separate from the hardship fund. That was Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) [V]: I wish to ongoing, and we added £40 million to it for this financial follow on from the point made by my hon. Friend the year prior to this situation. I encourage anyone who is Member for Aylesbury (Rob Butler) about directors of still struggling in his local area to go directly to the small companies. The Government have done very well council for some support. to protect people on PAYE and people who are self- employed, but directors of small companies fall through Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab) [V]: the cracks and it really is not good enough just to say, During this crisis, the Government have rightly stopped “They can fall back on universal credit”, because in recovering overpayments from universal credit recipients, many cases they will not qualify and because we have but they are still deducting money from those who are protected other sectors. We must do better, and we must given an advance payment. We need the five-week wait sort out how we are going to protect the directors of to be scrapped, so that people do not need advance small companies. payments. Will the Secretary of State confirm today that the Government will defer any recovery of advance Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend will know, having been an payments until after the crisis has passed? accountant, that a variety of people will potentially receive dividends from a company, and it is not currently Dr Coffey: The way that advance payments are recovered possible for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to is by treating it in effect as a phasing issue, so that know whether somebody has given this to themselves in people have 13 payments over a year, instead of 12. As a lieu of a salary or whether it is a payment to an investor. consequence, elements will be removed from the following It is a different situation where people have chosen to 12 payments so that the annual total is the same. finance their income from the business in that way, and he will be aware that the rate of tax on paying dividends Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con) [V]: is 7.5%, once someone goes above the dividends allowance. May I begin by heartily congratulating the Secretary of How people who are self-employed through a normal State and all the staff at the DWP on the astonishing PAYE scheme would pay aspects of national insurance achievement of handling 1.8 million applicants for universal and tax directly is quite different. The Treasury, in credit and clearing 1 million? I draw her attention to devising the scheme, has sought to try to identify as those people, many of them self-employed, on working many people as possible it could help, and achieving tax credits. They were encouraged by the Government that for 95% of self-employed people is a pretty good to apply for universal credit, not knowing that at the outcome. moment they applied for universal credit, they automatically lost by law working tax credit. Some of them now find Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) [V]: There is that because they have been prudent—they had set aside growing support for a recovery universal basic income, money for pensions and they had savings—they do not and it is being considered in other parts of the world. qualify under current rules for universal credit and I would dispute what the Secretary of State has said cannot go back and claim for working tax credits. I have about the costings, and stress to her that it can be had letters from her Department talking about new-style supported through wider changes to the taxation system. employment and support allowance and the new self- Given the current cliff edge on the job retention scheme, employment income support scheme, which are very the danger of vast redundancies, pressures on UC and welcome. Will she go back to those people and make it the need to inject spending into the recovery to kick-start clear that they have the right to apply for these schemes, recovery, will she at least urgently work with the Treasury because many of them are not accustomed to dealing to explore that option? with the benefits system and only went through the process under Government encouragement? Dr Coffey: No, I will not, and I have already set out why I do not think a universal basic income is the right Dr Coffey: First, I thank my right hon. Friend for approach. The hon. Gentleman is a Northern Ireland praising staff at the DWP. He is right to do so, and I Member and will be aware that responsibility for welfare thank him for that. I am very aware of the issue he is 431 Covid-19: DWP Update4 MAY 2020 Covid-19: DWP Update 432

[Dr Coffey] I also thank the DWP staff across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and in particular bringing to my attention, and I am actively looking at those in Strangford, who have done a whole lot to help that particular scenario, where people, not realising people. some of the eligibility rules, have then made the application The Secretary of State referred to self-employed directors. and are no longer effectively going to receive working Hospitality,retail, fishing, construction and bus companies tax credits. I cannot give an answer to my right hon. invest their profit back into their companies, as well as Friend or the House today, but I assure him that I am self-employed directors.Many of these are family businesses looking very carefully into what changes we could make creating many jobs in the high street. Exactly what can to address that situation. I have already asked for the be done to help the self-employed directors in shops in website to be updated, so that people are crystal clear Newtownards, Comber, Ballynahinch, Saintfield and when they apply. villages across the constituency of Strangford?

Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD) [V]: May I, too, thank Dr Coffey: It is good to see my hon. Friend doing well the staff at the DWP for their very hard work? The over in Northern Ireland. I want to stress again that the hospitality, arts and tourism sectors, which are vital scheme established by the Treasury will cover about industries in my constituency, will not recover overnight, 95% of people who receive the majority of their income even when the restrictions are lifted. Many of my from self-employment. I have tried to share with the constituents will have no option but to go on universal House some of the approach taken in order to support credit, with no job prospects any time soon. Does the people who pay themselves only, in effect, by dividends. Secretary of State think—she has even been reminding As I pointed out earlier, a small percentage of people company directors of their eligibility for universal credit get the majority of their income in that way, on which, —that the current universal credit allowance of just in effect, they pay only 7.5% tax. I am conscious that it under £5,000 a year for the over-25s is enough to live a cannot be decided whether dividends are solely for dignified life? substitute pay or whether they are a return on investment, but I encourage those people to consider other forms of Dr Coffey: With regard to the hospitality and tourism support that may be available at this time. sector, the hon. Lady will be aware of the generous approach taken by the Government, whether that is Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con) [V]: I join the grants, the furlough scheme or the other reliefs that are acknowledgement of the superb effort of all the staff at being applied. The figure that she quotes is solely the the DWP, who have processed 1.8 million universal standard allowance. There are other elements of universal credit applications. I also want to acknowledge all the credit that people may be entitled to, such as if they financial support that the Treasury has brought forward, have children or housing costs. It is the rolling up of six including the bounce-back loans today. Will my right benefits into one. She focuses only on one, which equates hon. Friend please look at what can be done to support currently to about £94 a week. I think that is a reasonable self-employed limited company directors, as well as assumption, disregarding the other costs. freelancers and those who started a new job in March Stuart Anderson (Wolverhampton South West) (Con) and therefore cannot be furloughed? There are other [V]: I recognise the exceptional work that the DWP is groups who need extra support. doing at this time. I also want to applaud the work that everybody in Wolverhampton is doing, from following Dr Coffey: Several of those groups of people who are the Government guidance to caring for loved ones. seeking support may well be able to get support through What plans does my right hon. Friend have to provide universal credit. I am conscious that the design of the support for people who have informal carers who are furlough scheme and the self-employed scheme does having to shield themselves during the covid pandemic? not address every single worker or self-employed person in this country. I know that the Treasury worked at pace Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend is right to praise people to establish those schemes, and they do cover the vast who have been undertaking that role. My Department majority of people who are now seeking support. has introduced two important temporary measures to recognise changes to caring during the current emergency. Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) First, unpaid carers will be able to continue to claim (Lab) [V]: Last week, I was contacted by a constituent carer’s allowance if they have a temporary break in who has a heart condition. He is also immobile because caring because they or the person they care for gets of a problem with his spine, and he has had a liver coronavirus or has to isolate because of it. We have also transplant. He applied for personal independence payments made sure that, rather than just more traditional forms in October 2019 and has still not had a reply. When I of care, providing emotional support to a disabled contacted the DWP, I was told that, because of covid-19, person will now count towards the carer’s allowance there would be delays in responding to me, but that threshold of 35 hours of care a week. This recognises application was from October. I am sure the Secretary that the nature of caring might have to change during of State agrees that that is unacceptable, so what is she the current emergency. going to do to ensure that benefits are processed in a reasonable timeframe? Mr Speaker: We now go over to a virtual Jim Shannon. Dr Coffey: In the light of what has been happening, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP) [V]: Thank you, we have tried to streamline the process. I do not know Mr Speaker; it is always a pleasure to ask a question. the details of the individual case to which the hon. Lady I thank the Secretary of State for her energy and refers, and I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister commitment and her responses to the questions so far. for Disabled People, Health and Work would be happy 433 Covid-19: DWP Update4 MAY 2020 Covid-19: DWP Update 434 to look into that situation. I do not know whether no Beth Winter (Cynon Valley) (Lab) [V]: Many of my assessment had been made at all or whether the outcome constituents suffered financial hardship and poverty was being contested. I want to make sure that we are before covid-19 struck, with the delays in universal not ignoring situations and that new claims are still credit, the processing of personal independence payments, being processed, but I accept that there may be people the child benefit cap, low wages and insecure employment. we need to follow up on, and I would be happy for my That has been multiplied by the coronavirus, with hon. Friend to do that on the hon. Lady’s behalf. communities, individuals and businesses seriously affected. Our local citizens advice bureau has been inundated Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con) [V]: Despite the enormous with welfare benefit queries, and I thank it and all local support being given to business, many people are newly agencies for their hard work. It is time the Government unemployed. What steps are being taken to highlight to began to face the financial realities and hardship of them the job opportunities in growing sectors of the people’s lives. Will the Minister please agree to consider economy? introducing a recovery universal basic income to help achieve a sustained economic recovery? It could become Dr Coffey: I am pleased that we have added to the foundation for a future social security system that the jobs website on dwp.gov.uk, and there are about provides financial security for everyone. 58,000 vacancies currently advertised there.I am supportive Dr Coffey: No. of all the work that has gone on under my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education, such as on Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con) [V]: Rugby jobcentre how people can get new skills, including through courses plus was one of the first to go to full-service universal that are being made available online. There are, therefore, credit, and the staff there have been providing support opportunities to consider upskilling while people are, to their colleagues in other offices, which is very important sadly, not working, and people can also speak to their at a time when registrations are running at six times work coaches about potential further assistance. their usual level. I know the Secretary of State will join me in thanking all the staff for their hard work to make Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): It cannot be fair that certain that the system runs smoothly. What is her families on the benefit cap are not benefiting from the assessment of what might have happened if we had not uprating of payments that has happened during this taken the tough decisions to modernise and streamline crisis. The Resolution Foundation has predicted that, in the welfare system and we were still operating under the over two thirds of local authority areas, a couple with highly complicated legacy system? two children in an average three-bedroom house will be affected by the cap. We know that covid-19 will affect Dr Coffey: I have to say some unkind words: judging poorer families more than other sections of our community. by my hon. Friend’s new attire, I wonder whether he is Is it not time that we moved the benefit cap to stop this seeking his pension. However, he asks a serious question situation getting worse? which deserves a serious answer. The reality is that—and I have been told this by my senior officials—there is no Dr Coffey: As I have already said to the House, there way that the legacy benefits system would have been may be claimants who could benefit from a nine-month able to cope. The move to universal credit has been grace period, where their universal credit will not be successful. We still want to make sure that it rolls out capped if they have a sustained work record. On other universally, but I think it has shown that it has absolutely raises that have happened in terms of housing, changes stood the biggest test of all. have been made that should help people, particularly in Amy Callaghan (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP) [V]: central and outer London. However, in general, the Small increases in universal credit allowances are not principle is not to remove the benefit cap. enough, particularly because many people will lose that uplift due to the benefit cap. I appreciate that the Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con) [V]: We Secretary of State has noted in previous answers that rightly hail all our health workers for the amazing job she sees no need to move the benefit cap, but I see the they are doing, but it is good that we are hearing praise need for it in my constituency of East Dunbartonshire. for DWP staff this afternoon. Down in Bexhill and Will she review the decision and finally lift the benefit Hastings, they have been absolutely amazing, as they cap so that people will actually receive the temporary have been across the country. When I asked my office increase in support that they so desperately need? what cases we had outstanding, the answer was zero. When I asked how the performance level rated, I was Dr Coffey: We will not be changing the benefit cap. told, “Better than ever.” On that basis, will the Secretary Gary Sambrook (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con) [V]: of State look at whether we are using more discretion I thank the Secretary of State for visiting the Longbridge now that could also be used in future? Obviously, we jobcentre with me back in March. We both saw at first have to keep a cost-control mindset and commonality hand that work coaches do a fantastic job supporting of decision making, but it seems there are positive people into employment, but their ability to meet people lessons that can be learned, and I thank my right hon. in person has, quite rightly, been restricted due to the Friend and her team for everything they have done. lockdown. Can my right hon. Friend update the House on the support being given to work coaches so that they Dr Coffey: It is kind of my hon. Friend to thank can continue to provide support to claimants despite DWP. I think it deserves, universally, credit. We are those restrictions? trying to learn from the streamlining we have done on the potential for permanent future changes, so that we Dr Coffey: As well as having a relationship with see the enhanced processing we have successfully undertaken claimants, many work coaches have been deployed into over the last few weeks. processing claims. Both those things are critical to 435 Covid-19: DWP Update4 MAY 2020 Covid-19: DWP Update 436

[Dr Coffey] money from the announcement, and to reiterate the rules and the way in which they will be paid over the making sure that the 1.8 million people can get paid on next few months? I think that it would be useful and time, and they deserve a tribute for that. As we get over helpful to let people understand just what the Government this peak, I think we will see work coaches being able to are doing to make sure that they are looked after and resume other work with their claimants. paid for the long term.

Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab) [V]: There have Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend will be aware that self- been more than 82,000 new claims for universal credit employed people will have 80% of their profits reimbursed in Wales. That is unprecedented and I echo the thanks in the form of a grant. I know that it will take some time to DWP staff, but some people are still struggling to get for the system to be delivered; my understanding is that support with their new claims, including the constituent payments will start within a month, but in the meantime, who could not get through on the phone and had to there may be people who are currently self-employed walk for 45 minutes to get help because she cannot who could seek support from universal credit. afford internet access. May I urge the Secretary of State to make it much easier to access support with new Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP) [V]: claims, including by ending the five-week wait? I was horrified to discover that, contrary to the announcement that personal independence payment Dr Coffey: We do not intend to end the five-week recipients would be entitled to a three-month extension, wait—that is where advances can help. The hon. Lady is my constituent—a lone parent with severe mental health right to point out the difficulties people have with problems—will not be. Why not? Because, as the PIP telephony. We have turned that system around, so it hotline confirmed to my caseworker, if someone’s award should be more straightforward now that the DWP was decided by a tribunal—in other words, if they were calls claimants rather than the other way around. forced to fight the DWP for that lifeline and that entitlement —they will again be treated differently from all other Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con) [V]: PIP recipients, and the three-month safeguard will not May I join colleagues in thanking DWP staff, particularly apply to them. Can that seriously be true? If so, why? those in West Worcestershire who have worked so hard throughout this crisis? The Secretary of State has been Dr Coffey: As I set out, where people were due to asked a number of times about universal basic income have a reassessment, the situation would arise in which and has resolutely rejected it. Can she confirm that a we extend the award automatically by just three months. universal basic income would have to be paid universally People who are in a tribunal process are those who have —to everybody—including people like us? challenged the decisions; therefore the question of what Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We award they have received will be the one that is under know that it is not a well-targeted system, and that is debate and review. why we will continue to say that it is not the approach that this Government will take. May I also wish a Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con) [V]: We know belated happy birthday to my hon. Friend, who turned that coronavirus has seen the loss of loved ones in many a significant age at the weekend? families across the UK. What steps are being taken to ensure that widows, widowers and their families are Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab) [V]: being supported? What improvements are being made Recently the Secretary of State said that she was confident to bereavement benefits for widows and widowers? that the system was working. Prior to this pandemic, more than 8 million people struggled to access food, Dr Coffey: The bereavement support payment supports and now a further 8 million households with children working-age people who have lost a spouse or civil have lost their income.With food banks reporting increased partner after 6 April 2017 by contributing to the more footfall of more than 100%, can she please explain what immediate additional costs associated with bereavement. possible grounds she had for that misplaced confidence People without children get an initial payment of £2,500 and her continued justification for the five-week wait for and 18 subsequent monthly payments of £100; those universal credit, the two-child policy and the benefit cap? with children receive an initial payment of £3,500 and 18 subsequent payments of £350. Bereavement support Dr Coffey: The fundamentals of universal credit do payment is not taxable, and the least well-off will gain not change. The reason for the assessment period is to the most, as they receive the payment in full alongside understand people’s general income and use that as a any other benefit entitlements. basis, but that is where the advances come in: to help people who cannot make ends meet in between. As I Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) [V]: Mental and said, fewer than half of people who have applied for physical health conditions should not be a barrier to universal credit have also wanted an advance. We are finding work. That is why, working with the Department getting the vast majority of that money to people for Work and Pensions, we launched Working Win, an within three days and I think that that shows that the employment programme that has now helped 3,000 people system is flexible enough to help those who need it across South Yorkshire. Does the Secretary of State most. recognise the value of programmes such as Working Win? Will she commit to providing funding to support our Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) most vulnerable workers through the covid-19 crisis? (Con) [V]: The Secretary of State has made very clear how the system is working, and it is working very well, Dr Coffey: The Department supports a number of but will she take the chance to address some of the schemes around the country; I am not aware of the specific issues for self-employed people, who are still waiting for one to which the hon. Gentleman refers.They will continue, 437 Covid-19: DWP Update4 MAY 2020 Covid-19: DWP Update 438

I am sure, to be supported more broadly, but each and Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) [V]: May I every one will be evaluated, because we need to make remind the House that back in March, when I wrote to sure that the money that we have has the best reach. I the Secretary of State to ask what emergency measures am sure that he will continue to lobby for that case in were in place to allow the Department to cope with the South Yorkshire. increase in new universal credit claims, I was told that the Department would redeploy staff and review priority Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con): [V] It is clear of work? The Secretary of State has repeated that today. that confusion remains about who can and cannot go to However, I am afraid to say that, months into the crisis, work. I receive questions every day about whether any I still have constituents who are being told that the given company is essential and, if it is not, whether it waiting time is eight hours when calling the claim line. should be closed. What steps is my right hon. Friend As a result, many have been forced to use food banks for taking to make the current guidance and any future the first time. Given the ongoing issues that my constituents guidance clear? May I suggest that some kind of public are experiencing, will the Secretary of State give resolving information campaign be considered? the technical and capacity issues the highest priority by providing clearer guidance to the public and the hard- Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend is right to raise that matter. working DWP staff on the correct process for making Our communication about staying at home has been digital and non-digital universal credit claims? very effective, but we have also said from the start that people should try to work from home, but that if they Dr Coffey: We did have telephony issues, but I am led cannot and are able to go to work, they should go to to believe that they have been significantly addressed, work. The Government will provide further advice in particularly with the “Don’t call us—we’ll call you” the coming weeks to employers and trade unions about campaign. I recommend that the hon. Lady considers how to make workplaces safer. We have set out how work asking her constituents to use the journal when necessary. must be done in the workplace, including tailored advice I appreciate that they do not all have internet access, but for different scenarios, as examples of how employers the average waiting time should now be considerably might implement social distancing and other measures lower. The last I heard, it was, on average, about five to help protect their workforce and customers. Wecontinue minutes. I ask her to look into that. to learn from each other, including in this House. Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab) [V]: I Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con) [V]: May I am pleased to hear that the Secretary of State is fixing add my thanks to the DWP team, particularly those some of the glitches in universal credit—a system that based in Warrington, who have helped process claims many of us thought was woefully inadequate, and we swiftly for my constituents in the last six weeks? On have perhaps the biggest unemployment increase since Friday, I visited Warrington foodbank to meet the the ’30s on the way. Will the right hon. Lady consider volunteers who are working hard to support families in the matter in the round and do two small things: relax my constituency who have fallen on difficult times. One the savings threshold, because many people losing their of the concerns they raised is the speed of recovery businesses find that prohibitive; and replenish some of when universal credit is advanced. Does my right hon. our reservoirs for discretionary housing payment in Ealing? Friend agree that it is important to ensure that anyone A housing crisis was already under way in Ealing, who receives an advance of their benefits is given a Acton and Chiswick, and it is only getting worse. reasonable timeframe to pay it back? Dr Coffey: On the question about the self-employed, Dr Coffey: The advance is currently recovered over where people have assets—for example, savings set aside 12 months, so in a year, somebody will get 13 payments for paying tax—they need to check carefully and go instead of 12. I should also point out to my hon. Friend through that as they make their claim, because it will that any deductions are made at a maximum of 30% of not be considered part of savings with regard to the the UC payable. That will help several people as well. £16,000 threshold. On housing, we have increased the local housing allowance,and I am sure that the discretionary Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) housing payments have gone to Ealing Council. It is (SNP) [V]: Many people have had to apply for universal open for councils to come back to central Government credit for the first time, but it is clear that, despite DWP if they would like that to be raised substantially. staff working hard, the system simply cannot cope, and it was never intended to operate under such extreme Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con) [V]: It is circumstances. Constituents are waiting weeks for DWP clear from the Secretary of State’s statement and her phone calls and those unable to verify their identity answers to questions from Members that universal credit online are told that the application does not exist, and has been much more effective at scaling up to deal with therefore they cannot claim. What is the Secretary of the unprecedented level of claims arising from the State doing to prioritise new claims for universal credit, coronavirus pandemic. I know from my constituents’ many of which are from people who have paid money experience that we get half the number of problems that into the system for decades and now find that their we got with the legacy benefits. May I therefore take the contribution means next to nothing? opportunity to thank all the staff, including those in my constituency, who have delivered universal credit? May Dr Coffey: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman; they continue to do so. I think UC has reacted very well to the increased challenge. However, I would say to him that there were Dr Coffey: My right hon. Friend is right. The old initially problems with the online verification. There system would not have coped with what universal credit is an additional scheme called “Confirm your identity”, has done. It has helped more than 1.8 million people and between that and “Verify” it should be very making that claim. straightforward for people to get through that part of 439 Covid-19: DWP Update4 MAY 2020 Covid-19: DWP Update 440

[Dr Coffey] Remote division Business Timings designation the claim. I can assure him that he can also arrange for constituents to contact the DWP helpline and be processed Public Health: Up to 120 minutes None that way, too. (1) motion to approve the Health Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): What Protection (Coronavirus, increment in expenditure has the Treasury provided to Restrictions) my right hon. Friend’s Department since the onset of (England) this coronavirus? Regulations 2020; and Dr Coffey: Our new estimates are being published (2) motion to today or tomorrow, I believe, so I will refer my right approve the hon. Friend to that for the particular element of delegated Health Protection (Coronavirus, spend. Overall, however, we estimate an increase of Restrictions) about £6.5 billion in welfare benefits for the nation. (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 4.36 pm More than two hours having elapsed since the commencement Pensions: Up to 90 minutes None of hybrid scrutiny proceedings, the Speaker brought them (1) motion to to a conclusion (Order, 21 April). approve the draft Automatic Enrolment (Offshore Mr Speaker: Order.I suspend the House for 30 minutes— Employment) until 5.6 pm. It may be helpful if I tell the House that I (Amendment) Order propose to continue with 30-minute suspensions from 2020; and now on, but I may review the timings in the future. (2) motion to Thank you, everybody. approve the draft Occupational and Personal Pension 4.36 pm Schemes (Automatic Sitting suspended. Enrolment) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 5.6 pm Environment Bill No debate (Standing None On resuming, the House entered into hybrid substantive (Programme) Order No. 83A(5)) proceedings (Order, 22 April). (No. 2) [NB: [V] denotes a Member contributing virtually.] Scottish Affairs No debate None Committee

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (4 MAY) (2) At the conclusion of each debate, the Speaker shall put the Question on each of the motions on the Order Paper relating to Motion made, the business listed in the table for that debate.—(James Morris.) That— The Speaker declared the Question to be agreed to (1) The following arrangements shall apply to today’s business: (Order (4), 22 April). 441 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 442

Public Health That is why, in these regulations, the Government introduce three main social distancing measures: requiring [Relevant documents: Joint Committee on Human Rights, people to stay at home as far as possible, with only very Chair’s Briefing Paper:Coronavirus Restrictions Regulations limited exceptions; closing certain businesses and venues; and Lockdown, HC 265; Joint Committee on Human and stopping gatherings of more than two people in Rights: Background Paper: Covid-19, HC 265.] public. These regulations are similar to those introduced by other countries. We have worked closely with the 5.7 pm devolved Administrations, to whom I should also pay The Minister for Health (Edward Argar): I beg to tribute, in developing and reviewing these measures. move, The main statutory instrument, No. 350, requires That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) enforcement of the closure of some businesses and Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 350), dated 26 March 2020, a restrictions on others from 12 pm on 26 March 2020. As copy of which was laid before this House on 26 March, be set out in the notes, the regulations require the closure approved. of drinking establishments, including bars, pubs and nightclubs, and food and drink venues with consumption Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): With on-site, excluding hospitals, schools, care homes, homeless this we shall take the following motion: services and prison canteens, as well as other exemptions. That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulation 4(4) requires the closure of entertainment (Amendment) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 447), dated 21 April venues including cinemas, theatres, concert halls, bingo 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 22 April, be halls, museums, galleries, spas, hairdressing and massage approved. parlours, casinos, funfairs, libraries, community centres, The Minister is asked to speak for no more than and non-food outdoor markets. Regulation 5(1) requires 12 minutes. businesses offering goods for sale or for hire, or providing library services, to cease to do so except in response to Edward Argar: These sets of regulations were made orders received online, by telephone or by mail order. by the Secretary of State on 26 March and 21 April Types of businesses specified in part 3 of schedule 2 are respectively. Following the return of the House after the exempt from these restrictions. Regulation 5(2) excludes Easter recess, they are rightly being brought before the hot and cold food collection and delivery from the House today for the scrutiny and debate that they require. closure restrictions. Regulations 5(3) and 5(4) require They are exceptional measures, brought forward to reflect hotels and similar establishments to remain open for exceptional challenges and times, but although it is permanent residence only to persons in a hotel because right that these regulations—necessary to meet the public they are moving home, attending a funeral, or unable to health needs of the coronavirus pandemic—are brought return home. forward, it is also right that we ensure that this House is able to play its proper role, and that due process and the The second set of regulations, No. 447, makes a small rule of law are maintained. With that in mind, I thank number of consequential amendments to improve the the shadow Minister and the Opposition parties for operational implementation of the main regulations. facilitating this debate taking place today. These regulations are made under section 45C of the The country has been, and still is, engaged in a Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, with Her national effort to beat coronavirus covid-19. Delivering Majesty’s Government clear that the powers under that a strategy designed to ensure that our NHS is protected, Act are sufficient to introduce them. with capacity at all times exceeding the demand for Given the impact that these regulations have on intensive care beds for coronavirus patients, flattening individuals and businesses, notwithstanding the huge the peak, and driving down the rate of transmission of support package announced by my right hon. Friend disease and the number of infections, alongside the the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I know that a number work to significantly expand NHS capacity,have all helped of issues relating to these regulations have been raised to protect our NHS and to save lives. Sadly, although in recent days by members of the public and, indeed, by this has been working, there have been many who have hon. Members, and I will touch on those now. However, died from this disease—each and every one of them a I will endeavour to respond more fully to specific points tragedy, and each and every one a real person. Our raised by Members when I wind up the debate. thoughts are with all their friends and families at this First, there is the question of enforcement. The Joint time. I also put on record all of our continued thanks Committee on Human Rights and others have expressed and appreciation to NHS and care workers, and to key concerns about variations in enforcement and in the workers around the country, for the phenomenal work approach adopted to it by different police forces. As that they are doing caring for people and keeping the hon. Members will be aware, guidance was issued to United Kingdom going. police forces, and this has continued to be updated and The regulations we debate today have played a crucial clarified. It is important that the police operate within role in the success we are seeing in reducing infection the law, which is the law as it is set out in these transmission levels. They impose significant demands regulations, and that guidance is treated as just that— upon individuals and society as a whole, with impacts on clarifying guidance. business, the economy and daily life, and I do understand The British people have been amazing in their collective the sacrifices people are making at this time, their response to the restrictions, and compliance has been very frustrations, and, indeed, their anxieties. But these high. However, a very small minority have not always regulations are necessary,because the single most important complied. The police have been doing their very challenging step we can all take to beating this disease is to stay at job at this time with dedication and, by and large, home in order to reduce the spread and to protect pragmatism. The approach of “engage, explain, encourage, ourselves and others. and only then enforce where it is absolutely necessary” 443 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 444

