Oral History Center University of The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California

David Maggard

Dave Maggard: Oral Histories on the Management of Intercollegiate Athletics at UC Berkeley, 1960 – 2014

Interviews conducted by John Cummins in 2010

Copyright © 2017 by The Regents of the University of California Since 1954 the Oral History Center has been interviewing leading participants in or well-placed witnesses to major events in the development of Northern California, the West, and the nation. Oral History is a method of collecting historical information through tape-recorded interviews between a narrator with firsthand knowledge of historically significant events and a well- informed interviewer, with the goal of preserving substantive additions to the historical record. The tape recording is transcribed, lightly edited for continuity and clarity, and reviewed by the interviewee. The corrected manuscript is bound with photographs and illustrative materials and placed in The Bancroft Library at the University of California, Berkeley, and in other research collections for scholarly use. Because it is primary material, oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete narrative of events. It is a spoken account, offered by the interviewee in response to questioning, and as such it is reflective, partisan, deeply involved, and irreplaceable.

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All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal agreement between The Regents of the University of California and David Maggard dated April 23, 2012. The manuscript is thereby made available for research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to The Bancroft Library of the University of California, Berkeley. Excerpts up to 1000 words from this interview may be quoted for publication without seeking permission as long as the use is non-commercial and properly cited.

Requests for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to The Bancroft Library, Head of Public Services, Mail Code 6000, University of California, Berkeley, 94720-6000, and should follow instructions available online at http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/collections/cite.html

It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: “Dave Maggard: Oral Histories on the Management of Intercollegiate Athletics at UC Berkeley: 1960 – 2014” conducted by John Cummins in 2010, Oral History Center, The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley, 2017.

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Table of Contents—Dave Maggard

Interview 1: May 26, 2010

Audio File 1 1

Maggard’s college years at Cal on a football scholarship — Training with for a new coaching job — Teaching and coaching high school in Hayward — Training to compete nationally in the shotput — Raising a family, working at Los Altos High School — Training for the Olympics — Becoming head track coach at Cal — Isaac Curtis and the NCAA — Arleigh Williams — Cal’s “very hard line against the NCAA” — The NCAA’s decision to put Cal’s Athletic Department on probation — Transition from Chancellor Roger Heyns to Chancellor Al Bowker — Maggard is appointed at Cal — Walter Byers — More about the NCAA — “Cheating” in the Pacific Coast Conference — Cal’s stance — Coach Mike White — Bear Backers — Cal is removed from NCAA probation — More about Pac-10 — faculty unrest — The role of Athletic Director — Alumni relations and sports — Mike White’s departure — Coach — Chancellor Mike Heyman — Cal in the Pac-10 — Chancellor Chang-Lin Tien — A job offer at the University of Virginia — Heyman’s counter offer — Maggard stays at Cal — Coaches’ salaries —The Copper Bowl — More about Chancellor Tien — Mike Heyman’s fundraising at Cal — Cal Sports Eighties — Walter Haas — A job offer and a threat — and Governor Ronald Reagan — More about Heyman’s fundraising

Audio File 2 36

Heyman and admissions — Faculty advisors and a push to improve the Athletic Study Center — More about Cal Sports Eighties — Russell White — Athletics, admissions, and a special case — , Lou Campanelli — Coaches’ salaries — — Bruce Kennedy — Graduation rates — The Smelser Report — Budgeting and athletics — More about salaries

Interview 2: July 15, 2010

Audio File 3 66

Pac-10 expansion — More about Texas — Report of the Chancellor’s Committee on Intercollegiate Athletics — Money, universities, and sports — Athletic Director — Endowments — UCLA’s Pete Dalis — The Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics — Academic Progress Reports — Finances and college athletics — The University Athletics Board — Athletics budgets and expenditures

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Audio File 4 79

Professor Glenn Seaborg— Various leadership and administrative styles — Donors, fundraising, and sports — Bear Backers — UC Berkeley chancellors and the Berkeley Mission — Cal: second-largest public university in terms of number of sports — Cutting certain sports in the Cal athletics department— Competition for facilities among Men’s, Women’s, and Recreational Sports, and Physical Education and Athletics — Sacramento [state government] and Cal — Politics and budgets — Golf and wrestling — Olympic sports— Endowments — The Smelser Report — The University vs. Athletics — A Paul McCartney concert — “Why can’t we be good at athletics and academics at the same time?” — More about facilities — Institutions, regions, and cultures

Interview 3: June 6, 2011

Audio File 5 99

Athletics Department people and Physical Education Faculty — Roberta Park — Athletic Facilities — Culture at Cal under Chancellor Clark Kerr — And under Chancellors Tien and Heyman — Joe Debley — Maggard’s experiences as a young athlete — Brutus Hamilton

Audio File 6 116

The importance of coaching — More about Brutus Hamilton — — Maggard’s work as an administrator — Thoughts on ’s dual roles as Athletic Director and coach of the crew team — The evolution of sports medicine and counseling at Cal — Maggard’s experiences with coaches, trainers, and counselors — Medicine in athletics, especially for football and basketball players — Cindy Chang— Changes in treatments of sports injuries — Athletes and bad behavior — leaves Texas for Baylor — The business of cutting sports at Cal — Finances — The various approaches of chancellors to athletics at Cal — Alumni and sports — Athletic recruitment and entitlement — NCAA violations — Problems enforcing NCAA rules — Budget overruns and the threat of reductions in sports — Maggard’s experiences in Houson — Problems with divisions and institutions — The Knight Commission

[End of Interview] v

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Interview 1: May 26, 2010 Audio File 1

01-00:00:01 Cummins: This is an interview with Dave Maggard. Okay, so go ahead. You were talking about when you came in.

01-00:00:15 Maggard: I came back to Cal in 1968 after the Mexico Olympics.

01-00:00:23 Cummins: Yeah, now go back to when you were a student at Cal, and what year was that?

01-00:00:24 Maggard: I came to Cal on a football scholarship. Pete [Peter R.] Elliott was the football coach at that time and, as a matter of fact, Joe Kapp recruited me.

01-00:00:39 Cummins: Really.

01-00:00:40 Maggard: I played on the ’59 team, not the Rose Bowl team, but I played that year and then the next year. I had planned to play before injuring my knee.

01-00:00:54 Cummins: What position did you play?

01-00:00:55 Maggard: I came in as a fullback. I came in as a fullback. At that time you played you played both ways—I was a fullback and linebacker.

01-00:01:04 Cummins: That’s right.

01-00:01:05 Maggard: The third game, I moved to tight end; as a matter of fact, the first three games of the ’59 season there were three of us that alternated at fullback: Walt Arnold, George Pierovich, and myself. So then I moved to tight end when we played University of Texas at Austin, and so through that season— came in the next year.

01-00:01:35 Cummins: Yeah, Elliott didn’t last very long.

01-00:01:36 Maggard: Elliott wasn’t there long, no. They did not have a good year his first year; the next year they went to the Rose Bowl. During the ’59 season we had a lot of close games, and he went to following that season.

01-00:01:50 Cummins: Yeah, okay. And Elliott was your coach?

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01-00:01:51 Maggard: Marv Levy followed Elliott. The third practice of the year I injured my knee. That was it for me from the standpoint of football. In high school I’d competed in football, basketball, and track and was decent in all of them and had opportunities in all three. So that’s when I decided to concentrate on track, when I could no longer compete in football. I competed in the shot and discus during that period of time. Brutus Hamilton kept me around for a little bit to help him. Brutus Hamilton was probably the closest friend I had up until the time he passed away in 1970. He was a great friend; he was a great mentor. And I’ll tell you a really quick story about that to give you some idea of what I’m talking about. After I’d finished the competition and I was playing around, he said stay around, before I started teaching and coaching in high school.

01-00:03:13 Cummins: So what year was that? 1963?

01-00:03:15 Maggard: I graduated in ’62 and I was still in Berkeley in ’63 He called me one day. I was still working out a little bit, but Carolyn and I got married actually between my junior and senior year. So she was working and we had David during that period of time. Brutus called me one day and said, “I want you to meet me at the Faculty Club tomorrow night. I want to mention something to you.” And so I said okay, and we went up and had dinner. He said, “There’s a track coaching job open over at San Francisco State. I know the people over there. They want you to take that job.” Now I was twenty-three years old, and he said, “I want you to go over and at least meet them.” So I went over and went through that whole bit. I came back, he said, “They want you to take the job.” I said, “Coach, I can’t take that job.” He said, “Why not?” I said, “Because I’m not ready.” I said, “I’m not ready to do that job.” And he said, “Okay, I want to meet with you again.”

So we had another meeting and he said, “You’re going to be ready to take that job when we come back. Here’s what we’re going to do.” He had been asked to give clinics throughout the Far East, Hawaii, Okinawa, and Japan. So he tells me, “You’re going to be my assistant. I want you between now and then to read everything, I want you to watch every video, I want you to watch every tape, and by the time we get back you’re going to be ready to take that job”. We go, and there were three of us, Brutus, myself, and Jack Williamson, who was our head trainer. We did clinics for the service people. It was with the State Department so we traveled as GS-16s, which is a full-bird colonel, anyhow for a punk kid like me, twenty-three years old, that was a big deal. We began in Hawaii. We gave clinics to the service people and to the coaches on the island, and some of the athletes attended. We went from there to Japan, then down to Okinawa.

We were in Okinawa for seven, eight days and gave—started early in the morning until the late afternoon giving clinics. We didn’t have any anything

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to do after that, so Brutus and I would sit up until all hours of the night. He was an insomniac and he was one of these guys that didn’t sleep very much. We talked about everything. He told me a lot of confidential things about the University, about people, about that period of time that he was there; he ended up being there over thirty years. He knew all about the alumni; he knew all about the inner workings of the University.

Now Brutus was a great man, a Renaissance man. Often times he would invite me up to his place in the evening, recite poetry, he played the harmonica. One of his professors at University of Missouri said that he could recite more poetry than any student he had ever had. It was interesting because he and Rowena, his wife—when I’d go up—we didn’t talk about track. It was all these other things that he exposed me to, so he was a great, great friend.

That period of time when we gave clinics was an intense time of learning, of sharing, and coaching. We came back to Berkeley, and he said, “You’re ready to take that job.” And I said, “I don’t want to take the job.” I said, “I really don’t want to take the job.” At that time you couldn’t coach and also compete. You’d be a professional; you couldn’t get paid for coaching. So I said, “I don’t want to do that.” He said, “You’ve already got one kid; you need to get your profession going. You need to start your career; you need to take that job.” I said, “Coach, I can’t take that job, I’m not ready to do that job, but I don’t want to take that job because I still think I want to compete.”

I began teaching in Hayward in high school, teaching and coaching. Brutus and I stayed in close contact, and it was hard to work out and compete so I didn’t do very much, I didn’t do very much at all until late in the season, late that season in 1965, I think it was, 1965. I decided that I was going to compete late in the year.

01-00:09:07 Cummins: In what?

01-00:09:07 Maggard: In the shot.

01-00:09:08 Cummins: In the shot. Yes, of course. But in what kinds of—

01-00:09:12 Maggard: I competed in just a couple of all-comers meets at San Jose. And then the nationals, the AAU championship in San Diego. I competed in that competition and got second, and so I made the national team. And as it worked out, Brutus was the coach of the national team that year. We competed in Russia, Poland, and Germany, and, Brutus being the , we spent more time together. That was a great learning experience too because that was at a time when the Cold War was really at its pinnacle. We competed in Kiev. This was a men’s and women’s national team, both

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together. Then on to Poland, then to Germany. I thought, “Maybe that’s it, maybe I shouldn’t continue competing,” because I really didn’t have time. I was teaching and coaching in high school, and I was also director of student activities at Los Altos High School by this time.

01-00:10:26 Cummins: Now that didn’t affect your status as an amateur did it?

01-00:10:30 Maggard: No, because I didn’t get paid for coaching.

01-00:10:34 Cummins: Oh, I see, I see.

01-00:10:35 Maggard: And at Sunset High School, the first job I had I taught in the classroom. I went to Los Altos the next year. Los Altos is a great high school. If you’re going to teach and coach at a high school, that’s the place to be. Kids are highly motivated; about 90 percent of those kids go to college. By 1967, we have two kids.

01-00:11:10 Cummins: That changes things.

01-00:11:12 Maggard: We have two kids, and so I go to the principal—

01-00:11:15 Cummins: Is Carolyn working at all?

01-00:11:16 Maggard: No, no, no. We have one car. We bought a little house in Mountain View, and some of the time I walked back and forth to school just because we only had the one car. While I’m teaching at Los Altos. They didn’t get paid in that district for coaching. I was an assistant football coach and track coach.

I went to the principal and said, “I don’t want to be director of student activities.” Because I was director of student activities, I was in the parking lot early in the morning, dances, all kinds of other student activities. He said, “Well what do you want to do?” This guy was a Stanford graduate, great guy, and I said, “I’m twenty-eight years old, I’ve got two kids. If I don’t make the Olympic team in ’68, I’m finished. So I’ve got to try to make—this is my last shot. I’m going to try to make the Olympic team, and so I’ve got to get serious to do this.” To make a long story short he said fine, okay, we’ll do that. Made the Olympic team, the trials were up at—

01-00:12:45 Cummins: You gave up teaching then?

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01-00:12:47 Maggard: Yes.

01-00:12:48 Cummins: So that was a very big deal.

01-00:12:49 Maggard: Yes, it was. A lot of those kids I still get e-mails from, I still get phone calls from. After the Olympics I went back to Cal. Sam Bell was the head track coach.

01-00:13:07 Cummins: And you came in fifth, right?

01-00:13:09 Maggard: I was fifth, yes, and was second in the trials. That was one of the few times I beat Randy [James Randel] Matson, who was the world record holder at the time. And that was the fifth longest throw in history at that time. I came back to Cal in ’68 after the Olympics as an assistant coach. Sam Bell left after I was there for a year and went to Indiana. And without going into a lot of detail, there was a lot of controversy around my becoming the head track coach. And I mean a lot of politics. Roger [W.] Heyns was the chancellor at that time, and Paul [W.] Brechler was really an absentee athletic director.

01-00:14:00 Cummins: I was reading in the Walter Byers’ book, [Unsportsmanlike Conduct: Exploiting College Athletes] where he talks about you. You read that book?

01-00:14:08 Maggard: Yes.

01-00:14:09 Cummins: And he talked about an Isaac Curtis and Larry Brumsey controversy when Brechler had recommended just taking the NCAA sanctions and Bob Kerley said, “No, we’re going to fight it.”

01-00:14:24 Maggard: That’s exactly right.

01-00:14:24 Cummins: So a little bit on that would be good, without getting into too much of the details.

01-00:14:32 Maggard: Well, first of all, my becoming the head track coach was a big political deal, without going through the entire story.

01-00:14:39 Cummins: Right.

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01-00:14:41 Maggard: Isaac Curtis came in. He was recruited for football. He was a great athlete. As it turned out, none of us, other than I assume the football staff, knew that he had not taken the SAT.

01-00:14:57 Cummins: Oh, that was the issue.

01-00:14:59 Maggard: Yes, that was the issue, that he not taken the SAT. So anyhow he came out for track that year, and at that time I was the head track coach.

01-00:15:13 Cummins: Oh, you were.

01-00:15:13 Maggard: Yes, I had recruited Eddie Hart. We got to the NCAA, we win the NCAA, we go one, two in the hundred yard dash. Eddie wins it, Isaac Curtis is second. Now, prior to that time it became known that Isaac Curtis had not taken the SAT, all right?

01-00:15:39 Cummins: Prior to that?

01-00:15:40 Maggard: Just a little prior to that, but the University said we are not going to listen to the NCAA. There was a group of alums who had a lawsuit against the NCAA. Paul Brechler and Walter Byers actually were pretty good friends. Paul had been the athletic director at Iowa and he’d been a commissioner. Paul never did get into the whole Cal scene. I mean, he just could not adapt to Berkeley and the campus. Paul asked me to go back to the NCAA with him, which I did. We flew all night, met Walter Byers. It was the first time I’d ever met Walter. We were sitting in the Muehlebach Hotel in the morning, there in Kansas City, and he walked up behind us. Paul tells me “Look, I want to go to them before they come here, because there are lots of problems in our program. There are lots of problems.” He said, “I want to go and see if we can talk about this.” So we met with Walter Byers for, I don’t know, three or four hours that morning. Came back and the “institution”— Arleigh Williams was part of this. Arleigh, Bob Kerley, Roger [Heyns] was the Chancellor at the time and “the university” took a very hard line against the NCAA, and it was a huge mistake.

01-00:17:34 Cummins: Okay, that’s what I wanted to clarify.

01-00:17:35 Maggard: It was a huge mistake.

01-00:17:39 Cummins: Where were you personally on this issue?

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01-00:17:41 Maggard: Oh, I was in favor of the NCAA. Brechler had been an absentee athletic director. He was never there.

01-00:17:52 Cummins: Why was that?

01-00:17:54 Maggard: Oh, he had a strong dislike for Berkeley as well as our campus..

01-00:17:56 Cummins: Oh, really?

01-00:17:57 Maggard: And he was really a short-timer.

01-00:18:01 Cummins: But you agreed with him that we should just take these sanctions and move on?

01-00:18:06 Maggard: Absolutely. And actually Robley [C.] Williams, who was a faculty rep., also took a hard line against the NCAA.

01-00:18:18 Cummins: Interesting.

01-00:18:19 Maggard: Robley, Arleigh and Kerley got into a real shouting match with Walter Byers, and I mean it was vindictive.

01-00:18:26 Cummins: Was it by phone?

01-00:18:27 Maggard: Oh, this was in person.

01-00:18:29 Cummins: In person.

01-00:18:29 Maggard: This was in person.

01-00:18:30 Cummins: So there was another meeting after that?

01-00:18:32 Maggard: Yeah, and I didn’t go to that. I was not involved in any of that part of it.

01-00:18:37 Cummins: I see.

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01-00:18:37 Maggard: Any of that part of it in terms of what the University, the position they were taking, because there were a group of alums on the outside that said this is completely unfair. Isaac Curtis can do the work; he’s proven that he can do the work. So they brought a lawsuit against the NCAA, which I thought was a huge mistake. Paul Brechler left, and was the acting Athletic Director, and they gave the sanctions, and as I recall this was really highly unusual. The entire Athletic Department—usually what they’ll do is sanction the sport—they put the entire Athletic Department on probation for four years.

01-00:19:31 Cummins: Wow.

01-00:19:32 Maggard: Four years, it was unbelievable.

01-00:19:35 Cummins: Did they limit scholarships?

01-00:19:37 Maggard: Oh, they just—you couldn’t be on television, and they required many changes to our compliance policies. And they also took the track championship away because they nullified the points of Isaac Curtis. The department was under great scrutiny, and nationally they made Berkeley appear to be an out-of- control, renegade university.

01-00:19:50 Cummins: So this was a huge deal?

01-00:19:52 Maggard: It was a huge deal. When Paul left and they started “investigating” the entire program, they fired Ray Willsey.

01-00:20:13 Cummins: What happened to the lawsuit?

01-00:20:13 Maggard: It was still on. The lawsuit was still in effect. It was a restraining order against the NCAA.

01-00:20:19 Cummins: But they could impose these sanctions?

01-00:20:21 Maggard: Oh, yeah. They imposed them, but they wanted to go through the legal process and beat the NCAA. They fired Ray Willsey because of the whole football situation—

01-00:20:42 Cummins: And that was because the football situation was—

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01-00:20:45 Maggard: Oh, they had a lot of NCAA violations.

01-00:20:46 Cummins: In what, recruiting?

01-00:20:47 Maggard: Oh, everything, paid kids, everything, you name it.

01-00:20:50 Cummins: So none of that went away that was—so this was like ’69 or so?

01-00:20:55 Maggard: This would have been ’69.

01-00:21:00 Cummins: Because they went through all that with the Pacific Coast Conference in ’59 right?

01-00:21:05 Maggard: Yeah.

01-00:21:05 Cummins: In ’58 and—

01-00:21:06 Maggard: Before that, I think ’57.

01-00:21:09 Cummins: Yeah, in that era.

01-00:21:11 Maggard: But they really hit Cal hard. So Ray was fired. Roger Heyns left the university at that time. Al Bowker came in as chancellor.

01-00:21:33 Cummins: Nineteen-seventy, I think.

01-00:21:34 Maggard: Yeah, 1970. But Roger Heyns was still there when we won the NCAA, and as a matter of fact he was at the airport when we came back from Des Moines after winning the NCAA championship. So Al came in, Bob Kerley was his Vice Chancellor of Administration, and they’d asked me to become athletic director, and that again was a big political deal.

01-00:22:02 Cummins: So by that time you were like thirty-one?

01-00:22:05 Maggard: Thirty-two. Yeah, this was 1972.

01-00:22:09 Cummins: Oh, okay ’72.

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01-00:22:09 Maggard: In 1972. And when I became the athletic director I went to the administration and said, “This is a huge mistake. You cannot fight these people. We need to work to get on the inside, we need to get on committees, we need to be a part of the NCAA. I will tell you that they will rip this place apart, and this is something that you will never win. You will never win.” I don’t remember what year it was, but I became a close friend of Walter Byers. To this day he and I are good friends.

01-00:22:49 Cummins: Could you help me out if I wanted to talk to him?

01-00:22:54 Maggard: Yes, I could probably get his phone number. He’s become a recluse.

01-00:23:00 Cummins: I know!

01-00:23:00 Maggard: He’s out on his ranch outside of Kansas City. I haven’t seen him for quite a while.

01-00:23:09 Cummins: Well, I’d just like to hear what his views were.

01-00:23:12 Maggard: Well, here is the kind of guy that Walter was. Walter was never the guy that made the decision. Walter did all the stuff behind; he was the guy that pulled the strings. The NCAA council did, the infractions committee did. But Walter was a tough guy. He was a tough guy on this stuff.

01-00:23:39 Cummins: It seemed like that.

01-00:23:40 Maggard: Oh, he was. No, he was very tough. And because of the fact that they had just denigrated him personally, Robley Williams and the others. I said, “We’ve got to work to become a part of the NCAA. We’ve got to get on committees. So along the way I got on committees of the NCAA, Bob [Robert F.] Steidel became the faculty rep. The first thing that we tried to do was, we need to get on the good side. We need to be on the inside and show the NCAA that we’re doing things the right way. And so that’s essentially what happened. And Walter and I became good friends. And so we worked, we finally got—I can’t remember the details of how we got off the sanctions, but they lifted the sanctions.

01-00:24:55 Cummins: Do you know where those files are?

01-00:24:58 Maggard: I don’t.

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01-00:24:59 Cummins: I’ll have to track that down. They must be in the archives somewhere. Because we didn’t start—

01-00:25:03 Maggard: They have to be.

01-00:25:04 Cummins: They have to be.

01-00:25:08 Maggard: Yeah, they have to be.

01-00:25:08 Cummins: But that is really interesting.

01-00:25:12 Maggard: Well, this to me was a time at Cal that was very interesting because of the fact that Cal in some way wanted to be part of the big-time athletic scene and at the same time was fighting—Cal has always had the reputation of being an activist against the establishment. The NCAA was the establishment. After I became the athletic director—Marcus [L.] Plant was the president of the NCAA at that time and he was a faculty rep. at Michigan. We had all of our meetings at the Rose Bowl. First meeting I ever went to, Marcus Plant was there, and we were in the restroom together, and he’d been drinking. And he cussed, he said, “I want to tell you, you guys can piss up a rope. You will never get off probation the way you’re acting”. I said, “Marcus, wait a minute, wait just a minute.” And he said, “The way you people have acted.” He went on and on and on. Don Canham was the athletic director, and Don was a great athletic director at Michigan. He’s one of the best I’ve ever known.

01-00:26:51 Cummins: So he put their program on the map, right?

01-00:26:54 Maggard: Oh, yeah, yeah. Don absolutely, he hired [Bo] Schembechler, that whole bit.

01-00:27:01 Cummins: TV, the whole thing.

01-00:27:02 Maggard: Yes. Don and I had become good friends because Don had been the track coach at Michigan prior to becoming athletic director, and as a matter of fact he talked to me about becoming a track coach at Michigan at one point when he was the athletic director. So I called Don, and I said, “Don, your faculty rep.” I said, “Let me tell you something, I’m going to knock him on his butt. If he ever does what he did to me—he was drunk and he ripped us apart.” And he said, “Dave, I’ll talk to him, but normally he’s a good guy.” “Don, you’ve got to get him squared away, because he’s going to kill us.” So we tried to work it that way.

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01-00:28:02 Cummins: Now let me just ask you to go back a little bit. You go through the—I don’t know if you read the book by the way, Roses from the Ashes:[Breakup and Rebirth in Pacific Coast Intercollegiate Athletics] by [Glenn T.] Seaborg and Ray Colvig. Remember Ray?

01-00:28:14 Maggard: Yeah, I didn’t read it. I don’t think I’ve read it.

01-00:28:18 Cummins: I’ll have to see if I can’t get that for you. It’s the whole period when Seaborg is the faculty athletic director, and it’s quite detailed but very interesting for somebody on the inside.

01-00:28:32 Maggard: Brutus told me a lot about that.

01-00:28:36 Cummins: The history is really pretty good, up until ’60, ’61. I had the view, based on that book, that Cal was trying to hold the line vis-à-vis the “amateur” status of athletics. So even though the Pacific Coast Conference, I think in ’56, approved scholarships, athletic scholarships—

01-00:29:04 Maggard: But you had to work.

01-00:29:08 Cummins: Yeah, that’s right you had to work.

01-00:29:08 Maggard: You had to work ten hours a week.

01-00:29:11 Cummins: Yeah, but there was something in this book about [Robert G.] Sproul and then Clark Kerr saying, “But we’re not going to allow UCLA and Berkeley to grant these ‘academic’ scholarships for athletes even though they are now permissible in the Pacific Coast Conference.”

1-00:29:27 Maggard: Yeah.

01-00:29:38 Cummins: So, is that true? In other words, would you characterize Cal, just based on what you know, as trying to hold the line? Because what happened then, I’m very interested whether that wasn’t really the case. In other words, were people kind of across the board, whether it was Pacific Coast Conference or Big Ten or whatever, everybody was trying to cut corners? What happened from ‘60 to ’70? Because you were a student then, and an athlete in a key position—and I wonder what your take was on all that at that point in time?

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01-00:30:17 Maggard: Well, I don’t think there’s any question about the fact that the Pacific Coast Conference—everybody was “cheating” in the fifties, everybody. Those were the days when Hugh McElhenny was up at Washington, and Washington had all these problems. UCLA had these—Ronnie Knox came to Cal as a freshman. Interestingly enough, Paul Larson came in, and Paul and I went to the same high school; he and I were from the same town. Ronnie Knox transfers to UCLA after his first year here. He was the most celebrated in the country; his Dad was his “agent.” So people asked Ronnie, “Why did you go to UCLA?” He said, “Because Cal promised me a car and then they didn’t give it to me.” They were sanctioning everybody and the conference ended up breaking up. Then it became the AAWU [Athletic Association of Western Universities]; there were five universities. But there were things like, if you remember at USC, UCLA, the great running back Jon Arnett and others. They made them sit out five games, each one of these guys. And you could choose the time, either the first five or the latter part. So, there was a lot of turmoil within, but essentially what was taking place then, John, is that alumni in most of these schools were running the athletic programs. Now, interestingly enough, Cal, at that time, was not under the University.

01-00:32:14 Cummins: Yeah, it was under the ASUC [Associated Students of the University of California].

01-00:32:15 Maggard: It was under the ASUC. So alumni had a big part in what was taking place in all of the athletic programs around the conference. And I think because of the academic part, for some of the schools in the— was a coach down at UCLA at the time. They really had it going, and USC, and of course Cal did too. Pappy’s [Waldorf] days, the whole bit. So it was one of times that everybody, it was sort of like everybody’s doing it, so we can’t compete unless we do it. I’d have to say that Cal was right there with everybody else. I think that Cal began to fight that and wanted to bring it back the other way. And so they went through a period of time of trying to adjust and all of this. And Glenn Seaborg then became the Chancellor here, and he was the Chancellor when I was here in school for a period of time.

01-00:33:41 Cummins: Yes, for a couple years.

01-00:33:42 Maggard: Yeah, and by the way you know Glenn and I became close friends, and for a long time after, even after I left the university. Cal wanted to pull it back, but they were having difficulty competing, and so Cal went through that real lean period of time.

01-00:34:08 Cummins: It was very mediocre.

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01-00:34:09 Maggard: Yeah, and Clark Kerr says, “We’re not going to do this, we’re not going to be in big-time athletics.” Those teams at that time—and Marv Levy had no chance in terms of competing against these other places. He didn’t have one special action admit that I can recall on that team. And I think Marv ends up winning, I don’t know—

01-00:34:37 Cummins: Half, less than half.

01-00:34:39 Maggard: Oh, less than half. And Marv came here because of Glenn Seaborg. Glenn was in Alamosa. Marv was at University of New Mexico. Marv had a master’s and he was a Phi Beta Kappa, so Glenn Seaborg says that’s the kind of guy that should be at Cal. So that’s what happened.

They go through that period of time of—we’re not going to play this game that everybody else is playing, and Clark [Kerr] was maybe what we should do is just, all these universities, University of California campuses play among themselves and that’s it. And so there was a push and pull with the alumni and the public. No, we want to go back to the good old days and this and that. So they went through a number of people. Marv was out of it and they get rid of him, and Ray Willsey comes in. Ray had some real success on the field, but it was also at that period of time when the Isaac Curtis case came about and other recruiting violations. And there was this cry from the outside of, “We need to get back to the good old days, and we need to win.” , of course, had great success in basketball when he was the basketball coach. And then Rene Herrerias, not a lot. He became the basketball coach, and during that period of time of the sixties, it was not only this going back and forth with the academic stuff, but it was also all of this other stuff going on on campus. In other words all the demonstrations, the kids with moustaches and afros— what kind of position is Cal going to take on this stuff? So Rene took a hard line, and he kicked some guys off the team, and they had protests.

It was at that period of time—to go back—when I came on campus as an assistant track coach. Sam Bell took a very hard line, and he had a very difficult time, and that’s the reason he left Cal. He did not like the politics, he didn’t like the activism, he didn’t like any of that. So he goes to Indiana, and I become the track coach. And so the part about the afros and all that kind of stuff, I didn’t care anything about that. All I was concerned about is you’ve got to come to school, you’ve got to do your deal, and don’t make any excuses. I don’t care if you have a moustache or whatever. So we go through that period of time. When I became the Athletic Director we started trying to build this thing up, all right?

Now, by this time Al Bowker and Bob Kerley are “in charge” of athletics, and Bowker and Kerley were the ones that convinced me to take the job as the Athletic Director. We had had success in track, plus I think the other part,

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John, is that I was doing all these big track meets. The Athens Invitational, the Kennedy Games. We started the Kennedy Games in Berkeley. We had the USA/USSR meet here. All these things went well; they were managed well. And so it appeared that I knew what I was doing in terms of managing and budgets. So they asked me to become the Athletic Director. The first five years were really tough.

Mike [Michael K.] White was kind of the golden boy—he had been here with , and he played during that period of time. He had also played for . And then he went to Stanford with John [R.] Ralston, and John had success at Stanford. And so Mike was the guy that they’d zeroed in on, but they thought he was going to get the job at Stanford, so they didn’t think he would come. So here’s what happened. Bob Kerley and Arleigh Williams called me into the office after I’d become Athletic Director and said, “Do you know Mike White?” And I said, “Yeah, sure, I know Mike White.” They said, “Can you convince him to come to Cal?” And I said, “Probably, I probably can.” So they said, “Well, see if you can convince Mike to come here as a football coach.” So I called Mike, and I went down to Palo Alto and we met, and Mike says, “Okay, I’ll take the job.” Now Bob Kerley was very involved in a lot of the side stuff that went on in athletics. He had a great interest, and as a consequence he wanted to be very involved. So Mike comes in, and Mike is a very charismatic guy. He was also a pretty gosh darn good football coach, very mercurial in terms of emotions. And in the beginning we didn’t win very much.

Now that was about the time that the Golden Bear Athletic Fund started. There were five; those were the guys that brought the lawsuit. So they had this thing going when I became the Athletic Director. About once a week they would call me over to San Francisco and tell me this is what you should be doing. They weren’t raising any real money. They said the Athletic Department needs somebody on the outside to do this, and so they had started this. So as time went along, for a very relatively short period of time, I went over to San Francisco with some frequency. Their comments were always the same. “you’ve got to do this, you’ve got to do this, and you’ve got to do this.” I went to Al Bowker, and I said, “Al, this thing is not working. I thought I worked for you; these guys all think I work for them. I don’t mind taking advice, but this thing is screwy, plus the fact that there’s no money being raised. I think it ought to be cut out, and we’ll start our own fundraising.” He said, “Do it.” Now I said, ‘There’s going to be a lot of politicking. And you’re going to get a lot of flack, and I’m going to get a lot of flack over this.” He said, “Go ahead and do it.”

So I go over one day, and Tom Mulcahy and these guys said, “Hey Dave, now we’re not going to be doing this stuff unless you start doing this, and this, and this.”

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01-00:43:00 Cummins: Who else was on that, do you remember who was on there?

01-00:43:01 Maggard: Yeah, it was Stu [Stuart M.] Gordon, and Stu was one of the easy guys on it. He just wanted to help the University. Len Renick was on it. It was the other guy that was a crew guy, Tom Mulcahy.

01-00:43:16 Cummins: Rogers?

01-00:43:19 Maggard: No, no not Rogers. This was Tom Mulcahy. Oh, let’s see who else was—oh, the other guy was the attorney over in San Francisco, Jay Jacobus. Let’s see if there was a fifth one, because I think were five. But Len and Tom and Jay were probably the most active of the group.

01-00:43:59 Cummins: Is it the same Stu Gordon or somebody else?

01-00:44:01 Maggard: Yeah, same Stu. He and I were at Cal together. Same Stu, the attorney over in San Francisco.

01-00:44:08 Cummins: Exactly.

01-00:44:08 Maggard: So, in one of our weekly meetings Len said, “If you’re not going to do what we tell you to do, we will not fundraise.” I said, “Okay, then I’ll take it over.” And I left. I come across the bridge, and Renick calls and says, “Hey, you pulled a fast one on us.” And I said, “Len, you guys said you didn’t want to do it.” And so he said, “You really tried to trick us.” I said, “I didn’t try to trick you.” So these guys were just livid; I mean livid. And that’s when I started the Bear Backers.

01-00:44:50 Cummins: Amazing.

01-00:44:51 Maggard: And so I sit in the office one day, and Margot Smith [Chmel]—who just passed away recently, and I spoke at her memorial—she was working there. And we sat in a staff meeting, and Herb Stansbury was in that meeting as well, and I said, “We’ve got to start our own fundraising out of the department. We’re going to call it Bear Backers. Margot, what I want you to do is I want you to write to all these different schools. When we go on football trips, I want you to visit the athletic programs. I want you to look at all of these places around the country, how they’re doing these things, and then we’ll customize it to how Cal is doing it.”

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So we started the Bear Backers. Now fortunately, John, we were successful. Had we fallen on our face, they would have really ripped me. So the thing just went like that quickly, very quickly, and we got serious about it. Mike White started winning, but we were having a lot of problems. Bob Steidel, the faculty rep., was really fighting with Mike. We all were at that point, but he was winning. And then there was Chuck Muncie, who never went to class. We are still close friends; believe it or not, he came by at Houston when I was there. But anyhow, they now have had, from what I understand, the Muncie Rule there for a period of time, dealing with not going to class or performing academically.]

People begin to notice. We had other things within the department, and we got to a point to where I told Chuck, I said, “Chuck, I’m not going to go to bat for you.” He goes to Rod [Roderic] Park himself, he convinces Rod Park that he should be in summer school. Rod Park says “This is a smart guy this is a smart kid, he goes to summer school, make his grades, he’s eligible.” Now, we’re having all—the faculty is really upset; they’re calling me this and that. So we go through this period of time and—

01-00:47:37 Cummins: Now where’s the NCAA in this?

01-00:47:38 Maggard: The NCAA, we’re off of probation.

01-00:47:41 Cummins: You’re off probation.

01-00:47:42 Maggard: We’re off probation by this time. Now we’re working hard on the NCAA committees. I’m on some committees, and Steidel is becoming more involved. And Bob was good. He was a very straight guy, a very, very straight guy. Now, in the meantime you know Mike was going to Bob Kerley a lot—a lot.

01-00:48:12 Cummins: Did you have to report any of this to the NCAA? Was it a reportable, was the Chuck Muncie thing reported?

01-00:48:17 Maggard: We had one thing that we did have to report. There were some violations that we had to report, and we reported it through the PAC-10 office. And they actually sanctioned us, nobody knew this, but they took some scholarships away. It never became public.

01-00:48:41 Cummins: Interesting. Who was the head of the PAC-10 then? That wasn’t [Tom] Hansen was it?

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01-00:48:42 Maggard: No, no, it was Wiles Hallock. And David Price was the guy that was kind of the honcho on the compliance stuff. But nobody ever knew about that; it didn’t become public.

