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sIcNgn'IJNI rlUVA C O LLEGE

Wenyou le{t high school, where didyou go to college?

I weat from Glendale High School to Glendale Community College. I had the grades to come directiy to Berkeley, but I felt sorry for my folls beeause I was the sixth child. The other children had all left home so I thought why don't I just go to school here and then I could still live at home and be withthem. My dad could drive me to school. He was a romantic poet and he used to read us wonderfui romantic poetry. The last time he drove me to school, he read me a poem. I rememberthatvery clearly. I was very close to him andyet angry at him in certain ways in the way he treated me. I think he was ambivalent. He wanted me to be a feminine woman and take care of children, and yet he was very proud when I started to succeed.

How did your father feel a-bout your goiag to a commun:it7r college ?

Everyone told me I should have gone straight onto Berkeleybecause I exeelled in everything I did at the community college, in sports and everythiog. Th"y all said I could have been doing this at Berkeley, but internally I felt this need to protect my parents. I don't knowwhy, they could have protectedthemselves. Maybe i needed it, maybe I wasn't readyto go and I used this as arr excuse. Who lorows? That's what I thought at the time.

Your und ergraduate degree was in biologr?

I liked anatomy. I bad taken a course in the community college and had a very good anatomy teacher. But I liked the art of anatomy as well as the science. There was a picture in Gray's Anatomyof. this beautifirl profile in addition to the blood vessels in the head. It was that com.bination of art and science that inspired me. If I had not gone to the community college, I might not have had such an anatomy course. Who knows?

You sound likeyou were an artist as well?

Yes, I love art. The profile of the person in the book was so sensually esthetic. It was clearly

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE. I I COLLECE

defined and sharp and it strongly attracted me. It was so beautiful. I have created a recent sculpture tryingto depict that face in the anatomytextbook.

'Vbre you interested in an in high s&ool?

I grewup in anartist's communit;r, L,a Crescenta inthe earlydays, inthe'?os and'3os attracted artists, for example, (Stephen) Se;tmour Thomas, who paintedVoodrowVilson, and Sir Wil1ir"' Osler.? Seymour Thomas told me that Osler was the finest "'an he had ever painted. He kept his portrait in his studio and would not give it to Odord University until. SeynourThomas died'. When I was a little girl I would sit on mylittle three-legged stool in Thomas' studio and look at this portrait and hear the stories from Seynour Thomas about this great teacher/doctor. If that wasn't inspiring! I was coming after grart'-ar school - we had to wdk two rniles from school home again, up the hill , ald Thomas' house was in between school and home.'We }ived at the top of the hill so I could stop half way and see this famous picture of Os1er. And then there was Ben Sharpsteen, WaIt Disney's first art firector-he was with Disney when the first group of men worked in a garage on Los Feliz Boulevard developing the Disney studios. The beginning drawings all crme from Ben Sharpsteen, he was my father's 'When patient. I was watering the trees with him oace, the orange trees, - -I remem-ber very clearly because I was in my bare feet and my little sunsuit and he was standing beside me watering his trees- -he looked at me and said, "Somedayyou'Il amount to something.' And when people were tough, as they will be, I kept sa)4lrg, "But he said I can do it." These were two imFressive artists. My older sister, Rosemary, the nurse, painted beautifully, so art was definitely around us.

Rosemary died while you were in college, didaT she?

Yes, she was twenty-six and I was nineteen. Lupus (erythematosus) mns inthe family.3 It's a terfile disease. I don't know my mother's side of the family. She came from Svritzerland. There were four children in her family, two of them died. I have no idea what they died from, whether it was lupus, because we don't fiud the lupus on my father's side, I have a feelingthat that's where the genetic component came from. Rosemarywas an army nurse and got sick in England and was sent home. I toid her that I was going to see if I could find out somethingthat might shed light on the immune system going awry. Then my brother got glomemlor nephritis, also an autoimmune disease, and my niece had lupus. They all died. My nephew has it now. He has had a hip replacement, and he has had a stroke. He was the all-Americantype football player in southern California and a good all-around athlete before he was afflicted.

L2 MaRIAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY COLLECE

Doesn't lupus attackwomen most of the time?

Yes. It skipped me, but we all have the arthritic factor, which is related to autoimmrrnity.

It must have been wotrisome foryou and for meru-berc ofyour family?

Oh, yes. I keep tellingthem avoid stress as much as possible, because I think stress is a great stimulant to -any diseases, including breast cancer. I've watehed six of my frieads die of breast cancer after severe stress. Theyhad the lump inthe breast within six months after severe stress. I'm a great advocate for seekirrg reduced stress, ifyou can.

What is your secret for liuing in a stress-free enuironment?

Coming in here and working with these wonderful students, which is not stressful until they fight for grade changes.

Whenyou were in undergraduate school, how manywomen were students inyour classes?

There weren't many and some of them were returning nurses. My best friend now was a returning nurse. She and I studied together at Berkeley in the r94os because we were both equaly interested in biological science.

Returningnurse?

Her name was Helen Christiansen and she was an army nurse and this was right after the (Second'World) War. Thiswas between 1946-48.

Howwere women treated in these classes?

I think the professors in general were not friendlywith the undergraduate students. I think that'swhythe free speech movement came along, to get more dialogue goingbetweenthe students and the professors. I can remember goingto a professor's office and asking Erestions. He would tell me to go look in my book, or I'd briog my slip in to be signed for my major and he would say, "Leave it onthe table and I'Il sign it when I have time." There was no polite exchange like we have now. Students come, I asktheir name, where they're 'We from. sit and talk about what theywant, I sign their forms, and then they go. In our day, none ofthat exchange existed.

Doyou think that's generallytrue ofprofessors now?

No.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE 13 COLLECE

do that ? So you are an unusual profess or in that you

to see them during office hours' It's I think professors want to see students, but they need work done that I think professors when students come in when you're trying to get your own I'm tle salne, because when I bave a deadline for somethi'g have absolutely no patience. *I'm for a moment' I say' sorry' sign up for and. the students come and say can we talk to you t talk to you now'- Reasonable office office hours and I'lI glve you my attention, but I can hours are certainly avehicle forhelping students'

Whenyou were an undergraduate, what wereyour exPectations?

thought itwas medieine. I reallythought that'swhat I wanted' .I

Didyou take Pre-med courses? some of those coulses backinthe Yes, I took chemistry, physics andbiology- I'dtaken communitY college.

Did you how any womea doctors at that time? 'when just took the courses with the medieal The answer is no. I started graduate school, I medical school program was students in this building (Life Sciences) because the first-year brains when I was an undergraduate and I on the Berkeley ."*po.. I could see those human studpng brains' One of the women' Irrew I had to shrdy them. I hrew I wanted a Ph.D. in though she was very strict and my first inspiring professor, taught us histology. Even teaching the medical students and straight and wore black dresses and black shoes, she was that was very inspiring. I said I'd like to do that too'

medicine' When did you change Whenyou were in gruaduate school, you weren't thi*iag of yourmind? many women were accepted five I tried once for medical school and I didn't get in. Not - the women who got in were the returning out of a class of over roo students. AII but two of nurses.Iwasntoneofthemsolfeltl,dbettergoformyPh.D.instead.

the war? Was there a problem with mea retuming from wanted' and they deserved Definitely. The men were highly motivated. They knew what they for five years' and here was to be there. Theyhad been deprived. of an academic education men were so their opportunity to catch up. It was a wonderfuI time to be in school because

L4 MaRIAN DtaMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY COLLEGE

I

strongly motivated. I loved takirrg courses with them, and when I could get the top grade in class inthose situations, I feltverygood.

How ftastrating foryou to get the top grade in class, but not be admitted to medical school.

I think the curiosity of learning about the brain just outdid ever;rthing. Now I'm very lr"b because the women I studied with, the returning nurses who became doctors, don't want anythingto do with medicine and I still like what I'm doing.

Theyno loagerliked it?

Theyliked it, but it became boring. It became routine.

The woruan professoryou had. Wasn| it unusual for a wozan to be a professor in the sciences at that time?

Yes, it was.4 She was very, very hard. She wasn't married. When I went to her office to talkto her, she said, "How old are you?" I said I'm twenty-one, and she said it's goingto be hard foryou and that's the way it should be. So I just said thankyou and got up and left.

Wat did she mean?

Just that, women were goingto be treated badly, and that's the way it should be. She had survived and I should have to go through the same unfortunate barriers.

Whatwere some of the barriers forwomen?

Main1y just being accepted as a womarl, and not getting encouragement. You really had to have motivation on your own. Today, it's different. If a woman sits in my office and says she would like to study medicine, I am willing to help in any way I can to fuifill her dre.ems. The pictures there (indicates a bulletin board filled with photographs) are all of people who have gone on and become doctors. I have watched them firlfill their dreams. They know they can achieve their goals today.

What was graduate school like for a woman in the late 4os?

It was very invigorating because I was getting to study human material. As an undergraduate, I didn't study the human body, ooly animal specimens. Zoology was the main subject. I could see what was going on with the medical students, but I couldn't get there until I graduated. Just learning and loving my professors and beingwith the eager students. It was a wonderful environment. I arrived in the building at 8 o'cloek in the

A LEADER IN THE FI ELD OF SCIENCE 15 COLLECE

morning and left at rr o'clock at night, went down and got a milkshake, went home and went to bed and was back again the next morning.

Wereyourprofessorc, aside fromthe onewomaa, aII men?

Theywere all 6gn. The women who worked in scienee vvglg fsghnicians. I felt very sorqy for them because they were certainly second- class citizens professionally, when in reality they were terribly bright women. They did so much of the work. In fact I still take one of them out for dir,r'er once a week. She was so bright, but she had no a'nbition to be anything but'a technieian. Itwas her job.

Were you r p ro fe ss o ts e ncouragiag?

I think so. I think they sensed the fact that I wanted to lea::r so badly.

Couldyou go to them forhelp ifyou needed somethiag?

Very definitely. Medical doctors who are professors were very kind, as a rule, and theywere very good to me. The chief man who ran the institute was a bear. Everybody heew that and we stayed awayfrom hi"'.

Were all the professors ruedical doctorc?

Yes, my graduate workwas in the medical school. I was takingthe classes with the medical students while I was in graduate school. That was the onlyway I could leanr brain anatomy. There were four people going for Ph.D.s with all the M.D.s. There were three fellows and me.

Did you go through medical school all the way to your Ph.D. ?

I took anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, all those courses. I didn't take the clinieal work, but I was taught by clinicians so now when I teach, my students like the anatomy class because I can say, "This is the wayyou'll get it in medical school," so I can be a transition for them. That's one reason why my anatomy class is so large, I think.

What was your life like wMe you were in graduate school?

We lived in an apartment. My girlfriends were from myundergraduate days. One was working in the dean's offiee, one was working in the library and one was working in a department store as an assistant buyer and I was gomgto graduate school. Another one was in art, Flossie- -she just e-mailed me the other day. She's still teaching. There were five of

r6. I{ARIAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY COLLECE

us living on the corner 6f Q[2nnirrg and Ellsworth. The students love to hear that we had an old house for which we paid $35 a month rent. There were five of us so we really paid $7 a month rent. The house was close to school so we ate our brealCast, came to work, went back again. After a year liviag there, one of my roommates got married so we broke up the group and I moved into [n1snx21lenal House. That opened up a whole new exciting dimension because I was with all the foreign students and all the graduate students of both sexes living together at International House. But it was still the same academic program, from 8 to rr everyday.

So you just worked all the time?

I worked, but I loved it. We played tennis on the weekends, and went to the symphony on Thursday night, maybe onee a month. It was similar to how I find the students today - I recently oversaw a thesis for a man in cancer research and he could hardlywait to get back again to his research. He had been studying for his Ph.D. exams and he was eager to get back to his research. The strong motivation and the intense interest that these young people have who really know what they want is the same drive that I had.

You certainly kaew what you wanted. I'm ttyiag to get a feeling of how much other people wantedyou to succeed. Didyou have an aduisor?

I guess I talked to all the professors about various things. Some helped me by signing necessary papers. I went to people I liked, and I worked vrith people I liked.

How didyou howwhatyou needed in order to earn a Ph.D. in anatomy ifyour discipline wasn't offered in the medical school?

Anatomy was offered. There were at least three men getting their Ph.D.s in anatomy in the medical school. The graduate secretary helped all of the students. I'm sure my mentor, Dr. Reinhard, advised me. It was unusual beeause his field was the lymphatic system. I ehose him because I liked him as a person and respeeted him, so I wanted to work with him from that point of view. I could learn basic anatomy from him, but he wasn't a neuro anatomist so I had to learnthat from other professors.

Did you teaeh while you were in graduate school?

Yes, I had to teach to earn a living. I loved being a teacher and knowing the material so I could give the medical students something I knew. That just felt so good it has to be genetic. I can remember the very moment it happened. Somebody asked me a question, I don't

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE r7 COLLECE

remem-berthe question, but I rememlerthe satisfaction of givingthe answer.

What wereyou teaching?

Histolory, the tissues of the body.

Was that the first timeyou had taught?

I had never taught academic courses, although I had officiated at meetings as a student body Ieader,

What was that first teaching expertence like?

It was just phenomenal, tnrly wonderful. The sun rose and set on the fact that I could teach at a great university and I was teaehing medical sflrdents.

The students wereproba-blyalmost all mea.

There were five women out of ro5 students. But I had so many brothers that I didn't really think of them in the sense that I was looking for a husband or something of this nahrre. That directionwas not my motive.

Vere you just concentrating oayour career at this time?

I wasn't really thinking alout a career. I lcrew I wanted to get my Ph.D. I had general plans; I wanted my Ph.D. by age twenty-five and I wanted three children by age thirty, and I heew I wanted to intermingle my family and my profession together.

What madeyou thinkyou could do that?

I guess that's what I wanted. I didn't have a specific role model particularly, I just decided what I wanted and I worked for it, combiningthe best of what I saw in many areas.

WerenT women discouraged from thinkingabout combiniagmarriage aad a familywith a careerwhenyou were a Ph.D. sndentf

Most of my friends got married right after college, within two years of graduation, and they

started a family.

IB . MaRIAN DIEUOND:AN ORAL HISTORY COLLECE

,4nd theydidn'twork?

No, they didn't work.

It was verybrave ofyou to think thatyou were goingto be able to succeed ia attainiagyour dream.

Or just stubborn and thirking I had a drer"' and I was going to make it happen, and that's aII I cared about.

While you were in graduate school and doingyour lab work, how didyour fellow male students treatyou?

Pretty fine, mostly, because we all worked on a cadaver. There were four of us. Sure they played the male-$rpe tricls on me, like putting a rib in the penis and telling me it was the os-penis and what did I think about that. They had their fun and I had to put up with their 'We nonsense, but they treated me generally well. studied well together. We were all so serious. They were in the same situation, they wanted to learn and I wanted to learn. Ve all wanted to be successful in our chosen field.

You didn't seem to experience things aanyyoungwomenhave complained about, feeling isolated and noncollegial with their fellow researchers *ho *ere men.6

No, but again I keep going back to my upbringng. I always felt good around the men; they were mybrothers. Some of them obviously misinterpreted me. Some of the older men thought i was just there to find a husband, but that wasn't my goal. My [first] husband and I met up at International House, not in amongst the medical students.

You were very attractive so that might have somethingto do with it.

I didn't thirk about that because I wasn't attractive in the sense that the pretty girls were at Glendale High. Lots of them attended Glendale High because theywanted to be starlets and theyknewthattheycouldbe chosenthere. Theirgoalwasthetheater. Those of uswho wanted to study chemistrywere thought to be odd.

How easy or difficult was it to be accepted into the Ph.D. program?

I thirk it was exceedingly easy. AII I can remember is telling the people in the anatomy department that I wanted to come to graduate school here. They said you have to go fill out forms in Sproul Hall and get through officially, because there weren't manypeople who

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . L9 COLLEGE

wanted to come irr and just do graduate school. .It was the medical school everyone wanted.

You said there were very fewpeople getting a Ph.D. in anatomy. That must have been h"lPfirl foryou.

Yes, as I look back. I didn't have to go through what you have to today. It's very difficult now to apply and take all the tests. Then it was my motivation and having a reasonable record that showed I eould do the work, and they accepted me.

It was at a time when woaen were exlteeted to stay home and get matied.

That was the most prestigious route to tale.

Did you have any resistance to admissioa to the Ph.D. program, that the department might invest time aad funds inyou and thenyou'd get married and leave?

I don t think so. I don't know how they interpreted me, but recently I was spe"king at International House at some function and learned about my applicationto live there in ry49.For me to live at International House when I was a student, one of the professors of anatomy had to write me a letter of recommendation. The present director of International House went back and picked up that letter and it said that I was a very serious student and the professor thought I would get along fine at Interaational House. So you ean see how he interpreted me, but I don't think I even cared how people interpreted me, I just }crew what I neededto do.

Did you spend a year in the lab gettingyour Ph.D' ?

No, five years. I came in 1948. I took a master's first - I earned that in'49. My husband attained a job at Harvard in r95? and I stayed here [at BerkeleyJ and worked and earned my Ph.D. in'53 and then joined him in Cambridge-

20. MARIAN DTEUOND:AN ORAL HISTORY BncrNNrNG A CenEER AND A FaurLY

You got maried whileyou were ia the Ph.D. program?

Yes, I did.. I met Dick Diamond when I moved to International House. He was coming out withthree people withtennis rackets when I was going inwith a tennis racket. They said *Just they needed a fourth, so I said, a minute while I put my suitcase down and I'lI come," aud we played tennis.

How did the faculty ui ew your mariage ?

I thinkthey approved. They had all sorts of advice for me about getting married, but they gave me a beautiful wedding present. So they accepted me, and they accepted what I had to do.

It almost sounds too easy foryou in that it aII went so smoothly.

It went smoothly, but I don't talk about the times when they would make unwarranted senrd remarks because mywayto survive is to forget the unpleasant just as soon as I can. So many women become bitter at the way they're treated. One thing i said when I went to graduate school is don't become bitter because you are the only one who will suffer. I watehed many of these women technicians get calrcer at age fifty and die because there was something very uusatisfactory about their lives. Theywere just treated as technicians and they had no respect as women, as people, and their stress hit them hard. I watched them get sick and die. The menwere always making remarks to me, whywasn't I up inthe hills, how could I dare wear white. That's where their minds were coming from with those remarks.

Howdidyouhandle it?

I just smiled aad ignored them because I brew what I wanted. Recently, my little daughter summed a response up for me. I just loved her for it. I wished I had thought of it at the time, *Mom, but I didn't. My daughter is a physician. She just said, that's their problem.' I never thought of it that way. I thought they just don't know why I'm here and I'm not going to expiain it to all of them, I'm just going to do what I have to do. But, being a woman in a field

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE 2t CAREER AND FAMILY

of males, it was their problem.

How did theytreatyou ifyou made a mistake? f assume everybodymakes a mistake in the Iab at oae tiae or aaother. How would you handle that?

I would just keep working and try to achieve success. I was an athlete so I was used to gross motor action, I wasn't used to refined microscopic surgery and this is what I had to do. It took me a longtime to refine mytechniques to be able to do sueh surgery. If I lost a rat, I got another rat and worked for days and days and days to perfect the teehnigue.'We were cannulating thoracic ducts. It's pretty hard to see a thoracic duct to begin with and to cannulate it on a rat was equally hard, but I learned through pure determination. Let me return to the woman professor I told you about. On our first exam we had to make blood slides a:rd identify blood cells on the slides. I found the blood cells and I raised myhand forthe professorto come around and eheck me off. She just looked at my slide and *You said, have a dirty slide, I won't Iook at it, I'1I give you a F." I said, "But you don't hoow what I hrow about the blood." She said, "I don't care, that's not important. You have a dirty slide and I won't go on." That was the way I got started \^rith her. She was as rough to me as the men were kind, so I had that to put up urith. I got an A in the course, but not due to any kindness from her. Later she blocked me when I left here to go to Harvard. She wrote an unfavorable letter to the medical school, so I went over to the biologr labs instead and they hired me right away. As my daughterwould say, "It was her problem." But I suffered through it. Ifyou scratch the surface on anybody, you can find that life can be tough.

There are features of the graduate program that mandate thatyou uirtually spend all ofyour time doing research- Was that tnze foryou?

That's what I did to get my degree. I worked constantly in the lab for almost five years. I got my degree the same month I delivered my first baby, and I knew I wanted to stay home and take care ofherthe first year.

There's a uiewthat research schools are reluetant to have women as students because they might have childrea. How were you able to overcoae that?

I knew the first year I didn't want to work, but Cathy, my baby, was so independent that I hired somebody to take care of her and I took a half-time job in the labs at Harvard. But I wasn't career-oriented enough to get on the ladder for professorship. AII I wanted to do was keep up to date in the science. That was true when we went to Cornell also. My husband had the professorship. i would get someone to look after the baby inthe afternoons and I would hang around the zoology lab. I had to be there. Then they gave me a little project to do.

oo MeRIAN DteuoND:AN oRAL HISToRY CAREER AND FAMILY

Vhythe zoologrlab?

Because that's all there was. The professor who was working there was the neurobiologist that I had wanted to studywith at Hanrard. He had Ieft Harvard and nowwas at Cornell. I wasn't career-oriented like women are today in the sense of advancement. They want to get their Ph.D., theywant an assistant professorshif irnmediately and theywant to start going up the ladder. That wasn't in my cards.

