Producedby CaseStudy

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A classic film noir once posited of New York that there were "eight million stories in the naked city." And until recently, there were roughly the same number of reasons a producer could find not to shoot a movie there: It's

'4 ri too expensive. It's too cumbersome. There's no place to n :* *l park. Having two baseball teams damages crew unity. i.$ I I Several years ago, the Producers Guild put itself at the forefront of a coalition of groups lobbying for legislation to make producing \ Il entertainment in New York 3 i'" more affordable. And as the PG.{s representative on the Nelr,'York Production i Alliance, Lydia Dean Pilcher, can rightly claim a measure of creclit for the incen- tl ,-,s tives that have helped to jump-start the New York production sphere. Pilcher was in a unique position to press for such change. As a thoroughly , independent producer with both close ties to the Ner.r'York producing commu- nity and a range of experience that's taken her around the country and around > the world, she brings a genuinely global perspective to local issues. What's more, I as the long-serving Vice Chair of the PGA East - until this summer when her second term expired - Pilcher could speak with the institutional strength of a t: national organization behind her. Thanks to her work and that of the New York a Production Alliance, production in Neu'York is booming, with an aggressive tax a- t incentive program and a vigorous and proactive film office. (As for bridging the Mets/Yankees divide, you're still on your own.) Pilcher's work in addressing the problems facing her profession is a natural extension of her creative work, which has never shied away from tackling provocative subjects such as gender equality, cultural identity and political and social injustice. Over the course of her career, she's lent her skills to sup- porting the distinctively independent voices of such directors as Wes Anderson (Tlrc Darjeeling Limited), Tim Robbins (Cradle Will Rock), Alison Maclean (Jesus'Son), Jane Anderson (Normal\ and particularly , with whom she has collaborated on eight different projects, including The Namesake, Vanity Fqir and the upcoming adventure filrn Antelia, starring Hilary Su'ank as Amelia Earhart. It was from the Toronto set of Antelia that Lydia Dean Pilcher spoke to Produced by editor Chris Green for the 37th interview in this magazine's ongoing series of Case Studies of successful producers and their work. Over the course of several phone calls (only occasionally broken up by the need to, say, pro- duce a movie), she shared her thoughts on such topics as developing inter- national financing models, the comparative challenges of shooting in India and New York, and the difficulties involved in selling a film rvith a main character named "Fuckhead."

Summer2O0B Produced by I 3 How did you find your way into the industry, and into pro- out o[ school rvas a script, Alter Hour-s, clirected br Martin ducing specifically? Everybody's path is different ... what Scorsese and rvritten by one of'our classnr:rtes,Joe Mignon. did yours turn out to be? After graduation I u'orkcd a bit ir-rdocument:iries but I alrvavs lo'r'cd movies, but grou,ing up in Atlanta I never became lrustrated u'ith the lack of opportr-rnities; it uasn'tas thought of it as a career.At Antioch College I [ocused on polit- vibrant a ficld as it is todav. So I began u'orking on f'eatures, ical science and journalism, and I worked as a film critic for like Alier Hours, ancl .just reallv f'ell in love rvith dramatic sto- the college newspaper. Sitting in the Little Arts Cinema of rvtelling. I believcd in the po\\'er of film to opcn up the Yellou'Springs, Ohio, I discovered filmmakers I'd never knou,n u,orld, inspire, to make us laugh and crr'- markeus feel o[ before ... Bertolucci, Bergman, Godard.... When I got to that things. Feeling that mv talents Lveremore in the l'inancial point of "u,hat am I going to do u,ith mv life?" I felt I should do and organizational areas, I decided to focus on a production u'hatever the thing u'as that I reallv loved the most. And the track. I u'olked as a location assistant and a location man- thing I loved the most \vas movies. I u'orked in radio and video ager (Pluttes,Traitts aud Atttorrtobile.s),then became a pro- documentary but the only film course at Antioch u'as experi- dr-rction manager- (QtLiz S/rorr,),and a line producer mental film. The primarv instructions, as I remember it, rvere (Mlssrs-sl1-r7.riMasala).I u'orked on both studio moviesand not to take a shon'er rvith vour camera or throu' it dorvn the independent films, and found thartvou tend to move up more stairs as votr createdroul images. qr-rickll-in the independent arena than vou do on a studio track. In those davs, we \rrere making indie featurcs in New Good advice at any stage of a career. York for $ .5 million to $2 million. Having said that, the first Al'ter Antioch, I applied to NYU f'or the graduate film pro- feature I produced u'as in 1989 for $200,0001 gram. At NYU rvhile most of the others were on more of a Hollvrvood track, I continued to make docs. I loved the post- Wow. What was the title? punk East Village and it u'as a ,qreattime to be at NYU. Mv Tlrc Kill-Oll, based on a Jim Thon.rpson novel. It t'as aclaptedand classmatesincluded Ang Lee, Jim Jarmusch, and Spike Lee. directed bv Maggie Greenu'ald. We shot it in l8 davs. I producd In iact, one of the first features that I workcd on when I got it and I drove the canrcra truck! Uarglzsl