But after the Stanford game, I guess it was a week after—actually we’d lost, but we were right there. We’re winning eight games, seven games. We were co-champions one year with UCLA. Mike comes in and he said, “I want a new contract.” And I said, “Well, we need to talk about that, Mike.” And he said, “Look, I want a new contract. You’re playing this whole game wrong. We have got to do what everybody else is doing in order to win.” I said, “You know what, Mike, that’s why you’re not getting a new contract.” He said, “You’ve got to be crazy. There is no way that I’m not going to get a new contract.” I said, ‘No, you’re not going to get a new contract until we get some things squared away.” And he said, “You can’t compete like this; I’m telling you that right now.” So I go to Al and he said, “Fire him, go ahead. Go ahead.”

01-00:50:17 Cummins: So Al was good—

01-00:50:19 Maggard: Al was very good. No, Al was—Al never said anything on the outside. But I said, “Al, this thing is going to just blow up in our face.” And he said, “Look, we’ve got all kinds of problems with the faculty, all this stuff on the outside.” And he said, “What do you think you should do?” And I said, “I think Mike is going to have to go.”

01-00:50:44 Cummins: Was Bob in that meeting?

01-00:50:46 Maggard: Bob was in that meeting.

01-00:50:52 Cummins: And did he support that?

01-00:50:53 Maggard: Yes, he did.

01-00:50:55 Cummins: Maybe reluctantly?

01-00:50:56 Maggard: He was very much for Mike going. He had a difficult time with Mike.

01-00:51:17 Maggard: I’ll tell you what it was. I think the thing that really did Mike in, in terms of Al’s feeling, was the unrest from the faculty. Now, there was one other, I think, big incident that really got Al really ticked off. And I don’t know if you

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remember this, but there were two athletes that had been recruited from LA; they were African American athletes. Went to Ken [Kenneth G.] Goode, who was an Assistant Vice Chancellor. And Ken Goode gave them “a credit card,” a university credit card to get all of these things at the bookstore. And as I recall, it was a big deal. I think the Daily Cal did a bunch of stuff on it. It was a huge deal. Well, Al was really ticked about this. So Al’s feeling was that the wrong guys were being recruited. There was beginning to be a lot of embarrassment. Faculty were not happy about things; we had these kinds of things publically. And this was somebody out of the Chancellor’s office, and Al was really embarrassed.

01-00:52:47 Cummins: He worked for Bob Kerley.

01-00:52:48 Maggard: Ken had given this approval to—I can’t remember but it was like a couple thousand bucks or so out of the bookstore; you can look it up. Al, as you probably recall, was a guy that didn’t say a lot, but you also knew that when he did he meant it. He meant what he said, and so it was one of those things when you listen carefully because he didn’t say much. I thought Al was a great administrator, I really did. In today’s world everybody is looking for a different kind of guy, but Al was a great administrator. But I think those are the things that—it was just an accumulation of things that the faculty began to really put the pressure on, and the admissions office the same way. So they became very unhappy about the football program and the pressure that was being exerted on the administration about it, and so Mike was let go.

01-00:54:18 Cummins: So he had to be shocked, I guess?

01-00:54:21 Maggard: Oh, “shocked” was an understatement. I mean he was absolutely livid. He had all the players sign a petition; they came to my office. And I’ll tell you the toughest part about it. His kid and my kid played on the same basketball team at Acalanes High School. They were both on a—

01-00:54:42 Cummins: Is that Dave?

01-00:54:43 Maggard: Yeah, David. David and Chris played together on the really good Acalanes basketball teams. And we lived in the same town, and we had a lot of the same friends. Now, Mike had a lot of friends, alumni friends, people that he’d been in school with, and the whole bit. And a lot of that crowd out in Lafayette were people that he had been in school [with] at the same time. That was a tough time. That was really a tough time.

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01-00:55:20 Cummins: At some point I want you to talk about the role of the Athletic Director, which is very much unappreciated: the relationship between the Athletic Director and the football coach (because the football coach carries a lot of burden in terms of bringing in the money), the alums, and then the administration and the faculty.

01-00:55:58 Maggard: No, it’s true, and this is especially true if you have a football/basketball coach who is really winning, really winning. Because in so many cases—if you looked at a place like Kentucky right now, they hire John Calipari after he’s coached at two Universities where their wins have been nullified. But you know what? The alums at Kentucky are all over that. It doesn’t make any difference to them, he’s got to win. John is being wooed by the pros. Mitch Barnhart, the AD, has to give him a new, big contract because of the pressure from the outside, and the pressure’s on the presidents too, because the pressure goes to the presidents as well.

01-00:56:51 Cummins: Yes, it does.

01-00:56:54 Maggard: So the President is going to get involved in many of those cases in the fray, because they’re going to say hey, the Athletic Director is not giving these guys enough support, the resources are not there. So you get into a situation that on the one hand—and you need—I tell young guys who want to be athletic directors you need to understand this: the success is going to be somebody else’s, the failures are going to be yours. That’s just going to be the way it is because these are people that you’re pumping up. You’ve got to pump them up because it’s important to get people to come to the games and all. And you’ve got to tell people on the outside this is the greatest guy in the world. This guy is a great coach, he’s a great person, that whole bit. So when the bad stuff begins—and I think this is one of the reasons that presidents find—I think that [Robert M.] Berdahl found that at Texas, when he was at Texas.

01-00:58:05 Cummins: Two hundred calls a day, I think it was, after the football team would lose a game.

01-00:58:07 Maggard: Yeah, probably. And Texas is one of those places, University of Texas is a state university, and that’s a place where people are really involved and they’ve got to win, they’ve got to win. And so the athletic director is going to get it. He gets it a lot, and then it goes right on up to the president or the chancellor. So it’s one of things you just need to understand before you take that role on, because you’re going to be the mediator with the coaches, the president, and the faculty on the campus, because they’re going to look at you and say, “Why are you allowing all of this stuff? Why are you letting this stuff

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go?” And then the other part of it is oftentimes the athletic director doesn’t have really the “power.” He, in many cases, is not given the power because the president says I need to approve this stuff, whatever you’re doing. So that’s where you are in terms of an athletic director, and so you walk the line of one; you have to put a program out here that people appreciate, especially in the big time, especially in a Division I-A program. What the Cal people never could understand is that UCLA always was way over their budget, not today, but during that era when they won a lot in all sports. And Chuck [Chancellor Charles E.] Young was a big proponent of athletics, and so he let them spend over, and forgave it as a loan.

01-00:59:52 Cummins: And even though they say they’re not.

01-00:59:59 Maggard: The athletic directors all told me—Pete Dalis, J.D. Morgan—they told me, because I was close friends with those guys. And essentially what they said was, they’re going to pay it back sometime. That was it, and so it was forgiven. And it came out of auxiliary funds, parking, dorms, that kind of stuff. So the Cal people always complained about that, and the coaches always complained about it. And here’s the other part of it, John, that’s a critical part. We had, for a very long period of time, the feeling that you’re not going to pay a football coach more than what the faculty people are being paid. Well, there is no way that you can compete on the outside with that. And it’s gotten out of control; it’s gone wacko. But the thing about it is, in order to be competitive in hiring people, you have to look at the marketplace. And this is where Mike Heyman and I were always at odds.

01-01:01:12 Cummins: Let’s go back now, let’s go back because we were right at, okay so Mike White goes.

01-01:01:17 Maggard: Mike White goes. Bob Kerley and I sit down and looked at the entire football program. was an assistant, and he was being interviewed by the air force at the time, and we had not many people that were interested in the job. Very, very few people, really very few people interested in the job because of—everybody was making a lot more money in all of the other places. And the alumni expect you, when you hire somebody, to hire somebody that has some real credibility and visibility. And if you’re going to hire that guy you’re going to be paying him. We never did—until I hired Bruce Snyder, we never were competitive with any one of those coaches. So Roger comes in and we go to the Garden State Bowl, but after that not much, and people are unhappy.

01-01:02:22 Cummins: So where are we now in terms of the year?

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01-01:02:26 Maggard: This would have been probably, what was this, this would have been 19—

01-01:02:31 Cummins: Still in the seventies?

01-01:02:34 Maggard: We’re either in the late seventies or early eighties.

01-01:02:38 Cummins: Mike becomes Chancellor in 1980.

01-01:02:42 Maggard: Is that when he became Chancellor?

01-01:02:43 Cummins: 1980.

01-01:02:44 Maggard: All right, it would have been before that because Al was Chancellor when we went to the Garden State Bowl.

01-01:02:51 Cummins: Okay, so it’s probably around ’78—so Theder comes in.

01-01:02:53 Maggard: ‘78-’79, yeah. Theder comes in, and his record is very mediocre. He is released, and now there’s this big deal about who we’re going to hire.

01-01:03:06 Cummins: How many sports did we have at that point in time?

01-01:03:20 Maggard: I think it was twelve or something like that. In the beginning, too, the other part that we had—we didn’t have a fundraising program at the very beginning, the student fees were being cut back, and we were on probation. We had no television money. So it was a tough time, but see, this is one of the reasons, John—this may be the reason I got the job because I’m not sure anybody else wanted it! And it was one of those things that I would have crawled on my hands and knees to take. So immediately when Al said, “Do you want to take the job?” I said, “Yeah, I’ll do it, I’ll do it.” And I didn’t know what I was getting into, but I didn’t care. It was one of those things that whatever it is I’m going to do it. The first five years were just—were unbelievable. But anyhow, we go through that period of time, we finally, we’re finally getting out of that. Roger goes, now Mike is the Chancellor at this particular time.

01-01:04:33 Cummins: When Theder leaves, he’s Chancellor?

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01-01:04:34 Maggard: Yeah, and so now who do we hire? Very few people, I mean very few people are interested in the job. Joe Kapp really wants the job, and everybody on the outside is pushing for him. The alums, I mean, everybody in the country is calling for him. And I think that was the thing that turned it. So Mike said, “I want to sit down with him, let’s sit down with him and talk.” So we met down at the Marriott and it was Mike and I think Bob Kerley and myself and Joe. People like Don [Donald G.] Tronstein, people that were pretty much involved with the University, all very much supported Joe, and I think the guy that really pushed it over was Pete Newell. Pete Newell called Mike Heyman. He had called me before, but he called Mike and said, “Hey, this is the guy that you should hire.” And Joe and I had been friends for years; like I said, it goes back to the time when he recruited me to Cal. And so Joe wanted the job, I felt that Joe could do the job, and so Mike gave the approval. He said, “If that’s who you want to hire, go ahead and hire him.”

So Joe comes in, and his first year he’s Coach of the Year of the conference. Joe could have been very successful. The problem that happened at that time is that assistant coaches that were really good left and went to other places. In some cases to the pros, or some places that were paying a lot more money. I think the thing that was Joe’s demise as much as anything else was the fact that there wasn’t as strong a supporting cast around him. And Mike Heyman and Mac [Vice Chancellor Watson] Laetsch became very unhappy with Joe. Now, Joe is a very competitive guy, and it started slipping down after that first year. I think people were still very anxious, and Cal needs to be back in the Rose Bowl, and on and on and on. Well, now, Mike Heyman I like a lot.

01-01:07:23 Cummins: Yeah, I think he feels the same way about you.

01-01:07:26 Maggard: Yeah, I like him.

01-01:07:27 Cummins: He said, “We had a lot of disagreements and fights but I always liked Dave.”

01-01:07:31 Maggard: Well, philosophically—

01-01:07:32 Cummins: Exactly.

01-01:07:35 Maggard: —philosophically, at that time there was a big difference between what Mike felt and what I felt. Mike would have been an ideal Ivy League president, chancellor. Mike was, first of all, he was a terrific chancellor, with the exception of—I always viewed Mike as being very much in tune with the faculty, and what the faculty really felt, Mike felt. He had credibility with the faculty, and he wanted to keep credibility with the faculty. And as a

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consequence he was very much opposed to big-time athletics, and he said that, and he said it publically, and he said it at NCAA conventions. And our coaches were very—I mean it was like, wow.

01-01:08:22 Cummins: We have to talk more about that because that was—

Maggard: Whoa! That is one that’s a good—it’s a funny story.

01-01:08:29 Cummins: The ’87 convention.

01-01:08:31 Maggard: Oh yeah, in Dallas, and I said, “Mike, you give that speech in Dallas in football country? This is not a good time to do it.”

01-01:08:41 Cummins: Now had you seen the speech?

01-01:08:43 Maggard: I saw the speech.

01-01:08:44 Cummins: You saw it before? Because you had to be there.

01-01:08:45 Maggard: I saw it the night before. I went to dinner with Mike, Chuck Young, and there was one other guy.

01-01:08:54 Cummins: He showed it to you then?

01-01:08:55 Maggard: He showed it to me.

01-01:08:56 Cummins: Okay, because I—

01-01:08:56 Maggard: Yeah I saw it—

01-01:08:58 Cummins: Pat Hayashi and I helped write that speech.

01-01:09:01 Maggard: Yeah, I saw it. I saw it the night before.

01-01:09:03 Cummins: Okay, you saw it the night before. But you know when he got up to give that speech, I don’t know if you heard this story, but he was sitting right next to me, and they’re introducing him, and he leans over to me as he’s getting up and he says, “What the hell am I doing? Do I think I’m Don Quixote?” That

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was his comment as he’s stood up. And he was always a nervous guy. You know Mike.

01-01:09:30 Maggard: Yes.

01-01:09:33 Cummins: Exactly. Yeah, it was amazing. Oh god, I’ll tell you another story about that, but anyway go ahead with your story about this. This is interesting.

01-01:09:43 Maggard: But I don’t know how much Mike remembers about all this stuff, but anyhow I said, “Mike this is going to be a tough thing.”

01-01:09:53 Cummins: Oh, that’s interesting, because I never knew that.

01-01:09:59 Maggard: He said, “I’m against bowls. I’m against all these things.” Oh, the whole bit, the NCAA, the basketball tournament, too much class time lost, on and on and on, And he gets up and gives this speech. Well, I’d say that probably there is “nobody” there that agrees with much of what he said. There might be one or two. And so this is the amazing part, I go right up to my room and Bruce Snyder calls. And he says my gosh, Dave—

01-01:10:39 Cummins: None of them knew—you only saw it the night before?

01-01:10:41 Maggard: Nobody knew, nobody knew. They knew he was going to talk about the issues in the NCAA and the whole bit, but they didn’t know how it was going to be. So Bruce said, “He’s going to kill the program, what is going on?” I said, “Bruce, just relax, I mean we’re going to get this all sorted—

01-01:10:57 Cummins: Talk about a tough position for the AD! [laughs]

01-01:10:59 Maggard: That was exactly it. That was exactly the same situation. See, Mike and I were good friends except, what I would say is, “Mike, everybody else in the conference—they don’t believe this way. We’re competing against UCLA and USC, Washington, all of these other places. They don’t have the same philosophy. If you want to take us to the Ivy League, that’s one thing, but if we’re going to stay in this conference and compete we can’t do it this way.” Well, Mike believed in what he was doing, and I have to admire him for that. I have a great deal of respect for him, and I like him, but I told him time and time again, I said, “Mike this is not going to work this way. It just—we’re playing a much different game than everybody else. We don’t have the money, we don’t have the kind of emphasis,” and so on and so forth. We also

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got into the admissions thing, and that’s when we talked about the chips and all this.

01-01:12:06 Cummins: And he did approve that right?

01-01:12:08 Maggard: Yeah, he did.

01-01:12:13 Cummins: And he would also provide some financial support from time to time.

01-01:12:21 Maggard: No, exactly.

01-01:12:23 Cummins: Because [Athletic Director John] Kasser told me at one point when he was there, he said—and he was comparing [Chancellor Chang-Lin] Tien to Mike—

01-01:12:32 Maggard: Heyman.

01-01:12:32 Cummins: Yeah, and he said Tien is a big booster—

01-01:12:36 Maggard: Tien was a phony. He was a show horse. He helped push Bruce Snyder and [basketball coach] Lou Campanelli out. I never felt that Tien was a sincere guy. Mike is sincere, and he doesn’t—he’s not going to tell you something that he doesn’t believe. If he believes in something he’ll tell you, and he did.

Now, in going back to another situation, in terms of the relationship that I had with Mike—because we had these sessions. Bob Kerley was still here for a period of time with Mike, and we had these sessions of, “Mike, look—I love Cal, I want to be here, but I don’t want to lose. This is frustrating and the alumni are all over us, and the coaches feel that they don’t have a chance,” and this and that. So I now am offered the Virginia job.

01-01:13:44 Cummins: What year are we now? Bob was still there, so that had to be ’83?

01-01:13:48 Maggard: I can’t remember. Bob Kerley was still there, Kerley was still there.

01-01:13:51 Cummins: In ’82, ’83, somewhere in there.

01-01:13:53 Maggard: So I go back to Charlottesville. Frank [L.] Hereford, [Jr.] was the president there, a wonderful guy, a great guy. And I go through this whole thing and

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Gene Corrigan, who had been the athletic director there before and went to Notre Dame, calls me and says, “Dave, take the job. This guy is the greatest guy in the world. You’ll love working for him. The only reason I’m leaving— I’m Catholic, I’ve got nine hundred kids, and I’m going to go to Notre Dame.” So Frank and I talked about this, and we went through the whole bit. That evening he said, “I want you to come to the office tomorrow morning and we’re going to get this thing all squared away.” I walk in at eight o’clock and he’s got a letter outlining everything. Make a lot more money. You want tenure? We’ll get that, whatever period of time you want, the whole thing. And I’m sitting there, oh my gosh. I’m just sweating. And I take the paper and I said, “Frank, I’ve got to, I need to, I really need to think about this. I really appreciate—this is great, this is wonderful.” So I go back, and Bob Kerley calls me at the hotel, and he said, “Mike wants you to get your butt back here. He’s saying get on a plane and get home.”

01-01:15:25 Cummins: Amazing.

01-01:15:28 Maggard: He said Heyman wants you to get back here, and you’re not taking any job. So I get on the plane, and I come back, and we meet at the Chancellor’s house. We go to the University House as soon as I get back. And Mike says “Look, I’m telling you this right now, as long as I’m here you’re the Athletic Director. Now, do you understand that? You’re not going anyplace.”

01-01:16:00 Cummins: Amazing.

01-01:16:02 Maggard: Even with all of the other stuff he said, “You’re not going anyplace. Now, I can’t give you tenure, but I’m going to give you a rolling five-year contract. You’re going to stay here as long as I’m here.” So, I said, “Okay.” The hardest phone call I think I’ve ever made was telling Frank Hereford, because Virginia’s a great place. Charlottesville is a great place. Oh, and the deal was incredible. Carolyn and I were there at the Boar’s Head Inn and we just—I thought, “What do we do? I really don’t want to leave Cal.” At the same time I don’t know if we can win, that whole business. And this guy wants us, this guy at—you know the guy that showed me around a little bit, I think, is the chancellor there now and taught English 1A here.

01-01:17:05 Cummins: Really?

01-01:17:06 Maggard: Yeah.

01-01:17:06 Cummins: And what’s his name?

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01-01:17:08 Maggard: Casteel?

01-01:17:09 Cummins: Oh yeah, [John T.] Casteen.

01-01:17:09 Maggard: Casteen. He showed me around a little bit. I think he might have been the admissions director at that time, I think he was. He later went to Connecticut, and then he came back to Virginia. But anyhow, he was here, and I think he taught English 1A here. And it was really tearing me but, anyhow, I came back. Mike said, “You’re staying here,” and I said, “Okay, I’m staying here.”

01-01:17:40 Cummins: Did he give you an increase?

01-01:17:43 Maggard: It was very little. It wasn’t a big increase. But everybody made a big deal about it because I said I was staying. They thought I did, but I really didn’t. It was a small increase, but the part of it that he wanted to emphasize is—I’m going to give you a contract, you’re here, and you’re going to stay here, and that was it. So in spite of all that stuff of the alumni being all over you and the Chancellor saying you’re going to have to hold the line and the whole bit, and being loyal to him and all. But Mike never did phony it up. Mike always said, “This is what I believe.” He’d get very emotional sometimes, and we had our disagreements, and I said “Philosophically, Mike, I don’t agree with you.” And he said, “Well, that’s the way it is, that’s just the way it is.” So, that’s the way it was.

01-01:18:57 Cummins: Interesting.

01-01:18:57 Maggard: And that’s the part of the outside and the inside, with the alums, with the faculty, with the Chancellor. And so I said, “Okay, I’m going to stay at Cal, and we’re going to do the best we can.” Well, Joe ends up leaving, and it’s not that good, so I came to Mike and I said, “Mike, I don’t want to stay. I don’t want to stay unless we can get somebody that we can pay better than what we have. It won’t work, it just won’t work.”

01-01:19:44 Cummins: What were we paying?

01-01:19:45 Maggard: Oh, it was—

01-01:19:46 Cummins: Like Joe Kapp.

01-01:19:47 Maggard: Oh, I think he might have been making $75,000.

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01-01:19:51 Cummins: All right. Yeah, that’s really important, but it’s in terms of—

01-01:19:54 Maggard: I think it was all—

01-01:19:57 Cummins: Yeah, $75,000.

01-01:19:58 Maggard: I think that’s what it was, and I think that Roger had been making maybe about the same or even a little bit less. But we were never, we were never where—

01-01:20:14 Cummins: What were they paying, like say at UCLA or USC?

01-01:20:18 Maggard: These guys all had television and outside deals that were paying them quite a bit. Dick Vermeil, at the time—Terry Donahue. Terry Donahue had a huge annuity, and after he stayed ten years he got a big annuity that Chuck Young had arranged for him. They had those kind of deals. They had housing deals. And Bruce was the first one that—and I told Mike, “He can’t afford to do it. I’d like to do a housing deal, and here’s the way I’d like to do it.” Because I went down—who was the guy down at the, what was his name, the Hispanic fellow who was our audit guy or financial guy in the President’s Office?

01-01:21:11 Cummins: Oh, in the President’s Office. I know who you mean.

01-01:21:15 Maggard: Anyhow, he became president at New Mexico Highlands.

01-01:21:19 Cummins: Oh yeah, Selimo Rael?

01-01:21:20 Maggard: Selimo Rael.

01-01:21:21 Cummins: Yeah, he was our guy.

01-01:21:21 Maggard: All right, so we worked this deal out and I said, “Selimo, how can I work this out?” So I give Bruce a certain amount of money, and if he stays we forgive a certain amount for his house, so that he can get in a house. So we do that, and we pay him better.

01-01:21:42 Cummins: And he made—when he left he was making $250,000, I know that.

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01-01:21:45 Maggard: Okay, all right.

01-01:21:47 Cummins: So I don’t know what he made coming in, but I can find that out.

01-01:21:50 Maggard: Yeah, yeah, I can’t remember exactly what it was, but we tried to move it up, and then it was one of those situations that I could see that we were going to be good. He was doing a good job, and we had one year where we didn’t do so well, and I convinced everybody that he should have a five-year contract. People on the outside were a little like, “what you doing?” But as it turned out, it turned out really well, so I felt that we were really on the track of really moving it. And by this time, by this time Tien has come in. Tien is—it was kind of like “I love athletics,” blah, blah, blah. So that year the Copper Bowl wants us to come there. Well, you can remember that stuff so. So we had—

01-01:22:57 Cummins: Ron Wright was the Administrative Vice Chancellor then.

01-01:23:03 Maggard: I didn’t—let’s see, I didn’t report to Ron. I never reported to Ron, I reported to Mac [Laetsch].

01-01:23:10 Cummins: Well, that was good. You were lucky that you reported to Mac instead of Ron.

01-01:23:14 Maggard: I reported to Mac, yeah. Mac was in it, and at that time you just hustled a bowl, whatever bowl you could get into. And the Copper Bowl had invited us, and there was a slight chance that we could go to the Hawaii Bowl. Tien was on a trip someplace, and he said, “Call me and let me know.” And so, I said “Chancellor Tien, I think the only bowl we’re going to get is the Copper Bowl.” And he said, “What do you think?” And I said, “I think we should take it.” And he said, “Okay.” Well, now Mac was upset about that because he didn’t let Mac know about that, that he had said that and he had approved it. And Mac said he approved this without talking to any of us, his cabinet and so on and so forth. So, that was a little bit of a deal. But as it turned out—

01-01:24:21 Cummins: Were you in that meeting when all those NAACP representatives came in to see Tien?

01-01:24:28 Maggard: I might have been, but what we did is we actually took a vote of the team.

01-01:24:37 Cummins: I remember that.

01-01:24:38 Maggard: And they said they wanted to go.

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01-01:24:40 Cummins: Yeah, that’s right.

01-01:24:41 Maggard: And, who was the guy that said this—what was the kid that said this? He said, “Martin Luther King had a dream, and I have a dream too. I want to play in the Copper Bowl; I want to play in a bowl.” So we went to the bowl, and we won the bowl. Now all these kids were coming back, that was a really good team, they were all coming back the next year. I thought it was a Rose Bowl team next year. It was at that time that Miami called me, and so I didn’t think I was going to take that job.

01-01:25:16 Cummins: The year is now?

01-01:25:17 Maggard: That would have been ’91.

01-01:25:20 Cummins: Because then we go to the Citrus Bowl, and then—

01-01:25:23 Maggard: Yeah, actually I was in Miami by that time.

01-01:25:25 Cummins: Oh, that’s right.

01-01:25:27 Maggard: And so what happens is that—

01-01:25:29 Cummins: So you get the call.

01-01:25:30 Maggard: So I get the call, and I say, “No, I’m going to stay put.” By this time I had been here nineteen years, and we’d gotten the program nationally recognized again, and we became more stable financially. The main players in all of this, John, were—you know the Chancellors, and you know the Vice Chancellors that were involved in Athletics at the time. Now, I got the feeling at that time that Tien was going to be a very wishy-washy guy. Mac felt the same way, and there were a number of other people that did as well. And so it was a time that I really felt things were in great shape. I brought Lou Campanelli in; he was doing a good job. We had the basketball thing going, the football thing was going. We had Bear Backers that were really going well. An endowment was started in every sport. And, by the way, when we started Cal Sports Eighties, and I’ve got to give Mike Heyman credit for this—the fund raising that really has developed at Cal, I think, is due to Mike Heyman.

01-01:26:45 Cummins: It is, there’s no question.

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01-01:26:46 Maggard: And here’s the way it was. When we did the Cal Sports Eighties—and Bowker approved that, because I went to him and said, “Can we start this? We’ve got to improve our facilities.” And so on and so forth. He said, “Go ahead, if you think you can do it, go ahead.” The campus wasn’t raising any big-time dollars.

01-01:27:06 Cummins: Yeah, exactly.

01-01:27:07 Maggard: We were raising more money than any other department on the campus at that time. So we started this thing. Well, Heyman comes in, and Heyman has this vision of, “We’re going to improve all of these various parts of the campus, and we need chairs and we need this, we need that, we need this.” Now, going back, what I always felt is that Harmon [Gymnasium] needed a redo. We needed a new pavilion. Now the guy who had also become a very close friend was Wally [Walter A.] Haas, [Jr.]. And I met with Wally pretty frequently. So I’m sitting over at the Bohemian Club one day, and Wally and I are having lunch. I had talked to Wally a number of times about the pavilion, and so this particular day we’re sitting there having lunch, and I said, “Wally, I want to talk to you. We really do need a new basketball facility.” And here’s what he said, “Dave, you’re going to get it, but it’s not now.” I said, “Okay.” I said, “all right.”

01-01:28:25 Cummins: What year would that be?

01-01:28:27 Maggard: Oh gosh, this would have been probably in the eighties. Now, if you look back, somebody did this the other day, somebody Googled my name, and there was something in there that said that I first raised this issue of a new gymnasium. I think it was in the seventies. But anyhow, it was a headline thing and it’s on the net someplace because somebody sent it to me. That it was first proposed—Maggard proposes—and you know, as a matter of fact, I think Glenn Dickey wrote an article about razing Harmon and building a new—we talked about that. So that’s when it started. And we started talking about it, Wally was very interested in it, but when he told me that I never asked him again. Because I knew very well—

01-01:29:37 Cummins: Now was Bowker still Chancellor then? Does that ring a bell with you? I’m just trying to get a sense.

01-01:29:43 Maggard: I think Heyman might have become—

01-01:29:49 Cummins: It had to be—so it was just in the early eighties. I’ll find out.

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01-01:29:51 Maggard: It would have been very early eighties or late seventies. And Wally said, “You’re going to get it, but it’s not going to be right now.” And it was said in a way that, “Hey, I don’t want to hear about it, I’ve got plans for it but just leave me alone.” So, that was kind of it. Now, the other part of it, going back to the Cal Sports Eighties, and Bowker saying if you think you can raise that money, go ahead and do it. So I go to Wally, and I said, “Wally, I need you to be the chair of this program.” He said, “No, I don’t want to do it, Dave.” And I said, “Who do you think could do it?” He said, ‘Ask Roger Heyns, ask Roger.”

01-01:30:51 Cummins: So he was head of Hewlett [Foundation] at that time I guess?

01-01:30:52 Maggard: Yes, he was down at the Hewlett Foundation, so I go down to Palo Alto and I ask Roger. And Roger said, “Dave, I don’t think I could do it. But I’ll tell you what—I think Wally should do it.”

01-01:31:08 Cummins: [laughs] So get them to be co-chairs, right?

01-01:31:10 Maggard: So here’s what I did. I said, “Roger, if I can get Wally to do it, will you guys do it together?”

01-01:31:18 Cummins: Terrific, terrific.

01-01:31:19 Maggard: And he said, “Yeah, yeah.” So I call Wally, and I said, “Wally, Roger will do it if you’ll do it.” So they were co-chairs.

01-01:31:28 Cummins: Terrific.

01-01:31:28 Maggard: And they were great. This gave credibility, I mean you’ve got a former chancellor, you’ve got a guy like Wally Haas, and actually that’s when I raised the Harmon thing.

01-01:31:41 Cummins: Yes. Okay, so—

01-01:31:43 Maggard: So it would have been that period of time when we were looking at all of the facilities. And what had happened is that I’d gone around to all of the universities, and we had all of these luncheons with all these people on the outside, and we’d taken photos of Arizona State, of Arizona this, that. This is what they have, this is what we need to have to compete. So Wally and Roger were great, and that was the time when I raised the part about all of the

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facilities, and Harmon was one of them. And shortly thereafter, I’d raised it with Wally, and we’d talked about it a couple of times before. And then later was the time when I asked about it, and he said, “You’re going to get it, but it’s not now.” Okay, so I shut up about it.

01-01:32:35 Cummins: Okay, all right.

01-01:32:37 Maggard: So their being involved with this was a great help, tremendous help.

01-01:32:46 Cummins: So just a little bit on your relationship to Wally Haas. Kind of because—

01-01:32:53 Maggard: It was like that. [symbolizes with hands]

01-01:32:53 Cummins: Did you know him when you were an athlete here?

01-01:32:57 Maggard: No. I’ll tell you a story that probably should never be repeated. You’re going to have it on tape, but I’ll tell you the story. I competed in the Olympics. Payton Jordan and I had become good friends because he was the track coach at Stanford when I competed here, and then when I was at Los Altos High School he used to come over, and he recruited some of the athletes. And then he was the head coach of the Olympic team when I competed in the Olympics, so we became pretty good friends.

This is the part that is a really hot political thing. When Sam Bell left and went to Indiana Paul Brechler called me in, and he wasn’t around much at all, and he said, “I want you to be the track coach, but I can’t announce it now.” Now, in the meantime, Stan Wright comes out publically and says, “I want that job.” There was no way that I was going to be announced at that time. So now it really becomes hot. Roger Heyns is the Chancellor at the time, so this whole thing—it’s in the paper. Stan Wright coming here, black coach, the whole bit, and my “being a candidate.” So I’m getting calls at home at night, “You take that job, you’re dead. You’re dead if you take that job.”

01-01:34:41 Cummins: Who were the calls from?

01-01:34:48 Maggard: So Carolyn is really upset about it, she’s really upset. And we’re living in a little tiny rental place out in Lafayette, and I’m sleeping with a baseball bat. And we’re getting these calls and threatening and all that kind of stuff. So here’s what happened. Paul Brechler is really under pressure. Ronald Reagan is the Governor at the time. Ronald Reagan and Paul Brechler were friends. Ronald Reagan did the radio when Paul was at Iowa as the athletic director, so they were friends. So here’s what Brechler tells me—nobody knows this,

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John. He says, “If this really comes down to it, I’m going to give Dutch a call.” That’s Ronald Reagan.

So now Sam Bell goes over to Wally. Nobody knows this story. Sam Bell goes over to Wally and says, “Wally, there’s no way that Stan Wright should have that job, he’s not the best candidate.” And Wally said, ‘Well, who should have it?” He said, “Dave.” And Wally said, “Well, Dave is only twenty-nine years old.” And he said, “Yeah, but he should have it, and I’ll tell you what you do. Call Payton Jordan right now and ask him who should get the job, because Stan was his assistant at the Olympics and he knows Dave.” Wally calls Payton Jordan. Payton Jordan says that I should have that job. So now Wally apparently tells Roger this, because there was a lot of pressure to hire African Americans at that time. So in the finality of it I get the job, all right? Now, the same thing happens when the directorship is open. Stan Wright openly says, “I want that job,” and there were some others. Well, Stan Wright was maybe one of the only guys that wanted the job, other than me. I get the job.

Now, there’s other parts that kind of fit in with this in terms of the people. But anyhow—and maybe I’ll tell you that part of it later, but anyhow, by this time Tien is in, and I’m sitting there thinking should I stay here “the rest of my life,” or should I think about taking this job. So at that time Mac was leaving. Tien had kind of pushed him out, and so he was out of the picture. And I can remember having lunch with Mac at the Faculty Club. He said, “I wouldn’t trust Tien if I were you.” So they [University of Miami] call me in, and at first I said, “No, I’m going to stay put.” They called me again and said to just come down and talk to us. So I get on a midnight flight, and I fly all night, and I go down and talk to them, and they’ve got some problems. [Edward T.] Tad Foote is the president there, and I knew Tad a little before. His wife was on campus when I was here. So he said, “I want you to take this job.” I said, “Let me think about it.” So I got on the plane and said, “You know what? I think we’re going to do this.” I go home and tell Carolyn, and she says “Oh my gosh, Miami?” I said, “Let’s do it for five years. We’ll do it for five years.”

01-01:39:01 Cummins: Was it in part that you were tired of the politics? You’d done everything you could?

01-01:39:10 Maggard: Well, first of all, I thought the program was really in good shape. Now, Wally called me and said, “Dave, why are doing this? Everything is going great.” And I said, “That’s why I’m doing it Wally. That’s why I’m doing it.” And he said, “Nobody wants you to leave.” And I said, “That’s why I’m leaving. Wally, this team is going to be a Rose Bowl team. They’re going to be good. The programs are in good shape, the fundraising has really gone well.”

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Well, now I’m going to take a step back and tell you about the fundraising part here at the university, because Heyman comes in and looks at what we’re doing, and he says, “Hey, if you can do that with that, we can raise a lot of money.” Mike Heyman took charge of the fundraising. The fundraising on this campus and all of this new stuff is directly attributed to Mike Heyman, in my view. Because he felt that nothing had been done really, I mean, it was nothing, it was a nothing. And he started a very ambitious program, and some of it I didn’t like because some of it he said, “I don’t want you talking to these people because I want to talk to them,” about this and this and this. So okay, but I’d have to say that if you looked at the buildings that are here now, if you looked at the fundraising that had taken place, if you looked at the whole development thing—that’s him.

01-01:40:59 Cummins: Right. It is, it is.

01-01:40:59 Maggard: I’ve got to admit that, because he looked at what we were doing and he said, “Hey, if you can do that, we can do a lot more at the university, we can do a lot more.” Now, nobody had ever said that, nobody ever thought that.

01-01:41:12 Cummins: Well, and your comment that you were raising money, more money than anybody else was on the campus. See, that’s really critical when you think about it.

01-01:41:21 Maggard: Yeah.

01-01:41:21 Cummins: And then this.

01-01:41:23 Maggard: Yeah, and he looked at that, Mike looked at that and said, “Hey, we can raise a lot of money here.” And I don’t know that anybody else had that vision, John. I think Mike was the first one that really had that vision of—we’re going to get serious about this and really go after this.

01-01:41:47 Cummins: Exactly.

[End Audio File 1]

[Begin Audio File 2]

02-00:00:00 Maggard: I always looked at Mike Heyman as being very liberal. He was a very liberal guy—affirmative action, that whole bit. And yet at the same time, he was very opposed to special-action admits for athletes, very opposed to it. Now, he

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went along with it to some extent. But he was always watchful on the academics.

02-00:00:23 Cummins: Yes.

02-00:00:23 Maggard: He went along with it because—as long as everybody thought that—if the admissions office and other people recommended the event, he went along with it.

02-00:00:49 Cummins: What year, roughly?

02-00:00:51 Maggard: Oh, I can’t remember what year it was for certain.

02-00:00:51 Cummins: Because I just saw—there was a report—

02-00:00:54 Maggard: [Kenneth] Jowitt was one of the guys that I grabbed along with—there’s a political scientist—Bob Price and Jack Citrin. But there was also another guy that was a hotshot guy that wrote all the books—a very distinguished professor here.

