1 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 SSS-NBR-USY-PK-PB-SKC-HK-KSK-GSP/1A to 1J/11.00 to 11.40

The House met at eleven of the clock, MR. CHAIRMAN in the Chair.

...

MEMBERS SWORN

Shri Arun Jaitley (Gujarat)

Shrimati Renuka Chowdhury (Andhra Pradesh)

Shri Chiranjeevi Konidala (Andhra Pradesh)

Shri C. M. Ramesh (Andhra Pradesh)

Shri Ananda Bhaskar Rapolu (Andhra Pradesh)

Shri Ali Anwar Ansari (Bihar)

Dr. Mahendra Prasad (Bihar)

Shri Dharmendra Pradhan (Bihar)

Shri Ravi Shankar Prasad (Bihar)

Prof. Anil Kumar Sahani (Bihar)

Shri Bashistha Narain Singh (Bihar)

Shri Bhushan Lal Jangde (Chhatisgarh)

Shri Mansukh L. Mandaviya (Gujarat)

Shri Praveen Rashtrapal (Gujarat)

Shri Shankarbhai N. Vegad (Gujarat) 2 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Shri Shadi Lal Batra ( Haryana )

Shri Jagat Prakash Nadda ( Himachal Pradesh )

Shri Rajeev Chandrasekhar ( Karnataka )

Shri K. Rahman Khan (Karnataka )

Shri Basawaraj Patil (Karnataka )

Shri Rangasayee Ramakrishna (Karnataka )

Shri Satyavrat Chaturvedi (Madhya Pradesh)

Shri Thaawar Chand Gehlot (Madhya Pradesh)

Dr. Najma A. Heptulla (Madhya Pradesh)

Shri Phaggan Singh (Madhya Pradesh)

Shri Kaptan Singh Solanki (Madhya Pradesh)

Shrimati ()

Shri (Maharashtra)

Shri Vilasrao Dagadojira Deshmukh (Maharashtra)

Shri (Maharashtra)

Shri (Maharashtra)

Shri D.P. Tripathi (Maharashtra)

Shri Rabinarayan Mohapatra (Odisha)

Shri A.V. Swamy (Odisha) 3 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Shri Dilip Kumar Tirkey (Odisha)

Shri Narendra Budania (Rajasthan)

Shri Bhupender Yadav (Rajasthan)

Shri Mahendra Singh Mahra (Uttarakhand)

Shri Naresh Agrawal (Uttar Pradesh)

Shri Munquad Ali (Uttar Pradesh)

Shri Arvind Kumar (Uttar Pradesh)

Shrimati Jaya Bachchan (Uttar Pradesh)

Shri Vinay Katiyar (Uttar Pradesh)

Shri Rasheed Masood (Uttar Pradesh)

Km. Mayawati (Uttar Pradesh)

Shri Kiranmay Nanda (Uttar Pradesh)

Chaudhary Munabbar Saleem (Uttar Pradesh)

Shri B. B. Tiwari (Uttar Pradesh)

Shri Darshan Singh Yadav (Uttar Pradesh)

Shri Tapan Kumar Sen (West Bengal)

(Ends)

(Followed by SK/1K)

4 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 SK/1K/11.45

WELCOME TO PARLIAMENTARY DELEGATION FROM FINLAND

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members, I have an announcement to make.

We have with us seated in the Special Box Members of a

Parliamentary delegation from Finland currently on a visit to our country under the distinguished leadership of His Excellency, Mr. Eero

Heinaluoma, Speaker of the Parliament of Finland. On behalf of the

Members of the House and on my own behalf, I take pleasure in extending a hearty welcome to the Leader and other Members of the delegation and wish our distinguished guests an enjoyable and fruitful stay in our country. We hope that during their stay here, they would be able to see and learn more about our Parliamentary system, our country and our people, and that their visit to this country will further strengthen the friendly bonds that exist between and Finland.

Through them, we convey our greetings and best wishes to the

Parliament and the friendly people of Finalnd.

(Ends)

(Followed by YSR-1L)

5 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 -SK/YSR-DS/11.50/1L

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members, on behalf of the whole House and on my own behalf, I congratulate the newly elected and re-elected

Members and extend them a very cordial welcome.

Those who have been re-elected are familiar faces and are well conversant with the procedure, conventions and traditions of this

House. The newly elected Members, who have taken their seats in the

House today for the first time, I am sure, will soon acquire the knowledge of procedures, practices and learn about the conventions of this House. We eagerly look forward to their valuable contribution in making the functioning of parliamentary democracy more effective, people-oriented and purposeful. I have no doubt in my mind that they will work assiduously for enhancing the dignity and prestige of this august House.

I, once again, extend my felicitations to the newly elected and re-elected Members and wish them success.

6 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 OBITUARY REFERENCE

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members, I refer with profound sorrow to the passing away of Shri N.K.P. Salve, a former Member of this House, on the 1st of April 2012, at the age of 91 years.

Born in Chhindwara in Madhya Pradesh in March, 1921, Shri

N.K.P. Salve had his education at the Lucknow University. As a student leader, Shri Salve participated in the freedom struggle.

A chartered accountant by profession, Shri Salve had written extensively on the Law of Direct Taxation. As Chairman of the Joint

Select Committee on the Taxation Laws (Amendment) Bill in 1973, he was responsible for almost re-writing the Income Tax Laws in India.

An avid cricket lover, Shri Salve was elected on the Panel of All

India Umpires in 1943 and had umpired several first-class matches, including the Ranji Trophy and India Commonwealth matches. He was

President of the Vidarbha Cricket Association from 1967 to 1977 and of the Board of Control for Cricket in India from 1982 to 1985. Shri Salve was instrumental in constituting the Asian Cricket Council and served as the first Chairman of that Council from 1983 to 1984. He was also 7 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Chairman of the Indo-Pakistan Joint Management Committee, which organized the Reliance World Cup of 1987 in India and Pakistan.

Shri Salve was equally proficient in Urdu poetry. His annual appearances in Kavi Sammelans and Urdu Poetry Meets in Nagpur were a big hit.

Shri N.K.P. Salve started his legislative career as a Member of

Lok Sabha in 1967. He was a Member of the Fourth and Fifth Lok

Sabha.

Shri Salve represented the State of Maharashtra in this House for four terms from April 1978 to April 1984; from April 1984 to April

1990; from April 1990 to April 1996; and from April 1996 to April 2002.

He served as Union Minister of State in the Ministry of Information and

Broadcasting from 1982 to 1983; in the Ministry of Steel and Mines

(Independent Charge) from 1983 to 1984; and in the Ministry of

Parliamentary Affairs in 1984. He also served as Minister of Power in the Union Council of Ministers from 1993 to 1996. Shri Salve was

Chairman of the Ninth Finance Commission from 1987 to 1990.

(Contd. by VKK/1M)

8 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 -YSR/VKK-MCM/1m/11.55

MR. CHAIRMAN (CONTD.): A man of letters, Shri Salve, had to his credit, publications titled “Is India the Highest Tax Nation” and “The

Story of Reliance Cup”. He also contributed various articles in prestigious journals.

In the passing away of Shri Salve, the country has lost an able administrator, an eminent parliamentarian and an avid cricket lover.

His contributions in the fields of politics and cricket will be remembered for many years to come.

We deeply mourn the passing away of Shri N.K.P. Salve.

I request Members to rise in their places and observe silence as a mark of respect to the memory of the departed.

(Hon. Members then stood in silence for one minute)

MR. CHAIRMAN: Secretary-General will convey to the members of the bereaved family our sense of profound sorrow and deep sympathy.

(Ends)

RE. SUCCESSFUL LAUNCH OF AGNI-V MISSILE

MR. CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, as you are aware, on 19th of

April 2012, India successfully test-fired the nuclear capable 5000- 9 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 kilometre range surface-to-surface Inter Continental Ballistic Missile

Agni-V from Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast. With this, India has joined the elite and exclusive Long-Range Ballistic Missile club of select countries. The credit for this historic achievement undoubtedly goes to our scientific community, particularly those working with

DRDO.

On behalf of the whole House and on my own behalf, I congratulate the scientists and engineers who were associated with this project and have made us feel proud by their remarkable achievement.

(Ends)

RE. NATIONAL PANCHAYATI RAJ DIVAS

MR. CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, today is the National

Panchayati Raj Divas. With the coming into force of the Constitution

(73rd Amendment) Act, 1992 on 24th April 1993, Mahatma Gandhi’s dream of Gram Swaraj concretised into reality on that day. This, indeed, has been an epoch-making measure in our democratic polity.

Gram Swaraj devolves power to the people at the village level seeking to strengthen the very roots of democratic norms in our country. Let 10 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 us on this occasion extend our good wishes to elected representatives of Panchayats and Panchayati Raj Institutions to strengthen the democracy in our country.

(Ends)

RE. RECOGNITION OF LEADER OF OPPOSITION

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have to inform Members that consequent upon his re-election to the with effect from 3rd April 2012, I have accorded recognition to Shri Arun Jaitley, Member and Leader of the

Bharatiya Janata Party in Rajya Sabha, as the Leader of the

Opposition in Rajya Sabha with effect from 3rd April, 2012.

(Ends)

RE. RE-CONSTITUTION OF PANEL OF VICE-CHAIRMEN

MR. CHAIRMAN: I have to inform Members that the Panel of Vice-

Chairmen has been re-constituted with effect from 19th April, 2012, with the following Members:-

Prof. P.J. Kurien

Dr. E.M. Sudarsana Natchiappan

Shri Shanta Kumar

Shri Prasanta Chatterjee 11 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Shri Tariq Anwar

Dr. Mahendra Prasad

(Ends)

(Followed by KR/1n)

KR/HMS/1N/12.00 PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE

SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD: Sir, I lay on the Table — I. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Health and Family Welfare (Department of Health) Notification No. G.S.R. 76 (E), dated the 8th February, 2012, publishing the Drugs and Cosmetics (2nd Amendment) Rules, 2012, under Section 38 of the Drugs and Cosmetics Act, 1940. II. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:— (i) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Lokopriya Gopinath Bordoloi Regional Institute of Mental Health, Tezpur, for the year 2010-11, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts. (b) Review by Government on the working of the above Institute. (c) Statement giving reasons for the delay in laying the papers mentioned at (i) (a) above. (ii) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the National Academy of Medical Sciences (NAMS), New Delhi, for the year 2010- 12 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 11, together with the Auditor’s Report on the Accounts. (b) Review by Government on the working of the above Academy. (c) Statement giving reasons for the delay in laying the papers mentioned at (ii) (a) above. (iii) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the All India Institute of Speech and Hearing (AIISH), Mysore, for the year 2010- 11, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts. (b) Review by Government on the working of the above Institute. (c) Statement giving reasons for the delay in laying the papers mentioned at (iii) (a) above.

(THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF.P.J. KURIEN) IN THE CHAIR)

SHRI JAIRAM RAMESH: Sir on behalf of Shri Praful Patel, I lay on the Table, a copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:— (i) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of India (Ministry of Heavy Industries and Public Enterprises, Department of Heavy Industry) and the Scooters India Limited (SIL), for the year 2012-13. (ii) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of India (Ministry of Heavy Industries & Public Enterprises, Department of Heavy Industry) and Tungabhadra Steel Products Limited (TSPL), for the year 2012-13. (iii) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of India (Ministry of Heavy Industries and Public 13 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Enterprises, Department of Heavy Industry) and the Triveni Structural Limited (TSL), for the year 2012-13. (iv) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of India (Ministry of Heavy Industries & Public Enterprises, Department of Heavy Industry) and the Andrew Yule Group, for the year 2012-13.

SHRI JAIRAM RAMESH: Sir, I lay on the Table, under sub- section (1) of Section 33 of the Mahatma Gandhi National Rural Employment Guarantee Act, 2005, a copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Rural Development (Department of Rural Development) Notification No. G.S.R. 27 (E), dated the 17th January, 2012, publishing the National Rural Employment Guarantee Fund (Amendment) Rules, 2011.

SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARAJAN: Sir, I lay on the Table — I.(1) A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-section (1) of Section 619 A of the Companies Act, 1956: — (i) (a) Thirty-seventh Annual Report and Accounts of the West Bengal Forest Development Corporation Limited (WBFDCL), Kolkata, for the year 2010-11, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon. (b) Review by Government on the working of the above Corporation. (ii) (a) Thirty-fourth Annual Report and Accounts of Andaman & Nicobar Islands Forest & Plantation Development 14 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Corporation Limited, Port Blair, for the year 2010-11, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts and the comments of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India thereon. (b) Review by Government on the working of the above Corporation. (2) Statements (in English and Hindi) giving reasons for the delay in laying the papers mentioned at (1) above. II. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:— (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the G.B. Pant Institute of Himalayan Environment and Development, Almora, Uttarakhand, for the year 2009-10, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts. (b) Review by Government on the working of the above Institute. (c) Statement giving reasons for the delay in laying the papers mentioned at (a) above.

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, I lay on the Table, under sub-section (4) of Section 19 of the Banking Companies (Acquisition and Transfer of Undertakings) Act, 1970, a copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Finance (Department of Financial Services) Notification No. 1/2010, dated the 6th January 2011, publishing the United Bank of India (Officers') Service (Amendment) Regulations, 2010, along with delay statement.

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, I lay on the Table, a copy each (in English and 15 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012

Hindi) of the following Notifications of the Ministry of Finance (Department of Revenue), under Section 159 of the Customs Act, 1962, along with Explanatory Memoranda:— S.O. 2684 (E), dated the 28th November, 2011, regarding exchange rate of conversion of foreign currency into Indian currency or vice-versa for the purpose of assessment of imported and exported goods. S.O. 2723 (E), dated the 30th November, 2011, amending Notification No. S.O. 748 (E), dated the 3rd August, 2001, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification. S.O. 2798 (E), dated the 15th December, 2011, amending Notification No. S.O. 748 (E), dated the 3rd August, 2001, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification. S.O. 2914 (E), dated the 28th December, 2011, regarding exchange rate of conversion of foreign currency into Indian currency or vice-versa for the purpose of assessment of imported and exported goods. S.O. 2926 (E), dated the 30th December, 2011, amending Notification No. S.O. 748 (E), dated the 3rd August, 2001, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification. S.O. 69 (E), dated the 13th January, 2012, amending Notification No. S.O. 748 (E), dated the 3rd August, 2001, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification. S.O. 72 (E), dated the 16th January, 2012, amending Notification No. S.O. 748 (E), dated the 3rd August, 2001, to insert certain entries in the original Notification. 16 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 S.O. 81 (E), dated the 17th January, 2012, amending Notification No. S.O. 748 (E), dated the 3rd August, 2001, to insert certain entries in the original Notification. S.O. 189 (E), dated the 30th January, 2012, regarding exchange rate of conversion of foreign currency into Indian currency or vice-versa for the purpose of assessment of imported and exported goods. S.O. 201 (E), dated the 31st January, 2012, amending Notification No. S.O. 748 (E), dated the 3rd August, 2001, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification. S.O. 291 (E), dated the 15th February, 2012, amending Notification No. S.O. 748 (E), dated the 3rd August, 2001, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification. G.S.R. 838 (E), dated the 25th November, 2011, publishing the Bill of Entry (Electronic Declaration) Regulations, 2011. G.S.R. 839 (E), dated the 25th November, 2011, publishing the Shipping Bill (Electronic Declaration) Regulations, 2011. G.S.R. 840 (E), dated the 25th November, 2011, publishing the Customs (Provisional Duty Assessment) Regulations, 2011. G.S.R. 127 (E), dated the 9th March, 2012, amending Notification No. G.S.R. 674 (E), dated the 14th September, 2009, to substitute certain entries in the original Notification. G.S.R. 774 (E), dated the 21st September, 2010, 17 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 amending Notification No. G.S.R. 289 (E), dated the 28th April, 1999 to add certain entries in the original Notification. II. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Notifications of the Ministry of Finance (Department of Revenue), under sub- section (2) of section 38 of the Central Excise Act, 1944, along with Explanatory Memoranda:- G.S.R. 138 (E), dated the 12th March, 2012, publishing the CENVAT Credit (Second Amendment) Rules, 2012. G.S.R. 139 (E), dated the 12th March, 2012, publishing the Central Excise (First Amendment) Rules, 2012. G.S.R. 140 (E), dated the 12th March, 2012, specifying the procedure for imposition of restrictions and withdrawal of facilities from manufacturer, dealer or exporter prima facie involved in specified offences. G.S.R. 916 (E), dated the 30th December, 2011, amending Notification No. G.S.R. 541 (E), dated the 18th July, 2011, to insert certain entries in the original Notification. G.S.R. 917 (E), dated the 30th December, 2011, publishing the Central Excise (Fifth Amendment) Rules, 2011. G.S.R. 918 (E), dated the 30th December, 2011, appointing Specified Custom Officers as Central Excise Officers in relation to Service Tax Refunds. G.S.R. 100 (E), dated the 22nd February, 2012, amending Notification No. G.S.R. 572 (E), dated the 6th September, 2004, to substitute certain entries in the 18 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 original Notification. G.S.R. 142 (E), dated the 13 March, 2012, authorizing the Members (Central Excise), Central Board of Excise and Customs to impose restrictions and withdraw certain facilities from a manufacturer, dealer or exporter involved in specified offences. III. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Notifications of the Ministry of Finance (Department of Revenue), under Section 296 of the Income Tax Act, 1961, along with Explanatory Memoranda:— S.O. 2724 (E), dated the 1st December, 2011, publishing the Income-Tax (9th Amendment) Rules, 2011. S.O. 5 (E), dated the 2nd January, 2012, publishing the Income-Tax (First Amendment) Rules, 2011. S.O. 16 (E), dated the 4th January, 2012, publishing the Centralised Processing of Returns Scheme, 2011. S.O. 17 (E), dated the 4th January, 2012, giving effect to the Centralised Processing of Returns Scheme, 2011.

SHRI S. GANDHISELVAN: Sir, I lay on the Table — I. A copy (in English and Hindi) of the Ministry of Health and Family Welfare (Department of AYUSH) Notification No. G.S.R. 151 (E), dated the 15th March, 2012, publishing the Indian Medicine Central Council (Election) Amendment Rules, 2012, under Section 25 of the Indian Medicine Central Council Act, 1970. II. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:— (i) (a) Annual Report of the Central Council for Research in 19 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Ayurveda and Siddha, New Delhi, for the year 2010-11. (b) Annual Accounts of the Central Council for Research in Ayurveda and Siddha, New Delhi, for the year 2010-11, and the Audit Report thereon. (c) Review by Government on the working of the above Council. (d) Statements giving reasons for the delay in laying the papers mentioned at (i) (a) and (b) above. (ii) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Central Council for Research in Unani Medicine, New Delhi, for the year 2010-11, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts. (b) Review by Government on the working of the above Council. (c) Statement giving reasons for the delay in laying the papers mentioned at (ii) (a) above. (iii) (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Central Council for Research in Homoeopathy (CCRH), New Delhi, for the year 2010-11, together with the Auditor’s Report on the Accounts. (b) Review by Government on the working of the above Council. (c) Statement giving reasons for delay in laying the paper mentioned at (iii) (a) above. (iv) (a) Twentieth Annual Report and Accounts of the Rashtriya Ayurveda Vidyapeeth (RAV), New Delhi, for the year 20 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 2010-11, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts. (b) Review by Government on the working of the above Vidyapeeth. (c) Statement giving reasons for delay in laying the papers mentioned at (iv) (a) above.

SHRI R.P.N. SINGH: Sir, I lay on the Table— I.(1) A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers, under sub-clause (4) of Clause 26 of the Rajiv Gandhi Institute of Petroleum Technology Act, 2007:— (a) Annual Report and Accounts of the Rajiv Gandhi Institute of Petroleum Technology (RGIPT), Rae Bareli, for the year 2010-11, together with the Auditor's Report on the Accounts. (b) Review by the Government on the working of the above institute. (2) Statement (in English and Hindi) giving reasons for delay in the laying the papers mentioned at (1) above. II. A copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following papers:— (i) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of India (Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas) and Engineers India Limited (EIL), for the year 2012-13. (ii) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of India (Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas) and M/s Biecco Lawrie Limited, for the year 2012-13. (iii) Memorandum of Understanding between the Government 21 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 of India (Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas) and the Gas Authority of India Limited (GAIL), for the year 2012- 13.

SHRI NAMO NARAIN MEENA: Sir, I lay on the Table, under clause (1) of article 151 of the Constitution, a copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Reports:— Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (No.1 of 2011-12): Accounts of Union Government: Union Government Finance Accounts and Appropriation Accounts (Civil, Postal Services, Defence Services) for the year ended 2010-11; and Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (No.27 of 2011-12): Union Government – Department of Revenue (Direct Taxes);

REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON EXTERNAL AFFAIRS SHRI H.K. DUA (NOMINATED): Sir, I lay on the Table, a copy (in

English and Hindi) of the Twelfth Report of the Department-related

Parliamentary Standing Committee on External Affairs on Action Taken by the Government on the recommendations contained in the Ninth

Report (Fifteenth Lok Sabha) on ‘Demands for Grants (2011-12)’ of the Ministry of Overseas Indian Affairs. 22 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 REPORTS OF THE DEPARTMENT-RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE

SHRI SATISH CHANDRA MISRA (UTTAR PRADESH): Sir, I lay on the Table, a copy each (in English and Hindi) of the following Reports of the Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Finance (2011-12):— Fifty-first Report on ‘Demands for Grants (2012-13)’ of the Ministry of Finance (Departments of Economic Affairs, Expenditure, Financial Services and Disinvestment); Fifty-second Report on ‘Demands for Grants (2012-13)’ of the Ministry of Finance (Department of Revenue); Fifty-third Report on ‘Demands for Grants (2012-13)’ of the Ministry of Planning; Fifty-fourth Report on ‘Demands for Grants (2012-13)’ of the Ministry of Statistics and Programme Implementation; and Fifty-fifth Report on ‘Demands for Grants (2012-13)’ of the Ministry of Corporate Affairs.

STATEMENT RE. IMPLEMENTATION OF TWENTIETH REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENT-RELATED PARLIAMENTARY STANDING COMMITTEE ON RURAL DEVELOPMENT THE MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND MINISTER OF

DRINKING WATER AND SANITATION (SHRI JAIRAM RAMESH):

Sir, I make a statement regarding Status of implementation of 23 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 recommendations contained in the Twentieth Report of the

Department-related Parliamentary Standing Committee on Rural

Development, pertaining to the Demands for Grants (2011-12) of the

Department of Rural Development, Ministry of Rural Development.

MATTERS RAISED WITH PERMISSION OF CHAIR

RE. NEED TO PROCURE MILK BY MILK COOPERATIVES FROM MILK PRODUCING FARMERS

ी राम कृ पाल यादव (िबहार) : उपसभाध्यक्ष महोदय, म दुग्ध उत्पादक की

समयाओं के बारे म सदन का ध्यान आकिर्षत करना चाहता हूं।

महोदय, लगातार कई िदन से दुग्ध उत्पादक बड़ी सख्यां म धरने पर बठै े

हुए ह और भखू हड़ताल पर ह। महोदय, आज महंगाई के कारण उनके िलए

दुग्ध उत्पादन एक गंभीर समया बन गयी है, लेिकन सरकार उनकी समयाओं

की ओर ध्यान नहीं दे रही है। उनकी मागं है िक उन्ह िबचौिलय से मुि िमले,

कोऑपरेिटव सीधे उनसे दूध ल तािक बीच के मािर्जन का लाभ उन्ह िमले, और

"फै ट फॉमर्ूला" तकर् सगतं हो, आिद। महोदय आज की तात्कािलक यवथा म

बड़े पैमाने पर घोटाला भी नजर आता है।

महोदय, आज सभी चीज के दाम बढ़ रहे ह और दुग्ध उत्पादक भी

महंगाई की मार से पीिड़त ह जबिक हमारी अथर्-यवथा िकसान की अथर्- 24 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 यवथा को सुदृढ़ करने की रही है। हालत यह है िक आज सभी वतुओं की

कीमत बढ़ रही ह िजससे दुग्ध उत्पादक को अपनी लागत का भगतानु भी नहीं

िमल पा रहा है। आज उनके िलए इतनी भयावह िथित पदाै होगयी है िक दुग्ध

उत्पादक गुसे म अपना दूध बेचने के बजाय सड़क पर फ कने को मजबूर ह।

यही नहीं वतर्मान यवथा के चलते िबचौिलय को फायदा पहुंचाया जा रहा है।

इसिलए म आपके माध्यम से सरकार का ध्यान आकिर्षत करना चाहता हूं िक

दुग्ध उत्पादक का यह आंदोलन कहीं और िवतृत रूप न ले ले और एक िदन ये

दुग्ध उत्पादक पूरी िदली की दूध सलाई को ठप न कर द। इसिलए मेरा

सरकार से िनवेदन है िक पूरे देश के दुग्ध उत्पादक की भावनाओं को देखते हुए

वह अिवलब कोई ठोस कायवाहीर् करे...।

(1 ओ/के एलजी पर जारी)

1O/KLG-TMV/12.05

ी राम कृ पाल यादव (कर्मागत): तािक उनका जो शोषण और दोहन हो रहा है,

उनके साथ जो ज्यादती हो रही है, उनके साथ जो भेदभाव बरता जा रहा है,

उसे रोका जा सके और जो उनको उनकी कमाई का उिचत हक नहीं िमल रहा

है, वह उनको िमल सके ।

उपसभाध्यक्ष महोदय, बड़े पैमाने पर िबचौिलय के माध्यम से उनका

शोषण और दोहन हो रहा है, उनको सही पैसा नहीं िमल रहा है, जो उनको सीधे

तौर पर िमले। इसिलए, म आपके माध्यम से सरकार का ध्यान आकिर्षत कर रहा 25 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 हूंॅ िक अिवलंब सरकार इस िवषय म कोई ठोस उपाय करे और जंतर मंतर पर

जो दुग्ध उत्पादक बड़े आकर्ोश और गुसे म धरने और भखू -हड़ताल पर बैठे ह,

सरकार उनके िलए ठोस उपाय करके समाधान िनकालने का काम करे।

धन्यवाद,सर।

(समात)

उपसभाध्यक्ष (ो. पी. जे. कु िरयन): धन् यवाद। ...(यवधान).. Shri Narendra

Kumar Kashyap to associate. He is not there. Dr. T.N. Seema.

(Interruptions)...

ी पुरूषोम खोडाभाई रूपाला: सर, देश का कपास उत्पादन करने वाला

िकसान लुटा जा रहा है। ..(यवधान)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Please. (Interruptions)... No, Mr. Khan.

(Interruptions)... I didn’t allow you. (Interruptions)... You please sit down. (Interruptions)...

ी पुरूषोम खोडाभाई रूपाला: सर, देश का िकसान लुटा जा रहा है और

हमको बोलने का व नहीं िमल रहा है।

उपसभाध्यक्ष : आप कल नोिटस दीिजए।

ी पुरूषोम खोडाभाई रूपाला: देश का िकसान, कॉटन बेचने वाला िकसान

लुटा जा रहा है और कोई सुनने वाला नहीं है। 26 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 उपसभाध्यक्ष(ो. पी. जे. कु िरयन): ठीक है, आप कल नोिटस दीिजए।

...(यवधान).. आप कल नोिटस दीिजए।..(यवधान)

ी पुरूषोम खोडाभाई रूपाला: सर, आप सुन लीिजए, हम अवसर द।

...(यवधान)

उपसभाध्यक्ष: आपको कल अवसर िमलेगा। आप बैिठए। ...(यवधान)

ी पुरूषोम खोडाभाई रूपाला: सर, देश का पूरा िकसान लुटा जा रहा है।

उसके कपास को कोई सही भाव पर लेने वाला नहीं है।

उपसभाध्यक्ष: कल नोिटस दीिजए।

ी पुरूषोम खोडाभाई रूपाला: सर, नोिटस िदया हुआ है।

उपसभाध्यक्ष: कल दे दो, कल मौका िमलेगा। ..(यवधान)

ी पुरूषोम खोडाभाई रूपाला: सर,जो नोिटस लेना है, उसकी जगह कपास

लेने की बात करो। ...(यवधान)...

