., . . ·, THE mlSH TIMES, FRIDAY, '.AUGUST 20, l971J JOHN HU1lfE .. INTERVIEWED BY HENRY KELLY IU i•~estininster lllnst realise the realities B.: of the situation,'' says Hullle THEE detention of several hundred for the call made by Opposi- participation in the administra­ Mr. Ivan Cooper, M.P., to the intervie1 THE PAST FORTNIGHT in was an Northern Ireland has been one political prisoners by the tion M.P.s at Stormont for civil tion of Northern Ireland. streets of Derry on Wednesday, during which they were B.B.C. of the most turbulent, bloody Unionist Government, political disobedience from the Catholic . In !he following interview, One" pn community. The situation is given m Belfast yesterday, Mr. arrested by British troops and carried a and· tragic in the entire 50-year developments unfolded quickly John Hume. abstentionist showered with water cannon Rev. Hu: history of the State. -As men. and at times confusingly. now one where every day s.D.L.P. M.P. for Foyle. talks and rubber bullets ·while offer­ The it women and children died on The single most significant brings another example of abou~ recent developments fol­ ing passive resistance to an interview who clair the streets of Belfast. Derry political development has been Catholics from all classes and lowing a dramatic return made Army incursion into the Bog­ the pries, and Strabane following the the rapid and dramatic support walks of life opting out of by himself and his colleague, side. when he that the back by The p MASSIVE CAMPAIGN OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE AND PASSIVE William "An eye fairly an !R.ESISTANCE FROM CATHOLIC COMMUNITY FORECAST Army," COM Followius: recent dcve/opmc11ts :in non-violence. because we dO no.t in this country~ as I've said so often, won no world support. l believe of the ultimate solution to this The , Derry. how AO vou see the imnze­ wish to sec real sectarian strife. So are a di-.i.sion between people and that our api,roach is the approach problem. sharply t, diate political situation? we arc in thal position, and we are between two groups of different that has woo respect and support What woul,t you like to see at King. Cc I see ii developinl?- along the lines not uctline much help from the outlooks, and therefore the prefer• and bas made people realise that rh,• presc111 mome111 ? Dorset. ,, of a massive campaii:n of civil dis• authci'rities in dealing with it as a.ble way to unite this country is the Northern Ireland problem is A removal of the 1920 Act as ton, Del obedience and passive resistance, the cven1s of this week clearly show, by agreement and consent. I believe not just the J.R.A. but is a serious the . basis of 2overnment here, and the B.B.C a lld it is mv hope that the ener::ies but it"s aeainst that background that there is nobody who would community and political problem. I thmk we would find a commission A B.B: and anger of the people about that we are making a determined reallv dispute this, and I would be· And havine: through"ut the last two running Northern lreland for a King's le the present situation will be chan· bid to channel all our energies into lieve that a maioritv of oeople in years acted with the utmost respon- lim_ited period, a desirable thing being et ncl!cd into passive resistance. passive resistance. I believe, in anv Northern Ireland consenting to a sibility and on manv times ur_ged wh1Je a permanent solution was at the A JJ'/rat arc your im111ediatc olans case, that in the present situation united Ireland would be, in fact, restraint and many ti111cs told worked out. There's a ooint I want in propa now? passive resistance is eXactly the tac­ the best way, Otherwise we might people, for example in Civil Rii:hts to make here about talks. People "These 1\lv immediate plan is to have " tic to use in confrontations with have the situation we have in Nor• groups, "We're opposed to vour keep talking about tripartite talks. woundin: ,·cry bil! rally in Derry on Saturdav the British Army or any other thern Ireland today In reverse with­ march," and made ourselves politi- We are completelv opposed to tri­ in the c afternoon, with a wide range of authority. in a united Ireland. At the oresent cally unpopular, I think that that oartite talks, and the people who the tcrr speakers at it, to promote an anti• What 111i11ht be called a tremen· time in the situation that is develop• strengthens us now at the 11oint make these suggestions are not even lreland." internment campaign a.pd to oro· dous /awnro/ler of opposition to ing, of course, the longer that West• where the British Government took thinking deeply a·bout the problem that we mote ch·il disobedience and oassive the cii·il authority has started here. minster waits to intervene and the the decision against us. Once they There should either he two nrou~ unwelco TI resistance, and to · really channel It ~tarted with tire decision of more suffering that. thev put people took the Brian Faulkner is not ~ sniping a prn pn/itica/1}' in Northern Ire/anti people do uot walll to be goveruetl tion which I think we're closinl? our Remembcri1111 the evocative and So\'ereign Prime Minister, and he We rejec 01 prcscm? by the present Stormont situarion, eyes to. emotional vhrnses of the first tlavs doesn't have a sovereign Govern­ Obviouslv l, would like to see all that they are one by one praduallv Do you see a11yo11e you can talk of rite CiVi: Ri,:hrs movemcnr, "011e ment. Technically and Conslitution­ LAP internee,; released immediatelv and droppilll! out of society almost. Do to 011 th,, Unionist side or in auth­ nran one vote, one man one house. allv. the Prime Minister of Nor­ -yo see the Catholic population ority ill Northern Ireland? Lord < the campaign of repression aban­ 11 one man one job". what would be them Ireland is Edward Heath. who King's le doned. and our attitude to the oroh• rcall}1 opting out? At the present time. we're not the phrases now for a refurbished is Prime ~ini!'