824
1 BEFORETHESELECTINVESTIGATIVECOMMITTEE
2 STATEOFWYOMINGHOUSEOFREPRESENTATIVES
3 ------
4 In the matter of the investigation into issues relating to 5 budgetary and administrative activities within the Wyoming Department of Education and the Office of Superintendent of 6 Public Instruction, including issues identified by the Governor's Inquiry Team Report regarding the Wyoming 7 Department of Education dated June 13, 2013 and subsequent reports released or resulting from that inquiry. 8 ------9
10
11 TRANSCRIPTOFHEARINGPROCEEDINGS
12 VOLUMEIII **NONCONFIDENTIAL** 13
14 PURSUANT TO NOTICE duly given to all
15 parties in interest, this matter came on for hearing
16 on the 8th day of January, 2014, at the approximate
17 hour of 8:00 a.m., at the Wyoming State Capitol
18 Building, Room 302, 123 Capitol Avenue, Cheyenne,
19 Wyoming, before the Select Investigative Committee,
20 with Speaker Tom Lubnau presiding, and Representatives
21 Mark Baker, Gregg Blikre, Cathy Connolly, Kathy Davison,
22 Mike Greear, Michael Madden, Glenn Moniz, John Patton, Ruth
23 Petroff, Tim Stubson, Mary Throne and
24 Dan Zwonitzer in attendance.
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 825
1 APPEARANCES
2 Special Counsel: MR. BRUCE SALZBURG Special Counsel 3 CROWELL&MORINGLLP 205 Storey Boulevard, Suite 120 4 Cheyenne,Wyoming82009
5 MR.ROBERTC.JAROSH MR.KHALELENHART 6 SpecialCounsel HIRSTAPPLEGATE,LLP 7 1720CareyAvenue Suite 400 8 Cheyenne,Wyoming82001
9 INDEX 10 PAGE
11 WITNESSES: 12 ANGELABENNER 13 Examination-Mr.Salzburg 289
14 EXAMINATION BY THE COMMITTEE RepresentativeStubson 855 15 RepresentativeZwonitzer 857,862 RepresentativeThrone 859 16 RepresentativePatton 861 SpeakerLubnau 863 17 WILLIAMDAVIDPANNELL 18 Examination-Mr.Salzburg 869,908
19 EXAMINATION BY THE COMMITTEE RepresentativeBaker 896 20 RepresentativeZwonitzer 896,898,926 RepresentativeThrone 898,985 21 SpeakerLubnau 900,902,927 RepresentativeMoniz 901 22 RepresentativeDavison 902
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 826
1 INDEX(CONTINUED) PAGE 2 WITNESSES (Cont.):
3 TERI LYNN WIGERT Examination-Mr.Salzburg 932 4 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE 5 RepresentativeMadden 979 RepresentativeStubson 982 6 RepresentativeZwonitzer 984,996 RepresentativeThrone 985 7 SpeakerLubnau 986,997
8 CYNTHIA JO Hill Examination-Mr.Salzburg 1000 9 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE 10 RepresentativeStubson 1091 RepresentativeZwonitzer 1099 11 SpeakerLubnau 1102
12 ***Pages 875 through 907 are confidential and bound 13 and sealed in a separate transcript
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 827
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 (Hearing proceedings reconvened
3 8:00 a.m., January 8, 2014.)
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We are back on the record.
5 Mr. Salzburg, call your next witness.
6 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
7 We'll call Superintendent Hill, please.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Superintendent Hill, did
9 you receive the initial advisement with the subpoena?
10 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Speaker, yes.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you read it?
12 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Yes.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you understand it?
14 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Yes.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
16 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I do not.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Would you rise and
18 raise your right hand.
19 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Yes.
20 (Witness sworn.)
21 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Salzburg.
22 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Speaker, before
23 we begin, Mr. Salzburg. Mr. Speaker, yesterday you
24 released me from my subpoena, and as you can see, I'm here
25 voluntarily today. I rearranged my schedule so I can be
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 828
1 here until 5:00 today. Five o'clock today would be the
2 full amount of time that the hearings were scheduled to
3 run, and I make a request to be able to in some fashion
4 respond to all witnesses with sworn testimony.
5 Yesterday was a good example of a sliver of
6 information used as a misrepresentation. I don't want that
7 to happen again. I want a set of full facts on the table.
8 So I would suggest that other witnesses that do go after me
9 today that I have an opportunity to also respond to them
10 today.
11 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Mr. Speaker.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Greear.
13 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: In light of that,
14 in order to accommodate the superintendent, I would prefer
15 we switch back to our other schedule and take the other
16 witnesses and then let the superintendent respond at the
17 end. If that's what she wants to do, that's fine with me,
18 and I would prefer that for the efficiency of these
19 proceedings.
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, are we prepared
21 with other witnesses?
22 MR. SALZBURG: We are.
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. Okay. Call
24 your next witness, Counsel.
25 MR. SALZBURG: Mr. Pannell -- wait a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 829
1 second. Angela Benner. We had originally scheduled Angela
2 Benner to be the last of the witnesses prior to
3 Superintendent Hill. I'm advised that Ms. Benner has to go
4 to Riverton for Leadership Wyoming today. And so if it's
5 okay with everybody, I'm going to call her now.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Call your next witness,
7 Counsel.
8 MR. SALZBURG: We'll call Angela Benner.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Benner, did you
10 receive the initial advisement with your subpoena?
11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, I did.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions
13 regarding that advisement?
14 THE WITNESS: No.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: And you understand?
16 THE WITNESS: I do.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you please rise and
18 raise your right hand.
19 (Witness sworn.)
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you.
21 Counsel.
22 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
23 ANGELABENNER,
24 called for examination by the Select Investigative
25 Committee, being first duly sworn, on her oath testified as
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 830
1 follows:
2 EXAMINATION
3 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Ma'am, would you state your
4 full name, please.
5 A. Angela Benner.
6 Q. Miss Benner, have you been in the room during the
7 hearings yesterday and the day before?
8 A. No. I was listening to it over the Internet on
9 and off.
10 Q. Okay. Well, let me give you some short
11 guidelines for your testimony here today. First, with
12 regards to who is asking the question, you're entitled to
13 know and understand what the question asked is. So if I or
14 anybody else asks a question, will you, if you don't
15 understand for any reason, please ask us to rephrase, and
16 we'll be able to do that.
17 Second, there's a court reporter who is sitting
18 right here in front of me who is taking down your testimony
19 today as well as my questioning and everybody else's
20 questioning. It's important, therefore, that we don't talk
21 over each other. So if you'll let the question be fully
22 asked before you start your answer, we'll try to remember
23 to let you fully answer before we ask the next question,
24 okay?
25 A. Yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 831
1 Q. And in normal day-to-day communication, everybody
2 nods and shakes their heads and says uh-huh and huh-uh. It
3 will be much clearer, if you are asked a yes or no
4 question, that you answer audibly with a yes or no
5 response.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. If you forget to do that, I'm going to remind you
8 to do that, all right?
9 I'm told that you need to get the microphone a
10 little closer to you so he can hear you.
11 A. Is that better?
12 Q. Ms. Benner, how are you currently employed?
13 A. I'm currently the human resource manager for the
14 Department of Administration and Information.
15 Q. Can you summarize your employment history for us?
16 A. I've been in human resources since 1999. I was
17 back in D.C. the human resource director for the American
18 Trucking Association, then I was in Phoenix the human
19 resource director and part of the executive team for the
20 Arizona Kidney Disease and Hypertension Center. I've
21 currently been with the State a little less than six years.
22 I started with A&I in the human resource division, then I
23 was the human resource manager for the Department of Family
24 Services for almost three years, and I've been back at A&I
25 since March of 2013.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 832
1 Q. And, Miss Benner, what's your educational
2 background?
3 A. I have a Bachelor of Science from the University
4 of North Carolina in Greensboro in management and
5 marketing.
6 Q. Any other post-grad work?
7 A. No, other than I'm going through Leadership
8 Wyoming right now.
9 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to early
10 February of 2012 and the request that you conduct an
11 investigation into allegations that were made by Peg Brown-
12 Clark when she resigned her position as the division
13 director of the Wyoming Department of Education. Do you
14 recall that investigation?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. Who asked that the investigation be done?
17 A. I was approached by Megan Meisen and Liz Gagen,
18 and then I had a request in the form of a letter from Cindy
19 Hill to conduct the investigation.
20 Q. And what was the purpose of the investigation?
21 A. Originally, it was to look into some employee
22 complaints coming out of employees from the Riverton
23 office, I believe, and it turned into something a little
24 bit more involved than that.
25 Q. After your -- your answer suggests that at some
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 833
1 point in time the scope of your investigation changed?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Tell us about the scope of your investigation as
4 you performed the investigation.
5 A. Well, originally I was brought into the Hathaway
6 basement for a meeting with the Department of Education
7 employees when they came out from Riverton, and at that
8 time it was communicated to the employees that they could
9 speak with me, that I was being brought in to hear any
10 complaints.
11 I did have quite a few employees from the
12 Hathaway Building come and talk to me. So at that point I
13 asked if I could -- they were talking to me about some
14 other concerns regarding recruitment processes and at-will
15 letters and some other personnel information. So I had
16 asked if I could expand the scope of my investigation and
17 look at personnel files and improvement files and the PAIL,
18 which is the payroll report.
19 Q. Can you summarize for us the nature of the
20 complaints that were made by the employee?
21 A. I can.
22 Q. Just for clarification, have you brought your
23 files with you today to refer to if you need to?
24 A. I have.
25 Q. Go ahead.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 834
1 A. So the original allegations that I looked into,
2 five classified employees alleged that they signed at-will
3 letters. There are allegations that the highest scored
4 applicant was not always hired during the recruitment
5 process.
6 There was the appearance -- allegation of the
7 appearance that recruitments were not competitive and
8 preselection was occurring; an allegation that a contractor
9 was hired under a contract while dating an education
10 employee, and that education employee ended up indirectly
11 supervising the contractor, and then by the time the
12 education employee was supervising the contractor, they
13 were married.
14 Q. Did you complete your investigation?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. And did you prepare a report of your findings?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. What did you do with the report?
19 A. My normal process and what I did with this
20 process is I computer rough-drafted the report, and I
21 submit that to the AG's office for review. At that point
22 it was Liz Gagen. Liz and I reviewed it. At that point I
23 made some edits because the rough draft a lot of times
24 contains information that was not substantiated or there
25 wasn't enough information to fully come to a conclusion.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 835
1 So I edited it and completed my final report and submitted
2 it to John Masters.
3 Q. This has been a point of confusion, I think. Was
4 your draft report given to Cathy MacPherson?
5 A. Both copies of my report were given to Cathy
6 MacPherson.
7 Q. Okay. So let's see if we can clarify what
8 happened. As a result of the Attorney General's Office
9 review of your draft report, was the report modified?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 Q. In what way?
12 A. There were three allegations, one that I didn't
13 have any information at all, and so my report was not
14 completed in the first draft. There were two other
15 allegations that did not have any -- enough information to
16 really come to any conclusions or determined if anything
17 had happened. So those three came out.
18 Q. Did you agree with the suggested modifications by
19 Ms. Gagen?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. And when you prepared the final report, to whom
22 did you give it?
23 A. That was given to John Masters.
24 Q. And did you meet with Mr. Masters regarding your
25 findings?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 836
1 A. We did.
2 Q. If you'll look at that looseleaf notebook in
3 front of you, you should find a tab with your name on it
4 toward the back, if you can find under your name Exhibit 1.
5 Do you have it?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Does that appear to be the final report that you
8 made to Mr. Masters?
9 A. Yes, it does.
10 Q. And for the record, has that report been redacted
11 to delete names of individual employees and other
12 confidential information?
13 A. Yes, it has been redacted.
14 Q. So, to your knowledge -- it's my understanding
15 that in July the confidential report by Cathy MacPherson
16 was released on the request of one or more Wyoming news
17 outlets. Are you aware of that report?
18 A. I am aware of that.
19 Q. And does the report that now is Exhibit 1 match
20 the information that was publicly disclosed to the media?
21 A. It's been a while since I've looked at that. I
22 believe it does.
23 Q. All right. You can reference that report, if you
24 wish, or you can do it from your memory. Your choice. Can
25 you summarize the findings that you made in your final
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 837
1 report?
2 A. I did. And for the first allegation, I did find
3 it to appear that at least five classified employees were
4 required to sign at-will letters upon hire, which was in
5 conflict with an Attorney General's opinion letter that had
6 previously been received.
7 I also did find that more likely than not that
8 the highest scored applicant was not always hired. I did
9 find that education recruitments were not always
10 competitive, and it appeared that certain people were being
11 preselected to fill the vacancies. And I also found
12 that -- oh, there's still an initial here -- the employee
13 was at one point being indirectly supervised by her spouse.
14 Q. Do you know why you were -- at the time you were
15 the human resource manager for the Department of Family
16 Services, correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Did the Department of Education have a human
19 resource manager?
20 A. They did, Megan Meisen.
21 Q. And do you know why you were asked to perform
22 this investigation as opposed to the in-house HR manager?
23 A. Well, it's not unusual to be -- to partner with
24 other agencies for investigations. There's not that many
25 HR professionals in the state who can conduct personnel
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 838
1 investigations, and often when it's a larger scope and
2 involves a good portion of the agency, we'll ask other HR
3 professionals outside of the agency to come in and be a
4 more neutral factfinder.
5 It's not the first time I've done that.
6 Currently I do human resources for ten agencies. So I do
7 partner with a lot of different agencies even right now.
8 Also, their HR manager was relatively new and did
9 not have a lot of human resource experience and did not
10 know how to conduct the investigation, I believe, of this
11 scope.
12 Q. When you conducted your investigation, did any of
13 the employees express any concerns to you about potential
14 retaliation for any complaints that they made?
15 A. They did.
16 Q. Can you give us some estimate of the number of
17 employees who had that concern?
18 A. I would say a good majority of them. A lot of
19 them came to me as partners. They did not want to come
20 alone. They wanted to meet in my office. I'm on a
21 different floor. So they didn't want to be seen talking
22 with me. I --
23 Q. Go ahead.
24 A. I would say that's not particularly unusual when
25 you're conducting an investigation of that size.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 839
1 Q. You mentioned that the Department of Education HR
2 manager was new, relatively inexperienced. First of all,
3 what's the basis for that comment? How do you know that?
4 A. She had talked with me quite a bit. She would
5 call me even prior to the investigation, just ask me basic
6 human resource questions, such as how are personnel files
7 kept, how do you handle ADA, that sort of thing, basic
8 human resource functions.
9 Q. Are those functions something that you would
10 expect a human resource professional to be trained in?
11 A. Yes, especially if they're the supervisor or
12 manager level.
13 Q. Do you know what was done about the formal
14 findings that you made in your report?
15 A. After I presented them to John Masters?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I'm not officially aware. I do know I ran into
18 some Department of Education employees after the
19 investigation because I had worked in the same building as
20 them, and they were under the opinion that I would be
21 continuing to follow up with them after the investigation
22 was completed, but that was not part of my role. So I do
23 not -- according to them, they were never followed up with,
24 but I do not know officially.
25 Q. In your view as a human resource professional,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 840
1 who is responsible to address the findings that you made?
2 A. That's one of the -- a good question because we
3 don't -- the State does not have a formal investigation
4 process. I could tell you what my normal process would be,
5 which is not a formal process. Is that what you would like
6 me to talk about?
7 Q. No. My question is really what did you expect to
8 happen as a result of the findings in your investigation?
9 A. I would have expected that follow-up letters
10 would have gone out to each of the employees that had
11 participated in the investigation. If that was not clear
12 and that had remained confidential, I would have expected
13 an overall statement to go out to all employees that the
14 investigation had been concluded and things were
15 substantiated or not. And then if -- in a very broad
16 statement, if any personnel concerns had come up, they
17 would be addressed individually.
18 Q. And who, in your opinion, should have taken those
19 actions?
20 A. That would usually come from the human resource
21 manager or occasionally the director.
22 Q. The director is who?
23 A. For the education, it would have been the
24 superintendent, but most often, it would come from the
25 human resource manager.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 841
1 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Masters ever shared your
2 report with the superintendent?
3 A. I do not know.
4 Q. So there's an investigation that you did. There
5 were findings that you made. You suggested that there were
6 problems in the agency, correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And so far as you are aware from subsequent
9 comments from the employees of the Department of Education,
10 there was nothing ever done.
11 A. That's how it would appear, yes.
12 Q. One of the functions of this committee is to
13 consider potential legislative responses to problems that
14 are identified as a result of this hearing. Do you have
15 any view about what might be done to try and see that this
16 kind of thing is properly addressed?
17 A. I do have an opinion about that. There is a
18 problem right now that there is a very small handful of
19 human resource professionals who can conduct
20 investigations, and it becomes a very awkward situation
21 when you -- for example, if you are conducting an
22 investigation of your own agency that's agencywide, it
23 becomes very awkward to continue to have a human resource
24 relationship with those employees when you are conducting a
25 very uncomfortable investigation into them. And it also
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 842
1 happens that those of us who do conduct the investigations,
2 it becomes a full-time job where we're out doing
3 investigations quite a bit.
4 So it might not -- I know some ideas have been
5 tossed around about -- just casual talk about maybe having
6 the investigative team for personnel within the state
7 wherever that would end up being housed.
8 Q. All right. Now I'd like to direct your attention
9 to the time frame around January 23rd of 2013. Do you
10 recall the events of that day?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. What happened?
13 A. Can I get out my notes on that one?
14 Q. You can.
15 A. So on that day, I was called again by my director
16 at the time, Steve Corsi, and was asked to go down to the
17 Department of Education, that they needed my assistance
18 with another investigation.
19 So I did go down and met with Cindy Hill and Sam
20 Shumway, and there was a letter that had been given out
21 to I believe it was Representative Lubnau from an employee
22 at education talking about external accountability in
23 Senate File 104. And at that point to be -- I don't -- was
24 not following the news at that point. I'd been in the news
25 so much, I was trying to not listen to that anymore, and I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 843
1 didn't realize everything -- I knew what was happening in
2 education, but I didn't know what was happening on that
3 particular day. So I found out that that was the day that
4 they were getting ready to vote for Senate File 104.
5 But they had asked -- they said that there had
6 been a meeting in -- oh, was it November? There had been a
7 meeting prior, earlier at the Department of Education where
8 they had had a video shown in a meeting that involved a
9 video by a gentleman named Dr. Fullan. I am not sure. I
10 think it was F-u-l-l-a-n, I believe. And it was about
11 external accountability, and Cindy Hill and Sam Shumway had
12 asked me if I would interview some of the employees who had
13 been at that meeting and talk with them.
14 I was on my way to another meeting, so I asked if
15 I could come back up later in the afternoon and meet with
16 them and prepare for that.
17 So I did go back down to Family Services and then
18 came back up later to education, and I went back into Sam
19 Shumway's office and I met with Cindy Hill. She had a list
20 of people ready for me to question, and she had questions
21 for me to ask, and then she left the office and sent the
22 first employee into me and into Sam Shumway's office.
23 Q. Okay. Let's stop there. At the time -- we've
24 already heard testimony from Beth VanDeWege about the
25 letter that I think you're referring to that was sent to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 844
1 Speaker Lubnau. At the time that you were asked to come
2 and assist with this investigation, were you aware of what
3 that letter said?
4 A. I did not read the letter at that time.
5 Q. Were you aware at the time that the legislature
6 was in session and was considering Senate File 104?
7 A. No. Later in the day I became aware of that,
8 though.
9 Q. So you said you were asked to pose some questions
10 to the individual employees who had been marshalled for you
11 to interview?
12 A. Correct. At that time I didn't realize they were
13 being gathered. I knew that they were going to be sent
14 down to me, but I thought it would be one on one.
15 Q. Okay. So who prepared the questions that you
16 were supposed to ask of these employees?
17 A. Cindy Hill gave -- recommended the questions to
18 me. I did not see that there was an issue with any of the
19 questions, so I used those questions.
20 Q. And what were the questions?
21 A. Okay. So those questions were -- let me go to
22 those. You do remember the day Superintendent Hill met
23 with a group and showed a video of Dr. Fullan. Do you have
24 any concerns? And what did you hear Superintendent Hill
25 say?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 845
1 Q. Where were the interviews conducted?
2 A. The first one was in Sam Shumway's office, and
3 after that I moved into Cindy Hill's office, on the couch
4 in her office.
5 Q. And where were the employees who were to be
6 interviewed?
7 A. Are you asking me at that moment what was I aware
8 of or what did I later find out where the employees were?
9 Q. Both.
10 A. At that point I thought employees were being
11 called from their offices one at a time to come down and
12 talk with me, but I later found out that they were lined up
13 in the hall outside of the office.
14 Q. Was anybody with the employees when they were
15 lined up in the hallway?
16 A. There were. Jerry Zellars and Kevin Lewis and
17 Cindy Hill. I'm not sure how long they were all in the
18 hall, but they were on and off in the hall while the
19 employees were standing there.
20 Q. While you were conducting the interviews, did
21 Superintendent Hill enter her office?
22 A. She did on two different occasions while I had
23 employees in there.
24 Q. Did you understand that your interviews of these
25 employees should have been conducted just one on one?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 846
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that a common HR technique?
3 A. To interview -- conduct interviews just one on
4 one? Yes.
5 Q. Yes. Was it disturbing to you in any way that
6 the employees ended up lined up in the hallway waiting to
7 come in and see you?
8 A. I was concerned because it made the employees a
9 little bit more reluctant to talk to me, and it didn't feel
10 very confidential to them.
11 Q. When you arrived at the superintendent's office,
12 do you recall what Superintendent Hill was doing?
13 A. The first time or the second time?
14 Q. Let's talk about both.
15 A. The first time it was just Superintendent Hill
16 and Sam Shumway in Sam Shumway's office just waiting for
17 me.
18 Q. When was the second time? Explain, first of all,
19 when the second time occurred.
20 A. The second time was when I came up after my
21 meeting to get the list of questions and who I'd be meeting
22 with and start talking with the employees.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And at that time Superintendent Hill was upset.
25 She was talking with somebody on the phone, somebody from
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 847
1 up on the hill here with the name of Gary, but I don't know
2 who it was, what the last name was, and I don't know what
3 piece of the legislation it was from.
4 Q. Did you come to some conclusion regarding why you
5 were brought in to conduct these interviews?
6 A. This would just be my opinion.
7 Q. Uh-hum.
8 A. I felt that I was trying to get some -- well, I
9 don't know if I was trying to get this information or that
10 it was hopefully going to come out that there was some
11 information to counteract what was stated in that letter.
12 Q. And the letter you're referring to is the one
13 from Miss VanDeWege?
14 A. Miss VanDeWege.
15 Q. What did you find out from the employees that you
16 interviewed?
17 A. I can tell you their overall concerns. Most
18 of -- a good majority of the employees felt that the
19 meeting was held in response to something going on in the
20 media. It was a last-minute e-mail -- a last-minute
21 meeting with an e-mail sent out a little before 11:00 for
22 an 11:00 a.m. meeting on that day.
23 The reason is -- I'll just read a little bit here
24 if you don't mind as what came out of it. The reason
25 that --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 848
1 THE REPORTER: Can you start over?
2 A. Of course. Most employees believed that the
3 meeting was held in response to something going on in the
4 media. It was a last-minute meeting with an e-mail sent
5 out a little before 11:00 a.m. for an 11:00 a.m. meeting.
6 The recent history of media events and the background to
7 how these came to be were discussed.
8 The employees also believed it was to educate the
9 employees and help with fragmentation. They also believed
10 that the intent of the meeting was to help show employees
11 how efforts were being made to fix this fragmentation.
12 Other employees believed that the intent was to
13 justify Superintendent Hill's actions that employees were
14 not happy and that Superintendent Hill supported the
15 content of the video and wanted to continue these teachings
16 in Wyoming.
17 Also during this meeting employees were asked to
18 stand up and move forward a step for each pledge that they
19 responded yes to. These pledges included pledges to
20 support leadership and Superintendent Hill.
21 Once all employees moved forward, the group held
22 hands. The employees were not comfortable and felt that
23 the pledges and the hand holding were inappropriate and
24 awkward.
25 The employees did go around and introduce
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 849
1 themselves and spoke of their function in the agency, and
2 they did enjoy that piece.
3 So those were the overall comments that came out
4 of my investigation that day.
5 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) And for clarity, is what you
6 just read your work?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did Mr. Shumway ask you to provide a summary of
9 your report of your interviews?
10 A. He did.
11 Q. Anddidyoudothat?
12 A. Idid,butnotinitially.
13 Q. Andwhynotinitially?
14 A. My normal process as I did in the first
15 investigation was to go through the Attorney General's
16 Office before I submit anything to the agency. And I was
17 asked at that point not to go to the attorney general, and
18 I was not comfortable with that. So I did not submit the
19 documentation at that time.
20 I did at that point contact Liz Gagen because
21 that is my normal process, and she did help me prepare
22 something to send over at that time.
23 Q. Do you know what Sam Shumway's position was at
24 the Department of Education?
25 A. Legalcounsel.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 850
1 Q. Did he -- who was it that asked you not to share
2 that information with the Attorney General's Office?
3 A. That was Sam Shumway.
4 Q. Did he tell you why he didn't want you to share
5 that information with the Attorney General's Office?
6 A. He told me that they would go ahead and review
7 the information I sent over and then decided if it needed
8 to be shared with the AG's office.
9 Q. So what did you do?
10 A. I went ahead and contacted Liz Gagen at the
11 Attorney General's Office.
12 Q. And did you ultimately prepare at least a short
13 summary report to Mr. Shumway?
14 A. I did. It was that e-mail, and that is what I
15 just read to you.
16 Q. Okay. I wasn't aware that you were reading from
17 the e-mail. Would you look at in the exhibit book Benner
18 Exhibit 2?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And so these are your conclusions that you
21 shared with Sam Shumway?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Did you have any further conversation with
24 Mr. Shumway about that e-mail?
25 A. I did. At this time I took notes of every
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 851
1 conversation so that I was very clear. So what happened
2 next, on January -- let me see what day it was -- January
3 28th I was out of the office. I was working but outside of
4 the office that day, and Sam Shumway and Megan Meisen, who
5 became Megan Harper, came down to my office to see me, and
6 I was not there. So Sam called me on my cell phone. Would
7 you like me to state what that conversation was about?
8 Q. Yes, yes.
9 A. So he stated that they did not agree with part of
10 my summary in the e-mail when I wrote that employees were
11 uncomfortable pledging to support leadership and
12 Superintendent Hill. He stated that he was at that meeting
13 and felt that it was more of a promise to serve the
14 children of Wyoming, and I let him know that this was not
15 my opinion or my wording, that this was just the summary of
16 what the employees I had spoken with had spoken about in my
17 summary of what my meetings had contained.
18 Shumway said that Superintendent Hill was quite
19 upset about this and that I did not need to move forward
20 with any steps, that this was the end of my involvement.
21 Q. Did he suggest to you that you needed to change
22 your summary about what the employees told you?
23 A. He did not say those exact words to me, no.
24 Q. The answer suggests that you had the opinion.
25 A. It felt that way to me. But that's not exactly
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 852
1 what he said.
2 Q. Did you change your summary in any way?
3 A. No.
4 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
5 That's all I have for Miss Benner. Do you want me to ask
6 the basic questions from Superintendent Hill?
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Please.
8 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you. If I could find
9 them.
10 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Miss Benner, the
11 superintendent was given an opportunity to provide
12 questions that she wants all witnesses to answer.
13 Are you familiar with the penalties for perjury
14 and that you are subject to those penalties should you
15 provide false testimony?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you speak to anyone prior to today about your
18 testimony before this committee, including Mr. Jarosh,
19 Mr. Salzburg, or representatives from their firms, members
20 of the legislature or other staff or employees of the
21 State, such as the Governor's Office or the Wyoming
22 Department of Education regarding these proceedings today
23 or Senate File 104?
24 A. I have spoken with you, Bruce Salzburg. On
25 November 26th, I met with you for two hours, and you called
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 853
1 me prior to that to set up that meeting. And I also spoke
2 with you on December 30th for an hour and a half, and what
3 we spoke about was what we've spoken about today. I've
4 also spoken with the Attorney General's Office a little bit
5 when I've had questions about some information I was
6 talking about --
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. -- with Liz Gagen.
9 Q. All right. I don't want you to talk about
10 conversations that you had with Liz Gagen if they related
11 to attorney-client advice, all right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But your conversations with me, can you describe
14 those in detail?
15 A. In our first meeting I brought in all of my
16 documentation, and you asked me some questions about some
17 of the information I had provided through the original
18 subpoena through Dean Fausset, and I answered questions
19 about that. That was our first two-hour meeting.
20 And then our second meeting on December 30th was
21 just to talk with me a little bit about that I would --
22 that I was going to be testifying and to talk with me a
23 little bit about that.
24 Q. Did the attorneys or their representatives
25 instruct you that your testimony must be truthful and, if
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 854
1 based on speculation, conjecture or opinion, must be stated
2 as such?
3 A. You asked me if I was aware that I would be under
4 oath, and I said yes. And you asked me if I knew what that
5 meant, and I said yes.
6 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
7 related to your testimony?
8 A. Yes, I am.
9 Q. Have you provided those documents to the
10 committee and the superintendent?
11 A. I have provided them to the committee through a
12 subpoena and also through the MacPherson report.
13 Q. Do the statements attributed to you in the
14 MacPherson report accurately reflect your testimony to that
15 committee?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you affirm under oath all of the statements
18 attributed to you in the MacPherson report?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. SALZBURG: I'm finished. Thank you,
21 Mr. Chairman.
22 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Thank you,
23 Mr. Salzburg. Unless you want to take over.
24 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: He left me in
25 charge --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 855
1 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Okay.
2 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: -- believe it or
3 not.
4 Mr. Salzburg, were there any topics with this
5 witness that required executive session?
6 MR. SALZBURG: I spoke briefly with
7 Miss Benner beforehand. We had redacted all the
8 information from the report that might be confidential. I
9 did that in consult with the Attorney General's Office. I
10 advised Ms. Benner before I asked her to come and testify
11 that if we got into questions related to specific employees
12 that she was not to identify them by name. If the
13 committee is going to ask questions about particular
14 employees by name, then we may have to go into executive
15 session.
16 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Committee, any
17 questions for this witness? Representative Stubson.
18 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Thank you, ma'am.
19 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
20 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON) Chairman and
21 Ms. Benner. Just a couple of questions about this -- the
22 meeting and the interviews that you did in January. The
23 list of questions that you were given, I'm just curious if
24 that is a common practice when you do an investigation that
25 you're given a script of questions or are you usually given
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 856
1 issues to look into? How does that typically work?
2 A. Madam Chairman. Representative Stubson, normally
3 I would develop those questions myself based upon the
4 issues and then develop additional questions as the
5 interview went on.
6 Q. Madam Chairman and Ms. Benner, in this particular
7 case when you conducted the interviews, did you develop
8 your own questions as you went along or did you kind of
9 stick with that script that was provided to you by the
10 superintendent?
11 A. Madam Chairman. Representative Stubson, I just
12 stuck with the questions that I had been given.
13 Q. Madam Chairman and Ms. Benner, did employees
14 voluntarily go beyond that during their time with you? Did
15 they provide you additional information or did you find
16 that they stuck pretty close with that?
17 A. Madam Chairman. Representative Stubson, some
18 employees did go above and beyond that. There were some
19 employees that I had met with previously in the first
20 investigation, and they talked a little bit more freely
21 with me.
22 Q. And Madam Chair and Ms. Benner, how much time,
23 approximately, did you spend with each of the employees
24 that you've met with?
25 A. Madam Chair. Representative Stubson, it was very
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 857
1 short, maybe -- some employees weren't even at the meeting,
2 so that would have been a couple of minutes. Maybe five,
3 ten minutes with each one for an average.