[Edward Argar] because whether we support these measures or not, given that they represent the biggest peacetime restrictions is the right one. The small number of examples, while that this country has ever seen, they do demand full important, of what can seem like over-enthusiastic parliamentary scrutiny. I do not intend this to be a enforcement should not detract from the fantastic work criticism of the Minister or anyone else, because we all being done by the police across the country. know the efforts that have been made to get this place The final aspect of the regulations that I draw attention up and running again, but a couple of hours’ debate to is the requirement that they be reviewed every 21 days, weeks after the regulations were introduced cannot in to ensure that they remain necessary and appropriate. future be sufficient to provide the level of examination The first review took place on 16 April, with the First and scrutiny that such sweeping laws require. Secretary of State confirming that they would remain in We all know the damage that this virus is doing to place. The next review is due on 7 May. I am aware of our society, and we all know that these measures are the desire of Members and across the country for more needed to limit that damage, but we should not forget detail on the UK’s progress and future steps, which I their impact—the business shut down overnight with understand. The review on 7 May will consider the no idea if or when it might trade again; the child who necessity of the regulations against the public health cannot understand why they cannot see their friends aim, including the five considerations set out by my any more; the grandparents cut off from their family, right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State: first, that missing out on their grandchildren growing up. Everyone the NHS can provide critical care across the UK; secondly, is facing their own challenges. The physical and mental that there is a sustained and consistent fall in the daily toll is huge, yet virtually everyone is adhering to these death rate; thirdly, that infection rates decrease to an rules in a way that is a testament to the resolve and acceptable level; fourthly,that supplies of personal protective determination of the British people. So we say thank equipment and testing meet future demand; and fifthly, you to everyone who has played their part in slowing that evidence is clear that any changes will not risk a the spread of the virus. second peak of the virus. We acknowledge that this is incredibly difficult, and The Prime Minister has set out that further we do not want these measures to be in place for a day announcements on this will be made soon. As he said longer than is absolutely necessary. The first duty of on Thursday last week, the Government will set out a any Government is to protect its citizens, and if it is comprehensive plan this week, which will explain how necessary to curtail basic freedoms—freedoms for which we will get our economy moving while continuing to people have fought and died—to protect them, reality suppress the disease. It will set out how we will seek to dictates that that is what has to happen. That reality get life back to normal for as many people as we can, as must be accompanied by openness, accountability and quickly, equitably and fairly as we can, while continuing scrutiny at a greater level than we would ordinarily see. to protect the NHS. And it will, of course, as throughout, We accept that the regulations had to be introduced continue to be guided by the best scientific and medical hurriedly in response to the rising number of infections, advice. I hope the House will understand that I do not but there is now a new rhythm to life, and there ought to intend to pre-empt what the Prime Minister might say be time and space to ensure that any future changes later this week on the basis of that advice. have democratic consent before they are introduced. It is right that we made these regulations as and when The regulations require a review every three weeks—as we did to help tackle the coronavirus/covid-19 pandemic. the Minister said, one is due in the next few days. The Her Majesty’s Government consider these regulations Secretary of State is legally required to terminate any to be proportionate and appropriate in the face of this regulations that are not necessary or proportionate to pandemic, but it is absolutely right that this House control the transmission of the virus. A statement in the properly scrutinises and debates them and their impact House following the review will provide a helpful upon our country,and I look forward to hearing Members’ examination of that requirement. I hope that when the contributions. I commend these regulations to the House. Minister responds he will commit to that and to an oral statement after each subsequent review. If that review Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Before envisages some relaxation of the measures, we hope I call the spokesman for the Opposition, I should draw that any new regulations on the back of that are debated to the attention of Members in the Chamber and who here before they are implemented and, most importantly, are going to participate by electronic means that there that they follow a wider conversation with Opposition will be a time limit of five minutes on Back-Bench parties, employers, trade unions and, of course, the contributions. I have to adhere strictly to that timetable public. in order to make these proceedings work in this unusual way, so please do not look for leniency. I also ask There are reports that that has begun to happen, but Members who are participating from home to have it needs to be done in a structured, open way, not some way of checking whether they have spoken for five through media briefings or leaks. I do not say that to minutes. I now call Justin Madders, who I ask to speak make a political point, but because I believe that consent for no more than eight minutes. for an application of the rules will be better after full and transparent dialogue than it would be without that. We need only to look at the way in which some of those 5.18 pm rules were interpreted and applied in the early days to Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): know that there was confusion about their exact meaning. We all wish that these regulations were not necessary, but Again, that is not intended as a criticism—no law, let we are all absolutely clear that, given the threat we face, alone one that is completely unprecedented in its reach they are required. Before we get into the substance of in modern times could be implemented without areas the regulations, I want to say a little bit about the process, where there is ambiguity, and clarification is required. 445 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 446

Much of that was most likely due to the unusual and Will the Minister provide clarity on the status of the sudden nature of the regulations, but even recently we 2-metre social distancing rule? It is probably the most have seen a divergence between ministerial pronouncements effective tool in helping to stop the spread of the virus, and what the law actually allows. For example, the yet it does not appear in the regulations. Does it appear Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local elsewhere? Is it actually enforceable? On the question of Government has recently said on a number of occasions enforceability, the comments today from the TUC about that tips should be able to reopen. Regulation 6 does the lack of enforceability of the proposed guidelines not state that such a visit is a reasonable excuse for that it has seen are extremely troubling. We cannot leaving home. allow people back into work unless there is confidence that a robust and enforceable system is in place to That leads to my next point—the current rules, sweeping guarantee their safety. as they are, are not numerous. If the next phase is likely to contain a longer list of reasonable excuses to leave Finally, we require clarification on the list of vulnerable home, it is even more important that those rules are people in schedule 1 of the first set of regulations. For clear and consistent. The rules need to be harmonised example, motor neurone disease appears in the schedule with advice, guidelines and all forms of official as an underlying medical condition for those in the communication. We do not want people to imply legal vulnerable category, but it is not among the high-risk authority where there is none, or to act outside the law. category of patients on the NHS shielding list. This That is vital to preserve the rule of law. We know that may well be another example of where there needs to be the lockdown was a blunt tool—effective nevertheless—and greater harmony between the regulations and other one that will change by definition as restrictions ease. guidance. There will be a measure of nuance, distinction and In conclusion, we will not oppose the regulations but, variation that requires careful explanation and policing. given that they represent the most severe restrictions People will inevitably ask why one set of businesses can imposed on British liberty in modern history, it is reopen, but not another. We believe that full disclosure critical that they are subject to continual comprehensive not just of the names of the attendees of the Scientific and transparent scrutiny. Democracy demands no less. Group for Emergencies but of all the scientific evidence Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): We and advice that has been provided is required to give the now have a formal time limit of five minutes. public confidence and reassurance on any changes to the rules. 5.26 pm It is in the area of transparency that we need a Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): change from what have seen so far. To take people with I am grateful to be called so early in this important us, and for the morale of the nation, any changes to the debate. rules must be viewed in the context of a published exit I very much welcome the tone that has been adopted strategy. We need clear sight of the proposed areas by both the Minister and the shadow Minister. The where restrictions will be eased, and a robust plan to overriding point was that they accepted that these are protect workers and the public alongside a published extreme and unusual measures that no Government or impact assessment. So far, there has been no impact Parliament would want to see lasting longer than is assessment—again, we understand why that was not strictly necessary. I hope that as Ministers approach the possible in the circumstances, but we do not want that second 21-day review, they will do so always with a view to become the norm, especially for regulations such as to removing restrictions and removing the arbitrary this. We see the impact every day and we know that it is rules and limitations on freedom as quickly as possible. not distributed equally. Where possible, they should also give advance notice. If restrictions are kept in the review on Thursday but may I should like the Minister to provide assurances that be lifted during the course of the following three weeks, there will be adequate personal protective equipment it would be enormously helpful for people, and especially for all those working on the frontline and facing exposure employers, to know in advance. to the virus. I should like to put on the record our thanks for the extraordinary bravery and dedication I hope that Ministers will always see the time limit as demonstrated by NHS staff and other public servants. a long stop and not as a target to be met. In pressing Our thoughts are with those who have lost loved ones to that case, I ask Ministers to reflect carefully on the the virus, and we hear the concerns from many royal experience of the past few weeks and, as the shadow colleges and trade unions in the NHS and social care Minister said, the way in which the British people have sectors about the availability of PPE. That matters responded. In essence, it has worked with that overriding going forward. If, for example, any changes to the objective of ensuring that NHS critical care capacity was lockdown rules involve the wearing of masks in public not overwhelmed, and it has worked precisely because what steps will the Government take to ensure that the British public have been prepared to comply voluntarily. everyone can access them consistently and securely? It has not been about policing, in the main, and it has not been about the threat of enforcement; there has been a Will the Minister also address the question of what common desire to make this work. The public have been resources will be devoted to helping businesses make willing to assist. If anything, in some instances it may physical changes to ensure safe working and to increase be that the public have been a little bit too willing to capacity for the official enforcement of safe working stay at home. I am sure I am not the only Member who practices? The Health and Safety Executive has experienced has heard from employers who are struggling to fulfil significant cuts to its budget over the past decade, and orders because it is difficult to get employees back from demands on it will be higher as questions inevitably furlough. We all know how critical it is that they ought arise about safety. What extra funding will be available to be able to get their workers back so that we make sure to meet that demand? that the jobs remain when the furlough period ends. 447 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 448

[Sir Graham Brady] The restrictions are necessary to save lives, and we should be extremely cautious about lifting them too As the Government begin to set out a staged return soon. It is right that we are led by the science and not by to work over the coming weeks—I hope that will be set politics. However, we have a responsibility to spare out on Thursday—it will become even more important people from hardship and ruin. Here in Cumbria, we that we rely on common sense and voluntary co-operation are deeply concerned about our tourism and hospitality rather than arbitrary rules. The shadow Minister referred industry, which had to shut down completely just as it to the 2-metre distancing rule; it is looking increasingly was gearing up for its high season. likely,from what I read—probably correctly—that Ministers For many in the lakes, the dales and the rest of will look to move to a more nuanced set of guidance, Cumbria, hospitality and tourism are seasonal. They which may focus far more on the importance of hygiene. operate their trading year on something of a “feast and Perhaps there will be the use of disposable gloves if famine” basis. The coronavirus hit right at the end of somebody is travelling on public transport, the regular the famine, and now this year there will be no feast. If cleaning of surfaces, and all the things that may apply we do not get this right, we may inadvertently kill off an in schools as well as in other workplaces. As these changes entire industry that is essential to our wider economy. come forward, it will be far easier to make them work through a conversation with the British people—by It is a humbling honour to speak for and from a part giving people guidance as the Government’s views and of Britain as breathtakingly beautiful as the south the advice they receive evolve, rather than by seeking lakes. Our communities here are as strong as the landscape always to set out very clear,arbitrary rules and regulations. is beautiful. Hundreds of volunteers, many facing severe hardship themselves,are involved in serving their neighbours It is perhaps more important that that approach in their hour of need. We may need to stay a safe should be taken in dealing with our more senior citizens. distance apart, but our communities have never been We have the healthiest, most active elderly generation of closer. I am proud of our people, and I am determined all time, and it would be tragic if the Government that they should be financially stable and secure at the threatened that by trying to extend the so-called lockdown end of all this. for those judged to be most at risk based on age. Why do we not just give them the best information and In normal times, we are one of Europe’s biggest advice and let them limit their risk for themselves? visitor destinations. Last year alone, we received 16 million There is no reason why the constituent that wrote to me visitors. Visitors come from Britain and all over the who is a keen cyclist and turns 70 in November should world, not only for the landscape but because we have a not continue regularly to cycle 30 miles to 60 miles a world-class hospitality and tourism industry, with the day, as he did before the lockdown was imposed. best pubs,restaurants,accommodation, attractions,heritage Finally, let me return briefly to the importance of and history, and an innovative retail sector fully integrated parliamentary scrutiny. It is deeply regrettable that the with the visitor economy. current 21-day period of extension will end on a day In the Lake district alone,80% of the working population when the House is not sitting. The announcements that are employed in tourism or hospitality. The Cumbrian will be made on Thursday would be better made in the visitor economy contributes £3 billion a year, and House. We should hear them here first; it should not be £1.45 billion will already have been lost by next month, the media that get to question Ministers on those with 80% of the workers in the hotel and food industries announcements. I hope that when future periods of currently furloughed. The RSA study indicated that review are considered, the House, and perhaps the Cumbria was the most exposed economy in the country, Government, might bear that in mind. with one in three jobs now at risk. That would be utterly devastating to families throughout our area, so I am 5.31 pm determined to defend them and to find a way to avoid that. Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD) [V]: We are encouraged by the Government’s announcement The Government were right to follow the scientific and of £617 million of support to help those businesses that medical advice to introduce the lockdown. They did so are falling through the gaps, but it remains to be seen to keep people safe.I recognise the sacrifices made by people whether that money will be enough to support all those around the country who are diligently following the rules currently struggling, such as small B&Bs and home-based to protect themselves, their loved ones and the most businesses. I urge Ministers to ensure that no one is left vulnerable. However, doing the right thing comes at a behind and no one left destitute. heavy cost, so I welcome this opportunity to scrutinise When it is safe to do so, the lockdown will ease, but it the legislation and focus on the ways it is affecting our seems likely that hospitality and tourism will be the last country, especially our communities up here in Cumbria. to return to normality under the Government’s plans. I am so grateful to our police, in Cumbria and across We understand that. Our priority is to protect our the UK, for putting our safety above their own. As the people and to save lives. The problem is that if hospitality Government consider easing the lockdown, they must and tourism are phased back in in the autumn, having provide clear guidance so that the police can continue missed out on the feast of the summer months, they will to keep us safe with consistency and confidence. have to try to keep themselves afloat just as the famine We are battling to save lives, but also to save a way of of winter begins. Additional grants and an extension of life. We must not treat lightly our democracy and our the furlough scheme will be needed over the summer, freedom. Let me briefly put on the record my concern but if that is all we do, the Government will simply be about the use of the Public Health (Control of Disease) delaying the failure of businesses, the loss of jobs and Act 1984 to pass the regulations and urge Ministers to the hardship and misery of the families of the south ensure that the three-week review of these measures is lakes. I will not stand for that, and I hope that Ministers open and honest, and that there is full scrutiny of all will not do so either. That is why I urge the Government new legislation. to protect this vital industry by committing to a 12-month 449 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 450 funding settlement for tourism and hospitality so that long, but much of what is contained within them, and they can survive the winter and be ready to lead the within future coronavirus regulations for England, has revival in the spring of 2021. an impact on us in Wales, too.

