Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 5 APRIL 1977

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Ministerial Statement [5 APRIL 1977] Ministerial Statement 2831

TUESDAY, 5 APRIL 1977 made available to organi&ations such as the Family Life Movement to enable them to develop further and increase the scope of their classes dealing with areas of sex edu­ Mr. ACTING SPEAKER (Mr. W. D. cation but offered to families and individuals Hewitt, Chatsworth) read prayers and took outside of school hours. He infers that I am the chair at 11 a.m. not in favour of this, when in fact it is the very suggestion that I have persistently put ASSENT TO BILLS forward and pursued since even before I was appointed Minister for Education and Assent to the following Bills reported by that I have advocated at meetings with parent Mr. Acting Speaker:­ bodies throughout the entire State. But even Greenvale Agreement Bill; on this point, let me make it clear that I Queensland Performing Arts Trust Bill; would insist upon the closest investigation Anglican Church of Australia Bill; of all that such movements advocate and Coal and Oil Shale Mine Workers (Pen­ teach before I WO'.lld recommend greater sions) Act Amendment Bill; support for them. Electoral Districts Act and Another Act So let me make it clear here and now to Amendment Bill; the Press, to the community, to the House and particularly to the member for South Irrigation Act and Another Act Amend­ Brisbane that neither I nor the Directors of ment Bill; Education advocate the introduction of sex Universities Acts Amendment Bill; education courses dealing with abortion, con­ Libraries Act Amendment Bill. traception, abnormal sex and/ or masturbation into our State schools next year or at any specific time. We, my directors and I, PAPERS remain convinced this is an area of educa­ The following papers were laid on the tion which is the prerogative of parents. We table:- are very well aware that parents too fre­ Orders in Council under- quently abrogate these responsibilities and we are aware that it is therefore our respon­ The State Electricity Commission Acts, sibility to exhaustively investigate ways and 1937 to 1965. means by which adequate education in all The Southern Electric Authority of aspects of human relationships may be intro­ Queensland Acts, 1952 to 1964. duced to school students and parents by per­ Harbours Act 1955-1976. sons and in a manner conducive to general State Housing Act 1945-1974. community acceptance. Co-operative and Other Societies Act Let me say most definitely that the pres­ 1967-1976. sures for the introduction of human relation­ Regulations under the Public Service Act ships courses, which would include a com­ 1922-1973. ponent of sex education, have come from outside of my department-from church organisations, women's groups, political MINISTERIAL STATEMENT party committees and education organisations. COMMENTS ATTRIBUTED TO MEMBER FOR However, we shall not be manipulated by self-interest minority groups; we shall not be SoUTH BRISBANE ON SEX EDUCATION IN stampeded even by the several sincere and ScHOoLs well-respected representatives of majority Hon. V. J. BIRD (Burdekin__JMinister for groups, such as the churches, women's Education and Cultural Activities) (11.6 associations, political party education com­ a.m.): It is with deep regret that I make this mittees and school bodies. We shall­ statement to the House. If recent comments ! repeat shall-take cognisance of all sub­ attributed to the member for South Brisbane, missions made to us, and we shall endeavour Mr. Lamont, are in fact comments made by to produce a plan to assist our young people him, then he is deserving of the strongest achieve a beneficial respect for their own possible condemnation insomuch as he has bodies and emotions and sensitivities as well mischievously and deliberately misled the as for those of others. Press and, through the Press, the people of this community. I refer specifically to the It was for this reason that I proposed to statements attributed by "Sunday Sun" of my education committee that there should be 3 April last to the member for South Bris­ appointed a committee specifically to investi­ bane implying that I favour the introduction gate existing resource materials related to within our schools of sex courses taught by human relationships courses, to investigate inexpert people and dealing with abortion, what we are being asked to do by the var­ contraception, abnormal sex and masturba­ ious groups I have mentioned, and what we tion. Not one word of that accusation is may be able to consider for introduction to parallel to the truth. Those words are in fact our schools at a time when we can be totally untrue. reasonably assured of having come up with a generally acceptable course and the right Mr. Lamont is further credited with saying people to offer that course. In point of fact, that it is the parliamentary education com­ my idea was for a committee similar to that mittee which is in favour of funds being appointed some years ago to investigate the 2832 Personal Explanation [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice

ways and means of introducing a generally QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE acceptable religious education course into our schools. 1. RECEIPTS FROM TAXATION Those are the facts-facts clearly con­ Mr. Bums, pursuant to notice, asked the trary to the irresponsible statements attributed Deputy Premier and Treasurer- to the honourable member for South Bris­ (! ) What receipts has Queensland bane. received so far this financial year from State taxation for licences and permits PETITION involving (a) State transport, (b) liquor, (c) traffic, (d) fishing, (e) auctioneers WEST MoRETON CoALFIELDs and agents, (f) land tax, (g) pay-roll tax, (h) stamp duty, (i) succession and probate Mr. MARGINSON (Wolston) presented duty, (j) totalisator and betting tax, (k) a petition from 836 citizens of Queensland bookmaker's turnover tax and (1) soccer praying that the Parliament of Queensland pools tax? will rescind the decision to cut back the quotas from the West Moreton coa1fields or (2) Has the State Treasury made any find alternative markets for the coal and estimates as to how much finance Queens­ provide funds for alternative employment land will receive under the new federalism for miners from these fields who may be proposal in which each State shares 33.6 retrenched. per cent of the personal income tax pool for the financial year 1977-78 and, if so, Petition read and received. what are the estimates?

PERSONAL EXPLANATION Answers:- ( 1) Full details of receipts to 31 Decem­ Mr. JONFS (Cairns) (11.12 a.m.), by ber 1976 have been published in the leave: In a ministerial statement on the last quarterly Government Gazette. The 31 day of sitting, the Minister for Works and March 1977 figures will be available shortly Housing made certain statements in connec­ and I will ensure that their publication is tion with the deletion of works in particular expedited. electorates and said that the Cairns Technical College was never the subject of representa­ (2) No realistic estimate can be made tions by me. That was a gross misrepresenta­ at this stage of the amount to be received tion of the facts. Correspondence dating under the tax-sharing arrangements for back to the early 1970s directed to his pre­ the year 1977-78. It is expected, however, decessors and extracts from "Hansard" give that the return to the State will be in the lie to that and indicate the entire irre­ excess of what it would have been under sponsibility of the Minister in making that the previous Financial Assistance Grant statement. It should be remembered that formula. the major portion of the funds for technical and further education came from Federal sources. 2. WORKERS' ACCOMMODATION Mr. Bums, pursuant to notice, asked the It would be well to judge the veracity of Minister for Industrial Development, Labour the whole text of the ministerial statement, Relations and Consumer Affairs- and the Minister's credibility, on his attempt to mislead this House with such a false ( 1 ) Do inspectors of his department pronouncement. My claims are clearly true inspect regularly each year workers' accom­ and are well documented. The people of modation provided under the Workers' Cairns are aware of the facts, but I seek to Accommodation Act and, if not, at what put the record straight here. intervals is accommodation inspected? (2) When inspectors find that accom­ In his reply to a question asked on 30 modation does not meet the standards of April concerning the Trinity Bay High School the Act, do they report to the chief tuck-shop extensions and library, the Minister inspector and do prosecutions have to be at the end of his reply, as an afterthought­ approved by the Minister? it was not in the original text of the answer as supplied by departmental sources, but was (3) In each of the last five years, how printed in the records on 31 March-said many approvals to prosecute have been that this portion of the work also was not given by the Minister? undertaken as a result of my representations. ( 4) Is he aware that workers in Again in a vainglorious attempt to discredit western Queensland are concerned at the me, the Minister turned the gun on himself deterioration in the standard of workers' and misled the House. My original rep­ accommodation, which in many instances resentations on the tuck-shop and the library has become unusable? at that school go back to correspondence (5) When was the Workers' Accommo­ dated 25 November 1974. dation Act last amended and updated? I regret that the Minister has deigned (6) What is the minimum standard of to resort to these tactics. I suggest that accommodation allowed under the provi­ he should apologise to the House on all sions of the Act for (a) married workers counts. and (b) single workers? Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 19771 Questions Upon Notice 2833

Answas:- 3. RECLAMATION WoRKS FOR MANLY BOAT HARBOUR ( 1) Inspectors of workers' accommoda­ tion do not inspect workers' accommodation Mr. Lamond, pursuant to notice, asked the every year. There is no set period pre­ Minister for Tourism and Marine Services- scribed as to how often accommodation ( 1) Is he aware that more than 70 con­ must be inspected. In western areas, owing cerned persons have made written submis­ to climatic factors and the number of sions to him and the Government and at properties in each district, such properties least 90 persons have made verbal objec­ tions strenuously opposing the reclamation cannot be inspected on a regular basis. proposed by his department in the Manly However, where accommodation is known Boat Harbour between the Manly jetty and to be below standard or a complaint is the reclaimed land at the southern end of received, inspectors are instructed to make the harbour? an immediate inspection and follow-up (2) Does he realise that, if this reclama­ inspections until such time as the accom­ tion is allowed to proceed, a substantial modation meets the required standard. amount of potential mooring and boating area within the harbour will be lost? (2) Inspectors of workers' accommoda­ tion are required to forward a report to (3) Will he give favourable considera­ the chief inspector whether or not the tion to the depositing of spoil from the accommodation meets the standard required dredging of the Manly Boat Harbour in an area south of the harbour, adjacent to the by the Act. Prosecutions have to be esplanade and the already reclaimed land, approved by the Minister. which will result in usable reclaimed land (3) Since 1 July 1972 approval has and no loss to the future boating potential of the harbour, or, alternatively, to deposit­ been granted to institute 11 prosecutions ing the spoil adjacent to Darling Point in involving four employers in matters related order to permit the formation of yet to the Workers' Accommodation Act. A another boat haven? further 10 prosecutions involving one employer are being processed at the present Answers:­ time. (1) Yes. ( 4) I am aware that workers in western (2) The area in question has no eco­ Queensland are concerned with the present nomic potential for development as a standard of workers' accommodation. mooring area because of the hard underly­ During the period from 1960 to 1970 the ing material. The cost of dredging this greater part of western Queensland suffered hard material is in excess of four times the cost of dredging in other areas at the prolonged drought conditions causing harbour, and the additional capital cost in financial hardship for the owners of many excess of $1,000,000 could not be recom­ sheep and cattle stations. Since 1970, mended. inflation and resultant high wages have (3) A proposal is already before my made the provision of new accommodation department for reclamation south of Manly a rather costly proposition. The chief Boat Harbour by the Royal Queensland inspector of workers' accommodation is Yacht Squadron. The formation of a boat aware that, because of the aforementioned harbour to house about 150 vessels adja­ factors, there has been some deterioration cent to Darling Point is estimated to cost in standards and this is in the process of $2,000,000. This gross capital cost is being attended to. beyond the economic resources of my department and the cost per vessel is (5) The Workers' Accommodation Act unacceptably high. 1952-1972 has not been amended since 1952 apart from the amendments relating to metric conversion in 1972. However, 4. WEEK-END AIR POLLUTION the regulations which lay down the standard Mr. Lamond, pursuant to notice, asked the of accommodation have been amended on Minister for Local Government and Main a number of occasions over the years, the Roads- most recent (apart from metric conversion) (1) Is he aware that either by intention permitting the use of urethane foam mat­ or by accident a considerable amount of tresses as from 24 June 1971. air pollution in all forms, from the back­ (6) The Workers' Accommodation Act yard incinerator to industry, occurs after is, as its name implies, concerned with hours or on week-ends? accommodation for workers and does not (2) Further to my question of 29 distinguish between married and single March and my earlier approaches to him workers. However, I am advised that in on the matter of the setting up of a suit­ western areas married station hands norm­ able structure within the Air Pollution ally are provided with cottage-style accom­ Council to handle this very real problem, modation which exceeds the standards so that the affected parties can report and prescribed under the Workers' Accommoda­ have immediate action taken, what action tion Act. is he taking? 2834 Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice

Answer:- The Government does not propose to (1 and 2) The Clean Air Act was de­ withdraw any existing rights to long service signed specifically to control air pollution leave in respect of any employee. These from industrial and commercial sources. are guaranteed by existing legislation. In my opinion, it would be competent for It would be true to say that the Building a local authority to take action under the Trades Group of Unions have frequently Local Government Act, or in the case of advocated strikes in protest against mat­ the Brisbane City Council under the City ters which have no industrial content and of Brisbane Act, to deal with nuisances are outside the competence of employers created by backyard incinerators. to change. This would have imposed hid­ den costs on the industry, which cannot be l can appreciate the honourable mem­ justified and this practice cannot be con­ ber's concern and as I mentioned in my doned. In all fairness, such strikes are reply of 29 March I am looking into the normally of short duration but in any case whole question of the feasibility of an under the existing law an employee's after-hours answering service to deal with entitlement to long service leave is not put complaints in respect of all pollution mat­ in jeopardy because of his strike record. ters which come within my department's jurisdiction. I am having discussions with The award rate prescribed for building the Minister for Community and Welfare workers does include a loading as compen­ Services, who also has a problem with sation for time lost of approximately one answering services, to see if it is possible week per year in moving from one building to set up an after-hours service. job to the next. However, no loading is included in the wage structure as compen­ sation for inability to accrue long service 5. LONG SERVICE LEAVE FOR BUILDING leave entitlements. WORKERS Mr. Abern for Mr. Powell, pursuant to 6. ANTI-DISCRIMINATION LAWS notice, asked the Minister for Industrial Mr. Ahem for Mr. Powell, pursuant to Development, Labour Relations and Con­ notice, asked the Premier- sumer Affairs- Cl) Has he read the article by John ( 1) Is he aware that the Building Singleton in "The Australian" on the anti­ Workers' Union in its campaign proposals discrimination Bill as introduced into the for long service leave has avoided the New South Wales Parliament? real meaning of the words "long" and (2) Will he guarantee that legislation "service"? providing for the Government to direct (a) (2) Does this Government, with all other employers whom to employ, (b) schools good employers, give and will it continue whom to enrol and/or (c) independent to give reward to employees who effectively schools how to run their schools, as the serve their employers over a long period N.S.W. legislation directs, will never be of time? allowed in Queensland while the National (3) In respect of continuity of service, and Liberal Parties are in Government? has the Building Workers' Industrial Union a very poor record by advising its members Answers:­ to strike for other than industrial matters? (1) Yes. ( 4) Does the award rate of pay for (2) I think I made this fairly clear in building workers take into account the my answer of 30 March to the honourable ad hoc nature of their employment? member for Carnarvon. However, I take this opportunity of categorically stating that Answer:- never while I am Premier of Queensland ( 1 to 1) Long service leave in its present will this Legislative Assembly see any such concept Is a reward for long, continuous dangerous, pernicious and discriminatory­ service with the same employer. Because yes, discriminatory-legislation as the so­ of the nature of the building industry, few called Anti-Discrimination Bill introduced employees are afforded the opportunity of by the A.L.P. in New South Wales. attaining long and continuous service with the same employer. The proposals envisage 7. MARIJUANA long service leave as a reward for long continuous service to an important and Mr. Ahern for Mr. Powell, pursuant to vital industry as distinct from one em­ notice, asked the Minister for Health- ployer. There is nothing novel or unique ( 1) Has his attention been drawn to in this concept. Long service leave benefits the probability of legislation being intro­ have existed in the coal-mining industry duced in other States to legalise marijuana? and the stevedoring industry for many years. Portability of service within local (2) Does the use of so-called soft authorities and with fire brigade boards drugs lead to experiments with and even­ has been accepted for a number of years. tual dependence upon hard drugs? Moreover, funds accumulated to meet the ( 3) Have case histories of drug addicts contingency could give a stimulus to the proved that marijuana is a first step to building industry in times of r'ecession. hard-drug addiction? Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice 2835

Answers:- 9. VALUE OF EXPORTS AND IMPORTS ( 1) I am aware of reports that certain Mr. Houston, pursuant to notice, asked changes in legislation dealing with can­ the Premier- nabis are contemplated in New South For the latest 12 months for which Wales. I am not aware of any move figures are available, what was the value towards legalising the use of that drug. of (a) exports from Queensland to (i) overseas and (ii) other Australian States ( 2 and 3) There is no satisfactory evi­ and (b) imports into Queensland from (i) dence that cannabis or soft-drug use pro­ overseas and (ii) other Australian States? motes the use of harder drugs. Large numbers of users of, or experimenters with, Answer:- cannabis and soft drugs never proceed to narcotics. It is likely that those who Figures covering Queensland's overseas change their drug habits do so because of imports and exports for the year 197 5-7 6 certain personality qualities rather than on will be found in the February 1977 account of any "addictogenic" qualities of Monthly Summary of Statistics published cannabis or soft drugs. It is a fact that by the Australian Bureau of Statistics­ some users of cannabis or soft drugs do Reference No. 13-304. subsequently become users of narcotic As for Queensland's interstate trade, the drugs. latest figures available are for the year 1974-75. These are set out in the Aus­ tralian Bureau of Statistics publication 8. QuEENSLAND's BuDGETARY PosiTION entitled "Queensland-Overseas and Inter­ State Trade 1974-75"-Reference No. 53- Mr. Marginson for Mr. Houston, pursuant 302. So it cannot be said that we do not to notice, asked the Deputy Premier and give all the information in detail. Both Treasurer- of these publications are available in the With reference to this quotation from the Parliamentary Library. They are sent also Premier's address to the Queensland Petro­ to the Leader of the Opposition. It is a leum Exploration Association, as published pity that he did not show them to the in '"The Courier-Mail" of 24 March, honourable member. I am advised the "The export tax alone is worth some interstate trade figures for 1975-76 are $120,000,000 a year-more than enough to currently being finalised and will be avail­ take care of any budget deficit Queensland able shortly. might have now" and to his recent state­ ment that Queensland in all probability will have a balanced Budget this financial 10 and year, what is the present budgetary position 11. FORESTRY AND OTHER EMPLOYMENT of the Government and the expected rela­ FOR DISPLACED FRASER ISLAND tionship between expenditure and income WORKERS for the remainder of the financial year? Mr. Alison, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Lands, Forestry, National Parks and Wildlife Service- Answer:- With reference to the $300,000 of Com­ 1 submit that I have answered very monwealth funds allocated by the State fully previous questions put by the honour­ Government to the Forestry Department to able member in recent weeks on the State provide work for ex-Dillingham-Murphy­ Budget and I am somewhat at a loss to ores sand-mining workers for the period know how else I can state the position to 30 June and the $3,100,000 allocated to him. for the three years to 30 June 1980, what are the details of the programme of work The present State Government Con­ drawn up by the department for the two solidated Revenue Fund budget position periods, for what forest areas have these is quite sound indeed, owing, firstly, to funds been allocated and what is the the good budgetary control method exer­ respective number of jobs provided? cised by the Government and, secondly, to the degree of success the Federal Answer:- Government is having in its fight against The $300,000 allocated for the Forestry inflation, in that our cost increases this Department to the end of June will pro­ year are less than those for the last few vide direct employment for 40 to 50 men years and less than estimated. Because of (currently 46), who will be employed on this, we have been able to release an increased planting programme and $65,000,000 of Consolidated Revenue funds associated works on the Tuan and Toolara during the year for employment-generating State Forests and on the construction of capital works for roads, railways, sewerage, walking tracks through the State forest on schools, housing, hospitals, Agricultural Fraser Island. Bank loans, etc., in accordance with the statements I made in my Budget speech. Whilst the detailed programme for the remaining $3,100,000 has still to be final­ I expect the full year's result to be a ised, approximately the same number of balanced or near-balanced Budget. men will continue to be employed and, in 2836 Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice

addition to the above areas, it is expected July 1979 to June 1980:- that operations will commence on a further (1) Construction of camping area; area north of Maryborough. (2) Road maintenance; Non-departmental dozers will be used (3) Continuation of walking tracks. on clearing additional areas to provide scope for the increased employment level. (c) Staff, selected where possible from During this period expansion of recrea­ the pool of displaced Fraser Island miners, tional facilities on above State forests, will consist of two for the initial period particularly Fraser Island, will also be to July 1977, four for 1977-78, and the undertaken. number will increase to six for the remainder of the programme.

Mr. Alison, pursuant to notice, asked the 12. FORESTRY DEPARTMENT 0FF1CE Minister for Lands, Forestry, National Parks ACCOMMODATION, MARYBOROUGH and Wildlife Service-- Mr. AHson, pursuant to notice, asked the With reference to the $500,000 of Com­ Minister for Lands, Forestry, National Parks monwealth funds allocated by the State and Wildlife Service- Government for the National Parks and ( 1) Has his attention been drawn to the Wildlife Service to provide work for ex­ conditions under which Forestry Depart­ sand-mining workers for the period to 30 ment officers are working in the Forestry June 1977 and the $450,000 allocated for building, Maryborough, and, in particular, the three years to 30 June 1980, what that each employee has only 60 sq. ft. are the details of the programme of works in the main office and that the district drawn up by the department for the two forester has to share his office with an periods, indicating projects adopted and assistant forester? employees involved? (2) In view of the quite inadequate office accommodation arrangements, what Answer:- plans are in hand to provide a more suit­ (a) The honourable member refers to able office building for the department at $500,000 Federal funding for Fraser Island Maryborough? National Park for the period to 30 June 1977. The total amount over the period Answers:- ending 30 June 1980 is $500,000. The (1) I am aware that the Department of amount provided for the period ending Forestry has approached the Public Ser­ 30 June 1977 is $50,000. vice Board for allocation of additional (b) The details of the works proposed space in the building presently occupied. by the National Parks and Wildlife Ser­ However, as space in this building is vice from funds provided by the Com­ apparently fully committed, efforts are monwealth are as follows to 30 June being made to improve the situation as far 1977:- as possible by utilising to better advantage (1) Establishment of base camp on the area now available to the department. Bowarrady Road; (2) I have no detailed knowledge of any (2) Develop site for administrative plans to provide alternative accommodation centre; for the Forestry Department. However, I (3) Construct corduroy road from understand that the Minister for Works has beach; been asked to consider the construction of (4) Begin development of recreation a new Government building in Mary­ site· borough when finance permits. (S) General signposting. 1 July 1977 to 30 June 1978:- 13. NORTH-WEST QUEENSLAND/ (1} Complete construction of workers' NoRTHERN TERRITORY DEVELOPMENT STUDY accommodation; Mr. Ahem for Mr. Bertoni, pursuant to (2) Construct water supply system for notice, asked the Minister for Industrial administration centre; Development, Labour Relations and Con­ (3) Development of camping area with sumer Affairs- amenities; (1) When will the North-west Queens- (4) Construct garage and storeroom; laud/Northern Territory Development (5) Rehabilitation of degraded areas; Study be released? (6) Construct ranger's residence. (2) Will he give an assurance that the 1 July 1978 to June 1979:- Queensland State members representing (1) Construct office and administrative these areas will be consulted at least a centre; few days before the official release? (2) Construct workers' accommoda­ tion; Answers:- (3) Construct walking tracks, upgrade ( 1) The report of the North-west road, rehabilitate surrounding land­ Queensland/Northern Territory Develop­ scape. ment Study is expected to be received from Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice 2837

the consultants in its final form within the It will be of interest to the honourable next few days. It will then be reviewed by member that officers of my department in officers of both the State and Common­ conjunction with those of the Egg Market­ wealth Governments, which jointly com­ ing Board are planning a series of work­ missioned the study. shops designed to inform retailers and their staffs of the need for care in the handling (2) When the report of the officers is and storage of eggs at the retail level. received, the question of distribution and other matters incidental thereto will be (2) No. I never have insisted that eggs considered. sold by the board are always still fresh at time of purchase by the consumer. The 14. PROCESS FOR UPGRADING COPPER board, however, is doing everything pos­ MINERALS sible to ensure that eggs meet the standards laid down at time of dispatch from the Mr. Ahem for Mr. Bertoni, pursuant to board. Also, in its area of operations it notice, asked the Minister for Mines and supervises the rotation of stocks in retail Energy- stores and advises retailers on general Is he aware of the new metallurgical storage procedures to ensure the least pos­ process for upgrading copper minerals sible loss in quality before sale. which is being developed by Triako Mines N.L. and M.I.M. Holdings Limited and In the case of Mt. Isa I am informed could such a process alter the viability of a that eggs are delivered to the board's agent, custom treatment plant for small copper Hammond and Pedwell, by refrigerated producers in the Mt. Isa and Cloncurry rail wagon. These wagons operate at a mineral fields? temperature up to 4°C. maximum. The agent stores the eggs at 13 °C. Answer:- I am aware that a metallurgical process 16. WoRLD SuGAR POLICIES for treating copper ores is being developed by Triako Mines N.L. in association with Mr. Casey, pursuant to notice, asked the M.I.M. Holdings Limited. However, it is Minister for Primary Industries- understood that considerable research and ( 1) Is he aware of a recent meeting development are required before the eco­ between 22 Latin American and Caribbean nomic viability of the process can be sugar-exporting countries which resolved a determined. My technical officers will be definite policy approach to the forthcoming keeping a close watch on this development. International Sugar Conference in Geneva and also a recommendation to President 15. STORAGE CONDITIONS OF EGGS Carter by the United States International Trade Commission regarding future sugar Mr. Ahern for Mr. Bertoni, pursuant to import quotas into that country? notice, asked the Minister for Primary Industries- (2) If so, and as he is leader of the ( 1) With reference to his Press release Queensland sugar delegation to the Geneva of 22 March entitled ''Campaign to Ensure conference instead of the ·Premier, what Top Quality Eggs Marketed" and to the effects does he feel that these fixed actions booklet "The Incredible Egg" published by by a major group of exporters and a key the Egg Boards of Australia, which states importing country will have on the pos­ that eggs lose quality rapidly at warm sibility of negotiating a new International room temperatures and that there is a Sugar Agreement? rapid deterioration of well over 50 per cent within seven days in the quality of Answers:- eggs if stored between 21.2°C and 37.8°C (1) Yes. I am aware of both develop­ when the recommended temperature for ments. storage is under 15.5°C, is he aware that some large national retailers such as Coles An association of Latin American and and Woolworths are holding over one Caribbean sugar exporting countries was week's supply of eggs in storerooms and formed in 1975 and I am aware that one shops with temperatures around 32°C? of the regnlar meetings of the association (2) Does he still insist that many was held recently. Not unexpectedly, the Q.E.M.B. eggs are not stale before sale forthcoming International Sugar Con­ to Queensland consumers? ference was one of the listed agenda items for the meeting. However, I understand Answers:- that the members of the association did not agree on a common attitude to be expressed (1) No. When the retailers purchase eggs at the Geneva conference. Reports indicate from the Egg Board or its agents, the that they discussed the major issues but responsibility for the provision of proper did not seek to finalise a common nego­ storage passes to the retailers. Firms such tiating position. as Coles and Woolworths should be aware that perishable foodstuffs such as eggs It is true that the United States Inter­ require cool storage and suitable humidity national Trade Commission recently conditions to preserve quality. recommended the imposition of quotas on 2838 Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice

sugar imports and that the recommenda­ Answers:- tion is currently being considered by Pre­ (1) At the request of the Mackay City sident Carter and his advisers. But these Council provision has been made from the are not the only recommendations cur­ Traffic Engineering Trust Fund in the rently under consideration. A special Agri­ financial years 1976-77 and 1977-78 for culture Department task force has pre­ installation of traffic signals at the inter­ pared a report on sugar and the views of section of Sydney and Shakespeare Streets. all the various sectors of the industry have At present survey information to be pro­ been sought and given. As might be vided by the council is awaited. The instal­ expected, there is considerable divergence lation will follow immediately on comple­ of views and the trade commission's pre­ tion of design. ference for quotas is only one of the recommendations to be taken into account. (2) I am informed that there is some Another is full United States' participation congestion at the Victoria and Gordon in the forthcoming I.S.A. negotiations. Street intersections with Sydney Street around 5 p.m. I am informed also that (2) The attitude of the United States is the cause is considered to be the drivers certainly important to a successful nego­ entering intersections which are not clear. tiating conference. Government leaders of that country are on record as saying they (3) The Mackay City Council has will work hard at achieving a satisfactory requested the installation of traffic signals outcome. However, the attitudes of other at both the Shakespeare and Gordon major importing countries, such as Canada Street intersections with Sydney Street, and and Japan, will also be important. has placed top priority on those at Shakespeare Street. Installation of signals The E.E.C., with its increased export at Gordon Street will be considered when potential, is also important and reports formulating future programmes. As in indicate that, at the official level in Brus­ many cases, the need does not have to be sels, there is considerable support for a established. new Sugar Agreement. Of course, on the exporter side, the attitude of the Latin American and Caribbean countries will be 18. RAILWAY CAMP WAGONS important. World sugar authorities ack­ Mr. Glasson, pursuant to notice, asked the nowledge that Australia's position, as the Minister for Transport- largest exporter to the free market, will be a key factor. Our views are sought and As he is aware of my concern for the respected. Our past performance during improvement of accommodation for rail­ previous negotiations and our performance way employees in the Gregory electorate, as a member of operative I.S.A.s, have built when will the new type camp-wagon up a reputation of trust and reliability accommodation replace the present second­ which we will be seeking to maintain. class type of accommodation being used by the bridge and flying gangs? The honourable member will recall that I represented the Queensland Government Answer:- during the last conference when "the task In reply to a similar question asked by of leadership of the Queensland team" was the honourable member on 17 November delegated to me by the Premier. That 1976, I outlined the programme being experience will be of value during the prosecuted by the Railway Department for forthcoming conference. the progressive injection into the service of new camp wagons and for the provision of modern transportable camp units, as 17, TRAFFIC LIGHTS FOR SYDNEY STREET well as permanent camping sites for the INTERSECTIONS, MACXAY accommodation of migratory gangs. Mr. Casey, pursuant to notice, asked the Since that date the construction of a Minister for Local Government and Main further seven camp wagons has been vir­ Roads- tually completed in the Rockhampton ( 1) Has the Main Roads Department workshops, and approval has recently been programmed the installation of traffic lights given for the construction of a further at the intersection of Sydney and Shakes­ six camp wagons in those workshops as peare Streets, Mackay, and, if so, when a continuation of the programme. Further­ will this work be carried out? more, tenders have been invited and con­ tracts are about to be awarded for the (2) Is he aware that, as a result of supply of migratory gang transportable the daily congestion of traffic trying to accommodation units of steel-framed con­ get onto the Forgan Bridge across the struction in the form of nine bunk houses, Pioneer River at Mackay, severe dislocation 13 ablution blocks and six kitchen-diners. of cross-city traffic occurs because every intersection in the main city area becomes Camp wagons and the transportable blocked at peak hours? accommodation units are allocated to gangs on the basis of priorities, and the hon­ (3) Will he have a survey undertaken ourable member may be assured that the regarding the need for traffic lights at the claims of the area to which he referred intersection of Sydney and Gordon Streets will be fully taken into account in the to allow a better cross-city flow of traffic? determination of those priorities. Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice 2839

19 and 20. RECONSTITUTED Circle does not use imported concentrates FRUIT JUICES for reconstitution into juice products. Since the Temporary Assistance Authority l\ir. Ahem, pursuant to notice, asked the decision to limit imports of orange con­ Minister for Health- centrate, growers have found outlets for ( 1) Is he aware of the practice of mar­ all of their juicing oranges, and fresh keting fruit juices, particularly citrus juices, market prices are continuing to firm from 1n cartons where the juice is reconstituted the depressed prices experienced during concentrate often imported from overseas? 1975 and early 1976. (2) Is he aware that these products are Whilst I acknowledge the Australian promoted as "fresh" products and house­ orange industry's inability to fully supply wives are led to believe that the products processers' requirements, I am concerned are made from fresh Australian-grown at the prospects of uncontrolled imports. fruit? To this end, officers of my department \3) Will he consider an amendment to made extensive representations at the the Food and Drug Regulations to protect recent Industries Assistance Commission the interests of consumers so that the pro­ hearing on the Australian citrus industry. ducts are marketed on their merits? 21. SELECTION OF CHAIRMEN BY LoT Answers:­ (1) Yes. Dr. Lockwood, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Justice and Attorney­ (2) Aspects of the promotion of these General- products are being investigated. ( 1) In view of the report that the ( 3) If, following investigations, legis­ position of chairman of the South West lation is found to be inadequate, action Queensland Electricity Board was decided will be taken to amend the Food and by pulling his name from a hat, will he Drug Regulations. seek a Q.C.'s opinion and report to this Parliament on the legality of the method of selection having regard to the require­ Mr. Ahem, pursuant to notice, asked the ments laid down in the Electricity Act? Minister for Pfimary Industries- (2) If deciding by lot is in conformity ( 1) I;s he aware of the big increase in with the Electricity Act, what written or the sales of citrus juices in the State, unwritten law or laws support this pro­ where the juices are mainly reconstituted cedure? products from overseas? (3) If deciding by lot is held not to con­ (2) On behalf of Queensland growers stitute an election, will he have the selection whose industry is very depressed, will he of the chairman nullified? approach Queensland processers with a view to having a product marketed which Answer:- is made in Queensland from locally grown ( 1 to 3) The question by the honour­ products and is clearly recognisable as able member seeks legal opinion on hypo­ such? thetical facts. It is not my function to give or to obtain legal opinions in respect Answers:- of such matters, particularly as the Act ( 1) Statistics are not available for sales in question is administered by my col­ of citrus juice in Queensland. However, league the Honourable the Minister for Australian sales of orange juice have Mines and Energy. increased from an average of 75 600 tonnes If the honourable member provides fresh fruit equivalent in the period 1968-69 information to the Honourable the Minister to 1971-72 to 249 000 tonnes fresh fruit for Mines and Energy which indicates equivalent in 1975-76. Although orange that a possible breach of the law has juice imports were negligible up to 1972, occurred, then I would be happy to have imports increased dramatically to reach the Honourable the Minister furnished 77 500 tonnes fresh fruit equivalent in with any necessary advice in respect of 1975-76. that factual situation. I suggest, in the Because of industry concern at the circumstances, that the honourable increasing levels of orange juice imports, member take up with the Honourable the the matter was referred to the Temporary Minister and furnish him with any infor­ Assistance Authority, which consequently mation which he has in respect of the restricted imports, at current rates of duty, subject-matter. to a level of 62 000 tonnes fresh fruit equivalent for 1976-77. Imports of orange 22. ELECTRICITY CoNNECTIONS TO juice in excess of this figure are subject RUSSELL ISLAND to an additional tariff of 12 cents per litre. Mr. Marginson, pursuant to notice, asked (2) Golden Circle Cannery is the major the Minister for Mines and Energy- processer of citrus in Queensland and ( 1) Is he aware of newspaper reports processed some 6 800 tonnes of oranges that a widow called Betty Churchman liv­ during the 1976 cannery year. Golden ing on Russell Island, Moreton Bay, has 2840 Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice

stated that she has been advised by the (2) What studies have been undertaken Southern Electric Authority that it would in this regard and what have been the cost her $12,000 to have the power con­ results? nected, despite the fact that her residence is only approximately 10 light poles away (3) Will he consider reviewing the from the existing power supplies? existing State policy on solar energy in view of the findings of the energy research (2) Will he give an itemised account for the amount of $12,000? centre at the School of Physics at the Syd­ ney University? ( 3) What investigations have been con­ ducted by him or the Southern Electric Authority of Queensland to see if power Answers:- can be supplied to residents? (!) The major scientific breakthrough in solar energy reported recently was the An.l1wers:- development of a new type of solar collec­ (l) Yes, I am aware of the newspaper tor to produce heat at up to 300°C. report. Mrs. Churchman's residence is located on Marina Heights Estate on Substantial development is always re­ Russell Island, originally developed by quired between invention and commercial Regional Pastoral Co. Pty. Ltd. No formal production of any new device. approach has been made by the developers The electricity supply industry must to the Southern Electric Authority of necessarily await commercial production of Queensland for electricity reticulation on plant which can be bought after competi­ the estate. tive tendering-and plant, moreover, the (2) Mrs. Churchman's residence is performance of which can be guaranteed approximately 800 m from existing L.V. under penalty. mains. To make supply available to her The Departments of Electricity Supply residence and one other residence in the and Mines have no specific plans for same estate it would be necessary to con­ utilising this new development in solar struct 870 m of 11 kV mains ($7,160), energy but are maintaining a watching erect a 10 kVA one-pole transformer brief. station ($1,440), construct 160 m of L.V. mains ($1,700) and carry out associated (2) Investigations have been undertaken clearing work ($1,540), at a total prelim­ into solar water heaters and their effects inary estimated cost of $11,840. This on the future demand for electricity. At estimate was made in July 1976. current tariffs for electricity, the economics of transfer of the water-heating load from (3) Mrs. Churchman first approached the electrical to solar energy are doubtful. authority in April 1975 to inquire about the availability of supply. Since that time The electricity supply industry is sup­ the matter has been discussed on a number porting research by the Queensland Univer­ of occasions between Mrs. Churchman and sity into solar energy supplies to remote an officer of the authority located at rural dwellings in outback areas. Solar Cleveland. A preliminary survey was made energy may be an economic way to supply and established that only two residents on electricity as well as low-grade heat in the estate required electricity, involving a these cases because of the high costs of high-cost extension of mains. transmitting electricity to isolated con­ sumers in these remote areas. Mrs. Churchman was advised of the approximate cost of the work involved (3) No. The new development opens up and informed that such an extension would the possibilities of using solar energy to not be economic unless considerable devel­ supply the high-temperature heat required opment occurred on the estate. At no in the process industry. Its application to stage has a formal offer of supply been large-scale generation of electricity may made to Mrs. Churchman, nor has she take decades of further research and been asked to meet the estimated cost of development. the extension.

23. SOLAR ENERGY 24. KAMERUNGA AND AVONDALE BRIDGES Mr. Marginson, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Mines and Energy- :Mr. Tenni, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Local Government and Main (1) With reference to recent reports that Roads- four physicists at the Sydney University have made a major scientific breakthrough When will construction of the Kame­ which could make solar energy economic runga Bridge over the Barron River and in Australia and for most of the world, the Avondale Bridge at Smithfield com­ what plans has either his department or mence, in order to have an all-weather the electricity authorities in Queensland road for people on the northern side of with regard to solar energy? the Barron River? Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice 2841

All9Wer:- The school grounds are reported to be overgrown with grass and arrangements Construction of the Kamerunga Bridge have been made to have it slashed to is currently programmed to commence ascertain the condition of the playing about April 1979, and the Avondale Creek area. A sufficient quantity of topsoil will Bridge to start about September 1979. be provided to bring the surface into a This timing may vary depending upon the reasonable condition for general play pur­ level of funds made available by the Com­ poses. monwealth Government in the particular categories. However, planning for the The new building contract provides for design of the new crossing is proceeding the top-dressing of the building platform as soon as possible. and batter banks. It should be noted, however, that although this work will upgrade the standard of these two crossings, owing to 27. COMPTON ROAD UNDERPASS other low-immunity sections in the Red­ Mrs. Kyburz, pursuant to notice, asked lynch Freshwater area and at Carabonica the Minister for Local Government and it will not result in a completely all-weather Main Roads- route. ( 1) As the negotiations among the Albert Shire Council, Brisbane City 25. BARRON RIVER BRIDGE AT STRATFORD Council, his department and the Railway Department have taken at least two years, Mr. Temti, pursuant to notice, asked the whom can the people of Woodridge accuse Minister for Local Government and Main for holding up any repairs to Compton Roads- Road underpass? (1) When will the Barron River Bridge at Stratford be completed? (2) As bureaucratic procrastination is not understood by many people, will he (2) When will the northern and south­ direct the councils concerned to take tem­ ern approaches to the bridge be completed porary measures and divert heavy traffic and when will it be open to traffic? around Acacia Road as I have suggested? Answers:- Answer:- {1) The Barron River Bridge at Stratford is programmed for completion in October ( I and 2) The honourable member asks 1977. whom can we blame. To be honest I must say there is a certain amount of (2) The northern approach and the buck-passing going on. We could blame southern approach from Tully Street to any one of three or four different author­ the Barron River are programmed for ities. I appreciate that the honourable completion by Christmas 1977. The member for Salisbury has worked very bridge will be opened for traffic at that hard to overcome the difficulties associated time using a temporary connection ,to the with this part of Compton Road. It is a present highway via Tully Street. Con­ boundary road. The cost the honourable struction of the balance of the deviation member refers to is to the order of from Saltwater Creek to Tully Street is $300,000 or $400,000. I have had dis­ anticipated for completion by the end of cussions with the chairman of the Albert 1978. Shire (Mr. Hugh Muntz), who indicated to me that the Albert Shire Council would be prepared to allocate about $100,000 26. IMPROVEMENTS AT MT. MOLLOY towards the cost of the scheme. Like­ SCHOOL wise, I have had discussions with ,the Brisbane City Council, which believes that Mr. Tenni, pursuant to notice, asked the its contribution would be to the order of Minister for Works and Housing- $100,000. The Main Roads Department is ( 1) Will the demountable building for prepared to make a contribution. I sug­ Mt. Molloy School be installed before the gest to the honourable member that it middle of April? might be a good idea if she were to speak to her colleague the Minister for (2) Will 500 cubic yards of loam be Transport, a member of her own party, to supplied at this new school for the parents see if it is possible to raise some funds and citizens' association to spread and from the Railway Department. As I say, plant lawn over the rocks and clay that this is a major job and it is easy to pass presently make up the main part of the the buck. We can blame one another, school land? but the longer we do that, ,the longer it will be before the job is done. Answer:- I repeat that the honourable member (1 and 2) My department's district has worked very hard for this problem officer has reported that the new school area in Compton Road. We are trying to building is now available for occupation. help her. I do not propose to direct the 2842 Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice

councils, but I do intend to make further Answers:- representations ·to •them on the honour­ able member's behalf. (!) The report has been received from the Law Reform Commission but as sev­ eral other matters have been raised I pro­ 28. TRAFFIC LIGHTS AND SIGNS, KINGSTON pose to refer the report back to the com­ AND SMITH ROADS, WOODRIDGE mission for further consideration. The report is therefore not available for tabling Mrs. Kyburz, pursuant to notice, asked the in Parliament at present. Minister for Local Government and Main Roads-- '(2) I am advised that changes to the Criminal Code relating to evidence were (1) Further to his advice, which I considered by the commission when com­ received in July 1976, that traffic lights piling its report. would be installed at the junction of Kingston and Smith Roads in Woodridge, when will the lights be installed and func­ tioning? 30. FRASER ISLAND TIMBER (2) What is the cost of such an installa­ Mr. Dean, pursuant to notice, asked the tion and to what extent is the Albert Shire Minister for Lands, Forestry, National Parks Council financially involved in road-works and Wildlife Service- and signs on Kingston Road? (1) What was the average royalty col­ lected in 1975-76 for native hardwood Answers:- timbers produced on (a) all Queensland (1) It is anticipated that the traffic sig­ State forests and (b) Fraser Island? nals at the Kingston Road/Smith Road (2) What was the total volume of tim­ intersection will be functioning early in the ber produced and the average number of 1977-78 financial year. Forestry Department employees per­ (2)- manently employed on Fraser Island in (a) The cost of this installation will be each of the last five years? approximately $50,000. There are }faria­ (3) What was the total revenue col­ tions in cost from site to site depending lected from the sale of timber products on the volume of traffic, turning move­ ments to be accommodated, etc. from Fraser Island and what were the total costs of conducting Fraser Island forestry (b) At the present moment Kingston operations in each of the last five years? Road is a declared secondary road. Therefore, the Albert Shire Council is required to repay 25 per cent of the Answers:- cost of road-works and signs carried (!) The average royalty collected for out under a permanent works scheme native hardwood for 1975-76 was- and 30 per cent of the cost of signs erected under maintenance. As the road State Forests Queensland-$5.80 per will become a declared main road under cubic metre; the road plan review, the repayments by Fraser Island-$5.91 per cubic metre. the shire will change to 10 per cent for permanent works and nil for mainten­ (2) Details over ,the last five years for ance. Fraser Island are--

Year Total Timber Cut 'I Average Number 29. REPORT OF LAW REFORM of Employees COMMISSION ·------1------1971-72 18 227 m' 1 24 Mrs. Kyburz, pursuant to notice, asked the 1972-73 18 632 m' ! 20 Minister for Justice and Attorney-General- 1973-74 20 652m' 21 1974-75 15 286m3 17 ( 1) As I received advice early in 1975-76 18 931 m' 13 August last year that the Law Reform Commission would shortly complete its report and recommendations on the laws (3) Revenue collections are readily avail­ relating to rape, is the report now complete able for the past three years only: and available to members of Parliament? Revenue from sale Total Cost of Fraser (2) Have the recommendations of the Year of Timber Products Island Operations Queensland Council of Women on the $ $ changes to the Criminal Code, particularly 1971-72 Not available 137,063 relating to laws of evidence, been taken 1972-73 Not available 131,440 1973-74 61,300 160,198 into account and dealt with as a matter 1974-75 92,500 145,092 of urgency by the Law Reform Commis­ 1975-76 109,200 148,304 sion? Questions Upon Notice (5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice 2843

31. NURSING STAFF EsTABLISHME,NTS, 32. DRUG OFFENDERS BRISBANE HOSPITALS Mr. Dean, pursuant to notice, asked the Mr. Dean, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Justice and Attorney-General- Minister for Health- ( 1) Do courts currently refer young ( 1) What were the nursing staff estab­ people directly to gaol after conviction for lishments and the actual staff at the Royal drug addiction? Brisbane, Women's and Children's Hos­ pitals as at 1 February 1976 and what are (2) Where are drug pedlars currently they at present? sent after conviction when they are (a) addicted themselves and (b) not addicted? (2) What were the monthly overtime totals at each hospital in November, (3) How many have needed medical December and January for (a) nurses, (b) treatment? domestics and (c) sisters? Answers:- Mr. KNOX: As the information is some­ what lengthy and involves a lot of figures (1) Depending on the facts and circum­ I table it and ask that it be incorporated in stances presented to the court, including pre­ "Hansard". vious convictions, if any, the offender, after conviction might be- (a) sentenced to serve a period of Answers:- imprisonment; or (1) Nursing staff establishments for the (b) released on probation for a speci­ Royal Brisbane, Royal Women's and Royal fied period subject to a condition that Children's Hospitals as at 1 February he submits to treatment. 1976 and at present are as follows:- Where imprisonment is ordered, the 1 February 1976: warrant is endorsed that the offender is to be medically examined on admission to Hospital Establishment Employed prison, and is to receive such treatment as is considered necessary. Royal Brisbane 1,091 1,027 Royal Women's 408 385 If the offender is released on probation, Royal Children's 265 254 the order for probation is conditioned that he submit to such medical, psychiatric 31 March 1977: and/or psychological treatment as the Director of Psychiatric Services considers Hospital Establishment Employed necessary. He is, of course, supervised by a probation officer. If the offender dis­ Royal Brisbane 1,124 1,161 obeys the condition, he may be charged Royal Women's 408 376 with a breach of a condition of his pro­ Royal Children's 299 293 bation order. (2) Drug pedlars are almost invariably (2) Overtime totals at each of the above sentenced to a term of imprisonment, hospitals are as follows:- whether or not they are addicted them­ selves. Hospital Month Staff Category Hours (3) Details of medical treatment are not held by the Justice Department. This Royal Nov. 1976 Registered nurses 431 Brisbane Other nurses 185 part of the question should be directed to Dornestics .. 299 the Honourable the Minister for Health. Dec. 1976 Registered nurses 621 Other nurses 267 Domestics .. 161 Jan. 1977 Registered nurses 368 SILTATION AT TOONDAH HARBOUR, Other nurses 158 33. Domestics .. 204 CLEVELAND Royal Nov. 1976 Registered nurses 61 Children's Other nurses 75 Mr. Ahem for Mr. Goleby, pursuant to Domestics .. 21 Dec. 1976 Registered nurses 84 notice, asked the Minister for Tourism and Other nurses 107 Marine Services- Domestics .. 27 Jan. 1977 Registered nurses 33 As tenders are to be called for dredging Other nurses 42 at the Victoria Point jetty to overcome Domestics .. 39 Royal Nov. 1976 Registered nurses 23 the siltation problem, will he take similar Women's Other nurses 15 action to overcome the dangerous siltation Domestics .. 62 problem at Toondah Harbour, Cleveland, Dec. 1976 Registered nurses 67 Other nurses 45 at the approach to the boat ramp? Dornestics 44 Jan. 1977 Registered nurses 33 Answer:- Other nurses 22 Domestics .. 59 In relation to the approach channel to ------the boat ramp at Toondah Boat Harbour, The information outlined in (1) and (2) I would refer the honourable member to above has been supplied to me by the my answer to his question of 9 March North Brisbane Hospitals Board. 1977. 2844 Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice

34. HIGHWAY LITTERING, TOOWOOMBA 36. PRECAUTIONS AGAINST NIGHT ACCIDENTS RANGE FOR COUNTRY POLICE CARS Mr. Ahern for Mr. Warner, pursuant to Mr. Lester, pursuant to notice, asked the notice, asked the Minister for Local Govern­ Minister for Police- ment and Main Roads-- Will he allow country policemen to place ( 1) As a disgraceful litter situation driving lights and kangaroo bars on their exists on both sides of the main highway cars to avoid having numerous night leading into Toowoomba on the range side accidents? of that highway, who is responsible for its cleaning? Answer:- (2) What action will he take to see The fitting of this equipment has that this section is cleaned and kept received consideration over a number of clean? years. Although many kangaroo bars have been examined by the Police Depart­ Mr. HINZE: I thank the honourable mem­ ment, an efficient bar designed for fitting ber for his question. He asked who is to sedan motor vehicles has not been responsible for littering the roads. Of course found. In fact, many of such bars pre­ I would have to say that it results from the sently on the market could cause damage attitude of Queensland motorists. Apparently instead of preventing it. we throw everything out of the car. It is a good job that wives have seat-belts across All new police motor sedan vehicles them; otherwise perhaps some of them would are XC Ford sedans, which are fitted go out, too. It is a pleasure to drive through with quartz halogen headlights. These some local authority areas which are doing are of similar power and brightness to all something about the litter problem. By com­ but the most expensive driving lights. parison with some overseas countries and Therefore, no advantage would be served some other States, obviously there is some­ in the fitting of additional driving lights thing wrong with Queensland motorists. to new Falcon police motor vehicles. I now read the prepared answer. Answer:- 37. BRIDGE OVER RETREAT CREEK {1 and 2) Cleaning of the litter is a Mr. Lester, pursuant to notice, asked the routine maintenance function. However, Minister for Local Government and Main the level of funds available does not permit Roads- litter clean-ups on a daily basis. It is likely Will he have a bridge built over Retreat therefore that there will be some build-up Creek on the Gregory Highway between between routine cleaning operations. Clermont and Emerald to avoid long A special effort will be made immediately delays owing to flooding? to rectify the condition which the honour­ able member has brought to my attention. Answer:- There are insufficient funds available in 35. SAFETY RAMP, ToowooMBA 1977-78 to allow this bridge to be pro­ grammed having regard to existing com­ HIGHWAY mitment on such major bridges at 1he Mr. Ahern for Mr. Warner, pursuant to Dawson and Comet Rivers. The level of notice, asked the Minister for Local Govern­ funds available after 1977-78 is not yet ment and Main Roads- known. As the safety ramp on the range highway Considering the enormous funds that we leading out of Toowoomba is in a danger­ are spending on bridges over the Dawson ous condition owing to lack of proper drain­ and Comet Rivers in the Belyando elect­ age, will he have this matter investigated orate-and not without good reason­ so that it can be used in safety? ! ask the honourable member in all ser­ iousness if he would mind if I spent some Answer:- of my funds in the other 81 electorates of The design of the safety ramps incor­ Queensland. porates a top layer of some 300 mm of loose river gravel which is intended to aid in the retardation of an out-of-control 38. FAIRBAIRN DAM vehicle. By its very nature, this river gravel is free-draining. However, over a Mr. Lester, pursuant to notice, asked the period of time the river gravel becomes Minister for Water Resources-- contaminated with clay, refuse, vegetable What is the current situation relating matter, etc. so that to some extent its to the total progress of the Fairbairn Dam ability to retard an out-of-control vehicle project? is diminished and, further, it is no longer free-draining. It is intended that the con­ Answer:- taminated gravel be replaced with clean With the exception of gravelling of new gravel to improve both the retarding effect roads and some minor structures, virtually and the drainage. all of the works required for the left bank Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice 2845

of the Nogoa River are now completed. assaults and breaking and entering offences Opening of two remaining new farms on rise, even though the number of police in this bank is currently being considered. the force rose from 3,353 to 4,034 or from 602 to 565 members of the public per Construction of the W eemah Main police officer? Channel, which serves 'the right bank area, has commenced. A tender for the earth­ (2) Will he endeavour to see that there works for the first 10·5 kilometres of this is a concentration by the force in the channel was recently accepted. Plans for priority area of serious crime rather than the balance of the works to be constructed with minor traffic offence convictions, which on the right bank will be completed by rose from 39,750 to 48,007 between 1971 the end of 1977. Provided adequate funds and 1975? can be made available in future years, con­ ( 3) Will he give further consideration struction of works to serve 80 farms will to the establishment of the community­ be completed in about three years' time. policeman concept in order to not only raise community respect for the force, but also enable individual policemen to be 39. CORPORATE AFFAIRS INSPECTOR closer to the public generally? Mr. K. J. Hooper, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Works and Housing- Answers:- With reference to the position of (!) As the increase in the number of inspector in the Building Societies Branch, crimes cannot be attributed to one person, Inspection Section, of the Office of the I am unable to answer this question. Commissioner for Corporate Affairs, which World-wide trends reflect these increasee~ has recently been advertised by the Gov­ which are not restricted to Queensland ernment, will he give an explanation of alone. the qualifications and guide-lines set down (2) All appropriate measures commen­ for this position? surate with availability of manpower and finance will be taken to reduce the crime Answer:- rate. Likewise, whilst traffic enforcement remains the responsibility of the Police Qualification statements for all vacant Department, all necessary steps will be classified positions in the Public Service are obtainable from the Department of the taken to reduce the toll of the road. Public Service Board. (3) Yes.

40. MEALS ON WHEELS 42. WAGE INDEXATION AND MEDIBANK LEVY Mr. Byrne, pursuant to notice, asked the Minister for Health- Mr. Byrne, pursuant to notice, asked the ( 1) Is he aware of the increasing Deputy Premier and Treasurer- financial difficulty which the "Meals On ( 1) Is he aware of the results of the Wheels" organisation is experiencing? Commonwealth Arbitration Commission's (2) In view of the important function decision in relation to wage indexation and it performs in the community and, as State­ the Medibank levy? run hospitals and instrumentalities recom­ (2) If so, what effect will the decision mend their ex-patients and clients to the have upon the economic climate in Aus­ organisation, will he investigate the pos­ tralia and the endeavour to curtail inflation sibility of making financial or other aid and unemployment? available so that it can remain viable and expand its services to the community? Answers:­ (1) Yes. Answer:- (2) Australia is still caught in a damag­ (1 and 2) Meals on Wheels organisations ing wage-price spiral. The Consumer Price receive financial assistance from the Com­ Index for the six State capitals increased monwealth Department of Social Security. 14.4 per cent between the 1975 and 1976 Some Meals on Wheels organisations are December quarters, although the trend in based on senior citizens' centres. Many of the latter months, if we exclude the artifi­ these centres have been constructed from cial influence of Medibank, is much funds provided by the Commonwealth and improved. State Governments and local organisations. The Arbitration Commission in its latest decision felt bound not to award a full 41. POLICE PRIORITIES flow on of the movement in the Consumer Price Index for the December 1976 quarter Mr. Byrne, pursuant to notice, asked the because of the adverse effect this would Minister for Police- have had on the national economy. lt ( 1) In view of former Police Com­ settled on a compromise position which, missioner Whitrod's presumed expertise in however, will still not ease the task of crime clean-up from 1971 to 1975, why the Federal Government curtailing inflation did the number of homicides, serious and unemployment. 2846 Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice

43. ScHOOL SITES TO WEST AND SOUTH OF Answer:- BEENLEIGH No. The district office headquarters Mr. Gibbs, pursuant to notice, asked the and depot facilities in the depaDtment's Minister for Works and Housing- Ipswich Road workshops area are adequate ( 1) What are the latest developments for the operational needs in ,the Gold regarding the purchase of school sites to Coast/ Albert Shire area for the time being. the west and south of Beenleigh, how many sites are there and where are they situated? Mr. YEWDALE: I point out, Mr. Acting (2) Which site is being considered for Speaker, that the preamble has been taken a high school? out of question No. 46, which certainly changes its context. Nevertheless, I ask the Answer:- question as it appears on the notice paper. (1 and 2) Three primary school sites and one high school site have been investi­ gated in relation to meeting future edu­ 46. FIRE BRIGADES ACT AMENDMENT cational needs to the south and west of BILL Beenleigh. Mr. Y ewdale, pursuant to notice, asked Action is presently being taken by the the Minister for Industrial Development, Land Administration Commission to Labour Relations and Consumer Affairs- acquire one primary school site with a frontage to Mt. Warren Boulevard in the ( 1) In the main, were the trustees Mr. Mt. Warren Park Estate. The remaining King and Mr. Heath not consulted regard­ two primary school sites are receiving ing the recent amendments to the Fire consideration in the Department of Edu­ Brigade Act? cation in conjunction with available infor­ mation respecting probable future res­ (2) Did his under secretary decline idential development. a position on the board of trustees and The Land Administration Commission was Mr. Clarke appointed to the board? has also been requested to initiate the ( 3) Before introducing the recent necessary action for the acquisition of a amendments, was consideration given to high school site just south of Windaroo the requirements of the Trusts Act, which Creek and with a frontage to the Been­ provides a limitation of no more than leigh-Beaudesert Road. four members on the board of trustees?

44. SCHOOL SITE, ANGLERS PARADISE/ Answer:- PARADISE POINT AREA (1 to 3) One of the recent amendments Mr. Gibbs, pursuant to notice, asked the to the Fire Brigades Act was with respect Minister for Works and Housing- to the composition of the trustees of the What is the up-to-date information on Fire Brigade Employees Superannuation the acquisition of a high school and prim­ Plan. This was an exercise in democratic ary school site being considered near Pine representation and I am surprised that the Ridge Road in the Anglers Paradise/Para­ honourable member is querying it. dise Point area? The honourable member should realise the weakness in the composition of the Answer.'- present trustees is that it is very much Action initiated in 1976 for the acquis­ Brisbane oriented; it does not have any ition of a combined primary and high representation from country fire brigade school site just north of the junction of boards, and it has no specific representa­ Pine Ridge and Coombabah Roads was tion from fire brigade employees. The discontinued because objections lodged by amendments to the Act correct this obvious ,the owners to the resumption of the land imbalance in representation. for school purposes were considered to be valid. The Land Administration Com­ Last year my under secretary declined mission has now been requested to acquire appointment as a trustee because he con­ an alternative site. sidered such an appointment would be incompatible with his responsibilities as permanent head of the department and 45. WORKS DEPARTMENT DEPOT, GOLD recommended, as being more appropriate, COAST/ ALBERT SHIRE AREA that the chairman of the State Fire Ser­ vices Council be appointed in his stead. Mr. Gibbs, pursuant to notice, asked the Finally, my legal advisers inform me that Minister for Works and Housing- the amendment to the Fire Brigades Act, Further to my question on 12 November when it becomes law, will override, with 1975 regarding a Works Department main respect to the Fire Brigade Employees depot and workshop in the Gold Coast/ Superannuation Plan, any limitation on the Albert Shire area, has any decision been number of trustees under the Trust Act of made to establish such a depot? 1973. Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice 2847

47. PRICES OF SPARE PARTS FOR MOTOR this House on 29 March indicated that the VEHICLES AND AGRICULTURAL 1974 election campaign promise of long MACHINERY service leave for all workers was withdrawn because of representations from members Mr. Yewdale, pursuant to notice, asked from country electorates, what other the Minister for Industrial Development, promises in the 1974 policy have been Labour Relations and Consumer Affairs- withdrawn because of similar representa­ ( 1) How many complaints has the Con­ tions, or is this promise to workers the sumer Affairs Bureau received from con­ only promise broken in this fashion? sumers regarding the high cost of spare parts for motor vehicles and agricultural Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: In the first machinery? place, I must point out that the honourable member is quite wrong when he says that the (2) Will the bureau, his department or suggested legislation was withdrawn because the State Government be making any of representations made by members from submission at the Prices Justification country electorates. That is quite untrue. Tribunal's inquiry into the prices of spare parts of motor vehicles and agricultural Mr. Houston: The Minister said it. machinery and, if not, what are the reasons? Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: It was a deci­ (3) What programme has been under­ sion made by the joint Government parties taken by the Government in relation to the after full agreement had been reached by reduction of prices for spare parts to assist those parties. I want to make that quite the motorist and the man on the land with clear. relation to agricultural machinery? Opposition Members interjected. Answer:- Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! The Pre­ (1 to 3) Complaints received by the Con­ mier will be heard in silence or I will invoke sumer Affairs Bureau which have involved the Standing Orders. prices, on the one hand, and motor vehicles and agricultural machinery on the other, Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: I could not have not been so indexed as to indicate miss the opportunity to correct the honour­ the number of complaints received about able member. Evidently he does not know the high cost of spare parts for motor what is the true position, but that is exactly vehicles and agricultural machinery. It is correct-dead right-so he can put that in therefore not possible, in the time available, his pipe and smoke it. I now read the pre­ to indicate the number of complaints pared answer. received about the high cost of spare parts for motor vehicles and agricultural Answer:- machinery. It is ridiculous for the Opposition to ask The Consumer Affairs Council has such a question of the leader of a Govern­ already carried out a survey of the prices ment, whoever he might be. in Queensland of certain spare parts used in popular makes of motor vehicles and, Therefore, it is more in the nature of a in the cases of those particular parts, it sympathetic gesture than in an endeavour reached the conclusion that there were no to make political capital out of his inquiry serious discrepancies between manufac­ that I inform him my Government has turers' recommended prices and actual either implemented, or is in the process retail prices. of implementing, the policies it believes will be most beneficial to the welfare and I would welcome any extension into advancement of Queensland and its people, Queensland of the Prices Justification Tri­ and we will always do that. bunal's activities in this regard, because the interstate nature of the transactions involved makes it difficult for any State 49. AWOONGA DAM authority to adequately investigate all the ramifications. Mr. Prest, pursuant to notice, asked the Premier- Cl) Has a final decision been made as 48. ELECTION PROMISES TO WORKERS to the type of wall to be built to increase BROKEN AFTER COUNTRY the storage capacity of the Awoonga Dam? REPRESENTATIONS (2) What will be the height of the wall Mr. Yewdale, pursuant to notice, asked and what is the estimated cost? the Premier- (3) Will this wall cause water to cover As the Minister for Industrial Relations any part of the Calliope/Many Peaks road has had protracted discussions with the causing it to be re-routed? Building Workers' Industrial Union and its officers including Mr. H. Hamilton, Presi­ ( 4) Will certain work such as buildings dent of the Communist Party, and as the and power facilities already constructed Minister for Industrial Development, have to be relocated because of this deci­ Labour Relations and Consumer Affairs in sion to build a new type of wall? 2848 Questions Upon Notice [5 APRIL 1977] Questions Upon Notice

(5) What was the cost of these facilities 51. USE OF DETERGENTS ON OIL SPILLS and buildings which may have to be Mr. Prest, pursuant to notice, asked the relocated? Minister for Tourism and Marine Services- (6) What will be the cost to relocate (!) Is he aware of recent reports that these buildings and f,acilities? a South Australian marine expert, Mr. R. C. Illert, claimed that the use of detergents Answers:- on oil spills in coastal waters could lead to ( I) The Gladstone Area Water Board children being deformed within ooe or two has decided to proceed with the design of generations? a rockfill dam. (2) How many litres of dispersant have (2) The full supply height will be 30 been used on the Queensland coastline to metres AHD (Australian Height Datum) clean up oil spills? and a preliminary estimate of cost is (3) How much such detergent is being $20,600,000. stored by the State Government? (3) There could be some minor re­ ( 4) How much detergent is being stored routing required but this has yet to be by oil companies and other authorities? investigated in detail. (5) Will he undertake to review this (4 to 6) Certain works at the dam, the situation whereby dispersants and deter­ cost of which was approximately $100,000, gents are said to be more harmful to may have to be relocated. marine life than oil and are a health threat to people by turning oil into a sponge which picks up cancer-causing chlorinated 50. TOURIST INDUSTRY WoRK-FORCE hydrocarbons and contaminates large areas of ocean very quickly, thus threatening Mr. Prest, pursuant to notice, asked the future generations of Queenslanders? Minister for Tourism and Marine Services- ( 1) What percentage of the Queensland Mr. HODGES: The answer is rather work-force is employed in the tourist indus­ lengthy so I ask leave to table it and have it try? included in "Hansard". (2) What is the total estimated contribu­ Answers:- tion that this industry makes to the Queensland economy? ( I) I am not aware of any claims in this respect either by Mr. R. C. Il!ert of South (3) How much money and aid were pro­ Australia or from any other source vided by the Commonwe,alth Government throughout the world. to the industry for 1975-76 and 1976-77 through the State Government? (2) Apart from an estimated 21 803 litres used following the grounding of the ( 4) What constructive action has he "Oceanic Grandeur" in the Barrier Reef taken to obtain additional Commonwealth in March 1970, no dispersant has been aid for Queensland following his criticism used on the main sea coastline of Queens­ to the Bribie Island Chamber of Com­ land. The policy of the Government of merce in January this year of his Federal Queensland now states that dispersant may colleagues, when he said that tourism has be used only in certain circumstances- been an area of Federal neglect and not (a) when there is danger to human taken seriously by the Fraser Government? life through fire or other causes; (b) in the case of minor spills in Answers:- so-called "marine deserts" such as dredged harbours; (!) It is estimated that 10 per cent of the Queensland work-force is employed in (c) where selected sea-bird sanctuaries the tourist industry. may be threatened. (3) Stockpiles of low-toxicity dispersants (2) $150,000,000. are maintained by the Commonwealth (3) The Commonwealth Government Government at major ports throughout paid $197,882 in 1975-76 to Queensland Australia. In Queensland, the ports of Brisbane and Cairns have such stockpiles, towards assistance to historic buildings and which include equipment and back-up tourist attractions. It is expected that material for emergency use. The State $147,091 will be received in 1976-77 for Government does not carry stocks of dis­ the same purpose, being to finalise all persant. grants approved prior to the discontinuing of the scheme. (4) I would refer the honourable mem­ ber to the secretary of the Petroleum (4) Representations to the Common­ Industry Environmental Committee Execu­ wealth Gov,ernment for a continuation of tive, who has the required information. the grant scheme have not been successful. Queensland harbour authorities maintain a However, the Commonwealth Government small quantity of low-toxicity dispersant for has established a select committee to in­ use in cases of nuisance spills within their quire into all aspects of the tourist industry. harbours. Questions Without Notice [5 APRIL 1977] City of Brisbane, &c., Bill 2849

(5) The Queensland Government policy cent increase in roads spending (18 per states that, unless circumstances as out­ cent in real terms), refer not to the general lined in the answer to question (2) are situation, of course, but to only one cate­ present, oil shall be recovered by physical gory. For example, Queensland's overall means or left alone to disperse naturally. allocation for next financial year is 10 per Natural dispersal occurs rather rapidly in cent more than this year's allocation. I the tropical and subtropical climate of must thank the Treasurer of Queensland for our State. allocating $13,000,000 this year from the The siltation is under constant review State Treasury to keep road-works going in by a Queensland Government inter­ Queensland. departmental committee, and also by a committee of advisers who meet regularly Mr. ACTiNG SPEAKER: Order! The in Canberra. These latter meetings are time allotted for questions has now expired. attended by representatives of several Commonwealth departments, environmen­ talists, fisheries and wildlife officials of RACING AND BETTING ACT C.S.I.R.O., State marine authorities and AMENDMENT BILL the oil industry. Members attend inter­ national symposia under the auspices of INITIATION the Inter-Government Marine Consultative Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Deputy Organisation in order to be apprised of the Premier and Treasurer), by leave, without latest developments in this field. notice: I move- I would assure the honourable member "That the House will, at its present for Port Curtis that every conceivable sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of effort is being made to combat this prob­ the Whole to consider introducing a Bill lem and that the State of Queensland is an to amend the Racing and Betting Act acknowledged leader in the field. 1954-1975 in certain particulars." Motion agreed to. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

INSPECTION OF QUEENSLAND ROADS BY PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE FEDERAL MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT TRANSITIONAL BILL Mr. IvfULLER: I ask the Minister for Local Government and Main Roads: Is it a INITIATION fact that the Federal Minister for Transport Hon. J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah (Mr. Peter Nixon) is now inspecting roads -Premier), by leave, without notice: I in Queensland? move- Mr. H1NZE: This is a Dorothy Dixer. "That the House will, at its present I understand that the Federal Minister for sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of Transport (Mr. Peter Nixon) is now inspect­ the Whole to consider introducing a Bill ing roads in the Central Queensland area. to provide for rthe continuance of the It is good to see the Federal Minister Committee of Subordinate Legislation taking an interest in improving Queensland beyond the prorogation of the Legislative roads, including the Bruce Highway, and Assembly; to preserve the operation of acknowledqing that there is a need to upgrade the resolution of 8 September 1976 by them. I hope that i\!r. Nixon will press which that committee was appointed; and this view very strongly with his Cabinet to provide for the completion of unfinished colleagues to gain the additional $20,000,000 business of that committee." of Commonwealth funds for Queensland roads that the Premier will be discussing Motion agreed to. with the Prime Minister next week, among Queensland's submissions to the Premiers' Conference. CITY OF BRISBANE TOWN PLANNING Mr. Nixon's point about the State's Budget ACT AND ANOTHER ACf spending on roads declining is pretty nebulous AMENDMENT BILL when one considers that the situation is pre­ INITIATION cisely the same at Commonwealth level, that is, as a percentage of overall Budget Hon. R. J. HiNZE (South Coast-Minister spending on roads and transport generally. for Local Government and Main Roads), In fact, the situation in Queensland is much by leave, without notice: I move- better than that in other States. Queensland "That the House will, at its present has consistently spent more on roads than sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of it is obligated to spend under Federal legis­ the Whole to consider introducing a Bill lation. It has always exceeded its Federal to amend the City of Brisbane Town legislation quotas, and will do so again this Planning Aot 1964-1976 and the Acquisi­ financial year. Queensland spends about tion of Land Act 1967-1969 each in certain $77,000,000 compared with its quota obli­ particulars." gation of $53,500,000. The figures attri­ buted to Mr. Nixon, which suggest a 30 per Motion agreed to. 92 2850 Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977} Commonwealth Constitution