I 4 Produced by Summer2O0B .X:: On focation tor Amelia: (from left) , Ewan McGregor, Pilcher, Mira Nair. (Photo:KenWoroner)

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Pifcher (right) on location tor The Namesake with lead actress Tabu. (Photo:Abbot Genser)

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Pilcher {right} on location for Amelia with

-. lrcr ^rr x -i'. director of f photography *- ' !"-o.t{: Stuart Dryburgh. (Phato:Ken Woroner)

So in those early days, who were some of the people that That's a perfect transition, since when you talk about work- you learned from, and what were some of the lessons that ing with directors with a personal vision, Mira Nair's obvi- you still find yourself employing today? ously in that category. I understand, Amelia is your eighth RoberfColesbelrv \vas one ol mv first ntentors. He u,as a f:Lntas- movie together. Given your strong collaborative track tic persor-rin or-rrbusiness. Hc u,as the kind of person r,r'hokneu, record, I was wondering if you could talk about that collab- production inside and or-rtand then partncred, rc:rllv parlnercd, oration, and how it grew? rvith the director to realize their vision. We did Alier Hout's rvitl.r Well,I think that first of all, ri,eboth har.ca passionfor the dir.cr. Arnt Robinson also pt'odr-rcing.And I u,:rs a Llntr ntanaqer on sitr.'o[ the u'orld. Wc sharea slron-qsensc of soci:il jr_rsticeancl :r .'1,1r.s.si.s-rrpprBtLntittg riith Bob and Alan P:rr-ker.Wc did a nunrbcr strongl'randnr:ide artislic zrcstlretic.We love to tr-:ilel.We lor.c ol other filnts together, :u-rdhc \\ras someonc u'ho u'as alu.avs it people.Wc lor,'ecultut'c. We lor,eideers. We lot.eart and be:iutr,. lert stronginspiration Ior me. Welove politics... We.lust lor,e iill'. Honcstlt;I think that all of us u'ho lorreri'hat rvc do arc gvpsicsat hc:ir1bec:tuse vou havc to producer, As a what was it about his approach that res- lor.cbeing r-oollessand creatinga home u,her-cverr'

Summer2OOB Produced by I 7 I Left: Pilcher (right) with writer- director Wes Anderson on the set of The Darjeeling Limited. Photo:James Hamilton)

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-- , i*M Above: Pilcher (right)with Mira Nair in India.