-ter of the United That's exactly as I see it. Our talkinl? to anyone on the Unionist that thu !em accepted. which is that the road and revitalised Civil Ri11hts move- Kingdom. Mr. Faulkner is the head Nortbern to a solu~on is to deal with the decision to \\1thdraw was an act of side, because as far as we are con­ me/II? of a local administration in that political judgment. Many people at occasion r.olitical malaise of Northern cerned there is no government there. The obvious and immediate Jack Lynch is a soverei~n Prime of fairn I re land. The Northern Ireland prob• the time questioned the wisdom of There is a Unionist-led administra­ phrase is · "End internment an,1 op• Minister. lf Northern Treland is to that judgment. We took it on the tion there at the present till.J.e. We were enti lem is not the security problem. a.s pression." And that very demand be involved in discus,ions. then HI can rhe British Government and .Mr. basis of the fact that we realised believe that the onlv people we can itself, of course, means another both sides in Northern Ireland must that Westminster policv was drift• now talk to are the people who approach to the Northern problem. he involved. items or. Faulkner are trying to show at the you me1 minute, and I think the e,·ents ine towards, and that in fact a have the power to take decisions, and there is only one other ap- What do vou tM11k is s:oinii to decision on repre~ion as the course and when they caJI us to talk we noticed t since internment have shown that proach, and that is the suspension happen? not the , it's not a security problem, that of action had been taken, and will go to talk, provided, of course, of Stormont. • What I l\,.1pe is going to happen there's not just ·a small grouo of therefore there hl!d to come a point that they abandon their present Do you ad,·ocate the sumension ts that Westminster will quicklv °For i a!!itators in Northern Ireland. that when we simply stood up against policv of repression. of Stormont as opposed to the realise its mistakes, cut its losses. the "We there's a lar!!e section of people that. We had on many occasions What ahout the l,R.A.? lt has abolition of it? cut its repressive nolicv. suspend 10th car: dissatisfied wffh the ·svstcm. put forward our views to West­ been s11ggeste,1 that to reiiaill the We advocate the abolition of the l920 Act an,1 call for Constitu­ of a Catl pn/itical initiative yo,, a11d your day befo What do you think of the SIIR• minster. but clearly, of the two Stormont as it is at oresent con· tional discussions. s:estion that a wheel has come full roads open to them-repression or co/lca1111cs were forced to take a stituted, and there's absolutelv no What ab.0111 a Protestant back- of an ir circle a11d that. particularly i11 · cha nee of the svstem-thev had 1nore radical course of action than. Irishman you would have wished. Do vou douht about that. lash? n1an to , Dern·, A11s:11s1, 1971, is 11 at much chosen the road of repression. So _The threat of a Protestant Right- ,li/fe;,111 from October, 1968, or at that point we took a stand and thi11k yor, have caplllred the iuitia­ JVhe11 you look i11 broad terms wmg backlash has hum: over the Last August, ·1969'? we withdrew from the system, and til'e from the me11 of violence, a11d at the last two or three years, ,lo Ireland since 1912 - in · fact it and who I think that that's true in a very our judgment has now been con• if you think you have, can yor, you reol/y thi111r mzythinii has created this State. It's the threat that been she _!!ood sense in that 1 sensed in the firmed and proved accurate, be­ hold it? cha111ied? has held Northern Ireland in the soldier. Bo"side the spirit of 1968 returned cause it is now clear that there has This point about us bein.:? forced One verv definite thin~ has grip of injustice and ·opposed Civil uThis and reborn, and that is the spirit been a complete withdrawal of con­ is one that I have.heard made, but changed, and that is that T don't Righls and created the provisional accepted that we are at present trying to de• sent to the system of government. when we are in positions of politi· think there is any,body anvwhere LR.A. as a reaction to it. It has chairma1 velop, because we think we need That being so, that system of gov· cal leadership we've ,11.ot to make in the world now who doesn't be- opposed every single reform with William an end to the violence. We are in ernment cannot continue. That is political judgments in keeping with Jieve that there is a serious oroblem the same threats. It ·has opposed up with the really terrible situation as Oppo­ the realitv. We want peace in Nor• the political situation as we find it. in Northern Ireland to be faced . two Prime Ministers and brought putting sition 1eaders that our views on thern Ireland, we want justice, we Now l would make absolutely no Two years ago, that was not so. them down. It is opposing a third squarely ending trouble in Northern Irel~nd want stability. That can only come apology to anyone for the policies It's so today, and T think that the now, and it is opposing the British are not being accepted. We thmk about now bv Westminster realisin!! that we have pursued during the problem has to be solved this time.. Government. And it is a threat that J that it's political solutions that are the realities of the situation. Tf last two years. In fact, without us How do ,,ou look at Mr. Brian moderate Unionists use themselves and without our policies, it's my Faulkner as Prime M inister? when talkin., to the British Govern- Of L( required. The Government at West­ thev continue to try and bury B.B.C. : minster and the Unionists in Nor• people into the ground thev simply ,·iew that there would have been I don't look on him as Prime ment. The;, say: "Unless vou pre· ,·ery little credibility in world eves Minister for a start. I look at him as serve us. look what you're 2oinJ? not defc thern Ireland think that it's repres- cannot succeed. the shoe sion that's required. While the You a11d your party alwavs br­ for our position within Northern the leader of the Unionist Partv, or to get." That threat has to be ·faced liew,d that ynu could not hm·e a Trcland. To put it even rQJJre brieflv, in other words as leader of the before there can he any solution vie,v it repressioo continues, instabilitv to use exists and the dani,.er of violence united lrela,td without a united had people gone to the streets of political wing of the Orange Order. to our problem, and we'll see Northern Ireland. Do yor, still be­ Derry in '68 with guns blazing, thev He speaks on behalf of the Unionist whether the Orange card is an ace We told increases. Ifs against that back­ he sent groulld that we are trying very liei•e that? woulrl never have got to the too of Party, and that is a voice which or a deuce, and I believe it's a Yes, I believe that the division~ Duke street and thev would have must be heard in the workin1? out deuce. Mr.Kin very hard to channel people into The 1