4 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: All right. Thank
5 you.
6 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Representative
7 Zwonitzer.
8 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thanks, Madam
9 Chairman.
10 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Miss Benner, you
11 said after your second interaction with the leadership team
12 that you decided to take notes of every conversation from
13 this point on. Why?
14 A. Madam Chairman. Representative Zwonitzer, I --
15 you're asking me an opinion question.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. So I felt that it was odd the way that it was
18 being conducted, and it was not my normal process, so I
19 felt that I needed to document everything that was
20 happening.
21 Q. Did you express -- Madam Chairman -- express
22 concerns to Director Corsi or Ms. Gagen that this was out
23 of your realm of expertise or that the project was not what
24 you were told originally?
25 A. Madam Chairman. Representative Zwonitzer, I did
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 858
1 express concerns to my director at the time that not
2 necessarily that it was outside of my area of expertise,
3 but that I felt uncomfortable with the way things were
4 being conducted. I did not go into details with him
5 because it wasn't appropriate to share with another agency
6 director what was happening with another agency.
7 Q. Madam Chairman. In your meetings with all these
8 employees, did any of them express concerns with their
9 current HR manager, Miss Meisen, Harper, or express
10 concerns they could go to her with these type of issues?
11 A. Madam Chair. Representative Zwonitzer, are you
12 talking about the first investigation or the second one?
13 Q. I would say either. During your time
14 interviewing WDE employees, did any of them express
15 concerns --
16 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. Could you start
17 over? "During your time..."
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) During your
19 interview that you conducted with WDE employees, did any of
20 the employees express concerns with their HR supervisor or
21 the fact that they couldn't go to her?
22 A. During the first investigation, I would say yes
23 to that. They were concerned that she had lack of
24 experience, and they weren't comfortable that she would
25 know exactly what she was doing. They were also -- they
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 859
1 also mentioned that they felt she was part of the
2 leadership team, which they did not have an overall trust
3 for, so they did not trust her either is what was stated to
4 me.
5 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Any additional
6 questions, committee?
7 I have a couple, and then you can take over
8 again.
9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Ms. Benner, with
10 regard to the January 2013 interview series, what was the
11 human resources issue as you understood it when you were
12 asked to conduct those interviews?
13 A. Madam Chairman, that's a very good question. A
14 lot of times whenever something involves employees or
15 something that's happened during a meeting, there's not
16 really another avenue necessarily to go to to do the
17 questioning. So sometimes human resources are called in to
18 activities that you might not know if they're human
19 resources or not at the beginning. But whenever it
20 involves personnel, I think that that would have been why I
21 was brought in because it involved personnel in a meeting
22 that happened in personnel satisfaction.
23 Q. During the interview process, did you identify
24 the human resource issue, any personnel rule issue,
25 anything of that nature?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 860
1 A. Madam Chairman, no.
2 Q. And then my last question is really sort of a
3 policy question because obviously you are an expert in this
4 field. In your opinion, in state government would it be
5 better to have HR folks who are classified employees so
6 that employees perhaps would feel more comfortable going to
7 them, that they'd -- that the HR person would be a little
8 more insulated from management in a classified position?
9 A. Madam Chairman, do you mean classified versus at
10 will?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Most human resource professionals in the state
13 are classified. There's only a handful that are at will.
14 So...
15 Q. And do you believe -- I'll be more specific about
16 WDE. Do you think it mattered at WDE that the human
17 resource person was an at-will employee?
18 A. Madam Chairman, that's a good question. I think
19 for the human resource manager herself, I think it's better
20 for a human resource professional to be classified because
21 it does put you in an awkward situation. When you're at
22 will a lot of times you're going against -- giving
23 recommendations against management's decisions, and you're
24 kind of the counter to what they're saying. So that is
25 awkward for a human resource professional.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 861
1 For the employees I don't know if that would make
2 a difference to them or not. It might appear to them that
3 the human resource manager is less likely. I would hope
4 that this would not be the case. And from the human
5 resource professionals that are never at will, that would
6 not be the case, but for the employees, I would wonder
7 about that.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Patton.
9 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Thank you,
10 Mr. Chairman.
11 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PATTON) Just to get the
12 chronology kind of in order. The report that was written
13 in March of 2012, in the summary of that you refer to the
14 first time on that next summary page, the five classified
15 employees were required to sign letters upon hire to
16 conflict and conflict to the attorney general's opinion
17 that was previously stated. Is that the Office of the
18 Attorney General's opinion that's in our packet dated
19 August 25, 2011?
20 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Patton, let me find
21 that letter for you. It is the one that's dated August 25,
22 2011, yes. Is that the date that you had said? I'm sorry.
23 Q. So follow-up, Mr. Chairman. Is it my assumption,
24 then, that you were aware of this letter at the time that
25 you made the investigations in August and March for 2012?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 862
1 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Patton, yes, I was
2 aware of the letter.
3 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Thank you.
4 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Mr. Speaker.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
6 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Thanks.
7 Another -- a pending question, but in your professional
8 opinion working for the State of Wyoming in human
9 resources, classified employees are required to meet
10 minimum education and experience standards to be hired. Do
11 you believe that if a WDE human resource position had been
12 a classified position with a position description that the
13 HR supervisor, Megan Harper, would have met the minimum
14 qualifications to obtain that position as a classified
15 employee?
16 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Zwonitzer, I don't
17 know the answer to that. The minimum qualifications even
18 with the classified employee are very minimal. So
19 sometimes education in general is enough without
20 experience. I don't know at that position what the
21 minimums would have been and what her educational
22 background was, if she would have qualified or not.
23 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Okay.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other questions,
25 committee?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 863
1 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Miss Benner, Superintendent
2 Hill has e-mailed me a list of questions that she would
3 like me to ask you.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. So these are questions from Superintendent Hill.
6 Would you please provide the notes, sir -- would you please
7 provide the notes that you referred to during your
8 testimony to the committee and to the superintendent? Are
9 you comfortable doing that?
10 A. Mr. Chairman, which notes?
11 Q. The notes that you -- you referred to an e-mail.
12 Were there other notes that you referred to in your
13 testimony?
14 A. It was the -- Mr. Chairman, it was the
15 information I submitted to the committee.
16 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: It's Exhibit 1.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay.
18 A. And Exhibit 2 as well, the one that I read from.
19 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Exhibit 1 and Exhibit 2. So
20 they've already been submitted?
21 A. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
22 Q. Who else was present when you spoke with John
23 Masters on March 5, 2012?
24 A. Mr. Chairman, that was Liz Gagen.
25 Q. Did the superintendent want an independent review
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 864
1 so she could receive your independent advice?
2 A. Mr. Chairman, yes, but my contact that I was
3 advised by Superintendent Hill was to be John Masters.
4 Q. Were you aware of any retaliation by the
5 superintendent related to your work?
6 A. Mr.Chairman,no.
7 Q. Were you aware of any retaliation by the
8 superintendent at any time?
9 A. Mr.Chairman,no.
10 Q. Was Megan Meisen newly hired at the time she
11 required your assistance?
12 A. Mr. Chairman, I believe that she was.
13 Q. Isn't it the role of your present job to provide
14 HR training to HR managers and supervisors?
15 A. Mr. Chairman, no, not outside of my own agency.
16 Q. Did you provide HR training to Ms. Meisen?
17 A. Mr. Chairman, no, but if she did call me with
18 questions, I would answer them. That is something we do
19 amongst ourselves in the human resources field here.
20 Q. Did you advise Miss Megan to issue the follow-up
21 letters that you described?
22 A. Mr.Chairman,no.
23 Q. Have you ever asked questions to any other HR
24 professionals?
25 A. Mr. Chairman, in general or about anything
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 865
1 specific?
2 Q. I think in general. Just have you ever asked
3 somebody for advice I think is the point of that.
4 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know if I've necessarily
5 asked for advice, but we do talk. We sometimes have
6 meetings to go over human resource changes.
7 Q. Are you currently the HR professional for the
8 office of the Wyoming superintendent?
9 A. Mr. Chairman, I am. That's one of my ten
10 agencies I support right now.
11 Q. At any time did you receive complaints from the
12 staff of the Office of Superintendent of Public
13 Instruction?
14 A. Mr. Chairman, yes.
15 Q. Did you investigate those complaints?
16 A. Mr. Chairman, no, because they were not employees
17 of OSPI. They were employees of another agency of which
18 I'm not human resources, and I was not permissioned to do
19 an investigation there.
20 Q. Isn't it true that you assigned the OSPI
21 complaints to a brand-new HR manager at the WDE to
22 investigate?
23 A. Mr. Chairman, she was the human resource manager
24 who replaced Megan Meisen. I don't know if she was
25 brand-new human resource manager in general, but I know she
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 866
1 was new to education, and that was through the advisement
2 of the Attorney General's Office, yes.
3 Q. Why did you refuse to investigate those
4 complaints?
5 A. Mr. Chairman, I did not refuse to investigate
6 them. It was not -- it was not appropriate for me to
7 investigate another agency's employees without the request
8 of the director of that agency asking me to.
9 Q. Isn't it true that Superintendent Hill asked you
10 to interview these employees so she could get a greater
11 understanding about potential employee concerns?
12 A. Mr. Chairman, that's correct. And I did pass
13 everything to Shauna Cobb, the HR manager at the time. And
14 that would have been her role or the director at that
15 time's role of education to do or, if they so desired, ask
16 me to participate in that.
17 Q. Do you think your work provided greater
18 understanding for those involved?
19 A. Mr. Chairman, I would say yes.
20 Q. Are you now the HR director for the State of
21 Wyoming -- you are now the HR director for the State of
22 Wyoming; isn't that correct?
23 A. Mr. Chairman, no, not for the whole State of
24 Wyoming. Just for A&I and those other nine agencies I
25 support.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 867
1 Q. As HR director of the State of Wyoming, do you
2 have any concern about the public release of the MacPherson
3 report, particularly the confidential portion of the report
4 which included a great deal of personnel information?
5 A. Mr. Chairman, I feel that that went through the
6 process it needed to go through to be released. I did
7 not -- I don't have an opinion about that.
8 Q. And you indicated that in your first
9 investigation employees expressed concerns about Megan
10 Meisen. Where did you discuss these concerns in your
11 report?
12 A. Mr. Chairman, I did not address those concerns in
13 that report, but let me see one thing, if you don't mind.
14 I did discuss that with Liz Gagen, but I did not put that
15 as part of my report. It was not an allegation that came
16 out. It was something that was -- it would not have been
17 part of my report typically.
18 Q. In your current position are you an at-will
19 employee?
20 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
21 "It would have been a part of my report"?
22 THE WITNESS: It would not have typically
23 been a piece of my report. It would not have typically
24 been a piece of my report.
25 A. Mr. Chairman, I am not an at-will employee right
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 868
1 now. I'm classified.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ms. Benner -- committee,
3 do you have any questions?
4 Miss Benner, those are all the questions we have.
5 Thank you very much for coming and spending part of your
6 morning with us.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I know these are never
9 fun, but thank you for sharing with us.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Committee, any objections
12 to releasing Miss Benner from her subpoena?
13 Miss Benner, you are released.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Have a safe trip to
16 Riverton?
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, would you call
19 your next witness.
20 MR. SALZBURG: Bill Pannell, please.
21 CHAIRMAN LUBNAU: Mr. Pannell, did you
22 receive the initial advisement with your subpoena?
23 THE WITNESS: I did.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: And did you read it?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 869
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you understand it?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you rise and raise
6 your right hand, please.
7 (Witness sworn.)
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel.
9 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
10 WILLIAMDAVIDPANNELL,
11 called for examination by the Select Investigative
12 Committee, being first duly sworn, on his oath testified as
13 follows:
14 EXAMINATION
15 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Would you state your full
16 name, please.
17 A. William David Pannell.
18 Q. Mr. Pannell, have you been in the room when we
19 have discussed the general guidelines for giving your
20 testimony?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you understand them?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. By whom are you employed?
25 A. The Wyoming Department of Education.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 870
1 Q. And what position do you hold?
2 A. I am the supervisor for the accreditation and
3 support section.
4 Q. What are the duties of that position?
5 A. As I stated, overseeing school -- or excuse me --
6 school and district accreditation and the statewide system
7 of support.
8 Q. Can you tell me what the statewide system of
9 support does?
10 A. The statewide system of support is statutorily
11 mandated, I guess, through Section 1117 of No Child Left
12 Behind, and it is essentially for providing support to
13 Title I schools and improvement.
14 The statewide system of support as -- in No Child
15 Left Behind allows states some flexibility in how they do
16 that. It can be either through school support teams,
17 distinguished educators or what's been referred to as
18 coaches or through other channels, which would mean like
19 universities, things like that.
20 Then under the passage of the Wyoming
21 Accountability and Education Act, Wyoming Statute
22 21-2-204(f) requires a statewide system of support. So
23 what we always viewed it as is being trying to combine
24 federal and state support in a kind of one system of
25 support.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 871
1 The state statute takes effect this next fall,
2 2014-'15, and it's a little more specific in the idea of
3 requiring basically representative support and developing
4 and implementing improvement plans for districts with the
5 focus being on school and district improvement.
6 Q. You mentioned early in that response that part of
7 the duties of the statewide system of support section or
8 division, whatever it is, was to address schools in
9 improvement.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What do you mean by "schools in improvement"?
12 A. Well, under the No Child Left Behind
13 accountability system there are schools that make adequate
14 yearly progress and schools that don't make adequate yearly
15 progress. The first year of not making adequate yearly
16 progress is what they call a warning year, and then after
17 that, after they have not made adequate yearly progress for
18 more than a year, they go into improvement status. So it's
19 year 2 plus in improvement.
20 Q. How long have you been employed by the Wyoming
21 Department of Education?
22 A. Since June 1, 2003.
23 Q. So going back in time, which supervisors -- I'm
24 sorry, which superintendents of public instruction have you
25 been working for or have you worked for?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 872
1 A. If I can inject. I've worked for the Department
2 of Ed since June 2003 and have been in this position since
3 the 1st of November, 2011.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. So there's been a position change within the
6 Department for me. I've been -- I was employed by
7 Dr. Trent Blankenship, Dr. Jim McBride and Superintendent
8 Hill.
9 Q. And you mentioned that you have previously held a
10 different position?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What was that?
13 A. I was an education consultant in the Career
14 Technical Education section.
15 Q. Is the Career Technical Education section under
16 the support system, the human resources division?
17 A. I believe that's the name of that division, yes.
18 Q. What's your educational background?
19 A. I have a bachelor's degree in agriculture
20 education from the University of Wyoming. I have about 45
21 hours beyond a bachelor's degree in education, 12 years of
22 teaching experience.
23 Q. In your capacity as accreditation and support
24 supervisor, did you have an opportunity to supervise an
25 employee named Brian Ross?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 873
1 A. I did.
2 Q. What position did he hold?
3 A. He held a position number 0028, which was an ETEP
4 8 position that was primarily responsible for teacher of
5 the year and parent liaison.
6 MR. SALZBURG: I hate to do this,
7 Mr. Speaker. We need to go into executive session now.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I will advise all the
9 members of the committee, staff and representatives of the
10 OSPI and WDE that all testimony received in executive
11 session is confidential and privileged and shall remain so
12 until such time as this committee determines additional
13 legislative action is required based on that testimony.
14 The Wyoming Ethics and Disclosure Act provides at
15 9-13-105(c) that: A public official, public employee or
16 public member shall not disseminate to another person,
17 official information which the public official, public
18 employee or public member obtains through or in connection
19 with his position, unless the information is available to
20 the general public or unless the dissemination is
21 authorized by law. Further dissemination of testimony you
22 are about to hear is not authorized and may be punishable
23 as a criminal offense under 9-13-109(a) or by removal from
24 your office or official position under 9-13-109(b).
25 Counsel, go ahead.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 874
1 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Just a second before.
3 Ian, we're off?
4 MR. SHAW: Yeah.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Go ahead.
6 (Pages 875 through 907 are confidential
7 and sealed in a separate transcript.)
8 *****
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 908
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 908
1 (Thefollowingoccurredin
2 opensession.)
3 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Counsel,wheneveryou're
4 ready.
5 MR.SALZBURG: Thankyou,Mr.Speaker.
6 FURTHEREXAMINATION
7 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Mr. Pannell, I want to shift
8 gears now to the question of whether employees who were
9 hired were preselected by the leadership team, and in the
10 executive session do you recall that we identified by name
11 a particular employee that you and I have discussed?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. All right. Were you on the interview team that
14 interviewed that particular employee?
15 A. I was.
16 Q. And prior to the interviews related to the
17 vacancy for which that employee had applied, were you told
18 which candidate the leadership team wanted to hire?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Without -- again, without naming the individual
21 employee, tell us what you were told.
22 A. Simply that this is the one that they want.
23 Q. Andwhotoldyouthat?
24 A. SeanMoore.
25 Q. And what was his relationship to you?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 909
1 A. He was my supervisor, my boss, the division
2 director.
3 Q. And how did this particular employee stack up
4 against the other candidates who had applied for the
5 position?
6 A. Well, this was my concern and why I voiced it to
7 the MacPherson report is that the job, as we understood
8 what we were interviewing for, was an administrative
9 assistant for Jerry Zellars, and the pool -- I can't
10 remember who the -- I know that there was at least the one
11 we interviewed and then somebody, as I recall, out of like
12 California being interviewed over the phone. And it was
13 like there was only one candidate that was even a
14 reasonable prospect as an administrative assistant even
15 though you know there's got to be hundreds of applicants
16 for -- qualified applicants for every job.
17 As it turns out, then this person is more of a --
18 has some other duties above and beyond a new administrative
19 assistant and was initially hired to work out of a
20 different town. And I'm trying to be real vague so that I
21 don't identify them, but I just felt like there was one of
22 the cases where we were told in an answer we were going to
23 hire, and the deck was stacked to the point there was no
24 way we could not hire.
25 Q. Was the individual who was hired qualified for
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 910
1 the position?
2 A. I have no reason to think not. I mean, yes, the
3 individual that was hired was well qualified. It was the
4 question as to whether or not -- whether or not it was a --
5 the selection process was fair because of the -- because of
6 the other applicants.
7 Q. Were there people hired by the Department, in
8 your view, based upon their relationship or friendship with
9 the leadership team?
10 A. I would say that there have been people that have
11 been preferentially -- had opportunities because of their
12 relationship with the leadership team, yes.
13 Q. Can you give any examples?
14 A. The human resource supervisor's future
15 mother-in-law being hired. You know, whether she would
16 have been found in a pool of applicants without that
17 particular thing or not is -- you know, whether she would
18 have been found in the pool of applicants without having
19 been filtered out like that, I don't know. That would be
20 one example.
21 Q. Any others that you can think of?
22 A. Well, again, I mentioned the one that ultimately
23 ended up working in my section, I felt like had been -- and
24 again, very well qualified, and I love working with her to
25 this day, but I felt like she'd been preferentially
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 911
1 selected, yes.
2 Q. In the report that you provided to the governor's
3 inquiry team, Cathy MacPherson, you stated that you were
4 not aware of anything that occurred that was blatantly
5 illegal, but you could tell many stories that range from
6 bizarre behavior to leadership incompetence. Can you give
7 the committee an example of what you felt to be leadership
8 incompetence?
9 A. Yes. You know, most -- most times if you looked
10 at any kind of an organization, be it a school, a district
11 or whatever, there are some things that would just normally
12 be in place as part of an organizational structure. One
13 would be a normal organization chart that looks somewhat
14 like a Christmas tree. There would be a policy book.
15 There would be, you know, the policies that are followed.
16 There might be a mission about core values, goals. I mean
17 the sense of mission is clear. Clear leadership structure,
18 those kind of things. And none of that -- and an awful lot
19 of that, in my opinion, just simply didn't exist.
20 There were documents that could be showed, but
21 there wasn't this clear focus, clear vision, all that that
22 you would necessarily expect to see or think you should see
23 in an organization.
24 And there was -- you know, there was just so much
25 chaos and dysfunction created by this idea of a leadership
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 912
1 team rather than a leadership structure. It kind of
2 settled out toward the end where we were still kind of
3 following the -- at least to the division director level
4 that it was kind of -- kind of we were still following the
5 same process mostly because of signatures on travel forms
6 and one thing and another.
7 But when we basically early on took this idea of
8 flattening the organizational chart and adding a --
9 flattening the organizational chart and putting children at
10 the center of the organizational chart and all this kind of
11 stuff and focusing on literacy and numeracy and critical
12 thinking and all of these kind of things, the rank-and-file
13 employee did not understand the direction or the goals of
14 the organization.
15 And also it just kind of created chaos and
16 confusion and dysfunction about who worked for who and how
17 this all worked and what were the policies they were
18 following and so on and so forth.
19 And again, I want to clarify this is my opinion.
20 You'd have to interview others, but that's the way I viewed
21 the organizational structure within the Department.
22 Q. If you look in the book that's in front of you,
23 would you take a look at Pannell Exhibit 2?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And tell us what that is.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 913
1 A. Well, if I can clarify for a moment, there's two
2 main rules within my section. One of them is accreditation
3 and the other one is support. The accreditation is
4 statutorily required, and it's also clearly spelled out in
5 Chapter 6 of the rules and regulations, and the purpose of
6 accreditation is statutory compliance and continuous
7 improvement.
8 The statutory compliance part of that is
9 typically done by the Department of Education. The
10 continuous improvement part of it is done by AdvancEd.
11 They've always worked in unison and worked together to
12 accomplish this accreditation process. AdvancEd has a
13 twice-a-year school improvement conference that is based on
14 their continuous improvement deal. It's always been a
15 joint effort between the Department of Ed and AdvancEd.
16 We were basically forbidden to attend the
17 AdvancEd conference, although some employees did fill out
18 travel preparation forms. Some employees did attend the
19 AdvancEd conference, but as a whole we were -- at least
20 believed we were being told that we could not attend or
21 communicate with or participate with AdvancEd.
22 So the accreditation part of this was really a
23 tenuous arrangement because we were paying AdvancEd to do
24 continuous improvement on one hand and not supported on the
25 other, and we were not participating in the AdvancEd
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 914
1 conference. So we were not only -- I mean, these two
2 school improvement conferences are like our major venue for
3 sharing ideas and all of that.
4 So we were basically shut off from the rest of
5 the state as -- and so -- and then as far as I do want to
6 clarify that we still -- because AdvancEd continued to do
7 their statutory or their contracted obligation and then our
8 people were going out and doing statutory assurances
9 separate from the AdvancEd accreditation visit -- usually
10 they're kind of done in unison -- we were able -- I don't
11 believe that we dropped the ball statutorily or anything
12 like that, but it was just inconvenient to us, it was
13 inconvenient to the district, and it seemed strange to me
14 that we were being told the major conference we were
15 participating in, for years I was required to participate
16 in, I was not allowed to attend it.
17 So the accreditation part of it was kind of in
18 shambles. And then the -- again, I outlined on the first
19 part of this that there are basically two statutes, Section
20 1117 of No Child Left Behind and 21-2-204(f) that dictates
21 what the system or support should be. When you take those
22 words out of context and turn system of support into any
23 kind of agency initiative around professional development,
24 whatever it is we feel like doing, department initiatives,
25 3+8, T2T, SpLit, so on and so forth, and call that all
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 915
1 system of support, it kind of creates a muddled mess.
2 But the truth is that it's fairly well -- fairly
3 well detailed in statute and would be fairly easy to
4 implement, but I couldn't ever get anything moved forward.
5 One of the reasons I wanted this job in the first
6 place is because I understood the statutory background in
7 it. I understood the support from the federal government.
8 The system was laid out, and so it should have been just
9 simply a case of laying it out on their 15-point rubric and
10 so on and so forth and moving forward. But the challenge
11 has been with all of the stuff thrown in here on the side.
12 So to finally get to the picture, what the
13 picture is is that as the Senate File 104 was almost to go
14 through that Kevin and Sheryl called me in to give me their
15 vision of what they thought the system of support should
16 look like for the future.
17 And this was the way they typically communicated
18 with me was in these lines and drawings and whirlwind and
19 chaos and all this kind of stuff to where you just kind of
20 figure out how to make it actionable.
21 I wrote plans practically every day. I could
22 show you -- we were tasked with creating a design document
23 and implementation plan, and getting it down to something
24 that these people would agree with was almost impossible
25 even though I'm not going to sit and say that any plan will
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 916
1 improve schools, but I am going to say it would be fairly
2 easy to write a plan that actually meets the requirements
3 of the law.
4 Q. Mr. Pannell, why did you take the photograph?
5 A. Just to -- for history, just for memory.
6 Q. Did I understand you correctly that the mission
7 for your section is fairly clearly set out in statute?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that statute is 21-2-204(f)?
10 A. That would be the Wyoming statute. However,
11 Section 1117 of No Child Left Behind has been around for
12 years.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. I do want to qualify one thing. The coaches that
15 have been discussed the entire time for the last couple
16 days that, again, as I started out with, there are only --
17 there is some latitude in federal law as to what you can
18 do.
19 Before my time the decision was made through the
20 Title I committee of practitioners that the -- and approved
21 by the federal government is this idea of coaches,
22 distinguished educators working in Title I schools, was the
23 approved system of support by the federal government.
24 There could have been other approved systems of support,
25 but that was the approved system of support was using these
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 917
1 coaches as the system of support for Wyoming for the No
2 Child Left Behind.
3 Whether or not the coaches as they -- I didn't
4 ever view Jane Brummond, Joan Brutsman and them as being
5 coaches under the -- you know, again, I inherited that
6 deal, and I certainly never viewed them as being part of
7 our organization.
8 Q. When did Mr. Crandall take over the reins of the
9 Wyoming Department of Education?
10 A. August 1st, I believe.
11 Q. So we're four and a half or five months into his
12 administration?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Since Mr. Crandall has become the director of the
15 Department, has there been any progress with the model of
16 the systems or as envisioned by the legislature?
17 A. I believe so, yes. Do you want me to expound on
18 that?
19 Q. Sure.
20 A. The model of the system of support as we're
21 seeing right now is basically turning -- and this is
22 probably what we should have viewed it as a long time
23 ago -- is viewing the basic roles of the Department of Ed
24 as -- you know, again, this is as I understand it rather
25 than if you wanted to ask Mr. Crandall his position, you'd
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 918
1 have to ask him directly, but as I'm understanding it is
2 the major roles are going to be support, compliance and
3 basically intergovernmental operations.
4 And so support will be one of the overall agency
5 initiatives where -- so if a school is having difficulty
6 within their special populations, then the logical approach
7 would be to send people from the special populations,
8 special ed division to provide that support. So it would
9 be overall an agency initiative at least still maintaining
10 coaches and WDE representatives and school improvement
11 plans and all the requirement of the law using the entire
12 agency in support rather than just a small subsection of
13 people.
14 Q. I want to direct your attention, Mr. Pannell, to
15 another incident that you cited apparently in the
16 MacPherson report. And to give you some context, as I
17 understand what you told Catherine MacPherson, it is that
18 after Senate File 104 was apparently going to pass, one of
19 the legislators gave the superintendent a plaque that had a
20 by Bible quote on it. Do you recall that?
21 A. I recall the meeting, and I believe it was one of
22 the legislators, but I wasn't there when she received it.
23 Q. So tell us about the meeting.
24 A. Well, it was as all of this Senate File 104 deal
25 was kind of coming down and the discussion -- it was, you
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 919
1 know, obviously a pretty high anxiety type of environment.
2 We were in a meeting one day, and somebody asked
3 Superintendent Hill about that plaque, and she sort of on
4 an impromptu deal got everybody to hold hands, and I
5 believe we held hands. Anyway, we stood in a circle, and
6 then she offered up a prayer that we would be delivered
7 from the -- you know, I've been widely quoted as saying
8 great transgressions, but I'm not sure I said that. I'm
9 not sure that that's not the words of Cathy MacPherson
10 other than me, but the idea was is that they will be
11 delivered from the oppression of the legislature.
12 Q. During your employment in the Department under
13 the administration of Superintendent Hill, did you support
14 her initiatives?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Wereyousuccessful?
17 A. You know, to some extent. I can't sit here and
18 say that the last few years have been all that bad for me.
19 You know, adversity creates opportunity, and I came out of
20 it with a better position than I had and a position that I
21 had always wanted. The position before that was in
22 Laramie, and I didn't really want to move to Laramie. And
23 so the cards kind of fell into place for me to get a job
24 that I wanted for years at the Department.
25 And so, no, I would say that, you know, things
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 920
1 haven't been that -- weren't that bad for me. However, I
2 will say that as I went into in some detail, it was just
3 really hard to move the initiative forward because you need
4 to have agreement with everybody in the leadership team,
5 and then you get sent back to the drawing board, and we
6 spent so much time it seemed like just fighting fight after
7 fight after fight.
8 And whoever started it, the back and forth
9 between the liaison's report and now we have to write the
10 response to this liaison's report and back and forth and so
11 on and so forth just occupied so much time that between
12 writing reports and responses to reports and this meeting
13 and that meeting over how we were going to respond to this
14 and how we were going to respond to that and writing up
15 this deal that gets rejected and this deal that gets
16 rejected and so on and so forth, it just didn't seem
17 like -- we finally did meet the deadlines on the
18 distribution of system of support, and that video has
19 often -- has been paraded around says we met the deadline
20 of the distribution on the system of support.
21 But it was rejected by the state board as not
22 meeting their requirements, and I don't know that to this
23 day that we still have an approval from the state board of
24 the legislature on the system of support.
25 Q. During Superintendent Hill's administration of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 921
1 the Department, what was your view of her predecessor
2 Superintendent McBride?
3 A. I would say fairly negative, fairly hostile. I
4 can remember having a conversation with him one time in the
5 lobby of the Hathaway Building, and she walked in and she
6 calls me later on cell phone to say, "I see you were
7 talking to Dr. McBride," and just kind of pointing out that
8 she'd seen me talking to him.
9 Q. Did she explain why that was problematic for her,
10 if it was?
11 A. Well, again, I got the impression that she didn't
12 want me talking to Dr. McBride. However, I don't know that
13 I was ever exactly told you will not talk to him.
14 Q. Do you know -- the committee probably knows this,
15 but what is Dr. McBride's current position?
16 A. He's, I believe, the -- whatever they call it,
17 director of the Office of Vital Records on the first floor
18 of the Hathaway Building. So, yeah, I've had plenty of
19 conversations with Dr. McBride over the years, you know,
20 over everything from lunch to his kids to Sandy to
21 everything else, but usually they take place in the
22 bathroom.
23 Q. I'm flabbergasted. What was Superintendent
24 Hill's view about the director of Workforce Services, Joan
25 Evans?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 922
1 A. On December 12th at a Joint Appropriations
2 Committee -- December 12, 2012 at a Joint Appropriations
3 Committee meeting, it was in some passing time, a break or
4 whatever, I had a conversation with Joan Evans, and I was
5 almost immediately called off to the side by Superintendent
6 Hill to say that, you know, we don't trust her and that
7 she's a supporter of Freudenthal, and she didn't even know
8 that I knew Joan Evans, and basically she didn't approve of
9 me talking to Joan Evans.
10 Q. And your conversations with Joan Evans I hope
11 didn't occur in the bathroom.
12 A. I have not had conversations with Joan Evans in
13 the bathroom, no.
14 Q. Thank you. You've been here through some of the
15 prior witnesses. There's a list of questions that I'm
16 asked to pose to you that have been provided by the
17 superintendent.
18 First, are you familiar with the penalties for
19 perjury and that you are subject to those penalties should
20 you provide false testimony?
21 A. I am.
22 Q. Did you speak with anyone prior to today about
23 your testimony before this committee, including Mr. Jarosh,
24 Mr. Salzburg, or representatives of their firms, members of
25 the legislature or other staff or employees of the State,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 923
1 such as the governor's office or the Wyoming Department of
2 Education regarding these proceedings today or Senate File
3 104?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And who did you speak with?
