Wednesday Volume 585 3 September 2014 No. 31

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 3 September 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 265 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 266

an emphasis on soft power? Military power leaves a House of Commons legacy of antagonism; soft power—the one she is mainly responsible for—leaves a legacy of good will. Wednesday 3 September 2014 Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman makes a very The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock good point. Clearly, in dealing with ISIL we need to look at all the measures necessary to make sure we can tackle the threat it poses. Alongside that work on stability PRAYERS in Iraq, not only does political progress need to be made in forming an inclusive Government, but, as he says, [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] there needs to be humanitarian support for people who have been affected by this crisis on the ground. I met Speaker’s Statement many of them last week, and many of them have awful tales of how they have had to leave their homes overnight, Mr Speaker: I must inform the House that, owing to with almost none of their possessions. We are doing our a misunderstanding, the two Opposition day debates best to support them, but that work has to line up with today were put on the Order Paper in the wrong sequence. a military and a political strategy. I am content that the order in the debate should be reversed, as the Opposition intended. The House will Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The Hashemite therefore debate the motion relating to energy company Kingdom of Jordan is keen to give humanitarian help licence revocations first and the motion relating to to the Kurds in the north of Iraq but is finding great infant class sizes second. difficulty in getting aid through. In particular, it took a month and a half to get a field hospital to the north of Iraq, which is a ridiculously long time. What can the Oral Answers to Questions Secretary of State do to bring pressure to bear on the Iraqi Government to allow Jordanian overflight above the Kingdom of Iraq? INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Justine Greening: My hon. Friend rightly points out that co-ordination between the Government of Iraq—I The Secretary of State was asked— had the chance to meet the Prime Minister-designate Humanitarian Situation (Northern Iraq) when I was there last week—the Kurdistan Regional Government and the UN agencies is crucial. One sticking 1. Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): What recent point has been on making sure we can transport supplies assessment her Department has made of the needs of and equipment quickly; many flights need to stop in people affected by the humanitarian situation in Baghdad, and that is part of the delay. We are seeking northern Iraq; what steps her Department is taking to to make sure that those operations run smoothly. help people affected by that situation; and if she will Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): Quite rightly, there make a statement. [905124] was a huge fuss in this Chamber a few months ago The Secretary of State for International Development about the abduction of the Nigerian schoolchildren. I (Justine Greening): Before I reply, may I welcome the have continually asked about the plight of the Yazidi Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for women, nearly 3,000 of whom have been gang-raped New Forest West (Mr Swayne), to his role? May I also and sold into sexual slavery. I do not have a clear idea pay tribute and give warm thanks to his predecessor, my what we are doing to help those women or why we are right hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton not making it a strong issue that we should be doing (Sir Alan Duncan), who did an outstanding job in that something about. role and is well known across the House for his expertise Justine Greening: I could not agree more with the on the middle east? right hon. Lady’s raising of this issue. As she will know, The Department for International Development is we worked hand in hand with the Ministry of Defence deeply concerned about the situation in northern Iraq; to make sure that we could get humanitarian supplies to the UN’s latest estimate is that 1.8 million people are Yazidis who were trapped on Mount Sinjar. When I was displaced across Iraq. My Department has played a in Iraq last week, I announced £10 million in extra leading role in the response. I visited both Baghdad support, part of which was specifically allocated to and Erbil last week and announced a further £10 million making sure that we can support women and girls, not of funding, bringing our total UK support now to only by protecting them from violence, but by providing £23 million. the trauma counselling and support they need to help Paul Flynn: I did not hear an answer, but I would them after those experiences. have been grateful if I had. I am sure we look forward to Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I warmly welcome seeing the new Minister, and I hope we appreciate his the Secretary of State’s visit to Iraq. What DFID, performances as much as we have appreciated his silence official and diplomatic presence do we have in the over the past years. country to ensure that we are well informed about the The NATO summit will start tomorrow in the splendid developing situation there after her return? city of Newport, and it will be followed by a Newport declaration. Will the Secretary of State give us an Justine Greening: First, when this crisis commenced, assurance that although the Newport declaration will we quickly embedded an official humanitarian adviser contain some military recommendations, there will be in the Kurdistan Regional Government. I had a chance 267 Oral Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 268 to ask the Regional Government for an assessment of 3. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): What her the work that they are doing. Secondly, we have also Department’s role is in the relief effort for people had somebody working on the ground with UN agencies, affected by the situation in Gaza. [905126] ensuring that the initial work setting up the operations was well organised. Thirdly, we will now look to provide 5. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): What further official support as the team and operation on her Department’s role is in the relief effort for people the ground in northern Iraq get going. As my hon. affected by the situation in Gaza. [905128] Friend will be aware, most of our work happens through UN agencies and non-governmental organisations, but, 6. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): What recent as I have just outlined, we also provide technical assistance work has been undertaken through programmes of her and support. Department in Gaza. [905129]

Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab): I congratulate The Minister of State, Department for International the right hon. Member for New Forest West (Mr Swayne) Development (Mr Desmond Swayne): The United Kingdom on his promotion. He has a tough act to follow in the is one of the largest donors. We have spent some £17 million right hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Sir Alan in emergency aid. We are providing food and essential Duncan), who brought real passion and commitment to supplies to families in desperate need. We are repairing the job. the water infrastructure and providing counselling to The murder of Steven Sotloff and the reports of the those who have been traumatised. taking of a British hostage remind us of the bravery and dedication of those who go to the region to save Helen Goodman: I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman people’s lives or to report the news. Over recent months, on his promotion and thank him for his answer. As the there has been a move of 850,000 internally displaced House knows, children have borne the brunt of the civilians into Kurdistan. Will the Secretary of State say recent conflict: 500 have died, 1,000 are permanently a little more about what has been done to support the disabled and half a million cannot go to school. Yet the Kurdistan Regional Government, and to make sure UN’s appeal is only half funded. What is the Department that public services do not collapse under the strain? doing to get other members of the international community to play their part? Justine Greening: The right hon. Gentleman is right to raise that point. When I visited Iraq last week, I was Mr Swayne: The hon. Lady is quite right. From our keen to ensure that I went to Erbil, and I had the chance rapid reaction facility, we have specifically earmarked to meet both the President of the Kurdistan Regional funds for the assistance of children. With respect to Government and the Deputy Prime Minister. I was encouraging others to step up to the plate as we have impressed by the work and the team that is in place to done, there will undoubtedly be a donors’ conference respond to the crisis. I met not just those at a senior soon, but that will be immeasurably assisted by a meaningful ministerial level, but the mayor of Erbil who, alongside peace process. having to continue to provide basic services to people in that city, is now coping with around 100,000 displaced Ian Lavery: The conflict in Gaza has displaced almost people who have arrived there. The camps and facilities 1.8 million people—one quarter of the inhabitants of are now being set up to cope with them. The teams are Gaza—and they are of all ages. Will the Minister say well organised, and we have a humanitarian adviser what his Department is doing to provide relief for the working alongside them, and we will look to see what mainly disabled and elderly people in Gaza who have more we can do over the coming weeks and months to been displaced? support the Kurdistan Regional Government. Mr Swayne: The hon. Gentleman is quite right. Some Mr Murphy: The whole House will look forward to 58,000 people are currently sheltering in UN relief hearing those updates and how we are supporting the agency schools, and 100,000 people have no home to Kurdistan Regional Government. Assyrian Christians, return to. Clearly, there must be a rebuilding effort, but Yazidis and Turkmen Shi’a have lived side by side in that will require substantial movement on access into that region for centuries, and yet ISIL is now targeting and out of Gaza, and that will require a peace process non-Arab and non-Sunni Muslim populations and that can proceed. communities. Will the Secretary of State assure the House that in the distribution of life-saving aid that sort Alex Cunningham: The answer to that question was of discrimination is not unintentionally repeated and helpful, because the people of Gaza have been denied that all minorities have equal access to life-saving aid the right to the essentials of daily life for many, many and support? years because of the illegal blockade, and they now depend on the Israeli Government or the tunnels in Justine Greening: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman order to get aid. Does the Minister agree that it is a that in co-ordinating our humanitarian assistance, we necessity to end the blockade, and what will his Department do it solely on the basis of need. and others do to achieve that? Mr Swayne: The hon. Gentleman is right. The UN Relief Effort (Gaza) report suggested that even before this latest round of hostilities, Gaza would become uninhabitable by 2020— 2. Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): What before it had started to be smashed to smithereens. her Department’s role is in the relief effort for people Clearly, there must be movement on access if Gaza is to affected by the situation in Gaza. [905125] have a viable economic future. What are we doing about 269 Oral Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 270 that? We are contributing to a peace process, and our the salination of the aquifer, with all drinking water primary aim in this Department is to bring relief to becoming undrinkable quite soon afterwards. Is there those who are in want. anything that his Department can do now of a practical nature, not dependent on the peace process, to Graham Evans: Will my right hon. Friend update the improve the longer-term situation in Gaza? House on the work that his Department is doing with the Foreign Office to help address the underlying causes of the conflict in Gaza, and to work towards a two-state Mr Swayne: We are taking action now: we have solution? deployed funds from our rapid reaction facility precisely to deal with the water issue. But in the long term, the Mr Swayne: We believe that a two-state solution is salination and desalination has to be taken into account, the only realistic game in town, and to that end we are and that will require a very substantial investment in the spending considerable sums of money in support of the infrastructure. Palestinian Authority, in order to get it into the habit of good governance, so that democratic institutions can Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I welcome flourish. We are also investing considerably in private the right hon. Gentleman to his new role and pay sector development so that there will be economic growth, tribute to his predecessor. The 3,000 injured children in in order that a future state should be both stable and Gaza and the 100,000 Palestinians made homeless whom prosperous. the Minister mentioned need uninterrupted help from humanitarian agencies such as the Red Cross. The Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): The Minister mentioned situation is still urgent. What specific steps has he taken the UN relief agency schools. Is he as appalled as I am with the Foreign Office and others to encourage both that those so-called safe havens were bombed and people Israeli and Palestinian actors to ensure safe, continuous within them killed, and what is his Department doing access for those working to aid the recovery in Gaza? with others in the international community to ensure that those are safe havens? Mr Swayne: We continually make representations to the Israelis with respect to making access easier. The Mr Swayne: As I said, some 58,000 people are now hon. Lady is quite right: many of those children have sheltering in these schools. It is absolutely right that life-changing injuries. The NGOs who have to negotiate breaches of international law on both sides be investigated, access to Gaza currently incur costs of some £6 million and we will be vigilant in that process. a year to do so, and that is not acceptable. 12. [905135] Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): I very much welcome the Minister’s comments about the 13. [905137] Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): provision of aid, but has any consideration been given Although I recognise that both the Israelis and the to the fact that much of the damage may have been Egyptians have offered humanitarian aid during the caused by weaponry, or parts of weapons, that were crisis, I am keen to press the Minister on what his sold to Israel with UK Government approval? Department could do immediately to ensure supplies of medicine and medical aid to the people of Gaza. Mr Swayne: As the Prime Minister made clear in his statement on Monday, there has been a thorough review Mr Swayne: We have supplied emergency aid to the of export licences and proper procedures have been put International Committee of the Red Cross, to which we in place. In fact, 12 licences were identified where a gave £3 million, and through our rapid reaction facility component part could possibly have been used in an to other NGOs. offensive capacity. Those licences will be suspended if there is a return to significant hostilities. Humanitarian Situation (South Sudan)

Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): May 4. Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What recent I press the Minister a little more on the question of the assessment she has made of the humanitarian situation blockade? If I understood him correctly, he said that a in South Sudan. [905127] peace process needs to be got going in order to lift the blockade, but my understanding of the ceasefire is that an easing of the blockade, at least, comes first. That is a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for way of getting to the peace process. The aid needs to be International Development (Lynne Featherstone): I returned going in now. What is the Government’s position? Is it from South Sudan early this morning and have seen pressing for the blockade to be lifted now? that the humanitarian situation there remains precarious: 1.8 million people have been displaced by the conflict, Mr Swayne: My understanding of the ceasefire 1.3 million of them within the country. Although aid arrangements is that they, in effect, restore the status has helped to ameliorate the food security situation in quo ante with respect to the Rafah crossing. But if we some areas, there is still a high risk of famine in early are to see a significant easing of the restrictions and 2015. economic development, there must be much greater access, and that means that Israel’s legitimate security Sir Tony Baldry: I am grateful to my right hon. concerns must be taken into account and allayed. Friend for updating the House on her recent visit to Juba. The House wants reassurance from her that the 10. [905133] Sir Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con): international community has got a grip on the deteriorating My right hon. Friend has rightly highlighted that even humanitarian situation in South Sudan and will, as far before the latest Israeli action the people of Gaza faced as possible, be able to abate what looks as though it a pressing humanitarian crisis, caused, for example, by could turn into a humanitarian disaster. 271 Oral Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 272

Lynne Featherstone: My right hon. Friend is right to Ebola in Sierra Leone, with the US leading in Liberia be worried about the food security situation. There are and France in Guinea, but we continue to encourage 3.9 million people facing alarming levels of food insecurity, other international partners to join those efforts. and the UN estimates that up to 50,000 children could die this year from malnutrition. Humanitarian access is Topical Questions impeded, but I can assure the House that the international community is together on this issue, and I press Ministers in South Sudan most strongly to allow humanitarian T1. [905138] Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): If access. It will depress the House, however, to learn that she will make a statement on her departmental there is a lack of will from the leaders of South Sudan responsibilities. to care about the people of the country rather than themselves. The Secretary of State for International Development (Justine Greening): After visiting Zambia in July to see Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): its work in tackling child marriage, my Department led The Minister said that 1.3 million people have been the successful Girl Summit and #YouthForChange event internally displaced in South Sudan. What steps is she with the aim of helping to end female genital mutilation taking to ensure that whatever assistance we can make and child early and forced marriage in a generation. My available there is being specifically targeted at helping Department has also been focused on the UK’s response that very large number of at-risk people? to the humanitarian crisis in Iraq, Gaza and Syria, and the spread of the Ebola virus in west Africa. Lynne Featherstone: I flew up to Ganyiel myself to see the internally displaced people. They are being Richard Graham: I have heard young constituents accommodated although there is an issue between the talk about the National Citizen Service programme and host community and the IDPs. We have given £12.5 million its transformational effect on their lives, and I believe to those refugees who have gone to the region, and we that the International Citizen Service proposals will work with international partners to ensure that food have an equally transformational impact on people who and assistance reach them. might otherwise never have such an opportunity. Will the Secretary of State tell us more about how this 11. [905134] Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) programme will evolve, and how we can spread the (Con): Twenty-three Members of Parliament in South word about its opportunities to people? Sudan have recently been removed. What can the Government do to help to support the parliamentary Justine Greening: More than 5,600 UK volunteers process in South Sudan? aged between 18 and 25 have now taken part in the International Citizen Service. It is a fantastic scheme Lynne Featherstone: I met Ministers, and it is quite giving young people wonderful opportunities, and we clear that the Government of South Sudan is not plan to expand it and grow those places. functioning in a manner that we would recognise. They are closing down radio stations and inhibiting access to T2. [905139] Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): In the humanitarian agencies. As I said, the case is extremely Central African Republic, the humanitarian situation depressing, but we urge them to observe the new 45-day remains dire. What steps is the Secretary of State deadline that they have to put in place a transitional taking to help there, including the situation for refugees Government because only peace can help the people of to Chad, Cameroon and Democratic Republic of the South Sudan. Congo? Ebola Epidemic The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 7. Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): What humanitarian International Development (Lynne Featherstone): The relief efforts the UK is undertaking in connection with UK has provided £23 million in humanitarian assistance the Ebola epidemic. [905130] to the Central African Republic crisis since mid-2013, as well as £2.5 million in development funding through The Secretary of State for International Development central programmes. We are the second largest bilateral (Justine Greening): The UK is playing a leading role donor and some of that money goes to the region for and working with the international community to combat refugees. Ebola. In total, around £25 million of British funding is supporting the global effort to contain this disease. T4. [905141] Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): That includes £5 million of direct funding to help What humanitarian assistance has DFID afforded to partners working on the ground such as Médecins sans the Iraqi town of Amerli, which until recently was Frontières and the Red Cross. surrounded by ISIL militants, resulting in thousands of Shi’a Turkmen being threatened with starvation and Mark Menzies: Many of us have been shocked by the death? devastation that Ebola has brought to west Africa. Will the Secretary of State update the House on how closely Justine Greening: My hon. Friend will be aware that we are working with the United States and France? the UK supported international efforts to deliver aid to thousands of people trapped by ISIL in the Iraqi town Justine Greening: We are working very closely with of Amerli during the weekend. DFID provided supplies other UN agencies, but also with the US and France. of 8.5 tonnes of water and 3 tonnes of food, which were The UK is very much leading the efforts to respond to dropped from the air by the RAF C-130 aircraft. I would 273 Oral Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 274 like to take this opportunity to thank our RAF personnel The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure for doing such an outstanding job in providing those that the whole House and the whole country will join life-saving supplies. me in condemning the sickening and brutal murder of another American hostage, and share our shock and T5. [905142] Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): anger that it again appears to have been carried out by a World Vision has told me that half a million children British citizen. All our thoughts are with the British did not begin a new school year last month because hostage and his family: their ordeal is unimaginable. of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. How does the But let me be very clear: this country will never give in Department intend to support efforts to ensure that we to terrorism. Our opposition to ISIL will continue at do not see another lost generation and that these home and abroad. It is important that we are clear children get to school? about the nature of the threat we face. It makes no distinction between cultures, countries and religions; Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman is right to there is no way to appease it. The only way to defeat it is raise that issue. One of the challenges has been that to stand firm and to send a very straightforward message: many of the people displaced within Gaza went to a country like ours will not be cowed by these barbaric schools that were empty because of the school holidays. killers. If they think that we will weaken in the face of I recently spoke to the head of the United Nations their threats, they are wrong—it will have the opposite Relief and Works Agency about how we can ensure we effect. We will be more forthright in the defence of the create the homes and the refuges for people to leave the values that we hold dear—liberty under the rule of law, schools so that the children can get back to school. The freedom and democracy—and I am sure a united message hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; we need to make to that effect will go forward from this House today. sure that they do not lose their education. This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in this House I T6. [905143] Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): What are shall have further such meetings later today. the British Government’s plans for development goals as part of the UN General Assembly later this month? Mr Cunningham: I endorse what the Prime Minister Justine Greening: We will be pushing our vision for a has just said about the American hostage. compelling new set of development goals in relation to Some years ago, the Prime Minister said he wanted to post-2015, and in our August presidency of the UN stop the Conservatives “banging on about Europe”. Security Council, we have been focusing on conflict What has happened? prevention.

T8. [905145] Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and The Prime Minister: A lot of things have changed in Saddleworth) (Lab): Will the Secretary of State Europe, not least the eurozone crisis, which had eased confirm that Ministers of both parties will be voting in but is beginning to reappear, creating an enormous favour of the Bill enshrining our 0.7% commitment to tension within the European Union—those countries development in law? within the eurozone that need further integration, and those countries outside the eurozone that want a more Justine Greening: The most important thing is that flexible relationship with Europe. It is absolutely right for the first time ever, this country and this Government that we debate and discuss these matters in this House, have met their pledge to hit 0.7%, which is an achievement but above all it is right that we include the British that we should be proud of, and we support the Bill. people, and under my plans they will have the decisive say before the end of 2017. T7. [905144] Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Many people are still stuck in camps on the Burma-Thai border, unable to return home and in a Q3. [905150] Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and precarious situation, without enough food or supplies. East Thurrock) (Con): Will the Prime Minister Will the Minister meet Kidz in Kampz in my join me in congratulating all the businesses in Basildon constituency, which does a wonderful job helping and Thurrock that over the last year have reduced people to understand the problems on the ground? unemployment by 36% in my constituency? Does he agree that this is evidence that our long-term economic The Minister of State, Department for International plan is working? Development (Mr Desmond Swayne): I will undoubtedly do so. The Prime Minister: I am delighted to join my hon. Friend in that way. Unemployment is coming down right across the country. In the east of England, the PRIME MINISTER number of people in work is up by 400,000 since the election; private sector employment is up; the number of businesses is up; and investment is up. The news The Prime Minister was asked— today about the GDP figure revisions shows that since Engagements 2010 this country has grown faster than France, faster than Germany, and faster than any major economy Mr Speaker: I call Eric Joyce. Not here. apart from Canada and the United States of America. There should not be any complacency, because the job Q2. [905149] Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) is not yet done, but our long-term economic plan is (Lab): If he will list his official engagements for working and it is the way to secure a better future for Wednesday 3 September. our country. 275 Oral Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 276

Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the few weeks, can he tell us what plans he has to use the Prime Minister in expressing the universal sense of UK’s chair of the Security Council to build the international revulsion at the barbaric murder of Stephen Sotloff, consensus that he talked about? and deep concern about the British hostage being held, for whose family this will be a terrible time, and people The Prime Minister: So far, as the right hon. Gentleman across the country will be thinking of them. This is a says, we have used the United Nations to put pressure pattern of murderous behaviour by ISIL towards the on ISIL by making it clear that people should not be innocent: Christians; Yazidis; Muslims—anyone who providing resources or sanctuary to these people; indeed, does not agree with their vile ideology. And I agree with they should be cut off. That has been the approach so the Prime Minister: events like this must strengthen, not far. But we do have an opportunity, through the UN, to weaken, our resolve to defeat them and he can be marshal international support and backing for the view assured of our full support in standing firm against that this ISIL so-called Islamic caliphate is unacceptable them. and needs to be squeezed out of existence. That is what we should do, and we should aim to get the maximum The Prime Minister: I thank the Leader of the Opposition support through the UN for the measures, right across for what he has said and the way in which he has said it. the board, that are being taken. I think this House should send a united message. What has happened to the two hostages so far and what may Edward Miliband: Turning to the threat we face in happen again in the future is utterly abhorrent and Britain, people will have been shocked and disgusted barbaric. These people need to understand that we will that there were British voices on the video and that not waver in our aim of defeating terrorism. That is not British citizens are part of ISIL. On Monday, the Prime something that divides this House politically; it is something Minister announced that he would reintroduce relocation that everyone, and I suspect the entirety of our country, powers for suspected terrorists. He has our full support agrees with. for this change. Can he confirm that this will go ahead, and can he give an indication of the timetable for bringing these powers forward? Edward Miliband: ISIL’s pattern of killing will shock people not just in Britain but across the world. Does the Prime Minister further agree with me that we and The Prime Minister: I can confirm that it will go countries in the region have a vital humanitarian and ahead, and it is going to require legislation. The key is, I security interest in overcoming ISIL? Can I ask him think, to put the desires and advice of David Anderson, what progress is being made to mobilise other countries, who is the independent reviewer of terrorism, into including Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and regional action. What he has spoken about is some combination bodies, especially the Arab League, against ISIL? of exclusion and relocation, and it is that that needs to be introduced into the terrorism prevention and investigatory measures. I think we should try to do this The Prime Minister: If I may say so, the way the on a cross-party basis to send the clearest possible Leader of the Opposition is approaching this is entirely message, and urgency is the order of the day. right. We should see this crisis as one where we are there to help the people on the ground and the countries in Edward Miliband: The best way to deal with terrorists the region that want to solve this crisis. We should not is of course criminal prosecution or, where that is not see it as somehow a western-led intervention. We have possible, strict restrictions on their activities and movements. the Kurds that are defending communities, including On Monday, the Prime Minister also proposed the minority communities, from the horrors of ISIL. We possibility of blocking British citizens from returning to have the Government in Baghdad, which badly needs to the UK. Given that there has been some doubt cast on get itself together so it can represent all of the country. this, can he say a bit more about whether he believes Then we, with allies and neighbours, can do more to that it is legally permissible, and, again, whether there make sure that this appalling organisation, ISIL, feels are plans to take this forward? the full pressure of international, regional and local condemnation. That is what should be done. As he says, The Prime Minister: The short answer is that I do we should be using all the assets that we have, focusing believe it is legally permissible, but it is going to take first on humanitarian aid and saving people from some work, for this reason. We already have the power persecution, hunger and starvation; using our diplomatic when people are trying to return to the United Kingdom. and political pressures to make sure there is a Government If it is a foreign national, we can exclude them, even if in Baghdad who can represent all the country; and they have lived in this country for any number of years. marshalling, working with others, so that the maximum If it is a dual national, we can strip them of their British amount of pressure is put on. If we continue in that citizenship and exclude them from the country. If it is a way, always asking ourselves, “How can others in the naturalised Briton, we can, under our new laws passed neighbourhood do their work, how can we help them, recently through this House, strip them of their British and how do we best defend our national interest and nationality. But I do believe there is a gap where you keep our people safe at home?”, that is the right approach. have someone born and raised as a British citizen, rather like the individual from High Wycombe we discussed Edward Miliband: I agree with the Prime Minister, on Monday saying he wanted to return in order to do and building that partnership is vital in the weeks and harm to our country. Of course, the best thing to do is months ahead. Work through the United Nations is to gather evidence, prosecute, convict and imprison, but obviously a key part of building the legitimacy and there may be occasions when we need to exclude, and so effectiveness of the alliance against ISIL. In addition to therefore we should fill that gap in our armoury, and I the UN Security Council resolution passed in the last believe it is legal and possible to do it. 277 Oral Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 278

Edward Miliband: Of course, we will look at the Will he acknowledge that it is a real problem? It is practicality and legality of any proposals the Prime actually a national scandal and it is his job to do Minister comes forward with. something about it. Finally, may I ask the Prime Minister to revisit the The Prime Minister: First, it is welcome that all case for strengthening the Prevent programme in terms infants will have free school meals as they go to school both of resources and of community engagement? After this week. That will be welcome to many families up all, that is essential to stop people being indoctrinated and down the country. The evidence is that 99% of into this poisonous ideology. We need swift action to schools are providing those free school meals, but I have build alliances across the world against ISIL and strong to say that the best way we can help people is to get and considered action here at home. It is what the world more people into work—and we are—and make sure needs; it is what the British people expect; and in that our economy continues to grow and that it delivers pursuing this course the Prime Minister will have our for hard-working people. full support. I know the Labour party wants to get this narrative about inequality up and running, but let me give some The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman statistics to show why it is not true. There are 300,000 for his support. On the Prevent programme, what we fewer children in poverty than when Labour was in have done is try to divide up the different elements of it. office. Inequality in our country has gone down, not up. One part is about community cohesion, which is best One of the most serious causes of poverty—long-term led by the Department for Communities and Local youth unemployment—is now lower than when this Government, and the other part is best run by the Government came to office. That is how we are changing Home Office through the Prevent programme. That is people’s lives and their life chances. what we have done. What we need to be absolutely clear about, however, Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Does the Prime is that it is not enough to target those who preach Minister agree that our friends in the middle east who violent extremism. We need to go after those who share a basic commitment to pluralism, democracy and promote the extremist narrative and life view that gives peaceful change—from the Syrian National Coalition the terrorists and the men of violence support for what to Mahmoud Abbas in Palestine and the elected they do. It is not unlike the cold war, where we pursued Governments of Kurdistan, Libya and, we hope, Iraq— not just those who wanted to do us such harm; we also must by now be finding British support inconsistent, had to challenge all those who gave them succour. That fragmented and unstrategic, and is it not time for a is what we need to do in this struggle, which, as I have more consistent strategy? said, I think will last for decades, and we need to show The Prime Minister: I am afraid that I do not agree at resilience and, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, all with the hon. Gentleman. This Government have unity in pursuing it. massively increased our engagement with Gulf and middle eastern states. Everybody knows that our view is Mr Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): one in favour of democracy, human rights and the In this Parliament, our coalition Government have increased building blocks of democracy. We are not naive health spending in England by more than £17 billion a interventionists who believe you can drop democracy year. As a direct consequence of that, the block grant to out of the back of an aeroplane—it needs to be built. Scotland, which supports NHS funding in Scotland, They know that is our view. We engage with all of those has increased by £1.7 billion a year. Does my right hon. states in order to maximise not just our influence, but Friend agree that that gives the lie to Alex Salmond’s the chance of regional stability in that vital area. propaganda about the NHS? Q6. [905153] Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab): Does the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is absolutely share public concern that terrible abuse can happen to right. Because of the decisions we took—long-term children—most recently, the 1,400 sexually abused girls decisions after a careful assessment—to increase spending in Rotherham—yet directors of social services and on the health service, that has given extra money for other senior officers pay no penalty and often move on Scotland to spend on the NHS. That gives the lie to one to even higher paid jobs? Surely, if the contracts of the of Alex Salmond’s claims. His second claim that, somehow, people at the top mean they cannot be sacked in such a Westminster Government could privatise parts of the circumstances, the contracts need looking at. NHS in Scotland is complete and utter nonsense. The only person who could privatise parts of the NHS in The Prime Minister: I agree entirely with what the Scotland is Alex Salmond. You can tell someone has hon. Lady has said. First, what we have seen in Rotherham lost the argument when they start having ludicrous is deeply shocking, and as I have said, I think it demonstrates ideas about what they would do themselves. a failure in the local government system there, in the children’s services department and in policing. All those Q4. [905151] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): issues need to be addressed, which is why I have asked There have been worrying reports over the past week the Home Secretary to chair a group of Ministers to about a rise in malnutrition, the return of rickets and look at how we learn the lessons even before we get our children going back to school hungry after the school child abuse inquiry fully under way. holidays. I know the Government are rolling out free The hon. Lady is absolutely right that local authorities, school meals, but that alone will not solve food poverty. when they employ these people, should look carefully at When I have asked the Prime Minister about this their contracts and make sure that if people do not do before, I have really felt that he is not taking it seriously. the job properly they can be removed. It is absolutely 279 Oral Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 280 vital: you cannot police all of this from Whitehall; local Israel or kosher goods as this conflates the policies government has responsibility for the people it employs of the Israeli Government with Judaism and in turn and should hold them to account. leads to a rise in anti-Semitism? What reassurance can the Prime Minister give my constituents that this Q7. [905154] Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): May Government will address both boycotts and anti- I concur with the Prime Minister’s earlier comments on Semitism in the United Kingdom? this appalling, barbaric behaviour, and say that we all stand right behind him? The Prime Minister: We have been very clear that we If net migration into the UK continues at its present do not support boycotts and we do not support measures level, we can fill a city the size of Leeds every three that are intended to delegitimise the state of Israel, years. This is not only unsustainable, but potentially which has a right to exist and which we argue has a right destabilising to the country. Does my right hon. Friend to peace within its proper borders. My hon. Friend agree that the sooner we adopt a visa-only system for all makes an important point, which is that we should be foreign nationals, including those from the EU—thus absolutely clear that you can criticise Israel and the allowing a sovereign Parliament to decide who settles Israeli Government for their actions without being anti- here—the better? Semitic, but in recent weeks we have seen a rise in anti-Semitic attacks in our country, and as I said on The Prime Minister: First, I thank my hon. Friend for Monday, that is completely unacceptable. what he says about the stand we must all take against terror and terrorism, and against ISIL. Q9. [905156] Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): I refer the Prime Minister to events in On immigration, we have done a huge amount to Rotherham. Does he agree that a common thread restrict migration from outside the European Union—the between the awful picture from Rotherham, which was figures are down by almost 30% since this Government referred to earlier, and the dreadful plight this week of came to office; we have closed down 700 bogus colleges; Ashya King is that the relevant authorities are all too we have introduced an economic limit—but I agree with often driven by considerations other than the best my hon. Friend that we need to do more. Of course, interests of the child? To reflect that sad lesson for all freedom of movement is an important principle, but it of us, will he agree to amend the Modern Slavery Bill is not an unqualified right, and it should not be the to provide for independent child guardians who are freedom of movement to claim benefits. We should also charged with reflecting the best interests of the child to make sure that when new member states join the European all the relevant authorities and services? Union we do not necessarily have transitional controls that simply last for a number of years, but transitional The Prime Minister: I am very proud that the controls that ensure they will not have full access to our Government are introducing the Modern Slavery Bill. markets until their economies are of a radically different It is a Bill that I strongly support and I will look size and shape. carefully at the specific suggestion that the hon. Gentleman makes. Let me make a brief comment on his other Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The most recent points. To be fair to the authorities involved in the case UK ambassador to NATO, Dame Mariot Leslie, has of Ashya King, they all want to do the best thing for the today said that an independent Scotland would be child—that is what they are thinking of—but decisions welcome in NATO, and that she is voting yes in the have been taken that were not correct and that did not referendum, just like so many other undecided voters chime with common sense. Fortunately, that has been who want a better Scotland. Earlier this year, the Prime put right. All of us in public life and public offices have Minister gave a commitment on Scottish Television to to examine what the legal requirements are, but we also take part in a programme with undecided voters before have to make judgments, and those judgments can the referendum. Will he be doing that or running away, sometimes be all important. just as he ran away from a debate with the First Minister? Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): If The Prime Minister: On the television programme on even the respected Hampshire police can use the European Scottish Television, I offered them a date and, indeed, a arrest warrant to create an injustice, can my right hon. format, but they seemed to run away themselves, which Friend have any confidence that other member states is a great pity. with less well developed legal systems will not use the On NATO, I prefer to listen to Lord Robertson, the arrest warrant for worse purposes? former Secretary-General of NATO, who is absolutely clear that Scotland will be better off inside the United The Prime Minister: I respect my hon. Friend’s arguments, Kingdom and that the United Kingdom will be better but the police have to make judgments and, as I have off with Scotland. The problem with the hon. Gentleman just said, they do not always get those judgments right. is that when it comes to all of the big questions—what Those of us in this House have to think about a potential currency would a separate Scotland use, what would be situation in which a terrorist has attacked our country its position in NATO, what would be its position in the and is on the run through Europe to other countries, European Union?—they have not been able to provide and about how quickly we want to be able to get that a single, credible answer. person back in front of our courts to face British justice. That is not an imaginary set of circumstances; it Q8. [905155] Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): is exactly what happened in 2005 after the dreadful Does the Prime Minister agree that although it is London bombings, so we need to think about it. I am acceptable to hold opposing opinions, it is not all for making sure that powers flow from Brussels to acceptable to promote boycotts of goods produced in London, and they have done in the case of justice and 281 Oral Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 282 home affairs, where we have repatriated more than threatened with beheading, and told “Convert or die.” 100 measures. However, I also want to be a Prime Is it time to consider further supportive action for Minister who can look the British people in the eye and Christians, and additional sanctions against ISIL? say, “We will keep you safe from serious crime and terrorism, and we will get people back in front of The Prime Minister: We should do everything we can British courts as soon as possible.” to protect persecuted minorities—including not only Christians but also the Yazidi communities—and that is Q10. [905157] Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): We where we have been using our resources. Up to now, we now know that, in the event of separation— have mostly been giving humanitarian aid, which we have been delivering through our military assets and Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) RAF planes, and working with others to ensure people (SNP): Ha, ha! are protected. We should also, as part of that strategy, work with the Kurds and others so that ISIL can be Lindsay Roy: That was a good laugh. We know that beaten back and Christians and others are not persecuted. in the event of separation, we would no longer have a formal currency union with the rest of the UK. In John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Increasing response, the First Minister has said that an independent numbers of British families are leaving the UK, like the Scotland would default on its share of the national debt. Ashya King family, because they believe they will get a Prime Minister, what would be the consequences of fairer trial in family courts abroad than in the UK. such a reckless approach for the people of Scotland? Does the Prime Minister agree that Parliament should look at the reasons for that? The Prime Minister: I think one of the most chilling things that has been said in the referendum campaign is The Prime Minister: We regularly debate family law that a separate Scotland would consider defaulting on in this House, and the Government have made some its debts. We all know what happens if you do not pay amendments to family law, after long debates within your debts—no one will lend you any money unless you Government and in this House. If the hon. Gentleman pay a punitive interest rate. We all know what that is arguing that there should be further such debates, means for home owners—much, much higher mortgage there are Backbench Business days and other parliamentary rates. For businesses, it means crippling interest rates. opportunities to raise such issues. Those are the consequences of what the separatists are proposing. We need to get that message out loud and Q12. [905159] Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) clear in the coming days. (Lab): Given the birthday present given to the Prime Minister by the former Member for Clacton, how Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): For all the many more birthday surprises is he expecting from his reasons that have been given, if we were to lose the Tory Back Benchers? Union, it would be not only a disaster for Scotland, but a national humiliation of catastrophic proportions. I The Prime Minister: I am sure I will be getting all say gently to the three party leaders that perhaps we sorts of pleasant surprises on my birthday. Please do have been a bit complacent up to now. I urge them, over not spoil it by letting me know what they are. the next two weeks, to drop everything else and stand shoulder to shoulder to fight for the Union that we love Q13. [905160] Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): Scotland and believe in. [Interruption.] is important to many businesses in Fylde, and many are rightly concerned that Alex Salmond and the Yes Mr Speaker: Order. Mr MacNeil, you are a thoroughly campaign have failed to provide a plan B for the decent chap, but you are a very over-excitable individual. currency should Scotland become independent. Does You should calm down. You aspire to be a statesman; the Prime Minister agree that the voters of Scotland try behaving like one. need to know what plan B is before they vote, and if they cannot get a clear answer, they should say “No The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend thanks” to separation on 18 September? about the importance of the referendum. The leaders of the parties in this House have all put aside their differences The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good and said that, in spite of the political differences we point. Those of us who believe in the United Kingdom have, we all agree about one thing: not only is Scotland can answer all of those questions. We can answer on better off inside the United Kingdom, but the United what the United Kingdom will look like in the future, Kingdom is better off with Scotland inside it. As well as but those arguing for separation have not answered being leader of the Conservative party and Prime Minister, those questions. Their most recent effort to say that I am the Member of Parliament for an English seat and somehow Scotland would go on using sterling but not I say on behalf of everyone in England and, I believe, in be part of a monetary union got a rebuff yesterday Wales and Northern Ireland, “We want Scotland to from the European Commissioner, who said that on stay.” that basis they would not be able to be members of the European Union. Yet again, another piece of the puzzle Q11. [905158] Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): We completely falls away. are all aware of the Prime Minister’s interest in the middle east and particularly Iraq, and of what has Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Is not the truth that happened since the last Prime Minister’s questions, ISIL will not be beaten without air strikes in Syria as particularly in the past 24 hours. In Mosul and the well, and that means engaging with the Assad regime plains of Nineveh in Iraq, Christians have been displaced, and Iran—however unpalatable—as well as with the 283 Oral Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 284

Saudis? Perhaps that is also a route to resolving the such as Nigeria and Somalia. We often do not hear bitter and dangerous Shi’a-Sunni conflicts in the region, about that work because it is better to keep people’s because ultimately ISIS poses a bigger threat to nations names and identities from the public, but it is important in the region than it does to us. that people know that when this happens, meetings of Cobra are held—I take a personal interest in each and The Prime Minister: I will make two points to the every one of these cases—to work out what we can do right hon. Gentleman, whose views on this matter I to help their families, to help bring people home and to respect. First, I would argue that Assad’s brutality has resolve these dreadful, complex situations. been one of the things that has helped generate the appalling regime that ISIS represents. Secondly, what Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): We have we want to see—we are consistent across the piece on seen chaos in Iraq and Syria, appalling events that have this—is democratic Governments that are pluralistic just passed in Gaza, Libya in some disturbance, and the and represent all their people. We want to see that in appalling, illegal annexation of Crimea by President Iraq, which is why we support Prime Minister al-Abadi Putin, yet this House has had no proper opportunity to in his attempts to build an inclusive Government, and discuss these matters. Is it not time that the Prime we should support attempts in Syria to have a democratic Minister allowed us a full and substantive, preferably transition to a regime that can represent everyone in two-day debate, and certainly before the House rises for Syria. the party conference recess, to discuss these matters?

Q14. [905161] Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Jihadi crimes committed in the name of the Islamic right. We live in a very troubled and difficult world, State are completely incompatible with the British way with huge changes taking place, some of which he of life, so I welcome the plans announced by my right mentioned. In consultation with the Leader of the hon. Friend to seize British passports from dual House, there will be a full day’s debate as soon as next nationals, and to remove rights of residency in the UK Wednesday, I think, which will give hon. Members the from foreign nationals known to have been fighting chance to speak about these issues, and I am sure there with ISIL in Iraq and Syria, in order to keep such will be subsequent opportunities perhaps to consider people from committing terrorist atrocities in the UK. some of the individual questions he raises. What progress have the Government made concerning jihadis with only British citizenship, whom my Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): The horrific, constituents believe have forfeited their right to return vile and disgusting abuse suffered by children in my to the UK, even though they may be rendered stateless constituency should never have been allowed to happen. if deprived of citizenship? The victims still have not got the support they deserve and the criminals are still on the street. Child sexual The Prime Minister: First, I pay tribute to my hon. exploitation is not only a Rotherham issue, but a national Friend for his great work representing the people of issue, so when will the Prime Minister appoint the chair Dudley South for the past four years and all the work to his inquiry into child abuse so that no child will be let he has done. He is absolutely right that people in down by statutory agencies again? Dudley South—indeed, people across our country—take the basic view that if someone leaves this country, The Prime Minister: First, may I commend the hon. travels to the heart of Iraq, declares they are in favour Lady? She is absolutely right to speak as she does. This of some so-called Islamic state, and that is the country has affected not just Rotherham; of course, there were they want to be part of, they should effectively forfeit the dreadful cases in Oxford, near to my constituency, their right to come back and live in Britain. That is what of a very similar nature, with similar failings in the people feel, and they feel it deeply, which is why it is systems. As I have announced, the Home Secretary will right to consider how we can have legal powers not just be leading a committee of Ministers to draw together to strip dual nationals of their British citizenship or to the Government’s response, and the announcement of exclude foreign nationals, but to prevent British citizens the person to lead the broader child abuse inquiry will who make those statements from coming back to our be made in the coming days. These are all vital issues. country. We have to ask ourselves a series of questions about how these individual services failed. Yes, of course there Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): is the issue about whether these problems were ignored My constituent Kristian Nicholson is trapped in northern because of concerns about racism and political correctness. Iraq unable to travel home. In the light of the threat But there is also a big concern that sometimes the police from ISIL, will the Prime Minister look at his case and and other agencies ignored these people because they see what more can be done to expedite his return home felt they were beyond the pale, which offends all our as soon as possible, including by issuing new travel senses of human decency. None of these children and documents, if necessary? young people should be ignored or left behind by our society. The Prime Minister: I am very happy to look at the hon. Lady’s case, and I am sure the Foreign Secretary Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): May I was listening. Let me take this opportunity to commend take my right hon. Friend back to the issue of hostages? the work that Foreign Office officials do, often unthanked, He will be aware that often when these cases arise, there supporting those who get stuck in different countries is a suggestion that ransoms should be paid. Should and families whose loved ones have been taken hostage. those who advance that case take account of the fact Obviously we are focused on Iraq today, but since I have that the money achieved by ransom is not distributed, been Prime Minister, hostages have been taken in countries for example, among the impoverished citizens of Gaza, 285 Oral Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 286 but used to purchase weapons, to finance the training promoting terrorism, including terrorism affecting our and maintenance of those willing to use them and own country. At the G8, I launched an initiative to try otherwise to advance the malevolent objectives of terrorism? to get other countries to sign up to a very clear doctrine that in the case of terrorist kidnap, no ransom should The Prime Minister: My right hon. and learned Friend be paid. Britain continues with this policy; America is absolutely, 100% right. There is no doubt in my continues with this policy; but we need to redouble the mind that the many tens of millions of dollars that efforts to make sure that other countries are good to ISIL has raised from ransom payments is going into their word. 287 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Points of Order 288

Points of Order feet. He has done so now; I have given him an answer. It is very clear; I think that the House will want to proceed 12.35 pm with its business. Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con): On a point of Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): On a point order, Mr Speaker. In the light of your statement on of order, Mr Speaker. Last week in his column in The Monday, I would be very grateful if you could clarify Guardian, Andrew Sparrow stated that a source close to something, and that is the status of the letter that you you, Mr Speaker, said that most Members of this sent to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister. Given House do not understand the role of the Clerk and that that there is a pause and we cannot anticipate the many MPs believe that the Clerk is just a man in a wig outcome of that pause, what are you going to do, who sits at the Table in the Chamber— Mr Speaker, about that letter? Will you be withdrawing it until after the pause has been completed and decisions Mr Speaker: Order. I ask the hon. Gentleman to have flowed from that, or will it just float around in resume his seat. It is not normal practice to expect the No. 10 until some relevant point? Speaker to comment on any and every media report. I did not see the report, I am not responsible for the Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the right hon. report, and I do invite the hon. Gentleman and Members Gentleman for his point of order. The answer is very of the House as a whole to rise to the level of events. straightforward. It is not for me to withdraw a I think perhaps we can leave it there. recommendation that was agreed by a panel, but as I made abundantly clear on Monday afternoon, in the Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): On a point presence of the right hon. Gentleman, I am seeking a of order, Mr Speaker. In my experience, if a democratic modest pause in the recruitment process. I am not assembly is to function properly, it is absolutely vital to pressing that recommendation, and that point has been—or uphold the authority of the Speaker. will be—conveyed to the Prime Minister with crystal clarity; and I am sure that that clarity is something, in a Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for spirit of good will, public interest and the pursuit of what he has said. I simply put it to the House that there consensus, that the right hon. Member for Chelmsford have been many questions, perfectly properly, on this will warmly welcome. matter, both on Monday and today, and those questions have been properly answered. There will be further Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): On a point of opportunities—very properly so—for the House to debate order, Mr Speaker. Why were the recruitment consultants this matter as and when it so wishes. Let us proceed in Saxton Bampfylde prevented from telling the advisory an orderly way. panel, which you referred to, that the candidate Carol Mills was under two investigations by the Senate? And is it not the case that Saxton Bampfylde did not—I BILL PRESENTED repeat: did not—originally recommend that Carol Mills be considered? CIVIL PARTNERSHIP ACT 2004 (AMENDMENT)BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order Mr Speaker: Unfortunately, but fairly predictably, the No. 57) hon. Gentleman is wrong. He is wrong on both counts. Tim Loughton, supported by Mr Graham Brady, I set out the position very clearly on Monday afternoon. Mr Frank Field, Charles Hendry, Caroline Lucas, It was my responsibility and privilege to respond, with Charlotte Leslie, Greg Mulholland, Mr Rob Wilson, courtesy and in detail, to points of order on that Craig Whittaker and Mark Durkan, presented a Bill to occasion. Sadly, it was a disadvantage to the House that amend the Civil Partnership Act 2004 to provide that the hon. Gentleman was not present at that time— opposite sex couples may enter into a civil partnership; and for connected purposes. Michael Fabricant: I was. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Mr Speaker: Not during points of order in my Friday 12 September, and to be printed (Bill 86). recollection, but if he was, he chose not to rise to his 289 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Wild Animals in Circuses 290

Wild Animals in Circuses say they are, but let us look at the ethics of performing animals and compare their conditions and treatment Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order with what we expect for animals in our great zoos and No. 23) wildlife parks. The contrast between their living conditions, the space they have and the environment they occupy 12.39 pm could not be clearer. Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I beg Our zoos and parks engage not only in scientific to move, research, but in preservation and conservation. It is well That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit the use of wild documented how much effort is applied by zoos and animals in circuses; and for connected purposes. parks to recreate the natural habitat of the animals they keep so that they can display their normal and natural I am grateful for the opportunity to raise this issue behaviour as much as possible. We should compare that once more. I am told that the matter was first raised by experience with that of big cats, reindeer, zebra and the hon. Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) other animals that have limited space, have to travel in when he was chair of the all-party group on animal lorries between sites and are afforded an existence that welfare in 1997. It was addressed by the last Labour is in complete contrast to any natural or artificially Government when they passed the Animal Welfare Act recreated habitat. 2006, which laid provisions to return to the issue, as we did in 2009 when we stated we were minded to introduce Earlier this year, a written ministerial statement of a ban but ran out of parliamentary time. As detailed by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) the former DEFRA Minister, the hon. Member for introduced a draft Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny. The Newbury (Richard Benyon), in a debate last year, in this foreword by the new Minister in charge, Lord de Mauley, Parliament, the issue had commanded 120 parliamentary says: questions, over 16,000 items of correspondence, five “For many years wild animals were an integral part of the early-day motions and a Backbench Business Committee circus experience: the only chance that most people would have to debate, ably led by the hon. Member for The Wrekin glimpse exotic beasts from distant lands. Today, by contrast, we (Mark Pritchard). That was based on last year’s summary are fortunate to enjoy world-class zoos, a wide-reaching education of interests and statistics, and there has been continued system and internationally renowned wildlife documentaries, which interest this year. together give children and adults an appreciation and knowledge of wild animals and the environments they come from…This I wish to place on record my thanks to Animal legislation will end the use of wild animals and travelling circuses Defenders International, which has campaigned strongly in this country. It will also help ensure that our international on the issue in various countries, the Royal Society for reputation as a leading protector of animals continues into a new the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Born Free global era.” Foundation and the British Veterinary Association, among The explanatory notes could not be more explicit others, for their encouragement to pursue the matter, about the arguments in favour of a ban. They state: which is unfinished business for many of us. “The use of wild animals in travelling circuses reflects a This is not a party political issue, as my list of traditional but outdated view of wild animals...Captive wild sponsors and the early-day motion list of supporters animals have much the same genetic makeup as counterparts in show. Neither is it only a Back-Bench issue. I am the wild and retain their wild nature and natural instinctive grateful to the DEFRA Minister, Lord de Mauley, for behaviours. Their wild nature and innate value should be recognised and respected. Using wild animals solely for circus performance is meeting me yesterday to discuss it. He indicated that the unbefitting to their wildness and potentially harmful. Government would consider support for the Bill once seen. That should not be a surprise: as he will see when There is little or no educational, conservational, research or he reads it, it is his Bill, or DEFRA’s Bill. As the hon. economic benefit derived from wild animals in travelling circuses that might justify their use and the loss of their ability to behave Member for Newbury stated last year, he wanted to naturally as a wild animal.” draft a Bill to survive “any challenge”. He wanted, he said, The notes also state: “a coalition of the whole House”.—[Official Report, 18 January 2014; “the Government does not believe it is appropriate to continue to Vol. 556, c. 1214.] use wild animals in travelling circuses because: I think that DEFRA officials, with Ministers, have It is not necessary to use wild animals in travelling circuses to succeeded in that regard, but to prove the point, we experience the circus; wild animals are just that and are not need to get the Bill into Committee. naturally suited to travelling circuses and may suffer as a result of being unable to fulfil their instinctive natural behaviour; we Over the years, the measure has been blocked for should feel duty-bound to recognise that wild animals have intrinsic various reasons: because of a lack of time, because it value, and respect their inherent wildness and its implications for was considered to be too much about red tape, because their treatment; and the practice adds nothing to the understanding it was subject to a legal challenge in Europe or because and conservation of wild animals and the natural environment.” it was believed to be either unworkable or unnecessary. I believe that the case has been made for a ban. I find The Government thought that a licensing system might it disappointing that, as Minister of State at the Department address the concerns raised in this place and in the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, I was unable country, but the solution is incomplete. to complete that work, but, given that the coalition has In answer to my parliamentary question of 4 November done so much more on the issue—even publishing an 2013, DEFRA reported that there were still 28 wild excellent draft Bill—it is disappointing that time has animals, including four tigers and two lions, performing not been found for it in the Government’s programme for human entertainment in the UK. The animal welfare for this last year of the current Parliament. I am sure issues have been well documented, but for some they are that the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, not strong enough to warrant a ban. Most of us would Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Camborne 291 Wild Animals in Circuses 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 292 [Jim Fitzpatrick] Opposition Day and Redruth (George Eustice), who is present and for whom I have a high regard, would be happy to lead the [5TH ALLOTTED DAY] Bill into Committee himself. The solution is for Parliament to have an opportunity Energy Company Licence Revocation to do what the last Labour Government and the coalition have so far failed to do, but we must get the Bill into Mr Speaker: I remind the House that, owing to a Committee. Some Members may still be unconvinced, misunderstanding, the two Opposition day debates were but I hope that a proper examination of the short put on the Order Paper in the wrong sequence. clauses in the Bill and the explanatory notes will change The motions will be taken in the order that the that. I know that time is short and that important Opposition intended: the House will debate the motion private Members’ Bills are on the Order Paper to be relating to energy company licence revocation first, and dealt with in the next three weeks, but I should like my the motion relating to infant class sizes second. We shall Bill to move quickly into Committee, so I shall propose begin, therefore, with the Opposition day motion relating that it should receive a Second Reading this Friday. I to energy company licence revocation. know that it is unlikely to secure the House’s approval on 5 September. I should therefore appreciate it if Members who have other important priorities—the hon. 12.49 pm Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): I beg to move, for instance, has a private Member’s Bill, which is due That this House believes that consumers have a right to be on 17 October—would allow the Bill to be passed on a treated fairly and be confident that energy companies will meet subsequent Friday. That would still allow more than their obligations and provide good services; further believes that enough time for the measure to be scrutinised properly, where companies breach these obligations, decisive action should and to pass into law by next April if the House so be taken to put things right and prevent further breaches; notes chooses. that since 2001 Ofgem has imposed at least 31 fines totalling at least £90 million; further notes that despite these financial penalties This issue has been around for at least 20 years. A energy companies face another 11 investigations with four additional minority, including circus owners, may not accept the cases at informal review stage; further notes that the regulator welfare issues, but they are there, and most people do already has the power to revoke energy companies’ licences in accept them. The world has moved on, and it is time to certain limited circumstances, but not where energy companies bring circuses into the 21st century, because wild animals comply with a penalty notice and then commit further breaches have no place in them. We need to use this Bill to of their licence; and therefore calls on the Government to provide achieve that objective, and to ban further use of wild the energy regulator for Great Britain with a new statutory power to revoke energy companies’ licences where there are repeated animals in travelling circuses. instances of the most serious and deliberate breaches of their Question put and agreed to. licence conditions which harm the interests of consumers. Ordered, The Minister for Business and Enterprise is not in his That Jim Fitzpatrick, Jim Dowd, Sir Roger Gale, seat, but I do want to welcome him and the Under-Secretary Mr Philip Hollobone, Dr Julian Huppert, Caroline of State for Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Lucas, Naomi Long, Paul Flynn, Kerry McCarthy, Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), who is Mr Hugh Bayley, Mr Russell Brown and Thomas present, to their new posts and wish them well for what Docherty present the Bill. I hope and expect will be their remaining eight months in office. Jim Fitzpatrick accordingly presented the Bill. This summer, while those who occupy the Government Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Benches succumbed to infighting and some introspection, Friday 5 September and to be printed (Bill 87). my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and my hon. Friends in the shadow Cabinet set out the choice facing the British people at the general election in 2015. We set out a picture of a Britain where public service is valued, but reform is ongoing; where fiscal discipline is matched by fairness; where aspiration is embraced, while no one is left behind; where individuals can thrive and excel, but community solidarity is not forsaken; and where new businesses and new jobs are encouraged, in markets that have fair rules, obligations and rewards. It is to that theme, and to the announcement I made in my speech on the energy market in August, that I wish to return today. The facts speak for themselves. Under this Government, energy bills have risen by over £300—twice as fast as inflation, four times faster than wages and faster than in almost any other country in the developed world. It is faster, too, than under the previous Government; in fact, the rate of increase since the last election has been three times faster compared with the period between 1997 and 2010. Now I know the Secretary of State likes to cherry pick the dates when he compares our record 293 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 294 with his, but even when we only look at the final five undertaken by the CMA, that should not paralyse years of the last Government, in real terms energy bills politicians and those in government from doing the have still risen by a greater amount in each year under right thing. this Government. The reason why bills have risen—and will continue to rise, unless something is done about Mr Davey: If the CMA suggests the right hon. Lady’s it—is that the energy market is broken. proposals are not the right ones and it proposes other ones, will she ignore the CMA and just do what she Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Will not the thinks best? right hon. Lady admit that one of the main reasons why our bills are higher than those in many other parts of Caroline Flint: I really think the Secretary of State is the world and have risen more is the policies introduced clutching at straws here. We believe very strongly—this by the last Labour Government to over-green our energy is why we set out a Green Paper for energy market and leave us short with dear energy? reform—that we have identified and tapped into some answers as to how to reform this market. I have to caution the Secretary of State. He may be surprised, if Caroline Flint: No, I do not accept that. We can he asks his advisers, and perhaps speaks to some of the clearly see that where wholesale costs have fallen the energy companies, how in a number of areas they public as the bill payers have not seen a reduction in welcome some of our reforms. So he needs to be a little their bills—this has nothing to do with other aspects more cautious about putting down Labour’s proposals. asked of these companies in terms of helping to tackle A number of them command respect across this House— fuel poverty or helping to support the renewable sector—but even though it might not be said publicly—and, actually, when wholesale costs have gone up, the energy companies, in the energy sector as well. and in particular the big six, are quick to remind everyone that is because their costs have risen. We Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Would the right hon. expect the reverse to happen when wholesale costs go Lady not concede, however, that part of the problem down. with competition in the energy market was the creation As I said, the reason bills have risen is that the energy of the big six energy suppliers, which of course took market is broken. We have already set out a number of place under the last Labour Government? proposals that we will put in place if we are elected in eight months’ time: an energy price freeze until 2017, Caroline Flint: The hon. Gentleman should also be saving the average household £120; all those over the aware that it was John Major as Prime Minister who age of 75 put on the lowest tariff; a ring fence between took through the changes that enabled those who generate the generation and retail arms of vertically integrated and those who supply to merge their businesses. The energy companies; a pool for all electricity to be traded result was we saw a number of companies—14, I think— in, and greater transparency for trades in the gas market; decide they wanted to generate and supply and the big and a tough new regulator with new powers to police six arose out of that. However, whatever has happened the market and protect consumers, including new powers under Labour or previously under the Conservatives in to protect off-grid households and small businesses, terms of privatising this market, I hope we can all agree and to force energy companies to cut their prices when that the ambitions for how that market would work wholesale costs fall if they do not do it first. All of these after it was privatised have not been realised in the way proposals have been put before the House, but Conservative some of the architects of privatisation perhaps thought and Liberal Democrat Members have voted against they would. As I have said, we cannot let the past each and every one of them. paralyse us from changing what needs to change. That is why we have put forward a number of very practical recommendations, which, sadly, have been voted down The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change by the coalition Government time and again. (Mr Edward Davey): If Labour were to be elected at the next election, would it make the changes the right hon. As to today’s motion, we propose one measure on Lady mentions ahead of the reporting of the investigation which I personally find it hard to believe we cannot by the independent Competition and Markets Authority? agree: a new power for the regulator to revoke energy companies’ licences where there are repeated instances of the most serious and deliberate breaches of their Caroline Flint: Of course some of the issues the CMA licence conditions which harm the interests of consumers. is looking at are the very issues we have been raising for As the motion notes, consumers rightly expect to be the last two to three years, so I have welcomed the CMA treated fairly and to be confident that energy companies review. As I have said in public already, it is working out will meet their obligations and provide good services. quite well, because the CMA review is, in terms of when Where companies breach those obligations, decisive the clock started ticking, scheduled to finish around action should be taken to put things right and prevent December 2015; it has 18 months in which to do its further breaches. So where the regulator has taken inquiry. If we get elected next year, our plan is to action, we have supported it, and where the Government publish a White Paper, having taken through emergency have introduced sensible new measures, such as criminal legislation on the price freeze, and we can see a very sanctions for market manipulation and consumer redress good way that our White Paper and proposals can orders, we have supported them. Indeed, in the case of dovetail with the discussions happening with the CMA. consumer redress orders, we urged the Government to In fact I am very open to the fact that the CMA may go further, because at the moment if any malpractice come up with further proposals that need to be addressed. that happened before 2013 comes to light, the regulator So I do not fear the CMA; I welcome it. But what I do will have no legal power to impose a consumer redress believe very strongly is that whatever reviews are being order. 295 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 296

Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Does my right hon. We have heard about the 31 investigations and about Friend agree that in addition—I repeat, in addition—to the fines that have been imposed. The Secretary of State strengthening the powers of the regulator, we need might claim that this is a sign of success and evidence of some simple consumer protection law so we can make a tough new regulatory environment, but that would be reference to it and do not have to have 18-month true only if there were evidence that companies had inquiries? People are getting ripped off every single changed their ways and that the fines had deterred them winter and these often long inquiries do not help those from breaking the rules again. The evidence shows that people. they have not learned their lessons despite all the previous fines and penalties. Information that I have obtained Caroline Flint: I absolutely agree. One of the problems under the Freedom of Information Act has reveals that with the lengths of these inquiries, and a reason why we those firms are now facing another 15 probes into poor need greater clarity—and, I would suggest, greater deterrent customer service, incorrect billing and other bad practice. factors within the conditions under which these companies No company has a God-given right to be in the market, operate—is that time gets lost. By the time all the to charge its customers and to make a profit just because lawyers have got together and everything else—and by it has always done so—least of all, those that inherited the time, perhaps, that the company is found guilty of millions of customers from before the industry was the offence—we lose momentum in making the change privatised and opened to competition. that needs to happen. Today’s motion proposes a new power for the regulator to revoke energy companies’ licences when there have The timing of the inquiries is important, but a culture been repeated instances of the most serious and deliberate change is also needed. We need to address whether the breaches of their licence conditions that harm the interests inquiries are hampered by the energy companies responding of consumers. Of course, any decision to revoke a too quickly by setting their lawyers on to the matter and licence would have to be subject to due process and to deterring effective action and preventing justice from be consistent with the regulator’s overriding objective of being seen to be done. protecting consumers and promoting a competitive, It is in a spirit of constructiveness that we present our transparent and fair energy market. proposals today. We believe that they are eminently This proposal would build on best practice from sensible, and we hope that the Government will offer regulators overseas. In some parts of the United States, the same constructive approach as we have offered on energy regulators already have the power to revoke an numerous occasions in the past. The best way of protecting energy supplier’s licence. The Pennsylvania Public Utility consumers is not to provide a redress framework—much Commission, for example, has the power to revoke a needed though that is—but to prevent companies from supplier’s licence if it breaks consumer protection law ripping people off in the first place. At the moment, too or transfers customers without their consent. That sends many energy companies operate at the margins of what out the clearest possible message to energy companies the rules allow, because they know that they will often that if they carry on mistreating their customers, their not be caught. Even if they are caught, the penalties do licence will be on the line. That strikes me as a pretty not present enough of a deterrent. Too often, energy common-sense measure. companies seem to view the regulator’s fines as a cost of I hope that the Secretary of State will be able to doing business, and not as a warning that they should support our motion today. I say that because when I get their act together. announced this proposal in August, it was telling that Information provided to me in answer to a written the Government did not put anyone up to discuss it on parliamentary question shows that, since 2001, Ofgem television or on the radio, and that no Minister commented has issued at least 31 fines totalling at least £90 million. on the proposal. All we had were anonymous quotes On top of that are the informal cases that the regulator from a Conservative spokesman and a Liberal Democrat has dealt with, in which, even though no formal fine or source, and between them they could not muster a single notice was issued, action was taken and in some cases good reason not to support the measure. All they seemed financial measures ensued. If we were to add on those to suggest was that Ofgem already had this power, cases, the total would be in excess of £100 million. For which is simply not true. I have discussed the issue of companies with annual global turnovers running into non-financial penalties with Ofgem and written to it tens of billions, that is still some way from the maximum about our proposal, and it has made it absolutely clear fine that the regulator could have imposed. Nevertheless, that this would be a new power. Indeed, the statement it is clearly not an insignificant amount. that it issued on the day of my announcement began “Ofgem is always interested to work with government on any Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Does my right new powers or refinements to existing powers which would help hon. Friend agree that, no matter how large the fines to further protect consumers.” might be, they are likely simply to be passed on to As today’s motion notes, the regulator has limited consumers through their bills and that they therefore do powers to revoke licences in certain specific cases, but not act as a deterrent to the energy companies at all? In they are largely of an administrative nature—for example, fact, fining companies penalises the customer, so we if a company goes into administration, if it gets a need to find an alternative to the fining regime. licence but does not supply any gas or electricity in the following year, or if it does not pay a fine. Caroline Flint: I could not have put that better myself. Mr Davey: The right hon. Lady is making an interesting There is no evidence that the shareholders or managers speech, and I will respond in detail to her proposal. of the companies take a hit in terms of the benefits they Does she think that any energy company in the British receive; the cost of the fines is often absorbed back into market has done anything that would warrant its licence the pot that the bill payers have to pay. being revoked? 297 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 298

Caroline Flint: I will come to that in the next part of concerned. If the regulator believed at the end of the my speech, and I am sure that I shall be able to answer process that there had been a breach of the rules that that question. That would be a matter for the regulator, had been serious and deliberate and had harmed consumers, given its present powers to revoke a licence. At present, and if there had been repeated instances of such behaviour it can revoke a licence only in certain conditions, and I in the past, under our proposals it would have the do not believe that those conditions are sufficient to power to revoke a supplier’s licence in the same way as it meet today’s challenge of making the market more has the power to impose a financial penalty or make a consumer-focused and more competitive. consumer redress order. Within the existing enforcement Crucially, at the moment companies can break the framework there would be clear guidelines for energy rules and get punished for it—in the form of either a companies and a system for appeals. fine or an order to change their behaviour in some In the event that a supplier lost its licence, it would way—and as long as they comply by paying the fine or mean in practice that it was no longer able to operate as following the order, the slate is effectively wiped clean. an energy supply company. Let me make it clear that at At no point can the regulator say, “Enough is enough; the moment, companies wishing to supply and generate you’ve broken the rules too many times and now your energy or supply and distribute energy require separate licence will be revoked.” licences for each activity. We have already proposed that vertically integrated energy companies would have legally Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Is this to separate their generation business from their supply not precisely where the Secretary of State is missing the business, and that as a result any decision to revoke the point? My right hon. Friend will know that since 2001, licence would apply only to the licence in question and 31 fines totalling around £90 million have been imposed, not to other licences the parent company had. There and that another 11 investigations are in the pipeline. Is would be a notice period between the decision to revoke this not precisely the reason that we need to give additional a licence and its coming into force that, by law, must be powers to the regulator—to stop this bad practice? no less than 30 days. During that period, the company would have to arrange for a trade sale for another Caroline Flint: Absolutely. As I have said, the regulator supplier to take on its customers. cannot at any point say, “Enough is enough.” That is Energy companies already market and compete to the key difference between what we are proposing and win new customers. Acquiring new customers in such a the status quo. Our proposal would deal with the problem way would represent a valuable commercial opportunity that we have seen in the past, wherein companies are and avoid the normal acquisition costs. Small suppliers allowed to get away with repeatedly breaking the rules might wish to expand, and if a significant number of in slightly different ways, or breaking different rules, customers were available, new entrants might enter the without fear of losing their licences. market. In the event that a trade sale is not arranged, Clearly, the intention behind this policy is to encourage the regulator has the power to appoint a supplier of last companies to treat their customers better, and the best resort and the rules are in place to ensure that any outcome would be if the power never needed to be used. consumers who are moved to another supplier are But if the regulator did decide to use it, the provision protected. Either way, the supply of energy would continue would need to have a clear legal basis, almost certainly as normal. set down in legislation, in order for it to be exercised This is what I mean by a tough new regulator overseeing with confidence. Otherwise, the threat of legal challenge a market that works for consumers, not just the companies would probably prevent it from ever being used. That is in it. why it is important that this new power should be clearly put into law, just as the existing power to fine a Mr Davey: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for company up to 10% of its global turnover has a clear giving way. She is explaining her policy and asking the basis in law. This would undoubtedly represent a significant House to say that this is needed because of things going addition to the regulator’s powers, and there are important wrong in the market and because energy companies questions about how it would work and about its keep treating their customers badly. I have some sympathy implications, which I want to address before I finish. with that observation and shall make some comments I want to make it clear from the outset that the about it. However, as she is asking for a new power, regulator would remain operationally independent and surely she has to give an example of where the power free from any interference from Ministers. Any decision would have been used in the past. She is saying that the about whether to revoke a supplier’s licence would be power is needed because companies are getting away made by the independent regulator alone, but, like all with things at the moment and that the power would economic regulators in the UK, its functions and powers have been used in certain circumstances, but can she are defined in statute. What we are debating today, give us an example? therefore, is not whether any particular company deserves to lose its licence, but whether the regulator should have Caroline Flint: It is already on the statute book that the power to make that decision, if it thought it necessary. the regulator has the power to fine up to 10% of the We think that it should have that power. global turnover of any company. I might need to go The process itself would also be very similar to the back and check, but I believe that nobody had to prove existing enforcement process, except that, at the end, the that that had been used anywhere else before the power regulator would have the power to revoke a supplier’s was put on the statute book. The Secretary of State is licence. In practice, an investigation of an allegation of following a ridiculous line of argument. In recent years, a breach of the rules would begin and the normal a number of instances have led to investigations and process would follow, with a period of information fines and have shown repeated evidence of ways in gathering, investigation and notification of the supplier which customers have been let down. We are saying that 299 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 300

