PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

Third Delegated Legislation Committee

DRAFT DORSET (STRUCTURAL CHANGES) (MODIFICATION OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND PUBLIC INVOLVEMENT IN HEALTH ACT 2007) REGULATIONS 2018 DRAFT BOURNEMOUTH, DORSET AND POOLE (STRUCTURAL CHANGES) ORDER 2018

Wednesday 16 May 2018 No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the final version of the report should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than

Sunday 20 May 2018

© Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2018 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 2

The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chair: SIR HENRY BELLINGHAM

† Brereton, Jack (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con) † Morgan, Stephen (Portsmouth South) (Lab) † Docherty, Leo (Aldershot) (Con) † Perkins, Toby (Chesterfield) (Lab) † Donelan, Michelle (Chippenham) (Con) Shuker, Mr Gavin (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op) † Elmore, Chris (Ogmore) (Lab) † Sunak, Rishi (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of † Hughes, Eddie (Walsall North) (Con) State for Housing, Communities and Local † Jenkyns, Andrea (Morley and Outwood) (Con) Government) † Keegan, Gillian (Chichester) (Con) † Tolhurst, Kelly (Rochester and Strood) (Con) Leslie, Mr Chris (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op) † Zeichner, Daniel (Cambridge) (Lab) † McMahon, Jim (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/ Co-op) Nina Foster, Committee Clerk Malhotra, Seema (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op) † Moore, Damien (Southport) (Con) † attended the Committee

The following also attended, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(6):

Baron, Mr John (Basildon and Billericay) (Con) Letwin, Sir Oliver (West Dorset) (Con) Bone, Mr Peter (Wellingborough) (Con) Lewer, Andrew (Northampton South) (Con) Burns, Conor (Bournemouth West) (Con) Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian (Bridgwater and West Chope, Sir Christopher (Christchurch) (Con) Somerset) (Con) Davies, Philip (Shipley) (Con) Syms, Sir Robert (Poole) (Con) Drax, Richard (South Dorset) (Con) Tomlinson, Michael (Mid Dorset and North Poole) Hoare, Simon (North Dorset) (Con) (Con) 3 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 4

makes possible, offers the potential to save more than Third Delegated Legislation £170 million over that period. In bringing forward their Committee proposal, the nine Dorset councils undertook extensive engagement and open consultation. That included a formal consultation from August to October 2016, Wednesday 16 May 2018 comprising the following elements: an open consultation; a representative household survey; a survey of all parish and town councils; 15 lengthy deliberative workshops; [SIR HENRY BELLINGHAM in the Chair] nine in-depth telephone interviews with representatives of some of Dorset’s largest companies; and finally, the Draft Dorset (Structural Changes) opportunity to submit written submissions. (Modification of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con): Could my hon. Act 2007) Regulations 2018 Friend amplify two points? First, the proposal is to create two new councils, not to merge existing local 2.30 pm authorities; secondly, the most germane point is that this has been a grassroots-up proposal, not a top-down The Chair: Is it the wish of the Committee for the diktat. statutory instruments to be debated together? Rishi Sunak: I thank my hon. Friend for both his Hon. Members: No. points, which he made well and with which I am delighted to agree. This locally led and locally driven proposal The Chair: I will call the Minister to move the first came from the bottom up for Government to consider. statutory instrument, and debate on the second will The consultation programme achieved well over 70,000 follow.Debate on each statutory instrument may continue responses. There was clear support for moving to two for up to one and a half hours. I remind the Committee unitary councils. In the representative household survey, that the debate should be confined to the statutory 73% of residents were supportive. In general, across all instrument being considered. the areas of Dorset, there was an emphatic preference for the proposed option, with 65% of residents in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, representative household survey supporting it. Communities and Local Government (Rishi Sunak): I The then Local Government Minister, my hon. Friend beg to move, the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), told Parliament That the Committee has considered the draft Dorset (Structure in February last year what criteria Government would Changes) (Modification of the Local Government and Public use for assessing locally led proposals for local government Involvement in Health Act 2007) Regulations 2018. restructuring, namely that the proposal is likely to It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, improve local government in the area concerned; that it Sir Henry. I am delighted to see so many hon. Members has a credible geography; and that it commands a good present. The statutory instruments were laid before this deal of local support. House on 29 March. If approved, they will provide for the abolition of the nine existing local government areas in Dorset and their councils, and similarly affect Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): The Minister the existing boroughs of Bournemouth and Poole, the is talking about the widespread grassroots support for county of Dorset and the boroughs and districts in the the proposal. Will he also acknowledge that it enjoys county of Dorset. They will also allow for the establishment my support as the Member of Parliament for Bournemouth of two new local government areas and two new single-tier West and the support of my right hon. Friend the unitary councils for the area on 1 April 2019. Member for West Dorset, my hon. Friends the Members for Poole, for Mid Dorset and North Poole, for North The Government, as made clear in our manifesto, are Dorset and for South Dorset, and my right hon. Friend committed to supporting those local authorities that for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood)? Only one Member wish to combine to serve their communities better. We of Parliament in Dorset is in opposition to the proposal. have also announced to the House that we will consider any locally led proposals for local government restructuring that are put forward by one or more of the councils Rishi Sunak: I agree with my hon. Friend. He states concerned and that improve local government and service the fact clearly: every Member bar one in the county of delivery, create structures with a credible geography and Dorset is supportive of the proposal. command a good deal of local support. The Dorset councils’ proposals would establish a Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I am single tier of local government across the whole of that person, but I know that the Minister believes not in Dorset, replacing the nine existing local government the tyranny of the majority but in democracy and the areas and their councils with two new local government undertaking given by the Government in the House of areas and councils: one to cover the areas of Bournemouth, Commons in 2015 that no local authority would be Christchurch and Poole, and a second covering the rest abolished without its consent. May I ask him to confirm of Dorset. that the criteria to which he has just referred were not Dorset estimates that that has the potential to generate published until after submission of the application? savings of at least £108 million over the first six years. They were only published in response to a parliamentary The full transformation programme, which unitarisation question from me. 5 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 6

Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con) rose— and businesses, including in particular those responsible for the provision of healthcare, and the police, fire and Rishi Sunak: Before I respond, I shall give way again. rescue, and rail services across Christchurch and the wider Dorset area. As has been mentioned, on 29 November a number Richard Drax: I want to put on the record that I of my right hon. and hon. Friends with constituencies support the move, as my hon. Friend the Member for in the area wrote to the then Secretary of State, my right Bournemouth West has said. Initially, I did not take hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid), part in the discussion or make a decision because I urging him to support the proposal submitted by the believe that it is one for local people and local councils. Dorset councils as the option that commanded strong However, the evidence that they wanted it was local support and that will do the job that needs to be overwhelming, so I back them. done. They stated that “the further savings required to be made, if our councils are to Rishi Sunak: I thank my hon. Friend for that comment. continue delivering quality public services, can only be done I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch through a reorganisation of their structures”. that I am happy to discuss the issue now, except I fear The representative household survey, commissioned that he may want to return it in reference to the exchanges by the nine Dorset councils, estimates that 65% of on the passing of the Cities and Local Government residents across the whole of Dorset support the proposal. Devolution Act 2016 and the assurances he believes he Of the nine Dorset councils, eight support the proposed was given. He has corresponded at length with the change and have formally consented to the necessary Department on that point. Suffice to say, I think there secondary legislation. was a misunderstanding on his part about what was said. It was clearly set out by the then Secretary of Regarding the one Dorset council that does not support State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge the proposal—Christchurch Borough Council—a third Wells (Greg Clark), that the Government would not of its elected councillors do support the proposal. Those impose a top-down solution on local government but councillors wrote to my right hon. Friend the then would respond to locally led and locally driven proposals. Secretary of State, stating: That was further clarified in the other place by Baroness “We are acutely aware of the constraints on local government Williams of Trafford, who made it explicitly clear that funding and the financial pressure that upper tier services are facing. We therefore consider it our duty to respond to these no one council should have a veto on restructuring challenges by supporting the restructuring of local government in proposals. Dorset.” Finally, it might be helpful to say something about Simon Hoare: It is not only the noble baroness who the statutory framework. has confirmed that point. In early December, during the Adjournment debate secured by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, the then Minister, my hon. Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): We have heard Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), confirmed from many local Members about their support for the in response to an intervention by me that unanimity proposal. I have a letter here from the leader of Christchurch was not required. Borough Council outlining its view that Bournemouth and Poole could go together but, because 84% of residents voted against it in a referendum, Christchurch should Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In be allowed to stay independent. Could the Minister fact, my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton told the explain why he came to the conclusion that Christchurch House that the Government’s intention was for those should be forced into it when the people seem to be criteria to be assessed in the round and across the whole saying that they are against it? area subject to a reorganisation, and not to be considered individually by each existing council area. Following on from that, on 7 November 2017 the Rishi Sunak: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that then Secretary of State told the House in a written intervention. I think the poll he refers to was an open-ended statement that he was “minded to”implement the proposal one run by the borough of Christchurch, which accounts made by the Dorset councils. A period of representation for only 6% of the population of the Dorset area. followed, until 8 January this year, during which we Secondly, it is not only Christchurch Borough Council received 210 representations. On the basis of the proposal, that is responsible for the services provided to the the representations and all other relevant information residents of Christchurch. The county council provides available, the Government are satisfied that all the about 80% of those services. Across the piece, in the criteria are met. On 26 February 2018 the Secretary of representative household survey, which was designed to State announced his decision to implement the proposal, be statistically representative, there is strong support subject to parliamentary approval, and on 29 March among more than 60% of Christchurch residents for laid the draft statutory instruments. this particular proposal. We believe that the proposed governance changes for which we are seeking parliamentary approval will benefit Simon Hoare: I have searched, as I am sure the people across the whole of Dorset, in every district and Minister has, all the regulations and guidance for the borough. Our aim as a Government is to enable the status of a referendum in this process, but it cannot be people of Dorset to have as good a deal as possible on found. To call it a referendum is incorrect. It was a their local services. That is not the view of the Government parish poll, which is not binding on the commissioning alone; it is shared by 79% of all councillors across the body—that is, the borough council—and it is certainly whole of Dorset, and by other public service providers not binding on Her Majesty’s Government. 7 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 8