02-00:01:11 Cummins: In political science. Was it Aaron Wildavsky?

02-00:01:14 Maggard: Yes. Aaron Wildavsky. When I asked him to serve as a mentor and advisor, this gave the process even more credibility.

And there was another guy, an anthropologist. We had a group of people, and essentially—I’d ask them, I’d assign athletes to them. Kevin Johnson—see, I assigned to Ken Jowitt. I think they still may be friends.

02-00:01:38 Cummins: But there was also this push to really improve the Athletic Study Center.

02-00:01:45 Maggard: Oh yeah, yeah.

02-00:01:46 Cummins: And Mike brought that off. And he said Ken Jowitt was a big mover there.

02-00:01:51 Maggard: No, let me tell you the way that really was. [sigh] I told him that I felt that we needed to have a study center.

02-00:02:09 Cummins: They didn’t have one before that?

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02-00:02:09 Maggard: It was almost nothing.

02-00:02:11 Cummins: All right.

02-00:02:12 Maggard: I mean, there was a couple of people. Actually Petrina Long, who’s down at UCLA, she’s the Associate Athletic Director down there. She and I talk about it now and then, but she was the one that helped me get it started. We started this thing, and Mike Heyman was very opposed to it.

02-00:02:28 Cummins: He was!

02-00:02:31 Maggard: He was. In the beginning, the idea of it—“Dave, this is not a remedial university.” Here’s what happened. I’m in a meeting. I can’t remember what kind of meeting it was, but Ken Jowitt was in there, and he was speaking. The first time I’d ever met Ken. And he said, “You know what we need around this university? More Rhodes Scholars in the Rose Bowl.”

02-00:02:58 Cummins: I remember that.

02-00:02:59 Maggard: So after the meeting I said, “Hey Ken. You’re my friend!” And so that was the beginning of it, of getting these guys. Citrin was really interested. Price was really interested. This guy who was the anthropologist—there were five or six that were key guys that we got involved in this.

Now Mike, in the beginning, says, “This is not a remedial university, Dave.” And I said, “Mike—everybody can use this.” We get it going; he thinks it’s the greatest thing in the world. He expands it! It’s his idea now!

02-00:03:43 Cummins: Of course.

02-00:03:45 Maggard: It was the funniest thing. And he touted it, that this is what we’re doing at Cal. The Bridge Program, and that whole bit. So that was—

02-00:03:59 Cummins: And that fit in with the affirmative action.

02-00:04:01 Maggard: Absolutely. That was the genesis of it. And so Mike then says, “I’m going to support it because I don’t want the money coming from the Athletic Department because it’s conflict of interest.

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02-00:04:14 Cummins: Yeah, that was smart.

02-00:04:14 Maggard: So this now became his deal. But Petrina Long and I talk about it still. I saw her not long ago, and we talk about the good old days when we started the first part of the academic advising, which was nothing, a couple of people who were advising the athletes. And then it was really expanded, then all kinds of people got involved in it. [Pat] Hayashi got involved in it. But that’s the way it developed. And in the beginning—

02-00:04:56 Cummins: He didn’t want it.

02-00:04:57 Maggard: Mike expressed that—he said, “This is like remedial stuff. That’s not Berkeley.” Now after we got it started—boy, he loved it. He loved it and he expanded it. He expanded upon it. But that mentorship, that we started—as a matter of fact, I started one at Miami, and I started one at Houston. The one at Houston—when I got there the graduation rate was 27 percent.

02-00:05:33 Cummins: Yeah, I read that in the press release when you left.

02-00:05:35 Maggard: I’ll tell you—we pushed that, and we pushed these guys through summer school. I told them, “The only way you’re going to go to summer school and us pay—you’ve got to take units toward graduation.” So we spiked it immediately. And we’ve got a really great study thing there. Really a good one that we—we almost patterned it kind of after this in a lot of respects. Because I felt that—so we expanded that. But anyhow, that was part of getting the faculty involved. Get the faculty involved to help with this whole business.

Now I’m going to tell you the story of Russell White. And I talked to him not long—

02-00:06:26 Cummins: Before you do that, I just want to go back to the Cal Sports Eighties, and a little bit more detail about what happened there. And then the fact—as you were saying just as I turned that tape—that it’s kind of ironic that here’s the guy that’s speaking out about big-time athletics, against it, he’s pro- affirmative action. Both very unpopular with at least a segment of the alumni, and yet very successful. And at the same time modeling it on what you had been doing! That’s so interesting.

02-00:07:11 Maggard: Well, you know the thing about it is, I think Mike just looked at it and said, “Hey, you’ve got guys like Dave [David H.] Osborne involved in this, and he’s involved with Athletics. I’m going to get him to do this. So leave him alone for a while. We’ve got these other guys in Sacramento.” This, this,

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this—and so—and it wasn’t for Athletics that he was raising money. This was for chairs, this was for buildings, this was for all kinds of things here on the campus. But no, essentially it was like, “if Athletics can do this we can do a lot better than that.” That’s essentially what he said. We can do a lot better than that. We can really raise some money.

02-00:07:58 Cummins: I’ll have to go back and look at these files but—when they started that campaign, the Keeping the Promise. That was Curt [Curtis R.] Simic. He was the Vice Chancellor that Mike brought in.

02-00:08:15 Maggard: He was, right.

02-00:08:19 Cummins: And he also had Athletics reporting to him from when he came from Oregon. I don’t know if you knew that.

02-00:08:23 Maggard: I didn’t know that.

02-00:08:25 Cummins: Yeah, so he had the connection with Athletics. A very good guy, I thought.

02-00:08:31 Maggard: He just retired recently from Indiana.

02-00:08:31 Cummins: He did. Yeah. He raised $3 billion at Indiana. That’s amazing. But anyway— was there a segment of that campaign that was for Athletics? Did they fold that in in some way?

02-00:08:46 Maggard: No. No.

02-00:08:46 Cummins: So how did that work?

02-00:08:49 Maggard: They said they would not raise money for Athletics.

02-00:08:56 Cummins: So when you were talking too, about Athletics raising money, you were doing it.

02-00:08:59 Maggard: Oh, we were doing it.

02-00:09:00 Cummins: You didn’t have any help from the Development Office.

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02-00:09:02 Maggard: No, that was our department. No, no, no, no. That was—we were all separate from that. I think it folded in, it folded in later.

02-00:09:12 Cummins: Yeah, it did.

02-00:09:13 Maggard: Probably after I left. But because of the fact that we started Bear Backers, and because it was going very well. No, it was much more, and I think the reason being is that Mike looked at it and said, “The academics have got to have priority on this campus. We’ve got to get these things for the faculty in order for us to remain the institution.” Really, the emphasis was on academic chairs, on buildings, and so on and so forth. Now Mike got it off to a big start. Tien kind of picked up a little bit on it later.

02-00:09:57 Cummins: Then Tien sets up, but that’s the second capital campaign. I forget what that one was called. But he raises—Mike raised around $420 million in the first one, then Tien comes along, it’s very interesting, and they raise $1.3 billion. But at that point the way they did it was—and this was after—

02-00:10:17 Maggard: I’m going to tell you how I originally did it.

02-00:10:21 Cummins: Okay. They did this survey—they went out and they surveyed everybody and they said, “What are your needs,” et cetera, and that was kind of—took everybody aback. Well, why isn’t the Chancellor and a key group determining where this money is going? But so then units of the campus like Cal Performances, for example, were in for a million bucks or whatever. And I’m virtually certain that Athletics was in there at some point. I’ll have to go check. But I think that’s really interesting, because even Sandy Barbour now says Athletics is raising a ton of money. They are. It’s for the stadium, it’s all for the—

02-00:11:04 Maggard: They’re the same, they’re the same people. You’ve got Ned Spieker. You know, the guy that we got for the pool.

02-00:11:10 Cummins: Yes, exactly. Exactly the same crew.

02-00:11:12 Maggard: And Gary Rogers, and Rick [William F.] Cronk and—

02-00:11:17 Cummins: Rick Cronk and Gary Rogers.

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02-00:11:18 Maggard: All those guys were guys that we hit for the crew endowment thing. Now the other thing that I felt was really important was to endow the “non-revenue sports.” So by the time I left, we had started, I think, endowments in thirteen sports. A couple of them were almost finished, almost completely—rugby was.

02-00:11:44 Cummins: Golf.

02-00:11:45 Maggard: Golf, crew. So we had a good start on that, and that was essentially—those same people are the same people that Mike really went to later. I went to Don Fisher early on.

02-00:12:08 Cummins: That’s really interesting.

02-00:12:09 Maggard: Yeah, and of course, Wally [Haas]—now Wally gave to everything. But his whole thing was we need to get Athletics healthy and the whole bit.

02-00:12:21 Cummins: Peter [E. Haas].

02-00:12:24 Maggard: He also, yeah, Peter the same thing. And Bob [Robert D. Haas], I understand, is very involved now.

02-00:12:28 Cummins: Yes, he is, he is.

02-00:12:29 Maggard: And young Wally [Walter J. Haas]. And I remember, we took Wally and his younger son, the young Wally, on a trip, I think to Oregon, and outlined all the fundraising stuff that we were doing. And then one trip up to Oregon State, Wally went with us, and then I went with him to the Rogue [River], his little place on the Rogue for the weekend. And it turned out it rained the whole weekend, so we sat inside and we had a great visit. So Wally was a very close friend. He was a real confidant for me, and Wally was one of these guys that—he never told you what to do, but what he would do is that he might say, “Hey, come over and let’s have breakfast. Have you looked at this? Have you looked at this?” And you knew what the message was. You know? You needed to look at it. So he was a wonderful friend.

I think what happened is that Mike looked at all these people who not only had an interest in Athletics, but I think he felt I could convince these people that in order to have a great university we’re going to have to have these other things for science, for the whole campus. And that’s why I credit him. I could see it. I could see what he did, and I can remember him saying, “You need to

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stay away from this guy and this guy, because we’re going to ask him for a chair.” We’re going to ask for this or that or whatever. So those same people, I know, are still helping. And so I guess, John, in all of it, the mentorship, the endowments of the programs, what Bear Backers was doing, both of the big programs were in good shape, which is why I took the Miami job.

But going back a little more in terms of Mike’s whole feeling about this business of affirmative action and Athletics, and the whole bit. Russell White—Russell White is a good case. I saw in the paper he just took the job as a football coach, I think at Oakland Tech or one of the places. Anyhow, Russell White wanted to come here badly. He was a non-predictor, okay? Everybody looked at his transcript and said, “Hey, no way.” His grandmother and mother came up here, came to my office and said, “Russell wants to come to Cal.” And I said, “Will he go to Bridge? He’s got to pay for it himself.” “Yeah.” I said, “Will you tell me that he will make it?” “He’ll make it. He’ll make it. He’ll make it. If you’ll go to bat for him, he’ll make it.” All right. I called Russell later. “You’re going to have to go to Bridge, Russell, to see if you’re going to do it. The whole bit.” So we send all this material over to say this is a guy that we want, as a chip. I think I’m in Arizona with the basketball team. Mike Heyman calls me and said, “What the hell are you doing?” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “The Russell White thing. Dave, you’ve got to be out of your mind. There is no way this kid can make it. Are you going to go out on a limb? Are you going to put yourself out there on this one?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “This better work out.” And hung up.

Well, Russell—I’m obviously nervous. I’m invested, so I’m all over the coaches. “Is he going to class? One day I said, “Hey, I don’t see Russell around. Where is he?” “He’s going to class. He’s at the library.” I said, “Come on, what’s the deal? I want to see him.” He comes up, because he couldn’t compete that first year. See, he had to sit it out. He came to the office. I said, “Russell, what are you doing now?” He said, “No, I’m studying. I’m going to make it. I’m going to do it.” All right. He goes through it, and the next year I leave and go to Miami. Now, I am still calling him and saying, “Russell, you know what we said? I do not want you to let you down or me or the university.” He finished. He finished. And he said, “No. I’m going to make it. I’ll be okay. I’ll make it.” Well, one of the guys that wrote a story about him not long ago said, “You know, I talked to Russell White, and he said you really went to bat for him.” And I said, “You know what? I haven’t talked to Russell in a long, long time. I’m really proud of him.” But Mike was absolutely—he said, “This better work. This better work.”

But you know there are all of those things that the public—

02-00:18:16 Cummins: Doesn’t know.

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02-00:18:18 Maggard: Will never know. And there’s another story that nobody will ever know, but I’ll tell you. And it’s about a well-known political figure and his son. I don’t know if you know about that story. Mike Heyman called me one day, and he said, “What’s the deal with this young man. Are you guys recruiting him?” And I said, “Well, I’ll find out from Bruce.” Bruce says, “He’s not that good, Dave. He’s really not that good. No, we’re not recruiting him.” So I call Mike back, and he said, “Dave, I want you to recruit him.”

02-00:19:11 Cummins: No kidding!

02-00:19:13 Maggard: No joke. This’ll shock you, this’ll shock you! So he said, “I want you to recruit him, and I want him on a scholarship.” So I go back to Bruce, and he said, “Dave. These people expect me to win and use a scholarship for a guy that can’t play? There’s nobody recruiting this guy. There is no way.” So I go back to Mike, and I said, “Mike. Bruce doesn’t want to use a scholarship.” Mike is angry. He’s really angry. Now, as it turns out—

02-00:19:54 Cummins: Why couldn’t he do a special action admit for him?

02-00:19:55 Maggard: I asked him that. He said, “I don’t want to use it.” So you know what happens? The kid goes to another college. He’s there one semester.

02-00:20:06 Cummins: I remember that now. He’s very unhappy, yeah.

02-00:20:10 Maggard: He’s very unhappy. He wants to come to Cal. Mike calls me again and said, “Dave. I want you guys to get him in school.” We look at his transcript, and there’s no way. I said, “Mike. We don’t want to use a chip. Why don’t you use a Chancellor’s admit?” Boy, he got angry about that. He really got angry about that. He said, “Look, he may be governor someday. This young man’s dad may be in a position to give the University a great deal of help. I want him in school.” And I said, “Well, Mike—what am I going to do? The football coach is telling me that the guy can’t play, and we’ve got to use a scholarship that could go to somebody else. You know the pressure. Bruce just doesn’t want to have anything to do with it.” So Mike was—boy, he was really mad. The one guy that did know about that was Dave Osborne, because Dave Osborne in another conversation said, “Hey, you’ve got to realize. Your Chancellor was really mad at you.” Well, anyhow, he apparently did let him in, and he graduated.

02-00:21:34 Cummins: He did well.

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02-00:21:36 Maggard: He graduated. But nobody knows the story. You know what I thought, in my mind—this is the cynical side. Everybody has a price. In this case, Mike was willing to sell out because he felt it was in the best interest of the University. The total University meant more than one special admit and a football scholarship.

02-00:21:53 Cummins: Yeah, everybody has a price.

02-00:21:53 Maggard: And Mike says, “This guy can help the University. We need to make him happy.”

02-00:22:02 Cummins: And we should be able to do that, and of course we can’t.

02-00:22:20 Maggard: Well, then it was okay.

02-00:22:23 Cummins: Why not just do a special admit?

02-00:22:24 Maggard: No, see he wanted it to be athletics. The kid and his dad want him to be on the football team, all right? He wants an athletic scholarship. His dad wants him to have an athletic scholarship. That was the deal—he wanted him to play football. He wanted him to be able to say, “I got a football scholarship.” That’s what it was all about, see? And I’d never tell that story with names because it would benefit no one.

But it gets back to the part that we were talking about, where on the one hand you have the Chancellor who is a heavy-duty academic guy, who is very much opposed to the special action admits, with the exception that now you have this core of mentors and these other people looking at it and saying, “I think this guy can make it.” By the way, the other thing that we did was have these guys do personal interviews with a lot of these people, so that they could see them. But when it came down to “this guy can help the University,” we need the money, we need the help of the total university, it was a different deal. It was a totally different deal. Now, John, I’m not so sure there was anything wrong with that. I’m not so sure there was anything wrong with it other than the fact that it was ironic from the standpoint that Mike was so opposed to athletic special admits.

02-00:24:15 Cummins: Yeah, but a not uncommon example of dilemmas that Chancellors face.

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02-00:24:15 Maggard: Well, exactly. That’s exactly what it was. That’s exactly what it was. And Bruce Snyder was—he was in shock! He said, “Dave, you’ve got to be kidding me. You’ve got to be kidding me.”

So I left because I felt that things were in great shape, and it wasn’t like somebody was pushing me out. And so I went down to Miami, and Rick Greenspan was here as the interim, and this committee called me back and asked me to make a recommendation, and they mentioned [Robert] Bockrath. I said, “Bockrath will be a huge mistake. I know him. He’s a good guy on facilities. You’ve got the guy right here. Rick Greenspan. He knows the operation, the whole thing.” Well, they hired Bockrath.

02-00:25:16 Cummins: Yeah, no fit.

02-00:25:17 Maggard: No fit, and this was one of those deals again—that was a really good football team that year that went to the Citrus Bowl.

02-00:25:27 Cummins: Yes, it was.

02-00:25:28 Maggard: So Bruce had called me a little bit during the year, and he said, “Dave, I can’t—this guy won’t talk to me. He’s trying to change my contract. I don’t get it.” And I said, “Well, Bruce, you’re doing so well.” So now they just pummel Clemson at the Citrus Bowl, a big win. So Bruce calls me after the Citrus Bowl and he says, “Dave. I’m at Arizona State.” And I said, “For what?” Because I met with Tien before I left, and I said, “You do not want to let this football and this basketball staff get away.’ “Oh no, no, no. I’ll make sure. I’ll make sure they stay. I’ll make sure.” I said, “Because this is going to be a great team.” “Yeah, yeah. I’ll make sure.” So I said to Bruce, “What are you doing at Arizona State?” And he said, “I’m looking at the job.” And I said, “Bruce! For what? No! You’ve done a great job. Stay at Cal.” He said, “Dave, I can’t. I can’t stay there.” I said, “What’s wrong?” He said, “We get on the plane from the Citrus Bowl, and I go up, and I sit down next to Bob Bockrath. I haven’t had more than one or two conversations with him the entire time he’s been here. “I want to let you know that Arizona State has called me, and I may be talking to them.” And I said, “So what did Bockrath say?” He said, “That’s great. That’s a great place. If you can get that job that’s a place where you should go.” I said, “Bruce—no way!”

02-00:27:19 Cummins: You’re kidding!

02-00:27:20 Maggard: He said, “I’m not kidding. I’m not kidding you, Dave. That’s no joke.” And I said, “Bruce, that is crazy. You’ve worked so hard. I want to see you stay at

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Cal. What is it, Bruce? What do you want? Do you want money? Do you want somebody to say they love you? What do you want?” He said, “Well, I’d like a little bit of both.” I said, “What’s Arizona State going to give you?” He told me. I said, “Does Cal have to match it?” “No, they don’t have to match it. All I’d like, Dave, is for them to say they want me to stay, and do a little bit for me.” And I said, “You can’t get that?” He said, “No.” I said, “Well, I can understand why you want to leave.” He leaves. So he leaves, and they play in the Rose Bowl for the national championship against Ohio State. That was a great team, and he left. He left a great team.

Well, that same year—I guess it was the same year—Lou Campanelli, during the summer, called me about the St. John’s job. And at that time Miami being in the Big East, I knew the St. John’s people. So he said, “What do you think about—they’ve asked me to,” I said, “Lou, no. You stay at Cal. You’ve got the thing going. It’s going well.” Now, Lou is a very emotional guy, and Lou is a guy that you just needed to say, “Hey Lou. No. Not going to happen.” And he’d quit, he’d say okay, all right. That’s it. So he calls about this thing, I said “No, don’t do that.” He said, “I think I could probably get the job.” I said, “Ah, you stay at Cal.” Well, I come home one night, sort of late, and Carolyn said, “You know, Lou called. I think there’s something wrong.” And I said, “Really?” “He wants you to call him right away.” And so I call him, and he said, “Dave, I got fired.” I said, “Lou! What happened? You get caught cheating? What’d you do, anyhow?” He said, “You know Bockrath, and Bockrath has not said three or four words to me. We’re at Arizona State, and I’m chewing guys out in the locker room, and so he calls me in on Monday or Tuesday or whatever and said, ‘You’re verbally abusing the kids, and you’re going to be fired.’”

Now, I’ve got to tell you, John, from all of the things that I know, and I know [Todd] Bozeman. Bozeman absolutely stabbed him in the back. And this was one of those things that—I think Lou was having difficulty because he didn’t have somebody strong in terms of communication with him. Because he was emotional, and he was cocky. And he’s a guy that you just have to, when he comes in and starts raising his hands, “Sit down, Lou. Okay. We’re going to do this, this, and we’re not going to do this and this and this. So Lou, you’ve got to knock it off.” Okay. All right. So he’s fired. Bozeman gets the job. I told Lou—because I was just leaving when he hired Bozeman—I said, “Lou, are you sure you want to do this? Are you sure you want to go out...” “Yeah, I think this guy’s going to be good, Dave.” So now you get the probation thing on basketball, Lou can’t get a job, I’m calling all over the country for him. The athletic directors are saying, “Dave, my president says, ‘Why was he fired in the middle of the year?’ I can’t hire him.” So Lou is finished. He can’t get a job coaching. Lou did a great job of getting basketball back on the map. He was honest and a very good coach.

John, I can never believe that they would have hired Bockrath. I just couldn’t believe that, knowing him. And now he goes from here to Texas Tech, and he

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screws them up. They got on probation. And then Alabama hires him—and Bob [Robert G.] Driscoll—who is currently AD at Providence—Bob Driscoll by this time was saying, “Hey, there’s a chance for anybody, Dave.” With Bockrath getting these jobs. Well, they fired him at Alabama, and then he went to a junior college, a community college in Arizona.

But Greenspan, when he didn’t get the job, he called me. I brought him down to Miami. I said, “We’ll help you get a job.” He gets the job at Illinois State. He does a nice job. He goes to West Point, does a nice job. He goes to Indiana—now, the Indiana thing is one that really bites him in the rear end, because Mike Davis who was there after Bobby Knight was under such pressure he left. He goes to UAB. Now, the president and a guy on the board—and this is what you’re talking about with the athletic director—the president and the guy on the board said, “You know, the guy that you should hire is Kelvin Sampson.” Now Kelvin Sampson had been at Oklahoma, was at Oklahoma, and they had had some sanctions for his illegal recruiting. So they hire Kelvin Sampson. All right—the president left. He had hired Rick Greenspan. And by the way, Curt Simic called me about Rick before they hired him, and I said, “He’s good. He knows it all. He’s good. He’ll do a terrific job.” Rick was doing an unbelievable job raising money. He raised a lot of money.

Now, Kelvin Sampson gets caught cheating again there. So now the NCAA sanctions them. In the meantime, the president who had hired Rick and said you need to hire Sampson was gone. A new guy comes in, and the new guy says, “Kelvin Sampson should never have been hired. This is unbelievable.” Now Rick’s got to stand up—because he called me, he said, “Dave, I’ve got to say I hired him. What else am I going to say?” I said, “Rick, that’s exactly it. You can’t say anything else.” So now he’s the fall guy, and the new guy says, “By December you need to find another job.” Rick goes through it; he’s out of it for a year. Now a couple of jobs come up, he calls me, I try to help him. The Rice job comes up. He calls me, he says, “Do you know anybody there?” I said, “Yeah. I know a number of people there.” “Can you help me get the job? I’ve interviewed for it. I think I have a real shot at it.” So I call the guy and he says, “Well, Dave, what do we do about the NCAA stuff?” And I said, “This guy’s a straight arrow. He has great integrity. Listen, you will not have any problem with that. The guy is really good. Let me tell you—you’ll make a good hire at Rice if you hire him.” They hired him. He’s there. He’s at Rice. He’s been there a couple of months, two or three months. I talked to him a couple of nights ago. But this is an example of what you’re talking about, where—

02-00:36:24 Cummins: That influence.

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02-00:36:26 Maggard: Somebody else can pull the strings, but you as the athletic director have got to stand up and say, “I hired the guy.” Or if it becomes one of those situations where you have cheating within the department, it starts right there. Right at the top. Hey, these violations—and this is one of the reasons that sometimes, that it was exactly the Mike White situation, that I think that Al could see, and we could all see, that this thing is headed in the wrong direction, and it can get nothing but worse if we continue to go along these lines. Now, things have changed dramatically at Cal since I was here. And you know, mostly the whole part about paying people— making $2 million a year—do you think Mike Heyman would ever do that?

02-00:37:34 Cummins: No way!

02-00:37:35 Maggard: There is no way. Do you think Mike Heyman would allow us to go over the budget? No way. No. Wouldn’t do it. It was one of those things, of his saying, hey, this is the deal. No, you’re not going to pay him that much. You’re not going to pay a coach like that. So, it’s really very different. And, you know, you were here so you know what the situation was.

02-00:38:07 Cummins: I know. Absolutely.

02-00:38:08 Maggard: But you look on the outside and you say—I was really lucky at Houston, and they’re zero and eleven when I come in, and that whole program is a mess! I mean a mess. And so it becomes one of those things—we didn’t have any money. And so what did I do? I hired an assistant coach who had been a great high school coach there in Texas, and he was at Texas Tech for three years as an assistant. I hired him as an assistant coach, and everybody says, hey, you’re rolling the dice, buddy. You’re rolling the dice. You’ve got an assistant coach who is not a high-profile guy. All right. I didn’t have the money to go after a high-profile guy. But as it turned out—it turned out great. Now he’s there for a period of time, and now Baylor pays him $1.8 million, seven years guaranteed. And I said, “They’re passing the plate a lot in church for that!” [chuckles] That was it! He just said, “Hey Dave, I’m going—seven years guaranteed $1.8 [million] a year?”

02-00:39:24 Cummins: Who wouldn’t?

02-00:39:25 Maggard: “I’m going. And it’s a Big Twelve.” So now, by this time I’m thinking— Carolyn keeps saying, “When are we going back to California? When are we going back to California?” And I kept saying, “We’ll stay one more year.” Because I had started a fundraising program. It was going well. We were getting some things squared away. “Let’s stay one more year.” So I was going

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to leave. We were going to leave at that time. But now Art leaves and I said, “I can’t leave. I’ve got to hire a football coach, and I’ve got to hire a good one. And I’ve got to stay here for at least a year to try to help him get it through.” So now I look at all these guys. Who do I hire? The first black coach in Division I in the state of Texas. He’s the Black Coaches Association man of the year this year. Kevin Sumlin.

02-00:40:25 Cummins: What did you have to pay him?

02-00:40:29 Maggard: Oh—$650,000—$650,000 with some other incentives. Now—[William] Mack Brown is making $5 million.

02-00:40:40 Cummins: I know.

02-00:40:42 Maggard: The guy over at A&M is making $4 [million]. I mean, the whole place is nuts! These guys are calling me and saying, “Dave—I’ll take the job for $2 million.” [laughs] “I’ll take the job for $2 million.” You know, [Dennis] Franchione calls me, after he got fired at A&M. And he said, “Dave, I don’t need more than a million dollars, because they paid me off well. I really want that job.” “Well, let me see what happens, Fran.” I couldn’t hire him. [John] Mackovic, the guy that had been fired at Texas, calls me and says, “Dave, I want to prove myself again.” All right. So now, I’m going through this thing—fortunately, in some ways, we don’t have a president. We have an interim president.

02-00:41:42 Cummins: That helps.

02-00:41:43 Maggard: So now I’m looking at all these people, and I don’t have a committee. But what I’m doing is that I’m calling a lot of people—what do you know about this guy, what do you know about this guy? I call every pro GM; I call athletic directors all around the country. Kevin Sumlin was very interested in the job. He was the offensive coordinator at Oklahoma, and he’d been at Texas A&M before. He played at Purdue. He’d been around to a lot of places, even at Washington State and so on and so forth. He’s an assistant coach. So now I interview him two or three times, and I call a lot of people about him, and I call the head coach at Oklahoma, and I say, “Is he ready?” He says, “Yeah, he’s ready. He’s ready.” I pull the string. The guy’s a star! We were going to bowls, but we hadn’t one a bowl in over twenty years. Then we beat Air Force in the Armed Forces Bowl. Carolyn says, “Can we leave now?” [laughs] And I said, “Well, let me see.” But he’s here, he’s got the thing pretty well squared away, and you get to a place where you don’t want to leave if it’s not going pretty well. And so, that was—we always planned to come back to California. I thought we’d stay three years. We stayed seven and a half.

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02-00:43:34 Cummins: How old are you now?

02-00:43:36 Maggard: Seventy. And John—I could still do it! I can still—

02-00:43:47 Cummins: You haven’t lost any of your enthusiasm!

02-00:43:49 Maggard: Yeah. No, I can still do that. And I love the whole thing, and we started a lot of programs that had never been started. The mentorship thing at Houston. Do you know that there were six or seven alums running that athletic program? That’s a place that had big problems with the NCAA. These guys were running the program, and they had this fundraising thing on the outside. Houston Athletic Foundation. I got to the first meeting, and I said, “This is the way I see fundraising here.” This is the first week I’m there. This guy who started it, cowboy hat, boots, always had a cigar in his mouth, never lit—he comes over to me and he says, “Hey, boy,” just like this [imitating a Texan], “Hey boy, you’re in Texas now. You’re going to do it the way we do it, or you’re gone.” I said, “Glenn [Lillie], I’ll tell you what. You’ve got the wrong guy. Because we’re not going to do it your way. We’ve tried it your way.” And he said, “We’re going to be around a lot longer than you are.” And I said, “You know what? You’re right. But it’s not going to be your way while I’m here. It hasn’t worked.” So I said, “That’s the way it goes.” They’d have had me out of there if we hadn’t won. We had to win, and we had to start raising money. Otherwise, those five or six guys would have had me. They’re moving back in right now!

02-00:45:29 Cummins: Are they?

02-00:45:30 Maggard: Yeah. They’re getting back involved, and it just became one of those things that—these guys were really angry with me, and Carolyn says, “Dave, is it worth it?” I said, “You know what? I’m not going to let these guys run me off right now. We’re going to get some things squared away. If they get me fired, so be it. But that’s the way it is.” Now Art [Arthur K.] Smith, the guy that hired me—upstanding guy. He’s a guy that when he talked to me about the job he said, “Dave, the HAF is a big problem. You’ve got to handle that right away. It’s a huge problem.” We have a meeting in the board room—one of the Regents is in the room—Art Smith, the President, and me. These guys all got him to back down, and I told him the next day, “Art, I’m really disappointed.” He said, “About what?” I said, “You backed down.” He said, “Dave, we didn’t have the votes with the Regents.” And I said, “Why did it have to go to the Regents?” He says, “You know, Bo [Thaddeus] Smith is sitting there on the Board of Regents.” I said, “Art—this program is never going to amount to anything until you get these guys squared away. These guys, as you know,

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have been running this program, and it has been the wrong way.” “I know that, but right now—” So he’s getting ready to retire.

Now, two months before he retires, he says, “Go ahead and do it the way you want to.” Now, here’s the other thing. It’s funny—I’ve thought about writing a book about this kind of stuff—but here’s the thing that’s funny. Art Smith’s retirement dinner. We go to the dinner. It is announced that evening, this guy [Glenn Lillie] that started the HAF and this guy that said, “Hey bowah,”—he started an endowed scholarship for Art’s wife. It was announced that evening. Carolyn says, “You’ve got to be kidding me.” Does everyone have a price? Even college presidents?

02-00:47:53 Cummins: Unbelievable.

02-00:47:55 Maggard: She said, “That is it.” Now one of the guys that was a Regent—

02-00:48:02 Cummins: Now this is fairly recent.

02-00:48:05 Maggard: No, this was six years ago.

02-00:48:06 Cummins: This is early.

02-00:48:07 Maggard: This was early, early in the going.

02-00:48:09 Cummins: That’s what I thought.

02-00:48:08 Maggard: Yeah, it was early in the going you know, because Art was only there a year. He said, “How long will you stay?” I said, “I’ll stay as long as you, or I’ll stay five years.” He retired in a year.

02-00:48:21 Cummins: So in the last two months he said—

02-00:48:22 Maggard: In the last two months he said, “Do what you want to do.” So we did it, and fortunately, again, fortunately we won, and we really started raising good money. Or, John, they might have gotten me! [laughs] And I knew it! I knew it very well. I told Carolyn, “Hey, we’ve got to win. And we’ve got to get this thing squared away.”

But the other thing, the other thing that happened—and I put it in their face a little bit, and I did it purposely. I said, “You want your kid to come to this

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school with the graduation rate being what it is? You’ve got to be kidding me. This is unbelievable. No. We’re not going to do that.” And the basketball coach, Ray McCallum, I ended up firing him. I said, “Ray, if this kid gets on the bus, I’m going to fire you. He has not been to class in the last month. And you know what I’m going to do, Ray? We’re getting ready to play in the basketball tournament. I’m going to stand at the bus, and if he comes out there he is not going to get on the bus. For the next two weeks he’s going to go to class every time, or it’s no deal, Ray. You’re not going to do it.” Well, as it turned out I did end up firing him, just because of those kinds of things.

The football coach—what they were doing with summer school is that the football players took one unit of weight training. For one unit of weight training you give them a scholarship. They dropped the one unit after a certain period of time, kept the scholarship money, and ended up in summer school with that. So I go into the football coach and I said, “We can’t do that.” He said, “Dave, we can’t be competitive unless we do that.” I said, “Have you looked at the graduation rate of our football players? There is no way. That’s done. Over with. They take units toward graduation, or we don’t pay for summer school. We don’t pay.”

The thing about it is that I knew, in going through this at Cal with the alumni group and the whole thing, that I was going to get trapped for a period of time. And Donnie Avery, who as a sophomore, a heck of an athlete—I said, “If you get one F and one withdrawal, we won’t pay for summer school.” So he did, so I told the coach, “We don’t pay for it.” So he calls me on the phone, cocky little guy, he calls me on the phone, and he says, “Hey Dave, I hear you’re not going to pay for summer school for me.” And I said, “You’ve got it right Donnie. No way.” He said, “Why?” I said, “You know the deal. Until you get your butt squared away, we’re not going to pay for you in anything.” “Okay.” And he hung up. Now, I thought the kid was going to pout. So I see him in the hallway, I don’t know, three or four weeks later, and I said, “Donnie, are you okay?” “Yeah, I’m okay. I screwed up. I screwed up, but I’m okay.” He graduated, he did a good job, and it was one of those situations that—you know, I said, “Donnie, you either get it squared away now, as a sophomore...” Well, he’s drafted high. He started as a rookie with the St. Louis Rams. He’s having a heck of a career. He graduated before he left. So a lot of those things, John, I learned along the way. And plus the fact that I probably wouldn’t have been so tough had I not been through it and just said, hey, not worth it.

And I love the association with the kids. See, a lot of guys after they get to be a certain age, but no, I—I love to—they come in to see me and visit about their lives. That’s the fun part of the whole thing, watching the kids grow up. You know the other thing that I get a big kick out of? Bruce Kennedy—do you know him? Do you know who he was?

02-00:53:34 Cummins: No.

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02-00:53:36 Maggard: First year as track coach, he was out of Rhodesia, javelin thrower. I’m going to tell you the brief part of the story. Anyhow, when I’m at the Olympics, this Australian coach comes through and he says, “There’s a kid in Rhodesia—I understand you’re going to Cal to coach there. There’s a young kid in Rhodesia that could be a decent javelin thrower.” I said, “Okay. Have him write to me.” He starts writing to me. Now there’s all this unrest on campus, South Africa, the whole trip, and I’m thinking, oh geez, I don’t know. I don’t know about bringing the kid over here. He says he wants to come. He says he wants to come. I look at his marks. He’s throwing off of grass, bare-footed— so I pick him up at the airport, and the National Guard were on the campus at the time. Down on Telegraph—do you remember when they had the barbed wire out there?

02-00:54:37 Cummins: Yes, yes.

02-00:54:38 Maggard: I thought, this kid is going to blow his mind. We drive across the bridge, we go up, and I see Jim Penrose, who was a kid that was on the team. I said, “Jim—I want you to take care of Bruce. This is the deal.” He comes in, he breaks the school record as a freshman. He does a great job. He does a great job academically. He’s the team captain, everybody loves him, the whole bit. Now, he makes the Olympic team in Rhodesia in ’72. They can’t compete. He makes it in ’76; they can’t compete. He has changed his citizenship by that time to the United States. He made our ’80 Olympic team and they boycott it. Three Olympic teams—he never competed. Now, you know what the kid does? I call him a kid. He’s not a kid. You know that every year, on the day that I picked him up at the airport he calls me—forty years! He called me the other day, he said, “Hey, old man. You know how many years it has been?” I don’t care where he’s been—London, or wherever I’ve been. He said, “You screwed me up. I called Houston and I didn’t know that you’d left.” So forty years, and he’s got two kids—his son’s here at Cal. His daughter just finished at University of Pennsylvania, lives down in Santa Barbara. Bruce has done well, and he said, “I never could have done it without...” And so, for forty years, every year on that date— [chuckles]

02-00:56:30 Cummins: And he never forgot.