5.36 pm As the Minister is very aware, the UK Government have, along with the Governments of Wales, Scotland Sir Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): I am reassured and Northern Ireland, closely co-ordinated the response by the fact that the Government will be making a to the public health crisis, in the so-called “four-nation” statement on 7 May reviewing the current lockdown, approach. As we enter the sixth week of lockdown, but I need to make it absolutely clear to the Minister many are calling for clarity on how long it will last and that business is stressed. The lockdown has collapsed on which measures could be relaxed first, especially as demand, and the longer it goes on, the harder it will be we are nearing the end of the current lockdown period. for businesses to claw back that demand. Their future is We all know that for measures to work properly we bleak. I remind the Minister that the economy is people’s must ensure that the people we represent are fully on lives. It is our health service, our schools, our policing, board with the decisions taken in this Parliament and in our pensions, our roads, our mortgages, our workplace the devolved Parliaments. and so many more things. In short, it is us. I urge the Government to do some modelling on the Over the weekend, the Irish Government announced impact that the lockdown will have on the 5.9 million their plans for lifting their lockdown in some detail, privately owned businesses in this country. Of that and many other Governments across the world are 5.9 million, 99.3% employ between one and 49 people, communicating with the same level of transparency and if hundreds of thousands—or a million or more—of and clarity. The Irish Government have set out five those businesses go under, we will unleash a tidal wave phases. Phase 1, commencing on 18 May, will allow of human misery.Unemployment of 12% means 4 million outdoor meetings between people from different people out of work, 4 million people suffering from households. The fifth phase, commencing in August, mental health problems, and many more millions of will allow larger social gatherings and a return to work people underemployed. We need to have a frank, open across all sectors. Schools are not expected to return and honest debate about the ethics of trading lives until the new academic year, and only then in a phased tomorrow to save lives today. The chief medical officer manner. has made it perfectly clear that there are people who are I urge the Minister to hold constructive and fully going to die of cancer who otherwise would not have transparent discussions with the Welsh, Scottish and died of cancer because of this lockdown. It may well be Northern Ireland Governments over the next few weeks, that, after that debate, we decide that this is a terrible so that people across all nations can continue to respect trade we want to make, but we need to have that the measures contained in these regulations and their discussion, as a Parliament and as a country. counterpart regulations in Wales, Scotland and Northern The chief medical officer has said that we may well Ireland. Crucially, and if the four-nation approach is to have to learn to live with covid-19 for years to come. mean anything meaningful, all Governments should It may not just be a battle to beat the first wave or the have an equal voice and veto on those decisions. second wave. There may be many waves to come, year after year, and we need an economy that is resilient and Joint decision making is the way forward in the that can meet that challenge and face it down. So we post-Brexit British state, especially on restrictions on have to get people back to work as safely as possible. movement. There are concerns that the £60 fixed penalty Maybe in a few months’ time, because we want to notice contained in the regulations—this is reduced to protect our public services and the things that we value, £30 if paid within 14 days—does not act as an effective the slogan will be: “Go to work, wash your hands, save deterrent. I urge the Government to look again at the the NHS”. Most people find their purpose, their motivation fines contained in the regulations. Dafydd Llywelyn, and their happiness in the workplace. the police and crime commissioner for my local police May I conclude by saying that many people in my area of Dyfed-Powys, is advocating faster fines of about constituency are doing truly wonderful things? Each £1,000, after officers in Dyfed-Powys issued hundreds day, they get up in the morning and go to work. I know of penalties during the Easter holiday. Further, stiffer some of them are fearful and frightened, but they go to penalties and enforcement actions are also required work to keep this country running as best as they against second home owners who break the lockdown can—they are all heroes. I cannot thank everyone, to visit their holiday homes. I hope there will be action at because it is impossible to do so, but I would like to the Welsh level on that, and I am glad to report to the thank those at the little Co-op in Goffs Oak, where I House that discussions have taken place between the live. Young men and women, and older men and women, Welsh police forces, the Welsh local authorities and are working on the tills, behind their glass screens. I am the Welsh Government on this issue. sure they are concerned about their own welfare, but I agree with the points raised by the hon. Member for there is always a cheery smile and a warm welcome, and Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) about the they give the impression that nothing is too much to impact that the regulations are having on the tourism ask. There are many, many heroes, and a number of sector in particular and on the need for a specific future them are found at the Co-op in Goffs Oak. economic strategy for tourism. Agriculture is another area facing considerable difficulty. I know we are all 5.40 pm crying out for a day at the beach or a weekend away, but Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) the regulations need to make it crystal clear that over (PC) [V]: I am very aware that these regulations apply to the coming bank holiday weekend we should all be England-only, so I will not detain the House for too doing our part by staying home and saving lives. 451 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 452

5.44 pm distance from a place where they cannot exercise to one where they can. People have been accused, for example, Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con) [V]: These rules of not sweating adequately when cycling. When doing are necessary and the Government made the right call yoga, they have been accused of not exercising. These when they put the country into lockdown in order to things are absurd and wrong and worrying for law-abiding protect lives. Nothing that I am about to say should in people. The Government may not in future be able to any way be taken to diminish people’s obligation to close this difficult area by harmonising the guidance obey the law. with the rules, so what I suggest is for them to have a My first point is that we see that these regulations look at the Highway Code, where there is already a were made on 26 March at 1 pm. The Prime Minister precedent for rules given with a “should”, which means announced these rules on 23 March and police officers that they are, in a sense, guidance and not enforceable, quickly set about enforcing them, stopping people on and for things that people must or must not do. Given trains and, in one case, overturning a barbecue. People that we have that precedent, can we please close this very quickly found themselves subject to what seemed gap, so that police officers are not put in the invidious to be enforcement action. On 24 March, the Government position of trying to enforce what are really no more sent a text message, saying that new rules were “in force than Ministers’ opinions of what should be done—in now” and that people “must stay at home”. The problem other words, things that are not in law. is that those rules were not in force at that time; they I want to finish by saying that I am very grateful to were not in force until 26 March. I press on the Minister the Prime Minister for his liberalism. I am extremely the fact that we must not again have a situation where thankful for the exceptionally high-quality policing in the Prime Minister makes an announcement at a press Wycombe, where I have had no complaints. None the conference and police officers start enforcing rules before less, the people of the United Kingdom should not have they are made. We must in future make the law and then to rely on the goodwill of the Prime Minister and the tell the public that it is enforced. I press on him the fact Government or the good sense of police officers in that that must not happen again. order to go about their lawful business. I implore my Secondly, there is a good case that these regulations friends on the Front Bench to ensure that we uphold the are ultra vires, and I recommend that the Government rule of law and the freedoms on which they depend. have a contingency plan in place in case a court case— a judicial review—succeeds in demonstrating that. I will Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. try to sketch out the position very quickly—if I have The Opposition Member who was due to speak next is understood it correctly. This is from an opinion from not now taking part in the debate, so we go to another Blackstone, and I have tweeted the original article if Government Member, Selaine Saxby. people have an interest in the detail. It says: “The regulations purport to authorise conduct which would 5.50 pm otherwise constitute the torts of false imprisonment and trespass to the person”— Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con) [V]: Without that is the physical restraint and forcible removal to doubt, the introduction of these restrictions and the one’s home. It goes on to say that for primary legislation lockdown have saved lives in the UK. I would like to to sanction such tortious conduct there must be take this opportunity to thank everyone who has worked tirelessly for the past few months to help to prevent the “express words or necessary implication” spread of this deadly virus, as well as care for those who to that effect. But section 45G(2)(j) of the Public Health have been struck down with it. (Control of Disease) Act 1984, under which these rules In my North Devon constituency, I can see how are made, does not expressly, or by necessary implication, effective the lockdown has been. Our infection rate is authorise physical confinement. less than 1%. While every loss of life is to be mourned, It is also the case that the Act expressly prohibits the we have lost fewer than 100 lives across the entire Secretary of State from imposing certain of the special county of Devon, and I am just one of nine MPs who restrictions on people; they can only be imposed by a represent it. We achieved that, I believe, by being locked magistrate. It suggests that, under the 1984 Act, the down early before the virus had really taken hold. We Secretary of State was not meant to be able to put on are grateful to Devon and Cornwall police for their people restrictions that would otherwise be tortious—false diligence in deterring tourists at this time. I have been so imprisonment or physical restraint, for example. Therefore, impressed by the outstanding community spirit, which we may be in a position where these draconian rules—these has enabled armies of volunteers to deliver food and necessary rules—are not well founded in law, and I medicines to self-isolating vulnerable and elderly members would like to know today the Government’s position on of the community. I would also like to thank our that. I would like to be assured that, if the lockdown tourism businesses, who rapidly closed their doors, and needs to continue, the Government will have a contingency to the visitors who took the decision not to travel. plan in place to ensure that it is well founded in law. Another reason why the restrictions have been so successful The third point was very well made by the shadow is our sparse population and wide-open spaces. Indeed, Minister, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and I look longingly at the Atlantic ocean from my kitchen Neston (Justin Madders). He called for harmony between and yearn for the RNLI to reopen the water and allow the guidance and the law. There have been very severe, us back in the sea to self-isolate there. absurd problems arising because the police have sought As we look towards a gradual easing of the restrictions, to enforce rules that were not actually in law. For it is important that we keep the infection rate in North example, the law in England does not specify that Devon as low as it has been. As a mathematician, I hope people may not drive to exercise. I know of people who that alongside the excellent scientific advice, which has have stayed at home because they need to drive a short guided decisions throughout this pandemic, there is 453 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 454 robust mathematical modelling that determines what I welcome the clarifications this statutory instrument does happen to an area like North Devon, with a low makes, but there are reassurances and clarifications we infection rate but with a population that increases each have yet to receive from the Government on loopholes summer due to tourism. What would happen if we in these regulations, because not everyone is receiving allowed the population to swell by its normal five-to-tenfold, fair and safe treatment under these regulations and as some parts of my constituency do? How does R behave there is one shocking example that I want to raise: the then? Do we have enough open space in North Devon plight of call centre staff. to accommodate anything like our normal seasonal New research from Strathclyde university shows that influx? And if the answer is yes, I hope the data will be thousands of call centre staff are still being asked to shared to give residents the confidence they need to work in offices where social distancing is not practised. leave their homes and welcome visitors back, and that Hot-desking continues and colleagues have fallen ill our tourism industry can start to reopen without from covid-19, with some being threatened that unless endangering the health of residents. they go to work, they will lose their jobs. They have There are concerns that all the sacrifices made in tried to whistleblow and been told there is nothing April may be undermined if we release lockdown measures anyone can do, and there is nothing in these regulations too quickly, or if social distancing, combined with an that enforces social distancing in workplaces. That allows influx of tourists, is not enough. North Devon does not employers to exploit their employees, so they do not just have some of the best beaches in the UK, part of have to change how they work, and it is deeply worrying. stunning Exmoor and its fabulous zoo, we also have the The Government classified call centre staff as key smallest hospital on the UK mainland, and our Nightingale workers, but this is being applied to staff who have Hospital is not yet built and will be 60 miles away. hitherto not provided essential services at all. Indeed, I dearly want to return to being the one-woman many who have, anonymously in some cases, given data tourist board for North Devon, but fear that the time to this study have said that they see no reason why they for that might not be now. If there is a gradual easing of are essential. This is a loophole that the Government restrictions, I very much hope that the police will have need to rectify in future regulations. the powers and clarity in their guidance to be able to I can see why the blanket keyworker definition was respond to the unique challenges of the magnetic nature used at first, but surely now is the time to tighten this. of the North Devon coastline, where people think nothing So can the Government reassure us in this debate that of driving many hours to catch a wave. these regulations will be enforced, and clarified where The restrictions are concerned with our health, but I needed to protect call centre staff, and indeed other trust that the health of my tourism businesses will be staff, from exploitation? considered if we are unable to welcome back our normal I want to propose another solution: to give the automatic volume of visitors this summer. Seasonal businesses right to work from home, as is being considered by cannot survive three consecutive winters, which is why legislators in Germany. This of course builds on Liberal regular reviews of our restrictions are of the upmost Democrat changes, that we led in coalition, to allow importance. I recognise and warmly welcome the most employees to ask for flexible working. However, as incredible support the Government have offered to our many watching at home might know, not many employers businesses, and thank the Treasury for everything they actually allowed that to happen; some did, but many have done—more than we could have possibly imagined. said no. The crisis has, I hope, shown for many that this However, the seasonal tourism industry may suffer more way of working can work well. However, those who are than most despite that generosity. I hope that the hiding behind the loopholes in this legislation remain Government take that into consideration in their upcoming resistant. If there was an automatic right to work from reviews over the next weeks and months. home unless there was a good reason why not—which is The mental health of the nation has been put under the opposite of how it is now—we could create a level strain throughout this pandemic. I hope that playing field for all. Are the Government considering mathematicians are also modelling and advising those such an approach at all? taking the decisions about the relative risks to the When our civil liberties are being curtailed, we also mental health of business owners watching years of need to make sure that everyone is treated equally under their lives unravel in front of them, or of leaving people the law, and this includes enforcement of the lockdown. working in their kitchens for weeks or months more The Government must work actively to ensure that the alone, versus the physical risks that this deadly virus powers given to the police in these regulations are not presents, particularly in a region where the level of used to disproportionately target BAME people, as infection is currently so low. stop-and-search powers are. We must be vigilant against Thank you to everyone who has stayed at home, wrongful convictions, as was highlighted in the case of protected the NHS and saved lives. As we gradually 18-year-old Lewis Brown in Oxford. He was wrongfully ease the restrictions. I hope that there will be a similar prosecuted recently under, strangely, Welsh powers in strength of message to give people the confidence to the Coronavirus Act 2020. While the CPS has announced leave their homes and welcome visitors back when the that every single case under the Act involving a child time is right, and that when the mathematics and science will be reviewed, we need reassurance from the Government allows I will again revert to being the one-woman that they are working with the police to prevent what tourist board in North Devon. happened to Lewis—which would be distressing to anyone, but especially someone of that age—from happening 5.55 pm again. Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD) [V]: I, of course, recognise that we are in uncharted We are in a crisis, and parliamentary scrutiny is, as ever, territory, but where regulations are being exploited by the most important thing we can provide as a Parliament. some businesses, putting the lives of workers in danger, 455 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 456