Rishi Sunak: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Sir Christopher Chope: I do not think we are going to He is right to raise the validity of the poll. I am sure we make much progress in this Committee if there is such will return to that issue later. Suffice to say, there are misrepresentation of the facts. Leading counsel was questions as to whether the poll is valid and they should indeed asked by Christchurch Borough Council to look be taken into consideration. at the legal issues. It was only after the regulations were laid that the council went back to leading counsel and said that it was shocked to find that they were retrospective Sir Christopher Chope: In that case, why did my right in effect. On going back a third time to leading counsel, hon. Friend the then Secretary of State encourage the they advised that the borough council had a good case holding of that local poll, at tremendous expense to for quashing the regulations and wrote a letter asking local people, implying that the decision taken would be the Government to withdraw them. The point made by compelling evidence in the case? my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset is completely irrelevant. Rishi Sunak: It is not my understanding that the then Secretary of State encouraged the running of that poll. Rishi Sunak: My hon. Friend the Member for North Regardless of that—and my hon. Friend knows this Dorset was making a point about the substance of the because my right hon. Friend the previous Secretary of case. I can tell the Committee the content of the State told him—he did take the poll into account when Government’s letter in reply to the pre-action protocol considering the proposals. letter. It notes that there is a bad case on the grounds of To return to the statutory framework, the regulations delay and that the substance of the case is wholly vary the Local Government and Public Involvement in without merit; the Government believe that it is not Health Act 2007 in its application to the case of the arguable at all. I have no doubt we will hear from Dorset councils during the period from when the regulations Christchurch Borough Council in due course. come into force until 31 March 2020. The regulations require the consent of at least one relevant authority. In Richard Drax: I want to make one more important this case, Bournemouth, Poole, the county of Dorset, point. As far as the decision makers are concerned, five of the districts within Dorset and eight of the nine there was cross-party agreement—all parties agreed to councils in Dorset have consented to the regulations this. being made. In conclusion, the merits of the abolition on 1 April Rishi Sunak: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. next year of the nine existing local government— It is important to note that there is widespread support from different parties and people from different walks Sir Christopher Chope: Before the Minister finishes, of life, across the entire piece, for the regulations. will he say something about the legal action that is That is an important note to conclude on. This is a being taken against the Government by Christchurch locally led proposal, submitted by the Dorset councils, Borough Council on the advice of leading counsel, the which we believe will improve local government and letter before action that was sent, and the implications service delivery in the area. It represents a credible for good local government in Christchurch if we end up geography and commands a good deal of local support. with litigation that ultimately results in the regulations I have full confidence in the area to implement the being quashed? unitarisation by next April, enabling the elections to the new council in May next year. On that basis, I wish Rishi Sunak: I am happy to do that. The Department the councils involved the best of luck and good speed has received what is called a pre-action protocol letter with all the proposals they want to bring forward. I from Christchurch Borough Council, informing of its commend the regulations to the Committee. consideration of a judicial review. It is important to note that that is not the start of a formal legal proceeding. 2.48 pm It is an exploratory letter, to which the Government Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): have responded extremely robustly. We have set out in It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, no uncertain terms why we believe— Sir Henry. We find ourselves in the middle of what seems to be a rift in the Conservative party. Luckily, we Simon Hoare rose— have been gently eased into that sort of thing during Brexit negotiations, so we are very much used to it. The Chair: I call Simon Hoare again. Simon Hoare rose— Simon Hoare: I note the use of the word “again”, Jim McMahon: I might start before I give way, if that Sir Henry. Is my hon. Friend the Minister aware that in is okay. The principle for any merger or reorganisation two conferences with leading counsel, which my hon. ought to be that it has the consent of local people, is in Friend the Member for Christchurch has referred to the spirit of democracy and will lead to good governance and one of which he attended, leading counsel advised and good public services being delivered. As an observation, Christchurch Borough Council that there were no grounds we know that a number of members of the Committee for a judicial review? who have voting rights support the regulations; it does not sit well that the single Member from the area who Rishi Sunak: That is a very interesting intervention does not support the plan is not allowed to sit on the from my hon. Friend. Committee with voting rights. I understand that that is 9 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 10 about managing the process and not wanting to create in support, but of course two thirds are not. We need to division on the Government Benches, but it is not quite be clear about what the regulations are and what they in the spirit of having robust debate where there is are not. The regulations contain a list of consenting clearly a difference of opinion. authorities who are affected by the change. Christchurch is not in that list, but it is not made explicit that Simon Hoare: This is an enormously important point. Christchurch has objected. It would helpful if that was There are eight Members of Parliament—they happen made clear. to be Conservative Members—representing the county We want clarity about why a process of merger and of Dorset, and none of us is a voting Member on this reorganisation has started, and we want to be convinced piece of legislation. We happen to be exercising our about the consultations, evaluations and professional right, as any Member can, to turn up to a Delegated assessments that have taken place in terms of both the Legislation Committee and speak. However, when financial viability of local government and the role that Sir Henry calls for votes, no Dorset hands will be able to local authorities have always had—to grow their local go up or stay down. economies and be leaders of place rather than just leaders of councils—but are expected to do increasingly. Jim McMahon: I am grateful for that clarification. If we get all of those lined up, even if there is dissent in some elements, and the case made is so overwhelmingly in the public interest, as lawmakers we must take that Sir Christopher Chope: Will my hon. Friend—the into account, because we are here to make good law, hon. Gentleman give way? which does not always please everybody all of the time. I do understand that. Jim McMahon: In the interests of balance. Some questions have been put to me, and I would be grateful for the Minister’s response. We have been asked Sir Christopher Chope: The hon. Gentleman certainly to consider whether we ought to divide the Committee, is—I hope—a friend of mine, because he is listening and we are open-minded. Much will depend on the and that is healthy. I inform him, if he does not know Government’s response as we try in a genuine way to get already, that in response to a point of order on 10 May answers. on the business question, Mr Speaker said: First, we want clarity about how the Government “Some people might think…that it is perhaps less than collegiate, perceive the vote by residents in Christchurch. What kind or courteous on the part of the powers that be knowingly weight does that carry and how can that position be and deliberately to exclude the hon. Member for Christchurch reconciled in a future relationship? Many of us in from the Committee.”—[Official Report, 10 May 2018; Vol. 640, metropolitan authorities have the scars of the 1974 c. 925.] reorganisation, which people still go on about in Oldham and still resent. It was seen as a takeover. Their local Jim McMahon: That is noted. I was in the Chamber identities were cast to one side in favour of a new for that point of order and Mr Speaker’s response, so I identity. It should have been there for administration, was aware of it. There is clearly a difference of opinion, but incrementally tried to change the identity of a place and Christchurch Council has been robust in its position. and its people. A response on that would be helpful. However people want to view that, the council went out The point has been made a number of times that this to its local population and those who took part were secondary legislation is, in effect, retrospective. I would clear that they were against reorganisation—84% were be grateful for a Government response on that. It would against the proposed merger. I am not saying that that also be helpful for me to know what implications it in itself is reason alone to block any reorganisation or might have for other potential mergers or reorganisations merger, but simply to put that to one side as if not under discussion elsewhere. important, or to try to decry such public involvement, is not the spirit in which to go about it. We know that there are two primary routes. First, it can be initiated by invitation from the Secretary of State—we know that that process has happened in Sir Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) (Con): The hon. other places. The other route is local authorities coming Gentleman makes an important point, which was in together to apply to the Secretary of State for reorganisation fact made earlier by one of his colleagues. I hope he and make the case for it. I would like reassurance that, appreciates that none of us—and, I think, none of the when the Secretary of State initiates the consideration other councils—would have wished to force Christchurch of reorganisation, we will not find ourselves in this into this position. From our point of view, it would be situation—a local authority and local residents who do perfectly fine for Christchurch to be on its own, but not support reorganisation are being forced to reorganise. unfortunately it is not a feasible operation. Christchurch Confirmation on those issues would be very helpful for is aware that it does not have the capacity to run all of the debate. its services, including county-level services. Therefore, the question is whether a small proportion of the population in Christchurch voting in the majority in a parish poll 2.56 pm should be enough to derail the entire process for the Sir Oliver Letwin: I will make two points. First, I will whole of Dorset ex-Christchurch, including those residents elaborate on the point that we exchanged views about in of Christchurch who we believe will benefit. my intervention. I rather admire the persistence of my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, who has Jim McMahon: I accept that point. The question is fought a long-running and passionate campaign, and more about the spirit of the debate. We heard earlier stirred up a great deal of passion in Christchurch. I that a third of councillors on Christchurch Council are recognise that there are concerns. Were it possible to 11 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 12

[Sir Oliver Letwin] who are directly affected but their relatives—but a colossal strain on the entire national health service, have produced a situation in which Christchurch went, including the A&E and the back of Dorchester Hospital so to speak, UDI, I think we would all have been alike. Unless we resolve that, we will move in the next perfectly content with that in principle. few years from having a massive problem to having a However, as the hon. Member for Oldham West and massive crisis in my part of Dorset and many other Royton rightly said, it is the job of the Minister and places. The number of frail elderly people is increasing Parliament to legislate in a way that provides for stable, apace in Dorset, as it is in many parts of the country. viable and effective local government. I do not think If Dorset County Council had large funds available that there is a solution in which Christchurch is on its to solve that problem, that would be one thing, but it own and can provide for its people any of those things. does not. It is highly cash-strapped. It is partly to blame Therefore, the unenviable fact is that we are either all for that, because its children’s services department’s forced not to proceed in this way, or Christchurch has budget is, as all my hon. Friends from Dorset know, to be in one pile or another. It has ended up, in the under extreme strain due to mismanagement. However, judgment of the Secretary of State, as being in the pile it is partly not to blame—even if it did not have that that the councillors themselves proposed—namely, as problem in its children’s services department, it would part of the conurbation, which actually, geographically, not have the resources to look after the increasing it is. number of frail elderly people. I am sure that the That is an unfortunate fact, but it does not—this is pressure being put on the Government to liberate more my second point—in any way justify overturning a set funding will in due course produce more funding, but I of proposals that have come from the people of Dorset am equally sure that that will still be insufficient to deal and Dorset County Council. It is not a matter of the with the matter, just as the increase in the precept was democratic tyranny of the majority. Rather, it is a insufficient. matter of the viability of local government and local This is a real-life crisis for very many real individuals. government services in our county. That is the main It is not a game about local government. It is not to do point that I wanted to make. with sentiment about where people happen to think I am not by disposition in favour or reorganising they are part of. It is about something very much Governments. My view is that, on the whole, when deeper: the life condition—the wellbeing—of frail elderly people reorganise Ministries, a lot of people change people in my constituency and of other people who are their desks, there is a great discontinuity and very little queueing up to try to be treated by a hospital that is is achieved at the end of the day. What the hon. Member under undue pressure because it has to deal with the for Oldham West and Royton said about the 1974 consequences of the insufficient care of those people. reorganisation echoes with me. I remember very well in There will be no realistic or feasible cure for that under the early ’80s when I was working in Downing Street any administration in the next five, 10 or 15 years except that we were still wrestling with problems that had to achieve massive efficiencies. arisen as a result of that top-down reorganisation. The efficiencies that will be engendered by this For the record, I opposed the top-down reorganisation reorganisation are partly administrative. The Minister that created the unitaries in Bournemouth and Poole referred to them. We believe that rather more than and left the two-tier structure in the rest of the county, £100 million can be saved over a number of years. There because I did not think that it would end up being is some precedent for that. We know what happened viable. As a matter of fact, I think history has shown when our fire service was amalgamated with Wiltshire’s, that it has not. I am not a proponent of top-down the same thing is happening with our police service, reorganisation. I am not a proponent of reorganisation which is being amalgamated with Cornwall’s and Devon’s, at all. While I am at it, I think the biggest mistake of the and we have already seen in my area and those of some Government in which I served for six years was our of my hon. Friends the power of the amalgamation of attempted reorganisation of the national health service the back offices of Weymouth and Portland, North which, as it turned out, would have been better not Dorset and West Dorset Councils. We are now broadly reorganised. I just want to make it entirely clear that I financiallysolvent,exclusivelybecauseof thatamalgamation am not a mad reorganisationist—I may be mad, but I of effort. We know this can be done, and it is very am not a reorganisationist. important. What drove me strongly and passionately to support this set of proposals was something else completely. In Conor Burns: The situation that my right hon. Friend West Dorset, I have one of the highest proportions is powerfully explaining is also the situation in the in the country of frail elderly people. I am not alone conurbation—in both Bournemouth and Poole. There in that—many of my colleagues from other Dorset are enormous pressures on adult social care. Given the constituencies have very high proportions of frail elderly demographics in both the conurbation and the rural people, and of course there are many others in other part of the county, those pressures will increase over parts of the country. The provision of support and care time. He mentioned the delivery of those services to his for those people is the single biggest determinant of the constituents by Dorset County Council. It may be effective functioning of the national health service in worth pointing out that that authority also delivers my part of Dorset. those services to the other districts in Dorset, including That is not atypical around the country, but the lack Christchurch. of support for those people, in particular the lack of domiciliary care to look after them when they come Sir Oliver Letwin: That is absolutely true. The sad back out of hospital, is not only a source of unending irony is that what I am saying is as important for the misery for many of my constituents—not just those citizens of Christchurch as for the rest of us. I am sure 13 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 14 that what my hon. Friend says about the need for just a moment or two ago: that the financial pressures accommodation is absolutely right. Bournemouth and on the two unitaries are also very great, for similar Poole have been in the lead on the number of elderly reasons. people migrating to those parts for many decades, long Anyway, we are where we are, and the options we face before he came to occupy his distinguished position. are to have either no reorganisation or to have the His predecessor in that seat—I am long in the tooth, so reorganisation proposed before us. None of us can deny I remember him well, as you will, Sir Henry—complained that those are the two available alternatives, which about the large number of frail, elderly people who had brings me to my last point—it is an important one and I to be supported and the lack of money to do so. That is hope Opposition Members consider it. It is critical to not a sudden development—it has just got much, much recognise that, although this reorganisation is, very worse over the years. Finally, I will say something importantly, about saving money by administrative about the other kind of efficiency to which the Minister overhead-cutting, it is not just about that. When there is referred. one chief executive instead of many, one set of directors instead of many and one set of councillors instead of Sir Christopher Chope: I am grateful to my right hon. many, a lot of money is saved, but it is not about just Friend for the courteous way in which he has dealt with that in the long run—it is not even primarily about that. these issues throughout. Would that that had been the The biggest problem we face in dealing with the situation with all my colleagues! social care crisis in Dorset and with the interactions Putting that to one side, he has referred to the financial between social care and the health service, which is very pressures. One of the consequences of what is being typical in many parts of the country, is integration debated today is that Dorset County Council will no between social care, housing and the health service. longer have the resources coming to it from Christchurch Unless it can be so arranged that the individuals who council tax payers, because Christchurch will be moved are frail and elderly preponderantly live in places where out of the county council area. That will reduce the it is affordable to look after them, rather than in far-flung income of the county council. From figures we have distant villages where it is incredibly expensive to service received, Dorset County Council receives more income them at the level of care they need and deserve, and from Christchurch than it spends on services in unless absolute integration is arranged between the Christchurch. Therefore, can my right hon. Friend explain operations of social services and of the health service, why the Government have rejected any suggestion that we will not cure the underlying demographic pressures Christchurch could be part of a rural unitary? Can he and problems for our health and social care service. also explain in answer to our hon. Friend the Member At the moment, the county council has no influence for Bournemouth West why, if both Bournemouth on social housing policy. It is very difficult for the and Poole have those pressures, they refuse to merge health service to know with whom it is meant to be together to save about £10 million a year, and insist negotiating because the many different councils have that they will not merge unless they can also have different relationships with those frail and elderly people Christchurch? and are involved in some way or another in looking afterthem.VariousLabourandLiberalDemocratMembers and I have joined together in an effort to cure this Sir Oliver Letwin: I think it would be right, in the problem eventually at a national level, by seeking to spirit of this discussion, if I were to answer that set of persuade Her Majesty’s Treasury to create a hypothecated points fully and then move back to the remainder of my national fund to look after both health and social care. intended speech. That proposition was adopted by all the Select Committees In the first place, what my hon. Friend says is absolutely of the House in the Liaison Committee, and is being right. It is a matter of undeniable statistics that, although considered by the Prime Minister. I very strongly hope costs reduce when Christchurch moves out of the county that, as a nation, we will move in that direction, but it area, so revenues reduce slightly more. That is certainly will not happen tomorrow. true. Those figures have been taken fully into account in Meanwhile, we in Dorset desperately need to be able the calculation of the net effect on the rural county, as it to create that level of integration if we are to tackle at will be in the unitary form. It is true that, from our the root a problem that is causing human misery as well point of view in the rural county, we would have been as great strain on those operating in both our social care yet better off if Christchurch had been part of that. and our health service system as professionals. On those Speaking for myself, I would have seen no objection to grounds alone, if there were no other, if there were not that whatsoever from our point of view. I do not think large local support and if it had not been the case that any of my hon. Friends representing other constituencies this came from the bottom up, we would still need to do in what will be the rural county would have had any this. Those are enormously important supportive things. objection either. The problem social care and we need to tackle it. The While we are at it, I regret that my hon. Friend only way we will do so is by carrying through this decided to pursue the fantasy of joining up with Hampshire integration, so I very much hope the Minister will have rather than trying at an early stage to join up with the his way in doing the right thing. rural county with some financial settlement, which would have made this much simpler. But that is past history, alas. I cannot answer in detail why the two unitaries in 3.12 pm the conurbation believe it so essential to have the revenues from Christchurch as part of the overall transformation, Sir Christopher Chope: It is a pleasure to follow my but I suspect it has a great deal to do with what my hon. right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset. I agree Friend the Member for Bournemouth West mentioned with many of the more general comments that he makes 15 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 16