उपसभाध्यक्ष: हो गया, बिठए।ै

ी पुरूषोम खोडाभाई रूपाला: सदन के माध्यम से िवनती है िक िंहदुतान

का िकसान लुटा जा रहा है, उसकी बात रखने का अवसर तो दो।

उपसभाध्यक्ष: सुिनए, आप कल नोिटस दीिजए। आपको अवसर िमलेगा।

ी पुरूषोम खोडाभाई रूपाला: मन े नोिटस िदया है, सर।

उपसभाध्यक्ष : कल करो, चेयरमनै साहब से िमलो। ..(यवधान)... आपको

रूल मालमू ही है, आपने नोिटस दस बजे से पहले नहीं 27 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 िदया। ...(यवधान)... लीज, आपने नोिटस दस बजे से पहले

नहीं िदया। कल दस बजे से पहले नोिटस दीिजए।..(यवधान).. Please.

That is enough. (Interruptions)... Now you please sit down.

(Interruptions)... Don’t do it. (Interruptions)... That is enough.

(Interruptions)...आप बिठएै , आप बिठएै , लीज।

ी पुरूषोम खोडाभाई रूपाला: सर, आप सुिनए, कु छ किरए। ..(यवधान)

उपसभाध्यक्ष (ो. पी. जे. कु िरयन): यह अच्छी बात नहीं है, यह बुरी बात है।

आप बिठए।ै ..(यवधान)... आप समय पर नोिटस िदया

कीिजए।..(यवधान)... लीज। ...(यवधान).. माया जी, लीज, उनसे

बोिलए। ..(यवधान)...आप बिठए।ै

ी पुरूषोम खोडाभाई रूपाला: सर, सारे देश का िकसान परेशान है।

उपसभाध्यक्ष: कल नोिटस दीिजए। आज समय पर नहीं िदया, इसिलए नहीं है।

कल दीिजए। डा0 सीमा।

ी राम कृ पाल यादव: सर, महत्वपूणर् िवषय मन े उठाया, उसका जवाब

..(यवधान)

उपसभाध्यक्ष: यह गलत बात है। महत्वपूण र् है...(यवधान).. आप बिठए।ै

ी राम कृ पाल यादव: सर, सरकार का ध्यान ...(यवधान)..

उपसभाध्यक्ष: आपको अवसर िमला, िफर भी बात करते ह। आप बिठएै

..(यवधान) .. 28 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 संसदीय काय र् मंतर्ालय म राज्य मंतर्ी (ी राजीव शु): आपकी बात म सरकार

तक पहुंचा दंूगा।...(यवधान)

उपसभाध्यक्ष (ो. पी. जे. कु िरयन): बिठएै , बिठए।ै ..(यवधान)..No, sit down.

(Interruptions)... Dr. T.N.Seema. (Interruptions)... Don’t waste time, please. (Interruptions)...

RE. ADVERTISEMENT OF A COSMETIC PRODUCT ALLEGEDLY DEMEANING AND DEROGATORY TO WOMEN

DR. T.N. SEEMA (KERALA): Sir, I would like to draw the attention of this august House to an internet and TV advertisement of a cosmetic product called “Clean and Dry Intimate Wash”. It is sponsored by an

Indian company under the brand name ‘Midas Care’. This advertisement shows graphic and intimate details of a woman’s body which is demeaning and derogatory to women. The visual depiction clearly shows the perversion of the company. By claiming to provide

‘freshness + fairness’, it also promotes racist stereotypes equating fairness with beauty.

The advertisement constitutes an offence under the Indecent

Representation of Women Act, Indian Penal Code and Information

Technology Act, 2000. Women’s organisations like AIDWA have 29 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 demanded intervention by the hon. Minister of Information and

Broadcasting and appropriate action against the advertisers and the concerned company. But till date no action has been taken by the

Government in this regard.

Sir, once the commercial ad catches public attention, it will run for a few weeks before any action is taken and they will quietly withdraw the ad. No legal action is pursued by the concerned authorities. Provisions in the existing laws are not adequate to tackle the cyber crimes against women.

Advertisements, commercials and even TV serials portray women in a derogatory manner. It is known that the Ministry of

Information and Broadcasting has set up a Monitoring Committee to screen them. Repetition of such incidents shows this mechanism is not at all effective.

Sir, this House should condemn this indecent advertisement and demand strict action against the culprits. Thank you.

(Ends)

(Followed by 1P/VK)

30 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 NB/VK/1P/12.10

RE. PAK OCCUPIED KASHMIR BEING TAUGHT AS AZAD KASHMIR IN TEXT BOOKS OF SOME ARMY PUBLIC SCHOOLS OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR ी भात झा (मध्य देश) : उपसभाध्यक्ष जी, म िजस मसले की ओर सदन का ध्यान

आकिर्षत करना चाहता हूं, वह बहुत गभीरं है। जम-ू कमीर राज्य के कु छ क्षेतर् म

CBSE की तीसरी कक्षा की िकताब म PoK को आजाद कमीर बताया जा रहा

है और िगलिगट-बािलतान को उरी क्षेतर् बताया जा रहा है। यह मामला 3

िदन से बहुत जोर पकड़ रहा है। हम यह जानना चाहते ह िक िकसकी यह

िहमत हुई िक उसने यह बात उस िकताब म िलखी और िलखने के बाद उसम

सशोधनं हुआ या नहीं हुआ, िकसी ने इसकी जाचं की या नहीं की? क्या यह मान

िलया जाए िक पाक अिधकृ त कमीर, आजाद कमीर हो चुका है? भारत का

वह कौन सा काशक है, िजसने इस िकताब को कािशत िकया है? भारत का

मानव संसाधन मंतर्ालय क्या कर रहा था? भारत की िशक्षा को देखने वाले क्या

कर रहे थे? हमारे दोन सदन ने सामूिहक सकपं पािरत िकया है िक पाक

अिधकृ त कमीर भारत का अिवभाज्य अंग है और उसे हम कभी आजाद कमीर

का दजार् नहीं दगे, उसके बाद यह िहमत िकसने जुटाई है, यह हम जानना

चाहते ह? आमीर् कू ल की CBSE की तीसरी कक्षा की एक िकताब म पाक

अिधकृ त कमीर को आजाद कमीर बताया गया। िकताब म PoK का एक नक्शा

िदखाया गया है। यह कहा जा रहा है िक यह िनजी काशक ारा कािशत

पुतक है। आप Google पर चले जाइए, वहा ं जो नक्शा िदखाया जाता 31 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 है, वह अमरीका, चीन आिद सभी जगह पर जाता है, Google म

भारत के नक्शे म PoK का िहसा ही गायब कर िदया गया है। यह बात म

इसिलए यहा ं रख रहा हूं िक यह बहुत गभीरं मामला है। हाल ही म Google

Insight for search म भारत के नक्शे म PoK का िहसा ही गायब कर िदया

गया। यह कौन करता है, यह िकसकी िहमत है? क्या भारत सरकार इसके

िलए िजमेदार नहीं है? क्या भारत सरकार यह मानने के िलए तैयार हो गई है

िक वह आजाद कमीर हो गया है? यह िकतनी बड़ी बात है िक अब हमारे syllabus म यह पढ़ाया जाएगा िक कमीर, िजसके िलए हम रात-िदन लड़ाई

लड़ रहे ह, ससदं के दोन सदन म ताव पािरत होता है, उसके बाद भी अगर

यह बात आती है, तो मुझे लगता है िक भारत सरकार को पूरी िजमेदारी से

इसका जवाब देना चािहए िक CBSE की तीसरी कक्षा की पुतक म यह बात

कै से आई तथा Google Insights for Search म यह नक्शा कै से आता है, िजसमें

भारत का अिवभाज्य अंग कमीर िजस पर एक-एक बच्चा खड़ा हो सकता है,

120 करोड़ की आबादी एक वर से कहती है िक कमीर हमारा अिवभाज्य अंग

है, उसको इस सािजश के तहत कै से आजाद कमीर कहा जाता है? म जानना

चाहता हूं िक क्या भारत सरकार अपनी िजमेदारी से मुकर जाएगी, क्या भारत

सरकार इस बात का जवाब नहीं देगी, क्या उस िकताब को cease नहीं िकया

जाएगा, क्या आने वाली पीढ़ी को यही पढ़ाया जाएगा? हम इस शमर्नाक घटना

की िंनदा करते ह। यह हमारा कठोर ण है िक जमू-कमीर भारत का 32 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 अिवभाज्य अंग है और दोन सदन ने जो सकपं दोहराया है, उस पर भारत

सरकार अमल करे और ऐसी िकताब को तत्काल cease करे, यह मेरा िनवदने

है।

(समात)

ी रघुनन्दन शमार् (मध्य देश) : सर, म अपने को इस िवषय से सब करता

हूं।

ी कान िंसह सोलंकी (मध्य देश) : सर, म अपने को इस िवषय से सब

करता हूं।

ी रिव शंकर साद (िबहार) : सर, म अपने को इस िवषय से सब करता हूं।

(समात)

RE. REPORTED STATEMENT BY ADDITIONAL SOLICITOR GENERAL IN THE SUPREME COURT IN RELATION TO KILLING OF TWO FISHERMEN BY ITALIAN SHIP

SHRI BALBIR PUNJ (ODISHA): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I raise this matter with great sadness and regret. On 15th of February, suddenly firing started from the Italian Ship, Enrica Lexie, which was there in the Indian waters and two of our poor fishermen were killed. The

Indian State acted with restraint. It acted the way any sovereign 33 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 country should act; it acted the way any self-respecting State should act. Two people, who had fired from the Italian ship on the innocent fishermen, had been arrested. As per law, the State of Kerala started a legal process against them. Sir, the entire country, obviously, sympathised with these two dead fishermen and also wanted a strict action against the two guilty marines, as per law. There was absolutely no difference of opinion between the Central Government, the State Government and the public opinion within the country.

(Contd. By 1Q)

RG/SC/12.15/1Q

SHRI BALBIR PUNJ (contd.): Now, suddenly, last Friday, you had the Additional Solicitor General, the Law officer of the Government of

India, Shri Harin Raval, and I quote what he told the hon. Supreme

Court. The first thing that he said was, “The Italian oil tanker, Enrica

Lexie, was not in the Indian waters when the shooting incident occurred.” This means that whatsoever the State of Kerala has done so far is illegal. And, secondly, he said, “The State had no jurisdiction to even file an FIR against the Italian marines involved in the killing of two people.” Sir, he is the Law Officer of the Government of India. 34 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Later on, when the Shipping Minister, Shri G.K. Vasan, was asked, he said, “The incident happened in Indian waters and, therefore, India has the legal competence and the right to try the case under the law.”

The External Affairs Minister, Shri S.M. Krishna, has also been shocked by this incident, and he also said that he was not consulted before the Additional Solicitor General took the stand in the Court.

Now, Sir, this entire sad episode, sordid episode, gives rise to three or four very important questions. Firstly, under whose order did the

Additional Solicitor General act in the Supreme Court?

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Your time is over...(Interruptions) It is not going on record...(Interruptions) The time is over. What can I do? Now, Shri D. Raja...(Interruptions)

SHRI RAVI SHANKAR PRASAD: He was acting against the interests of the Government of India in the Supreme Court...(Interruptions)

We demand that he is sacked immediately...(Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Yes, your time is over. Now, Shri D.

Raja...(Interruptions)

SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDY: Sir, the Government has to respond. It is a very important issue. Your State, Kerala, is 35 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 involved...(Interruptions) It is a serious matter. The Government has to respond...(Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Yes, you have all made your point. That is all...(Interruptions) It is Zero

Hour...(Interruptions) There is no Law Minister, External Affairs

Minister or the Shipping Minister here now...(Interruptions) You have made your point. It is on record. It will come to the notice of the

Government...(Interruptions) That is enough. That is the procedure...(Interruptions) Please, let us proceed...(Interruptions)

You have made your point. It is on record. The Government will take note of it...(Interruptions)

SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDY: It is a matter relating to poor fishermen. It is a very serious matter...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I agree that it is a serious matter. I am not saying that it is not serious. But, please,...(Interruptions) I cannot ask the Government...(Interruptions) I cannot direct the

Government. It is up to them to react...(Interruptions) You know that...(Interruptions)

ी काश जावडेकर : िकसकी वकालत कर रहे ह? ..(यवधान).. 36 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 ी थावर चन्द गहलोत : व े सदन म जवाब द। ..(यवधान).. आप सरकार को

िनदश दीिजए। यह बहुत गंभीर िवषय है।..(यवधान)..

ी रिव शंकर साद : व े भारत सरकार के वकील ह..(यवधान)..

ी काश जावडेकर : व े भारत सरकार के वकील ह या उनके वकील

ह?..(यवधान)..

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN) : The Minister wants to say something.

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY

AFFAIRS (SHRI RAJEEV SHUKLA): Sir, I have understood the feelings of the Members, of the agitated Members. I will, definitely, convey them to the hon. Minister of Shipping and the hon. External

Affairs Minister.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: That is over now. Please take your seat...(Interruptions) Shri D. Raja.

(Ends)

(Followed by 1R) 37 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 1r/12:20/ks

RE. DEMAND TO SECURE IMMEDIATE RELEASE OF ABDUCTED COLLECTOR OF SUKMA DISTRICT IN CHHATTISGARH

SHRI D. RAJA (TAMIL NADU): Sir, I draw the attention of the

Government to the kidnapping of Mr. Alex Paul Menon. Mr. Alex Paul

Menon is one of the courageous, committed and dedicated bureaucrats. He was the Collector of the Sukma district of the State of Chhattisgarh. Sir, he has been abducted by the Maoists. It is a very agonizing and traumatic experience for his entire family. He hails from the Tirunelveli district in Tamil Nadu and he has been serving in the State of Chhattisgarh. He has been abducted by the Maoists. I condemn the kidnapping of Mr. Alex Paul Menon by the Maoists. I urge upon the Maoists to release him without any further delay, and without putting any conditions before the Government. At the same time, I urge upon the Union Government and the State Government to work in close coordination to initiate meaningful steps to secure his release. 38 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Sir, I have raised this issue in the State of Chhattisgarh. There was a time when a non-State player, the Salwa Judam, was encouraged and because of that the tribal people had suffered a great deal. In fact, many of our Party comrades are in prison. They are facing baseless cases. I met the Chief Minister. I have brought this to the notice of the Home Minister and the Prime Minister. All those innocent activists amongst the tribal people must be released. Now, the Maoists have adopted a disastrous course of kidnapping the bureaucrats, the Collectors, and putting conditions before the

Government. Here, I urge upon the Government that, instead of sending more Forces into areas where Naxals are dominating, it should come forward and have meaningful dialogue and talks. The

Government should also engage political parties in the State and at the national level to initiate meaningful dialogue and talks and get these bureaucrats released immediately. The Government should understand the agony of the people. The whole nation is agitated.

This kidnapping has haunted the conscience of the whole nation. It is a serious issue, Sir. The other day it happened in Odisha where an 39 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 elected representative of the State Assembly had been kidnapped and he is yet to be released.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): Your time is over.

SHRI D. RAJA: This is a serious matter.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Your time is over.

SHRI D. RAJA: I would like to know what Government is going to do...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Your time is over. It won't go on record.

That is the point. (Interruptions) Okay. (Interruptions) That's all.

(Interruptions) It won't go on record. After three minutes, it won't go on record.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, ...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: All right. But you can only associate.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: I will only associate. Just two minutes, Sir.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: No two minutes.

DR. V. MAITREYAN (TAMIL NADU): The Collector of Sukma district in the State of Chhattisgarh, Mr. Alex Paul Menon, was abducted on

21st of April, 2012...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You just associate. 40 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 DR. V. MAITREYAN: ...while he was on an official inspection in a remote village bordering the adjoining State of Odisha.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Only associate, please.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: The abducted officer is from Tirunelveli in Tamil

Nadu. His family members are very much worried about the safety of the officer.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: That's enough.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: The officer is not in good health. The hon. Chief

Minister of Tamil Nadu had written to the hon. Prime Minister of India in this regard.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I have not given you the floor to speak. You can only associate.

DR. V. MAITREYAN: On behalf of everybody present in the House, I strongly urge the Government of India to coordinate with the State

Government of Chhattisgarh to see to it that immediate release of the concerned officer is ensured.

(Ends)

SHRI TIRUCHI SIVA: Sir... 41 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): No, please. Your name is not there. You may associate.

SHRI TIRUCHI SIVA: Sir, I associate myself with what has been mentioned.

(Ends)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Now, Special Mentions. Hon. Members can lay them on the Table. Dr. Gyan Prakash Pilania.

DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA: Sir, I would like to state that Special

Mention means a 'mention'. You would agree, Sir, that Members would like to put their views across to all the Members present here.

The Chair must permit everyone to do so. It may take some time but it would be worthwhile. But, I would abide by whatever you say, Sir.

You are in the Chair.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I am guided by the House. Please, go ahead.

(fd. at 1s/kgg)

42 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Kgg/1s/12.25

SPECIAL MENTIONS

CONCERN OVER CHILD AND MOTHER MORTALITY RATES IN INDIA BEING HIGHEST IN WORLD

DR. GYAN PRAKASH PILANIA (RAJASTHAN): Sir, it is horrendous to note that in India, of the total children born in one year, a mind boggling 13 lakh die before they reach their first birthday, most of them within a few weeks of entering this world. Every year, over 16 lakhs children under 5 years die. Infant mortality rate per 1000 live births is

50, under-5, it is 63, which is too high. Our neighbours, though poorer, have done better with IMR of 48 in Nepal and 52 in

Bangladesh. In China, it is just 19. Most infant deaths occur in the first few weeks because, again, health facilities and doctors are not easily available or their cost is too much. In rural areas, the infant mortality is

55 while in the urban areas it is much less at 34.

Over 55,000 women die due to child birth in India every year. In terms of per lakh live births, for India, maternal mortality rate works out to 212. In highly advanced countries like in Western Europe, it is below 15; and, even in medium human development countries, like in 43 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Russia or Brazil, it is below 133. China has the maternal mortality rate of just 38. These are hair-raising numbers, being the highest in the world mainly because India has the highest number of births in the world-- over 2.62 crores per year.

In view of the above worrying scenario of IMR/MMR, I would urge the hon. Minister of Women and Child Development to take urgent corrective steps.

(Ends)

SMT. JAYA BACHCHAN (UTTAR PRADESH): Sir, I associate with the hon. Member’s Special Mention.

(Ends)

ENVIRONMENT AND G.D.P.

SHRI VIJAY JAWAHARLAL DARDA (MAHARASHTRA) : Sir, environmental experts have opined that in case we are projecting nearly 9 per cent GDP growth, the real GDP growth in terms of accounting for ecological degradation, loss of natural resources, loss of bio-diversity, etc., would probably be somewhere near 6 per cent. Forecasting of 8.5 to 9 per cent requires a well-structured economic appraisal keeping in view factors like (i) farm output recovery after a drought year, (ii) capability of our fast growing economy having been able to bounce 44 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 back to the rate at which it was growing before the global credit meltdown in 2008, and again the debt crisis and its bailout in the E.U., in October, 2011, (iii) our growing trade deficit, and, (iv) inflationary trends, thereby shrinking the number of persons waiting for

‘prosperity’.

Evolving a holistic growth-oriented governance pattern is of paramount importance. Efforts must be put in to increase farm output ensuring remunerative prices, reducing costly inputs, crop rotation, drip irrigation, no-till farming techniques, etc. Similar thrust is required for productivity gains in manufacturing and services sectors, generating domestic and foreign investment for infrastructure build- up, reducing operational costs through timely execution of approved projects to avoid time-overrun and cost-overrun, quicker collection of revenue like income-tax, excise-tax, dedicated research and development efforts to explore onshore oil and off-shore hydrocarbons with need-based public-private partnership, and meeting defence hardware and software requirements from indigenous sources. 45 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 I, therefore, urge the Government to let us resolutely synergise for combating widening invisible difference between the estimated

GDP and the real GDP.

(Ends)

(Followed by tdb/1t)

SCH-TDB/1T/12.30

DEMAND FOR TAKING MEASURES TO PROMOTE HIGHER INVESTMENTS IN RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES OF SICK COMPANIES AND PROVIDE MEDICINES TO COMMON MAN AT LOW PRICES THROUGH JAN AUSHADHI KENDRAS & P.D.S.

ी भात झा (मध्य देश): उपसभाध्यक्ष महोदय, देश के नागिरक िचिकत्सा व

वाथ्य के बुिनयादी अिधकार से विचतं ह। अमेिरका म वाथ्य एक महत्वपूणर्

मुा होता है। राटर्पित चुनाव म और िटेन म त्येक नागिरक सरकारी खचर् पर

वाथ्य सुिवधाएं ात करता है। लेिकन हमारे देश म सरकारी िनयंतर्ण वाली

74 दवाओं म से 30 का उत्पादन दवा कं पिनय ने अरसे से बंद कर िदया है। वहीं

जरूरी दवाओं के मूय िनयंतर्ण की सरकारी नीित िसफर् िदखावा है। 2003 से

अब तक उच्चतम न्यायालय ने कई बार सरकार को जरूरी दवाओं के मूय

िनयंितर्त रखने की चेतावनी दी है। सरकारी लचरपन का फायदा उठाते हुए दवा

कं पिनया ं खास दवाओं का िनमार्ण बंद करके अपने अिधकार और क्षमता का 46 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 इतेमाल अिधक मुनाफे वाली दवाओं के उत्पादन म करने लगती ह। सरकार

जरूरी दवाओं के मूय को िनयंितर्त करने म नाकाम तो है ही, गरीब को मुहैया

कराई जाने वाली मुत दवाओं की आपूिर्त भी साल-दर-साल कम होती जा रही

है। देश की 70 ितशत आबादी दवाओं की कोई कीमत नहीं चुका सकती है।

उन्ह मुत दवाओं की जरूरत है। हमारे देश म ित मरीज अपने िचिकत्सा खचर्

का 71 ितशत दवाओं पर खचर् करता है।

अत: सरकार से मागं है िक िनजी कं पिनय पर अपनी िजमेदारी को

डालने के बजाए, सरकार को बीमार पड़ी कं पिनय म सीधे शोध व िवकास पर

िनवशे करना चािहए। सती दर पर उत्पािदत दवाओं को सावर्जिनक िवतरण

णाली और जन-औषधी के न्दर् के जिरए आम लोग तक, िवशेषकर गरीब तक

पहुंचाया जाना चािहए।

(समात)

ी कान िंसह सोलंकी (मध्य देश): महोदय, म इनके इस िवशेष उलेख का

समथर्न करता हूं।

(समात)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Now, we will take up the Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education

(Amendment) Bill, 2010. Shri Kapil Sibal. 47 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 THE RIGHT OF CHILDREN TO FREE AND COMPULSORY EDUCATION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2010

THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT (SHRI

KAPIL SIBAL): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I beg to move:

That the Bill to amend the Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education Act, 2009, be taken into consideration.

Sir, as you are aware, the Right of Children to Free and

Compulsory Education Act, 2009, was published in the Gazette on the

27th August, 2009, and came into effect on the 1st of April, 2010. After it came into effect, we received several representations from key stakeholders on wide range of issues. At that time, there were two specific amendments that were sought. One was to widen the definition or to clarify the definition of ‘disadvantaged children’ because certain children who were suffering from certain disabilities were not incorporated in the definition clause. So, one set of amendments were suggested in that context. The other set of amendment was suggested in the context of articles 29 and 30 of the

Constitution. We considered this, Sir, and, then, on the 16th of April, we introduced this Amendment in the House. Thereafter, the matter 48 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 was sent to the Standing Committee. The Standing Committee, in turn, made several recommendations, and, by and large, we agreed to 80 to 90 per cent of those recommendations, and that is how we are now here before this House.

Sir, I would only indicate that this is really a historic piece of legislation, and, hopefully, in the years to come, it will have a huge impact not just on the quality of education imparted to children in this country between classes 1 to 8, in the age group of 6 to 14, but it will also change the way we look at education. The real challenge before us is to ensure its implementation on the ground because you can have a legislation, but it needs to be implemented, and the stakeholders involved in the implementation of this legislation are not just Governments, not just the Central Government or the State

Governments, but key stakeholders in society as well, which includes parents, includes the School Management Committees, includes the

Panchayats; it includes the civil society, the NGOs, in general, and, of course, the children themselves. And unless all key stakeholders make a commitment that we need to move forward together in this 49 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 direction that we will bring about the kind of change that this country has not seen before...

(Contd. by 1u-sss)

SSS/1U/12.35

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): because unless we prepare our children with quality education so that they stand up and compete with the rest of the world, the challenges before the country are so complex and numerous that we will not be able to meet those challenges. So, I think it is fundamental for all of us to agree on the roadmap ahead. Now, these amendments broadly deal, Sir, with three categories. One is, dealing with the definition of child belonging to disadvantaged group. As I had indicated, Sir, in the beginning, we all felt that children with disabilities and children with multiple disabilities should also be included in the definition and therefore, now we have said that ‘child belonging to disadvantaged group’ means ‘a child with disability’ and, then, it continues. So, that is one amendment that we have sought. And, then, we have added clause

(e) in Section 2 of the Act where we have put in another definition

“child with disability” includes, - (A) a child with “disability” as 50 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 defined in clause (i) of Section 2 of the Persons with Disabilities

(Equal Opportunities, Protection of Rights and Full Participation) Act,

1995; (B) a child, being a person with disability as defined in clause

(j) of Section 2 of the National Trust for Welfare of Persons with

Autism, Cerebral Palsy, Mental Retardation and Multiple Disabilities

Act, 1999; (C) a child with “severe disability” as defined in clause (o) of Section 2 of the National Trust for Welfare of Persons with Autism,

Cerebral Palsy, Mental Retardation and Multiple Disabilities Act,

1999”. So, children with all these disabilities are now part of the definition of ‘child belonging to disadvantaged group’. The impact of this being that these will then be considered as part of the 25 per cent who are entitled representation in schools. So, this is one set of amendments, and consequentially, in the light of this expansion of the definition of ‘children belonging to disadvantaged groups’, we have had to amend Section 3 and in Section 3 itself, for the main Section

3(1) we have substituted the following provision, “Every child of the age of six to fourteen years including a child referred to in Clause (d) or Clause (e) of Section 2,” which I just read, “shall have the right to free and compulsory education in a neighborhood school till the 51 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 completion of his or her elementary education. This is to ensure that

‘children with disabilities’ are entitled to the same rights as ‘children belonging to disadvantaged groups’. We have added another clause and this is proviso to Section 3(3) where we have stated that

‘provided that a child with multiple disabilities referred to in Clause (h) and a child with severe disabilities referred to in clause (o) of Section

2 of the National Trust for Welfare of Persons with Autism, Cerebral

Palsy, Mental Retardation and Multiple Disabilities Act, 1999, may also have the right to opt for home based education”. The reason why we have added this is that some of these children suffer from such severe disabilities or such complex multiple disabilities that it is, sometimes, difficult to provide the facilities for them within the environment of school. So, there is an option with these children to also get home based education. That does not mean that schools will not integrate them into the class room but the parents will have the option to assure home based education for children in this category. Some people have questioned this that this should not be an instrument in the hands of school administration not to admit such children into the classroom. So, I think, Sir, we have to be very careful. That is why I 52 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 am making this statement before the distinguished Members of this

House and, through you, Sir, want to convey to the nation that this is not to be taken as an instrument in the hands of the administration to deny admission of such children in schools.

(Contd. by NBR/1W)

-SSS/NBR-VNK/1W/12.40.

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): But, it should be taken to be an option with the parents that they are entitled to home-based education as well. So, this is an additional privilege given to children in this category. So, this is one set of amendments, Sir.

