DÁIL ÉIREANN

AN COISTE UM THITHÍOCHT AGUS EASPA DÍDINE

COMMITTEE ON HOUSING AND HOMELESSNESS

Déardaoin, 19 Bealtaine 2016

Thursday, 19 May 2016

The Select Committee met at 10.30 a.m.

MEMBERS PRESENT:

Deputy John Brassil,* Deputy Michael Harty, Deputy Catherine Byrne, Deputy Gino Kenny,+ Deputy Mary Butler, Deputy Fergus O’Dowd, Deputy Seán Canney, Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan, Deputy Ruth Coppinger, Deputy Eoin Ó Broin, Deputy Bernard J. Durkan, Deputy Brendan Ryan, Deputy Kathleen Funchion, Deputy Mick Wallace.

* In the absence of Deputy Barry Cowen.

+ In the absence of Deputy Ruth Coppinger for part of the meeting.

DEPUTY JOHN CURRAN IN THE CHAIR.

1 Irish Refugee Council Irish Refugee Council

Chairman: I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamen- tary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

The opening statements submitted by the witnesses will be published on the committee website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind the witnesses and colleagues to turn off their mobile telephones or put them into flight mode.

I welcome from the Irish Refugee Council, Ms Sue Conlan and Mr. Rory O’Neill. They are both welcome and I thank them for their attendance. While the committee has to hand the council’s opening statement, I invite the witnesses to make a statement or summary, after which I will invite colleagues to ask them a number of questions.

Ms Sue Conlan: I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to appear before the committee to address issues regarding the reception and housing of asylum seekers and refugees. I apologise for the late submission of the documents, which members may not have had time to read in full. While I will not repeat what is in the document and would welcome any questions arising from it, I wish to draw attention to a few points. The way in which Mr. Rory O’Neill and I will divide up the subject is that I will speak about the initial reception of asylum seekers and refugees and he then will deal with the issues relating to the transition of people once they get their papers or of those who are moving from the initial reception centres for refugees.

I will start with a story because it helps to illustrate the reality we are discussing. Two days ago, I spent a couple of hours with a young man in his late 20s from a country that is well known in the news at present for giving rise to refugees. I spent time with him because he was in Dub- lin for an interview in connection with his asylum claim that was to take place the day after. He had come to Dublin the day before because he would not otherwise have been able to make it in time for a 9 a.m. interview. It was the second time I had met him and as I spent time with him, he spoke to me and showed me photographs of his home, of people with whom he went to university and of his wife and their daughter. We spoke about what had led him to leave - it was all of his own volition - and his hopes that, eventually, he will be able to get his papers here. He has been here for a relatively short period, and he wants to bring his wife and daughter to join him because he is feeling very isolated. The emphasis of the point he was making to me or that came across was that while he hopes to get his refugee status quite soon and then to be able to bring his wife and daughter, the problem will be that he is in a direct provision centre. They will not be able to live with him in that centre. He studied English literature at university, is already well aware of the housing situation here and wonders how long it will be before he is able to get accommodation that would facilitate him being reunited with his wife and daughter. This is one reason this housing situation is so key to people who are expected to get refugee status and to make Ireland their home. 2 Committee on Housing and Homelessness However, I wish to mention another factor pertaining to him, which is that I met him again on the day after. I took him to the direct provision centre in Dublin at which he was staying the night before, accommodation having been arranged for him, and asked him how he got on. He replied that he had not slept. He had been put into a room with two other people he had never met before who were from different countries and who already had been living there for a while. The accommodation simply did not suit him that well. He had a roof over his head and a bed to sleep on, but this was before probably the most important interview that he was due to have. The thing we forget about direct provision and the accommodation of asylum seekers is that accommodation is part of an important process. Unless one is accommodated in a place that enables a person to engage properly with that process, a wrong decision can be made.

Two weeks ago, I met with someone who after eight years has finally had a decision on his refugee appeal. That is the first of three applications in this country.

I want to touch on one other thing, which is already on the public record. There is a group at a mosque in Dublin, the Dublin Islamic Foundation of Ireland, which has requested access to Muslim refugees in an emergency reception and orientation centre in Monasterevin in County Kildare. The reply on record to that from the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, given on 17 May, indicates the restrictions they put in place for the purposes of pro- tection of privacy. There is a statement in that reply, however, which is fundamentally wrong. I want to read that statement. It says: “It is required under law to protect the identity of refugees.” That is not true. Section 19 of the Refugee Act 1996, which is still in force, and section 26 of the International Protection Act 2015, due to come into force in July, refer to protecting the identity of applicants under the Acts. In addition, the 2015 Act refers to those who have been applicants under the Act.

Refugees being transferred from Jordan to Lebanon have never applied under any Act in this country. They are being brought in, already recognised as refugees. Therefore, the newer refugees who are coming to these emergency reception and orientation centres are wrongly being denied the opportunity for greater integration with local communities. The reason the mosque sought an approach was because Ramadan is coming up and they want to help facilitate those people in having access to wider Muslim groups. I just wanted to put those two things on record.

Let me now come to other issues. Anything that we say is already in full knowledge of the difficulties that are being faced by people already in the country who are seeking housing or have been made homeless. One of the things that the homelessness situation has drawn atten- tion to is the fact that others, such as teachers, are beginning to speak out about the impact quite soon on children of being in hotels, and not having the privacy or space they need. Yet, gener- ally, this is the situation that asylum seekers have been facing for many years.

As we say in the first line of our presentation, being a refugee is the most extreme form of loss of home and displacement. It is the ultimate in homelessness. They are in a country they do not know, separated from family who themselves may be spread in many other countries. Since last September, a two-tier system has developed in Ireland, and there is a danger in that. We are beginning to see people fleeing wars, the real refugees, and the others who come for other reasons or from countries that are not so prominent in the news, such as South Sudan and Burundi, as perhaps not being as entitled to protection as refugees. That is wrong in itself be- cause refugee status can arise, for example, because of sexual orientation.

Because we are focusing on what the EU is doing, with an emphasis of course upon Syria 3 Irish Refugee Council for obvious reasons, given the numbers who have fled and are now fleeing that country, we have two systems. We have a direct provision system for people who come of their own volition and claim asylum. We also have the emergency reception and orientation centres and further resettlements for those being brought into the country either from Jordan and Lebanon as recog- nised refugees, or relocated from Greece and Italy.

Ireland made a commitment to take about 4,000 either by way of resettlement or relocation. So far, a family of ten have come from Greece but more are in the pipeline to be relocated from Greece and Italy. The difference therefore is quite stark between those in direct provision and those in the emergency reception and orientation centres. I will touch on that a little more when it comes up. The direct provision centres are overseen by the Reception and Integration Agen- cy, RIA, which is part of the Department of Justice and Equality. RIA’s website states it “seeks to ensure that the material needs of residents, in the period during which their applications for international protection are being processed, are met.” RIA continues to accommodate people post protection application, as well as those who have a deportation order against them but have not yet been removed from the country. To some degree, it reduces homelessness.

As I indicated in my story at the beginning of my submission on accommodation for those awaiting a decision on an asylum claim, it is not just their material needs which need to be met. It is not just a question of a roof over one’s head or food in one’s belly. I asked a young man in an accommodation centre about the food there. He goes for one of the three meals a day. He already knows a bit about Ireland and joked he is already integrating well into Ireland as he sometimes just eats potato because he has got a taste for them. Often, he does not like the food, however. Both direct provision centres and emergency reception and orientation centres share characteristics with accommodation for homeless people where residents lack autonomy, control, privacy, security and the ability to engage properly with friends or people from the community.

RIA has given us up-to-date statistics, which are not available publicly due to staff short- ages. These show more than 600 people have been in direct provision for more than eight years, 13.4% of the total population of direct provision centres. These centres comprise hotels, chalets and mobile homes. More than 1,500 people, one third of the population of direct provision centres, have been in direct provision for more than three years. The average length of stay in direct provision centres is 38 months. This has a significant impact when it comes to people moving on.

The post of a Minister for integration has not existed since the previous Government came into power in March 2011. There are no plans for the integration of asylum seekers. Whatever status they get, many of these people will remain in Ireland. To a degree we are building prob- lems for the future because we are not providing them with the support to move on, whatever length of time they have spent in the system. RIA’s title is, therefore, misleading because the in- tegration element of the agency’s remit has not existed since 2007. Nearly ten years on, no one is addressing the integration of asylum seekers. In addition, on 28 March 2014, the Minister for Justice and Equality announced a review of Ireland’s approach to the integration of migrants. We have yet to see the publication of that integration policy. To be fair, the interdepartmental group conducting the review took submissions on the matter. While it may yet come, it still has not happened. Accordingly, we have not seen whether there will be an attempt to integrate a significant population with varied needs.

To date, two emergency reception and orientation centres have been opened, one in Mon- asterevin, County Kildare, owned by existing direct provision centre owners, and one in Dun- 4 Committee on Housing and Homelessness garvan, County Waterford, owned by a company not previously involved with asylum seekers and refugees. Orientation takes place between eight to ten weeks before people are moved to more long-term accommodation. One group is about to go to Kerry. Mayo County Council has announced a group will go to Mayo. There are plans to move some to Limerick and some have already gone to Mallow, County Cork. The exception with that group is that there was no real provision of support for it. The committee will have heard more about their stories in the news because when they linked up with local people, some of the information about the process came out and the way they were beginning to adapt to life in Mallow.

An unfortunate feature, which is reflected in the answer to those parliamentary questions, relates to the Office for the Promotion of Migrant Integration, which oversees settled refugees and the relocation of asylum seekers from Greece and Italy. While the office’s title clearly re- lates to the promotion of integration, unfortunately, it has taken secrecy and privacy to a new level to the extent that access is exceptionally difficult for people who want to engage with those new communities and enable them to begin to learn what life in Ireland is like. I made an application for the Irish Refugee Council to join forces with a very large company - during its charity month - in order to spend a day or part of a day at one of these two centres. I have been informed that the request has gone to the principal officer at the Office for the Promotion of Migrant Integration. That is not something that needs to be dealt with by a principal officer. It can be dealt with if people in these centres are properly trained. Of course, one does not want people going into the centres who will abuse and attack others but individuals who are offering a welcome, as we have seen in other countries, should not be set back and rendered unable to offer the support that is needed, including companies that are doing it as part of their corporate social responsibility.

I will deal briefly with the recommendations on page 4. We have made a recommendation that, in respect of the Reception and Integration Agency and the Office for the Promotion of Mi- grant Integration, the resettlement of refugees should be moved from the Department of Justice and Equality to the new Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. I may be wrong but I assume that the housing needs of everyone else who has made submissions to or is due to come before the committee are probably being dealt with by this new Department. Why would we, therefore, separate this group of people and put them under the remit of the Depart- ment of Justice and Equality? I do not know if the Taoiseach has made announcements about the new junior ministries. I know one of them was due to relate to housing. Clearly, this is a prime issue, hence the existence of this committee. Therefore, why not move responsibility for the housing of asylum seekers and refugees to that Department, particularly as it includes local government, which is key to the integration of these refugees who have been resettled around the country?

The second recommendation relates to the integration strategy that has been in the pipeline since March 2014. It would be good to see a commitment to publish it and, of course, to include asylum seekers within it. We also recommend phasing out direct provision along the lines we have previously proposed. We have created a link, which members will only be able to see in the electronic version, to a second proposal regarding what reception for asylum seekers should be. The first proposal was made in 2011. The proposal before the committee dates from De- cember 2013. It sets out what an alternative reception system for asylum seekers should be. That document addresses quite a number of points and I will leave it for members’ attention.

Finally, we recommend that companies and organisations which receive public funding should be required to operate transparently to bring about proper accountability. Paragraph

5 Irish Refugee Council 2.1 on page 2 relates to the 35 centres across 16 counties. The largest of these companies with capacity to accommodate more than one third of direct provision residents are registered as unlimited rather than limited liability companies. Therefore, they do not have to file publicly accessible returns with the Companies Registration Office. Of course, if it is a private business, it is entitled to some degree of privacy but huge amounts of public money are being put into di- rect provision. On average, we have calculated that approximately €48,000 would be provided per year to accommodate and support a family of four in one of these direct provision centres. How much of that could be used to allow that person to live in a community or at least give them greater autonomy and control by living in units where they are able to cook? I would have thought that it was a basic principle that public money should only go to companies where there is some ability to see how it is being used and how much is being used for the benefit of the people they are accommodating. That is, therefore, a further recommendation that we make. I have taken more time than I wanted but if there is time, Mr. O’Neill will briefly address-----

Chairman: We can go to Mr. O’Neill as colleagues ask questions.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: I would prefer to hear Mr. O’Neill first as that would make more sense.

Mr. Rory O’Neill: I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute. Currently, more than 500 people in the direct provision system have their papers and are entitled to leave. This is, obviously, because of the national housing crisis. The transition from a long-term shared institutional existence in direct provision to living autonomously in the community is seen as another precarious journey in the lives of asylum seekers and refugees. After years of endur- ing an institutional existence, the relief of receiving a positive status and being able to move is short-lived. The realisation that people now have to fend for themselves following years of living a life that allowed for no self-determination, freedom or independence is daunting and problematic as they make this transition. While we support and welcome the recommendations that others have made to this committee in regard to rent control, caps on rent, the increase in capital spending on social housing, increases in rent allowances and rent certainty among oth- ers, the issues of housing and homelessness affect many other groups of people.

We are here to acknowledge and illustrate the problems that face the migrant community and those who have been through the asylum process and are entitled to avail of the social en- titlements that are applicable to their situation and individual requirements. They have particu- lar and exigent needs which they are struggling to meet and address. Without access to suitable housing, this cohort of people will struggle to become productive and contributing members of society and will remain disenfranchised, which will further contribute to social injustice and inequality.

Even without suffering from the residual effects of institutional living, transitioning from direct provision is fraught with difficulty. A catch-22 situation exists for most people, whereby when they try to access social welfare payments, they are unable to do so because they do not have an address. They have to be out of the direct provision system to obtain an address. They are, therefore, caught in a vicious cycle where they cannot access social welfare to get housing unless they can get out of the hostels. Some people are able to access social welfare while they are in the direct provision centres, thus giving them the ability to save for a deposit, but in the main, this is not the case. It should be remembered that people in the asylum system are not al- lowed to work - a prohibition maintained in the International Protection Act 2015 - and receive an allowance of €19.10 per week, which has enabled them to save for a deposit.

6 Committee on Housing and Homelessness In many cases, landlords do not accept rent allowance, even though they can no longer discriminate under legislation. However, this is a common problem for people exiting direct provision. They are unable to get references to access accommodation. The issue of sourc- ing accommodation that allows people to live close to family, schools and support networks is extremely difficult. As the committee will be well aware, the rental market for accommoda- tion is in extreme short supply. This is further compounded by the fact that landlords will not accept rent allowance. Rules forbidding asylum seekers from working and attending college exacerbate the isolation and social exclusion arising from living in direct provision involves and precludes them from moving on properly when they get their papers.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: I thank Ms Conlan and Mr. O’Neill for their presentations. Like a number of colleagues, I represent a constituency that has a significant asylum and direct provision community in Clondalkin. I work a lot with the residents of the Clondalkin Towers Refugee Centre, including those who are stuck in the asylum system and the approximately 40 families who have their papers and are yet to be housed. I fully support many of the council’s recommendations but they are beyond the scope of the limited role of the committee. We will, however, return to some of them when the housing committee is established.

We have to make a report to the Dáil and, ultimately, to the Minister in a few weeks which will attempt to examine immediate interventions to alleviate the worst aspects of the housing and homelessness crisis, including for the group of people we are discussing. There is a par- ticular set of difficulties which the witnesses know more about than I do, but I will put them on the record. When people get their papers, even after six or eight years in the direct provision system, the specific difficulties they have even getting on to social housing waiting lists, let alone getting access to housing, are far more burdensome than for non-asylum seekers. There are huge language barriers and the waiting time in most of the big urban local authorities to get a housing needs assessment is now four months. That is even before there is a formal decision on it. Navigating that system is incredibly complex.

The social welfare issue is also very complex. I know of many cases of people who have gotten their papers in Towers and have been awarded jobseeker’s allowance while still resident there. They are getting the reduced rate jobseeker’s allowance which is the same level as they were getting under the direct provision payment so it is a slightly different description of the same reality the witnesses have described. What measure or measures could be put in place immediately, presumably via the local authorities, to try to assist the transition process and meet the specific needs of the post-asylum process individuals we are talking about? If we were able to fix that bit or make a very good, strong recommendation to the Dáil and the Minister, even on that bit alone, it would be a huge help.

