University of Illinois at Springfield

Norris L Brookens Library

Archives/Special Collections

J.R. Fitzpatrick Memoir

F582. Fitzpatrick, J.R. (1895-1982) Interview and memoir 5 tapes, 450 mins., 83 pp.

Fitzpatrick, Springfield resident and businessman, recalls his neighborhood, lumber business, sponsorship of numerous athletic teams, effects of the Depression, involvement with the publication The Citizens Tribune, local political campaigns, violence during the mine wars, service on the Illinois Boxing Commission and Golden Gloves, and sponsorship of semi-professional softball including the Fitzpatrick Lumberjacks. He recalls a softball game played between the Lumberjacks and Joe Louis's team (the Brown Bombers) and the sponsorship of the Springfield Sallees (a professional women's baseball team that played during WWII). He also discusses Springfield in the 1920's and 1930's, the Lincoln Home property, racism and the 1908 race riot, the Ku Klux Klan in Springfield, prejudice against Catholics, construction of defense homes during WWII, automobile races at the state fair grounds, and the publication of Main Street.

Interview by Richard Shereikis, 1980 OPEN See collateral file: Interviewer's notes, article about Fitzpatrick, photographs his Lumber Company, a baseball team, employees, newspapermen William Menghini and Jim McCloskey, boxer Joe Louis, race driver A.J. Foyt.

Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407

© 1980, University of Illinois Board of Trustees Preface

This manuscript is the product of tape recorded interviews conducted by Richard Shereikis for the Oral History Office during November, 1980. Linda S. Jett transcribed the tapes and Richard Shereikis edited the transcript. Mr. Fitzpatrick reviewed the transcript.

J. R. "Bud" Fitzpatrick was born in Springfield, Illinois on September 25, 1895, and his Lived there ever since. After working for several years for the Peter Vredenburgh Lumber Company and serving in World War I, Mr. Fitzpatrick started his own lumber business in the early twenties, at which time he also first sponsored a baseball team, the Fitzpatrick Lumberjacks, the first of many semi-professional and amateur athletic teams that he sponsored over the years.

In 1930, while still in the lumber business, Fitzpatrick began publishing The Citizens Tribune, a weekly newspaper which ran for twenty years, and which gave Fitzpatrick a significant voice in local political campaigns. During this period, Fitzpatrick served several years as a member of the Illinois Boxing Commission and continued his sponsorship of athletic teams, including the Springfield Sallees, a professional women's team which played in a league that functioned briefly during World War I1 with aid and encouragement of P. K. Wrigley. He was also instrumental in reviving auto racing at the fairgrounds and in bringing minor league baseball to the city in the early fifties.

Mr. Fitzpatrick continues to operate a real estate business while also publishing Main Street, a four-page weekly newspaper which has over 700 subscribers.

Richard Shereikis, the interviewer, is Associate Professor of Literature at Sangamon State University, He holds the B.A. degree in English from Northern Illinois University, the M.A. in English from the University of Chicago, and the PhD. in English from the University of Colorado.

Readers of the oral history memoir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and editor sought to preserve the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sangamon State University is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.

The manuscript may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, without permission in writing from the Oral History Office, Sangamon State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62708.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Table of Contents

Birthplace and Earliest Memories of Springfield

Fitzpatrick's Lumber Business--The Twenties

Sponsor of Sports Teams

The Depress ion

A Weekly Newspaper: Citizens Tribune

Bill Menghini Leaves Newspaper

Office of Price Administration Lawsuit

End of the Newspaper

Colonel Copley's Adopted Children

John Hunter Feud

City Manager Campaign

The Springfield Sallees

Fred Saigh

Edmund Burke and the Shelton Gang

Miners' Union Battles

Scott Lucas

Golden Gloves and League Sponsorship

Joe Louis

The Boxing Commission

Jim Farley

Progressive Miners and UMW Turmoil

Jack Johnson and the Battle Royal

Springfield in the Twenties and Thirties

Lincoln Home Property

Telford and Howarth Mayoralty Campaign

The 1908 Race Riot

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick, November 7, 14, 21, 1980, Springfield, Illinois.

Richard Shereikis, Interviewer.

Q. This is an oral history interview with J. R. Bud Fitzpatrick conducted in his off ice on November 7, 1980. The interviewer is Richard Shereikis. Mr. Fitzpatrick, if you could start off with your earliest recollections of Springfield as you knew it as a youngster and your early family recollections and things like that.

A. Well, I was born in the city of Springfield east of the tracks. That's on East Jefferson Street and kind of a mixed neighborhood, poor people.

Q. Mixed racially?

A. Mixed racially also. There were Negroes at that time, Blacks now. There were Portuguese, there were Italians, there were Irish. The Irish kind of predominated because that was their main industry--the coal mines of Springfield was our first industry. Of course in the midst of a farming community and those are back in the days of the horse and buggy and the streetcar. Well, it was before the streetcar, I guess.

Q. What year was that?

A. I was born in 1895. September 25, 1895. That's in the other century. And it was in the era of the horse and buggies and the streetcars. And the main industry we had here was coal mines and the state capital--being the state capital.

Q. Was your father involved in either of those, the mines or the capital?

A. No, my father was a common laborer, worked for the streetcar company. Had a afe and six children. Family of eight. And that's when a nickel was;a nickel, And the main concern was to get enough to pay your rent and ik& enough food on the table.

Q. ~ehyou able to go to school or did you have to work from an early age?

A. I went to St. Mary's Grade School, graduated from there after finishing the eighth grade, and then I went to work. At the wages of five dollars a wqek fox the Peter Vredenbusgh Lumber Company which waa the leading lumber company in Springfield and owned by one of the richest families in dpringf ield. And I was messenger boy or of £ice boy. That's the only place I ever worked outside of being in the army in World War I a little while and after that I went back to Vredenburgh's and come down here at this place and started in business for myself.

Q. Now you got into the lumber business yourself, is that right?

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick Lumber Company about 1933

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick 2

A. Yes, all by myself. And on a shoe string and that shoe string wasn't too good, but luck was with me. Right on this same block here. This was all residential. I lived here in this block in most of my boyhood days. And the thriving industry around here then was the Wabash shops. Railroads were a big industry here because they had their shops like the Wabash I mentioned, the Illinois Central, the C & A--which is now Illinois Central Gulf--and the B & 0. And later on came the electric lines, the interurbans which was a big boom to the middle towns around here.

Q. When was that, the interurban's? I've heard of it.

A. That'd be about 1908. I think about 1908. And they had their connections with the little towns between here and Decatur and the little towns between here and St. Louis and Peoria.

Q. I remember reading in one of your papers about how all your starts in business were done at the worst times for business. Was that true of the lumber business? Could you talk about that? When that was and how you made it and what kind of luck it was you had? A. Well . . . Q. Or is that secret?

A. No, that's all right. That's all right. 1'm just trying to collect my thoughts. A recession followed World War I and the economy of the country changed. And I started as an office boy at Vredenburgh's when I was fourteen. That was in the year 1909. Then I was prodded on by some of my older friends, contractors that were customers there, to get more education. One fellow, Vern Crawford, said, "NOW Bud, you've got to get some more education. You got the education it's the one thing that they can't take away from you."

So I told Vredenburgh's that I was going to take off and quit and go to business college. They said, "Well, why don't you come down here and sweep out the floor at swen o'clock in the morning and you don't have to go to school until nine. Come back after four and then you can work on Saturday. "

My wages then dropped to two dollars and a half a week. I furnished my own bicycle and fixed my own punctures. Their secretary, Miss Schamweber, whose folks settled up in Saskatchewan on a land grant up there, $he was the stenographer, so she served notice that she was quitting. And they said, "Why can't you take her job?" I said, "I don't know anything about stenography or shorthand. " Said, "Well, you go to business college." I said, "Yea, but I'm taking up accounting and commercial law." Said, "Well, go ahead and try it." I did. Worked at that for two months and gave full time. Well I gave full time to that job after she left. And I worked there, and this was at their planing mill which was a special department. They employed about seventy men, manufacturing and everything in the way of mill work, doors and sash and everything else.

And along comes World War I. All my friends had gone to the Army. Most of them drafted. I kind of felt lonely. I didn't have to, I could J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R, Fitzpatrick 3 I claim exemption because I was the sole support at that time of my mother. All the others had left the household. So I joined and was sent to Peoria for a couple of months. Bradley, I called Bradley my alma aater. And there they distributed them all around the country, and I happened to land up in Fort Hancock, Augusta, Georgia.

I was finally assigned to the ordinance department. And I was called in one day to the captain's off ice. He said, "Now, you take shorthand?" I said, "No, I don't .I1 "Aren't you a stenographer?" I said, "No, I'm not." Looked at the paper and said, "Did you falsify your record?" I said, "Never did. Never had to." I said, "I think you 're confused, captain. I can type pretty fast on a typewriter. I'm just about as fast as the ordinary guy can dictate. I can type sixty words a minute." Said, "Okay." So I'm there. I become an important guy because I'm the listening post or the informer for everything that's going to go on with the different guys in the company. So I had a fine time.

And then the Armistice come along and I was discharged. And then I intended to take up law, which my uncle Eddie always wanted me to do. And I maintained ever since every family ought to have a lawyer and a doctor and then they know they're getting a square shot. So anyhow, they invited me to come back, at the mill and I did. By that time the whole damn organization had fallen apart and Reynolds Vredenburgh who was my immediate boss, the youngest one, I told him what was wrong. I said, "Little leaks will sink a big ship." [He said,] "So I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll sell you the mill. You don't have to have any money down, just give us ten percent discount and we'll supply the finances until you get on your own feet." He had to send it over to his older brother Tom who was really the brains of the deal. "Well ,'I he said, "instead of giving him anything why don't you just take his ideas and keep him on the payroll." Which he did. And they give me more authority.

After the war the automobiles changed from the open car to the showcase cars, the sedans, and the automobile industry was plagued with not having enough plate glass for their windshields. And there was a guy that used to work for them as a glazer. His name was Epperson, he in the meantime was in business for himself over in Indianapolis. And he come over and said, "~otan idea for you, Reynolds. You can make a lot of money. We ship the plate glass into Indianapolis and I'll cut it up and we'll sell it to the automobile companies, and all I'm interested in is getting so much for each windshield that I cut. You send Bud over to Indianapolis--1 know you don't trust me, but you do trust him. Have him come over there and you can make a lot of money."

At that t$w I'm making forty-five dollars a fneek. He [~eynolds]submits thatjto his older brother Tom. Tom says, ''There's only one thing that look$ good about this deal and that is the profit. Everything else looks terrible." I go over there and I lived the life of Riley. I could stay in any hotel I wanted to and they'd pay my way for coming back and forth on the weekends to see my girl,

The--recession started coming along then. And they made forty thousand dollars net. Forty thousand dollars net. The only overhead they had

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

was my expense caning back and forth. I thought it was time for me to ask for a raise. Never was I offered a vacation, never was I offered a raise unless I argued for it. Had a lot of arguments but I never lost any of them. So they reluctantly gave me a raise to fifty dollars a week. Still they made forty thousand dollars. No bonus or anything else. And I said, "Well, this is the end of the road. Because it's a closed corporation. My youth is passing and if I'm going to strike I've got to strike now.'' Even in spite of the recession that was coming.

I lived right in this here same block with my sister when mother died. And looking all over town for a place to go in business and my sister said, "Why don't you pick that lot back there next to the railroad track?" I went up to see Dr. Stericker, represented myself "as Jones" and I'm going to go "in the garage business" because I couldn't afford to let Vredenburgh's know what I was going to do because they were in, naturally, the elite that would have an in in every bank in Springfield and every other lumber dealer.

Q. Naw is this Stericker the owner of the land?

A. Stericker was the owner of the lot. So I make a deal with him. Fifteen dollars a month. I said, "I want an option to buy it in ten years .It It No, no. I don't want to sell it. Don't want to sell it." "I've got to have an option or I won' t go," He said, "Well, it would be five thousand dollars." I said, "No, I can't do that. Make it five years and make it thirty-five hundred dollars ." Well he did. I said, "Chances are I'll never buy it."

So then I arranged through him with his friends in the building and loan to get a loan to put up the building. He said he wouldn't put up no building but I finally induced him to do it. So he put up a building there and got the loan and went on frm there. And one of the fellows that was prodding me to go into business for myself was a fellow by the name of Ed Doud, D-0-U-D. Doud was a millwright. If you saw him come in dressed up, you'd think he was a preacher. He's nice looking. And his Sunday suit was soft lapel and all. Married a rich girl from Bloomington. They had farm lands. Ed Doud never drank, never smoked, never swore, but he did like the girls.

So anyhoiy, he said, "Tell you what to do, &Id. You go on, get in businesa and 1'1-2 set up your machinery. I won't charge you a dime. I'll caue out there and work after I leave here at fhc o'clock, and 1'11' work olli Saturday and Sunday. And I won't charge you a dime." Well, we faib off on the smo day and mpt to Chicago arid I contracted and bought ten thousand dollars worth of ma&@qry, ft was a dredge on the market at $hat the. I think 'I paid a thousand dollars down for ten thoug~~.dollatsworth of ,machinery and the$ thought they made a hell of a gopd sale.

He cane down and get it up and Vredenburgh' s called him in and Reynolds said, Wey, Ed, you are helping to put up &Id Fitzpatrick's machinery out there and we don't like you doing that, setting up competition for

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS I J. R. Fitzpatrick 5 us." "Well, I'll tell you what I'll do. I told Bud that's what I'm going to do and I'm going to do it and if you don't want me to work here, I'll quit right now." "No, no, no. No, no." They didn't have anybody to replace him because they let him get away during the war. He had a spat with the superintendent. I got back, after I got back from the war, said, "You need Ed Doud back here to set up the machinery." And they set out to get him. He said, "No, I'm not going to come back there. There's only one guy who can get me back then. If Bud Firzpatrick comes out to get me, I'll come." So I had to go out and get Ed to come in. And he did willingly. So that drew him back there. Well, I got started. Had no backer, had no financial advisors.

Q. Now this was what year now, do you know?

A. That's in the winter of 1921 and 1922. And it was cold. So cold. Builders said, "You can't put this cement in now. It's too damn cold ." So we went ahead and got the plant together and went on from there. And I was driving a Hudson Super-6 then, classy car. So classy that the rumor got around town my brother and I were bootlegging. So anyhow, I was so scared of going broke that I sold the Hudson and got down to a Model, Ford. Got down to a Ford, economizing. And I was not married at that time and I'd always said that I would never get married until I was in business for myself because a guy that's single he can take a chance. A guy with a wife and a bunch of kids can't. So that was in the winter of 1921 and 1922 and went on. And finally I added the lumber addition to it. And then they gat lumber and building materials and so on and then I get running out on the block and buying this house next door and the next one and so on until finally I got the entire block.

Q. Now how long did that take?

A. That was in, oh, that probably covered up to 1935 because the corner stone on this building.here is 1935 as you can see out there. And that was in the depth of the Depression. So the record's out there in stone. See that. (taps table) But luck was with me. (Hits table) Never was there a year I didn't make some money. (Hits table) Never was there a year that I didn't have to pay income tax. 1928 my wife and I--I got married in 1923--Built a house that we live in out there. No. First we lived in some apartments around town here, some places where we paid rent. Built a house that I live in now, 2037 South Sixth, on the west side of Ilea Park.

Then we come along and inveigled in to getting in semipro sports, And the kids go out and win a ballgame from the kids Erom St. Patrick's Church, and they didn't know what name to put on them. But one of the $idrdwas fond of me and tells the sports editor to call them Fitzpatzick's Lumber. And the guy said, "Why don't we call them Fitzpatrick's Lumberjacks ." I read in the paper. So then, "Why don't we have football?'' "Why don't we have basketball?" So it finally got to where we sponsored every sports around the clock by season.

And wen one year we went so far to have a soccer team. A soccer team. A bunch of Scotchmen from out north said, "You've sponsored everything else, come in and sponsor us. You're discriminating against us." He

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick 6

didd't originate that mrd. I said, "Okay." Well I read about them playing here and playing there and so on. And then finally don't hear anymore. "Oh," they said, "we've gone into an international tournament in St. Louis and we're going to win. And that's why we want you to get in there to make your name international 1y famous .It I said, "Okay." Well, I don't hear anything more about them at all. The season closed and I don't hear anything about them. I I'm down in St. Louis, going down to buy sme uniforms at the St. Louis Cardinals far our ballteam. They were better and they were cheaper than any new ones that we could buy. And the kids get a big kick about the different names being labelled in the shirr. Went into a tavern on the north side and looked around and see all the pictures on the wall. Said, "This must be a soccer tournament, soccer headquarters ." Said, It Yes, it is." "How do you--did you ever hear anything about a soccer team up in Springfield?" He said, "You mean Fitzpatrick's?" I said, "Yes." "Well," he said, "we sure did." I puffed up a little more. I said, "How did you happen to how about them?" He said, "Well, they established a new international record." I said, "What was that?" He said, "They played in the national tournament down here and they got beat worse than any team ever on record, 72 to nothing." (laughter) So I backed out.

Q. About [what] year was that? A. That was . . .

Q. Was it in the thirties?

A. Had to be in the thirties. Had to be in the thirties, yes. We got into the Depression and every other sponsor, about every other sponsor, well, the sponsors of football anyhow, they all quit. The only one we could play was Benld . . . Q. Was there kind of a regional leagues in this?

A. No. No. No, no leagues. There was Staunton and Benld. And Peabody Coal Company was one of the last ones we played because they had the coal mine and they weren't affected then. So that part was in the thirties. So that incident in St. [Louis]--with the soccer team was in the thirties too. See, we've got a picture over there. And so on. So anyhow, went on in the lumber business in 1928.

I thought, I got to feeling bad and I 6&lnqt know what it was. Go over to the park and sit in the sun at noon. hour and I'd go home to lunch every noon. Every noon 1'd take a nap sitting up for about twenty minutea, Always did that. And wen &an I worked at Vredenburgh's. So my w%femid, "1'm going to take you up to the doctor." So she takes me up to Dr. Southwick. He checked me all over. This was in 1928. He said, "I can't find anything wrong with him except he's nervous as a cat. Get him away, get him away for a rest." So I wait for her dowastairs because I figured they're going to give something conf$dential, But she said, "Everything is all right; Everything but your nerves. You've got some green medicine of course."

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick - Sponsor of Sports Teams

Front Row: Dom Schaive, Dick Griffin, Carl Verden

Middle: Lefty Horn, J. R. Fitzpatrick, John Kilcumrnings, Heinie Alowelt

Back Row: Harry Ford, Paul Shibley, ? , JimMcDonald, Norman Barnes

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fltzpatrick 7

So I says, "We're going to Florida and going to go down to see your sister Ethel." At Eustes, Florida. Well, she'd go any place where her sister was. Said, "What are we going to do with the baby?" I said, "We're going to put him in a basket and put him in the back seat." I had a Cadillac at that time. I guess I took it in on trade or traded some material for it somehow.

We started to Florida in 1928, stayed there two weeks, [came] back. And my wife and I went to Florida every year from that time on until she died except one year when the Russian Flu come through. And the same doctor had her come up and take some pills that cost ten dollars. Said, "Send Bud up too." I said, "I ain't going up. 1 ain't going up." She got the flu, had to stay home, and that was the only time that both of us didn't get to go to Florida. And I can say this too. There was never a time that I didn't have to pay Uncle Sam some money on income tax.

So getting back now to coming out 05 the Depression. No, when the war was on. That was World War 11. We went out and bought up some land and some lots and built defense homes. That got us into the building business and after that we got in some subdividing and out near Third and Iles we subdivided that. And I lost my boy at the age of twenty. That was 1946. Leukemia. Had a daughter. She still lives. But looked upon him to be my successor and he was stricken with leukemia. And they said if he was ever acute, we'd take him to Mayo Brothers. They said, "Now he can live between three and five years if you let him live a normal life. And for him to live a normal life the secret must be kept from him. And you should know that if you want a secret kept, you've first got to keep it yourself .I1

He died without, while he was sick, without anyone in my family, nobody knowing just what the ailment was, And he finally told his mother that he had leukemia. He died three weeks later. So now then 1 don't have anybody to carry on. Now I'm jumped and gone. I jumped from 1936.

1936 was still in the Depression. There was three guys. Yes, there's three guys there. There's Fitzpatrick, there's McCloskey, and there's Menghini. Bill Menghini. Now Bill Menghini, Italian boy, has SASCO Auto Parts. Bill McCloskey worked for the Illinois State Register, sold advertising. He was a tight, tight Irishman with his money. Should have been Scotch instead of being Irish. He was not married. Bill Menghini goes up to Chicago--now the three of us are close pals. Close pals. Msnghini and his wife will go with Florence and I to Florida. We'd sea them dawn there. We didn't go together but we'd see much of themaat t+ same time. Menghini got the idea of buylng the boats from the WwJd's Fair, He said, ''What do you think about them?" I said, "No good"fBi1. It's no goad. Our summers are too short. We only have five months. And out here in the village the way it is, those that can afford it will want you to give them a pass, a free ride. And the other people won't have enough money to go."