The second set of amendments on which there have been, again, demands from the members of the minority community in particular saying that this Act does not really take care of the interests of the minority communities, because it does anywhere say that this is all subject to Articles 29 and 30. Though, I believe, this, obviously, is subject to Articles 29 and 30, because that is the Constitutional prescription. But, be that it may be, I wanted to make two things clear -- one is that it is subject to Articles 29 and 30 and the second one is that this Act shall not apply to two categories of institutions i.e., 53 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Madrasas and Vedic Patshalas. That is why, to Section 1, we have added Sub-Section (iv) and (v). Sub-Section (iv) reads in the following fashion: "Subject to the provisions of Article 29 and 30 of the

Constitution, the provisions of this Act shall apply to conferment of rights on children to free and compulsory education." Sub-Section

(v) reads as follows: "Nothing contained in this Act shall apply to

Madrasas, Vedic Patshalas and educational institutions primarily imparting religious instructions." So, we wanted to, actually, make sure that those institutions that impart religious instruction do not come within the ambit of this Act. And, this is what the demand of several members of the minority community that it should be made clear. So, we though that this should be done so that if there are any doubts they must immediately be dealt with.

Apropos that, Sir, we have also ensured that the Management

Committees constituted in the context of minority institutions should have the capacity to advice the School Management and should not be, in the context of minority institutions, the final authority. In that context, we have had to amend Section 21. What we have indicated therein is, we have added a proviso. The Proviso says, "Provided 54 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 that he School Management Committee constituted under Sub-

Section (1) in respect of a school established and administered by minority whether based on religion or language and all other aided schools as defined under Sub-Clause (ii) of Clause (n) of Section (2) shall perform advisory function only." In other words, those

Management Committees will still be there, but they will not be the final authority in the context of aided minority schools or aided schools in general and in the context of minority institutions. This we have brought out in Section 21 by adding a proviso there.

And, we have also amended Section 22 by adding for the words

'School Management Committee constituted', we have added the words 'School Management Committee, except the School

Management Committee in respect of a school established and administered by minority whether based on religion or language.'

Then, the Section read as it does. And, an aided school as defined in

Sub-Clause (ii) of Clause (n) of Section (2). So, Sir, this is the other set of amendments that I was talking about and which we have brought to this House and commend these amendments to this

House. 55 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 There are two other very small amendments that I want to bring to the notice of the distinguished Members of this House. There was a slight conflict between Section 19 and 25 of the Act. In Section 19, we have indicated that no school shall be established or recognized under Section 18 unless it fulfills the norms and standards specified under Schedule. In Section 19(2), we have said, 'where a school established before commencement of the Act does not fulfill the norms and standards specified in the Schedule, it shall take steps to fulfill such norms and standards at its own expense within a period of three years from the date of such commencement.' This was the provision under Section 19. In Section 25, as it originally stood before the amendment that I am proposing,...

(CONTD. BY USY "1X")

USY/DS/1X/12.45

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): What was said was that within six months, from the date of commencement of this Act, the appropriate

Government or the local authority shall ensure that the pupil-teacher ratio, as specified in the schedule, is maintained in each school.

Now, this was in conflict with section 19 because this section gives six 56 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 months' time, while section 19 gave three years' time. So, we have made both consistent in section 25. We have substituted the words

'within six months' with the words 'within three years'.

Section 35, which is the last amendment, is really a clause to remove the power of the Central Government to remove difficulties. In the event of some difficulties in the implementation of the Act, that power should be with the Central Government. That's a provision which is an omnibus provision, which you will find in several legislations in this country.

Sir, these are broad and specific amendments that I am introducing for commendation of this House. I beg that these amendments be accepted and the Bill be passed after being taken into consideration.

(Ends)

The question was proposed.

ी कान िंसह सोलंकी (मध्य देश): उपसभाध्यक्ष महोदय, 6 से 14 वष र् की

उ के बच्च के िलए िन:शुक और अिनवायर् िशक्षा का िवधेयक अगत 2009 म

इस सदन म पािरत हुआ। सदन म पािरत होने के पचात कई तरह की िदक्कत

आई ं और यह मामला सुीम कोटर् तक गया। आज इस िवधेयक के अंदर 57 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 सरकार की तरफ से जो संशोधन तािवत िकये गये ह, उनको देख कर ऐसा

लगता है िक जब यह िवधेयक अगत 2009 म पास िकया गया था, तब इस बात

पर समगर् रूप से ध्यान नहीं िदया गया था िक वातव म इस age group के

बच्च के िलए िवतार म इसकी िकतनी आवयकता है। 5-6 अमडमट्स इस

बात की ओर सकं े त करते ह िक िशक्षा जैसा महत्वपूण र् िवषय, जो मौिलक

अिधकार म ारभ म ही होना चािहए था, उसकी तरफ अपने देश म िकतना

दुलर्य हो रहा है। Disadvantaged group, यानी ऐसा गर्ुप जो अलािभत समूह

कहलाता है, िजसम SCs और STs के साथ-साथ BPL के लोग भी आते ह,

लेिकन मुझे ऐसा लगता है िक disadvantaged group म इन तीन ेिणय की

अपेक्षा िवकलागं एव ं िन:श बच्च की ेणी नबर एक पर बनती है, उसके

पचात ही SCs, STs और BPL groups आते ह, जो िक इस िवधेयक म छू ट

गये। इसिलए इस बात को रेखािकतं करते हुए म कहना चाहता हूँ िक अब 2012

म हम जो िवधेयक या क़ानून सशोधनं के माध्यम से यहा ँ पर पािरत कर रहे ह,

उसम कई तरह की िदक्कत सरकार के ध्यान म आईं और उन िदक्कत को दूर

करने के िलए जो सशोधनं पेश िकये गये ह, म ऐसा मानता हूँ िक अब यह

िवधेयक देश की वतंतर्ता के 65 वष र् के बाद पूण र् रूप म हम सब के सामने आया

है और इसिलए िवपक्ष के रूप म हम इसका समथर्न करते ह और वागत करते

ह। (1वाई/एमसीएम पर जारी)

58 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 -DS/MCM-PK/1y/12-50

ी कान िंसह सोलंकी (कर्मागत) : अभी भी जैसा मन े कहा िक फं डामटल

राइट म होना चािहए था। लेिकन िकसी भी तरह से मौिलक अिधकार म जब

सिवधानं पेश हुआ, तब नहीं आया। लेिकन इसकी मागं हमेशा उठती रही और

उस मागं को ध्यान म रखते हुए सिवधानं के अंदर 86वा ं सशोधनं िकया गया और

86व संशोधन के 21(1) के माध्यम से तीसरे अध्याय म इसे मौिलक अिधकार के

रूप म वीकार कर िलया गया। िफर म सरकार की िनिकर्यता की तरफ ध्यान

िदलाना चाहता हूं िक 2002 म फं डामटल राइट म आ जाने के पचात भी यह

कानून नहीं बना और अगत, 2009 के अंदर िशक्षा का अिधकार RTE, एक

कानून के अंदर आ गया। लेिकन वह भी इस रूप म आया िक इतने सारे सशोधनं

करने पड़े। हमको यह ध्यान देने की जरूरत है िजस तरफ मानव ससाधनं

िवकास मंतर्ी ने भी इशारा िकया है िक कानून बनाने से उसका योजन पूरा नहीं

होता, उेय पूरा नहीं होता और उसका िकर्यान्वयन होगा िक नहीं? इस

िवधेयक और कानून के माध्यम से जो पिरवतर्न ह, वह देश म उस समूह के िलए

करना चाहते ह िजसके िलए िवधेयक बनाया है, उनके अंदर इसका कोई लाभ

िमलेगा िक नहीं? तो क्या कानून की इच्छापूिर्त इसम से हो रही है? िनजी

कू ल का मेनेजमट ारभ से ही इसका िवरोध कर रहा था। उन्हने िवरोध भी

िकया और व े सुीम कोटर् के अंदर भी गए। लेिकन एक बहुत अच्छी बात यह हुई

िक सुीम कोटर् ने इसके ऊपर अपनी मुहर लगा दी। लेिकन अभी भी यह ध्यान 59 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 म आता है िक िनजी कू ल चुप नहीं बैठे ह और व े पुन: समीक्षा की बात कर रहे

ह। अगर वे समीक्षा के िलए कोटर् म जाते ह तो इसम पुन: समय लगेगा। सरकार

ने कानून बनाकर के कह िदया िक िजतने भी कू ल ह, उनम िनजी कू ल भी ह,

अन्य कार के भी कू ल ह, उनको अपने यहा ं 25 परसट बच्च को वशे देना

अिनवायर् होगा। लेिकन, अगर िनजी कू ल का मेनेजमट इसको वीकार नहीं

करता तो ऐसी िथित म उनके साथ क्या यवहार होगा? दूसरे जो िनजी कू ल

ह, पिलक कू ल ह िजनके अंदर भारी फीस है, उनका इंाटर्क्चर भी बहुत

अच्छा है, उनके अंदर पढ़ने वाले बच्च के साथ जब ये 25 परसट वाले बच्चे

बठै गे, जो िडस-एडवाटं ेज गर्ुप के ह, तो उन बच्च का तर कै सा होगा और

दोन का मेल िमलाप िकस तरह से होगा और इस बात की क्या गारंटी है िक

िनजी कू ल का मेनेजमट ऐसे बच्च को आत्मीयता से अपनाकर, उनको साथ म

लेकर, उनकी गित के ऊपर ध्यान रखेगा और व े डर्ॉप आउट न ह, इसकी वह

िंचता करेगा? बिक, मुझे तो कई बार ऐसा लगता है िक व े कोिशश यह करगे

िक इनम से बहुत सारे बच्चे डर्ॉप आउट हो जाएं। अभी भी जो डर्ॉप आउट की

िथित है, ऐसी सरकारी िरपोटर् है िक 100 म से 70 परसट बच्चे कू ल म

एडिमशन लेते ह और 30 परसट छू ट जाते ह। जो 70 परसट बच्चे छू टते ह,

हाईकू ल तक आते-आते उनम से 60 परसट डर्ॉप हो जाते ह। अब अगर 70 का

60 परसट िनकालगे तो 42 होगा। 100 म से 28 बच्चे ही पढ़ते ह। इस तरह की

िथित म जब सारी की सारी बात खड़ी होगी तो जो िकर्यान्वयन का िवषय है, 60 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 इलीमटेशन का िवषय है वह िकस तरह से होगा? इसम बाधा िसफर् िनजी

कू ल नहीं ह, इस बाधा राज्य सरकार भी ह। अगर हम इसका िवचार करगे तो

ऐसे िकतने राज्य ह िजन्हने यह कानून बनाकर के अिधसूचना जारी की है?

राज्य सरकार ने इसको िंचता का िवषय बना करके और िफर इसके

िकर्यान्वयन के िलए उतनी तत्परता से काम िकया िजतनी तत्परता से हमने एक

मौिलक अिधकार बनाते हुए इस िवधेयक को लागू िकया है। िजस तरह हमने

सशोधनं करके इसको समगर् रूप िदया है, उसके िकर्यान्वयन का हम जब

िवचार करगे तो हमारे ध्यान म आ जाएगा िक िकर्यान्वयन के बारे म बहुत शंकाएं

ह और कहीं ऐसा लगता है िक यह कानून, कानून बनकर ही न रह जाए।

(1Z/HMS पर जारी)

1Z/HMS-PB/12.55

ी कान िंसह सोलंकी (कर्मागत) : महोदय, म आपके माध्यम से सरकार का

ध्यान एक और बात की तरफ खींचना चाहता हूं िक यह िवधेयक 6 से 14 वष र् की

आयु के बच्च की ाइमरी एजुके शन के िलए है और यह गर्ुप बहुतायत म अपने

देश म है िजसके िवकास से ही देश का उत्थान और गित हो सकती है। जब हम

6 से 14 वष र् की आयु के बच्च के बारे म िवचार करते ह, तो मनोवैज्ञािनक का

ऐसा कहना है िक 5 वष र् की अवथा तक पहुंचते-पहुंचते बच्चे के मितक का

पूरा िवकास हो जाता है। उसके पचा जो कु छ उसे बताया जाता है, जो कु छ

उसे पढ़ाया जाता है, जो सकारं उसके मितक पर डाले जाते ह, उनका 61 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 उसके जीवन पर बड़ा भाव पड़ता है। वातव म 5 वष र् की अवथा तक वह

"क्लीन लेट" होता है और उस क्लीन लेट पर जो कु छ िलखा जाता है,

उनका उस पर बड़ा भाव पड़ता है। तो न यह उठता है िक हम िशक्षा के

माध्यम से उस क्लीन लेट पर क्या िलखना चाहते ह? िफर एक और िवषय

आता है िक िशक्षा के माध्यम से हम उसे क्या बनाना चाहते ह?

महोदय, हमारे देश म कई तरह के संसाधन मौजूद ह, जैसे खिनज

ससाधनं ह, अन्न के ससाधनं ह और भी दूसरे ससाधनं ह। इसी तरह देश के

अंदर मानव ससाधनं है और मेरा मानना है िक देश के उत्थान के िलए मानव

ससाधनं सब से ज्यादा महत्वपूणर् है। इसिलए एक राटर् के उत्थान के िलए वैसे

यिय का िनमार्ण करना आवयक है। हम सभी जानते ह िक पूरे िवव म

यि पैदा होते ह, उनका खून भी एकसा होता है, उनकी बीमािरया ं भी एक

जैसी होती ह, लेिकन भारत के यि और इंग्लड , अमेिरका व दूसरे देश के

यिय म फकर् होता है। महोदय, िशक्षा एक ऐसा माध्यम है, एक ऐसा तंतर् है

िजसके माध्यम से हम यह तय कर सकते ह िक हमारे अपने राटर् के िवकास के

िलए हम िकस तरह के यि की आवयकता है, वैसे यि हम िशक्षा के

माध्यम से तैयार कर सकते ह। इसिलए मानव ससाधनं की पूिर्त राटर् की

आवयकता के अनुसार करना िशक्षा का काम है और यह काम 6 वष र् की

अवथा म ाइमरी एजुके शन से ारंभ होता है। इसिलए 6 वष र् से 14 वष र् की

अवथा की जो क्लीन लेट है जो 5 वष र् की आयु के बच्चे के िवकास के बाद 62 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 शुरू होती है, वातव म हम उस क्लीन लेट पर क्या िलख रहे ह, यह बहुत

महत्वपूण र् है। मुझे लगता है िक सरकार को और हम सभी को इस बारे म सोचना

चािहए क्यिक अभी तो हम उस क्लीन लेट पर वह िलख रहे ह िजसे "थर्ी

आर" की िशक्षा के नाम से जाना जाता है। इस "थर्ी आर" का अथर् है - रीिंडग,

राइिंटग और अथर्मिटक।ै महोदय, यह "थर्ी आर" की िशक्षा हमारे युवक को

क्लकर् बनाती है और यह "थर्ी आर" की िशक्षा ही एक ऐसा यि बनाती है िजसे

अक्षर ज्ञान होता है। यहा ं अक्षर ज्ञान के बारे म म महात्मा गाधीं जी का उलेख

करूं गा। महात्मा गाधीं ने "थर्ी आर" की िशक्षा का घोर िवरोध िकया था। 1893 म

बिरटरै की उपािध ात करने के बाद जब व े इंग्लड से आए तो अीका म

अपने देश के लोग ने उनसे आगर्ह िकया िक अीका म हमारे साथ बहुत

अन्याय, अत्याचार व शोषण होता है। आप हम इनसे बचाइए। महात्मा गाधीं जी

ने बिरटरै की उपािध अीका से ात की थी। इंग्लड और अंगर्ेज की सारी

बात को समझने के िलए व े 1906 म अीका से इंग्लड आए। उसके बाद व े 1909

म अीका से इग्लं ड आए और 1909 म जब व े आए तो तीन-चार महीने इंग्लड

रहे तो पानी के जहाज से लौटे। पानी के जहाज से उनको इंग्लड से अीका

आने के िलए 14 िदन लगे और इन 14 िदन म "िंहद वराज" िलखा। इसम जो

कु छ िलखा है, वह उन्हने सारा-का-सारा उसम िलखा है। उसम उन्हने िशक्षा

के बारे म भी िलखा। मन े महात्मा गाधीं के नाम का उलेख इसिलए िकया क्यिक

वह कोई िववादापद नाम नहीं होगा। उन्हने उसम अक्षर ज्ञान के बारे म बताया 63 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 िक अक्षर ज्ञान वातव म िशक्षा नहीं है। यह दुधारू तलवार है। यह एक ऐसा

धारदार हिथयार है िजसका उपयोग डॉक्टर के माध्यम से ऑपरेशन के ारा

रोगी को ठीक करने के िलए भी िकया जा सकता है और इस धारदार हिथयार

का उपयोग िकसी को मारने के िलए भी िकया जा सकता है।

(2ए/के एलजी पर जारी)

2A/KLG-SKC/1.00

ी कान िंसह सोलंकी (कर्मागत): इसिलए यह अक्षर ज्ञान वातव म िशक्षा

नहीं है।

उपसभाध्यक्ष (ो. पी.जे.कु िरयन): सोलंकी जी, आपको और िकतने िमनट

चािहए, क्यिक लंच ेक का टाइम है, मुझे आपको बताना है।

ी कान िंसह सोलंकी: क्या और कोई वा ह हमारी तरफ से?

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Mr. Solanki, for how many more minutes would you like to speak? We have to break for lunch and there is one more speaker left. You may take five minutes more.

ी कान िंसह सोलंकी: सर, म महात्मा गाधीं के बारे म कह रहा था। उन्हने

उसम, िंहद वराज के अंदर एक ऐसे यि का नाम िलया, जो अंगर्ेज है। म

उनका पढ़कर सुनाता हूँ। अंगर्ेजी के एक िवान हक्सले ने िशक्षा के िवषय म इस

कार कहा है – उस मनुय को सच्ची िशक्षा िमली है, िजस मनुय का शरीर ऐसे

सधा है िक वह उसके अंकु श म रह सकता है। यानी मनुय और उसका शरीर, 64 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 शरीर के अदरं और भी जो बात ह, व े सारी की सारी उसने इस तरह से साधी ह,

सयिमतं की ह िक वह उसके अंकु श म रह सकता है। वह शरीर चैन से और

सरलता से उसे सपा हुआ काम करता है। उस मनुय को अच्छी िशक्षा िमली है,

िजसकी बुि शु है, शातं है और न्यायदशीर् है। उस मनुय ने सच्ची िशक्षा पाई

है, िजसका मन कु दरत के कायद से भरा हुआ है और िजसकी इंिदर्या ं उसके

वश म है। िजसकी अंतबुर्ि शु है और जो मनुय नीच काम को िधक्कारता है

तथा अपने सरीखा दूसर को िगनता है, ऐसा मनुय सच्चा िशिक्षत िगना

जाएगा। वह कु दरत के िनयम के अनुरूप चलता है, कु दरत उसका सही

उपयोग करेगी, वह कु दरता का सही उपयोग करेगा। अब यह जो हक्सले के

माध्यम से महात्मा गाधीं ने अपने उद्गार य िकए ह, इस पर अगर हम िवचार

करगे, तो िशक्षा के माध्यम से क्लीन लेट के ऊपर जो पाचं वष र् की उ के बाद

शुरू होती है, हम इसके ऊपर आज क्या िलख रहे ह? इसिलए थर्ी आर की

िशक्षा, इसको उन्हने नकारा है। इतना ही नहीं महात्मा गाधीं ने थर्ी आर की

िशक्षा की जगह थर्ी एच की िशक्षा की बात की है। थर्ी एच का मतलब होता है,

सबसे पहले बुि, हैड, दूसरा एच मायने हड, आप काम क्या करते ह और

तीसरा एच मायने हॉटर्, यानी हैड, हड और हॉटर्। उनका कहना था िक जो थर्ी

एच है, थर्ी आर के थान पर हम थर्ी एच का समन्वय चािहए। आपकी बुि क्या

कहती है, आपका ज्ञान क्या कहता है, जो कु छ कहता है उसके अनुसार आप

काम कर रहे ह या नहीं, दोन के समन्वय के साथ जो काम कर रहे ह, उसके 65 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 पीछे आपकी आत्मा खड़ी है या नहीं, आपका मन खड़ा है या नहीं। इन तीन का

समन्वय िजस यि का नहीं होता है, उस यि को वह िशिक्षत नहीं कह रहे

ह। वह थर्ी एच की िशक्षा की बात कर रहे ह। ।

महोदय, इसी को किव जयशंकर साद ने कहा है –

“ ज्ञान दूर कु छ िकर्या िभन्न है, इच्छा कै से पूरी हो मन की।”

हम मनुय कु छ काम करना चाहते ह, लेिकन ज्ञान दूर है और

िकर्या उससे अलग है। तो

ज्ञान दूर कु छ िकर्या िभन्न है, इच्छा कै से पूरी हो मन की।

एक दूसरे से न िमल सके , यह िवडंबना है जीवन की।

सबसे बड़ी िवडंबना जीवन की यह है िक इन तीन का समन्वय

नहीं है। इसिलए िशक्षा पर जैसा महापुरूष ने कहा है, महात्मा गाधीं के बाद म

यहा ं पर िवनोबा भाव े का नाम उतृ करुं गा। िवनोबा भावे, जो वधार् म अपने

आम म रहते थे, तो सताह म एक िदव मौनत करते थे। मौनत के िदन भी

लोग उनसे िमलने के िलए आते थे और बात करते थे। एक बार जब व े मौनत पर

थे, गावं के लोग उनके पास बैठे थे, शहर के लोग, अपने जैसे, उनसे िमलने के

िलए पहुंचे। चूिकं मौनत पर थे, इसिलए बोल नहीं रहे थे, उन्हने अपने पास

लेट बी रखी हुई थी। उन्हने लेट पर बी से िलखकर पढ़े िलखे लोग को

िदया िक देखो, तुहारे सामने गे के टुकड़े पड़े ह, इन गे के टुकड़ को ऐसे

जोड़ो िक भारत बन जाए। पढ़े-िलखे लोग ने समझा िक गे के जो टुकड़े पड़े 66 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 ह, उनम भारत का मानिचतर् होगा, िजनके ये टुकड़े कर िदए ह, इनको जोड़ना

है। पढ़े-िलखे लोग ने कोिशश की, लेिकन भारत नहीं बना, उसम कोई न कोई

कमी रह जाती थी। इसके बाद उन्हने गावं के लोग को कहा िक आप जोड़ो।

गावं के लोग ने जोड़ते हुए देखते-देखते भारत बना िदया। जब भारत बना िदया,

चूिकं व े तो बोल नहीं सकते थे, इसिलए पढ़े-िलखे लोग ने उनसे पूछा िक भारत

कै से बना? उर बहुत िविचतर् था। गावं के लोग ने कहा- हमने भारत नहीं

बनाया है, जो भारत बना रहे थे, हम भारत िनमार्ण की बात करते ह। हमने भारत

िनमार्ण नाम का हैड रखा हुआ है सरकार का।

(2बी/एनबी पर जारी)

HK-NB/2B/1.05

ी कान िंसह सोलंकी (कर्मागत) : हम भारत िनमार्ण की बात करते ह। पढ़े-

िलखे लोग भारत बना रहे थे, लेिकन व े भारत नहीं बना पाए और गावं के लोग ने

भारत बना िदया। उनसे पूछने पर उन्हने कहा िक हमने भारत नहीं बनाया।

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please conclude. One more speaker is there from your party.

ी कान िंसह सोलंकी : जब पढ़े-िलखे लोग ने उनसे पूछा िक आपने क्या

बनाया है, तो उन्हने कहा िक इस िचतर् के पीछे एक आदमी का िचतर् है, हमने

वह आदमी बनाया है। सतं िवनोबा ने िबना बताए पढ़े-िलखे लोग को समझा

िदया िक अगर आप भारत बनाना चाहते हो, तो भारत नहीं बना पाओगे, लेिकन 67 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 अगर आप आदमी बनाओगे, तो भारत बनेगा। इसिलए आज आदमी बनाने की

जरूरत है और हम इस िदशा म सोचने की जरूरत है। म इन सशोधनं का

वागत करता हूं, लेिकन वातव म हम िशक्षा के माध्यम से देश की वतंतर्ता के

65 वष के बाद देश की जनता को क्या दे रहे ह? वामी िववेकानंद कहते थे िक

हम कै सा आदमी चािहए? व े कहते थे िक develop the heart because through it the Lord speaks. िशक्षा का उेय व े यही बताते थे िक यि के

अंत:करण का िवकास किरए, उसको संकीणर्ता से दूर किरए, उसके अंदर जो

ं है, उससे उसे मुि िदलाइए, उसम जो दानवी वृि है, उस पर िनयतर्णं

करते हुए, उसकी दैवी वृि को उजागर किरए। अगर इस तरह से अंत:करण

का िवकास होता है, तो वह सही िशक्षा होगी। महिर्ष अरिंवद तो महामानव की

बात करते थे। इसिलए म इन सशोधनं का वागत करते हुए आपके माध्यम से

सरकार से यह अनुरोध करना चाहता हूं िक देश की वतंतर्ता के 65 वष के बाद

हम इस बात पर िवचार कर िक हमारे यहा ं 14 वष र् तक के बच्चे जो क्लीन लेट

ह, हम अपने देश की िशक्षा के माध्यम से उन पर क्या अंिकत करना चाहते ह?

इसके अलावा बहुत सी बात ह। टीचसर् की िथित क्या है, िवीय िथित क्या है

और िजन चीज का आप िजकर् कर रहे थे, उनको सभालनं े की क्या िकर्या

होगी? जब तक हम इन चीज को पूरा नहीं करगे, तब तक इस सशोधनं से जो

हम चाहते ह, वह पूरा नहीं हो सके गा। बहुत-बहुत धन्यवाद।

(समात) 68 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): The House is adjourned for lunch. The House will meet after one hour.

----

The House then adjourned for lunch at seven minutes past one of the clock.

KSK-GSP/2.05&2.10/2C&2D

The House re-assembled after lunch at ten minutes past two of the clock,

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN) in the Chair ---

DR. BHALCHANDRA MUNGEKAR (NOMINATED): Hon. Vice-

Chairman, Sir, I stand to support the amendments to the Right of

Children to Free and Compulsory Education Bill, 2010. Before I say something about the provisions of the amendment Bill, I must place on record my compliments and congratulations to the HRD Ministry, firstly, for making a comprehensive legislation, and, secondly, after taking into account the anomalies which were observed thereafter, for bringing forward the important amendments to deal with the earlier 69 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 anomalies, which makes it a comprehensive and complete legislation for giving free and compulsory education to children between the age of six to fourteen.

Sir, almost everyone in this country, at least, those who have worked in the legislature, either in the State or in the Centre, must have gone through the Constitution. In fact, the Constitution of India must have begun with the right of children to free and compulsory education up to the age of 14 but rather than making it a fundamental right for several constraints and considerations, it was put into the

Directive Principles of the State Policy.

Sir, in any kind of system which is ought to be known as the democratic system, of the several requirements, the first single, major and overriding important qualification is to impart best quality elementary education, at least, to children up to the age of fourteen.

In this regard, 86th amendment was passed in the year 2002. I would like to place on record my appreciation for bringing that amendment in

2002. Thereafter, this Right to Education came in 2009, and, with the beginning of its implementation from 2010, it was put into effect. 70 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Sir, with a sense of humility and modesty to my credit, I must mention that when I was serving in the Planning Commission, I was privileged to be involved in the process of making these provisions and legislation, and, I know the sincere efforts put in by the officials of the

Ministry of HRD in order to make this legislation. This Bill went through several forms and incarnations prior to its coming before the

Cabinet and passing by the Parliament; even till it is being introduced today in the form of an amendment Bill.

Sir, for hundreds of years, the Indian society, by definition, and, inherently, is inegalitarian and exclusive. It is highly differentiated by caste, gender, division between rural and urban, levels of education, amount of skills and so on and so forth. And, that is why, the first major intervention in the Indian society at large came in the form of the

Indian Constitution.