[Layla Moran] “Normal” is not being afraid. “Normal” is not being suspicious of every stranger. “Normal” is not dobbing changes must be made. Where exceptional powers have in our neighbours. “Normal” is working when we can, been granted, they must not be allowed to become the not furloughing. new normal, and I hope the Minister will be able to I genuinely believe that we need to get back to normal reassure me and other Members that our concerns and when restrictions are eased. We need to communicate the problems we have highlighted will be listened to and that very clearly—much more clearly than has been acted upon. done on occasion with some of the confusion about the regulations and their implementation. Our economy 5.59 pm and our future depend on it. Mr Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con) [V]: The precedent that health trumps liberty must not be the conclusion 6.5 pm from this period. I am determined about that, because it Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) [V]: Madam Deputy is fundamental to our very souls as the British people. Speaker, I am grateful to you for calling me on my first We are not a people who take well to surveillance, and it occasion of trying this virtual system. is a little ironic that the country that has probably been I would like to take this opportunity to put on record surveilling its population more than any other appears my thanks to the Minister and his team for the extraordinary to have been the source of this virus. The point is that efforts they have displayed during this crisis in galvanising widespread surveillance really is not acceptable in Britain, both the health service and the entirety of Government so I want to talk a little about the app being proposed as to get behind combating this disease. This is no easy part of the next phase, which may be related to the task, and I think they have done it admirably, if I may coming regulations that replace those we are looking at say so. I would also like to pay a brief tribute to today. everybody working in the NHS, in the care sector and in Obviously track and trace and testing are essential the public services generally—local authorities, emergency parts of getting the population confident again that services—right across the country and particularly in they can go about their business in a normal fashion. Shropshire in keeping a grip. As some other speakers I support those things, and they are an incredibly important have said, we are some way behind the rest of the part of that. The opportunities that those things present country, being a rural shire county, but that does not to people must be taken up, but to do that they must be mean to say that the disease is not now present and, voluntary, decentralised and simple, because they have regrettably, killing people. to be widely taken up to be effective as a process for On the debate today, it is very clear that we are giving people confidence that they do not have the virus making regulations that are unprecedented in scope in and for spreading that confidence throughout society, taking away people’s liberty. It is therefore absolutely so that people can go about their business normally. right that Parliament, which regards itself as the beacon I am very concerned that it appears that that is not how of democracy around the world, is here to scrutinise, to the intended app has been designed. hold Ministers to account and to hold the Government The app is centralised, and it is worth understanding to account. I share the comments made by earlier that Germany has now abandoned its plan to use an speakers that it is absolutely right that we have the app that would centralise the information that it collected ability to review these measures every 21 days, and I about where people had been and what their health encourage Ministers to acknowledge—perhaps the Minister conditions were. I understand that the NHS has itself can do so in his winding up—that it is the Government’s assessed today that the proposed app may not provide intent to speak to the measures as they are either enough security, performance or clinical safety for it to repeated or relaxed over the coming weeks. be used here. I would like to hear from the Minister I would like to make three quick points in this debate. whether those reports, for example on the UK Defence First, and directly related to the regulations before us, Journal today, are indeed accurate. some of the most heartrending cases I have heard of The decentralised model is how the app should be during the weeks of lockdown have been the difficulties implemented by design, so that it is not possible for a for family members of those who are patients in intensive security breach to be as serious. It is an essential principle care units in hospitals, where they quite properly cannot of our democracy and our freedom that we are not be visited because they are on incubator ventilators. tracked by the state, and I think that the centralisation However, when that treatment does not succeed and, of the data is entirely wrong. I would dump the centralised regrettably, there is a tragedy and the death of a patient, design and I would dump it now, because I do not think it has been difficult for family members to be able to people will take it up in the proportions required for it come to terms with their own grief because they are to be effective if it is a centralised design. initially not able to attend either burials or cremations. We need to remember what the point is of these big I warmly welcome, first, the announcement by the intrusions. I completely agree that the lockdown was Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local necessary, as I have said before, but these intrusions into Government that close family members should be able normal life and our normal economic opportunities are to attend burials or cremations, but also that this is really, really massive. They were done in order that we being confirmed in these regulations. should not overwhelm the NHS—clearly that was the I would just like to add my support for care, when the right thing to do—to give us time to build its capacity Government look at relaxing the regulations, and for and to introduce capacity for testing. The whole idea not imposing age-related restrictions on individuals. behind that was so that we could get back to normal. As we have seen all too vividly, it is possible to reach We must never lose sight through this process of what 100 and to walk—with assistance, but to walk—and normal means. “Normal” is not being tracked centrally. take exercise in the way that Captain, now Colonel, 457 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 458

Tom did so magnificently and galvanised the nation. to return to their job. If safe working can be arranged We cannot introduce specific restrictions for those aged for that person, they should have every right to do it, over an arbitrary limit—70-year-olds have been mentioned even if they belong to the majority who the Government —without imposing very great inequality, in my view, assume have not had the virus. on healthy individuals, so please do not do that. I also want to look at the Government’s method of Secondly, it is very clear from the Government’s five making the decisions on the basis of statistical and markers for relaxing restrictions that testing is one of scientific advice. We all see the graphs that are presented the key platforms. I take my hat off to the Government every day by the scientific advisers, and some of the again for the extraordinary effort in galvanising academia, numbers used to address whether or not we can return the scientific research laboratories, the NHS laboratories, to work worry me considerably. The crucial figure, we industry and even the military in achieving the very are told by the Prime Minister and others,is the transmission demanding testing target set by the Secretary of State rate, which they call R. We have all learned that if that for April. It is a tremendous achievement. However, figure is well below 1, we can relax much more because these tests have all been swab tests—the antigen test—which it means that the virus is waning and is not being passed tell whether an individual currently has the disease, so on to enough people by each person who gets it, which such a test is of limited use for as long as that individual means that it will wane further and we can think about is presenting symptoms. It does not help in identifying returning to normal. We are also told that if it is over 1, whether they have had the virus. Therefore, the antibody we still have a problem because it is growing in scope. test is vital in order to allow us to get back to normal. The problem is that in recent discussions we have been It would be helpful if the Minister could give an indication given a range of values—from 0.5 to 1—of what R might to the House of what prospects we as a nation have of be. If we look at how they calculate it, we see that it is an moving towards an antibody test that is effective. estimate, not a precise number. I find it surprising that Finally— over the past six weeks we have not been reproducing, through testing, a representative sample of the population. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. Surely the way to get a more accurate transmission rate I trust that the right hon. Gentleman is going to conclude is to see over time how the total number of cases, as very soon, because his five minutes are up. represented by a sample of the population, is trending. Philip Dunne: I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am pleased to read in a newspaper that we are now doing I would just like to echo the comment made by my hon. a series of random tests over time. Will they please Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr Fysh) that the speed those up? That is not as good as having six weeks contact tracing and tracking app needs to be introduced of back data, which is a pity. I trust that Ministers will on a voluntary basis, and the Government should take cross-examine scientists carefully to see what proxies great care in explaining to the public why it is such an they have for a proper set of random tests over time, important tool in fighting this disease. because if the figures are to be an important part of the decision, we need to make sure they are as accurate as Madam Deputy Speaker: Once again, the Opposition possible. Member who was next on the list is not now going to We then have the so-called comparable death rates in participate in the debate, so I go to another Government different countries. The death rate is important, because Member, Sir John Redwood. clearly the national death rate is part of the decision-making process. Again, it is very disturbing that the basis on 6.10 pm which deaths are registered as being with or related to John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con) [V]: These measures covid-19 has changed over the series, and of course the are doing great damage to the livelihoods and incomes series has been greatly changed by moving from just of many of my constituents and people around the hospital deaths to a wider range of deaths, including country, and they are also damaging to our freedoms those in care homes. Will Ministers please ensure that and liberties, so I urge the Government to find safe when they make decisions based on death rates, they ways to get more people back to work as quickly as clean up the figures and understand that over the six or possible. It is great news that the NHS has much enhanced seven-week period of the intense duration of this virus, capacity. It has tackled the covid-19 waves so well so far we need comparable and accurate figures? That is what and has plenty of capacity, so we must now think about they should concentrate on and try to construct. how we get many more people back to work so that they We then have the figures for hospital admissions, which can restore their livelihoods. seem to be the closest that we have to reliable figures. It is all too easy for us Members of Parliament, with They look as if they are showing an extremely good a guaranteed high salary paid into our bank accounts story indeed, so I trust that Ministers will focus considerably every month, whether the economy does well or badly, on them. They argue that now is the time to let more to be a little too dismissive of the struggles faced by people get back to work in as safe a way as possible. people who may be furloughed but are not getting their Industry and commerce are very willing to amend the tips, bonuses or commissions. Some may already have way in which they operate so that they can get some lost their job, while many are living in fear that the revenue and start serving their customers again. If we company they work for will run out of cash and not be do not do this, the whole thing will be completely able to trade. unaffordable and the pressures will mount economically, My first piece of advice to the Government is to not which will not be good news for our health policy either. make a person’s return to work conditional on them having had the virus. The right to work cannot become 6.15 pm a macabre lottery whereby people have to prove that Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP) [V]: It is lovely to they have had a certain illness before they have the right see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker. 459 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 460

