Schweizer Grand Prix Kunst Prix Meret Oppenheim 2018 Grand Prix suisse d’art Gran Premio svizzero d’arte Grond premi svizzer d’art 4 Vorwort 5 Avant-propos 6 Prefazione 7 Foreword

8 Einleitung 10 Introduction 12 Introduzione 14 Introduction

16 Samuel Gross en conversation avec Sylvie Fleury 45 Samuel Gross in conversation with Sylvie Fleury

52 Yasmil Raymond in conversation with Thomas Hirschhorn 84 Yasmil Raymond im Gespräch mit Thomas Hirschhorn

94 Stefano Moor in conversazione con Luigi Snozzi 127 Stefano Moor in conversation with Luigi Snozzi

137 Anhang Annexe Appendice Appendix Vorwort Renommee und mit seinem intellektu- Avant-propos entre urbanisme et architecture dans ellen Format eine legendäre Figur der le village de Monte Carasso au Tessin Der Prix Meret Oppenheim wurde Architekturszene. Sein Projekt zwischen Le Prix Meret Oppenheim a été est toujours une fgure de référence, 2001 durch das Bundesamt für Städtebau und Architektur im Dorf créé en 2001 par l’Ofce fédéral de plusieurs décennies après sa mise en Kultur (BAK) in Zusammenarbeit Monte Carasso im Tessin dient auch la culture en collaboration avec la œuvre. La Commission a choisi de lui mit der Eidgenössischen Kunst- Jahrzehnte nach seiner Umsetzung noch Commission fédérale d’art. Il honore remettre le prix Meret Oppenheim pour kommission eingerichtet. Er würdigt als Referenz. Die Kommission zeichnet des artistes, architectes, commis- honorer son infuence sur les jeunes Kulturschafende aus den Bereichen ihn mit dem Prix Meret Oppenheim aus, saires, chercheurs et critiques qui font générations d’architectes. Kunst und Architektur, Kuratorinnen um seinen Einfuss auf die nachfolgen- rayonner la création suisse au-delà de Nous exprimons notre admiration et und Kuratoren sowie Kritikerinnen den Generationen von Architektinnen nos frontières et à travers les années. adressons nos sincères félicitations à la und Kritiker, die das Schweizer und Architekten zu würdigen. Pour sa 18e édition, qui marque son lauréate et aux lauréats et espérons que Kulturschafen über die Landes- Wir drücken der Preisträgerin und passage à l’âge adulte, le Grand Prix ces entretiens inédits sauront révéler la grenzen hinaus dauerhaft bekannt den Preisträgern unsere Bewunderung suisse d’art / Prix Meret Oppenheim genèse de leur création et de leur pen- machen. Mit seiner 18. Ausgabe aus und hofen, dass die hier erstmals est décerné à trois personnalités sée. L’OFC remercie les membres de la wird der Schweizer Grand Prix veröfentlichten Gespräche die Ent- accomplies de l’art et de l’architecture. Commission fédérale d’art pour leur fer Kunst / Prix Meret Oppenheim stehung ihrer Werke und ihres Denkens Suivant les recommandations de la engagement en faveur de la création sozusagen erwachsen. Er geht an beleuchten. Das BAK dankt den Commission fédérale d’art, l’OFC dis- artistique et architecturale contempo- drei bedeutende Persönlichkeiten Mitgliedern der Eidgenössischen tingue deux artistes : Sylvie Fleury et raine. Enfn, nous saluons notre héroïne aus Kunst und Architektur. Auf Kunstkommission für ihren unermüdli- Thomas Hirschhorn, auxquels s’ajoute en titre, Meret Oppenheim, qui marque – Empfehlung der Eidgenössischen chen Einsatz für das zeitgenössische l’architecte Luigi Snozzi. Les entretiens tant allégoriquement que littéralement – Kunstkommission zeichnet das BAK Kunst- und Architekturschafen. publiés dans cet ouvrage donnent un cet ouvrage de son empreinte. die beiden Kunstschafenden Sylvie Schliesslich möchten wir die Namens- aperçu des réfexions, des démarches Fleury und Thomas Hirschhorn sowie geberin des Preises würdigen, Meret et des expériences qui ont accompa- Léa Fluck den Architekten Luigi Snozzi aus. Oppenheim, von deren Werk diese gné la lauréate et les lauréats dans leur Création culturelle, responsable de Die in diesem Band veröfentlichten Ausgabe – sowohl wörtlich als auch im activité. Les interlocuteurs cette année l’encouragement de l’art Interviews bieten einen Überblick übertragenen Sinn – geprägt ist. sont : Samuel Gross, Yasmil Raymond über Denkweisen, Vorgehen und et Stefano Moor. Erfahrungen der Preisträgerin Léa Fluck Ce n’est efectivement pas un und der Preisträger. Die Gespräche Kulturschafen, Leitung Kunstförderung miracle si la Commission a choisi de der diesjährigen Ausgabe führten distinguer Sylvie Fleury, mais bien la Samuel Gross, Yasmil Raymond und preuve de la maturité d’une œuvre qui Stefano Moor. irrite. Dans un séduisant retournement Dass sich die Kommission dafür de situation, l’artiste s’est servie de entschieden hat, Sylvie Fleury auszu- l’industrie du luxe de la même façon zeichnen, ist kein Wunder , sondern que cette dernière s’était d’abord ins- zeugt von der Reife eines irritierenden pirée du monde de l’art. Yes to Sylvie Werks. In einer verführerischen Um- Fleury. L’autre Prix Meret Oppenheim kehrung der Situation hat sich die récompensant un travail artistique Künstlerin der Luxusindustrie bedient, a été attribué à Thomas Hirschhorn. die sich zuvor an der Kunstwelt inspiriert La carrière d’artiste de Hirschhorn a hatte. Yes to Sylvie Fleury . Ebenso débuté dans les années 1980 grâce geehrt für sein künstlerisches Werk à un heureux faux pas d’orientation wird Thomas Hirschhorn. Hirschhorns professionnelle. Tant mieux. Engagé, Karriere als Künstler begann in den dérangeant, incontrôlable, généreux 1980er-Jahren dank eines Umwegs in en mots, en matériaux, son travail der berufichen Laufbahn. Ein Glücks- artistique monumental repousse les fall. Sein monumentales Schafen ist limites ordinaires. Enfn, Luigi Snozzi, engagiert, unbequem, unkontrollierbar, architecte et professeur émérite de grosszügig mit Worten und Materialien renommée internationale, est, de und es verschiebt die üblichen Grenzen. par son envergure intellectuelle, une Luigi Snozzi ist Architekt sowie emeri- personnalité légendaire du monde de tierter Professor von internationalem l’architecture. Son projet à la croisée

4 5 Prefazione ca e architettura a Monte Carasso in Foreword tion. The commission awards him the Ticino continua a essere un modello Prix Meret Oppenheim in recognition Il Prix Meret Oppenheim, istituito nel di riferimento anche a decenni dalla The Prix Meret Oppenheim was of his infuence on the new generations 2001 dall’Ufcio federale della cultura sua realizzazione. La Commissione ha established in 2001 by the Swiss of architecture. in collaborazione con la Commissione scelto di premiare Luigi Snozzi per Federal Ofce of Culture (FOC) in We would like to express our admi- federale d’arte, rende onore ad artisti, onorare il suo infusso sulle nuove cooperation with the Swiss Federal ration to the awardees and hope the architetti, curatori, ricercatori e critici generazioni di architetti. Art Commission. It serves to honor conversations frst published here will che con le loro posizioni fanno risaltare Esprimiamo la nostra ammirazione artists and architects as well as adequately illuminate the genesis la creazione artistica svizzera negli anni e ci congratuliamo vivamente con curators and critics in the felds of of their work and thought. The FOC e al di là dei confni. i vincitori e la vincitrice nella speranza art and architecture who lastingly would like to thank the members Giunto alla 18a edizione, che segna che queste interviste inedite permettano heighten the international profle of of the Federal Art Commission for their il passaggio alla maggiore età, il Gran di cogliere la genesi del loro operato Swiss cultural production. With this dedication to contemporary artistic and Premio svizzero d’arte /Prix Meret e del loro pensiero. L’Ufcio federale eighteenth edition, the Swiss Grand architectural production. Lastly, we Oppenheim è assegnato a tre personali- della cultura ringrazia i membri della Art Award / Prix Meret Oppenheim want to acknowledge Meret Oppenheim, tà afermate dell’arte e dell’architettura. Commissione per il loro qualifcato is coming of age, as it were. It goes the artist after whom the award is named Ribadendo le raccomandazioni della impegno nei confronti dell’arte e to three eminent fgures in art and and whose work shapes this edition in Commissione, l’Ufcio federale della dell’architettura contemporanea. architecture. Upon recommendation of ways both literal and fgurative. cultura premia i due artisti Sylvie Fleury E, infne, acclamiamo la nostra eroina the Federal Art Commission, the FOC e Thomas Hirschhorn e l’architetto titolare Meret Oppenheim che segna, honors the two artists Sylvie Fleury Léa Fluck Luigi Snozzi. Le interviste pubblicate sia metaforicamente sia testualmente, and Thomas Hirschhorn as well as the Cultural Production, Head of Art nel presente volumetto forniscono quest’opera con la sua impronta. architect Luigi Snozzi. The interviews Promotion uno spaccato delle rifessioni, delle published in this volume outline the evoluzioni e delle esperienze che hanno Léa Fluck ways of thinking, the approaches, and accompagnato la vincitrice e i vincitori Produzione culturale, responsabile the experiences of the awardees. The durante la loro carriera. Gli intervista- Promozione artistica conversations in this year’s edition tori di quest’anno sono Samuel Gross, were conducted by Samuel Gross, Yasmil Raymond e Stefano Moor. Yasmil Raymond, and Stefano Moor. Che la Commissione abbia proposto The decision of the commission una distinzione per Sylvie Fleury non to honor Sylvie Fleury is not a miracle, è certo un miracolo, ma la prova che la as it stands testament to the maturity sua è un’opera matura e provocatoria. of an irritating oeuvre. In a seductive In un seducente rovesciamento di reversal, the artist has drawn on the situazioni, l’artista si è servita dell’indu- luxury industry which had previously stria del lusso nello stesso modo in cui drawn inspiration from the world quest’ultima si era inizialmente ispirata of art. Yes to Sylvie Fleury. Another al mondo dell’arte. Yes to Sylvie Fleury. Prix Meret Oppenheim for artistic L’altro Prix Meret Oppenheim che work goes to Thomas Hirschhorn. ricompensa un lavoro artistico è Hirschhorn’s artistic career began in assegnato a Thomas Hirschhorn, la the 1980s as the result of a fortunate cui carriera è iniziata negli anni Ottanta career detour. So much the better. His grazie a una svolta felice nel suo monumental work is committed, incon- orientamento professionale. Un vero venient, uncontrollable, generous colpo di fortuna. La sua produzione with words and materials, and pushes artistica monumentale è impegnata, conventional boundaries. Luigi Snozzi scomoda, incontrollabile, generosa is an architect and internationally di parole e materiali attraverso i quali renowned professor emeritus and, si spinge oltre i confni abituali. Luigi with his intellectual stature, a legend- Snozzi è architetto e professore emerito ary fgure in the architecture scene. di fama internazionale, che per la sua His project straddling urban planning levatura intellettuale è una fgura and architecture in the town of Monte leggendaria nel mondo dell’architettura. Carasso in Ticino still serves as a point Il suo progetto al crocevia tra urbanisti- of reference decades after its realiza-

6 7 Be Amazing – Be Better in erster Linie die Kriterien der künstle- Diskurs in einer radikalen und unver- rischen Qualität und der heutigen und gleichlichen Ästhetik umzusetzen. Es ist ein grosses Vergnügen, die zukünftigen Relevanz des Schafens von Ich bin wenige Kilometer von Monte Preisträgerin und die Preisträger Sylvie Fleury, Thomas Hirschhorn und Carasso entfernt aufgewachsen, des Schweizer Grand Prix Kunst / Luigi Snozzi. der Gemeinde, die dank den städtebau- Prix Meret Oppenheim vorstellen zu « Be Amazing » ist einer der Slogans, lichen Eingrifen von Luigi Snozzi dürfen: Sylvie Fleury, Thomas die uns in den Sinn kommen, wenn wir zum bedeutenden Vorbild für die Hirschhorn und Luigi Snozzi. Das an Sylvie Fleury denken. Die Genfer internationale Architekturszene wurde. Vergnügen mischt sich jedoch mit Künstlerin hat diesen Ausspruch mehr- Für mich als Tessiner ist es fast schon der Schwierigkeit, in wenigen Zeilen mals wiederholt: als Wandmalerei, in ergreifend, mich in den Strassen von die Arbeiten ihrer Karrieren und Neonschrift oder als einfache Gedenk- Monte Carasso zu bewegen und fest- die riesige Bedeutung ihres weltweiten tafel. Fleury schaft es wie sonst kaum zustellen, dass eine Vereinigung von Einfusses zusammenzufassen. jemand, mit grösster Leichtigkeit Moderne und Tradition, von lokaler Diese drei Schweizer Kultur- und Einfachheit die Diskrepanz aufzu- Verankerung und Avantgarde hier nicht schafenden können als ideale Zeugen zeigen zwischen Realität und Wunsch, nur ein theoretisches Konstrukt ist, unserer Zeit betrachtet werden. Das zwischen Projektion der Werbung und sondern möglich und real. seit der letzten Ausgabe des Preises Grenzen der Existenz. Die Künstlerin Es bleibt uns, Sylvie Fleury, Thomas vergangene Jahr war geprägt durch verbindet den feministischen Diskurs Hirschhorn und Luigi Snozzi zu danken wichtige und dringliche Diskussionen mit der Ästhetik des Pop und mit für ihr grosses Engagement in der von grundlegender Bedeutung einer beissenden Ironie. Dies macht Entwicklung und Umsetzung ihrer für die Zivilgesellschaft, die auch die Sylvie Fleurys Schafen im aktuellen Werke, deren Potential noch lange nicht Kulturszene beeinfusst haben. Es Kontext besonders wichtig, da es ausgeschöpft ist. Es ist eine grosse waren intensive Debatten über die auch in einer Welt besteht, die von der Ehre, diesen Persönlichkeiten den Gleichberechtigung der Geschlechter, Aufmerksamkeitsökonomie besessen ist. Schweizer Grand Prix Kunst / Prix Meret über die Bedeutung der Ausbildung, Wer Thomas Hirschhorn persönlich Oppenheim zu verleihen. Vor allem über Diskriminierungen, die zu Gewalt und durch seine immersiven Werke ken- aber ist es ein grosses Vergnügen, ihr führen, über die Ungleichheiten nenlernen durfte, wird bestätigen, dass Schafen mitzuerleben, dank dem wir zwischen den Regionen der Welt, das Adjektiv amazing genau auf ihn uns Fragen stellen, die uns zu einer zwischen Männern und Frauen sowie zutrift. Die Dringlichkeit und Energie Auseinandersetzung mit der Realität in anderen Bereichen der Gesellschaft. des Künstlers und seiner Installationen zwingen und uns zu Verbesserungen Auf der Suche nach Gründen befassten sind einzigartig und zeugen von einem anregen. sich die Diskussionen mit der wirt- tiefen und entschlossenen Bedürfnis, schaftlichen Ungerechtigkeit, die eher die Umwelt mitzugestalten und von Giovanni Carmine zu- als abnimmt. Heftig diskutiert wurde der Überzeugung, dass eine kritische Präsident der Eidgenössischen über die Konfikte zwischen öfentlichen Auseinandersetzung mit der Gegenwart Kunstkommission Institutionen und privaten wirtschaftli- der Antrieb des Fortschritts ist. chen Interessen. Abgeschlossen sind Hirschhorn stellt die Worte bewusst ins diese Diskussionen natürlich noch Zentrum seines Schafens und ist ein lange nicht, aber wir befnden uns in unermüdlicher Vermittler und ein her- einer Phase der Neuorientierung des vorragender Botschafter der tragenden ethischen Systems und damit auch Rolle, welche die Kunst im öfentlichen der Art und Weise des Austauschs und Diskurs annehmen kann – und muss. der Beziehungen von Individuen und Auch Luigi Snozzi hat Auseinander- Gesellschaft. setzungen nie gefürchtet. Er war sich Der Schweizer Grand Prix Kunst / bewusst, dass die Architektur einen Prix Meret Oppenheim 2018 zeichnet direkten Einfuss von grosser Wichtig- drei Persönlichkeiten aus, die diese keit auf den Alltag und somit auf die Themen präzise und unverfälscht Gesellschaft hat. Die Aussergewöhn- betrachten. Die Auswahl der Eidge- lichkeit des Tessiner Architekten drückt nössischen Kunstkommission sich allerdings nicht nur durch die erfolgte jedoch nicht aufgrund dieser Präzision seiner Gedanken aus, sondern Diskussionen. Berücksichtigt wurden vor allem in der Fähigkeit, diesen

8 9 Be Amazing – Be Better Luigi Snozzi ont aujourd’hui et auront dans sa capacité à mettre en accord encore pour les générations à venir. ce discours avec une esthétique C’est un véritable plaisir de présenter « Be Amazing » est un des slogans radicale et qui lui est très personnelle. la lauréate et les lauréats de l’édition qui retentit dans nos têtes quand nous L’auteur de ces lignes a grandi à 2018 du Grand Prix suisse d’art / pensons à Sylvie Fleury, un slogan quelques kilomètres de Monte Carasso, Prix Meret Oppenheim : Sylvie Fleury, que l’artiste genevoise a utilisé à de une commune qui, grâce à l’interven- Thomas Hirschhorn et Luigi Snozzi. nombreuses reprises, comme peinture tion urbanistique de Luigi Snozzi, est Un plaisir qui va de pair avec la difculté murale, écrite au néon ou simple devenue un mythe pour la communauté de résumer en quelques lignes le plaquette commémorative. Comme peu de l’architecture internationale et un travail accompli durant le cours de leur d’autres artistes, Sylvie Fleury réussit à exemple à suivre. Au-delà de la rhéto- carrière et qui a eu un énorme impact montrer avec légèreté et facilité l’écart rique, il est émouvant pour un Tessinois au niveau global. existant entre la réalité et le désir, de parcourir les rues de Monte Carasso Il est intéressant de noter que ces entre projection publicitaire et limites et de se rendre compte que le mariage acteurs de la scène culturelle et artis- existentielles. Il est inutile de rappeler la entre modernité et tradition, entre tique suisse sont de parfaits témoins capacité de l’artiste à conjuguer le dis- territoire et avant-garde n’est pas qu’une de notre temps. L’année écoulée depuis cours féministe avec l’esthétique pop, chimère théorique, mais un parcours la dernière édition du concours a et avec une ironie mordante, ce qui rend possible et bien réel. été agitée de discussions fondamen- son œuvre particulièrement importante Il ne nous reste plus qu’à remercier tales, importantes et urgentes pour la dans le contexte actuel, parce qu’elle chaleureusement Sylvie Fleury, Thomas société civile et, par contrecoup, pour est capable de s’afrmer même dans Hirschhorn et Luigi Snozzi de l’enga- la scène artistique. Le débat sur l’égalité un monde obsédé par l’économie de gement qu’ils ont mis à développer et des genres, sur le rôle fondamental l’attention. réaliser des œuvres dont le potentiel est de l’éducation, sur les discriminations Toute personne ayant eu l’occasion loin d’être épuisé. C’est un grand hon- génératrices de violences, sur les dis- de rencontrer Thomas Hirschhorn, per- neur d’attribuer à de telles personnalités parités entre le Nord et le Sud, entre les sonnellement ou en s’immergeant dans le Grand Prix suisse d’art / Prix Meret femmes et les hommes et sur les autres l’une de ses œuvres, sera d’accord pour Oppenheim, mais surtout c’est un im- inégalités sociales a été intense. Dans dire que l’artiste incarne parfaitement mense plaisir d’être les contemporains sa recherche des causes profondes, le l’adjectif amazing. L’urgence et l’énergie de leurs œuvres, qui nous interrogent débat s’est étendu sur les injustices éco- que dégagent autant l’artiste que ses et nous forcent à réféchir à la réalité, et nomiques qui, loin de disparaître, n’ont installations sont uniques et témoignent enfn qui nous incitent à poursuivre nos fait qu’augmenter. Ainsi, il a été abon- non seulement d’un besoin profond et eforts pour devenir meilleurs. damment question des interférences opiniâtre de participer à la défnition entre intérêts économiques privés et du monde, mais aussi de la conviction Giovanni Carmine institutions publiques. Ces discussions que la confrontation critique avec la Président de la Commission fédérale sont bien entendu loin d’être à leur réalité contemporaine est le cœur et le d’art terme, mais nous nous trouvons certai- moteur du progrès. Et c’est pourquoi nement dans une phase de redéfnition Hirschhorn, plaçant consciemment la d’un système éthique commun et de la parole au centre de son travail, est aussi manière dont les individus et la société un infatigable médiateur et un excellent doivent agir et interagir. ambassadeur de l’art qui souligne Le trio lauréat du Grand prix suisse inlassablement le rôle fondamental que d’art / Prix Meret Oppenheim 2018 celui-ci peut et doit assumer dans le semble reféter d’une manière précise débat public. et naturelle le débat évoqué ci-dessus. Luigi Snozzi n’a lui aussi jamais Il est important de souligner cependant craint les luttes dialectiques, conscient que le choix de la Commission fédérale qu’il est du fait que l’architecture est d’art n’a pas été déterminé par ces une discipline qui a une infuence discussions. Car ce qui a présidé à la directe et importante sur la vie quoti- désignation des lauréats, ce sont des dienne et sur la société civile. Le côté critères de qualité artistique et l’impor- extraordinaire de l’architecte tessinois tance que les œuvres respectives de ne s’exprime pas seulement à travers Sylvie Fleury, Thomas Hirschhorn et la précision de sa pensée, mais surtout

