House of Commons Communities and Local Government Committee

Codification of the relationship between central and local government

Oral evidence

11 March 2013

Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 11 March 2013

HC 1049-i Published on 17 April 2014 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £4.50 The Communities and Local Government Committee

The Communities and Local Government Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Department for Communities and Local Government and its associated public bodies.

Current membership Mr Clive Betts MP (Labour, Sheffield South-East) (Chair) Bob Blackman MP (Conservative, Harrow East) Simon Danczuk MP (Labour, Rochdale) Mrs Mary Glindon MP (Labour, North Tyneside) David Heyes MP (Labour, Ashton under Lyne) James Morris MP (Conservative, Halesowen and Rowley Regis) Mark Pawsey MP (Conservative, Rugby) John Pugh MP (Liberal Democrat, Southport) John Stevenson MP (Conservative, Carlisle) Heather Wheeler MP (Conservative, South Derbyshire) Chris Williamson MP(Labour, Derby North)

The following member was also a member of the committee when this evidence was taken. Andy Sawford MP (Labour, Corby)

Powers The committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk.

Publication The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/clg. A list of Reports of the Committee in the present Parliament is at the back of this volume.

Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Glenn McKee (Clerk), Sarah Coe (Second Clerk), Stephen Habberley (Inquiry Manager), Kevin Maddison (Committee Specialist), David Nicholas (Senior Committee Assistant), Eldon Gallagher (Committee Support Assistant), David Foster (Assistant Media Officer) and Jonathan Olivier Wright (Web and Publications Assistant).

Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Communities and Local Government Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 1234; the Committee’s email address is [email protected].

List of witnesses

Monday 11 March 2013 Page

Mr Graham Allen MP, Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee Ev w1

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Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev w1

Oral evidence

Taken before the Communities and Local Government Committee on Monday 11 March 2013

Members present: Mr Clive Betts (Chair)

Bob Blackman Mark Pawsey Simon Danczuk John Pugh Mrs Mary Glindon Andy Sawford James Morris Heather Wheeler ______

Examination of Witness

Witness: Mr Graham Allen MP, Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, gave evidence.

Q1 Chair: We will now move on to our session on if it is something that other Select Committees might the codification of the relationship between local pick up and run with, but the partnership that we have government and central Government. Graham, could had with him has been, in effect, handinglove. We you perhaps introduce yourself? You do not really have been trying to make sure that we do not run too need an introduction, but if you could begin by just far ahead of what people feel is appropriate, and saying who you are. trying to make sure that all the time Government is Mr Allen: I hope I do not need an introduction. I am with us and understands what we are doing. Not Graham Allen, and I am Chair of the Political and getting a “no” from Government is a big thing these Constitutional Reform Select Committee. We have days, as it always should be. We have tried to make been looking at the political and constitutional sure that Government comes with us and is not relationship between local government and central frightened by the proposals, but actually understands Government, and