[Jim Shannon] I know that Ministers have spoken out—on behalf of prisoners of conscience, and an example of that would As the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr be the Uighur Muslims in China. (Jonathan Edwards) said, the legislation is devolved; Similarly, at home, asylum seekers who have been Wales made that decision, and in Northern Ireland our held in UK detention centres are at extreme risk during now functioning and working Assembly was granted the pandemic because of the limited opportunities for the right to establish how the legislation, such as the social distancing, as well as other vulnerabilities. Despite Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) Regulations not being criminals, these people, many of whom have (Northern Ireland) 2020, and the amendments to it had their human rights breached in other countries, would come about. We were given the ability to determine face some of the same threats as prison populations and how we would fulfil our obligations in the matter; I wish are extremely vulnerable. Our UK Government should we were afforded the same right and ability to determine at the very least increase efforts to support them during other essential matters such as the introduction of abortion, these trying times. Does the Minister agree that that is but that is a debate for another day. what we are doing? The vast majority understand the reason why the To conclude, I would like to know how the points I Government have taken steps to introduce lockdown, have raised are met by this legislation and ensure that and the vast majority agree with those steps. People covid powers designed to help us deal with this disease understand that extraordinary times call for extraordinary are not being used in a year’s time to deal with those we measures that we would never usually undertake. I am do not entirely agree with or, indeed, disagree with. It is an example of that; I never thought that I would be part a fine line, and I want to ensure that the Minister and of a virtual Parliament. However, what concerns some the Government are on the right side of it. people is how we ensure that we do not overstep what is necessary and enter the realms of what is convenient. I 6.20 pm would appreciate understanding how the Minister believes we have ensured that we do not have a system that can Robert Courts (Witney) (Con) [V]: Unprecedented be abused. I have every faith in the Minister and look times call for unprecedented measures, and that is the forward to his response. case here. The entry of coronavirus on the scene and the terrifying wave of deaths it unleashed across the world I have been contacted by constituents who are concerned led to a very real fear that our NHS would be overwhelmed about the impact on their mental health of lockdown and that we might see here some of the horrifying and the closure of their usual walking spots. Every right scenes we have seen in Italy. Therefore, the public rightly hon. and hon. Member realises that mental health is a demanded action—action to keep them safe and to save massive issue that strikes at many, many doors. I received their jobs. The Government have responded, quite rightly, one message from a nurse who needs that space to walk in huge measure, unveiling a package of support of all and think, which she always does by the sea; she, more types that has addressed almost every area of national than anyone else, knows how to distance, yet she has life. Thanks to that massive effort to shield the NHS, been nothing less than distressed. That has to be weighed we have avoided that uncontrollable, catastrophic against the fact that groups of people are meeting when epidemic, where the reasonable worst-case scenario was they should not be, which is why councils have closed 500,000 deaths. access where possible. I believe that there is a very tight balance, and I would like assurances about how we Yet, it remains the case that what has had to be done believe that it has been found. is quite extraordinary in two respects: we have seen an extraordinary suspension of normal personal liberties Last week, at the daily coronavirus news conference, and extraordinary measures by means of which the the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care said state is intervening in the economy. I want to make the that Northern Ireland might make changes ahead of case today that every Member of this House should be the UK mainland. Some of those changes have been drawing attention over and over again to how truly discussed; the responsible Minister is looking at opening extraordinary these measures are. the recycling centres, which in some cases has already It says something for the respect in which the country’s happened, but he is also looking—although no decision institutions are held that there has been such wide has yet been made—at reopening garden centres and acceptance. The police are trusted, and the bobby is churches and allowing angling, so that people can fish seen as our friend. There is not the suspicion here that on riverbanks and in lakes while self-distancing. Science we often see in other countries—even democratic ones. and expert advice must be crucial. That speaks of a country whose structures are mature, This is not just a UK issue; it is global, and we cannot stable and secure, but I confess that I am, in some ways, ignore what is happening elsewhere. According to the slightly disturbed by the extent to which these restrictions United States Commission on International Religious have been accepted. Overwhelmingly, of course, that is Freedom, Governments around the world have been down to a desire to do our bit—to be seen to be in every using the covid-19 crisis as an excuse to use police and way the equal of our grandparents as we face a very other arms of the state to crack down on human rights different challenge—and some of it, of course, is fear. such as freedom of expression and freedom of religion However,that does not mean that we should be complacent, or belief. I believe that the UK Government must and that complacency would be shown by starting to ensure that human rights are given full consideration accept these restrictions as normal, rather than stressing when policing responses to covid-19 are considered. over and over again how truly exceptional they are. There is a risk to prison populations, in the UK and I will be absolutely clear: I have total faith in the globally, of contracting covid-19 because of overcrowding Government’s good intentions. They have done what and limited opportunities for social distancing. I therefore they had to do to save lives and jobs, and I support believe that the UK Government should speak out—indeed, them wholeheartedly, but it is not this Government I am 461 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 462 concerned about. What I want us to do is to guard 6.26 pm against a change in the national mood music and to prevent a ratchet effect, such that we become used to Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con) [V]: It is a restrictions we never would have tolerated in normal great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for times, not least because there will always be some who Witney (Robert Courts) and relatively close geographic argue we should do more. neighbour, because what I want to stay chimes with the sentiments that he has just set out. I fully support the We can see how the acceptance of restrictions has an regulations in front of the House,but it is worth emphasising effect long after their intended period in the economic what an enormous restriction on our liberty they are—the sphere. When I was my son’s age—he is three now— greatest restriction on our liberty that there has been in Margaret Thatcher was beginning the huge task of British history. That restriction is there for a very good dismantling the vast socialist edifice that had dominated reason, but in a democratic country such as ours, where the UK since the war. What is not always appreciated is we have to have consent, it is the Government’s task that that edifice was not just the result of Labour party each time they bring forward such regulations to remake manifestos from 1945 onwards, but was essentially the the case as to why we are doing it. It is also worth saying basis of a command economy set up during the second that with each of the review periods, it is not for others world war. In essence, that wartime command economy to justify the regulations going away; the Government was not dismantled until the 1980s, despite there being must rejustify why they have to remain in place so we do Conservative Governments during that time. There was not consider that they become the new norm. a Butskellite consensus that did not challenge the basic premise that the state owned and controlled the essential In that spirit, and I hope that the Minister will parts of the economy. Why were Conservative MP so address this when he winds up, I request that before any complicit? There were many reasons for that, but one changes to these regulations come into force —indeed, was that the level of state control had become something there has already been one set of amendments—any people were comfortable with—something they were amended regulations are brought forward and debated used to—and they failed to question it. That state and decided on by the House. I understand why that did control had been the new norm. not take place when the regulations were first brought in, but any subsequent amendments should be debated We are now in a world in which huge amounts of by the House. I was pleased that the Opposition have workers’ wages are being paid by the state, and I wholly taken that view. I would prefer the process to remain support the action taken and the reason for it. It was consensual, but it will only if the Government behave in right to protect the economy in the short term to enable that way. Scrutiny is important because, as we have it to bounce back in the medium to long term, but that already seen with the current regulations, there has been does not mean that we ought to tire of pointing out how confusion and debate about the guidance that the unusual these measures are and that we have no intention Government set out and the meaning of the regulations— of allowing them to continue for the long term. This that is, the law and what has therefore been interpreted applies to these regulations as much as to the economic by the police. effects. If not, we will see that those on the left who want to see a bigger state anyway will find an excuse to The Prime Minister confirmed last week, when he say, “Well, that wasn’t so bad, was it?”, so the ratchet addressed the nation on his return to Downing Street, cranks up another notch. We will see arguments for that he was in favour of the greatest transparency as we things such as universal basic incomes and all the failed debate these measures. I therefore say to the Minister ideology of the state finding a specious pretext for an that it was disappointing that the seven documents that unwelcome return. What we Government Members have been created to set out safe ways of working—the have to do is to tirelessly make the case that economic guidance for employers—have reached the public domain, liberalism put us in a good place to meet this crisis, and whether that was through leaks or briefing. I think that it is to economic liberalism that we must return. That those documents should have been published by the starts by pointing out how unusual and, in the long Government. They could have been published in draft term, undesirable the current restrictions are. form for discussion. That would have been a better way of conducting the debate than to have those documents The police have been given powers that are in some reach the public in the way that they have. If we want to ways greater than the Emergency Powers (Defence) take the public with us, the more open and transparent Act 1939—a raft of powers that they are now trying to we are about the trade-offs and the difficult decisions make sense of and apply in a practical way.As constituency that we have to take, the better. MPs, we have all been inundated over the last few weeks with requests by the public to help them to understand The final point that I want to make is about this what they are and are not allowed to do. House. When I spoke in the House last week, I said that we should pay great tribute to Mr Speaker, the House Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. staff and those who have supported the ability to get the I trust that the hon. Gentleman is concluding as his five House up and running in this virtual way. It is clearly minutes are up. better to have the House back in virtual form than not at all, but we do lose something. Ministers are not under the same pressure or same level of scrutiny that Robert Courts: I am indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. they are when we are in the Chamber—[Interruption.] I am very grateful for the efforts that the police have I can see that the Minister is laughing in his seat. The made in very difficult circumstances. I simply ask that sooner that we can work out ways to enable the House all Members of the House keep vigilant at all times as to function with more of us physically present, albeit in to the effect of the regulations that we are currently a more socially distant way, the better. I urge the supporting. Government to consider ways in which we can do that. 463 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 464

[Mr Mark Harper] might be sensible—although I do, of course, hear and understand the concerns of my colleagues in national The Prime Minister has set a decision point this parks and tourist hotspots. week: for the regulations that we are debating today to The biggest national misunderstanding, judging by be considered, and for the Government to take decisions my inbox, is over subsection (2)(f) of regulation 6. about whether they wish to continue with them in force People can travel to work if the travel is essential; it is or to make changes. Either decision—keeping them in not about whether we deem the work itself to be essential. force unchanged, or making changes—is very significant, We are not trying to shut the entire private economy. and has an impact on everyone in the country and on Housebuilders, factories and distribution centres can businesses around the country.I think that that statement and should operate, although, of course, they should all should be made in Parliament so that Members of practise social distancing and good hygiene. If the scientific Parliament can ask questions, not our own behalf, but advice had been that we needed to close those businesses on behalf of all those whom we represent. I hope that too, doubtless the Government would have followed it, the Government will bear that in mind when they are but the evidence shows that the measures we have taken making those decisions. have reduced the famous R0—the reproduction ratio—to below one. 6.31 pm Talking about science brings me to my second, more Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con) [V]: It is a philosophical point. Politics and Government are about pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for trade-offs. That is always true because resources are not Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). It is right that these unlimited, but a crisis like this highlights it more starkly regulations have been debated today on the Floor of the than ever. Science and its epidemiological models do House of Commons—and, indeed, on my own living not, by design, always capture all elements of those room floor. trade-offs. They can show us specific consequences of Like many other Members,I praise the general adherence specific measures,but they cannot consider every dimension by the population to these difficult and restrictive measures. of the choices politicians must make. I know that they have caused pain, heartache and There is the obvious trade-off between health and the financial hardship for many, but I recognise from the economy,which is represented most clearly by the businesses evidence that I have heard on the Science and Technology that we have asked to close, though of course, in the Committee that they are working both here and abroad, long run, we can have a strong NHS and good public and that that compliance has been higher than was health only with a strong economy. originally estimated for the models—although, of course, As Professor Whitty said in his evidence to the Science such estimates were necessarily cautious, because nothing and Technology Committee, there is also a more direct like this has been necessary for over a century. trade-off between health and health: the direct health The only true route out of our present predicament is implications of coronavirus versus the damage to people’s a vaccine. On that note, I was greatly encouraged by my mental health, the tragic increase in domestic violence visit to Cobra Biologics in my constituency last week. It and the risk of cancers and other conditions going is part of the consortium that will produce the Oxford undetected as people put off visiting the doctor, even vaccine that is currently in clinical trials. I ask the virtually. I urge anyone with such concerns to seek the Government to ensure that we put all the finance necessary appropriate professional support. for future production in place as soon as possible, Finally, there is the trade-off between health and putting some investment at risk—making a bet, if you liberty. As I have made clear, I support the regulations like—on the basis that the potential prize is so valuable. as a proportionate, time-limited response to a generational In the meantime, I support these regulations as a challenge, but the purpose of life is not simply the proportionate and time-limited response. As we all recall, extension and preservation of life itself, though, of their stated purpose was to prevent the NHS from being course, that is a prerequisite. Life is for living, for overwhelmed, and the evidence is that we have succeeded, adventures and journeys, for taking chances, for learning not least in the mercifully light use of the Nightingale lessons, for falling in love, for being entertained and for hospitals. I do, however,have some concerns about aspects being with friends and family.In considering the ongoing of the implementation of the regulations, and about the nature of the regulations and the restrictions, any future possibility of their extension over a prolonged period. calculus needs to recognise properly all the costs of lockdown: health, economic and social. I call on the These regulations are the law—no more and no less—and Government to consider that point carefully as they we police by consent in this country, so it is of concern review the current situation and lead the nation through to me, as it has been to other Members, that some police these difficult days. forces, doubtless with the best of intentions, have read into them words that are not there. I stress that my criticism is emphatically not aimed at Staffordshire police, 6.36 pm whose response, in my experience, has been balanced Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con) [V]: and proportionate. Under subsection (2)(a) of regulation 6, I am pleased to follow so many of my colleagues on the people can buy luxuries such as Easter eggs, a bottle of Government Benches in this important debate.I completely wine or even custard tarts, if they are out of the house agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe to obtain basic necessities such as food. We should not (Mr Baker) who emphasised the vital role of Parliament be in the business of deciding which types of food are in overseeing the extraordinary measures that are being necessary. Under subsection (2)(b)—my hon. Friend taken. Only we in Parliament can supply legal and the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) made this point democratic legitimacy to the difficult decisions that earlier—people can travel to take exercise, including by need to be made in this crisis. In that context, I regret car, if reasonable. Indeed, in many urban areas that several aspects of today’s debate. 465 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 466