Do you thiak that women today would be able to move up the ladder if they wait until atter they have their childrea ?

I have no idea. It's not that I didn't start my career. I would take any kind of job to get started. I began with an instnrctorship. They had never had a woman teacher in science at Cornell, so they gave me an instructorship that allowed me to teach every man's course when he took a sabbaticd, and that kept me in the field. It was ideal for my circumstances withyoung children.

Did they set that position up especially for you ?

Yes, because the professor in whose lab I was working, to show how things haFpen, was cited for contempt of Congress because he wouldn't saywho went to Communist meetings with him when he was a student at Harvard. This was duringthe McCarthy era. The president of Cornell University removed him from his teaching position in midsemester, with a class of ago students. So he turned in my name because he knew I had taught and I had a Ph.D. in anatomy. I was in the ideal plaee at the ideal time. I had mixed feelings takingthe job because he was being fired and I was coming in, but he said, "If you don't take it, somebody *Ok else will.' I said, y I'll take it." That's how I got started at Corne1l. Since I did well on my first year, they kept hitiog me to teach for other professors when they went on leave.

Didyouwant to teach?

I loved it because it was great while I had babies. I could leave them for a short time, go and teach aad come backhome again andwrite mylectures at home.

Afteryou were maried andyourhusband had the opportunityto go to Harvard, what was thatlike whenyou stayed in Berkeley?

I was working all the time. I knew what I had to finish. I had to have all the data finished so that when i took it to Harvard, I could be writing my thesis there. My daughter was born at Boston Lpng-In Hospital after I had been writing for a year and I finished my thesis there.

A LEADER IN THE FiELD OF SCiENCE z3 CAREER AND FAMILY

Wat did your family think ofyour anaageruent ?

My family lived in southem California and I think my mother had thirteen grandchildren. I was sort of the tail end on a longlist of children so I was quite left alone to do what I wanted to do.

Ifyou had had the opportunityto teach at Berkeley at that tiae, what would you have done, given that your husband had moved on to Haward ?

There was just no opporfunity that they would open up for a woman at that time. I just never anticipated anything. I didn't even plan for it, or even think of it.

How didyou andyourhusband deal with dual careerc?

I always felt that my husband came first, so in the early days of our marriage, I did the shopping and the cooking and the eleaning. I did all of these things and he went offto work and came back and enjoyed being taken care of. It's just the way my mother lived and it's the way I lived. That's the way life was. Whateveryou had to do on the side was fine.

Was there aproblem withboth ofyou workiagat Haruard?

No, I was just part-time. It wasn't a major academic position. This was a research position on a lobster's eye st:lk - that's what my professors were working on at the time. I utilized ' the surgical techniques that I had learned at Berkeley, studied antidiuretic effects of certain components in rats, collected urin" ,rrfl lmplanted tubes in the urinary system.

Were you doing that under somebody's auspices ?

I was hired bytwo professors, doing jobs for each of them.

,4nd then your little daughter was b orn.

Yes, and then my little daughter was born. I reme-her very clearly that one day I was so *You're tired working and being pregnant and my professor said, not the first to have worked and be pregnant." That just stopped any cornFlaint about tiredness.

Women like to be helpful and cooperative, which sometimes coaflicts with the male nature and the nature of researchers to be competitive. Was that true ofyou?

I think so. I noticed that especially when I start having women graduate students versus men graduate students. The men were intent on getting that paper out, one more paper to.

24. MARIAN DIEMOND:AN ORAL HISTORY CAREER AND FAMILY

give them more prestige so they could continue to find and keep jobs.'With the women students we used to sit with the problem only and discuss the science and the fun of the back and forth conversation of what it meant, and have a cup of tea. Oh, it was a much differeat environment.

Wo didyou talk to whileyou were a graduate student?

I lived at International House so I could tetk there, and I talked to the other male graduate studeats and the medical students. One of my projects as a first-ye ar graduate student was 'We working with three male students. were studying referred pain, so I worked right with them. Thatwas life. I could also talkwithtechaieians.

Could you talk to your husband ? Was that helptul ?

His work was nuclear physics, very, very bright. Very keen mind.

Could you talk with him about what you were doing? Did you underctand what he was doing and did he understand whatyou were doing?

To the degree that we needed to. I had the idea that bombardingparticles is what he was doing to learn the atomic structure and I was working on the nervous system and referred pain.

Was he supportive ofyou andyourwork?

That is or.e reason we got married. Most men didn't want a woman who was working. It was very clear they didn't want a woman who was going to be in graduate school because the accepted idea was that she stays home and cooks meals and keeps house and does not compete with him. Dick didn't care, he wanted me to be fulfilled and happy. That was fine vrith him - as long as I could get the shopping done and everything else, too.

You did everything, keep the house, take care of the kids

Once I started working in a salaried job that required I work outside the home, I had housekeepers. I used my salary. I felt anything I earned would pay for a housekeeper. That was appropriate, and it worked.

How long did you work in the lab at Harvard?

Probably for one year. I didn't work in the lab for the first half a year and then I didn't work when Cathywas born. The times getfuzzy. James Conant was president of Harvard [he later

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 25 CAREER AND FAMILY

beeame ambassador to GermanyJ , and his wife was a very lovely wot an. At my very first social function at Harvard, I sat at the table with Mrs. Conant and we got alongbeautifully. She asked if I wanted to be hospitality chair for the wife of the new president, Mr. Pusey. Mrs. Pusey had to have all these teas and social functions and theywanted me to be the social continuity person for all of these functions for Harvard and for the wonderful people who were coming through from all over the world. I said sure, that sounded like fun, so I did that too, when I had my little baby and was trying to do the research work.

Was it fiin?

At first, but later, no. I hew I didn't want to do this with my life. I told somebody about it. recently and they said they would have loved that job and why didn't I continue? I said there was no 6s2ning to it after a while, just meeting lots of people. There was no intellectual challenge.

It was a female thirtgto do.

It was a female thingto do. I got it out of my system and I didn t need to do that anymore.

26. MARIAN DleMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY A Xf/oMAN ScrEr\rrrsr

After a couple ofyearc at Haruard, your husband got a job at ComeII.

Yes, and so we moved up to lthaca. I wouid get somebodyto look after Cathy in the after:roons and I would hang out at the zoology lab. Then things opened up and I got a teaching job and eontinued to teach there for the rest of the four years until Dick received an invitation to return to Berkeley. That was ideal for me because I had read alout the kind of work I wanted to do that was going on at Berkeley. I came back here and got a lechrreship,

first in San Francisco in the School of Pharmacy, teaching anatomy. I taught there for a year and they decided I was okay so they moved me to the dental school. I taught there for a year and they thought I was reasonably good so they moved me to the medical school. I didn't like teachingthe medical students because all theywanted was to learathe material for tests. They had no time to be curious. I don't blame them, I blame the system. They had no time to ask guestions, just wanted to know if that question would be on the test, so I qoit. I just didn't want to stay there. I came over to Berkeley and was hired as a leeturer here and after that I worked into the aeademic system.

Bythe timeyou left Cornell, you had three children. How old wereyou?

I was thirty-one.

You saidyou wanted three children. Ifyou had had to choose between children and a career...

It would have been children. There's no doubt. When I come in here in the morning the first thing I do is look for e-mail from the kids before I do anything.

Vhat was happezingtoyour dream of doingbrain research?

I was doing brain research, too. I was working with a group here in this buiiding [Life Sciences]. I was working on rat brains and environmental effects. This is what I really wanted to do professionaily. I was doingthat half-time and being a leeturer half-time. Being a lecturer half-time, I could work at home and just come in to teach, so that was easy.

A LEADER IN THE FiELD OF SCIENCE + 27 A \T'OMAN SCIENTIST

While you were at ComeII, were you doing res earch ?

I started some research, but I didn't staywith it because I didn't like it. It wasn't what I wantedto do.

How about pressures to publish?

I never paid any attention. I've been sort of a maverick. I wasn't a fuIl-time faculty me'nher. I was a lecturer hired to teach. As soon as I came baekto Berkeley, I started to publishwhen I started doingthe research, but I wasn't publishingto be promoted. I was publishing because of the workwe were doing. It was a different kind of career from today's world.

You were able to do research even ifyou dida'tpublish?

I published myresearch, but I wasn't drivento pu-blish.

What would have happened ifyou werenT readyto pubhsh? Would that have been all right T4rith the university?

I have no idea. What we were doingwas so exciting and we were doing it fast and furious and it was coming along nicely and being continuously published. It wasn't that I was trying to publish to become a professor, but I was interested in what I was doing and wanted to publish.

lf,1to we re you wo rking with ?

There were three men, David Kreeh, Mark Rosenzweig and Ed Bennett and I was the female workingwiththem.

How did that come about?

I went to Krech's office. I had read abouttheirworkwhen I was at Cornell and justwent and said I want to work on this project because it's the kind of thing I want to do. I had my Ph.D. in anatomy and had taught for four years at Cornell. In those days there was money and they hired me.

Did they hireyou as a fiil| researcher or as a technician?

Definitely not as a technician. I would.not have done that. Theywere working on the rat brain. This is a photo of our team (shows framed photo). This is I(rech, then Rosenzweig and Bennett. David and Mark are psychologists, Edwas the biochemist and I was the

?B . MARTAN DrauoND:AN oRAL HISToRY A VOMAN SCIENTIST

anatomist. We made the United States Senate floor with our team because this was an ideal team to be doingbrain research. There were two psychologists forbehavior, a chemist and 'W'e an anatomist. worked together for fifteenyears.

fn one ofyour writings you described that whenyou discovered the breakthroughyou "raced across campus" to tell them. Whyweren tyou workingin the same lab?

The two psychology people had moved over to their own psychology building. When I ca",e here wewere dl inthis building the Life Sciences builfing, but newbuildings and fields were blossoming and they expanded into other buildings.

A LEADER IN THE FiELD OF SCIENCE . 29 3o - MARIAN DleMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY Tsr STRUGGLE FoR TUI{uRE

Once you started teaching at Berkeley, vrere you oa the tenure track?

Oh, gosh no. I started as a lecturer. I was a lecturer for seven years, but that allowed me to do myteaehing and my research, and to be with my familywithout the tight demands I would have had on the ladder. As a lectureryou don't have to publish. As a researcheryou want to because you're accomplishing something of value. My research wxs geyn in g out of my work with the three men who were in different departments. My teaching was in the anatomy department.

Canyou stay indefinitely as a lecturer? 'Women did in those days, but I saw them and I didn'1 think I would want to end my career as a lecturer. I was fortunate because one of my professors said it was time to get me offthe lectureship and on the ladder. He came to me and put forth the papers to promote me to an assistant professor. By then I had enough publications from my research work and had proven I could teach at the university leve}. I had my own courses that I was teaching and they saw I could succeed and brought me in and I moved up the ladder. I was an assistant professor for five years, and an associate professor for three or four years- -one comes up for tenure at the end of the assistant professorship- - and then I got my tenure. I fought for it because my chairman- inthose days itwas a different chairman-blocked mypromotion. He didn't think I could teach. I went to the dean and said I had all the credentials to obtain my associate professorship and the dean put it through. Years later, I asked the chairman why he had not promoted me. He said he had "to piek on somebody," he couldn't give everybody a tenureship when they came up for evaluation, so he gave the men their tenure, but he blocked me.

Doyou recall whatyearthat was?

No. Unpieasant memories I don't recall. I don't want to weigh onthem.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 3T TENURE

It would have beea in the '5os.

Yes' it had to be because I was made an assistant dean while I was still an assistant professor. I reme"therthe dean sa;ring, "This doesn't guarantee you tenure whenyou become an assistant dean." I said I don't care, I'd like to become a dean because there are things inthe dean's office I wish to accomplish.

Is there apoliqrthat ifyou don? make tenureyou'd have to leave. Wereyou concetzed about that?

No. I guess 1 6i41'11hink about failing. I had worked hard and could see that I was d.oing a job good aecording to the evaluations. I could see that I was doing things that everybody else was doing and I just assumed that I should earn my evaluation.

That's in the ideal world. ktow, I and I did get blocked. He didn't give me my earned promotion and he gave the men theirs for that year and I had to go fight for mine. That was very traumatic.

lYhat happ ene d wh en yo u app e al e d ?

I won the appeal and became an associate professor. After that I got my regular promotions. It's so easy to talk about it now. It was so tough then in many ways. I realize how tough it was because I asked my children to give me the three best parts of having a working mother and the three worst things ab\out having a working mother. Myyoungest daughter, who's a *The physician, said, best things were you gave us our freedom, you served. as a role model and we were proud of you. The worst thi::g was you kept coming home aad complaining about how tough it was, and we couldn't do anything.' I didn't think of that, I just came home and aired my problems with the family, like we all do. We share with our spouses how tough life is out there. Go out and do a good job, come back and complain.

Wenyou appealed the tenure, didyou have support from colleagues?

I obviously had to have letters from colleagues to come up for tenure at all. I don't know the mechanismthat overrode the chairman's decision. But bythen I was movingalongfast and everything was going well

When did you sturt working full tiae?

I don't recall beeause I didn't pay attention. At the universityyou have what are called nine-

3z MaRIAN DleMoND:AN oRAL HISToRy TENURE

month appointments. The university doesn't payyou duringthe suuuner and the professors work on grants, oryou had an eleven-month appointment and the universilr paid you for the fuIl eleven months. I had nine-month appointments, so I had summers free. What I did was work sort of three- quarter time throughout the year. I would go home at three when the kids got out of school, but I ,"ade up for the time during the surnmers. Nobody paid much attention to what I was doirg. My timing helped me get thxough the system, but no one complained because I did the work evidentlywell enough. If I wasn't doing it well I'd have been out on my ear, but as long as I was doingwhat everybody else was doing, nam'ely teaching, publishi''g and service to the universifr, I could ynanage it in my own way. Some would say, "You have to go to a seminar at fourthis afternoon." And I'd say, "Noo I'm going home." So I'd go home.

'Women scientists have complained that they had to do more work than their male colleagues to suceeed. Didyou have that experience?

I alwaye did more work because I was told to do more to make up for my ow:n deficiencies. How do you measure your deficiencies? I lorew I was doingwell because the students always ra::I

Was your husband oa a tenure track also?

He was a pure research scientist. He freguentlyworked at LBL (Lawrence Berkeley l,aboratory) from 8 a.m. to midnight. He received the highest prize for physics and the highest prize for ehemistry in his soeieties in the United States. He is a first-class researcher.

He worked I a.u.to midnight?

You have to whenyou're working on those unique machines. When the machines are 11nniag, the hours can even be midnight to eight in the morning. They take the midnight shift or they take other shifts. It takes a great deal of money to operate those large accelerators, so scientists work around the clock. Those men loved what they did - we all did. \[/e were so focused.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE .33 TEN URE

Wen you had a research proJect, what did you do at aight ifyou stafted to tan a projeet?

I only reme"'her spending one or two nights in this buitding. I was usually home.

Soyou were a-ble to completeyourlab work duringthe day.

I had lab teeh:ricians helping me. too, and that made a big differenee. We worked hard and scheduled ourwork carefully. Itwas reallyfun. W'omentecb:ricians, bright as pennies...

3z., - MARIAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HISToRy THs ScrENTrFrc RTsEARCH EirrvrRoNMENT

The last time we talked, you were describiag an incident in the lab where somebody was ttying to sa-botage you or make things difficult for your lab.

Oh, yes. All of the science departments--botanR zoolory, anatomy/physiolory, etc--were separate units in those days. Now we're all in the department of Integrative Biology. In our department of anatomy/physiology, the business officerhadthe hood removed from ourlab and put out in the hall and the women had no way to get rid of the fumes from the chemicals they were using. The hood sat in the hall aad we had to keep reguesting him to please put it back. I don't hrow what he had for brealfast one monring, but findly he felt it was time for the hood to come back, and it came back again, but we couldn't uaderstand why he had such satisfaction putting this stu'nbling block in our way.

Had he been hostile to )our tab before that timte?

Never particularly overtly friendly, but never hostile. There was another professor who tried to take my head technician away from me because she was so good and we *"1s flsing so well. He didn't tell me, but he asked her if she would come to work for him. She told me that he didn't larow she and I had lcrown each other for decades. I met her when I was a graduate student and we are still friends.

Vas it unusual forlabs to tryto steal good people from otherlabs?

I honestly don't hrow. I really try to keep my blinders on and just do my own work, and. realize when something bad happens to you, you have to fight it.

V'ere you able to talk to researchers ia other labs aboutyour work and could you go ta them forhelp?

I'm sure I could if I wanted to. It's awfuIly hard to say specifically what others did because we had a team of us who worked well, with [Mark] Rosenzweig, [Edward] Bennett and [David] Krech. There were four already in our team and for me to go to other labs wasn't particularly necessary. For fifteen years we had a good working team.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD oF SCIENCE . 35 RESEARCH ENVIRONMENT

Wouldyou describe the researchyou were doing?

The research basically was trying to find the effects of experience on the brain chemistry and aratomy. Since we were a team, we had psychologists who were eoncerned with the behavior of the animal, the biochemist was concerned with the chemistry and I, beirg an anatomist, wa:eted to brow what was happening to the structure in response to experience. We would sit at a round table like this (indicates the small round table at which we are sitting) and plan experiments, then go to our respective areas to do the work.'When our results fit together, it was just beautiful.

How long had Rosenzweig, Beanett and lhech been working on the project whea you joined the team?

They had been working on this project since the late r95os and I came around 196o-5r.

Were they I o oking fo r you, o r were you I o okiag for them ?

I was looking for them. I had read about their work when I was at Cornell and I thought that was exactlywhat I wanted to do. When I came here [to Berkeleyl, I went to the libraqy and read up on as much as I eould about their work before I went to see them. They were downstairs inthis building (Ijfe Sciences building). Theywere surprisedthat I lorew so much about their work and I said that was because it was so excitingto me. I had no trouble fitting right in. They just hired me. I had my own lab aud worked with my anatomy friends because we were trained inthat direction.

Did you alreadyhave a lab?

I didn't have my own lab because I was just coming back to Berkeley from Cornell, but, because I had taken my Ph.D. here, one professor I had worked for gave me a room in the anatomy department with other people that were working there. I had no problem at the time just sliding in smoothlyto workwiththem.

Who was doingthe structural workbeforeyou came along?

Nobody. The group was interested inbehavior and ehemistry. Minewas a new input.

Did you have other options for research ifyou hadn't found this team?

I'm sure one could find something, but I followed my passion. I had blinders on to do something and was not looking for other things. I hrew this is what I wanted and I came

35 . MARiAN DleMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY RESEARCH ENVIRONMENT

right to the souree.

Where did the funds come from forthis work?

The Natio',al Science Foundation and the National Institute of Health (NIH). Krech, Roser:zweig and Bennett had put in the grants and they needed people to work. Nothing specificallywas inthere for me.

Did you personally apply for grants while you were in that department ?

I did. I had grants as well when I got started.

Did you have any problems getting them ?

Not when I wanted them. I don't always want them. They keep telling me now to apply for grants and I said I don't need them.'W'e've got cupboards filledwith slides of brains that I can sit down and studyfortwentyyears if I want to, so I don't need the fundi:og. lVho fundsyou now?

I applyforuaiversityfunding, which is minimal, but it's enoughto payforphones and things of this nature. I've just finished with three Ph.D.s and I applied to different units for their fuading. I was on a program with Norman Cousins who was interested in cancer, laughter, the brain and the immune system in a general way. My project was specifically to be mappingthe brains of immune deficient animals. I knewwhere the moneyhe Ladwas being managed and I applied to them. I got grants for my graduate student everyyear for fouryears. My other graduate student checked small foundation funding and found a place in Elorida that gave him $5a,ooo to carry out his graduate work, so there's fuading out there if you go looking for it.

I've read that it has been difficult for women scientists to get fuadiag, paftly because they weren't taken seriously. Areyou aware of that?

I don't think so. As I mentioned last time, they read me as beingpretty serious so reeently I didn't have too muchtrouble if I wanted the money. Earlier, if I said I was goingto do electron microscopy because I wanted to try something new, they said, "'Wbll, your specialty is light microscopy, you should stay with what your specialty is. " So I was having trouble convincing them I wanted new things.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 37 RESEARCH ENVIRONMENT

*they?" Who are

I guess it was NIH at the time, the grantingfoundation.

How many hours did you work oa this projeet [the original project with R, B and KJ each . day? 'When I came back from Cornell to work here, I had three children. I was definitely pulled as to how much I could do in myprofsssienal life versus mypersonal responsibilities of being with my children. I worked mostly 9:oo to 3:oo each day because I could get someone to come in and take care of my children duringthose hours when I needed help. Mostlythe helper was a housekeeper cleaning and doing laundry as well as baby-sitting.

Was there a senior member ofyour team?

Yes. It worked out that that became a problem later on. When we started I definitely was low Person oathe totem pole because two of themwere dreadyprofessors, Krech and Rosenzweig in psycholory, and Bennett was a senior seientist in biochemistry. I tvas coming in just as a leeturer and research assistant. As the program began to get notoriety, then it was called "Krech's Program." I didn't care what it was called, I justwanted to work, but that title hurt one of the other mem.bers of the team, so eventually Krech broke off and that Ieft th:ee of us withthe project. Yes, there was the competition amongst the team.