[Caroline Flint] she believes should cause a licence to be revoked? I am sure that the investor community, which we are so that is not good enough and that there has to be the concerned about, will be interested, and I and others ultimate sanction of companies losing their licence. would be interested in examples of the sort of thing that That is the proposition. The detail needs to be discussed would cause this power to be used. before it is put into law. I have been up front and honest about that, but I find it hard to believe that the Secretary Caroline Flint: Of course, Ofgem already has codes of of State has seriously set his face against the proposition. conduct in which it outlines ways in which it would investigate a company. For example, let us consider Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Is my some of the investigations over the past few years. We right hon. Friend as perplexed as I am about why the have had investigations of mis-selling, billing systems, Government seem to have a problem with the ultimate predatory pricing and disadvantaging certain customers, sanction that we can impose against any company, such as those who have prepayment meters, and situations which is to take away its licence? There is no point in where people had been inhibited from changing supplier. asking what examples we can give, as the Opposition Ofgem already has set thresholds and codes of practice are saying that the power should be there so that if the that enable it to launch a formal investigation and set regulator finds that the breaches are sufficient, the out clearly what areas it is considering, but the problem ultimate sanction is available to it. I am surprised, and I is that if a company is found guilty of any of the am sure that my hon. Friends are, too, that the Government examples I have just given, that can basically result in a are resisting. fine or some sort of consumer redress order. What Ofgem cannot do is revoke the licence. When there are Caroline Flint: I absolutely agree. I can hear the repeated examples of companies failing to take action, Secretary of State saying over and over that it is already when they might have been fined, and when they have available—[Interruption.] Obviously, he has his brief put their hands up and said that they would do the right and has not been listening to my speech. As I have thing only for it to happen again, Ofgem cannot say, “I outlined clearly and as has been confirmed by Ofgem, am sorry, the slate will not be wiped clean. You must the regulator can revoke a licence when a company is account for your activities and that includes when you going into administration or is insolvent or when it fails have repeatedly undermined your customers.” to supply gas or electricity, but what is missing at the As I said earlier, and I repeat this sincerely to the hon. moment is the ability when there are repeated offences Member for Warrington South (David Mowat), it seems that act against the interests of consumers to take the to me that the problem is that when we look at the ultimate sanction and revoke the licence. fines—£90 million over the past few years is no small amount of money to most people, but it is a pittance by Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I want to try to comparison with the overall amount of money these assist the Secretary of State. My right hon. Friend has companies make—it sometimes comes across as though rightly said that this will very much be an option of last paying the fines is just the cost of doing business. That resort—an ultimate sanction—that we hope will never is not good enough. be used, but the fact that the sanction is available should influence the behaviour of the companies and their Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Surely investor backers. When an investor community sees that the real deterrent for any company operating in the the credit rating of a company that has to gear itself energy market is the loss of customers. We should be appropriately in the market is jeopardised by a series of encouraging Ofgem to up the fines and increase the serious breaches, we can bet our bottom dollar that they publicity, because the loss of customers will have an will be banging on the doors of the corporate boardroom effect on investors. saying, “Get your act in order.” It is not a case of when the sanction will be used, as we hope that it will not be. Caroline Flint: I think there has been quite a lot of Does my right hon. Friend agree that what is important publicity about the fines, but what the hon. Gentleman is the deterrent effect, the cooling effect on reckless says is interesting. The rules currently allow Ofgem to decisions in the boardroom, and the good behaviour fine up to 10% of the company’s global turnover, which that that will drive through the investor community into is a lot of money. I am not against Ofgem looking at those companies? whether it should be increasing the amount it fines, but I do think the ultimate sanction is about revoking a Caroline Flint: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. licence, because in such circumstances customers would The question we should be asking the energy companies have to be found a new supplier for their energy. Currently, is, “Why would you be afraid of this?” The question we that is exactly what Ofgem can do if a company goes have to ask the Secretary of State is, “What is his into administration or of it fails to deliver gas and problem?” [HON.MEMBERS: “What is he afraid of?”] electricity to people’s homes. Is it not bizarre, however, What is he afraid of? It is quite ridiculous. that it cannot do this where there have been repeated offences against consumers through harmful customer David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I thank the practices that not only undermine trust in the energy shadow Secretary of State for giving way and applaud market but, more important, make customers pay a the concern for the investor community shown by the heavy price? hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). Apparently, in the past 10 years the venal behaviour of Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I commend my right energy companies has not been sufficient for this power hon. Friend for her leadership on this issue, because to have been exercised. For the purposes of clarity, will that is what this is about: leadership in shaping the the right hon. Lady give an example of what behaviour future, not looking back to the past, as such an approach 301 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 302 is failing our business and domestic energy customers. I others when we have disagreed, but I hope the Secretary commend her for the way in which she has set out this of State will put aside the areas where we do not agree case so clearly, and I am looking forward to the answer and do us the courtesy of engaging constructively with from the Secretary of State. this specific proposal. If he does so, I believe he will see that it is worthy of support and would be to the benefit Caroline Flint: I thank my hon. Friend for his support of consumers in this country. I commend the motion to on so many occasions when we have tried to put forward the House. common-sense, constructive solutions to some of the problems that all in this House know exist in this energy 1.24 pm market. Some will wrongly try to characterise our proposal The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change as somehow anti-business—it is not. For one thing, (Mr Edward Davey): I thank the right hon. Member for businesses, especially small firms, have often been as Don Valley (Caroline Flint) for calling a debate on an much on the receiving end of the energy industry’s important subject: how best can we protect energy sharp practices as households. For another thing, if consumers from unfair treatment by their suppliers? energy companies do not want to be at risk of losing Although there are examples of good customer service— their licences, all they have to do is treat their customers energy companies that are treating their customers fairly and properly. More importantly, there is no such properly—it is hardly controversial to say that there are thing as a market without rules. It is difficult to think of far too many cases where energy firms have let their a more vigorously free-market capitalist economy than customers down badly—the mis-selling, the poor complaints the United States, but regulators there understand that handling, and the poor billing. This is not new; it has a free market works only when there are proper rules to been going on for many years and can just take different ensure competition and fair play. As Matthew D’Ancona forms. Right hon. and hon. Members who have served said recently in his article in The Sunday Telegraph, in this House for a few Parliaments will recall all the capitalism must be scandals of doorstep mis-selling. I recall an elderly “tempered by the recognition that markets exist within a structure constituent coming to my local surgery in 2003 having of laws and a social order.” been appallingly treated and conned by a representative That is what I want for households and businesses in of one of today’s big six. So this is a serious matter and, Britain. despite efforts by the previous Government, this Government’s focus on this issue and the work of Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I Ofgem, it is clear that there are still energy firms that are compliment my right hon. Friend on an excellent speech. treating their customers unacceptably. I disagree slightly with my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), in that this is about the past. Yasmin Qureshi: The right hon. Gentleman gave the When the landed aristocracy of the Conservatives in the examples of mis-selling and the mistreatment of customers. 1860s were controlling the bushels of wheat, it took a Are they not the type of repeat offending by energy Mancunian MP, Richard Cobden, to form the Anti-Corn companies that should mean that their licences could be Law League, which eventually brought in free trade and revoked? a free market so that working Mancunians and working people across this country could afford bread to eat. I Mr Davey: I will explain to the House that under also remind Government Members that that eventually current rules licences can be revoked, and I will deal led to Peel falling. with these issues. I am admitting that this a good debate to have, because there is a problem—nobody is suggesting Caroline Flint: I thank my hon. Friend for his otherwise. But, as always, the question is: what is the contribution, and I have two points to make. First, I best way to deal with that problem? What is going to have found it incredibly helpful, in undertaking this work? What is the best way to crack down on this to brief for the Leader of the Opposition, to take a little punish firms that get it wrong? In essence, we can use time away from the day-to-day things and have a look three tools: competition; regulation; and technology. back at some of the decisions made over many decades, The right hon. Member for Don Valley has focused on both before and since privatisation. That is why I believe regulation, and I want to address her proposal in detail, our proposals in so many areas meet the test of what we for tough regulation certainly has a vital role to play in need today, learning from both what worked and what holding companies to account. However, I regret that did not work in the past. That is good politics as far as I her motion and her speech totally failed to mention am concerned. competition and technology—those were not even The second point relates to what is so exciting about mentioned once. That is a serious mistake, which the the future of the energy market. There was a time when Opposition keep making. For many of the smaller many local authorities were more involved in the delivery suppliers now competing— of energy, and the exciting thing is that as well as having new entrants from other parts of the business community, Caroline Flint: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept there is the opportunity to open up much more the roles that in different ways the Opposition have put forward for local authorities and other community organisations motions for debate in this House where we have engaged to supply and generate energy in the future. To get that with competition? In my speech I mentioned a number right, we have to sort out the corporate problems that of our proposals to create a pool to separate the energy we are facing today. That is the choice today’s motion generation and supply side. Today, we have tabled a puts before the House. motion that tries to identify a particular problem. We We have debated energy prices and the energy market have done that because we think it is the right thing to many times in this Parliament. There have been times do, and we find it hard to believe that we could not get when we have agreed across these Dispatch Boxes and the full support of the House on this one issue. 303 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 304

Mr Davey: I am going to deal with the right hon. I am acutely aware that competition has not always Lady’s proposal, as I have said. However, she failed to worked for the most vulnerable in society, such as deal with one of the comments made by a Government elderly people who might not be internet savvy. Under Member about the importance of competition. Competition my time as Secretary of State, I have placed a focus on does drive good customer service, as I hope she will new business models and new ways of helping such recognise. I wish she had done so in her intervention on people—from collective switching to developing, with me, but she did not. the voluntary sector, citizens advice bureau, Age Concern and so on, new forms of advice with the big energy saving network. Ofgem is also increasingly focused on Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The Secretary how we can ensure that energy markets better serve the of State has given himself the power to change the fuel poor and the less well off. contract for difference allocation framework, which is part of his regulation on competition, and the budget Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): notice as close as 10 days before an allocation round The implication of what the Secretary of State is saying begins. Can he assure the House that the European is that he accepts that competition is imperfect at the Commission regards 10 days as a sufficient period to present time. If we have a situation in which competition determine whether the round is state-aid compliant? If improves and there is better service all round, is he he cannot, what assurance can he give that delays will saying that when an energy company behaves in an not result from this? Crucially, what impact might this appalling fashion they should be able, in all circumstances, likelihood of change and delay have on investor confidence to continue to supply energy to consumers and that to create the very competition he is talking about? there should not be the ultimate sanction of saying, “Your behaviour is so appalling that you no longer have the right to deliver gas and/or electricity in this country”? Mr Davey: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on getting that question into this debate. I say gently to Mr Davey: No, I am not saying that. If the hon. him that on CfD and state aid we have clearance, so Gentleman waits for a second, I will put a lot of presumably the Commission has examined that matter. emphasis on tough regulation, but there needs to be a I have not specifically asked it that question, but it has balance. There needs to be competition as well, because given us state-aid clearance. The way we have proceeded it can often work more quickly and more effectively, with the allocation proposals for CfD is to ensure that and it really hits the firms that are losing customers. we get just that investor confidence, and the fact that we Some of the big six have lost tens of thousands—in are seeing such interest and such investment is tantamount some cases, hundreds of thousands—of customers because to showing that we have it right. we have enabled competition. I accept that things are Failing to focus on competition is a serious mistake not perfect yet, which is why we are working so hard. by the Opposition, because many smaller suppliers competing against Labour’s big six are doing so not just Huw Irranca-Davies: The right hon. Gentleman is on price but on the basis of better customer service. If making a good point in that competition can drive we talk to the independents about their business model, improvement in a number of areas. But badly regulated we hear some of them say that higher quality customer competition leading to market failure is an issue not service is their main competitive edge. The growth of just with the big six but with potential new entrants, competition since 2010 suggests that they are right and which could be doing well at the moment but they could that competition has a key role to play here. From less fail or overstretch themselves. May I suggest to him that than 1% of the market, the small suppliers now have there is a straightforward analogy that any football or more than 7% and it is still growing. Customers now rugby supporter will understand? As rules are imposed have more choice than ever, with 25 suppliers competing on that game, players know that if they do something for their custom. stupid, they will end up in the sin bin for 10 minutes on a rugby pitch. If they do it again, they will be off the Small suppliers provide electricity to 2 million customers, field. If they do a spear tackle, they will be red-carded and they have gained more than 1 million customers in and could be banned for months. If they assault somebody the past 12 months. Clearly, customers are voting with on the field, they could end up in jail. We are not saying their feet when they are not happy with the service they that these things should not be used. Companies will are getting. Yes, we need to make the competition rule want to avoid them being used. The fact that they are work more effectively, which is why we support the there drives good behaviour. independent Competition and Markets Authority in the most profound investigation of British energy markets Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. ever seen. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman intended to be brief. It was telling to hear that the right hon. Lady does not intend to wait to hear the result of the Competition Mr Davey: When a Welsh MP gives a rugby analogy, and Markets Authority investigation. She will prejudge one should be careful. However, I will address that the authority’s report. That is quite a revelation, which point, because I have a lot of sympathy with what the is worthy of more debate. We are not simply waiting for hon. Gentleman is saying. I am grateful that he at least that report from the Competition and Markets Authority. recognises that competition has a role to play. Technology We have already done so much to encourage new suppliers also has a key role to play. The smart meter roll-out, for and to make switching easier, simpler and quicker. We example, will be crucial in tackling some of the issues believe that we must continue to sharpen the competition that consumers complain most about, especially inaccurate tool for consumers, so that when they are poorly treated, bills. Smart metering will help us to address even more they can vote with their feet. problems faced by prepayment meter customers and 305 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 306 it will enable 24-hour switching. So technology and be chaos. It would be bad for the staff, as there would be competition are important in addressing these matters, a significant loss of jobs. It would be bad for consumers, and we need to have them on the table. as they would have to be switched to another company Despite those differences, there is no disagreement or companies very quickly. That is not easy, not even in between parties over the importance of the regulation 30 days, without real difficulties and challenges. If it tool. Strong regulation has a vital role to play in protecting were a large firm that was being closed down, it is likely consumers. The previous Labour Government recognised that only other large firms would be able to absorb that that, and set up Ofgem. Indeed the Leader of the number of customers quickly. The result is that Labour’s Opposition, when he was doing my job, reformed Ofgem big six would become Labour’s big five—genius! to give it more powers to protect the consumer. He chose not to give it the power that the right hon. Lady Caroline Flint: Does the Secretary of State agree that wants, but we will leave that aside for the moment. This the grounds on which Ofgem may revoke a licence do Government recognise the role regulation has to play not contain any mention of consumers, or even the for customers, which is why we have strengthened it. We word “consumer”, or tackle the issue of repeated offences have ensured that when an energy firm is fined and of harmful, abusive behaviour in customer practice? punished, the money does not just go to the Treasury. Customers who have been wronged are now properly Mr Davey: I am going to describe the current system. compensated; we have put money in their pockets. We On the law, the right hon. Lady might want to look at are even introducing criminal sanctions into the regulatory the point where it says—this is where Ofgem may revoke armoury. In the future, if an individual is found guilty a licence— of manipulating the energy market, they could go to “if the licensee fails…to comply with a final order”. prison. I am going to explain that process.

Caroline Flint: Will the Secretary of State admit that Caroline Flint: Does the Secretary of State remember even when fines are imposed, the money does not that I said that of course Ofgem can revoke a licence if always go back to the victims? In some cases, it has gone there is a failure to pay a fine? The problem is that, once to other groups of customers. Will he now correct the fine is paid, there is nothing in the revocation terms himself and say that it does not always go to the victims to enable Ofgem to find against the company if there of the problem under investigation? are repeated offences. That is the clarity that we need in law—not to wipe the slate clean. Mr Davey: Before the implementation of the powers in the Energy Act 2013, some of redress schemes were Mr Davey: The right hon. Lady should allow me to on a voluntary basis and the money did not always go explain the current system, because I think she will find to the individual customers who were wronged. The that a failure to comply with a final order can result, in real intention of the new powers is that money will go to extreme circumstances, in revocation. It is the process the customers. There will be proper consumer redress. leading up to the issuing of the final order that she does That did not happen before. Under us, it is now happening. not seem to understand, so let me deal with it. I repeat what I was saying before the right hon. Lady Under the right hon. Lady’s proposals, the nuclear intervened. This Government are passing rules that option has considerable—potentially large—negative stipulate that people who manipulate energy markets consequences for competition. Just think how the customers could go to prison. No one can accuse this Government would feel. Would the confusion and hassle of a forced of being unwilling to use the regulatory tool in the move make them feel any better? Other companies toughest way possible on behalf of consumers. would need to take on those customers, and that means The right hon. Lady’s motion is not focused on changing tariffs, with consumers possibly paying more. regulation in general, where there is agreement, but on All those issues would need to be worked through at a one new regulation. No, that is not quite true. I apologise, chaotic moment. It is quite right that the current rules Madam Deputy. Her motion states quite clearly that it limit the circumstances in which the nuclear option can is focused on reforming an existing regulation—changing be used, and the process that Ofgem would effectively an existing power. Currently, Ofgem can remove a have to go through before it can be invoked. Indeed, company’s licence. In other words, the regulator can Parliament, under the previous Government, set the bar now shut down a company. The regulator already has for the nuclear option quite high. The list of circumstances the power effectively to say to a company—its employees, in which the power can be used includes a variety of customers, suppliers and shareholders—“What you have things, from the failure of a company to comply with a done is so bad that you can no longer trade.” It is a final order from the regulator, to a company’s making tough power, and rightly so. It is what we might call the false statements when applying for a licence, to a firm’s “nuclear” option, because the consequences are severe not paying a financial penalty. for the customer as well as for the company. The right hon. Lady is proposing to lower the bar for Let us imagine that the nuclear option is taken by the the nuclear option. Labour now wants to amend the regulator. It does not matter whether we use the current existing power, so that the regulator can close down a carefully designed system, which I will describe later, or company for—I quote from the motion— the more arbitrary system being proposed by the right “repeated instances of the most serious and deliberate breaches of hon. Lady. The time spent preparing to use this nuclear their licence conditions”. option will be critical. Under the current situation, How does that differ from the existing situation? Well, because of the ratcheting up, contingency arrangements at the moment Ofgem cannot explicitly close down a could be put in place. If things are done more quickly firm for persistent behaviour; that is true. It cannot go and directly, as the right hon. Lady wants, there could quickly or directly to the nuclear option, as the right 307 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 308

[Mr Davey] Yasmin Qureshi rose— hon. Lady wants. Ofgem would instead have to ratchet Mr Davey: I am going to make some progress. up its sanctions: first, higher fines, and regulatory orders In fact, the current law allows the regulator to do requiring specific improvements in performance by specific more than just fine a company. Let us take an example. dates—ever-tougher, and increasingly damaging for Ofgem can issue provisional orders that require a range the firm. of things, including banning a company from taking on new customers and setting specific behaviour that it Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Is it not financially must meet so that it is no longer in breach of licence attractive to these energy companies to rip the customers conditions, including the standards of conduct. A final off, as they have been, and take the rap on the fingers order can be issued when Ofgem believes that the same from Ofgem, pay the fines that Ofgem imposes on them, licence contravention is likely to continue, and in doing wipe the slate clean and start all over again? so Ofgem can look at the pattern of behaviour of previous breaches. Breaching a final order could then Mr Davey: That may have been the case in the past, trigger a licence revocation, even if that remains an but increasingly it is not because the companies are extreme circumstance. The powers that the right hon. losing customers, the fines are getting heavier and Ofgem Lady is talking about already exist in the form that I is getting tougher. I wish it had been tougher in the have described, where orders happen and improvement past. Just look at the fines that have been levied and can orders are required and they are not complied with. be levied. We have seen fines of £3 million, £4 million, This looks like a regime that is working today and it £10 million, £15 million. Indeed, under the coalition we was not working under Labour. If the Opposition are have seen Ofgem fine more companies than ever before, proposing to lower the bar for a nuclear option, it is and by higher amounts. In the nine years after Ofgem incumbent on them to explain exactly when that would was established, it took enforcement action in just 10 cases. be used, because consumers and businesses need to Since 2010, in four years, we have seen 27 cases, with know exactly where the line is drawn. Perhaps the right fines totalling nearly £51 million. Moreover, because hon. Lady wants to clarify her position now; she failed the current Government wanted to ensure that it was to do so, despite being intervened on by myself and my not just the Treasury that benefited from enforcement hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David action against energy firms that misbehaved, there is Mowat). now money for consumer redress as well—since 2010, nearly £60 million has already been paid out directly to Let me give the right hon. Lady an example. Would consumers, the people who have suffered. Nothing like she have expected Ofgem to have closed npower down that happened under Labour. So under us, as the fines by now? More complaints have been made about npower on a persistently poorly performing firm went up and than any other energy company. It is under investigation. up, so could consumer redress; so could the consumer Does she think her new power should have been used to compensation. revoke npower’s licence? A simple yes or no would suffice, if she is willing to give us an example. She is not, What is the maximum that could be levied? Well, if a and the House will have noted that. firm continually failed to comply, the fines and redress could be increased up to 10% of a firm’s turnover, as the Yasmin Qureshi rose— right hon. Lady said. For a huge energy company such as British Gas, that could equate to a whopping £1 billion —not a figure that any company, however large, can Mr Davey: I will not give way. The right hon. Lady is take lightly. That is what the law currently allows for, seeking to allow Ofgem to close down a firm more and these fines are being used, under this Government, rapidly than it can now. She wants to lower the bar for far more than they were under the softies opposite. the nuclear option. Yasmin Qureshi: Will the right hon. Gentleman give Caroline Flint: Does the Secretary of State agree that way? if Ofgem investigates a company and the company pays the fine, and later the company breaches again the rules relating to fairness to customers in the way that I have Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. outlined, what Ofgem cannot do is revoke the licence? It The right hon. Gentleman is not giving way. has to do another investigation, which may result in a fine, but what it cannot do is take into account past Mr Davey: The right hon. Lady really must tell the history on these issues and revoke the licence where House, would she have pressed the nuclear button yet? there is persistent abusive behaviour to the customers. Is there one example of energy company bad behaviour Does he support the recommendation that we are making that she thinks would have merited her policy? or not? Ofgem could close an energy company down, but it would have to give that firm the chance to improve. If a Mr Davey: When Ofgem has another breach put to it, company ignored improvement orders, Ofgem could it has to look at that breach; it has to look at what has then issue a final order, and if that was ignored, it could happened in that breach. It does not, as I am about to then close the company down under current law. But say, only have the fine/penalty option; it may issue the right hon. Lady seems to want the regulator to be improvement orders, as we are seeing. Let me come to able to intervene before an improvement process has the process, because I think the right hon. Lady’s policy been gone through—before a final order. will not stand up, and she will see that we have lots of powers to help consumers. Caroline Flint indicated dissent. 309 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 310

Mr Davey: Well, if the right hon. Lady does not want them. One million have been rolled out, and consumers that—if she is still expecting a process of orders and have embraced them. I was asked to quote Sir Bob final orders—the House should be clear: she is proposing Geldof at the launch of Smart Energy GB, but I do not absolutely nothing new of substance. This whole debate think I will. I promised to give way to other hon. is a fabrication. But if she does want Ofgem to be able Members. to close a company down earlier—if she does not want Ofgem to go through an improvement process with a Huw Irranca-Davies: The right hon. Gentleman has firm that has behaved badly, as now—she really has to been very courteous in giving way. I suggest to him that tell us how her proposal will work, and how it will be he does not close his mind entirely to our proposal different in substance to the current system, and she has because what he has described in some detail is, in failed to do so. effect, a series of yellow cards, following which there is I do not question the right hon. Lady’s motives or no red card—there is nothing more serious. It is like commitment in initiating this debate; I agree that there saying to a player each time, “You have committed a is a problem, and we both want the same thing. We misdemeanour, and now we will wipe the record clean.” want a consumer-focused market in which bills are kept The result of that would be appalling behaviour, and as low as possible and the energy companies provide a that is what we are seeing in some parts of the energy high-quality service. The question before us is, what is sector. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to keep an open the right way to achieve that? The Government favour a mind because we want an escalation that is clear to balanced approach of competition, technology and energy companies, to consumers and to the investor regulation, giving people the choice to move to new community. suppliers with better service and better deals. Under this Government, the new independent suppliers that Mr Davey: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for we have encouraged regularly top the best-buy tables his measured comments. The process in the law that I and the tables for best customer service. People are have described does end in a red card, and I hope that voting with their feet thanks to our increasing competition when he and the right hon. Member for Don Valley and punishing bad service. The new independents are look at it in more detail, they will see that it can result in growing rapidly, with more than 2 million customers, a red card. I said that I would give way to the hon. and the big six are losing market share every day. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi). We can improve services for customers with technology, bringing the digital revolution to the energy market so Yasmin Qureshi: I thank the right hon. Gentleman that information is more accurate and easier to understand. for giving way. Smart meters could do for energy what the smartphone has done for mobile communications. Regulation is Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Eventually. vital, and we are making sure that we have an active and engaged regulator with the right balance of powers to Yasmin Qureshi: I thank my hon. Friend for that. effect change. There is a basket of powers that we have There seems to be a difference of opinion. We say that strengthened, such as criminal sanctions where appropriate, the grounds on which a licence can be revoked are very powers to fine companies and compensate customers limited and technical. If I understand the Secretary of directly, and the ability to work with companies with State correctly, he is saying that there are much wider poor customer service and help them to improve. As a grounds for revocation. Perhaps the way to resolve the very last resort, with the bar set high, we have the power dispute would be to take advice from expert legal counsel to revoke a licence where there has been a serious as to whether, legally speaking, our position or that of breach of conduct. That is the picture under this the Government is correct, because that way— Government. Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Will the right I appreciate that the hon. Lady waited a long time to hon. Gentleman give way? make an intervention, but it is not a speech. Yasmin Qureshi rose— Mr Davey: I reassure the hon. Lady that we have legal Huw Irranca-Davies rose— advisers in the Department, as does Ofgem. Looked at together, the Labour party’s proposals—not Mr Davey: I am happy to give way to my hon. Friend, just the one before the House today—are clearly designed and then to the other hon. Members. I have just described to upset the current balance between competition and the picture under our Government. regulation. Labour seems to want to rely on more David T. C. Davies: I appreciate that, and the right heavy-handed regulation and even price controls to try hon. Gentleman is making some very good points, but I to micro-manage energy costs and customer service have to pick him up on one thing. If smart meters are standards from the desk of the Energy Secretary in such a good idea, can he explain why the Government Whitehall. We know what the consequences of that are having to sell them to the public using Bob Geldof approach are because we have seen them before: distorted and two cartoon characters? If smart meters are as markets, reduced competition, poorer service and lower good as smartphones, why are the public not willing to investment. go out and buy them? Let me gently remind the right hon. Member for Don Valley of her party’s record in government and, indeed, Mr Davey: Obviously, I am grateful to my hon. in opposition. The Labour Government set up Ofgem Friend for his helpful comments. Smart meters have and decided what powers it would have, and when they been well tested, and there is a lot of enthusiasm for realised they had got it wrong they reformed Ofgem. 311 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 312

[Mr Davey] her and the House that the nuclear option of revoking a licence should remain, but it should remain one of last In opposition Labour decided it would scrap Ofgem. resort because that is in the consumer interest. Now it seems to have U-turned and is looking at Ofgem’s powers instead. First, Labour proposed making Ofgem force companies to track wholesale prices in their retail 1.59 pm prices, something which would destroy forward markets and force energy companies to purchase energy in the Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): The short-term markets. That is bad news for their customers, first thing that would be of interest to the House in this as I demonstrated the last time we debated energy debate this afternoon would be to find out what the policy. It is a recipe for chaos and yo-yo bills, with prices Secretary of State really thinks about this matter. I was as volatile as the wholesale markets themselves, and on at an interesting meeting yesterday when I was privileged average higher than now. to hear the Secretary of State speak. First, he effectively apologised for being a Minister in the coalition— Now the right hon. Lady proposes to lower the bar [Interruption.] I was there; I was listening to it. To put on the most extreme sanction the regulator has—revoking the record entirely straight, what he said was not exactly a licence, putting companies out of business, reducing couched in terms of an apology, rather, “Here are the competition and causing chaos for their customers. One limitations under which I work as Secretary of State has to think very carefully before changing the existing when we are addressing the issues that are coming power to revoke a licence. forward from questions.” Then the Secretary of State said, “Well, of course, I want to cut loose from this; I Caroline Flint: A final order could include a company want to tell you what I would really do were I really a being told to change the telephone script that it uses in Liberal Democrat.” The Secretary of State then had its sales work, and it could comply with that order. some interesting things to say, a number of which I Does the Secretary of State accept, however, that if the agreed with, and I would be interested to hear more same company slightly breaks the rules again or undermines about the Liberal Democrat policy on these matters. its service to its customers in a different way, the present Even in the context of what was said at that meeting guidance to Ofgem does not enable it to show that yesterday, I cannot really believe that one half of the company the red card and deal with repetitive abusive Secretary of State’s hat is entirely comfortable with the behaviour that is slightly different from investigations other side of his hat as he speaks this afternoon. He that have led to sanctions in the past? Does he accept probably really agrees with what is being put forward that that is a loophole in the current system? this afternoon, and the circumstantial evidence for that is to be found in the meandering circumlocutions that Mr Davey: No, I do not because if a situation gets to we heard from him today as to why the present system the point of a final order, the regulator will look at of regulation is pretty dead good and really can do the other behaviours, but it will judge that particular breach. things that the Opposition are suggesting that it ought The right hon. Lady gives one example, but we could to do in any event, even though the Secretary of State give many more. For example, we have heard from accepts that in fact there is not a power in reality to npower and Ofgem today that npower has made the revoke the licence of a supply company or electricity improvements that were required of it. Presumably, if it distribution company, on the basis, effectively, of cumulative had not done so, there would have been another offences. improvement order and, potentially, a final order. Of course, it does not automatically follow that after a final Huw Irranca-Davies: In fairness to the Secretary of order we go to revocation of a licence, but it is a process State, does my hon. Friend suspect that one of the that could result in revocation after the matter has been limitations to which he refers might be the bizarre rule properly investigated. I am glad that I have had a on regulation that is now imposed across Whitehall? It chance to explain that to her. was one in, one out, but now I understand it is one in, So far today the right hon. Lady has not been able to two out. So even if there is good, proportionate, sensible come up with one circumstance in which her proposal regulation, it is damn hard to get it on the statute book. would be used. She has not given us one example of a case in which Ofgem has fined a company and she Dr Whitehead: My hon. Friend makes an interesting thinks that, under her power, Ofgem should have closed point. Given where the regulations stand now, it is quite it down. She has simply failed to make the case for possible that the introduction of the regulation that my reforming the existing power. She has failed to make the right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline case for lowering the bar. I have shown that this power Flint) suggests, would lead to several other regulations exists but it is a nuclear option, and rightly so because being removed, so therefore would meet the golden rule the consequences of its use are so severe. of one in, two out. It is something that I can recommend I say to the House that we have the right balance. We right now to those on the Government Front Bench as a are making progress and have achieved more competition, way of earning additional deregulation brownie points. tougher regulation, more choice and higher fines. People I mentioned the Secretary of State’s circumlocutions are able to punish firms themselves, without having to and made considerable play of the fact that, because the wait for the Government to do something. But when the regulator can undertake a final order, that is the nuclear regulator does punish a firm, under this Government, option. The Secretary of State will be aware—he has there is real financial redress. I thank the right hon. received legal advice to this effect, although I do wonder Lady for giving me this chance to show that not only do whether the legal advisers did this during their lunch we take this issue seriously, but we have acted. I say to hour to assist him—that clause 25(1) of the Electricity 313 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 314

Act 1989, from which the final order derives, before of cumulative bad behaviour—of a company getting Ofgem was introduced but the powers were incorporated away with it, not putting right things required under into its powers, states that legislation, and living to fight another day and do it “where the Director is satisfied that a licence holder is contravening, again. or is likely to contravene, any relevant condition or requirement, he shall by a final order make such provision as is requisite for the David Mowat: I am listening carefully to the hon. purpose of securing compliance with that condition or requirement.” Gentleman and I think he is right about this being an According to that piece of legislation, one is required to additional power. The question that therefore arises is: find out what any relevant condition or requirement is. what problem are we trying to solve with the additional In order to do that, it is necessary to refer to schedule 2 power? In the 20 or 30 years since privatisation, when with the imposing title “Revocation”. We may want to companies have apparently been running amok, in which look there to find out how nuclear that final order is. instances would he have liked the power to be deployed? The final order not only has to relate to the relevant In particular, would it be appropriate for npower no conditions or requirements, it has to stick to the relevant longer to have a licence? conditions or requirements. That is what it says in the legislation. Dr Whitehead: The existence of a power in legislation, As the Secretary of State has said, there are a number and of a regulation attached to it, provides a framework of circumstances under which the licence can be revoked. that companies subject to it must address. It is academic Where someone has not paid their fine and it remains for the hon. Gentleman to ask whether a company unpaid, a final order can be issued. If a final order is would have had its licence removed when it was not issued and the licensee fails to comply with that final subject to the conditions and when the framework did order, which is something of a tautology, that licence not exist—it is just a debating point and not a real can be revoked. But in order not to comply with the challenge at all. final order the licensee has not to comply with something within the revocation schedule in the first instance. If David Mowat: There is a logical error in what the the licensee refuses to pay the financial penalty, that hon. Gentleman says. In the absence of the power, when triggers a final order. Various orders were made under all the energy companies have apparently been running the Competition Act 1998 relating to unfair competition. amok, surely we would have expected them to exhibit If the licensee does not supply any electricity within a the egregious behaviour that would cause the power to year or has stopped supplying electricity to a property, be used. Can he give me an example of that? a final order can be levied against it. If the licensee is unable to pay its debts according to the Insolvency Act Dr Whitehead: The hon. Gentleman will understand 1986 or has an administration order, or a receiver has that saying “enough is enough” when there is not enough been appointed, the licensee may have a final order in the first place is a logical impossibility. The power levied against it. Obviously, if it is insolvent and has provided under the proposal would enable Ofgem to say ceased trading, it is hardly likely to comply with the “enough is enough”. I cannot look into a crystal ball to final order so its licence would be revoked. say what enough might consist of, but a power to deal The revocation schedule, upon which the Secretary of with repeated abuses of licence arrangements and repeated State’s magnificent argument about the final order rests, failures to learn from transgressions that had been put simply states, as has already been rehearsed, that various right but had not led to a sanction being levied would in things could lead to revocation if they are not put right. the long term have more effect on energy companies’ That seems to be the central point that is being addressed operations. this afternoon. These are all things that might be levied against a company and could be put right, and if they David Mowat: Let us be clear: these are repeated are not put right a nuclear option of revocation can be abuses—which, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says, the undertaken. But if those things are put right, case by power takes into account—of a type that we have not case by case, section by section by section, that final seen in the past 30 years. Otherwise, he would be able to order cannot be used. So the entire basis of the Secretary give examples of when the power should have been of State’s argument, that that really exists to enable deployed. Ofgem to revoke a licence for the sort of cumulative issues that we have been discussing this afternoon, Dr Whitehead: The hon. Gentleman misses my central simply falls down. We must accept that there simply is point—that it is difficult to say there has been cumulative no such power in reality, by implication, in legislation abuse of a licence when the licence contains no means or by regulation. of judging that. Without such means, it is difficult to That makes the case fairly simple. Yes, it is true that make those judgments. Members across the Chamber with regard to competition, the problem of losing a will agree that if a company that flagrantly and repeatedly number of customers may cause an energy company to abused its licence conditions faced the ultimate sanction think again about certain of its actions. The possibility of having its licence removed, it would think long and of losing all of one’s customers might make one think hard before sailing too close to that circumstance. rather more seriously about the problems being faced I questioned whether the Secretary of State’s heart is and how to deal with them, in addition to the fact that in the debate. I do not know whether his brief for the some customers may be lost through competition. debate was one of specificity or one of principle. Did it There we have it, in terms of the difference between say, “In the circumstances where it appears we might the present position and a significant change in what have the power, you can walk around the issue by Ofgem would be required to do under the proposals set talking about a final notice”, or, “Under no circumstances out this afternoon. They require Ofgem to take account should the regulatory system for utilities or associated 315 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 316

[Dr Whitehead] Let me make another apology for being one of the Members of Parliament who voted for the Climate bodies enable the removal of licences, so defend the fact Change Act 2008, which underpins some of the issues that the licence cannot be removed under existing alluded to by Members in all parts of the House. As the regulations”? Secretary of State said in his closing remarks, what we I wish to draw attention to another note on compliance want now is cheap energy prices for people. Of course, and ultimate sanctions, which states that we have to take the energy companies to task over bad “licence holders must also, at all times, satisfy the four authorisation behaviour. There has apparently been some confusion criteria. . . insurance, financial fitness, good repute and professional as to whether Ofgem does or does not ultimately have competence. If we have serious doubts about whether you comply the power to remove their licences. He says that it can. with any of these criteria, we may make further enquiries.” He challenged, unsuccessfully, the right hon. Member It concludes: for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) to say under what circumstances she thought that it should have further “If you do not comply with your licensing obligations we will consider enforcement action. This may ultimately result in the powers. She did not wish to reply, so I am inclined to suspension or revocation of your authorisation.” agree with him on this occasion. It does have the power, That guidance is issued not by Ofgem but by the Office in the most extreme circumstances, to remove licences, of the Rail Regulator, so there is a regulatory and it is absolutely right that it should. It is not a power, arrangement—presumably agreed and authorised by though, that should be used lightly. the Government—that enables the ultimate sanction of The real concern is that energy prices are too high. a licence being revoked. Did the Secretary of State The reason is that all of us—or most of us—voted for defend the lack of such an ultimate sanction on the the Climate Change Act, which has forced the Government grounds that it is a bad thing? If so, such a sanction to bring in all sorts of green taxes and subsidies that already exists. However badly the railways are regulated, have pushed prices up. The Government now have a at least regulations are in place that allow for that policy of rolling back some of the green taxes which ultimate sanction. Labour Members enthusiastically supported and which have pushed up prices. There is no getting away from Graham Stringer: My hon. Friend is, as ever, making that. Labour Members will not be able to do anything a profound speech, enabling the House to benefit from about the wholesale price of fossil fuels or of any other his considerable knowledge. Does he believe that the energy source, but they could do something about taxes. people of Warrington South, Southampton, Test and Any sustainable cut in prices to the consumer and to Manchester would dance in the streets at the prospect businesses will have to be underpinned by cutting back of Centrica, British Gas or npower being threatened on green taxes. with the removal of their licences because of their I welcome the fact that the Leader of the Opposition appalling behaviour over the past 20 years or so? and the shadow climate change Minister are trumpeting these issues. That is absolutely fantastic. It plays straight Dr Whitehead: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. into the hands of people such as me—climate change Were I to knock on doors in Southampton, Test and sceptics—that Labour Members are making a huge refer people to the rail regulator’s compliance arrangements issue out of energy prices. They are no longer worried and relate them to Ofgem and ultimate sanctions I about trying to outbid the Government on who has the might get a fairly dusty response. If I were to say to greenest policies but trying to show who is going to them, “Energy companies appear to have been ripping deliver the cheapest energy prices. I say, “Great”, because you off over many years in many different ways and the I know that whoever is in government at the next huge fines levied on them don’t appear to have made election will be able to do that only by cutting back on any great difference, whereas now it is being proposed green taxes. that they may simply be told to leave by the back door with their possessions and not supply you with energy Graham Stringer: I did not vote for the Climate any more”, then they would indeed be dancing in the Change Act, knowingly. Whatever one’s position on streets. I can only say in my defence that I am not a green levies, it is a bit rich for the hon. Gentleman to dancing in the streets kind of politician, but others support a Government who have fixed energy prices for might wish to do that on my behalf. the next decades when nobody can predict the price of energy. That guarantees that people will pay higher We are aware that regulatory arrangements exist for prices or greater subsidies because of the strike price. other industries and that they should therefore exist for The latest predictions of Aurora, a well-known consulting this industry. That is the nub of the issue, and I hope company, suggest that prices are likely to be half what that Members will support that simple, central point on the Government say, and that will mean larger subsidies. the regulation of electricity and gas in the future. Does he still support the Government on those policies? 2.19 pm David T. C. Davies: No, I do not. I have a great deal of respect for what the hon. Gentleman says. I do not David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): I begin with support the Government at all on this particular policy. an apology to the House because, as I mentioned to I think it was a huge mistake— Madam Deputy Speaker earlier, I am meeting a representative of the National Association of Probation Chris Ruane: Minister, take note! Officers trade union in a few minutes. I am sure that Labour Members would not wish that meeting not to David T. C. Davies: Yes, please do take note. People take place. It will shorten my speech considerably, but I should not think I am saying anything now that I have hope that Members will forgive me because it was not said before. Indeed, I more or less said it a few arranged before I knew about the change in timings. months ago at a meeting with the Global Warming 317 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 318

Policy Foundation at which the hon. Member for Blackley David T. C. Davies: The hon. Gentleman is certainly and Broughton (Graham Stringer) was present. I am right about the strike price, but may I remind him that absolutely not going to hide my views on this. his party has supported all sorts of environmental Most Members are completely wrong on energy policy measures? It is no good attacking me for something that because they have all bought into the idea that we are I do not actually agree with. I am quite up-front about going to suffer runaway global warming, and the reality this. I think that most of us have made a big mistake in is that that is not happening. We are being told to look bringing in taxes that have affected home owners and at the evidence. The evidence is clear: there has been no businesses, particularly large-scale manufacturing increase in temperature since 1997. We are told that in companies—cement manufacturers, steel manufacturers, the 1800s we started putting carbon dioxide into the and others. atmosphere, which is of course true, that carbon dioxide is a global warming gas, which is true, and that therefore Tom Blenkinsop rose— CO2 has been responsible for the very small increase in temperature that has taken place since then. However, if David T. C. Davies: Broadly speaking, I am agreeing one looks at the evidence, one can see that there has not with the hon. Gentleman, so I do not know why he is been a straightforward rise in temperatures; they fell trying to pick a fight with me over this. The point is that between 1940 and 1970. That proves that something we should not be doing these things because we do not else was affecting them. As we started to industrialise, have a problem. There has been no increase in temperatures we were coming out of a particularly cool period that since 1997, so our whole discussion is based on a false climatologists call the little ice age, so there had to be premise. some increase in warming anyway. Since 1997, as I said, there has not been any increase Tom Blenkinsop: The point of having a carbon price in temperature. That proves beyond all doubt that something across the EU market is to ensure that countries do not other than carbon dioxide is affecting the climate, and isolate themselves or make themselves less competitive nobody can say what that is. Nobody has been able to in the EU. We had the EU emissions trading scheme tell me what it is, and I have had meetings with people at and then added our own tax, which other EU nations the Met Office and all sorts of other people. It is did not do. That happened under this Government and therefore foolish of us to levy on our industries all sorts was one of the first measures that the Chancellor set of taxes and subsidies that are affecting manufacturing out. and pushing up prices for home owners, and then to try to put all the blame on to the big six energy companies, David T. C. Davies: I am not going to defend that. I as we are doing now, using them as a kind of whipping think there is—shall we say?—a change in mindset boy for the sins of those of us who have bought into the going on at the moment. It is obviously happening in big green theories. the hon. Gentleman’s party as well, and that is why we are having this debate. Front Benchers on both sides of Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Does the hon. the House seem to agree that we should be making Gentleman agree that it is equally foolish to say, “It energy as cheap as possible. Everyone is absolutely right doesn’t matter then. We’re not quite sure why the climate about that. However, we are not going to do that by attacking the big six energy companies. The only way is changing, so we’ll carry on pumping out CO2 and pollutants into the atmosphere without any concern we will be able to bring about a sustained decrease in about what we’re doing to the world, because maybe, energy prices is by reducing the taxes and other regulations just maybe, it’s not having an effect”? Maybe it is having that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. an effect? Is it not equally foolish to do nothing? Graham Stringer: Does the hon. Gentleman agree David T. C. Davies: Maybe it is and maybe it is not. that the most significant point about green taxes, whether Maybe, as the Prime Minister has suggested, we should my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South be looking at dealing with antibiotics and the rise in and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) is right or wrong, diseases that are resistant to them. Maybe we should be is that they are not working? This country and the doing something about a comet strike, which may or European Union are now responsible for more carbon may not happen. Maybe we should be worried about a dioxide going into the atmosphere than they were before. complete economic collapse—which, incidentally, is made Emissions have gone down, but because of imports we far more likely by the policies of spending money that are importing embodied carbon dioxide. These policies we do not have that are propagated by Labour Members. therefore have a perverse effect, whether or not one That is far more likely to keep me awake at night. Of agrees with the global warming theories. course, we should also be very concerned about terrorism. David T. C. Davies: That is absolutely right. I do not Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East wish to stray too far from the debate, but it is interesting Cleveland) (Lab): On the first point, I remind the hon. what has happened in Germany, where people decided Gentleman that this Government have doubled the to get rid of nuclear power stations in order to follow a national debt. On the second point, in relation to industry, more environmental policy and ended up burning large although the level of energy prices is a major issue, it is quantities of lignite, which has increased their carbon actually Government policy that has put energy-intensive dioxide emissions. That proves that these green policies industries in a bit of hole. The carbon floor pricing do not even end up having the consequences that those scheme that this Government unilaterally introduced calling for them want. has a compensation programme that does not come in It is also very interesting that the people who are until 2016. An even bigger issue is the explosion in shouting loudest for such policies are the quickest to non-EU imports into the UK market in the past year. distance themselves from the consequences. With all 319 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 320

[David T. C. Davies] Caroline Flint: The hon. Gentleman is making a very interesting speech. If an energy company is found guilty due respect to Members on both Front Benches, who of persistent and repeated offences against the consumer are pandering to Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace, interest—for example, mis-selling, predatory pricing or the reality is that Friends of the Earth are very quick to giving the wrong advice—and has had fines and possibly attack the Government—they will attack the Opposition a final order but still carries on in a slightly different as well—for anything that increases energy prices to way, does he think that the ultimate sanction should be consumers: they ran a campaign against increased energy for it to lose its licence as a supplier? prices. The Secretary of State is trying to placate these people, but they are never, ever going to support him, David T. C. Davies: According to the Secretary of whatever he does, so there is no point in even trying, in State, that is the ultimate sanction. my opinion. The Secretary of State mentioned smart meters earlier, Dr Whitehead: No, it isn’t. but the energy companies have said they may not work. The Government are spending a vast amount of money David T. C. Davies: That is what the Secretary of trying to persuade every home owner in the country to State said. Who am I to question him on that particular accept smart meters. I am always very suspicious when issue? Governments start trying to persuade me to do anything, particularly if it involves Bob Geldof, a quango and two Caroline Flint: The hon. Gentleman’s response is cartoon characters. The Government have said that helpful, because it shows that he does believe there smart meters will cost £11 billion. I assume that those should be an ultimate sanction. If we can prove that it is costs are relatively easy to predict, because they involve not available, does he agree that there should be a the cost of the meters. Incidentally, I am sure that change to the revocation regime under which Ofgem somebody has done very well out of that. I saw in, I works, to make sure that it is made available? think, The Times yesterday that one of the smart meter companies had posted huge profits. I would be interested David T. C. Davies: The right hon. Lady was asked to know who bought shares in such companies before twice by the Secretary of State whether she agreed that the EU introduced the regulation that brought all of that ultimate sanction exists but cannot be used lightly, this about, but I digress slightly. but she did not respond. I am left wondering why she is The Government have said it will cost £11 billion to suddenly picking on me. I am not the Energy and introduce smart meters by 2020—I assume that that Climate Chance Secretary. I wish I were—we would estimate is reasonably accurate—and that the benefits have some very different polices if that came about, I will be about £17 billion. I have managed to get hold of can tell you. I see that the Whip sitting in front of me is the National Audit Office report, and lo, it is not quite writing loads of notes as I speak. I hope he will feed as straightforward as it seems, because the benefits will back the suggestion that I am open to offers as far as not be seen until 2030, so we are putting in £11 billion the climate change role is concerned. In the meantime, I for a possible £17 billion at least a decade later. suggest that the right hon. Lady deals directly with the Secretary of State. When one looks at how the benefits break down, one sees that 48% of the benefits are due to cheaper costs To return briefly to smart meters, according to the for the energy companies, which I suppose is fairly NAO report the net benefits may not be as high as accurate: there will be fewer visits—and fewer jobs £17 billion anyway; they may be only £12 billion, which probably, but there we are—and a cut in bureaucracy. means that over a period of 10 to 15 years we will save That accounts for about half the cost, but that is still ourselves £1 billion, most of which—or a lot of it—will only about £8 billion-worth of benefits. The rest all come from the fact that people will not be able to afford seem nebulous: 33% of the benefit will be due to people their energy bills, partly because we will have installed using less energy because it will cost more. In fact, smart meters everywhere. therefore, it is being counted as a benefit that people I did not get a mobile phone until about 1997. I got will use less gas and electricity partly because the price one because other people had one and I thought, “That’s of the smart meter will have been added to their bills. A a good idea: I want one.” If smart meters are a good further 8% of the benefits will be due to the fact that idea, my neighbours will get one, I will have a look at it somebody somewhere along the line will pay lower and if everyone down the pub says it is a good idea I will carbon taxes on energy that will not have been used. If get one. What I am suspicious about is the fact that vast that is a benefit, the solution is very simple, isn’t it? amounts of money are being spent on telling me and Don’t bother with Bob, Leccy, Gaz and the quango—just every member of the public that we all have to have one cut the taxes in the first place and leave it all out. by 2020. I find this very difficult to accept. It is not simply due It is not rising temperatures that are causing people to the European Union coming up with a grand plan. I angst at the moment; it is rising energy bills. There am worried that one of the so-called advantages of seems to be widespread recognition of that. I am only a smart meters is that they will allow the big six energy Back Bencher and I am sure I will stay one for many companies to turn off people’s gas and electric remotely. years to come, if the Whips have their way. I have to say Of course, there may be a good reason for doing so if that we all, including me, got it wrong on climate they have not paid their bills, but it may also be convenient change. I have looked at the evidence and the evidence for the companies to do it if they decide that they do is not there to support the policies we have all put in not have enough electricity at a particular moment to place. Although others might not be able to come out feed the grid and therefore cut off people they think are and say, “We got it wrong: the temperatures aren’t using too much gas or electricity. rising,” the fact that we are now talking about energy 321 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 322 bills and increases in costs rather than increases in our home to be supplied. Astonishingly, SSE does not temperature suggests that we are heading slowly in the give any discount for taking both gas and electricity right direction with this particular argument, so I would from it, whereas some companies do. welcome many more debates such as this one. My reading of the increase in the standing charge is that the energy companies fear our getting into government 2.36 pm and imposing an energy price freeze. The increase is a Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I rise to speak in this way of trying to get out of having to lower prices, very important debate because people are telling me because the standing charge will remain. We need to be time and again just how worried they are about this aware that whenever we try to regulate companies, they coming winter. We were very lucky last year because it look for every loophole—every possible way of mis-selling, was a mild winter, but obviously that does not happen using misrepresentation, hiking prices and inventing every year and people are really worried that, yet again, charges—to try to circumvent the rules. prices will go up this autumn by 8% or 9%. We need a really tough regulator with a really tough Over the past four years, there have been horrific ultimate sanction. As my hon. Friend the Member for price rises in this country. Of the world’s major industrial Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) said, if we have only countries, our electricity price rises of 23.5% are second yellow cards and no red cards, with energy companies only to Ireland’s. We are also in the top few for gas, with going back to a clean state every time they behave horrific rises of nearly 34%. That is coming out of the badly, there is absolutely no motivation for them to stop budgets of people who are not earning more, because doing so. All they will do is to try everything they can to wages have scarcely risen. This is a very serious issue for bend the rules every time, because that is in the interests many households, and anything we can do to stop the of their making profits. Doing so will not affect their energy companies ripping people off has to be welcome. shareholders, because any fines they are given are simply put back into hiked prices. It is therefore essential to I would like to see a cross-party consensus whereby have a way to strike off such companies, as would when a good idea is suggested by one side of the House, happen in any other profession that a company was the other side can adopt it. There is no shame in doing continually bringing into disrepute. so. Good ideas can push forward and strengthen legislation so that these companies, which have been getting away Far too many things have happened, such as the with things for far too long, can be brought to book. whole issue of incorrect billing. Companies have taken lots of money from people through direct debits without The problem is that competition is not working effectively, advising them that because their consumption has gone because it is so very difficult to switch. I come from an down, they could pay less. We have seen energy companies area—south Wales—where it is particularly difficult to raking it in and banking huge amounts of cash, but do so. The options are very limited and a significantly only when a very savvy consumer challenges them about smaller number of people are switching. There are huge their direct debit do they do anything about it. We have difficulties, not only in terms of accessing information, seen all sorts of inappropriate ways of billing—making particularly for the large numbers of people, especially it very difficult for people to read bills and to understand older customers who do not have access to the internet, exactly what is being charged for—and of mis-selling. but in terms of which tariffs are actually available and Disadvantaged groups, such as those on prepayment their confusing nature. meters, have very often not been able to benefit. It says something when Which? magazine tells us that It is quite extraordinary that we were told that £50 75% of consumers are actually on the most expensive would be taken off the bill of every consumer, with tariff. What does that say about how the energy companies costs falling on general taxation rather than a green levy are working? It tells us that they are working very well on the energy companies, only for us to find out that the for their shareholders and for making profits, but it is energy companies have absolutely got away with it. the consumer who is missing out. That 75% of consumers Four of them have not even attempted to pass the £50 are paying the highest tariffs does not seem in any way to their fixed tariff consumers—in fact, they refused to to be a fair deal for consumers. do so—and the Government have never chased that up. We must tackle these absolutely greedy energy companies. Wonderful statements were made by the former Minister, Let us be honest about it. What happens when they are the right hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory fined? They have apparently been fined on 31 occasions, Barker), and the Prime Minister about this not being with fines amounting to some £90 million, but who has acceptable, but nothing has actually been done about it. paid that £90 million? It just comes back to the consumer. Many people have not had the £50 back, but all of We do not notice that energy companies’ profits are them who are taxpayers have contributed to general going down; in fact, their excessive profits are announced taxation, from which the shortfall is supposed to be in the press year on year. made up. The energy companies are therefore laughing Consumers are feeling extremely hard done by, all the way to the bank. Unless we have the ultimate particularly when they are trying very hard to cut down sanction of the power to revoke a licence—saying, “You their energy consumption. It seems that the energy can no longer have that customer base or business”—I companies wants to take the same amount of money off suspect that energy companies will continue, as they them year after year, even if they cut back their have done over the past few years, to make the consumer consumption, and that particularly affects low energy pay in this, that or the other way. users. The energy companies often tell us that they need to Energy companies try all sorts of ways of imposing charge lots of money because they are investing in new costs on people. For example, there is a move to a ways of generating electricity. However, we have not higher standing charge. That is the charge we have to seen them rushing to build power stations, so that is all pay, regardless of whether we use any energy, simply for a bit of a smokescreen. Another important reform we 323 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 324

[Nia Griffith] As my right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State said, there has to be a proper procedure. There would be are proposing is the separation of supply businesses and an appeals procedure, a notice period and protection generating businesses, which will make such matters for consumers to make certain that everybody was much more transparent. It will make it much more transferred to an adequate supplier before a company difficult for companies supplying the consumer to pretend ceased to supply their energy. Those things really do that they are somehow raking in vast profits in order to matter. There are models, to which other hon. Members invest when such investments are not taking place. have referred, such as those in the United States where That is why we want to give the regulator real teeth—the such powers work. extra power to revoke licences. Then if companies break This is an additional power that we think is very the rules, they will not just be able to pay the fines and important. It is clear that without it, energy companies carry on, but may be struck off and not allowed to have got away with hiking prices, mis-selling, supply consumers. misrepresentation and ripping off the consumer. We We need much greater transparency in the whole want to see an end to that. We want the regulator to market so that people are much clearer about where have a proper footing that enables it to say, in no their money is going. We are proposing that if we win uncertain terms, “I have the ultimate power. I can the general election next year, we will freeze energy simply stop you trading. You are warned that any prices until January 2017 for both ordinary households further breaches that damage the consumer in any way and businesses. It will save households perhaps £120, will not be acceptable.” That, we hope, would have the and save businesses an average of perhaps £5,000. During effect of bringing the companies to heel and getting a the energy freeze, it will be very important to reform the much better deal for consumers. energy market. We want to break up the energy companies to increase transparency and to separate supply businesses Several hon. Members rose— from generation businesses, with a company having separate licences for each task. Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. Before we proceed, I should point out that, although We will build a structure that allows the regulator to there is plenty of time for this debate and a relatively revoke licences for specific tasks. The obvious case, small number of colleagues have indicated that they which is referred to in our motion, is the power to wish to speak, the speeches so far from the Front and revoke an energy company’s licence to supply consumers Back Benchers have been so extraordinarily long that I if it repeatedly breaches the courtesies and standards we have to ask Back Benchers to please keep their speeches expect them to offer those consumers. We also require a to around 10 or 11 minutes. If they show that courtesy much simpler tariff structure. That is another way of to other Members, everyone who wishes to speak will saying, “This is what we anticipate or expect consumers have a chance to do so. to be able to enjoy”, and if supply companies do not comply with a simple tariff structure, the regulator will 2.53 pm have the power to revoke their licence. It is extremely important to implement the series of David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Thank you, measures that will protect the consumer. We have said it Madam Deputy Speaker. Ten minutes should be fine. is important for the regulator to force companies to The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham lower prices when wholesale costs fall. Time and again, Stringer) told me in an earlier intervention that the people see something on television about wholesale constituents of Warrington South are interested in energy costs falling, and they are very angry that their bill does companies being struck off. What they are interested in not fall. They feel very strongly about it. is lower energy prices and better customer service. They are not interested in posturing, which has made up The Prime Minister said he would make sure that much of what has been said today. companies reduced prices when costs fell, but he has never done so. He said that in opposition, but once in When I first read the motion this morning, I thought, government he never made it happen. It is pretty clear “I wonder whether we will oppose this,” because, on the to us that we therefore need greater powers than those face of it, it is reasonable. I read it quite carefully. Even that exist. One way in which we can strengthen the when I came into the debate, it was not clear to me what regulator is by allowing it to revoke licences. If a company we were opposing. However, what the Opposition have decided not to pass on any falls in wholesale prices that failed to do in the motion is to articulate what the we were lucky enough to have, the regulator could then problem is that they are trying to solve that cannot be revoke its licence. solved in other ways. Apparently, in the past 30 years—in which time, the power did not exist—there have been no The other important area that we want a strong new instances of behaviour that would have required it to be regulator to deal with concerns off-grid issues, which used. It is fair to say that I am looking at the past and are prevalent in rural areas, particularly where new that we should legislate for the future. However, the estates have been built and a supplier has a monopoly shadow Secretary of State was twice asked to give over a group of houses. It is difficult to break out of examples of the sort of behaviour that would cause the such contracts. It is important that the regulator has the power to be used, over and above the behaviour for power not just to tackle off-grid issues, but to revoke the which fines of 10% are allowed. Many of the arguments licences of off-grid suppliers. that I have heard today seem to be arguments for We want to be absolutely certain that the regulator increasing the fines. If customer service is poor and has every single tool in the toolbox that it needs to deal behaviour is inadequate, that should happen. However, with the abuses that energy companies impose on to take a company out of the market and to reduce consumers. Of course, that has to be managed properly. choice and competition is the nuclear option, and we 325 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 326 should be very clear about why we are using it. The least a vote that took place on 4 December, in which the the industry could have expected the Opposition to do Opposition went through the Lobby—I do not know was to give an example of the sort of behaviour that whether the hon. Gentleman did—in support of a would require this power. We have not heard that. Lords amendment that would have accelerated the closure The analogy of yellow and red cards is an interesting of our power stations by bringing in the emissions one, but it is not right. Broadly, we understand what a performance standard for existing stations, rather than yellow card offence or a red card offence is. There is a just for old stations. That was an extraordinary thing to progression. If anything, the analogy gives power to the have happened. The Opposition’s position on coal has, Secretary of State’s point that there is already such in many respects, been extraordinary. progression in the regulation of offences. I want to respond to the remarks of the hon. Member The example of Pennsylvania has been given and a for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) on energy costs. There is a couple of Members have talked about the United States. difference between gas and electricity prices. This morning, I would be interested to hear, in his response to the table 10.2.1 on the website of the Department of Energy debate, whether the shadow Minister can say whether and Climate Change, showed that our gas prices for the Pennsylvanians have invoked these powers. I genuinely 2013 were lower than median prices in the EU. That is do not know the answer to that, but my guess is that not the case for electricity, and I am pleased that the they have not. The Opposition should understand that Secretary of State has asked the Competition Commission the market in Pennsylvania consists of one or two about that. However, if we are to debate these matters suppliers. In such a market, where the problem of losing incessantly on Wednesday afternoons, I think it is worth customers does not exist to the same extent, it is appropriate having a debate based on the facts. I will say this for such powers to exist. It is certainly more appropriate again—hon. Members can intervene on me if they than it would be in our market. believe it not to be the case—this country has among The Secretary of State is right to say that when the lowest gas prices in the EU. If that is the case and if energy companies perform badly, as they have done in a cartel is in operation, as I have said before, it implies many instances—I will not defend that and neither will that it is a pretty bad cartel. Nevertheless, let us investigate any other Government Member—they must be held to the industry and have a look. account. They should be fined more and, if necessary, As I have said about my constituents in Warrington should pay fines of up to 10%. However, posturing and South, what matters are lower prices. The Government coming up with things that sound attractive on the have addressed that, just as the Opposition have made doorstep but that do not work is not the way to deal suggestions. We want to simplify tariffs and encourage with the problem. new entrants. We have acted on green levies, and I think I will talk a little about the need to reduce energy the point made earlier about it all being switched to prices. We do need to keep a cap on energy prices. general taxation was wrong. We want better and faster However, the one thing that we never discuss is the fact switching. that over the next decade, we will have to replace about 20% of our generating capacity. That seems to be of It is true that the market has been sticky—I am not little concern to the Opposition because they never raise defending that and it needs to work better. We must it in these Opposition debates. We have many, many make it easier to switch, and some of the things introduced Opposition debates on energy. It is Wednesday afternoon in the Energy Act 2013 regarding compensation to and I feel quite comfortable being here discussing energy. consumers are to be welcomed. In my view, the Opposition However, we never discuss our generating capacity, even policy has three prongs. One is the price freeze, which though £110 billion of expenditure is needed. has been mentioned. The second is what I would generally By 2017, our capacity margin will be lower than 2%. describe as name calling—describing energy companies Nothing is being built at scale at the moment, other as cartels and referring to price fixing and secret deals. than some nuclear stations that will not fill that gap. All those things are illegal, and if evidence for them Demand-side measures have been brought in by the exists, it should be brought before the courts. These are Government, but they will not be enough. Certain public companies, and directors should go to prison if nuclear stations were closed over the summer because such things are happening. I repeat that if they are of safety concerns. Had that happened in the middle of happening in the gas market, it is a pretty ineffective a hard winter, it would have had a profound effect. I cartel, but let us have a look. would be interested to hear anybody’s comments on The third strand of the Opposition’s policy is that that. they vote for higher prices whenever there is a vote in this place on how we can influence energy prices. Let me Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman is making give some examples of that. In 2011, the then Minister interesting points, as always. Does he agree that the was trying to reduce the subsidy for solar panels—solar Government should look for a derogation from the PV tariffs—from six times grid parity to something like EU’s large energy plant directive, which will close down three or four times grid parity. Solar electricity would some of our fossil fuel plants unnecessarily and exacerbate no longer be six times as expensive as everything else, the situation that he is describing so accurately? but four times as expensive. We had a vitriolic response from the Opposition who said that that would see the David Mowat: I am sympathetic to that view. Countries end of the solar industry and that such subsidies were are acting increasingly unilaterally in the area of climate absolutely necessary. Labour Members trooped through policy. The fact that the Germans, the Dutch and other the Lobby to vote against that policy, which was an countries are building unabated coal power stations at attempt to minimise the amount of subsidy being given scale raises that question. My honest answer is that we and to reduce energy prices. Well, so be it. That is what should look at how things develop. Later, I will discuss happened. 327 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 328

[David Mowat] a short period. That would have accelerated the rapid closure of our coal stations, and apparently for green Similarly, we had a debate on the 2030 carbon target. reasons. That was an extraordinary thing to do, and the Earlier, the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and cost to generation would have been extremely high. As I East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) intervened on the said, I do not know which part of the Labour party did carbon price floor. I will not defend that; my view is that, but it is an odd thing to have done. that it is wrong, but it is also wrong for us to impose Before I conclude, I ask Opposition Members to unilateral carbon targets. These are not EU laws; the reflect on the three policies they are suggesting: the EU is not doing this. Again, however, when the issue price freeze, the name calling about persistent cartels, was debated on the Floor of the House, Labour Members and the fixing of prices and all that goes with that. trooped through the Lobby to oppose it. I can only More importantly, whenever we get a vote in this place, imagine that there are two Labour parties, and I really they should think about the impact of that vote on their believe this to be the case. There is the Labour party up constituents, and stop supporting unilateral action. I do in Hampstead—let us call it the north London set of not agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth the Labour party—which thinks all this stuff is great, (David T. C. Davies) because we need to take our and the other part of the Labour party that represents climate change obligations seriously and follow the EU constituencies where there is energy-intensive industry, on that. However, we do not need to continue acting and where 700,000 people have jobs that depend on unilaterally in the way that we are doing. energy prices. If I were one of those people in the Labour party, I would be a little more sanguine. Tom Blenkinsop: That is one point on which I agree with the hon. Gentleman. The carbon price floor scheme Tom Blenkinsop Will the hon. Gentleman give way? was unilaterally introduced and no conversation was David Mowat: Certainly. I was hoping somebody held with industry. That was introduced by this would intervene. Government. Labour policy, along with our EU colleagues and within a market, was to maintain a framework Tom Blenkinsop: Let us return to the hon. Gentleman’s whereby we would not make ourselves less competitive point on solar panels. By removing the subsidies from than our closest EU competitors. solar panels, the Government decimated the solar panel construction industry that supplied panels to UK homes. David Mowat: If you will indulge me, Madam Deputy We now have massive imports of Chinese products, Speaker, I will answer the hon. Gentleman’s point. I which mirrors what is happening in the Arriba steel have a lot of sympathy with that, but all I would say industry where there has been an explosion of more about that policy, which has now been capped, is that at than 20% in the number of steel products coming from least it resulted in revenue for the Treasury, which I China. That did not exist two years ago. know is generally regarded as a bad thing by Opposition Members. That is part of what we had to do to pay off David Mowat: That is not the intervention I had the debts we inherited. The other green levies that were expected or hoped for. The hon. Gentleman mentioned voted for and that I mentioned are straight subsidies solar PV, but that policy is not directed at Chinese and they do not result in that and are unnecessary in manufacturing, or anybody else. We do not subsidise terms of our carbon commitments. Finally, our carbon British versus Chinese manufacturing, or whatever. per capita and carbon per unit of GDP is lower than the EU average, and a third lower than that of Germany. Tom Blenkinsop: I am chair of the all-party group for the steel and metal related industry, which met yesterday. Several hon. Members rose— We met an industry leader who works at Celsa Steel in south Wales. He commented that what the industry Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. wants is consistency in prices that is long-term and set I remind the House of what I said a few moments ago. out, irrespective of whether prices are lower or higher. Let us aim for 10 minutes please. What we have are fluctuations and the market lacks confidence because it does not know what Government 3.8 pm policy is. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I do not intend to David Mowat: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that detain the House for long because I am not an expert on intervention, and ask him to reflect on the fact that I am energy regulation. However, I want to support the motion also chair of an all-party group—the all-party group because of my constituents’ great concern about the for the UK aluminium industry. Industry wants lower way they have been treated by energy companies and prices and not higher prices regardless of whether those the rise in energy prices. prices are static or not. Perhaps if he were to reflect on This goes back in time, because I was one of those that, he would see that I am right. who agreed to change their supplier after a doorstop The third instance of Labour Members voting, whenever seller convinced me not only that I would be better off they get the chance, for higher energy prices occurred getting both my gas and electricity from one supplier, on 4 December 2013, and this is perhaps the most but that the new supplier—unlike my supplier at the interesting example. We heard earlier about the closure time—would not raise its prices. I therefore swapped, of coal stations in this country because of the large and guess what? A few weeks later my new supplier put combustion plant directive. On that day Labour Members up its prices as well. went through the Lobbies to support a Lords amendment I accept that when shoddy practice has been exposed, on the emissions performance standard that would have changes have been made, either by legislation or by required all existing stations to stop burning coal within fining the companies concerned. Clearly the current 329 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 330 powers to fine companies are not working. If they were, time the House did something about it, and that is our companies would not be repeating their offences, and commitment. I look forward to a Labour Government we would not have to continue to fine them time and next May saying, “We will freeze energy prices. You again for exhibiting the same behaviour. cannot continue to abuse consumers like this.” I was confused by the Secretary of State’s speech. He I and my colleagues in the Labour party are not said the regulator had the powers we were asking for, against energy companies, but we are on the side of but then said what we were asking for was wrong. Both consumers. Fines are not stopping the abuses by companies cannot be true. I can only assume, therefore, either that and simply get passed on to the consumer anyway. he is protecting energy companies and their abusive Surely, it makes sense to provide the regulator with a behaviour, rather than getting a grip, or that he has power to revoke the licence of energy companies responsible been misled about what is in place and what we are for deliberate and repeated breaches of licence conditions asking for. It seems the Government think it okay for that harm the interests of consumers. Good companies energy companies to break the rules again and again have nothing to fear; bad ones will have to change their and for the supplier to pay the fine and wipe the slate practices or face the ultimate sanction. I believe the clean. Why will he not agree that a company that motion should be supported by both sides of the House. persistently breaks the rules should know that its licence is on the line? The Pennsylvania Public Utility Commission 3.14 pm has the power to revoke a supplier’s licence when it breaks consumer protection law. In April, its chairman, Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I rise to Robert Powelson, warned that as many as seven suppliers speak because South Derbyshire is one of the fastest could lose their licence as a result of unscrupulous or growing districts in the whole of the east midlands, and fraudulent business practices. Why will the Government probably in the midlands and the whole country. One not agree that that is exactly the sort of tough regulatory thing driving that growth in our economy is the massive approach that my constituents and every other consumer manufacturing in our patch, and that is reflected in our in Britain would benefit from? need for more energy provision. We have given planning permission for two new power stations, and lots of As others have said, over the past 13 years, the conversations are being had with the people who are regulator has imposed at least 31 fines worth at least going to build them—some of the companies have been £90 million, and more than a dozen investigations are mentioned already, but others are new. still on the stocks. If fines alone are not enough of a deterrent to make energy companies treat their customers Why put at risk that growth and new build, those fairly, we need to take further action. Why should jobs, that fantastically efficiently produced new energy, energy companies be able to behave in the same way that amazing amount of new income and regeneration, time and again and only face the same fines? If the this amazing opportunity for new jobs and greater Secretary of State is correct that such a company could investment and confidence in an area with a superb have its licence revoked, why does he oppose our motion history of coal production—not to mention the industries explicitly stating that a company treating its consumers that went with it, such as clay, potteries and so on? Now poorly could have its revoked? I do not understand his we have car and other manufacturing industries, food opposition. If he says the power exists, why does he and engineering industries—Rolls-Royce, JCB, Futaba; oppose an explicit reference to it? I can only conclude I could name so many, but I do not need to. Why risk all that a company continuing to abuse its customers would that by dangling this carrot of super new regulation? not have its licence revoked under the current system. Why put at risk this incredible opportunity for new investment in South Derbyshire? “Nothing happened in The Government hide behind the power of the consumer 13 years. We didn’t get it right then. You’ve had four to swap supplier. First, not all consumers can swap. If years and you haven’t got it right either”—that is the they are in debt, they cannot switch unless they pay off sort of tit-for-tat gesture politics that business people their debt, but if they could pay off their debt, they do not understand and which makes them so angry. would not be in debt, so that seems to be nonsense. Perhaps more importantly, if we do not have robust Julie Hilling: I do not understand the hon. Lady’s policies to stop such behaviour, how can a consumer argument. Is she saying that new companies will not ensure they will not face exactly the same problems with come into the market for fear of losing their licence if their new supplier? Already, some people cannot afford they abuse their consumers? Presumably, no company to heat their homes. A constituent visited me a few wants to enter the market believing it will abuse its weeks ago in my surgery to talk about her situation. She consumers. was recovering from cancer and had chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, but she was terrified of turning on Heather Wheeler: I wish the hon. Lady was speaking her heating because of the exorbitant energy cost. This from the Opposition Front Bench. The difficulty is we woman, who was recovering from a serious operation have not been told in what circumstances the Opposition and had a serious, long-term condition, was sitting in a Front Bench team would impose this regulation. They cold, damp house out of fear of getting into debt. have not given us any examples—[HON.MEMBERS:“Yes, Since the last election, energy bills have risen twice as we have!”] No, no, we have not had a direct example. fast as inflation, four times faster than wages and faster They have been asked two or three times. Will the than in almost any other developed country in the shadow Secretary of State give us some examples? world, which is why we need the price freeze and market reform that Conservative Members reject. Funnily enough, Caroline Flint indicated dissent. the energy companies do not like the notion of a price freeze either—of course, they want to continue driving Heather Wheeler: Apparently not. There we have it up their profits and exploiting energy consumers. It is again. For the fourth time— 331 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 332