02-00:56:32 Maggard: He never forgot—even this year, after forty years. So, John, those are the paybacks. Those are the paybacks of being involved. There are a lot of nasty things that go on in athletics. There really are. Basketball is the worst program in the country. It is the most corrupt in college athletics. It is corrupt, believe me. It’s terrible, and that’s one of those things that they’ve got to get—none of those kids graduate.

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02-00:57:07 Cummins: Well, you saw our graduation rates, didn’t you:?

02-00:57:08 Maggard: What was it?

02-00:57:09 Cummins: When they went to the NCAA tournament, the Basketball Committee was making a big point about the graduation rates, so the Boston Globe wrote a piece. I can send it to you, and I was reading it, and it said, yeah, they have made progress, but let’s look at some of these schools that are there, so I am reading down, and they’re mentioning some of these problems. Then they say, “Imagine this. University of California, Berkeley.” And they’re looking at 1999 to 2003. “Zero white and zero black athletes graduated in that whole cohort. The only people who graduated—” the graduation rate was 20 percent. “They were all non-resident aliens.” Can you believe it?

02-00:58:05 Maggard: Jewish kid? An Israeli kid?

02-00:58:08 Cummins: Yeah, exactly. And so I sent that to Bob [Robert J.] Birgeneau and the Vice Chancellor that now has Athletics, Frank [D.] Yeary, and I said, “Is this true? I can’t believe this.” So Bob Birgeneau writes right back and he says, “Oh yeah, that’s not true. That’s absolutely false.” The next day he sends me an email with this long string of emails between Sandy Barbour and Nathan Brostrom and this guy Frank Yeary—and Foti Mellis, I guess, who does the compliance stuff. And basically the result is, yeah, it’s true. And Sandy says, “Well, didn’t do us any favors here, but it’s getting better under [Mike] Montgomery.”

02-00:59:02 Maggard: , yeah.

02-00:59:04 Cummins: Yeah. That this whole class is supposed to graduate. And I think, My God! At Cal?

02-00:59:13 Maggard: And John, you know what was a real anomaly it was Butler and Duke being in the final game this year.

02-00:59:19 Cummins: Absolutely.

02-00:59:21 Maggard: The Butler kids go to class. They’re all good kids. I haven’t missed a Final Four since 1979. I was on the basketball committee, so I go back every year. These kids in Indianapolis, they’re going to class while they’re getting ready to play at Butler. I’m saying, I said—“Are you kidding me?” This is a story

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that is never the case in college basketball. You’ve got Duke and Butler in the NCAA, which is amazing. It is remarkable, really.

02-01:00:04 Cummins: So how—it’s ten to one. We can maybe continue a little bit longer.

02-01:00:11 Maggard: No, I’m at your—I’m at your—

02-01:00:14 Cummins: Then we’ll have lunch, and then we’ll come back up here, because there’s a whole section—because of all the people I think I’m going to be talking to, you have the most breadth, depth, of this whole thing. So that’s a whole question I have, about how did we get to this point in time? Just listening to you comment about your experience, what you went through at Cal—it was a very different place then than it is now.

02-01:00:44 Maggard: It was.

02-01:00:47 Cummins: I can tell you about how we got into making this decision about going big time—you’ve got to spend money to make money.

02-01:00:55 Maggard: You’ve got to, yeah, yeah. And now I see there’s a big deficit.

02-01:00:58 Cummins: It’s huge, Dave. It’s huge. The deficit—I think I might have told you this, but it started—you were still there when they had the [Neil J.] Smelser Report, remember? They set up, [former Chancellor Chang-Lin] Tien set up that blue- ribbon committee.

02-01:01:14 Maggard: Yeah, see—Tien—you know who Tien got that from? I sent that to him. I sent that to him that I would like to start a blue ribbon deal.

02-01:01:24 Cummins: Is that right?

02-01:01:23 Maggard: Oh yeah, and you know—he immediately then appointed a blue ribbon committee. That was his deal. But I could pull that out. That’s someplace in the files—the blue ribbon thing was one that I felt that we should have a real study and a real look at where we were going in the future.

02-01:01:49 Cummins: Exactly. So I was on that committee, and that’s when the deficit started to grow. The committee said we should have a broad-based, highly competitive program. And I just showed that report to Mike Heyman. He never read it, because he was gone by then as Chancellor and probably was at the

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Smithsonian. But he said, “Where did they ever get this idea? That Cal was going to be highly competitive and excellent across the board in every sport? That is so unrealistic.” And I can’t remember—and Neil, I’ve been talking about it to Neil Smelser, who chaired that thing. Dave Osborne was on that group.

02-01:02:34 Maggard: Yeah.

02-01:02:34 Cummins: I was trying to think—I’ll bring it up. If you’re interested, I can show it to you.

02-01:02:39 Maggard: Yeah, it’s interesting.

02-01:02:44 Cummins: And one of the things they said was, first of all, if you’re going to follow through on these recommendations, you need to have a mission statement that says it, number one. Well, they never did that. Number two, you need to have a financial model for how you’re going to make this happen. And it was a very bad time budgetarily, just like it is now. And one of the things they said was that you could, for example, give Athletics a million bucks a year out of discretionary money, to give them time to start putting together a big fundraising program. But at that point they thought an endowment of $30 million—imagine this—an endowment of $30 million would handle it for Intercollegiate Athletics, okay? But they never did. A very tough time. So Tien agrees but never had any kind of written statement saying “I endorse this,” or anything. But he does agree to put $470,000 in discretionary money into the program for five years. They add three women’s sports: water polo, golf, and lacrosse. And he puts in one-time money of $170,000. I thought, “Holy God, that would never do.” Imagine, one-time money for a sport.

So anyway, these deficits started to grow. By ’96, the deficit—I wanted to talk to you about merging the departments and that whole thing too, and women, and Rec Sports, and all of that. So we’re talking about all three departments now. Men’s [Athletics] was always in the black, coming in. The women had maybe a $300,000 deficit right when you left. But by ’96 it’s $8.9 million, or something like that. Not too bad. By ’99 it’s $18 million. So Horace Mitchell, in ’96, puts together a plan that’s dependent on coming in on time, on budget. Of course it doesn’t. That creates all kinds of problems. Anyway, they were at $18 million by ’99. Berdahl’s now the Chancellor. He forgives that deficit and they sign an MOU saying, “I’m forgiving this deficit on the following conditions, one of which was you have to do a student fee referendum to support Athletics. If it doesn’t pass, you have to cut a minimum of three sports.” Kasser signed it, Horace Mitchell, and Berdahl. It doesn’t pass. It doesn’t pass. It wasn’t done very well, and it doesn’t pass. They don’t cut the sports.

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[In] 2000, Budd Cheit is asked to chair another committee, so now you’ve got the Smelser Report, you’ve got Horace Mitchell, then you’ve got the Cheit Committee with donors on it and some administrators, a relatively small committee. They basically endorse the Smelser mission statement; they say it should be broad-based, highly competitive. They come up with a plan that says you should put more money in to cover Title IX. They made some very reasonable, what appeared to be reasonable, requests. And then—and they always do this in these reports, they say, “Well, you’ve got to put together a better fundraising program.” That’s always in there. It’s kind of this fanciful thinking. Currently, they raise a lot of money, and they have to, for the Student Athlete High-Performance Center, et cetera. But it’s never enough. And a year later, in 2002, is when Tedford comes in.

02-01:07:02 Maggard: He was at Oregon.

02-01:07:03 Cummins: At Oregon, and he wasn’t paid a big chunk of money then.

02-01:07:07 Maggard: Yeah, no, I know.

02-01:07:07 Cummins: As soon as he was successful it went—

02-01:07:09 Maggard: It went, yeah.

02-01:07:10 Cummins: Exactly, through the roof. And so the deficit continues to grow. So in ’99 Berdahl forgave $18 million. By 2009, ten years later, the deficit, including the $18 million, was over $170 million dollars. So it went from $18 [million] in ’99 to $170 million in 2009. And then of course, when Athletics reported to me, from 2004 to 2006, we also had a plan to cut some sports. Not a lot, but the Development Office people were saying, “No. It’s not worth it. You’re only going to save maybe $4 million a year. It’s not worth it.” It’s a good question. I’d like to hear what you think about that. Second—so we didn’t do it. But we had money then. Now we come into this huge downturn, and faculty were upset.

02-01:08:22 Maggard: I saw that. I saw that they had taken a vote but it was non-binding.

02-01:08:27 Cummins: Yeah, it’s non-binding because the administration is in charge. When I had Athletics, Berdahl said to me, “See if you can’t get this budget under control.” Because he was really worried about it. So I said okay. If we do it, I said— part of the problem here is that there’s no transparency about the Athletics budget. It’s always made by a very small group, the AD, the Chancellor, and

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the Vice Chancellor. I said, “You can’t let these deficits continue to grow like this, and people have to see it.”

02-01:09:09 Maggard: Yeah, I know about that. I know about that, yeah.

02-01:09:11 Cummins: And some of our faculty were getting involved with them, and the Academic Senate was interested. And so I said to Bob Birgeneau, “You’re going to have to put these numbers on the table.” And that’s when we did it for the first time. It was never shared before, so they were upset about it. But there was a plan for that deficit to come down. They were making progress. It got down to, annually, about $7 million. It was up about $13.5-$14 million and it got down to $7 million. Then we come into this terrible budget time, and it jumps to $13.5 million again. And Birgeneau and Nathan Brostrom, the Vice Chancellor, were really upset about that. It couldn’t have come at a worse time. The faculty get involved; they have this resolution. And the thing about the resolution, which was too bad, was it was kind of all or nothing. Stop the subsidy, there shouldn’t be any subsidy. You can’t run a program like that without some subsidy, in my view.

02-01:10:23 Maggard: No, not now.

02-01:10:24 Cummins: You can’t. And so I’d like to get your views on all that, because you’ve dealt with this everywhere you’ve been, I’m sure.

02-01:10:34 Maggard: I don’t think you can have a big-time program and have a broad program without university subsidy—men and women, men and women, you can’t— there are so few places doing it. And I can point to all of them. You go to the Southeast Conference, some of those making huge money in football and basketball, they have huge stadiums, they’re packing the stadium every year, they have huge alumni support. But I think you have to have some semblance of not overdoing it. And I think that you’ve got to—I think that there are times when you have to—you don’t want to do it. You don’t want to cut sports. Everybody’s unhappy about it. The athletic director will be unhappy about it and will spend restless nights and sleepless nights about it. And the alums who—

02-01:11:36 Cummins: Like that sport.

02-01:11:37 Maggard: —with that sport—I cut wrestling when I was here. And who was it, the guy out here—the state representative out in Concord—B it starts with a B.

02-01:11:59 Cummins: What year? Well, I know who you mean.

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02-01:12:03 Maggard: Anyhow, he was—

02-01:12:03 Cummins: Oh, [Daniel E.] Boatwright.

02-01:12:04 Maggard: Boatwright, Boatwright. Dan Boatwright. He’s calling me saying, “Hey, you shouldn’t be doing this,” blah, blah, blah. Now there was no great interest around the conference, but you still had people who wanted it.

02-01:12:22 Cummins: Yes, you do. Right.

02-01:12:23 Maggard: Even though they may not be willing to give a lot of money.

02-01:12:26 Cummins: Put the money into it.

02-01:12:28 Maggard: Yeah, exactly. And so it’s one of those things that—if you looked at it, it’s a little bit like Title IX. What’s the interest level on the campus? Who’s going to support it? Do you have some way of supporting it?

I’ll never forget when I went to the crew people and told them—we had a luncheon down at Trader Vic’s. Don Blessing was there, and I said, “Look guys. Crew is going to disappear.” Blessing hit the table like you couldn’t believe and said, “If the university can’t support us after going to the Olympics,” and all this kind of—I said, “Don, it’s not going to happen. We’ve got to start endowing it.” Well, a lot of the guys said, “We don’t want to put it in endowment, we want to do it now.” And I said, “You’ve got to put a little bit in the endowment. It has to be endowed.” Well, they’re very angry. But I said, “I’m just telling you what the reality is of it.”

So those are the things that happen, and if you don’t have people who are willing to step up on that kind of thing, then you have no choice. You have no choice, and everybody is unhappy. And the other part of it is—here was the answer that I gave when people said, “I want to start this sport.” I said, “Okay. If you can get enough people who will fund this program for at least four years, scholarships for at least four years, we’ll start it. Otherwise—we won’t do it.” “Four years, that’s a long time!” I’d say, “Yeah. That’s when I’ll do it. You want to start it one year, and the next year it’s going to be the same thing. So you’ve got to bring the money to the table. We’ll put it in, and it’s an endowment, and this cycle of kids who come in will take care of it.” Well, nobody wants to do that.

02-01:14:41 Cummins: Exactly.

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02-01:14:42 Maggard: But that—I figured that that was a challenge. I said, “Okay. I’ll start it if you’ll do this. You get the people who will do this.” Well, they’ll get one or two people and say, “We’ll give you $5000.” Can’t do it. So it’s an unpopular thing to do.

02-01:15:00 Cummins: Yeah, but otherwise, I don’t see how you can deal with faculty concerns.

02-01:15:06 Maggard: You can’t. There’s no way. And then the other part of it is that the faculty always looks at—I mean, you know, Houston had to have a subsidy. There’s no way—and it’s one of those deals that—I’ve looked at a lot of these programs around the country, even the ones that are some of the hotshot programs are still getting some university subsidy, and primarily it’s because of the fact that you’ve got the Title IX issue. That’s a big part of it. If you go to places like Texas Tech, they’ll draw on women’s basketball. Texas, they’ll draw on women’s basketball. At Tennessee they’ll draw on women’s basketball. At Waco, they’ll draw on women’s—now, you start looking around and say how much are you going to make on women’s basketball? Compared to what the costs are, it’s going to be a pittance. People don’t realize the travel stuff, the coaches, the scholarships, and the whole thing. When you start writing it out—now, there is one thing I’ll say about this, John. When Kerley was here, we went through a very extensive budget thing with the students. They always had that student fee—

02-01:16:29 Cummins: Yeah, the student fee, the Reg Fee.

02-01:16:29 Maggard: Mike [Michael J.] Aguirre was one of them. So we always had a student intern in our department who came to the staff meetings—it’s a pain in the butt, but we did it. Just so it could be the transparent kind of thing. And we might have an advocate from the student side. You know, we’re paying these student fees. And I have to say that Bob [Kerley] was pretty smart in that part of it. It caused a lot of work, it was a lot of work, and sometimes it was always—it’s a zero-based budget. You start out and build the budget. It’s not based on what you’re doing right now, the whole bit. So you have to justify everything that you’re doing. But see, you’re in this—I could never believe that a football coach could make $5 million a year.

02-01:17:32 Cummins: Absolutely.

02-01:17:33 Maggard: Unbelievable. And [John] Calipari at Kentucky’s making over $4 [million]. [Mike] Krzyzewski’s making almost $5 [million]. Private school, but okay. But, John, these guys are making—it’s become almost like a corporate deal.

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02-01:17:56 Cummins: Oh, it has.

02-01:17:57 Maggard: A place like Vanderbilt, a really fine place academically, the whole thing. We played in the NIT a few years ago when I was at Houston, and I went—they’d redone the basketball offices. I would have thought I walked into Chevron! I mean, it was unbelievable! It was these huge, big glass doors, and I thought, Vanderbilt? This is what they were doing for basketball. They’ve got a good basketball coach, this guy’s good. And Vanderbilt’s a good school. But geez, I walked in there and I said, “Wow!”

02-01:18:44 Cummins: Well, my wife—we work out at Rec Sports—and she said, “Oh, I wish I had a camera today, because the car that was parked in front of her was a big black Mercedes, license plate, UC COACH. [laughs] She said, “That could have been the cover for your book!”

02-01:19:07 Maggard: Unbelievable!

02-01:19:08 Cummins: Exactly. You think, what kind of ego!

02-01:19:09 Maggard: Unbelievable. You’ve got to be—that’s the way it is.

02-01:19:14 Cummins: It is.

02-01:19:15 Maggard: That’s the way it is. I go down to Miami and—here I drive a Ford because you try to be a little bit invisible, a little bit. So I go down to Miami and Tad Foote says, “Well, Dave, in your contract you have two cars. One for Carolyn, one for you. Ed Smith’s on our board, and I think he would be hurt if you won’t take two Cadillacs from him.” I said, “Tad, it doesn’t make any difference to me.” Miami it was just—it’s not a big deal. If I had driven a Jag they wouldn’t have said one thing!

02-01:20:00 Cummins: Not a thing.

02-01:20:00 Maggard: They would have said, “Well, these guys are chintzing.” So I’ve got two big old Cadillacs, but the president is saying—

02-01:20:13 Cummins: Yeah, you’d better drive these cars.

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02-01:20:16 Maggard: He’s—Ed is probably not going to feel real good unless you take the Cadillacs from his place. I’ll tell you, John, it was a totally different world at Miami. Private university. It was one of those things that—it was so different. When I started at Miami, I was telling newspaper people some of our business about this and this and this. And Tad says, “Dave, you don’t have to do that.” [chuckles] “We are a private university.”

02-01:20:50 Cummins: Yeah, not here, not here! [laughs]

02-01:20:53 Maggard: He said, “No. You don’t have to do that. You don’t have to indicate how many people are going on the bowl trip. You don’t have to indicate what the expenses are. You don’t have to do that.” I said, “Okay. All right.”

02-01:21:06 Cummins: That’s what Steve [Steven B.] Sample, you know, at USC said, because he came from Buffalo, and he said, “Man, night and day as a president, public versus private.”

02-01:21:16 Maggard: It is. It really is. It’s unbelievable. It really becomes one of those things—you know, Dennis Erickson is a coach while I’m there. And Tad did not like him one bit. He really didn’t like him. Tad was a Yale guy, and he’d been the dean of the law school up at Washington University. I guess that’s in Missouri, isn’t it?

02-01:21:45 Cummins: Yeah.

02-01:21:47 Maggard: I think it is, but anyhow—Tad was a real academic guy, but he also knew that in Miami you’ve got to win. And so we won the national championship. All right, now—Dennis is kind of hot. Alabama’s kind of saying we’re interested in him because their guy just retired. I sat down with Dennis and said, “Dennis, what would make you happy?” And he told me, and I said, “Well, all right.” We put stuff down, this, and this, and this. So I called Tad and I said, “Tad, this is what I think we should do for Dennis.” “Dave, are you out of your mind? No way.” I said, “Okay. You’re the boss, but let me tell you something, Tad. He’s still the lowest-paid coach in the state of Florida. is making a lot more and is making a lot more. We just won the national championship. Do you want to run this guy off?” He said, “I don’t like it.” I said, “Tad, let him play it out. Play it out.” And he said, “No. I don’t want to pay him that much.” I said, “Okay.” The next morning he calls me up. “Do it.”

02-01:23:23 Cummins: Do it! [laughs]

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02-01:23:26 Maggard: That was it. That was it.

02-01:23:28 Cummins: Amazing.

02-01:23:30 Maggard: It was one of those things that, I told him, “Tad. You know the reality of this Miami community. And they are tough, man.” You know Miami’s got a lot of gamblers—see, if you don’t beat the spread, those guys are unhappy. See, that’s the terrible thing about it. You might beat somebody by twenty points, and the spread was twenty-one. You guys looked terrible. Well—but no, it was that way.

And that same year, Ken Hoffman and [Ken] Behring owned the Seahawks. So Ken calls me, and he says, “Dave, how would you like to be president of the Seahawks?” And I said, “What’s the deal, Kenny? Do you want Dennis? Is that it?” And he said, “Well, we’re interested in him.” And I said, “First of all, there’s no way I could leave here after the first year. And the other part of it, Dennis is not ready.” He said, “You’re just saying that.” I said, “No. I’d tell you if he were. He’s not ready.” And Dennis is one of these guys when he drinks his whole personality changes. He’s got a problem. He’s got a real problem. And there were times when I’d have to say, “Hey Dennis”—we’d go to an alumni thing—“you’ve got to knock it off.” So now I leave and go up to Atlanta, and I’m doing the Olympic thing. Or else, a couple of years later, whatever, Ken calls me again, and he says, “Can you get ahold of Dennis for us?” And I said, “Yeah. I can do that.” And he said, “What do you think?” I said, “Kenny, Dennis Erickson is one of the best game-day coaches I’ve ever seen. But he’s got a problem that you need to be aware of, and you guys need to get it squared away. He drinks too much, and it affects him.” “Dave, it’s the pros. It’s the pros. We’re not worried about that kind of stuff.” “All right.” They hire him.

02-01:26:00 Cummins: A big mistake.

02-01:26:02 Maggard: Five months later—he’s never coached a day. He gets a DUI that—he’s unconscious. Unconscious! Now he’s got to go to AA, he’s got to be tested every week or whatever the crap it is, and he loses his license for a period of time. He hasn’t coached a game yet. And when I saw Ken again, I said, “Kenny—I told you, man.” And so apparently he knocked it off. They fired him; he got the Oregon State job. And I saw him at Oregon State because my daughter was going to school up there, and so I was up there, and we visited for a while. I asked somebody—“Is Dennis okay?” “Yeah. He’s okay but I think he’s starting to—a little bit.” He goes to 49ers; he’s at Arizona State now. He’ll be under pressure this next year to win. And I’m hearing that he’s

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kind of back into it. But you know, at Florida State, the guy who’s the president there now—he played for Bobby.

02-01:27:34 Cummins: Is that right?

02-01:27:37 Maggard: Oh yeah, way back—he played for Bobby Bowden. Do you think Bobby— now Bobby’s gone, but he’s eighty years old. But no, this guy was a state representative. He got them all kinds of building stuff, and the way that the stadium is, it’s curved around—it’s nice. They put some academic stuff in and got the stadium stuff all done. It’s—I will tell you, John, it’s an amazing thing what some of these states will do. The guy that—Kevin Sumlin—Tennessee interviewed him this year. Nobody knew that. He called me about it and said, “Dave, I asked the athletic director what kind of pool of money they had for the assistants.” He said, “Don’t worry about it. Whatever you need.” They’re paying some of these assistants $600,000. Unreal.

02-01:28:45 Cummins: You know, they’re paying coaches in up to $200,000.

02-01:28:53 Maggard: Unreal, isn’t it?

02-01:28:53 Cummins: This is at a time when there’s—

02-01:28:57 Maggard: They’re cutting back on everything.

02-01:28:57 Cummins: They’re cutting back on everything.

02-01:28:58 Maggard: Yeah, no—it’s insane. John, it’s really insane.

02-01:29:02 Cummins: So let’s quit. Look at this, it’s after one—we’ll go get lunch.

[End Audio File 2]

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Interview 2: July 15, 2010 Audio File 3

03-00:01:09 Cummins: This is the continuation of an interview with Dave Maggard. Today is July 15, 2010. Before turning on the recorder, we were talking about [UCLA Chancellor] Chuck Young and the Pac-10 expansion.

03-00:01:27 Maggard: I think we talked about this whole business of the expansion, and I think some of these e-mails that you shared are a pretty good indicator that I don’t think any of this would have taken place had we had the people that we talked about—people like Mike Heyman, [Stanford President] Don Kennedy, Chuck Young, and—probably two or three others. But I think that those were probably the powerhouse people in the conference at that time.

03-00:02:00 Cummins: Right, right.

03-00:01:59 Maggard: And I think that there was a lot of discussion at that time about several people coming into the conference, and the presidents just said we’re fine where we are. Leave it be. I would guess that none of this would have occurred.

03-00:02:19 Cummins: So what do you attribute the fact that it is occurring now—?

03-00:02:24 Maggard: Oh, I think money, plus the fact that I don’t think you have—we talked about this a little bit before. I think that—you had a different set of presidents and chancellors at the time, I think, people who viewed the University in a very different way. I think the academic part was always first. I think there was, obviously, thinking about money but not to the extent, I think, that we have today. So I think it’s attributable to the dollar deal, chasing the dollar deal.

I don’t know the Chancellors that have been at Berkeley the last few years, but my guess is that none of them have been like Mike Heyman, from the standpoint of enjoying the athletic part but still keeping a pretty close watch on the financial part of it, the expenditures, salaries, that would be more of a match for the total university. In other words, I think that Heyman was a real faculty person, I mean, he came from the faculty part of it, so I think he thought more like a faculty person, not to say that he didn’t think like an administrator as well. But I think his background in teaching and all, and especially at Cal, probably had some real influence.

Now, my guess is that based upon what the coaches are making today and what’s happening with all the teams, more travel, more recruiting, more people—if you look at a basketball staff now, if you look at a game, you’ll see more suits now than—

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03-00:04:23 Cummins: Right. A lot more.

03-00:04:28 Maggard: [chuckles] —than you see players. It’s so different. There’s a director of operations, there’s a guy doing the film stuff, there’s somebody else doing the camp stuff. So all this stuff—you’ve had a lot of creep that’s taken place, and expansion creep, so that everybody’s tried to stay up with everybody else. Really. And some of the places can afford it. Some can afford it. Texas, for example, can afford it.

03-00:04:56 Cummins: Now why? Why is that?

03-00:05:00 Maggard: Well, first of all because they have a stadium that’s almost a hundred thousand. They fill the place every time they play. They also have a very involved alumni in terms of support of athletics. But I think, more than anything else, it’s because of the unbelievable interest in football at the University of Texas. They’ve had a lot of winning under Mack [Brown]. They’ve really won a lot. And I think that they’ve allowed it to expand. Now there’s also, in every state there’s a competition between universities. Like Cal and UCLA, sister universities, so to speak. That’s true in Texas too, although they’re not as closely aligned in terms of the management in the regions and so on and so forth. Texas and Texas A&M are highly competitive with one another. And so when one gets something, the other one feels that they have to have it too, to compete. And the alums feel the same way. I was told by someone who ran the alumni office at A&M for about twenty-five years that if we go to the alumni and say, “We need this to compete with Texas,” then usually they’ll respond and help.

So I think it’s been the absence, I think this creep has been the absence of people like—even though there were a number of things that I disagreed with Mike Heyman about, I had tremendous respect in terms of his feeling about the University, what it should be. Now, probably in order to compete in a way that you’d want to, you probably need somebody in between, somebody like Mike Heyman and whoever’s there now, or Berdahl, or whatever. Berdahl was at Texas, and I think he understood what the culture was there, and he was probably a little more the other way in terms of giving in to the financial needs of the Athletic Department.

So I think the whole landscape has changed a lot, an awful lot, and I think it’s becoming much more like we talked about a number of years ago, where you have the super conferences and then you have a number of places that have dropped football. They no longer can afford it. The money’s going to a few— the BCS, the bowl money, the television money. I think this last time Texas really played the Pac-10 and got what they wanted from the Big Twelve or now the Big Ten. I think the Pac-10 made a huge mistake by trying to do what

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they were trying to do, and it was all based upon what they thought they could get with a television contract.

03-00:08:08 Cummins: Yes, right. Do you know the new Pac-10 commissioner, Larry Scott?

03-00:08:13 Maggard: I don’t. I know that—I’ve only met him, and I think—people said that, the presidents and chancellors said they wanted something different in the office, in the Pac-10, so they brought a guy in who was—I think running women’s tennis.

03-00:08:32 Cummins: Tennis, that’s right.

03-00:08:35 Maggard: Tennis stuff. I think the thing—I think that not being familiar with the intercollegiate athletic landscape, so to speak, I don’t think he realized how tough and vicious places like Texas could be in terms of—fairness in the game is whatever we can get. That’s what fair. [chuckles] Really.

03-00:09:04 Cummins: Yes, yes. Exactly. And they did.

03-00:09:06 Maggard: And they did. They really played the Pac-10, I thought, to their great, great benefit. And it’s like I told a few of the athletic directors in the Pac-10. If Texas comes in, they’re going to be the eight hundred pound gorilla in the room all the time, but they’re not going to be second, they’re not going to be second best. So Texas worked it to their advantage, and what does Colorado do for the Pac-10? I don’t know.

03-00:09:33 Cummins: And Utah.

03-00:09:34 Maggard: What does Utah do? I don’t know that either one of them do an awful lot to help the Pac-10. And I think that there are schools within the Pac-10 right now who are really counting on football to get them out of the deficit that they’re—I don’t think that Cal—I don’t think that’s been their thinking for the last few years, that hitting it big in football would make them whole financially, but I believe that is the thought now, and it may happen.

03-00:10:03 Cummins: That’s the hope. That was the hope. I think so.

03-00:10:04 Maggard: And that could happen. I don’t know. That could happen, but they’re going to have to be in a BCS bowl. The thing about it is is that their attendance has been really, really very, very good under Tedford. Tedford has won a lot of

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games. He just hasn’t gotten over the hump in terms of what the expectations were that we’re really going to get a home run. And so—I think they’re still waiting on that one.

03-00:10:33 Cummins: We’ll see.

03-00:10:34 Maggard: Yeah, yeah. And I read the report, John. [Report of the Chancellor’s Committee on Intercollegiate Athletics, July 6, 2010]

03-00:10:36 Cummins: Yeah, I was going to get into that.

03-00:10:38 Maggard: I read the report about the deficit at Cal and so on, and I think you’re seeing a lot of that around the country. I know —when I went to University of Houston they were talking about the possibility of closing down athletics. The year before they were 0 and 11 in football and they were really, really down financially. So three Regents told me, as soon as I got on campus, that if we can’t get it going we’re thinking about canning the whole thing.

03-00:11:10 Cummins: This is after they hired you? [laughs]

03-00:11:13 Maggard: Exactly. And so it really became one of those things that we’d begin to have success in football, still spending quite a bit of university money, but with the Regents’ approval saying we need to get this back. This can help us get to... They want to be a Tier I university. There are only—I think there are only two Tier I universities in the state of Texas—maybe three, maybe Rice. Rice maybe and A&M and Texas. Other than that I don’t think there are any other Division One—or Tier I universities being a public university at least. So their big deal is, “We’ve got to become a Tier I university.” And I think that they believe that athletics could help them, and I think that’s probably true. I don’t know what cost they’re going to have to pay to get that, and in the state of Texas they’re going to have Texas and Texas A&M continuing to try to keep them down. They simply don’t want that competition. But it’s important for University of Houston—having been a commuter school for a pretty long period of time, had success in football and basketball a number of years ago, and then they really fell into decline. But they’re trying to catch up. Now—I think the guy that I hired as football coach a couple of years ago, I think he’s a star. And I think he’s done very well, and I think that they’ve got a coach there—I think about as good as they can get. He’s really good, and if they can’t get it going now, then I think they’re going to have—I think it’s going to be tough sledding for them.

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03-00:13:10 Cummins: The interesting thing in the report to me, one of them, was the fact—they say somewhere in there that Cal is at the far end of the spectrum vis-à-vis—

03-00:13:20 Maggard: They’re spending more than anybody else.

03-00:13:20 Cummins: Yeah, that was amazing. That I did not—

03-00:13:23 Maggard: I read about that. It used to be that Cal was always complaining about UCLA spending all this money, and, “My gosh, how does Chuck Young let them continue to do this?”

03-00:13:33 Cummins: Exactly.

03-00:13:35 Maggard: And they have a great advantage, and Cal was way behind, way behind everybody with the exception of Washington State and Oregon State and Oregon, but the other ones—Washington, UCLA, and Stanford and USC and so on—very different. And that’s what struck me about reading the report was well, John, that Cal being at the top in terms of what their expenditures are, and so on. And I think that, again, looking at this thing and seeing what they said in the report—I think this was one of the things that got Sandy [Barbour] into a little trouble at Tulane. This is why I think they let her go at Tulane was—

03-00:14:17 Cummins: Not managing.

03-00:14:18 Maggard: Not managing. And I think Sandy’s smart. I’m not so sure that she has a great understanding of how the whole management part works in Athletics. In other words, there are some really tough things that you have to do, and now I’ve seen that she’s done some. I see they let Braun go. Mike Montgomery is a very good coach. We’ll see what happens there. But I think the day-to-day management stuff is probably not one of those things that Sandy’s strong at. I don’t know her well. I know her only by reputation and I know her only by— Houston is in the same conference as Tulane, so she was at Tulane before she went to Notre Dame, with Kevin White. Kevin White was there as the athletic director. Sandy was his assistant. She got the job. She had it for three years, and they let her go. Kevin picked her up and took her to Notre Dame with him.

So I think the whole management part of it—it is a very, very tough thing right now for presidents and chancellors and athletic directors to have the discipline of just simply saying, “We can’t afford that number of sports. We can’t afford to do this.” Now—I think the other thing that I thought about

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when I was reading the Cal report was—and I think this is what’s changed. My understanding is that it’s changed. When I was at Cal we had no scholarships for crew. My understanding is that crew now has scholarships, and that’s only been told to me by some crew folks. We didn’t have scholarships for rugby. My understanding is that they now have scholarships for rugby. I’m not sure.

Now, the thing that I felt was really, really important was to start the endowment programs for each one of these, and I think I told you this story before—when I met with the crew people and told them—

03-00:16:24 Cummins: Yes.

03-00:16:24 Maggard: —that their Olympic sports are going to disappear unless we start endowing them. And they were unhappy about that, but it’s gone a long way in terms of becoming endowed. The same thing was true in swimming and water polo. The same thing was true in rugby. All these guys like Don Fisher, Ned Spieker, Rick Cronk, and Warren Hellman were guys that I sat down with and said—“I need to have a million dollars to start this endowment with swimming and water polo.” Well, they were smarter than I was from this standpoint—“We’ll give it to you but it’ll be matching. You’ve got to raise a million, then we’ll give it to you—we’ll give you dollar for dollar.”

03-00:17:07 Cummins: Interesting.

03-00:17:09 Maggard: All right. So that was the way that we started. So there was an incentive there. There was an incentive there—coaches don’t like that, by the way. That’s one of those things that they—

03-00:17:17 Cummins: No, of course they don’t. Of course they don’t like raising money.

03-00:17:19 Maggard: They don’t like that, but it really becomes one of those things, again, of the management part of it, of managing the coaches and the expectations on the outside. So you’re going to have to take some hard positions sometimes.

03-00:17:30 Cummins: So you leave, Bockrath comes in—he was there for a very short period of time, anyway, so I don’t know what he thought about endowments. But John Kasser—at least from what I’ve been told, and I have to confirm this with him—is that he wasn’t so interested in endowments.

03-00:18:03 Maggard: He wasn’t.

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03-00:18:04 Cummins: He was interested in operational money.

03-00:18:05 Maggard: Right, right.

03-00:18:06 Cummins: And Sandy comes in. Well, then there’s [Stephen C.] Gladstone. Gladstone did believe in endowments. Again, he was only there for three years. And then Sandy comes in. At one point, I don’t know whether she was in favor of endowments or not, but the fundraising approach appeared to change to what they were calling transactional fundraising, through seat licenses, you know, “You give us money, we give you something.” That was certainly true under John Kasser too, in terms of the seating for the Haas Pavilion.

03-00:18:38 Maggard: Right.

03-00:18:39 Cummins: And of course then that lets the coaches off the hook. They don’t have to do it. So now you see this coming back, in this report and in the other—the Academic Senate Task Force on Intercollegiate Athletics [August 30, 2010]. The Senate report explicitly recommends that budget accountability and fundraising responsibilities be built into coaches’ contracts.

03-00:19:15 Maggard: The endowment part of it?

03-00:19:16 Cummins: Yeah, in other words, you have responsibility to raise some money. You have responsibility—another thing that they recommended—you have responsibility as a coach to maintain your budget. You just can’t be going over budget, and if you do there will be penalties associated with it.

03-00:19:29 Maggard: Right, right. That to me, John—the way that I saw these “Olympic” sports surviving was only through endowments. I don’t think—unless you have a place like University of Texas, where you’re filling the stadium every week— 90,000-plus people at a premium price. Their budget is over $120 million. It’s huge, it’s huge! And they’re spending more per student than any other university in the country. Ohio State has about the same budget, but they have a bigger program. But the point of it is—that’s long-term thinking. If you don’t have the long-term thinking—

03-00:20:11 Cummins: That’s not going to happen.

03-00:20:13 Maggard: Forget it. Now what happens is that most athletic directors come in and say, “Hey, if I don’t show something then people are going to be all over my rear

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end, so I don’t care about endowments. I’ve got to make this thing work right now.” I can tell you this, there was some real resistance to it other than the fact that—

03-00:20:34 Cummins: Oh, there was, huh?

03-00:20:35 Maggard: Oh yeah, no question about it. This was one of those things that the guys said, “Hey, we want success right now. We want to go to Henley this year. We want to put the money in.” I said, “Fine. We’ll go, but add on—give an add- on. You’ve got to give an add-on.” And I’ll never forget Don Blessing hit the ceiling! And I said, “Hey, Don—say whatever you want to say. But it’s gone. It’s not going to be here.” And I said the same thing—and like I said, John, if you’re going to be an athletic director and do the hard things, you’re not always going to have the coaches in agreement with what you’re doing. They’re looking at it like, “Well, Dave, I want to go to the NCAAs this year, and we want to have success.” You’ve got to have some kind of in-between there. And my understanding—and I haven’t been able to keep up with it—is that—see, I got Bob [Robert W.] Witter and some of these other guys on the rugby thing, and they were on board. They got on board. But you know what it required, John? A bunch of meetings with these guys, and I don’t know where the rugby thing is right now. Jack could tell me, Jack Clark. I hired him a long time ago. Jack’s a good guy.