Q. He wanted to put them on the new lake?

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

A. Now the lake is coming on at that time. Yes. I'm a little--because the lake is started now about 1933. About 1933 I think the lake was started. And I go out there with the mayor and the commissioners and walked the site where they said, "This is where it's going to be.'' Wlllis J. Spaulding was the canmissioner at that time and he was an outstanding guy. But Menghini went ahead anyhow and bought the boats and the water starts to build up in the lake. Spaulding has a guy working with him by the name of Slivka. And Slivka for some reason didn't like Bill or maybe it was some jealousy. He barricaded the entrance road to the back, to the boats so he couldn't get the customers to come up to his place.

Well he--at the time the Journal Register operated independently, hadn t t yet been sold to Copley. And he got his story of protest in the paper. Finally, they said no. Then he put it in ads. Finally, they said, "No, we won't take your ads for that ." So there he said, "I'm out of a voice."

I saw, "Well, here's the deal now. Here's what you do. Every guy in the newspaper business wants to have one of his own." I said, "McCloskey, you're a newspaper guy and Menghini, you need a voice. You guys start a weekly newspaper. They're going to have to submit.''

About that time, Spaulding the commissioner is going to want to buy out the Central Illinois Light--private utilities--for seven million two hundred thousand dollars. That figure turned out to be important in our - cartoons. I said, "You start a weekly newspaper and buck the idea of what Spaulding wants to do in buying out the private utilities."

9. You wanted to make them public utilities then, basically?

A. Yes. Yes. So, it wuld eliminate competition. In other mrds, the private utilities would be content to go [to] the City and stay with their price. Well, they were jubilant. Finally Menghini comes to me and said, "Now I'm sick, disgusted. I've got the weak-kneed so and so up to the a1 tar--McCloskey--and he backed away. Chickened out .'I I said, "Get him up out ta my house tomorrow morning at nine o'clock and we'll both work o;n hda~ and see if we can't put it aver,"

Now McCloskey would almost invariably do anything that I would suggest. The three of us played volleyball together over at the K.C. and we were members a£ the Knife-and-Fork-Committee and we were constant companions. So anyhow, we got McClopkey out there. I said, "Now, Bill, you can't af for4 to pass up this go1da-i opportunity ," Ne said, "histen, you know I've gat a job. I've got a-job at the m.I get sixty dollars a week and.the check is always good, It neqer bounces. (laughs) Do you think I'm as good newspaperman as J. D. Myers?" I said, "No, not by a damn sighz." "Do you think I'm as good as Fred Wilhite?" I said, "No, not by a damn sight.''

Q. Now were these people with the Register then?

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

A. Well, no. They had been.

Q. Oh, they had been. Yes.

A. Now, they had been in the newspaper business. J. D. Myers was editor. He's still around town. Fred Wilhite was in advertising, and he now since has died. We went to California. But each one of them had tried the weekly newspaper business and went broke . . .

Q. Oh, I see.

A. . . . real fast. That's why he said, "Do you think I'm as good as them?" Because--so now we're going to follow up. He said, "Well, they both tried it and went broke so how in the hell can I make it?" I said, "They didn't have an issue that affected the public that you've got. A11 they had was their own mercenary interest. But here the public is involved ." He said, "Do you know who we'll be fighting?" I said, "yes, I know who you'd be fighting. The city hall, local politics, the Journal as a newspaper and the Register as a newspaper. But it don't make any difference if you've got enough appeal to the gallery." I said, "Bill, you can't afford to paw up this opportunity."

Well, he melts and looks up pathetically and said, "Well, I'll go on one condition and that is that you'll go with me." I said, "I'll go with you," And he said, "No, I mean all the way. I don't mean just financially. I mean all the way." "Well ,It I said, "I'll go moneywise, sociallywise, and spirtuallywise, and every other wise that you can think of." He reaches up his hand and gives me a dead fish handshake. He said, '"kay. We'll go."

Menghini jumps up and said, "Come on, let's get in the car and go to Taylorville," ~har'swhere you could get the paper printed. You couldn't get it printed here, The Breeze Courier would get it printed over there. So anyhow we got in the car, jumped in and I got out about as far as Sugar creek out there. Said, "What the hell is the matter with me? I ain't got no axe to grind in this damn thing. 1'm getting into somethiqg that's going to be pretty ribald and so on, and controversial and I've got a business that I've got to be concerned in." Menghini said, "Maw you shook hands on it, didn't you? Isn't that any good?" I said, "%s, I'll go but from here on out my name is Jones." We go over and they make a contract over there and my name was Jones.

Q. Oh,.yes,

A. That was in 1936. McCloakey kept the secret so mll that his own lawyer, ,Phil Hutchinson, didn't know who he'd come running to whenever he to get the answe? ,to do somethSng . McCloskey always said that was $is brother Jim. He said, "~imwouldn't know anything," but he blam& it on to Jim. But we went on. i Q. So ;hat was the start of the Citizens Tribune?

A. And +e vote came out, the phenomenal vote, the Citizens Tribune stand, the voice won three and a quarter to one. That don't happen very

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

often. It1s really a landslide if you get it sixty forty. But anyhow the Citizens Tribune was made then. I Q. And your position was against it and that' s the way the vote went?

A. Yes.

Q. You didn' t want it,

A. Yes, Yes. And so we won that and went on and now I'm running a planing mill, running the lumber business. And now I've got to go down, so we go dom and lease office space, that that they're turning down now which will be "The North Village," right across from the Governor Hotel. So we leased that, remodeled it, fixed it up.

No, no, No, no. That comes way later. We rent an office downtown, 21% South Sixth Street. All he needed was a desk and a telephone. So McCZoskey was the guy ~utin front and we went along and I silently looked after all the editorial and the news end of it. McCloskey looked after the advertising. And Menghini, of course, he had his boats and he wasn't too much interested in the newspaper. But he was still part of us. So anyhow I said to McCloskey, "You've got a newspaper. Why the hell don't you put som6 newe in it?" He had a guy up there but all he did was a scissorcutter, cut the stuff out and put it in. I said, "~et some news in the damn paper." "Well," he said, "this guy was doing the best he can." I said, "Yes and I wonder how sincere he is for you because there's nothing to the damn newspaper ." He said, "Well, we' 11 find an editor."

So we1 re looking for a guy. And we1 re down at Fred Schutt's funeral, Bisch's at 8th and Capitol Avenue. Standing out there on the porch and here a guy goes shuffling along, looked decrepit, and he looks up. And McCloskey said, "Hi, el .'' And he waves back. I said, "Who's that?" He said, "That's Malcolm Adams. Don't you know him?" I said, "No, I don't. What does he do?" "well ,I' he said, "he don' t do anything. He's on skid row." I said, "Well, what did he do?'' He said, "What the hell, he was one of the best newsguys in Illinois. He was with the New Orleans Picayune. He was with the*Chicago paper and he featured politics. The guy covered the legislature for the state over here." And I said, "Well, is he really smart?'' He said, "Well, sure he is." I said, "Well, why don't you hire him?'' He said, "I told you he's on skidrow." I said, 'We15, you mly cwe out one day a week and tb-t's on Thursday, thatls the. only day he's got to be aober." (laughs) I .' 14awl hir@~blc~h'i~ia~s~He was a dcrkiet then. separated frm his &fk and his family g& the kids and all. And they got the other guy ~$p*ere, the scissogscutter. And I said, "Give Adams a desk." I go up tiBre+and find that he set him a table snd a nailkeg for a chair, You know, on a box over there. Well, everything he wrote he submitted to me. k hew my mind better than 1 did. Theyrd sent it out to me to check it over. And he didn't bow I had anything to do with the newspaper except that 1 was a good friend of McCloskey's.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS 1943

William Menghini, Jim McCloskey, J. R. Fitzpatrick - Newspapermen

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS The Citizens Tribune

Front Row: Ed DeLong, Mickey Doughton, Lee Zalle, Irene, Joe Marx, ? 9 Delores McCarthy,

Middle Row: J. R. Fitzpatrick, Tom Burton seated: Warren Duddleston, Jack Moser, Lee Peek, Joe Crickard

Back Row: A1 Meyer, Burl Richardson, Bill Duhs, Pete Rooney, Ray Legg, Joe Legg, Karney Baxter, Ma1 Adams, Carl Rudin

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

Q. He was just sending it to Mr. Jones?

A. Yes. (laughs) Yes. So anyhow, went along and he was really a jewel. And now then it comes time to renew the contract over in Taylorville and our opposition had gotten to them. They put the blocks to us like they did beginning with this vote.

Q. You mean the dailys here?

A. They got, yes, the Copley Press. In the meantime Copley Press bought the Illinois State-Register in the same year that we started, 1936. Mght after we started, they bought it and combined. And Mrs. Reed becows a widow and owner of the Breeze Courier and I can't get her to renew the contract. I said, "Mrs. Reed, just fill in the amount that you want." She said, "Mr. Fitzpatrick, the war is on. I'm not going to sign a contract. There's no other place you can go and whether you know it or not, ~ou'reout of business."

END OF SIDE ONE

Q. Well, okay. We've left the other side with the woman from the Breeze Courier telling you you were out of business. Okay, go on now. ?here we go.

A. Mrs. Reed further backed up her statement saying because the war is on, the federal government prohibits any such things as printing equipment, newspaper equipment being transported any place. I said, "Well, okay, Mrs. Reed. You might be inviting a competitor." She laughed at that. We look around and find the war is to our benefit.

There was a German language paper in Chicago that was put out of business because of the war. We go up there and met the German who owned it ad he was in distress. He had a fully equipped plant including cammercial printing equipment. We bought the entire plant for $12,500, went over on Jefferson Street, in what is now the New Frontier HomelBlock or something across from the Governor Hotel, and rented a building aver there. First floor and a basement from Frank Sgro for a modest rental fee. But we had to pay to fix it up. Menghini says, "You're familiar with that, the construction business. You look after that." I did. While we're in the process of getting the machinery put together, we ran into a sit-down strike, a slorup deal. Oh, oh. Here the eneray has now moved in here. The way they were going we'd never get the plant finished . Q. Ilornd down by the construction workers?

A. By the man that we hired. The mechanic that we hired who belonged to the union. And we brought him in from Chicago. I sensed or surmised that we were becoming a victim of a sit down strike even though we were paying the wages. I wasn't sure.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

One Sunday evening I went wer to the man's room--a Mr. Wallace in the old Illinois Hotel in the neighborhood there. I said, "Get your tools, set them out on the front step this afternoon, right now. Tell me what the tools are that are yours and we'll have them set out on the front steps and you come by and get them. I don't want you to be in the shop anymore.'' Well, the declaration was also somewhat under the heading of an inquiry because I wasn't sure that I was right. But when he didn't get up and swing at me--he took it in a docile way--then I knew that my suspicions were correct. He nwer gave me an argument. We were lucky to find another fellow [Tanner] to take his place. And we got the machinery put together. And we were jubilant. And then we ran off the first pictures which are in there. And, no, no, no, no. No, I'm ahead of myself. While we were in the process of setting the machinery together--and I know nothing about machinery even though 1've been around it all my life, from a typewriter all the ways up to a printing press and a sawmill. And now I'm jumping the gun again. I'm jumping the gun again. Hold it there for a minute and go back.

We're building houses in the World War 11 and lumber becomes scarce. And we're under the OPA [Of £ice of Price Administration]. And we have to send to the south, I send my man down south to buy lumber, put it an the trucks, and haul it up here. We had lumber when nobody else had it. And finally my man called and said, ad ere's a sawmill down here." He told my wife, "There's a sawmill down here "'Bud" should buy. Just what he needs." My wife Florence said to Andy, who was real close to our family, said, "Now, Andy, don't you tell him about that because if he does he'll be damn fool enough to buy it and you'll have to be down there running it." He said, "When I get out of here I'm not going to come back to this dam place again." She said, "well, I'm warning you don't do it,"

Well, I was told about it. Took my brother John and I and went down and looked at it and I bought it. So now I'm in the sawmill business five hundred miles away. And here's a Yankee invading the south. With the name of Fitzpatrick that don't sound very good in a little town in the south. So I had Andy go down to the Baptist Church every Sunday morning--well, he belonged there. And anyhow later on I had my nephew go down to run it as my manager. I had he and his wife, both Catholics, go to church, the Baptist Church every Sunday morning which had kind of elimLnated a little of the friction. f So apybow we finally would go out and buy the timber, cut it down, haul it 101, run it throu8h the machinery, bring it up here. So we had machhne~~,I mean had lumber that othe~sdidn't have, The next thing 1 know in walks a guy from the OPA wants to check our grades on lumber. Well, it didn't have any labels on it but that was not a violation because it had never been sold to anybody else. We owned it, it was our property and the law only governed where there was a sale involved. So anyhow, he fooled around here, the government finally sued me for one hundred,and twenty thousand dollars. OPA.

I had friends or what was supposed to be friends in Congress like Scott Lucas. I give him some campaign money when he first ran as Senator. And others. Another guy by the name of Carter Jenkins was a friend of

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick 13

mine. I said, "Give me an invoice." My son dies right at that time. We're going to Florida. My man, Bill Walsh said, "Bud go to Florida and forget about this until you get back. I know what your trouble is." I'm down in Florida and get a call from Chicago. Said, "Would you settle for twenty thousand dollars?" I. said, "No, I wouldn't." "Would you settle for fifteen?" I said, "No, I wouldn't ." "Would you settle for ten?" I said, "No, I wouldn't." "What would you settle for?" I said, "I wauldn'y settle for anything until I got an invoice. 1'm still an American and I don't like to be hijacked by anybody." "Well, we're going to sue you tomorrow." They entered a suit for one hundred and twenty thousand do1 lam. Federal government.

Now then we're back to getting the printing machinery now put together and a slaw down trick on this. And I had a date at the newspaper one night to see--one evening--to see Bill McCloskey and he's sitting there in the back room with a little bulb of a light on, leaning over with a straw hat on the back of his head. And he was gasping. He had suffered a heart attack.

I didn't know that he had heart trouble because he just got married five months before that. Kind of a match that my wife and I had something to do with. Married a Bonansinga girl from Jacksonville. And so I said, "Bill, you're going to the hospital right now." So we took him to the hospital and I said, "Shut off all the telephones. You don't worry about a damn thing." "I've got to see this guy who'll go to work for us. Scronce goes to work for us Monday morning ." I said, "Never mind. I'll take care of that. Maybe it will be better with him there instead of you," kidding him.

I'm leaving tomorrow morning to go to Alabama. My brother John was going with me." He was foreman of the yard here. My older brother. I was the youngest of the family of six. And we drive down to Hamilton, Alabama, just getting the sawmill going. We get a call Monday morning from my wife. "McCloskey just died. Come back for the funeral ." Now then who in the hell. There ain't anybody with the newspaper that knows a damn thing about it. McCloskey was the only one that did. Now I'm out in front. That's the first time McCloskey's lawyer knew that I was in the deal. He had to find out then. And Menghini's heart was never in it.

We have the machinery put together, run it off. McCloskey's gone to his grave. And I move a desk down there. And Menghini takes off for a conventLon, auto parts convention in California. Then he stops by for a few minutes ,and then he goes to one in New York. ~e's gone for six weeks.

My boy Jimmy is editor of the paper out at the Cathedral boy's high school, He liked the newspaper business. That fit in just good. He starts writing the column. It's up there on the wall. "The Real McCoy." "The Real McCpy." Well, that was a joy for him and a joy for me.

And Menghini, he gets off the train and comes in and said, "I want to sell out my interest in this newspaper." I said, "What did you say?

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick 14

What did you say?" "Yes, and I'll even take a discount .It I said, "Bill, how the hell do you think I got into this deal? I was dragged in by the argument you had with the boats out at Lake Springfield, and now I'm destitute. McCloskey's gone. I don't know anything about the newspaper business and you want to sell out ." "~es,"he said, "I'll take a discount."

"well, I'll tell you, Bill, what I'll do. If I buy, I'll pay you what you got dollar for dollar. There isn't anybody in Springfield going to go around and say they were in partners with me and they lost money which would mean that I cheated them. I'll make an agreement with you right now and I'll sign it. We'll initial it. I'll buy you out, dollar for dollar. Give you a week to change your mind. And I hope that you do." So we initialed it.

Soon as the seven days was up, he comes in and says, "Well, time to pay. And I accept the proposition. ~et'sgo and see your lawyer Edmund Burke," Edmund Burke was my lawyer. He was the lawyer for John L. Lewis. And at the same time he was the lawyer for Carl Sheltoa but he was the best lawyer in the United States. I said, "No, we won't go to Edmund Burke because he's my lawyer. We'll pick some neutral lawyer and you start out looking for one."

He give me some names. "There' re not available," he said. But we got around to where we picked one guy, Jim Martin, who was the son of the manager of the newspaper in Taylorville, the Breeze Courier. Well, I didn't hold that against Jim. He looked all right. He had worked in the internal revenue before he got his license to practice. Thought he was all right. But before that. So anyhow, he [Menghini] said, "Now I want to have this inserted." Some things had begun to nickel and dime the deal, see. And a few of them I agreed to.

Finally I got mad. I said, "Now, Bill, you1re nickel and diming me now. This was your proposition. I withdraw everything I've yielded to. You're still in the newspaper business and you've got a partner whether you lib him or not. The deal is off ."

Now $t that time, you got Jim Martin. That's where Jim Martin comes into ;theqdeal. Jim said, "Now, Bud, let's not get excited about this hereideal and so on. Let's go on, go on, and go on." I said, "Okay, well& go,on. You're representing--you're not representing me, Jim, You't~ representing Mr. Menghiai as long as he wants you, but not me. Now we'll meet up in Mr. Burke's office, the first place you suggested, Bill; In my lawyer's office." Called Burke. He said, 'Well, Jim, what can 4 do for you." He's one ~frthefew guys that called me Jim. Told him ME wanted to make a deal and he said, "flkay." I I lo&^ at Bill, "Do you want to go thrrrrugh with this deal?" Said, ''yes, I do." Said, Well, there's one thing you've got to do before we proceed any further. I want you to make good on that two dollar bet that you reneged on about Hokey Lock being elected. Want to pay it all right. Lay it out, Otherwise it's no deal," And just as firmly as that too.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick 15

That deal was Hokey Lock who had played with the Lumberjacks. And was a bartender and so on around here but he ran for office several times, never got anyplace. I decided we'd have him run for city commissioner. We was walking down South Fifth Street one Saturday afternoon after we leave the paper. "Man," I said, "look at that Hokey. The damn fool's got a campaign off ice up on the third floor. Who the hell is walking on the first floor?" "Yes," they said, "they ain't going to elect no bartenders city commissioners. " "Well ,I1 I said, "I '11 bet they do. 'l

We all meet our wives for dinner. And Jennie, his wife, takes out a paper, a little card and writes and then we sign it. She held the paper and showed it to us afterwards. But he still didn't pay, So anyhow Hokey Lock won and I won. But he never did pay.

So we went on and made the deal, paid off Menghini. So I 'm in the newspaper business all by myself but my ace in the hole was Malcolm Adams, the guy we picked up off skid row. He had a brilliant mind and he claimed to be an atheist. He was a Presbyterian. We had him buried from Reverend Hildebrand's Third Presbyterian Church. I said, "Ma1 will look up. He might not forgive us for this."

So anyhow he was given to going out and getting drunk as soon as the paper was out and particularly if there was something good, something that was hot. If he figured it might be too controversial. Wouldn't make any difference if I was out in California, Florida, wherever it was, Chicago. He could catch my idea and write it just the way I wanted it.

So anyhow, I want to get him away from the heavy drinking, out getting drunk. And I used this device to do it. I said, "Mal, you've got to write a column and put it in the paper and put your picture in with it. Write anything you want to but get as much humor into it as you can." Well, it appears the first week good but no picture. The next, no picture. The next, no picture. Called him in. I said, "Mal, your picture is not in that column." "1 don't have no picture." I said, ''Don't give me that. We've got Walt Bubnis--who's right here now--with the darkroom down below and he'll take your picture any time you want to take it." I said, "I just want to tell you this. Don't make any difference, you can take your choice, I want it to be agreeable. Any time your picture's in the column you6'll get paid that week. Any time it isn't, you won't get paid. '' (laughs)

So anyhow, we got the picture in. Now, as soon as it comes in I said, 11Now you see that picture. You can't £001 them any longer. He can't blame it on Fitzpatrick. When you walk down the street drunk in this block he~eor any other place, they'll say, 'There goes Fitzpatrick's drun&ep,editor. ' l1 He never drank any whf akey af ter that. Just confined himself 'to beer.

Q. Alb right.

A, So after that, he got reunited with his wife and his kids and all.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

Q. No kidding.

A. Just sort of settled down. He died right on the job at the office out here. So anyhow, then we come along and built this building. No.

Q. I was curious about that lawsuit. The OPA lawsuit. How did that turn out?

A. Oh, okay. All right. Jim Martin, now I had him on that deal representing me. And they have a guy by the name of Zimmerman come down from the Milwaukee office, because that's the regional office to see about making a settlement. We're meeting downtown and Martin's over on the side. And he pulls along like that and stepped back and said, "Mr. Zimmerman, what kind of deal, what kind of settlement did you propose?" I said, "What did you say, Jim?" I said, "We are not proposing any kind of a settlement until I see an invoice." Well he said, the guy said, "Well you may have to go to Chicago." I said, "I may have to go to Washington, D.C. and we don't mind going either place. As a matter of fact, my wife and I go to Chicago about twice a month so that's no burden at all. I am not going to pay a nickel unless I know what I'm paying for. I still think I'm an American." He said, Well, we1 re going [to] have to push the suit ." "Okay." I go and get Edmund Burke. They sued me for that. Howard Doyle is the United States district attorney. He's from Decatur. He happened to be a friend of mine. And he' 11 do as much as he could. They finally agreed to settle for ten thousand dollars. Edmund Burke said, "NOW, Jim, you've got to be sensible. We'll have to pay it. You do not have enough money to fight the legal department of the United States." He said, "I'm not going to charge you anything for my services because I know you're being rooked." I've got the ten thousand dollars and paid him off under that kind of a settlement and the guy that was able to do it was Edmund Burke. Now so that was part of the rebound of the Hamilton saw mill and the lumber cwpany and hare and so on. Naw then where was 1 when I left? Oh, left off--where did I leave off?