Sir, Indian Constitution is not just a legal document, or, for that matter, as it is popularly described, the basic law of the land. By definition, it is the basic law of the land, it is the fundamental law of the land but taking into account India’s hundreds of years of iniquitous social, economic, political, educational structure, for the first time, the 71 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Indian Constitution was the single major intervention, where people of this country solemnly resolved this nation to constitute into a democratic society, a democratic republic.

In this context, I think, everyone in this House will agree and appreciate the efforts of the Government firstly to make the legislation, and, thereafter, bringing this amendment to remove the earlier anomalies.

(Contd. by SK-2E)

SK/2E/2.15

DR. BHALCHANDRA MUNGEKAR (CONTD.): Sir, among several other features, the most important feature is that 25 per cent of the seats have been reserved in the original legislation for the weaker sections of the society. Now, these weaker sections of the society have been properly defined, formally as well as informally, several times in the country. For example, weaker and disadvantaged sections are generally referred to the members of the Scheduled

Caste, Scheduled Tribes and Other Backward Classes. The weaker sections are also referred to certain poorer sections of the minority communities. The weaker sections can also be referred to the 72 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 children of the agricultural labourers and so on. Therefore, anybody who is not up to the standard of the national level, either in the sphere of economics, politics, education or culture, or, for that matter, those who are, unfortunately, having certain physical abnormalities, those who are differently handicap, in course of time, came to be defined and came to be referred to as the weaker sections. Giving this 25 per cent reservation in the schools aided by the Government and even in the privately-managed schools aided by the Government, according to me, is the most revolutionary step so far as this Bill is concerned.

During the last two years, on whatever occasion I had the privilege to speak, I happened to mention that unequal access to education is the single most important mechanism injecting inequality in the social system. That is why unequal access to good quality education at least up to elementary education has to be taken care of. We are not talking of lower primary or upper primary level. There are no such terms anywhere in the vocabulary of education anywhere in the world.

We are talking of elementary education up to the age of 14. Therefore, there is this provision of 25 per cent reservation of the seats for the weaker sections, and I don’t want to repeat, the hon. Minister has 73 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 already defined the amendments, which are the weaker sections, which are the disadvantaged sections, and so on. But, Sir, I call this the most noble feature of this legislation simply because, at present, according to me, there are more than 14 to 15 times of primary elementary education in the country. The Indian Constitution is committed to the fulfilment of objective of equality. When children are starting their formal age, that is, at the age of 4, 5, 6 or 7 and when they get differentiated beyond limit, it is absolutely absurd to claim that our objective is to create an egalitarian society. From that point of view, when this entire exercise was going on in the Planning

Commission, I humbly want to put on record, I was and even today I am in favour of common school system. The most advanced industrialised countries in the world, let us name anyone, irrespective of their differences in income, race, occupation and place of domicile, they are following common school system. None of them is claiming to be a socialistic pattern of society. They themselves call the welfare societies. But in the welfare society, according to me, out of the several requirements, the first requirement is to give good quality elementary education at least up to the age of 14, and from that point 74 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 of view, anywhere in the world, there is common school system, popularly known as neighbouring school system where children belonging to the highest strata of the society and those who are unfortunate to be born in the lower strata of the society get common education. They get assimilated; they get absorbed and they inherit and nurture common culture, common habits and so on.

(Contd. by ysr-2f)

-SK/YSR/2.20/2F

DR. BHALCHANDRA MUNGEKAR (CONTD.): Sir, it is our misfortune that after this legislation was passed by Parliament, some organisations approached the hon. Supreme Court challenging this provision that the private management even those who are getting grants from the Government should be exempted from this provision of reserving 25 per cent seats to the weaker sections of society.

When we talk about corporate social responsibility when we say that society is highly divided when 10-20 per cent of the people of the country have shared the major benefit of economic development since

1951 when economic planning began some people should approach the hon. Supreme Court and challenge the welfare measures 75 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 containing this legislation of providing 25 per cent reserved seats for the weaker sections of society. It is beyond my comprehension. I put on record my sense of appreciation and I congratulate the hon.

Supreme Court for upholding it and closing the matter permanently.

Now, the question is the Central Government and the State

Governments know that it is the primary responsibility of the States to implement the Right to Education. It was made clear in the Bill itself that by the end of the Eleventh Plan 31st March 2012. The Central

Government will reduce its commitment and ultimately it will not be more than 50 per cent. I am fully aware of the financial constraints of the State Governments. But like agriculture I don’t think that the State

Governments can have any excuse but to make adequate provisions for the implementation of the Right to Education. Knowing that the

Central Government according to me will perform this role. I compliment the HRD Minister for this. I read it in the newspapers. He is on record saying that the burden of the expenditure with respect to providing 25 per cent seats to the weaker sections of society will not fall on the students. According to me, fiancé is one consideration. It is overwhelmingly important because the State Government as well as 76 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 the Central Government both of them are experiencing the scarcity of finance. Adequate finance does not automatically solve the problem.

According to me, there are two to three major problems regarding its implementation. Some of them Amendment Bill and the HRD Minister has amply thought but then one or two important points I want to submit for the consideration of the Ministry as well as through you to this entire august House the major problem of this country. Since the

British rule this country for about amore than 100 years or so we have got a typical mindset and that typical mindset has been in maintaining, strengthening and perpetuating hierarchy. I will give you a simple illustration. Take cricket. Except the Commonwealth countries, which were ruled by the British, not a single country plays cricket. I doubt very much if tomorrow China or Japan or America play cricket if all the teams put together I don’t think they will be able to replace

China. Our indigenous games like kabaddi or hockey or football are absolutely neglected as if they don’t exist. This typical mindset according to me is perpetuating unfortunately after independence by the elite class in the country. The point I am driving home of the entire

House and through you to the entire nation is this. Finance is one 77 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 problem but it can be made available through fiscal deficit or by simply asking the Reserve Bank of India to print more currency notes. When these 25 per cent people coming from so-called weaker section background whether they will be absorbed and assimilated in these elite schools with the sense of dignity.

(Contd. by VKK/2G)

-YSR/VKK-PSV/2g/2.25

DR. BHALCHANDRA MUNGEKAR (CONTD.): That, according to me, is a major problem. Sir, though we are providing reservation for the

Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes in the Central Educational

Institutions, there are hundreds of cases where the students belonging to the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes are sometimes discriminated, victimised and considered as sarkari babus. They are considered inefficient and incompetent as if competency, efficiency, quality, scholarship, etc. depends upon one’s caste, which Ambedkar and many others disapproved beyond limit.

Other than the financial problem, I would make a suggestion to the Ministry of Human Resource Development because we shall be practically implementing it in full course from academic year 2013. I 78 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 would suggest to the Ministry of Human Resource Development to have national and State level discourses involving educationists, sociologists, social analysts, social psychologists, etc. because, according to me, if the weaker section students are not allowed to get absorbed because of their inherent problems, it would not help. They are coming from totally different background but, this country is talking of competition. In some schools, Rs.2 lakh annual fee is charged. An agricultural labourer’s sons and daughters – sometimes, father is drunkard and mother is working in National Employment

Guarantee Programme – are not spending even Rs.20 to 50 per day on education. They are going to schools where sometimes, there is no blackboard. Now, the Ministry is taking proper steps during the last five years. I know the statistics. Additional schools are opened. But, the condition is totally differentiated. But, this country is talking about competition. Isn’t it absurd and bogus? There is a concept in the

Constitution. Elite people in the cities, without knowing even proper

English including me, look down upon the rural area people, who speak correct language. The mindset in this country is, the native people of this country, though they speak correct mother tongue, are 79 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 looked down upon and more prestige is given to those who speak incorrect English. Because this is the mindset, from my point of view

– finance is one consideration – we have to go in for national level discourses involving educationists, social psychologists and so on.

Now, I come to the last point. I follow Gandhiji on several occasions though in certain respects, with my total commitment to

Gandhiji, sometimes, it is not possible to accept each and everything that he had to say because it is a social discourse and in a social discourse, nothing is permanent. It is not possible to make a revolution in the country through legislation. Legislation is an inevitable thing when your social process itself is not ensuring that certain thing should get fulfilled automatically. In fact, law is the last resort. For example, if people automatically stand in queue for bus then, it is not necessary to write, ‘Stand in Queue’. We have to write ‘Stand in

Queue’ because people do not follow the queue at all. I have seen it a number of times when I was teaching in the University of Mumbai. The

Professors were forced to break the queue but, the Class-IV employees were standing in the queue. I think, probably, Laski said that law rules the poor, rich rule the law. That is why, although I 80 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 appreciate legislation but, that is not the full panacea. So, following

Gandhijji, what I am ultimately suggesting is that we have to make genuine national movement for the success of right to free and compulsory education for the children in the age group of 6-14 years.

We should make a national movement. The hon. Minister rightly mentioned that we have to involve all stakeholders, parents, children,

NGOs, State Governments, academicians, etc.

(Contd. by KR/2h)

KR/2H/2.30

DR. BHALCHANDRA MUNGEKAR (CONTD.): We must be open to the differing views. Once we make the finance available with the initiative of the State Government, supplementary help from the

Central Government, NGOs, stakeholders, students and ultimately convincing and compelling the elite class in the country that it is their responsibility to allow the relatively disadvantaged sections in the society to come to the national level, I think, it is possible to make this law completely implementable. Thank you very much for your patient hearing. (Ends)

81 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 ALLOCATION OF TIME FOR DISPOSAL OF GOVERNMENT AND

OTHER BUSINESS

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF.P.J. KURIEN): I have to inform

Members that the Business Advisory Committee in its meeting held on the 24th April, 2012, has allotted time for Government Legislative and

Other Business, as follows:-

Business Time allotted

1. Consideration and passing of the Central

Educational Institutions (Reservation in

admission) Amendment Bill, 2010 Three hours

2. Consideration and return of the

Appropriation Bill, relating to Demands

for Grants (Railways) for 2012-13,

after it is passed by the Lok Sabha. Four hours

3. Consideration and passing of the

Chemical Weapons Convention

(Amendment) Bill, 2010. Two hours

4. Discussion on the working of the following

Ministries:- 82 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 a) Civil Aviation;

b) Coal; One day each

c) Defence; and

d) Labour and Employment

(ends)

THE RIGHT OF CHILDREN TO FREE AND COMPULSORY EDUCATION (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2010 -- (CONTD.)

SHRI P. RAJEEVE (KERALA): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I rise to support the Bill which intends to include the differently abled children under the purview of the Right to Education Act. Nobody can deny the fact that the children face psychological complex, peace and isolation in the society. But in our country these sections are not getting sufficient consideration. There are certain provisions in the existing law but the problem is with the proper implementation. We cannot find a separate place for parking vehicles for the disabled persons in the

Parliament House/Parliament House Annexe complex. There are certain toilets for the disabled persons in the Parliament House but they do not find space for parking vehicles in the complex. 83 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Sir, while participating in the discussion on the Right to Education

Bill, I had raised the issues of the children facing autism and cerebral palsy. I requested the Minister to come with a proper amendment of the ill to address these issues. But unfortunately the hon. Minister, as usual, was not ready to accept the proposal. After the reply, I again requested the Minister to take it up on a humanitarian ground and consider the genuine demands of the disabled children. Again I met him personally in the House. But the Minister was not ready to accept the proposal. Sir, had the Minister accepted the proposal, at that time, we would have avoided this amendment Bill because this Bill was first introduced in the Rajya Sabha itself. The Minister could have got enough time to place official amendment in the House at the time of introduction. But the Minister did not accept the genuine demand.

Then, we could have avoided this amendment Bill. The differently abled children could have enjoyed this right earlier.

Sir, in our parliamentary system we have several ways to incorporate the views of the civil society and experts in the legislative process. One of the important mechanisms is our committee system.

The Committee has a right to hear all the interested persons and 84 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 experts. Every citizen, if he is interested, will get a chance to present his views before the Committee. Our committees are doing wonderful job. But unfortunately the response of the HRD Ministry to the recommendation of the Standing Committee on HRD is totally undemocratic. The recommendations of the Standing Committee on

HRD on this Bill were not considered by the Ministry. I will come to that point later.

The same thing happened in the case of the Education Tribunal.

The Minister was compelled to request the Chair to defer the Bill.

(Continued by 2J)

-KR-TMV-DS/2J/2.35

SHRI P. RAJEEVE (CONTD.): In a developed democratic system, the

Ministry has no right to overrule the recommendations of a

Parliamentary Committee. Only the Parliament has the power to do that. But the undemocratic method adopted by the Ministry has created a vacuum in our system. The space created by these types of undemocratic activities is utilised by the so-called civil society organisations in our country. So, I request the Minister to consider the recommendations of the Standing Committee on this Bill also. 85 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 While discussing differently abled children or while discussing this Bill itself, the main weakness of the Bill and the original Bill is the absence of a proper definition of disability. We can’t find a proper definition of disability in any existing law. Now we are making an amendment to provide these facilities to the children who are facing autism and cerebral palsy. After some time new types of disabilities will come up and we will be compelled to further amend this Act. The main weakness of this Bill is lack of a proper definition. Keeping in view the UN Convention on Rights of People with Disabilities, the definition would be like this: “A child with disability includes a child with long-term physical, mental, intellectual or sensory impairments which in interaction with various barriers hinder full and effective participation on an equal basis with others”. This is the definition as per the UN Convention. So, I request the Minister, through you, Sir, to define disability properly. I hope the Minister is also hearing these important things.

Sir, while introducing the Bill the Minister has stated that now all types of disabilities are covered and all types of disabled children would get the benefits under the Right to Education Act. But what 86 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 about the children who are suffering from dyslexia? This doesn’t find a place in the Disabilities Act, 1995. This does not find a place in the

National Trust Act, 1999. In the original Act there is no place for the

National Trust Act, 1999. Dyslexia is not covered by these two Acts.

Then, what would be the fate of the children who are suffering from dyslexia? The Minister has stated in this House, while introducing the

Bill, all types of disabilities would now come under the purview of this

Bill. Now, what about dyslexia? The Standing Committee on Human

Resource Development in para 3.7 of its Report correctly states, “The

Committee finds that ‘dyslexia’ which is also a disability observed in children, does not find a place in the above mentioned two Acts. The

Committee is of the view that ‘dyslexia’ and any other type of disability, if existing, also need to be included in the definition of “child with disability”. The Committee, therefore, recommends that necessary modifications in the definition of “child with disability” may accordingly be made”. This is the recommendation of the Standing

Committee.

Sir, you are looking at the clock. I am raising a very important issue. I am totally concentrating on the Bill itself. 87 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): I know that.

SHRI P. RAJEEVE: I am not trying to elaborate the relevance and the philosophy of true education.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Be brief, because only one minute is left.

SHRI P. RAJEEVE: The Chair is looking this side and that side. That is disturbing me.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: Don’t get disturbed.

SHRI P. RAJEEVE: This is the proposal of the Standing Committee.

When I have raised the issue of students affected with autism and cerebral palsy, the Minister said, “Yes, we will amend the Disabilities

Act and we will amend the other Act also”. I expect the same reply now also, “We are trying to amend the existing Acts and then these people who are suffering from dyslexia will get an opportunity to enjoy the benefit of this Act”.

(Contd. by 2K/VK)

VK/2K/2.40

SHRI P. RAJEEVE (CONTD): That is very unfortunate. These people are suffering a lot. This is about the people who are suffering from dyslexia. Therefore, I request the Minister to come with an official 88 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 amendment today itself. Actually, Sir, I had submitted my amendment during the last Session.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please conclude.

SHRI P. RAJEEVE: Sir, I am just trying to express my views on disabilities. This Bill has been listed only today. Therefore, I could not get time to submit my amendment on this issue. When this Bill was listed in the last Session, I had submitted my amendment on this.

But, this time, I could not get an opportunity to move my amendment on the issue of people who are suffering from dyslexia. Therefore, I request the Minister to come with a proper official amendment today itself to address the issue of dyslexia; otherwise, if you come with a proper amendment after two-three years, that would not be proper; that would not be fair.

Sir, with regard to the neighbourhood school concept, I would like to make one point. For a disabled child, especially with severe or multiple disabilities, a special school, not necessarily a neighbourhood school may be more suitable, as it would be better equipped for such children. So, I request the Minister to either make proper 89 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 amendments to address this issue or make provisions in the Schedule to ensure facilities for disabled children in all schools.

Sir, in the Schedule of the RTE Act, there is no provision for ramps and hand rails. Then Section 2 (iii) of the RTE Act intends to ensure separate toilet facilities for boys and girls. But this Section does not mention about the differently-abled children. I had raised this issue earlier also, but, as usual, it was not considered by the

Minister. Therefore, I urge the Minister, through you, Sir, to make proper changes in the Schedule also.

If the Government sincerely wants to ensure the rights of disadvantaged sections, there should be some changes in Section 29 of the RTE Act, which relates to curriculum. You are dealing with universal curriculum and pedagogy. Now there is nothing to talk about disability-friendly curriculum. I request the Minister to take note of it and come with proper amendments. There should be some provisions to ensure training for teachers who are teaching differently- abled children.

One of the major problems noticed during the last 15 years, after the Disabilities Act, 1995, was that education to children with 90 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 disabilities has been implemented through special schools. Such schools are not affiliated to any Board and there is no mechanism to ensure standards of school structure and functioning. Children from such schools do not get school leaving certificate; they are not really prepared for employment and aspects of adult life. Therefore, I request the Government to revisit the Disabilities Act as soon as possible and make proper amendments to address these issues.

Sir, as per the Act, there is a right to opt for home-based education.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Please conclude. Your time is over.

SHRI P. RAJEEVE: Sir, I am totally concentrating on this Bill. I am trying to strengthen this Bill. This Bill is considering the issues related to disabled sections. What is the mechanism to monitor the system of home-based education? The Minister should adopt a comprehensive approach to address these types of issues. The piecemeal type legislations are not the right way to a comprehensive approach. 91 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 So far as Section 4 is concerned, I support the rights of minorities. Sir, the Supreme Court, while upholding the Right To

Education Act, made some distinction: these institutions, which are availing any type of financial assistance, should come under the purview of this Bill. I could not get the full text of the judgement of the

Supreme Court. But from the newspaper reports I could find that the

Apex Court made a distinction within the minority institutions. It is a very important point. Those institutions, which are availing any type of financial assistance from the State, should come under the purview of this Act. This Bill has not addressed the judgement of the Apex

Court. In Kerala, in the case of aided schools, 98 per cent of the recurring expenditure is made by the Government.

(Contd. By 2L)

RG/HMS/2.45/2L

SHRI P. RAJEEVE (contd.): Lastly, I want to mention one point with regard to Kerala, which is of interest to the Chair as well. While implementing the RTE Act, we are facing so many problems. Kerala has a very good public education system. There are Government schools and unaided schools. As per this Act, even the unaided 92 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 schools have to reserve 25 per cent seats for economically backward classes, for which the Government would give financial assistance to these schools. Now, this would reduce the financial assistance already being given to schools under the present education system.

So, depending upon the objective realities of the State, there should be some flexibility in the implementation process. With these words, I conclude. Thank you, Sir.

(Ends)

उपसभाध्यक्ष (ी पी0जे0 कु िरयन) : ी िशवानन्द ितवारी। ितवारी जी तीन घंटे

म यह िबल पास करना है, इसिलए time constraint है।

ी िशवानन्द ितवारी (िबहार) : उपसभाध्यक्ष जी, म इस िबल के समथर्न म

बोलने के िलए खड़ा हुआ हूं। यह िबल सदन म introduce होने के बाद टिंडग

कमेटी म भेजा गया था और टिंडग कमेटी ने कई सुझाव िदए थे िजन्ह मंतर्ी

महोदय को consider करना चािहए।

उपसभाध्यक्ष जी, अभी हाल ही म धान मंतर्ी जी ने कु पोिषत बच्च, malnutrition के िशकार बच्च, underweight बच्च के बारे म एक िरपोटर् जारी

करते हुए कहा था िक यह राटर्ीय शमर् की बात है। उस िरपोटर् के अनुसार हमारे

देश म लगभग 42 परसट बच्चे अंडरवेट पैदा होते ह। इस के चलते कई तरह की disabilities हमारे समाज म यात ह और ऐसे कई मामल म हमारा दुिनया म 93 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 िरकॉडर् है। इसिलए हमारा यह अनुरोध होगा िक disability का दायरा बढ़ाया

जाए। दूसरी बात यह कहना चाहूंगा िक जो disabled बच्चे ह, उनको जो एक special educator की जरूरत होती है, उनकी सख्यां हमारे देश म नहीं है। इस

के िलए माननीय मंतर्ी जी को उपाय करना चािहए। इस के अलावा disabled

बच्च की पढ़ाई के िलए जो साधन ह, िजन बच्च को िदखायी नहीं देता वह ेल

िलिप वगैरह से पढ़ाई करते ह, उस तरह के साधन की भी हमारे यहा ं बहुत

कमी है और लगभग न के बराबर ह। उन साधन को बढ़ाए जाने के बारे म भी म

मंतर्ी जी से मागं करूं गा। म मंतर्ी जी से यह भी चाहूंगा िक व े राज्य सरकार को

इस तरह के साधन उपलध कराएं। महोदय, राज्य सरकार के पास इस तरह

के साधन नहीं ह या इन बच्च के िलए special educators तैयार करने का

जिरया राज्य सरकार के पास नहीं ह। इसिलए के न्दर् सरकार को इस बात की

जवाबदेही लेनी चािहए िक जो disabled children ह, उन को खास तरह से

िशिक्षत िकए जाने के िलए उस तरह से टर्ड लोग को वह राज्य सरकार को

मुहैया कराए तािक खासकर के जो lagging States ह, िपछड़े हुए या गरीब

राज्य ह, जहा ं िक disabled बच्च की सख्यां ज्यादा है, उन राज्य म underweight बच्चे पैदा हो रहे ह, वहा ं के न्दर् सरकार िवशेष तौर पर ध्यान दे।

महोदय, टिंडग कमेटी म यह िबल गया था िजसने बहुत ही अच्छी

िसफािरश दी ह, मंतर्ी महोदय ने उन्ह िकतना consider िकया, म नहीं जानता,

लेिकन मुझे उमीद है िक जब मतर्ीं जी जवाब दगे तो टिंडग कमेटी की 94 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 िसफािरश के बारे म सरकार क्या करने जा रही है, व े इस बारे म भी बताएंगे।

इसी के साथ म इस िबल का समथर्न करता हूं।

(समात)

SHRI D. BANDYOPADHYAY (WEST BENGAL) : Sir, I rise to support this Bill. I rise to support the Bill not because I am a part of their alliance, but because I feel that this is one of the major lacunae left over in our educational system which the Hon. Minister has tried to fill up. This is a very important point because those children, who are suffering from some disabilities, are segregated from rest of the childhood universe.

(Contd. by 2m -- KS)

2m/2:50/ks-klg

SHRI D. BANDYOPADHYAY (contd.): Therefore, they require a special treatment. I fully agree with the previous speaker that a normal common school may not be suitable for them to be integrated in the school system, for the simple reason that school authorities may not have the required pedagogy, the required methodology, to bring them up to the level of the others. So, while they could be in the same common system, they should be treated slightly separately so that 95 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 they can come up to the level of the others and there is no differentiation because of the disability that they suffer.

Sir, the Minister has given a list of what the disabilities could be.

But, a major disability is, as Shivanand Tiwariji has mentioned, the disability of mal-nutrition. Forty-four per cent of our children are mal- nourished. The Prime Minister is on record having said – I saw it in the newspaper – that it is a national shame. Now, if 44 per cent of our children are mal-nourished, how will they absorb the things that are being taught to them. Development of the body is so impaired that they cannot absorb what is being taught. So, I would request,

Sir, the Government, through you, that mal-nourishment or, at least, acute mal-nourishment, should be accepted as a disability and they should be treated separately. I want only this because, otherwise, it is a very good Bill; it is trying to fill a gap, which is very much required.

I do not want to speak for a long time on this. But there is one point which is important.

You can't have education with a hungry stomach. Now, this is where we have been failing again and again. India today is in the 68th position in a list of around 80 countries having hunger and mal- 96 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 nutrition. So, in that case, how would you expect hungry children to be educated? There is this Mid-Day Meal Programme. I do admit, whether it is good or bad, it is being administered and, in fact, that has stopped, in many cases, the drop-out ratio, which is a very important thing to happen. Sir, I would suggest, through you, to the hon. Minister that, when these special disabilities are considered, you should include mal-nutrition as one of them and make a provision for giving appropriate nourishment to the children who are mal-nourished because it will give them a great feeling and, to a large extent, starvation and hunger will be reduced. Education is the hunger of the mind and hunger in the stomach is a hunger of the body. So, without the hunger being met in both ways, you cannot cure the one without the other.

Therefore, Sir, while I fully support the Bill, I would request, through you, the hon. Minister to consider bringing in mal- nourishment as a special disability and provide for nourishment so that children who are mal-nourished and who, because of that, are suffering from various other disabilities, can come up and be along with the others. 97 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 With these words, Sir, I support the Bill.