how we might move that forward. them. That obviously applies to the LGA, although If I may, Chair, I would just like to put on record my the LGA have been more radical in pushing forward thanks to yourself and Members around the table for ideas of reform. their support in that job. It is going to be a long job; I have been extremely open with members of the I am sure you appreciate that, probably more than Government and, indeed, of the Opposition, and have anyone on the Committee. None the less, a start has had a dialogue. I think that dialogue continues. Yes, been made—and, may I say, a very encouraging we have published a Report. The Report does start—not least with the support of colleagues around recommend codification of the rights and this table. responsibilities of local government versus central Government. It does produce some interesting ideas, Q2 Chair: That really leads on to the very obvious I hope, on local government finance that can be question. When you last came to speak to us, in April debated and discussed. What we have not done, 2012, it was very much a draft code, and you were however, is said, “We have got the answer: here it is; talking to people about it. Perhaps you would just like just agree it.” We have engaged with the Secretary of to say how things have moved on since then, to the State and with the Minister for Local Government, point that an illustrative draft code was published on and have said, “Let’s continue that debate.” 29 January. That is probably best evidenced by the fact that we Mr Allen: Everyone is very interested in this. I think are intending to have a small conference in July. we all know that the current situation is not Hopefully, Members around this table might be sustainable in the long-term future. If we look 20 or available to attend also—and yourself, Chair. We will 30 years ahead, we are clearly not going to have this involve the Secretary of State, who has very kindly position of dependency of local government on central agreed to keynote it for us, and also the Deputy Prime Government. The idea that we could carry on being Minister and a Treasury Minister. We would like as overcentralised as we are—probably the most officials to be there. We would like it to be under overcentralised of the western democracies—just Chatham House rules. The intention is to go back over would not hold for 20 or 30 years. The question, our Report and say, “Now the dust has settled a little really, is not whether change should take place, but bit, can we start to take this further?” how we should change and how we should make that If we collectively manage to get some references in relationship much more effective and get the best out the various parties’ manifestos about how we may of both sides of the equation, as it were. take further the evolution of local government, I think We have worked very closely, not just with this Select we will have done a damn good job. It may have taken Committee, but also with the Local Government us three or four years, but I regard it as way better to Association. I have paid tribute publicly—and I am do that than to have had a quick splash of a Report happy to do it again—to the members and officers of and then move on. I know that you may feel that my the LGA of all parties, led by Sir Merrick Cockell, for Committee is not as nimble as your own Committee, the way that they have engaged in this. I do not know Chair, not least because it is dealing with some cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [14-04-2014 11:52] Job: 039004 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/039004/039004_o001_odeth_130311 HC 1049-i Codification uncorrected transcript.xml