I'm sutprised thatyou wouldat care, because that would meaa somethingforyou on dow the line.

I guess I was so interested in what I was doirg and so concerned with my domestic ro1e, I wasn't objecting at that time. Later on, after I had worked for some tirne, then I would sit and say I should be moving forward. I was a lecturer for seven years. At the time that didn't bother me. I knew I didn't want to always be a lecturer, but I wasn't ready to fight for it. Then one of my professors said it was time for me to get on the ladder and he pushed for me to get there.

How much time were the other memb ers ofyour team allo cating to this proj ect ?

This was their major research. Theywere doingtheir teaching and other responsibilities, but theyweren't carrying out other research projects.

3B . MARIAN DleMoND:AN oRAL HrsroRy RESEARCH ENVIRONMENT

*breakthrough?" Doyou recall the

I recall very clearly when we first saw that we hacl big changes in the eerebral cortex anatomy as a consequence of enriched environ"ments, and then repeated it and had the same results.

'What were the changes?

Showing a statistically significant 5 percent difference between the enriched and impoverished animals inthe thicloress of the cortex. The thickness of the cortex means the size of the cells, the size of the dendrite branching, the number of blood vessels, which we eventually measured. At first we just measured, underthe microscope, the thickness on You don't see the brain differenees with the naked eye. You have to 'nicroscopic sections. micra, and then make -icroscopic sections and cut these little rat brains very thin, six measure them very precisely to piek up 5 percent differences that are highly statistically significant. When we showed that, I remem-ber running over to Dr. Krech because he was *Do the senior man. He just looked at me and said, you realize what this means?" I didn't have the background to truly know what it was in the big picture, I hrew what it was in our project and what we wanted to do. Then we realized we had something big.

It souads like the breakthrough came about because ofyour anatomical work rather than the psychological or chemical research.

'WeIl, theywere finding chemical differences, smaller ones. Chemistry is changing all the time, with problems tryingto interpret what it means at anytime. Anatomy is as good today are as it was two hundred years ago, so if you show the structural change, those differences as good in our work here since 1964. The data hasn't changed. The ideas associated with the chemical changes have changed because so many more chemicals have been discovered in the brain. When Bennett was doingthe chemistrythere may have been five neuro- transmitters lclowa, at most. Acetylcholine is a peripheral transmitter and people didn't even believe acetylcholine was in the brain. Yet they were finding the esterase for it. Acetylcholine is so unstable it breaks dowa fast, but the esterase doesn't. It can be'stable for six hours or so and so they can make accurate measurements and were getting z percent changes. At first people didn't really believe that ehange existed- -people find it hard to accept new ideas - - so they had problems getting used to the new data. Then somebody would show ketokinase is changing, and somebody would show serotonin is changing, and you lose the good tight grip onwhat all this means because so manythings are charging and interacting. All of this is difficult to put together and we still don't Imow the meaning. In anatomy, you show either that you've enlarged a structure or that you haven't, so it was clearcut.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE .39 RESEARCH ENVIRONMENT

,4ctually it was your part of it that revealed the anatomical ehaages with earichment. Were you recogzized for that?

No, I was theirtechnician. I rememberwhenthis professor came up from southern California and he said, You have a good-looking technician there." That was his cornznent for me. So they didn't really think of me as a colleague at a1l in the beginning.

That must have beenhard.

I had so many things to think about, and I thirk this is what saves one. You don't stop to fight each little sore point, and that's true today. If something goes wrong, I want to bury it and get moving fast because I see so many people who take time out for lawsuits and all ' these thiogs and what they get in the long run I don't }ooow. It doesn't mean I didn't hurt, and it doesn't me:ux I wasn't aware of it, but it wasn't worth my effort when my main goal was finding out how this brain works-

How was the breakthrough announce d ?

I guess Science Magazinewas the main jouraal where the study was first published.

Wo authored the publication of the results?

All four of us. It was alphabetical; Bennett, Diamond, Krech and Roser:znteig.

It was published in t954,. What impact did it haue onyour career?

I don't L.ow because I just continued to do what I wanted to do. The men received the honors from their organizations. Krech was honored because he was a mem-ber of the American Psychological Association. I was a memler of the Association of Anatomists, but nobody paid any attention. But again, that wasn't really something I was going to fight for or even askthem about.

I would think the Association ofAnatomists would care because it reflected on their society, and everygroup needs successes.

The American Association of Anatomy still doesn't know what I do, I don't think. The support is strictly inthe psychology realm.

+o . MARIAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HisroRY RESEARCH ENVIRONMENT

WerenT other anatomists able to build oayour findingthat the eortexthickens?

Nobody else picked up on the anatomical phase of the study because the work is so tedious. Whenyou do chemist{F, you cantakeyourlittle sample of material directlyfromyour

animal, grind it uP, Put it in a spectrophotometer or some s6'"Farable machine and you have an instant arlswer. With anatomy, you first have to profuse the little animal. That takes a while to get that brain hard enough so you can eut it, and that takes days and months to get all the cuttings. Thenyou mount and stain and measure. The whole process takes about a year for one experiment. Morphology is terribly tedious and this is why nobody really likes to do Erantitative morpholory. V'e said it was fun because the ladies would come i:r and work half-time, and we'd be sitting at a bench and each one had differeat things to do, but very serious, very good workwas being done. But we could stop and have some cake and tea and if somebody had a problem at home, we'd share it a little bit. The congeniality of the womenworkingtogetherwas ideal because I didn't have many outside friends. I didn't have time for them because I was with my family orwith mywork. Havingthis group of verybright, understandingwomen--I always saidthe brightest ones became technicians because they didn't have any responsibility after five o'clock.'We had to 'We go home and prepare our lectures. had really lovely relationships workingtogether. 'Whenwe finallywroteap EnrichingHeredity,whichwas from our researchwork, theywere so pleased that their names were recorded for history.

*we"? lf,Zto doyou meanby

My own lab. I wanted this publication from work in my own iab. I just needed a record that this workwas all done in my lab. Awoman from the Free Press, a subsidiary of McMillan, said, "I think it's time to write up yourwork, wouldyou be interested?- I said I sure would. 'l7henyou're I worked guite closelywith her as an editor. so focused onyour science, you're not superb expressing yourself in writing because you have to be so precise in what you're reporting for your scientific journds that nobody but scientists would care to read your story. But if you want to loosenup a little bit, make it interesting for somebody else, you need an outside editor.

Did you take it on the road, so to speak?

No, I didn't do any of that at that time. It was strietlywork and write, everythingwas published. Only more recently have I been on the road so much, especially with this last

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE 41 RESEARCH ENVIRONMENT

book, The Magic Trees of the Mind.7

When the research with the team uras published, did anybodytake it oa the road?

In those days, you tookyour work to your scientific society. I spoke at the American Association of Anatomists. I was the only one reporting our kind of data because nobody else was dsingthis kind of work.

Howwas it received?

I guess with interest, but nothing that anybody applauded or wrote up in joumals on their own. The workwent mostly into psychology jour''als or a few anatomy journals. Oh, yes, Scientific, merican arldtL;e American Scientist did publish major articles on our anatomy, as did Psychologr Today.I think I was too busy consideringthe next experiments to concentrate on the publicity.

Wat didyou research a{teryou finished thatproject?

We continued in the lab because there were so many questions to ask. You had to first find out what stnrctures were changing, so we had to get methods to measure the diameter of the cells to see if the cell body was growing, then you had to count the glial cells to see if they

were multiplF"S. See the picture onthe wall behindyou? That is a sguare vnillimglsl ef 321 brain tissue. Those cells all had to be counted. We did that in mylab, but again, we all did it. Ruth did the photography, we did the countingi; we did all sorts of things. Everybody was doing this tedious kind of work, but it wasn't tedium for us because we }rrew in the end we were going to have something great if it showed what we were after- -and it did. My particular lab was strictly guantitative morphology.

Was part of the impetus forthat to showthose men...?

I don't thinl< so. I don't think that was ever part of the game, except when I found that one of themwas tryingto take one of mytechnicians away. Ruthused swearwords I didn't even know she had ever heard when she defined the man who asked her to leave my lab for his. She said she never would have gone to workwith him.

4z . MARIAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HISToRy RESEARCH ENVIRONMENT

Wbre you continuiagto work with the team?

The team worked together, yes, but I also did lots of work separately. I wanted to work with female rats and the male colleagues weren't that interested in working with female rats, so we did our erperiments over in my lab with females and found guite different results than were foundwith male rats. The tdkthat i gave to Women's ForumVestwas a.bout sex differences in the brain, and they said that lthe talk] was the biggest turnout they'd had. It's so clearcut, no dou-bt about it, onthe average. If you measure the brains of tnelve animals of each sex, and take the average results, you find very decided differences between the male and female brains that we can pickup very clearly.

Does thathold true forhumans also?

Yes, almost everythingwe've done has beea shown some way or other later in humans. Not as thoroughly as we did because it takes too longto section a whole hu-an brain. But investigations on humans c.ul now show that the structures that go between the hemispheres are larger in females than in males, which gives us more s)nnmetry. The male brains are more asym.metrical between the two hemispheres. Removal of the testes reverses the male as;nnmetry in most parts. Removal of the ovaries reverses the female s;mmetrical pattern and leads to aslaoc.metqy. We know these patterns are sex steroid driven. Whenever I speak, I can say that this is beautiful because there are four brains working together instead of two, male right, male left, female right and female left. Withthese data, we have the chance to tryto understand each otherbetter. That's my greatest role in this study of gender differences, not or:ly to understand the differences between the sexes, but among the sexes. If ladies who want to stay home and do eurtains all day, that's beautiful as far as I am concerned. Then there are those of us who want to be out getting new information about science; our brains are different, our hormones are different, so weore all combinations of whateveros inside.

Did it help you uaderstand your fellow scientists ?

Completely- -and husbands. Long before the scientific results, my sister-in-law and I said that men are focused in their work and we had to be readyto go in all directions. For example, my teaching out in the schools was so different from what the males wanted. None of them cared about sharing their b:owledge with little children - -'"Why aren't you doing your research?"--focused attention. But caregiving, that's innate inus females, and in some males. To have discovered new knowledge to share with students and the public is the best of all worlds from my point of view.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE .43 RESEARCH ENVIRONMENT

You said nobodywas vety interested inyour findings at the time. llh.at were their reaetions Iater on?

To what I was doing? I thir:kthe whole project--we were thought of in manyways as a *project,"--showirgthe results that the brain could change with experience. I represented a project, is the way I looked at it. I liked it that way because the chemistry was supportrng what we were findingwith our anatomy, and the behavior also supported the anatomy and chemistry, If you get a bigger braia, you run a better maze. Our project was reported, I was told' on the U.S. Senate floor as being an ideal combination for a research team in biology because we had the behaviorist, the ehernist and the anatomist. But we gradually learned that the ego plays a very strong role. It was the ego that separated us eventually. Krech aad Rosenzrireig did not see eye to eye, so Krech left the project. And I wanted to work with female as well as old animals. I was curious that if enrichrnent works with young anivnals, will it work with older, middle-aged animals? My colleagues were not interested in old- aged rats. I think it's often hardei for men to accept agng. I think most of us admit that. It's not a criticism, just that we've had different life experiences.

How did the scienee communitlr accept your findings ?

People reeognizedlfug imFortance of these studies. The picture of the enriched rats was on the cover, the front cover, ol ScientificAmericaain rg1?.The word spread fast that this was a bigfind.

How about some ofyour other findings?

'We I think the sex difference in the brain was a very important finding. had only worked with male rats when I joined Krech, Rosenzrrveig and Bennett. For the obvious reason, they didn't want to work with females because the hormonal differences could be modifying the enrichment effects. The men didn't want to be involved with the estrous cycle component because if we took the brain of a female one day of the estrus cycle, different results might oecur from other days of the cycle. Complications might develop, so they continued to work with the male rat. When I separated and worked with both male rats and female rats, we found differences in the brain patterns. My colleagues at Harvard didn't believe we were finding that you could actually measure thiekness differenees in the cerebral cortex between males and females. Norm Geschwin was one of the leading neurologists in the country. 'Wb all respected him. I just loved him because he would say, "Marian, what are you showing now?" He reallywas in my sa-F when I'd go to a meeting. Nobodywas threatened bywhat I

44. [dARrAN DlaMoND:AN oRAL HrsroRy RESEARCH ENVIRONMENT

was doing and he was secure in what he did. He was really one of the great leaders in neuro- science, a very creative thinker.

ft seems to me that ifyou doaT include both sexes in the research, it is oalyhalf research.

I thir:Icthat's what we feel now, especially in my lab, but sometimes, even now, researchers don't report what sex they're using, which is amazing.

How did the medical communit7rreaet toyourwork?

When we first started teaching in public schools about the human body, every system of the human body, the doctors would say that you're threatening us. I said, "No, I just want the medical practice to have a dialogue instead of a monologue because most people don't understand the terminology that you use." If we start with little kids learning about a hlryothalamus or about a pituitary, then they can grow up being able to talkto their doctors. I had several physicians feel threatened that I was teachingthe public their field, so to speak. That's not so today. It was more when I was on my own out teaching. I set up the progtam with Bobbie Singer. She was very good. She was a public health specialist and she and I worked together to set the program up in Albany schools atout twenty-three years ago. When we began, Bobbie had people in the communifr get involved. There were doctors and nurses and teachers and parents listening to what we wanted to bring into the schools. They were all in favor and gave suggestions on whether we were getting too so,mFlex for the little people, whether we should give one subject to the seventh 'We graders instead of to the kindergartners. had community input to get the program started, so there were doctors there. I also wanted to bring older people into the sehools. I remem.ber eoming back from Cornell and thi.l.ir€ one thing I want to do is have retired people help in the schools to teach the little people. The first response i got from an administrator in the Berkeley schools was, "Oh, those old people would scare the little kids." I was just at a retirement program last Saturday and witnessed first hand how far we have come.

Howdidyou think of the schoolprogram?

I wanted children to learn anatomy, to learn about their bodies. Why wait to go to college to Iearn? Louise Rasmussen let us bringthree of my Cal students into her classroom. I knew Louise from undergraduate days. She was teaching fifth or sixth grade in Albany schools and I said, "Louise, I'd like to see how my shrdents would do in a classroom. Can we come?" She

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . +5 RESEARCH ENVIRONMENT

said sure, so three of my students brought the skeletons and brains and other organs. Other 'We teachers asked, "!Vhat's happening in Louise's class? want those students in our classrooms too.'

What was your reason for doing this?

Many reasons. One' I was tired of teaching my Cd students one semester and they would forget the subject the next semester. I figured if they went to the schools to teach, they would e"'hed the material they learned. Then, I would feel better about teachingthem each year browing they haven't lost it all. Two: The ehildren will learn about their bodies when they're little and eurious. Theywant to lc,row and nobody's answeringtheir guestions. Three' It was teachingthe Cal students that they, too, could stand before a group and speak, that they, too, could be teachers. M*y of them were shy and they didn't keow they could do any of this, but after a time or two, they said this is fun.

lXZere these undergraduates? How didyou choose which students?

These were undergraduates. I chose those who wanted to go, andwho had earned anAor B grade in my anatomy class. They reeeived two university credits if theytaught in the pubtic schools for a semester. It's the best resource in the world if it's well organized because so *I'm many students say theywant to teach, but they get a C in the course. I sap sorry, you didn't learn the material and I can't let you teach those children. An A or a B is the *I'm prereguisite." They say, "But we love little kids." I say, sorry." I'm very strict so the students who go out into the elementary schools have learned their anatomy. That's really what's the problem inthe public schools today. The teachers do not knowtheir science, they do not lcrow their subject matter. I am appalled to L"ow what little knowledge many of them have to share.

Wen you had the idea for the program, how were you able to set that up at the univercity?

I had to work through the senate. I had to go to the committee on eourses and design my course, explain what I wanted to do. Just like any course, a lot of preparation went into getting the progr4m started.

d!6 MaRTAN DleMoND:AN oRAL HrsroRy WoRKTNG MoTHER: A BareNCrNc Acr

You've done so many extra things besides your research aad classroom teaching aadyour writiag. How didyou find the time and energrto do everything?

I had lots of good people to work with. To start with, my first husband accepted the fact that I had to be working, so he wasn't objectingto myplans. People said I should be home instead of beingwhere lwas, but I thi*we organizedprettywell at home- l knewthat I didn t want to malce beds every day, and. I knew I {idn t want to {o the wash, and,l didn t want to do the cleaning, because I figured that is routine and it just has to be done. But I wanted to shop for and cook for my children. I knew what I wanted them to eat, and I beew the kind of clothes and }jnd home enuiroarueat I wanted for them. Shoppiag was on Saturday. I had. very good housekeepers who would work with me, and my husband was very supportive.

In what ways was he supportive?

He didn't object to what I was doing. He was so busywith his workthat it was okay as long as I took care of the household and the children. I felt that the money I earned would pay for my balysitter, so it was all sort of self-contained. The nu-her one factor was that everybody was healthy. If I had gtven birth to a baly who was not healthy I couldn't have done any of this.

Wat happened whenyour children were sick?

They weren't sick that much. Catherine's record at Kaiser was teeny- -the first part of my tdk to the older people last Saturday stressed diet as number one in irnportance. First you eat well and take care of this body, and thenyou ssn ghallsngs it. My husband says ghallsngs is first. I say no, you don't feel like challenging anything if your body isn't healthy. Viola, my housekeeper, would be at the house when the children got sick. DearViola was with me for twenty-fouryears. I went through several pickings first because Viola didn't strike me as

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE <, 47 L__

VORKINC MOTHER

wzts warm hearted and being lively enough to be stimulating for the kids, but what she was lives in reliable. She was good. When Rick, Cath and I went to visit her recently--she *Viola, baew she Richr",ond--I said, what didyouthinkworkingwithus?" and she said she was loved. I saidthat's all I care to hear.'w'asn't that beautifuI?

their spouses aad women in the scieaees have talked about the support they expected from 'W'as the support theygot. the supportyou got the supportyou expected? me--I know Oh, yes. I don'tthinkthat was ever aproblembecause mymothertaught so what I inherited women think it's terrible- -she taught me to keep my finances separate, I had a passion from my mother I kept separate. I didn't touch my ir:heritance excePt when I figured I would pass to go somewhere, then I took a child with me. I just kept that because it onto my children, so I didn't drainthat'

of the In terms of family responsibilities, you've said you expected to, and did, take care house aad the children.

He'd find a way' I'd Right, but if I couldn't do it or was going someplace, Dick would step in' respect' communicate I need help here and hed be there. He was very considerate inthat

Whenyou looked atyour career and at his career, whose was the more important? Rick's lady was definitely. All the parties we had were for his colleagues, not mine. His. His *I used to make friend said recently she wanted to make a baked Alaska this year and I said, cooking for the most gorgeous baked A]askas, I'1I teach you how. " I loved all the elegant my Dick's physics friends who eame from al} over the world, but I wasn't entertaining hirn. I loved bioiogyfriends. This is what I felt was important for his career and for But was pretfy, it was a doing the cooking and having the kids all dressed up for the occasion. It very pretty, functional time of life.

How didyou regardYour career? and It was basicallyvery important, and I felt I was lucky. I was at a major university teachingthe subjects I loved. I was teaching anatomy and neuroanatomy. I was doingbrain research.

tffould you have given it up ifyour husband had said we need you at home? make it work. It never It's a good question. I doubt it. I'd find a wayto do both and somehow occurred., Dickwas always willingto tryto help when needed.

4B . MARIAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HisroRY VORKINC MOTHER

So women ofyourgeaeration didnt expectyourspouses to assume more family responsibilities?

No, I did.n't expect it. I erpected him to go to work and do his work and I had no begnrdging preparing meals and putting them on the table. It was only after the shildlsn left that I realized I wasn't getting any gompliments for doing all this. That's what made me think twice. When I met Arre he was just the opposite. He made me feel so good toward myself; i wasn't just a worker-bee.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 49 5o . MARIAN DteuoND:AN oRAL HISToRY GaI NI I\t G REC oGNITT o I{

Doyou thinkyourpath to credibiliywas different from a man's?

Very much so.'When I took my sunrey of women in science, they said don't expeet to be aeknowledged foryourwork until afteryou're fifry, so I had that eoncept planted in my mind. When I didn't get credit for my work, I said few other women were getting credit 'Women either. Today's world is very different. want to be right up in front and moving fonrard on their own. Sometivnes it's a little scary because they get a little too aggressive.

Was that difficult foryou not to get credit for the thiags you did?

My name was on the Papers, and Krech was exceedingly sensitive to me. He was truly my friend. Some of the others were a little more competitive and they didn't like it that I was getting credit also, forwhatever reasons I don't know, just differences iu personalities. I knew I could trust him [IGech] and people said I could trust him. You had to get letters of supPort foryour promotions and if some of the others wrote for me, their letters weren't as good as Krech's, and people would tell me that.

Wenyour research team separated, why didn tyou go with lhech?

