Seanad Éireann

Vol. 215 Wednesday, No. 5 9 May 2012

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD ÉIREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Dé Céadaoin, 9 Bealtaine 2012.

Business of Seanad ………………………………223 Order of Business …………………………………224 Sustainable Energy Act 2002: Motion …………………………243 International Agreement: Referral to Joint Committee ……………………243 Review of White Paper on Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers ……………244 Protection of Children’s Health from Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Order for Second Stage ……………………………265 Second Stage …………………………………265 Adjournment Matters Property Tax …………………………………289 Leibhéal Foirne Scoileanna ……………………………291 School Transport ………………………………292 SEANAD ÉIREANN

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Dé Céadaoin, 9 Bealtaine 2012. Wednesday, 9 May 2012.

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Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 12.30 p.m.

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Machnamh agus Paidir.

Reflection and Prayer.

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Business of Seanad An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice of from Senator John Kelly that, on the motion for the Adjournment of the House today, he proposes to raise the following matter:

The need for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to clarify if there will be an amnesty for the €200 second property tax and if there is an amnesty for those who did not realise that they had a liability to pay it.

I have also received notice from Senator Thomas Byrne of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to set out the reasons County Meath received no funding for sports facilities since the Government took office.

I have also received notice from Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh of the following matter:

Go dtabharfadh an tAire Oideachais agus Scoileanna a rá cé mhéid baill don Bóird Ach- omhairc ar Soláthar Foirne Bunscoilaíochta atá Gaeilge Líofa acu, agus ar aistraíodh na aighneachtaí, agus chomhfhreagras gaolmhar, a rinneadh as Gaeilge go Beárla, ionas go mbeadh na baill nách bhfuil Gaeilge acu in ann na habhar sin a thuiscint.

The need for the Minister for Education and Skills to outline how many members of the primary staffing appeals board are fluent in Irish and whether all of the appeals, and other related matters and correspondence, which were made in Irish were translated for the purpose of those on the appeals board without fluent Irish.

I have also received notice from Senator Martin Conway of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Education and Skills to resolve the difficulties that students from Clonlara will have for the academic year 2012-13 in getting school transport to St. Anne’s Community College, Killaloe, County Clare.

I have also received notice from Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Justice and Equality to provide additional resources to the Garda Síochána to develop and fully resource the drugs unit in County Donegal given the societal challenges of drug abuse and drug pushing in the county. 223 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

[An Cathaoirleach.]

I have also received notice from Senator David Cullinane of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to discuss proposed increases in harbour charges at Dunmore East, County Waterford, and the impact it will have on the fishing industry and the tourism sector.

I have also received notice from Senator David Norris of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht to address the way in which contracts from book suppliers from Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin County Councils are being taken away from Irish firms and awarded to foreign companies.

I regard the matters raised by Senators Kelly, Byrne, Ó Clochartaigh, Conway, Ó Domhnaill and Cullinane as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment. I have selected the matters raised by Senators Kelly, Byrne, Ó Clochartaigh and Conway and they will be taken at the conclusion of business. The other Senators may give notice on another day of the matters they wish to raise. I regret I have had to rule out of order the matter raised by Senator Norris as the Minister has no responsibility in the matter. It is a matter for the local authorities.

Order of Business Senator Ivana Bacik: The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re Sustainable Energy Act 2002, back from the Joint Committee on Communications, Natural Resources and Agriculture, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, motion re referral to the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality of the proposed approval by Seanad Éireann of an agreement between the EU and the US on the use and transfer of passenger name records, to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 1; No. 3, statements and questions and answers on——

Senator David Norris: Can the House have a debate on it?

Senator Ivana Bacik: It can do. I agree that it would be good to have a debate on it. No. 3, statements and questions and answers on the review of the White Paper on Irish Aid, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 4.30 p.m. with the contributions of groups’ spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, the contributions of one Sinn Féin Senator not to exceed three minutes and all other Senators not to exceed one minute when asking questions of the Minister; and No. 4, Private Members’ business, the Protection of Children’s Health from Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012 — Second Stage, to be taken from 4.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I ask the Deputy Leader to ensure that the motion on the transfer of data between the EU and the USA returns to the House after it is finished being dealt with by the joint committee. Since late last September I have raised the following issue almost every week, namely, the Government’s inaction on the ongoing and increasing mortgage arrears crisis and distressed mortgages. A number of weeks ago the Leader indicated that the Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Finance, Deputy Brian Hayes, would come here but a debate has not been scheduled for this week. There has been a lack of urgency in dealing with the fact that one in seven mortgages is now in arrears of 90 days or more and the Government needs to address the matter. I know that the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste — and Senator Bacik will state the following as her answer — have set up a special high powered Cabinet committee. The Government could have accepted legislation like 224 Order of 9 May 2012. Business the Family Home Bill tabled by my colleague, Senator MacSharry, and have something in place and ready for people. I ask the Deputy Leader to arrange at the earliest possible opportunity for the Minister of State, Deputy Hayes, to return here. Last November he told me here that the Government would have published the mortgage arrears implementation strategy prior to the budget, and then prior to the end of 201 but it is now 9 May and time has passed. Can the Deputy Leader find out when the Government proposes to complete the review of the community employment schemes? I ask for a commitment that when it has been finalised that it comes here for discussion I also raise the issue of the refusal by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to rule out a waste water treatment charge, on top of the water charges that the Government proposes to introduce. Last week in the Dáil he refused to rule out the introduction of a waste water treatment charge specifically for people living in urban areas and specifically for Dublin. I would like the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to come to this House. We have not forgotten debacles like the household charge or the announcement that water charges will be introduced from 2014. The Minister, Deputy Hogan, needs to come to the Seanad urgently for a debate on these matters. What is the Government’s position on the waste water treatment charge we are hearing about? Is the Government leaking the details of the charge slowly? Will it be used to fund the monstrous sewage treatment plant that is due to be lobbed in on top of the people of north County Dublin at a cost of €2.1 billion to the Exchequer? I ask the Deputy Leader to follow that up with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. I move an amendment to the Order of Business, that the Minister for Justice and Equality come to this House to discuss the specific issue of the closure of 39 Garda stations in urban and rural areas throughout the country.

Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I made a similar request last week and the week before. We should also debate the restrictions that have been imposed on a further ten stations. I have found out, through the Department, that thousands of euro will have to be spent on the installation of CCTV cameras to protect the stations which are now closed or restricted.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should ask a question.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I have learned that prisoners will not be allowed to stay in the downgraded stations and that Garda resources will have to be used to transfer any prisoners detained after 9 p.m. to the nearest full-time Garda station. Furthermore, the Minister should come to this House to confirm whether he has received a report from PricewaterhouseCoopers recommending that 400 Garda stations throughout the country should be closed during this Government’s term in office. I remind the House that the Minister has been in charge for 14 months. During that time, he has closed more Garda stations, or announced plans to do so, than the last Government did during its 14 years in office. The amendment to the Order of Business that I have moved calls on the Minister for Justice and Equality to come to the House to explain his policing policy. Specifically, I would like him to explain to the House why he gave incorrect information to me in this House when I raised the closure of Garda stations in my local area on the Adjournment.

Senator Paul Coghlan: Senator O’Brien has raised three items. He knows well the question of mortgage arrears is high on the Government’s agenda and is still being worked on. We will 225 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

[Senator Paul Coghlan.] hear the Deputy Leader in a few minutes. I think we will have the Minister in the House next week.

Senator Ivana Bacik: That is right.

Senator Paul Coghlan: That commitment is being honoured. The Deputy Leader will expand on that. Senator O’Brien was running ahead of himself when he spoke about the question of waste water. He knows that no charge whatsoever will be introduced before 2014.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I do not.

Senator Paul Coghlan: These are early days. A great deal of detail has yet to be worked out. A brand new authority is being established as a subsidiary of Bord Gáis. The Senator will hear the Minister speaking about this often in due course. There are more serious matters in this country at the moment, such as the referendum that will take place on 31 May next. On the question of water, a great deal has yet to be worked out. Senator O’Brien knows that no one will have to pay a cent prior to 2014.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I was talking about the waste water charge that will be introduced on top of the water charge.

Senator Paul Coghlan: The Senator will get all the detail in due course.

An Cathaoirleach: Does Senator Coghlan have a question for the Deputy Leader?

Senator Paul Coghlan: I do not have a question for her. I look forward to hearing her response. The third issue raised by Senator O’Brien was a justice matter. He knows well that the Minister for Justice and Equality will be in the House tomorrow. The Senator will be able to address anything he likes to the Minister when he contributes to that debate. I look forward to hearing the Deputy Leader expanding further on those topics.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell: I regret the people in the Visitors Gallery are leaving because the question I intend to ask is of great relevance to many of those visiting the Houses. The voices of older people must be included and heard. Older people must be listened to. They have something to tell us of which we might not be aware. They are informed by the lives they have lived, the depth and breadth of their experience and understanding, and the urgency of their age. They have something to tell us about the care they need and are entitled to as they age. The first consultation of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee, which was initiated by the Taoiseach’s 11 nominees and established and developed by the Seanad, related to the rights of older people. The findings of the committee’s report on that matter, which was published in March, have yet to be debated. The committee made findings regarding the UN treaty, the mental capacity legislation, the entitlements of older people, the community care audit, the carer’s allowance regime, the amendment of the Health Act 2007, the travel schemes and the issue of end-of-life care. Such issues need to be debated in the Seanad soon. As Senators, we made a promise to that effect to all relevant stakeholders in the rights of older people at a public hearing on the floor of the Seanad Chamber. I am calling on the Leader of the House to arrange a debate on the rights of older people as a matter of urgency. Such a debate is as urgent and profound as age and ageing.

Senator Rónán Mullen: I commend Senator O’Donnell on what she has just said. I support every word of it. 226 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

I would like the Deputy Leader to arrange for the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, to come to this House to discuss the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland report that has been finalised and published in recent days. We debated media standards with the Minister some weeks ago, but there was a shared feeling in this House that the debate was insufficient. It did not provide for the level of scrutiny we would have liked, particularly with regard to the case of Kevin Reynolds. It is important a further discussion would take place soon. Ample time should be provided not just to those leading off for each group but to all Senators who wish to speak. There are times when short contributions and questions are appropriate, but this issue calls on us to reflect more deeply together. I welcome the decision of the board of RTE to require quarterly monitoring reports to be compiled, setting out how RTE is dealing with the issues that have arisen on foot of the “Prime Time Investigates” documentary. There has been some excellent commentary in recent days. Anna Carragher did us all a particular service by bringing the issue of groupthink to the surface. She suggested the issue arose in the context of this documentary. I came across an interesting quotation in a newspaper about the suggestion that there were mixed views among the production team on the question of whether the doorstepping of Fr. Reynolds, which did not in any way breach the then RTE guidelines, was right. According to the newspaper article, the executive producer of the documentary, Mr. Brian Páircéir, “argued for it on the basis that in the past, priests under scrutiny had tended to ‘disappear’ before they could be interviewed on camera”.

An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator looking for a debate on this today?

Senator Rónán Mullen: I am indeed. The quotation I have cited is not conclusive, but I suggest when we come across that kind of level of assumption about a particular group or category, we begin to understand what groupthink means. Another important issue was raised on the “News at One” when it referred to the high level of intervention and incorporation of legal advice that took place when Charlie Bird and George Lee made a programme about National Irish Bank a number of years ago and asked whether a lower standard was applied when a programme was being made about the clergy. It is easy to ask such questions but difficult to answer them.

An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Rónán Mullen: Yes. Perhaps the Deputy Leader will agree that a sustained consideration of the issue of groupthink, not just within RTE but outside it, is needed now that it has been brought to the surface. Groupthink can flow from editorial hubris when a production team has been highly successful, for example. Equally, we need to consider whether certain assumed cultural ideas and attitudes within an organisation might cause it to treat one category or set of issues differently from another. A debate is urgently needed to allow Senators to discuss that issue and other issues. I would be grateful if the Deputy Leader could make progress in that regard.

Senator John Kelly: Last weekend, I was concerned to read in a Sunday newspaper that the Minister for Health, to save money, is considering the withdrawal of medical cards from 200,000 people who have not used or activated their cards for more than two years. While I accept we should not make payments to general practitioners in respect of medical cards that are not activated, it must be borne in mind that the card holders in question are entitled to their medical cards. I am not in favour of the withdrawal of medical cards from them. The fee per item system that was agreed with general practitioners in the past worked to a degree. It was changed to allow general practitioners to receive payments in respect of each medical card 227 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

[Senator John Kelly.] holder. I would have a problem with the withdrawal of cards from people who derive peace of mind and security from them and who might need them in the future. Rather than proceeding with this ill-conceived proposal, the way forward would be for the Minister to deduct a fee from each general practitioner on the basis of his or her overall percentage of unused medical cards. When legislation relating to general practitioners has been considered in this House in the past, such people have been the subject of some criticism. I brought my son to a general practitioner yesterday for a second visit regarding an ailment that had not cleared up. To be fair to him, I must compliment him on his morals. He did not charge because the medication originally prescribed did not work. There are, therefore, general practitioners with high moral standards and I must compliment them. I ask the Deputy Leader to relay to the Minister for Health my view that withdrawing medical cards from patients just because they have not used them is not the way forward.

Senator Marc MacSharry: Will the Deputy Leader ask the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, to come to the House to comment on the statements made by the Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Patrick Honohan, in London in recent days. The Governor strongly advocated a European-level resolution agency for banking debt. The European Union and the euro, in particular, were saved as a result of the severe actions taken here over the years, including bank guarantees and austerity measures, which measures nobody would wish for but which the people have had no choice but to sustain in these difficult times. With the admission of the Governor of the Central Bank, the Government should move swiftly, irrespective of the campaign afoot regarding the referendum. I will still continue to advocate very strongly for a “Yes” vote. Mainland Europe, including the other countries in the eurozone, owe the Irish people for having saved the euro. The Governor of the Central Bank is absolutely correct to make his suggestion on a Europe-level agency to take over the banking debt, particularly the payment of bondholders for bust banks. In September of the year in question, actions that were taken here saved the euro. History will record this. It is appropriate that the European governments, led by our Minister, Deputy Noonan, take the initiative and deliver for the Irish by setting up the agency advocated by the Governor yesterday.

Senator Tony Mulcahy: I will be a little parochial today. I am a Member for just over 13 months, as are the rest of the Senators. A monumental decision was taken today on Shannon Airport and Shannon Industrial Estate. Shannon is my town. I welcome the decision by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, and the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, to set up an autonomous debt-free Shannon Airport and industrial estate under the management of a new body. The industrial estate will be under the remit of the IDA where the placement of industry is concerned. Enterprise Ireland will handle the enterprise side, and responsibility for tourism has been transferred to Fáilte Ireland. Many present may not know that the demise of the industrial estate and airport over the past ten years has been phenomenal. Today, however, is a new day. I welcome the courage of both Ministers and their staff in making their decision. I have no doubt that, by the end of the year, there will be a new body in place in the Shannon region free from the dead hand of the DAA. Will the Deputy Leader ask both Ministers to keep us informed about the decision- making process involving the steering group over the next seven or eight months and keep us updated on progress. I welcome the decision and wish the Ministers the very best of luck in that regard.

Senator Katherine Zappone: I echo the call by Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell for an urgent debate on the rights of older people on foot of the public consultation report. The 228 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

Senator outlined many of the recommendations contained therein. The Leader promised a debate on this matter. Given the work of the consultation committee, we are a little ahead of the media. Many colleagues will have seen the “Prime Time” report last evening on the fair deal scheme. It highlighted the need for a debate on the rights of older people. It demonstrated that law-makers must find a rights-based solution to provide appropriate services for older people. Senator O’Donnell identified a number of the recommendations we made at a high level in terms of the United Nations and at a very practical level in terms of legislation. There is a need for mental capacity legislation, which has become even more urgent on foot of the Oireachtas committee’s report. It has been recommended that Ireland encourage the drafting of a UN treaty on the rights of older people. This is the first time a European parliament has recommended this. My colleagues in Galway sent their report to the European Com- mission, which said it was excellent. It is, therefore, important that we have this debate as urgently as possible. It has been recommended that those responsible for the HSE’s perform- ance information system should carry out an audit of all community care services for older people. This would be particularly helpful given the way the media is covering the issue. I second Senator O’Donnell’s request for a debate as soon as possible.

Senator Jimmy Harte: I echo Senator O’Brien’s call for an honest debate on policing, especially on rural Garda stations. Crime levels have reduced by 12% in the past year. The previous Government should take some credit for that as the drop did not occur since last February alone. While I agree with the Senator that policing should be discussed, I must point out to members of the Opposition, but not those in Fianna Fáil, that a delegation of Sinn Féin members went last week to the chief superintendent in Letterkenny voicing their concern over the closure of rural stations in Donegal, and they said they were satisfied with the response. I do not like pointing out the obvious: in Northern Ireland, 21 PSNI stations, including rural ones, are being closed, and the two Sinn Féin MLAs are saying they are delighted with this.

An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Deputy Leader?

Senator Jimmy Harte: It is on inviting the Minister to the House.

Senator David Cullinane: In the Assembly——

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Harte, without interruption. Has he a question for the Deputy Leader?

Senator Jimmy Harte: I spoke to a local sergeant in Carrigart in Donegal, a rural station. He read from a newspaper that Sinn Féin members said last summer they were monitoring the activities of Carrigart Garda station because they were not happy with how the law was being applied there. The local sergeant was applying the law and Sinn Féin was not happy with the arrangements. This was in the local press. It is not new for Sinn Féin because, as one reads in the Smithwick report, the Garda station in Dundalk was being monitored from the telephone box outside.

An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Deputy Leader?

Senator Jimmy Harte: As the local sergeant said to me this morning, Sinn Féin——

An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Deputy Leader?

Senator Jimmy Harte: I ask for a debate with the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Does the Minister support the amendment? 229 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

Senator Jimmy Harte: I support the call for the Minister to be invited to the House at some stage. I am not seconding the amendment. The local stations in Donegal were always monitored by Sinn Féin, but for the wrong reasons.

An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seconding the amendment?

Senator Jimmy Harte: I wish the Minister would come in to address the issue.

Senator David Norris: I agree with Senator Mullen in that I believe a grievous wrong was done to Fr. Reynolds. However, the focus of the debate the Senator has called for is far too narrow; it should encompass the entire media. We have had a couple of meetings in here in this regard. I tried to introduce a privacy Bill. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, says he will now have an inquiry into an inquiry. It is becoming a laughable procrastination. Rabbitte by name, rabbit by nature; it is just appalling.

An Cathaoirleach: I ask the Senator to withdraw that remark.

Senator David Norris: I will withdraw it because I want to get on with my substantial point, which concerns the gutlessness of the politicians in facing this issue.

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has withdrawn the remark.

Senator David Norris: The Government is concentrating entirely on the issue of Fr. Reynolds as if it were an isolated case, but we all know perfectly well it is not. I refer not only to RTE but to the sheer effrontery of the print media in affecting a self-righteous tone and talking about the evils of lying, door-stepping——

An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Deputy Leader?

Senator David Norris: I am supporting the call for a debate on the failure of media to investigate properly before they publish. Every single one of them has been guilty of this. Let us have a proper inquiry. If we cannot do so ourselves, let us bring Lord Justice Leveson over here. Let him do it. Let us have a proper judicial inquiry into what is nothing but a collection of whited sepulchres. Since the Deputy Leader was gracious enough to respond to my question on No. 2, will she give us a guarantee that the matter will be brought back from the committee? It is appropriate to go to that committee. I am concerned about the issue. Only today we heard about the underpants bomb. First, we were fed the idea that a secret agent was involved and that when he emerged from the lavatory, smoke emerged and he was jumped on.

An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Deputy Leader?

Senator David Norris: I have heard of a smoking gun but this is the first time I have heard of a smoking bum. It now turns out the individual in question was supposed to be a double agent.

An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Deputy Leader?

Senator David Norris: What exactly is going on? To whom are we handing over the information? I want to know the precise nature of the information. I ask the Deputy Leader to be kind enough to address this very serious issue about the handing over of information about Irish citizens to what is clearly a totally incompetent authority in a foreign power. 230 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

Senator Paul Bradford: I am not an expert on the subject of groupthink. We certainly had groupthink in this country for a decade on the question of property prices and the development of an economy based on a property boom. We must acknowledge our current economic difficulty was caused by the property splurge. I raised this the House a couple of weeks of ago that once again we seem to be wishing a new property boom upon ourselves. I have no difficulty with NAMA’s decision yesterday to offload some properties but certain media groups have recently been writing that property prices are increasing again, as if that is automatically a good thing. The purpose 1o’clock of a house should be to provide a home for a family and housing estates should be places where families and individuals live, not investment vehicles for other persons. We need a debate with the Minister of State responsible for housing so we can chart the future of the property market in this country. If we believe repeating the mistakes of the last decade, and seeing property prices inflating will return the economy to growth, we are making a grave mistake. I urge caution regarding the welcome for increased property prices. We should hope property prices will be at a level where families can afford to buy houses and homes. It would be helpful if the Minister of State, who has shown her capability since she took responsibility for the housing portfolio, should report progress on her ideas on the property market and housing in general.

Senator David Cullinane: Sticking to the theme of groupthink, we certainly had that in this House in recent weeks when we had discussions on the austerity treaty. There were 56 in favour and four against the treaty in this House, but that is not a reflection of events outside the Chamber in this State or across Europe. Looking at the elections in France, Greece, Germany and Italy, people voted against austerity and bank bailouts and voted for a growth strategy. Francois Hollande spoke about the need for a growth strategy and now the Taoiseach and Tánaiste are supporting those comments. We must put it up to those who are now coming around to the view that we need a growth strategy to spell out exactly what that will mean for the country.

Senator Cáit Keane: We are not coming around to that view.

Senator David Cullinane: Despite what Members on the Government side might say, they have lambasted those of us on the left who have called for a stimulus and growth strategy in recent years.

Senator Jimmy Harte: The left?

Senator David Cullinane: Which of the pre-election commitments will the Government implement? Will it be the €7 billion stimulus promised by Fine Gael to invest in energy or the strategic investment bank of €2.8 promised by the Labour Party, or will it be the €7 billion stimulus we have called for, where we can use money from the National Pensions Reserve Fund?

Senator Pat O’Neill: The National Pensions Reserve Fund will not last forever.

Senator David Cullinane: Following those elections in Europe, and the fact the people in those countries are now clearly opposed to austerity and support a strategy of growth, it is important the people of this country do likewise and reject this flawed, bad treaty. It is important this House debates the meaning of a growth agenda for the people of this State and the people of Europe. 231 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

Senator Marie Moloney: Senator Norris, who has left the Chamber, should withdraw his comments about the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources.

An Cathaoirleach: The comments have been withdrawn.

Senator Marie Moloney: I welcome the extension of the JobBridge scheme to lone parents and those on disability allowance. I have been pursuing this with the Minister for some time and I am delighted it has come to fruition. On my way home from Dublin on Thursday, I stopped at a service station and met four delightful young girls, Colleen, Caoimhe, Fiona and Ciara. These young girls told me they had just won the company of the year award at the national finals of Junior Achievement Company Programme. They will now go on to represent Ireland in the European finals in Bucharest in July. They formed a company called Sign4Life and developed an application for Irish sign language for the deaf and hard of hearing. It has opened doors for people to communicate with others. As well as wishing these girls well in the European finals, we should have a debate in the House with the Minister for Education and Skills on Irish sign language, which is a language specifically for the deaf and hard of hearing, and for it to be put on the curriculum in order that it can be taught in schools. This would open many doors for the two children born deaf in Ireland each week, 90% of them born to hearing parents.

Senator Terry Leyden: I second Senator O’Brien’s amendment to the Order of Business. Will the Deputy Leader of the House arrange an early debate on a study carried out by the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland on the use of cannabis, which showed it can physically change the brain and increase the risk of schizophrenia in adolescence of those who are geneti- cally vulnerable? The study’s lead author, Dr. Áine Behan, of the psychology department of the Royal College of Surgeons of Ireland, launched the study. It is important we have this debate. I am former chairman of the National Drugs Advisory Committee of the Department of Health and we found cannabis is a gateway drug. There has been an increase in the use of this drug and growing cannabis has become more common. The most recent studies by the Department of Health found 8% of children of school-going age admitted smoking cannabis in the previous year, with 5% using drugs in the previous 30 days. It is a serious situation that can lead to harder drugs. It is important we debate this study in this House because it would be worthwhile to bring this to the attention of the public. There is an idea now that it is acceptable to advocate for the use of cannabis or even to use it. It is a dangerous drug, and this has at last been proven by this study. For a number of years I was chairman of the National Drugs Advisory Committee and we were quite convinced it was a gateway drug so it is important we do not ignore this report. The Government and the Garda Síochána must continue to clamp down on the growing, importation, distribution and use of cannabis in this country.

Senator Michael Comiskey: I call on the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to put in place an new agri-environment options scheme, AEOS, for farmers. There has been no scheme for a number of months and it is important that farmers who are exiting REPS 3 and 4 should have a scheme available to them. An environmental scheme has been in place for 18 years in Ireland and this is the first time there is a danger there will not be a scheme. All of those schemes put money into rural communities and create jobs.