When one gets on the lists in most of the Dublin local authorities it is a ten-year wait, irre- spective of household size. In terms of accessing private rental accommodation with State sup- ports through HAP or whatever, and with the recommendations we have to make to the Dáil and the Minister in mind, do the witnesses have any specific recommendations on how to overcome the particular barriers that post-asylum application individuals are currently experiencing?

Chairman: I will take one other question at this stage.

Deputy Brendan Ryan: I thank the witnesses for coming in. Their insight is very useful and the real examples they use in their presentation are very helpful. In terms of their recom- mendations on housing and the housing needs of the groups they represent, the reason they are here today is because this group decided that this is an area we need to address. The witnesses 7 Irish Refugee Council have allies in here.

I agree with Deputy Ó Broin that we have limited scope in what we can do but in terms of their first recommendation, it would seem to me that any recommendation from us to say that the RIA should move to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Govern- ment might land on deaf ears. It might be a difficult objective to achieve. I would like to see the situation pertaining to the housing needs of the group coming within that scope. Will the witnesses think again about that particular recommendation? Could they have a fresh look at it and structure it differently so that we could go off and recommend some element in terms of housing needs to the Minister which would address their concerns on the housing element of it?

Deputy Mick Wallace: On the same point, I accept that it would be very difficult to achieve that but it is worth trying. The Department of Justice and Equality is not really the right place for it. I have serious reservations about how the Minister for justice is handling anything to do with refugees. This area is definitely something we should support moving into the new Department.

Chairman: Deputy Ó Broin really hit the nail on the head. This committee was established before the Government was and has a remit to report by 17 June 2016. While the witnesses have spoken on a range of issues, the focus of this committee is on the housing issue in particu- lar. It is not that we are not conscious of other issues, but our reporting will be on housing. The recommendations and issues that the witnesses have highlighted in that area are of paramount concern to the committee. I am not being disrespectful to or neglectful of the other issues but the focus of this committee is on the housing issue. Will Ms Conlan address the particular ques- tion that Deputies Ó Broin and Ryan asked?

Ms Sue Conlan: We did not refer specifically to the recommendations that followed Mr. Rory O’Neill’s but perhaps before I come to those I will try to address the particular issue that has been raised. When I referred to a two-tier system at the beginning, it was the difference be- tween people in direct provision and those in emergency reception and orientation centres. The difference with those asylum seekers being brought to the emergency reception and orientation centres is that when they get their papers, housing is found for them; they are not just given their papers and left to go on their own way. Recommendation No. 7 on the final page of the submission is to, “Provide people leaving direct provision with proper support for a minimum period of three months, including housing support workers as required.” We know from those who have worked with people coming out of prison, other institutional environments or home- lessness that it makes a huge difference to have somebody help navigate through the system, go to appointments with landlords and put documents together. It is a major step for somebody that makes quite a big practical difference to somebody. It helps to bridge a little of the hierar- chy developing between a group which we deem to be possibly more in need and deserving of protection and those who do not, regardless of whether they are the same nationality.

Deputy Ó Broin made the point about people in Clondalkin getting social welfare. If those people have the protection of refugee status or subsidiary protection, the Act actually refers to social welfare, not reduced amounts. There is a major issue concerning the legality of the deci- sion to reduce their payments to the €19.10. It is not uniform across the country that people can access social welfare or full social welfare payments in order to build up a bit of capital. There is a long wait even for social housing. We are not arguing that this group should jump a queue but it is about having equal access, even to the private rented market. I apologise if this is slightly outside the committee’s remit but that really helps people to get on their feet in whatever housing exists. Therefore, they can perhaps compete on a more equal footing, if we 8 Committee on Housing and Homelessness ignore the additional disadvantages they have.

Members will have to forgive us for putting some issues on record, even if they do not come under the remit of this committee. It concerns us that when we speak about accommodation and housing, it does not really make sense to divide it. There are particular needs of certain commu- nities and I know representatives of Pavee Point and an organisation dealing with people com- ing off or on drugs will also come before the committee. There are particular needs in commu- nities but in a sense, they are very basic. I was in front of the Central Bank on Saturday when we ran a refugee rights desk. We invited people to come up and leave a message of solidarity. Some people we met were homeless and one guy turned up with his sleeping bag. He left a message to refugees to “stay strong”. That is out of recognition that there is not necessarily a distinction. I take the point and we will put something very briefly to address more particularly issues coming from the committee. I hope the two recommendations might be of some benefit.

Mr. Rory O’Neill: It is about starting to involve the local communities in the integration process when people move out of direct provision so they can move on, providing support services when people are making the transition to negotiate social welfare and access to hous- ing. It is one of the big blocks for people. Those granted refugee status, subsidiary protection or leave to remain should have access to social welfare while in direct provision, as has been mentioned. This is so they can start building some capital and have the ability to move on. The Department of Social Protection or the Reception and Integration Agency should provide infor- mation to people when they receive papers on how to negotiate the systems and structures in place and impeding them in accessing housing. All of that would be very beneficial and make a difference.

Ms Sue Conlan: If a person has been in full board and lodging, including bedding, he or she would not have the basics when moving to rented accommodation. That person must start with towels, duvets and sheets. All of these add up and a person might struggle even to get those together. There should be access to that initial funding or some assistance in that way. A task force was set up to respond to the working group and the protection process last year. It produced a document which contained useful information about the Citizens Information Board, the Money Advice and Budgeting Service and so forth, but information alone, unless it is tangible and can help somebody access something, does not necessarily mean much. That points to somebody being put in place. In other countries the equivalent of the Reception and Integration Agency could tell them what group they now needed to approach to tell them about access to social welfare, help them access it and help them navigate the housing market. That type of assistance can make a huge difference. It means that although one is still joining a queue of 20 when looking at private accommodation, at least one is joining a queue rather than floundering about where even to find the accommodation.

Deputy John Brassil: I thank the witnesses for their report. Are the numbers increasing, decreasing or remaining steady? How is the current crisis in the Mediterranean affecting people coming here, wanting to come here or trying to get here by whatever means? The issue of the 500 people who are in direct provision centres but are qualified to move out is worrying. One would think that after spending so long in a direct provision service a person would do literally anything. The witness made the point that getting off the ground is very difficult. It is very difficult for anybody. My background is working with people at local authority level. I helped many people to get local authority housing. The local welfare office and the local council office provide assistance to people getting started with regard to cooking equipment, bedding and the like. Is the same service not available to refugees who have received their papers?

9 Irish Refugee Council Ms Sue Conlan: It is not so much that it is not available, as I am sure local authorities would make it available without discrimination or distinction. The issue is that people do not know. As mentioned in the document we produced, one is given a letter that says one has got one’s papers and 21 days to move on, although the Reception and Integration Agency allows people to stay longer because it recognises the difficulties they are in. That is the gap. There is the euphoria that one has finally got something, but then what? People who are in the sys- tem have said: “We are in Ireland but we are not of Ireland”. If they are not integrated from the beginning, what they need when they leave is almost a “welcome to Ireland” pack for the first time, which would point them in the direction of the existing services. Perhaps the local authorities could be a little more proactive when they know they have these direct provision centres in their localities.

With regard to numbers, the number is increasing. In 2013-14, the number arriving and claiming asylum reduced to under 1,000, but it started to grow in 2014-15. In 2015, approxi- mately 3,500 sought asylum in Ireland. In addition, on two occasions last year the Government entered into commitments to take an initial group from Lebanon, Jordan, Greece and Italy and then increased that. The commitment is 4,000 over two years, although that is moving very slowly. The numbers are increasing but because of Ireland’s geographical location and the dif- ficulty of getting in - as we know the borders have gone up and 50,000 are stuck in Greece - we are not seeing as many that could even make their way of their own volition. There are officers assisting the Greek authorities to determine applications. Officers from the Department of Jus- tice and Equality are going to countries such as Greece and Italy to try and identify people who could be located here. However, I suspect the numbers will stabilise from this point on because of difficulties in travelling. They did increase quite significantly, but nowhere near the peak of 11,500 in 2002. I do not expect them to go anywhere near that.

Deputy John Brassil: The recommendation about ability to work is the key issue. Refu- gees and asylum seekers would have a great deal to offer society and they should be given the opportunity. Whether we like it or not, there is a latent begrudgery out there. If asylum seekers are seen to be provided for - that is not what they want, but it is what they are forced into - it generates an attitude that is an unfortunate part of our society, but which is there. The ability to work would greatly alleviate that. I am sure many of the people concerned would be very beneficial to Irish society and they should be given the opportunity to contribute.

Is there any country that has managed to deal with this issue successfully and has a model of best practice in place that we could adopt? It seems to be a crisis everywhere. Is there any shining example out there of a government or a country that has done things right in this regard?

Ms Sue Conlan: There is not one-----

Chairman: Will Ms Conlan bear with me a moment? Deputy Harty wanted to come in and two other Members who have commented already want to do so again. I will come back to her then.

Deputy Michael Harty: Are residents officially deemed to be homeless when they go into direct provision and the emergency reception and orientation centres? At what stage do they become homeless? Is it when they leave those centres?

In respect of integration, is there no system of integration the moment people arrive in the reception centres or the emergency orientation centres? Is integration not a part of their as- similation?

10 Committee on Housing and Homelessness Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: I have two points arising from Deputy Brassil’s contribution. One of the problems, for example, is that there is a requirement when a person from outside Ireland is applying for social housing to provide documentation to prove they do not own property in another country. Obviously if that person has fled a country due to war or whatever, providing that documentation is almost impossible. Some local authorities will accept an affidavit, but an affidavit can cost between €20 and €50 and if someone is only getting €19.50 a week, that is a huge barrier. That is just one small thing.

The second issue, which the witnesses might comment on, is that all the local authorities provide exactly the same advice and information service to anybody who goes in, but not ev- erybody who goes in has the same ability to understand that advice and information. If one has grown up here, one understands what Revenue is and what a PPS number is, whereas if one has been trapped in direct provision for eight years and is now “out” officially, understanding all of that takes far more than the standard information and advice that good quality local authority clerks will provide. Do the witnesses feel there is a need for advocacy organisations to provide that additional support? Do they think it should be provided within the existing statutory agen- cies or do they have a preference?

Deputy Mick Wallace: I am probably cheating a bit by going off the subject, but given that the witnesses have a very good understanding of the issues, do they think the Government could look at the idea of screening unaccompanied minors in camps like Calais and Dunkirk? With EU policy and the Greece-Turkey deal, a situation in which only Syrians are really being entertained, those being pushed back from Greece are being replaced by Syrians who have not come over already. What can be done about, for example, people like the Kurds from Iraq and Afghans, whose country has absolutely collapsed and is divided up between the Taliban and ISIS at the moment? Is there any way the notion that the EU will say no to the Kurds and the Afghans can be challenged or addressed?

Chairman: Some of the questions were general in nature while others referred specifically to housing and I ask Ms Conlan to respond accordingly.

Ms Sue Conlan: On the question of whether there is one country we could look to, unfor- tunately there is not but there are models of good practice that we can learn from. We are in a situation where we have direct provision and emergency reception and orientation centres but we have to move, if the will is there, to a different model. There is a link on the electronic version of our submission to the 2013 document to which we referred. That document takes examples from different countries. It suggests, for example, what could be part of the system in the context of the vulnerability of victims of torture, people who have special medical needs or for people coming from certain countries. There are different models in operation.

The Germans took in 1 million refugees last year and employed 8,000 German language teachers because they recognised that language was key to integration. This links to the point Deputy Harty made about integration in the emergency reception and orientation centres. In Monasterevin, for example, the Department of Justice and Equality has contracted the Kildare Volunteer Association to assist with integration. However, it can add another barrier when oth- ers want to be involved, if it is being - at its crudest - policed in that way. Integration services do exist but not for the direct provision centres. That said, the language support that was needed in Monasterevin and other places has not been provided. Of course, it is an issue of resources. I know that those involved in education in Monasterevin met before the centre for resettled refugees opened and asked for extra support for children who do not speak English and extra language teachers so that they could engage with the parents. I believe an interpreter is visiting 11 Irish Refugee Council once a week but that is not sufficient.

Deputy Harty asked whether people are classed as being homeless when they are in direct provision. They are not but they can be classified thus after they leave direct provision and we know of some people in that situation. One of the big problems with direct provision is that there is no statutory framework for it. We have just passed the first major legislation on refugees in almost 20 years, namely the International Protection Act 2015 but there is no reference to the reception, accommodation and support of asylum seekers and refugees in that legislation. So we are still working on an administrative basis, which on one level means that making changes is a little easier but it also means a lack of oversight by elected representatives to the extent that one might expect if there was a statutory basis. Direct provision falls outside everything.

I am conscious that I am answering all of the questions and invite Rory to butt in.

Mr. Rory O’Neill: In the context of homelessness, it is during the transition from direct provision that people need help. If they got help with integration while they were in direct provision, that would make the transition a lot easier. They need to learn about the systems and structures they will have to negotiate once they get out. The big issue is integration while they are in the direct provision system. That would make life easier.

Ms Sue Conlan: In terms of advocacy, I would favour a mixed model. I would include lo- cal authorities in particular, as well as NGOs who specialise in certain areas. Good experience is now being built up as a result of refugees being resettled in greater numbers in Ireland, in places such as Thurles and Portlaoise. There are examples of inter-agency approaches which involve the voluntary sector, local authorities and central Government. If that can be devel- oped, it can work well. We do not want to reinvent the wheel. We should use the resources we already have, like Citizens Information offices, which are used to dealing with a variety of different issues. We should bring the various resources together, including the voluntary sec- tor. That would not involve an organisation like ours because we operate at a national rather than a local level. However, we work with the National Learning Network, for example, which has 50 centres around the country and could be involved in helping people to gain access to employment. Indeed, we worked on a pilot project with that organisation recently. I would recommend an inter-agency approach in this regard.

I think I have addressed all of the questions related to housing-----

Chairman: Yes.

Ms Sue Conlan: -----which brings me to Deputy Wallace’s question.

Chairman: Ms Conlan can conclude with Deputy Wallace’s question.

Ms Sue Conlan: I will deal with Deputy Wallace. I am aware that he has been to Calais and the impact that had. One of the great things about Ireland and Irish people is that they do not wait, they go. Dublin to Calais refugee solidarity group and others have been out to Calais in order to provide direct assistance to people who were there. I have also done work with haulage companies and lorry drivers on the grounds that they have picked up fines for bringing people in inadvertently when they never intended to. I have done it on the grounds that we should not penalise somebody for doing their job when they are not people smugglers or traffickers; they just cannot police their vehicles the whole of the time. Various bits of work have been done.

One of the groups that has been to Calais, Dunkirk and also to Cherbourg, because at Cher-

12 Committee on Housing and Homelessness bourg one can get through to Ireland more directly, is the Immigrant Council of Ireland which followed a UK lawyer’s model of seeing whether there were people attempting to come to Ireland who had family members there. Most of the people it came across wanted to go to the UK. I have no doubt that if any identify themselves as wanting to join family, an attempt will be made to persuade the Irish Government to allow them to come without waiting for their asylum claim to be dealt with in France 18 months later. That includes unaccompanied children and, unfortunately, France falls down when it comes to unaccompanied children. The reason there is such a large number in those camps in Calais is that it does not address them as a specific group despite its need for them. I think there are people looking at how to do that.

There are people in Greece who are indicating they would be willing to come to Ireland and so the Department could say, “Let us be a little more proactive”. Portugal put it out there that it would take people. It produced a video inviting people to come to Portugal. As Portugal has lost so many Portuguese, it knows it needs people for the labour market to rebuild the country. Things like that could be done even in countries such as Greece to say it is open, that it is not anywhere near the commitment it has made to take 2,900, so let us be more proactive in Greece and actually determine who can come and avoid the necessity to end up in camps such as at Calais.

The issue of the Kurds and the Afghans is a huge question. I am sure I am not expected to answer it in full. The big concern about the EU-Turkey deal is that, again, Syrians were pri- oritised. Turkey has no commitment not to return Afghans and Iraqis to those countries. We know already that they have prevented Syrians from crossing as well. Children have been shot dead at the border with Turkey and many have been beaten by Turkish border guards. That is part of a much wider debate on the whole issue of refugee and forced migration. What we must avoid, which is why I commented on it at the outset, is a two-tier system where we say deserving refugees and undeserving refugees or refugees and economic migrants because these are all on a continuum at some point in time. That is part of a much bigger refugee question and Ireland is co-hosting a UN conference in September in New York on the whole crisis. That goes beyond the remit of this committee but that is where the Dáil and Seanad can say what they want to on the hosting role. It is rather like being a chairperson and remaining neutral but it is a great opportunity for us to say what Ireland is doing that someone else can hold up as a model or can work towards. That conference in September is key to the questions and the issues we have discussed here but also those much bigger issues that we do not differentiate. What we are seeing is people claiming to be Syrian who are not Syrian because they know that Syrians are getting preferential treatment. That does them no good and it does the Syrians a disservice as well but it is bound to happen. If one can get through the gates by being a Syrian, one will try to do that to save oneself and one’s family or to be reunited. I cannot do justice to that question because it is much bigger but I would be happy to touch base with the committee on that issue.