[Sir Christopher Chope] Sir Christopher Chope: My hon. Friend has always been younger than me, even going back to the time about the need to ensure that we get more rationality in when he helped me enormously as a student, when I the operation of services at local government level, and was the Member for Southampton, Itchen. I am eternally better integration of social services and the health service. grateful to him for his help during those campaigns in It was interesting that my right hon. Friend said that Southampton. he was not in favour of top-down solutions, and then However, it would be much easier to sell this project referred to the fact that Christchurch going in with to the people of Christchurch, who are manifestly opposed Hampshire would be a fantasy. Christchurch was in to it at the moment, if there were more understanding Hampshire until 1974 when, in such a top-down proposal, on the part of Bournemouth of how much the people it was forced out of Hampshire into Dorset. of Christchurch resent the prospect, under delayed harmonisation and equalisation proposals, of them cross- Sir Oliver Letwin: My hon. Friend’shistory is impeccable, subsidising the people of Bournemouth and Poole by but does he recognise that the problem is that Hampshire up to £200 a year at band D for up to 20 years. That has does not want to have Christchurch back? caused an enormous amount of resistance. The councillors in Christchurch went into a joint Sir Christopher Chope: My right hon. Friend is wrong working party with councillors from Bournemouth and about that. In the discussions with Christchurch, Hampshire Poole, but one of the conditions for entering it was that said that it needed assurance that it would be a net Bournemouth and Poole should accept that in the event beneficiary of the resources from Christchurch in of a new unitary combining Bournemouth, Poole and Hampshire rather than in Dorset. Christchurch tried to Christchurch, it would be fair and equitable that everyone persuade Dorset County Council to make that information at band D should pay the same council tax from year publicly available so that Hampshire could be reassured one. That is the way to achieve general support for a that it would benefit financially from having Christchurch new council. General support for a new council is not transferred back into Hampshire. achieved by telling residents at band D in Grange ward in Christchurch, which includes some of the most deprived Unfortunately, even as we speak, Dorset County housing estates in the whole of the west of England, Council has not finalised the desegregation costs of that they will be cross-subsidising people living in splitting Christchurch at the borough council and upper Sandbanks, and other areas in the conurbation with tier levels from the rest of Dorset. We are told that those really smart properties, for up to 20 years. It is a pity figures will not be available until the middle of June. that my hon. Friend has not been able to persuade his councillors to be more reasonable about that. Conor Burns: Will my hon. Friend give way? Indeed, I do not blame my hon. Friend for this, but some of his councillors, and the leader of Bournemouth Sir Christopher Chope: Hold on a moment! The council in particular, have been throwing petrol on the consequence of those figures not being made available fire by pushing through proposals such as borrowing is that Hampshire, in the short window of opportunity £70 million to buy an asset that is estimated to be worth given by the Secretary of State, was unable to sign up to £50 million after development. They are borrowing the idea of entering negotiations with Christchurch on money when Christchurch has no borrowings—it is transferring Christchurch to Hampshire. debt-free and has been prudent all these years.Christchurch Before I give way to my hon. Friend, may I point out has raised its council tax over the years in order to another problem? The Secretary of State in his balance its books. Meanwhile, Bournemouth and Poole announcement of 7 November changed the goalposts. kept their council taxes artificially reduced, leading to Bournemouth and Poole were not willing to merge the financial crisis they now have. They are hoping that together on their own. A proposal that involved the burghers of Christchurch will come along and bail Christchurch leaving Dorset and going into Hampshire them out, and they will be assisted in that way. fell foul of the fact that Poole and Bournemouth in effect had a veto. My right hon. Friend’s aspiration for Christchurch to stay in Dorset was made non-viable by Conor Burns: On the point of the council tax freeze, the Government’s insistence, in changing the rules, that that of course was the policy of the coalition Government Bournemouth and Poole should each have a veto over that the councils in Bournemouth and Poole implemented. proposals that did not involve Christchurch joining I am not necessarily in favour of criticising Conservative Bournemouth and Poole—the very same reason. I shall councillors for following Conservative Government policy. now give way to my hon. Friend. There is a very contentious point that worries people. On the point of the 20-year period to council tax The Chair: Order. I would be very grateful if that can equalisation, has my hon. Friend had any indication of Coke in the front row could be put out of sight from a Minister that a period anywhere close to 20 years because it is appearing on the webcam. would be acceptable to them? I have not.

Conor Burns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and Sir Christopher Chope: There was a meeting of officials neighbour for giving way. Before he leaves the point from Dorset councils with the Department in June about Hampshire, as he is aware, Bournemouth was 2016, before the consultation papers were finalised. also in Hampshire until Ted Heath’s changes in the That meeting has been confirmed in answer to a 1970s. The difference between our approaches appears parliamentary question that I tabled. I have been told to be that we have come to terms with the 1970s and that the minutes and notes of that meeting no longer think it better to start from where we are today. exist, if they ever did. I have been told by the section 151 17 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 18 officer at Christchurch Borough Council, who was present which they announced on 26 February, they have not at that meeting, that, in response to representations on yet said where they stand on the fraught issue of the big council tax gap between Poole and Bournemouth, harmonisation. Their criteria for judging the issue are and Christchurch—more than £200 at band D—the so broad and vague that it gives them absolute discretion officials said that the Government would agree to a over what answer they provide. As the issue has now 20-year harmonisation period. It was on the basis of been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for that statement made by Government officials, presumably Bournemouth West, I hope that when the Minister with the knowledge and support of Government Ministers, responds he will say unequivocally what harmonisation that the consultation document was drawn up, using and equalisation period the Government will set in the figures based on a 20-year harmonisation period. As event of these orders going through. my hon. Friend knows, if there is a 20-year harmonisation period, that means that the figures look a lot more Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I congratulate my hon. attractive than they do for a much shorter harmonisation Friend on the campaign that he has run energetically on period. this issue in the House of Commons. For those of us Indeed, I questioned council officers in Dorset about not from Dorset, am I right in thinking that the situation that at the time. They explained that although the could be summed up in this way: what is proposed is a shorter harmonisation period would benefit my constituents good deal for Poole and Bournemouth but a very bad in Christchurch, it would drive a coach and horses deal for people in Christchurch, and the Government through the financial prospectus that had been produced, have decided to impose a bad deal on Christchurch because it would eliminate almost all the savings from against people’s wishes, for the benefit of people in the reorganisation. The reorganisation was presented in Bournemouth and Poole? That seems to be my hon. the consultation on the basis of net savings, but a lot of Friend’s case. Am I right in that analysis? those savings were increased income from the people of Christchurch, to the benefit of those in Poole and Sir Christopher Chope: That is a succinct but absolutely Bournemouth. This is a long answer to my hon. Friend’s correct analysis, and if it was not correct, the people of intervention, but the short answer is that the Government Christchurch would not have voted as they did. More did know and encouraged this. than 17,000 people went to a local poll to express the view that they do not want to be subject to Bournemouth Jim McMahon rose— and Poole control. I say “control” because in a Poole, Bournemouth and Christchurch unitary authority, Sir Christopher Chope: I will finish the answer in a Christchurch will have 13% of the councillors, which minute, but first I give way to the hon. Gentleman. means that they would always be outvoted and in a minority.The green-belt area around Christchurch would be open to being removed at the behest of Bournemouth Jim McMahon: I would be interested to know whether and Poole, so that they could land grab and so on. the Government indicated any intention during that discussion to have a property revaluation for council tax purposes at any point in the transition period, Conor Burns: I accept fully the poll that took place in because if it were taken to its 20-year extreme, the Christchurch, and the information put before the electorate property prices would be 47 years out of date. by my hon. Friend and others. He has made the point in a number of speeches in the House and Westminster Hall that Bournemouth has an eye on the Christchurch Sir Christopher Chope: Exactly. I obviously was not green belt for development, but there is no evidence for party to the conversation, but as I understand it, nothing that at all, and there have been no statements to that about potential changes to council tax or business rate effect by Bournemouth or Poole. What evidence can my valuations was discussed. hon. Friend provide to substantiate the allegation that Subsequently, last October the Government indicated he has repeatedly made about the green belt? to council officers across Dorset that they were no longer content with a 20-year harmonisation period, Sir Christopher Chope: There is masses of evidence. and that the period would be much shorter. That was Obviously it is coming not openly from councillors, but confirmed to me by the chief official at the Department—he from landowners and developers who know well the is in the room today—when I met him on 7 November council set up in Bournemouth. I know from talking to at the behest of the Secretary of State. I was told then people in Christchurch that that is exactly what they that the Government thought that the maximum period have in mind. Sadly, I must point out to my hon. Friend for harmonisation would be five years, but in practice it that our Government are really giving a green light to has never been more than two years in the past, and a councils to remove land from the green belt. That is a maximum of two or three years is likely.A harmonisation Government policy that could not be implemented at period of two or three years would completely transform the moment in Christchurch, because Christchurch is projections on savings, yet there has been no update not willing to put forward such a proposal to the from the councils to show what the impact would be in Government. However,a big conurbation of Bournemouth, practice. Poole and Christchurch combined would be able to The issue of harmonisation is fraught. The Government make such an application to the Government. There invited all councils in Dorset to make submissions on would be only 10 councillors from the Christchurch harmonisation in time for the 8 January deadline. I constituency in the new unitary authority, compared know that Christchurch did that, but not whether other with 33 at the moment. There would be a significant councils did. Unlike with the Government’s decision to reduction in the number of councillors from Christchurch go ahead with the two unitary authorities proposal, and, consequently, in their influence. 19 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 20