10 11 Be Amazing – Be Better “Be Amazing” è uno degli slogan che, grazie all’intervento urbanistico che riecheggiano nelle nostre teste di Luigi Snozzi, è diventato mitico per È un vero piacere poter presentare la quando pensiamo a Sylvie Fleury, la comunità architettonica internazio- vincitrice e i vincitori dell’edizione 2018 uno slogan che l’artista ginevrina ha nale e un esempio da seguire. Al di là del Gran Premio svizzero d’arte / Prix utilizzato ripetutamente, come pittura della retorica, per un ticinese è quasi Meret Oppenheim: Sylvie Fleury, murale, scritta al neon o semplice commovente muoversi fra le strade di Thomas Hirschhorn e Luigi Snozzi. placchetta commemorativa. Come Monte Carasso e qui rendersi conto che Il piacere si associa però alla difcoltà pochi altri, Fleury riesce con estrema il connubio tra modernismo e tradizione, di riassumere in poche righe il lavoro leggerezza e facilità a dimostrare tra territorio e avanguardia non è solo che hanno sviluppato nel corso della la discrepanza tra realtà e desiderio, una chimera teorica, ma un percorso loro carriera e l’enorme impatto che tra proiezione pubblicitaria e limiti possibile e reale. questo ha avuto a livello globale. esistenziali. Inutile ricordare la capacità Non ci resta quindi che ringraziare È interessante notare come questi dell’artista di coniugare il discorso sentitamente Sylvie Fleury, Thomas attori della scena culturale e artistica femminista con l’estetica pop e con una Hirschhorn e Luigi Snozzi per l’impegno svizzera siano dei perfetti testimoni del tagliente ironia, cosa che rende l’opera profuso nello sviluppo e nella realizza- nostro tempo. L’anno trascorso dall’ulti- di Fleury particolarmente importante zione delle loro opere, il cui potenziale ma edizione è stato infatti scosso da nel contesto attuale, perché capace di è lungi dall’essere esaurito. È un grande discussioni fondamentali – importantis- afermarsi anche in mondo ossessiona- onore insignire queste personalità sime e urgenti – per la società civile e di to dall’economia dell’attenzione. del Gran Premio svizzero d’arte / Prix rifesso per la scena artistica. Il dibattito Chiunque abbia avuto l’occasione Meret Oppenheim, ma soprattutto è un sulla parità di genere, sul ruolo fonda- di incontrare Thomas Hirschhorn – immenso piacere essere dei contempo- mentale dell’educazione, sulle discrimi- personalmente o tramite una delle sue ranei della loro opera, perché questa nazioni generatrici di violenza, sulle opere immersive – concorderà che ci interroga, ci costringe a rifettere sulla ineguaglianze tra Nord e Sud, tra donne l’artista incarna perfettamente l’aggetti- realtà e ci stimola a proseguire nello e uomini e su altre disparità sociali è vo amazing. L’urgenza e l’energia sforzo di migliorare. stato intenso. Alla ricerca delle motiva- che sprigionano sia l’artista che le sue zioni profonde, il dibattito si è protratto installazioni sono uniche e dimostrano Giovanni Carmine sulle ingiustizie economiche, che, non solo un profondo e determinato Presidente della Commissione federale invece di sparire, purtroppo aumentano; bisogno di partecipare alla defnizione d’arte così come si è parlato animatamente del mondo, ma anche la convinzione delle interferenze tra interessi economi- che il confronto critico con la realtà ci privati e istituzioni pubbliche. Queste contemporanea sia il fulcro e il motore discussioni sono naturalmente lungi del progresso. In questo senso dall’essere concluse, ma certamente Hirschhorn, mettendo consapevolmente siamo nel pieno della ridefnizione di un la parola al centro del proprio lavoro, sistema etico da condividere e in questo è anche un instancabile mediatore senso anche della maniera in cui e un eccellente ambasciatore del ruolo individui e società devono agire e fondamentale che l’arte può – e deve – relazionarsi. assumere nel dibattito pubblico. Il trio vincitore del Gran Premio Nemmeno Luigi Snozzi ha mai svizzero d’arte / Prix Meret Oppenheim temuto il confronto dialettico, ben con- 2018 sembra rifettere in maniera preci- sapevole del fatto che l’architettura è sa e naturale il dibattito citato sopra. È una disciplina che ha un infusso diretto importante sottolineare tuttavia come la e importante sul quotidiano e quindi scelta della Commissione federale d’arte sulla società civile. La straordinarietà non sia avvenuta in maniera funzionale dell’architetto ticinese non si esprime a questo dibattito. Nella scelta sono stati però solo attraverso la precisione applicati anzitutto i criteri della qualità del suo pensiero, ma soprattutto nella artistica e della rilevanza che l’opera di capacità di accordare questo discorso Sylvie Fleury, Thomas Hirschhorn e Luigi con un’estetica radicale e inconfon- Snozzi ha al giorno d’oggi e avrà anche dibile. Chi scrive è cresciuto a pochi per le generazioni future. chilometri da Monte Carasso, comune

12 13 Be Amazing — Be Better wall painting, in neon writing, or as a In conclusion, we want to thank Sylvie plain commemorative plaque. Fleury Fleury, Thomas Hirschhorn, and Luigi It is a great pleasure to introduce the manages like few others to point out Snozzi for their profound involvement recipients of the Swiss Grand Art with the greatest ease and straightfor- in the development and realization Award / Prix Meret Oppenheim: Sylvie wardness the discrepancy between of their work whose potential is far from Fleury, Thomas Hirschhorn, and Luigi reality and desire, between the projec- exhausted. It is a great honor to award Snozzi. Yet this pleasure comes with tion of advertising and the limits of the Swiss Grand Award for Art / Prix the difculty of outlining their careers existence. The artist combines feminist Meret Oppenheim to these individuals. and the momentousness of their discourse with the aesthetic of Pop But above all it is a great pleasure to ex- infuence throughout the world in just and scathing irony. This makes Sylvie perience their work which makes us ask a few lines. Fleury’s work particularly relevant questions, forces us to confront reality, These three Swiss cultural practi- in today’s context, as it likewise exists and inspires us to make changes for the tioners may be seen as perfect witness- in a world obsessed with striving for better. es of our time. The year that has attention. passed since the last edition of the Those who have had the chance Giovanni Carmine award has been marked by major and to get to know Thomas Hirschhorn President of the Federal Art urgent debates on issues of fundamen- in person and through his immersive Commission tal importance to civil society, debates works will confrm that the epithet that have also had an impact on «amazing» fts him to a t. The urgency the cultural scene. The issues include and energy of the artist and his instal- gender equality, the importance of lations are exceptional and bespeak education, forms of discrimination that a deep and determined desire to take lead to violence, the divides between active part in shaping the world around the various regions of the world, the us as well as a conviction that critical gender gap between men and women, refection on the present is the motor and inequality in other areas of soci- of progress. Hirschhorn deliberately ety. Looking for reasons, the debates places words at the center of his work focused on economic inequity, which and is an indefatigable champion and is growing rather than declining. outstanding ambassador of the vital The conficts between public institu- role art can, and must, take on in public tions and private commercial interests discourse. have been a subject of intense debate. Luigi Snozzi similarly has never These debates are, of course, far shied away from confrontations. He from fnished, but we are now at a was aware that architecture has a direct point where our system of ethics and, and major bearing on everyday life consequently, forms of social exchange and therefore on society. The singularity and relations are being realigned. of the Ticino-based architect manifests The Swiss Grand Art Award / Prix itself in the precision of his ideas, but Meret Oppenheim 2018 honors three most of all in his ability to translate this individuals who consider these issues discourse into a radical and incompara- in precise and unbiased ways. The ble aesthetic. I grew up just a few miles selection by the Swiss Federal Art from Monte Carasso, the town that, Commission was not, however, based as a result of Luigi Snozzi’s urbanistic on those debates, but instead primarily interventions, became an important considered the criteria of artistic quality model for the international architecture and contemporary and future relevance scene. Being from Ticino, it was almost of the work of Sylvie Fleury, Thomas moving for me to walk the streets Hirschhorn, and Luigi Snozzi. of Monte Carasso and fnd there that “Be Amazing” is one of the slogans a merging of Modernism and tradition, that comes to mind when thinking of of local rootedness and avant-garde Sylvie Fleury. The Geneva-based artist was not just a theoretical construct, but has used this statement repeatedly: as possible and real.

14 15 « X = … » Samuel Gross en conversation avec Sylvie Fleury

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Pour Sylvie Fleury, sans aucun doute possible, l’art permet de changer la vie. L’artiste revient avec délicatesse et humour sur cet engagement à ne rien concevoir comme établi et indiscutable. La conversation suivante a eu lieu le 29 janvier 2018 à la villa Magica à Genève.

Samuel Gross Tu m’as dit une fois : « Faire de l’art c’est customiser la vie. »

Sylvie Fleury Peut-être que ce pourrait être aussi de mettre de la fourrure sur des tasses. Pour moi, un peu banalement peut-être, la vie consiste principalement à réféchir à sa propre identité, à en jouer, à la modifer, à la tordre. Ce sont des aspirations que tout le monde connaît. Meret Oppenheim dans un des carnets de notes de ses cours de maths a écrit l’équation suivante : « X = un lapin orange ». Ce pourrait être le titre de notre entretien.

SG Efectivement. Et, dans ton équation : « X = … » ?

SF X = un lapin rose ou, mieux, une ambulance avec des fammes. D’après-moi, il y a toujours une métaphore dans la vie qui nous pousse à penser aux voitures. On traverse la vie dans un véhicule spatial qui est notre enveloppe. Donc, les fammes que l’on met sur sa voiture, sont comme les choses que l’on crée pour se diféren- cier les uns des autres.

SG Dans le monde des voitures, comme dans la mode, l’objet de désir est un objet industriel, un objet qui peut être commun à plusieurs personnes.

SF C’est exactement pour cela que le custom est important. On apporte des petites modifcations pour s’approprier le monde. L’objet commun à tous est la vie. Le custom est juste une façon de transformer ou de faire empirer ce destin commun. En plus, je pense qu’aujourd’hui il est difcile de prétendre pouvoir entreprendre quoi que ce soit qui ne se rapporte pas à des modèles préexistants. A l’extrême, avec le temps, comme artiste, on doit faire avec des modèles existants dont on réalise qu’ils sont parfois même déjà les nôtres. Comment faire quelque chose qui ne connaîtrait pas de modèle ?

35 SG Parler du custom est aussi un moyen d’évoquer les nombreuses SG Etre une femme artiste c’est encore et toujours devoir prendre choses qui ne se voient pas dans tes œuvres, à commencer par à son compte un certain espace du désir ? Et, cette séduction les objets qui sont dans les shopping bags. Beaucoup de modifca- s’énonce avant tout dans un champ masculin ? tions faites sur les voitures ne sont pas perceptibles de l’extérieur. Pour revenir aux métaphores automobiles, dans ce monde automo- Et tout le monde ne sait pas que tes installations de shopping bags bile, aussi machiste que le monde de l’art peut l’être, une voiture contiennent des objets choisis qui renvoient à des motifs de l’histoire de femme est simplement une voiture qui ressemble à une voiture de l’art, à des icônes. Ce sont des appropriations de modifcation de mec, mais avec moins de puissance et de couple. de modèles iconiques, une encyclopédie de l’art passée par le fltre de la consommation rêveuse. Le surréalisme énonce une défnition SF Je repense à une exposition de groupe à laquelle j’ai participé, de l’art comme un objet de désir. Une déformation machiste de il y a très longtemps. J’avais fait un runway qui obligeait les gens à cet énoncé l’a rendu ou le rend très discutable. monter quelques marches, à le parcourir pour traverser la salle. J’avais fait tourner tous les spots, destinés aux œuvres, dans la direc- SF Meret Oppenheim a joué de ce désir, notamment dans tion du podium. J’ai d’ailleurs refait cette pièce pour ma rétrospective ce buste de 1968 Robe du soir avec collier soutien-gorge. Je trouve au MAMCO. Et cela évoque directement ce que tu dis. Au fond, très belle cette œuvre emplie d’une suggestion sadomasochiste on pourrait voir cet élément comme un Scott Burton, une sculpture troublante. minimale phallique. Mais la sculpture s’unit symboliquement avec l’espace, comme le musée avec les visiteurs. L’un ne peut pas exister SG Sur un autre mode d’appropriation, un certain nombre de tes sans l’autre. Tout est lié, comme les adeptes du New Age avaient pièces se proposent de féminiser, avec une certaine nonchalance l’habitude de dire : We are all one. J’ai aussi beaucoup joué de ces joyeuse, un faisceau de références. Dans ton travail, tu t’es approprié liens, même sur un registre encore plus décomplexé. J’ai ainsi certains gestes et objets qui renvoient clairement à des formes aussi fait cohabiter des champignons géants dans un univers formel masculines d’expression du désir artistique. Tu as par exemple fait de bandes évasées inspirées de Buren. J’ai toujours aimé imagi- détourné, ou en tout cas, discuté le mode sur lequel Carl Andre réduit ner que les choses ne font qu’interagir, se répondre, s’emboîter les l’histoire de la sculpture à une horizontalité. Tu as souligné son pré- unes dans les autres. supposé proprement masculin, qui dirait : « Je vais taper très fort sur toute l’histoire de la sculpture pour la réduire à un socle industriel, SG Dans une histoire culturelle plus large, tu as contribué à faire un geste primordial amplifé par l’industrie. », en écrasant du make-up évoluer la mode et les espaces auxquels la mode pensait pouvoir sur des installations qui s’inspiraient très nettement de sa sculpture. accéder. C’est un processus similaire de féminisation ironique et très aiguisée qui te permet d’imaginer faire dégouliner du slime pailleté sur SF Je ne pense pas que j’ai été la seule. Mais, pour rire, j’ai parfois des installations murales inspirées de Judd. Mais, cette provocation l’impression que les gens qui imaginent des vitrines à travers féminine ne nie pas les éléments de séduction présents dans les le monde, ont puisé des inspirations dans mon travail. C’est assez œuvres de référence. troublant pour moi. J’ai la vague impression d’avoir pu créer un vocabulaire qui autorise depuis des ponts formels entre l’art et la SF Dans une même idée, je repense actuellement beaucoup mode. Mais c’est un crossover. Si, avec d’autres, j’ai contribué à mes séries de fammes, que j’ai déclinées notamment sous à amener la mode dans le champ de l’art, j’ai aussi participé à rendre forme de peintures murales. C’est un des attributs les plus directs l’art plus présent dans la mode. De même sur un plan philosophique et classiques du custom. Et c’est vrai que c’est, là aussi, un geste les notions liées à ces chevauchements m’intéressent beaucoup. très masculin. On ne voit pas beaucoup de femmes conduisant des Je réféchis notamment aux miroirs ou à la surface, des éléments liés voitures fammées, ou de femmes peintres en carrosserie en autant à la défnition de l’art qu’à celle de la mode. peindre.

36 37 SG Je pense que c’est aussi un efet de génération. La mode a SF Je pense avoir depuis toujours gardé, et c’est un peu embarras- contribué à permettre aux artistes de votre génération de jouer de sant à avouer, une sorte de snobisme à vouloir faire les choses difé- vos identités et d’ouvrir de nouveaux espaces créatifs. remment. Je n’ai jamais aimé les règles établies et j’ai toujours essayé de m’autoriser à les discuter. Ainsi, par exemple, quand j’avais 20 ans, SF Au moment de la mort d’Alaïa, j’ai publié une photographie du j’avais une Lada que je voulais transformer en ambulance. J’ai donc vernissage de l’exposition No man’s time dans lequel j’étais habillée tenté de la faire échapper à son destin de break bon marché. Elle a en Alaïa de la tête aux pieds. A cette date, on n’attendait pas d’une donc subi beaucoup de transformations pour un efet illusionniste. artiste qu’elle ose afrmer son goût pour la mode. Peut-être qu’on J’ai toujours voulu transformer la réalité, transformer les objets de tous l’aurait mieux accepté de la muse d’un artiste, mais pas d’une femme les jours. J’ai toujours eu le désir de faire tout autrement que tout le artiste. On pourrait, par là, saisir défnitivement l’occasion de discu- monde, comme une obsession. C’est peut-être aussi pour cela que la ter de ce motif récurrent de la muse que l’on colle aussi sur Meret mode m’intéresse. Elle se nourrit de l’air du temps, mais produit aussi Oppenheim et tant d’autres femmes artistes. Quelle devrait être des codes que j’ai toujours voulu détourner. C’est cette énergie cette position féminine prétendument enviable d’accompagner de sa d’appropriation qui m’amuse. En rentrant à Genève après New York, présence la création des autres, des hommes ? Donc, quand je où j’ai pu aller très jeune étudier dans une école de cinéma, c’était m’habillais en Mugler ou en Alaïa, et que je me coifais de manière l’hystérie. Je ne pouvais plus voir le monde comme établi. Je voulais extravagante pour aller à des vernissages au volant de mon énorme tout changer. J’ai ouvert une galerie avec des murs noirs. J’ai exposé Caprice Classic, je trouvais que le système qui tentait de ne jamais du grafti quand tout le monde trouvait ça indigeste et organisé révéler rien qui puisse choquer ou présenter de diférences était des fêtes extravagantes. Mais tout cela se passe aussi à un moment d’une hypocrisie monstrueuse. Il y a toujours eu un fond de morale où le punk est à la mode. C’était aussi un truc dans l’air du temps. castratrice dans le milieu de l’art. Pour faire un parallèle, pour moi la bague de Meret Oppenheim, cette Je n’étais, étrangement peut-être, pas très appréciée des féministes. petite cage qui enferme un carré de sucre est géniale. Lorsque le Mon attitude les choquait. On m’a même accusée d’être antifémi- sucre s’efrite, qu’il disparaît, tu remets un nouveau carré de sucre ou niste. Les femmes américaines étaient plus ouvertes, elles pensaient non. J’aime que cet objet évolue et se transforme. mon travail pour énoncer : « This is new feminism. » Je ne suis pas loin de penser que ces deux réactions m’ont poussée SG Tu penses avoir la même énergie que celle que tu avais à tes à enfoncer le clou en jouant des limites entre les champs, en débuts ? donnant à voir des objets qui évoquaient directement la société de consommation. J’ai pu, ainsi, tenter de faire passer le message. Mais, SF Non, c’est bien sûr diférent. Automatiquement, avec la somme dans un registre parallèle, quand j’ai fait en 1993 la couverture des expériences vécues on voit plus clairement. On se détend aussi d’Artforum, des jeunes gens sont aussi venus me remercier à New un peu. Mais je continue à penser que prendre le contrepied de York. Ils voyaient en moi une justifcation libératrice, qui leur permet- ce qui est en train de se passer donne de l’énergie. Pour mon travail, tait de continuer à vivre leur vie dans un espace entre la mode et l’art il me faut toujours avoir une certaine compréhension du moment. sans devoir se justifer davantage. Heureusement, peut-être, ces J’aime avoir un survol du temps que l’on traverse ensemble. Quand je deux questions se posent diféremment aujourd’hui. dis cela, je pense à avoir une attention au monde un peu légère mais, en même temps, extrêmement curieuse et ouverte, la même que SG Tu sembles toujours faire la même chose avec la même celle qui est la nôtre quand on surfe sur Internet. énergie. Cette énergie est objectivement rattachée au moment que tu vis. Tu as eu le courage de faire diverses séries et pas seulement SG Les tensions homme – femme sur lesquelles tu jouais dans ton celles qui t’ont rendues célèbre. Ton travail est bien plus polymorphe travail sont toujours présentes dans ton esprit ? que ce à quoi certains ont voulu le réduire. SF Je pense qu’elles le sont, mais le format de leur expression est devenu plus nuancé. La somme de tout ce que j’ai fait me donne