Chairman: That concludes this session. I thank Ms Conlan and Mr. O’Neill for their atten- dance and their submissions. With regard to the housing element, and in particular the home- lessness issue, if there are any recommendations which the witnesses feel could be of use to the committee, time is short and I ask them to forward their recommendations to us as a matter of urgency. The committee will conclude its work in the next couple of weeks and it is that aspect in particular that we would welcome. I thank the witnesses, once again, for their attendance today.

Sitting suspended at 11.35 a.m. and resumed at 11.40 a.m.

13 Pavee Point Pavee Point

Chairman: I remind witnesses and colleagues that their mobile phones should be turned off or put on flight mode please. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, wit- nesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this com- mittee. However, if they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The opening statement that the witnesses have submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after the meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Ms Ronnie Fay, Ms Mary Brigid McCann, Ms Missie Collins and Mr. Eamonn McCann, representatives of Pavee Point, and thank them for their attendance. We have received their opening submission, which has been circulated to colleagues. I invite them to address the meeting and then I am sure colleagues will have a number of questions for them.

Deputy Gino Kenny: I am here to replace Deputy Ruth Coppinger.

Chairman: Okay. Thank you.

Ms Ronnie Fay: Pavee Point is delighted to have the opportunity to make a presentation to the committee, and we welcome the fact that the accommodation needs of Travellers and Roma are included in the overall discussions on the housing crisis. Today we focus explicitly on Traveller accommodation. However, we encourage the committee to examine the housing needs of the Roma community at a later stage in its deliberations.

Travellers experience marginalisation, discrimination and racism on the basis of their eth- nicity at individual and institutional levels. Local authorities have continuously failed to pro- vide permanent, safe and adequate Traveller-specific accommodation, which they are respon- sible for. Paradoxically, local authorities use health and safety issues as a basis for ongoing Traveller evictions. Subsequent to the tragic fire on a Traveller site in Carrickmines in 2015, a national fire safety audit of Traveller accommodation was rolled out. Even though we received an assurance that the audits would not result in forced evictions, a number of evictions have taken place throughout the country, leaving families homeless or forcing people to stay at the homes and bays of extended family members.

The lack of prioritisation and political will is illustrated in the cuts to the Traveller accom- modation budget. Between 2008 and 2013, the Traveller accommodation budget was cut from €40 million to €4 million. This is a staggering 90%. Even more shockingly, there was an un- derspend of 36% of the allocated Traveller accommodation budgets by local authorities.

The Government’s statistics obscure the reality of homelessness and accommodation condi- tions within the Traveller community. The term “sharing” when used with reference to houses and halting bays is a euphemism for chronic overcrowding. The term “basic service,” when used with reference to bays, refers to sites that are often flooded and rat-infested and lack suf- ficient facilities. The term “unauthorised site” refers to Travellers who are forced to live at the 14 Committee on Housing and Homelessness roadside due to a lack of access to private rented accommodation, social housing and Travel- ler-specific accommodation. These Travellers are, in effect, homeless, but they are excluded from Government statistics on homelessness. This is wholly unacceptable. Travellers who are homeless need to be categorised accordingly and their housing and accommodation needs must be met in a timely manner.

According to the 2013 report of the national Traveller accommodation consultative com- mittee, 361 Traveller families lived on “unauthorised sites,” 188 Traveller families lived on “basic service” bays, 182 families shared permanent halting sites, 17 families shared basic service bays or transient halting sites, and 663 Traveller families shared houses. This means that roughly 5,500, or 18.6%, of the Traveller population are in need of proper accommodation provision. If one uses the census 2011 figures, this would be the equivalent of 853,415 of the general population in need of housing, yet the Traveller accommodation situation has not been regarded as a housing crisis.

Recently there has been a significant decrease in the number of Traveller families living in private rented accommodation. Between 2013 and 2015, 237 Traveller families left private rented accommodation. This figure correlates with an increase of 200 Traveller families sharing houses and an increase of 173 families on unauthorised sites. It is clear that Traveller families are responding to the accommodation crisis by relocating to sites that are already overcrowded, unsafe and uninhabitable.

In order to address these issues, we recommend the establishment of a statutory Traveller agency with powers to approve and enforce local authority five-year accommodation plans; the introduction of a monitoring and evaluation framework with associated sanctions, ensuring full expenditure of funds allocated to local authorities for Traveller-specific accommodation; an increased provision and appropriate resourcing of accessible, suitable and culturally appropri- ate accommodation for Travellers and Roma; a reinstatement of the Traveller accommodation budget to 2008 levels, at a minimum of €40 million; a moratorium on evictions and on the use of the Housing (Miscellaneous) Provisions Act 2002 until the accommodation needs of all Travellers on the housing list have been met; the abandonment of the use of the terms “shar- ing,” “basic” services, and “unauthorised sites” in order to provide an accurate reflection of the housing and accommodation crisis; and the inclusion of Travellers in Government statistics on homelessness.

We thank the committee for its attention and the opportunity to discuss these matters further.

Chairman: I thank Ms Fay very much for her opening statement. I am going to take a num- ber of questions and she can then decide the order in which she wishes to answer them. The first question will be from me. The figures she quoted were based on Pavee Point’s report of 2013. Will she provide an overview of how matters stand now? She may not have the exact figures but perhaps she could outline the trend. She made the point that the figures quoted represented 5,500 people, or 18%. What is the current position?

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: I welcome our speakers. I tabled a parliamentary question on funding for Travellers and I received a reply yesterday which may be of assistance. It indicates that the allocation for 2016 is €5.5 million, which is an increase of €1.2 million on the 2015 al- location. Obviously, that is a positive development. I requested details for each local authority from 2013 onward so the figures are up to date. The reply indicates that a significant number of counties do not seem to have applied for funding, which is a matter of concern. If we have a national plan for assisting in Traveller accommodation, then I presume individual counties must 15 Pavee Point have plans and they would obviously place a demand on the Exchequer each year. If that is not happening despite the fact that there are Travellers within each of those communities, then it is a serious matter.

I apologise for the interference from my phone. Those present will understand why I have it with me. However, that is not the call I was expecting. I notice people are laughing. It is no laughing matter.

It appears that counties are not applying. We need to get the facts. It may not be a matter for us but I am of the view that the committee should insist that someone should have oversight in respect of every county with a plan. It may not be a matter for this committee, given the limited time available. However, it is not acceptable that Traveller accommodation needs are not being met at all in some counties despite the fact that there is an obligation to make provi- sion for those needs.

I wish to address another issue raised by the deputation. I live in County Louth. I was a member of Louth County Council in the past but I am not now. When the county council in Louth moved to evict Travellers from an illegal site, no prior notice was given and there was no opportunity to intervene and make the point the deputation has made. I fully support the point that there should be no evictions unless and until there is a proper acceptable place for people to go. That is key. I would make one proviso, however. The local authority had to spend ap- proximately €100,000 on the removal of waste from the site in question in Dundalk. That is a major cost. I have to acknowledge that this is an issue the council should not have to deal with. There is an issue here as well, but I am not lecturing or preaching. I support what the represen- tatives from Pavee Point said. There should be no evictions unless we have a better place to put people. That is critical. I believe this would create security of tenure, even if the places are not up to standard, and obviously these places are not. In any event, we should not move people until we have somewhere decent for them to go. This is a fundamental human rights issue and we must address it. No local authority should move against Travellers without notifying all elected representatives in the area in advance in order that we might have an opportunity to bring things to the notice of the authority or to make representations. They are human beings. There are children involved and they have basic human rights.

Chairman: Thank you, Deputy. I will come back to you.

Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: I thank Ms Fay for her presentation. Following on from what the Chairman said, do the witnesses have figures on the accommodation needs and wishes of the Traveller community? Are they looking at living on sites or in houses? Do we know exactly what the figures are for each type of accommodation?

Ms. Fay mentioned the statutory Traveller agency. Could she elaborate on whom she would see being part of that agency? On the underspend, were there reasons given for it at all? When there was a decrease in private rented, was that because of rents going up or were there other reasons?

The other issue, which is awful, is that of the public perception of Travellers and the views of certain people in our society on Travellers getting accommodation, whether in the form of a site or whatever. What can we do to address that massive problem? Thinking back to the last time I was in Pavee Point, it was a great celebration. The President, Mr. Higgins, was there. The culture - everything about Traveller life - is not getting out to the general population. What can we do to address that?

16 Committee on Housing and Homelessness Ms Ronnie Fay: Do any of my colleagues want to answer first?

Ms Mary Brigid McCann: In the area where I live and work I have huge contact with the Traveller community, and also I am a Traveller myself. We visit a lot of Traveller families in the area. Even in 2008 and before the recession came in, accommodation was always a problem within the Travelling community. People were coming to us looking for help and we did not have the power to repair or do anything for them. All we could do was report for them. Given the budgets in recent years and all the cuts, the situation is worse now.

The cut in rent allowance for those under 25 has a huge impact on Travellers, given that they marry much younger. That is not to say that people from the settled population do not go out and live and start families. There is overcrowding where I live myself. As Ms Fay outlined, Travellers are moving into private rented accommodation but they are not able to afford the rent. Landlords are putting up the rent. There is the isolation of Travellers in private rented and they face discrimination. They are being bullied and their children are not being allowed play with other children in the area. All that has a huge impact on Travellers’ mental health as well.

The underspend in some local authorities is also a problem. Travellers would have been one of the groups that did not benefit from the Celtic tiger when Ireland was awash with money. Then in recent budgets, with all the cuts that have been imposed on us, we were the people who were made suffer, along with many others as well.

In my area we have 50 houses but we have about 60 families, so overcrowding is a problem. Playgrounds are a huge problem as well. We do not have any playgrounds or any stuff like that. There is not enough Traveller-specific accommodation getting built. We are working with an extended family at the minute and they were looking for a group housing scheme but their needs have not been met. They are being kind of let into a housing estate. They are being phased in, with four or five doors left in between each of their houses. I do not think that is very fair to them if they want to live as an extended family. They are Travellers and their culture has to be respected as well. There is also a temporary site in our area that is well over 25 years there.

We did a mapping exercise a couple of weeks ago around the Carrickmines incident. Over- crowding was a problem, with electric wires just running everywhere and taking over, and there was overloading of sockets as well. People are coming to us looking for support but we are limited in what we can do. We have many Departments and every single one of them has a responsibility to all the people in Ireland but also to the Travelling community. When I look at a Traveller accommodation, in my experience that responsibility has not been met.

Another thing we face in our area is that, when young married couples come out of private rented and move into a caravan at the back of some of our houses, they are being charged €20 rent based on income. Even though it is a separate family with a separate income and a sepa- rate home, the income is assessed. We are charged €20 even though the young married couple might not have any facilities, water, or electrics. At a recent meeting, a person told me that a tenant is given the right to reside in a property and the supply of water and electricity is not his or her concern. The younger generation feel very disappointed that they are being charged for something but are not getting anything in return.

Ms Missie Collins: We visit families to promote health. Travellers are living in very bad conditions; some have no running water or showers for washing. I visit families in private ac- commodation. I know a mother of three children who is living in an apartment and is isolated from her extended family. She has a box room and one bedroom for her three children, herself

17 Pavee Point and her husband. She cries every time we visit her because she wants a small garden for the children to play in. She would welcome a site with group housing. Who knows better than me what such families need?

I went through the same experience 24 years ago when I moved to live in an area with only tigíns. I campaigned for the houses in which we live now, to which Ms McCann referred. Everybody has to take into consideration the fact that unless housing for Travellers improves, there will be more suicides and mothers suffering mental health breakdowns. People are crying out for help.

Ms Ronnie Fay: The national Traveller accommodation consultative committee was estab- lished under the auspices of the former Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, and, as the committee knows, it publishes annual accounts. The 2015 report is available online, and that is where I have pulled some of the most recent statistics from. The last published report I received was for 2013, which is why I referred to that report.

There are a number of issues. The data is presented in such a way as to hide the analysis and reality. Our argument is that it needs to be much clearer in order that people realise what is behind the data. We are calling for an ethnic identifier in schemes such as HAP and other administrative information systems so that we can determine where Travellers, Roma and other minority ethnic groups are living to determine whether they are over-represented in particular sectors or areas of provision. The overall data is quite problematic in terms of how it is pre- sented.

I have provided a background paper which is much more detailed, but I do not know wheth- er the committee has seen it. It needs to be recognised that the demographics of the Traveller community are significantly different from those of the general population. Some 42%of Travellers are under 15 years of age and only 3% are aged over 65 years. There is a significant youth population. If we do not make provision and plan for communities, we will be hostages to fortune in the future. It is a bad use of resources.

The all-Ireland Traveller health study found that the composition of Traveller households varies. Some 20% of Traveller women have had five or more children, compared to 2.6% of the general population. It is ironic that the youngest families who have the greatest number of children are living in the smallest spaces with the fewest facilities. That has a major impact on the quality of life of Travellers and their life expectancy and mortality and morbidity rates. That context needs to be taken into account.

I refer to funding. I attended the hearing of the Universal Periodic Review on Ireland in Geneva last week. The State report noted that there had been an increase in funding from €4 million to €5.5 million. That looks great, but what it did not say was that there had been a 90% decrease between 2008 and 2013. In our experience, funding was never really the problem, even though it may be a problem now because of the impact of austerity. Traditionally, the budgets were never spent. A total of 36% was unspent. We believe that is to do with political will, local prejudice, racism, objections by local residents and a lack of sanctions by-----

Chairman: I am sorry to interrupt, but could Ms Fay clarify whether she is saying that of the €4 million allocated, 36% is unspent?

Ms Ronnie Fay: No. Between 2008 and 2013 there was an underspend of 36% over those years.

18 Committee on Housing and Homelessness Chairman: Yes, cumulatively, over the period.

Ms Ronnie Fay: The reason we call for an agency is that local authorities are either unwill- ing or unable to make the provision. The Department dealing with the environment, commu- nity and local government oversees that and nothing happens. We are saying that something has to happen. If one looks at what happened in Northern Ireland at the time there was a lot of discrimination in terms of housing provision for Catholics compared to Protestants, the North- ern Ireland Housing Executive was set up. The issue was taken out of the hands of the local authorities and the executive looked after the needs of the marginalised Catholics at that time. We believe a similar initiative is needed at this point in time. We know it will not be the panacea for everything. Pavee Point is not calling specifically for a Traveller accommodation agency. The all-Ireland health study was published in 2010 but there is no action plan or new, revised Traveller health strategy. There is no strategy in place for the group in Ireland with the worst health inequalities. The cuts to education funding were minus 86%. Accommodation must be seen in the context of the broader cuts to the Traveller sector under the guise of austerity. Lots of political choices were made because Travellers are not visible in the Oireachtas. No Travel- ler is a Deputy and there has never been one. We have good champions, some of whom are in the room. We have called on the Taoiseach to consider appointing a Traveller representative to the incoming Oireachtas because it is only when one starts to meet people and to hear the reality that things change.

Members probably heard this week that there was a finding against Ireland in terms of the European Social Charter. We were delighted with that. It is a waste of our time and the State’s time to fight battles externally. We say let us work together to solve these issues. There are 36,000 Travellers in the Republic of Ireland. They would all fit in the Hogan Stand and yet it is seen as a major political issue. Much of that has to do with the status of Travellers. The ques- tion was asked about what could change in terms of public perception. The Government could acknowledge Travellers as a minority ethnic group. That would send a clear signal that this is a community that is indigenous to Ireland that needs to be respected, that has its own culture and way of life and should be recognised and respected for what it is. That alone would change the mindset, because what we see is the assimilationist mindset is still there.

Local authority staff think they will force Travellers into houses. That links into the ques- tion asked about Traveller-specific accommodation. Local authorities say the majority of Trav- ellers are looking for standard housing. If one is told it will take 20 years to get a group housing scheme and 40 years to get a transient site but a house is available, one could ask what box one will tick if one is a mother with seven children. The reality is that people often find it very hard to survive in those conditions. Members know better than I do, because they are on this committee and have been doing a lot of work in the area, that public policy in terms of social housing is to push people into the private rented sector. There was a huge change in that the number of Travellers in private rented accommodation grew from approximately 2% to 30% up to 2013. As Ms McCann has outlined, the problem is that often they were not there by choice. Significant issues arose in terms of accessing private rented accommodation in the first place. Most landlords did not want Travellers. As members are aware, they did not even want people on rent supplement. As Travellers are generally in receipt of rent supplement that was a double whammy. The Roma are being totally abused because they are often visible. People know they are Roma and they have a really hard time. Three, four and five families are living in very small spaces. What is happening is appalling and we would encourage the committee to look at the issue in more depth.