CONSTITUTION ACT AND ANOTHER 3. precluding 1this Parliament from ACT AMENDMENT BILL exercising its sovereign role as regards casual Senate vacancies by giving to INITIATION 'political parties' an entitlement super­ seding that of Parliament; Hon. J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah -Premier): I move- 4. fundamentally altering the federal "That the House will, at its present system of Government in Australia, sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of agrees and resolves to recommend to the the Whole to consider introducing a Bill electors of the State of Queensland rejection to amend the Constitution Act of 1867 of the proposals in these referendums." (as amended from time to time) in certain particulars and the Legislative Assembly I say, "Beware of Federal Governments Act 1867-1971 in a certain particular and seeking constitutional change". Referendums for another purpose." always seek to increase Canberra's powers at the expense of the States, never the other Motion agreed to. way round. The questions being asked are neither vital ALBERT SHIRE COUNCIL (RATIFICA­ nor even relevant to the many other far more TION OF ADMINISTRATION) BILL important issues facing Queenslanders and all other Australians today. Take, for example, INITIATION Casual Senate Vacancies. This is a false question because it is based on a false justi­ Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister fication. The Queensland Government's action for Local Government and Main Roads): I in appointing Senator Albert Patrick Field move- to replace Labor Senator Milliner is cited as "That the House will, at its present one of the reasons. The Queensland Parlia­ sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of ment replaced a La:bor man with a Labor the Whole to consider introducing a Bill man and there was never any thought other­ to validate, approve, ratify and make law­ wise such as appointing an Independent. The ful certain acts, matters and things done difference in the Parliament was over Labor's by the Council of the Shire of Albert in refusal to supply a panel of names as it had the purported exercise of powers conferred demanded in previous cases such as the elec­ on that council by the Albert Shire Council tion of Senator Neville Banner and the Budget Adjustment Act 1976 and for o1:her choice of a Speaker. Labor then denied us purposes." a panel of names. Motion agreed to. When Senator Field was appointed, he was a financial member of the Australian Labor Party and the Queensland President RAILWAYS LAND ACQUISITION BILL of the Furnishing Trades Union. He was one of several A.L.P. members willing to THIRD READING stand as a protest against the undemocratic Bill, on motion of Mr. Hooper, read a and unconstitutional actions of their own third time. party in the Gair affair and the appointment of Senator Murphy to the High Court. Senator Field was expelled by the A.L.P., REFERENDUM ON CHANGES TO not by the Government. COMMONWEALTH CONSTITUTION The inclusion of a direction that a senator Hon. J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah must be appointed from the same party -Premier) (12.19 p.m.), by leave, without writes political parties into the Constitution notice: I move- and thus reduces its impartiality. It also strips the Queensland Parliament of its power "That the Legislative Assembly of to decide who would best represent the wishes Queensland in Parliament assembled, being of the Queensland people rather than a par­ of the opinion that proposals for changes ticular political party. We say to the people in the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Queensland that they should give a firm of Australia to be submitted to referendums no to all the referendum issues placed before of the electors of the State of Queensland, them. pursuant to the Constitution Alteration (Simultaneous Elections) Act 1977, and the I would now like to deal with two of the Constitution Alteration (Senate Casual referendum proposals in more detail. Vacancies) Act 1977, would have the effects of- My Government proposes this resolution only after deep and serious consideration of 1. impairing the capacity of the Senate the constitutional implications of the pro­ to act, as the Constitution intended, as a posed referendums, and it does so because it States' House; feels that its duty is to take a stand upon 2. transferring essential functions in constitutional principle, whatever be the relation to elections to the Senate, or the immediate advantages to be gained from the filling of casual vacancies in the Senate, proposed constitutional changes. Let me from this Parliament to the Parliament briefly give the House the Government's of the Commonwealth; reasons. Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2851

I refer first to the Constitution Alteration character as a States' House. My Govern­ (Simultaneous Elections) referendum. The ment's clear duty, as a State Government, is present constitutional position is that the to uphold that character. Senate, under section 7 of the Constitution, The change goes even further than that. is to be composed of senators for each State. At present section 9 of the Constitution pro­ The Governor of the State causes writs to be vides that this Parliament may make laws issued for elections of senators for the State. Such senators are elected for six years, but for determining the times and places of elec­ after a dissolution of the Senate, half of tions for the senators for the State. The them serve only for three years. The Senate changes sought include giving that power to cannot be dissolved except when there is a the Commonwealth Parliament. That not double dissolution of both Houses under the only deprives this Parliament of its consti­ strict conditions laid down by section 57 of tutional powers, but it underlines the fact that the Constitution. That means that the the Senate would cease to be a States' House. senators' terms of office are independent of Indeed, it is significant that the changed sec­ the House of Representatives. tion omits the words "for the State" after the word "senators". If this change is brought The change sought by the referendum is about, the High Court would be justified in to bring Senate elections into line with House saying that the Senate was no longer a States' of Representative elections by providing for House, although only recently the High half of the senators after a dissolution of the Senate to retire at the next House of Court emphasised the role of the Senate as a Representatives election, and the other half States' House. at the House of Representatives election That change must eventually undermine the after that. federal system of Australian Government. If there were House of Representatives Furthermore, the proposed change would in­ elections every three years, that would mean terfere fundamentally with the relationship that half of the senators would retire after between the Governor of the State and his three years, and the other half after six years, Ministers. At present the Governor is advised and the first half again after nine years. But by his State Ministers. The proposed change if there are House of Representatives elec­ would now say that the Governor "may" tions more frequently than that, the change cause writs to be issued for elections of sena­ in the composition of the Senate would be tors for the State, but then goes on to say also that more frequent. If there were two that the writs "shall" be issued within 14 general elections in one year that would days from the date on which the places to mean the replacement of the whole Senate in be filled become vacant. one year, and not in six as is now the case. That is, of course, a direction to the Gover­ The question is whether Australian Gov­ nor-to our State Governor-and to imple­ ernment is likely, for the long-term future, ment that direction the new powers of the to be so stable that general elections will in Commonwealth Parliament to make laws for fact take place only at three-yearly intervals. determining the times and places of elections He would be a very rash prophet who so of senators would inevitably mean Common­ predicted. Supposing that there was, as has wealth legislation requiring action by the been the case, a situation where the Senate State Governor. Any step towards making was controlled by the Opposition, the temp­ the State Governor answerable to the Com­ tation for the Government of the day to over­ monwealth instead of to the advice of his come that disability by calling one or even State Ministers is wrong in constitutional two general elections could well prove irre­ principle and fraught in the long run with sistible. dangers to the independence of action of the Section 5 of the Constitution provides for State Government. The keystone of the the dissolution of the House of Representa­ federal system is the divisibility of the Crown, tives by the Governor-General without any which is only maintained so long as the conditions, and there would be many who Governor-General is advised only by Com­ would argue, as Mr. Whitlam has done, that monwealth Ministers and the State Governor the Governor-General is obliged by constitu­ only by State Ministers. tional convention to act on the advice of his I now turn to the referendum proposal Prime Minister. Therefore, it is realistic to relating to Senate casual vacancies, to which suppose that the attempt would be made by I made brief reference earlier. The present Governments of the day to alter the political situation is that these are filled by this Par­ complexion of the Senate by the expedient of liament. That emphasises the States' House having the House of Representatives dis­ character of the Senate, by giving this Par­ solved and having general elections at short liament the power of choice. It is to be intervals. expected that this Parliament would normally If that occurred it would be unnecessary choose a person of the same political party to dissolve the Senate in the event of dead­ as the previous occupant of the vacant place lock, and so section 57 of the Constitution in the Senate, but it seems to my Govern­ could be circumvented. That seems to my ment to be wrong that this Parliament should Government to be completely wrong in prin­ henceforth be directed, as the proposed ciple, but it is especially wrong because change would have it, to appoint only a per­ making the Senate a political reflection of the son of the same political party as the previous House of Representatives would destroy its occupant. 2852 Referendum on Changes to (5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution

The person being replaced may be an That is why my Government feels obliged Independent or a member of a minority party. in conscience to recommend to the electors It would create great difficulties-and this of the State that they vote no in these is important-if the political party of the referendums. previous occupant refused to allow any of As Premier, I felt it my duty to sum up its membership to be nominated by this Par­ in this way on these vital issues and to seek liament at all (for certain political reasons it to give a lead to all Queenslanders to vote could do it) or except upon conditions (and no on these issues. this is why we do not want it written into the Constitution) or when the views of the It will be very interesting to see how the person nominated by his party were against Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues those of this House or were subversive of vote and whether they are prepared to stand the Constitution. For example, the Labor up and vote for Queensland or whether they Party might even nominate a Communist. will back down and continue their allegiance That is within the realms of possibility. to Canberra. It will be very interesting indeed to see where their loyalties lie and to which A Government Member: Then we would section of the community they belong. have one for ever. Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Deputy Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: We would have Premier and Treasurer) (12.34 p.m.): I have a Communist there for ever. very much pleasure in seconding the motion Mr. Burns interjected. moved by the Premier. The parliamentary Liberal Party fully supports the resolution Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: If the Labor which has been proposed by the Honourable Party nominated one and the Government the Premier. was silly enough to agree to it, that would We do so for a number of reasons. Firstly, happen. there is no public demand for, or real interest Furthermore, the change would now write in, the holding of referendums at the present into the Constitution the power of the time. It is a costly, unnecessary move which hierarchies of political parties to make the will only anger the Australian people. It decision, for it is they who would nominate won't solve the problems facing Australia the person to be "chosen"-I advisedly put today. Secondly, we are fundamentally the word in inverted commas-by this Parlia­ opposed to a number of the referendum ment. It is wrong in constitutional principle proposals, particularly the two referred to that people not responsible to the electorate in the resolution proposed by the Premier. should have the power in practice which the Constitution intended should be vested in this Our attitude on these questions is con­ Parliament because it is composed of people sistent. We opposed the simultaneous elec­ who are, as we are, responsible to the elec­ tions and the votes for Territories proposals torate. My Government's concern is that the when they were submitted to the people by proposed change could open the door to the Whitlam Government in May 1974. collusion and pressurisation not consistent Nothing has happened since then to justify with the representational character of Par­ any change in our attitude; nor is there any liament. It is important that this Parliament reason why the people should change their retain the discretion reposed in it by the mind, either. Constitution. In 1974, these questions were rejected by The proposed change is also objectionable a majority of voters in a majority of States. in that it gives constitutional recognition to The Liberal and National Parties, particu­ political parties, which exist only because of larly in this State, led the national campaign past political practice and should not be part against these proposals. They were pro­ of the machinery of constitutional govern­ moted then, as they are once again, by ment. the socialist party, and by the nation's number one centralis!, Mr. Whitlam. My Government's concern is only with the interests of Queensland, and its decision to On the last occasion we argued that the oppose the referendums is motivated only proposals would undermine the role of the by that interest. Senate as an independent House, and as the guardian of the rights of the States. The My Government finds it not without sig­ A.L.P. argued that the powers of the Senate nificance that Mr. Whitlam is urging all ought to be reduced, and they argue the Labor Party supporters to vote affirmatively same again this year. in these referendums, because the proposed changes are important to his party. He has What distresses me is that people in my made that quite clear again recently. Of own party, and in the National Party in course, they are important to the Labor Canberra, are now proposing and promoting Party because they would be further mile­ the very referendum questions which they stones on the road to the dismantling of the helped to defeat in 1974, and which they federal system of government, to the emascu­ argued so strongly and successfully against. lation of the Senate, and to the eventual If the proposals were dangerous and wrong triumph of a one-party personality-cult style in 1974, then they are just as dangerous of government in Australia. and just as wrong in 1977. Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2853

Let me deal separately with each of the capacity of the Senate to act as it now questions that are the subject of this motion. does. It would be the first step towards There can be no doubt that the principal placing all power in the hands of the referendum question is the one relating to House of Representatives and therefore in simultaneous elections for the Senate and the hands of the Prime Minister for the the House of Representatives. It is the main time being. It would destroy the Parlia­ question, and it also happens to be the most ment as we have known the Parliament dangerous question as far as the States, the since 1900 ... he (the Prime Minister} Senate and the Constitution are concerned. wants a rubber stamp, a lame duck and a tame dog. In fact, he just wants to get If this question is carried, then it will be his own way." possible for any Federal Government to turn the Senate into a virtual mirror of the House Senator Withers is now one of the principal of Representatives. The traditional inde­ proponents of the "Yes" case, on the very pendence of the Senate will be lost for all same question! time. This question is being proposed on the The irrefutable fact remains that this grounds that it will mean fewer Federal proposal will take away an independence elections. That is a very misleading claim which the Constitution guaranteed the Sen­ to make, and it is one which will be exposed ate, and which has served Australia well. If in the referendum campaign. If the Federal that happens, the people of the less-populated Government wanted to hold the next half­ States will be seriously disadvantaged; and Senate eleotion at the same time as the next the Senate will become the mere mirror­ House of Representatives election, it could reflection of the House of Representatives do so without a referendum, which would and the virtual political plaything of the fundamentally and dangerously alter the Government of the day. relationship between the two Houses, and the special position which the Senate has in It is no wonder that the Federal Opposi­ the Constitution and the federal system. tion Leader, and the various State branches of the A.L.P. are supporting this proposal However, to gain a short-term political with the same enthusiasm that they did in advantage, the Federal Government has 197 4. It suits their long-term political decided to support a proposal which can only advantage because it will weaken the Senate be to the long-term advantage of the people and the position of the less-populated States who want to destroy the Senate and unuer­ which are just as strongly opposed to cen­ mine the constitutional monarchy in Aus­ tralism today as they have ever been. tralia-the leaders and members of the A.L.P. When the Constitution was being If the Opposition does not accept my drafted by the founding fathers, the very word for that, let me briefly quote Senator provision which is proposed to be changed John Button, a shadow Minister in the was included as one of the surest guarantees A.L.P. Opposition in Canberra. On 22 Feb­ of the independence of the Senate in the ruary this year, speaking on the Bill which Federal parliamentary system-an independ­ has led to this referendum, Senator Button ence which enabled the Senate to thwart the said- illegal activities of the Whiilam socialist Government in 1975. " Of course, the real importance and significance of this proposal from our point The proposal will have two effects, both of view in the Opposition is that it does of which concern the States and all who want what many of its critics say it will do. It to preserve the federal system. Firstly, it limits the significance and influence of the will weaken the independence of the Senate, Senate . . . we do have a very strong and reduce its ability to protect the interests view that the powers of the Senate should of the less populated States of Australia and be delimited at every opportunity. These their citizens. Secondly, it will radically are the basic reasons why we will be sup­ alter the method of election of senators in porting the legislation. In saying that we a way that would make State Governors are being consistent with everything we answerable to the Commonwealth on these have said before." matters and not to the State Governments or State Parliaments for which they have Senator Button "let the cat out of the bag", responsibility. by giving the real reason why his party is supporting this referendum so enthusiastically. On the first point, there is no better argu­ The fact that the A.L.P. is supporting it so ment against this referendum than that keenly ought to disturb every Queenslander which Senator Withers, the leader of the and, indeed, every Australian who wants to Government in the Senate, made in June maintain the independence and status of the 1975, less than two years ago. Referring Senate, and the rights of the people who live to this referendum when it was proposed by in the smaller States. the Whitlam Government, Senator Withers said- If this proposal is carried, any future " ... if the referendum which the legis­ Labor Government in Canberra would be lation proposes were passed by some freak able to introduce centralism, and socialism, mischance, it would effectively destroy the much more easily than it could under the 2854 Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution present Constitution. This referendum must but it was agreed that it should be accepted be defeated for the sake of the federal sys­ as a principle. It could not possibly be tem, and the smaller States of the federation. written into the Constitution, because it is full The independent and responsible role of the of loop-holes and has other shortcomings. If Senate must be enhanced, not destroyed. The the referendum is to be an expression of the Constitution must remain the great bulwark views of the Constitution Convention, then it against centralism, not the means by which it must be changed. If it is not changed, then can be achieved. it must be defeated. As part of the proposal, the constitutional This referendum is a dangerous subversion role which this Parliament has in the calling of the role of State Parliaments and their of Senate elections will be destroyed. The relationship with the Senate. It gives to constitutional powers this House possesses political parties powers which are undesirable under section 9 of the Constitution would be and unnecessary. In its present form, it is changed, and the role of the Senate as the a blank cheque arrangement which must be States' house destroyed. This referendum, rejected by the people of Queensland on 21 disguised as a means of having fewer elec­ May. tions, is in reality a dangerous threat to the Mr. Acting Speaker, our opposition to federal system of government, the inde­ these referendum questions is based upon our pendence of the Senate, and the position of commitment to the federal system of govern­ the less-populated States. As the guardian ment, and our very firm belief in the role of of the liberty and rights of the people of the Senate as the guardian of the interests Queensland, the Parliament of Queensland and rights of the less-populated parts of Aus­ must today oppose this referendum with all tralia. In 1974 we sought, and received, a the determination at our command. mandate to fight centralism and to stand up The second proposal, relating to the filling for the rights of Queensland and its people. of casual vacancies in the Senate, not only By opposing these referendum questions we seeks to put party politics into the Constitu­ are fulfilling our responsibility to the people tion for the first time; it also seeks to of Queensland. dictate to this Parliament in an unacceptable way. What this referendum does is give If the Opposition is genuine in its concern political parties the right to dictate to State about the rights of Queensland and its citi­ Parliaments who should or should not zens, then it will support this motion. The be appointed to fill casual Senate vacancies. Leader of the Opposition has been threatening People who are not even elected by the for more than two years to stand up for people will be dictating to this Parliament. Queensland. It is time he demonstrated at This can only reduce even further the role least a semblance of sincerity-and he can of the Senate as the States' House, and sub­ do so by supporting this motion. If he does ordinates the role of State Parliaments as not, then he will be seen by the people of well. Queensland to be shackled to the same anti­ Queensland, pro-centralist policies being pur­ The question which will be submitted to sued by his party in Canberra. He should the people is not the same as that approved also remember the electoral consequences of by the Constitution Convention last year. a sell-out on Queensland's interests; and if An amendment moved by the Premier of he cannot remember, then he should ask the West Australia, Sir Charles Court, provided 22 former colleagues who lost their seats at that the States would only be required to fol­ the last State election. low the rule when a casual vacancy arose out of death or resignation caused by bona fide There is no doubt where we stand on these illness; it would not apply when one party important matters-on the side of Queensland was attempting to manipulate the Senate, and its citizens. That is why we are urging such as in the infamous Gair affair three the people of Queensland to vote no on 21 years ago. May, and why I am pleased, on behalf of Indeed, the proposals in the Bill are such my party, to second and support the motion that it would be possible for a State, by that the Premier has put before the House. collusion with a political party, to have no Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the senators at all. Sir Charles Court's amendment Opposition) (12.49 p.m.): I cannot understand was carried by the convention, with the sup­ the fear of the Liberal and National Parties port ?f the Queensland Government repre­ in this Parliament of this proposal from the sentatives, and the following Federal Minis­ Government of their own unqualified choice ters: Senator Withers, Mr. Sinclair, Mr. in Canberra. I remember Mr. Knox and Mr. Ellicott, Senator Durack and Senator Webster. Bjelke-Petersen standing in this Parliament It was opposed by the A.L.P., the only party all through 1974 and 1975, ranting and which has sought to abuse the system. raving, and telling us we must put Mr. Despite the clear expression of the con­ Fraser in Canberra, that Mr. Fraser was the vention, the proposal to go to the people man who was going to save this State from is a new idea. It wants to make the rule a the centralists in Canberra. Today it has rigid provision in the Constitution, and it been necessary for the Premier to move a does not exclude vacancies created for party­ special motion in this Parliament to save political reasons. It was agreed at the Con­ Queensland from the centralists in Canberra stitution Convention that it was not possible that Knox and Bjelke-Petersen put there and to write this provision into the Constitution, that every member on the Government side, Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2855 now united in opposition to them, supported Mr. Knox: If you are defeated in the and went throughout the State saying should division will you resign? be there. Mr. BURNS: No, I won't. But I will tell I know the reason for this resolution. It is the Deputy Premier what I will do. I because the Liberal Party and National Party will go out to the people and debate these in Queensland are so divided, so bitter at each questions with him wherever he likes. Today other, and generating so much hatred one of he said he was standing up to defend Queens­ the other. Mr. Knox is going to fight Mr. land. How many young people will remain Hinze-but only when Mr. Hinze is down in jobs tomorrow as a result of his actions the road, not face to face across the table. in this Parliament over the past three months? He is going to fight Mr. Fraser-but only How many new houses will be built and how when Mr. Fraser is in Canberra, not when many new roads will be paved as the result he is here. Mr. Bjelke-Petersen was going to of his activities in this Chamber? This little fight Mr. Doug Anthony. When Mr. Doug sham motion will do nothing whatever for Anthony came here, Mr. Bjelke-Petersen toed the people of Queensland. All it is doing the line. He said, "We will do as we are is allowing the Premier and the Deputy told." The next day, however, after Mr. Premier to get together and to appear to Anthony went home, Mr. Bjelke-Petersen be united for once over the past six weeks. decided that once again he would adopt a different attitude. Let him deny it. I saw Labor defends the State rights of Queens­ him on T.V. saying just that. He can't deny land. We see nothing sinister in the retire­ it. Or, I suppose he can; most of the stories ment of High Court judges at 70 years of emanating from the Government side are age; we see nothing sinister in saving public untrue. money by holding House of Representatives and Senate elections together; we see noth­ Let me go a bit further in dealing with ing sinister in allowing the taxpayers of Can­ Mr. Bjelke-Petersen and some other Govern­ berra and the Northern Territory the same ment members. constitutional say as their fellow Australians; we see nothing sinister in filling a casual Mr. Lamont interjected. Senate vacancy caused by death. retirement or resignation with someone <>f the same Mr. BURNS: The member for South Bris­ political party. bane is interjecting. He was not even in the Chamber this morning to hear the Minis­ In Queensland the members on the Gov­ ter for Education and Cultural Activities ernment side of the House are divided. give him one of the greatest verbal thrash­ Unlike them, we are united and we see ings any member has been given. He was nothing sinister in those four proposals. The given that, on the Minister's statement, for Liberal Party organisation is divided from not leaking the truth to the newspapers. the parliamentary wing. The Liberal Party What unity there is on the Government organisation is split asunder in its neutrality, side! The reason for this motion is that or whatever it is termed. members of the Government parties can­ not agree on anything. We have a Premier who will not cam­ paign one way or the other. Last week Mr. Bjelke-Petersen: Would you agree he said he was sitting on the fence. Today with the Senate proposals? he declared himself. The National Party Management Committee is in favour and the Mr. BURNS: In a moment I will show Liberal-National Party State parliamentarians what I am going to do. The Opposition are against. That is the unity that we see on will be voting against this motion and will the Government side! On this issue we be calling for a division to see whether see on the other side a disunited rabble. Government members have any courage or This stunt-this sham-is designed to attempt will do as the Premier tells them. to paper up the cracks. On 18 May 1974, when two of the pre­ The A.L.P. is the only party that is sent questions went to a referendum, Labor united and consistent on the referendum pro­ supported them. At least we are consistent. posals. We condemn the timing, and we In 1974 we supported those two questions. recognise Malcolm Fraser's present con­ stitutional haste as being motivated more by Mr. Knox: So do we. the proximity of an embarrassing half-Senate election than by a genuine desire for reform. Mr. BURNS: I am not too sure about the That is the motive behind this referendum Deputy Premier. He might have to toe campaign. the line. Since his appointment to the position of Deputy Premier he has not shown The fact remains that these questions have any guts or any backbone. He has not been endorsed by all the major political shown much courage at all in his life. parties in the National Parliament and are When Yvonne McComb snaps her fingers now before Australians for decision on 21 he will jump through the hoop. May. I will say this: Labor will, as in the past, abide by the verdict of the people Mr. Knox: Can I ask you a question? at the ballot-box. We won't try to per­ vert it as the Government parties in this Mr. BURNS: Yes. Parliament did in the Colston affair in 1975. 2856 Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution

I intend to deal briefly with the four pro­ he broke the nexus in 1963, when it was posals because the Premier, in his speech, politically advantageous for him to do so, failed to deal with of them. As the we should continue it forever more. States neither nor replace High Court judges, sovereign rights are not Liberal and National Party members pre­ impaired by the proposed retirement at 70 tend concern about public spending. The years of age. This Government enforces a Premier spoke about the cost of the 65-year retiring limit on judges and has in referendum but the Federal Government fact made it easier for them to stand down warns that unless this referendum question at 60 years of age. is passed Australia faces four elections in the next four years costing at least $24,000,000. A Government Member: No. Those are the words of Fraser and Doug Anthony-the leaders that the Queensland Mr. BURNS: Yes it did. It made it easier for them to stand down at 60. Government urged the people to vote for. If we can save $24,000,000, could it not We ask the worker to retire at be used to relieve unemployment and provide 65 years of age. workers in the housing, schools and many other facilities that Public Service ask to stay on a little we cannot finance. It should be only natural in many instances the Government tells that members of the Liberal and National that they must retire. But somehow or other Parties who are so concerned about cuts the Government is now saying that it objects should be trying to save to High Court judges being told that they Malcolm Fraser, the must retire at 70 of age. Why, I of their choice, and Doug is there towards a lenient Anthony want to save. of principles to High judges. This does not alter the struc- ture or of either the Lower House I should have imagined that the Premier, or the Senate. All it achieves is less frequent after his unsuccessful and expensive advent­ elections at reduced cost, yet the so-called ures in the High Court, would have promoted economic conservationists of the Liberal and the earliest possible retirement of the present National Parties are opposed to it. bench instead of prolonging its term. I make the point to the Premier that Mr. The third proposal relates to ·a vote for Justice Murphy must certainly be gratified the ·electors of the Australian Capital Ter­ to learn, after this Government's criticism of ritory and

Mr. BURNS: Before the luncheon recess Government is saying that they should not l was talking about the four points in the be allowed to vote. It is opposing the right referendum and making the point on behalf of Australians to have a vote in a determin­ of the Labor Party that we see nothing ation on their own future. sinister in High Court judges retiring at 70, The fourth point is the replacement of nothing sinister in saving public money by casual Senate vacancies with appointments holding House of Representatives and Senate from the same political party. In fact, I am elections together, nothing sinister in allowing surprised that the people of this Parliament the taxpayers of Canberra and the Northern should even raise it. They should hang Territory the same constitutional say as their heads in shame after rthe way they have their fellow Australians, and nothing sinis­ voted in the past on this issue. I believe ter in filling a casual Senate vacancy caused that this item comes before the Australian by death, retirement or resignation with the people because of the shame of the Queens­ choice of the same political party. land Parliament in the 1975 episode. I made the point that, as the first refer­ From 1949 (when proportional representa­ endum proposal relates to retiring High Court tion began) until 1975 this principle was judges at 70 and as the States neither scrupulously observed with the conventional appoint nor replace High Court judges, their consent of all States. Today Sir Robert sovereign rights are not impaired. As to Menzies, the founder of the Libeml Party, the second one, on simultaneous elections for deems it desirable. I don't always agree the House of Representatives and the Senate with Sir Robert-in fact, 1 very rarely agree -with one exception this electoral nexus with him-but on this point I must agree had applied without complaint from Feder­ with him. ation until 1963. In faot, our first referen­ This segment becomes necessary only dum on 12 December 1906, canied by all because of the despicable manner in which States, was designed for just ·that purpose. the Premier and other Government members So the proposal does not alter the structural in 1975 mutilated the parliamentary decency functions of either the Lower House or the and integrity of this nation following the Senate. death of Senator Bert Milliner. Queensland­ Before lunch I was making the point, on ers are asked to fill a constitutional loop­ the proposal of a vote in referendums for hole which our Federation founders believed electors of the Australian Capital Territory no State leader would be dishonourable and the Northern Territory, that Queensland­ enough to exploit. This amendment is ers transferred to Canberra or the Northern designed to ensure that undemocratic events Territory should not suddenly lose their say of that time involving the Premier and his on changes to the Australian Constitution. 1 misfit Patrick Field can never occur again. believe that it is completely illogical for the The mercenary political actions of the maj­ Queensland Parliament to say that Queens­ ority of this Government are responsible for landers who are working in the Public the added cost inflicted on Australians by Service and are transferred to Canberra this proposal. ' A referendum on it would should not be allowed a vote in an Australian not be necessary if this Government had referendum. It is just not reasonable. It is done the decent, honest thing in 1975. just not common sense. We should not be Labor will protect the rights of the treating our fellow Queenslanders in that Queensland people. We will save them the way. expense of unnecessary elections and we will Mr. Jones: That is what the Premier is protect their voting rights in cases of sudden asking us to do. death or unfortunate circumstances against the undemocratic attempts of unprincipled Mr. BURNS: Yes. ·The Premier is asking opportunist Premiers such as the one we the people of Queensland to say that people have here in Queen&land. sent to these great Public Service .towns­ The four proposals are, I submit, relatively Darwin with its Air Force and Navy estab­ straightforward. One eliminates the prospect lishments is mainly a serviceman's town but of a repetition of the type of constitutional it has many general Public Servants, too, crime committed in this Parliament just under just as Canberra has-Australians who are two years ago. The Premier said before transferred out of the States to work in lunch that political parties should not be those areas should be refused a vote in ref­ recognised in the Constitution. Let me read erendums that will affect their future. a letter from Mr. Johannes Bjelke-Petersen, Mr. Moore: Of course they should. Premier of Queensland, written on 31 May 1971. He wrote to Mr. Houston as Mr. BURNS: The honourable member for follows:- Windsor has said, "Of course they should." "His Excellency the Governor was form­ Mr. Moore: Make them States. Take that ally advised by His Excellency the interjection, too. Governor•General on 25th May, 1971, that, on 24th May, 1971, Senator the Honour­ Mr. BURNS: That is not the argument able Dame Annabelle Jane Mary Rankin, in the referendum. The argument in the D.B.E., a Senator for the State of Queens­ referendum is that these Australians should land, resigned her place in the Senate, in be entitled to vote in referendums. The accordance with the provisions of Section 2858 Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution

19 of the Constitution of the Common­ against National Party and Premier against wealth of Australia, and that place there­ Deputy Premier. Those divisions exist and upon became vacant. Dame Annabelle today the Premier has produced this motion Rankin's term of service had been due to to paper up the cracks. expire on 30th June, 1974." I submit that the four proposals are rela­ That would have been three years later. tively straightforward. One eliminates the The letter continues- prospect of a repetition of the type of con­ "As you know, the accepted practice stitutional crime committed in this Parliament when a casual vacancy of this nature occurs just under two years ago. Another provides is for the new Senator to be of the same for a tolerant retiring limit of 70 years for political party as his predecessor and I High Court judges. The third ensures public have asked the Queensland Division of the saving by restoring the elections nexus for Liberal Party of Australia. . ." the House of Representatives and the Senate Not the Leader of the Opposition and not that has existed for most of our years since the Leader of the Liberal Party, but the federation. organisation outside of this House. He recog­ Not surprisingly, according to newspaper nised political parties in those days. The reports, today's motion comes from the letter continues- reactionary reject from Toowong. I know he ". , . to advise me, as quickly as pos­ will be the next speaker and I could not sit sible, of the name of the person they down without giving him some turps. He wish to nominate on this particular occa­ gives me some every time he stands up. In sion." fact, I could outline what he will say. He On those occasions the Premier believed will hold his piece of paper in his hand and that a political party should have the right say, "Again the Leader of the Opposition to nominate and should nominate one person. gave forth with his usual diatribe of tripe about the Government." He says that every In 1975 he wrote to me following the time. It has reached the stage that someone death of Senator Bertie Milliner. Remember presses button A, opens Charlie's mouth and it was his death that resulted in the writing away he goes. There is one thing that can of this letter to me whereas, in the other be said about Charlie Porter. He is no case, it was the resignation of Dame stranger to "No" votes. He has earned one Annabelle Rankin, who accepted a job for from every Liberal leader since his election the girls and went to New Zealand. That is every time he tries to enter Cabinet. It is no different from Senator Murphy's going to no wonder that on this occasion he advocatet5 the High Court. The same sort of stunt was that the people vote "No, no, no, no," being pulled by the Liberal and National Parties and was organised and accepted Mr. Casey: The only difference these days by the National-Liberal Government in this is that Joh, rather than the Liberal Party State. manipulates him. ' In 1975 the Premier wrote to me as fol­ Mr. BURNS: It is true to say that the lows:- Deputy Premier and others can no longer "To this end therefore, I should appre­ control the numbers in their ranks. If ever ciate your advising me as soon as pos­ the Liberals have enough backbone to take on sible the names of three persons whom Joh, Mr. Porter and some of the others will your P~,rty would be prepared to nomin­ go and join tlre National Party. That i~ ate... well known and accepted in the political He demanded a choice, but he demanded no sphere today. I suppose it is his right to choice when Senator Banner was elected. make a decision. That is probably why he Mr. Moore: Of course they did. has _to say that we should not allow political parties to have a right. Mr. BURNS: No they didn't. The Premier accepted the denials in this Parliament and Mr. Lee: You'll be sorry. it was proven in this Parliament that no choice was demanded by the Opposition in Mr. BURNS: I know I'll be sorry but 1971. But a choice is demanded by the I'm used to Charlie. He does not bite any Government when it plays the foul politics more. The old dog has lost his kick. He has which are part and parcel of the philosophies a lot of bark but not too much bite. of the Liberal and National Parties in this As for the Premier and his docile deputy, State. There is little or no decency in the Gov­ need I do more than refer to Senator Missen ernment ranks on these particular issues. They the Liberal representative from Victoria i~ will manipulate the Parliament just as they the Senate for which they suddenly pretend are doing with this motion today. The such concern! Yesterday the Liberal Senator motion means nothing at all. Something like Missen made a special trip to this State to 50,000 people are out of work and people warn Queenslanders of the insincerity of both are crying out for homes, housing and other the Premier and the Liberal Leader, and also assistance from this Government and on the the honourable member for Toowong, who day before the Parliament is to go into was at the Constitution Convention in Hobart recess the Government comes forward with ~ast year. I remind the House again, as I a stunt motion purporting to show in some mtend to remind my fellow Queenslanders at way that its ranks are not divided-Liberal every opportunity I get between now and 21 against National Party and National Party May, that it was this Parliament, the people Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2859 who will carry this motion today, that wanted I go further and say that manipulation of Malcolm Fraser in power in Canberra. Their parliamentary processes to return to Canberra argument today is not with the Labor Opposi­ a senator not of the same party as the late tion or Gough Whitlam; it is against Malcolm Senator Milliner was not in the interests of Fraser, the man they wanted in control in people who voted for the late senator at the Canberra. He is the Canberra socialist and previous election. centralist that they argued against previously. The fourth proposal is to allow taxpayers Am I being told now that Whitlam manipu­ of the Australian Capital Territory and the lates Fraser; that Whitlam pulls the strings Northern Territory the same constitutional and Fraser does as he is told? I do not think rights enjoyed by their fellow Australians. honourable members opposite will be saying Let those who argue that they should not that at the time of the next election, so they have such similar rights say so. Let them should not be foolish enough to say it now. stand up and be counted in the election The point is that this Government stumped campaign. As Australians look for political the State using in support of Fraser's cam­ unity, these issues are being confused by paign money allocated for more beneficial the faction-fighting, opportunism, and mis­ purposes for Queensland workers. Now Gov­ representation of sections of the coalition. As ernment members want to dump Fraser and I see it, Labor remains consistent. We stand run away from him because he will not do firm in our defence of State rights and the what they want. Senator Missen reminded the best interests of the Queensland electorate. people of Queensland yesterday, as I suppose We will be dividing the House on this issue Mr. Fraser will do during the coming cam­ and we will be doing exactly what we did in paign, of the insincerity of the Liberal and 1974. We will be asking the people of National parliamentarians in Queensland. I Australia to vote yes on the referendum say "parliamentarians" because the National proposals. Party executive has not decided to support the "No" case. The Liberals cannot make Mr. PORTER (Toowong) (2.29 p.m.): The up their minds. Wherever one goes in the Leader of the Opposition has spent so much Liberal and National Parties today, one finds time attacking me, and doing it in such division and schisms, with one set against the pleasant terms, that I feel I owe him my other. They cannot really make up their gratitude for a very substantial compliment. minds. If I have played any significant part in the Mr. Lee: Can I leave now to see children matter before the House today, I am very from my schools? proud to have it acknowledged. I want to say to the House, too, how splendid it was to Mr. BURNS: Yes, and will you remind hear the Premier move the motion and com­ them that you have not been doing the right mit himself to vigorous opposition to the thing for schools in Labor electorates? referendum proposals. That certainly gives the lie to the rumours that detractors of the Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! Premier have been spreading around that he Mr. BURNS: Well, the Minister asked me. intended to adopt a low profile in this matter. I think it can be well said that the "No" Mr. Gibbs interjected. campaign for Queensland has started here today and it will be a massively successful Mr. BURNS: The honourable member who campaign, as were previous campaigns of a now interjects organised and paid for busloads like nature. of unemployed to tour the State during the last election campaign in support of the election Mr. Hartwig interjected. of Mr. Fraser. He has done nothing about the Fraser Government from the day it was Mr. PORTER: The honourable member for returned, despite the fact that unemployment Callide refers to the Opposition's republican has since increased. The same women who attitude. That is typical of them and the worked in clothing factories and were then reason why they are such a sorry, dispirited, out of work are still unemployed. But now ragged little crew, and they are likely to be he does nothing. Those women were used fewer after the next election if they keep on as dupes by the Tories. in these terms. Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! The It is a very melancholy reflection on the honourable member will return to the motion nature of politics that three years ago this before the House. Parliament was considering a similar motion in very similar terms about proposed con­ Mr. BURNS: Very well, Mr. Acting stitutional changes. We were then seeking­ Speaker. and we successfully sought, as it turned out­ The four items of the referendum have no to check Mr. Whitlam's avowed socialist and dangers for my fellow Queenslanders. Re­ centralis! aims. Now we on this side of the tiring judges at 70 does not present any House find that we have to parry the cen­ danger. Having elections that will, in the tralis! threats of a Government which was words of Mr. Fraser, save $24,000,000 in the elected at the end of 197 5 by the most next four years also presents no danger to enormous landslide that Australian political to State. In fact, I would welcome the history has ever known. And that Govern­ spending of $24,000,000 on essential items. ment was elected to Canberra to do what? 2860 Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977) Commonwealth Constitution

Specifically, of course, it was elected by the be looked at very closely. There is no self­ people to turn back the Whitlam tide, to destructive mechanism in these proposals. sweep away all the centralis! initiatives and They are not going to blow themselves out to lead Australia back into an era of personal of the Constitution the moment our Govern­ incentives and individual liberties. ment loses office and the Labor Party gets into office in Canberra. They will be So it is a very distressing business for those there to be used; and use them Labor will, as of us on this side of the House to find that it did in 1972, when it gained office and used once again we have to meet this insatiable so much of the machinery that the Liberal­ hunger of Canberra's for power, and more National-Country Party Government pro­ distressing indeed to find our colleagues in vided when it was in the dying stages of the Federal sphere linked with Labor for office. So we have to recognise that any Labor purposes. It is always an unhappy requirements for short-term party loyalty occasion when one finds one has to stand with the notion that we change the Constitu­ up against one's colleagues, but there is no tion merely to protect our Federal colleagues option-no option at all-for tts when, as I has to be measured against the long-term say, they line up with the Labor Party in interests of this country and this country's order to promote Labor objectives. And when people. matters of very great principle are involved. principles that will deeply affect the lives of Now, I sit and wonder as to just how people in this country for many generations it came about that a Liberal-National Country to come, then there cannot be any question­ Party Government in Canberra, elected with ing that most of us on this side of the House such a tremendous mandate, should, 18 will see these principles as transcending nar­ months after that election, find itself push­ row party loyalties. Here, of course, we differ ing Labor ideas. And let us make no totally from the Opposition because they will mistake about it; these are Labor ideas, never ever, for any reason, put the country totally and wholly. Mr. Whitlam, addres­ before party-never ever! They showed that sing the A.L.P. State council in New South during the Whitlam regime; they are showing Wales less than a fortnight ago, had this it at the present time. They are always to say, talking about the two proposals for prepared to put their party's interests before simclltaneous elections and casual vacancies- the concerns of the nation, no matter what "If that had been the position in the those party interests may mean to the coun­ Constitution in 1972, we (the Labor Party) try and to the people. They are here as would have had not only a majority in delegates of their party, tied, trussed, directed the House of Representatives but in the and controlled-totally controlled-and their Senate as well . . . The coalition parties leaders have admitted that publicly from time would never have gained the numbers to time. Of course, we on this side of to block the Budget in 1975 if the replace­ politics are here, as it were, as trustees of ment safeguard had existed then." our parties, expected to adhere to basic prin­ So there is no question about what Mr. ciples-which we do-but within the para­ Whitlam believes these constitutional amend­ meters of those basic principles we are free ments are all about, and it is no wonder to make our own judgments, and we do so, he is all for them. They are for Labor's and that is why the people of Australia and long-term benefit, and short-term they are the people of Queensland consistently trust for the benefit of any Government that is us and distrust the Labor Party. That is the in Canberra and thinks that Canberra is secret of our success and the secret of the entitled to take a paramount position over Opposition's continuing miserable failures. the allegedly partner States. I ask myself whether there is any great The referendum next month is about con­ clamour for constitutional change. Please stitutional changes, and they will be perman­ do not let anybody quote to me what hap­ ent changes if they are made. Recently-! pened at the Constitution Convention in think it was yesterday-we had a visit from Hobart, which was a collection of party a Senator Missen, whom the Leader of the politicians-professionals, all of them, to Opposition parades to this House as though the backbone-plus a few local government he were a very significant person. This representatives who had been hypnotised by Senator Missen, for my money, is one of the having a golden carrot dangled before them. main urgers of these referendum proposals. For the main part, we were party politicians, He is what we call a small "1" type Liberal, committed to party lines, and so the debate and I do not see much difference between and the decisions went. The only variation small "1" type Liberal and small "1" type was when the Commonwealth sided with Labor. They meet in the middle: they merge; New South Wales and Victoria-and much they become indistinguishable; and they are more often with Victoria-to get decisions no damn good to either of us. So what we which would give more muscle to the big have to remember is that anything that is centres of population against the small centres done in terms of constitutional change will of population. That is how the whole con­ be there for all time, and this bland assur­ vention went, and the record will clearly ance that we get from some of our colleag­ show it. So please do not let anybody sug­ ues, that "Oh, we were against the proposals gest that there is a kind of Holy Writ when Whitlam put them because he was a about anything that came out of that Con­ dangerous man, but you can trust us" must stitution Convention. It was a farce, and Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2861

it was meant to be so. Indeed, immediately The proposal that we cannot love our own after it the Prime Minister said that he would State and at the same time feel proud to be not hold any more Constitutional Conven­ Australians is worse than nonsense. The tions, it was such a non-event. people who put forward this sort of thing are those who want to be dangerously He said then that there would certainly divisive. They have usually got their own be no referenda. I wonder what happened axes to grind and we should watch them to make him change his mind. Certainly very carefully. there is no public demand for these referenda -none at all. If anybody can point to any I say to the House: the very basis on irresistible clamour for constitutional change, which these referendum questions are being let him do so in the course of this debate. put-I include all of them; I am against I certainly see no signs of any of it. There the lot-is false, deceitful, dangerous and is no indication of a great public demand; dishonest. Nobody but those with an there is no evidence of a massive grounds­ ulterior purpose to serve-and this unhappily well of public feeling. In fact, to the con­ includes my colleagues in Canberra, who are trary, there is no evidence that people want pushing the proposals-could be promoting these constitutional changes. All the urging them. I think the electorate would do welf for them comes from politicians with vested to remember the old axiom that when pol­ interests-in the main, the Labor Party, with iticians of opposite parties get together, watch its usual retinue of media pundits and out! Winston Churchill put it very well academics. when he said that there is no-one more eloquent than the politician who is equating One must ask oneself: do compelling public good with private advantage. That is reasons exist for constitutional changes today? exactly what we are getting in these refer­ Is the Constitution in fact out of date? Is endum proposals. it, as so many people say, just a relic of the horse-and-buggy days, inadequate for The only one that really matters to the today's complex situation? Are sweeping Government in Canberra-the other three changes needed, which seem to be, in the are put in for what might be called pro­ main, just a matter of putting more and tective coloration-is simultaneous elections. more of the decision-making capacity in The Prime Minister hopes that that will Canberra? Is this required to permit Australia give him an extra six months before he needs to act as a nation? These and others are to face the people at all in any way next the emotive arguments used by the pro­ year. That, I suggest, is a very misguided ponents of constitutional change, and not attitude to adopt and a very chancy basis on one of them stands any close scrutiny, or which to suggest that constitutional changes is meant to stand close scrutiny. They are of this type should be made. the stuff of which demagoguery is made. They are not meant to be sensible state­ Mr. Moore: Also the Senate casual vac­ ments for national debate; they are meant ancy-you have to remember that. It is a to be the kind of purple prose that inflames little bit of sugar. passions and stampedes reason; that is all. Mr. PORTER: I think they are all pre­ The suggestion that Australia cannot grow posterous and dangerous. But I want to re­ to be a nation unless Canberra is exalted mind the people, because Australia needs and the States diminish is the most prepost­ reminding, that Australia has always shown erous idiocy. This nation fought two World a very healthy distrust for politicians of any Wars and handled an inflow of migration brand who go around urging constitutional equivalent to that of America in the sev­ change. Only five of 32 referendum attempts enties of the last century without missing have been accepted by the Australian people. a beat on the way to the great development Of those five, only two had any significance and great stabiJi.ty that we had before the at all, and that was not a great deal of sig­ Whitlam regime. It is absolute rubbish to nificance. We have to bear in mind that, claim that we were not a nation until this despite the electorate's consistent and nauseating Canberra-above-all doctrine determined opposition to constitutional appeared. Australia has been a great nation change, over the years there have been vast for many years. changes in the federal system, and vast alterations in the balance of power between Who among us who were lucky enough to the State Governments and the central Gov­ attend the Olympic Games in Melbourne in ernment. 1960, when we had our greatest sporting successes, did not feel his heart almost The fact of the matter is that there has bursting with pride as an Australian when been a tremendous shift of power from the our young people did so well on our behalf? States, where the Constitution put it, to And it did not require the present Canberra Canberra. We should all remember that mania to make us feel that way. none of this has come from the people; all of it has come from the legal experts The people should recognise it as the of the High Court. It is worth remembering greatest nonsense of all time to suggest that that there has not been one major con­ we cannot have a strong federal system and stitutional change in this country authorised at the same time be a great nation; that or sanctioned by the people of Australia we somehow have to diminish the federal -not one. Every change has come through system before we can acquire nationhood. High Court determinations. Thi~ has come 2862 Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution

about because we have a High Court that are to become States, let them become States. has become more and more obsessed with The more machinery that is provided to allow the centralis! bug, primarily because its Territories to remain in the twilight zone appointments are made by the central Gov­ with some of the rights of States (without ernment. Over the years its members have independence), the longer they will stay in gradually come to make the words of the that twilight zone. If anybody believes that Constitution mean precisely the opposite to the residents of a Territory are not affected what they say and what they clearly mean. by the central Government which controls the purse-strings, I can only say that he is Dr. Crawford: The High Court has been not thinking too clearly. Nobody can pos­ Murphy-ised. sibly go to Canberra and drive around there, looking at what has been done for the resi­ Mr. PORTER: An attempt has been dents, without believing that the pampered made to Murphy-ise the High Court, which people of that city would not have a certain is very regrettable. attitude towards anything that the central On that basis I do not give this package Government wanted. Human nature being of referendum proposals any real chance of what it is, it would be foolish to believe success. I remember saying a couple of otherwise. months before the Federal poll in Decem­ There is no doubt that the inclusion of ber 1975 that the Whitlam Government was the Territories' votes in referenda, in terms doomed, and I also remember Opposition of the total, will have an effect helpful to members jeering at that. I said that over the central Government and that is what the them hung a kind of putrescent fog of decay proposal is there for. Equally so, if they are and disillusion. Everybody but the Opposi­ to be counted now in terms of determining tion knew that that Government was the quota into which seats will be divided in doomed. Everybody but the Opposition and the various States-and anybody who knows our people who are pushing it know that this anything about electoral redistribution referendum attempt is likewise doomed. It (although I am afraid that not many do) will will be rejected massively-and rightly so! realise just how significant that proposition is-it means that the numbers into which It is suggested that some of the proposals seats will be divided in the various States merit some sort of support. We are asked, will have a very vast bearing on the political "After all, what is wrong with retiring judges climate of the seats so created. at 70?". I think a nation that has its arteries so hardened that it is prepared to l believe that this proposition, which is also put an arbitrary age guillotine on judges of trotted out as being quite bland and innocent, the High Court needs its head read. This is is far from being that. In the Territories' own an area of unique experience. I would expect interests, it should not be accepted. that a nation, realising the value of On the basis of the casual vacancy, the experience, wherever else it might put such a Leader of the Opposition made a great song limit, would not apply it to the High Court. and dance about our doing a shameful, im­ I remind the House that this is another moral thing in putting in Senator Field. Let deceitful question. At the moment the Con­ me say to this House that in the circum­ stitution clearly provides machinery for get­ ting rid of High Court judges. Section 72 (2) stances that existed at that time, Mr. details the machinery by which judges can be Whitlam was rushing pell-mell, headlong, removed on grounds of proved misbehaviour determined to push Australia, whether it or incapacity. If a judge is so old and doing wanted it or not, into a republican system. his job so badly that he should be removed, Mr. Whitlam had announced it. He was he can be removed. We do not need to put already talking about himself as "President this 70-year-old guillotine into the Constitu­ Whitlam". tion. I say to this House, and I think I said it on that occasion, that I would do anything I remind the House that when the Con­ stitution was written in 1901 the life expec­ at all that would check those foul aims. If tancy of the average man was 52 years. it had been left to me, I would not have Today, the age expectancy of the average bothered putting in an A.L.P. representative. male is 68 years. Without doubt, with I would have put in Bob Sparkes or Yvonne developments in medical science, life expec­ McComb, because Australia was in dire tancy will be extended further. To believe extremes then in a political sense, and the it is proper that a provision which was necessity was to ensure that Whitlam inserted to allow for older people to stay on couldn't get away with what he was plan­ the High Court bench, when the average life ning. There is no doubt whatever that by expectancy was 52, should be removed when our putting in other than the Opposition's life expectancy has extended almost two tame nominee, who might well not have been decades is utter nonsense, which only stupid suitable to this House, an election was people could believe in. We are foolish if we secured and that election resulted in the most look on this proposal as one with any merit disastrous defeat for that party that it has at all. ever known in all the time that this nation has existed. The proposal that people in the Territories should be permitted to vote has a very real Mr. Moore: The right of recall; that's what sting in its tail. For a start, if Territories it was. Referendum on Changes to (5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2863

.'\1r. PORTER: As the member for Wind­ never faced the electors and is the choice of sor says, it was literally the right of recall. some faceless, backroom boys who run a political party. I do not give a toss which For my part, a State Parliament, in exer­ political party it is, it is utterly wrong that cising its right under this section of the Con· that should be so. stitution to fill a casual vacancy, has not only a right but also a responsibility to act in No constitution in the Western world accordance with the situation that then carries that provision of the recognition of exists. Don't anybody quote to me this parties. Honourable gentlemen opposite who sickening nonsense about a so-called con­ are laughing to themselves because I am vention. I have dealt with that ad nauseam vehement about this want to do a little in the past Nobody has a better right to thinking and try to reflect on the long-term deal with it than I have, because I was significance of a constitution that enshrines running the Liberal Party at the time this so­ the role of present major political parties. called convention commenced. I know it It will be an inbuilt inhibiter against political doesn't exist. I know what it was. I know change because new parties will not be in the how it got credence. It was no more than a act. The major parties will be the beneficiaries squalid, sordid little arrangement between of this. parties not lo hurt each other in the clinches Although I belong to a major party I when they had the chance. Now to elevate certainly would fight to the death, as it it to the stature of a noble principle-a were--only in an allegorical sense-in order convention; and, moreover, a convention to protect the rights of minority groups to which theoretically carries more weight than take their place in the political sun. This is do the actual words of the Constitution a pernicious proposal. For the life of me I itself-is, of course, another piece of stupid cannot understand how people of my nonsense and J reject it out of hand. We political persuasion could possibly put this will see what people think about that non­ forward. It is anathema to everything that sense when they vote at the referendum. · we are supposed to believe in. I look at it, I make it quite plain that for my money a shake my head, wonder and think, "What on State Government, under the present terms earth has happened to the Liberal credo that of the Constitution, has a responsibility in was so well expressed in the past and so well filling a casual vacancy to ensure that it is understood by many people?" filled as the electors then would want it. The simultaneous election proposal was so There is no compact with electors from a well covered by the Premier and Deputy past election. I have never heard one elector Premier. The extent to which this cuts away in Australia seriously suggest that. Only the existing right of the States to treat with politicians suggest that-and these funny the Senate and to make sure that the Senate people in the media who have these trendy is a States' House as it has been over latter ideas about it. years, after many years of being in the doldrums, is deplorable. This is a very dread­ Let us remember, too, that under the con­ ful proposal indeed, and is another proposal stitutional change now proposed, which takes that I find completely incompatible with what away from the State Government the right our side of politics is supposed to be all to fill a casual vacancy, there will no longer about, because this will take away the States' be a casual vacancy. It will become a full­ right to treat with the Senate in so many term operation. Those of us who have been vital areas. around for a while will remember when a Labor Senator died-! think in 1961-even It is notable that a person reading the before he took his seat in the Senate, we Bills will see just how sinister many of these filled that casual vacancy with the past leader proposals are; much more so than simply of the Liberal Party in this House, and he reading the potted version of words which then went to the people at the next Federal will be the questions for the constitutional election and won the vacancy. The people referendum. The Bills show the various supported what we did-as they have done alterations to the sections of statutes for the on every occasion when we have done this, Constitution and a person reading them by the way. would realise just how deeply the knife cuts, how much flesh the operation will take away But the fact is that, under the proposed and how many organ transplants will be constitutional amendment, that so-called made. casual appointee would be there for a six­ year term. There will be no more "casual" The section of the Constitution on simul­ appointment about it. The right of this Par­ taneous elections at present provides- liament to make its decision-and if it makeli "The Parliament of a State may make the wrong decision it has to face the wrath laws for determining the times and places of the electorate, so that the ultimate power of elections of senators for the State." resides in the electorate's hands, where tt In order to make room for their main pro­ should always be-is going to be taken away posal they take the words, "of a State" out and we will have to accept what the hierarchy and the proposal says simply, "The Parlia­ of some political party decides we must ment may make laws". Later on we find out accept. We are going to put into the Senate, just who is the Parliament-the Parliament for a possible six years, somebody who has of the Commonwealth of course. They have 2864 Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution

completely excluded the State Governments be put to the people of Australia by a from their present constitutional roles in Liberal-National Country Party Government. regard to the Senate. These are dreadful They reek of centralism and the policy of proposals. It is quite horrible to see them the socialists. They have as their ultimate coming from my side of politics. objectives the abolition of the Senate as part of the Federal Government and also Perhaps I have spent more time than I the elimination of State Governments. should but there is one final point. Some people are taking comfort from Morgan I believe that the honourable member for Gallup polls which indicate a majority of Toowong has outlined adequately and com­ support in the various States for these pletely many of the reasons why the people referendum proposals. I say to those who of Queensland should vote no to the refer­ find this a sort of comfort, "Use it while you endum proposals. I should like to add that can because it will turn out to be a very this is a feeling held not only by the honour­ cold comfort." able member for Toowong and members of this House, at least on the Government side. I went to the trouble of taking the Morgan There was a meeting of my electorate council Gallup polls a month before the referendum last night and, after discussing this matter dates for both the prices and income referen­ for several hours, we came to the conclusion dum in 1973 and the four questions put in by an overwhelming majority that National 1974. It will be of interest to know that from Party supporters in my electorate should the time the polls were taken only four weeks definitely vote no and favour the adoption before-we are about six weeks away from of a "No" vote in this Parliament today. the referendum-the switch in voting on practically every question was over 50 per I number among my many friends in cent; the "Yes" vote usually went down by Townsville members of the Labor Party, with 20 per cent and the "No" vote went up by whom I speak frequently. I have discussed over 30 per cent. The results suggested by the referendum proposals with them and the Gallup polls were completely reversed almost without exception they feel that the when the actual votes were counted. That is referendum is a complete and unwise waste exactly what will happen on this occasion, of money, especially in the present state of too. I do not often make predictions on the economy. They, too, feel that they political mattel's, but I say now that these should vote no. The people of North Queens­ referendum proposals are dead and buried. land feel even more strongly about control Mr. Fraser would be wise to pull them out from Canberra than do the people of South whilst he still has time, for he in in for a Queensland. We in North Queensland are very disastrous and embarrassing defeat. The 1,000 miles further from Canberra than are proposals will be defeated not only in the the people of South Queensland and we have outer States but in others, too. even less desire to be controlled by any party from Canberra. The passing of this motion (I hope we will pass it) is a very historic occasion ~or It seems to be a fact of life that most this Parliament. The fact that we are passmg politicians, irrespective of their political it gives notice to the people of Queensland, colour, become mesmerised when they get to and indeed to all of Australia, of how this Canberra. Perhaps it is caused by the glare Parliament feels. We have had Whitlam from the waters of Lake Burley Griffin spokesmen urging these changes. We now as they fly in in the morning. Perhaps it is have another Government in Canberra put­ caused by the magnificent buildings and ting up the same propositions. We should parks and gardens in Canberra that have not fall for any political smooth-talk. We cost the ratepayers of Australia thousands have to recognise, as the Deputy Premier of millions of dollars. Whatever the reason well said, that if the proposals were dan­ they seem to be mesmerised when they get gerous and deceitful three years ago, how to Canberra and develop a disease that I can they be innocent today? What has call Canberraitis. Its symptoms seem to changed? How can it be that what we include the conviction that all good sug­ denounced as black three years ago we now gestions in Australia must come from Can­ advocate as white today? Of course nothing berra and that whatever is done in Canberra has changed. The only things that have is good for Australia. I believe also that changed are some political ambitions. The the only cure for this disease is defeat of proposals are as much bad news for ordinary all referendum proposals put up in Canberra. people today as they were in 1974. That pulls into gear all those with Canberra­ itis and lets them know what the people Those of us who believe in a federal think about their proposals to control Aus­ system, who believe that there should be tralia from the A.C.T. effective brakes in the Constitution, as there are at present, to check the undue ambitions The track record for constitutional amend­ of elected people, will oppose the proposi- ments is not very good. As the honourable tions. I support the motion. member for Toowong mentioned, out of 32 proposals put since 1901 only five have been Mr. M. D. HOOPER (Townsville West) passed, and that ,is a very poor record which (3.2 p.m.): In supporting the motion pro­ should indicate to t:he people in Canberra posed by the Premier, I regret to have to that the attitude of the Australian people is, say that the referendum proposals are to "Hands off our Constitution. Leave it the Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2865 way it is. It has been very good since 1901 present Government is that they have con­ and has got Australia through many trials tracted that old disease of thinking that Can­ and tribulations." berra knows best. They also wish to J:aike more power away from the States. The Leader of the Opposition sees nothing sinister whatsoever in any of the four pro­ I will now deal with the four proposed posals, nor did the people of Australia some amendments to the Constitution. I think the years ago when they gave the Federal Gov­ proposal dealing with simultaneous elections ernment the power to introduce legislation for has been covered very adequately by the honourable member for Toowong. He said the so-called uplifting of the standards of that we do not wish to see too much mani­ Aboriginal people throughout Australia. Look pulation of elections by the Prime Minister at the political football that became in rthe of the day. It is a fact that at the present hands of the Whitlam Government when they time Senate elections are held once every spent hundreds of millions of dollars on three years, when half the Senate goes before wasteful and ridiculous projects which did far the people. In 1901 there was nothing .in ·the more harm than good to the cause of the Constitution which recognised political par­ Aboriginal people. It put it back 20 years. ties, nor was there a provision that Senate They should have gone through the normal elections should be tied to elections for the channels and given the money to the State House of Representatives. All of a sudden Governments, which have the expertise to the Prime Minister wishes to take away the power of the States to decide ·when a Senate help Aborigines. They would not then have election can be held, and if he got away been downgraded as they have been. I could with this proposal, if he had this right to go on and on about that, Mr. Acting Speaker, hold a Senate election simultaneously with a but I do not wish to stray very far from Lower House election, it would mean that if the contents of the motion and I know you there were a double dissolution tomorrow will pull me into gear if I do. and the Prime Minister wished to call an election in 12 months' time, then straight Of the proposed amendments, two were put away he drags out half the senators and to the people as part of a package deal of they lose two years of their term. Then if four proposals back in 1974. They were he wished, later on he could call another approved only in New South Wales; the other quick election if he felt it more expedient five States rejected them completely. The for him to drag out the balance of the Senate. voting ranged from a total of some 247,000 So the whole point of a senator being elected votes against ,the simultaneous elections pro­ for six years would be completely last if this posals up to 450,000 against the proposal amendment were passed by the people of that the Commonwealth Government be able Australia. It would give Prime Ministers the to borrow money in order to make direct right to dictate when elections for the Senate grants to local authorities, and in that sur­ would be held, and not the States, where the reptitious way try to get rid of the powers power really belongs. of the State Governments. The people rejec­ ted those centralis! proposals at that time, The proposal relating the filling of casual and they still reject them today. I am quite vacancies is one which could be rwisted to sure that when the proposals are put before the advantage of an unscrupulous Prime the people on 21 May they will be soundly Minister and should be rejected out of hand. defeated. As I said, the Senate is the States' House and should not be tied to any party. There The Leader of the Opposition seems hell is no reason why if a retiring or deceased bent on shooting the Constitution to shreds. senator belonged to any particular party, that He wants to give more power to Canberra. party should have the right to have one of He accused the State Government of mani­ its party hacks, a fellow who may be com­ pulating the Constitution when it sent a pletely foreign in his attitude to the Govern­ Labor senator to Canberra back in 1975. He ment of the day, fill the vacancy. As the does not like to be reminded, however, of Senate is a States' House, the Government how Messrs. Whitlam, Connor, Cairns and should have the right to make the appoint­ Murphy circumvented the Constitution on 13 ment. Certainly in this House in 1975 the December 1974 by holding an Executive Premier asked the Labor Party to put for­ Council meeting in Canberra without the ward the names of three candidates and it knowledge of the Governor-General when promptly refused to do so. An application they passed a minute to authorise ·the external was received from an A.L.P. man, and he borrowing of $4,000 million without the per­ was subsequently appointed by this State. mJssion of the Loan Council, in other words, without the permission of the six State Gov­ The retiring age of judges is a question ernments. That was quite O.K. with the that has been hotly contested by many Leader of the Opposition and other members people, the most prominent of whom IS of the A.L.P. They can break the Constitu­ probably the most eminent statesman that tion as much as they like. They would like to Australia has had for many years. I refer, see it shot to shreds. Fortunately as things of course, to the Right Honourable Sir turned out, we had the opportunity to get rid Robert Menzies. His comments were-and of those pests in Canberra and elect a more I read from a repor·t in "The Courier-Mail" stable Government. All I can say against the of 23 March 1977-that many of our most 2866 Referendum on Changes to (5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution

eminent High Court judges have been men knows-and they will know for sure when who have passed ·the age of 70 years and the vote is taken-that the proposed resolu­ that they work in a very highly specialised tion is purely and simply a National-Liberal field. He mentioned Mr. Justice Isaacs, Party State parliamentary resolution. It does who sat in the High Court till he was 76, not even have the support of the administra­ and Sir Owen Dixon, probably the greatest tive organisations of the National Party or common lawyer that Australia has had, who the Liberal Party. sat in the High Court till he was 78. If he had retired at 70, plainly the great bulk of It is quite obvious, of course, as the his remarkable career would have been lost Leader of the Opposition has said previously, to the people of Australia. Sir John Latham that the Liberal Party in this House is now resigned when he was 75, so most of his only a junior branch of the National Party, maturity and judgment would also have been and I think that the honourable member for denied to the people of Australia. Toowong made that very clear when he suggested, while speaking in this debate, that In dealing with High Court judges, we are if he had his way the next senator would .be dealing with a very restricted number of men Mr. Sparkes or Mrs. McComb. One would who have .the expertise ·to sit in such a high have thought rthat he, being a Liberal mem­ office. Perhaps only one person in a million ber, would have said "Mrs. McComb or Mr. is destined to become a judge of the High Sparkes", but he did not. He said Mr. Court of Australia. We are not talking Sparkes first, showing in my view, the way about retiring public servants, railway work­ his thoughts really lie. ers or politicians at the age of 60 or 65. There are plenty of people to take their Now, Mr. Acting Speaker, let us .Jook at place, and we should be creating employ­ the motion. Leaving out the preamble, it ment opportunities for younger people in says amongst other things that agreement industry, not hanging on to the older fellows to these four proposals will have the effect who should be put out to grass and given of, firstly, impairing the capacity of rthe a chance to enjoy their retirement. In the Senate to act, as the Constitution intended, case of High Court judges, we would be as a States' House. What does that really paying them a large sum of money if we mean? What is the Premier getting at? retired them at 70 years of age, so why not When was 'the last time in the Senate, the let them keep working and earn their money? so-called States' House, that the senators Mr. Abern: It applies only to the new from any one State lined up and voted ones; it does not apply to the existing ones. together? Mr. M. D. HOOPER: The honourable Mr. Gygar: On the referendum. The ~ember for Landsborough is quite correct; Queensland senators lined up. 1t does not apply to the existing judges. I do not wish to take up any fmther time Mr. HOUSTON: The Queensland senators in the debate. I am pleased to have had from the National and Liberal Parties sup­ the opportunity of speaking, and I urge all ported the resolution. But when was the last honourable members to support the motion time that all the senators elected from and reject the proposals put forward by the Queensland banded together? The last occa­ Federal Government. sion I can recall any Liberal Party or National Party senators crossing the floor was Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (3.12 p.m.): the debate on the apple legislation. But even Before we go very far in this debate, I think then it was not all of the senators from we ought to find out what the proposed Queensland or Tasmania who crossed the resolution really says, Mr. Acting Speaker. floor; it was only a certain number of them. It is quite remarkable that, although the That shows quite clearly that, although the Governmerrt saw such great importance in Liberal and National Parties have a majority bringing the motion before the House today, of senators in a particular State, the Senate a copy of it was not made available to the does not operate as a States' House; it oper­ Opposition. When the Premier sat down, ates according to the political affiliations of a copy still had not been made available senators. There is, of course, the isolated to the Leader of the Opposition so that we instance of a senator differing from the views might know the exact wording of the pro­ expressed by his party. As I say, senators posed resolution, and it was only after I do not act collectively. I have never known made inquiries that I was able to obtain one. a banding together of all senators from one Surely if a matter is of such great import­ State regardless of their political affiliations. ance, every member of ·this Assembly should It is ridiculous to claim that if the four receive a copy of the motion that we are referendum proposals are carried they will debating. interfere with the capacity of the Senate to Of course, the Government has come in to act, as the Constitution intended, as a States' the debate with the arrogant attitude that House. Government members profess to it has the numbers. Instead of making this believe in the existence of an Upper House. decis:on a National-Liberal Party decision, Yet in the 20 years that they have been in it is using the House to put the seal of power in this State they have made no move Parliament on it. The Government is not to reintroduce an Upper House in Queens­ fooling anyone. Everyone outside the House land. Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2867

The second effect as set out in the day did not consider only Mr. Bonner. Other Premier's motion is- names were submitted, but he won the pre­ "transferring essential functions in relation selection-and good luck to him! to elections to the Senate or the filling of casual vacancies in the Senate, from this If Government members want to go further Parliament to the Parliament of the Com­ back in history, I will tell them how George monwealth;" Whiteside was elected. He was elected by this Parliament, but his was not the first Perhaps it could be read into that that the name submitted. Alf Arnell was the first State will lose its right to fill a casual choice, but he was not acceptable to the vacancy. The State, of course, is not losing Government. The Labor Party was asked any such right at all. Let me remind the to submit another nomination. Mr. White­ House of what was originally intended, side was Labor's choice, and he was elected. namely, that when a vacancy occurred in the Senate the Parliament of the State involved On the last occasion, the Government, in would fill the position. That was decided to its wisdom or otherwise, decided it would save cost and to avoid problems associated nominate Mr. Field. The Government did with having a State-wide by-election. It not submit three names. Only his name was considered much easier under the circum­ came from the Government side. The Gov­ stances that existed in 1901, when the Senate ernment claimed that he was a member of was a States' House, to have the State Parlia­ the Labor Party, but the point was that he ment fill the vacancy. The situation has not contravened our rules when he allowed his changed. This referendum proposal, if car­ name to be submitted, and the Government ried, will not affect the right of the State to of the day knew that. fill a casual Senate vacancy. Reference has been made to the public's Do not let us Jose sight of the fact that a choice. When Senator Field went to the ca.sual vacancy should be filled by the people public, was he claimed to be a National as a whole. To get down to democracy and Party or Labor Party candidate? The Gov­ the right of the people-Government mem­ ernment parties campaigned against him by bers should not be advocating the retention supporting their own teams. But the man by the State Parliament of the right to fill a that Labor submitted, the man that the casual Senate vacancy. What they should be Government rejected, the man whom some advocating is the holding of a by-election in honourable members saw fit to criticise in which all the electors of Queensland vote on this House, saying that the people of Queens­ the filling of the Senate vacancy. That would land would not accept him, is now in the be a democratic way of doing it. Govern­ Senate. I am very proud to have Mal ment members, however, prefer to criticise Colston as a parliamentary colleague in the the referendum proposal. Federal field. He has been, and will continue to be, a great Queenslander and a great The third effect is stated as follows:- worker for Queensland. "precluding this Parliament from exercising its sovereign role as regards casual Senate An Opposition Member: And the public vacancies by giving to 'political parties' an rejected Mr. Field. entitlement superseding that of Parlia­ ment;" Mr. HOUSTON: That is true. When That, too, is a lot of nonsense. The Premier the Government's Senate nominee, Mr. Field, told me when I was Leader of the Opposi­ went to the polls, the public rejected him. tion that he asked the Liberal Party to nomin­ Despite what Government members have ate the senator of its choice. Mr. Bonner, said about the electors having the say, when as he then was, was nominated and no other they had their say they told the Government nominee was put forward to this Parliament. that it was wrong. Mr. Byrne: Sir Gordon Chalk did indicate Dr. Lockwood: The people should have at that time that if that was unacceptable they the right to decide. were prepared to bring forward other names to the Parliament. Mr. HOUSTON: The Government does Mr. HOUSTON: The honourable member not give the people the right; it denies them would not know; he was not even here. the right. Mr. Byrne: I read "Hansard". Mr. Colston had been a candidate and went very close to being elected. A great Mr. HOUSTON: After arrangements are number of people supported him prior to his made, it is a very easy matter to say, being rejected by this Par:iament. There "If the nomination is not acceptable, I will was nothing at all wrong in asking that pull it out." Do not let us play around with words somebody happened to say. The he be elected to fill the Senate vacancy. All Liberal Party nominated Mr. Banner and politicians know that a small number of Parliament accepted him unanimously. No people will support a sitting member for other name was submitted; there was no various reasons. It may be that a sitting choice. The Liberal Party hierarchy of the member has had an opportunity to help 2868 Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution

people in some way that an outside can­ The Government says that the fourth pro­ didate has not had. But the percentage that posal should not be accepted because it will the sitting member can virtually hold by his fundamentally alter the federal system of own efforts is very small indeed. Government in Australia. What a lot of non­ sense that amounts to! What does it mean Mr. Lindsay: A maximum of 7 per cent. -fundamentally altering the federal system in Australia? Mr. HOUSTON: The honourable member Mr. Lee: You don't know what federalism is very generous with his percentages. I is. am afraid that he is putting himself on a much higher pedestal than I am prepared to Mr. HOUSTON: Well, I am certain the PLit myself en* I \vould net s~~, that he i:: Mini~ter c1oesn't knnw, He ooesn't know worth 7 per cent, but if that is what he what it means. What is his idea? I invite thinks I will not argue with him. The him to get up and let us hear what his idea point is that only a very small percentage of of federalism is. The Government's philo­ the vote is attributable to a person's own sophy towards federalism is to knock it. As qualities. People vote for the political party a matter of fact, the Government's whole of their choice. That is the reason for all the field of activity-and the reason why it stays present infighting between the various sections in power-is the creation of fear in the of the Liberal and National Parties. minds of the electors. When people vote at elections, they vote Not one word said by the Premier, the for the candidates of a political party. When Deputy Premier, the member for Toowong Senator Milliner was elected, surely he was or the member for Townsville West has been elected not only as a very popular man-we constructive. They have not told the people will allow 7 per cent as his personal vote­ of Queen<;!and anything constructive at all. but also because he received the full support All they have said is that if the four referen­ of the Labor Party. Surely the unsuccessful dum proposals are carried we will be isolated, Labor candidate who received the next great­ and so on. Who is the man heard most on est number of votes should have been his isolating this State from the Commonwealth? replacement. That, of course, was Mal Col­ The only people in this State heard talking ston. The Constitutional amendment pro­ about secession are the Premier and his posed is a Don· .oquence of the Government's supporters. Even the other day the Premier efforts, and it_, efforts alone. was reported to have spoken in that vein to some people, again bringing up the idea I cannot see how, if that proposed amend­ of seceding from the Commonwealth by the ment is carried, it will impair the operation of year 2000. the Senate or the sovereign rights of this State. I have heard some members-and I Mr. Frawley: What's wrong with that? think the honourable member for Toowong was one-talk about a power-hungry leader Mr. HOUSTON: There is another National in the Federal field. By supporting this con­ Party supporter of the proposal. I am very stitutional amendment. we are trying to stop glad to hear the honourable member for a power-hungry Government in this State Murumba ask what is wrong with secession. from exercising a right over other political For one thing-- parties. It has been shown in this Parliament that, if there is a vacancy among the repre­ Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! I sug­ sentation of the Government's political gest the honourable member does not answer. parties, it does not hesitate to fill it with It is not related to the motion. someone from one of its political parties. However, if the vacancy occurs in the repre­ Mr. HOUSTON: It is a very important sentation o~ its opponent's political party, it statement. wants to drctate to that party. Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: It is an import­ Mr. Frawley: Wasn't that bloke Field a ant matter, but it is not related to the n10tion. chairman of one of your branches? Mr. HOUSTON: No, but it will be a very Mr. HOUSTON: Mr. Field was never a important matter, I am sure, in the Mm­ chairman sf any branch in my electorate rumba electorate. I can assure you that I while I have been a member. will not use it in the electorate of Chats­ worth. I do not think that that is Liberal Mr. Frawley: Yes, he was. philosophy. But breaking away from the Commonwealth is certainly the National Mr. HOUSTON: The honourable member Party attitude. What they are trying to do, either takes my word or he doesn't. even now, is to create in the mind of the public the thought that Queensland should Mr. Frawley: I am sorry, but I can't take not really be part of Australia. They talk your word on that. about being good Queenslanders. A good. loyal Queenslander would also be a loyal Mr. HOUSTON: I will remember that. Australian. I am proud to be an Australian. Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2869