38 39 une lecture diférente de ce que je fais aujourd’hui. J’ai peut-être Je regrette parfois d’être la seule qui puisse se souvenir de tout le moins besoin d’être explicite sur certaines choses. Je ne pense pas processus qui est nécessaire à cet aboutissement (l’œuvre en elle- que la clef de lecture évoquant l’opposition féminin – masculin peut même). Pour moi l’expérience liée aux objets fait intimement partie s’appliquer à tous mes travaux. On peut dire qu’une partie de mon de l’œuvre. travail, surtout à mes débuts, tente vraiment de féminiser des œuvres masculines. Mais, peut-être du fait que le monde de l’art a heureuse- SG Tu veux parler de ton expérience de performeuse, de ton goût ment quelque peu évolué et que l’on ne peut plus simplement parler à produire une œuvre d’art totale, parfois déjantée, se jouant même de suprématie absolument masculine, ce n’est plus le centre de du statut de tes propres œuvres ? C’est vrai que, pour moi, tu es trop ma pratique. Mais, si je revoyais une œuvre qui me donnait à repen- souvent réduite à une image de tes objets. ser ce vis-à-vis dans ce sens, je n’hésiterais pas à m’en saisir. Le temps n’existe pas sur ce sujet. Pour moi aucune des séries SF En efet, je continue à produire des performances aujourd’hui, d’œuvres qui composent mon corpus n’est close. Je ne crois pas vrai- en en créant certaines ou en en recontextualisant des anciennes. ment aux arbres généalogiques qui résumeraient l’évolution d’une C’est toujours une joie immense que de travailler avec d’autres pratique artistique. J’ai l’impression que, certes, le temps existe, mais artistes comme cela a été le cas lors de ma performance chez il a peu de prise sur moi. Notre vie est multilatérale. Thaddaeus Ropac à Pantin en 2015, une collaboration sonore avec Diemo Schwartz de l’IRCAM pour le son et 5 jeunes comédiennes SG Tu aurais pu rester une personne qui vivait ses rêves dans pour l’action. Mais intimement, il m’apparaît aujourd’hui que la perfor- les espaces qui t’étaient oferts : la mode, le cinéma, la fête. Pourquoi mance est intrinsèquement liée à mon processus de création, de près as-tu eu ce désir de produire des objets ? ou de loin. Que ce soit en écrasant du make-up sur des voitures pour ensuite les photographier, en roulant dans des paysages sublimes SF On pourrait dire que j’ai eu envie de changer de rôle et de pour parfois en faire une vidéo ou en imaginant, à la frontière de devenir actrice plutôt que spectatrice, artiste plutôt que muse. Je la Corée du Nord et du Sud, montrer un escarpin Gucci géant (ce qui voulais proposer et énoncer de façon plus claire une certaine vision s’est fnalement réalisé par la suite à Gimpo Park). Dans ce cas, par du monde, de ses tensions, de ses absurdités et contradictions. exemple, au fnal, les gens ne verront que la sculpture ou une image Je voulais poser sur le monde qui m’était familier un fltre qui de cette sculpture. révélerait des efets de tension. Lorsque j’allais à New York faire une L’expérience précédant toute réalisation de mes pièces fait vraiment exposition, j’achetais des magazines à lire dans l’avion. Je regardais pour moi intimement partie de mes œuvres. L’œuvre est une perfor- ce qui faisait l’actualité de la mode, de la création, du design, de mance en soi. C’est, peut-être, aussi pour cela qu’une de mes la politique. J’y puisais une idée et l’exposition se construisait autour. premières œuvres s’intitule : « C’est la vie ! ». Le titre même souligne Je ne veux pas dire que j’ai trouvé toutes mes idées dans un maga- l’importance du processus performatif de toute création. La vie est zine de mode, mais cela servait de support à ma réfexion. Ce choix une performance. Nous sommes uniquement libres de décider un délibéré de la forme du geste créatif était pour moi un vrai statement. peu de la customisation de nos vies. Je voulais mettre en doute le sérieux du milieu, provoquer une réponse à l’art institutionnel, rompre avec des codes de l’époque. SG En même temps, par une série de hasards provoqués ou non, tu as eu l’opportunité d’être à des moments donnés dans des circons- SG Que penses-tu quand tu regardes tes anciennes pièces ? tances qui font maintenant partie de l’histoire culturelle récente. Mais, par ailleurs, pour d’autres, tu as aussi provoqué beaucoup de SF Lorsque je me plonge dans des anciens shopping bags, par moments particuliers, notamment en enseignant. exemple, j’y vois le moment où ils ont été créés. Ce sont comme des polaroïds ou des time capsules. Pour d’autres pièces la relecture SF L’enseignement est peut-être la chose que j’aimais le plus. difère de l’intention originelle. La patine du temps leur a conféré une Seul le système disciplinaire m’est impossible! C’est la partie la plus autre symbolique. frustrante de l’enseignement. J’ai enseigné pendant 15 ans. J’adorais

40 41 faire des projets avec les étudiants et partager des moments et des nent. Et fnalement, j’aime bien avoir la possibilité de conserver une visions. J’aimais particulièrement faire des expériences étranges certaine aptitude à la provocation. avec eux. Je les ai par exemple amenés faire de la méditation dans une abbaye. C’était très drôle. On se levait à six heures du matin, SG Je pense que nous sommes partis d’une situation dans laquelle on suivait les règles monastiques strictes. On était hors de notre les espaces de liberté à explorer étaient plutôt liés au monde de cadre familier et cela permettait d’avoir des échanges très enrichis- l’art pour aboutir à l’actuelle dans laquelle s’il en reste, ceux-ci sont sants. C’était comme un jeu. Dans un autre registre, on prenait plutôt liés au monde de la mode. des cartes. On tirait au hasard et on essayait de faire quelque chose autour de la thématique qu’on croyait lire dans les cartes. J’ai toujours SF On peut en tout cas dire qu’avec le temps, les magazines cru être un bon professeur. J’ai d’ailleurs encore un projet, que je de mode ont élargi leur manière de présenter les objets et de penser n’ai malheureusement pas pu encore réaliser avec des étudiants. Je leurs campagnes. Aujourd’hui les magazines sont devenus beaucoup rêvais de mettre en place un plateau de télévision pour leur montrer, plus créatifs qu’ils ne l’étaient avant. Et l’art a ouvert son champ entre autres, qu’ils peuvent s’adresser à une audience bien plus de vision. Cela s’est fait au prix de devoir heurter pas mal d’idées grande que celle à laquelle ils songent. C’est une chose que j’aurais préconçues, des deux côtés. Il n’en reste pas moins qu’il n’est voulu transmettre à des jeunes artistes. toujours pas si simple d’être une artiste. C’est sûr que des person- nalités précédentes, comme Meret Oppenheim, ont dû ouvrir de SG Durant ces mêmes années d’enseignement, dans un autre nombreuses autres portes. Heureusement, les choses ne sont jamais contexte, tu as focalisé autour de toi des critiques très dures, de immobiles. Mais il faut continuer à faire tomber plus de barrières. personnes qui ne supportent pas que l’on puisse prétendre que l’art C’est du boulot et quelqu’un doit le faire ! est un jeu.

SF Au début ça m’a afecté. Beaucoup de mes amis curateurs me rappellent qu’à un certain moment, on ne pouvait pas prononcer le nom de Sylvie Fleury sans essuyer des remarques. Mais ces critiques m’ont aussi peut-être confortée dans l’idée que je faisais quelque chose d’utile. J’avais eu cette conversation avec Pipilotti Rist, lors de son exposition au Centre d’Art à Genève. Je lui avais dit : « C’est fantastique, toutes les critiques sont positives à ton égard. Regarde, c’est vraiment super ! » Et c’était vrai. Alors qu’au même moment à Zurich, pour une de mes expositions, on avait ressorti plein d’histoires liées à mon mariage, à mon ex-boyfriend, à mon boyfriend, à mon obsession pour la mode… J’étais clairement, à cette date, un personnage qui énervait, qui divisait. Elle m’a répon- du : « Tu te rends pas compte comme c’est ennuyeux. Je rêve d’une critique dure à mon encontre. » De l’entendre de sa bouche m’a permis de voir les choses diféremment. Je n’ai pas vraiment compris, à mes débuts, pourquoi des choses que je montrais, qui me semblaient assez anodines, produisaient une telle levée de boucliers. Et ça me semble toujours étrange. Je pense que j’étais sensible à des choses qui m’agaçaient, des choses qui me gê- naient, que je voulais relever. Je me suis confortée dans l’idée que si mon travail irritait autant, c’est qu’il était aussi sûrement perti-

42 43 Sylvie Fleury est née en 1961 à Genève, où elle vit et travaille. Elle est “X = …” Furthermore, I think it is difcult today Samuel Gross in conversation with to say that you are able to undertake représentée par les galeries Thaddaeus Ropac à Paris et Salzbourg ; Sylvie Fleury anything that is unrelated to pre- Salon 94 à New York ; Mehdi Chouakri à Berlin ; Almine Rech à existent models. In the extreme, with Bruxelles et Karma International à Zurich. For Sylvie Fleury, there is no doubt, art time, as an artist, one has to make Elle a présenté son travail dans de nombreuses expositions mono- can change your life. The artist dis- do with existing models that we realise cusses graciously and with humour the are sometimes already our own. graphiques dès le début des années 90 dans diverses institutions commitment not to conceive of anything How can one make something that internationales comme : la Neue Galerie am Landesmuseum à Graz as established and indisputable. knows no model? (1993) ; Le Consortium à Dijon (1994) ; le MAMCO à Genève (en The conversation took place on January 1996 et en 2008) ; le Migros Museum für Gegenwartskunst à Zurich 29, 2018 at Villa Magica in Geneva. SG Talking about customisation is also a way of evoking many things (1998) ; le Kunstmuseum de Saint-Gall (2000) ; le Museum für Neue Samuel Gross: You said to me once: that cannot be seen in your works, Kunst / ZKM de Karlsruhe (2001) ; le Magasin de Grenoble (2001) ; “Making art is customising life.” beginning with the objects that are in le CAC de Málaga (2011) ; le Bass Art Museum de Miami (2016) et la the shopping bags. Many of the Villa Stuck de Munich (2016). Sylvie Fleury: Perhaps it can also modifcations made to cars are not be putting fur on cups. For me, a little perceptible from the outside. And not Ses œuvres ont été présentées dans de nombreuses expositions unoriginally perhaps, life mainly everybody knows that your installations importantes telles que Aperto durant la biennale de Venise 1993 et la consists of thinking about one’s own of shopping bags contain selected biennale de São Paulo en 1998. Ses œuvres sont conservées dans de identity, playing with it, modifying it, objects that refer to the motifs of art très nombreuses collections publiques telles que : le Museum of twisting it. These are aspirations that history, to icons. These are appropria- everybody knows. tions of modifcations of iconic models, Modern Art à New York ; le ZKM Center for Art and Media à Karsruhe ; In one of her maths notebooks, Meret an encyclopaedia of art passed through Daimler Contemporary à Berlin ; le Migros Museum für Gegenwarts- Oppenheim wrote the following equa- the flter of escapist consumption. kunst à Zurich ; le MAMCO à Genève ; le Musée des Arts Appliqués et tion: “X = an orange rabbit”. That could Surrealism formulates a defnition of art d’Art Contemporain de Vienne et le Bass Art Museum de Miami. be the title of our interview. as an object of desire. A chauvinistic misrepresentation of this statement has SG Indeed. And, in your equation: rendered it or renders it very debatable. Principales monographies “X = … ”? Sylvie Fleury, Villa Stuck, Munich, 2016 ; Sylvie Fleury, Société des SF Meret Oppenheim plays on this Arts-Genève, JRP|Ringier, Zurich, 2016 ; Sylvie Fleury, CAC Málaga, SF X = a pink rabbit or, better, an desire, notably in the 1968 bust Evening ambulance with fames. I think that Dress with Bra-Strap Necklace. I fnd Málaga, 2011 ; Identity, Pain, Astral Projection, Les Presses du réel, there is always a metaphor in life that this work flled with an unsettling sado- Dijon, 2001 ; SF49000, Hatje Cantz, Ostfldern-Ruit, 2001 ; Ô – Sylvie incites us to think about cars. We masochistic suggestion very beautiful. Fleury, Artsonje Center Seoul, 2001 ; Sylvie Fleury, Hatje Cantz, traverse life in a spatial vehicle that is Ostfldern-Ruit, 1999 ; First Spaceship on Venus and Other Vehicles, our envelope. Thus, the fames that we SG On another mode of appropri- put on our cars are like the things we ation, a certain number of your pieces Lars Müller, Baden, 1998 ; The Art of Survival, Neue Galerie am create to set ourselves apart from other set out to feminise, with a certain joyful Landesmuseum, Graz, 1993. people. nonchalance, a stack of references. In your work, you have appropriated Samuel Gross est né en 1976. Il vit à Genève et à Rome. Il est le SG In the world of cars, as in fashion, certain gestures and objects that clearly curateur en chef de l’Institut suisse de Rome. Il organise des exposi- the object of desire is an industrial refer to masculine forms of the expres- object, an object that may be shared by sion of artistic desire. You have, for tions dans les deux principaux espaces de l’institut (Rome et Milan), several people. example, twisted or, in any case, dis- enseigne à l’ECAL à Lausanne et mène également des projets indé- cussed the way Carl Andre reduces the pendants. Il a été l’éditeur de la monographie Sylvie Fleury, parue en SF That is exactly why customisa- history of sculpture to a horizontality. 2016 chez JRP|Ringier. tion is important. Small modifcations You have underlined his truly masculine are made to appropriate the world. presupposition, which would go — “I’m The object common to all is life. The going to come down hard on the entire Photographie : Reto Schmid customisation is just a way of trans- history of sculpture to reduce it to forming or making worse this common an industrial plinth, a primordial gesture destiny. developed by industry.” — by crushing

44 45 make-up on installations that were I also played a lot with these links, even so many other women artists were also diferently. I never liked the rules and I very clearly inspired by his sculpture. on an even more unapologetic register. saddled with. What was this supposedly always tried to allow myself to discuss A similar process of ironic and very I thus also made giant mushrooms enviable female position of accompany- them. Thus, for example, when I was sharp feminisation that allows you coexist in a formal universe made of ing with one’s presence the creation of twenty, I had a Lada that I wanted to to imagine drip glittery slime over wall tapered stripes inspired by Buren. others, men, supposed to be? transform into an ambulance. So I tried installations inspired by Judd. But, this I’ve always liked to imagine that things So, when I dressed in Mugler or Alaïa, to make it escape its destiny as an feminine provocation does not deny only interact, answer each other, ft into and extravagantly styled my hair to go to inexpensive estate car. It has thus the elements of seduction present in the each other. openings driving my huge Caprice undergone a long of transformations for works of reference. Classic, I found that the system that an illusionistic efect. I always wanted to SG In a wider cultural history, you attempted never to reveal anything that transform reality, transform everyday SF In the same vein, I’m thinking contributed to the development of fash- could shock or present diferences was objects. I always wanted to do every- a lot again about my series of fames, ion and the spaces in which it thought monstrously hypocritical. There has thing diferently from everybody else, it which I produced in particular in the it could access. always been an element of castrating was an obsession. That is also perhaps form of murals. It is one of the most morals in the art milieu. I have never why I’m interested in fashion. It is direct and classic attributes of customi- SF I don’t think I was the only one. been, strangely perhaps, very appreciat- infuenced by the spirit of the times, sation. And it’s true that it is, once again, But, for a laugh, I sometimes get the ed by feminists. My attitude shocked but also produces codes that I’ve always a very masculine gesture. You don’t see impression that the people that design them. I was even accused of being wanted to change. It’s this energy of many women driving cars with fames window displays around the world have anti-feminist. American women were appropriation that amuses me. After or women automotive paint specialists drawn their inspirations from my work. more open, they thought that my work returning to Geneva after New York, painting them. I fnd it rather unsettling. I have the expressed the same thing as they did where I was able to go at a very young vague impression of having been able when they said: “This is new feminism.” age to study in a flm school, it was SG Is being a woman artist again to create a vocabulary that has since I am almost inclined to think that these hysteria. I could no longer see the world and again having to take responsibility authorised formal bridges between art two reactions drove me to ram the point as established. I wanted to change for a certain space of desire? And this and fashion. But it’s a crossover. While, home by playing with the limits be- everything. I opened a gallery with black seduction is expressed above all in a with others, I contributed to leading tween the felds, by showing objects walls. I exhibited grafti when everyone masculine feld? fashion into the feld of art, I also that directly evoke consumer society. I found it indigestible and organised To get back to automobile metaphors, participated in making art more present could thus attempt to get the message extravagant parties. But all this was also in the automobile world, as male in fashion. Likewise, on a philosophical across. taking place at a time when punk was in chauvinist as the art world perhaps, a level, I’m very much interested in But, in a parallel register, when I was on fashion. It was also something in the woman’s car is simply a car that looks concepts related to these overlaps. I’m the cover of Artforum in 1993, young spirit of the times. To draw a parallel, for like a man’s car but with less power and thinking in particular about mirrors or people came to thank me in New York. me it’s Meret Oppenheim’s ring, the torque. on the surface, elements as connected They saw in me a liberating justifcation, small cage containing a sugar cube is to the defnition of art as to that of that allowed them to continue to live brilliant. When the sugar crumbles SF I’m thinking again about a group fashion. their lives in a space between fashion away, when it disappears, you put in a exhibition in which I participated, a very and art without having to justify them- new sugar cube or not. I like the fact long time ago. I had made a runway that SG I think that it is also a genera- selves further. that this object evolves and changes. obliged people to go up some stairs tional efect. Fashion helped enable the Fortunately, perhaps, these two ques- and walk across it to get to the other artists of your generation to play tions are asked diferently today. SG Do you think you have the same side of the room. I had all the spotlights, on your identities and to open new energy as you did when you were intended for the works, turned in the creative spaces. SG You seem to be always doing the starting out? direction of the podium (moreover, same thing with the same energy. This I remade this piece for my retrospective SF When Alaïa died, I published a energy is objectively connected with the SF No, it’s diferent, of course. at MAMCO). And that directly evokes photograph from the opening of the moment you are living in. You had the Automatically, with the sum of lived what you are saying. Basically, we could exhibition No Man’s Time in which courage to make various series and not experiences, we see more clearly. see this element as a Scott Burton, I was dressed head to toe in Alaïa. Back only the ones that made you famous. We also relax a little. But I still think that a phallic minimalist sculpture. But the then, no one expected an artist to dare Your work is much more polymorphous taking the opposite line of what sculpture symbolically unites with the assert her taste for fashion. Perhaps than what some people wanted to is happening gives energy. For my work, space, like the museum with the visitors. it might have been better received from reduce it to. I need a certain understanding of the One cannot exist without the other. the muse of an artist, but not from a moment. I like having an overview of Everything is connected, like the adepts woman artist. That’s gives us the oppor- SF I think I’ve always kept, and it’s a the time we spend together. When I say of New Age had the habit of saying: tunity to discuss the recurrent motif of little embarrassing to admit, a kind of that, I think I have an attention to the “We are all one.” the muse, which Meret Oppenheim and snobbery about wanting to do things world that is a little light but, at the same