Toby Perkins: If I have understood the hon. Gentleman “However,given the scale of opposition to the proposal expressed correctly, he says that he is aware of what the policy of both by Christchurch BC and by its residents, we consider that this council—which does not have any policies because these instruments give rise to issues of public policy likely to be of it does not yet exist—will be on building on the green interest to the House.” belt. I can only imagine that he says that because he I hope that, in looking at this issue, hon. Members will knows what kind of people will stand for election for indeed have regard to what that Committee said and to the Conservative party. If he suggested that people the appendix to its report. voted Labour at the next general election, there might That draws attention to the outcome of the poll. My be an Administration that was against building on the hon. Friend the Minister said that some councillors green belt, which might solve his problem. from Christchurch had written to the Government saying that they rather fancied the idea of being councillors in a new unitary authority and thought it would be in the Sir Christopher Chope: The hon. Gentleman talks best interests of Christchurch residents that that should about upcoming elections. I fear that if these proposals happen. When that was debated and voted on at the go ahead, it will be doomsday for a lot of Conservatives Christchurch Borough Council meeting in January, not in Dorset. I see my hon. Friend the Member for Poole in a single councillor raised his hand to vote against what his place. Poole Liberal Democrats and the Poole People was proposed—in contrast to what happened a year party are dead against these proposals—they are as previously. The reason was that they knew that if they concerned about them as people from Christchurch. If did so, the electors in their wards would have been this change is forced on the people of Christchurch, completely at a loss to understand how they could be what hope will people standing in Christchurch as insulted by their elected members. Conservative candidates have of getting elected? Remember that at the borough council elections in Years ago, when the Conservative party brought in Christchurch in 2015 there was no talk whatsoever of the right to buy,the Labour party lost its last representatives any structural change. Indeed, at that time there were in Christchurch. The Christchurch Labour councillors plaudits all round for the savings, extending to several at that time felt strongly that the right to buy was the million pounds each year, being achieved as a result of correct policy and, because they did not like the way the Christchurch and East Dorset working together in Labour party opposed it, left the party. However, in so partnership with one chief executive, one set of chief doing, they left a legacy of independents. They did not officers and one headquarters premises. As a consequence join the Conservative party; they became independents. of what is proposed today, that partnership will be If this shambles is allowed to develop in the way that broken, with all the dis-economies of scale that will the Government seem to want it to develop, it is likely flow from that. That joint working will be undermined, that there will be a rise in independently minded people and one part of the partnership will be set against the across the conurbation and a rise in support for the other. The Government have not faced up to that, Labour party. To give the Labour party its due, it came which is another reason to be concerned about the a good second in Christchurch at the last general election. proposals. Okay,it was 25,000-plus votes behind me,but it nevertheless I would also bring the Committee’s attention to this came a good second and made a big improvement on its point, which the Minister anticipated I would make. previous performance. The background is that, under section 2 of the 2007 Act, the Government have the power to invite proposals for local government reorganisation from two tier to Toby Perkins: Would it therefore be reasonable to say single tier. That is indeed what the Government recently that it was a two-horse race? did in Northamptonshire. The 2007 Act also gave the then Government the power to insist that proposals be brought forward, but that power was time-limited and Sir Christopher Chope: I will go along with that, yes. has expired. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, who is a betting man, knows exactly how to bet on two-horse There was no power in that Act for councils to make races. their own proposals to the Government where there was not consent. That is where the regulations are problematic, Let me return to the issue of consent. Neither my because they say that the 2007 Act shall be changed hon. Friend the Minister nor others drew the Committee’s retrospectively to operate in a way that allows councils attention to the 26th report of the House of Lords to put submissions to the Secretary of State without Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which was their having invited such submissions. As the Minister published in April. That Committee drew specific attention said, the regulations being used to try to achieve that to these instruments—particularly the draft modification require the consent of at least one councillor in a regulations, which we are discussing at the moment—and particular category. to the local advisory poll in December 2017, However, during the passage of the 2016 Act in “in which 84% (numbering 17,676 votes) of those taking part December 2015, the Government said they would give a voted ‘no’ to the changes.” guarantee that powers to override the democratically It reports in its conclusions at paragraph 11: expressed will of an individual council would not be “MHCLG has told us that Ministers have made clear that they used for that purpose. The background to that was a will apply the criteria for local government restructuring ‘in the Back-Bench amendment to the Bill that was considered round’for the area subject to reorganisation, rather than considering on Report, which is now reflected in section 15(5) to (8). whether the criteria would be met in relation to each individual I and my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough council area.” (Sir Edward Leigh), along with one or two others, It goes on: expressed concern during the debate on that amendment 21 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 22 that, if literally interpreted, the power it created could persuade Councils to have a conversation about merger rather be used against a council against its will. I sought than to force them to merge against their will.” various undertakings in that debate, but the junior Nathalie Lieven QC goes on to say: Minister was tied to his brief and unable to satisfy “Debates in Parliament are only admissible”— either me or my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough that is, in a court of law— that the powers would not be used in the adverse way that we feared. “where the meaning of the statute is unclear and ambiguous. In this case s.15 is perfectly clear on its face, so what the Minister Then—this is relevant, because it is how this came said is not admissible to seek to prevent him from acting under about—my hon. Friend and I spoke to the then Secretary s.15. The correct forum for holding the Minister to account, for of State during another Division on Report and said arguably giving an assurance that he is now reneging on, is in that if he did not give a stronger undertaking on Third Parliament itself. The courts will not enforce an assurance given Reading, we would divide the House. The Secretary of to Parliament, and will be clear that this is a matter which should State told us that he would give us the undertaking that be raised in Parliament. On the face of it there does seem to be an inconsistency between what the junior Minister was telling we sought. It was on that basis that I asked the Secretary Parliament”— of State this specific question on Third Reading: that was in November last year— “Will my right hon. Friend give the House an assurance that amendment 56”— “and the decision of the SoS in this case, but this is a matter…to raise politically, rather than giving rise to a legal argument.” the one that changed what is now section 15(5) to (8)— So we have a situation where leading counsel takes “will not be used by the Government to force change on any local authority?” the same view as I take, and took, and indeed relied upon during the consultation period in the autumn of The Secretary of State replied: 2016. “I will indeed.”—[Official Report, 7 December 2015; Vol. 603, c. 822.] My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough then Sir Oliver Letwin: I think my hon. Friend’s answer to pressed the point, citing his fear that the power would the Opposition spokesman was a very long way of be used to impose changes in Lincolnshire that he and saying no. I want to get it on the record that the rest of his people did not want. The Secretary of State went us—I think I speak for all my other colleagues in further and said that the powers were designed to bring Dorset—do not see this whole process in the way that councils together into discussion and not to impose the my hon. Friend does. will of the Government on one council, as compared with another, against its consent. First of all, as my hon. Friend has just quoted his own legal counsel as saying, the Act is perfectly clear in I have since spoken to our former colleague, the the powers that it gives the Secretary of State. Secondly, junior Minister at the time, who told me of his horror there is a world of difference, as the Opposition spokesman when he heard what the Secretary of State said in said, between this situation and the Government getting response to the questions that I and my hon. Friend the through Parliament a top-down reorganisation that is Member for Gainsborough put to him on Third Reading. resisted by the people and local governments in an area. Our erstwhile hon. Friend, who sadly was defeated at That may or may not be a good thing to do in some the general election, took the view that what was being cases; it is not what is going on here. said was thoroughly misleading—that is what he says. What we have is a situation where I and my hon. Friend, The assurance that my hon. Friend hopes he got from and the House, were misled by the Government—I am the Secretary of State, but which the Secretary of State not saying deliberately—and made to believe that the never gave, was that Christchurch would have a veto on Government would not introduce changes against the the whole reorganisation, even though the reorganisation will of elected councillors. is earnestly desired by and desperately needed by the rest of the county. It is perfectly proper that the Act should give the Secretary of State the power, as my hon. Jim McMahon: I, too, seek clarity on this matter, Friend’s legal counsel admits it manifestly does, to because there is a difference between the Secretary of accept a plea from almost all—94%—of the people of State devising a scheme and then effectively forcing Dorset for reorganisation, even if 6% of them, or the councils to accept it. That is not what is on the Order majority of 6% of them, do not like it. Paper today. During the discussions that took place, was there any conversation that would effectively give any component council a right of veto? Sir Christopher Chope: My right hon. Friend has made a long intervention, but he misunderstands my point about leading counsel. Leading counsel is saying Sir Christopher Chope: If the hon. Gentleman looks that it seems quite clear that my hon. Friend the Member at the whole context of this debate and the whole for Gainsborough and I were given an assurance that Hansard report, I think that he will reach the conclusion has now been reneged upon by the Government, and that a clear undertaking was given by the Government. that redress is to be had not through the courts, but Perhaps I can pray in aid the written opinion—it was politically. That is why I am raising the matter in this referred to earlier—from Nathalie Lieven QC at Blackstone Committee. There may be quite a lot of people in this Chambers in response to a request from Christchurch Committee who regard it as very poor form for the Borough Council. In it, she says: Government to go back on their word in terms of an “I was shown…various passages from the Hansard debates assurance that has been given to Parliament. Indeed, I where the Minister appeared to assure Sir Christopher and another raised the issue with Mr Speaker on a point of order in concerned MP, Edward Leigh, that the power would be used to March 2017. Mr Speaker said it was not right to think 23 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 24

[Sir Christopher Chope] very grateful to the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton for objecting to our dealing with the two statutory that just because there had been a change of Minister or instruments together. That has enabled us to have a Government, the word given to the House could be proper debate on this very important matter, which reneged upon. covers retrospection. I have not yet really got into The first time I had any inkling that the Government retrospection, but the letter before action from Christchurch were minded to renege on that undertaking was in Borough Council draws attention to the fact that it is March 2017. That is when I raised the point of order on important for Committees to look at retrospection before the Floor of the House. I also wrote to the Prime the matter goes to the courts, with all the problems that Minister expressing my concern. As a result of that flow from that. letter, she intervened. In the end, although it was expected that the Government would announce a “minded to” 3.55 pm decision on the application in March 2017, they did not do so. There was then a period of purdah, as my right Rishi Sunak: It is with some trepidation that I attempt hon. Friend will remember, for the local elections. That to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, was then closely followed by the general election, which not only because he held this brief a long time ago and amazingly was only just short of one year ago. is a distinguished Member of this House, but because After the general election, all the Conservative councillors when I was a small boy growing up in Southampton, his who had been re-elected in my constituency wrote to was perhaps the first local MP’s name that I knew. I put the Prime Minister asking her to intervene in this matter on the record my respect and admiration for his persistence to ensure that Christchurch Borough Council was not in pursuing this course. It is right that we have a proper abolished against the consent of the people. The Prime thorough, detailed debate on the issues he has raised, Minister wrote back in October 2017. In her letter of which we will no doubt continue to discuss after we 9 October, she said: consider this statutory instrument and move on to the next. “I understand that conversations are now continuing between the affected councils and interested parties to see if, and how, an I would also like to thank my right hon. Friend the agreement can be reached that is supported by all of the councils.” Member for West Dorset and my hon. Friends the The clear implication of that was that the Prime Minister Members for North Dorset and for South Dorset for accepted that there had been an undertaking that all their contributions. I also note the presence of my right councils should reach an agreement, with the emphasis hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East on the need for councils reasonably to participate in this (Mr Ellwood) and my hon. Friends the Members for rather than just saying, “We are not talking to you.” Poole and for Mid Dorset and North Poole, who I am That was the concern expressed in that debate. If a sure we will hear from later. council had an absolute veto, it could say, “I am not We have covered so many issues. In the short time I prepared to parley with you. I am not prepared to have have to respond, I will summarise and pick up in detail any discussion.” The Government perfectly reasonably in the next part. In short, I echo the comments of my said, “We want to encourage councils to enter into right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset. He put discussions and debate to try to move forward with it very well: ultimately, what we are discussing today is consensus or consent.” about people. Often frail and elderly, they are the people whom we as MPs or councillors across Dorset have the Conor Burns: Will my hon. Friend give way? privilege to represent. Those representatives have thought long and hard about how best to serve those people, The Chair: Before the hon. Member for Christchurch and how best to provide the public services that their gives way, I remind him that the Minister needs five constituents rely on in the financial climate and changing minutes to wind up. There will be further debate on the demographics they face. second order, as the motions are being taken separately. Those councillors and people in the local area, who I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman were to bear know their constituents best, have put forward the that in mind and perhaps trouble the House for no more proposals we are considering. As I opened, I will close: than one more minute. these are locally led proposals, which have been developed and supported extensively across Dorset. We have heard Conor Burns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and to a lot about polls, retrospection, invitations and you, Sir Henry. For the benefit of the Committee, it is reorganisations but we should leave with this point in my understanding that Christchurch Borough Council our heads: across the entire area, including in Christchurch, is now fully participating in the joint working and there is a good deal of support for these proposals. preparations for the implementation of the new authority. They will improve local government in the area, as we heard so eloquently from my right hon. Friend the Sir Christopher Chope: Christchurch Borough Council Member for West Dorset. They will improve local was doing that under duress in the spirit of co-operation, government for the people who live in those places. The but specifically on the basis that it had not withdrawn geographies we are considering make logical sense. As its objections; that there would be no period of the Committee considers these undoubtedly complex harmonisation; and that in the event of there being a and difficult matters, I leave them with that in mind. new unitary authority, all band D taxpayers would pay This is not a top-down, imposed reorganisation. the same from day one. The Government have responded constructively and I take your point, Sir Henry. I had not realised that diligently to the proposals that were put forward. It has we are now approaching 4 o’clock and we started at taken an incredible amount of time, care and patience half-past 2, so we have only got five more minutes. I am to consider those proposals carefully. That has included 25 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 26 engaging with my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch that can be achieved. When budget reductions are placed and others on many occasions on the points he has on local authorities, it is incumbent on all local councils consistently raised. I am fully confident that the proposals to consider where they can save money on administration in front of the Committee deserve our support and will and processes and so protect front-line services. benefit the good people of Dorset in the years to come. Let us be clear: this is a condition of the Government’s I commend the regulations to the Committee. making. Some local authorities are having to think the Question put, That the Committee has considered the unthinkable—we have heard some of the objections to draft Dorset (Structural Changes) (Modification of the this suggestion today—and in many local authorities Local Government and Public Involvement in Health theneighbourhoodservicestheydeliverarebeingcompletely Act 2007) Regulations 2018. undermined and diminished. There is increased demand for adult social care and children’s safeguarding, but no Sir Christopher Chope: No. resources to follow through, meet that demand, and achieve the type of society to which we aspire. Those are the results of a political choice. There is not enough The Chair: That is invalid. money in the local government system properly to fund Question agreed to. local authorities in the future, and that is what underpins Resolved, this reorganisation. This is not about community identity or a sense of belonging and place; it is about how we That the Committee has considered the draft Dorset (Structural balance the books when the money is running out. Changes) (Modification of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007) Regulations 2018. In 2010, the central Government grant made up 46% of the local government funding base, but by 2019, that will have fallen to 8%. Today, that grant is at its Draft Bournemouth, Dorset and Poole lowest level as a proportion of our GDP since 1979, and (Structural Changes) Order 2018 by 2020 it will be at its lowest level since 1948. By that time we will have a £5 billion funding gap, and we as a 3.59 pm nation will not be able to afford to meet the demands of older people who are living longer and needing social care. Rishi Sunak: I beg to move, When we debate social care, we often think about old That the Committee has considered the draft Bournemouth, Dorset and Poole (Structural Changes) Order 2018. people who need care in their home, who are forced into hospital when they should not be there, or who are in It is a pleasure to commence debate on the second hospital because they need to be there but are unable to order. The order, which is made under section 7 of the go home at the appropriate time because of the lack of 2007 Act, has several provisions. First, it will introduce community services to support them. However, the bulk a single tier of local government for a new local government of social care spending in this country is not on people area, comprising the existing boroughs of Bournemouth, over the age of 65, but on people under 65; it is Christchurch and Poole, and a single tier of local spending on mental health services, support for physical government for a new local government area covering disabilities, and the range of support we give to our the remainder of the county of Dorset. It will wind up community. The Government are genuinely considering and dissolve the counties and boroughs of Bournemouth how we can fund public services in the future. There has and Poole, and the county of Dorset and its districts, been talk of some kind of new tax that might bridge the and it will provide appropriate transitional arrangements, gap between social care and health, but if all that does is a shadow authority and a shadow executive for each address social care for over-65s, but not the broader new unitary area. Finally, it will establish, in agreement spectrum of social care that local authorities deliver, it with the councils, new electoral arrangements. The order will fall short of balancing many councils’ books and provides contingency warding arrangements for the meeting local community demand. May 2019 elections, but it is important to note that we expect the Local Government Boundary Commission We know that any reorganisation requires a lot of for England to undertake a full electoral review of the time, organisational discipline and skills such as project area in time for those elections. management and building new teams, even before addressing matters such as estates, computer systems, The order gives practical force to our debate and the holding of data, and the myriad different arrangements restructuring that we have already considered. This is a and contracts that local authorities have in place, with locally led proposal submitted by the Dorset councils, systems that do not talk to each other. That is not which if implemented will, we believe, improve local funny. It is for the Members of Parliament for those government and service delivery in the area. It represents areas, for Government, for the councillors and for the a credible geography, and commands a good deal of professional support in those local authorities to ensure local support. I have full confidence in the local area to that the transition is carried out, but even hon. Members implement unitarisation by next April, enabling elections who support these proposals because they see how for the new councils in May next year. On that basis, I money is being taken away and demand is going through commend the order to the Committee. the roof ought to recognise that, even with reorganisation, a multimillion-pound funding gap will remain. 4.1 pm The official Opposition have tried our best at every Jim McMahon: The bulk of the assessment undertaken corner, in every debate and in every campaign to raise by the local authorities and PricewaterhouseCoopers, the profile of the financial pressure of adult social care which underpins the argument for this reorganisation, and children’s safeguarding. I know that some people in is compelling. It points to local authorities that will be government do understand this, but I do not believe the more financially sustainable, and mentions efficiencies Treasury understands it at all—if it does, it certainly 27 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 28