Senator Sean D. Barrett: Arising from the points made by Senators MacSharry and Bradford, we are moving towards a stimulus package, with the French election results confirming that. It is important the package actually stimulates and we do not end up bankrolling bankers, bureau- 232 Order of 9 May 2012. Business crats and builders and end up with empty airports, hotels and golf courses. This must be done skilfully so I ask the Deputy Leader and the Leader to monitor for the House the progress in the establishment of the proposed Government economic service and its role in designing a genuine and efficient employment stimulus for the country.

Senator Martin Conway: It is not often that we have a good news story day in this House. The announcement by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Minister for Social Protection on Shannon Airport and Shannon Development is a good news story. This should have happened years ago but, thankfully, it will happen now. The Minister for Trans- port, Tourism and Sport announced earlier that Shannon Airport will finally be separated from the Dublin Airport Authority. Shannon Development will lose it tourism remit to Fáilte Ireland and its foreign direct investment to the IDA, where they should have been in the first place. What is left of Shannon Development will merge with Shannon Airport to create a new entity that will drive job creation in the region. The new body will run the airport and this will act as a stimulus to attract aviation-related industries to Shannon industrial estate and the airport. Shannon Airport pioneered aviation in Ireland going back to Dr. Brendan O’Regan years ago. We have a proud history of aircraft leasing, maintenance and related industries. Hopefully, through the two Ministers and the new entity, a world class aviation centre will be created in Ireland. Such a centre does not exist in Europe and there is no reason Ireland cannot champion itself as an aviation hotspot and a place with first-class knowledge, the best mechanics, engin- eers and technicians and financiers in the aircraft industry. The new entity will in time create thousands of jobs in the Shannon area.

An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Deputy Leader?

Senator Martin Conway: There has been positive feedback from all sides of the political divide and from the tourism and commercial sectors in County Clare. A steering committee has been set up to monitor the implementation of this break up over the next eight months. Will the Deputy Leader arrange a debate on this new entity in her own good time?

Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I welcome the Government’s announcement of additional places on the JobBridge scheme. This has been a successful scheme to date and I welcome its extension. Will the Deputy Leader ask the Minister for Social Protection if it would be possible to extend the time people can remain on the scheme? It is currently 12 months. Most of the participants are employed in the private sector but a few are employed in the public sector, particularly in the education system. Their placements have been a success and I would like an extension to be granted to them to afford them the opportunity of another 12 months, thus enhancing their employability in the future.

Senator Michael Mullins: I welcome the BAI report into the “Prime Time Investigates” programme, “Mission to Prey” and, in particular, the segment that defamed Fr. Kevin Reynolds. We are all saddened that the report found a cavalier attitude and shoddy and unpro- fessional journalism within RTE. I support the call for a debate on the report. However, I also call on the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to ensure another segment of the programme, which referred to Brother Gerard Dillon, be investigated. The reason I call for an investigation is RTE made a finding of fact pronouncing Brother Dillon guilty of criminal activity on national television.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator cannot name people on the Order of Business. He is under privilege and he cannot name people.

Senator Michael Mullins: This is in the public domain. The research and sourcing—— 233 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

An Cathaoirleach: It does not matter whether it is in the public domain or not. The Senator is using the privilege of the House and I cannot tolerate that.

Senator Michael Mullins: I call on the Minister to ensure this segment of the programme is investigated because the family have been in touch with me and with hundreds of people in South Africa where this brother ministered for 60 years. They have failed to come up with one person who can corroborate the evidence produced by the programme which used one individual who made the allegation.

An Cathaoirleach: This is not the forum to raise that. You can use an Adjournment debate to outline the details.

Senator Michael Mullins: The forum is here.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator cannot raise this on the Order of Business.

Senator Michael Mullins: I am calling on the Minister to do this because the family feels RTE, the BAI and the Minister are colluding to prevent the investigation of the Dillon segment from taking place. That is a serious matter for the family.

An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Deputy Leader?

Senator Michael Mullins: Will the Deputy Leader request that the Minister participates in a debate in the House and asks that the segment referring to Brother Dillon be investigated as a matter of urgency?

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator cannot name people on the Order of Business.

Senator Feargal Quinn: I seldom support Sinn Féin but I support Senator Cullinane’s call for a debate on the stability treaty. Every time people who advocate a “No” vote in the referendum opens their mouths, they lose support. There is no case whatsoever to be made for a “No” vote. The fact that four Members believe they should vote “No” means it would be worthwhile to have a debate. We probably should have one every week for the next three weeks. The vote is three weeks tomorrow but we have not had enough discussion on it. There was an interesting meeting earlier attended by 200 people representing business in Ireland. The Taoiseach, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and a few others made the case for a “Yes” vote. The basic case is that the reputation of Ireland has been enhanced over the past six months. Ireland was highly regarded five or six years ago. Three years ago, the State was a huge worry for everyone in Europe but over the past weekend leading European voices said they hoped and assumed Ireland would vote “Yes” because there is so much at stake. It would be worthwhile to have a debate on the treaty if only to hear those opposed to it argue their case for voting “No” because they will lose the case strongly. Senator Moloney called for sign language to be included in the school curriculum. I have experience of arranging sign language classes. It is something people can adapt to quickly and it supports many of those who do not have good hearing.

Senator Colm Burke: I agree with Senator Quinn about the importance of voting “Yes” in this referendum and of replying to Senator Cullinane. The Government has been to the fore in pushing for the creation of jobs and I refer to three examples — PayPal, Eli Lilly and Apple. Today’s newspapers list job announcements over the past six months. It is important we generate a positive news story about what is being done and what will continue to be done by the Government. We need to restore confidence in Ireland and the Government is doing 234 Order of 9 May 2012. Business that. I would welcome a weekly debate to highlight the positive actions being taken and that will be taken but we need to ensure a “Yes” vote in the referendum. I refer to the report by Mr. Justice Quirke on the payment of compensation awards by the courts by instalment. The report was produced in 2010. Two weeks ago, the High Court made an award of €11 million and the presiding judge again raised the issue of the need for new legislation to facilitate periodic payments of court awards. The report is comprehensive and sets out 13 recommendations. Will the Deputy Leader ask the Minister for Justice and Equality to come to the House to debate the issue and how the report can be implemented? There is no point producing a report and leaving it to sit there. It is a constructive and well thought out report. It is time we moved forward and implemented its recommendations.

Senator Paschal Mooney: Last week one of our most successful Irish traditional music groups, Dervish, was prevented from attending a concert in Israel. This was at the invitation of a peace activist who was attempting to promote peace and reconciliation. It came about as a result of intimidation and bullying on social networks by a group in this country which, for its own misguided reasons, believes that a cultural boycott will somehow enhance and improve the plight of the Palestinian people. I believe the overwhelming majority of the people totally oppose this action. Ireland has a wonderful image abroad not only in the sporting field but primarily in the cultural field. Anyone who knows anything about Ireland will know about our music and culture, which we all hold dear. I cannot understand why any group representing a particular point of view would believe they could enhance their agenda but not realise the considerable damage they are doing to the image of Ireland abroad. I understand that to date more than 250 musicians have now been embroiled in this so-called cultural boycott. There is no cultural boycott in this country and I would be grateful if the Deputy Leader would clarify, once and for all, that there is an even-handed approach to the Middle Eastern problem and that while we fully support and understand the plight of the Palestinians and the human rights abuses to which they are subject, there is another story, namely, the plight of Israelis under constant rocket attacks from across their borders and sur- rounded by hostile nations. Why is this group so silent when it comes to the outrageous human rights abuses that are currently being perpetrated in Syria? The reason is that Syria is one of the mentors of groups that represent the Palestinian cause. I call on the Deputy Leader to clarify the position. I believe she will have the support of the House. I am speaking for the vast majority of people in my party in condemning this attempt to introduce music and culture into politics. Certainly, it is not helping the Palestinian cause. I am pleased to say that the Palestinian Embassy in this country has disassociated itself from the action. This a dangerous development and I call on this group to desist from any further attempts. I praise the Tánaiste for his actions. When a similar attempt was made last year to ensure that an Israeli film festival would not go ahead in the country, he and the Minister for Justice and Equality turned up as an act of solidarity and to inform people such as those in this group that through what they are trying to do they do not represent the overwhelming majority of the people. I ask them sincerely to desist from any future intimidation and bullying of Irish musicians and artists who wish to attend or to go abroad anywhere in the world, not only to Israel.

Senator Catherine Noone: I agree with Senator Quinn’s comments on the fiscal treaty. The “No” campaigners are doing the canvassing for the “Yes” campaign. I was amazed to hear the stuff the “No” campaigners were coming out with on our national airwaves this morning. I welcome their voice and the air time they are getting because no right thinking individual in 235 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

[Senator Catherine Noone.] the country would go along with the la-la land stuff that is going on. I agree with Senator Quinn’s comments.

Senator David Norris: So half the people are idiots, are they?

Senator Catherine Noone: They are not my words, they are the Senator’s words.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Noone, without interruption.

Senator David Norris: “La-la land” sounds fairly close to it.

Senator Catherine Noone: I welcome the figures released by UPC at the end of last week, showing that more than 200,000 people per week are tuning in to the new political channel, UPC 801. It shows there is a significant appetite for unfiltered, unbiased information. It shows that people are engaging with politics, at least to some degree. Now, UPC has decided to move the channel UPC 801 to a channel in the 200s. This way more people will come across the channel and start watching it because at the moment many people do not realise it exists. This is to be welcomed. The next step is for the Oireachtas to seek other ways to try to get the people to know what is going on in the Houses. I call on RTE to make political programmes more accessible to people who are not night owls or insomniacs. The figures show people are watching politics on television. The national broadcaster should take UPC’s lead.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I second the amendment to the Order of Business, if it has not already been seconded.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Leyden seconded the amendment.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: Senator Quinn’s words today about having a debate on the fiscal treaty each week between now and referendum day were sensible. We should have a common sense discussion on the treaty. It is so significant and important to Ireland and to our future. Those on the opposing side of the treaty are the same people who said this country and other Governments were behaving irresponsibly on budgeting. The treaty will bring responsibility in respect of budgeting. I am unsure how the “No” campaign can position themselves after what has been said over many months. I refer to the words expressed last night by the Governor of the Central Bank, Patrick Honohan. He called for European-wide responsibility on the banking debt issue. That is the way forward and we should explore this option at every available opportunity. I call on the Deputy Leader to ask the Minister for Finance to come to the House to discuss this issue and how we can pursue that avenue as a sovereign State within the eurozone and the European Union with the assistance of the Central Bank Governor. We should consider some form of write-down of banking debt but it is a separate issue to the treaty and it is only mixing the case to bring it in as part of the treaty debate. The issue should be explored and pursued.

Senator Cáit Keane: I support the call by Senator Moloney for a debate on the deaf. This was the first issue I raised when I entered the Seanad more than one year ago. Irish sign language should be included in any debate. I was a founding member of the model school for the deaf project. It is important for all-inclusive education. The Minister stated he would come back with an update on the issue. I welcome and congratulate the four girls the Senator met at the filling station on their great achievement and on the app they have produced. I have a question on the ageing strategy. I support the Senators who have called for a further debate on this issue. When we discussed the matter previously, the Minister of State indicated 236 Order of 9 May 2012. Business that she would bring forward the national positive ageing strategy. This is one of the main priorities of the Older & Bolder campaign for senior citizens. This year is the European year for active ageing. The Minister of State should strive to bring forward this document in 2012. I call on the Minister of State to make a statement on the national positive ageing strategy. I hope she will have it finalised in 2012, the European year for active ageing.

Senator Pat O’Neill: I do not often agree with Senator Leyden but I agree with his views and his call for a debate in the House on cannabis use. A report by the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland outlined the problems that the abuse of cannabis can cause in adolescence, including schizophrenia. A debate should be held in the House. During the week I saw a picture in a newspaper of a protest in Molesworth Street in which a Member of the Lower House was campaigning for legalising the use of cannabis. It is a disgrace that Members of the Lower House would do this.

An Cathaoirleach: We are not discussing Members of the Lower House.

Senator Pat O’Neill: Recently, certain Members of the Lower House have proposed that people break the law in respect of the household charge. Now they are calling for the legalising of the use of cannabis. This is an important issue because it affects young people. The picture showed young people on the street in that protest. We are bringing forward the vehicle clamping Bill later this year but it should be much sooner. Will the Minister clarify to the House whether it is lawful for private clamping companies to apply disproportionate sanctions amounting in some cases to €120 per day? I will give one example. In the Dublin City Council area, the fee to release a clamped vehicle is €80. The charges of various private companies are €90, €100 and €120. I know of a person who was clamped by mistake during this bank holiday weekend in her private apartment building. She left on Friday and when she returned on Monday evening, she found that her car had been clamped for four days.

An Cathaoirleach: That matter ought to be raised on the Adjournment.

Senator Pat O’Neill: I want to give an example because it is important. It cost her €480 to have the clamp removed, an extra €35 because it was after 10 p.m. and an additional €5touse her credit card. She had to pay this money because the clamping company had nothing to do with the management company. There are cowboys operating in this regard. It is important, therefore, that the Bill be brought before the House as soon as possible to ensure there are proper sanctions to be imposed on clamping companies.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: I support Senator Darragh O’Brien in asking the Deputy Leader to invite the Minister for Finance or the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, to come to the Seanad to discuss the mortgage problem. I welcome recent reports that the banks plan to introduce a split mortgage product which would allow borrowers to shelve part of their loan, with no repayments and, crucially, no interest payable on that part of the loan. It would not constitute debt forgiveness; there is no such thing, rather it would amount to debt transference. The taxpayer would have to foot the bill, but if we could get this through, it would dramatically reduce monthly outgoings for cash-strapped families and give them breathing space. This, along with the Keane report which on its own will not solve the problem, would assist thousands of families in these difficult times. I, therefore, ask the Minister to come into the House because the Department of Finance official, Mr. Declan Keane, raised this issue with the banks last September and it is time we got this measure through. 237 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

Senator Eamonn Coghlan: Senator O’Brien has made reference to the number of Garda stations that will close in the coming years and the cost of providing CCTV security systems in these stations. To what extent will the Department of Justice and Equality save money in that regard? I raise a point made to me by the organisers of the Athy triathlon, TriAthy. This event has been held for the past seven years and enjoyed enormous success and co-operation from An Garda Síochána. However, at a recent meeting the organisers were informed by the Garda that they would have to pay €10,000 for policing the event. That is a cost the organisers of the event cannot absorb.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: It is outrageous.

Senator Eamonn Coghlan: Athy has been designated as a RAPID programme town and aside from the positive economic advantages such an event brings to it, it is a key driver of community activism and enhances civil pride. The event has a positive influence——

An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Deputy Leader?

Senator Eamonn Coghlan: Yes, I have, if the Cathaoirleach will bear with me. The event has a positive influence on health, as well as the tourism and social aspects of the town. It is imperative, therefore, that we try to follow the stated objectives of the national task force on obesity in increasing the level of physical activity. This type of sports event does this.

An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate on the issue?

Senator Eamonn Coghlan: A justifiable case can be made for the Garda to waive its fee. I call on the Minister to examine the matter before it affects all other amateur sports events taking place in Ireland.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Well said.

Senator Mary Moran: I commend the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, for her announcement that the number of places on the JobBridge scheme will increase from 5,000 to 6,000 and that the scheme will be extended to allow applications from recipients of lone parent and disability allowance. I call on the Deputy Leader to ask the Minister for Health to come into the House to comment on the delay on the part of the health authorities in assessing within the legal time limits thousands of children with disabilities. Any delay in making an assessment can be very damaging for children with disabilities who need access to early intervention and relevant services as quickly as possible. Under the Disability Act, the Health Service Executive has a statutory obligation to assess children who have been referred to it within a maximum time- frame of six months. Alarmingly, it is estimated that up to 80% of children who require assessment, or approximately 2,500 children a year, are not being assessed within the legal time limits. It is very difficult for a parent or a guardian to hear that his or her child requires an assessment, and a delay in making an assessment of his or her needs adds to that difficulty.

An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader? That is a suitable matter to be raised on the Adjournment.

Senator Mary Moran: We all know that the earlier intervention can be provided for and supports put in place the more beneficial it will be for the family as a whole. I, therefore, call on the Deputy Leader to ask the Minister to come into the House to discuss the issue. 238 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

Senator Ivana Bacik: I agree with Senator Darragh O’Brien and also Senator David Norris that the motion on the transfer of passenger records between the European Union and the United States might be brought back to the House for a debate on the subject. We will scruti- nise it fully at the justice committee, of which I am a member. No one has a difficulty with us referring it without debate, but I would welcome a debate on it when it is brought back from the committee. I will speak to the Leader about organising such a debate. Senator Darragh O’Brien also asked for a debate on the mortgage arrears crisis. The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Brian Hayes, will be in the House next Tuesday, 15 May. Work on that matter is proceeding.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: For how long?

Senator Ivana Bacik: I do not have the time yet, but he is due to come to the House. I understand it will be immediately after the Order of Business. On the review of community employment schemes, I will certainly look into the matter. It would be useful to have a debate on it in the Seanad. Senator Paul Coghlan referred to the wastewater treatment charge. It has been made clear that no water charges will be imposed until 2014. Therefore, that issue is not imminent. The Senator also sought an amendment to the Order of Business, that the Minister for Justice and Equality come into the House for a debate on the closure of Garda stations. A number of other Senators also raised this issue. We can certainly ask the Minister to come into the House on some future date. He will be here tomorrow for two and a half hours to introduce the Criminal Justice (Withholding of Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill, but I do not believe he will be available to come into the House today. Therefore, I will not accept the amendment proposed, but I am open to asking the Minister to come into the House on some future date. Senator Marie Louise O’Donnell raised an important point on the report of the Seanad Public Consultation Committee on the rights of older people. Those hearings were excellent and I would welcome an opportunity to debate the report in the House. I have checked and understand the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, will come into the House to speak on it on Tuesday, 12 June. A debate has already been organised. I commend Senators Kather- ine Zappone and Susan O’Keeffe, in particular, for all their work in compiling the report following the hearings held in the House. Senator Rónán Mullen also supported the call for a debate on the report. I will follow the Leader’s example in not responding to Members not in the Chamber. A number of Senators referred to the report of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland on the RTE programme, “Prime Time Investigates”. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, was in the House on 22 February for a full debate on media issues. I have no difficulty in arranging for him to come into the House again, perhaps before the summer recess. I am conscious that he has sought certain information from the board of RTE and that there are ongoing discussions. Therefore, it would not be appropriate to hold such a debate in the next week or so, but we could certainly invite him to come into the House before the end of this term. Senator John Kelly raised the important issue of ghost medical cards, which is the expression being used. I agree with the Senator that it is a major concern if medical cards are being withdrawn simply because they have not been used. However, I understand a review is taking place of the numbers of such medical cards to determine if the persons involved are deceased 239 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

[Senator Ivana Bacik.] or have emigrated, in which case it is clear an issue arises about continuing them. We could monitor the position and request that the Minister come before the House if it is an ongoing issue. I concur with Senator Kelly as I, too, have found some general practitioners to be very obliging in not charging for second visits. Senator MacSharry referred to the comments of the Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Honohan, and called for the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, to come before the House. The Government position is entirely in keeping with the Governor’s comments on the need for a European wide strategy on recapitalisation. It continues to work on this issue, which may be a matter for a future debate. While I disagree with some of Senator MacSharry’s comments on the 2008 bank guarantee, the House could have a useful debate on the comments of the Governor of the Central Bank.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Senator Bacik voted in favour of the bank guarantee.

Senator Ivana Bacik: I voted against it.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: She voted in favour of it in this House.

Senator Ivana Bacik: In September.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: She walked through the lobbies.

An Cathaoirleach: Please allow the Deputy Leader to continue without interruption.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I am merely asking the Deputy Leader to set the record straight. The Labour Party supports the ongoing bank guarantee.

Senator Ivana Bacik: Senator Mulcahy was the first speaker to raise today’s announcement on Shannon Airport by the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, and the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar. I will write to the Ministers to welcome the decision and seek updates, as requested by Senator Mulcahy. Senator Zappone sought a debate on the rights of older people. As I noted, a debate on the issue has been arranged for 12 June. She also sought a debate on the report into the “Prime Time Investigates” programme on Irish missionaries abroad. We may have such a debate in the coming weeks. Senator Harte supported the call for a debate on policing and noted that crime levels have been reducing, which is a welcome development. Senator Norris was in flying form when he sought a debate on the media and privacy, making a number of puns. He also supported the call for a debate on the motion on the transfer of information between the European Union and the United States. I understand that despite the news on the underpants bomb, there will be no requirement for persons to remove underwear at airport security locations, which is a matter of some relief. The House will debate the media and privacy. A debate on mortgage arrears, as requested by Senator Bradford, will be held on Tuesday next. Senator Cullinane raised the stability treaty and the need for growth. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade made clear his warm welcome for incoming President Hollande’s growth oriented strategy. The Government has long argued for such an approach 240 Order of 9 May 2012. Business as Ireland has much to gain from stimulus measures to promote growth. As other speakers noted, it would be useful to have a further debate on this issue. In light of the limited time available before the referendum takes place, I may speak to the other leaders about having a debate without a Minister present. The House debated the treaty on 14 March and the referendum Bill on 23 April. We could have a further debate in the context of the referendum campaign, although it would probably take place without a Minister. We will arrange a meeting of the leaders to discuss the matter. Like Senator Moloney, I welcome the extension of the JobBridge programme and congratulate the four girls who have developed an app — application software — for sign language, a most innovative idea. It would be good to have a debate on this issue and I note Senator Keane supported Senator Moloney’s request for such a debate. A great deal of work is being done on the development and recognition of sign language in the centre for deaf studies in Trinity College Dublin. I support Senator Leyden’s call for a debate on the report of the Royal College of Surgeons on cannabis. Senator Comiskey called for a debate on the agri-environment options scheme for farmers. It may be useful to raise the matter on the Adjournment. Senator Barrett joined calls for a debate on stimulus and growth. As I noted, we may organise such a debate in the coming fortnight, albeit perhaps without a Minister. Senator Conway referred to the announcement today on Shannon Airport. I also look forward to a world class aviation centre at the airport. We may have a debate on the issue in good time given that the announcement has just been made. Senator Wilson also welcomed the extension of the JobBridge scheme. Senator Mullins referred to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland’s report on the RTE programme on missionaries abroad. We will arrange a debate on the issue before the end of the term. Senator Quinn requested debates on the stability treaty and sign language, both of which I have addressed. Senator Colm Burke requested a debate on the referendum, which we will organise, and raised the issue of the Quirke report. I will ascertain whether the Minister for Justice and Equality is available to discuss the issue in the House. The Senator may wish to raise the matter on the Adjournment if he wishes to make a specific point. Senator Mooney referred to the band, Dervish. While I am not aware of the details of the case, I can look into the matter. I thank him for praising the Tánaiste’s balanced approach to the Middle East. We had a good debate on foreign affairs with the Tánaiste during which the issue of Israel and Palestine was raised. Senator Noone referred to the stability treaty, which I have addressed. While I am not aware of UPC political channel 901, I take her point. Senator Ó Domhnaill also referred to the treaty and the comments of the Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Honohan. I will try to arrange a debate on that issue. The Minister for Finance has emphasised the benefits of an EU level approach to recapitalisation, which is a view shared by the Governor. Senator Keane referred to sign language and the national positive ageing strategy. The latter can be raised with the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, when she comes before the House on 12 June. 241 Order of 9 May 2012. Business

[Senator Ivana Bacik.]

Senator O’Neill voiced support for a debate on the report on cannabis and called on the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to introduce the clamping Bill. I will have to consult the legislative programme as I am not sure what is the position with the Bill. I hope it will be introduced without delay and it would be good to have it introduced first in this House. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, will tomorrow introduce in this House the Criminal Justice (Withholding Information on Offences Against Children and Vulnerable Persons) Bill, while last week the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Simon Coveney, introduced a Bill on animal rights and animal welfare in this House. It is always welcome to have legislation introduced first in the Seanad. The debate on mortgage arrears requested by Senator Jim D’Arcy will take place next week. I have written to the Minister of State, Deputy John Perry, on foot of a request by Senator Landy seeking a briefing with all colleagues in the audiovisual room with representatives of the two pillar banks. I hope such a briefing will take place. Senator Eamonn Coghlan raised the closure of Garda stations and referred to the Athy triathlon, TriAthy. While I agree with the Senator’s sentiments, the specific point he makes could be raised on the Adjournment. Senator Moran referred to the extension of the JobBridge programme to lone parents and those on disability allowance, which I welcome. We can seek to have the Minister for Health come before the House to discuss delays in the assessment of children. This is a matter of considerable concern which could also be raised on the Adjournment.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Darragh O’Brien has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: “That a debate on the closure of Garda stations and the restricted opening hours of other Garda stations be taken today”. Is the amendment being pressed?

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Yes.

Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 20; Níl, 30.