I was moving on my own pretfy well by thea. I was going into the aging brain project and into the female brain, and these were definitely aot things he wanted to do at that time. But it was rather dear that when he retired, he would come and sort of hang around my lab. See, the male brain changes with aging, it becomes more female as the testosterone level goes down and so he was much more gentle. Where I sawthis phenomenon occur, which has nothingto do with my research, was on National Public Television a.bout Russian generals. Those old Russian generals were trying to figure out why they had been so aggressive when they were young. I just sort of sat there and chuckled. They were so focused and so competitive, and nowthey had become sweet, gentie old men.

was there a momentwhenyou realized thatyour careerwas takingoff?

I thirl< when I received my tenure. I felt very good then that I was at least accepted at this

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 51 CATNING RECOCNITION

great universrty by my colleagues who had voted for me, for me to make tenure. I rememler I went out and bought myself a big steak and ate it all. That's how I celebrated. My mother had taught me not to mention my rewards, so I kept guiet and privately celebrated.

Some people say it was harder for women scieatists to succeed at that time thaa it is now.8.

I brow it was because I'd go to a meeting - this is why I found it so hard. I had three brothers so I was used to treatirg men as equals, but at scientific meetings I was always being misunderstood forwhy I was there. That was the hardest thiog.

Inwhatway?

Frequently, the first thingtheywould say is, 'Mrat night are you leaving?" before they would ask anything about my science, because theywanted to see if they could date me the night before I left. I learned that later, that this is what they thought. They were hormo.ally *female" programmed that females aren't scieatists, especially someone who wants to be because most of the women who went i:rto science back then were definitely more masculine grpes and the men could handle them. I don't blame them, this is just the way it was. Those women were no'threat to the men, they didn't arouse their senral desires. They *lady'' were more like men. But if you came dong and you were trying to be a scientist, they couldn't handleyou. Even in publishing my first paper, Krech wanted to put my name in parentheses. I said, *David, what are you doing? I did this work." He said, "I've never published a paper before with a woman. I didn't hrowwhat to do.'And he was as fair as they came, he just hadn't been educated. I think finding sex differences in the brain was of great value for my colleagues because they saw nowwhy I wasn't doingthings the waytheywere -theywere always telling me what I had to do and I didn't want to do it their way. I think the approach depends on the hormones of both groups, because that's what we're driven by and many men now understand. They've adjusted beautifully to all these gorgeous girls who are working in science today.

What happened to those women in the past?

Those gorgeous women? Possibly they stayed home and raised their babies or accepted jobs where more women were employed. They weren't in the labs. My sister-in-1aw, a very attractive lady, would neverwork in "those dirty old }abs." She graduated from college, but she wanted to be a mom and a homemaker, and that's what she did.

You mentioned thatyou were appointed assistant dean in the College of Letters and

5z MentAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HISToRy CAININC RECOCNITION

Sciences. Why were you chosea?

You want me to tell you what I found out after I was chosen? I thought finallythey recognized that I loved my biology and was competent. Since deans are chosen to represent their disciplines, I accepted the position with all fainress, and believing that finally somebody said I was a good biologist. One day, I said to another associate dean, a physicist, that I felt so good being chosen for mywork in biology. He said, "That's not the reason he chose you."

WIzy didhe?

Sexral reasons, this other deantold me.

Did the head make any aduances to you while you were assistant dean?

No. He took me out to lunch, but everybody went to lunch. I don't hrow how much to reveal in fairness to him. I really liked this dean because he had singled me out and made me assistant dean over rl} *y colleagues who had not quite accepted me or given me credit for what I was doing. I wasn't beingtreated egually, and all of a sudden I was raised up into administration, andthat felt so good. I was goodto him, too. I wouldtravel and bringbooks and gifts back that I thought would be of interest to him. But never did I have any intention of considerioghi* a sexual partner. I feel so good today about something that happened recently endorsing my ability to recognize excellent biologists. You know, we women always were considered not too bright in our field, that was just a given. A couple of years ago, a man was being interviewed for a position in our department, end we all listened to him and we all voted. Only two of us supported him. He went back to Roekefeller, and won the Nobel Prize last year. Today, the Nobelist was announced for neurobiology and neurochemistry. Prior to this time, we were going to set up a big neurobiology unit at the Universilr of California, Berkeley. I thought that sinee Melvin Calvin, who was a Nobelist for photosynthesis, was retiring and he had this big round laboratory building, the Calvin Building, we should take that over fcir neuroscience chemistry, which is really bigwith drugs and dl, and make the University of California the biggest institute for neurochemistry in the world. And hire PauI Greengard, from YaIe, to be the director. I called Paul to ask him if he would be interested if the department invited him, and he said, "Oh, sure." I went back to the head of neurobiolory *'Well, and he said, I don't loeow anything about that kind of administrator," and the subject was dropped just like that. It was announced today that Paul Greengard received the Nobel Prize. We would have had two Nobel Prize winners. I felt it was obvious these two men were

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE .53 GAINING RECOCNITION

qualrty. Why didn't the rest of the faculty?

I'm interested that mea still regard women scientists as beingless coapetent.

I think it's their aggressiveness and gsmpetitive nature, onthe average. Last Sahrrday, I was giving a talk here at the university about my rats and enriched versus impoverished environments. A man asked what happens whenyou add competition as an additional factor. I said our rats alwalrs got along; we didn't consider geynFetition. Foodwas available and there were no females ia the c€e so there was really nothing to compete for. This is part of the experimental condition. He said with retirement we've taken away competition. I was sayingthat men used to die two years after retirement because they didn't have anything challensrngto stimulate the brain. He said they iost the competitive field and that's why they died. I think that's so true in the science field, where you must demonstrate your individual gompetency When I was writin8 somethingfor an encyclopedia recently, I had to call BilI Greenough- -he's the big name in this field today because he has done a great ded of work *Bil1, in his research institute at the University of Illinois. I said, what do you corsider the two most irnportant things you've done in your life in the field of enrichment?" He said, 'Dendritic growth and synaptic change." Those were two histological thiogs that were done in our lab back in the '5os, but he repeated them and did them quite well because he could *Dendritic benefit from our mistakes, but we did them first. When I wrote my article, I put, branching came out in such and such ayear, followed by Greenough nins years later.- I was very happy to have the endorsement that he thought these measurements were so imfortant after all the work he's done today in molecular biology and enrichment. Menlike Greenoughwould call respected educators and say "*Why didyou report Marian Diamond's work for your book instead of mine?" I would never do something like *Bill, that. The educator lerew I had been ia edueation for decades, and he said, you just heard that teaching about the brain is important now. It's fashionable for mento be out teaching in the schools." I was teaching in the schools for deeades because it was part of my soul as a female. I thinkthat competitive faetor in men is still so strong, and manywomen are rapidly gaining it. M"yb" they really were strong s6mpetitors all along and now can exPress themselves openly. It's sort of scary to watch them driving car€; they doa't drive quite as gently as they used to. You wonder what roles we will be playing in the future.

People have talked about men in science beingaggressive.

We now know from our animal stufies and more recent human studies that the male brain

54,. [dARIAN DTeMOND:AN ORAL HISTORy r-

CAININC RECOCNITION

is lateralized. In other words, the right cerebral cortex is thicker than the left. Their brains are organized for basics. The male role throughout the phylogenetic tree was to find territory, defend territory and fi:ed a female. Those are all very focused functions. Now the territory is the male scientist's research, the territory is their home and countqy. They are system, focused on whatever they do and don't you dare encroach. It's built right into their whereas we females, on the average, are more sharing.'We don't have that laterality or asymmetry, we have similar hemispheres or sJzllmetry, and so our main function, if you in all look at the phylogenetic tree, is to bear the young, protect them and be ready to go directions to raise them safe1Y.

Male aggressiveness aad competitiveness would explain why men would be competitive, but what makes male scientists feel that women are less capahlef I was, to my Because they just didn't understand us. I don't know what Krech thought Put me name in parentheses. He had to be educated, but he was the best person to speak with we really and support me when I got new data. I spoke at his funeral. His wife knewthat worked well together. He wasn't threatened by me. He had his own security and self- confidence around a female colleague.

v'ould he putyour name inparentheses if he weren't thteatened?

I don't know. There are so many little things that go on in the background of all this work off that you never tell because you know what you want and you don't want to be caught "I guard and going in other directions. People say how did you succeed and I said, kept as they go ,loog, guiet. " I knew what I wanted and I really kept quiet. so many women fight they get ansry and they don't achieve their goals'

Many ofyour female colleagaes have described their battles gettingtenure, hauingto appeal, even hiring attotzeys. For these women keeping quiet wouldn't have worked' 'When I really was blocked from moving professionally I did go to the dean, when my tenure up for was denied, and he overrode the chairman. The next steP in academia was co-ing the advancement - one goes from professor, step r,?,3,4, etc. One of my colleagues on budget committee excused himself when my case came up and I didn't get mypromotion' so somethinghappened. The next year, he was offthe committee and someone else was on, The and they skipped. me a steP to overcome the previous man's denial of my competenry' committee saw I hadn't been promoted the year before, but deserved to be'

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 55 CAINTNC RECOCNITION

Could you have appealed the promotion denial?

I could have, but I was obviouslybusy. Advancement wasn't a number one priority, because once you make professorship, it was only a matter of gettiag more pay the further steps you achieve.

It aust be hurtful for soaeone like you who seeks pez{ection?

Oh, sure it is, but the beauty of the brain is its abilityto subdue devastating situations. At San Quentin, when I told the guard that a prisoner said he didn't kill 1[s person, the guard said, "They all say that. That's how they live with themselves. - I think the same thiag happenedto me, andwhenyou start bringingthe subjectup, I realize how much I was hurt, but I had been able to subdue it. I didn't forget, the memory is defiaitelythere. I reme'r'her clearlywhen he blocked my step increase, but the mere fact that next time I jumped over a step and got right back where I should have been proved that others saw my situation differently than he did. Maybe if I'd had all "bad gu)rs," I wouldn't be so cheerful about it, *nice but there are guys" too.

You have beea so productive and excelled in so maay areas. It seems it would have been hard to overlookyour achievements and all the workyou do.

We did work terribly hard. One woman in Bill Greenough's lab, when she saw Enriching HerediErsaid she couldn't believe that our lab had done so much work in this field. Only somebody who works in the field heows how much work it is to do these experiments, aIrd that's why not many people do them.

You said that while you were working so hard, you didn't have a social life outside the lab other thaa entertainingyour husband's colleagues.

Occasionally a colleague would come and saylet's playtennis. When Roger'Walsh came from Australia, he couldn't believe that a1l of America wasn't involved in enrichment because he had read our articles and he had started his enrichment studies inAustralia. He had his PaPers coming out from his point of view, supporting ourwork. The brain chaages with environmental input definitelywere there, each had to report his/her point of view. He was a good colleague whom I enjoyed t:lkingto about the field. He was supportive.

Were there otherwomen scientists or otherwomen colleagues on the campus with whom you were friendly?

To showyou where we were coming from, Benjamin Franldin had a forum of twelve leading

S5 " ]y{ARTAN DleMoND:AN oRAL HISToRy CAININC RECOCNITION

statesmen like himself that met a couple times in the spring and a couple times in the fall, so I set up a Ben's Fonrm of senior faculty women. I didn't have the identity of being a "woman" scientist so it was "Ben's' Forum. Bobbie Barton, a professor of law, belonged, and Elizabeth Scott, who was professor of astronomy belonged, and Susan Irvin Tripp, who was in rhetoric belonged, and Josephine Miles, the poet belonged. I had tvvelve women and we would sit around the table in the faculty club and tell each other what we were doing that was new and different. When two of them, Elizabeth Scott and Josephine Miles, died I felt so bad I didn't keep the group together. I had such respect forthem; I didn't replace them.

That was while you were a seniorprofessor. What happeaed inyouryoungeryears?

I was just so busy, I didn't do muchwith otherwomen. I was busywith mywork and my family. My one sister-i:e-1aw and I spent a good deal of time togetherwith our children, her three and myfour.

I was thinkingin the realm ofprofessional support.

I didn't know women in my field of research. I'm sure that if I had wanted to contact other women I could have. When I needed letters of recommendation reeentlywhen somebody wanted me to get some honor, I thought whom in the world would I ash so I asked Carol Christ whom I knew, and I asked Bobbie Barton. They evidentlywrote very supportive letters for the AAIIW (American Association of University Women) because I was granted the honor of beingthe seniorwoman scholar intheir organization.

Didyou have anybodyto talk to?

The women technicians and graduate students I worked with. We were aII together in our research, but none of the technicians looked at the literature. As I kept telling Dick, one technician never went to the library to read about what was happening. The tech.icians did their routine work and went home, so you couldn't really advance too far that way. But if I *Ruth, said, we have males and females here and I want to see how they look d.ifferently when the data are separated. Let's look at them, Iet's }ook at the right and left hemispheres separately." She was smart enough to }r:ow these were important considerations. One of the nieest things one of the technieian ever said to me was, " Marian, they were all your ideas. " Boy, did that make me feel good! That technicianwas a competent womanwho went to Iaw schooi while she was working as a technician. She wanted to get out of biology and be a lawyer, so she went to law school at night, and she passed the bar the first time. The women I worked withwere highty intelligent, ethical, honest, bright, loyal and fun. We'd take turns bakingthe cakes and bringingthem in.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE .57 GAINING RECOGNITION

How did the other scientists on caapus uiewyour lab ?

I don't thinlthey even hrew or cared about it. Theyworried more about their own research arrd the other maLes they were cornpetingwith. They didn't think of our lab as competition because we were doing research that nobody else was doing, or thought about doing.

I would think they were doiag things they felt no oae else was doing. IsnT rtat the nature of the lab?

Right. We eachhave ourteritory.

,4reyou tenitorial?

Onlywhen Greenoughwould do thir:gs thatwe'd already done and he wouldn't report our work. That always hurt. He's nowthe big cheese inAmerica in enrichrnent.

Wyis Greenough the 'bigcheese" in earichaent whenyou had done the workfirst?

Because he had continued to work productively in enrichment. We went to other topics. The newpublicationthat just came out showingnew cells are forrred inthe hippocampus, we had pullished the same data as an abstract in 1989, but we neverwrote it up for full pu-blication. One of my students, Alison, got married and guickly had two ehildren and she *How didn't have time to write up the work. She wrote me and said, inthe world didyou 'What ever keep up your work and have children? " was a rewarfing aspect of this work was when the news came es1 ef $elk Institute, the science editor for the San Francisco Chronicle, David Perlman, said, "Marian, didn'tyour lab do that work a longtime ago?' When he wrote the article in the Chronicle, he said this was first done at UC Berkeley and then followed up by work at the Salk. It was Fred Gage from the Salk Institute who published his work and made headlines all over the world.

5B . MARTAN DreMoND:AN oRAL HrsroRy AceoEMrA, CREDTT AND CoNFRoNTATIoN

In addition to your research, you have been aclaowledged as an outstanding teacher, for o which you've won many awards.' Wat is it ab out your tea ching that wins you these awards ?

I think because I trrly care about the students. Teaching is not tangential to my research. I feel each student deserves to be treated as an individual and I feel that it's part of my role here at the universityto be a eonscientious teacher. Teaching, research, community services are whatyou get recognized for.

In that order?

No, at the university it's research first, then teaching. They'd never hire anyone at the university just as a professor.

Wat else aboutyou madeyou an excellent teacher?

I think I inherited my father's ability to public speak. When I was in high school, I was supporting somebody rvnning for student body govemment and I spoke before the whole body of students. As soon as I got back to my classroom I got a call from the debate coach asking me to joia the debate team. I had no desire to be on the debate team. Speaking was a tool for public service, but it had to come through teaching rather than debating.

When you were zmz undergraduate, did you think teaching would be your main occupation?

No. It was onlywhen i first taught that I realized that sharingknowledge was so satisfying. Many of the men who quit their administrative positions say they are going back to teaching, and what they do is go right on to another administrative position. Most men like teaching and are good at it, but they don't really have a passion for it.

Do you personally teach all your classes ?

Yes, fifteenweeks, times three is forry-five, minus two for exams eguals forty-three lectures in the fall semester, and twenty- eight lectures in the spring, except if I'm going to be away.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE .59 ACADE M IA

This semester, I'm goingto be away. One leave is plenned forwhen I'm givingan exam, and the other is when I'm goingto a neuroscience meetiog. My gtaduate students love to have me out of town so they can lecture in my courses.

Doyou plaa different lectures eachyear or do you use the saae one and eabellish it?

You have to give the same lectures, with e'nhellishments, in anatomy. Atibia is a tibia, but you learn new things. For examFle, somebody has figured out for weight lifters how much weight that tibia caa really support. I add these interesting facts to my lectures.

It makes you an interesting teacher.

I hope so. I got a beautiful e-mail today from a woman in London who said I had influenced her life so she's going to dedicate her book to me. That was very nice. She was a student at Berkeleywhen I was inthe dean's office and I was t$ngto give her advice about dorng something significant in this world. She didn't finish her degree here, but she's finishing it in London now and she has two jobs available for her in England if she wants them when she finishes.

Wat isyour classroom style?

To be very organized. I put an outline on the board so the students know where I begin and where I hope to finish, and I put new words on the board that I'll be using in my lecture. I had an argument with my husband because he says everybody has gone to power point and he should also. I want to staywith chalk. It fits my style because I want to go slow enough so students can thinkwhile I'm teaching. With power point, the lecture goes so fast with the slides printed ahead of time. Vhy not stay home and read a book. If you write the material on the board the students have to copy it; thel stimulate their kinesthetic sense; they see the Process making connections. They have time to think about it. Their association cortex is going to be picking up what I'm saylng. Otherwise, it's just primry cortex aad there's no time for protein synthesis. By the time they leave class, they have heard everythiag six times aad theyhave written it. I use this method with all my classes, undergraduate and graduate.

You're a nurturer.

Yes, and I think it's in the genes. I watch my soa with his son and he's so good at teaehing that child.

5o MaRIAN DlaMoND:AN oRAL HISToRy ACAD E M IA

How did you socialize your children ?

We traveled with them; we took them everywhere. They got to see the world. They tell their significant others that all the snf gftxining we did really i",pressed them as they try to fit that role into their lives. Every Saturday night, we would either entertain at home or go out. I had to do all the shopping all the cooki.B on Saturday, and all the cleaniag-up on Sunday.

How didyour son learn to be such a louing father? *Now I think genetics plays a role, and I think he received such love. I said, you krow what it's like that I care so much about you." He agreed.

You have so ruany strtdents. How can you possibly see them, or do they come to seeyou ?

They come in for office hours, those that want to. I find that some of the students are not really serious students. Today, two girls came up to me after my lecture and asked me what kind of exam I was gr-iog. I said, "I'm sorry, I never talk about what kind because five years from now what's important is whether you hrow that these are the carotid arteries and the 0/o internal carotid artery supplies 75 of the blood to your brain. That's what I want you to lctow, it doesn't make any difference what kind of exam it is.' They stood there and said, 'WiIl you tell us if it's a multiple choice." I said, "No I wiII not. This is the University of California. You should be learningthe tools that are goingto serve you inyour livelihood, not that you passed a test, which nobodywill care a.bout five years from now." Theywouldn't leave the stage, they just stood there. Some of them are still very, very immature and elementary in their understanding.

Are you considered an easyteacher or a tough teacher?

Tough, but fair. I want to keep our standards. I was 6llcingwith another professorthe other daythat knewthe professors who taught me here at Berkeley. They reallywere good, solid, sound professional people. They really taught us and I try to maintain their standard and the *Let's other professor says he does too. But somebodywill come along and say, take this lab manual," because it's not as thorough as the one we have beenusing. I was asked that subject this year. The man who comes in for summer teaching has a very simple manual that doesn't have histology, which I want, neurohistology plus gross anatomy in my anatomy class. Sure it's tough, but he wanted this other book for his course. My GSI (graduate student instructor) asked if we could use the simpler manual, but I said no, I want the one we designed for our course.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE 5t t

ACAD E M IA

Do students staYinYour classes?

for a tough course' students I would say about ro percent drop out. That's considered good worth it' Theyworked hard and they are say it was the toughest course they ever had, but it's gladthey did.

Teachinghas givenyou a lot of satisfaction'

Ithinkteachinggiveseverybodysatisfactionbecauseyouhavetobepreciseinwhatyou're are so many books gqYning out dorng. You can't be wishy-washy. The problem is that there something different in another book' no\/lr, you may be quoting from one book and then find I found that todaY.

bored with it' There are teachers who have taught for uanyyears who becoae with themselves. Th"y don t have the That,s true, but they are bored with t}eir own lives and lives' initiative, and possibly energy, to get something new into their

on enrichment in'4merica' Does You have described Greenough beingthe foremost expert it rankleyou that Greenough is considered the giaat in enrichment research? on all our original No, because I wrote Enriching Heredity.Ihave this book reporting Hobson came to me to research, and in my heart and soul I know it that exists. Then Jan it's time to get yourwork out to write the second book, The Mag'ic Tree of the Mind. she said a beautifuI book showingthat we the general public. It wasn't I who went to her. She wrote of the Mindhas never had did this work beginning in 1954 until the late r99os. Mrg" Tree abadreview,andforits[rpeofbook-it'snotasexyDanielleSteelekindsf[esk-Iwas' xie xide, in china' she is a told bythe ed.itors that it has sold beautifully. I sent the bookto whom I met through my political leader and woman physical scientist, a powerful physicist and I enjoyed each first husband. she was the number one woman scientist in china' She to the powers that be' who other and I just sent the book to her as a $ft. She turned it over they plan on ro million babies in had parts of the book translated into Chinese. In China, book for the parents of all the next decade, so publishers would like to abstract much of our Brazil, and Korea is translating these babies. The book has beentranslated in Portuguese, in it now, so it's moving along nicelY'

nwoman scientist'" wouldyou In refeningto your chinese friend, you used the expression *male say a scientist?"

of a man I would say, "He's the I would. There is a picture on the cupboard in my office

5z MentAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY ACADEMIA

numler one rnan scientist onthe Berkeley eampus." He's so nice to me. He received his Nobel Prize and he's still working at the age of 85 - somebody said he should get another 'When Nobel Prize for his latest work. you find a really good person who treats you with respect, I'll do anythingfor such people who are rrice to me. People say, 'You're so crabbyto some of them." \[ell, some of them are so meanto me, I caa't help beingcrabbyto them." Xie Xide is really small, about 4 feet 9 inches and has a brain that just clicks. She is so much 'When fun to be with. She has come into my kitchen and scraped carrots with me. I teII peopie in China that she has been in my kitchen, they are amazed at the mere fact that I lorow her. She was so highly respected in China. She was president of Fudan University, the Iargest university in Shanghai.