(Ends)

ी नरेश चन्दर् अगर्वाल (उर देश): उपसभाध्यक्ष महोदय, धन्यवाद, जो

आपने मुझे माननीय िशक्षा मंतर्ी ारा रखे गए इस अमडमट पर बोलने का मौका

िदया। ीमन योग्य और िववादी िशक्षा मंतर्ी जी, मन े िववादी शद इसिलए भी

कहा, हमारे बड़े भाई ह, आप िशक्षा को एक ारूप म, एक नीित म लाना तो

चाहते ह, लेिकन शायद तय नहीं कर पा रहे ह िक इसकी शुरूआत कहा ं से कर।

माननीय डा0 लोिहया ने जो करीब 63 साल पहले सबको िशक्षा के अिधकार की

बात कही थी, तब उनकी सोच यह थी िक समाज के हर वग र् को िशक्षा दी जाय।

पता नहीं हम क्य टुकड़ म इन चीज को ला रहे ह? मेरा तो यह मानना है, वैसे

तो आप कानून के बहुत बड़े ज्ञाता है, मेरा मानना यह है िक बहुत से कानून बड़े

भावी नहीं होते ह। मन े हरदम कहा है िक कम कानून भावी होते ह, ज्यादा

कानून भावी नहीं होते ह। इसी तरह म यह कह रहा हूँ िक िशक्षा बहुत कार

की होने के कारण भावी नहीं हो पा रही है, अगर िशक्षा को सीिमत तरीके से

लाया जाए, पूरे देश की नीित को सोच कर लाया जाए, तो शायद यह िशक्षा

भावी होगी और िजन लोग को हम िशक्षा का लाभ पहुंचाना चाहते ह उन लोग

को िशक्षा िमल जाएगी।

(1एन/एनबी पर जारी)

98 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 NB/2N/2.55

(उपसभाध्यक्ष (डा. ई.एम. सुदशर्न नाीयपन) पीठासीन हुए)

ी नरेश चन्दर् अगर्वाल (कर्मागत) : आपकी अपनी सोच है, आप सोिचए। बहुत

िदन से Education for All की बात हो रही है। दो चीज ह - Education for All and Food for All. ये िववािदत चीज ह। म िववािदत इसिलए कह रहा हूं,

क्यिक UPA इनको नहीं ला पा रही है। इन दोन पर बहुत िवचार हुआ। यह तय

िकया गया िक इस देश म सबको िशक्षा दगे और सबको खाना दगे। आप कोई भी

िरपोटर् उठाकर देख लीिजए। योजना आयोग ने तो गरीब की जो पिरभाषा दी,

उससे पूरा देश आचयचिकतर् रह गया िक गावं म 22 रुपए पाने वाला यि और शहर

म 28 रुपए पाने वाला यि अमीर हो गया। हम सबको सटर्ल हॉल की क टीन म छू ट

िमलती है, उसके बावजूद हम अमीर नहीं हो पा रहे ह, तो गावं म रहने वाला यि 22

रुपए म कै से अमीर हो पाएगा? म कह रहा हूं िक आप इस चीज पर िवचार किरए।

आिखर Food for All and Education for All आप क्य नहीं लाते? क्या

किठनाई है? राज्य तैयार ह। आपने राज्य को भेजा, राज्य ने इस पर आपको अपने

ताव और सुझाव भेजे। मुख्य मसला यह था िक फाइनस कै से होगा? आपने कहा िक

50-50 परसट करो, राज्य 90 और 10 परसट की बात कर रहे थे, िफर 80 और 20

परसट पर राजी हुए। क्य नहीं आप राज्य के मुख्य मितर्यं और िशक्षा मंितर्य की

बठकै बुलाते? अगर बुलाई भी हो, तो formal मत किरए, बिक एक ऐसी बठकै

बुलाइए, िजसम कोई चीज तय हो सके । 99 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 उपसभाध्यक्ष जी, आज हम 64 साल के बाद ढूंढकर disabled बच्च के

िलए एक अमडमट ला रहे ह िक जो मानिसक रूप से िवकलागं बच्चे ह, उन

बच्च को हम इस अमडमट के माध्यम से िशक्षा दगे। म पूछना चाहता हूं िक आप

उनको िशक्षा दगे, तो उनके िलए कू ल कहा ं से लाएंगे, उनके िलए टर्ड टीचसर्

कहा ं से लाएंगे? अगर आप उनको सामान्य बच्च के कू ल म डाल दगे, तो

जगहंसाई म बच्चे घर चले जाएंगे, क्यिक बच्चे, तो बच्चे ह, िकस पर क्या

कमट कर द। आपको सामािजक पिरदृय भी देखना पड़ेगा। अगर आप

सामािजक पिरदृय देखे िबना कानून लाग ू करते चले गए, तो यह भावी नहीं

होगा। आप कहगे िक म एजुके शन िमिनटर था, म disabled बच्च के िलए यह

िबल लाया था, लेिकन सख्ती से वह िबल लागू हुआ या नहीं, यह हम देखना

पड़ेगा। इसके िलए कहा ं से कालेज आएंगे, कहा ं से िशक्षक आएंगे, पैसे का

िसटम क्या होगा, उन बच्च के खाने का िसटम क्या होगा और अंत म उनको

कहा ं रोजगार िमलेगा? अगर आप उनकी िशक्षा के साथ रोजगार की गारंटी नहीं

दे रहे ह, तो िफर disabled बच्चे कहा ं पढ़ने जाएगं े? कौन मा-ं बाप अपने disabled बच्चे को पढ़ने के िलए भेज रहा है? वैसे भी वे इन्ह अपने पर बोझ

समझते ह। लड़का तो िफर भी ठीक है, यिद लड़की हो, तो वह बहुत बड़ा बोझ

है। इसिलए जब आप इसका जवाब द, तो कम से कम इन बात को पट कर द

तािक सदन के माध्यम से आम जनता के बीच यह संदेश पहुंच जाए िक माननीय 100 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 किपल िसबल जी देश के सबसे योग्य मतर्ीं ह, यिद व े कोई चीज लाए ह, तो वह

वातिवक रूप म पिरणत हुई है और इससे उन्ह लाभ होगा।

माननीय मंतर्ी जी आज िकतनी तरह की एजुके शन है। आप देख लीिजए

िक इस देश म, खास तौर से उर देश म Convent, CBSE, ICSE, State

Board, Primary Education, Sanskrit, Urdu, ौढ़ िशक्षा, अनौपचािरक

िशक्षा आिद के बारे म हम जानते ह। अब इसके बाद और िकतनी िशक्षाएं ह?

आिखर इन सब िशक्षाओं म आप िकस िशक्षा म इस अमडमट को लागू करगे?

आप जो अपना अमडमट लागू कर रहे ह, उसे आप िकन-िकन क्षेतर् म लागू

करगे, िकतने ितशत म लागू करगे? म िफर कहता हूं, जो मन े शुरू म कहा िक

हमारे देश म जो इतने कार की एजुके शन दी जा रही है, वह एजुके शन िसटम

के ढाचं े को िबगाड़ रही है। आप िकसी भी देश म चले जाइए, एजुके शन की एक

लग्वजे है और एक ही कार है। देश के िकसी भी भाग म पढ़ा हुआ बच्चा, पूरे

देश म समान माना जाता है। आज इन तमाम एजुके शन िसटस से पढ़े हुए

बच्च की क्या हालत हो रही है? कोई राज्य सरकार उनकी िडगर्ी को हाई-

कू ल के बराबर घोिषत कर रही है, कोई राज्य सरकार कु छ और घोिषत कर

रही ह। म आपको बता सकता हूं िक उदर्ू की तमाम ऐसी िडिगर्या ं ह, िजनको

उर देश की सरकार ने अब हाई कू ल और इंटर के समान घोिषत िकया है।

इससे पहले मदरसे से पढ़े हुए बच्चे िनकल जाते थे, उनकी िडगर्ी की कहीं कोई

मान्यता ही नहीं थी, उनको कहा ं नौकरी िमलेगी? िकसी क्षेतर् म व े apply नहीं 101 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 कर सकते थे। यह हमारी िशक्षा का िसटम था। यह ठीक है िक यह state subject है, लेिकन state subject होने के साथ-साथ अगर Central Act बन

जाए, तो बहुत अच्छा होगा। म यह नहीं कहता हूं िक state autonomy पर भारत

सरकार भावी हो।

(2O/SC पर जारी)

-nb/sc-tdb/3.00/2o

ी नरेश चन्दर् अगर्वाल (कर्मागत) : म इससे िबकु ल सहमत नहीं हूं। टेट

आटोनॉमस है, टेट का अपना आटोनॉमस सबजेक्ट होना चािहए। म मंतर्ी

महोदय से कहना चाहता हूं िक आप राज्य के मंितर्य को बुलाकर उन टेट्स

के सबजेक्ट को कं कर्ीट करके ऐसा बना दीिजए, कं टर्ी म एक ऐसा एजुके शन

िसटम बना दीिजए िक देश के हर बच्चे को उस िसटम के माध्यम से िनकलना

चािहए, िजससे वह पूरे देश म अपनी िडगर्ी को मान्यता दे सके । उसके बाद देश

के िकसी भी िहसे म जब वह पढ़कर जाए, तो यह न कहलाए िक यह उर

भारत का छातर् है या दिक्षण भारत का छातर् है। वह यह कहलाए िक वह

िहन्दुतान का छातर् है और पूरे िवव म हमारी िडगर्ी को मान्यता िमले। म चाहता

हूं िक आप इन चीज़ पर िवचार किरए और िवचार करने के बाद आप सामूिहक

रूप से एक एजुजेशन िसटम लाएं। सर, एजुके शन टू ऑल का मतलब यही था

िक सभी ेणी के लोग को उसम लाया जाए। म मंतर्ी जी से जानना चाहता हूं िक

एजुके शन टू ऑल म क्या िदक्कत है, राज्य की तरफ से क्या िदक्कत आ रही 102 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 है? राज्य ने तो अपने सुझाव िदए, हर राज्य ने उसको वीकृ ित दी, कोई ऐसा

राज्य नहीं था िजसने एजुके शन टू ऑल को वीकृ ित न दी हो। जब कोई राज्य

आपि नहीं कर रहा है, उनके िसफर् फाइनिशयल पोज़स ह, तब आप इसको

वीकार किरए और इसकी घोषणा कर तािक देश की जनता म कम से कम यह

सदं ेश तो जाए िक देश की मौजूदा सरकार िनणयर् ले लेती है।

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (DR. E.M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN):

Agrawalji, the time is up. Try to conclude.

ी नरेश चन्दर् अगर्वाल : ीम, म समात कर रहा हूं। म के वल सुझाव दे रहा

हूं, चेता भी रहा हूं िक आपने िदली के चुनाव देख िलए ह, यपीू के भी चुनाव

देख िलए ह, 2014 आ रहा है, अगर आप देश के और चुनाव देखना चाहते ह तो

वह भी देख लीिजए। आप िनणर्य लेने की िथित म आइए तािक देश की जनता

को यह सदं ेश जाए िक के न्दर् की सरकार अिनणयर् की सरकार नहीं है, िनणयर्

लेने वाली सरकार है, वरना जो िथित होने जा रही है, उसके बारे म म आपको

अभी से चेता रहा हूं। आप इस बात को समझ लीिजए। हम उर भारत के लोग

ह, जो कहते ह, वह सही कहते ह क्यिक हम राजनीित म पैदा हुए ह, राजनीित

म रहते ह और हम 24 घंटे राजनीित करते ह। म आपको के वल यही संदेश देना

चाहता हूं। धन्यवाद।

(समात) 103 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 SHRI TIRUCHI SIVA (TAMIL NADU): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I rise to support this Bill. Sir, the Eighty-Sixth Amendment to the

Constitution, inserted after article 21, says that no person shall be deprived of his life or personal liberty except according to the procedure established by law. The insertion after the amendment was that, “21(A) the State shall provide free and compulsory education to all children of the age of 6 to 14 years in such a manner as the State may be law determine.”

Sir, consequent upon the enactment of the Eighty-Sixth

Amendment, 2002, the Government introduced and enacted the Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education Act, 2009, which provides for free and compulsory education to all children of the age 6 to 14 years. Sir, subsequent to that, the Right of Children to Free and

Compulsory Education (Amendment) Bill, 2010 was introduced on

July 30, 2010, and it was referred to the Standing Committee for its

Report. Sir, the Standing Committee has given some recommendations. This Bill includes some children who are already in disadvantaged group, and now it provides for some provisions for children of disabilities. Sir, first of all, I would like to say that the term 104 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 ‘disability’ has to be changed. When we were ruling, our leader Dr.

Kalaignar Karunanidhi was the Chief Minister, he called those children as ‘differently-abled’. It is because the term ‘disability’ itself causes a sort of inferiority complex in the minds of children as well as their parents. So, this is our suggestion to the hon. Minister that the term could be changed.

Sir, the Persons with Disabilities (Equal Opportunities,

Protection of Rights and Full Participation) Act, 1995 (Act 1 of 1996) does not cover children with cerebral palsy, mental retardation, autism and mental disabilities, who are covered under the National

Trust for Welfare of Persons with Autism, Cerebral Palsy, Mental

Retardation and Multiple Disabilities Act, 1999 (Act 44 of 1999).

(Contd. by 2p-sss)

SSS/2P/3.05

SHRI TIRUCHI SIVA (CONTD): Accordingly, now it is proposed that children with cerebral palsy, mental retardation, autism and multiple disabilities are also explicitly covered under the Right of Children to

Free and Compulsory Education Act, 2009. Sir, may I bring to the notice of the hon. Minister that the Standing Committee’s Report, very 105 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 particularly, refers to a complaint called dyslexia. Dyslexia complaint describes the complaint as abnormal difficulty in reading and spelling caused by brain condition. Sir, I think, the Minister should take into consideration that this is a major thing that has to be included in this because children who cannot speak like another child when they are in school have an inferiority complex and this sort of differently-abled children have to be included in this. So, the Committee has recommended that there should be an option of better equipped schools for disabled children, especially in rural areas. Yoga classes and naturopathy may be used to benefit the children. So, the muscular dystrophy children could also be taken into consideration.

They are also suffering and they just live like a vegetable and the condition of the parents is much worse than that of the children who are affected by this. So, when the Bill attempts to include some category of children who are affected by some disabilities, they have to take these things also into consideration. Sir, my colleague, Mr.

Bandyopadhyay, rightly mentioned that a stomach which is empty will not be prepared to learn. The State Governments have an equal responsibility. I would like to share, Sir, with this hon. House and the 106 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Members that in Tamil Nadu we were the innovators. We started with a ‘mid-day meal’ scheme when Kamarajar was Chief Minister and it attained too many dimensions. It went into metamorphosis and previously when our Leader was Chief Minister, it came with giving five eggs to the children. So, we also introduced a scheme that girls who have completed eighth standard will be given an incentive of Rs.

25,000 for marriage, which means girl children, at least for that sake, would be interested to go to schools. Now this sort of ‘mid-day meal’ scheme, now the ‘nutrition meal’ scheme, giving eggs to the children or banana to the children has brought the children to the school. Sir, the Government has to take these things into consideration that apart from enacting laws, finding out the ways of implementation is the most important thing that Government has to do. I appreciate our hon.

Minister, and especially the UPA, after 60 years of Independence, the

Right to Education Act for children was enacted. Though it is late, we are proud that it was enacted during our regime, and subsequently, many amendments are being brought and especially today, this amendment Bill which has been brought brings in some categories of children who have disabilities. I think this sort of attempt wipes out 107 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 the complex which may crop in the minds of the children and the parents, and I hope the Minister would take into consideration those two complaints which are referred to here.

(Ends)

SHRI BAISHNAB PARIDA (ODISHA): Sir, I express my thanks for allowing me to speak on this important subject. While I support the

Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education (Amendment)

Bill, 2010, I want to point out certain problems which we are facing in the field of education.

(Contd. by NBR/2Q)

-SSS/NBR-ASC/2Q/3.10.

SHRI BAISHNAB PARIDA (CONTD.): Right to Education is a

Fundamental Right of every child in the country. The children who are disabled require a special attention and they also require special arrangement for their education, because they are physically and mentally disabled. They cannot be educated through our general form or method of education. They require different instruments and methods of education. So, in every school, there should be separate arrangements for disabled children. In our country education and 108 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 health systems are in shambled. With these two systems, the fate of people in everyday life and the future generations is connected. But, we are very late i.e., after 64 years of our Independence, now, we are paying attention to this national or fundamental problem. In our country, we have allowed different types and systems of education. In some schools, quality of education, curriculum and infrastructure is much higher than the other types of schools, especially Government schools. In Government schools we do not have enough or adequate number of trained teachers and infrastructure. The system is so poor that children, instead of getting proper education, they are made less educated or less efficient. As a result, neither they can face, in their future life, any competition nor come up in life. They are not getting higher form of education or good quality education. So, from the very beginning, we are dividing -- the society is already divided -- the children. There is discrimination, disparity, gaps -- social and economic -- among the people. But, in the field of education, from the very beginning, we are creating in the minds of children that they belong to Government schools, they belong to the lower strata of society and the private schools are meant only for the higher strata of 109 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 society. So, we are dividing our society through our monetary and financial policies. The gap between rich and poor is growing. But, unfortunately, in education system also we are following the same policy. That is very dangerous for our society. It should be stopped.

The Government should pay a proper attention on this aspect.

Many of my friends have already mentioned about the poverty and education. Definitely, poverty is the main hindrance in getting education. The proposed amendment, which the hon. Minister has brought before the House, is a very noble effort. But, poverty is the main hindrance in implementing this policy. The economic and social differentiation will also stand as a stumbling block in the path. Only high ambitions or merely passing this legislation will not solve the problems.

Another aspect I would like to bring, through you, Sir, to the notice of the hon. Minister is about the child labour.

(CONTD. BY USY "2R")

USY/2R/3.15

SHRI BAISHNAB PARIDA (CONTD.): What will you do about the child labour? There are about one crore child labourers in our 110 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 country. We have banned child labour. It is a very good thing. But what about their lives? What about their future? What about their education? We don't have any suitable planning for them. Similarly, disabled children of the society also needed to be taken care of. That aspect must be given primary attention so that we can solve their problems.

My next point is this. You have pronounced that the expenditure to implement this would be borne on 50:50 basis by the Centre and the States. But there are many States, in our country, which are very poor. They can't afford to share this burden. My State Orissa is also one of those poor States of our country. We cannot spare funds for this. But we definitely want that our children must get proper education. But States do not have that much financial capacity to meet this requirement.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (DR. E.M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN):

Mr. Parida, your time is over. You have taken two minutes more.

SHRI BAISHNAB PARIDA: So, Sir, this point should be reconsidered. Thank you very much for having given me this opportunity. (Ends) 111 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 SHRI A.W. RABI BERNARD (TAMIL NADU): Sir, I rise to express our views on the Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education

(Amendment) Bill, 2010, which proposes to explicitly include the children with disabilities. We support the amendment wholeheartedly.

Our leader, Bharat Ratna Dr. M.G.R., in one of his movies in

1969, said that (* Hon. Member may fill Tamil quotation), which means, God, who is worshipped in temples as idols, manifests himself in schools of learning, as education. In fact, Dr. M.G.R. used his profession as a vehicle to empower the people through education.

His successor, my beloved leader, the hon. Chief Minister of Tamil

Nadu, Madam Jayalalitha, has declared in a recent 'vision statement' that Tamil Nadu will provide the best infrastructure services in India in terms of universal access to education.

Madam Jayalalitha has drawn a roadmap to fulfill this vision by providing access to schools, teachers, quality education and by putting in place adequate infrastructure to position Tamil Nadu as the number one State in the country. Hence, we welcome and support this Bill and the subsequent amendments. 112 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 The Government of Madam Jayalalitha, in Tamil Nadu, is one of the pioneers in implementing the Right of Children to Free and

Compulsory Education.

The present net enrollment rate of 99.63 per cent at primary level and 98.88 per cent at upper primary level will further grow. Moreover, the aim of the AIADMK in Tamil Nadu is to achieve 100 per cent enrollment in the next academic year. To achieve this target and to assure quality education to all, Madam Jayalalitha has allocated more than 14,553 crores of rupees to the school education department.

The amendment proposes to explicitly cover the children with cerebral palsy, mental retardation, autism and multiple disabilities. When such children are enrolled, the schools would require additional infrastructure, some special arrangements involving financial inputs may also be needed. I hope the Government will provide the necessary assistance to the schools.

I recommend a special clinical training to the teaching and non- teaching staff of schools to take care of those children of God. The

Central financial assistance to implement this Bill is inadequate.

The average annual cost for a school-going child, in Tamil Nadu, 113 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 isaround Rs. 10,000. But the Central assistance has taken it only to the level of Rs. 7500 only. I request the Government to adequately compensate the State Governments.

With these words, I support this Bill and welcome the amendments.

(Ends)

(Followed by 2s)

-USY/PK-PSV/2S/3.20

ी संजय राउत (महाराटर्): महोदय, आज हम एक अत्यंत महत्वपूण र् िबल

“The Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education

(Amendment) Bill, 2010” पर चचार् करने जा रहे ह। I fully support this

Bill. इसका िवरोध करने का वैसा कोई कारण नहीं है। इस कानून को लागू

करने के बाद भारत की गणना उन 135 देश म होने लगेगी, जहा ँ बच्च की

िशक्षा मूल अिधकार म शािमल है और यह एक अच्छी बात है।

के न्दर् सरकार ने 2009 म ‘िशक्षा का अिधकार कानून’ पािरत िकया था।

यह कानून सिवधानं के सेक्शन 21(ए) के तहत बनाया गया था। इसके

मुतािबक 6 से 14 वष र् की आयु के बच्च को free and compulsory िशक्षा देने का

सरकारी िजमा रहेगा। अब इस कानून म जो िफजीकली हिडकै ड बच्चे ह और

जो मटली िडसेबड बच्चे ह, उनके िलए खास ावधान िकया गया है। अभी 114 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 िशवानन्द ितवारी साहब ने कहा िक जो कु पोिषत बच्चे ह, उनकी समया सबसे

गहन है तथा कु पोषण की वजह से जो किठनाई बच्च म पैदा होती ह, जो

बीमािरया ँ पैदा होती ह, उनके िलए खास ध्यान देने की जरूरत है। जैसे,

महाराटर् म िवदभ र् इलाके म, खास करके मेलघाट एिरया म, सबसे ज्यादा

कु पोिषत बच्चे होते ह। हमारे यहा ँ ठाणे, जोिक मुबई से लगा हुआ एक शहर

है, ठाणे के गर्ामीण िजले म सबसे ज्यादा कु पोिषत बच्चे ह और वहा ँ के बच्चे

कू ल नहीं जा पाते ह। उनके िलए कू ल नहीं ह और न ही कोई अन्य सुिवधाएँ

ह। इसके अलावा ऐसे जो बच्चे पैदा होते ह, उनकी टर्िंनगे के िलए कोई सुिवधा

नहीं है। यह free and compulsory िशक्षा का जो कानून है, वह ऐसे बच्च के

िलए ज्यादा महत्वपूणर् है और उनके िलए सरकार को ज्यादा ध्यान देना चािहए।

सर, जब हम इस कानून को देख रहे ह, तो इसम कु छ खािमया ँ ह। इसम

3 से 6 वष र् तक की आयु वाले बच्च के सवाल को छु आ नहीं गया है। जैसे- बाल

मजदूर, सड़क पर अपनी िजन्दगी िबताने वाले बच्चे और अवासी मजदूर के

बच्चे ह। हमारे महाराटर् के मराठवाड़ा म गन्ना काटने वाले मजदूर ह और ईंट

भ म काम करने वाले मजदूर ह, उनके जो बच्चे ह, व े भी िशक्षा के अिधकार से

बाहर रहते ह। भारत म लगभग 2 करोड़ 80 लाख बाल मजदूर ह। व े बच्चे

मजदूरी कर रहे ह, तो जािहर है िक व े पढ़ाई नहीं कर रहे ह।

सर, देश के लगभग 180 िजले िंहसक सघषं से भािवत ह और यहा ँ के

लाख बच्चे कू ल जाने से वंिचत ह। हमारे महाराटर् म गढ़िचरौली और चदर्ापं ुर 115 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 अब सबसे ज्यादा नक्सलाइट-भािवत िडिटर्क्ट्स ह और वहा ँ के कू ल हमेशा

दहशत के कारण बंद रहते ह। इसी तरह कमीरी पिडतं के जो बच्चे ह,

उनको बार-बार अपना घर बदलना पड़ता है, भागना पड़ता है, उनके बच्च के

िलए भी अलग से एक ावधान करना पड़ेगा। ये तो बच्चे ह और ये वयं क्या

करगे?

राटर्ीय बाल आयोग का अनुमान है िक छीसगढ़ के िसफर् सात िजल म

ही 40 हजार बच्चे कू ल नहीं जा रहे ह। उससे अनुमान लगता है िक बाकी 173

िजल म इनकी सख्यां िकतनी होगी। अके ले िदली म लगभग एक लाख

मजदूर-िभखारी बच्चे िशक्षा से विचतं ह। मुबई जैसे शहर म भी ऐसे िभखारी

बच्चे ह, जो कू ल नहीं जा पाते ह। उनके िलए भी कु छ ावधान करना पड़ेगा।

दूसरी बात यह है िक आपने िशक्षा का अिधकार कानून बना िलया, कू ल

भी आप बना लगे, लेिकन देश म अभी भी 15 लाख िशक्षक की कमी है। हालत

यह है िक िशक्षक की िनयुि के िलए सी.बी.एस.ई. ने जो अिखल भारतीय

परीक्षा आयोिजत की, उसम बैठे लगभग साढ़े सात लाख परीक्षािर्थय म से िसफर्

90 हजार ही सफल हो पाए। तो आप िशक्षक कहा ँ से लाएँगे, यह भी देखना

पड़ेगा।

तीसरी बात सरकारी कू ल की है। वहा ँ infrastructure नहीं है। ाइवेट

कू ल, जो आज सबसे बड़ा िबजनेस या सबसे बड़ा धंधा बन गया है, वहा ँ आज 116 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 भी अमीर और गरीब की जो खाई है, उसे आप कानून बनाने के बाद भी दूर नहीं

कर सकते।

(2टी/वी.एन.के . पर कर्मश:)

-PK/PB-VNK/2t/3.25

ी संजय राउत (कर्मागत): सर, दूसरी बात यह है िक योजना आयोग का

मानना है िक िशक्षा के अिधकार कानून को लागू करने के िलए अगले पाचं साल

म 4.5 लाख करोड़ रुपए का खचार् आ सकता है। म यह जानना चाहता हूँ िक

आप यह रकम कहा ं से जुटाएंगे?

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (DR. E.M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN):

Mr. Raut, I would like to remind you that there is one more Member from your Party.

ी संजय राउत: उसके बारे म भी आपको सोचना पड़ेगा। यह कानून अच्छा है,

लेिकन इसम जो कु छ खािमया ं ह या और जो बात इसम आनी चािहए, जैसा िक

और माननीय सदय ने कहा है, अगर उन पर िवचार होता है, तो िशक्षा के

अिधकार से सबं िधतं एक मजबूत कानून का िनमार्ण होगा। ऐसा होने से सबको

एक समान िशक्षा का अिधकार िमल जाएगा और अमीर तथा गरीब के बीच की

खाई दूर हो जाएगी। धन्यवाद।

(समात) 117 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 SHRI V.P. SINGH BADNORE (RAJASTHAN): Sir, I stand to speak on the Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education

(Amendment) Bill, 2010.

Let me first and foremost say that after nearly 60 years’ of

Independence, Parliament passed the landmark Bill of RTE in 2009 and subsequently in 2010. The Constitutional mandate to provide free and compulsory education to all children till they attain the age of 14 years was just ignored in practice for decades together. The 86th

Constitutional Amendment came only in 2002 after a Supreme Court

Ruling and the RTE in April, 2009.

Sir, I wholeheartedly support this Bill that schools should not refuse those special children, which include a range of kids starting with physically-challenged, visually-impaired, hearing-impaired, spastics and those with down-syndrome, learning-disability, autism, dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia and such conditions. But having said this, first, I must say something about the words used because this is a medical terminology, and when it is a medical terminology, people all over the world have changed to some different names. You know this is a very sensitive area, and I am really surprised that the 118 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Minister who has so much wisdom has not used the right words in this

Bill. It used to be ‘handicapped’ at one time, if you remember. Then, it became ‘physically challenged’. Now, they are all called ‘differently- abled’. Now, when they are called ‘differently-abled’ all over the world, we are still using the word ‘disability’. Now, in the medical terminology, keeping in view the disability and the sensitiveness of this, I will urge the Minister who has so much wisdom, who speaks such good English and who knows everything about the educational systems in different countries to change this, because ‘physically challenged’ now all over the world is called ‘differently-abled.’ So, I will urge the Minister to do this.

Sir, I am happy to say that the Minister realized the moral and legal obligations which were there and the matter has been addressed because just passing the Bill is not everything. In the schools, even if they get admissions, what will you do about the ramp to get these people onto the school, to get the special toilets in the schools for them? And, Sir, dyslexia has not been mentioned in this.

(Contd. by 2u/SKC)

119 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 2u/3.30/skc

SHRI V.P. SINGH BADNORE (contd.): Sir, dyslexia is not so much of a disability. So, if dyslexia is to be tackled, we need to have special coaching and special teachers. There is a training programme meant for dyslexia. So, dyslexia should be mentioned here and something must be done about it.

Sir, I feel that this Bill is urban-centric. We have talked about 25 per cent reservation in schools. Now, how much does it really mean in the unaided schools of the country? It works out to only five to seven per cent in the whole country. We are rural-centric. What about the rural side of it? I do not want to go into it, but everybody has been talking about it. If one visits my constituency, he would find that there are schools which don’t have the furniture or the infrastructure, and there are no classrooms. The Minister is talking about norms and standards and that the teacher-pupil ratio must be

35 or 45:1, but I would show him schools which have no classrooms and where one teacher is taking care of 200 children. He has not concentrated on that. He is concentrating on this Bill only because it is a populist move, to show the people that he has done something. 120 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 But it is a right mix, I agree, and even the hon. Supreme Court has given a landmark judgement in its favour. I am all for it.

Sir, the other problem is that of the entry level. The Minister has talked about admission of children in the age group of six to 14 years.

When we talk of admissions to the First Class, there is Nursery and

Kindergarten before that. All the schools that he is talking about have already admitted them. They have already got admissions into those schools, and they continue there. So, where is that 25 per cent reservation going to start from? How will he do that? There are flaws like these and there is ambiguity here. He has not been able to look into those problems. I am glad that the Minister has, on various occasions, talked about the neighbourhood schools and, while talking about the neighbourhood schools, at least, the boarding schools have been left out, and they should be. In the school that I come from, where I am also on the management side, we have children with the right mix. The children are not only from the area that the school is in; the school has children from the North and the South, and that is the sort of mix that they have always had. They also have scholarships 121 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 with the help of which people who could not afford those schools have been given admission. We have been doing this.