Q. With Malcolm Adams and how you got him straightened out and back to his family and all that.

A. Oh, yes. So then I'm in the newspaper business and like it.

Q, And meanwhil~~yourlumber businese is,still going on?

A. Yea, yea,, Because I would be out here and I'd be down there too.

Q, I)h, yes. You were rifltfqg about setting up that print shop and everything and the problmg you had with the slow down.

A. Oh, yes. With the slow down strike. Yes, Well, we got that out of the my because I hired a guy by the name of Tanner, T-A-N-N-E-R. Mark that name Tanner down. Tanner instead of that other guy. I'll think of that afterwhile. So anyhow, I went along and everything was okay on that, hd we had to sign five different union contracts.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Q. This is in the forties now?

A. Yes. So anyhow, went along. Then I decide that I'm going to put up a building on our own. And I go down to the southeast corner of Ninth and Capitol Avenue and bought a residential building there. Was owned by the firlongs. F-U-R-GO-N-G.

A. Furlongs had a drygoods store here in Springfield and they were the elite. I go down and buy the property and was going to dismantle it, put up the building. And on a Saturday night a guy from New York representing Robert Hall called and said, "Mr. Fitzpatrick, will you have dinner with me? I want to talk to you about putting up a building for us." I said, "Okay." In a minute I said, "Now do you want to take a tour of the town?" "No, I don't need a tour of the town. I know what I want to buy and you own it. 1 want to buy the property. I want you to put a building for us at Ninth and Capitol ." I said, "Okay."

We agreed on the deal right then. So there goes out the window me building a building for the Citizens Tribune. I built the building for Robert Hall. It was their one hundredth building. They were here six years and finally quit. Quit, they couldn't make it. -mey were cash and this is a credit town. Found it was different than any other place in the United States. And they found out it was a credit town instead of a cash town. And they were right on the edge of the poor section, the black section and so on. And the people there were looking for dredit, not cash. So they quit before their lease was up. They were there eight years. Paid good money. That now is the Abe Lincoln Wax Museum.

Q, I see.

A. I got that thought in Vancouver, Well then we come down here and built thds building here, 910 South Ninth. Moved the machinery in here. I Q. So the Tribune used to cane out of thia building? A. ?he one next door. I c Q. Oh, okay.

A. Our machinery and all was in there right there. My wife nwer liked the newepaper business. And $he was an ultraconservative but went along with me gn anything I want. Ment along with me wen though it was not to her from a business standpoint.

So anyhow, we built the building here and the advertisers kept saying, "Oh, if you were only a daily newspaper. Why don't you give us a daily newspaper? Why don't you give us a daily newspaper?" That was all the bunk because I wasn't sure. I'm shaving one morning. I said, "What the hell would happen to the newspaper business if I lost Malcolm Adams? I haven't got my bay Jimmy to go with me and I haven't got anybody else I know." Myhow, I said, "Well, I'm going to see.'' I go to New York and

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

-net fixed up on the wire service and all which UD ;o that time are not available, - I got Associated Press and all the oiher things I needed. I said, 'Well, why we're going to convert to a daily newspaper ." Malcolm Adams didn't like it. Didn't say anything openly, but I could sense he didn't like it.

Q. This was about when now?

A. I think 1956. Maybe 1956. Yes, 1956, Because we were twenty years in the business. 1956. Well, had to hire a lot of different people. The advertisers didn't come through. And if you're going to sell any merchant's advertising, f t's going to be between Labor Day and Christmas We started in September.

The advertising didn't come. I said, "I thought you wanted a daily. I thought you wanted a daily." They did. They'd go over to the Journal-Register and say, "No, we want a better price because we're going to the other paper." Well, I had my fingers crossed all the time. Finally, the unions, the guy at the union, have to make the union preesman come in. We only need three guys to run the press. This is what's going on at the London Times right now.

The guy they have heading--the business agent for the unions was a guy by the name of Novak who was a foreman at the Illinois Stare Journal. And sitting down he said, "Now, ~ou'regoing to have to have five men on that press. I'm serving notice on you. We1 11 give you till the first of December." I said, "Now, is that an ultimatum?" He said, "Yes, it is." 1-said, "Well, now ranember, Novak, there's damn few things you can get a stubborn Irishman to do he if don't want to do it. But you said December the first, didn't you?" He said, "Yes ." I said, "Okay."

Now I was coming along and was looking forward to going away to Florida and it isn't easy now because you've got the daily newspaper there.

Q. It was coming out as a daily at that time for a while?

A. Xes. Oh, from December until the time we quit which was November, the last day in November.

Q. I see. Okay.

A. My wife says, "How long are you going to fool around with those no-good double crossi~advertisers?" "~tvery long." Said, "What do you mean?" I said, "@#*'re closing tamorrow morning .I'

I picked' up the phone to call my son-in-law. It wouldn't mean anything to him, I said, "Tm, just wanted you 20 how we're closing the Citizens Tribune tomorrow." I go and go to sleep and go to bed and as usual 1fke my wife would say, "Nothing troubles him. He's snoring within five minutes frm the time his head hit the pillow." Never once did I have worry. I'm blessed with this. No worry disturbed my sleep. I come dmin the morning and type it up. Two different parts. Sent one out. to one Linotyper and one to another.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Pretty soon the editor we had now, a guy by the name of Charley Topp-oh, in the meantime Malcolm Adam had died. Malcolm Adams died before the daily newspaper got into operation, So we had a guy brought in, Charley Topp. He'd been here before. And he didn't have much on the ball. So Charley Topp cmes running in. Said, What does this mean?" I said, "What does it say?'' "It says we're quitting business .'I "That's exactly what we're going to do."

You never saw a sicker bunch of cats. It goes out that the guys that we're so defiant telling you what you're were going to have to do, a sick bunch of cats. I took and sold the machinery to a place down in southwest New Mexico, or some other place. And wnt on. So that was

the end of the newspaper.-. That was the end of the newspaper. Is that enough?

Q. Yes, I think that might be . . .

END OF TAPE ONE

Q. Mr. Fitzpatrick, 1ast week we h eard a great deal about the history of the Citizens Tribune, how it started, how you ended up with almost- full responsibility for it, how it went to a daily publication for a short while and how finally you called a halt to it in 1956. I would like to talk with you today or have you talk about the things that the Citizens Tribune stood for in your mind, what its accomplishments were, what its editorial positions were, and so on. I know you started by pushing a referendum against the purchase of the private utilities to make them public. Over the years were there other such things that you got involved in and was that what you saw the paper's major purpose to be to get involved in the citizens' issues like that? That's a lot of questions there.

A. Well, a few years after the Tribune was launched the Copley Press which owned the Illinois State Journal, the morning paper, bought out the Illinois State Register, that was the afternoon paper, so competition was eliminated there as far as ownership was concerned. colonel Copley had been a congressman until they passed the federal law that you couldn't be in the utilities businese and be in the newspaper business. And he owned the paper at Elgin, Aurora and a few other towns up that way.

Q. Did he operate out of California at that time?

A. He Later moved to California. And so he had to make a choice. And he decided he liked the newspaper business, And fortunately--how lucky he was-he sold his utilities stocks just before they all went to pot under the Sam Inaull failure in Chicago. Sam Insull boosted utilities stock prices way up and so by reason of the government rule and the choice, he sold out at a fabulous profit. He later moved to California and he had twa adopted children. One was named James and the other was--John Satterlee. He had one adopted child. That was James Copley.

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The interesting part about that was he and his wife went to--if I talk about something that I've already talked about stop me. They went to an institution in New York and saw an orphan baby that they liked. And went home to think about it and when they came back they were told the baby was gone, adopted by another family. And the lady told her, the superintendent told her, "These things don't last very long. You've got to make a quick decision." And said, "The one you want here now, decide right quick.'' They decided and they picked the boy and they named him James. And they gave him a good education.

But there was another brother unknown to them. They found out the boy was with a family up in northern New York in the lumberjack section and he was adopted by a family by the name of Satterlee, S-A-T-T-E-R-L-E-E. John Satterlee was persistent and he was told his blood brother was adopted by a rich family and he became persistent in tracing him.

Years go on and John is still interested. And he wrote letters to him in California. And Colonel Copley wrote him a stern letter and told him not to send any more that they had tranquility in their family and they didn't want any disturbance from the outside.

John still pursued and met one morning in the Union Station in Washington his brother who then was in the service of World War 11. And they had to meet on the sly. And they kept in contact secretly from there on out. One time in the Union Station in New Pork the mother and father's there and the boy. And John was able to arrange where he met with his blood brother and they met over in a corner looking right upon the parents who, where there was supposed to be a barricade between them. Colonel Copley died and then John Satterlee was brought back into the Copley Press here . . .

Q. John was?

A. John.

Q. The one that was persistent?

A. Yes. They brought him back here, and of course he lacked the college education that his brother Jim had gotten. So they used him in jobs that were not as important as publisher and they gave him a job as maintenance superintendent. We knew John very well. And he's still a friend of ours.

Q. Is that where you got the story?

A. Yea*" And I got this story from him a&! it's the only place where it'd been printed. John gave me the story and told me I could print it and we printed it in Main Street. Ad they had a book printed, The Silver Watch, that was dedicated to the life of James Copley, the publisher and the father. But they had no reference made at all to this story that I've just told you here.

And so John's still here. And he's very active in the Hundredth and Fourteenth Cavalry with the Civil War and they meet once a week down at

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Lincoln's Home and have a little ceremony once a week. And he's a nice gentlemen. So my wife and his wife were in social contacts many times,

The Copley Press, of courae, did not relish the idea of having a newspaper in existence in Springfield that could print as freely as the Citizens Tribune. We coined the title of "The Voice of springfield ." And the public began to look upon us from the time that we advocated the vote to not eliminate electrical competition. Our intention was given a lot to the affairs of the City Hall of Springfield, the village as it is. And it is a village. Very interesting one.

City Hall is the best news, most interesting news they can get. We have been in, active in all the political campaigns and usually the ones that we picked became the winners as against the ones that may have been endorsed by the Journal Register. And that carers such ones as--did I mention Hokey Lock, didn't I?

Q. You mentioned just the bet you had with Menghini that you put into that by the agreement.

A. Okay. Such as Hokey Lock; George Doyle, a necktie salesman; John Hunter . Q. Can I just ask you about Hunter? I was reading about a 1955 or 1956 Citizens Tribune and you were going after Hunter pretty good then about some things, You say you endorsed him when he first ran?

A. Yes. We did. There's a story about ,,John Hunter that I have to tell you and others including John Curren, the state's attorney, GU-R-R-E-N. And others.

Q. Did your endorsements follow any party lines?

A. No, No party line. We belonged to no party. we're strictly independent. Strictly independent. And let's see now, Does it stop when I stop?

Q. Well, no. It doesn't.

A. kaes on.

Q. :You want to stop it a eec~nd?

A. No. John Hunter turned out to be a fbg of ours, Looking b~ck through life, my greatest weakness, in my opinion, was &ing favors for those that turned out to be ingrates. John Hunter turned out to be one of the biggest ingrates of ql. He was a great baseball player and footbdl player and our first contact with him was when he was playing on the Empires against the Lumberjacks,

He was kind of a hot headed Englishman I guess you'd call him. And he, after the Empires quit sports--the Connors Empires, they owned the Empire Hotel. They had quite an advantage. They could give a guy lodging and eats and drinks and all and that was quite an advantage and all.

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And that was quite an advantage they had over us. But the Lumberjacks was quite an institution in Springfield. I believe that we have the record of having had continuous play longer than any other semi-pro sponsored team in the United States. We started in 1924 and we went to 1956 and cwered all the sports starting with the baseball season all the ways through with football, basketball, bowling. Men and women.

Q. When you say semi-pro, did these guys get any money for playing?

A. Some of them got money for playing. Like the pitcher, we'd pay the pitcher extra money because that's 85 per cent of a ballteam. But they were allowed to get it as a semi-pro. But they didn't belong to any organized league. That's why we called them semi-pro. Half way in between.

John Hunter came to play with the Lumberjacks after the Empires quit. HE: thought I was kidding him when I asked him to play. He said, "Well, I can't understand now as bitterly as I fought you that you wanted me to be part of your team." I said, "Well, John, I admire your courage and ability.'' So anyhow he came and played. He gets married. And we had built some defense homes out on West Capitol Avenue. And he was working as a deputy sheriff under Walt Hagler, H-A-G-L-E-R. And he was being evicted from his place he was living in, owned by his wife's relatives. And he had no place to go and houses were mighty scarce. He came to me for help. And I am in Florida. And I have my office here trying to arrange to get him in. And they said, "No, we can't let him move in because he has no occupation, has no job.'' At that time he was a candidate for city office.

I've jumped a liftle ahead of the game now. He went to the service, World War 11, came back on a furlough and paid our office a visit. I said, "John, when you get out, we've got a job for you. Circulation Manager." He had worked as a deputy sheriff before he went to service. So he came in after the war was over. He eaid, "No, I don' t want to go back to that sheriff's office because I've got to tote a gun and I'm liable to get shot and I've got a wife,"--1 think he said a child. I'm not sure ab~rthe child.

Anyhow in a few days he made up his mind and he went back to the sheriff's office, then a change of administration and he loses his job as deputy sheriff, And canes in and he says, "Bud, I'm in a hell of a shape. I'm going to have to leave Springfield. My brother's going to get me a job under John L. Lewis in Washington." And I eaid, "Why don't you stay here, John?" Ha' said, "I've only got $283, my entire belongings .I' I said, "Why dad-t you stay here and run for .city commissloner?~" "What are you doing, kidding me?" IEe eaid, "I couldh't even &e't emdaraed to hold my jab as a deputy sheriff." "W?ill,.maybe you @tot same angles you've q+wr thought of. We've never used the Citizens Tribune yet to push any particular candidam of our own, but we' 11 make an exception."

Q. This ms right after the war, probably?

A. Yes. Well, he said, "1'11 let you know. I've got to talk to another guy." I think the guy was Tiny Overaker, 0-V-E-R-A-K-E-R, who

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

was strictly a politician and no particular friend of mine. Even though we were raised in the same neighborhood. Maybe a little jealousy involved. Ne said, "I've got to talk to another guy and I'll see you tonight at 9:30 at your house."

He come out and said, "Well, Bud, I've made up my mind. I'm going to Washington." I knew I had to pull a Knute Rockne on him there. I said, "John, I'm sorry I've ever let you be in a Lumberjack uniform." "Why?" I said, "Because you ain't got no guts. Here you're a native of Springfield and you're going to let same stumble bums chase you away from your family out of town and you don't know where you're going to." I said, ''Why don't you stay here and run for commiasioner?'' Be said, "I'll sleep on that .I1 He come in the next morning with a braggadocio swing. Said, "I'm going to accept your challenge. I don't know where I'm going to go to but I'll take it." We sponsored him . . . Q. Excuse me. Did the commissioners at that time, did they each have separate duties like they do now?

A. No. They'd be elected, they just elected en masse and then they'd have to decide who's going to take this office, who's going to take this office,

Q. I see.

A. So anyhow, it went on and we gave him publicity and gave him ads and so on. And to the amazement of everybody he come in third place in the primary. Third place in the primary you know you're going to be in. And he came in high man in the election, and goes in. George Doyle, the necktie salesman, goes in with him at the same time. Now George might have been there before that. He may have been reelected. May have been. I'm not sure about that now. Anyhow, they're out to my house election night. And I said, "Now, George, they're going to have to pick a guy for the City, Water, Light, and you fit the Street and Health Department, You ought to vote for John Hunter, give him your vote for City, Water, Light." He said, "Okay, 1'11 do it." So that made him commissioner of City, Water, Light.

Q. The cumissioners voted for each other?

A. Yes. The commissioners had to decide. Yes, they had to decide. So John is in. "~ohn," I said, "keep your nose clean. Willis Spaulding was in there far twenty-six years. you're in the City, Water, Light. You deal with the people. They're your customera .'I

a, nephew come back fran the war, Joe Halpin, son of my older wesistbrt, &;AcL+PcZ-N. He said, What @out you getting me a job working undwrhfP ~ai<'%a'ter,he's a friend of yours." ?: said, "well, I thought you were a finance officer .I1 He said, "I was." I said, "You want to be a ~oiiticalbum the rest of your life." I said, "No, I won't do anything for you.u No. No. He first wanted to go to Eddie Barret, Secretary of State. And then I gave him that answer. Come back the next day and said, "Well, City, Water, Light is business of a utilities and John Hunter is a friend of yours. What about him?"

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

Well, he kind of had me so I said, "Well, I called John Hunter and I said, 'I've got a nephew that wants to talk to you about a job.'" He said, "Have him come out to my house on Sunday morning." I thought that was funny, Sunday morning. He come back and he said, "I thought Hunter was a friend of yours .I' I said, "I think he is. What did you say wrong?" He said, "I didn't say anything wrong."

Anyhow% Hunter told him to come back in six weeks and then I knew he didn't want anything to do in the way of favoring me. He apparently had to listen to Overaker.

And so it went on and our guys found out that, no. I ask him about the purchasing agent. So he asked him about purchasing agent. He said, "I've already got that filled .I' So he appointed by the name Kunz, K-U-N-Z, Frank Kunz, who was a close ally of Overaker and a fellow who had never held any important job around. But that was purchasing agent for the City, Water, Light. Big job. So anyhow, Hunter appointed Frank Kunz .

Well we knew, we begin to watch and immediately Overaker goes out and buys a quarry out at Athens, Illinois. And now he's set to sell a lot of concrete to Lake Springfield. We go out to the lake and find out they'd issued orders for the purchase of a lot of gravel. But what they had out there was nothing but banksand worth about ten cents a yard.

I took John Hunter out there and showed it to him. I said, "John, you incurred the enmity of the Journal-Register. Emil Smith is the publisher and I suggested that you keep his brother-in-law on the payroll. But you fired him and he doesn't owe you anything. Supposing they come out here and saw this stuff out there. They'd said, 'This is the kind of candidate the Citizens Tribune endorsed.'"

We went to lunch at 8th and South Grand. "What are you going to do, ~ohn?" He said, "I'm going to go back and fire Kunz." He went back and fired Kune. He was off, he was out of the City Hall for two days and then he was back again. That probably was the breaking of Hunter--because I never got any favors from him, never asked him for any except that one I juet mentioned. And the first thing I know what I told the editor, "Just print the news ae you find it." Well, someplace I missed this along the line. His relatives had chased him out of his house and he had no place to go.

A. Yes. Pind I'm dom in Florida. Said, "Let him move into that house on &at Capkt01 .I' And they said, "Can't because he hasn't got any job .It I said,-"Well . . .II

Q. That was before he was cammissioner obviously? Right?

A. Yes. Yes. It was. Said, "Well, he'll have a job in April." He was candidate then. "He'll have a job in April." He moved into the house and paid fifty dollars in February. And the month of June we got him title to the house without paying him more than just his monthly payment. I cite these things to show you what an ingrate he was.

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From there on out what you called a feud, he called it the feud, started. We treated him just like we treat anybody else. We just printed the news and there was a lot of bad things to find out in the place. And of course, like I said, he was a hot headed Englishman. So he got reelected in spite of us. Oh. Oh, Joe Gerzin who later became the chairman of the airport authority ran the sandwich place down there at 5th, across from the Majesty--Toddle House. Toddle House. And later on he became the founder of the Georgian down here on 9th Street. Joe, once a bus driver, his brother-in-law owned the bus line from Minnesota, can't recall the name right how. But anyhow, Joe comes into Springfield and he shows an interest in politics.

Each time he'd say, "Who's going to run for commissioner, who's going to run, who's going to run?" "I don't know, Joe. I don't know," I did have some ideas but I wanted to see how skillful he was. Finally the hour is late and I said, "Well, the guy is right in your premises here. He's right in this same room." "Next to some guys at the counter?" I said, "No, go a little further. He's your employee. He's right behind the cash register. George Oliver." "Oh," he said, "I never thought about him."

We talked to George and he was highly interested. Two days later he said, "No, he won't run," his wife won't let him. Yes, he ran some supermarkets here. Two or three of them. Was highly successful and a nice guy. But he had sold out to Tolly's. So he was out there helping Joe because their wives were friends. "So I'm all through." I said, "No. Get your wife to work on his wife and that'll do it.'Vinally he said we got him back on the track. George went in. He appointed Joe Gerzin purchasing agent.

Q. George won?

A. George won. Against Hunter, beat Hunter. Wound up in for City, Water, Light, by that time they had it where you were running, the office was designated. So anyhow he mn, but he never liked politics. He didn't lib it. And Joe prevailed upon him to run for reelection but his heart wasn't in it. And he went out and got a chance for a franchise for Holiday Inn. First Holiday Inn in Springfield. And that was out here, the south side out here. And he had about twelve or fifteen guys in it. And one of them was Ray Neiswander. Ray was a local flier and Oliver was too. And anyhow, they got to fighting and Neiswander bought up all the stock and that put him to thh Holiday Inn. And he died a mu1 ti-millionaire.