[Jim McMahon] and Poole councils, I also pay tribute to the officials in the Department, who have been incredibly professional has not prioritised it. The Treasury has not come up in working through the proposals. In particular, I pay with an answer to a system that is increasingly under tribute to Paul Rowsell, who has been involved throughout strain and will break. and who our people in Bournemouth and Poole could I make this plea to Conservative Members: the not speak more highly of. I thank him for what he has fundamental reason why we are here is to provide done. sustainable public services in the future, but even if we My right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset let the SI before us go through, we know the situation is spoke movingly about adult social care. I want to bear just not sustainable. That case has to be taken to the out what he said earlier. When the process began, he Chancellor and to the Treasurer. It is incumbent on was far from converted to the cause of local government every Conservative Member to ensure that in the next reorganisation, but he moved over time as we explored Budget there is sufficient funding to address the chronic it. He has always been analytical and facts-driven in his underfunding of local government. approach to politics—there should be more like him—and the numbers ultimately persuaded him that it was the 4.7 pm right course of action for councils across Dorset, including Bournemouth and Poole. Conor Burns: One normally says that it is a delight to serve under your chairmanship, but as I am not serving My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch had an on the Committee, it is nice to be in your presence, exchange on council tax equalisation, on which I would Sir Henry. I am grateful to you for calling me to speak like some clarity from the Minister. If we faced a before my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch position where council tax equalisation took place over resumes his remarks. That guarantees that I might get in 20 years, I would join my hon. Friend the Member for and get a few things on the record. Christchurch in opposing the proposals—although it would make no difference because I do not have a vote. This is a rare occasion that every Member of Parliament We do not need anything like 20 years. It should be for Dorset is gathered together in the same room. That done in no more than six years, possibly with equalisation should demonstrate to our electorates the seriousness in year seven or maybe in a slightly shorter timeframe. with which we all approach the orders that are before the Committee this afternoon. I am pleased to see my Sir Christopher Chope: Why does my hon. Friend not right hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for accept that it would be fairer and better to organise a Bournemouth East has come back from his Ministry to new unitary authority on the basis that everybody pays join us in solidarity. the same band D council tax from the outset?

Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I also make the Conor Burns: I will address that point a little later. important point that the proposals that have come from My hon. Friend will acknowledge that it will require local councillors are made in full knowledge that there substantial council tax increases for my constituents in will be fewer local councillors in Bournemouth, Poole, Bournemouth and Poole—I am the only one who represents Christchurch and the rest of rural Dorset. Local councillors both Bournemouth and Poole. They will need to raise will be many of the biggest losers. That is because many their council tax to come up to the level in Christchurch. of them feel passionately about protecting local services. Sir Christopher Chope: Or Christchurch could reduce Conor Burns: My hon. Friend and neighbour is absolutely its council tax. correct. There are many people who will be making a sacrifice when these changes come into being; there are Conor Burns: Christchurch may wish to do other also many, I assume, who do not think it will be them things in the new arrangements to protect its identity and are supporting the proposals for those reasons. that may require some claim on the council tax. I will My hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for come on to that in a moment. Christchurch has fought a doughty, determined, vigorous I would like to inject a note of positivity. It is not all and principled campaign. I pay tribute to him for about frail, vulnerable old people, although it is massively standing up for what he believes to be the interests of about that. It is an enormous opportunity. It is a his constituency and community in Christchurch. He fantastic fresh start for the conurbation, part of which I pointed out that I helped him a little bit in his campaign serve. If the Committee endorses this instrument, the for re-election in Southampton, Itchen in 1992. I first new authority of Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole met him some 27 years ago this October, when I enrolled will have a population of more than 400,000 people. It at Southampton University. I suppose I had a little part will be the 16th-largest urban area in the United Kingdom. to play in him now being a Member of Parliament for The ability that that will give the authority to punch Christchurch and standing up for his constituents, because above its weight and argue for its case to be considered we were unsuccessful in the campaign that I participated by central Government and internationally is why it is in, so he was liberated from Southampton and able to supported by the local enterprise partnership and by seek the nomination for Christchurch, which he won Dorset’s two world-class universities—Bournemouth back for us in 1997. University and the Arts University Bournemouth—which I pay tribute to the Minister and his predecessors. play an incredibly powerful role in getting our local area This process has been going on for a long time, through recognised as the fastest-growing digital economy in the two general elections, three Secretaries of State, and United Kingdom. It is also supported by our internationally countless Ministers for Local Government. On behalf renowned and recognised football club, which is safe of the chief executives and the leaders of Bournemouth again in the premiership for another season. 29 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 30

We have an enormous opportunity. Our conurbation We are not terribly well funded in Dorset. We could is recognised internationally. Many students come to punch more above our weight if we combine. As my Bournemouth to study at the universities or to learn hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West says, English at the language schools, and go away imbued Poole, Bournemouth and Christchurch are a natural fit with a love of the area that we are proud to serve. We as an area. We all prosper because of the businesses and can go out there now and argue our case for infrastructure. services within the conurbation. Many people in Poole Tomorrow I will go down to Bournemouth to the work in Bournemouth. Many people in Bournemouth official opening of the Pier Approach, funded by money work in Poole. In every general election I have ever that I argued for from the coastal communities fund. fought, I have always ended up canvassing somebody in The strength that we will have with all the Members of Bournemouth by mistake, and I think probably my Parliament from the conurbation coming together to hon. Friend will have done the same in Poole because make our case to central Government will be incredible. there are roads that are split between both of the That does something else as well. It recognises the current local authorities. difference that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch Poole has a long and glorious history and its own alluded to when he talked about the fact that Bournemouth identity, but we have to look to the future and be and Christchurch used to be in Hampshire. One can mindful of local services, which is why I have come to drive all the way through my Bournemouth West the reluctant decision to support the changes. I suspect constituency and eventually come to County Gates, the and I hope that the Committee will come to that view as historic border between Dorset and Hampshire. well. Bournemouth and Poole have a different identity, with Christchurch, to the rest of rural Dorset. That allows the two new councils to forge the right vision for themselves. 4.19 pm I end on the point about identity that my hon. Friend Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) talked about. I will fight any attempts to change the (Con): It is a great pleasure to serve under your mayoralties and civic functions of the existing councils, chairmanship, Sir Henry, or at least to appear before because they are very important for local dignity and you with you in the Chair, and a pleasure to see such pride and people feel a sense of belonging to them. But great interest in Dorset in the House of Commons. It is there will be an opportunity in the new arrangements also a pleasure to follow my hon. Friends. I agree for different areas to have their own town and parish entirely with my hon. Friends the Members for Poole councils that can further entrench and protect a sense of and for Bournemouth West and my right hon. Friend identity. There will be an opportunity for people in the Member for West Dorset. I, too, pay tribute to my Christchurch to seize and they will have our support. constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member This is not a takeover, as it has been presented as so for Christchurch; I well remember him campaigning often. It is about us coming together and forging something alongside me on the streets of Wimborne for the one new, where every voice will carry weight and every vision that we had for the Conservative party, and also opinion will matter. There will not be x number of for Dorset locally. I pay tribute to his campaign and I councillors from Christchurch, y from Bournemouth am sorry that we are on different sides of this argument. and z from Poole. There will be a total number of new My constituency is unique for many reasons, but it is councillors for one authority and each one will matter also unique—in Dorset at least, I believe—in that four and each opinion will count. local authorities serve it. They are Dorset County Council, I beg the indulgence of my colleagues and the Opposition. the Borough of Poole, East Dorset District Council and I pay tribute to the shadow Minister who has approached Purbeck District Council, and all four have worked this matter in a balanced and calm way, and I warmly hard to deliver high-quality services to residents while welcome that. The matter is too important for the recognising the budgetary pressures that affect all local future of our county for us to play politics. Every authorities. Dorset Member of Parliament and every councillor As we have heard, of the nine local authorities that who has put themselves forward for election in Dorset we are discussing, eight support the plans for reorganisation. has one thing in common: the desire to serve and do the As my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West best we can for the communities that have trusted us to said, this issue has been going on for some time. Last elected office. I urge my colleagues on both sides of the year, the Borough of Poole and Dorset County Council Committee to give us the chance to do even better for strongly supported the initial submissions, alongside the communities we care about. Bournemouth, West Dorset, Weymouth and Portland and North Dorset. Following the former Secretary of State’s letter in which he said that he was minded to 4.18 pm support the proposal, East Dorset and Purbeck followed Sir Robert Syms: I, too, admire my hon. Friend the suit. The changes have the support of the vast majority Member for Christchurch. He is a dogged parliamentarian of councillors, councils and, as you have heard, Sir Henry, and we all admire his contributions to this House even Members of Parliament. They are also backed by the when we disagree with him, as we do on this matter. Dorset local enterprise partnership; I do not think that Like my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset, point has been mentioned, but if it has, forgive me, I am a sceptic about reorganisation in general. However, because I missed it. Nearly 90% of local businesses I have to come to terms with the fact that the local recognise the opportunities that this reorganisation and councillors and officers in Poole take the view that a joined-up local government can bring. combination will mean a much better strategic direction This is a key moment for Dorset, as other hon. and will make savings, which will better protect local Members have said. I agree with my hon. Friend the services. Member for Poole, my constituency neighbour, that 31 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 32