46 47 time, extremely curious and open, the a flter that would reveal the efects of for the sound and fve young actresses around the themes we thought we same as the one we have when we are the tensions. for the action. But profoundly, it seems could read in the cards. I always thought surfng the Internet. When I went to New York to do exhibi- to me now that performance is intrinsi- I was a good teacher. tions, I bought magazines to read on the cally tied to my creative process, directly I still have another project, that I unfor- SG Is the tension between men and plane. I looked at what was making the or indirectly. Whether by crushing tunately haven’t yet been able to do women on which you play in your work headlines in fashion, art, design and make-up on cars to photograph them with the students. I dreamed about still present in your mind? politics. I got an idea and the exhibition afterwards, by driving through sublime set up a television set to show them, was built around it. I don’t want to say landscapes sometimes to make of video among other things, that they could SF I think it is, but the format of its that I found all of my ideas in a fashion or by imagining, on the border of North address a much larger audience than expression has become more nuanced. magazine, but that served as a basis and South Korea, showing a giant Gucci they thought. It’s something that I would The sum of all that I have done gives for my thinking. For me, the deliberate court shoe [which took place in the have liked to transmit to young artists. me a diferent reading of what I am choice of the form of the creative end at Gimpo Park]. In this case, for doing now. I perhaps have less of a gesture was a real statement. I wanted example, in the end, people will only see SG During these teaching years, in need to be explicit about certain things. to call into doubt the seriousness of the sculpture or an image of the another context, you drew criticism that I do not think that the key to interpreta- the milieu, provoke a response from sculpture. The experience preceding was very harsh from people that would tion evoking the female-male opposi- institutional art, break with the codes the making of my pieces is really an not stand the idea that one could claim tion can be applied to all my works. of the time. integral part of my works. The work is a that art is a game. It could be said that part of my work, performance in itself. That is also why, especially when I was starting out, SG What do you think when you see perhaps, that one of my frst works is SF In the beginning, that afected really attempted to feminise male your older pieces? called C’est la vie ! [That’s Life!]. The title me. Many of my curator friends remind- works. But, perhaps as a result of the itself underlines the importance of the ed me that at a certain time, one could fact that the art world has fortunately SF When I immerse myself in the performative process of any creation. not say the name Sylvie Fleury without evolved a little and that one can no old shopping bags, for example, I see Life is a performance. We are only free having to endure remarks. But this critic longer simply talk about absolutely the moment when they were created. to decide a little about the customisa- also perhaps confrmed the idea that male supremacy, it is no longer the They’re like Polaroids or time capsules. tion of our lives. I was doing something useful. I had this centre of my practice. But if I saw again For other pieces, the rereading difers conversation with Pipilotti Rist, during a work that led me to rethink this from the original intention. The patina of SG At the same time, by a series of her exhibition at the Centre d’Art in vis-à-vis in this sense, I would not time has conferred another symbolism coincidences – provoked or not – you Geneva. I said to her: “It’s fantastic, all hesitate to examine it. Time does not on them. had the opportunity to be at given the critiques about you have been exist with regards to this subject. I sometimes regret being the only one moments in circumstances that now positive. Look, it’s really great!” And it For me, none of the series of works that who can remember the entire process are part of recent cultural history. But, was true. While at the same time in make up my corpus is closed. I don’t that was necessary for this result moreover, for others, you have also Zurich, for one of my exhibitions, lots of really believe in the family trees that [the work in itself]. For me, the experi- brought about many special moments, stories linked to my marriage, my sum up the evolution of an artistic ence linked to the objects is an integral particularly while teaching. ex-boyfriend, my boyfriend and my practice. I have the impression that, of part of the work. obsession for fashion were trotted out. course, time exists, but it has little hold SF Teaching was perhaps the thing Then, I was clearly someone who over me. Our lives are multilateral. SG Do you want to talk about your that I liked most. I only the disciplinary annoyed people, who was divisive. She experience as a performer, your taste for system impossible! It’s the most replied: “You don’t realise how boring SG You could have remained a per- producing a total work of art, sometimes frustrating part of teaching. I taught for it is. I dream about getting a bad review.” son who lived her dreams in the spaces of the wall, even playing on the status ffteen years. I loved doing projects with Hearing it from her allowed me to see that were given to you: fashion, cinema, of your own works? For me, you are students and sharing moments and things diferently. parties. Why did you have the desire to too often reduced to an image of your visions. I particularly liked doing strange I didn’t really understand, when I was produce objects? objects. experiments with them. For example, starting out, why the things that I I brought them to an abbey to meditate. showed, which I thought were pretty SF You could say that I wanted to SF I continue to produce perfor- It was very funny. We got up at six ordinary, caused such an uproar. And it change roles and became an actor mances now, by creating some of them o’clock in the morning, we followed still seems strange to me. I think that rather than a spectator, an artist rather or recontextualising older ones. It’s strict monastic rules. It was outside I was sensitive to things that annoyed than a muse. I wanted to propose and always a great joy to work with other our familiar surroundings, which me, things that bothered me, which I express more clearly a certain vision artists as was the case during my allowed for very enriching exchanges. wanted to point out. I reassured myself of the world and it tensions, absurdities performance at Thaddaeus Ropac in It was like a game. In another register, with the idea that is my work was so and contradictions. I wanted to place Pantin in 2015, a sonic collaboration we picked cards. We picked them irritating it was because it was also over the world that was familiar to me with Diemo Schwartz of the IRCAM at random and tried to do something surely pertinent. And fnally, I like having

48 49 the possibility of maintaining a certain in Aperto at the Venice Biennale in aptitude for provocation. 1993 and the São Paulo Biennale in 1998. Her work is included in public SG I think that we started with a sit- collections such as The Museum of uation in which the spaces of freedom Modern Art, New York; ZKM Center to explore were mainly linked to the art for Art and Media, Karsruhe; Daimler world and ended up with a situation Contemporary, Berlin; Migros Museum in which, if some still remain, they are für Gegenwartskunst, Zurich; MAMCO, mainly linked to the world of fashion. Geneva; and the Museum of Applied Arts / Contemporary Art, Vienna, Bass SF We can in any case say that with Art Museum, Miami. time, fashion magazines broaden their way of presenting objects and thinking Selected monographs: their campaigns. Today, magazines Sylvie Fleury, Villa Stuck, Munich, 2016 have become much more creative than Sylvie Fleury, Société des Arts-Genève, they were before. Art opened up their JRP / Ringier, Zurich, 2016 feld of vision. This happened at the Sylvie Fleury, CAC Málaga, Málaga, 2011 cost of having to go against quite a few Identity, Pain, Astral Projection, Les preconceived ideas on both sides. Presses du réel, Dijon, 2001 Nevertheless, it’s still not that simple to SF49000, Hatje Cantz, Ostfldern-Rult, be an artist. It’s true that past person- 2001 alises, like Meret Oppenheim, had to Ô - Sylvie Fleury, Artsonje Center, Seoul, open many other doors. Fortunately, 2001 things are never immobile. But we must Sylvie Fleury, Hatje Cantz, Ostfldern- continue to overthrow more barriers. Rult, 1999 It’s hard work and somebody has to do First Spaceship on Venus and Other it! Vehicles, Lars Müller, Baden, 1998 The Art of Survival, Neue Galerie am Sylvie Fleury was born in 1961 in Landesmuseum, Graz, 1993 Geneva, where she lives and works. She is currently represented by Samuel Gross was born in 1976. He the Thaddaeus Ropac galleries in Paris lives in Geneva and Rome. He is the and Salzburg; Salon 94 in New York; chief curator of the Istituto Svizzero Mehdi Chouakri in Berlin; Almine Rech di Roma. He organises exhibitions in the in Brussels and Karma International two main spaces of the institute (Rome in Zurich. and Milan), teaches at the ECAL in She has held solo exhibitions at Lausanne, and carries out independent international art institutions since projects. He edited the monograph on the early 1990s, including the Sylvie Fleury published by JRP|Ringier Neue Galerie am Landesmuseum, in 2016. Graz (1993); Le Consortium, Dijon (1994); the MAMCO, Geneva Photographs: Reto Schmid (1996 and 2008); Migros Museum für Gegenwartskunst, Zurich (1998); Kunstmuseum Sankt Gallen (2000); Museum für Neue Kunst / ZKM, Karlsruhe (2001); Le Magasin, Grenoble (2001); and the CAC Málaga (2011), Bass Art Museum, Miami (2016), Villa Stuck, Munich (2016). She has been included in many group exhibitions worldwide and participated

50 51 “Art, Art and Self” Yasmil Raymond in conversation with Thomas Hirschhorn

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67 68 My frst experience of Thomas Hirschhorn’s work was Swiss Army Knife (1998); in the spring of 1999, it was on view at the Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago. I was about to complete my under- graduate degree in art and immediately understood that everything I had been taught was obsolete. Hirschhorn constructs his work quickly using common materials that have become his signature: packaging cardboard, plywood, brown packing tape, magazine cutouts, cellophane wrap, and gold and silver foil. The earnestness in his work can be destabilizing, the abundance and density of materi- als overwhelming. And yet, all the excessiveness is never gratuitous or precious. Hirschhorn’s work challenges intellectual snobbery with its furious clarity. “To make art politically,” Hirschhorn said early on, “means to choose materials that do not intimidate, a format that doesn't dominate, a device that does not seduce. To make art politi- cally is not to submit to an ideology or to denounce the system …. It is to work with the fullest energy against the principle of ‘quality’.” I followed Hirschhorn’s work for two decades, traveling to dozens of cities, including Amsterdam, Berlin, London, Los Angeles, Mexico City, Minneapolis, Montreal, New York, Paris, Pittsburg, São Paulo, and Saint Petersburg. In 2013, I held the title of Ambassador to his outdoor project Gramsci Monument, which was commissioned by Dia Art Foundation and located at Forest Houses in the South Bronx. The following interview took place through an exchange of emails early this year.

Yasmil Raymond Where are you with your work today? What are some of the problems you are grappling with?

Thomas Hirschhorn I still have so much to do — I am not complaining because I am very happy to have so many projects to do for exhibitions. I still have much to assert and many ideas to give form to. I do challenging work and doing it is truly a never-ending fght. My problem with each work is: how can I take a position? How can I give form to this position? And how can this form create a truth — a universal truth — beyond aesthetic, political, economic conventions? My problem with my work in public space is how to provide an answer to the question “why non-permanency persists?” How to give a form to the logic of “non-permanency”? And how do the conditions for its precarious persistence take form in absolute necessity and urgency, as opposed to a form of “ephemeral logic” related to objects and death. My

71 problem is: how can my work — and all works of art — resist the many taken seriously. Collages still resist consumption, even if they, like safety and security restrictions that have increased tremendously in everything else, must fght glamor and fashion. In doing collages museums, galleries, art spaces as well as in public space? I want to put together what cannot be put together. I think that’s the aim of a collage and my mission as artist. I want to put the whole YR The commodity dilemma? world into my collages; I want to express the complexity and contra- diction of the world in one single collage. Not the world as a whole TH Today, I have to confront the hyper-power of security and safety but a fragmented world, the world that I am living in. I want to reach, and struggle for my own logic and for the form of my work at almost to touch history beyond the historical fact. every occasion to exhibit it. It has even reached the point that security and safety rules tend to infuence the form and the aesthetics of YR Do you see a fundamental relationship between war and works of art. I sometimes ask myself whether the cleanliness and wealth? space suitability of some artworks aren’t what they are just because they comply with all the security and safety regulations. My problem TH The question is always: what is my position? I want to confront is, furthermore, to do a work — in public space or in a gallery, museum the chaos, the incomprehensibility and the unclarity of the world, or art space — that resists historical facts. How can I do a work that not by bringing peace or quietness, not by working in a chaotic way, transcends history? And how can I do a work — today, in our reali- but by working in the chaos and in the unclarity of the world. I want to ty — that is a-historical? As always, I need grace, and grace, in art, do something that is charged and that, in its density, attains beauty. comes from the strength and courage needed to create something I want to work out of urgency; I want to do too much. The images that despite its precarity, despite the precarity of all things, including I use in a collage are an attempt to confront the violence of the world of life itself. And my challenge as an artist is to give a form of my own, and my own violence. I am part of the world and all the violence of to afrm this form, but also to assert my own terms in art, to work the world is my own violence, all the wounds of the world are my own within the coherence of my very own terms. wounds. All the hate is my own hate. I love Dada and the collages of the Dadaists; I love the beautiful collages of Hannah Höch and the YR For several years now you have been using found images grand Plasto-Dio-Dada-Drama by Johannes Baader. I love John depicting the violent death of anonymous civilians and soldiers in Heartfeld and his work. He said “Use photography as a weapon!” countries at war. More recently, in the series Pixel-Collage (2015–17), I love to do collages, a collage is resistant; it escapes control, even you juxtaposed these found images alongside advertisements from the control of the one who created it. Making a collage always has to women’s fashion magazines that you blur with handmade pixels do with headlessness. There is no other means of expression with made from cut-out papers. Your work responds to this dichotomy such great explosive power. A collage is charged and always remains between the arbitrariness of war and the consciousness of wealth. explosive. I often stand dumbstruck before it, and as an artist, in What about this opposition interests you? particular, it is a matter of enduring this “looking dumb”.

TH Yes, there is a relationship, a relationship between everything, YR In one of the reviews of your inaugural exhibition of the really everything that is part of the world, of our world, our unique and Pixel-Collage series at Galerie Chantal Crousel in 2015, a critic only world. To assert and give this a form is fundamental. I am qualifed as “troubling” the pairing of corpses and the abstract efect convinced that the collage is a powerful, universal form for asserting of the pixels. You are one of a very small number of artists who have this. Doing collages means using existing elements of this world to been addressing the grief and disastrous reality that has defned create a new world. It is fun to make a collage but it is also considered the lives of hundreds of thousands of human beings living in coun- too simple, too fast, not respectable enough or immature. Everyone tries such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria. What is not that troubling? has made a collage at least once. Collages possess the power to involve the Other immediately. I like this capacity of non-exclusion TH I don’t know, because I can’t speak for the Other. As far as I am and I like the fact that collages tend to be seen with suspicion and not concerned, I need to be courageous, I need to act in headlessness,

72 73 I need not remain disobedient, I need to be precise, I need to act artistic assertion with this aesthetic in several projects: Concordia, with generosity, I need to work with love. Since the beginning of my Concordia (2012), Break-Through (2013) Abschlag and Höhere work, I have always wanted to attain the complexity, the beauty, the Gewalt (both 2014), and Nachwirkung (2015). Following Gramsci’s violence, the inseparable world, my world, our world. I always wanted quote, the assertion is: To give form to destruction is difcult, to to glue together, in a collage, the beauty and the violence of the give form to ruin is the problem and to give form to disaster is world I am living in. I remember that at one of my frst exhibitions at the aesthetic challenge. Creating destruction is difcult for me as Shedhalle Zürich someone from the “art world” asked me if I couldn’t an artist because it means that removing things, destroying things, do a work leaving out those images of destroyed human bodies, demolishing things starts in the mind as an “idea”, as the work’s death and destruction, adding that, maybe, it would be more success- guideline, as the artistic logic. It is to understand — not in a literal ful? That’s when I realized once again, as I have been ever since sense, of course, but in terms of an artistic gesture that is able to the beginning of my work, that as an artist you need to do what you change everything. think should be done, what only you think should be done, and what only you think needs to be done. I try to stay true to this. YR I think of your work of the past decade, starting with the 2006 exhibition Superfcial Engagement, as being symbolically charged YR In another body of work you have taken up the topic of the ruin. with rage but also with uninhibited hope in art. This was tangible For the large sculpture In-Between (2015), for example, you built a in a later work, the video Touching Reality (2012), which Okwui collapsing building inside the South London Gallery in London. Enwezor included in Intense Proximity (the 2012 Paris Triennial). Where did this work start? I remember following with my eyes each movement of the hand that was recorded scrolling through an iPad with dozen of images of TH It started with a wonderful quote from Antonio Gramsci: corpses, trusting those fngers leading me through tremendous “Destruction is difcult. It is as difcult as creation.” In its logic, clarity depictions of pain and sorrow. Do you believe in a healing dimension and incommensurability this assertion by Antonio Gramsci points to of the experience of art? a dynamic, a movement. I see it as the in-between status of a journey or trajectory. To me, this quote is about the difculty of positioning TH Yes, there is defnitely this dimension in the experience of art. oneself in the midst of the moving world, and about not separating, I want to try to be precise here: I understand the healing power of art or creating an opposition, between “creation” and “destruction”. in the experience of art, in the dialogue with art or in the confronta- Implied in Gramsci’s quote is the non-corruptible and non-negotiable tion with art as an action. Art is not medication that can be used will to survive — and this is the site of “precariousness”. passively and art is certainly not medication you can buy. Art is a tool or a weapon to confront today’s reality, the time we are living in and YR Gramsci wrote this in prison during the rise of fascism in the world we are part of. If I use the tool of art actively, and if I am Europe. ready to engage in the experience of art, then art can cast a new light on reality and can then change the world. Art can do this because, TH Antonio Gramsci’s quote expresses the contradictions of our as art, it possesses the power of transformation, the transformation of world today and the difculty of confronting its reality. I love this every human being. Being art, art is autonomous. Autonomy is what quote for its simplicity and complexity. The challenge of confronting gives the artwork its beauty and its absoluteness. Also, being art, the world’s reality lies between “creation” and “destruction”. My art is resistance. Art resists facts, political, aesthetical, cultural habits. work In-Between is the afrmation of a precarious dimension, the Being resistance, art is positiveness, movement, intensity, belief, and dimension of the non-guaranteed, the non-dimension of the abyss healing. with its uncertainty. To create destruction is an aesthetic challenge; this is why the aesthetic of In-Between borrows from pictures of YR MIT Press recently published an anthology of your writings destruction — destruction by violence, by war, by accident, by nature, titled Critical Laboratory. In the past two years, in your presentations by structural failures, by corruption, by fatality. I have developed an of the series Pixel-Collage (2015–17), you included vitrines with

74 75 “step-by-step” examples of your method for making collages, source TH It is “doing too much, so that things don’t lie”. The strategy of materials and references that have inspired your decisions. What overwhelming with information is the strategy of having to under- drives this decision to make available your process and sources? stand that everything is important, nothing is unimportant, nothing is less important. The efort of consumption tries to teach us that less TH The point is to say: “You, too, you can think like this!” Therefore is more, but I believe that “less is less and more is more”. And my idea I called these vitrines Showcase for Thoughts. There are three rea- is to refuse rarefcation and the distinction of things as outstanding sons why I do them. First of all, the medium of the vitrine is part of the in order to lend them importance. I want, on the contrary, to over- medium of the exhibition; I want to pay tribute to this. I noticed that whelm, to do too much, too tightly, too densely, too charged, in order looking into a vitrine creates a kind of will to intimacy, a will to care to generate veraciousness and alertness. I love to use printed materi- or pay attention, which I fnd beautiful. I fnd it beautiful because it’s a al, I love books because I need them for my work and I need them resistance to consumption. A vitrine is an invitation to spend time, to live. Books are a necessity. I don’t need books to create my work, to learn more, to get more. I also think it’s a resistance to comments but I am open for encounters of concepts and forms between art and because it often opens up towards the horizon of complexity — with philosophy, literature, poetry. Books encourage me and help me. the elements displayed in the vitrine. I also use the vitrine as a A book never disappoints me. horizontal proposition complementary to the vertical hanging of Pixel-Collage and other works. I always try to give the vitrine its own YR Right, and this relates to your love of philosophy? surrounding space to make it exist as such. I use the vitrine Showcase for Thoughts — my thoughts but also thoughts for the TH Philosophers are sculpting concepts with words as powerful Other — in order to create a space for the beyond, for a possible tools to create new terms in philosophy. As an artist I, too, invent my connection or a non-possible link. own terms with regard to my work. And by insisting on my own terms I can clarify my position. For example, I came up with the concept YR To encourage proximity? of “unshared authorship”. “Unshared authorship” is a statement, an assertion; “unshared” stands for clearness, for a decision, for the TH I want to ofer a space for “thinking” diferently, a space to lay “non-exclusive”, for the opening toward co-existence. “Unshared” out my own thinking, my clarifcation, my writing, my position. The means accepting complexity and implies multiplication. “Unshared Showcase for Thoughts is in no way an introduction to, or an explana- responsibility” allows taking responsibility for what I am not responsi- tion of, my work: it’s an extension of my thoughts as an artist. Earlier, ble for. Furthermore, “unshared authorship” allows authorship even you referred to some comment describing this as “troubling” — fair when I am not the “author” — this is essential, this is what’s new. enough, but not really interesting because the Showcase for Thoughts, on the contrary, wants to underline that art, that a work of art, that my YR It has been over thirty years since you have been exhibiting work, constitutes a “critical corpus”. That is, with, and in, the Show- your work. Could you talk a bit about your background? What were case for Thoughts I want to create a place and time — because you some big infuences early on in your life? When you moved to Paris in need to spend time reading and looking into the vitrine — for ideas 1983, you worked for a year or so in the design collective Grapus. that interest me, notions that matter to me and concepts I consider What were some important lessons you learned there? important. TH I do not know why this myth persists but your question gives YR One of the most liberating aspects of your work for me is the me the opportunity to clarify once again that I never worked at abundance of materials and written language you ofer to the specta- the Grapus studio, because I left after half a day. It’s true that I wanted tor. Your work often includes your statements, printouts of texts to work with them — I wanted to work on an equal level, but they written and books by your favorite authors for us to read and refer- simply did not want me! They, of course, ofered that I be one of ence. What is the origin of this decision? their “executing hands” — which I refused. And such a failure, having just arrived from Switzerland after fnishing my studies at the