And I don’t know where that is right now in terms of the endowment, but the one thing that I wanted to do before I left was to start endowments in every one of the “Olympic” sports, so-called Olympic sports. And again, the coaches had to participate in this. Some coaches are better at it than others. Some have a great resentment about it. But I say that in a place like Cal, I think you have to have that. I think the endowments are really, really important, and I think it’s the only way that Stanford has been able to keep the kind of broad-based program that they’ve been able to keep. Now at UCLA, Dan [Daniel G.] Guerrero is a good friend. I know him very well, at UCLA. I was with him at the Final Four. When I say, “with him,”—after having been on the basketball committee you’re invited back every year, and Dan’s the head of the basketball committee this year. So I talk to him off and on. They have to meet their budget. They can’t go over their budget, from what he’s told me.

03-00:23:10 Cummins: Yes, that’s a very consistent in that sport.

03-00:23:12 Maggard: So he’s telling me that he—

03-00:23:14 Cummins: Pete Dalis told me the same thing.

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03-00:23:15 Maggard: Yeah, and I saw Pete, as a matter of fact, two weeks ago.

03-00:23:19 Cummins: Oh, did you?

03-00:23:19 Maggard: Yeah, we had dinner when they had this induction into the hall of fame, down in LA. Pete was in that class, along with , Stanford; Mike McGee, who was at USC and then went to South Carolina; and Rick Bay, who had been at Oregon and then at Ohio State and then back to San Diego. So we all had dinner the night before and talked about— Sam Jankovich was the other guy, and Sam was at Washington State and then he was at Miami before I came to Miami. But Sam was like, “Boy, Dave. I would never want to do this right now. These people are nuts. Can you image these football coaches make $4 million a year? I can’t imagine it.” And I said, “Sam, the presidents and chancellors, when they took control of the NCAA, they said all this stuff was going to go away. It’s no better.”

03-00:24:22 Cummins: It’s reversed. Exactly.

03-00:24:23 Maggard: I said, “It’s no better. They gave in to the alumni maybe even more than the athletic directors.” [chuckles] So I said, “It’s just been on that path. Presidents and chancellors aren’t above politics too.”

03-00:24:37 Cummins: Of course not.

03-00:24:39 Maggard: They get their job by being that way.

03-00:24:41 Cummins: Can you say a little bit more about that?

03-00:25:06 Maggard: Essentially, what they did is they excluded the faculty reps and the athletic directors from the convention.

03-00:25:15 Cummins: In ‘87—

03-00:25:16 Maggard: Yes, I think that’s when it was.

03-00:25:18 Cummins: In Dallas, right? The one in Dallas, or was it another one?

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03-00:25:21 Maggard: I don’t know what it was, but they put together this executive committee of presidents and chancellors. Mike might have been on that.

03-00:25:27 Cummins: Yes, he was.

03-00:25:28 Maggard: I’m not sure, but I think he might have been on that. They started the Knight Commission [on Intercollegiate Athletics]. This was supposed to be—this is not going to happen now, under the Knight Commission we’re going to look at the academics, we’re going to look at the runaway costs that are taking place in athletics, it’s out of control—all those kinds of things. Well, I don’t think the presidents and chancellors have done any better than what the faculty reps and the athletic directors were doing.

I think all of us moaned and groaned when we went to the NCAA convention, and it was long, and people got up and spoke laboriously, and the whole thing. I think, in retrospect, it was a real mistake to do away with that. And I think that what happened is that, one, you had the faculty input. There’s no faculty input now, very, very little. Very little. It’s almost non-existent. Now I think it would depend upon the place, but let’s just take, for example, Conference USA. The faculty reps were, essentially, subservient to the athletic directors. It was one of those things, and subservient is not the right word. I think the input now, from the faculty, is pretty minimal around the country. And I think that would depend upon the conference and the place. But one, their voice has been lost. And the faculty have a very different view, in most cases, than athletic directors. Athletic directors are much more influenced by power coaches, and alumni to a certain extent.

I don’t think any of that has changed. I think the presidents and chancellors are as prone to the excesses—they may not call it that—but I would say that they are as prone to the excesses as the athletic directors were previously. This whole business of the presidents and chancellors running the NCAA—I don’t think has caused any slowdown at all. I think it’s all been rhetoric. You read all these reports, these reports come out—we’ve got to do a better job on this and that, and so on and so forth.

One of the committees that I was on, we dealt a lot with this APR [Academic Progress Reports]. And I think the APR, I think, is helpful. There are some nuances about it that are a problem. In other words, when a kid transfers or when a kid drops out, whatever—he’s got to be in good standing or you get discounted, and so on. But I think it has put some pressure on the coaches in terms of recruiting, and I think it’s probably helped the athletic directors a bit. But I think that was more—just the executive director of the NCAA at the time, pushing it. And he’s passed away, Miles Brand, and so that’s gone. But I just don’t think there’s enough—a lot of this stuff comes through committees,

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but you don’t have the convention where people speak to new legislation and what’s really on their mind about intercollegiate athletics.

03-00:29:05 Cummins: When did that stop?

03-00:29:05 Maggard: I can’t remember the year.

03-00:29:07 Cummins: Okay, I’ll find it.

03-00:29:08 Maggard: I can’t remember the exact year, but I think it’s evolved to a much greater extent, and so even though a lot of people looked at it as a real pain—

All right, we’re going to go to the convention, and we’re going to sit there for five days, and we’re going to listen to all these people here and here and here. I think it was helpful in terms of people exchanging ideas and people getting up and speaking their mind about what’s taking place around the country. That’s not happening now. There’s very little of that.

03-00:29:43 Cummins: Interesting point.

03-00:29:45 Maggard: It comes through the conferences now, to some extent, but you can see around the country, you can see what’s happened in terms of the financial aspect of athletic programs. I think, John, there are very few programs around the country that are going to be able to make it on their own without subsidy from the university in some way. I just don’t think they can, with the size of the programs, I think the whole suggestion that I read in the report was—well, maybe what we should do is agree upon a number that we’re going to support the athletic program, and beyond that we’re not going to do that.

03-00:30:17 Cummins: Five million.

03-00:30:19 Maggard: Yeah, I think they said $5-to-7 million, but I think they settled on maybe it should be $5 [million] and then maybe that should be—

03-00:30:27 Cummins: Yeah, it only takes them till 2014 to do it.

03-00:30:28 Maggard: Yeah.

03-00:30:29 Cummins: Now, that was the same agreement that they put together back in 2005. When I had Athletics we set up this University Athletics Board.

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03-00:30:38 Maggard: Now was that with Gladstone?

03-00:30:42 Cummins: That was with Sandy. Sandy had just come in.

03-00:30:44 Maggard: Sandy, okay. I got you.

03-00:30:45 Cummins: Steve was there from 2001 to 2004; then Sandy came in. Right at the time that Birgeneau came in, almost—very close. That was really the first time—and this is an interesting difference between Berkeley and UCLA—that the faculty ever saw the budgets for Intercollegiate Athletics.

03-00:31:06 Maggard: Here at Berkeley?

03-00:31:07 Cummins: At Berkeley. At UCLA, the Senate there had a committee for Athletics, and Pete Dalis was telling me—from forever—that budget every year went before that Academic Senate committee for their review. Well, we never had anything like that, so it was easier—

03-00:31:25 Maggard: Let me tell you what we did have though, John, which was interesting. And Bob Kerley really started this, and that was we had a student intern in the department every year. And the student intern had access to everything.

03-00:31:40 Cummins: Yeah, for the Reg Fee.

03-00:31:42 Maggard: For the Reg Fee, but—

03-00:31:45 Cummins: Yeah, so that they had access to the budget.

03-00:31:45 Maggard: To the whole budget. And then the other part of it was Bob Kerley—and Bob Kerley looked at it very carefully. We met a lot, in terms of justification, and there were some years—.

03-00:31:58 Cummins: Oh yeah, well, there was never an issue. You weren’t running those deficits.

03-00:32:00 Maggard: No, we weren’t, and in some cases—Well, but it was one of those things that I knew very well that Heyman wouldn’t buy it, and in some cases, John, we had to start out with a zero-based budget, and build—It was a pain to go through, but at the same time, that’s the discipline part of it. If you go through some of

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those processes that are painful, and there are a lot of places that really aren’t doing that right now, because they have the money to do it. Texas A&M has spent a truckload of money, I mean a truckload of money—

03-00:32:43 Cummins: It’s their own money? Or are they raising it?

03-00:32:46 Maggard: Well, what they’re doing is that it’s bond stuff that they’re going to pay off through gate receipts, through suites, suite revenue and so on. But they have a big, big debt. They have a big debt right now. And so that’s what’s happening, and Ohio State had the same thing, but Ohio State’s going to be able to pay it off.

03-00:33:08 Cummins: So the thing that puzzles me is—why is it that when you were there, Mike was Chancellor, this discipline was there? Those budgets were held. Now there was no question, and I want to get your comments on this too—you come in in the early seventies, at that point in time, or shortly after, they create the Department of Rec. Sports, they pull it out of Physical Education, there’s Women’s Intercollegiate Athletics, there’s lots of discussion about should they be merged, shouldn’t they be merged. What’s the best organizational framework?

03-00:33:45 Maggard: Yeah, right.

03-00:33:47 Cummins: And you have Physical Education. So I’ve seen—I’ve gone back, I’ve looked at those minutes. I haven’t looked at all of them—there’s a lot there. But there is nevertheless, despite all that, and as I said, we’ll go back to it—there was that discipline. And then it seems to go away. It’s like now there is a fear of doing that. These two reports both—they give the Chancellor options. Here’s what you can do. There’s a great reluctance, and that was certainly true under Bob Berdahl, and we’ll see what Bob Birgeneau does. I don’t know, because he’s coming up now to make this decision. Why is that?

03-00:34:36 Maggard: I think it has to do with the personality and who the people are. Like I said before, I think a guy like Mike Heyman was steeped in—. I’ll never forget, there’s a guy—I don’t know if he’s still on the faculty at Boalt—Paul Hober. Do you know the name at all?

03-00:34:59 Cummins: I know the name, yeah.

03-00:34:59 Maggard: Okay. Paul used to live next door when we were students, and we used to work out together. He’d played football. I lost track of him for a while. But anyhow, he told me one time, “If Heyman says the budget and expenditures

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are okay, I’m okay with it because I have a lot of respect for him. Whatever he says is okay. What you guys are doing is fine by me. I’m A-okay with it.” Now, the other thing that we tried to do, and some of it was a little late.

03-00:35:31 Cummins: [microphone static] I’m going to just stop this right now and put the next memory card in. Otherwise I’ll forget.

[End Audio File 3]

[Begin Audio File 4]

04-00:00:01 Cummins: Okay, we’re all set. [microphone static] This is a continuation of the interview with Dave Maggard on July 15. I just changed the memory card.

04-00:00:12 Maggard: [Repetitious material deleted.]

We started this mentoring program, assigning athletes to these faculty people so they get to know them, and we shared everything with a relatively small group of people. The other thing that was interesting—I don’t think Mike liked this very much, and I can understand why—is Glenn Seaborg and I became really pretty good friends, pretty close friends. And I think the problem is that Glenn continued to come in to talk about athletics, and what he had done, with the Chancellor.

04-00:01:49 Cummins: And that drove Mike nuts. [chuckles] We went to the Rose Bowl, we went to the NCAAs and we won.

04-00:01:58 Maggard: And Glenn was—that was kind of the way Glenn worked, you know? That was just who Glenn was. Here was a guy who was a Nobel prize winner who’s kind of touting athletics, and here’s Mike Heyman over here, and people are saying, “Why isn’t Mike as jazzed up about athletics as Glenn was?” And it was a different day too. The other part of it is that I think that the climate on the campus also changed a lot. And when I say climate, I’m talking about with the students, I’m talking about with all the things, all the political activities that were taking place in the late sixties and the early seventies— it was, I think, a real damper on athletics at the time. It was tough recruiting. I also had great respect for [former Chancellor] Al Bowker. I thought Al Bowker was a terrific administrator. To me he wasn’t a guy who talked a lot, but whatever he said—

04-00:02:59 Cummins: Exactly.

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04-00:03:00 Maggard: —you can count on. And I thought he was really very, very good. So you had some really complex things at play, maybe more on the Cal campus than UCLA. I don’t think UCLA quite went through the kinds of things that we were going through at the time, to that degree.

04-00:03:22 Cummins: With regard to protests, that’s true.

04-00:03:25 Maggard: I think things that influenced the recruiting and so on.

04-00:03:33 Cummins: Chuck Young was another one—you know, we’ve been talking about these leaders. Nobody knows—with Chuck, once he decided, that was it. You knew where you stood.

04-00:03:42 Maggard: In the conference we had very strong presidents and chancellors. John, what happened is that on a lot of these things, athletic directors would take positions on certain things and vote. It would then go to the faculty reps. Then they would vote. It would then go to the presidents and chancellors. And there were many times when the presidents and chancellors said, “No, we’re not going to do that, regardless of the fact that you guys have recommended all this stuff. We’re not—that’s not going to happen. Can’t do it.”

04-00:04:15 Cummins: So something—I think there’s a lot of changes. Certainly one of the biggest is the fundraising and the concern about well, what are donors going to do if we cut sports?

04-00:04:25 Maggard: Yeah.

04-00:04:25 Cummins: And that kind of factors in.

04-00:04:28 Maggard: It does.

04-00:04:30 Cummins: And that gets into other questions about what’s the role of governance, who makes the final decisions? That kind of thing too, so it’s—

04-00:04:39 Maggard: I think you have to have a very strong chancellor, but I think he has to be somebody that’s not arbitrary, and I think that he has to have a view that the university is a place where you have a lot of different interests—athletics being one that can be very, very helpful. And I don’t know that you have a lot of presidents and chancellors around the country right now that have that ability to do that. Don Kennedy was certainly—I thought Don Kennedy was a

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great president. I thought he was terrific. I thought he was a smart guy. He was another kind of guy like that, John.

I think all of us had a respect for the presidents and chancellors in the conference, and essentially what they said was, “This is the way it’s going to be.” But they allowed discussion, they allowed ideas, and so on. I don’t know that I see that now very much. I think it’s become even more politicized than it was. Now, I told you the last time that we talked about the Golden Bear Athletic Fund, and my doing away with that, and I started Bear Backers. Well, that was one of those things that—see, Bowker backed me completely. Bowker said, “Go ahead and do it.” And there were some bullets that flew around, and they were ticked off, and I told him, “Al, these guys are going to really be ticked.” And he said, “Go ahead and do it.”

04-00:06:05 Cummins: And Stu Gordon was—

04-00:06:06 Maggard: Stu was one of them.

04-00:06:09 Cummins: Way back then? That’s amazing.

04-00:06:09 Maggard: But Stu wasn’t involved in trying to run the department.

04-00:06:12 Cummins: He was a pretty young guy.

04-00:06:14 Maggard: Oh, he was a young guy, and Stu wasn’t a wacko on this stuff. Stu and I were in school at the same time together at Cal, and Stu was very moderate in this thing. Stu was—because he was an attorney they got him involved, and so on. But in terms of this whole business of saying, “This is the way it’s going to be,” he wasn’t that way. He was very supportive of what we were doing in Athletics. Now there were some others that were very vindictive, very vindictive—guys like Tom Mulcahy, Len Renick, Jay Jacobus—he may still be around, I don’t know. And two or three of them were crew guys, which was interesting. But they were the ones who were more used to raising money than any other sport at the time. And so they looked at it as, “This is mine. This is ours; this is ours. You guys do what we say, and we’ll give you the money.” It was the same thing that was happening at Arizona State when they had the Sun Devil group that caused them so many problems. But Bowker, to his credit, stood firm on it and said, “No. Go ahead and do it.” And I said, “We’re going to start Bear Backers. We’re going to run it out of the Athletic Department so that we know what’s taking place. It’s audited,” the whole bit. It’s within the university. So he stood—he was strong on that, and you have to have people like that who are strong, respected by the alums. They may not like it, but they’re still going to look at it and say, “Well, this is what we have

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to do to keep it.” I don’t see a lot of people like that, John. And I don’t know if it’s because of the tenure of the presidents and chancellors—I don’t think it’s any shorter or more brief than it was at that time. I think Al was here nine years, something like that. Mike was here a little longer than that, I think.

04-00:08:13 Cummins: Mike was here for ten—the longest tenure.

04-00:08:16 Maggard: Yeah, and Berdahl—I don’t know.

04-00:08:18 Cummins: Seven.

04-00:08:19 Maggard: Seven? And so this guy is in—

04-00:08:21 Cummins: He’ll be eight, I think, total.

04-00:08:24 Maggard: Which is long enough, which is long enough. And I think that if the Chancellor and the University says, “This is what our charge is. This is our mission. This is what we’re going to do; this is the way we’re going to do it. We think it’s worthwhile,” and they get the faculty to buy into it, then—but I think getting the faculty to buy into it, you have to have somebody that’s pretty well respected.

04-00:08:45 Cummins: Yes, of course.

04-00:08:46 Maggard: Somebody that they believe in and know that when they say something it’s going to happen. But no, I was very surprised at Cal being at the top of the conference in terms of expenditures and deficit spending.

04-00:09:00 Cummins: And also the second largest public university in terms of number of sports.

04-00:09:02 Maggard: Yeah.

04-00:09:03 Cummins: Twenty-nine sports.

04-00:09:03 Maggard: Yeah, and see, John, that’s one of those things that’s great to have.

04-00:09:06 Cummins: Yeah, of course. But boy, they’re expensive.

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04-00:09:08 Maggard: It really becomes one of those things where you do what you can afford to do. And if you can’t afford to support it, my feeling—I know that when I went to Miami and people said we want to start such and such, I said, “We’ll do it as long as we have, in advance, four years of scholarship money.” In advance. That’s what we have to have to start it, otherwise we don’t do it, and coaches’ salary, the whole bit. So you don’t want to start those programs without having—and that’s the whole idea with the endowment thing. I’m sold on the endowment thing even though it takes time, it’s in the long-term benefit, I think, of the athletic program. I think the coaches have to buy into that. I think that while they may not be great fundraisers, I think they have to be participants in it. I think you’ll find this—it’s a little different—but I think you’ll find this in the Ivy League, where coaches are involved to some extent in the fundraising part of it.

04-00:10:13 Cummins: So go back, now, and talk about those early days, because you had, as I said, those four different units. There were all these discussions. You did cut sports—golf—

04-00:10:25 Maggard: Cut wrestling.

04-00:10:28 Cummins: Golf, wrestling, volleyball—I think?

04-00:10:30 Maggard: Volleyball. We started on a trial basis. Golf was not cut, but they had to raise a lot of their expenses.

04-00:10:32 Cummins: What was that like at that time? I’ve heard the story of Frank Brunk, Steve Desimone, Bob Kerley—a very heated conversation.

04-00:10:40 Maggard: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

04-00:10:41 Cummins: I think that’s important. I’d like you to comment on that. And then, also, a lot of people that I’ve talked to, and that’s not news to you, but the competition between those four units. They’re all—certainly not Men’s [Athletics], Men’s is in good shape. They’re doing fine. Women come in with a deficit, there’s a little bit of a deficit in Rec Sports, there’s the tension between Physical Education and Athletics—a lot of this stuff is over facilities. Can you talk about that and what that was like? You were a young guy then.

04-00:11:19 Maggard: Yes. I think it was a real difficult time on campus, and I think that there was this feeling that—and this is where I think that somebody like Bob Kerley got too involved. I think he was too involved, because he was the guy that pushed

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the golf thing in giving them whatever they asked for. On the outside. He was the guy that was pushing to fund it, and my whole thing was, “We’ll fund it when we can get the money to fund it. We’ll do that and we’ll have a fundraising thing.” Well, Frank Brunk was very, very hostile about this. You’ve got to help golf, you’ve got to do this, you’ve got to do that. And that whole business. So that was hard, because it was one of those things that I just said, “Hey, when we have the money to do it, we’ll do it. And that’s it. You guys help raise the money and we’ll have a program. And Steve, you’re going to have to help us.” Now, in the meantime, Bob was meeting with all these people too, and I think that that was really—that put me in a real tough situation, because he was very much—

04-00:12:26 Cummins: Because you had already decided, basically.

04-00:12:27 Maggard: Well, I had simply said—Kerley was, “Well, you’ve got to meet the budget.” Bob Kerley and then, of course, Heyman. And I said, “That’s fine, but this is the way that I feel we should do it. I don’t feel that we should make a commitment like this unless we have everybody involved and people will help raise the money and help get it off the ground.” This was a growth thing, this was something that really had to grow, and guys like Frank Brunk who wanted it right now, said, “You need to do this right now. You’re opposed to golf,” and the whole thing. I said, “If we have the money we’ll have every sport going.

So yeah, that was a hard one, and I have to say that Bob’s involvement at that time, as far as I was concerned, was in the wrong way, because he was encouraging these guys that, “Yeah, we ought to have a golf program,” and so on and so forth. And I’m saying, “Yeah, we ought to have a golf program, but we need to make sure that we have the finances to do it.” Now the other part of it was—on the wrestling situation, that came about because an awful lot of the wrestlers came to me and just said, “Hey, this program is nothing.” The other part of it is that there were very few programs around the country that had wrestling, so people were dropping it. And so it really became one of those things where Mike said that if we can’t raise money for it, we’re going to drop wrestling, because we don’t have the money to support it. The guy that got involved in this was Dan Boatwright, and that was, that was because—

04-00:14:21 Cummins: —who, for the tape, was a member of the California State Assembly representing Contra Costa County.

04-00:14:28 Maggard: Yeah. And he was close with the wrestling coach, and he was close to Pete Cutino. Pete Cutino and the wrestling coach were very close friends. They went to Dan Boatwright and said, “This is what’s happening. You’ve got to put the pressure on this guy.” Which he did. He called me up to Sacramento, I

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went up and met with him, and I said, “Dan, we don’t have the money to do it.” I showed him the budget. I said, “Here’s the budget. If we had the money to do it, great. The other part of it is that we don’t have anybody—we really have very few schools to wrestle unless we go to the Big Ten and wrestle Iowa and Oklahoma State, so it doesn’t make any sense to have this right now. We can’t afford it.” Now volleyball was one of those situations that the Ricksons were pretty involved in that way, one was volleyball. So, as I recall, we had some money come in, and I think, John, what I said is that we’ll do it on a trial basis, depending upon what we get from alumni and what you get in fundraising. And they didn’t get very much, and so we—I don’t know—I’d have to go back. I think it was maybe for two or three years and they said, “We’re not going to do this.”

So the whole idea, as far as I was concerned, was that when I was given pretty strict orders that you can’t go over the budget, I looked at these things and then talked to the athletes about it, and some of the alums. But we really didn’t have any alums to speak of in wrestling.

So there was nobody that was giving any big money, and we weren’t doing anything and we had a lot of complaints about the coaching and the program. And this occurred over probably two or three years of looking at it carefully and saying, “Well, we’re probably going to do this.”

I never could quite figure the golf thing out, John, because I felt that in all the conversations that I’d had with Bob Kerley—we’ve got to get this thing going from the standpoint of raising money. He met with Brunk quite a bit and maybe some others, and with Desimone a lot as well. And I don’t think there’s any question about the fact that Frank Brunk was probably one of the most outspoken people against me and the administration. And it was because of this golf thing, of not wanting to do this. And I just said, “Hey, if we have the money, we’ll do it. That’s great.”

04-00:17:19 Cummins: Now, it actually worked out all right.

04-00:17:23 Maggard: Oh, it worked out okay, but it took time! And I said, “This is going to take some time to build up, and you guys are going to have to help. You’re going to have to have the tournament, you’re going to have to put money into it,” and the whole bit. So it worked out, it worked out over a period of time.

04-00:17:39 Cummins: A long time.

04-00:17:40 Maggard: Which is what I thought would happen, but it was like—“We want it right now. We want it right now.”

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04-00:17:48 Cummins: But it’s the one sport that they talk about that is self-supporting. But it took a long, long time.

04-00:17:55 Maggard: A long time to do it.

04-00:17:56 Cummins: And, apparently, from my conversations with Steve Desimone—he gave me an interview on this too, he said they understood—Frank and eventually Ed Arnold and other people—that it was going to take a long time, but they were in it for the long haul. That they were there, they would support this program, they would make sure it didn’t go into deficit, this kind of thing. And of course, you’ve got to kind of take them on their word—that’s the situation you’re in as the AD—is that going to happen or not? It certainly happened in that case. But I think the interesting point is how long it took.

04-00:18:39 Maggard: Yes.

04-00:18:41 Cummins: So when an AD or a chancellor or donors talk about endowing an Olympic sport in particular, it takes a long time, unless you get somebody who’s got a ton of money who’s just going to put it into that sport.

04-00:18:55 Maggard: Yeah. I think that on that issue I was hurt by both Desimone and Kerley. And Desimone was not helpful because he fanned the flames with people like Brunk and some of the golf people that, “We should be getting more,” and so on. And I did tell him that it was going to take some time in order to do this. “That’s fine if you guys will support it. Great. As far as I’m concerned, let’s have fifty sports if we can support all of them.” So yeah, that was a tough one, and I really felt that I didn’t have very good support from Kerley on that, and I think I had a real behind-the-back guy in Desimone in terms of what he was saying to people like Brunk and some of the others. So that’s just the way it is.

04-00:19:47 Cummins: That’s the nature of—

04-00:19:49 Maggard: That’s the nature of the thing. And we had some of the same stuff, John, in crew. Guys like Mulcahy and some of these other people were saying, “We want to go to the Henley and we want a success right now. And no, we don’t want to do this whole business of endowment.” And so my feeling was— we’re going to have to push the endowment, or these sports aren’t going to be here anyhow in the long term. Now, somebody on the outside is not going to understand that as well as people who are—and that’s what I’m saying about the discipline and having to take some hard positions sometimes, and they’re not popular. They’re very political positions to have to take.

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So I think on the golf situation, I think on the wrestling situation, I think on the volleyball—those were all situations that I viewed as, “We have to have the money.” Because I did the same thing with the rugby people. I had a lot of meetings with Bob Witter and some of his people. Now Bob was more willing to say, “Okay. We’ll help you do this, and we’ll work at this, and we’ll do this.” And so I don’t know where they are with that program now, but it was pretty close to being endowed. When I left it was pretty close to being endowed. The same thing was true with the swimming and water polo—we had a lot of money already in there. We had a lot in crew, and we had some in tennis, we had even some in football. See, my whole thing was—let’s endow every position in football. And I got that idea from USC. At the time. I said, “Let’s endow each position so we get that going.” The endowment thing I think, John, to the alumni at that time in the history of Cal, was probably very foreign to them. Because I don’t think—even fundraising itself was foreign, and saying we’ll endow it, when we have needs right now, was something that not a lot of people wanted to hear. So I think that was one of those things that we had to push pretty hard to get some of those things going.

04-00:22:24 Cummins: Right. So that’s an important point. It really is.

04-00:22:25 Maggard: Well, I think it is—I think endowing sports is the savior of the “Olympic” sports. And I think even with football and basketball, the more programs you can endow, the better off you’re going to be in terms of taking the pressure off of the university. And if people on the outside, the faculty and so on and so forth, see that you’re endowing these things and you have a long-term—see, most people don’t look at this as a long-term deal.

04-00:22:56 Cummins: No, exactly.

04-00:22:57 Maggard: And my view was, “Let’s look at it,” and I told Don Blessing, “Don, I’d like to see crew going well when you and I are both gone. This is the whole idea of this thing.” And that was true in all of the things that we did.

Now the other thing at that time that was kind of interesting after I’d left and then Kasser came in after that—Margot Smith Chmel was still very involved with the fundraising thing on a volunteer basis. And before I left, a scholarship had been started in my name. I think you looked into this. Margot said, for some reason, that John Kasser doesn’t have a feel for endowments and wants to concentrate on annual fundraising. He simply wanted to ignore endowments, including the one in your name.

Chmel passed away. I spoke at her memorial service a few weeks ago. But she helped me get Bear Backers started. She was there from the very beginning, and then after I left she worked as a volunteer for a long time within the

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department, with the Bear Backers and so on. And I don’t know if that’s completely true with—

04-00:24:28 Cummins: With John or not.

04-00:24:28 Maggard: With John or not, but nothing was done—and as a matter of fact, John, you may have a letter that you wrote and said, “I’m going to look into this.”

04-00:24:37 Cummins: I’ll check.

04-00:24:39 Maggard: I’m not sure about that. But anyhow, the endowment initiative, I think, is one of those things that was foreign to the Cal people for certain, probably not as much now, with some time passing. And when you speak about the other units taking place, this is where I thought the support from Bob Kerley and Mac Laetsch—even though I like both of them—was really poor in terms of how we worked things out with the use of the facilities.

04-00:25:20 Cummins: Yeah, so let’s talk about that.

04-00:25:22 Maggard: And with Women’s Athletics.

04-00:25:32 Cummins: Well, before you go there, I just want to complete this one section here, and I wanted to quote this to you from the Smelser Report, which goes back to ’91 when this report was written, so it’s right towards the end of your term here. And this is under the term—I can give you this—Sports and Finances. “The sustained ambiguity of sports finances over the years, the failure either to support sports adequately or to decide not to do so has led to an unfortunate kind of ‘beggar-thy-neighbor competition in the athletic programs.” Do you agree with that?

04-00:26:21 Maggard: I’d say that’s probably right. Yeah, I think there’s truth in that. I think it was one of those situations that—like I said, I had enormous respect for Bob and Mac and Mike, but I think there was a period of time when it was almost— we’re going to put Athletics in their place on campus. I mean, it was purposely saying that Athletics has a small part of the campus. And I think there’s another example that I felt was really, really sending a message that Athletics is not in control, and we need to make them understand that. And we occasionally have to ignore the Athletics Department and let the faculty know that the Administration is in control. The use of the stadium. The Beatles came back.

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04-00:27:06 Cummins: Oh yeah, I wanted to talk about that.

04-00:27:07 Maggard: Mike Heyman never even informed me of that. That was something that I was never informed about as a courtesy.

04-00:27:13 Cummins: Paul McCartney—

04-00:27:12 Maggard: Yeah, Paul McCartney, the Beatles, whatever. I learned about that after it had already been done.

04-00:27:17 Cummins: I remember—do you remember coming into my office? You were furious!

04-00:27:20 Maggard: Yeah, I probably was.

04-00:27:22 Cummins: We had just put down the Astroturf.

04-00:27:23 Maggard: Yeah. Exactly.

04-00:27:24 Cummins: So talk about that.

04-00:27:26 Maggard: Well, this kind of has to do with what I’m talking about wanting to—putting Athletics in their place and saying, “You’re not running the university.” And facilities and so on and so forth, regardless if they’re athletic facilities, we’re going to do with them whatever we want to do. We had put the Astroturf down just prior to that, and I learned about this just—

04-00:27:57 Cummins: How did you find out?

04-00:27:58 Maggard: It was just being talked about on campus, that Paul McCartney was coming. And I said—I don’t know anything about it. And come to find out, the deal had already been made.

04-00:28:09 Cummins: Now, that’s when you came into my office.

04-00:28:11 Maggard: Yeah, and I asked Mike—I said—

04-00:28:12 Cummins: Yeah, that was a million bucks. I remember—

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04-00:28:17 Maggard: I didn’t even know anything about this.

04-00:28:18 Cummins: That was not good. Managerially, that was not good.

04-00:28:23 Maggard: And I think that there were things like that that happened, that began to happen, when there was a lot of pressure on Title IX, on use of facilities, on all of those kinds of things. Then it really became one of those things of—I felt—that it was more the University—this is a university.

04-00:28:48 Cummins: An us-against-them kind of thing?

04-00:28:49 Maggard: This is the University’s and we’ll put Athletics in their place, and it doesn’t make any difference what Dave asks for. We’re going to make the decisions on this, and like it or lump it.

04-00:29:02 Cummins: I’m trying to remember—this was—the Paul McCartney concert I think was ’88.

04-00:29:07 Maggard: I can’t remember the year.

04-00:29:09 Cummins: So that’s pretty accurate. So who were you reporting to then? Was that Mac still?

04-00:29:20 Maggard: It was Mac. And I learned about it in a roundabout way. The deal had already been made. The Athletic Department had nothing to say about it. It was completely done by the “University.” So I felt, as time went along, that it was much more—people have to understand who’s running this university. And Mike was pretty strong in that, I think. So my whole view was there was never good communication, getting information—what do you think about this? So I didn’t have a very good feeling about that, and I think that the University felt a lot of pressure from Women’s Athletics, from Recreation, and from Physical Education, to some extent, on use of facilities.

04-00:30:46 Cummins: But you know the beneficiary on the McCartney concert was the $250,000 that went to the homeless issue down on South Side.

04-00:30:59 Maggard: I didn’t know where it went.

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04-00:31:01 Cummins: And the only reason that we could do it was because the city had a big issue. I can’t remember—I’ll have to go back and look at the files—but, let’s see, Tom Bates was in the Assembly. Loni was the mayor—Loni Hancock, it was just reversed from now. And the understanding was they would get about $200,000-$250,000 as the result of the Paul McCartney concert, which will help address this homeless issue on the South Side. There was a house down on Haste Street that had to be moved, and the City wanted to build a homeless shelter in South Berkeley. So that’s how that kind of worked. But I completely agree that you should have been told.

04-00:31:46 Maggard: Well, I would have liked to have been informed, and I learned about it after the deal was done. I didn’t know anything about it. So I felt at that period of time, and I think to Mike’s credit, and I told you this before, that I think all these buildings and this fundraising was really one that Mike’s pushed. And I think it was at that time that he looked at it and said, “Hey, if Athletics can do this, we can do a lot more.”

04-00:32:15 Cummins: Yeah, you’re right. And I’ve confirmed that with him. He said exactly—that’s right.

04-00:32:18 Maggard: There was that period of time, and Women’s Athletics was pushing hard. I think there was a feeling of, “We’ve got to go, because of the climate on campus, we’ve got to push this more than Athletics. We’ve got to let Athletics know, and we’ve got to let all the people on campus know that this is something that we’re really serious about.” And I felt that what was taking place at that time was a slap in the face of Athletics. There became a much more arbitrary way of saying, “This is what we’re going to do on this campus.” Without any consultation or collaboration. This was Mac’s idea and this was also Mike’s idea. They both did it at the same time. I was never included in the whole business of looking at how the athletics facilities were going to be used. I was never included in that. I was never on that committee. And Mac didn’t want me on that committee.

04-00:33:38 Cummins: Now, this—let’s go back.

04-00:33:42 Maggard: There was a committee that said this is how this facility—this is how we’re going to assign—we’re going to assign—

04-00:33:46 Cummins: So you weren’t on that?

04-00:33:47 Maggard: I was never on it.

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04-00:33:49 Cummins: Did you have a representative on it?

04-00:33:50 Maggard: I feel certain we did, but it was made clear by Mac and Mike that I was not to be included.

04-00:33:54 Cummins: Because there was a committee—this press release that came out of Bob Kerley’s office in ’76 that talked about the creation of Women’s Intercollegiate Athletics, the Rec Sports program would be separate— [Director of Recreational Sports] Kooman Boycheff would head that up. And then it said at the bottom—which I thought was interesting—the Department of Physical Education will continue to determine the use of the appropriate facilities. And I just interviewed Roberta [J.] Park about some of this as well, and I know you had lots of interactions with all these people over that period of time. But maybe you did, maybe you didn’t—but there were these inevitable tensions—

04-00:34:39 Maggard: Oh, no question.

04-00:34:40 Cummins: —between these four units. So talk a little bit about that, and how much of that do you think is the result of the fact that we’re a landlocked campus, and we’re constrained by that.

04-00:34:51 Maggard: I think it was absolutely the case, and this is why I kept talking to Wally about a pavilion, and that’s when Wally said, “You’re going to get your pavilion, but not now.” So I said, “I’ll keep my mouth shut about it.” So we really needed to try to do something with the facilities, but I don’t think the campus looked at this as really the priority at the time. I think there were other priorities. Building buildings for academics, and so on and so forth. Which was fine, but I think—

04-00:35:30 Cummins: Did you know Roy [T.] Brophy?

04-00:35:31 Maggard: Roy Brophy—yeah, I did.

04-00:35:33 Cummins: Because he lived up here, in Sacramento. He was the chair of the Board of Regents.

04-00:35:36 Maggard: I know him.

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04-00:35:38 Cummins: He was the first one to raise the issue of the Memorial Stadium seismic issues, and that was during Mike’s time. And Mike didn’t want to deal with it at all. So to get to your point—it’s like, “I don’t need to deal with that now. I can do all this other stuff.”

04-00:35:53 Maggard: Right.

04-00:35:53 Cummins: Okay, go ahead. Sorry.