I live in Queensland; I work for Queensland it is faced with an election in six months' and I enjoy Queensland; but fundamentally time or 12 months' time-18 months' time and basically I am an Australian and I sug­ at the iongest-for either the House of Rep­ gest that those of the National Party who do resentatives or the Senate. As I said, today not want to be Australians leave the country. the Senate is only a party house. Therefore, Governments of the day try to make sure Canberra is spoken of as if it were a that they control the Senate. So we are foreign city. By the way Government mem­ constantly fighting elections and the Govern­ bers talk about Canberra and the Federal ment is constantly enunciating policies that Parliament, one would think that Canberra will suit the political climate at that time was an isolated place far removed from this because it knows that an election is just nation; but every time the Government wants around the corner. I do not think that that money it goes to Canberra. Whenever is good for the nation, for policy-making something is not carried out, it blames or for implementation of long-range policies. Canberra. It becomes the Government's whipping-boy. Apart from that every 18 months we have the constant cost of full-scale adult fran­ We should look at our Constitution and chise throughout Australia. The leader of remind ourselves that it was drawn up the Liberal Party said that this referendum nearly 80 years ago. Imagine how different was being held at the wrong time. When is things were in the days when the learned the right time to make changes in the gentlemen, who were members of this and Constitution? Always some reason can be other Parliaments, together with their found why it is not an appropriate time to advisers, got together and formulated our hold a referendum. Certainly money is Constitution. The State boundaries were scarce at present, but if the referendum set because of physical features such as proposals are carried money will be saved mountain ranges and rivers. We did not have in the future as there will then be elections aeroplanes or railways and, except for horse every three years instead of every 18 months. and buggy use, the road system hardly The honourable member for Toowong spoke existed. The motor-car was in the early about Prime Ministers bringing on elections stages of its development. Telephones, radio every 12 months. Surely he does not believe and television were unknown. As the hon­ that the people of Australia would elect ourable member for Toowong rightly pointed Governments that would manipulate the out the average life expectancy was under affairs of our nation in such a way. 50 years of age. We are now talking in the year 1977 of a Constitution written as many I have already dealt with the replacement years ago as that and are saying that it of a deceased senator with another belonging should still be applicable today. to ,the same party. The only reason that people are saying Let us now consider the retirement of it should not be changed is that they are judges at the age of 70 years. At the time frightened of change, because they fear it of drawing up the Constitution, life expect­ may interfere with some power base that ancy was about 55 years. I readily admit they have. The problem with the Queens­ that many men in their 70s, 80s and land Government is that it is frightened of older still have their full faculties. One losing its power and its power base and it thing, however, that one cannot cha~ge is trying to hold onto them by criticising with increasing age is the tendency to live others, mainly the Federal Government. in the past. Those in the older age group Perhaps one of the things that are stopping tend to think of their youth and the days Queensland and Australia from progressing when they were growing up. faster and from getting away from the prob­ lems of inflation and unemployment is our Mr. Moore: Judges are looking at law, lack of loyalty for one another. One thing surely. that I am proud of the Labor Party for is that its members have loyalty for one another and support us. Government members know Mr. HOUSTON: I am not talking specific­ no loyalty at all; they do not know what ally about judges; I am talking about people the word means. generally. People in their 80s and 90s become fixed in their ideas. All significant The first proposal is simultaneous Senate changes in all nations have resulted from and House of Representatives elections. Prior agitation by younger people. That is simply to 1963 the two Houses were elected at the the way that life goes on. Whenever there same time and no-one advocated change. At are changes in Parliament or in legislation, least we could say then that we had stable they are effected by new Governments and government and that the Government of the day was the Government elected by the new Ministers. A change of Government people at that time. Since Sir Robert brings change; a change of ~inisters brings Menzies separated them, for his own and change. This happens consistently. his Government's political ends, we have constantly had elections. I do not believe Dr. Scott-Young: There was not much that any Federal Government can operate change in 40 years under Labor administra­ correctly in the long term when all the time tion. 2870 Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution

Mr. HOUSTON: I could not catch what Mr. Moore: This a filibuster. Get to the the honourable member said and apparently point. it was not worth repeating. The point I am making is that the Mr. HOUSTON: The point is that I sup­ thoughts of younger people are constantly port a retiring age of 70 for everpne, judges needed as a spur to the older generation or anyone else. Here Government members that has the responsibility of Government. suggest that Federal judges should be able I believe that when the Constitution was to serve until they are 70, 80 or 90 years drawn up, it was felt that judges would not of age and yet in a recent amendment to live any longer than others in the commun­ the Police Act they supported a provision ity and age 70 would see them pass their relating to the retirement of a Deputy Com­ span. Aided by modern science, people now missioner of Police at 60. Every Govern­ take better care of themselves so that it is ment member voted for that in the Parlia­ quite normal for people to live much longer ment and in the party room. than they did in earlier days. It is also An Opposition Member: They did it on quite normal for older people to be very the cultural Bill too. young in their ,thinking. I am certainly not saying that people older than 70 years of Mr. HOUSTON: Yes. A few months ago age are virtually finished. However, I firmly the Government decided that the Ombuds­ believe that the community should give its man also should retire at 70. There are older citizens the right to enjoy a period of plenty of examples. life in which they are not required to carry the burdens of office, irrespective of what Last but not least is the proposal relating they may be. to referendum voting rights for the Australian Capital Territory and the Northern Mr. Moore: They can retire if they so Territory. I think that the Government's desire. decision to oppose this proposal is a shock­ Mr. HOUSTON: There is inherent in all ing example of discrimination. of us the feeling that we can still go on. Mr. Moore: If they want the right of We feel, "I am needed." I feel that that is States they should be made States. part and parcel of life. Public servants are retired at 65, although many are still very Mr. HOUSTON: They are not asking for capable at that age. Some, because of that rights of States; they are asking for the right capacity, are given other appointments until to vote in referendums. No-one has argued they reach 70 years of age. Only recently that once they are given the right to vote the Leader of the Liberal Party introduced in a referendum they will be given State­ a rule which, I believe, debarred people over hood. What would be wrong with saying to 70 years of age from sitting on certain Gov­ the Northern Territory, "You have now ernment boards, even though these were only reached the stage where you can be classified part-time jobs. I took it that that was in as a State." But this has got to be the the interests of the persons concerned. first stage. At least they should be given Mr. Moore: It stops jobs for the boys. the right to vote in referendums. As the Leader of the Opposition pointed out, we Mr. HOUSTON: I do not know. The hon­ could have a public servant working in ourable member would know more about this State who is transferred to the Northern his Government's appointments than I would. Territory or the Australian Capital Territory, someone who has been living in this State Mr. Moore: I wouldn't know. I don't know for years and who has contributed much. what you are talking about. A person could be working for a private employer and have this happen because quite Mr. HOUSTON: I do not know either, often industries controlled in the southern but the point is that the Government is States-banks and the like-move their per­ retiring people from part-time jobs when sonnel from State to State. Does the Gov­ they reach 70 years of age. ernment argue that, because a person hap­ Mr. Frawley: What's wrong with that? pens to be employed in Darwin or Can­ berra, he is not an Australian? Of course Mr. HOUSTON: I think it is good. I he is an Australian and if he is an Australian have no fight with that at all. he is entitled to the fundamental rights of Mr. Frawley: Don't you think parliamen­ every Australian, and to me the most funda­ tarians should retire at 70? mental right is the right to vote on issues that concern him. This Government talks Mr. HOUSTON: In our party they have at-out looking after the smaller States. Can to, thank you very much. So therefore we h' nourable members think of a smaller State are practising what we preach. Members tf, an the Northern Territory or Canberra-- of our party have to retire at 70, not because we think they are not capable at that age Mr. Knox: It will become a State in its but because they should be able to enjoy own right within three years. a happy retirement and just watch the pas­ Mr. HOUSTON: What, the Northern sing of the years. As I said, it also gives Territory? younger men with younger ideas an opport­ unity to make their contribution. Mr. Knox: Yes. Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2871

Mr. HOUSTON: Voting against this pro­ understatement to use the word "erosive"; it posal will not help them. was in fact a frontal assault. A "Yes" vote to the proposals under review would create Mr. Knox: Voting for this proposal will the climate for a reduction in the ability of postpone the day they become a State. the States to stop Canberra's efforts in the field of power concentration. :Vlr. HOUSTON: That is not right. Mr Bums interjected. Let us examine briefly the simultaneous elections issue. It would be realised in Mr. HOVSTON: That is right. present circumstances that the Senate exists as an independent body, in no way subordin­ Mr. Koox interjected. ate to the House of Representatives. Its mem­ bers are elected for a fixed term and, except Mr. HOUSTON: What are you trying to in the case of a double dissolution, they serve do-tell us that Malcolm Fraser is not tell­ out their terms unaffected by the fate of the ing the truth? House of Representatives. To change this Mr. Knox: No. system by pooling both senators and mem­ bers of the House of Representatives into a Mr. HOUSTON: Is he going to break his common electoral system would greatly promise? The Northern Territory should be diminish the Senate's most treasured posses­ a State. Anyone living in the Northern Ter­ sion-independence. In short, we do not need ritory is just as much an Australian as I am this incursion into standing political freedom. and is entitled to every possible assistance, In fact, it would be disastrous to the political particularly the right to vote for his own des­ stability of the nation if, every time a party tiny. When Darwin was struck by cyclone with a majority in the House of Representa­ 'Tracy", we all said how shocking it was tives saw some advantage in calling an elec­ that our sister city had been so badly dam­ tion, it could require the Senate to face an aged and that people had been hurt. The election at the same time. Premier collected money, as did many others, to assist the people of Darwin because they Simultaneous elections may be cost-saving were Australians. To my mind, the funda­ under the pure dollars-and-cents type of argu­ mental basis of being part of Australia is ment. But who can place a price on the having the full rights of all other Austra­ benefit to Australia of having a powerful and lians. independent Senate? We need only to look back to the events preceding 11 November The proposed resolution says that members 1975 to perceive the strength of the point. In should vote against the four referendum pro­ any event, elections can be brought into phase posals-not one of them or two of them, but by having a House of Representatives poll at the four of them. The Deputy Premier and Senate election-time. There is plenty of Treasurer said, "I am very happy to support the resolution proposed by the Premier." It precedent for this, and there is no reason why says, " ... agrees and resolves to recommend we need constitutional change to achieve to the electors of the State of Queensland simultaneous elections again. rejection of the proposals in these referen­ dums." I say to the honourable gentleman, Another of the issues, namely, Senate :·shame on you and your party for support­ casual vacancies, stands almost in the same mg a move to stop the people of the Northern situation as far as political parties are con­ Territory and the A.C.T. having the full cerned. The danger in a "Yes" vote on this rights of Australian citizens." That is par­ issue is that it would diminish the character ticularly true in the case of the Northern of the Senate as a States' House. As honour­ Territory, which is on Queensland's western able members would be aware, in ·the past boundary. Many former Queenslanders live there have been a number of occasions when and work in the Northern Territory, and the this House has been called on to exercise its honourable gentleman is saying to them, constitutional function of filling casual Senate "Yon are not as good Australians as other vacancies. It has been the practice of this citizens." Parliament to exerdse the choice as to whom it will nominate. The proposed alteration Hon. W. D. UCKISS (Mt. Coot-tha­ would destroy the right to a choice. The Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) effect of it would be to give political parties (3.47 p.m.): I rise to support the motion and not the Parliament the right to nominate moved by the Premier and seconded by the the successor to fill a Senate vacancy. The Deputy Premier and Treasurer. As the nominee could be a pers·on totally unsuited to Premier so concisely stated, the common public office, yet this House would not be denominator in the issues under debate is able to reject the nomination. This type of centralism versus the right of the States to situation would reduce this House, and ·indeed run their own political affairs. others in the nation, to one having the effec­ tiveness of a rubber stamp. There has been an increasing awareness of the need to safeguard State rights in a total I would point out that the concept of the sense since erosive measures in this area embodiment in the Constitution of the were introduced by the Whitlam Government identity of political parties is at least a novel during its term of office. In fact, it is an one. It may be unique. While on most 2872 Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution

oocasions I am not averse to breaking new Who does the Queensland Government ground, I am very much opposed to doing want? Does it want itself? Who does the it in the context of a scheme like this one. Queensland Government want in charge in Again I would strongly support the Canberra? What does it want from Canberra? Premier's poi..'1t that the interests of Queens­ What does it think it should receive in landers are at stake here. It is our duty to Queensland? Does it always expect to get its safeguard completely those interests at all own way? Should it always get its own way? times, and that is why we are firmly advocat­ Not under our federal system, where we ing a "No" vote on these issues. should get what is good for all the people of Australia as a whole! I noted that the previous speaker made great play of Ll:le proposal to give to the The way the Government is carrying on people of the Northern Territory the right to with this and other matters, it is obvious that vote on constitutional matters. It is a pity it does not care what the people want. Its that he had not involved himself in some main interest as a political entity is to ensure study of the basis of the Australian Con­ its survival. It does not believe in considering stitution. It was drawn up by the States and the people of the A.C.T. and the Northern in fact its preamble indicates quite clearly Territory. The Minister for Justice tried in the States involved in its preparation. The a very weak way to justify the Government's Commonwealth Government to be formed opposition to these people getting a vote, to by virtue of the Constitution was given pow­ their having a say in what is to happen in ers to legislate for the Territories of Aus­ the Commonwealth of Australia. Is the tralia. They were separate fu'1d apart. It is Queensland Government saying that these quite clear that the intention of our founding people do not exist, that no-one lives in fathers was that the States of the day would, Darwin, Katherine, Alice Springs, the A.C.T., by virtue of the Constitution, cede powers or the island territories? Many years ago to the Commonwealth Government and that there may have been justification for such a the Territories were outside the ambit of the stance when people of different races and Commonwealth. I am not saying this in any nationality in the Territories of Papua and derogatory sense; it is merely the way in New Guinea were controlled by Australia. which the Constitution was drawn up. 'In These people now make up a self-governing fact, it could be said of the Commonwealth nation. They are of themselves. Surely it is that it is a political entity, not a geographical time that we had a fresh look at our Austra­ one. lian Constitution, and said that the people This is a matter that deserves a great deal of the Northern Territory and the A.C.T. are of study by all of us. We all know how the Australians. country's background has been formulated If a person is transferred from Kingaroy and how the system under whioh we work to Canberra, and is a good, honest person, has been evolved. surely he is entitled to the same say in Can­ By interjection the Deputy Premier expres­ berra as in Kingaroy. Why should he be sed the hope that the Northern Territory denigrated and made a second-class citizen? would become a State. As one who lived The people in those communities pay their for about 6t years in the Northern Terri­ taxes just like the rest of the people in tory, particularly during its post-war rehabi­ Australia. The ringer on a station at Alice litation, I also hope that it will achieve Springs makes the same contribution as the statehood in tlhe shortest possible time. It is ringer on a station at Cloncurry. one thing to do these things in an orderly After Cyclone Tracy a great number of manner; it is another to abort the provi~ions people came from Darwin and settled in of the Constitution for political expediency. Queensland for 12 months or two years. I strongly support the motion moved by Mr. Moore: Some are staying for ever. the Premier and seconded by the Deputy Premier. Mr. CASEY: Some of them are staying Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (3.54 p.m.): In all on, but recent statistics show that the this Government's present moves and especi­ majority have moved back to Darwin. That ally in this one, one group of people have disaster gave them better citizenship rights been totally forgotten-the people of Queens­ than they had in Darwin. Having returned land. In its endeavours and moves as exem­ to Darwin, surely their citizenship should not plified by this motion, the Government has be different. Surely we must believe that they shown that it is more interested and wrapped are entitled to fully fledged Australian up in its own survival than in the people of citizenship. Queensland. On the retirement of High Court judges Amidst the division that has occurred at 70, we heard the Deputy Leader of the between the coalition parties their members Opposition detail what we have done in this are now trying to find a common ground on Parliament in recent times. Within the past which they hope to survive. Back in 1975 12 months we have amended legislation to they did not want Whitlam in the Federal provide that appointees to harbour boards, sphere; today they don't want Fraser and electricity boards and hospital boards must Anthony. i retire at 70 years of age, yet today the Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2873

Government is hypocritically saying that saving time in the election of the Upper judges in the High Court should be allowed House? What is wrong with amending the to continue until they are 80 or 90 years of Constitution to save money for the p.-cople of As an example of senility, I cite the Australia by having simultaneous elections? member for Surfers Paradise. Why should senators remain in office for six Outside the House he is a tremendous per­ years? In the event of a double dissolution, former who engages in dancing and many they must face the people immediately. Why other things, but he comes to the House to shouldn't we have simultaneous elections for rest, relax and recuperate from his week-end the Senate and the House of Representatives He never asks a question and never at other times? If the elections for both What sort of a contribution Houses are brought into line with each other, is that? Premier, in his motion, said that then every three years there will be simul­ the Parliament of Queensland is sacrosanct taneous elections unless some political crisis and he outlined what should happen here, hits the Government. In that event, surely yet we have well over 70 years of the will want a say in what is going who use Assembly as a boarding that is the people's right. It is place in which they can recuperate. right to say whether they want to elect the Senate or not; it is not the right of Queensland National Party par­ senators to "Once I am here, brother, and their fellow travellers in I am here for years a:1d there is nothing Party opposing these two items? you can do about it." address, the Premier dealt at first two referendum issues, in many respects--and we have said not a word about the other two. heard advocated by the member for Too­ Why is the Government opposing all of the wong and many of the other arch-conserva­ issues? Perhaps it is because it believes it is tive supporters of the National Party in this better to succeed in nothing than to House-Government members would prefer attempt something and fail. to have an Upper House system similar to that in Western Australia. Of course they In part of his speech supporting the would, because it can never be changed. The motion, the Premier referred to the Senate political strength of the Upper House in as a States' House. 1t has never acted Western Australia has not been changed in as a House. It is to say 80 or 90 years. I suppose some members in that it has. We all know that has never this House would rather we had an Upper occurred since Federation in 1901. It cer- House along the same lines as the West­ cUd not act as a States' House in mirrster system, with its House of Lords, in when there was great trauma. It was which a person of blue blood or one appointed very much a political House at that time. for some reason or other can take his seat Dare anyone say it was a States' House as of right and rule the lives of the people. then? The defeat of the Whitlam Govern­ ment was brought about by political actions However; the Senate in Australia is en­ in the Senate-not by the actions of the tirely different from the Upper Houses in so States; not by the actions of various people many other places, as we found in 1975. It in the interests of the States. Why say is completely and utterly a political House that Senate acts as a States' House? It which can change the destiny of a Govern- is far from it. It certainly has not acted as ment. shouldn't senators submit them- a States' House in the Torres Strait affair. We selves to people for election at the same have not seen Queensland senators as a whole time as members of the House of Represen­ together to put forward what the tatives? Why shouldn't they be prep

this Government and by this Premier when But, instead, the Government is trying to he appointed Pat Field to take the place of get out from under in relation to its suppoti the late Senator Bertie Milliner. If a "Yes" for Fraser. Only 15 months ago the Prem­ vote in the referendum will re-establish the ier, every Minister and every back-bench former practice, this country can never again Government member, be he Liberal or be thrown into chaos by a political maniac National, stomped the length and breadth motivated by a personal reason or any wish of this State saying, "You have got to get of his own; the wishes of the people will rid of Whitlam. You have got rto put have to be followed. The sorry story of Fraser in. Fraser is the saviour of Queens­ Pat Field has been told in part in this House land. Fraser is the saviour of Australia." today. The part that has not been told He has certainly gone down the drain because properly is the way his appointment showed we are now in far greater strife than we the Premier's attitude rtowards the Senate. have ever been before. This has come about thanks to Fraser, Anthony, Lynch and the Mr. Jones: And towards the individual. rest of their henchmen in Canberra.

Mr. CASEY: Towards the individual, This is what is happening today. The which is even worse. Government is deliberately trying to consoli­ date its affairs in order to again pull the Pat Field was used and then thrown onto wool over the eyes of the people of Queens­ the scrap-heap. The day that the Premier land, as it did in 1975, in 1974 and on so stood up in this House and nominated Pat many other occasions since it took office Field to fill the Senate vacancy, he knew he 20 years ago. I say to the Government was using this man. We knew it. What of Queensland, "You put Fraser and Anthony shame followed when the double dissolution there. You suffer them. You cop them. occurred. Pat Field was completely pushed They're your people, not ours. This puny aside and was shown no consideration and motion moved today will certainly not get given no thought by the Premier or this you out of your predicament. Never mind Government. Is this the action of a Christian coming here trying to put out a smoke­ Government or a caring Government? Cer­ screen to cover your own divisions instead of tainly not! The Premier used Pat Field getting on with the affairs of this State." for political gain and then, like the Roman Let the Government not rtry to say that dictators, simply threw him to the lions. there are no such divisions. Their presence came out very clearly today in the speech Our role in this Queensland Parliament is made by the honourable member for Too­ quite clear. Instead of debating a motion wong who, we all know, was the Premier's such as this, we should be discussing the first emergency to change from the Liberal problems that confront the people of Queens­ Party to the National Party in order to land. We should be conducting the affairs bolster numbers should the Premier not get of the people of Queensland instead of being his way with the Liberals. mucked about with this debate. There are so many problems that we should be con­ The member who is about to follow me cerning ourselves with rather than this motion. in the list of speakers, the honourable mem­ We should concern ourselves with rthe move­ ber for Merthyr, was second emergency. ment of Queensland towards a police State. Everyone knows that they were the first two who would go to the National Party to We have seen so much of it only this bolster their numbers. There were others, week with the refusal of the Government to too, to follow. We all know that the Minis­ do anything about the report submitted by ter who spoke ahead of me and who poorly Commander O'Connell. It should be made tried to defend the Premier's action was the public so rthat the fears of the people of only Liberal Minister in this State to be the Queensland can be allayed. The report choice of a National Party Premier. We all know that, when the Ministry was changed should be tabled in this Parliament. Part back in 1974 or early 1975, it was the of the Vote of this Parliament was used to Premier who chose him and, as a con­ pay the Scotland Yard detectives to come sequence, another motion had to be passed here from England to conduct an investiga­ in this House to add another two to Cabinet tion. But no report has come to the Queens­ to preserve the balance of power. land Parliament about what is happening or what has happened in this respect. The people, not the Premier, must decide the referendum proposals. The Premier talks These are the things we should be debating of the role of this House in the pious motion today, instead of a motion such as this one. that he put forward, yet he completely dis­ We should be concerning ourselves with the regards it himself. After starting this debate gerrymander that is about rto go on in and laying down its terms, he went to the Queensland. We should be talking about how other chamber to engage in a Press con­ democracy is about to go out the door. We ference for most of the rest of the day. It could be talking about the complete decline does not matter to him what is said here. of democracy in Queensland. We should He has done what he wanted to do and debate those matters rather than rthis motion. members of the National Party and their We should be talking about the sad plight of camp followers in the Liberal Party have our primary industries. followed suit. Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2875

It is only the people of this State who can Mr. YEWDALE: I rise to a point of order. stop the Premier's run, and they must do so. Is the honourable member allowed to wear They have· their opportunity with their votes that decoration on his lapel in the Chamber? on the referendum proposals and they must take it if democracy is to survive in Queens­ Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. Gunn): land. Order! There is no point of order. Mr. LANE (Merthyr) (4.12 p.m.): I am very pleased to enter the debate to support Mr. LANE: Of course I would not wear the motion currently before the House it. I merely put it there to indicate to because I believe now, as I did in 1974, that members the fact that we are consistent, the people of Queensland, indeed of Aus­ that we have a political integrity and that tralia, will reject these deceptive and quite we adhere to a principle of government-- deceitful referendum proposals. When I stood on the back of a truck at the corner Mr. Casey interjected. of Merthyr Road and Brunswick Street, New Farm, in 1974 with this pamphlet which I Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The now have in my hand, which advocated a honourable member for Mackay is inter­ "No" vote at that referendum, I was accom­ jecting from other than his proper place. panied by Federal members and candidates, and when I quoted from that document I knew I was doing the right thing and talking Mr. LANE: The National Party candidate on a matter of principle. and the Liberal Party candidate for the Federal seat of Brisbane produced these 1 intend to be consistent now and do how-to-vote cards in 1974 on rthe very same exactly the same thing, and for exactly the questions that we are asked to vote on again same reasons. I believe the reasons why the this year. On that occasion the cards read present proposals will receive a very resound­ "Vote no". Yet one of the greatest advo­ ing "No" vote are the same as they were on cates in this State of a "Yes" vote on this the previous occasion. These proposals will occasion is a man who has a Cabinet respons­ make the Senate a rubber stamp for a ibility to advocate such a thing, to be one socialist, centralist Government for all time. of the banner carriers and flag wavers. He I take those words exactly from the official is the Honourable Eric Robinson, Minister ''No" case which was put before the people for Post and Telecommunications and Min­ of Australia in 1974. That was a case pre­ ister Assisting the Treasurer. I have here pared, I might say, by the Federal secretary the pamphlet he produced back in 1974 refer­ of the Liberal Party in Canberra and put ring to the same referendum proposals. On forward nationally by Mr. Snedden and that occasion he referred to Labor's sneaky Senator Withers. and deceptive referendums. The pamphlet read- Now these same people ask me to stand on the back of the same truck and address "Don't be misled by Labor's Refer­ the same people in the same constituency and endums. They use appealing words to take the opposite course. Because that would dress up shabby A.L.P. objectives. They be completely hypocritical, I do not intend to are aimed at- do so. It would be deceitful and misleading (a) Writing electoral advantages for because the same principles are again at Labor at both State and Federal elect­ stake. One is the principle of no more ions into the constitution. power to Canberra and another is the sharing (b) Limiting the ability of each State of political power equally throughout the Government to control State matters, nation between State Governments and the and placing control over these in the two Houses of the Commonwealth Parlia­ hands of Canberra bureaucracies. ment. Those are the basic issues that are at stake on this occasion. (c) Eliminating the need for a major­ ity of States to vote in favour before Those Federal members who shared that a referendum is carried, to make it platform with me in 1974 were proud to easier to have items from the Labor advocate a "No" vote on their how-to-vote Federal Platform written into the Con­ cards. I have with me here how-to-vote stitution." cards for the Federal division of Ryan (Mr. Drury) and the Federal division of That is what Mr. Eric Robinson said, but McPherson (Mr. Robinson) advocating a today he is taking the opposite course. Inter­ ''No" vote to each question. On that occa­ estingly enough, on this very pamphlet we sion the Liberal Party sent a letter to all its have a photograph of Mr. Eric Robinson members advising them to tell people to vote and Senator Kathy Martin together advocat­ ''No" on that occasion. Of course, we all ing a "No" vote. Now, I am very pleased stood proudly at the polling booths in 1974 to acknowledge that Senator Kathy Martin wearing this how-to-vote card I have here, is a person who has had sufficient integrity which says "Liberal-National Party-Vote to stand up to this opportunist move by the No". That is what we wore in 1974 and Federal Government and dissociate herself they are the same cards we will wear in 1977 publicly from it. She will, of course, join when we will defeat exactly the same pro­ with us in the campaign for a "No" vote on posals-- these four issues in Queensland. That is 2876 Referendum on Changes to (5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution why she was here in 'the Parliament today, passed, that people give a majority "Yes" to register her support for this campaign vote to that proposal, because it seeks to that will be waged very carefully and very diminish the Senate and ultimately to abolish deliberately from Parliament House. But it. It is part of the A.L.P.'s policy and the thing that is probably most annoying, part of its platform, and members proudly apart from the lack of consistency and lack proclaim in this place that their policy and of political integrity on these occasions, is platform is the abolition of the Senate, the the deceit which is contained in this legisla­ States' House, which is the last protection tion. I have with me the two Bills relat­ against centralised control of Government in ing to the referendum proposal for simultan­ Canberra. The last thing that stands between eous elections, the one prepared in 1973 and us and that is the Senate, the States' House the one prepared in 1977, and the words are in Canberra. Honourable members opposite identical. There is deceit even in the first say that unashamedly, and I pay them due few paragraphs of these Bills. I would like respect for the consistency of the Australian to draw the attention of honourable mem­ Labor Party in standing up proudly and say­ bers and the public of Queensland to clause ing that it wishes to do away with the 3 of the 1973 legislation, which is exactly Senate. the same as the 1977 Bill. It reads- "Section 9 of the Constitution is altered I suggest that the Federal politicians who by omitting the second paragraph and are playing along with this now for reasons substituting ,the following paragraph:- of short-term expediency are damned fools to follow Labor's example. All that the 'The Parliament may make laws for Federal Liberal-National Country Party Gov­ determining the times and places of ernment wishes to achieve with this referen­ elections of senators.'." dum is a postponement of a Senate election That clause, which stands in isolation, is -a postponement of six months in facing not suggested as being something that would the people at a Senate election, as it would be clearly inserted in the Constitution in its have to before the end of June next year. own right. It does not suggest in any way For reasons of short-term expediency, it that elections should be simultaneous or that would succumb to the Labor Party's idea they be tied together. It merely inserts the of doing away with the Senate entirely. broad and open power to the Commonwealth to make laws to determine the times and Speaking from where I do-the small places of elections of senators. That quite electorate of Merthyr in the capital city of deceitful proposition that was inserted in Queensland-! say quite clearly that I that legislation back in 1973 and put to the advocate to the people that they should give people in 1974 in a referendum is still con­ no more power to Canberra, that they should tained in the legislation passed by the Fed.eral safeguard the Senate as our place of pro­ Parliament this year. It is just as dece1tf~1l tection in Canberra, and that they should and hypocritical today as it was back m vote a resounding "No" to the four proposals 1974. It seeks to obtain for the Common­ in the referendum to be held on 21 May wealth Parliament a broad, open power for this year, and I am confident that the sensible the holding of Senate elections at times and people of Queensiand-indeed, the over­ places that it shall decide, not simultan­ whelming majority of the people of Queem­ eously, as proposed in the question that will Jand-will follow that advice and vote be put to the people. "No" on 21 May.

The question that is suggested at the Dr. SCOIT-YOUNG (Townsville) (4.24 moment-and I will read the exact words­ p.m.): In thinking about referendums, I is that it is for "an Act to alter the have given due consideration to the fact Constitution so as to ensure that Senate that they are the only means by which elections are held at the same time as House the average person can voice his approval of Representatives elections", and it is sug­ or disapproval of any irregular attempt to gested that people should vote "Yes" to change the Constitution. that proposal. Of course, if you vote "Yes" to the proposal contained in those words, Certain countries have constitutions, and Mr. Deputy Speaker, you in fact are not there are certain methods of altering those voting for simultaneous elections; you are .onstitutions. In the United States of voting for elections at times and places the America the Constitution can be changed by Commonwealth Government shall decide. two means-by the combined efforts of the There could be Senate elections every week, Federal and State Legislatures, initiated by or in separate places every month, or three two-thirds of both Houses and ratified by a year, or any number you like to name, three-quarters of the State Legislatures; or because the Federal Government claims the two.,thirds of the States may call on Congress broad power to dissolve the Senate at will, to hold a convention for investigation of the whenever it likes. On this occasion, the proposed changes. Federal Government is quite deceitfully fol­ lowing Whitlam's example. Another very interesting country is Of course, it is no wonder that the Aus­ Switzerland, where the Constitution can be tralian Labor Party desires that that be changed on a petition of 50,000 voters. When Referendum on Changes to [5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution 2877

you come to :think of this, Mr. Deputy and may upon such admission or establish­ Speaker, it is a colossal power vested in the ment make or impose such terms and con­ people. Switzerland has the highest living ditions, including vhe extent of representa­ standard in the world today and is free from tion in either House of the Parliament, as internal conflict. It probably is the only it thinks fit." country in the world which can say that it is free from internal conflict. Despite its Section 123 refers to the limits af States. As mixed population of Germans, French, Swiss I say, under the Constitution new States can and Italians, its people live in complete har­ be established. Therefore I cannot under­ ~ony. .f\s I. say, it can be asked to change stand why the Fraser Government wants to 1ts ConstitutiOn on the petition of 50,000 alter the Constitution. voters. The other interesting point is that in Switzerland political crises are unknown. As the Prime Minister is considering Compare that with the situation in Australia changing the Constitution, he should think -a young, vigorous country-where a large about changing section 125, whioh refers to number of political crises have occurred the seat of Government and which gave rise within the past six years and we are now to one of the greatest disasters Australia has facing another one. In Switzerland the known. The seat of Government has become Constitution can be changed on a majority a financial burden on the people; it is remote vote over the whole country and a majority from the main cities and centres of dense of Cantons. The position is similar to that population; ,it ,is totally remote from our lines in Australia. of communication and the main industrial complexes; and its members of Parliament Various moves have been made to alter and public servants become mentally and our. Constitution. One, which failed, was emotionally aloof from the rest of the Aus­ designed to allow for the much easier pass,ing tralian population and Jive in a fantasy world of a referendum. Under the Constitution of their own, divorced from the rest of the there needs to be a majority overall as well nation. These are the people who are bl.'ing­ as a majority of States before the Constitu­ ing forward to the ordinary sensible person, tion can be altered. Any proposal to alter every Tom, Dick or Harry, the proposals that it must be submitted to the voters. he is asked to vote on. Inhabitants of the A.C.T. lack the mental stimulus of contact Unfortunately Mr. Fraser and Mr. Whit­ with larger communities and the pressing lam often forget the voters. Mr. Whitlam needs of such communities. They must there­ definitely did, until he turned up for what fore be less fit to deal with the problems of he thought would be an overwhelming victory government. but actually turned out to be a rout. No general was so well and truly stoushed as Mr. The problems created under section 125 V\:'hitlam. He forgot the fact that the people will undoubtedly increase as population and stJ]l have the last say not only on elections industry expand, with their attendant increas­ but also on referendums. ing socio-econo;nic problems. If the Com­ monwealth wants to give a vote to the people In the Federal Parliament there exists an of the Territories, it should first give them Opposition. The average citizen gauges the Statehood. We must not permit a plan to political warmth or atmosphere by reading be foisted on the public whereby a con­ the opposing points of view put forward by centrated minority can act as a whip for the Government and by the Opposition. It use on the rest of the community. The concentrated minority will usually follow appears, however, that in Canberra at present the policy dictates of the party in power, there is no Opposition. All parties seem to especially in Canberra. be of the one colour-a pinkish hue. Sud­ denly we discover that the Liberal-National The most sinister of all the referendum Country Party Government is advocating a proposals is the simple one on the retiring referendum against which it fought and pro­ age of High Court judges. Section 72 (ii) tested vigorously two years ago. In fact the of the Constitution, which deals with the wording of the proposals has not been appointment and removal of High Court altered in any way. Perhaps the change of judges says- heart on the part of our Canberra politicians "Shall not be removed except by the should be investigated. Governor-General in Council on an address from both Houses of the Parliament in A proposal on which I wish to speak is the the same session, praying for such removal one that will give to inhabitants of the Nor­ on the ground of proved misbehaviour or thern Territory the right to vote. If anyone incapacity:" reads the Constitution he will find that there It is a known fact that age has certain is no need whatever for such a proposal. effects on people. One effect is that it gives Under sections 121 and 122 the Common­ a man judgment and balance. His decisions wealth is given the power to establish new and future actions are based on knowledge States. Section 121 provides- and a rich background. No man appointed to the High Court of this nation is an "The (Federal) Parliament may admit to idiot. He can only benefit by maturity and the Commonwealth or establish new States, age. We might even see Justice Murphy 2878 Referendum on Changes to (5 APRIL 1977] Commonwealth Constitution become more Christianlike and lose many they don't want any more politicians! The of his humanism ideas; he may think more man in the street sits and listens and reads­ of the people of the nation than his personal and he is no fool. ego. There is even hope for that. The about-face of the Federal Government It is rather interesting to read the proposed changes. The High Court is an interesting must demonstrate to the public the shallow­ court. Its province is to interpret the Con­ ness of character of Mr. Fraser and high­ stitution of the Commonwealth and Federal light the attitude of our Premier. The Pre­ and State statutes; it is a Court of Appeal mier's stand again demonstrates his honesty from the courts of the States, and it is a and integrity and that he is a true patriot and court of original jurisdiction. That is a a champion of federalism and democracy. very important fact. These functions make this court powerful. On looking at the Mr. YEWDALE: Mr. Deputy Speaker-- changes in the Constitution, especially those to section 71, I see that this is the most far-reaching section in the Constitution. The Mr. WHARTON: Mr. Deputy Speaker-­ High Court interpretation of this section has done what referendums could not do. It Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. Gunn): I altered the Constitution by legal procedures. call the Minister for Aboriginal and Island­ That should make us realise that the so-called ers Advancement and Fisheries. simple change is a step in the direction of stacking the High Court politically to advance Hon. C. A. WHARTON (Burnett-Minis­ the whims of a centralist Government. This ter for Aboriginal and Islanders Advancement is not necessarily a socialist A.L.P. Govern­ and Fisheries): I move- ment. It relates to the most treacherous of all types of Government, that is, a "That the question be now put." centralist Government in the sheep's clothing of Liberalism. On looking at the alteration Mr. YEWDALE: I rise to a point of relative to judges, in paragraph 6, it says- order. I was on my feet; I received the call; I started to speak and you called the Minister. "The Parliament may make a law fixing an age that is less than seventy years as the maximum age for Justices of a court Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The treated by the Parliament and may at Minister has moved that the question be now any time repeal or amend such a law, ..." put.

It then uses a little bit of soft soap to give Question put; and the House divided­ the impression that it is not as bad as it appears. It says- AYES, 56 "but any such repeal or amendment does Ahern Lamond Akers Lamont not affect the term of office of a Justice Alison Lane under an appointment made before the Armstrong Lee Bird Lester repeal or amendment." Bjelke-Petersen Lie kiss Brown LindsaY That, subject to interpretation by a lawyer, Byme Lockwood leaves a lot to be explained. It leaves the Camm Lowes Camp bell McKechnie door wide open. I emphasise the words Cory Miller "may at any time repeal or amend such a Deeral Muller Downany Neat law." Those are the key words. This nice Elliott Porter little pill will allow the Federal Government, Frawley Row Gibbs Scott-Young centralist as it is-and it has not changed at Glasson Simpson all since Fraser got in-to stack the High Goleby Sullivan Greenwood Tenni Court. It will allow the Government to Gygar Tomkins remove people who do not agree with its Hales Turner Herbert Warner ideas. It may change the age. A judge who Hewitt, N. T. E. Wharton is 65 may not like the legislation put through, Hodges Young Hooper, K. W. so the Government can quite easily alter Hooper, M. D. the date of his retirement and get rid of Kaus Tellers: him. Kippin Knox Bertoni Kyburz Moo re These referendum proposals give me the impression that there are now in charge in NoEs, 11 Canberra a group of politicians completely Burns Wright divorced from the electorate. They live in Casey Yewdale Dean a madhatter's castle in the A.C.T. and are Hooper. K. J. Tellers: quite willing to sacrifice the Constitution of Houston Marginson Jones their country for political survival and Prest Mel!oy political gain. It must make all clear-thinking Australians sick of politicians. No wonder Resolved in the affirmative. Railway Proposal [5 APRIL 1977] Railway Proposal 2879

Question-That the motion (Mr. Bjelke­ This motion deserves the support of honour­ Petersen) be agreed to-put; and the House able members as it is an integral facet of divided- another major coal-mining venture which in AYES, 57 turn will give rise to increased revenue to the State and more job opportunities and Ahern Kyburz Akers Lamond associated benefits. Alison Lamont Armstrong Lane Queensland Coal Mining Co. Hd., a sub­ Bird Lee sidiary of Broken Hill Proprietary Co. Ltd., Bjelke-Petersen Lester Brown Lickiss has been considering the development of the Byrne Lindsay Gregory Coal Mine since early 1974, when Camm Lockwood initial discussions took place between the Camp bell Lowes Cory McKechnie company and various Government depart­ Deeral Miller ments. A downturn in the economic climate Doumany Muller Elliott Neal delayed the company's progress in this pro­ Frawley Porter ject, but in recent months negotiations Gibbs Row between the company and several Govern­ Glasson Scott-Young Goleby Simpson ment departments have reached the stage Greenwood Sullivan where the company considers it appropriate Gygar Tenni to proceed with the preliminary design of the Hales Tomkins Herbert Turner new railways. Hewitt, N. T. E. Warner Hinze Wharton To gain access to the existing Central Rail­ Hodges Young way Line, it is proposed that a new railway Hooper, K. W. Hooper, M. D. Tellers: line of 67.9 kilometres be constructed from Kaus the Gregory Mine to a junction near Tolmies Kippin Bertoni Siding, 13 kilometres west of Blackwater, in Knox Moo re Central Queensland. It is also proposed that NOES, 11 a new railway line 7.7 kilometres long be Burns Wright built from Callemondah Sidings to the Casey Yewdale Clinton Estate port, which is about four kilo­ Dean metres north-west from Gladstone. These Hooper, K. J. Houston Tellers: two branch lines would meet the requirements Margin son Jones of the prospecting company, Dampier Mining Prest Melloy Co. Ltd., a wholly owned subsidiary of Broken Hill Proprietary Co. Ltd., which Resolved in the affirmative. has the backing of the total resources of the B.H.P. group of companies. PROPOSED RAILWAY TO GREGORY By way of explanation-the Queensland MINE AND CLINTON ESTATE Coal Mining Co. Ltd., which made the INITIATION original approach to the Railway Department on this project, has made application for a Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes-Min­ mining lease covering the coal deposits in the ister for Transport): I move- area known as Gregory Mine, and it will be "That the Acting Speaker do now leave subleasing the area to the Dampier Mining the chair and the House resolve itself into Co. Ltd. a Committee of the Whole to consider the following resolution:- It is estimated that there are 75 000 000 tonnes of various grades of coal reserves at 'That the House approves of working the Gregory Mine, which is 40 kilometres plans and sections and book of reference south-east of Capella. The company's present of proposed railway connections from plans are to transport 3 000 000 tonnes of the vicinity of Tolmies Siding (Central coal per annum by rail from the Gregory Line) to Gregory Mine and from Calle­ Mine to the Clinton Estate port at Gladstone. mondah (near Gladstone) to Clinton This 3 000 000 tonnes will boost !:he annual Estate.'" haulage rate of coal to about 12 000 000 Motion agreed to. tonnes from the Blackwater area to Glad­ stone by late 1979. COMMITTEE Apart from the construction of the two (Mr. Row, Hinchinbrook, in the chair) branch lines, it will be necessary to undertake a major upgrading programme for the Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes-Min­ Central and North Coast Lines and provide ister for Transport) (4.55 p.m.): I move- additional railway facilities in certain areas. "That the House approves of working The company's own consultants have car­ plans and sections and book of reference ried out a survey for the proposed branch of proposed railway connections from the lines, while officers of the Queensland Gov­ vicinity of Tolmies Siding (Central Line) ernment Railways have examined the require­ to Gregory Mine and from Callemondah ments for handling the additional coal traffic (near Gladstone) to Clinton Estate.'' on the Central and North Coast Lines. An 2880 Railway Proposal [5 APRIL 1977] Railway Proposal agreement will be concluded between the of smaller bridges over other watercourses. Commissioner for Railways and the Dampier The McKenzie River bridge will consist of Mining Co. Ltd. for the transport of 22 spans, giv,ing a total length of 564 metres. 3 000 000 tonnes of coal per annum from This bridge is vital to the completion of the the Gregory Mine to the Clinton Estate port. branch line to Gregory and is expected to take about two years to construct. At the same time, it is also proposed that the existing annual commitment of 800 000 The permanent way of both new lines will tonnes of coal from the Cook and Leichhardt be laid with 47 kg rail and provision has Mines be handled at the Clinton Estate been made for a new station at the junction installation instead of at Auckland Point. of the Gregory line and the Central line. The heavy volume of traffic already opera­ Two crossing loops will also be constructed ting on sections of the North Coast and on the Gregory line for train crossing pur­ Central Lines requires that the size of the poses. unit coal trains be increased. The Railway The Gregory branch line will pass through Department proposes that the Gregory traffic, a number of pastoral holdings, which will along with trains from the Cook and Leich­ result in the resumption of 267 hectares. hardt Mines and the Gladstone Power Station traffic from Boorgoon, be handled in Locotrol­ On the other hand, the proposed Clinton equipped trains consisting of five 90-tonne Estate branch line passes through Crown land diesel-electric locomotives and one hundred occupied partially by the Department of 71-tonne wagons. Crossing loops are at Commercial and Industrial Development and present installed for the operation of only partially by the Gladstone Harbour Board. three locomotives and 69 wagons, so it will The area required for the passage of that be necessary to extend the loops to operate Iine is 71 ha. the lOO-wagon trains. As well as the loop The estimated cost of the two branch lines extensions and other track work, a sizeable is $22,000,000, but in addition a sum still to diesel shed and wagon-servicing complex will be agreed upon will be provided for upgrad­ be built at Callemondah for the traffic which ing the Central and North Coast lines and will terminate there. the Callemondah complex, which includes the The unparalleled increase in traffic on the marshaUing yard and diesel and wagon-ser­ Central and North Coast Lines since the first vicing faci1ities. coal was railed from the Blackwater Mines It is proposed that the Dampier Mining Co. in the late 1960s has seen an accompanying Ltd. lodge a security deposit equivalent to development in train size from 55 wagons the capital for the project. This deposit will each of 16 tonnes gross hauled by a solitary be available for use by the Commissioner in diesel to the proposed five-diesel lOO-wagon building the new lines, purchasing the loco­ trains, with a payload of many thousands of motives and rolling-stock and for upgrading tonnes. the Central and North Coast lines. The efficiency and benefits of Locotrol­ Provision will also be made in the agree­ operated trains have been proven on the ment for the transport of minimum annual Goonyella 1ine and this system will enable the tonnages to qualify for a refund of the department to continue increasing its hauling secmity deposit. capacity on the Central and North Coast Lines. Because of the time factor involved in New locomotives and rolling-stock will building the new lines and delivery of the have to be purchased if the department is rolling-stock, it is expected that the haulage to effectively haul the 3 000 000 tonnes of of coal from the Gregory Mine will not coal annually. commence until mid-1979. The additional rolling-stock will comprise 1'he actual revenue which will be derived 18 91.8-tonne diesel-electric locomotives, from these new lines will vary according to 374 bottom dump hopper coal wagons and the movement of each of the escalation com­ five sets of Locotrol equipment-all costing ponents of the freight rate. an estimated $27,340,000. These two branch lines are being built Railing of coal from Gregory and from specifically for the haulage of coal, but in Koorilgah, which handles the Cook and determining the probable revenue to flow Leichhardt deposits, will be achieved by from this rail traffic, the total length of the utilising unit trains each of 100 71-tonne haul involved must be taken into considera­ wagons. tion-in other words, from the Gregory Mine Each train will have a net capacity of over the new Gregory line to the Central about 5 400 tonnes and will be hauled by Line, then to Callemondah by way of the five locomotives to Olinton Estate, where existing Central and North Coast Lines, and they will be unloaded through the bottom then from Callemondah over the other new dump unloading installation to be provided section of track to Clinton Estate. by the company in association with the Although coal will be hauled over the Gladstone Ha11bour Board. section of line from Callemondah to Clinton The proposed railway connection requires Estate from both Gregory and Koorilgah, the construction of a major rail bridge over the extra revenue will result only from the the McKenzie River together with a number coal hauled from Gregory as the coal from Railway Proposal [5 APRIL 1977] Railway Proposal 2881

Koorilgah is being railed under an existing Mining Company, which we all know is agreement with the Queensland Coal Mining a subsidiary of Broken Hill Pty. Ltd. They Co. are the people who will be doing the min­ The probable additional revenue to come ing at the Gregory Mine, although the from the 3 000 000 tonnes of coal each year Queensland Coal Mining Co. Ltd. has applied will be $24,000,000. for the mining lease. Working expenses calculated in terms of The construction will comprise a spur line the new sections of line only between into a mining area from existing trackage, Gregory and the junction with the Central and another spur on the Gladstone end into Line and the section of line from Callemon­ the Clinton Industrial Estate, which is situ­ dah to the unloading installation at Clinton ated on Crown land and has been developed Estate are estimated to be $1,900,000 per by the Department of Commercial and Indus­ annum for the transport of the 3 000 000 trial Development. Loading and unloading tonnes of coal, from Gregory to the junction operations will take place there. I am 'A>ith h'le Central Line and 3 800 000 tonnes sure that the honourable member for Port annually from Callemondah to Clinton Curtis will outline the advantages to be Estate. gained by unloading on that side of town, how pollution problems will be affected, and As well as the working expenses for the how other difficulties will be surmounted by two branch lines, there will be other expenses the facilities being placed in that locality. associated with the haul over the Central and North Coast Lines. The 67.9 km of line on the Gregory end and the 7.7 km on the Gladstone end will The Dampier ~f,ining Co. Ltd. hopes to be additional trackage in the Queensland complete negotiations for long-term sales con­ Government Railways. The security deposit, tracts at an early date. Naturally, these which is not set out specifically, will be negotiations are essential before the company available to the commissioner for constructing can give the project its final seal of approval. the new railway and acquiring rolling-stock. Likewise, the conclusion of an agreement It is noted also that a contribution is to between the company and the Queensland be made by the company through a security Government Railways is dependent upon the deposit towards the upgrading of the Central satisfactory negotiation of long-term sales and North Coast Lines as well as the pro­ contmcts. vision of marshalling yards and diesel and A key factor in the successful negotiations wagon service facilities at the Callemondah will be the knowledge that the construction end. I note further that the additional loco­ and provision of railway facilities has been motives and rolling-stock required will approved by this ParLiament. I therefore include 18 90-tonne diesel-electrics. I again commend this motion to honourable mem­ seek an assurance that tenders for those bers. be let to Queensland companies. I trust that, in view of the information provided Mr. JONES (Cairns) (5.6 p.m.): The report to me on the last occasion when a motion as presented to Parliament and outlined by of this type was before the Committee, the the- Minister for Transport concerning the order for these 18 locomotives will not be proposed railway connection from the exist­ placed overseas. ing trackage at Rangal to Tolmies Siding and to Gregory Mine, and from Callemondah Obviously, the successful operation of the to Clinton Estate, has been perused by the Gregory Mine will depend on this railway Opposition in the short period since it was connection. I trust that from the facilities tabled. The Opposition supports the provided benefits will accrue to the Railway proposal. Department and the community of the State; that it will not only assist in the development I know that the honourable member for of the State but also make a contribution Port Curtis will welcome the capital invest­ towards better working conditions for railway ment of some $50,000,000 in his area. As men generally; and that the transport of this outlined by the Minister, it depends on cer­ 3 000 000 tonnes per annum will advance the tain propositions and agreements 'between prospects of the Railway Department's becom­ the companies involved and the Railway ing profitable. I think the Minister said that Department. It was pleasing to hear the the exploitation of this 79 000 000-tonne Minister say that this will be enhanced by reserve will begin in mid-1979. the approval of this motion by Parliament. I am sure that the honourable member for We entirely support the proposal. Port Curtis will detail the local effects of the proposed linkage on employment oppor­ Mr. PREST (Port Curtis) (5.12 p.m.): I tunities and its effect on instrumentalities such join with the honourable member for Cairns as the local harbour board. in supporting this motion. Members of the Opposition are very pleased that there is to A perusal of the report indicates that be further development of the coal-mining B.H.P. has compiled the preliminary infor­ industry in Central Queensland. The benefit mation on the new railway and has pre­ from this development will be felt not only pared the plan section, books of reference in the area of the mine itself but also in and so on, which have been tabled, to meet other Central Queensland areas such as the sublease requirements by the Dampier Gladstone. 93 2882 Railway Proposal (5 APRIL 1977] Traffic Acts Amendment Bill

We are very pleased with the proposal Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes-Min­ put up by the commissioner. Everything has ister for Transport) (5.17 p.m.), in reply: I been covered in it. We know Mr. Goldston thank the honourable members for Cairns for what he has learnt and achieved in and Port Curtis for their support of the Central Queensland. No person in Queens­ motion. I thank the honourable member for land is better suited to make this report to Port Curtis for his kind remarks about both Parliament. The spur line of 67.9 kilometres the Commissioner for Railways (Mr. from Tolmies Siding to the Gregory Mine Goldston) and the railway workers. As both will be of great advantage to Central of those honourable members would know, Queensland. It will take up some of the support coming from people like them will unemployed in that area. The construction be appreciated by all railwaymen. of the 564-metre bridge over the McKenzie Motion (Mr. Hooper) agreed to. River will also create employment. Resolution reported and agreed to. We know that Central Queensland Mines have for a long period been struggling to meet their coal requirements. It is very TRAFFIC ACTS AMENDMENT BILL pleasing to see rthat, as well as getting 800 000 tonnes a year out of ,the Cook and INITIATION IN COMMITTEE Leichhardt mines, 3 000 000 tonnes a year will be produced at the Gregory Mine. The (Mr. Row, Hinchinbrook, in the chair) cartage of that amount of coal will in itseU Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes­ put a lot of pressure on the Railway Depart­ Minister for Transport) (5.20 p.m.): I ask ment. However, we are sure that it can and permission to move the motion m an will be done, because the men at the top amended form. are aware of the problems that will be created. (Leave granted.) A lot of job opportunities will be created Hon. K. W. HOOPER: I move- from the requirement for 374 hopper-type "That a Bill be introduced to amend the wagons, 18 diesel-electric locomotives and Traffic Act 1949-1975 and the Traffic Act five sets of locotrol equipment. We sincerely Amendment Act 1974, each in certain par­ hope, as the honourable member for Cairns ticulars and to construe certain evidentiary said, that a lot of the work will be done certificates." in Australia and, in particular, in Queensland. Honourable members will be aware of a From Callemondah to Clinton Estate will technicality which has arisen in connection be a very big industrial area, as we all know, with the use of the word "per" in a certificate and it is very pleasing to hear that this pro­ of concentration of alcohol in the blood, posal provides for bringing marshalling and whereas the relevant section of the Traffic dieselling services to that area also. For Act refers to the word "to". The Act pro­ quite a period it has been the desire of the vides for the evidence of the number of Gladstone Harbour Board to export coal from milligrams of alcohol to 100 millilitres of the Clinton Estate area because in doing so blood, whereas certificates in this regard refer the dust pollution from the coal will be to a number of milligrams per 100 millilitres taken from the south-easterly side of the of blood. As a layman, of course. it is diffi­ town to the north-westerly side. This in itself cult to see the difference and, in fact, in the will be a great benefit. We sincerely hope intention of the Legislature there is no differ­ that over a period not only B.H.P. or Dam­ pier but also some of the other coal exporters, ence. But, in order to resolve any doubt, the such as Thiess Peabody Mitsui and Utah, Bill will make the position clear. which export coal through Gladstone will use In case any previous convictions fol- drink­ the Clinton Estate area because this would drivina are in doubt because of the form of make Gladstone a much cleaner town and certifi;ate used to obtain those convictions, make life much more pleasant in the beach the Bill provides that certificates used in the area that we had some years ago. In addi­ past shall be deemed to conform with the tion, we suffer noise pollution from the trains, Traffic Act and therefore it has the effect of which is understandable. If these problems validating those previous convictions. The will be overcome by this proposal in the continual resort to technicalities in defending long term, Gladstone will reap great benefit cases of drink-driving against all the weight from it. of other evidence is a matter of concern, bLtt We have no hesitation in giving our if this Parliament is to give guidance to the approval to this proposal. It will increase the courts as to the spirit and intention of the revenue of the Railway Department and will law for its proper implementation, then from create employment in that service. Overall time to time amendments are unavoidably the railwaymen do a very good job. They necessary. work long hours. It is pleasing that once The Bill also makes provision for a pro­ again the tonnage will be increased greatly. cedure to overcome the need for the attend­ The Gregory Mine has a capacity of ance of an arresting police officer at the 75 000 000 tonnes so that its existence for initial hearing of a drink-driving charge. As the next 25 years will be wonderful. the law stands at present, the arresting police I say once again that the Opposition officer must be present at the initial hearing agrees with the proposal. of a charge for an offence of drink-driving, Traffic Acts [5 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill 2883

even though a plea of "guilty" could be in regard to the supply of accident informa­ entered or a remand sought by the defendant tion from official records similar to that on that occasion. presently afforded the Commissioner of In Brisbane, for example, a considerable Police, and the updating of the definition of number of persons would be required to "vessel"· under the Act to include "air appear the next morning at court consequent cushion vehicle", which is a modern devel­ upon an arrest for drink-driving the preced­ opment of transport. ing evening. This results in a number of The BiJ.l is a necessary one to overcome police officers also being required often in some of the problems that have arisen, either off duty hours to be present at the courts in technically or administratively, in the imple­ order that they might give preliminary evi­ mentation of our drink-driving laws, apart dence if any one of the persons arrested by from the other minor amendments. I com­ them and released on recognizance or bail mend this Bill to the Committee. does not appear to answer the chara-e ao-ainst him. This is necessary in order that"the "court Mr. JONES (Cairns) (5.27 p.m.): In intro­ might consider the question of estreatment of ducing this measure, the Minister for Trans­ recognizance, forfeiture of bail or the issue port said that the Traffic Act mirrors the of a warrant for arrest at the initial hearing. changes that are occurring in our society However, experience has shown that of the today. The decision of a magistrate at the number of persons who are required to Holland Park Magistrates Court in relation appear at the initial hearing, those who do to a blood alcohol certificate caused a very not personally do so would be very small. late amendment to this Bill, which has The attendance of the arresting police officer probably delayed its introduction untH this on all occasions, for what is o-enerally a stage of the session. It is rather interesting routine initial hearing, on the off ~hance that to note that the magistrate dismissed a one or more of the persons charged may not charge on the ground that the blood alcohol personally attend, is not considered to be certificate did not comply with the strict justified. terms laid down in 'the Traffic Act. He upheld a defence argument that the Act Adequate safeguards are provided to ensure contained the phrase "milligrams of alcohol that a warrant is not issued for the arrest of to 100 millilitres of blood" whereas the a defendant or an order made for estreatment wording on the certificate was "milligrams of a recognizance or forfeiture of bail unless of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood". The th~ court is satisfied that there is suffi.cient Minister said that this measure will clarify ev1dence for this purpose. the point and will in faot validate previous Honourabl~ members will appreciate that it convictions which have been in doubt because could be sa1d of the Traffic Act that it of this technical point. mirrors the changes that are occurrino- in our No doubt the .Jegality of this new pro­ society today in many areas of int~rest to vision will be determined by ·the courts and the community. It wiJJ be recalled in this in due course we will be back again debating connection that the Honourable the Minister sections 16 and 16A of the Traffic Act. It for _Justice and Attorney-General has already seems to me that this new definition will lr:d.Icated that. the law relating to evidence in be a further ground for argument between CIVIl proceedmgs is being updated to take lawyers. account of present-day requirements. Simi­ larly, . this Biii will remove a statutory The other point raised by the Minister in ~mp~d!ment to the admissibility of evidence relation to the Act was the statutory impedi­ 111 c1v1l proceedings arising from accidents­ ment to the admissability of blood alcohol of the providing of a specimen of breath or certificates as evidence in civil proceedings blood _under the Ac~ and of the result of the arising from accidents. I suppose that is analysis of the spec1men. commendable in that certificates which were not previously admissable may now be This would then leave the question of the admissable. admissibility of such evidence to the court of civil jurisdiction, which is the proper place The final point mentioned by the Minister where questions of this nature should be was the updating of the definition of resolved, and the admissibility and the "vessel" under the Act to include air-cushion cogency of any evidence, including that of a vehicles. I thought that had been done breath analysis or blood analysis certificate already. Was that under the Carriage of determined according to law, having regard Goods by Land (Carriers' Liabilities) Act? to the facts before the court. In the interest of justice, the court should not be fettered in Mr. K. W. Hooper: There was a special any way in its determination of any matter. Act, if you remember. The removal of the impediment will avoid any conflict that might arise in relation to the Mr. JONES: I remember debating the question of air-cushion vehicles running proof of a conviction as evidence of relevant between Brisbane and the Gold Coast and matters in civil proceedings based on the what would happen if they had to cross the same facts relevant to such conviction. right-of-way of a railway line. The other amendments are of a minor nature dealing with the question of the pro­ Mr. K. W. Hooper: It covered only that tection of the Commissioner for Transport particular position. 2884 Traffic Acts [5 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill

Mr. JONES: It was not included in the Mr. JON.ES: We are discussing the Traffic Traffic Act. Act and I think it is rather important to poi~t out that accidents may occur !JJ:' defau.lt A couple of points relative to breathalysers in such circumstances. The Mm1ster, m have arisen over a period. One is the association with the Minister for Local Gov­ fundamental premise of the police applying ernment and Main Roads, should be examin­ the breathalyser test to people who had not ing these new procedures. The warrant actually committed a breach of .the Tra!fic should not be withdrawn, particularly in busy Act. I recall having debated th1s questron thoroughfares. I am speaking in the interests over a long period-! think it was raised as of road safety and of saving life. far back as 1969-and I thought that the problem of the motorist being pulled up I have noticed that some zebra crossings although not being observed to be in breach and marked crossings in the vicinity of schools of the Act had been overcome. A number have been withdrawn. This has occurred at of innocent people were being pulled up at the Gordonvale State School and at the St. the roadside and subjected to a breatha1yser Francis Xavier School in Alfred Street, test when in fact they had not infringed the Cairns. Admittedly school crossings may Act. A public debate took place on !he be used by children only once, twice or question of over-zealous . police harass!ng three times a day. Nevertheless that is not innocent people, from whrch the suggestion sufficient reason for withdrawing warrants of random breath tests arose. I hope the from those crossings. This is a matter that implementation of that suggestion has never the Minister in charge of road safety should been contemplated. be looking at. It is one that is brought The mention of random breath tests brings forward from time to time by the public. to mind something that I saw on television I realise that the installation of school recently and comment in the Press about crossings depends on traffic counts and certain alcometers. Apparently this is being used other requirements being met. But I do overseas as a self-determining factor, and I not think school crossings cause a great deal think the question should exercise our minds of inconvenience to motorists. "Slow down" as to whether its availability would assist in signs are erected near schools, so I do not decreasing the incidence of drink-driving and see that a motorist suffers a disadvantage whether the Government should facilitate its by having to stop at a pedestrian crossing introduction. It has been stated that publicans near a school. The advantages of pedestrian and the Licensed Victuallers Association are crossings far outweigh the disadvantages. The not averse to having machines of this type death of a child on a road near a school on their premises. By inserting a 20c piece, is a tragedy that we can ill afford. I am apparently, one can get an indication of the opposed to interference with pedestrian cross­ degree to which one is affected by alcohol. ings near schools. In fact, all school cross­ I suppose there is ground for argument as ings should be clearly marked zebra crossings. to whether such machines should be intro­ The traffic count requirement should be duced into hotels or whether there is any abolished. The volume of traffic, no matter legal restriction in Queensland on having how small, near a school should not deter­ them in licensed restaurants and other mine whether or not a crossing is installed licensed premises Personally, I do not see near it. any reason why machines of this type should not be available to people wishing to use Recently I read of the painting of signs them as vending machines. They might at on roadways. Such signs as "School crossing least give people a guide and be of some ahead", "Give way" and "Rail crossing assistance to those who over-indulge in ahead" are painted so that they can be easily alcohol. read by the oncoming motorist. Instead of Of course, the Bill has not yet been pr·inted having his attention distracted by signposts and we do not know what its exact wording at the side of the road he has his attention will be, so I shall leave further discussion till drawn to the roadway ahead of him. At the second reading. However, I shall take the one stage speed limits were painted in large opportunity of mentioning another matter figures on the roadway, particularly in areas related to the Traffic Act. where speed limits change. In Britain expen­ sive roadside signs are being torn down A great deal of public debate has taken and replaced by signs painted on the road­ place on the recent amendments to the way. As I say, such roadway signs focus the uniform traffic code relative to pedestrian attention of the driver on the road instead crossings, particularly crossings that have of distracting him as roadside signs do. been in use for some considerable time and the warrant for which is now being with­ Roadway signs could be painted near inter­ drawn. I instance the small town of Gordon­ sections. I believe that in Great Britain vale, where pedestrian cross•ings in the cen­ double solid white lines mean that opposing tral business area have been painted out. traffic has priority or that visibility is bad so This has caused a good deal of confusion and that motorists should stop before entering could result in accidents occurring while and that double broken lines mean that people adapt themselves to the new condi­ traffic on the intersecting road has priority, tions. that visibility is good and that the motorist should slow down before entering. Such Mr:. Frawley interjected. indicators are being used in a transitional Traffic Acts [5 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill 2885

period in conjunction with uniform road or "to" in the wording describing the num­ markings and pavement markings. They ber of milligrams of alcohol content in the assist the flow of traffic and help prevent blood. Obviously that needed cleaning up. accidents. Furthermore, their cost is minimal. It would be quite improper if people were to Investigations into the durability of paint have escape being dealt with under the law because found a type of paint that can withstand a of the misuse of one small word in a cer­ heavy volume of traffic. If it is working in tificate, so the Minister has quite properly Britain I see no reason why it cannot be proposed an amendment to that Bill. used on Queensland roads. Obviously it resists traffic and weather for long periods. The amendment to which I wish to devote The motorists have been accustomed to signs. my time is that which, frankly, relates to In a transition period they could be used random breath tests. It is a matter that I in conjunction with the new warning signs raised in Parliament several months ago, and phased out later. In the interests of when I related how a handful of unscrup­ road safety this matter should be brought ulous police officers were conducting ran­ to the attention of the Australian Transport dom breath tests on the flimsiest excuses, Advisory Council when it next meets. contrary to the spirit of the Government's policy on this matter. I said then that this Free copies of the Queensland Traffic was done by those officers as a bounty­ Code handbook should be more readily hunting exercise, to secure for themselves available to motorists. I suggest that they overtime payments for appearances in court be on issue at police stations and service the following morning. Honourable mem­ stations. I do not think people would bers will recall my complaints on that exploit the situation by asking for a free occasion. handbook whenever they visited a service station. But even if they did so it might Since I made that speech, which was cause them to read the book more often recorded in the Press at the time, I have and thus become more aware of our traffic personally received a number of complaints code. If the book were more readily from constituents in my electorate indicating available, the chances of its being read would that the position has not changed. In recent be increased and the traffic code would be months at least three other members of better understood. I have received numer­ Parliament have been under pressure from ous complaints from motorists and people in their constituents to have the matter remedied. the transport industry about the unavail­ I had supposed, when I raised .the matter ability of this book. Ignorance of traffic several months ago, that it could !have been regulations is not an excuse under ·the law. attended to administratively. I know that an The Government should not be shown to be attempt was made to do just that. However, a party to enhancing ignorance. The avail­ because of the difficulty of supervision of ability of the booklet is of paramount officers working on their own or in pairs importance. If it is in short supply, we can on late shifts, that was not successful. only condemn the department responsible. If Therefore, some further action was neces­ i~ is. a matter of cost, -the cost of the pub­ licatiOn should be balanced against the lives sitated-an amendmenrt to the Traffic Act­ that may be saved. The booklet should be to remove the profit motive. available on demand. What happens-and I related on a previous occasion how it happened to me--is that a The Opposition will study the provlS!ons handful of officers working in patrol cars in in the Bill. I did not quite catch the sig­ the city on late shift stop motorists and say, nificance of the certificates in civil actions. "Excuse me, sir, but your tail-light is We will study the relevant provision and we flickering.", or, "The light above your will raise this and other matters in detail number-plate seems to have something wrong at the second-reading stage. with it.", or, "You did not indicate your intention of changing lanes." This sort of Mr. LANE (Merthyr) (5.43 p.m.): I am thing happens on deserted roads late at happy to support this legislation which is night. When the driver alights from his car, designed to implement several useful pro­ the police say, "While you are here, please cedures. The items contained in the legis­ blow into this bag." Of course, they impose lation when the Bill first came before us a their own random breath tests by this method couple of weeks ago relate substantially to on :the flimsiest of excuses, in a manner quite machinery matters and will facilitate several contrary to the Government's policy and procedures in .the cour.ts. The provision direction. referred to by the Minister concerning the admissibility of certificates in civil proceed­ The Queensland Government has made it ings could well slide through without creating very clear that it is opposed to random much interest. However, a couple of other breath tests-and on very good grounds. It matters have been raised which could well is important to ensure that the civil liberties be controversial or create greater public of the public at large are not interfered with. interest. The Government takes the view, I know, that it will not have the public at large subjected I refer :firstly to •the amendment which puts to random breath tests in order to secure a beyond doubt the words that were used in few convictions by casting a wide net in this certificates. I refer to the words "per" way. 2886 Traffic Acts [5 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill

I agree with this proposal. However, as Also the department will be saved a large I related, a small group-and I am happy amount in overtime payments, because to be able to say that it has been just a officers will not be required to appear in handful of police officers, most of whom are court needlessly. well known around the courts-have been It could be thought that, as a former getting around this Government policy and serving member of the Police Force, I might Government direction by finding any flimsy make a lot of enemies with this proposal. excuse to impose a breath test. I know that I inform honourable members that I have in one. mo!lth alone-January this year­ received complaints about this practice from somethmg like 30 breath tests conducted in not only the citizenry but also police officers. the Valley area produced negative results when the people apprehended blew into the Mr. Moore: It puts the police in bad alcotest equipment. odour. Mr. Moore: You are talking about bounty Mr. LANE: It does. hunters. In fact, it was a very responsible police Mr. LANE: That is what they are. Those officer who suggested to me how the Traffic are the words I used when last I spoke. Act could be amended to achieve this end. Following the arrests made in this I imagine I would have been approached random way, the police officers are then by as many as 20 police officers over the required under section 16 (9) (a) (ii) of past few months who have said, "We are the Traffic Act to appear in court the next very sorry that this practice goes on. Whilst mor~ing on . the off-chance that they are section 16 (9) (a) (ii) remains in its present required to give sworn evidence of the arrest form, greed will unfortunately persist in a so that, in the event of the non-appearance few police officers and this practice will con­ of a defendant, a warrant can be issued. tinue. We think you should do some­ If 100 arrests have been made for commit­ thing about it." The Bill will find favour ting the ~ffence _of being in charge of a with most police officers who have never motor vehicle whilst under the influence of approved of this practice and will be pleased alcohol, possibly 100 police officers would to see the passage of this amendment. I have. to a~pear i~ court the next morning am happy to have been its initiator in this to g1ve ev1dence 1f the defendants did not Parliament. ~ppear. Most defendants do appear and it Mr. DEAN (Sandgate) (5.56 p.m.): I am Is probably only one in several hundred one who has no compassion whatever for who .does. not _appear to face the charge and forfeits his ba1!. So that in only one case the drink-driver. In fact, I think he should out of several hundred would the police be referred to as a drink-driver murderer. officer be required to give sworn evidence My motto, like that of many others, is of arrest. simply this: if you drink, don't drive. The Bill will remove the statutory require­ What is now being corrected is a legal ment of the police officer being in court technicality, another loophole that the the next morning. In future there will be drink-driver has been able to use to beat no need for strict supervision of how police the law. Some clever barrister or solicitor officers conducted themselves the night before. has found this loophole, which should never The profit motive or the bounty of 3 hours' have been there in the first place. I cannot overtime (roughly $20) will not be involved. understand how deficiencies of this type can It is only a handful of police who have creep into Bills that are drafted by exper­ be.en dou~ling their salaries by collecting ienced and competent draftsmen. It is quite this overtime on a regular basis. As it beyond my understanding. Although I am became apparent to me over recent months not one to go to extremes of suspicion, some­ !hat this practice could not be stamped out times one might be suspicious of •the way in m any other way, I approached the Minister which they seem to creep into legislation. and requested this amendment and he was happy to <;c~ept it. I am pleased to say Drink-driving is increasing rather than that the M1mster for Police saw the wisdom decreasing. Now that Sunday drinking is of it and was happy to agree. That is how permitted, one sees very many people at it has come before Parliament. hotels at midday when they should be home having lunch. When the hotels close, they Other benefits flow from the Bill. In go away armed with bottles to tide them over some cases persons do not appear in court till the next session. I hope the new legislation through no fault of their own. They could is to have retrospective effect on fines that be ill or, at the last minute, find that have been imposed under ·the legislation as it they have no transport available. The Bill presently stands. No protection whatever will give them 24 hours' grace to appear should be given to drink-drivers. before a warrant is issued. The 24 hours' grace is a concession or liberty which could I am constantly dismayed by decisions well be extended. These cases do not involve given by courts in drink-driving cases. Tne criminals or people who normally abscond; drink-driver is usually heavily fined and in usually they involve normal, average citi­ many cases his licence is suspended. But the zens \'.'ho have had one drink too many damage that he has caused to the vehicle of and whose breath registered above the per­ another person seems to be of secondary mitted level. importance. The drink-driver pays the fine Traffic Acts [5 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill 2887

to protect his freedom. I know of a case could be my wife, my child or one of my concerning a woman whose car was smashed grandchildren. So I give the Bill my whole­ completely and who obtained a judgment for hearted support. damages but could recover nothing because I did read of the recent case in the the person who caused the damage had no Holland Park Magistrates Court where a money to pay. People who cause damage and magistrate found that a blood alcohol cer­ have no money to pay for it therefore go tificate did not comply strictly with the Act. scat free. I do not think this should be The blood alcohol concentration of the permitted. defendant, who appealed, was stated to be I am firmly of the opinion that the fine 108 milligrams of alcohol per 100 millilitres imposed for drink-driving and the amount of blood. That is fairly interesting, because awarded in respect of damage or injury on 10 January this year Neil Kane, the sec­ should be given equal priority. If the drink­ retary of the Electrical Trades Union and driver cannot pay, he should go to gaol. senior vice-president of the Q.C.E. was I know of a woman in the Bald Hills area booked for being drunk in charge of a who has gone absolutely scot-free and is motor vehicle and the alcohol concentration laughing up her sleeve at the law. She in his blood was 140 mg of alcohol per 100 ml paid a fine of $300 so that she could not be of blood, so I hope he does not try to get picked up and locked up, but the woman out of that by appealing. whose vehicle was completely wrecked by ME. Houston: Why pick him? the action of the other woman has been able to get nothing, although she received Mr. FRAWLEY: Because he is a no-good a court judgment in her favour, because the drunken bum; that is why. A lot of one who caused the damage has no money influence was used by Bul11:on of the Printing left. and K~ndred Industries Union to stop this case being publicised in "The Courier-Mail". Mr. Moore: How could a person pay if The damage to Kane's car was estimated at he was in gaol? $700 and the repairs were paid for by the Electrical Trades Union. That is how good Mr. DEAN: He should not have his free­ he is, this senior vice-president of the Q.C.E. dom. and secretary of the Electrical Trades Union! Random breath-testing was mentioned. I have no fear of any policeman pulling me The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. up and submitting me to such a test. Police Kaus): Order! The honourable member will can do that to me any time they like, and come back to the Bill. I think that any person who drives a car should feel the same way. I do not think Mr. FRAWLEY: I am just saying that it that the Traffic Act is sufficiently enforced. is shocking to think that he had 140 mg of The drink-driver is given too much latitude alcohol per 100 ml of blood. He was well and protection under the law. He is given and truly drunk; there is no doubt about it. too much freedom to kill other people. Personally, I should like to see random Mr. Hinze: Is that what you call plas­ breath-testing extended. tered? Mr. Moore: Hang them by the thumbs, Mr. FRAWLEY: Yes. "The Courier-Mail" too? was not game to print the facts, because it was threatened. Mr. DEAN: I know that what I am say­ I have heard that on the same night or at ing certainly irks some people because they about the same time John Atherton also was know that at times they have been guilty booked. His case was heard in a special of some offences and are lucky to have night court and he got out of it. Then the escaped the law. However, I agree with anions threatened "The Courier-Mail" that if the proposed amendment. it d!d not keep Kane's name out of the paper they would publicise John Atherton's [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] case. That is the information I have been given. I do not know whether it is true or Mr. FRAWLEY (Murrumba) (7.15 p.m.): false, but the information came to me on I have a great deal of pleasure in supporting pretty good authority. It just shows some of the Minister for Transport in his introduction the things people do to get out of these of this Bill to amend the Traffic Act. I would drink-driving charges. like to explain at the outset that I am not considered a wowser in my electorate. I have As I said before, the Minister is to be a drink occas,ionally and I do not mind people commended for introducing this Bill. I sin­ drinking provided that by their drinking they cerely hope that its provisions are retrospec­ do not interfere with the rights of others. tive and that nobody appeals on this tech­ And I state right now that I have no sym­ nical point and gets out of a charge, because pathy with anybody who is booked for driv­ as far as I am concerned anybody convicted ing while under the influence of alcohol. of driving while under the influence has to As far as I am concerned, if they are under stand up and face the music. If people want the influence and are driving a car they are to drink and drive they should face the con­ potential murderers, and the person they kill sequences when the time comes and not try 2888 Traffic Acts Amendment Bill [5 APRIL 1977] Local Government, &c., Bill

to crawl out of it like big carpet snakes. I promised that I would speak for only a Some of these drunks will go to any lengths few minutes on this important amendment to avoid their punishment. of the Traffic Act. I really beHeve that it will not be long Mr. Yewdale: It has been a marvellous before we will have to introduce a test of address. some kind which will determine whether people are under the influence of marijuana Mr. FRAWLEY: It has not been too bad. when driving a motor vehicle. Several sur­ I have done the job that I set out to do, any­ veys have been conducted on this in the way, and I congratulate the Minister for United States and I think a test of this kind bringing the Bill forward. should be included in a future amendment of Hon. K. W. HOOPER (Greenslopes­ the Traffic Act. A survey of 710 accidents Minister for Transport) (7.22 p.m.), in reply: in America showed that 38 per cent of people involved in them were driving under I thank honourable members for their con­ the influence of marijuana. A lot of surveys ributions to the debate. The honourable have been conducted into accidents ,in member for Cairns indicated his support for Canada, too, and they disclosed that many the legislation. of the drivers involved were under the The honourable member for Merthyr men­ influence of marijuana. I would say that as tioned to the Committee that he was respon­ the use of marijuana expands in Australia and sible for bringing to my notice the need for higher doses are taken, the road toll will one of these amendments and requesting that certainly increase. I think that as the use it be included in the Bill. That is quite true; of marijuana and other drugs increases the he did, and I pay him credit for it. incidence of criminal offences will increase The honourable member for Sandgate, as also. Much of the information about mari­ always, was consistent in his remarks about juana that has been made available to the drink-driving. He is totally opposed to it, public, including claims that it is acbsolutely and he supports the legislation. safe, is a lot of hogwash. In my electorate I even had the experience of one school­ The honourable member for Murrumba, teacher bringing a way-out teacher from who has just resumed his seat, offered advice Sandgate to tell the parents and citizens' about the taking of drugs, particularly association that there was nothing wrong with marijuana, and certainly we will examine smoking marijuana; it was safer than taking very closely the advice he has given us. alcohol. That is an absolute lie, because these tests in America have proved con­ I inform honourable members that I will clusively that marijuana contributes greatly to reply at the second reading to their various road accidents. The Minis,ter is listening to remarks. I hope that my voice will be a what I am saying, and I hope that he takes little better then. I commend the motion to it into consideration and confers with the the Committee. Minister for Health to see whether a simple Motion (Mr. Hooper) agreed to. test can be devised to determine whether people are driving under the influence of Resolution reported. marijuana. If they are, they are potential killers and much more dangerous than people FIRST READING driving under the influence of alcohol. There is no doubt that, when combined with Bill presented and, on motion Oti Mr. alcohol, marijuana really sends a person off Hooper, read a first time. the deep end. In New South Wales, Neville Wran and his Government intend to decriminalise the LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT use of marijuana, and the proposal that the AMENDMENT BILL smoking of marijuana be legalised has been INITIATION IN COMMITTEE put forward on several occasions at A.L.P. conferences in this State. I think it is a (Mr. Kaus, Mansfield, in the chair) shoc.king indictment on any political party Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister for It to attempt to do anything like that. If for Local Government and Main Roads) the par_ty that I represent, the National Party, (7.25 p.m.): I move- ever tned to legalise the use of marijuana, it would have my resignation in five minutes, "That a Bill be introduced to amend and I stand by what I say on that. the Local Government Act 1936-1976 in certain particulars." Mr. Prest: They might take you up on it. This Bill is essentially in two main parts. One deals with updating the Local Govern­ Mr. FRAWLEY: They can if they want ment Act to take into account recent changes to, but I do not believe that the National in State Mining Regulations, as they affect Party would ever do that. That is why I am local authority rating. The second deals a member of it. I believe that it stands for with councils' powers in respect of declaring everything that is good and decent in this benefited areas for rating purposes, the levy­ country. I certainly will never be involved in ing of separate rates in these areas for any move to legalise the use of marijuana. specific purposes-among other things, to Local Government Act [5 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill 2889 correct apparent or emerging rating anomalies Honourable members will note that it is -and clarifications of town-planning pro­ proposed to amend the provisions of the visions affecting non-conforming land uses and Act dealing with minimum rate levies on objections relating to them. mining claims. At present, a local authority Honourable members will recall that recent has power to determine that the minimum regulations under the Mining Act deleted general rate payable on special gem claims, references to restricted mining claims and restricted mining claims, and alluvial mineral special gem claims, and references to alluvial claims will be different from the minimum mineral claims were repealed previously. general rate payable on other land. As These regulations now provide for one type previously stated, the above types of claim of mining claim only, and in terms of the are no longer granted by the Mines Depart­ Local Government Act such a claim would ment, and the general term "claim" is now not be rateable. The consequences of this used to describe these forms of tenure. This would be obvious to members. The simpli­ particular amendment will provide that a fication and consolidation of the Mining local authority may levy a different minimum Regulations has made necessary this com­ general rate in respect of mining claims. plementary legislation, to restore local author­ In certain cases, a small mining lease may ities' capacity to rate the particular types be taken out in lieu of a claim and, to of mining claims referred to. preserve uniformity of rating, the Bill pro­ This legislation is a result of discussions vides that a local authority may determine between officers of the Department of Local a different minimum general rate in respect Government and the Department of Mines, to these types of leases, subject to the fol­ and will have the effect of: lowing conditions:- ( l) Validating rates levied during the cur­ (A) The leases must not exceed 2 hectares rent financial year on restricted mining in area (for mining purposes) or 4 claims, alluvial mineral claims and hectares in area (for treatment or other special gem claims; purposes); and ( 2) Declaring claims under the Mining Act (B) The leases must be situated in areas rateable; declared by the Governor in Council ( 3) Determining valuations of claims; to be areas in which a local authority may determine a minimum general rate ( 4) Enabling rateable value of claims to be on mining leases-for example, the gem adjusted in future by the Governor in fields area of the Shire of Emerald. Council by Order in Council; (5) Having current provisions relating to The provisions of the Local Government Act minimum general rates applied to claims relating to the valuation of mining claim~ under the Mining Act; and for rating purposes are proposed to be amended because the Mines Department has (6) Extending the definition of an "owner" discontinued the granting of certain types of to include the holder or lawful occupier claims, as previously stated. The amendment of a claim under the Mining Act. in this respect provides that the rateable To expand the explanation a little-the value of claims will be related to the dimen­ definition of "owner" is amended to include sions of the claim, on the following basis:- hoiders of claims under the Mining Act. As indicated, that Act no longer provides (A) Where the dimensions do not exceed 900 for the creation of restricted mining claims, square metres, a rateable value of $150 alluvial mineral claims or special gem claims will apply; and that were previously rateable under the Local (B) In other cases, a value of $450 will Government Act-the holders of such claims apply. being deemed to be the owners for rating This method of valuing claims basically fol­ purposes. The general term "claim" is now lows the method presently used in the Act used in the Mining Act to embrace the for fixing the rateable values of the former former tenures, and the definition "owner" types of claim. As in the present law, it must be amended in the Local Government is proposed that the Governor in Council Act to include the holders of such "claims" will have power from time to time to alter so that the land concerned can continue to the amounts of these valuations by Order be rated. in Council. This is necessary to keep the Some honourable members would realise valuations in step with other valuations in that the matter is of special concern to the particular local authority area from time the gem fields area of the Shire of Emerald, to time. and the Emerald Shire Council, in fact, would suffer a significant revenue loss if Provisions of the Local Government Act :he Act is not so amended. A definition ?ealing with the definition of benefited areas, of "specified mining claim" is included. The m respect of the levy of separate rates, are term embraces claims registered under the proposed to be amended. Under the Act, a !\·fining Act and restricted mining claims, local authority now has power to make and aliuvial mineral claims and special gem levy a separate rate for a particular function claims Previously issued under the mining of local government in a benefited area laws and still in force. This definition is defined by it. An example would be the necessary in connection with the valuation making and levying of a separate rate on and rating of such claims. township lands, to defray the cost of street 2890 Local Government Act [5 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill

lighting. The amendment provides that, Mr. HINZE: Not really too fast for before making and levying a separate rate, the someone who can discern what I am saying. local authority must obtain the prior consent I would have expected the honourable mem­ of the Minister to the proposed benefited ber for Windsor to take this in quite easily. area. Mr. K. J. Hooper: What can you The consent of the Minister would be also expect? He's only a Liberal. required if the local authority desired to divide the benefited area into subdivisions, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. or to include in one subdivision lands that Row): Order! We will have one interjection are not contiguous. This amendment will at a time. allow separate rating and related benefited­ area proposals to be scrutinised before they Mr. HINZE: What, with a head like that! are implemented by local authorities. The amendment relates to the power of a The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! local authority to define a benefited area and make and levy a separate service rate to Mr. HINZE: In clause 5 (a) of the Bill cover the cost of the local authority's con­ before the Committee, the town-planning tribution to a regional electricity board provisions of the Act are proposed to be towards the expense of providing electricity altered to clarify a right to continue a use extensions to rural consumers. Such a con­ lawfully established at the time a town­ tribution is in the nature of a guarantee, planning scheme came into force, but which and the board repays the amount to the local becomes a prohibited use under an amend­ authority over a period of years. ment of the scheme. This type of situation very rarely occurs. The amendment is It has been found that, in certain cases, designed to provide that, in such circum­ lands benefiting from an extension may not stances, an owner of land has full rights to be contiguous, and the Bill provides that, continue the use that was being lawfully with the prior approval of the Minister, made of his land at the time the amendment non-contiguous lands may be included in the in question comes into force. benefited area. It also preserves the right of continuation As the separate services rate is a type of of such a use where a building on the land "separate rate" in terms of the Act, provision is destroyed by fire or where the use of the is also made for the prior consent of the building or land ceases for a period of six Minister to be obtained to the definition of months or longer. In these circumstances, a benefited area before such a rate is made the amendment clarifies that the owner of the and levied. land or building concerned will have a right to apply to the local authority for approval In clause 3 (a) of the Bill, section 21 of to recommence the use or re-erect the build­ the Local Government Act is amended to ing concerned for the purpose of resuming allow a local authority, by resolution, to the use previously carried on. If the local exempt rateable properties of a specified class authority refuses to grant such approval, the from a minimum general rate levy. It will person concerned will have a right of appeal be recalled that the Act was amended some to the Local Government Court. years ago to empower a local authority to levy a minimum general rate to defray the By clause 5 (B) of the Bill a machinery cost of making and recovering the rate, and amendment is proposed to clarify an object­ the basic costs of providing local govern­ or's right to object to town-planning pro­ mental services-the levy being imposed on posals and to provide that objections must lands that have a very low rateable value. be lodged with the clerk of the local auth­ ority concerned. The Local Government Association has drawn attention to cases where the levy of Mr. Row, I think that gives honourable a minimum general rate on a particular parcel members an insight into what this Local of land can result in an unjustifiable high Government Act Amendment Bill is all levy. An example could be where a small about, and I commend it to the Committee. road licence area is included in a farming property, and it becomes liable to the mini­ Mr. MARGINSON (Wolston) (7.36 p.m.): mum general rate because it has a separate I listened with interest when the Minister valuation, or where a small tenure exists for for Local Government and Main Roads the purpose of a pump on a watercourse. dealt with the many amendments proposed The amendment is designed to empower the in this Bill. Most of them refer to mining local authority, in its discretion, to exempt claims, and particularly to the gem fields. these classes of lands from the minimum rate It is quite obvious to me that the J.ocal levy. The granting of exemption from the authorities affected in Central Queensland minimum general rate will render the lands are anxious to obtain some finance to assist concerned liable to the normal general rate them in the provision of amenities in that levy which will be lower than the minimum. area. Because the Minister's speech was most difficult to follow at times, we will have Mr. Moore: Slow down to 60 miles an a look at those provisions when the Bill hour; you are speaking too fast. is printed. Local Government Act [5 APRIL 1977] Ameudment Bill 2891

I am not very happy at any time with five councillors whilst another division con­ sections within particular local authorities tained 318 electors who elected two coun­ being treated as benefited areas. I do not cillors, or an average of 159 electors per support the general principle. Having a member. This indicates the way in which benefited area departs from the principle that the boundaries of our local authorities and all local authorities should be responsible for divisions are being used today to keep in certain things. local government the people who support the National Party. Mr. Hinze: Did you have any benefited areas when you were a member of the I remember coming to see the late Sir council? Harold Richter when he was Minister for Local Government. With other aldermen­ Mr. MARGINSON: No. Though there not all of them Labor aldermen-! brought were many areas that did not have sewerage down a plan of the five wards in Ipswich -and it was a costly process to sewer the which had been unanimously agreed upon city-we would not have benefited areas. I by the Ipswich City Council. Four of the do not believe there should be benefited areas wards contained 5,500 people each and the for the supply of water. There are many other ward, which ran from Bundamba Creek other spheres in which the same objection is to Gailes, contained 3,200 people because we relevant. Tonight I am sure we will be considered they had a community of interest. involved in a discussion on a benefited area A few years before, that area had been taken of the Albert Shire Council. over from the Moreton Shire Council. The Minister told us point blank that we had to It seemed to me that in .the main the equalise the number of electors in each latter amendments on the Bill dealt with division. What a change of policy from problems being experienced by the Johnstone equalisation of electors in five divisions in Shire Council in North Queensland. We Ipswich to two members representing 318 will look at this very closely to see the electors in one of the divisions in Lands­ implications of the amendments being placed borough. The gerrymander is continuing in before the Parliament. the State Parliament, too. Possibly they are However, while we are dealing with copying what happened on the last occasion amendments to the Local Government Act, when Tommy Playford came here. l wish to refer to another matter. In these I turn now to the financing of local gov­ times when there is talk of gerrymanders ernment. The Grants Commission divided -about the boundaries of electorates and so among the 131 local authorities the money on-whether we are heavy-handed or not, that was given to the State. I have heard it is well to remind the Committee of two honourable members, particularly the honour­ matters that I raised recently. One relates able member for Landsborough, complain to the Redland Shire Council-and I am about the bad deals their local authorities sorry that the member for Redlands is not received. How can one full-time man work­ here, because he happens to be a councillor ing with four part-time men, as a commission, of that shire-where there is a proposal to give justice to 131 local authorities in Queens­ create a new division with a roll of 265 land in the cutting up of the Grants Commis­ electors. Three other divisions in the same sion money? It cannot possibly be done. I shire have over 3,000 voters. Although the advocate that the State should be cut into Minister said that the 265 electors were regions with full-time men who could con­ residents of the islands that were recently centrate solely on a region containing, say, brought under the control of the Redland 25 or 30 local authorities. They would have Shire Council, I cannot see the justification a much better idea of the financial require­ in 265 people forming a division and elect­ ments of those local authorities. ing a representative. I say in conclusion that we will have a We all know, too, that in that particular good look at this Bill so I ask the Minister shire council-this is fairly political, and I not to consider moving its second reading make no apology for it-although the num­ tonight. We will come back tomorrow and bers are not even, the balance is fairly close. express our thoughts on these amendments. The major party in that council at pres­ ent is making an attempt 'to maintain its Mr. YEWDALE (Rockhampton North) majority. This is one way in which I have (7.45 p.m.): The subject of local government no doubt that it will do it. With 3,687 brings to mind a host of problems close to electors in one division and 3,294 electors the people and uppermost in their minds from in another, there is no justification for having day to day. The problem that I want to 265 in yet another division. I want to impress bring to the notice of the Committee eman­ that on the Committee. There is no doubt ates from a road transportation study. It is that the National Party is using its gerry­ ironic that the Minister who is introducing mander in the boundaries and divisions of this Bill tonight is also the Minister respon­ local authorities. sible for main roads. I turn now to the Landsborough Shire Some little time ago the Main Roads Council. Part of this area is represented by Department carried out a road transportation the honourable member for Landsborough. study in Rockhampton, in particular in the At the time a councillor complained that one area of North Rockhampton for which I division contained 5,738 electors who elected am responsible. 2892 Local Government Act [5 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill

Mr. Ahern: What has that to do with the was quickly told by Main Roads Department Bill? officers, and quite correctly, that it was not within their province; it was an arterial road If Mr. YEWDALE: the honourable member development and therefore a local authority for Landsborough would keep quiet for a matter. He approached the local authority, moment he might learn something of a through the mayor of the city and then the problem concerning people in the community. town clerk, and was advised that they were If he is not concerned with people's problems, contemplating resumption of the property he should not be here. for widening of the road to fit in with the The road transportation study embraced road transportation study but they could not quite a lot of my electorate. A number of give any indication of when the work WOLild houses have to be resumed, and several have be carried out or when finance for it would already been taken over. In a joint approach be available. to the study by the local authority and the Main Roads Department, certain areas have He asked for something more positive, been defined where the roads will run, in both verbally and in writing if possible, and conjunction with the bridge that it is hoped was told by the local authority that it could will be built in the foreseeable future­ be within the next 10 years but it could not unless the Minister diverts the necessary be certain. He consulted with his solicitor finance to freeway construction in the south­ and the potential buyer. who was the third east corner of the State. potential buyer who had approached him through his solicitor, and his solicitor advised The problem as I see it arises from roads him that, because of the encumbrances on that have been designated as complementary the property as set out by the requirement of to the main highways and from resumptions the local authority for the widening of the that it seems will be made. l refer specifically road to fit in with the road transportation to the cases of two owners of homes on a study, he could not in all honesty sell the designated arterial road. In one case, main­ property to a potential buyer without indicat­ tenance or repairs had to be carried out by ing the encumbrances. The buyers were just one owner to his house. His problem was to not interested in view of the uncertainty about decide whether it would be worth while the resumption of that property. The solicitor spending money on the home. advised him accordingly and the potential buyer, as in the two previous cases, decided The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. that he would not buy the property. The Row): Order! I hope the honourable mem­ only off-the-cuff advice he could get from ber realises that he is straying a little from the local authority was to sell the house for the subject-matter of the Bill. removal. I believe that is a ridiculous state­ ment to make to a person wanting to sell Mr. YEWDALE: I am coming to my point, his property. i'vlr. Row. If you will allow me a little latitude for just a moment or two, I shall In raising this matter tonight I appeal to arrive at the very point. the Minister to have a look at the situation. I will follow the matter up in writing and The TEMPORARY CHAffiMAN: Order! have the owner himself set out his case to The honourable member will address his the Minis•ter in writing. It would seem to remarks to the subject under discussion. me that this chap is saddled with his pro­ perty. I do not know why he wants to sell, and I believe that is his business, but if he IHr. YEWDALE: I will, Mr. Row. had to leave the city tomorrow, either on transfer or for personal reasons he could The arterial roads of which I am speaking not se!I that property and unless the situation are the responsibility of the local authority. changes he may not be able to sell it for the By making that point, I think T have returned next 10 years. to the content of the Bill. The position is that one of the home owners to whom I Mr. Frawley: What's he slinging you for referred desires to sell his property. That is this? obviously his right in what we are told is a free-enterprise system. I believe that he Mr. YEWDALE: He is not slinging me should at least be given some indication from anything. Here is another inane interjection :.omeone in authority whether he can sell his from a man who just spent 10 minutes property. bucketing a trade union official. He talks through his hat every time he stands up. His He went to the Main Roads Department in greatest claim to power is kicking old ladies' the belief that the house was involved in dogs, so I think he should shut up and part of the r0ad transportation study. He listen. Local Government Act (5 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill 2893

I do not think this is reasonable. This chap from shops that are run by people who are should be given some concrete advice from an integral part of the community. If we the local authority. After consultation with permit these shopping centres to die, to go the Minister and his department, the local out of existence, we shall be destroying a authority should be able to make a positive very important part of the lives of many statement. This is only one case. I believe people in Queensland. Therefore, I make a that dozens of houses would be subject to strong plea to the Minister to give considera­ this resumption. It is an old area and many tion to including in the appropriate Act of the residents have been living there for provision for benefited parking areas in the many years. They are in the latter stages of outlying suburbs of Brisbane. their lives-some of them are pensioners­ and it seems to me that if they do not know Mr. CASEY ~Mackay) (7.56 p.m.): It what is going to happen, they will just have seems that always at this stage of the session to wait and see. They are going to have to honourable members see the sudden intro­ find alternative accommodll!tion, which will duction of a number of amendments to the probably mean the purchase of another dwell­ Local Government Act. Usually they have ing, and if they have to purchase it outside far-reaching consequences for many local this area it will mean moving to a higher­ authorities in the State. Unfortunately, when cost area or making other arrangements. one analyses them and discovers what they I have taken the opportunity to elaborate are about, one finds that they are being on this case so that the Minister will be introduced to correct a problem that a local conversant with the details. I intend to authority has experienced in its activities. follow the matter up and I hope the Minis­ In the last session, just before the Christ­ ter will take some action through his depart­ mas recess, one of the amendments intro­ ment, and the local authority in Rockhamp­ duced bv the Minister related to a super­ ton, to try to give the people living in this annuation scheme for local government area some idea of where they are going. employees. It is rather strange that, at the instigation of local authorities, the Act can Mr. LAMOND (Wynnum) (7.53 p.m.): I be amended suddenly to make changes that just want to make a short contribution to will have consequences for the ratepayers the debate. While I realise that this amend­ in local authority areas, yet a different situa­ ment does not cover the Oity of Brisbane tion arises when we want to force local Act, at one s·tage the Minister did make authorities to do something that will be reference to benefited areas and I think this beneficial for the community. In the case provision should be included in all future of the superannuation scheme, employees of amendments to either the Local Government local authorities are at a great disadvantage. Act or the City of Brisbane Act. I refer Their scheme is completely outmoded when particularly to benefited parking areas in compared with the schemes that have been suburban shopping areas. agreed to in this Chamber for the State Public Service, the Police Force, fire brigades, Today many shopping areas around Bris­ and various other local and semi-govern­ bane which have been established for many mental bodies, including one for the electricity years are gradually dying because of the industry, for which the Act was consolidated development of major shopping complexes earlier in the session. Although an instruc­ which are located away from the old estab­ tion has been issued to various local auth­ lished shopping areas. There is no way that orities in relation to the superannuation the individual shopkeeper or individual land­ scheme, they have not accepted it. They owner can possibly afford to supply adequate are deliberately holding off, and those who parking and thus compete with these major are missing out, of course, are the employees shopping complexes. We see this situation in of local authorities throughout the State. practically every one of the old established shopping areas. I want to refer particularly When the Minister introduced amend­ to one in my electorate which could be ments to the Local Government Act just further developed but is being held back before the Christmas recess, we thought that because of the inadequacy of customer park­ they may have the effect of enforcing the ing. provisions of the Act on local authorities. However, when the Opposition analysed the I would ask the Minister to give serious Bill and ascertained the full story, it found consideration to introducing an amendment that it was a deliberate effort to ensure that to the appropriate Act so that benefited park­ the format of the local authorities super­ ing areas can be declared. The chamber of annuation board remained the same for vir­ commerce in the Wynnum area recently con­ tua!ly all time. There had to be a declaration ducted an extensive survey of traffic flows. by Order in Council to keep the board in They also spoke to many people and asked office, and it was amazing to see that one them why they were drifting away from of the representatives on that board-the what is an old es•tablished shopping area. representative of the Municipal Officers' There is no doubt that shopping centres in Association-was a person who had been outly1ng suburbs of the city of Brisbane are voted out of that particular position a con­ part of the way of life of the people who siderable time ago by the executive of the live in those suburbs. They have become association. He was hoisted by his own accustomed to using the local shopping centre organisation as its representative on the super­ and to the specialised service that they receive annuation board. Instead of appointing the 2894 Local Government Act [5 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill

man who was nominated by the Municipal But suddenly, without explanation, the reg­ Officers' Association, the Minister saw fit ional councils are going to be terminated. to retain on the board the person who was This Parliament is entitled to know why this not wanted by his own association. is going to happen. Mr. Hinze: Only temporarily. We are in the last stages of this session and probably tomorrow we will go into recess Mr. CASEY: I certainly hope that the and will not meet again before 1 July, the Minister will adhere to his promise. date on which the regional councils are to be terminated. Why are these regional coun­ Mr. Hinze: There is a reason for it. cils going to be scrubbed? The local auth­ orities, which constitute the regional councils, Mr. CASEY: There seems to be a little are entitled to know. They should be told bit of mischief going on in the background. by the Government why this is happening. As soon as possible, the Municipal Officers' Is this just another secret, underhand move Association should be allowed to have on the being made by the Government to keep the superannuation board a person rightfully public unaware of what is going to happen in selected by it as its representative. After the State of Queensland? all, the Government still has on the board three other representatives, who can control Mr. PREST (Port Curtis) (8.4 p.m.): The the board as they wish, but a person who is Opposition will look closely at these amend­ truly a representative of the workers belong­ ments. Local authorities are confronted with ing to. that ass

We will be very appreciative if the Minis­ here we had the opportunity for this State ter can do anything to assist in providing at least to demonstrate that its interest in public transport for the citizens of Gladstone. giving people in the country areas a real The streets in the city are very narrow and, say. We had the great difficulty of local with about 4,500 children attending schools, authorities trying to meet the cost of sup­ honourable members can imagine the chaos plying all the up-to-date requirements. When near school gates prior to and after school. we think of town planners, engineers and If we can get a reply from the Treasurer all the other professional personnel required through the Minister, or if the Minister can today, it is an impossibility for small councils assist in any way, we will be very thankful. to provide such services. I point out that residents who bought We had the machinery or the instrument houses in the outer suburbs developed by whereby these groups could get together, subdividers had their valuation fixed on the co-operate and co-ordinate their activities; yet basis that public transport was available. Pen­ that opportunity is to disappear. While these sioners who live in these areas can no longer comments do not strictly pertain the Bill, get to town for a 13 or 14c. bus fare. They I believe that Queenslanders ought to know now have to hire a taxi and pay $2.50. This the reasons behind the move and what the is very unfair. I believe that local govern­ regional councils will be replaced with. Their ment has a responsibility to provide public abolition is a very backward step. transport. I close on that note but reserve my right to speak to the Bill at the second­ I repeat that for the first time local reading stage after I have examined it closely. authorities had an opportunity to co-ordinate and co-operate. Now the infrastructure is Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (8.9 p.m.): being removed. If we are ever to give I rise to speak mainly because of the con­ people a real voice in government, we have cern expressed in my area at the Govern­ to institute a type of regional government. ment's move to do away with regional The State Government fulfils a useful and councils. While this comes under the forceful role in certain areas. Administrative Premier's portfolio I am sure that most expertise such as in education and police must people in Queensland would like to know be centralised. While there is a need for what the Minister for Local Government and that, there is also a growing trend to give Main Roads thinks of this move. While there people a greater say at the local level. was some criticism of the legis'lation when it The Minister for Education has said very was introduced some time ago, and while clearly that he wants to see greater com­ some questions were asked about the 10 munity involvement in education. He said regions to be established, I believe we eventu­ that we will start with the use of schools, ally accepted the philosophy and thought that so that the community can use those expen­ the ideas put forward by the Premier and sive facilities, which it is rather ridiculous the then Minister for Local Government (Mr. to leave unused for 19 hours a day. McKechnie) would be for the good in the long-term planning of local authorities That is the first step. There are moves throughout the State. But now we hear that elsewhere to ensure that the community has without the matter really being brought a say. In the real area of decision-making before the Parliament the system is being at the local level-that is, the local author­ abolished. I recall that the present Minister ities-that tendency is disappearing. There­ for Justice spoke on the matter at the time, fore, because of the moves by this Govern­ and I believe that most honourable members ment to do away with regional councils, I praised the idea. They were able to see that ask the Minister, whether he does it now this was in the interests of Queensland at the or tomorrow, to voice his views and make grass roots level of government. We realise them clearly known to the people of that when there are 130 or 131 local author­ Queensland. ities, difficulties arise. Obviously, those areas responsible for tourist facilities have a huge Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister cost burden to carry-a cost burden that can­ for Local Government and Main Roads) not be met by the ratepayers. They just can­ (8.13 p.m.), in reply: I thank all honour­ not afford to do it. When I cite the Hervey able members for their contributions in this Bay area, some parts of Mackay and the debate. As usual, all members who spoke Livingstone Shire Council, I am sure hon­ went on a Cook's tour and touched on ourable members will understand what I am everything except those matters in the Bill. talking about. There are shires trying to carry out a huge task in providing facHities I shall comment briefly on the various and amenities not just for the people who statements made. First of all, I refer to live in the area but for all those who use the member for Wolston, who led the debate. and benefit from its tourist resources. He found some problems with the distri­ bution of representatives on councils that There is some concern, and the concern he believed to be not reasonably elected, is valid. We ought to know why this is with 265 electors in one division and pos­ happening. I was hoping that the co-ordin­ sibly 4,000 or 5,000 in another. He found ation of councils throughout Queensland something wrong with that. I do not want would only be the first step towards a it to be thought that I am talking about type of regional government. There has another matter, but that gets back to one been a lot of talk about centralism; yet vote, one value. Apparently the honourable 2896 Local Government Act [5 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill

member for Wolston believes that all divi­ The honourable member for Wynnum sions should have the same number of elec­ spoke of benefited areas for off -street parking. tors, irrespective of the area covered. The This is a real problem. It has been con­ 265 electors that he referred to are in an sidered in the Brisbane area. It would not be area very much greater than that for the very well received if we set up benefited areas division with 4,000 or 5,000. throughout Brisbane to overcome the prob­ The honourable member referred also to lems he referred to. I am prepared to give Landsborough. When I first came into further consideration to the points he raised. local government, the same thing applied I can give the honourable member for to me. In the No. 2 division of the Albert Mackay the assurance that it is not the Gov­ Shire there were 260 electors. Of course, the ernment's intention to keep people on the same thing applies in local authorities superannuation board if they are not fully throughout Queensland. Frankly, I do not representative. The honourable member think that there is any real cause for alarm. should understand that a number of other Local government is doing a very good job unions believe they should be represented on for the State of Queensland. the board. Until a decision is made on which The honourable member spoke of the unions and the representation there should Grants Commission. He found some fault be, it was decided to appoint the members for in the present set-up. He acknowledges that six months. That was the reason for the the Grants Commission is covered by the Bill last year. I assure the honourable mem­ portfolio of my colleague the Deputy Premier ber that it is not the Government's intention and Treasurer. I do not wish to reply on his to extend it ad infinitum. He made the point behalf but let us get the Grants Commission and I think I have answered it in a way that under way and look at its performance after is acceptable to him. another year or two to see if it has carried The honourable member for Port Curtis out its duties well or not. obviously has a wealth of knowledge of local We can vouch for the personnel on the government. He referred to town plans and commission. They are very well known to the need to make sure that subdividers, when people throughout Queensland. They are they are providing services, are treated fairly Sir Charles Barton, Albie Abbott from by local authorities. Later on tonight I shall Mackay, Allan Hollindale from Gold be saying more about that particular matter. Coast, Sir Reginald Groom who was We want to keep the costs to the barest Lord Mayor of Brisbane, Mr. Leo Hielscher minimum and ensure that they are not loaded from the Treasury and Charles Palmer from onto the ratepayers. Longreach, who is the permanent member of the Grants Commission. The representation He referred to transport being a function is pretty well spread throughout the State. of local government. I am sure that either the mayor of Gladstone or the honourable The honourable member for Rockhampton member could take that matter up with my North referred to compensation for land colleague the Minister for Transport, who resumed for road construction. I see a prob­ may be able to assist in the transportation of lem here. If anybody in the honourable people in the Port Curtis area. member's electorate believes he is not receiving fair treatment from the Government The honourable member for Rockhampton in regard to land resumed for public purposes, referred to regional councils. All I can say I will either meet a deputation led by the to him is that this proposal comes within honourable member or will meet him next another portfolio. The honourable member time I am in Rockhampton and try to solve asked me to give reasons for the elimination his problems. I do not want anybody to have of regional councils. I am not going to say the impressiOn that the Main Roads Depart­ that they have not functioned as well as ment or local authorities will take land for they should have. All I can say is that over public purposes and not pay just compensa­ the years in which they have been in exist­ tion. ence there has been no great acceptance of Mr. Casey: Will you come to Mackay and regional councils by the Local Government do the same concerning the land taken for Association or councils in general. the Rocleigh Bridge? A few years ago, during the very definite Mr. HINZE: Mackay has not done too swing to centralism throughout Australia, badly, not through the efforts of the honour­ there was some concern about the future of able member for Mackay but through those local government. The way Whitlam was of the honourable member for Proserpine. heading, with the_R.E.D. scheme and other Mr. Burns: You don't even know the name schemes, there was a strong possibility that of the electorate. funds would flow direct to regional councils, leaving local authorities, along with State Mr. HINZE: Whitsunday. It was owing Governments, in danger of elimination. This to the Minister's representations that the would have left the central Government in Rocleigh Bridge was built. The honourable Canberra as the only Government in Aus­ member need not worry much about Mackay. tralia, with regional councils dependent on People up there, such as the honourable hand-outs from Canberra. I do not know if member for Mirani, keep me well informed that is what the honourable member for on the requirements around Mackay. Rockhampton wants me to say. Albert Shire Council [5 APRIL 1977] (Ratification of Administration) Bill 2897

Mr. Wright: No, it is not. You were one 1977, whereas the necessary resolutions for of the greatest advocates of regional develop­ the adoption of the budget, the definition of ment and regional government. the benefited area and the making of the rate were not passed until 27 January 1977. Mr. HINZE: I appreciate that there are The reason that the action was not 'taken times when councils must get together to within the prescribed time was the fact ,that talk about border and boundary issues and to a copy of the Act was not received by the do things of a regional nature. I had dis­ council until well after the Bill received cussions with 17 local authorities in the royal assent. Some time elapses before Moreton region about a water authority. copies of an Act become available from When we sat down round the table. 10 did the Government Printing Office. not want a Moreton region water authority and seven did want it. The initial legislation was designed to I am not suggesting that regional coun­ overcome rating anomalies in the Woon­ cils are redundant; all I am saying is that goolba area and it is desirable that the local government is getting on quite well council be empowered to take the necessary without them. That is why the Government steps to rectify this inequality. said, "There is cost involved with regional councils and there is no point in keeping For this purpose, a short declaratory Bill them going. Local councils are doing quite has been prepared providing that the budget well without them." and rate purported to be adopted and made by the council pursuant to the provisions of Motion (Mr. Hinze) agreed to. the Albert Shire Council Budget Adjustment Resolution reported. Act 1976 and the various other steps taken under that Act are deemed to be as valid and effectual as if they had been carried out FIRST READING within the prescribed time. This will enable Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. the council to levy and collect separate rates Hinze, read a first time. on lands in the benefited area to defray the cost of the flood mitigation works which are necessary to increase sugar-<:ane pr?­ ALBERT SHIRE COUNCIL {RATIFICA­ duction in the area. I commend the Bill TION OF ADMINISTRATON) BILL to the Committee. INITIATION IN COMMITTEE Mr. MARGINSON (Wolston) (8.28 p.m.): If ever there was an example of gross (Mr. Kaus. Mansfield, in the chair) negligence on the part of a local authority Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Min­ we see a fine example of it with the intro­ ister for Local Government and Main Roads) duction of this Bill tonight. Last November, (8.25 p.m.): I move- because of the council's negligence in that it had not recognised new valuations o.n certain "That a Bill be introduced to validate, properties, the Government had to mtroduce approve, ratify and make lawful certain a Bill to overcome inequities brought about acts, matters and things done by the by the council's budget. We now fin_d tha!, Council of the Shire of Albert in the pur­ legislation having been passed to assist th:s ported exercise of powers conferred on shire council to overcome its problem, It that Council by the Albert Shire Council very promptly took no notice of it with t~e Budget Adjustment Act 1976 and for other purposes." result that tonight we have another Bill before us to legalise, as it were, its inactivity The purpose of this Bill is to validate actions in not complying with the previous legisla­ of the Albert Shire Council in connection tion. with the levy of separate rates by the coun­ cil on a benefited area at Woongoolba for That is in effect what this legislation really the purpose of financing flood mitigation is but, as I claimed during the debate on works in that area. the original legislation, there was no neces­ Honourable members may recall that sity for it. In fact, I doubt that any ot~er legislation was passed during the last ses­ local authority would have got away w1th sion of Parliament to enable the council to what the Albert Shire Council has, because recast its budget for the current financial year the Local Government Act, under which in relation to these works. The legislation shires are administered, makes it quite clear authorised the council to frame and adopt that when a budget has been adopted, no a fresh separate rate fund budget for the matter under what valuations, it remains in works, ,to define a new benefited area and force for the whole 12 months--and so it make and levy a new separate rate in respect should-so that the council knows what its thereof. In terms of the legislation this income wiiJ be and the ratepayers know action had to be taken within 30 days of their liabilities to the shire council. But its coming into force. here because someone in the council­ eith~r the officers of the council or the coun­ It has come to notice that the council cillors themselves-had overlooked rthe fact failed to take the above action within the that some of the land in the shire had been time prescribed. The 30-day period pre­ substantially reduced in value, rthe rate that scribed by the Act expired on 17 January was struck was computed incorrectly. 2898 Albert Shire Council [5 APRIL 1977] (Ratification of Administration) Bill

Why could they not have done within honourable members were led by the Minis­ 30 days the work that they ought to have ter's speech when introducing the Bill to done? Honourable members have heard in believe that it was designed to correct a this debate the lame excuse that they could rating anomaly that had occurred in the not obtain a copy of the Act because the shire during that financial year. Government Printer had not printed it suf­ ficiently early. The Act to which I am Mr. Moore interjected. referring was never amended. If the member for the area-and I refer to the honourable Mr. BURNS: The honourable member for member for Albert, who was very vocal Windsor was led to believe that, too. when amendments to the Act were last dis­ The Opposition accepted that explanation cussed-had done his duty, he would have although, from other comments made, we taken a copy of the Act to the shire council, were suspicious that there had also been as the 11 members of the A.L.P. in this some bungling on the part of the Albert Chamber would have done, and said, "There's Shire Council. Representations made to me the law. Get cracking." Even if the Bill earlier this year indicated that it was obvious had not been assented to, the council would that certain ratepayers did not know what have received copies from us in due course. was going on concerning the rating of their But no, the honourable member did not do land till they received a cheque from the anything about it. He let the matter rest. Albert Shire Council refunding some of their Undoubtedly he went away for his Christmas rates. They then started to make inquiries holidays, and so did the senior vice-president and wanted to know why they were getting of the National Party, who is also a coun­ money back. It is very rarely, of course, cillor in the Albert Shire and a friend of that one gets money back from a council. the Minister. He thought, "We will forget about it and do something about it when Subsequently, I asked the Minister a series we come back." However, when they came of questions in this Chamber in an endeavour back, the 30 days allowed by law had expired. to find out exactly what was going on, Consequently, another Bi]] is now being intro­ because evidence was beginning to filter duced to overcome their negligence in not through that what was fixed by the first doing what they ought to have done under special Act passed by this Assembly was the legislation that was introduced last not a rating anomaly but a valuation dif­ November. ferential that went against the land barons in the Albert Shire who wield great influence Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the in the National Party. It is not surprising Opposition) (8.32 p.m.): This is one of the that in these circumstances (knowing the most incredible pieces of legislation ever to direction to which National Party Ministers come before the House. It demonstrates are subjected by Mr. Sparkes and others clearly the lengths to which the Government and by the outside organisation of the party) is prepared to go for its powerful friends the word went out to fix the problem as and allies and the pressures it is prepared soon as possible. to accept to assist its friends, even to the extent of disadvantaging other people in As might be expected, no real information the community. was forthcoming in answer to my questions, and we assumed that the disadvantaged Recently honourable members heard the ratepayers of the Albert Shire were going Minister refer to cockies in biscuit tins. Well, to have to suffer the fate of all the other he sounds like a galah in an ice cream can underprivileged people in the State and cop when he tries to justify this sort of nonsense without question what the Government handed and rattles it off at 55 miles an hour. out to them. When notice was given of the Bill that we are now debating, the At the bottom of all this there is an Opposition was confident that it had pressed unhealthy and immoral desire to give financial the Minister into a corner and that he was relief to prominent persons in the National going to restore the position that prevailed Party such as one councillor who is a mem­ before all the fiddling went on last year ber of the Albert Shire Council and who is a big landholder in the area covered by the We were astounded tonight to find that Bill. This relief is being given at the expense that is not the case; but we were more of less prominent people who accepted the astounded to find that the Government again position as it originally applied to them has the cheek to come before Parliament without complaint and without adopting the and ask us to support a further Bill to per­ frightening tactics of organising two special petuate the injustices created by its first Acts of Parliament merely to obtain some attempt to fix things for its supporters at financial gain for themselves. I am amazed Woongoolba. It now seems that the Albert that the Minister has been prepared to go Shire Council did not meet its commitments along with this lobby. Surely he can see under the special Act passed last year for that the relief given to these prominent the benefit of those ratepayers who were people is at the expense of other ratepayers­ able to manipulate this Government to suit or doesn't he care, so long as his mates themselves. are fixed up? 'The first question to be asked is: why When the first special Bill was introduced didn't the Albert Shire Council observe the during the last sittings of this Assembly, provisions of last year's special Act? I Albert Shire Council [5 APRIL 1977] (Ratification of Administration) Bill 2899 am told by some of the people on the council Bill to ensure that more is drained out of that it was not because the Bill was not those people who are less able to afford it printed in time but because some of the than out of those who have some political members realised the injustices that the Bill pull or offer some political advantage? created and preferred to let the matter lie. I Mr. Casey: Something like that has hap­ am also told that the matter was drawn to the attention of the Minister but that he pened in the Bowen Shire, too. said, "Don't worry about it. Nothing will Mr. BURNS: I am concerned that people happen." The Minister might be able to should be able to do this. As I understand furnish some enlightening information on the position, the councils are supposedly this aspect, as he seems to be well aware of independent and are supposed to be able to the activities of this council. In fact, I make their own decisions. If they make think he used to be its chairman. decisions that adversely affect people in a The most absorbing aspect of all, however, particular area, they can be thrown out is why no action at all was taken until I at the next election. Special Bills should not raised the issue in this House purely in an be introduced to alter the position to suit endeavour to assist certain ratepayers who the arrangements of certain people in the felt they had been the subject of a confidence area. trick perpetrated on them by either this It is our contention that this exercise should Government or the Albert Shire Council or never have been entertained in the first place both working :together. An explanation of and that to indulge in further legislative this point from the Minister might also dis­ action at this stage to save the operation is close some interesting information. ludicrous. It is an indication of the lengths From the answers which the Minister to which this Government is prepared to go supplied to my questions, it is obvious that to help its friends, and we cannot support it. he was aware of what had taken place but It is making a laughing-stock of valuations, intended to do nothing about it. Why? Was of local government as a whole and certainly he frightened that he wouldn't be able to of the Government. obtain approval from Government members I cannot recall action along these lines for another Bill to correct the position? Or ever being taken in the past, and we sincerely was it an attitude of complete disregard for hope that we will not see it again in the the laws of this State? Whatever the reasons, future. the end result was completely unsatisfactory as far as we are concerned, and on this Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister basis I cannot possibly support this Bill. for Local Government and Main Roads) The Opposition will not divide the Committee (8.39 p.m.), in reply: We have had to listen on the issue, but we most certainly will be to the Leader of the Opposition trying to voting against the Bill. draw some red herrings across the trail in Although we are not conversant with the respect of what is a simple declaratory Bill. detailed provisions of the Bill, from what It is not designed for any ulterior purpose. the Minister has said it is likely that if the Bill Because the Albert Shire Council is so close is not approved the rating in the Woongoolba to Brisbane and the news media, it is quite area wiil revert to its original position. We obvious that if there were any problems they believe that is how it should be. would have been aired well and truly before In essence, what has happened here is that now. The ratepayers in the shire would during the year certain landholders received certainly have made themselves heard. As valuations that didn't fit in with the rating Minister for Local Government, I have had pattern adopted by the local authority. no representations from landholders in the Because the lands of certain privileged area. I cannot find anyone who is concerned people are affected, the Government has bent about his council. If there was any outbreak over backwards to ensure that these privi­ of concern by the ratepayers in the Woon­ leged people are not affected in any way goolba area, it would have been very well financially. So today it gives the Albert ventilated in the news media today or within Shire Council the opportunity to have a sec­ the past few weeks, when it was known that ond bite at the cherry. Last year it had this Bill would be brought forward. I can one; today it is having another. What is only say that it was an honest mistake. It to happen if ,the council doesn't observe the seems that people in local government are not law this time? Is it to be given a third supposed to make mistakes; they have to bite? be right all the time. More importantly, is this privilege to be Perhaps I should take exception to the extended to other areas throughout Queens­ implication that some members of the land? What is going to happen if the National Party are getting something for Kingaroy Shire or the Wondai Shire decides nothing or are getting advantages. I guess that it, too, wants to get in on the act? it is all right for the Leader of the Opposition Are we going to see a whole series of to make such accusations. He can make special Acts designed specifically to adjust them, but they are not true in fact. I the payment of rates where people of great am quite sure that if the Leader of the influence decide they might be paying too Opposition ever governs the State he will much and ask the Government to pass a not be a party to introducing declaratory 2900 Albert Shire Council, &c., Bill [5 APRIL 1977] City of Brisbane, &c., Bill

Bills to benefit any particular person, irre­ Mr. MARGINSON (Wolston) (8.45 p.m.): spective of which particular party he belongs It is ludicrous that we are now to have some to. amendments put in Committee. As I said I point out to the Leader of the Opposition earlier, we do not like the proposal. We win that that is not the reason for this declar­ not divide the House on it. However, we atory Bill. It has been introduced because feel that the council should have been the Albert Shire Council, which is very allowed to go on with its budget during the well recognised in Queensland and through­ present financial year and to overcome these out Australia, has made an honest mistake. problems in respect of the benefited area As the Minister, I have tried to overcome when it framed its next budget. what I believe to be a small problem. Motion (Mr. Hinze) agreed to. If the ratepayers thought that there was any real problem, or any semblance of special COMMITTEE treatment for a section of the people in this cane-growing area of the Albert Shire, (Mr. Kaus, Mansfield, in the chair) which everybody is proud of and which has developed remarkably in the past few years, Clauses 1 to 5, both inclnsive, as read, we would have to be concerned. That is agreed to. not the case and I am sure that, with the Clause 6-Cessation of operation of bud­ passage of this Bill. the small problem that get, separate rate and benefited area- has occurred will be overcome. Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister The Leader of the Opposition said that for Local Government and Main Roads) this action has not been necessary previously. (8.47 p.m.): As I foreshadowed in my second­ He may be right, and I doubt whether reading speech, it is necessary for two amend­ the position will arise again. However, if ments to be made to clause 6 in order to it does as a result of an honest mistake correct minor errors made when the Bill was made bv a local authority and representations printed. I therefore move the following are made to the Government, I am sure the amendment:- Government will use the protection of this "On page 2, line 43, omit the figure­ Assembly to overcome the problems facing the council. '21' Motion C\1r. Hinze) agreed to. and insert in lieu thereof the figure­ '23'." Resolu'ion reported. Amendment agreed to. FIRST READING Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister Hinze, read a first time. for Local Government and Main Roads): I move the following further amendment:­ SECOND READING "On page 2, line 46, omit the figure- Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister '23' for Local Government and Main Roads) and insert in lieu thereof the figure­ (8.44 p.m.), by leave: I move- ~21 '." "That the Bill be now read a second time." Amendment agreed to. During the introductory stage, I explained Clause 6, as amended, agreed to. fully the principal provisions of the Bill. Bill reported, with amendments. The intention is to validate and make law­ ful certain actions of the Albert Shire Council THIRD READING under the Albert Shire Council Budget Adjustment Act 1976 so that the budget Bill, on motion of Mr. Hinze, by leave, adopted and the rates made and levied by read a third time. the council in respect of the particular func­ tion of local government called the Woon­ CITY OF BRISBANE TOWN PLANNING goolba Flood Mitigation Scheme may con­ ACT AND ANOTHER ACT tinue to operate in the manner proposed AMENDMENT BILL by the council. The Bill is a simple measure and places INITIATION IN COMMITTEE no additional responsibility on the Albert (Mr. Kaus, Mansfield, in the chair) Shire Council in the matter. It merely approves what the council has done to date Hon. R. J. HINZE (South Coast-Minister for the reasons which I explained during for Local Government and Main Roads) (8.51 the introductory stage and I can see no p.m.): I move- reason to depart from any of the provisions "That a Bill be introduced to amend the contained in the Bill. City of Brisbane Town Planning Act 1964- Because of printing errors in clause 6 1976 and the Acquisition of Land Act of the Bill. it will however, be necessary 1967-1969 each in certain particulars." to amend both paragraphs (a) and (b) thereof. The principal purpose of this Bill is to give It is my intention at the Committee stage effect to a number of amendments of the to move that these amendments be made. City of Brisbane Town Planning Act, so that I commend the Bill to the House. the modified town plan, recently submitted City of Brisbane [5 APRIL 1977] Town Planning, &c., Bill 2901 to the Government by the Brisbane City plans. Such period will run from the date Council, can be formally adopted when of approval of one town plan and the public approved. exhibition of the next. I think honourable members will support this proposal. The Bill also clarifies the law in relation to certain matters dealing with the implemen­ Another amendment contained in the Bill tation of town plans by the Brisbane City empowers the council, when considering an Council. application for the rezoning of land, to take into consideration such things as the likelihood The Bill also seeks to make a minor of the land's being flooded, the availability amendment to the Acquisition of Land Act of essential services to the land and whether in respect of the resumption by Brisbane an environmental impact study should be City Council of land for park, garden and carried out where the council feels that the recreation purposes. development of the land would be likely to For the information of the committee, I have a deleterious effect on the environment. will outline some of the more important Local authorities outside the city of Brisbane provisions of the Bill. already have this power under the Local Government Act and it has been decided to One provision of the Bill clarifies that vest similar power in the Brisbane City objections to town plans prepared by the Council. Brisbane City Council, amendments of the town plan, and applications made to the The Bill also seeks to amend, in a number council for town-planning approvals (such as of particulars, the existing law relating to the the approval to use and develop land) will payment of compensation for injurious close at 4 p.m. on the last day for the affection. Under present law, where land is receipt of objections. The period within included in a special uses A zone, or a which objections may be lodged is prescribed special uses B (Railway) zone, a proposed by the Act. For example, in the case of a open space zone or an existing open space new town plan a period of 60 days is allowed zone, a person having an interest in the land for the lodgment of objections, whereas in is entitled to claim compensation for injurious the case of an amendment of the town plan affection in certain circumstances, for proposed by the council a period of 30 days example, where he satisfies the Local Govern­ is prescribed for the lodgment of objections. ment Court that he is unable to sell the land Under present law, it could be argued that because of the restrictive zoning or because the objection period closes at midnight on the that zoning caused him to sell the land at a last day for the receipt of objections. This lower price than he would have received if it of course, was never intended. To put the had not been in force. matter beyond doubt, the Bill provides that Under the modified town plan that is pre­ the objection period will close at 4 p.m. on sently awaiting approval, there is no reference that day. This conforms with the provision to the zones mentioned. The names of the contained in the City of Brisbane Town corresponding zones in the modified town Plan Modification Act in respect of the plan are the special uses zone, the existing or closing time for the lodgment of objections proposed open space zone, and sport and to the modified town plan recently prepared by the council. recreation zone. It is accordingly necessary to make reference to these new zones in the A further provision of the Bill is designed law so as to preserve the right of a person to increase the period presently allowed for to claim compensation for injurious affection the preparation of new town plans by the where his land is included in any of such council. Under the present law, a maximum zones. period of five years is allowed between the The Bill contains a schedule listing the date one town plan is placed on public particular zones that give rise to a claim exhibition and the date when the subsequent for compensation for injurious affection in plan has to be placed on public exhibition. these circumstances, and power is vested in The public exhibition of the modified town the Governor in Council (by Order in Coun­ plan now before the Government is not rele­ cil) to alter the names of zones in the vant in this connection, and the time for the schedule from time to time. This will avoid preparation of the next town plan under the necessity for amending legislation each present law runs from 28 February time the name of a zone referred to therein 1975, which was the date of exhibition of the is altered. town plan that was returned to the council for modification. This means that two years Provision is also made in the Bill for a of the five-year period allowed for the pre­ person to claim compensation for injurious paration of the next plan have already expired affection where his land is included in one and, if the law is not amended, the council of the zones I have just mentioned and the will have to commence almost immediately council subsequently resumes the land. In with the task of preparing a new plan. We these circumstances, it is felt that a person consider that, having regard to the cost of should be entitled to claim compensation for preparation of a new plan and other factors, injurious affection where he can satisfy the this is an unreasonable position and the Bill council that, by reason of the restrictive provides that a period of seven years will be zoning of his land, he received less compen­ allowed for the preparation of new town sation for it upon resumption than he might 2902 City of Brisbane [5 APRIL 1977] Town Planning, &c., Bill

reasonably have expected to receive if the A further provision provides for the proper restriction did not apply. The Bill so pro­ accounting of contributions which a developer vides. is required to make to the council in respect of the carrying out (by the council) of A further amendment relating to the pay­ works relating to the particular development ment of compensation for injurious affection for which approval has been sought. The deals with a case where a person has an Bill provides that, where a contribution is interest in land in a particular zone under so required, a written agreement will have which a number of uses are permissible (sub­ to be executed between the council and the ject to the prior consent of the council) and developer setting out the amount of contribu­ the zoning is subsequently changed, or the tion to be made, the nature of the works town plan is amended to provide that all or to be carried out and the period of time some of these discretionary uses are pro­ within which the works will have to be hibited. The Bill provides that in such a commenced and completed. Provision is also case the person concerned is entitled to com­ made for the money so paid to the council pensation for injurious affection where he to be placed in its trust fund and expended can satisfy the court that he could reasonably on the works concerned within a period of have expected to receive consent to develop three years from the date specified in the the land for a particular purpose that is agreement or such lesser period as may be subsequently prohibited if he had applied specified therein. to the council for such consent immediately before the amendment (effecting the prohibi­ The council will be required to furnish tion) came into force. A hypothetical case the Director of Local Government with an might be where a person buys land zoned annual return showing contribution moneys residential B, wherein multiple dwellings are that, at 30 June in each year, are held in permissible subject to council's prior consent. the trust fund and have not been expended Honourable members will appreciate that if in accordance with the agreement. The Bill the land were subsequently included in a zone also clarifies that interest received by the in which the erection of multiple dwellings is council on money so lodged with the council prohibited, the value of the land in the hands will have to be paid into the trust fund and used in accordance with the agreement of the owner would be depreciated. In the entered into between the developer and the circumstances mentioned the amending pro­ council. vision will enable the landowner to claim compensation for injurious affection if he can It is felt that it is desirable, in the public satisfy the court that he could reasonably interest, that these contributions should be have expected to receive consent for the properly accounted for; and, of course, it is erection of a multiple dwelling had he made also very important from a local government application to the council immediately prior viewpoint, that not only must the right thing to the prohibition's coming into operation. be done, but it must also be seen te be done. Another amendment included in the Bill These provisions should remove, or at least seeks to specify more precisely conditions minimise, conflicts which give rise from time that the council cannot lawfully impose when to time to unsubstantiated claims, suggestions dealing with certain types of town-planning or allegations of illegal or shady practices or applications, except where the applicant demands by councils. voluntarily agrees to comply with the con­ ditions. The amendment provides in general It is my intention to take action to embody that conditions imposable by the council similar provisions in the Local Government when dealing with such applications-other Act, affecting all other local authorities in than the conditions stated to be unlawful­ Queensland, later this year. I already have had will have to be authorised by the ordinances some discussions on these matters with local of the council and will have to be reasonably authority representatives-including Brisbane necessary in the public interest for the proper City Council representatives-and I believe development of the land in question. that, on balance, the provisions will clear up many of the so-called "grey" areas which The existing provisions prohibiting the im­ now give rise to considerable conflict, allega­ position by the counCil of certain conditions tions and concern both within local govern­ when dealing with applications for the sub­ division of land or for site approval (except ment itself and outside it. Any suggestions by agreement) are preserved. One such pro­ that these provisions will add to the cost of hibition is the imposition of a condition on developments to the ratepayer are, of course, a snbdivider that he truncate a corner of a irrelevant, because no matter how services road that has already been truncated. In or facilities are provided, it's the buyer­ addition, the existing provision under which the ratepayer-who foots the bill in the long an applicant may agree with the council to run. We feel that it is desirable in the public meet certain conditions that the law provides interest that these contributions should be that the council cannot lawfully impose is properly accounted for. removed. The Government considers that this provision could encourage councils to nego­ The Bill amends the provisions of the tiate conditions that would otherwise be present law dealing with the advertising of unlawful. applications for the subdivision of land. The City of Brisbane [5 APRIL 1977] Town Planning, &c., Bill 2903

amendment provides that subdivisional environmental effects, etc.; the question of applications will not have to be advertised compensation for injurious affection; and con­ for objections in future except where- ditions that apply to town-planning applica­ (A) the land to be subdivided is owned by tions where the applicant voluntarily agrees to comply with the conditions set by the the Brisbane City Council; or council. Under these circumstances, the Bill (B) the proposed subdivision will result in can be described as just tinkering around the creation of a road bounding allot­ with the Act rather than tackling anything ments external to the land being sub­ substantial or worth while. divided; or Planning legislation in Queensland is (C) the land is included in the existing or riddled with anomalies and something cer­ proposed open space zone or in the tainly ought to be done about it. Looking sport and recreation zones. at the anomalies in the present situation to begin with, there are two separate Acts. One The Bill makes no alteration to the present is the City of Brisbane Town Planning Act, provisions relating to the advertising of lease which deals with planning within the City of subdivisions of land. This will mean that Brisbane; the other is section 33 of the a lease by the council of part of a parcel Local Government Act which covers the of land for a period of less than five years, remainder of the State. It is a fair question without right of renewal, will not require to ask why there are two separate Acts. Are to be advertised. the people of Brisbane superior or inferior, or feel that I have given honourable different in some way, that they should be members a fair summary of the amendments treated differently and that there should be that are proposed to be made to the City different Acts on planning for them and for of Brisbane Town Planning Act. the remainder of Queenslanders? In the case of Brisbane, town-planning is mandatory; in As I mentioned at the outset, the Bill the case of the remainder of the State town· also provides for a minor amendment of the planning is optional. Acquisition of Land Act. Section 8 (3) of that Act provides that, before the Brisbane The City of Brisbane Town Plan-and City Council can. resume land for park, that is what we are approving tonight­ garden or recreatiOnal purposes, the land is required, quite properly, to include, together concerned has to be zoned open space under with all the usual zoning maps and ordinances, the town plan. It is considered desirable to a statement of intent, and the statement is specify the names of the particular zones required to be supported with proper plan­ in which the land to be resumed will have ning surveys and an indication of how the to be included. This is done by making plan is to be implemented. There is a require­ a reference m section 8 (3) of the Acquisition ment that there shall be an economic assess­ of Land Act to the zones set out in the ment, and it might be said here that this Second Schedule to the City of Brisbane could weii be supplemented by a require· Town Planning Act as inserted by the Bill. ment that there also be a social and environ· mental assessment of the implications of the When the modified town plan is approved plan. the zones in question will be the existing o; In my own area, the social and environ­ proposed open space zone or the sport and mental implications of the plan become of recreatiOn zone. It will be remembered that the Governor in Council is authorised to major importance to the people who live in alter the Schedule from time to time by the area close to the Metropolitan Public inserting the names of the new zones that Abattoir Board, the tanneries or other indus­ might be created under future town plans. tries where the smells and the problems of The proposed amendment of the Acquisition pollution from industrial development cause of Land Act has been discussed with my great concern. The social and environmental colleague the Honourable the Minister for effects of the Government decision to build Lands, Forestry, National Parks and Wildlife a new port at the mouth of the Brisbane Service and his department, and they are in River, on Fisherman Islands, should also be agreement therewith. taken into consideration when we are talking of town-planning. I commend the Bill to the Committee. There are no similar requirements in the Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the case of plans under the Local Government ~pposition! (9.5 p.m.): As I see the Bill, it Act, even though there are some require­ 1s a -?Jachmery measure to amend the City ments in the Brisbane Town Plan. As I of Bnsbane Town Pbnning Act. The matters said, planning outside Brisbane is optional, that the Minister has mentioned in his speech and therefore a lot of damage can be done are: ~pproval of the modified town plan and by speculators pending the introduction of ce~tan~ amendrr:ents to handle the question of planning controls. I mention this point obJ~CtJons closmg at 4 p.m.; a maximum because if we have land speculators working penod of seven years, instead of five, between in areas outside the capital city, we have to the date of one town plan and the publication put up with their transport costs and the of t?e .next; a council, when handling an developments on the fringe of the city that ~ppbcatJo_n for. rezoning of land, may take affect the city itself. Quite apart from the mto cons1derat10n the likelihood of the land damage to the environment, it is certainly a being flooded, the availability of services, the fact that damage done by speculative 2904 City of Brisbane [5 APRIL 1977] Town Planning, &c., Bill

developen-speculators in land-is costing the low-key involvement of the Co-ordin­ local government councils and their rate­ ator-General in regional planning and devel­ payers a great deal of money. opment is also about to be abandoned. I am told that the Local Government Department Then again, the appeals procedure is dif­ will take over the environmental section of ferent between Brisbane and the rest of the the Co-ordinator-General's Department. State. There are slightly different rights of What is happening now is that all of the appeal between Brisbane and the rest of the organisations that were set up in 1971 for State; there are slightly different rights of involvement in this particular aspect of appeal under the two Acts. All of them, of planning are being dismantled. course, are expensive. They aU relate to the highly legalistic system of planning appeals In speaking to the Bill, the Minister to the Local Government Court, and there is mentioned the conditions imposed in town­ nothing comparable with this in any of the planning applications where the applicant other States. So we have an extremely expen­ voluntarily agrees to comply with conditions. sive appeals system, plus confusing differences I spent a bit of time looking at this in planning legislation. Therefore, it is because, like a lot of other people, I am extremely difficult for the people to under­ concerned about the allegations of sweet­ stand, let alone participate in, the planning heart deals, blackmail and other things. process, which is what planning should be I asked certain officers of the Brisbane City all about-people participating, people being Council to explain to me exactly how this involved. So it can be argued that it would town-planning legislation worked and how be far better to have positive participation in they dealt with applications coming before planning coupled with inexpensive, readily them. They told me that they have long held accessible means of challenging planning the view that developers should be prepared decisions by way of appeal. We do not have to pay the cost of services associated with that, and it is fairly obvious that we are not their development projects. They said that going to get it from this Bill. the poor financial deal that local govern­ ment has received from other levels of gov­ One point that I think needs to be made is ernment has given the council no alternative that even a city the size of Brisbane cannot to pursuing this policy. be planned in isolation; yet here we are, tin­ kering around with trivial machinery aspects I asked them what sort of alternatives of legislation whereas there is no machinery they would have if they did not pursue this for planning Brisbane in a regional context. policy, and they made the point that altern­ atives to this method of financing develop­ I ask you, Mr. Kaus: who amongst us is ments are either unacceptable or unrealistic. not conscious of the traffic congestion get­ They include- ting worse in Brisbane week by week? The That the cost should be an additional traffic congestion is only one of the most burden on ratepayers and should not be obvious of the social and environmental charged against the developer; changes that are slowly overtaking us as the That the system of rates levied on the uncontrolled influx of population into the unimproved value of land is recognised south-east corner of the State continues. But as one of the most iniquitous methods of what are we doing about it? Does the Gov­ taxation; ernment care? I do not think it really does. For example, when we were discussing the That to further increase the burden on Loca:l Government Bill earlier tonight, we ratepayers for the sake of subsidising spoke of the demise of the regional councils, private entrepreneurs cannot be morally the co-ordinating councils. These were wiped justified; and out by an Order in Council a few weeks ago, That the costs could be financed by after all the trumpeting about what we were additional grants and subsidies to local going to do in the field of regional planning. authorities from State and Federal Gov­ In the next few months we will see the with­ ernments. drawal of the Co-ordinator General's Depart­ We know that recent Government decisions ment from any pretence of responsibility for that have had a detrimental effect on the regional planning. As I say, the regional financial viability of the Brisbane City Coun­ co-ordinating councHs are going to be aban­ cil indicate that this would be an unrealistic doned and all this conjures up nightmarish expectation. For example, today l was visions of development with a capita,! "D" looking at local government finance and and to hell with all the social and environ­ found that even if the philosophical argu­ mental consequences! ment that a local authority should provide The other day I read the speeches that all the works and services in private devel­ were made when that Bill was introduced. opments could be proved, the financial It is quite interesting to read the comments realities of the situation cannot be ignored. made at that time by the Minister and com­ Local government has suffered financial pare them with what is happening now. As deprivation resulting from unsympathetic members will recall, the Urban and Regional attitudes of both State and Federal Gov­ Affairs portfolio disappeared without trace ernments. last August. Prior to that there was a Min­ A few years ago the Queensland Govern­ ister for Urban and Regional Affairs in this ment reduced its subsidies to local author­ Government. Now we have a situation where ities for water and sewerage schemes from City of Brisbane [5 APRIL 1977} Town Planning, &c., Bill 2905