19 Pavee Point In terms of private rented accommodation, first, access was really difficult and, second, surviving in it was even more difficult because often Travellers would have had to bribe the landlord to give them the house by paying over the odds and then they would have to top up the monthly rent. People who are dependent on social protection found it hard to survive because they were giving so much. Young Travellers are getting into serious debt trying to pay bills, which causes a huge amount of stress. In terms of mental health issues, about which Ms Col- lins spoke, in Traveller culture when young Traveller women have babies, their aunts, sisters, cousins and nieces support them. They are not used to being left on their own, often living in high rise apartments behind gates. They often hide their identity because they are afraid if the landlord finds out they are Travellers, they will be evicted. They tell their children they cannot play with their cousins. They tell their extended family not to visit them and that they will visit them because they do not want their identity disclosed.

Major issues arise in terms of private rented accommodation. What we see from the statis- tics I got from the website yesterday is that approximately 200 families have left private rented accommodation but they are going back to their families, doubling up and living in very basic conditions. Something has to give in that regard.

The National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee, NTACC, commissioned a report in 2014 and one of the recommendations was to clarify and agree the demand for Traveller-specific accommodation. The NTACC was asked to develop an agreed annual count and national assessment of need for the development of local Traveller accommodation pro- grammes because what the local authorities say is in their area and what the Travellers know is actually the case is always a contentious issue. We need accurate data, and that comes back to the data mentioned earlier.

Ms Missie Collins: I have to ask why we are such a problem. It is not as though we dropped in over the past few years. We have been around for centuries. We have our own ways and our own culture, which is strong. To bring children up in living conditions their mammy and daddy are not happy with is the outstanding issue. It puts stress on the mammy and daddy and on the children.

To come back to the all-Ireland health study, we campaigned for that study. We first cam- paigned for a health strategy, which took us at least nine years. It should not have taken nine years when we see the state of Travellers’ health now. It was launched in 2005. We then cam- paigned for the all-Ireland health study, which took us another eight years. We carried out a tremendous piece of work on that, and it was done from one end of Ireland to the other. We found out all the answers, and when I held that report over my head on the day it was launched, in the presence of the then Minister, Mary Harney, and many others who were with her, I was the proudest woman in Ireland because I believed something would be done about our health, living conditions, education and so on. Has there been any movement on that since then? No. We will be waiting till death’s doing, and our people are dying younger. The suicide rate is seven times higher among Traveller men. How long more must we wait before we see a bit of civilisation in our own country?

Ms Mary Brigid McCann: As Ms Fay said, what came out of the all-Ireland health study is that we have a very young population. It is time to give back to the Traveller community because we are very disappointed action has not been taken arising from the study, given that it cost €1.4 million and has been sitting on a shelf in the Department of Health ever since.

Another issue that came out of the study was the support for family networks living in a 20 Committee on Housing and Homelessness group housing scheme or with extended family that we would not have if we lived in standard housing. From the all-Ireland health study we found also that there were only eight Travellers over the age of 85. If Departments do not act now to give the younger generation a better qual- ity of life, education and accommodation, and ensure there is less discrimination and better job opportunities, including giving the men better jobs, they will not live as long as those in the general population. We see the Government planning for those in the general population, who are living into their 80s and 90s, but Travellers only live to the age of 60 or 64. We need to act now. Many Traveller organisations have been talking about issues for a long time. Their mem- bers attended many committees where they raised many issues. Some progress has been made but more needs to be made if Travellers are to live as long as those in the general population.

Chairman: A number of Deputies are offering. I will ask them to contribute and come back to the witnesses.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion: While this has been answered to an extent, I seek clarifica- tion. Were a statutory Traveller agency to be set up, do the witnesses envisage it would deal with the issues of underspending and how some local authorities are not drawing down money at all? Do they envisage such an agency having a wider role than simply with regard to hous- ing? I represent the constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny and money has been put aside at local level for a Traveller horse project in recent budgets but that project is still not up and running. This issue is now entering its third year and although funding has been increased each year in the budget, nothing has been done about it.

The witnesses might also comment on their experience of the health and safety audit that was carried out because I have visited a halting site with a number of caravans that had under- gone a health and safety audit. I could not believe it would pass because there were such obvi- ous issues with wires in a highly damp environment in which young kids were staying. I seek Ms Fay’s opinion on the audit that was carried out because I could not believe it when the local authority told me the caravans had been inspected and had been passed as being safe. I cannot see how anyone could say it was a safe environment for children in particular. The witnesses might comment on that point.

Deputy Gino Kenny: I thank the witnesses for the presentation. It is absolutely shocking and unbelievable that the rate of suicide among Traveller men is seven times higher than the average. It is shocking when one hears this in black-and-white terms. If they get a chance, the witnesses might comment on how this issue can be dealt with as this is a national disgrace.

Deputy Michael Harty: To revert to the issue of Traveller health, the statistics provided by the witnesses are absolutely appalling and shocking. I refer to how only eight members of a community of 36,000 are over the age of 85, how only 3% of the population are over the age of 65 and to the rate of suicide. To what extent do the witnesses associate these statistics with the accommodation problems they face?

Chairman: The witnesses might like to respond to these questions, after which I will have another group of questions for them.

Ms Ronnie Fay: On the issue of the Traveller agency, we think it must drive matters. If one considers that 84% of Travellers are unemployed, there has never been a Traveller training or employment plan but when 14% or 18% of the general population were unemployed, it was like a major crisis and everyone was galvanised, rightly, to take action. However, the Travel- lers keep falling through the cracks. This is why we state that such an agency must consider

21 Pavee Point health, culture and accommodation. It can prioritise accommodation in its first year of opera- tion but our point is we have fabulous policies in place on Travellers but the big gap is between the policy and its implementation. While the policy is in place, there is a gap in implementa- tion and that is where it is falling asunder. That is why we thought that if there was an agency to drive it, to hold people to account and to share good practice, we would be hopeful it might bring about change.

As for the issue of fire safety, there were two elements to the initiative, which we wel- comed warmly. Moreover, we hope it now will be integrated into the work of the local Travel- ler accommodation consultative committees and the development of Traveller accommodation programmes in the future because it must not be perceived merely as a crisis measure and must be sustainable. One suggestion we have put forward is for a core module in the primary health care programmes to be on health and fire safety because programmes in this regard have worked for many years and at Christmas and Hallowe’en, fire safety alerts and so on always have been carried out. We were disappointed because we had higher expectations and as the Deputy rightly noted, they consisted of limited visual audits in which someone walked onto the site and looked around. We would suggest it is a starting point but should not be an endpoint and that a more thorough process is needed. However, the second part of the initiative was the development of Traveller fire safety awareness training. That has been more successful and has been particularly successful when it has been rolled out and run in partnership with Traveller organisations. The fire service has been very open but the problem often has been with local authorities. As the initiative was being organised through the local authorities, there were gaps because a local authority might ring a site in the morning to say it wanted the people there to go to a particular place. It was totally ridiculous and highly disrespectful. It was as though no one had anything else to do and that people’s time is not important. It was also a lost opportunity not to work through the Traveller community development programmes because they, and the primary health care programmes, would provide a mechanism and have the best relationship with Travellers. If one wants to be effective, therefore, one should talk to the people who are affected and give them advice.

As regards accommodation, the National Traveller Health Strategy stated:

There is little doubt that the living conditions of Travellers are probably the single great- est influence on health status. Stress, infectious disease, including respiratory disease, and accidents are all closely related to the Traveller living environment. It is clear that an im- mediate improvement in the living conditions of Travellers is a prerequisite to the general improvement of health status.

That is from the National Traveller Health Strategy. The All-Ireland Traveller Health Study, which was published in 2010, undertaken by the Departments of health both here and in Northern Ireland and done by University College Dublin, stated: “What we can say is that the better accommodated the Traveller family, the better the health status.” There is a clear link, therefore, between the accommodation and health situations. That is why we are so disap- pointed at the inaction since the publication of the All-Ireland Traveller Health Study. We think it was a missed opportunity to build on the momentum. Suicide accounts of 11% of all Traveller deaths, which is a very large percentage. We are disappointed because before the national suicide prevention strategy, Connecting for Life, was published, we made a submission to it highlighting certain matters. We ended up with one sentence which referred to Travellers and other vulnerable groups. That is very disappointing. They talk about evidence-based policy making, yet the evidence is that 11% of Traveller deaths

22 Committee on Housing and Homelessness arise from suicide. We felt that aspect should have been given greater priority and targeting.

Each county has to develop a local implementation plan and we are calling for Travellers to be represented on those, given the suicide profile. We are also seeking an ethnic identifier, so that we will know what the outcomes are and where issues arise. From the All-Ireland Travel- ler Health Study we know that there is an excess number of Traveller deaths compared to the general population. Cancer, respiratory disease or heart disease do not attack Travellers differ- ently from anybody else. However, we know that there is discrimination in getting access to services, and also in the quality of service that Travellers receive. That has been documented independently in the All-Ireland Traveller Health Study.

There are 134 extra Traveller deaths every year. If one compares Travellers to the general population, there should be 54 deaths annually, but there are 188. This is due to institutional discrimination and racism. That is the reality. People are being forced to live in really bad conditions. It is bad for one’s health to be born poor or to become poor. That has all been documented. We see a Traveller community that is most marginalised and one can see it in their health, life expectancy and mortality rates.

Chairman: We have another series of questions for Ms Fay and I will come back to her. I call Deputy Ó Broin.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: I thank the witnesses for their presentation. For those of us who represent constituencies with significant Traveller communities, we spend a lot of time working on exactly the issues that Ms Fay has outlined. We are well aware of them but it is important to have them on the record here.

I wish to express support for Traveller agencies, specifically in ensuring that local authori- ties meet their statutory obligations. Some local authorities have a better record than others. If we were to have such an agency, or if this committee were to recommend such a thing, it would be important to have a carrot and stick approach. Local authorities have this function and in an ideal situation they should get on with that job. Where they do not meet those functions within specific timelines, however, this agency would have the authority to step in. Through emer- gency powers already on the Statute Book - which, for example, the Minister used for planning and procurement in the rapid-builds in Poppintree - the agency and managers could go over the heads of a local authority and councillors where they do not meet their obligations. If it was done in that focused way, most local authorities would probably start moving much more quickly on fulfilling their own obligations. That is an argument that is almost beyond making at this stage.

I have a couple of questions. Given the level of need out there and the poor condition of many Traveller-specific sites of a range of types, if the budget was returned to €40 million, even phased in over a short period, would that be enough? I know it is the minimum requirement but what are Pavee Point’s thoughts on this? As I work with many Travellers in the Dublin mid-west community, I know there is a section of the Traveller community which, by choice, wants to live in private rented or council accommodation. There are people who are left with no choice. However, there are those who want to make that choice too. I am acutely aware that this group is having particular difficulties with the current rental crisis. They are experiencing the rental crisis like everybody else, but the additional barriers they experience in seeking alter- native accommodation are higher. Has Pavee Point any specific recommendation on this which the committee could examine?

23 Pavee Point The programme for Government contains 62 recommendations on housing, none of which relates to Travellers or Traveller accommodation. Will Pavee Point put on record its thoughts on this? While there are clearly broader issues such as health, etc, this committee’s function is to make a report in a short time to the Dáil and to the Minister specifically on housing issues and to find ways of alleviating the most immediate housing needs of all sections of society, includ- ing those of Travellers.

Deputy Mary Butler: Like my other colleagues, I thank Pavee Point for attending the committee. It was one of the most powerful, honest and raw submissions we have received. It has certainly laid a marker for every member.

After the tragic circumstances last October when ten members of the Traveller community, including two babies, lost their lives, has there been any immediate improvement in accommo- dation for the Traveller community? There was such an outrage across the country at the time. Did that outrage die off after a couple of weeks with the Traveller community left mourning the loved ones it lost?

As a new Deputy from Waterford, it is obvious the political will to deal with this issue is not there. I am not hinting at any one party but, across the board, the political will does not seem to be there. This will have to seriously change.

We all watch television programmes relating to the Traveller community, such as “Big Fat Gypsy Weddings”. After listening to Pavee Point, they certainly do not portray what Traveller life is like in Ireland or in England. There is a perception that many Travellers are very wealthy by focusing on the big weddings, the christenings and the outfits. This is not doing the Traveller community in Ireland any favours.

Chairman: Pavee Point recommended the establishment of a statutory Traveller agency with powers to approve and enforce local authority five-year Traveller accommodation plans. Do the five-year Traveller accommodation plans done by local authorities meet the real needs of the community? When one tries to enforce a plan that is flawed to start with, one is not going to get to where one wants. Do we need a national audit rather than just the sum of individual local authorities?

Ms Mary Brigid McCann: The “Big Fat Gypsy Weddings” programme did not do us any favours, particularly given we have young girls wanting to get married and go out and spend on dresses. I remember last year I was phoned for a radio interview about first communions and confirmations. In the pre-interview, I was talking about discrimination when it comes to celebrations, such as how we could not get a function room and other problems. I explained the extended family is very good to us when organising communions, confirmations and there was a good sense of support among the community. The interviewer said that, while I was good on other subjects, this was not what they wanted on communions and confirmations. She wanted me to turn around to say we spend between €5,000 and €6,000 on such a thing. The reality is that many Travellers cannot afford to spend such amounts. Supplementary welfare, including confirmation and first communion grants, has been cut. Many people, not just Travellers, in the area I know depended on them. They are now gone so people must go to moneylenders to get the few euro to get their children organised. When you have a family, you know the struggle you go through. Children want and want and never give. It is only what you can give them, so it is a struggle. I have experienced it. The programme certainly did not do us any favours and did not show the real-life stories of not being able to book a hotel or a function room. There are many other things out there. That is not what we want. A few years ago, a Minister spoke about 24 Committee on Housing and Homelessness lavish communions and the grants were stopped. It did not send out a very good message. I do not approve of them. They did not do us any favours as mothers.

Mr. Eamonn McCann: We welcome the additional resources this year, but when one breaks it down into concrete terms, there are 30 units. This is based on the chartered surveyors’ estimate. One would have 30 units for €5.5 million. In our paper, Ms Fay referred to a need for 5,500 units, so it would take about 170 years to catch up at the current rate.

The five-year plans from 2000 to 2004 and from 2005 to 2008 dealt with legacy issues high- lighted in the task force report of 1995. By 2008, we had caught up to some extent in respect of some legacy issues. However, it did not take account of the natural growth that was taking place.

In respect of Travellers’ experiences after the Carrickmines tragedy, people lose their iden- tity when we call it “Carrickmines.” We are talking about the Connors, Lynch and Gilbert families and the grieving they are going through. It is not helpful to put it in the context of generalised statements. I work in Wicklow so I know the situation. Across the country, there is a mixture relating to local authorities. Some local authorities returned the funding while others did not do so. Some use the full funding while others try to get additional funding. It would be the same with the Connors, Lynch and Gilbert families. On one hand, the outpouring of grief was fantastic and they received a lot of support, but some hotels closed, and we cannot close our eyes to that either.

Chairman: Deputy Canney had a comment.

Deputy Seán Canney: I apologise for my absence but I had to step out of the meeting. I compliment the witnesses on their forthright presentation, which was enlightening. There are a good number of Travellers in Tuam, Athenry and Ballinasloe in east Galway, where I am from. There is a place in Tuam called Brú Bhríde that works fairly well. Have the witnesses examples or models of things that work well for them so that we could model the good things and try to replicate them across communities? I do not need to know them now. I was particularly taken with the presentation from Ms Collins, for which I compliment her.

Chairman: I thank the Deputy and apologise for that interruption.

Ms Ronnie Fay: Deputy Ó Broin is correct that not all Travellers want to live on group housing schemes or on halting sites and the issue he has raised is choice. They need to have a real choice and one of the problems is they have not had it, which is why there was a increase in private rented accommodation from 2% of Travellers to 27% between 2002 and 2013. There has since been an exodus because of costs, racism, mental health and children’s issues. That is not a choice, no more than it is for the general community. We encourage the Government to have a public social housing programme and build homes. We also encourage the inclusion of a clause in respect of community gain. If Traveller accommodation is being built, given the high rate of unemployment, could a percentage of Travellers not be employed as labourers, landscapers and so on? These measures, which are relevant and possible and which would give added value, should be examined.