Caroline Flint rose— If we are talking about vacuous or tokenistic politics, as the hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Heather Wheeler: Of course I will give way. Wheeler) was, I would like to read out a few things that the Prime Minister has recently said on this question. Caroline Flint: It is not the job of politicians to pick For example, at Prime Minister’s questions in October companies in any area of regulation. It is up to the 2012, he announced that he would be legislating to regulators. As the hon. Lady will be aware, the regulator require energy companies to put all their customers on currently has a power to impose a fine that is 10% of a the lowest tariff, saying: company’s global turnover. It is not for politicians to “We have encouraged people to switch, which is one of the best decide which companies the regulator should fine or ways to get energy bills down. I can announce, which I am sure investigate. We are saying that the regulator should have the hon. Gentleman will welcome, that we will be legislating so a sanction to remove a licence to supply where there is that energy companies have to give the lowest tariff to their evidence of repeated behaviour contrary to customers’ customers”.—[Official Report, 17 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 316.] interests. They already have a code and a threshold The Prime Minister has since repeated that promise setting out what constitutes abuse. 12 times. However, the Government’s own Energy Act 2013 gives the Secretary of State the power to require a Heather Wheeler: The right hon. Lady still has not supplier to change a customer’s tariff only when a got to the nub of today’s debate. I agree with my hon. customer is on a closed tariff. As a result, only people Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat): who are on dead tariffs—which are the most expensive regretfully, this is gesture politics at its worst. I have had and more expensive than the standard evergreen tariffs—will the pleasure of sitting in the Chamber since just before be moved to a cheaper tariff. Based on figures provided 2 o’clock—and that is absolutely fine; it is what we are by the big energy companies, that is estimated to affect paid to do—but I have heard the most vacuous debate I less than 10% of people. If we are talking about meaningless think I have heard in my four years here. gestures or tokenism, I would highlight that as a prime example, but there is more. Caroline Flint indicated dissent. Julie Hilling: Before my hon. Friend moves on, will Heather Wheeler: I thoroughly enjoy the right hon. he acknowledge that if everybody had to be on the Lady’s company outside the Chamber, but this was the lowest tariff, there would only ever be one tariff, which most vacuous debate I have heard in the four years I would always be the lowest, even though it could be have had the pleasure of being a Member. What I want much higher than the current low tariffs? to hear from Members is new ideas. Who knows what might be in manifestos next May, but businesses need to Tom Blenkinsop: Yes. I totally agree with my hon. know that if they are to make major investments—whether Friend. it is American, German, French or Chinese companies building these power stations in South Derbyshire—they In December 2013, the Government announced changes are not going to get hoicked out over some peccadillo. It to green levies on energy bills. The Prime Minister might be the Charity Commission going off on one and repeatedly claimed that that would save all consumers having to be reined in—giving power to quangos is a £50 on their energy bills. He told the House: frightening thing. I think she is genuinely missing the “It is on this side of the House that we have delivered the £50 point about what our constituents want in life. They off bills by rolling back the cost of the green levies.”—[Official want good jobs, steady incomes and good, solid power Report, 12 February 2014; Vol. 575, c. 846.] stations coming online, so that they know what they are On another occasion he said: doing. They do not want threats hanging over them that “we have also cut energy bills by £50 by rolling back the cost of mean that investments will not be made. I am afraid the some of the green measures”.—[Official Report, 22 January 2014; right hon. Lady has made a mistake with today’s debate. Vol. 574, c. 300.] However, much to the Prime Minister’s consternation, 3.19 pm four of the big six energy companies—npower, Scottish Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Power, E.ON and EDF—refused to pass on the full Cleveland) (Lab): Following the excellent speech by our £50 reduction to customers on fixed-price deals. In shadow Secretary of State, this debate wandered into January 2014, the Government said that if the energy the metaphysical question of whether a power of revocation companies failed to pass on the savings of the changes exists or not, and, if it does exist, in what way it is to the green levies, that would not be acceptable. Indeed, demonstrated. The point that those of us on the Labour the right hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Benches have made very clearly—and which will resonate Barker) told the BBC’s “You and Yours” programme outside this place—is that such a power needs to exist that he was unaware that some suppliers were not and that a system of escalation needs to be put in place passing on the reduction and that this “would not be so that certain companies, whether in the energy industry acceptable”. or any other sector of the economy, can be held to Despite that, the Government have taken no action account for their actions and behave within the regulations. to force energy companies to pass on those savings to It is the old philosophical debate between those of us on customers on fixed-price deals, with an estimated 3.8 million the Labour Benches and those on the other side of the households missing out on the Prime Minister’s promised House. We want regulation; they consistently argue £50 saving as a result. Furthermore, the Government’s against it—in particular, prior to the 2007-08 financial own figures show that the energy companies should be crash, when they were asking for less regulation in cutting their prices even further, after the big six saved financial services. [Interruption.] I thought I would just more money than first thought from the reductions in throw that one in to provoke debate. green levies. In their response to the consultation on the 333 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 334 future of the energy company obligation, the Government prices too. Quite frankly, when people find out we are admitted that the changes to the scheme were likely to MPs, it is actually quite hard to avoid a conversation mean that the energy companies would make more about energy prices. People will tell us that they are sick money. In fact, their document, “The Future of the and tired of their bills always seeming to go up when Energy Company Obligation: Government response to wholesale prices rise, but never down again when they the 5 March 2014 consultation”, says: fall. They will tell us some awful stories about poor “ECO companies are likely now to be in a position to make customer service, and they tell us that, when wrongdoing greater savings than they had originally projected in December.” is discovered and bad practice identified, the punishment However, rather than setting out concrete plans for how never seems to deter the offending companies from they would recoup those savings, the Government merely doing it again. That is what we are here to discuss today. invited the energy companies to let them know. Alongside our other reforms—the ring-fencing of the Let us look at another area. Under this Government, generation and retail arms of energy companies, the fuel poverty is most definitely getting worse. The latest open pool for electricity trading and the new regulator annual poverty statistics report shows that the number with real powers to take action—we also believe there of households in fuel poverty is projected to increase to must be powers to ensure that regulatory fines are not 2.33 million in 2014, while the average fuel poverty simply seen as the cost of doing business. Instead, gap—the difference between people’s bills and what intervention from the regulator should ensure problems they can afford—has grown to £480 in 2014. are put right and should act as a real deterrent. The There are a number of areas, which I have highlighted, figures revealed by my right hon. Friend the Member that show where the Government could now be taking for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) are damning. Despite at action far more stridently. The argument being made by least 31 fines being issued by Ofgem since 2001, totalling Labour Members is about having a power of revocation at least £90 million, energy firms are facing a further as a final threat or market check. As I have always 15 probes into mis-selling, poor customer service and said—and as I am sure many of my Labour colleagues other bad practice. By giving real powers to the regulator, believe too—the market makes a fantastic servant, but a and borrowing from the best practice we can see in terrible master. At the moment, the market, in whatever other jurisdictions, we can prevent such poor behaviour dimension and by whatever name—I would probably being repeated. Making clear that we will not tolerate hazard the description “oligopolistic”, rather than “free persistent bad practice, by giving the regulator the market”—is behaving in an oligopolistic manner and ultimate power to revoke licences, will be a substantial needs to be held to account far more appropriately. step towards providing customers with the protection they desperately need and the energy market they deserve. I remind hon. Members that Labour is making that argument, while those on the Government Benches are We have heard some fantastic contributions in today’s arguing for the status quo. Indeed, I would be interested debate. Let me start by responding to some of the to know whether any Government Members would be Secretary of State’s claims. He started out by saying it prepared to engage in a similar debate—not just in this was all about competition. The Opposition of course House, but on the doorsteps in their constituencies— recognise the importance of the role of competition, because I imagine that if their average constituent was but let me respectfully tell him that his job cannot be told about the content of the argument they have been simply to make it easier to switch; it should be to ensure making, they would look at them far more sceptically at that there is someone worth switching to. People do not the next general election. feel that that is happening at the moment. The Secretary of State mentioned smart meters, the 3.26 pm smart meter roll-out and the role of technology. We have offered bipartisan support for that programme, as Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): we can see the benefits, too. He mentioned the need to Three-hundred and forty-five days. That is not the improve and compete on customer service. Of course current average time it takes a new Tory MP to decide we agree with that, and I hope that he will recognise the that they want to stand down from Parliament; it is how benefits of our proposed performance score card for long since the Leader of the Opposition first announced energy companies, so that people can easily see how Labour’s radical plans to reform the energy market and those companies are performing. freeze energy prices while we do it. Yet 345 days on, this Conservative-led Government still cannot offer a credible Apart from that, it seemed from the Secretary of response to our plans. State’s speech that the Government were trying to fabricate some excuses to oppose our policy. At the moment, we The Government started by telling us that switching agree that the regulator can impose a fine or a final was the answer. They have flirted with the idea of order to change specific behaviour—it could be to taking stronger action. They told us they were against change the telephone script or billing method. However, the calls to refer the energy market to the Competition providing the energy company pays the fine off and and Markets Authority, before they eventually changed complies with the order, the regulator has no power to their minds. All the while, the British public have felt the revoke its licence. The obvious problem is that, if companies relentless squeeze of higher energy prices, with no apparent break different rules, or the same rules in a different end in sight, so here we are again. way, providing they comply with any penalty given, the It is true that this is one of many debates we have had regulator can never revoke their licence. By contrast, on the subject of energy prices on the Floor of the under our proposals, even if a company complied with House. I for one make no apology for that. Any of us a fine or a final order, if it carried on breaching the who visits a pub, café or working men’s club or goes to a terms of its licence, that licence would be on the line—a football match or anywhere else will find that the public significant and welcome difference from what applies at out there are more than happy to talk about energy the moment. 335 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 336

[Jonathan Reynolds] The hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) raised a number of issues, to some of which I shall A number of Members tried to intervene to raise return. He specifically mentioned the large combustion specific questions about the scope and application of plant directive, which, as he knows, regulates emissions that new power. Of course revoking a licence would of sulphur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, diesel as well as apply only in cases of serious malpractice and the carbon emissions. The directive was intended to ensure utilisation of the power would, of course, be for the that pollution abatement equipment was fitted; otherwise, regulator to decide. However, it would clearly be a the running hours of the large stations would be limited. back-stop power, much like the current ability to levy I know that the hon. Gentleman has one in his constituency, fines at 10% of global revenues. This is about providing which I imagine is where his interest lies. He will surely a deterrent, which clearly and unfortunately does not recognise that there was a major loophole in the Lords exist at present. amendments in that certain refurbishments were not Today, we have heard many of the Government’s covered. It seems to me entirely reasonable to try to classic lines in response to Opposition-led energy debates. provide a consistent level playing field, which is what we The Secretary of State and the hon. Member for Crawley tried to do in the debate on the Lords amendments. (Henry Smith) claimed that the big six were created I thought my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton under Labour, but Government Members should look West (Julie Hilling) had one of the best lines of the at the facts a little more closely. It is true that, before the debate when she asked how the Secretary of State could big six, there were once 14 electricity supply companies, simultaneously say that the proposed power is wrong but those 14 were regional monopolies—there was no while admitting that it already exists. I am sure that the market and no competition taking place. It was, of hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) course, John Major’s Government who first allowed could have enjoyed the debate. There was considerable vertical integration to occur. Significantly, consumers merit in the debate and she could have enjoyed it. She could not even switch electricity supplier until after the specifically mentioned investment risk and the consequences Labour Government were elected in 1997. for South Derbyshire. I do not follow her line of argument My hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test that stronger regulation of the supply side of businesses (Dr Whitehead) asked us to consider who the Secretary will affect investment in the generation side. Surely she of State really is. I have never considered him to be an would recognise that investment risk as it is normally international man of mystery until now, but that thought understood relates to factors that are outside a business’s will linger. My hon. Friend was forensic in taking apart control. How energy companies perform and treat their the Secretary of State’s case. customers is surely completely within their control, and I am not quite sure where to begin when it comes to they would be at risk of losing their licences only if they the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies). repeatedly and deliberately broke the rules in ways that Let me respectfully say to him on the issues of climate caused serious harm to their customers. If they do not change—without going too far away from the motion—that do that, I cannot see that they have anything to fear. the 10 warmest years on record are clearly those of recent My hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough times. People who express climate scepticism—I am sure South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) wonderfully the hon. Gentleman would not mind me saying this—are highlighted some of the inconsistencies behind Government likely to be those who are relatively sceptical about the policy on quite a few issues. The right hon. Member for powers of big government. The hon. Gentleman probably Wokingham(Mr Redwood) and, indeed, the hon. Members does not believe that making direct state interventions is for Monmouth and for Warrington South repeated the way to solve the world’s problems. He mentioned what has become the siren call from the Tory right—perhaps the smart meter roll-out in that context. If we look at soon to become the UKIP left—arguing that the pressure the countries involved in the UN Intergovernmental on energy prices is somehow related to the conversion Panel on Climate Change—countries as diverse as to renewable energy. I am afraid that those claims do Switzerland, China, Australia, Japan, the USA, India, not add up. The Government’s figures on policies such Germany, Russia and Norway—is it possible or conceivable as the renewable obligation cannot possibly explain the that the scientists from all those countries have got rise in energy bills that we have seen in recent years. together and decided to hoax us in this grand fashion? I Through such policies, we get safety in energy and cannot believe that anyone with the hon. Gentleman’s obtain much greater energy security. What is more, scepticism would accept that position so readily. renewable energy sources have nothing of the price On smart meters, any big Government programme volatility we see in international gas markets. As Dale risks some problems, but if the hon. Gentleman were to Vince, the chief executive of Ecotricity, recently remarked, look at the number of complaints to energy companies “the cost of wind energy simply does not go up.” that result from inaccurate billing, which smart meters will resolve, at the voluntary consumption that the The so-called green taxes that so many Government evidence shows comes about when people are more Members seem so keen to mention are in the main visually aware of their energy use, or at the improvements energy efficiency measures that reduce consumption in social justice, particularly for people who use prepayment across the system, which clearly benefit us all in respect as a method, he will find considerable benefits to us all of the burden put on generation and safeguard, if they in ensuring that smart meter roll-out goes nationwide in work, some of our most vulnerable people. I think that the proposed fashion. should be a feature of our energy system. My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) We have had another good debate on the energy talked about company behaviour, its consistent tendency market today, but once again only Opposition Members not to get better and the need for a strong regulator to seem to be offering any solutions. We believe that the clamp down on companies’ actions. I absolutely agree Government must take stronger action to restore trust with her. and help mend our broken energy market. That would 337 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 338 help to tip the balance back in favour of the consumer, Jonathan Reynolds: I am afraid that I must now give which is exactly where it should be. Energy suppliers, way to the right hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle with the tacit support of the Government, are the ones (Gregory Barker), who is, I believe, the longest-serving in the driving seat at the moment. They are the ones energy Minister for a decade. I certainly cannot allow doing well out of the status quo, while their customers the debate to end without allowing him to intervene are not. Judging by their number and the ones likely to from the Back Benches. come, it is clear that financial penalties are simply not currently enough of a deterrent to bad practice. We Gregory Barker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman have to start putting that right. Inaction and bluster are for giving way. He says that no one would oppose the not enough. digression in solar tariffs. May I point out that the This is a serious and considered proposal—one that entire Opposition Front Bench opposed it, and that already exists in other parts of the world—and it is not their opposition would have forced up energy bills? He enough for the Government to reject it just because may not have been on the Front Bench at that time—it Labour is proposing it. Every time there is regulatory was some time ago—but I am sure that he would have action and every time a fine is levied or Ofgem makes an been among the serried ranks of Labour Members who intervention, we all get asked to respond on the media voted to keep bills higher. programmes, and we all get asked why this keeps happening. If the Government vote against this proposal to create a Jonathan Reynolds: I was there on that day, and I am real deterrent today, we will point out on those programmes, sorry that the former Minister cannot remember that on every occasion where that happens again, that this moment. Let me simply say to him, again, that the way Government failed to provide the measures properly to in which the Government have gone about policy changes hold those companies to account. of that kind has caused terrible damage to important low-carbon parts of our economy. Let us look at what David Mowat: The hon. Gentleman has mentioned has happened quite recently. Let us look at the green me twice, and I have been reflecting on whether I deal for home improvement. There have been quick actually said what he said that I said. At no point did I changes in policy which businesses cannot survive and say that the green levies constituted a big part of energy with which they cannot contend. The same thing happened bills. I merely said that whenever the House had an in the case of the energy companies obligation. opportunity to vote on whether to increase energy prices, the Opposition wanted to go further—for example, Gregory Barker rose— in the case of the accelerated removal of solar subsidies, or on the occasion of that terrible vote on 4 December Jonathan Reynolds: I will give the right hon. Gentleman on a Lords amendment proposing the accelerated closure one more go, although he has not been present during of coal-fired power stations. the debate. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will respond to a specific point that I made in my speech. We have lower than Gregory Barker: May I make one last point? The hon. median gas prices in the European Union. If the market Gentleman says that the digression that we imposed is so “broken”, how has that happened? caused terrible damage. May I point out that since we reformed that feed-in tariff, more than 3 GW of solar Jonathan Reynolds: There is not a tension between have been added? Ours has been among the fastest-growing the pursuit of affordability and the pursuit of decarbonised solar markets in Europe, and it is a legacy of which I am energy supplies—or, at least, there is not a problem that incredibly proud. we cannot resolve. Yes, renewable energy is more expensive than, for instance, coal, on which the hon. Gentleman Jonathan Reynolds: The right hon. Gentleman and I may be particularly keen, but surely that makes the have had this discussion before, and he knows that I am transparency of our energy market more rather than always keen to give credit to the Government for the less important. The need for us to ensure that there is a increase in solar. By that, I mean the Chinese Government. downward pressure on energy prices becomes more of They have done fantastic things to bring prices down, an imperative when we are making that transition. and we in this country have been able to benefit from I am sorry that I did not respond to the hon. Gentleman’s that. point about solar tariffs. No one opposes the digression in tariffs and subsidy structures, but surely he recognises— I will end my speech soon, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me end by saying that if the Government vote against our proposal to create a real deterrent, we will Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con) rose— point out— every time further action is taken—that they did not use the opportunity to give the regulator Jonathan Reynolds: I will give way to the right hon. real power to hold companies to account. Labour candidates Gentleman in a moment. for constituencies up and down the country will make Surely the hon. Gentleman recognises that the way in clear that they support the measures that we propose. which Governments do that is important—and this We will also tell people not just how long we have been Government have been notorious for chopping and discussing these issues, but how long it will be until the changing policy on so many occasions. A business that next general election, because then, and only then, will is trying to invest and to provide jobs in this sector we have a chance to change the energy market, secure a simply cannot continue unless the Government make good deal for customers, and make a switch that will the position clear. truly count—the switch to a Labour Government, a Government who, for once, will be serious about taking David Mowat rose— on the issues. 339 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 340

3.44 pm Amber Rudd: That is an interesting point and one that, in a sense, we have explored earlier, in relation to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy the terms on which a revocation would take place. and Climate Change (Amber Rudd): As usual, we have However, what worries me about the right hon. Lady’s had a wide-ranging debate on energy issues. In the short proposal—which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of time available to me, I shall deal with as many as State has called the “nuclear option”—is that it is possible of the points that have been raised. sudden and dramatic, and would have a very bad effect First, let me refer to the motion itself, starting with on consumers. What worries me is that she is being the facts. Ofgem has issued fines or obtained redress in cavalier with consumers. She will be handing one of the 39 cases; £55 million-worth of fines have been imposed, big six an increase in its customer base without its and nearly £60 million-worth of redress has been obtained. having to compete, and with very little notice. That is That amounts to a total of £115 million. Under the the problem. If she has answers to some of those last Administration, in the eight years following the questions, it is disappointing that she has not set them establishment of Ofgem in 2001, the regulator took out. enforcement action in just 10 cases. Since 2010, Ofgem has taken action in 29 cases, levying fines amounting to Caroline Flint rose— £50.9 million and forcing suppliers to provide nearly £60 million in redress for consumers who have been Amber Rudd: I am going to proceed with my speech. harmed. Only today, it announced that EDF would pay [Interruption.] Unlike the right hon. Lady, I have only £3 million to benefit consumers following complaints of 10 minutes in which to conclude my speech, and I am mishandling. going to continue. The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline An alternative would be to split the portfolio between Flint) and her colleagues may suggest that that is evidence suppliers, but deciding who would get which segment of of increasingly poorly behaved energy companies. I the portfolio would be a time-consuming process and, believe it demonstrates that we now have a regulator again, would raise significant competition issues? And which, in the last few years, has been increasingly prepared what about the impact on individual consumers? Leaving to take action when action is required. It is noticeable them on their same tariff is not likely to be workable that nearly 80% of the total amount of money being under the limited tariff rule—and we should remember paid by suppliers directly to consumers who have been that we now have just four, not the 400 we had under harmed by their actions has arisen from cases settled Labour. Putting them on a deemed contract, however, since 2013. It is no coincidence that it was in the Energy could lead to an increase in their bills; and allowing Act 2013 that we gave Ofgem powers to require energy businesses to keep their same contracts may not be suppliers to make such payments. For the first time, compatible with their new suppliers’ business model. payments are being made directly to consumers. That Our concern, therefore, is that the overall result of a contrasts with Labour’s failed voluntary approach, which licence revocation—the so-called nuclear option—is, at did not support consumers in the same way. least in the short term, likely to be reduced competition and higher bills for consumers. That is why Ofgem only Ofgem now has the ability to prevent suppliers from has the powers to take such a step in the most serious taking on more customers until they have cleaned up cases. What we do not want is Labour’s knee-jerk simplistic their act, an approach that it used most recently to force solutions. This Government are instead focused on npower to improve its billing performance. Following taking real actions that will make a difference. the action that we have taken, we have a tough independent regulator which is willing to act to protect consumers against badly behaved energy companies. Dr Whitehead: Will the hon. Lady reflect on the fact that earlier this afternoon the Secretary of State said The Opposition ask, “Why not give Ofgem powers to this could be done, that there was a nuclear option and revoke licences when companies repeatedly breach the that it could be undertaken? The hon. Lady is now terms of those licences?” It would be right to give such saying that if what the Secretary of State said could be additional revocation powers only if we would be prepared done was done, it would have terrible harmful effects to back their use by the regulator in the circumstances and therefore should not be done. Does she not see set out in the motion. Nothing that has been said today some contradiction in that position? has convinced me that the right hon. Lady and her team fully understand the consequences of a licence revocation. Amber Rudd: I am happy to clarify that for the hon. Someone would need to take responsibility for the Gentleman. The current set-up is that there is an option suppliers’ consumers. That could be one of Labour’s big for the licence to be revoked, but it happens over a much six, taking them on as a whole, but whichever we chose, longer period and is likely to take longer. The concern I we would be handing it a huge increase in its customer have over this proposal is that it is a nuclear option that base without its having to compete. would be so dramatic that it would impact deleteriously on consumers. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member Caroline Flint: Is the Minister aware that the regulator for Don Valley asks how I know that, but she has not can currently revoke a licence if, for example, a fine is made the case to the contrary; that is the concern I have. not paid, if a final order is not complied with, or if a We have strengthened the powers of the regulator. I company goes into administration? There are already have already mentioned the Energy Act 2013 powers procedures allowing a trade sale to take place and other that enable Ofgem to require suppliers to compensate suppliers to be found. Why can revocations not be directly consumers harmed by their actions. We shall applied when there is repeated evidence of harmful and also be giving Ofgem the power to send to jail people abusive behaviour towards customers? found guilty of energy market abuse or manipulation, 341 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 342 in the same way as those who manipulate the financial power is needed while failing—as did her fellow Labour markets face criminal sanctions, but the effective markets Members—to give an example of which company would we need to deliver for consumers are not just achieved be liable to this nuclear option and why. through enhancing the powers of the regulator. The I was delighted to hear from my hon. Friend the Government believe that vigorous competition in the Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) who energy markets is the best way to sustain downward made a powerful speech, as always, about the importance pressure on prices and deliver a better deal for consumers. of investment in energy in her constituency, and expressed I say that this is the Government’s view and I want to her concern that this Opposition proposal is gesture reassure the hon. Member for Southampton, Test politics and would undermine crucial investment that (Dr Whitehead) that we cannot get a cigarette paper we are securing from international investors. between me and my colleague the Secretary of State. We are agreed on the need to oppose this motion. We know The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and what we are doing, and I am sorry to hear that the hon. East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) chose to comment on Gentleman felt the Secretary of State was putting an the difference between our parties regarding regulation. argument he did not believe in, but I want to reassure I cannot let that pass. He had the temerity to refer to the the hon. Gentleman that we are agreed on this. regulation of the banks in 2007. The banks were regulated by the Bank of England for decades until Labour’s The hon. Gentleman endeavoured to clarify the tripartite arrangement, which was an unmitigated disaster. circumstances in which the nuclear option could be If the House needs evidence of the results of Labour’s required by referring to the legal document, but he regulation, it need look no further than the banking decided to take issue with the Secretary of State’s crisis. The hon. Gentleman was also wrong on fuel interpretation—an interpretation he will not be surprised poverty, which is falling, and wrong on the support that to hear that I support. As with his colleagues, however, we are rightly giving to consumers. we did not hear an example of when this nuclear option would be required, and I feel this was the weakest part of what we heard from the Opposition in general. Gregory Barker: First, may I congratulate my hon. My hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David Friend on a fantastic debut at the Dispatch Box? She is T. C. Davies) made some important and interesting going to make a great Minister. She is also absolutely comments about energy prices. I would like to reassure right to draw the House’s attention to Labour’s knee-jerk him about smart meters. I say to him, “Have no fear” reaching for regulation. We on this side of the House because our smart meter programme is part of helping are committed to helping the consumer by creating consumers reduce their usage and be in control of their dynamic competition and crowding in disruptive new spending and, ultimately, of bringing lower prices. entrants, whereas Labour will always reach for the red tape and regulation that are anathema to the real interests of the consumer. David T. C. Davies: If that is the case, why are the Government having to sell this? They do not have to sell other services to consumers, so if smart meters are a Amber Rudd: I thank my right hon. Friend for his good idea, why not let the consumer decide whether remarks. I am delighted to be following on from the they want them? good work that he has done. It is good news that our work to break down barriers Amber Rudd: It is always partly carrot and stick, is it to entry in the retail energy market in order to create not? We have to make clear to consumers what the greater competition has resulted in an unprecedented opportunity is; otherwise, they are going to be reluctant number of suppliers operating in that market. Since to change. However, I am sure that we can, and I hope May 2010, 12 new companies have entered the market, to win over my hon. Friend’s support in due course. challenging the status quo, competing hard with the large established players and offering choice to consumers. The hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) spoke During this period, more than 2 million electricity about her concerns for consumers, and she has done so customers have switched to independent suppliers. The on many occasions. I am just concerned that she feels so big six bequeathed by Labour are being replaced by the strongly about this one motion and feels that the proposal new challenger companies. We are driving competition would be a silver bullet to sort out the problems for in the market, and delivering more choice and a better consumers. I cannot share her view. deal for consumers. In 2010, there were just seven It was a pleasure to hear from my hon. Friend the independent suppliers, all of which had fewer than Member for Warrington South (David Mowat), who is 50,000 customers. Now, there are four independent very experienced in the market in general. He made the suppliers with more than 250,000 customer accounts point that the Opposition’s proposal, although worthy each, compared with zero in 2010. In that year, the of consideration, completely fails to convince because it share of the market held by the independents was has no example and therefore no factual base. In his around 1%, but it now approaching more than 7%. focus on lower prices for consumers, he pointed out we We know that competition is not working as effectively have the lowest gas costs in Europe. He demolished as it should be, which is why we commissioned the first Labour’s energy policy with particular focus on how it ever assessment of competition in energy markets from lets consumers down. the competition authorities. It is also why we support The hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) the subsequent decision of Ofgem, based on a thorough, again focused her rationale on the Labour proposal as evidence-based assessment, to refer the energy markets though it were some sort of silver bullet to rectify the to the Competition and Markets Authority. Tackling entire market. We are taking action to rectify that concerns about competition through a formal reference market and we are making progress. She insists that this process undertaken by the expert authority will provide 343 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 344

[Amber Rudd] Esterson, Bill Meacher, rh Mr Michael Evans, Chris Mearns, Ian consumers, companies and investors with confidence Farrelly, Paul Miliband, rh Edward that the process will be evidence-based, fair, transparent Field, rh Mr Frank Miller, Andrew and free from political interference. Fitzpatrick, Jim Mitchell, Austin Flello, Robert Moon, Mrs Madeleine This Government are taking real action to make a Flint, rh Caroline Morden, Jessica real difference to hard-working households and businesses. Fovargue, Yvonne Morris, Grahame M. We will continue our work to identify and address Gapes, Mike (Easington) barriers to entry and growth, and to provide the right Glass, Pat Mudie, Mr George environment for the investment needed for the future. Glindon, Mrs Mary Munn, Meg We will continue to build on the reforms that are Goodman, Helen Murphy, rh Paul already giving people a better deal on their energy bills. Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa These include taking about £50 off average household Greenwood, Lilian Onwurah, Chi bills, and introducing faster, easier switching and simpler Griffith, Nia Owen, Albert tariffs and bills. We will allow the expert competition Gwynne, Andrew Paisley, Ian authorities to undertake their forensic examination of Hamilton, Mr David Pearce, Teresa Hamilton, Fabian Perkins, Toby the energy markets. We must insist that reform of the Hanson, rh Mr David Qureshi, Yasmin market is driven by facts. We will not resort to the Harman, rh Ms Harriet Raynsford, rh Mr Nick knee-jerk responses that we so often see from an Opposition Havard, Mr Dai Reed, Mr Jamie seeking a headline. This motion epitomises such a response, Healey, rh John Reed, Mr Steve but it would fail consumers, fail the market and fail in Hendrick, Mark Reeves, Rachel what it sets out to do. The Opposition have failed to Hepburn, Mr Stephen Reynolds, Emma make any sort of case in support of the motion, and I Hermon, Lady Reynolds, Jonathan urge the House to resist it. Heyes, David Riordan, Mrs Linda Question put. Hillier, Meg Ritchie, Ms Margaret Hilling, Julie Robertson, John The House proceeded to a Division. Hodge, rh Margaret Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Rotheram, Steve Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): I Hoey, Kate Roy, Lindsay ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Hopkins, Kelvin Ruane, Chris No Lobby. Howarth, rh Mr George Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Hunt, Tristram Sawford, Andy The House having divided: Ayes 214, Noes 298. Irranca-Davies, Huw Seabeck, Alison Division No. 43] [3.59 pm Jackson, Glenda Shannon, Jim James, Mrs Siân C. Sharma, Mr Virendra AYES Jarvis, Dan Sheerman, Mr Barry Johnson, rh Alan Sheridan, Jim Abbott, Ms Diane Coaker, Vernon Johnson, Diana Simpson, David Abrahams, Debbie Coffey, Ann Jones, Graham Skinner, Mr Dennis Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Connarty, Michael Jones, Helen Slaughter, Mr Andy Alexander, Heidi Cooper, Rosie Jones, Mr Kevan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Ali, Rushanara Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Susan Elan Smith, Angela Allen, Mr Graham Corbyn, Jeremy Kane, Mike Smith, Nick Anderson, Mr David Crausby, Mr David Keeley, Barbara Smith, Owen Ashworth, Jonathan Creagh, Mary Kendall, Liz Spellar, rh Mr John Austin, Ian Creasy, Stella Khan, rh Sadiq Straw, rh Mr Jack Bailey, Mr Adrian Cruddas, Jon Lavery, Ian Stringer, Graham Balls, rh Ed Cryer, John Leslie, Chris Stuart, Ms Gisela Barron, rh Kevin Cunningham, Alex Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Mr Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan Tami, Mark Beckett, rh Margaret Cunningham, Sir Tony Long, Naomi Thomas, Mr Gareth Betts, Mr Clive Dakin, Nic Love, Mr Andrew Thornberry, Emily Blackman-Woods, Roberta Danczuk, Simon Lucas, Caroline Timms, rh Stephen Blears, rh Hazel David, Wayne Lucas, Ian Trickett, Jon Blenkinsop, Tom Davies, Geraint Mactaggart, Fiona Turner, Karl Blomfield, Paul De Piero, Gloria Mahmood, Mr Khalid Twigg, Derek Blunkett, rh Mr David Denham, rh Mr John Mahmood, Shabana Twigg, Stephen Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dobbin, Jim Malhotra, Seema Umunna, Mr Chuka Brennan, Kevin Dobson, rh Frank Mann, John Vaz, rh Keith Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Marsden, Mr Gordon Vaz, Valerie Buck, Ms Karen Dowd, Jim McCabe, Steve Walley, Joan Burden, Richard Dromey, Jack Burnham, rh Andy Dugher, Michael McCarthy, Kerry Watson, Mr Tom Byrne, rh Mr Liam Durkan, Mark McCrea, Dr William Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, rh Mr Alan Eagle, Ms Angela McDonagh, Siobhain Whitehead, Dr Alan Campbell, Mr Gregory Eagle, Maria McDonald, Andy Williams, Hywel Campbell, Mr Ronnie Edwards, Jonathan McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Williamson, Chris Caton, Martin Efford, Clive McDonnell, John Wilson, Sammy Champion, Sarah Elliott, Julie McFadden, rh Mr Pat Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Chapman, Jenny Ellman, Mrs Louise McGovern, Alison Wishart, Pete Clwyd, rh Ann Engel, Natascha McKinnell, Catherine Woodcock, John 345 Energy Company Licence Revocation3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Energy Company Licence Revocation 346

Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Tellers for the Ayes: Horwood, Martin Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Wright, David Phil Wilson and Howarth, Sir Gerald Paice, rh Sir James Wright, Mr Iain Bridget Phillipson Howell, John Parish, Neil Hughes, rh Simon Patel, Priti Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paterson, rh Mr Owen NOES Huppert, Dr Julian Pawsey, Mark Adams, Nigel Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hurd, Mr Nick Penning, rh Mike Afriyie, Adam Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jackson, Mr Stewart Penrose, John Aldous, Peter Dorries, Nadine James, Margot Percy, Andrew Amess, Mr David Doyle-Price, Jackie Javid, rh Sajid Perry, Claire Andrew, Stuart Drax, Richard Jenkin, Mr Bernard Phillips, Stephen Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Duncan, rh Sir Alan Jenrick, Robert Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bacon, Mr Richard Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Baker, rh Norman Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Baker, Steve Ellison, Jane Jones, rh Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark Baldry, rh Sir Tony Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus Pritchard, Mark Barclay, Stephen Evans, Graham Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, John Barker, rh Gregory Evans, Mr Nigel Kelly, Chris Raab, Mr Dominic Baron, Mr John Evennett, Mr David Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Sir John Barwell, Gavin Fabricant, Michael Knight, rh Sir Greg Reckless, Mark Bebb, Guto Featherstone, rh Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Redwood, rh Mr John Beith, rh Sir Alan Field, Mark Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bellingham, Mr Henry Foster, rh Mr Don Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reevell, Simon Benyon, Richard Fox,rhDrLiam Leadsom, Andrea Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Berry, Jake Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Mr Laurence Bingham, Andrew Freer, Mike Leigh, Sir Edward Rogerson, Dan Binley, Mr Brian Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Rosindell, Andrew Birtwistle, Gordon Garnier, Sir Edward Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rudd, Amber Blackwood, Nicola Garnier, Mark Lewis, Brandon Ruffley, Mr David Blunt, Crispin Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Dr Julian Russell, Sir Bob Boles, Nick George, Andrew Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rutley, David Bone, Mr Peter Gibb, Mr Nick Lidington, rh Mr David Sanders, Mr Adrian Bottomley, Sir Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sandys, Laura Bradley, Karen Glen, John Lloyd, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Brady, Mr Graham Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew Brake, rh Tom Goodwill, Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Sharma, Alok Bray, Angie Graham, Richard Luff, Sir Peter Shelbrooke, Alec Brazier, Mr Julian Grant, Mrs Helen Lumley, Karen Shepherd, Sir Richard Bridgen, Andrew Gray, Mr James Macleod, Mary Simmonds, Mark Brine, Steve Grayling, rh Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Simpson, Mr Keith Brokenshire, James Green, rh Damian Maynard, Paul Smith, Chloe Brooke, rh Annette Greening, rh Justine McCartney, Jason Smith, Henry Browne, Mr Jeremy Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Smith, Julian Bruce, Fiona Griffiths, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Soubry, Anna Buckland, Mr Robert Gummer, Ben McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Burns, Conor Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Spencer, Mr Mark Burns, rh Mr Simon Hague, rh Mr William McVey, rh Esther Stanley, rh Sir John Burrowes, Mr David Halfon, Robert Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Burstow, rh Paul Hames, Duncan Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Burt, rh Alistair Hammond, Stephen Miller, rh Maria Stewart, Bob Burt, Lorely Hancock, rh Matthew Mills, Nigel Stewart, Iain Byles, Dan Hancock, Mr Mike Milton, Anne Stewart, Rory Cable, rh Vince Hands, rh Greg Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Streeter, Mr Gary Cairns, Alun Harper, Mr Mark Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel Carmichael, Neil Harrington, Richard Morgan, rh Nicky Stuart, Mr Graham Cash, Sir William Harris, Rebecca Morris, David Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Chishti, Rehman Hart, Simon Morris, James Sturdy, Julian Clark, rh Greg Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mosley, Stephen Swales, Ian Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hayes, rh Mr John Mowat, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heald, Sir Oliver Mulholland, Greg Syms, Mr Robert Collins, Damian Heath, Mr David Munt, Tessa Teather, Sarah Colvile, Oliver Heaton-Harris, Chris Murray, Sheryll Thornton, Mike Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Murrison, Dr Andrew Timpson, Mr Edward Davey, rh Mr Edward Hendry, Charles Neill, Robert Tomlinson, Justin Davies, David T. C. Herbert, rh Nick Newmark, Mr Brooks Tredinnick, David (Monmouth) Hinds, Damian Nokes, Caroline Truss, rh Elizabeth Davies, Glyn Hoban, Mr Mark Norman, Jesse Turner, Mr Andrew Davies, Philip Hollingbery, George Nuttall, Mr David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Davis, rh Mr David Hollobone, Mr Philip Offord, Dr Matthew Uppal, Paul de Bois, Nick Holloway, Mr Adam Ollerenshaw, Eric Vickers, Martin Dinenage, Caroline Hopkins, Kris Opperman, Guy Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa 347 Energy Company Licence Revocation 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 348

Walker, Mr Charles Williams, Stephen Infant Class Sizes Wallace, Mr Ben Williamson, Gavin Ward, Mr David Willott, Jenny 4.16 pm Watkinson, Dame Angela Wilson, Mr Rob Weatherley, Mike Wollaston, Dr Sarah Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): I beg Webb, rh Steve Wright, rh Jeremy to move, Wharton, James Wright, Simon Wheeler, Heather That this House notes that the number of infants taught in Yeo, Mr Tim classes of over 30 has risen by 200 per cent since 2010, to over Whittaker, Craig Young, rh Sir George 93,000 children; also notes that the Government relaxed the rules Whittingdale, Mr John Zahawi, Nadhim on infant class sizes; further notes that the Conservative Party Wiggin, Bill manifesto in 2010 pledged to create small schools with smaller Willetts, rh Mr David Tellers for the Noes: class sizes; believes that the Government’s decision to prioritise Williams, Mr Mark Harriett Baldwin and capital spending in areas without shortages of places through the Williams, Roger Mark Hunter free school programme has led to chronic pressures on primary school places and has created classes of more than 70 pupils; and Question accordingly negatived. believes that capital spending for school places should be prioritised to areas with the greatest pressures on places. I should like to open the debate with a quote from a great work of fiction—not “North and South”, which I will come to later, but the Conservative party’s 2010 election manifesto: “A Conservative government will give many more children access to the kind of education that is currently only available to the well-off…smaller schools with smaller class sizes with teachers who know the children’s names”— a point underlined by the Prime Minister himself, who said that “the more we can get class sizes down the better”. That, we were told, was a task absolutely crucial to raising school standards. As the once, twice, three times a Tory schools spokesman, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), the boiled cabbage himself, said back in 2009: “The other thing”— on standards— “is getting class sizes down. Particularly at primary school level. It is really dramatic how big our classes still are compared with other countries”. More than that, he said that smaller schools were important too “so that no child can wander around corridors of a school anonymously”. I know that this Government do not take their manifesto commitments particularly seriously—trebling tuition fees, cutting Sure Start, cutting the education maintenance allowance, top-down reorganisation of the NHS. However, make no mistake: the abject failure of the Conservative party when it comes to infant class sizes is right up there with the most brazen of its broken promises.

Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con) rose—

Tristram Hunt: I am delighted to give way.

Mr Jackson: I thank the hon. Gentleman. I am not sure the Lord Snooty act is working that well. Would he like to take the opportunity to apologise for the 200,000 primary school places that the Government of the party he represented took out of the capacity in the middle of the largest baby boom since the second world war? It inflicted grave difficulties on local education authorities, including my own in Peterborough.

Tristram Hunt: For the record, between 1997 and 2007 the Labour party built more than 1,100 new schools, the vast majority being primary schools, and there are now nearly 200 fewer primary schools than 349 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 350 in 2010. The record speaks for itself, and the people of Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does Peterborough will hold the hon. Gentleman to account my hon. Friend agree that the criterion for building a for his votes. new school should be need? If there is a need for a The figures are truly shocking. The number of primary school in an area, that is where a school should be built. schools with more than 800 pupils has rocketed by It should not be built where there is no need. 381%, so we can forget about the smaller schools with no anonymous pupils and we can forget about knowing Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend is exactly right. As I every child’s name. More and more so-called titan primary shall explain, it is the misallocation of funding—building schools are struggling to educate their pupils, with more places where there are surplus places—that is assemblies in shift patterns, multiple lunch hours and producing this crisis in English schools. expanding class sizes. Head teachers and teachers are The class size and pupil-adult ratio project undertaken doing their best in the most difficult circumstances. The by the Institute of Education has shown a strong number of infants taught in classes bigger than 30 has relationship between small classes and greater achievement. soared to 93,655, a staggering 200% rise since 2010. The researchers identified a clear effect in literacy and numeracy attainment, even after adjusting for other, Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): Does my possibly confounding factors. Pupils entering schools hon. Friend agree that all academic work on education with low literacy levels progressed the most in small shows that the first few years in education are vital to a classes. child’s future performance? What would he say to parents in Warrington, where 840 more children are now in Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con) rose— over-sized classes, an increase of over 1,300% under this Government? Tristram Hunt: I am delighted to give way to the hon. Lady, who is ready to explain to her constituents why class sizes are ballooning in her constituency while Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend is exactly right about money is being misallocated to the free school programme. the academic evidence, and I will come to that shortly. To those of her constituents facing ballooning infant Angie Bray: I think that people in my constituency class sizes, I say that we know the reason. It is a and right across the country are only too aware that misallocation of funding away from basic need funding immigration was allowed to run out of control by the towards a range of priorities that do not support keeping previous Government. It puts enormous strain on class sizes low. infrastructure of all sorts across the country, and clearly Some 14,000 kids are cramped into cattle classes of schools are not immune. One reason class sizes are more than 40, nearly 6,000 are stuffed into classes that going up is the chaotic immigration policy exercised by are plus 50 and, although it is barely believable, last year the previous Government. this country educated 446 children in classrooms containing more than 70 pupils. Is it any wonder that a Netmums Tristram Hunt: We all look forward to the Government survey published last week showed that nearly one in achieving their target on migration—something, I think, five parents think that schools are squeezing too many that will be very far away. children into classes? Why have the Government allowed class sizes to Unlike the parties in the Government, the Labour increase and to damage the education of children in party believes in smaller class sizes because of the English schools? Because they have spent the money academic evidence referred to by my hon. Friend the that should be used to keep class sizes down on their Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones). In small discredited free schools programme—the programme classes, research shows, there is more individual interaction that has brought us the Al-Madinah free school, the between teachers and pupils, more teacher support for scandal of the Kings science academy and terrible learning per pupil, more attentiveness to the teacher results at IES Breckland. and therefore less disruptive behaviour from pupils, and teachers spend more time teaching rather than managing Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Hundreds of parents pupils. in my constituency went through picket lines organised by radical teachers against the free school in Bedford. Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I congratulate my They wanted to give their children a better education. hon. Friend and his team on securing this debate. It is Were they wrong to aspire to a better education for their incredibly important that parents across the country children? Is Labour policy against what they want? know that their child’s experience is not an isolated one and how serious the situation has become. When I read Tristram Hunt: Parents in the hon. Gentleman’s the list of schools with extra-large classes, I was surprised constituency rightly want the best for their children. I to find my own daughter’s school on it. This is happening cannot help thinking that they will not necessarily in schools across the country, and parents are not aware achieve that given that the number of children in primary of how terrible the situation has become. class sizes of more than 30 has increased by 134% in his constituency. I cannot imagine that that will increase Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend is exactly right. It is the attainment and the results that his constituents are the case in Chesterfield, in Warrington, in Peterborough looking for. and right across England. Constituents will want to On 10 May, The Observer reported that the previous know what decisions were made and what spending Secretary of State had raided £400 million from the priorities were determined to allow the situation to get basic need fund used to keep class sizes down to pay for out of control. the free schools programme. The paper reported that 351 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 352

[Tristram Hunt] right that young people coming into class with lower literacy levels have a good working environment in “Gove had secretly taken the money from the Basic Need which to succeed, particularly in the early years. fund…in the face of stiff opposition from the Lib Dem schools minister David Laws.”— Labour will tell every parent who is angry that their infant is being educated in classes of well over 30 that clearly not that stiff an opposition. the fault lies with the Government’s ideological determination to pour money into the free schools Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I am programme. By September last year, the Government sure that the Liberal Democrats in Stockport will be had spent £241 million on free schools in areas with no proud of the record that the number of children in large shortage of school places. The Hawthorne’s free school class sizes has increased by 202%. What does my hon. in Bootle was built in an area with no shortage of Friend say to my constituents in Tameside, where more school places and now faces falling rolls, yet despite than 1,600 young people are now being taught in large being judged inadequate it has received nearly £850,000 class sizes, an increase of 2,567% since 2010, which is an in extra “start-up” cash from the Government. Money utter disgrace? is spent on adding extra places in areas with a surplus of places, while it is withdrawn from areas of need. Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend is exactly right; it is a disgrace. I say to his constituents and to parents in his Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): constituency, as I do across the country, that they The hon. Gentleman’s spin just will not wash with the should vote Labour to make sure that spending is electorate in Leicestershire. The last Government allowed prioritised in areas where it is needed. net immigration to rise to an eye-watering 3.5 million We know from the National Audit Office that two while reducing the number of school places available thirds of all the places created by the free school programme and, during their time in office, Leicestershire’s schools have been created outside of areas classified as having received the lowest funding per pupil in the whole high or severe primary school need. We also know from country. the Public Accounts Committee that a quarter of free schools opened by September 2012 had 20% fewer Tristram Hunt: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his pupils than planned. Most recently of all, the Institute intervention. More work is needed to raise standards in of Education has found that free schools do not even Leicestershire, and one element that worries me is the fulfil their supposed purpose of spreading opportunity growing attainment gap under this Government between to the poorest pupils, particularly when it comes to children who are on free school meals and those who primary schools. are not. If we strip out London from the data showing the achievement of children on free school meals, we see that this Government’s record is absolutely lamentable. Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): We are talking about NAO reports and I sit on the Public Accounts Committee and hope to contribute to this debate some Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): Is my hon. of the points that we have raised. Does the hon. Gentleman Friend aware of the evidence given to the Education recognise that the NAO found that the number of Committee showing that the Government are throwing primary places fell by almost 207,000—5%—between money at free schools where there is no basic need, such 2003-04 and 2009-10? I believe that was a time when as the one in Bedford that is less than half full, yet the there was a Labour Government. number of primary school places needed is growing and class sizes are also growing enormously?

Tristram Hunt: I could repeat the facts about the Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend speaks with great Labour party’s building programme in office. Between wisdom. I did not know that the Bedford school was 1997 and 2007, Labour built more than 1,100 new only half full— schools, the vast majority being primary schools. I am very happy to stand by our record in office of raising Pat Glass: Less than half full. standards and providing places. Tristram Hunt: Less than half full, while there are Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): My over-sized primary classes. The constituents of Bedford hon. Friend is making an excellent speech, pointing out will hold their MP to account for voting for policies that the consequences on the ground of this misallocation increase class sizes in those schools while misallocating on funds. On that point, does my hon. Friend agree that funds. Politics is about choices and priorities, and the my constituents in Blackpool, where the number of Government have chosen the wrong priority. infants in large classes has risen by 300% since 2010, are now suffering a double whammy, not just from that but Mr Sheerman: Before my hon. Friend moves on, will from the extra pressure of transients that seaside and he put a question to Conservative Members: what is the coastal towns have? That can be seen in all of these evidence that larger classes benefit students? I have not figures—Portsmouth up 250%, Medway 415%, Plymouth seen any such research, but I have consistently deplored 600%. Are not this Tory Government and their coalition the fact that the all-party agreement that smaller classes allies failing seaside and coastal towns in this respect? were better for a child has been broken by this Government.

Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend is exactly right. The Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend is exactly right: it is challenge facing seaside towns is often particularly acute so disappointing to see this Government break the in the case of educational disadvantage, so it is absolutely political consensus that Labour worked so hard to right that we focus on smaller class sizes. It is absolutely achieve in 1997. 353 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 354

Labour is committed to ending the free schools The Government’s failure on infant class sizes contains programme and refocusing spending on areas where it many different components—administrative incompetence, is needed most. Our message to parents is absolutely financial mismanagement, ideological pigheadedness, clear: Labour would make a choice, and schools enduring and a refusal to re-examine the evidence—yet it also crippling infant class sizes would be our priority. We speaks to two markedly different visions for the future want to see great teachers, committed parents and innovative of this country’s education. educationists opening new schools under our parent-led academy programme, pioneered by my hon. Friend the Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): Will the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), Gentleman give way? but those schools will have to be targeted on areas with a need for new places. Tristram Hunt: Labour Members want to see a world- We had all hoped for a change of direction from the class and highly qualified teacher in every classroom, new Education Secretary, so I read with great interest studio and workshop. The evidence says that that is the her interview in The Sunday Telegraph, in which she most effective way to boost our children’s attainment. explained how We want to right the wrongs of the Butler Act and offer young people excellence and opportunity in vocational “we have seen the first same-sex marriages take place, which is great.” education. That is what our economy needs most in terms of skills and competitiveness. We want to provide Indeed it is, but why did she seek to prevent it from young people with a rich and rewarding educational happening by voting against the policy? If she really experience that, alongside the academic and vocational thought it was great, she would have supported the basics, also nurtures their character, resilience and well-being. policy. That is what our children need to thrive and survive in a In the interview, the Education Secretary also revealed world that is being transformed by digital technology. that her favourite work was Elizabeth Gaskell’s marvellous In contrast, the future that our new autopilot Education “North and South”—a tale of how a conciliatory, practical, Secretary offers is much the same as the recent past. She confident woman steps in to save the reputation of makes absolutely no pretence at being here to do anything an aggressive, right-wing, Gradgrind-like ideologue. other than implement her predecessor’s vision. That Mr Thornton was a man means growing class sizes, more failing free schools, “who would enjoy battling with every adverse thing he could meet more unqualified teachers, a rising attainment gap, no with—enemies, winds, or circumstances”, local oversight or accountability, fewer opportunities and he quickly finds himself in an epic struggle with the for the forgotten 50%, and no strategy for delivering trade unions. I can see the Education Secretary’s attraction excellence and opportunity in vocational education. It to it. But alas, our modern Margaret Hale is on autopilot, means ignoring basic need and continuing an ideologically determined to repeat the mistakes that got Mr Thornton motivated allocation of capital funding. his unenviable reputation. Nowhere in that interview was a commitment to ending the chaos of the free Mr Rob Wilson rose— school programme, introducing new policies to improve the professional development of teachers, rebuilding Tristram Hunt: The bottom line is this: the Prime the atomised school system, stopping the downgrading Minister has broken his party’s manifesto promise of of apprenticeships, closing the attainment gap, or offering smaller class sizes. He has chosen free schools over basic affordable child care. need, and ideology over reducing infant class sizes. Fortunately, though, in eight months’ time the country Now, this afternoon, news has broken of the Education also has a political choice. Let me assure Government Secretary’s plan to introduce compulsory setting in all Members, as my colleagues will be doing over the schools. Will she confirm that she will rule out compulsory coming months, that we will be telling parents exactly streaming? What does she make of the Education where the Government parties stand on infant class Endowment Foundation’s research into the impact of sizes. We will be telling them that five more years of this streaming on children from deprived backgrounds? What agenda will mean 450,000 infants taught in class sizes of evidence has she used to inform her plans—which specific more than 30 by 2020. We will be telling them that only academic findings? What assessment has she had on the one party is committed to refocusing spending on areas impact of her plans— where it is needed most, that only one party is determined to deliver an education system that works for all pupils Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): and that does not prioritise spending on one school Order. I am sure that that point is very interesting, type over another, and that only one party believes in a Mr Hunt, and that we would all like to know the one nation education system. That party sits on the answer, but it is not the subject of the debate. As far as I Labour Benches and I commend the motion to the am aware, the proposal is not on infant classes. While I House. am on my feet, let me say that infant classes probably behave better than most Government Members at the moment. Perhaps we can stop the cat-calling—Mr Heaton- 4.40 pm Harris, please do not look so disappointed—and The Secretary of State for Education (Nicky Morgan): concentrate on the debate on the motion before us. It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. Let me begin by paying tribute to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Tristram Hunt: Unlike so many Government Members, Central (Tristram Hunt), because it shows a huge amount I always obey the rulings of the Chair and would seek of courage for a Labour politician to call a debate on no dishonour to it at any point, so I will immediately this of all issues. Perhaps I should address the historian move on, Madam Deputy Speaker. in him by comparing him to Lord Cardigan at the battle 355 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 356

[Nicky Morgan] discuss matters and I very much hope, as do other Ministers, that there will be a Sikh-ethos school in of Balaclava: brave but leaderless, charging ahead on a Leicester. Applications are open until October for another kamikaze mission when everything around him was wave of free schools and I very much hope that there lost. We all remember the record of the previous will be an application along those lines. Government—the hon. Gentleman’s party—and that makes it very brave indeed to raise this issue now. Mr Rob Wilson: I welcome the sensible and measured As we have heard from Government Members, we way in which my right hon. Friend is responding in this remember how Labour cut 200,000 primary school debate, in contrast to the shouty and rather juvenile way places at the very time that this country was facing a in which the shadow Secretary of State spoke. He dramatic baby boom. We remember how it cut the refused to take an intervention from me. I would have funding for basic need places by £150 million at the very asked him to correct the record. In response to interventions, time it was needed most, and how they penalised those he said that basic need funding has gone down under councils with the foresight to refuse to meet their demands. this Government. In fact, it has gone up. Perhaps he And we remember how Labour made this all so much would like to intervene on the Secretary of State to put worse by allowing immigration to spiral out of control, that right. adding further pressure to the system and leading to so Nicky Morgan: I do not see the shadow Secretary of many of the concerns we are talking about today. State leaping to his feet to correct the record, so for the benefit of the House, let me set out some of the other Toby Perkins: The right hon. Lady is comparing the mistakes he made in moving the motion. situation now with that under the previous Government. She will be aware that in Leicestershire, the county she As I have said, we would now be facing a crisis in represents, there were 2,376 children in infant classes in school places given everything that did not happen January 2014, compared with just 1,000 before. The under the last Government, but fortunately—as with figure has gone up by 121%. Does not that show that, the economy, immigration and welfare—this Government under this Government, things have got significantly had a plan to clear up the previous Government’s mess. worse since 2010? We had a plan to reverse Labour’s cuts in school places by investing £5 billion, which is more than double the amount spent by the hon. Gentleman’s Government Nicky Morgan: I thank the hon. Gentleman very during their last years in office, to create 260,000 new much indeed for his intervention, but in terms of basic places by the summer of 2013. need funding, which is what we are debating today, Leicestershire’s has gone up from £13 million to £51 million, Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and while between 2007 and 2011 Chesterfield got £9.3 million, Hillsborough) (Lab): I am conjuring up a picture in but now it will be getting £30 million up to 2017. which everything is doubled, but capital investment in schools is halved, because that is actually the reality. Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): May I Will the right hon. Lady reflect on this paradox? We ask the right hon. Lady about an issue specific to have a situation in which, as we have learned, tens of Leicester with which she will be familiar, namely the thousands of youngsters in infants school are now in Falcons primary school, which is a Sikh free school that classes of over 30 at a time when the Government are was due to open this week? She will know that the spending £1 billion to subsidise free school meals for Department effectively pulled the plug on it last Friday the most wealthy parents of those same infants. Is it not and 69 pupils were supposed to start there today. Can a paradox that they can get a free school and a free she give us an explanation as to why it got to this late meal, but they cannot get a place in an infants school stage before the Department pulled the plug, and will with a class size of fewer than 30? she undertake to send officials from the Department to meet Leicester city council and the wider community to Nicky Morgan: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for discuss an urgent way forward? his intervention, but he will not be surprised that I disagree with its sentiments. I realise that he, as one of Nicky Morgan: I hope you will bear with me for a my predecessors, has expertise in this area. Let me moment, Madam Deputy Speaker, while I answer this remind him, however, that in his local authority the very important question. The hon. Gentleman will know funding for basic need has risen from £22 million to that I spoke to the right hon. Member for Leicester East £71 million over the past few years. In fact, this Government (Keith Vaz) about this matter on Monday evening. It is are spending £18 billion on school buildings during this a serious situation and not something that the Department Parliament, which is more than Labour spent in its first would do lightly, but it became very clear that there two terms combined. We are absolutely investing in the were serious governance issues in relation to the proposed school estate. school. I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House know—this is at the heart of schools—that we Several hon. Members rose— have to make sure that the right school and schooling are available for the pupils in question. We have been Nicky Morgan: I will make some progress. working very closely with local authorities to make sure We had a long-term economic plan to get the economy that all the pupils have places. The hon. Gentleman will back in shape. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for also know that departmental officials offered to attend Stoke-on-Trent Central yawns, but if, after the note left the community meeting on Sunday, but that was not by the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury saying welcomed, and that I have set up urgent meetings that there was no money left, he does not think that between the Under-Secretary of State for Education, getting our economy back on track was important, he Lord Nash and the community. We have offered to has missed the entire point of this Parliament. 357 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 358

We wanted to invest an additional £7 billion to fund a Nicky Morgan: No, I am going to make a bit of further 500,000 school places by 2021, and we had a progress. plan to help teachers and parents open an unprecedented The figure of 400 new schools that I have given number of new schools. More than 300 new free and includes 251 free schools, with 79 opening this month technical schools have been opened across the country alone and about 70 more in the pipeline. Those are since this Government came to office, and a total of schools that pupils, parents and teachers want, but that 400 new schools have been opened or approved that would not exist if it were down to the shadow Secretary would simply not exist if the hon. Gentleman was of State. The figure includes 30 university technical standing at the Dispatch Box instead of me. colleges, which are working with employers to give young people the skills that they need to succeed in key Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): May I tell the industries such as engineering and science, and 37 studio Secretary of State about a free school that has opened? schools, which prepare young people for work by offering The Hawthorne’s free school in Sefton, which was opened a rigorous academic education alongside employer-backed in an area that had surplus secondary places in 2011, technical and vocational qualifications. has had a knock-on effect on two neighbouring secondary None of that has been easy. It took this Government, schools, which have seen their rolls decline, and is now working in partnership with teachers and parents up less than half full. At the same time, primary schools and down the country, to get it done. However, as a across Sefton have had 500 more pupils in classes over result, young people who are going back to school this 30 in size, which is an increase of 321%. How can that week have more chance of going to a good or outstanding possibly be the best use of such money? school than at any time since Ofsted was established. I give way to the former Chairman of the Select Nicky Morgan: Let me tell the hon. Gentleman that Committee. investment in Sefton has gone from £2.6 million to £3.6 million in the course of this Parliament. The fact is Mr Sheerman: Education is a partnership. When the that seven out of 10 free schools have opened in areas of Secretary of State was appointed, I had high hopes of basic need. I wonder whether he has listened, because her. I hope that she will not disappoint me. I know that free schools are opened in response to parental demand. her party is under pressure from UKIP, but three times The parents and the local community wanted a free in this debate on education, immigration has been prayed school to be opened. in aid when discussing the problem with our schools—once by a Government Back Bencher and twice by her. I have Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) not heard that in an education debate before. Is it a (Lab): If everything is going so well, will the Secretary UKIP-inspired point? It is. Two times she has mentioned of State explain why almost one in five parents thinks immigration. Will she please not do it? that schools are squeezing too many pupils into classes and have deep concerns about class sizes? They will find Nicky Morgan: I had high hopes of a better intervention her response in this debate incredibly complacent. from the hon. Gentleman. If he does not think that that issue has affected public services in this country, he Nicky Morgan: The hon. Lady and I had a great absolutely encapsulates why the Labour party will remain sparring relationship when I was in my previous role on the Opposition Benches after May 2015. and she often tried to use the word complacent. She will I have set out the record of this Government. Let me know that I am never complacent about the concerns compare it to that of the Labour party. raised by MPs across the House. This debate is about airing the issues, but parents might not be quite so Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I congratulate the concerned if the shadow Secretary of State were honest Secretary of State on her performance so far at the and open with the figures that he is bringing to the Dispatch Box. Surely when the National Audit Office House today. says that two thirds of the places created by free schools are not in areas of need, it raises serious questions Richard Fuller: The Secretary of State has faced a about the Government’s spending priorities. number of confusing interventions from Opposition Members, one of which repeated something that was Nicky Morgan: I respect the hon. Gentleman very said in The Guardian today, which was that she was much and enjoyed working with him when we were about to announce a policy a compulsory setting. Will Whips on opposite sides of the House, but I do not she take this opportunity to say whether she is going to recognise those figures. Seven out of 10 free schools do that? that are currently open are in areas of basic need and eight out of 10 free schools that are planned to open Nicky Morgan: Let me confirm for the benefit of the will be in areas of basic need. Free schools are a House that there is absolutely no truth in those rumours. response to the need for places and to the demands of There are some people outside this House who have a parents and teachers for more good schools in a local rather unhealthy interest in speculating about what I am area. or am not about to announce. They would be better served if they spent less time on Twitter and talking to Mr Marsden: Will the Secretary of State give way? journalists, and more time reflecting on the importance of the policies and reforms that have already been Nicky Morgan: No, I am going to make some progress. implemented by this Government. I have set out the record of this Government. Let me compare it to that of the Labour party. It took four years Mr Sheerman: Will the Secretary of State give way? for Labour to open the first 27 academies, seven years 359 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 360

[Nicky Morgan] read and write they cannot play a full part in modern Britain. It is deeply unfair on any education system to to open the first 133 academies, and five years to open leave its children poorly educated. just 15 city technology colleges. I am a generous person, Let me turn to class sizes as they are mentioned in the so I can see that not everything Labour did was wrong. Order Paper today. The motion claims that There were some good initiatives. Some Labour Members “the number of infants taught in classes of over 30 has risen by understood and even helped to inspire the academy and 200 per cent”, free school programme that this Government have made but as we shall see, the shadow Secretary of State based such a success. Let me make it clear that, unlike the his entire case on one snapshot of the school year, shadow Secretary of State, who has spent the past which he has used—whether knowingly or not—in an 11 months distancing himself from the policies of those opportunistic way. I know hon. Members will find that brave reformers in the Labour party who came before hard to believe, but let me set the hon. Gentleman right. him, I will make no apologies for the work of my The truth is that despite everything we inherited, the predecessor, who was one of the most successful, passionate proportion of infant pupils in classes of more than 30 and committed education reformers of the 21st century. has gone up by just three percentage points, while the We could have a genuine debate about some of those number of pupils requiring a place has risen by 11%. things. Indeed, I am sure we would all be fascinated to know the latest views of the shadow Secretary of State, Bill Esterson rose— given how often they change. He has flip-flopped from free schools being a Nicky Morgan: I will make some progress. In fact, the “vanity project for yummy mummies” proportion of primary school pupils in very large classes which he said on 18 May 2010, to 13 October last year has fallen under this Government. How has that been when he apologised for that description and said: possible? How have we managed to keep class sizes “I regret those comments because I think any parents, be they down despite the huge rise in the number of pupils yummy mummies or faddy daddies, involved in the education of requiring a place? It is because we have added almost their children is great” 4,500 infant classes since 2010, which means that there He also said that he would put “rocket boosters” under are more infant classes today than at any time in the parents who wanted to set up schools, but two days later past decade. The motion notes that he U-turned again, describing free schools as a “dangerous “the Government relaxed the rules on infant class sizes”. ideological experiment”. Which one is it? His position is That is true. We have made it easier for parents with completely inexplicable. twins and multiple births, the children of members of our armed forces, and looked after children, to get a Mr Rob Wilson: Is it my right hon. Friend’s understanding place in their chosen school. that the Labour party will close free schools; indeed it will try to close them on the basis of a bogus review of Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Give us a break. free school buildings? I wrote to the shadow Secretary of State and his deputy nearly a year ago, and neither Nicky Morgan: The hon. Gentleman says, “Give us a have replied to me about the bogus review of school break.” If he does not think that helping vulnerable buildings. Through my right hon. Friend’s good offices, children in that way is important— perhaps she will get the truth out of the Labour party. Kevin Brennan: It’s a smokescreen— Nicky Morgan: I thank my hon. Friend for his point and I shall certainly try to get the truth from the Labour Nicky Morgan: Well, we hear it all now. What is best party. Would the shadow Secretary of State like to for these children is a stable start to their school life. intervene to tell the House what he thinks about free Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will take the opportunity schools today, and whether he will provide clarity? to tell us which of those categories of people he would Parents and children attending schools need clarification like to take a school place away from first. When he and to know whether he would keep them open were does so, perhaps he could explain it to some of the 83% he—heaven forbid—in government. of parents and others who supported this change when we asked them their view. Mr Stewart Jackson: I do not want to detract from The motion mentions the Conservative party’s manifesto my right hon. Friend’s litany of disastrous Labour pledge to failures in the 13 years to 2010, but I will add my penny’s worth to it. The Education Committee recently found “create smaller schools with smaller class sizes” that under the Labour Government the performance of and we are delivering on that. Despite everything, the white working class children in receipt of free school average number of pupils in an infant class is 27.4, meals plummeted and was among the worst in the western which, as the shadow Secretary of State will know, is world. That is a badge of shame for the Labour party. considerably less than the specified limit. But here is the difference: we chose to trust head teachers and local Nicky Morgan: I thank my hon. Friend for his authorities to make good, sensible decisions that are intervention and I know he is passionate about this best for them, their pupils and their schools. If he wants issue. The fact of the matter is that by 2010, one in three me to apologise for doing that, he will be waiting a long primary school age children were leaving school unable time. to read and write properly. Anyone who is a parent, Then, the shadow Secretary of State makes his boldest godparent or who has a relationship with young children claim, the one he has been making a lot lately, on and visits schools will know that if someone cannot television, in the media, wherever he can—the claim 361 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 362 that pupils are regularly being taught in classes of 70 or what we are doing to sort it out, but there is no place for more. Like many right hon. and hon. Members, I have scaremongering on such an emotive and important just returned from a short break, and I took with me a issue. little light reading. Here it is—available in all good, and We have learned today that the shadow Secretary of not so good, bookshops. Before I looked at it, I checked State is opposed to free schools, although I am not sure out some reviews—this one, for example: because it is hard to keep up. It is Wednesday. It could “It’s profound stuff from Hunt, whose book Ten Cities That be anti-free school day on the Opposition Front Bench, Made An Empire has a number of inaccuracies, including calling but he had better ensure that the 21 Labour MPs and Viscount Powerscourt ‘Powerhouse’, and getting the wrong date his three shadow Cabinet colleagues who have publicly for the Corn Laws.” backed free schools in their constituencies get the memo. As a result, I have learned to be wary of the hon. Gentleman’s claims, and apparently rightly so, because Richard Fuller: Is it not depressing that the Opposition the claim that children are routinely being taught in motion is premised on division? It divides teachers in classes of 70 or more is simply wrong. The evidence free schools from teachers in other schools, parents actually shows that these pupils are taking part in from parents and children from children. Would my activities such as swimming or arts and crafts while right hon. Friend not like to see a more positive education being supervised by adults. It is hardly unexpected to policy that can inspire the next generation, not set one find this in a normal primary school on a Thursday during against the other? the year when the census is taken. It is not, however, how they would normally be taught in a classroom. He apparently has as good a grasp of school census figures Nicky Morgan: In order to have a positive vision for as he does of 19th century history. education, one needs a plan for education, and that is what the Government have in our drive for high academic Andrew Bridgen: Does the Secretary of State agree standards, high-quality teachers and the best schools that there could well be more than 30 pupils, for example, possible. All that is absent in Labour’s education plan. in assembly, on a school trip or during physical education The shadow Secretary of State is fond of claiming or sports events? that free schools divert money from areas of basic need, but it will come as no surprise to right hon. and hon. Nicky Morgan: My hon. Friend hits the nail on the Members to learn that he is wrong again. Seven in 10 head. mainstream free schools have been opened in areas of Every time the shadow Secretary of State makes the basic need. That figure is higher still for the free schools claim, he ought to think about the impression he is opening this month, and higher again for those approved creating on teachers and head teachers, who roll their in the most recent application round. Free schools are eyes in frustration. Mr Andrew Smith, executive head also helping to provide good school places in some of of White Hall academy in Essex, says that his claims are the most challenging parts of the country. Half of free not only wrong, but potentially damaging to his school, schools have been established in the 30% most deprived and he wants the record put straight. So let us put this communities and they have to abide by the same admissions to bed once and for all: the hon. Gentleman has misread code as all state-funded schools. In total, open and the facts. There is absolutely no foundation to his claim, planned free schools will provide 175,000 new places, and it is nothing but scaremongering of the worst kind. with the vast majority in areas facing a shortage or He is not just wrong about children regularly being areas of deprivation. This is an amazing story of success, taught in classes of more than 70, but wrong about but it is not just our story. None of it would have them being taught in classes of more than 60, 50 and happened without the hard work and dedication of the 40, and it is doing him no favours with teachers and parent and teacher groups that made it possible. head teachers up and down the land. I give him the However, free schools are just part of the story—a opportunity to withdraw his claim, strike it from the motion vital part and one that is helping to raise standards in and commit to never using it again. all schools, through the new ideas and approaches they bring and the support they provide to other schools and Bill Esterson rose— institutions, but only one part of our plan for education, Nicky Morgan: Will the hon. Gentleman withdraw which is delivering real results. What is the shadow the claim on his hon. Friend’s behalf? Secretary of State’s plan? What would he do? What would a Labour Government offer to young people in Bill Esterson: The Secretary of State talks about education today? It is no good looking to him, because facts. Will she confirm the fact—stated in evidence to his view changes all the time. As we have heard, he was the Education Committee—that £400 million of basic for free schools before he was against them, and against need money has gone into the Government’s free school AS-levels before he was for them. Once he makes up his programme, and that that money, as I demonstrated mind, he is full of indecision. earlier, has been spent in areas with surplus places, not Let us look not at what the Labour party says, but areas of need? instead at what it does. An all-out pursuit of mediocrity; subjects dumbed down; exam grades inflated; many Nicky Morgan: I will touch on that point in a moment, young people leaving school barely able to read and but I dispute that evidence. I note, however, that the write properly, with the most disadvantaged young people hon. Gentleman did not dispute what I was saying suffering most; and, as we know, slashing the number of about classes of 70 and more. It was just a snapshot. He school places by 200,000 at the same time as the number thinks it perfectly acceptable to upset teachers like this. of people demanding a school place was rising—that is We can have a legitimate debate about school places, we the Labour party’s record. That is what Labour Members can disagree about how we got into this situation and offer, because they have not learned their lesson. They 363 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 364