Ev w2 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence

11 March 2013 Mr Graham Allen MP longerterm issues. You can often respond quite capabilities that are there in local government. I think fleetfootedly to what is happening in the immediate it is going with the flow, and I could also throw in the term. We deliberately select things that are quite Heseltine proposals. We are all beginning to see in the slowburning, because they do require some significant centre—even from our vantage point of Westminster, shifts. I hope that, together, we will be able to do that. looking down Whitehall—that the man in Whitehall It may be evident in the manifestomaking process, cannot do absolutely everything, and that the more we and, indeed, whoever is the Government and the let local government get on and do its job as it sees Opposition after the next general election. Because fit, in relation to those issues that are appropriately frankly, unless all parties come along with this, their responsibility, the more we will get out of local nothing sustainable is going to happen. Getting a government, and I think it will be repaid many, consensus is well worth aspiring to, however long it manyfold. takes. In a sense, that is one of the driving forces behind the document that we have produced: to get people to Q3 Bob Blackman: There is a view, I think, that think about how that would affect local government after devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern itself. Could it go further? Could it even devolve to a Ireland, the big issue—what we do with England— lower level itself? That was touched upon. How might has never been dealt with. Without going into the long it legitimise tax-raising powers? How would it involve history of the unification of Germany and Italy, the people? How would we begin to draw people back Spanish arrangements in the civil war, and the into local government and local politics, and get that comparisons with other EU countries, is it not fair to gene pool of politics revived in a way that, I think, say that England has had a very central form of would be healthy for all parties? democracy and rule for more than 1,000 years? Why change that? Q5 Bob Blackman: Do you think we have got to Mr Allen: I think it is very important that we do look wait for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, which at Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Wearing my are pressing on with changes and asking for more other hat—as somebody who, as people know, is very powers, before England will get anything? passionate about early intervention—where you go for Mr Allen: The English are quite rightly looking passion, detail and change is to the places where keenly across the border, particularly the northern people can get on and do the job. You go, in my case, border. I think that debate will be very, very healthy to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. But in for us, particularly if you look at what this place has England, you also go to local government. They are already done in terms of passing the 2012 Scotland the people who have got the bright ideas. They are Act. That assigns to Scotland the product of 10p of the people who are pushing along, even sometimes in income tax. The Silk Commission in Wales has now difficult economic circumstances. My view is that if said, “That looks pretty interesting. We recommend we can give local government more authority, that for Wales.” I suspect that the Northern Irish will responsibility and independence, then local be about two seconds behind Scotland and Wales on government will more than repay that faith. that, and that will just leave England, who are still The last time I was here, Chair, I mentioned that I had dependent wholly on the block grant. been a local councillor and a local government officer. I suspect that people in England will start to look at I have also chaired a local strategic partnership, and I the possibilities of being clearer about where your have seen the brilliance and the creativity that there is income tax goes, in terms of the support that gives to in the localities, which is often repressed and held local government. I suspect, as we have back. There is a great degree of passivity and risk recommended, that if the amount of income tax that aversion, which is not indigenous to people who work goes to local government appears on your income tax in the localities; they are made to feel that way, slip, or your wage or salary slip, and you suddenly because they very often have that blanket of Whitehall realise that the equivalent of two-thirds of the income over them. Whitehall, the governing parties and the tax take goes to local government, that might make a Opposition are all now coming to the view that if you lot of people much more interested all of a sudden in can liberate that talent, it will help us, not just in terms local government—or even were it just to be an of our communities and our social capabilities, but assigned amount, like the 10p that is going to be economically as well. I think that is the way the world assigned to Scotland. is going, Mr Blackman, and I think your Committee That does not, of course, mean that a rate-varying and ours feel the same way about that. It is just a capability is necessary. Indeed, the Scottish matter of getting there gently. Parliament has had, since its inception, the ability to vary the rate, and have chosen not to. But it does mean Q4 Bob Blackman: The Government have passed that people get a perspective on public spending, the Localism Act, and have given local authorities a which currently is a bit of a mystery. Something general power of competence to get on with things. Is happens on the seventh floor in Eland House, and that all the intervention that is needed? We have also some equalisation happens and a cheque arrives—or got the new deal for cities, and all the arrangements does it? If it were clearer where your tax was assigned of devolution seem to be happening. Is there a need to, that would be a great stimulus to political for anything more radical? development and accountability. Mr Allen: You need to go with the flow on that. I congratulate the past Government and the current Q6 Simon Danczuk: Just before I ask some Government for seeing the need to free up the questions about exactly what you were talking about cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [14-04-2014 11:52] Job: 039004 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/039004/039004_o001_odeth_130311 HC 1049-i Codification uncorrected transcript.xml

Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev w3

11 March 2013 Mr Graham Allen MP then, I get the impression that you are not really legitimacy. We do say that it should be statutory, and comparing like with like. You are talking about we do say that it should be entrenched, hidden, as it Scotland and Wales, and yet your proposals are not were—protected—behind the 1911 Parliament Act, so about devolving down to regions or down to an that it cannot be easily repealed. In other words, you English Assembly, or something, which would be the have got some bulwark against a Government that equivalent of devolving down to Scotland or Wales. might want to impose its own view and change local You are talking about devolving down to local government, as indeed all Governments in the past authorities. It is not comparable at all, is it? have tried to do. A little bit of protection is there also, Mr Allen: No, I do not think it is. There are some to defend local government’s rights. similarities, and there are things that we can learn, but I do not think it is a straight read-across. At one Q8 Mark Pawsey: I just wanted to move on, and level—sadly, from my own point of view, if I may be assume that the code is in operation, and consider how personal for a moment—I do not think that the vehicle it might affect the town and country planning for devolution in England will be the regions. That system—a particular area of interest for this was tried; there was a gap left, under the last Labour Committee—where we have seen a movement to Government, between the referenda in Wales and greater local involvement. How would you see town Scotland, which was fatal, and I think regionalism, at and country planning, in particular, working between the moment and for the foreseeable future, is dead. central Government and local government? Therefore, rather than try to resurrect that or come up Mr Allen: Personally, I have been really careful not with some new device, why do we not leave the to prescribe what anything would look like. This is existing institutions in place and utilise them to get really saying to local authorities, “You should come some form of effective devolution? It will not be at together. You should have a view.” I would say that I all identical to Scotland and Wales. Indeed, their own do not think that the way the Use Classes Order experiments or evolutions are not identical, either. applies to local authorities—whether you can have a That is part of the beauty of this. At one level, it starts betting shop on the High Street, or that sort of thing— off as a good old British bodge: it is about expediency, is appropriate in this day and age. It might well have and what we can do from the centre to get away with been appropriate when running an empire, but the this. It then moves towards a principled position, local authorities in England are quite capable of which is that if we believe in a Union but we believe deciding those things themselves. in devolution, then both of those things should apply Also, independence does not mean isolation. Local in some measure—and it can be at a differential authorities could get together collectively. They could pace—to all the nations in the Union. I think we will get together on travel-to-work areas, or subregionally find our own way, and I think these things will evolve or even regionally on different issues, and they could, over time, as they are doing in Scotland and Wales. I in a sense, make agreements between themselves. I think they should be allowed to find their own level could imagine a situation in which the local in England, too. authorities throughout England could collectively decide on what a sensible inspection regime was, or Q7 Simon Danczuk: For the code to work, it will what a sensible set of policy priorities for planning need to be underpinned by greater fiscal independence were: those things that should be done locally, and for local government. You were just touching upon then those things that are often more controversial, that, but the document does not really provide any which require a national view, and where that line meat on the bones, does it? ought to be drawn. At the moment, Mr Pawsey, it Mr Allen: No. Quite deliberately, we did not want to is pretty evident that the line is drawn not in local say to everyone, “You should be free of Whitehall,” government’s favour, and needs to be renegotiated and then “Here’s the magic answer that the sensibly between equals and partners. Government is going to impose.” People are going to find their own way. Also, setting that discussion up Q9 Mark Pawsey: Would you perhaps foresee a and having that debate is very, very important. The series of planning inspectorates, rather than one House of Commons as a whole should probably be centrally based Planning Inspectorate? careful of having a prescription. This is something that Mr Allen: The field would be open for that sort of has got to have a lot more airtime and a lot more sensible democratic negotiation between equals and discussion with the institutions of government: central partners. Having seen local government operate in the Government, local government and, of course, past, may I say, without wishing to be derogatory, that Parliament itself. I think we can get there on that. I think local government has proved itself capable of Fundamentally, there is probably an agreement that doing these things perhaps better than we have at local government is too in thrall to central national level. Government. Central Government is too overcentralised. Working from those basics—and if Q10 Mark Pawsey: Would you see a national role in you believe there should be greater devolution within respect of major infrastructure projects: for example, the Union—you start to ask those difficult questions highspeed rail or the provision of nuclear power about how you do that. stations? Clearly, left to individual local authorities, One thing that we do say in the Report, however, is those kinds of things, in most instances, would not that that code should not be something that is, like happen. many in the past, a memorandum—something that is Mr Allen: Yes, I think there would need to be sensible just pulled together and has no value and no arrangements for those things at that level. If you are cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [14-04-2014 11:52] Job: 039004 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/039004/039004_o001_odeth_130311 HC 1049-i Codification uncorrected transcript.xml