I was on record as saying regarding Carrickmines that we had gone from bouquets to boul- ders within a week, which should not be forgotten. There was significant solidarity, which was important because it showed Travellers that people care. Within a week, a small number of people, and it is always a minority, objected to the development of an emergency facility for

25 Pavee Point them there. Goodwill does not last long and we want institutional mechanisms that will guar- antee Travellers their human rights and protect them from discrimination, racism and hostility.

The Deputy is dead right regarding the programme for Government that we are disappointed about the lack of visibility in it of Travellers and Roma. That is not unrelated to the fact that they are not visible in most political parties and there is no public representative from those backgrounds at national level. We had some in Tuam, for example, at urban district council lev- el but these people do not get elected. It is difficult when one considers the Traveller popula- tion and how dispersed it is. That will not happen without affirmative action and, therefore, we would like quotas. It is ironic that in Romania, for example, seats are reserved in parliament for Roma. Roma representation is, therefore, guaranteed. These issues could also be addressed.

With regard to the question about good examples, the Civil Service internship scheme was wonderful but the problem was it was only for six months and when it ended, that was it. That could be mainstreamed. It is not rocket science. Much of this is documented but it has to be put into practice.

In one of our recommendations, we propose that the Housing Agency should undertake a specific study of the current Traveller accommodation crisis, to be published by August 2017, and to carry out an independent national assessment of the state of Traveller-specific accom- modation. I would hope that would get us over the “We said, you said” interaction and local authorities hiding figures. There are many recommendations and I only highlighted some we hope might address the issue.

Our big concern is that Travellers are increasingly becoming more segregated and there is increased ghettoisation of Travellers. I recall when I first started working with Travellers in 1984, there was a football pitch and a playground in Avila Park, Finglas. There is nothing but houses there now. The proposal is to build houses on every spare bit of land, which can lead to all sorts of conflict, including inter-family conflict, because incompatible families are often forced together. That is a hostage to fortune.

The resources that were wasted on the evictions in Dundalk, for example, could be put into positive developments. Let us get over this. It is not insurmountable. Traveller organisations at national and local level are ready, willing and able to work with the State. We need to be given the opportunity.

The programme for Government refers to the development of the national Traveller-Roma inclusion strategy, which is part of a European framework, and we are hopeful that something will come out of that but that cannot be seen to let everybody else off the hook. The Depart- ment of Health has to produce a new national Traveller health strategy. It has not allowed the Traveller Health Advisory Committee to meet since October 2012. It is disgraceful. In terms of accommodation, we need the agency and we hope the committee will recommend that. It is not an accommodation agency, it is an agency within its brief and it could maybe focus on ac- commodation in its first year of being. We need stuff in health, education and across the board.

I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity this morning and I encourage it to look at the Roma issue in its deliberations. I remind people that at the end of the day we are talking about travellers as human beings who have a right to human rights. That is all we are asking for - basic human rights.

Chairman: I thank Ms Fay. That concludes this section. I thank the members of Pavee

26 Committee on Housing and Homelessness Point for their attendance here today and for their presentations, including their submission to the committee. I reiterate that this is a very short lived committee - a couple of months. It is due to report in the middle of June and its primary focus is housing and homelessness. We are very conscious from the contributions the witnesses have made today that the housing and homelessness issue facing travellers has consequential effects in terms of health, mental health, suicide and so forth. The witnesses made those points very vividly to the committee here today. I thank them for their presentations.

Sitting suspended at 12.37 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.

Tiglin Challenge

Chairman: If members or witnesses have a mobile phone or 3G or 4G device, it should be either switched off or put into flight mode. Apart from disrupting the meeting, the signal may interfere with the broadcast signal.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defama- tion Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the com- mittee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. The open- ing statement submitted by the witnesses will be published on the committee website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I am pleased to welcome the representatives from Tiglin Challenge, Mr. Aubrey McCarthy, Mr. Phil Thompson and Mr. Niall Murphy. The full submission has been received and circu- lated to members. I understand Mr. McCarthy has an opening statement and I will invite col- leagues to ask a number of questions arising from that. Mr. McCarthy’s colleagues should feel free to enter the discussion at any stage, as they are more than welcome to do so.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: On behalf of the board of Tiglin and on my own behalf, I express appreciation to the committee for inviting us to meet today. As the Chairman mentioned, I am accompanied by the chief executive officer, Mr. Philip Thompson, and a former service user, Mr. Niall Murphy. The board and management of Tiglin very much welcome the work of this committee and I have been following it on the Oireachtas television channel. It is encouraging to see it.

At the outset, I must point out that Tiglin deals with a particular cohort of the homeless population. We operate a homeless outreach café known as the No Bucks café. Some members are aware of our work and the café can be seen around town. It is a big green coach converted to a café-restaurant type of idea. On Monday it can be found in Dún Laoghaire, on Tuesday it is Ballymun, on Wednesday it is in Bray, and I drive on Thursday and Friday nights, when it is on O’Connell Street, right beside the Spire. It is interesting to point out that 78% of service users who present to the No Bucks café and to our walking teams in the city have some form of

27 Tiglin Challenge addiction. With our clients, it seems that homelessness and addiction go hand in hand. Some- times, homelessness can bring about addiction and sometimes addiction can bring about home- lessness. It is also interesting that the café goes out in the evenings and that, therefore, we are dealing with a cohort of people - perhaps rough sleepers, etc. - which has not been catered for. Tiglin also operates residential centres for both men and women. We have a residential centre for men in Tiglin, Ashford, County Wicklow, and a women’s centre in Brittas Bay. A total of 72%, three out of four, of the Tiglin residents have experienced homelessness during their ad- diction. When a person we meet on the street goes through detox and is referred through vari- ous referrals, which our CEO will explain later, and comes to the centre we put them through a quite rigorous 14-module programme. The longevity is quite important. It is all in Tiglin, which is up in the Wicklow Mountains. It is a special place. We then have a step-down ap- proach, which includes transitional housing.

Fr. Peter McVerry and other campaigners have said for years that it is a widely accepted fact that rehabilitation will solve the addiction problems of individuals. We know from listening to the people who have made presentations to this committee that housing is an obvious way to solve the homelessness problem. However, for those whose addiction has bound them into homelessness, residential rehabilitation becomes a necessary and successful exit pathway as it addresses the areas that tied them to a homeless lifestyle. While everybody who is homeless is clearly not in addiction and residential treatment is not necessary for every person in addic- tion, Tiglin has found that when a service user is bound by both homelessness and addiction the best way to solve it is through residential rehabilitation care. This cohort of people must be removed from their surroundings to attain a chance of getting clean and sober. Our experience has shown that the longer one keeps the individual who is homeless and addicted engaged, the better the outcome.

Tiglin is not out to solve the homelessness problem, but we are interested in helping those people who come to us for our service. Motivation, determination and people who take an inter- est and believe in the person are just a few of the many factors that are stimuli for entering into a sober life. Imagine being without the security of a home and a family, perhaps in poor health and perhaps with a scarred history due to one’s addiction. How would one’s determination hold up? The people we deal with do not know where they will sleep each night, whether they will be safe, whether they will make their methadone appointment in the morning or whether they will overdose on their next hit. Imagine what would inspire their motivation.

As we have seen in the committee’s proceedings over the past number of weeks, homeless- ness has changed in recent years. Many people who are homeless have nothing to do with addiction. However, this committee was established because the situation has reached crisis point. Hotels, bed and breakfast accommodation and so forth have been filled because of the great need. Many of the people who are using those services work and have a good social structure around them, but the rising rental market has priced them out of it and the supply has not met demand. Imagine, then, how the doubly disadvantaged are affected by this situation. By “doubly disadvantaged” I mean people who are homeless and also have some form of life- controlling problem or addiction. While they are entitled to rent allowance, the obvious rav- ages of addiction and life on the streets are often clear to a landlord, so they are met with many excuses for not receiving the tenancy.

There are some who will obtain sobriety by an active care plan being put in place which provides housing, tenancy support and outpatient or day service rehabilitation. However, for the vast majority who are homeless and chronically addicted we believe strongly that inpatient

28 Committee on Housing and Homelessness residential support options are required. They must be removed from their surroundings and live in a sober community where professional skills such as counselling, therapy and medical interventions are addressed and educational opportunities are explored. I hope that some of the members will talk to Niall after my presentation and hear what worked for him. In Tiglin’s ex- perience, the great work of residential rehabilitation hinges on two main factors. One is that the person is properly prepared for drug-free rehabilitation. The second is that after the residential rehabilitation is completed, the residential after-care is in place to help the person step back into daily living. As part of that we also supply transitional housing.

We believe a full wrap-around service for two years is necessary in many of these situa- tions in order to exit homelessness and addiction successfully. This is exactly what we do at Tiglin. Tiglin is seeing people successfully exit homelessness through long-term rehabilitation and support housing after treatment. We partner with Wicklow County Council in offering a transitional house in Arklow for people who come from any accredited residential rehabilita- tion facility. It gives them a transitional house, so that they can take a step back into a sober lifestyle. We also offer transitional housing to 35 individuals in Greystones, which works very well. We have 30 male beds and 12 female beds for residential rehabilitation.

When I was preparing this presentation, I was thinking of people I could bring with me and I wrote down names. I came up with 140 names of individuals who have been homeless and in chaotic addiction but are now back in jobs, education, housing and have found new lives beyond addiction and homelessness. That is phenomenal and it is brilliant to be able to say it. Mr. Niall Murphy is the lucky one here today. He had been housed many times due to his homelessness but it was only when his addiction was finally addressed that his housing needs were catered for. He is now back in work after completing his education, is paying taxes, re- cently got married - so is more of a success in that respect than me at the moment - and he has obtained a mortgage for a new house. I hope members will be able to sense something of Mr. Murphy when he talks to them.

The solution I propose is very simple and I hope the committee will take it on board. The housing allowance that the homeless person is entitled to should be used in the rehabilitation treatment of that individual. Entitlements before treatment are not the same as entitlements during treatment. This proposal is for people who have an entitlement but are not able to access that entitlement for the duration of the treatment. If their partner is using that entitlement then they do not have an entitlement. The people concerned do not have the capacity to use their entitlement. Residential rehabilitation can be used if we give them the capacity to use it. If we do this, we then have a fighting chance of solving the homelessness and the addiction problem for that person.

I am delighted to say that 78% of people who exit Tiglin are sober today and are working, in education, on CE schemes, and so on. However, Tiglin, alongside Merchants Quay’s St. Francis Farm facility, Coolmine and other places, does not qualify to accept rent allowance as it is classed as a rehabilitation institution. This means that if Niall Murphy, who is homeless and in addiction and is entitled to rent allowance, wishes to come in to the likes of Tiglin or any other rehabilitation centre, he loses this entitlement and the Tiglin staff have to fundraise, through bag-packing, marathons, etc., to raise the costs of his residential treatment, which is rather unfair.

It was clear at the time Mr. Murphy came in, as he will share with members, that he did not have the skills to take a home from the State. He was given housing by the State, but he was not able to keep that housing because his own addiction came first. He had an entitlement to a 29 Tiglin Challenge home but he had no home. People like him get the money to stay in a hotel, but if they go into a treatment centre they do not get the money. Is it realistic that a rehabilitation facility would voluntarily give accommodation to a person for up to a year without State support? The solu- tion is clear: allow the individual to use that housing allowance, which is their entitlement, for their residential treatment. I do not mean that just in respect of Tiglin, but for all accredited residential rehabilitation centres. This costs the State not one cent extra and with us it would give a 78% chance of turning around this individual’s life, so that homelessness and addiction are no longer an issue for that person.

Chairman: If the members bear with us, we will give Mr. Niall Murphy an opportunity to tell his story and then we will take questions.

Mr. Niall Murphy: I fell into drug addiction when I was around 26 years of age. In the 1990s there was a rave scene in Dublin and I got caught up in it. I found that gradually over the years, the addiction turned very ugly. I tried to stop but I could not. The drug addiction progressed into harder drugs like cocaine and heroin. I was living in a house in Crumlin with three others but because of my addiction I was involved in a lot of anti-social behaviour. I was shoplifting from a local supermarket, leaving syringes around the house and so forth. The land- lord found out about it and he kicked me out onto the street. That was where my homelessness started.

Obviously, when I became homeless, things got a lot more chaotic. During those years of homelessness I lived in homeless shelters and suffered many near-fatal overdoses. I remember being rushed to hospital in an ambulance at least six times during that period. There was a local centre run by Focus Ireland which helped homeless people and on a couple of occasions I went there. The centre had an information sheet with the names of landlords who would accept rent allowance. I got lucky at one stage and got a small bedsit in Terenure but I only lasted about five weeks there because the root issue was not being dealt with. I was still using drugs and it got to the stage where I could not pay my rent and I ended up homeless again. That happened again about a year later when I got a place in Rathgar. I lasted around the same amount of time there - four to five weeks - and ended up homeless again.

Eventually, I heard about the Tiglin programme in 2008. I went into Tiglin and did the 16-month programme. When I got to the end of the programme, Tiglin provided me with an after-care house where I lived for two years before moving back to living in society. I went to college in UCD for two years, got married and today I have a mortgage. I have all of that because I went through treatment. I could not get out of homelessness until I addressed my addiction problem. I did that in Tiglin and today everything is different. Everything has com- pletely changed.

Chairman: I thank Mr. Niall Murphy for his testimony. He is to be complimented on his success story, as are those in Tiglin who worked with him. It is very encouraging to hear his story. The first Deputy who has indicated is Deputy Durkan.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I welcome and congratulate our visitors. It is clear that they have a thorough knowledge of the subject matter with which they deal, and with which we all deal every day. They have an understanding of the issues which is exemplary and I congratulate them on their approach.

Does Tiglin have approved housing body status? As the Chairman knows, I am not a par- ticular friend of the approved housing bodies-----

30 Committee on Housing and Homelessness Chairman: That is not news, Deputy.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: -----because I have always held the view that they were the cause-----

(Interruptions).

Chairman: I ask Deputy Ó Broin to refrain from upsetting Deputy Durkan

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: However, I am a strong supporter of the kind of support be- ing provided by Tiglin. The situation with regard to rough sleepers cannot be resolved just by providing an emergency bed for one night at a time. There must be some continuity of care, as Tiglin has proven.

Has Tiglin reached a point where it cannot cope with the number of inquiries it receives? Has it assessed and quantified the need into the future? To what degree can Tiglin send on those clients who do not need ongoing treatment or residential care to the local authorities or approved housing bodies? How does Tiglin manage those clients who can survive, albeit with supervision? I also wish to ask about the manner in which Tiglin makes contact with its clients. I would argue that Tiglin is uniquely suited to dealing with a specific niche in the market, not the whole housing requirement, that local authorities cannot deal with and have been incapable of dealing with simply because they are not geared towards doing it. I extend my appreciation to the centre for what it does because that is a crucial part of the market which needs to be dealt with and cannot be dealt with by groups other than people like those in Tiglin who specialise in that area.

Chairman: I call Deputy Ó Broin.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I have worked with a number of clients from the facility in Brittas Bay post their departure and we have spoken about the housing needs of the constituency. They speak very highly of their time there. I wish to put three questions to the witnesses. First, does Tiglin receive any Government funding for its work? I am interested to know if it is in receipt of any State funding. Second, its proposal on rent supplement seems eminently sensible and the amount of money it would require from the State would be very small, given the small number of people we are talking about. Has Tiglin ever had a communication from the Department of Social Protection at a senior level or from the current or former Minister for Social Protection as to what the resistance would be? Again, it would seem to be an eminently sensible and affordable proposition and one I would support. Third, an issue I have encountered in the constituency, not unlike Mr. Niall Murphy’s story, concerns people who are living through addiction and homelessness. They go into residential rehabilitation following which they are still homeless. The only emergency homeless accom- modation or relatively low threshold emergency accommodation in, say, Dublin city centre would have a relatively high volume of active drug use in the dormitory accommodation to which a person who has had a detox will not want to go. It forces them to sleep rough and cre- ates another cycle. Have the witnesses any recommendations as to how that specific difficulty for people coming out of residential rehabilitation could be addressed that we could put to the Dáil and the Minister when we make our report?

Chairman: Before I revert to Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Thompson, I remind Deputy Ó Broin that at the private session this morning we outlined the forthcoming witnesses for the next

31 Tiglin Challenge couple of weeks, one of which is the Department of Social Protection. The issue he has raised is one we may want to probe with it. I call Mr. McCarthy.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: In response to Deputy Durkan’s question as to whether we are an approved housing body, organically we have grown into providing transitional housing, not because we ever wanted to but because people such as Mr. Niall Murphy, who have exited the programme, have found it difficult to get back on their feet. Wicklow County Council has approached us many times to take on a transitional house for them. In the meantime we have applied for housing approval to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. That is in train and is pending.