[Nicky Morgan] the birth rate in Lewisham has increased by 32%. In real terms, that means that approximately 1,000 more babies never do, which is why today the shadow Secretary of were born in Lewisham last year than in the year 2001. State has set his face against everything that has been Since 2008, Lewisham council has created nearly 3,000 achieved in the past few years. more primary school places. The vast majority have The shadow Secretary of State has set himself against been in temporary bulge classes—extra forms of entry, the changes that have given more young people the which then move up through the school as the children opportunity to go to a good or outstanding school than progress to their next academic year. Only 500 or so of ever before, against the reforms that have given every the extra places have been in schools that have been child the chance to get a good grounding in the core permanently expanded. This is partly to do with funding, academic subjects, and against the changes we have partly to do with very constrained school sites, and made to get children off the exam treadmill and to partly to do with the need to act quickly to meet the ensure they spend more time in education and less time demand for extra spaces in the next academic year. in exams. Above all, he has set himself against the Classrooms have been put up on playgrounds, and progress that has been made, not by me or my predecessor, music and art rooms have all but disappeared from but by thousands of the hard-working and dedicated schools in Lewisham, having been converted into much teachers who have quietly got on with the job and put needed full-time teaching space. Some children inevitably the Government’s plan for education into action. find themselves being taught in classes with more pupils. We know what the shadow Secretary of State is The pressure on primary schools also means that an against; we just do not know what he is for. However, increasing number of children are being taught in schools we do know that, like Lord Cardigan before him, he has a long way from home. Time and again, whether it be at been sent out on this hopeless mission by a weak and my advice surgery or when I am out speaking to people confused leader who, devoid of any plan of his own, on the doorstep, I meet parents who are really angry can do nothing more than send his troops forward to about their inability to get their son or daughter into a inevitable defeat. Let me make it clear again. We would local school. indeed be facing a crisis of class sizes in this country These are not “pushy parents” who are unrealistically today—we would indeed be seeing children struggling limiting themselves to an over-subscribed outstanding in classes that are too big to work—if it were not for this school—although who could blame them if they were; Government’s plan to clear up the mess the last Labour more often than not, these are parents who would be Government left behind. happy to send their children to any one of five or six The shadow Secretary of State spoke for 24 minutes, good local schools. The schools, however, are simply but he did not mutter the one word that parents and full up, so the children are allocated a place far from children need to hear from the Labour party on this home, often involving multiple bus journeys in rush-hour subject perhaps more than any other: sorry. He is fortunate traffic—no small feat in London, with small children in that, as so often, we have picked up the pieces, so that tow. The strain this places on family life can be considerable. young people do not have to suffer for his Government’s I have repeatedly had women telling me that they may mistakes. Let us resolve today never to allow the future have to give up work in order to drop their children off of our children to be placed in Labour’s hands ever at school. Sometimes siblings can be at different schools, again. I urge the House to reject the motion. miles apart. Many of my constituents do not have cars, so it can be almost a physical impossibility to get one 5.7 pm child to one school and another child to another school on time. Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in this important I do not have children, but if I did I could not debate. imagine that navigating long distances to get them to The ability of parents to send their children to a good school at the ages of four or five is the sort of start to local school and have them taught in suitably sized their education that I would want for them. I understand classes is something that the vast majority of British it when parents say that they want their children to be people would deem a pretty basic feature of life in the taught in small schools with small classes and close to UK in the 21st century, but sadly in my constituency of home. I understand that, as a parent, one would want to Lewisham East it is becoming more and more difficult feel confident that every teacher was able to know every for families. During the last six years, competition for child as an individual, to be able to monitor their primary school places in Lewisham has been growing progress and understand what they are good at or not significantly, a phenomenon replicated across the whole so good at. of London. A rapidly rising birth rate, fewer people I know that parents do not want to have their children moving out, because of a broadly stagnant housing disappearing into a sea of faces at the back of a market, and high inward migration from the other parts classroom, but this is the direction in which the current of the British isles, as well as internationally, have all Government seem to be heading. That is not right—not contributed to the need for more school places in the right for the parents, not right for the children and not capital. right for the school and the teachers who are trying to The present Government’s failure to adequately fund provide education in school buildings that are bursting extra classrooms in areas with the greatest need means at the seams. It is made worse by the fact that central that many parents in Lewisham and London more Government funding for school places is not going to widely are left wondering why public money is being the areas that need it most. spent on opening new schools in leafy areas of low How this Government can justify opening new schools demand when their own children are being squeezed in areas of low demand when they do not adequately into more and more crowded schools. In the last 13 years, fund the areas with the most pressure on school places 365 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 366 is beyond me. Let us take London as an example. We and an annual safety valve which included, in the latter know that the capital has a 42% share of the national years, the allocation of an extra £266 million. Ministers demand for extra school places, yet receives a 36% share never quote those figures, because this is a smokescreen. of basic needs funding. How do Ministers account for that? The money provided by central Government to Heidi Alexander: My hon. Friend is entirely right. All my local authority of Lewisham to meet the rising that I know is that there is a significant problem in my demand for school places has quite simply been inadequate constituency and other parts of London, which the for the task. Government urgently and desperately need to address. I am grateful to the Minister for Schools for twice We know that the economy in London outperforms meeting me and the mayor of Lewisham over the last that in the rest of the country, and we know that more year to discuss the issue. He knows—and I hope to and more people want to live here. In the next decade, bring this to the attention of other Education Ministers— the population is expected to increase by the size of that the local authority of Lewisham has identified a Liverpool and Leeds combined. Just as we need to build £19.5 million shortfall if it is to meet all the demand for homes to accommodate that growth, we need schools to extra primary places up to 2016. I am aware that in the educate our young people. In Lewisham, we are lucky last round of funding allocations, the Government provided to have outstanding primary schools. Yes, more work a 2% uplift to London local authorities. It was a helpful needs to be done at secondary level, but our head start, but even with this, the funding does not fully teachers do inspiring and incredible work. Naheeda reflect the additional costs of expanding schools in the Maharasingham at Rathfern primary school, Michael capital: there is fierce competition for land, site acquisition Roach at John Ball primary school and Dame Vicki costs are higher, and even the costs of construction are Patterson at the Brindishe schools federation are some higher in London. The Government need to look at the of the most impressive individuals I have met when it methodology they use for allocating funding. Assumptions comes to the delivery of our public services. I believe in the funding formula about the percentage of permanent that the Government should be helping those impressive spaces created by local authorities recently have worked individuals to do their job by ensuring that there is against local authorities such as Lewisham, where very adequate funding for school expansions. few permanent expansions have taken place. The education system does not need money to be The Government also need to start thinking about siphoned off to areas where there is questionable demand the looming crisis affecting secondary places. My local for extra school capacity, and it does not need the authority has opened a brand-new secondary school in uncertainty of children being offered places at free the last few years, but anticipates that it will need schools that do not even have sites from which to another by September 2017. Secondary schools do not operate. The education system just needs the Government come cheap, and they do not come quickly. Indeed, to recognise their responsibilities, and to ensure that London councils have estimated that the capital needs a scarce public funds go where they are needed most. further £1 billion if it is to meet all need come 2016. Parents in Lewisham think that that is a reasonable expectation to have of a Government, and so do I. The Minister of State, Department for Education (Mr Nick Gibb): I am listening carefully to the hon. 5.18 pm Lady’s speech. She has made some important points, but I should point out that the Government have delivered Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): It is a what they have been able to deliver. Between 2007 and pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Lewisham East 2011, under the last Government, allocation for basic (Heidi Alexander), who had the great benefit of being need stood at about £25 million. Under the present educated in my wonderful constituency. I think that Government, it has risen to £78 million, and a further that shone through the whole of her speech. £18 million has already been allocated to Lewisham for I asked to speak in today’s debate. I am normally 2015-17. I shall be happy to discuss the issue further ruthlessly positive in my speeches—I always try to focus with the hon. Lady, because I know that she is sincere on “looking on the bright side of life”—but when I saw and passionate about it, but I hope that, in return, she the motion, I was staggered. Indeed, I have been disgusted will acknowledge that a total allocation of £96 million by the absolute cheek of some of the points that have between 2011 and 2017 is a very significant sum in the been made. I speak from experience not only of membership current economic circumstances. of the Public Accounts Committee—to which I shall refer later—but of 10 years at the coal face as a ward Heidi Alexander: I acknowledge that money has been councillor in a new build area, fighting the crazy views spent; I am just not sure that it is keeping up with the of Labour councillors who hated parental choice and scale of demand for extra places. I believe that there are did everything they could to force parents to send their fundamental questions to be answered about how the children to schools that they did not support. Government allocate resources, and how they plan to Let me return to my time as borough councillor. The ensure that future generations can gain access to the incompetent, useless Labour council in Swindon, which education that they deserve. was so bad the Labour Government had to step in and put it into special measures, managed to rack up a Kevin Brennan: Has my hon. Friend noticed that staggering £68 million backlog of repairs in schools. We Ministers never quote the true figures for spending on had schools such as the Moredon primary school where schools during the period in question? During that not only were the roofs leaking, but the windows did period, the last Government recognised that more places not fit properly, and kids had to come to school in coats would be needed. They provided extra core capital and bring their own buckets—as featured on the TV. It funding of £400 million a year from 2007-08 to 2010-11, was an absolute disaster and it was a relief that the last 367 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 368

[Justin Tomlinson] initiatives, as we covered extensively in the PAC. It was the only show in town. Anyone who wanted to build Labour Government at least took it away from that new schools had to have very expensive PFI schemes. hopeless Labour council. Thankfully, we seized control The two flaws with that are that future generations will of the council and we immediately started tackling that continue to pay for them—again, robbing money from £68 million backlog for schools. front-line schools budgets—and that they are incredibly I represented a new development—an area that, when inflexible. As we have started to release additional money I first got elected in 2000, had 1,800 houses, but which to expand the number of school places, we are finding by the time I was elevated to become the MP 10 years that it is an absolute nightmare to renegotiate the later had 10,000 houses, and every single time we needed schools with PFIs. Also, because they were privately a brand-new school Labour councillors blocked it. They built, they were often landlocked and space was very blocked it for the same reason that Labour MPs today limited, even if a deal could have been thrashed out, at are putting forward in their interventions and speeches— great expense to local rate payers. namely, that there are surplus places in other schools. I was staggered that developers were given the green These were schools that were not good; they were not light to press ahead with developments without providing exceptional, they were not acceptable to parents, and these places, so time and again people were paying high they were a long way away, but Labour councillors, premiums for new houses—they could see in the plans determined to remove parental choice—[Interruption.] that a school should be built, but those schools would The shadow Secretary of State can chunter away on the get further and further behind, creating yet more chaos. Front Bench, but this is about parental choice. I have Things are changing, but it takes time—when we met many angry parents, and having had the biggest have had such a shock to the system, with 200,000 places swing in the last general election in the south-west, I can ripped out of the system, it takes time. I pay tribute to assure him that a lot of that was driven by very angry the Conservative council in Swindon, which I was proud people who were denied the basic right of parental to be part of for 10 years. We have expanded Orchid choice in terms of schools. vale, St Francis, Abbey Meads and Haydonleigh primary Continuously, the Labour Government and council schools and Even Swindon school; we have incorporated sought to build schools after houses were in place, not Penhill primary school in Swindon academy and completely as part of the infrastructure plan for new developments, rebuilt Seven Fields primary school; and the new Tadpole because, they kept saying, there were spare places in Farm school opened today for its first wave of new other schools. That is absolute nonsense. children. That is because our councillors have completely understood and supported parental choice. This Heidi Alexander: The hon. Gentleman is talking about Government have helped by doubling the amount of parental choice. Does he accept that the constituents I funding available for new school places, and my local described in my speech have zero parental choice? They authority has ensured that it has been at the front of the may choose five or six schools to send their children to, queue to get it. This goes hand in hand with other but then be offered none of them. Does he not acknowledge education funding, especially the fantastic decision to this is a real issue in certain parts of the country? deliver fairer funding, from which my local authority has benefited greatly. Justin Tomlinson: I thank the hon. Lady for that The free schools programme has been covered extensively important intervention, and I can say, absolutely, that is by the Public Accounts Committee, which has been where my anger is coming from. The hon. Lady is very selectively quoted by the shadow Minister, who experiencing what I went through for 10 years in Swindon. clearly does not understand how the free school principle Luckily, in my constituency now 90% of parents get works. It is driven by parental demand. It is not about a their preferred choice; we are in the top quartile in that top-down approach; it is about local communities having respect, and we have done very well as we have expanded, the ability to apply to have a school. The hon. Member as we saw in the Public Accounts Committee. The for Lewisham East rightly highlighted the next challenges underlying point here is that the last Labour Government to secondary schools, and we are looking at that in the robbed this country of 200,000 places in the middle of a same way in my constituency. We are using the free baby boom. It is an absolute disgrace, and the hon. school model, which involves parental demand and the Lady’s residents are now paying the price. I will come need to get 900 signatures from local parents. back to this and address in detail what is being done It is convenient for Labour MPs to ignore the fact about it because parents are absolutely furious. that those involved have to prove that there are no We have always had finite resources, but we also had surplus places in either good or exceptional schools the ludicrous Building Schools for the Future costs. We within a natural catchment area. We are not building said to local authorities, “You can go ahead and build schools in areas where there are already good places. If schools, but I want every single bid to be unique. I want there are surplus places in failing schools, parents have you to redesign the wheel every single time.” Each and the right to an alternative. It is fine for those who can every single bid was costing £5 million in order to afford to choose a private school, but the vast majority reinvent the wheel—money that should have been going of parents cannot do so, and neither they nor their to front-line services. The bids took a long time to children should be robbed of the opportunity to have deliver, they were slow, they were complex and many of the very best education. Let me remind the House that them failed, and that, again, caused huge delays in they get only one opportunity. delivering new schools. We have also started to be a lot tougher with developers, The last Labour Government, determined to make and as new infrastructure proposals are brought sure the current generation did not pay for infrastructure forward, schools are being built at the beginning of the facilities, were obsessed with promoting private finance process. An example is the Tadpole development in 369 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 370

Swindon. Before the first house has been moved into, The evidence on the importance of reducing class the Tadpole Farm primary school has already opened. sizes has been available since 1982, when a study by an It has been completed ahead of the development, rather American laboratory for educational research concluded than afterwards, when demand might have exceeded that reductions in class size supply. “promise learning benefits of a magnitude commonly believed Given the failure of Building Schools for the Future, not within the power of educators to achieve.” in which each and every school had to spend £5 million Thirty years later and much closer to home, studies reinventing the wheel, we are rightly encouraging the have shown that class sizes of more than 30 are particularly use of modular school buildings. Schools can be the damaging for children of low ability or for those with same right across the country; we can use set designs. special needs. Small class sizes are central to Labour’s We have reduced the cost of building a new primary vision of what a world-class and inclusive early-years school from £7 million to £3.5 million. The shadow environment should include. The Government seem to Minister seems to find that amusing, but halving the be determined to take education back to some mythical cost of building a school means that we can build twice golden age when children learned everything they needed as many. That is elementary mathematics. to by rote. I am incredibly proud that we have achieved a figure of 90% for preferred choices, and I should like Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): Will the hon. to offer MPs a piece of practical advice that they can Gentleman explain what has changed in Labour policy take back to their constituencies. Whenever parents do on class sizes since 2008? The then Schools Minister in not get their child into the school of their choice, they another place told the teaching union, the Association are incredibly angry. I know of no other issue that of Teachers and Lecturers, that it was perfectly acceptable has such an effect; it is even more emotive than the to teach maths to pupils in class sizes of 70. threat of a library closure. We started to take schools admissions staff out to parents in the community in the Toby Perkins: That is interesting, as not long ago we weeks leading up to the parents having to fill in their heard the Secretary of State talking about class sizes of three choices. For example, a parent might come in and 70 happening now. I do not recognise that as something say, “I live on Queen Elizabeth drive, and I would like that the Labour party wants to see, and my hon. Friend my child to go to St Francis primary school.” The the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) admissions staff would then be able to tell the parent has secured this debate because he wants to make it that, given previous years’ data, that application would absolutely clear that the Labour party’s commitment be unlikely to succeed. They would tell them still to back in 1997 to rescue our schools from the catastrophic apply, but also advise them on where the best available and mediaeval state they were in after 18 years of Tory schools with surplus places were likely to be, so that government burns in his heart. He wants a reduction in they could put them down as their second and third class sizes and to get away from the huge increases we choices. In that way, they would at least be defaulted to have seen under this Government. a school that they would deem acceptable. By going that On the subject of the vision for education held by the extra mile before the applications went in, we were able previous Education Secretary before his dismissal—I to work with parents to ensure that alternatives were am sure that my two colleagues on the Front Bench are in place. not the only people sitting on a Front Bench at the I am normally incredibly positive in my speeches. I moment who were pleased to see him disappear—this try not to get involved in party politics, but given that Government’s approach has led, in my experience, to a the Opposition have tried to gloss over the fact that the demoralised teaching work force, a betrayal of the last Labour Government stole 200,000 places in the Government’s rhetoric when they came to office of a midst of a baby boom and have the cheek to complain commitment to the early years, and a fragmented landscape about the results of their actions, I felt that I had to that has seen enfeebled local authority provision, schools contribute to the debate today, and I have done that. driven unwillingly into becoming academies and the appalling realisation that although money has flowed 5.28 pm towards free schools, often in areas that had sufficient Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Much of the debate demand, there has been a 200% increase in the number has focused on numbers, and will continue to do so. of infant pupils taught in classes sized over 30. Those include the number of classes with more than 30 Any MP who has taken the time to visit their local or 35 pupils. Shockingly, in my constituency, there are schools cannot fail to be moved by the pressure put on even classes with more than 40. I want to start by our schools by this out-of-touch Government, but the looking behind the numbers and discussing why large seeds of that educational approach should have been classes matter to pupils, parents and schools. It has not revealed to anyone who took the time to read the been clear to me, listening to the contributions from Conservative party manifesto, which was referred to a Government Members, whether they consider the increase few minutes ago by my hon. Friend the Member for in class sizes to be a problem. We have heard a lot of Stoke-on-Trent Central. It stated: denials and the blaming of immigrants, and we have “A Conservative government will give many more children heard a variety of reasons why it is not the Government’s access to the kind of education that is currently only available to fault, but we have not heard whether this result was the the well-off: safe classrooms, talented…teachers, access to the design of Tory party policy or whether it is something best curriculum…and smaller schools with smaller class sizes they regret. It would be helpful to hear from the Minister with teachers who know the children’s names.” whether there is a strategy for class sizes or whether the I do not know about other MPs, but as someone who problem that we are bringing to the attention of the has been a councillor, a school governor and a parent in Government is recognised by them. Chesterfield over the 13 years of Labour government 371 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 372

[Toby Perkins] So this entire school was being set up because they could not get their children into one school, even though I find that description, as though that was what schools there were other schools they could get into. When I were like back in 2010, downright offensive. It seems to suggested that they could join the governing body of be a view of our education system based on the views of the school in their catchment area and see whether they someone whose only experience of schools was what could improve that, I was told, “Well, it is a bit of a they had read in the Daily Mail. But that was how the risk.” So I said, “You are setting up a school that Tory party represented what education looked like back doesn’t exist, that has no teachers, that has no building, in 2010. Sadly, it is consistent with how out of touch the that has no other pupils and that has no facilities. That Government have been on education and a raft of other is not ‘not a risk’, is it?” [Interruption.] The hon. issues throughout their time in government. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) is shouting “yes” It is not the fault of Ministers in this Government and he has a free school in his constituency that is half that the education team was entirely privately educated empty. We heard the Education Secretary saying today and that does not prevent them individually from being that a new free school that was due to be set up has, in perfectly good Ministers, but when the basis of their the middle of September, when most pupils— education policy is founded on such a narrow and misguided view of what schoolchildren in my constituency Richard Fuller: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? experience, I cannot help but think that a wider perspective across the team would help their approach to be slightly Toby Perkins: Let me just finish the point. The Education more grounded in reality. Secretary was talking about a school in Leicester that, Let me return specifically to class sizes. The old “hug at a time when most children all around the country are a hoodie” David Cameron used to get it. Back in 2008, going back to school, has been told that it cannot open, when he was still a modern Conservative, he told the and 69 children are left without a school. She says, Yorkshire Post that “Well, we have to get these things right.”The Government should have been looked at that when they were going “the more we can get class sizes down the better”. through all these proposals and giving the money to set In the 2010 manifesto, he promised up the free school. That is the basis of this education “small schools with smaller class sizes” policy. That incarnation of David Cameron—oh, how long ago it seems—understood that every extra pupil adds to Richard Fuller: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman a teacher’s work load, with extra marking and planning, for giving way, because the Labour party is trying, yet and means less time to be spent on pupils. If we want again, to divide people on the issue of free schools and primary education to be about more than just presenting is pointing to Bedford as an example. Local people and something to pupils, class size is important. Smaller local teachers have worked very hard to make sure that classes mean more attention per pupil and more opportunity the free school could be part of the family of schools for children to develop their analytical thinking skills. and, contrary to what he is saying, the Bedford free That is why the last Labour Government made class school is one of the largest free schools that have been sizes such a priority and made such great strides on this set up from scratch, with more than 400 pupils. Their issue. In 1997, as one of our five key pledges ahead of parents have decided that that school is right for their the election, Labour promised to cut class sizes to 30 or children, and I am very proud that this Government under for five, six and seven-year-olds by September have enabled them to make that choice. 2002. Remarkably, the Labour Government actually achieved that a year early; by 2001 it was clear that it Toby Perkins: The hon. Gentleman talks about a would be met. I cannot imagine that many of the divisive education system, but I have never seen a more promises made by the current Government will be divided education system that the one that has been set achieved a year early—they will certainly not be achieving up by this Government. We have seen an incredibly what they promised on the deficit. Unfortunately, those divided, fragmented system. We have seen schools that achievements have been thrown away by this Tory-led do not want to be academies forced into it because they Government, particularly by two specific policy mistakes cannot afford to be anything else but academies. The they have made. Opposition made it absolutely clear that we support Whereas Labour outlawed class sizes going beyond parents getting involved in their schools, but the ideological 30 for children aged four to seven, so that if a class did approach of setting up free schools in a place that go above 30 in one year it had to be brought back down already has adequate supply and at the same time seeing the following year, this Tory-led Government relaxed infant class sizes at the disgraceful level that has been those rules so that class sizes can be above 30 for several discussed in this debate is an utterly divisive way to years—we heard the Secretary of State proudly boasting approach education policy. about that today. Worse, the Government’s unfettered National Audit Office reports demonstrate that fully and ideological free school programme has diverted two thirds of all of new places created by the free funding away from areas that need school places most. schools programme have been created outside the areas Instead, we have heard of the disgraceful situation with the most need. Extraordinarily, that has left some where free schools have been set up in areas with an local authorities in a position where they want to build oversupply of infants schools and are sat there half empty. a new school to manage a primary places crisis, only to Some people who were planning to set up a free school be told that the Department for Education will allow a in Chesterfield came to see me at one of my surgeries. I new school to be built only if it is a free school and only said to these two parents, “So why do you want to set up to find out that nobody wants to build a free school in a free school?” They said, “We don’t think we can get that area. That approach is utterly against the best our kids into Brookfield. We want our kids to go there.” interests of our children. 373 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 374

Free schools were supposed to fill gaps in the market, The choice for the British public at the next general but they are in fact doing the opposite and are stacked election is clear. They can back the ConDems, get an up in places where there is already sufficient demand. ideological commitment to expensive free schools, a We have seen the consequence of that approach in my refusal to retain laws that keep class sizes down, weakened constituency. Across Derbyshire, the number of infant local authorities, demoralised teachers, a fragmented school pupils who are in classes with more than 30 children system that betrays our children and the threat of ever has increased by 117% since this Government came to more children crammed into large class sizes. Alternatively, office. A freedom of information request to the Department they can choose a Labour future where we transform for Education exposed the full scale of the class-size standards with a qualified teacher in every classroom, a growth scandal. How pitiful the Prime Minister’s promise commitment to every child, new schools where they are to cut class sizes now looks. needed most and real action on class sizes. Why wait In Chesterfield, schools are grappling with class sizes until next May to give parents that choice? No one that were absolutely unimaginable under a Labour wanted this Government, not even most of those who Government. Hollingwood primary school has one class are in it. Our children deserve better, so let us have a of 36; Hasland Hall infant school a class of 39; Abercrombie general election. primary school a class of 44; and Walton Holymoorside, just over the border in North East Derbyshire—it is the 5.44 pm school to which my own children went—a class of 36. For anyone who remembers the huge class sizes that we Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con): Thank you for had under the last Tory Government—the one that calling me, Mr Deputy Speaker. I, too, had expected actually won a general election—those figures will come that my colleague would be present to seek to catch as no surprise. your eye; I am sure he will be on his way back to the Chamber in a matter of seconds. Chris Heaton-Harris: The hon. Gentleman is a very It is the right time of year to begin my comments by nice bloke. I am sure he is an excellent MP for his area wishing well all those children who are starting their and a great parent, but does he think that his children’s schooling this week or very soon, and starting, in some education was bad because they were in slightly larger cases, in an entirely new school. For both parents and classes? If so, what did he do about it? children it can be a daunting time of year. I also wish very well all those slightly older students who picked up Toby Perkins: That is a very interesting way of putting results this summer, and I am sure, Mr Deputy Speaker, it. The education provided by my children’s school was you would join me in that, as I am confident do those very good. The hon. Gentleman seems to be making the on the Government Front Bench. case that class sizes do not have a lot to do with the quality of education. If that is the case, then he will Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Yes, I certainly obviously be saying to the voters in Daventry, “Vote would. Conservative to get higher class sizes.” Evidence suggests that class sizes are an important factor. Anecdotal evidence from teachers points to the fact that they find Chloe Smith: Quite right, Mr Deputy Speaker. it a lot more difficult to perform their role in huge Parts of Norwich North have a rising birth rate, and classes. Obviously, he is making an alternative case, and therefore, as a local MP, I have already been active on he will have to take that to his electorate and see what this problem on my constituents’ behalf for some time, they think about it. and have been working with schools, parents and the As I was saying a moment ago, anyone who remembers local authority to look into what needs to be done. I the huge class sizes under the last Tory Government welcomed, therefore, the increase in funding for school will not be surprised by these facts. The speech by the places—£33 million for Norfolk school places in particular. hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) Dare I say it, that is a better figure than for our complaining about the private finance initiative took neighbouring county, Suffolk, and for Cambridgeshire. my breath away. The reality is that in 1997, the Labour But of course I welcome that increased funding for Government inherited a state education system that Norfolk because it is in keeping with what this Government had been chronically underfunded. The quality of the have done to put right the inequalities in funding that school estate was disgraceful. Over 10 years, the Labour Labour left behind. Government had to pay off the deficit that had been left Labour did not do well in Norfolk. It did not help behind by the previous Conservative Government. At schools there to beat the bulge. As we have heard many the same time that we were radically trying to improve times today, Labour is the party that cut 200,000 primary our health service and education system, we were also school places in the middle of a baby boom. That had reducing the deficit that had been left. It is absolutely an impact on Norfolk. Labour is the party that failed to outrageous for the Tories then to say, “It’s a shame you adjust the funding formula in a way that would be fair didn’t pay for it all out of Government funds. You tried to rural counties and would have been fairer to my to bring in the private sector to support some of the constituency. We, in government, have done those things building of the schools and you shouldn’t have done and I congratulate those on the Front Bench on doing so. that.” As I said, I have worked with infant and junior Tory Governments always end the same way—divisions schools in the north city area of my constituency over over Europe leading to paralysis, waiting times in the several years on the issue of planning sensibly for the NHS reaching critical levels, hollowed out local government local bulge in births. I welcome the fact that councils unable to serve the needs of their local communities, now have a three-year allocation of funding for the first and six-year-old children being educated in classes of time. I welcome the foresight that comes with that type 44. We can change the faces but they are all still Tories. of decision. It allows Norfolk county council, like any 375 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 376

[Chloe Smith] Kevin Brennan: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I intervened to give the hon. Lady an opportunity other education authority, to plan ahead and to ensure to clarify for the House whether she had informed my that every child has a school place. I urge my local right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles authority to continue doing that planning. Only this that she planned to refer to her comments. It was not week I contacted the local authority to highlight the clear from the hon. Lady’s remarks whether she had. fact that the latest information that I have received from Could you confirm that it is normal practice for hon. Norfolk county council shows that 17 of the 25 infant, Members who wish to refer to other hon. Members in junior or primary schools listed in my constituency are that way to observe the usual courtesies? forecast to exceed their current capacity. We could turn that sentence several ways around. We Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): It is up to could talk about “forecast to exceed their current capacity” the hon. Lady whether she wishes to answer, but it is or we could talk about the schools needing to provide normal courtesy to let an hon. Member know if you are more places for local children. The Government have going to mention them or their constituency. put the funding in place for that to happen and I welcome that greatly. I think it stands in stark contrast Chloe Smith: I welcome your guidance, as always, to the attitude of those Labour Members who lost sight Mr Deputy Speaker. In this case I shall be happy to go of what their own Government did, cutting 200,000 and address the matter directly with the right hon. primary school places in the middle of a baby boom Member for Salford and Eccles. Her comments are, of while letting immigration soar. It stands in great contrast course, already a matter of public record, having been to the actions of that party in failing to give Norfolk a repeated on various media outlets this week. fair funding formula. I also think, for what it is worth, I come back to the current Labour party and its views that it stands in great contrast to what some Members, on parents, parental choice and free schools. It does not notably the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles accept that parents want better for their children. It (Hazel Blears), seem to think of Norfolk, and I suspect does not accept that parents want the security of the that my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben best possible education they can find for their children. Gummer) agrees with me. We were dumbfounded to I do not think that it accepts that we ought to have hear the right hon. Lady, who is not in her place—perhaps higher ambition for many of our children. Data released she is in another television studio, saying the same thing in June show that Norwich, my city, has been the worst right now, actually— city in England for GCSE results. That is a shocking statement— Tristram Hunt: Who told you to say this?

Chloe Smith: The right hon. Lady has been out on the Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The debate title is “Infant airwaves repeatedly this week, suggesting that Norfolk, Class Sizes”. I have been very lenient and allowed some in the form of Norwich, and Suffolk, in the form of latitude, but that does not mean that we can concentrate Ipswich, ought to be some kind of dumping ground for on GCSE results. [Interruption.] Order. Mr Fuller, you the rest of the country. I do not think that is a respectful should know better than to point while I am in the or constructive attitude to my constituency or that of middle of giving good advice. Let us keep the debate to my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich. the subject of infant class sizes, and I will allow some latitude, but not too much. That is what Labour appears to think of Norwich and Norfolk. It also appears to think— Chloe Smith: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I welcome your advice. The topics are linked because Kevin Brennan: Will the hon. Lady give way? they relate to what a local authority can do for the children under its care, and I am coming to the subject Chloe Smith: Of course; I would be delighted. Perhaps of Norfolk county council. Labour Members laugh. the hon. Gentleman could tell us what he thinks of They should be ashamed to the depths of their souls to Norfolk. be heard laughing at the children of Norfolk. The hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) should come Kevin Brennan: I think Norfolk is delightful. Can the to Norfolk. No doubt he would campaign against me if hon. Lady confirm, for the record, that she told my he did, but he would have to justify laughing at the right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles point that I am trying to make, which is that over half (Hazel Blears) that she was going to mention her views of Norwich 16-year-olds recently left school without in the course of the debate, to give her the opportunity, five GCSEs at grades A* to C including English and if she so wished, to come to the Chamber and to put her Maths. Perhaps he laughs at the future that awaits side of the case? That is the normal courtesy? them; perhaps he laughs at the idea that those are not only figures but real people; perhaps he laughs at the Chloe Smith: My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich idea that those people may now struggle to gain a job and I have discussed the matter with the right hon. and that some of them may not be able to read, write, Member for Salford and Eccles. Perhaps Labour Front- add or function very well. That is all extremely serious. Bench Members would like to accord colleagues the same courtesy in the endless visits they will now be This is about the ambition that we have for our making around the country, as they always do. I distinctly children. It is about how we manage the school system remember making a point of order in this place five to allow for that ambition. All those children are being years ago, when a member of the then Labour Government let down if we say that low ambition is acceptable. failed to accord me the due courtesy of telling me that they were going to visit my constituency. Toby Perkins rose— 377 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 378

Chloe Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman have ambition whom I represent and I want to see those constituents for Norfolk’s children? served well, with a better tone of debate than we have seen at times this afternoon. Toby Perkins: I am very interested in the topic that the hon. Lady is talking about. She is obviously very 5.56 pm concerned about the education of children in Norfolk. What would she say to the parents of the 283 extra Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): It is a children now being taught in classes of more than 30 in pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Norwich North Norfolk under this Government? What would she say (Chloe Smith). We are both graduates of the university to them about their educational chances, because they of York, of which I am very proud, and I am sure she is are being failed by this Government, are they not? too. I want to echo the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), who spent 10 years on his local Chloe Smith: I would say that they are looking for authority before being elected to this place; I did likewise. respect in this debate. They are looking for honesty and I should declare an interest. First, I am the father of for figures to be used responsibly. They are looking for a three children, all of whom attended local infant and Government who are putting right the messes of the junior schools in Pudsey, Leeds. Secondly, I was a city previous Government. The hon. Gentleman stood up councillor in Leeds for 10 years and I was on the to make the preceding speech, for which I thank him—of education committee, ending up as chair of that committee, course, I should have observed that courtesy at the before being elected here. Thirdly, I have seen at first beginning of my comments—and I thank him for reminding hand, as I am sure have many hon. Members, the effect us what schools were like in the years following 1997. I of smaller class sizes on the quality of a child’s education— sat in a classroom of more than 30 pupils when I was at both the children of my constituents and, of course, my school, in a Norfolk comprehensive, so I have personal own children, who attended what was then a separate experience, should the hon. Gentleman wish to hear it, infant school in Pudsey. of having been at school under Tony Blair. You are If the current trend in the growth of class sizes about to remind me, Mr Deputy Speaker, to return to continues, it will be tragic for the educational prospects the subject of infant class sizes. of our children, because within six years from now up to 450,000 young children could be in classes of over 30. Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): My hon. Friend was Time and again we have heard evidence that has pointed an infant. to the educational benefits of small class sizes. Many right hon. and hon. Members have mentioned that. Chloe Smith: At one time I was an infant. I shall now That is especially the case for children between the ages return to the point in hand. of four and seven. It is no coincidence that one of the We need to set out high ambition for our children strongest selling points for fee-paying private schools is from infant school through to the point where our small class sizes. Surely that is what we would all like for young people emerge into the world. I want children to every child. I am sure that no hon. Member would be told about the stars and to be taught how to get disagree with that. there. I want them to be well educated and equipped Like every hon. Member, since 2010 I have dealt with with a passport to the world of work after that. I want a growing number of parents who cannot get their child them to be an asset to their city and their family and to into the school of their choice. They face either an themselves. I want to see our local authority continuing appeal, which if won leads to larger class sizes, or their to pull its act together, which it has done in recent years child attending a school miles away, often in a very in Norfolk, and I want to see our local authority different community. Imagine the anxiety of so many continuing to apply those high educational standards. parents whose child cannot attend the same school as I will continue to work with that authority to ensure an older sibling; other Members have mentioned that. It that the funding being made available by this Government is even worse when three children in a family are forced benefits Norwich and Norfolk children in their infant to attend three separate schools, as has happened to school experience. I do that because I believe in peace of some of my constituents. The hon. Member for North mind for parents. I believe they deserve the security of a Swindon talked about choice, but what choice does that decent and ambitious education for their children. We situation leave parents in my Leeds North East constituency? owe those children and their parents honesty and a There is no choice. responsible approach to their money and their choice. It is the same old Labour party; on the last count, it would Toby Perkins: My hon. Friend talks about choice. Is spend the same money 12 times over. It is dishonest to there not a difference between the experience of some of do so. It is also disrespectful to knock the choice of his constituents who have three children all going to hundreds of my constituents who attend free schools in different schools and that of the entire Government, Norwich. The Labour party does not understand parental who all seem to have been to the same school? choice and does not understand good quality. It does not understand the taxpayers or their money. It has no Fabian Hamilton: I absolutely agree with my hon. plan on this point. Friend. To sum up, I am backing those parents in Norwich. We talk about choice, but we should recognise that They want that peace of mind for their children’s schooling. surplus places are needed for that. We have made that funding available to put right the Labour party’s wrongs in culling 200,000 school places Mr Gibb: I went to a state school in Pudsey—Pudsey at the height of the baby boom. This is intensely relevant Bolton Royd school—for three weeks. Is the hon. to Norwich. I want to see this put right for the constituents Gentleman aware that between 2007 and 2011 the Labour 379 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 380

[Mr Gibb] primary school places have been created under this Government, but what use are they if all of them, or at Government gave £16 million to Leeds for basic need, least very many, are in the wrong places? As always with whereas between 2011 and 2015—a similar period—this the coalition, choice is greater for those who already Government allocated £99 million? Can he explain why have it but denied to those in greatest need. the figure between 2007 and 2011 was so small when there It is interesting to look back at some of the statements was already evidence of an increase in the birth rate? made by the Prime Minister when he was Leader of the Opposition. I think that my hon. Friend the Member Fabian Hamilton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) has already quoted this intervention. Of course I cannot explain that in detail, one, but I will quote it again to remind Members of because I was not party to the decisions made at the what he said to the Yorkshire Post, of all newspapers, on time. What I can explain is that at that time there were 18 April 2008: falling rolls and a number of surplus places in the city “A Conservative Government will give many more children of Leeds, and many of us argued with our own Government access to the kind of education that is currently only available to that in order to have true parental choice there must be the well-off: safe class rooms, talented and specialist teachers, surplus places and that inevitably the birth rate would access to the best curriculum and exams, and smaller schools with go up. smaller class sizes with teachers who know the children’s names.” I remember well Fir Tree primary school in my He went on to say: constituency. The local authority was controlled by the “The more we can get class sizes down, the better.” Conservatives and Lib Dems—it was a foretaste of So what went wrong? We now have more than five times the coalition that we have in government today, but in as many primary schools with over 800 pupils in England Leeds city council—and it decided to close that school. than we had in 2010. According to the Office for National I was one of the many people who said, “Don’t close it, Statistics, three times more infants—93,665—are now because it’s likely that we will have a rising birth rate”, taught in classes of over 30 pupils than in 2010. As a which is exactly what has happened, and that debate is Leeds MP and former chair of the city’s education very current in that part of my constituency today. committee, it troubles me, as well as every parent in the I do not think that the issue of overcrowding in some city, that the number of infants in classes of over of our schools is particularly related to the insistence on 30 pupils increased from 568 in January 2010 to 2,346 in smaller class sizes; rather, it is related to the dogmatic January 2014—an increase of 313%. That is a poor insistence on the establishment of free schools, as many testament to this Government’s oft-boasted commitment right hon. and hon. Members have already mentioned. to our children’s education and a complete contradiction I hope that I will not upset my hon. Friend the of the Prime Minister’s promise made in 2008, and shadow Secretary of State by saying this, but personally many times since. I am not opposed to free schools in principle. However, Sadly, it is not the Prime Minister or his Government I am totally opposed to the funding for those schools who will suffer as a result of these broken promises but being top-sliced from the budgets for local authority the thousands of young children whose educational schools. That is appalling. Local authorities should opportunities will be reduced as a result of this failure— plan school places; that should not be removed from often those in the most deprived parts of our country local authorities. I have never understood the antipathy who never had much opportunity to start with. The of those on the Government Benches to the idea of Secretary of State should hang her head in shame at the allowing local authorities the democratic accountability way in which these children have been let down by a that they bring when they plan school places. It seems Government who promised so much and have delivered appalling that we have almost a free-for-all in the allocation so little. of places. Mill Field primary school is in the very deprived Kevin Brennan: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Chapeltown, Chapel Allerton part of Leeds North East. Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North Its head teacher, Stephen Watkins, one of the most East (Fabian Hamilton) mentioned the Secretary of experienced primary heads in west Yorkshire, tells me State. Apparently, while our debate is going on, the that the rule on class size limits at key stage 1 is now Secretary of State is participating in a live video webchat “widely ignored”, mainly because local authorities cannot with The Times Educational Supplement rather than open new schools in response to local demand. He says attending the debate that she opened and listening to that the decisions of independent review panels will the remarks that my hon. Friend has just made. Is that often be to admit pupils in spite of the class size ceiling within the courtesies of the House? being a maximum of 30 pupils. The result is not only larger class sizes but a lot of primary schools that are Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Mr Brennan, now so large that they have many hundreds of children you know very well that that is definitely not a point of on their rolls. order. You know as well as I do that as long as there is a Minister on the Front Bench, that suffices for the debate According to the Office for National Statistics, more taking place. We all want to get the speeches in, and I babies were born in 2011-12 than at any time since 1972, want to hear you later as well—in which case, let us get which means demand for primary school places is set to under way. soar and put even more pressure on the system in 2015 and 2016. But what is the Government’s response? It is 6.8 pm the creation of more free schools—schools that have little or no public scrutiny of their operations, at the Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): I am quite expense of areas of high need, as highlighted by many pleased that the Secretary of State is doing her job in Members. It is all very well to say that 500,000 new articulating our excellent policies on education to the 381 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 382 public of the United Kingdom. I hope that the hon. on away-days related to the subjects we are considering. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) informed We looked at school places in 2013 and visited the right the Secretary of State of his comments, as my hon. hon. Lady’s constituency to see the pressures that migration Friend the Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith) and immigration have brought to our country. We visited informed the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles the Gascoigne primary school on the Gascoigne estate. (Hazel Blears) about raising her non-appearance previously. I can honestly say that I was both shocked at the size of I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I inadvertently this second biggest primary school in the whole country did not catch your eye in the right order. I was not and amazed by the quality of teaching being delivered looking at you and did not bounce up at the appropriate by the teachers. Even though numerous languages were time. spoken at the school—I believe there were 70 of them at that particular time, but I might be wrong—and that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Do not one class had had a turnover of nearly 80% during the worry about it—obviously your chat was more important previous school year, a fantastic education was still than catching my eye. happening. Although class sizes are very important—I guess this is the point I was trying to make to the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins)—so is quality Chris Heaton-Harris: I can’t answer that, can I? teaching, and I saw some excellent examples of it on It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Leeds that particular day. North East (Fabian Hamilton). There have been a The pressures faced by that particular school and number of interesting contributions by Opposition catchment area in Barking are so different from those in Members, as well as a reasonable amount of confusion. my constituency that I do not think it is possible honestly I left midway through the speech by the hon. Member to say that a one-size-fits-all education policy will work for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander). I was agreeing for the two areas. More flexibility and more different with a lot of what she said until she got to the bit where types of schools—the more choice we give people—means she decided that free schools were a poisonous idea in we can provide a better education for the kids who go to the British education system. After this debate, and school in Barking and in Daventry. Having exactly the given what the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. same system is not the best thing. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), School places is a very political subject. Members of said, I would be fascinated to know what exactly the the Public Accounts Committee get to read the odd Opposition’s policy is on free schools. National Audit Office report, which are excellent and My constituency is fairly well-off and has a very low provide us with lots of statistics, one of which I mentioned unemployment rate—the long-term economic plan is when I intervened on the shadow Secretary of State. It working very nicely in Daventry, and I think most of is true that the previous Government cut 200,000 primary my constituents want to make sure that it is a Conservative school places in the middle of a baby boom, at a time Government who keep that going after the general election when immigration and migration were soaring. The stat —but it does have areas of rural deprivation and there was from the report “Capital funding for new school are other needs. A group of parents got together because places”, dated March 2013. The exact statistic was that they want to form a free school for children of all ages “the number of primary places fell by almost 207,000 (5 per cent) with special educational needs. There is a need for such between 2003/04 and 2009/10.” a school in my constituency and, indeed, the general We are chucking statistics around, as we can in this area of my part of west Northamptonshire. I wonder debate—it is really easy to do in education—but they whether the Opposition’s policy is to tell those parents sometimes do not tell the whole story. and children who need special provision, “No; because With a growing population, there will always be you happen to live in what we perceive to be one of the pressure on school places. The hon. Member for Leeds better parts of the country, you can’t have that educational North East mentioned the baby boom that we have just need.” That is a very dicey approach to policy. had. To deal with that will require intense planning and It is a shame we have not taken a step back during investment in our education system in a very short this debate and considered educational needs across the period, and it would test any Government to match country, because they are so varied in every location. I school places with population in those circumstances. know that my constituency is remarkably different from To be quite honest, if we look behind the scenes at many others. where this Government have already delivered some school places, we can see that although they could do I have the privilege of sitting on the Public Accounts better—every Government could do better—it is not Committee and I will make a few points with regard to doing as badly as he made out. that in a moment when I talk class sizes. The Chairman of the Committee is a feisty Member of Parliament and I am pleased that this Government are giving councils represents Dagenham and Redbridge—[Interruption.] £5 billion to spend on new school places during this Sorry, she is Barking, isn’t she? Parliament, which is double the amount allocated by the previous Government over a similar period. Some 260,000 new school places have been created under this Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I don’t think Government. The majority, although not all, of them she is. are where there is a shortage of places now. The population is growing in Daventry, as it is in urban centres: not all Chris Heaton-Harris: God, I hope Hansard does not such places will be created in the places of highest need, pick that comment up. because there is an equal need across the whole country. The right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) I am very lucky to have a university technical college is an excellent Committee Chairman: she is feisty and in my constituency. It gives a different type of education interrogates her witnesses very well. Occasionally we go to secondary pupils, and it is doing remarkably well. It 383 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 384

[Chris Heaton-Harris] It would be nice to hear Opposition Front Benchers say that they understand that there are different needs is in addition to the provision that already exists, but it in different parts of the country and that a one-size-fits-all is needed. We can see from the increase in the birth rate education policy with the same provision all over the now that we will need such secondary places in the years place simply will not work to the benefit of all our to come. That sensible investment in education infrastructure children. is much needed by my constituents, but I understand that other Members will want to ensure that equal 6.21 pm provision is made for theirs. Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): It is a pleasure to I do like free schools, because they add something to follow the hon. Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton- the mix. When the Opposition have a sensible debate on Harris). It was interesting to hear him draw on his free schools, I hope in future that they will not just cast experiences on the Public Accounts Committee. That their eye over them and think, “It’s a Conservative idea, was a good contribution. therefore it’s a bad one.” If we look at where the idea I disagreed with the hon. Gentleman fundamentally was spawned and where communities have been helped on one point. He said that education should not be the in America and Sweden, we can see that the schools—they same throughout the country. Of course, he was right are not what we would call free schools but the set-up is about that. However, education never has been the same similar—have delivered an amazing level of education everywhere in the country and it certainly did not to pupils in areas of the greatest need. Free schools become the same under the last Labour Government. could be a part, if just a part, of the solution to some of We actively supported specialist schools and introduced the issues raised by Opposition Members. academies. Far more choice was generated by the Labour Seven out of 10 free school places in this country Government than we are given credit for. have been created in areas of most need. Although neither the hon. Gentleman nor the Opposition want education to be exactly the same, one thing that Tristram Hunt: Another dodgy stat. we do want to be the same is the opportunity for all children. That, plainly, is not the case at the moment. Chris Heaton-Harris: It is not a dodgy stat, actually. Equal opportunity is not afforded to all children regardless As 78% of statistics are made up on the spot, some of of their background. That is why this debate counts. It them will be vaguely rogue, but that one is true. is not about a very small area of the garden. We are The Government are spending £18 billion on school talking not just about infant school class sizes nudging buildings during this Parliament, which is more than up over 30, but about what that means for the future. double the amount that Labour spent in its first two We are talking not just about the children who are now Parliaments. A lot of good stuff is going on in our experiencing education in very large classes, but about education system. what that means as it continues. I remember being at I want to return briefly to the Public Accounts school in the ’80s under a Tory Government—we are all Committee’s report on “Capital funding for new school talking about when we were educated—when class sizes places” from back in March 2013. If we took a tiny part were much larger than they are now. I do not wish to see of the politics out of this issue and looked just at our that for children who are currently in infant schools. headline findings, we would see, first, that there was a When they get to secondary school, will they still be reasonable level of agreement between both sides of the taught in classes that are larger and larger? The detriment House, and secondly, an understanding that we needed is exaggerated as a child gets older. a bespoke solution for pretty much every part of the I am particularly concerned about this matter because country, because educational needs are very different in I see the huge disparity between the outcomes for every part of the country. One of our conclusions was: the 7% of children who are privately educated, with the “The Department was slow to respond to the rising demand opportunities that they can access—they do very well—and for school places.” the outcomes for the 93% of young people who are educated in state schools. That issue has been well debated. The That was a fair criticism. However, we understood the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission has had reasons. We took evidence from the permanent secretary. a huge amount to say about the critical role of education As the hon. Member for Leeds North East said, if one in providing better opportunities to kids from all looks at how the birth rate accelerated in 2011-12, one backgrounds. can see that it is very difficult to predict. I was quite impressed by the structure and processes that the According to the OECD, state primary schools have Department has in the background. It grabs the statistics class sizes with four or more pupils larger than those in from the Office for National Statistics and then looks at independent schools. The difference in secondary schools birth rates and migration trails to work out where the is significantly worse. Average class sizes in UK state resources would be best placed in the education system. secondary schools are more than double those in I did not even know that that happened before we took independent schools at 21.1 compared with 10. that evidence. Justin Tomlinson: The hon. Lady is giving a The Department has improved the way in which it characteristically great speech. I agree with absolutely targets money to areas of need, but there are still gaps everything that she has said. Will she therefore explain in the understanding of the full costs of delivering new the logic of the last Government cutting 200,000 places, places. The Department was getting there two years thus denying people opportunity and choice? ago. If one looks at the Treasury minutes and the outcomes of what we found, the Department has improved Jenny Chapman: When I consider the issue I look at even further. There is therefore good news as well as what is happening now, and numbers in my constituency bad. have risen by 66%—66% more infant school pupils are 385 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 386 being taught in classes of more than 30. That is happening surplus places and there was demand for places in those now, and I am interested in what the Government will schools, and that the right decision would not have been do to fix it. to go and expand another popular school somewhere I am a bit like some of my colleagues who said that else. I accept the hon. Gentleman’s criticism of BSF up they did not want to upset the shadow Secretary of to a point, but this Government have gone too far the State—of course I do not want to upset him. I do not other way. There needs to be some kind of procedure to think he would be upset by what I am about to say, but I ensure that money is spent where it is needed, and I have do not produce a lot of antibodies at the mention of a not heard any real answer to that throughout the debate. free school. In Darlington we have a school that is a free school in name only. It was established by a local Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Is the hon. academy that wanted extra provision for pupils with Lady aware that in my constituency there were, I think, special needs. We are a pragmatic bunch in Darlington six secondary schools, and that from today there are and will go where the money is. These days, if we want seven? The reason their number has grown—the reason capital money, we make ourselves a free school—“Thank we needed a new school—was that one school was good you very much, we’ll have one of those.” We have that and five were poor. The creation of a new school will and it is going fine. There was not a peep out of me as a give the other children the chance to do well. Labour MP or the Labour council. We will get on with it, and if it gets us the outcomes we need for young Jenny Chapman: I am not familiar with the situation people in the town, that is what we will do. in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, and he did not actually tell me where his constituency was, so I am We have another free school that is a little more slightly disadvantaged, but I support the idea of looking unusual because it is a private school that decided it at the choices parents make, and where there is pressure would like to become a free school. That got me scratching on a small but popular school, I favour its expansion to my head a little—I think that finances may have been a enable parental choice, if that can be done without little tight, which may have focused its mind on that harming the educational standards of the students already transition. However, as a good socialist, the opportunity there. Opposition Members have supported that approach to take away a fee-paying school and make education in their constituencies for years, so I do not see it as a available to all was not something I was going to let point of debate. pass by, and I have worked with those trying to set up the free school and wish it every success. It will be My concern is about the standard of education afforded relatively small and will help to provide the additional to children being taught in extremely large classes. I places that we may need in Darlington, particularly for queried our briefing on this debate, which said there primary education. were classes of 70, and I could not believe it possible—it is not something I have ever witnessed—but I was I have listened to colleagues from different parts of assured that it was happening. If so, it is an urgent the country and it is clearly not the experience everywhere problem that must be addressed immediately. It would that the additional resources—scarce though they are—are be galling if hon. Members, such as my hon. Friend the following the additional need. That is where our objection Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), saw lies. This is not about governance. We are quite relaxed money being spent in other boroughs, while her parents about different forms of governance in education, as cannot get their children into classes of reasonable sizes. we can prove by our record. It is about ensuring that we spend the money where it needs to be spent, so that It might seem like we are picking at a sore just to we do not end up with class sizes creeping up slowly make a political point, but that is not it; this is about the over time. future and what it signals not just for young people being educated now, but for all children as they progress through their school careers. We must nip this problem Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Everyone in the bud because if it continues it will only get worse, would agree that capital spend, limited as it always is, and children’s secondary education will be affected far should focus on areas of greatest need, but does the more. Schools are probably managing quite well now, so hon. Lady recognise that the problem in Enfield was this is more about the future than the argument over that the previous Government did not follow that through? free schools or what the last Labour Government spent They focused on Building Schools for the Future to on school buildings. I am proud of what that Government fund secondary school buildings, and £1 million spent achieved. In 1997, we had outdoor toilets in schools in on consultants and not a brick laid to build more. Our Darlington, but we rebuilt, I think, every primary school primary schools were bursting at the seams, and desperately in the town. Outcomes for young people and children in need of what they have now achieved in terms of there have soared ever since; the achievement gap between doubling spending and getting more primary school the highest and lowest achievers has narrowed, and the places. That is what the Government are now doing. achievement of the top kids has got even better. That is a great record, and I am very proud of it, and it would Jenny Chapman: I do not know the situation in be a shame if we let something like class sizes prevent Enfield, obviously, but I recognise the Building Schools that opportunity from being afforded to young people for the Future that the hon. Gentleman describes. I growing up now. tried to get BSF money for Darlington for three schools that badly needed it, and found the process absolutely 6.32 pm tortuous. The process was perhaps too heavy and too rigorous, but it was there to ensure that resources went Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): We have had an to the schools that needed them most. We had to interesting and well-informed debate with contributions demonstrate that the places we were creating and building from hon. Members on both sides of the House, including capacity for would be needed, that we were not creating my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi 387 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 388

[Kevin Brennan] moment—that the coalition Government have now introduced compulsory setting, in that the two Schools Alexander), who is no longer in her place, but who Ministers are not allowed to be in the same room at the spoke passionately about the waste of resources when same time. That perhaps explains why the right hon. her constituency desperately needed school places. Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws) is not here with us this We also heard from the hon. Member for North afternoon. Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), who said he worked at the However, it would be useful if the Minister in this debate coal face in Swindon for many years and claimed to be would clarify in his winding-up speech—[Interruption] above party politics—before launching into his highly —after he has finished reading the Parliamentary Private partisan comments. My hon. Friend the Member for Secretary’s telephone—the whole shambolic issue around Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) said that my hon. Friend setting, which we have heard about today. We have not the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) really had clarity today; we have just had chaos, in what and I were glad to see the previous Secretary of State is, after all, the first major policy announcement by the go. May I correct him? We were disappointed that he Secretary of State. It would be good if this House were left, because the polls were showing the impact he was told exactly what is going, rather than our having to try having on voters—not just teachers, but parents. Had to find out from Twitter. Despite the Secretary of State’s he carried on, we would have been heading for a landslide. earlier remarks about not relying on Twitter for such Nevertheless, we now have the continuity Secretary of information, we have to, unless we get it in the Chamber, State. which is where we should first hear of such things. We heard from the hon. Member for Norwich North The first duty of any Education Minister is to ensure (Chloe Smith), who also is not in her place, and from a sufficiency of good school places where they are my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North East needed. The figures that have been unearthed in recent (Fabian Hamilton), who, like the hon. Member for weeks and which have been highlighted in today’s debate North Swindon, served for 10 years as a local councillor, show that the Government have failed in that basic as did I—it is obviously a common apprenticeship for duty. We all remember the pledge, which has been this House. We also heard from the hon. Member for mentioned in the debate, in the 2010 Conservative manifesto, Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris), who said it was easy when the Prime Minister promised to bandy about statistics, and then immediately did so “small schools with smaller class sizes” himself, copiously.We then heard, as usual, a common-sense and said, contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for “the more we can get class sizes down, the better”. Darlington (Jenny Chapman), who said we were looking not for uniformity, but for equality of opportunity. She That pledge has turned out to be as worthless as a Lib was exactly right, as she was about how resources Dem pledge on tuition fees, because we have seen a should follow need—a point, in fact, that touches precisely 200% increase in the number of infants in larger class on the nature of this debate. sizes over 30 since 2010, and the pressure on places is growing. I am sorry that, even after that preamble, the Secretary of State has not been able to return from her live web Toby Perkins: I am prompted to rise to my feet by my chat, after opening the debate, to be here for the wind-ups. hon. Friend’s mention of the Liberal Democrats. I I am sorry about that, Mr Speaker, and if I refer to her wonder whether he would like to reflect on the fact that in her absence, it is not through choice. we have had a debate on schools with not a single It is always a bit of a lottery seeing who will turn up contribution from a Liberal Democrat Member. Is it to education debates these days, because the Department not remarkable, when we think of what the Liberal for Education has become so dysfunctional after four Democrats once were, that we can get through an entire years of being run by a right-wing ideologue and his debate on education without a single Liberal Democrat crazed advisers that we have not one, but two Schools thinking it worth actually turning up and speaking? Ministers. One is the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), whom I am sincerely Kevin Brennan: I apologise for provoking my hon. delighted to welcome back to his place on the Front Friend, but as I think I explained earlier, this is all part Bench today. Despite our disagreements, we have always of the Secretary of State’s new policy on setting, in that got on very well on a personal level, and I am glad that the Lib Dems are set in a different group for this subject he was resuscitated by the Prime Minister, in the recent and are not allowed to participate in our discussions. botched reshuffle, to placate the right wing of the That pledge by the Prime Minister turned out to be Conservative parliamentary party. It is his job, we are worthless, so one would think, under the circumstances, told by the Prime Minister, to preserve the legacy of his that every sinew of ministerial effort at the Department former boss, who has now been forced into a vow of for Education would be straining at the task of tackling silence as the Chief Whip. this issue—that no distraction from the cause of meeting The other Schools Minister—the yellow variety—who the challenge would be allowed and that scarce resources seems to have become an invisible man these days in would be prioritised for the issue, with money spent on debates on schools in the Chamber, is obviously— creating school places where there is a real need. But no, because according to the National Audit Office, two Ben Gummer: He is working hard. thirds of the places created in the Government’s pet free schools project have been created outside areas classed Kevin Brennan: I am sure he is working hard—in his as having high or severe primary school need. The other job, in the Cabinet Office, dreaming up more Government try to claim that the programme is tackling fantasy Lib Dem manifesto pledges at the taxpayer’s the shortage of places, but the very essence of the expense. Indeed, it appears—just to be topical for a programme—a built-in design feature of the policy—is 389 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 390 that the distribution of free schools is essentially random. Government recognised that while overall numbers were The Department has received no applications to open falling at the time, in some areas, particularly in larger primary free schools in half of all districts with high or local authorities, more places would be needed. They severe forecast need for school places—not one. In fact, provided core capital funding of £400 million a year overall, only 38% of approved free schools are primary from 2007-8 to 2010-11 to cover local growth in demand schools, while over 40% of them are secondary. Given for places. Of course, the current Government never that secondary schools are typically double the size of acknowledge that in their attempt to create a smokescreen primary schools, despite the growth of “titan” ones about their role in the places crisis. under this Government, far more secondary school In addition, there was an annual “safety-valve”whereby places are being created than primary school ones, local authorities, if they felt they needed it, could apply which is where the greater need exists. As we have seen for additional funding to address exceptional growth. from the debate, there is an acute need. In other words, Until 2009, very few did, but in 2010-11, an extra £266 this Government’s insistence on ideology over pragmatism million was allocated to 36 authorities to provide primary in opening new schools is producing the wrong kind of places for September 2010 and 2011. schools—secondary—in the wrong places. That is the very definition of policy failure. Mr Gibb rose— Indeed, the National Audit Office found that 42 schools had opened in districts with no forecast need, with Kevin Brennan: I will let the Minister answer in his estimated capital costs of at least £241 million out of a winding-up speech; I do not want to eat into his time. projected total of £951 million for mainstream schools. That additional funding is never mentioned by Ministers That is not an accident. The Minister of State, Department seeking to deflect blame for their failure. In fact, in the for Education, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and last two years of the Labour Government, schools capital Littlehampton used to care passionately about class budgets were £4.08 billion and £4.44 billion; in the first sizes. He told “Daily Politics” back in 2009 that it was two years of this Government, they were £3.62 billion important to get class sizes down, and £3.1 billion—storing up huge issues for the future, “particularly at primary school level. This is really dramatic, how with the main maintenance and repair budget also big our class sizes are compared with other countries.” slashed. These cuts in capital make it all the more of a That is what he said in 2009, when there were 31,000 infant dereliction to direct funds away from areas in which children in class sizes over 30; by January this year, that places are needed. We will restore coherence to the had risen to 93,000, which really is dramatic. Before the system, and ensure that precious resources are spent general election, the Minister told BBC London: where those places are needed. We will also end the ludicrous system whereby Ministers approve new schools “A child can wander around corridors of a school anonymously because the teacher will not know the name and face of every and, in particular, new free schools, which is the child in the school. Smaller schools are much more intimate and Government’s current policy. it’s difficult for a child to be anonymous.” Members, including the Secretary of State, mentioned Those are fine words, but the number of titan primary Falcons Sikh free school in Leicester. It was due to open schools is soaring, with nearly five times the number of at the weekend, but at the last second the Under-Secretary, primary schools with over 800 pupils than in 2010. So Lord Nash, ditched it, leaving 70 pupils and their much for intimate smaller schools as promised by the parents high and dry and uncertain about the future. Minister. How could circumstances arise in which, the weekend before a school was due to open, a Minister had to What about this Minister’s views on trying to alleviate intervene to ensure that it did not do so? Where were the growing numbers by targeting the resources to areas checks along the way? Why was the process allowed to where there is a shortage rather than a surplus of reach that stage without the problem being picked up places? Here is what he said to “Attain Magazine” in earlier? We need answers to those questions, because spring 2010 about areas with surplus places: Falcons was exactly the sort of school that is supposed “If it has surplus places beyond a certain figure, 10%, they will to be providing the places that we say are needed in our at the moment resist any new school coming in because they’ve system. got to fill these places first. But we’re saying that’s irrelevant”. What a shambolic and wasteful way to run a school That was his attitude. “Irrelevant”—there we have it; it system! We will restore local accountability through is not an accident. Instead of directing resources to independent directors of school standards. We will stop where there is a shortage of places, more places are the waste, and build for the future. created where there is surplus of more than 10%. Why? Because right-wing ideology demands a market solution— creating an over-supply to drive out existing schools, 6.46 pm rather than operate supportive and collaborative systems The Minister of State, Department for Education such as the highly successful London Challenge approach (Mr Nick Gibb): We have had a very good debate, but I under Labour, which raised standards for all, and allow must admit that I was surprised by the Opposition’s investment in new places to happen where those places choice of subject, because they do not come to this issue are needed. with clean hands. There has been a steady increase in That is the ideology that lies at the root of the places the birth rate in this country since 2002. Between 2002 crisis that we are seeing today, and the attempts to and 2010, there was a 22% increase in the annual birth blame the last Labour Government are a smokescreen. rate. There were 120,000 more births in 2011 than there The number of pupils in primary schools was falling were in 2002. It should have been clear to the last between 2005 and 2010—it fell by 107,000—and the Labour Government that that would translate into a projections of increased numbers from the Office for need for more primary school places, but huge amounts National Statistics did not come until 2008-10. The last of taxpayers’ money was devoted to rebuilding existing 391 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 392

[Mr Nick Gibb] mainstream free schools are in areas of basic need of school places and 74% of free schools opening this secondary schools in the Building Schools for the Future September are in areas of basic need. He should also programme, and the Government cut 200,000 primary know that half of open free schools are in the most school places instead of creating more. deprived 30% of communities in the country. Free For that reason, one of the first decisions that the present schools are opening up opportunities in areas where Government had to make was to double the amount of parents are unhappy with the standard of education on money allocated to basic need capital— the money offer, and he should be supporting these proposals, as provided to increase the number of school places. Over his party colleague the hon. Member for Darlington is the whole Parliament, that amounts to some £5 billion, doing in a pragmatic way.The shadow Education Secretary and another £2.35 billion has already been announced should also know that in his own local authority of for 2015-17. That is in addition to the £820 million that Stoke-on-Trent the funding for new places under the the Government are spending to create more than 70,000 last Labour Government, between 2007 and 2011, was new places through the targeted basic need programme, £2.5 million, whereas under this Government it is and in addition to the 250 free schools which have been £12.5 million. opened since 2010 and are delivering more good-quality I listened very carefully to the speech of the hon. places in areas that need them. The £5 billion contrasts Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), and I with the £1.9 billion that was spent by the previous do understand the concerns she raised and the challenges Government over the same period—and I can tell the some parents face in securing primary school places: hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) that the proportion of people nationally who achieve their that does include the £400 million per year over four first place is about 95.7%, but in Lewisham that figure is years, the £60 million safety valve, and the emergency 75.5%, one of the lowest in the country, so I understand top-up of £250 million or £260 million which was the concerns she is raising. That is why we have allocated allocated when the last Government began to realise capital of some £96 million to Lewisham to try to tackle that there was a problem. that problem. This Government are committed to keeping infant My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon class sizes at or below 30 children, but we want to do so raised important points about new developments and in a way that will not split up twins or hinder our the need for new schools. He is right that the surplus objective of giving the best possible start to children in places rule should not force parents to send their children care. No one takes seriously the irresponsible scare to failing or underperforming schools which is why we stories from Opposition Front Benchers, which are abolished that rule, and he is also right to point out the reflected in their motion and based on a deliberate importance of building schools more efficiently using misreading of census data. The truth is that a single standard designs. That has resulted in huge savings snapshot taken on a Thursday in January will always being made in constructing new schools compared with reflect the fact that some schools bring classes together the wasteful Building Schools for the Future programme. for assembly, PE, or other lessons such as drama and We have cut the cost of construction of a new school by music. As the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny 40%, and he is right to point out that that will help in Chapman) should know, it is simply wrong to claim that applications for school places. Some 92% of parents in that means there are infant classes of 70. In fact, the Swindon got their first priority and 98% got one of average number of pupils in an infant class is 27.4. In their top three schools, so he is right to praise the local primary schools as a whole, the proportion of pupils in authority for what it has been doing. very large classes of 35 or more has fallen since 2010, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford and since 2010, nearly 4,500 infant classes have been (Richard Fuller) on his work, on the support he has added to our school sector. given to raising education standards in Bedford and on I listened very carefully to the shadow Education his support for Bedford free school. Parents support the Secretary’s speech. It beggars belief because he talked education standards of that school, the strong pastoral about titan schools, yet the last Government were the care and the exemplary behaviour delivered by its head past masters of creating titan schools, as they amalgamated teacher Mark Lehane and his staff. schools because of the surplus places rule that required local authorities to remove surplus places even while it Pat Glass: The Bedford free school is less than half was clear, as the hon. Member for Leeds North East full and is costing the taxpayer a great deal of money (Fabian Hamilton) pointed out, that the birth rate was per pupil. That is the evidence the Select Committee on increasing and that in four or five years’ time those Education has received. places would need to be recreated. What a waste, which is why this Government abolished the regulations that Mr Gibb: There are teething and transition issues as amount to the surplus places rule. new schools are established and as they establish their It was interesting to note, during the speech of my reputations. That school was established in the face of hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin fierce opposition from members of the hon. Lady’s Tomlinson), the shadow Education Secretary’s sedentary party, against the wishes of the parents who send their intervention that pupils should have to go to schools children to the school. They are very happy with that that are unpopular and underperforming before a new school and its reputation will grow in the years ahead. school can be built. It is the quality of schools that The hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) matter, just as much as the quantity. raised again the myth of larger class sizes, and I again The shadow Education Secretary complains about point out that the average infant class size is 27.4 and in the free school programme, but the 250 free schools primary schools as a whole the proportion of classes of have added 175,000 new school places, 72% of open over 35 has fallen since Labour left office. He seems also 393 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 394 to have a very dogmatic view about the infant class size academic standards in our schools, improving the quality rule, so he would rather refuse to give priority to looked-after of the curriculum and trust in the exam system, improving children or twins and send one twin off to another the way children are taught to read, improving their school, because otherwise the 30 class size rule would be arithmetic and mathematics and improving standards breached. That is a harsh and uncaring approach and of behaviour in our schools. This is a Government who most parents would share our approach and not his. are ambitious to make every parent’s local school a My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North good school and who are preparing young people for (Chloe Smith) has been working hard in her constituency life in modern Britain. That is our education plan; a to help schools to tackle the increasing demand for clear plan and a plan that is delivering. The Opposition primary places. I pay tribute to her for that important have no plan, no leadership, no clear sense of direction work and I am grateful for her welcome for the in its education policy. They are floundering in an area announcement of £2.35 billion for basic need over the of policy that could not be more important to the next three years, giving local authorities the time and long-term future of our economy— certainty to plan. Some £70 million of that money will go to Norfolk, bringing the total basic need capital in Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab) claimed Norfolk to £83 million compared with just £22 million to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). under the previous Labour Government. Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put. The hon. Member for Leeds North East made a Question agreed to. candid speech about the surplus places rule and about Main Question accordingly put. the fact it is short-termist to close schools when rolls are falling. If there is clear evidence that in a few years the The House divided: Ayes 200, Noes 296. rolls will rise again, it is better just to close a classroom, Division No. 44] [6.59 pm turn off the heating in that room and wait. He also talked about siblings not being able to attend the same AYES school, but he should know that schools can give preference Abbott, Ms Diane Cunningham, Mr Jim to siblings to avoid that problem. Abrahams, Debbie Cunningham, Sir Tony My hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Danczuk, Simon Heaton-Harris) spoke interestingly about the Public Alexander, Heidi David, Wayne Accounts Committee away day to Barking and Dagenham. Ali, Rushanara Davies, Geraint I seem to recall that during my days on the Public Allen, Mr Graham Denham, rh Mr John Accounts Committee we had more interesting away Anderson, Mr David Dobbin, Jim days than those which the right hon. Member for Barking Ashworth, Jonathan Dobson, rh Frank Austin, Ian Dowd, Jim (Margaret Hodge) has selected for her Committee. My Bailey, Mr Adrian Dromey, Jack hon. Friend pointed out that pressures in that local Balls, rh Ed Dugher, Michael authority area are very different from those in his Barron, rh Kevin Durkan, Mark constituency of Daventry, but that is why the Government Bayley, Hugh Eagle, Ms Angela have provided £148 million of capital for that very small Beckett, rh Margaret Eagle, Maria part of east London. That is a staggering sum of money Benn, rh Hilary Edwards, Jonathan to tackle the real problems with places in that constituency. Betts, Mr Clive Efford, Clive I welcome the speech made by the hon. Member for Blackman-Woods, Roberta Elliott, Julie Darlington and her pragmatic support for the free Blears, rh Hazel Ellman, Mrs Louise Blomfield, Paul Engel, Natascha school in her constituency, in contrast to the views of Blunkett, rh Mr David Esterson, Bill her Front-Bench team. She said that she queried the Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Evans, Chris Labour Whips’ briefing for this debate when she saw Brennan, Kevin Farrelly, Paul the reference to class sizes of 70 and she was right to do Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Field, rh Mr Frank so, because it is absolutely wrong. As I said, it is a Buck, Ms Karen Fitzpatrick, Jim misinterpretation of the census figures taken on one Burden, Richard Flello, Robert particular day when in some schools circumstances Burnham, rh Andy Flint, rh Caroline have led them to amalgamate classes for that one day Byrne, rh Mr Liam Flynn, Paul only. That does not mean that there are routinely classes Campbell, rh Mr Alan Fovargue, Yvonne of 70 in our schools in this country. Campbell, Mr Ronnie Gapes, Mike Action has been taken by this Government to create Caton, Martin Glass, Pat more good school places and local authorities are delivering. Champion, Sarah Glindon, Mrs Mary We have already seen an increase of 260,000 school Chapman, Jenny Goodman, Helen Clwyd, rh Ann Green, Kate places between 2010 and 2013, including 212,000 primary Coaker, Vernon Greenwood, Lilian places, with more than 300,000 primary places in the Coffey, Ann Griffith, Nia pipeline for delivery by September 2015. We are working Connarty, Michael Gwynne, Andrew closely with the local authorities across the country Cooper, Rosie Hain, rh Mr Peter facing the greatest pressures to support them in ensuring Cooper, rh Yvette Hamilton, Mr David that every child is offered a local school place. Corbyn, Jeremy Hamilton, Fabian That is this Government’s record, taking urgent action Crausby, Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David to correct the school place deficit left by the Labour Creagh, Mary Harman, rh Ms Harriet party in government, putting in money at a time when Creasy, Stella Havard, Mr Dai across Whitehall savings have had to be made to tackle Cruddas, Jon Healey, rh John the crisis of the budget deficit left by the Labour party Cryer, John Hendrick, Mark in government. This is a Government who are raising Cunningham, Alex Hepburn, Mr Stephen 395 Infant Class Sizes3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Infant Class Sizes 396

Heyes, David Perkins, Toby Blunt, Crispin Gray, Mr James Hillier, Meg Phillipson, Bridget Boles, Nick Grayling, rh Chris Hilling, Julie Qureshi, Yasmin Bone, Mr Peter Green, rh Damian Hodge, rh Margaret Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bottomley, Sir Peter Greening, rh Justine Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reed, Mr Jamie Bradley, Karen Griffiths, Andrew Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr Steve Brady, Mr Graham Gummer, Ben Howarth, rh Mr George Reeves, Rachel Brake, rh Tom Gyimah, Mr Sam Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Emma Bray, Angie Hague, rh Mr William Irranca-Davies, Huw Reynolds, Jonathan Brazier, Mr Julian Halfon, Robert Jackson, Glenda Riordan, Mrs Linda Bridgen, Andrew Hames, Duncan James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, John Brine, Steve Hammond, rh Mr Philip Jarvis, Dan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brokenshire, James Hammond, Stephen Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Brooke, rh Annette Hancock, rh Matthew Johnson, Diana Roy, Lindsay Browne, Mr Jeremy Hancock, Mr Mike Jones, Graham Ruane, Chris Bruce, Fiona Hands, rh Greg Jones, Helen Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Buckland, Mr Robert Harper, Mr Mark Jones, Mr Kevan Sawford, Andy Burns, Conor Harrington, Richard Jones, Susan Elan Seabeck, Alison Burns, rh Mr Simon Harris, Rebecca Kane, Mike Shannon, Jim Burrowes, Mr David Hart, Simon Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra Burstow, rh Paul Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Burt, rh Alistair Hayes, rh Mr John Kendall, Liz Sheridan, Jim Burt, Lorely Heald, Sir Oliver Khan, rh Sadiq Skinner, Mr Dennis Byles, Dan Heath, Mr David Lavery, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Cable, rh Vince Heaton-Harris, Chris Leslie, Chris Smith, rh Mr Andrew Cairns, Alun Hemming, John Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Smith, Angela Carmichael, Neil Henderson, Gordon Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Nick Cash, Sir William Hendry, Charles Lucas, Ian Smith, Owen Chishti, Rehman Herbert, rh Nick Mactaggart, Fiona Spellar, rh Mr John Clark, rh Greg Hinds, Damian Mahmood, Mr Khalid Straw, rh Mr Jack Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark Collins, Damian Hollingbery, George Mahmood, Shabana Stringer, Graham Malhotra, Seema Colvile, Oliver Hollobone, Mr Philip Stuart, Ms Gisela Mann, John Crouch, Tracey Holloway, Mr Adam Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Marsden, Mr Gordon Davey, rh Mr Edward Hopkins, Kris Tami, Mark McCabe, Steve Davies, David T. C. Horwood, Martin Thomas, Mr Gareth McCarthy, Kerry (Monmouth) Howarth, Sir Gerald McDonagh, Siobhain Timms, rh Stephen Davies, Glyn Howell, John McDonald, Andy Trickett, Jon Davies, Philip Hughes, rh Simon McDonnell, John Turner, Karl de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy McFadden, rh Mr Pat Twigg, Derek Dinenage, Caroline Hunter, Mark McGovern, Alison Twigg, Stephen Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian McGovern, Jim Umunna, Mr Chuka Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick McKinnell, Catherine Vaz, rh Keith Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Meacher, rh Mr Michael Vaz, Valerie Drax, Richard James, Margot Meale, Sir Alan Walley, Joan Duncan, rh Sir Alan Javid, rh Sajid Mearns, Ian Watts, Mr Dave Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jenkin, Mr Bernard Miliband, rh Edward Whitehead, Dr Alan Ellis, Michael Jenrick, Robert Miller, Andrew Williamson, Chris Ellison, Jane Johnson, Gareth Mitchell, Austin Wilson, Phil Eustice, George Johnson, Joseph Moon, Mrs Madeleine Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Evans, Graham Jones, Andrew Morris, Grahame M. Woodcock, John Evans, Mr Nigel Jones, rh Mr David Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr Marcus (Easington) Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Mudie, Mr George Fabricant, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Wright, David Munn, Meg Featherstone, rh Lynne Kelly, Chris Wright, rh Jeremy Murphy, rh Paul Field, Mark Kirby, Simon Onwurah, Chi Tellers for the Ayes: Foster, rh Mr Don Kwarteng, Kwasi Owen, Albert Nic Dakin and Fox,rhDrLiam Lamb, rh Norman Pearce, Teresa Tom Blenkinsop Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Freeman, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew NOES Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Adams, Nigel Baron, Mr John Garnier, Sir Edward Lee, Dr Phillip Afriyie, Adam Barwell, Gavin Garnier, Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Aldous, Peter Bebb, Guto Gauke, Mr David Leigh, Sir Edward Amess, Mr David Beith, rh Sir Alan George, Andrew Leslie, Charlotte Andrew, Stuart Bellingham, Mr Henry Gibb, Mr Nick Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Berry, Jake Glen, John Lewis, Brandon Bacon, Mr Richard Bingham, Andrew Goldsmith, Zac Lewis, Dr Julian Baker, Steve Binley, Mr Brian Goodwill, Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Baldry, rh Sir Tony Birtwistle, Gordon Gove, rh Michael Lidington, rh Mr David Barclay, Stephen Blackman, Bob Graham, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Barker, rh Gregory Blackwood, Nicola Grant, Mrs Helen Lloyd, Stephen 397 Infant Class Sizes 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 398