6 A. I visited with you. I visited with WDE
7 employees.
8 Q. Okay. Let's take me first. Do you recall when
9 you visited with me?
10 A. I believe initially, I don't remember, there was
11 a phone call regarding an issue that I passed on to
12 somebody else and said I didn't know anything about. Then
13 I believe the next conversation, at least -- obviously I
14 must have been called in advance, but I believe the actual
15 visit to your office was December 13th and then again
16 sometime within the last couple weeks to kind of review
17 what we were going to go over here.
18 Q. And can you tell us the details of our
19 conversation?
20 A. Basically this is what you told in the MacPherson
21 report and is there anything you would like to add? You
22 know, it was basically validating or verifying what was in
23 the MacPherson report.
24 Q. How long did the conversations take?
25 A. Probably between an hour and two hours.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 924
1 Q. Did the attorneys or their representatives
2 instruct you that your testimony must be truthful and, if
3 based on conjecture, speculation or opinion, must be stated
4 as such?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
7 relating to your testimony?
8 A. None that I haven't provided.
9 Q. Okay. The follow-up that I'm asked to pose to
10 you: If not, what was your standard for deciding what to
11 provide? I have trouble understanding that.
12 A. Relevance.
13 Q. Okay. Do statements attributed to you in the
14 MacPherson report accurately reflect your testimony to that
15 committee?
16 A. For the most part, yes.
17 Q. That is sort of a middle answer.
18 A. There's a few points that I guess that I -- I
19 think there's a few minor inconsistencies that I would -- a
20 lot of that in that was kind of my opinion. You need to
21 look at this, you need to look at that. You know, it was
22 kind of conjecture on my part that I wasn't a hundred
23 percent sure, so I would say that my opinions were my
24 opinions. I don't know that I would guarantee that
25 they're, you know, truth -- you know.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 925
1 Q. Well, let me see if I can't ferret this out a
2 little bit. You've testified here today that you don't
3 recall that you made the statement that in this meeting
4 after the plaque that was given to Superintendent Hill
5 having said that the prayer was to save us from the great
6 transgressors, the legislature?
7 A. Right, but if you look at the MacPherson report,
8 it doesn't say that. It doesn't say that I said that.
9 That's why I'm saying I think those are her words, not
10 mine.
11 Q. Okay. So here is the question. Let me get to
12 the end of this. If you were able to review your -- the
13 summary of your testimony to the MacPherson committee and
14 could you -- would you be able to point out anything that
15 you think was improperly reported?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And could you provide an affidavit that would
18 make corrections to those misstatements?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. SALZBURG: All right. Unless I missed
21 something, I don't see anything that's to be directed to
22 Mr. Pannell in the other questions. Is that accurate?
23 Thank you.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. Committee,
25 it's time for your questions. Keep in mind, I told some of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 926
1 you that we would work through lunch. The court reporter
2 informs me that that's impossible, and understandably so
3 given the size of the task that we're asking of him.
4 But we will be done by 5 p.m. today. So with
5 that admonition, do you all have any questions? I want to
6 make sure you get them fully and fairly but not
7 redundantly.
8 Representative Zwonitzer.
9 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thanks,
10 Mr. Chairman.
11 FURTHEREXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
12 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Mr. Pannell, you
13 are aware of who Gail Eisenhauer and Kim Harper are?
14 A. Yes, I am.
15 Q. They both testified before us and both expressed
16 that they had in some way challenged Superintendent Hill or
17 her leadership style and stood up for themselves at some
18 point. Do you feel either of them received repercussions
19 for not being loyal or for expressing concerns?
20 A. I have no idea on Kim Harper. To some extent I
21 guess Gail was my predecessor in my position. I saw a lot
22 of work that she'd done, written ideas, one thing or
23 another that seemed like quality work to me.
24 So I don't know whether the move of -- it seemed
25 to me that she was sort of moved to the basement and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 927
1 marginalized, if you will -- not moved to the basement,
2 moved to the first floor, and sort of marginalized to an
3 extent, but that might be my perception rather than
4 reality.
5 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Otherquestions,
6 committee?
7 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Mr. Pannell, just as in
8 executive section, Superintendent Hill has provided the
9 committee a list of questions that she would like asked.
10 Were you given great latitude to discuss and
11 develop an outline with the Wyoming Accountability and
12 Education Act?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was every element of the act clear and succinct?
15 A. In Section F, the support section, it's fairly
16 clear.
17 Q. In fact, did not your analysis reveal
18 considerable inconsistency in the law?
19 A. My analysis of the entire law did, but the
20 Section F for which I am completely responsible is again
21 fairly understandable.
22 Q. Did you develop an overview of the report
23 identifying those areas?
24 A. Of the entire accountability bill, yeah.
25 Q. Do you also have a considerable role in
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 928
1 developing the statewide system of support pursuant to the
2 Wyoming Accountability and Education Act during Mrs. Hill's
3 tenure at WDE?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you aware of the difficulties resulting from
6 the uncertainty in the Wyoming Accountability and Education
7 Act resulting in substantial changes for the WDE as they
8 worked on a pilot model for accountability during
9 Mrs. Hill's tenure?
10 A. Well, again, there was some division of labor in
11 this, and the part of it that I was responsible for wasn't
12 particularly difficult for me to understand.
13 Q. Did you replace Gail Eisenhauer when you took
14 your current position?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mrs. Eisenhauer testified about federal law
17 concerning work at Fremont 38. Does Chapter 6 rules for
18 accreditation require that targeted assistance be provided
19 to a school that has failed to meet adequate yearly
20 progress when requested by the district to the extent of
21 WDE capacity and resources?
22 A. I don't know that it requires it to the extent of
23 WDE capacity and resources.
24 Q. Why did you want your department to learn WYR?
25 A. I wanted to be part of the agency initiatives.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 929
1 Q. Did you witness a substantial effort on behalf of
2 WDE to comply with the requirements and time deadlines
3 specified by the Wyoming Accountability and Education Act?
4 A. Could you repeat the question, please.
5 Q. Did you witness a substantial effort on behalf of
6 the WDE to comply with the requirements and time deadlines
7 specified in the Wyoming Accountability and Education Act?
8 A. I witnessed a substantial amount of effort on the
9 part of the WDE. As far as the compliance with deadlines
10 and so on and so forth, there was only one deadline that I
11 was required to meet, and I met it.
12 Q. Do you believe Wyoming is a low-performing state
13 in education?
14 A. I believe they're slightly above average.
15 Q. Do you agree that Superintendent Hill worked hard
16 to present a fair message to the public regarding
17 education, that we are doing well but can be better?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Based upon that, wouldn't it be true to say
20 Mrs. Hill and her staff made a very good effort to fulfill
21 legislative mandates about implementing accountability?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did -- isn't it -- what is your understanding of
24 the purpose of the probationary period that the State of
25 Wyoming has adopted?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 930
1 A. So that you can terminate an employee within the
2 first year without cause.
3 Q. AdvancEd is an independent contractor; is that
4 correct?
5 A. They're a regional accreditation organization and
6 as such, sort of have a monopoly on the accreditation
7 business.
8 Q. As a state employee, do you believe it
9 appropriate that more than half of your work should be done
10 to benefit an independent contractor?
11 A. Well, I'm not agreeing with they're an
12 independent contractor.
13 Q. Are you satisfied that the State should become
14 fully dependent upon an independent contractor for the
15 essential element of a support system?
16 A. Can you repeat that question?
17 Q. Are you satisfied that the State should become
18 fully dependent upon an independent contractor for the
19 essential element of a support system?
20 A. Well, I don't know that accreditation -- there's
21 a statutory requirement that accreditation -- support be
22 administered as a part of accreditation, but I'm not sure
23 that that necessarily means that we are being solely
24 dependent upon accreditation. So I'm not sure how to
25 answer that.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 931
1 Q. Is this the same AdvancEd -- is this the same
2 AdvancEd whose contract was doubled approximately 750,000
3 to 1.45 million right before Superintendent Hill came into
4 office?
5 A. It is AdvancEd. As far as the -- I wasn't
6 responsible for the AdvancEd contract prior to the time
7 that Superintendent Hill came into office.
8 Q. Were you involved in the meeting when this
9 original contract was negotiated back to its original
10 amount?
11 A. Yes. Well, again, I was involved in the contract
12 negotiation meeting in May of 2012. As far as -- and yes,
13 I've seen some of those contracts from before, but as far
14 as the minute details of it, I'm not aware of.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: There are some questions
16 that Superintendent Hill has, 12, 13 and 14 on your e-mail,
17 that talk much about the employee that we discussed in
18 executive session. We can go back into executive session,
19 but my belief is those have all been asked and answered.
20 Are there two people who would like us to go back into
21 executive session?
22 Seeing none, thank you, Mr. Pannell, for spending
23 a lot of yesterday and a good chunk of your morning with us
24 today.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 932
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We appreciate your
2 testimony and I know it's not easy. And thank you very
3 much for taking your time and helping us out here.
4 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, call your next
6 witness. And Mr. -- any objections to the committee
7 releasing Mr. Pannell from the subpoena?
8 You're released, sir.
9 MR. SALZBURG: We'll call Teri Wigert.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Wigert, did you get a
11 copy of the advisement with your subpoena?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you read it?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you understand it?
16 THE WITNESS: I do.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
18 THE WITNESS: No, I do not.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you rise and raise
20 your right hand, please.
21 (Witness sworn.)
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel.
23 TERILYNNWIGERT,
24 called for examination by the Select Investigative
25 Committee, being first duly sworn, on her oath testified as
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 933
1 follows:
2 EXAMINATION
3 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Would you state your full
4 name, please.
5 A. Teri Lynn Wigert.
6 Q. And would you spell your last name for the court
7 reporter, please.
8 A. Yes, W-i-g-e-r-t.
9 Q. Miss Wigert, how are you currently employed?
10 A. I'm employed at the Wyoming Department of
11 Education.
12 Q. In what capacity?
13 A. I'm a division administrator over the division
14 Support Systems and Resources.
15 Q. I believe that you've been present during some of
16 the prior testimony, and I just want to make sure that you
17 have heard the guidelines that we have been giving to
18 witnesses prior to their testimony. Have you heard those?
19 A. Yes, I have.
20 Q. And do you recall them now?
21 A. In the most part, yes.
22 Q. Okay. What does the Support System and Resources
23 division consist of?
24 A. The division for which I have oversight is five
25 programs, all of them relatively unrelated to the other.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 934
1 One is on-line distance education. The second is Career
2 Technical Education. The third is school safety and
3 security. The fourth is pupil transportation. And the
4 fifth is all of the U.S. Department of Agriculture's
5 nutrition programs.
6 Q. Can you summarize your employment history at the
7 Department for us, please?
8 A. Yes, I can. I was hired in 1996 under the Judy
9 Catchpole administration and also served then under
10 Dr. Trent Blankenship, then under Dr. Jim McBride, and then
11 Superintendent Cindy Hill and currently under Director Rich
12 Crandall.
13 Q. And when you began your employment in 1996 under
14 Superintendent Catchpole, what was the position that you
15 held?
16 A. I was hired as an education consultant.
17 Q. And how long have you held the position of the
18 division administrator?
19 A. I believe I've been a division administrator
20 almost 12 years.
21 Q. Can you summarize your education and employment
22 history prior to coming to work for the Wyoming Department
23 of Education?
24 A. Yes. I'm a graduate from the University of
25 Nebraska with a Bachelor of Science and endorsement in K-12
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 935
1 education. I taught high school for approximately six
2 years in Nebraska and in Wyoming, after which I worked at a
3 newspaper in sales and ultimately then as an administrator
4 for the American Red Cross before coming to the Department
5 of Education.
6 Q. Are you certified as a teacher in either Nebraska
7 or Wyoming?
8 A. Yes. Iwas.
9 Q. Not currently?
10 A. I am not currently certified.
11 Q. Where does a division administrator fit -- I
12 guess I should give you a time context. Let's talk about
13 under Dr. McBride. Where would a division administrator
14 fit in the organizational chart?
15 A. Under the McBride administration, the division
16 administrator would have been at the very top of the
17 organization reporting to the deputy who worked at the
18 pleasure of the elected official, Dr. McBride.
19 Q. And did that change -- talking about the position
20 on the org chart of division administrator, did that change
21 when Superintendent Hill took office?
22 A. Yes, it did somewhat. I still had all of the
23 same responsibilities as a division administrator and all
24 of the functions that I was to perform, but above me there
25 were several instructional leaders, special programs,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 936
1 employee and maybe some others that I don't recall right
2 now, but there were several other higher level positions
3 above division administrator.
4 Q. Ms. Wigert, when the governor appointed an
5 inquiry team to investigate allegations concerning
6 Superintendent Hill and her administration, did you provide
7 information to that inquiry team?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Part of the information that you provided was a
10 document that, as I understand it, is just a series of
11 notes that you titled "Most Egregious Incidents"; is that
12 correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Did you keep notes of what occurred at the
15 workplace when you worked for Superintendent Catchpole?
16 A. No, I did not.
17 Q. Did you keep notes during your tenure with the
18 Blankenship administration?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. How about with the McBride administration?
21 A. No, I did not.
22 Q. So can you tell the committee why it was that you
23 began keeping those notes under the Hill administration?
24 A. Yes. I first met the newly elected
25 superintendent the first part of December, December 10th,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 937
1 in fact, and that first meeting with her she was
2 accompanied by Kevin Lewis, and it was at that meeting that
3 I experienced what I thought was a harassing situation, and
4 I was unnerved by it. And I went home and journaled and
5 documented what happened.
6 Q. Tell us about the unnerving situation that
7 occurred on the 10th of December, 2010.
8 A. That meeting was orchestrated by me at the
9 suggestion of the existing administration, who had
10 encouraged us to meet and visit with the new superintendent
11 to help her get acclimated and transition into her new
12 role. And I had actively asked to have a meeting with her
13 to discuss with her all what we had put together in a
14 document for transition purposes, and my document was
15 called "Top Ten Hot Topics," and I wanted to share those
16 with her.
17 She had agreed, and she was on her way down to my
18 office to meet with me. That was the day we shook hands, I
19 introduced myself, and we visited about those hot ten
20 topics.
21 However, before the meeting began she took a
22 phone call in the hallway. Kevin Lewis came into my office
23 and sat down and said, "My wife says that I'm nosey, but
24 how old are you?" And I was astonished by the question and
25 felt that it was inappropriate, knew that it was not a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 938
1 question that should be asked among employees, and I said,
2 "I'm perpetually 43. I guess I'll always be 43." And he
3 said, "Well, if you're not going to tell me, I have ways of
4 finding that out."
5 That was the end of that conversation string with
6 him, but Cindy Hill did come in and we went over then the
7 ten hot topics that I had prepared for that meeting.
8 At the end of that day, in order to process that,
9 I went home and wrote notes about it.
10 Q. Were these notes kept on a home computer?
11 A. Yes, they were.
12 Q. Were the notes that you've put into your most
13 egregious incidents document made relatively
14 contemporaneously with the events they describe?
15 A. Yes, they were.
16 Q. Are the descriptions that are in the most
17 egregious incidents document true and accurate, to the best
18 of your knowledge and belief?
19 A. Yes. They are an indication of what I believe
20 happened in those circumstances.
21 Q. I would like to direct your attention to the
22 retirement of Leeds Pickering in November of 2010. What
23 was Mr. Pickering's position in the Department?
24 A. Mr. Pickering was the Health Safety and Nutrition
25 Division administrator.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 939
1 Q. When -- did Mr. Pickering decide toward the end
2 of the McBride administration to retire?
3 A. Yes. Mr. Pickering had been on record for some
4 time that his retirement was imminent. We all knew the
5 date, and it had been anticipated in the Department of
6 Education.
7 Q. Did Mr. McBride fill the position when
8 Mr. Pickering did retire?
9 A. Dr. McBride elected to appoint an interim Health
10 Safety and Nutrition director, recognizing that
11 Mr. Pickering's retirement was the 1st of November, and it
12 coincided very closely with the election of the new
13 superintendent. Regardless of who that was to be, the
14 belief was that an interim director would be in that
15 position allowing the newly elected superintendent the
16 opportunity to fulfill that position -- or fill that
17 position with their own selected applicant.
18 Q. So Mr. Pickering's position was filled with an
19 interim appointment?
20 A. That'scorrect.
21 Q. And who was the interim appointee?
22 A. ThatpersonwasTomMartin.
23 Q. Was Tom Martin, in your opinion, qualified to
24 take on the duties of the administrator of the Health
25 Safety and Nutrition Division?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 940
1 A. I believe he was exceptional and qualified.
2 Q. Do you know what his background was?
3 A. Yes, I did. I had hired Tom Martin, and he was
4 working in my division. He was a former superintendent in
5 the state of Wyoming. He had been a superintendent in I
6 believe a couple of districts in Fremont County, and he was
7 a lifelong educator who started out in the classroom,
8 worked up through being a principal and ultimately a
9 superintendent.
10 He would moved to Cheyenne, come to work at the
11 Department of Education. So he had a full spectrum of
12 information and experience about education.
13 Q. Did he take the interim position on or about the
14 1st of November of 2010?
15 A. I believe that was the timeline, yes.
16 Q. Okay. So between him taking the interim position
17 and the election of the new superintendent was
18 approximately two months?
19 A. Would you ask that question again, please?
20 Q. Sure. He held the position of interim
21 administrator for approximately two months prior to
22 Superintendent Hill taking office?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. And how did he perform during that time as the
25 interim administrator?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 941
1 A. He performed enthusiastically. It was a role he
2 had really wanted, and he was very well accepted among
3 that -- that division. And I was pleased that he was
4 having the opportunity to move vertically in their
5 organization.
6 Q. What happened to Mr. Martin in the interim
7 administrator's position when Superintendent Hill took
8 office?
9 A. He at some point was relegated back to the
10 supervisory position that he had held in my division, and I
11 welcomed him back into that position.
12 Q. What happened to the position that was previously
13 held by Leeds Pickering and was held by Mr. Martin on an
14 interim basis?
15 A. That position was repurposed and it was moved, I
16 believe -- I'm not certain about this. I thought it was
17 moved into the Information Management Division, but I could
18 be wrong. I know that it was not retained as a Health
19 Safety and Nutrition Division administrator.
20 Q. Can you tell us what a B-11 is?
21 A. A B-11 actually is a citation in Wyoming statute.
22 It's B and Romanette II of a specific statute that I can't
23 quote right now, but the B-11 refers to the process that
24 agencies must go through to reclassify positions and to
25 repurpose for purposes other than how they were
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 942
1 legislatively mandated.
2 Q. So did you see a B-11 form for the repurposing of
3 the position that was vacated by Leeds Pickering?
4 A. No, I did not.
5 Q. So if the position was repurposed, we have a
6 division without an administrator, correct?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. So what happened to the Health Safety and
9 Nutrition Division?
10 A. Well, interestingly, I was approached by Roger
11 Clark, who was my direct report, and he had told -- he did
12 tell me that the superintendent was going to ask me to step
13 up and assume the responsibilities for that division.
14 Q. This is just so that I don't get confused
15 primarily. What was the title of your division prior to
16 the incorporation of I'm going to call it HSN?
17 A. The division that I was responsible for at that
18 time was Innovative Connections and Support.
19 Q. And what did the Innovative Connections and
20 Support Division do?
21 A. It was responsible for on-line distance
22 education, Career Technical Education and the Wyoming
23 Equality Network, known as the WEN.
24 Q. Did you have any responsibility about or around
25 Internet connectivity above the schools?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 943
1 A. Yes. I was responsible for that.
2 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to an
3 all-agency meeting that was held shortly after
4 Superintendent Hill took office. And first I want to sort
5 of clarify something. In your notes you list the date of
6 that meeting as January 6, 2011, correct?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. I will tell you that the meeting is recorded as
9 available for review on the WEN website, and there the date
10 of that meeting appears to be January 5th, one day earlier.
11 Regardless -- well, first of all, do you know which of
12 those two dates is accurate?
13 A. Yes, Mr. Salzburg, you apprised me of that, and I
14 think that was an error in my own notation. It was the one
15 and only note for that week, and I think I did say in my
16 notes that was two days after inauguration day.
17 Q. Do you know when inauguration day was?
18 A. I believe that was January 3rd.
19 Q. In any event, whether it was the 5th or the 6th,
20 did you attend that meeting?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Where did it occur?
23 A. It occurred in the Herschler Building in the
24 large inner meeting room known as B63.
25 Q. That's a large meeting room that is in the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 944
1 basement, as I recall.
2 A. Yes,itis.
3 Q. Was the meeting attended by all of the
4 departmental employees?
5 A. I would venture that nearly all Wyoming
6 Department of Education staff were there that day.
7 Q. Okay. What happened at the meeting?
8 A. It was a meeting of introduction, and the
9 superintendent covered several topics that day. She had
10 with her a couple of staff members that she had identified
11 as being on her transition team.
12 Q. Andwhowerethey?
13 A. The couple people that I remember specifically
14 were Sheryl Lain and Kevin Lewis.
15 Q. Do you recall if Roger Clark was present?
16 A. Idonotrecallthat.
17 Q. Was there an announcement made at that meeting
18 regarding the future of the Wyoming office of the
19 department -- I'm sorry, the Laramie office of the
20 Department of Education?
21 A. Yes. That was one of the major topics of
22 conversation at that meeting. Superintendent Hill
23 announced that the Laramie office would be closing, and
24 then there was some conversation that ensued between her
25 and the then director of assessment at -- in Laramie.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 945
1 Q. And who was the then director of assessment in
2 Laramie?
3 A. Dr. Alan Moore.
4 Q. Was assessment the only division that was housed
5 in the Laramie office?
6 A. No, I believe the Laramie office also included
7 the Standards and Accreditation Division.
8 Q. Do you recall who was the administrator of the
9 standards division?
10 A. Yes. Kay Post.
11 Q. What was the reaction of the employees of the
12 Laramie office to that announcement?
13 A. There was a lot of shock and awe perhaps among
14 those employees. It was announced without any previous
15 notice about that kind of action, and I'd say the people
16 sitting around me were -- who were working in Laramie were
17 pretty unnerved by this announcement.
18 Q. To your knowledge, was there anyone outside of
19 the superintendent's leadership team who were aware of the
20 plan to close the Laramie office?
21 A. Yes, Dr. Alan Moore had been apprised the evening
22 before that the office was going to be closed.
23 Q. And how did you know that?
24 A. That conversation took place vocally at this all
25 staff meeting between Superintendent Hill and Dr. Moore.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 946
1 Q. Was Superintendent Hill -- or what was
2 Superintendent Hill's demeanor toward Dr. Moore with
3 respect to the announcement?
4 A. I would describe it as accusatory. She stated
5 that "You had been apprised the evening before at around
6 four o'clock, and you could have notified your employees
7 that this office was going to be closed." And Dr. Moore
8 responded by saying, "I believe it was closer to 4:30," and
9 there was a little I would call it quibbling between the
10 two of them about whether or not that had been an adequate
11 amount of time for him to have given his employees notice
12 that the office was going to be closing.
13 Q. Let's talk about other things that were discussed
14 at the meeting. Do you recall an announcement by
15 Superintendent Hill that she intended that the walls would
16 come down?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. And what did that mean to you?
19 A. Well, it was explained, so I didn't have to infer
20 what it would meant -- what it would mean. She said that
21 walls were going to be removed between the existing offices
22 on the second floor of the Hathaway Building, and where in
23 the largest part employees had their own offices, employees
24 would now be grouped in groups of three, in some instances
25 four, in some instances it turned out five people in
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 947
1 offices, and that those walls would be removed to increase
2 communication and collaboration among the staff.
3 Q. Did Superintendent Hill comment regarding her
4 transition team?
5 A. She did make mention of a transition team. I
6 recall her saying that she had a transition team of
7 approximately ten people, most of whom would never be
8 illuminated.
9 Q. What did that mean to you?
10 A. That meant to me that she wasn't going to
11 identify who those people were.
12 Q. Was there any explanation offered by the
13 superintendent regarding why her transition team weren't
14 going to be identified?
15 A. I don't recall that there was any explanation for
16 that.
17 Q. So what was your reaction to the comment that
18 there was a transition team of ten, most of whom would not
19 be illuminated?
20 A. I found it perplexing really that she wouldn't
21 describe who she was seeking input from and guiding her in
22 her newly elected position. I thought it would have been
23 something she would have wanted to make transparent and
24 give those people credit and allow the employees that she
25 was going to be assuming oversight of opportunity to know
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 948
1 who these people were.
2 Q. Do you recall that Superintendent Hill announced
3 that she wanted the employees to answer three questions for
4 her?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Did you write those questions down in your notes?
7 A. I did, to the best of my recollection.
8 Q. I think I mentioned to you that I've actually
9 gone out and watched the WEN video. Have you been able to
10 go out and look at the WEN video since the time of the
11 video being made?
12 A. No, I have not.
13 Q. And I've told you that there appears to be some
14 discrepancy between the way you recall it and what is
15 actually shown on the video, correct?
16 A. Yes, you have.
17 Q. The questions -- and I think these are accurate
18 quotes from the video -- were: Can you commit to every
19 student's learning in Wyoming? Are you willing to listen
20 to every person who approaches you? And are you willing to
21 honor the new superintendent's leadership? Do you have any
22 disagreement that those are accurate quotes with respect to
23 the three questions?
24 A. Well, those were not how I heard them or as I was
25 note taking at that time. So I believed the questions were
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 949
1 more to the point of what do you do in your roles that
2 impact students? When was the last time you were in a
3 school? And the final question was, will you honor me as
4 your superintendent?
5 Q. Okay. So the third question at least is,
6 although paraphrased, is essentially the same, right?
7 A. The third one is the one that's most similar to
8 the three questions as you had read them to me.
9 Q. Okay. So we've identified an error of the date
10 and identified what appears to be an error in how you
11 quoted the questions. To what do you attribute those
12 errors, if they are errors?
13 A. Either my inaccuracy in taking notes or perhaps
14 more conversation that occurred during that meeting. So I
15 believe those two questions that I -- that I reported may
16 have been cited that way elsewhere in the meeting. And I
17 think when I took those to my home computer, it was either
18 just a typographical error when I typed January 6th or
19 maybe I just missed it entirely when I was --
20 Q. Allright.
21 A. When I was -- actually when I was trying to
22 process what had happened I jotted January 6th. So I just
23 believe it was an error.
24 Q. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to a
25 meeting that occurred on January 24th of 2010 or '11
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 950
1 according to your notes. Do you recall that meeting?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. What was the purpose of that meeting?
4 A. The purpose of the meeting was to visit with the
5 new superintendent and the team that she had brought in and
6 were in place at that time and to meet with my division as
7 she was reportedly meeting with all divisions and to answer
8 those three questions that I've articulated earlier.
9 And that meeting was scheduled for January 24th,
10 and it took place on that day.
11 Q. So what happened at the meeting?
12 A. It was at that meeting that I had acquired this
13 new division that had been under my -- under my oversight
14 then for about ten days, I believe, and this included then
15 these nutrition programs, pupil transportation and school
16 safety and security people, as well as my existing staff
17 that I had been overseeing.
18 It was a pretty large group of staff, and it was
19 at that meeting that we were prepared to answer those three
20 questions. What are we doing to impact students? Each of
21 the staff were able to think through that and have an
22 answer, a connect the dots, if you will, between what they
23 did and how they were able to impact students. They also
24 were prepared to answer when were they last in school and
25 to also talk about how they would honor the new
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 951
1 superintendent.
2 Q. What was your understanding of what that question
3 means, how you honor the new superintendent or do you
4 commit to honor the leadership of the new superintendent,
5 whatever it was, what does that mean?
6 A. To me that means do you honor that I have been
7 elected and that I have this elevated position as
8 recognized by the State of Wyoming and its voters, and do
9 you understand that I am taking over and I have the
10 leadership now of the Department of Education.
11 Q. So at the meeting did your staffers begin to
12 answer these questions?
13 A. Yes, they did. And it was in some sort of random
14 way, I don't recall whether we went round robin on each
15 question or whether each person attempted to answer all
16 three questions when they spoke, but it was conversational
17 among the staff and the superintendent and the staff
18 interacting with her.
19 Q. And how did you think the meeting went, generally
20 speaking?
21 A. I thought it was quite informational because I at
22 the same time was learning some of the responsibilities and
23 the experiences and the views of this new Health Safety and
24 Nutrition team, and the existing team was also well
25 postured to answer those questions. And I thought it was
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 952
1 really quite enlightening both for me and I believe it
2 probably was for the new superintendent.
3 Q. Did you express your pleasure to the
4 superintendent with respect to how the meeting had gone?
5 A. More or less. I don't know that I expressed
6 pleasure, but I had the opportunity that afternoon -- the
7 meeting had occurred in the morning by the way -- to see
8 her in the front office, and I asked her, "How did you
9 think our meeting went this morning?" Whereupon she
10 answered that she didn't think it had really gone all that
11 well because among my staff were those who had not made eye
12 contact with her.
13 Q. Anything else?
14 A. Yes, in sort of segueing between introducing
15 various staff and sort of being the facilitator of the
16 meeting, I had mentioned that we all understood that the
17 walls were coming down and we were going to be tightening
18 up our work spaces and how we would be working in the
19 future in these collaborative, more communicative
20 environments, and she addressed that with me.
21 Q. What did she say?
22 A. She said that she noticed I had used the word
23 "tighten" not once but two times and that we were not
24 tightening anything, but that we were trying to create
25 greater collaboration and communication, which I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 953
1 acknowledged and said yes, I understood and I was on board
2 with that and that we would be -- be supporting that.
3 Q. We talked a bit about Tom Martin earlier. Can
4 you tell the committee what happened to Tom Martin?
5 A. Yes, on a day, according to the notes that I
6 prepared for the MacPherson report, it was on March 7th
7 that Tom Martin and I were having what I call one-on-one
8 meetings. I met with each of my supervisors once a month
9 individually, and he and I were in the process of having
10 one of those monthly meetings when my administrative
11 assistant knocked on the door and said that "Superintendent
12 Hill would like to see both of you" and we were to come
13 down to the big office, which was a space that -- between
14 the front office and mine where the Hill administration had
15 sort of set up headquarters as they were building their
16 transition team. And I don't know that anybody
17 specifically was officing in that space, but I knew what
18 the big office meant. It had a big round table in it.
19 Q. And so did you go to the big office?
20 A. Yes. Tom Martin and I went down.
21 Q. And what happened there?
22 A. In the office was the superintendent and her
23 public information officer, Jerry Zellars. They closed the
24 door and the meeting was begun by Jerry Zellars.
25 Q. And what did Mr. Zellars have to say?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 954
1 A. The essence of the meeting was that on the
2 previous day Tom Martin and Chuck Mitchell were having
3 lunch together in another one of our work areas in the
4 department, and during that lunch period Jerry Zellars had
5 come in or maybe he was eating lunch at the same time, I
6 don't recall, and I wasn't present at this lunch meeting.
7 The conversation of innovation in education was brought up,
8 and in that conversation apparently Tom Martin had asked
9 how will the superintendent innovate, it will be
10 interesting to know how she will accomplish that. Gee, I
11 think innovation in education is really hard. Those are
12 the kinds of things that I've always tried to do, and there
13 was conversations about that phrase.
14 Q. And so why does that conversation or that phrase,
15 if it was said that way, merit a meeting in the big office?
16 A. Well, according to Jerry Zellars' understanding
17 of the meeting, Tom Martin was not supportive of the
18 superintendent if that's what she, in fact, was trying to
19 do. That had been his view of Tom Martin's comments during
20 that lunch meeting.
21 Q. Was Tom Martin present when Mr. Zellars described
22 the conversation?