He worked far me at'the planing mill down here. Brought him t~pfrom St. Lou+. Axad ha asewered an ad as a woodworker, a machine operator. That's his entry %nEo the 'No1iday Inn. He goes up and gets one at Rockford, And then he has this one here and he gets one in Decatur and another one in New Jersey I think. But anyhow, Oliver and Neiswander are friends. Well anyhow, Oliver ran but his heart wasn't in it. And when it canes out in the paper that he's taken on a $480,000 motel it was easy to spread the gospel that he stole, already stole $480,000. So anyhow, now then Hunter comes back and gets reelected.

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Q. Now that would have been about 1954 because . . , A. Yes. Oliver, I mean Hunter comes back and gets reelected. Had no, * really no competition, They bought it off . And we didnt t take any interest in it. I believe the guy that ran against him was Roy Richter I think. But he had a disfigurement of the lip and so on. So he gets back in and maybe he got back in again. But anyhow it was Sunday, a Sunday before he died. He gets on radio for no reason at all and lambasts J. R. Fitapetrick. There's no campaign on at all. Well, I guess something that we printed that he didn't like. And he lambasts the hell out of me. Just came like out of a blue sky. And he died Tuesday of an aneurysm. Taken in the hospital and was a young man at the time.

Q. That was in the mid-1950's or so?

A. Yes. Yes. And no reason why to get so excited about it at all except, well I don't know what it was. Just his crazy feelings. But he died 9of £ice. So that takes care. *a Q. I wanted to ask you about, one of the Tribunes I read you were--in 1954, 1955--supporting then a campaign to get a city manager. Just like the ope, the recent one. Was that the first time that waa ever tried? Because I didn't how about that.

A. Yes. Yes, that was the first . . . Q. And you had petitions in there. Did anything cane of it?

A. No, didn't win.

Q. Didn't win.

A. Too much of a political town and it didn't win, no. No. And there's no place in the United States where a town is more politically oriented than Springfield. Because hell it's not too big but yet we are a capital of a big atate. And a lot of them brought up here from, come in here, drawn in here by reason of the state capital.

Q. I just want to ask one other thing about the Tribune. How big did your circulation get? Do you know what it ran normally?

A. Fifteen thouesnd. When it first started out, it was a throwaway. You knew, you throw it to everybody whether they pay for it or not. And then we got arcmid to all paid. And 1 think it got around fifteen thousand.

Q, Oky, Now during the cmrse of our talks, you've mentioned LuuberSgcks a number of times. I wanted to ask you a few things about the other sporting thlngs. I learned about this in a funny way, doesn't matter how I learned about it. About during the Second World War a wornel's professional major baseball league. And you were the owner of the Springfield Sallees as I understand. Could you tell me was it hardball, overhand pitching?

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A. Yes.

Q. There were a lot of big cities in that league too, right?

A, There was Fort Wayne, there was Grand Rapids, Michigan. One in Chicago. Another one in Wisconsin. Indiana, I1 linois, Wisconsin and Michigan. And it was a brainchild of Wrigley. When the manpower shortage was on and what kind of instituted that was--I had a boy and a girl. The girl still lives. The boy was a victim of leukemia and died at the age of twenty. He died in the year of 1946 T think. 1946 and the war was just over. So I built a stadium out here. Called It the Jim Fitzpatrick Stadium in honor of him. And we had Happy Chandler [Commissioner of baseball] here to officiate the dedication.

Q. Where was that stadium? A. It's now what would be called Third and Stanford . Third and Stanford . Shakey's is at Fifth and Stanford. You go over three blocks and there it is. And we owned some acreage there. It ran all the way down four blocks to Iles Avenue. Iles Junction. Called Iles Junction. And I just built a building there that's seen from as you come over the tracks.

So anyhow, we had the land, we built the stadium and it was first class in every way. I was conscious of the fact that Springfield, lively as it is, never thoroughly would support anything whole-heartedly except the Community Chest Fund. That's the only thing that it supports whole heartedly.' Anything else has to depend upon its own organization.

And about that time it had 283 individual organizations. And I said many things that they go into a meeting and a member doesn't get his voice through the way he wants it, he goes out and starts an organization of his own. That's why we had so many of them.

Springfield has always been a critical town. In the days of the Broadway shows way way back, it was common knowledge in the entertainment field that if you got a lukewarm applause in Springfield, then you went on to Denver and you got one there, you knew you were tailor made. So they take the shows after they're ready to quit Broadway. First stop they would make at Chattertons Opera House in Springfield and then they'd go on. If they got a lukewarm applause here they would go on to Denver. They got it there, they knew they were free to go anyplace in the United States. Now Denver has outgrown that, I think Springfield has lost, has outgrown some of it. But in those days, it was back in the olden days and they wouldn't support anything. And then they get down where they're envious of any guy that is local and gets too far out in front, We went ahead anyhow just out of the warmth for my son. And we had civ* pride nights and so on. You can bo~stone night or so on and do it go~d,but you can't get the steady play which you need.

Q. Now was this when the Sallees were playing?

A. The Sallees come along 1950. And we figured well, we'll try the girls. A guy come down from Chicago and said we ought to try this. I said, '%ell, that's something new." So we took the Springfield Sallees

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and took them up and they got pictures of them in there. So they played hardball. But it didn't take and we quit in the middle of the season.

Q. Oh, one season?

A. Yes. Think we quit in the middle of the season because of lack of attendance. Then the last one we had out there was the M.O.V. [Missouri-Ohio Valley] League. Now maybe I've got that date abaut the girls. I think the girls was before 1950 because I believe the M.O.V. League comes in, that's Class D. That's Class D baseball. Said, "Well, they wouldn't support three, so maybe they'll go for something like this." And the price was down to sixty-five cents.

Q. Just one second.

END OF SIDE ONE

Q. Yes, we can end at any time. But the Sallees . . .

A. The Salleea was a wartime deal, yes. I think that would be about 1947.

Q. Okay.

A. I'm just guessing now.

Q. But it only lasted less than a season?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. I'm curious, how did you recruit players for the Sallees? Wher e did you have to go? They weren't local girls, were they?

A. A couple of them were. One of them was, Yes, a couple were--one of them, wasl-no, she was a coach. She was a coach or the manager. The guys that run the league recruited the girls for it. We didn't have to get them direct. They sent them down here. And Let's see. We had a manager, Had a guy, a vtan manager--and he had been former big leaguer, came from oa9 of the west.ern states out there, and he managed them. And pictures in there with them on the bus and all. And his name's on there, . So he was, we got the help of the league and they even picked this maager for us. But the atteqdalrce . . .

A. 1. .q . wm't thcre so we quit. Ue put on, in contrast to that, we put 3m 'B C&W&C. pf ide night one night. And we had Fred Saigh, S-A-I-G-H, who {owthe. St .' Louis Cardinals. And I called him and asked him to com%i@, not his team. His team was playing that night. It was on a Sunday night. He came up with his wife. His home team, his team was playing at home. Went out, got the mike and he said, he atartled the crowd when he said, "I was born in this city fifty-two years ago." That's why he come up, same pride.

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Q. Now what team was playing on your field when he was there?

A. No, it was the, let's see.

Q. Was it still the Lumberjack team?

A. Lumberjacks, I think, played against some other team or an all star team. I don't know which. Yes, the Lumberjacks were there and they were playing against some other team. I imagine it was anather Muny league team.

Q. Okay.

A. And so Fred startled them when he come out and said, "I was born in this city fifty-two years ago." And hia father took him away, and a lot of people thought he was a Jew, but he was a Syrian. Syrian, I think he was. And so after that I saw Fred Saigh one time down at Cahokia Downs. (interruption)

Q. Want to finish this about Fred Saigh?

A. So Fred Saigh got a bum rap in St. Louis. I was in his office several times. But he tried to buy the St. buis -Star at a high price. And the people rebelled down there. He had the Cardinals now and was going to buy the -Star. He didn't like it so he got a bad rap on income tax where he made too much money in real estate. He said, "I made money so fast my accountant couldn' t keep up with me ."

And anyhow the judge sent him to federal penitentiary. And I saw him at Cahokia Downs at the race track. Be said, "Fitz," he said, "will you do this? When you came to St. Louis, will you stop in and see me?" No longer is his "Attorney at Law" on the door. He had to take that off. And he had the stock market figures running through there. So he was a pitiful case for all the money, all the fame that he once had. And he went to the penitentiary. So I always had an affection for him. So they, let's see, I don't know of any outstanding ballteam we brought in there.

Q* olrasr.

END cOF TAPE TWO

Q.

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feud between the Progressive Miners and the United Mine Workers. The Progressives Miners broke away and they caused a lot--there was a lot of violence caused.

, Q. This was when, in the thirties?

A. That would be in the thirtes, yes. Xn the thirties. In the thirties. Around the thirties, in the Great Depression. John L. Lewis, of course, was very powerful with the miners representing a national labor organization.

Q. Burke this is now or Lewis?

Q. Okay.

A. Along comes the "Shelton gang" from down in bloody Williamson Caunty. And Carl Shelton's story comes in the 1920's. Much has been written about them, booke and all. They made history in southern Illinois.

Q,, Did you know Carl?

A. I met Carl Shelton one time in Edmund Burke's office. He told me how he,was being ribbed by the guys in the law fraternity that he was a lawyer with only two clients, John L. Lewis and Carl Shelton. There was nothing in common between the two at all. He 'just happened to have both of them. He explained to me how the Sheltons got into their "anti-lawt' crusade when they came back from the Amy and ran a gas station. And they found guys driving up with big cars, pull out a big roll of bills to pay for the gas and they couldn't even speak the English language. They got intereeted and found out that these guys were making their money out of bootlegging. So they said, "What the hell are we doing skinnkng up our knuckles here and getting grease in our hair. Why don't we take the eaay way out?" Everything was all right until they got in action and then the law swept down upon them. The mayor, the state's attorney, the sheriff, and all.

Q. Where did they operate from? I know Williamson, but is that . . . A. Williamson County.

Q. ..,*, ; Johneton City or West Frankfort, Herrin? i A. &itls;* ;he nque of the town now?

A. HBzrgn. Herrin was one of them. And it also tied in a little with Jackson Coutaty , I believe, Williamson primarily.

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A. Yes, Marion is one of them. You'd have to look at that map there. You can get the map and see. So anyhow, so the law said, "No, you can't do that . . .11

Q. They were bootlegging too, that was thair business?

A. No, they only started in bootlegging after they noticed the other guys. Then they figured, "Why don't we take the easy way out?" Then the law moves down on them and said, "You can't do that?" Said, "What do you mean we can't do it? We fought for our country, These foreigners come over here and you protect them and keep us out. So there's nothing for ua to do but take the law unto ourse1ves.l' And they did. And Carl Shelton even went so far as to have an armored automobile. And they tore the hell out of things down there and so they come up here and got Edrnund Burke. Of course, soon they're in the federal court. And they get Edmund Burke to represent Carl Shelton.

He explained to me how Carl was. Said, "~e'sa big guy, looks like a big butcher boy. Whenever you see him in a room he's got his back to the wall. He's facing all doors and all windows and all exits and all entrances. And you can be sure of one thing. He's got a six shooter on each hip. And when he's introduced to somebody, he'll blush."

Fortified with that preknowledge, I'm in his office one day and Miss Blee, the secretary, said, "You know who this fellow is over here?" I know right off the reel frm Burke's vivid description. I sized him up and down and I said--as I rose my hands and surrendered--I said, "~on't shoot." I said, "That must be Carl Shelton." He did blush and he blushed. And he smiled and he blushed. And so that was Burke's connection with the Shelton gang.

And of course, he went to Washington, I mean John L. Lewis went to Washington. One time we was, Burke was at a banquet with him. He attended up there. And John L. said, "1 got to introduce my staff. And the last one I'm introducing is Edmund Burke of Springfield, Illinois. He won a case that everybody else said was hopeless. We just got a decision this afternoon that favored us, the decision from the United States Supreme Court. And we have to give thanks solely to Edmund Burke for that ."

Q. And Burke managed your legal affairs too?

A. And he managed my legal affairs just from kindness, I think. He was the one guy in Springfield that will call me "Jim." He never called me J. R. or .Bud, He always called me "Jim." And about every time I would go into his off ice, he'd take time out to tell me an interesting human . And so I had the highest regard for him and as I told you before howst Or[ e went wer there when I was sued for a $120,000 and we settled for ten ![thousand]. Said, '*YOU don't have enough money to fight the United Statpa government but I won't charge you a fee."

Q. Did you ever meet John L. Lewis yourself?

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A. I did meet him in the Leland Hotel, in the lobby of the Leland Hotel, one time. And he was just standing there. And I went over and introduced myself and I mentioned Mr. Burke. So that softened him up a little. He had a lot of brains and he had a lot of courage. In the midst of the war with the United Mine Workers, he had been seen walking down Commercial Alley, that was the famous alley downtown, in the middle of the night without any body guard with him at all. So he was really a courageous guy. So that was the only time that I had met him.

Q. Had you witnessed any of those battles that you mentioned? I heard there were some right downtown.

A. Well, there was this. The local members of the United Mine Workers came out of World War I and most of them were Italians. I started in the lumber business right after World War I and went out to Starnes Addition which was out northeast and sold the material for a house out there.

Q. Starnes Addition?

A. Starnes, S-T-A-R-N-E-S. Starnes. There was a mine around out there owned by the Starnes family. So I got to know the Italians very well, how they operate. They would came in and say, "How much 2 x 4, how much boxing boards?" They're only two items of about 3,000 that go into building a house, but if you were low on those things, they figured you were low on everything else. So they'd say, "Me make contract. Me make contract." So had a friend, me and a carpenter out there, contractor by the name of Tony Bartolomucci. B-A-R-T-0-L-0-M-U-C-C-I. So we sold one guy and then they were all building their own houses with money they saved during the war. And to sell them you had to go in to the dining table, sit down and drink Dago red. And I had a guy along with me, Tom Dunham, and he'd sing "Bye Bye Blackbird" or something like that. And that would be fine. And the woman would give the nod--"buy." And with the Italians, they'd go and say to the other guy, "How about this Fitzpatrick?" or maybe Johnson or anybody else. If they say, "Good man," you're in, If you're not a good man, all they say is, they shrug their shoulders and say, "I dont t know. I dont t know." If they said, "I don't know, you're out." SO we could trace, oh, at least twenty houses out there that we sold just by a chain of coming along with that we built up confidence with them.

Q. Now they were miners?

A. M;iners, yes. And so, now back to--they're the ones that became membero':ef the Progressive Miners. John L. Lewis had an election and they accused Jahn L. Lewis of stealing the election. And they worked for somebody else, And they broke away adfamed the Progressive Miners Union, Its base we right here, Its enmi was John L. Lewis. So in the heat of the battle they came to the Fitzpatrick Lumber Company and said, "Will you let us have a truck? We want to go wes to Taylorville, Illinois." That was the homebase of the Peabody Coal Company that owned most of the mines around here.

Q. Now,these were Lewis1 men or the others?

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A. No, these were the guys that become Progressive Miners. These were my Italians friends who became Progressive Miners. So I said, "sure, we1 11 let you have a truck and furnish you a driver .I1 Well I got pictures. They got over right on the outside of Taylorville. Pictures shows the American flag up there on top. I think there was two trucks. But the United Mine Workers members were over there waiting for them right outside the west side, right outside of Taylorville on the west side. And they had machine guns. Said, "Don't go no further."

Q. Well, what were they going to do hen they got there?

A. They were going over there to raise hell. They were going over to raise hell with the Peabody Coal Company. They wanted Peabody Coal Company to recognize them and Peabody Coal Company went along with John L. Lewis1 United Mine Workers. So they quickly turned around and came back. And that was the end of that escapade, but there were a lot of fights at the mines. And there was some murders too.

And I remember one of the first orders I got in the planing mill. Just started--so this had to be in the twenties. A guy by the name of Danny McGill came in and give me an order for a cabinet that cost $267 and when we got the cabinet made, we put it on the truck and went out there with it and he paid us the cash right there. That was Danny McGill and he was one of the leaders, one of the officers of the Progressive Mine Workers. So my friendship, of course, was with the United Mine Workers, not with the Progressive Mine Workers and by reason of that my name was mud with all the guys that were on the other side because they knew what was going on.

Q. I remember reading or hearing about an actual battle rlght around Sixth and Capital or something like that?

A. Sixth and Washington, I think. Sixth and Washington. Oh, they had battles, continuous battles. I can't recall them specifically. But they were continuous. And there was bitter feuds between them. Bitter feud between them.

Q. Another name you mentioned that I would like to switch the subject a little with was Scott Lucas. You mentioned him as one you helped out.

A. Scott Lucas was a good ball player, first baseman. Havana, Illinois. Tall and good player. He ran, he was state's attorney over there, ran for congress to succeed Henry T. Rainey, R-A-I-N-E-Y. Came from Carrollton, I believe. Or over that way. And he got elected congressman and he W as a secretary a guy by the name of Bill Walsh. And then he & TUX#+for United States Senate. 1 think to succeed Ham Lewis. %4:& thk Depression. And I recall giving Bill Walsh a St25 campaign donation in front of his office in the Myers Building for Scott. And Bill aid, "That is a pretty good contribution in these days.'' Scott went an and went on to Washington. There he got in the big time.

Q. Did he become a senator?

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J. R. Fitzpatrick

A. Got to--became a United States Senator, yes.

Q. What party was he?

A. Democrat.

Q. Okay.

A. And he became highly respected and became a leader up there under Roosevelt, under the Roosevelt administration. So he really got in the big time and went right along with it. And he had a nephew here. What was the nephew's name? Allen Lucas, Allen Lucas. And he maintained the law office, They opened up a law office here. He maintained a law office and when the OPA sued me for a $120,000, Roscoe Bonjean, another lawyer said, "Bud, you just didn't hire the right law firm.'' In other words any trouble that they stirred up against the client if he went into his law office run by his nephew why it could be eased away. And I went to Washington to see Lucas. I don't know whether he saw me or not but at least he'd said he couldn't do anything for me. And that's where Burke said, "Settle. Settle for $10,000. You don't have enough money to fight the United States government.'' But it went to his head pretty bad. Scott. He was just too big for anybody back in this territory, which is common reaction when you get up to the big time in Washington.

Q. Did he run, win a couple of term?

A. Yes, he did. He got elected and got reelected. And died while he was United States Senator. He had a leg amputated and on his way going to Florida he was taken off a train in North Carolina to the hospital and there he died. And his nephew, Allen, died even I. believe a little before that. So that was the end of the Lucas deal but he was close to Roosevelt . Close to Roosevelt .

Q. I want to switch you wer to sports again. One of the things you've told me and I read about in your paper was that the Citizens Tribune was the only weekly paper in the country that sponsored Golden Gloves.

A. Golden Gloves, that's right.

Q. Could you tell me about that? How long it went on and all and how it happened?

A. Well, ye were active. We started as a baseball team and then by urging from the people from the outside we sponsored all the sports around the calendar. Baseball was my love. I played an my first baseball team. It got started with the ki4s out at St. Patrick's School had won a game at Iles Park. They called up the sports ediSch%ol , t ,

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continuous record for semi-pro sponsorship in the country. So we had baseball, football and all the sports around the year.

Q. And that great soccer team that you told me about.

A. Basketball and bowling. Ladies' bowling, men's bowling, and girls1 baseball, softball and real hard ball and all.

Q. Golden Gloves we were going to . . . . A. Yes, now I'm getting into Golden Gloves. Esquire all-American, Esquire Magazine got in bad over some controversial thing about stamps or something like that and they earned the enmity of the American public and they wanted to do something to offset it. So they got the idea of staging a national league, the league across the nation, Esquire all-American baseball. Now by reason of being on the boxing cornmiasion, I became well acquainted with- Arch Ward who &s a sports editor of the Chicago Tribune. - And our wives, all four of us were friendly and we'd see each other in Florida. And Arch was a great guy, different for a newspaper guy.

Q. He started a lat of things, the all-star games.

A. Yes. Yes. He started the all-star football game. We were at the first one up there. And he was a figure in Golden Gloves. Now, I don't know which comes first here but anyhow we were selected, we worked so we were selected to represent downstate Illinois, in all-American kid baseball. And there's a picture on the wall over there I think of Johnny Orr's who's now coach over at Iowa. He was at Northwestern I think.

Q. Iowa State and he was at Michigan. A. Michigan, yes. And we brought him . . .

Q. So than you sponsored some leagues or kids leagues as an American league, is that it?

A. We did that but we, now I'm back with the Citizens Tribune. I haven't got these pieces just right. SQ we promoted, we organized a league, kids league up to fifteen years of age. We furnished their suits. There was ten or twelve teams in the league and we named them like after Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig and Rogers Hornsby and all the rest We've got piotures of the suit@given to the kids. We gave uniforms, and their balls and thair bat and staged the regular leag&e and they'd play wery Sunday. f Q. Now is this in the 19408 and 1950s or how far back was this?