Lopresti, Jack Reevell, Simon Whittaker, Craig Wollaston, Dr Sarah Loughton, Tim Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Wright, rh Jeremy Luff, Sir Peter Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Wiggin, Bill Wright, Simon Lumley, Karen Robertson, Mr Laurence Willetts, rh Mr David Yeo, Mr Tim Macleod, Mary Rogerson, Dan Williams, Mr Mark Young, rh Sir George Maude, rh Mr Francis Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Roger Zahawi, Nadhim Maynard, Paul Rudd, Amber Williamson, Gavin Tellers for the Noes: McCartney, Jason Ruffley, Mr David Willott, Jenny Harriett Baldwin and McCartney, Karl Russell, Sir Bob Wilson, Mr Rob Dr Thérèse Coffey McIntosh, Miss Anne Rutley, David McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Sanders, Mr Adrian McPartland, Stephen Sandys, Laura Question accordingly negatived. Menzies, Mark Scott, Mr Lee Metcalfe, Stephen Selous, Andrew Business without Debate Miller, rh Maria Shapps, rh Grant Mills, Nigel Sharma, Alok DELEGATED LEGISLATION Milton, Anne Shelbrooke, Alec Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Shepherd, Sir Richard Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Mordaunt, Penny Simmonds, Mark Order No. 118(6)), Morgan, rh Nicky Smith, Chloe Morris, David Smith, Henry PUBLIC BODIES Morris, James Smith, Julian That the draft Public Bodies (Marine Management Organisation) Mosley, Stephen Soames, rh Sir Nicholas (Fees) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 13 May Mowat, David Soubry, Anna 2014, in the last Session of Parliament, be approved.—(Dr Thérèse Munt, Tessa Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Coffey.) Murray, Sheryll Spencer, Mr Mark Question agreed to. Murrison, Dr Andrew Stanley, rh Sir John Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Neill, Robert Stephenson, Andrew Order No. 118(6)), Newmark, Mr Brooks Stevenson, John Newton, Sarah Stewart, Bob COMPANIES Nokes, Caroline Stewart, Iain That the draft Community Interest Company (Amendment) Norman, Jesse Stewart, Rory Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on 26 June, Nuttall, Mr David Streeter, Mr Gary be approved.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.) Offord, Dr Matthew Stride, Mel Question agreed to. Ollerenshaw, Eric Stuart, Mr Graham Opperman, Guy Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Sturdy, Julian Order No. 118(6)), Paice, rh Sir James Swales, Ian Parish, Neil Swayne, rh Mr Desmond ELECTRICITY Patel, Priti Syms, Mr Robert That the draft Renewables Obligation Closure Order 2014, Paterson, rh Mr Owen Teather, Sarah which was laid before this House on 30 June, be approved.— Pawsey, Mark Thornton, Mike (Dr Thérèse Coffey.) Penning, rh Mike Timpson, Mr Edward Question agreed to. Penrose, John Tomlinson, Justin Percy, Andrew Tredinnick, David INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Perry, Claire Truss, rh Elizabeth STANDARDS AUTHORITY (MOTION) Phillips, Stephen Turner, Mr Andrew Pickles, rh Mr Eric Tyrie, Mr Andrew Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Pincher, Christopher Uppal, Paul Order No. 9(6)), Poulter, Dr Daniel Vickers, Martin That the Motion in the name of Mr William Hague relating to Prisk, Mr Mark Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority shall be Pritchard, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben treated as if it related to an instrument subject to the provisions of Pugh, John Ward, Mr David Standing Order No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees) in Raab, Mr Dominic Watkinson, Dame Angela respect of which notice has been given that the instrument be Randall, rh Sir John Weatherley, Mike approved.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.) Reckless, Mark Webb, rh Steve Question agreed to. Redwood, rh Mr John Wharton, James Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wheeler, Heather 399 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport Infrastructure 400 (Northumberland) Transport Infrastructure (Northumberland) Guy Opperman: I seem to be straying quite a way from Northumberland, and I have not made it past Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House page 1 of my speech, but my hon. Friend makes a fair do now adjourn.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.) point. Having driven through that village, I recognise that it needs a bypass. 7.14 pm The dependence on public transport in the rural Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): My constituents north is strong, and the importance of proper transport and I are grateful to you, Mr Speaker, for giving me the links cannot be overstated, whether it is for the children opportunity to have a debate on the transport infrastructure who are struggling to get to school, the patients who in Northumberland. This coalition Government inherited need to travel to urban-based hospitals or the many a massive debt, a serious recession and a country that thousands of tourists who visit Northumberland national needed turning around. In Northumberland, it also park, Hadrian’s wall and our county’s many attractions. inherited a transport infrastructure that has lacked On heritage, transport infrastructure is going full investment for some time. We now have a long-term circle. Northumberland is the birthplace of the father of economic plan that is slowly bringing this country out the railways, George Stephenson. He was born in June of recession, and we are beginning to put in place 1781 next to the Tyne in my constituency, and built the a regional north-east infrastructure plan and a first public steam railway between Liverpool and Northumberland infrastructure strategy that address Manchester in 1830. The industrial revolution and advances the need to improve roads, bridges, buses and railways. in transport emanated from the north east, yet our We also have the proposed future northern rail franchise transport legacy is showing its age. I am pleased to say and the work of Rail North and the electrification task that one of the finest examples of Victorian engineering, force to help progress developments in our rail services. Ovingham bridge, which was opened in 1883, is being I am here to speak up for our efforts to get better fully refurbished thanks to £3 million of pinch point transport infrastructure and help the economic recovery funding from the Department. In addition, Wark bridge continue as the northern hub cities of Carlisle and is being rebuilt thanks to the campaign that I started Newcastle-Gateshead become ever more connected, with Councillor Edward Heslop and many of the prosperous and creative with the jobs and infrastructure enterprising locals from Wark back in 2009. that we need and as we improve connectivity to Scotland I come now to the specifics and the issue of roads. All and Cumbria. of us welcome the widening of the A1 western bypass, especially between Lobley Hill and the A184 junction, Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): On the which will tackle congestion and speed up journey subject of connectivity to Scotland and Cumbria, does times. It is a key consequence of the Government’s my hon. Friend agree that in addition to our focus on Newcastle city deal. I for one will continue to push the the A69, the A66 is crucial? The Scotch Corner connection Chancellor, as part of the long-term economic plan, to to the under-used M6 has for years needed to be dualled; commit final funds for the Dual the A1 campaign, led the plans are in place, and the Department for Transport by, among others, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, my right hon. should act on that immediately. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), the local communities and the north-east chamber Guy Opperman: I endorse entirely what my hon. of commerce. This last stretch of dualling north of Friend says, but I will also make a very strong case for Morpeth will transform the north Northumberland the A69. economy and improve connectivity to Scotland, and, let us be blunt, save lives. John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con) rose— Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Would it Guy Opperman: On cue, my hon. Friend jumps to his not be a good idea, just weeks before the referendum, to feet. make it clear that we care about the link between the north-east and Scotland? An announcement on dualling John Stevenson: I lend my hon. Friend my support in the A1 would be very helpful. making his suggestions and representations. Like the A66, the A69 is key for Carlisle, and my constituents Guy Opperman: We could not make the case more would be delighted to see it dualled. In the short term, clearly that we care that the Scots stay as part of the we would like to see improvements to it. I suggest that Union and that we hope they say “No thanks” on he, my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The 18 September. Border (Rory Stewart) and I make representations to the Department about improving and ultimately dualling The A69 is the chief arterial route that connects east the A69. and west across the rural north. It is dualled between Newcastle and Hexham, but thereafter it is a notorious Guy Opperman: I entirely endorse that and certainly stretch of single-track road, with occasional dual passing have begun the process of meeting the Highways Agency points. It has seen too many accidents, and its limitations and the Department for Transport, following the meeting are holding back the growth of the economy in west that I had with the Secretary of State about the A69 Northumberland and Cumbria. earlier in the summer. As I said, I met the Secretary of State for Transport in the summer, I continue to make representations to Rory Stewart: Does my hon. Friend agree that if we the Department for Transport and the Highways Agency, look at dualling the A69, we should also look at creative and I very much hope that the three key Members of ideas such as a bypass and bridge at Warwick Bridge, to Parliament who are concerned with this road will be ensure that the misery of its inhabitants is alleviated? taking forward their commitment to trying to improve 401 Transport Infrastructure 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport Infrastructure 402 (Northumberland) (Northumberland) in many shapes and forms the A69 west of Hexham, time, and changes that make the railway competitive leading on into Carlisle. We accept—I will help the and more attractive to locals and tourists alike, with Minister on this point—that the present spending round integrated ticketing with other transport providers. In is committed up to 2016, but I want to make the case short, we want an improvement, not a contraction, of today that the upgrading of this crucial road should be the capacity and the services. in the frame for the investment programme post-2016, leading up to 2020. Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Finally, I come to the A696 as it heads to Otterburn, I am really enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech and he has which only last month saw another fatality. Clearly, that a well-deserved reputation as a local champion. I chair is not part of the DFT strategic road network, but I the Government’s electrification taskforce. Will he meet welcome the recent increase in the DFT integrated me outside this place to go through his proposals, so transport block funding, paid by the Department to that I know much more about what is necessary for the Northumberland county council for transport capital line and can take his proposals forward within the improvement schemes. The allocations to Northumberland taskforce? during the last four years have increased, and last year’s £1.9 million has now risen to £2.7 million. I will be Guy Opperman: One of the best advances of the liaising with my Ponteland and other Northumberland Secretary of State has been the creation of the electrification county councillors to pitch for improvements for this taskforce, and I am glad that a northern MP—in this road from capital funding. case, the Member for Harrogate—is leading the way, No speech on roads and infrastructure in such that we can make representations. The longer term Northumberland and the rural north could go ahead must see electrification of the Tyne Valley line, as it sits without a mention of the chronic potholes that we between the east coast line and the west coast line, both suffer. However, I must thank the DFT for the £5.6 million of which are electrified. Frankly, without that forward to alleviate some of our many potholes, and also payments movement we will struggle in the longer term, so I will for elsewhere in the north, such that the situation has meet my hon. Friend, as will other Members interested massively improved, although there are some in various in this area, and I genuinely welcome his intervention. parts of my constituency that, amazingly, have not been The increased capacity, customer service and satisfaction, addressed. which I understand are the key points of a franchise, are The Minister has particular responsibility for railways, what we seek going forward, and I can only add that so I turn my attention to the Tyne Valley line between the longer the franchise is awarded for, the greater the Newcastle and Carlisle. This is an essential link. It leaves prospects are for improvements. Newcastle, which again has just had an £8.6 million Given the time left to me, I will briefly make the point upgrade, paid for by the DFT, and carries significant about the Tyne Valley line that along with electrification freight and more than 1 million passengers a year we need to review the signalling processes and address through urban, commuter and rural areas. It connects the maximum speed on the line. I could talk at length thousands to their jobs, hospitals and schools, and about the stations and the Network Rail issues that provides connections for the long-distance services that apply to the line, but I will simply say that I have a emanate from Newcastle and Carlisle. I am in regular forthcoming meeting with Network Rail, at which I will contact with members of the excellent Tyne Valley rail raise the crossing points that concern so many people, users group, and I thank them and all the constituents as well as everything from the upgrades needed at who have written to me and made representations on Prudhoe station and to Bardon Mill station that are my blog or in any other way for their help both in being proposed. keeping me informed and in preparing for this speech. Looking to the future, the potential for the line is Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend vast. This northerly cross-country route needs greater agree that it is essential that funding is found for the attention. There are significant issues surrounding the Ashington-Blyth-Tyne line, to allow people from south-east timetable of the line, ticket retailing and the line’s Northumberland access to the Metro, and to Newcastle, integration with other modes of transport. The present Sunderland and other areas, which will benefit the local service features very out-of-date rolling stock. The Sprinter economy, jobs and the rest of it? and the infamous 1985 British Leyland Pacer trains desperately need improvement. The Pacers in particular Guy Opperman: It is crucial that Gilsland station is are uncomfortable, expensive in terms of lease and part of the local enterprise partnership’s strategic economic repair costs, are hot in the summer and cold in the plan, and that the plan is tied into the work done by the winter, lack wi-fi and offer limited luggage space, and LEP, the county council and the rural growth network, my constituents and our tourist visitors deserve better. and to the support that is then given, so that we have the Yet despite these limitations, our story locally is a integration and development of the transport links that positive one, because these last few years have seen we all look forward to. The electrification that we seek improvements. Frequency on the line has increased, in Northumberland should certainly include the parts passenger usage at stations west of Hexham has increased of the line that my hon. Friend mentions. markedly, and the service to smaller stations has also I am completely behind the Campaign to Open Gilsland improved. In that context, we have the Northern rail Station. The work of Julie Gibbon, local councillors franchise. We are all conscious that that is coming, and and so many local people too numerous to name needs I want the Minister to allay concerns about the franchise. to be applauded and supported. I hope she agrees that it is essential that the new franchise on the Tyne Valley line offers a timetable that Rory Stewart: I am very fortunate to share Gilsland gets passengers to where they want to be, at the times station with my hon. Friend; in fact, Gilsland stands on they want to travel, with improved carriages that run on the boundary between our two constituencies. Does he 403 Transport Infrastructure 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport Infrastructure 404 (Northumberland) (Northumberland) [Rory Stewart] 7.32 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport agree that, along with the bottom-line analysis that (Claire Perry): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Network Rail must undertake, some recognition needs for Hexham (Guy Opperman)—and he is a friend—on to be given to the extraordinary energy, imagination securing this vital debate. He is an assiduous campaigner and community spirit of the people in Gilsland, who on many issues in his constituency, specifically on this have come up with such an extraordinary proposal? transport agenda. The debate allows me to stand here Guy Opperman: I totally agree. I have invited the Minister and talk about something I am very proud of—the to come to Northumberland, and I hope she will confirm Government’s commitment to spreading the benefits of in her response that she will do so. We would take the the investment in rail and roads across the country. It Tyne Valley line and get off at Haltwhistle—sadly—to also gives many other colleagues equally committed to get in a car to drive to Gilsland station, so that she transport schemes in their constituencies an opportunity could see this wonderful project and what we propose: to discuss the importance of those. My only disappointment that where Hadrian’s wall and the Pennine way cross we is that we have no Member here whose first name is will alleviate pressure on the road and bus network, and William, which removes my opportunity for a Puffing create significant local jobs and address significant rural Billy joke, although it is of course lovely to welcome my poverty. A 1967 closure by Dr Beeching is surely capable hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson)—no of being reversed at relatively low cost, with the wider relation to George Stephenson but a marker of the economic benefits palpably clear to everybody.A feasibility importance of that name. study by the Tyne Valley line rail users group concluded I am proud to stand here as a representative of a that the revenue from passengers using the station would Government who recognise the crucial role that transport cover operating costs and that there would be a benefit infrastructure plays in facilitating growth right across to the community of over £500,000. This area has suffered the country.That is why we have been absolutely determined from poor transport connections for some considerable to reverse what could be described as an Administration’s time. period of neglect by securing significant levels of investment Time does not permit me to make the case that over in the road and rail networks. As a marker, by the end of the past year, as my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith the current capital spending period we will be a Government and The Border (Rory Stewart) will know, we have who will have electrified 850 miles of railways. Sadly, made tremendous improvements to the bus services that only seven miles were electrified under the previous were failing in the Gilsland, Greenhead and Low Row Administration, although of course other investments area, with a huge amount of work by all the persons were made. At the end of this capital period we will be involved. This is a highly rural area that needs the able to proudly say that spending on road and rail rebuild at Gilsland that we are proposing. infrastructure outside London is higher than it was I accept that ultimately direct funding and support under the previous Government, despite the investments will need to come from the two county councils and the in Crossrail, Thameslink and other things that are so two LEPs, which need to push this project into their important for the London economy. strategic economic plan for 2016-17. The LEPs need to We are very committed to making sure that this look to their local growth funds, which are clearly a investment is spread right across the country from potential source of the funds we need. We will also be north to south and in our major cities and market speaking to our individual rural growth networks to towns—and, crucially, in our rural seats such as those assess how they can help. I ask the Minister not only to that my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham and I are come and visit but to give the Department’s support, proud to represent. I am delighted that his appetite has expertise and guidance so that local people can see that been whetted by some of the conversations that have this important and much needed campaign is supported taken place. I am looking forward to having many and they can be helped through the laughably described discussions with him and other hon. Members over the GRIP— governance for railway investment projects— next few months. I confirm that I will, of course, visit process that determines all major railway rebuild my hon. Friend’s constituency to see some of those programmes. schemes for myself. It will form part of what will be a I am conscious of the time, so many of the points great rail journey—I hope it will take several days—in that I would have made about buses and transport the new year. connectivity will have to wait for another day, Mr Speaker, Let me turn to the issue of rail services, which my when you grant me yet another debate on transport hon. Friend raised eloquently.We are investing significantly infrastructure in the north. in the national rail network—in terms of electrification, This really does matter. This is a genuinely rural and new rolling stock and signalling and upgrading station semi-rural area that requires the support of public facilities—to meet ever-rising passenger demand. The transport, whether because of the difficulties with bus number of passenger journeys now is double what it services, the problems that children are having getting was at the point of privatisation. Up to 1.6 billion to school, or the simple fact that there is a lack of journeys are made every year and we have simply not infrastructure available. Moving forward, we are hoping invested enough to meet that demand and take the to see an Oyster card system working in the urban areas country forward. so that the seven local authorities come together to In order to meet record and growing levels of demand create an integrated transport system. in the north in particular, we are continuing to invest in I thank you for the time for this debate, Mr Speaker. the most significant rail modernisation programme for We look forward to welcoming the Minister soon. We generations. The northern hub programme—on which see ourselves at a pivotal point in terms of future £500,000 is being spent—and the electrification of routes planning, future funding, and so much more. in the north-west and across the north Pennines on the 405 Transport Infrastructure 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport Infrastructure 406 (Northumberland) (Northumberland) North TransPennine route will transform rail connectivity on rail fares this year in real terms. The retail prices in the north of England by increasing capacity, reducing index plus 0% calculation is important, and this is the journey times and enabling the introduction of far first time it has been done. Of course, Northern Rail in better train services. I will refer specifically to the Pacers particular is introducing various reduced advance purchase later. fares on a number of routes, offering substantial discounts Electrification of the trans-Pennine rail line between for passengers. The overall question of fares—what is Manchester and Leeds will enable us for the first time to the right balance of fares that provides value for money run an electrified service all the way from Liverpool to and allows us to invest in a crucial part of the network?— Newcastle via both Manchester and Leeds. That will is explicitly part of the franchise negotiations and really transform connectivity between crucial northern conversations. cities. I am sure that hon. Members will be pleased that the I will briefly mention HS2, of which colleagues will community rail designation for the Tyne Valley line is know I am a supporter and which is about not just under review. I want to make them aware that the speed and journey-time reductions, but freeing up capacity consultation ends on Friday, so if they have constituents on the existing rail network. The north-east in particular or councillors who feel that their views should be heard, will benefit, because HS2 will widen the opportunities I encourage them to send in that information. Community for millions of people by providing faster links to rail can be very successful in breathing new life into London and inter-regional connectivity, which can provide local and rural railways—no more so than in the north real competition for businesses in London and the of England. Among all that it enables us to do is to south-east. I am very proud of the specific investments provide local freedom for fare structures, and to invest in the north. in local services and stations, as my hon. Friend realises. I will now turn from the general concerns about the I would love to take a train to Gilsland station and north to the specific issues my hon. Friend raised relating cycle the whole length of Hadrian’s wall, so if we could to the existing service on the Tyne valley line. Hon. organise something like that—perhaps not in January—it Members present will know that the Government, in would obviously be an even stronger draw for plans to conjunction with Rail North, are working on a new reopen the station. As always, but specifically during franchise to replace the existing northern franchise. We the franchise period, we are looking for new ways to ran a very healthy consultation over the summer and it support community rail services and make them even has just concluded. It received about 17,000 responses, more effective in providing what local communities including specific ones on the route. Genuine questions want. were asked about all sorts of issues, such as what the My hon. Friend mentioned electrification. I am delighted service and connectivity should look like and which that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and trains will be needed on the routes. We are working Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), as someone who leads through all of those responses as input to defining the assiduously for the Government on the proposal in invitation to tender that will be issued later this year. looking at the north of England, has offered a meeting. We have announced the three companies that are As I have mentioned, we intend to electrify more than pre-qualified to bid for the franchise and have asked the 850 miles of railway, including the key trans-Pennine operators specifically to demonstrate how they will deal route between Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and York. with issues such as capacity and future demand and We are already seeing the benefits of the first electric improve customer service and passenger satisfaction service between Manchester and Scotland. We will continue across the network. We expect bidders to develop their to look at all options; indeed, the taskforce is free in its own plans for rolling stock, but we will be very clear remit to consider all non-electrified routes in the north. that we want bidders to submit options for replacing the My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham spoke Pacer trains, which, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, eloquently about various investments in his constituency, are a source of dissatisfaction for many rail users across and they are clearly of interest to other hon. Members, the north. Everything is up for conversation in these including those north of the border, as was pointed out franchises and we want to be extremely specific about by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon- that. We are also looking at options for extending the Tweed (Sir Alan Beith). The Government have already provision of wi-fi across the network. We take it for announced increased levels of funding to deliver granted off the trains, but we think it should be extended improvements to the strategic road network, again targeted to as many passengers as possible. specifically at supporting economic growth, and our I pay tribute to the Rail North partnership, which is commitment to deliver the step change was set out by working well in taking the franchise negotiations forward. the Chancellor in his spending review. The Treasury The more local participation in rail services across the Command Paper “Investing in Britain’s Future” stated north and other parts of the country, the better. A that the Government will invest more than £28 billion number of senior Rail North staff are now working in enhancements and maintenance of both national and with the Department for Transport franchise teams to local roads, including £10 billion for major national help us evaluate the bids and root them firmly in what road projects. local passenger demand wants those services to be. That My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham will be is crucial, because the franchises are key in transforming aware that the Highways Agency is conducting its route how rail contributes to communities and businesses strategy process. Among other things, it is looking at right across the north, leveraging our investment in the the question of dualling the A69. He raised that, and he train services. has discussed it with the Secretary of State for Transport. Turning quickly to the issue of rail fares, which I The case for the sensible and vigorous campaign for know has come up several times in my hon. Friend’s dualling has been made by many hon. Members. Although constituency, we have, of course, seen an overall freeze the first evidence review completed by the agency suggested 407 Transport Infrastructure 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Transport Infrastructure 408 (Northumberland) (Northumberland) [Claire Perry] campaigned, and others nearby are in Rothbury. We must keep investing in these important local roads. that network performance is consistent for peak period I want briefly to mention road safety on the A69. speeds, it does not feature in the top 10% of roads for Although we are very proud of the Government’s overall delay. However, the strategic analysis is still ongoing. As road safety record, we again have to be vigilant. We my hon. Friend rightly said, with capital allocations for must also recognise that rural roads have specific problems. the 2016 period coming up, now is the time to make I am pleased that I will launch a new Think! campaign representations. I assure all hon. Members that the focused on country roads later this year to address some Department’s doors are always open. of those issues. My hon. Friend raised the issue of safety on the A69, I again thank my hon. Friend for securing this debate. of which there has been a detailed review. Tragically, I hope that what I have said demonstrates the Government’s more lives have been lost on the route recently. The road very real commitment to expanding growth across the has been described as having a good safety record, but north of England. I look forward to visiting his constituency we have to be vigilant if we are to maintain that record. and I encourage him and his constituents to keep talking I welcome his and his constituents’ help in maintaining about transport infrastructure, as that is the way to such vigilance for this important route. deliver long-term economic growth for this great country. In relation to local roads, my hon. Friend will be Question put and agreed to. pleased to know that we have already invested money on improving some local pinch points. One is in his 7.44 pm constituency at Ovingham bridge, for which he has House adjourned. 79WH 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 80WH

simple procedures and treatments. These concerns led Westminster Hall me to move a ten-minute rule Bill earlier this year and I was delighted that so many parliamentary colleagues Wednesday 3 September 2014 supported that. The issue is not just for Dover and Deal; I have set [ALBERT OWEN in the Chair] out the local situation to provide context for the concerns of so many parliamentary colleagues. There are some Community Hospitals 400 local and community hospitals throughout the land Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting and there are similar stories to be told about many of be now adjourned.—(George Freeman.) them—stories of people battling to defend their hospitals and hospital services against the NHS leviathan and the 9.30 am forces of centralisation. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): It is a pleasure to There is a sense that the tide has begun to turn. After serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. I welcome all, a new hospital is being built at Dover, health chiefs the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation have pledged to secure the future for Deal hospital, and and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk there has been a move towards a fairer share of health (George Freeman), to the debate and congratulate him care for rural and semi-rural communities far from on his elevation in the reshuffle before the summer acute hospitals. We have come a long way. Today, I am recess. It is a pleasure to speak in such a well attended making the case for going further and asking what more debate, with so many parliamentary colleagues coming we can do to embrace community hospitals and bring to share my concerns about the future of our community them closer to the heart of the NHS and, in particular, hospitals. support the role that they play in providing recovery The purpose of this debate is to make the case for the beds and more locally-based services, particularly for Government’s putting the community back into community an ageing population. We need to put the community hospitals and for recognising that such hospitals should back into community hospitals. have a central role in coping with the issue of people We should note an important moment in the history living longer. Community hospitals are important providers of the NHS, marked by the comments of Simon Stevens, of recovery beds that speed rehabilitation and recovery, the new chief executive of NHS England, who recently which can also help older people in particular to continue made the case for patients to be treated more often in to live independently. their own communities, saying that the NHS is currently I was inspired to seek this debate because people in too focused on my community care deeply about the local community “a steady push towards centralisation” hospitals in Dover and Deal. Years of centralisation have taken their toll. My constituents want more locally- and that Britain should learn from countries such as based health services provided by their local hospitals. Sweden, the Netherlands and the United States, which have strengthened community care around small hospitals Dover was deeply concerned to see services axed at its to meet the needs of local communities. Buckland hospital; wards were closed one by one and a much-loved hospital was decimated over a decade. When I was elected in 2010, plans for a new hospital had been David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate going nowhere for getting on for a decade and the new the hon. Gentleman on obtaining this debate. In Northern hospital project was set to be axed altogether. Meanwhile, Ireland, of course, we do not have as many community in Deal, it was agreed in 2006 that out-patient services hospitals as there are on the mainland. Ours tend to should be axed and residents were fearful that the feed into a main hub and we have out-of-hours services hospital would be closed altogether. However, after more than community hospitals. However, Mr Stevens, much hard campaigning, the long-stalled new Dover whom the hon. Gentleman mentioned, also says that we hospital is being built. It will open in February or should consider community hospitals developing as March next year and will have out-patient facilities, day social enterprises. What is the hon. Gentleman’s view on surgery, diagnostics and a revamped urgent care centre. that? The number of journeys that will need to be taken to the big, far away hospitals will fall dramatically. It will Charlie Elphicke: The hon. Gentleman anticipates make a massive difference. the direction of my speech. I wholly support it; it is a In Deal, we campaigned hard to safeguard the future great idea. Mr Stevens also said: of the hospital. A massive survey and a packed public “A number of other countries have found it possible to run viable meeting ensured that NHS chiefs pledged not to close local hospitals serving smaller communities than sometimes we the hospital and they will now seek to expand its think are sustainable in the NHS” services. We now hope that out-patient services can be maintained for people who find it hard to travel: the and that elderly, the partially sighted and people with broken “Most of western Europe has hospitals which are able to serve bones. their local communities, without everything having to be centralised”. However, we have not achieved everything that we In a speech to the NHS Confederation annual conference want. People in Dover want recovery beds to be located in June 2014, he outlined his plans for reform of community at the new hospital. Residents of Deal would like greater health services, reiterating the problems of the ageing community and local general practitioner involvement population and the increasing number of long-term in the hospital and its services. Both communities would conditions, such as obesity and dementia, as well as like more locally-based services, to minimise the number more expansive and expensive treatments and the need of journeys to the large, far away acute hospitals for for more localised health services to tackle these problems. 81WH Community Hospitals3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 82WH

[Charlie Elphicke] acute hospital. Older patients are more likely to enjoy continued independent living, and a friendly home life Mr Stevens is right. Community hospitals have an environment is preferred by patients. important role to play and perform best in respect of I will cite a few studies and a bit of evidence in intermediate, step-down and step-up recovery beds, support of what I am saying. There was a study particularly for people recovering from an operation in Bradford in 2005, a study in the midlands and the who need round-the-clock care, and in respect of helping north of England in 2007, research from 2009 into older people get better and continue to live independently, patient-reported experiences and research into intermediate keeping them out of end-of-life or long-term nursing care in Norway in 2007, so there is a significant evidence home care. base. In addition, the NHS Confederation recently used Department of Health evidence to conclude that closer- Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I, too, congratulate to-home care produced a fall of 24% in elective admissions, my hon. Friend on this excellent debate. Does it not a 14% reduction in bed days, a 21% drop in emergency surprise him that the acute hospitals are not clamouring admissions, a 45% reduction in mortality and a 15% fall to keep the community hospitals, which could free up in visits to accident and emergency. Those are encouraging their beds, allowing patients to go home to their local figures. Community hospitals are more cost-effective, communities, where they are going to get better, not according to a 2006 research paper published in the worse? That, of course, would cost the Government less British Medical Journal, so there is strong evidence to in the long term. back up what I have set out. The case is made in certain quarters that it is somehow Charlie Elphicke: I agree. I congratulate my hon. easier and possibly cheaper to have intermediate beds in Friend on his hard campaigning in his constituency to nursing homes. Nursing homes play an important role secure the future of his own community hospitals. I in long-term care and end-of-life care, but community understand that the campaign has met with great success, hospitals are more suitable for recovery, rehabilitation showing how fortunate his constituents are to have such and continued independent living. It is in their interest a diligent, effective Member of Parliament. He is right; to get people out, but the nature of nursing homes is community care beds are more cost-effective and reduce that people are not expected to leave very quickly. With the pressure of bed blocking on acute hospitals, meaning an ageing population, community hospitals are particularly that acute hospitals can do more of what they are best well suited to keeping older people healthier and more at and that community hospitals can do more of what well. The clinical commissioning group covering Dover they, in turn, are best at. and Deal, ably led by the local GP, Darren Cocker, is Community hospitals are good at creating a friendly, building on that in creating an integrated care organisation. personal and home-like environment, well suited to It sees the local hospitals in Dover and Deal as essential older people, particularly those who suffer from dementia to the success of its vision. yet live independently; such people have better health Moving on, let us look at how we can put the community outcomes and a lower rate of readmission following more into community hospitals. Many community hospitals rehabilitation and recovery. Community hospitals can were established and funded, as colleagues will know, be localised hubs for less complex health care and can through public subscription by locally based community have minor injury units, diagnostic provision, clinics for trusts before the NHS came into existence. The trusts various specialities and even out-patient services and managed effectively and the move to nationalisation day surgery, and they are more cost-effective, when and centralisation saw those hospitals taken from compared with acute hospitals, in respect of post-acute communities and taken over by the NHS in Whitehall. recovery. It is hard to see why we ever went down the Many communities want to be given the chance to have route of centralisation, because it cost us more money a greater say over what happens to their local hospitals. and gave us less effective care. The move to putting the Allowing local communities to own, lease or manage community hospital back at the heart of things will be their hospitals would be a clear way to accommodate more cost-effective and will give better care and better the concerns many have and enable people to have the health outcomes. greater say they would like to have. I welcome Ministers’ comments in answers to oral Reforging the strong link that GPs had with their and written questions, as well as the comments of local hospitals is important as well. My local GPs are Mr Stevens. Ministers have recognised that community up for that, and I want to encourage and support them hospitals are important in improving patients’ discharge in that move. Communities should also have greater from acute hospitals and in increasing access to treatment influence over the provision of health care in their in the community. I welcome their acceptance that areas; that would allow them to give greater priority to community hospitals are good bases for respite, palliative the needs of their specific community. I hope that and intermediate care, and step-up and step-down care close Ministers will take the opportunity to promote community to home. Community hospitals are also strong resources ownership or management of community hospitals. for people in rural areas, who have to travel long distances In conclusion, much progress has been made on to reach general hospitals. Much of what I am saying is community hospitals, but more can be done. They in line with the direction of travel of Ministers. I could be embraced and put more closely at the heart of welcome that. Government health care policy, and I look forward to An important aspect of community hospitals is as hearing from the Minister what steps he will take in four providers of recovery beds. Study after study has shown key areas. First, what steps will he take to enable that community hospital recovery beds are effective at communities to have a greater say in running their local getting people well, meaning they are less likely to be community hospitals: to own, to lease, or to manage? readmitted to hospital than if they recovered in an How can we have stronger links among GPs, GP-led 83WH Community Hospitals3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 84WH clinical commissioning groups and community hospitals, variety of problems, but community hospitals play an as used to happen many years ago and could happen important role in easing their work. Often, people have again? injuries that need to be seen to that are not emergencies, What about the potential for community hospitals to and sometimes people have to look at how best to be hubs for the integration of social care and the policy categorise those issues and which hospital to attend. support that might be given for that? Finally, we need to Some people could see their GP at their local community accept that it is not always best just to drop off people hospital and use the out-of-hours service, rather than at home after acute hospital treatment and that intermediate attending A and E departments. That is not meant as a recovery beds are often a key element in the path to criticism; I am always conscious that people respond in recovery, distinct from nursing homes, which are better the way they see best, but sometimes we need to take a suited to longer-term and end-of-life care. longer look at how things work. Community hospitals can play a greater role. Albert Owen (in the Chair): Before I call Mr Jim One thing that we need to do is raise awareness of Shannon, I say to Members that I will call the Front community hospitals through this debate and look at Benchers at 10.40 am. Seven Members have indicated in how best the community and our constituents can writing that they want to speak in this debate, and a respond. The role of community hospitals is to provide couple of others have also indicated that they might accessible health care and ancillary services to meet the wish to speak. As would be expected, those who have needs of defined local populations, particularly in areas written in will get priority. The maths is easy: we have remote from district general hospitals. As an extension 55 minutes and 10 Members wishing to speak. of primary care, they enable GPs and the primary health care teams to support patients within their own 9.45 am communities. Rehabilitation is a major role of community Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is always a pleasure hospitals, and many offer a wide range of health promotion, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. The Minister diagnostic, emergency, acute and convalescent services, and I have spent a bit of time together in Westminster as well as out-of-hours treatment. Hall in the past couple of days, and it is nice to see him Community hospitals provide an undervalued resource, in his place. I wish him well. I congratulate the hon. and those wishing to close such hospitals or downgrade Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) on securing this them to no longer being community hospitals have debate, which gives us all an opportunity to participate, often presented community support as irrational, but it and we thank him for that. is not irrational in my area. The community hospital in I have a deep interest in community hospitals and I my constituency looks after the Ards peninsula. Travel therefore look forward to making a contribution. As from Portaferry, Portavogie or Kircubbin to the Ards the Democratic Unionist party spokesperson for health, hospital takes 15 to 20 minutes, but travel to the Ulster the issue is of some interest to me. It is not often that we hospital would take twice as long, because of the traffic. are the second largest party in the Chamber. [Laughter.] The community hospital has a significant and important With my colleague and me, we have two Members, role to play, and we must look outside this place, to see which makes us the second largest party. It is a pleasure what the issues are for my constituents. In the community to speak on this issue. The local hospital in my constituency hospital, they feel like they are treated as people, rather of Strangford is in Newtownards. It is a community than numbers. That is not a criticism, but it is a reality. hospital, like Bangor and Downe, which are in neighbouring Figures for Northern Ireland show that the waiting constituencies, and all those hospitals feed into the times at A and E are extremely good with just 294 out of major hub of our hospitals, which is the Ulster hospital. 62,193 people waiting longer than 12 hours to be treated I put on record, because I have to, the excellent staff we or discharged. That figure of 294 must also be addressed, have at those hospitals. We are very much indebted to but the numbers show the importance of the role that their work, the commitment they give beyond their community hospitals play in treating non-emergency hours and the quality of their experience. injuries, as well as the large-scale rehabilitation programmes Community hospitals have a big role to play in our that they offer. Community hospitals provide more society. Without them, the NHS health system would be convenient services, are less costly for the local population under even greater pressure. We have one of the best, if to access and are tailored to the local community’s not the best health system in the world, but being the needs. The hon. Member for Dover referred in his best comes with pressures. Due to the nature of our contribution to the significant and important role that health system, which entitles all UK residents to health community hospitals play in that respect. Furthermore, care, delays and backlogs can, unfortunately, arise community hospitals provide a range of safe and sometimes. In January this year, the Royal Victoria appropriate services, often with considerable cost benefit hospital in Belfast was forced to declare a major incident to the NHS—minor injuries units being a prime example. due to the large number of patients visiting accident Doctors can be summoned very rapidly to community and emergency. Health is a devolved matter, and although hospitals, virtually all of which operate without resident our Health Minister at home, Edwin Poots, dealt with medical staff in a satisfactory way. They have proved the issue extremely well, I am under no illusion that the that they can do the job to a certain level, which is Belfast hospital was alone in declaring itself under impressive and eliminates the argument that community extreme pressure. The nature of the NHS means that hospitals do not provide enough of a service, forcing that happens sometimes, but community hospitals can people to district general hospitals when injured or ill come in to address that. through the night. It is a fact of life that such things I am always thoroughly impressed by the work of happen, but that does not downgrade the importance of staff in A and E departments, because they are often the community hospital. It would be good, however, to run off their feet, with many people coming in with a see all community hospitals offering night-time services. 85WH Community Hospitals3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 86WH

[Jim Shannon] In Andover, as in other towns, the hospital has always had a strong claim on people’s loyalties, and we have to In community hospitals, the patient is under the care of take note of that. Nowadays, however, one cannot make their own GP, who will continue to look after them on the case for investment on emotion alone; there has to discharge. The community nursing teams are also able be a hard-nosed business case to back it up. My hon. to retain closer links with the patient at community Friend drew on some research that underlines the need hospitals, which is vitally important for rehabilitation to invest in community hospitals. The reality is that and is why community hospitals are so successful when bigger is better for some procedures, but smaller is it comes to patient recuperation better for others, and the position is not static as medical In conclusion—I am conscious that several other technology develops. A modern health service needs to Members want to speak—the benefits of having the make intelligent decisions about its assets to get the best same doctors and nurses, who know a patient’s case and value out of them. can get to know the patient, cannot be underestimated. After careful analysis of the best way forward by the That is why this debate is so important. I encourage the new trust, we have seen service development in Andover Minister to raise awareness of community hospitals’ and investment in the fabric, which has capitalised on work and to encourage people with minor injuries to the skills and commitment of the existing staff, whose use their local community hospital instead of A and E energy and professionalism I pay tribute to, and has departments at district general hospitals. I congratulate generated additional investment through, for example, the hon. Member for Dover on bringing forward this an active league of friends. It has also helped to restore debate. I look forward to the Minister’s response and to confidence in the NHS decision-making process as local hearing from the third party in the room today when people see the outcomes of the new method of running the shadow Minister makes his comments. the NHS. For example, we now have a mobile chemotherapy unit that visits Andover weekly, avoiding a 50-mile round trip to Basingstoke or 30-mile round trip to 9.52 am Winchester, which was done in partnership with Hope for Tomorrow. A new minor injuries unit opened in Sir George Young (North West Hampshire) (Con): 2010 and is run by highly skilled nurse practitioners May I begin by saying that it is a pleasure to serve under with back-up support from the consultants in emergency your chairmanship, Mr Owen, and by joining my hon. medicine at the DGHs. We have a modern outpatients Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) in his department to replace a building that dates from the era warm welcome to our hon. Friend on the Front Bench, of “Carry on Nurse”. Instead of local folk having to who will make his maiden ministerial speech in Westminster travel to a DGH to see a consultant, consultants from Hall? I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member nearly all the specialties now come to Andover. We have for Dover on his choice of subject. As we approach a a mobile MRI scanner, and operations under local general election, it is worth remembering that a Member anaesthetic are now also taking place in Andover. The of Parliament actually lost his seat in 2001 because of a Hampshire hospitals birthing unit has just opened and perceived lack of commitment to a community hospital, is run by local midwives and provides ante- and post-natal but my hon. Friend’s powerful speech will have consolidated care. More and more local families are choosing a his position in Dover and Deal on health-related matters. midwife-supported birth, and they can either have the Listening to his speech and reading some of the comments baby at home or in the birthing unit. made about the NHS, one can understand the concern The hospital campus is large and has always been used that district general hospitals and specialist services intelligently. The Countess of Brecknock hospice, run might sap the life blood out of community hospitals, independently by a charitable trust, is next to the hospital. some of which are fighting to hang on to what they have More consultants in palliative medicine are now based or even face closure. I want to speak briefly in the there and it is developing a hospice-at-home service. debate to show that, so far as North-West Hampshire is Also next to the hospital is a nursing home, funded and concerned, the opposite is now happening. run by the county council on land provided by the NHS. I have no district general hospitals in my constituency— At this point, the cynic might at this point ask what is Basingstoke and Winchester are the nearest DGHs and so remarkable about a large building calling itself a are in next-door constituencies—but I do have the hospital providing services for people who are ill, but Andover War Memorial hospital in my largest town that is to miss the point. The NHS must adapt and and what has happened there over the past few years change if it is to continue to provide a quality service, shows what can be done. In 2012, a new trust was which means specialisation where necessary and localisation formed, amalgamating Basingstoke, Winchester and where it is not and investment in both DGHs and Andover hospitals and there were fears that Andover, as community hospitals the smallest, would be squeezed as services were centralised. I have two requests for the Minister—one general In fact, the opposite has happened, and I commend and one specific. First, I endorse the plea made by my what Mary Edwards, the chief executive of the combined hon. Friend the Member for Dover for an assurance trust and Elizabeth Padmore, the chair, have done to that the Government support the continued provision bring services to Andover and so reduce the need for of more services locally, as is happening in North-West people who live in and around the town to drive to the Hampshire, and will encourage the trust to continue nearest DGH—and most people have to drive as access with its strategy of providing more services in the town, by public transport is difficult. The process has actually such as transferring patients who have had critical helped the DGHs by reducing pressure on some of their treatment elsewhere for rehabilitation in the hospital. services, not least on car parking, and has made it easier We are pleased with what we have, but our appetite has to recruit and retain NHS staff, as not everyone in been whetted and we want more. I was tempted to say, Andover wants to work in Basingstoke or Winchester. “Dover Andover again,” but I will not. 87WH Community Hospitals3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 88WH

Secondly, and more specifically—I do not expect an value of our community hospitals. The reforms that we answer this morning—the ugliest building in Andover is introduced to localise decision making, and to put the Andover health centre, which houses a GP practice clinicians in charge rather than managers, have made a on the hospital campus owned by the trust. Not only is big difference. We should continue in that direction of it ugly, it is past its sell-by date as a place where GPs can travel. practise. Indeed, the trust wants to demolish it next The key word is “signposting”, to ensure that the year. The site could be sold for housing, for which there patient gets to the place where he or she should be, is great need, and could generate a capital receipt for rather than automatically assume that a large, city-based reinvestment in health services. The dialogue between hospital is the place to go. We need to make it clearer the various agencies of the NHS to relocate the practice, that community hospitals are there and should be used which is the largest in Andover with some 15,000 patients, as often as possible. It is a matter of signposting. Unless has gone on for at least four years with no end in sight. we make that clearer, from time to time we will find It started off with the primary care trust, but now ourselves wondering why there are queues in big trust involves NHS England, the clinical commissioning group hospitals and, possibly, empty beds in community hospitals. and the trust. The practice wants to be relocated near We need to do signposting. the hospital, where land is available, and there are advantages in having GPs next door. We need to resolve Richard Drax: I am listening attentively to my hon. the matter before the Care Quality Commission looks Friend’s excellent speech. Dare I say, reorganisation in too hard at the current building. In conclusion, I ask my the NHS is not something that I particularly want to hon. Friend the Minister to indicate that he will take a address, but is it not common sense for trusts to look personal interest in the matter and use his influence to again at how best to use what they have, rather than to bring the dialogue to a satisfactory conclusion. play with what they have inherited? Community hospitals should be incorporated with the district or acute hospitals 9.59 am to ensure that they all work together in their relative areas to look after the people living in those areas. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen, and to Neil Carmichael: I thank my hon. Friend for that speak in a debate instigated by my hon. Friend the helpful intervention. It is absolutely right that we need a Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), because it is holistic approach to the use of hospitals. Such an approach such an important subject, in particular in my constituency. would be better informed and implemented if more It is also a great pleasure to be present for the first information were available. That is the essence of my performance of the new Minister—I congratulate him point, which will be helped precisely by what he was on his appointment. talking about, which is having more and better relationships Approximately 10 years ago, our hospital in Stroud between the different types of hospital. was under threat, in essence because the previous Labour May I say a few words about the investment that the Government were obsessed with “big is better”, rather coalition Government have managed to provide for our than small and local. The whole town and the wider hospitals? I have already said that the Vale community community rallied together to ensure that their love of hospital was built during the early years of my time their hospital was understood and the fundamental as Member of Parliament. We have also seen huge case for keeping it open was made. Today, it is still improvement in the Stroud maternity unit, with significant open—quite right too. investment in access, the entrance area and a complete At the same time, the Stroud maternity unit was revamp of corridors and facilities. As a result, it is a under threat for much the same reasons. It also received very attractive place for expectant mothers to go. The a huge amount of support locally. It, too, is still open— questions are, do we have enough expectant mothers, again, quite right too. If I do nothing else, it would be to and do we have enough of them who want to go that pledge my total support for those two institutions, as particular unit? I am not going to add to the baby count well as the Vale community hospital in Dursley, because myself, as I have three children already, but those are it really matters to people that such hospitals—our questions we need to address. community hospitals—are protected and allowed to Stroud general hospital can now boast improved thrive. That is a key priority for me in my constituency. diagnostics and excellent out-patient services. That is When I was first elected, it was a great pleasure to dig good for those situations, which we often see, that the first hole for the building of the Vale community involve someone needing to go into a hospital, but not hospital. It is now thriving, with 20 beds, and providing necessarily to stay overnight. The recently opened out- an increasing number of valuable services to my patient facility is therefore a good example of valuable constituents. and useful investment. That is the overall package that we have in the Stroud I want to pay tribute to the leagues of friends in valleys and vale; it is one that we want to build on, to Stroud hospital and in Vale community hospital. In protect and to hand over to our successors, children and particular, I want to single out one individual, David grandchildren in future. It is the core of our health care. Miller, who has contributed a massive amount to our It is great that the reforms that we introduced early hospital over many years. He should be recognised as a on in the Parliament have enabled general practitioners powerful force for augmenting investment in our hospitals to have more say in community health provision. It is through very good use of locally raised funds. absolutely right that CCGs are able to direct patients In essence, I am utterly and absolutely determined to more effectively and more easily to local community ensure that our hospitals are supported properly— hospitals. That is certainly happening in my patch, financially, locally and in every other way. Secondly, the because our local doctors know and understand the key thing is to signpost the patient to the right place and 89WH Community Hospitals3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 90WH

[Neil Carmichael] of the larger hospitals in the region, such as Macclesfield district general hospital, so people can recover in a to recognise the powerful role of community hospitals more homely and relaxed environment that is closer to in promoting public health, dealing with care after home. That is very much appreciated, particularly by major operations and enabling outpatient activity to those who have more acute and severe needs. Such a work, all in conjunction with general practitioners across facility is also a boon for visiting families and provides a my patch. That is the message that the Government halfway step between hospital and home. As I have said, must hear; that is the theme that the Government must the hospital is particularly valued by older constituents. pursue; and it is certainly what I will do in the Stroud I want to reassure my constituents that I know of no valleys and vale. current plans to reduce or close the services at Congleton War Memorial hospital. Indeed, my purpose in speaking 10.7 am today is to request that consideration be given to extending Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I am pleased to have them. I assure hon. Members that my constituents the opportunity to speak in this important debate. I would rise up in revolt should there ever be a hint of congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dover closure or reduction in services at the hospital—and it (Charlie Elphicke) on securing it, and I entirely concur would not be the first time. In 1962, after a suggestion with the major premise of his speech, as well as that of that the hospital be closed, there was a mass meeting at many of my colleagues’ speeches, that community hospitals the town hall, with an overflow of some 2,000 residents. should be further developed to promote additional The meeting was presided over by the mayor and it was services. unanimously resolved to oppose every means by which closure could be attained. A petition was organised and One such excellent community hospital is the Congleton got 24,000 signatures. The plans were well and truly War Memorial hospital in my constituency. Given the dropped and the hospital has flourished ever since. high standards it has provided for its local patients, it is well placed to extend its services. The recent patient-led Members of my staff extol the importance of the assessment of the care environment rated Congleton hospital for the people of Congleton and call it an War Memorial highly, with no less than 93%. Founded “invaluable asset”. They say that waiting times are in 1924 by public subscription, it was a memorial to all short, even for minor injuries—half an hour, if someone those who had given their lives in the first world war. is unlucky, which is far better than at an A and E at The hospital has served the community of Congleton many larger hospitals. The service is treasured by the ever since, and it is fitting that I should be able to stand people of Congleton, who use it frequently and see its up and praise that excellent local hospital in the centenary special services as something that should be available as year of the start of that war. a matter of course. Congleton residents rely on it for its family-friendly outlook. As I have said, its minor injuries I will give a little background. Built in 1924, the unit helps to avoid long waits at A and E and serves the hospital was paid for by local people and opened by the local community; it also potentially reduces waiting King as a memorial to those 243 men from the town times at larger hospitals and takes a load off them by who gave their lives in the first world war. When the treating less acute injuries. King opened the hospital, he said: “The hospital will always be a reminder to generations to come The value of Congleton War Memorial hospital cannot of the prudent and generous instincts of the townspeople of be overstated. It is beloved by local people and provides Congleton”. a level of personal service that I myself have witnessed Indeed, it has been, and still is. when I have had the pleasure of meeting and spending time with the staff there, in fresh and attractive facilities Until the inauguration of the health service in 1948, that are maintained to a very high standard. the hospital was maintained locally, first by an industrial hospital fund, to which every worker in the borough I hope the Minister will join me in extolling the contributed one penny a week, deducted from their pay virtues of important facilities such as those at Congleton packets. That is why the hospital remains so close to War Memorial hospital, and perhaps even visit for many people’s hearts, in particular the many elderly himself one day to see, in Congleton, what a model people in my constituency. Additionally, it was supported community hospital looks like. It is ideally placed for by the proceeds of an annual hospital carnival, private the extension of the excellent facilities that it provides. subscriptions and bequests, the proceeds of special efforts, and donations from local fundraising, which 10.13 am continues today. Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): It is a pleasure Its current services range from a minor injuries unit to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. I too to physiotherapy and phlebotomy. It offers a personal congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dover and local service that a larger city or general hospital (Charlie Elphicke) on obtaining this debate, and add simply cannot match. It is a high-class facility on the my congratulations to the Minister on his appointment. doorstep of the people of Congleton, meaning that Every speaker so far has talked about the value of those who are less mobile due to age, infirmity or lack community hospitals. I do not want to repeat what has of transport can easily access health care facilities without been said, but I utterly endorse the tributes that have needing to ride in a bus or taxi to the nearest larger been paid to the dedicated staff who work in those hospital, which is in neighbouring Macclesfield. hospitals, the intimate care that they are able to provide Although a community hospital, it has a host of to patients—sometimes lacking in very large, more general facilities and services for out-patients and in-patients. It hospitals—the proximity they have to communities and provides a wide range of local health care for residents the fact that patients can be visited by relatives and and has a specialist intermediate care unit. It gives friends much more easily. All those factors are real respite care for people who no longer need the facilities strengths that contribute to faster recovery times. 91WH Community Hospitals3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 92WH

I am afraid that, like every Member, I will talk about ownership and be leased to the NHS or be passed to the my own experience of my local community hospital in district council—and it has to go through the planning Maldon, St Peter’s community hospital, which is greatly process. At the moment, we are also wading through the loved. Like many, it offers out-patient treatments, has treacle of NHS bureaucracy: dealing with the NHS rehabilitation beds and offers therapies. It also has a Property Service, with the CCG, with the Mid Essex maternity unit. In my early days as a Member of Parliament hospital trust and with Provide, which used to be called I marched down Whitehall with the local protest group Central Essex Community Services. But everybody who in defence of that unit when it was suggested that it looks at the scheme can see the potential to provide, at might close. I am pleased to say that it did not and is zero cost, the new hospital that my constituents so still there; although I cannot personally say that I have desperately need. contributed to its work, my hon. Friend the Member for Although the Minister cannot get involved in the Witham (Priti Patel), who I am sure would be here had detail of the scheme, I hope that he can at least express she not become a Minister, had her first child in the general support for that kind of imaginative thinking, Maldon hospital maternity unit. which will ensure that we have a new community hospital Like many community hospitals, however, it is an for the future. I also invite him to think about that old building. It was built in 1874 as a workhouse for model, which could well be applicable in many other 450 inmates. Although it has had various refurbishments areas. over the years, it is not really fit for purpose. It is in poor condition, with leaks in the roof, and there is a possibility Several hon. Members rose— that it could be declared unsafe. Everybody realises that services cannot continue there for much longer. Albert Owen (in the Chair): Order. Because of Members’ For almost all the time that I have been in Parliament, self-discipline, we have some 10 minutes remaining, and therefore, we have been discussing how best to replace two doctors to finish the Back-Bench contributions. the hospital—whether to rebuild on the existing site or to build a brand new community hospital. Various options have been put forward. At one point we thought 10.18 am we had an agreement, but then it was discovered that Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): It is a pleasure to nobody could quite work out who owned the land on serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. which the new hospital was to be built, so that agreement I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for fell through. Dover (Charlie Elphicke). I cannot remember a more We now face a serious problem: as the Minister may encouraging debate in this House about community know, mid-Essex has one of the most severe financial hospitals. The success stories we have heard—not just problems of any area in the country. It is largely an from Dover, but the extraordinary success in Andover historical problem that has come about through the outlined by my right hon. Friend the Member for North formula for funding allocation and has been compounded West Hampshire (Sir George Young), and those in Vale, by a private finance initiative scheme that is draining Congleton, Maldon and other places—show what money out of the local health budget at our main community hospitals can achieve. general hospital in Broomfield. We have to look at more I was encouraged by what Simon Stevens had to say. imaginative solutions: it is clear that it is unlikely that He talked about how we should learn from other countries the local health service will be able to afford the capital in providing care closer to home, but we do not need to cost of a new hospital and we have had our fingers go to other countries. The Health Committee has visited burnt by PFI once before. Scandinavia, and in Denmark and Sweden I was shown We are looking for a new solution, and one has slides from Brixham community hospital. There we go: appeared; I will describe it briefly and invite the Minister we actually have wonderful examples in this country. I to endorse at least the principle behind it. The Maldon pay tribute to the four community hospitals in my district, like many, has a severe housing need—we need constituency: Brixham community hospital, Totnes a lot of new houses. The district council is preparing a community hospital, South Hams hospital in Kingsbridge, development plan, which is now before the planning and finally Dartmouth hospital. They are wonderful inspectorate. The development of new housing offers services. opportunities and a scheme has been suggested for a housing development that will bring with it a new I do not want to reiterate the excellent points that hospital for the NHS, built by the developers at zero have been made by my hon. Friend the Member for capital cost. Indeed, the scheme offers an even greater Dover, but community hospitals do not exist in isolation. potential benefit, as not only will a new hospital probably The debate should consider not just community hospitals, be cheaper to run than the very old existing hospital, but all the volunteers and services that surround them meaning that the revenue costs may be reduced, but it and enable them to fulfil their role. I talk not just about will free up the site of the existing hospital, which will the wonderful leagues of friends, which work so hard be available to the NHS for potential sale for development for our communities and in community hospitals, but and could therefore raise some money. It is potentially a about the wider networks that help community hospitals win-win situation: Maldon will get a brand new hospital to prevent hospital admissions, to facilitate early discharge and the houses that, although they are controversial, and to prevent readmission. I will focus on why that is there is no doubt we need, and the NHS will have so important. additional resources and a hospital that is more up to Simon Stevens has said that the greatest challenge date and cheaper to run. facing the NHS is the rising elderly population and how Obviously the scheme still needs a lot of work. There we care for them. It is good news that we are living are questions over who will own the new hospital longer. That is sometimes presented as if it is gloomy building—whether it ought to remain in the developer’s news when it is great news. However, with that comes an 93WH Community Hospitals3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 94WH

[Dr Sarah Wollaston] The detailed consultation will be given to the health and well-being scrutiny panel only the day before. That is increased number of people living with long-term not adequate time to scrutinise the plans. Will the conditions. From our recent Health Committee inquiry, Minister ensure that a clear message comes down that, we know that long-term conditions now account for if we want to have local democratic accountability, 70% of our entire NHS and social care spending. The people must be given adequate time to scrutinise proposals? number of people aged over 85 will double in the next We must try to avoid terms such as “the direction of 20 years. Again, I stress that that is a good thing, but it travel” in consultations with local communities. People needs some forward planning. do not know what that means. They want to be clear on I ask the Minister how we will ensure that the resources what the proposals are and to be given an opportunity from the better care fund support our community hospitals to feed back. and the wider webs around them. Last month, Simon Finally, on community ownership, putting the Stevens heard an important message when he visited “community”back into community hospitals is important. Dartmouth hospital and met with representatives from We need flexibility so that communities that want to staff, community volunteers and patients. The message take that on can take over from NHS PropCo. That was how frustrating the complications of tendering issue, which I would like the Minister to comment on, rounds can be for these volunteer groups. Sometimes was raised in a previous debate. I also have a word of those groups spend their time trapped in endless cycles caution on social enterprise. I fully support social enterprises competing for small pots of money. Those funds tend to but, in some rural communities, a change from NHS go to new projects and often do not provide the ongoing terms and conditions of service can place community funding that well-established, excellent community services hospitals under threat if NHS staff do not wish to work provide. Will the Minister look at the mechanisms that there. If people have the choice to work at a hospital sometimes lead to national organisations receiving funding where they will have NHS terms and conditions of because they can put forward flashier bids, at the expense service or at a hospital where they will not, I can tell the of excellent local services? Those national bodies might Minister where they will choose to work. That can pose have no local-facing presence. a threat. No one can campaign to keep open a hospital We need to look at how we can ensure that the with no nurses. Can the Minister touch on that? If we arrangements get money to the local services and the are going to shift to a social enterprise, we have to be right people, and at how to make the processes simpler mindful of the impact on future recruitment. and less bureaucratic. There is nothing that drives out I pay tribute to all the community hospitals in my volunteers quicker than being trapped in endless contracting constituency, their staff and volunteers. They are valued rounds, rather than doing what they really want to do: beyond belief by their local communities. I wish them provide services to people. I hope the Minister will look well for the future. at what is happening on the ground in local communities and try to sweep away some of that bureaucracy. That will help our community hospitals to deliver better 10.27 am services. Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): I add my As my right hon. Friend the Member for North West congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Hampshire said, we need to demonstrate value for Dover (Charlie Elphicke). Having visited his constituency, money, not just excellent care. I have worked in community I know how important community hospitals are for the hospitals and I know, from patients and colleagues, how well-being of his constituents. His commitment is greatly important they are to local communities. We know that, appreciated. I also warmly welcome the Minister to his but we also have to be able to demonstrate that they are place. It is wonderful to have a Minister in a Department financially viable. That viability often comes from adjusting who has a genuine passion for his subject, and a level of the way financial drivers in the NHS work. If the expertise that will be hugely welcomed—no doubt that Minister wants to help community hospitals, my message will be a great threat to the civil service. to him is to look at what is happening on the ground and make those adjustments happen. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), I have served on both sides—as a I have concerns about the way consultations about Member of Parliament with a local community hospital, changes to services take place. We need honesty about and as a doctor working in community hospitals. Clevedon changes to community hubs. If that means losing beds hospital has been at the heart of our community in in community hospitals, we need to be clear about that North Somerset for many years. Like many of those with communities. Where other arrangements are going who have spoken, we have a league of friends, which to be put in place, such as using nursing home beds over many years has performed heroically raising rather than community hospital beds, we need to be community funding to support the hospital. Despite clear that there is an evidence base that that provides that, our hospital is still under threat. We had a perfectly the services people want. We sometimes lose the heart sound plan for a replacement, which we approved and of our community hospitals if we lose their beds. then dropped. It was the subject of an Adjournment Community hospitals work better if we can retain those debate in the House. I will not repeat what I said then. step-down, step-up intermediate care beds. That is crucial Our CCG is under pressure from legacy funding issues, for communities. If there are to be changes, we need to and from a funding formula that does not properly have honesty during consultations. reflect issues of rurality or take into account our Adequate notice also has to be given. This morning I demographic patterns. The Department needs to look was very concerned to see in an e-mail that Northern, at that but, none the less, we have very good services in Eastern and Western Devon clinical commissioning our community hospital. We have recently improved group proposes to close some community hospital beds. and replaced ultrasound facilities, we have increased 95WH Community Hospitals3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 96WH facilities for ambulatory care and we retained our in-patient (Charlie Elphicke) on the eloquent case that he made in beds. I agree with my hon. Friend that that is one of the opening the debate, and I warmly welcome the Minister, most crucial issues. for whom I have a great deal of respect. He will be a In-patient beds in community hospitals are good for huge asset to the Government. several reasons. They are good for patients. As my hon. Now that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) has been deserted by the hon. Member for Upper Bann said, one of the most important things is that families (David Simpson), we are on an equal footing. I assure are close by. With increased centralisation of acute him that he can aspire to be the second party, because I hospitals in cities and away from many communities, hope very much that in eight months’ time my party will community hospital beds are valued for enabling people be back in its rightful place as the main one in the to get close. They can make frequent visits to their House. However, I am sure that that view will not relatives, who often are elderly or disabled. We cannot garner full support in the Chamber today. put a price on that social element. Community beds As many Members have testified, community hospitals also allow preparation time for patients with complex play an important role in the communities they serve. support needs. All too often, patients leave an acute They provide rehabilitation and follow-up care, and hospital with nursing or social care needs, and there is they can help to move care, diagnostics and minor not sufficient preparation time before their discharge. injury and outpatient services, among others, from acute As my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes said, community hospitals back to the community. They provide planned hospital beds used on a step-down basis allow proper and unplanned acute care and diagnostic services for preparation time, so that that patient gets proper support. patients closer to home, and contribute to the local In addition, I believe that community hospital beds community by providing employment opportunities and are good health economics. There is too big a gap support for community-based groups. It is fairly clear between our increasingly specialised acute services in that people prefer the more common medical treatments, hospitals and patients’ homes. Because acute beds are whether palliative care, minor injury services or maternity expensive, there is often pressure on hospital staff to care, to be brought nearer to their homes. Those are discharge patients early. We have all come across far too exactly the services that community hospitals can help many constituency cases in which patients have been to deliver, as we have heard in the debate. discharged inappropriately early from an acute hospital. Community hospitals usually have good relationships The trouble with that in terms of health economics is with their local communities, and many of the speeches that it leads to rebound admissions. Patients are sent this morning attest to that. They are often supported by home too early and it is not possible to prepare appropriate local fundraising and, indeed, many were opened prior care, or they cannot recover sufficiently, and they end to the creation of the NHS, by public subscription, as up back in an acute hospital, blocking another acute the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) outlined. bed. The system is less efficient than it would be if We have heard from a number of right hon. and hon. patient care were put at the centre. Members today about the great work being done by The value of respite care beds has not been raised in friends groups. The right hon. Member for North West the debate. Society depends hugely on carers, who are Hampshire (Sir George Young) and the hon. Members often the unsung heroes of the health care system. for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) and for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) Respite care beds can be invaluable in giving carers a mentioned those in their areas. I pay tribute to those break, so that they can be strong enough to give the care groups and to the staff and volunteers who work to they want to give. We have lost far too many respite care make things happen in those hospitals. Staff in community beds. In my constituency, we lost the planned Portishead hospitals can also build personal relationships with cottage hospital, which meant fewer beds, and we lost a patients and carers as they deliver continuous care from range of respite care beds at Orchard View. We were outside the hospital environment, as the hon. Member always promised that alternatives would be found, and for Strangford, among others, pointed out. That is an they never materialised. We must understand that if we important point that should not be overlooked. do not care for the carers and if they become unable Community hospitals continue to play an important voluntarily to carry out those functions, for which they part in health care provision. Their role is valued, and should be given more thanks by the nation, it will cost we are right to support it. For the record, Labour the NHS a great deal of money. continues to be committed to community hospitals The issue is not a party one, although I am rather when they represent the best solutions for local communities. surprised that not a single Labour Back Bencher seems My constituency is urban and it is served by several to have a community hospital problem to talk about large district general hospitals, with not one community today. However, there is no doubt that people believe hospital, but I acknowledge that other parts of the that community hospitals are good for them and their country have a very different geographical make-up, local identity. They are good value for money and good and that community hospitals are the right way forward health economics and, above all, good for patients. My for the provision of health care in those communities. hon. Friend the Minister is new to his post, and I want However, the NHS Healthier Together consultation to tell him that community hospitals are what the public is under way in my area; that is a proposed radical undoubtedly want from health care. It is up to the upheaval of hospital care, with fewer and larger specialist Government to ensure that that is what the public get. hospitals, which will leave some of the smaller district general hospitals to become, effectively, large urban cottage hospitals. It remains to be seen whether that 10.33 am approach will work, but it is at least an option that Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): It is, keeps some hospital care in the community in urban as ever, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, areas. Often full-scale hospital reorganisations do not Mr Owen. I congratulate the hon. Member for Dover do that, so perhaps what is happening is a new venture. 97WH Community Hospitals3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 98WH

[Andrew Gwynne] was a worry during deliberation of the Bill that the role of community hospitals might be overlooked. Has the Community hospitals can provide a vital step between Department assessed whether those fears have come to social care and acute care, and Labour would seek to anything anywhere in the country? The hon. Member develop that further. The case made by the right hon. for Totnes hit the nail on the head when she referred to Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) about, particularly, the complexity of tendering rounds for funding at the the invaluable role that community hospitals could play expense of local services. I would be interested to hear in providing extra respite care beds, is one we should the Minister’s view on that. take seriously, especially given the new obligations under One obvious consequence of the 2012 Act has been the Care Act 2014. the introduction and rapid expansion of “any qualified Perhaps community hospitals could move into that provider”, which made it easier for commissioning role more, along with the provision of more GP and groups—indeed, it often became necessary—to look dentistry services. There could be much more provision outside the NHS to the private sector to provide even from within the existing bricks and mortar—services more services than ever before. could be nearer to where people live, and there could I am still worried that when trusts are faced with the also be support provision, which is particularly relevant financial pressures that we have heard about, which for community hospitals that may at present be only arise for a variety of reasons, they often look at the need marginally viable. That possibility should be explored. to remodel clinical services and centralisation, as the Some concerns remain, however, and I hope that the hon. Member for Dover said. That takes services away Minister will be able to offer the House some reassurance from the community and sometimes from district general today. He will, I hope, be aware of our ongoing concerns hospitals. Sometimes there are sound clinical and financial about the Government’s structural reforms. I know that arguments for that, but it is often financially driven. the hon. Member for Stroud has come to a different That will almost certainly have an effect on any extension conclusion, but I think that evidence is mounting that to the provision of those services in community hospitals. some of the reforms have made the co-ordination and The concept of whole-person care necessitates patient- delivery of integrated services far more difficult. I suspect centred care closer to where people live, and there may the Government now agree with that view, and that they be a huge opportunity for cottage hospitals and other are permitting the emerging integrated care organisations smaller localised health facilities to adapt and to fit to be exempted from parts of the regulations on competition comfortably into this model. Clinical commissioning under section 75 of the Health and Social Care Act groups and integrated care organisations should look 2012 for precisely that reason. We believe totally that seriously at the possibilities that such facilities provide the future requires the integration of care and health for the future delivery of joined-up health and social services. Yet I fear that some of the Government’s care in a community setting. policies are driving us more towards fragmentation. Let The hon. Member for Dover and other hon. Members, us not be in any doubt: community hospitals have a including the hon. Member for Totnes, raised the prospect vital role to play. However, as we have discussed, the of community hospitals becoming social enterprises. To approach may not be the right one everywhere. me, as a member of the Co-operative party, that is an The Labour party remains committed to community interesting concept. However, in response to an intervention, hospitals. The last Labour Government introduced a the hon. Gentleman referred to the NHS “leviathan”. fund specifically to help them, and I suspect that the There are pressures on centralisation, as we have heard, Vale community hospital in the constituency of the but I am worried that under the 2012 Act cottage hon. Member for Stroud, which opened in 2011, was hospitals will also have to compete with the leviathan of paid for partly from that fund. The fund was not large corporate private providers. I am worried that automatically taken up by primary care trusts throughout “any qualified provider” means that private sector the country and in some areas there was a different view organisations will cherry-pick services and leave cottage of the role of community hospitals, but where it was hospitals vulnerable to the pressures of centralisation taken up, it has clearly made a huge difference to those and of losing key local services; such organisations are communities. often better at going through the bidding process, as the I looked at the Care Quality Commission’s website, hon. Member for Totnes said. and the Vale community hospital has an outstanding This Government and the next should do all they can reputation. The Labour party made a commitment to to ensure that patients can make real choices about community hospitals where they are the right choice for receiving the health care they need close to their homes. the local community, and that commitment continues. I We must make the vision of whole-person care a reality. hope that the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) Community hospitals are valued and must have a real secures a future for his community hospital because it role in developing and delivering a more integrated and sounds as though it is really needed in his community. people-centred health care system. I hope that we all We are just over a year into the changes introduced support that, and I look forward to the Minister’s reply. by the Health and Social Care Act 2012. I hope that the Albert Owen (in the Chair): Before calling the Minister, Minister will take stock of some of those changes and I add my congratulations to him and welcome him to some of the service reconfigurations that are now being his new position. proposed in different parts of the country, and reassure us that community hospitals are not being unfairly penalised in the new internal market. 10.45 am Responsibility for commissioning health care services The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, has moved into the hands of clinical commissioning Innovation and Skills (George Freeman): Thank you, groups from the former primary care trusts, and there Mr Owen. It is a great pleasure to serve under your 99WH Community Hospitals3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 100WH chairmanship in my inaugural appearance on the Front NHS reforms are changing the NHS in a way that Bench on this subject. I thank hon. Members for their should help to support more local and community kind words of congratulation and welcome on my facilities, putting in place specific protection for community appointment. hospitals. I will try to address some of the specific I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dover points that have been raised, and if time prevents me (Charlie Elphicke) on securing this debate and on his from doing so, I will write to colleagues to deal with tireless work on this matter and the wider subject of points that they have raised. social engagement and community ownership of public We should remind ourselves about what community resources. I pay tribute to his work in his constituency, hospitals are and why they matter so much. They are particularly on securing the future of the Victoria hospital local hospitals, units or centres providing an appropriate in Deal. range and format of accessible health care facilities and Several hon. Members who are not here at this well resources. There are around 300 in England and they attended debate, such as my hon. Friend the Member are overwhelmingly owned by NHS trusts, foundation for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) and my right trusts and NHS Property Services Ltd. Where they are hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan wholly owned by the NHS and are needed for service Beith), continue to support their local community hospitals delivery, they will remain in NHS ownership and will through their constituency and parliamentary work. I not be sold for profit. The sustainability of a community extend my thanks to all hon. Members. It is wonderful hospital is down to the decision making of local NHS to see so many of them here today representing their commissioners, regardless of who owns the hospital. own community hospitals and the wider cause. Community hospitals can be invaluable assets that We have heard a range of excellent contributions make it easier for people to get care and treatment in from a distinguished and committed group of hon. their community, as we have heard, closer to where they Members, including two doctors—the Chairman of the live. They allow large hospitals to discharge patients Select Committee on Health, my hon. Friend the Member safely into more appropriate care, freeing up hospital for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), and my right hon. Friend beds for people who need them urgently, and they allow the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox)—and my many patients to avoid travelling to large hospitals right hon. Friend the Member for North West Hampshire altogether, providing a wide range of vital services, (Sir George Young), my hon. Friends the Members for from minor injury clinics and diagnostic services to Stroud (Neil Carmichael), for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) intensive rehabilitation. and for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), and the hon. Members Therefore, people are often very protective of their for Upper Bann (David Simpson) and for Strangford local hospital, and with good reason. In many cases, (Jim Shannon). they deliver a range of essential services, as well as We have heard some important reasons why community providing employment for local people and often space hospitals and local health care facilities matter so much, for community groups and associated members of what and I will highlight and reinforce them. We have heard one might call “the health big society”. It is understandable strong views about the invaluable role of community that community hospitals are fiercely defended and hospitals, clinics and local health centres in our communities; inspire such loyalty, and that support for local facilities about the benefits of community engagement and patient is a sign of the growing appetite for the quiet revolution voices in health care that flow from them; about the of patient empowerment and health citizenship at the potential for community hospitals to be hubs of social heart of our vision of a 21st-century health service. care, intermediate care and recovery beds; and about That is why everything we are doing in central Government the role of community hospitals in easing pressure on is designed to support local clinicians and patients to expensive clinical and bed space in our acute hospitals. change and shape their local NHS for the better, making Some colleagues have made the point that big is not improvements to primary and community services to always best in health care. We have also heard about the suit local needs. importance of integrating social care and health care, As a result of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which is a Government priority, as is the role of local PCTs have been abolished and responsibility for centres in facilitating that; the impact of reconfiguration commissioning services has, as we know, moved to on recruitment; the important role of community hospitals clinical commissioning groups and local clinicians are in providing respite care beds; and the strength of now in control. CCGs are free to commission services patient support and community voice in support of that they judge provide the best care and outcomes for hospitals. their patients and free to work out which services are We have heard some important examples of imaginative needed and where they should be located to best meet new thinking in Dover, Maldon, Andover, Congleton local needs. With strong local patient and clinician and elsewhere, and of the risk of fundraising being input, the CCGs will also be able to decide which channelled to the big, the professional and the remote providers are in the best position to offer those services. by excessive bureaucracy and complexity. We also heard They—and, I am delighted to say, not the Ministers at an important point about transparency and evidence-based, the Department of Health or officials at NHS England— jargon-free language in consultations, the absence of will determine whether a community hospital remains which militates against the small, voluntary and local open and what services it should provide. community. With the abolition of PCTs in April 2013, ownership I want to start by signalling that all Ministers in the of a significant number of community hospitals changed. Department of Health acknowledge absolutely the great Some were transferred to local NHS trusts and NHS benefits that community health care, hospitals and health foundation trusts. Other hospitals went to NHS Property centres provide to our communities. I will speak about Services, the Department of Health-owned property the role we foresee them playing and highlight how our management company.I know some hon. Members—some 101WH Community Hospitals3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Community Hospitals 102WH