Ev w4 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence

11 March 2013 Mr Graham Allen MP free to have the debate, I think common sense will Mr Allen: Yes, sadly, we are of the same generation. prevail in that relationship. At the moment, those Local government was the driving force of the things occur basically in Whitehall; decisions are national economy. In the provision of your water made, they are rubberstamped in Westminster, and supply, your sewage, your energy—gas, and very often to a high level of resentment in the electricity—the innovation that took place was driven localities. It is way better to involve people through by local government. What an engine that was. It was their appropriate organisations, to negotiate a the basis of our prosperity. Now, we have, I think the sensible level— Report says, 1,200 directives covering what local government can and cannot do, even with some Q11 Mark Pawsey: Does that not then become a devolution of responsibility taking place. NIMBY’s charter? If you have got, for example, a I would far rather redress the balance. If there are new railway line or a new motorway, if there is one some difficulties—and I am sure there will be—that part of the country that does not want to play that come with that, we would need to deal with them game it is not going to happen. sensibly. But frankly, putting local government into a Mr Allen: I think you get that at the moment, and I position of abject subordination is not the way that think if you had a proper dialogue— you are going to get our economy going again and Mark Pawsey: It happens eventually, under the rebuilding a lot of what we need to rebuild in our current system, although it maybe takes too long. localities. There is a lot of talent out there among Mr Allen: Well, maybe. Sometimes it does, members, but also among officers in local government sometimes it doesn’t. I suspect that if you had local and among the local partners that there are in health, government that had its own independence, it would policing and education. We are not making the best of act as a responsible partner and would give certain them at the moment. authority to the national Government in a way that The Report we came up with is very much still open would be resented at the moment. People will for discussion. There is a lot of change that is continue occasionally to feel that they have a right to necessary on the code. We should kick it around and act irresponsibly if they are given no responsibility— get it into really good shape, but I think there now is a if they are not responsible for many things in their fundamental need for a rebalancing in the relationship local areas that, quite frankly, they can do way better between local government and central Government. than central Government. Do not forget, many parts As Mr Blackman has pointed out, this goes with the of local government have an AAA credit rating. Often flow; Government, particularly at political level—not central Government as a whole, from all parties, has quite so much at civil service level—is saying that we been giving lectures to properly elected, should move in that direction. democratically elected local government about how it should run its own affairs, throughout my political Q14 Heather Wheeler: That is a great advert for lifetime. That causes a resentment, which I think you local government. All of us are very proud of our bits would eliminate. You would have a much more and pieces, and our past involvement with local sensible and mature relationship between local government. Sometimes, though, things do go wrong. government and central Government, as you do in With the new proposed code, when local services are virtually all western democracies apart from England. collapsing, how would the Government deal with it? You are getting that now in Scotland, Northern Ireland Could they send the commissioner in, or the and Wales. That maturity is starting to feed through Gauleiter? The Allen Gauleiter comes to the rescue! the process. Mr Allen: I certainly hope not. As I pointed out gently, central Government has not exactly been Q12 Mark Pawsey: Do you really think that that sort flawless. Every time central Government makes a of delegation would lead to a level of maturity where blunder, every single one of us suffers. If your local people would accept for the greater good projects that government unit—whatever that may be—has a they are really not very happy with? problem, it can be put right. You can look down the Mr Allen: They would agree that their representatives road, you can see how other people do it, you can help could negotiate with central Government a proper each other out. division of responsibilities. That is the case in most Do not forget, there is still a national level. Every one countries. of those western democracies that we mentioned a little earlier has got some form of the centre doing Q13 Heather Wheeler: I am actually interested in stuff. In America, President Clinton introduced the carrying that on a little bit more. I remember being a Head Start Program. It was not done in 1,000 different councillor in the early 1980s. There seemed to be places, just growing. There was a national view—and great opportunities for local government to cock a there still will be, whoever is in power centrally— snook at central Government. If this code were that certain things need to be done. Those things will brought in, do you think—if you went back to those hopefully be done in future in consultation with an fomenting days of the 1980s—that it could have equal partner—a deliverer, someone who can get exacerbated the situation? It could have become a things done—properly elected democratically constitutional crisis. throughout the land. That is a better way to go than Mr Allen: I go back even further than that, Mrs people deciding at the centre that they do not like a Wheeler. I will go back to Joseph Chamberlain in particular thing happening, so they are going to stop Birmingham. it. I believe in the play of political ideas, dialogue, John Pugh: I remember it well. discussion and debate. That way, you will bubble up cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [O] Processed: [14-04-2014 11:52] Job: 039004 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/039004/039004_o001_odeth_130311 HC 1049-i Codification uncorrected transcript.xml

Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence Ev w5

11 March 2013 Mr Graham Allen MP and get a consensus eventually, which will stand us If I were in my 20s again right now, would I want to all in good stead. put my name forward for the council? I was very proud to do it in my 20s, a few years ago. I wonder Q15 Heather Wheeler: Heseltine is a free thinker. whether people would really put their names forward He has come up with the idea that there really ought in the same way right now. We have got to bring that to be unitary authorities across the piece, outside of excitement back, that passion back, and that means London. How do you think the code could react with bringing the authority and the responsibility back to that? That would be imposing something. It ought to local government. Trying to feel our way towards that, grow organically, but how do you get that to happen? with a consensual approach if possible, is very, very I cannot quite see that working. Is there still any lever important, and Greg’s contribution helps to move us of government left? all a bit closer to that. Mr Allen: Unitary authorities could fit very comfortably, and work with the code very Q17 Chair: There is one little omission in his report comfortably. The question is, if that is what you that we are probably going to ask him about when he wanted, how you would get there from where we are comes. All of the Departments got star ratings—we at the moment. That is not quite a question about the can have our own personal views about whether the code; that is a question of how you move the structure stars were appropriate in every case—but one of local government. Department did not get rated at all. That was the Skirting around that gently, what we really suggested Treasury. Did you find that surprising? was that people should initially be allowed to make Mr Allen: You know me, Chair; I am trying to build their own arrangements. If units of local government consensus wherever I can. decided to go that way, then that should be facilitated. Chair: That is a politician’s answer. They should be allowed to agree that. They should, if Mr Allen: Now you are really putting me on the spot. they wish, have a local vote or a proposition on how Do not forget that the Treasury authorised a Bill to they did that. Frankly, codifying the independence and give Scotland greater authority just last year. They power and financial power of local government does have actually let go of the product of the 10 pence not depend on whether it is unitary or not. That is a income tax rate. I happen to know that a number of separate question. In a sense, separating central the key officials in the Treasury have all but been Government from local government is a bigger- camped out in Scotland to make sure that that works picture question than how local government itself then effectively. They have seconded resources to the Silk chooses to organise itself, rather than be organised Commission, and produced an excellent report that from the centre. That is no longer local government; again gives authority to one of the nations of the that is agency of the central Government, and I hope United Kingdom. I am perfectly certain that they are that there is a growing consensus that that is no longer among the groups of officials that we are inviting to a way to run the sweetshop. our conference, and that if they can participate in a private and confidential way, they have the Q16 Chair: Greg Clark is going to come and talk to brainpower to help us to make a reality of England us about these issues after Easter, and also about his having a measure of devolution, as well as the other report on decentralisation. I wonder whether you have nations of the United Kingdom. Is it easy working had a chance to look at that report, and whether you with our good friends in the Treasury? Not always, see that agenda there as a stepping-stone towards a but you know, if it was easy, we would have done this longer-term objective—maybe the code—or whether a long time ago. We have got to crack on and you see it as a diversion away from that key issue. Is overcome any minor difficulties that stand in our way. it trying to make out that progress has been made, when it is perhaps a bit superficial? Q18 Chair: When we talk about devolution or Mr Allen: We need to cut away some of the rhetoric decentralisation, we have got the idea of double that we all put forward; all political parties, and all devolution: the devolution of powers down to local Ministers and shadow Ministers, do this. We need to councils, and local councils then devolving. How does actually look at what is being said, and the direction your code deal with that? Also, we have got a changed of travel. On that basis, I would very strongly political landscape now, with bodies like local welcome what Greg Clark has said. It is a great enterprise partnerships, with the creation of academies contribution to the debate, and it is going to nudge us and elected police commissioners. How do they fit further in the proper direction, and it will allow people into this code—or don’t they? to have those discussions. It will endorse the fact that Mr Allen: Again, I am keen not to prescribe, having people are allowed to think like this. For too long, said that it is wrong for the centre to tell people what people have decided that there is one election that to do, but I think that this will evolve as time goes matters, and that is the general election when one by. A matter of principle, however, is this question of party is elected and then hands over power to a Prime whether we just want to transfer power from the Minister and Whitehall. I think that all the elections central state to the local state, to use that sort of should matter, and I think that the elections in language. I think the answer is no. If you do give local everybody’s locality should have a significance. If councils more power and more responsibility, and it they do, people are going to come flocking back to is properly inspected and also has proper democratic vote in those elections, because they will be scrutiny, then I think that very, very many of those important. A lot more good people will put their local authorities will want to experiment and push names forward for election. power further down. That could be to neighbourhood cobber Pack: U PL: COE1 [E] Processed: [14-04-2014 11:52] Job: 039004 Unit: PG01 Source: /MILES/PKU/INPUT/039004/039004_o001_odeth_130311 HC 1049-i Codification uncorrected transcript.xml