Artrclia is :r S-15n'rillior-r movie. Mira never \\'ants to lose touclr I nriide a movie in Hong Kong rvith Gong Li ancl Jclcnrr Irons uith her im:rgination. h'rvcnting,doing something u,e havcn't calleclCJiize-se Br.r-i, b:rsed on that n'roclel.But at a ecltltirr point, donc beforc, or-bleakins ne\\'groLlndin a dillclent ur:rvis I rvi-rntcdto br-anch out ancl cler,elopr-r'raterial. I had rvorked luluuvs the goal. We'll likclr do sonrctl'ringsn'rallel and nrore u ith Colir-rCallcncler and Ke li Putnanr u hcn ther' \\ ct-eon the pelsonal :rftcl tl'risone. We'r'e optionecl :rnd iilc c1r-ritefoclrsccl East Co:rstuith HBO Shoricase.When thel lolrncciHBO crnMohsin Harrrid'snovcl l/ie ReltrctatttFttntlatrtatttalist. Filnrs, I \\,asable to get :r f ilst-look deal rvhich lastecllour lears, ancl tlris \vas a slcut cntra'lol-me into the u,orlcl ol develop- You've worked with a lot of women directors in your mcnt. Iri'as ablc to take on proiects in:r different nav thanI career... h:rclbel'ore. Keri ri:rs an anr:rzir-rgmentol'for me in this arena Tlrct'cu,as a period thcre ilr the nineties,particlllarl\, u'hcrc I u':rs ol'sclipt developnrent.Ancl I -gotto plocluce sonrc ven cool onlv u'orking u ith \\-onren clireclors. I ri'cirkeclri'ith Alis<.rn nrovics rvith HBO like lrorr .lan,ed Attgcl.s,Ht'sterit'ul Blitt*rcss, MacLcan, Jane Ander-son:rnd Katja von Garnier, Gina Pr-ince- NonrtuI rnd Disuplteal-i?gA. l.s. Brthervoocl,ancl ol coLlrseMila... It's interesting, the first transition you spoke of, developing Was that something you consciously sought out, or did that a model for international financing ... that, I think, is some. just naturally happen? thing that a lot of PGA members find very intimidating, It u:rsn't:r conscious tl'rine.BLrt obviouslv tl-relcis sonrething-in Ouestions of deal making and international finance often thc stontellins, the female point ol r'icri' tl'ratl'nr clrnt'n to, both seem like a vast remove from the nuts and bolts of physical as ll \\'oman zrnclas a \\'onlalr prodllcer'. production and dramatic storytelling. How did you educate yourself and start that project? So, do you find yourself generally drawn to directors? Or are The velv first nrovie that I n-rer-rtioneclto lolr, 77rr,Kill-Ofr,1 you drawn to scripts which you then develop? Every pro- took to Cannes. It urasn'tin con'rpetition, rie just \\'elrt and put ducer works in a different way, but at what point, typical- it in tlre nrarket. So I u,zrscrposed to 1hc pl'ocessol sellins loF ly, do you enter the process? eigr-rriul'rts earrll or-r.Whcn votr go to Cunnes, thc cntile [r]m Itlsch:rngecl over-timc. In mv earlt vears,peoplc uele seeking inclr-rstlvof tl'rc uor-ld is thcrc, and r'or-rleiilize horv big and mc ()ttt becatrseo[-mv plocluction skills. But becur-rscu,e nostlv small it is at thc s:rmetirne . When Mir'n :rnd I IinuncedKann l i lr:rnced Mi m's l iln-rsi n tcr-nationlillr', I becante experiencccl Srrti'a,s'e had one cquitr'f inancier, riho gave Llsrr corrcrstone rvith r-r-rodclsol linancing Iilms br pr-c-sellingl,,r'r.rgn terr-it,r- of S2 nrillion - unclrie necclcdeight. Otrr eqllil\ invcstorhad rics. The achuntzrgcis tl'recleative conlrtrl as riell ns the cost ol' Japanescr-ights lol her $2 nrillion, anclric set oLrtu ith thegoal thc nrovie beins covercclbel'ore proclnction, rr'ith lrnsold telli- ol'prc-selling to clistributols ll'om dil'le'r'cntterritolics. Ovel the tolics in our-pocket.This led to u'ork u'ith othcl independerrt cour-sL'of Cannes, u'e raisecl tl'rc budgct of the n'roviebl pre. clilectorsusilrs similar'f inancing slt'uctLlt'es.Wavne Wang :rncl selline France (BAC Film), Gelm:rnr' (Panclora),Italr' (Cecchi

16 Producedby Summer2OOB I Gori), the UK (Film Four), and Spain (BMG). We hired:r lat.r'er to help Lls put tl-rosecleal merrlos together. Then ue rnet Wendv P:rlmer :.rtCiB'u Sales u,ho took on the sales for the rcst of inter'- national. Br" the time u'e le[t, l'e had raised the budgct of the movie, signed an interniitionzrl sales :rqent, enlistecl a bank, and u'e had rvithhcld the rights to Nortl.r Anrcr-ic;rancl India.

And this is all on the strength of Mira's name? Because Mira was still a young filmmaker at that point. On the str-engthol ii rnoviecalled Kanlri Srrlrn uith Mira Nairclir'ect ing. Six u'eeks later, \\'e \\'ere able to comntence otrl pre-ploduction.

Wow. That's a good week's work. We didn't closeer,'en,thing zrncl have our con'rpletecash llorv r:ntil Septen'rber,aboul a u'eckbefor-e l'e startedshooting, so it uzrsa lit- tle hain'.But bec:ruseof the ueatherin India, Septenrber-throush Decernberu'as :r pelfccl lirr-re1o shoot the nrovie,lurcl u'e haclto n'rakeit happen.

-, lrr: Let's talk about that, because working in India is something you know a great deal about. How many shoots have you done over there now?

,:l l'r'e clonelbur.

Obviously, India is a completely different production envi- ronment, but also has an incredibly vibrant filmmaking cul- ture. How does an American producer negotiate the ins and outs of shooting there? It's changcclzr lot over the r.ears.Whetr u'c ln:icleKanrc .Srr/r"ain 1995,therc \\'ere no conrpllters,ther-e u'as no Internet,there rrele no ccll plrones,u'hich n.racleproducing :r moviervith thal kind o[ complicatedl'inancial str-LrctLu'e ven'challenging. Iti chaneeda lot onestly,I think that all of heart becauseyou have to whereveryou are.

not', and that tcchnologv is pleltv r.nuchpart ol'clailr' liie in Inclia, so the chiille nges arc clilTer-ent.Goins into arn diff erent culture , r'or-r fincl that people have their o\\'n \\'ilvsol'cloir-rg things. I're also shot in Hong Kong, Uganda, London, even r-igl'rtnou, in Tcrronto.In anv location, 1or-rl'ind a \\'av to uot'k riith r.irhatis ar':-rilableto voLl. Embrzrce u'hat is speciul about u'her-evou ill'e. Yolr ner-cr rculh strc- cccd if lou ttr, lo rnake e\ref\''()neckr it vor-rru ar: You h:n c to be rvill- ing to r-rnclerstandancl bc palient.

Specifically in terms of India, what are some of the aspects of the culture that are foreign to American filmmakers that you have to make allowances and adjustments for? There is a vel'v compler relieiotrsancl social slrllctllt'e in Soutlr

20 Producedby Summer2OOB Asiathat is dif'ficult for outsiders to unclerstancl.It can m:rke diverse cr-eu and rvorkir-rgin con.junction rvith neighbor- doing busir-ressven' interesling at times. Br-rtI alu'avs find hoods and communities is of utmost importancc. As thateven'time I return to India mt, knou'ledgeand apprcci- opposed to coming in like Vikings, like vou'r'esoins to takc ation deepens and grows. Culturallr,', there's a sense of des- ovcr, like the rvay man\ movie companies do. tinr',a Ieeling that things happen for a reason ancl u,l'rat's meant to be is meant to be. Thcre'.snot a sense of Lrrgcncv So in that instance, who do you talk to? Who's your first abouttime. Btrt I have to sav that, bcing a Neu Ycrrkcr,I find contact, to make sure that you're not going to step on the that to be true almost ever)'u,here I go.llauglts] I don't urant wrong toes, and that you're going to integrate with a to .iustpin it on India. You knou', mavbe t,e're all crazv. neighborhood rather than working against it? Erenri here else, life just has a ditferent pace, a diffelent Well, location nlaniigers tcncl to h:rve:r good sense of it. rhlthnr. It's not that production happens in zrlesser-rvat, it Either tl-revhave erperience in ccrtain are.ls, ()l' if ther''r-e just happcns ir-ra different uar', and sometimes that's slou- goin-einto a ne\\'are'a,thev can suss olll u'ho 1l-releaders of er.There isn't this sor-tof American ser.rsibilitvof "We can do the communitv are, ancl u'hat the vzrriouspersonalitics are anvthingzrnd u'e can be:rnvbodv." lt's not the u'av the rest ol' on thc block. So voll go in, ancl volr tlv to be as lespectl'trl as theri'orld thinks ... thank God! Uniortunatelv, that's the u'av possible. Talk to the neighborhood associations. Hiling a rue'reborn to think. I hooe thal's not too abstract. fcrv people l'r-on'rthe neighborhood to t'olk on the shoot goes:r long uar'. When vou're filnring in a denselv populat- Well, maybe one way to ground that observation would be ed location environment, that's critical to m:rkine it all u'or-k. to compare it to New York. How much have you shot in ? I do want to talk a little more about the PGA East since I cut mv tecth shooting on the stleets of'Neu'York ancl thor-rgh that's something you've been so closely involved with I loveto travel, it helps to rvor-kin the place u.here nrv chilclrer.r and its been such a bright spot for the Guild over the go to school! We f ilmed mosl of Tlte Natrtesakein Neu' York - past few years. How did you come to be involved in the \re \\'erc onc of thc first lilms to benefit l'ror-nthe ne\\r tax Dro- Guild? Who recruited you? duction crcdit. It u'as Hau,k Koch, actuallr'.