23 A. Yes, Tom and I and Jerry Zellars and the
24 superintendent were all in there as he redescribed what he
25 had heard the previous day.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 955
1 Q. So did Tom Martin have an opportunity to clarify
2 what the comment was or what he meant by the comment?
3 A. Yes. As I recall, he kind of sat forward and
4 thought this is a continuance of the conversation we were
5 having yesterday, and he was nodding his head, and it was
6 my opinion that Tom Martin thought we were getting ready to
7 talk about new or innovative ways for education, and I
8 believe he thought we were in there to continue that
9 conversation.
10 Q. Is that what occurred?
11 A. Almost immediately that's not what was occurring.
12 It was a meeting more of reprimand around Tom Martin.
13 Q. How long did the meeting last?
14 A. I believe it lasted about 70 minutes.
15 Q. Seven zero?
16 A. 70 minutes, yes.
17 Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Martin
18 following the meeting regarding how he felt as a result of
19 it?
20 A. Only marginally. As we left the office and
21 walked down the hall, he was deflated and I think also just
22 demeaned by the whole unfolding of the perceptions around
23 his words and his thoughts around innovation in education.
24 Q. Now, this was a conversation that was held
25 between Tom Martin and Mr. Mitchell I think you described
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 956
1 it.
2 A. Yes. That's who was having lunch together on the
3 previous day.
4 Q. Was any suggestion made that Mr. Mitchell join
5 the meeting and offer his view of what the discussion
6 concerned?
7 A. Yes. Throughout that 70 minutes, there was
8 probably equal conversation among the four of us, and I was
9 trying to support what I believed Tom Martin probably was
10 thinking because I knew him well. I knew he was an
11 innovator. I knew he liked change. So I was expressing
12 those kinds of things.
13 Jerry Zellars was differing with that view.
14 Cindy had been apprised by Jerry Zellars. She expressed
15 she had great confidence and knew Jerry was loyal to her,
16 and she leaned forward and told Tom Martin, "I don't trust
17 you." And so at one point in trying to help mediate this
18 to ensure this new administration would understand that
19 both Tom Martin and I were interested in innovation in
20 education, that perhaps we should also visit with Chuck
21 Mitchell. He may have misunderstood Tom's comments and may
22 have been able to lend some information or, if nothing
23 else, we need to correct Chuck Mitchell's impressions
24 around innovation in education.
25 Q. What was the upshot of the meeting?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 957
1 A. The outcome of the meeting was that it was past
2 noon. Tom Martin and I walked down the hall. He said, "I
3 have to leave." I said, "Yes, I do think you should leave
4 the building. You and I can debrief about this a little
5 later, but I don't think we should do it right now. We're
6 both very emotionally spent, and if you feel like you need
7 to take some time off, you're -- you certainly have my
8 permission to do that." And he said, "I'll think about
9 that for a minute." And we walked to our respective
10 offices, but he was back in mine in just a few minutes and
11 he brought a leave slip and said, "Actually I'd like to
12 take the rest of the afternoon as you've suggested." And I
13 said, "I will talk to you tomorrow morning." And the
14 outcome was that when he returned the next morning, he
15 brought a letter of resignation, or excuse me, a letter of
16 retirement.
17 Q. When was his retirement to become effective?
18 A. He wrote it in the letter, and I believe it was
19 May 31st.
20 Q. What was the impact of the loss of Mr. Martin on
21 your operation?
22 A. I thought it was significant. He was a dedicated
23 employee, someone that I relied upon a great deal, and he
24 was also someone who always said pick me whenever there
25 were committees and opportunities in the Department of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 958
1 Education. So I felt it was going to be a loss to my
2 Career Technical Education team over which he was the
3 supervisor, and I also thought it was going to be a loss
4 for the Department of Education.
5 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to a meeting
6 with federal nutrition employees. Do you recall that
7 meeting?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. When did that occur?
10 A. That meeting occurred on March 31st of 2011.
11 Q. And who were the federal employees that were at
12 the meeting?
13 A. The two employees from the regional office of the
14 United States Department of Agriculture in Denver were
15 Darlene Sanchez and Darlene Barnes.
16 Q. Did you call them the two Darlenes?
17 A. The supervisor who was not working for me, Tamara
18 Jackson, did refer to them that way, and they sort of
19 enjoyed that moniker, and so, yes, I called them that as
20 well.
21 Q. What was the purpose of the meeting?
22 A. They had initiated the meeting saying that it has
23 been their practice in their region anytime there's a
24 change in leadership in the states that they oversee that
25 they try to make state visits, and they had initiated a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 959
1 meeting with the new superintendent.
2 Q. What was discussed at the meeting?
3 A. Most notably the Healthy, Hunger-Free Kids Act
4 had just passed in Congress -- I think it was sometime in
5 2010. I don't recall the time frame in 2010 -- which was a
6 very aggressive change in the school nutrition programs,
7 and they wanted to discuss that with the superintendent.
8 Q. What did the new statute require in terms of the
9 State's compliance?
10 A. Overwhelmingly many more changes that I would not
11 be able to articulate except the one that my supervisor had
12 been very direct with wanting me to understand is we only
13 had one consultant who made the current requirement of
14 visiting every school on a five-year rotation, and now this
15 new act would require that she visit every school in
16 Wyoming on a three-year rotation. And she wanted me to
17 understand how intense and almost not doable that would be
18 for her staff person.
19 Q. So why did this meeting make your egregious list?
20 A. The reason that I notated on this meeting was I
21 thought the meeting had gone very well and both of the
22 Darlenes and the superintendent, Tamara Jackson and myself
23 were all engaged except at the end of this meeting I asked
24 both of them, how are other states managing, not just the
25 one visitation requirement, but all of the components of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 960
1 the new act, how were they powering up and able to do --
2 meet these requirements.
3 Q. And it -- okay. Still the question is why does
4 that make your most egregious list?
5 A. Let me add, then. So in asking that question,
6 both of them spoke to that, and I don't recall what they
7 cited and what other states were doing, but at the end of
8 the meeting everyone had said good-bye and had shaken
9 hands, Tamara was walking both of those visitors to the
10 elevator, and Cindy said then to me outside of her office
11 very specifically that she had not appreciated that
12 question, and she wanted me to know she had no intention of
13 growing state government and that she would not be hiring
14 more employees.
15 And I felt demeaned that she would have thought
16 my question was implying that. And I also felt that the
17 manner in which she was addressing me in front of other
18 people in the front office was very disrespectful, and as a
19 result, I went home and journaled that.
20 Q. Was there some standard that you had for
21 egregiousness in terms of what made your list of most
22 egregious or did you just start journaling everything?
23 A. No, I didn't journal what was hearsay or what I
24 didn't experience. I only took those notes if they were my
25 experience and/or my staff's experience and I was present
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 961
1 for it.
2 Q. Okay. In the interest of time, do you know --
3 first of all, do you have the list with you?
4 A. The list of what?
5 Q. Your most egregious list.
6 A. Yes, I got it in front of me this morning. It's
7 the list I prepared and provided to the MacPherson inquiry
8 team.
9 Q. How many items are on the list?
10 A. I have not counted them. I think about 18.
11 Q. Okay. And in the interest of time, can you
12 identify the most, most egregious things that occurred?
13 A. I believe the meeting with the Wyoming High
14 School Activities Association meeting would be one of them.
15 Q. All right. Let's go there. Let's lay some
16 foundation first. Was there some legislation that was
17 passed in 2011 that included guidance regarding head injury
18 resulting from school athletics?
19 A. Yes, I have it labeled as Enrolled Act 97, and it
20 was directing the Department of Education to develop
21 protocols for school districts and local school boards to
22 create policy for concussions and head injuries that been
23 acquired in athletics.
24 Q. Was that subject matter something that your
25 division was responsible to address?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 962
1 A. Yes, it was part of my school safety team.
2 Q. What did the new legislation require
3 specifically?
4 A. My recall is that we needed to develop model
5 protocols and then share those with school districts so
6 that they could use those to create their own.
7 Q. When did the meeting relative to this item on
8 your list occur?
9 A. Well, it happened that on that day of May 3rd I
10 was in the front office and realized by seeing the
11 superintendent's calendar sitting in the front office, it
12 was available for people to see, that the superintendent
13 was meeting with the Wyoming High School Activities
14 Association.
15 And unrelated to this concussion law, Tom Martin
16 was the Department of Education's liaison -- that's an
17 appointed position -- to the Wyoming High School Activities
18 Association, and I asked Rita Watson if Tom Martin was
19 attending that meeting, and she said, "I don't believe so."
20 And I said, "Do you know what the meeting is about?" And
21 she did not.
22 So the superintendent was not there, and I didn't
23 have her to ask this question of, but I looked for someone
24 on the leadership team to ask would it behoove me and/or
25 Tom Martin to participate in this meeting since he is the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 963
1 liaison. Perhaps we could lend some expertise or
2 information to the meeting, and I don't recall whether I
3 saw Roger Clark or John Masters, but one of them said no
4 problem. Go ahead and attend.
5 Q. Okay. And during the meeting with the -- what
6 did you call it, the Wyoming High School Activities
7 Association?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Did the subject of concussions or head injuries
10 related to athletics come up?
11 A. Yes, it did. Because the Wyoming High School
12 Activities Association had been proactively meeting with
13 people around that topic because, of course, it was
14 something of interest to them.
15 Q. Did you have somebody on staff who was
16 specifically responsible for starting to work on the
17 protocols that were required in response to that
18 legislation?
19 A. I did.
20 Q. Who was that?
21 A. Her name is Meaghan McClellan. She's a
22 registered nurse, although those were not her
23 responsibilities at the Department at that time. She had
24 been identified as the person to be the lead in enacting or
25 in implementing this legislation.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 964
1 Q. And during the meeting when the topic of
2 concussions or head injuries as a result of athletics
3 arose, did you suggest that maybe Meaghan McClellan ought
4 to come in and inform the superintendent and the high
5 school association of what was going on?
6 A. That is exactly what I did. I did know that
7 Meaghan McClellan and her direct supervisor, Chuck
8 Mitchell, had sponsored worked on this. And I knew that
9 some meetings occurred. In fact, I had participated in one
10 of the meetings, and I asked the superintendent if it
11 wouldn't be appropriate for me to go get Meaghan and invite
12 her to come in and participate in this meeting.
13 Q. And did she?
14 A. I did. And, yes, she did.
15 Q. And so why does this incident make your most,
16 most egregious list?
17 A. Well, from that meeting, which by the way, I
18 thought was very robust and a fairly profitable meeting
19 among the people from the High School Activities
20 Association and Meaghan McClellan and the rest of us that
21 we came to some consensus about how we were rolling out
22 this piece of legislation and that we would be all
23 including one another in that work.
24 It was only after that meeting as everyone had
25 left the room and we were all moving to the front office,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 965
1 the foyer area of the second floor of the Hathaway where we
2 office, that the superintendent said again in the front
3 area, could she please count on me in the future to get the
4 right people at the meeting, which took me aback because I
5 didn't know the meeting was happening until that morning,
6 and I'd not been included in the meeting and had inserted
7 myself and my staff into the meeting and explained to her
8 that I had been unaware, but yes, certainly, that I would
9 try in the future, but in this instance I didn't know this
10 meeting was happening.
11 She sort of brushed over that, but said and could
12 she please count on me to ask the right questions in the
13 future.
14 Q. What did that refer to?
15 A. I don't really know what that referred to, but
16 there was something evidently in how I had participated in
17 that meeting that she took fault with.
18 Q. All right.
19 A. I'd just like to add, too, that this was another
20 sort of public humiliation reprimand to me which I just
21 found embarrassing, unprofessional and unwarranted.
22 Q. You had been previously chastised for asking a
23 question of the two Darlenes, correct?
24 A. Yes. That's true.
25 Q. And now you were being chastised for not asking
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 966
1 questions, correct?
2 A. That's how it felt to me, yes.
3 Q. Let's go to your next most egregious incident.
4 A. Well, as I'm looking at my list here,
5 Mr. Salzburg, the one that comes up next is the repurposing
6 of my position 85 that was moved to another division,
7 Information Management.
8 Q. Okay. So let's lay some foundation. What was
9 the origin of position 85 in your division?
10 A. Position 85 was a position and an appropriation
11 that I had acquired in 2008 through Wyoming Statute
12 21-12-105, and we had been successful in conversation with
13 the legislature about offering a very sizable grant program
14 called the Career Demonstration Grant Projects. And I had
15 been given in this particular legislation the one full-time
16 position and salary and benefit money for that person to
17 enact this grant program.
18 Q. So what happened to the position?
19 A. Well, based upon my earlier testimony, Tom Martin
20 left in May of that year, and his position was filled by
21 Guy Jackson, who had worked for Tom Martin, leaving
22 position 85 open. Guy Jackson was in that slot 85. So I
23 assumed that as Guy Jackson moved up into the supervisory
24 role that now I would need to fill position 85 to carry out
25 those statutory requirements.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 967
1 As it turned out, I was told that I wouldn't be
2 filling that position, and it also was one that was going
3 to be repurposed, and it was, in fact, moved to Information
4 Management, and those duties were absorbed among the
5 existing team.
6 Q. And so why does that make this list of the most,
7 most egregious incidents?
8 A. Well, for a couple of reasons. The first that
9 this budget was specifically for a purpose. It was passed
10 legislatively, and position 85 was assigned to it, and it
11 wasn't going to be used for that purpose.
12 And the second reason is, to my knowledge, it was
13 not B-11ed and repurposed appropriately.
14 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next item, again, trying
15 to cull this down. Let's see. Miss Wigert, I want you to
16 know that the document is available for the committee's
17 perusal. You've already testified that, to the best of
18 your recall, it's accurate, all right.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And so we have a deadline today and we have
21 testimony from Superintendent Hill that we have to cover,
22 or try and cover, and she has to be out of here she
23 announces by 5 p.m., and so that's why I'm trying to hurry
24 you along. It's not because what you have to say isn't
25 important.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 968
1 A. I think I would just like to talk, Mr. Salzburg,
2 about two other incidents that are on my list.
3 Q. Good.
4 A. And the next one is the Wyoming PREP, and that's
5 acronym, P-R-E-P, funding.
6 Q. Give me some sort of a date reference so I can
7 find it in my notes.
8 A. This was around the April-May time frame 2012.
9 Q. All right. Well, explain what the issue was.
10 A. The issue is that the Wyoming Department of
11 Health had received in 2009 a 1.25, one and a quarter
12 million dollar grant from the Center for Disease Control,
13 and that money was for a grant entitled "Personal
14 Responsibility Education Program" that the Wyoming
15 Department of Health had applied for. It was a focus on
16 teen pregnancy and prevention using best practices
17 identified by the CDC, the Center for Disease Control.
18 And as it occurred, the Wyoming Department of
19 Health had contacted Meaghan McClellan in my division
20 because she had taken an active role in writing that grant
21 somewhere prior to 2009. The Wyoming Department of Health
22 had notified Meaghan that they were not going to continue
23 with this grant. There had been a change in governor,
24 there had been a change in Department of Health
25 directorship, and there had been some changes in program
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 969
1 managers. As such, they were going to return the majority
2 of the $1.25 million to the Center for Disease Control, and
3 they had stated they had only expended about $10,000.
4 Meaghan McClellan was very interested in this
5 program, and she brought it to me and her direct
6 supervisor, Chuck Mitchell, and to expedite my commentary
7 here, I asked her to prepare a fact sheet on what this
8 grant entailed. I saw the grant. It looked like it was
9 about 60 pages long, and I asked her to boil that up to a
10 page of facts, one page of facts.
11 I met with the contact person at the Department
12 of Health that Meaghan had been speaking with, and I said,
13 "We need to be able to summarize this and take this notion
14 to the state superintendent." And we were able to get on
15 her calendar around or on May 22nd, and we had submitted
16 that one-page fact sheet to the superintendent, and we were
17 prepared to have a conversation with her and answer
18 questions from her about the essence of this grant and how
19 it might benefit Wyoming students, and that was the purpose
20 of that meeting on the 22nd.
21 Q. And what was Superintendent Hill's response to
22 that meeting?
23 A. The three of us, myself, Chuck Mitchell and
24 Meaghan McClellan, went to the superintendent's office and
25 it lasted about three minutes. We had brought a copy of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 970
1 the fact sheet and gave it to her. Really almost no
2 conversation occurred. I set up the meeting. I introduced
3 it to provide a reminder of why we were there and happy to,
4 you know, talk about it or entertain her questions, and she
5 said that wasn't really necessary, and the meeting was very
6 brief. I can't remember much of what she said to Chuck
7 Mitchell and Meaghan McClellan except that she would get
8 back to them and let them know what her decision was. But
9 she wasn't leaning -- probably leaning towards taking the
10 funds, and she dismissed them from the meeting and asked me
11 to stay.
12 Q. And what did you discuss after Mr. Mitchell and
13 Ms. McClellan had been excused?
14 A. That becomes a -- that was another meeting that
15 lasted most of an hour. In that meeting, it was similar to
16 the other experiences that I had had with the
17 superintendent. She brought to my attention that we have
18 had issues like this before between her and me and that I
19 should know what she was talking about. I didn't challenge
20 her on those statements, but she did tell me that she
21 questioned my loyalty to her.
22 And I immediately had a flashback to the Tom
23 Martin meeting, and I thought this meeting could very
24 easily go for a very long time, and I decided this is an
25 opportunity to sit back and I'll indulge all these
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 971
1 questions and endure whatever needs to be discussed, but I
2 did say during that meeting that I was here to support her,
3 that I supported innovation in education. I like change.
4 I'm not threatened by it and that this was another
5 opportunity for change and innovation and that I was here
6 to help her. I was not working against her.
7 And somewhere in all of that meeting her what I
8 would describe as animosity towards me sort of ebbed, and I
9 believe she got a phone call or a text message, but there
10 was something that precipitated the end of the meeting at
11 which point she got up from her couch and I was sitting on
12 a chair across from her, and we walked to the door and the
13 meeting was at its end, and she stepped out in the hallway
14 and patted me on the shoulder and told me I was one of her
15 most valuable employees.
16 Q. So what's egregious about that?
17 A. Well, the egregiousness for me or the glaringness
18 of it was that I couldn't really figure out where I stood
19 in terms of my value and my contributions to her. Because
20 my experiences in the 90 days or so leading up to this had
21 mostly been negative experiences, and I couldn't understand
22 why now she was patting my shoulder and saying I was
23 valuable. They seemed very disparate and inconsistent to
24 me.
25 Q. So what happened to the grant?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 972
1 A. Thank you for asking me that. She did let me
2 know that she -- at that very moment that she would think
3 about it. I failed to mention that in our conversation
4 that she wanted me to understand that she was a
5 conservative and accepting this grant would lead to
6 conversations about birth control and the like or other
7 related topics and that she was not in favor of bringing a
8 grant in-house about that, relevant to that, and that she
9 would think about it and let me know her final decision.
10 And she did at some point in time, and I don't
11 recall the date, she did not accept the grant, and insofar
12 as I know, the remaining 1 million plus funds reverted back
13 to the federal government.
14 Q. Was Meaghan McClellan's position federally
15 funded?
16 A. Yes, Meaghan McClellan was federally funded on
17 another grant, soft money as we call it. It was a
18 competitive grant also from the CDC.
19 Q. If the teen pregnancy prevention program grant
20 had been accepted, was there funding there to continue
21 Meaghan McClellan's position?
22 A. Yes. It was a five-year grant, and so it would
23 have ensured that she would have had continued employment
24 at the Department of Education from -- transitioning really
25 from one CDC grant that was -- that was ending and moving
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 973
1 to this one that was already in process at the Department
2 of Education, but would have been continued for most of
3 four years.
4 Q. So as a result of the decision not to accept the
5 balance of the grant funding, what happened to Meaghan
6 McClellan's position?
7 A. Meaghan McClellan's position was vacated by her.
8 She announced her resignation at a date that I don't recall
9 right now. It's in my notes here. About two months before
10 her grant ended she sought other employment, was hired and
11 is working, at least I think, and is still working at the
12 Wyoming Department of Health, and that position then was
13 vacated.
14 Q. What's the last of your most, most egregious
15 incidents?
16 A. I think the last one as I look at the rest of
17 these, and there's several others that I have highlighted.
18 There's one that I won't talk about today. It was the
19 debrief after the select committee that caused me great
20 angst. But the one that I want to talk about because it
21 relates to my staff and less about me is the September
22 Support Systems and Resource staff meeting of September
23 12th of 2012.
24 Q. Okay. What happened at the meeting?
25 A. This was a meeting that the superintendent had
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 974
1 asked to have. She was -- had intentionally asked to meet
2 and wanted to be meeting with each of the divisions, and I
3 had scheduled her several different months at my monthly
4 staff meeting of staff, and it occurred then that we were
5 going to meet on September 12th. Just to ensure that this
6 one would go through, I texted her on the evening of
7 September 11th and said we're looking forward to having you
8 come tomorrow if that's still working with your plans, and
9 she responded almost immediately and she said yes, she
10 would there the next morning.
11 So this meeting had been planned specifically for
12 her. Again, this is a merged division, and we had -- with
13 using my three supervisors, each of those three teams had
14 met with their staff, and we had come up with a way of
15 informating her at this meeting. And what we had hoped to
16 do was to let her know about these various and other duties
17 that my staff performed that she probably was unaware of.
18 For instance, I didn't think she probably knew
19 that we had some Office for Civil Rights requirements that
20 we had to meet in order to ensure that students with
21 disabilities could participate in Career Technical
22 Education programs. And I didn't think that she probably
23 knew that they were approving driver's education programs
24 or that we had LGBT programs, gay, lesbian, bisexual
25 transgender programs that were underway or that we had a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 975
1 school safety committee.
2 So there were things that were outside of
3 probably the general working knowledge of the
4 superintendent's office that I wanted each of them to speak
5 to, and then we also wanted her to know about some of our
6 most recent successes and accomplishments that we had
7 gotten some accommodations. And finally we just wanted her
8 to know here are some of the hot button things that are
9 happening in our division that she would really want to
10 know about.
11 So as it happened, she came in a little late that
12 morning, and one of my nutrition staff had gone to Laramie
13 County School District Number 1 and brought back a healthy,
14 nutritious breakfast, part of what she had oversight for,
15 and we were enjoying USDA-approved breakfast burritos that
16 morning. And she came in. We offered her those -- one of
17 those breakfasts. She declined.
18 And so I set the stage and said, "These are the
19 things that we had wanted to talk with you about today,"
20 and we kind of began, got into the first area, whereupon
21 she said something to the effect that this isn't really
22 what she wanted to be talking about and she asked why --
23 why does everyone have -- "Why is everyone looking so sad?
24 Why am I not seeing any smiling faces?" And I thought that
25 was a little bit of a tone breaker or a, you know, kind of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 976
1 an off-putting remark.
2 But we moved forward at which point she said that
3 she really just wanted to talk about something else
4 altogether different, and her -- what she wanted to change
5 the conversation to, which I fully recognized was her
6 latitude to do, was to talk about how each of us was
7 individually helping students.
8 And so a few of my more verbose staff offered up
9 information around that, and at which point there was some
10 dead silence among my staff, and she said she would be
11 willing to stay for as long as it took, but she expected to
12 hear from every single person and she didn't mind the
13 silence.
14 So then I began kind of taking a little list and
15 creating segues for each of my staff so that each one of
16 them was able to answer her question.
17 And to summarize this, this made my most
18 egregious list because it had been a great opportunity to
19 share with her what was happening in my division. And I
20 really felt that the opportunity had completely been
21 missed, and it had become unnecessarily confrontational.
22 Q. Miss Wigert, do you think that you have given the
23 committee an accurate -- by virtue of these specifics an
24 accurate overview of your view of how the Department
25 operated under the administration of Superintendent Hill?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 977
1 A. Yes. I think this is a -- probably a sampling of
2 what I experienced to be an oppressive, dysfunctional,
3 destabilized environment and agency.
4 Q. Miss Wigert, I'm going to ask you just five
5 questions that were submitted to us by Superintendent Hill.
6 You've heard them before.
7 Are you familiar with the penalties for perjury
8 and that you are subject to those penalties should you
9 provide false testimony?
10 A. Yes, I am familiar with that.
11 Q. Did you speak to anyone prior to today about your
12 testimony before this committee, including Mr. Jarosh,
13 Mr. Salzburg, or representatives from their firms, members
14 of the legislature or other staff or employees of the
15 State, such as the Governor's Office or Wyoming Department
16 of Education regarding these proceedings today or Senate
17 File 104?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So tell us who you spoke to.
20 A. Regarding this process, I spoke directly with you
21 when you called me mid-December, and we established a
22 meeting for December 19th. I was out of state during the
23 holidays, and we spoke by telephone the end of the month,
24 and when I returned you and I spoke again on January 2nd.
25 Q. And describe in detail, if you can recall, the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 978
1 substance of those conversations.
2 A. The substance of those conversations were based
3 on this document, my most egregious incidents document, and
4 the notes that have been compiled by the MacPherson report.
5 Q. And how long did our conversations last?
6 A. On both December 19th and January 2nd, I believe
7 those conversations were three plus hours.
8 Q. Did the attorneys or their representatives
9 instruct you that your testimony must be truthful and, if
10 based on speculation, conjecture or opinion, must be stated
11 as such?
12 A. Yes, you did provide that to me.
13 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
14 relating to your testimony?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If yes, have you provided those documents to the
17 committee and superintendent?
18 A. It was provided to the committee via the
19 MacPherson report, yes.
20 Q. Okay. Do statements attributed to you in the
21 MacPherson report accurately reflect your testimony to that
22 committee?
23 A. Yes, it's very accurate, very few nuances of
24 incorrectness.
25 Q. So if yes, do you affirm under oath all of the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 979
1 statements attributed to you in the MacPherson report?
2 A. Yes, except for those nuances.
3 MR. SALZBURG: Mr. Speaker, that concludes
4 the examination.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I'm looking at my inbox.
6 I don't have an e-mail from you, Superintendent. Do you
7 have any questions? No questions?
8 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Yes, I do.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I don't have them. I
10 guess we've got committee questions first, I guess, and
11 then the superintendent questions. Any questions from the
12 committee? Representative Madden.
13 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Yeah, thank you,
14 Mr. Speaker.
15 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
16 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) Just quickly I wanted
17 to go back to the B-11 issues that you talked about. And I
18 don't know. I looked through your material in the
19 MacPherson report and other places, but were there other
20 instances within your shop, so to speak, that B-11 was
21 warranted but to your knowledge was not executed?
22 A. Mr. Speaker and Representative Madden, no, I
23 don't believe there was any other B-11 issue except
24 position number 85.
25 Q. There was -- Mr. Speaker. There was another one
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 980
1 involving the nutrition and then there was one involving
2 Career Technical Education, wasn't that right, that we
3 talked about today?
4 A. Mr. Speaker and Representative Madden, position
5 number 85 is the Career Technical Education position that
6 was repurposed. Oh, excuse me, and then, you just nudged
7 my memory. Yes, then the other one was the Health Safety
8 and Nutrition position. That was not in -- that was not my
9 responsibility. That was a position. It was another
10 division separate and equal to mine, and that position was
11 repurposed and provided to the Information Management
12 Division, and I had no responsibility or actions involved
13 with that position.
14 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Madam Chair.
15 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Just continue,
16 Representative Madden.
17 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) Do you know of any
18 other instances in other shops or other divisions in the
19 Department of Ed where a -- where it appeared to you that a
20 B-11 was probably warranted but you never heard whether it
21 was done or not?
22 A. Madam Chair and Representative Madden, I would
23 say that that situation characterized the last couple of
24 years that there were many repurposed positions whether or
25 not the B-11s had occurred, and someone was always trying
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 981
1 to unravel whether those had been done, whether they were
2 in process. So, yes, I have heard a lot of commentary
3 around whether or not B-11s have been completed.
4 Q. Do you believe that among leadership they looked
5 at B-11s as being an optional thing rather than a required
6 thing of the legislature?
7 A. Madam Chair, Representative Madden, I don't know
8 whether they considered it optional or whether they thought
9 it was a nuisance. I just know that there became -- there
10 was a lot of congestion around whether or not B-11s were
11 being done and whether it had been done on time or
12 appropriately.
13 Q. Do the B-11s that you are familiar with involve
14 any federal programs?
15 A. In both of the instances that -- Madam Chair and
16 Representative Madden, in both of the instances that I'm
17 talking about those positions were state funded. So I
18 can't answer specifically about any federally funded ones.
19 Q. Okay. B-11 in the case that we're talking about,
20 and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it involves a
21 shift in positions as well -- or in addition to a shift in
22 a position in these cases, there's a shift in funds or
23 dollars, right? And if that's the case, how does -- how do
24 you move into a new biennium in a budgeting process if you
25 don't shift the funds to follow the new position? I guess
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 982
1 I'm going by what I -- the textbook understanding, and I'm
2 trying to see how you do it in the real world if you don't
3 have a B-11 but you've got to have one, I mean for a new
4 budget. Can you help me with that?
5 A. Mr. Chair. Representative Madden, I'm not sure I
6 can help you a great deal, but --
7 Q. That's all right.
8 A. -- I would add in my experience when it wasn't
9 done appropriately, in the case of position number 85,
10 which was relative to Career Technical Education
11 legislation, even after the position and the funding was
12 moved to the Information Management Division, we got our
13 standard budgets for the next biennium with those funds
14 still labeled as being my program with position 85 and the
15 funding still belonging to me.
16 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: I understand.
17 Thank you.
18 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Madam Chair.
19 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Go ahead.
20 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Representative
21 Stubson.
22 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON) Madam Chair. Just
23 to follow up a couple of questions from Representative
24 Madden, when you saw the funding error in your standard
25 budgets, were corrections made to reflect those changes
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 983
1 where they hadn't done in the B-11?
2 A. Madam Chair. Representative Stubson, eventually,
3 yes. But we went into the next biennium with it still
4 incorrect, and as of last December, last month of 2013, we
5 did have it corrected.
6 Q. Madam Chair. And I'm really thinking back to the
7 time frame where Superintendent Hill was still the
8 administrator of the Department, did -- was it ever
9 corrected during the time of her administration?
10 A. Madam Chair. Representative Stubson, I can't
11 attest to exactly when that occurred. So I can't say
12 factually.
13 Q. Madam Chair. Do you have any more information?
14 You talked about the one other position from Health Safety
15 and Nutrition, I think. Do you have any position number
16 associated with that or job description or something so if
17 we wanted to go back and check the records on that, we
18 could?
19 A. Madam Chair and Representative Stubson, I do not
20 know right now what number that was, but that's very easily
21 discerned along with the description of the Health Safety
22 and Nutrition Division administrator.
23 Q. And if you could find that and just forward it to
24 the LSO for the committee, that would be helpful.
25 A. Representative Stubson, I can do that.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 984
1 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Representative
2 Zwonitzer.
3 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thanks, Madam
4 Chairman.
5 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Miss Wigert, do
6 you remember the WDE having a strategic plan under the Hill
7 administration while you were at the agency?
8 A. Madam Chair. Representative Zwonitzer, there
9 were several attempts, good-faith efforts to write a
10 strategic plan at the Department of Education during the
11 Hill administration.
12 Q. To your knowledge, was one ever published or
13 distributed to all the employees?
14 A. Well, as a matter of fact, yes. There was
15 unofficial distribution of draft plans. My recall is that
16 Gail Eisenhauer had stepped up at the time that she was a
17 part of the leadership team and had drafted a strategic
18 plan. When I say "a strategic plan," I'm talking about a
19 vision and a mission and duties, responsibilities for each
20 of the divisions and going so far as defining focus areas
21 or core values.
22 And that work actually led to sort of a morphing
23 into some other work that was done by Jerry Zellars, and
24 I've always been interested in and have some experience in
25 doing that type of thing, so I stepped up and volunteered
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 985
1 to participate in some of that planning, which I did with
2 Jerry Zellars. Ultimately Jerry Zellars stepped away from
3 it, and the superintendent asked me and a gentleman from
4 Laramie -- Laramie County Community College whose name
5 escapes me right now to do some off-site strategic
6 planning, and he led most of the initiative and I carried
7 through and we did circulate in-house some draft strategic
8 plan efforts in around February of 2012 is my recall.