We had a graduation last week and one of the guys who graduated was homeless and lived on the beach in Wicklow. He told his story at the graduation. He said he went into Wicklow County Council and told those in the offices he had nowhere to go. He said he needed treat- ment, that he was in addiction but was homeless and Wicklow County Council telephoned Tiglin. Wicklow County Council saw that this guy could get help in Tiglin. When he came in, we had problems because he was very moody, as he said himself, and he did not want to fill in any forms. It turns out the guy was illiterate; he could not read or write. He was in addiction. He was in chaos. He stood up last Saturday and told his story. He is now pursuing a FETAC level six course. He told us all how his smart phone has changed his life. He is now texting and sending e-mails and so on. That has happened organically. Wicklow County Council and others have seen what we do and are there to support our application for transitional housing.

Mr. Phil Thompson: Deputy Ó Broin asked if we get State funding. Approximately one third of our operational budget for the residential work at Tiglin comes mainly through two drug task forces. In recent years we have established links with the Department of Social Protec- tion and have brought in community employment in two forms, in one of which we run a day service programme. I will come back to that because the Deputy mentioned other ways to help people as they exit treatment. The other arm of the community employment is in the residen- tial component. We are here to talk about homelessness, but that is tied into addiction in other ways. Mr. McCann referred to a guy coming in who had educational difficulties. Education and health are taken care of within the residential facility at Tiglin. Community employment has been a great way to upskill people, give them back confidence and help them to exit treat- ment with some form of a CV. We have also partnered with Carlow IT, which has brought an education element into our programme. People can leave Tiglin now with a level 6 qualifica- tion. It is a wraparound approach. Mr. McCann spoke of a two year wraparound service. The journey or rehabilitation starts the moment a person asks for help. That can start well outside the bounds of a residential treatment programme. It can start within the chaos of addiction while on the streets, and those people need detoxification or other healthcare issues sorted out prior to entry into programmes such as those at Tiglin. The step down into transitional ac- commodation afterwards is equally important. We noticed that sometimes when people leave after their treatment and their education they may not be successful in securing employment or other accommodation. That is why we established a day programme - so that a certain type of individual who needed that extra bit of support would have somewhere to go during the day. Continuing educational supports and other housing options could be introduced at that point. The community employment scheme linked them with other employment options. That is the whole wraparound approach to the journey from the streets back to aftercare, and it takes time.

Chairman: Could Mr. Thompson please answer one technical question? Apologies to Dep- uty Ó Broin. Mr. Thompson referred to Tiglin receiving a certain amount of State funding and

32 Committee on Housing and Homelessness mentioned that fundraising was also undertaken. Am I correct in stating that Tiglin is a not-for- profit organisation running at a deficit, which is made up through fundraising?

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: Yes.

Chairman: If the witnesses do not mind, could they clarify how much, on an annual basis, Tiglin raises through fundraising?

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: Between €300,000 and €400,000. Even at Christmas we had judges from the District Court bag-packing for us at Tesco in Naas. People know what we do, they appreciate it and they get behind it. We receive referrals from the State bodies, councils, probation services and others. Deputy Ó Broin spoke about funding. The east coast drugs task force funds five beds. At the moment we have eight to ten people from the east coast region. The south inner city local drugs task force supplies the funding for three staff members and for other outreach work. I am a voluntary chairman; I have a business in Deputy Durkan’s area, and my job is to fundraise for Tiglin and push it. However, there is only so much that voluntary bodies can do, and I think I have gone around everybody’s door with a begging bowl. They are sick of seeing me coming. That can only go on for so long. In order to see the likes of Niall and people like him getting their lives back on track, this was my idea for how the State can come on board without any further cost. The committee asked if we had put this proposal forward to the Department of Social Protection. We did, and I put it to a previous Minister of State, the former Deputy Alex White. I received correspondence in reply to my proposal which covered two elements: rent allowance and the GP methadone allowance. I was told, very politely, that the more people were coming off methadone or drugs in Tiglin, the more people the State had who were going on drugs, and therefore there was no real cost saving.

Chairman: I will allow Deputy Ó Broin to finish his point.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: I hope the judges put something in the bags they were packing as well as shaking the bucket.

With regard to Tiglin’s waiting list, how many beds are there between the two residential centres and what kind of waiting list operates?

Mr. Phil Thompson: With regard to bed numbers, as Mr. McCann said, there are 30 for men and up to ten for women. However, that does not include the aftercare step-down service, which consists of another 12 beds. There is always a waiting list for residential treatment and we find that it is very important to try to motivate people who are on a waiting list. If one is on a waiting list one needs to look at other options. While we would like to strike while the iron is hot and take a person in within a couple of weeks of them asking to come, that is not always possible. Currently the waiting list can climb anywhere from 35 people - which is the lowest I have seen it in the last few years - to more than 100 people.

However, we always try to offer other help. There may be another place with a shorter list. It is not like we would try to hold a person until a bed comes up. We are always looking for other options. We also have two workers whose role it is to help in the community setting. One of the things they would have done would have been that very thing, that is, to look at options of waiting.

Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan: It is good to see the delegates again. I had the opportunity to go to Tiglin and I have been on its bus several times, so I know at first hand the work it does, the way it reaches out to people and the dignified way it does it. It is done in a respectful way 33 Tiglin Challenge for those who are homeless and in addiction. On addiction and capacity, I know Tiglin’s physi- cal building has capacity for more. What would it take to do that? That question relates more to addiction rather than homelessness.

After the transitional housing, quite a number of people who are in recovery can go back to their family of origin. However, some cannot. What sort of support is Tiglin getting for hous- ing for them?

Are those who come into residential care who are living in local authority housing, par- ticularly if they are on their own and going to be in a residential setting for over a year, under pressure to surrender the housing, in the hope of getting it back, or can they hold onto it? That was an issue at other times.

Another question relates to links with prisoners, that is, people coming out of prison, wheth- er they come out addicted or were trying to battle their addiction while in prison. Does Tiglin have connections with them?

I know Tiglin has a mixture of nationalities availing of the service. It might be an idea to let us know the range of people - not just Irish, but other nationalities - with whom Tiglin works.

Chairman: Thank you, Deputy O’Sullivan. I call Deputy Coppinger.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: I welcome the delegates to the committee and welcome the fact that anyone would do work among addicts and would help with regard to homelessness. However, I want to ask about Tiglin’s ethos, because other Deputies asked if Tiglin was seeking to be a housing body. Obviously, Tiglin is also seeking a form of State subsidy. I, therefore, think it is legitimate to ask the following. I know Tiglin has a very strong Christian ethos and on its website it states that those in Tiglin believe literally in the Bible and that the Bible is the inspired and only infallible and authoritative written word of God. That is fine. I represent people of all religions and none, but I am wondering how that can impact on Tiglin’s work with homeless people who may not be religious and alcohol or drug addicts who feel that a lot of the only therapeutic options are linked with a religious ethos in Ireland, and not just in Ireland, tra- ditionally. Are there any non-religious alternatives? What proportion of those who go through Tiglin’s programme become Christians? The graduation ceremony takes place in Nazarene Church in Greystones.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: No.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: Okay, it does not. However, there is reference to a literal belief in the Bible. We all know what a literal belief in the Bible can mean. In terms of gay people, it could mean that Tiglin would have not a good attitude to gay people who might be homeless or addicts. I have to raise these questions if Tiglin is seeking Government funding.

On their attitude to drugs, do the delegates think drugs should be decriminalised? I would be interested to hear their views.

Donations have been raised for the organisation in the Dublin City Business Improvement District. Many boxes are to be found there. It has also been reported; there was a newspaper article in The Star. However, Dublin City Business Improvement District has also opposed methadone clinics being sited in its areas and has called for them to be moved out of the city centre. I raise the issue because it would seem it raises money for Tiglin but, also, opposes methadone clinics being accessible for people. It has also taken a very strong stance about what

34 Committee on Housing and Homelessness it calls organised begging. We all know that a lot of homeless people are addicts - not a lot, but a certain proportion - and may resort to begging. I do not know what the delegates’ attitude to that would be.

Chairman: I wish to make one point of clarification. The proposal put forward is not spe- cific to this organisation. It was for voluntary residential groups in general and not solely for any one group. I am keen to clarify that in case there is any misunderstanding. That was the point made in the presentation, if I understand it correctly. The point is not to confer a unique position on one group over another. Under the proposal, the rent payment would go with any of the voluntary residential rehabilitation centres. It is up to the committee to look at the proposal afterwards. We will take the questions now.

Mr. Phil Thompson: Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan asked what we plan to do. We have extra space in Tiglin now because we moved our women’s programme to a new facility recently. An extra ten beds are available. Currently, we are partially renovating some of the other rooms and the extra space has come in handy in that sense. Ideally, we would like to use those rooms but there is a cost involved. We have the ability to help a further ten people. It costs approximately €30,000 per person per year in treatment at Tiglin. However, we need to ensure we do not up our numbers without upping the quality and standard to each person. It would be easy to simply fill those beds because the need is there. However, the quality and care offered to each person would diminish unless we improve staffing numbers at the same time. We are eager not to fall into that trap. I hope that answers the question.

A question was asked about support for housing. We do not get any support for housing at the moment. It goes back some time but we have been classified as an institution. People who are in institutions in the State cannot claim rent supplement and so on. We do not know how to change policy but we know how to help people in addiction. That is one of the reasons we are before the committee today seeking guidance and presenting this as a feasible solution.

We have links with prisons. We get letters on a weekly basis from people who are seeking to come to Tiglin for all manner of motivations. At one stage last year, 25% of our population had come from prison to Tiglin. It can go up and down but it is a consistent thing. We have talked about the links between homelessness and addiction but the links also cross over in this area. Mr. Murphy referred to criminal behaviour. Often people pick up charges and end up in prison because of that. This is really about joined-up thinking. We need to branch into probation and prison services for funding as well.

There was a question about nationalities. Most of the people we are working with currently are Irish nationals. However, of those we meet on the outreach bus, probably 30% are non- nationals. Those in the centre at present are all Irish nationals. In the past we might have had one or two per year who were eastern Europeans but they were not in the centre in great num- bers for one reason or another. Perhaps it is a language issue. Also, they do not seem to link in to many services on the street. That might be another issue to be addressed.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: Deputy Coppinger asked about the faith-based aspect of Tiglin. Recently, I had to go to the Mater Misericordiae University Hospital. As I went in the entrance, I saw a marble plaque. The plaque states that the Sisters of Mercy carry on the business follow- ing in the way of Jesus Christ and so on. However, they are absolutely professional in every aspect of what they do. Tiglin has a faith-based ethos but we have bereavement councillors and our medical governance is overseen by Dr. John Latham, who was employed by the Govern- ment in the implementation of the methadone programme. 35 Tiglin Challenge I have seen addiction in my family and that is what got me motivated. I do not care about anyone’s background or his or her religion. If I see a person falling on the street, my motivation is to pick that person up. The Tiglin centre has a strict 14-module programme. Mr. Murphy can talk about the details. Attitudes are covered in one module. An individual’s personal re- sponsibilities and rights are covered in another. Growing through failure is another again. It is basically a holistic approach. They do mindfulness and have art therapists. IT Carlow is doing a programme so that everybody who comes through Tiglin is coming out with an education. If Deputy Coppinger comes in, for example, when she leaves in a year’s time and people ask her where she was for the last year, at least she will have paperwork to show. Atheist, Protestant, Catholic, whatever religion someone is, he or she is very welcome to join our programme. Mr. Murphy can tell the committee about the ins and outs of the programme.

The Dublin BID - I do not know what it stands for - was mentioned.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: Business improvement district.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: They approached us, and because I am the one who is out fund- raising, I was delighted with this idea. On paper it read wonderfully. It was on the news. The Deputy mentioned boxes in different places but we have never seen them.

Mr. Phil Thompson: We have, but very small amounts were collected.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: What was the total collection on that?

Mr. Phil Thompson: We are talking a couple of thousand at maximum.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: The idea was wonderful that the Dublin business improvement district would help the homeless and people in addiction. However, it did not translate. I do not know why. As regards the Dublin BID, I know the head - I think his name is Richard - but I do not know how it operates or anything like that. We did not approach them. They approached us.

Mr. Phil Thompson: Deputy Coppinger mentioned discrimination around people’s sexu- alities and all that. That would never even come into the programme at Tiglin. We could not and would not want to discriminate against somebody because of their sexuality, belief system or non-belief system. I hope that clarifies the question.

Deputy Catherine Byrne: I apologise that I was a bit late at the beginning. I congratulate the three witnesses. I went to visit Tiglin a long time ago. The one thing that struck me about it was the 12 steps type model. It was not a religious kind of thing. It was the 12 steps and was about people, their well-being and the reality of life and everything else. I thought it was a wonderful model.

I thank Mr. Murphy for his powerful statement. His statement says that “now my life is overwhelming with hope” and I think that is something that we could all bring into our own lives. Sometimes our lives are not overwhelming with hope and certainly Mr. Murphy is a real inspiration to those working with him and above all to others in the programme. They see people coming out the other end. I believe it was said that 78% of people have some kind of qualification coming out.

When people leave somewhere like Tiglin, it does not always mean that they can go into another home. While that is correct, at least when people leave they have something to bring

36 Committee on Housing and Homelessness with them. Going in, they certainly did not have it but coming out they are different people and they have a future. I have met some people down through the years who have been through the programme. I would just like to say well done to the witnesses on that.

How does Tiglin continue to receive its referrals? How does that happen? Is there an age limit? I cannot remember because it was a number of years ago that I was there. I congratulate the witnesses. Tiglin is a model that we should really help. We have people like Mr. Murphy who are struggling in addiction and are probably put into a flat or one room and really they are lost because there is nothing happening around them. I do agree that people in a programme like this should be given some kind of rent supplement or rent allowance because Tiglin is actu- ally housing them and is probably doing a much better job than is done by putting people into a room on their own.

Deputy Mary Butler: I thank the witnesses for the presentation. Was Mr. Murphy actually 16 months a resident of Tiglin and did he stay there the whole time? I was not familiar with Tiglin before today. I am from the south of the country and had not heard of it before.

Mr. Niall Murphy: Yes, I did the whole programme. There was one stage after about ten months when I was struggling a lot and I came to the conclusion that I did not need it any more and had gone far enough, so I left Tiglin and found a flat and within six weeks I was back home- less again. Mr. Thompson took me back in, I finished off my treatment, dealt with those deeper issues and was able to walk in freedom after that.

Deputy Mary Butler: I congratulate Mr. Murphy. He is an inspiration to us all.

Chairman: Before we conclude, I want to refer specifically to Mr. McCarthy’s proposition and proposals, so that we can be clear. He indicated that 72% of people presenting to Tiglin, or almost three out of four, had a homelessness issue. Is that particular to Tiglin, or does he believe that to be the case across the board? This is not solely a Tiglin issue; it is an issue across the rest of the residential rehabilitation centres.

When Deputy Butler spoke I was struck by the fact that the length of time people are in treatment in Tiglin is longer than some of the other centres. When someone stays somewhere for two or four weeks, rent allowance is not the same issue as it would be in the case of a person who was staying somewhere for six or 12 months. Mr. McCarthy might like to comment on the normal duration of stays. I cannot see how a proposal for two weeks, with rent allowance following, could be the same as a proposal involving a six-month or longer-term commitment, step-down periods and so forth.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: I recently completed a masters degree and as part of that I focused on Tiglin and how the longevity of the programme would be beneficial or disadvantageous for treatment. I should know the percentages off by heart, but I do not. The longevity of the pro- gramme seems to be a positive factor. The longer a person engaged with the programme, the more successful the outcome. We found it was important to have a long programme. I do not recall the first part of the Chairman’s question.

Chairman: I asked whether the fact that three out of every four people presenting to Tiglin are homeless was unique to the service compared to other residential centres.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: I sit on a voluntary cluster which includes Dublin city and the east coast with Tony Geoghegan, Tony Duffin and others involved in the various professional rehabilitation centres. I called Tony before I came before the committee to advise him of the 37 Tiglin Challenge proposal. He said it affects each residential rehabilitation centre. I do not have the percentages with me. Perhaps Mr. Thompson has that information. The figures apply across the board. That is why this proposal is not for Tiglin but rather for approved and accredited residential rehabilitation centres.

Chairman: Mr. McCarthy can make a closing statement after one final point. During a previous answer he said funding was refused because Tiglin was referred to as an institution.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: Yes. It was said that there would be no cost saving and that it was an institution.