50 per cent to 33! per cent for water should not have to provide funds to help a schemes and to 40 per cent for sewerage subdivider develop land on ihe outskirts of schemes. No subsidy is now available for the city. sewerage extension schemes. Most reputable developers now accept that In 1965 the Queensland Government they have a responsibility to pay for services handed over traffic control to the Brisbane associated with their development. They City Council, but has not kept its promise appreciate that the council trelllts them all to provide sufficient funds to enable the equally and without favour. I accept that, council to carry out this work. The Gov­ if there are any weaknesses in the Act, we ernment is taking over the council's profit­ should eliminate them. Everything should be able electricity distribution, thereby depriv­ fair and above board and be seen in that ing the council of valuable funds again. It way. cannot continually take money away from I also note that the Queensland Govern­ councils or add to their cost burden and ment expects mining companies to contrib­ at the same time expect them not to impose ute to areas affected by their projects. In additional charges on the ratepayers and the same circumstances it is not unreasonable landowners in the district. that the Brisbane City Council should seek Commonwealth road grants for 1977 similar activity on behalf of the developers provide less money for urban roads at a time in its area. when local authorities are burdened with ris­ I am told that the allegations of secrecy, ing costs. Commonwealth grants for urban etc., are not true. When applications for roads in Queensland for 1977-78 total subdivision, development or site approval for $14,700,000 compared with $17,500,000 in a non-residential building are handled, the 1976-77. various council departments have to inves­ Commonwealth funds paid to local gov­ tigate the proposals and estimate the costs enment or to the States on their behalf are associated with roads, water, sewerage and either untied or tied. The Fraser Govern­ electricity. Those estimates are placed on ment, in allocating the 1.52 per cent of the file and the applicant is interviewed personal income tax for local government, about the developments required or needed provided $140,000,000 general purpose pay­ for his project to be of an acceptable stand­ ments to the States. Government spokesmen ard. He may then elect to proceed with the claim that this represents an increase on the development proposal, advising the council 1975-76 allocation 'to local government, but in writing that he is prepared to meet its failed to add that this referred only to requirements, or he may ask for a relaxation general purpose funds. The general purpose of the proposed conditions. Applications for assistance in 1976-76 amounted to relaxation are considered by the council's $79,900,000 and in 1976-77 to $140,000,000, Establishment and Co-ordination Committee. or plus 75 per cent. On the other hand, the In the event of an application being refused, specific purposes assistance fell from the applicant has the right of appeal to the $192,600,000 in 1975-76 to $53,300,000 in Local Government Court. 1976-77, or a reduction of 72 per cent. The It is important to realise that all this total Federal payments to the States for information is placed on file. I am informed local government fell from $272,500,000 in that allegations of secrecy and blackmail 1975-76 to $193,300,000 in 1976-77, or a cannot be substantiated as all files are made drop of 29.1 per cent. available for perusal to all aldermen and I have used those figures to show that in the Ombudsman, who has been a valuable talking about local authorities paying all asset in this area in that he has a right to these charges that land developers and others peruse the files. If information is placed on are asked to pay, we are really saying that file, as I am advised that it is, that seems to rates and charges will have to be put up and be a method of ensuring that there is no the ordinary landholder or householder who secrecy or blackmail. I make the point that has lived in an area for some time will have it is very difficult for a State member of to be slugged. I could go further and say Parliament to get files from Government that if that is not done the other way to do departments, but the council advises that it is for developments to be deferred until aldermen are able to obtain files and check the council can pay for all services assoc­ on some of these matters. iated with development. Mr. Lane: Over the years you have been If we accepted that the provision of roads, known to come by some unlawfully. gutters, sewerage, water, electricity and kerb­ ing and channelling be deferred, the council Mr. BURNS: I have not, but I know of would have to turn back the clock 20 years the honourable member's activities in this to the days preceding Labor administration regard. He has a history of it. He should when Brisbane was noted for long rows of not try to tar people with the brush that he outhouses, dusty roads and people holding has been noted for and has had a reputation sprinklers in their hands during summer. of using in the past. Those days have gone because the council The Brisbane City Council requires secur­ has accepted the idea that existing landholders ity from developers as a guarantee that work and ratepayers who have battled on while connected with their projects will be com­ their homes have attained some asset value pleted to the council's satisfaction. There are 2906 City of Brisbane [5 APRIL 1977] Town Planning, &c., Bill

a number of forms of security that the hardship. Take the case of a person living developer may elect to use. The most com­ in the area near the metropolitan abattoir, mon is to pay five-eighths of the cost of where the plant is breaking down all the bonded items into a council loan. The loan time. is transferred into the name of the council lf for some reason he had to shift out of for the time that it is required as security. the area and sell his house at this time, At the end of this time the loan is trans­ there would be no way that he could get ferred back to the applicant. I am told that, the true value of his home. When we clean at all times, the interest on the loan is up that problem and we overcome a lot of paid to the applicant. I have asked a couple the other problems associated with pollution of people engaged in this area about this and in that area, those homes will be of tremen­ they tell me that this is so. dous value. The area is very close to the In dealing with small amounts in cash, heart of the city. It is a beautiful area to the council pays the security straight into live in. I live in it myself. I know its its trust account. I am told that money potential. The major problem is that we have may be used for important works outside the those polluting industries that destroy the immediate area. I was making the point environment and really create some sickening that I believed that if a man with a sub­ smells. It not only creates a financial prob­ divisional area was required to pay money in, lem but also a mental problem. People are it should be only for water and sewerage not prepared to invite friends home for an works affecting his subdivision. However, I evening barbecue in the middle of summer. was told that unless road schemes or major They are not too certain that on tbat par­ headworks connect the development to the ticular night they will not get a smell making council's roads or sewerage treatment plant, everybody uncomfortable or making it impos­ (even if they may not be in the immediate sible to be outdoors. area but further down the road), they may have to be enlarged or other services may Mr. Lindsay: I'll come anyway. When is be necessary. In those circumstances the your next one? council or the developer must be prepared to provide extra funds to meet the cost of Mr. BURNS: We'll invite the honourable the major works. member over. I understand from the Minister's speech Mr. Hinze: If the industries were there tonight that the advertising of subdivisions first, how can people who go and settle there under the City of Brisbane Town Planning claim compensation for injurious affection? Act 1964-1976 will be deleted from the Act. l hope it is, because it was discriminatory Mr. BURNS: There may be an argument legislation which applied to no other local when the industries were there first, but I authority. It adds to the time and cost of can mention some industries that the '\1inister subdivisions-a cost that is passed on finally and I have been trying to have cleaned up to the purchaser. It is not necessary when and that have been built near Murarrie since the zoning of land clearly indicates the pro­ 1971. I can show him the old hide and skin posed use, and people have the right to works that was on the road to Old Cleveland object to rezoning applications. Since 1971, Road going down to Capalaba that has I understand there has been only one appeal been shifted to the top of the hill within 250 to the Local Government Court involving a yards of a new subdivision at Murarrie. Some subdivision application. Fairly obviously, then. people ha\~ been there since 1946. The new the system has been working very well. subdivision is being built now. On the fence on one side of the road are rotten hides In the last few minutes of the time allo­ covered in maggots and flies. On the other cated to me I ·.vant to talk about compensa­ side of the road are homes worth $30,000 tion for injurious affection. I have not had and $40,000. Those homes were there before an opportunity to read the Bill, but I would the hide and skin works was shifted. If I like to think compensation could be extended bought a home on the top of that hill in to people living in the Lytton eicctorate who what was a clean sweet-smelling area four or are injuriously affected by planning decisions five miles from the centre of the ci:y. and allowing industries to be set up in adjacent along came an industry-- areas-industries that destroy the environ­ ment, that result in the areas all the way :Vk Lane: Sweet-smelling? through from Cairncross Dock to Fisherman Islands being affected by foul and rotten JVI'r. BURNS: It was until this factory came odours polluting the homes regularly of an there. evening after 6 o'clock at night. It cannot always be fobbed off as an accident, because Mr. Lane: It might have been Ul you it seems to always occur after hours. It is came in. passing strange that plant generally breaks down after hours. Mr. BURNS: One of the funny problems about you, Mr. Lane, is that you never have If we are to talk about injurious affection any heart and soul where people are con­ and about people being injured by town­ cerned. You were knocking around the planning decisions, it is time we looked at town for years rolling drunks and you have environmental injuries that create financial lost any softness or decency that you once City of Brisbane [5 APRIL 1977] Town Planning, &c., Bill 2907

may have had. If you were concerned be a public right of appeal before land about the ordinary people, you would have of this kind could be alienated permanently found that in this area people-- and the way existing and proposed open space zoning has been handled in the plan. The TEMPORARY CHAI&I\1AN (Mr. Residential B or multi-unit zoning under the Kaus): Order! plan will be increased. It was too restrictive Mr. BURNS: If the honourable member in the way it was put forward by the were concerned about the ordinary people, he council and a limit was placed on the land would have found that in this area people so that the smallest area that could be and their families have been affected and developed for multi units was 32 perches. their property values are being affected, but We have an undertaking from the Minister I am pleased to see that the Liberal Party that the limit on the frontages will be spokesmen in this Parliament are making broadened. There is quite an iniquitous their attitude very clear. When the Liberal provision in the town plan relating to candidate runs next time, I will be reminding adjoining blocks, a proposal which is quite unrealistic. The Minister readily saw this the people of the attack on them by the when we discussed it with him and he has honourable member for Merthyr. taken action to have that eliminated also. (Time expired.) We have discussed the part of the plan that pertains to river set-backs and the Mr. LANE (Merthyr) (9.25 p.m.): I am elimination of non-conforming uses as it very pleased to enter the debate and to appears in the schedule of the Order in support the Minister on the introduction of Council under the Act. The Minister has the Bill to amend the City of Brisbane favourably received all of our suggestions Town Planning Act. First of all I have on these matters and is doing something a responsibility, on behalf of the metro­ about them. Before this plan becomes law politan members town plan committee, to it is necessary that the legislation under say a few words in this debate. which it is made be reviewed and brought The metropolitan Government members up to date so that it will be effective. committee, which was formed as a sub­ committee of the joint Government parties The Bill contains many improvements that some years ago to oversee the town plan we have asked of the Minister. They relate prepared by the Brisbane City Council, has to compensation, which we have sought for been one of the more active committees some time, and the formalising of the pro­ in this Parliament. It has carried out more visions relating to contributions or develop­ work than any other group in this place ment charges by the Brisbane City Council on the problems of the people and how they is contained in the Bill. We are very could be injuriously affected by the council's pleased with the hearing we have had .on heavy-handed planning. this matter and the proposals that are bemg For a number of years the committee put forward. was chaired by the honourable member for In future a register of non-conforming uses Mt. Gravatt, who did an excellent job. will be compiled on a voluntary basis. People Recently I became chairman of the com­ will be invited to contribute and register at mittee. I take this opportunity of thanking the city hall their non-conforming uses and the Minister for Local Government for the this will be done voluntarily. This is another way he has handled the City of Brisbane Town Plan. matter on which there has been agreement with the Minister. He sent the plan back to the Brisbane City Council some months ago with our There are some new and quite radical request to have it straightened out, redrawn, zonings of land which is understood to be redrafted and rewritten. The plan that open space. The new zone known as non­ appeared in the first instance really affected committed zone will go a long way towards the interests of the people, their rights to overcoming some of the misunderstandings property and many other rights they enjoyed. that take place and will establish a better The redrawn plan contains some slight legal position for those who in the past have improvements but it still contains many faults. held land that was in a non-urban zone Once again the plan has been examined and have had to fight the council through in detail by the Minister and his officers, the courts in order to establish a right to who have at all times been ready to dis­ make some use of that land. cuss its implications with the members of the metropolitan members town plan At the same time, there will be a zone committee. known as non-urban in which will be land We have sought a number of amendments that it is unlikely will be developed for any to the plan. I thank the Minister for his purpose. There will also be land that will undertakings on how the town plan will be be zoned clearly as future urban so that at changed before it receives the stamp of a glance people will be able to see exactly approval from the Governor in Council and where they stand in zoning matters. becomes or>e of the laws of this city. My main purpose in entering the debate The amendments we sought include such tonight was to pay a tribute to the Minister things as a better attitude towards sport who is surely one of the most broadminded and recreation zor>ing so that there would Ministers ever to hold the Local Government 2908 City of Brisbane [5 APRIL 1977] Town Planning, &c., Bill portfolio. He is also one of the most eo­ Mr. M. operative with metropolitan Government honourable members. m be Government Members: Hear, hear! be decided by members cils, not town planners, who are not Mr. LANE: I am pleased to is not an exact science. leagues acknowledge what I am I the ability required is on about a are very pleased with what has been par with that required for a second or third and we look forward to continued co­ year architecture course or possibly a quan­ operation with him in the future. Legislation tity surveyor's course. One can see two of this nature is always of a highly technical town planners in a city with completely nature and it may have a few wrinkles that different opinions. Each one thinks he is only trial and error will iron out. I think right, but the bloke who has the job in the the Minister accepts, as we do, that some shire is the one who decides what will or time between now and the next sittings, will not take place. I compare them with, possibly after the next election, when the say, a city engineer or a health surveyor. Government has been returned with an They are people who are dealing with an increased majority, we will be able to look exact science. They know what the State back and, in the light of trial and experience, by-laws are and can give an opinion on the perhaps make a few minor adjustments that spot about the standard sewerage by-laws or may then be necessary. the health requirements for a cafe or other development. But not so with town-planning; Mr. M. D. HOOPER (Townsville West) it is not an exact science. (9.33 p.m.): As a member of the Minister's committee, I realise that these amendments Contrary to what the honourable member are very desirable. As well as calling his for Archerfield suggested, I believe there committee together on several occasions, the should be some controlled development in Minister invited all Government members to our cities and shires. Once the town plan express their views on the proposed amend­ has been established and advertised and been ments. I know that they are very acceptable subjected to scrutiny by the public and to to Liberal members holding seats in Brisbane. appeal, it should remain as it is for a number of years and not be subject to revision, I want to pass some pertinent remarks because those things are too costly and too about town planners. In my opinion, town lengthy. With a change of town-planning, planners, under Government legislation, are all of a sudden there is a different set of possibly the most serious cancer inflicted on by-laws. I do not see why we cannot have local government by any government. a plan, for argument's sake, for a complete region taking in adjacent shires. A complete Mr. Katter: Well said! regional plan could be adopted, or even a State-wide plan, which is not subject to the whims of town planners who come along Mr. M. D. HOOPER: That is my opinion. every few years and try to change the whole I know from experience that that one man system. in any local authority has too much power. He seems to have more power than a mayor, The TEMPORARY CHAIRL\fAN (Mr. a shire chairman and council officers them­ Kaus): Order! There is too much audible selves. He decides, quite often arbitrarily conversation in the Chamber. and without reference to the elected council members, what will be done in the city or Mr. M. D. HOOPER: After all, we are a shire. I have received countless complaints free-enterprise Government and pride our­ over a number of years about people being selves on property ownership. Property knocked back by town planners who have owners are the bulk of the ratepayers. They said in effect, "You can't do that there here." are an ever-diminishing circle of people The wiser ones who have been knocked because circumstances have put home and back have gone to their elected representa­ property ownership out of the reach of tives and said, "I would like to have my many people. So all we are doing is making application advertised and considered by the it harder for property owners, the backbone people, subject to objection, and also con­ of any city or shire, to put money into their sidered by the council's committees. I want own city and develop it. All we are doing is them to say whether I should be allowed to making it harder for those people to pay proceed with this development." Too much for the so-called quality of life of the people power has been placed in the hands of town who are not ratepayers, the most vociferous planners. They cause innumerable delays. minority section in our community. We are Plans for development have to be advertised. imposing by State Government legislation The costs of making applications for develop­ requirements for inspectors to be appointed ment are considerable and all these require­ under the Clean Air Act and the Clean ments hold back progress. Water Act and to police various litter laws. Mr. K. 1. Hooper: What you are really Now we come to a new definition in the saying is that we should not stand in the Brisbane Town Plan which has been copied way of the land developer? in the present revision of the Townsville City of Brisbane [5 APRIL 1977] Town Planning, &c., Bill 2909

Town and that is non-urban -~vuu.u.<;o in the town plan are the ment. does "non-urban" mean? of the Brisbane Citv obviously means that a cannot build Party. · there now or in the That is what "non-urban" sounds like to but then we Government Members interjected. find under the of non- Mr. HOUSTON: It is their Bill that is urban areas can conduct a before the Assembly. agriculture or some­ thing of that nature, but we certainly cannot Government Members interjected. have any workshops, factories, rail sidings or Mr. HOUSTON: The approval of the any other commercial or industrial develop­ town plan is directly in the hands of the ment. I know that in Townsville over the Minister. last few years several thousand acres of land on the south side of the Ross River have been Government Members interjected. bought by the Townsville Harbour Board, Mount Isa Mines and other companies for The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! major industrial developments in the future­ Mr. HOUSTON: Honourable members developments which will cause a tremendous opposite do not Hke hearing the truth. They amount of building activity and provide prefer to go out and use their own half­ employment for hundreds of people in the truths in their propaganda. What will be next couple of decades. Yet all of a sudden approved shortly is the town plan that has this land is now zoned non-urban. Why is been approved by the Minister. No other it that the town planner can come along person approved of it. after 10 years and say that this land should be non-urban because it has been acquired Mr. Gygar: What a lot of hogwash! by industry for future development? To my mind these people should appeal as soon as The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! possible to the Director of Local Govern­ Mr. Gygar: I am afraid I have got you on ment, and the Minister personally if needs toast. be, to see that this type of development is removed unless there is ample evidence to Mr. HOUSTON: The honourable member show that the land cannot be used for any has not got me on toast. I do not want to possible development in the future. Too be nasty to him, but it is only on rare occa­ many revisions are taking place. They are sions that he graces this Chamber with his costly and are causing too much hardship presence. Now that he is here, I suggest that in the community. he keep quiet and he might learn something about the matter. I commend the Minister for the alterations After his renowned recent speech, the he has proposed to the City of Brisbane Town Minister has put the wind up every Liberal Planning Act, but I feel that there should in this city. None of them knows which of be similar amendments to the Local Govern­ them will finally disappear. A few moments ment Act so that town planners will be ago we heard the member for Merthyr say­ stripped of some of their powers and more ing, "Oh, Russ, you are a great fellow!" Of power placed in the hands of the elected course he would say it! He does not want representatives of these cities and shires. Russ to be responsible for his losing his seat. Now we have the honourable member-the Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (9.39 p.m.): I sHent member-- support the Leader of the Opposition in his Mr. K. J. Hooper: Chadie Chaplin. submissions. I am very happy to support him because it has been one of the better Mr. HOUSTON: I know that is his nick­ contributions made in this Chamber during name, but what seat does he represent? this session. One of the factors that I think we have to consider when we talk about the Mr. K. J. Hooper: Stafford. town plan is to put it and the responsibility Mr. HOUSTON: The honourable member for its authorisation into the correct per­ for Stafford also says-- spective. Unfortunately, every time Govern­ ment members come across some part of Mr. Gygar: Bulimba will go. the town plan they do not like, they blame the Brisbane City Council for it. At every Mr. HOUSTON: If Bulimba goes, I will council election, Government members are tell the public that the Government is scared very happy to lay the shortcomings in the of me and wants to get rid of me. Don't town plan or its application at the doorstep worry about it. I wiH find a seat, because of the Labor aldermen. the people on the south side of the river look upon Mr. Burns and me as their only The first point I wish to make is that the saviours against the present Government. town-planning legislation is the responsibility Let me return to what I was saying before of the Government. After hearing fue hon­ the rude interjections. The City of Brisbane ourable member for TownsviHe, I should Town Plan wiH be that approved by the Min­ say it is very obvious that the Liberal mem­ ister. For the edification of the honourable bers of this Assembly are also responsible member for Stafford, I point out that the for the City of Brisbane Town Plan. So any aldermen of the Brisbane City Council, 2910 City of Brisbane [5 APRIL 1977] Town Planning, &c., Bill through the Planning Committee, submitted there. In some instances the department a town plan for the city of Brisbane. Time claimed that the industries were associated was allowed for objections; the objections with harbours and marine works. That were considered by the aldermen, and the may be a technical point, but the fact is plan was amended. By law, every objection that overnight these people found that a to the town plan has to be passed on to the change in zoning next door to them had a Minister. I ask the Minister whether that is tremendous dertimental effect on their wel­ right. fare. Mr. Hinze: Yes. I have no doubt at all that the value of their properties was reduced, not because Mr. HOUSTON: He, and he alone-per­ of what happened within their zone but haps helped by the Liberals in this Chamber; because of something that happened next that is for him to say-decides on the plan door in the adjacent zoning. The contribut­ that will be approved. It may or may not ing factor was, of course, noise. I know conform completely with that submitted by that the noise pollution Bill may be of help the aldermen of the Brisbane City Council. but I am not sure that that Bill will ever The law lays down that the Minister has the become law in this State. right to change the town plan as submitted provided he does so in conformity with the The Leader of the Opposition mentioned objections submitted. Again the Minister nods the Brisbane Abattoirs, a Government his head in agreement. Therefore, the town instrumentality. When the abattoirs were plan under which the Br.jsbane City Council down near the river and certain methods is working is the town plan approved by the of disposal of offal and waste were used, Minister and the Government. there was not a continuous bad smell coming through the suburbs of Murarrie, Morning­ Mr. Gygar: Put up by Sleeman and his side and Bulimba. mates. Mr. Hinze: The Minister for Primary Mr. HOUSTON: The honourable member Industries and I visited the abattoir yesterday. cannot get out from under on that one. Mr. Gygar interjected. Mr. HOUSTON: And did the Minister find the smell there? The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. Hinze: Most definitely. Mr. HOUSTON: As I said, I support the Mr. HOUSTON: What the Leader of the submissions made by the Leader of the Opposition and I want the Minister to do is Opposition, so I shall not delay the Com­ take some action to stop it. mittee by repeating them. As to injurious affection-! support the Mr. Hinze: We are going to. principle, but if a block of land in a par­ Mr. HOUSTON: I hope so. I realise ticular zone reverts from A zone to B zone that this matter is not covered by the Bill, the person who owns the block is entitled to but in this the introductory stage I am sug­ compensation. The council may be inter­ gesting to the Minister that when the Bill ested in receiving compensation in one form is next amended he look at the effects of or another if land that was B zone is zoned something that happens in one zone on some­ A and the owner then finds himself in the one who lives in an adjoining zone. I ask position where he can capitalise quite sub­ him to look specifically at the effect of some­ stantially on the increase in value that flows thing that happens in a noxious-industry zone from that new zoning. on someone living in a residential zone. In I support the comments of the Leader of fact, my idea of town-planning is that resi­ the Opposition on injurious affection and dential zones should not be allowed beside the consequences that flow from it. The noxious-industry zones. Bill provides that if a person is affected by Mr. Hinze: We all agree; but what do you something that occurs within his zone com­ do when you have got them? pensation can be paid. I suggest to the Min­ ister that if a person is affected by a change Mr. HOUSTON: This is occurring more of zoning outside his zone, he should be and more. The construction of the new compensated. abattoir is a typical example. The Minister As an illustration-people on Balmoral has said he will take action, and I accept it. Heights, in my electorate, built their homes However, other industries are located in the a few years ago when the ground was sold area. as residential land. They were told that One of the things that worry me is the the open space between Lytton Road and cost of water and sewerage charges to the Thynne Road and the Brisbane River was people. Uncontrolled development is per- held by the Department of Harbours and mitted. When travelling on any of the Marine for harbours and marine purposes. main arterial roads near Brisbane we come They bu.ilt lovely homes on their blocks to large tracts of undeveloped land and of land. Some time later the Government then areas that have been subdivided and decided that the land would be transferred developed. In these circumstances water, to the Lands Deoartment, which subdivided electricity, gas and telephone services pass it' and allowed industries to be established undeveloped areas. When a city is being City of Brisbane [5 APRIL 1977] Town Planning, &c., Bill 2911 developed, people who hold such unproduc­ One of the problems that even these pro­ tive land should have to contribute to the visions may not come to grips with is the cost of the amenities which they will even­ fact that, when in a town plan something tually take advantage of. How often do we is proposed (even if it is not likely to manifest see a development take place, with the buyers itself in reality, such as a possible freeway paying for water and other facilities and corridor or something of that nature), even then a more central block being developed with all the denials that come from the by a different developer who saves all these relevant departments, the effect on land values development costs? This may benefit buyers is real and lasting. The responsibility on who purchase the land but it does not in the shoulders of town planners, whether in any way help those who bought land in the city council or a Government authority, is the older subdivision. enormous. The moment they draw a line, the moment they say a word, they create When I rose I did not want to cnt!CISe an impression in the minds of people, and the Bill but I wished to clear up some that impression governs values of and attit­ points about responsibility for town-planning udes towards property throughout the affected as I see it. When the Minister is con­ area. sidering how people are affected by freeways and other road developments, which are Mr. Houston: Freeways reduce values, part of a town plan, the Government should don't they? be responsible for any loss in value of Mr. DOUMANY: I will not reply to the homes. I know of many very good homes honourable member's interjection. that are free from noise and motor vehicle pollution that will be affected as soon as Mr. Houston: Why? the new port is built. Heavy traffic will be flowing where presently there is only Mr. DOUMANY: Because it is an light traffic. Apparently the town plan does entirely subjective matter. I like driving not take this matter into account so far on the freeways, just as he does. I have as compensation is concerned. I suggest noticed him driving on the freeway very to the Minister that this should be looked often. at when the town plan is next reviewed. Mr. Houston interjected.

Mr. DOUMANY (Kurilpa) (9.53 p.m.): I The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The wish to support the Bill and some of the honourable member for Bulimba has had his comments made by the honourable member opportunity. for Merthyr on behalf of the metropolitan members' committee on the town plan. The Mr. DOUMANY: Leaving the subject of Minister is to be commended on bringing compensation, which I believe has been dealt this legislation before us because a great with very substantially by the Minister in deal of tidying up is needed. Undoubtedly these provisions, I list as the next important the two attempts at town-planning by the step that he is taking the introduction of Brisbane City Council in the past 18 months the voluntary registration of non-conforming have highlighted some of the deficiences that uses. Undoubtedly, this is a most important this Bill seeks to overcome. decision. What the city council had in mind in its town plan would have locked people I shall not traverse all the points made into a strait-jacket. The Minister has by the Minister, but I intend to deal with removed that strait-jacket. a couple of key areas-areas of prime I come now to what is probably the most importance. The first relates to compen­ important provision of the legislation-that sation. In dealing with the Brisbane City relating to unlawful conditions. This is prob­ Council compensation undoubtedly has been ably one of the most notorious items to one of the greyest and vaguest areas. It blot the record of the Brisbane City Council has virtually been a case of survival o£ over the last decade or so. What virtuallv the fittest under the law of the jungle. Those amounts to blackmail has been exercised time who have been fleet of foot and able to after time in the most blatant fashion. Devel­ move quickly enough perhaps have gained opment and improvement of property have some satisfaction, but the majority of the been made almost impossible for many, many community who are inclined to put their individuals and companies. In some situa­ faith or trust in those in authority have been tions, unlawful condition after unlawful con­ faced with a frightful situation. dition has been imposed. The very strange One of the most important effects of feature of it all is that very rarely has the this legislation is that it puts the onus back council committed itself to paper on these on the Brisbane City Council where it pro­ conditions. Instead, it has verbally commun­ perly belongs. This does away with the icated with them and made it quite clear jungle-like aspect of the existing situation that, if they are not confirmed in writing by where the individual has been at the mercy the applicant- or the whim of those who, without any Mr. Brown: As an offer. thought of repercussions, have placed lines on maps and done many things that have Mr. DOUMANY: Yes, if they are not seriously affected the value of land and confirmed in writing as an offer, then it is assets. made clear that nothing can happen. 2912 City of Brisbane, &c., Bill [5 APRIL 1977) Constitution Act, &c., Bill

Let us have a look at some of the amounts in residential B, but residential A is high-rise involved. For instance, on an improvement and residential C is residential only, so no worth $250,000, it has not been unusual for matter where a person lives in a residential conditions amounting to perhaps $60,000 or C area he cannot build granny flats or other $70,000 to be imposed. If that does not con­ flats. tribute to inflation, I do not know what does. I support the remarks of the honourable This has been a blot on the record of local member for Townsville, who said that town government in this city. planners have too much to say and too much Mr. Houston: You're making it up. authority. Unfortunately in our area town planners apply unreasonable conditions on Mr. DOUMANY: I will not respond to people wishing to build. They tell them the honourable member for Bulimba. From what colour fence they must erect or what the grin on his face, I know he is in a very type of tree or shrub must be grown on their playful mood tonight. I do not have to make land. This is going too far. it up. The facts are there. I will not bore In our area we are not able to build the Committee with a recitation of the facts, flats to house our aged people or pensioners because anyone who says I am inventing it or whoever we are looking after. Only last is, quite frankly, making a laughing-stock of week the G!adstone City Council issued sum­ himself outside the Chamber. Some areas monses against people with caravans in their have really been exploited by the Brisbane yards to house their parents. This is a great City Council in this respect. All sorts of imposition on these people when housing fictitious conditions have been placed, for accommodation is not available in a grow­ instance, on the movement of water mains ing city such as Gladstone. I am quite and the repositioning of footpaths. We have certain that between 100 and 200 people are witnessed the enormous saga of underground waiting for Housing Commission accommoda­ electricity mains. Worse than that we have tion which cannot be provided. What do we had demands for the dedication of land free do now? The city council has issued sum­ of cost in respect of very vague proposals, monses and these people will be taken to such as the widening of a road that is not court and removed from their sons and confirmed at that point of time. These are daughters. They will not even be allowed enormous impositions. to live in their yards. I think that is quite In one recent case that I know of, out of wrong. It is not the rich and those who demands that amounted to some $30,000, no can afford to pay for better accommodation more than $1,000 worth was legal or lawful. who are living in caravans. Those in cara­ What the Minister is doing in this Bill is vans are there because of their poor circum­ most admirable and timely because we must stances. put an end to this sort of nonsense and give - We have heard recently that a committee a fair go to genuine, bona fide developers is being set up to grant a franchise that wiU who are going to improve this city and take power from a local authority and enable provide business and employment oppor­ a company to override it and do as it wishes. tunities. Without going into that matter at this stage, It is about time there was some consistency. I want to say that I am very concerned about In two cases, with the properties only yards the overriding of the powers of a local apart, several of the demands made in one authority. I join with my leader in saying case have been omitted in the other. They that adequate compensation must be paid do not know what they are doing. should industry interfere with areas into which it moves. The history of this goes back to the Lord Mayor who dominated the scene a little Hon. R. J. IDNZE (South Coast-Minister while ago. I believe it was a very useful for Local Government and Main Roads) method of financing a disastrous form of bud­ (10.7 p.m.), in reply: I thank all honourable geting. I am sure that the Minister will members for their contributions to the debate put an end to this inflationary type of exer­ on this Bill. I propose to reserve my reply, cise and I commend him for it. which will be in detail, till tomorrow. Mr. PREST (Port Curtis) (10.2 p.m.): I Progress reported. rise to support the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition in CONSTITUTION ACT AND ANOTHER their concern about the City of Brisbane ACT AMENDMENT BILL Town Plan. I, too, am very concerned not INITIATION IN COMMITTEE only for the city of Brisbane but for the whole of the State as to what compensation (The Acting Chairman of Committees, Mr. may be paid by companies should they Gunn, Somerset, in the chair) become a problem in a certain area. Hon. J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah Tonight and previously honourable mem­ -Premier) (10.9 p.m.): I move- bers have spoken of town plans and what they "That a Bill be introduced to amend the mean. Only a couple of nights ago one Constitution Act of 1867 (as amended of the metropolitan members said that we from time to time) in certain particulars should allow sons and daughters to build and the Legislative Assembly Act 1867- granny fiats to house their parents. Unfor­ 1971 in a certain particular and for another tunately, under a town plan, that is allowable purpose." Constitution Act and Another [5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill 2913

I am sure honourable members will recall my range of activities of the State Government introducing legislation in December to Insurance Office and the large area where its declare that certain Crown appointments were operations cannot fairly be described as Crown not to be taken as offices or places of profit activities, it has been decided that members under the Crown. That legislation, the Crown will not be precluded from performing ser­ Appointments Declaratory Act 1976, met the vices for or on behalf of the State Govern­ situation at the time. But I then did indicate ment Insurance Office. that it was regarded as a holding operation A provision has been inserted for the pur­ only and I undertook to introduce more com­ plete and definitive legislation during this ses­ poses of making it plain that attendance at sion. The Bill I am now introducing is a a court in obedience to court process does result of that undertaking. Its purpose is to not constitute the performing of services for amend the Constitution Act 1867-1976 and or on behalf of the Crown whether or not the Legislative Assembly Act 1867-1971 in witness's expenses are payable. The Parlia­ certain respects. ment will have power in minor circum­ stances, where there has been no conscious The amendment to the Constitution Act is breach of the law on the part of any mem­ concerned with the relationship of members ber, to determine that no disqualification of Parliament to the Crown. When I intro­ should take place. duced the previous legislation I a

I have spent some time looking into this the Act have not, to my mind, given any matter, and a very good report was released protection to the public, and I think the in 1975 by a joint committee of ,the Federal public believes that the Acts suggest that Parliament on pecuniary interests of mem­ you and I, Mr. Gunn, and everyone else who bers of Parliament. Indeed, I think it assists sits in this Assembly will have no financial us to set out clearly what the solutions may interest in affairs that will be debated in this be. Most of us can see the problems, and I Chamber, or if we have, we will declare those think most of us could be worried that we interests if we are involved in debating them in might find ourselves in a position in which the Cabinet room, or we will not accept any we could breach the Act or the law without office of profit through the Crown; in other realising that we were doing so, especially words, we will not be bound in any way to people who are involved in a profession. the Crown and so be forced to endorse the Crown's oprmon on matters. The Jaw I look first at the existing law and its does provide a number of loopholes for a inadequacies, and there are three relevant shrewd operator, who could contract for sources of authority which in some measure services equally guilty of conflict of interest regulate the conduct of members of Par­ and duty but not guilty because the contract liament, public offices and pecuniary inter­ is not for goods or chattels. ests. These are sections 6 and 7 of the Con­ stitution Acts, 1867 to 1961 (I should imag­ I went back through section 5 of the ine that we are amendmg that), section 5 of Officials in Parliament Act and studied some the Officials in Parliament Act 1896-1975, of the effects of it, and then began to look and rule 158 of the Standing Rules and at the extent to which the law applies, the Orders of the Queensland Legislative principles behind it, and how it has been Assembly. As I understand it, these pro­ applied in the past. When one looks back, visions have been adopted from the provis­ one finds some rather strange cases. Mr. ions of the House of Commons Disqualifica­ Justice Barwick, in the Webster case, cites tion Act of 1782, which in turn had its the case of Sir Stuart Samuel in 1913, genesis in legislation as early as 1696. where it was said of the principle involved- "Itself declares that it was made to Section 6 of the Constitution Act is preserve the freedom and independence of headed "Disqualifying contractors and Parliament: and the mischief guarded persons interested in contracts". It says, in against is the sapping of that freedom and effect, that any person who directly or independence by members being admitted indirectly undertakes, executes, holds, or to profitable contracts." enjoys in the whole or in part, any contract or agreement for or on account of the Public Whilst that is in the language of 1913, the Service shall be incapable of being elected or principle or the spirit of it is there today. of sitting or voting as a member of the In 1880 in the case of Miles v. Legislative Assembly during the time he shall Mcllwraith, the Full Court held that section execute, hold or enjoy any such contract. 6 applied equally to members of the Legis­ And if any person being a member of such lative Assembly becoming interested in con­ Assembly shall enter into any such contract tracts as well as to persons seeking election. or agreement or, having entered into it, shall So it was not only those who became mem­ continue to hold it, his seat shall be declared bers of Parliament; it applied equally to by the said Legislative Assembly to be void those seeking election. In that case the accordingly. Section 7, under the heading M.L.A. concerned was merely a trustee. "Election of disqualified persons void", lays down a penalty for sitting or voting. The case of Bowman v. Hood in 1889 is authority for the proposition that a member Sections 6 and 7 at first glance appear to who holds an office in respect of which fees be all-embracing. However, in 1959 a are payable but who does not accept such Country-Liberal Government in this State fees holds an office of profit. So even though introduced an amendment that severely lim­ he does not get fees to which he is entitled ited the scope of section 6 by providing that he is said to hold an office of profit. only contracts or agreements for the furn­ ishing or providing of wares and merchandise In the case of Hodel v. Cruckshank in to be used or employed in the service of the 1889, Chief Justice Lilley ruled that the public were covered. In other words, certain office of a pound-keeper under the services were not covered, but it covered the Impounding Acts is an office of profit under provisions of wares and merchandise-goods. the Crown. The pound-keeper under that Act was not a salaried officer and was only Section 7 A also provides loopholes for entitled to fees if and when he received leases with the Crown, any agreement relat­ impounded cattle. It was ruled that he held ing to mining, any insurance agreement an office of profit. under the Workers' Compensation Acts 1916 to 1959, and any contract relating to loans Dr. Lockwood: What about the poor blokes to the Crown involving the repayment of on the rabbit board? interest and principal. Without a doubt, there are few contracts other than those Mr. BURNS: I am coming to them now. provided for by the preceding limitation that In the case of the Warrego election would be a source of conflict of interest petition (Bowman v. Hood) in 1889 it was and duty. In other words, the provisions in ruled that a member of the Central. Rabbit Constitution Act and Another [5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill 2915

Board held an office of profit under the individual members of Parliament as to Crown although he received no fees-no whether or not they should register the remuneration in regard to his position on the actual value of any shareholdings. stock board and was only entitled to be paid a fee for each attendance and travelling "3. The committee recommends that expenses. members of Parliament disclose the loca­ tion of any realty in which they have a It has always been a general principle of beneficial interest. our law that a member of Parliament is excluded from holding an office of profit "4. The committee recommends that under the Crown and that, if a member does, members of Parliament declare the names his seat shall be declared void and vacant. of all companies of which they are directors. The principle behind the law that no mem­ ber of this House should hold an office of "5. The committee recommends that profit under the Crown is founded on the sponsored travel be declared. need to preserve this House as a people's House from the influence of the Crown. "6. The committee recommends that members of Parliament should provide the One of the problems inherent in this law information required in the form of a is the ease of evasion. It is like locks on the statutory declaration to a Parliamentary doors of a home. They are there to keep Registrar who shall be directly responsible out an honest crook. Anyone who is deter­ to the President of the Senate and the mined to get in will succeed in getting in, no Speaker of the House of Representatives. matter what locks are on the doors. He will It is reasonable and proper to allow the break the windows if he really wants to get public to have access to the information in. If these laws are made, they should be disclosed on establishing to the satisfaction difficult to evade or get around. of the Registrar and with the approval of Any member wishing to have outside the President or Speaker that a bona fide financial interest can, through smart estate­ reason exists for such access. These statu­ planning, easily hide away and divest himself tory declarations should be in loose-leaf of direct ownership through either a com­ form so as to enable members of the public pany infrastructure or some other type of to inspect any relevant details in the statu­ trust infrastructure. Again there is a need tory declaration filed by a particular for us to have a look at it. senator or member. Upon any request for access being received by the Registrar the I thought we should look at the recom­ senator or member concerned should be mendations of the Joint Committee of notified personally and acquainted with the Pecuniary Interest of Members of Parlia­ nature of the request and informed of the ment. It states- details of the inquiry before such access is "A solution can best be achieved by gmnted. The senator or member thus coupling the avoidance of conflicts provi­ notified may, within seven days, submit a sions of the Constitution with provisions case to the Registrar opposing the granting which require not divestment of potentially of access. On receipt of such submission, conflicting pecuniary interests but dis­ the Registrar, with the approval of the closure of those interests, the desirable President or Speaker, shall make a decision extent of disclosure, the form in which it from which no appeal will lie. should be made." "7. The committee recommends that What is required is a compromise between Ministers of the Crown, on assuming protecting the privacy of individual members office, should resign any directorship and of Parliament and protecting the interests of dispose of any shares in a public or pri­ the public in ensuring that the decisions are vate company which might be seen to be not being made for improper motives. affected by decisions taken within the Minister's sphere of responsibility. It is worth while looking at the recom­ mendations of this report. "8. The committee recommends that a joint standing committee of the Australian They were- Parliament should be established with " 1. Consequently the committee recom­ power to supervise generally the operation mends that the filing of a copy of one's of the register and modify, on the authority income tax return would constitute neither of the Parliament, the declaration require­ an adequate nor an appropriate form of ments applicable to members of Parlia­ registration of pecuniary interests. ment. It is not envisaged Liat such a committee would sit frequently, but would "2. The committee recommends that merely be ready to function when a situ­ members of Parliament should disclose ation arises which calls for resolution. the names of all companies in which they have a beneficial interest in shareholdings, "9. The committee further recommends no matter how insignificant, whether held that the Parliamentary Registrar should as an individual, a member of another be the clerk of the Joint Standing Com­ company or partnership, or through a mittee, and should be appointed by the trust. The committee further recommends President of the Senate and the Speaker that it should be left to the discretion of of the House of Representatives." 2916 Constitution Act and Another [5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill

The Committee then wholly endorsed the all the recommendations, because they view of the House of Commons Select Com­ go on and on, but those are the type of mittee on Members' Interests when it stated recommendations we should be looking at in its 1974 report, at page 12- today. "Under no circumstances should the There is general disquiet in the community Registrar and his staff be seen as enforce­ about politicians, political parties and Parlia­ ment officers, with powers to inquire into ment itself. Many people in the community the circumstances of members. The under­ are not happy with the operation of Par­ lying principle behind the register is that liament. Many of them believe that we members are responsible for their entries: are all tarred with the one brush, that we The House will trust them in this respect, are all crooks and shysters; that there is but at the same time such trust involves some reason for being suspicious about a obligations. As the Clerk of the House member of Parliament; that once he is pointed out, 'the ultimate sanction behind elected he becomes a crook and a shyster. the obligation upon members to register would be the fact that it was imposed It is our duty to try to frame laws that by resolution of the House . . .' " will help to dignify this Parliament and It then went on to make further recom­ improve its standing in the community to mendations and included in them was a ensure that people not only see that mem­ sample statutory declaration which I think bers of Parliament and Ministers of the was quite a good one. It also suggested Crown are honest, but that they appear to an extension of the range of pecuniary be honest or it is patently shown that they interests, and these were- are honest. If they are not honest in their (A) Agreements performed, goods sup­ dealings or are accepting offices of profit plied or services rendered of which the or are dealing in matters privately that person in question had no knowledge, and could be affected by their jobs in Parlia­ of which he could not reasonably have ment, something can be done about them. been expected to know. It is necessary for us to look not only at offices of profit, but also at different sections Mr. Moore: Is this from the C.P.A. of the Constitution Act and the Legislative journal? Assembly Act and Standing Order 158 which says- Mr. BURNS: No, this is from a printed report. It is worth while reading. No Member Pecuniarily Interested May Vote. Mr. Moore: I just wondered. I read it somewhere. "A Member shall not be entitled to vote either in the House or in a Com­ Mr. BURNS: It is a printed report. mittee upon any Question in which he It went on to say that agreements with has a direct pecuniary interest, and the the Public Service to which the person in vote of any Member so interested shall question is, or was, not a direct party be disallowed." should not be counted, that agreements not originally made directly with the person in This Standing Order follows the rule of the question, but the benefit of which he takes House of Commons, which was clearly spelled by way of assignment, devise or similar out in 1811 by the Speaker, Mr. Abbott, means, and of which he divests himself when he said- within a reasonable time also should not "This interest must be direct pecuniary be counted. It then referred to agreements interest and separately belonging to the for the provision by the Crown of goods, persons whose votes were questioned, and services or other benefits on the same terms not in common with the rest of His and conditions as they are made available Majesty's subjects, or in a matter of State to the public generally. I do not think policy." that a Minister or a member of Parlia­ ment should be treated differently from any As far as I am able to determine, there member of the public. It also referred to have not been any challenges in this Parlia­ loans made to the Crown. Why should not ment based on Standing Order 158. There a member invest his money in Government have been some in the House of Represent­ loans if he wants to? Reference was also made atives, but in each case the motion based on to compensation settlements, including pay­ its Standing Order 196 has been negatived ments for property compulsorily acquired. or ruled out of order. If we do not make such provisions, we might take someone's land for railway pur­ I think that this Standing Order is severely poses, decide to compensate him and then limited in its operation, because it is very find that we place him in an invidious posi­ rarely used. Indeed, its operation is based tion as a member of Parliament if the pro­ upon the Speaker ruling upon it. What vision is not framed properly. happens when the Speaker has to rule on The matter of agreements performed or it? In 1923 the Speaker in the House of services rendered of a casual and a transient Representatives, Mr. Watt, made a ruling. kind, where the value of the transaction or In 1934 the Speaker, the Honourable G. J. the amount of the fee involved is relatively Bill, after having been asked to rule on this small, was also dealt with. I will not read issue whether certain members who had been Constitution Act and Another [5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill 2917

participants in the distribution of money be rushed through the Parliament to clear raised by means of legislation were in order up the sins or actions of Ministers or mem­ to vote, said that he had no knowledge of bers in the past. If those things are clearly the private business of members and he was spelt out in the Act, we will have further therefore not in a position to know "whether submissions to make at the second-reading certain members have, or have not, a pecun­ stage. iary interest in the Bill". Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba) (10.34 p.m.): I think that is what just about every I listened with great interest to the intro­ Speaker placed in that position would say. duction of the Bill by the Premier. When If a member said, "I rise on a matter of he began, I think he used the words that privilege. I draw your attention to Standing members were to have no patronage from Order 158. I believe that such-and-such the Crown. I thought, "This is something a member has a pecuniary interest in a we have been looking for and waiting for for particular matter and he has voted on it in some time." I thought, in other words, that this Parliament today.", I think the Speaker it would clearly indicate that members of would normally answer, "I do not know what Parliament were elected to do their job here. he owns. I have no knowledge about what I .think we have to understand that no-one sort of business interest he has. Under forces us to become members of Parliament. those circumstances, I am not prepared to We freely stand for election. rule on it." Mr. Moore: It is an office of profit. So we have to lay down very clearly in any It does not have ,to be a profit-just an legislation-and we are interested in looking office of profit. Just get that into your thick at the legislation-rules that will not only skull. protect this Parliament but also that will conform to the famous lines (and I took Mr. HOUSTON: I think we can forecast the words down, because I thought I should that this is the honourable member's last quote them for inclusion in "Hansard") of term and that he is worried about it. I can Mr. Justice Montague Smith in 1869 in the assure him that the Opposition appreciates case of Royse v. Bir!ey, when he spoke of his finer points and certainly would not let the 1782 Act in these terms- him starve in the years to come. "I cannot help thinking that it would be When the public elect a member of Parlia­ very desirable that ·this Act should be ment they believe that he has a full-time revised because it certainly appears to me job and expect him to carry it out with to be totally inapplicable to the present diligence and sincerity. There are sufficiently state of commerce, and that it really pro­ well-versed people in the community to fill vides a pitfall into which men who wish any position. There is no position that to walk uprightly and according to law needs the services of an elected member may unwittingly tumble." of Parliament. I am thinking of positions on boards and pos·itions with semi-governmental I think that that indeed is a point that we establishments and the like which the ought to make-that the law has to be Premier has indicated will not be exempt framed in such a way that it is not out to under this Bill. I have no fight with that at entrap members; that it is out to lay down all. guide-lines that are clearly spelt out for members so they know what the law is. If When a person stands for Parliament, he they break the law, we will then not have to does so of his own free wHl. He hopes to be rush through any more Bills to allow them elected. Surely when he stands he should be to continue as members of Parliament. If prepared to give his full time and energy to they break the law, we ought to make it the job on hand. He would hope, of course, very clear that the provisions of the law will to be a member of the Government and be implemented and that if they transgress would also hope to be given the responsibility the laws we are now enacting, they will be of a Minister. He should be prepared to treated like every other citizen of the com­ divorce himself from other remunerations munity and lose their seat, because that is that normally he would be entitled to but what the penalty is. It should be emphasised for his decision to stand for election to this that we will not be rushing Bills through Assembly. Once he does that, that is the the Parliament to backdate legislation as we decision he makes and he should stand by it. did in the two Bills last year and in the When I heard the Premier's opening Percy Raymund Smith Act in 1971. We remarks, 1 felt that this was it. But he went cannot continue to ask the people of Queens­ on to start listing exemptions. In every case land to accept the position that we rush Bills the exemption was a professional man such through this Parliament-or, rather, that the as a doctor or a barrister. Many people in Government rushes them through the Pm·!ia­ the community who are not professional ment. It was not the Opposition, because people are just as important in the overall we opposed each of them. I refer to the running of our society. I can imagine, as Bills designed to look after the Government's the Premier said, a doctor being a member friends, and to alter the law to suit people of a hospital board. In these modern days who have broken the law. When this Bill of radiology, why not have a qualified becomes law, we ought to make it very clear radiologist on the board, a qualified elec­ that there will be no more Acts that will trician or somebody else? I believe that all 2918 Constitution Act and Another [5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill of these positions could be filled by people Parliament because they realise that legisla­ other than the 82 members of this Assembly. tion controlling the activities of local authori­ If we are going to do our job properly, there ties is, quite rightly, here in the State House, should be no exemptions. many State members would like to enter the Federal Parliament. We do not say to mem­ The Premier mentioned Federal elections. bers of local authorities who nominate for I refer now to something of which I have election to this Parliament, "Your seat is in practical experience-the person who wishes jeopardy. You will be out if you do not win to stand for election to the Federal or State the State seat." We allow them, quite rightly, Government. If he is a public servant, he has to stand as aldermen or councillors for State to resign. But it is difficult to know when seats and, if they are elected, in most cases the resignation should take effect. If he they resign their local authority positions resigns before the result of the election is when their term of office expires. It is rare known and he is not elected, he becomes one to find a person carrying on as both a State of the unemployed and his job has to be member and a local authority representative advertised. If he res,igns after he is elected, beyond the time of the next local authority he runs the risk of losing his seat. What happens is that he takes the risk and resigns election. on the Friday prior to the election? The The point that I am making is that if we result of the election may not be known for want to improve the State's representation in weeks afterwards. I think the resignation both the Senate and the House of Represen­ should take effect at the time of the declara­ tatives of the Federal Parliament, we shmJld tion of the poll and he is elected to Parlia­ send there men and women who have had ment. He should not receive double wages State Government experience. I believe that during the period between the Saturday of they should come through this Parliament. the election and perhaps when he is declared Why, then, should it be made nearly impos­ elected, which could be two or three weeks sible for them to do so? To become even a later under the preferential voting system. candidate for election to the Federal Parlia­ Some years ago the honourable member ment, a State member has to resign his seat. for Mansfield won the seat of Hawthorne by At the present time, a by-election can then four votes. It was a long time before it was be held to fill that vacancy. The member known that he had won. His opponent was who has nominated then has either to win the not a public servant but he could well have Federal seat, which means in many cases the been. In that case he would have been out difficult task of defeating a sitting member, of work for that period. That would have or take the risk of finding himself out of the been the position under the law as it then State House because his seat has been filled was. I suggest that a person standing for a following a by-election. State or Federal seat should be given some latitude by law so that he runs no Disk of Mr. Gygar: Isn't it correct that there is a being caught in such a situation. It was provision that allows a member to be re­ claimed by a member on one occasion that I appointed to his seat without election? was very close to the mark. I assure honour­ able members that that was not the position. Mr. HOUSTON: No, there is no such pro­ I happened to know what the law was at that vision in this State. The full procedure has time because I had stood on the previous to be followed. occasion as a candidate for a Fedeml elec­ torate. What the Premier now proposes goes part of the way to what I suggest. He says that I should now like to make some remarks if a member stands for a Federal seat and about State members who seek Federal loses, there will not be a by-election until rep1esentation. Constantly in this Parliament after the Federal seat is determined. That over the years, from well before my time at least allows the defeated State member a and over the years that I have been here, chance to recontest his State seat. 'But even there has been criticism of the Federal Par­ that would make a man or a woman think liament and Federal parliamentarians over twice before forsaking the substance for the decisions made in Canberra. I have always shadow. If there are to be in the Federa,l felt that one of the great weaknesses in the House members of all parties-I am not Federal system is that far too many Federal speaking in party-political terms-with State members know little or nothing about State Government experience, some consideration Parliaments, State legislation and State will have to be given to what I am suggesting. activities. I refer particularly to younger State mem­ bers. As I think the Premier indicated earlier, Mr. Gygar: You are right on there. I do not think that this will apply to him or to me. Our time of thinking of going into the Mr. HOUSTON: Of course I am, as usual. Federal Parliament is long since past, but the When a person has had experience in the point is that I think it would be a great State House, he realises that the real power thing for our younger members if we could of Government is the financial power and quite honourably facilitate the opportunity that, whether he likes it or not, is in Can­ for them to seek Federal office because it berra. Just as active and successful local would be to the advantage of this State of government members seek to enter State ours. I would like to see them given leave Constitution Act and Another [5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill 2919

of absence from the State Parliament. If a become the accepted practice in this State. member is sick and can produce a doctor's I believe that in this State the Crown refers certificate, we give him leave of absence to the Crown in right of the State of Queens­ from the Parliament, and quite rightly. I land only and does not, as some people have have not worked this out in detail, but in tried to tell us, refer to the Commonwealth general I would like to see a member given of Australia. There is no doubt that the leave of absence from this Parliament to medical practitioners in this Assembly contest a Federal seat, and then if he is un­ believed when they were elected that the successful he resumes his place in this Par­ Crown was the State of Queensland and not liament. If he is successful-- the Commonwealth. Had we believed it applied to the Commonwealth we would Dr. Scott-Young: He receives no pay in the probably not have been able to write national meantime? health prescriptions, see pensioners whose accounts were submitted to and paid by the Mr. HOUSTON: Of course he doesn't. Department of Social Security, treat soldiers, Dr. Scott-Young: You're getting better; sailors, or airmen or been able to perform you're talking good sense. any services for the departments controlling quarantine and immigration. I think all Mr. HOUSTON: I will have to look at doctors in this Assembly have been aware of my argument. The honourable member is this, and when they have performed services making me worry. I thought my argument for the Government, it has been the Com­ was pretty sound until honourable members monwealth Government. The Commonwealth opposite supported it. If a member is elected does not offer State Parliaments any office or to the Federal House, we can still have a any profit. provision whereby he cannot hold two posi­ I resigned as Government Medical Officer tions. That is only a matter of words. Once the poll is declared, if the member is suc­ in Toowoomba before the eleotion, and since cessful his seat in the State Parliament is election I have had no need or desire to declared vacant and he carries on as the again seek that appointment. Federal representative. That wouid encourage The rights of medical practitioners seeing members of this Parliament to enter Federal patients who are insured with or entitled to Parliament. I believe that a Jack of under­ some remuneration from ,the State Govern­ standing of our problems by Federal parlia­ ment Insurance Office need rto be set out mentarians is what causes our downfall. clearly. After all, these patients are ordinary Most of the remarks made in an earlier people, and when they first get in touch debate today-and perhaps my thoughts were with a doctor he may be completely unaware the same--were to the effect that members of that they intend to insure with the S.G.I.O. the Federal Parliament do not understand or All services that are performed are performed appreciate anything about the operations and for the patient, and no office with the responsibilities of State Governments. S.G.I.O. is intended or implied if a patient Mr. Wright: There is a paraHel with local is seen who has some other dealings with the authorities and the State Government. S.G.I.O. In that regard, the S.G.I.O. is no different from any other trading insurance Mr. HOUSTON: Many members have house. Similarly, I do not think that solic­ come up through the ranks of local govern­ itors should be in any way prevented from ment, and I think this is a great advantage acting for clients who are having any legal when we are discussing local government mat­ problems with the S.G.I.O. sorted out. ters. I know that the Bill is now before the Assembly, but I suggest that if the Premier In practice, I think that most people see adopted my suggestion it would not in any the point at which an office of profit needs way interfere with the principle he is trying to be determined as being the eve of the to lay down and I believe it would help election, and a resignation written out on Queenslanders and Queensland parliamen­ that date can be forwarded and not acted tarians. upon, depending upon the result of the elec­ tion. That seems to have been perfectly Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) acceptable to the people of Queensland in (1 0.49 p.m.): I rise to address myself briefly the past. to this Bill. I think the time is long overdue for this Parliament to have the meaning of Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (10.52 the phrase "office of profit" and the position p.m.): I rise to address ,the Committee on of offioials in Parliament clearly spelt out the proposal by the Premier to introduce a because I think every member of this Bill which concerns the freedom and integrity Assembly is aware that there is an absolute of this Assembly and ,the high duty placed dearth of leading case law on the subject. on each honourable member to be a true We have referred to cases lOO years old representative of his or her electorate and, in which refer to pound-keepers and rabbit so doing, preserve the role of Parliament as board members who have been elected to one of the main bulwarks of democracy. Parliament, although not in this State, and borough councillors who have been elected A matter came to my attention last session to the English Parliament. The new legisla­ that so disturbed me that I was duty bound tion must clearly set out what has in fact to reveal it to honourable members. This 2920 Constitution Act and Another [5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill

related to the acceptance of patronage by one Mr. Campbell: 'Where were you when you of our members. The serious nature of the went to the union meeting? matter warranted the careful deliberation of this Legislature without commitment to party Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I was not at a loyalties as to what the issue was. union meeting; 1 was in this Chamber. How­ ever, I don't remember seeing the Minister The issue was the standing and the reputa­ here on that day. He is rather a nice fellow tion of this Assembly in the eyes of those and I like him, so I would suggest to him who sent us here-and I think the Premier that he sit back in his seat and not make would agree with this-the people of this inane interjections. State. The member to whom I am going As I say-the member I was referring to to refer was elected as a member of this was to be found elsewhere as a prosecutor Parliament at the general election of 7 Dec­ for the Crown presenting the indictment in ember 1974. By law, he was then deemed to have vacated his office of profit. The the matter of The Queen v. Dean before commission to prosecute without which he Judge Broad in the District Court at Bris­ could not present indictments or profit from bane. I am told that his fee from the Crown the prosecution of criminal cases was term­ purse for this work was $266 or thereabouts. inated by section 5 (2) of the Officials in This patronage, I might add, was dispensed Parliament Act. However this member by the honourable member for Nundah, one declined to recognise this termination of his of the Queen's Ministers in this Parliament office. and then Minister for Justice and Attorney­ General. The result was that, while drawing Mr. GREENWOOD: I rise to a point of on his parliamentary salary of $18,900 a order. I find the imputation that I pos­ year for that day, 17 March, this member sessed an office of profit as a result of being also received from the Crown the sum of a Crown prosecutor offensive, and I ask that approximately $266. This member drew two the honourable member withdraw it. It has salaries for the one day, both from the already been pointed out to him on numerous Crown, which, as we all know, is reimbursed occasions by, amongst others, the Attorney­ by the taxpayer. I see the Minister for Abo­ General, that this was not an office of profit. riginal and Islanders Advancement and Fisheries is nodding his head in agreement. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The He knows that what I am saying is true. honourable member will withdraw it. This member took the handsome sum of $266 to be outside this Chamber while at Mr. K. J. HOOPER: With respect, Mr. the same time he took a lesser sum to be Gunn, I have not mentioned the Minister for here. He left the people of his electorate Survey and Valuation by name. Let me say unrepresented while he served his commit­ that if the cap fits, he can wear it. Let ment to his patron. The balance of profit­ us be realistic, Mr. Gunn. If you tell me to ability swayed this member from his obliga­ withdraw it, I will withdraw, but I have not tions as a member of this Assembly and mentioned ·the Minister's name, nor have I inclined him to seek greater merit in being cast any imputation upon him. Apparently where there was greater money. the Minister is over-sensitive. I will be guided by you, Mr. Gunn; I do not want to Mr. GREENWOOD: I rise to a point of transgress. order. I find that remark offensive and I ask that it be withdrawn. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: I think we understand whom you mean. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the honourable member to withdraw it. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: Rather than embar­ rass you in the chair-- Mr. K. J. HOOPER: There again, Mr. Gunn, I did not mention the Minister's name. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: I will ask He is certainly over-sensitive. As I said you to withdraw it. before, if the cap fits, he should wear it. It must be pinching his ears. Mr. K. 1. HOOPER: I will, Mr. Gunn. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: I ask the I certainly did not mention the Minister for honourable member to withdraw the remark. Survey and Valuation by name. However, it now appears that when it was Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I withdraw it. profitable for a member of this Assembly In allowing himself to be bought off, this to do so, he would prefer to vacate temporar­ member put a price on service and in doing ily the representing of his electorate for so dishonoured every member of this personal gain. The record of Votes and Assembly. Proceedings shows that the member was present in this Chamber on 16 March and Mr. GREENWOOD: I rise to a point of 18 March 1976. However, his name does order. I also find that offensive. In fact, not appear as being one of the members Mr. Gunn, I find these remarks both in­ present on 17 March, St. Patrick's Day. I accurate and offensive. Standing Orders 119 should like to ask where the honourable and 120 are being constantly transgressed member was on that day. by the member opposite. Constitution Act and Another [5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill 2921

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The Hood in which a member of a mere rabbit honourable member can proceed. board, who was entitled to claim only travel­ ling expenses, was removed from office Mr. K. J. HOOPER: Thank you, Mr. Gunn. because he held an office of profit under the Crown. We well remember the legislation As the Minister has raised various rules of that was introduced in great haste during the debate, I should like to quote a rule. Section dying stages of the previous session to amend 5 of the Officials in Parliament Act 1896- the Officials in Parliament Act in order to 1961 states- protect a certain member of Parliament. "Any person holding any office or place of profit under the Crown who is also a Mr. Frawley: How would you get on as member of the Legislative Assembly shall keeper of the rubbish dump? be incapable of being el-ected or of sitting or of voting as a member of the Legislative Mr. K. J. HOOPER: How would the hon­ Assembly, and the election of such person ourable member get on kicking an old lady's to be a member of the Legislative Assem­ dog? bly, shall be null and void and a writ shall The principle behind the law that no mem­ forthwith issue for the election in his ber of this Assembly should hold an office of stead." profit under the Crown is founded on the That is clear enough. I see the Deputy Pre­ need to preserve this Assembly as the people's mier and Treasurer, the former Minister for House from the influence and patronage of Justice, in the Chamber. He would agree the Crown. I know the Premier would agree with me. Whilst I dislike his politics, I with that. When patronage 4s paid, as we have always respected his knowledge of the all know-- law. An Opposition Member interjected. Mr. Knox: Particularly when you're Perry Mal!OO.. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: It is a little over his head but, nevertheless, if he listens to me he Mr. K. J. HOOPER: A very good Perry wiU be enlightened; he will learn something. Mason, too. When patronage is paid, favours are owed lf what I have read were all that section and returned. Anyone in this Parliament provided we would have been well rid of should not owe the Crown a favour let alone that member by now. However, subsection accept an office whkh can be described as (2) of section 5 of that Act provides that he an "office of the Crown". may be elected to and remain a member of this Parliament but upon his election he is It has always been a general principle of required to and is deemed to vacate his our law that a member of Parliament is office of profit under the Crown. This was excluded from holding an office of profit mentioned by my leader in his address under the Crown and that if a member does approximately 20 minutes ago. so his seat shall be declared void and vacant. The principle is still valid today even though There can be no doubt that the holding of the honourable member I am referring to a Queen's commission to prosecute is an pays it very scant respect. office of profit under the Crown. I see the Attorney-General is not disputing this, so what As recently as June 1975, in the matter I am saying must be spot on. It is quite true. of Senator Webster, the Chief Justice of the High Court, in considering a somewhat Mr. GREENWOOD: I rise to a point of similar section of the Australian Constitution, order. This is not true, as has been said to recognised it as being designed to secure the the honourable member on numerous occas­ independence of the Parliament from the ions before. Unfortunately he does not seem Crown and its influence. to be capable of understanding it. I find the whole speech of this honourable member 1'he honourable member was not paid a offensive and tedious in the extreme. regular salary as a Crown Prosecutor but, with­ out his commission, he could not prosecute Mr. K. J. HOOPER: As I was saying, Mr. and therefore he could not be paid. Like the Gunn, the question of what is an office of member of the rabbit board he was paid for profit under the Crown was examined in the services. Without his commission it could Queensland courts before the turn of the cen­ not be called, "an office of the Crown". tury. The Minister for Survey and Valuation is a barrister of some standing in the com­ I do not see the Minister for Survey and munity and he would know that what I am Valuation rising to his feet to deny that. saying is quite correct. To hold an office of profit under the Crown, it is not essential to establish a regular salary I now wish to cite details from a case but merely a right, as my leader said, to be referred to by my leader which I think are paid when work is done. But since section worth repeating. I refer to the mere pound­ 5 (2) of the Officials in Parliament Act says keeper in the Hodel v. Cruckshank case who that on his election the honourable member lost his seat in Parliament because he was is deemed to have vacated his office of profit, held to hold an office of profit. I also cite how does he now claim his fee of $266? as did my leader, the case of Bowman v: Surely the proper thing for this member to do 2922 Constitution Act and Another [5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill now that he has been discovered is to ack­ crossed out and the word "completely" sub­ nowledge his error, apologise to the Commit­ stituted before the word "false". I would say tee and refund his fee. Or, if he has not yet quite categorically that this is a complete been paid his fee, pursue the matter no misleading of :the public. I would like to further. think that this Bill would enforce these There is more to be seen in this relation­ principles. ship that obviously exists between the Minis­ Mr. Ahem: Round off. ter for Justice, who dispenses Crown patron­ age, and the honourable member I am refer­ Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I am going to round ring to. If the honourable member had some off. As a matter of fact, you think about exceptional qualities as a lawyer which are that when your members are on their feet not enjoyed by other barristers who are waffling on. It is all very well for you members of the Liberal Party, one could to talk about "round off". I will use up my understand the motive behind briefs delivered full time. from the Crown Law Office to his chambers. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The The Minister has made much noise about honourable member will address the Chair. amounts of money involved. Let me say this: the Attorney"General and Minister for Jus­ Mr. Ahern: Waffling is a thing you do tice, who is under a duty not to mislead a lot, too. Parliament laid certain papers on the table. The papers showed the following:- Mr. Marginson interjected. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: Yes, he never does Paper Date paper laid Year I Account 1 this to his own members--only to members No. before House 1 ------of the Opposition. The member I am referring to must 358 19 November 1970 69-70 1 $114 ultimately face the judgment of the people, 410 24 November 1971 70-71 11,562.20 Their decision will be paramount. His 496 7 December 1972 71-72 1,245.50 campaign literature is interesting. It says, "This is your voice in Parliament-your 346 17 November 1973 72-73 805 voice in Cabinet." That is what it 434 30 October 1974 73-74 1 1,447. 50 says. I have seen copies of it. It is an 400 11 November 1975 74-75 ! 6,1o9.so amazing statement from a man who absents 1 himself from the Chamber to perform work for the Crown. Well may his electorate The figures are there in black and white. ask, "Where was he on St. Patrick's Day 1976 and where was he when the Electricity Mr. GREENWOOD: I rise to a point of Bill was debated?" Check the "Hansards". order. The honourable member knows very He didn't even vote. This Bill ought to well that the last figure he quoted is wrong. safeguard against that situation, against part­ It has been pointed out to him on a number time representation and against patronage. of occasions. I find the whole thing both offensive and misleading and I ask the hon­ Mr. Gunn, the member I am referring to ourable member to withdraw it. is the honourable member for Ashgrove and Minister for Survey and Valuation, John The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I Ward Greenwood. ask the honourable member to accept the denial. Hon. J. W. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove­ Minister for Survey and Valuation) (11.7 Mr. K. J. HOOPER: With respect, Mr. p.m.): Tonight the law is being clarified. One Gunn, how would the Honourable the Min­ result will be that even the honourable ister, seeing I have not referred to him by member for Archerfield will be able to name, know that the figure is incorrect? understand it. He will no longer, however, be able to launch false and unfounded The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I criticisms against lawyers and doctors and ask the honourable member to accept the other people in the Chamber. We will have denial of the Minister and withdraw the clearly set out-- statement. Mr. K. J. Hooper: It is only against you -only against the shysters. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I withdraw it, in deference to you, Mr. Gunn, but there it is in The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask black and white. the honourable member for Archerfield to He would agree--everyone here would withdraw that remark. It is offensive. agree-that legislation had to be rushed through in the dying stages of the last Mr. K. J. HOOPER: Which remark, Mr. session of this Parliament to protect a cer­ Gunn? tain member. Everybody knows that. It The ACTING CHAIRMAN: The hon­ received wide publicity in the Press. How­ ourable member knows quite well the remark ever, it is interesting to note that, in the I referred to. photostat copies of his speech handed out to the Press, the words "60 per cent" were Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I withdraw it. Constitution Act and Another (5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill 2923