9 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Mr. Speaker.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Go ahead. You're still
11 running the show.
12 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: I'm still running
13 the show. Okay. Does anybody else have any questions? If
14 not, I have a couple short questions.
15 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Going back to the Tom
16 Martin episode, was anybody from human resources involved
17 in the meeting you described?
18 A. Madam Chair, no, there was not.
19 Q. Was Tom Martin a classified employee?
20 A. Madam Chair, yes, he was.
21 Q. And are you familiar with the personnel rules of
22 the State of Wyoming as a supervisor?
23 A. Madam Chair, yes, I am.
24 Q. Is there a process for how a classified employee
25 is supposed to be reprimanded or disciplined in the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 986
1 personnel rules?
2 A. Madam Chair, yes. There is sort of increasingly
3 levels of severity, I don't know the term at the moment,
4 for how to reprimand an employee.
5 Q. And is it fair to say that the process was not
6 followed with Tom Martin?
7 A. Madam Chair, it was not followed.
8 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Thank you.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other questions,
10 committee?
11 Miss Wigert, I'm sure you know the process here.
12 Superintendent Hill has been very prolific with you and
13 submitted 33 questions to me.
14 Committee, I want you to look at question number
15 3. That's going to require us to go into executive
16 session. My preference is not to ask it just because I
17 don't think it advances our discussion whether it's true or
18 whether it's not true, but if any two of you want to do
19 that, we'll do that, and I'll ask for that at the end.
20 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Number 1, were you allowed
21 great latitude and supervision of your division during
22 Mrs. Hill's tenure at WDE?
23 A. I was granted latitude.
24 Q. Were you invited to participate in the
25 development of the statewide system of support being
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 987
1 developed by Mr. Pannell for the WAEA during the Hill
2 tenure at WDE?
3 A. Mr. Chair, I don't recall whether I was or not.
4 Q. But you didn't actively participate, did you?
5 Instead, choosing to have only a nominal involvement in the
6 support of WAEA. Isn't that a fair statement?
7 A. Mr. Chairman, my work -- very little of my work
8 for which I'm responsible is relative to WAEA.
9 Q. Did the female you are discussing become the
10 subject of an improvement plan?
11 A. Mr. Chair, I don't know which female you're
12 speaking of.
13 Q. I don't either.
14 Did you ever make an effort to terminate one of
15 the employees that you spoke of while she was probationary?
16 A. Mr. Chair, I don't believe I had any probationary
17 employee that we were considering removing. So no
18 recollection of anything relative to that.
19 Q. Did you maintain notes related to your work under
20 the McBride administration?
21 A. No, I did not.
22 Q. Why not?
23 A. I didn't have any issues with Dr. McBride that
24 would prompt me to do that.
25 Q. Did you have a great deal of latitude to discuss
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 988
1 with Mrs. Hill the selection of replacements for
2 Mr. Pickering and all other supervisors, directors and
3 leaders within your division, such as Mr. Mitchell or
4 Mr. Jackson?
5 A. Would you ask that question again, please.
6 Q. Sure. Did you have a great deal of latitude to
7 discuss with Mrs. Hill the selecting of replacements for
8 Mr. Pickering and all other supervisors, directors and
9 leaders within your division, such as Mr. Mitchell and/or
10 Mr. Jackson?
11 A. I don't believe I had a great deal of latitude.
12 The question is a little meaningless to me.
13 Q. Was it your custom to encourage that employees
14 meet off site to discuss concerns about the Department?
15 A. No, that was not my practice.
16 Q. Were you participating in some or all of these
17 meetings?
18 A. Mr. Chair, we did have meetings off site
19 occasionally, and those were usually at the library, and
20 that was only if there wasn't room or staffing space at the
21 Department of Education.
22 Q. Did you report the concerns raised in these
23 meetings to anyone so that actions could be taken to
24 address these concerns?
25 A. I don't know what concerns are being talked about
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 989
1 with regard to that question.
2 Q. Didn't Mr. Martin retire in early 2011?
3 A. Yes, I believe that's what I've got in my notes
4 here.
5 Q. Was it required that the superintendent accept
6 him as the final selection even though Dr. McBride
7 identified him as interim?
8 A. Would you ask that again, please.
9 Q. Was it required that the superintendent accept
10 him as the final selection even though Dr. McBride had
11 identified him as interim?
12 A. It was not required and she did have that
13 authority to do, select her own leader, yes. That was the
14 purpose for making him an interim in the first place.
15 Q. Had anyone promised Mr. Martin that his
16 appointment would be permanent?
17 A. I would have no knowledge of that. I wasn't part
18 of his appointment.
19 Q. Did you make such promises or assurances to him?
20 A. I had no role in his assuming that interim
21 position.
22 Q. Did you understand that your staffing levels were
23 in excess of the work required in your division?
24 A. I don't believe that to be a true statement.
25 Q. What statutory requirements of your division were
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 990
1 not fulfilled during your management of your division?
2 A. Please ask that question again, Mr. Chair.
3 Q. What statutory requirements of your division were
4 not fulfilled during your management of your division?
5 A. No statutory duties were left unfilled.
6 Q. Was Mrs. Hill informed that your division did not
7 fulfill its statutory duties?
8 A. No. There was no -- there were no duties that
9 were not fulfilled, to my knowledge.
10 Q. Did you understand that the superintendent wanted
11 to refocus the efforts of the agency to provide greater
12 level of instructional support for districts?
13 A. Would you ask that again, please.
14 Q. Sure. Did you understand that the superintendent
15 wanted to refocus the efforts of the agency to provide
16 greater level of instructional support for districts?
17 A. Yes, I did understand that.
18 Q. Was the new superintendent supplied an office?
19 A. I believe she was, Madam -- or Mr. Chair. I
20 don't know which office initially.
21 Q. I think it's the transition office is what she's
22 referring to. The next question is was it a small,
23 windowless space?
24 A. I do not recall that, Mr. Chair.
25 Q. You testified about secret notes you were keeping
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 991
1 since the beginning of Superintendent Hill's
2 administration. Do you remember that?
3 A. I call these my most egregious incidents.
4 Q. Did you ever discuss what you call the most
5 egregious incidents with those individuals that were
6 involved?
7 A. In most cases, no, I did not.
8 Q. Do you think it would be important to those
9 individuals to know that you felt they were involved in
10 what you considered to be an egregious incident?
11 A. I didn't feel that I had a healthy or safe
12 environment to be talking about what I thought was most
13 egreged. So, no, I did not talk about them.
14 Q. Would you want to know if someone was keeping
15 secret notes about your interactions or the concerns that
16 they had about you?
17 A. Not necessarily, Mr. Chair.
18 Q. Did you ever bring these incidents to the
19 attention of WDE HR?
20 A. I don't recall that I brought any of them to HR.
21 Q. Did you ever bring these incidents to the
22 attention of state HR?
23 A. No, I did not, Mr. Chair.
24 Q. Is it accurate to say that you kept these matters
25 to yourself?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 992
1 A. Yes, Mr. Chair, I kept these to myself in an
2 attempt to be a survivor and a thriver at the Department of
3 Education. So I processed these actions at home, found it
4 therapeutic to type or keyboard what had happened and
5 decided that it was my responsibility to step up and move
6 on and continue to support the administration and adjust to
7 change.
8 Q. Did Mary Kay Hill advise you to keep these notes?
9 A. She did not.
10 Q. Was she aware that you were keeping those notes?
11 A. She was not.
12 Q. Your communications were requested in a Wyoming
13 public records request in July of 2013. Are you aware of
14 this?
15 A. I don't -- ask that again.
16 Q. Your communications were requested in a Wyoming
17 public records request of July of 2013. Are you aware of
18 this?
19 A. Yes, I'm aware that there was a public records
20 request.
21 Q. You have not provided any e-mails in responding
22 to that request; is that correct?
23 A. I didn't intentionally do that. I understood
24 that was being done on behalf of everyone at the Department
25 of Education.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 993
1 Q. Don't you think that providing documents to Cindy
2 Hill is important?
3 A. Yes, if documents are requested.
4 Q. Would you agree that your impaired recollection
5 and incorrect notes of Mrs. Hill's comments in January 2006
6 meeting and other matters substantially call into question
7 your ability to accurately recall and report other
8 information you have provided?
9 A. No, I do not think so.
10 Q. Mr. Salzburg or other attorneys met with you
11 before this hearing to help you prepare your testimony; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes, Mr. Salzburg alone did.
14 Q. Mr. Salzburg helped you prepare to correct the
15 prior false information you had provided; is that correct?
16 A. He alerted me that the three questions that I
17 thought I heard were not exactly as I had scripted them,
18 and he did bring to my attention that that meeting was
19 January 6th, or excuse me, the 5th and not the 6th.
20 Q. Are you represented in this proceeding by
21 Mr. Salzburg?
22 A. Representative -- represented as?
23 Q. Is he your lawyer?
24 A. No, he is not.
25 Q. You're appearing here without counsel?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 994
1 A. I am appearing without counsel.
2 Q. You are aware that any other matters of which you
3 testify today or comments provided previously that will
4 require similar corrections? Are you aware?
5 A. Again, please, Mr. Chair.
6 Q. Are you aware of any other matters of which you
7 testify today or comments provided previously that will
8 require similar corrections?
9 A. I'm afraid I still don't understand the question.
10 Q. I think it's that there -- you made the
11 corrections to the three questions and a date. Are there
12 other mistakes in your notes that you know of?
13 A. No. To my knowledge, there are not.
14 Q. So are you aware that Mr. Salzburg, Mr. Jarosh or
15 other representatives from their office met with other
16 witnesses to prepare them to correct false information they
17 had provided previously?
18 A. Ask that again for me, please.
19 Q. Are you aware if Mr. Salzburg, Mr. Jarosh or
20 other representatives from their office met with other
21 witnesses to prepare them to correct false information they
22 had provided previously?
23 A. I'm not aware that they met to correct false
24 information, no, I'm not aware of that.
25 Q. So in the January 24th meeting with your staff,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 995
1 did you use the misquoted version of the three questions or
2 by that time had you learned that your notes were wrong and
3 that you needed to ask correct questions?
4 A. No, I had not learned it. I didn't know that
5 those questions were wrong until Mr. Salzburg pointed them
6 out to me this week.
7 Q. Is it fair to say that the inaccurate information
8 you provided your staff would have negatively influenced
9 their opinions and views of Superintendent Hill?
10 A. Would you ask that again, please.
11 Q. Sure. Is it to fair to say that the inaccurate
12 information you provided to your staff would have
13 negatively influenced their opinions and views of
14 Superintendent Hill?
15 A. No, I do not believe my information had any
16 negative impact on my staff.
17 Q. Have you reviewed the MacPherson report?
18 A. Not all of it, but portions of it related to me.
19 Q. Would you be -- would it surprise you to learn
20 that most of the complaints about Superintendent Hill come
21 from employees in your division?
22 A. I have no knowledge who made complaints.
23 Q. Would it not be fair to say that you should
24 shoulder a large part, perhaps even the major part of the
25 blame for miscommunication in the Department and fears or
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 996
1 misgivings that resulted in a dysfunctional, destabilized
2 environment of employees that resulted from that
3 miscommunication?
4 A. I do not believe that I miscommunicated.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Committee, question number
6 3, do you -- does anybody want to go into executive session
7 and hear it? Once, twice, third time?
8 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Can I have one
9 more question, Mr. Chairman?
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right, Representative
11 Zwonitzer.
12 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Miss Wigert, your
13 staff was all at the meeting January 5th as well, the staff
14 members that took place in the meeting with Cindy Hill, the
15 previous letter; is that correct?
16 A. Mr. Chair. Representative Zwonitzer, I believe
17 every one of my staff were there that day, yes.
18 Q. So at the meeting with Superintendent Hill and
19 your staff members toward the end of January, did any of
20 your staff members or Superintendent Hill correct your
21 recollection of these three questions at the time of that
22 meeting?
23 A. No, but, Mr. Representative Zwonitzer, many
24 people were taking notes, and I don't believe anyone's
25 notes were being corrected. So if all notes were
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 997
1 solicited, I'm sure among almost a hundred plus employees
2 the three questions could have been misrepresented or
3 misunderstood or articulated differently. I would suspect
4 that they would be among all -- among all WDE staff.
5 Q. When the superintendent met with you and those
6 were the three questions you discussed with your staff
7 members and prepared to answer for her, did she correct you
8 at that time that you had the questions incorrect?
9 A. Mr. Chair and Representative Zwonitzer, I now
10 understand the nature of your question. No. That was
11 never discussed that I was -- those were questions that she
12 wanted answers to.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Jarosh -- well, let me
14 finish with Miss Wigert first.
15 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) I have a question and you
16 don't have to answer. You can just tell me "I don't want
17 to answer that question," and that's fine with me. How do
18 you feel about having to go through this whole process of
19 the MacPherson investigation and then coming here under
20 subpoena and having to testify? And you don't have to
21 answer if you don't want to.
22 A. Mr. Chair, I will attempt to answer that. I feel
23 that as a state steward, a state employee, it's my
24 responsibility to participate as actively and as accurately
25 as I can, and I believe that my participation is a means to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 998
1 an end. And I do hope for the state of Wyoming and the
2 Department of Education that there is an end.
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you very much,
4 Miss Wigert. We appreciate you coming here and appreciate
5 all that you've gone through, and we all do appreciate your
6 dedication to the state of Wyoming. Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: And the education of
9 Wyoming. Thank you very much.
10 Any objections to releasing Miss Wigert from her
11 subpoena?
12 You will be released. Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Jarosh, in the
15 neighborhood of corrections, you apparently have one.
16 MR. JAROSH: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I had a
17 message earlier today from Dianne Bailey who testified
18 yesterday. So I called her back a short time ago. She
19 indicated to me that since returning to her office she has
20 discovered that she is incorrect when she testified that
21 the lease for the Laramie office was paid for from federal
22 funds. She said that she believes it either is or was or
23 both budgeted in the federal assessment budget, but that it
24 was paid for out of state funds.
25 And so I instructed her to submit an affidavit
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 999
1 correcting that mistake. I thought it was important to
2 bring it to the committee's attention now as opposed to the
3 affidavit being lost in the shuffle. She also indicated
4 that she is available to come and testify and be sworn in
5 again under oath to answer any questions with respect to
6 that, but she -- I thought it important to let all of you
7 know now that she had reached out to me to correct that
8 mistake.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: With that, we will be in
10 recess until 1:30.
11 (Hearing proceedings recessed
12 12:31 p.m. to 1:36 p.m.)
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Committee, we're back on
14 the record.
15 Counsel, call your next witness.
16 MR. SALZBURG: We'll call Superintendent
17 Hill.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Davison is
19 apparently out in the hallway having a conversation with
20 Superintendent Hill.
21 Superintendent Hill, while you were in the
22 hallway, we just called you.
23 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Sorry.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: So if you would come
25 forward. Superintendent Hill, did you receive the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1000
1 advisement with your subpoena?
2 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Speaker, yes, I
3 did.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I guess we went through
5 all this this morning, didn't we?
6 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: We did.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. You're still under
8 oath now.
9 Counsel.
10 CYNTHIAJOHILL,
11 called for examination by the Select Investigative
12 Committee, being first duly sworn, on her oath testified as
13 follows:
14 EXAMINATION
15 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Would you state your full name
16 for the record, please.
17 A. Cynthia Jo Hill.
18 Q. What is your current employment?
19 A. I am the Wyoming State Superintendent of Public
20 Instruction.
21 Q. When did you take office?
22 A. January 3, 2011.
23 Q. What is your employment history prior to taking
24 office as superintendent?
25 A. I worked in both the public and the private
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1001
1 sector, approximately 14 years in the private sector and
2 nine years in the public sector.
3 Q. And what in particular did you do in the private
4 and public sectors?
5 A. I worked in both day treatment, residential
6 treatment at inpatient as an education director and an
7 educational therapist. In the public sector I served as a
8 principal.
9 Q. And where did you serve in the private sector?
10 A. In the private sector I worked at -- I served as
11 an educational director at Cathedral Home for Children for
12 three years, 1988 to 1991, I believe. It's been a while
13 since I reviewed my resume. In 19 -- excuse me, 1985 to
14 1988 at Cathedral Home for Children in Laramie. In 1988 I
15 moved to Ann Arbor, Michigan and I was a mom for a while,
16 and then I began serving as an educational therapist in
17 inpatient therapy and day treatment at Catherine McAuley
18 Health Systems. I was there for seven years. I returned
19 to Wyoming and served Cathedral Home for Children as their
20 education -- their education director from -- I can't
21 remember the exact dates at this moment.
22 Q. Is the Cathedral Home for Children in Laramie?
23 A. It is.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. I believe it was 1996 to 1999 or 2000. And then
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1002
1 I completed a principal internship and became the -- one of
2 the principals, assistant principals, at Carey Junior High
3 approximately 2000-2001, and I was there for nine and a
4 half years until I resigned and I began the
5 superintendent's race in April of 2010.
6 Q. In any of those positions did you have any
7 experience with human resource or personnel management?
8 A. I'm not certain what you're referring to, but not
9 that I'm aware of.
10 Q. Did you have any direct experience with the
11 management of budgets?
12 A. I guess I'd like to go back to the last question.
13 In HR, when you were speaking to the human resource
14 experience, would you please restate the question?
15 Q. You mean ask it again?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you have any experience with human resources
18 or personnel management?
19 A. When I was serving at Cathedral Home for Children
20 and in Laramie County School District Number 1, I
21 interfaced with the resource managements, but I did not
22 serve in that capacity, no.
23 Q. Okay. And the next question, do you have any
24 direct experience with the management of budgets?
25 A. At both Cathedral Home I had some experience with
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1003
1 educational budgeting and certainly when I was at Carey
2 Junior High.
3 Q. When you were employed at Carey, that's in
4 Laramie County School District Number 1?
5 A. Carey Junior High is in Laramie County School
6 District Number 1, yes.
7 Q. Did the district have any personnel rules that
8 applied to your employment?
9 A. Ofcourse.
10 Q. Were you employed pursuant to a yearly contract?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So your employment was not what we commonly call
13 at will?
14 A. As a principal you are considered at will.
15 There's a continuing contract provision. But I believe
16 you're at will.
17 Q. So what governs your -- the ability of your
18 supervisor or employer to terminate your employment, the
19 contract or the at-will part?
20 A. Thecontract.
21 Q. Okay. So you understand that there's a
22 difference between a contract employee --
23 A. Yes,absolutely.
24 Q. --andanat-willemployee.
25 A. Yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1004
1 Q. Okay. Thank you. I want to assure you that I'm
2 going to ask you a general question at the end of this
3 examination which will give you whatever opportunity time
4 allows to address the testimony that you heard over the
5 last two days, but before I get there, there's some things
6 I want to cover first, okay?
7 A. Uh-hum.
8 Q. You're saying uh-hum. Make a remark to me or
9 something.
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. I won't waste time with the --
12 A. Thank you.
13 Q. -- going through the guidelines. Let me direct
14 your attention to the first all-agency meeting that
15 occurred a day or two after you were taking office. Do you
16 recall that meeting?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you heard the testimony from Mr. -- from
19 Ms. Wigert just a few minutes ago that it occurred on the
20 6th or 5th. Do you have a recollection of when it
21 occurred?
22 A. It occurred on January 5th.
23 Q. Okay. And where did it occur?
24 A. It occurred in one of the rooms in the Wyoming
25 Department of Education. I'm trying to think which one.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1005
1 No, it didn't. It occurred in the Hathaway Building, I
2 believe. I'm not certain. Let me think for a moment.
3 There are a lot of meetings that I attend. Just one
4 moment, please. It occurred in the Herschler Building on
5 the -- I think it was B63.
6 Q. Okay. If you don't remember something, it's okay
7 to say "I don't remember."
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. If you do remember, then I would like to have
10 your answer, all right?
11 A. Mr. Salzburg, when things have occurred three
12 years ago, it's hard to remember sometimes. I'll just
13 pause and try to remember.
14 Q. That's fine. Did you announce at that meeting
15 you had three questions to pose to the Wyoming Department
16 of Employment -- Department of Employment -- Department of
17 Education employees to consider?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. And do you recall what they were?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. What were they?
22 A. Would you commit to -- and I remembered as best
23 as I can three years ago, this is what I recall. Would you
24 commit or will you commit to every student? Will you
25 commit or will you respect every person who contacts you?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1006
1 And will you honor the superintendent's leadership or would
2 you honor the leadership or superintendent's leadership? I
3 believe you said superintendent's leadership today, but my
4 understanding from what I remember is would you honor the
5 leadership?
6 Q. Okay. So the substance of that third question is
7 the same whether you believe what I said or what you said,
8 right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. What did you mean by honor the new
11 superintendent's leadership?
12 A. Mr. Salzburg, when I was elected in January or
13 November of 2000 -- or 2010, I believe it was November 3rd,
14 I entered the Department of Education that next day and I
15 was -- I had spoken with Jim McBride. He had called me. I
16 missed his call. So I went over to the Department to meet
17 with him.
18 Once I was on the second floor, I began
19 interacting with various staff members, and from that
20 moment forward throughout the transition I experienced a
21 less than respective -- or excuse me, less than respectful
22 response. People had a difficult time making eye contact
23 with me for months as I would walk down the halls. I
24 learned later from leadership, the directors who were
25 there, two of them told me they had been told through that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1007
1 two-month period not to engage me. I would say good
2 morning to people, and they would look down and would not
3 engage, and so I knew pretty quickly after a few days of
4 being on the floor that people were not comfortable with
5 maybe what had happened.
6 I had defeated their boss essentially, the person
7 who had led them, and people were not comfortable. It was
8 a difficult time for them. So when they made arrangements
9 for me to have an office on the first floor, I, for the
10 most part, stayed in that area for two months in a very
11 small office until Mr. McBride -- or Dr. McBride had left.
12 I did ask to speak with people, and I was not
13 successful much of the time.
14 Q. So the question is what did you mean by honor the
15 new superintendent's leadership?
16 A. And so when I did have an opportunity to meet
17 with all the staff, I was hoping that they were willing to
18 first work with children and commit to them. The second
19 would be that they would respect every person who contacted
20 them. And the third would be that they would be willing to
21 honor the new leadership, because it was very clear that
22 that was going to be very difficult.
23 Q. So what did you mean by honor the new
24 superintendent's leadership?
25 A. The leadership, for example, at times some of the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1008
1 staff members who I had hired on as leaders were sometimes
2 treated disrespectfully by other staff members within the
3 Department. We'd have to talk about those things in
4 private if you wanted to know names and incidences, but
5 curt conversations, unwillingness to sit down and meet with
6 people. I experienced it and my leadership team
7 experienced it.
8 If I were to ask, for instance, a particular
9 director if I could meet with their staff, for instance,
10 the assessment director, I'd asked if I could meet with the
11 staff. We just had the PAWS problem that the former
12 administration had not been able to administer the PAWS
13 test in 2010 successfully or the previous year
14 successfully. So I asked to meet with the assessment team
15 in Laramie, and that director told me that that would not
16 be possible.
17 And I asked on a number of occasions, and finally
18 I just let him know I would be coming over on a certain
19 date, and whoever was there would be the right -- those
20 folks would be the right people and that we would have a
21 meeting.
22 So I had a very difficult time arranging
23 meetings. It was challenging to be able to sit down and
24 have people engage.
25 Q. Was a commitment by the Wyoming Department of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1009
1 Education employees to honor your leadership a term of the
2 employees' continued employment?
3 A. Excuse me? Will you please repeat that.
4 Q. Sure. Was a commitment by the Wyoming Department
5 of Education employees to honor your leadership a term of
6 the employees' continued employment?
7 A. I didn't -- I said would you honor the
8 leadership, and I didn't use that word "commitment." I
9 asked if they would honor the leadership. It had nothing
10 to do with their employment.
11 Q. So if an employee couldn't honor your leadership,
12 was -- is his or her employment in jeopardy?
13 A. Mr. Salzburg, I was there for two years, and one
14 employee was a permanent employee was fired, and the reason
15 that they were dismissed is because they could no longer
16 come to work. I worked with everyone as much as I possibly
17 could. No, no one's employment was at risk.
18 Q. Okay. During the period between your taking
19 office in January of 2011 and the effective date of Senate
20 File 104, do you recall on how many occasions you told the
21 Department employees that you didn't trust them?
22 A. Mr. Salzburg, I do not.
23 Q. Was it your practice as the head of the Wyoming
24 Department of Employment -- I keep saying employment --
25 Wyoming Department of Education to determine whether
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1010
1 employees were loyal to you or supported your agenda by
2 reading their body language?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You've heard testimony in this hearing about an
5 incident in Sheridan in which Kevin Lewis allegedly used a
6 360-degree camera to film or videotape the employees. Do
7 you recall the meeting?
8 A. I recall our travels to Sheridan. I don't recall
9 particulars about the meeting, but I do remember being
10 there.
11 Q. Do you recall whether or not Kevin Lewis brought
12 a 360-degree camera?
13 A. Yes, he did.
14 Q. And did he videotape or film -- I don't know what
15 kind of camera it was -- the employees who attended the
16 meeting?
17 A. I don't know that it was Kevin Lewis who
18 videotaped, but I do know there is a 360-degree camera that
19 we had on loan or perhaps had even purchased, I don't know
20 which one, and that the Department was invited up to
21 Sheridan so that we could interact with one of our highest
22 performing districts in the state and that we could learn
23 why things were working so well for them. And we often
24 videotaped best practices, and we often videotaped what we
25 thought would be something important to share with others.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1011
1 So, yes, that did occur.
2 Q. After the videotape was made, if it was a
3 videotape, did anyone report to you that one of your
4 employees' body language suggested that they didn't support
5 you or weren't on board or words to that effect?
6 A. No, I do not remember, but I do remember that one
7 staff member did after that trip state that what we were
8 doing in Sheridan was not what the Wyoming Department of
9 Education was all about. Instruction was not what the
10 Wyoming Department of Education was to be doing, our focus
11 on instruction was inappropriate, and she resigned a few
12 days later, and she had been on that trip.
13 I have heard testimony today that a particular
14 staff member had been videotaped, and someone had alleged
15 that that person indeed had poor body language. I would
16 never have considered that person ever to have poor body
17 language. She's a very highly respected staff member.
18 Q. Who reported to you that that staff member had
19 poor body language?
20 A. No one reported that to me. I heard that in the
21 MacPherson report and in the testimony here.
22 Q. Are you saying that any testimony on that issue
23 is just incorrect?
24 A. My understanding is that that testimony is
25 incorrect.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1012
1 Q. Did Kevin Lewis ever report to you that Roger
2 Clark's body language at a select committee on education
3 accountability in Casper was evidence that he didn't
4 support you and wasn't loyal to you?
5 A. I learned about what was reported here or
6 testified here regarding Roger Clark after the incident had
7 occurred. I did not know about Kevin's or anyone's
8 opinions about body language prior to that incident.
9 Q. When did you learn that somebody had an opinion
10 about body language as it relates to Roger Clark?
11 A. Shortly after the incident that was -- was
12 testified here where Roger had used the -- Roger was angry
13 and had referenced that it was -- an expletive was used.
14 Q. Let me make sure I understood your answer.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. It wasn't until the testimony in this hearing?
17 A. No.
18 Q. No, sorry.
19 A. It was after the incident and Roger had responded
20 during the incident that I heard about the incident. I did
21 not know about anything prior to that incident.
22 Q. Nobody told you beforehand that -- well, first of
23 all, do you recall being present at the meeting?
24 A. I was present at the meeting.
25 Q. And do you recall excusing yourself from the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1013
1 meeting after a very few minutes?
2 A. No, I do not. Excuse me, I did excuse myself
3 shortly, yeah.
4 Q. When you excused yourself, did you announce that
5 you hoped that everybody at the meeting would, quote, do
6 the right thing?
7 A. I don't recall that.
8 Q. And is it your testimony that prior to that
9 meeting you were unaware that Kevin Lewis was going to tell
10 Roger Clark that his body language at that hearing
11 suggested nonsupport?
12 A. I do not recall that.
13 Q. You do not recall it or are you saying it didn't
14 happen?
15 A. I don't recall it.
16 Q. Are you aware of any training that Kevin Lewis
17 had with respect to proper reading of body language?
18 A. I don't know of any training that Kevin Lewis has
19 had in that area.
20 Q. All right. The report by the education liaison
21 of the LSO that was issued on November 13th of 2012 stated
22 that 48 percent of staff members that were present at the
23 Wyoming Department of Education during November of 2010
24 were no longer there in September of 2012. First, have I
25 accurately stated what the report says?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1014
1 A. Mr. Salzburg, if I might give some background.
2 Q. No. My question is have I accurately stated what
3 the report says?
4 A. The report -- 23 percent -- this is what I know.
5 23 percent of the staff left the first year, and
6 approximately 17 or so percent left in the second year. So
7 I would assume that the report was accurate in that if you
8 continue to add each year, at some point you'll actually
9 have more than a hundred percent of the staff leaving no
10 matter what department you're speaking of.
11 Q. Do you agree with the statistic that in the time
12 period from November of 2010 to September of 2012, a period
13 of less than two years, 48 percent of the staff at the
14 Wyoming Department of Education left?
15 A. Mr. Salzburg -- and I'm going to give some more
16 background -- average exit in any -- transition of staff
17 from any department is about 15 to 20 percent at any point.
18 Let's say it's only 15 percent. If you multiply that over
19 every year, at some point you have a hundred percent
20 turnover. The Department of Education at its first year
21 had 23 percent, approximately 23 percent turnover, and in
22 the second year it was in the teens, and I can't say
23 exactly what the number was at this moment. So if you add
24 them together, perhaps it was 48 percent. I can't recall
25 the exact number at this moment.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1015
1 Q. Assuming the statistic is accurate, to what do
2 you attribute the loss of nearly half of the employees in
3 your department during the first 22 months of your
4 transition?
5 A. During the transition with a new superintendent,
6 I don't think that it's completely surprising, especially
7 if the change occurs as significantly as it was where we
8 went from a compliance agency to a compliance and
9 instructionally focused agency. You heard people
10 testifying today and yesterday and the day before regarding
11 their -- the disgruntled employees who were not comfortable
12 with those changes.
13 Q. Assuming that the statistic is accurate, to what
14 do you attribute the loss of nearly half of the employees
15 of the Department in the first 22 months of your
16 administration?
17 A. A change in administration.
18 Q. You heard the testimony of Teri Wigert today?
19 A. Mr. Salzburg, can I please add to the last
20 question?
21 Q. Sure.
22 A. I think the change in philosophy for the
23 Department was significant, and I also believe that there
24 was an effort to encourage other -- encourage people from
25 the Department to leave the Department as well.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1016
1 Mr. Salzburg, I'm going to expound upon that. I
2 spoke to the governor about this early on in 2011 in the
3 probably four or five months into my office. There were a
4 number of people who had gone to the Governor's Office to
5 serve and other state agencies. And I teased Governor Mead
6 after we had a meeting. I teased him and said that he
7 could let Mary Kay Hill know that she had forgotten a few,
8 and he laughed out loud. He did. He laughed out loud.
9 He said to me which employee was the most
10 important, or something along those lines, which one was an
11 employee that you -- let me think about this. It was
12 something about what employee did I value the most of those
13 when I walked in, and I said, "Rita Watson," and he looked
14 at me, Mr. Salzburg, and he said, "But she wouldn't leave.
15 She's too loyal to you." And I looked at him, and I said,
16 "You wouldn't know that unless you asked." And at that
17 moment we just closed our meeting.