Sir, the other issue that I want to raise here is a very important one. The Minister has talked about 25 per cent reservation and the subvention to be given by the Government, or at the State level; this is a subject in the Concurrent List. What I am trying to say is that all these schools in the urban areas, especially in Delhi and other metropolis, cost lots of money. The schools have not been given plots that have come free of cost; they have bought it. It is very expensive. What I am trying to say is that 25 per cent of the money which came to the Government could have been kept as a fund to compensate for this 25 per cent reservation and for the children who get into these schools. That would have been a good idea. These are some of the new ideas which the Minister must think about. Only then could this subvention for 25 per cent reservation, which is very, very difficult, be taken care of, because today, running a school costs a lot of money. Admission costs a lakh and a lakh-and-a-half in some schools, even without boarding, and if the Government gives a subvention of 25 per cent, it runs into crores of rupees. They should 122 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 rather spend that money on the rural areas where there are no classrooms, no teachers, no furniture and no books. Also, with this

25 per cent reservation and with students coming in, some students get displaced. What about those boys and girls who have been displaced? They too belong to the same society. How would you take care of them?

(contd. at 2w/hk)

HK/2w/3.35

SHRI V.P. SINGH BADNORE (CONTD.): So, this is the thinking that has to be put into this Bill. But it has not been done. Otherwise, I feel that this Bill, although it has come late, is a good Bill. We support it whole-heartedly.

(Ends)

SHRI DEREK O'BRIEN (WEST BENGAL): Sir, I rise here to support this Bill. Through you, I would like to give a gentle message to the hon. Minister. I would like to dwell, in fact, on one point, that is, tail wags the dog. 'Tail wags the dog' simply means that an item of minor importance can suddenly become very, very important. We don't want that to happen with this amendment. I am referring to the 123 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 specific amendment. It is very nice that there were so much talk on differently-abled. So, I will not dwell on that because much has been spoken on that subject. But I would like to talk on the second amendment, which is to do with School Management Committees and their role in minority institutions. I would be a slightly biased here maybe because I am not referring to all minority institutions, but referring to hundreds of popular and hallowed institutions run by the

Christian missionaries across the country, where so many of us send our children and so many of our grandfathers sent their children. The issue here is: how will it work as per the new amendment, or, how it is supposed to work. That is why I said, 'tail wags the dog'. There is an advisory function which the School Management Committees will now have as per this new amendment. The School Management, as per the new Bill, will comprises elected representatives of the local authority, parents or guardians of children admitted to the schools, and three-fourths of these members should be the parents or guardians with 50 per cent women. It is very good. The issue here is not about the composition of the School Management Committee, which has an advisory role. Through you, Sir, I would like to share 124 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 with the Minister a concern, and it is a genuine concern. Suppose there is a minority school run by the Management Committee of that minority school. Then we have the School Management Committee, as I just described, with local representatives, etc., etc. Now, what may happen when this School Management Committee starts advising the Management Committee, which is run by the minority institution?

Let me be a little pessimistic and assume. Suppose they make, over a period of two or three years, five or six different recommendations and every one of those recommendations are thrown out, let us say, by the school run by the Jesuits or by the Silesians, or for that matter, by any order, this may become an issue of major conflict because we do not know then how this will manifest itself, whether the dog will be wagging the tail or whether the tail will be wagging the dog. Sir, with these few words, and with this single concern, I thought it would be my duty to share this concern, in the implementation of this, with the rest of the House.

(Ends)

(Followed by 2x/KSK)

125 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 2X/HMS-KSK/3.40

ी मोहमद अदीब (उर देश) : अभी देरेक साहब ने जो कहा, उसी को म

आगे बढ़ाना चाहता हूं। हमारे िमिनटर साहब ने िबल पेश करने से पहले दो

क्लैरीिफके शंस िदए। एक तो यह कहा िक मदरसा और पाठशालाएं यानी जहा ं religious teaching होती है, वे exempted ह, लेिकन म उनसे जानना चाहता

हूं िक काटीं ूशन के आिर्टकल 30 के तह मायनॉिरटीज को ये राइट है िक वे

अपने इंटीूशंस establish कर और चलाएं। वहा ं आप कमेटी बना रहे ह,

इसका मतलब यह है िक मायनॉिरटी इंटीूशंस का अब यह राइट नहीं रहेगा

िक व े अपने इंटीूशंस चला सक । कहा यह गया िक अभी बहुत टाइम बाद

यह landmark जजमट आया है, T.M.A. Pai और St. Stephen म भी यह कहा

गया िक मायनॉिरटी का इंटीूशन चलाने का राइट मायनॉिरटी को है। अभी

हमको यह शक लगता है िक हमारा यह राइट िछन जाने की पोजीशन है।

(उपसभाध्यक्ष (ो0 पी0जे0 कु िरयन) पीठासीन हुए)

हमारे फािज़ल दोत ने यह कहा िक यह पूरा िबल, ऐसा लगता है िक

शहर के िलए बना है। िंहदुतान के लोग देहात म रहते ह। वहा ं कोई मसला

नहीं है, लेिकन िंहदुतान के शहर म इस व न जमीन ह और न कू ल बनाने

की और जगह रह गयी है। के न्दर्ीय िवालय, जहा ं बच्चे पढ़ सकते थे, वहा ं का

गवनर्मट ने अपना कोटा खत्म कर िदया तािक गरीब बच्चे वहा ं भेजे जा सक । हम

लोग का भी कोटा छीन िलया गया था, लेिकन जहा ं तक पढ़ाने की बात है, अब 126 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 मंतर्ी जी ने भी अपना कोटा खत्म कर िदया। आप तालीम की बात करते ह,

तालीम के साथ अगर तरिबयत नहीं होगी तो समाज नहीं बन सकता है। तालीम

बहुत जरूरी चीज है, लेिकन तरिबयत होना भी बड़ा जरूरी है। िजस तरह से

पैसे की जरूरत होती है, आज बहुत लोग के पास जमीन से पैसा आया है और

आप देिखए िक क्या समाज बन गया है? तो जहा ं तालीम पर जोर है, वहा ं

तरिबयत पर भी जोर होना बड़ा जरूरी है। उस के िलए भी कोई-न-कोई जिरया

िनकाला जाए। मेरे मज़हब म belief यह है िक हमारे यहा ं सब से बड़ा फिरता

िजसे सब से ज्यादा इम है, उसे हम शैतान कहते ह क्यिक सब से ज्यादा इम

उसके पास है। जब वह टर्ैक से उतर गया तो वह शैतान बन गया। तो तालीम को

ऐसे मत ले जाइए िक यह एक लोगन बनकर रह जाए और समाज िबगड़ता

चला जाए। इस म बहुत सी चीज ैक्टीकल नहीं ह। देखने, सुनने को हम भी इस

की तारीफ करते ह िक तालीम का हक होना चािहए। व े कू ल िजन्हने सैकड़

साल से एक पूरी जनरेशन तैयार की थी, उनम आप 25 परसट लेकर जाएंगे तो

उनका िमयार कहा ं जाएगा। इस पर भी आपको सोचना पड़ेगा। आपने नेबरहुड

की बात की है, म आप से कह सकता हूं, अभी कु छ िदन पहले इसी हाउस म

बहस हुई थी, मायनॉिरटी क्लटसर् म रहती है, खासकर मुिलम मायनॉिरटी,

वहा ं कोई कू ल नहीं है। वहा ं कू ल खुलने के िलए कोई जगह नहीं है और वहा ं

के नेबरहुड कू ल ने कह िदया है िक हम तुम को 7 से 10 परसट पॉइंट्स दगे

जबिक दूसरे कू ल म 40 से 50 परसट पॉइंट्स िमल रहे ह। आप को देखना 127 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 पड़ेगा िक िजस समाज को आप उठाना चाह रहे ह, उस समाज के िलए आप इस

िबल म और क्या चीज चाहते ह।

म मंतर्ी जी की इज्जत भी बहुत करता हूं। व े एक बेहतरीन इंसान भी ह

और बहुत लायक भी ह, लेिकन म मतर्ीं जी से कहना चाहता हूं िक हमारी

मायनॉिरटीज की कु छ क्लैरीिफके शंस भी ह, उनके बारे म आप जरूर बताएं।

इस की वजह यह है िक मायनॉिरटीज म अभी यह शु हा हो रहा है िक उनके

इंटीूशंस और आिर्टकल 30 म जो उनको पॉवर दी गयी है, वह िछन जाने

की बात है। बहुत-बहुत शुिकर्या आपका ।

(समात)

جناب محمد اديب (اتر پرديش) : ابھی 'ديريک صاحب' نے جو کہا، اسی کو ميں

آگے بﮍھانا چاہتا ہوں۔ ہمارے منسٹر صاحب نے بل پيش کرنے سے پہلے دو کليريفکيشنس دئے، ايک تو يہ کہا کہ مدرسہ اور پاٹھہ شاالئيں، يعنی جہاں religious teaching ہوتی ہے، وه exempted ہيں، ليکن ميں ان سے جاننا

چاہتا ہوں کہ کانسٹی -ٹيوشن کے آرٹيکل -30 کے تحت مائنارٹی کو يہ رائٹ ہے کہ

وه اپنے انسٹی -ٹيوشن establish کريں اور چالئيں۔ وہاں آپ کميٹی بنا رہے

ہيں، اس کا مطلب يہ ہے کہ مائنارٹی انسٹی ٹيوشنس کا اب يہ رائٹ نہيں رہے گا کہ وه اپنے انسٹی ٹيوشنس چال سکيں۔ کہا يہ گيا کہ ابھی بہت ٹائم بعد يہ landmark

ججمينٹ آيا ہے، T.M.A. Pai اور St. Stephen ميں بھی يہ کہا گيا کہ 128 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 مائنارٹی کا انسٹی - ٹيوشن چالنے کا رائٹ مائنارٹی کو ہے۔ ابھی ہم کو يہ شک لگتا

ہے کہ ہمارا يہ رائٹ چھن جانے کی پوزيشن ہے۔ (شری اپ سبھا ادھيکش {پروفيسر پی۔جے۔کوريئن} پيٹھاسين ہوئے)

ہمارے فاضل دوست نے يہ کہا کہ يہ پورا بل، ايسا لگتا ہے کہ شہروں کے لئے بنا ہے۔ ہندوستان کے لوگ ديہاتوں ميں رہتے ہيں۔ وہاں کوئی مسئلہ نہيں ہے، ليکن ہندوستان کے شہروں ميں اس وقت نہ زمينيں ہيں اور نہ اسکول بنانے کی اور جگہ ره گئی ہے۔ کيندريہ ودياليہ، جہاں بچے پﮍھہ سکتے تھے، وہاں کا، گوورنمينٹ نے اپنا کوٹہ ختم کر ديا، تاکہ غريب بچے وہاں بھيجے جا سکيں۔ ہم لوگوں کا بھی کوٹہ چھين ليا گيا تھا، ليکن جہاں تک پﮍھانے کی بات ہے، اب منتری جی نے بھی اپنا کوٹہ ختم کر ديا۔ آپ تعليم کی بات کرتے ہيں، تعليم کے ساتھہ اگر تربيت نہيں ہوگی تو سماج نہيں بن سکتا ہے۔ تعليم بہت ضروری چيز ہے، ليکن تربيت ہونا بھی بﮍا ضروری ہے۔ جس طرح سے پيسے کی ضرورت ہوتی ہے، آج بہت لوگوں کے پاس زمينوں سے پيسہ آيا ہے اور آپ ديکھئے کہ کيا سماج بن گيا ہے؟ تو جہاں تعليم پر زور ہے، وہاں تربيت پر بھی زور ہونا بﮍا ضروری ہے۔ اس کے لئے کوئی نہ کوئی ذريعہ نکاال جائے۔ ميرے مذہب ميں belief يہ ہے کہ ہمارے

يہاں سب سے بﮍا فرشتہ، جسے سب سے زياده علم ہے، اسے ہم شيطان کہتے ہيں کيوں کہ سب سے زياده علم اس کے پاس ہے۔ جب وه ٹريک سے اتر گيا تو وه شيطان بن گيا۔ تو تعليم کو ايسے مت لے جائيے کہ يہ ايک سلوگن بن کر ره جائے اور سماج بگﮍتا چال جائے۔ اس ميں بہت سے چيزيں پريکٹکل نہيں ہيں۔ ديکھنے، سننے کو ہم بھی اس کی تعريف کرتے ہيں کہ تعليم کا حق ہونا چاہئے۔ وه اسکول جنہوں نے سيکﮍوں سالوں سے يہ پوری جنريشن تيار کی تھی، ان ميں آپ 25

فيصد لے کر جائيں گے تو ان کا معيار کہاں جائے گا، اس پر بھی آپ کو سوچنا 129 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 پﮍے گا؟ آپ نے 'نيبرہڈ' کی بات کی ہے، ميں آپ سے کہہ سکتا ہوں، ابھی کچھہ

دن پہلے اسی ہاؤس ميں بحث ہوئی تھی، مائنارٹی کلسٹرس ميں رہتی ہے، خاص کر مسلم مائنارٹی، وہاں کوئی اسکول نہيں ہے۔ وہاں اسکول کھولنے کے لئے کوئی جگہ نہيں ہے اور وہاں کے 'نيبرہڈ' اسکولوں نے کہہ ديا ہے کہ ہم تم کو 7

سے 10 فيصد پوائنٹس ديں گے جبکہ دوسرے اسکولوں ميں 40 سے 50 فيصد

پوائنٹس مل رہے ہيں۔ آپ کو ديکھنا پﮍے گا کہ جس سماج کو آپ اٹھانا چاه رہے ہيں، اس سماج کے لئے آپ اس بل ميں اور کيا چيزيں چاہتے ہيں۔ ميں منتری جی کی بہت ّعزت کرتا ہوں۔ وه ايک بہترين انسان بھی ہيں اور بہت الئق بھی ہيں، ليکن ميں منتری جی سے کہنا چاہتا ہوں کہ ہماری مائنارٹی کی کچھہ کليريفکيشنس بھی ہيں، ان کے بارے ميں آپ ضرور بتائيں۔ اس کی وجہ يہ ہے مائنارٹيز ميں ابھی يہ شبہ ہو رہا ہے کہ ان کے انسٹی ٹيوشن اور آرٹيکل 30-

ميں جو ان کو پاور دی گئی ہے، وه چھن جانے کی بات ہے۔ بہت بہت شکريہ آپ کا۔ (ختم شد)

DR. BHARATKUMAR RAUT (MAHARASHTRA): Sir, I would not like to take much time of the House. I will make only a few bullet points.

First of all, let me congratulate the hon. Minister for bringing in this correction in the Bill. It is always good. Even if it is late, it is never too late. 130 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Sir, this Bill talks about the special children of the God. It is good that the Government has thought of it. My only worry here is that how you are going to effectively implement the provisions that you have made. I am asking this because this Bill talks about cerebral palsy, mental retardation, autism, multiple disabilities and children of this type. Sir, these children need special care. If you keep them in a general school, I don’t think they will be able to cope up with the normal children; rather, they would get some sort of phobia about the education, or, some sort of inferiority complex in their personality.

So, for these children, you need special teachers and special teaching aids. Are we providing these types of facilities in this Bill? If we don’t do this, then this will be only a verbal service and this will not serve the basic motive which the hon. Minister has in mind.

(continued by 2y – gsp)

GSP-KLG-3.45-2Y

DR. BHARATKUMAR RAUT (CONTD.): Sir, we are talking about the right to education to those who are going to the schools. We are giving all facilities including no fee, fee concession etc. etc. to the children who are going to the schools but what will happen to those 131 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 who are deprived from even going to the schools, for example, children working in the farms or the street children.

Sir, I come from Mumbai. If you go to any local railway station, you will find hundreds of children sleeping on the pavements. Sir, who will take them to the schools? How are they going to be benefitted? They are already disowned by their parents. Where will they go, and, how will they get education? I think, if the basic objective of the Bill is ‘Education to All’, then, the Government should also think of such children who are deprived from going close to even the pavements of the schools.

Sir, there is one more thing. What facilities will the school provide to the special children? For example, suppose a disabled child’s classroom is at the third floor, how will he go up and come down every day. Have you thought of it? If you have not thought of it, then, it will be a futile exercise because schools, at least, in the semi-urban or rural areas, do not have lifts in their buildings. How will they go up and come down. How will the blind children go? How will the autistic children go? Are you providing them any facility? Are you 132 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 making it compulsory to have those classrooms on the ground floor?

Do you have those type of buildings?

Since you are bringing this path-breaking Bill, I will only suggest you to take a complete view, and, see that no children in the country remains deprived of going to the school, with or without the wishes of their parents, guardians or the society. Thank you.

(Ends)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Thank you. Now, hon.

Minister.

THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT (SHRI

KAPIL SIBAL): Sir, first of all, I want to thank distinguished Members of this House who have participated in this debate, particularly,

Solanki ji, who made a very valuable contribution. Of course, all distinguished Members, Shivanand Tiwari ji, Siva ji, Rajeeve ji, from whom I keep on learning lessons in democracy, because I am a good learner, Mungekar ji, Bandyopadhyay ji, O’ Brien and other distinguished Members contributed a lot. The sense that I got was that सभी लोग चाहते ह िक यह जो संशोधन है, इसको पािरत िकया जाए,

अच्छा सशोधनं है, लेिकन कु छ और कई ऐसी बात ह, िजन पर हम सोचना होगा 133 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 और सोच कर अगर िकसी और सशोधनं की जरूरत हो, तो वह सशोधनं भी

करना पड़ेगा। अदीब जी ने भी सवाल उठाए ह और म यास करुं गा िक सबका

जवाब दंू।

First of all, Sir, I want to say, and, I said so in the opening remarks that it is not about the Central Government or the State

Governments, it is about all of us. If we want to empower our children through education, then, what we need to do is to sit down together, address the issues together, and, see as to how we can help each other in empowering our children. Take, for example, the 25 per cent reservation issue which was worrying several distinguished Members of this House.

(Contd. by SK-2Z)

SK-NB/3.50/2Z

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): ‘Where will the money come from’,

V.P. Singh talked about that. But the fact of the matter is that we made a calculation that the kind of contribution that we will be making to private schools for the 25 per cent reservation is around six to nineteen thousand, depending on where the school is located throughout India, and in 80 to 90 per cent of private schools 134 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 throughout India, which is why it is not urban-centric, the charges are less than nineteen thousand. So, in fact, all the private schools located in far-flung areas in the country would be happy to receive the contribution because their school fees are less than the contribution that is going to be made by the Central Government. We are talking about two, three, perhaps four hundred schools in the country where the fees are much higher, who have occupied the maximum national space when looking at the provisions of this Act. This Act is not about that 25 per cent. That is only one feature of this Act, to make the society more egalitarian, as Mungekarji said. The idea is inclusive education; the idea is to allow those exclusive communities who don’t look beyond their doors to get a peep into the real world. When two children, one belonging to the less advantaged group and the other belonging to the exclusive group, enter together in class I, they have no barriers. They don’t understand the difference between the rich and the poor. We are not putting somebody into Class VI. It is going to take eight years for that school to have 25 per cent reservation and the child who will be in Class I, will be in class VIII after eight years and, therefore, people will start getting into Class I. So, when they 135 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 grow up together, they will have a better feel of India. That really is the vision of the Government that we want a more egalitarian and a more inclusive society, and that is the thinking behind it. It is not about the three hours that Solankiji was talking about. In today’s world, nobody is looking at the three hours. We are looking at a different definition of education. Perhaps literacy today should include even digital literacy as we move forward. The three-hour definition was a definition way back in the 70s and the 80s, but not any more.

We are talking about comprehensive continuous evaluation. There is a section 29 in the Act which talks about an academic authority and the kind of knowledge that should be imparted to children. So, we have moved away from the three hours. In fact, we are very much concerned with the three Hs that you talked about when you referred to Mahatma Gandhiji. आपने िबकु ल सही कहा िक जब तक अपने हाथ से,

िदमाग से और िदल से काम नहीं लोगे, तब तक सपं ूण र् िशक्षा नहीं होगी और वही

हम चाहते ह। इसीिलए आने वाले िदन म आपको यह भी पता चलेगा िक हम

एक vocational education programme बनाने जा रहे ह, जो नवीं क्लास से

बारहवीं क्लास तक चलेगा, तािक बच्चा यह तय कर ले िक वह vocational education म जाना चाहता है या academics म जाना चाहता है और 136 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 vocational से academics म जा सकता है या academics से vocational म

जा सकता है। वह पिरवतर्न हम ला रहे ह, तािक बच्चे की सोच बदले और जो consumerism पूरे िंहदुतान म और िवव म फै ला हुआ है, उससे अलग होकर

बच्चा पूरी तरह से empower हो, यह हमारी सोच है और इसी सदभं र् म हम आगे

बढ़गे। Mungekarji was right. The less advantaged members of the community do feel victimized and that is the issue that we have to address. Unless we address that issue, we will not be able to succeed and empower our children, and that is exactly what we are trying to do. In any case, laws are not going to ultimately empower people. It is the commitment of society and stakeholders in society that are ultimately going to make sure whether this Act is going to be successful or not.

आपने िकर्यान्वयन की बात की िक िवधेयक तो आपने बना िलया, लेिकन

इसका िकर्यान्वयन कै से होगा? यह के वल के न्दर् सरकार की ही िजमेदारी नहीं

है, बिक राज्य सरकार की भी िजमेदारी है। असल म, right till the 70s,

िशक्षा का जो क्षेतर् था, वह राज्य सरकार का क्षेतर् था, िजमेदारी राज्य सरकार

की थी और उसके बाद जब वह Concurrent List म आया तो हमने साझेदारी

के साथ कोिशश की िक िकसी न िकसी तरीके से राज्य सरकार की पूरे तरीके

से मदद की जाए, तािक कारवा ं आगे बढ़े। (Contd. by ysr-3a) 137 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 -SK/YSR/3.55/3A

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): And it is with this in mind that we approach education.

Sir, I just want to address a very important issue raised by my learned colleague Rajeeveji when he talked about the fact that I was not responding to the suggestions that he had made. Quite frankly, if you give a very broad definition of ‘disabilities’, you allow courts to interpret ‘disabilities’ in any and every manner that they want. And that creates a lot of confusion in society. In fact, my effort is to make sure that the definitions are tight so that there is no room for ambiguity, there is no room for interpretation. What the Government is going to do is something that I can share with you. We are, in fact, going to amend the Persons with Disabilities (Equal opportunities,

Protection of Rights and Full Participation) Act, 1995 and the National

Trust for Welfare of Persons with Autism, Cerebral Palsy, Mental

Retardation and Multiple Disability Act, 1999. The Social Welfare

Ministry is, in fact, carrying out a complete amendment of this Act.

They will look at all possible disabilities which can be clearly defined in this Act. And by virtue of 2(d), once that Act is amended, it is 138 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 automatically a part of this Act. It is not that we are not aware of this.

And it is not that we don’t want to move forward. But we want the appropriate Ministry, which is charged with that responsibility, to give us a legal framework in respect of all possible disabilities, including dyslexia, so that that is automatically incorporated in this Act and is dealt with under this Act. It is not as if under the previous provisions of the Act, it was not included. That could have been done by a notification. But we brought this provision because we did not want the Executive only to decide that. Once it is part of the Act, it becomes something permanent and, therefore, nobody can play around with it. So, it is not that we are not responsive to what you say. It is just that we believe that a bigger exercise must be done taking into account the global movement in this area and then have a clear definition of the kind of differently-abled people who we wish to help under this Act. The reason why I could not use the other term is because the definition is taken under the 1995 Act and the 1999 Act which talk about disabilities. Otherwise, in my expressions, I never used the word ‘disability’ publicly. I always use the word ‘differently- abled’. And I have always said that each one of us sitting here is 139 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 differently-abled. It is not just the children of our country. Each one of us is differently-abled. And I might also share with you that as we grow older, we will be differently-abled in different ways and we will need help. Some will be hard-of-hearing. Some will lose their memory; some will lose their short-term memory and some will lose their long-term memory. So we should not look at differently-abled people with any sense of discrimination. We are all sufferers of that in our daily lives. Therefore, they are as much equal to us as we are to them. Therefore, any legislation that makes any kind of difference between differently-abled people is not the kind of legislation that we want in this country. We want them to be a part of our system, to be integrated into the education system. We need to be as sensitive to them as we are to normal people, who, they say, ‘don’t suffer from any disabilities’. That is the attitude of this Government. I wish to assure Rajeeveji that this Government is certainly not looking at that issue with blinkered eyes.

Now, I come to the issue of minority institutions. The Supreme

Court Judgement has come. It makes it very clear that under Articles

29 and 30, unaided minority institutions will not be governed by the 140 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 provisions of this Act. In terms of section 1(4), subject to the provisions of Articles 29 and 30 of the Constitution, the provisions of this Act shall apply to conferment of rights on children to free and compulsory education.

(Contd. by VKK/3B)

-YSR/VKK/3b/4.00

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): So, this is subject to Articles 29 and

30. The Supreme Court has declared the law under Articles 29 and 30 and clearly said that unaided private institutions are not governed by the provisions of this Act. That clarity is given by the Supreme Court.

That law cannot be changed. That’s the final verdict of the Supreme

Court. But, aided institutions are covered. Now, under this amendment, even in aided institutions, the management committees will not be governing the minority institutions. They will only have an advisory function. Therefore, in fact, we have made a departure.

Whereas under the Supreme Court judgment, aided institutions will be governed; by virtue of this amendment, we have said that aided institutions will not be covered. They will be covered only in an advisory capacity. So, in a sense, we have moved two steps further to 141 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 protect the interests of the minority institutions. So, Adeebji, I would request you that please be assured that we are extremely sensitive to the concerns of the minority community. If you walk two steps, we will walk ten steps in order to make sure that their interests are fully protected. The UPA Government, the UPA Chairperson and our Prime

Minister are always extremely concerned about this.

There are issues, issues that I have no answers to. For example, several distinguished Members raised the issue about malnourished children. That is a national issue that we need to be concerned about.

It is as much a concern of the State Governments as that of the

Central Government. Health, you know, is a State subject and we, at the Central Government, need to take care of our children. So, I don’t think that we should be talking at cross purposes on this.

Malnourished children are our children. They may be living in one

State; they may be living in another State. We should not raise issues about States and Centre and we should not say, “What are you doing about it?” We need to sit together. I need to sit together with Tiwariji and say, “What can we do together in Bihar?” What can we do together in Tamil Nadu and other parts of the country? Tamil Nadu, in 142 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 terms of nourishment, is ahead of many other States. Sir, the point is, these are issues I don’t have any answers to. I don’t think that I can provide answers by virtue of this amendment. But, all I can say is that under Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan, we are providing mid-day meals and we are providing nourished meals to children. But, of course, as people say, a child’s mind grows till the age of five. So, by the time, he enters school, the mind has already grown. Now, what kind of nutrients the child gets after birth is something that the nation needs to be concerned about and if 50 per cent of our children are malnourished, it is a national issue and we need to address it. On the floor of this House, I can’t give you answers for that. Neither can I give you answers for the children who are in the villages, who don’t go to schools, who go out and help their mothers in the farms or children in my own constituency, in the mandi, who come from Bihar and Uttar

Pradesh and who are working in the mandi as child labour. All we are telling the Chief Ministers to do is to make sure that there is a school and make sure that the school that is set up is a residential school because children away from the parents will go back to work unless you give them a residential school. So, I have been working with the 143 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 State Governments and telling them that wherever you have a problem of children and of child labour or children who are out of school and have no home to go to, provide for residential schools. Let us work together under a scheme through which residential schools can be provided so that those children can be housed there and they don’t go out again. These, of course, are some of the issues that we all need to address together.

Then, there was a very important issue raised by Bharatkumarji.