76 77 Kunstgewerbeschule Zürich, cannot be turned into anything other these women and men to whom I dedicated an altar, a kiosk, a map, than what it actually was: my own failure! I loved the work of Grapus a monument, a sculpture or a festival is always a decision of my own. and my dream was to be part of their collective, which, by the way, I decided to do it because I am a fan. I am defnitely a fan of Robert was the reason I moved to Paris. Their refusal to accept me as one Walser, Meret Oppenheim, Hannah Arendt, Gilles Deleuze and all the of them, meaning as one of the artistic deciders in their collective, others. It is important to act — and for me as an artist, to give form — taught me a lot. I was quite isolated, without connections or resourc- as a fan. No one can commission a homage, no one can ask me to es in Paris, refusing to go back home, and had to struggle with pay tribute to someone I don’t admire. Being a fan carries some sort what was the central issue for me: How to engage with the world, of resistance within itself. Being a fan allows using absolute thinking. with the time and with reality through my own work, my own vision, I want to confront myself with pure thinking. Politics are not pure. my own utopia? For about a decade I tried to fnd my own way I want to confront thoughts which provoke the activity of thinking, staying true to what I always loved to do: collages. Consequently, the activity of my own thinking. my initial failure of not integrating into the Grapus Collective was the most important learning process. YR In addition to making art, what else provokes your thinking?

YR A springboard? TH Pure philosophy can do this. I love Spinoza and Deleuze for that. Philosophy is interesting because it is not politically oriented TH As someone who wanted to do graphic design “coming from even though it may incorporate politics. In this sense it is not myself”, as I described it at the time, it was the cruel understanding just non-political but trans-political. This means it is a way to think that graphic design is not possible without a commission. I had to the political without being political or becoming political. The emancipate from the limitation, or self-limitation, of my understanding confict between the political and philosophy is irreducible, but there of “graphic design”. Art opened up a welcoming feld for confronting is no confict between art and philosophy. A philosophical notion my ideas and my will to give form. Art opened up a new dimension: such as the Multitude in (Hardt and Negri’s) “Empire” cannot be the history of art. Art pushed me to ask myself the critical and crucial fulflled by any historical fact. There is an irreducible gap between questions: what work of art can I do? What work of art should I do? the fact and the notion. The scene of philosophy is not on the side What work of art makes sense to me? And therefore: what work is to of facts, nor is it on the side of opinions. It lies in this absolute be done? distance, this absolute confict, it is the abyss between the two dimensions. Both philosophy and art are contentious. It is like a war YR You have dedicated your work to artists and authors you of sorts. Philosophers and artists are warriors, not politicians. As admire such as Raymond Carver, Robert Walser, Ingeborg Bachmann, an artist I can, and must, go to war for my work, for my form, for my Emmanuel Bove, Meret Oppenheim, Fernand Léger, Lyubov Popova understanding of art. Doing this is a mission as well as a pleasure. and Otto Freundlich. You have also dedicated monuments to Baruch And I do it in the awareness that I am not, and never was, alone in Spinoza, Gilles Deleuze, Georges Bataille and Antonio Gramsci. doing it. I am drawn to your insistence to remember and celebrate their work and legacy. Could you talk about this aspect of your work and what YR Can we circle back to your love of Meret Oppenheim? I fnd drives you to honor them? her fur-covered cup, saucer, and spoon [Object, Paris, 1936] immensely powerful and wildly subversive. What about her work TH I wanted to pay tribute to these artists, writers, poets and moves you? philosophers, because they are the ones who changed the world. Through their work and life, they cast a new light on the world and TH Loving someone does not need an explanation, but I will try asserted their way to engage with the world. They touch the reality to provide one for you — and for me — regardless, because the notion of our time with hope and engagement. I wanted to point this out of love, the love of art, for art and in art, is important. I must be cate- by giving form to it. The other important thing is that my tribute to all gorically “in favor of” the artist that I love — such decidedness is really

78 79 important to me. Hence, there are artists that I have loved for a long Meret Oppenheim has shown that it’s about one’s own self and time, Meret Oppenheim being one of them. To love an artist means to not about the personal! It’s about one’s own self and not about love everything, even the smallest works, and it means to love every- “circumstances”! It’s about one’s own self and not about the “social”! thing in his or her life. It’s not about criticizing. It’s about saying “yes!”, It’s about one’s own self and not about “identity”! It’s about one’s saying “yes” to everything. It’s about not distancing yourself and own self and not about “tradition”! It’s about one’s own self and not about not neutralizing. That’s what love means in art. That’s what about “culture”. I see this in every work by her, and this clarity makes matters and that’s what helps me. A breakthrough can only happen if me happy, especially nowadays with regard to the debate about there is an absolute decision “in favor of” a work and the artist. This “identity” and the never-ending apolitical “context” discourse. Meret breakthrough that art can generate, it happens when something new, Oppenheim has shown in her work where the true struggle lies: a new form, a new concept is created. It’s only and always about this on the boundless feld of freedom. Freedom with yourself! Meret breakthrough and Meret Oppenheim achieved it with each one of Oppenheim struggles with her own claim to freedom. I see this in her her works, from the most famous ones, such as Le Déjeuner en works, in each one of them. In her work and in her carnets she is in fourrure, to those least known. This is why I love her. I love her for the a state of confict with her dream of freedom. “fur cup” as much as for everything she did before and after that. My decision “in favor of” her wasn’t because of the “fur cup” or YR What do you mean by that? despite the “fur cup”, but rather thanks to the “fur cup”, and thanks to every other work as well. Loving someone serves to cut short the “art TH She describes a dream in her book Poèmes et carnets that’s historical discussion”, which doesn’t address wholeness. The whole- about how her own patriarchal attitude attempts to devalue, to kill, ness of a work of art, the wholeness of being an artist is what matters. her feminine side and how she (as always) failed to encourage or Everything is important. Nothing is unimportant and everything support her masculine side so as to ultimately create something new has its own signifcance, and no one can tell me what should be and whole. I love her openness, her strictness and the signifcance important, or less so, in art! Therefore, a love for someone — my love of it, the signifcance of something being created. Meret Oppenheim for Meret Oppenheim — is not to be discussed. is never sentimental and never narcissistic. Her work is always an act of emancipation, of self-determination, and this is why it is marked YR The “fur cup” is a fascinating work, André Breton called it Le by precision and truth. Many terms come to mind when I think about Déjeuner en fourrure (The Luncheon in Fur) but Oppenheim called it her: ethics, beauty, intensity, confict, strictness, dignity, certainty, simply Object. It is simultaneously alluring and disturbing, exciting hope. All these are terms that I love and they are all positive terms. and eerie. What do you recognize in this work? I love Meret Oppenheim for her resistance. Every one of her works is resistant: resistant in itself. That is an important model for me; Meret TH The “fur cup” is a good example of how a specifc artwork is not Oppenheim demonstrates it in each of her works. A case in point is helped by being isolated for the purpose of developing some theory, Brunnen (Fountain) (1983) on Waisenhausplatz in Bern. I believe that because this work is, as much as really anything Meret Oppenheim this work is one of the very best works of “public art”. I don’t know made, a wonderful piece of art. I love Meret Oppenheim because any other work that so miraculously manages to address the question in her work form is given to what matters in art: being free with what of form anew each day. The question of whether it makes sense comes from within you. This seemingly simple, seemingly easily to give nature — including people and their “acts” — form at all? Meret reached goal — by means of form — is the great challenge in art. Meret Oppenheim made a statement with this piece of work that withstands Oppenheim achieved it with each of her works. I look at her work and augments the question with irony, humor and grace. She was and can always see the moment of breakthrough: when one’s own self truly touched by grace. I love Meret Oppenheim for all of this as well becomes universal. The universal is what matters in art, and you as for what I don’t know. What is exceptional about Meret Oppenheim, can only touch the universal — truth is another word for it — with what is that there are thousands of “reasons” to love her and that only comes from within you. Each and every work by Meret Oppenheim few are loved like that. Could it perhaps be the privilege of those who proves this. Each of her works is a statement, a pure statement! were fully aware that they loved more than they were loved?

80 81 YR To date, you have made nearly 70 works in public space. Thomas Hirschhorn graduated from the Kunstgewerbeschule Zürich You have written about your interest in exhibiting outdoors as a way in 1983. In addition to numerous group exhibitions, solo exhibitions of to reach audiences that not necessarily visit galleries or can aford his work have been organized at the Art Institute of Chicago and the admission ticket of a museum. What has your experience of The Renaissance Society at the University of Chicago (1998); Centre building your work in public spaces contributed to the work you make Georges Pompidou, Paris (2001); Institute of Contemporary Art, in your studio? Boston and the Pinakothek der Moderne, Munich (2005); Museo Tamayo, Mexico City (2008); The Power Plant, Toronto (2011); Palais TH Every experience in art contributes to my will and my efort to de Tokyo, Paris (2014); and the South London Gallery (2015). fulfll my mission as artist. Besides the incredible fun and hyper- Hirschhorn’s work was included in documenta 11 (2002), the 27th complexity which I encounter in doing it, working in public space has São Paulo Biennial (2006) and the 55th Carnegie International, always pointed to the question of audience in a beautiful and cruel Pittsburgh (2008). He is the recipient of numerous awards and prizes, way. My experience with work in public space and the notion of including the Preis für Junge Schweizer Kunst (1999), Marcel public space tells me that it is possible to touch — that is to say, Duchamp Prize (2000), Rolandpreis für Kunst im öfentlichen Raum create — a “non-exclusive public”, whether in a neighborhood in the (2003), Joseph Beuys Prize (2004), and Kurt Schwitters Prize (2011). urban periphery, in a museum or on a street in the center of a city. He has exhibited nearly 70 works in public spaces. Hirschhorn The non-exclusive public always constitutes the essential public to represented Switzerland at the Biennale di Venezia in 2011. He has conquer and reconquer. I learned how important it is to aim my work been living and working in Paris since 1983. at the “non-exclusive audience”, which is the Other, the stranger, the one I don’t know, the one not interested in art, the one struggling Yasmil Raymond is Associate Curator in the Department of Painting with other problems. In public space this is the majority, as opposed and Sculpture at the Museum of Modern Art, New York. From 2009 to in the museum, gallery or art space. to 2015, she served as the curator of Dia Art Foundation. Prior to that, she was associate curator at the Walker Art Center, Minneapolis. YR Meaning that there is a diference? Her exhibitions include, among others: Allora & Calzadilla: Puerto Rican Light (co-curated with Manuel Cirauqui); Carl Andre: Sculpture TH The audience in public space and art institutions is the same — as Place, 1958-2010 (co-curated with Philippe Vergne); Thomas it is merely a diference of proportion, of majority and minority. And Hirschhorn: Gramsci Monument; Jean-Luc Moulène: Opus + One; the point is to never exclude anyone. Therefore, you really need to be and Koo Jeong A: Constellation Congress. Ms. Raymond has been in contact with the “non-exclusive audience”, because that’s the a senior critic at the Graduate Fine Arts Program at the University of hard-core audience. You learn that notions such as equality, justice, Pennsylvania since 2009. truth or universality really do make sense. The “infght” and the confrontation of my work in public space taught me to make sure not Photographs: Jiajia Zhang to exclude anybody even in a museum, gallery or art space. To include every human being, one by one, is the lesson I try to take away from public space and carry over into the museum: non-exclusion through the choice of materials, through the choice of light, through the dimensions, through the work that is done and the way it is done. I learned from working in public space as well as in institutions that non-intimidating work which refuses to play the added-value game can make sense because it is based on non-exclusion.

82 83 « Art, Art and Self » Interview wurde Anfang dieses Jahres in kämpfen. Es geht bereits so weit, dass einzigartigen Welt ist. Dies zu behaup- Yasmil Raymond im Gespräch Form eines E-Mail-Austausches geführt. Sicherheitsaufagen immer wieder die ten und in eine Form zu gießen ist mit Thomas Hirschhorn Form und Ästhetik von Kunstwerken von grundlegender Bedeutung. Ich bin übersetzt aus dem Englischen Yasmil Raymond beeinfussen. Ich frage mich manchmal, überzeugt, dass die Collage dafür eine An welchem Punkt bist du heute in ob die Sauberkeit und Raumangemes- wirkmächtige, universelle Form ist. Erstmals mit der Kunst Thomas deiner Arbeit? Was sind so die Pro- senheit mancher Kunstwerke nicht Collagen machen bedeutet mit vorhan- Hirschhorns in Berührung kam ich im bleme, die dich beschäftigen? der Erfüllung der vielen Sicherheits- denen Elementen dieser Welt eine neue Frühjahr 1999, als ich im Museum aufagen geschuldet ist. Mein Problem Welt erschafen. Es macht Spaß, eine of Contemporary Art in Chicago Swiss Thomas Hirschhorn ist zudem eine Arbeit – im öfentlichen Collage zu machen, sie gilt aber auch Army Knife (1998) sah. Ich stand damals Ich habe weiterhin sehr viel zu tun – Raum oder in einer Galerie, einem als zu simpel, zu füchtig, nicht seriös kurz vor dem Abschluss meines ich beklage mich nicht, denn ich bin Museum oder einem Kunstraum – zu genug oder unreif. Jeder hat schon Bachelors in Kunstgeschichte und glücklich, so viele Projekte für Aus- machen, die sich historischen Fakten mal eine Collage gemacht. Collagen begrif sofort, dass alles, was man stellungen zu haben. Ich habe noch so widersetzt. Wie kann ich eine Arbeit besitzen die Kraft, den Anderen unmittel- mich bis dahin gelehrt hatte, überholt viel, das ich durchsetzen und so viele machen, die über die Geschichte bar einzubeziehen. Ich mag diese war. Hirschhorn gestaltet seine Arbeiten Ideen, die ich in eine Form gießen hinausweist? Und wie kann ich – heute, Kapazität der Nicht-Ausschließung und zügig und verwendet alltägliche muss. Die Arbeit, die ich mache, fordert in unserer Realität – eine Arbeit ich mag es auch, dass Collagen oft Materialien, die zu seinem Marken- mir viel ab; es ist wirklich ein nicht machen, die ahistorisch ist? Wie immer mit Argwohn betrachtet und nicht ernst zeichen geworden sind: Karton, enden wollender Kampf. Mein Problem brauche ich Gnade, und Gnade in der genommen werden. Collagen widerset- Sperrholz, braunes Paketklebeband, bei jeder Arbeit ist: wie kann ich Kunst ergibt sich aus der Kraft und dem zen sich immer noch dem Konsum, Ausschnitte aus Magazinen sowie Stellung beziehen? Wie kann ich dieser Mut, den man benötigt, um etwas zu selbst wenn sie wie alles andere gegen Plastik-, Gold- und Silberfolie. Der seiner Stellung Form verleihen? Und wie erschafen – ungeachtet seiner Präka- den Glamour und die Mode angehen Arbeit innewohnende Ernst kann kann diese Form eine Wahrheit – rität, ungeachtet der Präkarität aller müssen. Beim Collage-Machen will destabilisierend und die Fülle und eine universelle Wahrheit – jenseits Dinge, einschließlich des Lebens. Und ich zusammenfügen, was sich nicht Dichte der Materialien überwältigend ästhetischer, politischer, wirtschaftli- für mich als Künstler besteht die Heraus- zusammenfügen lässt. Ich glaube, wirken. Dennoch ist die ganze Maß- cher Konventionen hervorbringen? forderung darin, meine ganz eigene das ist das Ziel einer Collage und meine losigkeit nie willkürlich oder preziös. Mein Problem bei meiner Arbeit im Form dafür zu fnden und diese Form Aufgabe als Künstler. Ich will die ganze Hirschhorns Werk geht mit seiner öfentlichen Raum ist, wie die Frage zu bekräftigen, aber auch meine Welt in meinen Collagen einfangen; wilden Klarheit gegen intellektuellen « weshalb besteht weiterhin Nicht- eigenen Vorstellungen in der Kunst ich will die Komplexität und den Wider- Snobismus an. « Kunst politisch beständigkeit? » zu beantworten ist. Wie durchzusetzen und innerhalb des spruch der Welt in einer einzigen zu machen bedeutet, Materialien zu ist der Logik der « Nichtbeständigkeit » Zusammenhangs meiner ganz eigenen Collage zum Ausdruck bringen. Nicht wählen, die nicht einschüchtern, eine Form zu verleihen? Und wie Vorstellungen zu arbeiten. die Welt als Ganzes, sondern eine ein Format, das nicht dominiert, eine nehmen die Bedingungen für ihr fragmentierte Welt, die Welt, in der ich Anordnung, die nicht verführt. Kunst prekäres Fortbestehen in absoluter YR Seit etlichen Jahren arbeitest lebe. Ich will die Geschichte jenseits politisch zu machen bedeutet, sich Notwendigkeit und Dringlichkeit du mit vorgefundenen Bildern, die den der historischen Fakten berühren. nicht einer Ideologie zu unterwerfen Form an, im Gegensatz zu einer Art gewaltsamen Tod von namenlosen oder das System zu denunzieren. … von « ephemerer Logik » bezogen Zivilisten und Soldaten in Kriegsländern YR Besteht in deinen Augen eine Es bedeutet, mit aller Energie gegen auf Gegenstände und den Tod. Mein zeigen. In jüngerer Zeit, im Zyklus grundlegende Beziehung zwischen das Prinzip der ‹ Qualität › anzuarbeiten. » Problem ist: wie kann meine Arbeit – Pixel-Collage (2015–2017), hast du Krieg und Wohlstand? Ich habe Hirschhorns Arbeit zwei und jedes Kunstwerk – sich den diese vorgefundenen Bilder mit Jahrzehnte lang verfolgt und bin zahlreichen Sicherheitseinschrän- Werbeanzeigen aus Modemagazinen TH Die Frage ist immer: was ist zu diesem Zweck in Dutzende Städte kungen und -aufagen widersetzen, kombiniert, die du mit handgemachten meine Haltung? Ich will dem Chaos, der gereist, darunter Amsterdam, Berlin, die sich in Museen, Galerien und Pixeln aus ausgeschnittenen Papieren Unbegreifichkeit und Unklarheit der London, Mexico-Stadt, Minnesota, Kunsträumen wie auch im öfentlichen unkenntlich machst. Deine Arbeit Welt gegenübertreten, nicht durch Montreal, New York, Paris, Pittsburgh, Raum unheimlich vermehrt haben? ist eine Reaktion auf die Dichotomie Herbeibringen von Friede und Ruhe, Sao Paolo und St. Petersburg. Im zwischen der Willkür des Krieges und nicht durch chaotisches Arbeiten, Jahr 2013 war ich « Ambassador » YR Das Dilemma der Ware? dem Wohlstandsbewusstsein. Was sondern indem ich im Chaos und in der von Hirschhorns Projekt Gramsci interessiert dich an diesem Gegensatz? Unklarheit der Welt arbeite. Ich will Monument, einer von der Dia Art TH Heutzutage sehe ich mich bei etwas tun, das geladen ist und das in Foundation in Auftrag gegebenen nahezu jeder Ausstellungsgelegenheit TH Ja, es besteht ein Zusammen- seiner Dichte Schönheit erlangt. Ich will Arbeit im öfentlichen Raum, die in der mit der Hypermacht der Sicherheit hang, ein Zusammenhang zwischen aus einer Dringlichkeit heraus arbeiten; Wohnanlage Forest Houses in der konfrontiert und muss für meine eigene allem, wirklich allem, was Teil der Welt, ich will zu viel tun. Die Bilder, die ich Süd-Bronx stattfand. Das nachfolgende Logik und für die Form meiner Arbeit unserer Welt, unserer einzigen und bei einer Collage verwende, sind ein