18 I later have an e-mail that I -- from a records
19 request, one of the very few I have of Mary Kay Hill's
20 e-mails, which indicates that not only had the governor in
21 the e-mail had spoke to how I had spoken to this with him,
22 but also that she needed to start communicating with
23 employees from the Department of Education on private
24 e-mail from that point forward, on personal e-mail.
25 So I do know that there was an effort for -- for
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1017
1 some folks to be encouraging employees to leave the
2 Department of Education.
3 Q. Are you done?
4 A. I am.
5 Q. You've heard the testimony of Teri Wigert today,
6 correct?
7 A. I have.
8 Q. One of the notes that she included in her list of
9 most egregious events refers to the initial all-agency
10 meeting. And she says that you stated there that there
11 were a number of people on your transition team who would
12 not be illuminated. Do you recall making that statement --
13 A. I do not.
14 Q. -- at all agency? Have you reviewed the WEN
15 video of the all-agency meeting since it occurred?
16 A. I reviewed part of the WEN video, Mr. Salzburg,
17 after Cathy MacPherson. The report came out, and it had
18 misquoted me in the WEN video. So I went back to make
19 certain I recollected what had occurred, and so I reviewed
20 that part of the video, but I have not reviewed the entire
21 video.
22 Q. Do you have -- let's assume for the sake of this
23 question that you did make such a statement that you
24 weren't going to illuminate all of the members of your
25 transition team, and if you want to check on me, it appears
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1018
1 at 1 hour and 19 minutes into the video, all right? If you
2 did make that statement, do you have an understanding of
3 what you would have meant by illuminated?
4 A. Mr. Salzburg, I can't imagine at this moment what
5 I meant three years ago.
6 Q. Were there members of your transition team that
7 you didn't wish to identify to your employees?
8 A. Mr. Salzburg, I'm not certain what relevance that
9 has in this meeting right now.
10 Q. And then why don't you object and see what
11 happens?
12 A. I'm just asking. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't
13 know that's what I would need to do is object. Is that
14 what you're telling me?
15 Q. No, I'm asking you to answer the question.
16 A. Okay. Would you ask it one more time? Sorry.
17 Q. Sure. Were there members of your transition team
18 that you did not want to identify to your employees?
19 A. Mr. Salzburg, I think there's been some curiosity
20 perhaps expressed about my transition team when I first
21 came on board at the WDE, if I recall, and I thought that
22 was something that was not of anyone's concern. I didn't
23 think that had anything to do with the work that we were --
24 we were working on.
25 Q. How did you decide who would be on your
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1019
1 transition team?
2 A. Mr. Salzburg, the members of my transition team
3 were helpful as I was moving through a campaign and
4 preparing for the work at the Department of Education, but
5 mostly the work during the campaign, some people have
6 focused on that and some people had focused on the work
7 within the Department.
8 Q. How did you decide who would be on your
9 transition team?
10 A. Those who were appropriate for the work that
11 would be moving into the Department.
12 Q. So was it your intention that the transition team
13 would eventually become the leadership team?
14 A. No, Mr. Salzburg.
15 Q. So what do you mean by their ability to do work
16 for the Department?
17 A. There was a member on the transition team who had
18 skills in an area that I thought would be helpful to the
19 team.
20 Q. And who was that?
21 A. Kevin Lewis.
22 Q. Okay. And how did you -- well, first let's find
23 out what characteristics were you looking for in those such
24 as Kevin Lewis as far as being on the leadership team?
25 A. Kevin Lewis has research skills that I think have
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1020
1 been very valuable to our team. He is also capable of
2 doing many things, so special projects was something he
3 could help with. He's very personal.
4 Q. How did you meet Kevin Lewis?
5 A. I don't actually recall our first meeting.
6 Q. What background, education or experience do you
7 think that he had that made him qualified to serve on your
8 leadership team?
9 A. Kevin Lewis has experience in education. He was
10 a professor. He is very, very intelligent. He served in
11 the military. He's someone who I think brings a great deal
12 of skills when called upon to many situations. He has a
13 great deal of skill when it comes to data and technology.
14 Q. At the time that you asked him to serve on the
15 leadership team, was he employed?
16 A. I don't recall.
17 Q. Do you know who his next prior employer was?
18 A. I don't recall. I don't know.
19 Q. We've heard testimony that one of his duties was
20 to review departmental contracts. Is that accurate?
21 A. Uh-hum. Yes.
22 Q. What education, training or experience did
23 Mr. Lewis have that qualified him to perform that function?
24 A. Mr. Lewis is a very careful person. I don't know
25 that he has necessarily a great deal of experience in
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1021
1 reading contracts other than that which he may have done in
2 his own personal capacity. But I know that my experience
3 with him revealed that he was absolutely capable of reading
4 a contract and informing me where the challenges may be.
5 Q. How many attorneys did you have on staff when you
6 first took office?
7 A. One.
8 Q. Who was that?
9 A. Tania Hytrek.
10 Q. Is John Masters a member of the bar?
11 A. I don't know if he currently is or not. I think
12 you should ask him.
13 Q. Wasn't he serving as counsel to the
14 superintendent? Wasn't that his first position?
15 A. Tania Hytrek was first my counsel, and then she
16 moved to LSO. And then John Masters was the first counsel
17 that I hired.
18 Q. Okay. So John Masters wasn't on your transition
19 and leadership team when you first came into office?
20 A. No. No, he was not.
21 Q. Okay. So after -- was Tania Hytrek fired?
22 A. She resigned.
23 Q. But did she resign under pressure?
24 A. She resigned.
25 Q. Did she resign under pressure?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1022
1 A. You'd have to ask her.
2 Q. Did anybody go to her and say, "Tania, you can
3 either resign or else we're going to fire you"?
4 A. Mr. Salzburg, I don't know the exact conversation
5 that occurred. I was not in that conversation.
6 Q. Who was?
7 A. Sheryl Lain.
8 Q. Who gave Sheryl Lain instructions to go talk to
9 Tania Hytrek?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. And what did you tell Sheryl Lain to tell Tania?
12 A. I don't believe that I know exactly what she
13 said.
14 Q. What did you tell Sheryl to tell Tania?
15 A. I did not say to fire Tania, if that's what
16 you're looking for. I don't ever recall saying fire her.
17 What I remember is it was this -- this is what I recall: I
18 had asked Tania to attend an appropriations meeting with me
19 and if she would sit at the table as we were reviewing with
20 the appropriations committee, and she refused to. I
21 attempted to speak with her on a few occasions, and it
22 wasn't working. And so I said it's not working well, and
23 so I asked if Sheryl and Roger would sit down with her, and
24 I believe that I mentioned that we -- it wasn't working and
25 there would be several months that we would continue with
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1023
1 her, but I would be looking for other counsel to work with
2 me.
3 Q. Was Tania Hytrek an at-will employee of the
4 Department of Education at the time?
5 A. She was.
6 Q. So you didn't have to have any reason to dismiss
7 her, correct?
8 A. No.
9 Q. My statement is correct?
10 A. I did not have any reason to -- excuse me.
11 Q. You didn't have to have any --
12 A. Reason to dismiss her.
13 Q. Is that correct?
14 A. Due process always -- when I think about at-will
15 employees, I think about due process. So I think that
16 Tania and anyone else who is an at-will employee would have
17 due process.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, and
19 Superintendent Hill, if you could make sure that you speak
20 one at a time so that we have a clear record.
21 THE WITNESS: Sure.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: It would make our record
23 better and Eric's life much easier.
24 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Madam Superintendent, what's
25 your understanding of the difference between at-will
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1024
1 employment and, under the state system, permanent
2 employment?
3 A. Permanent employment provides -- I would see it
4 as you have a will -- just one moment. I'm a little bit
5 nervous. Just a second. An at-will employment -- an
6 at-will employee is someone who you have the ability to
7 work with them, and then once due process is exhausted,
8 then you can dismiss someone who is an at-will employee.
9 Someone who has permanent employment has a -- a property
10 right to their employment.
11 And so when this issue came up, Mr. Salzburg, as
12 to at-will employees and permanent employees, I felt that
13 the at-will or the permanent employees may have a -- I
14 shouldn't say do, may have a property right, and so I had
15 conversations with Governor Mead regarding the property
16 right of a permanent employee should never have been
17 questioned or that should never be something that we should
18 ever request of someone to change from permanent employee
19 to at will.
20 You seem to be frustrated as you're speaking
21 with -- or not speaking with me, you look other ways, and
22 it's very hard to have a conversation if you're looking
23 away. I hope this isn't adversarial because it's difficult
24 on my end to have a conversation with you when you're doing
25 that. I'm asking you just to listen to me for a moment.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1025
1 When somebody has a property right as permanent
2 employees do, it's important for them to be respected and
3 that that should never be challenged.
4 Q. Let me try it this way.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Superintendent Hill, do you understand that the
7 principal attribute of at-will employment is the ability to
8 discharge the employee without cause or reason?
9 A. Mr. Salzburg, I think that at-will employees do
10 have access to due process.
11 Q. Why?
12 A. I think every employee does.
13 Q. You mentioned earlier in your response some
14 reference to a property right.
15 A. Uh-hum.
16 Q. Does an at-will employee have a property right in
17 his employment?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So why are you talking about due process?
20 A. I think due process is -- without a property
21 right you still have due process.
22 Q. Oh.
23 A. You seem to be irritated by that response.
24 Q. Are you reading my body language?
25 A. No, I'm not. I just watch you move your head up
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1026
1 and down and look upwards, and you seem to be agitated from
2 what I can tell.
3 Q. Oh, I'm agitated for sure.
4 A. Thank you for clarifying.
5 Q. I've watched the video of your first all-agency
6 meeting held on January the 5th, 2011, and in that video, I
7 heard you say that issues related to organization in your
8 administration were to go to Roger Clark, and issues
9 related to instruction were to go to Sheryl Lain. Do you
10 recall giving that explanation --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- of the duties of your instructional leaders?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Then you announced that you hadn't
15 yet figured out what function Kevin Lewis would serve, but
16 you were sure that he was going to be on your leadership
17 team. Do you recall that?
18 A. I don't recall it, but if you say it's on there,
19 I trust it is.
20 Q. If so, when did you figure out what the function
21 was that Kevin Lewis would serve?
22 A. It was well into the months ahead. I don't
23 exactly recall.
24 Q. Okay. I'd like to direct your attention to a
25 meeting that occurred on November 19th of 2012. You've
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1027
1 heard lots of testimony about that, correct?
2 A. Uh-hum.
3 Q. Do you recall the meeting?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was the purpose of the meeting?
6 A. Forgive me, would you go back? Maybe I don't
7 have the right meeting. Tell me the date again.
8 Q. November 19, 2012.
9 A. Yes. Okay.
10 Q. What was the purpose of the meeting?
11 A. There had been a lot going on as a lead-up to the
12 legislative session. There had been media reports that the
13 Department was not -- did not have the capacity to fill
14 their -- that the Department was being questioned as to its
15 capacity, and I had spoken with the communications
16 director. He had come to me and informed me that he was
17 concerned about the new staff in the agency, that they may
18 not understand what's going on, where the staff had been
19 there for sometime would know that absolutely they would be
20 fine and that their work would continue no matter what had
21 taken place, that they absolutely did have capacity and
22 that we shouldn't be concerned about the staff who had been
23 there, but the new staff may need to have an opportunity to
24 talk about their work and be comforted to know that indeed
25 that they would be fine and not to worry.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1028
1 Q. Was the purpose of the meeting for you to address
2 a November 13th report from the education liaison of the
3 LSO?
4 A. We were, I believe, concerned about the media
5 that was going on, and so one of the things again regarding
6 capacity, during that meeting we were in a large circle,
7 people were sitting in a circle so they could all see each
8 other. I asked them to talk about their particular areas
9 of work so that they would know that it was valued and what
10 each other were doing. I talked about instruction. I
11 shared a video on the health academy in Rock Springs, also
12 an academy up in Jackson. We showed a video with
13 Dr. Fullan to discuss fragmentation, and we did the best to
14 allay any other questions or concerns that the staff had.
15 Q. Was the impetus for the meeting a report from the
16 legislative education liaison issued on November 13th of
17 2012?
18 A. The emphasis on the meeting was assuring --
19 Q. Impetus.
20 A. Impetus, impetus behind the meeting was to assure
21 the staff, the new staff that they were in a place that
22 they could feel confident and comfortable in their
23 position.
24 Q. So if it was the new staff, I take it there was
25 only the new staff that you asked to attend?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1029
1 A. And some of my leadership team.
2 Q. And how did you select which employees you wanted
3 to attend?
4 A. I'm not certain exactly how they were selected.
5 I know that, again, it was Jerry Zellars who had come to
6 me, the communications director, and I believe he had
7 spoken with maybe -- I'm making an assumption -- Rita
8 Watson as to contacting the new staff, and I don't know
9 exactly how they went about that, but those they thought
10 would benefit by sitting down and having a conversation.
11 Q. Those that who thought would benefit?
12 A. Jerry Zellars.
13 Q. So the meeting was Jerry Zellars' idea?
14 A. Initially, yes.
15 Q. And did Jerry Zellars attend the meeting?
16 A. I don't believe he did.
17 Q. Did Kevin Lewis attend the meeting?
18 A. He did.
19 Q. But did he speak?
20 A. No. He was the one behind the LCD projector. So
21 as we called up various videos, he was responsible for
22 showing those.
23 Q. Did you ask those who attended the meeting who
24 trusted you to stand up?
25 A. I don't remember saying to anyone if you trust
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1030
1 me, stand up, no. No, that did not happen. I asked if
2 everyone would stand up. Maybe we were standing. I don't
3 know. But, yeah, I'm sure I asked everyone to stand.
4 Q. So you don't recall asking anybody to make any
5 sort of motion that they trusted you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you ask those who could be trusted to take a
8 step forward?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you ask everyone to hold hands and tell them
11 "This is our circle of trust"?
12 A. I asked, if I recall, it would be those three
13 questions that I asked before, just remember, committed to
14 children, respect everyone who contacted you, and to always
15 honor the leadership.
16 Q. Did Kevin Lewis take notes when he wasn't
17 standing behind the projector or whatever the video machine
18 was?
19 A. I do not know. Mr. Salzburg, he was running the
20 projector.
21 Q. Well, the projector was being run only when you
22 were showing the video, correct?
23 A. Right, right.
24 Q. And so how long did this meeting last?
25 A. I don't recall.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1031
1 Q. How long was the video?
2 A. There were three or four videos that were shown.
3 So I don't -- I don't recall exactly how long each one. It
4 would have been ten minutes apiece, maybe five to ten
5 minutes. I don't recall.
6 Q. Okay. Did Kevin Lewis report to you any
7 disloyalty that he detected in the employees' body
8 language?
9 A. No.
10 Q. If any employees declined to stand, take a step
11 forward or to hold hands, did you have some thought about
12 what you were going to do?
13 A. That would have been fine.
14 Q. Do you recall on January 23rd of 2013 you
15 directed a number of your employees to come to your office
16 to be interviewed by Angela Benner?
17 A. I didn't actually direct them.
18 Q. Who did?
19 A. Probably one of the leadership team, and I don't
20 know which one, and I believe that they contacted Rita
21 Watson. It would have Rita -- my understanding, it would
22 have been Rita who would have asked each person to come to
23 the office.
24 Q. So Rita figured out who it was that ought to
25 come?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1032
1 A. No.
2 Q. Who did?
3 A. I don't know exactly who. It may have been Jerry
4 Zellars. It might have been Sam Shumway. It might have
5 been -- one of those two most likely.
6 Q. Were you there on the 23rd at the Department?
7 A. I was.
8 Q. Did you meet with Angela Benner and Sam Shumway?
9 A. I believe I did, yes.
10 Q. What did you talk about?
11 A. Mr. Salzburg, when we talk about the 23rd, is
12 this -- is this the meeting where we're discussing where we
13 would like to have her interview the staff members?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Okay. I'm sorry, the dates escape me. So we sat
16 down with Angela. We identified, I believe, three
17 questions, explained that we'd like to know what their
18 perceptions were of the meeting. If there were people who
19 were upset, I wanted to know. If they weren't upset, I
20 wanted to know that, too. That there had been some
21 indication from at least one staff member that they had
22 perceived something taking place in that meeting that I had
23 not perceived, and so I wanted to better understand what
24 their perceptions were.
25 Q. Why did you ask Angela Benner to do it as opposed
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1033
1 to your own HR supervisor?
2 A. I thought it would be important to have someone
3 from the outside come in and ask those questions. I had
4 asked for -- whenever you have an investigation, I think
5 it's good to bring in someone from the outside.
6 And I had asked for another investigation. Once
7 I'd been accused by a disgruntled employee as she was
8 leaving the agency, she e-mailed right after five o'clock a
9 very angry e-mail to me accusing me of questionable hiring
10 practices, and so I thought perhaps they had them, so I
11 said let's ask. And so I brought in -- I asked I think it
12 was Angela Benner to do that investigation as well. And
13 certainly we did have questionable hiring practices in that
14 person's division and another one. As a result I learned
15 that, but yes, whenever it was an investigation, I asked
16 someone from the outside to come in.
17 Q. So you asked Angela Benner to come in?
18 A. I didn't personally ask her.
19 Q. Who did?
20 A. I believe I contacted Mr. Corsi, or Dr. Corsi.
21 Q. But you made the request?
22 A. I did.
23 Q. And your recall is still that it was Rita Watson
24 who decided who it was that was going to be interviewed?
25 A. No, it wasn't Rita who decided. There needed --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1034
1 whoever was in a meeting in November 19th, those are the
2 folks I wanted to know what their perception was that had
3 taken place, and so it was an indication -- there had been
4 some indication that there was a perception different than
5 what I had experienced and that there might be people
6 uncomfortable at that meeting. And so I wanted to better
7 understand it.
8 So I believe that most likely it was Jerry
9 Zellars who worked with Rita to figure out who had attended
10 that meeting and then asked them to be interviewed.
11 Q. You mentioned that you had discovered another
12 staffer who had a different view than you did --
13 A. Uh-hum.
14 Q. -- about what that meeting entailed, correct?
15 A. Uh-hum.
16 Q. Was that Beth VanDeWege?
17 A. I had learned that, yes, that she had written a
18 letter, and it was about that meeting, and it was a very
19 different view than what I experienced.
20 Q. And on the 23rd of January, what was going on
21 over here in the legislature?
22 A. There was a lot going on, Dr. Salzburg, or
23 Mr. Salzburg. I don't know exactly what was going on that
24 day over here in the legislature. I'm sure there was a lot
25 going on with SF 104.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1035
1 Q. So was the purpose -- was one of the purposes of
2 the interviews to try to develop some rebuttal testimony
3 from other of your employees to counteract or to rebut what
4 Beth VanDeWege said in the interview?
5 A. Mr. Salzburg, the purpose of those interviews was
6 to understand what the perceptions were of those who
7 attended the meeting.
8 Q. After the interviews were completed, did you get
9 any information from the employees who had been required to
10 attend the November 19th meeting that would rebut the
11 information that Beth VanDeWege provided to Speaker Lubnau?
12 A. Mr. Salzburg, I don't recall exactly when I
13 received the information. I've read so much and there's
14 been so much that has transpired, I'm not certain exactly
15 when I received all the information.
16 Q. The question is did you receive some?
17 A. I have received information from the MacPherson
18 report, through the testimonies here and probably prior to
19 that. So I have received information as to how people
20 perceived that.
21 Q. Did you receive some information from Angela
22 Benner after she completed the interviews?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. Okay. So when's the first time that you can
25 recall that you had an understanding of what the employees
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1036
1 reported in those interviews?
2 A. I believe I may have had a conversation with Sam
3 Shumway. He may have given me some information about his
4 information from Angela Benner. But I -- I don't know
5 exactly how specific that was at this moment.
6 Q. Did you ask Sam Shumway and Megan Meisen to draft
7 letters to rebut the VanDeWege letter?
8 A. I asked Sam and Megan if they would write down
9 their perceptions as to what took place.
10 Q. And what, just notes for you?
11 A. It was important for me to understand what people
12 were perceiving.
13 Q. Did you tell Sam Shumway or Megan Meisen to draft
14 letters to be sent outside of the Department?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. Did you know that both of them did that?
17 A. I am aware of that.
18 Q. When did you become aware of that?
19 A. Probably -- I'm trying to think -- sometime
20 during that period.
21 Q. Were Mr. Shumway and Miss Meisen among the
22 employees that you trusted?
23 A. Mr. Salzburg, I trusted all the employees at WDE.
24 And, Mr. Salzburg, I still trust many of the employees at
25 WDE, and I don't know that that's an issue, trust. I will
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1037
1 work with everyone always. The issue of trust -- and that
2 word continues to come up, if you trust or don't trust.
3 That's not how I perceive people. You work with them.
4 Q. Do you recall an employee of the Department named
5 Brian Ross?
6 A. I do. Mr. Salzburg, I recall him. I don't know
7 him very well.
8 Q. When was Megan Meisen hired by the Department
9 originally?
10 A. I don't recall her exact hiring date.
11 Q. What position was she hired for?
12 A. I can't recall that at this very moment.
13 Q. Do you know what the duties were of the position
14 that she was hired for?
15 A. I do not recall.
16 Q. Do you know when she was made the Department's
17 human resources supervisor or manager?
18 A. I don't have that date in front of me.
19 Q. Can you tell me approximately?
20 A. Karen Kelley served as the HR director for a
21 number of months, and then she retired. John Shumway was
22 hired and served approximately seven months, as I recall,
23 before taking a position as the HR director at the State
24 Hospital as he had planned all along, and then we hired
25 Megan Meisen, and I do not recall that date.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1038
1 Q. What education -- well, first of all, who was it
2 that decided to hire her as the HR manager or supervisor?
3 A. There was an interview team, and I was on that
4 interview team.
5 Q. And so who decided to give her that position?
6 A. The interview team.
7 Q. Who else was on the interview team?
8 A. I don't recall. I'd have to look.
9 Q. Do you understand what an appointing authority
10 is?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. And what is an appointing authority?
13 A. An appointing authority would be an ability for
14 you to appoint somebody -- perhaps you should tell me,
15 Mr. Salzburg.
16 Q. Well, my understanding of an appointing authority
17 is the person who has the authority to hire.
18 A. Right. Okay.
19 Q. Is that accurate to your understanding?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who is the appointing authority for the Wyoming
22 Department of Education under your leadership?
23 A. I am.
24 Q. At the time that she was -- Megan Meisen was
25 appointed to be the HR manager or supervisor, whatever her
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1039
1 title was, did you view her as one who honored the new
2 superintendent's leadership?
3 A. I think Megan Meisen was respectful of all people
4 and would not undermine anyone in the Department of
5 Education.
6 Q. Did you view her as one who honored the new
7 superintendent's leadership?
8 A. I viewed her as someone who would not undermine
9 the leadership and would be honorable.
10 Q. I read an article in the Casper Star dated July
11 16th of 2013, just six months ago, after the confidential
12 section of the MacPherson report in redacted form was
13 released, and it contains the following quote: "In an
14 interview with the Star-Tribune, Hill said she didn't know
15 her employees were experiencing so much work-related stress
16 that it led to health problems. She said that she didn't
17 know what caused employees to be fearful." Then this
18 quote, "'There seems to be a subculture within the
19 Department that I was unaware of,' she said."
20 Is it true that on July 16th of 2013 you didn't
21 know that there were Wyoming Department of Education
22 employees who were experiencing so much work-related stress
23 that it led to health problems?
24 A. What was the date?
25 Q. July 16, 2013 was the date of the article.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1040
1 A. Mr. Salzburg, I was not aware.
2 Q. Did you tell the Casper Star-Tribune that you
3 didn't know what caused the employees to be fearful?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you say that there seems to be a subculture
6 within the Department of which you were unaware?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What did you mean by subculture?
9 A. I think in the last three days you've heard
10 people testifying that they were keeping notebooks, taking
11 notebooks and having special meetings or private meetings,
12 that there was -- there were things going on that I just
13 couldn't even imagine. I was so busy doing the work,
14 focusing on our kids and our schools, and I did not know
15 that these things were occurring.
16 Q. Did you have any suspicion about the cause of the
17 employees in the Department being fearful?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And you've told us both in your questions that
20 you've asked to be posed to witnesses and I think again
21 earlier in your testimony that during your tenure you only
22 fired one permanent employee; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In that same time period, from the time you took
25 office until the effective date of Senate File 104, how
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1041
1 many probationary employees were fired?
2 A. I do not know.
3 Q. In the same time period how many at-will
4 employees were fired?
5 A. I do not know.
6 Q. In a February 4, 2012 article in the Casper
7 Star-Tribune, the paper reports that you thought all
8 department employees should be classified as at will. Did
9 you think that all the department employees should be
10 classified as at will?
11 A. When I -- Mr. Salzburg, when I came into office,
12 there were positions that were open, and I converted
13 positions that were vacant, those vacant positions to
14 at-will positions. And, yes, I -- and I continue to do so
15 until I -- there was an AG's opinion that I no longer --
16 and the departments were to provide at will at a certain
17 level, and I've honored that.
18 Q. In February of 2012, did you think that all
19 department employees should be classified as at will?
20 A. I don't know exactly what I said in that
21 interview, but I will say that I think that at-will
22 employees are important in education, and I was comfortable
23 in converting at-will employees to -- or excuse me,
24 converting a vacant position -- vacant permanent positions
25 to at-will employee positions.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1042
1 Q. You mentioned that you got an opinion with
2 respect to your ability to make that conversion from the
3 attorney general, correct?
4 A. I asked for that opinion.
5 Q. Why did you ask for the opinion?
6 A. I thought that needed to be clear as to what was
7 appropriate here.
8 Q. Did you -- if the opinion had been, yeah, you can
9 make the conversion, would you have changed all department
10 employment positions to at will?
11 A. Mr. Salzburg, I don't know.
12 Q. So if it's true that you announced on February
13 4th, 2012 to the Casper Star-Tribune that you thought all
14 department employment should be at will and if it's true
15 that the principal feature of at-will employment is the
16 ability of the employer to discharge the employee without
17 cause or reason, does that suggest to you why there may
18 have been fear among your employees?
19 A. Mr. Salzburg, you're making conjecture when you
20 ask is that a reason. I don't believe that I can say how
21 employees feel or do not feel and whether they would be
22 fearful or not or why.
23 So I'm not -- I don't quite know how to answer
24 your question as to how someone would perceive that that's
25 not me. I can only speak to me. And I would not be
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1043
1 uncomfortable. I've been an at-will employee, and I'm
2 completely comfortable with that. I'm not fearful as an
3 at-will employee.
4 Q. You're an at-will employee?
5 A. I have been an at-will employee.
6 Q. Are you an at-will employee now?
7 A. I'm an elected official. That's different.
8 Q. And prior to that you were a contract employee?
9 A. I have been an at-will employee most of my
10 career.
11 Q. And what employment that you told us about
12 earlier were you at will?
13 A. My employment in Michigan and my employment in --
14 at Cathedral Home for Children.
15 Q. The same article reports that more than 50 people
16 had left the 146-employee department during your first year
17 according to the paper's analysis and payroll information
18 obtained from A&I. First, do you agree that more than a
19 third of your employees had left in the first year of your
20 administration?
21 A. I disagree.
22 Q. How many you do think left?
23 A. I believe I quoted 23 percent.
24 Q. I'm not the best at math, but if it was more than
25 50 of a 146-employee department, is my math right, that's
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1044
1 like 34 percent plus?
2 A. You are incorrect in your numbers.
3 Q. No, is my math correct?
4 A. It was 23 percent. And there were approximately
5 136 employees or so that were working at the Department.
6 So I don't have a calculator right here, but once you do
7 the math.
8 Q. Do you recall -- I'm going to change gears now to
9 Fremont 38.
10 A. Uh-hum.
11 Q. Do you recall a staff meeting that occurred on
12 July 22, 2011 in which you pitched the idea of using
13 $10 million in stimulus funding to implement WYR in a
14 Wyoming school district?
15 A. That is not correct.
16 Q. What do you recall?
17 A. If it's a meeting -- and again, I don't remember
18 the exact date. If you're talking about the -- we had
19 internal open hearings in the department where each
20 division came before the group, the superintendent and
21 others, to discuss their budgets, and we went through them
22 line by line. In fact, I offered -- I had offered the
23 appropriations chairman, Senator Nicholas, to join us. He
24 declined and asked that I not invite the rest of the
25 committee, the appropriations committee.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1045
1 But we went forward with those hearings, and in
2 those hearings -- and if this is what you're speaking to,
3 and I do not know exactly, but if you are speaking to when
4 Laurel Ballard and Dianne Bailey came before the group and,
5 instead of reviewing their budget line by line, stated "The
6 good news is we have $10 million in ARRA funds," I said,
7 "I'd rather we go line by line in your budget." And at
8 some point we let them know ultimately that we were not
9 going to need the ARRA funds.
10 Q. Is there an exhibit book in front of you --
11 A. There is.
12 Q. -- that contains Hill Exhibit 1?
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, we've been going
14 for about an hour and 15 minutes, and Eric has been taking
15 down some fairly phrenetic-paced testimony. If we could
16 take a break until three o'clock. Would this be an
17 appropriate time to do that?
18 MR. SALZBURG: Sure.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. We're in recess
20 until three o'clock.
21 (Hearing proceedings recessed
22 2:43 p.m. to 3:02 p.m.)
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: It's a little after 3:00.
24 We have a quorum. We're back in session.
25 Counsel, please continue.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1046
1 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
2 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Superintendent Hill, prior to
3 the break I asked you to take a look at what's been marked
4 in the notebook as Exhibit 1. Do you see that?
5 A. It's open, yes.
6 Q. Have you had a chance to look at it?
7 A. Very briefly.
8 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Tucker wrote what I think
9 is an op-ed piece for the Riverton Ranger on September 16,
10 2012?
11 A. It appears to be.
12 Q. Had you read that before today?
13 A. I have not.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And I have not read it today. I've only scanned
16 it.
17 Q. Right. I'll refer to it to help you refresh your
18 recollection to the extent you might need to to answer
19 these next questions, all right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. We've heard from Sheryl Lain many of the details
22 about WYR. Do you agree with her description that WYR is a
23 protocol which she and some others developed from a number
24 of other programs?
25 A. Yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1047
1 Q. All right. Can you tell us who Randy Tucker is?
2 A. Randy Tucker from Riverton, Wyoming served as a
3 consolidated grants manager and a technical -- or excuse
4 me, I believe that's technology director. I'm not sure
5 exactly all of his roles at Fremont 38 he served.
6 Q. Did you know Randy Tucker before you took office?
7 A. I met Randy Tucker one time before he took
8 office.
9 Q. So here is my first question that's related to
10 this op-ed piece. Do you recall that you were in a staff
11 meeting discussing the idea of using WYR in a school
12 district when Randy Tucker called from Fremont asking for
13 help to raise student scores --
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. -- for PAWS at Arapahoe Elementary?
16 A. No, I do not.
17 Q. If you would look at this op-ed piece, eighth
18 paragraph, it says, "My phone call arrived while
19 Superintendent Hill was in a meeting with staff that
20 included her deputy Sheryl Lain. They were discussing a
21 project called WYR (Wyoming Reads) and were looking for a
22 school to unveil the program at." Do you know if that
23 statement is accurate?
24 A. That is not accurate.
25 Q. Okay. Randy Tucker identified himself as the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1048
1 technology director at Fremont 38. Do you know if that's
2 accurate?
3 A. To the best of my knowledge.
4 Q. Okay. Was Randy Tucker the one who contacted the
5 Department of Education seeking assistance with low PAWS
6 scores at Arapahoe Elementary?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. And do you have any idea why a technology
9 director would be contacting the Department as opposed to
10 the superintendent or a principal or the chairman of the
11 board?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And why was that?
14 A. Mr. Tucker, from what I recall, there was a new
15 superintendent in their district, and he stated that the
16 new superintendent had asked him to call on his behalf.