Wat wouldyou aduiseyoungwomen todaywho are in the same competitive situatioa asyou are?

Just be honest withyour research and work and keep your own nose to the grindstene so you know what you're doing is as good as you know how to do it. Eventually, somebody else will examine your results and develop a different point of view. If you agree, you will incorporate their opinions into your work, too.

Ifyou had it to do again, wouldyou have published more?

Publish more? No, not necessarily. I published at the rate I wanted to because I was tryrng to juggle so manythings. My goal was not to compete. My goal was to get what I believed was of value. It's just like this recent paper that I'Il be talking about next week at the Society for Neuroscience. Fifteen years ago we published our first paper on the subject of the cerebrd eortex and the immune system. I knew somehow that we were going to bri"g it to fruition eventually. The past year, it has come to fruition and the new results are ready for publication. But I'm not inthis business 1or sempetitive reasons. I'm in it to find out how the brain does work, how we can influence it by altering the environment, and how people can benefit from what we find. So much of research stays on the library shelf and people are pleased when you talk with two or three experts about it. That was never my goal. My goal was to translate what I find out so people can make use of it.

Wenyou look for funding, is there a problem because Greenough is pubtishinghis findings on the same things and he must be getting grants and {unding alsoT

I never ever thought about what he was doing.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE 53 ACAD E M IA

So it wouldn't affect your funding froa the NIH?

No, no, because I stopped askingfor NIH a longtime ago. I went to private funds.

How fortunate thatyou are able to do that. Manypeople have to depend on other ruethods.

There's so manywho want the big institutional setups, and that wasn't my goal. I didn't want the big research institute here. If I did, I'm sure I would have achieved it. But I aehieved what I wanted to achieve in my own little way.

Was there anypressure forthe universityto...

Never, because I was publishing as much as others. People in the science of morphological quantification heow the kind of work we do is extremely tedious and takes au awful long time. Most people don't like to do Erant.t""S anatomical structures. I love it because it's as good today as it was when we did it

You were teaehingat Berkeleyin the sirties when the free-speech movement sturted." Couldyou talk about that?

Yes, that was a very challenging time. You certainly had to hrow what you really believed in. Your role as a teacher was at this great university when you were challenged, why you continued to teaeh when everybody else was on strike. I was also a dean at the same time. I would see the students who had saved every cent and worked so hard to come to this great university and then have their efforts barred and come to a halt for a strike so they couldn't continue and achieve their goals. I felt that they could continue on the side, but my shrdents needed a course. I was goingto be there teaching. The strikers would come in my class and try to disrupt me. I'd say, "I'm sorry. would you please leave?" I gave them the *There same reason. I said, are students here who need to finish and get on with their lives, and therefore I'm here to do what I'm being paid to do.'

Did theyleave?

Yes.

How many ofyour students remained in the class?

I would say I had most of the students inthe class. They remained aad did theirwork.

54 MnnrAN DreMoND:AN oRAL HISToRy ACADEMIA

How maay professors kept their classrooms op en, woul d you say?

I honestly don't heow. The difference in all of this is that I was tryingto juggle my family and my work. I didn't have time to see the bigger picture. I hrew what I had to do and when my child had to go to music lessons in the aftenroon. If somebody else was supporting a strike, I had my responsibilities so I didn't take the time to look at the big picture.

Did you have suppozt from your fellow professors for keepingyour classroom open? I have no idea. I don't knowwhat -

Nobody came to you? Nobody talked about it?

No. Most of the professors were men, so they really weren't that concerned with what I was doing. As I look at the situation, I wasn't a threat to them and they hrew what they had to achieve. I'm sure it would be different today because a womrn has to start as an assistant professor. I started as a lecturer, so I was working at guite a different level. I don't think I could do it that way today because times have changed so much for women.

Wereyou still a lectureria '64?

Yes, I became an assistant professor in 1955.

Wereyou afraid at that time?

No, never, even when there was tear gas. One student had a big rock he was ready to throw in the window up here at California HaIl. When he saw me coming on Campanile Way, he put the rock down, picked it up again, and then he threw it. But no one knew what I was doing because I was just being myself and taking care of my business, which I knew had to be taken care of.

Were you sympathetic to the president, wasn't it Aark Ken at the timelz

I don't think I can comment. Unless i have the facts, I really can't get too involved in university issues. When one has to, I get involved the best I can. Like the [U.S. presidential] elections that are of major concern now, I don't know what all the facts really are so I do not spend time with this domain. In answeringyour question specifically, I've always been sympathetic to Clark Kerr. He's been a fine friend for as long as I've Islown him.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE 65 ACAD E M IA

The free-speech movement at Berkeley was the beginaiag of more speech u.ovea.ents and more liberatioa movemeats.

Oh, tremendously so. After the free speech movement, sttrdents on comrnittees, having students even being listened to as human beings, all that char:ged gempletely, for the better. The free-speech movement really freed us to be a part of the university. I felt the results tremendouslybecause I wanted to talkto professors and they didn't want to waste theirtirire lalLingto me. Some shrdents say it's tnre today. I don't know, because the professors that I deal with in my department seem like very congenial souls. The students often come in to *My this office and say, you're rare. You'll listen to us. You'Il try to help us.' I Lnow the man next door is phenome',eI. He sat ontwenty-six Ph.D. oral exa"'inations, plus all of his teaehing and all of his research. That represents tremendous service to the shrdents.

Doyou mean in ayear's time?

No, in a review block time, which is usually a five-year period. That's still a lot.

There was a pu-blic poII in '54, asking should the studeats have a greater say ia running the colleges. Seven$rpercent of the respondents said no. Watwas happeningin the deanb office during that time ?

I remember once they nailed the door shut.

Who did?

The students. They took a table and used the table and drove the nails through on the table to fasten the doors so the deans had to go out through the window.

They did it whileyou were in the office?

I wasn't there at the time. I was out with a class, but I know the other deans got caught in that situation because we remem-bered seeing the holes in the table when we came back into the office.

What did theywant changed in the dean's office?

I don't know. I think it was just parental objection. Theywere just fighting.

Theywanted action.

Theywanted to be part of the academic action.

65 . MARIAN DieMoND:AN oRAL HISToRy ACAD E M IA

,4mongthe thiry't theyasked forwas fewerfunds and feweractiuitiesgoingtoward contract research at tb,at time. Was it at that time, after ry54 aad into the seventies whenyour colleagues, aadyou I guess, statted agitatingto open up the Men's Faculty CIub to women/3

Let's see. I was on the board of the'Women's Faeulty Club in the sixties and was vice- president when we decided to bring both clubs together because the women's club was in the black and the menos club was in the red. I guess they thought it would be a good idea for us to join forces so they could lear:e how we were keeping a healthy budget. We had lots of meetirgs. We were goingto use the senior menos hall as sort of the hospitdity center betweenthe two clubs and the socid unit, and thenwe'd have the two separate clubs on each side. This issue was being tdked alout for a while. Then the men decided they didn't want this arrangement. Then we t:lked for a long time on just getting rid of the names Men's and 'W'omen's Faculty Clubs, and after much talk, the mea's club came up with the nade "The Faculty Club," to distinguish it from the'Women's Faculty Club, and these names hold today. We used to kid, "At least they eould be called the 'East Faculty Club' and the 'West Faculty Club," but no, The Faculty Club versus the W'omen's Faculty Club. I don't lo.ow any other institution that has two separate faculty clubs in today's climate, except Berkeley, a place one might least expect it.

Doyou still have two?

We still have two. But I went on to become vice-president of the men's club, too, so I sat on their board for twenty years or so and helped them refurnish the place and make it look more humane because there were no ta-blecloths, there were no rugs on the floor. I said, "'We have to have white ceilings, this place is too dark and dinry." They said, 'You can't do it. This is a Maybeck.' I said, "Give me one room to try," so they gave me the Board of Direetor's room. Itwas a room a little biggerthanthis office. We hadthe ceilingpainted white, and it looked great. So the board said, 'You can do the ceilinginthe Helmes Room, thenyou can do the Kerr Room,- so now they all have white eeilings. But it was a fight, and it was a fight to get women to be allowed to come to their Christmas party. OnIy men.had previously attended. We voted forwomento be invited, and thenwe said, "We should have the Christmas party more than one night because there are lots of people who would like to *Oh, come." no, it's onlytraditionally been one night," was the men's reply. It's now four nights. Just awakenings, just awakenings to new directions.

What happ ens during the four nights ?

It's a wonderful Christmas pageant and congenial evenings of music and friendly

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE 67 ACAD E M IA

conversations. Two professors, usuallythe law professors, wrote the skits, lelcing some theme, either national or univerrsifr based, that was popular at the time. I remem-ber the skit *Rosemary's on Watergate with Reach." The professors wrote the songs, the skits and everythiag, and lots of us participated. I mean it was a chance for us on the stage. We were all on the stage singing aad dressed up festively. AII the guests join in the singing and the boar's head is brought out on a tray and paraded around the great t',all. Many of the faculty are dressed up like monks, and they sing the carols. The great hall is a unigue place at Christmastime. I can't imagine any place in the world that looks like the great hell at Christmas at Berkeley.

Wat was it like before the Faculty Club was open to women? Were you ever allowed to go in it?

*What Inthe late r95os I once ceme in the front door, and one professor said, :rre you doing *Well, here? " I said, I'm told that I can go to my meeting through the front door. " So I did, because there are many meetings held at that club. But I couldn t go into the great haII. The great hell vas just off to the side as you walked by. Now, of course, all rooms are open to everybody, but there was a time.... Barbie Barton told me that Barbara An:rstrong, who was professor of law here, said that back in the r 9?os, if there was a meeting at the Men's Faculty Club, she would come in through the window. She wasn't allowed to come in the door. We could imagine that scene with all those skirts coming in through the window. How demeaning!

Were women allowed to eat in the Faculty Club diningroom?

I don't know anything about the eating at that time. Bythe time I came, the policywas really much looser. I mean the mere fact that I was elected to the board. I think there had been one ortwo women before me who served onthe board. So the polieywas looseningup.

Women were thrown out of the diningroom as late as the late t95os, is that right?

Out ofthe great hall, yes.

So it must not have opened until probably the early seventies. Before that time, aone ofyou were allowed to go there. Didn't theyhave meeiings there? Couldyou go in forthe meetings?

You could go in forthe meetings, right.

5B . fu{ARTAN DleMoND:AN oRAL HrsroRy ACADEMIA

There is aa oral history in the Bancroft Libnty about the struggle to open the Mea's Faculty Clu-b to women aad how incensed some ofyour colleagaes were about not being fulI participants ia the universitJr, which is understaadable. Is there another club ealled The Colden Bear?

Yes. It's The Order of the Golden Bear. You're invited to join if you have performed senrice for the university in one way or another. I reme-her when I first was invited, the dean of women recommended that I become a member. The order has monthly meetings where they discuss major issues that are related to crlnpus activities. I went to a few of them, but, again, those are in the evening and I went home and fixed dinner and took care of family chores.

That was probably in the seventies that you were inuited to come ia, beeause it was closed to women before the seventies.

Yes. I don't rememherthose dates well because things moved fast and I had my job and familyto care for.

A LEADER IN THE FI ELD OF SCIENCE o 69 ACAD E M IA

Zo. MARIAN DleMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY CHorcES AND Tneor - oFFS BnpoRE THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT

The womea's movea.ent started, essentially in the late sirties. V.hat do you remeit-ber a-bout that?

I didn't have time to participate, but I do rememler that I wanted to get the women's faculty into my Ben's Forum so at least the women who were professors could get together and telk and have some conge"i"Irty away from the office. I felt it was more important to show that a woman could do the academic jobs than to go out ,Ird g6mplain that she wasn't gettrrg a chance to do it. That's sort of the way I analped the situation. One could serve as a role *I model if you succeeded. As I mentioned, times were really difficult occasionally. I said, don't think I cantake this anylonger," and mytechnicians wor:Id say, 'You have to because you've got to serve as a role model to show the next generation that it can be done." So you shifted gears and returned to work.

You m.ean if one door was closed to you, Jirou would try another door?

Try something else, sure.

Do you have examples you could think o!?

I can vagrrely recall one. I don't h:ow why I went to him, but I went to a law professor on an academic senate committee to ask for something, and he told me I was over the hill. I think I was forty-one. I just sort of looked at him and I said, 'You don't knowthe fire that's going on inside." Then I went someplace else and got what I wanted. But that's what I was told. As a matter of fact, I was told again when I was in the dean's office that I was over the hill by a physics professor. I can see how suchtreatment would really crush a womanwho was only career-oriented. I think that's the difference with me because I knew my family came first. But if I had put all of my eggs in one basket to achieve an acader"ic career, these things could have really broken my spirit when they occurred. Or they could have made me angry and feistyand obnoxious. Whenpeople asked me, "How didyou make it inthose difficult times," I said, "I kept guiet and just did mywork." That's true.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE .7I CHOICES AND TRADE.OFFS

What didyou do withyour anger, becauseyou aust have been angry? I obviouslyvented it at home because mylittle daughter said, 'Mom, whenyou wou1d. come home and share what was happening at school, we felt so badly because we didn't know what to do about it." I didn't leara how the children felt until decades later. I just had to vent, and theywere the only oaes at home.

How didyou handle aatemifirleaue before the pregzaney discriaination act in t978/a

I just Ieft and took leave. In fact, I don't even remet 'ber how I did achieve my maternity leaves. I oftenwonder. I hrow I reeeived no salary. I did retunrtoworkhalf time. Once I had a six-month leave when Dick came home and said he was goingto Australia to work at the Australia National University Department of Physics. The director, John Newton, was *Great, his best friend. I said, what am I goingto do?" That's when I got my'World Health Organization funding and went to Canberra, Australia, and set up my school health projects. I kept up with the work in my lab here at Berkeley by correspondence. I remem.ber returning and finding out I had a lot of catchingup to do. Whether I just went to the chairman and said, "I want to stop salary for six months,' and then left, I don't remember.

lVhat did that mean toyour research then? Wasn't that in the mid-seveaties?

The mid-seventies. what I did then, I had a good team of technicians, and. we communicated. I found lots of those letters recently. They'd say, "We're havingtrouble here-" We didn't have e-mail then. Imagine what you could have done with e-mail. But we had so manyprojects goingthat some would be movingforwardwhile some could stop. The technicians needed advice on this one, so I'd write guickly and give them advice. They stayed with me the whole time, so they obviously carried through and kept the projects moving- I planned the experiments, helped get them all set up, aad then there's so much routine to histologieal and anatomical guantificationthat the teehuicians cantake over once you lay out the procedures

How much time did you have to prepare for this transition to Australia?

I don't remember. You just did it.

Wouldyou have dropped everythingif the universityrhad said, "WeIl, that's it, we're taking this all away from you " 7 What woul d you have d one ?

I don't know. I faced steps each one at a time when I had to make those kind of decisions. No, I knew I had a good group working. The same thing happened when I went up to direct

72 MaRTAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HrsroRy CHOICES AND TRADE-OFFS

the Lawrence Hall of Science. I knew I had the lab under control. Everybody had his own project progressing smoothly. I came dowa from 1[s hall and spent one day a week with the students and the technieians, and found out that theywere doingwell. They knew I was close by if they needed me, but their procedures were all surgical and they have to run the tissues through various solutions, all fairly routine work.

How did that affectyour salary and your status at Berkeley? One of the rcasons given for women aot gettinga comparable salarywas that theyweren't goingto stay, that theywere dependent oa their spouseE, that theywould pick up and leave if their spouses were to go somewhere else.

Right. That's the waythings happened. I mean at Coneell when I was teachingthere, or even working at Harvard, Dick received the appointment at Cornell and I was just getting started at Hanrard. You followed your husband because this was most important. You had a little baby and you wanted your family, so you stopped everything. I told you how it was a fluke at Cornell for me, just hanging around the lab so when it opened up, I happened by chance to bethere.Ihadfouryearsofworkandtheypaidme. Ifiguredaslongaslhadmoaeytopay my babysitters, that's really what I needed to contfiute to the upkeep of the home.

How important wasyour salarTto you?

It was essential to pay for the babysitter. I wasn't striving to make lots of money, because it never was my goal. I was forfunate in having a very nice childhood, so I didn't see that happiness came from having money because we had enough. I know I was privileged in what I had from my childhood.

How did your salary compare to your husband's?

Oh, there was no comparison. He was always way above me, but I wasn't gorngto fight for a salary. i wantedthe work done, the opporlunityto satisfymy scientific curiosity, and I wanted to be accomplished. I wanted to be a good teacher and having the pleasure of reafing the reports saying that I was teaching well and doing research that was becoming newsworthy. I was determined not to get bitter and I wasn't goingto waste mytime fighting. Those are two things I was sure of.

Did you and your husband pool your salaries ?

No, always kept them separate. My mother told me to.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 73 CHOICES AND TRADE - OFFS

I recall that was for inheritance putposes. Did he take care of the household expeases?

Yes. Gave me a checkto buythe groceries.

Did woaea complain or did they talk about salaty issues at that time in the sixties? Theymayhave, but I wasn't involved. I reallywasn't.

How about when you aet in your Ben's Forum?

My Ben's Forum? No, we talked about the research we were doing and the workwe were doing, because that's what we were really here for. That was the foundation of Ben's Forum, to find out what Elizabeth Scott (professor of statistics) was learaing in astronomy - I think she was fascinating, what Josephine Miles was doirg with poetry and Bobbie Barton in law. We were interested in being creative, but nobody ever spent 1i*s gemFlaioiog.

Yet those women, Elizabeth Scott's name I remember, and Susaa Tripp, were incensed ahout the salary issue.

Theywere. Theywere good about t"king strides to iynFrove it. I respected them lop deing it. I always read their reports that we were getting such a low sdary, but I didn't ju'"F into the fray because I still believe that if you show that you can do the work in spite of the salary, that's what really eounted.

Aad you were doing iapofiant work - I thought so.

Wenyoule{t Berkeleyto go toAustralia, what did otherpeople say?

I don't think arryone said anything. They didn't hrow what I was doing. I just felt you did yourwork, nobodysawyou, nobodyheardyou, exceptwhenresults cane out. Others weren't really involved.

Didn? somebodyhave to take overyour classroom work?

Yes. I'm trying to think of who did that in those days. I just remembered the times that I went to India. I was going to be gone for two wee}:s, so that meant six lectures in the middle of fall. There was a post-doe who was a dear man, and he loved to teach. He was so happy I was leaving, could he please take those six lectures. Yes, yes, yes. Sure. But maybe I wasn't even in charge of a course when we went to Australia. But that was the late seventies, I had

74 MenrAN DleMoND:AN oRAL HisroRy CHOICES AND TRADE-OFFS

to have my own courses. I had Larry Elson come in to teach once, and he said it was the hardest job he had ever done. He was a former student in the department and had his Ph.D. He wanted to come and give my lectures. But he let me know how hard work it was when you ask somebody else to come in and do it on a regular basis. Teaching is hard and it's demandi.g. Students thinlyou just stand up there and talk. You really have to prepare lectures and incorporate what's new, interweave what you can, then learn it all and then present everything elearly and methodically.

Wat wereyou doiagwhileyou were inAustralia?

I was settingup school health programs. I first went to the local college in Canberra, in between high school and the major university. They have an interim degree sort of like our community colleges. I forget what they call them now, but I thought I could get students there to help teach in the public schools iike I had with my program in Berkeley. I went to see the directors of these schools lelk to them. lurstralia wasn't erperimentally "1d oriented at all. The director said no, so I decided I would go into the schools myself. I would go and get hearts and kidneys and lungs to use to teachthe child3s.. In Kum.ba Elementary School, the principal said I could come and teach his students about the body and how it works. Some of the Parents objected. They didn't want this American womxn geming in and *W'ell, teachingtheir kids. I said, let me give them a class first, see if theylike it." I didn't just give them a lecture on the body, I brought all my hearts and kidneys and lungs. At the *We end, they said, want a class like that. Canyou give us such a class?'

Oh, so they came to your class ?