Chairman: If any of the witnesses have closing remarks, they are more than welcome to make them. Did Deputy Wallace wish to speak?

Deputy Mick Wallace: I was not going to ask a question. I wanted to compliment the wit- nesses. It was a very interesting presentation. What they seem to have achieved is great.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: For those members of the committee who have not been to Tiglin, I would love to extend an invitation to come and meet those involved. My e-mail address is [email protected]. We would love to show them around and let them see how the programme works. On behalf of myself, Mr. Thompson, Mr. Murphy and others involved with Tiglin, we want to reiterate that the solution I have put forward is very workable. It should not cost the State anything extra and there will be results. It is to be hoped that in a couple of years’ time we will be discussing the results of the decisions made by the committee.

Deputy Catherine Byrne: How are clients referred to Tiglin?

Mr. Phil Thompson: I was not sure if we had enough time to get into that. We are discuss- ing the issue of homelessness. We receive referrals through homeless services around the city. Prison link workers are quite an interesting referral source because they spot the motivation on the landings from which they operate. We have strong links with the Probation Service. GPs and rehabilitation integration workers have been a valuable source of referrals around the coun- try. Their role is to help a person track his or her journey throughout addiction, from the very first phone call right through to re-entry into society. We get a lot of word-of-mouth referrals, and we try to link them in with a local service in order that a comprehensive needs assessment can be done locally. That referral can then be sent to Tiglin.

Mr. Aubrey McCarthy: It is interesting to note that RTE did a program a while back and it focused on a guy who was well known in a certain area of Dublin. This guy now has a fantastic job. He is married and he is doing really well. Since then there has been an amount of referrals and people who have self-referred. The website crashed because of people wanting to know what they could do, because if he could do it then there is hope for us all.

Deputy Catherine Byrne: Is there an age limit?

Mr. Phil Thompson: People must be aged over 18.

Chairman: I thank Mr. McCarthy and Mr. Thompson very much for their presentation and for answering the questions. In particular I thank Mr. Murphy for his bravery in coming to tell his story in a format like this. That is much appreciated. One of the remits of the committee was that people would come with recommendations. The witnesses have made their recommenda- tion and it is up to the committee to discuss that now. I thank the witnesses for their attendance

38 Committee on Housing and Homelessness here today. We will suspend for a few moments and then we will have the next session.

Sitting suspended at 2.56 p.m. and resumed at 2.59 p.m.

Tyrrelstown Residents

Chairman: I am pleased to welcome residents from Tyrrelstown in Dublin - Ms Funke Tobun, Ms Gillian Murphy and Mr. Charlie Cleary. They have submitted a presentation to us. That will be on the website after the meeting. It has been circulated to the members, but if Ms Tobun wishes to make an opening statement she may do so, following which my colleagues may have a number of questions.

Ms Funke Tobun: I am one of the 40 residents who got the eviction letter. With me today is Ms Gillian Murphy, one of the residents, and Mr. Charlie Cleary, a member of the community and the local GAA coach. The 40 members of the community got eviction letters starting on 9 February, and we set up the action group in March. Seeing those eviction letters was heart- breaking for every one of us. This is not about the tenant; it is about the community. We are a small community with multicultural residents. More than 120 people of different nationalities live in the community. It has been a very stressful time for me since I got the letter in February. Last year, the landlord increased the rent from €1,350 for a three-bedroom house to €1,450. I told him I would move out of the house, but we searched everywhere all of last year without finding one. It is very challenging. We have children who attend the local primary and second- ary schools and play in the local football team. I have taken my son all around Dublin, with Mr. Cleary, to play GAA games. That is what our community is all about. All of us who got the eviction letter in February of this year are heartbroken. The wider community and the GAA club are supporting all of us in dealing with this stress. If the members want to know more about the vulture funds and the property owner, they can refer to appendix 1 of the presentation.

As members will know, Dublin 15, and Dublin west as a whole, is a black spot in the home- lessness crisis. I was lucky to have been called to view a house, but we were one of 15 families with children who were viewing it. I have no chance of getting the house. One may have the money to rent a house but houses are not available. Getting a house in Dublin 15 is very dif- ficult. This is an area with 8,000 properties to rent, but only about 50 properties in Dublin west alone are advertised on the Internet. Among those 50 houses, a one-bedroom house is €1,200 per month, and only two might be advertised, yet about 50 families are going to view the house. We do not have any chance at all in that regard. Two-bedroom houses are being advertised for €1,300 or €1,400 a month, but there are very few of those.

More than 6,000 people are on the council housing waiting list, some for the past eight and a half years. Many other people in the group have been waiting more than ten years for a council house. In the past five years the council has not bought a single home in Dublin 15, which makes it very difficult for every one of us. We are appealing to the Government to find a solution to this problem and to rescue us from the hands of the vulture funds. It is Tyrrelstown today; we do not know which community will be next. We are talking about 40 families. This is our community. We have no place to go. I have made my home in Tyrrelstown. I call Ireland my home, so why should I be homeless? Why should I be evicted from my home? I have lived in Tyrrelstown for 13 and a half years, and I have lived in my current property for eight and a half years. I have made it a home.

39 Tyrrelstown Residents We appeal to the members to consider our position and stand in our shoes so they can under- stand what we are going through. I am a mother of three children. I have a child with special needs who will start school in September. The school has already prepared a fund to provide resources to keep the boy in the school. Many other people in the area have children with spe- cial needs, and the school has the resources to deal with that. It will be heartbreaking for those children if they are thrown out of the community. We want the Government to acquire these units. Every member of the group wants the site to be acquired and wants it to be bought. We want the Government to buy this unit and set it up as an affordable mortgage scheme with a low affordable mortgage rate to enable us to buy these houses and remain in our community. I pay €1,450 in rent for a three-bedroom house. There is no way that I will be able to raise €16,000 for the scheme the council has set up in which one takes a loan from the council to buy a house. As it is very difficult to be able to save up to €16,000 to buy a house, we are appealing to the committee to look into our condition. As members are aware, in November and December of 2015, the Department acquired 44 units in Waterville, Dublin 15, and it only cost €13 million to acquire these homes. We are appealing here for the Government to come to our rescue from the hands of the vulture fund and to acquire these units to keep each one of us there. Were it to be set up as an affordable mortgage scheme, each one of us would buy. Those who are in receipt of rental allowance could rent under any scheme the Government wishes to set up for them to enable them to remain in the community in which they have made their homes. We are present- ing this proposal today for the Government to consider.

As members are aware, more than 100 houses in Tyrrelstown are coming up for sale and based on our research, this would cost the Government between €20 million and €24 million. Moreover, as the developer also owes money to the Government, that is, to a State-funded bank, why can the Government not take this money to acquire these units to keep us all in our homes to enable us to move on with our lives? We work locally and it would not look nice to throw us out and for us to end up homeless and obliged to leave where we live and work and to travel long distances to come down to Dublin to work. We are appealing today for the Government to step in and find a solution to our problem.

I will hand over to Ms Gillian Murphy, who wishes to add one or two points.

Ms Gillian Murphy: I thank the committee for having me. I am a mother of three whose eldest son is five, while my middle son is four and my baby is two. My middle son has special needs and was diagnosed with autism in February. The impact on us since we received the evic- tion letter has been hard. Not only are we having sleepless nights but I must try to get a house within Dublin 15 because otherwise, my son will not get the services he needs like occupational therapy and so on. We have been told that if we leave Dublin 15, we will be taken off the list and will be starting from the end of the list again wherever we find a new home. People must wait for nearly two years to be seen to get help for their kids. As Ms Funke Tobun said, my son is with the GAA and the kids do not wish to leave the community. All we ask is to be rescued because we are having sleepless nights and are mentally worn out.

Chairman: I thank Ms Murphy. Does Mr. Cleary wish to say anything at this point?

Mr. Charlie Cleary: As Ms Funke Tobun mentioned, I think approximately 60% of the GAA members in Tyrrelstown are foreign nationals of different nationalities, if not more. I look after the under-nines, the seniors and the juniors but when we go down for the under-nines on a Saturday morning, people of all different nationalities are out helping to put up posts, to get the pitch ready, to bring home the washing and so on. This has been building up over years with the under-nines, the under-12s and the over-12s. If an attempt is made to move them on or to try to 40 Committee on Housing and Homelessness sell their houses or whatever, the parents and those kids will leave and the community will be torn to shreds. When the parents go, their kids will go as well. I can go into more detail about the GAA if members wish. At present, the piece of land on which the GAA operates is part of NAMA. The community and the GAA got together and were obliged to fund-raise €24,000 to put into playing pitches for the kids, for the senior team and for a junior pitch. We did not re- ally get funding from anyone but got together and worked together to put that in. They are all playing together on it now, which is brilliant but at the moment, they are threatening to put us off it. It is not because I am here to mention pitches, but if we move off that one in the morning the GAA club will be gone. This is the only outdoor sports facility in Tyrrelstown. If it goes, the whole community will be torn to shreds again. The parents and kids will go. I cannot find words to describe how bad it will be.

Apart from that, there are other issues in Tyrrelstown. For the past two or three weeks, people have been coming to me about them. There are management companies in Tyrrelstown that are suing people in court for non-payment of fees. Those people cannot afford to pay the fees. There are 2,300 houses in Tyrrelstown, but how do management companies work there? How did they even get into Tyrrelstown? I would like to invite every member of the committee to meet us out there for an hour’s walkabout to show them exactly what is happening in the area.

There is an access road to the school but no one owns it. No one is putting their hands up to say “I’m maintaining that road”. All the people going to the community centre and the two schools use that road. If an accident happens there, who is liable from an insurance point of view? No one is maintaining the road. It is an eyesore for the parents and kids going to school. I do not know how long I have been bleating on about this. It was reported in The Herald. I do not mean to go on because there are more important things, but what is happening to people in Cruise Park is unreal. It should not be happening. We should not be sitting here discussing it. There is no way it should be allowed. That is my opinion on the matter.

Ms Funke Tobun: A couple of months ago, Ms Gillian Murphy and I were invited to make a presentation to the then Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. We asked him what he could do. He told us that the Government was in talks with this de- veloper to acquire that unit. Since then, however, we have not heard anything. We know that the Government could purchase this unit to keep every one of us there. In this regard, we are appealing to the new Minister with responsibility for housing. We welcome the idea that the Government has established the Committee on Housing and Homelessness, as well as appoint- ing a new Minister with responsibility for housing. We want them to start off where the previ- ous Minister stopped, to push the developer and to acquire these units. We have nowhere to go.

Chairman: I thank the witnesses very much. A number of my colleagues have some ques- tions. As they are asked, whoever feels like answering them should feel free to do so. We will start with Deputy Ó Broin.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: I thank the witnesses, particularly those who are living through the stress of the situation, for their presentations. I do not have a question but I want to share some information, as it might be helpful in arriving at recommendations to support residents and put pressure on the Government. What is really significant about Tyrrelstown is that what the witnesses are experiencing was happening to a large number of families before this matter came to light. However, those were isolated incidents. There was a house here or there that was being repossessed, and the families involved had to deal with the matter on their own. The fact that there are now so many in such a concentrated place has shone the spotlight on a particular problem this committee needs to consider. 41 Tyrrelstown Residents Some 40,000 mortgages - including mortgages on houses that the witnesses are living in - have been bought by short-term investment funds, or what we call vulture funds. The reason they are referred to as “short-term” is because they are not buying the properties to allow people to remain living in them, and taking a rental income in respect of them. The intention of these funds is that, when it suits them, they will sell the properties on irrespective of the consequences for people living there. We expect that they will sell them on shortly. Some 10,000 of those are properties that have been bought, while only the debt relating to the other 30,000 has been bought. This means that in a short period we will see many more situations similar to that at Tyrrelstown arising across the State. It is not just about trying to identify a solution that works for the witnesses’ families, although we also have to do that. By finding a solution for their families, we are recommending a solution to the Government in respect of the overall problem.

My understanding is that the Housing Agency has examined these figures. It is trying to impress upon the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government cred- ible solutions that would allow families like these to stay in their homes and be secure in their communities in a way which would not necessarily place undue financial burden on the State because these are rental properties with rental income.

On the back of today’s hearing, I would like the committee to write to the Housing Agency and to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, specifically on this issue, requesting whatever correspondence has gone between them on the types of solutions that the agency believes are practicable to keep people in their homes.

Chairman: While I agree we should do that, we might also include the Minister, Deputy Simon Coveney, in the correspondence because he will be the final witness in these hearings. It will allow the Deputy an opportunity to question him then.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: It would be useful for the committee to have that information prior to the Minister attending it. Obviously, the Tyrrelstown residents’ request is that the committee asks the new Minister what he will do with the request put to the former Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, some months ago.

There are ways for the State to facilitate the purchase of these houses. Putting in place such models would mean that when other Tyrrelstown situations emerge, as they will, families can be kept in their homes. The one immediate action the committee can take is to get that infor- mation. Accordingly, when we produce our report in several weeks’ time, it will have clear recommendations to deal with these kinds of crises. If we do not do that, families such as these, as well as the hundreds, if not thousands, of other families which are going to come down the line afterwards, will also be entering into the homelessness system. This is part of what we are trying to prevent.

The Tyrrelstown group has the support of Deputies like me, but we need that information to be able to progress solutions. We are being asked to come up with practical solutions. There are solutions and the information I am requesting would help us.

Chairman: The committee is agreed on that proposal.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: I hope the heartfelt words of the Tyrrelstown residents will be listened to by all members today. My daughter goes to school in Tyrrelstown. I know the resi- dents all very well as I live beside the estate in question. Regarding the frustrations expressed by Charlie Cleary, this is an area that has been badly underserved by the State. It is an area of

42 Committee on Housing and Homelessness 2,000 homes, all in quite close proximity. It is the kind of high-density living that everyone was told we needed during the boom. The pitch referred to is the only outdoor sporting facility in the area. Imagine a large town anywhere else in the country limited to using such a facil- ity. There is not yet one council-provided facility because the same developers who got these houses acquired by the vulture fund did a strange deal with the local authority. The people in Tyrrelstown are not asking for handouts but they have been badly served in terms of facilities, playing pitches and so forth. When I was on the council, we constantly had to campaign for facilities.

How did this all happen? This is relevant to some of the other discussions this committee has had about the vulture funds. The link between the vulture funds and the residents here is Beltany Property Finance, the Irish subsidiary of Goldman Sachs, which has bought these units. The Government is not neutral in this. It knew quite well that all of these portfolios were being bought up but did nothing about it. It is not an accident that this happened or that it hap- pened behind anybody’s back. Beltany spent €760 million buying portfolios in Ireland between March 2014 and March 2015. The largest portfolio was from IBRC, the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation. The Government had to know because the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, and the Department would have been kept regularly informed of what was being sold. Up to €89 million was paid to Ulster Bank, which owned these loans.

The reason this is relevant is because Goldman Sachs has a relationship with the Govern- ment on several fronts. It has been commissioned by the Government to investigate banks and all sorts of other matters. We must recognise that it was Government policy to have all of these things dealt with quickly. We see the human effect of it here. It is not that I love the native Irish developer or capitalist - I do not - or that I have any special affinity with them. However, as we have heard, the difference is that in one fell swoop, 40 people can get eviction notices and be pressured to leave an area. Some people have already left because they were so afraid. One family has gone up the road to Phibsboro and is paying €2,000 in rent. Another family that has been in emergency accommodation for months left another property - that was owned by a bank - right beside where the others live. That family is in emergency accommodation and that will be the fate of these people if we allow it to happen. This is not accidental.

Chairman: The case has been explained. I want to focus on the job in hand. Are there proposals or questions-----

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: I am just giving a bit of background about the vulture fund as well.

Chairman: I accept the background but I want to make sure that we-----

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: Looking at what is outlined in the document, the only sure-fire solution to stop people becoming homeless would involve the State acquiring these properties. There are 40 properties involved in this instance but there are potentially 150 to 200 properties because other people could get a notice at any time. Let us say it involves 100 houses. Fingal County Council has been negotiating with the developer for months. If that developer does not agree to sell them, we face a difficulty because we need the type of legislation we have been talking about, which is CPO to acquire distressed properties if the developer does not agree. The developer may agree and if so, what do we do with the people who are in them? Some of the people are on the council’s housing list. We carried out a survey of the tenants affected. Two thirds of them were working and paying full rent, while roughly one third were on rent supplement. Some of the people who were paying full mortgages were on the council’s list as 43 Tyrrelstown Residents well. My point is that we cannot just follow the usual route of turfing the people out and bring- ing in council tenants. That would be ridiculous. The reason I raise it is because this is what the council is talking about.