A. Thii must have been in the 1930s.

Q. So this was well before little league ar any of that stuff?

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A. Yes, it was. It was ten years before little league. It was a prelude I think to the, I think I can claim that it was a prelude to the little league. And you'll see pictures in there of them. So anyhow we have this. And through Arch Ward I asked to represent Golden Gloves downstate. No, not downstate. Represent Golden Gloves here. And we were the only weekly newspaper thanks to Arch. We were the only weekly newspaper in the United States that represented Golden Gloves.

Q. That meant you sponsored tournaments and that it drew kids from all over. People, men.

A. Yes. And we'd fill the Armory. There's pictures in here. We'd fill the Armory. And of course, then I had a prelude to that, a good one. Because I'd served on the Illinois Boxing. Commission. So I'm on the Ililinois Boxing Commission before we have Golden Gloves. And here's how this came about. Springfield had two newspapers. The morning paper, the Journal, which is still here. And the Illinois State-Register which was the evening paper. And it now had since been bought out by the morning paper, the Copley Press. So now it's the Journal in the morning and the Re~isterin the afternoon but all they do is change "good morning1' or "good afternoon." And so Frank Weir, my friend, was sports editor of the Illinois State-Register and Golden Gloves was his low. And he and I were great friends. And he was a good beer drinker. And you could have a lot of fun with him. Never bought a drink in his life. But he could drink all night and be on the job sober at 7 o'clock in the morning. Well his heart was broken when the Register sold out. And they dropped Golden Gloves. That's it. Now they dropped Golden Gloves because the Copley Press didn't need it, didn't want any part of it. So that made the opening and it gave us a chance to go in and carry on, representing Springfield, even though we were a weekly because there was a void created by the Register dropping them.

Q. Okay. Now were you still on the boxing commission at that time?

A. No. No*

Q. Okay. That's how you got involved.

A. I got my acquaintance in through that then. Q. Now this would have been . . .

A. That was in 1942 I think. I think 1942. I was on the boxing ccnhr~is~ionfrom 1937 to 1941 when they had a change of administration. I turned in my resignation to Governor Green. He was a Republican, I was a Gocrat. And the .guy called me, Green's office said, "Don' t turq iq your resignation right away. We're not ready to appoint, to sel~ctthe other guy yet." Said, "Hang on for a little while." It turqed out that Governor Green and I became very good friends. 1 look upon politics the same as baseball. When you get three strikes on you, you'go back to the bench or back to the outfield.

So that put us into Golden Gloves. And of course, I was benefited by having been on the boxing commission before that. And so then we carried on with Golden Gloves for years, As long as we had the Citizens Tribune, we had the Golden Gloves, And had the Golden Gloves J. R. Fitzpatrickin the Memoir wintertime - Archives/ Special and Collections they -had Norris the L Brookens kids Library baseball - University in of Illinoisthe atsummertime. Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick 37

And always some sponsorship depending on what the sport was according to that season.

Q. Were these things, the Golden Gloves and the kids baseball leagues, either or both of them, were they integrated? Were there blacks and whites participating?

A. Oh, we didn't draw the line at all. We didn't draw the line at all. Even on the Lumberjacks football team. We had Walter Wright and Slick Miller. And Walter Wright was a good football with SHS [Springfield High School]. And he played and he went along just with all the rest of the team. And they never saw any color line on hh at all. We'd have our parties and all they'd be there just the same. And the guy that we had helping us on Golden Gloves was Charley Lockhart, a negro who was captain of the fire department, a captain of one of the houses in the fire department, the colored one. And he was a good guy. And when we'd go to Chicago, he'd be with us. He'd be in the dining room with us just the same as anybody else. And the kids of Golden Gloves before always went out to the Grand Hotel on the south side of Chicago. And that was out in the Negro section. So we go up there and I said, "Now, Charley, I can get you into the Stevens Hotel. I talked to the management. They don't allow blacks. kt because of being Golden Gloves they will let you in and if you want to take the kids out there and you go out there, you're privileged to ga in. You're privileged to also to stay here in the Stevens Hotel." Because I knew the guy, Bill Doty, a short name. He said, '*we can make an exception for you just because you got a group, you've got a ball team." So I said, "Now, you can stay here but you go where the kids are going to be pleased. There won't be any girls they can play with here. They can play with them out there. There was only a taxi cab difference in the fare between here and there and you can come by in the morning and we'll all go out to the stadium. When you come to go to this stadium, come by here and we'll all go out together." So there was never any color line at any time called.

Q. Not by you but by the hotels there was.

A. Yes, Yes. But we were able to overcome that because of Bill hey, I think it was. And now then, in the Golden Gloves. I watched the judging very carefully. We had three guys, two whites and one black. One of them Qas Dutch Miller. The other wae Jim Kelty. And the other was Snowball Alexander, the colored guy. A farmer fighter. I said, "NOW, Jim . . .I1 Q. These were your coachee kind of? iA A. !Yes, They were judges. They were regular fight judges. Judges that ~'d use at the ringside. I said, "NOW, Jim, you can't and Dutch is the same wayt1 'I had them all three together. 1 said, "Yau can't judge where thede' is a mixed fight. If there's two whites, all right, because you've got a 1Xttla prejudice there. And any boy that goes in that ring no matter what his color is, he's entitled to what he wins. And nobody should take anything away from him." I followed that same practice on the Illinois Boxing Commission too. It came up a lot. And I said, "Snowball, you're Negro and you can't judge either because you won't give one of

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your own color a break. You go along with the gallery. l' So I said, "You can't judge a mixed fight and neither can you two guys .I1 For different reasons. So I was awful careful to see that.

Q. Who judged them then?

A. Oh, we had plenty of others.

Q. Oh, you had others. I see.

A. We had plenty of others, yes. We had plenty of others. And that situation come up many times but never did we draw the color lines. Never did we draw the color lines. I had Joe Louis bring his ball team down here one time from Chicago and I talked to the manager . . .

Q. What did he have, a barnstorming baseball team or something?

A. Oh, Joe liked to play baseball. And he had a baseball team that went all around the country. I said, "Why don't we bring them down to Springfield." And he now, I guess he was champion at the time. So anyhow . . . Q. You've got a picture up there with you and him. 1939 it's dated, I think. Is that about when it was?

A. Yes. He was champion then. Yes. Anyhow every summer several times we'd go out to, they had a color park out here. Dreamland Park. I called it Dreamy Dreamland Park. It's right now where Southeast High School is. All that territory. It was owned by a guy by the name of Amos Duncan. And they had a ball field out there. And we'd go out there, play. We'd take our white team and go out and play the whole black team. And everybody in the grandstand was black. And there was one particular guy was a good guy to have there. It was Chief McClain, deputy sheriff. And he'd have a pistol on each side and he was my friend. And he would maintain order. So he was indirectly my bodyguard. We'd put on a real skirmish out there for them. And the ones that were all ginned up, they'd want to come down on the field and get this Fitzpatrick because I managed it myself.

Q. Oh, you did?

A. Yes. And sa we had never had any trouble with the players but anyhow we would play out there often.

Q. Is that where you played Joe Louis' barnstorming team?

A. No, we bring Joe ~ouis'team down, this was typical, We found this was typical of a colored aggregation and a player. You couldn't depend on them at all. Either they wouldn't show up at the right place or the rigllt the or fully equipped or so on. And you always looked for something to l& missing. You could always be sure that something would be missing, somithing would be lacking. So I get a hold of Julian Black, Louis' manager. Said, "Julian, we want to get Joe Louis to come down here with his baseball teams." Said, "Sure, Fitz, I'll fix it.'' Well okay. The

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Heavyweight boxing champion Joe Louis visited springfield, 1939

Heavyweight boxing champion Joe Louis visited Springfield in the summer of 1939 when he brought his softball team, The Brown Bombers, to the capital city to play a game with the Fitzpatrick softball team. The game was played at Lanphier Park. With Louis, center, are from the left: Morris Kahn, J. R. Fitzpatrick, Mayor John "Buddy" Kapp and John MacWherter. Ballplayers in the rear include: John Ushman, A1 Bitschenauer, Louie Grandonne, Eddie Jansen, manager; Sam Heinen, Ed Janowick, Lou Torrey, Vic Bribal, Abe Bolt and Paul ~itschenauer. (Photo courtesy of J. R. Fitzpatrick)

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next word I got, "Got to cancel out. Joe sprained his ankle in a game in Pittsburg." They would let Joe play the first couple of innings. But when they had to win the ball game they'd take him out and bench him. He liked to play but he didn't have the talent to back it up. So I figured a11 this is just the blowof f.

So I said, "Julian, give me the name of the hospital, give me the name of the doctor, and give me the room number." Okay. So I found out what he told me was true. And I said, "Now we can postpone it." He said, "Well, yes. He can come down. He's got his leg wrapped up. He's on crutches." So he comes down and they told him to get ahold of me as soon as he got in town. Don1 t hear Erom him. I said, Where the hell is he?" It's one o'clock, two o'clock. And suppose to play tonight. I got a call. Joe Louis is down at the Brown Hotel. Well that was on Eleventh and Adams, that was the colored place. He's down here. "Get him on the phone for me right away. It's time he got down there." Why he had changed places and went to a place over on Washington Street. So I go down there. Here is Joe Louis in there with three other guys at the table, They're eating big steaks. And Joe, the world's champion, is eating his chili.

So I could tell we were in the right place because every Negro in town that had a mr was there. They had them parked on the sidewalks crosswise and every other way. You couldn't hardly get into the place. But they were there to see Joe Louis.

I said, "Naw, Joe, we're going to go to the radio station. Then -'re going to go to Lincoln's Tomb." Said, "Okay." I said, "Now this is what you say at Lincoln'e Tomb." He was portrayed as being dumb, They did that wisely to offset the mistakes of Jack Johnson, the smart aleck. Joe Louis was mart, had a good mind. He damn near repeated verbatim the things I told him to say as he went through Lincoln's Tomb.

But wetre at the radio station now before we go to the tomb. And Joe's on the air and they're trying to interview him, trying to get him in a place where he's glorifying himself. He wouldn't let that happen at all, Just made remarks all the way through.

No, we went to the tomb first. Then we go to the radio station. While at the radio station here's what happened. My wife calls Erom home. Said, "The bus broke down at Pontiac, Illinois." So I felt something was going to happen. That's ninety miles away. Joe said, "Oh, that1s terrible. Do you hava daylight savings time here?" ''Yes." "Maybe that gives us an hour break." See how smart he was.

So anyhow we go out andvset in the car and go out to my house to use a telephone there, We amere gqing down the street with a police escort. He said, "We them tufn. Have them take some left hand turns because if they all s'ee me %dawnhere they won't come to the ball game tonight." And all he ma doing was donating his services.

So anyhow we get out to the house. My boy Jim twelve years of age, picture over there, and he'd got his boyfriends with him, said, "Dad, is Joe Louis in town?" I said, "Yes, he is." "~ou'renot kidding me are

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you?" "No," I said, "you want to see him?" He said, "Yes." I give Joe the signal. He comes in, stops at the threshhold at the front door until Mrs. Fitzpatrick asked him to come in and sit down. Be sat down and he had the guy that was supposed to be a bodyguard, a little guy, black as midnight. And he was "St. Louis Kelly," he called his name. So I had my boy fix up a drink for Joe and he don't tauch no alcohol then. He fixes up a highball for Kelly. While they're both sitting together there on the settee, Kelly shakes his glass and looks at ~oe's and he says, "I sees I've got a little trimmings in mine."

So anyhow we got out to the ballpark, they're all awaiting for him. We drwe around. Hell, we thought we were driving around. Unbeknownst, hell they spotted Joe right away so we had to go in. And I was trying to stall because of the truck coming from Pontiac. Anyhow we had to go in. We had a preliminary game there that kept them entertained for a while. I think it was a black team we played, a local black team we played.

Anyhow we get inside and Joe goes down and autographs,on his crutches, autographs and all. And then we ran out of that other ball team so there was an interlude there. And so Joe was worried more than I was. But anyhow some of the guys had already seen Joe and were out at the gate wanting to get their money back. Some of the guys had called up to make reservations through me had seen that's the guy and that was all they cared about. So I said I couldn't stand it any longer. Father James Haggerty, he was there, he said, "~ud,quit worrying about it. They ain't got no other place to go. Just quit worrying. Just relax." Well, I couldn't. I made the announcement. "If the team is not here by 9:30, we'll refund all your money."

END OF SIDE ONE

Q. You'd just announced that if Joe Louis1 team didn' t show by 9 :30 you were going to give people their money back.

A. Most magnificent scene I'd ever witnessed in that place for the 9:25, the whole ballteam jumped over the dugout and was out on the field for action. And a lot of cynical guys said, "Ah, Fitzpatrick wouldn't be that generous. Ile knew they were going to be here. He just put on that play,'' But that's how close it come. 9:25.

Q. hlT, I saw some other pictures of you and Joe Lowig when you werejggparently an the boxing commission. I'd like td Low more about what'it meant to be on the boxing commission. What you had to do and some of the people you encountered there.

A. Well, there were three members on the boxing commission appointed by the governor, And they had to do with regulating everything in professional boxing and wrestling. Because about everybody knew that wrestling was a joke, a hypodrome, professionally. But on boxing it was serious, And it paid a salary of $4500 a year and expenses. And you could trmel almost any place you wanted to, One of the glorifications

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of it is if there was a fight in Los Angeles or New York or whereon, why they always gave you the courtesy of the commission row. And you got to meet the important people in the field.

Q. Did you take advantage of that, did you see some of that?

A. Yes, I did. My wife and I'd go to the championship fights every June or every summer in New York. And there we would meet Mike Jacobs, Jim Farley who had been chairman at one time. His brother Tom Farley. And now I remember one time through the grace of Tom Farley, I was down in the dressing room in New York in Yankee Stadium. The place was packed. And through the grace of Tom Farley my boy and I, then he was about twelve years of age, twelve or fourteen, we were down there with Joe.Louis and his manager, And he was fighting Louis Godoy. I think Louis Godoy from South America who couldn't speak English.

I remember Joe Louis said, "Mr. Fitz, Commissioner, I wish you would try to arrange to have my next fight in Chicago. That's where I won the championship. " I said, "I know. I was there." "Bur I 've got so many friends there I would like to have the next fight in Chicago and I wish you'd use your off ice as good as you can to arrange for that fight." It was things like that that really thrilled you. I met Jim Farley the first time down in Miami Beach.

Q. .And what was he?

A. He had been governor of New York. He had been chairman of the New York Boxing Commission before that and then he was governor of New York and he was Franklin D. Roosevelt's number one guy. (interruption) You asked me what the boxing commission was. They would hold the important fights in the Chicago Stadium. Some in the Coliseum.

Q. Professional and amateur?

A. Professional, All professional. We had nothing to do with amateurs. They would hold fights every Monday night out at Marigold Garden, that's on the north side. So we had a meeting once a week. So I'd go to Chicago once a week. (interruption)

Q. You were picking the judges. A. Selecting my judges and my referees . Supervising them. (interruption) Yes. Because 05 the crookedness in the fight game you have to be extra alerted. Like they say in the fight game you can't get the truth from anyone, They would lie for ten dollars rather than take twenty dollars for telling the truth. And there we had a lot of colored boys coming on. Aud I was particularly careful to sgs that .no one gave them anything and no one took anything away from them when they were in the ring. 1 l Governor Horner when he appointed me said, "NOW, remember, Bud . . . (interruption)

Q. You said there was so mch crookedness, what kind of crookedness was there? I mean fixed fights?

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Joe Louis & Harry Thomas weigh in Chicago 1938

World's heavyweight champion Joe Louis (center) weighs in at 202 112 pounds for his title defence in Chicago April 1st against Harry Thomas (left) who tipped the scales at 196. Illinois Eoxing Commissioner Chairman Joe Triner (right) supervises the poundage measure.

J. R. Fitzpatrick, commissioner, with his son Jim behind Jae Triner.

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A. Well, you'd fixed the referee because there would be betting on the fights. There'd be betting on the fights and you'd fix the referee and also you'd have to watch to make sure that they didn't put on too much tape or load it with lead, which they have done and killed a lot of guys. Just this last one just happened.

Q. I just read about that.

A. Yes. And those are things that you had to supervise. And of course, you had a lot of inspectors under you and a lot of assistants and so on.

Q. Were you aware of any attempts to bribe boxers, or did most of the bribes go to the officials--I mean the referees?

A. It would be mostly the referees and the judges, referees and the judges. And it didn't take you long to catch on. Horner, Governor Horner said, "Now, Bud, I have a lot of other commissions that are more important than the boxing cmmission. I've got the industrial and 1've got the commercial commission and the insurance and all. But anything that gets on the sport page is everybody's business. And I want to tell you this. That if you're ever guilty, I find you guilty of doing anything crooked that would embarrass me, I will haunt you from my grave." I said, "Gwernor, I'll take that," He had a good sense of humor. And he con£ ided with me quite a lot.

Q. You had been fairly good friends with him before?

A. Yes, I was with him before he was, I was with him when he first ran because he came down here out of Chicago and didn't think he had a chance because he was a Jew, but he had such a wonderful personality and with the Bull Moose landslide, why he was elected governor. And he never married. And he liked the women. He admitted that. And every time he'd see my wife and I together he say to her, "How can you live with the guy?" Bishop Griffin who was his friend, his picture is right there, he'd say the same thing. Well, they had this much in cummon on Christmas morning, They were the only two friends they had because everyone else had a family. So they in Chicago, sports editors and so on couldn't understand how I could be so independent in my vote. They didn't know how close I was with Horner and he'd back me up any place. The firat thing I had to vote on was to vote on a case involving King Levinaky, a Jew. King Levinsky had been suspended and Triner--a Bohemian, and a guy'd take a dollar or two--he brings back the question of the reinstatement of King Levinsky. He thought he had that all cooked up. Because here's the kid down from the cornfield, he didn't know what it was all about.

Q. qell, had Levinsky been suspended or something and he was trying to get ljack in?

A. Yea, he had been suspended. So, he gives me the song and dance that everybody's entitled to a second break, second chance and so on. I said, "No, I'll vote against. His time is through. He's had it. He's had it ." And I voted against him and oh, their eyes got big and so on because it looked like Triner had it all fixed and nobody would have the guts to vote against a Jew with a Jewish governor.

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First time I see Horner after that, I'm out at the racetrack giving an award to one of the race drivers for the fastest time trials. And I got word to come to the governor's box. "How do you like the job?" "Fine." "Had any meetings?" "yes .I' "Been to Chicago?" "Yes ." "Had any meetings?" Said, "Yes." "Had any controversies?" Said, "Yes." Said, "What was that?" I said, ''The reinstatement of King Levinsky ." "How did you vote?" Said, "I voted against him." "You think you're right?" I said, "I'm positive." "That's good enough. That's what I want you to keep on doing." I said, "I saw King Levinsky get paid $30,000 for going into the ring with Joe Louis before he was champion and he wouldn't get off his stool. And getting $30,000." Horner said, "Yes, I was there and I was the most ashamed guy in all the park. He was one of my own and he walks out and he won't fight." He said, "I'm glad you voted that way. But remember it isn't because I agree with you. It's because you thought you were right." You couldn't have it any more solid than that.

There were things like that would cme along in the fight game. There are no secrets. They can't keep their mouths shut. Each guy is a know it all and he's got to tell to the other guy what he knows. And the first thing it goes back to the guy who they don't want to know.

Q. Did you arrange that bout that Joe Louis asked about when you were in New York? He said he'd like to come back and fight in Chicago?

A. No. No. No, never got around to it. Never got around to that because I can't recall specifically that we did. I can't recall it. He had John Roxborough was his partner from Detroit. Roxborough was a gambler up there. Julian Black was a fellow about ninety percent white and he was in the real estate business, high class guy on the south side of Cnicago. So I saw Joe Louis later on at Hialeah Racetrack. By that time he had a stroke and he couldn't recall who I was at all. He was out. And he was in bad shape. And worse shape right now. But the boxing game was a lot of fun. It was very interestfng.

Q. Boxing was much bigger then?

A. Huh?

Q. Boxing was much more popular then?

A. Yes, yes, it was. That was before I guess the high price, I don't know. But anyhow it was very popular then. But I'd have guys come to me and said, "Can we do this here, can we do that there?'' Didn't take very long to know that they was no use coming around. Because It don't take long for your image to be created.

Q. I w~uldlike to hear about Jim Farlay,

A. This was back in the Depression in Mami Beach. There was a guy in our apartment by the name of Bradley that had been a theatrical guy. And he got drunk at a party and fell down and got paralyzed. And was in a wheelchair. And he just got back, well, he just got back from Mayo's and they give him six months to live. He said, "Jim Farley down here aver at Coral Gables, he's going to come over to see me." I saFd,

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"That's twenty miles away." He said, "He's says he'll be over to see me." Well, he drove up one afternoon at home, evening. And here's an official car, Washington, D. C. Get inside and motioned for us to come in. My wife and I, my boy and my girl, my daughter.

He said, "Do you know who this fellow is?*' Well, big tall guy. First time I met him. I said, ''That must be Jim Farley." Well, everybody knew that. .I said, "Mr. Farley, we've got a few things in common. My mother's name was Farley. My grandfather's name was the same as yours, James Farley." I said, "You were in the material business in New York," and I said, "I'm in the material business in Springfield, Illinois. You were chairman of the New York Boxing Commission and I happen to be on the Illinois Boxing Commission." "Yes. " I said, "You've got a son by the name of Jim?" He said, "Yes, I have." 1 said, "Here's my boy, Jim." "You've got a daughter that answers to the name I think Betsy?" "Yes, sir." "Here's my daughter Betsy."