84 85 Versuch, mich der Gewalt der Welt und schon immer die Schönheit und Gewalt TH Antonio Gramscis Zitat bringt die in Intense Proximity, die Pariser meiner eigenen Gewalt zu stellen. der Welt, in der ich lebe, in einer Collage Widersprüche unserer heutigen Welt Triennale, aufnahm. Ich erinnere mich, Ich bin Teil der Welt und alle Gewalt der zusammenkleben. Ich erinnere mich, und die Schwierigkeit, sich ihrer Realität wie ich mit den Augen jede Bewegung Welt ist meine eigene Gewalt, alle wie bei einer meiner ersten Ausstel- zu stellen, zum Ausdruck. Ich liebe der Hand verfolgte, die in den Auf- Wunden der Welt sind meine eigenen lungen in der Shedhalle Zürich jemand dieses Zitat wegen seiner Einfachheit nahmen durch ein iPad mit Dutzenden Wunden. Aller Hass ist mein eigener vom « Kunstbetrieb » mich fragte, ob und Komplexität. Die Herausforderung Fotos von Leichen scrollte, und den Hass. Ich liebe Dada und die Collagen ich nicht eine Arbeit ohne jene Bilder sich der Realität der Welt zu stellen liegt Fingern vertraute, die mich durch die der Dadaisten; ich liebe die wunder- von verstümmelten Menschenkörpern, zwischen « Erschafung » und « Zer- schrecklichen Darstellungen von schönen Collagen von Hannah Höch Tod und Zerstörung machen könne, störung ». Meine Arbeit In-Between ist Schmerz und Leid führten. Glaubst du und das große Plasto-Dio-Dada-Drama und hinzufügte, dass sie dann vielleicht die Bekräftigung einer prekären an eine heilende Dimension der von Johannes Baader. Ich liebe John erfolgreicher wäre? Da wurde mir Dimension, der Dimension des nicht Kunsterfahrung? Heartfeld und sein Werk. Er sagte: wieder einmal – wie schon seit Beginn Garantierten, der Nicht-Dimension des « Benutze Foto als Wafe! » Ich liebe es, meiner Arbeit – klar, dass du als Künstler Abgrundes mit seiner Unsicherheit. TH Ja, es gibt zweifellos diese Collagen zu machen; eine Collage ist tun musst, was deiner Meinung nach Zerstörung schafen ist eine ästhetische Dimension der Erfahrung von Kunst. resistent; sie entzieht sich der Kontrolle, zu tun ist, was nur nach deiner Meinung Herausforderung; deshalb macht die Ich will versuchen, hier genau zu sein: sogar der Kontrolle dessen, der sie zu tun ist und was nur nach deiner Ästhetik von In-Between Anleihen bei Ich verstehe die heilende Kraft der Kunst schaft. Collagen machen hat immer mit Meinung getan werden muss. Ich Bildern der Zerstörung – Zerstörung in der Erfahrung von Kunst, im Dialog Kopfosigkeit zu tun. Es gibt keine andere versuche dem treu zu bleiben. durch Gewalt, durch Krieg, durch Unfall, mit der Kunst oder in der Konfrontation Ausdrucksform von derartiger Brisanz. durch die Natur, durch Struktur- mit Kunst als eine Handlung. Kunst Eine Collage ist geladen und bleibt YR In einer anderen Werkgruppe versagen, durch Korruption, durch ist keine passiv zu verwendende Medizin immer explosiv. Ich stehe immer wie hast du das Thema der Ruine aufgegrif- Fatalität. Ich habe bei verschiedenen und Kunst ist ganz bestimmt keine vor den Kopf geschlagen davor und fen. Für die raumgroße Skulptur In- Projekten – Concordia, Concordia Medizin, die man kaufen kann. Kunst besonders als Künstler geht es darum, Between (2015) zum Beispiel hast du (2012), Break-Through (2013), Abschlag ist ein Werkzeug oder eine Wafe, um ein solches « Dumm-Aussehen » innerhalb der South London Gallery und Höhere Gewalt (beide 2014) und der Realität von heute, der Welt, in der auszuhalten. in London ein einstürzendes Gebäude Nachwirkung (2015) – mit dieser wir leben und von der wir Teil sind, errichtet. Was war der Ausgangspunkt Ästhetik eine künstlerische Aussage zu begegnen. Wenn ich das Werkzeug YR In einer der Besprechungen für diese Arbeit? entwickelt. Anknüpfend an das Gramsci- der Kunst aktiv einsetze und wenn ich deiner ersten Ausstellung des Zyklus Zitat, besagt die These: Der Zerstörung bereit bin, mich auf die Erfahrung der Pixel-Collage (2015) in der Galerie TH Der Ausgangspunkt ist ein Form geben ist schwierig, der Ruine Kunst einzulassen, dann kann die Kunst Chantal Crousel bezeichnete ein Kritiker wunderbares Zitat von Antonio Gramsci: Form geben ist das Problem und ein neues Licht auf die Realität werfen das Nebeneinander von Leichen und « Zerstörung ist schwierig, ja genauso der Katastrophe Form geben ist die und mithin die Welt verändern. Kunst dem abstrakten Efekt der Pixel als schwierig wie Erschafung. » In ihrer ästhetische Herausforderung. ist dazu in der Lage, weil sie als Kunst « beunruhigend ». Du zählst zu den Logik, Klarheit und Inkommensurabilität Zerstörung schafen ist schwierig für die Kraft der Verwandlung, der Verwand- wenigen Künstlern, die sich mit dem verweist diese Aussage Gramscis auf mich als Künstler, weil es bedeutet, lung eines jeden Menschen besitzt. Leid und der katastrophalen Realität eine Dynamik, eine Bewegung. Ich sehe dass das Entfernen von Sachen, das Kunst ist, eben weil sie Kunst ist, auseinandersetzen, die das Leben dies als Zwischenstatus einer Reise Zerstören von Sachen, das Demolieren autonom. Autonomie ist, was dem Kunst- Hunderttausender von Menschen in oder einer Flugbahn. Für mich bezieht von Sachen als « Idee », als Richtschnur werk ihre Schönheit und ihre Unabding- Ländern wie Afghanistan, Irak und sich das Zitat auf die Schwierigkeit, des Werks, als künstlerische Logik im barkeit verleiht. Kunst ist auch, eben weil Syrien bestimmen. Was ist daran nicht sich inmitten der sich bewegenden Kopf anfängt. Es bedeutet Verstehen – sie Kunst ist, Widerstand. Kunst wider- beunruhigend? Welt zu positionieren, und nicht auf eine nicht in wörtlichem Sinn natürlich, setzt sich Fakten und politischen, Unterscheidung oder die Schafung sondern in Form einer künstlerischen ästhetischen, kulturellen Konventionen. TH Ich weiß es nicht, denn ich kann eines Gegensatzes zwischen Geste, die alles zu verändern vermag. Kunst ist, als Widerstand, Bestimmtheit, nicht für den Anderen sprechen. Ich « Erschafung » und « Zerstörung ». Im Bewegung, Intensität, Glaube und für meinen Teil muss mutig sein, muss Gramsci-Zitat impliziert ist der nicht YR Aus meiner Sicht ist dein Heilung. kopfos handeln, ich muss nicht korrumpierbare und nicht verhandelbare Schafen des vergangenen Jahrzehnts, ungehorsam bleiben, ich muss präzise Überlebenswille – und dies ist der Ort angefangen mit der Ausstellung YR Du schreibst regelmäßig über sein, muss großzügig handeln, muss der « Prekarität ». Superfcial Engagement im Jahr 2006, deinen Prozess und vor kurzem mit Liebe arbeiten. Schon seit Beginn symbolisch mit Wut aber auch mit ist bei der MIT Press unter dem Titel meiner Arbeit wollte ich an die YR Gramsci schrieb dies im Gefäng- ungehemmter Hofnung auf die Kunst Critical Laboratory eine Sammlung Komplexität, die Schönheit, die Gewalt, nis in der Zeit, als der Faschismus in aufgeladen. Spürbar war dies in einer deiner Texte erschienen. In den vergan- die untrennbare Welt, meine Welt, Europa aufkam. späteren Arbeit, dem Video Touching genen zwei Jahren hast du in deine unsere Welt heranreichen. Ich wollte Reality (2012), die Okwui Enwezor 2012 Präsentationen des Zyklus Pixel-Collage

86 87 Vitrinen aufgenommen, in denen neben meines Werkes, sondern eine Literatur, Dichtung. Bücher ermutigen boten natürlich an, mich als einen ihrer Quellenmaterial und Literatur, die Erweiterung meiner Gedanken als mich und helfen mir. Ein Buch ent- « Handwerker » zu beschäftigen, was ich deine Entscheidungen angeregt haben, Künstler. Vorhin erwähntest du einen täuscht mich nie. aber ablehnte. Und an einem solchen deine Methode Schritt für Schritt Kritiker, der dies als « beunruhigend » Versagen kurz nach meiner Ankunft aus veranschaulicht wird. Was bewegt dich bezeichnete – schön und gut aber nicht YR Klar, und das hat mit deiner Liebe der Schweiz, nachdem ich das Studium dazu, deinen Prozess und deine Quellen wirklich interessant, denn Showcase zur Philosophie zu tun? an der Kunstgewerbeschule Zürich zugänglich zu machen? for Thoughts will im Gegenteil unterstrei- abgeschlossen hatte, lässt sich nicht chen, dass Kunst, dass ein Kunstwerk, TH Philosophen formen Ideen mit herumdeuteln: es war ganz schlicht und TH Es geht darum zu sagen: « Auch dass meine Arbeit einen « kritischen Wörtern als mächtigen Werkzeugen zur einfach mein eigenes Unvermögen! Ich du kannst so denken! » Deshalb habe ich Korpus » darstellt. Das heißt dass ich mit Prägung neuer Begrife in der Philo- liebte die Arbeit von Grapus und es diese Vitrinen Showcase for Thoughts und im Showcase for Thoughts für sophie. Als Künstler erfnde auch ich war mein Traum, Teil ihres Kollektivs zu genannt. Es gibt drei Gründe, weshalb Ideen, Vorstellungen und Begrife, die meine eigenen Begrife im Hinblick auf sein, was übrigens der Grund für ich sie verwende. Erstens ist das für mich interessant und wichtig sind, meine Arbeit. Und indem ich auf meinen meinen Umzug nach Paris war. Ihre Medium der Vitrine Teil des Mediums einen Ort und eine Zeit schafen will, eigenen Begrifen bestehe, kann ich Weigerung, mich als einen der ihren, der Ausstellung; dem will ich meinen denn um zu lesen und in die Vitrine zu meine Haltung verdeutlichen. So also als einen der künstlerischen Tribut zollen. Ich stellte fest, dass, wenn schauen braucht man ja Zeit. kam ich zum Beispiel auf den Begrif Entscheider im Kollektiv zu akzeptieren, man in eine Vitrine schaut, dies eine Art der « ungeteilten Urheberschaft ». war für mich sehr lehrreich. Ich war in von Intimitätsbereitschaft oder Bereit- YR Ein ungemein befreiender « Ungeteilte Urheberschaft » ist ein Paris weitgehend isoliert, ohne Bezieh- schaft zur Aufmerksamkeit erzeugt, Aspekt deines Werkes ist für mich die Statement, eine Behauptung; « ungeteilt » ungen oder Mittel, weigerte mich aber, was ich sehr schön fnde. Ich fnde das Überfülle an Materialien und Geschrie- steht für Klarheit, für eine Entscheidung, in die Heimat zurückzukehren, und schön, weil es eine Form von Konsum- benem, die du dem Betrachter anbietest. für das « Nicht-Exklusive », für die rang mit einem für mich zentralen widerstand ist. Eine Vitrine ist eine In deine Arbeit beziehst du immer Öfnung auf die Koexistenz. « Ungeteilt » Problem: wie mich durch meine eigene Einladung zum Verweilen, eine wieder eigene Aussagen, Printouts von bedeutet Komplexität zulassen und Arbeit, meine eigene Vision, meine Einladung, Neues zu lernen und mehr Texten und Bücher deiner Lieblings- impliziert Vervielfältigung. « Ungeteilte eigene Utopie mit der Welt, mit der Zeit mitzubekommen. Sie ist meiner autoren und -autorinnen für uns als Verantwortung » erlaubt es, Verant- und der Realität auseinandersetzen? Meinung nach zudem ein Widerstand Lese- und Quellenmaterial ein. Woher wortung für etwas zu übernehmen, Etwa ein Jahrzehnt lang versuchte ich, gegen Kommentare, weil sie sich oft – kommt diese Entscheidung? wofür ich nicht verantwortlich bin. einen eigenen Weg zu fnden und dabei mit den in ihr ausgestellten Elementen – Zudem erlaubt « ungeteilte Urheber- an dem festzuhalten, was ich schon zum Horizont der Komplexität hin TH Es ist ein « Zuvieltun, damit die schaft » eine Urheberschaft, selbst wenn immer gerne machte: Collagen. Meine öfnet. Ich verwende die Vitrine darüber Dinge nicht lügen ». Die Strategie ich nicht der « Urheber » bin – das ist anfängliche Unfähigkeit, mich in das hinaus als horizontales Angebot der Überwältigung mit Information ist essenziell, das ist das Neue. Grapus-Kollektiv zu integrieren, war ergänzend zur vertikalen Hängung von die Strategie, verstehen zu müssen, somit ein unheimlich wichtiger Lern- Pixel-Collage und anderen Arbeiten. dass alles bedeutsam ist, dass nichts YR Du stellst dein Werk inzwischen prozess. Ich versuche immer, der Vitrine ihren unwichtig oder weniger wichtig ist. seit 30 Jahren aus. Kannst du ein wenig eigenen Umraum zu geben, damit Das Konsumstreben will uns lehren, zu deinem Werdegang sagen? Was YR Ein Sprungbrett? sie als solche existieren kann. Ich dass weniger mehr ist. Ich glaube aber, waren einige maßgebliche Einfüsse in verwende die Vitrine Showcase for dass « weniger weniger und mehr mehr deinen jungen Jahren? Als du 1983 TH Als einer, der Grafkdesign « aus Thoughts – meine Gedanken, aber auch ist ». Und meine Idee ist es, die nach Paris übergesiedelt bist, hast du mir selbst heraus » machen wollte, wie Gedanken für den Anderen –, um Exklusivierung abzulehnen, also das etwa ein Jahr lang beim Designkollektiv ich es damals formulierte, war es die einen Raum für das Jenseits, für eine Herausstellen von Dingen, um ihnen Grapus gearbeitet. Was für lehrreiche schmerzhafte Erkenntnis, dass Grafk- mögliche Beziehung oder eine nicht Bedeutung zu verleihen. Ich will im Erfahrungen hast du dort gemacht? design ohne Auftrag nicht möglich ist. mögliche Verbindung, zu schafen. Gegenteil überwältigen, ich will in zu Ich musste mich von der Begrenztheit dichter, zu geladener Form zu viel tun, TH Ich weiß nicht, warum sich diese oder Selbstbegrenzung meines YR Um zur Nähe zu ermutigen? um Wahrhaftigkeit und Aufmerksamkeit Mär so hartnäckig hält. Deine Frage Verständnisses von « Grafkdesign » zu erzeugen. Ich verwende sehr gerne gibt mir aber die Gelegenheit, einmal befreien. Die Kunst eröfnete einen TH Ich möchte einen Raum für Gedrucktes, ich liebe Bücher, weil mehr klarzustellen, dass ich nie im verlockenden Bereich, um mich darin anderes « Denken » anbieten, einen ich sie für meine Arbeit und zum Leben Grapus-Studio gearbeitet habe, weil ich meinen Ideen und meinem Formwillen Raum, um darin mein eigenes Denken, brauche. Bücher sind unerlässlich. Ich dort nach einem halben Tag schon zu stellen. Die Kunst eröfnete eine meine Präzisierung, mein Schreiben, brauche keine Bücher, um mein Werk wieder weg war. Es stimmt, dass ich mit neue Dimension: die Geschichte der meine Haltung darzulegen. Showcase zu schafen, ich bin aber ofen für ihnen arbeiten wollte – ich wollte auf Kunst. Die Kunst drängte mich, mir die for Thoughts ist keineswegs eine Begegnungen von Ideen und Formen gleicher Ebene mit ihnen arbeiten, sie entscheidenden Fragen zu stellen: Einführung in oder eine Erklärung zwischen Kunst und Philosophie, wollten mich aber einfach nicht! Sie was für künstlerische Arbeit kann ich