Tá

Barrett, Sean D. O’Brien, Darragh. Byrne, Thomas. O’Donovan, Denis. Crown, John. O’Sullivan, Ned. Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor. Cullinane, David. Ó Domhnaill, Brian. Daly, Mark. Quinn, Feargal. Leyden, Terry. Reilly, Kathryn. MacSharry, Marc. Walsh, Jim. Mooney, Paschal. White, Mary M. Mullen, Rónán. Wilson, Diarmuid. Norris, David.

Níl

Bacik, Ivana. Conway, Martin. Bradford, Paul. D’Arcy, Jim. Brennan, Terry. Gilroy, John. Burke, Colm. Harte, Jimmy. Clune, Deirdre. Hayden, Aideen. Coghlan, Eamonn. Heffernan, James. Coghlan, Paul. Henry, Imelda. Comiskey, Michael. Higgins, Lorraine. 242 International Agreement: 9 May 2012. Referral to Joint Committee

Níl—continued

Keane, Cáit. Noone, Catherine. Kelly, John. O’Donnell, Marie-Louise. O’Keeffe, Susan. Landy, Denis. O’Neill, Pat. Moloney, Marie. Sheahan, Tom. Moran, Mary. Whelan, John. Mulcahy, Tony. Zappone, Katherine. Mullins, Michael.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Ned O’Sullivan and Diarmuid Wilson; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.

Amendment declared lost.

Order of Business agreed to.

Sustainable Energy Act 2002: Motion Senator Ivana Bacik: I move:

“That Seanad Éireann approves the following Order in draft:

Sustainable Energy Act 2002 (Section 8(2)) (Conferral of Additional Functions — Renewal Energy) Order 2012,

a copy of which Order in draft was laid before Seanad Éireann on 30th April, 2012.”

Question put and agreed to.

International Agreement: Referral to Joint Committee Senator Ivana Bacik: I move:

That the proposal that Seanad Éireann approves the exercise by the State of the option or discretion under Protocol No. 21 on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, to accept the following measure:

the Council Decision on the conclusion of the Agreement between the United States of America and the European Union on the use and transfer of Passenger Name Records to the United States Department of Homeland Security,

a copy of which was laid before Seanad Éireann on 6th December, 2011, be referred to the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, in accordance with Standing Order 70A(3), which, not later than 24th May, 2012, shall send a message to the Seanad in the manner prescribed in Standing Order 73, and Standing Order 76(2) shall accordingly apply”.

Question put and agreed to.

Senator Ivana Bacik: A Chathaoirligh, as item No. 3 is scheduled to commence at 2.30 p.m., I propose the suspension of the House until that time.

An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 2 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m. 243 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

Review of White Paper on Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Joe Costello): It is a pleasure to be in the Seanad again to address this august assembly of Senators in the Upper House. I am grateful for the opportunity to address the Seanad and to seek its views on the review of the White Paper on Irish Aid. Members of the Seanad play an important role in supporting our efforts to reduce global poverty. Many Members have served on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade over the years and have visited the developing world themselves to see at first hand how Ireland is working in partnership with communities, civil society and partner governments to reduce poverty and inequality. I appreciate this support and engagement. I look forward to discussing the inputs of Senators to the review and engaging with them in the period ahead as we shape our aid programme and build on its successes. I am proud to lead Ireland’s overseas development programme. It has earned an enviable international reputation and is rightly recognised as one of the best in the world. The primary objective of the development aid programme is the fight against extreme poverty and hunger. It is concentrated in some of the poorest countries of sub-Saharan Africa, has a rigorous focus on achieving results and provides strong international leadership in making aid more effective. Ireland’s aid programme enjoys strong cross-party support and consistently attracts high levels of public support. Last week, an Ipsos MRBI poll commissioned by Dóchas found that 88% of Irish people are proud of Ireland’s overseas aid programme. That is very gratifying, especially at this time of economic difficulty. In my remarks today, I would like to first outline the process we have taken for the review on the White Paper on Irish Aid. Second, I would then like to raise with the Seanad some of the issues which are emerging though this process — issues which we will be taking on board as the review moves into its final stages. This will, I hope, set the scene for our discussions. The current White Paper was developed in 2006. The paper set our clearly why we give aid and what we are trying to achieve by doing so. At its heart was a commitment to reduce poverty and increase opportunity. We made a commitment to help children survive their first years and to go to school. We also committed to support people to have enough food to eat. The White Paper was far-reaching and comprehensive. It has served the programme well by providing a solid policy basis for the decisions we have made. However, over the past six years, the world has changed. The context for international development has changed, and as Members of this House are all too aware, the context here at home has also changed. It is against that backdrop of transition that a review of the aid programme was included as one of the commitments in the programme for Government. We thought it was necessary and prudent to step back and assess the progress we have made and the challenges we have faced. We must assess the changing context at home and abroad and reassess how key issues, such as hunger, climate change, governance and human rights and gender equality are impacting on poverty. We recognised that it was time to set out the future priorities of our aid programme. From the start we have consulted widely and in an open and transparent manner. Our objective is to hear the views, suggestions and recommendations from those who own the programme — the people of Ireland. We published a consultation paper to inform the discussions and to provide guidance on how people could get involved. In order to provide independent oversight, the Irish Aid expert advisory group was requested to ensure that a meaningful consultation is undertaken and that the eventual review report is representative of that. I pay tribute to Ms Nora Owen, the expert advisory group chairperson, and her colleagues on the group for the important role they have played to date. The public consultations have included more than 1,000 people. Public meetings took place in Limerick, Cork, Dublin and 244 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

Sligo. The Human Rights Forum in February was dedicated to the review of the White Paper. We have conducted focus group discussions with key stakeholders such as NGOs, the private sector and, importantly, diaspora communities living in Ireland. We have undertaken consultations with other Departments, including through the interdepartmental committee on development which I chair. We have also encouraged individuals and organisations to make written submissions for the review. We have received more than 150 written submissions. We also have had active engagement through our website, and by using social media to reach out to as wide an audience as possible. We asked our embassies to hold local consultations in Africa to ensure that we hear clearly the voices of our civil society and government partners. The fruits of these discussions formed the basis of a regional consultation in Malawi in which I was pleased to participate. Consultation with members of the Oireachtas has been very important. I have appeared before the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs to hear the views and inputs of members. The public consultation process has now come to an end. I am satisfied that we have had an open process and that those with an interest in international development and Ireland’s role have been given the chance to air their views and to influence the future direction of the programme. In the coming months, I will publish the review report which will set out a clear vision and priorities for how Irish Aid can continue to deliver real and lasting results for people living in poverty. The evidence is emerging that aid is working. Development results in the past ten years have been the best ever recorded. Between 2005 and 2010, the total number of poor people around the world fell by nearly half a billion. Millions of child deaths have been avoided thanks to greater access to vaccines. A total of 40 million more children are going to school today than at the turn of the millennium. Ireland is playing its part in realising these impressive gains. Today, Irish Aid is recognised internationally as a world leader in delivering a high quality aid programme which delivers clear results for the world’s poorest people. The programme works closely with partner governments to empower them to lead their own development. We work closely with other donors to ensure that the impact of all our aid is maximised to deliver agreed results. We work with independent and genuinely representative civil society organisations and the media from the developing world, so that they can fulfil their promise to defend the rights of the vulnerable in an unequal world. We are supporting parliaments fulfilling their critical oversight role. We have increased our engagement with the Irish public, by establishing the Irish Aid volunteering and information centre and by promoting development education in schools and in the community. The eradication of global hunger is a key component of Ireland’s foreign policy and a cornerstone of our development programme. We have taken a leadership role in this area by imple- menting the recommendations of the hunger task force, which sets out how we can tackle hunger most effectively. We have increased our focus on preventing and responding to humanitarian emergencies. We have established the rapid response register and financial systems to ensure our funding is provided within hours of a humanitarian emergency occurring. In recent visits to Africa, I have seen for myself the impact of our aid programme. The number of households in Malawi with insufficient food has reduced from one in four in 2006 to one in ten today. In Ethiopia, agricultural production of grain more than doubled between 2004 and 2009. However, there are some areas in the White Paper where progress was less than expected. Ireland did not establish a tenth programme country, nor did we establish an Irish development bank. The White Paper was developed at a time of rapid economic growth in Ireland. The reduction in public expenditure, due to the difficult economic situation, has resulted in a decline of over 30% in Ireland’s aid budget between 2008 and 2011. 245 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

[Deputy Joe Costello.]

It is important that by the end of the review process, we have a report which will guide us to prioritise further, and to focus on areas where we are confident that we will have the greatest impact on poverty. Our programme needs to provide full value for money for every cent that we spend. It needs to be fully transparent and accountable to the Irish public and to our partners. This has come out strongly in the consultations undertaken to date. It is also imperative that we adapt effectively to the changing context globally and in our partner countries. To do so, we need to understand the changing nature of poverty, with emerging challenges such as rising food and energy prices, climate change and the global economic crisis. Africa is changing and developing faster now than ever before. In the first years of the new millennium and despite the financial crisis, annual economic growth in Africa ran at almost 5%. With this growth and development come opportunities for trade and a stronger role for emerging economies in world affairs. As countries drive their own development resources from increased trade and more efficient and fairer taxation, private sector investment, remittances and investments from emerging economies can all have a significant impact on driving sustainable inclusive growth, and reducing dependency on aid. It is important that overseas aid from Ireland complements but does not replace a country’s own resources and energy. The Africa strategy of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade recognises this new context and advances a new approach to Africa, upon which the White Paper review will build. This acknowledges the importance of complementing aid with efforts to strengthen domestic, regional and international relationships. This new reality in Africa is seldom portrayed in the media, or by NGOs that aim to engage and inform the public on global development issues. The portrayal of people in developing countries as passive victims of poverty and disease does not chime with the reality of their lives and the complexity of the societies in which they live. While these messages may garner short-term financial support, we must unpack this some- what patronising and simplistic view of poverty. We must have a more honest dialogue with the public on the political and policy changes necessary for eliminating global poverty and for tackling complex problems such as hunger and inequality. New tools and strategies must be developed and used to improve how we communicate global development issues. We must challenge those organisations whose messaging distorts, rather than accurately reflects, the often complex realities faced by poor people living in developing countries. The review comes at a very important time in international development. Late last year we had the high level forum on aid effectiveness in Busan, South Korea, which set out a new agenda to improve the effectiveness of all partners in development. In June 2012 the UN Conference on Sustainable Development, or Rio+20, will be held. In September 2013, the millennium development goals will be reviewed in preparation for the development of a new set of global development goals to come into effect in 2016. The review of the White Paper, as well as the Irish Presidency of the EU in the first half of 2013, will give us an opportunity to draw from these international processes. It will allow us bring to bear our strong thematic focus on hunger and nutrition, and on the growing impact of climate change on the poorest countries and communities. A number of other themes have emerged strongly in the review to date, including the need for strong policy coherence for development, the need to maintain the focus on results and accountability and to use all of the tools available to the Government to bring about sustainable development. One practical example of this is the recent launch of the Africa agrifood development fund, which is a joint effort between my Department and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. This fund will support the development of new partnerships between the agrifood sectors in Ireland and in Tanzania and Kenya, in an initial pilot phase. 246 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

Other emerging issues include the need for a greater focus on post conflict situations and fragile states — countries which are home to around 1.2 billion people and are largely off track to meet the millennium development goals — as well as the problem of translating strong economic growth into equitable poverty reduction. The potential to make greater use of Irish institutional experience, as well as establishing a clear framework for volunteer exchange has also been emphasised. We are particularly anxious to engage with the cohort of public servants who took early retirement in February 2012 and who have significant professional and mana- gerial experience. We also need to consider who we are working with and how. By providing substantial support to our partner countries, NGOs and civil society organisations, as well as to multilateral organisations such as the United Nations and the EU, we feel we are able to react to different contexts in varied and appropriate ways. This is an exciting time for the Irish Aid programme. The programme has strong public and political support. We are recognised as world leaders in development, and we want to prioritise and build upon what we have achieved to date in order to have an even greater impact. I am interested in hearing Members’ thoughts on the issues which the review is raising. In particular, I would like to hear opinions on how we can maintain strong public engagement with global justice issues, given the extremely difficult times in which we live. To conclude, Acting Chairman, I would like to thank you again for the opportunity to address the Seanad. I look forward to our discussion today and to feedback on the issues that I have outlined.

Acting Chairman (Senator Deirdre Clune): Thank you. I call on Senator Mary White. You have eight minutes.

Senator Mary M. White: I thank the Minister of State for that excellent presentation. I again congratulate him on his most well deserved appointment. The White Paper on Irish Aid, produced in 2006, was a seminal moment for Irish Aid development policy. We welcome the review of the White Paper as an opportunity to reaffirm Ireland’s commitment to the aid programme and the core principles of that programme. Fianna Fáil is very proud of the success of the Irish Aid programme to date, and we want to see the programme protected in the years ahead. The Government must remain firm in meeting the UN target for official development assistance of 0.7% of GNP, which was set by Fianna Fáil. While we recognise that the Irish Aid programme is now operating in a very different economic environment to that which existed when it was produced in 2006, we believe that the same priorities can still be met and must remain the same. Of course we must look at achieving the greatest value possible for taxpayers, and we must ensure that there is rigorous scrutiny of all funds allocated from the aid budget, whether that be to Irish NGOs or to multilateral agencies. The Irish programme is achieving real and tangible results in the nine programme countries in which it operates, namely, Malawi, Ethiopia, Uganda, Tanzania, Zambia, Mozambique, Lesotho, Vietnam and Timor-Leste. Two years ago Louth County Council asked me to travel to Malawi to officially open projects that had been funded by people who work for it. I spent over a week there and I paid for the trip out of my Seanad salary. While in Malawi, I made a substantial financial contribution and this was also funded out of my Seanad salary. The money raised by Louth County Council goes directly to projects in Malawi. There are two projects to which I wish to draw attention, namely, the building of a hostel at Kaseye girls secondary school, for which €20,000 was raised, and the building of a hostel for the teachers at that school, for which €15,000 was raised. I had an awesome experience in Malawi. The young girls who attend the school in Kaseye, which is located in northern Malawi, arrive at the beginning of term in the back of a large 247 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

[Senator Mary M. White.] truck. The local terrain is extremely hilly and is difficult to navigate. This and the fact that there are few roads in Malawi makes travel very tedious and slow. However, I did come across a road being built and I discovered that a team of Chinese workers were involved in the project. Children from all over Malawi attend the school to which I refer. The meals they are served are frugal. One of the main meals of the day consists of a small amount of fish served on a bed of rice. I discovered that the young girls at the school are extremely eager to learn and gain knowledge and that this is because they want to be able to extricate themselves from the poverty in which they live. There is no electric light at the school so after dinner each evening they study by candlelight. They go to bed at 10 p.m. and rise at 2 a.m. in order to study — again by candlelight — until 7 a.m. This reflects their desire to obtain an education. There is limited access to third level education in Malawi and it is extremely difficult to obtain a place at university in order to study to become a doctor or whatever. We are very spoiled in this country. All of us — myself included — tend not to appreciate all that we have available to us. Imagine being obliged to rise at 2 a.m. and studying until 7 a.m. in order to obtain a place at university. Councillor Peter Savage initiated Louth County Council’s project in Malawi. When opening the new hostel for the girls — in which 20 of them sleep on mattresses because there are no beds — as I cut the ribbon I named it for Councillor Savage. When it came to opening the hostel for the principal and the other teachers at the school, I named it “Louth House” in honour of what the people who work for Louth County Council have achieved in Malawi. The council’s other projects in Malawi have involved the construction of numerous classrooms and the provision of benches for the children to sit at. I was extremely moved by one particular project in a really poverty-stricken area in which people live a primitive existence in huts whereby the people of Louth donated €4,000 for the drilling of a water bore. As a result of this project, the people to whom I refer had access to fresh water. During my visit there, I walked down the trail to the place from which the locals used to draw dirty water for use. I accept that we are here to discuss what is happening with Irish taxpayers’ money in the context of our overall aid programme. However, I needed to take the opportunity to highlight the great work being done by the people who work for and on Louth County Council. The Minister of State referred to the Department’s conflict resolution unit. There is no doubt that we have a tremendous part to play in respect of conflict resolution, particularly when one considers the various troubles we have experienced throughout our history. The White Paper contains a commitment in respect of developing a distinctive role for Ireland in the areas of conflict prevention and resolution. In that context, I am of the view that the role of the Depart- ment’s conflict resolution unit can be developed further. One aspect of this matter in respect of which improvements could be made relates to the identification of priorities within the commitments outlined in the 2006 White Paper. At present, approximately one third of our aid budget goes to EU institutions, and to international institutions like the UN and associated programmes, such as the World Food Programme. As a result of my experience in African countries — particularly Malawi — I am of the view that there must be transparency with regard to where the money goes. During my visit to Malawi, one of the Nordic countries had informed the Government there that it wanted to know where the money it was donating was going. I was told about one possible destination for the money to which I refer but I will not provide information in that regard in the House because it would not be right to do so. There must be accountability in respect of this matter. We should be in a position to know that the money we are donating is going directly to those who require it and that it is not being hived off by certain individuals, either for themselves or to be spent on grandiose projects which do not involve feeding those who are hungry, providing them with 248 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers electricity or fresh water or seeing to it that they receive an education. The primary mantra at the educational institution I visited in Malawi is to ensure that women are educated in order that they can escape from poverty. I take this opportunity to wish the Minister of State and his wife, Ms Emer Costello, MEP, continued success. The Minister of State is aware that I am a great admirer of them both.

Senator Michael Mullins: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Costello, and wish him well in his important role. Our purpose today is to obtain statements and inputs from Seanad Members in respect of the review of the White Paper on Irish Aid. I welcome the fact that the White Paper places the fight against world poverty at the heart of Ireland’s foreign policy. The Government will demonstrate its commitment to the poorest people of the world by allocating, through Irish Aid, €639 million for the purposes of poverty reduction in the current year. The programme for Government contains a commitment to review the White Paper. It is timely and appropriate that this is being done now, particularly in light of changing national and international circumstances. As Senators are aware, the Irish Aid programme budget of €639 million is by far the largest component of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade overall budget. In order to ensure that scarce resources are targeted effectively, it is vital that a number of matters should be addressed. These relate to the amount of progress that has been made since 2006, how we propose to manage the aid budget, identifying the key issues which must be dealt with and examining how we can improve the effectiveness of Irish Aid. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, of which I am a member, has responsibility for oversight of the policies, administration and expenditure of the Department. The Irish Aid budget forms a significant part of the Department’s overall budget. As part of the oversight process, discussions were held with the Tánaiste and Minister of State for Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Minister of State, Deputy Costello, the UN assistant director general and the EU Commissioner, Ms Kristalina Georgieva, as well as hearings on specific issues such as the food crisis in the Horn of Africa and development challenges in Haiti. The committee also held numerous meetings with departmental officials, NGOs and ambassadors in respect of aid- related topics. A delegation from the committee undertook a field trip to Ethiopia in November 2011 in order to assess the effectiveness on the ground of projects and programmes supported through Irish Aid and its partner organisations. Some of my colleagues who were on that visit will elaborate on their findings. Significant progress has been made in meeting the commitments in the White Paper on Irish Aid. We should examine some of these as we assess the effectiveness of the Irish Aid budget. The White Paper states Africa will remain the principle focus for Irish Aid. Between 70% and 80% of the aid programme funding has been directed towards sub-Saharan Africa, one of the highest proportions among OECD donors. A commitment was made to increase the number of partner countries and Malawi was designated Irish Aid’s ninth prog- 3o’clock ramme country in 2007. However, as the Minister of State said, there is disappointment that we did not add a tenth partnership and that the development bank was not established. A commitment was given to focus on working in fragile states, with programmes developed in Sierra Leone, Liberia and the occupied Palestinian territory. Timor- Leste will continue to be a programme country, despite the fact the Irish Embassy there has been closed for financial reasons. There were commitments in the White Paper to build regional programmes in South-East Asia, southern and west Africa, all of which have been delivered on. The promotion of human rights, directly and indirectly, is central to Ireland’s foreign policy. Irish Aid’s expenditure on governance and civil society programmes amounts to 15% of its total budget. In her 2011 report the UN independent expert on human rights and extreme 249 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

[Senator Michael Mullins.] poverty welcomed the strong focus of Irish Aid programmes on social infrastructure and social protection initiatives. Other issues in which we have seen significant progress include placing a greater focus on quality standards through transparency and accountability in its funding mechanism for civil society partners. There has been closer co-operation with UN funds and programmes as we have members and observers on the executive boards of UN programmes. There has been a strong development perspective as a result of Irish Aid, the Department of Finance and our embassies working closely together. The development of the rapid response initiative to respond to sudden emergencies which has been in place for four years, was instrumental in responding to emergencies in Haiti, Pakistan, Liberia, Libya and, recently, the Horn of Africa. The gender equality programme has now been mainstreamed across all Irish Aid programmes. In addition, expenditure on specific gender initiatives increased from €3.3 million in 2005 to €5.1 million in 2010 in addressing such issues as gender-based violence. Robust oversight systems are in place to protect and account for the spending of Exchequer funds, with rigorous accounting and audit controls involving independent auditors. The Committee of Public Accounts also has a key oversight role. Irish Aid has honoured its commitment to combat HIV-AIDS and other diseases by spending over €100 million per annum in developing countries, with more than 35% of the total aid budget spent on health education on HIV and AIDS. Investment in water and sanitation measures has been increased significantly since 2006. Irish Aid plays an important role in conflict resolution through the UN’s Peacebuilding Commission. The Defence Forces have a peacekeeping role in Lebanon following their two year deployment in Chad. They have also trained Ugandan peacekeepers for deployment in Somalia. The world is changing and some progress is being made in combating poverty. Aid provision is playing a key part in that progress and must be continued. Global poverty is reducing and the millennium development goal of halving the level by 2015 will, I hope, be achieved. Up to 40 million more children go to school now than in 2000 and health programmes mean 12,000 fewer children die every day. Since 1990, 1.6 billion people have gained access to clean water and the numbers of malaria cases are down by over 50% in 11 African countries. As we review the White Paper, we need to consider some key issues. Up to 1 billion people, one seventh of the world’s population, are hungry, while more than 1.5 billion live in countries in which there is serious conflict. There is the negative impact of climate change on poorer people. We must look at governance, accountability, human rights and gender equality issues across the developing world, as well as the involvement of the private sector in advancing innovation, job and wealth creation, thus contributing to poverty reduction. Looking to the future in these times of economic difficulty, we have a responsibility to ensure maximum benefit for the world’s poorest from Exchequer expenditure. We need to place the financing of aid on a more predictable footing. We need to work better with key partners, the nine programme countries, civil society and multilateral organisations. We must ensure Government policies support positive development outcomes and have accountability for development results, with greater public engagement. I welcome the Minister of State’s efforts to engage with the public. Ireland should be proud of its reputation as an international aid donor. In a recent opinion poll 85% rated overseas aid as important and very important. In addition to Exchequer funding of €369 million, Irish people contribute significant amounts annually to organisations such as Concern, Trócaire, GOAL, Oxfam and many others. In 2011 Concern alone received almost €37 million in donations for its many projects across the world. It is appropriate to salute the many and wonderful volunteers and missionaries, religious and lay, who do so much every day to improve the lives of the poorest people in the world, often putting their own lives at risk at the same time. We all know such people who deserve our 250 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers support. The review of the White Paper on Irish Aid will ensure a significant and successful programme will become even more effective in the years ahead in tackling the scourge of hunger and disadvantage in developing countries. I compliment the Minister of State on the work he has done so far. As I said recently in the Seanad, many public servants who took early retirement should be encouraged to share their valuable work experience with others. I hope they could use that experience to help the poorest people in the world.