Bradley intervenes, he said, "Now, never mind, Jim. He is not going to ask you for any favors." Brad says, "You know I've got it arranged when I die and it's not going to be very long. Jim Farley's going to be master of ceremonies at my wake." It come out in Time Magazine, I think it was Time. Here is the big setting, I mean Bradley throws his own wake. Jim Farley's there with the coronation. That guy's throwing a lively wake. That comes out with Jim Farley.

Q. And then you crossed paths with Farley other times too?

A. Now then there was his brother Tom in the New York Boxing Commission at the fight of Louis against Godoy, I believe. But we'd go to the fights that they'd have a fight there every summer, a foreign fight. No, Godoy, Godoy. He said, "Fitz, how'd you like to come down to the dressing room?" I said, "That would be great." He said, "Meet me at a certain place at 8 o'clock." Well, a guy tells you that in New York you'd figured he was just giving you the blowof f. He was right there waiting for us, took us down and escorted us through. And I was ever thankful to him for doing that.

I sat next to Walter Winchell at one of the fights. He had his secretary along with him, fed him all the stuff. And so by reason of that position you got to meet every guy that was in the sporting field of writers and so on. Like Joe Jacobs, manager of Tony Galento and he was no relation to the other Jacobs, Mike Jacobs. Mike fell in lucky. He was a ticket scalper. Joe Louis' guys couldn't raise $5,000 for him in Chicago When he was the Brown Bomber cmng on, Somebody said, "Go to New Yoyki" He called up Mke Jacobs. "HOW much do you want?" Said, "Five .ebousand." Said, Wme on." Said, "1'11 give you $15,000." Got his !meal ticket far the rest of his life,

Q. Bef~rehe was champion?

A. Yes. Got his meal ticket for $15,000, his meal ticket for the rest of hie life. So I knew Mike, I knew Joe.

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Q. They were promotors basically?

A. Yes. So Joe, the Jews got after him because he happened to be over in Berlin with the Nazi regime. He got to that point where, like you sing the Star Spangled Banner, they had to get up and say "Heil Nilter ." And they had a picture, Joe Jacobs there and all the Jews wanted to murder him. He said, "I would have liked to know what you'd do if you was in foreign territory surrounded by the enemy." So one thing leads to another.

END OF TAPE THREE

Q, Mr. Fitzpatrick, we talked at our last tape about the mine workers and the strike between Lewis' forces and other forces. Do you recall any specific incidents related to those things that happened in Springfield, to your knowledge?

A. It became a terrible turmoil and I knew most of the leaders in the Progressive Mine movement here. Most of them I sold materials for their houses too and most of them were built out on Starnes. And after our truck went to Taylosville, flying the American flag and was chased back with the machine guns waiting for them, immediately I lost, [the Fitzpatrick Lumber] Company lost the business, the material business of the Peabody Coal Company. That was expected.

It was a terrible turmoil in the city. And I remember one turmoil they had on the northwest corner of Sixth and Washington where they mixed in there with guns and knives and clubs and there was a lot of brutality there. And then another one was down at Sixth and Capitol Avenue at the Leland Hotel, northwest corner of Sixth and Capitol. It seems like this happened some gathering that was there. And Porter Williams, a plain clothesman, plain clothesman of the police force was shot and killed when he went in trying ta quell the turmoil. Port was a good friend of mine, we worked together at Vredenburgh' s ,

At that particular corner--it stands out--was the phenomenal feat performed by a fellow by the name of Harry Bradford who was connected with the radio station, and he was kind of a questioner on the street but he ,lid a phenomenal faculty. They calla him the! human fly. We witnee* him crawling up the sfde of the helpand Hotel with nothing beneath him and only hi8 hands and his fingers and his strength. And he climbed up the side of'the wall from th sidewalk all the ways to the top window.

Q. Oh, my.

A. Had na support or anything else. And I believe it was that gather%&, or out of that gathering, that this other turmoil happened wherm Port was killed.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

Q. You mean Bradford was climbing up to watch the . . . A. No, no. Bradford was just putting on a stunt. He had the ability to do this here. And that's what drew the crowd there. Because there was a crowd there, and that would be an unusual place for the miners to meet and it's my guess and my poor memory that that is the went that drew the crowd there. And when they were there from both factions, why they wound up getting into a fight.

Q. Were you there?

A. Yes. And Porter Williams got killed, He was a plain clothesman. They didn't know which side he was on. But anyhow they shot and killed him and he lost his life and died right there.

Q. And you saw that?

A. Yes. So those are some of the things that hit my memory.

Q. Yes. Again, that was in the thirties. That was before you had the Citizens Tribune, isn't it?

A. Yes. I had only the Fitzpatrick Lumber Company.

Q. Okay,

A. Now then, where do we go from there?

Q. Well, last time we were talking about--when we had to stop--we were talking about sports and sports figures. And you told me to ask you specifically about Jack Johnson and his connection with Springfield. The heavy weight champion.

A. Jack Johnson, one of the greatest heavy weight fighters of all time, was a black who came through here on a train from Galveston, Texas, and dropped off the train at the Alton Station just west of the Empire Hotel, Third and Jefferson. And went down to Johnny Connors and got a job as saloon porter.

Q. wow this was before he was champion?

( 3 A. @I, yes. This is where he got started, Nobody knew he was a fighter pat11 then.

Q. Thiis, muld have been? I'd like to try to pin that down.

A. be,-,This would be around the early part of 1920. Johnny Connors, who herd Men a flyweight Slghter, always interested in boxing and fight games. Every Saturday he'd throw a burlesque at a theatre, throw a burlesque show. He was on part of the red light district on Jefferson Street between Fourth and Fifth, the Empire Hotel. Johnny was little guy with er big heart. Anytime they asked him how was he, he'd say, he'd quip real fa~t,"Once younger but never better." And he would stage a fight on mery Saturday night. What did they call it? They'd all be

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blindfolded. I'll get the name in a minute. They'd all be blindfolded and the one who--you could swing on anybody who was in the ring and the last one that remained in the ring was the guy that won the fight. Battle Royal. The Battle Royal it was. Called the Battle Royal. Well, soon they found Jack Johnson, the porter, was winning all the fights.

Q. He was the saloon porter where?

A. At the Empire Hotel. Johnny Connors' hotel. And Johnny was tutoring him, tutoring hb to become a professional fighter. So anyhow they ran out of opposition because of Jack being so good. And he went on to the big time and got to be champion and quite a figure in New York. And this was in the early twenties. And was given to going for white men. Married, took one for, white gal for a wife. That killed him as far as his popularity was concerned.

He had ran out of all oppositlon and they dug up a guy by the name of Jess Willard, a big lumbering sort type of a heavyweight from out in Kansas or Oklahoma. And they conceived the idea that they'd have to take Jack and get the title away from him and let somebody have it because as it was nobody would go to see him. The animus was that bad against him.

So anyhow they matched him to fight Jess Willard in Havana, Cuba. And they were paying Jack so much money to take a dive and give up the title. And Jack and his wife were clever enough to know how much crookedness there is in the fight game as well as others. And they had a deal where he would stay on, he wouldn't take "the dive" until he got the signal that she had been paid the money. And the signal was to be her making her appearance on the runway going down to the ring. They tried their darndest to beat them out of the money. And she didn't make her appearance and that's why the fight had to go for twenty-six rounds. They knew then the case was hopeless. So they paid her the money. She appeared. And Jack took the dive, There was no match at all. Jack could have knocked him out any time he wanted to. But Jack Johnson took the dive. And that brought up a new champion and brought it back in this country where they went on with white guys and Jack was set on the out side.

Q. Now is that a story that you picked up when you were in the boxing commiss;lon?

A, No, this was before I was an the boxin& commission.

Q. Yes, I know but hwdid you hear about that?

A. We1.I-, I just happen to be s fan that's all. Happened to be a sports fan that's all. And it was common in the news, on the sport pages. And of course, I always had a flair for mostly anything in sports, particularly the fight game too. And so that was a matter of common record at that time. Q. bt those Battle Royals, what kind of guys fought in those? Just guys who thought they were tough around town?

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A. What Johnny Connors had here, they'd be mostly colored guys that would get five dollars for making their appearance in the ring. And they blindfolded them and all they could do was by feel to tell who else was in there and they'd swing right and left and any other way.

Q. How many did they put in the ring at a time?

A. 1 think about ten.

Q. Did they get good crowds for this?

A. Oh, hell, yes. And then they threw in a burlesque show along at the same time. He ran a burlesque show. Every Saturday was a burlesque show

Q, And a fight, and one of these fights. Where was it, what building?

A. That is the hotel owned by Johnny Connors on the south side of Jefferson Street between Fourth and Fifth. It was called the Empire Hotel then.

Q. Yes, you've mentioned that before.

A. And now it happens to be the Governor Hotel. It was last the Governor Hotel owned by Attorney Jack Weiner. But the territory is deteriorated very much but that was located at what you called the head of "the red light district.'' The red light district ran from Third and Jefferson down to Tenth and Jefferson. And the girls of illrepute and all, prostitutes and all, that was where the sporting element hung out. And you could get anything you wanted, anything you wanted illicitly or othem se . Q. I see. Now you've mentioned once before about what a tough audience Springfield always was for the New York road shows would come out and if they could even get mild applause in Springfield that would mean that they'd probably be wildly successful somewhere else. What was the entertainment scene lib around here? From what I heard, it was very lively and you got a lot of things on tour that came through, your big time shows and things. Is that the way it was?

A, It was a very lively place. It was different than any other city of its aize in the United States. The closest to it in temperament and in disctimination of being hard to satisfy was Denver, Colorado. Denver would be the second place they'd go to. Springfield had always had a pectriliart makeup. I think that's because of the liveliness of being the of being a village and being the capkt01 of a great state of is. And we ware the shadows of Chicago, So you'd bring down the and the top oqeo from the city of Chicago mixed in with the country villbge surrounded bre by rural district. The main industry we had was the C& mines and the state capitol. The coal mines have passed away. We still' have the state capitol and the other governmental village.

Q. But did you get big time vaudevillians like Eddie Cantor and people like that?

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A. They would bring the best, They'd bring the tops. They would bring the tops. The tops in the entertainment field did come to Springfield and appeared at the Chatterton's Opera House which was located on Sixth and Jefferson which was part of the red light locale. And so they would all cane here. They would all come here including John McCormick, the Irish singer, and all the rest of them. Eddie Cantor and all of them. Al Jolson and a11 the rest.

Q. Was it an entertainment that nearly everybody could afford?

A. Yes. Yes. They kept the price very menial and like on a Saturday afternoon they'd have a matinee, on a Sunday afternoon they'd have a matinee. And they had three different levels. They had the first floor, the balcony, and what they called Nigger Heaven. That's the gallery. I think they called that Nigger Heaven.

Q. But it was segregated so that the blacks could sit up in the . . .

A. No, no. No segregation. No segregation. But they'd go up there because of the price. Ihe poor people, they'd go up because of saving on the pyice.

Q. I see, So it was lively between all those . . .

A. It was alwaya a lively place, always a lively place that you could get anything you wanted, you could get anything you wanted in Springfield. And I think that was spiced a whole lot because of the influx of the state legislators. They'd come from, important guys from all over the state, particularly fram Chicago.

Q. Now I've always heard about this wide openness and how there was pretty open gambling and all that. When did all that and why did all that cwe to a close as far as you can recall? Or was it that wide open?

A. It was wide open. It was wide open. And the gamblers all paid off to the officials. The bookies were here and the bootleggers were here and they all thrived. And I'm trying to think when it all closed off.

Q. Was it some reform local politician or was it some pressure from outside?

A. gas, mycosle along and the first opposition the openness met was when Geqrge .Cautrakon elected state's aktorney. George wtla .a Greek. He was a lawyer as was his brother, Basil, 8-A-S-I-L, who now cmtinues as referee in bankruptcy. He got us into q crusade to close down everybody.

Q. Thik:~about when now? Would you say forties, late forties?

A. I would say this was in the forties, in the forties. And both Basil and George still live. And the peculiar part about it is their father financed their legal education and he ran a confectionary downtown and he was ane of the leaders in one phase of the gambling and selling punchboards and other minor forms of gambling. So he was always often

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embarassed about saying that the kids were financed out of gambling and now they're out fighting it. And George was sincere. I mean he was fullfledged in what he was doing. He didn't pull no punches. He went after them all. And later he was appointed circuit judge, So that I believe would be the point where gambling was turned off or impeded. And it never did openly recover again. Tne newspapers--you had the two daily newspapers the Register and the Journal and they were always ran by pretty liberal publishers. They never crusuaded much against it. And one time to the surprise of everybody, Springfield had an election on the liquor question and voted dry. That really was shocking.

Q. When was that?

A. That was in the twenties. That was in the twenties, I beliwe. And I believe, the guy that ran for mayor--I can't recall the guy's name--ran but anyhow they elected a dry mayor and of course that made a dry chief of police and all. And I would say . . . Q. This wasn't during prohibition or anything ltke that? This was . . . A. Oh, this must have been in the thirties. This must have been in the early thirties after . . . Q. Did they actually shut down taverns?

A. Oh, yes. After beer was legalized, after Roosevelt come back in in 1932. And of course the closest place they could go to get legal liquor was down at Thayer, Illinois. And that was before the days of the hardroad. Mow this must have been in the twenties. Let 's see prohibition came on in World War I, didn't it?

Q. I think.

A. 1 think it come on in World War I.

Q. Well, it was in the twenties that it was mostly in effect.

A. But I believe this was in the early days when Springfield was voted dry, they'd have to drive to Thayer, Illinois. And I know because my grandfather would have us kids drive him down there. And Johnny Connors opened up a saloon in Thayer, Illinois, That was it. Johnny opened a saloon ii~Thayer, Illinois, and all this tpafffc, all his customers were EromjSpxingfield who rode the dusty roads, That was before they had a hardfod going down there. So that might have started before World War I. That mfght have been befoye World War I, We'd have to check a little more on that. That might have been before World War I.

Q. Well, you say your grandfather, [John Keating] you used to take your grandfather there.

A. Yes, So that would be before, that I beliwe was before World War I, before national prohibition. And that's when the town was voted dry was before national prohibition. That was it,

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

Q. Okay.

A. That was it.

Q. Yes, I cant t imagine a dry Springfield.

A. No. Q. The Coutrakone you mentioned. Did you know them very well or . . .

A, Yes. I knew them very well.

Q. And you indicated that you really believed in George's sincerity and all.

A. Well, George was sincere in what he did. No payoff or anything like that. Jle just, that was what he believed and that's what he went and done. And of course I knew George and then on top of that. I served several times under Basil in his bankruptcy court of referee and receiver. her Poos was federal judge and Courtrakon come under him, Basil came under him, the bankruptcy comes under him. So I was first appointed receiver for the Paul Steele Lumber Company. Paul was a kid that worked, started in the lumber business working as a salesman for me right on this corner. And then next bankruptcy was with the supermarket. And it was tk supermarket on Wabash Avenue, a supermarket. And then another one was the Bowl, bowling alley at Second and Adams Street owned by a Jewieh guy by the name of Art Siege1 who lived in New York. And then later on the A. W, Sikking Appliance Company and I was receiver and referee for the St. Nicholas Hotel. The St. Nicholas Hotel became a victh of financial skullduggery from within. And it was the only hotel left in downtown. The Lincoln had gone through bankruptcy, so had the Leland Hotel. The St. Nicholas was there. And I went in and operateds it for fifty-three days.

Q. When was that now?

A. That was about twelve years ago I guess. Not knowing anything about the hotel business, they had allowed fifty-three days to be closed July 1. I went in and operated it, paid all the bills, some of the past due bills, reduced the number of employees from one hundred and eighty-three to a hundred and twenty-one and came up showing a profit. But the die was cast fo,r it to go into bankruptcy and it did. Some of those who were on $He inside, were in a contest to see who could steal the most. One of them apaned a place down the alley md used the food charged to the hotel to furnish the guy's restaurant dmthe my. And then the emplpyws saw that. They got into a stealing contest also. But in :&Imthat there with what I saw, I knew that place just happened to b~ b,iihWm of inside larceny and should have never been closed particuiarly at that time. So that was my connection with the Basil Coutrakons, the referee.

Q. Let me ask you, from looking at your old papers, both Main Street and the Tribune. You've been involved in some legal actions with the city obvious1y involving property around the Lincoln Home center. Could

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

you-if it's okay, I know it was in the papers-would you mind talking about that?

A. No, no. I Q. I couldn't quite follow the issues there. A. No. No. The Lincoln Home became a big issue involving our property and finances. In my school days living here in the shadows of the Wabash Railroad Round House, I'd walk past the place four times a day going to old St. Mary's just a block or so away at: Eighth and Monroe.

In the early days I bought a vacant lot on the same block on the same side just a few doors north of Lincoln's Home. At that time nobody paid any attention to Abe Lincoln. The only time they were there was when they were dragged by 8 visiting relative. We had the Citizens Tribune at 417 East Jefferson across from Johnny Connor's hotel, and that was a rented property, so w wanted to have a building and property of our own. And I go down to Ninth and Capitol and buy the Furlong residence located on the southeast corner of Ninth and Capitol. Furlongs had been the leading dry goods dealer downtown and they had a palatial home there but they had passed off the scene.

I moved the house from 9th, moved the Furlong house over to the lot right north of Lfncaln's Home. And fixed the basement, raised it, fixed the basement, for doctor's office. Dr. Paul Levis occupied it. The upstairs was for an office, occupied by Mercury Studio and the top floor was four apartments, residential.

Along; canes attention being paid to Lincoln's Home and right across the street from the home was a little building used by Anton Elshoff for his grocery store. Garvey, a man by the Garvey, had some foresight. He bought the Elshoff store, His partner was "Buncht' Bunn of the Marine Bank, now head of the Marine Bank. That's Willard Bum Jr. I think. And they come over to see me at the Citizens Tribune, wanted to know if we vlrauld oppose them having to convert it into commercial operation selling things connected with Abraham Lincoln and making a sort of a museum out of it. Said, "No." He went on then bought the property across the street north of Lincoln's Home. Converted it into a museum and gift shop. They hsb b~ughtthe house north of the store on the west side and convertd~'ithto a Lincoln attraction.

Q. This was all in the twa#~ti&s?

A. No, thls would be back in the forties, This would be in the forties I think'. ' %is would be in the forties . I Q. There was no big Lincoln trade . . . A. ~obad~paid any attention to Lincoln up to that time. Nobody paid any attention to Lincoln until after World War 11. They began to commercialize on it and they finally had the street closed to regular traffic and they utilized that for a purpose when they were raising, dismantling and then raising and rebuilding the old court house. They

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used it for the art festival, they used that street for the art festival because they no longer, at that time, could use the court house lawn. So it mrved them very well but they give the excuse that they were trying to eulogize Abraham Lincoln. When they did that, now the fellow that owned the property right next to me to the south between our property and Lincoln's Home and Gamey's, wanted to sell and came to me and I bought it off of him. So I had two pieces of property adjoining. Now the busses come up the alley, traffic now is beginning to clog the Lincoln's Home because of the school busses from around the state and so on.

Q. Now were you right directly north of Lincoln's, the two you had were right . . .

A. Yes. I had lot number three and number four. And Garvey had lot number five and number six. And Lincoln's Home would be lot number seven and eight. So the busses would crowd the alley so you couldn't get through there. The blockade had you so you couldn't get in from the front or the rear. So as far as the regular commercial use was concerned, they said we're out of business. Now we too would go into a museum. So we proceeded on that.

But the city hall, the mayor, Nelson Howarth--he and I had been friends up to that time--said, "No. You can't do that .It I said, "How's it happen that Garvey can do it right next to us and right across the street?" He said, "Well, you can't do it." And an open meeting at the city hall when I'm arguing my case, he said, 'Wr . Fitzpatrick, you might as well know it. We're going to take your property away from you." And he proceeded to get a grant from the federal government to create a parking lot right east of the alley of the same block. Dismantle what houses are there. And acquire the property that I had. He wasn't interested in acquiring any other property that was there except ours, so you can see where the target was.

So in the, I knew his wife, Mary, very well. And Nelson had had a lot of fistfights with his wife. Mary told me a time or two he knocked her down. And that was common knowledge. There was no real secret about that. He had kind of a fiery disposition and envious of anybody that was successful or was doing all right or had some money. So in the open meeting, he said, "Mr. Fitzpatrick, you might as well know, we're going to take that property of your and your wife's away from you." Well, he gave me an opening, I said, "Well, I dsn't see Nelson why you injected the name of,my wife into this deal, but $eweyou have let me say. I've bee blqeeed wit& a very happy marriage w%& the only woman I ever marad. And at no time in our blissful 16fe have the neighbors ever had to summon the police to save her from .ibrutal beating from her husband. Can you say as much?"

Q. Oh, boy, In a public hearing?

A. Yes. And on the air too. And on the air, too. So I went on and he proceeded ro go have it acquired. But got voted out of office the next time because the Tribune and others oppoedd him.

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Q. This would have been in the fifties now probably?

A. Yes. And he was defeated and he come along. They bring suit, condemnation suit had already been entered by him. And we're opposing the condemnation suit. And it goes through, anyhow and it's going through, forced by them. We fought it all the way. And finally we lost and the court decree was we would have to sell to the city. And they aet a price of $220,000 on the property,

Q. The two lots?

A. 'ha lots. A hundred and ten apiece. Bill Telford now is mayor, he calls me and said, "Now Gamey will sell his property next door for a hundred and twenty apiece. He's closer to Lincoln's Home. We'll give you a hundred and ten.