They came to my class and they approved that I teach the children. Then the word got out 'When and I was going all over Canberra. I came back to Canberra for six weeks at a later date with the program, I had my fellowship from the World Health Organization that really was Pa)4ng me. The authorities sent a car for me eve{y morningto take me to whatever school I wantedto go. Before, I was driving my own car. One morning, there was guite an elegant car waitinginfront of the house. I had always had a driverwho drove me. I said, "Whythe elegant cartoday?" when I got inthe back seat. He said, "Well, we didn't have any others, so this is the Prime Minister's wife's car." So I got driven in that car to take all my organs to the schools. The driver thought it was so fun:ry because he was carrying my models and sometimes an organ would drop. He said, "Oh, if the rest of the fellows could see, because we're used to cary"ing the Prime Minister's wife in this car, and here you are with all your organs." I just loved it. He had to laugh.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 75 CHOICES AND TRADE. OFFS

Were all ofyour childrea inAustralia withyou?

No, only two, Jeff and Ann. Rick was at Harvard, and Catherine was already in Taiwan.

Your children were older by 'ZS, of course. They were gro*iry up, weren't they?

Right. Jeff went to the uaiversity, and Ann went to grade school.

So you were always loeating a way to be meaningfully occupied.

Very definitely, yes. Jls lssghing genes are strong, and when you have a vnission- and I *health thiDk I have some genes', because as I look back at my fath.er, he wanted to be doing the same thiog. He was invited to the Vhite House in 1933 for a children's health sy:eposium. After he had died, I found the card that had invited him, so it seems to be in our genes for health and for teaching. Vhatever anybody says, it seems to be there. You thinkyou are a unique individual developingyour own path, but those "sleeping genes' are awakened under the appropriate environmental conditions.

was your project somethingyou thought of doing before you went to Australia?

I lmow I didn't want to go to a foreign country and work in a lab, beeause I wanted to lorow the people and their country. The best way for me was to set up school health, so I eventually went to Canberra, Melbourne, Ade1aide, clear across to Perth onthe far side of the continent, and gave lectures. Everybodywelcomed me. It was just amazing. I was invited to speakwherever I went.

Didyou howitwas goingto be a six-moath tem? It wasn't open-ended; it was closed?

Yes, right, it was a closed six months, beeause that was as long as Dick had his official leave.

Thenyou came backto Berkeleyand didyou just resumeyour duties?

I must have. I rememher it was difficult returningto the foeused, demandingwork of teaching and doing research at the University of California, Berkeley level.

What events caused the biggest chaages inyourlife orinyour career direction? Let's start withyourlife, whatwere the biggest events that caused a change inyourlife?

Each one of them. Getting my Ph.D., having my first baby, these were great milestones.

76 - MARTAN DraMoND:AN oRAL HrsroRy CHOICES AND TRADE-OFFS

'When I held my first baby, I hrew why I existed. Up until then I had no idea. It was just what mybrain sort of turned on for existence, but that was so natural to hold my own child, it was heaven. That was beautiful, I loved that little one. I still do, all of them, they're so original, bright, nice and creative. Obviously, having children is a major rnilestone. Being asked to teach at Cornell, because there were other people he could have asked. Choosing me meant he respected me professionally. Getting my tenure here at UCB, that surely was a big step. Then, obviouslp the discoveries in the lab, showing the cerebral eortex could change with experience, from a structurd point of view; showing that there were sex differences in the cerebral cortex, that was a big one. Boy, I loved that discovery. I really felt like a significant womrn afterthat. People don't believe why I saythat, whythat made such a difference. I didn't thinkthat the men reallyunderstood what I had to do to make science sigaificant for me. Now, I recog:rized, '"Why should they?" They had a different structured brain, which produced different goals, a different emphasis, but you survived in their world. These were things that were terribly meaningful. When I came backto Berkeleyfrom CorneII, I didn't have a job. I tried just finding one on my own. I made manyunsuccessful attempts until I received a cdl from UC San Francisco asking if I wanted to teach the pharmacy shrdents, and I said, "I'll be there." I thinkthat is one of the greatest lessons, because my oldest brotherwho was exceedingly bright would never take a job that he thought was beneath his talents. I thought, I'm going to take anything that comes along and work my way up. I see the women now who are a little younger than I who quit beeause the breaks didn't come along favorably. They didn't hang in there, they gave up. Vhy didn't they continue? They thought they were too good for the job. They're quite disappointed decades later that they didn't continue. Boy, you learn to stay with the job even when it's tough.

That's a good lesson.

It is, because everybody has tough erperiences, one way or another. Don't quit and feel sorqF, because in ten or fifteen years you'll say, "WbIl, I could have done that." Sure, you could have, but you should have shifted gears and said it's not goingto be easy, but I will do it anyway.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 77 28. MARIAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HISToRy CUALLENGES oF LUADERSHIP

You took on a new job ia the nineties.

Yes, in r99o I took on the directorship of the L,awrence Hall of Science.

How did that come about?

I was asked once before to put my hat in the pool for the directorship. The main job they needed at the time was for somebodywho could raise money. There was one professor on campus that had tremendous amounts of money because his father had owned a big comPany in the U.S. When it came time to choose, the administrator chose him, even though I knew he wasn't reputed to be good at administration. This one hurt me, and it really hurt. So when I was asked Iater if I'd take it, I really had to think twice because I had been hurt once. Did I really want to go in there and take on a job where I had to raise money and work hard in this role?

Howdidyourname come up the second time?

I have no idea. I got a call from the chancellor's office, would I take it? I aceepted for several r€ssorrs: I really wanted to play a role in ehildren's education and make that my big enrichrnent eaBe up there at the Lawrence Hall of Science, because we }rrew their little brains were changing and they needed something of value to enrich their environvnents. The other reasonwas to challenge my owrr potential. Cou1d I handle the directorchiF, plus handling my academic role on campus? We don't lcrow the potential of the hu-an brain. We 'We really don't. I thinkwe sometimes live like lizards. go ahead and do the things we have to do, but we don't really extend ourselves. I decided that would be a challenge to take the directorship. It was tough, and I learned a lot, and I did a lot. I made some wonderful friends, both there and in the community and knew that I didn't want to be a museum director beyond my five -year term.

Is the Lawrence Hall of Scienee a science museum for children?

Right. It's really a science center. The staffproduees publications for a quarter of the

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 79 CHALLENCES OF LEADERSHIP

elementaryschools inAmerica, science teachers' guides, the GEMS (Great Explorations in Math and Science) guides. They design and produce all sorts of programs that are in most schools inAmerica, the SEAPUP (Science Education and hrllie Understanding) and the FOSS (Full Options Science Systems). These are tremendous programs that are well endowed and weII established and working all over the country. Some ?o,ooo teachers come to the hall eachyear for classroom instructioa in scieace.

Was it a prototype for scieaee museuas?

I believe it was. lawrence HalI of Science was developed in 1968 as sort of a physics museum in memory of the Nobelist Ernst Lawrence. When I firstwent there with my own shilfl3sn, it was all physics. Biolory and preschool education programs were brought in later and the emphasis changed completely overthe years

You were still doingreseareh, you were still teachiag, aad thenyou took on this enom.ous responsibility.

Right, and I felt it. I really didn't knovr whether the top of my head was going to blow off or *Well, not. I just kept sa.png, I've got to keep trying," and I did. I made it work, because Glet'', Seaborg, the chairman, offered me a second five years. They actually appointed me for a second five years, but I said, 'No, thankyou." I wanted to come down en gr-pus and get more involved in our research program on the immune system and the cerebral. cortex.

What was it like at the museum? Did you have problems and/or successes?

The greatest problem was that nobody had really managed the science center for a long time. The prerrious director had done her own work and let everybody sort of do what they wanted. I found there was a lot of mismanagement, a lot of mismanagement of fundi.g going on. I had to fire about six to eight people, but I had to first gather all the ineriminating evidence so I could move legally. It turned out that my majortaskwas to house-clean- or museum-clean. I learned about the University and its system for legal affairs. I was threatened with a lawsuit if I said I'd fire a person because he was so incompetent. I didn't want to spend the rest of my life dsalingwith lawsuits, so I'd come down and talkwith *What campus administrators and say, am I supposed to do?" "WelI, if you think he has to be fired, you have to fire him." I did successfully fire several, and lawsuits were going on when I left. It was un"believable to find such mismanagement. Here at the university, in my department, I do my ownwork and have never been involved in any of these sorts of legal matters.

Bo . MARIAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY CHALLENCES OF LEADERSHIP

How didyou knowthatyou could be an administrator? It's a large museum.

It is a large museum. I had held student body offices and had nrn my lab for decades with no major problems.

Howmanypeople worked atthe hall?

I guess about 38o were there at the time I was there, and that includes all of the part-time students who come up from campus to work there. The budget was $aa million when I went there. It was a big instihrtion, but they had an executive direetor and a treasurer, the usual supportteam.

What was your title?

Director of the Lawrence HalI of Scienee.

Thentheexeeutivedirectorwastheday-to-dayperson. Didyoulikethedirector?

I liked hertremendously, at first. I learned later on there were serious problems.

Did you ever feel there were times when there were ethical problems you faced?

Very much so. Lots of ethical problems, but I stayed true to what I was taught and learned. *exemplary," Later on one of the employees said that my ethics were that was the term she used, and so I felt good that she agreed with my behavior and I fought for what I believed. People got very mad and angry, but I stayed with my principles.

\Yas there a board ofdirectors?

We had many boards, yes. Ve had a management team and directors of acade-ic units. We had. an advisory board for fund-raising. Manywere Seaborg's friends. Seaborgwas co- chairman.

G\enn Seaborg? He was the person with whom your first husband had worked.

Dick took his degree with Seaborg, that's correct, so I }rrew him thirty years before I became direetor. I h:ew the secretary to the director, Pirrkko Main. I'd known her for years, so I felt very comfortable working with her as my secretary. She and I got along beautifully. It was lovelyto go up to the hall andworkwith her.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE 8r CHALLENCES OF LEADERSHIP

You had a fuad-raisingboard?

We had a fund-raisingboardthat didn't do muchfund-raising.

- Wat didyou do forfundi"g?

Most of the fundingwas inthe form of grants. Most were National Science Foundation grants. The university only provides ro pereent of the funding. The rest has to be ear:red, soft money.

If the board was just a fuad - raising board, who was your support?

I was managed or overseen bythe vice-provost, Jud King- all of these things are fading now. I used to report to hirrT 6ngg a week and keep him informed of what we were learning and what we were doing. Jud King is now vice-president of the University. He went from beingvice-provosttovice-president. Forthosewholikeit,administrationisanimportatt progression.

Whenyou discovered unethical actiuities, who couldyou go to for support? {

The university is all set up. I wonder how much of their administration is designed to serve chairmen and directors of IRUs, independent research units, on campus. I realize it's a big business on campus. Whole teams would come up to advise oawhat had to be done and eventuallyyou just signed their reports. Theywork out all of the details - a whole separate profession.

Wereyou concerned at anytime that theywould aot supportyou, orwere theyusually suppottive?

I was supportive of them, and they were supportive of me. These teams came in prepared and I don't thinkwe ever had a tussle. The problems were with the employees who were intermptingthe progress of the programs at the hall.

Whenyou found a problem, you then documented it?

Right, step by step.

Did you get along with the executive director and the development director and aII the prograrn directors?

Prettywell because once I pointed out somethingwas wrong, it was so obvious. But no one

Bz. \dARiAN DtaMoND:AN oRAL HISToRy CHALLENCES OF LEADERSHIP

had attended to the obvious problems. The staff didn't let it bother. Nobody had the courage, I guess, to face up to the mismanagement.

Were didyou get the courage?

I think from dealingwith my father. He was such a strong figure. I mentioned to you, being the youngest of six, I was elected to go talk to him as a little girl. I didn't have any gudms of standingup forwhat I thoughtwas right.

'lV'ere you ever concezned thatyou would have to take a staad where you would have to resign because ofit?

No. I didn't ever feel that.

Why didyou decide to leave?

It was the end of my term, and I knew that I wanted to work on the immune system and cerebral cortex project. My researchwas terribly importaat. AIso, I didn't thinkthat my hedthwould continue the stress of holdingboth jobs adeguately. I was drivi:cgmyself, and I didn't want to work for it fourteen hours a day, seven days a week. I just didn't want to drive myself so hard.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 83 B4 . [dARrAN DtaMoND:AN oRAL HISToRy A C UAI\T GI N G P g RS PE CTIVE

Bythe eightiesyou had divorced andyou were re-mareied?

'We Nineteen seventy-nine is when I met Arne. were married in the early eighties, '8g.

How did he feel about your working seyen dalrs a week, fourteen hours a day?

He was doingthe same thing. He was director of the Brain Research Institute at UCIA so we 'We both had these big tas}s that we were responsible for. both, as soon as we got together, talked about our administrative problems. He was my support, and I was his support.

Itwas foztunate thatyou found somebodyyou loved who was inyourfield.

It was luck and it was chance, as my father would say.

So he was helpful?

He was very helpful. He still is, and very understanding when he feels I'm getting stressed. Very, very understaading. But I try to be the same for him. I c,m saywe both helped each othertremendously. He's had fourhip replacements and a knee replacement. I'm down in southern California with him when he has to have surgery.

He lives in Los,Angeles?

He lives in Encino.

Wat didyou do about stress beforeyou mazried,Arne?

I did a lot of exercise. I played tennis and walked up in the Berkeley hills.

You swam more than a half hour a day.

No, I didn't start swimming until I ripped my shoulder, and then I started swimming again. I used to swim all the time.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 85 A CHANCINC PERSPECTIVE

So you would just deal with stress on your ow:n is what you were salring ?

Yes.

That's hard. Wat would you aduise youag ulomen to do with their stress?

Exercise and Iove their family, friends, colleagues, etc. Our family motto is on ourfamily crest, "Love con![uers all." It is fundamental. If you just turn around and try hard, love gets rid of a lot of stress.

You had so much satisfaction withyour teaching, it seems.

I did, because the positive feedback kept coming. Just the other day, Saturday, we had our little grandson up at the Chabot Seience Center here in the Oakland hills, e''fl rye were *Dr. Iooking at some of the artfu-shaking exhibits. A student wdked up and said, Diar''ond, you were my teacher back in the seventies, and you inspired me to go on and do this and this and this." When you get that kind of feedback. . . . My son-in-law said he was in the wilds of Washington state in the forest once and they were sitting on a rock lsgling with some people who just happenedto be there, and somehowAnn Diamond's rulme came up. Well, the lady on the rock said she only knew one other Diamond and that was at Berkeley. It was her best teacher. You get this kind of feedback eoming from all these directions, you know you're doing somethingthat is right beeause these people benefit fromyourteaching. You've shown them they ean do things themselves, and they are taking advantage of their beowledge.

It sounds likeyou've been a role model for a lot of people.

People do write and teII me. I received a letter from England the other day. The lady said when I was deaaing, I told her she had unusual capabilities. I told her she reallywas bright. She said I was strong and I was firm when I told her and she never forgot it. As soon as she got to a position where she could go back to school - - that's what she was doing in Ergland now, going back to school.

Who wereyour role models?

As I mentioned before, Sir'William Oslerwas. As a little girt, I always had dreams of somebody who was bigger than I.

B5 MaRiAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY A CHANCINC PERSPECTIVE

How about whenyou were at the university?

Miriam $irnpson was a nega.tive role model, because she was the woman professor who gave me such a bad time. I knew I didn't want to be like that, so I brew I wanted to really help students. Find out their good points, and help them. She was negative. I saw that Agnes Fay Morgan had a child and was teaching, so there was one woman who was doing ssroslhing I admired. When I went to see her and asked her how she worked with men, she said, "Men will not understand you until they have daughters your age.-ts

What does that mean?

I think men:rre governed bytheir hormones to practice male behavior, and they don't hrow what women are thir:king and doing until they have their iove for this little daughter that is so precious to them. Then they really coneentrate on learning female behavior.

DonT theyhave wives?

They have wives, but I don't think they really get in gear with them to the degree they do in watchingtheir daughters grow up. They learn how little girls are different and then they have to accept their female behavior.

How did Alice Fay Morgan sueceed as a teaeher and a motherT

I read later that she wasn't a very good mother. She had her mother trkiog care of the child most of the time. I didn't larow that at the time. I just knew she wanted a child and taught, whereas Miriam Simpson didn't want children and didn't have them. She was a good teacher. I never forgot what she taught me because she was so mean. I often ask, 'lMho's the better teacher, the one who's kind or the one who's mean?'

\Wat doyouthink?

I don't Loow. I think it's a tossup as long as the nice ones outnumber the mean ones. Most people prefer the nice one, and so do I, but i still learn a good deal from the mean ones.

I read an atticle about your getting a piece of Eiastein's brain because you persevered.

Yes. Do you want to see it?

I did. It's the screen saver on your computer.

Right, you've seen it there. I was goingto showyou a little slice of Einstein's brain over

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 87 A CHANGINC PERSPECTIVE

there on my book shelf. The way my getting apiece of Einstein's brain came a.bout was because, hrrrirg a female brain, I was readyto go in many direictions, that is, havingthe average female brain- I have to be careful, because there are all lcinfls of us fe'r,ales. We have many things going on at once, so if one thing's not doing too well, we can pick up on the other and not worry. That's exactlywhat happened. I asked Dr. Thomas Harvey for four sugar-cu-be size pieces of Einstein's brain. He said he would send them to me at UCB. They didn't arrive, but I was busywith otherthings, and sort of forgot about it. Thenwhen I had a free moment, beganthlnLingabout it, and decidedto call againto see if he remembered. me, and what I wanted. I kept thinlcing [s's trot going to gve it to me so easilp he's got to figure out who I am first. He &dn't loeow me fromAdam.

*he?" Who is

Thomas Harvey. He was the pathologist with Einstein at the time of his death. It took three years before I got the piece of tissue that I reguested. Four pieces in aII.

Howaanypeople got a section of his brain?

I aetually don't lcrrow.'We were the first to do any guantified scientific study on Einstein's brain. Eveqybody else had looked at the whole brain or specific large areas and said, "Well. Einstein has a caudate nucleus, his hippocampus is present." Nobody tried to guantify and compare with normal brains before. I really, after twenty-five years, brought the subject of his brain out into the open. After that the whole subject erpioded. Nobody had heard of Harvey before. He was i:r Discoverymagazine, he was in Time, he waq in Newsweek It was everywhere that he had Einstein's brain and how did he get it, what was he doingwith it in Missouri, and all of this. I mean the whole weird tale. I just sort of wanted to creep back and forget the whole subject because all I wanted was a little of Einstein's brain to study and report upon, not a whole life science.

Was Dr. Harueygrateful toyou?

I don't think he really knows what to think of me. He came here and sat in that chair after we had comPleted our study and published the report because he wanted to see the tissues for himself. He was satisfied with what he saw. Wb put his name on the paper when we published, and there were four names on the paper.

Wyfour?

Why four? I wanted my husband to publish with me because I lceew nobodywould have

8B MentAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HIsroRy A CHANCING PERSPECTIVE

accePted it if a woman had published by herself on this important subject. I asked one of my graduate students to do the statistics because I didn't want to do the statistics because I didn't want my subconscious to influence anything. So somebody else did the statistics. Then Tho-as Harveywas fourth because he gave me the brain samples.

Wat year did you publish your findings ?

Nineteen eighty-five. I was really silly, too. Being female, I have all these kind of things that I waat to do for societywhile I am doing my science. We possibly eould have published in Science or Nature, which are the big, prestigious joumals, but I wanted the article to appear in Exlterimental Neurologr. Carmen Clemeate was the editor of.the Joumal of F,xlterimental Neurologr, and I wanted to publish in his journal just because I thought it would be good for him, rather than publishing in Scienee or Nature. Scientists may have thought a second-class citizen published in a second-class journal, but I did it for Carmen, thinking it would give his journal prestige.

Did it?

I don't thil* so. I don't know. At least many people have now heard of. Experimeatal Neurologr.

It gave Dr. Haruey prestige.

It sure gave him a wide press. Right.

Wat were your findiags?

The findings that there were more glia cells per neuron, significantly more, in the left inferior parietd cortex. I had predicted that he would have more, but we didn't lsrow where. We studied superior frontal right and left. V'e studied inferior parietal right and left. The left inferior parietal cortex had the significant difference compared with the sez.e area in our general male samples. People didn't lorowwhat glial cells were. I thinkthe study made glial cells a more common term among the more educated lay seientists. At least people have heard of glial cells now. AII those years they had been taught only to medical students throughout the world.

Whatwas the significance of - Having more glial cells in the left inferior parietal cortex? This area supposedly deals with mathematics and higher logical thinking. That's why I took these two areas, frontal and

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE B9 A CHANCI NC PERSPECTIVE

parietal (inferior), because they are two of the most highly evolved parts of the brain. I had been doing a study of nerve-cell aad glial-cell ratios on male braias. That's why I could *nom.al" obtain the tissue, because I had a database. I was doing my own serious shrdp counting neurons and glia in right and left superior frontal and right and left inferior parietal in so-called normal human male brains that we get from the VA. hospital to study in class. I had the database and could compare Einstein's four sa-ples witlthose forty-four samples that I had from that baseline study.