He talked about access to differently-abled children and how do they go up three floors. He is right. Under the schedule to the Act, we have provided that all schools must give access to differently-abled children. That is a prescription under the Act. Each school has to provide for that and wherever it is not provided for, it is incumbent on the school to make sure that it is provided. Similarly, I can’t answer the question of teachers. I think, overnight, we are not going to get the teachers for dealing with children with special needs. But, at the same time, now, under NCTE, we have issued a notification which provides that persons holding D.Ed. in Special Education and B.Ed. in 144 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Special Education will be eligible to become teachers in regular schools.

(Contd. by KR/3c)

KR/ASC/3C/405

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD.): So, we are providing the necessary educational framework in order that teachers can be provided. But how many actually will go into this profession, I mean that again, the

Central Government does not decide. You know the recruitment of teachers takes place सोलकीं जी, राय सरकार म जो िरक्रू टमस होती ह, उनकी terms and conditions राय सरकार ही तय करती ह। उनकी पशन क्या होगी और िकस

तरह के लोग टीचस र् बनगे, हम इसको तय नही ं करत े ह, बिक राय सरकार ही तय करती

ह। हमारा प्रयास तो यही रहेगा िक हम राय सरकार के साथ काम करके यह कोिशश कर िक

यादा से यादा टीचस र् children with special needs के िलए तयारै ह। इसके िलए हम

के द्र सरकार की तरफ से जो भी सहायता दे सकत े ह, देन े के िलए तैयार ह। जहा ं तक रािश का

सवाल है, अगर हम सविशक्षार् अिभयान के तहत आगे बढ़त े रहे तो 11th plan के आिखरी

साल म जो रािश राय और के द्र सरकार की थी, वह पचास-पचास प्रितशत थी, लेिकन

Right to Education के बाद हमने उसको अलग करके 65 और 35 प्रितशत की

िहसेदारी कर दी है। हम कोिशश कर रहे ह िक अगले कु छ साल म अगर हमारा ग्रोथ आठ, नौ

और दस परसट होगा, तो िनित प से रािश भी बढ़ेगी तथा हम और सहायता भी करगे। 145 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 लेिकन यह राता िकसी अके ले का नहीं है, िकसी एक का राता नही ं है, के द्र सरकार का नहीं

है, बिक यह देश का राता है, राय सरकार का राता है, िसिवल सोसाइटी का राता है और

िमल-जुल कर आगे बढ़न े का राता है। इही ं शद के साथ म आपका शुक्रगजारु हूं िक आपन े

मझु े बोलने का मौका िदया और इस कानून को समथनर् देन े का काम िकया। धयवाद।

(समा)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF.P.J. KURIEN): The question is :

That the Bill to amend the Right of Children to Free and

Compulsory Education Act, 2009, be taken into

consideration.

The motion was adopted.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE lA - (Amendment of section 1)

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: I move :

That at page 1, after line 5, the following new clause be inserted, namely;-

"lA. In the Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education Act, 2009 (hereinafter referred to as the principal Act), in section of section 1. 1, after sub- section (3), the following sub-sections shall be inserted, namely:-

'(4) Subject to the provisions of articles 29 and 30 of the Constitution, the 146 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 provisions of this Act shall apply to conferment of rights on children to free and compulsory education.

(5) Nothing contained in this Act shall apply to Madrasas, Vedic Pathasalas and educational institutions primarily imparting religious instruction' .".

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

New Clause 1A was added to the Bill.

CLAUSE 2

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: I move :

That at page 1, lines 6 and 7, for the words and figure "Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education Act, 2009 (hereinafter referred to as the principal Act)", the words "principal Act" be substituted.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

Clause 2, as amended, was added to the Bill.

CLAUSE 3

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: I move:

5. That at page 2, after line 10, the following be inserted, namely;-

'(a) for sub-section (1), the following sub-section shall be substituted, namely:-

"( I) Every child of the age of six to fourteen years, including a child referred to in clause (d) or clause ( e) of section 2, shall have the right to free and compulsory education in a neighbourhood school till the completion of his or her elementary education". '

6. That at page 2, line 11, for the brackets and alphabet "(a)", the brackets and alphabet "(b)" be substituted. 147 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 7. That at page 2, line 12, for the brackets and alphabet "(b)", the brackets and alphabet "( c)" be substituted.

8. That at page 2, after line 20, the following proviso be inserted, namely;-

"Provided that a child with 'multiple disabilities' referred to in clause (h) and a child with 'severe disability' referred to in clause (0) of section 2 of the National Trust for Welfare of Persons with Autism, Cerebral Palsy, Mental Retardation and Multiple Disabilities Act, 1999 may also have the right to opt for home-based education".

The questions were put and the motions were adopted.

Clause 3, as amended, was added to the Bill.

CLAUSE 4

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: I move:

9. That at page 2, for lines 23 to 25, the following proviso be substituted, namely;- "Provided that the School Management Committee constituted under sub- section (1) in respect of,-

(a) a school established and administered by minority whether based on religion or language; and

(b) all other aided schools as defined in sub-clause (ii) of clause (n) of section 2, shall perform advisory function only".

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

Clause 4, as amended, was added to the Bill.

148 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 CLAUSE 5

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: I move :

That at page 2, line 29, after the words "or language" the words "and an aided school as defined in sub-clause (ii) of clause (n) of section 2" be inserted.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

Clause 5, as amended, was added to the Bill.

NEW CLAUSES 6 and 7 - (Amendment of section 25 and Insertion of new section 39)

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: I move :

1l. That at page 2, after line 29, the following new clauses be inserted, namely;-

6. In section 25 of the principal Act, in sub-section (1), for the words of "within six months", the words "within three years" shall be substituted.' .

"7. After section 38 of the principal Act, the following section shall be inserted, namely:-

'39. (1) If any difficulty arises in giving effect to the provisions of this Act, the Central Government may,' by order, published in the Official Gazette, make such provisions not inconsistent with the provisions of this Act, as may appear to it to be necessary for removing the difficulty:

Provided that no order shall be made under this section after the expiry of three years from the commencement of the Right of Children to Free and Compulsory Education (Amendment) Act, 2012.

149 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 (2) Every order made under this section shall be laid, as soon as may be after it is made, before each House of Parliament'.".

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

New Clauses 6 and 7 were added to the Bill.

(Continued by 3D)

-KR-TMV-SCH/3D/4.10

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): I shall now put clause

1 to vote. There is one Amendment (No.2) by Mr. Kapil Sibal.

Clause 1 - Short title

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Sir, I beg to move:

2. That at page 1, line 3, for the figure “2010” the figure “2012” be substituted.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

Clause 1, as amended, was added to the Bill.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: I shall now put the Enacting Formula to vote.

There is one Amendment (No.1) by Mr. Kapil Sibal.

ENACTING FORMULA

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Sir, I beg to move:

1. That at page 1, line 1, for the word ‘Sixty-first’, the word “Sixty- third” be substituted. 150 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

The Enacting Formula, as amended, was added to the Bill.

The Title was added to the Bill.

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Sir, I beg to move:

That the Bill, as amended, be passed.

The question was put and the motion was adopted.

(Ends)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): Now we will take up the Central Educational Institutions (Reservation in Admission)

Amendment Bill, 2010.

THE CENTRAL EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS (RESERVATION IN ADMISSION) AMENDMENT BILL, 2010.

THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT (SHRI

KAPIL SIBAL): Sir, I beg to move:

That the Bill to amend the Central Educational Institutions (Reservation in Admission) Act, 2006, be taken into consideration.

Sir, the Central Educational Institutions (Reservation in

Admission) Act, 2006 was enacted by Parliament to provide for 151 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 reservation in admission of the students belonging to the Scheduled

Castes, the Scheduled Tribes and Other Backward Classes to certain

Central Educational Institutions established or maintained or aided by the Central Government. When this Act was passed, there was some proceeding pending in the Supreme Court and the Act was stayed.

Pursuant to the stay of the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court indicated that the provisions of this Bill should be implemented not from 2007-08, but from 2008-09. Accordingly, therefore, it was proposed to amend the coming into force of the provisions of this Act from 2007 to 2008 so that the implementation is done from 2008-09.

As we tried to implement the provisions of this Act, three issues came before us for consideration. I shall inform the distinguished Members of this august House about them.

As you know, the implementation process has to be completed within a period of three years. But if you look at places like Delhi, for example, the Delhi University has to expand its facilities so that adequate faculty could be recruited and adequate representation of the OBCs could be made and the whole process should be completed in a period of three years. But there are multiplicity of agencies in 152 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 Delhi. The Delhi Municipal Corporation is there, the DDA is there and other agencies are there, and the procedural wrangle was so great that the process could really not be completed in three years. One of the amendments that we brought forth for the consideration of the distinguished Members of this House is to extend the period of implementation for another three years so that during the six-year period this Act is fully implemented and the OBC reservations in all

Central Institutions are fully enforced. That is one amendment that has been mooted and proposed for the consideration of the distinguished Members of this House.

Then, Sir, a serious anomaly arose because in several States in the country, especially in the North-East, where the State institutions were converted into Central Institutions and when those State institutions were in existence the reservations were in accordance with the State laws. Since the reservation was in accordance with the

State laws, when the Central Act came, we would have to reduce the reservations and that would have caused a lot problems in the North-

East itself.

(Contd. by 3E/VK) 153 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 -TMV/VK-PSV/3E/4.15

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL (CONTD): Therefore, we needed to bring an amendment to ensure that whatever reservations were applicable to those State institutions, which later became Central institutions, whatever reservations were available immediately before they became

Central institutions, would still be intact and those would not be disturbed. That is another amendment which is for the consideration of the hon. Members of this House.

The third anomaly arose because there were some Central institutions like the NITs. As you know, under the NITs, 50 per cent is the Central quota; that means 50 per cent seats are filled through all

India competition and the other 50 per cent seats are filled by the

States. Now in the North East again, there are hardly any SCs; most of them are Tribals. If you take 15 per cent, seven-and-a-half per cent and the other 27 per cent, they don't fit into that mode. Again, we had to propose an amendment through which from the State quota, whatever seats were to be reserved, they must have to be reserved in accordance with what was in existence then. If the Tribals 154 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 had, say 50 per cent or 60 per cent or 70 per cent reservation, then that reservation must be intact.

Then with reference to the Ambedkar University, which is a particular university only for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes in Uttar Pradesh, the statute provided a reservation of 50 per cent only for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. So, there was no occasion for OBC reservation there. So, we had to propose an amendment that that reservation of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled

Tribes in Ambedkar University must be maintained.

These are some of the amendments that are required to be considered to make sure that there is an element of equity as we move forward under the Central Educational Institutions (Reservation in

Admission) Amendment Bill, 2010. I commend these amendments to this House. (Ends)

The question was proposed.

ी अिनल माधव दवे (मध्य देश): उपसभाध्यक्ष जी, म इस िबल पर बोलना

ारभ करूँ, उसके पहले म किपल जी से पूछना चाहता हूँ िक आपके पीछे इस

िवषय को लेकर गभीरता िलए हुए िकतने लोग बैठे हुए ह? क्यिक, अगर

िवपक्ष के और बाकी सब लोग िनकाल जाएँ ...(यवधान)... आप सुन भी 155 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 लीिजए। ...(यवधान)... मेरा इतना िनवेदन है िक यह इतना गभीर िवषय है,

िजसके अन्दर आप िरजवशंस और िबल ला रहे ह, तो कम-से-कम कोरम और

इतनी टर्थ तो उसके अन्दर कर ही लेनी चािहए।

सर, अब म इस िवषय पर आता हूँ। ...(यवधान)...

SHRI BALBIR PUNJ: Sir, the Treasury Benches are empty. आप

उधर देिखए। ...(यवधान)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): That is up to them.

You take your seat.

ी शान्ताराम नायक: आपकी पाटीर् ने ...(यवधान)... िरजवशन को अपोज़

िकया है। ...(यवधान)...

उपसभाध्यक्ष: शान्ताराम जी, आप बिठए।ै ...(यवधान)...

ी शान्ताराम नायक: आपकी पाटीर् ने हमेशा िरजवशन को अपोज़ िकया है।

...(यवधान)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: That is not the concern of the Chair.

(Interruptions). That is not the Chair's concern. I am bothered only about quorum. पुजं जी, आप बिठए।ै ...(यवधान)... शान्ताराम जी, आप

भी बिठए।ै ...(यवधान)... Please don’t distrub. आप बिठए।ै

...(यवधान)... आप इधर मेरी बात सुिनए। ...(यवधान)... पुंज जी, आप

बिठए।ै 156 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 ी बलबीर पुंज: सर, म इतनी ही बात तो कह रहा हूँ। ...(यवधान)...

उपसभाध्यक्ष (ो. पी. जे. कु िरयन): यह उनका काम है। Why do you worry?

ी बलबीर पुंज: इनका काम भी तो इन्ह बताना है।...(यवधान)...

उपसभाध्यक्ष: उन्हने already बोल िदया है। ...(यवधान)...

ी बलबीर पुंज: सर, अपोिजशन का काम है िक वह रूिंलग पाटीर् को उसका

काम बताए। ...(यवधान)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: That is up to them. This is not Chair's concern.

ी बलबीर पुंज: सर, यह बहुत गभीर िबल है। ...(यवधान)... Sir, this is a very important Bill, but the presence is very low.

उपसभाध्यक्ष: हा,ँ ठीक है। अब आप बिठए।ै यह बहुत गभीर िवषय है, इसिलए

आप बिठए।ै Mr. Punj, you are a senior Member. Please don't disturb.

ी बलबीर पुंज: सर, उधर की सारी बच खाली पड़ी हुई है। ...(यवधान)...

उपसभाध्यक्ष: जब यह गभीर िवषय है, तब िफर आप क्य trouble करते ह?

अब आप बिठए।ै O.k. please, दव े जी, आप बोिलए।

ी अिनल माधव दवे: उपसभाध्यक्ष जी, म आपके माध्यम से किपल जी को एक

बात कहना चाहता हूँ िक अभी हम िजस िबल का अमडमट कर रहे ह, ये िजस

िबल को लाए ह, यह एक ऐसी सजर्री है, जो 80, 90 या 100 साल के जजर्र

आदमी के ऊपर की जा रही है। हम ऐसी िशक्षा-पित पर बात कर रहे ह, 157 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 िजसके अन्दर आप िजतना सुधार करगे, इस पेशट की तिबयत और खराब होती

जाएगी, क्यिक यह िरपेयर करने से ठीक होने वाली मशीन नहीं है। अगर कभी

बहुत ही अच्छा िवचार आना होगा, तो कभी-न-कभी हम इसको टोटली िरलेस

करना पड़ेगा। पहले तो इसे िडसमटल कीिजए और िडसमटल करके नया

बनाइए, क्यिक आप इसका िजतना इलाज करते ह, मजर् और बढ़ता चला जाता

है।

(3एफ/वी.एन.के . पर कर्मश:)

-PSV/VNK-RG/3f/4:20

ी अिनल माधव दवे (कर्मागत): इस कार से समया गंभीर से और गभीरं

होती चली जाती है, इसिलए मेरे िहसाब से यह िशक्षा पित असफल और

असमथर् है। हम एक unsuccessful यवथा पर बात करते ह, उस पर अपना

समय ज़ाया करते ह और मंतर्ी जी उसके िलए यत्न करते ह। आपकी जगह

अजुर्न िंसह जी थे, उन्हने भी जो यत्न िकए, उसके सबं धं म म आगे बताऊं गा।

असमथर् है, यानी वह उस बात को deliver करने म समथर् नहीं है, जो delivery

उससे होनी चािहए। यह ठीक है िक यवथा जब तक चल रही है, तब तक

उसके सबं धं म बात भी करगे और िबल को अमेण्ड भी करगे, लेिकन हम यह

मान लेने का कोई कारण नहीं है िक हम बहुत ही कमजोर और colonial countries म थे और हम बाकी सब कु छ यरोपू से सीखना है। हमारे साथ एक

तकलीफ यह है िक हमको गोरा रंग बहुत अच्छा लगता है और जैसे ही कोई 158 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 गोरा यि कु छ बोलता है, तो हम लगता है िक वह सत्य बोल रहा है और हम

गलत सुन रहे ह। हम भारत म रहने वाले blacks की यह mentality है, यह

हमारे साथ problem है िक हमको बाहर की हर चीज़ सही लगती है, जैसे जब

तक कोई टाई नहीं बाधं े, तो हम लगता है िक यह आदमी ठीक नहीं बोल रहा है।

म इस सबं ंध म दो उदाहरण देना चाहता हूँ, जो यह बताएंगे िक हम

िकतने समृ थे। उनम से एक चेन्नई (मदर्ास) का है और दूसरा बगालं का है।

उसके सबं धं म कै री हेडन ने एक पुतक िलखी थी, िजसके पेज नबर 5 पर

िलखा हुआ है िक यह पुतक मक्समै ूलर के सरकारी लेख और एक िमशनरी

िरपोटर् के आधार पर बंगाल पर अंगर्ेज का कजा होने से पहले वहा ं की िशक्षा की

अवथा के सबं धं म िलखी गई थी। उसम िलखा है िक उस समय बगालं म 80

हजार थानीय पाठशालाए ं थीं, यानी सूबे की कु ल आबादी म हर चार सौ मनुय

के पीछे अथार्त चार सौ िवािर्थय के पीछे एक पाठशाला मौजूद थी। इितहास

लेखक Lando अपने ििटश भारत के इितहास म िलखते ह िक हर ऐसे िहन्दू

गावं म -- ििटश लोग से पहले, यानी 1857 के पहले हम लोग म कोई

िडवीजन नहीं था िक यह िहन्दू है या यह मुसलमान है, आिद, ऐसा कु छ भी नहीं

था, हम करीब-करीब एक थे। यह सारी पंचायत िलयाकत अली और मोहमद

अली िजन् ना के बाद शुरू हुई है, उसके पहले यह समाज एक था, इसिलए वह

जो िलखते थे, उसम िहन्दू, मुसलमान, आिद सब शािमल ह। तो, उन्हने िलखा

िक हर ऐसे िहन्दू गावं म, िजसका पुराना संगठन अभी तक कायम है, मुझे 159 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 िववास है िक आम तौर पर सब बच्चे िलखना, पढ़ना और िहसाब रखना जानते

ह। यह बगालं के एक ही ातं की बात हो रही है, िकन्तु जहा ं कहीं हमने गर्ाम

पचायतं का नाश िकया है, आज पचायतीं राज का िदन है, आज इस देश के अंदर

पचायतीं राज यवथा के न्दर् के तर पर लाग ू हुई थी। यह सबसे पहले 1958-59 म

गुजरात के अंदर तत्कालीन कागर्ं ेस के जो गहृ मंतर्ी के नेतृत्व म एक सिमित बनी थी

तथा उस सिमित ने आचयर्जनक रूप से एक ही साल के अदरं अपना ितवेदन

िदया और वह गुजरात के अंदर लाग ू हो गया, क्यिक वह गाधीं और बापू का

देश है। वहा ं वह िबल अमड हुआ और वहा ं पर पचायतीं राज यवथा लागू हो

गई, लेिकन यह भी सही है िक यह के न्दर् के तर पर हुआ। उसके िलए वह

िलखता है िक जहा ं कहीं हमने गर्ाम पंचायत का नाश िकया, जैसे िक पिचमी

बगालं म िकया, तो वहा ं गर्ाम पंचायत के साथ-साथ गावं की पाठशालाएं भी लोप

हो गईं। अगर education system को कभी हम लाना है, तो जब म बोलते हुए

इसके अंत म जाऊं गा, तब जो privatization है और उसके अंदर जो िरजवशन

वाला िवषय है, उससे मु हो करके कहीं न कहीं हम गर्ाम पंचायत को इस

यवथा के अंदर जोड़ना ही होगा। वैसे ही एक Leonel Smith ह, जो हमारे education system से डर कर िलखते ह...

THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT (SHRI

KAPIL SIBAL): Mr. Dave, my request to you is, please don’t quote the very people you doubt.

ी अिनल माधव दवे: म िकसी पर doubt नहीं कर रहा हूँ। 160 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 ी किपल िसबल: आप quotation म िकसका नाम ले रहे ह? यह िकताब

िकसने िलखी है?

ी अिनल माधव दवे: म आपको reference के साथ िकताब िगट करूं गा।

ी किपल िसबल: म यह जानना चाहता हूँ िक वह िकसकी िकताब है?

ी अिनल माधव दवे: यह िकताब Leonel Smith की है।

ी किपल िसबल: वह अंगर्ेज है या नॉन-अंगर्ेज है?

ी अिनल माधव दवे: वह अंगर्ेज है।

ी किपल िसबल: ठीक है, म यही जानना चाहता था।

ी अिनल माधव दवे: सर, म िजतने भी िदन इस सदन म बोलंगाू , मेरी कोई भी

बात कापिनक नहीं होगी, हवा म नहीं होगी बिक वह संदभ के साथ होगी।

अगर आप कहगे, तो म उन सदभं को, पुतक को आपको भट करने को तैयार

हूँ, क्यिक म इस पिवतर् सदन के अंदर गलत बोलने को पाप मानता हूँ। सदभं र् के

साथ ही बात बोली जानी चािहए। ऐसा नहीं होना चािहए िक कु छ भी मन म आ

गया, तो उटपटागं बोल िदया। यह ठीक नहीं है। उसके अदरं Leonel Smith

िलखते ह..(यवधान)... दूसरी बात यह है िक सदन को lawyer मत बताइए,

क्यिक lawyer की हालत हम देख रहे ह। उसके अंदर Leonel Smith ने जो

िलखा है, अगर वह आपको चािहए, तो यह 'Affairs of the East India

Company' published in 1882, Vol.I, PP446&447 पर है।

(3जी/डीएस पर जारी) 161 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 -VNK/DS-KS/4.25/3g

ी अिनल माधव दवे (कर्मागत): उस पर Leonel िलखते ह, “भारतवािसय की

िशक्षा की ओर अंगर्ेज शासक का िवरोध इसके बहुत िदन बाद तक बराबर जारी

रहा।” स 1831 की जाचँ के समय Sir John Maclean के 20 साल पहले के

िवचार को दोहराते हुए Major General Sir Leonel Smith ने कहा, “िशक्षा का

नतीजा यह होगा िक व े सब सादाियक और धािर्मक पक्षपात, िजनके ारा

हमने अभी तक मुक को वश म कर रखा है और िहन्दू और मुसलमान को एक

दूसरे से लड़ाये रखा है, इत्यािद दूर हो जाएँगे। िशक्षा का नतीजा यह होगा िक

इन लोग के िदमाग खुल जाएँगे और उन्ह अपनी िवशाल शि का पता लग

जाएगा।” यह म के वल इसिलए कह रहा हूँ िक हमारे पास बहुत अच्छा िसटम

था और िजस िसटम को हम िरपेयर करने की कोिशश कर रहे ह, वह िसटम

िरपेयर होने लायक नहीं है, लेिकन चिलए, िफर भी ठीक है।

आज की जो िथित है, वह भी म बता देता हूँ। अब इसम reference की

जरूरत नहीं है। इसम reference की जरूरत इसिलए नहीं है, क्यिक वह

आपके सामने है, आप उस िवभाग के मंतर्ी ह। "One of the striking features of higher education in India is that it has one of the lowest Gross

Enrolment Ratio (GER) in the world in 2007". इसम कोई शंका नहीं हो

सकती। 162 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 वैसे ही, म इसम आपके सामने सेकं ड माण रख रहा हूँ िक जो Gross

Enrolment Ratio है, वह वडर् का average 26 है और उसके अंदर हमारा 12

है। हम जो per capita खचर् कर रहे ह, वह $ 400 per student खचर् कर रहे

ह, जबिक िवव का यह average करीब $ 6000 per student है। मेरे कहने

का तात्पयर् यह है िक एजुके शन के ित हमारी जो approach है, उसम

िमिनटर जी अपना बजट बढ़ाने की बहुत कोिशश करते ह, लेिकन as a whole

हम पूरे िसटम के ऊपर सोचना पड़ेगा िक हम इसके िलए क्या कर।

इसके बाद, तीसरी बात यह कही है, "firstly, the Government expenditure on higher education as a percentage of GDP has been constantly below 1.5, what the Knowledge Commission has said as a minimum target". यह Knowledge Commission हमने नहीं बनाया।

उसको सरकार ने ही बनाया और उसे िजस िकसी भी सरकार ने बनाया, यह

अलग बात है, लेिकन उस Knowledge Commission की recommendation

है िक जीडीपी का 1.5 खचर् होना चािहए।

अब हम कहीं दूर नहीं जाते। अगर हम यहा ँ से गद फे क गे, तो वह जेएनयू

म जाकर िगर पड़ेगी। जो िशक्षा सथानं इतने नजदीक हमारी नाक के नीचे चल

रही है, उसकी क्या िथित है? जेएनय ू के 2005 to 2009 का जो Receipt and

Expenditure है, वह Plan, Non-Plan, Earmarked and Sponsored

Projects के अंदर 31 परसट लान म, 2 परसट नॉन लान म, Earmarked कर 163 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 रखा हुआ 30 परसट और Sponsored Projects का 29 परसट टोटल बजट की

सेिंवग है, यानी पैसा खचर् ही नहीं हुआ। यह कहीं दूर की बात नहीं है, बिक यह

िदली के जेएनय ू की िथित है। म दूरदराज के गावँ की क्या बात करूँ, वहा ँ

की िशक्षा सथानं की क्या बात करूँ और उनके अदरं क्या हो रहा होगा, यह

मुझे नहीं मालमू , म के वल इतना कह रहा हूँ िक जो संथान हमारे इतने पास है

और जो के न्दर् सरकार और राज्य सरकार की नाक के नीचे है, उसके अदरं यह

िथित है, तो इसको हम कै से पूरा करगे, यह मेरी समझ से परे है।

अब रही आपके िबल की बात, तो आपने जो िबल अमडमट के िलए रखा

है, उसम आपने जो क्लॉज़ 2 रखा है, वह आपने बहुत अच्छा िकया है, क्यिक

हमारा जो North-East है, वह हमारे िदमाग से ही बाहर है। टीवी पर मौसम के

बारे म जब बताते ह, तो उसम िवज्ञापन के साथ जो बस चलती है, वह भी चेन्नई

से चल कर मुबई जाती है, िदली जाती है और िफर कोलकाता होते हुए वापस

चेन्नई आ जाती है, वह भी North-East नहीं जाती। टीवी पर मौसम के बारे म

जो बताया जाता है, उसम वह बस North-East म mostly नहीं जाती। क्य?