88 89 machen? Was für künstlerische Arbeit Fan sein erlaubt absolutes Denken. subversiv. Was an ihrem Werk berührt unwichtig und alles hat seine eigene sollte ich machen? Was für künstleri- Ich will mich reinem Denken stellen. dich? Bedeutung und niemand kann mir sche Arbeit ergibt für mich Sinn? Und Politik ist nicht rein. Ich will mich erzählen, was in der Kunst wichtig oder deshalb: Was für Arbeit ist zu tun? Gedanken stellen, die die Tätigkeit des TH Jemanden lieben bedarf keiner weniger wichtig zu sein hat! Deshalb Denkens, die Tätigkeit meines eigenen Erklärung, aber ich werde trotzdem ist eine Liebe zu jemandem – wie meine YR Du hast deine Arbeiten von Denkens auslösen. für dich – und mich – eine Erklärung zu Liebe zu Meret Oppenheim – nicht dir bewunderten Künstlern und Autoren geben versuchen, denn der Begrif der diskutierbar. wie Raymond Carver, Robert Walser, YR Was löst neben dem Kunst- Liebe, der Liebe der Kunst, der Liebe zur Ingeborg Bachmann, Emmanuel Bove, Machen dein Denken aus? Kunst und in der Kunst, ist wichtig. Ich YR Die « Pelztasse » ist eine faszinie- Meret Oppenheim, Fernand Léger, muss kategorisch « für » den Künstler rende Arbeit. André Breton nannte Ljubow Popowa und Otto Freundlich TH Reine Philosophie ist dazu oder die Künstlerin sein, den oder die sie Le Déjeuner en fourrure (Frühstück gewidmet. Darüber hinaus hast du imstande. Ich liebe Spinoza und Deleuze ich liebe – diese Entschiedenheit ist im Pelz), Oppenheim aber nannte Baruch Spinoza, Gilles Deleuze, dafür. Die Philosophie ist interessant, mir wirklich wichtig. Folglich gibt es sie einfach Objekt. Sie ist zugleich Georges Bataille und Antonio Gramsci weil sie nicht politisch orientiert ist, Künstler, die ich seit langem liebe, und verlockend und verstörend, aufregend Monumente gewidmet. Mich interes- auch wenn sie Politik einschließen kann. Meret Oppenheim ist eine von ihnen. und unheimlich. Was erkennst du in siert deine Beharrlichkeit, an deren In diesem Sinne ist sie nicht nur Einen Künstler zu lieben bedeutet alles dieser Arbeit? Werk und Erbe zu erinnern und dieses unpolitisch, sondern transpolitisch. Sie zu lieben, sogar die geringsten Arbeiten, zu feiern. Könntest du ein wenig über ist mit anderen Worten eine Art und und es bedeutet alles in seinem oder TH Die « Pelztasse » ist ein gutes diesen Aspekt deiner Arbeit sagen Weise, das Politische zu denken, ohne ihrem Leben zu lieben. Es geht nicht Beispiel dafür, wie einem bestimmten und was dich dazu bewegt, Figuren wie politisch zu sein oder zu werden. Der darum, zu kritisieren. Es geht darum, Kunstwerk nicht geholfen ist, wenn es diese zu ehren? Widerspruch zwischen dem Politischen « ja! » zu sagen, « ja » zu allem. Es geht zwecks Entwicklung irgendeiner Theorie und der Philosophie ist irreduzibel, darum, sich nicht zu distanzieren, isoliert wird, denn diese Arbeit ist, TH Ich wollte diesen Künstlern, zwischen Kunst und Philosophie jedoch nicht zu neutralisieren. Das ist es, was wie alles andere, was Meret Oppenheim Schriftstellern, Dichtern und Philo- gibt es keinen Widerspruch. Ein philoso- Liebe in der Kunst bedeutet. Darauf gemacht hat, ein wunderbares Kunst- sophen Anerkennung zollen, denn sie phischer Begrif wie die Menge kommt es an und das ist es, was mir werk. Ich liebe Meret Oppenheim, weil sind es, die die Welt verändert haben. (« Multitude ») in Empire (von Hardt und hilft. Ein Durchbruch kann nur erfolgen, in ihrem Werk dem Form verliehen wird, Durch ihre Arbeit und ihr Leben warfen Negri) kann nicht durch irgendeine wenn es eine uneingeschränkte worauf es in der Kunst ankommt: frei sie ein neues Licht auf die Welt und historische Tatsache erfüllt werden. Entscheidung « zugunsten » eines sein mit dem, was aus dir selbst kommt. machten ihre Art der Auseinander- Zwischen der Tatsache und dem Begrif Werkes und des Künstlers oder der Dieses scheinbar einfache, scheinbar setzung mit der Welt geltend. Sie wirken besteht eine nicht reduzierbare Kluft. Künstlerin gibt. Dieser Durchbruch, den so leicht – über die Form – erreichbare auf die Realität unserer Zeit mit Der Ort der Philosophie ist nicht auf der die Kunst erzielen kann, ergibt sich, Ziel ist die große Herausforderung in der Hofnung und Engagement fort. Ich Seite der Tatsachen, aber auch nicht auf wenn etwas Neues, eine neue Form, Kunst. Meret Oppenheim vollbrachte wollte auf dieses Fortwirken hinweisen, der Seite der Meinungen. Er liegt in ein neues Konzept erzeugt wird. Es geht dies in jeder ihrer Arbeiten. Wenn ich indem ich ihm Form gab. Der andere dieser absoluten Ferne, diesem absolu- immer nur um diesen Durchbruch und ihr Werk betrachte, kann ich immer den wichtige Punkt ist, dass meine ten Widerspruch; er ist der Abgrund Meret Oppenheim erzielte ihn mit jeder Moment des Durchbruchs erkennen, Hommage an all diese Frauen und zwischen den beiden Bereichen. Die einzelnen ihrer Arbeiten, von den den Moment, wenn das eigene Ich Männer, denen ich einen Altar, einen Philosophie und die Kunst sind beide berühmtesten, wie Le Déjeuner en universell wird. Das Universelle, darauf Kiosk, eine Karte, ein Monument, streitbar. Es wie eine Art Krieg. fourrure, bis hin zu den am wenigsten kommt es in der Kunst an, und man kann eine Skulptur oder ein Festival gewid- Philosophen und Künstler sind Krieger, bekannten. Deshalb liebe ich sie. Ich an das Universelle – ein anderes Wort met habe, stets meine eigene nicht Politiker. Als Künstler kann ich, und liebe sie genauso sehr für die dafür ist « Wahrheit » – nur mit dem Entscheidung ist. Ich entschied mich, muss ich, für meine Arbeit, für meine « Pelztasse » wie für alles, was sie davor heranreichen, was aus dir selbst kommt. sie zu machen, weil ich ein Fan bin. Form, für mein Verständnis von Kunst in und danach gemacht hat. Meine Jede einzelne Arbeit Meret Oppenheims Ich bin ein entschiedener Fan von den Krieg ziehen. Das zu tun ist eine Entscheidung « für » sie ergab sich nicht beweist dies. Jede einzelne ihrer Robert Walser, Meret Oppenheim, Aufgabe, aber auch eine Freude. Und ich wegen der « Pelztasse » oder trotz der Arbeiten ist ein Statement, ein reines Hannah Arendt, Gilles Deleuze und tue es im Bewusstsein, dass ich dabei « Pelztasse », sondern vielmehr dank der Statement! Meret Oppenheim hat allen anderen. Es ist wichtig, als Fan nicht alleine bin – und nie war. « Pelztasse » und dank allen übrigen gezeigt, dass es um das eigene Selbst zu handeln und, für mich als Künstler, Arbeiten. Jemanden lieben hilft die geht und nicht um das Persönliche! Form zu geben. Keiner kann eine YR Können wir auf deine Liebe zu « kunsthistorische Diskussion » abzukür- Es geht um das eigene Selbst und nicht Hommage in Auftrag geben, keiner kann Meret Oppenheim zurückkommen? zen, die sich nicht mit Ganzheit abgibt. um « Umstände »! Es geht um das eigene mich bitten, jemandem Anerkennung Ihre pelzbesetzte Tasse, Untertasse und Die Ganzheit eines Kunstwerkes, Selbst und nicht um das « Gesell- zu zollen, den ich nicht bewundere. Im Löfel [Objekt, Paris (1936)] fnde ich die Ganzheit des Künstlerseins, darauf schaftliche »! Es geht um das eigene Fan sein liegt eine Art von Widerstand. ungemein beeindruckend und unerhört kommt es an. Alles ist wichtig. Nichts ist Selbst und nicht um « Identität »! Es geht

90 91 um das eigene Selbst und nicht um Raum. Ich kenne kein anderes Schafen, wiederzuerobernde Publikum. Ich habe Einzelausstellungen: Art Institute of « Tradition »! Es geht um das eigene das auf so wunderbare Weise die Frage gelernt, wie wichtig es ist, mein Werk Chicago und The Renaissance Society Selbst und nicht um « Kultur ». Ich der Form immer wieder neu anzugehen an das « nicht-exklusive » Publikum at the University of Chicago (1998); sehe dies in jeder ihrer Arbeiten und weiß. Die Frage, ob es sinnvoll ist, zu richten, das der Andere, der Fremde Centre Georges Pompidou, Paris (2001); diese Klarheit macht mich glücklich, der Natur – einschließlich der Menschen ist, der, den ich nicht kenne, der nicht Institute of Contemporary Art, Boston gerade auch heute mit Blick auf die und ihres « Tuns » – überhaupt Form an Kunst interessiert ist, der sich mit und Pinakothek der Moderne, München Identitäts-Debatte und den nie enden zu geben. Meret Oppenheim machte mit anderen Problemen herumschlägt. Im (2005); Museo Tamayo, Mexiko-Stadt wollenden, apolitischen « Kontext »- dieser Arbeit ein Statement, das der öfentlichen Raum ist dies, anders als (2008); The Power Plant, Toronto (2011); Diskurs. Meret Oppenheim hat in ihrer Frage standhält und sie mit Ironie, im Museum, der Galerie oder dem Kunst- Palais de Tokyo, Paris (2014); South Arbeit gezeigt, wo der wahre Kampf Humor und Anmut anreichert. Sie war raum, die Mehrheit. London Gallery (2015). Hirschhorn liegt: im grenzenlosen Feld der Freiheit. wahrhaftig von der Gnade berührt. war auf der documenta 11 (2002), der Freiheit mit dir selbst! Meret Oppenheim Ich liebe Meret Oppenheim für all dies YR Das heißt es besteht ein 27. Biennale von São Paulo (2006) und ringt mit ihrem eigenen Anspruch wie auch dafür, was ich nicht weiß. Das Unterschied? der 55. Carnegie International in auf Freiheit. Ich sehe das in ihren Außergewöhnliche an Meret Oppenheim Pittsburgh (2008) vertreten. Er wurde Arbeiten, in jeder einzelnen von ihnen. ist, dass es Tausende « Gründe » gibt TH Das Publikum im öfentlichen vielfach ausgezeichnet, darunter mit In ihrer Arbeit und ihren carnets steht sie sie zu lieben und dass nur wenige auf Raum und in Kunstinstitutionen ist das dem Preis für Junge Schweizer Kunst im Konfikt mit ihrem Traum der Freiheit. diese Weise geliebt werden. Ist dies gleiche – es ist lediglich ein Unterschied (1999), dem Marcel-Duchamp-Preis vielleicht das Privileg derer, die sich voll des Verhältnisses von Mehrheit und (2000), dem Rolandpreis für Kunst im YR Was meinst du damit? und ganz bewusst waren, dass sie mehr Minderheit. Und es geht darum, nie öfentlichen Raum (2003), dem Joseph liebten als geliebt wurden? jemanden auszuschließen. Deshalb ist Beuys Preis (2004) und dem Kurt- TH In ihrem Buch Poèmes et carnets es so wichtig, mit dem « nicht-exklusi- Schwitters-Preis (2011). Er hat knapp beschreibt sie einen Traum, der sich YR Du hast bis heute fast 70 ven » Publikum in Kontakt zu stehen, 70 Werke in öfentlichen Räumen darum dreht, wie ihre eigene patriarcha- Arbeiten im öfentlichen Raum gemacht. denn das ist das Hard-Core-Publikum. ausgestellt. Hirschhorn vertrat 2011 die lische Haltung ihre weibliche Seite Du hast geschrieben, wie dich das Man lernt, dass Begrife wie Gleichheit, Schweiz auf der Biennale von Venedig. abzuwerten, zu töten versucht, und wie Ausstellen im Freien interessiert als Gerechtigkeit, Wahrheit oder Univer- Er lebt und arbeitet seit 1983 in Paris. sie es (wie immer) versäumte, ihre Möglichkeit, ein Publikum zu erreichen, salität wirklich sinnvoll sind. Der Kampf männliche Seite zu bestärken oder zu das nicht unbedingt Galerien besucht und die Konfrontation meiner Arbeit im Yasmil Raymond ist Associate Curator unterstützen, um am Ende etwas Neues oder sich die Eintrittskarte für das öfentlichen Raum hat mich gelehrt, im Department of Painting and und Ganzes zu erschafen. Ich liebe ihre Museum leisten kann. Wie hat deine sicherzugehen, dass man niemanden Sculpture am Museum of Modern Art Ofenheit, ihre Strenge und deren Arbeit in öfentlichen Räumen deine ausschließt, nicht einmal im Museum, in New York. Von 2009 bis 2015 war sie Bedeutung, die Bedeutung, dass etwas Arbeit im Atelier bereichert? in der Galerie oder im Kunstraum. Jeden Kuratorin der Dia Art Foundation, New erschafen wird. Meret Oppenheim ist einzelnen Menschen einzuschließen, York. Davor war sie Associate Curator niemals sentimental und niemals TH Jede Erfahrung in der Kunst das ist die Lehre die ich aus der Arbeit am Walker Art Center in Minneapolis. narzisstisch. Ihre Arbeit ist immer ein bestärkt mich in dem Willen und im öfentlichen Raum zu ziehen und auf Sie hat zahlreiche Ausstellungen Akt der Befreiung, der Selbstbestim- Bemühen, meine Aufgabe als Künstler das Museum zu übertragen versuche: kuratiert, darunter Allora & Calzadilla: mung und deshalb ist sie durch zu erfüllen. Abgesehen von der un- Nicht-Ausschließung durch die Wahl Puerto Rican Light (ko-kuratiert mit Präzision und Wahrheit gekennzeichnet. glaublichen Freude und der Hyper- der Materialien, durch die Wahl des Manuel Cirauqui), Carl Andre: Sculpture Alle möglichen Begrife kommen mir in komplexität, auf die ich dabei stoße, Lichts, durch die Dimensionen, durch as Place, 1958-2010 (ko-kuratiert mit den Sinn, wenn ich an sie denke: Ethik, spielt beim Arbeiten im öfentlichen die Arbeit, die getan wird, und die Art Philippe Vergne), Thomas Hirschhorn: Schönheit, Intensität, Konfikt, Strenge, Raum schon immer auf schöne und Weise, wie sie getan wird. Die Gramsci Monument, Jean-Luc Moulène: Würde, Gewissheit, Hofnung. Das und schmerzliche Weise die Frage des Arbeit im öfentlichen Raum wie auch Opus + One und Koo Jeong A: sind alles Begrife, die ich liebe, und Publikums mit. Meine Erfahrung mit in Institutionen hat mich zudem gelehrt, Constellation Congress. Seit 2009 ist alles positive Begrife. Ich liebe Meret Arbeit im öfentlichen Raum und dem dass nicht einschüchternde Arbeit, Yasmil Raymond zudem Senior Critic Oppenheim für ihren Widerstand. Jede Begrif des öfentlichen Raums lehrt die sich weigert, das Mehrwertspiel zu des Graduate Fine Arts Program der einzelne ihrer Arbeiten ist resistent: mich, dass es möglich ist, ein « nicht- spielen, sinnvoll sein kann, weil sie auf University of Pennsylvania. resistent in sich selbst. Das ist für mich exklusives » Publikum zu erreichen – Nicht-Ausschließung beruht. ein wichtiges Modell; Meret Oppenheim das heißt sich zu schafen –, sei es in Fotografen: Jiajia Zhang beweist es in jeder ihrer Arbeiten. Ein einem am Stadtrand gelegenen Viertel, Thomas Hirschhorn schloss 1983 Paradebeispiel hierfür ist ihr Brunnen in einem Museum oder auf der Straße sein Studium an der Kunstgewerbe- (1983) auf dem Waisen-hausplatz in mitten in einer Stadt. Dieses « nicht- schule Zürich ab. Neben zahlreichen Bern. Ich halte diese Arbeit für eines der exklusive » Publikum ist immer schon Gruppen-ausstellungen widmeten besten Werke der Kunst im öfentlichen das unbedingt zu erobernde und folgende Institutionen seinem Werk

92 93 “Avanzare piano, ma sempre” Stefano Moor in conversazione con Luigi Snozzi

94

« Le projet d’architecture, qui nous permet d’identifer un lieu spécifque, la maison, qui remplit une fonction mais qui va pourtant au-delà, le monument, qui donne une valeur à un lieu banal, l’édifce enfn, qui nous paraît à la fois autonome et lié à un lieu spécifque, vieux de deux mille ans ou actuels, tous viennent au fond de Luigi Snozzi, car c’est lui qui nous a appris à les découvrir et à les comprendre. »

Roger Diener, Le projet, la maison, le monument

Stefano Moor Ci sono alcuni punti sui quali mi piacerebbe far luce. Alla fne degli anni ‘80, sono venuto a studiare al Politecnico di Losanna, dove insegnavi già da tempo. Ricordo che alla tua prima lezione, mi sono detto “ah, fnalmente si può cominciare a ragionare e a capire…”. Hai saputo folgorarmi (e folgorare molti altri studenti) fn dal primo incon- tro. Dopo due anni di studi in cui avevo fatto una fatica tremenda a orientarmi, mi hai aperto un mondo. Da quel momento, prima come tuo studente, poi come tuo assistente, ho incontrato tante personalità con cui sei stato in contatto, e anche se continuo a vederti come qualcuno che è sempre andato per la propria strada, credo di poter valutare quanto queste persone abbiano infuito sul tuo lavoro, sulla tua ricerca. Conosco invece meno gli anni della tua formazione, quelli prima di diventare il “maestro” noto a tutti. I tuoi maestri, se ne hai avuti, chi sono stati?

Luigi Snozzi Credo che una delle persone che ha avuto il maggior peso nella mia formazione sia stato Enrico Filippini: lavorava come redattore per la casa editrice Feltrinelli a Milano, traduceva libri letterari e flosofci dal tedesco, era un intellettuale estremamente rafnato e apprezzato. Un uomo di rara intelligenza che mi ha in qualche modo aperto gli occhi sul mondo. Da giovane ho fatto moltissimi viaggi in Lambretta per l’Italia meridionale insieme a lui, a sua moglie Ruth Schmidhauser e a Peppo Brivio. Un’altra fgura fondamentale è stata certamente quella di Virgilio Gilardoni che, attraverso il Circolo del Cinema da lui fondato, ha promosso un’intensa attività culturale: ricordo tante serate passate con lui a girare per vecchi cinema. Gilardoni era un comunista convinto, un militante vero, odiato da tutti. Un giorno mi ha scritto anche una bellissima lettera, che è entrata a far parte della monografa Electa sul mio lavoro. Questi e altri incontri sono accaduti in gran parte nello studio di Peppo Brivio; all’epoca ero ancora studente al Politecnico di Zurigo

113 e, ogni estate, andavo “a bottega” da lui. È stato Brivio a introdurmi LS Ricordo William Dunkel, forse il miglior professore del ai problemi fondamentali dell’architettura. Nel suo studio lavorava Politecnico in quegli anni, e Hans Hofmann, un docente che ho mol- anche Tita Carloni, che era due anni più avanti di me negli studi. to apprezzato e con cui avevo iniziato il primo progetto di diploma: Carloni era un personaggio eccezionale, dalla cultura vastissima, era una persona molto aperta e sinceramente interessata al lavoro un intellettuale poliedrico che è stato anche scrittore e autore degli studenti. L’insegnamento di entrambi era chiaramente ispirato di commedie dialettali per la radio. Da loro due ho imparato moltis- al Movimento Moderno, ma più incentrato sul linguaggio formale simo; è grazie a loro che sono entrato in contatto con l’architettura che su questioni legate alla città. È a questo lascito che si può ricon- wrightiana, e i miei primi lavori (casa Lucchini a Faido e, prima durre, in termini di espressione, il mio modo di fare architettura fno a ancora, il mio progetto universitario per una torre residenziale) oggi. risentono chiaramente di quest’infuenza. SM Terminati gli studi nel 1957, tornerai al Politecnico di Zurigo SM Il progetto della torre residenziale (che spesso descrivi come nel 1973, questa volta nelle vesti di professore invitato per due anni, una “sfda” all’architettura di Peppo Brivio) risale al tuo settimo senza aver avuto nel frattempo alcun altro contatto con il mondo semestre, verso la fne dei tuoi studi. Mi racconteresti invece la storia dell’insegnamento. Negli anni che separano queste due date, del tuo diploma, inizialmente bocciato e che hai dovuto ripetere? sei diventato un architetto afermato, hai costruito opere signifcative in collaborazione con Livio Vacchini, hai partecipato a importanti LS All’ultimo anno presi 1 in Diritto, il voto più basso che si potesse concorsi suscitando grande interesse… insomma, in quegli anni ottenere. A quei tempi, anche con un solo voto pari a 1, eri costretto sei diventato uno degli architetti più attenti ai temi della città, sempre a rimandare di un anno il progetto di diploma. Durante quell’anno capace di porre la domanda giusta. In quel periodo intravedo un ho frequentato l’atelier dello scultore Emilio Stanzani a Zurigo; andavo momento di svolta per la tua ricerca: da progetti che si relazionano nel giardino di un manicomio lì vicino a scolpire. L’anno successivo ho alla città quasi per contrasto (penso alle proposte per il Politecnico rifatto il progetto di diploma con Rino Tami, che avevo già conosciuto di Losanna e per il centro direzionale di Perugia, o ancora al primo nello studio di Brivio. progetto di concorso per la stazione di Zurigo), passi a progetti che declinano con grande precisione alcuni capisaldi della tua ricerca, SM Racconti spesso di non essere sempre stato convinto di voler come la necessità di porre un limite tra città e campagna e di lavorare studiare architettura… con il vuoto. Oltre alle infuenze che hai menzionato, ce ne sono altre a cui riconosci un particolare valore? Personalità o circostanze LS No, infatti. Avrei voluto studiare pittura, come il mio amico Livio che ti hanno dato l’impulso per diventare il “Luigi Snozzi” che tutti Bernasconi; ma in famiglia eravamo in dodici e come quinto fglio conoscono? (e primo maschio) sentivo il peso di una certa responsabilità. Anche se non lo diceva apertamente, mio padre lo lasciava intendere: LS Credo che dietro a questa svolta ci sia stato Aldo Rossi, e in non voleva che diventassi pittore. Tutti si aspettavano che dessi un particolare il suo libro L’architettura della città. È stato quel libro a far aiuto concreto alla famiglia. Questa vicenda familiare mi ha impedito scattare qualcosa in me, a farmi capire molte cose. Per grande fortu- di seguire la strada della pittura. Ho quindi dovuto scegliere un na di noi architetti ticinesi, la lingua ci ha permesso di avere accesso altro mestiere, che soddisfacesse allo stesso tempo le aspettative a questo libro fn dalla prima edizione del 1966, senza dover aspettare di mio padre e le mie aspirazioni più “artistiche”; è per questa via che per anni una traduzione come è invece toccato agli svizzeri tedeschi. sono arrivato all’architettura. Rossi è stato un personaggio fondamentale per me. Parlo della sua teoria, chiaramente. SM Vorrei sofermarmi ancora sui tuoi anni da studente al Politecnico di Zurigo. Quali sono stati i tuoi professori di atelier? SM Gli anni del tuo insegnamento al Politecnico di Zurigo, tra il Qual è il tuo giudizio sull’insegnamento ricevuto in quegli anni? 1973 e il 1975, coincidono con quelli in cui ci insegnava anche Aldo Rossi. È stata la prima occasione di conoscerlo di persona o eri già