This committee must state that something new must be introduced for people in situ in hous- es the council is buying. I suggest that those paying rent of €1,450 are more than capable of paying a mortgage. My mortgage repayment is half that amount. I bought an affordable house from the council 13 years ago. The only difficulty would be the issue of a deposit, which is why it is put into the submission. The way around that is to allow people to continue paying a much higher rent. They could continue paying €1,400 for a period, the deposit would be worked up very quickly and then it could be reduced. I am just saying that we need some imaginative ways. Those people on rent supplement or the council’s housing list should be made council tenants in those properties.

The council has a tendency to want to house homeless people. We all favour that because we all deal with homeless families and we want them housed. There is, however, some reluc- tance on the part of councils to step in because it does not deal with their homeless lists. The reality is that the numbers on their homeless lists will increase dramatically if people are not catered for. The reason I raise this matter is because this is the first template for vulture fund properties and these are some of the issues in respect of which we must make recommendations.

Chairman: While I agree with the Deputy, to broaden the point, the recommendations must be such that they will not just be for this cohort. To return to what Deputy Ó Broin said earlier, our recommendations must be across the board.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: This is a test case.

Chairman: There are two elements to it. One is the acquisition of the properties, while the other is recognising that the people in them must be serviced in different ways because they have different needs. They are not all going to be mortgage schemes or local authority tenants. There will be a mix and this must apply in the broader community if the State manages to buy them. They will form part of the work we need to do.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Chairman will be shocked to know I agree almost en- tirely with the previous speaker.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: I will give the Deputy a membership pack for the Socialist Party later.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: My party is open for membership at the moment.

Chairman: I ask Deputy Coppinger not to provoke Deputy Durkan.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I disagree, however, with the resolution proposed by Deputy Coppinger.

This is where we can do something and have a great deal in common. The Chairman will be equally shocked to know that a number of my constituents live in Tyrrelstown, Ongar and various other places and they come to me on a regular basis. Like every other member, I have a general knowledge of the position. I agree the answer to the problem is not to put people who are in houses on the side of the road. We cannot afford, as a society, to allow that to happen without doing serious damage to our society.

44 Committee on Housing and Homelessness We should consider who should pick up the tab. There is not much sense in the local author- ity deciding to buy houses that have tenants or people in them. That will not add to the hous- ing stock. They will end up buying property that other people owned previously and relieving them of the responsibility, which will cost the State in any event. I do not see why investors who purchased the properties for whatever reason should fail to take responsibility for ensuring rents are not raised dramatically in a short period. They should wait their turn until it is possible to make the provision required for the people concerned. I have come across this in my own constituency and in neighbouring constituencies, as has everyone around the table. A venture capitalist has two options: invest in a bank, for which he or she will receive a return of 0.5% or 1%, or invest in property, for which he or she might achieve a 10% or 20% increment on an annual basis. In some cases during the boom, such an individual achieved increases of 400% or 500%. It is crucial that we all agree to that. There is no scenario in which we can countenance the creation of homelessness for whatever economic reason, because that is our responsibility as public representatives.

As Deputy Coppinger said, it is important that we empathise with the fact that a house is not just a house standing free by itself. That is not the entirety of what is required. People also need a community and the recreational space that goes with it. The Deputy is correct that there was a lack of emphasis on these issues during the boom, but not all of us agreed with that. Many of us strongly objected to the fact that there was a concentration of high-density development which provided little other than a place to sleep at night in a confined space, as the committee has discussed over the past number of weeks. These are not acceptable places for people to live in or in which a community should exist and take its normal place in society. Now is the time, as development plans are being drafted all over the country, to say to local authority members that they must provide community facilities as well, because that is part of what living is about.

The issue of management fees has been mentioned. They are atrocious. I was a voice in the wilderness when management fees of €2,000 or €3,000 annually were regarded as a worthwhile proposition. People who previously had had difficulty paying rates were suddenly expected to pay multiples of that amount. We need to examine what we will do about that and to recognise that putting people in a worse position that than they were in previously will not solve our hous- ing problem.

If a person is homeless, could potentially become homeless, is living in cramped, over- crowded conditions, or has someone with special needs in the household, it is a challenging po- sition at any time. That must be recognised. The potential threat of homelessness exacerbates the situation. People need to be close to community facilities, including schools, care centres, hospitals and so on, where they have established community reliance and support.

The issues the witnesses mentioned are not new to us - we know about them. The witnesses are right that we need to do something about them and we need to do it in the short term. I am concerned about the quick fix. What I am most concerned about at this stage is that we try to ensure that venture capitalists recognise that they have a social responsibility. The banking system in this country did not do itself any great honour over a period which eventually resulted in the situations that we are discussing now. They have some moral responsibility in these mat- ters. I do not expect them to hand over dosh to us on an ongoing basis. There is nothing in life for free and we must recognise that. The witnesses know that too. I do not wish to offer the people soft options. We need to ensure that investors of that kind, with that intention, recognise that we expect them to display their social obligations of which they have many. Now is the time to show it.

45 Tyrrelstown Residents Deputy Ruth Coppinger: They will not display any social obligation.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: We deal with them on a one-to-one basis and it works.

Chairman: The witnesses very adequately set out the case and I find myself in agreement with Deputy Ó Broin in saying that, as a committee, we are not looking at Tyrrelstown in iso- lation or as it being the public face of a potential problem, as was referred to in the opening presentation. That is important. All the previous speakers, including Deputy Durkan, referred to the difficulties involved.

I want to pick up on one point Deputy Durkan made on which I am in slight disagreement but I do not mean to be controversial in any way. The Deputy talks about the moral and social responsibility of the venture capital funds. From the point of view of the committee, we cannot trust in that. We need to make a recommendation that ensures a satisfactory level of responsi- bility is accepted. There has to be a degree of certainty. I do not disagree that they should have it but the committee’s recommendation must be one that carries some substance to ensure that responsibility is-----

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: But Chairman-----

Chairman: Yes.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: -----if we are seen to cave in to that and to move away from the pressure created by the venture capitalists, then we have lost before we start. I strongly urge that we keep that in mind. I know what people will say to that. I expect venture capitalists in those sorts of circumstances to recognise that if they have bought properties - under whatever conditions - there are people in situ who have an expectation of remaining there for some con- siderable time until the State or other agencies can resolve the problem. We may disagree on it but I sat across the table from the same venture capitalists to whom the Chairman is referring.

Chairman: I am not disagreeing with the Deputy.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: We had a sharp exchange.

Chairman: I am not disagreeing with the Deputy. I am saying the committee’s responsibil- ity is not just to rely on that. We must come forward with a recommendation to ensure it hap- pens. That is the differentiation I am making. The Deputy talks about their moral and social responsibilities, which they may well have, but our recommendations have to be a bit more binding than depending on those responsibilities being honoured. That is the point I was trying to make.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: I will clarify one thing. People might not understand that the developer who built these houses owns them. The crash came and he could not sell them. If the State was to buy them, I do not see that as caving in. It would add to the housing stock and I will tell the Chairman why. At least half of the people involved are on the council’s housing list in any event and could become council tenants. The council used to do affordable housing and that is very important because there are many people who do not qualify for council hous- ing because their incomes are too high.

Chairman: Or mortgage to rent.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: If one takes the estate where I live, which is up the road from Tyrrelstown, there were 400 affordable houses all built by the council and there are 100 social 46 Committee on Housing and Homelessness council tenants all mixed in together. It works perfectly well. It would be no different if the council bought these 100 houses. It would benefit from the mortgages people would pay and it would also have a number of people off its list.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I want to get back to this again.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: Goldman Sachs does not have any responsibility.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I assure the Deputy that it is time for us to make it recognise that it has a responsibility.

Chairman: There will be a forum for us to deal with this. We have witnesses before us and that will be a separate issue.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin: Going back to the presentation, it is not that there is a simple choice between us calling on the banks or, in this case, the investment funds to do something or else the State picks up the full tab. There are a range of options available and the difficulty with Deputy Durkan’s point is that the Minister, Deputy Noonan, will not agree with the kind of leg- islation required to make those short-term investment funds or vulture funds do what we would like. We know that as he has already said it on the record. There are other solutions available, somewhere in the region of what Deputy Coppinger is speaking about. There are options and we must pursue that path.

Chairman: That is your proposal. The committee has agreed to seek the correspondence and have it when the Minister appears before us.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Do not forget my proposal when the Minister is here too.

Chairman: The Deputy had several proposals.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I will be reinforcing it then.

Chairman: You will be more than welcome to do so.

Deputy Catherine Byrne: I apologise to the witnesses as I had to leave. Something hap- pened over which I had no control. I heard a little of the presentation outside as well. This is very complex. Deputy Coppinger stated a survey was done and two thirds of those surveyed were working, with one third on rent supplement. How many units were surveyed? Was it 40, 100 or 200?

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: It was everybody who got an eviction notice.

Ms Funke Tobun: That is 40 houses.

Deputy Catherine Byrne: Okay. There is no simple solution to this and the witnesses have already heard different views. It is beholden on this committee to explore whatever op- tions there can be. We do not have the answers, or I certainly do not. Other people are involved who may be able to guide us on the options and we must look at all of them. We must try to facilitate people who, like the witnesses, live in rented accommodation and who now find them- selves waiting to be put out of their homes. Although I did not see the presentation, I know by looking at the witnesses that they are under a lot of stress. Anybody, particularly those with young children, living in a home where the children can go to school nearby and where there is involvement with the community would want to remain in that home.

47 Tyrrelstown Residents I sympathise with the witnesses and I do not wish to be bad in saying that. As a committee we must explore options but it is not up to us today to create those options. Such options must be found as there is nothing to be lost. Only gains can be made if we try in this respect. The witnesses are only a few of probably many people who will find themselves in this position over the next couple of years. They are as important as the other hundred or more people involved with this. As a committee member, when we explore the options I will certainly be very open to formulating a viable option to keep people in their homes.

Chairman: There is a final contribution before we can revert to the witnesses.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: The witnesses make a very compelling case, especially for the community they have built, the lives they have chosen and their success. I want to get this clear in my head. The party buying a house and renting it out, whether it is a vulture fund, a Deputy or Senator or a businessperson, can put an end to a contract provided that party indicates it is to sell the property, leaving a three-month notice for vacating the property. Is that the kernel of the issue? It is the problem. In other words, there might be a guarantee, provided the landlord does not sell the house, that there will not be a rent review for two years but the problem arises when the party sells the house. That is putting the pressure on the witnesses and others in the estate, even those with varying lengths of tenancies. This is also relevant to the 300,000 people renting in this State. It is an issue across the board. I will discuss the vulture funds shortly.

There is a deeper issue here for the landlord. How does one create a situation where, ef- fectively, the tenants can stay? What one is really saying is that they cannot sell the house for a stated period to give longer-term security to the tenants who are in place. As Deputy Durkan said, there could be such a situation until there was a help-to-buy scheme or until other strate- gies could come into play. In other words, notwithstanding the fact that one might want to sell, and I do not know if this can be done legally, one is saying that one cannot sell until we come up with solutions - each one being different - to this problem. If a person is lucky enough to afford a mortgage, that is one thing. If he or she is on social welfare, he or she has a different capacity. The issue is deeper, notwithstanding the points that have been made.

Could we invite some of these vulture funds to appear before the committee? Could we ask Mr. Goldman Sachs and Co. - let us refer to the company as a personality rather than a con- glomerate - to appear before the committee and ask them to explain what would be a solution for them? I refer to what the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, said to the committee when asked about this matter. If I recall correctly, he said that the vulture funds might be in a position to do a better deal than the person from whom they bought the properties because they got a bigger discount in the price. That is an issue we could pursue.

It is very complex. I do not disagree with anybody present. I support the witnesses’ objec- tives - to stay in their homes, that they should not have to leave unless or until they are happy to go and that the stability of their lives is guaranteed in so far as it can be by whatever process we can put in place to assist that. Ultimately, however, we cannot stop people or entities from selling the houses if they are landlords.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: The Government can buy them.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: I know, but it cannot buy 300,000.

Chairman: There are a number of points-----

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: I wish to make that proposal if it is in order to do so. 48 Committee on Housing and Homelessness Deputy Ruth Coppinger: I wish to clarify that the Government is buying houses in Tyr- relstown every day. The council is buying houses and housing council tenants in that area all of the time.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: I welcome that.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: Now it has a chance to buy more.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: I have no issue with that. I am just saying it cannot buy 300,000.

Chairman: It has been clearly identified that this matter is complex and that there is more than one issue involved. There has also been some discussion about the right of people to sell or not. It is unusual in the residential property market that units are sold with vacant possession. If one is selling a commercial unit and there is a rent roll, the rent roll normally dictates the selling price. That is a matter for the committee to examine in its deliberations. At this stage, I will hand back to the residents if they wish to speak on any of the points.

Ms Funke Tobun: Most of us have taken this case to the PRTB. We have challenged the eviction letter and some of us have found that it is invalid. The landlord has breached contracts by not fixing the house. We are taking this just to buy time for the Government to come in. These are 40 families. This is not about tenants; we are one community. If people know Tyr- relstown well, they will know that all those who live there are as one. We are appealing to the committee today. We are grateful for the invitation to come here to present our case. We want the committee to examine it. Almost 90% of the 40 families are working. Only a small number of them are on housing allowance. We are appealing to the committee to devise an affordable model to keep us in our community and our homes so we can move on with our lives and con- tinue the jobs we do within our community.

Mr. Charlie Cleary: Could the people in the houses buy them from the developer? Only one thing is preventing them from buying. They are able to pay €1,500 a month in mortgage or rent. Perhaps there could be some type of agreement with the bank and developer whereby they could buy them. Some of the houses there cost €550,000 and they are worth just over €200,000 now. Instead of the vulture funds buying them, could the residents who are working there and the council buy them from the developer for the standard price or the going rate?

Deputy Ruth Coppinger: The problem is that they cannot get mortgage approval.

Ms Funke Tobun: Yes, most of us are not-----

Mr. Charlie Cleary: Yes, we would not have the deposit for the mortgage. Could it be something the committee could look into with the banks?

Chairman: To be helpful, we do not know that, but some of the proposals Deputy Ó Broin referred to in terms of the Housing Agency may have potential and we will try to see those.

Ms Funke Tobun: Most of us would not get mortgage approval. We are paying very high rent. I am paying €1,450 for a three-bedroom house. It is difficult for me to save up for a de- posit. That would be about €20,000 to €30,000. My husband is a taxi driver and I am a care assistant. We are giving all the money we make back to the landlord, so we have nothing left. That is why we are appealing today for the committee to look into this proposal to find a solu- tion. It should look into the rent of the house. The landlord has too much power over the ten- ants. The committee should look to keep the tenants in their houses, rather than being woken by

49 Tyrrelstown Residents a landlord telling them they are being evicted and throwing them out on the street. This is hap- pening to 40 people and we do not know who is going to be in this position next, so we are ap- pealing today that the committee, the housing Minister and all the Deputies would look into our proposal and come to our rescue before we end up on the street. We already have 265 families in homeless shelters in Dublin 15. How many more are going? We are looking at around 200 children and their families going by the end of the year. We are appealing for a solution fast.

Ms Gillian Murphy: I am one of the people who is getting rent allowance. There is another family with a child with autism and she is under so much stress. There are not many of us who are getting rent allowance. We would like to keep paying the rest and stay in our home. We just want the community to stay together. We do not want to leave the community; we want to keep it as one, as it has been.

Ms Funke Tobun: Her rent is €1,400 and she is topping it up. Mine is €1,450 and it has three bedrooms. She is topping up with over €300 every month. It is very difficult for people like that. I am working part-time, my husband is working full-time and we are struggling. This is somebody who is not working at all. The Government should look into all this and find a solution for every one of us.

Mr. Charlie Cleary: There are apartments in the local village, where the shops and the pub have closed down. I believe that is under NAMA and is going up for sale. There are apart- ments above those shops and there are families living in those apartments as well. I do not know how many apartments there are, but if there are 60 apartments and there are two children in each of them, that is 120 children. If there are two parents, that is 120 parents. I would like the committee members to come out some day and view the area with me, Ms Murphy and Ms Tobun. They could just walk around the area and have a look at it. Then they might be able to understand exactly what we are talking about and what we are saying. We are not exaggerating.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: If the Chairman could arrange that-----

Chairman: If members want to travel out, we can arrange that. At this stage we will con- clude the meeting. I thank the residents for their attendance here today and for their submis- sion. It is difficult to come in and make a presentation but they did very well. They made us fully understand the situation they are facing. Their written submission will be on the website and the points they made in it are very valid.

The committee adjourned at 3.50 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 24 May 2016.

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