17 And he went on to explain that 18 percent of their students
18 were proficient in reading in the third grade, and
19 essentially the conversation led to, "Are you willing to
20 work with us?"
21 Q. Next paragraph in the op-ed piece. "As they say
22 in the military, I was in way above my pay grade, without
23 the local superintendent's approval or without the
24 knowledge of the local board. I called on a Friday." So
25 you think that's a misstatement as well?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1049
1 A. I don't think he was under oath, Mr. Salzburg.
2 You quoted me earlier from the Casper Star, and when you
3 quoted me, I for a moment, even though the quote sounded
4 correct, knowing it came from the Casper Star, I wondered
5 if it were correct. I had to think about it for a few
6 moments because I don't trust anything that comes out of
7 the Casper Star. And as I read this, there are liberties
8 that have been taken I believe in journalism here.
9 Q. Who is the author?
10 A. Randy Tucker.
11 Q. And he's talking about what he did, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So what are the liberties that were taken by the
14 journalist?
15 A. I think they can write whatever they would like
16 to write. I don't know that he's under oath when he took
17 this and made the statement. He was not under oath. If
18 you would like to hear from Randy Tucker, I suggest you
19 have him as a witness and, just as you put me under oath,
20 ask Mr. Tucker to be under oath and then ask those
21 questions of him.
22 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that Randy Tucker
23 wrote this op-ed piece?
24 A. I have no reason to doubt that.
25 Q. So I'm just asking you, Superintendent Hill,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1050
1 whether the statements that he makes in this op-ed piece
2 are accurate or inaccurate?
3 A. They are not accurate from my perspective. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Do you think because he wasn't under oath
5 it was okay to make this inaccurate statement?
6 A. Mr. Salzburg, there are inaccurate statements
7 every day printed in our newspapers.
8 Q. So were you looking for a school to unveil the
9 program at?
10 A. No, Mr. Salzburg.
11 Q. Look at Exhibit 2. Got it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that a letter that you wrote to Stephen
14 Henderson, the superintendent of Fremont 38, on or about
15 July 25, 2011?
16 A. Mr. Salzburg, it has my signature. I have had no
17 time to review the letter. This is the first I've seen of
18 it. So I'm sure I did, but I write lots of letters, and
19 this is back in July of 2011. I'd like to review it before
20 I start answering questions.
21 Q. Absolutely. Go ahead.
22 A. Thank you.
23 Mr. Salzburg, I've completed. The read for me
24 was a quick read.
25 Q. Okay. Are you ready to answer questions about
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1051
1 it?
2 A. I am.
3 Q. The letter was written by you to the
4 superintendent of Fremont 38, Mr. Steve Henderson, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you see the statement in the -- just below the
7 middle of the page on the first page that says, "Fremont
8 County School District Number 38's superintendent, quite
9 coincidentally, has approached a member of my team with
10 information about the extremely low literacy scores that
11 plague the district." Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Why were you telling the superintendent of
14 Fremont 38 what the superintendent of Fremont 38 had known?
15 A. I don't recall.
16 Q. Did the superintendent of Fremont 38, quite
17 coincidentally, contact a member of your team with
18 information about the extremely low literacy scores or was
19 that, in fact, Mr. Tucker?
20 A. Mr. Tucker made the initial contact. We did
21 speak with the superintendent on a number of occasions. So
22 I don't know exactly which one we're talking about here.
23 Q. Who is "we"?
24 A. My team and I spoke with Fremont 38 a number of
25 times.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1052
1 Q. Who is we that wrote this letter?
2 A. I wrote the letter.
3 Q. So you don't know what you meant?
4 A. You asked -- what did you ask again?
5 Q. Why were you telling the superintendent of
6 Fremont 38 what the superintendent of Fremont 38 had done?
7 A. I don't recall.
8 Q. Okay. Is it true that it wasn't the
9 superintendent of Fremont 38 who contacted your team; it
10 was Mr. Tucker?
11 A. The initial contact was Mr. Tucker, and yes, I
12 did speak with the superintendent on a number of occasions.
13 Q. You also mention in the letter, the next
14 sentence, that you had met with your staff the previous
15 week to discuss -- the letter I think says SF5F, but I
16 think it means SFSF funds, correct?
17 A. I do not know. I'm assuming.
18 Q. Do you know that SFSF funds --
19 A. I do.
20 Q. -- are the State's fiscal stabilization fund
21 portion of ARRA?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. And that's what you were referring to, wasn't it?
24 A. Again, this is three years ago and I'm assuming,
25 yes. Yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1053
1 Q. When you said in the letter "SF5F," what you
2 meant to -- that's a typo, right?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And you were talking about the stimulus funds?
5 A. The ARRA funds, yes.
6 Q. So now back to the original question about the
7 meeting. In July of 2011, was it your understanding that
8 there was about 10 million in funds made available to
9 Wyoming under ARRA that might be used to fund the reading
10 intervention in Fremont 38?
11 A. Mr. Salzburg, you just asked two questions.
12 Q. Well, let me ask one, okay. In July 2011, was it
13 your understanding that there were about 10 million in
14 funds made available to Wyoming under ARRA that might be
15 used to fund a reading intervention in Fremont 38?
16 A. The first question that you asked, did I
17 understand that there was approximately $10 million in ARRA
18 funds, and that answer is yes.
19 The second question -- and would you like to
20 state the second half of that question or the second half
21 of your statement, which is the second question?
22 Q. On July of -- okay. We've established that you
23 were aware that there were 10 million in ARRA funds?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In July of 2011, were you under the impression
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1054
1 that those ARRA funds might be used to fund a reading
2 intervention in Fremont 38?
3 A. The answer is no. The full answer is we didn't
4 know if those would be used or not. I was not inclined to
5 use ARRA funds. We had not made a decision.
6 Q. Did there come a time when you were told that
7 ARRA funds were not available for that purpose?
8 A. I remember I was told that the Governor's Office
9 would like us to spend $10 million in ARRA funds, and I
10 recall that there was a time frame to spend those ARRA
11 funds. So at some point, yes, the ARRA funds would have --
12 that time frame would have been expired.
13 Q. I want to make sure that your -- your answer to
14 my question I think was yes.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There did come a time when you were told that the
17 ARRA funds were not available for that purpose.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. Mr. Salzburg, I want to make sure I answer your
21 question as I understand it, that the ARRA funds would
22 expire at some point. That's my understanding, that the
23 availability of those ARRA funds must be used within a
24 certain time frame or they would no longer be available.
25 That's what I understood.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1055
1 Q. So were ARRA funds available to fund a reading
2 intervention in Fremont 38 on July 25, 2011, or weren't
3 they?
4 A. Mr. Salzburg, I don't recall the exact -- my
5 understanding was ARRA funds were to be used for data for a
6 number of different -- that they certainly were not -- it's
7 not clear in my mind right now as to what the use of the
8 ARRA funds were. I can't say specifically that I remember
9 that.
10 Q. Did you have any state funding in your budget to
11 pay for a reading intervention program in Fremont 38 in
12 July of 2011?
13 A. Will you restate the question?
14 Q. Want to ask it again --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- or change it?
17 A. Will you ask it again?
18 Q. Sure.
19 A. Mr. Salzburg, I'm sorry, I'm quite tired, and I
20 wasn't able to eat lunch, and I'm feeling a little bit
21 tired even though we just came back from a break. But if
22 you'll restate the question, I'd appreciate it.
23 Q. Okay. Let's make clear what I need for you to
24 do.
25 A. Okay.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1056
1 Q. If I ask a question that you don't understand --
2 A. Uh-hum.
3 Q. -- I'll rephrase the question --
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. -- if I use, you know, a word or phrase that
6 doesn't make sense to you, but I want to make sure that I'm
7 responding to what you're asking. So if you ask me to
8 restate the question, I think you're asking me just to ask
9 the same question over, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. SALZBURG: Okay. Eric, would you
12 please read the question back.
13 (The question was read back.)
14 A. I do not recall.
15 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Did you eventually decide that
16 you would fund a reading intervention program in Fremont 38
17 and in particular at Arapahoe Elementary through a school
18 improvement grant?
19 A. Mr. Salzburg, at some point it's my understanding
20 that Fremont 38 applied for a school improvement grant and
21 I believe, along with all the other applicants, were
22 approved for a school improvement grant.
23 Q. Did you eventually decide that you would fund a
24 reading intervention program in Fremont 38 and in
25 particular in the Arapahoe Elementary School through a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1057
1 school improvement grant?
2 A. Mr. Salzburg --
3 Q. Did --
4 A. -- I thought I answered your question.
5 Q. Did you make a decision that you wanted to fund
6 the reading improvement program through a SIG grant?
7 A. Mr. Salzburg, there is a team that reviews those
8 applications for the SIG grant, and I don't actually sit on
9 that team.
10 Q. Did you know that Arapahoe Elementary was
11 preparing an application for a SIG grant to fund the
12 Wyoming Read program in Arapahoe Elementary?
13 A. Mr. Salzburg, I know a lot of things about
14 Arapahoe, and let me explain them and in terms of what you
15 just asked. When Arapahoe representatives called us and
16 asked us to work with them given their students had 18
17 percent of their readers in the third grade as proficient,
18 and they were interested in working with the Department, I
19 was very responsive, and their new superintendent was
20 interested in working with us.
21 I was -- I was personally committed to responding
22 to everything that they asked us to do given that they were
23 interested in working with the Department and that
24 relationship had not occurred in the past.
25 Their superintendent left by October. He'd been
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1058
1 hired just months before. When we began working with them,
2 within a year every administrator that we began working
3 with -- every administrator that I remember within their
4 central administration was gone within a year. So when
5 they had issues, whatever the issues were and they asked us
6 for help, we helped them, and that was that personal
7 commitment to Arapahoe 38, because they asked us to. Their
8 board worked with us very closely. I worked with their
9 board on a number occasions in person on site.
10 And so your question again, and I will respond to
11 it now given that background. Would you please restate it?
12 Q. Did you eventually decide that you would fund the
13 reading intervention program in Fremont 38 and in
14 particular in Arapahoe Elementary School through a school
15 improvement grant?
16 A. Again, there's a team of individuals who decide
17 what grants are funded, and their application along with
18 everyone who applied, my understanding is all applicants
19 received funding.
20 Q. Did you play any role whatsoever in the
21 preparation of the SIG grant that was filed by Arapahoe
22 Elementary School, Fremont 38, in September of 2011?
23 A. Mr. Salzburg, my role is always policy and at a
24 policy level, and I am not certain what role you're
25 referring to.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1059
1 Q. Anything.
2 A. I was on site with one of many visits, as someone
3 testified earlier this week, that I was on site when they
4 actually were submitting their grant, but I didn't have a
5 role in the grant. I've never read their grant. I'm not
6 familiar with the details of their grant.
7 Q. Who in your department is familiar with the
8 grant?
9 A. John Masters would be somebody you'd want to
10 interview regarding that grant.
11 Q. What reading intervention programs did you
12 consider to implement in Arapahoe Elementary other than
13 Wyoming Read, if any?
14 A. Mr. Salzburg, before we go to that question, I
15 want to clarify something. I was in a board meeting with
16 Arapahoe at one point, and I believe they reviewed their
17 program or their -- I've been in board meetings in Arapahoe
18 where they've reviewed information. They could have
19 reviewed something and I may have been present. I do not
20 recall the details. So I'm ready for your next question.
21 Q. What reading intervention programs did you
22 consider to implement at Arapahoe Elementary other than
23 Wyoming Read, if any?
24 A. Mr. Salzburg, after we were approached to work
25 with Fremont 38, we responded in person very quickly and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1060
1 met with their board, their teachers and their
2 administration, and at that point we asked a lot of
3 questions as to why it is that they were wanting to work
4 together, what their students' issues were, and what was
5 working and what was not. And so after a great deal of
6 information gathering, we realized that the students -- the
7 comprehension of the students was the issue. They could
8 read most any word. Some people would say they could read
9 like the wind, but they didn't know what they were reading.
10 And so we identified what we thought would be helpful to
11 those students so that we could increase their reading
12 comprehension.
13 Q. What reading intervention programs did you
14 consider to implement at Arapahoe Elementary other than
15 Wyoming Read, if any?
16 A. I would have to defer to the people who were
17 making those specific decisions in making those --
18 Q. You don't know at all?
19 A. No, I do not.
20 Q. Do you recall contacting Joy Mockelmann and Roy
21 Hoyle on September 27, 2011 and directing them to go
22 immediately to Arapahoe and assist Fremont 38 with the
23 preparation of the SIG application?
24 A. I don't recall that conversation.
25 Q. By September of 2011, Wyoming Read was already
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1061
1 being implemented at Fremont 38, wasn't it?
2 A. I believe that's true.
3 Q. And so if you don't recall calling Joy Mockelmann
4 and Roy Hoyle, I take it you don't have any recall of any
5 specific instructions you may have given them?
6 A. I believe that Fremont 38 was providing the funds
7 for whatever work was going on during that time. I don't
8 believe a SIG grant was involved. I don't know for
9 certain. I don't know the dates. I don't know exactly
10 what they're referring to. But my understanding is that
11 Fremont 38 was -- the district was funding the work.
12 Q. Didn't you just tell us that you were present
13 when Joy Mockelmann was preparing the SIG application at
14 Arapahoe?
15 A. Mr. Salzburg, I was, and I don't remember when
16 that was.
17 Q. But you were present when that was occurring?
18 A. She said I was. So I am assuming that I was. I
19 believe I was there. I was there on a number of times. I
20 think it was probably over a dozen times. And I don't
21 recall all the different dates I was there and exactly who
22 was doing what on what date.
23 Q. Do you recall being present when the SIG
24 application was being prepared with the assistance of Joy
25 Mockelmann and Roy Hoyle?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1062
1 A. When you say the SIG application was being
2 prepared with Joy Mockelmann and Roy Hoyle, my
3 understanding is that SIG applications are not prepared on
4 just one moment and one situation. I think they work on
5 them over time, and I think our work along with Fremont 38
6 occurred over a number of occasions.
7 Q. The school improvement grants are federally
8 funded, are they not?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And are there statutory and regulatory
11 requirements related to how those funds are used?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The No Child Left Behind Act requires that
14 intervention funded by a SIG must be created using
15 scientifically based research. Isn't that accurate?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you tell us what the definition of
18 scientifically based research is in the federal law?
19 A. I don't have that right before me. I know that
20 we followed all federal laws and federal rules. I have no
21 question about that. So my suggestion would be again for
22 you to interview someone at the federal level if there's a
23 question here. That would be the Office of the Inspector
24 General who could resolve that issue for you.
25 Q. In your view, if you have a view, did the Wyoming
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1063
1 Read program meet the federal requirements for a
2 research-based program?
3 A. At this moment I'd like to be able to look at the
4 information. I'm quite tired right now, and I'm thinking
5 I'm not even certain what question you asked me. Would you
6 repeat the question.
7 Q. Sure. In your view, if you have one, did the
8 Wyoming Read program meet the federal requirements for a
9 research-based program?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And are you aware that there's a federal
12 requirement that the teachers employed in the intervention
13 funded by a SIG grant must be highly qualified?
14 A. Will you repeat the question?
15 Q. Are you aware that there is a federal requirement
16 that the teachers employed in the intervention funded by
17 the school improvement grant must be highly qualified?
18 A. Mr. Salzburg, if you -- okay. Yes.
19 Q. What is your understanding of what highly
20 qualified means for the purpose of SIG funded
21 interventions?
22 A. Mr. Salzburg, the school improvement grant that
23 we've been speaking of does not include teachers. We're
24 speaking of paraprofessionals, I believe. Is that correct?
25 Q. What is your understanding of what highly
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1064
1 qualified means for the purpose of SIG funded
2 interventions?
3 A. Meeting the expectations that have been
4 identified for what a highly qualified teacher is required
5 to do probably would be appropriate certification.
6 Q. Did you hear the testimony of Beth VanDeWege when
7 she listed the highly qualified requirements under a SIG
8 grant for teachers, tutors and paraprofessionals?
9 A. And, Mr. Salzburg, I did, and that's her area,
10 and I will say that I understand most of those things to be
11 true, and in this grant it was paraprofessionals that they
12 were focusing on. Those are the folks who have been hired.
13 So I'm not certain of the relevance of the teachers, but
14 that's just my opinion. They weren't involved in the
15 grant.
16 Q. Let's go back to the op-ed by Mr. Tucker that's
17 Exhibit 1. First column, fifth paragraph from the bottom,
18 it says, "Incidentally, the only two" -- let me go up one
19 more to give you some background. He says, "A plan was
20 quickly set in place. Ten tutors were trained and hired,
21 and the children of Arapahoe were the beneficiaries of a
22 great experience." Do you agree with that?
23 A. Mr. Salzburg, I question why we're referring to a
24 newspaper article because I question anything in a
25 newspaper article. So I guess would you read that one more
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1065
1 time so I know exactly where you are.
2 Q. Sure. Let's make sure that you can read it along
3 with me.
4 A. I just need to know where you are, what
5 paragraph.
6 Q. I'm going to tell you. Do you see the paragraph
7 that starts, "As they say in the military"?
8 A. That's the ninth paragraph.
9 Q. Okay. Let's go to the tenth.
10 A. Thank you.
11 Q. "A plan was quickly set in place. Ten tutors
12 were trained and hired, and the children of Arapahoe were
13 the beneficiaries of a great experience." Do you agree
14 with that statement?
15 A. I would say that it was a great experience, yes.
16 Q. Oh, I didn't say -- yes, I need to take a reading
17 recovery program. The term was "experiment" not
18 "experience," right?
19 A. I would say it was a great experience. As you
20 said it was an experience, I agreed with you.
21 Q. I want to -- one, this is just too far -- I'm
22 just too old and blind.
23 A. For me to comment on someone's literary -- the
24 liberties that are taken here, I --
25 Q. Okay. Let's forget the problem of whether or not
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1066
1 this is accurate journalism and let me ask you this.
2 A. Thankyou.
3 Q. Do you agree that a plan was quickly put in
4 place?
5 A. If you consider that the Department had not
6 responded per Fremont 38 ever to them, they would consider
7 this quickly.
8 Q. Do you agree that ten tutors were trained and
9 hired?
10 A. I don't know how many tutors were trained and
11 hired.
12 Q. Do you agree that the children of Arapahoe were
13 the beneficiaries of a great experiment?
14 A. I believe it was a -- successful results were
15 obvious.
16 Q. Let's go to the next paragraph. It says,
17 "Incidentally, only the two directors, Joan Brummond and
18 Dr. Jane Brutsman, were certified teachers. The other
19 eight were just motivated young people with an interest in
20 children." Do you agree with that?
21 A. I would like to tell you what I believe versus
22 taking on his words.
23 Q. Do you agree with the statement?
24 A. I think there's some again literary flowering
25 here which is -- and liberties that's are taken, but I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1067
1 would -- I would just say that.
2 So that Jane Brutsman and Joan Brummond were
3 teachers. I agree with that. And they're certified
4 teachers, and I don't know who the other eight were, and I
5 don't know if they were all young, and I believe they were
6 all interested in children, but I don't know them
7 personally, so I can't tell you their commitment, but I
8 would hope that everyone would have a personal commitment
9 to the children of Fremont 38.
10 So you would like me to agree with every word in
11 there, and I'm unable to, but I did my best.
12 Q. Do you know whether the other eight were highly
13 qualified?
14 A. I don't know if it was eight, and I don't know
15 which other of the ones you're speaking to. I'd have to
16 look at those, and as paraprofessionals, my understanding
17 is that, again, we followed all laws and met all policies,
18 and yes, that anything that we were involved in there, we
19 were very committed to ensure that we did it appropriately
20 and legally, and the results were just the best part of
21 them.
22 Q. If in a federal audit of how the SIG funds were
23 spent it was determined that WYR is not a research-based
24 intervention as required by federal law or the teachers or
25 tutors that were used in the intervention were not highly
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1068
1 qualified such that the program didn't qualify for federal
2 funding, did you have a plan B to fund the program or to
3 repay the federal government out of state funds?
4 A. It was my understanding that what we were doing
5 there was unlawful and illegal, and I think that we all
6 would have come together, as we did many times, to modify
7 and adjust where we needed to as to what was working on
8 behalf of kids.
9 There was a great deal of modification and
10 adjustment. Whenever two entities were coming together for
11 the first time to work on behalf of kids, there was a great
12 deal of problem solving that didn't end, that was
13 continual. So there wasn't just a plan B. It was probably
14 a number of plans if you were to step back and assess it.
15 Q. Do you recall asking Gail Eisenhauer in August of
16 2011 whether the state system of support funds could be
17 used to hire reading coaches in Fremont 38?
18 A. I do not, no. I do not recall that.
19 Q. Do you recall meeting with John Masters on or
20 about August 25th of 2011 about concerns expressed by Gail
21 Eisenhauer and her team or about her and her team going to
22 Fremont 38 and teaching reading to the children?
23 A. I do not recall.
24 Q. Do you recall a leadership team meeting in late
25 August of 2011 in which you told the team that you didn't
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1069
1 want to hear any negativity about using WYR at Arapahoe
2 Elementary because the school district had asked for help
3 and you were going to give it to them without wasting lots
4 of time doing any planning?
5 A. Today you heard Teri Wigert mention that I would
6 stay as long as needed to listen to her, the staff that
7 were meeting with me, and that was and is my practice. I
8 have never in my career made a statement like that.
9 Q. Do you know whether the tutors who were supposed
10 to teach the WYR reading program to the kids at the
11 Arapahoe Elementary School were subject to background
12 checks and fingerprinting before they were put with these
13 children to do one-on-one tutoring?
14 A. I know that John Masters had gone to great
15 lengths to make certain that not only -- that WDE staff and
16 all of our staff I would think would have fingerprints and
17 background checks even though I know that this was a
18 district-level decision for the paraprofessionals so they
19 would be making those decisions, but I know how strongly we
20 felt about background checks even though the WDE did not
21 have those in place. For our own staff I know we felt very
22 strongly about that. I believe that the districts in our
23 state are required to do that. So my understanding is the
24 district would have ensured that given that this -- the
25 paraprofessionals were hired by the district and these were
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1070
1 local control decisions.
2 Q. I want to turn now to the contract of the
3 Department with Paul Williams.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, Superintendent
5 Hill didn't have a chance to eat and is a little tired.
6 Would this be an appropriate place to take a ten-minute
7 break?
8 Superintendent Hill, would that be acceptable to
9 you?
10 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I would appreciate a
11 break.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Is this an appropriate
13 place, Counsel?
14 MR. SALZBURG: Absolutely.
15 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Mr. Speaker, if
16 there are any documents the superintendent is going to be
17 questioned about, could we give her a heads up so she could
18 be looking at them during this break?
19 MR. SALZBURG: You know, Mr. Speaker, I
20 think that I have referred to all of the documents that we
21 have got in the exhibit book. If there's something that we
22 have that would refresh Superintendent Hill's recollection
23 of something and she needs it, we'll certainly try and find
24 it.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: And, Superintendent Hill,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1071
1 there are some sandwiches down in the legislative break
2 room if you would want somebody to go get one.
3 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I would very much
4 appreciate a sandwich.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I don't know what's left
6 down there. Drew, maybe you know what she wants --
7 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I will take whatever
8 is available.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We'll get you something.
10 We will be in recess until 10 minutes to 4:00.
11 (Hearing proceedings recessed
12 3:41 p.m. to 3:55 p.m.)
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We are back on the record.
14 Counsel, please proceed.
15 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Let me say that again on
17 the record. Counsel, we're on the record. Please proceed.
18 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
19 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Madam Superintendent, I wanted
20 to turn now to the contract between the Department and Paul
21 Williams. Are you generally familiar with the fact that
22 the Department had a contract with Mr. Williams?
23 A. Mr. Salzburg, is that somewhere in the exhibits?
24 Q. No.
25 A. Okay. Yes, I know of the contract with Paul
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1072
1 Williams.
2 Q. Was the contract required because the Laramie
3 office which housed the division that was responsible for
4 assessment was closed?
5 A. Mr. Salzburg, Dr. Williams was hired to serve in
6 the director position -- well, actually not even the
7 director position. He was hired to assist us during a time
8 of transition. We were -- the Laramie office did close
9 during that -- just prior to him coming on and he did step
10 in and assist us with a -- the assessments.
11 Q. Okay. I think we discussed earlier the fact that
12 Dr. Alan Moore was the director of the assessment division
13 of the Department of Education when you came into office;
14 is that correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. And what happened to Dr. Alan Moore?
17 A. In terms of?
18 Q. Is he still employed?
19 A. No, he's -- he took a job with Laramie County
20 School District Number 1.
21 Q. And when was that?
22 A. I don't recall the date.
23 Q. Okay. Did his decision to leave the Department
24 have anything to do with the closure of the Laramie office?
25 A. You'd have to ask him.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1073
1 Q. Did he tell you?
2 A. No, he did not.
3 Q. Okay. So when he was no longer the director of
4 assessment -- of the assessment division, is that what
5 necessitated the contract with Mr. Williams?
6 A. I don't remember all the details prior to that
7 contract.
8 Q. Tell us what a --
9 A. Mr. Salzburg, just to clarify, Dr. -- or Alan now
10 works in Laramie 1, which he would have been commuting
11 whether he worked at WDE or Laramie 1, so I don't know
12 exactly why you asked the question. I'm not quite certain
13 what your question was.
14 Q. Well, we'll move on.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Tell was what an assessment entails.
17 A. I'm not certain which assessment you're talking
18 about. Every assessment has a purpose, and I'm -- it's a
19 measure of something depending on whether you're measuring
20 something medically or student learning or I'm not certain
21 exactly what you're referring to.
22 Q. What was the principal duty of the assessment
23 division of the Wyoming Department of Education?
24 A. The assessment team focused on the state
25 assessments and the assessments that the Wyoming Department
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1074
1 of Education was responsible.
2 Q. Was Dr. Alan Moore the director of the division
3 that was responsible for assessment when you took office?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Do you know how much compensation
6 Paul Williams was to receive under the contract that he had
7 with the Department?
8 A. I don't have that information, no.
9 Q. Do you know whether the contract originally had
10 any provision for the payment of overtime?
11 A. I'd have to see the contract.
12 Q. Did there come a time, to your knowledge, when
13 Paul Williams made a claim for overtime pay?
14 A. I am familiar with that. I heard testimony on
15 that yesterday in fact.
16 Q. Was that the first time you heard about that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. When was the first time you heard about it?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. Do you have a definition in mind of what overtime
21 is?
22 A. Beyond the contract? Duties beyond what had been
23 contracted between two parties. If three's additional
24 duties, I would assume that would be considered overtime.
25 Q. Do you know how many hours state employees are
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1075
1 expected to work, full-time state employees?
2 A. It depends on how many hours total, 40, I would
3 assume, per week.
4 Q. Per month.
5 A. That would be -- you know, I would assume it
6 would be 160 hours, then.
7 Q. Okay. Well --
8 A. I don't have that right in front of me. In fact,
9 those are probably questions that someone with other areas
10 of expertise would want to be responding to. I'm sorry.
11 Those kind of details aren't right at the tip of my tongue
12 or knowledge base.
13 Q. Do you know whether Paul Williams was paid
14 overtime pay for hours that he claimed to have worked in
15 excess of 120 per month?
16 A. I don't have the exact numbers.
17 Q. Yesterday we heard testimony from Mr. Carroll
18 that Mr. Williams was paid over $260,000 in a 14-month time
19 period. Does that sound right to you?
20 A. I don't have that information before me.
21 Q. Do you have any reason to disagree?
22 A. With Mr. Carroll?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I would want the information in front of me.
25 Q. Have you had a chance to review the two reports
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1076
1 that Trent Carroll and Greg Hansen put together for the
2 legislature regarding the outside contract payment period
3 from July 2010 to October 2012?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you direct Mr. Carroll or Mr. Hansen or
6 either of them to scrub all references to T2T, SpLit, 3+8
7 or WYR from the report before it was delivered to the
8 legislature?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know if anyone else on your leadership
11 team made that direction?
12 A. No one.
13 Q. So to the extent that they say otherwise, their
14 statements are false?
15 A. Mr. Salzburg, you actually have information that
16 will clarify exactly what took place here. And I'm
17 assuming that you shared it with the committee.
18 Q. I do?
19 A. Yes, you do. You have all of our documents and
20 all of our e-mails, is that correct, Mr. Salzburg, from the
21 WDE? Do you have all of the information that we shared for
22 this investigation? Do you have that information?
23 Q. Are you referring to an external hard drive with
24 118 gigabytes of documents?
25 A. So you do have information. There is an e-mail
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1077
1 within that information from John Masters to Don Richards
2 at LSO and I'm assuming that -- and that will clarify
3 exactly what transpired there. I'm assuming you shared
4 that with the committee. Have you, Mr. Salzburg?
5 Q. Here is how this works. I get to ask questions.
6 You get to give answers.
7 A. Mr. Salzburg, I can only answer your question if
8 you answer mine. Have you shared that information with
9 this committee?
10 Q. Did you personally review the 900 series report
11 after the references were removed?
12 A. Mr. Salzburg, I have that document that I think
13 the committee should see --
14 Q. Sure.
15 A. -- in order clarify, but I would like to know
16 from committee members if you have seen this document
17 before?
18 For the record, I just passed out an e-mail that
19 reads, "JAC requests" header. It has 14 messages. LSO Don
20 Richards to Cindy Hill and it has a list of other
21 recipients. If you will turn to page -- it's two sided, so
22 if you'll please turn to essentially page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or
23 it's the third page in and there should be a highlighted
24 portion within there.
25 Now, Mr. Salzburg, I'm sure you're familiar with
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1078
1 this, but because I didn't get the answer to my questions,
2 if, committee members, if you'll please read this and then
3 let me know if indeed you have received this or not.
4 MR. SALZBURG: Mr. Speaker, is it out of
5 order for questions to be asked of me while you read?
6 THE WITNESS: It's critical information in
7 order for me to answer the question. I need to know if
8 committee members are already familiar with this. And if
9 you're not, then I will answer your question with this in
10 mind, Mr. Salzburg.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, it's probably out
12 of order in the interests of all of the -- getting all of
13 the information in. I think it's appropriate that the
14 counsel gave us essentially a million-page document dump,
15 it included confidential information. Because it included
16 confidential information, the LSO kept the documents so
17 that we didn't further republish, it was confidential
18 medical information on certain students. We didn't want to
19 publish that to all of the members of the committee,
20 further republishing confidential medical information that
21 was contained on that drive. So LSO and counsel had this
22 document. I have not seen this e-mail.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you for clarifying.
24 Committee members, if you could take a look at this, and I
25 will answer questions knowing that you have not seen it,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1079
1 but it was in possession of counsel.
2 Mr. Salzburg, I believe this e-mail clarifies
3 that indeed the information that was sent by or testified
4 by Trent Carroll and Greg Hansen yesterday, they had been
5 part of this e-mail string, and this e-mail clarifies that
6 we were -- the attempt at least here was to make certain
7 that it was clear that accuracy is what was being hoped and
8 achieved through all of the efforts that were being made at
9 that time.
10 If you would like to have more detail, perhaps
11 you should ask John Masters to serve as a further resource
12 to this e-mail, but I think it's important for you to know
13 about.
14 MR. SALZBURG: Okay.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, if you would
16 continue your examination.
17 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you.
18 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Did you personally review the
19 900 report after the references had been taken out?
20 A. I don't recall.
21 Q. It's Carroll Exhibit 8.
22 A. Okay. I don't recall. It's possible. I don't
23 know.
24 Q. Okay. I asked you before we got into this
25 whether or not you had seen those two reports, and I think
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1080
1 your answer was yes.
2 A. As I look at this particular format, it doesn't
3 necessarily look familiar to me, but I'm assuming that I
4 have seen it.