I think that for an out-of-town filmmaker. New York can be A lot of people give that answer. as intimidating in its own way as shooting in India or I havc to sav, because I prcttv much ri'or-kall the time ancl I Uganda or any foreign country. So, what would you sug- harre trvo kicls ancl run:t colttpaltv lto\\r,I u':rsn't tet'riblr. gest to the "foreign" filmmaker who wants to find that involvecl initiallv. I u'as :r member- fol abor-rtlhlee vears New York production value, but is worried that it's out of beforc I -eota call l'r'onrN:rncv Goldnran, nho told me thcl his or her grasp? ucre looking to broacien out the lcaclership on thc East I who love what we do are gypsiesat tIus I love being rootlessand creatinga home

I think the first thing is that 1-ou\vant to have Nerv Yorker-s Coasl and bring in nrore feature l'ilm people. It uas at a time running r"our prodnction and leading von into the process. uhen I had just finished about three nrolics back to biick Nerv York is its ou'n culturc. The unions u'ork a little dil'fer- and I u:rs looking to take a brcatl'rerand chanse Lrp mv entlr',like thcv do anr,place vou go. Again, it's people u,ho locus a little bit. I had becn I'celingf'or a u'hile that produc- come in I'r-on'rthe outsicle and nant to do it "their t'av" anci el's \vcre not or-ganizcd as a voice in Neu' York and I rl'as dor.r'tunderstand the u'av it's done Iocally that tcncl to butt rrer-vir-rtclestecl in bringing the Neu' York part of tl-reGuild up against the sr,stem and l-raveproblcms. Wc hitr.e a pl-ettv :tr-oundto have more of a political l'ocus in our f ilnr con-r- vibr-ant street cultur-e, n'hereas in Los Anseles and other' munitv. Whcn David Pickcr and I ri.er-eapproachecl to run as places, peoplc spcncl a lo1 of tin'realone in their cars. Neu' olficers, Nellc Nugcnt ancl John Schu'allr. t'ere pr-rltine a lot Yolkers tencl to har,e big pel'sonas iind loud voiccs and ol'energv into growing the PGA East and the mcmbcrship there's manv, manv different cultures. Wc rvalk and r-idethe uraserpanding cxponentiallv. It u'as terrilic s\ n!'rgistic tinl- sutx.r'avand rve'reollt on thc street all thc time, brushing up ing. We opened an oflice, hired a sta{'f , ancl \\'c \\'cr-eablc to ag:rinst evervonc else. So I think llal 5[1-i.inorn h:r'e r start liasing u ith all thc dif'fercr.rtorganizzrtior-rs :rnd grotrps