What made you think of asking for a part of his brain, samples of his brain

Students had clipped a picture of a deskwith a cardboard box on it that was printed in Scieace maeazine. The caption stated that Einstein's brain was in that box, which was in Kansas. Students had clipped the picture out of Science and put it on the wall of the lab, so subconsciously I saw it every daywhen I went into the lab. I never paid any attention until one daywhen I had some time by myself, as I did down inArne's office. Arne was busy, everybody was busy, and I was just sitting there thinking, my gosh, I have all these samples. I wonder how Einstein's brain would compare with my samples. I just picked up the phone, got information at the University of IGnsas, and said, "Do you browwho has Einstein's brain?" Theysaid,'Yes, Thomas Hanreyhas it inweston, Missouri." I calledweston, Missouri, got the phone number, and called and asked.

Perseverance.

Perseverance and curiosity. I mean it's just pure curiositythat drives all of this activity. I have to find an answer. Is it worthtrying or not?

go - MARIANT DieUOND:AN ORAL HISTORy CnEDIBILITY AND PoVER

Watmakesyou credible?

I think the fact that we did an experiment very carefully and we replieated it. That was the very first experiment with measuringthe cortical thicL.ess in enriched sl i'"poverished rats. Nobody had measured cortical thickness on rats before for any reason. Find a way to do it and then be able to show very significant differences between the enriched and impoverished animals' brains. Repeat the experiment in another year and show that the first finding was true. W'e published the results, and then years of study followed. We continued to refine the methods, as to what does cortical thiclc"ess mean, what are the 'We nerve and glid cells doi.B. certainly had to count dl those cells. Tedious work for every step of the way, but the process was all very sound and replicable. Nobody else had done it, and not many people want to invest the time, ener5l and perseverance.

Didyou choose that field because nobody else was doingthat aad itwas a niche foryou?

I chose the field strictly out of curiosity. I didn't lorowwhat I would find. I hrewwhat Rosenzweig and Bennett and IGechwere doing, because I had read theirwork, but it tumed out, nobody else was doing any work in that field, they were it. Then the field just blossomed. Many joined the search for various environmental effects on the brain.

You got in it early.

As one lady said, 'You have the sense of picking out what's important." I could redd those journals because I had the time while I was at Corne1l, reading Seiencewhea the kids were sleeping. I read their article aad, boy, the }ight went on. I remember, decades later, the French scientists showed that the left cerebral cortex had something to do with the immune system. Out of dl of those thousaads of abstracts submifted to the /ouraal of Neuroscieace, that was the or:ly paper I wanted to go hear at the neuroscience meetings. I went and I sat in

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE 9t CREDIBILITY AND POITER

the front row and I raised my questions and came back and we started working on the relationship between the cerebral cortex and the immune system.

Was it important to you to project an image of credibility?

I've always wanted to do well in whatever I did.. Whether I did well or not, I always tried hard. I had some very good people to workwith. IGech, Rosenzrreig and Bennett were first- rate psychologists and chemists, and so I was very lucky to eome into their team and be accepted6y them. Workingwith Krec6 was pure pleasure when f was askurg questions a6out the significance of my data. We'd just spread all the data sheets on the table and sit there andtalkabout it forhours. Some of the happiest moments of myprofessional careerwere lalkingwith him about the data that we were producing in our lab and talking about it with him.

So maay womea scientists dress doum or they attempted to be more masculine because they felt that would help them be more credible. How did you haadle it?

I justwantedto be myself.

Wat isyourself?

I enjoy pretty clothing, at least in my opinion. I remerrher, as a graduate student I had tno outfits. One was blue and one was brown. I wanted the blue shoes to go with the blue one. I wanted the brown shoes to go with the brown. I just liked thiags that matched as far as clothingwent.

You're so feminine now and obuiouslyyou've always been. You dress beautifuIlyaadyou wearmakeup.

You see all these women inthe magazines that look so nice. They dress beautifully and have makeup, and why shouldn't one want to look nice, too? I see the women on television that all looked nice, and then I see the other women who don't wear makeup or care about their appearance, and I say, "WeIl, my, they look much better than these, in my opinion. So I'd like to look better."

In the realm of science where you need to have credibility and we've talked before about male scientists thiaking of women as not really a scientist, you were able to be credible aad feminine.

I've had excellent women technicians. I've had both wonderful female and male students. I

92 - MARIAN DteMOND:AN ORAL HISTORY CREDIBILITY AND PO\TER

was just back at Harvard to grve a lecture, and many form.er sfirdents cane to hear it. They're still there, and came out to be with me again. Our lab didn't fight. Well, I guess we must have had some problems. Some students didn't get along, and they left. Those who stayed 'We became life-long friends. still meet and have dinnsl f6gsfher every other month. The women were bright and friendly, and we had a good time working together aad pr6duciug exciting results.

How would you defiae power?

Power is, I think, vranfin8 to control people, places and things. I don't thirk that has been my role. I didn t want power; I wanted cooperationwith people. I used to tell my staff at the Lawrence HaIl of Science that the mission at the hall was bigger than any of us and to keep that in mind; the education of young minds was our goal. I don't think people felt powerful. I felt good gemingto work at LHS as I walked across tLe large plaza knowingthat I was director of this opansive educational unit of about 38o people and a $aa million budget. I felt good inside when I thought backwhen I was a little girl, sitting and dreaming about what I wanted to do in my life. I don't thinl< being a director of a science center was part of a dleam, but it was part of the whole University of California dream. Inthat way, I thought small. Mythoughts were always around achieviag at this great universifr, not politically, not nationally. People say, weII, why didn't you want gover:rment positions? I never thought in those firections.

Wynot?

The actual science was not there. The curiosity of doingthings can be in administration, but the actual science is what gives me the most pleasure. I wanted to be where the actionwas in the lab and in the classroom. I think that's what you have, what a university offers me; the freedom to express my needs and wants.

Aad to have them answered?

And have them answered, right. That's the greatest glory now. To go to this meeting next week, I'm scared sillythat theywill tear me apart. But I feel good inside because I have to do it. I want to be involved.

Is this the neuroscience meeting?

The neuroseience meeting.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE 93 CREDIBILITY AND POVER

What areyou doing at the aeeting?

I'm presentirg my poster. It's about bridge plalang and creating enhaneed CD4 cells, and, most of all, it's different. I wish I could show you a poster, it's so beautifirl.

You did have power at lawrence HaII, obuiously, because you were hiriag and firingpeople.

Oh, yes. There, I was the last say to yes or no.

Watwouldyou sayare some of the risks that come withpower, Ieaderchip?

Getting sued. That happens with my students now who become plastic surgeons. They have to carry such tremendous insurance. Especially plastic surgery, because their patients never are as beautiful as they think they should be. So that's a major problem. There was oue black man who was in charge of a huge program at the Lawrence Hall of Science who just was quite incompetent. I came down to the campus and talked to another black "ran who was in administration at UCB, because I wanted to tell him, "This is what I'm up against at LHS, because this black adrministrator up there says he will sue me if I ask him to leave." I said, "I don't want to spend my life in lawsuits just because I was administrator for five years. .WelL What should I do?" He said, if youthinkhe should be fired, he should be fired." Then I was very fortunate. Somebody else, in the president's office, wanted him and his *This Program. I was perfectly honest. I said, program has many problems, including its director," but this other directorwanted the power overthis LHS program because it was so big. I'm not mentioning names purposely. The other director could include him in his unit. Somehow the director could fire the man without much difficulty because the section in the

president's office was a bigger unit than the hall. So I didn't have to fire the man because . someone else took him off my hands.

What are some of the risks in leadership? You've been a leader cefiainly at the you've been involved in many things ineluding the senate and the Faculty Club and your list is verylong. During my leadership in the Faculty Club, for svxmple - I served on that board for years and years and years - the mznager would report the budget at our meetings. We believed everythingthe manager said. We all approvedthe budget month after month. Pretty soonwe realized that the manager had brought the club to tremendous debt. There one had to learn when to trust someone and not to trust. That was a major problem. There were those Faculty CIub members who supported the dishonest manager. They didn't believe he did

g+. MARIAN DleMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY CREDIBILITY AND POVER

anythingwrong, and there were those of us on the board who hrew that he did. A really painful sihration developed. That was going on at the sarne time I was tryingto handle all of the mismanagement problems at the hal. The university finally paid offthe Faculty Club manager. They found hi- guilf, but they paid him so he wouldn't sue the university. That's what I learned takes place inuniversity xflminisfmfiens.

I guess you leam to be strong in your conuictions.

Yes. I thinkyou learn it from mountain climbing, the determination that you're goingto reach the top of that mountain, as tough as it is. You don't want to stop half way up. You keep goinguntil you get to the top. I thinkthat's a basic philosophy in life. It's not always easy. The path can be terrible. I rememler taking my friends climbing. They didn't want to go all the wayup those old mountains. Theywere readyto go backhalf way.

Where didyou ctiab?

I started in the mountains behind my home beginning at ?,ooo feet rising to 5,ooo feet. Then next, I guess, at San Jacinto. It's l1,ooo feet. From there, I went to Mount Whitney, which is r4,ooo feet. Then I said I wanted to climb Mount McKinley, at ??,ooo feet. I got up to Alaska and took a look at this massive mountain, and decided that's not the kind of mountain climbing I am capable of doing, so I didn't trythat, but I've hiked in on many of thebigmountainsintheHimalayas. I'vesleptnearAnapurnaSouth,whichrisestoz6,ooo feet. I've beento r4,ooo inthe Andes. I've cli"'hed mountains in Norway and Switzerland, and in the Sierras and Rockies. I love to clim.b, and I love the peace of mind and satisfaction of accomplishment.

Didyou clim-b the mountains forthe challenge?

To be on and near them, beeause I had spent so much time as a girl with my dog in the mountains behind where we lived. They rose from ?,ooo to 5,ooo. Nobodywas up.there and I could sit and think and look and have my thoughts aud dreams. But see what you find when you're out in nature. I found this litt1e shell on a beach in Australia. It's exactly the shape of the cochlea inyour inner ear. That's what the cochlea looks like. It makes two and a half turns. It winds around a central pillar, similar to your inner ear. When students come to my *Look office and they can't understand the coehlea from a textbook, I say, at it. This is your cochlea in three dimensions. Isn't it wonderful?"

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 95 CREDI BILITY AND POWER

Were there evertimes wheayou feltpowerless?

Yes, the budget at the hall. I eried. I literally cried in frustration, and I had never cried in front of groups or people or anything. The first time they first asked me to apply for the job, the hall was something like $5oo,ooo in debt. When I accepted the position the next tirne, I didn't even ask about the debt because I wanted the job. I didn't even hrow it still had a was at LHS was so impossible nobody could $5oo,ooo debt. The way the budget "'anaged understand it. One woman had been the budget officer for decades, and she had her private management style, t}e way she did things, whichwere in her head. Anybody else who Iooked at it couldn't understand it. I Imew that was my nemesis because I couldn't handle it. I didn't know how to clean up the problems. I never did, and at the end when I left, I cried again. I didn't tell anybody, but that's why I cried. I felt so badly that I had run into something I could not handle. So what did the director of finances do? She quit when I gave up my executive management position. Several other rnanagers up there also Ieft when the new director came in. Staff me"'hers just weren't competent to the degree necessary to have a balanced budget. I'm told that the new director increased the debt I ir:herited even more. I didn't increase the debt, I just couldn't get rid of it. So I put facingthe debt off until the end of my official term of office. No, I really could not handle that situation, which really hurt.

Howfrustrating.

Yes.'With my own research budget, I'm fine. I'm fine with my own bank account. You take in this much andyou spend this much-very simple, but at LHS, the problemwas different.

Is it possible to be nufturing.and a team builder and still be powet{ul?

Oh, I think so. I look at our group of women that worked in my lab. Wb were all nurturiag. I had to be their leader and their team builder and fight for everything for them to be sure things went well. They are all fine, cooperative, very diligent, highly intelligent ladies.

Didyou everhave to fire anyone inyourlab?

No, one or two guit. They just didn't like the kind of work so they quit, but I don't think I fired anybody. They all said at dinnerthe other night that they enjoyed being in the lab. One woman who came is a physician practicing up in Davis. She wanted to be with the group because she had worked in the lab so she had dinner with us. She said still our lab experience was the happiest time in her life.

95 . MARIAN DtnMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY CREDIBILITY AND POVER

It sounds like one of the happiest tiaes inyourlife.

'W'e Right. Ss1 [ think ype made it happen. hew what we wanted. As long as the kidi were okay, gettingtheir schooling, your husband was busy, thenyou could do what you liked.

You've been oa so manFeoamittees and ia aetiuities in Berkeley, and in the communit7r, amongthem, the Raad Coryoration?

I was onthe Rand Corporationboard fortenyer"r.'6 Iof""t, I received a note fromthem yesterdaybecause I just resigned because they showed me the schedule I'd have to keep in the fuhrre. I thought, not with little'Wi[, my grandson, back in Califor:ria, I don't need to sit on corporate boards. I've got to weigh my priorities and he definitely comes first.

How important was belongiag to orgaaizations to you?

I thinkwe are all very social in our family, as I look at my children, they are too. Serving with others is very important.

How about your professioaal oryanizations ?

Not as much because I don't seem to fit in with them. I don't look like an anatomisj, is what theywould say. Once, one of the professors who is a zoologist asked me to take his little tiny crayfish backto Baltimore. I was goingto Baltimore to give a lecture, and would I carrythem for him. I got off the plane, and I looked in that whole big mass of people out there, and I *There's said, the manwho gets these crayfish," and I was right. He was the man to receive them.

Howdidyoulaow?

Well, he looked like a zoologist. He appeared to be focused on his science.

In a senseyou donT fit the stereo!rye of a scientist.

But that hurts, too. I mean I went to the Cajal Club once, wherever it was meeting onthe East Coast. That's a distinguished club with neuroscientists. I walked in and the first thing, 'You don't look like you belong here." I thought, would they have said that to a black man? 'Would they have said that to a Hispanic? I thinl< a blonde woman who is not where she belongs is more discriminated against than almost anybody. When I spoke once to the Rotary Club, the master of ceremonies said, "For a blonde, that was a great talk." flave you ever thought of this kind of discrimination?

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE .97 CREDIBILITY AND POTER

There are so manyjokes about blondes.

I beowit.

Butyou didnT change

I still haven't. I'm the only one on campus who appears to be wearing a skirt. I walk across *I aad I say, like the lools of a woman in a skirt." Today I've got slacks on. On the days I don't teach, I wear slacks.

Didyou everhave difficultyjoiningclubs and organizatioas thatyou needed to be in oryou wanted to be ia?

That I wanted to be in? No. I was very lucky on aII the senate gsynmittees. I becr"'e chairman of the committee on committees, which is the cornrnittee for piclci',g all the rest of the senate committees. Most of the facultytreated me weII.

Why doyou thinkyou were chosen to be on these committees over otherc?

I volunteer, and then someone chooses out of those who volunteer. I don't know, maybe because i kept Eriet and didn'ttalktoo much.

Do a lot ofpeople volunteer for these com.mittees?

We all have to. The reguest for coznmittee senrice is sent out to all faorlty, but I was told that I had volunteered more than anybody else.

You seem to have a strongpresence. You aren t shy aboutyour opiaions;.

No. If I feel I've got somethingto say, I certainly say it.

Is it in the wayyou say it?

I don't krow. Maybe it is.

Did these organizations helpyou? You helped them obuiously- Did theyhelpyou?

I don't know. I thinktheyhelped me because I learned from professors in different disciplines. I love to listen to them talk about their fields. It's, again, a social situation to be with intelligent, interesting colleagues.

98 . MARIAN DteMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY MEI{ToRING

How would you define a uentor?

A mentor is somebody whom you respect in many ways, not only intellechrally but ethically and just personally, the whole spectrum of good, fine human characteristics. Krech was my meator in a true sense of the word. I couid work with him. I respected his mind and I respected his input in all sorts of ways. He was a friend. Our data were above both of us, and *squeeze so we just worked on our data, and we tried, as he taught me, to my data" - get everything out of it.

Wat does that mean?

It means you just don't look at the superficial results that are evident, you look beyond. 'We What could this mean if it were this way or this way or this way? reallyworked with our data. Itwasn't a superficial cursorytask.

You obuiously are a mentor to many students, ceftainly graduate students and probably others. Do you mentor your studeats all alike or do you mentor females differently than you mentor males?

I think so. I work with the male graduate students differently because they are, in general, more focused and a bit more aggressive. They are definitely more foeused. Theywant to get that paper out fast, whereas when Rosalie, for example, was a graduate student, we'd sit and talk about the data, and redly examine what it means from this way or that way. We sort of "squeezed" it a little more ratherthan moving rapidlythrough it to produce aaother publication. We published, yes, but at a different pace.

T[h.ich is more satisfyingtoyou?

I guess like everphing, I like all aspects. Each student is an individual and I enjoy each unigue person.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD oF SCiENCE . 99 MENTORING

Vnich do you feel you're more successfuI at, or do you? Have you ever differentiated with your successes?

I never differentiated as far as gettingthe data ge"npleted. There were some fsrhals students *fought' who never to publish and still have not. It depends on the student with whom I a"' working.

Have you ever u.entored somebody who you thought you'd failed ?

Yes, very definitely. I realized just recentlywhen some other college official wanted me to help them more with a difficult student. I said, "I doa't thinL I can help him an5rmore." So now he is on his own. It was tough for me. I really couldn't progress with him. He aever Icxew the difference between truth and fiction. And he still doesn't. I lorew he was going to get caught sometime, and he did. Other administrators called me with concerns about this young Ph.D. I said, 'Yes, and my letter of recommendation e'nphasized what he did we1t. I didn't cover his other side, but I thought that you would see what obvious areas were missing." Those administrators eventually awakened, and had to deal with the problem.

How do you how when to give up on something? Not just mentoriry, I a thiaking about anything.

Aoythi"g in life? That's a good Erestion. I havea't given up on goals I want to aecomplish, and onthe things that are important, my children, you know, when it was tough.

How about professionally? Did you ever know when to give up?

I thir:kthe other person has to do something so extreme that I realize there's no reason continuin8 at all. That I have done.

Canyou talk about it?

It was one of our team who evidently did not like the fact that my anatomy research was ' going so well. He wanted to take my first-class technician away from me. I learned about this later when she told me that he came and wanted to know if she would co6e to work with him. I was beginningto get a feeling of what he thought about me when my promotion came up before the budget committee. I was told by people who were there that he did not support my promotion. The next year, the budget committee jumped me a step to make up for what he had not supported. After that, I had nothing to do with him. But recently, there was a student who was having problems with his selected professors, and all of us had to work together. This former team member sat in that chair where you are now, end $re worked like

lOO ' MERIAN DTEUOND:AN ORAL HISTORY MENTORINC

ve{F civilized people towards the benefit of this student. So you crir overcome obstacles if you have to for the benefit of someoae else.

It doesn? seem to be inyour nature to give up easily.

No, I have climbed those mountains. As I get older, my dendrites are beginning to deerease a little bit so my old-time memories become sharper. I think more about what I did as a child and when I was climbing mountains and going to sehool and developiog -y dendrites.

What do you look for inyour students as potential scientists?

Curiosity and willingness to work. I think those are so important because I've accepted some students who did not have the B average to be a graduate student. I had to work with them and help them, but they wanted to work and they were diligent and curious. They have done just beautifully. They are surgeons and,/or first-class researchers, or physicians or teachers, etc.

A work ethic is very important to you.

Very important, yes. I love to work. I love the satisfaction of it. I tell my husband, "I'm a worker bee.' It just feels good.

It sounds like he is one also.

He's a worker bee as weII.

What would you teII young vlomen who want to suceeed in scieace today?

Follow your heart. I thir:k that's the most important thing. Not what you think is fashionable, but what you think has to be done. That's whenyou get the greatest satisfaction. I do, because I watch those who follow fashion, and fashion comes and goes. But if you followedyour heart and built on a solid premise, thenyou.have something substantial to look back on in lateryears.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 1o1 ro? o MentAN DlaMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY MARRIAGE AI\rD ScIENCE

Are science and marriage compatible?

Oh, very much so. Yes. Your partner doesn't have to be in your own field. Dick and I were very comFatible when he was in his ph;rsies and I was in my neurobiology and we were raising children. We both had high standards and we both were very co"npatible with raising the children. We wanted them to get the best of anythingwe could give them, and we still do. We still call each otherif there's anythingwiththe children. It's sort of an extended family. Last month I drove Dickto San Leandro for his eye exam because he wasn't certain he could see well enough after his cataract surgery. Anre lives down in southern California, "Arne, do you mind if I drive Dick to his doctor?" I waited while Dick had his eye exam and then drove him back again. If he aeeds help, I'mthere.

He didn't remarzy?

No.

There's a statistic on women scientists and divorce. It's veryhigh.'7 'When It's very high, and it's very high among women academics. I wasn't divorced, the women used to like to eome lal k to me because they said, 'You're the only woman academic who's not divorced."

Wasyour divorce a result ofyour career?

It was many things, because he wasn't a partner in the sense that I began to need a partner at that time of life.'Whenthe children were small, my directions were helpingthe children and beiag a basically good wife, preparing meals so Dick could have all his Jriends in and domestic things like this. I thinl< for the first fifryyears, that's what I wanted primarily. But when I wanted somebody to go to scientific meetings with me and really become a true companion, both intellectually and emotionaliy and spiritually in everything, then I needed somebody who was a &fferent kind of person, with different interests. Dick says now if he were to go into a field, he'd go into biochemistry ratherthan into nuclear physics. He now

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE o 103 MARRIACE AND SCIENCE

sees the interest inthe biological component, but he wasn't interested earlier. Nuclear physies was the prima donna of all sciences in the fifties and early sixties.

