3572 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions and Answers. a reasonable opportunity of selling them PRINTED QUES'fiONS AND to th~butchers. Could not the provision ANSWERS. with regard to these sheep be more liberal than it is~ I do not know enough about CROWN LANDS NEAR MENINDIE. the matter to suggest a particular amend Mr. BROOKFIELD asked the SECRE ment, but I know there is necessity for TARY FOR LANDS,-(1) How many appli some such provision. catious for leases, closer settlement blocks, The Ron. E .. J. KAVANAGH: The or any other form of tenure, have been information-at my disposal does not bear made during the last five yeat·s for land out what the bon. member suggests. wi~hin a distance of 10 miles of Mcnindie, These pastures protection boards, com on the river frontage 1 (2) How many prising gentlemen well versed in these leases, closer settlement blocks, &c., have matters, seem perfectly satisfied that 20 been allotted during that period 1 ~ 3) miles is a fair distance. Forty miles is How many applications have beqm refused 1 regarded as giving too much latitude for ( 4) Is there any land avail;/OJie on the the possibility of the sheep "growing'' en river frontage that is open for selection in l"OUte, as it is commonly ·termed, and it small lots of from 5 acres to 20 acres, ahd is considered that these provisions are a what are the conditions 1 fair thing. Answer,-(!) Thirty-three. (2) Four Clause as amended agreed to. teen, but seven were not accepted by the Bill reported with amendments; report applicants ; eleven applications were with adopted. drawn by the applicants. ( 3) Four. ( 4) No ADJOURNMENT. land has been made available for applica ORDER OF BUSINESS. tion in blocks of 5 to 20 acres with Motion (by Ron. E. J. KAvANAGH) pro frontage to the river. posed: Mr. DAVIDSON asked the SECRETARY That this House do now adjourn. FOR LANDS,-(1) How many leases have The Ron. J." GARLAND: I should be been applied for during the past five years glad if the :Minister will state, for the within a radius of 5 miles river frontage -convenience of bon. members, what busi from Menindie 1 (2) How many hlocks, nesR he proposes to take to-morrow. if any, are already allotted 1 (3) Is it a . The Ron. E. J. KAVANAGH: I pro fact that a number of blocks have been pose to take the Profiteering Prevention applied for ~n the above holding, and the ·Bill, and, on the completion of that to request for small leases refused 1 If so, morrow, I will go on with the Workmen's for wha.t reason 1 ·Compensation Amendm.ent Bill. Answer,-(1) Thirty-three. · (2) Seven Question resolved in the affirmative. grn.nted, and leases issued; seven gra.nted, but leases not a,ccepted by applicants; House adjourned at 10.34 p.m. eleven applications withdrawn by appli cants; four refused-conflicting applica tions; four in course of action. (3) Sec 1Legi.ulatifle ctr.uzembll!. question No. 2. Tuesday; 14 December, 1920. WESTERN DIVISION LEASES. 'Printeu Questions and Answers- Questions without Mr. DAVIDSON asked the SECHETARY Notice-Pcrsonn.l Explanation- Assent to Bills C:aim of Captain Wootten-Public Hospital Finances FOR LANDS,-(1) What is the name or -Gun License Bill-Municipal Council of Sydney names of the registered lessees of.the fol-· }:lectric Lighting (Amendment) Bill (second reading) -A rchitcct• Bili-Go.\•crnment SM·ing-s Bank (Rural lowing holdingK :-Yandama, Yancannia, !lank) Bill (second reading)-Eight Hours (Amend Morrlen, Packsaddle, Mount Arrowsmith, ment) Bill-Minimr (.~mendment) Bill- Stamp Duties llill (1 hird reading)-Food Preservation by Sulphur Wyarra, Cobham, Coally,. Botra, Grass Dinxide Enabling Bill -Sydney Harbour Trust · (Amendment)· Bill-Fair Rents (Amendment) Bill mere, Cuthowarra, Topergnalta, Glenlyon, (third reading-)-Amplification ofSydne.v Water Supply Nuntherungie, Wonominta, Nundora, -First Rending-F- Legal PractitionP.rs (Amendment) Bial {third reading-Elder's Tntst.ee and Executor Erisino, Elsir.ora, Thurlo Downs 1 · (2) Company, Limited, Bill (second reading). Has Mr. Sidney Kidman any interest in the above holdings 1- (3) What areas have Mr. SPEAKER·took the chair. been resumed on the above or any other [The Hon. J. B. Peden. Questions and Answers. (14 DEc., 1920.] Questions and Answers. 3573
holdings in the Western Division which erection of dwellings for settlers other . have not been again leased~ ( 4) Have than soldiers, and what is the average any of t.he resumed areas prior to this cost. of each such dwelling 1 year been taken annually by Mr. Sidney Answer,-(l.) £162,908. (2) £77,609; Kidman, or on his behalf, which have not average for each house, £485. ( 3) £85,299; been renewed· this year 1 (5) If so, when average for each house, £255. are these leases likely to be thrown open for settlement 1 (fi) Is Mr. Kidman, or any person on his behalf, usini any of ALLOWANCE TO JURYMEN. the resumed holdings as permissive occu pancies 1 Mr. DAVIDSON asked the ATTORNEY Answer,-(!) Yandaina; John George GENERAL,-(!) Is it a fact that workmen Edge and Malcolm Purches Reid ; Yan who are summoned to attend the Court cannia, Yancannia Pastoral Company of Quarter Sessions as jurymen lose from Proprietary Limited ; Morden, Morden 'i1>. per day upwards whilst travelling. to Proprietors Limited; Packsaddle, :Morden and attending the courts~ (2) ·will he Proprietors Limited; Mount Arrowsmith, incrPase the allowance to jurymen whilst Morden Pt·oprietors Limited; \Vyarra, attending the court; also, increase the Morden Proprietors Limited; Cobham travelling allowance to jurymen in the , Lake, Morden Proprietors Limited; country 1 Coally, Anthony Sackville Kidman and Answer,-(1) I am not aware what the Stella Matilda Kidman (trading as Boott·a losses of jurymen are. (2) The question Pastoral Company); Bootra, Anthony of increasing the remuneraLion, including Sackville Kidman and Stella ·Mtttilda· travelling expenses, of juror~, is under Kidman ; Grassmere, Alexander Cornfute considP-ration. Macdonald; Cuthowarra, Alexander Con fute Macdonald ; Topar, Topltr Pastoral Company Limited ; Gnalta, Bennett and COST OF TRAMWAY CONSTRUCTION Fisher Limited; Glenlyon, .Walter Gor · FOR PAST FIVE YEARS. don Duncan, Alexander Bowman, and Mr. GREIG asked the MINISTER FOR. Herbert vVilliam Bowman; . N unther RAILWAYs,-The average cost per mile of ungie, N untherungie Pastoral Company 7 tramway>~ constructed in the metropolis. Limited ; 11\ onominta, Morden Proprie and suburb;; during the past five(5) years 1· tors Limited; Nundoro, Austra;lian Mer cantile Land· and Finance Company Answer,-I am informed: Limited; Urisino, Urisino and Elsinora £13,052 per track mile. Paqtoral Comp!!-ny PropriEhry· Limited; Elsinora, U risino and Elsinora Pastoral Company Proprietary Limited; Thurloo RETURNED SOLDIERS: .GOVERN~1EN'f' Downs, U risino and Elsinora Pastoral PRINTING OI!'FICE Company Proprietary Limited. (2) No t\T r. ,JAQUES asked the PREMIEB,.:_ record i~ official registers. (3) None. (1) Is it a fact that in the Government (4) No. (5) See question No.4. (6) No. Printing Office there are some men tem porarily employed as .::opy-holders who are EXPENDITURE ON DWELLING HOUSES, in full bodily health ~ (2) Is it a fact YXNCO .AREA. that the wo.rk done by these men could Major SHILLINGTON asked the be satisfactorily done by returned soldiers MINISTER FOR AGRICUL'l'URE,-(1) What who have been maimed~ {:)) "Will he is the total amount expended by the consid.:r the desirability of placing .these Water Conservation and Irrigation Com men back on their jobs as compositors mission in the Yanco area on dwelling and p~tting maimed returned soldiers in. houses for settlers 1 (2) Of the whole the positions of copy-holders? amount how much has been expended for Answer,-(1) No. Most of them are soldier settlers' dwellings, and what is returned maimed soldiers, while a few are the average cost, of each such dwelling 1 officers not in a good state of· health. (3), How much has been expended on the (2) Yes. (3) See (1) and (2). · ·. Q,uestio1rs .and.A·nsui e1·s. . --~ . . INCREASED. SALARIES~ EOR, PUJ3LIG. ofc.one income-tax-return and oae collectod SERVi\.'NTS.' (2.), Wh~t is·thecresultcof:- the. inq.uiry. io M!·: D~AVI))SQN;asked:thcPimmHn,., · far·' as this, Sbte·is· concerned:1 (lr).. Is. it a. fact~ tliat:. in the A.rbitration Ahswer,T"(-1?·· Yi'ls:· (2)' The royaltcom · Gourt; .diiring:the hearing.of' an· '"l~P.liea mission-a ppointed l:iy. the ·F~deral Govern . tion' oy· the: PuDlic.· Service A:ssociation ment:'in··conformitY.· with· tHe agreement for QUESTIONS, WH'UOUT NOTICE. member Dr. Arthur has presumed· on his ,• position as a private member of this PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (CASUAL . VACANCIES) ACT: House to invite a number of women in a delicate state of health to-tramp in from Mr. OAKES: ln view of the message all. parts of the suburbs-some of them from his Excellency which has just been. without the means to pay for a tram ride read notifying that the royal assent has -and apply here for assistance. This been given to the Parliamentary Elections action on the part of the hon. me~1ber is (Casual Vacancies) Bill might I ask you, evidence of his positive callousness, and sir; in view of the responsible duties de if he does not see fit to desist from this volving upon you, and the Clerk,. what course of conduct, I shall get half-a steps will be taken to enable bon. mem dozen of the women to flog him within an bers• who· have been appoint(>d to the ace of his life. The bon. member has vacancies to take their seats without calied these women together so that they further delay~ may stand before Parliament House and Mr .. SPEAKER : The ho:1. member may beg· when he knows that they have only rest sa tis lied, that 1 shalLtake the proper to apply to the representatives of their steps.without any· delay. There a.re cer electorates to receive proper attention in tain,matters.which I must carefully con the usual way. The bon. member has sider; but I can assure the hon. member been guilty of most reprehensible conduct, that action will be•taken at once. and we have a right to ask him to desist from it. WOMEN APPLICANTS FOR RELIEF. Mr. SPEAKER: So far as I am concerned Mr. J. C. L. FITZPA'rRICK : I desire I know nothing of the invitation n~ferred to know whether the Premier is aware to, and I certainly think that no bon. that in the vestibule of this House there member ought to invite any number of are fifLy ut· :six.Ly laJie:;, suwe uf them with people to attend within the precincts of babies, who have been waiting about this Rouse without consulting me. practically. all day· long~ These ladies Dr. ARTHUR : I do not take the have been within_ the precincts. of this slightest notice of the Premier's abuse. House making;inquiries as to ':'here they Mr. J. STOREY: You will take notice of could oHain the help which they allege it if you do not alter your conduct! has been promised to them. Is the Pre Dr: ARTHUR: It is the guilty con· mier aware of this fact, and has he science of the bon. member that is making arranged any interview witli these ladies, him speak. or that they should attend here to-day~ I Mr. J. STOREY: There is no guilty con may say that· the• number of ladies is science about it ! increasing as the hours go by. Dr. ARTHUR : A large number of . Mr. LAZZARINI: I would like to women residing in various parts of the city know whetlier or not the Premier is aware and suburbs applied to me to know where that these unfortunate women with their they could obtain assistance. I directed Tittle· babies, are here· as the result of a them to apply either to the Colonial Sec circular:sent out by the bon. member Dr. retary's Department or to me. I made ·up Arthud: a list of about lOO applications [md sent it Mi:: J. STOREY: I wish to say that I to the Colonial Secretary's Office, with a have· only• just: heard of the fact that request that the cases should be investi there. are· a· large number of ladies out gated, and if they were deserving of side, andtthat·they:are·here at the-invita assistance from the department that tion of:the hon:.member·Dr; Arthur. In a~;sistance should' be• granted. On that tlie fii·st place .. if:T were·one· of the ladies, very day I received a lettet· from. the ore among them; .I would wait for the hon: under-secretary stating that the Colonial member. with: a bucket·of scalding water, Secretary had informed him that he could and• the firsiF tiine• he approached would not receive the applir.ations in that form; give· him: tlie· contents. of.' it.. I cannot and _that any applications for assistance conceive i oL a:. more• cruel,. inhuman, and must come to the department through·the unthinking- act· ever.--~manating-from an members representing the districts in hon: member of' thist House: The-bon, which the women were residing. I· at 3576 Questions and Answers. [ ASSE MRLY.] Questions and Answers. 0 once sent out a circular, because I did not Mr. J. STOREY: Do it in a proper way wish these unfortunate applicants to be and we slmll not object. We do not mind disappointed, telling them to apply to the hon. member's criticism on the floor their members, and that if they wanted of the House, but we do object to him to sP.e their members they could see them sending out r:irculars inviting the women here ·at 4 o'clock this afternoon. They 'to come to Dr. Arthur the philanthropist, have a perfect right, as well as other elec- who will give them succour! . tors h information is the principal ·difficulty in · PRESSING FARMERS FOR DEBTS. the way of closing the 1915--16 pool. As M:r. ASHFORD: In view of" the very regards 1916-17 and later pools, the alarmin" statement which was attributed· r;osition has been complicated by the to the Minister foi· Agriculture in the effect on these pools of the very large press yesterday, will the l\Iinistor take quantities of 1916-17 wheat much below steps to seo thaL the creditors of the f.a:q: At what stage sales should, owing farmers do not, by reason of that state to inferiority of quality, he considerP.d ment, press ·for the payment of their as solely on account of 1916-17, or on debts? In view of that adverse statement, account of later pools under the general made bv himself, will the Minister take principles of the pooling scheme, is a steps to protect the farmers~ matter in regard Lo which the Yarious Captain DUNN: The only way· that States' nrganisations are now making I understand the hon. member's question investigations 'with a view to the matter is that it is a suggestion by him that we being finally disposed of at a special should take some steps, perhaps by way meeting referred to. For the information of moratorium, or something of that of hon. members I might mention that the kind-- · special meeting referred to, it is expected, Mr. AsnFORD: By representations; -I will be held at the end of January next mean, in view of your own statement-- year or early in February, and it i~ hoped Captain DUNN: By means of a moriL· that things will be so far adv'anced by tori urn, perhaps, or by some other method, _ that time that it will be possible to wind to see, I presume, if we can pnn-ent any up the old pools. creditors from closing on tbe farmers. Mr. OAKES : The Minister in his state The Go,·ernment has from time to time ment has mentioned three certificates. considered the question of a moratorium, Are we to understand that the third cer but up to the present it has not considered tificate is to take the place of the payment it advisable to put the moratorium bill guaranteed by this Government 1 through this House, although the bill is prepared. Any other representations Captain DUNN: I did not mention which might have the effect of easing three certificates at 3s. 6d. I mentioned pressute upon the farmers by their· a first certificate of 3s. 6d., payable on creditors will gladly be made in the same the Hth Januar_y, a second certificate of way as they have been made on several 2s. 6d. payable on the 30th April, and a occasions during the last few months. surplus certificate after that for whatever· Mr. ASHFORD: Does the Minister the surplus may be, whethPr ls., 2s. 6d., not recognise that the statement ttttri 3!! .. or 5s. Those are the payments that buted to him yesterday must have a very have, been arranged. The 2s. 6d. owing serious effect on the financial position of by this State is not covered by the certifi the farmers, and will. he· take steps, on' cates I have referred to, but if we can those grounde, to urge their creditors not make arrangements we expect during the to take advantage of the position at the next ten or twelve clays t.hat the State moment~ Will he likewise, directly be payment will be in addition to those I gets the neces!:ifiry powers, make available have already referred to. the ·2s. 6d. for payment for the wheat, so Mr: OAKES: Can the Minister gi':e that the farmers may get out of their .any assurance that· the House will not. difficulties ~ rise until he has definitely stated when Captain DUNN": I am not aware that the 2s. 6d. promised. by this Government.· my statement has had the effect the bon. will be paid 1 member suggests. · Captain DUNN: I cannot give that Mr. AsHFORD: It must have had ! assurance. Whether the House rises or· Captain DUNN: Perhaps, in the mind not this Government will continue its ofa nervous creditor.. negotiations with the object of paying the Mr.. ASHFORD: It was.a nervous· sta.te• 2s. 6cl. Whether the House remains in• ment ! session or-not cannot affect· the financiaL Captain DUNN-.:· A.nervous creditor; arrangements we are trying to•make. in·.view· of' the. statement I made, mighfl r·-: Gttestions and:Answers. [1'4 tDl;;c:; 1920;] .Questions and•Answers. 3579 · think. that. the· farmers~ asset was,depre came to the conclusion that steps should ciated, because, owing. to the· serious he taken, at the earliest opportunity, for ra.in, some farmers• have had a•.portion· of the purpose·of- ~tarting tho city milway, their crops ruined. Unfortunately; this with a view· of rPlieving tbe gre:::.t con has· been the case in r~gard · to. some gestion th11.t exists in·regard to the traffic: farmers·; but e;·en in those cases t.he assets· of· the farmtrs, I have no doubt,· will more tha,n co;·er their lia,bilities, and SAVINGS BANK.AND LOAN FUND. they will, of course, be paiJ in fulHor all ~Ir. J. C. L: FITZPATRlGK: I de wheat that they are able t.o bag INTEREST-BEARING WHEAT proposed, and other purposes, in connec- • CERTIFICATES. tion with charity. I understand the Mr. BALL: In reference to the 2s. 6d. applicant is prepared to give a large pro pllr bushel to be paid for wheat, I desire portion of the takings which he is to get to ask the lVhmster tor Agnculture 'from the show to various charities in and whether, if be finds it impossible to pay around Sydney. As far a~; I was con in ca'h the amount which has been pro cerned the mat.ter W\1-S purely formal, mised, he will consider the advi~.~ability because the City Council, whicn is the of issuing wheat certificates, say, early in· custodian of the park, had handed January, to carry interest similar t,., those it over to the Rail way Commissioners which are to be issued bv the Federal some time ago merely for the purpose authorities 1 " of enabling a start to be made with Captain DUNN: If it is not posRible the construction of the. city railway. to pay in the manner in which we desi!'e I do not expect the city railway will be to pay, that is to say, in cash, then I have commPnced till those shows are finished, alway~ intended to and will, glndly, con which will be em·ly in the new year. sider the question, iu conjunction with Mr. WALKER: What rent are you C>t.binet, of the advisability of issuing paying for that place 1 w hea.t notes. Mr. ESTELL: I am not paying any rent. The City Council is the custodian LETTING HYDE PARK FOR ENTER TAINMENTS. of the park, and. at the present time that portion of the park is fenced in, Sir THOlVfAS HENLEY: Will the and i:-; of no use so far as the general Minister for Railways inform the Hou~e ptblic i;; concerned. Therefore, I can see what a.re his reasons for giving a portion no harm whatever in any show being held of om· public park to a private promoter there. Shows are held on many parks in of ente~tainments for the J•Urpose of a and around the metropolitan area. stadium and Wild. West show, to the' detriment of the people who own the 1Ir. JAQUES: Will the Socretary for Public \Vorks inform the· House under park, and also of the people v.:ho live in whoS 3582 Questionsand,A."nswer~. 1[ASSEMBLY.] Questions ..and.:Answers. ' FORTY-FOUR HOURS ~WEEK .tAND the summer .resort .at Byron Bay every 'FIRE'mRIGAlJES .. Sund~y chave ·to p~y the increased fares Mr. :A. JF.:SM:ITH·: ::I. aesire to asktthe recent!y im.posed, .. will he take some Minister·for.;Labour. and 1 Indust~.y 'if tthe st~ps ·.towards : remo\ii~g . the increase Eight rHours (Amendment) ':Bill fpasse~, so that 'these working-men and their and, the working .week lid reduced ·:frorn families ,v.ill:bc free to enjoy.the sunshine forty~eight ihours :.to :for~y:four, will lit oflife.; and ''vill.he serious~y consider the have applicationito,th~ .metropolitan !fire advisabli~y of issuing a Jf is the~form his question.took: ''Is :it a by the·Board of Trade, i1nd we have nothing Ifact ·.that 'SOme Government servants, are to do with the Federal authorities. ·We not :receiving the basic wage·of £4 5s. a may view with contempt or approval what week~" That was the hon. member's has been done by the Federal Government question, and he will find it reported .according to ou·r own ideas. T d_o not in Hansard. I was surprised to hear that ·know exact! y what the' bon. member wants anybody in the civil sen:ice was. receiving . tiS to do, bti t if.be desires that we should less than the basic w~ge of £4 5s. per follow the example of the 'Federal Gov week,.and I saii:l that i£ he eould,point ernment and gives me notice.of his ques out .that such was the .case I would see tion I shall be gla4 to consider the matter. .who was responsible for it. 'Now, I am . somewhat surprised to be askeCl another BROKEN HILL MUNIClPAL STKIKE. · question .altogether. 'The hon. member ·is now tryin_g to drag in the ·marginal Mr. BROOKFIJ<:LD: I desire to know differences. If. my. bon ..friend had had hiR whether the Minister ·for Labour and •guestion correct from Mr. vVillR, and if ·Industry is aware that another strike· may 'he l1ad asked it correctly in the· House; I toccur ·amongst the municipal employee~> would have answered it correctly. The ··;at Broken Hill owing to1a•violation by hon. member asked me -not about the ··the ·council of the findings of the recent marginal incr~ases l:lilt whethPr there ·conference which was held at the· instance were a number of men in the public .ser ·.of the 1\linister 7 vVill :the Minister•in vice who were not·Teceiving £4 5s. per order to prevent ·another uphea.val ·in ·week. I said then that 'I ·was. surprised Broken :Hill take steps to ·see that ·the !to· hear that there were any public .ser •findings -of ·the Tccent "COnference 'are ·vants not receiving £4 5s. per week and ·carried out·1 :Mr. CANN: .1 -was •not aware •that I am•still surprised~ !.here• waR' another ·strike ·on . the ·.wa.y -at · Broke'n 'Hill, butT -will give instructions ALLOW'.ANCES FOR .CHILDREN. to my department with •regard ·to steps .·Mr. KEARSLEY: I would like ·to being t;tken ·to, ·if-·possible, :prevent ·a. .. know 'vhether .the attention of the strike or. arrive at- an amicable,settlement. . ·Premier bas been dmwn to a report . .in .the stack and store it, and to afterwards :Mr. CANN: I have made full m deliver it to the ship's slings for !d. per quiries and I understand a declaration hushel7 will bo made some time before Christ Captain DUNN : Protracted negotia . mas. tions took place and several offers and conflicting proposals were made, but I am HANDLING OF WHEAT AT not clear whether there was ever a definite TRANG IE. offer made at the rate mentioned by Mr. ASHFORD: Some days ago the the bon. meru ber. I will look into the :Minister for Agriculture promised me matter anrl if the bon. member repeats that he would make inquiries as to the his question I may be able to give him an arrangements for the handling of wheat answer to-morrow. received at Trangie Station. I desire to know whether he is in a position to state .c\:USTRALIAN REAL LIFE :EXHIBITION. the result of his inquiries? Captain CHAFFEY: I desire to know Captain DUNN: I have made inquiries, whether theMinistP.r of Public Instruction and I have to tell the bon. member that is aware that when his Excellency the Wheat Board feels that it should the Governor visited the Moree show he ·stand by the decision it formerly ar was greatly impressed with the brilliant rived at. exhibition of horseman~hip and country life features generally given by the com STA'l'EM:ENTS BY MINISTERS. petitors 1 As a consequence some enthu siastic local men have orga!lised an. exhi Colonel ONSLOW: I wish to .know bition which is to be given for educational whether 'the attention of the Premier purposes at the Agricultural Society's has been drawn to statements reported in 3'esterday's evening newspapers as Ground, to-morrow at 2 p.m. and 8 p.m.~ In view of the fact that t-here are no pro having ·been made py two members of fessionals associated with this undertak the Government. The first statement, ing and that the exhibition will be of by the Minister for Agriculture, was to great educational value and inspiring to the effect that £5,000,000 had been lost · to wheat growers as the ·result of the the minds of the children of the metro politan area will the Minister consent to rec!ent heavy rain, and he went on to Commiserate with the farmers on their a half-holiday being granted to permit of loss. The second statement was made school children attending in the after by the :Minister for Public Health, some noon 1 where in the country, and was to the l\fr. l\1:UTCH: I am very · anxiouil effect that no notice should be taken of · that every Australian child should see a the pessimistic views which had been real Australinn show, and I believe the expressed with regard to the financial one referred to is one of th!tt kind, position of this State and that many · but I am very sorry to say that the near millions of money would soon be circu approach of · the Christmas vacation lated in this country as the result of makes it impossible to grant any extra our production of wheat, wool, and so holidays at this stage. · . forth. If the attention of the Premier has ·been drawn to these statements, I LIVING WAGE FOR WOMEN. should like to know whether either of Mr. O'HALLORAN: Some little time them represents the considered opinion ago the Minister for Labour and In of his Government, and if so, which? dustry r-romised me, in answer to a ques Mr. J. STOREY: I do not know that tion, that h·~ '"ould.request the Board of I can sec anything inconsi~tent in the , Trade to expedite its finding in regard statements. The Minister for Publia to the living wage for women worker!' in IIealth was speaking .in general terms this State. As evidently no determina of the financial stability of the country, tion has been arrived ·at, .will the Minis- and inviting his listeners not to be pessi . ter inform the House when we may e." mistic at this juncture, or make it pect an announcement to be made oa appear that New South Wales was on . the subject? the verge of bankruptcy. He assured lk- ,Questions and Answers. (14 DEc., 1920.] Questions and Answers. 3585 them that that :was not the position so number of people who are employed and far as he understood it, and that was a the scarcity of unemployment, surely the perfectly reasonable and close down members home after the rising of the any bureau, but we do desire to utilise House. An hon. member may retire at to the best the services of every officer of any hour ·he may feel disposed, and we the department. will afford him the best means of getting home on condition that he will undsrtake HARVESTING DAMAGED CROPS. to stay at home. I think we shall hava to sit late some nights this week if bon. lfr. BENNETT: I wish to ask the members feel that we should sit late, :Thiinister for Agriculture if he is aware but if, in the opinion of bon. members that a very fine sample of wheat, har opposite, we ought to rise early, then the vested a few days ago, arrived in Sydne;y Government will be delighted to do it. this morning from Gunnedah; and that it . was obtained from a crop which had been on the ground nearly a fortnight and GOULBURN LABOUR BUREAU. which was salved by the aid of a device Mr. ASHFORD: I wish to ask the known as the crop lifter? Is the }Iin P~emier, in the absence of the Minister ister also aware that the device has for Labour and Industry, if he is aware proved very successful, that there are not that it is stated that the labour bureau many machines available in the State, at .Goulburn is to be closed~ If that is and that the harvest in the Gunnedah cqrrect, is it the policy of the Govern district where a number of the machines ment to close country bureaux~ · are in operation is likely to be garnered Mr. J. STOREY: The Government has ' within the next few weeks; if not will he 'no policy in regard to matters of that take steps to inquire into these state sort. H there is a labour bureau in any ments and if they are found correct, particnlar centre and there is no work for ruideavour to . procure the machines in the officers to do, and the continuance order :to send them to other districts of thf: bureau is considered unnecessary where the crops have been levelled by by tbe department because of the large the recent· rains~ '10 s 3586 'Questions and Answers. [ASSEMBLY.] 'Questions and Amwers, Captain DUl\TN: I understand that on the site of which it is proposed to machinery is being used in some places erect new bank premises, I wish to ask fairly successfully in dealing with crops the Colonial Treasurer if he can inform in the State described by the hon. mem the House what is the estimated cost of ber. I will look into the question to the new buildings ~ · . morrow and obtain a report as to the Mr. LANG: I ha"Ve no information efficacy of the machine; and if it is additional to what the bon. member has found possible to use it to advantage I seen in th-e press. All I know of the will see that it is done. project is what I have seen in. the press, but I can get some further informa tion. STATE PUBLIC HOLIDAY. :Mr. KEARSLEY: I desire to ask the RICHMOND AVIATION SCHOOL. Premier if he has given further con c·.: r. WAL h. Eli: I wish to ask the sideration to the question I put to him ]lfinistm· of Public Instruction if he can last week regarding the proclamation of inform the House as to tbe intentions 'Of the Tuesday following Christmas Day as the Government with regard to the a public holiday~ .seeing_th~t num~~ous aviation school at Richmond, and will applications are bemg made .,y mumc1pal he take steps to see that it is kept in and shire councils for that day to be p:o oueration as a commercial school~ claimed a public holiday, and it is under ~Mr. IuUTCH: It has been definiteiy stood the day will be a holiday for those decided to abandon the aviation school servants in such respective localities, at Richmond. For some considerable and that the Federal public servants time past efforts have been made to in• have also been granted a public holi duce the Federal Government to take day on that day, I wish now to ask the over the eXcellent hangar we have, but Premier whether in view of the con up to the present time we have not been fusion that i& arising in many parts of able to get any satisfaction, although it the State by reason of the fact that the is the Federal Government's responsi Federal public offices will be closed and bility to control matters concerning ib.e State public offices. will be open, he aviation in general. will consider the advisableness of pro Mr. WALKER: For defence purposes claiming the Tuesday a public holiday only, not for commercial purposes 1 in this State? Mr. MUTCH: The Government does }fr. J. STOREY: The hon. member, not propose to enter upon a commercial I understand, is asking that an addi enterprise of that kind. Outside of that tional holid:;~.y should be given to the altogether, the Government's intention State public servants because a pro is to substitute for the aviation school claimed public holiday happens to fall at Richmond-and steps are being taken on Saturday. If so, it is a question to this end-a school for aircraft de which ought to receive careful con sign and construction at the Sydney: sideration, in view of the fact that there Technical Uollege, and, in my judg are at this moment thousands of peo-ple ment, thnt meets the State's responsi -so we are informed by hon. members . bilities in the matter ·in a much more opposite-who have not the ordinary effectit'c wt\y than would be possible hy means of subsistence. Because of that, continuing the aviation school at Rich I feel that the public servants ought to mond, into which we cantrot hope to get be satisfied with the proclaimed: holiday, students because of the great cost in without acting upon the hon. member's volved in living so 'fa'r from home; nor suggestion. do I think that the State should assume ' the responsibility o£ teMhing actual :fly GOVERNMENT SAVINGS 'BANK NEW ing to students. BUILDINGS. Mr. OAKES: In view of the1report'in REMISSION OF INTEREST PAY the press that the Savings Bank Com• MENTS. mi£sioncrs have purchased a property in. :Mr. ASHFORD: I desire to ash: the Castlercagh-street at a cost of £200,000, Secretary for Lands if he is rccei ving Questions and Answers. [1'4: DEc., 1920.] Q·ucstions and Answe'rs.' '3587 , applications from returned soldiers for NEWCASTLE WATER SUPPLY. tho remission of interest payments on l!Ir. GAIWISEH: I desire to ask tbe their lands during their period of ab Secretary for Public Works whether he sence, and if so, is he granting any of is aware of the serious position in Now those applications? castle, ow.iug to the inability of the )Ir. LOUGHLIN: Yes. Applications 'Hunter District Water and Sewerage arc being considered on their merits, and Board to supply sufficient water for in tl:.e bulk of them are being approved of. dustrial purposes, on account of the back wardness of the Chichester sche.me ~ Further, is he aware that several tests Tl:~.AMS FOR WOMEN ONLY. have been made as to the practicability llir. O'HALLORAN: In the absence of obtaining water for industrial pur of the 11Iinister for Railways, I wish to poses from the sand dunes at Stockton? ask the Premier whether, in view of the What is at present preventing progress. fact that the trams on the Coogee, Ken · being made 'vith the work of obtaining sington and Clovelly lines are unduly water for industrial imrposes from the· crowded on race days, especially for an -Stockton sandhills ~ hour or so prior to the commencement Mr. ESTELL: I am aware that there of the races, and that it is wellnigh is a serious position arising at Newcastle· impossible for women to gain a seat in at present with regard .to water for in the tran1s during those hours, he will dustria I pnrposes. This question is not. ask the Connnissioner.:; to consider the .a matter of to-day ; it is a question that advisableness of runnrug trams during has been in existence for several years .. those busy hours on race days for women ·when it was brought before the late Gov only? ernment, it dceided, after an inqury by· the Public Wod~R Committee, to con J'lfr, J. STORRV: I will make repre ·struct the Chichester dam, so as to supply sentations to the Minister for Railways. . the whole of the needs of the district, . both for domestic and industrial pur S'CNDAY DEPUTATIONS. poses. At the same time, an investiga tion has been made by the engineers from. llir. HOSKINS: Will the Minister of the Public Work~ Department with re Public Instruction inform me whether it g-ard t.o the pennanency of any supply is a fact that quite recently the Teacher's that might be obtained from the sand Association asked him.to receive a depu dnnes at Stod~ton. They were under tho· tation, and that he informed them that impression that there was no possible the only time he could receive them was .chance of getting a permanent supply· on Sunday? Is it a fact that they from that source. Now, an application. ·promptly refused to meet him on Sun has been made to me by Mr. Deiprat, for day; and is it in accordance with the .the purpose of allowing him to put ·pipes Government's policy that Ministers are under the ·river, .to conv-ey ·water for ·in-· going to receive deputations on the Sab dustrial purposes 1;o the J3roken HilL .bath Day? Proprietary· Company's works. J'.i.f1:. MUTCH: With regard to the .tw:o 1\fr. BALL: I think that that ap_plication' first questions-yes. ·:As it.is well known came to me! that all M-inisters who .attend ·to~their Mr. ESTELL: The application 'lllay· business have been working here ·night {;&..ve been .made to the late Minister;: after night .and morning .after mowing, but I would like the House to know -that, it would have been quite impossible, at as far as the supply of water for indus this stage of the session, for ·me to re trial, as well as for da.me::tic purposes, is ceive deputations at all unless I received concerned, the ·Hunter District W~ter them on Sunday. May I say that I am \RD.d. Sewerage 'Boatd are the ·people·who rather astonished, in view of the fact-that lla:ve :fiull control. I stated that I could I am giving every Sunday 'in the service .not' interfere with the ·board, which had of the teachers, ·that ·their .own council •been appointed on ,statutory authority, was not prepared to give one :hour 011 :and that jt was for tbe applicant to ap that day. ·r-Touch the board in order to come to 3588 Question.s and A n.swers. [ASSEMBLY.] Qucstion.s and A n.swcrs. some arrangement with regard to the week ? Will the Minister take steps to supply of this water for industrial pu-r try to prevent corporate bodies from poses. I understand that Mr. Delpr.at profiteering on their employees? has done so, but that no agreement bas Mr. ESTELL: I am not aware of the been arrived at, and they now want me fact, but I will make inquiries, and see tci override the decision of the board. what I ca~1 do in the matter. This I have refused to. do. It is a board appointed under a special Act of Parlia GILGANDRA TO COLLIE RAILWAY. ment, and it is wholly responsible for an;y Mr. ASHFORD: Can the Secretary action that may be taken for the purpose for Public Works give the House any of supplying water for industrial and information as to when he intends to .go other purposes to people in and around on with the work of constructing the the Newcastle district. Gilgandra to Collie railwayiine? J\fr. ESTELL: On.-account of the large J. J. TALBOT'S CHARGE-COUNSEL number of railways now in course of. BRIEFED. construction it is impossible to state allJ 1-.fr. OAKES: I desire to ask the Attor definite time when tbis work can be n<;)y-General if he will let the House started. know to-morrow the names of the coun sel engaged in the case now before Mr. SOLDIERS' APPLICATIONS FOR Justice Pring-that is, the counsel LAND. briefed by the Crown-and also the Mr. JAQUES: As regards homestead names of- any other counsel whom the farm areas in general, and especially Government may be under any obliga homestead farm area No. 1,231, at Bega, tion to pay in connection with that case~ will the Secretary for Lands see that :fifr. McTIERNAN: The counsel an application lodged by a returned briefed by the Crown to assist the com soldier will get priority over otlier ·ap :mission are Mr. J. C. Gannon, K.C., plications? and llfr. Redshaw. I think they are the Mr. J,OUGHLIN: I do not know any names of the two gentlemen. At any thing about the particular case referred rate, I am sure about Mr. Gannon. But to by the han. member, but I am cer with regard to the other counsel ap tainly not going to· interfere with the pearing before that commission, no ques matter at all. tion bas arisen up to the present. to my Mr. OAKES: That means you will not 'knowledge ·as to •the responsibility for give any preference? their fees. Mr. LOUGHLIN: No. , ll'lr. ·OAKES: There is no obligation on Mr. JAQUES: I think that the llfinis ·the Crown~ ter did not quite catch my question. :Mr. llfcTIERNAN: So far as the de What I said was, as regards homestead partment is concerned, at the present farm areas in general,· and particularly ti.me the question has not yet arisen. with respect to No. 1,231 at Bega, will' Mr. OAKES: Does the Minister say the J'lfini!'tcr see that a returned soluil3r's that there is no obligatiqn upon hi.m as application receives priority over. other .Attorney-General~ applications~ . Il£r. McTIERNAN: I am not in a J'lfr. LOUO.J:ILIN: No. I understand ·poJ;;ition to say at the present time.· The th:e. question .perfectly. I will not. question of the responsibility of the de Mr. JAQUES: You will not do that? pa~tment for fees has not yet misen. .Mr. J.. OUGHLIN: I cannot "see" it, as a matter of fact. WATER BOARD'S EMPLOYEES' Mr. BALL: With regard to the ex · . RENTS. change of land which took place with .. ''Thir. ELY: Is. the Secretary for Public Mr. Falkiner, some considerable time \Vork's aware that ~vhen the basic wage ago, did the late Secretary for Landa, ~·as recently advanced by Ss. a week, Mr. Ashfo;rd, make a distinct. state the ·},fetropolitan Board of Water Supply ment in connection with that exchange and Sewerage put up the rent of its of land, that the exQhange was made en:iployees' residences by 5s. 2d. per really with the understanding that tlie Personal Expla?Wtion. [14 DEc., l!:l20.] Claim of Captain Wootten. · 3589 land was to be available for returned must have fallen asleep. I was informed s'oldiers only 1 Will the present Minis about 4 o'clock that my vote had been ter give effect to that promise by the registered against that amendment. late Minister in regard to those lands Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem by making them .available only for re ber had an opportunity, or he should turned soldiers~ have availed himself of the opportunity; :Mr. LOUGHLIN: As far as I (!an to explain what he now wishes to explain recollect, those lands ar~ being made to the House at the time. I am sure available for ordinary settlement, and that the Chairman of Committees would will remain available for ordinary set liave permitted him.t0 make such an ex tlement. planation. I rule that it is n.ow too late for the bon. member 'to make such ex- :Mr. BALL: You will give no prefer planation. · ence to soldiers? :Mr. LOUGHLIN: No. It is my in ASSENT TO BILLS. tention that the land shall be available Royal assent. to the following bills for everybody. I think that this making reported:- of land specially available for returned Parliamentary Elec\ions (Casual Vacancies) soldiers is simply idiotic, and I am not Bill. . going to persevere in it. Industrial Arbitration (Amendment) Bill. 1.£r. ASHFORD: Is the Secretary for Lands aware that when the ·exchange of CLAIM OF CAPTAIN WOOTTEN. lands at Tuppal for certain lands at M·ajor SHILLINGTON .(Western. Widgiewa was made with Mr. Falkiner Suburbs) [5.59], moved: it was made upon terms that were very (1) That .a select committee be ap-· favourable to the Crown, and that Mr. pointed to inquire into and report upon. Falkiner made a stipulation that the th.s administration· of the fund consti land should be made available for re tuted under the provisions of the National turned soldiers~ Is the Minister aware Relief Fund Act, 1914. and to investigate that when Mr. Falkiner made that stipu and report upon thedaim of one Captain·. W. 1<'. 'Vootten to receive benefits from lation the Surveyor-General or the Under ·such fund. Secretary for Lands was present? (2) 'l'ha.t such committee consist of Mr .. Mr. LOUGHLIN: I have not the TJang, Mr. Arkins, Major Connell, 1\ir. J. R .. Lee, Mr. Main, Mr. Murphy, Mr_ smallest details of that transaction in Perdria,u, and the mover. . my mind, but if the bon. members will set the matter out specifically on the He said: I do not thiiik it is necessa~y business-paper, I will endeavour to me€t for me to go into minute details in con their specific questions. · nection with this case, as· .the Hon .. the Premier, and the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer are well aware of the facts. PERSONAL EXPLANATION. During the discussion on the Treasurer's. ;]IIajor CONNELL: I wish to offer n estimates I dealt with the case rather. personal explanation with regard to a fully. . vote I ·gave on Friday morning. On :M:r. LAZZA!HNI: If this committee is Thursday, for the third consecu~ive appointed do vou think it will be able time, this House had an nll-night:sitting. to deal with the matter this session~ Speaking for myself, and I believe for a :Major SHILLINGTON: I think so. number of others who were constantly This is one of the saddest' cases that has in attendance, I felt that the limit ·of . come under my notice. Captain "\V ootten physical endurance had nearly been served in the South African war, and left reached. these shores, when quite a lad, with the :Mr. SPEAKER: Order! promise of responsible men ringing in :Major CONNELL: Somewhere about his eats that any soldier·who served in 4 o'clock an amendment ·to the· Fair that campaign would not suffer want as Rents Bill was moved, with which I the result of . any disability through '!l•as heartily in accord.· I had previously wounds or sickness. ·captain Wootten· was gone t'o the back Progressive bench, and very: seriously wounded in actio1~, re.ceiv- 3590 , Claim of Captain Wootten. [ASSEMBLY.] Claim of Captain Wootten. ing bullet wounds through the head and that in the year 1!Jl6 they transferred to the lungs, and it was considered that his the Amelioration Committee the sum of recovery was impossible. However, he £17,500. The Amelioration Committee made what we might call a miraculous was concerned with looking after the recovery, and, apparently, regained his needs of soldiers who J1ad ser~ed in th!:} nol'mal health. He was able to resume present war, and who were in particu his civil occupation, and eventually quali larly needy circnmstance.s. The object fic:d.aud recei\ed an appointment on the of that fund was quite a laudable one, permanent staff of the military forces of but it seems ·to me that the trustees the Common";ealth. He served in that of the National Relief Fund were not .capl1City for a couple of years. Then his justified in transferring this large sum -wounds came against him, and ·it was of money and diverting it from the pur found that he was suffering from tuber pose for which it was intended to another · military members of the committee. I proposals; but I do not think that it do not wish it to be understood that I would be in the interests of suffering am putting any difficulty in the way of humanity if we were to nationalise our justice being done. hospitals. The accommodation provided Major SHILLINGTON (Western for patients would not be as good as at Suburbs) [6.19], in reply: I trust the present, nor would the arrangements for ¥inister will not oppose the appoint medical attention to the inmates of the. ment of the committee. hospitals be as efficient as they are to Mr. LANG: I am not opposing the day. The doctors who attend patients appointment of the committee, but I am in our public hospitals at the present merely suggesting that its personnel time include many of our most eminent should be altered! medical men, who act without fee or Major SHILLINGTON: I must con reward, and the result is that we have fess that I wanted a committee that the best of service rendered by one of would be sympathetic, but I thought the best bodies of men· in New South that the members whose names are 'Vales. I would' be very reluctant to suggested would give the matter fair interfere with the present system so far and impartial consideration. I would. as medical attention is concerned, be like to add to the committee the names cause I feel satisfied that if our hos of two bon. members on the Govern pitals were nationalised we should not ment side, the bon. member Mr. Ely have such a satisfactory medical ser and the bon. member Mr. Fitzgerald, vice as we have at present. It would be who are present and who are prepared necessary to make permanent appoint to act. ments to the medical staff, and even Motion further amended, by adding the though we secured the best medical men names of 1\1:r. Ely and Mr. J. J. Fitz available we would not have the wide gerald, and agreed to. range of talent and experience that we PUBLIC HOSPITAL FINANCES. have now placed at our disposal. Then again, large· sums of money are sub Mr. HOSKINS (Western Suburbs) scribed towards the upkeep of the public [6.21], moved: hospitals by way of annual subscription, (1) '!'hat a select committee be ap~ pointed to inquire into and report upon and the institutions are also assisted by the best method of putting the publ;c benefactions under the .wills of deceased hospitals of the State on a financial basis. persons, and these donations go a long (2) That such committee consist of Dr. way towards relieving the Government A:rthur, l\:fr. Bruntnell, Captain Chaffey, S1r Thomas Henley, l\fr. Jaques, l\ir. of its responsibilities. Here again we Simon Hickey, Mr ..Johnston, 1\Ir. Bnt need to be careful not to interfere with tenshaw, Mr. Quirk, and the mover. the spirit of charity which imbues the He said: I doubt whether there will be Australian people. Those who cannot sufficient time to permit of a proper. render financial aid, give their time and inquiry being made unless the proposed services, which are just as valuable in select committee obtains permission to the interests of these institutions. The sit during the recess. The question of Treasurer knows how difficult it is to financing our public hospitals has provide for these institutions, and that engaged the attention of the present and the pressure on their resources is becom many previous Governments, and many ing more acute every month. It is very proposals have been put forward with a. nece ·~ Gun License Bill. .[14 DEc., 1920.] Electric Lighting Bill. 3593 Mr. LANG: Is it the bon. member's idea possession, sale, and hire of guns and fire to relieve the Government of the re arms; to prohibit the use, possession, or sale of maxim silencers, and for other sponsibility? . purposes connected therewith or inciden 111:!·. HOSKINS: I could not think of tal thereto. that for a moment. I wish it were pos He said: Hon. members will realise that sible. · Not only the hon. member, but this is a bill which has been asked for all his successors in office in the Treasury 'for a considerable time, and latterly the would be thankful. careless use of firearms, carried by all Mr. BnooKFIELD: Charity is a poor sorts of people, has convinced us that thing to rely upon I the time has arrived when the evil should be checked. The bill provides Mr. HOSKINS: I do not know that it is. that children under 16 years of age shall not be able to purchase or carry Mr. BnooKFIELD: I would not like to firearms. we all know the enormous rely upon it; it is too precarious I number of accidents that occur through Mr. HOSKINS : It is a great aid. I children using pea rifles. In country submitted this motion in the hope that districts where people require to use fire it would be possible for a select com arms for the destruction of vermin, mittee to obtain the lateSt information licenses are to be granted free of charge. available. The Treasurer, as an old We realise that, in many cases, country municipal representative, will remember people must keep a firearm of some the great controversy there has· been in description for the purpose of destroying municipal circles in regard to this mat noxious ·animals and vermin. The bill ter, and the strong recommendations that further provides that' any person selling have been brought forward from time t~ firearms shall keep a register of his sales. time by the association. 1.1:y view is The responsibility is upon him not· to that we could very well afford to act upon sell to a child under 16 years of certain of the recommendations that haYe age; and in the event of a child carrying been made. I am sorry that I was not a gun, the parent must be held' respon able to bring this question forward at sible. an earlier stage. I am afraid that the Question resolved in the affirmative. session is so· far advanced thcit it will Resolution reported and agreed to. not he po!=;~ible to do very much. But if Bill presented>and read a first time. the Committee could have met, I am sure that it would have been able to MUNIOTP AL COUNCIL OF SYDNEY bring in a report which would l1ave been ELECTRIC J"IGHTING (AMEND extremely helpful to the Minister in MEN'!') BILL. framing a bill. The work will have to SECOND READING. be done sooner or later, and it seems J\fr. DOOLEY (Bathurst), Colonial to me that the course I am suggesting Secretary [7.581, _moved: is the best method possible for obtain ing up-to-date information in regard to That this bill be now read a second time. the affairs of these institutions. He -said: This measure, which was in Debate adjourned. troduced in the Legislative Council, [M1'. Speaker left the chair at 6.81 p.m. makes provision for the City Council to The HotLse 1·esumecl at 7.45 p.m.] go before a Supreme Court judge and Gove?'nment · business callecl on in pur ask that it be permitted to increase or snance of sessional order of 30th Sep decrease, as the case may be, the price tember. charged for electricity. It also provides for the cancellation of certain existing agreements. The reason for the. coun GUN LICENSE BILL. cil asking for this power is that the In Committee: price· of labour, coal, and various other Mr. DOOLEY (Bathurst),. Colonial commodities has increased enormously 'Secretary [7:52]', moved: du,ring t.he last five or ten years, and the That it is expedi.ent tO bring in a bill to ·council find that it is impossible to carry regulate and license the use, carriage, . 'on the service under existing .conditions. 3594 Municipal Council of [ASSEMBLY.] Sydney Electric Lighting. The same concessions were recently given not see any signs of a decrease taking in the bill which allowed the Gas Com place. While I offer np serious objection pany to increase the price of gas, and the to this bill, which in all probability is City Council is merely asking for the required for the reasons the Minister has same concession to be extended to it. l'he given us, at the same time I think we are matter must go before a Supreme Cou;rt entitled to a little more information than judge--before a properly constituted tri we have had from the :Minister in con bunal-before the increases are gTanted. nection with this matter. Question proposed. 11fr. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK (Bathurst) Sir GEORGE FULLER (Wollondilly) [8.4] : I have not had an opportunity of [8.1]: The information given by the hon. reading the debate which took place on gentleman is very brief indeed_ The bill this bill in the Legislative Council where certainly makes provision that before the this measure originated, but according to charges can be either increased or de the statement made by the representative creased the City Council must make ap of the Government in that Chamber one plication to a judge of the Supreme Court. of the justi:fications for the introduction The reason the City Council is asking for of this bill was that it was necessary 'to this bill at the present time is, as the :Min increase the electric light rates, in order ister said, on aceount of the all-round in that a larger revenue should be produced, crease in the prices of labour and material, because of the increase in the wages, the which have gone up considerably during increase in the cost of coal, and the the past ten years. It is quite true that general all-round increase in relation to the Gas Company has already obtained the paraphernalia used in connection permission to do what the City Council is with an electric lighting system. Mr. nqw asking permission to do, but from Kavanagh, amongst other things, quoted the reports which we hear from time to these figures which are significant: time it seems to me that the affairs of the From 1910 up to 1919 inclusive a surplus great city of Sydney are not managed in was earned each year with the exception the economical and thorough fashion of 1917, when a loss of about · £20,000 which we are entitled to expect at the was made. The aggregate of the surplus hands of the City Council. I think the earned from 1910 to 1919, inclusive, was Minister should have given some infor approximately £391,000. . The sum of mation as to the way in which these £22,000 has been put back in to the busi ma~ters are administered. Merely to ness and in that way in ten years from come here and tell us that because the 1910 to 1919, £391,000 was taken out of cost of material and labour has gone up the business, and £22,000 returned. This the City Council should have the right to gives the users of the council's elec go before a judge and ask :for an increase tricity a net advantage of £369,000. in the .Price of electricity does not· seel!:\ From that standpoint everything looks to me to meet the position. I think we very well and it seems to me that there is are entitled to know what the ratepayer.> scarcely any justification for asking· for . of the city of Sydney are paying !"or light an increase .in the electric light charges at the present time. The amount of the at the present time, and we might reason increase is set out in clause 8, but before ably e.'!:pect the City Council, which has agreeing to extra taxation being imposed not shown very much aptitude in th11 on the ratepayers of Sydney, with all re matter of controlling some phases of its spect to the Minister, ·I think we are business, to go on for another year or SQ, entitled to a little more information than so that we might have an opportunity of he has given us. It seems to me that discovering what the effect of the altered once we get the matter before a judge and conditions really is. the price of electric light is increased, for Mr. DooLEY: The council has to apply the reasons speci:fied by the Minister, to a judge for an increase in the rate! there will be a great difficulty in getting Mr. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK: I ad any decrease. We have found during the mit that what the hon. gentleman states past years that when these applications is perfectly correct .and. that it pffers a are made and increases are granted for safeguard. The assumption that the proper reasons in most instances, we .do council will have to go before a tribunal [Mr.. Dooley. lllunicipal Council of · [i4 DEc., 1920.] Sydney Electric Lighting. 3595 is an indication that the hon. gentleman Mr. DooLEY: If this measure is not and those associated with him are under passed it means that the extension of the impression that the City Council has the electric lighting system to the various some legitimat.e claim to an increase. suburbs will not eventuate! Mr. DooLEY: There is no reason why Jlfr. HOSKINS: We can teach these the City Council should be handicapped people that they ought to economise, and any more than any other institution! that they cannot keep on passing tho :M:r. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK: No. I extra costs on to the general public, be am quite prepared to admit that as a cause, after all, the money has to be tribunal will have to determine whether earned by the workers. I say that the the increases will have to be granted or Government is acting wrongly in this not, one's natural opposition to giving respect. I would point out to the Minis the City Council any more power tha.n it ter the danger of excluding other elec tric light companies from the operation posse~ses at the present time is to some . extent removed. As a matter of fact, I of this bill. What is he going to do with do not know that we should not be en regard . to the Balmain Electric Light titled to restrict the opportunities of the ing Cornp:my ~ City Council to the greatest possible ex Mr. DooLEY: I am going to include tent.. them! :Mr. DooLEY: There will be an amend Mr. HOSKINS: As a matter of fact, ing Act next session ! I do not feel inclined to give the powe;: Mr. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK: If you to either of them. cannot amend the City Council you Nr. DooLEY: There will be an amend- ought to amend it out of e."istence alto ment to that effect! · gether. Mr. HOSKINS: It would be very un 1fr. HOSKINS (Western Suburb~) just to give power to the City Council [8.10] : We are treading on rather dan to allow it to appear before the court gerous groull(l with regard to the City and obtain an increase in electric light Council. With the council entering rates without giving the same right to into wild-cat schemes, such as the under the other peop~ taking business, coal-mines, and so forth, Mr. DooLEY: All of them should have ]t is no wonder that it wants more the right to go before a judge! money. lvfr. HOSKINS: The various con Mr. DooLEY: Before the hon. mem tracts to which I have referred have been ber goes further, might I remind him entered into for very lengthy periods th3t everybody else can raise the pric~s with the various municipalities. In of commodities without restriction. The some instances contracts extending over Australian Gaslight Company can go be fifty years have been entered into, and fore the judge, and we are simply asking it is a very serious matter if the metro that the City Council electric light politan councils have to raise the rates department shall have the same right as to the users of electricity. ·The fact anyone else to go before a Supreme Court that the Minister is going to include the judge to see whether or not it is· justified Balmain people makes the thing a little in asking for an· increase! more honest. We should not encourage Mr. HOSKINS: I quite understand the City Council to continue its wild that, but there is this feature: the City cat schemes and to draw the last drop Council has entered into a contract to of blood out of the people. The time l1as supply electricity to the metropolitan come when we ought to put a screw on councils at a certain rate, and what I the e."travagant expenditure indulged in want t€1 know is whether that contract is by the City Council from time to time. to go to the wall~ We are by legislation Questi.-Jn resolved in the arlh:;mativo. going to make it legal for. the City Bill read a second time. Council to depart from. the contracts it has made with the various municipal In Committee: councils. Clauses 1 to.15 inclusive agreed to. 3596 A1·chitects Bill. [ASSEMBLY.) Architects .Bill. Mr. Hosrrrns: Does the }£inister intend largely due to the high character and : to recommit clause 1 so as to provide for special qualifications of Mr. James bringing the Balmain Electric Lighting Nangle, the superintendent. I move: Company within the provisions of the That after the word ""7ales" where measure~ secondly occurring in subclause (1) the Mr. DOOLEY: I will recommit the following words be inserted : "the lec turer in charge of the Department of bill in. order to carry out my promise. · Architectur.3 at the Sydney Technical Mr. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK: This is a College." bill dealing wholly with the City Coun Mr. AsHFORD: If Mr. Nangle is ap cil, and prov~des for the variation of pointed he will be a most excellent man, certain agreements entered into by the but his appointment could have been council, and you could not very well provided for without making ·this deal with the Balmain Electric Light amendment, because, besides the gentle ing Company in this measure. Has th(? men who are enumerated five other per Minister taken legal advice~ ·sons are to be appointed by the Mr. DOOLEY: Yes. We can do ~s Governor! I have promised. Mr. MUTCH: Yes. But owing to our Bill reported without amendment; re making an additional specified appoint port adopted. ment I propose to reduce the other appointments to four. I may add that }ir. Nangle is the superintendent and ARCHITECTS BILL. not the lecturer in charge.· (consideration resumed In Committee Amendment agreed to. from 2nd December, page 3135): vide Clause as amended agreed to. Clauses 2 to 4 inclusive agreed to. Clauses 6 t.o 12 inclusive agreed to. Clause 5. (1) The members of the first board shall be the head of the Facuity Clause 13. (1) Subject to the pro- of Architecture in the University of visions of this Act, a ·person shall be Sydney, the president of the Institute of entitled to be registered as an archi Architects of New South \Vales, the tect who-- president of the Architects' Association of (a) has passed the prescribed exam- 5 New South "'ales, and five other persons . - ination; or appointed by the Governor. (b) holds a prescribed degree, diploma, or license of competency from thtJ University of Sydney or the Syd- :Mr.· MUTCH (Botany), Minister of ney Technical College; or . 1 o Public Instruction [8.25] : One of the (c) holds a prescribed degree, diploma, or license of competency from qualifications for registration is the some university, institute, college, holding of a prescribed degree diploma or school outside New South Wales or license o£ competency from the Syd approved of by the boar~, and also 1~ ney Technical College. It is generally either passes the prescnbed exam recognised that the Sydney TechniM.l ination or· shows to the satisfac· tion of Lhe board that ir: the coun College examination is a very severe try or State where such degree, one and those who hold a diploma from diploma, or license was issued 20 the college are thought very highly of persons registered as architects under this Act are entitled to prac by the profession. In addition to under tice architecture bv virtue of such going technical instruction at the col registration· and \vithout further lege the students have the benefit of exnmination; or · 25 practical building e:h."Perience, and there (d) holds a degree, diploma, or lic~nse of competency from· some archit.ec fore they do not stand at any disad tura.l college, school, or pu_blio vantage as compared with those who institution in a British possessiOn, pass through the University. I propose or in some foreign country a.p- 30 to place on the board the lecturer in proved of bv the hoard. and also ~atisfie~ the b0'1.rcl that he pooseosP~ charge of the department of architec the requisite knowledge and· skill ture at the Sydney Technical College. for the pra1ctipe of arc~itectu~e; or I think hon. members .will agree that (e) ·has for four years Immediately 35 the standard which has been maintained preceding the commencement: of at the Sydney Technical College has this Act practised as an arch1t~ct in New South Wales. or has for been a very high one, and this has been six years immediately pr_eceding Architects Bill. [14 DEc., 1920.] Architects Bill. 359i 40 the commencement of this Act been Sir GEORGE FULLER (Wollondilly) engaged as an ·architectural assist [8.38] : I move: ant in public or private service in New South Wales as his sole or That the following paragraph be m main source of livlihood; or sertcd to follow paragraph (d) :-"(d) 4.5 (f) has for three years immediately (i) Provided that a reciprocal concession preceding the commencement of be granted by such country, State, or this Act and, subsequently to his possession referr-ed to in paragraphs (c) attaining ·the age of twenty-one and (d). years practised as n.n architect or This amendment will establish our right 50 been engaged as an architectural assistant in public or private ser- to reciprocity in regard to countries, vice in New South Wales as hi> States, or possessions whose diplomas we sole or main source of livelihood recognise. and within· one year from the com 55 mencement . of this Act passes the Mr. MuTCH: I am prepared to accept prescribed examination; or that amendment. (g) has for four years immediately preceding the commencement of Amendment agreed to. this Act; and subsequently to his Amendments (by Mr. MuTCH) agreed tO attaining the age of twenty-one to: :>ears practised as an architect Ill New South \Vales, and within om. That paragraph (e) be struck out and year from the commencement of the follewing be inserted in lieu thereof : this Act passes the prescribed ~'has for four years immedia_tely preced 65 · examination; or mg the commencement of th1s Act prac (h) satisfies the board that he :s tised as an architect in New South \Vales engaged in the acquirement of pro as his sole or main source of livelihood; fe%ionnl knowledge in architcctu ,. ., or" and passes within three years nf That the following new paragraph be in the c-ommencement of this Act the 70 serted :..:....."(f) has for six years preceding prescribed examination. the commencement of this Act been en Sir.GEORGE FULLER (Wollondilly) gag,ed as an architectural assistant in public or private service in New South [8.35] : Provision is made for the regis \Vales as his sole or main source of liveli tration of persons who hold degrees, hood; or" diplomas, or licenses from universities. ·That the following new paragraph be institutes, colleges, or schools outside of inserted :-"(g) during portion of Mr. MUTCH: He must go before the bill, as framed, gives the fullest oppor board and satisfy them that he is com tunity to qualified men to become regis petent. tered. The object is to protect the com Mr. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK: Satisfy them munity. All the paragrap~s so far in that he had· been competent, or that ihe serted safeguard the interests of those was competent at the time of the exam who are able to pass the necessary exam ination? ination, as well as the public. But if the J\{r. l\·IDTCH: Satisfy them that be Minister is prepared to agree to a pro had been a competent teacher for four posal of this kind, he will be opening the years. door to men who may not be able to prove Amendment agreed to. their qualifications by any examination. Mr. QUIRK (Balmain) [8.51]: I Because a mall" has had six years' ap move: rrenticeship, it does not follow that he is That the following be inserted after able to pass an examination. paragraph (h) : "or has completed si,x Mr. MuTCH: I am prepared to take the years' apprenticeship or service as an architectural assistant to an architect sense of the Committee! registered under this Act, subject to the Mr. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK: The approval of the board." Minister has introduced a bill which has ·where a student or apprentice has served been called for for a considerable number for a period of years, and has satisfied a of years, and it would be suicidal to pass qualified man with whom he has served of it with such a blemish upon it. No doubt his abilities, I think ·some provision there may be hard cases, but all that can should be made to. allow him to come be reasonably expected has been provided within the scope of the bill. . for in the bill. Sir GEORGE FuLLER: Does that mean Mr. MuTCH: I understand that the tliat he is to escape examination? hon. member Mr. Quirk does not wish to J\fr. QUIRK: I do not suggest that. I · press his amendment. say on the completion of his apprentice Amendment by leave withdrawn. ship or service. Clause· as amended agreed to. Mr.• J. 0. L. FITZPATRICK: Provided .he Clauses 14 to 26 inclusive agreed to. passes the, examination? Clause 27 (Regulations). 1\'Ir. QUIRK: I submit that if he has served an ·apprenticeship of six years with Mr.J.C.L.FITZPATRICK(Bathurst) [9.1] : This clause states, "The Governor, a duly qualified registered architect, he upon the recommendation of the board, would undoubtedly be qualified to come may make regulations for the carrying within the scope of the bill. out of the provisions of this Act," and Sir GEORGE FuLLER: Not necessarily amongst other things prescribe the "fees so I payable under this Act." I presume that Mr. QUIRK: Perhaps the Minister can that refers to fees in connection with suggest some other amendment which will registration and so forth, and not to fees provide for a body of men who are worthy to be paid to the architects. of consideration. · If we provide that :Mr. MuTCH: No! their admiosion must be subject to the CJlause as read agreed to. approval of the bonrd, it is very unlik€ly Bill reported with .amendments; report that tlle hoard would allow men to come aclopted. into competition with qualified 'Practi tioners, who could not satisfy· them that they were fully qualified. GOVERNMENT SAVINGS DANK (RURAL BANK) BILL. 1fr. J. C. L. FITZPATRICir (Bathurst) f8.55]: I should like to ]mow whether the BECO:!'.""D. READING. 1\:Linister proposes to accept the amend Captain DUNN (Wammerawa),:Min ment? ·ister for .Agriculture .[9.6], moved: Mr. J\fGTC'II: I am prepared to consider That this b.ill.be now read a second time. 'it! He said: In introducing this bill I would 1\fr. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK: I h.rrpe like to say·thatT have'been"heartencd in the Minister will not consider it. Tho my efforts to start what may be called [Mr. Mutch. Government Savings Bank [14 'DEc., 1920.] (Rural Bank) Bill. 3599 the initial stage of a system of rural any means at all. They will then be able credits by the very encouraging refer to come to this bank for accommodatio1;1; ences made by tile press generally. Al but they want the legal machinery _to though there has been very little criti help them to establish those societies. cism in the references which have been This bank is being established with ·a made to this matter, some critics haV'El view to providing funds to assist almost told us that the bill goes quite a long any class of primary producer at all. way, perhaps far enough for the present The terms of the bill are sufficiently wide stage of our development, and others to allow the commissioners to loan upon have felt that in one or two directions any security which they think sufficient, the bill hardly goes far enough. Be and I think that that is as wide as a bill tween those critics is the true line. The could possibly be. object of this bill is to lay the foundation I might say that we have not ven of a banking system which will, as the tured upon this new scheme of rural. result of legislation which I hope to give banking in any spirit of hostility to the effect to during the next session of this existing institutions. We realise that Parliament, result in a better and more they have done a great deal of excellent efficient system of rural finance than we work in the past. They have carried on have had in the past in N e:w South the production of this country and tided Wales. I referred to this bill, I think, the producers over times of trial and at the first-reading stage as the first in stress. When the Government Savings stalment on the part of the Government Bank Bill was first initiated in this of a scheme to finance the man on the House-l am speaking of the principal land. This bill provides for borrowers who hill-it was thought by a good many, can offer satisfactory security in assets and it was certainly expressed by several for the accommodation sought.for or bor- critics, that it was a blow aimed at the . rowers who have behind them the guaran existing banks, and that this bank would tees of persons of good financial stand~ not work in harmony or unison with them. ing. .As I said, another bill will be Notwithstand"ing those critics, the ad necessary next session to facilitate the vances to sett-lers branch of the· Govern formation of rural credit associations. ment Savings Bank -has been able to I have given that bill some considera work in perfect harmony side by side tion .already, but. I do not think; nor with the existing institutions, and it has does the Cabinet tliink, it would be ad done a great deal of excellent work, as ., visable to initiate the machinery in a private financial institutions also have, bill of. this character. This bill forms a in providing financial assistance to pri ground-work whereby societies of that mary producers. The importance of kind can be. .formed and organised, and · primary production and its general wel whose operations will later on be facil fare, we thirik, warrant the establish itated by the legislation ·\'Chich. I have ment of a bank which can devote itself for~snadowed. The object of this bill·is ~ore exclusively to primary industries. to provide the funds for .these societies: No doubt mm1y of the farmers are satis There appears to be a wide difference fied- .....:ith ~~e private banks and ;Will con between the co-operative credit societies tinue to 00 C:.:Si11BS.; with them just as of Europe and those obtaining in Ame they have in the past, hut' we believe we rica, in Canada, .and other places like will be able to meet a class of borrowe>. that, and the co-operative credit societies with this new institution who has always which will opera.te here: None of the experienced a great difficulty in .gett'ing countries which I have mentioned "have from the other banks the accom;nodation conditions analogous to New South he requires. Wales or Australian conditions gene "Mr. CocKS: Because .his security was rally. ·we are aniious to bring ·in a bad! system of rur-al credit societies, which, Captain DUNN: Because his security when organised properly, can ·obtain as may not be ample for those .institutions sistance from the .pank, in the· way ·.of nr tl1eir directors. I .think "IQ.Y. hem. loans generally, provided they are or fri~nd is bound to be opposed to any thing which has. for· its .object 'the ,assist- ganised. by the farmers themselves or by .. . 3600 Government Savings Bank (ASSE1tiBLY.] (Rural Bank) Bill. ance of the farmers, but in spite of that lished what we believe will be a very we believe this bill will to an extent creditable first instalment of rural finance. meet a number of settlers who perhaps The second deduction of the committee have not got security sufficient for the is thi~: ·private financial institutions. I want to The Agricultural Department is sue- warn hon. members generally not to ex- cessfully establishing agricultural bureaus pect too much from this bill at the out- which bring farmers into association for set. The operations of this bank will be purposes of mutual conoern. That is a second agency in :perhaps the stage of limitec!"by the resources at its command, formation to use for larger purposes. just the same as the advance to settlers We have been developing the agricul branch ... of th~ _Gov~rnment Savings tural bureaus. The system, of course, was Bank hll's been lmuted m the pas~. . """-tl~veloped long before I came into office, Mr. .Cocn:s: Are -you not makmg _th1s bi.lt it has gone on developing and lately a brarrch of the ~Government Savmgs eighteen additional bureaus have been Bank~ _formed, making a total oi 108 in New Captain DD""NN: Yes. We think there .'South Wales at the present time. Many is very great need f?r a bank of this kind, I of them are doing excellent work. I but it must be admitted that the money : do not want to weary hon. members with market is difficult, and we are not going the details, but the work of the :l'!filbru- . to adopt any ~aordin~,y methods to long and Miranda agricultural bureaus attract monej', 'the adoption of which is notable. They have organised farmers, might· perhaps ha;,ye the effect of putting and not only have they lectures by ex up interest in <>ther quar~ers. Taking perts at their meetings, but they have into consideration all the ·circumstances almost turned these bureaus into trad we have devised a scheme \vhich we think ing concerns. One of them, I notice, is best calculated to help the settlers in has a credit balance of about £3,000 the direction they desifi. .A select com- which is operating in the interests of its mittee of the Legislative Council has been members, and the other one last :l'!iarch inquiring into the question of ve;ricul- · had a credit of over £1,700. By co ture generally, and bas made four or five operatiYe effort they have assisted to reports dealing with the various phases cheapen the cost of commodities in many of that industry. It recently made a x;e- directions. Their own members are also port which deals particularly with the given accommodation in several direc question of rural credit and finance. I tions. So the recommendation of Sir belieYe I am correct in saying that the ···Joseph Carruthers's committee is given conclusions of that committee were re- effect to in the organisation of farmers ported the same evening as this bill was on co-operative lines, because they have laid on the table of the House. There was already taken up the :work themselves. 110 collaboration between myself or those The third concl'..~:;:ion of the committee is: assisting me in any way in connection Co-operative associations are coming with this bill to adopt the recommenda- into existence, but without the aid of a tions of that committee, but the fact :re- law to suit their peculiar needs and cir mains that we arrived e.t cor..dusions cumstances, legislation on this needs to which were somewhat mlalogous. I notice engage the attention of Parliament. that tho conclusions of that committee As I said, we propose to legislate during ·are given under five or six heads. This another session to give farmers facilities is what that committee says in its final for carrying this recommendation into conclusions: effect and to give them the legal status . Our Government Savings Bank has done to do so. The fourth conclusion of the e:r.:cel!.ent work, and it is an agency at committee is: h?..nd that should be used for the exten In these three agencies there will exist ~ion of the system, of which it only the nuclei for organising on a sound basis dea.ls with a part. -a plan of rural credit-both ior short That is exactly what we have done. We time and long time--adapted to our con i. :· have used the existing machinery of the· ditions in Australia, and . having the advanees to settlers branch of the Gov benefit of the experience of older land; ernment Savings Bank and. have estab· to guide as to details. [Captain Dunn. Government Sa11ings Banlc [14 DBc., 1920.] (Rural Bank) Bill. 3601 We have these three agencies and have will be necessary to draw upon the Treas practically adopted them in this bill. ury for the amount. The further con The fifth conclusion of the committee is: clusions of the committee are as follow: The less the State involves itself as a In the hands of such a body or bodies political organisation in the matter the (since probably. more than one will be better. But it has the obligation to estab necessary) the whole matter of long time lish the system to be controlled by some credits and short time credits to farmers independent body in charge of the insti and settlers should be entrusted. tution, and authorised to raise funds and A great deal of actual experience will to lend moneys according to the require be necessary, and probably some mistakes ments from time io time. and some losses will at times be inevit That independent boay is, of course, the able, but a beginning must be made, and Commissioners of the Government Sav from time to time the details will be ings Bank, who will be authorised to worked out far better than if at the outset conduct this bank and to loan without a full elaborated plan is designed. pressure of any kind upon any credit or These are the conclusions of the select any security which 1hey think fit. The connnittee on the methods of rural sixth conclusion of the committee is: finance for a country like Australia, and The State may have to assist in tho our conclusions which have been arrived initial stages with some capital, and to a at as the result of close consideration groater or lesser extent with guarantees, of the interests of our settlers coincide but it should draw strict lines, and abide with those of the committee. We be by them, not only to secure the independ lieve that it is not possible in the present ence of the body created by law, but state of the money market to venture against any influences of a political char upon any larger machinery for the pur acter direct or indirect. pose of establishing rural credits. We The guarantees which are provided by believe that this initial machinery will this bill are the guarantees of the be ample for the present and that we Treasury. This bank will be gum·an shall gradually develop and nnally have teed by the Treasury from the consoli as good a system of rural finance as is dated revenue, just the same as the Gov to be found in any part of the world. ernment Savings Bank is guaranteed, Rural finance has to some extent been but it is not likely that that will make practised in this State where the ad any draw upon the financial resources vances to settlers branch has done a great of the State. The advance to settlers deal of good work. In Victoria good branch of the Government Savings Bank wprk has also been dono under the Credit has never made any draw upon the finan Foncier system, and in Western Aus cial resources of the State, the losses of tralia under the Agricultural Bank Act that branch, I think, having been under and later under the Industries Assist 2 per cent. ance Act. The latter is an Act which was brought into being as an auxiliary ~Ir. OocKS: Do you mean to say that to the Agricultural Bank after the ihe losses have been :l per cent.~ drought of 1914. The Agricultural Bank Captain DUNN: The money not col in Western Australia was found to be lected to date is under 2 per cent., and insufficient to cope with a calamity like the president, llfr. O'Malley Wood, as a drought. Although the bank was do sures me that there will not be th'3 ing very good work it was not possible slightest difficulty about collecting it. to meet the drought emergency, and the That money is owing by people who have Industries Assistance Act was passed, been thrown back in their payments and has been in operation since 1915, owing to the unfortunate time they have in conjunction with the AgriculturaJ. been passing through. Only 2 per cent. Bank. Queensland has also done some of the money is owing. It has not neces thing in agricultural finance. but noth sarily been lost. It represents instal ing more than we have done here. ments that have not been paid on the due We have deliberately refrained from in dates, and it is not anticipated that it cluding a provision in this bill which 10 T 3602. Government S.avings Banlc [ASSEMBLY.]1 (Rural Bank) Bi.ll, would call upon the bank to deal with an e.."'actly the same way. We do not pro emergency like the drought of last year. pose to raise money for this legitimate We felt that such a crisis would require bank in that wa;y. · a great deal of consideration and' that A resume of what we liave done here it was not really banking business. Last may be· interesting; because many bon. year owing to the drought and tlie fact members and many persons outside may that it would' be impossible for many think that we have done very little· in: farmers to get in their crops or develop tlie matterof'ruraJ! finance, and: that alll their holdings the Government placed at the efforts in. that· direction have been the disposal of the Rural Industries made in other parts of'the world. I will' Board £1,000,000, and later on we made quote figures to sliow that after all' the a further sum available for tlie same operations in other countries are largely purpose. We hav~ not included any pro governed· by tho· amount of money at: vision which would require the Rural their disposal; and that they have not. Bank Commissioners to deal with a crisis made.more·money available per head o£: of that kind, because we thought such the population than. we have' done with, an arrangement would not be satisfac our machinery in the· past. This· bill, tory to the bank on account· of its not goes a good. deal fuxther ·than •anything being banking business and not having we have previously-done. Since.1899 the. the usual stability behind it. A crisis Government Savings .Bank, including. the like a big drought calls for more or less ousiness done by. the Advances to Settlers~ emergency work which has to be carried Board, before its amalgamation, has lent out quickly, and it would not be fair to £5,500,000 from. the· advance department. those requiring assistance to call upon to farmers,and settlers. These have for the rural bank. to do such work because. the most part beell' long: term. amoJ:tisn it could not carry out the work as ex tion· loans; In addition. £2;500;000 was peditiously as• it could be performed by advanced towards the purchase: of· sub a body established for that particular divided estates unde1: ·the Closer. Settle.. purpose. When later on we pass. a ment Promotion. Act. Direct loans of: measure. for the establishment of· co Savings Bank deposits to farmers and· operative credit associations and for en loans 'from the irrigation department to abling farmers to organise financially, the. extent of £600,000 were also made. we may be able to provide some machinery This gives a total oL£8,600,000 spead· over for meeting an emergency like that 1·ariOlL'l periods giving. an· aggregate of· which arose during the recent drought. £630,000 per: annum. or an average dur But we could not do so here with safety ing the last six years of approximately, to the depositors. It would not be fair. £700,000 per annum. On a population to the depositors and it would not be basis of 1,800,000,. the average for the fair to the commissioners to ask them past ten years,,this equals an average loan. to do what is really not banking work of £38. 17s. 9d. per 100 of the population. but emergency work. Under legislation We have heard· a good· deal about the such as I have foresha(}owed· we shall Rural Credit Associations, the Farm have to meet a drought crisis in the Loan Banks; and other· institutiuns· of future as it was met on the last occa rural finance in the United States; and sion, but with the experience we have when. millions are spoken o£ the impres gained we may perhaps be able to make sion. is conveyed that the loan arrange our machinery more efficient; We were ments there liave· been. much! more, strengthened in our determination by generous· than we have been.able to make what has been done in Western Australia, here. But l: shall be able. to· show that. and it would be hypocritical to say that this. is• not .. the case, and that the people this bank would meet a crisis like the who have the handling. of' the money last drought. The Western· Australian· play. for. safety all the time. They get a Agricultural ·Bank is financed not by the higher. percentage of interest. and: they do sale of debentures or by deposits but by not loan more.than 40 per cent. or. 50 per loans raised' by the Government and cent. of the valuation of tlie secuxity, nor placed a.t the disJ1osal o£. the bank. The do the. loans represent such- a large Indu~tr>PS Assistance Act is financed in amount per head. I have the figures here [ Cap.tai~ D:u,nn, ~ Governrnent Savings Bank (.14 DEc.,,l920.J (Rural Bank) Bill. 3603 which show that whereas we lend up to I think I have shown bon. members 66 per, cent. the loans in the United that. in the past :this State has done States do not reach more than 40 p_er cent. better than anY. other State, and that or in some cases where the ·security. is our fi.gw·es compare more than favour very good 50 per cent. Under the Farm ably with those of countries in which Loans Act tliey have been able to lend in up-to-date rural credit systems ha\e been tlie first two years £26,000,000, or at the established. I notice that the Agricul rate of'£13,000,000 per annum on a popu tural Industries Committee states: lation basis of 95,000,000. The popula There is undoubtedly most admirable tion to-day is really a great deal more- W{)rk done under these systems, but they about 110,000,000. The amount per 100 are based upon ci~·cumstances and condi ofthe population represented by the loans tions that have not their counterpart in is £13 18s.-as against _our £38 17s. ·9d. Australia. Here our lands are in process It: is. important to note in connection of alienation-in Europe they are alien with these loans amounting to £26,000,000 ated' and\ s.ettled for many years, whilst in Canada. and parts of the United States that just before the passing of the Act there is. no exact counterpart· of Aus it was estimated by the Department of tralian conditions. Agriculture that farmers were paying R per cent. interest and in extreme cases That· is what· we say after Qxhaustive inquiry. There-is not an exact counter up to 11~ per cent. .Other experts found that there were cases in which interest part here of the conditions that pre·vail was.charged up to 24 per cent. per annum, elsewhere. Our population. is more scat and, in New England up to 40 per cent. tered; our industries are less stable;. per anum. The fees ran from 2 per cent. and it. is not possible to organise rural to 5 per cent. for the mere renewal .of finance ·on the same lines as in other· loans. It was natural that on the passing countr~es. 'vVe are at a disadvantage so of legislation permitting of loans being far as farmers' organisations are con granted at reasonable rates of interest cerned, and yet we have achieved re there should be a great rush to get the sults even more .favourable than those benefit of the Act, and yet the total loans obtained in other countries. I quote these for the first two years did not amount to figures- to show that this State has not more than £13 18s. per 100 of the popula been altogether backward in assisting tion. Under these circumstances it the farming community, and I have lefl;' might be thought that the figures would out altogether the admirable work which have compared favourably with our own, has been done for· many years in assist-· but as a matter of fact our position is ing farmers. in the drought stricken areas very much more favourable than theirs. through the Rural Industries Board and li1 Manitoba the pioneer co-operative the operation of similar machinery. state, £360;000 was lent in two years, or Under this bill the commissioner's. £70 per. 100 of the population. These powers are greatly extended and will figures are certainly better than our own, enable them to help the agricul but'· we have to realise that these loans tural industry not only by long term were made in the two years when they amortisation loans, but by short term were driven like we are now to look for advances on practically every clas:; of' money wlierever it was to be secured. agricultural security. Mr. Elwood )feud, MX: J: B. :Morman, writing· on tlie who was the irrigation commissioner "Principles of· Credit," says: in Victoria for. a. number of years, and Eighty' per cent. of the farms in Sas established· the irrigation settlements katchewan aro mortgaged: In 1913 it there on a very much better footing, was almost· impossible to get loans on, reoently had something to say about farm mortgage from banks and mortJ;!;age tha assistance. given to settlers in New companies. The rate of interest ranged•. South Wales and Victoria. We are from 9 to 14. per cent. accustomed to speak of what has been Naturally the farmers took full advan done for irrigation and other settlers in tage of the easier terms, and this dis California, Egypt, and elsewhere, but position on their part would swell :the :Mr. lviead, who has been writing in refer returns for the two years. · ence to the methods by which irrigation 3604 Gove.mmoot Savings Bank [ASSEMBLY.] (Hu:ral Bank) Bill. settlers can be assisted in California, has Mr. AsHFORD: The separation - was directed attention to what has been done there; you merely want to make it more· in Victoria and New South Wales, and distinct? has recommended the people of Cali Captain DUNN: Yes. fornia to follow our example, particularly Mr. BAVIN: What is the rea.Son for the in regard to the assistance granted to vower given to the Savings Bank Com settlers on our irrigatio·n areas. In the missionrrs to differentiate the rural bank very country that we have been holding fr.om the existing bank? up as one that should be copied, J'lfr. }lead Captain DUNN: We have widened tells the farmers that they should copy tho door so much that under this bill the methods of New South Wales and the commissioners can lend money on Victoria in financing settlers on the irri any security they think sufficient. We gation areas. We could get no more strik have left the matter entirely within the ing testimony than that of a gentleman di~cretion of the commissioners them who has had experience in his own coun selves. try ·and has put some of our irrigation :settlements on their present basis. ]lfr. OAKES: Under the old Act they were confined to freeholds; this bill is Mr. OAKES: Do you include amongst wide enough to include leaseholds! primary producers the men whQ invest Captain DUNN: It is wide enough to in mining? include all tenures. The commissioners Captain DlTNN: It is not intended to can udvance money on any security include mining in this bill. It is a which they think sufficient. I have dealt measure designed purely for the protec in a gen€1l·al way with the proposed tion and furthering of the interests of amendments to the Savings Bank, and -primary producers and for rural financ stated that they arc largely machinery ing. The bill purports to divide the amenclrnentc; which the commisc;ioncrs Savings Bank into three departments. hnvc been wanting for a -number of 'The first is the Savings Bank proper. _'A years, and which will· greatly facilitate number of minor machinery amend the operations of the department. The ments are maJe which the commissioners provisions with 'respect to the rural bank have desired for a consid-erable period. have been drawn so widely that it will 'The hon. member Mr. Ashford, who be able to lend on any class of security had a_ bill prepared on much the same the commissioners think sufficient. It lines, will realise that the amendments will obtain its money in a little different relating to the Savinga Bank portion of way from what has prevs,iled in the past. the measure are really machinery_ amend The money under this bill will be drawri. ments which the commissioners ought to from three or four sources. First of all, han:. In the second place, the bill estab the commissioners will be empowered ~ lishes a .rural bank, and gives a well sel'l debentures. The rate of interest -defined power. It also establishes a third will be fixed by the commissioners from -class of banking, namely, the advances time to time. It will be current rates. -for homes department. As a matter of The money raised from those debentures fact, that is already established, but th.is may be earmarked for a specific pur bill effects certain necessary amendments pose-for the purpose of the homes ad vances :imd confers powers which the co=is department or for the rural bank ing department. There will be that ·sioners believe they ought to have. The differ(~ntiation. We will also take fi.-o;::f.'d rural bank itself does not attempt to deal depof'its of any amount. We will accept with funds for homes. The funds of the current accounts, and allow the deposi bank will, within the discretion of the tors to operate by cheque, as they do on ·commissioners; be available for interuse their ordinary accounts. in the departments. As I say, the rural An Hox. MEMBER: Will there be in bnnk does not pretend to supply funds terest on current accounts? for the building of homeS'; they will be Captain DUNN: No; It will be an supplied by the homes advances depart ordinary current account. It is pos ment, as it is now constituted. sible that our short loans to meet emer- [Captain Dun"n. Government Sa~ings Bank [14 DEc., 1920.] (Rural Bank) Bill. 3605 gcncie8 may be drawn from this source. I think I have made clear to bon. mem .We propose also to have deposit stock .bers the reasons that have actuated and such as is in operation in Victoria. That guided us in bringing in the bill. We re money is not available at call. Notice cognise its limitations, but we believe that has to l:ie given. It differs from money it is going to be of inestimable value to on current account in that way, and it the producing community as the years is more valuable to the bank. The pro go on. We propose, at present, to utilise tection will be found in some provision the. existing Savings Bank buildings. like this·: that depositors must give a We do not propose to enter upon any day's notice for every £10. That would great expenditure, either in purchasing mean ten days' notice in the case of a sites, in erecting buildings, or in rent withdrawal of £100. Subject to that ing buildings. We propose, as far as protection there is not likely to be an possible, to utilise the existing brancht>S injurious run on the bank. We propose of the Government Savings Bank. The to adopt this means of raising money commissioners will be able- to open because it has b10en successfully em branches or appoint agencies anywhere ployed in Victoria. Those are the vari in the State. ous sources through which we hope to ~fr. .AsiU'ORD: Do you contemplate draw supplies of money to provide ad . opening country branches of the rural \'ancrs to settlers. Later on, when this bank? has been established, we hope to have credit societies organised, which will be Captain DU:!\TN: No. We hope to be· able to operate from the bank and upon able to carry on operations and employ: their own resources. the services of a staff now conducting· the operations of the Government Sav·· In regard to the sale of debentures, iugs Bank. The intention is to utilise.· some hon. members may argue that it the existing machinery wherever possi·· would have been better to divide the State ble, and to extend operations generally. into districts and arrange for the selling As the agricultural committee said in. of debentures within those districts, say one of its reports, "we do not think it the North Coast district, Central Table wise to enter upon any elaborate scheme,. lands, or Southern Riverina; the money because we think it is foredoomed to. collected in those districts to be used failure." We believe that under the pre-· • within the area. Probably some such pro sent circumstances any extraneous ·ex~· posal would be the means of inducing penditure is unjustifiable. There are people within the area to buy debentures. ·centres which would be immeasurably But the commissioners a1id all the other benefited by these proposals. bank authorities I consulted assure me that if we did that under this bill it would I think I have explained to hon. mem mean that prosperous districts would be bers the general principles of the bill. I finding the money, whilst it would not have pointed out that we ·hope that our be possible to secure that all the money loans will be amortisation loans for a raised should be spent within the dis period of thirty-one years, under whioh trict. Our desire is to assist the settlers interest and principal are paid gradually. who are least fortunately placed, and They are the most popular of all forms of no doubt it would be advantageous if rural finance. Then we hope to have · money collected in richer districts could short loans to meet emergencies, and be utilised to help other districts more loans against every kind of real security. in need. The main object of banking is We hope to draw lar.gely upon our cur to try to make a wise distribution if you rent accounts for that. The local bran~ can of the money which comes in from ches will have local knowledge, and wilt more fortunately placed districts in know how the individuals in the com order to help districts less fortunately munity are situated. Hon. members will placed. After consideration we thought recognise that a great deal -of banking is it unwise at this stage to localise the de dependent on the personal security of bentures or to use the money locally. the individual. We believe that we shaH We want the provisions of the bill to be able to make short-time loans on !1PP1Y as widely as possible. which interest will be paid from day 3606 Government Savings Bank . [ASSEMBLY.] (Ruml Bank) Bi.ll .. to day. In those cases .the overdraft to endeavoUl', if they can, to help us to rato of interest will apply. I .might sena tho .bill ·to another Chamber, so dircet the attention of hon. members ·to that it ·may 'be made law this session. clauso 48 (f), ·wl:iich says that, with the W e.will then be alHe to pubt into opera npproval Of the Governor, the operations tion, 'and, during another session, if of the bank may .be extended to include .there .are any defects in the :measure, we the .general business of banking. .That will :be able tto amend :it. We will be is to say, if, in years to come, the busi .able .to ;frame .our intended 'legislation ness of the bank is· found ·to be extena ne:rt. session to deri1 with certain phases ing satisfactorily, and the co=issioners of 1rurul credit, and establish it· akmg think •the time has arrived to make ·the lines •which experience under the opera change, then, with the approval of :the tions of tl:i.is 'bill teach ·the commis Governor, ·it will be ·possible to trans sioners and ourselves are Wise. I com form the business into a gcneral'trading mend •the bill as an honest attempt hank busines~. We felt at the present at o. ·timo .like this when the ·financial time that it was not possible, nna:that.it stress is very great to afford some assist would be unwise to establish a ·general ance to a deserving class cif the com trading bank We want to work in •har munity. mony with the other institutions, and 'M'r. O:AE:ES: Is it proposea to bring for many reasons which we thought.gooa the employees of this bank under the and sufficient we decided to establish a regulations ·quoted the figures ·of the /Government ;I am ·qtiite aware 'that one and ·a hall 'SaVings ·Bank, but 1 think 'it 'is due ·to ·millions have'been advanced to our ..farm ·them to say :that ·the private 'institu- ing ·community, ana that a sum of, . tions advanced·money at rates very much ·rou.glily, £650,000 over and above that 'lower than 'th€ ·rurril•credit associations has 'been spent, but I understand that in. America which 1have been quoted to '£350,000 has come 'back to the Treasury •night. ·There are ·other ·matters in the as the result of sales of hay and grain 'bill upon which we may differ, 'but they ·wliich was over-purchased when provi· me ·purdy matters of opinion. { ·hope sian was'being ma'de to protect the farm• 'that this 'bill·will•get .us away from ·the ing community against drought conai 'hapha:zarO. ·system of ma1.-ing advances tions. in time of emergency, which means a Captain 'DuNN : 'Representing a loss I great deal of loss to the State in some Mr. ASHFORD: Yes. But there directions. !'hope that this bill will not would be a certain sum which would go only be the nucleus lor providing 'funds back to the· Treasury-money which was ·for ·assisting uur rural community, but directly raised 'for the purpose of assist that it will also·provide assistance to pri ing the farming community. mary producers·to•make provision ·against I should 'like to draw the attention future droughts. I hope ;that ·the com of the ·:Minister to a position that has .missione:rs will see .their way clear to arisen during the past six or seven years, make advances ~to assist farmers to pro and that ·has interfered with the legiti . vide storage accommodation to carry ·mate functions of the Savings Bank. them over periods of drought. 'It cer During the and distinct funds should be established many hon. members will have any dissent for the purpose of carrying on various to offer so far as the principle of this financial activities. · measure is concerned. It will be said by There is room for a great deal to be some critics that the ordinary trading said with regard to this bill. The Min banks could very well do the necessary ister is anxious to see the measure financing of our primary producers. It passed, and I agree with him that some may be argued by the same class of of the advantages attached to the estab critics that if the rural bank is going to lishment of the rural bank will be felt do a class of ·business that would not be immediately if the bank has placed at undertaken by an ordinary trading bank its disposal funds which rightly belong it is going to take on business which is to it, and is able to make advances to not financially sound. I do not. think necessitous settlers. The bill is one criticisms of that sort are legitimate. It; upon which the Minister is to be heartily is a perfectly sound businesslike prin congratulated, and I hope that the rural ciple that the Government, in financing bank will prove of immediate advantage any class of persons .who are carrying to our rural settlers. on industry essential to the well-being Mr. BA. VIN (Ryde) [10.38]: I do not of the community should undertake risks wish to interfere with the Minister's de that cannot and ought not to be taken sire to pass this bill expeditiously. I by 4jrdinary trading concerns. There have great pleasure in being able to con are other purposes to be served than the gratulate him, and offer him my most making of profits in the undertaking of hearty support. I would like to con such risks. There is the purpose of as gratulate the Minister not only upon sisting in a business which is essential having introduced the bill, but upon to the well-being of the Gommunity, and the speech he has just delivered. It was owing to the uncertainty of that busi a pleasure to listen to a speech so full ness-the general business of primary of reasonable and moderate common production-the risk is such that the or sense. I am sorry I cannot congratu dinary trading banks, which are neces late him upon the interest which is being sarily C'arried on for profit, cannot displayed by members of his own party. reasonably be expected to undertake. It It wonld not appear that the measure . is the obligation of the Government, even is the result of any very insistent demand though the loss of the taJ.."Payers' money upon the part of hon. members sit may be involved, to undertake this class ting behind the Government. However, of business. that may be, the Government is to be Captain DuNN: It is not likely to be sincerely congratulated upon having in . a very serious burden! troduced the bill. I do not want to in l\fr. BAVIN: I do not think it is, troduce any note of discord, but I may subject to two conditions. The first con be allowed to express regret that some dition is one which I am glad to say we of the time occupied last week in dis can rest assured will be fulfilled, and cussing measures which will not do any that is that the commissioners will be thing like as much good was not devoted efficient men, and, consistent with the to the consideration of this bill. carrying out of the primary purpose of Captain DuNN: It would have been the bank, will have due regard for the · brought forward last week but for my maintenance of a safe marginal security. having to go to Melbourne! The second condition is even more im Mr. BAVIN: Ron. members last week portant. The conduct of the business were subjected to a· very heavy physical of the bank should be entirely fi:ee from strain in order that certain measures any .kind of political influence. might be discussed which it now ap Captain DuNN: I specially stressed that! pears are not to be passed into law this Mr. BAVIN: I recognise that the session, and one of the results is that Minister did so, and that is one of the measures of this kind are thrust over to parts of his speech upon which I con the end of the session, with the risk of gratulate him. It would be fatal to the not being passed at all unless they are success of an institution .of the kind dealt with expeditiously. I do not think contemplated if there were any ground '3610 Government Savings Bank ;(ASSEMBLY.] .(Rwral Bank) Bill. for suspicion .that ,political·infl.uence was towards the development· of agriculture, being exerted.. Subject to those .two con an'cl.as such it is the most valuable con .ditions there·is.no reason to sup];iose that· . tribution the Government has :yet made · the carrying on of such business .as is .towards the econ~:;,mic progress of the •Contemplated will result .in .any serious State, not so much in the length to which O.irect loss ·to the community. Even.if .it :it goes as in the spirit of .appreciation docs, assuming.the business is carried on it shows of the immense ·,importance of ·.'Qy the commissioners with a reasonable 'developing rural industries. xcgard to the consideratiofis ..I have·men Mr. J. C.L:FITZEATRICX (Bathurst)' tioncd that monetary loss will be =ore .[10.50]: :We m'!Y regard it as a .good than rccoupe'cl by the benefit coruerred on omen that members on all sides are pre the community generally. I am glade the pared to .give unswerving support to the Minister does not regard this as ·the final general ,principles of this bill. The instalment of reform. I recognise that .Minister says that this is but the first ·:it would be unreasonable to expect that .instalment, and ·that when circumstances he should have. gone further in ·this admit further .legislation will .be sub measure. 'The report of the Legislative mitted. Only when this measure has Council committee on agriculture has .been put into operation shall we .realise pointed to "further developments. ·Per the extent to which we can go in safety. haps I might be allowed to say that the 'The in:iportant question is one of finance. evidence taken before that committee There arc some who run away with the has conferred a great benefit on the idea that the mere passage of .a bill whole community. Attention is called ,provides the funds by which its .. prin to a large number of matters of funda ciples are to be given ·effect to. No mental importance to the community. doubt the commissioners will do their Captain DuNN: They are assisting ·to best to provide whatever funds are neces form public opinion on certain ques sary, but we must not forget that this is tions! a ,period of great stress, when the price Mr. BAVIN: They are, and it is a of money is high. We must ·make the public opinion which is lamentably best use of the conditions that prevail, wanting in this State with regard to and recognise that if help is given it the volume and importance of agricul must be upon the best possible terms ·.to ·tural production, organisation, and edu those·who•are in need of it, and especi cation in the community. Not the least ally those associated with our primary in of the benefits of the work of the select .dustries. committee has been the progress report, I have great faith in the solvency in which attention is 'directed to the de ani:l. soundness of the Gove=ent velopment of rural credit systems in Savings· Bank of this State. During ·the other parts of the world. I hope the 'last 'Parliament ·we were told that the Government will take action as soon as Savings Bank was showing a ,profit possible to continue the progress begun •when, as a matter of fact, it was upon by this measure along the lines indi the ·verge of bankruptcy. I attempted cated in that report. It seems to me ·to dissipate· that :foolish idea at the time, that the best solution of the problem is and recent events have proved that the to be found in the development of co ·suggesticn was one that only needed to operative credit. 'I feel sure that the :be investigated ·to ·show how unfair and Minister also recognises that. I O.o not ill-based it was. To·my.mind~the :figures think we have had the last word on the associated with ·the ;conduct.o'f the Sav subject when we 'have merely added ·to ings ~Bank·in recent·years are .well.worth the machinery by Government advances. looking into. Only .by .this means can :A.s I say, the'best solution of ·the.prob we Jearn :to appreciate ana come ·.to .a lem lies in a fuller development of co clear understanding of what has .been operative credit associations, and I hope done. .I lhave a 'few :figures which show that •something will be done early· next the .remarkable growth of ·.the bank in: session to assist in .the inauguration, and .the :last three years. The ':figures (deal development of those associations. .I with ~the deposits ·and :payments ~and .welcome the mcasurc'bccausc it is a.step balances at credit' of oepositors ,for the [Mr. Bavin. Go'vernment Savings BGJnk [.14 DEc.,'-1920.] (Rwral BGJnk) Bill. 3611 .years 1918-19-20. For the year 1918 the 'Mr. LEY (St. George) [11.1]: The ·deposits represented £28,397,000. Interest eulogistic remarks made by the bon. paid represented £1,308,000, whilst the ·member !Ir. Fitzpatrick with regard to payments out totalled .£28,188,000. For this bill are deserving. Every bon. mem . 1919 the deposits .amounted to ber, I think, will make the same remarks, £32,995,000; the .interest to £1,363,000; and that fact makes the provisions and the .payments out to £31;252,000. .of the bill all the more remarkable. The For 1920 a most remarkable increase Minister for Agriculture has the best is shown. The deposits ·represent intentions in introducing this measure, £45,000,000; the :interest £1,457,000; and and he has already had the assurance the payments out £43,787,000. The from both sections of the Opposition that balances at ·Credit of depositors were: we will give him every aid in getting the 30th June, 1918, £38,566,000; 30th June, measure through quickly, but it does 1919, £41,673,000; and 30th June, 1920, -seem to me that the real significance of £44,427,000. It is remarkable that com the bill is not so much to assist the rural ,petition has had no detrimental effect iettler as to .turn the Govermnent Sav ·upon the 'State Savings Bank, and has ings Barik .into a trading banlc The not preventea the Co=onwealth Bank powers which are necessary for that pur ·from making ·substantial progres!). It is pose are fully given, and I raise no ob a ·tribute to those sitting in the mane jection on that ground, because I think ·gerial chairs. This measure will ·be ef it ·is a step in advance to have the State fective only so long as it is kept free bank turned into a trading banlc What from political control. If any attempt is I want to point out is that the bill be made to use the institution, not only the fore the House will not enable the Sa.v future success of the bank itself, but of ings Bank Commissioners to give very this particular branch, will be jeopar much more accommodation to settlers dised. I am sure that the clear desire than the private banks are giving then1 of the Minister is that the operations ,to-day. The bill is hedged round with of the barik shall be free from all ex so many qualifications that the advance ternal influences. will be limited as regards security to Captain DUNN: The co=issioners such an extent that the ordinary ·settler are to have full power, and no control could get far more help from the can be exercised under;this 'bill! ordinary trading banks than from the Mr. J. C. L. FITZPATRICK: 'I am Government Savings Bank when it is confident that the commissioners would turne'd into a trading banlc not for one moment tOlerate any in'frac rc!lptain Du"'"N: I think the bon. mem 'tion of that principle in the carrying out i ber is entirely wrong. I think that when o'f their duties. 'They would not 'dream the scheme is .Put into practice he will of tampering with the property cif the ·fina that be is entirely wrong! depositors ·or of using the funds at their Mr. LEY: I will show the :Minister disposal in a fashion which, whilst it ··what I mean in a moment 'Or two. I ·might be advantageous to. the indivi think he will ~ee with me after he has duals, would bring discredit on such a 'heard what I 'have to say. The bon. wonderfully efficient institution. I am member Mr. Fitzpatrick, an ex-Colonial glad to have this 'first instalment of legis Treasurer, said that the Commissioners 'lation which, when it is in complete bank. It will be a rural bank. Later on him, or the equivalent of money, other the Governor may hand over to it all the wise the bill. is not going. to pe of any functions of a trading bank!. use to the rural interests. . Mr.. CARR: "Quite so, and I under~ Cap_tain DuNN : I did indicate tho stand that is not to be done immediately. methods by which I thought we should. It will be competent for the bank to ally l·e·able to raise a fair amount of money. itself with other. banks and·. clearing· I also indicated the amount of money. houses within the State, but generaL we have been able to raise under the old banking wilL take it. outside the State. condition-s, which compare more than nfr. BALL.Ofurray) [11.21]: The bill. favourably. with other countries in con provides for u rural bank associated with, nection w:ith.which we havo·examined the· the present Government Savings Bank operations of rural banks. Our loans ·I agree with the bon. member Jl.fr. Ley per head of the population,, even under that the bill should be broadened in its. the old system, arc far better than in provisions, so that the oo=issioners· other countries under rural credit asso may have greater powers in making ad: ciations. We propose to raise our money vunces. and lending on fi.."ed mortgage. more liberally than under the old &ystem! The particular feature oi the bill which ltfr: BALL: To ra!se it locally? intere&ts me is that it is supposed to Captain Dmm: Yes. We propose to accept current accounts operated' on by assist the Secretarv for I~ar.ds in connec tion with the Subdivision· of Large Hold· cheque, to accept fixed deposits, and to ings Bill. The Secretary for Lands, on in sell farm debentures! troducing that measure, said that it was Mr. BALL: That is substantial. That to be a, twin measure of this bill, and. will.mean that you will have the security that the success of that bill would depend. of the resources of the country. upon this bill. Captain Dmm: Of. course we will! Mr: BALL: If the Minister· can see Captain Duxx: Thia is a lively, healthy his way to find the money the bill is one twin! which will- assist the rural industries. 1\{r. BALL: How is this measure going That industry should be dealt with in the to assist in the breaking up of large most liberal way. "estates~ It is true that advances can. Captain DuNx.: I warn you not to ex only bo made to a certain extent, but pect miracles from.tbe bill! how is the money to be provided to pay 1.fr. BALL: The Minister is wise in for the large (•states? I do not know saying so. But we aro still expecting a whether the :Minister, ir. his second-read more liberal measure than the present ing speech.• referred to that aspect of the legislation. I have no serious criticism caRe, or explained how money could be to offer of the bill. The only point I obtained to enable the Minister to burst wish to make is that the bill may be np the large estates. of assistance to rural industries, but Captain Dmm: We provide that the it is not going to assist the confiscation money 'vill be used mainly to assist those bill of the Secretary f0r Lands. who go on new lands! 1\fr. BENNETT (llfaitland) .[11.28].:· Ur. BALL: Tt will asRist them after I congratulate the Minister on bringing they have some security they can offer to forward a measure that will fill a long the bank. I fail to see that thia can btl felt want. Rural banks in Europe and culled a twin bill to the 0ther bill. I am America, and particularly in Germany, pl'('paTcd to support this measurf'J. I con have done a.lot to assist rural industries. gratulate tl.e Miniater ou bringing it for Certainly at the present i;ime such an wnrd. It is an attempt to assist the man institution is badly needed in this State. on the land, but there is one aspect of the The ordinary banking institutions have case I should like the Minister to make been buttoning up their pockets for some rlear, that is how be propose!'l to find the time past, and it is difficult for the man money necessary to give effect to the on the land to get advances. on any· ac measure. Call the bill what you like, ita count at the present juncture. The bill purpose i3 to assist the man on the land. empowers the eo=issioners to take It is necessary to provide money to al:'sist risks which none of the other institutions [.Mr. Carr. Government Savings Bank [14 DEc., 1920.] (RwralBank) Bill, 36151 is taking at the present day. Power tricts. If that could be done it would is given to the commissioners to discount afford' a safeguard to the bank, and bills and. drafts and Government securi would inspire confidence in the people ties, grant overdrafts, payable on de who are likely to invest their· money in mand- to agricultural, pastoral, rural or the bank.. primary producers, and to issue letters Captain DbNN': Of course the money of credit and' bills and drafts. My o9- is guaranteed by the· Government, and ject in calling attention to these powers that gives more confidence to those who is that the money used• will' be the invest their money in: the bank. savings- of the people. Power will be Mr. BENNETT: I quite realise that; jiiven under the bilr to utilise the money but the State may have to make up a d0posited1 in the Government Savings deficiency! Bank in addition to any money that may Captain DuN::-<: It never has had to be borrowed, and· L taka it that one of do so! the objects of the commissioners will be Mr. BENl\TETT: Notwithstanding to .win the confidence of the people, and that, the course suggested by me should, especially of· those engaged' in rural in be followed, as it would inspire confi dustries who may have money to invest. dence and· give security. I congratu A great deal will depend upon the com late the Minister upon having brought missioners being able to induce people to forward this bill, and I hope he will be put· their money into the bank. I notice able to introduce early next session the that in the United States there is a great more comprehensive measure which he safeguard' in the forin of rural' finance has foreshadowed. societies, which act in conjunction with :Mi:. HOSKINS (Western Suburbs) the bank officials and< practically recom [11'.38]': I raise no objection to the bill mend advances. When you go l:ieyon& which, if· properly administered, will fill real' estate-freeholdr securities or-lease a long-felt want. I must ask the Minis holds with a long-tenure-you. are taking ter to very carefully consider the danger up a very risky line of business; and :mY,· of entering into undue competition with experience of most of the banks, and of. the trading banl{s, which have hitherto the Government Savings Bank especially; given the Government such valuable is that the officials have not a very wi-de assistance. The managers of these great knowledge of rural questions. They·may financial institutions have rendered not be able to tell you the value of a great service to the State, and have crop or of a team of bullocks, and I sug tendered good advice to the Government gest that the Minister should endeavour at various critical' times: to utilise the services of reliable men Captain Dmm: And-- also to the who can be found· in every centre, who settlers! would act in the capacity of' honorary Mr. HOSKINS: Just so. They have advisers of the institution. When· ad: from time to time given valuable advice· vances are to be made on wool' or timl:ier upon financial matters, apd I hope there or promissory notes, the security de will· be no unfair competition with them pends very largely- on the character and' as• the result of the establishment of the liltability of the person to whom the•loan proposed rural bank. The present is a is to be granted, and the h.'nowledge of a time of great financial stress, and to my man's character· can only be obtained· by mind the position is in some respects men who have watched1 his conduct on· alarming; because· owing to the assist his holding or in his business. It is· ance which the banks have given to the. well known that many years ago. the Govemment they are not· in as good a banks made heavy losses·through making position as·they should be to-assist their advances on stock in times of drought. customers. The leader· of the Progres And when we have an institution· with sive party mentioned that farmers had small branches1 scattered throughout_ the obtained all the advances they could from State, similar losses may be incurred in the ordinary trading banks by way of the future, unless the <:ommissioners mortgage and so on, and· that it was are a-bla · to enlist the assistance of some time the Government came to -the ·rescue. of the practical' men in the various dis- If, however, the Government institution 3616 Government Savings BanJo (ASSEMBLY.] (R-wl'alBank) Bill. is going to merely take over the bones authorities from e.'l:ercising any jurisdic·· which are left by the banks, it will be of tion over or interfering with the right very little use. At the same time, under of the State to deal with the salaries of conditions of fair competition, there will ita own servants. Can the l.Gnister say b_e plenty of scope for the rural bank. to what e.'\:tent the position will be Question resolved: in the affirmative. affected by this amendment~ Bill read a second time. Captain DUNN: I do not thiTik this In Committee (Mr. SnroN HICKEY in amendment will create any difficulty. the chair): It. merely gives to the officers of the Clauses 1 to 5 inclusive agreed to. Savings Bank the right of applying Clause 6 postponed. to the Arbitration Court, which is now Clauses 7 to 11 inclusive agreed to. enjoyed by other State servants. Clause 12 (Amendment of section 27). . Clause as read agreed to. Mr. BAVIN (Ryde) [11.45] : Can the Clause 14 (Amendment of section 37). :Minister explain why the commis Mr. BAVIN ( (Ryde) [11.49] : Wby is sioners should be empowered to establish it necessary to provide that deposits may branches and agencies of the bank out be received from minors~ side .the State~ Is it within the func tions of a bank of this kind that it should Capain DUNN: The hon. member will see that this is one of a series of amend have that power~ · ments dealing with the Government Captain DUNN [11.46] : This provi Savings Bank, and the experience of the sion is inserted in case the bank should commissioners has been that there ought later on be converted from a rural bank to be a clause of this kind giving minors into a general trading bank. If the in power to open accounts. They have not stitution fulfils our expectations it may, had that power in the past, nor could be that in a few years' time the Govern~ they opera.te until they were 14 years of ment of the day will see fit to convert it age. This has been found to constitute into a general trading bank. There are a hardship, and the purpose of the clauses in the bill empowering it do to amendment is to assist minors to open that, and if it e.'l:ercises that power it accounts, and to operate on them once may want to establish branches outside they can sign their names without the the State, say in London. need of any interference by a guardian. Clause as read agreed to. · Clause as read agreed ' Clause 13 (Amendment of section 32). to. ·Mr. OAKES (Eastern Suburbs) Clap.se 15 agreed to. [11.47] : I notice that the amendment Clause 16 (Amendment of section 38A). provided for in this clause deals with the Mr. · OAKES (Eastern Suburbs) control of officers. The last paragraph [11.51 J : Can the :Minister e.'l:plain why it provides that is necessary in this amendment which nothing in this section shall affect the provides for deposits by friendly and powers of the Court of IJ?-dustria;l Ar_bi other . societies and municipalities to tration under the Industnal Arb1tratwn limit the amount of the deposit to £1,000 ~ Act, 1912, or any Act amending the Captain DUNN: That is the limit of same. the amount on which they are paid in The object of that, I take it, is to terest. It has been found that many allow the officers of the bank to go to the of these institutions put· in a large sum court and have their salaries . fixed. for a few days and then take it out again. Captain Du'NN: Should they so desire! It was thought desirable to impose this Mr. OAKES: Recentl;y there has been limitation. a decision of the High Court that ~tate Clause as read agreed to. servants engaged in any industrial enter prise can ·come under a Federal award, · ClauSQS 17 and 18 agreed to. and more recently still we know that Clause 19 (Amendment of section 42). this State has been asked to co-operate· . Mr. B.A VIN (Ryde) [11.52] : Whilst I with other States of the Commonwealth congratulate the Minister on inserting to take steps to prevent the Federal this amendment, which deals with the ..•. [Mr. 'IIoskiM. Government SavingsBank TH DEc., l920.] (Rural Banlc) Bill. -:funds of. a deceased:deposit~r, Lam not .form ·'Of· amending legislation ,aiJd·' to ·'sure· that ··it ·is reasonable to. limit···the appeal to the .. Minis_ter to ~se ..his in- amount. of the deposit· to'£200. fluence in Cabinet. to put 'an end to it. Oaptain DtJjXN: Dees tho Jwn ..member This ,clause follows_ the, metho9s.adopted think it might be more? in a great_ many- measures .this•. session. :Mr. BAV:IN: Th~ ,figure Lam ,offering 'This . Gov,erninent is EIGHT HbURS (AMENDMENT) BILL. Wales. I suggest that there should be Bill_ read a third time. miners' right claims, as at present, up to 100 feet square. MINING (AMENDMENT) BILL. :M:r. OAKES: Are those the conditions to-day? In Committee (consideration resumed from 2nd December, vide page 3086): :Th£r. BROOKFIELD: They are, I be lieve, the conditions in force at present. Clause 2. The following amendments are made in the Principal Act as so Uy experience at White Cliffs was that amended:- companies came on to known opal-bear ing ground, and they pegged out huge Se~tion. thirty-fiv~ is ·r.epe~led,. and. the leases. They did not work these them following section is substituted there seh·es, but let the leases, on tribute, to for:- 35. (1) Except in r.espect of spe-. miners, in areas of 40 feet, or perhaps 20 cial leases, the maximum area which feet. They had no wages men employed in may be included in any one mining doing developing work, because opal min lease under this part shall be :- ing does not lend itself to wages work. (a) Opal mining lease, one half acre. You often get a patch of opal in one little ·pocket. It may not be scattered about Mr. BAVIN (Ryde) [12.11 a.m.]: I all over the place. The small "colours" propose to carry out the threat which I of opal are not va1uable, but there is made a dozen times during the last week sufficient to keep you following that trail or so with regard to _the method of of colour, which eventually may lead you amending Acts. Thesameobjection applies to a gem of some marketable value, but to this bill as to the Government Savings if those co lours were gold, every one that Bank (Amendment) Bill which was before you obtained would be Of some value. the Committee to-night. There are only In the- opal sense the colour is of no two clauses in this bill, but there is a value unless it is big enough to make a long list of important -amendments, all of gem. which are embodied in them. A very im An HoN. :ThiE~mER: Is mach~nery portant new clause is added to section 40 of the Principal Act. It sets up an en necessary? tirely new principle in the law of the Mr. BROOKFIELD: No, it is mostly State, and it is all done in a single shallow mining, from the surface down clause. I appeal to the :Th1:inister, and I to 30 or 40 feet in depth. know he will listen to criticism which is :Th£r. ·OAKES: If the present condition not merely obstructive, to see that in any is that lmid is taken up under miners' future amending bills introduced this rights, how did these companies take up method of drafting is not adopted. It is huge leases? not fair to the Committee, it is not fair :Thh. BROOKFIELD: That was in the to the practising lawyer, and it is not early days of White Cliffs. Lightning fair to the practising' lawyer's client, Ridge is a more recent discovery, and to which is ever so much more important. my knowledge there are no leases there. It is a most confusing and· misleading :Thfr. CANN: I will accept the amend method of legislation. It is hard for the ment! House to discuss it properly, and it is Amendment (by Mr. BROOKFIELD) hard for a lawyer to ascertain what agreed to: amendments have been made. I ask That in line 11, after the words "opal the :Thfinister to see that in any future mining," the words "lease, one-half acre" amending legislation bills that are· in be struck out, and that there be inserted troduced are not introduced in this form. in lieu thereof the words "claim one hun Mr. BROOKFIELD (Sturt) [12.16 dred f.eet square." . a.m.] : I want to move an amendment t.> Mr. OAKES (Eastern Suburbs) [12.22 provide that no leases shall be granted a.m.] : I would like some information on opal'ficlds. My reason is based upon from the JYiinister with regard to the experience. I have worked on White portion of the clause which says: Cliffs, and on Lightning Ridge, the two Section thirty-six, subsection two, line ·important opal fields of New South two: Omit "one shilling," insert "two Stamp Duties Bill. [14 DEc., 1920.] Stamp Duties Bill. 3619 shillings"; and in subsection (2A), line has been introduced at the last moment, four, omit "one shilling," insert "two and no proper opportunities have been shillings.'' afforded to consider it. I believe that Can the 111:inister give the Committee after the Treasurer has heard what I any idea as to what the estimated altera have to say he will agree that it contains tion in the revenue will be~ certain provisions which should not be Mr. CA.I."\I"N [12.23 a.m.]: The rent of embodied in our legislation. The bill a gold-mining lease, under the Act of ·is the echo of that which was introduced 1874, used to be £1 an acre. Later on it in the last Parliament, and I would have was reduced to 5s. an acre. Then, again, dealt fully with that aspect of the case in 1906 I think, it was brought down to at the second-reading stage if I had not 1s. an acre. The Colonial Treasurer has been physically e.'iliausted and compelled been pressing us for revenue, and we do to absent myself in order to get some not think it is an extravagant figure to rest. In the last Parliament a bill was raise it to 2s. The difference will bring introduced to impose a larger measure in about £700 a year. The department of taxation, and at my instigation a has gone very carefully into this, and round-robin was signed asking the then it is not thought that it will inflict any Minister to withdraw it in the hope that hardship. we might get that measure and others. Clause as amended agreed to. dealt with and the stamp duties consoli- Bill reported with an amendment; re dated in one bill. The bill was with- port adopted. drawn, and the measure which. is now before us has the advantage over the·· STAMP DUTIES BILL. previous bill that it consolidates several' measures which, for some years, have·· THIRD READING. puzzled practitioners, and have been a Motion (by Mr. LANG) proposed: source of worry to their clients. It was·. T,hat this bill be now read a third time. a very difficult matter to find out exactly Mr. LEY (St. George) [12.27 a.m.]: what was the law in regard to an every-. Many people imagine that we live under day simple receipt of £2 and upwards. One . a democratic form of government. We had to go through several different Acts-. have one-man-one-vote, and apparently of Parliament in order to ascertain what .. majority rule; but really we have a mix was a receipt and what duty was payable. ture of bureaucratic and autocratic gov So far as this consolidation of the laws . ernment, and th{s bill reminds me that relating to stamp duties is concerned, th