Mr. GREENWOOD: We will have it Mr. GREENWOOD: That just shows how clearly set out what is and what is not correct. much the honourable member knows about it. But may I state here the well-accepted It was a successful outcome for the Health historical position with respect ·to my own Department. profession-the legal profession-prior to this Bill's being produced. It has been clearly Once again I felt that it was an important established for 100 years prior to this Bill case and that I should accept the brief. that it was not-I repeat "not"-an office The third case was a case of alleged fraud of profit under the Crown for a member of where most of the alleged elements of fraud Parliament who is a barrister to accept a were supposed to have taken place in New Crown brief. Since 1907 it has been clear South Wales. It was sought to charge a that solicitors are in the same position. person in Queensland. The facts were extremely complicated and again I felt I Honourable members should know that a should accept the brief. barrister's position is not very different from that of a taxi-driver. It is the duty of Might I say that on one of those three a member of the bar to accept briefs from occasions I was obliged to miss two hours private citizens, whether it is in accord with of sitting time in this Chamber, and that his personal wishes or not. A good example is all. was when R. G. Menzies, Q.C., appeared Might I point out once again that there for the Communist Waterside Workers' Fed­ was nothing in the Officials in Parliament eration. He might not have chosen them as Act which prevented a barrister from accept­ clients if he had any choice in the matter, ing work that the Crown asked him to do but it was his duty as a barrister to act for and that this view has been held for many them when they asked. years. If it is the duty of a barrister to appear Might I say also that, though there is no for a private individual, it is even more doubt whatever in the ordinary case, it is obviously his duty to appear for the Crown only in recent years that members of the if he is asked to do so. private bar have been asked to do a certain special category of Crown work-prosecu­ Mr. Houston: He shouldn't be asked. tions for the Crown in criminal cases. So this aspect of the matter was somewhat novel. Mr. GREENWOOD: I know the member Earlier in the life of this Parliament I sought for Archerfield is a republican, but I know the opinion of the Acting Solicitor-General. what the Crown in our society represents. He assured me that the Act did not apply The Crown in our society represents the to briefs to prosecute for the Crown. Shortly interests of the community. I did, through­ before Christmas, when the honourable mem­ out my own career at the bar, take the view ber for Archerfield raised the matter in this that I would do any work that the Crown Chamber, two further opinions were obtained, asked me to do, if I could possibly fit it one from the Crown Law Office and one into my programme. from the most eminent and distinguished After I came into this Parliament it was Q.C. practising in Queensland at the private extremely difficult for me to fit this work in. bar. In both cases the opinion was that, However, there were three occasions when as the Attorney-General has reported to the l felt I had to do it, even though it was at House on a number of occasions, the Officials some considerable inconvenience. Might I in Parliament Act did not apply. So that say that on those three occasions the Minister any suggestion that there was any impro­ for Justice and Attorney-General had nothing priety in doing what I did is absolutely to do with the decision and wouldn't have without foundation. If the honourable mem­ known that the cases were going on. All ber for Archerfield cares to repeat his state­ of these things are done through professional ments outside Parliament he will have a writ solicitors within the Crown Law Office. for defamation on him quicker than he can wink. He should bear that in mind. The: first occasion was a brief I was asked to prosecute where a V.I.P. from another On 9 March of this year, as the honour­ State had been assaulted while on holidays able member for Archerfield seemed to be at the Gold Coast. Four or five witnesses keen to bring it up on various occasions I said that his version was completely wrong dealt with this matter and established that and his credit was going to be attacked so I was driven to the conclusion that his own it was desirable to have a fairly senior mem­ comments in this Chamber on 8 December ber of the bar to conduct the prosecution. consisted of a number of fabrications. I said at the time that it made it very difficult for The second occasion on which I felt I me to accept any of his remarks as being should do the work that I was asked to do those of a responsible member. Since then was an appeal to the High Court. The I have waited in vain for any explanation of Health Department's interpretation of "can­ the figures he quoted which is consistent with nabis" was being challenged. Quite a number honesty. So far none has been given. I of prosecutions by the Health Department am therefore left with the conclusion still for drug offences depended on the successful undisturbed that what he said on 8 December outcome of this appeal. was a deliberate fabrication and that his actions then, as on this occasion, were com­ Mr. Houston: You lost. pletely irresponsible. 2924 Constitution Act and Another (5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill

Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (11.15 This point was well made by the Premier p.m.): It is not my intention to back in December and it was made by him prosecute a quarrel with the Minister for again tonight. It was also made by the Survey and Valuation but I think the point Deputy Leader of the Opposition. It is needs to be made again and again that, m9st Important that we clearly understand because of some lack of clarity in the pro­ what is an office of profit under the Crown. vision concerning officials of Parliament, the I find myself in some jeopardy and the hon­ Premier brought down legislation on 8 ourable member for Mansfield might be in December. Whether it pertained solely to the same position because we are members the Minister for Survey and Valuation is a of the State council of the National Fitness matter that all members will judge for them­ organisation. selves. I~ I understood the Premier correctly r take him to task, however, on the point tomght, any person who is appointed by the that we ought to maintain the historical Minister, or holds any position by way position that lawyers have some special sig­ of appomtment by the Minister, could now nificance. I think we have for too long have serious problems. I think we need allowed lawyers to live in their ivory towers. clarification of the position. I think the Whil:;t 1 agree with what the Premier is honourable member for Mansfield would cer­ doing here tonight, I do not see that mem­ tainly like to know where he stands. I bers of professions, be they medical or certainly do not want to give up my legal, should have a special status. There position with National Fitness. I believe might be some argument for barristers. I that I have a contribution to make to it shall not go into that at any length but, and I also believe that the honourable mem­ because of their peculiar position, I believe ber for Mansfield has made a contribution in that there could be a need for exemption the time in which he has been associated for barristers. with National Fitness. I believe that this point ought to be cleared up by the Premier. But, if there is to be exemption for doc­ tors, why should there not be exemption The point is not whether a person receives for accountants, teachers and dentists? One any money; it is whether he was appointed could go on and on listing members of by the Minister and is performing services professions. The Deputy Leader of the on behalf of the Government. The hon­ Opposition made the point very well that ourable member for Mansfield and I certainly when a person enters Parliament it is a do this. We consider budgets and deter­ job that he takes on and one that he mine staff. I have been a member of himself chooses. Members of Parliament various committees and we decide should follow the principle of one man, whether or not people should be employed one job. The Minister for Justice and hy the National Fitnes5 organisation. I Attorney-General did not continue in his attend State conferences of National Fitness. profession; he accepted that his job was There is a State conference to be held to be a member of Parliament. The same on either 16/17 or 17 I 18 April of this year could be said of many other professional at Tallebudgera. There we will discuss many people in this Chamber. But for some matters and State zone councillors, of which reason, presumably if a person is a doctor, I am one, will be representing the he is different. There might be some who Government. would agree that doctors and lawyers are different but I cannot see that special exemp­ I notice the honourable member for tion for them is necessary. Landsborough is making the point of cutting the head. Does that mean, therefore, that Mr. Houston: What about qualified teachers the honourable member for Mansfield and I in the Outback? are out? I think this ought to be cleared up. Mr. WRIGHT: Quite so. One member Dr. Scott-Young: You're out. has been teaching at an independent school. Fair enough; he is trying to help out. but is he now going to be in trouble? If he Mr. WRIGHT: Well, perhaps that is just had been teaching at a State school he a political move. But the real issue here, I would have been entitled to receive money, believe, is that of the pecuniary interests of even though he might not have taken any. members of Parliament. It is a matter of This is the point made by the honourable great public interest and concern. The image member for Windsor. If a member is of parliamentarians, be they Federal or State, eligible to receive money, even though he is at a very low ebb. Mr. Chipp made this may not receive any, he will be in trouble. point recently. He spoke mainly of the antics Therefore we should give consideration to that went on in Federal Parliament, but I the exemntions and to not maintaining the think most members would agree that the historical ivory tower position for those in antics that sometimes go in in this Chamber the legal profession. do not do us much good. Perhaps we are developing a generation of people who are I believe the thrust of the legislation is going to continue the idea that Parliament is to overcome the difficulties that have arisen a joke, and I refer to those thousands of because of the lack of clarity in the definition children who watch the 11 o'clock antics of of an office of profit under the Crown. this Parliament when they come as visitors. Constitution Act and Another [5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill 2925

So there is a problem about the image of Mr. WRIGHT: I agree that shire chair­ Parliament in the minds of the public. There men ought to be included. Let us tie in the is this belief about lurks and perks. I local authority people. But there is a cloud have had it put to me so many times, "As over every member of 'Parliament because of members of Parliament you get all sorts of the actions of a few. We can go further and lurks and perks." I have yet to find them. say that members of Parliament ought to disclose the interests they have through I think members of Parliament generally­ statutory authorities. We might even come and I do not want to play politics here­ down to milk quotas, and we can think about work darned hard. I would say we work as a certain Minister at this moment. I believe hard as anyone else in the community. All if we are going to talk about the benefits right, we are well paid and we accept that, and contracts that one has with the Crown but when a member actually gets the money we ought to look at the statutory boards as in his hand I believe he would be better off well. We ought to disclose the information back in some of the professions. I once as to the directorships held, and the only "lorked mine out, and until the increase in way to do this is to set up a type of parlia­ pay in 1974 I was always below the amount mentary record and require every member I could have received as a teacher or as the to submit all this information by way of principal of a school. I think this would be statutory declaration-whether he is in true of many who come from the professions. Cabinet or a back-bencher-and this informa­ There is the ridicule that goes on and I believe tion should be available to the public. I it is totally unfair. But there is also some believe that when private members of Par­ foundation for it because we have not had liament rise to ministerial rank they should the courage, or the guts, if we want to put it go even further; they should sever their more strongly, in this Parliament to do some­ contacts, by directorship or any other way, thing about the pecuniary interests of with various companies. I say to the Premier members. that, unfortunately, one of the greatest I find myself in a difficult position here wrongs he ever committed was when he for I have to agree with the honourable refused to allow Ministers to disclose their member for Merthyr. This is a terrible shareholdings. At that point when the issue position for me to be in, but in 1975 he was really at a peak he ought to have come made what I believe was one of the most out and said, "Yes, they ought to do this." forthright speeches on the question of In this I include the Premier himself. pecuniary interests that has been made in this Chamber for a long time. I give credit where Mr. Marginson: He would not do it credit is due. He made the point-it has himself. been made before but he did at least get up and say it at the time--that we ought to do Mr. WRIGHT: I have recently read a book something about the pecuniary interests of entitled "On Being a Christian", and it is the elected representatives. I want to expand on first insight that I have had into some of the the points made at that time, and also the views held by the Premier. I suggest that points made by the then Leader of the he might read it, too. If he did, he might Opposition, Mr. Houston, because he also become very introspective. raised the point. I believe Pat Hanlon also raised it back in 1970. The same rule should be applied to senior public servants and those board members who Mr. Lane interjected. are involved in giving contracts to various people in the community, particularly to Mr. WRIGHT: If the honourable member companies. It is not good enough to have does not want credit he should not worry only members of Parliament disclosing these about it, but I like to think he sometimes interests; the same rules should apply also makes a contribution, though those contribu­ to top public servants. tions might be few and far between. The point is that elected representatives should be We need to re-establish the integrity of required by law to disclose their pecuniary Parliament and parliamentarians generally. interests. I believe that all elected represen­ We need to upgrade the image of this tatives, whether they be local authority, State Assembly, and the way to start is to con­ or Federal, should disclose their share­ vince the public that we are not pulling holdings. They should be required to name rorts, that we have not got our pockets filled the companies they are linked with and their because of some interest that we have or shareholdings; they should be required to some lurk or perk we are able to get as name those companies that the immediate members of Parliament. That might be so members of their family are linked with and when a member becomes a Minister. He they should be required to list all land hold­ might know of land development that is ings that they have. I believe this is the only taking place. Even though we might play way we are going to change the image of politics on this, I still do not believe that members of Parliament, because there is a very many people would be doing it. We question mark on us; there is a cloud over could have all the Ministers getting up in us. People believe about the lurks and perks. this Chamber and saying, "No, I don't do it."; but the only way to finally convince the Mr. Frawley interjected. public would be for documentation showing 2926 Constitution Act and Another [5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill

that these are their shareholdings, these incapable of substantiation. No proof can are their landholdings, and these are their be found of the claims made by the so-called pecuniary interests. shadow Minister for sewerage. We must begin somewhere. We must Members of the medica:! profession have remove the cloud that is over this Assembly to make a lot of decisions not on the and over the lives of all members of Parlia­ finances of people or their monetary affairs ment. The only way of doing this is by but on their lives. We have to make decisions declaring our pecuniary interests. whether we will allow them to spend their last few days in a happy a:nd contented Dr. SCOIT-YOUNG (fownsville) (11.27 manner, and so on. Every day we have to p.m.): I have listened in this debate to a make more decisions than does the average member whom I would call the shadow person and by so doing we are dragged into Minister for sewerage, because every time he legal opinions a:nd opinions on compensation, rises in this Chamber he attempts to spill and give opinions on length of life. We find something unpleasant, and usually something that quite often we have to give these opinions derogatory, on some member of this in writing. No matter what we might say or Assembly. Often his claims are completely do, we sometimes have to give legal and unsubstantiated, and I think it is about time documentary evidence as to what our something was done about disciplining his opinions are. vocal cords. He is an ogre of the worst type, and I think he should be disciplined. Many members of the medical profession have refrained from entering Parliament. Mr. Lane: He should be referred to the They have been under the fear that "profit Privileges Committee. under the Crown" could be considered as not only a pecuniary profit but also a moral or Dr. SCOIT-YOUNG: Probably that would ethical profit. If we are going to be hide­ be a good idea. bound and narrow in our approach to the It should be remembered, of course, that meaning of the words "profit under the profit under the Crown need not necessarily Crown", Parliament will not obtain the ser­ be monetary gain. It can be a moral or a vices of people such as lawyers, who are social gain. Although honourable members trained to make decisions and to think analy­ are talking about monetary gain, a person tically. Nor will it gain the services of mem­ can gain quite considerably by his position. bers of the medical profession, who are Some people have an ego that needs bolster­ trained to consider people in depth. Further­ ing more than their pocket needs padding, more, it will not get the services of account­ and that is a fact that must be considered ants, who are inclined to understand the by the Premier in introducing this Bill. A mechanism of finance, nor will it get the considerable amount of stress has been placed economists. In fact, it is clos,ing the door to on things that really are of little consequence. the best brains in the community. If Parlia­ ment continues to have this peculiar stunted Doctors and barristers have been men­ outlook on administration, it will create an tioned. I do not know why honourable administration ruled by mediocrity. members pick on these two groups of people, because their work is associated with the We have heard comments such as, "You treatment of individuals. Individual prob­ must have all your assets given over to the lems permeate all groups in society. A public gaze." That is a lot of piffle and it is barrister is faced with not only social prob­ brought out by the socialists. Why should a lems but also pecuniary problems. He has man who has inherited money have to bare to sift various types of evidence, and a his soul to everyone who wants to elect him? good barrister should be a good administrator If a man has enough guts and gumption to because basically his mental training and out­ earn money and to accumulate it honestly look teaches him to sift, assess and give an within the taxation system of this country, unbiased decision on complex problems. why should he have to bare that information to the country and to every member of this In our parliamentary set-up in this country House? That is his affair, his own personal we find a considerable number of lawyers business. He has to account only to the and other people with legal training. The Taxation Commissioner and to God. He has honourable member for Townsville South to account to his own conscience. Why once said that the A.L.P. is the academics' should he have to bare it, for example, to and lawyers' party. Some people may laugh the shadow Minister for sewerage? Fancy at that, but they will find that a considerable my having to bare all my personal effort and number of people in the legal profession work to the shadow M,inister for sewerage so have entered the parliamentary ranks, mainly that he can spread it all over this Chamber. because they are well trained mentally and If he did that I could do nothing; he would do well fitted to sort things out and do a it under the privilege of this Parliament, just reasonable job of administration. as he denigrated a Cabinet Minister tonight. Unfortunately, in the debate tonight I I have listened to the denigration of a Minis­ have heard a considerable amount of abuse ter of the Crown by the so-called shadow directed at one member of this Assembly Minister for sewerage, and the Minister of because he happens to be legally trained. the Crown has no means of redress what­ None of this abuse has been substantiated. ever. All he can do is say that he finds the Nor could any of it be substantiated; it is remarks objectionable. Constitution Act and Another (5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill 2927

This Assembly has really deteriorated. Out­ of Australia. That was a worthwhile sug­ side the Chamber the shadow Minister for gestion. In fact, it was the only reasonable, sewerage would not even be game to say decent suggestion made by Opposition mem­ what he says inside. In here he can get up bers tonight. Apart from that, they engaged and say what he likes. It is about time that in nothing but abuse. I hope that the Prem­ Parliament pulled up its socks and set some ier, when reviewing this Bill, considers that standard of behaviour. proposal, because it could give the nation a Mr. Wright: Are you prepared to say that lead in attracting worthwhile people to the the issue involved-- Legislature. Hon. J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah Dr. SCOIT-YOUNG: The issue involved -Premier) (11.37 p.m.), in reply: This has is an issue of principle and ethics. If the been quite an interesting debate from many honourable member for Rockhampton con­ points of view. However, too much emphasis tinues to behave in the way in which he has has been pleaced on the idea that we must lay behaved, God help this country. Parliament down rules, set patterns, declare this and has become degenerate. I . hope to God I that, don't declare this and that, and thereby can lift it up a bit; but, with people like the get people to have confidence in us. honourable member in it, what hope have I? I heard one Opposition member talk about The Bill is a worthwhile one. It will spell a cloud over members of Parliament. I do out the meaning of the phrase "profit under not know whether there is a cloud over the Crown"' and it will stop for ever this con­ Opposition members, but I am quite sure that stant sniping at members. A member can there is no cloud over any Government mem­ get up under parliamentary pr.ivilege and ber in the Parliament. I am quite sure that denigrate and absolutely ruin another. Mem­ our 'standing is very high. I do, not accept bers of the professions have had enough that members of Parliament have .a cloud sniping at them. It is about time the Opposi­ over .them. That statement is absolute non­ tion got down to doing a bit of administration sense. What we and party organisations have and it's about time the State Government got to do is make sure-as we in Government down to doing a bit of administration instead have done-that people of integrity, people of tearing one another apart as it is doing who can be trusted and people who are recog­ tonight. All members are doing is tearing nised as honest people are elected. That is one another apart and denigrating themselves typical of members on this side of the in front of the electors. Not one Opposition Chamber. member has gained. Opposition speakers have run down the Minister for Survey and Valua­ Mr. Wright: Do you recall making a state­ tion. What did they gain in their electorates? ment that Christians should not get into Not a damn thing! politics, because they will be ruined? An Opposition Member: What will you Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: I will deal with gain in yours? the honourable member in a moment if he likes. I might say that if he does not get a Dr. SCOIT-YOUNG: I do not care what wriggle on quick smart before this Bill comes I gain in mine. A principle is involved in into effect, he will not be in this Assembly, this. The people of my •town know me because he is in a situation he is emphasising but they do not know Opposition members that others should not be in. He will not be until they open their mouths. My people laughing then. know me and how I react. Mr. Wright: Did you say such a thing? I agree with a few words spoken by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. He said Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: I said that if that if we are to get good administrators the honourable member is not careful, after in this country we must give them some this Bill is passed he will not be a member incentive. In this State the incentive comes of this Assembly. If the honourable member through from local authorities to the State does not care to take advice-- Government. If a man is lucky, he may go Mr. Wright: Did you say that before? to the Federal Government; if he is even luckier, he may go to the Senate. And the Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: The honour­ country will be all the better for that because able member is completely incorrect. it will get men of experience and proven integrity. I emphasise that all the rules and regula­ lations in the world will not make people The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said honest. The organisations choose people of that there should be some easing of the so­ integrity, men who can be looked up to, men called rules on profit under the Crown so who have proved themselves as honest men. that a man may be able to enter the Federal There has been a lot of nalk about men who sphere without severing himself completely are dishonest or men who have sought to use from his electorate, in the same way as a man their position of advantage for their own can enter State Parliament without severing personal gain. Where are they to be found? himself completely from local authority Where did all the royal commissions come administration. I agree with that and I hope from? Where have they all been in the past? the Premier considers it seriously. In this I know-we all know-from a study of the legislation Queensland could lead the whole history of this and many other Parliaments 2928 Constitution Act and Another (5 APRIL 1977] Act Amendment Bill

that they come from the party that honour­ Federal sphere. We have provided that, if able members opposite represent. No wonder he is not successful, he may again stand for they are so concerned and unsure of them­ his own seat. I think that is fair and practi­ selves. They want laid down guide-lines on cable and accepted by others. matters in which they are involved. If we go back over the history of the Queensland I think that honourable members generally Parliament, where are those who transgress will agree with the Bill when it is printed, to be found? In the A.L.P. as far as it goes. As to all these other sug­ gestions about the rules and what not that Mr. Marginson: What is all too sort of have been suggested-"You have to say this, rubbish? you have to do that, you have to look this The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! way and you have to look that way and then you become an honest man."-let us Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: Is it a lot of be sensible about it. As the honourable mem­ rubbish? As to laying down guide-lines-we ber for Townsville said, "Honest people are have set out measures in a Bill that the not made by our setting a lot of rules." A honourable member can read. person is either honest or he is not. In the modern age in which we live, people would Mr. Marginson interjected. soon find out if we were not honest. In olden days, when the predecessors of honour­ The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! able members opposite were in office, things Mr. Marginson: He's not coming at that were quieter and news took much longer to get out. There was not the modern means with me. of communication and so on that we have The ACTING CHAffiMAN: Order! The today. It was much easier, of course, and honourable member for Wolston will refrain so many of their colleagues in the past got from interjecting. into trouble. 'But that is not the case on this side of the Chamber. Mr. Wright: Four enabling Bills in five months! I hope that today members of Parliament on both sides are decent and honest. I The ACTING CHAffiMAN: Order! believe this generally. We differ in our views. Some members opposite take certain Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: Earlier tonight liberties in attacking or attempting to attack Opposition members were saying, "If the cap the characters of certain people. I do not fits, wear it." It is obvious that they are think that that sort of thing gets anyone getting very touchy when it is pointed back anywhere. I do not think that is the way at them. any member of Parliament should act-by innuendo and all manner of means. In reply to the Leader of the Opposition's question about public servants who want to This Bill deals not with offices of profit. stand for Parliament, I inform him that they That matter is still regulated by the Officials do not have to resign. However, if they are in Parliament Act. This Bill deals with Crown elected, the office of profit must be vacated patronage by stopping Government appoint­ by virtue of their election. We have not the ments of members to boards, bodies and so problem that he raised, when he suggested on, and by stopping the performance of that we should give some leeway so that they service for the Crown. That is its purpose. can stand before being elected. If they went It is not concerned with the disclosure of back to work in the office of profit in the interest, as some honourable members Public Service after their election, of course seemed to suggest that it should be. It does they would be in trouble. However, it is not not have anything to do with that at all. necessary, as the Leader of the Opposition indicated, that they should be given some I think that we are setting down some leeway. This is taken account of. fairly broad and effective measures that will indicate to all members of all parties in Mr. Burns: I was only taking a point out future what ought to be the position in of a previous judgment. I was not suggesting relation to certain activities in which they it in this case. may be engaged. We are laying that down Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: Fair enough. very clearly. The other interesting matter about which This Bill will not receive royal assent for honourable members made some comment a few days and therefore will not become related to members of this Parliament who law until then and one or two honourable might wish to stand for Federal Parliament. members of Parliament who may be in cer­ The suggestion was that we should do some­ tain positions may have the opportunity to thing more concrete about it. Section 70 of take action if they so desire, perhaps as the Commonwealth Electoral Act sets out honourable members, but that is up to quite clearly that that cannot be done. On them. the other hand, we have gone as far as we Motion (Mr. Bjelke-Petersen) agreed to. can to assist a member of the Queensland Parliament who might wish to stand in the Resolution reported. Parliamentary Committee (5 APRIL 1977] Transitional Bill 2929

FlRST READING has been some lack of clarity of this position for some time and members have been con­ Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. cerned about it. I think the Opposition is Bjelke-Petersen, read a first time. pleased that the Premier has now acted in the matter. However, my information is that PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE further legislation will be required at a later TRANSITIONAL BILL date to make clear exactly where we stand. INITIATION IN COMMITTEE Mr. ARMSTRONG (Mulgrave) (11.52 p.m.): I welcome the introduction of this (Mr. Miller, Ithaca, in the chair) simple Bill, which, as the honourable mem­ Hon. J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah­ ber for Rockhampton said, will enable the Premier) (11.48 p.m.): I move- committee to cont!inue to function efficiently "That a Bill be introduced to provide to "the day before the commencement of the for the continuance of the Committee of session of Parliament next following the third Subordinate Legislation beyond the pro­ session of the Forty-first Parliament of rogation of the Legislative Assembly; to Queensland." preserve the operation of the resolution of It will be recalled that last year-it could 8 September 1976 by which that committee have been early this year-our committee ran was appointed; and to provide for the into difficulties. As the honourable member completion of unfinished business of that for Rockhampton said, it has worked ex­ committee." tremely hard and I should like to express my The primary purpose of this Bill is to enable thanks and appreciation to its original mem­ the Committee of Subordinate Legislation, bers and to those presently working on it. which was appointed by resolution of the They have applied themselves most diligently House on 8 September 1976, to meet and and worked extremely hard. function during the period between the date the current session is terminated by pro­ I should also like to say that we have had rogation and the date of commencement of co-operation from all the Ministers and their the next session. departmental officers. We appreciate that and hope it will continue. It certainly makes The present position is that any committee our job much easier. of the House derives its authority from the House. When Parliament is prorogued the We had become nicely set up and were House no longer is in session and conse­ working very hard drawing to the attention quently, unless provision is made to the con­ of Ministers things that we thought required trary, the act of prorogation terminates any attention when, all of a sudden, Parliament sessional committees which have been was prorogued and we found ourselves like appointed. I think all honourable members a ship without a rudder. We ceased to exist will agree that it is important for the Com­ and the research and other work that we had mittee of Subordinate Legislation to operate done all fell by the wayside. This to some during the period in question. extent disheartens people, particularly when The B1il also preserves the operation of they have applied themselves so diligently the resolution of 8 September 1976 by to their task. which the Committee of Subordinate Legis­ As my colleague the honourable member lation was appointed and, in addition, it for Rockhampton, who has served worthily provides for any unfinished business of the on the committee, said a while ago, we have committee at the time it ceases to exist examined a tremendous number of regula­ to be considered by any subsequent tions, proclamations and the like. I t!Iink the committee. number far exceeds 1,000. During the early I commend the motion to the Committee. stages, before prorogation of Parliament after last session, we had attended to about 223 Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (11.50 articles, which involved a fair amount of p.m.): The Opposition supports the Bill. I work. Then, all of a sudden, we found think all members would agree, from the ourselves left high and dry. reports that have been presented by the I should like to thank the Premier for his honourable member for Mulgrave, that the assistance. There are members who tried for Subordinate Legislation Committee has a number of years to set up parliamentary worked extremely well. It has been extremely committees. It was not until the Premier effective. It has been a non-party-political assumed his office that the promise was made committee and, as the Opposition's represen­ to set up a Committee of Subordinate Legis­ tative on it, I should like to place on record lation in due course. It took a little time to the excellent work that Chairman Roy Arm­ set it up but it -is now functioning efficiently. strong has done. Members, regardless of We say to the Premier, "Thank you very party, have worked together in the interests much." Parliamentary committees of this of the committee and subordinate legislation type are important and I feel that as time by the ream has been handled. goes on, Parliament will be the better for The Bill is enabling legislation which will them. The hour is getting late and I do not allow the committee to continue to work want to dwell on the subject much longer whether Parliament is sitting or not. There because I think my colleague the honourable 2930 Parliamentary Committee [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Transitional Bill

member for Landsborough, who is chairman and that is why we have persisted in asking of the Select Committee of Privileges, would for this legislation, which I think is very like to say a few words. I do thank the reasonable and helpful. I thank the Premier Premier for introducing this measure, and for implementing it. while we realise it is a stopgap measure it will suffice and enable the committee to Mr. McKECHNIE (Carnarvon) (11.59 keep working during the coming recess with­ p.m.): Very briefly, having served on this out running into the difficulties we ran into committee, I would like to pass a few com­ on a previous occasion. I would like to ments. The chairman of the committee, the thank the members of the committee for honourable member for Mulgrave, stated that their loyal service and the great interest they we have looked at over 1,000 regulations in have shown. approximately 12 months. This means that individual Cabinet Ministers have taken that Mr. AHERN (Landsborough) (11.55 p.m.): number of regulations along to the Executive Very briefly, I wish to support the legislation Council for approval, and with the work-load that is currently before the Committee. It of individual Cabinet Ministers I cannot is, as the Premier has said, pro tern legisla­ understand how they can be expected to tion to enable the Subordinate Legislation review those regulations as well as some of Committee to continue to meet until the them would like. This is the reason why it is August session. In that regard it fills a gap necessary to have this subordinate legislation which exists at the present time and which watchdog. Only today I received a letter ought not to if this committee is to work from one of the primary producer organisa­ effectively. I think it is the wish of all tions asking us if we felt that we were able members of the Assembly that this com­ to review these regulations as well as we mittee in particular be able to consider would like. This shows that there is some regulations, and I think it is fair to say concern in the community that there is a that their work so far has been very tem­ need for a committee of this type. perate. They have been very reasonable in One thing I should like to speak about is their approach to this difficult area. The the background to the promotion of the work that they do has been valued by the committee. I am sick and tired of hearing Assembly. members of the Opposition consistently The problem of parliamentary committees branding the Premier as being a one-man meeting during periods of prorogation is a band. The Premier has been the driving force difficult one. As has been said, this legisla­ in allowing us to set up the Committee of tion is pro tern. It is a stopgap and it will Subordinate Legislation. Does that indicate overcome the immediate problem facing us, that he is a one-man band? Does that sound but during the next session we wil! have to like the action of somebody who is a one­ look towards a wider consideration of the man band? He has agreed to set up a general law relating to the privileges of the watchdog committee to check Cabinet deci­ Parliament in respect of these parliamentary sions. It proves to me that, without a committees during a period of prorogation. shadow of doubt, we have in Queensland a Earlier in the year I reported on behalf of Government that is concerned about govern­ the Privileges Committee on the problems ing Queensland properly. How the Opposi­ we faced when looking at the possibility of tion could ever conscientiously believe that a prorogation of the Parliament removing one man makes all the decisions in this State our committee when it might be in the when he has helped distribute power more middle of a serious deliberation. That prob­ widely amongst Government members of this lem is not with us at the moment, but it Assembly, I just cannot understand. could be, and I think that the Parliament I agree with the honourable member for ought to consider the wider problem and Rockhampton that the committee has worked provide for us some long-term legislation on a non-party basis, and it has done a lot that could enable these committees to meet of good work. during a period of prorogation of the Parlia­ ment. I hope that review will take place in August. [Wednesday, 6 April 1977] Too many of us say we were elected to Hon. J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah govern, and that is simply not true. We on -Premier) (12.2 a.m.), in reply: I thank all the Government side are elected to be the honourable members for their contribution to Government in the Parliament of the State, the debate, and I thank particularly the mem­ and there is a vast difference between those bers of the committee for their work. I two philosophies. The latter embodies a know that they have put in an immense recognition of the status of the Parliament, amount of time and carried out their work and an important status it is. It is a very very copscientiously. For my part, on behalf important institution and it is important that of Cabmet, I should like to thank each and each one of us pays it due respect. An every

over the Christmas/New Year period, churches to seek to implement within Queens­ Cabinet meets for a big part of one day each land the union of the churches by 22 June week, making decisions, and so on. The 1977. Committee of Subordinate Legislation then follows through and gives an indication of its I am advised that similar legislation is thoughts in relation to the measures that proceeding in all other Australian States, have been approved by Cabinet. I again the proposal being that union should be thank the members of the committee, and I completed on an Australia-wide basis by 22 know we will go from strength to strength June this year. The necessary legislation in working together for the good of the has already been passed in Western Australia. Government and the good of the State gener­ The Bill is the concern of the three ally. religious denominations, portions of which Motion (Mr. Bjelke-Petersen) agreed to. will join together to form the Uniting Church in Australia later this year. Resolution reported. So far as the Presbyterian Church is con­ cerned, it was necessary for uniform legis­ FIRST READING lation to be passed by each of the States to Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. enable sections of the Presbyterian Church Bjelke..Petersen, read a first time. to enter the proposed union whilst at the same time providing safeguards for the rights of those sections of the Presbyterian Church SECOND READING which did not intend to enter the union. Hon. 1. B.JELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah It may be recalled that in 1971 the Pres­ -Premier), by leave: I move-- byterian Church in Australia Act, which "That the Bill be now read a second implements these measures, was passed by time." this Parliament. The provisions of this Act are uniform throughout the State of Motion agreed to. Australia. The three churches now uniting into the one church have a history in this State COMMITTEE dating back to the days even before Queens­ (Mr. Miller, Ithaca, in the chair) land became a separate colony in 1859. Clauses 1 to 5, both inclusive, as read, The Congregational denomination estab­ agreed toe lished its first church, at Ipswich, as early Bill reported, without amendment. as 1853. From this beginning further churches were established throughout the State and in 1861 the Queensland Congre­ TP!IRD READING gational Union was formed. Letters patent Bill, on motion of Mr. Bjelke-Petersen, by were granted to the church on 25 November Jeave, read a third time. 1862 by the then Governor of Queensland, the honourable Sir George Ferguson Bowen. The Methodist Church was introduced into UNITING CHURCH IN AUSTRALIA Queensland in the early days of settlement. BILL The first Methodist minister appointed to the Moreton Bay area was a William Moore, who INTRODUCTION arrived during 1847. The first services were Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha­ conducted at Zion's Hill at Nundah and at a Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) small hall in Queen Street. The first Metho­ (12.8 a.m.): I move- dist Church in Queensland was erected as the "That a Bill be introduced to make Burnett Lane Chapel on the site now occu­ provision for the inauguration of The pied by the Commonwealth Bank opposite Uniting Church in Australia; to constitute the city square. The Uniting Church in Australia Property The first Presbyte:Dian Church service in Trust (Q.); to provide for the vesting of the Moreton Bay area was conducted in 1845 certain property in the said trust; and for by a Dr. John Dunmore Lang. Some six connected purposes." years later the first Presbyterian Church was During the latter part of last year repre­ built on the present site of the Melbourne sentations were made to me with a view to Street Railway Station. Further congregations the introduction of the necessary legislation were established in the State and in 1863 to provide for the Congregational Church, these united to form the Presbyterian Church the Methodist Church and portions of the of Queensland. Presbyterian Church to unite and form one church to be called the Uniting Church 'I'he history of the movement towards in Australia. union of these three churches dates hack to 1901. In that year there was a union of those These representations were made by the who were known as Wesleyan Methodists solicitors who were appointed on behalf of with ,another group styled the Primitive Meth­ a joint constitution commission of the three odist Connexion. Also in that year the 2932 Uniting Church [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] in Australia Bill

Presbyterian Church issued the initial invita­ The Bill provides for the inauguration of tion to the Methodist and Congregational the church, and for the inaugurating assembly Churches to confer in the formation of a to adopt a constitution for the church con­ United Evangelical Church of Australia. sistent with the provisions of the basis of However progress was slow and no meaning­ union. ful moves towards union resulted. Further provisions will allow the assembly In 1935, informal conferences were held of the church, which is to be established in between the Congregational and Methodist accordance with the basis of union, to deter­ Churches with a view to possible union but mine matters of doctrine, worship, govern­ once again a union did not eventuate. ment and discipline in the church and, at The first significant moves towards union any time, to resolve that the church enter of the three churches commenced in 1957 into union with other branches of the Chris­ when a joint commission on church union was tian church. set up. Following this the churches were The proposals, as contained in the Bill, will active at all levels and a basis of union was provide for the constitution of a trust to be completed by the commission and presented called "The Uniting Church in Australia to the churches for consideration in 1971. Property Trust (Queensland)" to hold prop­ Approval to this basis of union was given erty in trust for the church. The trust will by the Congregational Church in 1973 and be a body corporate with perpetual succession by the Methodist and Presbyterian Churches and a common seal and will be capable in in 1974. This basis now becomes a perman­ law of suing and being sued and acqu[ring ent document to guide the life of the Uniting and dealing with real and personal property. Church. The trust will, of course, be required to It can be seen that these proposals for the hold, manage, and administer the trust pro­ churches to unite have been in progress for perty in accordance with the regulations, a considerable time and it is, perhaps, not directions and resolutions of the assembly of surprising that, during the course of the plan­ the church. ning and pre[}aration, there have been some differences of opinion between the churches Further provisions relate to the member­ and in particular between the representatives ship of the trust, proceedings o.f the trust and of the Presbyterian Church continuing to the execution of documents by the trust. function after union and the representatives Perhaps the most important provisions of of that section of the Presbyterian Church the Bill with respect to the initial establish­ proposing to enter union. ment of the church relate to the acquisition However, at the outset, it was indicated and vesting of trust property. that the churches themselves should resolve ln this regard the Bill contains compre­ their differences before any detailed consid­ hensive provisions dealing with the vesting in eration would be given to the preparation and the Uniting Church in Australia Property introduction of the necessary legislation. Trust (Queensland) of property presently I am now pleased to be in a position to vested in the churches. The provisions of the inform all honourable members that I have Bill adequately protect the interests of con­ received certification from the Methodist tinuing Presbyterians in this respect. Church of Australasia (Queensland Confer­ ence), the Queensland Congregational Union Although the churches will not officially and the Presbyterian Church of Queensland, unite until the enabling legislation as pro­ which is representative of both that section of vided for in this Bill comes into force, a the Presbyterian Church entering union and joint advisory committee has been set up that section continuing to function after for some time now to plan co-ordination and union, to the effect that the draft legislation promote schemes of co-operation between the has been examined and is accepta'ble in its churches in anticipation of the official union entirety to the respective churches. of the churches. In many places throughout the State co-operative parishes have been It is, of course, not unusual for churches developed where the work of the three to have separate Acts of Parliament to pro­ churches ha'> been fulfilled in the one con­ vide legislative authority for their establish­ gregation and upon the one site. ment and workings. Amongst other things it gives the church a corporate state and Throughout the development and progress enables it to own property and deal with it of this State, the work of the churches has in an efficient and safe manner. been well known, particularly in the area of social and community services. Organisations The Bill will provide for the three churches such as Life Line, the Blue Nursing Service to unite in accordance with the basis of union and Meals on Wheels, to name but a few, which takes the form of a schedule to the have had their birth from within the churches. Bill. The basis of union, having received the approval of the requisite proportions of It is indeed true that many valuable ser­ church members and of a sufficient number vices are provided by the churches, and it is of the councils of the churches, was approved hoped that the union that these three well­ by the assemblies and conference of the Con­ known churches are entering into will allow gregational, the Methodist and the Presby­ for their work to continue for the better­ terian Churches. ment of its members and the community. Uniting Church [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] in Australia Bill 2933

I take this opportunity to wish the Uniting the combined church of the present age Chur~h every success upon its inauguration. rather than a conglomeration or jigsaw collection of ideas. I commend the Bill to the House. We see now in 1977 virtually the culmina­ Mr. WRIGHT {Rockbampton) (12.17 tion of a lot of thought and deep considera­ a.m.): A long-held belief of many people­ tion into how various churches of the and, I would hope, of all members of this Protestant view could get together. It was Parliament-is that people should have the agreed, however, according to the history of right to determine bow they are going to this matter, that further consideration was practise religion. There are those of us who needed, so a second major document was believe in the separation of church and State prepared. It was called, "The Church, its -the separation of the spiritual from the Nature and its Functions." Proposals put political. I have always seen the role of the forward accompanied this document. The State as one of facilitating laws that are proposals included all sorts of notions about necessary because of the requirement to allow a bishop who was a pastor and not an people to choose their religious practices. administrator. Also at that time suggestions were put forward of ties with the Church of Until recently, I thought that was the view South India. History tells us that these that was held, too, by most members of this proposals were originally rejected but in Assembly; but I have noticed with some 1971 the basis of union was agreed upon. dismay in recent times that Government That was six years ago, so it has taken some members have attacked the churches. I am time. pleased tonight that the Minister for Justice in carrying out his role is wishing the As the Minister told the Assembly, it is now planned to have the ceremony of unity Uniting Church all the best. between 22 and 24 June this year. So it is Mr. Byrne: What a lot of rubbish ·that is. not far away. Because of this we need uni­ form legislation in every State. That is the Mr. WRIGHT: The honourable member reason why there is some haste tonight and says that it is a lot of rubbish. He should the reason why the Opposition has accepted recall the speech by the Minister for Abo­ the need to go through to the second-reading tiginal and Islanders Advancement, who stage. attacked the Presbyterian Church quite The union of these churches reflects the viciously and violently, making all sorts of spirit of co-operation-the ecumenical spirit accusations and implications that 'the church which is becoming extremely strong in the was not carrying out its responsibilities. I Christian communities of the world. Some­ refer to an attack made by the member for times I do not think it is strong enough and Toowoomba North on members of the sometimes I get put out when I hear one House of Freedom. That was backed up church attacking another one because it does by the Minister for Community and Wel­ not believe in some doctrinal aspect. I have fare Services. I could advert to the antack heard of a church recently attacking the by the member for Everton and also the Good News for Modern Man version of attacks by the honourable member for the Bible because of some aspects of Matthew Toowong on the prayer vigil that was held and Mark that it did not agree with. It in this very city. I could even mention the worries me that some churches are prepared move put forward by this Government in to pinprick. We have here an indication of the Psychologists Bill, when It was mooted three churches that are prepared to place that the Government would start deciding their differences in the background for the on what were acceptable religions. sake of working together. Mr. Byrne: That was associated with Similar moves to unite these three churches individuals, not with churches. have been made in other countries. Moves have taken place in Canada where the United Church of Canada was formed and in India Mr. WRIGHT: That was withdrawn, cer­ where the Church of South India was tainly. However, I was asked to substantiate formed, which also included the Anglicans my statement, and I have cited a number as well. It is significant that we are involved of reasons for my feeling that some mem­ in this Assembly in this very important move. bers of this Government are prepared to attack churches that do not agree with the It is also significant that the churches in political line of the Government parties. Australia chose the word, "Uniting" (a present participle) and not "United" (a past The moves for unity have been well out­ participle). I put this forward because the lined by the Minister for Justice. In recent church believes unity among people is a times there have been moves for the Pres­ continuing process and not something that is byterian and Congregational Churches to past and finished with. unite. This goes back some 27 or 28 years. They made such moves in the 1950s. The Like the Minister, I wish the members of first major document on uniting the churches this church well because I believe there will was called "The Faith of the Church". That be problems. There is the difficulty of was more or less an interim report dealing dividing up $1,000 million worth of property. with the philosophies and the proposals of No doubt the nine-man commission will need 2934 Uniting Church [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] in Australia Bill

the wisdom of Solomon to determine how striving for. When criticism is made of cer­ best this should be done to assure justice is tain ministers, pastors and priests, that achieved for the 917 Presbyterian congrega­ criticism is not of the church bodies them­ tions that are in favour of amalgamation selves and it perturbs me that the honourable and for the 520 congregations that rejected member for Rockhampton, who presents him­ the move. It will be a difficult task in some self as a person who is interested in and ways. I believe that all honourable members very concerned with church bodies, would wish the Uniting Church well. presume to draw a simHarity and say that the ministers are the institution. Indeed, Mr. BYRNE (Belmont) (12.23 a.m.): This ministers are not the institution. Once we is a significant move on the part of the find ourselves falling into the error of saying Presbyterian, Methodist and Congregational that the ministers are the institution of a Churches in an endeavour to form a Uniting church, we are moving away from the very Church-the present participle, as the hon­ essence of the spirituality with which that ourable member for Rockhampton mentioned. church is associated. It is pleasing to see that the Government The movement towards a greater concept is able to play a significant part in this of unity and ecumenism between the ecumenical endeavour by three churches churches is a significant factor in the 20th towards unity. There will be divisions, even Century. It is hopefully a breakdown of those within those same churches, in their moves prejudices and the bigotry that existed in towards unity. Indeed, in the Presbyterian past times. It shows that not only in those Church particularly there appears to be a churches but in Christian churches generally· break between those who des,ire to play some there is a very clear understanding that the part in the Uniting Church and those who goals and the aims of those bodies and the wish to maintain an interest in their own par­ basic beliefs of those churches are indeed ticular religious grouping. That is a most shared by all of those religious institutions. understandable and human circumstance. It It is appreciated that the economic circum­ is, however, desirable that relig,ious groupings stances of those bodies and the legal circum­ with similar doctrinal and dogmatic bases stances need to be tied together and that move towards a similar end. there is a responsibility on the part of the I am pleased therefore to be able to sup­ Government to play some part in seeing that port the concept of the Government's playing this comes about. some part in this move on the administrative, I take umbrage at certain comments made economic and legal sides of helping these by the honourable member for Rockhampton. churches come together. I hope that the They were that there was criticism of indivi­ situation that the churches are able to present dual churches. Indeed, no such criticism was to their flocks will enable in the future a made. The criticism that arose was of cer­ much clearer understanding by individual tain statements and attitudes of some mem­ members of the churches of the ecumenical bers of various churches. There is a clear movement and endeavours to see that doc­ distinction between people who are preachers, trinal and dogmatic differences associated pastors, ministers or priests and church organ­ with the different churches are not causes of isations themselves. division but rather causes of unity. I am very happy to lend my whole­ For thousands of years there have been hearted support to the provisions of the Bill. representatives of various church bodies who have not expressed what were the doctrinal Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (12.29 a.m.): It is or dogmatic views of those churches and wonderful to see a Bill such as this coming they have come in for criticism from their before the House in Easter week. This is a own church leaders and associates and also week that is so very important to all Christian from political and community groups. But churches throughout the world. It is the that does not mean that those church bodies, week in which the Christian churches cele­ political and community groups were criti­ brate the death of Christ on the cross. He cising the churches themselves. Rather were died for all, not just for Presbyterians, they making certain comments and judgments Methodists, Congregationalists, Catholics, on some people who held and proclaimed Anglicans, agnostics or any others in the certain ideas. community. He died for all. I think it is very important that we as parliamentarians In Government or any other body with an realise that this is one of the things behind administrative or institutionalised function this move, which we are validating here one cannot expect, as in the case of the tonight, of these three great Christian Police Force, that there will be 100 per cent churches to unite in dogma, tradition and in perfection. There is certainly not lOO per work. I suppose it is ironical that these cent perfection in pastors and ministers work­ churches cannot unite properly, completely ing in the churches today. and fully until such time as an Act of this Mr. Wright: Do you include priests? Parliament is passed to allow their property to be properly vested in a new trust. Mr. BYRNE: And priests. There are It is so often said in our community people who do not have the greatest under­ that politics and the church do not mix. standing and appreciation of doctrine and Surely this is one of the greatest fallacies dogma in relation to what the churches are ever uttered. Any true politician who enters Uniting Church [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] in Australia Bill 2935 this House with the interests of the people and congregations to assist the poor long at heart must do so with a Christian motive before Governments stepped in and took a and in the Christian way and he must follow hand in this work. his true beliefs in order to help his fellow man. Why else do we in this Parliament I think that the measure before the House commence each day with a prayer? When I is a good one and that we in this State go round the State talking to school-children, Parliament should give legislative backing to I remind them that every morning before the unification of these three churches, and the work of Parliament starts we pray that 1 pray to God that some day, as Christian God will :oak with favour upon the work people, ~Ne may all be one. that we are carrying on in this great place that has such a lasting bearing on so many Mr. HALES (Ipswich West) (12.36 a.m.): in our community. It is tragic that many Because of the lateness of Vhe hour, I shall parliamentarians disregard the fact that in not delay the House for long. I cannot prayer each morning they say they will match the eloquence of the honourable mem­ offer their work to God and then go ahead ber for Mackay, but I endorse all the com­ and do what is perhaps classified as the ments that he made. I support the Bill devil's \1 ork. whole~heartedly, and I believe that every member of the House should support it. The I also think it is important for us to amalgamation of the three churches has been realise that when we look at this unification, going on for some time. But for litigation, although 1 prefer the word "unity", of these amalgamation would have taken place about three great Christian churches, we remem­ this time last year. ber that each of them has important tra­ ditions and different faiths that they will My own involvement is mainly in the carry into the new church. It is well planned, Ipswich area. As mission treasurer of the it will mix and it will strengthen as time Methodist Church there, I am pleased t:hat goes on. we are coming into the Uniting Church. As the honourable member for Mackay said It is rather unfortunate that some elements a few minutes ago, the church has been of within the Presbyterian Church have not been great benefit to mankind throughout the prepared to unite with the other churches, years. Through great Christian innovators httt I believe that they will do so in the such as the Rev. Alan Walker in Sydney, future. l would again remind the House the church has introduced organisations such that this move for unity within our Christian as Life Line and the Blue Nursing Service communities started with the wonderful per­ and provided many other WOI'thwhile services son of Pope John XXIII and his attempt to the community. These have benefited par­ to have all the Christian churches and ticularly the poor, the aged and people who Christian peoples unite. I realise that, whilst do not seem to be able to cope with life. he had no direct influence on the move that Most members of this Assembly have met we are discussing tonight, his efforts certainly people of that type in their work-people helped to clear away the last vestiges of who just do not seem to be able to cope hatred, bigotry and dislike that existed with life. Repeatedly people come into my between the churches. Even m these modern office with major problems that they cannot times we see some strange things that have get on top of. been handeJ down over 600 or 700 years from the time of the so-called Reformation There have also been major innovations (which when we look back now was not so for the benefit of the community in the reformist after all) such as people in ccme­ Ipswich area. Last year the member for tries being separated because of their religious Wolston was involved with me and other beliefs. These barriers are all disappear­ people in Ipswich in a problem relating to ing nnd we are coming back together to the funding of Lauriston Centre for Sick help one another in accordance with God's Aged, and I pay a sincere tribute to the way original commandment to us. in which all political parties worked together to convince the present Federal Government The three churches-the Presbyterian, that its cuts in funding were dreadfully Methodist and Congregational-do wonder­ wrong. Without the help of the people ful work for people throughout the State. involved with the Lauriston Centre for Sick They do God's work amongst the sick, the Aged, we would not have been able to be poor, the young and the old and it is in the forefront of the fight against that cut in funding. very important that this House ensures that their work is protected by the legislative 'In Ipswich alone, the Methodist Church cover of the law that we can give them. has had up to 250 employees a week over In looking at this aspect of their work among recent years. It has an annual budget of the sick, the poor, the old and the young, $1,600,000, and this is of great benefit to we should remember that the Christian the community. We have been able to employ churches in the community have led in this handicapped people and give them an incen­ tive in life. Instead of staying at home and field and Governments have merely followed. receiving a pension, they have been able to It was the truly Christian men and women go out into the community and work and do who made the initial sacrifices to set up something worthwhile with their life. We old people's homes, youth hostels, hospitals have established a laundry in Ipswich in 2936 Uniting Church, &c., Bill [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Legal Practitioners Acts, &c., Bill

which we employ 26 handicapped people and tive churches. I think we should adopt the a sheltered work~hop in which we employ attitude that if it is O.K. by the churches another 20. it should be O.K. by this Assembly. There are two people in Ipswich who ought Motion (Mr. Lickiss) agreed to. to be highly commended not only by me but also by other honourable members. I refer COMMITTEE to Matron McAlister at the Lauriston Nurs­ ing Centre, who was the second Blue Nurse (Mr. Miller, Ithaca, in the chair) in Queensland in 1956 and the longest­ Clauses I to 41, both inclusive, schedule serving Blue Nurse in Queensland at present. and preamble, as read, agreed to. I also refer to the Rev. Eric Moore, who Bill reported, without amendment. is known throughout the nation as one of the greatest Christian innovators of social bene­ fits. I commend the Bill to the House. 1'Hiru> READING Bill, on motion of Mr. Lickiss, by leave, Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha­ read a third time. Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) (12.41 a.m.), in reply: I thank the honour­ able members for Rockhampton, Belmont, LEGAL PRACTITIONERS ACTS Mackay and Ipswich West for their con­ AMENDMENT BILL tributions. It is pleasing to see that the House generally backs the move for the INITIATION Uniting Church in Australia. Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha­ In examining what has been said, I suppose Minister for Justice and Attorney-General), I could say that most honourable members by leave, without notice: I move- made a contribution that indicated their "That the House will, at its present strong feelings towards this move. I think sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of only one member, the member for Rock­ the Whole to consider introducing a Bill hampton, was somewhat critical. He made to amend the Legal Practitioners Acts certain accusations. Amendment Act 1968 in certain par­ Mr. Wright: Not against you. ticulars." Motion agreed to. Mr. LICKISS: Fair enough. But if I might quote in Biblical terms, he that is without INITIATION IN COMMITTEE sin among you, let him cast the first stone. (Mr. Miller, lthaca, in the chair) If the member for Rockhampton takes that honour upon himself, he then has the right Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha­ to cast the first stone. I commend the Bill. Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) Motion (Mr. Lickiss) agreed to. (12.46 a.m.): I move- "That a Bill be introduced to amend the Legal Practitioners Acts Amendment FIRST READING Act 1968 in certain particulars." Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. In recent times the development of educa­ Lickiss, read a first time. tion and training for future members of the legal profession has been given serious consideration in this State by representa­ SECOND READING tives of the Department of Justice, the University of Queensland, the Queensland Hon. W. D. LICKISS ~Mt. Coot-tha­ Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) Institute of Technology and the private legal (12.43 a.m.), by leave: I move- profession. 'That the Bill be now read a second A Legal Studies Advisory Committee time." comprising those representatives produced a report recommending the introduction of I feel sure that the provisions of the Bill a law course at the Queensland Institute of were fully canvassed at the introductory Technology. stage, and I have nothing to add now. Honourable members will be pleased to Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (12.44 a.m.): know that since February this year the In his introductory speech the Minister stated School of Law at the Queensland Institute very clearly that he had received certification of Technology has a four year full-time, from the Methodist Church of Australasia and a six year part-time course of law (Queensland Conference), the Queensland at the professional level. Congregational Union and the Presbyterian In addition representatives of the Depart­ Church of Queensland, which is representa­ ment of Justice, the University of Queens­ tive of both that section of the Presbyterian land, the Queensland Institute of Techno­ Church entering union and that section con­ logy and the private legal profession are tinuing to function after union, to the effect examining the possibility of the introduc­ that the draft legislation had been examined tion at the Queensland Institute of TechJ!O­ and is acceptable in its entirety to the respec- logy next year of a legal practice course. Legal Practitioners Acts [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill 2937

The legal practice course is designed to pro­ Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (12.51 vide systematic in&truction in practical skills a.m.): The Minister has gone to some pains and professional responsibility and it is then to explain the problems that exist under the hoped that the course will produce more Legal Practitioners Act Amendment Act competent practitioners better attuned to 1968-1974, under which a person who public interest and professional responsi­ obtains a degree in law at the university has bility. to do only five years' practice before being admitted to practise as a solicitor of the The main objective of this Bill is to pro­ Supreme Court of Queensland. vide for the recognition to be given to the law course at the Queensland Institute of It might be said that by changing this to a Technology for admission purposes. 10-year period for both the University of Queensland and the Institute of Technology At present section 7 of the Legal Prac­ we are being consistent. When I first knew titioners Acts Amendment Act 1968-1974 that this legislation was coming on, I provides that any person who- thought, "That is fair enough. We need to be consistent." However, having given some (a) is a British subject aged twenty-one more thought to it, I am wondering why we years or more; ought to make it 10 years. If a five-year (b) is of good fame; period was satisfactory before for a univer­ sity degree-even taking into account that (c) is an officer within the meaning of many public servants may not spend a lot The Public Service Acts and has- of time in legal offices-why suddenly the (i) completed the Solicitors' Board 10 years, simply because we now have a examinations and completed a period of B.A. Law course at the Queensland Institute 10 years' service in one or more of the of Technology? offices specified in subsection (2) of the section; or Members will be aware that concern has been expressed for some time by the colleges (ii) obtained at a university a degree of advanced education and the institutes of in law approved by the board and com­ technology that their degree will be con­ pleted a period of five years' service in sidered to be a lesser degree than that of the one or more of the offices specified in universities. I think it needs to be pointed subsection (2) of the section; out very quickly that there is little or no (d) has complied with the machinery difference between the studies carried out at requirements for admission, the Q.I.T. and those at the University of Queensland. shall be entitled to be admitted to practise The only difference really is that at the as a solicitor of the Supreme Court of Queensland. Q.I.T. a student is only required to obtain 20 credit points in the Arts faculty, whereas at The Bill seeks to amend the Act to provide the University of Queensland he must obtain that a public servant may be entitled to be 20 credit points in Arts in the first year and adm!tt.ed to practise as a solicitor upon 20 credit points in the second year. How­ obtammg at the Queensland Institute of ever, the Q.I.T. student still goes on to do his Technology or at a university a degree in introduction to law, contract, torts, criminal law approved by the Solicitors' Board and law, constitutional law, land, commercial and upon completing a period of 10 years' service so on. So the law content is the same. I in. one or more of the offices previously checked this out with lecturers at both insti­ stipulated. However the Bill will provide that tutions, and I have been assured that the a public servant who has already commenced standard of examination in the Jaw subjects at a university to pursue a degree in law will is equal. In fact, I was told that the course be !equired to complete only five years' at the Q.I.T. is based on the 1972 law syl­ servrce as at present. labus used by the University of Queensland. The barristers admission rules and the Maybe members ought to consider this very carefully. I know that we are going to solicitors admission rules have both recently deal with this Bill tonight, as the agreement been amended-firstly, to give recognition to was for it to go through all stages; but the the law degree at ·the Queensland Institute Minister should now explain whether we are of Technology for admission purposes and, making this 10 years because of a feeling secondly, to delete the requirement •that a among some people that the degree obtained person seeking admission is to be aged 21 at the Q.I.T. is not equal to the university years or more. degree and that, therefore, rather than be inconsistent, the five-year period for those As it is unlikely that a person would be who obtain an LL.B ought to be extended to under 21 years of age when the required 10 years. course of study is completed, the Bill will The Minister has made provision for provide that it will no longer be a require­ exemption for those who have already com­ ment for a public servant seeking admission menced their law studies. Also he has made as a solicitor to be aged 21 years or more. a point of no longer requiring the 21-year provision. However, increasing the period I commend the Bill to the Committee. from five years to 10 years is important. No 2938 Legal Practitioners Acts [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill doubt it will affect many public servants. It the needs of the community in its legal is not good enough simply to say that the practitioners. The law has become far too five-year period is no longer sufficient. We complex. Its admin~stration has become more need further explanation. Once this is made streamlined and modernised. Now we need a known to colleges of advanced education, total practitioner in Iaw. We do not need they will think about the reason. In this solicitors to brief barristers who still wear instance, only at the Q.I.T. is the full law capes with pockets in the baok of them for course being studied. At Townsville there is people to drop pouches of gold into. only a first-year law course. It does not have a four-year course or a six-year part-time Mr. Wright: Regardless of what you do, course, as does the Q.I.T. you will still need the specialist, the same as Victoria. It would seem that a question of relativity arises as to whether or not the Q.I.T. course Mr. GYGAR: I agree. We will get the is equal to that at the university. This will specialists but we will have true specialists. no doubt concern the students and the lect­ We will have the mam. in the large }aw firm urers. We do not want the idea that the who can take the complicated law problem colleges of advanced education or the insti­ or the complicated criminal law problem tutes of technology are second rate or second from the person coming in with the brief, class in the degrees that they confer. I accept right through to trial and if necessary to that the Minister is being consistent and that appeal. he has made the required provision for exemptions. But I do believe that an explana­ Also what upsets me at the moment is tion is required as to why the extension is the way that barristers must practise in sole being made from five to 10 years when it practices. I see no real need for this any could have been done just as easily by mak­ more. Solicitors are allowed to form com­ ing the Q.I.T. course five years, the same as panies while barristers are not. The method the university. and legal arrangement of their fees, the way they are briefed and paid am.d the weird Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (12.56 a.m.): As f·abri'cation which is foisted upon us about a member of the Minister's committee, I barristers not being able to sue for their heartily endorse the concept being put for­ fees are crazy. The more level-headed mem­ ward. I will not bother to take up the points bers of the fraternity are prepared to recog­ raised by the honourable member for Rock­ nise this. The time has come for us to so hampton. They have already been considered restructure the system of legal administration in some detail and no doubt the Minister will that it taJkes modern society into account explain them in his reply. and, while respecting the past, does not persist with it beyond its years. The points I should like to raise concern the legal profession in general terms. Basic­ I hope that the Minister will follow on the ally the Bill is a very small pinprick, looking ground already broken by his predecessor, at the readjustment of the training of the who is now Deputy Premier and Treasurer. legal profession in Queensland which has In his time as Minister for Justice and been brought about by the institution of the Attorney-General, we saw a large number of Q.1I.T. course. This must be considered as far-reaching reforms in many aspects of the a very small first step towards some much­ law. To sum them up, they were consumer needed and far-reaching reforms to which I law. The former Minister moved strongly in hope this Government will turn its mind. that field. We saw the introduction of the Small Claims Tribunal ood 1'he Jaw being In short, the whole legal framework in taken out to the people in a series of Queensland needs to be looked at very advertisements. We saw in the community an closely and to be drastically restructured. awakening to what the law should be and The time has come for us to take the bold how it can serve them. These things have move of recognising that the present structure now been done and I think that that phase of barristers and solicitors is an anachronism; has reached its corrclusion. Whilst there one that, at its inception back in the dim might be other areas in which some members mists of time, was very fair and reasonable. feel that things could still be done, I think When one looks at the hiistory of the legal the broad thrust of that type of legislation profession, one can see how this came about, has reached its logical conclusion. how solicitors developed and how barristers developed each in their own separate streams. If we wish to continue the process of legal But the time for that need is past. reform in Queensland and continue to be known as the State in the forefront of legal Whilst I admit to being a conservative in innovation and movement with the times, my political thought and I do not believe in we have to change our direction slightly. I change for the sake of change, I think change suggest that the most likely target for our is necessary. Evolutionary change must come new direction would be the restructuring of and the time for that evolution has now the legal fraternity. I hope the Minister will arrived for the legal profession. Unfor­ grasp this problem with both hands. Unfor­ tunately, the present structuring of our legal tunately, in years past previous Ministers, fraternity in Queensland simply does not not only in this Government but all over suit the needs of 20th Century society and Australia, shied away from the problem. Legal Practitioners Acts [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill 2939

Victoria came partly to grips with it but at the moment there is a strong tendency did not really solve it. It went half way and for judges not to rule against their brother ended up in a nebulous middle ground. judges. I suggest that we should look around and, Appellate work is becoming more and more in particular, that we look to America. In a specialised task, and the people of Queens­ that country there is a system that is more land deserve to have a specialised bench of in keeping with modern times and one that judges turning their full minds to appeals would be more in keeping with the proper, and not to works in original jurisdiction. I smooth administration of justice in Queens­ think the State and the system of justice land. I hope to hear that in the near future would be better served if this new court the Minister will be instituting a broad and could be instituted. Looking at the law list, far-reaching inquiry which could draw from we see how much of the time of the the strength of the legal fraternity, the present Supreme Court is clogged up with judiciary, academics, members of the House appeal work, and it should not be. If we and all other interested parties in seeking a could remove this jurisdiction from the solution to current problems. Supreme Court of Queensland as it is I personally feel that the best solution presently constituted and set up a court of would be a fusion of the professions, with appeal, we would find that our legal system no differentation hetween the advocate in would flow far more smoothly by virtue of court and the adviser in tbe office; where a the removal of stumbling blocks in the person, having been admitted, could practise present law calendar. We would have men in both fields without let or hindrance; where who would be able to specialise in this task there was no problem about corporate and we would have better and faster justice. arrangements that members of the legal I remind the Minister of the old adage that fraternity could enter into. There would then justice delayed is justice denied. be a far better system of justice than we have My third and final point relates to the at present. We would then see a situation entry of persons into the magistracy and such as that now found in many of the larger onto the District Court bench. I think the law firms in America in which there are time has come when we should cast our net specialist advocates, specialists in various a little wider. At .the moment a person must forms of non-court work and people who be a barrister before he can become a District are able to cross the boundaries between the Court judge or a career officer of the Public two. Service before he can become a magistrate. This seemingly stupid division that has I can see no point in this, particularly when been foisted on us by history must go. I there are many eminent solicitors who have think everyone who is tied up with the law the training, .the knowledge and the experi­ recognises that. It is not a matter of "if" it ence to sit on the District Court bench and will happen; it is "when" it will happen. do the job extremely well. Let us continue to be in the front of legal innovation by letting it happen here and Mr. K. J. Hooper: I will say this without now, when it should happen, rather than being facetious. How do you feel about the wait to be dragged in by the coat-tails of honourable member for Brisbane being on half a dozen other States that have got in the bench? He is a solicitor. before us. That is the first point that I should like to make to the Minister. Mr. GYGAR: I will not take up the obviously facetious point the honourable In taking my second point, I should like member for Archerfield makes. I have not to support my colleague the honourable had the necessity to consult the honourable member for Brisbane in his calls for the member for Brisbane in his capacity as a institution of a court of appeal. The present legal practitioner and therefore it would be system simply does not work. It is like presumptuous of me to say one thing or appealing from Caesar to Caesar. When another. However, having watched his per­ judges who sit on appeals are drawn from formance in this Assembly, I have no doubt serving members of the Supreme Court that he is more than competent in his pro­ bench, it is ludicrous to think, no matter fessional field. how well-meaning the iudges are and how strongly they may try to fight their natural Honourable Members: Hear, hear! tendencies, that there will not be some measure of hesitancy in upholding an appeal Mr. GYGAR: I am glad to hear I am against a ruling handed down by a brother supported by honourable members on both judge. sides in that contention. This is one of the strengths of the hierar­ But the point is that because of this chical court system. Where there is a div­ artificial division in the profession we find ision into steps and layers, each layer is that experienced men who are practising as prepared to overrule the one beneath it solicitors cannot be appointed to the District because it sees that that is its job. If those Court bench. I think the State suffers, the in one layer think that an error has been legal system suffers and the quality of our made in fact, law or procedure by one in courts may very well suffer because in the a lower layer, they are prepared to overrule past we have, by some strange convention, him. If we are realistic we must admit that been denied the abilities of these men. One 2940 Legal Practitioners Acts [5 & 6 APRIL 1977} Amendment Bill could go on at great length about the Mr. LICKISS: We will cross that barrier apparent inadequacies in the present system when we come to it. It certainly would not of appointing magistrates. Here again we qualify at the moment. could well draw on the members of the practising profession to obtain fine men­ Secondly, it increases from five years to experienced, practised and able-who would I 0 years the period to be served in one or be more than competent to fulfil these duties more of the stipulated legal offices of the and, I am sure, more than willing. We are Crown by a public servant who obtains a locking out of our legal system this pool of degree in law at a university. Consequently, talent for which I would hope the Minister the period of service by a public servant for would open the gates so that the law, our admission as a solicitor will be uniform what­ courts and all the citizens of Queensland ever examinations are undertaken, except might benefit. I shall be interested in hearing that a public servant who has already com­ the Minister's intentions in this regard. menced at a university to pursue a law degree will be required to complete only five years' Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha­ service as at present. We are not breaking Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) faith with those who have already begun. (1.9 a.m.), in reply: I thank both honourable members for their contributions. Whilst I Thirdly, it will no longer be a requirement was very interested in what my colleague for a public servant seeking admission as a the honourable member for Stafford had lo solicitor to be aged 21 years or more. I say, a lot of what he said was, of course, commend the motion to the Committee. well outside the scope of the Bill before Motion (Mr. Lickiss) agreed to. the Committee. I am sure he would realise that. Nevertheless, what he had to say was Resolution reported. quite interesting. The honourable member for Rockhampton raised the period of 10 years which a public FIRST READING servant desirous of qualifying as a solicitor Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. must serve prior to his admission as a Lickiss, read a first time. solicitor. A public servant who completes the Solicitors' Board examinations has to serve 10 years in the various Crown legal SECOND READING offices, not five years as is the case for articled clerks in private practice. The Hon. W. D. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha­ 10-year requirement will be uniform under Minister for Justice and Attorney-General) these circumstances whether the course of (1.13 a.m.), by leave: I move- Jaw is pursued at the university, the Queens­ "That the Bill be now read a second land Institute of Technology or through the time." Solicitors' Board. I think that is basically the reason why we adopted the figure of In winding up the debate on the motion for 10 years. the introduction of the Bill, I answered the questions that were put to me by both the In answer to some of the matters raised by honourable member for Rockhampton and the honourable member for Stafford, I say the honourable member for Stafford. I now to him that I think he knows I am not averse commend the Bill to the House. to change and that I am open to suggestions in matters that could improve the system that Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (1.14 comes within my ministerial portfolio. I am a.m.): The Bill as presented to honourable willing at all times to hear suggestions and members is exactly as the Minister outlined. to deliberate upon them. I, too, cannot see It is only a short and simple Bill. How­ any reason why a qualified solicitor from ever, I would ask the Minister to give some outside the Public Service could not be thought to the fact that the James Cook appointed as a magistrate. I would have to University does have a Jaw course. Although be convinced that there is something I cannot it is only in the infant stages, it would seem see which would necessitate a person coming to me to have been wise to insert a reference from within the service. to any other institute of learning in Queens­ The Bill is a short and simple measure that land, thereby saving amendment at a later amends the Legal Practitioners Acts Amend­ lime. As the Minister said, no doubt that ment Act 1968-1974 in the three respects that difficulty can be overcome when it arises; but I have mentioned. Firstly, it provides for a we should be looking ahead and trying to public servant to be admitted as a solicitor sa" c the time of this Assembly. upon obtaining a degree in law at the Queensland Institute of Technology and upon I accept the Minister's explanation about serving the normal period of 10 years in one the 10-year requirement. or more of the stipulated legal offices of the As for the points made by the honourable Crown, as I explained earlier. member for Stafford, I was pleased to note Mr. WrigM: Is it also going to involve the that the three major points he made were James Cook University? I am told that the the three important planks in the A.L.P. course there will eventually be extended platform on law reform. I refer specifically from a one-year course to a full law course. to the removal of the duality of the legal House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2941

profession, the establishment of a separate Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (1.19 a.m.): I move and special court of appeal and the appoint­ the following amendment:- ment of a private solicitor as a magistrate. "On page 2, line 37, after the words Now that we have heard the Minister's 'any building work' insert the words­ approval of those points, perhaps we will see some changes in this State. 'within the curtilage of the allotment upon which the dwelling is erected'." Motion (Mr. Lickiss) agreed to. I move this amendment because I believe that a large section of building that is under­ COMMITIEE taken does not come within the meaning of the present definition. I refer particularly to (Mr. Miller, tithaca, in the chair) swimming-pools. I understand that in the Clauses 1 to 3, both inclusive, as read, building industry the construction of swim­ agreed to. ming-pools in the Brisbane city area and in fact throughout the State is causing trouble. Bill reported, without amendment. Whilst it would be possible to include in the definitions the term "swimming-pool", that THIRD READING in itself would be restrictive so I believe that there should be a general meaning to include Bill, on motion of Mr. Lickiss, by leave, works of all kind-the construction of read a third time. swimming-pools, cellars or some building that is not an appurtenance to another building. I believe that amending the section as HOUSE-BUILDERS' REGISTRATION proposed will overcome the present short­ AND HOME-OWNERS' PROTECTION coming in the Bill. I invite the Minister to BILL consider the amendment and accept it. Amendment (Mr. Lowes) negatived. CoMMITIEE

(Mr. Miller, Hhaca, in the chair) Hon. N. E. LEE (Y eronga-Minister for Clause 1-Short title- Works and Housing): I move the following amenclment:- Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga~Minister for Works and Housing): I move the following "On page 2, lines 42, 43 and 44, omit amendment:- the words- "On page 1, line 6, omit the 'the provision of lighting, heating, expression- cooling, ventilation, air-conditioning, '1976' water supply, drainage, sewerage and other appurtenances of a dwelling­ and insert in lieu thereof the expression- house and'." '1977'." Amendment agreed to. Amendment agreed to. Clause 1, as amended, agreed to. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Clauses 2 and 3, as read, agreed to. Works and Housing): I move the following further amendment:- Mr. K. J. Hooper: Clause 4. "On page 2, after line 46, insert the Clause 4-Meaning of terms- words- ' "building work" includes the provi­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. sion of lighting, heating, cooling, Miller): Order! The honourable member for ventilation, air-conditioning, water Brisbane. supply, drainage, sewerage and other appurtenances of a dwelling-house;'." Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I rise to a point of order. I called clause 4 earlier. Amendment agreed to.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Ho:n. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Will the honourable member for Archerfield Works and Housing): I move the following please indicate which line he wishes to further amendment:- amend in clause 4? "On page 3, after line 23, insert the words- Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I wish to speak to the clause. ' "house-builder" means an individual who or a firm or body corporate that is engaged in building construc­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! tion (including the provision of labour The honourable member can speak later on only) for a fixed sum, percentage, to the clause. The first amendment I have valuable consideration or reward other to this clause is one to be moved by the than wages;'." honourable member for Brisbane. I now call him. Amendment agreed to. 2942 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] [and Home-owners', &c., Bill

The TEl\-IPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. conveyance of a property with a home build­ Miller): I draw attention to the fact that ing on it, that a notice of change of owner­ the second part of the next proposed amend­ ship is to be given by the vendor and the ment circulated will have to be taken after purchaser to the department-to the board­ the succeeding amendment. and whether that notice of change of owner­ ship is required to set out not only the date Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for of the sale and the description of the pro­ Works and Housing): I move the following perty but also the apportionment of the con­ further amendment:- sideration between the land tax and the im­ "On page 3 omit all words comprising provements on the land, as well as any lines 37 and 38." chattels that may pass with the sale. If it is not intended that notice of change of owner­ Amendment agreed to. ship should be given, then with this informa­ tion I can see that the board will have a Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for constant job that I imagine will be beyond Works and Housing): I move the following its capacity. The board the Minister has in further amendment:- mind setting up is not intended to be large. "On page 4, line 3, insert after the The board will have a constant job assessing expression 'section 58 (1)' the words- the value of improvements. Otherwise, in many cases notices of change of ownership 'performed by a registered house­ will be lodged and will not show the appor­ builder'." tionment. It will not show the value of Amendment agreed to. improvements erected on the land. As I see it, that is going to make the whole of the Bill Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for of no effect whatsoever. I ask the Minister Works and Housing): I move the following to give consideration to redrafting that clause further amendment:- so as to make it clear, and also to give some consideration to what the requirements are "On page 4, after line 6, insert the on the vendors and the purchasers. On a words- change of ownership, what notice are they ' "Register" means the Register of required to give and what apportionment to House-builders kept pursuant to the consideration are they required to make? section 32;'." Amendment agreed to. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing) (1.28 a.m.): Unfortu­ Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (1.24 a.m.): Clause nately, I do not have an amendment to cover 4 (2) has a mixture of terms which, I the matters raised by the honourable mem­ believe, make that subsection quite unintel­ ber on clause 4. We do not see any problems. ligible. The subclause reads:- However, if any do arise, they will be cured "Where the maximum quantum of insur­ by a later amendment. ance cover provided by a house-purchaser's I move the following further amendment:­ agreement under this Act is expressed by "On page 4, omit all words comprising reference to a value of building construc­ lines 25 to 28, both inclusive, and insert in tion such value- lieu thereof the following words:- (a) in the case of a house-purchaser's '(ii) if such an amount is not so speci­ agreement that is concerned with a fied, the amount that is determined contract to perform building con­ by the Board or by a person struction ..." appointed or approved by the Board Here we have "a house-purchaser's agree­ to be the value of the land to which ment" mentioned in the first instance. Then the contract relates as at the date we come to "a contract to perform building". of the contract;'." Paragraph (a) again refers to moneys "pay­ able under the contract". In (b) there is a This provides for a proper valuation on the reference to "a contract for the sale of land". land instead of taking a valuation made All in all, the mixture of terms makes that previously under the Valuation Act. There­ subclause quite unintelligible and the purport fore a more realistic valuation can be of the Bill is not clear. I would suggest to obtained. I consider that it is a very good the Minister that the clause be amended and amendment. reframed so as to make the intention of the Bill quite clear. Amendment (Mr. Lee) agreed to.