END OF SIDE ONE

A. The court signed the decree that it would be $220,000 plus interest from the time of the decree until the time of the payment. I had a lot to do with the election of Telford to be mayor. He had been coroner for sixteen years and it looked at that time they were going to abolish the rule of being elected. They were going to be appointed.

Q. Who?

A. The coroner.

Q, The coroners. I see.

A. So that made Telford shaky. We backed him.

Q. Now this was when you still had the Tribune or . . .

A. Main Street.

Q. Main Stfeet. Okay.

A. Now I'm aver to Main Street. Now I'm over to Main Street. So in four years Telford did nothing to advance the property settlement. He runs again and calls and says, "Will you do the same thing for me you did four yeqrs ago but this time I'll pay the postage?" What happened before wp8.nha.z printed, He called and said, "How much will it cost to get',&,mb wpUs aE that Ma Street yak just p~inted?~"What do you wan 3. ;''%hemferZn He mid,*he g~r.we friends vba are going to inail them to some peop%eqW"I said, "Never mind. We'll see that wer~bdyin Springfield gets a copy, at our expense.''

He got elected to the surprise of a lot of people. Four years later he's running against Nelson Howarth. He calls up, Telford now. He says, "Will you do the same thing for me that you did four years ago but this time I'll pay for the postage." Well, it's now gotten up to 6.6.

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I said, "I didn't know it got that high, Bill." He said, "That's what it: is but X'll pay the postage this time." I hesitated. I scratched my head. L said, "Yes, I will." We did.

Nelson Howarth got on the air at 11:30 that night talking to the public acknowledging defeat. And he said, "I had this race won till Bud Fitzpatrick's Main Street came out. And that's what beat me." Telford never did me one favor while he was in office. I never asked him for one favor. If a guy's a true friend he figures he comes to you and says, ''What can I do for you." But I didn't want anything. Anything I'd get would be looked upon as a trade. Time went along then I get to pushing the deal because this had gone long enough.

Q. Now were the proceedings about the two properties still going on?

A. Yes. Ye$. But it had been adjudicated by the decree of Judge Ben Frietlwin by that time. The price had been set and all. Okay. Now there's a picture on the wall of my grandson who went to college at Macomb. And he studied law enforcement and he wanted to be a policeman. He said, "Now, Cramps, stay out of this deal. Leave me handle this by myself." He got to be a policeman and he got the worst assignment there is in Springfield, from 3 to 11 from South Grand Avenue all the way out to the Badlands out there. So that was under Telford. I never once asked him for a better promotion for him or anything.

Q. What1a his name?

A. James Burton.

Q. Okay.

A. Well, I start puehing now after he gets elected the second term. I said, "I want to be rid of that damn place on Lincoln's Home because I'm handcuffed. I can't do anything with it. I can't rent it, I can't use it, And it's costing me money." He calle up one day says, "Now you can get your check next Tuesday for $220,000 but you've got to knock off the interest." Up to that time I wasn't even thinking about the interest but time wae going on. But I did say, "Why should I knock off the interest, Bill? Don't mean anything to you. The court has made a decision and it isn't your money and it is my money. And why would you want ta withhold the interest?" I figured right quick it's around $2,000.

"Wejl, thet's th. way It is and that' s the way it' s going to be and if you want to take it, all r$ght. If you qon't, do whatever you want to." Because up to that tima \ll~had had no plprds about anything. Then I could eea the envy in ,ha43 mkeup. I stdied. Finance Commissioner Jim Dunham said, "Bud, don' t take it. You're entitled to it." But I realized the,un~ertaintyof life at any age. And I said, "Well, I'll take it. f 'li take it.'' So he beat me out of $1900 just by that decree. That shows what a louse he is. In my book, and 1'd say it right in front of him, I know of no bigger ingrate than Bill Telford. I'd say it if he was right here. He knows I do too. So that is part of the history of Lincoln' s Home.

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But now better than that. I went over to the northeast corner, southeast corner of Ninth and Capitol, took the Furlong property and built a building over there for the Citizens Tribune, 40 x 150. Along comes a guy, calls me one Saturday night and gives me his name, he was from New Pork. He wants to put Robert Hall clothes in there. We had dinner. I said, "Do you want to take a tour of the town." He said, "Mr. Fitzpatrick, I know the town better than you do. We've cased everything. That's the place we want. Here's our proposition, I'll be back in ten days and we' 11 make a deal. I know you' 11 accept it ."

We leased that to Robert Ball ten years I think. Maybe five or three. They nwer got off the ground because they were all cash. And they didn't know that Springfield was different than any other place they'd been in, This was their one hundredth store and they had all been highly euccessful. And they had cased the town real carefully but to prove again it's made up of different makeup, they come in the end of eight years and said, "We want to close out. we'll pay you the unexpired part of the rent until you find a comparable buyer." And we did.

So now then I rented it to the Secretary of State's office. And now as I'm getting off the boat in Vancouver, my wife and I, in front of the hpr&s Hotel, around the corner was a museum. A wax museum. And I went in and saw it. I said, "Abe Lincoln's revered around the world. We're in the shadows of his home. And we'll put an Abe Lincoln's Wax Museum on that property there." So that's how we happened to get in the idea of the wax museum. And it's the only one in the world devoted exclusively to one man. So that change of events that come out of the Abraham Lincoln fracas.

Q. That's interesting. Lots of things there. Well, it's getting late. There's one story I want to get gack to that you told me once off the tape and that had to do with your recollections of the race riot around Springfield when you were a young man, twelve, thirteen years old at that time, right? Could you tell me about . . .

A. 1908. It was in the summer of 1908. August. And Springfield's makaup,is part of the racial discord that canes up from the south. We'te made ~tpthen of a lot of Kentuckaans that come across the Ohio River into southern Illinois and in a change of administration and get a job in Springfield, State House. So they'd have Kentucky Day here every year, SCI we had real good sprinkling of the stigma that had come over from the racial bigotry of the South.

ThelNegro at that time worked as janitors md menial jobe, maids and so on lib"that. And a few of them worked 'in,She coal mines. There was a lady an,north First Street: &o had an illicit deal with the mrilkman and her ihueband finally caughi up with her ,. PUsd they cover her tracks. She cla#med that she'd bean raped by a colored guy who brake into the house. Oh, they got a lot of newspaper publicity about it, stirred up the populace pretty good,, And they take and arrest the guy, the colored guy. The white man's part dldn't come to the surface at all. But it was enough to rile up the people.

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And about that same time--the ignorant uneducated black guy by the name of Joe James, real black--at four o'clock one morning breaks into the Ballard house on North Eighth Street near North Grand, climbs through the window and molests the daughter while she was in bed. Her father jumped up, chased the guy down the street. He pulled a knife and stabbed him to death.

Q. James stabbed the father?

A. Jaws stabbed Mr. Ballard, the girl's father. They found James hiding in the bushes over in Reservoir Park which is now Lanphier Park and they took and landed him in jail. That made tension rise a good deal higher. That summer I was working, I was out at my Uncle's farm just vacationing but working. Picking strawberries and so on in the hot sun and we came in in his buggy and we saw them milling around the country jail, because of Joe James.

Only a few people at that time had automobiles and Sheriff Werner knew that he was in jeopardy and he arranged with the sheriff of Bloomington to have the man taken in there. He searched for an automobile and there was only two in Springfield at that time, Vredenburgh's where I later worked for, had one and Tom the owner was about ready to let him have it when his cousin Will said, "Don't get into that. It'8 too tight." So they go down to Mr. Lopar, who had the restaurant there near Fifth and Monroe Street right north of Thrifty's. And he innocently let him have the car and the driver to transport Joe James to Bloomington. The word soon got back and then . . .

Q. You mean they did it. They succeeded at it.

A. They took the prisoner over there. A guy by the name of Humphreys, Slim Humphreys, whose descendent now runs Humphreys Market out here, and a gal by the name of Kate-I'll get it in a minute. She was a notorious gal. Kate Howard. Her.hueband run a wallpaper place at Eighth and Adams Street and he was highly respected. But she was kind of loose with the boys along what we called the levee. The levee was Washington Street all the way east of the railroad to the Wabash Railroad.

And so they organized a gang early in the evening, merched through the court house yard over to Loper's restaurant, threw a brick through the window, chased the customers out, set the place on fire, took the automobile setting out in front, turned it over on its side and set it on fire, And Kate Howard dug into the streetcar tracks to dig out the brioks that they used to throw at the premises on the inside. They then proceed back to the levee and walked down pillaged all the pawnshops and all; the other places, steraling rwolvers and anything else that was loose ,in the place.

r b Q. i &$s was a big mob now I guess?

A ! Ye. They went down the colored section unfortunately and caught, any! the they caught a colored guy they wanted to lynch him. They kllid several of them. Threw their bodies in the box cars on the Wabash Railroad tracks and they were shipped away and nobody ever knew who they

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had gone. They went over in the shadows of the state house, Spring and Canady. And a man over there by the name of Burton, highly respected black fellow, 1 think he was a barber, married a white woman. And they took him outside, strung him up and lynched him right outside his house right in the shadows of the state house.

And there were many, many places where they went in and the people that were white would put a white cross on their front doors. Those were down in what they called the Badlands. The white cross was a signal that there was no Negroes there and they'd be left alone. Joe James was tried, convicted and hanged in the county jail. I don' t know what happened to the case of the other guy with the white woman that first started it all.

Q. You said you saw that first mob milling around when you came with your uncle. Did you see any more, did you see any of that that you just described?

A. Not in action. Not in action except across the town, you'd see those like around here that were serving as butlers and so on in the rich part, they were put under cover by their own boss. But you'd see them kind of skirting down to get in under cover and right across the street was a colored fellow who married an Indian woman. And he went under ewer for a while and they were a good respectable couple. But that wrrs the extent of what I saw.

Q. Did the thing as you recall just sort of peter out and quiet down by itself or did anybody take some . . .

A. Oh, they brought in the national guard. They brought in the national guard inmediately and spread it all around the town and it was here was a week before things quieted down. And so that's how, that's why it quieted down.

Q. But you don't recall any community leaders or clergymen or anything taking any or making any public kinds of statements or anything like that? I just wondered. I mean sometimes those things don't heal too easily unless some people take some leadership.

A. No, No. It was, here it was just settled of its own momentum.

Q. Did anybody or *eye any kind of charges ever pressed against Humphreys or for his . . .

A. No. No. No,

Q. Tha&% interesting,' Listen, we've- been at it for a little wer an hour here. So I think we've got some god things in here. It's just about lunch t he.

END OF TAPE FOUR

Q. We've cwered a lot of territory here and I want to go back and fill in some gaps if we can. Last week you talked about the race riot and

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related events around town. And started to tell me about Ku Klux Klan activity in Springfield over the years. And I'd like to hear more about that. What was it like? What form has it taken?

A. The Ku Klux Klan that came immediately after World War I had no connection with the race riot of 1908. At that time it was the Negro that was the target of the bigotry. But after World War 1 the Ku Klux emmerged, This city, not the county, was made up of a lot of those that followed the Lincoln Trail coming up from Hodgenville, Kentucky through Indiana and southern Illinois. And they carried with them the bigotry that emanated from the South mostly on religion.

The Ku Klux had a hatred on religion, the difference in faith. And seemed to be particularly against the Irish who were emerging from the coal mines and the railroads and from the common labor status up to something more important. But the Kentuckians generally were good citizens. They, of course, had stopped off in southern Illinois before they got the nod to come up to Springfield and take some political job at the state. And they would have a Kentucky Day every summer. And they drew a good gathering. It finally passed away and it is no more.

But in the Ku Klux days they used Springfield for kind of a central meeting place for those from central Illinois. And it was common for excursion trains to come in to the railroad stations like particularly the Alton Railroad at Third and Washington. And they would drop off and they formed their parades here after joining with the local leaders. I can recall one day they had formed their parade at the Lincoln Camp Grounds, the camp grounds for the Illinois National Guard out northwest. Q. Now these were actual Klansmen or just a few . . . A. No, these =re Klansmen in uniform. In uniform, they proudly paraded with their uniforms around the town, and they caused quite a stir when they'd have their parades around the business district.

Q. This was soon after World War I?

A. Yes. I remember one day, I was out in the northwest part where the parade was and I cut through in my automobile, cut through the parade thinking nothing of it at all. And the first thing you know I was stopped by the ones a block away and they were, looked like they were about ready to lynch me. And one of the guys after I talked to him and found out he was an acquaintance of mine, a guy by the name of Fagan, a left-handed Irishman who was on the police force. So they turned me looge.

The e me a fellaw in Springfield named T. P. "Pete" Sullivan who later becwf the director of highways for the State of Illinois and head of the1 penirent iaries and a11. But he started here in Spr ingf iel d from the nor h side. He and I were close friends. But he had strong Irish attt tude. So he and a friend, Art McDonald, another big guy, in a tavern, Jimmy Connor's tavern across from the post office, said, "Tell you what we do. Here canes two of them coming here. We'll make them pass in between us. You hit one and I'll hit the other." And they did. Everything

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was all right as far as I was concerned until later on when they're over at the railroad station around Fourth and Washington ready to leave town. And the guy spottad Sullivan and they corraled him and had him in the middle of the street and ready to beat the hell out of him.

Q. Had they been in costume when Sullivan hit him?

A. Yes. Oh, yes. Yes. And still in costume. He said, "Well, you're all brave men, I'll tell you what I'll do." They had him in a circle, Said, "I'll fight you, all of you, one at a time."

Q, Sullivan said this?

A. Sullivan said. He's crafty. And as they had their heads together trying to make up their minds, he put on a football tackle and ran right in between them and escaped through a livery stable that had an upstairs and they couldn't find him. So that was the local brush.

They were strong politically. They were .strong politically and the elite, the bankers and so on, the rich ones in Springfield at that time, were naostly those that had a British descent. And they were the ones that ran the town. But they never engaged in anything like getting down as low as the Ku Klux even though they might have been insensitive because the hardest thing to do in Springfield was to have a Catholic be elected to city office. They might be elected to county office because that brought in the farmers and so on.

And before the turn of the century my grandmother's brother Pat Murray, a farmer, was elected sheriff of Sangamon County on the Democratic ticket. Because of his race and because of his religion it kind of stood out in history, but they had a chance on the county ticket but no chance at all on the city ticket until [as] I explained a while ago, they come along with George Doyle, Percy Darling, and others like that.

Q. You said the west slders wouldn't join the Klan but they might have been symparhet ic?

A. Yes. The cich on the near south and the south and the far southwest. And they of course were in sympathy with them, the bankers and so on, but they were way above the level socially of associating with them.

Q. Well, did the Klan ever actually do any of that stuff that you always hear about? Burn crosses on lawns or lynch people or harass people?

A. No, there was no particular violence ~b*tthey engaged in here. It was just a case of an exhibition, bf showing their strength through theiq uniforme and so on. But they nwer g~tdown to where they hurt anybdd y .

Q. But most of their language at that time was directed against Catholics and Irish rather than blacks?

A. That's right. The blacks were almost totally immune from the deal. And let's see.

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Q. You just made a reference to a George Doyle. And I forgot anything about him before. You may have told me about him off the record. Was he one of the first Catholics to get elected in town or something?

A. George Doyle lived right across the street. And he was a nice mild innocent sort of a guy but had politics in his mind and had the idea of running for city commissioner. Now this was in (pause) this was up in the forties because we organized the Citizens Tribune in 1936 so we backed him to the surprise of a lot of people. And he got elected. He was a good honest guy but hew nothing about handling money, was always broke but was about as honest as anybody in city hall. So he was the first one. Mter that came along Percy Darling who was quite a character, a clown and a good actor. He worked in the coal mines. He got--1 think maybe I told you this.

Q. No, I don't remember.

A. We were sitting in the St. Nicholas Hotel with J. J. McCarthy and Red--1'11 give you the name in a minute. And Jim Cornwall's wife was secretary to Governor Horner. That had to be in the thirties, late thirthb.. I said, "What the hell, you can elect anybody in Springfield with the right technique." I said, "You could wen elect a dog catcher."

So we picked up Percy Darling, who was part of our Lumberjacks entertainment with baseball and football and any of our social functions. So we picked up Percy, dressed him up. He ran for city commissioner. Eberybady thought it wers a joke and the guy that really hated him was hi1 Smith who was the publisher of the Journal-Register. And hi1 didn't know he was doing him a favor. He showed Percy in a prize fight garb and in a pose like a fighting pose and Percy took and capitalized on it and said, "Yes, I'm fighting for the people's cause."

Percy was elected and turned out to be one of the best officials that department ever had. He was in charge of Health and Safety, I think. Percy, when it come time in the campaign we said, "~ou've got to go out. You can't let them know you're a Catholic. You go on out to Reverend Hildebrapd's Third Presbyterian Church. You be out there every Sunday morningr*' I didn't have to tell him to get up to the front row. He'd be there anyhow. So he wae out there most every Sunday morning during the campsign posing as a member of thq Sird Presbyterian Church. When it come time for him, when he died suddenly getting ready for the next campaign. & had a heart attack out here near Williamsville and went in the dit~band they found him dead.

A. Wrling . And so he was in three different , everything about him was colokful', He was in three different funeral parlors before he finally got dowg' to Kirlin & Egan where he kas buried from. When it came to his funerdSqtheyhad named about everybody important as honorary pallbearers. I wa$ate of them. I can recall standing in front of the funeral parlor as tk*y was bringing him out. Right along side me was Tom Vrendenburgh with*his--socialite he was. We11 they' re rich familiea in Springfield . And Tom kdw was my boss at one time said, "What do I do?" I said, om,

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you just watch me and I'll watch Pat Cavanaugh over here. He knows all the rituals and you do what I do."

So anyhow the church was filled. You didn't how whether it was a prize fight or a religious ceremony or what. Guys in sweaters and everything else, ex-pugs, and writers and so on. Bartenders were there. Bootleggers. And so he, Father Tarrant give him a wonderful eulogy. One of the things, I remember he said, "This man had a big heart. And he had no education, but too often education serves as hypocrisy instead of true meaning .I1 Some thing like that.

When we got outside Pat Cavanaugh said, whispered to me. We were lined up. He said, "Well, the guy did a pretty good job for what he had to work with," (laughter) So in the deal, I find I'm surrounded by the names I mentioned, the bartenders and the prize fighters and the pugs. And one of them, and Dewey Griffin, I be1 ieve his name was, he' d been a pug and he didn't want to miss anything so instead of standing up on the kneeling bench, he stood up on one of the pews. He didn't want to miss anythidg .

So anyhow finally Edmund Burke comes along. I said, "Well, at last we got some dignity in our group." So that was the colorful Percy Darling. Since then, since Kennedy was elected, religion no longer comes up at all, Before that it was paramount in every election, city, state or county around here. "What's his religion?" If he's a Catholic, he had two strikes on him.

Q. Well now it's gone the other way.

A. Gone the other way. Five guys in the city hall today ate all Catholics and nobody pays any attention to them. All five of them. And so that has been changed I believe because of the election of Kennedy who a lot of people were afraid of he'd take orders from the Pope. And he didn't.

Q. You know it is unusual, isn't it, for a city in this area to be so heavily Catholic? I mean I grew up in Chicago and that's a heavily Catholic... city and I get the same feeling around here that sometimes as a A. It's just . . . Q. Well, how 4i.d ah* happen?

A. f t jw t changed so*'aud.denJ y . I think it happened tbia way. I thing, X think the leaders in the protestafr't churches had a fear of the power of the Pope. And John F. Kennedy--end I had admf red him for this--@ toak no orders from the Pope. &Ithey noticed that and then they saw that what they'd been fed was wrong.

Q. But I meant in Springfield, You know, I suspect there are more Catholic schools per capita than you find in a town of this size normally.

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A. Yes, that is right.

Q. I wonder how the settlement was that it became Catholic so much, you know. I'm sure there are more Catholics in Springfield than in Decatur.

A. Oh, yes. And that's because of politics and that' s because of the I state house. And the Irish, of course, come down from Chicago and some I of them stayed. And they were brought up from Cairo and Shawneetown and so on. And they stayed. They have a love for politics. That would be almost wholly responsible for it.

Now, a peculiar thing about it is this. That when Kennedy ran for president, Father Brockmeier was pastor of the Sacred Heart Church and a close acquaintance. He's German. And he was, my sister told me, he was around town betting against Kennedy being elected. I saw him on a corner downtown and I said, "Is that true?" He said, "Yes, I just got through betting Johnny so and so at the post office. I'll bet you five." I said, "No, I won't take the bet. I was just curious. I want to get my mind settled," He said, "I don't think it's time to elect a Catholic president in this country."

I saw him a£tex the election at the Leland Hotel, outside of the Leland Hotel. And he wrote, he was editor for the paper, for the Western Catholic, a weekly publication, church publication. I stopped and said, "Father, did you get fhrough paying off all your bets you lost Qn ~ennedy?" He said, "Yes, Z did." He said, "I was misguided on that. I was relying upon that Louisville newspaper." That's where he came from.