5 Q. Okay. There are in that report a number of
6 references to payments to Shan Anderson. Were you aware at
7 the time of that report that Shan Anderson is Sheryl Lain's
8 daughter?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And were you aware that a contract was issued to
11 Shan Anderson as a sole source contract?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you aware that Sheryl Lain was an official
14 of your administration who signed the sole source
15 justification for the contract award?
16 A. I learned of that after the MacPherson report.
17 Q. Were you aware at the time that Sheryl Lain was
18 the official of your administration who signed the
19 contract?
20 A. No. I learned about the contract after I read
21 the MacPherson report.
22 Q. When you came into office, did you familiarize
23 yourself with the provisions of Executive Order 1997-4, the
24 Executive Branch Code of Ethics issued by Governor
25 Geringer?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1081
1 A. Would you remind me of that so -- I don't know
2 the numbers by heart.
3 Q. The Executive Branch Code of Ethics.
4 A. Yes, I'm familiar with the Code of Ethics. Was
5 there a particular one you wanted to speak to,
6 Mr. Salzburg? I was wondering. The Code of Ethics I am
7 familiar with. I have read them, yes, I have. I am
8 familiar.
9 Q. When you came into your office, did you
10 familiarize yourself with the governmental Code of Ethics
11 that were issued by Governor Geringer?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. And when you came into office, did you
14 familiarize yourself with the Ethics and Disclosure Act?
15 A. I have and I did.
16 Q. Were you aware that the nepotism provision of the
17 Ethics and Disclosure Act provides, "A public official,
18 public member or public employee acting in its official
19 capacity shall not participate in his official
20 responsibility or capacity regarding a matter related to
21 the employment of a family member"?
22 A. I'm familiar and I agree with it.
23 Q. Were you aware that a violation of that provision
24 is considered in the statute to be sufficient cause to
25 terminate a public employee or to remove a public official
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1082
1 in office?
2 A. It makes sense to me.
3 Q. And were you aware that Section 6B of the
4 governor's executive order establishing the Executive
5 Branch Code of Ethics prohibits any public employee from
6 participating in a decision to employ a family member?
7 A. I couldn't quote it as you just shared, but that
8 makes sense to me as well.
9 Q. Were you aware that that was in the Code of
10 Ethics?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. And so if I understand your
13 testimony, you found out that Sheryl Lain had prepared and
14 signed the sole source justification for the employment of
15 her daughter, Shan Anderson, only as a result of the
16 MacPherson report, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. All right. Do you recall the first meeting of
19 your -- the first all-agency meeting, again, back to the
20 January 5, 2011 meeting, that you invited all of the
21 State's -- the departmental employees to take risks?
22 A. I don't remember saying it, but it sounds like
23 something I might say.
24 Q. Did you -- do you recall assuring them that
25 although you wanted all of the employees to take risks, you
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1083
1 never wanted to break the law?
2 A. SoundslikewhatIwouldsay.
3 Q. Do you recall saying that Sheryl takes a lot of
4 risks and that's why you trust her so much?
5 A. I don't recall saying it, but if you say I did,
6 I'm assuming I did. Sounds like something I might say.
7 Mr. Salzburg, I think people taking risks is a
8 good thing, not risks to harm one another, not risks to
9 harm themselves, but in order to grow, everybody should
10 risk learning more and exploring more.
11 Q. In your view, who was responsible for ensuring
12 that members of your leadership team followed the law?
13 A. I am.
14 Q. Okay. I want to go back just for a minute and
15 revisit the at-will issue and the attorney general's
16 opinion. You recall in July of 2011 you requested an
17 opinion from Attorney General Phillips regarding your
18 authority to change classified permanent positions to
19 at-will positions, correct?
20 A. Uh-hum. Yes.
21 Q. Yes. And the attorney general issued formal
22 opinion -- a formal opinion on August 25th of 2011 that
23 said in order to do that you had to get authority from the
24 Department of Administration and Information first; isn't
25 that right?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1084
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. Do you agree that the opinion that was issued was
3 a formal opinion?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. And do you understand that a formal opinion is
6 one that is published to the world?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. After that opinion was issued, did you continue
9 to hire people into classified permanent positions and
10 require that they execute agreements accepting at-will
11 employment?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did Mr. Masters ever provide to you a copy of
14 Angela Benner's March 5, 2012 report?
15 A. I do not recall seeing that report.
16 Q. Do you recall whether or not Mr. Masters ever
17 shared the findings of that report with you?
18 A. I don't know what the findings were as I'm
19 sitting here, so I can't recall -- I can't answer that
20 without hearing the findings because I do not remember what
21 they are and what those might be. So I -- I'd have to hear
22 them to think if I -- then I could respond whether or not I
23 had heard them before.
24 Q. Did you hear Angela Benner's testimony today?
25 A. I was drafting questions, so I heard part of her
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1085
1 testimony. I didn't hear all of her testimony. There's
2 things that I could have missed in her testimony as I was
3 drafting questions. As you preprepared the questions, I
4 was drafting questions for her and other witnesses. So,
5 no, I did not hear anyone's full testimony.
6 Q. Did you hear her testimony regarding the findings
7 that she made and published in her report to John Masters?
8 A. You'd have to remind me.
9 Q. Well --
10 A. I'm sorry, I don't remember that.
11 Q. -- you did or didn't.
12 A. I don't remember them.
13 Q. When you came into office, did you take the time
14 to become familiar with the Wyoming Personnel Rules?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Chapter 1, Section 4(a) says the following:
17 "Agency heads are responsible for applying these rules
18 within their agency and shall ensure that all employees
19 comply with the provisions. Agency heads are responsible
20 for the action of the agency management employees to whom
21 they have delegated in writing authority to act in their
22 behalf in any or all aspects of personnel administration."
23 Are you familiar with that provision?
24 A. I wasn't before. I am now.
25 Q. And you were the agency head, were you not, when
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1086
1 you were the head of the Department of Education?
2 A. Mr. Salzburg, I am the Superintendent of Public
3 Instruction, and yes, I am familiar with my position, yes.
4 Q. You were the agency head of the Department --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- at that time?
7 So would you agree that with regard to a
8 personnel or compliance with the State's personnel rules,
9 the buck stops with you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell me what your definition is of
12 witness tampering?
13 A. Mr. Salzburg, when I asked you if I could
14 participate or at least if you would videotape or audiotape
15 your work with the witnesses, I worried about potential
16 witness tampering where you might coach them or share with
17 them the questions that you would be asking of them. Those
18 are my concerns.
19 Q. Can you define witness tampering for me, please?
20 A. Not the legal term. I'm not a lawyer.
21 Q. Did you tell me yesterday that you have a concern
22 about witness tampering?
23 A. I have concern about the potential for witness
24 tamping, Mr. Salzburg, yes.
25 Q. Did you review the state statutes to see if what
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1087
1 you call witness tamping is a felony violation of the
2 criminal laws of this state?
3 A. No, Mr. Salzburg. I'm not an attorney.
4 Q. I didn't ask you if you were an attorney. I
5 asked you if you reviewed the statutes to determine whether
6 or not your accusation of witness tampering was an
7 accusation of a felony violation of the state laws of
8 Wyoming?
9 A. Mr. Salzburg, I am -- as I sit here today before
10 the committee, I am concerned about the potential for
11 witness tampering with this investigatory -- or
12 investigative committee, not the committee, but with what
13 you are doing, Mr. Salzburg, specifically.
14 Q. Okay. So your witness tampering comment was
15 directed at me?
16 A. With the special counsel.
17 Q. And I'm the special counsel.
18 A. Then that must be you.
19 Q. Okay. Is that what you intended?
20 A. The potential for witness tampering is what I am
21 speaking to, and I -- as I sit before you, I am still
22 concerned about the potential for witness tampering,
23 Mr. Salzburg.
24 Q. Have you heard the testimony of these witnesses
25 under oath that nobody coached them with respect to what to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1088
1 say?
2 A. Mr. Salzburg, I have had many hours of testimony.
3 I think it was -- we were in this room from 8:00 to 8:00
4 approximately on Monday. I think it was 8:00 a.m. until
5 9:00 something last night, and I will say to you that I
6 heard many comments during testimony that I am concerned
7 about regarding potential for witness tampering, yes,
8 Mr. Salzburg.
9 Q. Did you hear me ask the question that you asked
10 us to ask to every witness about their testimony being
11 under oath and the penalty for perjury?
12 A. Mr. Salzburg, I also heard you say that you
13 received a text today from Dianne Bailey that the Laramie
14 office had been not paid for by federal funds, it had been
15 paid with state funds, and that she was going to correct in
16 affidavit her testimony from yesterday. As I sat in this
17 room with you yesterday, I knew that she was not being
18 honest or forthright, whatever the word is. I'm not a
19 lawyer, so I don't know how to tell you that what she said
20 was not truthful, and I had no opportunity to speak to it.
21 And fortunately, Dianne Bailey texted you today
22 and gave you the accurate information. Now, I will tell
23 you there are other instances that perhaps you will receive
24 a text about. I don't know. But I do have concerns about
25 what's taken place, and I will follow up with those
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1089
1 concerns when I have all of that information before me, I
2 have time to review the hours and hours of testimony in the
3 last 48 hours and be able then to show the evidence that's
4 available, Mr. Salzbee -- Mr. Salzburg, that you have
5 chosen not to share with this committee.
6 That is what I'm concerned about. You have
7 chosen not to share all facts with this committee, and I
8 don't know why, but I do worry about the potential for
9 witness tampering and the one-sidedness of only the
10 witnesses who have come before you. With the exception of
11 Sheryl Lain, the other 14 are one-sided.
12 And there are people out there who can give you
13 accurate information. You didn't have to share with me
14 Randy Tucker -- Randy Tucker's articles. You could have
15 had him sitting before you and asked him those questions
16 yourself and had him under oath.
17 I have a whole group of staff over at the OSPI
18 who would be happy to give much accurate, credible
19 information, documented information like what I shared with
20 you here to shed light on what really happened. It's about
21 the truth, and I do not believe that you have heard all
22 facts, and I -- I am concerned about that, Mr. Salzburg.
23 Q. Here is what I'm asking you.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you have any evidence that I asked or that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1090
1 Mr. Jarosh asked or that Mr. Lenhart asked a witness to
2 falsely testify before this committee?
3 A. Mr. Salzburg, right now I don't have all of my
4 notes. I don't have all of the transcript. I will answer
5 that question when I have that information before me. Just
6 as I would hope that you would use all of the information
7 that was before you and done a thoughtful and thorough
8 review before you answered or worked with this committee, I
9 deserve that opportunity, too, to make certain that I have
10 that evidence before me so that I can share it with you
11 specifically.
12 Q. I promised you at the beginning of your
13 testimony, Superintendent, that I would give you the
14 opportunity to address anything that has been stated. I
15 know that it's late in the day, but I'm going to keep the
16 promise.
17 You've been here during the testimony of a number
18 of witnesses over the last two and a half days, more than
19 two and a half days. So let me ask you generally whether
20 there is anything that you heard from a witness that in
21 particular you disagree with?
22 A. Mr. Salzburg, right now I'm exhausted. And I
23 cannot answer your question at this moment. I need to
24 review all the material and then be able to speak to it
25 clearly and give you your answer.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1091
1 MR. SALZBURG: Okay.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Is that your examination?
3 MR. SALZBURG: It is, Mr. Speaker, thank
4 you.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Questions from the
6 committee.
7 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Mr. Chairman.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Stubson.
9 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
10 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON) Mr. Chairman,
11 Superintendent, do you still have the e-mail that you
12 handed out there in front of you?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. And, first of all, actually if you would turn in
15 the notebook in front of you to Exhibit 8 under the Carroll
16 exhibits I believe you talked about previously. Do you
17 have that?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Mr. Chairman. Superintendent, that title across
20 that says it's a 900 series report, correct?
21 A. It is.
22 Q. And you, from your work with budget, you're
23 familiar with the 900 series, correct?
24 A. I am.
25 Q. And that's the number that the budget system uses
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1092
1 for outside contracts, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Looking at the highlighted e-mail that you gave
4 us from Mr. Masters on December 27th, do you have that in
5 front of you?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. And he in that paragraph refers to the T2T
8 initiative, he refers to paragraph number 5. Do you see
9 that? It says also on paragraph 5 reference is made to T2T
10 initiative. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If you'll flip to the front e-mail on the front
13 page and you look at -- do you see the paragraphs are
14 numbered there?
15 A. Uh-hum.
16 Q. And make sure you say yes.
17 A. Yes. Sorry.
18 Q. And go to paragraph 5, please.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And at paragraph 5, it talks about a description,
21 and under A, it talks about personnel engaged in the above
22 work by position number and source of 100 series funding.
23 Do you see that?
24 A. I do not.
25 Q. It's paragraph 5, subparagraph A, do you see
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1093
1 that?
2 A. I'm sorry, I'm looking on page 1, number 5.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. And there's subparagraph A.
6 A. Oh,okay.
7 Q. And do you see that paragraph refers to the 100
8 series?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, look at paragraph 1 on that same page. Do
11 you see that?
12 A. Canyouwaitforonemoment?
13 Q. Yep.
14 A. I'mlookingatnumber1.
15 Q. And that refers to the 900 series, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And so if we go back, flip back to Mr. Masters'
18 paragraph, we know when he refers to paragraph 5, he's not
19 even talking about the 900 series report, correct?
20 A. You're asking me to walk through a series of
21 e-mails that were exchanged and written by a group of
22 people where I was not involved.
23 Q. Well, Superintendent, isn't this the e-mails you
24 just gave us, the e-mails you're relying upon?
25 A. Mr. Stubson, Representative Stubson, I am. And
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1094
1 if you would like to go through this in clear detail, I
2 want that. I want you to have full information. But I
3 think it makes sense that you have the people who are
4 involved in this before you and the committee instead of me
5 speculating as to who wrote what and why, and I'm telling
6 you that this gives you a clear understanding that this
7 question was not about what did someone write --
8 Q. Let me stop you there and ask you a question that
9 I know you know --
10 A. Scrubbing.
11 Q. -- something about. You -- when this report was
12 submitted in December of last -- actually two years ago,
13 December of 2012.
14 A. Uh-hum.
15 Q. You had met with the JAC at that time, correct?
16 A. I don't recall how -- I don't recall all the --
17 the chronological order of all these things, no.
18 Q. In December of 2012 you certainly remember, don't
19 you, that JAC had expressed concerns about T2T and SpLit to
20 you?
21 A. I don't recall exactly when that was expressed,
22 no, I don't, but I know that you've expressed it, but I
23 don't recall exactly where and when.
24 Q. But you do know JAC had expressed and repeatedly
25 expressed to you concerns about SpLit and T2T, correct?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1095
1 A. I know that there's a -- it was a budget footnote
2 in a bill that was of concern, but I do not know that
3 again -- and again, at JAC that was not my recollection.
4 Q. And the budget footnote you're referring to was
5 actually back in 2011 or it was in the 2012 budget,
6 correct, so early in 2012?
7 A. Not -- actually, I was thinking about 2013 is
8 when it was specifically stated. In 2012 I recall that
9 monies were moved from one budget to another, but it was
10 not clearly understood that that was -- it was a budget
11 footnote, and it wasn't lengthy and specific in its nature.
12 Q. But you understood from the budget footnote that
13 T2T and SpLit were a concern and a basis for that footnote,
14 correct?
15 A. I understood that monies needed to be moved from
16 one budget to another is what I understood. I went by the
17 law. We did exactly that, Mr. Stubson, Representative
18 Stubson.
19 Q. And just so, Mr. Chairman, so I'm sure that I
20 understand, your testimony here under oath today is that
21 you did not participate in a meeting where Mr. Carroll and
22 Mr. Hansen were directed to scrub the reports to the JAC.
23 A. I remember meeting many times and perhaps in a
24 meeting with them, absolutely, I could imagine that. What
25 I don't remember ever happening is asking someone to scrub.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1096
1 In fact, those words came from Representative Lubnau about
2 scrubbing or a report being scrubbed. Those comments have
3 been made in the last 24 hours in testimony.
4 Mr. Hansen and Mr. Carroll both when asked by
5 this committee if they knew the intent of the work that we
6 were doing in the meetings or meeting, they did not know
7 the intent is what they testified here, and that's why I
8 have this e-mail before you so that you would have an
9 understanding that it was all about accuracy and clarity
10 and that that will always be the case.
11 If you would just, I would say, ask a few more
12 witnesses to come forward and gather all the facts, you,
13 too, will have a better understanding as to what was taking
14 place. No one was scrubbing or scrubbed information.
15 In fact, you don't make this amount of e-mails or
16 this kind of information and communication to the LSO and
17 all involved and not have a clear understanding that it's
18 about accuracy.
19 Q. And, Superintendent, maybe it was my phraseology
20 that was throwing you off. I guess to rephrase, are you
21 testifying that you did not participate in the meeting with
22 Mr. Carroll and Mr. Hansen where they were directed to
23 remove reference of T2T and SpLit from the submissions to
24 the JAC?
25 A. Mr. Stubson, Representative Stubson, there was a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1097
1 lot of confusion and I wanted accuracy and I always do, and
2 that's what you do with reports. You work with them and
3 continue to correct them and make them, you know, the
4 corrections as needed. We had secretaries entering
5 information regarding the contract may come in or that they
6 may have typed in T2T when it really was professional
7 development. And if you looked at that contract, you would
8 see it was professional development and a secretary typed
9 in T2T, and so that would be confusing.
10 So the narratives speak to professional -- the
11 requirement of professional development, and I wanted
12 accuracy and clarity, and I think that that's what this
13 speaks to. And I think that anyone who was in a room with
14 me would always know that's what I would be seeking.
15 Q. And, Superintendent, my question, though, was is
16 it your testimony that you did not participate in a meeting
17 with Mr. Carroll and Mr. Hansen in which they were directed
18 to remove reference of T2T and SpLit from submissions to
19 JAC?
20 A. I was -- I'm sure I would have been in the
21 meeting. I'm assuming I would be in the meeting, yes. The
22 second part was that they would be -- what was the second
23 part of your question?
24 Q. It's really just one question.
25 A. No, it has three parts.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1098
1 Q. Is it your testimony that you did not participate
2 in a meeting with Mr. Carroll and Mr. Hansen --
3 A. I did.
4 Q. -- in which they were directed to remove
5 reference of T2T and SpLit from submissions to the JAC?
6 A. They were directed to continue to provide an
7 accurate report, and I don't remember if it was -- they
8 were directed to, you know, take out T2T and SpLit or
9 whatever words, you know, you're choosing or they testified
10 to. I know that anytime we would have asked and, again,
11 not into the details, but we would have wanted the most
12 accurate report for you all.
13 And that report would have been aligned with the
14 narratives and the actual work, the contract, and if we
15 have secretaries who are putting in acronyms that may be
16 professional development but they are acronyms of
17 professional development, that is very confusing to people.
18 Q. So I guess -- and I still haven't gotten an
19 answer to my question, which is I'm assuming, then, from
20 your answers that you did, in fact, participate in a
21 meeting with Mr. Carroll and Mr. Hansen in which they were
22 directed to remove reference of SpLit and T2T from
23 submissions to the JAC?
24 A. I would say that there may have been references
25 to T2T that were removed, yes, if they were not accurate.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1099
1 Q. And you participated in those meetings where they
2 were directed to do that?
3 A. If they were not accurate, yes.
4 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: I think that's all
5 the questions.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
7 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Mr. Chairman.
8 Superintendent.
9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) I just had a
10 question back to the Angela Benner interview because I was
11 confused with your testimony. So what your testimony was,
12 and I want to make sure we're on the same page, you called
13 Director Corsi because you wanted to have an external
14 review and testimony from employees of your agency
15 regarding events that happened, correct?
16 A. Will you forgive me for a moment?
17 Mr. Speaker, can I make a clarification for a
18 moment?
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Sure.
20 THE WITNESS: And I think it might help
21 you.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We want accuracy.
23 THE WITNESS: Representative Stubson, I
24 wanted to make certain that professional development
25 dollars that -- always -- and reflect exactly what was
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1100
1 happening, that professional development dollars were being
2 used for professional development. It's that simple. And
3 if there was confusion going on, I wanted to make certain
4 that the accuracy was there so that that was clear. I just
5 wanted to clarify to you because I know it seems a little
6 bit confusing.
7 Now, I will go on to your question,
8 Mr. Zwonitzer.
9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) So, Superintendent
10 Hill, you did call Director Corsi and ask for him to direct
11 human resources professionals to come in and review members
12 of your agency?
13 A. I asked Mr. Corsi for assistance, yes.
14 Q. And you were aware there were about 30 of these
15 employees who talked to Mrs. Benner about personnel matters
16 in your agency?
17 A. Which investigation are you speaking to?
18 Q. The second time, Mr. Chairman, Angela came down.
19 A. The first time was on hiring practices and I
20 asked her to analyze if we had any issues with the hiring
21 practices, and the second time I asked for outside
22 assistance was to, yes, to come in and speak with -- listen
23 to the employees, asking them what their perceptions were.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And then I thought your
25 testimony was you never found out what the results were
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1101
1 from Miss Benner's investigations. Is that true or is that
2 what you testified that you never asked for a copy of the
3 results or information that your employees provided?
4 A. I did not -- I do not remember receiving a copy
5 of the results of Miss Benner.
6 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Chairman, asking Mr. Masters
7 and Mr. Shumway generally what information the employees
8 provided?
9 A. I would imagine that Mr. Shumway and I would have
10 had that conversation.
11 Q. Okay. So you were aware, then, of at least some
12 of the reactions from your employees from what they told
13 Miss Benner even generally at the interviews what the
14 results of most of the interviews were?
15 A. Mr. Zwonitzer, a lot was happening right then and
16 a lot has happened since then, and so it is not completely
17 clear as to what conversation I had regarding that at what
18 time and what the specifics are. I don't remember seeing
19 the results of her report. I do know that when the
20 MacPherson report came out that I have reviewed her
21 information, and that's when I actually saw her statement
22 and e-mails related to that. But I don't remember seeing
23 anything like that prior. I didn't see her information
24 prior to that that I recall.
25 Q. And one other question, Mr. Chairman. A separate
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1102
1 matter earlier, Superintendent, we were talking about
2 Fremont, and you described that your role as superintendent
3 is policy and it's always about policy. Do you see the
4 role of a superintendent of public instruction as a
5 policy-setting position?
6 A. Primarily.
7 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Okay. Thank
8 you.
9 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) I have a couple questions,
10 Superintendent Hill, just so that I understand. When you
11 make a payment, your secretaries code it into the WOLFS
12 system. Is that how it works?
13 A. It does and then it goes into BMS.
14 Q. And WOLFS is the state accounting system and
15 WOLFS is an abbreviation for that. And so your people are
16 the ones over at the Department of Education who enter the
17 data into the WOLFS system; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And there's a little data entry line on the
20 screen that asks what the payment is for; is that correct?
21 A. I don't recall what's on the screen, but I'm
22 assuming that's probably true.
23 Q. And your people entered the data on the first
24 Carroll report that said T2T and SpLit and 3+8; is that
25 correct?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1103
1 A. Would you ask -- would you repeat your question?
2 Q. Your people entered the data into the WOLFS
3 system --
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. -- that said T2T and SpLit and 3+8; is that
6 correct?
7 A. Mr. Lubnau, so -- I will clarify. So, yes, a
8 secretary would be there. They may receive a contract, and
9 it may have professional development, and they go, oh,
10 that's T2T, not knowing that it's professional development.
11 T2T is a delivery program. A secretary may not know and
12 obviously struggled with that. So we had some confusion.
13 Q. And in 2011 do you know how those amounts were
14 coded?
15 A. We knew that we had some issues with entry, and I
16 don't know exactly the details of all the specifics.
17 Q. And you thought professional development was less
18 confusing than the T2T and SpLit. Is that what you just
19 testified to?
20 A. Mr. Lubnau, Speaker Lubnau, professional
21 development -- 3+8 is, you know, part of professional
22 development, so is SpLit, so is Gear Up or, excuse me, ACT,
23 there are a number of different professional developments.
24 And when you have a contractor who is being entered into
25 the -- and their costs are being entered into the WOLFS, it
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1104
1 should be coded as professional development versus getting
2 into acronyms that we share about those particular
3 professional developments.
4 For instance -- well, I think that's enough.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Could you read my last
6 question. I don't know if the question I asked and the
7 question you answered are the same thing, but maybe it's a
8 communication thing on my part.
9 THE WITNESS: I'm sure it's mine,
10 Mr. Speaker. I'm pretty tired.
11 (The question was read back.)
12 A. I wanted to be accurate. If someone's contract
13 is being entered by a secretary and it's professional
14 development and it may not be 3+8 or it may not be T2T, or
15 it may be T2T being a delivery system, the secretaries
16 didn't know. Professional development is what we're doing.
17 They didn't have enough information to know what
18 specifically it is or is not, and so there were errors
19 being made, and we needed clarity. We needed to make
20 certain that professional development, if that's what it
21 was -- and I don't know. I'd have to look at a contract to
22 give you an example. If a contract comes in and it says
23 Tori Lesher is going to be doing X, Y and Z professional
24 development, and so professional development for Tori
25 Lesher did not mention T2T or 3+8 or whatever you wanted,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1105
1 ACT, and said professional development, instead of the
2 secretary interpreting that, oh, it must be T2T he should
3 be writing or she should be writing professional
4 development. We had that going on. We had some issues
5 with entry and so we wanted clarity.
6 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) And so professional
7 development is a less confusing term?
8 A. No. I wanted accuracy.
9 Q. A more accurate term?
10 A. Well, I don't know. You'd have to look and see.
11 If the contract said ACT training and that's what it was,
12 it wasn't professional ACT goods or ACT, whatever it was,
13 then you would want that accurately to be in there, but you
14 would have to read the contract. The secretary would be
15 making the decision.
16 Q. So when --
17 A. It's not about 2 -- excuse me.
18 Q. When the terms SpLit and T2T and 3+8 were removed
19 and professional development was inserted into those
20 reports, that was for the purpose of accuracy; is that
21 right?
22 A. And because I wasn't actually making those
23 changes and I can't remember specifically, yes, I will tell
24 you that accuracy was what we were doing. It had nothing
25 more than in making certain that report was as clear so
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1106
1 that you all would better understand what we were doing.
2 Q. And it was the legislature that you didn't want
3 to confuse; is that correct?
4 A. Or anyone.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Or anyone.
7 Q. Now, there was a budget footnote that
8 Representative Stubson referred to -- I'll read it and you
9 tell me if you think that this is accurate. It's, "Any
10 unexpended, unencumbered, unobligated amounts within WDE
11 general fund and federal fund programs which have been
12 designated by the agency for teacher-to-teacher programs,
13 including any amounts appropriated for these purposes in
14 this act shall be transferred to the education, testing and
15 assessment account created under this footnote." Is that
16 an accurate reading of the budget footnote?
17 A. I don't have it in front of me, but I'm assuming
18 it is. So the answer -- so to answer further? Would you
19 like me to go beyond?
20 Q. I'm just about to ask another question.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. So it is your testimony here today that the
23 purpose for removing teacher to -- T2T and 3+8 and SpLit
24 from the report was not to hide those expenditures from the
25 legislature because of this budget footnote, but instead to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1107
1 be more accurate?
2 A. Yes.
3 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Anyotherquestions?
4 THEWITNESS: Mr.Lubnau,canIjust
5 clarify?
6 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Certainly.
7 SUPERINTENDENTHILL: Let'scallitaday.
8 I'm exhausted.
9 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Anyobjectionsto
10 releasing Superintendent Hill from her subpoena?
11 REPRESENTATIVEGREEAR: She'sreleased.
12 SPEAKERLUBNAU: You'realreadyreleased,
13 I'm sorry. You're not under subpoena.
14 SUPERINTENDENTHILL: Wouldyoulikemeto
15 stay longer, Mr. Speaker?
16 SPEAKERLUBNAU: No.
17 SUPERINTENDENTHILL: Thankyou.
18 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Thankyou,Superintendent
19 Hill.
20 Are there any further witnesses, Counsel?
21 MR.SALZBURG: Therearenot,Mr.Speaker.
22 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Okay. Committee,we're
23 now to that part about what's your pleasure?
24 REPRESENTATIVESTUBSON: Mr.Chairman.
25 SPEAKERLUBNAU: RepresentativeStubson.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1108
1 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: As I recall, the
2 rules talk about the superintendent and actually any
3 interested parties opportunities to submit a list of
4 witnesses along with their expected testimony to the
5 committee to be considered on whether we'll hear those or
6 not, and given that fact, I thought that it might make
7 sense, and I guess I'll state it in the form of a motion,
8 to go ahead and allow the superintendent's office until 5
9 p.m. on Friday to submit that list. I think the rules
10 actually talk about upon completion of testimony, but it
11 would make sense to give some time to do that. So until
12 Friday at 5 p.m. to submit that list and that we would be
13 allowed to adjourn so that we could really chew over the
14 transcript of these hearings, what we've heard over the
15 last three days, have an opportunity to really consider
16 what other witnesses are proposed before we decide what the
17 next steps of this committee are.
18 REPRESENTATIVE BLIKRE: Second.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: It's been moved and
20 seconded. Any discussion? Representative Baker.
21 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Thank you. I would
22 like to offer an amendment to that motion. I would like to
23 see that list by your timeline, but I'd like to see us do
24 an e-mail ballot, and maybe we can set a time frame for
25 that.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1109
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I think, Representative
2 Baker, the way our rules currently read, the chairman has
3 the ability to decide on witnesses, and then the committee
4 can overrule that. I will do that as fast as I can. As
5 you know, I wanted to have this done by the end of
6 September, and I vastly overestimated our ability to do
7 that.
8 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Chairman, point
9 of interest, you asked for a list at the end of testimony
10 and I have one.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay.
12 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: And I thank my staff
13 for their diligence here.
14 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Mr. Chairman, I
15 would still leave the motion as it is. Do you want to
16 have -- think about some additional ones?
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: There's been an amendment.
18 Is that a motion to amend?
19 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Yes, Mr. Chairman,
20 but I'll withdraw it. I would just like to see an e-mail
21 ballot or I guess we're going to get a copy of the whole
22 list, but...
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We'll see what we can do
24 most efficiently. I think if there's some discussion
25 involved or important to going forward that perhaps a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1110
1 conference call might be appropriate, but if we can do it
2 by e-mail ballot, certainly I think that that's an option.
3 And if you'll give me the prerogative, if the motion
4 passes, to make that determination after reviewing this
5 list, I would like that prerogative, but it's up to you.
6 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Absolutely.
7 Mr. Chairman, I think you've done a fine job so far.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. Any further
9 discussion on the motion?
10 You've all heard the motion. All in favor of the
11 motion say aye.
12 (All representatives present
13 indicated "aye.")
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Opposed? The motion
15 carries unanimously. Is there any further business to come
16 before the committee today?
17 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Mr. Chairman.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Patton.
19 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Is it appropriate
20 that we take these home with us, then?
21 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yeah. Yeah, certainly.
22 Any --
23 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Mr. Chairman.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Baker.
25 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: I don't believe we
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1111
1 filled out our vouchers either. Sorry, Mr. Chairman.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. I'll have LSO
3 bring you the vouchers. That would be the other order of
4 thing of business. We'll do that shortly after we adjourn.
5 Anything else to come before the committee?
6 We are adjourned.
7 (Hearing proceedings concluded
8 4:53 p.m., January 8, 2014.)
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 1112
1 CERTIFICATE
2
3 I, ERIC D. NORDBERG, a Registered Professional
4 Reporter, do hereby certify that I reported by machine
5 shorthand the foregoing proceedings contained herein,
6 constituting a full, true and correct transcript.
7 Datedthis14thdayofJanuary,2014.
8
9
10 ERICD.NORDBERG 11 RegisteredProfessionalReporter
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826