Mr. Houston: Do you think a barrister Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (1.30 would understand it better? a.m.): The Opposition considers that an addi­ tional subclause should be inserted in the Mr. LOWES: I do not think anybody could clause to read as follows:- understand it in its present form. It is quite unintelligible, and certainly confusing. "Proceed with any building construction of any dwelling-house when instructed by The clause goes on to talk about the value order of the Board or authorised officers of improvements. I might ask the Minister of the Board to cease building operations whether it is intended, whenever there is the and engage a registered house builder." House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2943

I think the Minister would agree that that little Government initiative. The State Gov­ is one of the problems we have had in the ernment should operate a pre-purchase home past. Many builders have not been registered inspection somewhat similar to the R.A.C.Q. and some have been fly-by-night jerry-build­ check on motor vehicles for a nominal fee, ers. They have caused a lot of trouble in and the buyer should be able to obtain a the industry and even the Builders' Regis­ comprehensive report on the condition of tration Board has complained about them. the house somewhat along the lines of the My suggested amendment continues- scheme introduced in New South Wales. The legislation introduced there is far more "The order shall state that a daily pen­ alty of $250 shall apply for each day the progressive than could be introduced by this order is not obeyed. This penalty would reactionary National-Liberal coalition Gov­ apply in addition to the penalty of $1,000." ernment in Queensland. Whilst most people have a car checked for mechanical defects I emphasise that this subclause is very neces­ before buying it, they do not bother to have sary. People will proceed as $1,000 can easily a house, which in most cases would cost be added to the sale price. As a matter of about 10 times as much as a car, checked for fact this clause should also have been in the structural or other defects. I ask the Minister previous legislation providing for the registra­ to give consideration to that point. tion of builders. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing) (1.31 a.m.): I have Works and Housing) (1.35 a.m.): I believe discussed this. It has been discussed in the the clause is quite broad enough to cover party room. We certainly do not believe that most of the matters raised. I do not think at this stage we should be as definite as the we should have teams of inspectors running honourable member for Archerfield suggests, around, as New South Wales does. There particularly in relation to penalties. That is are literally hundreds of inspectors in that why I am not prepared to accept the amend­ State. We certainly do not want that here. ment. Mr. K. J. Hooper: Why not? Mr. Houston: You are not in a co-oper­ ative mood. Mr. LEE: For the simple reason that we Mr. LEE: I am always in a co-operative want to let builders get on with the job. If mood. a complaint is made to the board, the work will be inspected. We are not going to have Clause 4, as amended, agreed to. a team of inspectors running around wi!ly­ Clause 5, as read, agreed to. nilly looking into everything. Clause 6-Functions of Board- Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (1.36 Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (1.32 a.m.): That is not quite correct. I think the a.m.): This clause should be strengthened. Minister was talking from the top of his hat There is a definite need for the insurance when he said that there would be an army of scheme to be covered by this clause. This building inspectors running around. Does he could be lessened if more was done to check not think that that would be desirable if workmanship before purchase. At the intro­ they were protecting people from being ductory and second-reading stages, members caught and touched by unscrupulous build­ on both sides of the Chamber mentioned ers? Take, for example, an average member shoddy workmanship and the need for an of this Committee, particularly one of the adequate insurance scheme to be included mental calibre of the honourable member for in the Bill. At the moment people pay up to Murrumba. If he inspected a house, how $500 to check the title to their property. would he know if it was structurally sound? Some people pay about $50 for a land Certainly he would not, and the honourable survey to make certain that what they bought member for Maryborough would not have a was what they got. clue, either. As for the honourable member for Landsborough, all he knows about is Through you, Mr. Miller, I ask the Min­ termites. This is all quite over his head. ister to listen to me and not talk to the I know there is not much between the Min­ Minister for Primary Industries. I should like ister's ears, but I think he should afford me to point out that the New South Wales Gov­ the courtesy of listening when I am on my ernment introduced a Bill to provide that feet. for a fee of $50 the purchaser of a new home could have a building inspector check Mr. TOMKINS: I rise to a point of order. that home thoroughly before purchase. That I take exception to that remark. is commendable legislation that the Minister could very well emulate and introduce in The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. this State. Miller): Order! Is the Minister taking a In relation to the insurance scheme-as point of order? the Minister knows, very few people would Mr. TOMKINS: Yes. I take exception to be willing to pay an additional $50 for a that remark and ask the honourable member structural check to ensure that the place to withdraw it. He referred to me in very would not fall down around them. Part of disparaging terms. the reason is that people are not aware that such a service is available, and there is very Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I did not. 2944 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

The TEl'dPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! interest in the building industry. I think they I ask the Committee to come to order. Again would perform this task admirably and I ask I ask the Minister if he is taking a point of the Minister to consider my suggestion. order. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Mr. T0:\1KINS: Yes. The honourable Works and Housing) (1.40 a.m.): I shall give member referred to me in very disparaging it some consideration. terms. Clause 8, as amended, agreed to. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: What did I say? Clause 9-Qualification of Housing Indus­ try nominees- The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! I do not believe that the honourable member Hon. N. E. LEE (Y eronga-Minister for for Archerfield referred to the Minister for Works and Housing): I move the following Lands in disparaging terms. amendment:- "On page 6, omit all words comprising Mr. K. J. HOOPER: Thank you, Mr. lines 1 to 3, both inclusive, and insert in Miller. In conclusion-! feel that these in­ lieu thereof the following words:- spectors would certainly afford young home owners a lot of protection that they do not '9. Qualification of building industry get now under the Act. I ask the Minister to representatives. Of the persons referred give some consideration to this point. to in provision (b) of section 8 (1)-'." Amendment agreed to. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing) (1.37 a.m.): They have Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (1.42 ample protection under the Bill. a.m.): There are about 11,000 registered Clause 6, as read, agreed to. builders in Queensland-- Clause 7, as read, agreed to. Mr. Frawley: Get off your perch, will you. Clause 8-Membership of Board- Mr. K. J. HOOPER: Look at the perch Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for the honourable member is going to sleep on. Works and Housing): I move the following As I was saying, there are about 11,000 amendrnent:- registered builders in Queensland, and of "On page 5, omit all words comprising these only a small percentage belong to the lines 32 to 42, both inclusive, and insert in Australian Institute of Building (Queensland lieu thereof the following words- Branch). The same thing can also be said of the Queensland Master Builders' Associa­ '8. Membership of Board. (1) The tion, which appears to have had great Board shall consist of five members, influence on Government members and the nominated by the Minister, of whom­ Minister in delaying the passage of this Bill (a) one shall be the representative of through the Parliament. the Government of Queensland; Mr. Lee: That's untrue, of course, and you (b) two, being qualified as prescribed know it. by section 9, shall be the repre­ sentatives of the building industry in Queensland; Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I do not think it is. I stand by what I have said; I do think they (c) one shall be the representative of have an undue influence. purchasers; (d) one shall be the representative of Mr. Lee: That is untrue. the insurance industry in Queens­ land.'" Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I am not going to call the Minister a liar, but if he wants me Amendment agreed to. to put it quite bluntly, I say it is true. Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (1.39 Mr. Frawley: Would you say that of a.m.): I refer to clause 8 (1) (c). I feel that Government members? this should be amended to provide that the purchasers' representative shall be elected Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I would say that, from the ranks of building surveyors and and I said it during the debate on the nominated by their association. second reading. Mr. Lee interjected. Mr. FRAWLEY: I rise to a point of order. I take exception to the remark that Govern­ Mr. K. J. HOOPER: It would be a very ment members delayed this Bill. I find the desirable innovation. Three names shall be remark offensive and I would like it submitted for the Minister's consideration. withdrawn. I would point out to the Minister, if he is listening, that these people are skilled local The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. government officers and have no pecuniary Miller): Order! There is no point of order. House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2945

Mr. K. J. HOOPER: As I was saying, Insertion of new clause- the Queensland Master Builders' Association represents only a very small percentage of Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for builders and there seems to have been a Works and Housing): I move the following wrong impression created that it represents amendment:- a cross-section of the building industry. I "On page 10, insert as clause 26 the do not think it does. I say it is reasonable following clause:- that builders who are not members of the '26. Audit and financial statement. (1) Housing Industry Association of Australia The accounts of the Board shall be (Queensland Branch) should be able to audited at least once in each year by nominate for membership of the board as the person or persons appointed pursuant set out in sections 9 (a) and 9 (b). What to this section. does the Minister say to that? (2) The Auditor-General may appoint Mr. Hales: Do you want Hughie Hamilton a person who holds or persons ea<::h on the board? of whom holds a certificate of regic­ tration as a pub1ic accountant under Mr. K. J. HOOPER: Why not? the Public Accountants Registration Act 1946-1975 or an officer or officers of Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for the Department of the Auditor-General Works and Housing) (1.43 a.m.): I think we to be the auditor or auditors for the have given due consideration to the member­ Board. ship of the board. We have not tied it particularly to any one industry. I think its Remuneration payable by the Board members will represent a pretty good cross­ in respect of each audit shall be as fixed section of the industry, including the Master by the Auditor-General. Builders' Association, which the honourable (3) An auditor appointed under this member said delayed the Bill. If the honour­ section- able member noticed, one of the amendments ( a) shall examine the books and referred to master builders. If they had accounts of the Board and forth­ caused so much delay, why would I now with upon completion of the be deleting the expression from the Bill? audit shall report to the Auditor­ What the honourable member has been General the result thereof; saying is incorrect. (b) may require the Board and any Clause 9, as amended, agreed to. person employed by the Board to produce to him for his exam­ Clause 10-0hairman of Board- ination such books, papers, writ­ ings, vouchers and records of Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (1.44 the Board as in the auditor's a.m.): Very briefly, would the Minister give opinion are relevant to the audit consideration to having a qualified solicitor of the Board's accounts. or barrister appointed as chairman of the board? I am serious when I say this because The Auditor-General shall in respect I think it would be an ideal appointment. At of an audit of the Board's accountg least such a person would have a knowledge have the powers conferred on him by of the law and would make an admirable the Audit Act 1874-1968 or any Act chairman of the board. passed in substitution therefor. Mr. Frawley: The honourable member for ( 4) The Board and any other person Brisbane. to whom a requisition is directed pur­ suant to subsection (3) shall forthwith Mr. K. J. HOOPER: Well, he is being comply with the requisition so directed appointed to the District Court bench, so to it or him. why not? (5) The Board shall, as soon as prac­ ticable after 30 June in each year, pub­ Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for lish in the Gazette a statement made Works and Housing) (1.45 a.m.): I prefer it up to that date showing the receipts the way it is, with a qualified builder being and disbursements of the Board during appointed by the Government. He would be the preceding 12 months certified- a far better appointment than a solicitor, (a) in the case where the Board's because it is the building industry that we accounts are audited in relation have to worry about, not a legal matter. to that 12 months by an officer Clause 10, as read, agreed to. or officers of the Department of the Auditor-General, by the Clauses 11 to 25, both inclusive, as read, Auditor-General; agreed to. (b) in any other case, by the person Clause 26-Financial statement- or persons, as the case may be, appointed pursuant to subsection Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for (2) who performed the audit, Works and Housing): I oppose the clause. as exhibiting in the opinion of the per­ Clause 26, ns read, negatived. son or persons so certifying a true and 95 2946 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

fair view of the financial transactions of I seriously believe •that it is not reasonable the Board for the period to which to give to the board the power to impose the statement relates.'." conditions and restrictions \Without having Amendment agreed to. guide-lines laid down in the Bill. We should not be asked to pass such a provision. I ask New clause 26, as read, agreed to. the Minister to give consideration to the dele­ Clause 27-Persons who may be regis­ tion of the words that I have referred to. tered- Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (1.51 Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (1.48 a.m.): a.m.): I disagree with the honourable mem­ believe that clause 27 is repugnant to most ber for Brisbane. I regard subclause (1) (c) people and, I should hope, to most honour­ as a very necessary one. The honourable able members. It is giving to the board a member for Brisbane takes umbrage at the power that I believe is excessive. It is fact that the board will require that the creating a variety of types of builders, in builder erecting the home has sufficient that the board is given power to impose financial resources. Such a requirement is conditions and restrictions, and throughout long overdue. With your knowledge of the the Bill we find frequent references to the building industry, Mr. Miller, you would conditions and restrictions that the board probably agree ·that some builders have con­ may place upon builders. If builders are tracted to build homes, have gone broke to be registered, then they should be regis­ half way through as the result of lack of tered. Although there is provision in the finance and have left the poor old home Bill for appeal, I believe that it is not owner lamenting. As I say, I disagree with proper that such power should be given the member for Brisbane. to the board. I seriously ask the Minister to consider the removal of all reference to Mr. Jones: Do you agree with the this power throughout the Bill-that is, the Minister? removal of the words "such conditions and restrictions relating to the carrying on of Mr. K. J. HOOPER: It's not too often that business (housebuilding) as the board that I agree with him, but I do on this may impose on his registration" wherever occasion. they appear. In clause 27 (1) (c) there is reference Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) to the board being satisfied that the applicant (1.52 a.m.): I seek clarification of clause 27 builder has sufficient financial resources. (1) (c). Does this mean that a builder could Again, I believe that gives too much power be required to lodge something like a statu­ and it is insufficiently spelt out in the tory reserve deposit, as is required elsewhere Bill for the guidance of the members of in the building industry, before he can the board. If the board is to have these commence the construction of homes? powers, I believe that both the powers and the guide-lines for these powers should be Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for set out in the Bill. It is not good enough for Works and Housing) (1.53 a.m.): Certainly the board to take unto itself these powers not. We are not asking him to put in a and impose conditions and restrictions and statutory sum of money or anything like seek information about the financial resources that. This is a considerable relaxation of the of a builder and satisfy itself on a day-to-day provisions that were applied under the old basis as to the sufficiency of such financial Builders' Registration Board. It is done resomces. What may be sufficient in the specifically because I believe every person minds of members of the board on one day has the right to start, no matter how small may well not be sufficient the next day. he may be and no matter whether he has There is nothing laid down in the Bill. If served an apprenticeship. Quite often people the board is to have this power-and I do can have what I would term a D.P.E.-a not think it should have it-to decide what Diploma of Practical Experience-which is are sufflcient financial resources, then the as good as, if not better than, an apprentice­ necessary guide-lines should be included in ship if the holder has had a long career in the Bill. the buildng trade. A person who is in the building trade for many years can become That part is bad enough, but I believe quite competent as a builder. That is one that the power of the board to impose these thing. conditions and restrictions is excessive and should not be included. I would ask the The other thing is that it is not much use Minister whether he would be prepared to his claiming to be competent as a builder amend this clause by deleting from subclause if he has not got any money at all. After all, (1) (c) all the words after "house-builder" he is being insured against default or going where it appears in the second line of that broke. Something must be known about him. paragraph down to "registration". That would Certainly we are not going to ask him to do away entirely with the conditions and lay out great balance sheets everywhere. All restrictions. The other clauses that refer to the board would be looking for is sufficient conditions and restrictions that may be money to finance his creditors, which is a imposed could be deleted as we come to reasonable thing, and to finish the job. It is them. a relaxation of the old provisions. House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2947

Mr. LINDSAY (Everton) (1.54 a.m.): In Mr. Houston: Yes, that is so; but why use relation to the persons who may be registered, those words? I accept those set out in paragraphs (a) to (d)-that is, a person of good fame and Mr. LEE: It certainly would not be much character, a person who is sufficiently com­ of a recommendation if the honourable mem­ petent, a person who has sufficient financial ber were a Minister. That is one part that resources and a person who is not disqualified. worries me. I fail to see, however, why paragraph (e) is Mr. Lane: It covers different classes of included to provide {hat he meets such other trades such as plumbers and bricklayers. requirements as are prescribed for registra­ tion as a house-builder in respect of Mr. LEE: It does, so that they can all come individuals generally or of a class of indi­ in. It is not class snobbery. The provision is vidual to which he belongs. What type of there specifically to let the small man in. snobbery are we involved in? What is the That is why it is there. Surely it is the phil­ need for paragraph (e)? What is meant by osophy of this Government to let the small that? lf he is qualified, is of good fame and man grow bigger. If that is not Liberal phil­ character, is competent, has the money and osophy, I am afraid I am not a Liberal. is not disqualified from holding a certificate, surely to God it should not be a matter of Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) how he squints or which old school tie he (1.59 a.m.): I wonder if the Minister would wears! I should like the Minister to dispense consider deleting the word "individual" and with paragraph (e). putting in the word "trade". Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing) (1.59 a.m.): No. I think Works and Housing) (1.56 a.m.): This pro­ this covers the position exactly the way I vision is specific to the subclause. It is intended it to be covered. I believe the pro­ designed to allow a small builder to start. vision is all right. I see no reason to alter it. If the board thinks he has not a lot of I honestly believe that the honourable mem­ experience this will give him a start. We ber is worrying about nothing . .are trying to give him a start, not to keep him out. The other registration board kept Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (2 a.m.): I am such people out completely. It was almost a quite satisified that the Minister is well cartel. Under this provision he will be able intentioned in introducing this Bill. Unfor­ to get a registration for one house, two tunately the good intentions are not being houses or 10 houses. It gives him a chance to borne out by the legislation put before m. prove himself over the years. It is very It is lamentable legislation. That is borne important that this provision be included so out by the number of amendments that the that the very small builder, the person in Minister has introduced. whom this Government believes, can get a start. That is one reason why that provision The Bill is couched in vague term3. is inserted. Obviously it is intended throughout that the vagueness will be overcome by the powers Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) that are given to the board. No doubt, one {1.57 a.m.): There is still a problem in the of the powers the board will take unto \\Ords, "a class of individual to which he itself is that contained in clause 27 (1) (e), belongs". Does that mean that we will fall of which the honourable members for foul of AI Grassby's race relations board? Everton and Toowoomba North complained. Will people say it is one thing for the rich The vagueness is there. There is nothing fellow and a different thing for the poor clear about it. Too much discretion is being fellow? What is meant by the words, "class given to the board. There is not sufficient in of individual"? I think we will run foul of the Bill for us as members of Parliament people by using that term. Are we to talk and legislators to be able to spell out to about dirty builders and gentlemen builders? the board the direction in which it should go. An Opposition 1\iember: Bowler hat As I have had no reply from the Minister builders. to the questions I posed about clause 27 (1) (c) for the deletion of conditions and re­ Dr. LOCKWOOD: It could even come to strictions, I can only assume that he is not that. prepared to accept that. I seek clarification on this. If possible I Mr. Lee: I told you why. would like the words, "generally or of a class of individual to which he belongs" Mr. LOWES: The Minister still wants deieted, unless there is some specific reason the board to be able to impose conditions for retaining them. Can we have a full explan­ and restrictions? ation from the Minister concerning that? Mr. Lee: If you take that power away, you have taken everything away. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing) (1.58 a.m.): T have Mr. LOWES: If the Minister is not explained why it was inserted. Firstly, the prepared to make that amendment and Bill is under the control of the Minister. allows the conditions and restrictions to 2948 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill remain, then for ·the sake of the board and bureaucrats will attempt to give us will be for the sake of the applicant builders that he does not meet "such other require­ would the Minister spell out to us here ments as are prescribed", he is not "of a and now what sorts of conditions and restric­ class of individual to which he belongs", or tions he has in mind as the type which the some other damned thing .Jike that. I again board could impose? ask that this be withdrawn. Mr. Houston: It's impossible for him. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing) (2.5 a.m.): If all of the Mr. LOWES: The Deputy Leader of the honourable member's worries come true, I Opposition says that it is an impossible can assure him that I have the right of veto question. so I suggest that he make representations to me. I give him •the assurance that if this Mr. Houston: It's impossible for the happens continually I will amend the pro­ Minister to answer; that's what I said. He vision. I cannot be fairer than that. doesn't know. Clause 27, as read, agreed to. Mr. LOWES: I do not put it on that Clause 28-Applications for registration- basis at all. I think it is fair and proper for the public at large-and pal'ticularly Mr. HALES (Ipswich West) (2.6 a.m.): the person who wishes to become a regis­ I refer the Minister to subclause (3) and ask tered builder under this proposed ·legis­ him what is the "fee as is prescribed"? lation-to know the sorts of conditions and restrictions ·that could be imposed. If such Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for conditions and restrictions are imposed on Works and Housing) (2.6 a.m.): This matter him, he ought to be able to know whether will be covered by regulations. In my intro­ those are impediments which can be re­ ductory speech I said that it would be the moved by appeal under a later section. same as applies to the registration board now. Would the Minister indicate to us just what So the builder gets his money back if he is conditions and restriotions he has in mind? knocked back.

Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Mr. HALES (Ipswich West) (2.7 a m.): Works and Housing) (2.2 a.m.): This is a That is not what the clause says. lt says clause which gives blanket discretion that part of the fee shall be refunded and to the board, irrespective of olass or cadling. I want to know why all of the fee will not Mr. Houston: What about creed? be refunded? Mr. Lane: Application fee, not registration Mr. LEE: If the honourable member fee. wants to talk about creed, I do not. We are not getting to sectarianism, creed, Mr. K. J. Hooper: He is speaking to the religion or anything like that. The honour­ butcher, not the block. able member is making a mockery of the whole thing at the moment. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing) (2.7 a.m.): The honour­ I believe that the honourable members able member for Merthyr has a great know­ are worrying when they have no need to ledge of the building industry because his worry. I have gone to a lot of trouble to electorate covers a vast area of building. I prevent the board from having such exten­ appreciate any comment that he makes and sive .powers that it interferes with a person's what he said is quite correct. livelihood to the point where he is unable Clause 28, as read, agreed to. to carry on. I think this blanket clause will fulfil that function. If it does not, it Clause 29-Restricted registration- will be amended at a later date. Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (2 8 a.m.): This clause outlines some of the conditions and Mr. LINDSAY (Ever.ton) (2.4 a.m.): I restrictions that I asked the Minister to tell would like to take the Minister up on that. us about when we were considering clause His statement is fine for as long as we have 27. The restrictions in this clause deal with a man like him who is familiar with the the number of homes to be built and the building industry and is a genuine person. value of them. The restrictions are not However, as I see it paragraph (e) is exhaustive. The clause includes restrictions designed not to Jet the little man in but to on the number or value of the homes that allow the bureaucracy to keep the little man can be constructed by a builder. They are out. I know that within 12 months of this only two of the restrictions that may be Bill becoming law I will be making repre­ imposed upon builders. sentations on behalf of some little guy who is of good fame and character, is sufficiently This is quite an iniquitous clause which competent, has sufficent financial resources will have the effect of controlling the income and is not disqualified, but for some funny of builders. If a builder has erected a house reason he has not been registered, he is a month for the past 12 months and wants cons:dered a person who may not be to build more, the board will have the registered-and why? The answer that the authority, no doubt subject to appeal, to tell House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2949

the builder that he cannot build any more Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) houses or that he cannot build a house above (2.12 a.m.): Elsewhere in the Bill there is a certain value. reference to restrictions as the board sees fit. After three months have passed, a builder When is the matter of value to be taken can aprply for review of ,the restriction by into consideration-at the time of application submitting an application with the prescribed or at the time of the completion of the fee. A house can certainly be built in six work? If the restriction is imposed that a weeks, even four weexs if the builder works builder cannot build a house worth $30,000 swiftly and has a large well-organised team. and, during the course of construction, he But what happens if a restriction is placed on discovers it will cost in excess of $30,000, a builder for some reason and he takes will he commit an offence under the Bill if longer than three months to build and then he completes construction and therefore be applies for review and gets out of it? I liable to a penalty of $1 ,000? seek an explanation on that point. All the restrictions are quite wrong. The Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for builder should be registered as a builder Works and Housing) (2.13 a.m.): This provi­ and, having been registered, that is it. We sion is not anti-free-enterprise. After all, a should not place restrictions on him telling builder has to be covered by insurance. He him how many houses he can build, thereby cannot be allowed to build houses wi!ly­ limiting his income, or the value of a house nilly. He would have to have an insurance he can build, again limiting his income. If policy to cover them. Let us be honest about the board takes these sort of powers unto things. There is no-one more in favour of itself there is no end to how far it can go. free enterprise than I am and I believe this to be a fair and reasonable clause. This is When the Minister was replying on clause part and parcel of the whole purpose of 27 I was interested to hear him say that he the Bill. If any members are so worried did not wish to give unlimited powers to the about the restriction, I remind them that it board. I will remind the Minister of that is still subject to the Minister's approval. when clauses 51 and 79 are being dis:;ussed. Members have said in their mvn words that I ask the Minister to consider the deletion I of clause 29. Mr. Moore: You mightn't be there. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Mr. LEE: I mightn't be here but-­ Works and Housing) (2.10 a.m.): A similar Honourable Members interjected. clause is working well in Victoria. It gives flexibility to the whole proposal. Builders The TEMPORARY CHAffiM.AN (Mr. can extend to 1,000 houses if they wish. The Miller): Order! [ remind the Committee that clause is to provide flexibility and to give the Minister is on his feet. the small builder a start. He may start with one house and a month later he may ask for Mr. LEE: Some members seem to think 50 houses. If he has shown that he has the that this provision is restrictive. I allowed the necessary capacity, he can extend the number Bill to lie on the table of the House in to 50 houses and he can make his request order to get the feelings of the industry. I one month after he has made the first. The have done that. Some members want me to clause is to give flexibility to allow the small restrict membership of the board to the Hous­ builder in and to let him grow. ing Industry Association. I said, "No, I will not have it restricted to H.I.A. I want it Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (2.11 a.m.): I sug­ wider than that." That is why it withdrew. gest to the Minister that he take a few of So the honourable members should not blame his advisers into a quiet corner and deliver me for something that it decided to send a a few swift kicks to their posteriors because telegram about. Let us be fair about the he has been snowed. whole thing. If the honourable member is able to demonstrate to me that it turns out Until now I have supported the Minister to be restrictive, I will amend it. because he is one of the free-enterprise advocates who are so rare in politics today. Mr. Houston: The skids are under you. But this would be the most restrictive, anti­ free-enterprise legislation that I have seen Mr. LEE: There are no skids under me. in a long time. It plainly gives to some anonymous little bureaucrat who does not Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) answer to anyone the right to tell a builder (2.15 a.m.): I am only seeking further what he is allowed to do. The clause contains clarification. If a builder has a restriction the words, " ... such as restrict by reference imposed on him at the commencement of a to number or value the extent of the build­ building, does the Minister see himself likely ing construction that the registered house­ to aHow an alteration of this restriction builder may commence ..." In other words, before he has completed the particular he has to front up cap in hand to some little building? bureaucrat behind a desk and say, "Please sir, can I build another three homes?" That Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for is not free enterprise and I hope the Min­ Works and Housing) (2.16 a.m.): I think I ister will take out this prov:s:.:n. have explained it fully. 2950 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (2.17 a.m.): The restrictions imposed by the board removed. I Minister said in reply to me on clause 29 therefore recommend to the Minister that he that it is all subject to the Minister, but I consider the deletion of clause 30. have reread clause 29 and there is nothing in it to say that the board is subject to the Hon. N. E. LEE (Y eronga-Minister for Minister. Works and Housing) (2.20 a.m.): This was explained in detail by the honourable mem­ Mr. Lee: You are a lawyer and you well ber for Merthyr, who said that it was a know it starts off "subject to the Minister". type of interim registration. The Builders' Registration Act provides for six months; Mr. LOWES: If that is the understanding in this Bill we have brought it back to the Minister has of clause 29, I can under­ three months. If we are trying to remove stand why we have so many of these restrictions, at least we are going in the amendments and why the Bill is such a right direction. As the honourable member disaster. I will ask him again during the for Windsor said, it is a type of probation. course of the evening-in fact I will ask him The house builder is covered by insurance. now: Would he please consider withdrawing We cannot let him go willy-ni!ly, or the the Bill? insurance company will say that it cannot cover him. Mr. LANE (Merthyr) (2.18 a.m.): I think Clause 30, as read, agreed to. what is intended by clause 29, or at least the explanation we were given by technical Clause 31-Registration rights and obliga­ officers during the time this Bill was going tions of body corporate or firm- through the Government party system, is that the restrictive registration referred to in Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for this way would probably be akin to an Works and Housing): I move the following interim registration, a registration which was amendment:- given in a restricted way to a builder who "On page 12, omit all words comprising was perhaps starting off in business in a lines 12 and 13 and insert in lieu thereof small way. He will be given a three-month the following words- opportunity to prove himself and then, of '(1) Subject to subsection (2), the course, he will graduate to full registration entitlement of a body corporate or firm as a house builder. That is the spirit of to be registered as a house-builder under these sections as they have been explained this Act shall'." to us recently by technical officers. That may be helpful to the Committee. Amendment agreed to. Clause 29, as read, agreed to. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Clause 30-Modification of restricted Works and Housing): I move the following registration- further amendment:- "On page 12, line 32, after the word~ Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (2.19 a.m.): If the 'shall not terminate the' insert the words- hope of this Bill is to prevent people losing their money through house-building, I am 'entitlement to'." afraid we will have the same experience with Amendment agreed to. it as we have had with the Builders' Regis­ tration Act. As I understand it, that Act was Clause 31, as amended, agreed to. introduced to stop people burning their Clauses 32 to 35, both inclusive, as read, fingers on building undertakings, and yet agreed to. since that Act has been in existence we have had just as many building company failures Clause 36-Roll fee- as there were before, and the companies which have failed have been those which Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for have even been contracting with our Govern­ Works and Housing): I move the following ment. So I do not think there is anything to amendment:- be gained by introducing legislation such as "On page 14, line 48, omit the word- this for the protection of the consumer. 'September' Clause 30 is only an extension of clause and insert in lieu thereof the word­ 29. The fact that the restrictions and the 'October'." conditions may be removed is no more than a sop, but the builder has to wait for some Mr. Houston: Why? three months before he can go to the board again to ask that the restrictions imposed be Mr. LEE: It gives builders a better chance removed. If he gets an adverse result from of registering. It allows them to keep their the board, he is again faced with the registration up to date, and it also makes prospect of going to appeal. So all this legis­ publication in the Gazette much easier. The lation is going to do is cause a great deal amendment is helpful, not a hindrance like of traffic in and out of the new board's the honourable member. office, and also a great deal of litigation by way of appeal to have the conditions and Amendment (Mr. Lee) agreed to. House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2951

Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for I am aware of the unnecessary cost that Works and Housing): I move the following could well be incurred by failing to give to further amendment:- the builder an opportunity to make good "On page 15, omit all words comprising any defective work. If the builder were to lines 8 to 29, both inclusive, and insert be given notice of the complaint received in lieu thereof the following words:- by the board, the builder would, in most 'If a registered house-builder fails to cases, without any further ado and without pay to the Registrar the prescribed roll any costly inquiries make good any such fee on or before the date stipulated in shortcomings. I have had this experience the notification, the Board may remove with builders who have sold homes and, his name from the Register. after possession had been given and taken, have been called upon in writing to make Such removal shall take effect as from good some defects that have been found. 1 January next following the date of In most cases-admittedly not all-the removal and notice thereof shall be builders come back and make good the published in the Gazette as soon as defects. It would be wise to include in the practicable thereafter. Bill a provision giving the builder reason­ (5) Where a person whose name is able notice so that before any inquiry is removed from the Register pursuant commenced he has an opportunity to make to subsection (4) is an individual who t!ood any defect. I therefore commend the is a director or member of the board ~mendment to the Committee. of management of a body corporate or is a member of a firm or is an employed Mr. MOORE (Windsor) (2.27 a.m.): The person referred to in paragraph (c) of amendment has a lot to commend it. Under section 27 (2) whose registration is this clause, which deals with suspension and necessary to the registration of the body cancellation by the board, a builder could corporate or firm, then, upon removal of come from another State, where he has his name from the Register, the name of committed an offence that in that State is the body corporate or firm shall also not an indictable offence but in Queensland be removed from the Register.' " is an indictable offence, and could there­ Amendment agreed to. fore lose his licence. In the circumstances Clause 36, as amended, agreed to. it is only reasonable that the builder be given some notice in writing so that he can Clause 37, as read, agreed to. prepare a case. Clause 38--Suspension and cancellation by Board- Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Homing) (2.28 a.m.): I believe Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for that the amendment I moved covered that Works and Housing): I move the following specific point, so I do not see any real point amendment:- in making further amendments to the clause. "On page 15, line 35, omit the word­ Amendment (Mr. Lowes) negatived. 'The' and insert in lieu thereof the words­ Clause 38, as amended, agreed to. 'Subject to section 39, the'." Clause 39-Procedure for disciplinary action by Board- Amendment agreed to. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Hon. N. E. I"EE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing): I move the following Works and Housing): I move the following amendment:- further amendment:- "On page 16, omit all words comprising "On page 16, line 8, omit the ex­ lines 30 to 38, both inclusive, and insert pression- in lieu thereof the following words:- '27 (2}' '(2) After the inquiry referred to in and insert in lieu thereof the expression­ subsection (1) the Board may- '31 (1}'." (a) determine to take no further Amendment agreed to. action in relation to the com­ plaint; Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (2.26 a.m.): I (b) reprimand or caution the regis­ move the following amendment:- tered house-builder; "On page 16, after line 19, insert the following words:- (c) by its order, subject the registra­ tion of the house-builder to such '(3) The Board shall make no order conditions and restrictions as it under this section without giving to the thinks fit; house-builder previous notice in writing of its intention to so cancel or suspend (d) by its order, suspend for a period the registration of the house-builder and determined by it the registration allowing the house-builder to show of the house-builder upon a cause why such order should not be ground specified in section 38 (1) made.'" and proved in the inquiry; or 2952 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

(e) by its order, cancel the registra­ Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (2.34 a.m.): I tion of the house-builder upon hope that the Minister will take into con­ a ground specified in section 38 sideration the type of complaints that will (1) and proved in the inquiry.'" be made. In many instances they will be quite frivolous. The board needs discretion. Mr. LINDSAY (Everton) (2.31 a.m.): As We have already talked about many of its it reads, clause 39 indicates that, whether powers and there are more to come, but there the consumer's complaint is large or small, is nothing here to say that the board can the board, upon receipt of a complaint exercise discretion if it finds that there is against a registered house builder has no some cause for complaint but it is of a alternative to sending to the registered house frivolous nature. I would hope that the builder a notice of the complaint made board would be given that discretion, and I against him and give the house builder an believe it should be included in the Bill. I opportunity to show cause why his registra­ would think an amendment is required to tion under the Act should not be cancelled the effect that, if a complaint is made, only or suspended. It could be just a minor com­ upon proof of the cause of the complaint plaint. When I had a1terations done recently to the satisfaction of .the board will the there were a couple of minor problems like registered home builder be given a notice a sticking door and a knob falling off a to show cause. In other words, the board closet. But under this provision there will will not be bound to give notice to show be no out, no way of dealing with a minor cause merely because a complaint has been complaint. It also appears that, irrespective lodged about some mere trifling, piffiing of the materials used, a builder who acts in defect in a building. good faith could be in trouble. The man who did my renovations in good faith sup­ plied a closet with a faulty knob. That was Mr. H:ALES (Ipswich West) (2.36 a.m.): I not his fault but that of the closet maker. am of the same opinion as the member for As it stands, the clause has two weaknesses. Brisbane. As I read the clause, it says- Firstly, it does not cater for the handling "(a) send to the registered house-builder of minor defects which, presumably, could a notice in writing of the complaint be fixed quite easily by negotiation. Secondly, made against him and particulars it does not take into account faulty materials thereof; and for which the blame cannot be placed on "(b) conduct its inquiry into the matter the builder. Bricks would be one item that of the complaint, giving to the fall into this category. registered house-builder an oppor­ tunity to show cause why his regis­ Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for tration under this Act should not Works and Housing) (2.33 a.m.): Apparently be cancelled". the honourable member has been speaking to the H.I.A. Surely there is no need for that H it is only a minor complaint. There should not be any Mr. LINDSAY: I rise to a point of order. reason for him to show cause. As the I have not done that. Minister is shaking his head, apparently I misunderstand the Bill. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Miller): Order! There is no point of order. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing) (2.37 a.m.): As far as Mr. LEE: I accept the honourable mem­ I am concerned, the honourable member ber's explanation. does. If people continue to lodge frivolous The board will take action upon complaint complaints about a builder, a surcharge of against a registered builder. That is better $100 will be ·imposed on the premium. A than an inspector thundering in and saying, reasonable amount of protection is afforded "Listen, buddy, your work is so-and-so." It to him. The board members should be is far better to do it in that way. At least it competent and reasonable persons. They is upon complaint to the board, whereupon wiH bear in mind the very thing the honour­ the board has to send notice to the registered able member is saying and give the builder house builder. That gives the builder pro­ that protection. I believe that clause 39 (2) tection. Under the insurance scheme, persons gives the board sufficient discretion. I am who make frivolous complaints will have to sure that ·in the event of a frivolous complaint pay $100. the board will not deregister the builder. If a brickie lays bricks with faulty mortar Amendment (Mr. Lee) agreed to. he is responsible but if the bricks fail, I believe that is where the insurance company Clause 39, as amended, agreed to. should come in. The insurance company Clause 40, as read, agreed to. cannot cop all the cream without having to put something out. If the bricks are bad Clause 41-Annulment of cancellation, it is the fault of the brick maker not the etc., of registration- builder. The insurance company would have a direct claim on the brick maker, not the Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (2.38 a.m.): My builder. That is how the protection for the remarks about clause 41 (2) and (3) are builder and the home owner is provided. similar to those I made about clause 27, House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2953 which dealt with restrictions and conditions up greatly because of some of the exper­ imposed, and the following clauses 29 and iences with the right of people giving evi­ 30, under which the restrictions can be dence. The honourable member for Lands­ modified or removed. I ask the Minister borough has experienced this problem. We again, . as I asked him before, to consider have made the provision much looser so removmg these clauses which enable the that a person can go into the court or into board to impose conditions or restrictions. the board and represent a builder whereas before, unless he paid a solicitor, he had no I refer to the last few words of clause right to be represented by anybody else. This 41 (2) that "a condition or restriction" may has worked for five years under the Act and be "of less effect at any Nme and for such I am sure it will again. reason as the Board thinks fit." Here we come back to the board's wide discretion. Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (2.43 a.m.): The There is nothing to say that the board will Minister fails to see my point. Clause 44 exercise its discretion judiciously. I ask the says- Minister to consider the removal of all sorts "The decision of the court on an appeal of restrictions and conditions which may be shall be final and conclusive and the Board imposed by the board. shall give effect thereto." Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Clause 53 says- Works and Housing) (2.39 a.m.): Surely the "The making of an order under sub­ honourable member does not want a builder section (1) ... shall not affect the power who has gone broke to start up again. Surely of the Board to take disciplinary action he does not want a builder to continue under section 39 ... irrespective of ... doing faulty work or defying the board. the outcome of that appeal." Surely, in an extreme case where the builder Maybe I am stupid or something. is not doing the right thing, the board has to have a right to cancel his registration. Mr. K. J. Hooper: You said it. That is what I believe. The board has a discretion and I have a discretion. The Mr. GYGAR: The honourable member for board should have the right to cancel the Archerfield is willing to support me there. registration of a fly-by-night jeny-bui!der, the The Minister just cannot do things like bloke who is taking down the widow. That that. Either the court's decision is final or it is why the board should have this discretion. is not. The Minister cannot have one clause saying it is final and another clause pro­ Clause 41, as read, agreed to. viding that regardless of what the court says, Clauses 42 and 43, as read, agreed to. the board can do what it likes. Clause 44-Nature of appeal- Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing) (2.44 a.m.): I believe Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (2.41 a.m.): Fol­ that it will work. The board must have the lowing on my last suggestion to the Min­ right to stop a builder. Once a builder has ister about what he should do to some of been stopped, he has the right of appeal. his officers, I think he should shoot his What the honourable member is saying is draftsman. that the board can deregister a builder whilst he still has the right of appeal. The provisions contained in clause 44 are totally and absolutely inconsistent with those Mr. Gygar: What I am saying is that under contained in clause 53. clause 53 the board can still make an order irrespective of the outcome of the appeal. Clause 44 concludes with the sentence­ "The decision of the court on an appeal Mr. LEE: Clauses 44 and 53 deal with shall be final and conclusive and the different things. I am sure the honourable Board shall give effect thereto." member is worrying unnecessarily. Clause 53 (4) provides that no matter what Clause 44, as read, agreed to. the court says, the board can do as it likes. It reads- Clause 45-Building construction by body corporate or firm- "The making of an order . . . shall not affect the power of the Board to take Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (2.45 disciplinary action under section 39 . a.m.) : As well as providing for supervision irrespective of- of building, this legislation should also pro­ (b) if such an appeal is made, the vide a mechanism to ensure that adequate outcome of that appeal." tradesmen are available in the building indus­ try. This is one of the problems of the Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for industry. Many master builders have not Works and Hous-ing) (2.42 a.m.): First of all, lived up to their obligation to engage it is an appeal to a court of law. That is their quota of apprentices. Consequently what it means-an appeal to the Magistrates the building industry at the moment is in Court. After the board has made a decision, a very parlous state because of a lack of if the builder does not like it he can appeal skilled tradesmen. The position has been to the Magistrates Court. The appeal pro­ exacerbated by the fact that since the Fraser vision has worked so far. It has been loosened Government took office hundreds of skilled 2954 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

workers have left the industry. Their skills Mr. LEE: If the honourable member wants and training have been lost because they to read it literally right down to the last have been forced to seek more stable detail, I suppose it almost says that, but occupations. let us be honest. If a builder has a super­ Mr. Gygar: Your reading has improved. visor looking after up to 100 homes, that is quite reasonable. The clause will be Mr. K. J. HOOPER: The honourable applied in a practical way. The honourable member for Stafford has not improved. He member knows that that is not the intent is still bone between the ears. of the clause. If anybody is fined for doing The building industry has special problems what the honourable member has said, I that should be dealt with by a specialised will use my discretion. board such as the House-builders' Regis­ Clause 45, as read, agreed to. tration Board. If action is not taken by the State Government to ensure that suf­ Clause 46, as read, agreed to. ficient skil!ed tradesmen are available, build­ ing costs will skyrocket, particularly when Clause 47-0ffences by persons not young couples are again able to afford registered as house-builders or concerned to buy their own homes with the advent with building construction by persons not of a Labor Government in the Federal so registered- sphere in 1977. Of course, with a shortage of tradesmen any skilled worker will be Mr. LANE (Merthyr) (2.51 a.m.): I able to command a handsome wage. I do move the following amendment:- not think the Minister heard what I said. "On page 20, after line 17, add the Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for words- Works and Housing) (2.47 a.m.): I heard 'Performance of building construction what the honourable member said. If he in relation to a building that is to would tell Hughie Hamilton to get his comprise two separate residences shall carpenters back to work and have fewer be taken not to contravene paragraph strikes, building would be a lot cheaper. (a) or (b} aforesaid if- Mr. HALES (Ipswich West) (2.48 a.m.): at the time of such performance one The provision in this clause concerning signs of such residences is used or intended worries me a little. I shall probably be for occupation by the person per­ rubbished by the Opposition in a few forming the building constmction.'." minutes. I well remember some time ago The amendment I have moved is consis­ some of us in the real estate business tent with the intention I outlined during erecting signs around the district, particularly the second-reading debate and seeks to cater on houses, but they did not stay there for the construction of what is called a very long. A few larrikins decided that they granny flat, the adding of a second resi­ looked better at Redland Bay. What worries dential unit to the private home by an me is that signs can be taken from sites owner-builder to accommodate perhaps an by larrikins and, if an inspector comes around aged relative or someone Eke that in those and finds them missing, ,the builder con­ additional premises. The owner-builder cerned could be in trouble. is precluded from doing so by the Bill in its I have a second point on which I should present form, but the simple amendment like clarification from the Minister. Under will allow two residences to be constructed the old legisLttion, a registered builder had by an owner-builder provided that it is to be on the site virtually at all times. intended that one be kept for the occupancy If a builder was erecting a dozen homes of the person performing the work, that is and employing a number of carpenters, he the owner-builder. He is, of course, pre­ clearly could not be on the 12 sites at vented from selling or otherwise disposing of the same time. Will the Minister explain the premises, as is any other owner-builder this situation? who constructs a single unit dwelling.

Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Hon. N. E. LEE (Y eronga-Minister Works and Housing) (2.49 a.m.): I should for Works and Housing) (2.53 a.m.): like to ask the honourable member if he The amendment moved by the honour­ has ever been fined because he has not able member for Merthyr stems from had signs in the right place. I think dis­ his study of the Bill while it was lying on cretion was exercised under the previous the table for some six months. After he legislation and there will be a similar exercise read the Bill he came to me and mentioned of discretion under the proposed provision. this point. I could see the wisdom in it I have forgotten the honourable member's and I said to him that if he wished to do second point. so he could move such an amendment from the floor of the Chamber. He has since Mr. Hales: Under the original legislation supplied me with a copy of his amendment. a registered builder had to be on each site It has been read and I certainly accept it even though he may be erecting 12 houses because I believe that a person has every in the one area. right to construct a second residence for House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c, Bill 2955

the purpose of accommodating, say, his Builders' Registration Act shows that they parents or grandparents. I accept the are no better than those built before the amendment. Act came into force. This clause will have a detrimental effect Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) 2.54 on all values, and I would ask the Minister a.m.}: The Opposition supports the amend­ to consider the thousands and thousands of ment moved by the honourable member for home owners existing in the State now rather Merlhyr, but it is passing strange that the than those who may come in the future Minister should rise and give us a lot of should the Bill become law. flimflam about a conversation that took place between him and the honourable Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for member for Merthyr. I recall taking the Works and Housing) (2.57 a.m.): The amend­ Minister to task in my speech at the second­ ment moved by the honourable member for reading stage because in his introductory Brisbane would eliminate an area of con­ speech he had referred to the construction sumer protection that I consider is absolutely of granny flats. essential. After all, the name of the Bill is the House-builders' Registration and Home­ Mr. Le,e: Who did? owners' Protection Bill, and the proposed amendment would eliminate the protection. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: The Minister did. We might as well not have a Bill if we take He made reference to them in his intro­ that out. ductory speech. I suggest that he reads his speech again. When I perused the Bill, and Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (2.58 no doubt when the honourable member for a.m.): Clause 47 makes no provision for Merthyr perused the Bill-it is quite obvious protection for pensioners and low-income that he knov. s more about the Bill than the earners with families. It also allows any Minister does-it became obvious that there person to undertake constructions to the was no reference in it to granny flats. I say value of $1,000. Is that correct? to the Minister that he has his wires crossed. Mr. Lee: Y C$. Amendment (Mr. Lane) agreed to. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: Naturally, any work that costs less than $1,000 is of the extension Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (2.56 a.m.): I and repair type. We all know that many move the following amendment:- unlicensed builders and jerry-builders operate "On page 20, omit all words comprising in this field. lines 18 to 36, both inclusive." The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. I move the amendment because I believe that Miller): Order! I point out to the honourable the words in those lines would have the member that we are dealing with the amend­ effect of deflating in value all houses that ment as moved by the honourable member have been built and exist at the date on for Brisbane. which the provisions of the BiH come into operation. I hear a member of the Opposition Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I thought it had been saying that I just want to encourage fly-by­ dealt with. night builders. I am more concerned with the protection of people who already have Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) homes built and who are going to suffer a (3 a.m.): Mr. Miller,-- loss of value with the introduction of this legislation. The words that I propose should Mr. Marginson: Since when are you a be omitted require a vendor, whenever he builder? sells a house not covered by the Act, to Dr. LOCKWOOD: I will tell the honour­ give notice to the purchaser that the house able member the difference between a crippled is not covered by the House-builders' Regis­ beam and a crippled stud and show him how tration and Home-owners' Protection Act. to fix it. That can only deflate the value of every existing home, and I do not think that is a The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! fair and reasonable proposition for the I ask the honourable member to speak to present owners. the amendment before the Committee. Most of the houses would have been built Dr. LOCKWOOD: Clause 47 (3) will quite faithfuHy and would be quite sound; necessitate very complicated conveyancing in but because they happen to be built before the sale of a house. There will need to be a certain date they do not come under the produced mortgages, plans, specifications, provisions of the Bill and the owners are approvals, inspection reports, certificates of being penalised, no matter how sound the registration of the builder, certificates as to houses may be. Their homes will be regarded the age of the building and .the date of as second-rate homes and homes of a lower completion, details as to cost and details standard than homes that may come under of extensions made to the building. I ask the provisions of the Bill. Whether they are the Minister to explain if any pro forma in fact any better because they are under will be produced to make the conveyancing the Bill remains to be seen. The evidence we simpler. have seen so far of buildings built under the Amendment (Mr. Lowes) negatived. 2956 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Mini&ter for Contrary to the opinion expressed by Gov­ Works and Housing): I move the following ernment members, I think the Minister is amendment:- competent enough to handle two things at "On page 20, line 37, after the word once. I just gave the Minister a bouquet. 'deemed' insert the words- I said that contrary to the opinion of Govern­ 'in respect of a person who immedi­ ment members I think he can handle two ately before the commencement of things at once. this Part was a registered builder I am of the opinion that "A person" should within the meaning of the Builders' be defined differently-! hope the honourable Registration Act 1971-1973'." member for Brisbane agrees with me-to include a firm or body corporate and any Mr. LINDSAY (Everton) (3.2 a.m.): The group of persons. Minister has already indicated his strong support for the retention of the clause as it Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (3.6 a.m.): stands. As he is so keen on its retention I I raise the point with the Minister that there am surprised to see that a person who con­ is some conflict between this legislation and travenes this provision is liable to a penalty the Builders' Registration Act. If a person of only $250. Other penalties prescribed are has his house repaired or extended, the $1,000. It would seem that in connection limit under the Builders' Registration Act is with sales of dwelling-houses worth $30,000 $500. The conflict arises in that restumping to $35,000 a penalty of only $250-- or cementing under a house does not appear to come under the Builders' Registration Act. Tb.e TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Miller): Order! I point out that the honour­ Mr. Lee: Yes, it does, in an earlier pro­ able member is talking to subclause (3). The vision. Committee has already passed that subclause. 1'\'lr. WRIGHT: I question that because in Amendment (Mr. Lee) agreed to. one instance it is $500 and in the other it is $1,000. We should have consistency. How Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (3.3 can we state specifically that restumping and a.m.): As I was saying before, pensioners other things come within the terms of the and low-income earners with families are not legislation? protected by the Bill. M~. Lee: That is covered in one of the earlier clauses. Mr. Frawiey: They are so. Mr. WRIGHT: That is stated clearly? Mr. K. J. HOOPER: They are not. It Mr. Lee: Yes. is quite obvious that the honourable member has not read .the Bill. Clause 47 allows any Mr. WRIGHT: When we were debating person to undertake construction to the value the Builders' Registration Act we were told of $1,000. that all aspects were covered but after com­ plaints from our area we found that they Mr. Casey: Even service station owners. were not covered. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: Even service station I make the further point that, because owners. The only work that would cost less the penalty is limited to $1,000, people may than $1,000 is work of the extension and not get the redress that they deserve. A repair type and, as we all know, many problem may involve $3,000 or $4,000, but unlicensed jerry-builders operate in this field. the builder could say, "I will cop the penalty of $1,000 and not carry out the board's In its 1976 report the Builders' Registration request. I will ignore the order and pay the Board stated that a large number of unregis­ penalty." I see some difficulties. It seems to tered builders operate in the alteration and me that we should impose a minimum penalty extension area of the building industry. This of $1,000 and give the board discretionary is a specialised field requiring substantial power to make sure that a householder gets expertise. Unfortunately, pensioners and low­ full redress if defects involve $2,500. A income earners form a considerable section further problem will arise when we are of the market for this type of work and they debating clause 53. I should like the Min­ are normally not in a position to pay the ister's comments on this matter. I do not cost of having faults rectified when they are think this provision goes far enough. I have discovered. heard comments by Government members who want creampuff legislation with all con­ The board's efforts to prosecute these sumer protection removed, but I take the builders in the past have often been thwarted stand that we are not going far enough. by the fact that they induced the old owners to build as home owners. This legislation Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for extends the amount of work that an unregis­ Works and Housing) (3.7 a.m.): When the tered builder can undertake from $500 to other Act was introduced some years ago, the $1,000. Under the Victorian legislation it is maximum penalty was $500. In the light of an offence for any builder to enter into any inflation, that provision needs amending. This building contract unless he is registered. I legislation provides a penalty of $1,000, will deal with both aspects. which I think is a reasonable figure. House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2957

Mr. Moore: You get nothing for $1,000. Mr. Burns: It is $10 cheaper than the insurance. It is $10 cheaper to be fined as Mr. LEE: I accept that interjection from an illegal builder than to pay the insurance the honourable member for Windsor. premium. As to saying that the penalty will be Mr. LEE: No, it is not. $1,000 or $2,500, it will be up to $1,000 and, so far as I am concerned, that is what it Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the will be. A maximum is provided but the Opposition) (3.12 a.m.): If the Minister penalty imposed can be lower. is right in saying that the penalty for the first offence is a maximum of $50 and a Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (3.8 a.m.): home is built by a firm known as ABC What will the homeowner do if the problem Builders, which is not registered, it pay~ a involves $3,000 or $4,000? He complains to fine of $50. On the other hand, if the firm the board. The person I have in mind did registers, it has to pay its registration fee not advise in writing that the house was built and the insurance premium of $60. It seems by an unregistered person. That is th~ pro­ to me that the minimum penalty ought to vision in subclause (3) that the Mrmster be greater than $50; if it is not. it is cheaper stuck by, and I agreed with him. But what for a smart operator to get fined $50 on happens if the problem involves $6,000, as every house he builds. He is in front. it could with some of the repairs that are effected? Today, it costs $5,000 or $6,000 Mr. Lee: Each one is a breach. to add a room. What can a person do when there is a penalty of only $1,000 to fall Mr. AKERS (Pine Rivers) (3.12 a.m.): The back on? point that the Leader of the Opposition h~s raised is not relevant. In several places m Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for this Bill we see the wording "Penalty: Works and Housing) (3.9 a.m.): This is $1,000." In one place there is a penalty where insurance comes in. That will look of $250. This clause provides for a penalty of after it. $50 for the first offence, $100 for the second offence $200 for the third offence and $400 Clause 47, as amended, agreed to. for the fourth or subsequent offence. Is it a Clause 48-Procedure to allow building set $1,000 penalty or is it a maximum penalty construction on own dwelling-house- of $1 ,000? Is it a set penalty of $50 for a first offence and a set $100 for a second Mr. AKERS (Pine Rivers) (3.10 a.m.): offence or not? I think we should have that As probably the only registered builder in clarified. the Parliament, I think I have some right to speak on this Bill. Several times I have Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for tried to get the ca1l, Mr. Miller, and you Works and Housing) (3.13 a.m.): All penal­ have passed the clause I was hoping to ties are the maximums. The fine could in discuss. fact be anything under those amounts. We do not have such things as maximums in Honourable Members interjected. the Liberal or National Parties. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Opposition Members interjected. Miller): Order! The Committee will come Mr. LEE: I had better correct that. to order. meant "minimums". Mr. AKERS: Several parts of this Bill Clause 48, as read, agreed to. contain the expression "Penalty: $1,000." Clauses 49 and 50, as read, agreed to. In this clause we see- Clause 51-Board's power to exempt­ "Penalty: $50 for a first offence; $100 for a second offence: $200 for a third Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (3.14 a.m.): Clause offence; $400 for a fourth or subsequent 51 makes all our deliberations so far tonight offence." quite farcical. I would like to know from the Minister Mr. Marginson: It has been farcical all whether that is a set penalty or whether night. those amounts relate to the maximum penalty. Mr. LOWES: We have been asked to con­ sider this Bill and a!! the amendments to Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for it, lengthy as they are, yet we find a clause Works and Housing) (3.11 a.m.): For the giving the board all the :power to undo first offence, yes, it is a maximum penalty. everything we have done so far, which I am As far as I am concerned, on this occasion sure comes as news to the honourable mem­ it would be a set penalty. ber for Wolston. Mr. Akers: You had better clarify it, The Minister said that he was not inclined then, because no distinction is shown. to give to the board unlimited powers. That Mr. Burns: If a man built a home and was is exactly what he has done here. The clause not registered, would the penalty for the reads- first house be $50? " 51. Board's power to exempt. (1) The Board may, with the Minister's approval, Mr. LEE: Yes. by its order published in the Gazette, 2958 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

exempt a person or class of person or should stand by these rules. It seems to me building construction or class of building that this is a discretionary power that should construction from the operation of all or be given to neither the board nor the any of the provisions of this Act either Minister. absolutely or subject to such conditions as the Board specifies in its order." Mr. Burns interjected. What are we doing here? Why do we bother Mr. WRIGHT: The Leader of the passing legislation if we insert a clause which Opposition mentioned the secrecy in these can undo and fly in the face of everything matters. that we decide here? We do not come We should support the honourable mem­ here to legislate and to insert clauses to ber for Brisbane in this matter and press allow a board to act in any fashion at all, for the deletion of clause 51. capricious though it may be. We do not come here to legislate to give a board, Dr. LOCKWOOD (Toowoomba North) which is not elected and has no respon­ (3.19 a.m.): I seek some clarification. sibility to answer to the people, powers that Perhaps this might apply to the erectors of we do not have. We do not want to pass such mundane things as garden sheds, pre­ legislation giving with the one hand and fabricated carports and the larger prefabri­ taking away with the other. I cannot cated buildings. Would that be correct? Is understand how such a clause was ever that the sort of thing that the clause refers drafted. It is a negation of 'the whole Bill. to? We are asked to decide the clauses, to give our attention to these matters and decide Hon. N. E. LEE (Y eronga-Minister for what we believe should be the law for home Works and Housing) (3.20 a.m.): Clause 4 builders in Queensland. Having done all of includes an explanation of what is a bui:lding. that, we insert clause 51 which provides It certainly is not a tin garden shed or a that, irrespective of what we do, the board carport. can do what it likes. Whatever we decide here is of no consequence. Surely the Minis­ Clause 51, as read, agreed to. ter would have regard to such a clause. Its Clause 52, as read, agreed to. deletion would not affect the remainder of the Bill and I implore the Minister to con­ Clause 53-Remedy for unsatisfactory sider deleting clause 51 in its entirety. work- Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister Works and Housing): I move the following for Works and Housing} (3.16 a.m.): amendment:- There is really nothing new in that "On pages 22 and 23, omit all words clause. It is already in the Builders' Regis­ comprising line 44 on page 22 to line 2 tration Act. It is a completely normal pro­ on page 23, both inclusive, and insert in vision to take care of extreme and unfore­ lieu thereof the following words:- seen circumstances. After all, it is with the Minister's approval. 'or caused by such a person to be performed has not been performed in a proper and workmanlike manner the Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (3.17 Board, in writing served on that a.m.): I support the honourable member for person- Brisbane. While the Minister says that we are looking at extreme circumstances, we (c) may order him to remedy the are dealing with an everyday problem in building work that is faulty or home-building. I cannot think of any ex­ unsatisfactory; or emption that~ would arise. This is one area (d) may order him to demolish the in which there should be no exemptions. building work that is faulty or unsatisfactory and to perform The Leader of the Opposition called it a that work again, crony clause and that is ·the best description in either case subject to the condition it could be given. There is no suggestion that the person concerned may perfor'? of the circumstances under which exemp­ the building work lawfully under th1s tions will be given. No prerequisites are set. Act or in so far as such condition is not Are we going to reach the situation we satisfied- have in employment where some indepen­ ( e) may order him to cause the dent schools and church groups can pay building work that is faulty or shockingly low wages because of an exemp­ unsatisfactory to be remedied; or tion granted a long time ago that no-one has (f) may order him to demolish the been able to do anything about, although building work that is faulty or the honourable member for Archerfield has unsatisfactory and to cause that raised the matter on a number of occasions work to be performed again, on behalf of ·the workers who are suffering in either case by a person who may under it? We do not want to perpetrate perform the building work lawfully that type of exemption here. I do not under this Act,'." believe anyone should be exempted. Surely it is a basic requirement that everybody Amendment agreed to. House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2959

Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (3.22 a.m.): I Mr. Frawley interjected. move the following amendment:- "On page 23, omit all words comprising Mr. BURNS: We have paid him. My wife lines 13 to 20, both inclusive." paid two-thirds or three-quarters of the This subclause sets up two different types of money involved. justice. Even though a house builder may Mr. Akers: I hope you didn't do the have appealed successfully against a decision electrical work. of the board, the board may still penalise him by imposing conditions or restrictions on him. Surely if we make allowance for Mr. BURNS: No, I did not, but I could appeals and they are upheld, they should be have done a better job than Frawley if I allowed. Surely if the board is defeated on had had the opportunity. appeal it is not to be allowed to impose The fact is that women are approached some other penalty of its own making. This by the builder who says, "Give me a sub. would mean double standards and two Give me some money. I put some timber on brands of law for two jurisdictions. My the job and I need the money to pay for it." amendment is to delete subclause (4) as it But people often find that where two-thirds stands. or three-quarters of the money for the job Mr. BURNS (Lytton-Leader of the Oppo­ has been paid to the builder he just does not sition) (3.23 a.m.): The honourable member want to come back, and small penalties with­ for Brisbane is suggesting that we should out threat of some disciplinary action being remove from clause 53 the subsection that taken against him by the board just means allows the board to discipline a builder who he will not come back. has failed to do a job properly and who has been asked to remedy it. As I see it, this Dr. Lockwood interjected. means that if a builder does a bad job and is asked to repair it, the board should do Mr. BURNS: That is what this is all about. nothing more about it. The honourable mem­ The honourable member for Brisbane is ber for Brisbane suggests that nothing should saying that because he has been told to be done about disciplining the builder. remedy the job we should not then discipline him, that even though he has appealed against I support the Bill and I am ashamed of the the decision of the board because he ha3 actions being taken here tonight in favour of been told to repair the job, the board should shoddy builders against the consumers. not take any other disciplinary action and Mr. Lee: They have every right to do it. registration should not be taken off him. I do not think this clause is strong enough. I Mr. BURNS: They can do what they like, think the trouble we have in this community but it has to be made clear that what they is that far too many subcontractors who go are saying is that shoddy builders should be on to a job have no intention of completing protected and consumers should not be it if they can get out of it. One sees it protected. The facts of life are that people all over the place. The Opposition has large come to members saying, "I paid this man lists of jobs like this. We have a large list $3,000 to do a job and when I asked him of complaints to the Builders' Registration to come back and repair it he would not Board. The honourable member for Stafford turn up." This clause provides that the board and others can stand up to protect the builcl,:r will give h1m reasonable time and, if he does who does not complete the job and rips off not come within that time, it v.ill be the consumer, but I support this clause. I extended to give him the opportunity to think it should be even more powerful. come back again. Regarding the proposal of the honourable If a person pays money for a job to be member for Stafford earlier on the nature done by a registered builder, he ought to be of the appeals from clause 44 as against required to return within a certain time to clause 53, one was against deregistration and complete the work. On too many occasions the other one was that if the builder was workers have been conned into paying $4,000 appealing against his deregistration he would and $5,000 of a $6,000 job and the builder still be required to remedy the fault. Does has thrown a few bricks or some pieces of the honourable member mean to tell me that timber in the front yard and failed to turn if a builder's registration has been threatened up to do the work. If contacted the Builders' and he has appealed, the board should not Registration Board will send out an inspector. be able to tell him to fix up the job he He will get on to the builder, who then puts made a mess of? a couple of subcontractors onto the job for a couple of days. As soon as the inspector Mr. Gygar: It is the other way round. goes away, the customer is once again left Sit down and let me tell you all about it. alone. I know many jobs that have been left for six months. In fact, I have an extension Mr. BURNS: We will give the honourable in progress at the rear of my house that the member the opportunity, but I say to him builder promised would be finished before that after the way he argued about clauses Christmas but which is not finished yet. I 44 and 53 if he was defending me on a have not been to the Builders' Registration charge of drunken driving I would end up Board, but that clause will not help. being charged with stealing. 2960 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (3.28 a.m.): If So there are two clauses that do not fall the Leader of the Opposition was ever together. Clause 44 says the court's decision charged with drunken driving I would be on shall be final and conclusive; but clause 53 the sidelines cheering that they had caught (4) says that, irrespective of what the court him at last. There is something dreadfully decides on appeal-it may say that the man wrong being perpetrated here. What we have is not guilty of any workmanship that requires to decide is: are we going to trust the courts him to restore any building or even to work or are we going to trust the arbitrary on it-the board can still take his licence decisions of bureaucrats? Unfortunately, the away from him. Where is the sense in that? way the Bill is framed we are placing the arbitrary decisions of bureaucrats on a higher Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (3.31 a.m.): The plane than those of the courts of appeal. Leader of the Opposition is either begging the question or he has not read the whole of Let us just follow through a case that the clause. The words to which I was refer­ could happen. A person does unsatisfactory ring particularly are in subclause (4)­ work. Under clause 53 the board has the "irrespective of . . . the outcome of that power to make an order that he remedv appeal", the board may take disciplinary that situation. The board issues an order action. and says, "Fix it up." Under clause 54 the person can then appeal to the Magistrate5 Mr. Burns interjected. Court. So the order is out against him. He appeals against the order under the terms Mr. LOWES: The Leader of the Opposition of clause 54. Now, if we go back to clause says that I have moved that the whole 43 it states- clause be deleted. If he puts forward another "Every Magistrates Court has jurisdiction amendment, I might be prepared to listen to to hear and determine an appeal made it. Because of the conflict, two brands of to it or remitted to it pursuant to this justice are being administered. I think that Act." conflict should be resolved by taking out of the Bill the whole of the clause. I do not Clause 44 carries on with that and says that think that the board should be entitled to the decision of the court on an appeal shall take any disciplinary action irrespective of be final and conclusive and the board shail the outcome of the appeal. If the appeal has give effect thereto. been successful, why should the board be entitled to fly in the face of the decision Let us recap. The board has made an on appeal? The board might say, "Maybe order saying, "Fix up the job". The bloke we lost the appeal, but we will do what we has decided that the board is wrong. He want to do. We will put some conditions has appealed to the court, as he has the and restrictions on the builder." Surely it is right to. His appeal has succeeded. The Bill a contradiction. says that under clause 44 the decision of the court shall be final and conclusive, but under Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for clause 53 (4) it says that, notwithstanding the Works and Housing) (3.32 a.m.): The board fact that the courts have said that the board has discretion only if there is faulty work­ shall not make this order because it is a manship, and I do not believe that the clause wrong order, the board can then go out and says what is worrying honourable members. I take disciplinary action against him and take do not agree entirely with the Leader of the his registration away from him irrespective Opposition, but he certainly was on the of the outcome of the appeal. So what the right track. Minister is attempting to perpetrate here is that the board tries to fix a fellow one way Mr. Houston: He was helping you. and takes out an order against him; the courts throw it out and then the board says that, Mr. LEE: I do not say that he was not. irrespective of what the courts say, it can I do not believe that the provision will cause still deregister him. That is madness. I problems. If the workmanship is really faulty, would suggest it is probably just a drafting surely the board has the right to cancel the error on the part of the Minister's little builder's registration. There is then an appeal bureaucrats who have gone off on a tangent to a Magistrates Court. As I see it, there somewhere along the line to allow this is nothing wrong with that. In my opinion, situation to arise. But we simply cannot this will not take it any further. have a situation (if the Minister has finished joking with the Minister for Survey and Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (3.34 a.m.): The objection here is that if the board makes Valuation) where a court can decide that a an order against a builder for faulty work­ man has been subjected to a wrong penalty manship and he takes the matter to court and then let the bureaucrats have their and wins, and the court says to the board, revenge by striking him off the register, "Your order was wrong", the Minister is irrespective of what the courts say. It is not saying that, in spite of that, the board still good enough. Either the courts win or the has the power to overrule effectively the bureaucrats win, and I was under the strange court's decision by deregistering the builder. impression that, under the present legal I suggest to the Minister that the way system, the courts were supposed to win each around this is to delete in line 18 all words time. after "work". This will delete all reference House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2961

to the provision that says "irrespective of of this final appeal, the cancellation will whether an appeal is made", or, if it is made, still take place. Surely that is wrong. So the outcome of the appeal. In that case, the Minister should look at the removal of common law would surely prevail. If a man the final part, that is (b). Either that is takes his case on appeal and obtains a satis­ to be removed or alternatively we throw factory solution in the courts, the board will open clause 39 again and remove part (e). be bound by the court's decision. That is what I am seeking to achieve-that if a man Mr. Gygar: We have to keep that cancel­ goes to a court and goes through the legal lation going. process of arbitration, the finding shall be binding on both parties. Mr. WRJGHT: That is part of the dis­ ciplinary action. So really our choice finaJ!y This provision in fact puts the tradesman is not what the member for Stafford is in a double bind. An order is made to restore saying-not to take away (a) and (b) -but the work, the court says the order is an to remove (b). If we do that we might unjust one and the board bounces back overcome the problem. and says, "Sorry about that, but we are not going to take the court's verdict. We will Mr. AKERS (Pine Rivers) (3.38 a.m.): deregister you anyway, because we are given I see the problem that is raised here. It the power under line 18, irrespective of the worries me that whether or not there is an decision of the court." appeal this action can still be taken. I suggest Surely the solution to this problem is to that the Minister report lack of progress and make the order of the court binding upon ask leave to sit again. the board as it is upon everyone else and not allow this slimy little back door that Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for it can get out by. It makes an initial order Works and Housing) (3.38 a. m.): I am saying that he will repair the work, and if certainly not going to report progress and it cannot get away with that one surely it ask leave to sit again. First of all, the should not be able to deregister him on the board does not have the power to over­ same grounds. The court says it does not rule the court's decision. It cannot deregis­ have a case to order the work to be repaired. ter for faulty work, but it must first establish One way or the other, it has to go. No-one the negligence or the incompetence of the is saying that if an order is made and the builder. These are two different things. If court upholds that order he should not be the court finds that the board's order is deregistered as well. The Minister should unfounded, it does not mean that the court not take it that way. What we are saying finds the tradesman to be a competent is that if an order is made and the court builder. They are basically two different throws it out he should not be deregistered. things. Amendment (Mr. Lowes) negatived. Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (3.36 a.m.): I rise to speak to the specific question that Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (3.39 a.m.): We has been raised by the member for Stafford. are back to square 1. I stiil think the Jf he is going to cut this off at the word Minister does not appreciate the point we "work", that is not going to resolve anything. are trying to make. He has said that if the In fact, it makes it so open-ended as to give order is thrown out by the court the board the board total discretionary power. At least should have another go at the builder. But in this instance we have set down two that is not the way it is. The Minister is specifics. But I would agree that part (b) giving the board two bites at the apple. of subclause ( 4) seems to create some That is not the way our legal system works. problems. I think this clause should be If action is taken and it fails, a new set related back to clause 39. Regardless of of circumstances must be produced to justify the outcome of the appeal, disciplinary the same thing. Under this provision we are action can stili be taken. No-one would putting a man in double jeopardy. When object to that, except possibly for clause an order is made, the man can appeal to 39 (2) (e), by which the board may cancel the court and it can determine that the the registration of the house builder. That order was not based on firm grounds. But is the only one that really arises for argu­ under this provision, despite the court's deter­ ment here. I think all of us would agree mining that the grounds are not firm, the that the board needs to have the power to board will still have an opportunity to take send a registered home builder a notice in disciplinary action based on the same grounds. writing, to conduct its inquiry, to determine It is a double jeopardy situation that has not to take further action and to do all the always been rejected in our law and always things that are set out there, other than should be. We are giving the board an the final cancellation of registration. arbitrary power to override the court of appeal and that cannot be done. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that we cannot pull the clause out, as the Hon. J. W. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove­ member for Brisbane wants to do. However, Minister for Survey and Valuation) (3.41 we will not achieve much by doing what a.m.): I think the Bill encompasses two com­ the member for Stafford wants to do. It pletely different things. In the first place seems to me that there is a legal problem clause 39 (1) provides that the board has to here in that, regardless of the outcome listen to a complaint, whether it be trivial 2962 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

or otherwise. Having listened to the com­ Hon. J. W. GREENWOOD {Ashgrove­ plaint, the board may take certain dis­ Minister for Survey and Valuation) (3.45 ciplinary action. For argument's sake, let us a.m.): I agree with what the honourable say that it is a relatively trivial matter. If member has said, but that does not alter my we turn to clause 53 (4) we see that by no point of view. I did not have the Bill before stretch of the imagination does it deal with me when I was speaking before-! accept trivial complaints. It refers straight back to that it is a disciplinary clause. I simply clause 53 (1), under which there are two rephrase what I said. Just because a building possibi·lities. One relates to the rectification has not been built badly enough to justify of work and the other to the wholesale its being demolished and rebuilt at enormous demolition of the work. Clause 53 (1) really cost to the builder, it does not follow that deals with the most serious possible aspects under clause 39 (1) the board should not of bad work that could be done by a builder. reprimand him and tell him that it is not The board is allowed to make such orders. good enough; that it is not of a sufficiently After the board has made an order for high standard. demolition, a builder can go to the Magis­ trates Court, which may take a completely Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for different view from that of the board. It Works and Housing) (3.46 a.m.): I agree may say, "This work is bad but it is certainly completely with what the Minister for Survey not bad enough to be demolished and com­ and Valuation has said. I have asked my pletely rebuilt." So the builder has a win advisers and the Parliamentary Counsel, and and does not have to demolish and rebuild. their advice to me is exactly parallel with But tl:!at does not mean that the board what the Minister for Survey and Valuation should not be able to exercise its rights under has said. Because two different things are clause 39 (1) and order that relatively trivial dealt with, I believe that the clause should things should be corrected. That is why I stand. say we are dealing with two different areas Clause 53, as amended, agreed to. of remedy. On the reasons put forward I do not believe that we should deprive the Clauses 54 to 56, both inclusive, as read, public of one area of remedy. agreed to. Clause 57-0ffence to disobey order under Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (3.43 a.m.): s.53- I listened attentively to what the Minister for Survey and Valuation said, but I have Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (3.47 a.m.): also changed my view on this after having I raised a point before, when we were talking had a discussion with the Leader of the about clause 46 and the penalties involved. Opposition. I have thought of the possibility We have referred to remedies in clause 53, that while a person is registered he can to appeals against board orders in clause 54 continue to build other things. I think that and to the powers of the court on appeal in subclause 39 (e) should be kept so that the clause 55. Clause 57 deals with the position cancellation can take place. A complaint of a registered person or builder who disobeys might be against building "A" while there are an order under clause 53. This brings us, as 10 or 12 buildings that are just as bad. If I see it, to the problem we have had with this person is not stopped somewhere he the Builders' Registration Board. After a will continue this form of building. Believing tremendous amount of time elapses, the that the whole provision should be retained, Builders' Registration Board simply says, I withdraw any objection I had. "There is nothing much else that can be done about it." In this legislation the person Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (3.44 a.m.): I will can be fined $500. not attempt to dispute in legal terms the opinion of the Minister for Survey and When I previous•ly raised the quantum of Valuation, but I think he has his wires penalty-and I think in this instance it is crossed in thinking that clause 39 allows extremely low-the Minister said that a person can claim under insurance. I would remedies. It is not a remedies clause but a like to know the maximum amount a home­ disciplinary clause. The sort of things it builder is able to claim under his insurance. relates to are reprimands, deregistration, sus­ I see the problem arising of the builder pension of registration for a time and making copping the penalty all the time. If the a registration subject to such terms and problem relates to a home construction and conditions as it sees fit. It is not a remedies is worth a couple of thousand dollars, the clause like this one which concerns builder will hold out. He will not obey the remedying the building work or demolishing board. He will not carry out the remedies. it. If it were a remedies clause I would agree He will not repair, replace, recompense, or whole-heartedly with the Minister's line of refund (or whatever the case might be) all reasoning. As it is a punitive clause, the moneys expended. He will simply hold out same situa•tion does not apply. We are and say, "I am not going to obey you." saying that the court has thrown out the In clause 53 we have the term "reasonable remedy but the board may still impose time specified by the Board in its order." the punitive measures. That does not lie well. We do not know what that is going to be, If the courts have determined that there but we know that it is a legal term. "Reason­ shall not be a remedy, surely there shall not able time" is what the reasonable man will be a punishment. say is fair. However, I ask the Minister House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2963 exactly what redress is available. If he pays building industry is often the victim of Gov­ the $500 and cops that, but still will not go ernment policies. Companies face boom-and­ back and remedy the situation and demolish bust situations. I think that the Minister, as it and replace it, as the Minister for Survey an old builder, would agree with that. The and Valuation has said, what happens then? policies of the present State and Federal How long will it take to get redress? Governments of high interest rates for home-ownership have led to the collapse of Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for hundreds of large and small builders. Every Works and Housing) (3.49 a.m.): The insur­ time a builder is bankrupted or a company ance takes over. The insurance company is wound up, the workers lose thousands of cannot sit back and do nothing. It has a dollars in holiday pay, sick pay and wages. part to play in this. Where a builder defies every order made on him and he is fined, the Some of the bigger people like Kratzmann insurance company then has to employ are white-collar crooks. They go bankrupt, another builder and pay the costs. That is but they do not go broke. We read in the the general idea of it. Press about Kratzmann going broke but he owns a big penthouse in Torbreck and a flash Mr. Wright: Pay the costs of the dispute? home on the Gold Coast. I have said on previous occasions that every time people Mr. LEE: According to the insurance like Kratzmann float a new company they premiums, whatever they are. They are yet simultaneously book a hearing with the Bank­ to be made by regulation. The figure is up ruptcy Court. to $25,000, which is a fair and goodly por­ Mr. Frawley: They have gold-plated taps. tion of a home. The premium alters when it gets up to $50,000. It is not as much Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I have said before because of the 10 per cent that applies that the bathroom and toilet fittings in the above $25,000. Insurance has to play its Kratzmann flat at Torbreck are gold-plated part. for the white-collar crooks' pale bottoms. Mr. Wright: You do not see any delays If the Bill is to provide full protection for here at all? all concerned in the building industry, I am of the opinion that a fund should be Mr. LEE: No. I think there must be established to guarantee wages in the industry reasonable time. when companies collapse. On this basis clause 58 should be extended. Mr. Frawley: The insurance companies will duck and weave for three months. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing) (3.53 a.m.): This matter Mr. LEE: On this occasion it is the board has been discussed at length with my com­ and not the insurance company that is lhe mittee and in the joint party room. There­ insurer. A different set of circumstances fore I feel I cannot amend it. applies. It is different from bringing the Clause 58, as read, agreed to. insurance company in. The chairman can make the inspection straight away or the Clauses 59 to 61, both inclusive, as read, claim can be made on the board. It is not agreed to. an insurance company but the board that is Clause 62-Presumed house-purchaser's the insurer. agreement on insurance- Clause 57, as read, agreed to. lion. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Clause 58-Board to be given notice of Works and Housing): I move the following contracts and to be paid insurance amendment:- premiums- "On pages 25 and 26, omit all words comprising line 28 on page 25 to line 32 Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (3.51 on page 26, both inclusive, and insert in a.m.): Under all legislation covering building lieu thereof the following words:- companies, the workers' wages are never '62. Presnmed house-purchaser's agree­ guaranteed if the company collapses. That ment on insurance. (1) Whether or not is a cold hard fact of life. section 58, 59 or 60 is complied with, the Board shall be deemed to have entered Mr. Frawley: You are wrong there. You into an agreement (called a house­ are misleading the Committee. The Pine purchaser's agreement) with every purchaser Rivers Shire Council paid all the back wages. and to have thereby assumed an insurance risk provided for in the following sub­ Mr. K. J. HOOPER: The Pine Rivers sections and the prescribed form of house­ Shire Council is not a building company. It purchaser's agreement. is to be commended on paying these people. (2) Every house-purchaser's agreement Because the Pine Rivers Shire Council is not shall be deemed to be in the prescribed a building company, I have not misled the form and to contain provisions- Committee. The honourable member has his wires crossed again. A. for or with respect to insuring the purchaser against- As I was saying before I was so rudely (a) loss or damage suffered by him interrupted by that inane interjection, the by reason of breach of the warranty 2964 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

referred to in section 69 (2), where building construction and if notice such breach is due to the bankruptcy in writing of the defect is received of the individual, the winding-up of by the Board from the purchaser the body corporate or the dissolution within three months after he of the firm by whom the building con­ becomes aware of the defect; struction referred to in provision (a) (ii) where the loss or damage is of section 58 (1) was or was to be suffered by reason of a defect in performed; the dwelling-house to which the (b) loss or damage suffered by him cover relates that is other than a by reason of breach of the warranty major defect or that is a major referred to in section 69 (2), where defect of which the purchaser such breach consists of a failure to should, on reasonable grounds, complete the building construction have become aware before the referred to in provision (a) of section expiration of six months from the 58 (1) due to a cause other than an date of completion of the building event referred to in the preceding con&truction, only if 'the defect provision (a); becomes apparent to the purchaser before the expiration of six months (c) loss or damage suffered by him from the date of completion of the ·by reason of a breach of the warranty building construction and if the referred to in section 69 (2), where notice in writing of the defect 1s such breach consists of defects in the received by the Board from the dwelling-house that comprises or con­ purchaser within one month after he tains the building construction, which becomes aware of the defect; and defects first become apparent after the completion of the building con­ C. with respect to reference to arbitra­ struction; tion of any dispute between the Board (d) loss or damage suffered by him and a purchaser arising out of the by reason of subsidence or settlement agreement.'" (other than by earthquake) of the Amendment agreed to. foundations of the dwelling-house and by reason of defects arising from such Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for subsidence or settlement in the dwell­ Works and Housing): I move the following ing-house, whether or not such sub­ further amendment:- sidence or settlement is due to a breach "On page 26, omit all words comprising of the warranty referred to in section lines 46 to 50, both inclusive, and insert 69 (2); and in lieu thereof the following words:- (e) such other risks as are specified ' ( 4) A reference "defects" in sub­ in the prescribed form of agreement, section (2) includes a reference to subject to such conditions as are defects in the provision made in a specified therein; dwelling-house for lighting, heating, cool­ ing, ventilation, air-conditioning, water B. providing the insurance cover supply, drainage, sewerage and other specified in paragraph A subject to the appurtenances of a dwelling-house.' " following qualifications:- (a) in relation to the loss or damage Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (3.56 a.m.): Do I referred to in provision (a) or (b) understand that the references to faulty or thereof, only if notice in writing of unsatisfactory work and defects as a result the breach of warranty is received by of subsidence and settlement remain in the ,the Board from the purchaser within Bill? two years from the date of the con­ tract for performance of the building Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for construction; Works and Housing) (3.56 a.m.): No. They (b) in relation to the loss or damage are being removed. referred to in provision (c) thereof- Amendment (Mr. Lee) agreed to. (i) where the loss or damage is Clause 62, as amended, agreed to. suffered by reason of a defect in Clause 63-Recovery of payments made the dwelling-house to which the under house-purchaser's agreement- cover relates that is a major defect other than a defect of which the Hfrn. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for purchaser should, on reasonable Works and Housing): I move the following grounds, have become aware before amendment:- the expiration of six months from "On page 27, line 3, after the word the date of completion of the build­ 'agreement' insert the words- ing construction, only if the defec[ 'on account of a breach of the warranty becomes apparent to the purchaser referred to in section 69 (2) '." before the expiration of six years from the date of completion of the Amendment agreed to. House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2965

Clause 63, as amended, agreed to. Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (4.1 a.m.): I move the following amendment:- Clauses 64 to 67, both inclusive, as read, agreed to. "On page 30, after line 8, insert the words- Clause 68-Building contracts to be in writing- '(6) Nothing in this Act shall make the house builder liable for any damage which may occur to any building work Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (3.58 a.m.): I move the fol!owing amendment:- as a result of subsidence or settlement of land.'" "On page 28, line 50, insert after the words 'to which it relates' the words­ I believe that if this clause is included in the 'and has annexed thereto a copy of Bill in its present form, there will be a great the plan of and the specifications for increase in building costs because no builder the said building constructions.' " in his right senses would undertake the building of a home in any area where there 1 feel that without such documents being is any record of soil movement, and that made an annexure to a contract, if a com­ includes large areas of Queensland and plaint is made within six years the parties certainly all of the black-soil country of will be at a great disadvantage. I believe Queensland west of the Dividing Range. that the annexure of plans and specifications No builder is going to build a home in w building contracts would overcome such those areas without doing ground tests and problems. even the smallest and simplest test would cost something like several hundred dollars. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for He will then not be prepared to build until Works and Housing) (3.59 a.m.): I feel he has an engineer's report, which will cost that this is unnecessary. After all, there are another $100 or $200 so a person is looking many builders in the West who do not at an expenditure of $300 to $500 on the necessarily have plans and specifications for simplest of jobs. The cost of a $20,000 home their work. We are not trying to regulate would just keep building up. the activities of the small builder who gets I heard the honourable member for Rock­ :a pad and draws a plan and says, "That's hampton say earlier that this Bill contained what I will build for you." It is not necessary insufficient protection for the consumer. I to engage an architect or draughtsman to do not believe ·there is very much in the have work done by small builders. Even if Bill to protect the consumer. In fact, al­ there is only a simple plan on a piece of though perhaps unintentional, quite the paper, if there is faulty workmanship the reverse will happen because this Bill will builder is liable to correct the defects. What greatly increase the cost of building. Who the amendment proposes would merely place is going to pay for that in the long run? The consumer! All the inspections which a burden on the whole system. It is read will be necessary under the Bill will do into it, anyway. nothing more than increase the cost of Amendment (Mr. Lowes) negatived. building. The requirements that a builder shall accept responsibility for subsidence Clause 68, as read, agreed to. and settlement are quite unreasonable. If that is included in the Bill, it will merely Clause 69-Presumed warranty in increase the cost of building because a building contracts- builder will have to protect himself by over­ insuring and doing other things which would Hon, N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for not ordinarily be done by a builder. It is Works and Housing): I move the following proposed that a builder should be liable for amendment:- any damage caused by subsidence or settle­ "On page 29, line 39, omit the word­ ment and I believe a provision to the con­ 'and'." trary should be inserted to exclude any Amendment agreed to. liability which may result from subsidence or settlement. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing): I move the following Works and Housing) (4.4 p.m.): If I accepted further amendment:- the amendment it would, in my opinion, "On page 29, after line 39, insert the allow a house-builder to escape the con­ words- sequences of his own faulty work. Provided '(c) shall be deemed to relate to the he carries out his work in a proper, work­ provision of lighting, heating, cooling, manlike fashion clause 62 looks after him. ventilation, air-conditioning, water It defines "subsidence". Surely a builder supply, drainage, sewerage and other building in black soil would know what appurtenances of a dwelling-house in precautions he should take to prevent a association with the performance of building shifting. building constuction; and'." Mr. Moore: He would need the Almighty Amendment agreed to. on his side, I'm telling you. 2966 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

Mr. LEE: He is supposed to know what Provided that where the obligation good and reasonable building practices are. is to perform building work or to do If he is in doubt and he is in a gully or a any other thing such that the person on hollow which he thinks a subdivider may whom a like obligation is deemed to be have filled with bushes and it may subside, imposed is not authorized under this subject to his taking precautions and Act to perform or do, the obligation receiving a certificate-- deemed to be imposed on such person shall be to cause the building work to Mr. Lowes: Why not let the common be performed or other thing to be done law prevail? by a person who is authorized under this Act to perform that building work or, Mr. LEE: It has been taken care of in as the case may be, do that thing. clause 63, and he is in the clear if he has a certificate. If he has taken reasonable pre­ (3) Where the person who commits cautions, the matter will be covered by an offence against this Act is a firm a clause 62 (2) A and clause 62 (3), and so on. prosecution may be brought against the firm in the name in which its business is Amendment (Mr. Lowes) negatived. carried on, service of process being effected by service on one or more of Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (4.6 the partners in the firm or, if the firm a.m.): As to section 69 (4) (a) and (b)-I has a registered business name, on a am of the opinion that an additional sub­ person at the principal place of business section should be added to read as follows:- of the firm, and the firm may be "Notwithstanding (a) and (b), where it convicted in that name and ordered to is proved that the building is not in pay a penalty for its offence. accordance wi,th approved plans and specifications and/ or the requirements pre­ Where a firm is convicted and scribed under any Act controlled by the ordered to pay a penalty pursuant to this subsection each member of the local authority, the local authority firm shall be liable to pay that penalty certificate shall be considered null and void as the present Building Act by-law 8 and the same may be recovered from gives council approval for the inspection such member: trenches, footings and drains." Provided that the amount of any penalty shall not be recovered more This is being interpreted wrongly, and some councils have now stopped inspection of than once.' " timber framing and brickwork generally. Amendment agreed to. Therefore, one cannot rely on the council certificates for dwelling-houses, which they Clause 78, as amended, agreed to. are not strictly bound to issue for class 1 Clause 79-Right of entry and inspection occupants. I think the Minister will agree by Board's agents- that I am correct on 'that point. Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (4.9 a.m.): The Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for clause says- Works and Housing) (4.7 a.m.): The Act "A member of the board and any person stands completely on its own without the authorized in writing in that behalf by the Local Authorities Aot, and I am sure that Chairman of the Board may at any time the matter raised by the honourable member enter upon land and premises on w~ich is covered completely. building work in relation to a dwellm!S­ house is being performed and therem Clause 69, as amended, agreed to. make such inspections and inquiries as he Clauses 70 to 77, both inclusive, as read, considers necessary... " agreed to. The dwelling-house may be occupied by the Clause 78-Application of Act to bodies owner at the time, and I believed that we, corporate and firms- as a Government, were wholly opposed to entry without warrant and entry without Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for notice. This clause gives any person who may Works and Housing): I move the following be authorised by a member of the board amendment:- power to enter at any time without a warrant. "On page 31, omit all words comprising In my opinion, we, as a Government, just lines 22 to 25, both inclusive, and insert will not accept such a clause as that, and if necessary I think we will have to look at in lieu thereof the following words:- the numbers in the Committee. '(2) Where by this Act an obligation is imposed on a body corporate or a Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for firm it shall be deemed that a like Works and Housing) ( 4.10 a.m.): I agree obligation is thereby imposed on every with the honourable member for Brisbane director or member of the board of that it was never my intention nor that of management of the body corporate or, the Government under this clause to give as the case may be, on every member the board the right to enter. Having spoken of the firm: to the honourable member for Brisbane and House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977) and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2967

having sought advice from the Parliamentary lVIr. Lowes: We are talking about a home Counsel and my officers, I now move the owner sitting in his house. following amendment:- "On page 31, line 26, omit the words­ Mr. Moore: This is any building. 'A member' Mr. K. J. HOOPER: This deals with the and insert in lieu thereof the words­ right of entry and inspection by the board's 'Upon receipt of a complaint by the agents. Board and for the purpose of inves­ tigating that complaint a member'." Mr. Moore: Yes, to any building. Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (4.11 a.m.): I Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I still feel an inspector remember the occasion when the Minister for should have the right to enter provided the Aboriginal and Islanders Advancement and builder or homeowner is not unduly harassed. Fisheries came into the Chamber with a bad I cannot see anything wrong with that. I brief and was decent enough to take it back know that some inspectors employed by the to his committee for review. When it came State Government and various local govern­ back to Parliament the Bill was in a far ments tend to be a little bureaucratic at better state and was acceptable to us. In times. Nevertheless, provided they are court­ the beginning it contained all the offensive eous and give the homeowner or builder types of clause, and it was only after review some notification I see nothing terribly wrong by the Minister and his committee that they with it. were removed. It is a great pity that the Minister in charge of this legislation has Mr. Gygar: It is usually called a warrant. not seen fit to take it back to his committee and have it properly ironed out. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: The honourable member may call it what he likes. Quite Right through the Bill we have seen frankly I see nothing wrong with it. excessive use of power by the board. We have seen the function of Parliament Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for abrogated by the board; we have seen the Works and Housing) (4.16 a.m.): I believe function of magistrates on appeals abrogated that the amendment takes it back to the by the board; and now, on top of that and, clause which says, "Upon complaint". How despite the fact that the Minister said in a can one get a warrant when there is no debate on one of the earlier clauses that alleged offence? The honourable member he did not wish to give to the board knows my views. I believe that the amend­ unreasonable powers, here we find a right ment cures the situation in that an inspector Df entry at any time without warrant. I do cannot enter without a warrant. We can only not believe that we are in favour of that. accept the advice of the Parliamentary The amendment moved by the Minister does Counsel. not .solve the problem one scrap. It is a solutiOn that has been prepared for him on Mr. Moore interjected. short notice and inadequate time has been allowed for its consideration. Mr. LEE: I ask the honourable member This is an important princple and one to be reasonable. The Parliamentary Counsel that has been debated in the party room so works under instructions. If somebody instructs him wrongly, why should he take often. I would have thought that the Minister all the blame? I have taken some of the and the Parliamentary Counsel would know blame and I have already told the honour­ that a . provision of this type is not one able member for Brisbane that I will amend that thrs Government will accept. We do the provision in the way that the Parliament­ not believe in the right of entry into a ary Counsel believes will overcome the prob­ person's home at any time without notice. lem. I have said a dozen times that it is not I don't know how many times we have to my wish to have a person enter under a spell this out. The frequency with which v.arrant without complying with everything clauses such as this bob up is sickening. I that we believe in as members of the Liberal don't know whether someone is drafting them and National Parties. I believe that everything on an old set of precedents or how these is covered. If that is not so I shall be the Dffensive clauses are getting into legislation. first to suggest an amendment, but I believe The amendment moved by the Minister is not the amendment is completely effective. acceptable to me. I would ask him even at this late stage, to take it back and have Mr. AKERS (Pine Rivers) (4.17 a.m.): The a look at it and bring the Bill back here amendment proposed by the Minister does not when it is in a form that is acceptable to us. say that entry shall be at a reasonable time. Mr. K . .J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (4.14 An inspector can move in at any time. I a.m.): I disagree with the honourable mem­ hope the right of entry will not be abused, ber for Brisbane. Whilst I agree that no but it could be. The word "reasonable" must builder should be unduly harassed by a be included. I also believe that the provision building inspector, surely an inspector has limits inspectors to some extent (although the right-- that was not intended) because it says, "enter upon land and premises on which building Mr. Moore: This could be in your own work in relation to a dwelling-house is home. being performed." That means the work must 2968 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977)] and Home-owners', &c., Bill

~e under way. When the job is finished the lobbies a few minutes ago was that this was. mspector cannot enter. He must have some intended to give the board's agents a roving right of entry. commission to raid houses and places where construction was proceeding-to tear on in Mr. Lowes: It could be an extension to an existing home. and say, "Are you a registered builder?" and make other interesting inquiries. The clause says that an authorised person may enter Mr. AKERS: I agree. premises "on which building work in relation We must fix up the time that inspectors to a dwelling-house is being performed and are allowed to enter. If the Minister's therein make such inspections and inquiries amendment means that the complaint is as he considers necessary for the proper from the owner or occupier, it is reasonable. administration of this Act." Are they to get If the. comp.laint is made by the owner or a roving licence? Is it the intention that occup~er an mspector should be able to enter these raiders should descend upon any af!er receiving the complaint, and I do not building work, tear in and make such thmk he would need a warrant. It is not inquiries as they intend? If that is the case, relevant at that stage. An inspector must this clause has just got to go. They have to have some sort of complaint and I think the get v.arrants if they want to pull that sort am~11dment covers that. The Minister must of nonsense. We don't live in a police State now cover the time he is allowed to enter yet, thank heavens. and the fact that he will be allowed to come in later. If we are to go back to the original propo­ sition put by the Minister-and the one that Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (4.19 p.m.): With I hope is extant-I still find objection to due deference to the Minister's advisers the the clause as it is written, because it states amendme_nt he .h~s moved either absol~tely that once he gets into a place he can make 15utted th1s provisiOn and made it completely "such inspections and inquiries as he con­ Irrelevant or It does not help. The Minister siders necessary for the proper administration cannot have it both ways. The Minister said of the Act." It is just a little bit wide for that upon receipt of complaint by the board my liking. What does it mean? Does it mean and fo_r the J:urpose of investigating that that once a person opens the door the inspec­ complamt. an mspector may enter. Placing tor can tear the place apart? If I open the the best light on this, that will be construed door to an inspector and he starts to get as m~aning a complaint by the owner of the obnoxious and stroppy about various things, dwellmg-house. If the Minister is saying that ~fter a person complains to the board the I will throw him out. If he wants to go in msp~ctor .can enter on that invitation, why is there and do specific things, then it is fair he. msertmg tha! provision? If a person is enough for him to specify those things to a gomg to complam and say, "Look, come in magistrate and to obtain a warrant to do so. here and see what a terrible job I have" he has a common law right. They can g~ in I have long lost the starry-eyed idealism there. We do not need a massive clause that I came into this place with two and a ~bout. the whole thing; so, if that is the quarter years ago; but I did think that we mtent1on, why not scrub the whole lot? The had established certain principles-only about same purpose will be achieved. three victories, maybe. One of t.hem was that no-one got into a dwelling-house without .Wha.t the Minister originally said was that a warrant. This clause just does not fit the ~h1~ w1ll now provide that a person who mv1tes them to come in can let them in bill. Tha,t is stupid. If that is the purpose, w~ don t need It. However, if a construction is Hon. J. W. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove­ to be put on the word "complaint" as relating Minister for Survey and Valuation) (4.23 to a person ~ther than the willing occupier a.m.): I think that we are all at one-on of that dwel!mg-house, I suggest it is just this side of the Committee, at least-in the sa:ne as rt was. ~efore. It is the right of insisting that in every Act an owner of a entry mto an unw1llmg occupant's dwelling­ house is protected against bureaucrats and house without a warrant. strangers walking in and invading his privacy. Therefore, one way or another that Let us start off with the ackrrowledgement amendment just doesn'•t wash. Either it'makes that we are all agreed on that. Now let us the whole clause irrelevant or it does not look at just precisely what this Bill means. achieve the purpose for which it is stated to What we are talking about in this clause is be intended. I have heard two stories about a house that is under construction. what this clause is supposed to achieve. The Mr. Moore: No, it isn't. story that the Minister just put up was that this would allow inspectors to enter dwelling­ Mr. Gygar: Not necessarily. houses of people who complain. I reiterate Mr. Moore: "Any work". that if that is so, we do not need the clause. If the people complain and say, "Come on Mr. GREENWOOD: A house that is under· in.", the inspector can come in, anyway. The construction, or a h'ouse in which building other explanation that was put to me in the work is being carried on. House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill 2969

Let us take the two situations and con­ Residential Tenancies Act. Having inspected sider what happens, because the owner-the it, he does not like it, so he calls the board man who lives there if the house is finished, and appears at the front door at any time, or the man who might not have possession as stated in the Bill, enters the property, (and remember that) if the house is under conducts his inspection, pulls down the -construction-makes a complaint because ceiling and does whatever he likes. That is the owner is not satisfied with the way not what we are here to provide and that the builder is doing the job. When the is not something that I will accept. owner makes a complaint, under clause 39 This needs a lot more thought than the the board has a duty to investigate that hasty scribblings of the draftsman in the complaint made by the owner, who is either lobby, trying to get out of the bind he has the resident or, because the thing is still being got himself into. The Bill can be reintro­ built and he does not have possession, that duced later. This clause will not be agreed owner might not be the resident and might to tonight if I have anything to do with it. in fact have no right to be on the property himself if the builder has possession. Any­ Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (4.28 a.m.).: It how, the owner makes a complaint and he is obvious that the Minister for Survey and wants the board to do something. Valuation has undergone some sort of min­ So what rights has the board under the isterial metamorphosis to stand here tonight 'Clause as it is proposed to be amended by and say thM this is just a machinery clause ethe Minister? The right that the board has when in fact it is a right of entry at any is that, upon receipt of complaint by the time. To suggest that the person who would board and for the purpose of investigating go along to the house seeking entry would be that complaint, it can send not an irrespon­ a member of the board defeats my compre­ sible person but either a member of the hension. board or somebody authorised by the board Mr. Greenwood: That is what it say~. in writing along to the house at the request of the owner and there investigate the Mr. LOWES: Of course it says that and owner's complaint. it says that the Minister can do things. But it is most unlikely that any member of the How anybody can suggest that that is an board will be doing it. The board will interference with the rights of the owner issue authorities and the inspectors will visit or is an intrusion of his privacy baffles my the premises. The Minister was trying to comprehension. confuse the issue or to mislead the Com­ mittee by saying those inappropriate things. So that once the Bill is read as a whole I do not think that anybody fell for that and once a study is made of what dause story. No member of the board that I 39 says about complaints from the owners know of would be likely to be an inspector. of buildings and then a study is made of A member of .the board would do the clause 79, it becomes obvious that this is authorising and an inspector would enter a remedial clause designed to protcet house­ the house with the authority of the board. owners and not to interfere with their privacy. Taking only the case of a house being built was again misleading. That may be the case. There are cases in which houses Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (4.26 a.m.): I are being extended and only minimal altera­ thank the Minister for Survey and Valu­ tions are being made. Alterations have only ation for his learned exposition, which to cost $1,000 before the provisions o~ the proved only one thing-that the clause is Bill take over. For that sum, practically irrelevant, if one accepts the basis on which nothing can be done. I am informed that he rested his argument. If a willing owner the estimated cost of building is $2,000 wants people to come onto his property, a square. So what sort of improvement there is no need for legislative provision need it be before the provisions of the -for him to enter the place. The owner can Bill have effect? say, "Please come in" and he can go in. If one accepts that approach to the problem, The Minister said that the owner may we can scrub the whole clause because it not be resident in the house. In fact, the .is completely irrelevant. resident may not be the owner. That is the proposition put up by the honourable mem­ The Minister did raise one interesting ber for Stafford when he speaks about tenants. situation-where the owner is in fact a The owner may have made a complaint to landlord with a tenant in possession. What the board about some aspect of the building, happens then? The owner lodges a com­ but he may not be the occupier of it. plaint and the owner, perhaps in conjunction The building may be rented. An inspector with this Gestapo force we are about to authorised by the board can appear at any :form, tears up to the front door and says to time, day or night, without notice and the tenant, "To one side, brother, we are com­ without warrant, and demand, on pointing ing in." He can do that at any time, entering to the relevant section of the legislation, upon the dwelling house to inspect the job that he be given access to the property. that was done on the kitchen ceiling, which That is not what we believe should happen. he does not like and for which he has to I do not think that any Minister is likely give 48 hours' notice to inspect under the to introduce such legislation. Now that I 2970 House-builders' Registration [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] and Home-owners', &c., Bill have heard from the Minister for Survey Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for and Valuation, I am wondering if he has Works and Housing) (4.35 a.m.): Yes, I similar action in mind on some of the intend to proceed with the amendment as is, legislation that he will bring in this morning. but I will not proceed with the third reading If he has, I shall have to oppose that, of the Bill. too. Amendment (Mr. Lee) agreed to. Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Clause 79, as amended, agreed to. Works and Housing) (4.31 a.m.): I really do not believe that this clause is as bad Clause SO-Board's power to compel dis­ as some members think it is. It is certainly closure- not my wish to have it that way. I have always believed that a person's home is Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (4.36 a.m.): I move his castle. Action taken will be on complaint the following amendment:- only, which makes the matter clear and "On page 31, line 42, omit the word­ precise. 'person' Mr. Moore: There could still be a tenant and insert the words- in the house. 'a party to a Building Contract'." Mr. LEE: Yes, there is no doubt about I think it is fair and reasonable that a that. So strongly do I feel about entry to party to a building contract should be com­ a house without a warrant that I shall pelled to disclose documents, but I think it not take the Bill immediately to the third is quite improper that any person other reading. Instead, I shall consider the matter than a party to the contract could find him­ and, if necessary, bring the Bill back later self in a situation where he could be com­ today for the third reading. I do not want pelled to disclose and furnish documents, anybody having the right to enter a person's documents which could perhaps belong to house and on that I feel very strongly. I his client. Under this clause there would be cannot be fairer than that. I have had advice a breach of the privilege that exists between from people who are expert in drafting Bills. a solicitor and his client. Not only would the After all, I am not the expert behind the party to a building contract be compelled to whole thing. disclose records, but so too would his lawyers and his agent. So I believe that the only Mr. Houston: That's obvious. people who could be compellable would be the parties themselves. To do otherwise Mr. LEE: I have to seek advice, and it's would lead to a situation which is quite a pity that the honourable member would contrary to the rules of privilege as they not do the same. If people cannot accept have existed for centuries so far as the advice, it is time they took a look at them­ lawyer and his client are concerned, so I selves in the mirror. believe for that reason the amendment should be accepted. I will not take the Bill right through to the third reading. My colleague the Minister for Survey and Valuation is to do exactly Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for what I am saying I could do; he will be Works and Housing) (4.37 a.m.): I feel that recommitting a Bill prior to the third the honourable member is worrying quite reading. I hope honourable members will unnecessarily about a lot of things. accept the assurance that I have given the Amendment (Mr. Lowes) negatived. Committee. Clause 80, as read, agreed to. Mr. GYGAR (Stafford) (4.34 a.m.): My Clause 81, as read, agreed to. interpretation of what the Minister has just said is that he will not proceed to the Clause 82-0bstruction of Board's inquiry, third reading this morning. He will enter etc.- into consultation with certain members in an endeavour to reach a mutually agreeable Mr. LOWES (Brisbane) (4.38 a.m.): I solution and, if he reaches such a solution, move the following amendment:- the Bill will again be brought forward. I have "On page 32, line 44, after the words never had any cause to regard the Minister 'against this Act' insert the words­ as other than a man of his word and I am therefore prepared to accept that course 'provided however that no person shall of action. However, I think the Minister be required to answer any question should understand that such are the feelings that may in the opinion of that person of certain members, including myself, that be likely to incriminate'." if no satisfactory conclusion can be reached Without those words, I submit there is an and he must proceed to the third reading, obligation on a person to incriminate himself we will be forced to divide the Committee. if he is required to answer a question, and I think it is only natural justice that that The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. should not be the case. Miller): Order! Is it the Minister's intention Amendment (Mr. Lowes) negatived. to proceed with the amendment before the Committee. Clause 82, as read, agreed to. House-builders' Reg'n, &c., Bill [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Surveyors Bill 2971

Clause 83-Procedural and evidentiary Clause 91-Securing property to Board­ matters affecting Board's hearings and other Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for proceedings- Works and Housing): I move the following amendment:- Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing): I move the following "On page 35, line 36, after the words amendment:- 'Registration Board' insert the words- 'of Queensland'.'' "On page 33, after line 28, insert the following words:- Amendment agreed to. '(4) A certificate purporting to be Clause 91, as amended, agreed to. under the hand of the Registrar to the Clauses 92 to 96, both inclusive, as read, effect that the Board has not received agreed to. a notice required to be given under section 48 (1) or 58 (1), (2) or (3) shall Clause 97-Prescribed enactments inapplic­ be admissible in all proceedings as able to dealings under this Part- evidence and, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, conclusive evidence of Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for the matters contained therein.' " Works and Housing): I move the following amendment:- Amendment agreed to. "On page 37, line 30, omit the Clause 83, as amended, agreed to. expression- '(!)'.'' Clauses 84 to 87, both inclusive, as read, agreed to. Amendment agreed to. Clause SS-Cessation of application of Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Builders' Registration Act- Works and Housing) (4.44 a.m.): I move the following further amendment:- Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for "On page 37, omit all words comprising Works and Housing): I move the following lines 39 to 41, both inclusive." amendment:- Mr. Houston: Why are you doing that? "On page 35, omit all words comprising lines 8 and 9 and insert in lieu thereof Mr. LEE: To deal with gift duty. We the following words:- have eliminated gift duty in this State. '(b) to have ceased to apply in respecl Amendment (Mr. Lee) agreed to. of building construction or in respect Clause 97, as amended, agreed to. of building work in relation to dwelling­ houses save such construction or work Clauses 98 to 102, both inclusive, as read, that was commenced before the com­ agreed to. mencement of this Part; and'.'' Bill reported, with amendments. Amendment agreed to. SURVEYORS BILL

Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for RECOMMITTAL Works and Housing): I move the following further amendment:- (The Acting Chairman of Committee5, Mr. "On page 35, line 12, omit the words­ Gunn, Somerset, in the chair) 'pertains to a matter dealt with' Order for third reading discharged and and insert in lieu thereof the words- Bill recommitted for the purpose of recon­ sidering clause 68-Interference with survey 'is provided for'.'' marks- Amendment agreed to. Hon. J. W. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove-­ Clause 88, as amended, agreed to. Minister for Survey and Valuation) (4.46 Clause 89, as read, agreed to. a.m.): At present, clause 68 (7) provides­ "No person, other than a surveyor, shall Clause 90-Parity of contract deemed- reinstate or attempt to reinstate a survey mark which has been interfered with." Hon. N. E. LEE (Yeronga-Minister for Works and Housing): I move the following In that clause, "surveyor" means registered amendment:- surveyor. Yet "survey mark" has a very wide definition and would include marks that "On page 35, line 29, omit the word­ were put in by people who are not registered 'Parity' surveyors. and insert in lieu thereof the word­ It seems that if the clause was left as it is 'Privity'.'' the following problem could arise:- Amendment agreed to. An engineering surveyor, that is, a man who is not a registered surveyor, could put Clause 90, as amended, agreed to. in one of his pegs, for example, marking the 2972 Valuation of Land Act [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill centre of a proposed roadway and then a more flexible powers, subject to my approval, roller or a bulldozer oould accidentally in relation to delegating authorities to his knock it out or displace it in the following senior officers. The proposal is to amend week. Yet the engineering surveyor could subsection (1) of section 9. Paragraph (vii) not replace it because under the clause at of subsection (1) of section 11 is another present only a registered surveyor is allowed section proposed to be amended. The Valuer­ to replace it. General when considering potential is to The amendment that I shall be moving regard land which is already surveyed into overcomes the problem. Regulations will be more than one lot as one lot only. made authorising various types of surveyors, registered or unregis,tered, to replace certa:n The other section affected is 20 sub­ types of survey marks. section (3). Th.is deals with the period within I therefore move the following amend­ which the Valuer-General must give notice ment:- of his decision to the owner on an objection. "On page 21, omit all words comprising In respect of notices of decision on interim 1ines 16 and 17 and insert in lieu thereof or split valuations the proposal is now to the foilowing words:- amend the Act in such a way that the Valuer-General is required to give his notice '(7) A person, other than a surveyor, of decision to the owner within six months shall not reinstate or attempt to rein~tate from the date of issue shown on the notice a survey mark that has been interfered of valuation. with unless he is a member of a cla~s specified in subsection (2) (b) of section Honourable members will recall that I 47 authorized by the regulations to mentioned the Valuer-General has about reinstate a survey mark of the same 800,000 parcels of land on his valuation description as the survey mark that has rolls which must be valued at periodic been interfered with.'" intervals. The amendments that I propose Mr. K. J. HOOPER (AJCcherfield) (4.47 have as their aim features which will assist a.m.): The only point on which I would take the Valuer-General in performing this task. issue with the Minister is that this Bill was introduced in great haste and, like everything I would like to refer to some matters that is done in haste, has caused problems. raised by honourable members at the intro­ The Minister is recognised as being a legal ductory stage. I refer first to some of the eagle in this House, yet he has to amend his problems that confront elderly people and own Bill. pensioners. Under subsection (4) of section 27 of the Local Government Act a local Mr. Houston: Would you say he is authority council may remit or compound incompetent? rates in respect of pensioners. The power is there and some councils have exercised it. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: No, I wouldn't say that at all; I am charitable. The Minister for Local Government and The amendment put forward by the Main Roads and I are involved in a general Minist~r is technical in nature and the review of the Local Government Act and Opposition has no objection to it. the Valuation of Land Act. Problems of elderly and retired members of the com­ Amendment (Mr. Greenwood) agreed to. munity have a top priority. However, as I Ch~1se 68. 2s amended, agreed to. have said, this is a problem which must be solved in conjunction with local aul'horities. Bill reported, with a further amendment. One problem faced by many elderly people can be solved within the four corners of this THIRD READING Act. It can be solved now. I refer to those people who, in order to supplement their Bill, on motion of Mr. Greenwood, by pensions, have converted part of their houses leave, read a third time. into a flat or have let a furnished room. As the law now stands the owner of a house in residential B zone who converts part of his VALUATION OF LAND ACT house into a flat would be ruined by rates. AMENDMENT BILL Instead of a valuation of, say, $6,000, his land might be valued at $30,000, on the same SECOND READING basis as a site for, say, 20 home units. What is the result? Many large houses in the Hon. J. W. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove­ residential B zone that would be suitable· Minister for Survey and Valuation) (4.50 for division into a house and small flat have a.m.): I move- not been converted. Those that have been "That the Bill be now read a second converted present their owners with insur­ time." mountable rate problems. During the introductory stage of the Bill I mentioned that it was proposed to amend The honourable member for Salisbury has three sections of the Valuation of Land Act. circulated an amendment which will solve Honourable members will recall that one of the problem. At this stage I would Hke to the proposals was to give the Valuer-General pay a tribute to her as a very hard-working Valuation of Land Act [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill 2973

member of my committee. The contribution Mr. Casey: What's he been doing for his which all members of my committee have money? made is invaluable. Mr. K . .J. HOOPER: He has been doing Another proposal in the Bill which I have very little, apparently. already mentioned relates to a householder Mr. Casey: Perhaps he may be able to who has bought two allotments or more take more briefs. and finds that he is paying double rates even though he obtains only one set of services Mr. K • .J. HOOPER: I am not coming into for his family. Under the proposed amend­ that one. That has already been dealt with. ment the land owned by such a person will It is apparent, though, that there is no be valued as one large parcel. great need for a separate ministry on Survey Amendments to the Act usually take effect and Valuation. Indeed, it is superfluous. In on the next area valuation. There are any responsible Government, this ministry enormous administrative difficulties back­ would be attached to the Justice portfolio. tracking over valuations that have been made In a long, rambling summary the Minister already. However, in this case, I believe showed his complete ignorance of the port­ that it is desirable to implement them as folio by bucketing the Opposition. I hope that soon as possible, even at some considerable the Minister's knowledge of land valuation is cost, inconvenience and disruption within the better than his knowledge of law. Under the department. The Valuer-General has been iniquitous system of valuation that has existed able to devise a method of applying most of in Queensland since the horse and buggy days, these reforms to most of Queensland fairly properties are assessed according to their quickly, and I propose to introduce an unimproved value rather than according to amendment in the Committee stage to allow land usage. This means that, regardless of people who believe that they are entitled to the purpose for which land is bought, rate­ a reduction in valuation as a result of the payers in areas that have just been subdivided reforms being brought in by this amending are facing an increased slug in rates. It is a Bill to write to the Valuer-General before well-accepted principle of local government 31 May. -even the best-run local government; not just those run by the trainee politicians of Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (4.56 the National Party such as Councillor Bob a.m.): It is quite obvious that this Bill has Sparkes of the Wambo Shire-- been designed to make simple machinery amendments to provide for a clearer inter­ M~. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! Would pretation of certain ambiguous sections exist­ the honourable gentleman be kind enough to ing in the Valuation of Land Act. As I tell me which part of the Bill he is directing mentioned at the introductory stage, members his comments to? of the Opposition welcome its introduction. However, it was crystal clear that the Min­ Mr. K . .J. HOOPER: The first part, Mr. ister did not have a clue about the contents Acting Speaker, but I hope you will bear of the Bill when he introduced it. He gave with me. the impression of not knowing what was involved in the Bill, which was introduced Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! I always in great haste. rigidly apply the mles of second-reading debate. The honourable member wiU keep to Mrs. Kyburz: Garbage! the principles of the Bill. Mr. K . .J. HOOPER: I do not want to take Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I will, Mr. Acting an interjection from the honourable member Speaker, but I think you will agree-and the for Salisbury. She is rather a nice person and House certainly would-that when the valu­ I do not want to be nasty to her, particu­ ations are increased in a lot of local shires larly in the morning when I know she is the increases are passed on to the ratepayers, tired. I do not want to upset her at this and the shire usually blames the Valuer­ hour of the day. General. I said at the introductory stage that the Mr. Frawley: Yes, that's right. Caboolture Bill was introduced in great haste. The Min­ does that, and one of your mates is the ister gave notice of the Bill at 11 o'clock chairman. and then introduced it the same afternoon. Mr. K • .J. HOOPER: I do not know who When I chided the Minister for this, all I is the chairman of the Caboolture Shire. got was a bucket from the Minister in his summing-up. It really hurt my feelings. The valuing system, as it is presently con­ stituted in Queensland, encourages rip-offs Mr. Marginson: Did he do that to you? and creates hardships. For example, when the Valuer-General brought out the revalu­ Mr. K • .J. HOOPER: He did. He upset me, ations for Brisbane under the horse and buggy too. However, it was the Minister's first Bill, rules applied by this Government, pensioners so I suppose we can bear with him a little. who had owned homes in the inner-city areas l might add that it is the first Bill he has for many years wer~ forced into financial introduced since he was appointed to Cabinet difficulties if their homes happened to be in August 1976. within cooee of high-rise land development. 2974 Valuation ofLand Act [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill

Mrs. Kyburz: We are fixing that. This is real Liberal Party thinking and philosophy. A classic case of this has been Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I sincerely hope so. drawn to my attention by a pensioner in I think the honourable member would agree the Redland Shire. He is Mr. Harold with me that some landlords have been taking Pateman, of Beveridge Street, Pinkland. .fie advantage of the new valuations in areas has sent his rate notices and notice of valu­ mentioned by the Minister in answer to a ation to me. His 1968 valuation was $490. question from me last week. His 1977 valuation is $22,800. I have those Mr. Marginson: You speak with great documents with me. This is a shocking authority. situation for a person to be placed in at his time of life. It is cas,es of this sort that Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I thank the honour­ the Minister should be looking at, if he is able member very much. administering his portfolio correctly. He should not be worrying about the rich As I have told the House on previous factory friends of the honourable member occasions, landlords use the valuations to for Merthyr in both Merthyr and Teneriffe. increase rents out of all proportion. Instead He should be having a good hard look at of adding only the proportion of the rate the valuations in some of the near-Brisbane rise to the weekly rent on each flat in a block, they add a handsome profit as well. shires controlled by so-called Independents If you can bear with me, Mr. Acting Speaker, who are in fact National Party members or I will relate to you what does take place. stooges. Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! I have Motion (Mr. Greenwood} agreed to. no intention of bearing with the honourable member at alL He will please come back COMMITTEE to the Bill. (The Acting Chairman of Committees, Mr. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: In his summary, Gunn, Somerset, in the chair) the Minister mentioned ,(he speech oC the honourable member for Merthyr. He said Clauses 1 and 2, as read, agreed to. one of the most important points in the Clause 3-Amendment of s. 11; Valuer­ debate was made by the honourable General to make valuation- member, who spoke on the effect of the new Brisbane Town Plan on the value of many Mrs. KYBURZ (Salisbury) (5.4 a.m.): I propert:es in Brisbane. move the following amendment:- Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! I ask "On page 1, insert after line 21 the the honourable gentleman for the last time following:- to come back to the provisions of the Bill, '( c) omitting the expression "; and" or I shall be forced to ask him to resume occurring at the end of the meaning of his seat. the term "a single dwe,hling-house" and Mr. K. J. HOOPER: In the introductory substituting the words- debate the Minister was asked about a re­ "or a dwelling occupied by the resi­ valuation of properties. The most ominous dent owner- feature of the Minister's remarks in his intro­ (a) part of which stands converted ductory speech was his stated intention to for use as a flat; or recommend to Cabinet that legislation be (b) a furnished room of which is introduced to provide for a revaluation of used or for use, Greater Brisbane if the new Town Plan became law. A plaintive plea was made on for habitation and renting by a person behalf of the wealthy commercial interests or persons other than the owner's and real estate developers who support this family; and"'." Government financially. I am becoming This amendment is moved on compassionate increasingly concerned at the number of real grounds. As all honourable members know, estate agents and land developers who are there are many elderly people who could entering this House for the Liberal and come under the classification of pensioners, National Parties. I notice a goodly pro­ elderly or even deserted persons who have portion of the announced Liberal candidates lived in their homes probably for several for the next State elections are real estate years and are in straitened financial circum­ agents. The last local government elections stances. The honourable member for brought them out in droves. The Liberal Archerfield mentioned people like these and aldermen on the Brisbane City Council are I am sure that we are all very concerned a case in point. These people wish to be about them. To make ends meet-that is, allowed to develop and build as they please to pay council rates-these people either without consideration for the welfare of the have had their homes converted into two city as a whole. The only consideration is flats, one of which they continue to occupy their hip-pocket nerve. or have rented a furnished room to a student or lodger. This Parliament should, Mrs. Kyburz: What about Clem Jones? I believe, offer them some relief. Mr. K . .J. HOOPER: He has probably That is my reason for moving the amend­ done more for Brisbane than anybody else. ment. Valuation of Land Act [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill 2975

I urge this as I understand that the Land part into a fiat or a furnished room for rent­ Court has on at least two occasions con­ ing. Secondly, the owner must reside on the firmed the Valuer-General's interpretation of premises in one of the fiats or the main area the subsisting paragraph (vii) of subsection (1) of the dwelling. That is an extremely import­ of section 11 which is now under review ant point and one that could be misinter­ before this Committee. A summary of these preted by absentee landlords. Thirdly, to decisions will be of interest to honourable overcome the problem of temporary vacan­ members. They are- cies or absence I have used the words "or Case No. 1-1,619 square metres of land for use". I think this creates a reasonable zoned residential B situated at Wooloowin, intention of what is desirable. developed with an old family home, one­ The amendment will, I believe, look after third of which has been converted into a the type of person whom I envisage. For small self-contained flat. Valued by example, consider the old lady over 70 years Valuer-General at the same rate as multi­ of age who has neither the financial unit development sites. resources nor the facility for decision-making Of course, the people there just could not to sell the present home and seek another afford to pay the rates. The Land Court dwelling or a fiat elsewhere. It is humane, I decision was that section 11 (1) (vii) does contend, that she be allowed to continue to not apply as it is not being used as a single reside amongst her life-long friends in a dwelling-house; the Valuer-General correctly familiar environment where she knows the valued at the highest and best use for a transport and other services available. multi-unit site. The Valuer-General's value With the qualifications that I have set out, of $28,800 was affirmed. I believe that this legislation will give con­ Case No. 2-1,153 square metres of siderable relief to the people mentioned and land zoned residential B situated at Yer­ will not add significantly to the burden of onga, developed with wood-and-iron dwell­ other more fortunate ratepayers. In fact, the ing divided into two self-contained flats. amendment will be particularly beneficial to The decision of the Land Court was that the many widows in the community. I com­ section 11 (1) (vii) does not apply. Irrespect­ mend the amendment to the Committee. I ive of the number of units actually built on trust that the Minister will be prepared to the land, if it is not used as a single dwelling­ accept it-in fact, I know he is. house it must be valued at a price that a purchaser buying for unit development would Hon. J. W. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove­ be prepared to pay. Minister for Survey and Valuation) (5.10 a.m.): I accept the amendment and repeat Situations such as I have cited must exist my thanks to the honourable member. in all electorates. They certainly do in mine, and they will be found particularly in the Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (5.11 older inner-city electorates. These people a.m.): After listening to the honourable mem­ need help and should not be disadvantaged ber for Salisbury it is a shame that in by what seems to me an inordinately harsh political terms she is known as a "oncer" rule of law. I am quite sure that in places because I do feel, and I say this quite such as the Gold Coast, the Sunshine Coast sincerely, that she is possibly the smallest and older resorts like Y eppoon there are "1" Liberal on the Government side. many examples of such situations. Mr. Frawley: You were touched by her I ask the Committee not to interpret my appeal. remarks as a reflection on the court or the Valuer-General and his staff, who, by the Mr. K. J. HOOPER: Yes, but at the same way, have, I think, performed a sterling time the amendment she moved is a good task in sitting here till 5 o'clock in the morn­ one, and the Opposition will support it. We ing. I hope they are being paid overtime think it goes a long way towards humanising because it is ridiculous that a House of Par­ the Valuation Act, but for the life of me I liament should sit this late. However, they cannot understand why the Minister with all are performing the functions which this his legal knowledge could not have thought Legislature expects of them and they have of it himself when the Bill was first drafted. been doing so under Bills passed in the The honourable member for Salisbury got House. this idea from my speech during the intro­ I must say at this point that I commend the ductory debate. No doubt she pirated some honourable member for Brisbane, even of my remarks and came up with this idea, though it has nothing to do with my amend­ but nevertheless I do not mind. As long as ment, because he is in fact doing what the people of Queensland get the benefit of legislators should do-picking Bills to pieces. my suggestions, it does not matter a great If there were more of it, there would not be deal where the amendment came from. In as many stupid pieces of legislation as there conclusion, the Opposition welcomes the are now in Queensland. amendment and supports it wholeheartedly. I hasten to point out that there are many Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (5.12 a.m.): necessary and desirable qualifications to my I support the amendment also and commend amendment. Firstly, it must be a building the honourable member for Salisbury on initially erected for a single family use and bringing it forward. She has obviously done which has been subsequently converted in her homework on it. But there are a couple 2976 Valuation of Land Act [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill of points that need to be clarified because The amendment is very commendable, and the latter part of her amendment, part (b), it will be of assistance to people who find states- themselves in such a situation. "a furnished room of which is used or Amendment (Mrs. Kyburz) agreed to. for use, for habitation and renting by a person or persons... " Mr. SIMPSON (Cooroora) (5.16 a.m.): move the following amendment:- It seems to me that if the resident owner can use only one room then there is no real "On page 1, after line 21, insert the problem, but if this allows the owner to be following:- renting four or five rooms in the one house '( d) inserting at the end of the mean­ then I see some difficulties. It then becomes ing of the term "the business of primary a rooming house. In her speech the honour­ production" the words ", means pro­ able member referred to students or other duction resulting directly from- persons-- (i) the cuJ,tivation of land; Mrs. Kyburz: One. (ii) the maintenance of animals or poultry for the purpose of selling Mr. WRIGHT: That is not what it says. them or their bodily produce, includ­ The honourable member is talking about one ing natural increase; person but the amendment does not state (iii) fishing operations; or that. It r.efers to a person or persons so I (iv) forest operations, can see difficulties again. Are we going to and includes the manufacture of dairv have three people to one room or three produce by the person who produced people in three rooms? I think there needs the raw material used in that manu­ to be some clarification of that point. facture; Hon. J. W. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove­ 'Business' includes any profession, trade, Minister for Survey and Valuation) (5.13 employment, vocation or calling."'" a.m.): It is one room or one flat. Whether Section 11 is the most contentious section in that flat there is a single person or a of the Valuation of Land Act and the one married couple it does not really matter. that valuers have most difficulty in inter­ Mr. Wright: So you are stipulating the preting. Courts have given all sorts of inter­ one flat? pretations to it, which, in turn, the valuers must follow. It could be said that the Mr. GREENWOOD: The one flat or the responsibility must finally come back to one room. the legislators. If that is true, an amendment such as the one I have now moved is needed Mr. SIMPSON (Cooroora) (5.14 a.m.): I to clarify the position. The wording is the rise to support the amendment moved by same as the wording of the Taxation Act, the honourable member for Salisbury. In which gives a definition of a primary spite of the late hour this is an important producer. piece orf legislation that is being amended. A The purpose of the section is to 1protect Jot of people in my electorate are adversely primary producers in areas in which develop­ affected by the rising value of properties ment is encroaching on their properties. For which is reflected in the high valuations. example, in recent valuations in the Mr. Houston: They are in a lot of areas. Maroochy and Noosa Shires, valuers have been interpreting decisions of courts and Mr. SIMPSON: That is correct. One of creating anomalous situations that the the v. ays people can try to provide a hedge legislators certainly did not evisage in 1971. against inflation in their old age is to take in People may be on a grazing property the lodgers or to attach a fiat to their dwelling. use of which has not changed for 30 years. It is the honest people who tell the valuer At the time of the valuation, the valuer just what they are doing. The dishonest ones finds that there are no stock on the property. do not, and so the valuer does not know That has been so in the past, too, but on what has happened and places a lower other occasions stock were there when the valuation on that property. In the past a valuer made his valuation. He then considers valuer could not treat such a dwelling as that it should not be valued for primary a single dwelling and compare it with sales production and gives it a higher valuation of comparable single dwellings. With this for a different use. He interprets the Act amendment the Minister has assured us that in such a way that he may revalue it when valuers will look at the valuations of other it again has stock on it. Honourable mem­ single dweilings for the purpose of valuing bers are all aware of the situation in which a home which has a fiat attached. This is beef producers find themselves at the important. It means that in suburbs which moment, and it is more prudent to have no combine residential A and B zones the stock on a property that is running at a loss. valuer must go to another area which con­ Another situation arises from valuers tains only residential A dwellings and get interpreting section 11. If a person is in the his valuations from that area, and then process of planting an orchard and it has transfer the valuation in order to reach a not yet come into production, they have fair valuation for the dwelling which has a considered that that is not primary pro­ flat attached to it. That is a big breakthrough. duction and have said that they will come VaLuation of Land Act [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill 2977

and revalue it when ,the trees come into pro­ Mr. SIMPSON: If a developer buys a duction. As honourable members are aware, property of 1,000 acres that he is not farm­ that could take anything up to eight years, ing legitimately, and at the same time has a depending on the varieties of trees that history of being a developer, under the cri­ have been planted. teria in this amendment, which is worded in In considering land being used solely for the same way as a definition tested by the the purpose of primary production, the High Court for taxation purposes, he would courts have given the word "exclusively" not be eligible for a low valuation and the two different meanings. On the one hand, property would be valued appropriately. At "exclusively" means that the owners of the the moment his valuation is lower than rthat of property must be fully engaged in the pur­ a legitimate farmer who is in jeopardy. The pose of producing on their land and must valuation provisions work in reverse. not have some other interest or some other Mr. FRAWLEY (Murrumba) (5.26 a.m.): job. On the other hand, according to I support the amendment moved by the hon­ another interpretation every single part of ourable member for Cooroora because it is that property must be in production. about time common sense was brought into We all know that some people maintain valuations in Queensland. Ever since becoming a belt of trees to protect their land from a member of Parliament I have had problems wind or frost. That is a legitimate use of in the Shire of Caboolture, most of which their property. We know, too, that the have been political. Most of the 1971 valua­ potential of a property can lie in its use tions in Caboolture were carried out by for the rotation of crops. Yet these things valuers who parked their car at the end of are not being considered. a street and did not know what they were talking about. I have had more trouble with The court has given interpretations to the incompetent valuers in this shire than any effect that, where a property has on it other honourable member has had in his irrigation equipment, tractors, farming equip­ area. Fortunately, the former Minister in ment and so on, because those items were charge of valuation (Mr. Lickiss) went a long saleable they were no evidence of the fact way to remove some of the anomalies in that the property was used for primary the Caboolture Shire. A.P.M. won every production. What is considered to be appeal lodged against valuation. That proved legitimate primary production is being valued something was wrong. at higher than normal. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: The honour­ Often comments are made to the effect able member will return to the amendment. that the shires must get revenue. The pro­ perties in question were previously valued as Mr. FRAWLEY: I am speaking to the rural properties or primary producing pro­ amendment, Mr. Gunn. I support it because perties, and under the new valuations their I think it is worthwhile and should be values have increased by from 10 to 1,000 considered seriously. times. I can speak about my electorate with Some members may not realise that in authority because I am familiar with it, the Maroochy and Noosa Shires as well although, unlike some honourable members, as in other shires near the coast some very I do not have an area of only two or three small areas are viable-not that viability is square miles that I can walk around betwee::n the criterion in the Act or the amendment. morning tea and lunch-time. On many dairy For example, 10 acres of bananas, 10 acres farms and other primary-producing properties of avocados or 10 acres of macadamia nuts, that are not viable, either the husband or or 3 acres of strawberries, are viable areas. wife has to go to work. Because the pro­ In grazing and beef production, there is the perties are not used solely for primary pro­ absurd situation at present that the more duction, they are valued at a higher rate. acres the grazier has, the bigger his mortgage When they are close to towns like Woodford, will be. A man could have one animal, a Caboolture, Wamuran or Dayboro, with bull standing at AI., yet he could still be adjoining developed properties, a wrong elegible as a primary producer. valuation is placed on them. I know that the Act provides that they should not be It can be shown that this amendment valued according to potential if they are used provides a very practical way of meeting for primary production, but that has hap­ the situation. The need for the amendment pened. is obvious. It will overcome the anomaly under which legitimate farmers are being An Opposition Member: Why don't you valued off their properties. That is what is wind it up? taking place now. Mr. FRAWLEY: The honourable member There is also the anomaly that a big can go to hell. He had his turn while I sat developer with 1,000 acres next to a town here all night. I am now exercising my is given a valuation and is eligible for rights as a member of this Parliament. the lower rate given to a primary producer. Mr. Marginson: You have been asleep all Under the amendment he will not be night. eligible. Mr. FRAWLEY: I have not been asleep Mr. Gibbs: Why shouldn't he, if he is all night. At least I did not get put off a farming it legitimately? hospital board. 96 2978 Valuation of Land Act [5 & 6 APRIL 1977] Amendment Bill

The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The Mr. SIMPSON: Yes, I will. honourable member will return to the amend­ In relation to fishing operations, the Min­ ment. ister is apparently not aware of the fish-farm­ Mr. FRAWLEY: I am doing the best I ing that takes place on the ,]and, as opposed can, Mr. Gunn, but I am being side-tracked to those fishing activities occurring off the by Opposition members who are terrified shoreline. Forestry and the others are directly about what I might expose relative to some pertinent. Poultry-farming is also pertinent­ of the rackets they have been involved in. and recognised by the Minister's department. An Opposition Member: You are criticising In reply to the member for Rockhampton, the Bill? as to the tax dodges as he calls them-- Mr. Wright: Tax loopholes. Mr. FRAWLEY: I am entitled to criticise it because I do not like it. Mr. SIMPSON: It is not a tax loophole. Mr. Marginson: You will vote against it? This is one that the Taxation Department tests quite often in the High Court. A person Mr. FRAWLEY: I will do what I want to has to be a bona fide primary producer. What do. At least I am not dictated to by the the honourable member will say is that they Q.C.E. I vote as I want to. may in fact be on a very small area. That is I am not espousing the cause of any real true. They may be. However, what he should estate developers, most of whom are thieves bear in mind is the very few who may be and robbers. I am opposed to their buying running very close to the wind as tax dodgers a big property and running a few head of under what he calls this anomaly as com­ cattle to get a low valuation. I urge the pared with the large number of legitimate Minister to take this amendment seriously, farmers who are being disadvantaged. If the although I do not believe he will give any rules that are being applied in the Nambour thought to it. area at the moment were applied throughout QueenslanJ, nut 2 per ceni of farmers would Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (5.29 a.m.): be eligible. That will give an indication of The submissions made by the honourable how serious it has become. Anyone who has member for Cooroora have some merit, but I an interest in any other property in fact think we should get some more explanatory becomes ineligible under the exclusive term information from him. If the new definition that is used. he has submitted is tied to the taxation The Minister assured me in another place definition, are we not opening up a loophole? that a direction would be made so that The criticism I have heard about the taxation valuers did not take into account that a definition is that it allows Queen Street farm­ person had another job. However, as I look ers to become primary producers as a tax at it, unless the provision is in the Bill the dodge. If we make another loophole, some Minister cannot direct valuers on what they primary producers will become rate dodgers. should or should not do. They operate under That question must be answered before the the Act itself. Opposition considers the amendment further. The Premier has assured me that if in fact Hon. J. W. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove­ we do not have a return to what we consider Minister for Survey and Valuation) (5.30 to be the spirit of the Act as amended in a.m.): I cannot accept this amendment. I 1971 under which legitimate farmers in the have looked at it very, very closely. For face 'of development do in fact have the right about half a dozen reasons, I do not think to produce in an area and not be valued off that it is nearly as good as the definition that their properties-and do in fact have an we presently have in the Bill. I mention only opportunity to have their p~operties vall!ed the pasturage provision, the apiculture pro­ in line with comparable pnmary-producmg vision, and the forestry and the poultry­ land-this Bill will come back for amend­ farming provisions, all of which are much ment in the August session. wider than the way the proposed amendment is framed. Mr. Marginson: Did the Premier tell you that? The only area in which the Commonwealth taxation definition is more comprehensive is Mr. SIMPSON: That is right. in respect of fishing operations. I assure honourable members that, since the Common­ Amendment (Mr. Simpson) negatived. wealth Government has deprived the Queens­ Clause 3, as amended, agreed to. land Government of its authority over the Clauses 4 and 5, as read, agreed to. continental shelf, the demands on the Valuer­ General for valuing land that could be Insertion of new clause- described as used for fishing operations has Hon. J. W. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove­ been comparatively slight. Minister for Survey and Valuation) (5.35 Mr. SIMPSON (Cooroora) (5.31 a.m.): I a.m.): I move the following amendment:­ know that we did not get half a dozen "On page 2, after line 25, insert the reasons, but I am afraid that the ones put following new clause to follow clause 5:­ forward by the Minister did not really make '6. Retrospective effect of certain sense. amendments. (1) In addition to the pro­ Mr. Wright: Well, answer mine. visions of section 3 of this Act applying Valuation of Land Act, &c., Bill [6 APRIL 1977] Papers 2979

to amend section 11 (1) (vii) of the Mr. K. J. HOOPER (Archerfield) (5.36 Principal Act on and from the com­ a.m.): What the additional clause does IS to mencement of this Act, those provisions allow the people a retrospective right of apply to amend the said section 11 (1) appeal. It is certainly a lot fairer. (vii) in the circumstances and for the Mr. Houston: You would advocate it very purposes hereinafter in this section pro­ strongly? vided, and in that respect apply retro­ spectively accordingly. Mr. K. J. HOOPER: I advocate it very, (2) Where a valuation has been made very strongly, particularly at 5.36 o'clock in by the Valuer-General under the Prin­ the morning. We have no objection to it. cipal Act and- New clause 6, as read, agreed to. {a) it has come into force on 30 Long title- June 1976 or on any day thereafter up to the commencement of this Act; Hon. J. W. GREENWOOD (Ashgrove-­ or Minister for Survey and Valuation): I move (b) it comes or is to come into force the following amendment:- after such commencement, "Omit the words- and the owner of the land the subject of 'another purpose' the valuation desires that a review of and insert in lieu thereof the words- the valuation be made by the Valuer­ 'other purposes'." General having regard to the amend­ ments made to section 11 (1) (vii) of the Amendment agreed to. Principal Act by this Act, he may apply Long title, as amended, agreed to. in writing to the Valuer-General for such Bill reported, with amendments and an review on or before 31 May 1977 setting amended title. out the grounds upon which his appJi­ cation is based. THIRD READING (3) The Valuer-General shall with all Bill, on motion of Mr. Greenwood, by reasonable despatch consider the appli­ leave, read a third time. cation, and may determine either that The House adjourned at 5.39 a.m. (Wednes­ the valuation remain unchanged or that day). it be reduced to an amount considered by him to be appropriate in the circum­ stances. (4) Neither an objection nor an appeal under Part VI of the Principal Act lies against a determination by the Valuer­ General under subsection (3). (5) A valuation that is reduced by the Valuer-General pursuant to this section shall come into force on and from 30 June 1977 or on and from such later day as the valuation of the land in question comes or is to come into force in accordance with the provisions of the Principal Act. (6) The Valuer-General shall not make his determination with respect to an application under this section in any case where the owner has instituted an appeal under section 21 of the Principal Act or may still do so (having regard to the provisions of that section relating to time for institution of an appeal) until the appeal has been determined or the Valuer-General is satisfied that an appeal has not been instituted, as the case may be, but, subject thereto, the provisions of this section apply to the application and the determination thereon by the Valuer-General. (7) The determination by the Valuer­ General on an application shall be com­ municated in writing to the applicant'." This clause is the best that we can do to help as many people as possible in the appli­ cation of these new reforms. I outlined the reasons earlier.