By that time Father Ray O'Connor was a lively guy around town. Lively at the time, belonged to the Illini Country Club, good golfer and all, just kind of a free wheeling guy. I said, "I know the church. I know the church would rather not have a Catholic president." And I got that from Roger Faherty who told me he just got back from a luncheon where Cardinal Spellman d New York was there and said, "NOW Fitz, don1t get overboard, Kennedy doesn't have a chance." The campaign's on and I just got back from NAw York- And Spellman is talking against Kennedy. Spellman was the closest thing to the Pope.

Then O'Connor was there and I said, "I can understand why the church don't want one of their own elected to high off ice. If a guy's name is Sullivan or Fitzpatrick or Hannigan or so on, it's easily detected. But if it's Carpentier or Hughes or one of those names, it isn't so obnoxious. And I knpw that you priests, wearing the collar thrive on going over to the fellow who might be a ihn Kluxer, and you walk in aeking for a favor and eynr,afraid to say no to you because he:thinke yau're representing all 1hedzhters that are of h5s same Eaith '%a he yields to you. But if the *' s Ir ish that I urn& there-including Fitzpa trio&--you could canelin f could say, 'I&,Pather, you know you're not entitled to it. You1& not going to get it. "' So he doesn't have the same leverage on me as it would have if I was a non-Catholic. Roger Faherty whose name I mentioned before when they had a mayor in Chicago way way back. I can't recall the name right now. It was before Kelly. He said, the priest come in Monday morning, he'd say, "Father, what law do you want me to break today." So that was one of the gadgets chat they saw from the

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS inside that entered into the picture unseen by many people. So those are the changes that have taken place as far as religion and politics is concerned .

Q. I want to go back to a name that you talked about I think in our first meeting and I didn't ask you more about this famous name around town that in a sense helped you start the Citizens Tribune, It's Willis J. Spaulding. Now I wonder what your memories of him are. You know, what kind of a man he was.

A. Willis J. Spaulding was a great public official. He had been in the produce business on Fourth and Monroe and he was a civic leader on things civic and particularly politics. He ran for city commissioner and was elected and re-elected and re-elected. And he played his part so sincerely that he would walk down a street during a campaign with his head down, not speaking to anybody, spent no money, and they'd say, "Well, there goes Willia. He's in deep study as to what is good for the city of Springfield .I'

He was clever. He was a clever politician. But he didn't exhibit it as widely as might be expected of a guy that successful. But I knew him very well. I was invited to go with him and the members of the city council. That's when they called it, no. No, because of the lumber business. He invited me to go with him out to survey the land around Sufar Creek that's now is turned out to be beautiful Lake Springfield. He s responsible for giving us Lake Springfield, one of our greatest assets. And he come along and for no reason at all except that maybe that they thought he had been in office too long, he ms defeated by one of our former football players, John Hunter. John Hunter was a good athlete. He 14735 a stubborn Englishman, good pitcher and a good hitter and played football and played baseball against us.

Q. Yes, you how, we've got a lot on that.

A. You've got that?

Q. Yes. Yes, He played for the Empire Hotel?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you recnt&ted him to the Lumberdacks, right?

A. Yes, When he had rm other place to go. He went to the Amy.

Q. Yes,' then you said he, I want to ask you about that, You said he served P Tong time into the seventies, didn't he, with the city?

A. p did, He served and he served, I would think twelve years at leasf. Two together, then one he was out--beaten by George Oliver. I told igqithe etory of Joe Gerzin.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. 'Fitzpatrick

A. And" Oliver didn't like politics. Took on the Holiday Inn franchise. And Hunter come back and was reelected. By that time there was a feud be tween us which I explained, And then for some reason he got on the air the Sunday before, I'm repeating now, he made an attack on Bud Fitzpatrick and the Citizens Tribune and died of an aneurysm the following Tuesday as a young man. I gave him the house, well I told you that.

Q. Yes. Well, back to Spaulding. It's really interesting to hear how much you obviously respected him and yet your paper started in reaction against the utilities business.

A. That was the place we differed. That was the place we differed and that's what made the Citizens Tribune. Fargot that. Spaulding came along with the idea of buying out the private utflities, Central Illinois Light, and the price was $7,200,000. And we ran some cartoons and a lot of editorials against it. And one of the main items that stood out in the campaign was, coincidently, that was the same price the Secretary of the Interior for the state U.S., Seward, paid for the entire state of Alaska. So we showed a picture of a shabby, brokendown utility plant as against the big space of Alaska. And the proposition we hammered on, why eliminate competition especially to the private utilities and both daily newspapers strongly favored what Spaulding wanted. And we were on the other side, just started. Just started because of the issue. And we won three and a quarter to one. That made the Citizens Tribune strong enough.

Q. Did it wreck your friendship with Spaulding?

A. Yes, it did. It did. From there on out we didn't even speak to each other. But he was sincere in what he was doing. Today we have a situation where nobody talks anything about it. We have no competition be tweeqa the private and the local utilities, There made a deal where the city hall takes Springfield and the utilities, private utilities, take the surrounding territory for themselves without any competition. So the competition has been eliminated in the community, in the territory. The city hall having the city and the private utilities havlng the surrounding territory.

Q. We're getting near the end. There are a couple of little things I want to ask you about that you've mentioned before. One was a little thiqg, a phraw you mentioned a lot earlier about "defense homes'' during the wag, Was that a government program wb*at they subsidized builders to bui d &@sing fox people? 1::;: . * A. War I1 cane on and houses--building had stopped. And the gove)rment come~alongw%th &I idea of buil,ding defense homes and of course werybody in the material business was hungry for business. Materials become scarce because of the needs for the army. And so they of fared to deal in building defense homes. And we engaged in that.

Q. How did that work? Did they sell them at . . .

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A. They would loan you . . .

Q. Oh, they'd loan you.

A. They'd loan, I think, ninety or ninety-five percent. That was unheard of up to that time. And we opened up some places where there were vacant lots, East Monroe and East Adams and Kern Street and West Capital. And West Capital was one of the places where we sold, where we let John Hunter move in when his relatives kicked him out. And that turned out fabulous for us. I think I told you about going down to Alabama to find the sawmil 1. That' s why we bought the sawmill in Alabama to make sure that we had the lumber to supply us.

Q. So you just built the regular homes. It wasn't a prepackaged deal.

A. No, they were just individual homes.

Q. And they're still standing I suppose?

A. Still standing and selling bout five or six times more than what they sold for then. Maybe more. Maybe ten times. But no, they were just individual homes.

(1. So they didn't give you--the suppliers or the builders--anything. They simply made it possible for people to buy them.

A. That's right. You would build them, you could rent them, you could sell them. And all of them, practically all of them we sold and a man wouldn't have to have very much money. He could buy a home for, I think for around five hundred dollars which was a terrific deal for him.

Q. I just was curious because I hadn't never heard that term before. Another thing I want to ask about to just hop around and hop back for a minute to sports. I see pictures about it and you've mentioned it only in passing. Your connection with auto racing down at the fairground and maybe having started them back up again after they lapsed for a while or something like that.

A. We had a boy and a girl. Lost the boy at the age of twenty with leukemia. Contractor friend of mine said, "They've got that acreage Herndon wants to sell out there alongside the railroad track and they've got the lots on Fifth Street. Why don't we go out and buy them?" He said, "I don't want the lots. I don't want the acreage." I said, "1'11 take it.'' So I took it.

Q. This wa$i on Fifth and what?

A. Fifth and Stanford. From Fifth to Third and Stanford. So the land

I was there and it was ideal fitted for a stadium. This must be 1946, around 1946 or 1947. So I built the Jim Fitzpatrick Stadium. We had opening day, filled the place. We had some special nights. But Springfield wouldn't come as a regular continuous customer. They'd just come on special events. And that wasn't enough to sustain them. So we tried everything. We had hardball and so£ tball. We had a girls hardball

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS team organized and had the last organized baseball team, MOV League [Missouri Ohio Valley]. That didn't take.

They cme along and somebody said ,--midget automobile racing come along. Sald, "Why don' t you put in midget automobile races?" We did. Jesus, it was fabulous.

Q. Dawn at the fairgrounds?

A. Out at the stadium.

Q. Oh, down there.

A. Yes, It was fabulaus. But I was scared to death. I was afraid somebody would get killed. Most of my activities in sports was cambatlve but we closed this. We closed the books without anybody ever connected wlth us having a serious casualty. But I was scared to death and I closed out midget racing for fear of that and turned it into, turned the place into a subdivision that went all the ways from there on down to Third and Iles.

Q. Did you have one or two seasons is all of the racing? A. Only had one season and I was scared to death. So . . . Q. Would that have been in 1948 or 1949 or in there somewhere.

A. That wauld have been later than that. It would have been, well, around the fifties. Around the fifties, maybe 1951 or 1952. I always presented the trophy, I got acquainted with the automobile set, racing set through my connection with Bill Menghini, he was in the auto parts bueinees, aad he said, "Why don' t you give them a trophy for the fastest time trial guy?" And I did every year, watch or a trophy or something. And got acquainted with most of the guys.

Q. That was at the fairgrounds, wasn't it?

A. Yes. We were down in St. Louis, llning up drivers for our races at the stadlum for Labor Day and Rex Mays and a couple of other guys, Rodger Ward, Bill Hillard, Duke Haloh, were there. And they said, "The hell .wth Springfield. We just left there today." Everybody slammed their door 'in our face again. Said, "Maybe I can help you out." So I went to work. And Rex got excited. He flew over here one day. He said, "khw are you coming along? Want to take you up and fly you around the lake.* I said, "No, I don't want to do with you." Had an open cock-pit m the plane. I said, "Send my nephew, Bill Steiger." So anyhow I said, 'We want to bring champion a,~tomobtleraces back to Springfield. You say you think you can help us ," He said, "Yes, I think. Let me go to work." Coony Eecker from Red Bud, Illinois, was general manager of the fair and we were friends and we were lunching at the Leland Hotel one day. I said, "Coony, go to the first ten guys and see what they think about returning championship races." He came back real quick and he said, "Why didn't you go up and ask them?" He said, "I asked enough. I asked the first three. We'll have them." So we brought them back. We brought them back.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Firzpatrick 68

Q. Scientific survey, huh?

A. We brought them back and then we staged some still dates. Still date is when the fair's not going on. you're just strictly on your own. Scared to death because it's never been tried before. And we took Ted Horn who had won--was one of the leaders in Indianapolis. Brought Ted over here to do some publicity missionary work before the race, paid him $500 for it. Grandstand holds 9300. It was filled. And Bill Holland won the Indianapolis race that year and Bill's here. And I said, "Where the hell is your automobile?" "Well," he said, "it's on the blocks over at Indianapolis." I said, "We didn't pay you $500 extra for coming over here to be taking pictures." He said, "Well, 1'11 race if you get me a car." So we got a hold of Duke Dinsmore who rode a motorcycle all the way to Columbus, Ohio and he had a good time trial test that day. Be said, "It'd take a lot of money to get me out of this car today. I've been fighting those midgets all summer." I said, "Well, you see all those people up there, They're all fans of you guys and you ought to satisfy them. How much?" He said, "$500." I said, "~etthe hell out,"

He got out, took the $500. Ted Horn and Bill Holland raced, and Ted Horn won the race. And Holland had won the Indianapolis race that year but he didn't have the car to back him up this time. I said, "Ted, would you think about retiring now?" He said, "&tiring now, what the hell. I've been scrubbing the floor all my life and 1'm no2 going to quit now. "

The next race was at DuQuoin. Within two weeks he went down. He always had a dime that he wore in his left hand sole of his shoe. And he got killed in the early part of the race and that was the last of Ted Horn.

And so went on. Another guy come down, had a spill down on the northwest corner. Jesus. They all went up in the air and one guy went under him and another guy went here, the car comes wobbling around, stops right up in front of the judges' stand, take the guy to the hospital. Name was Helm I think. Helm or something like that. All he had was a scratched finger. He got killed later on flying out of San Fransico.

Wilbur Shaw was one of the guys at that time. He got killed flying his airplane. He was here many times. And he got killed flying back into Indianapolis, his home. And what I'm getting up to is with all the hazards that we engaged in, our guardian angels was with us. And not one severe casualty. And I know of one case in Springfield where a Doctor Hunn was playing in a volleyball gme and he kicked a guy and killed the guy. Went to the hospital and he died in a volleyball game. So as &gainst a11 those hazards--baseball, football, and automobile racgqi-and all--we were very, very lucky. I can only say it now because I've got the curtain pulled down on it all- f - Q. j The racin& been big ever since around here, hasn't it?

A. Oh, hell yes. Now they go for the stock car races. They'll drive three or four hundred miles just to see the stock car races and they're about as dead as anything you can see. But they'llbring the kids and they'll came along and they're there hoping to see some severe accident.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Auto Races at Illinois State Fairgrounds, 1969 Noted auto race driver A. J. Foyt with J. R. Fitzpatrick and Jerry White

(Photo courtesy of J. R. Fitzpatrick)

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R, Fitzpatrick 69

And when they don't see a severe accident, they go away kind of disappointed. But the automobile race fan is the most docile, the most patient of any sports group that exists. You never hear them boo. You never near them holler about the delay or anything else. They just sit there patiently and take it. So they are a different breed.

Q. Well, we're at the end of this side here so I'm going to turn it over.

END OF SIDE ONE

Q. Well, we've touched a lot of bases. This is the fifth tape. I don't know if you knew that. And the other ones were at least an hour each. One thing we haven't touched is the fact that since the Citizens ~ribuiestopped publication, you have run--I guess, continuously since then--a paper called Main Street. Has that been continuous since then?

A. Yes. We had a slight: interlude. People said, "Oh, we miss you. Come on, do something." So I copied after Bill Stuart who I'd heard and seen in Chicago. He had been with Hearst all his life until he had to retire. I told you about seeing Hearst, didn't I?

Q. No. No.

A. Okay. Bill was quite a political force in Chicago and he elected Big Bill Thompson, mayor of Chicago. Thompson was kind of a society sporting guy. And Bill picked him up and made him mayor of Chicago and that's why the governor calls himself Big Jim Thompson. He gets it from Big Bill. And so anyhow, we picked it up and ran it. And the nice part about it was . . . Q. Picked what up? I didn't . . .

A. Picked up Main Street. Called it Main Street. That was a column I wrote before in the Citizens Tribune. And we called it Main Street. And the nice part about it was we didn't have to have guys out knocking doors for advertising and we didn't have to wrangle them with the five differept unions throughout the year trying to keep ourselves going. So since then we got the idea instead of raising the price, got the idea of selPing little squibs of advertising. I think we gat about twenty and all we do is mention the firm's name and tel@phone number, two lines. And they paid $5 a week for it. And up to now we've only had three cancellations.

Q. .Has your circulation stayed pretty steady over the years?

A. Yes. And we find this. That each issue is sene around, mailed around and finally winds itself up being mailed to some outside relative of some other town which gives them a chance to keep in connection with what goes on in Springfield.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick 70

Q. How many subscribers do you actually have? A. Well, we have 772 but I think about 15,000 . . . Q. Readers.

A. . . , keep 15,000 readers. But we don't put the pressure on anybody to subscribe.

Q. And you write most of it.

A. I do. And I still use the typewriter pretty good. And Bill Stuart told me--I said, "Bill, how can you keep pounding the streets around down here in Chicago every day at your age and at your weight and ao on?" He said, "Fitz, the healthy thing in life is get it off your chest. It may not be popular with the other guy but it's good for yours," And so that is what we have.

Q. And that's been going for about twenty-five years almost? Did it start as soon as the Tribune stopped?

A. Yes. Yes. I think there might have been two or three months interlude there. And so it comes easy. And never yet have had enough space for all the stuff that we want to get into and we're trying to make it as concise as we can.

Q. Well, you have a lot of nice reminiscences in there as we11 as cmmwts about current events and so on. It's interesting.

A. You didn't see this. Look at that picture there now.

Q, Who are those?

A. Those are the three loyal rooters. We claimed that because we were so successful in being out in front, the only way we could get anybody to root for us, we had to hire them. So WE hired the three loyal rooters. They were winoes. And anything w won, why they got the wine, I said, It If we don't win, you don't get no wine." Of course ue got them the wine anyhow. But that was the threat we had. But they put on a good act. And then each year we would have a reunion. I told you about that didn' t I?

Q. Yes. So you have loyal subscribers. I bet you many of them are pevle who were with you right through the Tribune and all that. Well, as $ my we've touched a lot a£ bases and it's obvious that you've had a fu+1 life already. A

A. Everything of my life has been more or less accidental. I got my first job at the Vredenburgh Lumber Cmpany because my older brother Joe and I--the summer I graduated from St. Mary's at the age of 13 or 14--he

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick 71

caught typhoid fever at ~oke'sMill. Koke's Mi11 was in the paper today. It's a subdivision now. But it was a place out here where they had I guess a gristmill or something I guess. So my mother called and said, "You better get another boy. Joe will be in the hospital for six weeks." They said, 'What about the boy who came down to get his pay?" She said, "Is he big enough?" She said, "Yes." "Well, send him down." So I went down. I went there. I was prodded by a guy, contractor Burt Crawford. He said, "Bud, you've got to have more education." I don't know whether I told this one or not, did I?

Q, Yes. Yes. And how you . . . A. Yes. So anyway the army cane along and then the government--and I went on there, And then I . . .

Q. You told how you started in your own lumber business. You never planned any of these things.

A. No. I wanted to be a lawyer. The one thing I wanted to be was a lawyer. And I got the books and all and I studied. And I was doing all right, but I got a good background of law which came in very good. And I've said to all the kids I know of, every family ought to have a lawyer and if you're a lawyer--don't make any difference what line of business you're in, in the insurance business or whatever it is--you're better than any of your cmpetitors if you have that background.

Q. Sounds like you've had satisfaction out of everything you did even though you didn't plan to be in it.

A. That's right. Work was never boresome to me. Anything I did, I got pleasure out of. And I always liked the challenge. And my wife Florence always said, "The guy-don't make any difference what happens--can be asleep within five minutes of the time he lays his head on the pillow and he'll be snoring," And I have been blessed with being able to get a good night's rest no matter what the problems are and there's never a time when I didn't hawe something that was somewhat of a problem. She said, "If he'd just get up early in the morning, why he'd be a millionaire."

Q. I can understand that.

A. Wt of my thiqo have been accidental.

, " it whd~X$ke itmade it easier tao because you really love rhi~$am, don't you?

A. : YeaI . It is the vfllage.

Q. Why do you call it the village? I'm carious.

A. It really is the village for this reason. 11: sril 1 retains the aspects of the human mankind, the friendliness, the enmity, the acquaintanceship of people. And you can be in Springfield for a short time and you can get the lowdown. And one time when I'm over at the school board. Now I'm representing my paper and they wanted me to be there, not the editor, So I'm there, entire board's there. And the one guy, J, D. Meyere-still lives--newspaper guy, sharp guy, Jewish, says, J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick 72

"YOU EMOW Bud, I was always a good friend of the Bishop and so on." And I said, "Now Jack, you don't have to tell me that. I know Springfield pretty well. I've of ten said, 'Give me five minutes and I can give you the lowdawn on anybody and give me another minute and I'll tell you their favorite brand of bourbon."' So Zt's a case of where, of course, it's changing. And I think it's changing fast now because so many that I know, did how, have gone on. New ones coming an where I dont t have the same advantage that I had before. But it is interesting because of retaining those human aspects, good and bad.

Q. Yes, I understand. I think I'm out of questions, It's really been interesting.

A. When we get the pictures all put together, you come back and look at them.

Q. Oby. We're going to get to that question that I more or less meant to ask and forgot it. Haw is it you got inta all these pictures with all these dignitaries and you started to tell me how it is you got into politics originally, and interested or involved with politics.

A. Well, I'm Irish all the way through. And the Irish have a flair for politics, probably because they have so much time on their hands over raising the potatoes and the crops grow and they dance and sing and drink down at the tavern. And so I never ran for any public office, never had the inclination to, but always had a flair for it. And being here in the capitol, that probably added a little to it. But in the Bull Moose landslide Woodrow Wilson was elected president. They had a jollification parade in Springfield.

Q. Jollification?

A. Jollification. A celebration. Down in front of Mddaner's I can recall my older brother Joe and I were there. And I paid a kid, a kid there had a donkey. And I paid him fifty cents to let me ride the donkey symbolic of the Democratic party and Joe lad the donkey. And the parade went all around downtown and I can still see it going up the driveway up to the governor's mansion. That was the big event. Riding the donkey up to tW~@vernorlsmansion, So went on at that. , " Andi t-Manewspaper, the newspaper I guess naturally would bring you in cox#aat with those ia'the political picture. And with the newspaper, dorfr @take any differewe-how big or how small, it always gives you an eaw'mtree. And I have been lucky in being able to size up a campaign an& pi& the winner. Seldom have L been wrong. I was for Kennedy when ap, I was for Jimmy Carter uhen he ran. And this time I was for &;when he ran against Jimmp Carter, & you can see by those pictures kkre in the czarrespondence. f would say the newspaper is your enrrss, That would bq the entree because every politician figures, "Well =$be it won't hurt if I get my name in." And so I would say that was it., bd then I get in the boxing commission, appointed by Governor Homer. Jk picked me because of sports. And politics I don't think had anythiag to do with it. He wanted somebody on the board that would carry out his ideas.

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS J. R. Fitzpatrick

Q. Well, you sure do have a good collection of pictures there. We should look through them and pick same out to include with this.

A. I'm sure when we get them all they'll bring back some other memories.

END OF TAPE FIVE

J. R. Fitzpatrick Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS