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Money Trust Investigations. 1912-1913

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Money Trust Investigations. 1912-1913 MONEY TRUST INVESTIGATION INVESTIGATION OF FINANCIAL AND MONETARY CONDITIONS IN THE UNITED STATES UNDER HOUSE RESOLUTIONS NOS. 429 AND 504 BEFORE A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON BANKING AND CURRENCY PART 25 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE Digitized for FRASER 1813 http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/ Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON BANKING AND CURRENCY. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. ARSENF. P. PUJO, Louisiana, Chairman. WILLIAM Q. BROWN, West Virginia. GEORGE A. NEELEY, Kansas. ROBERT h. DOUOHTON, North Carolina. HENRY McMORRAN, Michigan. HUBERT D. STEPHENS, Mississippi. EVERIS A. HAYES, California. JAMES A. DAUQHER.TY, Missouri. FRANK E. GUERNSEY, Maine. JAMES F. BYRNES, South Carolina. WILLIAM H. HEALD, Delaware. R. W, FONTENOT, Clerk. A. M. MCDEEMOTT, Assistant Clerk. n Digitized for FRASER http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/ Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis MONEY TRUST INVESTIGATION. SUBCOMMITTB OF THE COMMITTEE ON BANKING AND CURRENCY, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Washington, D. C, Thursday, January 23,1913. The subcommittee met at 11.15 o'clock a. m. Present: Messrs. Pujo (chairman), Stephens, Daugherty, Neeley, Byrnes, and Doughton. Present also: Samuel Untermyer, Esq., of New York City, counsel for the committee. TESTIMONY OF THOMAS W. JOYCE. The witness was sworn by the chairman. Mr. UNTEMYER. "Will you be good enough to state your residence and occupation? Mr. JOYCE. 663 Willoiighby Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y. I occupy a position with J. P. Morgan & Co. known as that of security clerk. Mr. UNTERMYER. HOW long have you been connected with J. P. Morgan & Co.? Mr. JOYCE. Twenty-eight years. Mr. UNTERMYER. Will you be good enough to describe the business of the department over which you preside, in which your position is known as that of security clerk ? Mr. JOYCE. My principal business is to receive and deliver se- curities and record the particulars of same for the uses of the firm, Mr. UNTERMYER. DO you keep the books in your department or are they kept under your direction? Mr. JOYCE. They are kept under my direction. Mr. UNTERMYE... Have you brought with you a statement of the amount on deposit by J. P. Morgan & Co. with each of the different banks, as of January 2, 1912, and November 1, 1912? Mr. JOYCE. I believe such a list has been furnished. I have not got it in my possession. Mr. UNTERMYER. I would like to have Mr. Joyce produce that list, Mr. Lindabury. Mr. Lindabury produced certain papers. Mr. UNDERMYER. In answer to the request, the firm of J. P. Morgan & Co. produces two statements, from which we ask that there be marked in evidence the names of the banks with the deposit in each of J. P. Morgan & Co., which is the information for which I asked. The other two columns are not to be part of the record. The papers referred to were marked, " Exhibits Nos. 219 and 220, January 23, 1913." and will be found printed in the record follow- ing volume 25. Digitized for FRASER6 1803 http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/ Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis 1804 MONEY TRUST. Mr. UNTERMYER. Have you anything to do with the bank accounts of J. P. Morgan & Co. ? * Mr. JOYCE. NO, sir. Mr. UNTERMYER. DO you know in what way the deposits of money with the firm are disposed of, and how they are invested ? Mr. JOYCE. I do not. Mr. UNTEHMYER. YOU have charge of the investments, have you not? Mr. JOYCE. NO, sir; only as custodian. Mr. UNTERMYER. But as custodian you have charge of the se- curities held by the firm of J. P. Morgan & Co. for its own account ? Mr. JOYCE. And its clients. Mr. UNTERMYER. And for the account of its clients? Mr. JOYCE. Yes. Mr. UNTERMYER. In what way are the securities held for the de- positors of J. P. Morgan & Co.? Are there any separate accounts showing the allotment, to those that deposit with J. P. Morgan & Co., on any given securities? Mr. JOYCE. DO you mean to say a separate record kept of them? Mr. UNTERMYER. NO; but is there any way of identifying them? For instance, if the International Harvester Co. is a depositor with J. P. Morgan & Co., are there any securities kept apart as against that deposit? Mr. JOYCE. Against the cash deposit, do you refer to? Mr. UNTERMYEK. Yes; against cash deposits; against checks? Mr. JOYCE. The records kept by me would only show what securi- ties were in the possession of J. P. Morgan & Co. I would have no control over how it was applied. Mr. UNTERMYER. NO; but would you have any record that would enable the committee