Ev w6 Communities and Local Government Committee: Evidence

11 March 2013 Mr Graham Allen MP councils, parish councils, community and town once-in-a-lifetime thing? Is it something that might councils or whatever. I think that is to be commended well change from Parliament to Parliament? In this and encouraged. Parliament, for example, public health has been given Also, they would be in a position where they could to local authorities. Equally, education has largely share the best practice that is out there. They could all been taken back from local authorities. How learn from each other and see what really works. Just permanent would the code be? as Whitehall cannot decide everything, town hall is Mr Allen: The way the code reads, it can be not necessarily the most appropriate vehicle for permanent, and it would lay down some of the deciding what happens on the village green, or fundamental principles. Having that tampered with whatever it may be. I think that we should let that go. would be difficult, because if you do that, what I happen to have written a small piece with Phillip Whitehall giveth Whitehall can taketh away. This is Blond in The Independent about exactly this: that once particularly the case when you have got a new you can push power down to the localities, then the Minister coming in who has not been steeped in local localities themselves will find lots of appropriate ways government, for example. I would be anxious about in which to push power that one stage further down. I that. That is why I think it not only needs to be in think we would all benefit from that. statute, but, short of having a written constitution, it Perhaps some people are frightened of becoming needs the closest thing we have got to that, which is Members of Parliament. Some people are certainly the 1911 Parliament Act, to be a protection for it. frightened of going on the council. However, they That does not mean that you cannot, for example, would be more than happy to get involved and continue to negotiate between two equal partners engaged. As school governors prove, they would take further devolution of health to local government. That very seriously and be really concerned about the is a sensitive issue at the moment, and probably opportunity to do something for their local always will be. Health can deliver incredibly well at community, regardless of party. We need to give those a technical level and a scale level, but then perhaps people space to breathe. You cannot do it when the falls down occasionally on the human level. In my man in Whitehall is telling you whether or not you view, one of the ways that you could deal with that can have a betting shop on the high street. would be to have much closer integration with local communities. The first elected person I meet in the Q19 Chair: What next? health service is a Secretary of State. I do not think Mr Allen: We need to keep the dialogue going. that is healthy, and I think that you lose a lot by doing Traditionally in here, we either win or lose. I do not it that way. If I were in local government, I would think that is the way forward. From my own point of want to talk to central Government about how that view and that of the LGA, and from discussions with might work. colleagues on my Committee and indeed informal Similarly, colleagues have raised planning issues, chats with people on this Committee, I think the idea issues around finance, and more ability to raise or not must be to keep the dialogue going. Let’s keep testing raise taxes, levies or whatever, with the consent of the this, pushing this, making sure that it is workable and people in their area. There is a lot of play, but you practical, and keeping all people of all political parties have got to preserve the fundamentals from those who involved. We may then be on the way to giving local would want to go back to days where the centre told government the freedom that it deserves and the us to do everything. accountability to local people that it needs. Chair: On that point, thank you very much indeed. Mr Allen: Thank you, Chair. Thank you, colleagues. Q20 John Pugh: When the code is finally published, do you see it being a generational thing or a

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