Senator Katherine Zappone: The Minister of State initiated this review which was part of the programme for Government because of the need to assess the changing context at home and abroad but also to reassess key issues such as hunger, climate change, governance, human rights and gender equality which are impacting on poverty. Over one month ago I had the privilege of attending the Inter-Parliamentary Union assembly meeting in Kampala in Uganda where I saw the excellent work being done by the Irish Embassy, under the leadership of the ambassador, Ms Anne Webster, and the various Irish Aid projects. We were informed this was making an enormous difference in reducing the level of poverty by one half. Recently they have refocused their strategy to concentrate on the northern section of Uganda which has not seen the same level of poverty reduction. The ambassador has indicated to me that there are still significant challenges in Uganda, with an overall inflation rate of 27%, 50% food inflation and high school fees. Even some of her indigenous employees at the embassy are struggling to find the resources to meet the various fees to have their children educated. In addition to the briefing indicating that the work has had an impact in reducing poverty, we were also provided with a very positive and optimistic assessment in that Uganda is now at a point — and certainly with regard to Ireland’s connection to the country — that it may be moving towards important negotiations on trade and not just aid. There has been a recent discovery of oil, which is a major issue. I was struck by the briefing from one of the ambassador’s senior civil servants, especially the contention that Uganda is just about to take off, in the context of negotiating with Ireland on trade issues. That is a positive context for our work in the country. I also understand from my trip and information received since my return that there are a number of legislative proposals coming before the Ugandan Parliament which seek to curtail citizens’ human rights, with the chief among these the anti-homosexuality Bill. As the Minister of State is probably aware, there is a growing international moral outrage and concern about the possibility that the Bill, with its punishments of death or life imprisonment for gay relationships, will pass through the Ugandan Parliament. This is its second run as it was stopped before because of international response. I am pleased to report that some of the other members of the Oireachtas delegation who came with me, particularly Deputies John Lyons and Nicky McFadden, were part of one of the committees of the inter-parliamentary union meeting and wrote a letter to Speaker Kadaga of the Ugandan Parliament, identifying a sense of outrage at what was going on. They asked if she could have any influence in stopping the movement of the Bill through the Ugandan Parlia- ment. We were told by many Ugandans that if the legislation begins its passage, it is more than likely to pass. I have a copy of a letter from Speaker Kadaga in response to the letter written by members of that committee, and she indicates the Bill will be debated in the Ugandan Parliament and it will be up to the members to either pass or reject it. In light of these developments, can we presume Uganda’s aid and trade relations with Ireland would be threatened if this Bill is not revoked? Will the Government be making representations to the Ugandan authorities with regard to that odious legislation? These are key and live questions that will demonstrate the ways in which the White Paper could provide us with some principles to get the balance right in future between aid, trade and human rights. 251 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

Senator Lorraine Higgins: I thank the Minister of State for his detailed and informative speech today and welcome him to the House. It seems he has been a familiar figure in this Chamber over recent weeks and I look forward to welcoming him back again during this Government’s term. More seriously, I am glad to participate in and lead the debate for the Labour group in the Seanad on the review of the White Paper on Irish Aid. I am a fervent supporter of our aid agenda and recognise the important role it plays on humanitarian grounds, as well as the significant part it plays in keeping Ireland’s international reputation up with the most benevolent countries. This cannot be underestimated when it comes to building political capital with other countries worldwide and being at the forefront of exploring economic possibilities and opportunities with aid recipient countries. Ireland’s aid programme is different from most others and we have a great approach in that at the heart of our donations is the philosophy that we should teach people how to fish rather than give them fish. This practice has been recognised internationally and we can be justifiably proud that our aid programmes are ranked first on the OECD aid effectiveness rating scale. An essential component in achieving this rank is the direction the 2006 White Paper on Irish Aid has given us. Following the publication of this paper, Ireland’s aid programme has become more focused and effective, such that we have become a leader in the fight against global hunger and developed new skills and methods of preventing and responding to humanitarian emergencies. However, we must be mindful that this paper was developed in different times. In 2006, the Exchequer’s till was ringing, with increased revenue every day, but we now find ourselves in a very different economic space. In recent years we have experienced instability in every sense but we are now emerging from the abyss, and in this regard I acknowledge and recognise how difficult it has been for the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, to make a case for retaining the overseas development aid budget at more than €600 million in the 2012 budget. This is a specific and unique challenge facing the Department, and I commend the Minister and the Minister of State on working in the area in such difficult circumstances. I know there is a determination to meet Ireland’s commitment to the UN target for official development assistance of 0.7% of GNP, although there can be no doubt we must systematically review all that is contained in the White Paper to make necessary changes in light of our current budgetary and human resource deficits. I recognise it is very difficult to make a case to the Irish taxpayer for overseas aid when we have many social and economic problems at home stemming from the demise of the Celtic tiger. The Irish people should be incredibly proud of our achievements and the difference we are making to the lives of thousands of the world’s poorest people. On a recent visit as part of the Oireachtas delegation to Ethiopia, I witnessed at first hand the remarkable work being done. Some of the non-governmental organisations I visited worked at the forefront of gender issues, with others educating people to escape the poverty trap through entrepreneurial studies and links with Irish and international universities such as University College Cork. I even spotted an Irish potato on a farm we visited in the Tigray region. All of the agencies are carrying out tremendous work and Ireland can justifiably be very proud for making such an indelible mark on Ethiopian society. Every day our aid is helping to eradicate poverty, assist in building the necessary infrastructure and widen the gap between life and death. I am glad to see our commitment remaining as steadfast as ever in 2012. Under the review of the White Paper on Irish Aid there are a number of areas where we must focus our efforts if we are to ensure maximum aid effectiveness. In particular, we must ensure more money — or a higher percentage of the aid budget — is diverted to access to adequate water and sanitation facilities. Although Ireland has been to the forefront of ensuring this is a priority, it remains the biggest challenge to aid countries. Furthermore, we must divert more aid funding to bestowing our expertise on governments of aid countries in order that the 252 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers integrity of our aid programmes can be upheld. We must train, help, advise and assist these countries with capital flight problems and educate people on the systems we have in place in order that there can be no difficulty with the outflow of resources through capital flight, tax evasion and tax avoidance. We must help such nations to be proactive in this regard and, ultimately, help them in helping themselves. We must recognise that aid is only one part of the solution. In the past year, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade published the Africa strategy, which provides us with new political, development and business possibilities with Africa. Consequently, we must be serious about assisting trade and development in aid countries. In particular, our diplomatic staff, Enterprise Ireland and the Industrial Development Agency have a role to play. We should task them with seeking trade development opportunities in aid programme countries as not only would the benefits be enormous for the aid countries because they could find new markets for goods and produce but we could also benefit in circumstances where the countries could have markets for our produce and goods. Trade development may not be possible immediately in some countries but we should develop and forge links now. For example, Ethiopia’s economy is growing at 8% per annum, and although it is admittedly starting from a very low base, there will be possibilities that will be mutually beneficial in forthcoming years. I suggest a way of fostering such links by engaging in a town twinning procedure between the major urban centres in Ireland and these countries. In the BRIC countries of Brazil, Russia, India and China, the political, economic, social and trading relationships are evolving. One of the most important features of our overseas development aid is the work done by non-governmental organisations, NGOs. These work hard at fund-raising for very worthwhile causes in many Third World countries, and in many cases the Irish taxpayer contributes to such activities. There is a requirement for greater focus on the achievement of maximum value for money with every cent spent, with an emphasis on accountability and measurable results.

In particular we must insist on these organisations which are funded by the taxpayer providing us with published annual accounts. It is imperative we know exactly what percentage of funding trickles down to the coalface and targets those who need it most, and the sums of money that get caught up in the administrative costs. Essentially I am calling on the Depart- ment to embark on and undertake a due diligence procedure on the distribution of funding through these organisations. We must remember we are custodians of public money and have a duty to people to ensure we get value for money in the disbursements to charities. We must move for legislative change in the Charities Act 2009 to give effect to this to ensure we uphold the highest possible standards when it comes to aid effectiveness and distribution.

We must be mindful that this small nation is playing a very significant part in helping achieve the millennium development goal of halving world poverty by 2015. The international aid community has made significant progress in this regard. I know my colleague, Senator Michael Mullins, has alluded to the fact more than 40 million additional children are going to school today than in the year 2000. Health programmes and vaccinations mean that 12,000 fewer people are dying every day. Since 1990, 1.6 billion people have gained access to clean drinking water. Cases of malaria are also down by more than 50% in 11 African countries. It is becoming clear poverty is more persistent and concentrated in particular regions and localities. Sub Saharan Africa continues to bear the greatest poverty burden and it is estimated that by 2030, half of the world’s poor will be found there. This statistic is further exacerbated by the expected population increases in some of these countries. For example, it is expected that Ethiopia’s population alone will double by 2030. This is an ongoing and developing issue which needs a targeted and measured solution. Admittedly, Ireland faces a significant challenge when it comes 253 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers to retaining the standards the international community has come to expect from us in development aid.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute on this issue and I hope the Minister will take on board, some if not all of my submission. It is imperative the international community works together in solidarity to achieve the same goal of eradicating global poverty and resolving the issue of poor governance in some of these countries. It is only through this way that we can move forward.

Senator Feargal Quinn: The Minister of State, Deputy Joe Costello, is getting fond of Members and comes quite regularly to the Seanad. I am delighted he is wearing his current hat because his words give us confidence that we can achieve far more than we might otherwise have done. A billion people fall asleep hungry every night. That is a major challenge. As Senator Lorraine Higgins has said, while we may argue we are not well off, there is no compari- son between what we call poverty and the level of poverty so many in the world experience. I was interested to hear the Minister of State say that between 2005 and 2010, the total number of poor people around the world fell by nearly 500 million and 40 million more children are going to school today than in 2000. To those who argue we are not as well off as we were and do not have the money to spend as we used to, we have a very strong case to make that this is much more important than any poverty experienced in Ireland. Ireland has becomes known internationally as a beacon state when it comes to development aid. As a small country donating very large per capita amounts of development aid, we have encouraged or even embarrassed many other countries into donating aid. I very much support our continuation of our historic role, which has demonstrated we are able to make a difference. Figures released this month by the OECD showed Greece slashed its foreign aid by 39% in 2011, while Spain made a 32% cut last year. Italy and Austria have been singled out by NGOs who say they only give a tiny portion of their incomes in aid. Our Presidency of the European Union starts next January, and there is a debate this week on that issue. Can we use our role, in hosting the Presidency, to leverage the other EU member states to commit to more aid? Are we focusing development aid in the correct area? It is of great concern on the broader level that according to an European Union parliamentary report, only 46% of the European Union aid meant for developing countries actually goes to low income states, while Turkey, which is relatively rich, is in the top five of recipients of European Commission aid. Surely that is not correct. Can we change that situation during our term of the EU Presidency? How do we properly reconcile this? Some development NGOs say that so-called good aid, such as long- term budgetary support, is the first to go, whereas bad stuff such as trade sweeteners remain. Some countries employ creative definitions of aid, for example, including the cost of repatriat- ing illegal immigrants. Some NGOs fear that European Union aid could drop by as much as one fifth. Will we be using the Presidency to highlight this issue? What is the Minister of State’s opinion on providing budget support to developing countries instead of project support? With budget support, donors’ funds flow directly into the budget chapters of recipients states and are used for whatever is needed and agreed on by governments and donors. Thus salaries of teachers in Rwanda may be covered by money provided by donors. Supporters of this method say that when budget support is used, transaction costs are low and delivery is highly efficient. I believe we can do something in these areas. We heard a lovely quotation today which was used originally by Oxfam: “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” There is much more to this than just giving aid. We must focus on helping them in the long term rather than in the short term. The Arab spring has highlighted a weakness at the heart of EU foreign policy in that region. How does the European Union combine the promotion of democracy, human rights and 254 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers engagement in development aid, when certain states in the region have engaged in widespread human rights violations resulting in high levels of poverty and effective dictatorships? Should Ireland push more strongly for disengagement from such countries when violations such as that take place? The UK Government has said it would channel development aid in new directions if recipient governments failed to meet four requirements: reducing poverty, adhering to human rights, demonstrating good financial management and showing accountability to their citizens. What about countries that violate lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex, LGBTI, rights? Last year for example, Germany cut aid to Malawi after the country passed law embar- rassing homosexuality. Should Ireland be pushing for such a step? In March 2011, a joint communication from the EU institutions, entitled Partnership for Democracy and Shared Prosperity, declared that the European Union should be ready to offer greater support to those countries ready to work on such a common agenda but also should reconsider support when countries depart from this track. How will this work in practice? Can we encourage more engagement by business in aid? It is very interesting to consider how the private sector has turned to innovative ways to reach untapped markets. In Kenya and Nigeria, where power outages can last days, Samsung has introduced solar powered mobile phones. Cameroon is on course to overtake Ireland as one of the largest consumers of Guin- ness. What about diverting aid to help start-up companies in developing countries? In that way aid can become much more sustainable. There seems to be a shift, and over the past decade, multilateral and bilateral development banks have increased their financing of the private sector from €7.5 billion to over €30 billion annually. A recent study by the International Finance Corporation and 30 similar institutions concluded that firms in developing countries need financing to expand their operations as well as needing better infrastructure, improved business regulations and skilled employees. Does it make sense for donor governments to support the public and private sectors in developing countries? Some would say “Yes” since developing institutions are mostly self-funded through using repayments from their investments to support new projects. A great deal has been said about the work done by Irish NGOs. I know about their work in Ethiopia and it has been interesting to hear about them today. My next comment is about giving a man a fish rather than teaching him to fish. The amount of work that has been done by a number of Irish NGOs in west Africa and Ethiopia is mind boggling. In an area in Ethiopia that is the size of County Louth Irish teams have been operating and they have moved to another area of the same size. They have been able to help a large number of people and taught them how to develop a water system and suitable crops. It is a good example of what can be done. It is private enterprise to a certain extent but it teaches the people how to run their businesses and lives and solve their problems.

Senator Kathryn Reilly: Like previous Senators I welcome the Minister of State to the House and I apologise that I may not be here for his response because I must attend a meeting of a committee that he used to chair. Sinn Féin welcomes the strategy and goal outlined in the White Paper. As has been mentioned previously, Ireland has an honourable tradition of providing aid and development. This week my colleague, Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, will launch our response with a paper entitled “Honouring our Legacy.” The title sums up what we need to do to continue our honourable tradition of supporting development in the global south. My party respects and supports the Government’s courage in not cutting the foreign aid budget but there was a slight decrease from almost 0.6% in 2008 to 0.5% now. We all accept that times are tough but can the Minister of State tell me when we will reach our 0.7% target?

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[Senator Kathryn Reilly.]

Partner countries also have responsibilities to live up to. For example, India must fulfil its commitment to spend 9% of its country’s income on health and education. For overseas aid to be truly effective and sustainable the governments of partner countries must play their part. The difficulties facing NGOs operating in Africa must also be taken on board. Laws restricting the role of civil society should not be allowed hamper aid effectiveness. Irish Aid must reach the grassroots to make an impact and it means supporting business related initiatives such as farmers’ groups, women’s co-operatives, Fairtrade initiatives and local enterprise development. In reality it means community empowerment. The question of economy partnership agreements dogs the foreign aid debate. Sinn Féin is clear that EPAs should be about aiding developing partner countries and not the EU’s strategic or economic interests. I will take this opportunity to commend the excellent policy work of Trócaire in the sector. We support their recommendations for the global south. They consist of an ethical approach to aid with an ethics charter for Irish businesses overseas and full compliance with the OECD anti-bribery convention. Gender equality and programmes against gender-based violence are as necessary as ever and direct funding of women’s organisations should continue. Human rights must be the thread that runs through all of the work carried out by Irish Aid and coincides with the protection of the natural environment. Foreign acquisition of African lands is a dangerous trend because lands are being used to serve the needs of foreign powers and not the needs of the indigenous population. Irish Aid should not encourage the trend. I wish to raise the issue of displaced people in Colombia. Any Fairtrade deal with Colombia must not dodge the issue.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: We will now take questions and participants will have one minute each in which to ask the Minister of State a question. Ten speakers have indicated that they wish to contribute and they will be followed by the Minister of State’s response. If some Members take longer than the one minute allotted then their colleagues will miss out. I will only allow those on my list to speak and I call Senator Heffernan to commence.

Senator James Heffernan: I welcome the Minister of State and wish him continued success in his work. As has been mentioned by a couple of previous speakers, human rights issues in African countries like Malawi, Ethiopia and Uganda have been mentioned. I understand that if they receive 10% of their funding from a donor country they will be deemed to be operating illegally in some countries and the focus on human rights might be as we would like it to be. Can he elaborate on NGOs working in those countries, particularly Irish NGOs such as Trócaire, GOAL and Concern? This morning the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Leo Varadkar, and the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, made an announcement about Shannon Airport. On initial reading it seems to be good news for the mid-west. However, it was proposed that the airport would be a humanitarian aid hub for Ireland and this part of Europe in order to assist in a rapid response to a humanitarian crisis. Can the Minister of State explain the current position?

Senator Jim Walsh: I welcome the Minister of State and, as other speakers have said, there is no-one more appropriate to hold his portfolio. I want to raise a number of issues about conditionality as has been mentioned by a number of Senators. I am a little concerned about some of the comments made by the Minister of State and presentations received at committee level. I am concerned that if people are losing their 256 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers lives due to hunger then we, the EU and the United States, in particular, are in some way inclined to transpose some of our “values” onto them. Can the Minister of State tell me what human rights issues are we raising? Do we oppose some countries because they are trying to impose abortion on some African countries under the guise of population control and as part of their aid provision? We should not do that. We should be hostile to and oppose such a measure. What trade measures are we taking? There have been significant growth rates in many of the African countries but, as Senator Higgins has said, that is coming from a very low base. What are we doing to achieve sustainable levels, particularly our embassies and Enterprise Ireland? Has Enterprise Ireland a section that promotes trade with Africa? What are we doing to assist countries to export goods? My final point is about HIV. It is a huge problem in Africa but the number of HIV sufferers in Uganda seems to have been reversed. Last night I spoke to a Christian Brother at a film and he said that AIDS and HIV is a major problem even among the professional classes in Africa. What are we doing to assist those countries to tackle and overcome the problem?

Senator Terry Brennan: Go raibh maith agat, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, agus fáilte romhat a Aire go dtí an Seanad. I shall spend a couple of seconds discussing a country that I am fairly familiar with and has been mentioned here already. The very poor country of Malawi is known as the warm heart of Africa because its people are very poor but happy and unfortunately they have few natural resources. The country has been ravaged by the AIDS virus and its middle age population has disappeared leaving many orphans. Its people are anxious to learn and to develop their country. Nigeria is so large that one would not notice the benefit from €10 million but imagine what it would do in Malawi. The same sum would educate all of the children in the northern part of Malawi. I hope its menfolk will forgive me, but if one educates the girls and ladies the country would prosper. My colleague, Senator Mary White, and other Senators and councillors throughout the country have been very active in supporting a project initiated by a colleague of mine, Councillor Peter Savage. When he was chairman of Louth County Council, he initiated a development fund project for Malawi. Many staff members, county councillors, Senators and other colleagues have contributed to the success of the project in the last seven years. Over €400,000 has been collected and sent straight to Malawi. Schools have been built and extended. A new health centre has also been built. Aid workers have been provided with bicycle ambulances, while farming has been developed in some villages. Some of those who know me will be aware that I have had the distinction of having an animal in Malawi named after me.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator also has the distinction of having exceeded his time limit.

Senator Terry Brennan: The project has provided various pieces of farm machinery, including sowing and grinding machines. Water schemes and solar energy systems have been developed in some villages. All of this work has been done voluntarily by Councillor Savage and other councillors in co-operation with the staff of Louth County Council, particularly its management staff. Perhaps the Minister of State might encourage other local authorities to follow the lead of Louth County Council by helping some of the poorest countries in the world. Since Ireland embraced Malawi, it has become a shining light for all other African countries. The work of my colleague, Councillor Savage, and the management and staff of Louth County Council in collecting these moneys has made a major difference to thousands of very poor people. I suggest the Government invite the recently elected President of Malawi, Joyce Banda, to visit this country. I know she would love to do so. I thank the Senators and councillors who have contributed to the fund during the years. I apologise for speaking at such length. 257 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

Senator Mary Ann O’Brien: I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House. I would like to pick up on what Senator Feargal Quinn said about looking at Irish Aid from a business or value for money perspective. Have the Minister of State and his team considered the possibility of bringing all Irish Aid organisations under a single umbrella? I am aware of the existence of Dóchas. We need to imagine what Irish Aid could do as an umbrella organisation if everybody was involved. When I read through the list of the members of Dóchas, I felt ignorant because I had not heard of many of them. The list includes Action from Ireland, ActionAid Ireland, the Africa Centre, Aidlink, AIDS Partnership for Africa, the Alan Kerins Projects, Amnesty International Ireland, Camara Education, Christian Blind Mission Ireland, the Centre for Global Education, Child Aid Ireland — India, ChildFund Ireland, Children in Crossfire and Christian Aid Ireland. I will not go on, but there are many. The point I am trying to make is that Senator Feargal Quinn’s former business or Tesco would not have been able to make savings by buying things through central offices if they had not expanded beyond small individual shops. If we had a beautiful building that acted as a beacon of light — perhaps like the Independent News & Media facility in west Dublin — Europe would know about it. I join other Senators in speaking with pride about the fact that Ireland is famous for its heart, kindness and gift to these countries. We know we can share education, intelligence and information. That brings me back to the point I made about bodies such as Concern, GOAL, Trócaire and UNICEF being based in a single building and sharing three receptionists. If a delegation was travelling to Ethiopia or Uganda, two people could go instead of ten. We need to reflect on the amount of money spent on advertising during a crisis. I spoke to Deputy Micheál Martin the other day about his appearance on “Tonight with Vincent Browne” following the Asian tsunami. He was confused when an appeal was made to the public because ten numbers appeared on the screen. People did not know whether they should ring Trócaire, GOAL or another organisation. The word “co-opetition” was used when Bord Bia tried to bring various bodies under a single umbrella as part of its efforts to market this country as “Ireland — the Food Island”. Is there a way of getting all of these organisations under a single umbrella in order to achieve value for money? I join Senator Lorraine Higgins in emphasising that we do not have a charities regulator and calling for complete transparency and accountability within all organisations.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe: Perhaps Africa will soon be filled with animals called after the Minister of State, Deputy Joe Costello. That is something to look forward to. I am aware that the review of the White Paper and the Irish Aid programme is dear to his heart and accept that he is putting a huge effort into it. We welcomed him when he came to Sligo. I join him in paying tribute to Nora Owen for her great work in assisting in this regard. I would like to pick up on the Minister of State’s comment that “the eradication of global hunger is a key component of Ireland’s foreign policy and a cornerstone of our development programme.” I am particularly delighted that the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine are co-operating on the African agrifood development fund. I wonder whether the Irish Aid programme will become the Irish food aid programme as we increase our concentration on the eradication of hunger which the Minister of State has described as a cornerstone of our policy. Is that where we are heading, in effect? Would it make more sense for us to use our limited resources in that way, as Senator Lorraine Higgins suggested? The Minister of State has mentioned that times have changed. Senator Mary Ann O’Brien spoke about the need for joined-up thinking in order to achieve value for money, ensure transparency and ease of access. Should we concentrate our efforts on this? I wonder what the Minister of State thinks about making such a change.

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Senator Mark Daly: Our overseas aid budget is shrinking but our commitment to the Euro- pean Union is remaining static. We have committed to meeting 1.17% of the cost of the various EU programmes in this area, some of which were discussed at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade earlier. We will pay billions of euro in that way during the period between 2014 and 2020, to which the next tranche of funding will apply. The decrease in our overseas aid budget is affecting the amount of money we are giving to bilateral programmes in our partner countries. I ask the Minister of State to examine two issues in that context. We are borrowing money from one EU institution — the European Central Bank — only to give it back to other EU institutions. Perhaps the interest we are paying on the money we have borrowed and are giving back to EU programmes could be counted as part of our overseas aid budget. We are making interest repayments to these institutions. My main concern is that as the years go by and our overseas aid budget is cut, unfortunately, we will give a greater proportion of our money to the European Union, the United Nations, the IMF and others and a smaller proportion to our partner countries. I ask the Minister of State to address that issue.