[George Freeman] alternative community use could be found for the site. I think that is a key point. We will not necessarily be not here today—have concerns about some of those helping our constituents in advocating community transfers, which I want to touch on. I want to make it ownership where commissioners have taken a decision clear that the conditions applying to those transfers to decommission services at particular site. mean the hospitals will not be closed unless commissioners In conclusion, I want to highlight that the Government determine that they are no longer fit for purpose. As and Ministers are absolutely committed to greater diversity, with all decisions about local patient services, it is choice and local community influence in our modern absolutely right that those decisions are taken locally, NHS. We have taken steps to secure the sites of community taking account of local views. hospitals and make sure they are used for the benefit of Sometimes tough decisions need to be taken. Buildings their community where there is an ongoing use for become tired and inefficient. New and better treatment, them. However, the lifespan of those hospitals is solely diagnostics and technological innovations are transforming down to the decisions made locally by clinicians and the way in which health care is delivered, and, of course, service providers—the people qualified to make those communities grow and evolve. It is understandable that decisions. That is the best thing for the hospitals themselves, sometimes old infrastructure, though much loved by the and it is certainly the best thing for the communities we community, cannot always keep up with the community’s serve. needs. It is right then that commissioners explore how If my hon. Friends or any other hon. Members have services can continue to be delivered efficiently and raised specific concerns that I have not addressed or accessibly to patients. highlighted in my earlier comments, please— That could mean decommissioning a hospital, in part or wholly, and moving some services even closer to the Mr Whittingdale: Will the Minister give way? community. It could mean extra investment to modernise and develop existing community hospital centres, such George Freeman: I would be delighted to. as the development of the new Buckland hospital in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Dover. Mr Whittingdale: Just before the Minister sits down, I These are tough decisions about meeting the changing accept that decisions will be made locally, but I raise health needs of the local community in the decades to again the specific proposal that I suggested was under come and it is absolutely right that they should be taken consideration, of obtaining a new hospital as a benefit locally, driven by what is best for local people. of the development scheme. Although that is to be I am well aware that some hon. Members have been locally determined, it would help enormously if the asked by their constituents about promoting community Minister could at least smile on it and encourage that ownership of hospital assets in order to save at-risk or kind of thinking. If he would like to write to me once he surplus hospital and clinical space, and I emphasise that knows a little more about it, I would be very grateful to all NHS property decisions are driven by clinical decision him. making by the CCG, and not the other way round. First, under statutory provisions, while a building is George Freeman: I am very grateful to my hon. needed to deliver NHS services, no NHS organisation Friend for flagging that point up. It was concealed will be allowed to sell it off, so there is no question of within my list of exciting and imaginative bold thinking, useful NHS property being transferred outside the NHS. but I did hear him and I would be very interested to The commissioners decide that, not the providers. At pick that up. I invite him to write to me with the details. the same time, that means that a community-owned The vision at the heart of our NHS reforms is of an company is unable to own the freehold of operational NHS freed from the 20th-century model of health care NHS property. in which health has been something done to the people Secondly, current Government policy is that property we serve when government deems it appropriate, with that is surplus to the NHS and the wider public sector the shape of health driven from the top down, to a should normally be sold by auction or competitive model of 21st-century health care in which services are tender. In such cases, a community-owned company shaped by local priorities and greater freedoms to innovate would have the opportunity to bid for the property and differentiate, combining the local, the personal and along with other interested parties, but there is no the voluntary with the general, the central, the specialist guarantee that the community-owned company’s bid and the world-class. Exciting breakthroughs in diagnostics, would be successful. However, if they were successful, remote sensing, e-health and telehealth, and in non-invasive we need to be clear that it would be in circumstances new surgical and informatics technologies are driving where NHS commissioners would have already decided new models of integrated health and social care. I that the site is no longer required for health service believe that it is one in which local community-based delivery. It would therefore no longer be operated as an hospitals, clinics and health centres will play a key role NHS community hospital, but that is not to say an in the next century. 103WH 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Renewable Energy Development 104WH (Beccles) Renewable Energy Development (Beccles) opportunity to have their say and that applicants know where they stand so that they can build their businesses in a sustainable way with a degree of certainty. 10.58 am I shall briefly outline the framework that the Government Albert Owen (in the Chair): We move on to the second have laid down within which renewable energy applications debate of this morning, on Government actions and of less than 50 MW are determined. That is set out in a planning applications for renewable energy development variety of documents and statements: the “National in the Beccles area—I hope I pronounced that correctly. Planning Policy Framework”, the “UK Renewable Energy I call Mr Peter Aldous. Roadmap”, the “Planning practice guidance for renewable and low carbon energy”dated July 2013 and the Secretary Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): You have indeed of State’s written statements of 10 October 2013 and pronounced that correctly, Mr Owen. It is a pleasure to 9 April 2014, which set out the criteria that will be serve under your chairmanship and I am pleased to considered in deciding whether to recover appeals. have secured this debate. I shall highlight five particular points in relation to Over the past three years, the Government have made the framework: first, the primary importance of the a variety of changes to the planning system and the local planning authority’s development plan and its framework within which planning applications for onshore policies in determining planning applications, which to renewable energy projects are determined. Many of me is the most important issue; secondly, the duty on those applications are controversial and it was right local communities to adopt green energy schemes, but that the Government responded to public concern. with the understanding that they should not automatically The purpose of this debate is to draw attention to two override environmental protections and their planning planning applications in the vicinity of Beccles in my concerns; thirdly, the need for special consideration to constituency. Both have been subject to appeals and be given to the environment and the landscape of national raise concerns as to whether the Government’s reforms parks—the Barsham site lies in close proximity to the are working. The first application at Ellough, to the east Norfolk and Suffolk broads; fourthly, the requirement of the town, is for a 46-hectare solar farm that the to consider whether unacceptable development can be Secretary of State recovered for his own decision. He made acceptable through planning obligations and reversed the planning inspector’s decision to approve conditions; and, finally, the extension of the Secretary the scheme and his own decision was overturned in the of State’s ability to recover appeals, so that local High Court in June. The second application is to the communities can have confidence in the appeals process west, at Barsham, where the Secretary of State declined and that their concerns will not be ignored by the “man to recover the appeal which the inspector had approved. from the Ministry”. It is those factors that should be That case is now in the High Court. given most consideration in determining planning What causes me particular concern is that the Secretary applications. of State recovered the Ellough case when I had personally What happened at Ellough? The officers at Waveney received only one representation against the development, district council recommended the scheme for approval. but he declined to do so at Barsham when most of the The planning committee went against that recommendation local community was up in arms against it. and refused the application. The developer appealed, In the foreword to the “National Planning Policy and the planning inspector upheld that appeal. The Framework”, which underpins much of the new planning Secretary of State, on recovery, reversed that decision, regime, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge which the developer challenged in the High Court, Wells (Greg Clark), who is now the Minister for Universities, where they were successful; the Secretary of State’s Science and Cities but was at the time the Minister decision was quashed and the appeal referred back to responsible for planning, commented that the framework’s him for redetermination. purpose was to allow I shall highlight the issues that have come out of the “people and communities back into planning.” case. First, Mr Justice Lindblom, in his judgment, From the experiences in the Beccles area, it is clear that emphasised the importance, in deciding whether to that objective has not yet been achieved. The system is approve such a planning application, of having regard not working as it should be, and it is important to learn to the local planning authority’s development plan and lessons so that it can be improved. of making decisions in accordance with that. Waveney I should point out, Mr Owen, that I have interests in district council has set down policies as part of its family farms in Suffolk, where a renewable energy project development plan in which it provides guidance and a has taken place and where another is being pursued. I framework for determining renewable energy planning am a supporter of renewable energy, which provides an applications. Unless material considerations indicate opportunity for the UK to update its ageing energy otherwise, the decision should be made in accordance infrastructure, to produce clean electricity and to move with those policies. That is, after all, an important towards a more secure means of supply, which will lead aspect of localism. The judge concluded that a failure to greater price stability. There is also the opportunity, to have regard to that requirement was a “fatal flaw” in if properly handled, to create new jobs. That is important the Secretary of State’s decision. in the Waveney area, where offshore wind in particular It is important for the applicant to engage in pre- has the potential to revitalise the local economy. application consultations with the planning authority That said, it is important that developments are and to tell the local community about their plans and carried out in the right places and not imposed on local answer its questions. In this case, the developer did that, communities, that applications are determined in a distributing more than 3,000 leaflets and holding a reasonable time scale, that local people have every public exhibition. 105WH Renewable Energy Development 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Renewable Energy Development 106WH (Beccles) (Beccles) [Peter Aldous] refused. The inspector criticised its approach and applied limited weight to the study, partly on the basis that it It is necessary for the planning authority to consider had not been formally adopted by the authority, although whether the imposition of planning obligations and that had not prevented him from criticising Waveney conditions could mitigate concerns about the development. district council. The study is an excellent piece of work. That course was also pursued and the scheme was I believe that in dismissing it, the inspector has altered, with the removal of an area from the application misinterpreted his duty with regard to national parks, site, increased buffer planting and a reduction in the which is clearly laid down in legislation. height of the panels. Another concern is that if the development proceeds, The development is in the Hundred River special it is highly likely that an adjoining airstrip will have to landscape area, and the planning officers at Waveney close. It is not right that the planning system is in effect district council considered whether that was a reason to used as a vehicle for stopping activities, whether business refuse the application. They concluded that mitigating or leisure, that have taken place for many years. measures could address their concerns and they had it The inspector also commented that the proposed in mind that, unlike the broads, the Hundred River wind turbine was no different from the windmills that valley is not a nationally designated area. That was the used to be an important feature of the broads landscape. consideration on which they differed from the planning In doing so, he missed the point. Not only is the committee. Taking all factors into account, I believe proposed turbine much larger in scale than traditional that the officers were right—that theirs and the planning windmills, but it is not intended for the local purpose of inspector’s decisions were the correct ones and the harnessing wind and generating energy that is used Secretary of State’s was the wrong one. locally. As an aside, that is still happening in Germany What is happening at Barsham? The position there is today, where the planning system works better and that the application for a wind turbine with a height of where 50% of the country’s renewable power capacity is 125 metres was considered by Waveney’s planning owned by private citizens, with profits remaining in committee in March 2013. There was an officer local and often poor rural areas. Such an approach recommendation for refusal, to which the committee should be pursued in this country, but I digress. That is that time agreed. The developer appealed. The public a debate for another time, with another Minister. inquiry took place last October, and the inspector issued Various aspects of procedure have left the local his decision to uphold the appeal this April. Subsequently, community cynical, disillusioned and feeling as though the local community has issued a High Court challenge the whole system is against them. First, HALT, which against that decision. That was initially heard in July, was a rule 6 party to the planning inquiry, made a and the case was adjourned until 28 and 29 October. prompt request when the date of the inquiry was announced There is considerable local unrest and unhappiness for it to be changed so that its landscape consultant, about how matters have unfolded, and I fully sympathise who had an unavoidable clashing commitment, could with that. I shall highlight some of the concerns. First, attend to present her evidence. That request was rejected large numbers of people feel that their views, those of out of hand. their democratically elected representatives and the decision Secondly, it is a concern locally that in the High of their local council have been ignored and there has Court the Secretary of State and the developer are been no attempt to include people and communities in being represented by counsel from the same barristers’ the decision-making process, as was envisaged in the chambers. I am fully aware that it is not unusual for Localism Act 2011 and the national planning policy barristers from the same chambers to represent different framework. parties to the dispute, but the fact that that chambers is The community group HALT, which was set up to perceived to have a commercial interest in upholding a represent the views of local people, has 350 supporters. decision that, in effect, undermines Government planning Their concerns have not been listened to—nor have policies, particularly with regard to developments in or those of Beccles town council, nine parish councils, the near national parks, is causing considerable concern district councillor, the county councillor, the leader of locally. the county council and two Members of Parliament: There was considerable upset about the fact that the myself and my hon. Friend the Member for South High Court hearing on 10 July had to be adjourned Norfolk (Mr Bacon), whose constituency includes that because neither the Secretary of State nor the developer’s part of the broads that lies close to the application site. legal teams had put together and presented their evidence All have made representations to the Secretary of State properly. That was understandably annoying to the for the case to be recovered, but they have all been claimants, who had invested considerable time and incurred dismissed. considerable expense in putting their case together. Secondly, the inspector has made the same mistake as However, the judge recognised the iniquity of the situation the Secretary of State did at Ellough: he has not given and awarded costs for the day in the claimants’ favour. Waveney district council’s local planning policies the I must draw my conclusions together. On paper, the priority that the legislation requires. In his decision, he Government’s planning reforms have much to commend criticised those policies at some length. He was wrong them, but they are not being put into practice in the to do so, as the policies themselves had been submitted, intended manner. I refer back to the foreword written examined and approved by another inspector before by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge being adopted as the council’s planning policy. Wells for the national planning policy framework. He The Broads Authority, the neighbouring planning emphasised the need for planning to be a collective authority, looked closely at the scheme, applied its own exercise that includes, rather than excludes, people and specifically produced seven-step landscape sensitivity communities. The experiences from Barsham show that study and concluded that the application should be that is not being achieved. If the Barsham decision 107WH Renewable Energy Development 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Renewable Energy Development 108WH (Beccles) (Beccles) stands, it will effectively drive a coach and horses through respond in general terms about the planning policy the Government’s planning reforms. It will undermine issues that my hon. Friend has raised and try to answer the importance of local plans, create a precedent for his questions. development in close proximity to national parks and In the solar farm case at Ellough, the High Court disfranchise local communities. found that the decision letter was flawed solely because In summary, I have three requests for the Minister, it did not identify whether the development proposal which I hope he will address in his reply. First, at was in accordance with the development plan. The Ellough, the application is in a state of limbo. Although Department successfully defended that challenge on all the Secretary of State’s decision has been set aside as the other legal grounds argued by the applicant, including being unlawfully made, the planning application remains the alleged inconsistency with national policy and the undetermined. From the applicants’ perspective, the suggestion that the Secretary of State had exaggerated situation makes running their business difficult. I would the likely harm of the proposal. The case is now back be grateful if the Minister impressed on the Secretary of with planning Ministers in the Department for State the need for a prompt decision on the matter. determination, so I am sure that my hon. Friend appreciates Development that is sustainable should go ahead without that I cannot discuss the merits of the application. He delay. said that the case was “in limbo.” I hope that it will help Secondly, at Barsham, I urge the Secretary of State to him to know that because of the flaw identified in the quash the planning inspectorate’s decision and to instigate decision letter, we are not seeking to appeal the High a fresh planning inquiry, which he should recover for his Court judgment. own determination. In his letter to me of 4 December last year, the Under-Secretary of State for Communities Peter Aldous: I think I am right in saying—perhaps and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member the Minister will confirm this—that in his judgment, for Keighley (Kris Hopkins)—the Minister’s departmental the judge denied the Secretary of State the right to colleague—commented that cases would be recovered appeal. Even though only one of the grounds was only if they raised wider concerns and echoed beyond upheld, to my mind that indicates not a points decision the local area. I submit that that is the case at Barsham. against the Secretary of State, but a knockout. Finally, I believe that full details of all renewable energy applications that have been recovered since October Stephen Williams: My hon. Friend has made his 2013 should be made available for Parliament to scrutinise, point, and his phraseology is on the record. I am sure so that it can judge for itself how the new planning that the Secretary of State will take notice of how my system is working, consider whether the system is achieving hon. Friend chooses to describe that decision. its objectives and decide whether reforms are necessary. I turn to the coalition Government’s overall approach It is important that the system should function properly, to renewable energy. We understand the strength of so that local communities and developers know where local concerns about the potential impact of the application, they stand. The renewable energy industry needs to individually and cumulatively, on landscapes and local have confidence in the system so that it can make amenity. The coalition Government are committed to investment decisions with a degree of certainty. Local increasing the deployment of renewable energy, but that communities need to know that they will be given a fair must be balanced with local environmental considerations hearing. They need to know that their views will be and the concerns of local communities. The planning properly considered and not ridden over roughshod, as policies and practice guidance introduced by the I fear has been the case at Barsham. Government address those concerns. Strong protections are in place nationally for the 11.15 am natural and historic environment. The national planning policy framework is clear that an application for renewable The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for energy development should be approved only if the Communities and Local Government (Stephen Williams): impact is, or can be made, acceptable to local people. Bore da, Mr Owen. Good morning. It is a pleasure to That is obviously a matter of judgment, as is clearly the serve under your chairmanship in our novel, non- case here, but we have made it clear that protecting the Westminster Hall surroundings. I congratulate my hon. local natural environment should be properly considered Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) on alongside the broader concern to meet the policy objective securing the debate and thank him for the clear and of addressing climate change and protecting the global firm way in which he has expressed the strong views of environment. There need not be a conflict, but both his constituents on two renewable energy planning cases issues clearly need to be addressed in the decision-making in the Beccles area: the solar farm case at Ellough—I process. Meeting our energy goals should not be used to am glad that he said that word many times, because I justify the wrong development in the wrong location, so wondered how to pronounce it—where the High Court there certainly is not a blanket policy that such policies has recently upheld a judicial review against the Secretary will be applied everywhere regardless of local circumstances, of State; and the ongoing wind farm case at Laurels which are a crucial determining factor. Farm, Shipmeadow in Barsham where the Secretary of We have published new planning guidance to help State has declined to recover the case, against the strong ensure that decisions reflect the environmental balance local feeling that my hon. Friend has described. in the framework itself. That guidance is designed to I hope that my hon. Friend will understand that it is assist local councils and planning inspectors in their difficult for me to talk about the specifics of particular consideration of local plans and individual planning cases, because the quasi-judicial role held by the Secretary applications. Local plans are crucial, and we are determined of State and his team of Ministers in the planning that communities have an opportunity to influence the system makes it inappropriate for me to do so. I will decisions that affect them through the vehicle of the 109WH Renewable Energy Development 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Renewable Energy Development 110WH (Beccles) (Beccles) [Stephen Williams] will also share the information with other colleagues, who I am sure will be interested, by placing the table in local plan. My hon. Friend was not around in the the Library of the House. previous Parliament, but I assure him that many debates took place in the actual Westminster Hall Chamber on Peter Aldous: I appreciate that, in many respects, the the issue of top-down targets, whether in housing or Minister has not been involved with these cases, which renewable energy. Regional spatial strategies were a are a hospital pass for him. I understand why, with a frequent topic of such debates. We have abolished those quasi-legal process ongoing, he does not wish to comment strategies and the top-down approach, and we are on the Barsham case, but can he confirm that the encouraging local councils to work with their communities Secretary of State does have the ability at this stage to to set out in their local plan where renewable energy quash the decision? Will the Secretary of State consider developments should and should not take place. doing so in light of the local opposition to the scheme? Where councils have identified areas suitable for Stephen Williams: The Secretary of State has a variety renewable energy developments, they should not feel of tools at his disposal under planning law, including that they have to give permission for speculative applications the ability to recover appeals and make the decision in outside those areas if they judge the impact to be person, but that decision is still based on advice from unacceptable. The Government’s aim is for every area officials in accordance with the council’s local plan, the to have a local plan, consistent with the framework, national planning policy framework and existing planning setting out local people’s views on how they wish their law and casework. The mere fact that it is a recovered community to develop, against which planning applications appeal does not necessarily mean that the decision my will be judged. Those plans therefore have a pivotal hon. Friend and his constituents want can be made, as place in planning decisions. Planning law requires that the decision still needs to be made in a quasi-judicial applications for planning permission must be determined, environment, but he is right that that power exists. As including on appeal, in accordance with the statutory he says, I am not involved in the intricacies of the development plan for the area, unless material case—that is why I am doing this—so I will not answer considerations indicate otherwise. off the top of my head the question of whether the power exists at this moment in time, given the status of I appreciate the natural concern in my hon. Friend’s the application. His remarks will appear in Hansard, constituency and elsewhere about local decisions being and if any remaining point needs to be cleared up, I will challenged on appeal. It is a long-standing feature of ensure that he is written to promptly so that he has total our planning system that applicants have the right of satisfaction. appeal, but it is important that local communities have confidence in the appeals process and that the environmental Peter Aldous: I am grateful to the Minister for giving balance expected by the framework is reflected in decisions that undertaking. Will he also confirm that he will take on renewable energy developments. I understand the the issues I have raised today to the Secretary of State frustration that communities feel when a planning inspector so that he can make the decision as to whether he will gives the go-ahead for a proposal that they and their quash the scheme? Going to the High Court costs local elected representatives on the planning committee have people a lot of money. opposed. Stephen Williams: Yes, I am happy to give that Planning inspectors, of course, do not reach such undertaking. The Secretary of State will be made aware decisions lightly and—just like local councils, elected of any information that may help him with whatever members of local councils and planning Ministers—they decision he needs to take, including information from must take their decisions in accordance with planning the Hansard report of today’s debate and any law. That means that every case is considered on its correspondence that passes between me and my hon. individual merits within the context of the local council’s Friend the Member for Waveney. development plan. That is why having an up-to-date We need renewable energy to make the United Kingdom local plan is vital. Inspectors should also consider—in more energy secure, to help protect consumers from planning language—other material considerations, which fossil fuel price fluctuations in a volatile world and to include national policy and guidance. The new planning help build an economy with lower carbon emissions. guidance is helping to ensure that decisions reflect the National planning policies are clear that all communities environmental balance set out in the framework. have a responsibility to contribute to the Government’s My hon. Friend’s second main request is for the aspiration of sustainable energy generation. Equally, we Secretary of State to “quash” the Barsham decision. have ensured that local councils have the tools they need Again, I understand local frustration when a planning to ensure that sustainable energy developments are built inspector gives the go-ahead for a locally opposed proposal. only where the impact will be acceptable locally. We are The inspector’s decision, however, is made on behalf of encouraging all local councils to get an up-to-date local the Secretary of State, and in that sense the decision is plan in place as soon as possible—I think that is an final unless it is challenged in the High Court. issue here—as local plans are the most effective way of My hon. Friend also seeks information on renewable managing development in a local area. We always keep energy appeals that have been recovered since October national planning policy on renewable energy under 2013. Individually, those decisions are put in the public review. As a result of this debate, we will take account domain as they are made, but I am happy to talk to of the cases that my hon. Friend has drawn to our officials in order to collate that information. He is attention when we review policy in the future. trying to see the overall picture and pattern, so I will ask 11.29 am officials to collate that information and give it to him. I Sitting suspended. 111WH 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 112WH

Adult Learning college embraced the needs of the Olympics, when it provided training for the catering—it has an excellent training section—and is embracing the needs of Tech [JOHN ROBERTSON in the Chair] City, where it is pioneering its apprenticeships, working with employers. That has served the needs of local 2.30 pm businesses and therefore, crucially, enhanced the Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ employment prospects of students in the local area. Co-op): It is a pleasure as ever to serve under your Many other colleges up and down the country can and chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I am delighted to have do provide similarly, but flexibility is important. secured this debate on an issue vital to the future of the The adult skills budget is the main source of funding British economy: skilling up our adult work force. I am for FE colleges, but it is not the only source for adult particularly pleased to stand here and highlight to the learning. I believe that a strong, effective FE sector is Minister the excellent provision we have in Hackney. I vital to Britain’s future, but those colleges face a slew of am proud to represent Hackney community college, our funding changes, and I make a plea to the Minister, who local further education college, which really is what it is new in his role, to look at that seriously.All Governments says on the tin. It provides education and training to a have done that, but often during a year or at very short community of people, many of whom did not have the notice funding is withdrawn or drastically changed, and chance the first time around. Indeed, some may have short-term initiatives are given funding designed to arrived in the country without the benefit of skills, bolster a political announcement, which makes it education and training in the countries they came from. complicated for colleges and providers to deliver and is They are ambitious to achieve, ambitious to learn and often detrimental to learners. ambitious to work, and the college provides great support to them. There could be many examples of how the system is broken, but I do not have time to go into them all. One I am aware that many other colleagues want to speak, example is this: the number of ESOL—English for so I will try to keep my opening remarks as brief as is speakers of other languages—students in Hackney would reasonable. I want to talk about funding, in particular have reduced by 35% but for the £400,000 paid by the for FE, and about apprenticeships and skills. We all Department for Communities and Local Government. know that funding for over-18s has always been complex When one Department withdraws funds, another often because the bureaucracy of Government means that, puts the money in, but that adds to the disjointed sadly, funding falls between at least two Departments picture I have painted and, in a constituency such as and sometimes more. The Minister has a challenge in Hackney South and Shoreditch, and in a borough such that he represents only one section of the funding for as Hackney, what could be more important than skilling adult education. I appreciate that limitation, but I hope up Britain by ensuring that those basic language skills that, in his role, he has the clout to bang heads together are in place? for the joined-up government that every party strives for. That is particularly important in adult learning, What plans does the Minister’s Department have for because if the system does not work, learners fall through the adult skills budget in future years? I highlight in the gap as well as providers—I will touch on the challenges particular the £340 million reallocated from the adult for providers as well. skills budget to the employer ownership skills pilots up to 2015-16. How much has been spent to date, how Tracking funding and ensuring that the provider and many individuals have started those training courses, the learner can deliver the contract between them is how many have finished them and where can MPs get difficult, because Departments focus on their narrow routine information about how that money is spent? financial interests rather than the whole experience of Both the Library and I had great difficulty in finding the learner or the needs of the employers, which are that, so I hope that, in a spirit of openness and transparency, critical. That was stark in a previous Westminster Hall the Minister points us in the right direction. debate, when we discussed how the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills had cut funding for We have a shared interest in ensuring that we have the over 18s—we had a different Minister at that time. That best possible quality of education in FE. We also need debate aroused cross-party concern about both the to recognise the vital role FE has in working with many impact on the viability of education providers and the adults who have had bad learning experiences in the disproportionate impact on many 18-year-olds. That past, and for whom simply attending class regularly is debate can be seen as a proxy for some of the challenges the first big achievement. faced by many other learners across the age ranges. I am a regular visitor to Hackney community college, Funding has also been catastrophically reduced over but I remember not long ago meeting two interesting the years. Between 2009 and 2015 alone, there is a 35% learners, one of whom was training to be a painter and reduction in the adult skills budget—the core budget decorator. He had not enjoyed school and had failed to for FE—and during a similar period, the number of achieve basic qualifications in English and maths—that people aged 19 and over participating in Government- happened not in Hackney, but in another borough. He funded training, excluding higher education, has dropped was unable to read. To look like the other commuters, from 3.7 million to 3.28 million, so nearly half a million he pretended to read Metro on the tube every day, but fewer people are getting their learning and training he could not read even the headlines. With support provided. from his excellent tutors at the college he learned to Will the Minister tell us whether the Government read, and in a few months he was reading Metro for have any plans to introduce more ring-fencing of budgets, real. Such achievements may not be a great leap forward or will they allow local colleges and providers to meet in academic terms, but they were a big achievement for local needs? Hackney is an exemplar of the latter: the him and, critically, they enabled him to progress in his 113WH Adult Learning3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 114WH

[Meg Hillier] with the fast pace of change. For Britain to be successful and competitive—an ambition shared by all parties—we chosen career rather than be condemned to a limited must ensure we have a highly skilled population that choice of low wage, unskilled jobs. That is the nub of can compete with the best from around the world. Tech the issue. City is an international hub, not only because it competes I also met a young woman, who is a mother of a internationally, but because it attracts people from all young child, who similarly had not enjoyed maths at around the world to invest and work. For young people school, but, as she was training to be a chef, she could in Hackney to have a chance, we must ensure they are see the point in it. Again, she had support from Hackney trained, but we must also ensure that adults can train to tutors to ensure that she could get those necessary basic fulfil employers’ needs now and in future. We must not maths skills. For many, FE is a second chance at education, only equip school leavers, which we are doing effectively but, whether a first or second chance, it plays a vital in Hackney, but provide opportunities for adults to take role. Too often, however, it is the Cinderella of education. high-level skills training. It needs to be on a more stable footing. Although we all On the political side, there has been a lot of discussion want more money invested in training and education, about the UK Independence party and the sort of my bigger plea is for colleges to be given the freedom people who support it. There is a danger because many and stability to make their own sensible decisions. people in my constituency have been left behind— The Government have made many claims about the particularly men in their 50s who have skills but no increase in the number of apprenticeships created. I would paper qualification to prove it, who have never had a never be critical of the creation of new opportunities driving licence or a passport, who still live at home with for young people, but we need to look at those claims their parents, and who cannot provide the paperwork carefully—they should be heavily caveated. The number and skills qualifications needed to take on the jobs that of apprenticeships for over-24s has increased, while for they are skilled up to do. I met a 56-year-old who had 16 to 18-year-olds it has decreased in most areas. An added none of those things. He got training through the problem is that, in many areas, 16-year-olds are competing Olympics as a security guard and had all the right bits with A-level students and A-level students are competing of paper. Although he was unemployed when I met him, with graduates for those valuable opportunities, so we he felt confident that he was ahead of the pack. However, are seeing inflation of apprenticeship competition. Sought- there are many people in his position who have been left after apprenticeships require more interviews than a behind and would benefit from proper skills training. university place: the Rolls-Royce apprenticeship interview The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills process is longer than that for Oxbridge. equality analysis showed that women students, students from black and minority ethnic background, and those We need to get back to the heart of apprenticeships: from inner city areas are dropping out disproportionately training on the job, for a job. We also need to ensure from higher-level qualifications since loans for higher-level progression and opportunity for apprentices. I know courses were introduced—sadly, Hackney ticks all those that there is genuine desire in the Government to ensure boxes. People are increasingly doing shorter, lower-level that apprenticeships are a real opportunity, but we all qualifications. I hope the Minister shares my concerns hear bad stories about them not truly delivering. In about the long-term inequality that problem creates. Hackney, for example, I am approached every few months What does the Department intend to do to tackle it and by yet another provider keen to provide tech apprenticeships prevent inequality from becoming imbedded in the system? in Shoreditch. They always want a base in Shoreditch and most want to go it alone—they do not want to The number of students on advanced courses dropped collaborate with existing providers. Employers tell me by 20% between 2012 and 2013-14—one in five students that they are getting confused and potential apprentices fewer in only one year—according to research by the have to shop around. The quality of the education is Association of Colleges. Are the Government liaising often unclear and difficult to assess for both the potential with business sectors to ensure that the future work apprentices and the employers. I am not saying that force is appropriately skilled, and are they assessing the there should be one single provider, but we need much impact of that dramatic drop in numbers on Britain’s more clarity on quality. competitiveness? The CBI and many other key business groups have Information about apprenticeships should be clearer called for the skills deficit to be tackled. I believe and quality control needs to be rigorous. Employers passionately that helping workers to retrain is vital. such as Optimity in Shoreditch, which has been in the I have given an example from my constituency, and I vanguard of the tech apprenticeship set-up, is embracing meet many men and women from up and down the that initiative. Such employers have a vital role to play— country who have been out of the workplace for a while, clearly, without employers, the apprenticeships go nowhere perhaps because they had children or a health problem. —but they need a simple route to working with the right It does not take long for skills to get out of date, and it education partner and ensuring that that apprentice gets would be more cost-effective for the Government to good quality in both their training and their education. have a strategy for retraining for higher-level jobs, because That requires more accountability and monitoring, such when people get those jobs they pay more tax. as that required of FE colleges. We all want high-quality apprenticeships, so we must be wary of watered down offers. In Hackney, the cost of rent, child care and housing is so high that many working families are trapped in a On the skills deficit, as MP for Shoreditch, which cycle of working poverty. As I was preparing to speak includes the international tech hub that is often called today, I received a heartfelt tweet from Sarah, who said: Tech City, I frequently meet business innovators who “I would do anything to go back to some kind of adult know what skills they need but cannot recruit people learning to better my work skills so I can get a better job and with them locally. Admittedly, the sector is fast-moving, hopefully be able to provide for my family and not be reliant on and it is difficult for schools and colleges to keep up tax credits.” 115WH Adult Learning3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 116WH

Sarah speaks for so many of the forgotten people who I echo my hon. Friend’s comments on student loans. I work hard but have no realistic chance of skill development wish to ask the Minister what monitoring is being because minimum-wage employers often provide little undertaken of the effect of further education loans on or low-level training and the loan makes it impossible older students’ take-up of further education. We know for them to think about higher skills training. There is from the trends in higher education that the impact of great poverty in my constituency, but no poverty of student loans on younger students has not been as ambition. The Government must revisit the impact of significant as some of us feared, but mature students loans and assess what can be done to iron out the have significantly fallen away from higher education inequalities in the system. studies because they find it difficult to take on a debt My final point is about a real concern that I have. For obligation alongside other financial obligations that some time I have talked about this issue, but too many they have accrued. What trends has the Minister observed people are still being taken off courses by the jobcentre among those over 24 years old, and what further monitoring when they are close to completion, even if the course and adjusting action will the Government undertake if would lead to longer-term, sustainable and better-paid the loans significantly deter adults? work. The issue particularly affects parents, and usually I wish to ask the Minister about funding for HND mothers, whose present on their child’s fifth birthday is and HNC qualifications, which are offered in further to be told that they cannot complete the course they education colleges such as Trafford. My understanding have been doing for a few years because they need to is that the qualifications are currently funded by the seek employment immediately. Student Loans Company, but that a Higher Education Hackney community college has done great work in Funding Council for England weighting is added to negotiating for students, some of whom require only a fund courses that partly contribute to a degree-level week or two to complete their course. The cost of an qualification. I have been told that it has been proposed additional couple of months’ benefit is minimal compared that the funding will switch, and that in future those with the higher wage those people will earn with a good qualifications will be funded by the FE loan company. qualification under their belt. The additional tax they Will the additional weighting—the funding supported will pay and the fact that they will be less reliant on tax by HEFCE—be transferred across so those courses credits and benefits, as Sarah highlighted, will more continue to be fully funded? than pay for it. I know the Minister’s influence does not I am sure the Minister will understand that those extend to every part of the Government, but I hope that studies have particular economic importance, given what he, as Minister with responsibility for skills, will take they encompass. People who take up technically complex that up with the Department for Work and Pensions. It subjects can make a significant contribution to our is not dole for learning, but a sensible approach to skills economic situation, and it would be a great shame if training. It would be awful to condemn the many single funding pressures began to discourage some students mothers in my constituency to low-level, minimum-wage, from participating. low-skill employment for the sake of a few weeks of I support what my hon. Friend said about unemployment benefit, which would be a much bigger apprenticeships, and I would be grateful to hear the investment in their future, the future of their children Minister’s comments on the funding issues. As the and the future of Britain. Association of Colleges has observed, the current funding arrangements, in which the Skills Funding Agency funds Several hon. Members rose— the college and the employer pays an apprenticeship wage, amounts to a pretty significant subsidy for the John Robertson (in the Chair): Order. A number of employer because they get a fully-trained employee people wish to speak—I count eight all together. If hon. without having to contribute to their college training. Members keep their speeches between roughly six or seven minutes, we should get everybody in within a I understand that those arrangements are to be replaced decent amount of time. by an employer contribution and a tax break for employers. Does that mean that employers will continue to receive a subsidy, and, if so, will it have the same overall effect? 2.45 pm If there is to be a change in the funding structure for Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I appreciate apprenticeships, what assessment have Ministers made your calling me now, Mr Robertson. I have a constituent of the likelihood that small and medium-sized enterprises in the House whom I need to meet in the next few will continue to offer or increasingly offer apprenticeships? minutes, but I hope to return to the debate to hear as SMEs are an important source of apprenticeships for much of it as I can. I am grateful to Government the future, and it has been difficult to get them to Members for allowing me to follow my hon. Friend the engage with apprenticeship programmes. I would be Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier). interested to hear from the Minister what assessment I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. has been made of the effect of the funding arrangements There are some issues I wish to raise with the Minister. I on SMEs’ participation. want to take the opportunity to acknowledge publicly Vulnerable adults in particular can find FE studies a the excellent Trafford college in my constituency, which flexible and environmentally suitable approach to continuing I had the great pleasure of visiting during adult learners their learning. We have some good, supported training week earlier this summer. It was a joy to spend time programmes at Trafford, and throughout the country, with the adults who were returning to education after for younger students with learning disabilities. For example, many years and to see the enthusiasm with which they some good supported internship programmes, organised were embracing their studies and the obvious reward between local employers and local colleges, run well. they felt they were getting from participating in adult Those supported internships are not funded for over-25s, learning. although we know that adults with learning difficulties, 117WH Adult Learning3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 118WH

[Kate Green] constant discussion with them, trying to see how the jobs market will be and how it will serve that market in for example, will take longer to reach the point at which providing skills. That approach has been particularly they are ready to participate fully in education and positive in relation to apprenticeships, which have increased employment. by 78% in my constituency during the past four years, Is the Minister prepared to consider whether the helping us to reduce youth unemployment in my effective and successful supported internship model, constituency by 40% over the past 12 months. which works for younger adults, could be extended to We must not get away from the fact that, despite the older adults in those situations? It is not a quick fix—I good work done by North Warwickshire and Hinckley am not asking the Minister for an instant answer—but I college in difficult circumstances, we need to ensure that think that we would all appreciate hearing that he will we fill a growing skills gap, particularly in engineering take an interest in the subject. Those of us who have and other types of manufacturing and the construction thoughts and ideas about the issue, including charities industry. If we do not think carefully about how we are that I have worked with, might work with him to see going to deal with that, we could leave organisations what might be possible in this field. such as North Warwickshire and Hinckley college unable Finally, let me say a little about the role of employers, fully to fulfil the potential of young talent and fill the particularly in relation to employer ownership of skills, skills shortage. We should deal with that, rather than go which is a good idea in theory that is proving difficult to down the route favoured during the last economic make effective in practice. I should be interested to hear upturn—of having many people from other parts of how the Minister intends to improve its effectiveness. Europe, particularly, and other places abroad, come in The uptake is quite low and what is lacking, if I may say and do jobs instead of ensuring that we gave the right so, is a strategic economic context to employer ownership training and skills to our people here. I hope that my of skills. I particularly commend to the Minister work hon. Friend the Minister is listening to what I am saying done by the Greater Manchester chamber of commerce, about the support needed by colleges such as North which analysed all the many major construction projects Warwickshire and Hinckley college. that we expect in Greater Manchester over the next five King Edward VI college is a dedicated sixth form to 10 years—High Speed 2, the Metrolink extension, an provider that has been through the same difficulties in extension at the airport, new investment in Trafford relation to funding changes since 2009, and other Park in my constituency, the northern hub and so circumstances have made things difficult. First, the on—and mapped the job needs that will arise under presumption in favour of outstanding schools also being those projects, right down to individual jobs. The work able to open sixth forms has challenged the offer that it included identifying how many electricians, scaffolders, has been able to provide; the previous Government painters and decorators each project is likely to need, started that and the present Government have, to an what level of skills will be associated with those jobs extent, carried on with it. That continues to be an issue and when they are likely to come on stream. for this college. There are also issues about inequity to Clearly, the next step is to start matching all those do with VAT rules relating to dedicated sixth form fantastic data to training and education plans in our FE providers, which my hon. Friend the Minister no doubt colleges, schools and universities. However, there is a knows about. The college has also had an issue in mechanism missing that might otherwise connect that relation to changes to funding for providing sixth form economic analysis with the education providers, particularly courses for 18 to 19-year-olds who perhaps have not FE colleges. Will the Minister comment on whether he had the best start, for whatever reason, or have not would be interested in exploring that further, as I am achieved as well as they expected. sure Greater Manchester chamber of commerce would King Edward VI college has also been badly let down be keen to do? by the Skills Funding Agency, which has not supported its providing part-time adult A-level courses, leaving a gap in my area with virtually no provision for people 2.52 pm who want to do part-time A-level study after work. Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I congratulate Despite all the necessary, difficult decisions that have the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch been made to start dealing with the budget deficit left (Meg Hillier) on securing this important debate. We behind by the previous Government, what has been have some excellent FE provision in my area, but I want achieved has been positive. However, my argument is to make a few comments about two FE providers in based on a warning for the future. We need to be careful particular and the challenges they face. about how we approach funding for sixth form and FE North Warwickshire and Hinckley college is the provider colleges, to ensure that we have those skills to take our of most of the practical and vocational technical education economy forward, beyond the positive start that this to my constituents. Over the past five or six years—probably Government have made. since 2009—its budget has, as the hon. Lady mentioned in relation to provision in her constituency, been reducing 2.58 pm year on year. To be fair to the organisation, it has coped Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): It is a pleasure well and has been positive. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I, One of the most positive things that the college has too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney done—obviously, it has had to reorganise—is to make a South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) on securing the change towards supporting the local economy more, debate, and I welcome the Minister to his post. We have aligning its strategy with that of the local enterprise entertained one another through two Education Bills, partnership. That is now paying dividends. It is also when he was a lowly Parliamentary Private Secretary, so now far more engaged with local employers; it is in it is good to see him in his elevated position. 119WH Adult Learning3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 120WH

Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): He was never lowly. £1 billion overspend on free schools and academies, but still saw the best worst option as being to cut funding to Pat Glass: Indeed. the most vulnerable students, the people closest to being We have heard that FE is the Cinderella tier of the NEET and the most likely to cost this country dearly education service. Although successive Governments over the next 45 to 50 years if we do not get it right for have attempted to put additional funding into the primary them now. and secondary sectors and—perhaps to a lesser extent—into We have a strong higher education sector in this higher education, tertiary or further education has long country, with a strong research base that is recognised been underfunded and undervalued. However, all previous internationally, but only 40% of our young people go to neglect pales into insignificance when compared with university.For the remaining 60%, good quality alternatives what we have seen since 2010. to full-time degree study are reducing. We need a rebalance It is becoming clear that the pace and scale of the towards technical and vocational education, and that is most recent FE cuts is having a devastating impact on vital in ensuring the continued and sustainable growth adult learning and the long-term economic future of of the economy. The last 50 years have seen a continuous this country. The Department for Business, Innovation gravitational pull towards academic education, which and Skills has cut spending on the adult skills budget by has accelerated since the conversion of polytechnics to 35%, with total spending falling from £3 billion in 2009 universities. Academic is seen as good and vocational as to £2 billion now. bad, and anyone with any sense knows that we cannot build a sustainable economic future on that kind of The Department has, I acknowledge, chosen to protect foolishness. We have a skills shortage across the economy, a number of areas financially, and I welcome that. and it is not going to be filled by a couple of city Community learning, offender learning and financial technology colleges and the odd engineering-based free support for individuals have all been protected, and school. We need a sustainable and high quality route to those who receive benefits or take courses at the lowest technical and vocational education, and that route is qualification levels continue to receive free courses, but being systematically damaged through unsustainable I think—perhaps cynically—that that is more about FE cuts and the march towards the amalgamation of massaging the unemployment figures than it is about FE colleges. improving learning. Funding for apprenticeships has been protected, so that the number of apprenticeships Adult learning is at the heart of bridging the skills for those aged 24 and above has increased, but arguably gap, and FE colleges are perfectly placed to deliver in a it has increased far too quickly and at the expense of skills shortage. They are experts in the area. Following good outcomes, quality and younger apprentices. All years of investment by the previous Government, many that is forcing FE colleges to subsidise free training for have state-of-the-art facilities, are widely respected by adult apprenticeships at the expense of younger students. local employers and are at the centre of their communities. Even with all that, employers are still not prepared to We need to maintain that, stop cutting the heart out of deliver on their responsibilities. The Government have our adult learning and FE systems and recognise their transferred £340 million to the employer ownership of role in our recovery. skills pilots up to 2015-16, but so far only 20,000 students have started a training course through those pilots. 3.4 pm We have already heard about FE loans, so I do not intend to say very much more about that, except to Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): It is a delight bring Members’ attention to the recent research to participate in this debate under your chairmanship, commissioned by the Association of Colleges, which Mr Robertson. I join in the congratulations to my hon. highlights that the number of students on advanced and Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch high-level courses that now require a loan, but did not (Meg Hillier) on securing this debate. I thought she set in the previous year, has declined by 20%. It has gone the context extremely well. By focusing on one particular from 107,200 students in 2012-13 to 84,300 in 2013-14. aspect of the funding problems faced by Sheffield college, I hope not to take up too much time. I will try to In addition to the cuts imposed directly on FE colleges illustrate or further illuminate her narrative by outlining budgets by BIS, the Department for Education has also how some of the decisions are forcing counter-productive cut funding for students aged 18 and above. Although choices on the college. They are counter-productive for that is operational across the educational sector—it students, for the local economy and for the Government’s affects schools, special schools, sixth forms and so on—the objectives in so many areas. most vulnerable students will be hardest hit, and most of them will be in the FE sector. Students over 18 on Sheffield college is a strong institution. It is well courses funded by the Department for Education are regarded and well rated by Ofsted. It has strong managerial most likely, as we heard, to have missed periods of leadership and a chair of governors who is the chief education, or have special educational needs, or be executive of the local chamber of commerce. The college those who just need an additional year; a little more is focused on the needs of students, the local economy time to get the GCSEs that their peers were able to and employers in the area. It addresses those needs achieve at school. They are the young people closest to through direct provision and by contracting the delivery being NEET, and the evidence shows that such students of some courses out to businesses and, as I will highlight, will primarily be in the FE and adult learning sectors. social enterprises and third sector organisations, which When I questioned the former Secretary of State for are particularly adept at reaching some of the more Education, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath vulnerable and harder-to-reach sections of the community. (Michael Gove), he said that he regretted the decision to The hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) illustrated cut 18-plus funding, but that it was the best worst the challenges that many colleges face in addressing option. The former Secretary of State left office with a funding issues. Like the examples he gave, Sheffield 121WH Adult Learning3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 122WH

[Paul Blomfield] Adult learning has long been a passport to fulfilment. It helps raise aspirations and transforms lives. I recognise college has been thoughtful, flexible and innovative in the magnificent work of all those engaged in adult trying to address those challenges, but it has lost almost learning and all the teachers, support staff and managers £1.6 million this year from its adult learner responsive who help deliver it. They are wonderful people making funding. One way in which the college has been forced a real difference to the lives of others, often working in to respond to that substantial loss of funding is by partnership with employers. I have welcomed winners retrenching and ending its contracts with providers that of the Keith Fletcher memorial access awards to Parliament make an important contribution to adult learning. every year since I was elected. It has been a real pleasure to One particular area that has felt the impact is the recognise their achievement, and it has been wonderful teaching of community-based English for speakers of to welcome access students from North Lindsey college other languages. Learn for Life Enterprise is a social to this place each year as part of their course. enterprise and one of a number of providers to Sheffield By and large, this and the previous Government’s college. I know it well. I have spent time with it and seen record on apprenticeships has been positive. There have its excellent work within the community, giving adult been many examples of excellent practice in my learners the opportunity to gain confidence and English constituency, including the outstanding Tata apprenticeships language skills, and through that to begin to engage and the work that North Lindsey college has done effectively and productively in the local economy. Not with North Lincolnshire council. The spotlight on only are the courses under threat, but these enterprises apprenticeships has improved the quality of the brand, are being put at a tipping point where they might go and that is to be applauded. However, just as we had under. The cuts have an extra leverage—a disproportionate proper concerns about short Train to Gain courses impact—on the role that Learn for Life Enterprise being branded “apprenticeships”, the time is now right plays. Similarly affected will be the work of the Yemeni to ask hard questions about how to further improve Community Association in Sheffield, which engages apprenticeships’ quality, so that they best serve the with its community effectively in one of the most deprived interests of employers, learners and the state. The number areas of the city, developing those language skills and of 24-plus apprenticeships has risen rapidly, largely that confidence and engaging people in the economy. through Government funding. It is important to be All that negative impact is being forced on the college rigorous in asking whether employers are discharging through the Skills Funding Agency by a Government their obligations to these learners simply by paying who rightly stress the importance of learning and speaking them the minimum wage. Should employers contribute English as an entry route into effective engagement with more to ensure that certain apprenticeships do not end the economy, as well as its importance for community up as a significant Government subsidy for large, profitable cohesion and wider integration. I have written to the companies? Skills Funding Agency, asking for the allocation to Conversely, the change in funding when an apprentice Sheffield college to be reviewed, to give the college a turns 19 might act as an unhelpful disincentive for small little more space to continue its important provision or, employers to take them on. As a result of 45 local as a fall-back, for Learn for Life Enterprise and the employers writing to me, I visited Side by Side in Hull YemeniCommunity Association to secure direct funding. to hear for myself the very real concerns employers have The SFA has simply told me that its hands are tied, about the changes the Government are pursuing to because the cuts, devastating as they are, simply reflect route apprenticeship funding through employers. That the overall 8.5% reduction in the adult skills budget. On is not what businesses want. We have an opportunity direct provision, it said that because the providers are so with a new Minister. I hope he will listen carefully to small, they fall below the level at which they could what employers are saying about putting wholesale effectively contract directly. That is a double whammy funding for apprenticeships through pay-as-you-earn. for this provision. Does the Minister think this is a wise As the shadow Minister, my right hon. Friend the saving? Does limiting opportunities for people to develop Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), has their language skills fit in with the Government’s said, this could turn out to be a disaster. Careful evaluation stated intention to get more effective integration and of how the package of support for learners and employers to get more people into work, or does he agree with me is performing would be highly valuable in informing that reducing opportunities for people to gain the how to improve further the quality of the apprenticeship communication skills and wider skills necessary to engage product. with the economy is a false economy? Not only is it affecting them as individuals and our local economy, The debate is an opportunity to consider how to but—for a Government that has cracked on quite a lot reshape post-18 learning for the future. We need to about the big society—it is fundamentally undermining develop stronger alternatives to full-time degree study, third-sector organisations, which make a big contribution. with clear technical and vocational pathways through I look forward to his response. FE colleges. The Government could actively consider ideas from the Association of Colleges and National Institute of Adult Continuing Education to create secure 3.10 pm adult learning accounts, into which the individual, the employer and the Government could contribute. Such Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): As always, it is a accounts could be put in place for all adult learners, pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. whatever pathway they choose to take, and thereby I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney bring greater parity between academic and vocational South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) on securing this routes. Another thing Government could do, which important and timely debate, and the way she set out ought to be relatively easy, is to provide secure, three-year her case so clearly. budgets for colleges to give greater planning certainty 123WH Adult Learning3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 124WH to institutions. That would help colleges to make decisions I did not have great A-levels so I was fortunate to get early and maximise not only the value for every pound that. It gave me a huge chance to get into engineering they spend, but the interests of their adult learners. and follow through. I certainly hope that many others The best FE colleges and training providers have the will now have the same opportunity, because it offers a connections and expertise to bring the world of work last chance. and education together in a way that benefits all partners. There are currently some serious challenges in One of the most challenging areas is in turning round Birmingham, such as high levels of unemployment, the life chances of the long-term unemployed. I commend which, in some of the inner-city areas, are three times the work that North Lindsey college has done with the national average. These colleges and further education Jobcentre Plus to give unemployed people the skills to institutions support unemployed people. People over succeed and get them into employment. I also echo my the age of 19 are still finding it difficult to find employment. hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and We need to look at that. In my constituency, the areas Shoreditch, who urged the Minister to look at the ways of Lozells and Handsworth have significantly high the Department for Work and Pensions can work more unemployment. We need to see what we can do to creatively, to the benefit of local communities, and not support those people. apply rules that anyone with any common sense can see We have a good college that is willing to look at that. act as a barrier to allowing people to develop. I share with the shadow Minister, my right hon. Friend Much has already been said about the immense impact the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), of funding cuts on this sector. I will say a few things responsibility for South & City college, which crosses about the 17.5% cut in funding for 18-year-olds. I know our constituencies. It is doing a tremendous amount of from personal experience as a former college principal work, particularly with training in its construction, that these students have often struggled to reach the motor vehicle and electrical training centres, and with expected level by the age of 18. They can ultimately other vocational training. It is doing an absolutely achieve success, but only with appropriate study support, fantastic job to get some of those people in areas of personal mentoring and so on. These are the highest-risk high unemployment into jobs. students and we are now making them the highest-cost We have good manufacturing companies that need students as well. This could create perverse incentives support, but the current arrangement for over-24s needing and results. loans for level 3 courses prevents a lot of people already Let me give a few North Lindsey college examples to in employment from training. That is particularly the illustrate these students’ success. Oliver joined a preparation case for those aged over 24 who have managed to get a for employment painting and decorating course last job and who, because technology and practices move year. He started with no qualifications, a history of on, want to progress or maintain themselves in their behavioural problems and poor school attendance. work. They want to be able to develop in that way and Ultimately, he achieved qualifications for the first time find it difficult when they are presented with the requirement in his life. He has now opened and is running his own to get further qualifications for which they must take shop. He also wants to continue his education. out loans. Those are the most studious ones, because Kirsty started at a care home as a volunteer on work they want to make a difference. I see that in my constituency, experience from Jobcentre Plus. She was initially very where young people have started out from the local shy and negative about education. She suffered from jobcentre and have progressed to management. I pay dyslexia and had low self-esteem. She now has qualifications tribute to them, because they are prepared to give their for the first time and is the face of her company, own time for further training. appearing on its website. She has made a promotional There are world leaders in advanced manufacturing video to support future staff. in my constituency. I appreciate their work, because I After little success at school, Lima enrolled on a level am an engineer. Truflo is the world leader in submarine 1 caring for children course in 2009. She has since done valves and at the moment is probably the only company level 2, level 3 and level 4 courses at the college and is for hull valves for submarines and surface ships. It does training to be a teacher. Those are the sort of successes a fantastic job. It was an honour for me to take my hon. FE colleges can deliver. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Here is an opportunity, as the general election approaches, Seabeck), the shadow Minister for Defence, around the for all political parties to demonstrate that adult learning site about 10 days ago; it was fantastic to show off some is at the heart of the opportunity to change our society of the good work being done, and the apprenticeships for the better. Adult learning needs to be properly there. Other companies include TRW—the skeleton funded in a stable environment to allow colleges to that came out of the old Lucas works. It does fantastic deliver effectively for their communities, learners and work to develop technology, but we need support for business. the 19-year-olds and the over-24-year-olds, so that that can continue. We want to reduce the current high employment levels. 3.17 pm Dana is another very good and reputable engineering Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab): manufacturing company in my constituency and I want I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South to keep it there and bring more advanced manufacturing and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) for securing this important to the area. McGeoch is just over the road in Ladywood, debate. and I was privileged to visit it with my hon. Friend the By and large, FE has always been seen as the poorer shadow Defence Minister. It does a huge amount of partner of other forms of education, predominantly fantastic work with ceramics, but it needs to do some because people like me managed to come through it. development; the obstacles it encounters include getting I managed to get an apprenticeship when I left school; apprentices to follow through with the huge amount of 125WH Adult Learning3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 126WH

[Mr Khalid Mahmood] at evening classes—subjects that perhaps they did not have a chance to do at school. They might not have had manufacturing it is doing. It provides components for any academic qualifications, but their eyes would be satellites for NASA. It is fantastic to have that happening opened and they would see life with more possibilities in Birmingham. because of what they studied at evening class. The EEF apprenticeship centre in the city takes on In those days, certainly in Luton, we had better 300 apprentices from local employers, and some of the provision than now. The colleges and schools in Luton companies that I have mentioned use people from there. are excellent, but in those days we had a technical It has not had a penny of funding; it has done that college with a language laboratory where people could through contributions from engineering employers in learn a variety of languages, including even Swedish. We its patch. I should be happy to take the Minister around had a further education college with all sorts of engineering it, if he wants to come and look at the great work that it courses that people could do for fun, as well as those is doing. I hope he will take the offer up. As I said related to work. There was a range of subjects. before, South & City college is doing a fantastic job in I saw friends transformed by the experience of going my constituency. Wilmott Dixon also does a lot of work to an evening class for a modest fee. They would sign with apprenticeships in construction and housing, such up, having had no real academic experience, and would as electrical stuff. It is also now doing training for the come out with an A-level. A friend of mine did A-level installation of solar panels. Again, that is a private government and politics and got a grade B, and her life scheme that it has taken on without any funding. was transformed. She was a single parent and could not I go along with my right hon. Friend the Member for afford expensive education, but she did an evening class. Birmingham, Hodge Hill, the shadow spokesman, over Subsequently—it was not directly related—she became, the bid for an HS2 maintenance depot in Birmingham. and eventually retired as, a lecturer in further education. We have the colleges and training places, and I hope That resulted from the leap forward she made by doing that that will be passed on in relation to the bid that he an A-level. has made, which I fully support. A key issue is funding for 19-year-olds and those Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): aged 24-plus. One of the key requests from South & As to the transformational effect that adult learning can City college is for provision for English for speakers of have, does the hon. Gentleman agree that for many other languages. Demand is currently twice what it is people, particularly in deprived communities on large providing. If we are to reduce the unemployment rate of working-class estates, such opportunities open doors? If three times the national average in inner city areas, we they do not get that opportunity, the door is closed for a need an appropriate supply of training, so that the generation, because in many cases the fathers and college can make a start with those people. People are grandparents of those people were also unemployed. eager and knocking on the college’s door, wanting to take part. They are not hanging back. We need to deal Kelvin Hopkins: That is a valid point. During my time with that, to get people into employment. There is a teaching in further education in the 1970s I not only huge amount of interest. Many community and voluntary took evening classes but taught day-release students for organisations want to provide support, but they cannot what was called liberal studies. That is nothing to do because of funding cuts. I urge the Minister to review with Liberalism with a capital L, of course. I saw young the situation and think about how we can start to people whose view of the world might be very narrow rejuvenate some of our inner cities. suddenly opening up to the possibilities. They started to There are many contributory issues outside the further understand politics, believe it or not, and a range of education debate; if people—particularly young people—are other subjects that I used to talk about in those classes. not in employment, that makes work for idle hands. I The experience was enhancing and enriching for them. urge the Minister to think about those things, and It made their lives different. They went away thinking, about the comments of my hon. Friends, which I think “I have had my eyes opened to new possibilities in life were all valid. Further education is a huge sector, and a that I never thought I would have.” fantastic one for people who need its vital support. I Initially, sometimes, there was a bit of hostility, because urge the Minister to continue to support it, and to fund of resentment at “these clever people coming and talking it properly. about subjects I know nothing about”; it took time. I had one experience of a class that insisted at the end of 3.25 pm term on dragging me to the pub to buy me a pint, because they enjoyed their time with me so much. I Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): It is a pleasure think that was the biggest compliment I was paid. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson, as it Working-class young men, who were particularly alienated was to hear the excellent speech of my hon. Friend the from education, were changed by having a bit of a good Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), experience, and I am glad I made a contribution. and all the speeches that have been made. All the hon. I was for 10 years co-chair of the all-party group on Members who have spoken made positive and useful further education, skills and lifelong learning. I emphasise comments and I hope that the Minister will pay attention the term “lifelong learning”, which is not just about to them. getting on a course to get a job; it is about one’s whole The focus so far has been on employment-related life. One can go on studying all one’s life—most of us learning, but the title of the debate is adult learning, do, in one way or another—but some people need the which I think goes beyond that. I had experience of opportunity to have people who know things talking to teaching in further education in the 1970s and I know them in a friendly way at an evening or day-release the sheer joy of adults coming back to study—particularly class, to open their eyes to the possibilities of the world. 127WH Adult Learning3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 128WH

I had those experiences, but something really disappoints I were at the Home Office, has now added 100 different me now. Luton has a wonderful sixth-form college, of roles to the shortage occupation list. As a result, under which I have been a governor for 21 years. I am now the this Government, we have imported 282,000 workers vice-chair of governors, and the college has a brand-new because their skills could not be found at home. In a building and superb teachers, but it is unable to put on recent report, Mike Wright, the chief executive of Jaguar evening classes because funding for adult education in Land Rover, said: sixth-form colleges has been cut and it receives statutory “We must double the number of engineering apprentices qualifying funding for 18-year-olds and below only. at advanced level…by 2020.” The teachers want to teach adults, and adults want to Lord Adonis has said that skills are be taught by them. The fabulous building is unused and “the single biggest impediment to economic growth.” empty in the evenings, but it should and could be used Report after report says the same thing: we have a skills for education in this conurbation of perhaps a third of crisis in Britain that is holding the country back. a million people. If someone wants to study a European language, for example, they cannot do that in-class in The impact on productivity in this country has been Luton anymore. The possibilities exist, but such areas devastating. We used to have a phrase for that in public need specific funding. We cannot just say to sixth-form debate—the British disease. A crisis of productivity colleges, “Get on with it. Put on an evening class if you means that we do not produce as much in this country want, but you’ll get no more money.” It would not as the rest of the world produces. Today, the productivity happen, because teachers need to be paid and perhaps gap is 21% against the G7, meaning that what the rest of more teachers would be required. the G7 finishes producing on a Thursday night takes us until the end of Friday to complete. There will be no From my experience, teachers enjoy the variety of escape from an economy of low wages unless we increase teaching adults as well as youngsters. Adults often have productivity. As the Royal Society puts it: a positive effect on classes, because—I am trying to be polite about young people—they are more likely to “Unless we get smarter, we will get poorer.” behave themselves and to be positive about education. As we have heard this afternoon, the problem is not They can also actually have a maturing effect on younger just one of productivity, but one of poverty. Before the students, so mixed classes can be a good thing. We are summer, we published a big report in Birmingham preventing potentially millions of people from studying about child poverty, which has led to a 40% spike in the things that they would like to learn simply because we number of children presenting in A and E units having will not fund non-statutory adult learning. tried to take their own lives. The majority of children in I hope that when the Labour party forms a Government poverty in Birmingham are in families where people are in a few months’ time, they will hear this message and working. How do we raise family living standards in a start to rebuild the kind of evening classes that we used great city such as Birmingham? There is only one way: to have when I taught in the 1970s. I hope that millions raising productivity and therefore raising skill levels. We more people will be able to study not only for work, but have heard this afternoon about a £958 million cut in also to enrich their lives and to enjoy the simple pleasure the adult skills budget. Overall, taking into account of knowing things. other cuts in capital, but also the injection of money in from 24-plus loans, nearly £900 million has been taken out of adult skills over this Parliament. The impact is John Robertson (in the Chair): Before I call the Front- that fewer adults are enrolling in skills courses. Bench spokesmen, I want to thank all speakers for sticking to the time limit. Kelvin Hopkins: My right hon. Friend is making an excellent speech about the importance and lack of skills 3.31 pm and opportunities. The reality is that we are still importing Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): It some 15,000 graduate engineers every year to work in is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, an industry that even now is too small. Manufacturing Mr Robertson. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member in this country is half the size as a proportion of GDP for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) on than that of Germany, and yet we still cannot find securing the debate. She has always been a fighter for enough engineers from among our own people. Something her constituency and for Hackney college, and she is wrong and I hope he addresses it. reminded us this afternoon of why we need to spend more time debating this subject, for which we are grateful. Mr Byrne: I certainly will. I want to draw out a couple of remarks from today’s Money is tight, and I noticed that the former Member debate and to sharpen the points of some of the questions for Clacton—I am not sure whether he is still the that my colleagues have asked the Minister, but I will Minister’s hon. Friend—wrote on his blog earlier this start by discussing the skills crisis that so many businesses week that public sector net debt has increased and is up and down the country are now confronting. Report now £400 billion higher than the debt that the Labour after report has been put before us over the past two or Government left. He said that this Government have three years, all basically saying the same thing: there is a now put on more debt in five years than the Labour skills crisis in Britain that is holding back growth, Government did in 13 years. destroying productivity and keeping people trapped in We all know that money is tight, but there are three the cost of living crisis that has bedevilled this Parliament. things to which the Government could turn their mind KPMG reports that a third of manufacturers would to quickly. The first thing must be integration with the like to reshore work back to this country, but cannot do Department for Work and Pensions, which means bringing so due to a lack of skills. The Migration Advisory together ESOL budgets in a completely new way. As my Committee, which was set up when my hon. Friend and hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr 129WH Adult Learning3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 130WH

[Mr Byrne] and 0% access to the Student Loans Company. That means a broken bridge between the funding system that (Mr Mahmood) made clear, the Skills Funding Agency works up to the age of 18 and the one that then kicks in has taken away well over £1 million in ESOL provision at the age of 24. There is no clear escalator through that the DWP has had to put back in. It is heartbreaking the skills system. Some funding for level 4 and above for us to meet mums who are desperate to go back to is offered by the Skills Funding Agency, but only for a work but do not have a strong enough grasp of English. higher apprenticeship. The problem is that, out of They want to do well by their families, but they cannot. 200 apprenticeship frameworks, only 14 go up to level 4. Proposals from Lord Heseltine and Lord Adonis radically Furthermore, people need a degree to understand the to devolve skills funding are on the table and would system. Why is that a problem? It is a problem because, allow us to put together the Work programme and skills as the OECD cited in its seminal report on skills in budgets in a new way, so that we can skill people up to England back in 2013: do the jobs that are available. I represent a constituency “the weak articulation between level 4 and 6 programmes and a mile away from the expanding Jaguar Land Rover university bachelor programmes is a serious problem”. plant in Castle Bromwich, but it has the highest youth There is a broken bridge, and a radical rethink is unemployment in the country, which is prima facie needed. evidence that the skills system is not working. We should listen to Lord Heseltine and Lord Adonis and think On behalf of the Labour party, the shadow Secretary radically about how to devolve skills funding so that the of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for DWP and skills budgets can be joined up in a new way. Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), and I have set out a different approach—a “gold standard” route for The second point, as made eloquently in a forensic vocational education, so that we begin to reform the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for North West school system, the further education system and the Durham (Pat Glass), and underlined by my hon. Friend university system. We believe that everyone should be the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr, is that we doing some vocational education from the age of 14. must raise our game on skills and radically increase the We believe that there should be a new gold-standard number of higher apprenticeships. If we want to tilt our technical baccalaureate with compulsory English and economy decisively towards those high-value engineering maths up to the age of 18. We believe that the priority and science-based industries that are the key to the for expanding the higher education system should be bigger-knowledge economy, we must increase the number the creation of technical degrees, so that people can of higher apprenticeships. Just 2% of apprentices go on study while they are still working. We floated the idea to study higher level skills, which is appalling and needs over the summer that a new institutional partnership to increase. Across the country, however, there is a between further education colleges and universities is profound lack of clarity about how the Government’s needed, along the lines of the American community new proposed money will actually be distributed. That college programme. lack of clarity is unacceptable and the Minister will Those new technical universities should have partnerships want to work that out quickly. with universities with world-class engineering and science There is wide support to increase employer ownership facilities, perhaps as part of new university enterprise of skills as one way of increasing the number of zones up and down the country. That could be one of apprenticeships and higher level apprenticeships, but in the ways in which we make the decisive shift that was an economy in which small and medium-sized enterprises explained by my hon. Friend the Member for North are creating jobs three or four times faster than big West Durham. We have got to rebalance our economy, business, the new funding system must work for SMEs. and rebalancing our skills system has got to be part All over Britain, SMEs are saying that putting in all the of it. money through the tax system will not work. That We have had an impassioned debate. Particularly decision is in the Minister’s red box and I hope he will welcome was the emphasis of my hon. Friends the be able to tell us whether he is planning to go wholesale Members for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) and for and introduce the plan in the autumn, as originally Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) not only on the sheer proposed, or whether to listen to the voices of 4 million economic importance of further and higher education or 5 million small businesses across the country that are and of adult learning, but on the life-changing power of asking him to think again. such investment. This country faces a productivity crisis The third thing that the Minister was left with by his and a poverty crisis, so we must leave the Chamber predecessors, as underlined by my hon. Friends the hearing the note sounded by my hon. Friend the Member Members for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and for Stretford for Hackney South and Shoreditch sounded—she said and Urmston (Kate Green), is the strategic problem that there is poverty, but no poverty of ambition—as with adult skills. Big cuts to further education, a very well as leaving with a determination to do something marketised higher education system and a huge explosion about it. in the private sector college system have unleashed a The Minister is a thinking member of his party and series of competitive pressures in the further and higher has a track record of thinking through complicated education system. As a result, system collaboration is issues. He is someone with a conscience and he cares incredibly difficult. That problem is compounded by a profoundly about increasing social mobility in this country. broken bridge between funding for 18-year-olds and He is blessed by simply having been appointed, with funding for those over the age of 24. that great mind of his, to one of the most fantastic jobs My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe underlined in the Government. We look forward to his brief and the appalling impact of big cuts in further education his work with a heightened sense of anticipation. We funding for those at 18, but between the ages of 18 also look forward to what he has to say to us this and 24 there is only 50% funding towards tuition costs afternoon. 131WH Adult Learning3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 132WH

3.44 pm John Robertson (in the Chair): Order.MayIdrawus back to the debate? The Minister for Skills, Enterprise and Equalities (Nick Boles): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Nick Boles: The other awkward truth is that a lot of Mr Robertson. It is also a pleasure, and an unfamiliar the spending from the adult skills budget was, frankly, one, for me to be in a Westminster Hall debate—although on a series of qualifications that were a fraud on those we are not actually in Westminster Hall—in which I am who were duped into taking them. A whole bunch of not facing a crowd of angry Back Benchers from my the qualifications that were funded did not prepare own party; they are much less gentle in their attacks people for work, enrich their CVs, enable them to than Labour party Members have proved to be today. command better jobs or add to the productivity that, as That was my experience as planning Minister, and an the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill so uncomfortable one it often was. It is reassuring to find rightly said, everyone needs. It was therefore right to do myself in the traditional position of mainly facing criticism, what we did, which was to focus the system of qualifications as well as inquiry and constructive suggestion, from the down and to ensure that the funding goes to produce Opposition. I am, however, also grateful to my hon. qualifications that will actually help people. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) for his contribution. Mr Byrne: May I draw the Minister back to the future, rather than to the past? In the autumn statement We have covered a lot of ground today. I want to be last year, the Chancellor talked about one of the most clear that almost everyone who has contributed to the important adult qualifications available in this country, debate knows more about the area than I do. I am still which is degree places. He said that degree places would myself an adult learner, and a rather slow one at that, so be uncapped and he set out, conservatively, the cost of if I do not have the detailed technical grasp to answer about £1.9 billion, which was to be financed by selling all the questions, I apologise. I am happy to have further off student loan debt. discussion and correspondence with any Members who feel that I have not adequately answered their questions. On 20 July the Minister’s boss, the Secretary of State, said that he and the Deputy Prime Minister had decided While setting the context, I am afraid—I hope that that the sale of student loan debt would not now go the shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for ahead. Will the Minister confirm whether the expansion Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), will forgive me—that will still go ahead and, if so, where on earth the money I must remind the House of a few awkward truths. will come from? Clearly, there has of course been a substantial cut in the adult skills budget; no one is denying that or pretending Nick Boles: Needless to say, not being the Minister otherwise. As the author of a notorious note, which I responsible for higher education and certainly not being will forbear to repeat the few words of, no one knows my boss, the Secretary of State or indeed the Prime better than the right hon. Gentleman the financial Minister, I can do no such thing. We are talking about environment that we inherited when we came into the adult skills budget and that is what I will return to. government. I also suspect that, had his party stayed in The right hon. Gentleman asked me to focus on the government after the election, no one would have been future and I am happy to do that. The position we are in more ferocious than him in making the case for protecting now is not as bleak as some hon. Members have tried to that part of the education system that every child must paint it. Yes, we have a dire skills shortage in this go through, and which is critical to every education— country, but I remind hon. Members that all the young whether academic, technical, vocational or professional. people who are not currently equipped to get the jobs That is, of course, the schools system. That is what the that have been created and that hon. Members listed Government have done. It has been difficult and painful were educated under a Labour Government. All of and it has involved sacrifices in other areas, one of them went through primary and secondary school under which has been in the adult skills budget. that Labour Government, so if they have left the school The second awkward truth that we all need to system ill-prepared for the jobs of the modern economy, acknowledge is that much of the spending in the adult let us share the responsibility for that lack and together skills budget— work out how to fill the gap. Pat Glass: Will the Minister give way? There is more agreement about the future than there will ever be about the past, and I will come on to the key Nick Boles: Iamhappyto. elements of that. Specific questions were raised, however, and I want to make sure that I address them before I Pat Glass: I want to remind the Minister of another run out of time. The hon. Member for Stretford and awkward truth: the £1 billion overspend on the academies Urmston (Kate Green) made an interesting speech, in and free schools budget. The Government had priorities which she specifically challenged me to take up with the and they made decisions—they chose to put money into DWP the question—[Interruption.] Was it the hon. new and experimental areas, while making cuts that Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier)? affected the most vulnerable children in our society. I am sorry, I cannot remember. I was asked to take up Nick Boles: Let us put to bed the ridiculous shibboleth the issue of jobcentres being inflexible about courses that somehow free schools are an experiment. Free and requiring people to leave them. I am aware of the schools are, basically, new academies; they are exactly issue broadly but not in detail, and I will be happy to the same as academies. Tell the children at free schools takeitup. that their schools are somehow different or experimental The hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr and that the money spent on them, that £1 billion, is not (Mr Mahmood), who is no longer in his place, invited spent on the education of the children of Britain. I me to visit an apprenticeship centre run by the EEF. think that they would give the hon. Lady the flea in her Will somebody tell him afterwards that I will be happy ear that she so richly deserves— to do so if I can, as it sounds like an interesting venture? 133WH Adult Learning3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Adult Learning 134WH

[Nick Boles] just backfilling what employers would do anyway and giving money to businesses without them adding more I am happy to take up any issues that individual hon. to adult skills education? Members have with particular colleges and funding situations. The hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Nick Boles: What this Government do not do—we do Blomfield), for example, raised some issues about a not believe in it—is just push money out of the door. specific college, and I would be happy to take those up. That is what the previous Government did, which is Now I come to the actual question from the hon. why we inherited a deficit on the scale that we did. We Member for Stretford and Urmston. She asked about believe in inviting people to come forward with bids and funding of HNDs and HNCs. If I may, I will get back come up with quite experimental ideas—the scheme is to her with more specific detail on that. She also asked unashamedly a pilot—and then checking whether those specifically about extending the internship model to ideas are high quality and are adding value, and whether older adults. That is an interesting idea, but not one in the money is going to be put to good use. If we do not which I am sufficiently well versed to give a response end up spending all of the money mentioned, I will be now. I will be happy to meet her to discuss the issue and the first to say that we did not do so because we did not see whether we can do more. have bids that were good enough and were going to deliver enough impact. That is the responsible way to Now, to the future, and how we improve the productivity deal with taxpayers’ money and money borrowed from of people in this country so that they can secure the future taxpayers, not the approach of the previous fantastic jobs being created—I hope we will all acknowledge Government. this—in record numbers in this economy, to an extent that no other European country seems to be able to To return—it seems rather optimistic now—to areas match at the moment. For the Government—we make where we perhaps agree, we need to have more higher no apologies for this—the most important policy to apprenticeships. We also agree that although the increase ensure that improvement is the policy on apprenticeships. in the number of adults doing apprenticeships is welcome, That is why, even with a declining skills budget, we have we should not allow that to be at the cost of 16 to ensured that the funding of apprenticeships is maintained 18-year-olds doing them. We therefore need to ensure and have been able to secure a dramatic increase in the that the offer is there and stands for everybody. number of people taking apprenticeships. The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin)and a That is not at all to say that we are in any way number of others asked me about the changes in the satisfied with the position we are in. We also recognise, funding of apprenticeships under the new trailblazer for instance, the very low number of higher apprenticeships standards. All I can say at this stage is that, first, I am as a proportion of the total and want to expand those, looking at the matter extremely closely, and, secondly, but without in any sense diminishing the lower level before coming anywhere near politics—before coming apprenticeships. Those are often the ones that young into the policy world, let alone to Parliament—I spent people who leave school without qualifications are going 10 years running a business that employed 150 people in to be able to access first; we are not necessarily saying, the manufacture of paint brushes and rollers. I have either, that they should not move on to a higher lived and breathed—and wept—the experience of running apprenticeship in due course. a small business; I am not going to be a Minister who puts burdens on small or medium-sized enterprises that persuade them not to do what we want them to—provide Mr Byrne: In that case, the Minister will want the more high-quality, long-term, demanding apprenticeships maximum value for money from the programme that he that improve the skills of the people of Britain. is responsible for. A total of £340 million has been earmarked for the employer ownership pilot for There were also a lot of questions about adult learning apprenticeships, but the latest figures show that only and its funding. It is clear that there have been some 20,000 new apprenticeships have been provided. That is very difficult decisions in that area, which have caused a unit cost of about £17,000. Will he explain whether he difficulties for some institutions and further education thinks that is value for money and what he is doing to colleges, and, as we heard from the hon. Member for drive up numbers for that programme? Sheffield Central, for some of the charities and social enterprises that work with FE colleges. Those decisions have also perhaps interrupted the availability of some Nick Boles: The right hon. Gentleman is too good a provision, as the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin numbers man not to recognise the trick he has just Hopkins) so eloquently described. We have had to make played, which is to take the total budget as his denominator sacrifices, and it may be that some are never undone and use only the number of starts achieved so far as the because of the fiscal situation we face as a country and figure that he is declaring it against. If he looked at the the priorities we have to put in place. But we are going amount of money that has been drawn down from the to look at the experience of advanced learner loans and pilot, he would see that his denominator is a very much then ask ourselves a series of tough questions about smaller figure and that dividing that three-hundred-and- how much further it is right to go to align what is whatever million by 20,000 does not present an entirely available for adult learners who are not going into accurate picture. universities with what is available for those who do. We have had one little reassuring set of data. Wild Meg Hillier: On that point, £340 million has been and gloomy predictions were made about the effect of allocated and has not been drawn down at the right rate. fees and loans on the participation of people from a What is going wrong, what is the Minister doing to range of different backgrounds, including poorer ones, check on what is happening and how on earth is the in universities. Those predictions have not come about. situation being monitored to make sure that it is not Similarly, we have no evidence on advanced learner 135WH Adult Learning 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 136WH loans of any dramatic effect on or change in the profile Waste Management Sites (Fires) of those who participate in adult learning. We will be looking at making sure the opportunities are available. They may need to be funded differently from how they 4.12 pm were in the past, but it is right to see whether we can make sure they are available for all in the future. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): It is a pleasure to [Interruption.] serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson, and I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak today. 3.59 pm The issue I want to raise is that of fires at waste Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. management sites. This is a problem that literally stinks to high heaven. Fires at waste management sites can have a far-reaching impact, way beyond a 999 call and a few hours’ attendance by the local fire crew and their appliance. They can come with a very hefty financial cost. They often demand a multi-agency response and, worryingly, the resulting fall-out can blight communities. Today, I want to tell you about a fire at the waste management site in the village of Nantyglo, in my constituency that burned for 10 days in January 2013. A small mountain of waste—more than 200 tonnes worth— caught aflame. The smoke billowing from the fire made the lives of the residents in the nearby streets a misery. It clogged the air, seeped into washing hanging on the line, and filled homes and cars with a noxious smell. One of the neighbours with asthma and emphysema could not go out of the house at all for the whole time of the fire. Such waste sites store everything from plastic containers and solvent-based paints to oily rags and aerosol cans, and the burning of chemicals trapped people in their own home. The resident with respiratory illnesses loves the area and keeps her home clean and tidy, but now she feels that she will have to move out if there is a prospect of future fires. That is not right. When home for the long weekend, I caught sight of a big smoke cloud over Nantyglo from my kitchen window, and it was held there for 10 days by the many rainclouds above. The air was acrid, and clearly, the matter needed urgent attention. After trying to understand who was co-ordinating matters, I got stuck in and called a multi-agency meeting to try and take things forward. Everybody eventually pulled together. Natural Resources Wales had stationed a staff member by the site to oversee and co-ordinate. The fire service went back and forth to keep a lid on the still smouldering fire and Public Health Wales set in place air quality measuring kit. It was a very small, enclosed site, but fair do’s, Blaenau Gwent council helped a lot by making available some nearby land to shift hundreds of tonnes of waste on to. That enabled the eventual control of the fire. Months later, the bill for the operation was estimated to reach £70,000. That is just one example of the damage and demands on public services, as well as the insurance industry, that such fires can cause, and it is one of many.

Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the subject, as there was a fire lasting six months in a pile of carpet waste in my constituency. He mentioned insurance and cost. In the case of my constituency, the operating firm is in liquidation. Ought there not to be some system of insurance or bonds that ensures that if there is nobody left to pay, there is some money in the bank to deal with the terrible consequences that our constituents have to face? 137WH Waste Management Sites (Fires)3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Waste Management Sites (Fires) 138WH

Nick Smith: The right hon. Gentleman makes a very sites and that one in every 18 private sites suffered a fire powerful point, not least because I understand that compared with one in 110 local authority-run sites. It is some bits of the insurance sector are pulling out of this a similar story in Wales, with only three of the 61 fires industry because the premiums are not covering their being at local authority sites. costs. This is a big industry and it is fairly complex, I know, The incident in Nantyglo is, it seems, one of many. A but it is important to understand whether the two types total of 600 fires occurred at waste management sites in of site are doing similar work or are subject to the same England between 2012 and 2013, with 61 additional regulations and standards. How are they monitored? fires occurring in Wales. Despite waste management Why are there such good records for publicly organised sites being monitored and requiring licences, we are sites compared with private ones? It would be interesting getting nearly one fire a day across England and Wales. if the Minister could tell us more. While I was putting this speech together, firefighters In addition, looking through the lists of fires supplied in Swindon were hoping finally to get on top of a waste by Natural Resources Wales and the Environment Agency, site fire that has been burning away for a month. There, we see that there are countless instances of fires occurring 3,000 tonnes of waste have had to be moved so that multiple times in the same location. A quick glance firefighters can tackle the fire effectively. The bill for the through the 61 entries in the NRW records alone is entire operation is expected to be in the region of illuminating. There were three reports for one Port £400,000, with concerns that it may be the taxpayer Talbot site in just three weeks. There were three incidents who shoulders the burden of that cost. at a Dowlais Top site in Merthyr in five months. If a small number of sites are responsible for a large percentage I wanted to understand the financial impact of these of fires, action needs to be taken. fires fully, so I logged freedom of information requests with fire services up and down the country. I asked how My concerns are mirrored by those of the Fire Futures many fires they have dealt with and the cost of dealing Forum, which attempted to tackle these problems last with them. It became immediately apparent that there is November. Chaired by the Chief Fire Officers Association, not a standardised scale for costing these measures. it was a round-table event aimed at understanding the Each service had its own way of categorising such fires, issues that arise from waste management fires. The and their cost analysis varied from a few hundred forum put forward three points that I believe should be pounds to several thousand. looked at seriously by the Minister—I do understand that this is a cross-departmental issue. First, it recognised If we want to tackle this problem in the future, we the need to share good practice across the industry. need an agreed nationwide system, perhaps developed That was particularly relevant for larger waste management with the National Audit Office, that is transparent, operators guiding small and medium-sized businesses credible and allows regions to share data and better and not only helping to reduce the incidence of fires, understand the costs of these sorts of fires. The responses but lessening their impact when they do happen. Although from South Wales fire and rescue service and Merseyside private companies could undertake that course of action fire and rescue service were the most interesting, as their themselves, regulatory authorities could play a part in costs were significantly higher than the other services. helping the sector to deliver good practice throughout Merseyside fire and rescue service identified 18 incidents, the industry. with single incidents costing, on average, £48,000. South Wales fire and rescue service identified the estimated Secondly, the forum wanted a clampdown on rogue cost of attending seven calls as £344,000, which is an traders. Bad operators need to be identified and action taken average cost of £49,000 a fire. accordingly. It suggested that licensing process could be tightened up and a national database of waste management Those numbers were generated using the economic operators and sites established. I wholeheartedly support cost of fire reports from the Department for Communities that point. The bad neighbours who run these sites and and Local Government and the Welsh Government. blight their local communities need the strongest possible These reports not only look at response costs, but the oversight. money needed to repair the damage afterwards and protect against the cost of fires in the future. For instance, the Legislation is potentially required to support the 2006 Welsh report includes property damage, loss of work of the Environment Agency in case it needs further business, injuries and insurance costs in that financial powers, and I would be interested in what it has to say bundle. Indeed, as I mentioned, insurance companies have about that possibility. We also need a single agency to been pulling out of the sector all year, citing the amount take responsibility for pulling together all the others for of losses not stacking up with the premiums taken. concerted action when fires do occur. We may also need to look at planning for locations of waste management I believe that those higher figures give us a more facilities, waste permits, and appropriate advice and accurate cost of the impact of waste fires. That would guidance on suitable risk-management processes. mean that in two years, waste management fires in This is a big issue, affecting many communities across Wales and England—this is just my back-of-an-envelope England and Wales. I expect that the same is also true in figure; I am not an econometrician—will have cost the Scotland and Northern Ireland—so across the UK. economy approximately £32 million. Fires at waste management sites cost public services, the What needs to be done to solve the problem? It is industry and its insurers an arm and a leg. They make clearly a problem for the communities who have to everyday life intolerable for residents close to a fire and suffer the consequences and it is a problem for our can badly affect the health of some. However, there is a economy, but I am also concerned by the breakdown of clear agenda that could help with this issue, so I hope those fires. In response to parliamentary questions, the that the Minister will try to answer some of the points Minister told me that 595 of the fires in England were at that I have made and will agree an action plan that gets private sites compared with just five at local authority a good grip of it. 139WH Waste Management Sites (Fires)3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Waste Management Sites (Fires) 140WH

4.23 pm of impact. That screening exercise has identified 80 waste sites in England that would pose a very high risk of TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, impact if a fire were to occur. The agency is taking Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson): It is a pleasure action to reduce risks at those sites to acceptable levels, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I and I am seeking regular updates on progress. congratulate the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) on securing the debate on reducing fires at waste The Environment Agency has identified a further management sites. I am delighted to see in their places 215 medium-risk waste sites. Local Environment Agency other hon. Members who have concerns in that regard, teams will prioritise appropriate action to reduce the particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick- risk at those sites in the same way as for the initial upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), who has raised the issue 80 high-risk sites. Last year, the agency also wrote to with me on previous occasions and will continue to do more than 7,000 waste operators to remind them of so until he is satisfied, as I am sure the hon. Member for their regulatory obligations to control the risks and Blaenau Gwent will. Given the fire at the A. Lewis impacts of fires at their sites, and issued a technical Waste Paper Collections Ltd site in Nantyglo in his guidance note setting out appropriate measures and constituency in January 2013, to which he referred, the performance standards for preventing waste fires. The subject is of understandable concern to his constituents, agency guidance is endorsed by the Chief Fire Officers but it is also a concern to many people in the United Association in the way that the hon. Gentleman suggests, Kingdom. to get the benefit of that technical expertise across the sector. Waste management policy, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, is largely a devolved matter. The Welsh Government The Chief Fire Officers Association brought the waste and Natural Resources Wales, to which he referred in industry, the enforcing authorities and other stakeholders relation to that incident, are responsible for policy and together in a forum last year, as the hon. Gentleman regulation of Welsh waste sites respectively. However, I said, to develop a road map towards ensuring a sustained am pleased to have the opportunity to explain what the reduction in fires in waste facilities. One outcome of Government and others are doing to address this important that forum has been the development by the resource issue in England. We will return to some of the issues he management sector of new draft fire safety management raised, which are no doubt important across all jurisdictions guidance and best practice, to be published later this in the United Kingdom. year, so the suggestion that he rightly makes has been taken forward, and I am pleased that he is adding his The Government recognise that the public and the support. In fact, his securing of this debate provides resource management industry have legitimate concerns renewed impetus and ensures that we keep pushing about fires at waste management sites. The fires can forward on that work. involve large volumes of waste burning for prolonged periods. They cause unacceptable impacts on people, Sir Alan Beith: The lessons learned document for the the environment and local infrastructure. Responding fire in my constituency contained, as one of the lessons, to waste fires places a huge strain on the resources not this: just of the fire and rescue service and the Environment Agency, but of the police, local authorities, the Health “Review the merits of…mandatory insurance”, and Safety Executive and public health organisations. meaning that proof of insurance would need to be The hon. Gentleman rightly highlights the substantial produced when a permit is issued. That was referred to cost of waste fires. The firefighting costs alone can be as something to be determined under the national action substantial, but as he pointed out, the costs range much plan. Will it be considered in the discussions that my more widely than that. For example, the cost to the hon. Friend the Minister has described? London Fire Brigade of keeping safe just one waste site that has experienced repeated fires has been in the Dan Rogerson: I thank my right hon. Friend for his region of £650,000. I agree completely with him that intervention. That is one of the areas I have been those are unacceptable costs to the public purse. Repeated discussing with the agency. The hon. Member for Blaenau waste fires also have an impact on the insurance costs Gwent raised concerns about the pressure on the insurance for the resource management sector as a whole—there industry as a result of the situation. We need to look at is also an impact on the businesses of those who are all these issues in the round. Certainly that is an issue following best practice. that we will continue to discuss and address to see When I came into this post last October, there was a whether it would be fruitful to put in some more work long-running fire at the waste site near Berwick-upon- in that direction. Tweed, and recurring fires at a waste site near Bromley The Chief Fire Officers Association has been working in London. I met the then chair of the Environment closely with the Environment Agency. The organisations Agency, Lord Smith of Finsbury, in December to stress are in the process of signing a national memorandum, the importance of early intervention to tackle waste which will promote the co-operation and data-sharing crime and poor performance, which are often contributory that the hon. Gentleman is keen to see, and which will factors in waste fires. set out how local Environment Agency and fire and The Environment Agency set up a waste fires task rescue teams will collaborate and carry out site visits to and finish group last year to review actions needed to ensure effective fire prevention. address the risk of fires at the waste sites that it regulates. In many cases, fires at waste sites are linked to poor As part of that work, the agency conducted a screening operator compliance. This week, I have written to waste exercise to identify sites where there was an increased industry representatives outlining a series of Government risk of a significant fire and/or sites that posed a significant and Environment Agency proposals focused on waste hazard to people and the environment should a fire crime and tackling poor performance at waste management break out, so we are looking at risk and likely severity sites. Those proposals, which were developed in part in 141WH Waste Management Sites (Fires)3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Waste Management Sites (Fires) 142WH

[Dan Rogerson] Environment Agency statistics show that the number of serious or significant fires at waste sites during the response to calls by the industry for more robust past four years has been relatively stable at approximately enforcement action, include: increased agency intervention 15 a year. The Environment Agency regulates more at poor-performing sites; a review of the powers for than 8,000 permitted sites that are involved in storing suspending or revoking environmental permits; increased combustible waste. The 12 serious and significant fires regulatory fees paid by operators of poorly performing that have occurred so far this year represent less than sites; greater agency scrutiny of newly permitted sites; 0.2% of the sites that store combustible waste. We must and revisions to the systems for assessing operator not be complacent, however, and we must strive to competence, which is another crucial angle. We have prevent any such incidents from occurring. The waste talked about the financial risks, but a thorough assessment and resource management sector, the regulators, the fire of operator competence is important in preparation for and rescue services and the Government are taking the opening of new sites and the entry of new businesses forward a range of actions to reduce serious waste fires. to the sector, because it is a technical matter. We want to I welcome the positive and proactive approach that has see people acting in the sector, creating jobs and making been taken by all involved. better use of available resources as part of our move towards a circular economy, but we have to ensure that The hon. Gentleman made a valuable point when he they are technically competent to do so. We also propose mentioned the dissemination of best practice. The code to ensure that environmental permits contain minimum of best practice and the memorandum of understanding standards for the storage of combustible materials. I to which I have referred show that the industry, the fire have invited representatives of the resource industry and rescue services and the environmental protection and the profession to discuss how we and the agency agencies are taking forward such best practice. The new can take our proposals forward, because the Government proposals are designed to tackle rogue traders and poor and the regulator cannot do that alone. performers who got into the industry without technical expertise, so I am pleased that he raised that. In many The hon. Gentleman has referred to the means of cases, the answer is extra investment in enforcement and recording and reporting on fires at waste sites. Each early intervention to prevent outbreaks of fire, however local fire and rescue authority provides the Department small, and the most serious ones must be dealt with. for Communities and Local Government with information about all incidents that it attends, including fires at The hon. Gentleman asked about planning and waste and recycling sites, through the incident reporting permitting, and we will consider those as part of our system, which covers England and Wales. The data review. If the evidence base supports changes to those gathered include details of the area of damage caused regimes, we will look at making those changes. He by the fire. The Environment Agency separately collects asked questions about local authority-managed sites reports from the operators of permitted sites on the and private sector sites. Given the answers he received scale and nature of any environmental impacts associated to his parliamentary questions and the terms in which with fires. Natural Resources Wales and the Scottish he raised them, I understand why he has drawn attention Environment Protection Agency adopt a similar approach to the matter. There are a range of facilities, however, to recording fires at permitted sites in Wales and Scotland. and the local authority sites do not necessarily operate We will work with the Department for Communities with the same materials or deal with the same volumes and Local Government to ensure that the data collected as other sites do, so it is difficult to draw conclusions by the Environment Agency and the fire and rescue from the points he has raised, but that was an interesting authorities are as consistent and robust as possible. I contribution to the debate. acknowledge that there have been some recent high-profile As Minister with responsibility for resources fires, although Environment Agency figures show that management, I will continue to work with the Environment the total number of fires at regulated waste sites over Agency and encourage it to review the effectiveness of the past 10 years has remained relatively constant at its approach to the enforcement of waste controls, and some 250 to 300 a year. Of course, constant is not as to consider what more can be done to reduce the good as declining, so we want further progress. That incidence of serious waste fires. sounds like a lot, but the majority are low-level fires—some of them are caused by electrical faults or equipment failure—that are put out quickly by operatives at the John Robertson (in the Chair): Owing to the earlier site without the need to call fire and rescue services. suspension for the Division, the next debate will end no However, it is important for those to be recorded and later than 5.12 pm, so there is some extra time available form part of our information dataset. for it. 143WH 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Public Health England Hub 144WH Programme and Porton Down Public Health England Hub Programme global environment where outcomes are harder to achieve, and Porton Down and it is doing so very successfully. Understandably, PHE’s primary mandate is not about seizing commercial opportunities, and the translational research capability 4.30 pm at Porton has arguably never been fully realised, and its potential never fully exploited, as a consequence. John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, One of the key arguments for relocating to Essex is Mr Robertson? that Harlow is ideally sited between London and Cambridge, which would allow PHE to establish links I have called this debate on the back of two similar with companies and research institutions based there. debates in June 2010 and September 2013, several questions My fear, however, is that that argument is flawed because in the House, the lobbying of Ministers and meetings the team at Porton has never been disadvantaged by its with officials over the past four years. Today, I urge the current location. As the useful document from the Minister critically to appraise the recommendations Porton life sciences group sets out, the team at Porton that she and her ministerial colleagues have received currently works with more than 250 partners across the from the board of Public Health England to move world, including more than 130 universities, the US significant elements of the PHE facility at Porton Down Government, five international health agencies, nine to a new site in Essex. global pharmaceutical companies and more than 60 small The UK Government have had capabilities at Porton and medium-sized enterprises. The list includes more Down for more than a century, which have evolved into than 30 entities currently based in London or Cambridge. a unique asset overseen by PHE. The facility is recognised In 2012, the Boston Consulting Group carried out a around the world for its role in responding to some of comprehensive study of the drivers of research productivity the gravest threats facing mankind today. Indeed, several in 420 life science companies. The study found that of my constituents have been deployed abroad to support location was not a key factor and that accumulated the international response to the Ebola crisis, which is research expertise was twice as significant. PHE Porton widely reported in the media. has some 3,750 years of scientific acumen relating to However, it is well known that the facilities at Porton infectious disease in its ranks. Almost half of those Down have been in need of a substantial upgrade to individuals are operating above PhD level. PHE argues remain fit for purpose. Until 2009, the board of the that new staff can easily be moved or recruited to Health Protection Agency, PHE’s predecessor organisation, Harlow and that it is a desirable place to work, but the felt that its objectives would be best achieved by expanding fact remains that, when the staff at Porton were last and redeveloping the existing site at Porton. The PHE surveyed, just 7%, or one in 14, were inclined and board has submitted three different business cases—in prepared to move. June 2010, April 2012 and, after a two-year gap, in 2014 I find it perplexing that in the modern age, when the —as it has sought to justify its intention to create a Government are increasingly looking beyond geographical single science hub in Harlow. The PHE board has borders for commercial opportunities, when digital by submitted the outline business case to Ministers, and default is the preferred option and when the Government the preferred option is to collocate its assets on a new are actively seeking to disperse their functions outside campus in Harlow modelled on the USA’s Centers for the south-east, Ministers could accept a plan that flies Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta. The latest in the face of those aspirations. The entire business case publicly available analysis from Professor George Griffin’s is dependent on the premise that an organisation will be 2012 due diligence report disclosed that the Harlow more effective if its staff and resources are in one option would produce a mere 2.6% cost saving for the location, but across PHE employees perform a wide Treasury compared with redevelopment with Porton, range of functions, many of which have little day-to-day over a 68-year time frame. operational co-dependency. I want to use the debate to highlight the risks associated The idea that a physical hub will result in “water cooler with relocating such a sensitive facility. PHE’s primary conversations” leading to improved research outcomes mandate is to is, at best, highly questionable. The private sector left “protect and improve the nation’s health and wellbeing”. that mindset and approach long ago in favour of more Some of the work done at PHE Porton, especially effective use of technology and flexible working practices. translational research into taking products from the The outline business case also makes the assumption workbench to commercial markets, arguably does not that existing partnerships will be able to continue operating fit comfortably in that mission statement. Consequently, effectively throughout at least a 10-year transition period. I am led to believe that the business case does not fully I want to imagine a different scenario in which Porton assess the potential of a redeveloped site at Porton to is finally given the operational freedom to capitalise drive growth in the UK life sciences sector. The Government fully and extend its current external research relationships, clearly view that sector as important to the UK economy, as I have consistently suggested in debates in the House given that they selected one of our colleagues to become over the past four years. Other Departments have recognised Minister with responsibility for life sciences in the July the potential of what exists at Porton. On the same day reshuffle. I emphasise the critical importance of translational that Public Health England’s board made public its research and urge the Minister to be the one who finally recommendation to move to Harlow, the Department unleashes PHE’s full potential at Porton in that area. for Business, Innovation and Skills announced an Public Health England Porton is on course to generate investment of several million pounds to establish a new £65 million in external revenues this year; it receives just science park at Porton, which was supported by the £8 million in funding from the Department of Health. local authority, Wiltshire council, and the local enterprise PHE Porton is operating in an increasingly competitive partnership. The science park will be next door to 145WH Public Health England Hub 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Public Health England Hub 146WH Programme and Porton Down Programme and Porton Down [John Glen] Given the pace of technological change, the notion of a single science hub might become redundant, too. Earlier Public Health England and the Defence Science and this week I met my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Technology Laboratory. The Department of Health’s Norfolk (George Freeman), the new Minister with first spin-off company emerged from PHE Porton, and responsibility for life sciences, and he is a great believer one of the reasons why the science park was conceived in the power of genome sequencing to revolutionise was to provide space for similar likely companies in the care in the NHS. He will know that the direction of future. travel undermines the case for physical collaborations Imagine if the ambition of the universities of Oxford as more laboratory-based diagnostic work is replaced and Southampton to create a second corridor of excellence by computer-based modelling. to rival Cambridge and London could be fostered. The Before approving the plan, I ask the Minister to be regional life sciences industry proposed to create a new sure that the business case contains a rigorous analysis national centre for translational vaccinology, which the of the issues of transitioning and recruiting teams of Medical Research Council could not support further world-class scientists and that the security concerns because of the uncertainty around PHE at Porton about sensitive work, which we hear nothing about, are Down. The project is not some blue-sky ambition proposed not optimistically handled in the business case. Please at the last moment, either. There are signed expressions be sure that the economic value associated with 10-year of interest from two multinational pharmaceutical contracts with the US Government and other external companies and SMEs across the region. It is not a new parties will not be seriously jeopardised during an extended, project but one that has developed from existing working uncertain transitional period in which facilities at both relationships. The university of Southampton, for example, Porton and Harlow will need to co-exist. is involved in more than 30 projects with PHE Porton, Perhaps more importantly, I urge the Minister to such as the one awarded $1.4 million by the US National recognise that, although translational science may not Institute of Health last month to continue its be core to the entity that is currently Public Health groundbreaking work on tuberculosis treatments. England, it is certainly core to the UK’s life sciences I will now discuss PHE Porton’s one geographical industry. Please be sure that the outline business case partnership that depends on physical location. The demonstrates conclusively that the commercial opportunities Defence Science and Technology Laboratory is currently for PHE will be significantly improved by relocating to located immediately adjacent to PHE, and there is a Harlow and that the anticipated gains clearly outweigh natural synergy in the work that the two organisations the opportunity to create a new world-leading corridor do and the security arrangements that they share. I am of translational vaccinology in the south-west at Porton. told that staff have worked particularly closely in I stand here today, for the third time in an Adjournment emergencies. They have a close historical connection, debate since I was elected in 2010, not because I want to their staff share a number of unique competencies and articulate a narrow “keep the jobs in my constituency at both organisations retain a significant proportion of all costs” argument. My primary concern is that this the UK’s containment level 4 laboratories. decision is motivated by a misjudged desire to tidy up Although I understand that greater collaboration different entities within the PHE organisation into a with DSTL has nominally been considered as part of single site, when the day-to-day functional synergies of the single science hub programme, I seek reassurance the different components of PHE are not significant, that that option has been fully evaluated, particularly in the advantages of co-location are notional, uncosted light of what I know to be the willingness of DSTL’s and unproven and most of all, sadly, the risk to the life management to embrace the programme. It has been science sector and the international Porton Down brand known since 2008 that there is spare capacity in DSTL’s are so significant that they render the recommendation high containment facilities, as Professor Griffin told the to proceed with the Harlow option even more questionable. Select Committee on Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills. He reported in 2012 that it is important that 4.50 pm the relationship is preserved: Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve “A move to Harlow would not prevent collaboration with under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I congratulate DSTL but it would be more difficult, particularly since outside my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) the UK ‘Porton Down’ is perceived as being managed more under on securing this important debate. We are in the strange common control than it really is and this carries considerable position of being good friends in the House but having brand value.” completely different perspectives on this issue. I am I emphasise that point. When the Prime Minister said grateful to him for giving me a couple of minutes to that our laboratories had confirmed that there were speak. Like him, I have been campaigning on this for chemical weapons in Syria, he referred not to DSTL or the past four years in meetings with Ministers, by speaking PHE labs but our labs at Porton Down. The media in the House and by tabling Commons motions. reports on samples of Ebola being sent to “our experts The proposed move of Public Health England to at Porton.” Porton has a global reputation built up over Harlow is right for four simple reasons. First, it is right several decades, which Harlow will need to work hard for the organisation itself. The proposed site in Harlow even to establish. is ideally located on the London to Cambridge science Although I fully concede the need to do what is best corridor, so Public Health England will be able to for the national public health interest as a whole, my benefit from the life sciences and science-based enterprises concern is that the translational research function and based around Harlow. The town also has an enterprise the complex relationships and revenue generation activities zone that specialises in medtech and IT, which will help that have been built up over many years will be put at Public Health England in its vital role of protecting the serious risk if the outline business case is accepted as is. nation’s security and well-being. 147WH Public Health England Hub 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Public Health England Hub 148WH Programme and Porton Down Programme and Porton Down According to the Chrysalis review, the Harlow site Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) on securing “provides excellent existing buildings as the framework for laboratory, this debate. It is not his first on this subject, but he is bioinformatics, epidemiology, national microbial culture storage, right to use his opportunities to highlight such important and office facilities”. topics. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for That is because of the closure of the GlaxoSmithKline Harlow (Robert Halfon) for his contribution. laboratories and plant. The future of Porton Down is important not only to My hon. Friend talked about transport links, but I the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for stress that we do have good links: we are close to Salisbury, but to the whole country, given its work on a Stansted Airport, the M11 and M25 and also have good wide range of public health threats—including, as he train links. Transport is not an end in itself, as expertise highlighted, most recently the Ebola outbreak in west is needed, but the opportunity to create a scientific Africa. Scientists have been doing invaluable work at corridor with expertise and those transport links in this Porton Down since the 1950s, but its buildings are more part of the east of England will provide huge benefits than 60 years old and, based on independent surveys of indeed. The board of Public Health England has now the estate, they are increasingly unfit for purpose. My formally recommended the relocation of services at hon. Friend agrees that we need to find a solution to Porton Down, Whitechapel and Colindale to Harlow, that problem to ensure that this vital work is able to saying that it would be able to bring together a range of continue in top quality facilities. its national functions and improve its efficiency and We all agree it is important that scientists have the effectiveness. benefit of state-of-the-art facilities that reflect the latest Relocation to Harlow would be a great opportunity technological advancements, including, as my hon. Friend for Public Health England’s staff. Of course, I empathise alluded to, the shift from the Petri dish to big data. with those who do not want to be uprooted, but there Public Health England put forward the case that significant are great opportunities in Harlow. We are a sculpture benefits would result from not only re-providing the town, with fantastic facilities. We have good quality facilities at Porton, but bringing together the range of housing and beautiful countryside. We also have outstanding public health science functions that it manages across local schools, such as: Burnt Mill which achieved an disparate sites to create an integrated national science 86% GCSE A* to C rate; Harlow college, which according hub. That would enable the UK to punch above its to the Department for Education has for three years in weight on the international stage in preventing, and a row been a No. 1 college in England on all statistics; reducing the burden of, both communicable and non- and a brand new Sir Charles Cao university technical communicable disease. college, which has just officially opened—the Prime As my hon. Friend knows, Public Health England is Minister visited it just before the summer. considering a number of options to meet that challenge The move is right not just for the employees and for and its preferred option is to create a public health Porton Down, but for the taxpayer. We know that science hub based at the former GSK facility, in the Porton Down is coming to the end of its life and constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow. something must be done to stop it becoming a health To reach that position, it has had to consider a wide risk. The option of refurbishment was rejected in the range of long and short-listed options and demonstrate business case as representing poor value for money. In which offers the best value for money. fact, Public Health England’s own analysis shows that The main focus of those options has been on Porton, moving to Harlow would deliver the lowest cost over Colindale—it is good to see the hon. Member for the 60-year life of the programme. The initial outline Hendon (Dr Offord), who represents Colindale, in his business case said that these savings would be in excess place—and Harlow. Public Health England has briefed of £100 billion. the local Members, including my hon. Friends, and the Finally, yes, as the Harlow MP I argue that the move local authorities about the three sites affected and considered is right for Harlow as well. Thanks to the enterprise those views in the option appraisal. zone and the UTC, the relocation would be a good The case submitted by Public Health England is strategic fit and Harlow council is very supportive of being scrutinised by the Department of Health, the the move. It would also be consistent with the increasingly Treasury, the Cabinet Office and the Major Projects renowned pathology specialism of the Princess Alexandra Authority. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for hospital. When GSK unfortunately left the town, Harlow Salisbury that the process will be thorough and robust. lost a lot of jobs. Public Health England’s moving to Following that process, the business case will require Harlow would give the town a much needed boost, with ministerial approval, as he mentioned, and will be published an estimated 700 jobs created initially, which would once finalised. offset the job losses over time. It is not appropriate for me to give further details on As I said, the decision is right for Public Health the business case until the review has been completed England, for British taxpayers and for Harlow. We have and I hope that my hon. Friend will understand that. As the skills, infrastructure and expertise to make it possible. he may be aware, that is to protect commercial In essence, it is a no-brainer, which is why, time after confidentiality and the integrity of decision making. It time, Public Health England itself has recommended is established practice that outline business case documents that the move should take place. are not shared outside the Government before decisions have been made, but the Department and PHE are committed to being open and consultative throughout 4.55 pm this process. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health When I am being briefed on these issues ahead of (Jane Ellison): It is a pleasure to serve under your debates, my first question is always whether we have chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I congratulate my hon. had regular and open contact with the Members involved. 149WH Public Health England Hub 3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Public Health England Hub 150WH Programme and Porton Down Programme and Porton Down [Jane Ellison] As my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury said, issues of national security and our national response I am assured that regular contact has been made between capability must be carefully considered before a final PHE and those hon. Members who are rightly concerned decision is made. It is therefore key that Public Health for the future of the facilities in their constituencies. We England continues to develop links not only with DSTL, want to ensure transparency on the progress of the but with all the other agencies involved in the national process, and at all stages we are providing opportunities security response. to comment on the case, with this debate being the most Another important consideration that my hon. Friend recent example. That commitment to a consultative drew out in his speech is the commercial impact of the process has, for instance, led to all three affected authorities chosen solution, which must ensure that PHE can continue submitting statements about how the science hub would to work in partnership with industry to support wider link with the local economy, which have been included growth in the UK life sciences sector. Like him, I in the business case. celebrate the important work and development that has taken place in that area in recent years. I reassure my Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I congratulate hon. Friend that PHE has undertaken a survey of its my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) current key customers, and only one has said that on securing the debate. We have focused on the business moving from the Porton site would be important for side, which is very important when we introduce a their future business relationship with PHE. national hub, but I am concerned that my constituents’ In Harlow, PHE proposes that the science hub would views about what will happen to them and their extended link with the Harlow enterprise zone and the London- families have not been considered. Many of my constituents Cambridge corridor, which my hon. Friend the Member who work at Colindale are responsible for elderly family for Harlow mentioned. It is one of the key international members and children, and they feel that that has not centres for the life sciences sector and PHE has had been taken into account. Will the Minister respond to discussions with Cambridge university about the that point? opportunities for collaboration based around Harlow. Jane Ellison: I would be disappointed if that issue Even if a decision were made to relocate research had not been considered. There have already been some functions and staff, PHE has confirmed that it remains meetings with staff, but this is an ongoing process. My fully committed to the recently announced Porton science understanding is that at the point at which any firm park, which would involve PHE facilities—consisting decisions are made there will be an extensive consultation of some 300 staff in the development, production and process. I have time set aside to meet with my hon. regional laboratories—remaining at Porton. I know Friend, who is right to highlight those concerns. We can PHE has briefed my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury explore them further and I can respond to any specific on the work it is doing to maximise the commercial concerns. Those valuable members of the scientific potential of the production facilities at Porton, which community make an enormous contribution in lots of he highlighted in his speech. I want to reassure him that ways to our country and we want to ensure that they his important concern has not been overlooked. and their families are considered carefully in this process. The final decision on the outline business case will be On the point about the consultation process, I recently made as soon as possible. My hon. Friend’s wish to have received a letter from the Minister responsible for PHE’s certainty on the case sooner rather than later is entirely neighbours at Porton, the Defence Science and Technology reasonable and understandable, but—as he said—it is Laboratory, which praised PHE’s open, collaborative important that we get this vital decision right. I have approach to discussions about the use of specialist listened carefully to his arguments—this is the first high-containment facilities. That reassures me that a opportunity I have had to hear them laid out first good level of communication is being achieved. hand—and to the important short speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow. I will look at the The business case contains a summary of the document to which my hon. Friend the Member for collaborative work. When my predecessor, my hon. Salisbury referred and ask PHE to respond to it. My Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), outlined hon. Friend is right to champion that renowned facility the Department of Health’s position in a debate a year and his constituency, and I congratulate him on using ago—also secured by my hon. Friend the Member for this further opportunity to highlight his concerns, to Salisbury—she said: which we will give a serious response. “We need to be clear that although PHE and DSTL will continue to collaborate closely, PHE needs dedicated high-containment Question put and agreed to. facilities to ensure that public health work can proceed in the event of the DSTL facilities being fully occupied. This will 5.4 pm provide resilience if DSTL’s facilities are closed for any reason.”— [Official Report, 11 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 1136.] Sitting adjourned. 19WS Written Statements3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Statements 20WS

capabilities. These vehicles will be the eyes and ears of Written Statements commanders on the battlefields of the future and will carry a revolutionary and highly effective cannon. Wednesday 3 September 2014 Vehicle development has drawn on the lessons of recent operations. Scout SV will be a modern, tough, well-protected, highly mobile and agile tracked vehicle, TREASURY able to cope with the most difficult terrain anywhere in the world, 24 hours a day and able to hold its own Office for Budget Responsibility (External Review) against the threats we foresee. It will replace the Army’s existing force of combat vehicle reconnaissance (tracked) vehicles which have given exemplary service for the past The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): 40 years all over the world, most recently in Afghanistan. Today the first external review of the independent Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) has been published Scout SV will fulfil nine different roles from six and presented to Parliament. Formally reporting to the variants: a turreted variant mounting a 40 mm cannon OBR non-executives, the review was led by Kevin Page, fulfilling the Scout, ground-based surveillance and joint former Parliamentary Budget Officer in Canada. In fire control roles, a protected mobility reconnaissance commissioning this report, the OBR non-executives support (PMRS) variant providing an armoured personnel meet their legal requirement to ensure an external review carrier and formation reconnaissance overwatch, command is conducted at least every five years. and control, engineer reconnaissance, recovery and repair variants. In its findings, this report overwhelmingly supports the high-quality work and independent analysis produced by the OBR. The review therefore attests to ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS the Government’s creation of the OBR in 2010 which has placed the UK at the forefront of fiscal institutional Extraordinary Agriculture and Fisheries Council reform internationally. In giving the OBR a duty to produce official economic and fiscal forecasts, this The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Government have ensured that for the first time we have Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss): An extraordinary a truly independent assessment of the state of the Agriculture and Fisheries Council will take place in nation’s finances. Brussels on 5 September. I will represent the UK. The Government welcome the review’s overall findings Richard Lochhead MSP, Michelle O’Neill MLA and and recommendations. These aim to ensure the long-term Rebecca Evans AM will also attend. sustainability of the organisation and include the The extraordinary Council has been called to discuss recommendation that, the Russian import ban on EU agricultural products. “caution be exercised in considering any expansion to the OBR’s There are currently no other confirmed items on the mandate (e.g. costing certification of opposition manifestos)”. agenda. Alongside the OBR, the Treasury will consider the full recommendations and conclusions of the report in JUSTICE more detail. Building on the analysis and conclusions of this independent report, the Government have already Crime Reduction Policies announced their intention to conduct their own review of the OBR at the start of the next Parliament. The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims The external review report was presented before (Mike Penning): I will today publish the response to the Parliament earlier today and copies are available in the Justice Committee’s first report of Session 2014-15: Vote Office and Printed Paper Office. Copies will also “Crime Reduction Policies—a co-ordinated approach?” be made available to members of the public online. The Government are proud of their strong record at reducing crime. The most recent figures from the crime DEFENCE survey for England and Wales show that overall crime has fallen by 62% since its peak in 1995, and is now at Defence Procurement the lowest level since the survey began in 1981. The Government have put robust measures in place to ensure that crime continues to fall; offenders receive The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon): I robust punishments; and that the unacceptably high am pleased to announce the successful contract award rates of reoffending are driven down. We are also worth £3.5 billion (Ex VAT) to General Dynamics UK placing high-quality education at the centre of youth (GDUK) to deliver a minimum fleet of 589 Scout custody to prevent future offending. specialist vehicles (Scout SV) to the British Army. This The public and victims deserve a fair and transparent will sustain a minimum of 1,300 jobs across the UK. justice system that effectively deters and punishes offenders, Deliveries of the Scout SV are planned to commence in and tackles the stubbornly high rates of reoffending 2017. The training establishment and first squadron and this is the primary focus of our transforming will be equipped by mid-2019 to allow conversion to rehabilitation reforms. begin with a brigade ready to deploy from the end of We are opening up the market to a diverse range of 2020. providers to ensure that we get the best out of the Scout SV will transform the Army’s combat capabilities public, voluntary and private sectors, at the local as well and will introduce new and very advanced intelligence, as national level. Bids to run the community rehabilitation surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance companies were received at the end of June and we look 21WS Written Statements3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Statements 22WS to have a healthy competition in all contract package To assist and advise the implementation and evaluation areas, having received over 80 bids, with an average of of the measures, the Government are convening a four bidders per area. The new payment incentives we consultative panel. The panel consists of bodies that will introduce for market providers will also ensure a represent landlords, letting agents, housing and homeless relentless focus on reforming offenders, giving providers charities and others with an informed interest in the flexibility to do what works but only paying them in full matter, and will also include representatives from for real reductions in reoffending. the local authorities in these areas. This will ensure that Under our reforms, for the first time in recent history the first phase can be thoroughly evaluated and considered virtually every offender released from custody will receive as part of the decision-making process on further roll-out. statutory supervision and rehabilitation in the community, to finally address the glaring gap that sees 50,000 short-term prisoners released onto the streets each year with little or no support, free to go back to their criminal ways. We are also putting in place an unprecedented nationwide TRANSPORT “through the prison gate” resettlement service, meaning the majority of offenders will be given continuous support by one provider from custody into the community. We will support this by ensuring that most offenders are South West Trains held in a prison designated to their area for at least three months prior to release. Finally, we have created a new public sector National The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Probation Service, working to protect the public and (Claire Perry): The Department has concluded negotiations building upon the expertise and professionalism which with South West Trains for a deed of amendment to are already in place. their franchise which will deliver the additional capacity Copies of the paper will be available in the Vote set out in the Government’s rail investment strategy. Office and in the Printed Paper Office. The document The project is being managed by Stagecoach South will also be online at: Western Trains. In accordance with usual procurement https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/crime- practice, there is a standstill period of 10 days before reduction-policies-a-coordinated-approach-the- Stagecoach Southwest Trains will be in a position to governments-response enter into, and complete, the formal contractual documentation and make the award to the successful tenderers and enter into a deed of amendment to the HOME DEPARTMENT current franchise agreement. The process is expected to be finalised in the coming week but we have jointly announced our intention to enter into a deed of amendment Immigration Act 2014 (Implementation) to their franchise agreement to deliver the additional capacity set out in the rail investment strategy. The Minister for Security and Immigration (James I am very aware of how crowded South West Trains’ Brokenshire): I am announcing today the location in suburban services are, particularly in the morning peak. which the measures relating to landlords as prescribed The result of the Department’s successful negotiation is by sections 20-37 of the Immigration Act 2014 will first 150 new vehicles—Thameslink variants—which will be be implemented. used on the Windsor lines, leading to an internal cascade The Immigration Act 2014 contains a range of measures which will deliver a full 10-car suburban network, making to reform and streamline the immigration system and use of platforms 1 to 4 at Waterloo which Network Rail address illegal immigration. It introduces restrictions are extending. The Windsor line trains will use the on illegal immigrants accessing rented housing. When platforms at Waterloo International, which are being these provisions come into force, landlords will be prohibited brought back into full use in 2017. There are a number from letting residential accommodation to people who of additional works along the route and at stations have been disqualified by virtue of their immigration which will deliver benefits for passengers. status. In addition, this proposal will provide two more The Government have committed to a phased services on the mainline, which will be the focus of our implementation of these provisions with the measures strategic planning for the next control period, which initially coming into force in one location, followed by begins in 2019. The two additional services are expected an evaluation to inform decisions on further roll-out. I to commence in May 2018 and would start from Woking wish to inform the House that after careful consideration, and from Basingstoke. There would be four additional the scheme is to be implemented first in Birmingham, peak trains from Hounslow, also commencing in May Wolverhampton, Dudley, Walsall and Sandwell. The 2018, providing additional capacity on the suburban new measures will commence in this area from 1 December. network. 237W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 238W

Dr Poulter: The Departmental estate has been undergoing Written Answers to significant rationalisation and cost reduction. In summary the Department and its arm’s length bodies have reduced Questions our estates and facilities costs from £183.1 million in 2009-10 to £121.7 million in 2012-13. Wednesday 3 September 2014 The latest State of the Estate report (SofTE) reports annually on progress made during the year in improving the efficiency of the Government’s Civil Estate. This is available online at: HEALTH www.gov.uk/government/collections/state-of-the-estate Babies The Department’s Property Delivery Plan, refreshed annually, sets out how the Department will continue to Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for reduce its estate and costs beyond 2015. This plan is due Health if he will establish a register of babies naturally to be reviewed at the end of 2014. born before 24 weeks gestation. [206929]

Dr Poulter: All live births in England and Wales must Continuing Care be registered, regardless of gestational age. Data on live births by gestation are collected by the Office for National Statistics and published annually (as part of the statistical Richard Harrington: To ask the Secretary of State for bulletin on gestation-specific infant mortality in England Health (1) what progress clinical commissioning groups and Wales). have made in (a) processing retrospective continuing There are no current plans to establish a separate care claims and (b) the payment of compensation to register of babies born before 24 weeks gestation. affected families; [207531] (2) what support his Department is giving to clinical Breast Cancer commissioning groups to process retrospective continuing care claims. [207458] Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps the Government is taking to reduce the number of avoidable deaths from breast cancer and Norman Lamb: NHS England is aware of the issues regarding the management by clinical commissioning to improve survival rates for that disease. [207436] groups (CCGs) of these cases. NHS England is developing Jane Ellison: Achieving earlier diagnosis of cancer is a plan to identify CCGs where further support may be key to our ambition to save an additional 5,000 lives per required, including the development of local action year by 2014-2015 and improve cancer outcomes and plans. The Department will continue to work closely survival, including for breast cancer. ‘Improving Outcomes: with NHS England to understand and support the A Strategy for Cancer’, published in January 2011, set progress of these cases and to seek assurance that they out the Government’s ambition to close the gap in are being dealt with as quickly as possible. survival outcomes by 2014-15 and the strategy is backed with more than £750 million over this spending review period (four years) including more than £450 million to Dental Services achieve early diagnosis. Specifically on breast cancer, following successful Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for local and regional pilots, a national breast cancer campaign Health (1) what estimate he has made of the number of targeting women aged 70 years plus ran in England only NHS dentistry contracts that were in place between from 3 February to 16 March 2014. The campaign 1 April 2013 and 31 March 2014; and what the (a) included television, press, direct mail and out-of-home name and (b) location was of each provider; [206851] media advertising and the key message was: ‘1 in 3 women who get breast cancer are over 70, so don’t assume (2) what area is covered by each NHS dentistry you’re past it.’ The campaign was targeted at women contract commissioned between 1 April 2013 and over 70 as breast cancer survival is lower in this group 31 March 2014; what the start and finish dates are of than in younger women. In addition, as part of a major each contract area; what the value of each contract is; trial, we are extending the breast screening programme and how many units of dental activity were (a) to women aged 47-49 and 71-73. contracted to be completed and (b) completed between 1 April 2013 and 31 March 2014 under each The Be Clear on Cancer campaign on breast cancer contract. [206876] in women over 70 has been successful in raising awareness of symptoms. Since this time last year, the number of patients seen by a specialist for investigation of unusual Dr Poulter: A table has been placed in the Library breast symptom has risen by almost 20%. which sets out the number of dental contracts reported to the NHS Business Services Authority as in place Buildings between 1 April 2013 and 31 March 2014, the name of the contract holder and the area in which the contract is Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for held. The table includes start and, where applicable, Health if he will review his departmental estate in order finish dates. It also shows the contract value, commissioned to reduce costs; and if he will make a statement. and completed units of dental activity and units of [206689] orthodontic activity. 239W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 240W

Electronic Cigarettes General Practitioners

David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Meg Hillier: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what his policy is on the definition of e-cigarettes (1) how many GP surgeries which receive income from as tobacco products under the terms of the Framework the minimum price income guarantee are in areas Convention on Tobacco Control. [207464] which are high on the deprivation index; [207477] (2) what the cost to the public purse is of freezing the Jane Ellison: Electronic cigarettes are not defined as withdrawal of the minimum price income guarantee tobacco products under the World Health Organisation from GP practices which receive it as of 1 August 2014. (WHO) Framework Convention on Tobacco Control. [207478] The regulation of e-cigarettes, is however, scheduled for discussion at the sixth session of the Conference of the Dr Poulter: Of the 2,824 practices that receive Minimum Parties to the WHO Framework Convention on Tobacco Practice Income Guarantee (MPIG) payments, around Control on 13–18 October 2014. 15% of these (411 practices) are ranked in the upper 20% of areas on the Index of Multiple Deprivation. David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for The freezing of the withdrawal of the MPIG could Health (1) when he expects to announce the implementation cost up to £11 million in 2014-15. This is because the of industry standards for those e-cigarettes regulated as ‘global sum’ payments-into which the reductions in consumer products; [207465] MPIG are added for all practices-have already been set for the year. (2) what steps he is taking to implement stronger checks to ensure no rogue batches of e-cigarettes and This estimated cost would be for 2014-15 only and assumes that any additional costs would only be for liquid are reaching the UK. [207463] part of the year, ie from 1 August.

Jane Ellison: I refer the hon. Member to the written Health Services: Older People answer I gave him on 1 September 2014, Official Report, columns 185-86W. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 17 July 2014, Official Foetal Death Report, columns 766-7W on NHS: funding, if he will estimate the cost of the challenge posed by the pressures posed by the pressures of an aging population and the Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for cost of new investment. [206873] Health how many children were naturally stillborn before 24 weeks’ gestation in each of the last five years. Dr Poulter: In its Fiscal Sustainability Reports-the [206755] latest of which was published on 10 July 2014-the Office for Budget Responsibility publishes estimates of long-term Dr Poulter: Information on the number of pregnancy public spending, including health care, up to 2063-64. losses before 24 weeks’ gestation is not collected centrally. These estimates incorporate a number of assumptions, including the impact of expected demographic change. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what representations he has received on Hospitals: Parking changing the law relating to designation of babies born before 24 weeks’ gestation as stillborn; [206760] Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what representations he has received about the Health what estimate he has made of the average establishment of a register of babies stillborn before amount a full-time NHS worker spends on car parking on NHS sites each year. [206831] 24 weeks’ gestation. [206761] Dr Poulter: Estimates of the average amount a full Dr Poulter: A search of the Department’s Ministerial time national health service worker spends on car parking correspondence database has identified eight items of on NHS sites each year are not made centrally. NHS correspondence received since 1 July 2013 about the law organisations make decisions on the provision and charging relating to the designation and registration of pregnancy for car parking locally for patients, visitors and staff. losses before 24 weeks gestation. This is a minimum figure which represents correspondence received by the Medicine: Teachers Department’s Ministerial correspondence unit only. Since 1 July 2013, two written parliamentary questions Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for have been received about the law relating to the designation Health what steps his Department has taken to create and registration of pregnancy losses before 24 weeks an effective national mechanism for payment for the gestation. academic development of medical teachers. [207442] I met the hon. Member for East Worthingand Shoreham (Tim Loughton) in April 2014 to discuss the Registration Dr Poulter: From 1 April 2013, central funding for of Stillbirths 2013-14 Private members (10 minute rule) education and training is provided by the Department Bill. The Bill was also raised by several hon. Members to Health Education England (HEE) to fund their in a Westminster Hall debate about stillbirth and infant responsibilities for managing the delivery of education mortality on 26 March 2014. and training for the healthcare system. 241W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 242W

HEE receives funding via the National Institute of The Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Health Research to support individuals in specialist Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), training to undertake academic training and become has had no discussions on funding for MND research the researchers and educators of the future. For 2014-15 with the Scottish Government Cabinet Secretary for this funding supports 1,206 posts. Health and Wellbeing. Mid Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust NHS: Training Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information his Department holds on the current Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for safe staff-to-patient ratio on elderly and dementia Health what assessment he has made of whether payments mechanisms to medical schools in the form wards in the Mid Yorkshire NHS trust. [207012] of SIFT funding are resulting in general practices being Dr Poulter: This information is not collected centrally. underpaid. [207441] Local national health service trusts decide how many Dr Poulter: Responsibility for the Service Increment staff they employ, and make these decisions based on for Teaching funding for clinical placements for the needs of their patients and local communities. undergraduate medical and dental students was transferred While the right staffing levels are vital for good to Health Education England (HEE) from April 2013. patient care, minimum staffing numbers and ratios cannot Current rates for hospitals are subject to a national take account of local circumstances, skill mix or case tariff, and those for general practices are subject to mix. historic local agreement. One of the roles for the Chief Inspector of Hospitals The Department and HEE are reviewing the funding is to take action if hospitals are found to be compromising for medical placements in GP practices. Until this review patient care by not having the right number of staff concludes, no changes are being planned to the funding on wards. of these placements. Motor Neurone Disease Nurses John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how much funding his Department has Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for allocated to research into motor neurone disease in Health how many clinical nurse specialists are employed each of last 10 years; [206942] by each health trust in England. [206737] (2) what recent discussions he has had with the Dr Poulter: Information on the number of clinical Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing in Scotland nurse specialists employed by each health trust in England on funding for research into motor neurone disease. is only available centrally for those working in cancer, [206931] diabetes and trauma. This is available through the National Peer Review Programme, which is a quality assurance Dr Poulter: Prior to the establishment of the National programme managed by NHS England for the National Institute for Health Research (NIHR) in April 2006, the Health Service. However, the information requested main part of the Department’s total health research could only be obtained at disproportionate cost. expenditure was devolved to and managed by national health service organisations. From April 2006 to March The Government has supported the development of 2009, transitional research funding was allocated to a range of specialist roles within nursing. It is for local these organisations at reducing levels. The organisations NHS organisations with their knowledge of the healthcare have accounted for their use of the allocations they have needs of their local population to invest in training for received from the Department in an annual research specialist skills and to deploy specialist nurses. Specialist and development report. The reports identify total, nurses provide invaluable support for patients and their aggregated expenditure on national priority areas but families. They are able to provide specialist treatment do not provide details of spend on research into specific and advice and act as a gateway to other members of diseases including motor neurone disease (MND). the multidisciplinary team, which improves care and Expenditure on MND research by the NIHR from outcomes. 2009-10 through research programmes, research centres and units, and research fellowships is shown in the Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health following table. (1) how much Mid Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust has spent on permanent nursing staff in each year since £ million 2010; [206982] (2) how much Mid Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust 2009-10 0.1 has spent on hiring temporary nursing staff in each 2010-11 0.1 year since 2010. [206981] 2011-12 0.4 2012-13 0.7 Dr Poulter: Information is not available in the format 2013-14 0.5 requested. Total spend by the NIHR on MND research is higher The amounts spent by Mid Yorkshire Hospitals NHS than this because expenditure by the NIHR Clinical Trust on nursing, midwifery and health visiting for Research Network (CRN) on this topic cannot be NHS and non-NHS staff are shown in the following disaggregated from total CRN expenditure. table. 243W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 244W

Mid Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust £000 2010-11 2011-12

NHS staff: nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff 90,832 107,686 Non-NHS staff (agency, etc): nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff 533 742 Notes: 1. It is not possible to separately identify “nursing staff” expenditure from “nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff” expenditure. The closest match is expenditure on “nursing, midwifery and health visiting” for NHS and non-NHS staff. 2. Locums and bank staff (whether organised by the Trust itself or NHS Professionals) are included in the “NHS Staff” figures, unless the payment for their services is to a private employment agency. Private agency staff procured via NHS Professionals are included in the “non-NHS staff” figures. 3. The data is taken from the annual Financial Returns, which are a means for the NHS to provide planning and costing information to the Department, and these essentially provide a more detailed breakdown of individual expenditure lines reported in the audited summarisation schedules. The Financial Returnsdataisnot itself audited, but is instead validated by reference to the audited summarisation schedules from which the NHS Summarised Accounts are prepared. 4. The Department ceased to collect data via the annual Financial Returns for NHS trusts from 2012-13 onwards. Data has therefore only been provided for 2010-11 and 2011-12. Source: Unaudited Financial Returns 2010-11, 2011-12

Paramedical Staff Dr Poulter: The number of paramedics working in each ambulance service in England in each month since Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for May 2010 is in the following table: Health how many paramedics were working in each ambulance service in England in each month since May 2010. [207054]

NHS hospital and community health services: Paramedics in England by ambulance trust as at the end of each specified month Number May Jun July Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr 2010 2010 2010 2010 2010 2010 2010 2010 2011 2011 2011 2011

Total 10,118 10,148 10,174 10,195 10,230 10,353 10,428 10,457 10,537 10,604 10,658 10,667 paramedic staff

London 1,764 1,770 1,762 1,767 1,776 1,809 1,829 1,834 1,837 1,842 1,869 1,898 Ambulance Service NHS Trust Great Western 404 416 408 408 408 425 435 436 454 465 473 479 Ambulance Service NHS Trust North East 535 538 540 538 537 544 550 550 554 564 568 566 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust North West 1,333 1,340 1,335 1,337 1,331 1,349 1,350 1,351 1,373 1,379 1,378 1,373 Ambulance Service NHS Trust Yorkshire 970 971 988 993 1,011 1,031 1,033 1,038 1,056 1,071 1,083 1,087 Ambulance Service NHS Trust East Midlands 1,064 1,059 1,061 1,068 1,081 1,096 1,103 1,105 1,112 1,116 1,109 1,098 Ambulance Service NHS Trust West Midlands 1,125 1,132 1,152 1,164 1,168 1,184 1,205 1,208 1,218 1,240 1,252 1,245 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust East of 968 969 968 966 964 969 973 984 989 990 987 978 England Ambulance Service NHS Trust

South East 643 644 643 634 620 603 607 609 613 613 611 616 Coast Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust 245W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 246W

NHS hospital and community health services: Paramedics in England by ambulance trust as at the end of each specified month

Number

May Jun July Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr 2010 2010 2010 2010 2010 2010 2010 2010 2011 2011 2011 2011

South Central 513 513 526 536 540 551 550 546 544 548 549 548 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust

South Western 800 796 791 785 796 792 794 795 786 776 780 779 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust

Number May Jun July Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr 2011 2011 2011 2011 2011 2011 2011 2011 2012 2012 2012 2012

Total 10,667 10,669 10,684 10,785 10,865 11,058 11,163 11,154 11,154 11,238 11,247 11,220 paramedic staff

London 1,888 1,881 1,874 1,876 1,894 1,915 1,929 1,914 1,898 1,896 1,898 1,890 Ambulance Service NHS Trust Great Western 486 490 488 489 518 527 533 527 540 548 563 566 Ambulance Service NHS Trust North East 568 564 565 561 557 573 580 578 577 595 594 597 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust North West 1,379 1,375 1,371 1,401 1,414 1,479 1,536 1,553 1,546 1,558 1,562 1,564 Ambulance Service NHS Trust Yorkshire 1,087 1,097 1,098 1,092 1,090 1,106 1,107 1,106 1,110 1,115 1,116 1,110 Ambulance Service NHS Trust East Midlands 1,099 1,105 1,110 1,098 1,108 1,115 1,115 1,116 1,115 1,122 1,121 1,117 Ambulance Service NHS Trust West Midlands 1,245 1,236 1,239 1,240 1,237 1,251 1,257 1,264 1,268 1,280 1,277 1,275 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust East of 974 975 983 980 980 987 996 1,005 1,006 1,012 1,010 1,009 England Ambulance Service NHS Trust South East 612 611 614 675 681 681 692 685 686 686 687 674 Coast Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust South Central 547 550 564 591 595 621 613 603 604 623 620 615 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust South Western 782 784 779 783 790 803 805 802 804 801 799 802 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust 247W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 248W

Number May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr 2012 2012 2012 2012 2012 2012 2012 2012 2013 2013 2013 2013

Total 11,201 11,162 11,224 11,258 11,405 11,599 11,682 11,723 11,779 11,865 11,851 11,878 paramedic staff

London 1,881 1,858 1,878 1,888 1,906 1,944 1,973 1,977 1,997 1,988 1,979 2,000 Ambulance Service NHS Trust Great Western 571 571 566 563 584 593 594 588 586 — — — Ambulance Service NHS Trust North East 592 589 588 586 584 601 600 600 599 600 598 595 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust North West 1,557 1,546 1,537 1,531 1,540 1,571 1,606 1,613 1,619 1,626 1,622 1,635 Ambulance Service NHS Trust Yorkshire 1,111 1,111 1,123 1,118 1,119 1,132 1,133 1,143 1,143 1,155 1,159 1,155 Ambulance Service NHS Trust East Midlands 1,118 1,119 1,118 1,117 1,123 1,128 1,130 1,132 1,161 1,174 1,170 1,157 Ambulance Service NHS Trust West Midlands 1,269 1,272 1,288 1,309 1,342 1,371 1,373 1,400 1,404 1,424 1,423 1,417 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust East of 1,017 1,023 1,024 1,013 1,009 1,013 1,009 1,018 1,011 1,027 1,029 1,034 England Ambulance Service NHS Trust South East 667 657 662 691 726 756 754 751 746 757 755 760 Coast Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust South Central 614 608 632 629 655 668 680 676 687 696 697 700 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust

Number May Jun July Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr 2013 2013 2013 2013 2013 2013 2013 2013 2014 2014 2014 2014

Total 11,863 11,823 11,837 11,856 11,964 12,136 12,190 12,188 12,175 12,168 12,140 12,113 paramedic staff

London 1,988 1,973 1,962 1,943 1,928 1,980 1,971 1,958 1,941 1,923 1,910 1,896 Ambulance Service NHS Trust Great Western ———————————— Ambulance Service NHS Trust North East 595 591 587 582 574 570 565 562 558 551 550 546 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust North West 1,630 1,626 1,615 1,611 1,638 1,682 1,723 1,726 1,733 1,733 1,718 1,711 Ambulance Service NHS Trust 249W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 250W

Number May Jun July Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr 2013 2013 2013 2013 2013 2013 2013 2013 2014 2014 2014 2014

Yorkshire 1,159 1,156 1,160 1,169 1,168 1,165 1,160 1,169 1,180 1,177 1,174 1,175 Ambulance Service NHS Trust East Midlands 1,154 1,148 1,158 1,152 1,164 1,180 1,182 1,179 1,187 1,187 1,180 1,175 Ambulance Service NHS Trust West Midlands 1,415 1,416 1,420 1,421 1,439 1,470 1,467 1,465 1,467 1,477 1,477 1,470 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust East of 1,038 1,035 1,043 1,058 1,073 1,081 1,087 1,092 1,082 1,108 1,117 1,121 England Ambulance Service NHS Trust South East 756 752 763 777 824 823 828 827 823 811 818 839 Coast Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust South Central 697 699 692 710 726 727 719 720 717 715 706 697 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust South Western 1,431 1,429 1,436 1,432 1,430 1,456 1,488 1,490 1,487 1,487 1,491 1,482 Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust — denotes zero. Notes: 1. April 2014 is the most recent data available. 2. Full-time equivalent figures are rounded to the nearest whole number. 3. These statistics relate to the contracted positions within English NHS organisations and may include those where the person assigned to the position is temporarily absent, for example on maternity leave. 4. From 1 February 2013 the services previously provided by Great Western Ambulance Service NHS Trust transferred into South Western Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust. Data quality: The Health and Social Care Information Centre seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve data quality where changes impact on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant analyses. Monthly data: As from 21 July 2010 the Health and Social Care Information Centre has published provisional monthly NHS workforce data. As expected with provisional statistics, some figures may be revised from month to month as issues are uncovered and resolved. The monthly workforce data is not directly comparable with the annual workforce census; it only includes those staff on the Electronic Staff Record (i.e. it does not include primary care staff or bank staff). There are also new methods of presenting data (headcount methodology is different and there is now a role count). This information is available from September 2009 onwardsatthe following website: www.hscic.gov.uk Source: Health and Social Care Information Centre Provisional Monthly Workforce Statistics.

Parkinson’s Disease health facilities involving Parkinson’s disease and medicines used to treat Parkinson’s disease were reported through Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State the National Reporting and Learning System. for Health (1) how many incidents of medication errors Improving services for people with Parkinson’s disease involving hospital patients with Parkinson’s disease and other neurological conditions is a key priority for have been reported since the joint patient safety alert NHS England. Its strategic clinical networks have a on steps to improve data reporting quality was issued specific focus on patients with neurological problems, by NHS England and the Medicines and Healthcare such as Parkinson’s disease. NHS trusts and care homes Products Regulatory Agency in March 2014; [206600] in England should have policies and procedures in place (2) with reference to the National Patient Safety to ensure that people with Parkinson’s disease receive Agency rapid response report on reducing harm from their medicines when they are required to take them to omitted and delayed medicines in hospital, what steps control their illness and symptoms. his Department has taken to ensure that hospitals in NHS England has recently launched a medication England and Wales are able to supply Parkinson’s ‘safety thermometer’ that enables health and care disease medications to patients in a timely way. [206629] organisations to measure aspects of medication safety on a regular basis for improvement purposes. This will George Freeman: NHS England has advised that, enable hospitals to track their progress in reducing the between 20 March 2014 and 21 July 2014, 617 incidents number of omitted doses of medicines, including of in general, acute or community hospitals or mental those used to treat Parkinson’s disease. 251W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 252W

Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State To achieve this we have increased the number of for Health what steps his Department’s Complaints midwives by over 1,700 and the number of health Programme Board has taken to improve the handling visitors by over 2,000 since May 2010. In addition, a of complaints by people with Parkinson’s disease who record 6,000 midwifery students are currently in training do not receive their medication on time in hospital or a and we are committed to having an extra 4,200 health care home. [206743] visitors by 2015.