04-00:35:53 Maggard: It was really hard for Men’s Athletics to have a kind of program that people on the outside wanted to have. Basketball had a hard time, a very hard time. I think that was the biggest issue. The basketball was the biggest issue. And some of the other facilities as well, but I really had the feeling at that time that they were very much going overboard. [Narrator addendum: We also needed a football practice field.]

04-00:36:28 Cummins: The other way.

04-00:36:29 Maggard: The other way, to show that we’re a university that looks at the right things. And that this university is not being run by Athletics. So I think there was a real attempt to make people understand that that’s the way it was, especially the people on the campus. There were a lot of people outside the campus who were very unhappy about that.

04-00:36:59 Cummins: Yes, of course. But you know what’s interesting—because I asked Mike—I think I may have said this before. I said, “How much pressure did you get from these donors?” He said, “I don’t really recall that a lot of people came to me.” I said, “What about Peter Haas?” He said, “No, Peter didn’t ever say anything to me about that.”

04-00:37:16 Maggard: Wally.

04-00:37:17 Cummins: And I wonder—see, because I had, he gave me—

04-00:37:21 Maggard: Peter wasn’t that involved.

04-00:37:21 Cummins: No, okay. All right.

04-00:37:22 Maggard: Wally was the one—

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04-00:37:25 Cummins: So that kind of came after Wally passed away. I almost had the impression from Mike that you—and he said, “Dave and I had a really good relationship.”

04-00:37:36 Maggard: We did. We did.

04-00:37:38 Cummins: “He wasn’t pressing me all the time.” And so I thought—because I knew—we talked, remember we had lunch with Bruce Snyder to say, and we all agreed, “Why can’t we be good at athletics and academics at the same time?” So anyway, yeah, there’s something there about this mood that you’re describing.

04-00:37:57 Maggard: Yeah, and I think there was finally a little bit of a giving-in when I hired Bruce Snyder. Because I went to Mike and said, “Mike, if we can’t be competitive with compensation, we’re just going to continue to fall away in this whole business.” And so he did what I thought was a terrific job. And I think Lou Campanelli did a really good job, although Lou is the kind of guy— I was afraid that Lou would get into a little difficulty later because he’s very honest but prideful and used strong language in expressing himself.

04-00:38:35 Cummins: So volatile

04-00:38:37 Maggard: It was one of those things that, “Lou—this is the way it is. That’s it.” “Okay. That’s it.” And I think that he had—because he called me while I was at Miami a few times, and he said that Bockrath doesn’t want to talk to me. He won’t talk to me. There’s no communication. Bruce told me the same thing, and that’s why he went to Arizona State. And then Lou got in trouble, and frankly I think that was a back-stabbing deal all the way. I think it proved out—’s history proved that out. Bozeman takes over, they’re on probation, basketball’s on probation. And I think that hurt a lot.

John, I wouldn’t say there were knock-down and drag-outs about these things, but I would say that there was significant tension about what Athletics should have and what they shouldn’t have. And I felt there was a period of time when it was, “Maybe they need to think about it this way,” but I think the feeling was not only by the people in the Athletic Department, but this was the Administration sending the signal that—

04-00:40:22 Cummins: Second-class citizen.

04-00:40:24 Maggard: Yeah, yeah, you guys aren’t going to tell us—Athletics is not going to be like a lot of these other places and tell us what to do.

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04-00:40:31 Cummins: Now, did that start around when you began feeling that in an acute way—was that around the time of the McCartney concert in particular? Did it precede it?

04-00:40:41 Maggard: No, it was actually before, John, and to be honest with you, it’s the reason that I almost went to Virginia.

04-00:40:49 Cummins: What year was that about?

04-00:40:50 Maggard: I can’t remember. I’d have to look that up.

04-00:40:52 Cummins: Mid-eighties do you think?

04-00:40:54 Maggard: Yeah, yeah. And that’s when Mike said, “Look. You’re not going anyplace.”

04-00:40:57 Cummins: That’s right.

04-00:40:59 Maggard: And he said, “You’re going to be the Athletic Director as long as I’m here.” And that’s kind of the way Mike was. And I said, “Okay. I’ll stay here.” I had the offer from Virginia on paper and I was very, very close to taking it. And the people who had worked there before at Virginia encouraged me to take it, but Mike made the difference on that. Mike said, “You’re not going to go anyplace and you’re going to be the Athletic Director as long as I’m here.”

But I think it was probably about that time that I was feeling that the athletic program is becoming a program that’s being singled out as, “We’re not going to let the tail wag the dog here. That’s not going to happen at University of California at Berkeley, and so we’re going to see to it that that doesn’t happen, and we’re going to do things that we—” And, as a consequence, there were a lot of decisions that were made that I was never involved in, that were made by either Mac or Mike that I learned about after the fact.

04-00:42:10 Cummins: Just examples, can you think of—you talked about the McCartney thing—I know it’s hard to remember some of these, but were they budgetary?

04-00:42:19 Maggard: Well, I think a lot of it was, on the facilities situation, that there was really very little input from me on that, in terms of being the Athletic Director. There wasn’t kind of the feeling of—Mac is a very gregarious kind of guy, and he’s a friendly kind of guy, and he’s a likable guy. But I think, again, it was one of those situations where Mac was more involved, certainly, than I would have liked to have seen him involved in terms of what he was pushing, the kinds of

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things that he was pushing, and leaving me out of the conversation. Now, if I think back to very specific kinds of things, John, I’d have to think back on that, but I think the McCartney thing was one of the very big things.

04-00:43:24 Cummins: Big ones, yeah.

04-00:43:24 Maggard: That just said, “Hey, when we make these kinds of decisions you don’t count. You’re not going to be involved in it, even though that’s an “athletic” facility. We’re going to use it the way we feel it should be used.”

04-00:43:39 Cummins: What about with Rec Sports in terms of—

04-00:43:42 Maggard: Yeah, I think there was always a tension. They were chair of that committee.

04-00:43:55 Cummins: Bill Manning was, yeah, at some point.

04-00:43:59 Maggard: And so it really became one of those things of—

04-00:44:02 Cummins: Now I think Bob Kerley appointed him, didn’t he?

04-00:44:04 Maggard: He might have.

04-00:44:04 Cummins: I think he did.

04-00:44:05 Maggard: Yeah, he may have. Bob may have, but I think that’s another example where the people in the Athletic Department looked at that and said, “The guy who is in Recreational Sports is the guy really calling the shots on who’s utilizing the facilities.” So I think the fact that—there were a lot of these things, John, that couldn’t be helped, by the administration, because they couldn’t be fixed overnight. But I think the part that bothered me the most was the lack of collaboration on this, and the lack of input that Athletics seemed to have when these decisions were made. And yet, at the same time, it’s like I said, I liked Bob Kerley; I liked Mac, I liked Mike. I liked Al Bowker. I liked all those people, I really did. I thought they were really good people, and I still have great respect for them, and I have great respect for Mike and what he stands for.

04-00:45:11 Cummins: There’s no question on that.

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04-00:45:12 Maggard: So we had a very tough situation on campus to solve.

04-00:45:16 Cummins: Absolutely. And it’s still tough. I think it’s still tough today. And I think it’s, in part, as a result of being landlocked, having—

04-00:45:26 Maggard: I think the new pavilion helps.

04-00:45:26 Cummins: It does.

04-00:45:28 Maggard: That seemed to help a lot. See, we were restricted by the amount of money we could bring in, simply because of the size of Harmon. We had sell-outs—I don’t know how many we had, but it didn’t make any difference. There were only a certain number of seats in there that we could have.

04-00:45:44 Cummins: What about the Rec Sports Facility? What are your views on that?

04-00:45:49 Maggard: We had very little use of it. We didn’t really use it. It was one of those things it was said, “This is for the students. This is not for Athletics.”

04-00:46:03 Cummins: Is there an inherent tension? Because you’ve dealt with this at other institutions too, between—unless you have unlimited amounts of money or space. I was just at Purdue a couple of weeks ago. My God! It’s unlimited space!

04-00:46:19 Maggard: Yeah, well, you go to Texas A&M.

04-00:46:20 Cummins: Same thing. It’s wide open! Whatever you want!

04-00:46:24 Maggard: Yes.

04-00:46:24 Cummins: Plus enough money. That greatly eliminates the tension, it would seem to me, between running a major intercollegiate athletics program versus the rec sports program versus physical education. There is an equity issue, I think, where—and this certainly comes up in the Knight Commission and other places—where you’re spending so much per student athlete versus the regular student. How do you tie that in to the health and well-being of the student body? So can you say a little bit about that?

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04-00:46:59 Maggard: Well, let me tell you about my feeling at that particular time. I said at the time that I would never take a job again without reporting directly to the president or chancellor. That was the case at Miami. And there is no possible way that, at Miami, they would have said anything other than Athletics has priority. That’s it. Plain and simple. And I reported to Tad Foote, who was the president, which I enjoyed. I liked him a lot, a good guy. Answers came very fast. When we had an issue, when we had a contract situation or whatever, it was just a day, usually. Whereas here it was very bureaucratic, very slow, very—those kinds of things. So there was a big difference. I noticed a very big difference in Miami and a place like this. You’ve got a private university, and you have a big state university, and it’s smaller, so things are going to be different. So on that campus there’s no question what the priorities were. None. It never was an issue. I had never a bumping of heads with anybody on campus regarding facilities or much of anything else. It was really between myself and the President, and that was kind of it. And I met with their board and gave them information regarding all that was going on in the department.

04-00:48:35 Cummins: What about at Houston?

04-00:48:36 Maggard: Same deal.

04-00:48:37 Cummins: Same, huh. You reported to the President there?

04-00:48:39 Maggard: I was on the President’s cabinet. I was a member of the President’s cabinet, and so I went to the meetings every Monday or Tuesday or whenever, and I reported to the President. So, when I came to Houston, the whole business was, “You’ve got to get this athletic program up.” And so in terms of having any kind of tension between recreation or physical education or anything else—there was none of that. In seven and a half years, nothing. And I would not have gone to Miami without it being a different reporting structure and knowing what the emphasis was. There are some things that I could say about Miami that were real problems, and I still think are inherent in that. There are some things at Houston the same way.

04-00:49:43 Cummins: Can you talk generally about that?

04-00:49:52 Maggard: Well, I think that at certain places you have a culture that’s been established for a long period of time. And if you’re going to change things dramatically, you have to change the culture, and that takes time. That takes real time, because you have to go through a cycle of alums and get them to buy in. You’ve got to get new people, you have to attract new people into the

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program that have a different view than the old-timers, and so on. I think that’s a very big part of it.

Now at Houston, I met with a faculty committee, and it was because I wanted to, once a month. And I shared everything with them. We had lunch together—I’d say, “You guys want to see the budget? Let me tell you what we’re paying so-and-so. Let me tell you what we’re doing with this.” They were some of my biggest advocates. They are people that I still get e-mails from now. I still get e-mails, “What do you think about this, David?” This and this and this, and so on. But it was because I felt that it was important for us to have a good, strong—I didn’t feel we were going to get the subsidy at the University without having the support of the faculty. And one of the things that happened when Art Briles—I gave him a new contact and it was x number of dollars. The guy who was one of the assistant deans said, “Hey Dave. When I start drawing 35,000 people to my classes, I’ll demand the same. Well, you should give it to him. You give it to him.” That was such a different kind of an attitude. So different places have different cultures. The culture at Cal was inculcated for a very long period of time.

04-00:51:50 Cummins: And talk a little bit about it. What was it? How would you describe the culture?

04-00:51:54 Maggard: I think you really have to go back to the Clark Kerr days, the whole business of, “We don’t want to have big-time athletics.” The whole emphasis was much more on graduate programs than undergraduate, that the competition should be between the University of California campuses, that’s it. So I think there were a lot of people that felt—

[End Audio File 4]

[Begin Audio File 5]

05-00:00:00 Maggard: — “athletic” events, whether they be recreational or whatever.

05-00:00:03 Cummins: Yeah, Roberta Park was a field hockey coach for seventeen years, women’s field hockey.

05-00:00:07 Maggard: So I think that she had an appreciation for Athletics. I think that probably in terms of—her whole shtick was very different than the push on Athletics. And a lot of the Athletics people always come back and say, “The Physical Education people have tenure.” So it’s one of those things where their whole feeling about it is very different than what ours is in terms of having the urgency of getting it done right now. Physical Education people are people who—they’re faculty people, they have tenure, and so they don’t have to

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worry about the kinds of things that we worry about, and they have little contact with alumni. I had nothing against Roberta. I didn’t see Roberta very much. From what I could see, she wasn’t really that involved in either what she said about various programs—I didn’t hear her knocking Athletics. I didn’t hear her knocking anything. I think that what she wanted was exactly what you’re talking about, “Let’s have a golf class, let’s have a swimming class, let’s have this class,” whatever.

05-00:01:32 Cummins: Yes, and this gets to the issue of—

05-00:01:39 Maggard: Culture?

05-00:01:39 Cummins: The culture, because I want to get back to that. As an example, where I was saying that she really cared about these programs that were offered and are still offered. There are fewer of them like dance, swimming, et cetera, through what’s called the Program in Physical Education, because the department was dissolved in the late nineties. And her concern with—over all these years of Intercollegiate Athletics being bailed out—that small program being cut back, which deprives many students of the opportunity to—

05-00:02:15 Maggard: She’s probably right. That’s probably right. I think those classes are important, and I think physical education is real important in high school. I think that’s a huge problem for the United States right now. I think the de- emphasis on physical education and physical education teachers is a problem from the standpoint of obesity—all kinds of things that I think are a problem in the United States now, and the de-emphasis on this.

05-00:02:42 Cummins: Now, let me just say quickly, and then we’ll get back to this culture thing, I finished an interview with her two days ago, and she was mentioning facilities in that context. She talked about the Haas Pavilion being built, and she had a student getting her PhD that she was working with, and she said, “Let’s do a little anthropological study here. Let’s go around and look at all the athletic facilities on the campus. I’m not going to make any comments. I want you to think about this, come back to me, we’ll talk.” So she comes back. She sees at Rec Sports that there are lots of people working out and on and on, but at the Haas Pavilion it’s largely empty. So that’s the Intercollegiate Athletics facility, particularly being the most obvious as the arena there. So anyway, she said that would be an example that to her doesn’t make sense.

05-00:03:40 Maggard: And I would agree with her. I would agree with her.

05-00:03:42 Cummins: The big facilities, et cetera.

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05-00:03:45 Maggard: I would agree with that completely. I think all the facilities on campus should be utilized. Now, I don’t think that Athletics should have carte blanche, just whatever they want to do. But at Houston we had kids come in, if it was between classes. They went to Hofheinz Pavilion, and they shot and all that kind of stuff. I even indicated that I felt that recreation could use that facility more. And I think if Haas Pavilion is sitting empty in the morning—

05-00:04:20 Cummins: It should be used?

05-00:04:21 Maggard: It should be used. And I would have to agree with Roberta on that part of it. I think that Athletics has got to have their time, there’s no question, but if they’re not using it—they’re not going to be using it in the morning necessarily—I think all those activities that Roberta’s talking about are real important. The dance classes, the this, the that, whatever—I think you utilize every facility that you have on campus. If you have it, you use it.

So I can understand where Roberta would be coming from, from the standpoint of—see, I never had the kind of “problem” that Athletics has right now, of spending more money than any other school in the conference and always having a large office. So it’s hard for me to relate to people on the campus who say, “Well, this is being overdone,” or whatever, or “we’re not getting our fair share.” From the outside I’d probably look at it and say—well, my guess is that they could do it on less, and have the discipline to say we’re going to support this sport, and we’re not going to support this. Or, if we’re going to do this, then so-and-so, you’ve got to help us raise the money for this and endow this sport and look at this thing long term. I think if the university could see that you’re doing something long-term, then they can also go along with it in a much better way. Years from now we’re going to be doing the same kind of things. So I think that gives them the feeling that you care about what’s happening in other parts of the university, and so on. I never did have the luxury of having the kind of problem that they have right now, where they have a much bigger budget and expenditures than UCLA. It was always the other way, that we were trying to find dollars to get closer to what UCLA had. Part of that was because they had Pauley Pavilion.

And I think that was one of the problems for us, John, in terms of the facilities, because I think that was the urgency—you get a coach who comes in and says, “I can’t even use the facility when I need to, Dave. How do you expect me to win? You want me to beat UCLA in basketball. How do I do that when I’m getting kicked out of the gym? If I go five minutes over or whatever, somebody’s knocking on the door saying, ‘Hey, you’re supposed to have your butt out of here.’” So there were tensions in that regard, yeah. I think that was the case. Were they knock-downs or drag-outs, John? I don’t know that I would characterize them that way. But I can say there was considerable tension. There was, and there were sometimes words that flowed

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back and forth that were pretty inflammatory. So I’ll readily admit that I felt, at the time, John, that we got shortchanged. We got shortchanged because we didn’t have the kind of voice that everybody else had—

05-00:07:26 Cummins: At the table.

05-00:07:26 Maggard: —that we could make the case for what we were doing. Plus I felt that we had a lot more pressure on us financially than everybody else. You’ve got to meet the budget. If you’re going to meet the budget, you’re going to have to fill Harmon, and so on. So that was where I think we had the dilemma. It was much more, “We’re not paying the coaches anything like UCLA or USC. We don’t have the money that they have, and all those kinds of things. And so help us out at least with giving us an opportunity to make our case for utilization of these.” Now, I don’t think anybody in the administration would look at it that way, John. I don’t think Mac would look at it that way, I don’t think Mike would, and I don’t think Bob Kerley would. I’m not sure about that. I think that they would say that we were compressed and impacted by fewer facilities than what we needed, and that was one of the reasons that I started Cal Sports Eighties and went all around the country looking at all these different places. This is what they have, this is what we need to compete.

So it was on that track, it was on that track, and—to be honest with you— when I left I thought we were in really good shape in football. I thought we were in really good shape in basketball. I thought we had endowments started in almost all the sports. We had a surplus, and I thought, “This is the time for me to leave.” Now, Wally Haas called me about that and said, “Dave, nobody wants you to leave.” And I said, “Wally, that’s why I’m leaving. I don’t want it to be one of those situations. Yeah, I’m going to miss a lot of this, and I think this is a Rose Bowl team next year.”

And I really truly thought it was, and they almost were. That was a really good football team, and I thought it would be a Rose Bowl team. I really did. And I talked to [Chancellor Chang-Lin] Tien about that and I said, “You need to make sure to keep Bruce [Snyder], and Lou [Campanelli] in the basketball.” And that’s when he said, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’ll do that.” Yet they were gone in a very short period of time. They were at a certain level that could be maintained for a little bit, but they just kept gradually going down. Then with Keith [Gilbertson], he brought it all the way down, and then Tom [Holmoe]. It was one of those situations that I thought was a direct result of that football staff not being here, because at Arizona State they played for the national championship a couple of years after that. So anyhow, I thought that it was important to keep that staff because it was the best staff I thought we had for a long time. We were finally getting to a point to where we were much more competitive in terms of the way we were paying people. So I thought that

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really led to this downward spiral that started when Bruce left, and then the whole business of going on probation in basketball at the time, and so on.

05-00:10:43 Cummins: Do you have access to Bruce?

05-00:10:46 Maggard: He’s dead.

05-00:10:46 Cummins: Oh, he is.

05-00:10:48 Maggard: He died.

05-00:10:48 Cummins: Oh, I didn’t know that.

05-00:10:49 Maggard: Yeah, a little over a year ago of cancer. You know, when I was looking for a coach at Houston, he called me and said, “Dave, I want to come.” I said, “Bruce, I can’t do it. I’ve got to get somebody that understands Texas. Texas—these high school coaches will push you out. If you don’t have somebody that really relates to these high school coaches—I wish I could do it Bruce, but I can’t. I just can’t do it, and I hope you understand that.” So I saw him off and on. He came to one of the East-West Shrine games. I think I told you Jack Hart had called me and said, “We need a place, Dave.” So we did it at our place in Houston for three years. And Bruce came one year there, and, as a matter of fact, I saw Ray Willsey and I saw Mike White. Who else was there? John Ralston. They were all there with Jack, Jack Hart.

05-00:11:52 Cummins: Amazing.

05-00:11:52 Maggard: So I visited with all those guys. Gosh, Ray looks like he’s got to be getting up there in years. But it was very, very interesting, John, because you had a group of people that in some ways had had their real strong differences, and yet— there was Jack with Mike, there was Ray who—he and Mike at the time were just at great odds. There was John Ralston. It was interesting, and so time sometimes takes care of those things.

05-00:12:26 Cummins: Yeah, it does.

05-00:12:29 Maggard: And sometimes it mellows things out a little bit.

05-00:12:31 Cummins: So go back and talk about the culture. You were talking about Clark Kerr.

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05-00:12:39 Maggard: I think it’s interesting because it all has to do with—there was a period after the war that Cal had a lot of success in football and a lot in all sports, okay? A lot of the veterans came back—they were older, things started going down a little bit. Pappy Waldorf got older and apparently—you know, John, at that time the Southern Seas [alumni group in Southern California] was huge. You know that they just sent guys up here and said, “You take these guys.” They were scouting—the whole bit. It was that whole thing. And so Pappy kind of went by the wayside. Then Pete Elliott came in. They had one really bad year, and then they went to the Rose Bowl the next year. They had a bad year—as a matter of fact that next year was the year that I played, not a great year, and Pete went to Illinois. And Marv Levy came in. During that interim time, if somebody like Clark Kerr felt that—I’ll never forget. I think it was in Time magazine—the egghead who wanted to make Cal the Harvard of the West, or whatever. But anyhow, Marv Levy. I don’t think Marv Levy had one special action guy on that team. I don’t think there was one. He had no chance. No chance. He won at New Mexico before, and you know who was really responsible for getting him here?

05-00:14:11 Cummins: No.

05-00:14:11 Maggard: Glenn Seaborg. Glenn was doing the Alamos thing up in New Mexico, and here was this guy at New Mexico who was doing a good job, a Phi Beta Kappa. So they said, “Hey—we need a Phi Beta Kappa at Cal. This just fits us perfect.” And so Marv comes in, and it’s catastrophic. There’s no winning, and there’s this whole thing about Cal’s going to become a graduate school, there’s a de-emphasis on athletics, Clark Kerr doesn’t feel it’s important.

05-00:14:40 Cummins: Where—where can I find some stuff on that? It’s got to be—was it in the news?

05-00:14:46 Maggard: Yeah, it was in the news.

05-00:14:49 Cummins: So this would be early sixties, then.

05-00:14:50 Maggard: This would be late fifties, early sixties.

05-00:14:52 Cummins: Okay, because he was Chancellor from ’52 to ’58 and then President—

05-00:14:58 Maggard: It would have been that time.

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05-00:15:00 Cummins: All right. Somewhere in the fifties.

05-00:15:02 Maggard: And you know, I got to know Clark reasonably well, and I liked the guy. Now, we never did talk about athletics—we talked about something else. But I bumped into him a couple of times at airports, and we had some nice conversations. But the word was always that Clark wanted to de-emphasize athletics, and there just wasn’t going to be room for this because they’d really gone to extremes in the conference about that.

05-00:15:30 Cummins: Of course.

05-00:15:31 Maggard: So everybody was cheating. Everybody in the conference.

05-00:15:36 Cummins: Sure, so there you got the reaction.

05-00:15:36 Maggard: And you got this reaction of, “We’re going to clean the whole thing up.” And you know how the pendulum goes. The pendulum swung from, “We’re going to set these guys up, we’ll pay them off, we’ll do whatever to win.” And then the conference breaks up, and all of a sudden it’s a new deal. A completely new deal. And so everybody felt that there was a real de-emphasis. So the program went through a very hard period of time, John, of being really down. Then it was interesting that Ray Willsey came in, and so Ray started to win some. Well, they also had huge NCAA problems, and so that’s about the time that—and I will tell you that Roger Heyns and Ray Willsey were very close, really close. They really were. And Paul Brechler came here—

05-00:16:35 Cummins: Where does he live now, Ray Willsey?

05-00:16:40 Maggard: They have a place up in—I think he said Sun Valley in the summer and then he goes down to Palm Springs in the winter. But anyhow, Ray and Roger were very close. Roger hired Paul Brechler. Paul Brechler came in and—I have to tell you, Paul was a joke. But before that, see, they had all these problems with the black situation. Rene Herrerias is anything but racist. They still boycotted him, they banged on him. So you had all of these things that were happening at Cal first. “You’ve got to shave your moustache, you’ve got to keep your hair,” this and that, blah, blah, blah. So Rene eventually gets fired, they hire . He was a catastrophe. Jim Padgett was just—he was a catastrophe.

05-00:17:35 Cummins: So he was a basketball coach.

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05-00:17:37 Maggard: Basketball, yeah. And Ray [Willsey] was here at the time, and Ray started winning, and then I came in as track coach. I think I’ve told you that story, did I not? The Stan Wright thing? I told you that about Wally calling Payton Jordan and so on.

05-00:17:59 Cummins: Yes.

05-00:18:00 Maggard: And Paul Brechler knew Ronald Reagan very well. Paul Brechler was never here. Never here. It was an absentee deal. Now, Ray was also the Assistant Athletic Director at the time and the football coach, so Ray was making a lot of the decisions, pretty much on his own. Well, we got this thing—the first thing that came up was all these allegations about all these recruiting violations, okay? So now Bob Kerley comes in—Roger Heyns hires him— and Bob begins to look at all this stuff. Arleigh Williams is also pretty involved in all of this. Now I’d have to tell you that Arleigh and Roger were very much in Ray’s corner. They liked him a lot. He was a Cal guy, he played here during the great Waldorf days, and so on and so forth. And he’d been an assistant at Texas when they hired him, under Darrell [K.] Royal. But anyhow, they found that they had all these recruiting violations, and that’s when they got into this whole business, that I told you about before, of fighting the NCAA.

05-00:19:11 Cummins: Yes.

05-00:19:17 Maggard: Well, [Biochemistry Professor] Robley Williams and this outside group had the lawsuit against the NCAA, and Bob went along with this, and Roger Heyns went along with it. They felt that the NCAA was very much after Cal because of its liberal business on campus and so on and so forth. So they let that go for a while and put Cal on probation for four years, which was unheard of. The whole department, the entire department. This was out of the Isaac Curtis thing along with the other kinds of things that they found. So now I’m hired. I’m hired, and Bob Steidel, shortly thereafter, comes in as the faculty rep. Bob was a good guy, a straight guy. I told the administration, “To fight the NCAA, you’re never going to win that battle. What we need to do is get on committees. We need to make nice with the NCAA to get back in their good graces.” So that’s what we started doing, and we finally got off probation, but that hurt. That really hurt the program again.

05-00:20:36 Cummins: And that was also part of this culture, so you had the Kerr view—

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05-00:20:41 Maggard: You had—in the old days they had all this great success. Everybody talked about Pappy’s Boys and all this and that—and it was still in existence, all those guys.

05-00:20:51 Cummins: Right.

05-00:20:51 Maggard: And so—they all referred back to those days—Ky Ebright and on and on and on. We had all these great teams. Now you have this whole business of Kerr coming in, the conference breaks up, they have this very big change of “the new people.” But the people who experienced all this still felt, “Cal should be what it was when we were in school.” So they go through this period of time of being really down, people being unhappy, and now they start to win a bit, Ray’s fired, Mike White comes in. Bad, good, so on and so forth, but a lot of problems on campus. And we also had some NCAA violations. So that’s when I said to Al Bowker, “Al, I think the guy should go.” He said, “Do it.” Al had been fed up with him by that time. The faculty was beginning to really put a lot of pressure on.

So I get the job and I’m looking around and I’m saying, “We’re trying to compete with these people. We need this, we need this, we need this.” And at the same time, we had our Reg Fee cut back. That’s when Bob Kerley said, “You’re going to have to start raising money.” So that’s when I said, “Okay. I’m going to start the Bear Backers,” and these guys—boom. So we started that, and we begin to have some success. I’m convinced, John, if we hadn’t started raising money in a good style I’d have been gone. I’d have been gone just like that. There is no question, because there was enough animosity from those guys, and they were banging on Al Bowker, but it was one of those things that they had to keep their mouth shut. Jay Jacobus was one of the other guys. So we finally started moving that up, but we didn’t have any real continuity until we got to the point to where I hired Bruce [Snyder] and Lou Campanelli, and that was the time when I said, “We really need to have the ability to pay these guys something that’s more competitive.” So I felt that we were really on a very positive track. We’d made up with the NCAA, I was on a lot of the NCAA committees, so was Steidel. We were in good shape within the conference.

05-00:23:36 Cummins: Did we have any major infractions the whole time you were AD?

05-00:23:39 Maggard: No.

05-00:23:39 Cummins: That’s impressive.

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05-00:23:40 Maggard: We had a situation with counters, and it never got to the NCAA, We handled it at the conference level. And so the answer is no, we didn’t.

Frank Brunk was here in the old Pappy Waldorf days. These guys who all said, hey, you need to do this and this—those guys were all here in the heyday of , Dick Erickson, all these guys who had gone through this thing and had had great success—Cal should be the same thing. In the meantime the institution had changed dramatically. It had become a much more liberal, active place, and they didn’t like that. A lot of them didn’t like that, wondered why the University couldn’t clamp down. And then you got into the People’s Park thing, and so you had this whole—the whole business. But I felt that we were really stabilizing things just prior to my leaving. I felt, “The program’s in good shape, I’ve done my deal—pfft—I’m leaving.”

05-00:24:49 Cummins: And you mentioned before—the contrast with Tien versus Heyman.

05-00:24:58 Maggard: Tien said a lot of things. He did a lot of things outwardly that looked like he was really supporting Athletics. Mike was much more honest. Mike’s whole thing was, “This is the way it’s going to be, and that’s it.” There was no question about where you stood. With Tien, he was much more—he was probably more political than Mike was, to some extent.

05-00:25:35 Cummins: Vis-à-vis the donors?

05-00:25:37 Maggard: Well, the donors—what Tien did is that he got down on the sideline. He’d get down on the sideline during football games, and they’d see him down there. Oh, that’s so great. This guy’s really supporting the program. That was his outward thing. He was kind of like a cheerleader, and everybody looked at him and said, “Boy, this is great. We’ve got a guy like this, very different than Mike Heyman. This guy loves athletics.” And he kept saying that, but I’m not so sure that he did anything for athletics. I don’t know what he did. But I think that Mike, in his approach, was much more honest than Tien, much more real.

And I think that while Bruce was here, and Lou, there was this moving back up, and the expectations started to come back and people started to say, “Hey, the program’s in good shape, money was being raised pretty well, the whole business. Mike had gotten the Development Office squared away. He was on a good track, I think, as far as—so I thought things were really going pretty well, and I was confident that at some point Wally, who represented the Haas family at that time, was going to do the Pavilion. He said he was going to, so I took him at his word. But I thought—this is a good time to go.

I missed it. But, John, there were a lot of battles early on, really a lot of battles. The first five years I was probably home only—very few nights. And

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it became one of those things—I had to figure out what to do with my time, which I really didn’t know at the time, because the Alumni Association would say, “Next week we want you to go to Chico to speak to this group.” I didn’t know how many people would be there. There’s fifteen people there, so I drive to Chico. The next week, “We want you to go to Bakersfield.” So it’s all over the place, and you don’t know what the priorities are and where the important things are to do. So it’s one of those things that in the beginning you can’t say no.

05-00:28:02 Cummins: You do everything.

05-00:28:02 Maggard: You’ve got to say yes. You’ve got to do everything until you figure out—this is what pays off and this doesn’t.

05-00:28:09 Cummins: And you were lucky to have Carolyn there.

05-00:28:13 Maggard: Exactly, and it was one of those things that—she loved athletics.

05-00:28:19 Cummins: Was she an athlete?

05-00:28:19 Maggard: No. We met when we were in high school. And so the athletic thing was already there and established, and there was never any secret about what I wanted to do—what I felt like what I wanted to do. I thought that the coaches that I’d had at Turlock were tremendous people. The one guy that was the Athletic Director that had been there for thirty-two years, went to Cal, and he’s the guy that said, “Hey—you want to be an Old Blue.”

05-00:28:57 Cummins: Was that Debley?

05-00:28:59 Maggard: Joe Debley, yeah.

05-00:29:00 Cummins: I don’t know if you remember, but his sister was my neighbor next door. And that’s when I first found out that—

05-00:29:08 Maggard: No, not the guy that was working in the communications here at the university.

05-00:29:13 Cummins: No, no.

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05-00:29:16 Maggard: Joe Debley at Turlock.

05-00:29:17 Cummins: Yeah, Joe Debley at Turlock.

05-00:29:17 Maggard: Yeah, Joe Debley, yeah.

05-00:29:19 Cummins: So my next-door neighbors down on Prince Street were Harry and Inez Smith, and that was Inez—

05-00:29:25 Maggard: I think his mother—because that’s where he grew up.

05-00:29:28 Cummins: Yeah, well Inez Debley was his sister, and he came from Turlock. And somehow they were up visiting—this is a long time ago now—because Conor, my son, was a baby. And that’s when I found out that he knew you, and he was a coach and had all this involvement. And he looks at my son, who was a baby, and he looks at his feet, and he says, “Wow! He’s got big feet. This is going to be a big kid.” So—my son is six four, he’s about 270 pounds. Then I told you. I said, “Hey, I didn’t know that you were from Turlock.”

05-00:30:11 Maggard: Joe Debley was one of the most versatile guys I think I’ve ever known in terms of teaching and coaching. During his period of time there at Turlock he coached everything. And he was a guy that—if you wanted your ankles taped—he got hurt when he was playing football here at Cal, and so he spent his time as an assistant trainer, and he was great at that stuff. Joe Debley was at Turlock for thirty-two years. And he was incredible in terms of his knowledge about sports, and his advice was always—I felt it was really good. And other coaches there too. My mentors and the people that I probably looked up to most at that time were the coaches, because they showed more interest—.

05-00:31:04 Cummins: Now was Debley here as a coach? Or he always stayed in Turlock, right?

05-00:31:07 Maggard: No, he was always in Turlock.

05-00:31:09 Cummins: Okay.

05-00:31:10 Maggard: He’s the guy that, when I was a junior, said, “You’re going to run for student body president next year.” I said, “No, I don’t want to do that, Joe.” He said, “Yeah, you’re going to.” And he forced me—when I say he forced me, he

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said, “You’re going to do that.” I did, and I was student body president. That’s the kind of guy he was.

05-00:31:35 Cummins: So he saw your leadership potential.

05-00:31:38 Maggard: Well, you know the other thing he did? As a freshman, I’d go out for— everybody plays everything when they’re young—football, basketball, baseball. So I pitched when I was seventh, eighth grade, so after football’s over and basketball, then everybody kind of went out for everything.

05-00:31:57 Cummins: Yeah, it’s a big change from today.

05-00:31:57 Maggard: Yeah, a big change. So I’ve got my glove on, and I’m headed out to the baseball field, and Joe—to this day I remember—he said, “Where the hell are you going?” And I said, “I’m going to play baseball.”

05-00:32:09 Cummins: How old were you?

05-00:32:12 Maggard: I was thirteen. And he said, “You’re not playing baseball. You’re going to be a weight man.”

05-00:32:21 Cummins: [laughs] Amazing.

05-00:32:21 Maggard: “You’re not going out for baseball.” And so I said, “Okay.” He said, “What position do you play?” I said, “Pitch.” I was a pitcher. He said, “Are you any good?” I said, “Yeah, I think I was—.” He said, “You’re not going out for baseball. You’re going to be a weight man. Get your butt over here.” And that was kind of it. He had a lot of influence on me, and so did some of the other coaches, especially the football coach. But yeah, I felt that I always owed them a lot in terms of thanks. I really appreciate what they did for me—the guidance, the time spent, all of those things were great things, and this is what led me, really, to coaching and teaching in high school. I thought it was a great thing. But anyhow, John, it’s an interesting time. I thought about myself pulling out a lot of stuff and trying to put it down.

05-00:33:19 Cummins: Do you have a bunch of files that you’ve kept?

05-00:33:24 Maggard: Oh, I’ve got some, but I’m not sure that I kept everything. You know what’s interesting about this? Before I went to Houston, Glenn Dickey wanted to write a book with me. He wanted me to write—

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05-00:33:37 Cummins: He’s still around, isn’t he?

05-00:33:39 Maggard: Yeah, he’s not working for the Chronicle anymore.

05-00:33:40 Cummins: No, right. He has a blog.

05-00:33:43 Maggard: He has a blog, yes. But anyhow he and I were going to do—he was going to help me write a book. And he and I met a couple of times, and I got this call to go to Houston. So I said, “I’m going to forget about this.” But I don’t know— putting these kinds of things in a cohesive kind of way. A lot of times, John, you’re not successful at selling something unless you make it sort of controversial. And that’s the problem with reading this pabulum stuff—and so what. And you don’t want to burn people or anything like that, it was no reason to but—

05-00:34:36 Cummins: But you know—I don’t know if you ever read Clark Kerr’s memoirs, The Gold and the Blue.

05-00:34:40 Maggard: I didn’t. I never have. Did he talk about that?