Senator Martin Conway: I welcome the Minister of State. I was delighted when he was elevated to his current position. He was more than entitled to be promoted. I would like to ask a specific question about the €639 million Ireland provides in overseas aid each year. Although that is not enough, it is significant nonetheless. How much of this money is given to projects that support people with disabilities in developing countries? We are making progress in ratification of the UN Convention on the Rights of People with Dis- abilities. When we have ratified it, our responsibility to people with disabilities will not be confined to this country; it will extend to what we are doing with development aid abroad. I would like to see in the White Paper an increased emphasis on supporting projects in developing countries that promote equality and equality of opportunity among people with disabilities. Developing countries, as with others suffering from economic austerity, will be more than challenged in this regard. We can set the agenda by funding projects that benefit the lives of people with disabilities all over the world, especially those in developing countries. This White Paper is timely and welcome and affords us that opportunity. I would like to hear the Minister of State’s thoughts on that.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Joe Costello): I thank the Senators for their contributions. This has been a very wide-ranging and questioning debate and it has come at an appropriate time. We have just completed the review of the White Paper. The deadline for submissions was the end of last month but the odd one is still being submitted. There are approximately 150 formal written submissions and some have used social media. Many organisations and individuals have made submissions. Today’s contribution is very appropriate. Many suggestions have been made and I will try to take as many on board as possible. It is very heartening to hear the support from all quarters for Irish Aid. We have been asked to reach our targets as quickly as possible. The programme for Government sets an aid target of 0.7% of national income by 2015, which is that of the United Nations and European Union. This is a challenge in the present circumstances. There was a decrease of 30% between 2008 and 2011. This year, we have more or less retained the level of 2011. We must face up to the challenges posed by the budgets in 2013 and 2014 and also face up to our economic circumstances. These are matters we will seek to address in the strongest way possible. It is heartening to hear the support across the board in this regard. Senator Daly stated we must account for 1.17% of the European Union’s funding package. It should be remembered we are still net recipients in the European Union, as farmers are well aware. The cheque still comes in the post in many areas and we have been major beneficiaries. 259 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

[Deputy Joe Costello.] Interestingly, we will probably be making all the major decisions on the multi-annual financial framework next year. This will deal with the disbursal of funding, that is, the EU budget of more than €1 trillion to be disbursed from 2014 to 2020. Within that, approximately 9% is suggested as an increase regarding development aid. The concept of development aid is broader in EU terms than in Irish terms, however. It does not refer only to overseas development aid but also to development aid in the context of the EU neighbourhood policy, which includes Turkey, pre-accession countries and other countries in the vicinity of the Union, particularly to the east. Money is made available in this regard to improve facilities and administration, among other things, and is not limited in the Irish sense. Human rights featured very strongly in the contributions. Human rights comprise a basic principle for us. All our work on Irish Aid is underpinned by our awareness of human rights. We take the UN charter as a basic starting point in this respect. Senator Heffernan mentioned the 10% pertaining to Ethiopia. There have been some encroachments in that respect. Non-governmental organisations are now getting squeezed by the legislative provisions being applied in some African countries. The countries’ authorities do not wish to see non-governmental organisations being funded by donor countries. Ethiopia, for example, passed legislation called the Charities and Societies Act 2009. Coincidentally, just before I arrived in the House, I met Fr. Hagos Hayish of the Catholic Church in Ethiopia and representatives of Trócaire. The issue to which I refer was raised because severe limitations are being placed on Trócaire and all the other non-governmental organisations operating in the country, such as GOAL and Concern. If they are funded by an outside organisation in the order of more than 10%, it is illegal for them to operate. The authorities are now squeezing the human rights agencies. Trócaire is a very strong human rights organisation of the Catholic Church. It is being squeezed enormously in Ethiopia because, if more than 10% of its funding comes from external sources, it is told it is operating illegally. This has considerable implications for the operation of non-governmental organisations within a number of countries in Africa. We are working to address this very strongly through the embassies. We are well respected in this regard. When I met the Ethiopian Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Berhane Gebre-Christos, last January, he agreed readily to support Ireland’s candidacy for a seat on the United Nations Human Rights Council. At the same time, however, Ethiopia had just put in place legislation that is detrimental to human rights. There are very difficult circumstances we try to address as strongly as possible. In Ethiopia, Ireland is the leading donor country in regard to human rights and it is trying to sort out the problem. Similar circumstances obtain in Uganda and Malawi with lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex, LGBTI, rights. We are very much engaged in those countries internally and with other countries to resolve the issues. With regard to conflict resolution, it was stated we should be doing more. Of course, we should, but we are very much involved with the Glencree Centre for Peace and Reconciliation, an international centre for conflict resolution. The OSCE, under the chairmanship of the Tánaiste, has focused very much on conflict resolution as one of its major themes this year. Accountability is a considerable issue and we are very careful about it. All the money we spend is taxpayers’ money and we must be accountable. There are very strict auditing and evaluation measures applied by the Department for which both the Tánaiste and I are responsible. We are responsible for ensuring all the money is spent properly. Our embassies must keep an eye on all the money spent on the ground and we are very careful about this. We do not give money to corrupt governments. Where money is given, it is on the basis of the observation of the practice of good governance, on which we insist. We give out money on 260 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers a project-by-project basis. I could refer to some wonderful projects that we fund in their entirety. We give money to departments — for example, an education department — but it is for a particular purpose, such as the provision of teachers and teacher education. This expenditure, while it could feed into a government’s budget, is monitored. While we deal with people locally and with projects and local, regional and national government, all the funding is made available under careful supervision by the local embassy. We have an embassy in all our major programme countries. I assure the Senators that our embassies are extremely effective. A number of Senators, especially Senator Quinn, referred to trade and the changing nature of the countries with which we are engaged. It is important for us to recognise there have been considerable changes in Africa. Senator Higgins stated we expect 50% of the world’s poverty will be in sub-Saharan Africa in 2030. This is a significant statistic. On the other side of the coin, the millennium development goals were established in 2000 for the period up to 2015. The expectation is that by 2015, because a lot of progress has been made, we will have halved the level of world poverty. That represents substantial progress. We are carrying out our own review, which is appropriate, but others are also taking + 4o’clock place. Rio 20 is due to take place in June and 50,000 people will attend this gathering to discuss sustainable aid and development. In September 2013 there will be a worldwide review of the millennium development goals and by the end of 2015 there will be a new dispensation. Between now and then there will be a detailed review of the situation to see where we are going. For that reason, it is important to look at emerging countries and those countries where we have programmes. We have developed a new strategy, the Africa strategy, to look at how we can complement what we are doing with Irish Aid through the promotion of Irish trade by bringing the private sector into the equation and the Irish development agencies into play, including Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland and Glanbia. We are bringing them in to obtain advice, while encouraging the private sector to get involved in business and investment in Africa. On HIV-AIDS, we were one of the major players in the global forum on HIV. We put €9 million into that programme annually. It has effected considerable change in most African countries, with considerable reductions in the incidence of HIV-AIDS in most countries through greater access to better vaccines. We do not want to approach the trade issue in the way suggested by Senator Feargal Quinn, whereby we would replace some of our aid with grants in promoting trade. We will do it in kind; we will retain our aid programme and not make it conditional in any way, but we will also provide assistance and expertise for the private sector through our embassies. There is now a team in each of the embassies in Africa which focuses on trade. Using our reputation gained through our missionaries and Irish Aid opens a lot of doors. Enterprise Ireland also has a base in South Africa from which it will feed into other African countries. Eventually we will have to look for an exit strategy from all countries. We do not intend to go around in circles in providing aid, unless we are moving forward, and the best way to do this is to see how a country can become self-sufficient. That is a major part of the way we are looking at things. A specific question was asked about the Shannon hub, at which we are looking closely. It is included in the programme for Government that we will establish a humanitarian hub in Shannon for the containment and dispersal of humanitarian aid. We have Irish Aid supplies located at hubs throughout the world. Only the United Nations can provide these hubs; the European Union does not have any. Arising from the Lisbon treaty which places a specific legal responsibility on the European Union to deal with humanitarian and development aid, there are two Commissioners dealing with these issues, Commissioner Georgieva who is 261 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

[Deputy Joe Costello.] responsible for aid matters and Commissioner Piebalgs who is responsible for development matters. We are anxious to put the case to the European Union that the renewed focus on the provision of humanitarian aid means it should have its own hub and that Shannon is the ideal location for it. I am establishing a feasibility study and have had tenders submitted which will be approved by the end of the month. There will then be 60 days in which to issue a report. We then hope to make progress. I have spoken to Commissioner Georgieva about the matter and she is sympathetic. We deal with the issue of disabilities in dealing with the provision of aid in poor countries. It is something on which we will work for the review. We have our homework to do in Ireland because we have not yet ratified the UN Convention on Disabilities. Until we do so, we are not in a position to lecture anyone. This should be done before the end of the year; legislation is being brought forward on the topic. The issue should be a focus of the review because people who are impoverished are at a disadvantage, but those with physical and other disabilities are disadvantaged further. Senator Susan O’Keeffe asked about the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We have taken an initiative in conjunction with that Department in which we are focusing on two countries, Tanzania and Kenya, in a pilot scheme. In all areas of Africa agriculture is a key sector. As there has been little development, there is little industrial activity. By and large, societies are mainly rural; therefore, we are bringing to bear in these countries expertise from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to provide for the best quality production, regulation and marketability of products. The first trip took place two weeks ago. The people from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine are starting work on this initiative to ensure products are made to the highest quality and can be marketed globally, with processing taking place in these countries to ensure added value. We are also looking at this initiative in the context of other Departments also. Every Department has something to say and there is now an interdepartmental body in which all Departments come together. I chair its meetings. We had the first meeting recently and are examining how each Department can contribute to what Irish Aid is doing in order that we can adopt a whole country approach rather than a single Department approach. The Department for Finance, for example, can provide expertise on tax and revenue matters, anti-corruption measures and so on. We can go further down the road and adopt a more holistic approach. These are issues that have been thrown up in our discussions, which we will consider carefully. The debate and the questions posed have been fascinating and interesting. If Members have something further to add, I am more than willing to listen to suggestions. I thank them for what has been a positive and enlightened discussion. I look forward to returning to the House to discuss the report and establish whether Members think it is worthwhile, whether we have made good progress and whether we are moving in the right direction.

Senator Denis Landy: I thank the Minister of State for outlining his views on the White Paper. I apologise for not being present earlier, but I had to attend another meeting, although I watched and listened to some of his contribution on a monitor. Will he elaborate on the process to establish the Shannon hub? It was announced earlier that Shannon Airport had achieved independence from the DAA. Will that have a bearing on the hub? With regard to the request made to the European Union, is Ireland in competition to provide such a hub? Is funding available from the Union to establish it? If it is established, it will be a great achievement for Ireland in the context of our punching above our weight in the provision of ODA. 262 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

Senator Ivana Bacik: I thank the Minister for State for attending. I apologise that I had to leave the House for some of the debate, but I also had to attend a meeting of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality. The Minister of State referred to the new Africa agrifood development fund and the practical efforts being made by his Department and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, specifically in Tanzania and Kenya. Has he examples of this co-operation? The review of the millennium development goals is due to be undertaken in September 2013. Will more ambitious goals be set or, in the light of world economic conditions, will it be more of a holding operation, with the new goals to come into effect in 2016?

Deputy Joe Costello: The establishment of the Shannon hub forms part of the programme of Government and, therefore, the Government is committed to pursuing it. I have asked for a feasibility study to be undertaken to progress it. The tenders are in and it will take approximately two months to come up with the report. Those involved will consult widely, including with those in the new set-up at Shannon Airport when the proposed changes are implemented. For a long time the airport’s administrators have sought independence in order that they can develop more freely. I met them during the discussions on the hub and they are anxious that the project be undertaken to enhance the capacity of the area. The airport has the capacity to take aircraft of all sizes and has significant depot facilities and so on. It is too early to say what the response of the European Union will be in the context of funding or otherwise. We will make a formal proposal to it when it is ready. I have spoken to Commissioner Andris Piebalgs who is awaiting our proposal. The initial discussions were cor- dial on the Union having its own hub where other member states as well as Ireland could locate humanitarian aid, including food supplies, tents, vaccines and so on, to be quickly transported to disaster zones, as needed. It is a good idea; Shannon Airport would be an ideal location for such a European hub. It is early days so far as the agricultural fund is concerned. Officials are engaged in more of a scoping examination initially to establish the areas on which the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine can liaise with the agriculture Departments in Tanzania and Kenya to examine agricultural issues, methods and the potential for growth. The idea is to work on these issues and assist these countries to grow and process food to the standard necessary for it to be exported to the EU market. Kenya, for example, is a major producer of coffee, but all of the processing is done in South Africa. In terms of added value, it is packaged, processed and sold through South Africa, rather than Kenya. This needs to change if an economy is to be developed in Kenya and the same applies to Tanzania. This could be quickly replicated in every African country if we had the resources and could encourage them to do so. We have high quality programmes which are more about quality than quantity. A good quality programme could be replicated easily without having to spend a significant amount. The same would be true if we could encourage other Departments to shadow and liaise with their counterparts in Kenya and Tanzania to provide the benefit of their experience to ensure a pragmatic relation- ship between the various Departments. This could prove enormously beneficial in dealing with issues of aid, good governance and administration but also in dealing with trade, development and investment matters down the road. Some of these countries could do with our expertise. The millennium development goals will be reviewed in September 2013. A lot of water will pass under the bridge before 2016 when the new goals will be implemented. Much of our current thinking will feed into this because we will have the benefit from the outset of the review process of having completred our own review. We should, therefore, be reasonably creative with our proposals because we undertook a wide consultation process, involving all of the stakeholders. It is too early to say in what direction the review will move, but this is an 263 Review of White Paper on 9 May 2012. Irish Aid: Statements, Questions and Answers

[Deputy Joe Costello.] exciting period. It is only the beginning of the review of overseas development aid which will take place all over the world. Fortunately or otherwise, we are the first to start down that road; therefore, we will be able to feed into the reviews of other countries.

Senator Terry Brennan: I again refer to the suggestion the Government should invite the newly elected President of Malawi, Joyce Banda, to Ireland. She is appreciative of the aid provided by Ireland and, in particular, the voluntary committee established by the former chairman of Louth County Council. It is a good story and the committee has made a significant contribution to the development of Malawi.

Senator Jim Walsh: I put my question to the Minister of State in committee as well. The issue engages me because of what some countries are doing. Where do we stand on imposing abortion? This is carried out especially by the USA, where there is a strong abortion industry, in some of these African countries. What is Ireland’s position on the matter? The Minister of State remarked that our embassies will play a role in developing trade with African countries. What about Enterprise Ireland? Do we need a separate section to drive trade with these countries? Years ago An Bord Tráchtála assisted small and medium-sized enterprises that did not have the capacity to market their products in these countries. Is there some mechanism whereby the State could become involved to address this lacuna and encourage the development of trade in areas which would otherwise be inaccessible by small companies? It would be a positive development if we could assist in this way.

Deputy Joe Costello: Senator Brennan made a point about President Banda. I do not see why we could not invite her. She has a good track record and has been a strong human rights activist in the past. Two months ago I was in Malawi where there are human rights problems but I believe she will do a good deal. She has already stated that she will address these issues. I should have referred to that matter and to the good work being done by Louth County Council. It is something we do not always hear much about. Many county councils and groups work quietly without any fanfare away from the public eye. They carry out tremendous work. Senator Brennan noted that €400,000 has been given by Louth County Council towards education. Many county councils are engaged with individual projects in individuals countries. This could be encouraged in all local authorities throughout the country. They could twin with another town or get involved in a project. That would be interesting. We will take all of that on board as part of the review of the White Paper. Senator Walsh asked a question about abortion. We are not involved in any way in respect of abortion, as Senator Walsh knows well. Our country’s position is clear in this respect. We are involved in upholding human rights and the dignity of the person. One cannot be involved in trying to help the poorest of the poor without having respect for the person and his or her dignity. From this point of view, human rights must be central to what we are doing. We are supportive of human rights across the board. The Charter of the United Nations is our starting point as well as the various United Nations conventions. We have made this clear from the beginning everywhere we go. This is one of the things encountered by Ministers not only in Irish Aid countries but in other countries throughout the world. It is one element of our agenda if countries are infringing human rights and we always articulate it. Sometimes this approach is not well liked. I recall the first three quarters of an hour with the receiving Minister for Foreign Affairs during the visit to Malawi. We almost had a showdown on human rights and some of the legislation passed there. I will not go through the agenda but eventually we came round to what we had done in Ireland to address some of the issues. He was very pleased to hear about some of our work. I promised to send him some statistics from Dáil and Seanad 264 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage debates and he was pleased to get these. I am unsure whether he is still a Minister following the change in Government.

Senator Jim Walsh: Did that include the right to life?

Deputy Joe Costello: No, that issue did not come up. I do not believe that is an issue in Malawi. One issue raised was the fact that in 2010 Malawi passed a Bill making lesbianism illegal. They passed the legislation because they already had an Act which made homosexuality illegal and they sought to provide equality in respect of making female homosexuality illegal as well. We explained to the Minister the manner we decriminalised homosexuality, the degree of opposition faced and how far we have come in the space of two decades in recognising this human right for the person. He was prepared to take it but only after he had seen the pragmatic side and the way another country addressed the matter in that fashion. The idea in theory was that they were giving equality in reverse. A question was asked about what we can do to encourage trade. We are very much involved in this at present. Enterprise Ireland has been put on notice about our engagement in Africa. Enterprise Ireland established its office in South Africa only recently. There may well be another office established in the not too distant future in one or more areas further north in Africa. The relevant countries have been informed by our embassies that advice is available from our State agencies about trade and investment and that we can conduct business in various forms. We can do it through video-conferencing. That is one way. It can also be done by going directly through our embassies and getting the materials and doing a video conference in our embassy with the various State agencies. These meetings are used to discuss best practice in dealing with trade matters and so on. Those interested in Africa in our private sector are informed as well. A large number of Irish companies have expressed an interest and are involved, and new companies have expressed an interest as well. They are being given all the advice and assistance possible. The only thing we are not doing is giving them Irish Aid money for trade grants. That remains ring-fenced for aid. I believe we will continue to operate as we are at present in sub-Saharan Africa in the areas that are the poorest in the world. I believe this is what the Irish people want us to do for the future.

An Cathaoirleach: That concludes the statements on Irish Aid.

An Cathaoirleach: I welcome a former distinguished Member of the House who is in the Visitors Gallery, former Senator Kathleen O’Meara.

Protection of Children’s Health from Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Order for Second Stage

Bill entitled an Act to amend the Public Health (Tobacco) Act 2002 in order to prohibit the smoking of tobacco products in vehicles where children are present and to provide for the investigation and prosecution of such offences by members of an Garda Síochána. An Cathaoirleach: I welcome the Minister to the House.

Senator John Crown: I move: “That Second Stage be taken today.”

Question put and agreed to.

Protection of Children’s Health from Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage Senator John Crown: I move: “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.” I welcome the Minister to the House. I extend my gratitude to my colleagues across the House for their support in allowing this Bill get to this Stage today. I thank also my fellow 265 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator John Crown.] Senators Jillian van Turnhout and Mark Daly who joined me in advancing this Bill and were extremely important in getting it to this Stage. The Protection of Children’s Health from Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012 is a simple amendment to the existing smoking legislation which would extend the current prohibition on smoking in the workplace to smoking in any mechanically-propelled vehicle in which children under the age of 18 are travelling. With the benefit of ten years of analysis we believe the original legislation was visionary and world changing because it established Ireland as a leading country in the international fight against the scourge of tobacco-related diseases. The background is well known to us all, and especially to the Minister who spoke eloquently in the broadcast media in recent weeks about issues related to tobacco smoke. As we are all aware, smoking is the principal cause of lung cancer. Lung cancer is a rare disease in those who have not smoked. It is the major cause of cancers of the head and neck. It is a significant contributor to a number of other cancers, prominently, cancer of the pancreas, the bladder and other parts of the urinary tract. It is perhaps the principal cause of premature cardiovascular disease including sudden death, heart attacks, heart failure and strokes, which might be fatal or life-threatening in terms of the disability they cause. It is beyond controversy at this stage and generally accepted in the medical, scientific and epidemiological communities that there are substantial health risks associated with passive smoke, second-hand smoke, side-stream smoke or, more generally, environmental tobacco smoke which is endured by non-smokers. We are certain that smoking contributes to an increased incidence of asthma and bronchitis, and the International Agency for Research on Cancer has firmly stated that the data conclus- ively show that systematic exposure to second-hand smoke among lifelong non-smokers is a substantial contributory cause to the occurrence of lung cancer. As a result, many international bodies have now come out and made statements firmly against second-hand smoke in favour of measures to restrict the exposure of non-smokers to second-hand smoke. These bodies include the World Health Organization, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, the US Surgeon General and the National Institutes of Health and National Cancer Institute in the United States. Children face particular additional risks associated with passive smoke as they breathe more rapidly than adults and, therefore, take more breaths per minute. As a result, they have a greater level of internal exposure to any environmental toxin in the air they breathe. Further- more, owing to their small size and the efficiency with which gas exchange occurs in their lungs, they have a higher level of tissue exposure per molecule of poisonous chemical in the atmosphere than adults. It is beyond doubt that children who are exposed to second-hand smoke run additional risks, especially in the areas of infection, bronchitis, asthma and, very worryingly, meningitis, which is often a sequel of other respiratory infections. Sadly, there is conclusive evidence that sudden infant death syndrome is more common in infants who are exposed to second-hand smoke. In addition, the British Medical Association has stated its belief, following an analysis of the data, that the incidence of childhood cancers, by which I mean not only respiratory cancers but those cancers which, sadly, occur in children, including brain tumours and lymphoma, are more common in children who are exposed environmentally to second- hand smoke. There is also some data to show that children who have early childhood exposure may have a higher risk of developing lung cancer in later life. The car is a particularly hazardous environment and it is obvious its small confines increase risk to the exposure to smoke. Some of the numbers are startling. Within one minute of a cigarette being lit in an enclosed car, the occupational concentration of dangerous particulates 266 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage in smoke is 30 times higher than the level at which the Environmental Protection Agency in the United States advocates that people flee the streets and close the windows in their homes to escape environmental smoke. The exposure after one hour in a car with smokers is the same as that which a firefighter experiences in four to eight hours of fighting a brush fire. Tellingly, the emissions are five times higher from a cigarette smoked in the car than from the tail pipe of the car during the period in which the driving is taking place. One hour spent in a smoky car produces the same occupational exposure as eight hours in a smoky pub, which is, thankfully, something of which few people in this country have proximate memories. The next question is whether the problem of smoking in cars exists. Smokers and their advocacy groups argue that responsible parents who smoke will not smoke in cars with children present and the legislation is, therefore, unnecessary. I acknowledge that many smoking parents show a degree of responsibility in not smoking in cars with their children. I wish they would show a higher level of responsibility and give up smoking because they are exposing their children to smoke in other environments and running the real risk of leaving them orphaned. The responsible decision for a parent who smokes is to stop smoking. The problem of smoking in cars with children exists. We have all seen people stuck in lines of traffic or car parks reaching for and lighting up a cigarette in a car in which children are present. Members have had considerable contact and received many messages in their offices from concerned citizens. The overwhelming majority of them are supportive of this proposed legislation. The small minority who oppose the Bill are overwhelmingly smokers who, when asked, admit they smoke in the car with children present. It is essential we pass this Bill, which is not a civil liberties issue but an issue concerning the rights of the child. No one has a right to expose a child to cigarette smoke. In terms of liability the Bill specifies where the liability lies for the act of smoking in a car with children. As a result of the minor amendment, it will extend the list of specified places in the Public Health (Tobacco) Act 2002 to include “a mechanically propelled vehicle in which a person under the age of 18 is present”. Section 47(1) of the Act lists a number of locations where it is an offence to smoke. Any person who smokes in such prescribed places is breaking the law. Under subsection (3), the liability extends to the person who is in charge of the enclosed space in question, in this case, the driver of the car. In addition, the Garda is given the power to enforce the law. This brings me to the issue of enforcement because it has been argued that the law, while laudable in its goals, is fundamentally unenforceable. That is an error. In the first instance, the primary benefit of the legislation is not that we will create a crime against which enforcement will ensue, although the legislation will be enforced, but an educational one because a message will be sent out that, having considered all the evidence, a group of experts as well as the Minister, Department and legislators, is supportive of a ban on this activity because it is so dangerous and exposes children to risk. The next time someone thinks about lighting a cigarette or cigar in a car with children present, he or she will be aware this argument has been made. There will also be moral pressure from those who witness the lighting up taking place and the real moral pressure, of which all parents are aware, that is exerted by children who, in many cases, will not be slow to let their parents know they are doing something which is risky to children and against the law. Even if these moral strictures and educational incentives do not work, there is in the legislation provision for specific enforcement by the Garda, with a ministerial right to set a fine. This Bill is not wholly unprecedented. Cyprus, for example, has already banned smoking in cars with children present and various jurisdictions across North America have enacted such bans. Many more jurisdictions are in the process of enacting similar prohibitions. It is 267 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator John Crown.] interesting in this election year in the US that two of the four states to ban smoking in cars with children, namely, Arkansas and Louisiana, are red states that are likely to support Gov- ernor Romney for President, while the other two are blue states, namely, California and Maine, which are likely to support President Obama. This is not a civil liberties or left versus right issue but a health issue that extends across the spectrum of public opinion. Whatever one’s attitude to the role of government or the necessity for good public health legislation, it is apparent to smart legislators who examine the issue that we should take this measure. Several Canadian provinces, a number of Australian states and some other individual jurisdictions have come down on the side of introducing such legislation. This brings me to the issue of timelines. I have been heartened to receive many messages of support for the legislation from across the political spectrum. The Minister, for instance, expressed his support and noted the necessity for such a ban in the broadcast media. I salute him and offer him my gratitude. It is important we move on this issue, set a date and engage properly with the departmental officials who will have an input into the subsequent Stages of the Bill. We need to implement the legislation quickly. We should set a goal of ensuring children who travel by car with parents or guardians on their summer holidays this year do so in a smoke-free environment. I will mention a young boy of seven years from County Wexford, Fionn O’Callaghan, who is known to the Minister and me. When Fionn witnessed someone lighting a cigarette in a car with children present, he took it on himself to write to the Taoiseach asking him to use his good offices to introduce legislation to enforce a smoking ban where children are present in a car. My understanding is this rather forward and highly talented young man also doorstepped the Minister for Health during a visit he made to Wexford. I also understand several organisations which have the word “Ógra” in their title may well be approaching Fionn with a view to his future career development. When he spoke to parliamentarians at an information evening held in the audio-visual room last week, Fionn made the case more eloquently than any of us older adults could do and stated it was wrong that somebody like him should, in an involuntary fashion, be forced to be exposed to the smoke of an adult who is not responsible enough to protect him or her from it. It is incumbent on all Members and part of our responsibility as parliamentarians to ensure the civil liberties and rights of our children to live, as far as possible, in an atmosphere that is protected from wholly preventable cancer and disease causing chemicals are vindicated. I thank Members for their attention.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout: I support the Bill and welcome the Minister to the House. I thank my colleagues, Senators Crown and Daly, for their collaboration on and commitment to this important public health and children’s rights initiative. I echo Senator Crown’s words on young Fionn O’Callaghan who, if he were present, would certainly convince everyone in this Chamber of the reason this Bill needs to be enacted without delay. Article 24 on the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child states that state parties recognise the right of the child to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health. By banning smoking in cars with children present, we aim to protect the health of children who cannot otherwise protect themselves. I am not immune to some of the concerns raised by others in the lead up to this debate. It reminded me of the months preceding the ban on smoking in the workplace in March 2004. I was not convinced that it would work or whether it was right, because I was accustomed to going into a pub or cafe and leaving with the smell of smoke on my hair and on my clothes. Smoking had become so normalised for me that I did not know anything different. I was like the prisoners of Plato’s cave; I had accepted the dancing shadows as my reality. However, at the very least, this mistake was one which I had the autonomy to 268 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage make. Children do not enjoy this luxury. They cannot extract themselves from smoke filled environments as I could. They are often less aware of the dangers of second-hand smoke, while those who know the risks may not be in a position to challenge their parents or the adults who are driving them. Indeed, they should not have to do so. All children believe that their parents can shield them from danger, and that is a fiction they have a right to believe. Children should always feel safe when with their parents. They need to know that if nothing else, their mothers and fathers will always have their best interests at heart. By regulating this behaviour, we are taking the onus off the child and placing it back onto the parents, challenging them to live up to the expectations of their children. I am sure everyone agrees that the medical evidence presented by Senator Crown is utterly compelling, yet in reviewing the arguments, I am reminded of an anecdote a bar tender once told me. Before the smoking ban was introduced, he would wipe down the bar every night and without fail the cloth was covered in thick grime. Once the ban came into force, he said he only had to wipe the bar down twice a week and the same level of grime was not there. That put a picture in my head of how much we do not see. While it is only an anecdote, I can but imagine the effect a prolonged exposure to such levels of smoke would do to the lungs of a child. According to the British Medical Association, the level of toxins in a car can be up to 11 times higher than in a smoky bar. The national longitudinal study of children noted in 2009 that approximately 60% of nine year olds in Ireland travel to school by car, with an average journey time of ten minutes each way. In addition, we know that children are driven to sporting and youth activities, to other events and homes of friends, and to medical and other appointments. All that time in the car adds up. However, exposure of children to smoke during these journeys represents a substantial risk to their health and well being, so efforts must be made to ensure that these children enjoy the same protection that we have already afforded to adults. We all believe that we have a right not to be harmed or subjected to a significant risk of harm. When it became widely accepted that inhaling second-hand smoke posed such a risk, we legislated for this behaviour. If we believe that a child has the same right to protection from harm that adults enjoy, then there is a corresponding obligation to protect that child from the danger of second-hand smoke. Indeed the risk of harm from exposure to smoke is greater in the case of children. They are far more sensitive to tobacco smoke because their lungs and bodily defence mechanisms are still developing, because they inhale far more pollutants per pound of body weight than adults, and because they are more likely to have allergies or other conditions which make them more sensitive to airborne pollutants. I have heard arguments that this legislation should be part of a wider prohibition of smoking in public places such as parks and beaches. Perhaps there is a need for greater public debate, and I welcome what the Minister has done to raise awareness among the public and to begin that debate. The Bill put forward today deals with a very discrete issue of smoking in cars with children. I appeal to county councillors around the country to use the by-laws and regulations of their councils to look at areas such as playgrounds and other places frequented by children. For example, I believe Fingal County Council is hoping to put it in place in the near future. Sometimes councillors say that they do not have powers to do certain things, but they have the powers to do this, so I appeal to councillors to use the powers they have where children are directly put in harm’s way. I echo the calls of Senator Crown in asking the Minister to accept the Bill today. He should also give a commitment on what will happen over the coming days and weeks. I ask the Minister to outline a clear timetable for the next Stages of this Bill. My hope is that this Bill will be in place for the summer holidays, so that children can go on holidays in a smoke free environment. This gives us enough time to consider any amendments, while also creating an urgency to 269 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator Jillian van Turnhout.] protect children’s health. The aim of such measures is to denormalise smoking. This Bill is about the protection of one of the most fundamental rights; the right of the child to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health. I am very aware of the Minister’s commitment to this issue. I hope that today will be a first step of many quick steps that will soon see this Bill in place, so that we can show the power we have to improve and protect children’s health.