You're fortunate that you found somebody the second tiae around who shares your interests.

I feel so too. I was told that Arne was kind of a bear and he was vely stiff. This was how someone defined A:::eold Sheibel. I lcrew one of his former post-docs who came to work with me and I said, -WelI, what's he like?" He said, 'V"ry stiff, wears his bowtie, always has on his lab coat." His wife was very sick, so he did his work at the university and irnmediately went home, so people didn't sit around 6lk to him. When I picked him up at the "od airport, I had my friend come with me, my technician, and I said, "I'm picking up this sort of a bear of a man, but the students want him to speak, so will you come with me to pick him up?" It hrrned out he was just the opposite. He was so emotionally involved in this setting, because it was sort of like a bird flying loose from a cage, after his wife died.

To com.e up here to Berkeley?

Yes, and to come here. He loved Berkeley on first sight, he loved the sunsets, he loved everything.

I nclu di ng the p ro fes s o n Qaughte r)

So, that's what happened. He appeared to be awakeningto a new life.

Is the problem with women scientists and mariage overurork?

I think it's the wayyou're treated, because I realize how I'm treated as a womar much more than I did when I was with Dick. AII of our social friends were from his field, but now being in the same field withArne, he gets the attention of the other male neuroscientists when . we're together, so I feel that definitely there is a difference. If I had married a man in my own field the first time and felt bad, I might have had problems earlier, but since Dick's field of nuclear physics was entirely different field from mine, I was never asked for anything professionally from his colleagues. I think there is that old boy-ism that could hurt the woman scientist if she were in that field too early. I think of Maria Goeppert Mayei.'8 'When I was in my early forties, I met a physicist from UC San Diego on a train in Switzerland who happened to hrow Dr. Mayer. I said, "Oh, how's Maria Goeppert Mayer?" *Oh, *l'm *WelI, He said, she died." I said, so sorryto hearthat." I said, 'How?" He said, she smoked herself to death because she was so bitter at the way she had been treated as a

I.o4. . IdARIAN DIEMOND:AN ORAL HISTORY MARRIACE AND SCIENCE

youngwonunscientist.'ArldshehadtheNobelPrize! Howmanypeoplehaveheardof Maria Goeppert Mayer? She offered new information about the nuclear shell struslure and received the Nobel Prize for her work. That's another reason you should not go baek in time and pick up the bitterness that you felt when you were young and look at those people who treated me so badly. Thatwas past. Go forward, and enjoyyour glory, but obviously Maria Mayer didn't, accordingt6 hirn, which I felt was tragic. Today I tell my students not to become bitter about early hurtful events because you are the only one who suffers, not those who inflicted the wounds.

A LEADER IN THE FiELD OF SCIENCE O }O5 ro5 . MARIAN DteuoND:AN oRAL HISToRy RE FLE crl o It s

Inyour career, what haveyou obserued to be the reasons people fail?

I think they don't have the courage to keep trying when it's tough, and they don't have the courage to start at the very beginning and, rea1ly get a background.. I've watchedwomenwho sa\{r me succeeding, and they said, "Oh, I'd like to do that too," and they thought they could come sailing right into the field. There's a tremendous e'nount of preparation that I had to go through to learn this field about the most comFlicated mass of protoplasm on this earth. The womenwho I've seenthat have dropped out felt theyweren't beingtreated like they deserved to be treated. They thought they were better than other people thought they were. I remem-ber Cecelia Payne Gaposchkin at Harvard wrote, "Do more than is expeeted of you to make up foryour own shortcomings.'r9 I realize that I have my shortcomings, too.'When I am not getting ,loog guite so well, something s wrongwith me. I've got to come up to snuff, too. Some people don't realize that. I listen to some of the women around our dinner table at night. One of them, verybright, and had come from McGill University, very sharp, could have done anything, but she didn't think she was receiving the supportive treatment she deserved, so she guit.

Petseveraace, again, isnT it?

Yes. But there are role models who show you what not to do. I .ike my oldest brother, who could have succeeded any,uhere if he would have started at Standard Oil at the bottom of the ladder and worked his wayup. But he thought he should start in middle management after he got out of college, and he probably could if the people would haie tolerated him.

How have you obseryed science changing?

Technoiogy has increased exponentially and set the fast pace. Science progresses with technolory. We started in light microscopy. As soon as the electron microscope came in, everybody forgot light microscopy and went to electron microscopy. As soon as the new wave of anytechnolosr comes in, nobody cares about the old anymore. Newtechnologywins out.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . Lo7 EFLECTIONS

Howhaveyou seenwomen in science research chaaging?

They are doing fine. They are following tleir hearts. They brow early on what they want. The doors are open. They are movingthrough smoothly if they are motivated and diligent and have their priorities straight.

So the chaage is that a science career is more accessible.

It's much more accessible to them, but they still have the problems of interdigitating family with work, because there are only twenty-four hours in a day. They still have those decisions to make and priorities to decide. If their dreams are to rise to a professorship within the first co-uple of decades and have a nice family life, too, it's gomg to be a real ehallenge to do bothwell.

Howwouldyou aduise these wouen?

I say have your priorities straight. You have a hundred years. Durir:gyour first fifty, your family should be your priority, because the second fifty, your children are gone and you have all that time. But lay your groundwork, keep the two gomg, so you keep up with the fie}d, but realize you might not be top in your field right away. You can become a first-class citizen inthe next fifty, if you have the energy.

Ifyou have the eaergr and the dendrites. What would you say has been the aost fulfilling time inyourlife?

The most fuIfilling is right now, because I've knownwhat I wanted and I have come stepwise over the decades. I've got this wonderfuI family and I have these wonderful shrdents, and I aehieved what I wanted to do in my research. I did it my owtx way. One professor on campirs *Well, said the other day, look at what they've done to you." I didn't even resPond to him' because I've done what I wanted with my goals. It wasn't a male goal, it was a female goal, and it has worked out. I feel extremely fortunate at this time. I me:ux I could skip now, and I do, Iiterally, sometimes down the hall. The professor next door is fifty and he kids me' "Let's skip.' Here we're both skipping down the hall. It means that you're happywithwhere you are and what are you going to do next.

*Look Wat did the professor mean urhen he said, what they did to you"?

Because some people thinkthat I should have become chancellor and I should have done this. I didn't want that, as I told you. Clark Kerr said, '"Would you like to be considered for chancellor of UC Santa Cruz?- "No." And he didn't understand why. Then I seat him

roB MaRIAN DlaMoND:AN oRAL HISToRY REFLECTIONS

something that came out that showed pictures of, I don't lcnovro there were four people of histoqT in the field of education and I was the woman in the group. I said, "That means more to me because my individud contfiutions to education and the ner:vous system will last and affect more lives than my being a chancellor."

Thatyou were a first.

Yes. My idols are not chancellors around the world. My idols are people like Louis Pasteur, who broke the boundaries in science, or SirVillir- Osler, the great physician/teacher. My aunt wanted me to be dean of women here at Berkeley so badly. She thought that role was *6s1 lmFortant, and I kept salang, "Oh, .{uat Cora, the last thing I want to be is dean of women." I wanted to do something creative, to have a large impact, not a title that was imFressive and command.ed respect because of the title. I served in the d.ean's office because I was dean of advising, and I felt advising here at Berkeley in the r95os was terrible because no professorwas advising students onwhat ki''d of courseworkto take. Look at where advising has gone today. We have dl these layers of advising now. It's just terrific. I won't saythat's due to me, but I wanted to be a part of the growth and do something meaningful with advising.

Who isyourheroine? You named two heroes. Doyou have a heroine?

I guess if I didn't find one, I felt I had to create one. I wxs,lhinking of that the other day. I wanted to be a woman scientist, but I didn't see any older women scientists who seemed to *Ok care about clothes, or cooking, or }oving children; the feminine side of life. So I said, y, I'm going to be a woman scientist who cared." I like beautiful clothes. At my son Rick's forly-fifth birthday the other day, I called to the two young women, Molly Colin and Alice *Let's Kaswan, who are now part of the family, and said, all dress up for his birthday." Boy, did they look beautiful. They wore their black dresses and their jewels and everything. They normally are in pants. That's the only time Arne has ever seen them dressed up, and he said, "They really are beautiful." Where do women have a chance to be beautiful? Pretty soontheywill have an old body and it will be too late. I decided I'm goingto keep that as a pattern for us when we have family gatherings. They loved it. Thay looked so good, and they felt good about themselves. They are very competent women. Alice is a professor at the University of San Francisco. She's a lawyer and enviroamentalist. Molly is a journalist, who has written for Newsweekand The Christian Science Moaitorwhile living in Russia, as well as other publications.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE. Io9 REFLECTI ONS

Didyou dress up in the lab?

Yes. I always wore a lab coat, but I felt good beneath it in mypretty clothes, at least io *y opinisl.

Do you have aay aduice or aay final words foryoung.woaen?

I still think the best one is following your heart, because if you know in your heart what you want to do, you find a way to make it happen. It may not come today or tomorrow. Many people think I'm just a professor, but they don't realize that I've worked stepwise to get what I wanted, balancing many roles' wife, mother, professor, athlete, art, etc. And it works. Now I loaow I want otherthings, and I don't krrow guite what to do. I called a land consenration group and they gave me lists to call to save the land, because I hate the way we're building on everything. I called yesterday for Yes on Measure D, because it stands to preserve our Iand east of here in the foothills. The developers are expanding in an uncontrolled fashion. I don't know if I'll give that fulI time eventually, because I feel so good about the field I'm in, however, I feel so bad about what we're doing with ourundeveloped land. W'e used to be able to ride fromVallejo all the wayto Sacramento and see the farmland, and now we see dl these big factories. Why do they have to come in there? Why did we have to put casinos at Lake Tahoe? If we can only get developments like Sea Banch where you go to a board before building something. It is a respectable architectural board that has kept Sea Ranch beautifuI.

It is beautiful. I think I've asked you this before, how old are you?

Seveaty-three. I'll be seventy-four in two weeks. I'm a veteran. Nove-her rr.

Howlongdoyou intend to continue on at Berkeley?

As long as I feel that I'm contributing something of value scientifically and I'm able to help the students. If the technology allows - it's already getting to where I don't even try to keep up with it. But I can do the kind of things that help the students, find what theywant, for example, Naomi Gribneau, mygraduate student, is bright and I cdn see that she gets the courses she needs, the administrative adyiee, the contacts and research advice.

Thank you for the wond ertul intetyiews.

You're welcome.

11O . MARIAN DIEUOND:AN ORAL HISTORY APPEr{DIx

After carefully editingthe edited transcript, Dr. Diamond added the following,

As I read our interviews, I find the most important aspect of all, the thrill of discovery about the wonders of the brain are not mentioned. Since these were the driving force of all this human activity and interaction, I feel we should mention at least the three most valuable contributions to society that I think our almost forty years of research have offered. I purposely have stayed with very simple experimentaltechniques because I have found they provide long-lasting, meaningful results. I believe truth is always simple. My research has focused on the microscopic anatomy of the brain. I began this research on the brain using a histochemical technique, but soon turned to quantitative histoanatomy, the microscopic anatomy, because the results are long lasting and are as meaningful today as they were over thirty-five years ago w.hen they were first discovered. By measuring through microscopic methods the thickness of the cerebral cortex, we have made three significant discoveries: 1) The anatomy of the cerebral cortex, the outer layers of the cerebral hemispheres, can respond respectively either positively or negatively to enriched or impoverished environment at ANY age, prenatalto extremely old age. 2) On the average there are significant anatomical differences between the right and left cerebral cortices in the male that are not seen in the female. Her cortical thickness does not differ significantly between her right and left hemispheres; the male right is significantly thicker than the left. These differences are determined by the male and female sex hormones. 3) An area of the cerebral cortex in the front of the brain behind th6 forehead and to the side (the dorsal lateral frontal cortex) is related to the immune system. lt is deficient in the immune-deficient mouse and the deficiency is reversed with a transplant of the thymus gland, which produces the white blood cells called T-cells. One experiment showed that if humans play a card game that has the potential to stimulate this area, a significant increase occurs in a type of T-cell in the blood. ln other words, here is a mechanism to voluntarily stimulate the immune system via the cerebral cortex. Each of these discoveries has the potential to change humanity toward understanding ourselves and each other as we continue to populate and learn how to protect our precious environment. l'm not saying it will, but it has the potential.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE e I. I1 r r ? . MARIAN DtaM oN D:AN oRAL HISToRy NOTES

r. The Lawrence Hall of Science is a public science museum and research center for K- rz education at the University of Califoraia, Berkeley. Dr. Diamond seryed as director from Lggo-tgg1. e. SirV'illiam Osler, 1849-r9r9, was a Canadian physician and professor of medicine.

3. Systemic lupus erythematosus is a chronie inflamfratory autoimmune disorder that may affect many organ systems. The course of t}e disease mayvary from 2 mild spisedic illness to a severe fatal disease.

4.MargaretRossiter, WoaenScientistsia,A^aerica,r?8-?g.Asurveyofwomeascientistsattwentyleading uaiversities in r95o reveded t}'at women scientists represented just 6.7a perc erit (+24 of 7, o57) of the total science faculty.

5.EvelyaFoxKeller,-LongLivetleDifferencesBetweenMenaud'WomenScientists," TheScieatist,(r99o), states that the r95os and r96os, a dark period in women's history, saw a generation of women who "sought to sustain their stmggle to be scientists by tacitly agreeing to expurge from t}eir professional identity the fact that tley were women."

5. HenryEtzko*tiz, CarolKeroelgor, MiehaelNeuschatz, BrianUni,ry94, "Barriersto'WomeninAcademic Science and Engineering," inV'illie PearsonJr. and Irwin Fechter eds, Who V'ill Do Science? Educatingthe Next Gezeration "Women suffered isolation in autocratically run, competitive laboratories."

7. Marian Diamoad Ph.D. and Jane Hopson, Ihe Magic Trees of the Miad, Howto Nurnre Your &ild's Intelligezce, Creatiuity, and Healthy Eaotions from Birth ThroughAdolescenca Plume, 1999.

8. By the r95os, the nur-ber of women scientists had declined to roughly half of *hat it had been during the early part of tle qoth cettury. Zhe Scieztist 1990.

9. Londa Schebinger, Has Femizism Changed Science? (Haward.University Press, 1999) considers the issue of gender bias i:e science. ro. Dr. Diamond's teashing avrards include the Distinguished JsxshingAward, the OutstandingTeacher Award, Califoraia Professor of the Year, Natio.al Gold Medalist for Teach;ng and third plaee in tle natioaal Professor of the Year award. rr. The Free Speech Movement was a student protest movement that began at the University of California, Berkeley in 1964 when tle university adminish4lioo attempted to restrict political aetivism on the campus.In Decemler 1964, over a thousand student protestors seized one ofthe administration buildings. Eighty professors and a majority of the teachirg assitants eanceled classes to demonstrate solidarity with the protestors. rz. Clark Kerr, President ofthe University of Caiifornia in all its branches, reqrested city, county and state police help in brealing up the sit-in at the administration building. Over 6oo students were arrested. Although he was a distinguished educational leader with a reputation for liberalism, his actions during the student uprising cost him the presidency of the university.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . 113 NOTES

13. The Men's Faculty Cf,ub dining room. was open to women faculty i:r r9Z?.

r4. The Pregnancy DiserimturationAct in 1978 raade it illegal 1e1 6s smFloyer to discriminate against an employee because of pregnancy, cbildbirth or pregnancy-related conditions. Thus, 4 ly6rnen gan't be fired, denied a job or denied a promotion because she is pregnant.

r5. Agnes Fay Morgau was a professor of Home Economics at the University of Califoraia, Berkeley for 4o years. She retired in 1956.

16. Raad (a contraction of t}e term research and development) Corporation is a "thirk ta:rk- that helps imFrove policy and decision makingthrough research and analysis.

r7. Goverament Report on\[omen, Minorities, and Persons with Disabilities in Science and Engineering, 1996: Doctoral women scieatists and engiueers are twice as likely as aen never to bave married or to be divorced. Twelve percent of the women, but only six percent of the mer1 were divorced.

18- Dr. Maria Goeppert Mayer, a research physicist at the Uaiversity of Califonria, San Diego, won t}e Nobel Prize in 1953. She r,ras the secoad woman in history to vriD. a Nobel physics prize. The headli.e iathe local newspaper read, "S.D. Mother'Wins Nobel Physics Prize." payns-Gaposchlin r9. Dr- Qssilia was a famed astrophysicist at Hanrard University. She was oae of the very few women to head a department at a major university.

r14 - MeRIAN DIaUOND:AN ORAL HISTORy PH OTOGRAPHS

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . II5 PHOTOCRAPHS

rr6 . MARIAN DlaMoND:AN oRAL HisroRy l: I i ? ,..,

lbe resea3ch teanQ to r) Edvrard Benrcct, Madarr" Daeid Krech anil Mark Rozersweig amouaciag the results of their r€search on chaDgee in tbe brain as a coDsq1uerce of eariched or imfoverisbed euvirorncnts. Their fiadirgs were publisheil ia 1964..

Lab techniciens (l to r) Carol Irgh^m, Berrrice Lindner and Ruth Johnson. The warm convivial environment in Marian's lab made doing quantitative morPholory Iess tedious. The women would. work very hard, then take time out to have cake and tea and share Personal erperiences with eaeh other. Marian aeloowledged the technicians in her book Enri ching He rc dity.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE . \I9 PHOTOCRAPES

An enthusiastic, dyaa:odc speaker, Marian bas lectured all overthe world, indudiag g[angtrai, Orina, wbere this photographwas tal

Her travels took Marian to the United Keuya Club in Nairobi, where she created something of a stir w'ith eitizens who couldn't believe a woulan could play pool.

r?o o MenIAN DlauoND:AN oRAL HIsroRy PHOTOCRAPHS

Marian eulogizing Nobel laureate chemist and founder of the lawrence Ha}} of Scienee, GIe,n Seaborg, at his Soth birthday celebration in 1993. Marian served as director of the lawrence Hall of Science from L99o-r99S.

In t995, Professor Diamond was named the CaliforniaAlumniAssociatioa's alumna of the year. She was the fourth woman of the 53 recipients to win this award. Other recipients of the award include former U.S. secretary of Defease Robert McNamara, seea here witl Marian and UC ChancellorTien.

A LEADER iN THE FIELD OF SCIENCE r?1 PHOTOGRAPHS

(Above) Showing a young audience a brain. Dr. Diamond has been a teacher

for over 4,5 years, sharing her passion for the science of the brain vrith sfirdents of eveqy generation. (Below) Dr. Diamond with graduate students.

tzz. \dARIAN DleuoND:AN oRAL HISToRY PE OTO CRAPE S

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Fromrggoto ,gg5, Ih. Diamoad rvasthe tlfuectorof lawrcrce Ha]lof Scieucc. The hallwas sstablishedin 1968 attbe Universityof California atBerleleyinhonor of EmestO. lavrreace, UC's firstNobel laureate. It is a rational leader ia the dereloprcnt of innovativr materials ard programs for snrdents 2nd teachers. (Photo by Richard Hoyt, courtesy of tLe [avrrence Hall of Science, Unirrcrsig of Califoroia at Berkeley) .

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF scIENcE o T?3 PBO?OGRAPES

Left to Wt AeaDiamond, Bick Dianoad, Mariaa, Jeff Diemoad.. Marian's first basband, Dic& Diaamad, supported ber deeile to becoee a rorking aotber ia the r95os, althorgb otter people wereat as grmpatbetic. They dida't uaderstand t&e aeed to bc ereative aad ueefirl outsid.e tbe home as well as &eide.

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Marian and Anre pose with her daughter, Catheiae Diamoad took her motler's adyice Anse, aad the first grandchld. to follor- her heart. She is a professor of theater i:r Taiwap.

L"4 e MeRlex Dl*,laoliD:AN 0RAL HIST0&Y PHOTOGNAPHS

Sigaingcopiesofthewell-receivedbook. MagicTreesoftheMind,wbchshewroteiacollaboration with jouraalist Janet Hopson. The boolc illumiaates how a ehild's brain physically respoads to euviroameatal in{lueaces and gives practica} advice oa providi:rg cbildren with the nurturiag aad stimulatirg coadititions &ey need to develop and thrive.

Marian (center) with second husband Arnold Scheibel and a cousin. Arne is a renowned neuroanatomist at UCIA in southern California.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCiENCE 1?5 ? H OTO C RAPI{ S

Now there is a younger generation to love, nurhrre and awaken to the excitement and wonders of creativity and the environment.

(above) Creating clay figures with grandson V'i[.

(right) Exploring the outdoors with grandson Cory.

(bottom) Hiking in the Tetons with young friends. Marian learned to be strong in her convictions from mountain climbiog, the determination that she was going to reach the top, no matter how tough it was.

Lz6. MARIAN Dteuot{D:AN oRAL HISToRY PHTOCRAPHS

Marian has balanced maqy roles to achieve her goals, wife, mother, professor. author and athlete. Axd it workeC.

A LEADER IN THE FIELD OF SCiENCE t2Z