क्यिक North-East हमारे िदमाग से बाहर है। इसिलए आपने यह बहुत अच्छा

िकया िक उसके अंदर North-East को जोड़ िलया, लेिकन मेरा एक िनवदने है

िक North-East से भी ज्यादा खराब हालत बाकी वनवासी क्षेतर् की है, जैसे

ओिडशा, जहा ँ िक कालाहाडीं है, छीसगढ़, मध्य देश, िबहार, राजथान,

तिमलनाडु और झारखंड जैसे तमाम ऐसे राज्य ह। मेरा यह कहना है िक या तो 164 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 आप इसको सब म कर दीिजए या अगर आपको लगता है, तो North-East म तो

इसको करना ही चािहए, क्यिक उसकी सीमा तीन देश से जुड़ी हुई है। दूसरे,

वहा ँ की हालत यह है िक जब म िशलागं गया और वहा ँ मन े एटीसी पर पूछा िक

क्या आज लेन लड करने वाला है, तो उन्हने कहा िक हा,ँ पायलट ने ऊपर से

इशारा कर िदया है, अब हम लड करने वाले ह।

(3एच/एचएमएस पर जारी)

3H/HMS-KGG/4.30

ी अिनल माधव दवे (कर्मागत) : िजस िशयागं िरवर से चाइना के अंदर इतना latest Airport है िक जहा ं से वह कभी भी टर्ाइक कर सकता है, उससे करीब-

करीब तीन सौ िकलोमीटर दूर भी भारत म हवाई जहाज पायलट के इशारे से

लड होता है और टेकऑफ करता है। यह तो वहा ं की गर्ाउंड िपेअडर्नेस है। यह

तो बहुत अच्छी बात है, आप नॉथर्-ईट को इससे जोिड़ए। म समझता हूं िक हम

ने सारी चीज को इनवॉव िकया है तो बहुत ठीक बात है और अगर नहीं िकया

है तो इस के अंदर बाकी सब लोग को जोिड़ए।

हम राइट टू एजुके शन की बहुत बात करते ह। यह बहुत अच्छा िवषय है

जोिक डा0 मुरली मनोहर जोशी जी के समय म भी चला। उसके पहले भी यह

िवषय चला होगा, आप भी इसे बहुत आगे ले जा रहे ह, लेिकन इस के अंदर एक

चीज सोचने की है िक ॉयोिरटी िकसे देनी है - राइट टू एजुके शन को देना है या

राइट एजुके शन को देना है? राइट टू एजुके शन तो सासं लेने जैसे अिनवायर् है। 165 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 इस म कु छ कहने की बात नहीं है। यह बात िपता को बोलने की जरूरत नहीं है

िक कन्यादान के समय कु छ-न-कु छ दान करना चािहए। देश के कणधारर् होने

के नाते, देश के सारे लोग को िशक्षा िमलनी चािहए, यह बोलने का ही िवषय

नहीं है। यह तो कहना पड़ रहा है, यह समया है, लेिकन म पूछना चाहता हूं िक

क्या हम राइट एजुके शन पर िवचार करते ह? राइट एजुके शन क्या है, इस बारे

म कु छ सोचा गया है और अगर सोचा गया है तो उसम वोट बक पॉिलिटक्स पर

न सोचा जाए। इस देश की समया यह है िक राइट एजुके शन नहीं दी जाती

और िजसको जो चीज जंचती है,उस पर वह काम कर लेता है। वह एक नया

िसलैबस ले आता है। अभी िदली के अंदर से कु छ पुतक बाहर कर दी गईं। पता

चला िक जो पाक अिधकृ त कमीर है, पी0ओ0के 0 है िजसे म गलत शद मानता

हूं, वह पाक अिधकृ त कमीर नहीं बिक पाक अिधकृ त इंिडया है। मान लीिजए,

कोई हमारे दूसरे ातं का िहसा होता तो क्या हम उसे पाक अिधकृ त कनार्टक

या तिमलनाडु बोलते? िफर उसे हम पाक अिधकृ त कमीर क्य बोलते ह? ऐसा

हम इसिलए बोलते ह क्यिक हमारे िदमाग के अंदर कहीं-न-कहीं कमीर को

लेकर approach ठीक नहीं है। वह पाक अिधकृ त इंिडया है और वह पाक

अिधकृ त इंिडया भारत के िवािर्थय को सी0बी0एस0ई0 के िसलैबस के अंदर

और दूसरे िसलैबस के अंदर चलता है। वह पुतक जारी हो जाती है। िफर वह

यि "सॉरी" बोलकर चला जाता है, यह िंचता का िवषय है और इस के सबं धं

म िवचार करने की आवयकता है। 166 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 इस िबल म अमडमट सेक्शन 3 का जो "बी" है, इसे बहुत समझने की

कोिशश करते हुए भी मुझे लगता है िक हम हर मामले म ओ0बी0सी0 को आिखर

म कर देते ह। हमारे िवचार से ओ0बी0सी0 हमेशा आिखर म आता है और अगर

िकसी को कोई शेयर देना होता है, तो हम कह देते ह िक ओ0बी0सी0 म से दे

दो। आप ओ0बी0सी0 को भी उसी म confirm किरए क्यिक वह समाज, वह

गरीब तबका, उन जाितय के लोग जो तािड़त ह, उनको िनिचत आरक्षण की

आवयकता है। उस आवयकता को पूिर्त के सबं ंध म जो शद यहा ं योग िकया

जा रहा है,"...in that case no seat shall be reserved for the Other

Backward Classes under clause (iii) and the extent of reservation of seats for..." इस के अंदर मेरा कहना है िक हम िजतना religiously

S.C./S.T. और बाकी लोग को िरजवशन का कं फमशन देते ह, उसी तरह हम

ओ0बी0सी0 के सबंध म भी करना चािहए। अगर ऐसा है तो मुझे कु छ नहीं कहना

और अगर नहीं है तो भगवान के िलए ओ0बी0सी0 के कोटे म से आप िकसी और

को कोटा मत दीिजए। अभी हम क्या करते ह िक हम अगर मायनॉिरटी को

िरजवशन देते ह, तो हम ने ओ0बी0सी0 म से काट िदया। म most backward के

िलए भी बोल रहा हूं। A part of the OBC is the most backward. जो ज्यादा

ह, हम उस म से िहसा िनकालकर दे देते ह। अरे भाई, उस म से िहसा

िनकालकर क्य दे रहे हो और ओ0बी0सी0 के सबंध म कौन िवचार करेगा?

अगर इन सारी चीज पर हम िवचार नहीं करगे तो कौन करेगा? 167 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 एक बात आप ने कही है िक मायनॉिरटी को इस म से exempt िकया

जाता है। सर, साल पहले एक िशक्षा मतर्ीं जी थे, जोिक इस दुिनया म नहीं रहे,

उन्हने जो कहा है, म यहा ं उस का उलखे करना चाहूंगा। म अजुर्न िंसह जी की

बात कर रहा हूं। उन्हने इसी िबल के सबंध म कहा है। ...(यवधान).. आपने

इस म से उन को exempt िकया है।

(3 जे/के एलजी पर कर्मश:)

3J/KLG-TDB/4.35

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: This Bill has nothing to do with minorities.

ी अिनल माधव दवे: इसम से आपने उनको एग्जेट िकया है।

ी किपल िसबल: नहीं, वह दूसरा िबल है,जो पास हो चुका है।

ी अिनल माधव दवे: इसके अंदर आप देिखए। म आपको पढ़कर बताता हूँ,

कोई ऐसी बात नहीं है। िबल के साथ जो लेटर गया है, उसके अंदर आप िलख

रहे ह- If any, but this was not intended while enacting the aforesaid

Act, except in case of minority education institutes which are exempt in term (v) of article 15 of the Constitution. Moreover, some of the

Central educational institutes...

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: This is to protect reservation. It has nothing to do with minorities.

ी अिनल माधव दवे: इस लाइन का क्या अथर् िनकलता है? 168 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: That is under 15(v) of the Constitution. It has nothing to do with this. (Interruptions) Yes; this is different.

ी अिनल माधव दवे: तो इस अमडमट के अंदर एग्जेट नहीं है।

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: This issue does not arise in this amendment because this is to protect reservation of tribals in the North-East and reservation of the Scheduled Castes in the Ambedkar University. This is what is intended to protect. It has nothing to do with minorities.

ी अिनल माधव दवे: किपल िसबल जी, नीचे आपका नाम िलखा हुआ है। म

इस आिर्टकल 55 को समझने की कोिशश कर रहा हूँ िक क्या इस िबल से

इसका सबं ंध नहीं है?

ी किपल िसबल: आज का तालुक नहीं है।

ी अिनल माधव दवे: अगर इस िबल से सबं धं नहीं है, तो मुझे कु छ भी नहीं

कहना है, यह बहुत अच्छा िवषय है। आप िजतना नॉथर् ईट के शेुड टर्ाइज

के बारे म िंचितत ह, मेरे कहने का तात्पयर् यह है िक भारत की अन्य शेुड

टर्ाइज जो अलग-अलग राज्य के अंदर रह रही ह, उनके कोटे के सबं ंध म भी

हम उतना ही िवचार करना चािहए।

महोदय, म यहा ं इस बात को रखना चाहता हूँ िक कहीं न कहीं हम इस

िबल के सबं धं म यह भी सोचने की आवयकता है िक िशक्षा के जो इंटीूशन्स

ह, व े कहीं एजुके शन के िबजनेस सटर तो नहीं हो रहे ह। आपने उनम से िकसी 169 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 को एग्जेट करने के िवषय म कहा िक इसके अंदर व े इन्वॉव नहीं ह। यह

सुिनचत हो जाना चािहए, क्यिक ऐसा मसै ेज पूरे देश के अंदर गया है िक

इनके अंदर से हमने कु छ िशक्षा सथानं को बाहर रखा है। जो िशक्षा संथान

हमारे िडफे न्स और बाकी, िजनको हमने कहा है िक इंटीूशन्स ऑफ

एक्सीलेन्स ह, वह तो अपनी जगह ठीक है, उनको बाहर रखना चािहए और

भगवान के िलए उनके सबं धं म बाकी और कु छ सोचने की आवयकता नहीं

होती है।

SHRI JESUDASU SEELAM: This is not correct.

ी अिनल माधव दवे: आपकी सूची के अंदर नाम ह। इसके अंदर िलखा हुआ है

िक व े सब एग्जेपट ह और होना ही चािहए, क्यिक व े एक्सीलेन्स के ह, उनका

इपोटन्स है। इसिलए उनको आपने इसके कोटे के अंदर से बाहर रखा है, इस

कार की चीज से बाहर रखा है, तो वह गलत नहीं है। वही ठीक है, यह म कह

रहा हूँ। वह ठीक है, उसको करना चािहए, लेिकन िफर भी म इतना जरूर यहा ं

जोड़ना चाहता हूँ िक इसके सबं धं म पूरे देश के अदरं एक जैसा कानून बने,

नॉथर्-ईट के साथ-साथ देश के सारे टर्ाइज के िलए ऐसा हो। शेुड काटस

के िलए भी एक जैसा हो, ओबीसी का जो कोटा है वह िकसी भी कीमत पर कम

न िकया जाए और जहा ं तक संभव हो हम इसके अंदर इस बात को कहीं न लाएं

िक हम कोई ऐसी चीज कर रहे ह। आप कोटे को कन्फमर् किरए। मेरे कहने का

तात्पय र् इतना है िक आप िववास िदला दीिजए। यह सारा झंझट िववास का है। 170 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 महोदय, म एक छोटी सी बात कह कर अपनी बात खत्म करता हूँ।

कॉलेज लाइफ म इन्दौर से मु बई जाने के िलए हमारे पास पैसे कम होते थे तो

हम डर्ाइवर के साथ चल े जाते थे, क्यिक हमारे िकसी न िकसी पिरिचत का

टर्ासपोटं र् का काम होता था। एक बार जब म जा रहा था, तो मन े देखा िक डर्ाइवर

ने अपने क्लीनर को डाटां और बोला िक ऐ, उस लड़के को डाटों , जो टर्क की

आड़ लेकर पेशाब कर रहा है। िफर उसने अपने क्लीनर से कहा िक गाड़ी के

िडबे म बैठ कर दारू मत पीना, क्यिक वह बोतल लेकर अंदर जाने लगा था।

डर्ाइवर ने उससे कहा िक टर्क के अंदर बैठकर शराब नहीं पीना। बोला - क्य?

डर्ाइवर बोला िक यह हमारी रोजी है, हमारी रोटी है और रोजी-रोटी के साथ

यह काम नहीं करना चािहए, कम से कम उस जगह को ठीक रखना चािहए।

आज जो सारी समया है, वह इसी बात को लेकर है िक हम फं डामटस के

साथ कॉोमाइज कर रहे ह। फं डामटस के साथ कॉोइमाज, और बड़े बड़

को यह बात समझ म नहीं आ रही है िक जो हमारी रोजी-रोटी का थान है,

वहा ं हम इस चीज का ध्यान रखना चािहए। अब आप यह कह रहे ह, अलीगढ़

मुिलम यिनविर्सटीू को और जािमया िमिलया सटर्ल यिनविर्सटीू को छू ट दी है।

अगर आपने छू ट दी है, तो जो बात म कह रहा हूँ, वह भी कहीं न कहीं लागू

होती है।

मेरे कहने का तात्पय र् इतना है िक आप इस सबं धं म दो भेद किरए।

(3के /एनबी पर जारी) 171 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012

NB/3K/4.40

ी अिनल माधव दवे (कर्मागत) : भोपाल म म ऐसे मदरसे देखता हूं जहा ं flooring नहीं है, जहा ं पखं े नहीं ह। मुसलमान ने गरीब मुसलमान के िलए जो

सपिं donate की थी, उस पर दबंग मुसलमान ने कज़ा कर िलया। म खुद

उस सिमित का सदय हूं, इसिलए मन े कहा िक सबसे पहले वह सपिं खाली

करवाओ और गरीब को दो, क्यिक वह इसीिलए donate हुई थी। इसी समय

आपको दूसरी तरफ भी देखना पड़ेगा िक कोई ऐसा शहर नहीं है, जहा ं इतने बड़े

िवालय आपने माइनोिरटी के नाम पर ोटेक्ट कर रखे ह या दे रखे ह, जो

अपने आप म िकसी छोटी-मोटी कं पनी से कम ॉिफट नहीं कमाते। िकतना कमा

रहे ह, कहा ं जा रहा है, कहा ं re-invest हो रहा है, उसका involvement कहा ं

है? इन सब बात के सबं धं म दशर्न कक्षा म पढ़ाना चािहए िक क्या हो रहा है,

क्यिक अगर यह नहीं हुआ, तो इस िबल के माध्यम से हम जो अमडमट्स लाने

की कोिशश कर रहे ह, भले ही हम व े अमडमट्स ले आएं, लेिकन यह भी सही है

िक फं डामटस म हमारा िववास डगमगा चुका है। जो लोग हम बोध पाठ देते

थे, व े दरकते हुए नज़र आते ह। इसिलए कभी-कभी लगता है िक कम से कम

इस िवषय को ठीक कर लीिजए। इसिलए मेरा आपसे िनवेदन है िक SC, ST,

OBC और OBC म भी दोन तबके - अित िपछड़ा तबका और िपछड़ा तबका,

इनके सबं ंध म जो reservations ह, व े सम-अनुपात होने चािहए। सारे िववाद की 172 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 जड़ यह है िक हम जो सरक्षणं देते ह, वह िकसी को देते ह, िकसी को नहीं देते

ह। अगर म अहीर समाज का हूं, तो मुझे यहा ं भी दीिजए, कनार्टक म भी दीिजए,

असम म भी दीिजए और राजथान म भी दीिजए। यह अलग-अलग भेद क्य कर

रहे ह? आप इस भेद को दूर कर दीिजए, अपने आप सारे आंदोलन शातं हो

जाएंगे और सारी चीज शातं हो जाएंगी।

जैसा मन े पहले कहा था िक यह मरीज ठीक नहीं होगा, यह मरीज मरेगा

और नया मरीज बनाना पड़ेगा, क्यिक इसको आप िजतना-िजतना िरपेयर

करते ह, यह उतना-उतना बीमार होता जाता है। मेरे कहने का तात्पय र् यह है िक

इसको हमने ठीक करने की कोिशश की, तो सारी चीज ठीक हो जाएंगी। जो

हमने अमडमट्स के अंदर डाले ह, भगवान के िलए इनकी तरफ मत देिखएगा,

क्यिक वोट के िलए मालमू नहीं क्या-क्या करने का पैटनर् चल पड़ा है। जब

हमसे कु छ होता नहीं है, तो सवच्च न्यायालय हमको direction देता है और

हमको बुरा लगता है। हमको लगता है िक क्य कर रहे हो? िवधाियका सवच्च

है, िवधाियका को direction देना है, िवधाियका को िनयम बनाने ह। हमसे मत

पूछो, हम ठीक से explain नहीं करगे। जब आप लावािरस छोड़ दगे, तो िफर

सुीम कोटर् को जजमट देना ही पड़ेगा। वह directions तभी देता है, जब हम

इस सबं ंध म अपना आचरण िबगाड़ लेते ह।

Excellency के िजतने कू ल ह, िजनको आपने सैक्शन 4(A) के अंतगतर्

रखा है, भगवान के िलए इनको बचाकर रिखए। जब ये सथानं काम करते ह, 173 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 तब देश म रॉके ट छू टते ह, तब नैनो मटीिरयलै पर काम होता है, तब R&D पर

काम होता है। हम R&D म िपछड़े हुए लोग नहीं ह, हम उसम बहुत आगे ह।

इसिलए जो security, R&D development areas ह, िजनके अंदर हम

सीकर्े सी भी चािहए और development भी चािहए, उनको सभालकरं रिखए,

उनको preserve करके रिखए। अगर इतना हो जाए, तो बहुत अच्छा होगा।

आपका यह िबल वागत योग्य है, अमडमट्स भी वागत योग्य ह और म देखता

हूं िक आप हमेशा इस बात को लेकर यत्नशील रहते ह िक चीज ठीक हो जाए।

आप कोिशश किरए, हम आपके साथ सहयोग करने के िलए तैयार ह, लेिकन

इस पर भी िवचार करने की आवयकता है िक क्या हम पूरे के पूरे िसटम को revive करके िकसी ऐसे alternative system पर काम कर सकते ह, जो हमारा

है, जो लोग के ारा चलाया जा रहा है? उसके अंदर यिद अमडमट करना हो,

तो यहा ं आने की जरूरत नहीं, गर्ाम पचायतं ही उसको कर ले और अपना काम

कर ले। यिद ऐसी िथित हमने खड़ी कर ली, तो बहुत अच्छा होगा।

जो सपना राजीव जी ने देखा था, वह बहुत सही था। समया यह है िक followers उसको िनपटा देते ह, यानी आजकल चेले लोग खतरनाक िकम के

होते ह, व े कब क्या कर द, कु छ पता नहीं। राजीव जी ने जो कहा, जो पचायतीं

राज लाने की कोिशश की, वह जो चेतना है, वह अभी development के process म है। उसकी किमय को दूर करते हुए, हम उसे और refine करना है।

हम उस सपने को पूरा करना है, जो कभी गाधीं ने देखा था, ितलक ने देखा था। 174 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 अगर हम गाधीं , ितलक, दीनदयाल जी के इस सपने को पूरा करगे, तो मुझे

लगता है िक हम जो कु छ कर रहे ह, भारत हम ा की दृिट से देखेगा और

सदन की ओर देखने की लोग की दृिट भी बदलेगी। सदन की ओर देखने म यह

जो हकापन आ गया है, उसका कारण यही है, क्यिक हमारी activities को

देखकर लोग कहते ह िक यह क्या चल रहा है? व े activities जब बदल जाएंगी,

तो वाभािवक रूप से देश हमारी ओर समान की दृिट से देखने लगेगा, मेरा

इतना ही िनवेदन है। धन्यवाद।

(समात)

(Followed By 3L/NBR)

-SSS/NBR-SC/3L/4.45.

SHRI JESUDASU SEELAM (ANDHRA PRADESH): Sir, I thank you for giving me this opportunity.

Sir, I rise to support the Bill and amendments brought before this House by the hon. Minister. The hon. Minister explained about the amendments. I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Minister to an issue relating to infrastructure. Sir, where there is a will, there is a way. I understand that there are certain agencies which take a lot of time to create infrastructure. But, I hope that six years time would be enough. I hope the hon. Minister will not come back to the House for 175 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 asking more time, because it is already delayed. Sir, delay is also, in a way, a denial. We are grateful for the hon. Minister for bringing certain amendments, because the earlier Bill was not acceptable for reasons best known to the House. I am grateful that the hon. Minister has brought official amendments. We agree with those amendments.

This is specially required to address the population criteria, because reservation in this country is based on, normally, proportion to the population of a particular State. As the hon. Minister also mentioned, there is a need to clarify the number of seats.

I would also like to draw his kind attention to Section 5. The hon. Minister also wanted some amendment. It is relating to the substitution part. I would like to know whether it is the number of seats available or actually filled. I think, we need a little more clarification on this. I hope the hon. Minister will explain as to what it is. We are not able to understand as it creates an impression that seats which are actually available should be the seats which are actually reserved. They should not be filled up through some other means other than the process of reservation. This needs to be clarified. 176 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 The whole exercise is to give effect to the 93rd Constitutional

Amendment by which Article 15(5) was inserted to create a sense of equity. I am happy the hon. Minister stressed on the equity. Sir, equity is the need of the hour. We have been harping on this. Equity in education is very vital. Equal opportunity, equality of opportunity and equity while debating that opportunity is very important. Equity has to be in real spirit of the Constitution, because the 93rd

Constitutional Amendment inserted Article 15(5) to provide reservation in educational institutions to SC/ST. It was done to undo the injustice done. I am happy that friends from the other side, especially Shri Daveji, while deliberating -- though he digressed from the main focus -- has definitely endorsed that there should be equity.

After a long, long subjugation, educational exclusion, social deprivation and educational deprivation these communities are sought to be given equity. This is a very noble intention of the framers of the

Constitution. Sir, in tune with that amendment, the hon. Minister -- we would have been very glad as we have been asking for this -- has done it only partly. You have implemented the spirit of Article 15(5) 177 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 only in part. You have taken up only one part, not fully. You have done it only in Government institutions.

(CONTD. BY USY "3M")

USY/3m/4.50

SHRI JESUDASU SEELAM (CONTD.): But that article also says that the States shall reserve seats for the Scheduled Castes and the

Scheduled Tribes for admission to the educational institutions in the private sector also. When is that Bill coming up? That is the real question. You have done it in Government institutions. That's fine.

You are ensuring implementation. You are coming up with amendments to nullify certain disparities. It is also fine that you are taking some corrective measures as per the court's directions. But it has been done only partly because in the Government institutions what is happening slowly is that these institutions are left only with weaker sections and backward classes as the other well-to-do sections of the society are moving away from the Government institutions. Full equity can only be achieved when you completely implement what the nation wants you to do. After a nationwide debate, after prolonged discussions, this House and the other House 178 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 debated for two full days and went deeply into this gamut and the 93rd amendment was brought in to amend article 15 of the Constitution and insert clause V to provide reservation in both, private as well as public institutions. But only part reservation has been introduced for admission to educational institutions. We are also bringing some amendments to take care of the North-Eastern Region and other things. We are for that. We are happy about it. We are thankful that you are able to correct those distortions. But I would like to ask you, through the Chairperson, when that Bill is coming up that would give full meaning to equity. We need a categorical assurance from the hon. Minister. While speaking, during the last session, he said that we needed a national debate. You don't have to reinvent the wheel.

It has already been debated; it has already been discussed; the

Constitution has been amended. Then, it was decided that the

Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes will have educational opportunities in both private and public institutions. So, only public institutions were covered. For covering private institutions, you don’t require to debate again. I am happy that my friends, from other benches, said that they welcome giving equity. But equity would only 179 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 be complete when opportunity is provided in all educational institutions.

I would also like to draw your attention to one more issue. In the

Right to Education you have kept 25 per cent reservation for weaker sections. 'Weaker sections' is a very broad term. As per the definition, given in the Right to Education Act, of 'weaker sections' includes the Scheduled Castes, the Scheduled Tribes, the other backward sections. But when you keep that inclusive list, when you include everybody, when you include the unequals in one basket, the weakest gets marginalized. So, we are asking for apportioning that 25 per cent category-wise. How much are you going to give to the most disadvantaged sections of this country, especially from the educational backwardness point of view? That has not been done.

We have included disabled, alternatively-abled, everybody in one basket. Tomorrow you may add some more into it. What is that you are planning to do? On the one hand, you are appearing to be giving; on the other hand, you are appearing to be denying. So, once you implement reservation in private educational institutions also, all those 180 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 debates will go away. Secondly, equity will really be meaningful only when you create an equitable environment.

(Contd. by 3n – PK)

-USY/PK/3N/4.55

SHRI JESUDASU SEELAM (CONTD.): You are breeding inqualities.

Sir, there are 20 types of schools in this country. There are rural elementary schools, there are rural schools located in the dominant- community places of a village and there are also rural schools located in the disadvantaged areas of the village. They are different in qualities, both in terms of infrastructure and in terms of teaching.

Then, there are rural private schools cropping up. This is the third variety. Then, there are rural English-medium schools, which is the fourth variety. These are all in the rural areas.

Now, I come to semi-urban areas. There, there are Municipal schools, there are semi-urban Government schools, there are semi- urban private schools and there are public schools in the semi-urban areas.

Now, I come to the cities. In cities, there are Municipal schools, there are private schools, there are public schools and there 181 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 are zila parishad schools. There are schools for Civil Service people.

They are very particular; they do not admit children of non-Civil

Service people. Then, there are schools for Army personnel. There are schools for railway people. So, there are different categories of schools. By creating different categoires of schools, you are breeding inequalities. There are Doon Schools. There are Delhi Public

Schools. Children go to different kinds of schools for education.

They come out differently. That categorisation continues in the future also. So, with all these inequalities, how can you say that you are trying to bring in equity? You can’t even think of that. So, you are breeding inequalities right from class I in this country. Children coming out from different schools will have different opportunities.

They will have different opportunities of employment not only in private but also in public enterprises. So, I think the whole gamut of educational system needs to be given a different look keeping in view the aspect of equality of opportunities. Sir, education is the only key for empowerment. That is what Dr. Ambedkar said. For centuries, you kept them away from the pale of education. So, we need to correct this imbalance by bringing forward a Bill providing for 182 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 reservation of seats for admission of the SCs, STs and OBCs in private sector also, as has been provided by the 93rd Constitutional

Amendment and also as provided under article 15 (5). We, 165

Members of Parliament belonging to the Scheduled Castes and the

Scheduled Tribes, have given a joint memorandum to the hon.

Minister saying, “Call us for a discussion”. The hon. Minister has been kind enough to say, “Come and discuss. We will find a solution.” We have been asking you, Sir. You have promised us.

Call us for a discussion. In this country, we do not want that in the next 50 years when the nation celebrates its 100th Republic Day, there is reservation in this country. But you have to plant the seeds now.

You are creating inequalities. Still, you are saying that reservation is being made. Just one in thousands is getting some benefit. People are not going to accept this. This is the impression that is being created. If you have a relook at the total empowerment from the educational point of view, you will find that much needs to be done to bridge the gap that is there between the weaker sections and the advanced sections of the society. We are happy that something is being done, but there is a need to do much more. The hon. Minister 183 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 has been spearheading the rerstructuring reforms and is trying to bring in the equity component. We are by his side. We support this amendment. We also support all such amendments which empower the educationally backward sections of the society. But that would be meaningful only when he brings forward a Bill, which is long pending, the Bill for Providing Reservation in Private Educational Institutions, as has been assured by the Constitution. We don’t have to debate it again and again.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Okay.

SHRI JESUDASU SEELAM: I hope that the hon. Minister would bring forward that Bill and also answer my point relating to filling up of seats in the present Amendment Bill. With these observations, I, once again, support the Bill and thank you for having given me this opportunity.

(Ends)

(Followed by 3O/PB)

-PK/PB-ASC/3o/5.00

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P.J. KURIEN): Now, Shrimati Jharna

Das Baidya. ...(Interruptions)... 184 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, it is five o’clock.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): I think, we will continue to sit and pass this Bill. ...(Interruptions)... I take your stand. ...(Interruptions)... This was my suggestion.

...(Interruptions)... What is the Government’s stand?

...(Interruptions)... Yes, Maya Singhji.

ीमती माया िंसह : उपसभाध्यक्ष महोदय, इसको कल कॉन्टीन्यु किरए।

THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT (SHRI

KAPIL SIBAL): Sir, this is a Bill on which there is unanimity.

...(Interruptions)...

SHRIMATI MAYA SINGH: How many Members are there to speak on this?

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: There are only four Members – five minutes each. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI KAPIL SIBAL: Sir, we can pass it. ...(Interruptions)...

DR. V. MAITREYAN: That was not agreed upon, Sir. ...(Interruptions)...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN: You can now agree. There are only four Members

– five minutes each.

ीमती माया िंसह : सर, इसको कल कर लीिजए। 185 Uncorrected/Not for Publication – 24.04.2012 THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. P. J. KURIEN): Okay; all right. The

House is adjourned to meet tomorrow at 11.00 a.m.

______

The House then adjourned at one minute past five of the clock till eleven of the clock on Wednesday, the 25th April, 2012.