Senator Colm Burke: I welcome the Minister and I welcome the Bill put forward by Senator Crown, seconded by Senator van Turnhout and supported by Senator Daly. This is a welcome development. The Government side will look at it very carefully as there may be additional proposals or amendments made so that it can be fully implemented and be enforced. However, the overall attitude of the Government is to take on board this proposal and see it through. One in every four people in this country smokes. Therefore, three out of every four people do not smoke. Up until a few years ago, these people encountered smoke no matter where they went, yet while we have since banned it in bars and restaurants, we have not banned it in cars. If three out of every four people who travel do not smoke, why should they have to sit and put up with the habits of other people? Over 5,000 people die prematurely every year as a result of smoking themselves or by enduring the habits of other smokers. Anything that can be done to reduce that risk is welcome. It is interesting to see more recent figures on attitudes in Ireland and how we still lead in Europe in respect of young people who smoke. We still do not appear to have put across the message strongly enough. I read a survey where the figure for young smokers in Europe is as low as 12.1% in Sweden, 17% in Norway, and 20.7% in Italy, but in Ireland it is 22.4%. We still have a substantial number of young people who are beginning to smoke, and once people start smoking, it is that much more difficult for them to give it up. Anything that can help to reduce the number of people who smoke must be welcome. The Minister already outlined proposals last December to make it mandatory for graphic images to be placed on packaging from 1 February 2013. These images set out quite clearly the damage that smoking can cause to a person’s health. From 1 February 2014, no packet of cigarettes can be sold without those graphic images, and that is welcome. We have much work to do to persuade people not to smoke. Some 29% of people are still smoking and 24% smoke regularly. The problem is continuing and we are not making the inroads we should me making. Despite campaigns warning people about the health risks of smoking, the message is not getting home. We need to be more proactive. The Bill is another step in getting the message across. It deserves the support of this House and of the Dáil. We must make this amendment to the law. Senator Crown has set the Bill out clearly. It is short and makes minor amendments. We must consider the concerns of the Government that the Bill be enforceable. I have already outlined my reservation about one issue. Could a person of 17 be prosecuted for smoking while driving a car? That is a technical issue and similar technical issues must be looked at. Overall, the Bill is welcome and we should support it. It has the support of the Fine Gael group in the Seanad. We will table amendments at a later stage, but the general proposal is welcome. I congratulate Senators Crown, Daly and van Turnhout on bringing forward the legislation.

Senator Mary M. White: I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill. I commend Senators John Crown and Jillian van Turnhout and my Fianna Fáil colleague, Senator Mark Daly, on bringing it forward. 270 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

Some 7,000 people die from smoking related diseases in Ireland every year. Anything we can do about this is to be commended. As Minister for Health and Children in 2004, the Fianna Fáil leader, Deputy Micheál Martin, introduced the first national smoking ban. The smoking ban was acknowledged nationally and internationally as the world’s first ban on smoking in the workplace. The Government must support this Bill and introduce other measures aimed at eliminating smoking from society. At the launch of the Bill in the audio-visual room last week, Senator Crown said the legislation is very important and will limit the exposure of children to harmful cigarette smoke in cars. Exposure of children to smoke in cars is especially dangerous as the levels of second-hand smoke in cars are very high because of the restricted area in which the smoke is circulated. As a result, the levels of smoke in cars is far higher than those in buildings. Second-hand smoke in cars can be ten times more concentrated than the levels considered unhealthy by the US Environmental Protection Agency. For the above reasons, my Fianna Fáil colleagues and I support the Bill. Tobacco products and smoking have a severe and negative impact on the health of the nation. Such impacts come from active smoking or from exposure to second-hand smoke. I am an ex-smoker. I gave up smoking more than 25 years ago. It was the achievement of my life and gave me the self-confidence to conquer other challenges. I loved every cigarette I smoked. I have empathy with the people I see smoking. However, the chance of getting lung cancer if one smokes for 25 years is very high. I commend the Bill and wish it a fruitful passage through the House.

Senator John Gilroy: With the agreement of the House, I will share my time with Senator Mary Moran.

An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator John Gilroy: I welcome the Minister to the House. I welcome the introduction of the Bill, which is a meaningful function and demonstrates how the House can work effectively. It also points to the wisdom of our Constitution in allowing an acknowledged expert, like Senator Crown, to have an input in the policy-making and legislative processes of the Oireachtas. While some people would complain about what this House does, this is a day when the Seanad is fulfilling an important role, the role for which it was designed. It is also good we can find cross-party support for the Bill. It shows that well-drafted, well-considered and well- intentioned legislation can find a way through the House, irrespective of which bench it comes from. The Bill is straightforward and sensible. It raises the question of why it is necessary. It is a poor reflection on society that we find it necessary to make a law to prevent people from smoking in vehicles when there are children in those vehicles. One would imagine common sense and an ordinary sense of responsibility would make it clear to anyone that exposing children to second-hand smoke is unacceptable and that smoking in an enclosed space where children are present, such as a car, is particularly so. However, this is the world we live in and we should waste no time in bringing this legislation through the House. Senator Crown presented a wide selection of supporting documentation to put his proposal in context. Having read those documents, we must give considerable consideration to the Bill. I am an ex-smoker. Anyone who smokes will be alarmed to hear that there are 4,000 chemicals in tobacco smoke, including 60 known or suspected carcinogens. The effects of inhaling second- hand smoke are well known. Less well known is the fact that inhaling second-hand smoke in enclosed spaces exposes people to a much higher risk. For children to be exposed to second- 271 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator John Gilroy.] hand smoke is bad enough, but for them to be exposed to it in the confines of a car is unacceptable. That those exposing children to second-hand smoke are likely to be their parents or guardians is the epitome of irresponsibility. We should not need to make this point, but I suppose we must. If anyone wants to smoke, it is up to him or herself, so long as the activity does not expose others to second-hand smoke. At one time it was acceptable to smoke in bars and restaurants. I am sure the Minister remembers that 25 years ago it was acceptable to smoke in hospitals. Today, it seems appalling that people tolerate smoke in these situations. When the smoking ban was proposed, every type of argument was put forward as to why it could not and would not work. However, it was introduced, the sky did not fall in and the sun rose on following morning. Very few people would disagree that the implementation of the smoking ban was a good thing. People wondered how the ban would be policed and all sorts of bizarre scenarios were put forward about diverting Garda and HSE resources away from their core duties and towards tracking down establishments where the smoking ban was not being implemented. Proponents of the ban said that would not be necessary, that the ban would be, more or less, self-enforcing and that giving the ban a legislative framework would effect a cultural change where people would take responsibility for their own health. If one lit a cigarette in a bar today, it is unlikely the Garda would be called. Bystanders would make it known, in no uncer- tain terms, that it was unacceptable. The Bill is more about education than sanctioning people. That is welcome and practical. It will effect a cultural change. I have one concern. Section 2 defines a child as someone aged 17 and under. Such a person can drive a car but cannot smoke while driving. The Labour Party supports the Bill.

Senator Mary Moran: I add my support to the Bill and I commend the Senators on bringing it to the House. I also welcome the Minister. Proven statistics on cancers and health related illnesses caused by second-hand smoke have long been highlighted. The ban on smoking in the workplace introduced in 2004 has been hugely successful and widely accepted throughout the country, despite initial reservations. I am delighted to see the Bill before the House. I welcomed publicly the measure it proposes when it was raised in the House last year. I also commend health groups and welcome representatives of those groups who are in the Visitors Gallery. I acknowledge the work of ASH Ireland, which in 2008 launched a campaign to ban smoking in cars transporting children under the age of 16. I commend the Minister and agree with him we have a duty of care to our citizens and the duty is all the greater to citizens who do not have a voice, our children. That is the key fact we need to remember. Speakers have referred to research and statistics on the dangers of second-hand smoke. Research shows passive smoke is especially harmful to children as they have a much higher respiratory and metabolic rate than adults. It is interesting that one survey carried out in 2009 showed that one in seven Irish children is exposed to second-hand smoke while travelling by car to school. That will have severe negative respiratory health effects. Children are particularly vulnerable to the effects of second-hand smoke and exposure can increase the risk of respiratory diseases and even cot death. Second-hand smoke is 23 times more toxic in a car than in a bus. That is another urgent reason for the need to introduce the legislation. We will have widespread support in the community for the change. In a recent Automobile Association, AA, poll, 85% of those surveyed agreed that smoking should be banned in cars where there are children as passengers. Passive smoking is the third most preventable cause of 272 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage death in this country after direct smoking and drinking alcohol. We owe it to our children to protect them as much as we can. I welcome the Bill to prevent children’s health being harmed and to raise awareness of the dangers of second-hand smoke by banning smoking in cars where children are present. I am delighted that we appear to have cross-party support. I commend the Bill to the House.

Senator Sean D. Barrett: I wish to share time with my colleague, Senator Norris.

Acting Chairman (Senator Paschal Mooney): Does Senator Barrett wish to indicate how much time he is giving to Senator Norris?

Senator Sean D. Barrett: It is strictly within the control of the Acting Chairman.

Acting Chairman (Senator Paschal Mooney): I will take the Senator up on that. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Sean D. Barrett: This is a fantastic opportunity. The Minister can declare, as a result of the Bill so ably proposed by Senator Crown, 2 million places where smoking will no longer be permitted. There are 2 million private cars in the country out of a total of 2.5 million vehicles. We do not have smoking in the other 500,000 vehicles because they are regarded as workplaces and, accordingly, we do not smoke in buses and taxis. Nobody campaigns to have smoking re-introduced in buses and taxis. Approximately 1.2 million children will gain from the Minister designating 2 million places out of bounds as regards smoking. We could add parks and beaches but I will return to the number of 2 million, as this is a fantastic opportunity to ban smoking in 2 million cars. It strengthens what we have been doing extremely well. Senator White referred to the smoking ban elsewhere — this is a logical extension of it — and the improvement in safety in general in transport in this country. We used to have more than 600 fatalities but it has now reduced to 180. We are making society much healthier. We might not always score highly in international banking comparisons but in this area we are leading the way in making this a healthier and better society. I commend the Minister on his leadership. Ireland is showing the world how to go. One could ask what else we could do. It is worth examining the question of a no-claims bonus for non-smokers in health insurance as they are making positive attempts to improve their health standards. Perhaps the Minister would indicate whether that would be worth considering. There should no longer be smoking areas attached to hospitals. I accept that they have been moved away from the front doors of hospitals but it is strange that we are practising high quality medicine in hospital yet there are people smoking in the vicinity of doorways. We might conduct research on the damage smoke does in house fires. They are appalling. When one sees on film how a fire develops, one does not have to worry about people being burned as they are destroyed by the smoke, whether the cause is due to electrical faults or people smoking in houses. Those are the next steps. This is a magnificent step forward by Senator Crown. I commend him and Senators van Turnhout, Burke and Daly. There is agreement across the House that this is worthwhile legislation. I commend it and thank the Minister for his attendance.

Senator David Norris: I thank Senator Barrett for his kindness. I commend my colleagues, in particular Senator Crown. I was fortunate enough to be in the AV room when he made his presentation. His speech on the Bill was a concentrated and even more brilliant demonstration of the presentation. I was greatly taken by the forcefulness, clarity and chutzpah of the young lad, Fionn O’Callaghan, in approaching the Taoiseach. I also learned this evening that he door- 273 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator David Norris.] stepped the Minister. More power to him. He made a powerful argument indeed. I am pleased the Minister appears to be accepting the Bill because I was a little worried that he might want to associate it with the ban on smoking in parks and other public places, as there has been a campaign in that regard. The figures show that while there is a huge public swell of support for this measure, there is a considerable degree of resistance still to people being banned from smoking on beaches, for example. It would be a significant step forward to isolate the Bill and get it through the Houses in its present guise with massive public support. I am pleased the Bill includes specifically the driver of the vehicle. One suggestion I made at the briefing had perhaps already occurred to Senator Crown, as he indicated that he felt it was already covered, albeit indirectly. In my usual way I can claim a small contribution to the Bill. Without Senator Crown we would not have had the Bill, which proves also the relevance of the Seanad. This is yet another example of a major social advance being made in this House. I am sure the Minister will pay tribute to that, as his predecessor, who just left the Chamber, the Minister of State, Deputy Costello, paid tribute to the valuable contribution of Seanad Éireann in his generous remarks. The issue is quite clear; children have no choice. Mea culpa, I speak as a sinner. I keep trying to give up smoking. I do not always succeed. I go back to it. It is an addiction. When I was young it was the thing to do. All the handsomest men in the cinema such as Cary Grant smoked. Audrey Hepburn had a cigarette holder out to here and she was the most glamorous thing on two legs. I draw Senator Crown’s attention to the fact that doctors used to prescribe smoking as a cure for asthma. It really is lunacy. I am a victim of my age, if one likes, but there is no excuse now. Likewise, there is no excuse for parents subjecting their children to this kind of nuisance. However, I would take very little comfort from the fact that Cyprus was the first to sign up to such a measure. I know Cyprus pretty well. It signed up to all kinds of things such as MOT tests. I drove up the mountains behind lorries filled with vines and the smoke coming out of the back of them would blind God almighty. I have seen people go down to the seaside in cars filled with children and both parents and half the children were puffing away on cigarettes. Even the farmers throw lighted cigarettes out of the car window. Every year we have fires caused as a result of such action. Let us not be like that; let us be firm and clear. Let us introduce the legislation.

Acting Chairman (Senator Paschal Mooney): I must inform the Senator that he is over time.

Senator David Norris: In that case I will just end by saying that this is a principle and we do discriminate against children. It is awful that we do it. I will communicate with the Minister on a matter, the fact that to my certain knowledge a 14 year old girl is being told that she must wait 18 months for an endoscopy. We should put children first. As an adult I got an endoscopy within a week because I was on the highest scheme in the VHI. So is this girl. We must do something about that.

Acting Chairman (Senator Paschal Mooney): The Senator is sinning again.

Minister for Health (Deputy James Reilly): Tááthas orm an Bille seo a ghlacadh ó na Seanadóirí, ach tá deacracht éigin leis agus caithfimid caint mar gheall ar sin. I am delighted that Senators Crown, van Turnhout and Daly have put forward this Bill. As others have said, the topic of smoking in cars where children are present has received much public attention in the past year or so, although it was mooted a number of years before that by Dr. Fenton Howell and ASH. The Bill is now contributing to that welcome focus. This topic 274 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage and the issue of smoking in public places is being discussed around the nation in kitchens, pubs, workplaces and on the airwaves. Getting people’s attention on the issue and generating a debate can only be a very good thing, regardless of what view one takes on the matter. Mobilis- ing public awareness on any issue is an important step if we wish to successfully change our lifestyle behaviours. Senators are aware of my position on the issue. I have expressed it many times. I previously indicated my stance and I am committed to taking the steps necessary to significantly reduce smoking in this country. I am particularly committed to working towards a time when children and young people will come to regard smoking as a foolish and unattractive thing to do. I am fully in favour of legislating for a ban on smoking in cars where children are present. As others have mentioned, I wish to make the debate a bit wider. Like all things in life, when one brings about a change, there is a little bit of shock and an uncomfortable sense about it but as people have time to think the matter through, debate and discuss it and realise the pros and cons, one gets a greater understanding and willingness to embrace the change. As people take time to consider, debate and discuss the matter and realise the pros and cons involved, there will be a greater understanding of it and also, perhaps, more of a willingness to embrace the change, particularly when it is aimed at safeguarding those who do not have a voice and look to us to protect them. I could have taken legal advice which would have suggested the Bill ought to be withdrawn. However, while there are numerous difficulties with the legislation, I am not going to seek its withdrawal because I want to accept it. We will have a great deal of work to do in ensuring it passes Committee Stage. There are a number of reasons for this which I will discuss in detail. As stated, the Government supports the Bill. I hope Senators will allow my officials and I to progress it through the legislative process. A number of legal considerations arise in respect of the Bill in its current form. The first relates to seeking legal clarification on whether the Bill must be notified to the European Commission under the technical standards directive prior to its proceeding through the legislative process. If it does prove necessary to refer it to the Commission and other member states, the legal advice indicates that this could involve a standstill period of between three and six months. I hope such an eventuality will not come to pass. There are several other issues with the Bill, one of which is the fact that the Senators are seeking to addend it to the public health (tobacco) (amendment) Bill which, in part, relates to the workplace. Clearly, a car is not always a workplace. As a result, a number of matters arise. We want to ensure the legislation is robust and effective in its operation. I am confident that by working together we can achieve this. If there are deficiencies in the Bill, they will be exploited and challenged by the tobacco industry. I want to be clear about one matter and hope my previous utterances on it have been sufficiently transparent. The Bill is not concerned with restricting the rights of adults, rather it is about protecting the rights of children. Neither is it about attacking smokers. It seeks to ensure children will not be exposed to environmental tobacco smoke in cars. Children may not be aware of the dangers of exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and cannot remove themselves from risk if people smoke around them. As others have stated, the Bill will empower children, particularly those who are older, to speak up in defence of their own rights. We recognise that most people are sensible and would not expose their children to the risk to which I refer if they had full knowledge of the harm being caused. The Bill and the debate on it will make that knowledge available to them. However, there will still be irresponsible individuals who will put their own addiction and habit ahead of their children’s health. We need to legislate for such individuals. 275 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Deputy James Reilly.]

Like previous speakers, I emphasise that environmental tobacco smoke is a carcinogen and contains the same cancer causing substances and toxic agents inhaled by the smoker. There is no safe level of exposure to environmental tobacco smoke. It is obvious that exposure to cigarette smoke is particularly dangerous in enclosed spaces such as the interior of a car. Parents and others with responsibility for the welfare of children have a particular obligation to ensure such exposure does not take place. We sometimes miss out on the relevant statistics. In that context, 5,200 people die every year as a result of conditions caused by tobacco smoking. This means that 5,200 families and communities are affected by the results of smoking. Those who die are are our brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers and friends. We do not want the next generation to suffer the same hardship and loss as that experienced by this generation and the one which preceded it. Senator David Norris alluded to his own situation. I recall my father who was also a doctor informing me that if he had known at the age of seven years, when he began to smoke, what he had subsequently learned in his forties, he would never have taken up the habit. We all imitate what we see and denormalising smoking is about eliminating the images of smoking with which children are presented. Reference was made to the allure of smoking as portrayed on television and in films. I have clear and even fond memories from childhood of watching western films and then going to the shop to buy a bottle of red lemonade — very important that it was red — and a packet of sweet cigarettes. This was so that I could sit around drinking a glass of pretend whiskey, smoking a pretend cigarette and acting like I was a cowboy. Chil- dren learn by imitating their parents and other adults. We are all aware that in the early teenage years, peer pressure is a far greater influence than parental pressure. As Senator John Crown observed, smoking in cars has been banned in a number of countries. We are undertaking a comprehensive review of such bans in the context of their effectiveness and how they have been implemented. We also require information on the level of compliance and methods of enforcement in the countries to which I refer. I have asked the Health Research Board to review all of the international evidence in this regard. I have also allocated money for the board to examine the reasons the prevalence of smoking in this country has not decreased, despite the smoking ban. Even though our children are not, as we were, exposed to tobacco advertising and do not see the brightly coloured cigarette packets on the shelf behind the sweet counter in their local shops, the prevalence of smoking remains stubbornly high at 29%. We need to discover what the tobacco industry is doing to ensnare the next generation. If one were to consider this matter logically, one would ask children and young adults why they were prepared to pay the guts of €10 for a product that was going to cause them ill health, lead to their contracting cancer and cause them to die earlier than should be the case. Cancer is not the only condition to which tobacco smoking gives rise. People who smoke can also suffer heart attacks and strokes and contract peripheral vascular disease. In my medical practice I used to give patients who had diabetes and smoked a little piece of paper that was to be inserted into every box of cigarettes they bought and on which was written the following, “Diabetes plus smoking equals amputation”. That is how bad smoking is for diabetics. The chances of diabetics who smoke losing, first, a toe and, later on, a limb are huge. In some cases, amputation is almost inevitable. The Research Institute for a Tobacco Free Society has conducted research to estimate the prevalence of environmental tobacco smoke exposure in cars in Ireland. The initial research which covered almost 3,000 children aged 13 to 14 years indicated that 14.9% of children were exposed to smoking in cars. The Health Research Board’s review, to which I referred, has highlighted a US survey which contains worrying statistics. It indicates that 23% of the 11 to 276 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

15 year olds surveyed stated they had been an occupant in a car with someone who was smoking in the week prior to their completing the questionnaire. Research carried out by the MRBI in 2007 on behalf of ASH Ireland showed 79% public support for the initiative in respect of smoking in cars. ASH Ireland also refers to an ongoing poll on irishhealth.com which shows that over 80% support a ban on smoking in cars. The levels of compliance and public support for smoke-free public places legislation demonstrate that people are keen to reduce their exposure to second-hand smoke. A study which considered smoking in the home after the smoke-free public places legislation had come into force in Scotland found that respondents had more robust restrictions on smoking in their cars than in their homes. While I am in no doubt that all parents, relatives and carers want to protect the health of the children in their care, sometimes the onus is on us, the policy and law makers, to remind people of their obligations in this regard. Again, I cannot help but re-emphasise the fact that this matter relates to children who have neither a voice nor a vote and who look to us to protect them. We have a duty of care to these children and must fulfil that duty. The development of the legislation before the House is a way of reminding those who care about the welfare of their children not to light up in a car in which children are present. It will also serve as a punitive measure for those who knowingly continue to disregard the welfare of children. Peer pressure does count. When the legislation is eventually enacted, if one sees someone smoking in a car in which children are present, one will feel empowered and have every right to beep one’s horn, roll down one’s window and remonstrate with him or her. Taking action in respect of those who smoke in cars in which children are present is just one of the many matters being considered by my Department. As stated, smoking is the greatest single cause of preventable illness and premature death in Ireland. The number of premature deaths caused by tobacco use in Ireland is far greater than the combined death toll relating to car accidents, fires, heroin and cocaine abuse, murders and suicides. It is a shocking fact that we allow such a product to be used by minors. In 2000 the document, Towards a Tobacco Free Society, was adopted as Government policy. Our aim continues to be a move towards a tobacco-free society. I am particularly concerned about the number of young people who continue to take up the habit each year. While it is heartening that the numbers of school-aged children who smoke has been decreasing steadily in recent years, more needs to be done to understand why young people start to smoke. My Department is smoking — I mean working. It certainly is not smoking.