[Michael Tomlinson] Richard Drax: My hon. Friend mentions south Dorset and Weymouth, so may I pay tribute to our chief historically we have not been as successful when bidding executive, Matt Prosser, who is the leader of our tri- for larger-scale projects as we might have been, yet there councillors and a superb chief executive? As I think is a clear need for greater infrastructure. I am thinking colleagues have mentioned, this move will see a lot of particularly of roads—north, south, east and west. people lose their jobs. Councils will, I believe, benefit significantly from speaking with fewer but stronger voices. Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend is right, and I too pay I have received very few emails or letters from residents tribute to Matt Prosser, and to the leaders of councils about local government reorganisation. I have received that cover my constituency—Councillor Graham Carr- significantly more about the need to protect services for Jones is the leader of North Dorset District Council, residents, and I believe that these proposals provide the and Councillor Spencer Flower leads East Dorset District opportunity to do just that. In my view, the biggest risk Council. Councillor Rebecca Knox is leader of the is any further delay in this process. Councils up and county council. They came together—this has been a down the country are coming together with the aim of salutary lesson for us all, and I firmly believe that that working to secure services, reduce costs and better serve was one of the lead motivators for seven of the eight their communities. Dorset has been proactive and should Members of Parliament representing constituencies in be congratulated and encouraged. Now is the time to the county to support them. They have tried all those get on with it. efficiency savings and had some signal success. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset is right. I have been in post for just three years, but in that 4.23 pm time I have noticed—as has my caseworker, Diana Simon Hoare: It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Mogg, who served my predecessor for 18 years—an Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole. I absolute peak in people contacting us, and coming to echo many of the comments made about the hon. advice surgeries with questions about children’s services, Member for Oldham West and Royton, who leads for special educational needs and statementing, rural transport, the Opposition on these matters, and the very careful and the provision of adult services. There has been a way he has dealt with the issue. He and I served for spike, and the hon. Member for Oldham West and some little time on the Local Government Association Royton was right to point out the indisputable fact that resources panel when we were both councillors. He was local government has shouldered a heavy burden as we the very respected leader of Oldham Council, and it is try to get the national finances back to some semblance nice to see him in his place today. of normality. Colleagues, irrespective of where we stand on these proposals, have argued with previous Secretaries These debates could be characterised as or could of State and with the Treasury to get a better funding come under the heading of 101 things that you wanted settlement for our county. to know about Dorset local government but were too afraid to ask. I notice that the Labour Whips, on their Twitter feed, have promoted this afternoon’s joust: Jim McMahon: Although austerity has bitten and every Department was expected to take some responsibility, “If anyone wants to watch the Tories having a fight about local government—there’s live entertainment going on in Committee the burden has fallen disproportionately on local room 9 now.” government. As it stands, the local government workforce is at its lowest since comparable records began, and the It must be a salutary lesson for colleagues on both sides central Government workforce is at its highest. of the House when the Whips come and tap them on the shoulder and say, “Would you mind serving for a few minutes on a Delegated Legislation Committee? It Simon Hoare: The hon. Gentleman is right, and in won’t take that long,” and in fact they have to rearrange the seven years that I was cabinet member for resources their diaries. But anyone who now wants to enter the on West Oxfordshire District Council, we faced such pub quizzes in their constituency with all sorts of questions issues, just as he will have done as a former leader of about Dorset will come top of the class. Oldham Council. He is right to point out that the local government family has shouldered the largest burden. Let us remind ourselves of why we have got to this point. The Minister has been absolutely right, as have It cannot be a coincidence that the proposals submitted other colleagues, in saying that this has been a grassroots to the Government command such comprehensive support. movement from the bottom up. This is not an impost, a Colleagues speaking in support of the proposal have diktat or some Act of Parliament forcing us to do it listed some of that support, and my checklist includes from central Government, but council officers, councillors, the local enterprise partnership, our town and parish statutory consultees, the public and other groups coming council association, the clinical commissioning group, together to say, “What have we done? What are the Dorset chamber of commerce, the Port of Poole, the issues? And where can we go?” It is not as if we are two universities, the police, seven of the eight Members starting from a position whereby nine councils in the of Parliament, and eight of the nine councils. county and unitary areas of Bournemouth and Poole Let me pause for a moment, because it is important have been working in splendid isolation. They have to put on the record that until some months ago, six frankly screwed the maximum amount of savings and councils in Dorset supported the reorganisation and efficiencies from collaborative working, be that in three did not—Purbeck and East Dorset District Councils Christchurch and East Dorset, North Dorset, West have been on a journey. They have forensically examined Dorset, Weymouth and Portland, or be it in Bournemouth the proposals, and after a period of time and reflection, and Poole. they came to the clear perception that this is really the 33 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 34 only song on the hymn sheet that will do the job that is Simon Hoare: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. needed. My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch In my part of the county, we are incredibly well served said that the proposal could mean “doomsday for a lot by hands-on, proactive and locally engaged town and of Conservatives in Dorset.” He might be right—I parish councils. Just last Friday, I met the clerk and believe that he will be wrong—but, in a way, it does not senior leadership of Blandford Forum Town Council, actually matter. It ill behoves us to suggest that the who are 100% behind the proposals and are egging motivation of public service rests entirely on being them on, because they see an enormous opportunity in tested against the balance of party political advantage. a slimmed down and more efficient local government Public service should trump everything. As a number of geography within the county to make even closer ties colleagues have pointed out, it is not that we Members with the communities they serve. of Parliament are turkeys voting for Christmas; but that My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West our councillors, having exhaustively explored and delivered alluded to the fact—I must confess that I am not a savings over three, four or five years now, realise that geographer in these matters—that one can start from this is the next inexorable step that has to be taken. the boundary of Poole, Christchurch or Bournemouth I say with as much respect as I can muster that and drive, walk or cycle through all three, and apart although those of us supporting the proposals in the from some rather nicely designed signs saying welcome political arena were described by my hon. Friend the to one or thank you for visiting the other, one frankly Member for Christchurch as ignorant and predators on does not know where one is. these matters—allegations to which I take exception and that I would certainly refute; although perhaps we Philip Davies: Will my hon. Friend give way? could be called those things, my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset could never be referred to as Simon Hoare: Of course I will give way to the sage of ignorant—we have come to the judgment that this is Dorset, my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley. right for public service. When we ask our constituents—often the most vulnerable Philip Davies: I am very grateful. My hon. Friend was in the county who are reliant on the locally provided giving us his definition of public service, and I just public services—whether they think that it is right to wondered whether he would include a Member of reduce the number of councils and councillors and, in Parliament who speaks up for what 84% of local residents so doing, continue to provide quality public services, or vote for in a poll. Would he call that public service, too? simply to manage provision that is declining quantitatively and qualitatively while saying, “By golly, do not worry, Simon Hoare: Rather like red wine—and even claret, we have preserved x officers, x buildings and x councillors”, Sir Henry—there is good ordinary and premier cru. I I would say from my experience of 12 years as a district will leave it to the Committee to work out which I think councillor, three years as a county councillor and two might be which. years as a parish councillor that most of our constituents My hon. Friend invites me to comment on the public are pretty normal people and they could not really give support for this proposal, and it has been there. The a toss, Sir Henry— councils were at great pains to ensure that the company that they commissioned had a proven track record, to The Chair: Order. Will the hon. Gentleman withdraw set beyond peradventure the results that it derived. As that last remark? my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset and my hon. Friend the Minister suggested, that provided a level of support for option 2b, which is what we have Simon Hoare: My apologies, Sir Henry. If it is been discussing this afternoon, across all geographies in unparliamentary, I will. I did not intend that. They the county, including within Christchurch—scientifically really could not give a— based and properly analysed. In echoing the thanks that my hon. Friend the Member Sir Oliver Letwin: A fig! for Bournemouth West gave to the officials at the then DCLG, which is now the Ministry of Housing, Simon Hoare: My right hon. Friend, as always, has Communities and Local Government, I also pay tribute the pithy word that I sought in vain. to the huge professionalism of Paul Rowsell—who, I believe I am right in saying, is a resident of Christchurch Our constituents really could not give a fig how the and steward of the priory and who has a huge knowledge product is arrived at as long as there is a product for of the county—and the clear and sensible way that he them to access and a service for them to use. has dealt with these matters.

Jim McMahon: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Conor Burns: We know the poll result in Christchurch and we understand the divisions within the council and the population of Christchurch, so does my hon. Friend Simon Hoare: I will. agree that if the new local authority is forged, there will be a special responsibility on all of us in the rest of the Jim McMahon: Perhaps this will help the hon. Gentleman conurbation to work incredibly hard to allay the fears to regain his composure. Does he accept that although that have been built up in getting to this point? the public absolutely want to see more efficient public service, local identity is really important? No reorganisation Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. should try to redesign local identity that people feel “Magnanimous in victory and gracious in defeat”, I strongly about. think is the old phrase—I forget the order; it may be the 35 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 36