Summer2OOB Produced by 2l I in New York. We created the Community Action Committee, and Newfoundland,which is whereAmelia's trans-Atlantic which has taken on a lot of different issuesover the past four flight departedfrom. So betweenthese three locationswe've years: lobbying for the tax credits, interfacing with the New pretty much managedto get all the lookswe need. York Production Alliance, working with the MPAA on the anti-piracy campaign, working with the Mayor's Task Force As a point of contrast, I wonder if you could talk a little for Diversity in the film industry and now we are engaged about the production of, for instance, Jesus'Son. It's a in a big environmental effort with Earthmark, which is off to beautiful film, but I admit I'm curious, how does a produc- a great running start focused on greening the film industry. er sell an impressionistic,loosely-plotted episodic story So that's been very gratifying for me. Even though I've with a main characternamed "Fuckhead"? termed out as a PGA East officer, I look forward to continu- Exactly! llaughsl Well, that was a case where we werent able ing to work with the Community Action Committee and hav- to sell it until after the film was finished. We started with a cor- ing an active presence. nerstone of equity. Everybody wanted to track the project, becauseit was a cult novel and people were interested in what Stepping back from New York for a bit, you're shooting the Alison Maclean would do next. But as we attached each cast story of Amelia Earhart in Toronto. Vllhat was behind that member, first Billy Crudup, then we got Samantha Morton, choice? then we got Dennis Hopper and Denis Leary and Holly Hunte4 Our era is the thirties, and Toronto is a great place for this Will Patton, Jack Black - who, to be fai4 wasnt nearly as well period and for getting a lot of different landscapes.Amelia known as he is today. And we still couldnt get a distributor on Earhart's story has about 50 locations. She's a person of the board. There were distributors who would call me up and say, world, you know? Our sets include Los Angeles, New York, "Lydia, we really like the movies you do but we cant figure Chicago, Miami, Hawaii, Wales, Newfoundland, Calcutta, this one out . .. tell us, what is it that you seein this script?" Thailand, Mali... We'll finish our production in South Africa which is a great place for 1930'sMiami, Hawaii, New Guinea, Now I'm reallycrrrious. Vllhat did you tell them? and Los Angeles; we're also able to get some of the European It's basically a story about a guy who couldn't feel anything in wine country and Africa, of course. We're in Halifax for Wales the world. He had hit rock bottom, and it was about his iour-

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22 Producedby Summer2008 nev back to being able to touch and feel, to connect r,r,ith other people. If people knolr, the author, Denis Johnson, they understand u,hat the tone is. And the challenge in making the movie u'as to bring a certain amount of rvarmth into a cold landscape to achier,e a viscerallv emotional tone. And to keep it funnl: Finallr; the budget of $3.5 million \\'as put together in a limited partnership and u'e shot it in Philadelphia. During post, it \\ras coming around Cannes ALBUOUEROUE time again. llauglrl I had completed Cradle Will Rock direct- edb1- Tim Robbins, rvhich rvas opening night at Cannes that STUDIOS 1'ear.We cut a fortv-minr-rte trailer forJe.slr.s'Sorr and I took that to Cannes. With Bart Walkert help, rve rented a hotel room and in\.ited everv distributor to come in and u,atch. And ther all came. People u'ere reallv moved. Some people askedus to hold out and s'ait so that thev could see the rvholemovie. Alliance Atlantis made us an offer for foreign and u,e r,r'entahead and made that sale at Cannes. Mark Urman and Tom Ortenberg immediately fell passionatelv in love r.r,ithit and rvanted it right au,av. Over the next month n'emade the decision to sell the domestic to Lionssate.

I know that you have to get back to the set, but I wanted to share a last question with you. "Independent film" seems to mean something different every fe\& years. What are the major challenges for an independent pro- ducer going forward? What should we be doing to encourage independent production and creative entre- preneurship? The modes of financing are alu'ar.schanging. I think this era of the monev on Wall Street and the hedge funds... all of that is prettv much u'inding dorvn. The loss of indie distri- bution outlets - losing Neu, Line and Warner Independent and Picturehouse - these are major blou's. Everlthing has to adjust and rebound. Looking at r,r'hats happening in reac- tion to the global market, it seems that there are more inter- national financing opportunities for independents. But the landscape of mor.ies is changing rapidlv and drasticallv becauseof the u'at content is distributed and vieu,ed. My feeling is that this is the crou,ning hope for all of us u,ho have a brain and a heart. Material doesn't have to be dumb- ed dorvn for the channel surfers, and marketing for movies can be targeted more brilliantlv for non-mainstreant vieu'ers than ever before. This gives material rvith diverse content a chance to be successful in the marketplace. I also think the issuesof entn'and retention in our industrr' for independent filmmakers, \\'omen [ilrnmakers, and dir,erse filmn.rakers is a . EIGHTSOUND STAGES len serious issue. It takes people rvith real vision in the stu- dio executive'schair and strong-minded passionate produc- . 7O,OOOSF OF IVILLSPACE ers to push back against the mediocre middle ground u,hich . 9B,OOOSF OF PRODUCTIONOFFICE SPACE studios tend to feed. This is a problem that will never go arvar''.That's u'hv people like us, n'ho have the abilitv to cre- . COMPLETEON-SITE PRODUCTION SERVICES ate alternatir,e visions, har,e the responsibilitv to come for- uard and stal'strong.6 www.abqstudios.com 505-227-2OOO

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Summer2008 Producedby 23 t