(Interruptions).

Senator Mark Daly: Hopefully not.

Deputy James Reilly: My Department is working on commissioning research which will give us the answers to this question in the Irish context. We must remember our young people are not now exposed to tobacco industry advertising in the media or in shops as they used to be. The pull factors are coming from other areas and sources which we must identify to effectively tackle them. Tomorrow, the Secretary General of the Department of Health will issue the instruction that it will be a smoke-free campus. I agree with Senators that it is weird that when one walks to the front door of a hospital, one has to wade through cigarette smoke and butts. The tobacco policy review group is working on finalising its report which I will be submitting to my Cabinet colleagues for approval. This report will be of assistance in reducing the level of smoking in our society. A major part of achieving this is to denormalise smoking in our society. There are initiatives already under way that play an important role in denormalising smoking. One 277 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Deputy James Reilly.] example is the tobacco-free hospital campus initiatives operated by the Health Service Execu- tive, HSE. When I attended the United Nations last year in New York, I noted the city authorities amended the Smoke-Free Air Act to ban smoking in some outdoor public spaces, specifically all New York city public parks, beaches, boardwalks, marinas, public golf courses, sports stadia and pedestrian plazas such as Times Square. Fingal County Council has taken the initiative in this area and completed a pilot study on this over the past year. It will be voting at its next meeting on making 50 parks with playground areas smoke-free zones. In its research the council found that 95% of people are in favour of reducing second-hand smoke in playgrounds while 95% are in favour of a complete ban on smoking in playgrounds. In 2008, cigarette waste formed 47.3% of the overall litter composition in Fingal. One journalist made the point she does not want her children rooting around in the sand on the beach finding cigarette butts. I believe the debate about smoking in cars in which there are children is at the point that most people understand its significance, the harm it causes and the need to ban it. I hope with a bit more time, people will understand the problems presented by people smoking where children are present such as in parks and on beaches. If we can enforce the law around mobile telephone use while driving, we can certainly enforce a law around smoking in cars with children present. This is not about a nanny state. We are not telling adults what to do in their own time and place. We are advising them it will be against the law to endanger children through their personal habit. I congratulate Senators Crown, Daly and van Turnhout for the introduction of this Bill. I want it to progress as quickly as possible but there are legal considerations. The Government has a heavy legislative schedule but it is great that the Seanad can contribute by bringing forward its own legislation.

Senator Mark Daly: I am sharing time with Senator MacSharry.

Acting Chairman (Senator Paschal Mooney): Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Mark Daly: I welcome the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, to the House and thank him for his statement. We are fortunate to have him, as well as Senator Crown, in this debate. Both doctors have significant experience in this field and Senator van Turnhout has experience as an advocate of children’s rights. To praise the Minister comes easy given he has welcomed the Bill. Since I was elected to the House, often when Fianna Fáil was in government, positive legislation was shot down just because it came from the other side of the House. The Minister could easily have come in here claiming there are flaws in the Bill and, accordingly, he would not accept it. We accept no Bill will be introduced in this House and leave in the same condition. Amendments will have to be made. The Minister has pointed out some amendments that have to be made but I am glad he is willing to work with the legislation put together by Senator Crown and his staff, Shane Conneely. It points out the Seanad can do things differently because it has the expertise. Senator Crown pointed out how a child in a car with an adult smoking will inhale as much smoke as a fire-fighter will inhale fighting a four to eight hour fire. That statement alone tells us this legislation is right. The fact it was not done previously now strikes us as strange. What we also have is widespread support for this measure. In Australia, similar legislation in 2005 had a 90% approval. Up to 72% of people surveyed in England support banning smoking in cars while children are present. An international review of North America, the UK and Aus- tralasia shows an overall 76% approval for banning smoking in cars with children present. In 278 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage years to come, we will find it strange that this did not happen a long time ago as smoking causes more deaths than suicide, alcohol and cocaine, and children exposed to second-hand smoke are more likely to have cancer in later life. I thank the Minister for his genuine support for this Bill. I know there will be changes and I, along with Senators Crown and van Turnhout, look forward to working with his Depart- ment’s officials to ensure this legislation can be introduced before the summer. I acknowledge the difficulties the Minister outlined. Not that I read the Bible much but I recall the adage to the effect that if one saves one life, one saves the world entire. Changing people’s attitudes and ensuring children are not exposed to harmful second-hand smoke — which as Senator van Turnhout said of which they have no control — by bringing in this simple law will ensure lives are saved. The figure of over 5,000 people who die every year as a result of smoking will also be reduced. As a result of the Minister’s actions on this legislation, many people will live to enjoy old age in the comfort of their families and friends.

Senator Marc MacSharry: I thank the Minister for coming to the House. I commend Senators Crown, Daly and van Turnhout for their initiative in bringing forward this legislation. Eight years ago, Fianna Fáil and our current leader, Deputy Martin, brought forward the smoking ban. As a smoker at the time, I opposed this internally in the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party. Now, having been off cigarettes for six and a half years and with the benefit of hindsight, I must say there is no way I would have succeeded to give them up if it were not for the smoking ban. To any smoker in a car with children in it wondering when he or she can have a cigarette I say he or she will look back on legislation such as this and offer great thanks. There is no question but that it will save lives. I am sure other Senators have gone through the statistics. Senator John Crown’s analogy of the firefighter and the child in a car is very stark. I was ridiculed for opposing the smoking ban when it was introduced and I am more than prepared to admit how wrong I was and how important was that legislation. With so many others, I have benefited from it by being able to give up smoking. We must constantly look to do more. The Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Róisín Shortall, who is also welcome have mentioned how some hospitals do not allow smoking on entire campuses. This is a good initiative that could be mimicked by various employer groups. We could lead by example in these Houses. Although I am sure the smokers among us would not welcome it, they would not mind a short walk to the gate rather than smoking on the Leinster House campus and in Government Buildings. We could do worse than mirror the actions of the HSE in that context. On behalf of the group of which I am a member, I congratulate Senators Mark Daly, John Crown and Jillian van Turnhout and commend the Government for accepting the Bill. I hope that, unlike other good legislative proposals, legislation such as this, even with the name of a Fianna Fáil Senator attached, will be accepted in the way this Bill has been, allowing various Members to make suggestions on Committee Stage.

Senator Imelda Henry: I wish to share time with Senator Catherine Noone.

Acting Chairman (Senator Paschal Mooney): Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Imelda Henry: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Róisín Shortall, and the Minister, Deputy James Reilly, for taking the time to be with us today. I welcome this Private Members’ Bill and commend the Senators who brought it forward. Senator John Crown has significant expertise in the area, especially on the effects of smoking on health from a cancer perspective. We are very lucky to have him in the House. 279 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator Imelda Henry.]

As Senator John Gilroy mentioned, we know environmental tobacco smoke contains more than 4,000 substances, several of which are known to cause cancer in humans. They can cause lung cancer in adults who do not smoke and increases heart disease rates. Children are particularly vulnerable to the effects of passive smoking because they are still developing physically, have higher breathing rates than adults and little control over their indoor environment. Chil- dren exposed to high doses of passive smoking such as those whose mothers smoke run the greatest risk of experiencing damaging health effects such as asthma, sudden infant death syndrome, pneumonia, bronchitis and middle ear infections. Children whose parents smoke are also more likely to become smokers themselves. With regard to parents who smoke while driving, the concentration of second-hand smoke in such vehicles can reach very high levels. Making vehicles smoke-free would reduce children’s exposure to second-hand smoke. Parents want nothing but the best for their children and many parents make great sacrifices for their children’s benefit. If parents knew how harmful second- hand smoke was to children, most would take steps to protect them. Educational efforts can play a crucial role in helping parents to understand why they need to protect their children from this health hazard and how to do so effectively. Paediatricians are especially well positioned to influence parents on this issue. As a result of the high levels of exposure in vehicles to second-hand smoke among young children and the health problems they experience as a result, this should be considered to be a significant medical issue. I am delighted to hear Fingal County Council plans to have playgrounds, parks and public areas smoke-free. Every local authority should take such an initiative. There is no safe level of exposure, unless it is a smoke-free environment. I am also glad to hear from the Minister that a review is under way to identify further policy proposals that could be introduced aimed at reducing the prevalence of smoking in Ireland.

Senator Catherine Noone: I congratulate Senators John Crown, Mark Daly and Jillian van Turnhout on introducing this Bill. It is a good idea that I firmly favour. I do not wish to repeat what other Senators have said, but the evidence, both in quality and volume, is clear that passive smoking poses an immediate danger to both adults and children. One aspect that concerned me during the public debate was the emergence of a pro-smoking lobby in Ireland. Forest Ireland holds an absurd abstract notion that the rights and freedoms of smokers are somehow sacrosanct and above those of non-smokers. Cultural acceptance of an immoral industry which uses lobby groups and public affairs firms in Ireland should be stopped. The organisation seeks to infiltrate the Irish media and influence commentary on the industry, while advocating alternative viewpoints, with funding given to it by smoking lobbyists in the United Kingdom. It is a disgrace. The Bill is visionary, much like the ban on smoking in workplaces such as pubs. The evidence on the effects of passive smoking can be stacked up, with a certain amount of deaths attribu- table to the effects of second-hand smoke. I am certain the public health advantages far out- weigh the argument of the restriction on perceived personal liberties. Passive smoking poses a significant danger, both in the short and medium term. According to the World Health Organiz- ation, some 40% of all children are exposed to second-hand smoke at home, with young children exposed to second-hand smoke at home being up to twice as likely to start smoking as those not so exposed. Children are especially vulnerable to the effects of second-hand smoke, in respect of which Senator John Crown has given us details. As a result, asthma and lung infections are more common in children who grew up around smokers. Senator Colm Burke mentioned section 3(2)(i). Perhaps the age limit of 18 years could be reduced to cater for 17 year old drivers. 280 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

I join other speakers in making the point that this legislation shows how effective the Seanad can be. I commend the Bill to the House.

Senator David Cullinane: I commend the Senators involved, especially Senator John Crown, for bringing forward this important Bill. My party supports the motivation behind it. The smoking ban has been a great success and, undoubtedly, improved public health and our living environment. The Bill seeks to extend it. We have a number of difficulties with parts of it which must be teased out. We share some of the concerns expressed by the Minister, an example being the issue of enforcement. It is appropriate that the Bill be supported in order that we can tease out the issues raised on Committee Stage. The Minister has stated we need enforceable and strong legislation, for which there will be cross-party support. The Bill provides an opportunity to address some of the issues surrounding smoking. Progress has been made in recent years in this regard, especially with the smoking ban. Studies have shown the benefits, both for workers in indoor areas and the general public. However, smoking is still too prevalent. We, therefore, need effective legislative measures and enforcement to curb smoking and stamp out the selling of cigarettes to minors. In 2009 a survey undertaken by the Office of Tobacco Control showed that 40% of shop retailers and 63% of licensed premises were willing to sell cigarettes to minors. Legislative measures have been introduced to address this issue and more are being contemplated. Young people are continuing to start smoking in large numbers. A study undertaken by Dr. Alan Moran in Drogheda considered the issues of peer — parent and sibling — pressure and the reasons teenagers stopped smoking. Dr. Moran surveyed pupils in three main secondary schools in the north east and the results indicated that if a sibling smoked, an adolescent was 3.5 times more likely to smoke. If a best friend smoked, an adolescent was 11.5 times more likely to smoke. Of the boys surveyed, some 75% reported they enjoyed smoking. However, 80% reported they had made an attempt to stop smoking, while 70% wanted to stop. Some 34% had begun to smoke because of stress, 15% to “feel cool”, 11% to gain confidence, 10% for enjoyment, 9% because of an addiction and 3.3% because friends smoked. In spite of legislation banning the sale of cigarettes to people under the age of 16, all the adolescent smokers surveyed for the study stated they were able to buy cigarettes in licensed premises and shops. Clearly there is a need to ensure the number of young people who take up smoking is minimised as much as possible. Smoking in cars in which there are children is irresponsible and makes smoking seem normal and acceptable. Clearly it is not. The title of the legislation says it all — Protection of Children’s Health from Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012 — which is essentially what we want to do. We have a difficulty with aspects of the Bill and are concerned about its enforcement. It is a bit different from what we were trying to do before and what we have done. It may be more problematic to ban smoking in private cars, but it is not impossible. We believe we must get the legislation right. We are reassured by the Minister who said he is of that mind. Many older people who smoked are experiencing all the damaging consequences of smoking. The cost in terms of population health and the drain on the scarce resources of the public health service is substantial. The campaign to reduce smoking and to work towards a smoke free society is very important and needs to be maintained and expanded. I take this opportunity to comment on the price of tobacco. Action on Smoking and Health, ASH, Ireland expressed its disappointment that the Minister for Finance did not increase the price of tobacco sufficiently in the budget. Price is recognised by the World Health Organiz- ation and others as the most important way of encouraging smokers to quit and discouraging young people from experimenting with tobacco. The Government, however, expressed the view 281 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator David Cullinane.] that such price increases might encourage tobacco smuggling. That is an inadequate and evasive response. I call on the Government to consider such measures for inclusion in the next budget. We support the passage of this Bill. I thank the Senators who tabled it, especially Senator Crown, whose knowledge and experience gives it clout. I have asked him on several occasions, which perhaps he will, to arrange a briefing for Oireachtas Members on cancer care. Great strides are being made internationally in cancer research and treatment. All parties must work with the Minister to ensure this Bill becomes enforceable and robust legislation.

Senator Aideen Hayden: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Shortall to the House. I wish to focus on some of the comments made by the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly. Young people think they are invincible. Telling them about the ill effects of smoking in the years to come does not cut water when one is 12 years, or even 16 or 17 years. I came across research which showed that more American children under the age of 12 years knew of Joe Camel than knew who was President of the United States. I agree with Senator Cullinane that the price of cigarettes is an important factor. They remain too cheap. When one compares the price of a packet of cigarettes with the price of alcohol, price is still an issue. Product placement is very important. When one looks at the programmes young people watch, which are an influence, one sees a significant number of young people smoking in them. That needs to be addressed. The Minister made the point that in spite of the smoking ban, young people are continuing to smoke, and I know the Minister of State is concerned that young women smoke because they understand it will help their weight control. I can remember watching Bette Davis and Claude Rains in “An Affair to Remember” sitting on the deck of a liner when he lit his cigarette and romantically passed it to her and they shared it, gazing out over the ocean in a deep and meaningful way. We all realise now that smoking is not good and that second-hand smoke is also at issue. Parents love their children. Those who smoke love their children, but if one told them to compare the significant damage their habit is doing with depriving a child of food, clothing and education, they would agree they would not do it. We must then ask why smoking in cars when children are present is still an issue. One of the difficulties I have with the Protection of Children’s Health from Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012, although I am supportive of it, is that it is based on the premise of the Public Health (Tobacco) Act 2002. A survey of AA members shows that 85% said that smoking should be banned in cars with child passengers. People were not so clear cut when asked if people should smoke in cars when on their own. As a body the AA claims to be neutral and is not concerned because it takes the view that road safety legislation should not be used to enforce a ban on smoking in cars. I find that difficult to comprehend. I gave up smoking 15 years ago. I can remember to this day, groping around in my handbag for a packet of cigarettes or a lighter, not to mention the difficulties of setting my car on fire because my ashtray was overflowing. There is case law in Germany that shows that smoking in cars has been the cause of serious accidents. I admit that I would prefer if the legislation went further and banned smoking in cars altogether. Should we consider the death of child with chronic asthma because of the effects of smoking in cars in the same way as a child dying from any other road safety incident? I find it difficult to understand that under road traffic legislation a person is banned from using a hand-held mobile phone in a car but not from smoking a cigarette. I think the Bill would be far more robust if it was being dealt with under road traffic legislation. This Bill is grounded on legislation relating to the workplace, as the Minister pointed out, but most of the offenders will be families. An offence under the Bill may be brought or prosecuted by a member of the Garda Síochána. In reality many of the cases will be taken by family 282 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage members. For the sake of argument, a parent who wishes to complain about another parent or a child whose health has been damaged by smoking in the car can bring a case. While I am in favour of the spirit of the Bill, much remains to be done in amending its provisions on once- off and continuing offences and the imposition of fines. This is an excellent initiative and I congratulate all the Senators involved in bringing it forward. I do not honestly believe parents wish to harm their children when driving them in their cars. Legislation is the stick, but a robust public information campaign on the dangers of smoking in confined spaces with children is a carrot that merits funding. It could be funded from the excise duties which the State generates from the sale of cigarettes.

Senator Cáit Keane: I compliment Senator Crown et al on introducing the Bill and the Mini- ster on his stance. He has spoken widely on this issue. Despite the significant tobacco control measures that have been established to date and the widespread knowledge of the harm they cause, as the Minister of State said, smoking rates are still not decreasing. Senator Crown gave details of the confined space in a car. More has to be done about educating people in general, in particular about the dangers of smoking in cars. Protecting our children from harmful smoke must be the utmost priority of any public health policy on tobacco control. A lot has been said about the dangers of smoking and health. The Minister is speaking to the converted. Since he came into office in the past year he has progressed issues on smoking regulations and the obligations of tobacco manufacturers to put graphic pictures on cigarette packets. There was an increase in excise duty. Such measures affect adults. This measure will speak for voiceless children. Electronic cigarettes are not covered by this measure. They are banned in certain countries. A study was done in America on 19 brands of electronic cigarettes. Most have vaporised nicotine. Brazil, Hong Kong, Saudi Arabia and Thailand have banned them. They did not ban them for no reason. I would like the Minister to consider banning them. It would be very easy for somebody to take out an electronic cigarette and stub a real cigarette out. They look exactly like a normal cigarette. If a garda came to the window of a car the driver could argue he or she was smoking an electronic cigarette in the car which has the same scent as a normal cigarette. Enforcement of the measure will be difficult as long as such products are on the market in Ireland. Other countries have done research. Electronic cigarettes were introduced about eight years ago. They are peddled on Ryanair flights which gives a bad example to children. We are discussing banning smoking in cars because of the example it gives to children. As electronic cigarettes look exactly like normal ones it defeats the purpose of the measure. 5o’clock More education should be available on such cigarettes. The Food and Drug Administration in the United States and Health Canada 2009 did surveys on them and advised against their use. They are relatively new in the Irish context, therefore few studies are available. I ask that the issue be considered in terms of enforcement and health. The Minister of State mentioned the work done by Fingal County Council, which I commend. South Dublin County Council is introducing local policies under local regulations for parks. Mr. Brian Sheehan is investigating the matter and following up on it. According to the HSBC 2010, 12% of ten to 17 year old children smoke, which is very young. While we are considering banning adults from smoking in a household where children are present we should also consider banning children from smoking in cars where adults are present. If a ten year old child smokes a parent can say he or she was driving and not smoking. We need to work on this serious issue.

283 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator Cáit Keane.]

Senator Hayden made a good point. The use of mobile phones is banned in cars. There are no hands-free cigarettes, unlike hands-free phones. Until such time as they are introduced we should consider an outright ban on cigarettes in cars.

Senator Paschal Mooney: I rise primarily to commend my good friend and colleague, Senator Crown, the Acting Chairman and Senator Daly for their initiative in this regard. I compliment Senator Crown for an initiative he raised in the House which showed its value and effectiveness. He managed to single-handedly move one of the great ships of State, the Department of Health, to accept his premise that new high-class state-of-the-art cancer drugs should be made available to those who need them most, having argued very cogently in this regard. Senator Cullinane’s remarks are perhaps the best way of reflecting the enormous contribution Senator Crown makes to the House and the expertise he provides to those of us who are not aware of the nuances of health. The initiative will save lives. I do not think there is any higher calling than somebody who takes an initiative such as this. The end result is that its acceptance by the Government and Department of Health will mean some lives will be saved. It is a wonderful achievement and legacy. As the Minister of State and Senators have outlined, this is also about the protection and saving of lives. Despite the technicalities of legislation and the fact the legislative process will probably change the Bill to make it more technically acceptable, the original premise will remain. It will ban smoking in cars and ultimately save lives. I agree with Senators Keane and Hayden that this measure could have been introduced under road traffic legislation. Section 4 refers to the authorised officer as being a member of An Garda Síochána which would suggest that when the Bill becomes law it will permit a garda to enforce the law in the same way he or she would enforce any other road traffic violations. It is a moot point. I have no doubt that, as the Minister of State indicated, the Bill in its original form will be changed to some degree. I am sure the sponsors of the Bill, like the rest of us, will await that with great interest. I want to focus on one point, namely, a significant public information campaign. I and my wife, Sheila, have been blessed with five children. None of us smoke, except our eldest boy who is now 21 years of age. He went to a boarding college, which I will not name, when he was 12 years of age because he wanted to. He did not like it and I am not sure if it liked him but after less than a year he went back to his local school where he proved to be quite happy. He said, and I agree with him, that the only thing he learned during his ten or 11 months in boarding college was how to smoke. The reason for that was there was very little to do for most of the day. A declining number of males and females attend boarding colleges but they are still in existence. It is a sad reflection that the one thing he took from it was that peer pressure was put on him to smoke. He was hanging around for a large part of the day and had little else to do. The teaching staff of such schools have a responsibility in this regard. They are good in many other areas but perhaps this issue slips under the radar. All of us who went through the school system know people went outside to smoke. I do not want to bore the House by saying where I used to smoke. I was not in a boarding college; I attended a day school. When the Bill is passed perhaps there could be interaction with schools. I do not think scare tactics necessarily work with young people. Senator Daly and others referred to the stark statistics on smoking and the end result. I do not think that necessarily scares young people. One of our colleagues referred to the fact that young people see themselves as being inviolate and that life goes on for ever and a day. There is not much point in telling them otherwise. When I say to my son that if he continues to smoke, he will have health problems when he reaches his 40s, he just shrugs his shoulders. His generation does not relate to health warnings so there must be another way to convey the message. Perhaps the 284 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Róisín Shortall, who was present, can help. I also welcome another Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, who is attempting to diminish the impact of the abuse of another drug, which is drink. Perhaps she will examine the area of smoking and not only when the legislation is passed. Can we have a more information-based environment to help deliver the message to young people? Many years ago there were public information campaigns on television. I remember, as a youngster, that people living in the Border counties were fortunate to receive all the British stations long before they were available in Dublin and along the east coast. My part of the country was looked on as being deprived but we received British television when I was a child. There were many series of information advertisements but, ironically, I recently read that the department in England responsible has been wound up because it is a quango that is surplus to requirements, with the function being farmed out somewhere else. I do not see many television campaigns, especially in the public health area, on our screens. Perhaps the Minister for Health might examine the possibility and I am sure Senator Crown has a view too because of his profession. I commend the Bill, as all sides of the House have done. It is a wonderful acknowledgement of the work carried out by focused Senators and I wish it well in its passage into law.