05-00:34:44 Cummins: It’s a two-volume work. He spent years on that, and there’s some stuff in there that is very critical of people. The way he did it was he wrote it and he sent it around to people, people that he’s being critical of—he said, “If I got this wrong, let me know.” He obviously had the final say about what went in and what went out, and not everybody got what they wanted. And so in terms of my own thinking about this, that’s kind of how I’m thinking about how I’m going to do this, because I think it’s very important that it be captured. I really do, because the frustrating thing for me in all these years at Cal is how we recreate the wheel, and the next crisis comes along, everybody kind of starts over. Somebody has to capture what’s happened here, from the sixties up to the present and say, “Look. This is right where we are.” And I think—now I’ve got some insights into this. I know where these critical decisions were made that start shifting things, changes the culture, et cetera.

05-00:35:55 Maggard: You know the other thing, John? That we haven’t talked about very much? The guy that was probably most helpful to me in terms of the Cal thing was Brutus.

05-00:36:02 Cummins: Brutus?

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05-00:36:03 Maggard: Yeah, Brutus, Brutus Hamilton. And I’ll tell you why.

05-00:36:07 Cummins: That’s interesting.

05-00:36:09 Maggard: Brutus was here as the athletic director. Brutus hired Pappy. Brutus hired Pete Newell. And Brutus was here during that whole period of time when the conference broke up, from the very beginning on until—and he was Sproul’s guy, Robert Sproul. Brutus Hamilton was his guy. Now, Brutus and I became really close just after I graduated, and he wanted me to hang around here and help him coach and this and that. We’d become pretty close then. So he called me over one day and he said, “The job as track coach over at San Francisco State is open.”

05-00:36:58 Cummins: Yes, right.

05-00:36:58 Maggard: The thing that was most helpful was that he was here over such a long period of time. When he and I were traveling over there, we’d sit up until all hours. And later he showed me some confidential letters and things that I would never let out.

05-00:37:19 Cummins: So you have it in your head.

05-00:37:21 Maggard: He had all of the information, and he told me a lot of confidential things about that period of time , Pappy’s time, hiring Pete Newell. Because he came here in 1932. I think he came here in 1932.

05-00:37:45 Cummins: Wow!

05-00:37:48 Maggard: Yeah. I still have some of his stuff, but you know what’s interesting? He went to University of Missouri. Brutus was an incredible athlete. He was a great football player, and he was the United States champion in 1920 and 1924. He won a silver medal in the decathlon in the Olympics in ’20. I think he got fifth in ’24. Then he was the head Olympic coach in 1952. And he had been—you know, the other thing that he told me about was—he was an assistant coach in ’36 in Berlin, and he told me a lot of stuff about that, and the whole bit. But John—if I’d have been really smart I’d have been keeping a diary, but I didn’t.

His daughter and I—she just passed away, Jean, Jean Runyon. She and I became really close friends in 1960. Runyon Saltzman [& Einhorn]— whatever else it is—she had the biggest advertising agency in Sacramento.

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She was Man of the Year one year. Jeannie Runyon was known by everybody, I mean everybody. And so we were really close until she passed away just a few months ago, as a matter of fact. I just talked to her son—he just called me the other day. I see him periodically. He used to come down here and play around—but Jeannie had a lot of information, and we were going to go—Don Bowden and I and Lon Spurrier. Lon, I guess, has Alzheimer’s. That’s what I understand. But Don and Gary—what’s his name? He teaches at UC Davis. Gary—he’s an economics professor at UC Davis. Gary [M.] Walton. He did write a book, I think, on Brutus.

05-00:40:12 Cummins: Oh, he did?

05-00:40:12 Maggard: Yeah, I think he did, as I recall seeing it. So we were going to do a new book—Don, Monte Upshaw, Gary Walton. I don’t know—and when Jean passed away it was kind of like well—but, as a matter of fact, I’m going to see Don. I’ll see Don Monday. He and I still stay in close contact. See, he was— you know Don Bowden’s history, or do you not?

05-00:40:48 Cummins: No.

05-00:40:48 Maggard: Don Bowden is the first American to ever run under four minutes in the mile.

05-00:40:52 Cummins: Oh, okay, yes.

05-00:40:53 Maggard: He was the American record holder in—I can’t remember what year it was. But anyhow, it’s a good story. He took an econ final exam that morning, and then drove to Stockton that afternoon, and ran in the early twilight and broke the American record. The first guy in American history to run under four minutes. Don has—he’s come back—he’s pretty involved with the Big C stuff now. And Monte Upshaw has helped a lot. You know his daughter’s Joy Upshaw [Margerum], Grace—his granddaughter now is coming here next year. And Grace went to the Olympics—I think she’s been on two Olympic teams. Monte broke Jesse Owens’s long jump record when he was at Piedmont High School.

05-00:41:51 Cummins: Wow!

05-00:41:54 Maggard: He broke the national high school record held by Jesse Owens for eons. He got hurt, but he was a great athlete at Piedmont High. Monte Upshaw is a terrific guy. He’s really tried to help Tony Sandoval and Ed Miller, and has been very supportive of the track situation. Bowden as well. But Don and I lost contact for a period of time, but since I’ve been back we’ve seen each

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other quite a number of times, and I’ll see him on Monday. So in terms of talking with people—I’ll tell you a guy who would have a lot of history—Ed Bartlett. Do you know Ed Bartlett?

05-00:42:59 Cummins: Yeah, from a long time ago. I haven’t talked to him in years.

05-00:43:02 Maggard: Ed played for Pappy. He was here during that period of time. He knows Frank Brunk very well, he was a good friend of ’s. That period of time when Pete Schabarum was here—those were all guys from Southern California. Guys that the Southern Seas sent up, said these guys can play, take them, we’ve scouted them. These guys can play. That was it. So it’s interesting. And sometimes things will come to mind off and on.

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Interview 3: June 6, 2011 Audio File 6

06-00:00:00 Cummins: Okay, this is the third interview with Dave Maggard on intercollegiate athletics. It is June 3, 2011. We were just saying, Dave, you may want to comment on matters related to coaching since you were a coach at Cal and in high school and then became an AD, and anything you wanted to say about that.

06-00:00:32 Maggard: I think coaches had a big impact on my life beginning way back in the high school teams. I had a very personal relationship with several coaches who coached me in high school, so I always had an interest in coaching. I always felt that I wanted to coach and teach, and I think it was because of the impact that they had on me relative to— This is what I learned. I’ve always felt that you excel if you can, you win if you can—the idea is to compete, compete as hard as you can. And if the contest keeps score, then you try to have the highest, or lowest score, whatever it is that wins the game. Now, on the other side of that I think all of those coaches really instilled in me not only the idea that you win and do the best you possibly can, but you do it in the right way. You do it in a way that keeps other things in perspective.

Brutus [Hamilton] was the best at this—I mean he was phenomenal. Don Bowden, who of course was coached by Brutus and a great, great athlete—he and I talk about Brutus fairly often. And Brutus always felt that athletics was only going to be a part of your life and that you needed to prepare for what you were “going to do in life” other than just either playing football or competing in track or whatever. So he was strong on that, and I think that he conveyed that in a very consistent way. This he did well after I had even left Cal and I was teaching and coaching in a high school. He and I stayed in close contact, and I think he set an example. He not only set an example but also simply gave a lot of his life experiences which would be in the direction of athletics—wonderful, great, do the best you can. He was a great athlete.

06-00:03:30 Cummins: Yes.

06-00:03:30 Maggard: He may have been—I read an article recently—he may have been the best athlete to come out of Missouri, ever. When you look at a guy that won the decathlon, was an All- player, and did very, very well academically as well. Brutus could have done anything he wanted to have done, whatever career or profession, but he enjoyed the coaching part of it, the teaching part about it, and also just the relationships with the athletes, watching them as they went out and “grew up.” So I would say that I got a lot of that from his influence, although the others had pretty much the same—and

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a lot of people mistake people like that as not wanting to win or do well, which is not the case.

06-00:04:38 Cummins: Sure.

06-00:04:39 Maggard: During the time I was coaching, even at Los Altos, I was moving in a direction of administration. I was director of Student Activities for a period of time, and then when I came to Cal we were doing all of these big competitions that included marketing, selling advertising, travel stuff, I mean everything. Some of these were an out-of-your-back-pocket kind of operation, and so you had a part in all of this and these things were successful. I think that was one of the reasons that Al Bowker and Bob Kerley looked at me as a possible candidate to be the athletic director.

Now the coaching part of it gives you a great understanding about the athletes—that’s the value of that, of going from the coaching world to an administrator, because it gives you a feel of who the athletes are, what they’re about, and so on and so forth. That’s a big help. You continue to remind yourself of why you’re there, and I think even as I got up into the years, I never lost that feeling of wanting to be in touch with the athletes. I’d travel with the teams, I’d meet with the teams—and the whole business of trying to help athletes once they graduate to get jobs. As a matter of fact, I have five people right now who I e-mail, write letters of recommendation, have been making phone calls for just recently in an effort to help them, and that’s the value of it really. That’s in addition to the other kinds of rewards, whatever they may be, I think it’s helping someone. I think that was a real aid in terms of my moving from the “coaching world” into administration, so that, I think, is the greatest value.

Can you be a really good administrator and not have been a coach? I’m sure you probably can. Now there’s some people who never really like being an administrator, like being an athletic director—Pete [Peter F.] Newell didn’t. Pete Newell did not enjoy being an athletic director. Pete was a basketball man, and that’s what he loved. Until the day he died he was giving clinics on basketball. So I don’t think there’s a mold, necessarily, but I think from my standpoint it was very helpful to have been involved in coaching and then into administration.

06-00:08:39 Cummins: Right.

06-00:08:40 Maggard: The other areas of managing a budget, all of the other things in terms of putting international competitions together was also very helpful.

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06-00:08:54 Cummins: Right. Now Steve Gladstone was both a coach and an athletic director. What’s your view on doing both of these?

06-00:09:03 Maggard: Well, I think it depends upon the individual. I was one of the most shocked guys in the world when Steve got the job as Athletic Director. I hired him as a crew coach, and Steve was a very good crew coach. Steve was one of those people who did not like paperwork, never got anything in on time, and, without being condescending toward him, I think the big push for him was to— First of all he had some friends who were powerful alums who I think wanted to see the crew program flourish. Steve, of course, had that great interest. And I think that a lot of people simply felt that Steve wanted that job to be the highest-paid crew coach in the country. And again, what kind of job did Steve do? I don’t know. I don’t know him as an athletic director, but I’d say that probably—I’d say it doesn’t work out that well. I’d say that it’s very difficult to divide them timewise, if you’re going to do a great job in both. I think that what he found was that he didn’t want to do both, or he didn’t have the time to do both, or whatever—and coaching was his first love. He’s back coaching now, at Brown I think.

06-00:10:35 Cummins: At Yale, I think.

06-00:10:36 Maggard: Yale, I’m sorry.

06-00:10:37 Cummins: Yes.

06-00:10:39 Maggard: The coaching life was it for him.

I think maybe it can be done, and it was done a lot way back. The head football coach oftentimes was also the athletic director, and then when the football coach retired from coaching, he moved into being an athletic director full-time. There are all kinds of examples of that if you go back—Vince [Vincent J.] Dooley, on and on and on. I think that’s harder to do today. I think the demands to be an athletic director, if you’re really on top of the management aspect of the department, I think would be very, very difficult to do. And I would not advise it today, in today’s world of intercollegiate athletics, unless you had a very small program.

02-00:11:47 Cummins: Yes, very different, of course.

06-00:11:48 Maggard: You have alumni relations, fundraising, and the other part of it is that there were those in the Department at the time who complained that Steve simply favored crew, and that was kind of it. Now, I don’t know if that was fair,

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because I didn’t recommend Steve, I recommended Bob Driscoll. And I think that Steve, to be honest with you—I think Steve double-dealt him. I think he got him. Because Bob told me, he said, “Steve tells me he’s all for me; he’s supporting me.” And at the last minute—and I don’t know, you’d know more about this than I would—Bob thought he had the job. Bob thought that the Chancellor pretty much indicated to him that he had the job. And then this meeting occurred apparently, with this group of powerful alums and they said we want Steve Gladstone as the Athletic Director.

06-00:13:20 Cummins: Right, but it’s very difficult, I think most people would say, to do both of these.

06-00:13:26 Maggard: I think in a Division I-A program today?

06-00:13:28 Cummins: Almost impossible.

06-00:13:29 Maggard: I wouldn’t advise it in any of those circumstances, unless it was on a very temporary, interim basis. I really wouldn’t.

06-00:13:40 Cummins: Okay, so then the other topic that we didn’t discuss very much—you do mention it but we don’t go into it very much—is the sports medicine.

06-00:13:52 Maggard: Right.

06-00:13:52 Cummins: And how that has evolved over time. And so any thoughts you had about that, how it worked at Cal when you started, whatever you would like to say about that.

06-00:14:05 Maggard: Well, first of all Jerry [Jerome H.] Patmont was the team physician, and he was the team physician for a very long period of time. Brick [Harold P.] Muller was the orthopedic person, and he did all of the knee surgeries and so on and so forth. Brick was an incredible man. He was noted as a great surgeon; he had been a great, great athlete at Cal. He and Brutus Hamilton were very close friends. I think what I saw is that Jerry called in “experts.” He always had someone come in who was an expert on knees, shoulders, whatever. Jerry might diagnose it as this, or this, or this, but he would always have someone confirm that. I think the other part of it is that he had a great interest in athletics. He liked the coaches, he liked the kids, and so I think he did a great job.

Now in terms of the training staff, I think they did a great job too. But it was different, though. It was much more a good ol’ boy sort of an atmosphere in

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some respects, but it worked for the athletes at that time. The trainers were people who sometimes had more information about a student athlete than a lot of the other people, and so I’d say that it was really very good. Now, was there any abuse in terms of drug stuff or whatever? I don’t know of any of that. I am not aware that any of that might have occurred. The drug situation did change dramatically. There was a period of time—I think it was in the 1980s—when anabolic steroids were banned. Up until that time they were “legal.” Somebody may not think it’s a good idea, but they were legal up until—and I can’t remember the year, but I believe it was in the early eighties, if I’m not mistaken. So I thought it was very good.

I got Bill Coysh involved, and the reason that I got Bill Coysh involved is that I noticed that some of the athletes—there were some issues that they had a difficult time with with the coaches. They felt the coach didn’t understand them, or it was this kind of a problem, or that kind of a problem, or whatever. Jane—was it Jane [D.] Moorman?

06-00:17:10 Cummins: Yes.

06-00:17:12 Maggard: I liked Jane a lot. I thought she was a perfect—

06-00:17:16 Cummins: Absolutely. She was the Director of Counseling.

06-00:17:18 Maggard: Right, I thought she was a wonderful woman. Well, anyhow, I called Jane one day and said, “Jane, I’m thinking about trying to find somebody that the student athletes could go to on a confidential basis and maybe help them through some of the difficulties that they may be having emotionally.” She says, “I’ll call you back.” So she called me back, and she said, “I think I have the guy for you.” And I said, “Tell me about him.” And she said, “Well, he works in the counseling center; he’s very interested in athletics. The kids like him very much, and so I would recommend him.” So I said, “Send him over. I’d like to talk to him.”

Bill comes over, and we talk for a long period of time. He had not done any “counseling” in sports, and here’s what I told him. I said, “Bill, I don’t want you to be a coach. I don’t want you trying to coach the kids. Here’s what I would want—I want you to be very low key. I don’t want it to be one of those situations where somebody says, ‘Hey, so and so is getting a shrink to help them out,’ I don’t want that. I want it to be one of those situations where we talk about it as counseling. If you have things you want to talk about with someone, and someone who’s a professional, then Bill is going to be available. And here’s when he’s available and here’s where he’s going to be.”

I knew the [Oakland] A’s had a psychologist, all right?

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06-00:19:09 Cummins: This was kind of new territory at that time.

06-00:19:10 Maggard: It was new—there had been a period of time, [Thomas] Tutko and [Bruce] Ogilvie, down at San Jose State, had been the people who pioneered this, in a way. But it was still very new in terms of—some of the pro teams had them, a few of them. The one thing that I noticed, and I told Bill this—I said, “Bill, I read about the San Diego Chargers and their psychologist. They may be the worst team in the NFL right now. Supposing this guy is telling guys how to play and what they’re doing wrong? Listen, I don’t want any of that— completely off that.” So I called Wally Haas and I said, “Wally, I understand you have a psychologist with the team? He said, “Yeah, he’s really good.” And I said, “Well, what if Bill and I fly down to spring training and visit with him for a day so?” I’m a little vague on this, but I think I have this right. And he said, “You don’t have to do that. I’ll bring him up to you. I’ll fly him to you.” So the guy came up. We spent—I can’t remember—we spent a good part of the day, “What’s your approach? What do you do?” The whole bit.

06-00:20:44 Cummins: Do you remember his name?

06-00:20:45 Maggard: No, I don’t. Bill might, and I would think that Bill would remember it. So anyhow, we started this thing.

06-00:20:57 Cummins: And in roughly what year, Dave, are we talking? Was it in the earlier days or was it later on?

06-00:21:04 Maggard: Lou Campanelli was coaching—

06-00:21:06 Cummins: Oh, okay, so it had to be—

06-00:21:08 Maggard: —at the time, so it was a little bit, let’s see. Actually as a matter of fact—

06-00:21:17 Cummins: So that would be in the mid- to late eighties.

06-00:21:21 Maggard: Yeah, I think it might have been.

06-00:21:23 Cummins: That’s okay, we can find it. Bill will remember.

06-00:21:28 Maggard: Bill will remember, I think. Anyhow, I said, “Bill, take an office someplace, so that it’s not in the coach’s office or whatever.” So here’s the way that I

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introduced it. I just said at a team meeting one time, I said, “This is Bill Coysh. He works in counseling here in the university. I want all of you to understand that anything you talk with him about is confidential, completely confidential. If you may be having difficulties in whatever phase of your life, then Bill is available to you.” So okay, this starts out.

06-00:22:16 Cummins: And this was to the coaches?

06-00:22:18 Maggard: This was to all the coaches and athletes.

06-00:22:20 Cummins: And athletes.

06-00:22:21 Maggard: Athletes.

06-00:22:21 Cummins: Both, okay, good.

06-00:22:23 Maggard: And the athletes. As it turned out he probably did more counseling with the coaches than he did with the athletes. But anyhow, that started, so Bill said, along the way, “More and more of the athletes are coming by. They know where I am now.” We had an office down in Harmon [Gym]. So then I had him start traveling with the football team so that he could get to know the guys; he was around. And I said, “Bill is going to be around. He’s going to be—not in any way intrude upon your—whatever, and he’s not going to tell you how to kick field goals or anything else.” So Bill said, “More and more of these guys are coming by to see me on Friday night.” At the hotel, wherever we were staying.

So Bill really got embedded, I guess is the word, into the whole thing, and it was a very good thing for us. And it was a very good thing for us because of who he is and was. I don’t know if it would work for everybody, but from the standpoint of what I felt that it should be, because of the age of the college athlete, and so on, I did not want a high-visibility psychologist. And I told Bill that. I said, “Bill, I’m not looking for somebody who’s going to the newspaper and saying, ‘We’ve got this kind of a program, and I’m doing this and I’m doing this.’ I don’t want that at all. I want it really within the “athletic family.” So he said, “Yeah, okay, that’s fine.” And that’s the way he was, and he was a tremendous help. You know, I think that we all learned a little bit as we went along, but I think it was a “new part” of sports medicine. I felt that dealing with injuries and all, whatever they might be, I think was being handled very well.

The training staff—Jerry [Patmont] was here much more than most team physicians would be, much more.

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06-00:25:03 Cummins: Did he report to you? What was that like?

06-00:25:06 Maggard: Oh, he sort of reported to me, but I think that somebody else was his—over at Cowell [Hospital]. Yeah, it was good, it was great, because I questioned Jerry all the time. I knew Jerry really well. Jerry delivered—Jerry was Carolyn’s doctor when she was pregnant, when we were still in school. So, it goes way back, and it enabled me to—both of us—to be able to talk about anything.

06-00:25:40 Cummins: Oh yeah. And were those issues a lot about return to play for athletes? How did that all work at that point in time? Would the AD get involved in that kind of thing?

06-00:25:55 Maggard: No, never.

06-00:25:56 Cummins: So that was between the coach and the doctor then?

06-00:25:59 Maggard: But here’s what I told the coaches. When he says a kid can’t play, he can’t play, and that’s it. So I said, “I don’t want anybody browbeating him. I’m not going to. The only thing I’m going to do is say how is so-and-so coming along?” He might tell me the kid is really—there’s not that much wrong with him. We may have to do this and this and this.” He was almost at every practice in football, every practice. He was—I don’t remember him ever missing a game, even on the road.

06-00:26:45 Cummins: Amazing.

06-00:26:47 Maggard: He was with us on the road all the time. So, Jerry was more kind of a—I’d say that probably he enjoyed maybe that part of what he was doing more than even his medical practice. Because he liked it a lot, he really enjoyed it. I spoke at his service two or three years ago. I saw Jim, his son, not long ago but—great people.

We had a guy at [University of] Miami that was a really good, one of the foremost guys in orthopedic stuff, John [W.] Uribe and he was a doctor that did a lot of stuff on—pro athletes would come down there and the whole bit. He was really good. And he went on every trip with us and he was not at every practice, but we had a doctor that was at almost every practice, and so that worked out well.

At [the University of] Houston we had a superb group of trainers. Very professional, well-educated guys that were very knowledgeable. We had a guy who was a hotshot surgeon on knees and shoulders—he’s also the Texans’

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team physician. He was the [Houston] Rockets’ team physician. This doctor became one of those guys that everybody came to. He didn’t have as much time, so we had a resident physician a lot. I think that person was pretty much at every practice and also then in the training room after practice was over. And if the kids had something he needed to take a look at—from a sore throat, a cold, or any other illness. That staff was really good, and I think that’s sort of what most of these doctors are about today. I think they’re all board- certified, and they do a great job.

The big problem that you get into, and I think it’s more in professional football, but it can be in too, is the coach saying you need to play, you need to be playing even though the athlete is injured. You can’t have that. I mean that’s where you really get in trouble. That’s where you get parents and athletes coming back and suing you. We didn’t have a lot of that. We didn’t have a lot of grousing from the athletes at that time, and I think it was pretty good.

Now, one of the things that I started at Miami—I did it a little bit at Cal but not on the kind of formal basis that I did at Miami and Houston—was exit interviews of all the senior athletes. I didn’t do them; I had faculty people do them. And one of the highest marks that we got at Houston was the training quarters. This is an invaluable tool, John. Every senior athlete who has been through the program, they did an evaluation with the faculty rep or another faculty member. The only question I would ever ask is, how was this part of it viewed, how was this coach viewed, how was this viewed, etcetera. But I didn’t do the interviews because I felt that it would color things. Did kids come to me at different times? Yes. And would they maybe complain a little bit? You know they might.

I’d say the sports medicine has now become much more sophisticated along the way. I’d say that overall the people involved in sports medicine are more highly trained. I’ll give you an example. Jack Williamson was a trainer here for eons. He was a great trainer—but do you know he learned? On the job.

06-00:32:10 Cummins: On the job, right.

06-00:32:11 Maggard: Do you know that he was at Northwestern with Pappy? The equipment guy. He came out to Cal with Pappy Waldorf, and he was the guy that essentially had the equipment room. Jack was a smart guy, and he was a guy that was very sure of himself, and he learned. He would go in—he watched a lot of surgeries—knee surgeries, shoulder surgeries, etcetera. I’ve never seen a guy who could tape an ankle faster than Jack Williamson. Jack was a strong guy, a very masculine kind of guy. So Jack was very sure of himself, and as a consequence nobody questioned him very much. It was one of those situations

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that—and he was good. He did a very, very good job and the athletes had a lot of respect for him.

06-00:33:31 Cummins: Trained on the job?

06-00:33:32 Maggard: Jack started way back.

06-00:33:35 Cummins: Yes.

06-00:33:36 Maggard: When did Pappy come here—1947 or ‘48? Something like that. Well, Jack came with him. He and Jerry Patmont were very close, so he didn’t float through his job at all. It was always—what can we do better?

06-00:34:08 Cummins: Well, and the knowledge has increased too, just on the concussions and things like that.

06-00:34:11 Maggard: Yes, absolutely. They’ll keep guys out now if there’s any question about it. And I’ll never forget—I was a sophomore, and it was one of those things that really irritated me at the time, but I’d see what happened, and this is an example. Three days before the Big Game I was scheduled to start that game, and I got knocked out in practice. I think it was on Tuesday, I got my bell rung a little bit, and so the doctor wouldn’t let me practice the next day. Pete Elliott’s way of dealing with that was that if you don’t practice, you don’t start. That was it; that was the deal—you don’t practice, you don’t start. And so, I played a lot in that game, but I didn’t start that game. I was really irritated.

06-00:35:13 Cummins: Looking back.

06-00:35:14 Maggard: In some places I would never have been held out. I would have practiced.

06-00:35:22 Cummins: Right.

06-00:35:22 Maggard: When you start reading about and hearing about the old Bear [Paul W.] Bryant days and all that kind of stuff. Frank [J.] Kush was the same way at Arizona State before he got fired. So there were—the blood-and-guts stuff for coaches was very different than it is today.

06-00:35:49 Cummins: Yes.

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06-00:35:51 Maggard: I think that this whole business of concussions now, and people being much more attuned to making certain that the athlete is not in jeopardy, I think is an important thing.

06-00:36:09 Cummins: Yeah, even this Buster Posey incident is another example, all the discussion now. Is that fair? To smash into the catcher.

06-00:36:22 Maggard: Exactly, that’s the way it was. It was kind of like, “Hey, if you’re going to play athletics you’re going to be a man.”

06-00:36:28 Cummins: That’s just the way it is.

06-00:36:28 Maggard: I mean that’s it. You suck it up. Some of these guys, some of these coaches, their favorite saying was you don’t make the club in the tub. Now it’s in a whirlpool or whatever.

06-00:36:42 Cummins: Exactly.

06-00:36:47 Maggard: The message came across very loud and clear.

06-00:36:52 Cummins: Now, with regard to the medical practice in athletics, is it fair to say that football and basketball got the attention first vis-à-vis the Olympic sports?

06-00:37:06 Maggard: Yes.

06-00:37:08 Cummins: There was also a resource issue, right?

06-00:37:10 Maggard: Yes, there is no question about it. We had it split up, and baseball got a lot of attention; track got a lot of attention. But it wasn’t like they were there for practice, they were there for meets and so on. But there wasn’t always some—

06-00:37:33 Cummins: Take longer to get attention, that kind of thing?

06-00:37:35 Maggard: Maybe a little bit, but the numbers are different in football too. So you’ve got a whole different situation there, plus the fact that you are apt to have more injuries, more things that would need attention. Basketball—you know Jerry was there at every basketball game. He traveled with basketball only on occasion, not often. But he was at every basketball game. Yes, I’d have to say

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that resources would dictate that football and basketball were going to get more than the others just because of the numbers.

06-00:38:23 Cummins: In the interview I’m doing with Cindy Chang now, her background is she got her training at Ohio State. She also played; she was an athlete.

06-00:38:37 Maggard: Oh okay, what sport, do you know?

06-00:38:40 Cummins: She played a lot of sports at the high school level, volleyball, basketball, track. And, of course, she’s Chinese. The volleyball coach started promoting her for an athletic scholarship. Her parents, Chinese, put a stop to that and said “No, you’re going to college to study, it’s not about playing,” a very interesting cultural kind of thing. But anyway, then she goes to Ohio State medical school, she works in sports medicine at Ohio State [College of Medicine] as a medical student. Then she does a residency or fellowship at UCLA in sports medicine there for the various teams. And really, she made this point about the fact that if you have a Division-I school that is part of a medical school— you know, the medical school is right on campus—it’s a very different way of doing things. So it’s a huge advantage.

06-00:39:56 Maggard: Oh, absolutely.

06-00:39:57 Cummins: And so again, that did not occur to me until I did that interview. I don’t know how much it relates in terms of a level playing field, but it’s a huge advantage obviously to the athletic program.

06-00:40:10 Maggard: It was a little bit that way when Cowell was operating. There was a little bit of that then. But no, I would agree with you on that, absolutely.

06-00:40:21 Cummins: With Cowell, okay. [At Ohio State] you’ve got all these doctors right there on site, all of the research, everything, It’s the top level right there.

06-00:40:33 Maggard: But here’s how it has changed. I was just thinking about this—1956, I’m playing football, we’re playing at Lodi High School at night. I break my leg, right here. [indicates location] I came out of the game, and the coach that we had at that time said, “You son of a bitch, you go back in the game.” I went back in the game and couldn’t walk. So we came back home, they let me off at my house—the bus. I was in the back of the bus, they laid me down, and they let me off at my house. The next morning I went to the hospital, and they put me in the hospital—seven days. This is a guy, John, that he and I were close up until the time he died a couple years ago. He was eighty-five.

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Another thing that he did, just to give you an idea of this—and he was tough, he was really a tough guy. We had a kid, a Hispanic kid, who was a tough kid. As a matter of fact, he got in a knife fight and went to Deuel Vocational Institution for six months or something. He came back and finished school, played football. But out at practice we had a group over here, and these guys are over here, and he gets in a fight with one of the guys out on the field. And so Dave Weiss, who was the head coach at that time, yells, same guy, he yells, “Hey, knock it off.” Well, these guys kept on. Dave came over there, and we wore—at that time it was leather helmets, and we didn’t have a bar until I was a senior. Until I was a senior there was just that little bar. He came over and took out a roundhouse shot, caught Albert right on the ear and knocked him flat—he knocked him flat. He knocked him right on his butt, and everybody just kind of stood there. And you know what, John? You never questioned anything.

06-00:42:48 Cummins: Yeah, no repercussions.

06-00:42:49 Maggard: You never questioned.

06-00:42:50 Cummins: What did your parents say when you end up being in the hospital for seven days?

06-00:42:56 Maggard: Oh, they weren’t happy about it. But again it’s one of those things where you play the game, it’s—

06-00:43:07 Cummins: It’s expected.

06-00:43:09 Maggard: But here you are, this is in the mid- and late fifties, all right? So there’d be a lawsuit, in like two minutes today.

06-00:43:20 Cummins: No question.

06-00:43:22 Maggard: That’s just the way it was, and that was the same period of time when had all those guys in Junction City [Texas] and all these horrendous stories. But everybody was doing that John, everybody was kind of like, “No you don’t drink water. You cannot drink water during practice; you’re not tough if you drink water. If you can’t go through this practice or this practice, you don’t belong out here and you’re a chicken shit.” Stuff like that. So it was one of those things that if you wanted to do it you put up with it.

06-00:43:57 Cummins: You had to put up with it.

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06-00:44:00 Maggard: But it was a thing to see. I mean, we all stood there dumbfounded, and Albert just absolutely hit the ground. It didn’t knock him out, but it knocked him right on his butt. And Dave came around and, Pow! Right against—it caught his helmet, and he just went boom. And he would say this, he’d say, “Hey, if I had my arm cut off I could still play.”

06-00:44:32 Cummins: Unbelievable.

06-00:44:34 Maggard: “If I had my arm cut off, I could still play.”

06-00:44:39 Cummins: And he meant it.

06-00:44:40 Maggard: Oh, no question about it. And yet Dave was one of those guys that—he was really interested in me, we were close But that was just the mentality. And it was up until his dying day. I came back for something—when I was in Atlanta I came back for something that was for him and I felt that I owed him a lot because he—

06-00:45:16 Cummins: Right, amazing.

Now, this isn’t in the interview so if I get this wrong just forgive me and we can take this out. But you told me about a situation when you went to Miami and you went in the locker room. Do you want to talk about that? You don’t have to name names—I’m just—or you can seal it even, but I’m just curious.

06-00:45:46 Maggard: I think it was in the newspaper.

06-00:45:47 Cummins: Okay.

06-00:45:49 Maggard: Shortly after I got there, and Tad Foote, who I had known a little bit before, who was the president, was very upset with the team at that time. They had gone to the Cotton Bowl that same year, they’d ripped Texas, and there was all kinds of misbehavior on the field—guys going through all kinds of antics. Now, they were having a lot of behavioral problems. So Tad says, “You’ve got to get some things squared away.” So it immediately became one of those things of this guy is—we need to watch him, he’s supposed to be the new sheriff.

06-00:46:36 Cummins: Yeah, the new sheriff, right.

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06-00:46:38 Maggard: So, I’m getting to know these kids, and I’m inviting the seniors into my office for sandwiches and Cokes every Friday, I think it was, for a while. So I’m getting to know these guys. I’m walking around, and I had on a tie that was loose, and a white shirt/no jacket, and I’d just gone down to the training room to see what was going on. The door opened to the locker room, and I walked in. I think this was on a Thursday—it might have been on a Friday, but during the spring practice—and when you’re going to have a scrimmage, usually the day before it’s a little less intense. So I open the door and there were helmets flying through the air, there were shoulder pads flying through the air, and guys were popping each other with towels, and it was just wacko. So I walked in and said—I yelled real loud—I said, “Hey, knock it off.” So everything went real quiet. [laughs] I thought, “What do I do now?” So I started to walk through the room.

Now, Mark Caesar was off the streets of Newark, New Jersey, and he was a tough guy. Mark was six four-and-a-half and about 308, big guy. He played nose guard. And he got a cup of coffee later with the Dolphins. Anyhow, I start to walk through the room, and Mark is standing there in his jock strap, and he’s got a towel. So as I start to walk through he walks out in front of me and puts his chest out. And there’s a couch right behind him, one of these old leather, beat-up couches. So I started to walk by, and Mark moves up in front of me, and I stopped and said, “Mark, you really think you’re pretty tough don’t you?” And then I took my arm and I just [sound of impact] did like that, and I knocked him over the couch. So he crawls around and grabs me by the legs and pulls me down, and we start wrestling on the floor, and so all these guys were going nuts. They got around, they were stomping and clapping, the whole bit, “Hit him! This is our chance.”

06-00:49:29 Cummins: Oh my god, you’re in there by yourself, too! [laughs]

06-00:49:32 Maggard: Somebody would rap me on the back a little bit. And so we—until we both started laughing, and we got up. Gino Torretta was on that team, and Gino is from Pinole. Just as I was getting up he was going to tap me on the head, like that, and I said, “Gino, you ‘re nothing but a chicken shit.” [laughs] He said, “I wasn’t going to hit you; I wasn’t going to hit you.” I said, “I saw you, I saw you.” Anyhow, I’ll tell you, after that—

06-00:50:06 Cummins: No problems, huh?

06-00:50:09 Maggard: —we had a really, really close relationship with that whole team. And as a matter of fact Mark Caesar was the same guy that got arrested up at Tallahassee sitting on a bench. I was on the sideline, we were playing Florida State, and people were throwing ice down on us. And so Mark was sitting on

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the bench like this, and a bunch of ice came down on his head, and he just picked it up and went like that. And there was a state trooper right there, and the guy’s going to arrest him! And I said, “You’ve got to be kidding me? I was standing right here. That was totally unintentional. I’ve been on the sideline the whole time—they’ve been throwing pennies, they’ve been throwing everything on us.” So Tad Foote got a hold of this, and he called me, and he was really ticked off. I said, “Tad, hold on.”

06-00:51:13 Cummins: Ticked at who?

06-00:51:15 Maggard: He was ticked at Mark, and was really mad about the situation because he was—they hauled him out and they were going to arrest him and—

06-00:51:24 Cummins: Oh, they did haul him out anyway?

06-00:51:26 Maggard: —he was going to have to make a court appearance. And I said, “This is insane. No Tad, this is one time I take up for the kid. There is no possible way. This is a redneck deal, and there is no possible way that that was his fault. I’ll stand up for him on this any time.” And so Tad cooled down, and Mark knew. Mark knew, and I told him, “Hey Mark, you do the right thing, I’ll always uphold you. You don’t, then I’m not going to uphold you.”

06-00:52:12 Cummins: See, it’s interesting that, your background, who you are, the Olympic athlete, the whole thing. It gives you an incredible amount of standing in that whole group—coaches, athletes, the whole thing, right?

06-00:52:33 Maggard: Yeah, and you don’t have to put this in, but I’ll tell you, we had a group of guys—Houston, when I went there, was about as bad. Houston was guys didn’t go to class, they’re this, they’re that.

06-00:52:50 Cummins: Yeah, and you mentioned some of that, the summer classes.

06-00:52:54 Maggard: Art Briles left a month before we were playing the Texas Bowl—went to Baylor and got the big contract. I mean, we didn’t have a head coach—he just leaves. So I was going to put an interim coach up, so I said, “I want to meet with the team.” We went down to the theater, the Carl Lewis Theater, and I said, “We don’t have a coach right now, but we have an interim coach. You see all those assistant coaches lined up back there?” Because there were two or three of them that I knew were doing this. They were making calls for Baylor because they planned to go with Art. And I said, “If I hear of any coach making a call, a recruiting call for another college while they’re here I’m going to fire them. Do you guys understand that? And the reason I’m

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going to do it is because you deserve more than that. You look at these guys back here. If they don’t give you every minute of their attention they’re not going to be here. We’re going to have an interim coach. Do you know what? I look around this room. I don’t see anybody very tough in here. I don’t think there’s a guy in this room that could kick my ass”. So these guys get really quiet.