Dr Poulter: The Complaints Programme Board is Poultry Meat: Northern Ireland made up of partners across the health and care system working together to improve complaints handling for Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the benefit of patients, and to deliver specific commitments (1) what recent reports he has received of food related to this in the Government’s Hard Truths report. contamination at chicken abattoirs in Northern Ireland; It is important that patients understand how to complain [207468] about their care or treatment if they wish to. For that reason, we will shortly publish a simple guide describing (2) if he will ask the Food Standards Agency to how to complain so whatever health condition a patient assess the level of food contamination at chicken has, or whatever they want to complain about, they can abattoirs in Northern Ireland. [207147] do so easily and find the right support to help them if they need it. Jane Ellison: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) is responsible for meat hygiene official controls in poultry Postnatal Depression abattoirs across the United Kingdom (UK). The FSA advises there are six poultry abattoirs in Northern Ireland. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department of Agriculture and Rural Development Health how many women had post-natal depression in Veterinary Service (DARD VS) delivers meat hygiene official controls in poultry abattoirs on behalf of the the UK in each of the last five years. [206801] FSA in Northern Ireland. DARD VS veterinary officials Dr Poulter: We do not hold data on the number of carry out these controls in the areas of ante-mortem women suffering from postnatal depression centrally. inspection, post mortem inspection, sampling and regular verification audits of the abattoirs. Postnatal depression encompasses a range of diagnoses from anxiety and depression to the more severe puerperal Post mortem inspection is carried out by qualified psychosis, with symptoms occurring a few weeks or poultry meat inspectors or plant inspection assistants months after birth. Postnatal depression may be diagnosed working under the direct supervision of the official by different health professionals such as midwives, health veterinarian (OV). The OV is responsible for verifying visitors or general practitioners seeing women in different on a daily basis that the post mortem inspection is settings and using different information systems. carried out in accordance with food law. Part of the post mortem inspection includes examination of the Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for carcase and offal for visible contamination. Health what steps he is taking to support women with DARD VS official veterinarians also conduct regular post-natal depression in the UK. [206802] audits of approved establishments to verify that food business operators are complying with food law Dr Poulter: Health Education England (HEE) has requirements. committed to ensure that we have the right knowledge Five of the poultry abattoirs have an audit category and training available so that we can be skilled in how of ‘broadly compliant’ and one abattoir has an audit we look after women’s mental as well as physical health. category of ‘not broadly compliant’ as of July 2014. The HEE Mandate includes an objective that there will Where an abattoir is not broadly compliant DARD VS be specialist staff available for every birthing unit by takes action to improve compliance. 2017. The outcomes of audit for FSA approved poultry The Department has funded the Institute of Health abattoirs for Northern Ireland are published at: Visitors to train a network of 375 perinatal mental www.food.gov.uk/business-industry/meat/audit health visitor champions, and has also introduced three It is the responsibility of food business operators to interactive e-learning modules. This new resource will comply with food law and ensure the food they produce help health visitors in the detection and management of is safe to eat. perinatal depression and other maternal mental health conditions. The FSA in the UK are committed to reducing Campylobacter contamination in poultry at retail sale. The Mandate from the Government to NHS England A UK survey commenced in February 2014 and includes includes an objective for NHS England to work with samples from NI. The results are published at: partner organisations to reduce the incidence and impact of postnatal depression through earlier diagnosis, and www.food.gov.uk/news-updates/news/2014/9279/campylobacter- survey better intervention and support. The first set of results was published in August 2014. The NHS Mandate also includes an objective that every woman has a named midwife who is responsible for ensuring she has personalised care throughout pregnancy, Pregnant Women: Screening childbirth and during the postnatal period. This will help clinicians to identify perinatal mental health problems Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for as early as possible and to give women the support they Health (1) what diseases are routinely screened for in need. antenatal screening in NHS hospitals; [206738] 253W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 254W

(2) how much the NHS spent on antenatal screening Jane Ellison: It is not Government practice to translate in the last year; [206739] Impact Assessments. The consultation document itself (3) what steps his Department is taking to (a) widen was translated into several languages to raise awareness NHS antenatal screening to cover more diseases and and to facilitate the response from a wide range of (b) offer the option of further screening to more relevant stakeholders. women. [206741] Telephone Services Dr Poulter: The UK National Screening Committee provides advice to Ministers on screening issues. It will Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health continue to keep all antenatal screening programmes under what timetable his Department plans to phase-out under review and will advise further when appropriate. use of telephone lines with the prefix (a) 0845, 0844 All pregnant women are offered screening for and 0843 in accordance with the Cabinet Office guidance thalassaemia, hepatitis B, HIV, rubella susceptibility on customer service lines published in December 2013 and syphilis. A test for sickle cell is offered if the fetus is and (b) 03 and 08, where 03 is the primary number identified of being at higher risk of this condition. under a dual numbering system. [207452] All pregnant women are also offered ultrasound scans during their pregnancy. This screening identifies Down’s Dr Poulter: The Department will comply with the syndrome, and major structural anomalies such as Cabinet Office timetable and guidelines regarding the anencephaly, open spina bifida, cleft lip, diaphragmatic use of non-geographical 0845, 0844 and 0843 numbers hernia, gastroschisis, exomphalos, serious cardiac and treat the use of 03 prefix as a default policy position abnormalities, bilateral renal agenesis, lethal skeletal for the provision of core public services. dyslasia, Edwards’ syndrome (Trisomy 18) and Patau’s syndrome (Trisomy 13). Viral Haemorrhagic Disease To obtain how much the National Health Service has spent on antenatal screening in the last year would be at Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health a disproportionate cost. what training and guidance on the Ebola virus has been issued to staff at airports and ports in Northern Prescription Drugs Ireland. [207466]

Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Jane Ellison: Advice for United Kingdom border what his policy is on making it easier for licensed force staff with regard to Ebola virus was developed by medication drugs to be used for off-patent treatments. Public Health England and circulated by the Border [207483] Force to all UK ports, including those in Northern Ireland. George Freeman: Prescribers should always consider using a licensed medicine within the terms of its licenses Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health as the first option. Where this approach does not meet what recent discussions he has had with the Northern the clinical needs of a patient, clinicians can prescribe a Ireland Executive on precautionary measures to protect licensed medicine outside the terms of its license. against the spread of the Ebola virus. [207467] Information to support clinical decisions on the use of medicines outside their licensed indications is available Jane Ellison: The Department holds regular meetings from sources such as the National Institute for Health involving officials from all of the devolved Administrations and Care Excellence and the British National Formulary. in which they discuss current emergency preparedness issues. There are also meetings convened by Public School Milk Health England to ensure that all preparations are co-ordinated. Over the last few weeks, these discussions have included the response to the Ebola outbreak in Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for West Africa; including United Kingdom readiness in Health what steps he is taking to ensure that rural, the event that cases arrive in one of our countries. remote and small settings will continue to receive milk under the Nursery Milk scheme. [206967]

Dr Poulter: Next Steps for Nursery Milk, published on 27 March, set out the Government’s plans to modernise TREASURY the Nursery Milk Scheme. Ensuring supply to all eligible childcare settings will be a key consideration for the Aggregates Levy: Northern Ireland Department in developing the modernised scheme. Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Standardised Packaging for Tobacco Independent when he expects the European Commission to make a Review decision on the Aggregate Credit Levy scheme. [207469]

Richard Harrington: To ask the Secretary of State for Priti Patel: On 7 August 2014, the European Commission Health if he will publish his Department’s impact released a short summary of their decision on the assessment relating to the consultation into standardised Aggregates Levy Credit scheme. The full decision will tobacco packaging in a wider range of languages. be released by the commission in the coming weeks [207457] once commercially sensitive information has been redacted. 255W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 256W

Hotels: VAT ATTORNEY-GENERAL EU Law Henry Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will bring forward proposals to reduce Mr Redwood: To ask the Attorney-General how many VAT to five per cent on hotel rooms. [207515] new EU directives and regulations have been transposed into UK law by the Law Officers’ Departments since Mr Gauke: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer that I May 2010. [207252] gave on 11 February 2014, Official Report, columns 212-14WH. The Solicitor-General: The Law Officers’ Departments have not transposed any EU directives or regulations into UK law since May 2010. Revenue and Customs Fraud

Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Attorney General Exchequer what criteria were used to determine the how many Shawcross exercises have been conducted in location of new posts within the HM Revenue and relation to the SFO’s investigations in the last two [207315] Customs Debt Management Directorate. [207480] years. The Solicitor-General: None. Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs’ Debt Management and Banking directorate has looked at Police: Surveillance existing capacity across its locations, specific functional requirements and IT infrastructure and used the availability Helen Goodman: To ask the Attorney-General what of people and management to determine locations. reasons the Crown Prosecution Service gave for its decision not to prosecute undercover police officers accused of starting sexual relationships with environmental Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer activists. [207455] whether the work of the HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) Debt Management Directorate can be carried The Attorney-General: The Crown Prosecution Service out at any (a) HMRC office and (b) HMRC office (CPS) will review any cases referred to it by the police in currently used for the work of the Personal Tax Operations accordance with the two stage test that is set out in the Directorate. [207482] Code for Crown Prosecutors. Where there is sufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction and it is Mr Gauke: Wherever possible, HM Revenue and in the public interest, such cases will be prosecuted. Customs aims to fill vacancies in the locations where its The CPS has been working with officers conducting existing functions are already based. This is to ensure the Operation Herne investigation into the conduct of a that suitable accommodation and IT is available and number of officers. appropriate management to support new employees is On 21 August 2014 the Crown Prosecution Service in place on site. issued a statement containing the reasons it gave for not prosecuting officers considered under Operation Aubusson, a subset of Operation Herne which is available at: Revenue and Customs: Glasgow http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/latest_news/ charging_decision_concerning_mps_special_demonstration_squad/ Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Prosecutions if he will confirm why HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) staff currently employed in the Personal Tax Sir Edward Garnier: To ask the Attorney General Operations Directorate office in Glasgow and who wish who the non-police prosecuting agencies are in England to be transferred to HMRC Debt Management Directorate and Wales; and what each body’s status and powers in are not allowed to continue to work in HMRC Glasgow law are as a prosecutor. [207545] offices. [207481] The Solicitor-General: Where an offence does not Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs’ (HMRC) specify a particular prosecutor, any person has the right Debt Management & Banking Directorate is recruiting to institute criminal proceedings and conduct a prosecution. staff in locations across the country where it has specific This applies whether the person is acting in a purely personal functional requirements and the IT infrastructure to capacity or in the course of his duties for a local authority, support the work. government department, business enterprise or other It has posts immediately available in East Kilbride organisation. However, the vast majority of non-police and Cumbernauld. These jobs have been made available prosecutions are conducted by the following public to all staff on fixed term appointments nationwide, authorities. Due to the right of any legal person to including those currently working in Glasgow. Some of institute criminal proceedings, this is not an exhaustive these members of staff have applied for jobs in East list: Kilbride and Cumbernauld. HMRC is continuing to Crown Prosecution Service (“CPS”): look at options for the remaining staff within the Personal Established by the Prosecution of Offences Act 1985, Tax line of business who want to continue their employment the CPS is a non-ministerial government department, with HMRC. operating under the superintendence of the Attorney- 257W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 258W

General. In addition to prosecuting cases investigated Food Standards Agency (“FSA”): by the police, the CPS prosecutes cases referred to it by Established by the Food Standards Act 1999, the DEFRA, Home Office immigration officials, HMRC, FSA is a non-ministerial government department with the National Crime Agency, the DWP, the Medicines the objective of protecting public health in relation to and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, the food. It investigates and prosecutes food safety and Department for Health, the Food Standards Agency food hygiene offences that are contained in both primary and the Child Maintenance Group. and secondary legislation. Offences relating to animal Serious Fraud Office (“SFO”): welfare in abattoirs are prosecuted by the CPS. The SFO and its powers were created by the Criminal Health and Safety Executive (“HSE”): Justice Act 1987 (as amended). It is an independent Established by the Health and Safety at Work Act government department, operating under the superintendence 1974 (“HSWA”), the HSE aims to protect the health, of the Attorney-General. Its purpose is to investigate safety and welfare of people at work, and to safeguard and, if appropriate, prosecute those who commit serious others, mainly members of the public, who may be or complex fraud, bribery and corruption and pursuing exposed to risks from the way work is carried out. This them and others for the proceeds of their crime. includes investigating and prosecuting offences under Service Prosecuting Authority (“SPA”): the HSWA and associated regulations. Office of the Rail Regulator (“ORR”): The SPA was formed by the Armed Forces Act 2006 on 1 January 2009. The role of the SPA is to review ORR is a non-ministerial government department. cases referred to it by the Service Police or Chain of Established on 5 July 2004 by the Railways and Transport Command and to prosecute appropriate cases at Courts Safety Act 2003, ORR enforces health and safety law in Martial or the Service Civilian Court. relation to railways and prosecutes under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 (HSWA), the Railways Department for Business Innovation and Skills (“BIS”): (Interoperability) Regulations 2011, the Rail Vehicle The functions of the Secretary of State for Business, Accessibility (Non-Interoperable Rail System) Regulations Enterprise and Regulatory Reform were transferred to 2010 and the Train Driving Licences and Certificates the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Regulations 2010. Skills by Order in 2009. BIS is the lead criminal enforcement Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (“DVLA”): agency for insolvency related fraud and associated corporate DVLA is an executive agency sponsored by the misconduct. It is responsible for the investigation and Department for Transport and prosecutes offences prosecution of offences on behalf of the Secretary of contained in the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act State under the Insolvency and Companies regimes, 1994 and associated regulations on behalf of the Secretary including bankruptcy offences and fraudulent trading. of State for Transport. Competition and Markets Authority (“CMA”): Driver Vehicle Standards Agency (“DVSA”): The CMA is an independent non-ministerial department. DVSA is an executive agency sponsored by the It was established by the Enterprise and Regulatory Department for Transport and aims to improve road Reform Act 2013 and took over many of the functions safety in the U.K. It prosecutes under a range of primary of the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) together with those and secondary legislation in relation to vehicle standards. of the Competition Commission. In particular, under The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (“MCA”): the Enterprise Act 2002, the CMA has the power to MCA is a UK executive agency sponsored by the investigate and prosecute individuals for the cartel offence Department for Transport. Its objectives are to prevent contrary to section 188 of that Act. The CMA also the loss of lives at sea implement British and International investigates and prosecutes offences under The Consumer maritime law and safety policy.It investigates and prosecutes Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and health and safety offences and offences contained in the The Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Merchant Shipping Act 1995 and associated regulations. Regulations 2008. Local Authorities (“LA’s”): Companies House (“CA”): LA’s prosecute a broad range of offences from housing CA is an executive agency of BIS and has responsibility benefit fraud to trading standards and food hygiene for prosecuting offences of failing to file annual accounts offences. and annual returns under the Companies Act 1985 (as amended). Gambling Commission (“GC”): BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The GC was set up under the Gambling Act 2005 to regulate commercial gambling in Great Britain. It is an EU External Trade: USA independent non-departmental public body sponsored by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. GC Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, has the power to investigate and prosecute offences Innovation and Skills what the UK’s policy is on EU under the Gambling Act 2005. negotiations on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership; and what consultation his Department has Environment Agency (“EA”): had with the devolved administrations in formulating EA is an executive non-departmental public body this policy. [206552] sponsored by DEFRA. Established in 1996 by the Environment Act 1995, it investigates and prosecutes Matthew Hancock: Securing significant progress on environmental offences contained in both primary and the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership secondary legislation. (TTIP) negotiations is a top priority for the Government’s 259W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 260W trade agenda. We are pushing for a broad agreement on outreach, student success and student financial support that eliminates the vast majority of tariffs on trade measures to £735 million, up from £444 million in between the two markets and reduces other unnecessary 2011/12. barriers to trade. Similarly it is important that young people and adults Ministers in the Scottish and Welsh Governments from disadvantaged groups are able to access good and the Northern Ireland Executive, through regular quality further education and skills training to help Joint Ministerial Committee meetings, have an opportunity them to find employment, participate in their local to input into the UK position, where appropriate, and community and to lead a more independent life. Ministers have been kept abreast of development. Officials We provide ’Learning Support’ funding to colleges from the Devolved Administrations are also invited to and providers to help people with learning difficulties frequent cross-Whitehall meetings on TTIP, and are in and/or disabilities. We support unemployed people into regular contact with trade policy officials in Whitehall. work by funding units and qualifications in vocational skills, and we fully fund all adults to achieve their first EU Law English and maths GCSE. We contribute £210 million a year to support non-formal Community Learning, Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, attracting disadvantaged groups and mature learners Innovation and Skills how many times the UK has lost who have had very few previous opportunities to engage EU infraction proceedings since May 2010 which relate in education. to matters that fall within his Department’s responsibility. Telephone Services [206648] Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Matthew Hancock: Since May 2010 the UK has not Innovation and Skills under what timetable his Department lost any EU infraction proceedings falling within the plans to phase-out use of telephone lines with the prefix responsibility of BIS. (a) 0845, 0844 and 0843 in accordance with the Cabinet Office guidance on customer service lines published in Private Education December 2013 and (b) 03 and 08, where 03 is the primary number under a dual numbering system. Sir Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for [207450] Business, Innovation and Skills what plans his Department has for increasing the role of private colleges in provision Jo Swinson: All of the Department’s 0845, 0844 and of further and higher education; and if he will make a 0843 numbers have now been replaced with 03 numbers statement. [207047] and the 08 numbers will cease to be operational by the end of 2014. Telephone lines with dual numbering will Greg Clark: In September 2014 the Department will also revert to the 03 number at the same time. invite both new and existing alternative providers to apply to have new courses designated so that their students may have access for student support in the PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION 2015/16 academic year. There will also be an additional Television opportunity for providers to apply in February 2015. For the 2015/16 academic year we will allow student Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Chairman of the Public numbers at high quality alternative providers to be Accounts Commission how much the Public Accounts freed from student number controls in a similar manner Commission spent on televisions in (a) 2013 and (b) as for HEFCE-funded provision, but we will continue 2014 to date. [207145] to retain a control on numbers at higher risk provision. Sir Edward Leigh: The Public Accounts Commission Students: Disadvantaged is a statutory committee with no operational functions. It has spent no money on televisions in 2013 or 2014. Sir Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to CABINET OFFICE widen access to and inclusion in further and higher education for mature, disadvantaged and other harder Billing to reach students. [207045] Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what the value is of duplicate supplier payments Greg Clark: This Government has been very clear identified by his Department since 2010; and what about the importance of widening participation and proportion of such payments have since been recovered improving fair access in higher education—all those in each of the last two financial years. [205966] with the ability should have access to higher education, irrespective of family income. Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office identified duplicate In April we published the new ‘National strategy for payments worth £77,164 through the 2011/12 to 2012/13 access and student success’. It will help to ensure that payments review. All of the duplicate payments identified all those with the potential to benefit from higher were recovered. education have equal opportunity to participate and EU Law succeed. Our reforms and new funding methodology have ensured that institutions are investing significantly Mr Redwood: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet in widening student access to higher education. Through Office how many times the UK has lost EU infraction their access agreements with the Office for Fair Access, proceedings since May 2010 which relate to matters institutions plan by 2018/19 to increase their spending that fall within his Department’s responsibility. [206650] 261W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 262W

Mr Maude: Since May 2010 the UK has not lost any Mr Ellwood: Bahrain is a country case study in the EU infraction proceedings falling within the responsibility Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s human rights report, of the Cabinet Office. and as such we continue to monitor the human rights situation there and issue a biannual update. Bahrain’s Government Departments: Data Protection designation as a country case study in the 2013 FCO Annual Report on Human Rights and Democracy Report strikes an appropriate balance between the undoubted Anas Sarwar: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet progress made in some areas and our continuing concerns Office what steps the Government is taking to ensure in others. We will review all countries with human rights the protection of personal data held by private companies issues in our preparation for the 2014 Annual Report, operating Government-shared services. [207435] which will be published in early 2015. Bahrain is making substantial progress in respect of political reforms and Mr Maude: As with all outsourcing arrangements, will continue to receive our support. security and information assurance measures are being implemented in line with the Government’s Information Assurance Standards, Good Practice Guides, Government Business: Human Rights Security Policy Framework and Data Protection Act. These Government security requirements were introduced under the previous Government and applied to outsourcing Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for then. All shared services data will be handled, processed Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which HM embassies and transmitted in accordance with these security and high commissions have a designated contact for the requirements, taking into consideration clients’ security strategy for supporting human rights defenders working policies. on issues related to business and human rights. [207472]

Government Departments: Procurement Mr Lidington: Our network of diplomatic posts provide support for human rights defenders on a full range of human rights issues, including business and human Meg Hillier: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet rights. Office what proportion of central Government procurement spend was with small and medium-sized enterprises on 21 August 2014. [207479] Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with which companies Mr Maude: Overall Government spend with SMEs (a) Ministers in his Department and (b) HM embassies has increased from £3 billion in 2009/10 to £4.5 billion and high commissions have discussed the UK Action in 2012/13, putting us on track to deliver our aspiration Plan on Business and Human Rights in the last year. of awarding 25% of central Government business to [207473] small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) by 2015. Figures for 2013-14 will be published in the autumn. Mr Lidington: We regularly raise business and human rights, and the UK National Action Plan with a range Public Sector: Business Interests of UK companies, trade associations and other relevant bodies at ministerial and official level, both in the UK and through our global network of diplomatic posts. Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office whether the Business Appointment Rules for Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for public servants relate to (a) appointments in (i) NGOs, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment (ii) charities and (iii) other non-commercial he has made of the effects of the Government’s Action organisations and (b) unpaid positions. [207503] Plan on Business and Human Rights in the last year on the (a) conduct, planning and composition of Mr Maude: The Business Appointment Rules apply Ministerial-led trade delegations and (b) operations to those people employed in civil service, the diplomatic overseas of British businesses. [207474] service and members of the armed services, whether the employment is paid or unpaid. Mr Lidington: Following the publication of the National Action Plan (NAP), we have ensured that all trade delegations are briefed on business and human rights and that companies are made aware of relevant human FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE rights risks and challenges relating to all markets. We have re-launched the Overseas Business Risk website to Bahrain help companies mitigate business risk and seek to ensure, in accordance with the aims of the NAP, that the Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for operations of all UK businesses, wherever they operate, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment respect their responsibilities for human rights. he has made of the Foreign Affairs Committee’s recommendation in the Fifth Report of Session 2013-14, Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for The UK’s Relations with Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his HC 88, paragraph 214, that Bahrain should be designated Department has taken to improve access to remedies for as a country of concern if no significant progress had victims of human rights abuses involving UK business been made by the start of 2014. [207489] operating overseas. [207475] 263W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 264W

Mr Lidington: We are committed to improving access The UK could not support this resolution, but recognising the to remedy within the UN Working Group on Business strength of feeling about the loss of life and the desire by a large and Human Rights and we are also in close contact number of members of the Council to express that feeling in a with the Office of the High Commissioner for Human resolution, the UK joined other EU nations in abstaining in the vote.” Rights (OHCHR). This will be one of the themes for this year’s United Nations Forum on Business and Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Human Rights. We are also working on implementing for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent our National Action Plan (NAP), which includes supporting assessment he has made of the proposals for a lasting projects on access to remedy through the Human Rights ceasefire in Gaza. [207522] and Democracy Programme Fund (HRDPF) and advising companies on establishing or participating in grievance Mr Ellwood: As I said in my statement of Tuesday 26 mechanisms, and will keep the UK provision of remedy August welcoming the ceasefire agreement: under review. “I welcome the agreement by all parties to a ceasefire. I pay Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for tribute to the Government of Egypt for their work to secure this Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what support his important step. The ceasefire provides a critical and welcome window of opportunity for reaching a comprehensive agreement, Department has provided to help UK businesses that tackles the underlying causes of the conflict. uphold their responsibilities to international human These discussions are not easy, but there is no viable alternative. rights in the last year. [207476] The international community stands ready to assist.”

Mr Lidington: The government continues to provide Qatar support and help to British companies worldwide. We have re-launched the Overseas Business Risk website to inform companies so that they may mitigate business Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for risk in exports and investment overseas; issued guidance Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his to all embassies and high commissions on how to Department is taking to address the treatment of workers conduct business and human rights overseas; worked in Qatar during the construction of World Cup 2022 with the financial sector to support focus on human venues. [905123] rights reporting and increased transparency for investors; and we are due to launch guidance for the ICT sector Mr Ellwood: I raised our concerns with the Qatari on human rights risks related to cyber exports. authorities on 24 July. We welcome the serious manner in which the Qatari Government is responding to concerns Israel and fully support Qatar’s intention to reform the current labour law. We are encouraging the Government of Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Qatar to put forward a timetable for passing and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment implementing the proposed legislation and stand ready he has made of the potential merits of introducing a to support these efforts where we can. ban on the sales of UK arms to Israel. [207521] Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Ellwood: We do not believe that imposing a Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions blanket arms embargo on Israel would promote progress the Government has had with Qatar’s Supreme in the Middle East Peace Process. All countries, including Committee for Delivery and Legacy on the safety and Israel, have a legitimate right to self-defence, and the wellbeing of migrant workers preparing that country right to defend their citizens from attack. In doing so, it for the 2022 World Cup. [905136] is vital that all actions are proportionate, in line with international humanitarian law, and are calibrated to Mr Ellwood: We have raised our concerns about the avoid civilian casualties. Defence and security exports safety and well-being of migrant workers with the Supreme support states’ legitimate right to self-defence, security Committee for Delivery and Legacy at ministerial and and law and order. The UK has one of the most robust ambassadorial level. We welcome the serious manner in licensing systems in the world. which the Qatari Government is responding to concerns and fully support Qatar’s intention to reform the current Middle East labour law. We are encouraging the Government of Qatar to put forward a timetable for passing and Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for implementing the proposed legislation and stand ready Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs for what reason to support these efforts where we can. the UK abstained from voting on the motion entitled, Ensuring respect for international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem at the 21st Special Session of the UN Human Rights COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Council. [207437] Billing Mr Ellwood: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend, the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond) issued Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for a press release on 23 July stating that: Communities and Local Government what the value is “Today’s UN Human Rights Council resolution will not help of duplicate supplier payments identified by his Department achieve a lasting ceasefire. It is fundamentally unbalanced and since 2010; and what proportion of such payments have will complicate the process by introducing unnecessary new since been recovered in each of the last two financial mechanisms. years. [205967] 265W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 266W

Kris Hopkins: In my Department’s publication “50 ways Kris Hopkins: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer to save”, we asserted that councils could save money by given by the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster conducting audits of potential duplicate payments and General, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham reforming accounts payable processes. This was based (Mr Maude), on 2 September 2014, Official Report, on research by Experian of both local and central column 230W. government bodies. DCLG aim to respond to all correspondence within In the answer by my hon. Friend the Member for 10 working days. Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis) of 5 November 2013, Official Report, column 145W, it was noted how our Non-domestic Rates Department has itself undertaken such best practice, and had duly recovered £61,301 of taxpayers’ money from 20 duplicate payments for the period May 2010 to Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for October 2013, apart from a sum of £257 which was not Communities and Local Government (1) what recoverable from three payments. A further £32,000 was proportion of premises on the rating list have a rateable recovered from historic duplicate payments made between value of less than £50,000; [207516] 2006 and 2009. I also would note there were £7,018 of (2) what estimate he has made of how much of the duplicate payments from January to April 2010. government receipt from business rates forecast for 2014-15 will be contributed by businesses with a Since that answer, our ongoing internal processes rateable value lower than £18,000; [207517] have identified a further £7,492 from four transactions from November 2013 to March 2014, all of which have (3) what estimate he has made of how much of the been recovered thanks to our strengthened checks. government receipt from business rates forecast for 2014-15 will be contributed by food and drink business We have previously commissioned business analytics with a rateable value lower than £50,000; [207518] and information services firm, PRGX, to carry out a full spend-recovery audit on our accounts payable system (4) what estimate he has made of how much of the and help us further improve and reform administrative government receipt from business rates forecast for practices. PRGX’s audit report has subsequently noted 2014-15 will be contributed by businesses with a that 99.999% of the transaction value reviewed was rateable value lower than £50,000. [207519] processed correctly, and that: Kris Hopkins: We have introduced a £1 billion business “DCLG have been effective in limiting supplier overpayments. The low rate of errors identified by the audit and statement rate support package for 2014-15 including: request process indicates the current processes and controls continue a 2% cap in the Retail Price Index increase; to limit supplier overpayments.” a discount of £1,000 for around 300,000 shops, pubs and This sizeable saving endorses what we said in “50 ways restaurants with rateable values below £50,000; to save”: regularly checking for duplicate payments and doubling small business rate relief extended for another year putting systematic checks in place is a common-sense benefitting over half a million businesses; way of saving taxpayers’ money in both local and a 50% discount for new occupants of long-term vacant shops; central government. and allowing ratepayers to pay bills over 12 instalments. Buildings This package will benefit all businesses but particularly those with a lower rateable value. Local authority forecasts of business rates are not available split by rateable value Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for threshold or business sector. Communities and Local Government how much has been spent on refurbishing (a) gymnasium and leisure As at 31 March 2013, 89% of hereditaments had a facilities, (b) cafeteria and (c) interior decoration in (i) rateable value of £50,000 or lower. As at 31 March his Department and (ii) buildings owned by his Department 2013, large properties (those with a rateable value equal to or greater than £50,000) account for 72% of rateable in (A) 2013 and (B) 2014 to date. [205353] value. These data are taken from the Valuation Office Agency’s disclosure log, available at the following link: Kris Hopkins: The Department for Communities and http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/About/Policy/ Local Government has not spent any money on refurbishing disclosureLogResponses2013.html gymnasium and leisure facilities, cafeterias and interior decoration during 2013 and 2014. Performance Appraisal This is in contrast to the record of the last Labour Government, which, for example, spent £134,503 in 2009-10 on luxury sofas by the Parisian designers Ronan Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for and Erwan Bouroullec, and a further £83,506 on a Communities and Local Government what proportion ‘serene green’ tranquillity room. of (a) disabled and (b) all other staff employed by his Department received each level of performance rating in their end of year performance assessment for Correspondence 2013-14. [202050]

Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Kris Hopkins: The following table provides a summary Communities and Local Government whether he has of the performance results for non-Senior Civil Service any plans to increase the number of replies within his staff for whom the DCLG process applied, where disability Department’s working day standard; and if he will has been declared, and whose performance markings make a statement. [206475] have been entered into the HR database: 267W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 268W

Rewarding councils for bringing empty homes back into use Development through the New Homes Bonus. Since April 2011, councils have Number of staff Exceptional Good Needed received over £2.2 billion for bringing empty homes back into Not Disabled 217 824 94 residential occupation. Disabled 7 45 15 Giving councils new powers to remove council tax subsidies to empty homes, and use the funds to keep the overall rate of council tax down. HM Treasury have also changed tax rules to discourage Due to changes in methodology in the manner in the use of corporate envelopes to invest in high value housing which such assessments are undertaken, these figures which may be left empty or under-used to avoid paying tax. are not comparative with those given to the hon. Member Cancelling the Labour Government’s Pathfinder programme in the answer to her of 4 November 2013, Official which sought to demolish homes, instead of focusing on refurbishment and getting empty homes into use. We have taken forward the best Report, column 22W. practice guidance produced by our independent adviser, George The small sample sizes may mean the results are not Clarke, and embedded it in our housing programme funding schemes. statistically significant. We will be undertaking further Reforming Community Infrastructure Levy rules to provide an analysis of the wider performance outcomes across increased incentive for brownfield development, and extending both performance years and all protected characteristics. exemptions for empty buildings being brought back into use. We We will consider whether action is required to address have also been consulting on proposals to lift Section 106 burdens any clear findings. on vacant buildings being returned to use. Introducing the Right to Contest, building on our existing The Department provides a reasonable adjustments Community Right to Reclaim Land, which lets communities ask service, which has recently been subject to a review, to that under-used or unused land owned by public bodies is brought allow staff to ensure that a person with a disability is back into beneficial use. This new right applies to sites currently not put at a substantial disadvantage compared to in use, but are not vital for operations. It gives businesses and non-disabled persons generally, who work under the members of the public an opportunity to challenge government same conditions. The Department’s Disability Champion on the best use of its estate. also continues to work closely with the Disability Staff Reforming permitted development rights in a number of ways Network in raising awareness of disability issues to the to free up the planning system and facilitate the conversion of wider Department. redundant and under-used non-residential buildings into new homes.

LEADER OF THE HOUSE Vacancies: Greater London Television

Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Leader of the House how Communities and Local Government what estimate the much his Office spent on the purchase of televisions in Department has made of the number of private sector (a) 2013 and (b) 2014 to date. [207221] vacancies in London. [205068] Mr Hague: The Office of the Leader of the House of Commons is part of the Cabinet Office. Our answer is Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for included in the response by the Minister for the Cabinet Communities and Local Government what steps he is Office. taking to bring empty (a) residential and (b) commercial properties back into use. [200781]

JUSTICE Stephen Williams: Reflecting commitments made in the coalition agreement, getting empty and redundant Coroners buildings back into use is a key priority for this Government. Under the coalition Government, the number of empty Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for homes in England has so far fallen to a 10 year low: Justice on how many occasions since May 2010 a Rule The number of long-term empty homes has fallen by a third 43 ruling has been used in coronial verdicts. [207456] from 316,251 in October 2009 to 216,050 in October 2013. The overall number of empty homes (all types) has fallen by a Simon Hughes: The Ministry of Justice had responsibility fifth from 770,496 in October 2009 to 635,127 in October 2013. for reports made under rule 43 of the Coroners Rules In London, the number of empty homes has fallen by a third, 1984 (as amended) until 31 March 2013 when responsibility from 85,062 in October 2009 to 59,313 in October 2013. was transferred to the Chief Coroner. In coroner reform legislation implemented on 25 July 2013 Rule 43 reports A breakdown by local authority, including public were superseded by reports to prevent future deaths. As sector tenure, can be found in Live Table 615. set out in the following table, a total of 1,952 reports made www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live-tables-on- under rule 43 of the Coroners Rules 1984 (as amended) dwelling-stock-including-vacants and reports to prevent future deaths were issued by But there is more to do. The coalition Government coroners between 1 April 2010 and 25 July 2014. has a comprehensive package of policies to help get A summary of reports made from 17 July 2008 (when empty homes and buildings back into use. They include: the 1984 Rules were amended) to 31 March 2013 is Funding a £235 million empty homes programme to help local available at: communities in restoring empty properties, both residential and https://www.justice.gov.uk/coroners-burial-cremation/coroners/ commercial, and helping provide new homes. rule-43 269W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 270W

A summary of reports made from 1 April to Reporting period Number of reports issued 30 September 2013 is available at: http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/related-offices-and-bodies/office- Total 1,952 chief-coroner/summary-of-reports-to-pfds/ 1 Not yet published by the Chief Coroner’s office. which is the website where the Chief Coroner will in due course publish information on the number of reports issued since 30 September 2013. Drugs: Sentencing

Reporting period Number of reports issued Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people have been sentenced to prison 1 April 2010 to 30 September 2010 175 as a result of possession of illegal substances, by class 1 October 2010 to 31 March 2011 189 of substance, since 2010. [206953] 1 April 2011 to 30 September 2011 210 1 October 2011 to 31 March 2012 233 Mike Penning: The number of offenders found guilty 1 April 2012 to 30 September 2012 186 and sentenced to immediate custody at all courts for 1 October 2012 to 31 March 2013 235 offences of possession of a controlled drug, broken 1 April 2013 to 30 September 2013 244 down by class of drug, in England and Wales, from 1 October 2013 to 25 July 20141 480 2009 to 2013, can be viewed in the table.

Offenders found guilty and sentenced at all courts for possession of a controlled drug1, by class of drug, England and Wales, 2009 to 20132,3,4 Class of Drug Outcome 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013

Class A Found guilty 13,742 12,254 10,702 9,793 9,554 Sentenced 13,670 12,175 10,599 9,707 9,426 of which: Immediate custody 776 779 630 573 545

Class B Found guilty 21,788 29,450 30,836 28,870 27,808 Sentenced 21,610 29,251 30,179 28,710 27,535 of which: Immediate custody 371 500 622 557 541

Class C Found guilty 5,796 1,687 1,605 1,173 1,157 Sentenced 5,798 1,709 1,617 1,167 1,159 of which: Immediate custody 127 60 79 31 55

Class unspecified Found guilty 16 15 19 0 0 Sentenced 27 23 21 0 0 of which: Immediate custody 13 3200 1 An offence under Section 5(2) of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. 2 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 4 The number of offenders sentenced can differ from those found guilty as it may be the case that a defendant found guilty in a particular year, and committed for sentence at the Crown Court, may be sentenced in the following year. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice

Nature Conservation: Crime (which came into force on 1 April 2010), in England and Wales, from 2010 to 2013 (latest available) can be viewed in the table. Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people have been (a) arrested, (b) Arrest data is not held by the Ministry of Justice. cautioned, (c) proceeded against and (d) convicted of Offenders cautioned1 and defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and an offence under the provisions of the Conservation of found guilty all courts for offences under the Conservation of Habitats and Habitats and Species Regulations 2010 in each year Species Regulations 2010, England and Wales, 2010 to 20132, 3 since their enactment. [204551] Outcome 2010 2011 2012 2013 Mike Penning: The number of offenders cautioned and defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts Cautions 0 0 0 0 and found guilty at all courts of offences under the Proceeded 0136 Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations 2010 against 271W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 272W

Offenders cautioned1 and defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts and Bost Agricultural Business Park found guilty all courts for offences under the Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations 2010, England and Wales, 2010 to 20132, 3 Outcome 2010 2011 2012 2013 9. Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Found guilty 0 0 3 3 International Development for what reasons she decided 1 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force nationally to end her Department’s role in the Bost agricultural and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and replaced them with business park project in Afghanistan in 2012. [905132] reprimands and warnings. These figures have been included in the totals. 2 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has Justine Greening: The Bost Agricultural Business Park been cautioned for or found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for was approved in 2009 at a time when Ministers did not which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory approve spend under £40 million. In 2012 it became maximum penalty is the most severe. clear that the project would not be completed within the 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and original timeframe and in good order. To avoid wasting complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police taxpayers’ money I decided that further UK funding forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection should be cancelled. processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Note: Regulations came into force on 1 April 2010 Afghanistan Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services-Ministry of Justice. Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Sentencing International Development (1) pursuant to the answer of 10 July 2014, Official Report, column 414W, on Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan and with reference to the answer of Justice how much his Department has spent on 5 September 2013, Official Report, column 461W, on providing non-stipendiary magistrates with electronic Afghanistan, for what reasons she considers the publication copies of Sentencing Guidelines and updates thereof of official agreements signed by her Department to be free of charge; and what plans his Department has to covered by her Department’s policy on the publication provide non-stipendiary magistrates with electronic of internal discussions; [206959] copies of Sentencing Guidelines and updates thereof (2) what Memorandum of Understanding was free of charge. [206323] reached between USAID and her Department on the transfer of the Bost Agri Park and Bost Airfield from Mike Penning: The Government Electronic versions USAID control to her Department’s control in 2009. of all sentencing guidelines and updates are currently [206962] available at no cost on the Council’s website: www.sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk Justine Greening: The Bost industrial business park The cost incurred in producing these electronic versions proposal was originally approved by officials in 2009 at of the Magistrates’ Court Sentencing Guidelines is minimal a time when Ministers did not approve spend under and arises from the staff time from the Ministry of £40 million. In 2012 it became clear that the project Justice design team and the staff time of the Office of could no longer be completed within the original timeframe the Sentencing Council. and in good order. To avoid wasting taxpayers’ money I By spring 2015, as part of the digitisation of the decided that UK funding for the project should be criminal justice system, magistrates will be able to access cancelled. The completed park designs have been handed sentencing guidelines via a link from a hand-held device over to the Afghan authorities to enable them to pursue to the Sentencing Council’s website. This will ensure the project over a revised time frame. DFID’s work on that magistrates will always have access to the most up Bost Airfield was completed in November 2013. to date version of the guidelines. There was no Memorandum of Understanding signed in 2009.

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Buildings

Gaza Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development if she will review her 8. Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State departmental estate in order to reduce costs; and if she for International Development what help she plans to will make a statement. [206691] give to children in Gaza who require support to deal with trauma related to bombing. [905131] Mr Swayne: DFID has reviewed its UK estate which resulted in a move from 1 Palace Street, Victoria to Mr Swayne: More than half of DFID’s £3 million 22 Whitehall. The move was completed on time and Rapid Response Facility is supporting the provision of more than £1 million under budget. health and psycho-social care for women and children. The relocation will save HMG £62.5 million in rent DFID also supports the UN Relief and Works Agency, and rates by 2020. The move also heralded a new, more who are deploying counsellors to all Gaza shelters to business-like approach from the department, with more mitigate the impact of psychological trauma sustained efficient use of office space and flexible working practices by civilians. saving even more money in the longer term. 273W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 274W

EU Law Tanzania

Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how many times the UK International Development which companies in has lost EU infraction proceedings since May 2010 Tanzania have received how much in funding from her which relate to matters that fall within her Department’s Department since 2010. [207440] responsibility. [206660] Lynne Featherstone: Information on DFID’s projects in Tanzania is available on the Development Tracker Lynne Featherstone: There have been no EU infraction website: proceedings against the UK in matters that fall within http://devtracker.dfid.gov.uk/ my Department’s responsibility. A more detailed breakdown cannot be provided without incurring disproportionate costs. Malawi Uganda Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development if she will make UK aid to Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Malawi conditional on the repeal of laws which discriminate International Development if she will make UK against LGBT people; and if she will make a statement. development aid to Uganda conditional on the repeal of laws in that country which discriminate against LGBT [206668] people; and if she will make a statement. [206639] Lynne Featherstone: The UK is not currently providing Lynne Featherstone: The UK suspended all budget any aid to the Government of Malawi. At the end of support to the Government of Uganda in 2013. After 2013, the UK suspended all funding going through the Anti-Homosexuality Act was passed we assessed Malawi government systems following revelations of our programme to ensure that UK aid was not being wide-spread fraud and corruption involving public finances. provided to organisations that proactively and publically promoted the legislation. St Helena The UK welcomes the decision of the Ugandan Constitutional Court to annul the Anti-Homosexuality Act. Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development whether the new airport terminal on St Helena will be equipped with (a) a biosecurity scanner and (b) a secure biosecurity facility. [206525] WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Procurement Mr Swayne: The Department for International Development is currently considering proposals from Sadiq Khan: To ask the Ministers for Women and the St Helena Government on biosecurity management Equalities how much and what proportion of the at the new airport terminal building, including the use Government Equalities Office’s budget was spent on of a biosecurity scanner and any associated facilities. activities which were contracted out in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11, (c) 2011-12, (d) 2012-13 and (e) 2013-14; Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for and how much and what proportion of the Government International Development what steps are being taken Equalities Office’s budget he expects to be contracted to protect the mole spider population at Bradleys in the out in 2014-15. [205216] airport development area of St Helena. [206526] Jo Swinson: I refer the right hon. Member to the Mr Swayne: No construction work is planned within answer given on 2 September 2014, Official Report, the mole spider habitat at Bradley’s and the area is column 201W, by the Minister for Sport and Tourism, protected from any construction-related activity. the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Environmental officers carry out checks to ensure Grant). The figures for 2013-14 and 2014-15 for DCMS compliance. included figures for the Government Equalities Office (GEO). Within those totals, the figures for the GEO are:

Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Proportion of International Development what change there has been contracted-out in energy prices on St Helena in each of the last four Contracted-out expenditure to Budget years; and what estimate she has made of changes in Financial year expenditure (£000) (percentage) such prices in each of the next three years. [206527] Actuals 2013-14 2,252 *26 Mr Swayne: From April 2010 to April 2014 the unit price of electricity per kilowatt hour in St Helena increased Forecast by 2.5p, 1.75p, 1.9p and 0.8p in each respective financial 2014-15 2,782 42 year: increasing the unit price for median consumption * The percentage value is calculated against a proportion of the GEO budget rates over this period from 15p to 22p per kilowatt hour. which excludes grant payments and internal payment transfers between Departments. Note: Future energy prices on St Helena will be decided by For prior years the Department does not hold this information, as the GEO the island’s private utility company and regulator. used the expertise of the Home Office and Government Procurement Service. 275W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 276W

WORK AND PENSIONS Jobseeker’s Allowance

Employment and Support Allowance Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what average length of time his Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Department takes to process applications for hardship Work and Pensions what the average time was between payments; and what targets he has set for the (a) an employment and support allowance applicant processing of such claims. [207487] submitting an ESA 50 questionnaire and undergoing a work capability assessment, (b) an employment and Esther McVey: The information requested is not available. support allowance applicant undergoing a work Our expectation is that claimants who are vulnerable capability assessment and advice being submitted to a will receive a hardship payment, if appropriate, within decision-maker and (c) advice being submitted to a three days of them requesting hardship. We have no decision-maker and a decision being issued to an targets for the processing of hardship applications. employment and support allowance applicant in each year since 2008. [207460] Personal Independence Payment

Mr Harper: The information requested is not readily Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work available and to provide it would incur disproportionate and Pensions what mean length of time between a cost. personal independence payment claim being registered and a decision being made was on (a) claims not made Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for under special rules for terminally ill people and (b) Work and Pensions how many mandatory reconsideration claims made under special rules for terminally ill periods for employment and support allowance his people where the decision was taken between April Department has conducted to date; what the outcomes 2013 and March 2014. [207331] were of each such case; and what the (a) shortest, (b) average and (c) longest periods were. [207486] Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what estimate he has made of the Mr Harper: The Department is collecting information average waiting time for personal independence payments to understand how the introduction of mandatory assessments in each of the last 12 months; [207356] reconsideration is operating, including completion (2) what estimate he has made of the number of timescales. However, this data is not sufficiently robust applicants for personal independence payments who and reliable to make available. have waited longer than 26 weeks for an assessment in The Department has committed to publishing the each of the last 12 months. [207357] statistics when the Departmental Statisticians judge that the data meet the standards set out in the UK Mr Harper: Statistics on the time taken to clear cases Statistics Authorities Codes of Practice. are intended for future publication and the Department’s analysts are currently considering what information will Independent Living Fund be included in the release.

Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will undertake a separate impact and Pensions how many people with Parkinson’s assessment of the closure of the Independent Living disease (a) have applied for personal independence Fund on demand for (a) NHS and (b) social care payments (PIPs), (b) are receiving PIPs and (c) have services. [207484] been refused PIPs. [207496]

Mr Harper: The Equality Analysis setting out the Mr Harper: Available data does not provide the number implications of closing the Independent Living Fund of people with Parkinson’s disease who have (a) applied was published on 6 March 2014. for Personal Independence Payment (b) are receiving Personal Independence Payment (c) have been refused Jobcentre Plus Personal Independence Payment. However, published statistics show that at February 2014 there were 2,831 Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for people entitled to PIP for Neurological Conditions, Work and Pensions how many computers have been which would include those who have Parkinson’s disease. installed for use in Jobcentre Plus offices in the UK in 2014-15; and what estimate he has made of the number Social Security Benefits of computers so installed by the end of the current financial year. [207488] Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what progress has been made on making Esther McVey: The Digital Jobcentres project is statistics on mandatory reconsiderations for jobseeker’s modernising the Jobcentre digital infrastructure by allowance and employment and support allowance publicly delivering wi-fi and web access devices (WADs) across available. [207337] the Jobcentre network. From now until the end of October, we will be installing wi-fi and new web access Mr Harper: DWP statisticians are currently working devices (WADs) across the Jobcentre network. By the to collate and quality assure data on Mandatory end of October, around 6,000 WADs will have been Reconsideration for Employment and Support Allowance installed in jobcentres across the UK. as a matter of urgency. The Department has committed 277W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 278W to publishing the statistics when the Departmental Esther McVey: It is not possible to release financial statisticians judge that the data meet the standards set data below the national level within the duration of the out in the UK Statistics Authority’s Codes of Practice. Work programme, as this could put at risk some of the commercial in confidence elements of the contracts. Social Security Benefits: Disability

Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Work CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT and Pensions whether people with mental health conditions may be refused disability benefits on the Global Radio grounds that their condition does not require the use of aides. [207471] Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if he will investigate the time Mr Harper: Eligibility for the two main working age taken by Ofcom to come to a decision on complaints disability benefits—Personal Independence Payment (PIP) submitted in 2013 about unapproved format changes to and Employment and Support Allowance (ESA)—is the Choice FM radio station now operated by Global assessed through two separate assessments. However, Radio; and what information he holds on when Ofcom common to both is that they look at disabled people as plans to respond to those complaints. [206764] individuals, and do not label them by their health condition, impairment or disability. Mr Vaizey: This is an operational matter for Ofcom, The PIP assessment considers the impact of an the independent communications regulator. DCMS officials individual’s condition on their ability to carry out some have spoken to Ofcom and have been informed that key everyday activities. Similarly ESA looks to determine Ofcom has been investigating complaints about the not what condition an individual has but rather how current output of Choice FM and, in doing so, has had that condition impacts on the individual’s functional to consider a significant amount of material. Ofcom is capacity to work. currently finalising its decision and will publish this Both assessments include descriptors which take account very shortly. of physical, sensory, mental, intellectual and cognitive Lotteries impairments. Claimants for either benefit—whether with a mental health condition, physical condition or both—will not be refused benefit simply because they do not Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for require an aide, advocate or appointee. Culture, Media and Sport on what occasions Ministers from his Department have met (a) representatives of Telephone Services society lotteries and (b) representatives of Camelot or the National Lottery since December 2012. [206678]

Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Mrs Grant: Details of ministerial meetings are published Pensions under what timetable his Department plans to quarterly on the gov.uk website and are available at: phase out use of telephone lines with the prefix (a) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications?keywords=& 0845, 0844 and 0843 in accordance with the Cabinet publication_filter_option=transparency- Office guidance on customer service lines published in data&topics%5B%5D December 2013 and (b) 03 and 08, where 03 is the primary =all&departments%5B%5D=department-for-culture-media- number under a dual numbering system. [207288] sport&official_document_status=all&world_locations%5B%5D =all&from_date=&to_date Esther McVey: DWP has committed to introduce 0345 numbers and this started on major helplines in March 2014. The Department does not operate any prefixes that begin with 0844 or 0843. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS For its inquiry helplines, the Department will begin Agriculture: Subsidies adding the choice of 0345 numbers to their 0845 helplines where its customers call for other reasons, and these are Rory Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for calls that typically take less time to resolve. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many farms Ofcom proposals for implementing change to 08 in Cumbria which received payments under the (a) numbers are due to be implemented in June 2015. The Hill Livestock Compensatory Allowance, (b) Sheep changes result in improved charge transparency for Annual Premium Scheme, (c) Hill Farm Allowance some non-geographic numbers including 0845. DWP and (d) Uplands Entry Level Stewardship Scheme in will monitor the impact these changes have on 08 charges. each of the last 30 years; and what aggregate local payments were made under each scheme in each such Work Programme year. [207462]

Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work George Eustice: The Rural Payments Agency does and Pensions with reference to the answer of 8 April not hold assured data for the time period and area 2014, Official Report, column 220W, on the Work requested. As the majority of these schemes ended Programme, what the cost is of paying a second some time ago, and a new finance system was introduced attachment fee for persons transferred from Newcastle in the intervening period, extracting this historic information College to new providers; and what other additional is not possible. costs his Department incurs as a result of that transfer. The agency does not hold this level of historic payment [207491] information for Uplands Entry Level Stewardship. 279W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 280W

Food Supply Networks Review Anna Soubry: Absent Without Leave (AWOL) information is recorded by the Royal Military Police on Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for their REDCAP system. The number of soldiers recorded Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the as AWOL in each of the last five completed calendar answer to Lord Rooker of 11 August 2014, HL1378, on years is: the food supply networks review, for what reasons Professor Elliott’s final report on horsemeat fraud and 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 the food supply networks review has not yet been published; and if she will make a statement. [207528] Total 2,135 1,991 1,457 1,062 815 George Eustice: The Government believes that the Each incidence of AWOL is recorded as a separate report is important, which is why the Secretary of State entry. As such if an individual has been AWOL three wanted to review it thoroughly and meet Professor Elliott times during a year this will be recorded as three separate before its publication. The Government also wanted to instances of AWOL. publish the report when Parliament was sitting. Professor To provide the age of each individual would require a Elliott’s report is due to be published soon. manual check of every AWOL record and as such could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Slaughterhouses

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Telephone Services Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will commission a study to assess the extent of mis-stunning at the point Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence of animal slaughter in the UK. [207157] under what timetable his Department plans to phase-out use of telephone lines with the prefix (a) 0845, 0844 George Eustice: I refer the hon. Member to the answer and 0843 in accordance with the Cabinet Office guidance I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and on customer service lines published in December 2013 Golders Green (Mike Freer) on 1 April 2014, Official and (b) 03 and 08, where 03 is the primary number Report, column 600W. under a dual numbering system. [207451] Telephone Services Anna Soubry: The Ministry of Defence’s (MOD) Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for customer service lines cover a number of areas in three Environment, Food and Rural Affairs under what timetable main categories: her Department plans to phase-out use of telephone (1) Services for Veterans are provided through a well-publicised lines with the prefix (a) 0845, 0844 and 0843 in accordance free help line (0808 1914 2 18); with the Cabinet Office guidance on customer service (2) Services for existing military staff are available on the lines published in December 2013 and (b) 03 and 08, MOD network. However, on those occasions where staff or their where 03 is the primary number under a dual numbering families need to call from outside the MOD, there are free (eg Army Welfare and Service Family Accommodation), national system. [207453] rate or business rate lines; and Dan Rogerson: Core DEFRA operates three telephone (3) Potential recruits have a choice of ways to communicate lines under a dual numbering system with the prefix with our careers staff, with increasing emphasis on Digital tools such as Live Chat and Social Media. Careers lines for the Army 0345 as the primary number. In accordance with Cabinet are now 03, and for the RAF both 0845 and 03. Royal Navy Office guidance, the 0845 prefix numbers have been Careers are currently business rate (0845), but 03 numbers will be retained for these lines to allow callers a choice based imminently available. on their call package arrangements. There are no plans The MOD does of course have many other numbers, to phase out either the 0845 or 0345 prefixed numbers. which are geographic or business rate (including the Television number for low flying complaints).

Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her Department spent on the purchase of televisions in (a) EDUCATION 2013 and (b) 2014 to date. [207214] Pupils: Disadvantaged Dan Rogerson: The Core Department has spent the following amounts on televisions in the periods specified: (a) £1,559 Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how much pupil premium funding has been (b) £376 allocated to each borough in Lancashire in each year since that scheme’s introduction. [207529]

DEFENCE Mr Laws: The Department for Education does not Armed Forces: Absence Without Leave hold pupil premium allocations broken down by borough. Pupil premium allocations are published each year at Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for top tier local authority, constituency and school level. Defence how many soldiers were recorded as AWOL in The allocations for each year are available online at: each of the last five years; and how many such soldiers 2014-15 were aged (a) 18, (b) 19 and (c) 21 years at the time of www.gov.uk/government/publications/pupil-premium-2014-to- going absent. [207407] 2015-illustrative-allocation-tables 281W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 282W

2013-14 Liverpool Street - Chelmsford - Colchester - Ipswich http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20131216163513/ railway line have overrun causing disruption to the https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pupil-premium- service in each of the last five years; [207447] 2013-to-2014-final-allocation-tables (2) what sanctions have been imposed on Network 2012-13 Rail as a result of engineering works overrunning and http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20131216163513/ causing disruption to the rail service on the London http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/adminandfinance/ Liverpool Street - Chelmsford - Colchester - Ipswich financialmanagement/schoolsrevenuefunding/a00200697/pupil- railway line in the last five years; [207446] premium-2012-13 (3) what sanctions are taken against Network Rail 2011-12 when engineering works overrun causing disruption to http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20131216163513/ the rail network; [207448] http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/adminandfinance/ financialmanagement/schoolsrevenuefunding/ (4) what steps are being taken to minimise the settlement2012pupilpremium/a0075963/pupil-premium-2011-12 overrunning of engineering works on the London The pupil premium allocations for Lancashire for Liverpool Street - Chelmsford - Colchester - Ipswich each year going back to its introduction in 2011-12 are: railway line. [207449] £45.9 million in 2014-15 (provisional based on illustrative pupil numbers), £37.1 million in 2013-14, £21.7 million Claire Perry: Network Rail is responsible for the day in 2012-13, and £12.4 million in 2011-12. to day operation of the rail network and the delivery of enhancements. The independent regulator, the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) will continue to monitor closely TRANSPORT Network Rail’s performance delivery on the Anglia route, which will cover all the causes of delay, including Dangerous Driving the impact of overrunning engineering works. The Track Access Contracts between Network Rail Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for and train operators provide for Network Rail to pay Transport if he will bring forward legislative proposals compensation to an operator in the event that train to introduce a charge of killing or injuring someone services cannot operate or are delayed due to engineering through a hit and run. [207099] works or disruption outside that operator’s control. The Department for Transport does not hold details of the Mr Goodwill: We do not believe it is necessary to timing or number of such payments, which are a commercial create a specific offence of killing or injuring someone matter between the parties directly concerned, overseen during a hit and run incident. This is because a range of by the ORR. The ORR publishes the annual totals of offences and penalties already exist to deal with offences these payments at route level on its data portal: committed on the roads and this can include manslaughter https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/ in appropriate cases. The offence of causing death by 345da3b9-b9ac-449a-aace-8298c5b39e2b dangerous driving carries a maximum penalty of 14 years The ORR concluded its assessment of Network Rail’s imprisonment. In 2012 the Government also introduced performance between 2009 and 2014 in July. Since a new offence of causing serious injury through dangerous Network Rail did not deliver its funded obligations, and driving which carries a maximum penalty of 5 years to address issues which have disrupted services for imprisonment. passengers, the company has committed at least £25 million extra funds to improve the resilience of the Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for network in London and the South East, with plans to Transport how many recorded hit and run incidents be in place by December. In the Long Distance sector, involving (a) injury and (b) death there have been in the company fell significantly short of its funded target. each of the last five years. [207107] Under an order made by the ORR in 2012, taking account of issues beyond Network Rail’s control, the Mr Goodwill: The numbers of reported personal injury company has been asked to return £53.1 million to road accidents involving at least one hit and run driver funders for failure to deliver its agreed obligations in by accident severity for the years 2009 to 2013 are 2013-14. The Government is reinvesting this sum to shown in the table. improve on-train mobile services for passengers. Number of reported personal injury accidents involving at least one hit and run driver, by severity: GB, 2009-2013 Number of accidents involving at least one hit and run driver Insurance Fatal Serious Slight Total

2009 78 1,569 15,382 17,029 2010 57 1,465 14,879 16,401 Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport 2011 73 1,610 15,160 16,843 on how many occasions he has met representatives of 2012 75 1,579 14,008 15,662 the insurance industry in the last 12 months; and what 2013 57 1,448 13,885 15,390 issues were discussed at those meetings. [207149]

East Anglia Railway Line Mr Goodwill: The Secretary of State has not personally met with the insurance industry in the past year. However, Mr Simon Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for I regularly meet with insurers to discuss road safety and Transport (1) on how many occasions engineering how we can make motor insurance more affordable to works carried out by Network Rail on the London the public. 283W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 284W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE informed Campsfield House operators Mitie of the advice of the Oxfordshire Fire Service that sprinklers Fracking should be fitted there. [206468]

Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Karen Bradley: The Chief Fire Officer of Oxfordshire Energy and Climate Change how many fracking wrote to the previous operator of Campsfield House, project licences the Government has issued. [207434] GEO, in 2007. Mitie were not made aware of this correspondence before the incident last year. Following Matthew Hancock: There is no such thing as a fracking the incident, sprinklers have now been fitted throughout project licence. the centre. Green Deal Scheme Dangerous Driving

Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (1) how much has been the Home Department how many recorded hit and run allocated to each local authority area under the Green incidents where the driver was (a) caught and (b) not Deal Home Improvement Fund; [207444] caught there have been in each of the last five years. (2) how much was allocated in each Lancashire [207106] borough under the Green Deal Home Improvement Fund. [207443] Mike Penning: The Home Office does not hold data specifically on hit and run incidents, as these cannot be Amber Rudd: The Department published the number separately identified from other offences for which the of Green Deal Home Improvement Fund (GDHIF) Home Office does hold data. As a result, data cannot be active applications, vouchers issued and payments made provided on the number of these incidents where the up to the end of July 2014, in the latest monthly Official driver has or has not been caught. Statistics: Driving Offences: Mobile Phones https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/green-deal-and- energy-company-obligation-eco-monthly-statistics-august-2014 Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for Currently, the Department has not published any the Home Department how many fixed penalty notices geographic breakdowns on the GDHIF, as these would were issued in each region and constituent part of the form part of the more detailed quarterly series: UK for use of hand-held mobile telephones whilst https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/green-deal-and- driving in each of the last five years. [207100] energy-company-obligation-eco-statistics#quarterly-statistics Therefore, the Department will consider publishing Mike Penning: Available data on the total number of geographic breakdowns relating to GDHIF in the following fixed penalty notices issued in each region and in England quarterly release planned for publication on 18 December, and Wales, for the use of a hand-held mobile phone covering the period up to the end of September 2014. whilst driving offence for the years 2008 to 2012, are published within the fixed penalty notices tables within the police powers and procedures, England and Wales, HOME DEPARTMENT 2012/13 statistical release: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/tables-for- Campsfield House Immigration Removal Centre police-powers-and-procedures-england-and-wales-2012-to-2013 For easy reference, data are also provided in the table. Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Figures for Scotland and Northern Ireland are not the Home Department whether her Department collected by the Home Office.

Total fixed penalty notices issued in each region and England and Wales for the use of a hand-held mobile phone whilst driving offence for the years 2008 to 20121, 2, 3 2008 2009 2010 2011 2011p 2012p

London 9,088 7,882 8,177 14,590 25,219 20,963 West Midlands 12,322 12,190 11,294 9,729 9,276 4,545 East Midlands 8,280 8,579 8,611 7,710 7,590 4,948 East of England 18,374 19,074 17,171 15,764 14,845 11,579 North East 4,140 4,653 4,741 3,731 3,607 2,856 North West 19,417 22,370 23,311 20,662 20,052 16,844 South East 19,879 20,491 18,398 15,161 14,656 10,784 South West 7,722 8,868 9,185 7,998 7,640 6,028 Yorkshire & The 12,167 13,056 14,619 12,161 11,949 7,738 Humber England Total 111,389 117,163 115,507 107,506 114,834 86,285 Wales 7,281 8,355 9,221 8,638 8,303 6,380 1 Data for 2011 and 2012 extracted from PentiP (denoted by ’Pentip’ or ’p’ after the year in question) are not directly comparable with data from the previous system and are separated by a blank column. 2 Use of a hand-held mobile phone while driving was introduced as a specific offence from December 2003. 3 Wales Road Casualty Reduction Partnership. These figures include all camera-detected FPNs dealt with in the Dyfed-Powys, Gwent and South Wales police force areas. They cannot currently be separated on the PentiP system. 285W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 286W

Police: Road Traffic Control Number of full-time equivalent1 police officers within the traffic function2, 3 in England and Wales, as at 31 March 2010 to 31 March 20144 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many traffic police officers Warwickshire 10 10 25 39 37 were employed in each police force area in each of the West Mercia 101 88 83 83 80 West 351 298 276 286 282 last five years. [207101] Midlands West 315 296 236 238 225 Mike Penning: The requested data has been published Yorkshire for each year for 2012 to 2014 as part of the July Police Wiltshire 83 76 66 50 44 Workforce publication, but for ease of reference, the Total 5,635 5,329 4,868 4,675 4,356 England and data for the last five years have been drawn together Wales into a single table. 1 This table contains full-time equivalent figures that have been presented to the nearest whole number. The table provided shows the number of full-time 2 Traffic function includes staff who are predominantly employed on motor- equivalent police officers within the traffic function for cycles or in patrol vehicles for the policing of traffic and motorway related each police force area in England and Wales, as at 31 duties. This includes officers employed in accident investigation, vehicle examination and radar duties. Also includes staff who are predominantly March 2010 to 31 March 2014. Staff with multiple employed to support the traffic function of the force including radar, accident responsibilities (or designations) are recorded under investigation, vehicle examination and traffic administration. their primary role or function. Includes those officers working with hazardous chemicals, and those administrative staff predominantly serving the internal needs of the traffic Number of full-time equivalent1 police officers within the traffic function2, 3 in function of the force and those officers in supporting roles. England and Wales, as at 31 March 2010 to 31 March 20144 3 Staff with multiple responsibilities (or designations) are recorded under their 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 primary role or function. This may explain some variability between years. 4 Figures have been confirmed by all police forces after collection and before Avon & 157 147 130 101 96 publication each year. 5 The variation in Essex Police’s figures between 2013 and 2014 is due to a Somerset review of the functionality of roles within the force as part of their Change Bedfordshire 57 56 52 47 46 Programme. Cambridgeshire 101 95 86 85 76 Cheshire 90 76 109 106 89 Security Guards: Licensing Cleveland 115 113 102 100 92 Cumbria 86 87 84 87 82 Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Derbyshire8884756965Home Department (1) if she will take steps to tackle Devon & 239 235 0 0 57 Cornwall the problem of companies offering bogus or limited Dorset7663525047alternatives to the Security Industry Authority licence; Durham 96 91 93 90 83 [207500] Dyfed- 84 83 78 81 77 (2) whether her Department provides support to Powys people with (a) disability and (b) other special needs Essex5 257 227 229 217 76 in meeting the cost of acquiring a Security Industry Gloucestershire 65 62 60 53 48 Authority licence; [207499] Greater 310 296 282 284 248 Manchester (3) if she will make an assessment of whether the Gwent 63 63 72 73 60 cost of acquiring the Security Industry Authority Hampshire 181 172 159 150 145 licence acts as a barrier to people entering the private Hertfordshire 139 132 124 110 99 investigation trade. [207498] Humberside 116 115 110 103 96 Kent 138 138 124 112 101 Karen Bradley: The fee for an individual Security Lancashire 171 159 155 145 142 Industry Authority (SIA) licence to conduct private Leicestershire 86 75 73 67 66 investigations has not yet been confirmed. However, the Lincolnshire 84 79 71 71 71 SIA remains committed to minimising its costs and, in London, 30 34 31 24 25 turn, the fees it charges, to ensure they are proportionate City of to the services provided. Indeed, the cost of an SIA Merseyside 164 176 161 148 136 three-year individual licence for designated private security Metropolitan 297 301 331 306 264 industry sectors was reduced from £245 to £220 in Police January 2012 to reflect the reduced unit costs of processing Norfolk 103 101 100 96 95 applications. Northamptonshire 68 63 61 59 59 Northumbria 189 153 170 144 151 Any changes made to the SIA’s licensing regime are NorthWales8883696770subject to the principles of Managing Public Money North 99 107 99 85 96 and Her Majesty’s Treasury and Home Office Ministers’ Yorkshire approval. As a public sector body the SIA has a duty to Nottinghamshire 47 43 36 16 15 meet the requirements of the Equality Act 2010, including South Wales 143 140 131 125 130 ensuring it does not discriminate against any applicants South 130 121 118 107 111 with protected characteristics, including those with Yorkshire disabilities. Staffordshire6761525849 Suffolk 67 65 56 92 88 Under the provisions of the Private Security Industry Surrey 100 89 94 99 96 Act 2001, the SIA is responsible for licensing individuals Sussex 159 160 150 144 139 who operate in designated sectors of the private security Thames 228 219 207 209 203 industry. If the SIA is made aware of companies deploying Valley individuals without appropriate individual licences it 287W Written Answers3 SEPTEMBER 2014 Written Answers 288W would pursue the company under its enforcement strategy with the Cabinet Office guidance on customer service and prosecute any responsible individuals under the lines both where these have been the primary number or provisions of the Act. have been temporarily retained as secondary number Telephone Services behind a new 03 number. The Home Office and Her Majesty’s Passport Office Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the operates no 0843/0844 numbers. Home Department under what timetable her Department plans to phase-out the use of telephone lines with the The Home Office’s 0845 Nationality Contact / European prefix (a) 0845, 0844 and 0843 in accordance with the Enquiry Line and Asylum support line has been migrated Cabinet Office guidance on customer service lines published to 0300 prefix in March 2014. The original 0845 number in December 2013 and (b) 03 and 08, where 03 is the will be fully decommissioned by 31 December 2014. primary number under a dual numbering system. [207454] Her Majesty’s Passport Office 0845 number for Customer letters migrated to 0300 prefix on 1 September 2014. Karen Bradley: The use of telephone lines with the The original 0845 number will be fully decommissioned prefix 0843, 0844 and 0845 will be phased out in accordance by 31 December 2014. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 3 September 2014

Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 265 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued Ebola Epidemic...... 271 Topical Questions ...... 272 Humanitarian Situation (Northern Iraq) ...... 265 Humanitarian Situation (South Sudan) ...... 270 PRIME MINISTER ...... 273 Relief Effort (Gaza) ...... 267 Engagements...... 273 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 3 September 2014

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 19WS JUSTICE...... 20WS Defence Procurement...... 19WS Crime Reduction Policies ...... 20WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL TRANSPORT ...... 22WS AFFAIRS...... 20WS South West Trains ...... 22WS Extraordinary Agriculture and Fisheries Council .. 20WS TREASURY ...... 19WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 21WS Office for Budget Responsibility (External Immigration Act 2014 (Implementation)...... 21WS Review) ...... 19WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 3 September 2014

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 256W EDUCATION...... 280W EU Law...... 256W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 280W Fraud ...... 256W Police: Surveillance ...... 256W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 283W Prosecutions...... 256W Fracking...... 283W Green Deal Scheme...... 283W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 258W EU External Trade: USA...... 258W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL EU Law...... 259W AFFAIRS...... 278W Private Education...... 259W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 278W Students: Disadvantaged...... 259W Food Supply Networks Review ...... 279W Telephone Services...... 260W Slaughterhouses ...... 279W Telephone Services...... 279W Television...... 279W CABINET OFFICE...... 260W Billing ...... 260W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 261W EU Law...... 260W Bahrain ...... 261W Government Departments: Data Protection ...... 261W Business: Human Rights ...... 262W Government Departments: Procurement ...... 261W Israel...... 263W Public Sector: Business Interests ...... 261W Middle East ...... 263W Qatar...... 264W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 264W Billing ...... 264W HEALTH...... 237W Buildings...... 265W Babies ...... 237W Correspondence ...... 265W Breast Cancer...... 237W Non-domestic Rates...... 266W Buildings...... 237W Performance Appraisal ...... 266W Continuing Care ...... 238W Vacancies: Greater London...... 267W Dental Services ...... 238W Electronic Cigarettes ...... 239W Foetal Death ...... 239W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 278W General Practitioners ...... 240W Global Radio ...... 278W Health Services: Older People ...... 240W Lotteries...... 278W Hospitals: Parking ...... 240W Medicine: Teachers ...... 240W DEFENCE...... 279W Mid Yorkshire Hospitals NHS Trust...... 241W Armed Forces: Absence Without Leave ...... 279W Motor Neurone Disease...... 241W Telephone Services...... 280W NHS: Training ...... 242W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued JUSTICE—continued Nurses...... 242W Drugs: Sentencing...... 270W Paramedical Staff...... 243W Nature Conservation: Crime ...... 269W Parkinson’s Disease ...... 249W Sentencing...... 271W Postnatal Depression...... 251W Poultry Meat: Northern Ireland...... 252W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 268W Pregnant Women: Screening ...... 252W Television...... 268W Prescription Drugs...... 253W School Milk ...... 253W PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION ...... 260W Standardised Packaging for Tobacco Independent Television...... 260W Review ...... 253W Telephone Services...... 254W TRANSPORT ...... 281W Viral Haemorrhagic Disease ...... 254W Dangerous Driving ...... 281W East Anglia Railway Line...... 281W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 283W Insurance ...... 282W Campsfield House Immigration Removal Centre... 283W Dangerous Driving ...... 284W TREASURY ...... 254W Driving Offences: Mobile Phones...... 284W Aggregates Levy: Northern Ireland...... 254W Police: Road Traffic Control ...... 285W Hotels: VAT ...... 255W Security Guards: Licensing ...... 286W Revenue and Customs...... 255W Telephone Services...... 287W Revenue and Customs: Glasgow ...... 255W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 271W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 274W Afghanistan ...... 272W Procurement...... 274W Bost Agricultural Business Park...... 272W Buildings...... 272W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 275W EU Law...... 273W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 275W Gaza ...... 271W Independent Living Fund ...... 275W Malawi...... 273W Jobcentre Plus ...... 275W St Helena ...... 273W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 276W Tanzania ...... 274W Personal Independence Payment...... 276W Uganda ...... 274W Social Security Benefits...... 276W Social Security Benefits: Disability...... 277W JUSTICE...... 268W Telephone Services...... 277W Coroners ...... 268W Work Programme...... 277W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 10 September 2014

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 3 September 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 265] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister

Civil Partnership Act 2004 (Amendment) [Col. 288] Bill presented, and read the First time

Wild Animals in Circuses [Col. 289] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Jim Fitzpatrick)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [5th allotted day] Energy Company Licence Revocation [Col. 292] Motion—(Caroline Flint)—on a Division, negatived Infant Class Sizes [Col. 348] Motion—(Tristram Hunt)—on a Division, negatived

Transport Infrastructure (Northumberland) [Col. 399] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Community Hospitals [Col. 79WH] Renewable Energy Development (Beccles) [Col. 103WH] Adult Learning [Col. 111WH] Waste Management Sites (Fires) [Col. 136WH] Public Health England Hub Programme and Porton Down [Col. 143WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 19WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 237W] [see index inside back page]