[Simon Hoare] I should be prepared to wager a small amount of money with my hon. Friend or any member of the other way around. That is the test. We have been Committee that if we were to knock on a door in convinced of the merits. Rather like my right hon. Wiltshire today and ask the person who answered whether Friend the Member for West Dorset, I am not known they would have preferred the library to remain open, for my radical tendencies. I am not a great thrower-up or to have 300 councillors all drawing their stipend, of all the balls into the air to see how they will come most—unless, possibly,they were one of the councillors— down. would say they preferred the library. Why? Because the This has been a forensic exercise and the case has library is a good thing. It is a community asset. It been made to the vast majority of us who have the great encourages children to read. It is a social and community privilege of representing communities in Dorset. However, hub. That is why the protection of those things is my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch is absolutely important. right that local identity matters, so whether it is a mace Certainly, Baroness Scott, the leader of Wiltshire or gown, a tricorn or bicorn hat, or a town’s ancient Council, has been a trailblazer in ensuring—particularly ritual—I see the mace bearer in Blandford and the in a rural area—that such issues are taken into account clerk, who wears her black gown and her legal wig, on to preserve, conserve and promote local identity. I am civicoccasions—theseareimportantthingsforcommunities. perfectly prepared to give way to my hon. Friend the They are what defines us as English—I think I can just Member for Christchurch if I have got my local government about say that, as a Welshman—and British. history wrong, but I think Christchurch became a borough council only in 1974. Prior to that, it was a town council Richard Drax: My hon. Friend is making a wonderful in Hampshire. I shall work on the assumption that that speech, as have other colleagues. To pick up on an might be correct. earlier point, I entirely concur with what my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley said: I have the highest Sir Christopher Chope: No, it is incorrect. Christchurch respect for our hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, has been an independent borough since 1215. and yes, he has stood up for his constituents. He has done all he possibly could, and any other MP in that seat would have done the same. I pay tribute to him; we Simon Hoare: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but let all do. But when we have all voted, when this has been us look at the word “independent”, because he has used forensically looked at and when the evidence is there, it on a number of occasions in the House. I think, bearing in mind all the facts that we have to take into actually, he has deployed the phrase “sovereign and account, surely there comes a point when a decision has independent”, which suggests something like the Grand to be made for the benefit of us all, and at that point I Duchy of Luxembourg, or Liechtenstein. He was, of think an MP has to stand down. course, a councillor in Wandsworth—effectively a unitary, but Members present who have had experience in a two-tier council will know that the room for manoeuvre, Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend—who is, dare I say it, whether in a borough or a district council, is tiny. the epitome of Englishness—is absolutely right. We need to convince our friends and colleagues who reside Housing numbers are effectively shaped and dictated in the Christchurch constituency or within the boundaries by central Government, and freedom to raise council of the Christchurch borough that this is the right thing tax is curtailed by a capping regime. According to the to do. It is the right thing to do for public service, the estimates I have heard about services delivered in a right thing for good, sensible, conservative, prudent two-tier authority, between 80% and 90% of the services financial management and the right thing to guarantee delivered to Christchurch, Stourbridge, Sturminster the future of local government in our county. Newton, Sturminster Marshall, Blandford Forum, Gillingham and Shaftesbury, which is in my constituency, would be provided by Dorset County Council. By definition, Michelle Donelan (Chippenham) (Con): Will my hon. the larger voting number would not come from one Friend give way? specific geography, so I perceive real opportunities from the new council. Simon Hoare: Of course, although I am tempted to That is an important point. The change is not a say that, with the exception of the Minister, my hon. merger—hostile or friendly—and it is not a takeover; it Friend is the first member of the Committee to intervene. is the creation of two new councils. Certainly in Dorset rural—the existing county minus the borough of Michelle Donelan: I thank my hon. Friend. On that Christchurch—we are reviewing our boundaries. We note, does he think it would be wise to look to the are not calling them divisions; we are going to call them neighbouring authority of Wiltshire, where we have not wards, because it feels more granular. If you talk to lost our identity by amalgamating, but have gained most people, they refer to their ward councillor, not economies of scale? Our unitary council has not closed their divisional member. That boundary review will one library. allow new wards to be created straddling existing north-west or south and mid-Dorset boundaries. Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend strikes to the heart of the matter. It is not about constructs: it is about delivery Sir Christopher Chope: My hon. Friend is talking of service. It is not as if Dorset is treading a virgin path. about lines on maps. We are talking in Christchurch Bedfordshire, Shropshire and Cornwall have done the about a community with a long history and a great, same thing, and, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, strong local identity. Although he was not in the Wiltshire has done it too. Christchurchconstituency,heintervenedintheChristchurch 37 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 38 referendum to try to persuade people to vote in favour The direction of travel is clear. What we are trying to of Christchurch restructuring. Can he explain why he do in Dorset is not eccentric or perverse; it is not in any thinks he so manifestly failed to persuade the people of way weird. It is a democratic response, underpinned Christchurch that he was right and I was wrong? by intellectual and academic argument to deliver on that principal propulsion of public service. That is what this is about. We can see the situation evolving in Simon Hoare: I am not entirely sure that four tweets Northamptonshire, in Oxfordshire—[Interruption.] from a Back-Bench Conservative Member of Parliament Look—people are fighting to come in. The bouncers could be described as an intervention. This is hardly a are asking for ID. People are being asked to turn up Russian-sponsored cyber-attack of some form. I do not with their grandparents and sometimes great-grandparents have that many followers. My hon. Friend gilds me with in order to get a seat in this marvellous Delegated powers that I would not even presume to aggrandise Legislation Committee. As I was saying, it is happening with myself. in Northamptonshire. I understand that neighbours in My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the fact Somerset are looking at it, and that Buckinghamshire that 17,000 people took part in the parish poll. It was a and Oxfordshire have proposals that are either with the postal poll, so people did not actually have to turn up to Secretary of State or shortly to come before him. polling stations. I think people could bring in their form Two-tier local government will be a bizarre construct to the borough council headquarters if they wished. As to the Opposition spokesman, having come from the a percentage of those who are eligible to vote within the metropolitan borough of Oldham, but he will know of parliamentary constituency, 17,000 is a number, but it is the speedy and more efficient decisions that can be no more than that. That point strikes at the heart of this taken by single-tier government. argument. Nobody can doubt the passion that has been deployed on either side. The split between Dorchester Jim McMahon: It is important to say that a lot of and Sherborne—that historical divide of the civil war—is government is in constant evolution and change. Although a vicar’s tea party in comparison with some of the local government appears to be a single unit, we have blood pressure increases that we have seen as the process parish councils in some areas, town councils in others, has gone forward. and the emergence and growth of the combined authority. I take the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West made. Irrespective of where the Simon Hoare: That just goes to show how right it is public were on this issue two years ago or a year ago, or that the proposal has not been in response to an impost, even where they are now, they should have no doubt—I a diktat, or a Secretary of State’s fiat: “This is what is would hope that they had some considerable pride—that going to happen.”One size does not fit all. [Interruption.] we have all engaged passionately in this debate not out Well done, sir—you have been able to get a ticket to of narrow party interest or narrow self-interest, but come into this great event. You might have fought to because of what we believe, in our hearts and our souls, come in, but you will be fighting to get out in a moment. to be good for those who send us here. I have always thought that we in Dorset have been The key point is that unanimity is not required in the phenomenally lucky that we have been so readily and legislation, because it would make a nonsense of the easily cleaved into two parts. I have always used the law, but it is desirable. Let us be frank: if not, we would titles—working titles, I admit—“Dorset rural”and “Dorset not have taken up so much of your time, Sir Henry, or urban”for new councils, able to respond to new initiatives, that of those colleagues who have had the enormous new endeavours and new demands reflecting specific good fortune to be drawn in the Whips’ Office raffle to local concerns and requirements. That is why, unlike sit on this Delegated Legislation Committee. some of my colleagues, I was never persuaded of the merits of having one unitary council covering the whole of the county of Dorset. My anxiety, as a rural Member, Michael Tomlinson: My hon. Friend mentions that was that rural concerns and imperatives—the need to unanimity is not required. He is absolutely right. Can scope, sculpt and deliver services in a bespoke way in a he think of any other examples? I can think of Cornwall, rural community—may well have been trumped by the where there was not unanimity, and yet it was still louder siren voices of Christchurch, Bournemouth and reorganised. Poole.

Conor Burns: Will my hon. Friend give way on that Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I point? think that unanimity would be deeply worrying. It would almost suggest a “couldn’t care less” attitude, where something is done down the line of least resistance. Simon Hoare: The siren voice of Bournemouth rises. As my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham knows, not all constituent parts of Wiltshire wanted the change Conor Burns: I am delighted to intervene on my hon. to happen. The intervention of my hon. Friend the Friend with my not-too siren voice. Does he understand Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole inexorably that exactly the opposite fears were felt at the urban end provides me with the key test. The logical step is to go of the county—that our service sector and tech economy and ask anyone, “Would you want to go back to having would not be understood by a rurally led county council two-tier local government in Wiltshire? Would you want covering the whole county from Dorchester? to go back to having two-tier local government in Shropshire? Would you want to go back to having Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend is right. It depends two-tier local government in Cornwall?” I think the from which end of the telescope one looks at this, which answer uniformly, and probably definitely, would be no. just goes to show the compelling validity and veracity of 39 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 40

[Simon Hoare] Michael Tomlinson: My hon. Friend is making a powerful argument. Will he please comment on my the proposal that colleagues in local government across brief intervention, in which I mentioned our joint campaign the county submitted for ministerial decision. They on infrastructure on north-south routes? Does he believe looked at a number of options with officials in London, that this order will help bids to be put in to secure more officers in their relevant jurisdictions, and their councillors. infrastructure investment in Dorset? Clearly, the proposal addresses the conundrum that I posed from the rural end of the telescope, and which my hon. Friend has posed from the urban end. One could Simon Hoare: Without a shadow of a doubt, my hon. describe it as a win-win situation. Friend is right. He and I have sat with the former Minister, our hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate If hon. Members will allow me to purloin a phrase, it and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), and the Under- will allow councillors within the conurbation, and Secretary of State for Transport, our hon. Friend the councillors in the rural area, to take back control. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse [Interruption.] The Labour Whip very kindly chortles Norman), and of course we will be sitting down and at my observation—chortles, perhaps, to the point of discussing these issues with the Exchequer Secretary to expiration. This is an important point, because it will the Treasury. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid allow people with the most granular knowledge of their Dorset and North Poole is absolutely right that a unified geographies to deliver in a way that their constituents voice from one local authority will be able to make a and voters want. After the savings have been made, the case for that strategic investment. We have seen it happen. money will allow them to provide the services that our My hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham is more local residents most need. than welcome to chip in—if you will forgive the pun, As public servants, we often talk about hard-to-reach Sir Henry—at this point. Certainly, there has been a far communities. Very often, the people who are the most greater level of investment in the A350 corridor since dependent upon our public sector services are the least Wiltshire became unitary than when there was a county likely to engage in this progress. Why? Because, frankly, council and districts. The proof of the pudding is very they are just too damn busy getting on with the daily often in the eating, and that trail of investment—that grind of life and trying to make ends meet, trying to opportunity to make a cohesive and cogent submission keep a roof over their head or trying to get the council to Whitehall—is far more likely to be efficacious under to sort something out—the free school meals, the bus a unitary approach than in the “let’s play one off pass, the school place, whatever it happens to be. That is against the other” two-tier system. a really important point. In this process, we will ensure I think my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset that rural services are delivered in rural areas, and and North Poole would concur with this statement: conurbation services are delivered in conurbations. that when the proposition—the tantalising prize—of reorganisation within the county has been put before Richard Drax: While I have the Minister’s attention, I other decision makers, interest that has existed has want to say that we hope the rural unitary will be as become more alert and acute when they have realised important as the urban unitary and will receive equal that there is likely to be a slimming-down in the relationship investment. of dialogue that is needed to take decisions.

Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend strikes a very telling Michael Tomlinson: Perhaps my hon. Friend could point, which he, I and my right hon. Friend the Member throw one last thing into this matrix as well. When for West Dorset have made to organisations such as the Members of Parliament across the country also speak Dorset Chamber of Commerce and Industry and the with one voice—as he and I do on this project, as well as Dorset local enterprise partnership. Dorset’s economy our hon. Friend the Member for Poole; the A350 starts does not end halfway up Wimborne high street. It is in near the port of Poole—that also lends greater weight. our former milking parlours, our little industrial units, our small starter units in Sturminster Newton or Blandford Simon Hoare: Absolutely right, and the work that Forum, in our hubs and hives of enterprise, job creation our hon. Friend the Member for Poole does on behalf and innovation, wherever they happen to be. of his constituents should not be neglected in these Just last Friday, I visited a business in Blandford that matters. operates over a two-storey floor space that I would I will go back briefly to one issue, because I am suggest is no larger than this room, but has just signed a conscious that I did not deal with it with the weight and £10.5 million export deal with Nigeria to provide LED attention that I believe my hon. Friend the Member for lighting. That strong contract was cited by the Minister Bournemouth West as an individual both requires and for Trade Policy in departmental press releases during deserves. The local identity is hugely important. No the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. Conservative likes the big and the monolithic. We quite Little Blandford Forum—such a hub of innovation! like the quirky, the different and the local—it is what The complexity—the confusing mosaic; the fit-inducing makes up, I think, part of our Conservative DNA. I kaleidoscope—of the geography of local government have always gone into this process with the firm and that we have at the moment has allowed larger bodies to clear caveat that local Mayors—whether it is the Mayor concentrate their attention unduly on the conurbation, of Shaftesbury, the Mayor of Blandford Forum or the almost allowing one side to be played off against the Mayor of Verwood Town Council—can continue in other. In this new regime, that cannot be the case. In my office and have a role. I actually think that role would be assessment, the economies of the whole of the county augmented and enhanced when they are no longer the will benefit. junior tier of local government, with the district or the 41 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 42 borough sandwiched somewhere in between, but instead Richard Drax: I agree entirely that there is going to be have a more direct link up to the unitary council and greater scope for town councils. When the Minister down. sums up, he might just allude to that and reassure us There is also Weymouth to consider. I believe that my that town and parish councils will indeed have a role in hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset shares my the future. view and I am sure that he, like I, welcomed this change; it falls within his bailiwick. My support for it, and indeed anything else, is absolutely ancillary to the case Simon Hoare: I concur with my hon. Friend. If my that Weymouth makes, but what a marvellous initiative hon. Friend the Minister cannot do that, I will be of Weymouth to work towards the creation of a town performing the greatest volte-face in Dorset’s political council, because that will ensure that granular,democratic history and joining my hon. Friend the Member for accountability. Christchurch. I take entirely the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch made, because—frankly— Michael Tomlinson: Thank goodness you don’t have a anybody who has listened to him for more than two vote. minutes could not fail to have noticed the most enormous pride that residents and public servants of Christchurch have—rightly—in the history of their part of the county, Simon Hoare: So says my hon. Friend. If I may pinch which was once in Hampshire and is now in Dorset. But a phrase from more auspicious colleagues, one of my that is the point, I say to the Minister: it makes no red lines has been the role of the town and parish difference where they are; it is what they are that is councils—making sure that there are local voices and important. It is how they feel that motivates them and that that relationship is forged with ward members. makes them tick. Gillingham will end up with three councillors, and Blandford Forum would be Blandford Forum if it Blandford will end up with two; part of the skill set that were in North or West Yorkshire, or in Wiltshire, because we will be looking for, certainly in our candidate, is a it would still be Blandford Forum. And Christchurch very firm commitment to close liaison with those town has been Christchurch whether it has resided within the and parish councils. county boundary of Hampshire or the county boundary of Dorset. Why? Because it is Christchurch. And should the good burghers of that borough seek the creation of Michelle Donelan: In Wiltshire, the town councils a town council, I think it would be the most phenomenal are extremely important, and we have a process of success. devolution—devolving powers down to those town councils. However, it is important to remember that this is not Michael Tomlinson: My hon. Friend talks about something that is going to be forced on people; it is the Christchurch, but before he did so he mentioned Weymouth unitary councils’ responsibility to shape this with the and its town council. Perhaps he could say something will of local people. It is a process that is happening more about the opportunities for town and parish councils bottom up. to have a beefed-up role if this particular order is passed, and about where he sees the opportunities for our parish and town councils as well. Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend is right. I suggest—this may put the fear of God into her—that we may be Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend is right to point to that beating a path to her door and to that of her senior opportunity. council leadership, because we do not want to reinvent I pay tribute at this point to Councillor Simon Tong, the wheel. We want to find out where some of the a former headteacher who will certainly be known to pitfalls have been and what the success stories have my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North been. We want to emulate and gild the success and not Poole. At the first opportunity that Councillor Tong to repeat any errors that Wiltshire, Cornwall, Shropshire had to vote on this proposal as a member of East and so on have made. That is the clear path to making Dorset District Council, he voted against it. One of his this a success. reasons—in fact, his principal reason—for voting against Likewise—my hon. Friend alluded to this incredibly it was the very germane and specific concern that my important point in her intervention—it will be crucial hon. Friend raised: the potential for a disconnect and for our two new councils to be member-led. When we for a subversion of town and parish councils. have member-led authorities that are responsive to and It was one of those odd situations where one would reflective of the concerns, fears and aspirations of the be damned if one did and damned if one did not. If one electorate, as expressed on the doorstep, at surgeries had gone into all the minutiae of precisely who would and through the ballot box, we are more likely to have a be procuring the pencils, the highlighters, the ring binders, specific, bespoke level of services authored from the the desks, the table lamps or any other office stationery, membership up. or who was going to commission the painter of the This is going to require strong political elbows in a livery on the side of the van, one might quite legitimately joint endeavour. I draw huge comfort from the fact that, have been said to be putting the cart before the horse. in terms of the main parties of the county—when I say However, it was then realised pretty quickly—I believe the main parties, I mean the Labour party and the this was one of the concerns expressed by Purbeck and Conservative party, because they are the two main by Weymouth and Portland—that there was a question parties as far as the last general election is concerned—we about the role, scope and vision for town and parish have the support of the Dorset Labour party in this councils. I think that is now starting to emerge. This initiative, because it, too, is committed to this level of cannot be done top-down; it has to be done in collaboration. public service. 43 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 44