06-00:54:49 Cummins: I’ll bet.

06-00:54:51 Maggard: [laughs] They got really quiet. One of the kids, he does like this [makes a gesture] and I said, “You want to try it?” So now there’s this little son of a gun, Anthony Alridge. He was the fastest guy in college football at the time, and boy he was a pistol. He got drafted, he may be on one of the workout teams now, I don’t know, but he was as feisty as he could be. I said, “By the way, where’s Anthony Alridge today? He’s not here is he? You tell him I want to see him in my office tomorrow.” And so Anthony Alridge comes in and I said, “Anthony, are you with us or not? Are you bellying up?” And he said, “No, I’m with you. I’m cool.” I said, “We’ve got a bowl game man. What are you doing?” “No, I’m with you.” He said, “Hey, I heard what you did at the meeting yesterday. If I’d have been there we would have both been on the floor.” I said, “Anthony, that’s what I love about you.” [laughs]

06-00:56:11 Cummins: Amazing, yeah.

06-00:56:15 Maggard: You lose the interest, when you lose the interest in the kid—and there were two or three times that I wouldn’t pay for their summer school. When I say we, the department wouldn’t, and the guys got really ticked off. And I said, “Hey, you know what the deal is. It’s not going to happen.” One of the kids, Donny Avery, is really doing well with the St. Louis Cardinals, doing great. I said “Donny,”—he got summer school aid on his own. I thought he was going to really be mad at me. He said, “Oh, I screwed up.”

06-00:57:00 Cummins: Yeah.

06-00:57:00 Maggard: And I told a story at the football banquet. I said, “I want you to know that this guy right here has finished school now. He did it like somebody who stood up and said, ‘Okay. I’m going to do it. I’m going to do it.’ Take a look at him. He has been drafted. Donny, you’re great for this university”

But you know if you have some things like that—and I guess, John, in all of it, having been an athlete and growing up in that kind of environment—what does an athlete respect? Well, they want you to be genuine, number one. They want you to be somebody that they know who you are. I mean for the most

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part, you are not going to lie to them. And sometimes when they need it, you just say hey, not going to happen. So yeah, I enjoyed it. John, I probably would have stayed another couple of years.

06-00:58:30 Cummins: At Houston?

06-00:58:31 Maggard: Yeah, if it just hadn’t been, the kids were, “When are you going to come back?” Carolyn didn’t like it there; she didn’t like the weather.

06-00:58:40 Cummins: Well, you miss it obviously.

06-00:58:42 Maggard: I miss the competing. I miss the trying to build something.

06-00:58:55 Cummins: The kids.

06-00:58:56 Maggard: The kids, absolutely. And when I went to Houston and looked around, I said to myself, “There’s just no way that this place ought to be 0 and 11 in football, there’s no way.” And I said, “I know that we can—I’m going to do this, I’m going to do this because I know that something’s really wrong here, it’s pathetic.” And that’s the part I enjoyed, probably the most, but you had your difficulties along the way too, of changing the culture and all.

But I was thinking about this whole business of cutting sports—

06-00:59:38 Cummins: Yeah, let’s get into that.

06-00:59:38 Maggard: And I guess—and I’m not that close to the Cal situation, so I don’t know all of the nuances. From the outside and hearing from some of the coaches and former athletes and some of the alums too, I have to believe that the administration, both from the University and the Athletic Department, simply had lost touch with coaches, athletes, alumni, and the faculty. Now, I say that because it seemed like in reading all the articles that this was a surprise to a lot of people. That the Athletic Department had been running such a big deficit for a long period of time, had accumulated this, and nothing had been done. And I think about this, you know every year at Houston, for example, they have a board of regents. It’s a small university, they have four campuses, but it’s a small university—I had to give a report every year on the financial part status of the Athletic Department. And I told you that I had this advisory group of faculty, and we met at least once a month, and everything was laid out for them. Now, the reason I did that, I didn’t want to get whipsawed by— because we were using university money too. But it was known, this is what we are going to do, it’s not state money, it’s from parking and blah, blah, blah.

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So I wondered how this could have happened. And then looking back on it with people like Mike Heyman, et al, that—I mean, this wouldn’t have been tolerated. And I think that you can get into a situation in the Athletic Department where you can say, well if we have x number of dollars, if we spend this we can do a lot better in this sport, so let’s spend it. And if nobody’s calling you on it, and nobody’s saying we don’t want you to do this, or you can’t do this, or you can’t afford to do this—so it obviously was something that was not well known, which is a surprise in some ways, and that would seem to me to be from the Chancellor’s Office.

06-01:02:17 Cummins: You mean that they deliberately didn’t want to make it known?

06-01:02:20 Maggard: They didn’t want to make it known, I guess, or they didn’t know.

06-01:02:25 Cummins: Well, that was certainly the case up until I got Athletics, 2004, because Bob Berdahl, the Chancellor, was saying, “We have to get this under control.” And I said, ‘You’re not going to be able to get this under control if you and the AD and maybe one vice chancellor are making these decisions and nobody else knows about it. The amounts of money are so large now, in terms of what the subsidy is, that this has to shared.” And he said, “Fine.” And that was Bob Birgeneau too, because Berdahl left right then, and Bob Birgeneau came in and said yeah. That was the first time, 2004, that the faculty saw the numbers. Steve Gladstone at that point in time was leaving, and Sandy Barbour was coming in, and from what I have been told—and I’m going to go back and confirm it—Steve said that he did have meetings with certain donors and said this is what the story is, because we went through that whole thing.

06-01:03:33 Maggard: I would guess he would have, but I guess it would be people like Gary Rogers and some of those people. Now, their attitude is spend it—we’ve got to get the sport to the top.

06-01:03:44 Cummins: That’s right, and it’s worth the money to do it.

06-01:03:47 Maggard: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

06-01:03:48 Cummins: I have to confirm this, but Bob Birgeneau told me—this would have been December of 2009 and this was in a private conversation—that they were going to have to cut sports, and they were going to do it. March is when he set up, and what I understood was that the decision was going to be announced in March, that it was fairer to the athletes to do it for all the obvious recruiting reasons and everything else. And then, instead of making the decision, that’s when they set up this committee of donors, alumni, and faculty—the

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Chancellor’s Advisory Committee. And I thought at that point in time, he’s going to change his mind, he’s not going to cut then, because they had lost that window. What I had been told after that was, no, actually he didn’t change his mind vis-à-vis cutting sports but he had to bring these key people in and educate them about why this had to be done. And so that delayed the decision. That’s my recollection. Certainly that’s what people told me, and that’s what he told me vis-à-vis when he was going to cut the sports, which was back in December. Then they announce it in September, which is a really tough time to be announcing. That always puzzled me because even when we went through this in 2004 to 2006 to try and get this under control, there were analyses done about sports that could be cut, et cetera.

06-01:05:57 Maggard: There were?

06-01:05:57 Cummins: Yes, and baseball had been on the list since—

06-01:06:03 Maggard: That’s surprising. Why was that the case?

06-01:06:05 Cummins: Because of the amount of money that was lost. It was about a million a year, and the analysis of that was done in ’99 where they looked sport by sport. This was a report that Ron Coley did, and baseball was at the top of the list. A million bucks every year, and so that was an obvious target. So in a way, from what I was told anyway, Gladstone had had conversations with certain donors, certainly the Development Office, when I had Athletics, and they didn’t even want to have those conversations. They said it’s not worth it, and they made the decision we’re not going to do it, because we save $4 million—it’s not worth it. And then in 2009, if the scenario I laid out is correct, then the Development Office still had not made contact with donors to say this is what we’re facing. I just find that hard to believe, but it seems to be the reality. I don’t know, I have to confirm it, but I don’t understand.

And then there’s the other issue where the student athletes who were affected by the cuts when the sports that would be cut were announced said, “We weren’t involved in the decision-making process. Nobody talked to us about it,” et cetera. On the other hand, there’s this great reluctance on the part of coaches and the AD to say, If we start mentioning sports then it’s going to have a big negative impact whether we do it or not, so you’re in this Catch- 22.”

06-01:07:48 Maggard: Right, no, it’s a hard one. I reflected back on when we cut wrestling. Bill Martell was in the Physical Education Department; he got his money from the Physical Education Department.

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06-01:08:01 Cummins: Oh, interesting.

06-01:08:01 Maggard: So it wasn’t cutting him out. And this was like a two-year process of kids coming in and complaining about him, plus the fact that we didn’t have anybody to wrestle, plus the fact that Bill was more interested in AAU wrestling. He had gotten involved with the Big C Athletic Club out here, and it was much more club wrestling that he was more interested in than college. And Bill knew very well, and I told him—and I’ve always done this—when kids come in and complain to me I tell the coach and I tell the kids, “You understand, I’m going to tell the coach about this.” But we had a lot of complaints about Bill, and then there was nobody to wrestle, plus the fact that nobody lost their job. Nobody lost their job, and it really became one of those things of— The only guy that made any noise at all—and that was because of Pete Cutino and Bill Martell knowing Dan [Daniel E.] Boatwright, and they went to him. He was the only guy. But alumni or whatever, nobody said anything. There was no interest in wrestling.

Now golf, I never did cut golf. With golf the big issue was we want more funding. We want more funding. And this was a thing that, as I told you, and this is where I really had a problem with Bob Kerley on this, because Bob was always the guy about money. You’ve got—

06-01:09:40 Cummins: Keep it under control.

06-01:09:41 Maggard: —to make sure to take care of the money. And yet at the same time he was going out and telling these guys, alums like Frank Brunk, some of the others, that yes, we should have a golf program and we’re going to do everything we can to have a golf program. Now volleyball, I remember this—we started volleyball and we did it, the Ricksons came to me and pushed real hard and said, “The money will come.” I said, “I’ll tell you what,”—and I think it was a year or two that we kept them, I said, “If we don’t have the money we’re not going to keep it.” So we didn’t.

Now here was my attitude about every sport from then on. When somebody would come to me and say, “We want to start this sport,” I’d say, “That’s fine. You bring to me four years of scholarship money, four years of scholarship money, travel money, and coaches’ salary and we’ll start it, we’ll do it. Otherwise we won’t do it.” Because, I said, if I’m going to start a sport and then not be able to do it as we move along—so it’s like this. And this is the reason that I pushed on endowments so hard, John, and I told all these guys, and they didn’t like to hear it, but I told them, “This sport is going to disappear. I’m telling you that this sport is going to disappear. If you want it here after you and I are gone then we better do something to try to endow these sports so that they can make it and still be around.” And was that

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popular with everybody? No, but we got it going, we got it started and we were quite a ways along the way when I left.

See, Miami was the same way, John. Do you know that Miami did not have one endowment when I came there? Not one. I started the first one. There was a football coach who was loved by everybody, an assistant, and he was around every day, after he retired he was around every day. Everybody loved the guy, and so I said, “You know what, let’s start an endowment program for Walt Kichefski. I’ll give the first $5,000.” And so we got it started, we got it going, and that was the first one. Now a lot of these places—Miami way back was living hand-to-mouth. Until they started really winning, they were living hand-to-mouth. And they invested a lot in that program until they really got it going. And then it was—you know, it was a big change. I added $6 million. Tad Foote was not as much for this as I was, and I told him, “Tad, you know what you need in reserve? One year of operation money, whatever the budget is now, you need one year of that in reserve.” “Oh, I don’t think we need to have that.” I said, “That is the way I think it should be done. I really do, because bad times can hit.”

And I think the other part of it here at Cal is that I think that probably Sandy, and maybe a number of other people, felt that Jeff was going to hit the big one and that all the financial woes would be over. Now, I know they’re getting a new television contract, and they think that’s going to be of help. And I’m sure it will be of help. But I think that—

06-01:13:51 Cummins: But it’s not the permanent solution.

06-01:13:52 Maggard: I don’t think it is, and I think it was one of those things of, again, you roll the dice and say we’re going to really go for it, and this guy is going to bring us out of it. And you pay him big bucks, and we’re going to be in a BCS Bowl, we’re going to have all this money, and we’re going to be able to pay it back. I don’t know. And every year you think, well, maybe this is the year that it happens, maybe this is the year it happens. But so far it hasn’t.

06-01:14:27 Cummins: It’s interesting, in thinking back now, because it was last summer when we started these interviews, and I’ve read a lot, talked to a lot of people, interviewed a lot of people. The one thing that is really clear is how important the culture of these individual institutions is, and the impact it has. We talked about that in the first interviews that we did.

3-01:15:03 Maggard: Right.

06-01:15:05 Cummins: And the ending of the Pacific Coast Conference and then Clark Kerr’s views—maybe we shouldn’t be in Division I—all the difficulties with race

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issues in the late sixties with Rene Herrerias, Pete Newell, et cetera. And then you come in, and your comments about Mac [Laetsch] and Mike Heyman— and I have to put myself in that group. I wasn’t even conscious of it at that point in time. I didn’t have responsibility for it, but I was there. This view that, as you put it, somehow we have to make sure that Athletics understands that they’re not ruling the roost around here. And so, yeah, I think that’s right. And that has a big impact on a program over the long haul. What do you think about that?

06-01:16:19 Maggard: I agree with you, and I think that what everybody looks for, what an athletic director looks for, is a president and chancellor that says we want to have a real strong program, but you’re going to have to do it right. And here are the parameters; here is what it’s all about. And then it becomes one of those things of who are you competing with, what conference have you aligned yourself with? Now, [U] SC and UCLA have been down, and this I thought was Cal’s opportunity to really—[making a shooting sound] SC’s going to be crippled for a while.

06-01:17:04 Cummins: Yes, they are.

06-01:17:05 Maggard: And UCLA is not very good, in football at least. UCLA is moaning and groaning about all of the money that Cal spends. They say, “My gosh, Cal is spending all this money, and we can’t do this, and we can’t get people in and Cal”—you know it’s always that kind of stuff.

06-01:17:27 Cummins: Yes.

06-01:17:28 Maggard: So they’ve been down, and I kind of thought that Cal would take advantage of that and be—. And so I think that you kind of have to have a chancellor or a president that looks at these things, knows what’s going on and what’s the value of it, what’s the value to the kids, what’s the value to the alumni, to the institution, and this is the way we’re going to compete. I think that’s important. If you’re going to schedule Oklahoma and Alabama, and all of that, you’ve got to know what you’re doing. You have to know what you’re doing, because all that does is frustrate the kids and the coaches, and everybody else, the alumni, because it’s—you’re not competitive. If you’re going to be in the Pac-10 or Pac-12— And I would I have preferred it to be another way with Mike Heyman. But, the thing I’ll say, and I said it before, is that Mike Heyman was genuine.

06-01:18:41 Cummins: Yeah, and you knew where he was.

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06-01:18:42 Maggard: In terms of what he said and the whole thing, and I never did think Tien was. I thought Tien was really a show horse, not a work horse. You know, I might not agree with everything that Mike wanted to do, but at least I knew that Mike wasn’t a phony. And so from that standpoint I had respect for him. And I always felt that Mike, “Mike you’d be a great president at Dartmouth or Yale or Harvard,” or wherever. “You’d be perfect.” He’d be perfect for it.

06-01:19:19 Cummins: Interesting.

06-01:19:20 Maggard: John, I think it’s a lot of different things. It’s tricky.

06-01:19:29 Cummins: It is tricky.

06-01:19:29 Maggard: It’s tricky, and the other part of it is that sometimes something that you do today has a long-lasting impact on what the future might be.

06-01:19:41 Cummins: No question. I don’t know this, but I think that having that culture as we just described it, you described it, and then to have a shift—it was a very significant shift of saying, “Okay, we’re going to invest,” but, at the same time this effort to say well we’ve got to get this budget under control. So you’re saying two different things, and then the money is still going like this—it keeps going up, up, up. And so you’re left with this ambivalence.

06-01:20:22 Maggard: It’s a real dichotomy; it really is.

06-01:20:24 Cummins: Absolutely.

06-01:20:26 Maggard: No, it’s a tough one. I don’t know that you have many places within the university—the university always wants biology to be the best, you want the research and all these kinds of things, and you need chairs for this and this to keep the stature of the university. So, take a look at Ohio State, what’s happening right now at Ohio State. And here’s a guy, [E.] Gordon Gee, who makes that stupid comment, and now he looks even more stupid.

06-01:20:59 Cummins: And that comment, say what it was, just for the tape.

06-01:21:02 Maggard: “I have great respect for . I just hope he doesn’t fire me. He’s not going to lose his job. I’m just afraid he might dismiss me.” Well, that is the stupidest thing to say in the world. I told you, I’ve had some dealings with

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Gordon, and I think Gordon is—he’s a chameleon, I mean he really is. Now, he must be a great fundraiser. I don’t know.

06-01:21:36 Cummins: In order to stay there?

06-01:21:37 Maggard: Well yeah, everybody says he’s raising a lot of money and this and that, and he’s been at some very prestigious places.

06-01:21:44 Cummins: Vanderbilt.

06-01:21:45 Maggard: Yeah, Vanderbilt, Brown, and back to Ohio State.

06-01:21:49 Cummins: And now, at least the news reports are saying that he may go over this. There’s a lot of pressure on the AD and on the president now as a result of the recent violations.

06-01:22:02 Maggard: Yeah, I wonder if that’s going to happen. I think if the Board of Regents didn’t get all over him for, “Gordon, if you felt way that’s one thing, but to say it to the public and to the nation? That’s idiotic. You’re a smart guy. How could you be so dumb to say something like that?” I don’t know. That’s the thing that you get caught in. And see, here’s the other thing, this bad thing with him. Gordon is one of those guys that’s a micromanager. And if you’re a micromanager, and you don’t know any of this, then it really puts you in a bad situation. He’s the same guy that did away with the AD at Vanderbilt because he was going to run this thing and the whole bit. Colorado—he was doing the same thing. So when you have something like this it really becomes, “Well, you know, I’ve let this guy do it.” “Well, Gordon you’re pretty involved in all this. You tell us that you know everything that’s going on in this department, and you didn’t know this?” That’s where you get slammed, and it’s a hard one. It’s a hard one.

And I’ll tell you John, it is hard to control a culture like that, it is really difficult. If you have alums on the outside who really work at doing this, and want to do it, and feel it should be done, it’s a tough, tough thing to control. And this is one of the reasons that I always had— Bobby Knight is a personality that is difficult to understand, but Bobby Knight would not allow alums around his kids. “Stay away from the kids. I don’t want you involved with them at all,” or anything. That is the one thing about him; he was absolutely straight. And I would say that if Booby Knight cheated, it would be unknowingly. He would not cheat. I know that about him. And I think it frustrated him because basketball is so corrupt, men’s basketball, and I think it got to a point to where he wasn’t getting a lot of the kids that he needed to get.

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06-01:24:34 Cummins: But here again you have this issue where there is so much money involved, whether it’s the TV contracts, or the March Madness or the Bowl games, or whatever it is. And these kids see it, they see how much money—

06-01:24:53 Maggard: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

06-01:24:54 Cummins: And so this argument about paying students—there’s some legitimacy to that in terms of them. If you think from their mind-set, and so then say, “God, I sold a ring and so you’re going to kill me for...” That’s the—

06-01:25:12 Maggard: And see, the other part of it, John, it’s entitlement. The way we recruit these kids, these guys walk on water. This one kid—I don’t know if I told you this story—but this kid in Texas that was being recruited by Mack Brown, and at Oklahoma. He was keeping this journal, and it was going into the paper—I think it was USA Today. And so he’s at Mack Brown’s house, and he goes in the bathroom, and there’s a big-screen TV in there, and there are big-screen TVs all over the place. And so he says, “Mack asked me,” he says, “Whose house is nicer? Mine or Bob Stoops’s?” [laughs] So you know, you read that, and you say, “We’re all nuts, we’re all total wackos. I mean to do something like that?” That’s it, but see, that’s the mind-set.

When you get into a recruiting battle at Texas, at Oklahoma, if there’s money that’s exchanged it may be buried. In fact one of the NCAA investigators told me when they were investigating Las Vegas, they said, “Dave, these kids who work at the casinos parking cars, and a guy gives a hundred dollar tip. So what. That’s business, that’s the way we do business.” He said, “You can’t trace it, you can’t do anything about it. They’ve got a slot machine really, that kids parking cars—one of the alums gets in a—‘Oh, you brought my car, slips [him] a hundred dollar bill. I just won some big money, so hey, good deal.’”

06-01:27:04 Cummins: And yet you can’t—I found this out when I had Athletics that, because you try and educate the alums who are going to the bowl games about what they can and can’t do vis-à-vis special benefits. And if a player, say had an exam, and so he was arriving late and you happened to be at the airport, and you said, “Do you need a ride?” Can’t do it. [That would be] a violation. And so the craziness.

06-01:27:30 Maggard: Oh, it is. Some of the rules are just insane, and they’re so petty. And then you’ve got the big stuff of—you get a guy like Derrick Rose who takes the SAT three times in Chicago, doesn’t make it. He takes it in Detroit, and it goes way up.

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06-01:27:53 Cummins: It’s amazing. Do you want to say anything else about cutting sports? And what’s your view on the reinstatement of them?

06-01:28:01 Maggard: Well, I felt that they would be reinstated, and I felt that just based upon calls that I got from alums and so on. Regardless of the fact that baseball spends $1 million, I didn’t think they’d ever get by with not reinstating baseball. I think even the people that may not give money to it, or whatever—on the outside it was kind of like—you’ve got to be kidding me, cutting baseball? Every school in the Pac-10 has baseball, the Pac-12. I didn’t think they could ever do that, and I didn’t think they could really get by with really banging rugby very much. Now, because those are the high-visibility sports, they were getting quite a bit of alumni support.

And like I said, Don Bowden, he goes to all of the Big C meetings and all that. And I told him way back, “Don, there’s no way. They’re going to reinstate those programs. They just can’t get away with it.” The reason is, one—they didn’t do enough work with letting people know that this is what we’re thinking about doing. And they got themselves in a huge jam by going way over the budget, and then it became a desperate thing: “We’ve got to do it now.” And so I said, “It’s hindsight and second-guessing, but you have to look at [the fact that] the management was not very good and they couldn’t anticipate [that] we’re getting ourselves in a jam by having all these sports.” And we’re spending all this money on this, and this, and this. You might be making the coaches happy at the time, but you’re going to tick them off and they’re going to be— You know a guy like Jack Clark could do a lot of damage to you. And it’s only—it’s a good thing that he is the person he is. He’s a class guy. And it’s like he told me, he says, “Dave, I can’t believe it, Sandy is so insecure. You come to that Bear Backer luncheon. Nobody’s seen you in years. She won’t even mention it, she won’t even come around.” I said, “Jack, no big deal.” He said, “She is so jealous and so insecure.” Which I think she is, but anyhow—it’s neither here nor there.

I thought, based on what Jack had done and who he was, it was more than just a few alums saying, “Why are you doing this?” Baseball, it’s a pretty good baseball team this year, pretty good. The other sports, they’ll have their people who are going to push for them, but you don’t have the tradition, and you don’t have the national kind of visibility. And so I felt all along that once they started talking about we might reinstate it—I thought, “Hey it’s done, it’s absolutely done.” And I think it was again—and this is all hindsight, John, because it’s hard to do, it’s hard to know, but none of this was anticipated. There wasn’t enough anticipation about what we’re spending. We’re spending too much money, and at some point they’re going to call us on this, and they’re going to—what happens when somebody says, “Hey, you guys can’t spend this much money.” Now the coaches are really ticked at you, and the kids are ticked off. And the alums of that sport, they get angry.

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And I think the other part of it is that Sandy played it really close to the vest in terms of what she was going to do. Now, I’ll tell you one thing she was really smart about—she was able to do this—she blamed more of it on the Chancellor than— I think that there are people that are mad at her, but I think there are more people that got mad at the Chancellor. And so I think that they’re happy with what he did, but I think they look at him as being a wishy- washy kind of guy. Well, the next time a decision comes up like this we’re going to pound him and see if we can get him to change it. That’s what happens, and in some cases you have to give in, John.

06-01:32:46 Cummins: Well, here would be another way to look at this, okay? If you’re the Chancellor—just tell me what you think of this. And I haven’t talked to him about it, but ever since he walked in the door, which was 2004, he knew he had a problem with Athletics.

06-01:33:04 Maggard: Okay.

06-01:33:05 Cummins: There was no question about it. It was all laid out for him. I did it. Here’s the picture.

06-01:33:09 Maggard: Okay, so he knew.

06-01:33:11 Cummins: Yeah. There was a decision made that, as a result of setting up this University Athletics Board, they’re going to bring this subsidy down, and it starts coming down. And whatever year it was, 2007-2008, it was coming down from what had been $12 [million] or $13 [million] a year down to $7 [million]. That’s real progress, okay?

06-01:33:32 Maggard: Yeah, absolutely.

06-01:33:33 Cummins: And then you’ve got Nathan Brostrom, who took over Athletics when he— well, I was doing it temporarily, then he came in as the Administrative Vice Chancellor, and takes it over. And he’s asking—and he’s a former athlete too—he’s asking for monthly reports about, “Make sure you let me know.” Meanwhile this financial crisis is occurring at exactly the same time.

06-01:33:58 Maggard: With the University.

06-01:33:59 Cummins: With the University, the state, everything, and so he’s getting monthly reports saying, “Everything is good, everything is good.” In March of, it would have been 2009, all of a sudden these monthly reports indicate, instead of it coming

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down it jumps. It’s projected to be back up at $13 million, and he says, “You’ve got to be kidding me. What the hell’s going on here?” The Chancellor and Nathan—and I don’t know how much Sandy knew, but she certainly should have known. Okay? Without any question, if you’re the AD and you’ve got these problems, you can’t turn this over to an associate AD and say—hey.

06-01:34:44 Maggard: No, that’s on you.

06-01:34:45 Cummins: Exactly, that’s on you, and so they were really upset about that because the whole thing had reversed. And then you have these faculty members, they start asking the questions, which, as you say, is totally understandable. Of course they’re going to do that. And so you’re sitting there as the Chancellor and you think, “Holy God, what am I going to do with this?” And so, he knows full well—he’s cutting every other unit, every one. There’s no exception. There’s also a policy that says no unit can run a deficit on this campus. If you do there has to be a plan to eradicate it.

06-01:35:33 Maggard: Are you talking about academically?

06-01:35:34 Cummins: Every unit.

06-01:35:35 Maggard: Every unit, okay, I got you.

06-01:35:35 Cummins: Every unit. It doesn’t make any difference what it is—Police Department, everything, Biology, whatever it happens to be. Everybody, it’s a policy, you can’t do this.

06-01:35:43 Maggard: Okay.

06-01:35:44 Cummins: And so here for years they’ve making this exception for Athletics, Athletics, Athletics. And they put out these numbers, and they’re huge. From 1991 to 2009 it was $170 million that had been going into Athletics as a subsidy. It’s a big, big amount of money. Plus you’ve got the stadium, and you’ve got the Student-Athlete High Performance Center $500 million capital project that is also very worrisome. And the faculty are upset.

06-01:36:17 Maggard: How is that going?

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06-01:36:19 Cummins: I don’t know. I don’t know, really. They say different things, and I’m just not sure. I haven’t gotten to the point where I really understand that yet—but I will.

So anyway, you’re sitting there as the Chancellor and you think, “I can’t allow, it can’t keep going—the only way that we are going to get this back under control to some degree is to reduce sports. We have too many, it’s too big a program, we just can’t do this.” And so he makes that decision. How much he knew about the numbers and about Title IX implications and all of that, I don’t know, because Title IX certainly played a role here. So you’re sitting there, and you’re thinking, “Okay, I’ve got to do this, I’ve set up a committee, I’ve informed these people, the donors, et cetera. I’m going to do it. I make the decision—okay, we’re going to cut these sports.” If these sports are to be restored—Sandy says it’s going to be $100 million that would endow all of these sports. It’s highly unlikely that that will happen, et cetera. And then months go by and they compromise on that number. Essentially they raise maybe $20 [million] or so. In a nutshell, they restore these sports. So if you’re sitting there as the Chancellor, you know you’ve got the stadium out here—you‘re real worried about that. You don’t want to alienate a whole bunch of donors, especially if they come to you, like a Stu Gordon, and he says, “Okay, I have $9 million.” Well, you’re not going to turn that down—I mean just politically. So that would be my take, sitting there as—

06-01:38:05 Maggard: I would have to agree with you on that, John. I think he’s got an enormous problem, and I think he has someone in Sandy who plays it very close to the vest. And probably—I don’t think Sandy is going to come and say “Hey, I’m concerned about this. I want you to know about it because I don’t want to blindside you on this kind of thing.” I think it’s one of those things more like—and I think everybody knows that Sandy’s going to get every break in the world. For all kinds of reasons, she’s going to have a very long leash. And so I think it’s probably one of those things of instead of going to the Chancellor or Vice Chancellor or whomever and saying, “Hey look, we got this problem. I want to make sure that you know about it and that we develop a plan to deal with it. It may not be popular, so we’re going have to do this, and this, and this, but we’re going to have to start right now, like right now.”

06-01:39:22 Cummins: Right.

06-01:39:22 Maggard: Now, that’s like when I got the job as Athletic Director at Houston. Chet Gladchuk was there, and the place was in a mess. He got the job at Navy, he’s still at Navy. He called me right after I got there, because I knew him well. He was the AD at Boston when I was at Miami, and he said, “Dave, you just have to spend the money. You just have to do it. It’s one of those situations that you’re going to have to, and you just ignore what everybody says.” All right

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now, I go to Art Smith, who’s the President, and I said, “Art, tell me about this.” He said, “That’s garbage.” [laughs] So he says, “Who told you that?” And I said, “Chet.” “Yeah, okay, no, no. Dave, no, that just can’t happen.”

We had issues where we had to take a chance. When I fired the football coach and the basketball coach he said, “Dave I don’t think we can afford to fire the basketball coach right now.” And I said, “Art, have you seen our attendance? Have you seen our academics? I don’t think we can afford not to fire him. I think we have to.” And he said, “Okay, all right, go ahead.” And so you get in to those kinds of situations, and you may have to make some moves. But in terms of kind of long term—what are you going to do, how are you going to do this—you’ve got to say, “Well, we’re going to get a huge television contract, we’re going to get this, and this, and this. I want you to make sure that you know what my assumptions are.”

06-01:41:17 Cummins: Yes.

06-01:41:17 Maggard: “And if somebody has a problem with my assumptions then let me know so I can get my butt in gear and get this thing under control.” A lot of the coaches are going to get angry along with the athletes, but we need to do it. We need to face up to it. Now, these are tough times John, these are really tough times.

06-01:41:38 Cummins: Really hard.

06-01:41:39 Maggard: The economy is really in the tank, and so you have a bunch of things hit at the same time. So that was unfortunate.

06-01:41:48 Cummins: Yes.

06-01:41:49 Maggard: That’s the unfortunate part about it. But at the same time—see, the faculty is not going to say, “We’ll take the bump and nobody else.”

06-01:42:00 Cummins: Well, it’s indefensible.

06-01:42:02 Maggard: Exactly, and so they may say, “Okay, fine. You’re going to whack me, but now you’re giving all this money to Athletics? I don’t care if it comes from parking or whatever—I need test tubes,” or I need whatever.

06-01:42:12 Cummins: Yes, and the Chancellor, that’s why I say he was caught. It was the perfect storm. Which raises another question. When you consider the entire kind of intercollegiate athletic enterprise and where it’s headed—which we’ve talked

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about—is that what it takes to get some kind of reform? To get this under control? I don’t know.

06-01:42:39 Maggard: Well, here I think is one of the big problems, John. I think that the Division I- A institutions—so many of them are just making it. They’re making it, they’re not dipping in—it’s like Texas who has given a million bucks to the University and all that kind of stuff, so they’re making it. They may have a bond or a debt deal on their facilities, so they’ve got this plan to pay it off. But there are very few places around the country now that are making it. And the reason is that all the expenses have gone crazy. When you start paying coaches, I mean a run-of-the-mill coach in football today is near $2 million. And you’ve got a guy like Mack Brown making $5 [million] and you’ve got LSU, Oklahoma, places like that—they’re going to pay top dollar. Alabama doesn’t want Auburn to beat them. And so if it takes $5 million to pay our coach, that’s fine, we’ll do it. We’re still making it. The faculty may moan and groan a little bit, but this Alabama, you guys go over and do your thing. It’s not the same kind of institution. And that’s what you were talking about before. What’s the culture of your university and what do you want?

Now Mike would never, ever allow me to do a huge thing for a coach. I mean, there’s no way. I’m not going to do that with the faculty, so on and so forth. But now, that’s all changed.

06-01:44:25 Cummins: Yes, it has.

06-01:44:25 Maggard: And John, you know how it has changed—and this is one of those things that I would be really interested to see somebody write something about this—about what has happened since presidents and chancellors have taken over the NCAA.

06-01:44:43 Cummins: Yes, it’s a very good point. It’s a point you talk about. There’s this historian, you may know him, Ronald Smith, who is at Penn State. He’s a historian on intercollegiate athletics, and he wrote this book, Pay for Play, interesting book. Same thing. He says exactly what you’re talking about. He really goes after the Knight Commission and says—

06-01:45:14 Maggard: Oh, that’s been a toothless tiger. [laughs]

06-01:45:17 Cummins: And he says the Knight Commission says it’s really the presidents and the boards that have to get control of intercollegiate athletics. And he says that’s just not going to do it. The presidents and boards are too conflicted, and the history of intercollegiate athletics has demonstrated that.

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06-01:45:36 Maggard: See, one of the problems is, as the presidents and chancellors have become more involved, they’ve gotten more heat. They now get the heat. And it’s like the guy Gordon Gee, see? He’s a guy that when he was at Vanderbilt and his baseball coach went someplace to look at another job, well, Gordon was at the airport and went out on the tarmac and met the guy and said, “I’ve got a new contract for you.” This is a baseball coach at Vanderbilt, all right? This is good old Gordon Gee. This is what he did. You walk into the basketball offices at Vanderbilt—it’s like Exxon. They’re incredible! I’ve been there. I’ve walked through them. I said, “Oh my gosh! This is Vanderbilt!”

It’s remarkable how the presidents and chancellors said we’ve got to get a hold of this, we’ve got to start this—and the presidents and the chancellors now run the NCAA. They really do. No more convention, no more single vote, and nothing has improved. As a matter of fact, John, I’d say it’s gotten worse because they now—before when they were a little removed from it they didn’t get as much heat. This guy that was at Houston for a while—he’s now at Auburn—Jay Gogue, who was the president at Houston for almost three years. You know what his comment is? “I don’t hire the football coach. I hire and fire athletic directors.” And when all this stuff, all this brouhaha started at Auburn—because I talk to him once in a while on the phone, we’re pretty good friends—he said, “Dave, I haven’t gotten that many calls.” I just tell them, “You may want to give the athletic director a call.” So that’s kind of it. He’s decided that, hey, I’ve got enough to do without everybody calling me and thinking that I’m calling the shots for Athletics. If the guy is not doing the job the right way, I’m going to fire him. And so I’ll take that heat, but I’m not going to take the heat for running the whole program and all. I’m going to look at the people responsible, and then I’ll take whatever action I need to take with them.

Now, I think Gordon Gee is—I think that’s one of the stupidest things of the decade, what he did. [laughing] I don’t think he realizes what a disservice he did to intercollegiate athletics. I don’t think he realizes it, and I’d be shocked if the Board of Regents—

06-01:48:45 Cummins: Keeps him.

06-01:48:45 Maggard: If it weren’t Ohio State, it would be a different deal. The Board of Regents would just say, “Hey, you know what? You are out of here.” Indiana pushed Rick Greenspan out because Kelvin Sampson was cheating.

06-01:49:02 Cummins: Yeah, and blamed him.

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06-01:49:03 Maggard: And said, “You’re the head of it.” Now the NCAA banged Kelvin. Rick is now at Rice, doing well. I saw him when I went back for the Final Four, and I still talk to him a lot. Rick’s a good guy. He does a good job; he’s an honest guy, straight, the whole bit. But that was one of those things where the President just came in and said, “Hey, you know what? You’re the head of this thing. You hired the guy, didn’t you?”

06-01:49:29 Cummins: And he couldn’t say that it was the President that ordered him to do it.

06-01:49:32 Maggard: He said, “Dave, what was I going to say?” I said, “No, you had to do what you did right?” And so he says, the guy says, “Well, by December you need to find another job. You’re too much of a lightning rod.” That was it, so anyhow. It’s interesting.

06-01:49:50 Cummins: Okay, I’ve got to stop. And I think we’re probably going to have to continue this a little bit because your knowledge in this area is—

06-01:50:01 Maggard: I still stay up with it pretty good. I still read all the stuff on the Net, and some of the coaches around the country still call me, and athletic directors. These ADs were meeting in Conference USA down in Sandestin not long ago, and they were out drinking one night and they all called me. We had a fun conversation.

06-01:50:34 Cummins: Oh, did they? They’re smart.

[End of Interview]