Senator Marie Moloney: I, too, welcome the Minister of State to the House. Today, three Ministers from the Department of Health came here to debate the Bill and it shows the importance they place on it. They did not send anyone else. Everyone present agrees we have a duty of care to our citizens and that duty is all the greater to citizens who do not have a voice, our children. Choosing to smoke and destroying one’s health is a matter for each individual. There has been enough publicity of the dangers of smoking to deter everybody for life. Unfortunately and unwisely, some choose to ignore the dangers due to addiction, pure foolhardiness or that it is a cool thing to do. Adults choose to smoke for whatever reason and it is their choice, but passive smoking has a profound and serious adverse health effect on the people around them. The majority of children do not choose to be exposed to tobacco smoke. Children’s exposure is involuntary and arises from smoking, mainly by adults, in the places where children live, work and play. Given that 1 billion adults smoke worldwide, the World Health Organization estimates that around 700 million, or almost half the world’s children, breathe air polluted by tobacco smoke and it mostly occurs when children inhale smoke in vehicles being driven by their parents or another adult. As some Senators mentioned their children, I will mention mine. My son was about four years old and he was in his grandad’s car. His grandad had an awful habit of smoking in his car and his family was too polite to tell him to stop. However, it was a case of out of the mouth of babes, and my son said to him: “Grandad, please do not smoke in the car anymore.” Of course, the rest of my family were shocked and horrified that he dared to say it, but his grandad never smoked in his car again. Today my son is a general practitioner and he has retained his hatred of smoking. Perhaps he was wise beyond his years and knew smoking was bad. Let us call a spade a spade. There is no safe level of exposure to tobacco smoke. The dangers of being exposed to second-hand smoke are well established. Passive smoking is a real and substantial threat to children’s health. Exposure to tobacco smoke causes a wide variety of adverse health effects in children which I will not repeat because people identified them previously and we all know them. Opening a window does not reduce the levels of second-hand smoke in a car to a safe level because the smoke blows back into the vehicle and often lingers for hours. Given that children have higher metabolic and respiratory rates than adults, exposure to second-hand smoke in vehicles is a potentially serious problem. The smoke emitted from 285 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator Marie Moloney.] the tip of a cigarette has almost double the concentration of nicotine and tar as the smoke inhaled by the smoker. I welcome the Bill as I am opposed to children being exposed to tobacco smoke. I am and have always been a non-smoker. Several of my friends smoke and none of them ever smokes in their house as they have children. Even my friends who do not have children will go outside for a puff. The best thing that ever happened in the country was the ban on smoking in the workplace because it focused people’s minds and made them aware of the dangers of passive smoking. Hence most people go outside to smoke. I feel very strongly about pregnant women being exposed to second-hand smoke. Most pregnant women will not smoke during pregnancy and they should not be exposed to someone else’s smoke. Not only can passive smoking harm the foetus but also it can reduce a woman’s chance of getting pregnant in the first place. Passive smoking is also a recognised factor in lowering the birth weight of babies. I also feel strongly about the environmental damage being caused by smoking in cars where cigarette ash and cigarette butts are flung willy-nilly out of windows without a care being given to where they land or the damage done to the environment. I know, and have spoken to a lady, who, while pushing her baby in a pram, saw a cigarette butt fly out of a car window and land in her pram. Luckily she saw it and took it out of her pram and threw it away. If she had not been vigilant the baby’s blanket could have caught fire or, if it had landed on her child’s skin, it could have led to a serious burn. If we ban smoking in cars that carry children, the danger posed by the discarding of cigarettes will come to an end. My colleague, Senator Hayden, has mentioned the danger posed by trying to light a cigarette on the move or by rooting in a bag for one. I agree with her comments and I was going to raise the same issue. The use of hand-held mobile phones has been banned in cars, yet a person can still root in a bag for a cigarette packet, take a cigarette out, find a lighter to light it and still hold it in their hand as they drive. Tobacco smoke is a serious source of air pollutant, whether indoor or outdoor, contributes to a noxious environment and unpleasant odour, and causes adverse health effects. I support the call for taking strong and immediate action to ensure our children can grow up in an environment where their health is not compromised by being forced to inhale the smoke produced by others. Preventing exposure to tobacco smoke will lead to the improved well-being of children, adolescents and, ultimately, adult health. It will result in reduced mortality and substantial savings in health care and other direct costs. I add my voice to the congratulations expressed to Senators Crown, Daly and the Acting Chairman on bringing forward the Bill. I know Senator Crown has drawn from his expertise and experience. Anything he suggests is for the well-being of children and deserves our support. I congratulate them all and I am delighted the Ministers have decided to accept the Bill. I know it will benefit the children of this country.

Senator Terry Brennan: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit ar ais go dtí an tSeanaid. I commend, as all previous speakers have done, Senators Crown, van Turnhout and Daly on their great, short Bill that will greatly benefit the country. The threat that passive smoking poses to health has been eloquently stated by my colleague, Senator Crown, and the danger to children’s health as they sit in smoke-filled cars has been highlighted and I will not reiterate it. I was reared in a smoke-filled house because my parents chain smoked. Senator Crown mentioned the possible risk of meningitis. My mother died when she was 29 years old and she 286 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage was a chain smoker but my father lived until he was 92 years. My younger brother was two and a half years old when he died of meningitis and perhaps a smoking environment contributed to his death. Previous speakers said they smoked at some stage of their lives but for some reason I never tried to smoke. I have other habits, but I do not intend to tell the House what they are. At times, they can be——

Senator John Crown: I do not intend to ban them.

Senator Terry Brennan: That was going to be my next statement.

Senator Sean D. Barrett: Not in cars anyway.

Senator Terry Brennan: The Bill will make adults more aware of the dangers of smoking in confined places such as cars, jeeps and similar vehicles. There are environmental issues to be considered also. As a Tidy Towns activist, nothing annoys me more than seeing our streets littered with cigarette butts. The problem is not confined to areas outside licensed premises. The last thing many people do before entering a shop — be it a butcher’s shop or a supermar- ket, for example — is drop a cigarette on the ground, stamp on it and abandon it. I commend and support this draft Bill and encourage the Minister to take it to the next legislative stage as quickly as possible. Previous speakers have mentioned that, as legislators, we are obliged to protect the health of the children of the country who often do not have a voice of their own or a voice to speak for them. I commend my colleagues, Senators John Crown, Jillian van Turnhout and Mark Daly, for introducing this legislation which I encourage the Minister to bring to the next stage.

Senator John Crown: I express my overwhelming sense of gratitude to my Seanad colleagues for their support for this legislation. In particular, I thank Senators Jillian van Turnhout and Mark Daly for helping to draft it and bring it to this stage. I thank the Seanad for the quality of the debate, the high level of information provided and the attention given to it. I also thank the parliamentary parties. I am aware that they discussed the legislation during their meetings and I am grateful to them for deciding to advance it. I thank the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, the Ministers of State and the Government as a whole for the extraordinary spirit of co-operation they have demonstrated in advancing the legislation. I am new to this process. It had been suggested to me that when ideas which were perceived as being good were advanced into the halls of the Oireachtas by Deputies or Senators not members of a Govern- ment party, it was sometimes the case that lip service was paid to the quality of the legislation before the Government promised to introduce something better. I am grateful, therefore, that this legislation has received such support. That will help the Bill to be passed more quickly, expeditiously and smoothly. I am tremendously sorry that I did not bring my mother here today, as I do not think she believes I am as successful in life as some of my colleagues think I am. It would have been nice for her to have heard the many nice things being said. Given that historically I have not had the closest of relationships with those who have held the position of Minister for Health, it is very inspiring for me that three ministerial representatives of the Department of Health came to the House to support the Bill this evening. I acknowledge that this initiative is not wholly our idea. Others have suggested it. The Mini- ster has mentioned that ASH Ireland took up the cause a number of years ago and I am grateful that it is represented in the Visitors Gallery tonight. The Irish Cancer Society has also been very supportive of general anti-smoking initiatives. The main advantage of the approach 287 Protection of Children’s Health from 9 May 2012. Tobacco Smoke Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator John Crown.] being taken by my colleagues and me is that we have a foot in the halls of power and are in a position to give these good ideas a little entrée into the legislative process. If this simple, stand- alone Bill is passed in its current form or in some version of its current form that contains necessary legal adjustments to make it applicable, enforceable and compliant with existing legislation, it will make a difference. If the Bill, as it stands, is substantially passed, without anything else being done, it will make a real difference to the lives of children, those who are alive now and who will be born in the future. It must be acknowledged that the tobacco industry has a track record of opposing any legislation that appears to roll back the “rights of smokers”. I recommend to all my colleagues that they read an interesting book, The Emperor of All Maladies, which is a history of the war on cancer. It sets out the extraordinary lengths to which the tobacco industry went when the simple and obvious discoveries made at an early stage made it apparent that smokers were more likely to develop lung cancer. The industry’s efforts to try to prove this was not the case continued until the last decade. That leads me to believe substantial attempts will be made to confuse some of the issues raised in this simple Bill with some of the larger and more ambitious legislative programmes being proposed. I emphasise that I will support the broader legislative proposals coming down the line in an attempt to further diminish the scourge of smoking in our society. I will be extremely supportive of attempts by the Minister for Health and his ministerial colleagues to introduce further legislation in this regard. The Bill before the House stands on its own as a simple, small legislative attempt to make a difference. Perhaps I will acquire more expertise on the European technical standards directive, the existence of which I was not aware of until it was mentioned by the Minister. My colleague, Mr. Shane Kenneally, and his colleagues who work for Senators Mark Daly and Jillian van Turnhout have done wonderful work to advance the legislative process. We are all available at short notice to meet any of the officials who would like this matter to be advanced quickly. We are continuing to work to the goal of having the Bill signed into law before the end of the current Oireachtas term in order that children can go on their holidays this summer in cars free from the scourge of smoking. We will support amendments that are necessary, as long as the core central component of the Bill is maintained. In other words, the legislation will have to continue to ensure a child, defined as someone who has not yet reached his or her 18th birthday, will not under any circumstances be exposed to tobacco smoke in a car, regardless of who is driving and even if he or she is the driver. I remind the House that a child should not be allowed to purchase cigarettes until his or her 18th birthday. I thank the Minister of State for sitting through this part of the debate. I ask her to pass on my gratitude to her ministerial colleagues. I thank everybody who was in attendance for the debate and hope the legislation will be advanced quickly.

Question put and agreed to.

Acting Chairman (Senator Jillian van Turnhout): When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Senator John Crown: In view of the Minister’s statement about the need to engage in consultation and consider the European technical standards directive, we propose that Committee Stage be taken on Wednesday, 6 June. That will be D-Day.

Acting Chairman (Senator Jillian van Turnhout): Is that agreed? Agreed. Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 6 June 2012. 288 Property 9 May 2012. Tax

Acting Chairman (Senator Jillian van Turnhout): When is it proposed to sit again?

Senator Ivana Bacik: At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

Adjournment Matters

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Property Tax Senator John Kelly: I welcome the Minister to the House and thank him for his recent visit to Ballaghaderreen. He was well received by the Western Development Commission. When one is the bearer of good news, one is much appreciated. I thank the Minister for visiting the fire station and recognising the memorial on display for the firemen who died in the events of 11 September 2001. The issue I want to discuss concerns the non-principal private residence charge, introduced by the last Government. When it was introduced, it was not meant to cover circumstances it is covering at present. There are thousands of small shops, businesses and pubs throughout the country whose owners were led to believe in 2009 that if they paid rates, they would not have to pay the second home property tax. Since the recent debate on the household charge, many shop owners and small businesses have been asking questions, on foot of their uncertainty, as to whether they are liable for the €200 charge. When they made contact with the local authorities, they were told they do not owe €800 but as much as €2,200 because of the accumulation of interest and penalties. In most cases, the people affected are shopowners who have built a house in the country and who have paid the property charge on that house. All they are left with is unused overhead accommodation. I have no issue with cases where overhead accommodation has been converted to apartments and flats that are being rented out. One should be liable in that instance. In many cases, however, the premises are just disused accommodation. Naturally, it cannot be rateable property because most businesses are already stretched paying rates for the downstairs parts of the buildings. People certainly cannot afford to have the whole property attracting rates. In most of these cases, access to the overhead accommodation is through the shop. How such a property can be considered a second property has me baffled. In many cases, most of the owners cannot afford to do up the properties to rent them. Many may reluctantly pay the second home property tax, bearing in mind that they never believed they were liable in the first instance. I ask for an amnesty in respect of the interest and penalties for those who did not realise they were liable in the first place. I am not asking for an amnesty for those who simply will not pay. There are many genuine cases, however. In 2009 and 2010, county council staff were not always sufficiently educated on the second home property tax. In many cases, they told business people such as those I described that they were not liable. Naturally enough, they did not pay as a consequence. I am familiar with one such case, that of a publican who lives in the country some two miles from her pub. I brought this matter to her attention during the week and she could not believe what I was suggesting. Could the Minister not give control back to county councils such that they could account for genuine cases where people did not realise they were liable for the charge? The councils, in such cases, could collect the €800, which is vital, as opposed to expecting people to pay €2,200, which they simply do not have and will not pay. Will the Minister organise an amnesty in this case? I ask him to amend the legislation to account for ratepayers. At present, there is no exemption for ratepayers listed. It was never meant to be the case that the scenario I describe would arise. The Minister is a fair man and I expect him to give me a fair response. 289 Property 9 May 2012. Tax

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan): I thank the Senator for raising this important matter for debate. The Local Government (Charges) Act 2009, as amended, broadened the revenue base of local authorities by introducing a charge on non-principal private residences. The charge is set at €200 and liability for it falls, in the main, on owners of rental, holiday and vacant properties. The charge on non- principal private residences, since its introduction in 2009, has contributed €218 million to the financing of vital local authority services, including fire and emergency services, planning and development services, the maintenance and cleaning of streets, street lighting, public parks, libraries, open spaces and leisure facilities. There is no obligation on local authorities to issue notifications or invoices regarding the charge. It involves self-assessment. Nationwide advertising has taken place each year since the introduction of the charge in 2009 to ensure general awareness of the charge and the liability dates, and this has been successful. In tandem, local authorities have undertaken their own advertising campaigns locally. Communications have also been issued to persons who paid the charge in respect of previous years reminding them of their possible liability for the charge. Significant efforts are being made to ensure property owners are aware of the charge and the liability dates. However, the charge is based on self-assessment principles and it is a matter for persons with a liability to pay the charge by the due date to avoid late payment fees. Payment of the charge within the three month period ending on 30 June discharges the liability to the charge and ensures late payment fees do not arise. The Act places the charge on non-principal private residences under the care and management of the local authorities, and its application in particular circumstances is a matter for the relevant local authority. Interpretation of the legislation is a matter for legal advice in individual cases and ultimately a matter for the courts. This is not what Senator Kelly is contemplating. I have no proposals to provide an amnesty from payment of the non-principal private residence charge. I issued guidelines to local authorities on 14 March on the operation of the care and management provisions of the Local Government (Charges) Act 2009 in the context of individual situations where genuine hardship in having to discharge a liability in a single payment can be demonstrated. In such cases the guidelines are set out and the modality has been agreed for local authorities to enter into payment arrangements for the discharge of outstanding liabilities in instalments over a specified period of time. The local authorities already have information that can stop the clock on the payment of interest and fees. A person can pay the original amount and enter into an arrangement to pay the remainder by instalments. Each county and city manager has been asked to do this in as simple a format as possible. Providing clarity regarding liability for the second home charge is ultimately a matter for the local authority manager. The Act is specific in putting the onus for care and management on the local authority manager to allow discretion where there are genuine cases. If the property is not habitable, there is no liability, but this must be proved to the satisfaction of the local authority manager. I ask the Senator if he is aware of genuine cases to discuss them with the local authority manager. There is also flexibility in the payment arrangements, but I am not in a position to grant an amnesty.

Senator John Kelly: I appreciate the Minister’s efforts on 14 March to make things a little easier for people. In fairness, I would not have thought many of the people who find themselves in this position would know this facility was available to them and I would be glad to announce it. I would like the Minister, however, to consider an amendment to the legislation in the longer term. The property being habitable is the core of the issue. It might be habitable if an investment was made. In the case of the small shop, where the accommodation cannot be accessed unless a person goes through the shop, it could be considered habitable. 290 Leibhéal Foirne 9 May 2012. Scoileanna

Deputy Phil Hogan: For the purposes of the owner.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Brennan): We cannot rehearse the debate.

Senator John Kelly: My point is that it cannot be considered to be a second property for rental purposes because it cannot be accessed without going through the shop. I know the Minister is a fair man and that this is a common-sense issue, but the Government would be doing itself a favour in cleaning up another mess left by the last Government. I appreciate the response and thank the Minister for his efforts so far. Perhaps we might revisit the issue on another day.

Deputy Phil Hogan: In the case mentioned it could be interpreted that the property is not habitable on the basis that access is only possible with the assistance of the owner of the property who happens to be a shopkeeper. If that information was brought to the attention of the local manager, the case could be made. Local authority managers are fair-minded people and if a genuine case is made, I am sure they will look at it in keeping with the spirit of the legislation. All of the anomalies will not be resolved until we have a fully fledged property tax regime in place in 2013. I am not in a position to solve these difficulties in 2012 and must leave it in the care and management of the local authority manager to exercise common sense in dealing with genuine cases.

Leibhéal Foirne Scoileanna Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Táimid ag leanúint leis an téama céanna a bhí againn an tseachtain seo caite agus tá mé thar a bheith buíoch don Aire Stáit as ucht teacht isteach. Táimid fós ag caint faoi na scoileanna beaga tuaithe agus an próiseas achomhairc a bhí ann mar gheall gur athraíodh na huimhreacha sa cháinfhaisnéis. Tá roinnt scoileanna tar éis iarraidh orm an cheist seo a chur maidir leis an gcoiste achomhairc a bhí i bhfeidhm. Tuigim gur coiste neamhspleáchabhí i gceist ón fhreagra a thug an tAire Stáit féin dom an tseachtain seo caite. Chuir mé ceist faoin iarratas ar an achomharc a dhéanamh trí mheán na Gaeilge. Theastaíonn ó roinnt scoileanna fáil amach cé atá ar an gcoiste agus an bhfuil Gaeilge acu chun na hachom- hairc a cuireadh isteach a léamh agus a thuiscint nó an é gur aistríodh go Béarla iad? Ní raibh sin soiléir. Bhí míshástacht i measc cuid de na scoileanna a chuir isteach litreacha i nGaeilge mar fuair siad freagraí imBéarla ón Roinn. Níl sin sásúil d’aon duine. Sá chás áirithe a chonaic mé féin, bhí cuid den iarratas i mBéarla chomh maith so b’fhéidir gurb é sin an fáth, gur úsáid siad an leithscéal sin. I ask the Minister of State to make a statement on the committee which has undertaken the review process which is independent of the Department and its capacity to do its work through the medium of Irish and whether the review documents submitted by the schools in question were translated in order that those sitting on the board could understand their contents.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon): Tá mé ag tógáil an ghnó seo thar ceann mo chomhghleacaí, an tAire Oideachais agus Scileanna. I thank the Senator for giving me the opportunity to talk about the staffing appeals process for primary schools. The key factor for determining the level of staffing resources provided at individual school level is the staffing schedule for the relevant school year and pupil enrolments on 30 September. The staffing arrangements in schools for the 2012-13 school year can also be affected by changes in enrolment, the impact of budget measures and the reforms to the teacher allocation process. The reform of the allocation process is designed to bring about a more 291 School 9 May 2012. Transport

[Deputy Ciarán Cannon.] equitable distribution of existing posts between schools; therefore, there will inevitably be some schools that will lose posts and some that will gain posts. The staffing schedule for the 2012-13 school year was published on the Department’s website and includes an appeals mechanism for schools to submit an appeal under certain criteria to an independent appeals board. Details of the criteria for appeals are contained in Department Staffing Circular 0007/2012. As part of the new staffing arrangements, the Department has expanded the existing appeals process in order that it is accessible to the small primary schools that are losing a classroom post as a result of the budget measure and enable some limited phasing arrangements for schools where the combination of budget and reform measures impact in a particularly adverse manner on a school’s overall allocation. All appeals submitted to the primary staffing appeals board, including those in Irish, were considered in accordance with the published appeals criteria. This was done at its meeting on 18 and 19 April. Two members of the appeals board are former school principals, while one member is a former inspector. Each of these three members has competency in Irish on the basis of his or her qualifications and experience in primary schools. In advance of appeals board meetings, the Department also arranges for appeals forms submitted in Irish to be translated into English. The board operates indepen- dently of the Department and its decision is final. A total of 367 schools submitted appeals to the appeals board and 205 schools had their appeals upheld. A summary outcome of the appeals has been published on the Department’s website and individual schools have been notified of the outcome of their appeals. The next meeting of staffing appeals board is due to be held on 14 June. The latest date for other schools to submit appeals is 1 June. The final staffing position for all schools will ultimately not be known until the autumn. At that stage the allocation process will be fully completed and all appeals to the staffing appeals board will have been considered.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Is mór an faoiseamh é a chloisteáil go bhfuil triúrdena daoine a bhí ar an gcoiste líofa sa Ghaeilge. An féidir leis an Aire Stáit tuairim a thabhairt maidir le líon na n-iarratas a bhí trí Ghaeilge agus cé mhéad acu a aistríodh? Is there any indication how many of the 367 school submitted appeals as Gaeilge and how many had to be translated?

Deputy Ciarán Cannon: I do not have the figure to hand but if the Senator wishes to e-mail me, I will endeavour to discover the information.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Go raibh maith agat.

School Transport Senator Martin Conway: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Ciarán Cannon, to the House. Some weeks ago a group of students from Killaloe visited Leinster House on their own initiative. While such groups are often invited by Members and other public representatives to visit the Houses of the Oireachtas, these children took it upon themselves to write to the Superintendent requesting a tour. During my meeting with them, those from the Clonlara area who are attending St. Anne’s community college in Killaloe expressed concern that the bus service which traditionally brings students from that area to and from Killaloe is to be discon- tinued next year, if not for all students then at least for those commencing at St. Anne’s next September. 292 School 9 May 2012. Transport

Most schools in Limerick city, especially in the Clonlara area, are suffering severe over- crowding. As a consequence, many families send their children to Killaloe, which is quite close to the city, where they have a chance to partake of their education in an uncrowded environment. That practice has been customary in this area of south-east Clare for many years. I ask the Minister of State to be flexible in his assessment of the school transport arrangements in respect of St. Anne’s community college in Killaloe next year and to take into consideration local customs that have continued for many years. The Minister of State is very accommodating in general and always endeavours to find common sense solutions, as I am sure he will do in this case.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon: I thank the Senator for raising this matter. School transport is a very significant operation managed by Bus Éireann on my Department’s behalf and covering more than 82 million km annually. In the region of 113, 000 children, including more than 8,000 with special needs, are transported in approximately 4,000 vehicles every day to primary and post- primary schools throughout the country. The current system for determining eligibility for school transport at post-primary level has been in place for more than 40 years. In 1966, when the Government announced the introduction of free post-primary education, the country was divided for planning purposes into geographic districts, also referred to as catchment areas, each with several primary schools feeding into a post-primary centre with one or more second level schools. The definition of school transport catchment boundaries has been the subject of many submissions and representations to the Department over the years, with a widely held view that the current boundary areas do not reflect changed demographics. Changes in the post-primary school transport scheme were announced in budget 2011. One of these, which will take effect from the commencement of the 2012-13 school year, means the use of the catchment area system as a means of determining school transport eligibility will cease for all pupils newly entering a post-primary school. This change is not being introduced until this September, some 20 months after the budget announcement, to allow parents of children newly entering post- primary school ample time to consider their school choice options, taking account of the revised school eligibility arrangements. From this date, school transport eligibility for all new pupils entering a post-primary school will be determined simply by reference to the distance they reside from their nearest post-primary education centre, having regard to ethos and language. In general, eligible pupils who currently avail of school transport and who meet the distance criterion of 4.8 km will retain their eligibility for the duration of their post-primary education, provided there is no change in their current circumstances. The closing date for receipt of school transport applications for the 2012-2013 school year was Friday, 27 April 2012. Bus Éireann has advised that only three new pupils from the Clon- lara area had applied for school transport to St. Anne’s community college, Killaloe by this deadline. Pupils who are not eligible under the post-primary school transport scheme may apply for transport on a concessionary basis in accordance with the terms of the scheme. To reiterate, the mechanism whereby it will be determined whether children are entitled to a school transport service to a particular school is changing this September. I expect that change to be for the better, there being a reasonable and sensible rationale behind it. It will make the operation of the scheme much more streamlined. The budgetary decision taken in 2011 concluded, on the basis of a value for money report, that it would save the Department money. It will also make it easier for parents to identify the post-primary school in respect of which their children are entitled to a transport service. There is no doubt that difficulties will arise throughout the State, as they have done in my constituency in east Galway, in Donegal and elsewhere. However, once all these issues are ironed out, I am confident the new arrangements for transporting children to their nearest school will prove far more beneficial and effective. 293 The 9 May 2012. Adjournment

Senator Martin Conway: I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I agree that the end result of the changes he has outlined will be a far better and more streamlined system. There seems to be a ray of hope for the three children from Clonlara who wish to attend St. Anne’s community college in Killaloe in September 2012 in the context of the concessionary travel system to which the Minister of State referred. Will this effectively function as an in-built appeals process, so to speak?

Deputy Ciarán Cannon: To clarify, the children from the Clonlara area who are attending school in Killaloe will be allowed to complete their studies and to access school transport until such time as they complete their leaving certificate. If there are sufficient children from Clon- lara in that situation, we are obliged to provide a transport service for them. Moreover, if seats are available on the service, the children who plan to commence study in Killaloe next September will have access to those concessionary seats. While this arrangement could not be described as an appeals process, it is certainly an opportunity for children who are beginning their education in Killaloe next year to avail of the service, where seats are available. The price of a concessionary ticket is the same as that of a standard ticket, so there is no added expense. I am confident this concessionary option will allow many children in locations throughout the State to continue to access transport to the school of their choice until such time as this existing cohort works its way through the school system.

The Seanad adjourned at 7 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 10 May 2012.

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