Conor Burns: It is encouraging that the debate is now The Chair: I call Sir Christopher Chope. I remind the moving on beyond the process to what we hope to hon. Gentleman that I am very keen to give the Minister achieve by having gone through the process. I am also five minutes at the end, which gives him just under encouraged by the degree to which there is now a 10 minutes. conversation about how we bring people back together and put new structures in place that are right for the local communities within the new larger authorities. I 5.13 pm would point out there is of course only 20 mins to go. Sir Christopher Chope: Thank you, Sir Henry. We are not at the end, and the reason is that there is a legal Hon. Members: Shame! challenge to all this. We have had the letter before action and I understand that another letter before action has been issued by a resident in my constituency against the Conor Burns: I am sure it would be very useful for us Government. It is interesting that, with the full knowledge to hear again from my hon. Friend the Member for of the legal opinions that have been floating around and Christchurch about how he envisages playing a part in the correspondence between the council in Christchurch moving Christchurch on if, as seems to be the will of the and the Government, very little attention has been paid Committee, the motion is passed. to that this afternoon. We are talking about a constructive solution. I hope Simon Hoare: That was a typically elegant invitation that my hon. Friends will ensure that nothing is done from my hon. Friend, urging me, in his polite and dulcet that will make for a complete shambles if and when the tones, to draw what I would have characterised as my courts decide that these orders are ultra vires and are opening remarks to a peroration. quashed, if they are indeed passed by both Houses before then. I would like the Minister to comment on the practicalities of all that, and on how easy it will be Michael Tomlinson: Shut up and sit down! for those decisions to be rowed back on, if that is the will of the courts. Simon Hoare: My hon. Friend the Member for Mid I have looked at the Government’s response to the Dorset and North Poole, in some uncharacteristically letter before action from Christchurch Borough Council, cheap sedentary chunter, says, “Shut up and sit down!” which is centred around the use of retrospective legislation, I note the ironic “Hear, hears!” from members of the and the main arguments put forward seem to be that Committee. I view that as an invitation to move on to Christchurch is a bit late in the day in raising that point, volume 3, but I shall not. Let me draw my remarks to a despite the regulations being laid only on 29 March. close— The first two or three pages of the response centre around that point—“You missed your chance and it’s all too late.” Chris Elmore: Shame! The second part says that the presumption against retrospectivity is not engaged. The argument is not that retrospectivity is not engaged—of course, Christchurch Simon Hoare: Tantalising though the hon. Gentleman’s Borough Council believes it is—but that the presumption invitation is, I hope he will not hold it against me if I do against it is not engaged. There seems to be a recognition not avail myself of his invitation at the current time, but that retrospectivity is engaged. In the light of that, and I reserve the right to return to it at a later stage. of quite a lot of the decided cases, it seems that there is Let me close as I opened. I want—and I hope that all every prospect that, far from this being resolved this of us, as practitioners of party politics, will want—all afternoon, as some of my right hon. and hon. Friends our constituents, whether they voted for us or not, think it will, this will continue—and quite right too. We whether they think we are the best thing since sliced are a rules-based democracy and at the heart of all this bread or the worst thing since the bubonic plague, to is local democracy and localism. have confidence in this one unassailable truth: that we have locked horns and engaged in strong, heartfelt, What is the point of introducing proposals to abolish passionate debate. That debate is now drawing to a Christchurch Borough Council and replicate it with a close. Something tells me that there is very little this new parish council that will effectively be a new bureaucracy afternoon that will reconcile the viewpoint of my hon. with fewer powers? In other parts of Dorset, there are Friend the Member for Christchurch, my hon. Friend already parish and town councils, but not in Christchurch. the Member for Bournemouth West and myself on this I was encouraged by some of the comments made by issue. my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West, The one thing that will ally us all is a strong affection who seems to speak in a rather different way from the and admiration for our former Prime Minister, Baroness leader of his council. The leader of his council is on Thatcher.Weall remember that scene—often now parodied record as saying that he is against the creation of any as a pastiche, but heartfelt at the time—when the new town or parish councils within the new urban authority. Prime Minister on the steps of Downing Street prayed This afternoon, the leader of Christchurch Borough in aid the words of St Francis of Assisi. It was a very Council, the immediate past mayor of Christchurch heartfelt, moving, spiritual prayer. Let me close with Borough Council, the president of the Christchurch the words of St Paul: we have fought the fight to the and East Dorset Conservative association, another Dorset finish; we have the run the race to the end. We have now county councillor and a prominent younger Conservative got to the end. Let us now roll up our sleeves and make from Christchurch have sat and listened to this long this damn thing work. debate. I do not think that they will have been impressed 45 Third Delegated 16 MAY 2018 Legislation Committee 46 by the talk of wanting all this to have been sorted out, rather than immediately. I share the hon. Gentleman’s of local democracy being overridden, or of bottom-up vision that if there is to be a new unitary authority, processes. everybody should pay the same. Paragraph 8.7 of the Government’s explanatory memorandum says: Conor Burns: Will my hon. Friend give way? “During the period of representation”— following the then Secretary of State’s “minded to” Sir Christopher Chope: I will not because I only have announcement in November— two more minutes. My hon. Friend made a number of “210 representations were received from members of the public, good points and I want to respond to another of them. local councillors, businesses and community organisations. On severance payments, there is a lot of resentment Submissions from members of the public”— that this exercise will result in council officers across in other words, the real bottom-up submissions— Dorset receiving substantial payoffs and handouts. The “were more likely to be opposed to the proposal”. Government have pleaded with the officers of the district councils, the county council and the urban unitaries That is right across the whole of Dorset—we are not that no exit payments should exceed £95,000. Exit payments just talking about within Christchurch. Right across include not just severance, but contributions to pensions. Dorset, more people were opposed to what the Government They have not had that guarantee and, up until now, announced in November than were in support of it, yet there has not been support from councillors for such a some of my hon. Friends have the gall to suggest that policy,but it certainly strikes a strong chord with members that is not correct and that there is general support for of the public. all this. How does the Minister think the shadow authority I hope the Minister will tell us in his response how will be able to take over within 14 days of the coming people in Christchurch, for example, can be protected into force of the order? The order will come into force against new borrowing being taken out by Bournemouth on the day that it is passed. When does he expect that to and Poole.I referred earlier to the £70 million of borrowing. be, and how will the 14 days fit in with the forthcoming Why should the people of Christchurch want to go holiday period? along with that, when they have been prudent and run a debt-free council? Will the Minister comment further on what the Government’s attitude will be if indeed the judicial I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Member review proceeds, as most people expect it to, to a successful for North Dorset accepts the decision of the joint conclusion? What then for good local government in committee that there should be an immediate move, on and around Dorset? In that event, Christchurch will the creation of the new rural unitary, to equalisation hopefully continue to thrive as an independent sovereign and harmonisation. Why should there not be a similar borough, in tune with the wishes and the will of its local move within the urban area? Surely actions speak louder people, having, alone among all the councils in Dorset, than words. What action could be stronger than for invited the local people to express their views in a local everybody to accept that from day one they should all poll—something that all the other councils ran away pay the same council tax, rather than people in the most from doing. rundown part of Christchurch having to subsidise the people in Sandbanks? 5.25 pm Rishi Sunak: It is a pleasure to wind up this spirited Jim McMahon: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s and thoughtful debate. I echo my hon. Friends in thanking passion and to the way he is representing the views of the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton for the his constituency. I agree with him on the majority of the typically constructive attitude he has brought to our points he has raised, but there are elements I disagree proceedings. I look forward to many more discussions with. His point about equalisation is very important. with him in the months to come. I join my hon. Friends The statutory instrument says not that the councils will in paying tribute to Mr Rowsell, who we have heard a merge, but that the existing councils will be abolished bit about. He and his team have worked tirelessly over and new councils will be created. At the point when new the past few years to ensure that we arrive in this debate councils are created, surely it makes sense that all households having gone through thorough diligence and due process. in the new area are treated equally. He is a sidesman of the 11th century priory in Christchurch, which I believe has one of the longest naves in England.

Sir Christopher Chope: Absolutely. I hope that the Sir Christopher Chope: The longest. Minister will agree with the hon. Gentleman. What better way of setting up a new council, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West was saying, Rishi Sunak: I am corrected by my hon. Friend; it is than by having a new culture, a new agenda, new vision the longest. Mr Rowsell follows his father in that role, and all the rest of it? It is very difficult to achieve that if and I thank him and his team for all the work they have we do not start off with everybody paying the same done on this project. council tax at band D. I hope the Government will I will briefly touch on some of the substantive issues come off the fence and declare their hand, because I raised. All the contributions from Members of Parliament think behind their hand is hidden a proposal to introduce from Dorset have been thoughtful and passionate, and a notional council tax system, which would presume they have demonstrated clearly that they take seriously that the council tax in Poole, for example, had been their duty to represent their constituents, to disagree raised by more than the threshold that triggers a referendum. respectfully and to ensure that all voices are heard. I I think that that will happen over a period of time, thank them for the way they have approached proceedings. 47 Third Delegated HOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 48

[Rishi Sunak] There is a joint committee in place at the moment involving the councils in both proposed unitaries. It will Wehave heard a lot about the parish poll in Christchurch produce proposals for the Government setting out its and what it meant or did not mean. Not only did the plans for council tax harmonisation. The Government’s Secretary of State consider that poll in the round with job is to bring legislation to the House—which we will all the other representations, but he also received before the summer—that sets in place the maximum representations that were highly critical of the conduct number of years over which equalisation can take place. of that poll, with many suggesting that it should have It is then for the local authorities to decide on the exact little validity at all. It is worth bearing in mind that the path. It is worth bearing in mind that in the previous properly representative sample survey that was done as round of unitarisations in 2009, the period envisaged in part of the formal consultation shows that 63% of the legislation was five years. That is something that residents in Christchurch supported the principle of hon. Members can work with, and soon enough we will two unitaries and 64% supported the specific proposal come to a view. In the meantime, we are happy to take that we are considering. representations from colleagues and anyone else on that It is the Government’s view that there is nothing important matter. As my hon. Friend the Member for retrospective about what we are doing here. That is Christchurch pointed out, there are specific criteria similarly the view of the Joint Committee on Statutory with which those will be judged. Instruments, which has not commented particularly on I will conclude by paying tribute— this matter. These statutory instruments modify existing legislation, so that in the future certain acts can take The Chair: Order. Minister, I am afraid we have to place. According to most people’scommon understanding, put the question now. retrospectivity means changing the legality of an act Question put, That the Committee has considered the that has already happened. In this case no act has draft Bournemouth, Dorset and Poole (Structural Changes) happened. We are talking about things that are to Order 2018. happen. Sir Christopher Chope: No. Sir Christopher Chope: Will my hon. Friend give way? The Chair: That is invalid. Rishi Sunak: I will not, because there is lots to cover, Question agreed to. and my hon. Friend and I have discussed this topic a Resolved, great deal. That the Committee has considered the draft Bournemouth, Let me turn to the questions raised about council tax Dorset and Poole (Structural Changes) Order 2018. and savings. On council tax, it is right that people are expecting a view, and I can set out for the Committee 5.29 pm the position, not just in this case but in previous cases. Committee rose.