First, I regret the fact that we are discussing only In the course of the debate Members have raised a now, on 4 May, regulations to which our citizens have number of important points, to which I will endeavour been subject since 26 March. I am afraid that, by some to respond as fully as I can in the time allowed to me. distance, the House could not be said to be debating First, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston them at the first possible opportunity. Secondly, I regret (Justin Madders) raised a number of key points. He the fact that matters of such importance were not dealt talked about the need for clarity around an exit strategy with by primary legislation, given that the House was and how it develops and the importance of taking the able to pass the Coronavirus Bill when it met before the British people into our confidence, because in this country Easter recess on 23 March. Thirdly, even today, only we govern and police by consent, and therefore it is two hours have been given over to debating what the important that it is a shared endeavour, where we take Minister acknowledged to be extraordinary measures the British people with us. of a kind never seen before in peacetime. I note that, for whatever reason, fewer than 3% of Members are As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the Prime participating in a debate on a subject of such magnitude, Minister said last Thursday that the Government will which may have consequences for the liberty of the set out a comprehensive plan this week, which will individual for generations to come. explain how we will get our economy moving while continuing to suppress the disease, seeking to get life It was utterly foreseeable to anyone who has experienced back to normal for as many people as we can as quickly an event much larger than the average parish fête that and, importantly—this goes to a point made by my over-zealous police officers and public officials would hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West jump into the ambiguous space between legislation and (Sir Graham Brady)—as fairly across our society as we guidance. I exclude from my remarks, and indeed would can, while continuing to protect the NHS. like to praise Sussex police under the leadership of Police and Crime Commissioner Bourne and Chief Constable The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston was Giles York for avoiding many of the excesses we have right: that needs to involve a conversation and a dialogue. seen elsewhere. However, there is a type of personality As he alluded to, that dialogue on where things may go who, if given a high-vis jacket, a uniform or an official in the future has already begun, which is a positive step title, relishes dishing out prohibitions to their fellow forward. I am grateful for his typically reasonable and citizens. Such a minority—we must be clear that that is measured tone, and I want to put on record once again what they are—are ignorant of and usually untroubled by my gratitude to him and to the shadow Secretary of the limits of the law unless they are specifically drilled into State, the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan them in a way that time has not allowed to happen here. Ashworth), my constituency neighbour. He, too, has I would like to propose to the Minister what I believe adopted a constructive and reasonable tone throughout to be a reasonable notion. When the police or public this, and I am grateful to them and Members across the authorities purport to issue guidance or spend taxpayers’ House for the tone they have adopted. money on paid-for advertising, it should contain footnotes I turn to other points that have been raised. If I miss indicating the clear basis in law for that guidance. It was anything, the shadow Minister is welcome to come back Hayek who wrote: to me privately, and I am happy to write to him to fill in “Nothing distinguishes more clearly conditions in a free country any gaps in my answers. My hon. Friend the Member from those in a country under arbitrary government than the observance in the former of the great principles known as the for Altrincham and Sale West mentioned the importance Rule of Law.” of scrutiny, as did many Members, and that is absolutely right. It is important that we remember that these In the UK, the rule of law was central to the great regulations are born out of necessity, but they are charter of freedoms, described by Lord Denning as exceptional and should only be kept as long as the “the greatest constitutional document of all times”— exceptional circumstances necessitate. He, too, mentioned I agree. the importance of a route map and giving the UK a Members may recall that the Earl of Arundel was route out of the current restrictions as quickly as we can one of the 25 barons tasked to hold the King to account, when we can do so safely; he is right. Sadly, the necessity however uncomfortable a position that may have been. of the time means that we are not there yet, but it is Today, as the Member of Parliament for Arundel and important that that dialogue with the British people South Downs, I am pleased to support the Government continues and is open, including in this House. and believe that they have done an exceptional job in difficult circumstances, but it is hard to argue that a I am grateful to the hon. Member for Westmorland touch more parliamentary scrutiny would not have and Lonsdale and my hon. Friend the Member for exposed, and therefore narrowed sooner,the gaps between North Devon (Selaine Saxby) for the tone of their legislation and guidance. remarks and their support for the necessity of what we are doing. They highlighted the impact—the hon. Gentleman in respect of the south lakes area and my hon. 6.40 pm Friend in respect of rural north Devon—of these necessary Edward Argar: Today we have had in this Chamber a regulations on the hospitality and tourism industries very important debate on regulations that, while absolutely that play such a huge part in their local communities necessary to help beat covid-19, are having a profound effect and economy. That is why it is absolutely right that my on people’s lives and businesses. Despite that necessity, right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is it is equally necessary that we uphold the hard-won looking carefully at the matter and has put together a rights we have in this country: the rule of law and the package designed to do everything that he can to support right and duty of this House to scrutinise and question industry and businesses in this country. Nevertheless, I the Government—something that Members have done hear what they say, and I know that my right hon. with determination and, indeed, enthusiasm today. Friend the Chancellor will have heard it as well. 467 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 Public Health 468

[Edward Argar] that they cannot do from home, to ensure that their workers are supported and protected and that appropriate My hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles social-distancing measures are in place to protect workers Walker) was the Chair of the first Select Committee who are fulfilling important roles to help everyone else that I served on after I became a Member of this House in our society. in 2015, and back then he emphasised to me that the My hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr Fysh) key Committee to get on was the Procedure Committee, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham because by learning how this place works a person will (John Redwood) both highlighted the importance of not go too badly wrong. I do not know whether it has reassuring the British public and this House about the yet been long enough for me to have proven or disproven need for openness and for scrutiny. They highlighted that, but he is right, and he is a doughty champion of the fact that we must always treat liberty as a precious the rights of this House and the importance of scrutiny thing, protect it, and ensure that we do not see it whittled and due process. He is also right to emphasise that just away: I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil as we must ensure that we protect the NHS and protect that there is no intention to do any such thing. people’s health, we must also recognise the need to My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham support and protect our economy, because it is indeed a also touched on the need to be open about the science. vibrant economy that pays for the NHS that we all rely He spoke with a degree of erudition and knowledge on. My hon. Friend highlighted the need for openness, that I will not seek to emulate, but he is right to say that and his contribution was typically decent and insightful. we must interrogate the science carefully when making The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr the decisions on where to go in future with these regulations. (Jonathan Edwards) was right to emphasise the importance Turning to the hon. Member for Strangford of the four nations working together and taking a (Jim Shannon), we are, as ever, very grateful for his co-ordinated approach. I again re-emphasise my gratitude support and for his contribution to this debate. He is and the Government’s gratitude to the devolved always a strong voice for his constituents. Among a Administrations for the spirit of genuine partnership in number of points that he made, he was quite right to which we have all been working in recent weeks. The highlight the importance of doing what we can to hon. Gentleman talked about whether the fixed-penalty ensure that people’s mental health is supported and notice amount was an adequate deterrent; it is arguable protected at what is a very difficult time for many, many that the far more effective penalty is, rather than the people. He also alluded to human rights implications. penalty imposed, the sense of common national endeavour I reassure him that the Government are clear that these in this country and everyone wishing to do the right measures are fully compliant with the Human Rights thing because it is the right thing to do. Act 1998. My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) My right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow is not only an hon. Friend but a friend, and a good and (Philip Dunne) and a number of other colleagues, including decent man. He has long been a champion, inside my hon. Friend the Member for Witney, my right hon. and outside the House, of due process, the rule of law Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) and the need, despite the safeguards in this country, and my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme always to be vigilant and protect the hard-won freedoms (Aaron Bell), made the point, as have other hon. Members, that we enjoy. Such voices as his are absolutely vital to that these regulations, while necessary, should be in the health of a vibrant democracy such as ours. He was force only for as long as they are absolutely necessary, right to emphasise the difference between guidance and highlighting not only the health impact but the broader law. As I said in my opening remarks, what is in the impacts on society and on the economy. I reassure them regulations is the law; guidance may be helpful but it is that we are absolutely clear about that. These measures not the law. My hon. Friend drew on the highway code are a necessity at the moment, but the Government have to make a point about the difference between “must” always been clear that they will be retained only for so and “should” in the way we communicate these things. long as they are a necessity to tackle this disease. That is a good and valid point that my hon. Friend the My right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow was Member for Witney (Robert Courts), who is not able to right about the importance of testing, and also right to be present today, has made to me in the past. highlight the work of the Secretary of State in this My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe also respect. The Secretary of State has always been very asked whether the regulations might or might not be clear in saying that it is a team effort that has got us to ultra vires. I will say only a few more words on the issue, reaching the target, last week, of 100,000 tests per day. because I am conscious that, if the press reports are to I would say, however, that in a team, leadership is be believed, there is a possibility that some may be important. He has shown that leadership in this very considering legal cases on this issue and I would not important matter, and I pay tribute to him for that. wish to stray into that territory, save to reiterate what I My hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South said in my opening remarks: the Government believe Downs (Andrew Griffith) was absolutely right to highlight that section 45C of the Public Health (Control of the importance of consent. Consent comes from us Disease) Act 1984 does give sufficient authority to following due process and adhering to the rule of law Ministers and to the Government to implement the through this Chamber—through this House. We will regulations. always bear that very much in mind. The shadow Minister The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon and others made the point very clearly that they would (Layla Moran) was right to highlight the challenge expect this House to be very much involved, as swiftly posed in some businesses—she highlighted the experience as possible, in any further decisions or changes. I know of call-centre staff—and the need for businesses to do that will have been heard by my right hon. Friend the everything in their power, if people are working in a job Prime Minister in Downing Street. 469 Public Health 4 MAY 2020 470

I conclude with my thanks—and indeed, I suspect, all Pensions of our thanks—to NHS and care staff and key workers around this country, all of whom are doing so much for 7.30 pm all of us. These are exceptional measures that we should The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work only maintain for as long as necessary, but at the and Pensions (Guy Opperman) [V]: I beg to move, moment, regrettably, they do remain necessary.Therefore, That the draft Automatic Enrolment (Offshore Employment) I also thank the British people for their incredible spirit (Amendment) Order 2020, which was laid before this House on and support for these measures. The fight against covid-19 16 March, be approved. is a tough one that has brought forth a national effort in Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this we this country. I am convinced that we will beat it, for shall take the following motion: when this great country comes together, it is unbeatable. I commend these regulations to the House. That the draft Occupational and Personal Pension Schemes (Automatic Enrolment) (Amendment) Regulations 2020, which Question put and agreed to. were laid before this House on 16 March, be approved. Resolved, The Minister is asked to speak for no more than That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) 20 minutes Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 350), dated 26 March 2020, a Guy Opperman: I am pleased to introduce these copy of which was laid before this House on 26 March, be approved. instruments, which follow the statement that I laid before the House on 16 March. It is an honour to address the House remotely, and to be the first Member PUBLIC HEALTH of Parliament for Hexham to do so. I hope that it is also Resolved, the last time I do so, and that we can get back to That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) business as usual and to the Parliament that we had (Amendment) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 447), dated 21 April before. 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 22 April, be Before I turn to the substance of the instruments, approved.—(Edward Argar.) Mr Deputy Speaker, I hope that you will indulge me briefly while I comment on some of the matters before Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): We us. We have a situation in which 25% of the working have concluded this session a few minutes earlier than population are furloughed, with their wages paid for by expected—not through bad arithmetical calculation, I the Government, and the Department for Work and would like the House to know, but because a few people Pensions is undertaking the Herculean task of taking who had indicated that they wished to speak and had well over 1 million people on to universal credit. As you been on the list to speak decided at the last minute not will know, Mr Deputy Speaker, it is also Star Wars Day. to. I therefore suspend the House for rather more than While I am absolutely certain that the force is with you, 30 minutes, until 7.30 pm. I hope that the force is also with my broadband provider. If it fails, I can assure you that I will not blame the 6.55 pm Government. Sitting suspended (Order, this day.) It is an honour to be a Minister at the DWP and to be On resuming— the first to move regulations in this way. In her statement earlier,the Secretary of State rightly thanked our fantastic workforce, who have worked day and night to ensure that all the DWP’s services are provided in a professional and competent manner. I should like to put on the record my thanks to all the staff who work at the DWP, including those in jobcentres up and down the country, such as Hexham jobcentre in my constituency. I also thank everybody at Team Pensions, who have worked tirelessly to ensure that covid-19 does not adversely impact local and national populations. In particular, we have cancelled the pension levy increase, help has been given to defined contribution and defined benefit providers, and we continue to try to stop the public being scammed. Finally,I thank my team in Hexham, led by James McArdle, and my team at the DWP, led by Lauren Thomas. Mr Deputy Speaker, you are aware of the importance of automatic enrolment in all our constituencies, and these instruments are important. Automatic enrolment is one of the great cross-party success stories. Conceived under a Labour Government, formulated and brought forward under the coalition, and expanded under a Conservative Government, it is one of the finest public policy successes in the last generation. We now have 10 million plus people who have been automatically enrolled on to an occupational pension; automatic enrolment has transformed workplace savings. They are now saving 8% per annum on an ongoing basis, which simply was not the case previously. 471 Pensions 4 MAY 2020 Pensions 472