to ascertain whether any securities whatever are appropriated to or set apart for the moneys that J. P. Morgan & Co. hold as depository? Mr. JOYCE. My records would not show any transaction of that kind. Mr. UNTERMYER. SO far as you know, are any securities of any kind held, or is there any security whatever other than the responsi- bility of the firm, as against these deposit accounts—these deposit liabilities of the firm? Mr. JOYCE. I do not grasp the meaning of your question. Mr. UNTERMYER. Let me see if I can make it perfectly plain. It appears that on January 1, 1912, Messrs. Morgan had on deposit, belonging to certain corporations, upward of $100,000,000, I forget the exact amount. Now. what I want to know is whether or not there is any security against those deposits other than the responsibility of the firm and its obligations? Mr. JOYCE. YOU mean securities held for our clients? Mr. UNTERMYER. NO; securities held as against those deposits or appropriated as against them. Mr. JOYCE. I do not know of any. Mr. UNTERMYER. YOU do not know of any? Mr. JOYCE. NO, sir. Mr. UNTERMYER. SO far as you know, there is no such account, and there is no such method of dealing? Digitized for FRASER http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/ Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis MONEY TEUST. 1805 Mr. JOYCE. AS I understand your question. Mr. UNTERMYER. What becomes of these moneys that are deposited by interstate corporations with J. P. Morgan & Co., these cash de- posits ? Mr. JOYCE. I do not have am thing to do with that particular part of the business. Mr. UNTERMYER. Do you know whether they are invested? Mr. JOYCE. I do not know. Mr. UNTERMYER. Would not the books of your department con- tain any entries relating to that subject: would they not show against what these securities are held? Mr. JOYCE. The books of my department would show the receipt and delivery of securities for the clients of the firm, of the firm's own accounts. Mr. UNTERMYER. Your books would also show the ownership or holding of securities for account of firms? Mr. JOYCE. Yes, sir. Mr. UNTERMYER. And would they also show the obligations against which these securities are held? Mr. JOYCE. NO, sir. Mr. UNTERMYER. They would not show the debt? Mr. JOYCE. Not unless they were held as collateral to a loan. Mr. UNTEBMYER. But apart from that, if they were all out of de- posits by customers, the amount of deposits representing the debt would not show in your books or in your department, would it? Mr. JOYCE. NO, sir. Mr. UNTERMYER. Have you anything to do with the underwriting ? Mr. JOYCE. NO, sir. Mr. UNTERMYER. NO relation to it at all? Mr. JOYCE. NO, sir. Mr. UNTERMYEE. DO VOU know the business, or that branch of it, at all? Mr. JOYCE. Only through my ordinary familiarity. Mr. UNTERMYER. Have you anything to do with the allotment of securities ? Mr. JOYCE. NO, sir. Mr. UNTERMYER. That is in another department, is it? Mr. JOYCE. It is done by the firm. Mr. UNTERMYER. DO you know whether there are lists kept by the firm, of corporations and individuals and firms, from which those to whom these allotments are made are selected? Mr. JOYCE. I do not. Mr. UNTERMYER. YOU know nothing about that? Mr. JOYCE. NO. Mr. UNTERMYER. And you do not know anything about who were the participants in this underwriting? Mr. JOTCE. No. Mr. UNTERMYER. YOU do not get any information on that subject in your department? Mr. JOYCE. Not until we have to deliver securities; that is all. I know to whom I deliver securities. Mr. UNTERMYER. In cases in which no delivery of securities is made to the underwriters, but securities are sold by the firm, then the transaction does not come to YOU? Digitized for FRASER http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/ Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis 1806 MONEY TBtTST. Mr. JOYCE. NO. Mr. UNTERMYER. Have you brought any books or papers with you ? Mr. JOYCE. I have not. Mr. UNTERMYER. Are you the custodian of the documents of the firm, such as agreements, voting trust agreements, and the like? Mr. JOYCE. NO, sir. Mr. UNTERMYER. That is in another department? Mr. JOYCE. That is kept by the firm. Mr. UNTERMYER. And not within your jurisdiction? Mr. JOYCE. NO, sir. Mr. UNTEBMYER. The records kept under your direction would ehow, however, would they not, the amount of securities in the va- rious constituent companies that were combined into the United States Steel Co., that were owned by the firm of J. P. Morgan & Co. at the time of the combination? Mr. JOYCE. The records would show the securities owned by those companies if they had on deposit with us any securities. Mr. UNTERMYER. I am not speaking of the securities owned by those companies, but I am speaking of securities owned by J. P. Mor- gan & Co. in those companies.
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