[Guy Opperman] Going forward to the next stages, in the spirit that the Pensions Minister referred to I saythat we have monumental The instruments will implement the conclusions of problems as a country and I am in no doubt whatsoever the 2018 statutory review. The review concluded that that there will be significant implications for pensions automatic enrolment into workplace pensions should and future generations of pension earnings for years to continue for eligible employees in the maritime industries, come. But today these are necessary statutory instruments, ensuring their access to a pension in the same way as which we are more than happy to support. workers in the rest of the UK economy. Subject to the approval of the House, the instruments will remove the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. There is sunset clauses contained in the original 2012 legislation a 10-minute limit on contributions and I hope contributors so that it continues in force beyond the current expiry have timing devices so they do not go over that limit. date of 1 July 2020. The business of the Government goes on notwithstanding the impacts of covid-19. We 7.39 pm will overcome this pandemic, we are Great Britain. Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP) [V]: Thank I commend these regulations to the House. you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I ask the It is great to join you from Aberdeen, just 400 miles shadow Minister not to speak for longer than 15 minutes. or so north of Parliament. It is perhaps apt that I am partaking in these proceedings from the north-east of Scotland, given that many of those who will be directly 7.35 pm affected by the business before us will live or work in Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab) [V]: this wonderful part of Scotland. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Before I start, I wish to echo the Minister’s sentiments Following on from what the Pensions Minister said, about the tireless work being undertaken by public our country is gripped by the greatest crisis since 1945, sector staff across Scotland and the rest of the United and in the great battle to save jobs and livelihoods I too Kingdom. It is important to state from the outset, have nothing but praise for the DWP staff, who, together without equivocation, that we must always treat the with key and essential workers throughout our country, health and welfare of seafarers and offshore workers have been utterly magnificent in rising to the challenge with the utmost importance and to commend these of protecting the public and the public interest. We will workers for the duties they undertake on a daily basis, come through this, not least because in an hour of in conditions that can often be harsher and more challenging darkness what we saw was our staff, the very best of than any of us can imagine. From those working on oil Britain, rising to the challenge, putting themselves on platforms to those fishing the seas, the workers we are the line to support others, sometimes in desperate difficulty referring to tonight are many of the unsung heroes who and occasionally putting themselves in harm’s way, to keep our society functioning, and many of them will still do the job they are determined to do. They deserve be working as hard as ever despite the obstacles posed nothing but our warmest praise. by the ongoing pandemic. That is why it is important The Pensions Minister has heard me say before that that we all agree to the business before us tonight, for it auto-enrolment, introduced by the last Labour Government, ensures that these key workers continue to quality for was a landmark achievement. It is deeply welcome that auto-enrolment into a workplace pension, something there has been a continuity of policy, as a consequence that many of us on dry land simply take for granted. of which 10.2 million people are now saving £90 billion In such challenging circumstances, doing anything a year via auto-enrolment. We are seeing extraordinary but continuing to provide this guaranteed access to a benefits: for example, 77% of people are now engaged workplace pension would be unforgivable, and I am in a workplace pension. It was a dream that we would glad that we all seem to be in agreement on that point. ever make such progress in years gone by; it was a vision However, given the subject matter before us, it would be that we gave birth to and carried forward. I stress once remiss of me not to outline where the Government can again that I welcome the continuity of policy on the and should be going further in their support of these part of the Government. workers in the future. It should come as no surprise to There is undoubtedly room for improvement with anyone that my colleagues and I in the Scottish National auto-enrolment; 8% cannot be the summit of our ambition party have many, many frustrations about the policies —the £10,000 threshold and the age of 22 threshold likewise. of the UK Government, and that is very much true of There are improvements that require to be made at the the business tonight, because despite this debate being next stages, including tackling the deep-seated problems focused on protecting workers’ rights to auto-enrolment for the self-employed. Having said that, it is absolutely and to a workplace pension, these measures will ultimately right that we celebrate the progress made thus far. fail to cover all seafarers and offshore workers. The Turning to the statutory instruments, we must constantly reason for that is simple, and it lies in the fact that those broaden the scope of auto-enrolment to take in yet who earn less than £10,000 each year, through low pay more workers on the one hand and ensure that nobody or having part-time work, or, in some instances, a falls out on the other. To that end, these statutory combination of both, are simply not eligible for automatic instruments are necessary; otherwise, the interests of enrolment. It is not unreasonable to suggest that fair maritime workers and seafarers would be put at risk, pay and fair pensions should be at the forefront of what and that cannot be right, not least because of the job we seek to promote as parliamentarians, so I urge the that they do. The sunset clause that would otherwise Government to look again at this point in the future. have created real problems for continuity requires to be I appreciate and accept that many immediate and pressing dealt with by way of these statutory instruments, and challenges are facing Ministers, but where they have the we are therefore pleased to endorse them and we will power to elicit positive change, they should be doing so, certainly not be voting against them. and lowering the auto-enrolment threshold of £10,000 473 Pensions 4 MAY 2020 474 would be a proactive and positive step in the right the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack direction, one that would undoubtedly provide a further Dromey), should say that this is a cross-party success layer of support to many of the hardest workers who story, and I thank him for the commendable way in find themselves on the lowest pay. which he has approached these regulations and the The second key area of frustration that I wish to work that we do together. On the comments by the hon. reflect on relates to the situation facing many offshore Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn), who workers based here in Aberdeen. At present, not a day speaks for the Scottish National party, I would merely goes by when we do not pick up a paper, or look online, point out that approximately 24% of the population and see that companies and organisations operating in have been furloughed and are being supported by taxpayers the offshore industry are looking at job cuts. Indeed, in and the Government and that over 1 million people some instances the decision has already been taken to have recently moved on to universal credit, massively dismiss hundreds of staff members. However, despite enhanced. There is no doubt that there are great difficulties that worrying trend, coupled with continued pleas for in the north-east of Scotland, but I am certain that the support from both workers and businesses, the UK Chancellor and the entire Government are fully supportive, Government have opted to sit silent. It is all good and whether through the coronavirus job retention scheme well the Government bringing forward this business or any of the other schemes that they are putting tonight to ensure that offshore workers have access to a forward, to ensure that this country gets through this workplace pension, but when will the Government bring terrible pandemic. forward measures to ensure that jobs are protected in Question put and agreed to. the first place? Put simply, someone cannot have a workplace pension if they no longer have an employer. I have raised this issue of the lack of support for the OCCUPATIONAL AND PERSONAL PENSION offshore industry with the Government on numerous SCHEMES (AUTOMATIC ENROLMENT) occasions in recent months, and it is important to stress (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS 2020 that the challenges facing the industry are not isolated Resolved, to the coronavirus pandemic. On 3 January, the price of That the House has considered the Occupational and Personal a barrel of Brent crude oil was almost $70, whereas as Pension Schemes (Automatic Enrolment) (Amendment) Regulations of 5 pm today it stood at about $26, having been as low 2020.—(Stuart Andrew.) as $19 last week. The industry has had to face the perfect storm of an OPEC price war coupled with the Business Without Debate unprecedented situation posed by covid-19. The harsh reality is that the storm is being felt in Aberdeen, and I, like many others, feel that it could get much worse ENVIRONMENT BILL: PROGRAMME (NO. 2) before it gets better. One way in which it can get better, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing and sooner, is if the UK Government listen and act Order No. 83A(7)), upon the support mechanisms proposed by the likes of That the Order of 26 February 2020 (Environment Bill: Oil & Gas UK in relation to the job retention scheme, Programme) be varied as follows: In paragraph (2) of the Order the covid corporate financing facility and the coronavirus (conclusion of proceedings in Public Bill Committee), for “Tuesday business interruption loan scheme—CBILS. Another 5 May” substitute “Thursday 25 June”.—(David T. C. Davies). way is to provide the money necessary to support the Question agreed to. city and wider region to embark on a just transition that protects jobs and builds a sustainable future. If this UK Government do not act, the reality is that SCOTTISH AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: the business before us tonight will not be worth the ADJOURNED DEBATE ON QUESTION paper it is written on for the thousands of workers who (2 MARCH) will lose their jobs. We should all back this motion as it Ordered, protects the auto-enrolment of seafarers and offshore That Mhairi Black, Andrew Bowie, Deidre Brock, Wendy workers at present, but let us not stop there. Let us Chamberlain, Alberto Costa, Jon Cruddas, David Duguid, Sally-Ann remove the unnecessary financial cap on entry to the Hart, John Lamont and Liz Twist be members of the Scottish scheme, and let us do everything we can to ensure that Affairs Committee. ”.—(Stuart Andrew). those workers whose jobs are currently uncertain have their futures protected by this UK Government. ADJOURNMENT 7.45 pm Guy Opperman [V]: I will speak briefly in response. I 7.47 pm thank both hon. Gentlemen for their support for the House adjourned without Question put (Order A(5), regulations. It is entirely right that my Labour colleague, 22 April).

33WS Written Statements 4 MAY 2020 Written Statements 34WS

The Government support this approach, and the Written Statement Secretary of State for Education has assigned an additional function to HM Chief Inspector for this purpose, under Monday 4 May 2020 section 118(4) of the Education and Inspections Act 2006. A copy of the Secretary of State’s letter to Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector confirming this additional function will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. EDUCATION Ofsted requires an advance to support the redeployment until the 2020-21 ambit is agreed through the passage of the Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Act 2020 Contingencies Fund Advance in July. Parliamentary approval for resources of £32,000,000 for this new expenditure will be sought in a main estimate The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb): The for Ofsted. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services estimated at £32,000,000 will be met by repayable cash and Skills (Ofsted) intends to redeploy some employed advances from the Contingencies Fund. staff and allocate some contracted inspectors to support As Ofsted is a non-ministerial Department, I am Government Departments, their agencies, local authorities making this statement on behalf of its accounting officer, and the education and care sectors (including schools, to ensure that Parliament is informed of this advance further education colleges, nurseries and children’s homes) from the Contingencies Fund in the normal way. during the period in which routine inspection has [HCWS221] temporarily paused as a consequence of covid-19.

9P Petitions 4 MAY 2020 Petitions 10P

best practice advisory guidance to support them in Petition making these decisions. This guidance is clear that, when considering how the uniform should be sourced, Monday 4 May 2020 schools should give highest priority to cost considerations and value for money for parents. OBSERVATIONS On 5 February, the hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury) introduced his Private Members’ Bill, the Education (Guidance about Costs of School Uniforms) EDUCATION Bill. The Government are supporting the progress of Cost of school uniforms this bill through Parliament in order to make our guidance The petition of residents of the United Kingdom, on the cost considerations for school uniform statutory at the earliest opportunity. Declares that there has been an overall increase in the cost of school uniforms; further that at the same time At the second reading of the Education (Guidance there has been an overall increase in the range of items about Costs of School Uniforms) Bill, the Government now prescribed by schools; further that there has been made clear that, the starting point for any future statutory an increase in the range of school-wear carrying school guidance on uniform costs would be the current non- branding, removing the choice of lower cost alternatives; statutory guidance on uniform cost considerations. The further that some schools have further limited parental existing guidance is clear that the school uniform should choice by naming single approved suppliers; and further be easily available for parents to purchase and that that these changes have put intolerable financial burdens schools should keep branded items to a minimum. on families already struggling with the cost of living. Exclusive single supplier contracts should be avoided unless regular tendering competitions are run and where The petitioners therefore requests that the House of best value for parents is secured. Commons urges the Government to bring forward legislation to: limit the number of compulsory branded Any future guidance, as is the case now, will encourage items of school-wear; ensure that all items are available schools to be reasonable in their use of branded or from at least two suppliers; cap the total cost of compulsory bespoke uniform items and stress a considered use of items of school-wear. suppliers underpinned by competitive tendering processes. And the petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Whilst we sympathise with the aims of this petition—to Emma Hardy, Official Report, 10 March 2020, Vol. 673, reduce the burden of unreasonable school uniform costs c. 248.] for parents—we consider it important to uphold schools’ [P002557] decision making in this area. This Government have been clear that it believes that uniform is a matter for Observations from the Minister for School Standards schools, in light of their local circumstances and taking (Nick Gibb): account of the views of parents and pupils. Therefore, The Government encourages schools to have a uniform, any future statutory guidance on uniform cost will be as it can play a valuable role in contributing to the ethos respectful of schools’ decision making in this area, of a school and setting an appropriate tone. However, whilst seeking to ensure that schools take these decisions no school uniform should be so expensive as to leave within a sensible framework which prioritises the issue pupils or their families feeling unable to apply to the of cost for families. The Government does not wish to school of their choice due to the cost of the uniform. dictate to schools a numerical limit on the number of Decisions about school uniform, including how it is branded items or a ban on single supplier contracts. sourced, are a matter for a school’s governing body or Rather, it wishes to provide a robust framework that academy trust. The Department for Education publishes aids decision making at a local level.

5MC Ministerial Corrections4 MAY 2020 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

disclose the victim of an indecent image, it is more likely Ministerial Correction that there will be an extended determinate sentence than a life sentence. Indeed, in the case of Vanessa Monday 4 May 2020 George, the sentence handed down was an extended determinate sentence, so that would have been caught by clause 2 rather than by clause 1. [Official Report, 3 March 2020, Vol. 672, c. 786.] JUSTICE Letter of correction from the Parliamentary Under- Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Philp): Victims) Bill Errors have been identified in the response I gave to The following is an extract from proceedings in Committee my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West of the whole House on the Prisoners (Disclosure of (Sir Desmond Swayne). Information About Victims) Bill on 3 March 2020. The correct statement should have been:

Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): How Chris Philp: … It is worth mentioning, in response to often are the circumstances set out in amendment 1 my right hon. Friend’s intervention, that amendment 1 under new subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii) actually likely to adds into the provisions of this Bill sentences of occur? A life sentence for photographic offences—is imprisonment for public protection, which can also be that actually likely to happen often? handed down for making indecent images. Clause 2 covers the slightly broader type of sentence—namely, Chris Philp: … It is worth mentioning, in response to extended determinate sentences, whether they are handed my right hon. Friend’s intervention, that amendment 1 down for manslaughter or the failure to disclose the adds into the provisions of this Bill sentences of subject of an indecent image. He is quite right to point imprisonment for public protection, which can also be out that in cases where there has been a failure to handed down for making indecent images. Clause 2 disclose the victim of an indecent image, there will now covers the slightly broader type of sentence—namely, be an extended determinate sentence than a life sentence. extended determinate sentences, whether they are handed However, in the case of Vanessa George, the sentence down for manslaughter or the failure to disclose the handed down was a sentence of imprisonment for public subject of an indecent image. He is quite right to point protection, so that would have been caught by clause 1 out that in cases where there has been a failure to rather than by clause 2. ORAL ANSWERS

Monday 4 May 2020

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL CABINET OFFICE...... 410 STRATEGY ...... 401 Covid-19: Armed Forces Support for NHS Trusts . 418 Coronavirus Business Interruption Loan ...... 401 Covid-19: Devolved Administrations ...... 417 Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme: Ineligible Covid-19: False Information Online...... 417 Workers...... 409 Covid-19: Large-scale Testing and Tracing...... 419 Covid-19: New Ways of Working...... 405 Covid-19 Testing: Restriction to Hospital Covid-19: Small Businesses ...... 406 Admissions ...... 419 Covid-19: Support for Businesses...... 407 EU Joint Procurement Programme for PPE...... 415 Covid-19: UK Space Industry...... 406 EU Withdrawal Agreement: Covid-19 ...... 414 PPE Shortages: Profiteering...... 410 PPE Manufacture: UK Businesses ...... 410 Support for Vaccine Manufacturing and Life Transition Period: Extension...... 416 Sciences Sector...... 404 Ventilators...... 413 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Monday 4 May 2020

Col. No. EDUCATION...... 33WS Contingencies Fund Advance ...... 33WS PETITION

Monday 4 May 2020

Col. No. EDUCATION...... 9P Cost of school uniforms...... 9P MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Monday 4 May 2020

Col. No. JUSTICE...... 5MC Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Bill...... 5MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Monday 11 May 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 675 Monday No. 53 4 May 2020

CONTENTS

Monday 4 May 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 401] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office

Covid-19: DWP Update [Col. 421] Statement—(Dr Coffey)

Public Health [Col. 441] Motions—(Matt Hancock)—agreed to

Pensions [Col. 470] Motions—(Guy Opperman)—agreed to

Written Statement [Col. 33WS]

Petition [Col. 9P] Observations

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]