114 115 in contatto con lui? Sempre a proposito di Rossi, mi chiedo se un SM Infatti non ricordo nessuna tua lezione ex cathedra che parlas- lavoro come il rilievo della città di Bellinzona, che hai fatto con Livio se dell’opera di altri architetti o delle loro teorie; ricordo invece la Vacchini e Tita Carloni, risenta delle metodologie di analisi della tua formidabile capacità di ricollegarti ai loro insegnamenti quando città messe in campo da Rossi in quegli anni. C’era una certa inten- si trattava di discutere i progetti degli studenti. Non ci hai mai parlato zionalità nel seguire la pista di Rossi o solo una fortuita convergenza esplicitamente di Palladio, eppure attraverso le sue opere ci hai di pratiche? guidato verso la possibile soluzione di “nostri” problemi progettuali. Questo tuo approccio all’insegnamento sembra marcato da una LS No, prima di incontrarlo a Zurigo non avevo mai conosciuto speciale attenzione per il fare, per l’architettura come mestiere, che Rossi di persona. Certo, quando abbiamo fatto il rilievo di Bellinzona, ho sempre riscontrato anche nella tua vita professionale. Quando conoscevamo il lavoro di Rossi: ci basavamo proprio sul metodo svi- progetti, è come se stessi risolvendo un Sudoku (una delle tue passio- luppato, tra gli altri, da Saverio Muratori, Aldo Rossi e Aldo Aymonino. ni): analizzi il problema con grande meticolosità e entusiasmo. Quel rilievo è stato fatto per il Piano Regolatore di Bellinzona; e ne Ho ricordi molto gioiosi di momenti di progettazione con te, in cui è venuto fuori il peggior Piano Regolatore immaginabile. Ecco, lì ho inseguivamo strenuamente “la” soluzione. preso consapevolezza del limite di questi rilievi: ho capito che c’è bisogno di fare un passo in più. I rilievi sono uno strumento necessa- LS Un progetto senza sorriso non nasce mai. Quando progetti rio, ma non sufciente per realizzare un buon progetto. devi essere contento, non c’è niente da fare. Non puoi progettare col mal di stomaco. Il progetto, qualunque sia, richiede una ricerca SM Nel suo libro, Rossi sviluppa delle teorie, propone dei metodi. lenta, paziente. Ancora oggi, prima di abbordare un progetto, che Ma dove hai appreso ad essere così sensibile al disegno della città? sia una casetta o il Palazzo delle Nazioni, all’inizio mi sento perso. Su questo punto faccio una certa fatica a stabilire un parallelo con Il foglio rimane completamente bianco per giorni, mi sento incapace Rossi o a immaginare altre infuenze dirette. A prescindere dalla di esprimere la minima idea. Niente, zero. È per questo che ogni teoria, tu conosci a fondo il mestiere di architetto. Quando lavori sulla nuovo lavoro mi fa paura; temo di non esserne capace. Nei primi città, non ti limiti mai a un discorso teorico: la disegni, la articoli, giorni non faccio mai nulla, evito anche di pensarci, fnché all’improv- individui sempre le occasioni per fare della buona architettura. Ecco, viso qualcosa scatta. È sempre stato così per me: non ho mai iniziato ritengo che questa sia una diferenza sostanziale fra te e molti altri un lavoro col pensiero “sì, ce la posso fare”. Proprio il contrario. teorici. Ti ho sentito spesso sostenere che spingere troppo la rifes- sione teorica rischia, in alcuni casi, di compromettere il lavoro dell’ar- SM Invece, quando penso al tuo modo di analizzare i progetti chitetto. La teoria ti appartiene (ne sono testimonianza tutti i libri quando insegni, la tua velocità nel centrare il problema è impressio- che hai attorno, tutto quello che conosci) ma ho la sensazione che tu nante… Non conoscevo questo aspetto del foglio bianco: non l’ho non abbia mai voluto porre un accento particolare sulla teoria in sé, mai notato. Forse perché, quando ho l’occasione di abbordare un che il fare architettura ti abbia sempre interessato di più. Non mi nuovo progetto con te, l’assenza di immediate risposte progettuali riferisco solo alla tua esperienza professionale ma anche e soprattut- è compensata dalla tua speciale curiosità e da quella capacità to al tuo lavoro di insegnante. di porre domande spesso inaspettate. L’altro giorno, ad esempio, discutendo di un possibile nuovo progetto per un quartiere residen- LS Assolutamente. Durante i miei corsi non ho mai parlato in ziale, le prime domande che ti sei posto sono state: chi andrà a astratto di teoria ma mi sono sempre e solo basato sulla spiegazione viverci? In quale contesto umano sto operando? È quasi un voler dei miei progetti; non ho mai mostrato progetti di altri architetti ad prendere sempre coscienza del proprio lavoro. Quel tuo famoso invito eccezione di quello di Le Corbusier per l’ospedale di Venezia, un ad avere una coscienza morale prima ancora di essere dei bravi progetto straordinario che, se realizzato, avrebbe davvero potuto dire architetti, lo si ritrova nella tua maniera di fare: prima di iniziare qualcosa di fondamentale. Da quanto ricordo è così, se in alcune a fare qualsiasi cosa, cerchi sempre di capire se vale la pena farlo e, occasioni ho agito diversamente si è certamente trattato di grandi eventualmente, quali temi vadano messi in evidenza. eccezioni.

116 117 LS Sì, è assolutamente fondamentale capire di cosa si tratta, che LS Sì. Come mio padre: era un veterinario e, in qualità di membro cosa si sta facendo, prima ancora di mettersi a disegnare. È un pro- di una curiosa commissione addetta a verifcare l’autenticità dei cesso che spesso richiede tempi lunghi perché, una volta superata miracoli di Lourdes, faceva il giro di tutto il Canton Ticino per tenere l’impotenza iniziale di cui parlavo prima, è facile inciampare una conferenza che conosco a memoria, “Lourdes e la medicina”. di nuovo e fermarsi più volte nel corso di un progetto. E per fortuna: Io dovevo accompagnarlo (allora avevo sette o otto anni) e proprio è quando inciampi che hai la possibilità di fare un passo avanti. non lo sopportavo: mentre facevo scorrere le diapositive, ero costret- Con Vacchini accadeva spesso. Se dopo qualche tentativo ci rendeva- to a sentire mio padre ripetere per l’ennesima volta la stessa mo conto di essere in stallo, mollavamo tutto e andavamo al bar conferenza, con le stesse parole e le stesse freddure. Cominciava a bere champagne. È importante darsi il tempo di trovare la risposta con “Lourdes è bagnata dal fume Gave, che comincia con la G come giusta. In questo senso, ho sempre soferto nel collaborare con Gesù e fnisce con ave come Ave Maria”… Che vergogna, volevo persone che, confrontate a queste naturali battute d’arresto, tirano nascondermi sotto il tavolo, letteralmente sotto il tavolo! Ecco, a me fuori decine di soluzioni alternative, una dietro l’altra, come se le piacciono le persone così. Oggi, in questo ripetersi senza remore pescassero da un magazzino delle idee. riconosco la vera forza di mio padre. Ora ti racconto un altro episodio su quest’aspetto del suo carattere: all’epoca c’era una malattia dei SM Questa insoferenza verso chi ha sempre e subito la risposta pesci (non ricordo più quale fosse il nome) che era trasmissibile giusta può estendersi a un’idea più generale di efcienza contem- anche all’uomo e mio padre doveva tenere ciclicamente delle confe- poranea? È stata recentemente pubblicata la trascrizione di una tua renze per sensibilizzare i pescatori ai rischi della malattia e alle conversazione con il flosofo Fabio Merlini, intitolata L’architettura accortezze necessarie per non contrarla. A un certo punto, durante inefciente. Stai sostenendo che quest’idea di super-efcienza sia una di queste conferenze ripetute fno allo sfnimento, iniziano pericolosa? a lanciargli dei pomodori. Mio padre, colpito dal primo pomodoro, continua imperterrito “e la trota…”, ed ecco che arriva il secondo LS È terribile. Sai, forse il mio più grande amico di tutti i tempi pomodoro! Quando ha fnito era rosso di pomodori, eppure non è stato un pescatore. Passava per lo scemo del villaggio ma era un ha mai fatto una piega: si beccava un pomodoro, se lo asciugava di pescatore provetto. Ecco, quando ero con lui (faccio quasi fatica dosso e continuava. Mio padre non mollava di un millimetro, mai. a parlarne), sentivo che avremmo potuto trascorrere mesi assieme. Io amo la gente semplice, che sa ripetere il suo lavoro in modo instan- Ero attratto dalla sua grande costanza. Da pescatore, non si è mai cabile, giorno dopo giorno; questa è gente che ogni giorno cambia, accontentato di pescare e basta: ogni giorno cercava di correggere perché ogni giorno accresce la propria conoscenza di una quantità quello che credeva di non aver fatto abbastanza bene il giorno prima. infnitesimale, invisibile ai più. La forza dell’uomo sta proprio qui: Ho conosciuto un’altra persona così: era il cuoco di un ristorante nell’avanzare piano, ma sempre. I passi devono essere corti. che frequentavo e preparava solo fesa di vitello con contorno di spaghetti. Gli spaghetti erano sempre stracotti, ma la fesa di vitello SM L’efcienza, in questo caso, si traduce nel tentare di conoscere era la migliore del mondo; giuro, per cinquant’anni ha fatto solo a fondo un argomento, nell’evitare la superfcialità: non ha nulla a che quello. Lui era un tipo così: per cinquant’anni un solo menù, spaghetti fare con una spasmodica ricerca di varietà. e fesa di vitello, e ogni giorno lo faceva con lo stesso amore e lo stesso impegno, ma con l’idea di migliorarlo. È questa la gente che LS No, infatti. L’efcienza sta proprio nell’avanzare millimetro dopo piace a me, gente che continua e non molla, non molla, non molla. millimetro. Un millimetro al giorno è già troppo. Chi avanza in questo Mi piace la ripetizione. modo mi è simpatico: mi sono sempre circondato di amici così.

SM C’è anche il tuo aforisma sulla ripetizione: “la varietà è il prelu- SM Quest’aspirazione a una ricerca paziente non si è mai nutrita di dio alla monotonia, se vuoi evitarla ripeti il tuo elemento”. troppe parole: ricordo che spesso ci invitavi a parlare meno, a con- centrarci sul lavoro. Invece, contrariamente alle parole, mi sembra che il disegno rivesta un ruolo di primissimo piano nella tua ricerca.

118 119 Quando sono entrato in contatto per la prima volta con il tuo lavoro SM La tua coscienza civile, il tuo impegno politico si esprimono attraverso la monografa dell’Electa (andavo ancora al liceo), sono in un inesauribile desiderio di lavorare sulla città, di realizzare il stato colpito, prima ancora che dal progetto in sé, dal modo in cui potenziale urbano di ogni singolo intervento, anche la più misera è disegnata casa Kalman. Mi ha sempre molto impressionato questa casetta di speculazione. Questo atteggiamento presuppone una tua attenzione al disegno. Un’attenzione che nel corso degli anni si è costante attenzione all’evoluzione della città e un forte radicamento tradotta in un sistema di rappresentazione sistematizzato, dalla nella condizione presente. Qual è la tua visione della contemporanei- dimensione del tratto alla scala del tratteggio. Qualche tempo fa, tà? Qualche tempo fa ti ho sentito criticare duramente la condizione rovistando tra le mie carte, ho ritrovato una tabella che utilizzavo nel dell’architettura contemporanea. Sei ancora così negativo? tuo ufcio, nella quale è codifcato con precisione anche ogni colore del foglio adesivo da impiegare… Volevi che i disegni fossero fatti LS Assolutamente sì. Apprezzo chi s’impegna, ci sono senz’altro nella maniera più semplice e chiara possibile. Disegnare è un atto alcuni bravi architetti che producono singoli edifci di una certa che hai sempre ritenuto fondamentale per il progetto, non è vero? qualità e non dico che tutto quello che si fa oggi sia da buttare. Ma non vedo spiragli per dare una scossa alle cose, per fare davvero un LS Sempre. Il disegno mi ha sempre interessato come momento salto in avanti. Vedo che si tira avanti, che si producono singoli ele- di sintesi, un momento in cui i segni, ridotti all’essenziale, hanno tutti menti spesso anche interessanti, ma che nell’insieme non riescono un signifcato ben defnito. Mai tirare una linea con leggerezza. Già a provocare quello che mi aspetto. Non mi viene in mente nessun nell’approntare la planimetria generale, il disegno può farsi strumento progetto visto negli ultimi anni che mi sia parso capace di sollevare del progetto perché consente di esplicitare i riferimenti fondamentali questioni fondamentali. Sono tutti brillanti, ed essere brillante è per del luogo. Se non metti in evidenza questi elementi, non puoi capire il me un punto negativo, non certo positivo: meglio essere rozzi. Ma contesto. non saprei come uscire da questa situazione. Confesso di avere una certa difcoltà a dirti come vedo la situazione attuale, i suoi possibili SM Un progetto che, a mio parere, esprime molto bene questa tua sviluppi. Non trovo nulla che esprima una qualche fondamentale abilità nel dare forma al progetto e nel comunicare con amore il tuo novità, e anche i lavori di qualità che vedo si limitano a ripetere quello lavoro è quello per Braunschweig, che abbiamo esposto due anni fa che è già stato fatto. a Como. Lo splendido modello che avevi realizzato nel 1979 occupava il centro di una delle due sale circolari d’angolo del Novocomum SM Quindi non ti riferisci tanto alla mancanza di edifci di qualità di Terragni; a fargli da sfondo, lungo la parete curva, c’era la giganto- quanto alla loro incapacità di innescare una rifessione critica sulla grafa della tua sezione per Braunschweig che, con pochi segni pre- condizione della città contemporanea. In realtà alcuni tuoi ex studen- cisi, sintetizzava l’idea di fondo del progetto. Oltre a questa sensibilità ti, oggi architetti afermati, hanno tentato questa strada. Sei al corren- per il disegno, Braunschweig (con l’idea di fare del vuoto lasciato te di questi loro sforzi? dalla distruzione della città un monumento internazionale in memoria della Seconda Guerra Mondiale) getta luce su altri temi classici del LS No, ma vedo quello che hanno fatto, i quartieri che hanno tuo lavoro: il vuoto come momento fondamentale della costruzione costruito e mi dico che sono pezzi di città che si sarebbero potuti fare della città, ma soprattutto la coscienza civile del fare architettura, la cinquant’anni fa: non ci trovo nulla di innovativo. chiarezza politica del tuo operato. SM C’è una tipologia di città, la città difusa, che hai sempre rifutato LS Per me l’architetto deve essere, prima di tutto, un intellettuale ma verso la quale oggi senti una mancanza di attenzione critica. Nel critico. Il suo compito è resistere a ogni forma di potere, a tutto tuo lavoro d’architetto, però, hai occasionalmente accettato di interve- ciò che accade e che non condivide. A proposito di Braunschweig, nire all’interno di questo tipo di città che detesti e, quando lo hai fatto, emblema della distruzione che una società può causare in tempo hai cercato di dare delle risposte. È un aspetto del tuo operare che di guerra, oggi mi domando: che cos’è invece stata capace di produr- mi interessa molto. Dunque, per te, prestarsi a questi interventi non è re la nostra società in tempo di pace? un male assoluto: il problema nasce quando ci si abbandona all’abitu-

120 121 dine, rinunciando a un atteggiamento critico verso il contesto in cui SM Però un lavoro come quello di Monte Carasso lo rifaresti… si opera. LS Sì, in efetti si arriva a quest’apparente contraddizione. Quel LS Sì, non è possibile dedicarsi solo a certi temi. In alcuni casi, lavoro lo rifarei, ma c’è una giustifcazione: Monte Carasso non fa tentare qualcosa di diverso può essere l’occasione per porre delle parte di questo insulso proliferare della città. È un posto che aveva domande, per sollecitare una reazione all’interno di situazioni delle qualità che non si trovano altrove. Non era un granché di paese, di grande banalità tentando di dar loro un valore urbano. Il mio fne ma possedeva tutti gli elementi che facevano venir voglia di farlo è sempre stato la città, anche quando progetto una casettina. Quando diventare un luogo con una chiara identità; alcuni paesi che puoi ho progettato casa Kalman, sono partito dal presupposto che la casa vedere oggi in Svizzera, invece, avresti voglia di raderli al suolo, altro unifamiliare non è un elemento urbano, il che mi ha portato subito che migliorarli. a confrontarmi con la contraddizione di un tema che mi interessava ma che, al contempo, non sentivo mio. SM Dunque esistono dei casi, come quello di Monte Carasso, che meritano un atteggiamento diverso. Sei andato molto vicino a creare SM Un tema fondamentale al quale hai sempre riservato grande un secondo Monte Carasso con quel bellissimo progetto in Italia, a attenzione nei tuoi lavori è quello del limite: sembra che tu abbia Rosà, dove proponevi di preservare la torre piezometrica. Lì un poten- sempre voglia di fssarne uno. Negli ultimi anni, però, il tuo punto di ziale ci sarebbe stato. Quindi non escludi occasioni del genere? vista sull’argomento è cambiato (penso ad alcune discussioni afron- tate nelle ultime edizioni del Seminario internazionale di Monte LS No, assolutamente. Quando hanno tirato giù quella torre dell’ac- Carasso). Ho la sensazione che il tema del contenimento della città qua, devo ammettere che è stato uno dei colpi più duri della mia e altri temi correlati, come la necessità di defnire dei vuoti, che vita. Ne ho soferto almeno per un mese. È stato come se mi avessero sicuramente continui ad approvare perché hanno rappresentato dei tolto un pezzo di me stesso: quando ho visto la torre demolita ho capisaldi del tuo pensiero, non ti bastino più: è come se intravedessi pensato “non è possibile”… la possibilità di andare oltre, o addirittura di rovesciare le carte. Mi ha molto sorpreso sentirti sostenere che questa città difusa, che tu SM Ecco, in quel caso avresti probabilmente rifatto un altro Monte odi profondamente, vada lasciata libera di espandersi senza controllo; Carasso, però ritieni che oggi ci siano casi in cui bisogna andare oltre. che dopo i fallimentari tentativi di contenerla, controllarla, oggi ha Non sai ancora di preciso come, ma ne intuisci la necessità. Uno dei più senso conservare le energie per tentare di mettere in evidenza progetti in cui sei riuscito ad andare davvero a fondo nella rifessione alcuni elementi che (grazie alla loro intrinseca potenza) possono sulla città è la Deltametropoli d’Olanda. Ma in quel caso avevi il van- ancora dare un contributo fondamentale allo spazio urbano. Questa taggio di esserti posto, ancora una volta, la domanda giusta: quella considerazione, che potrebbe rovesciare alcune tue salde convinzio- di se e come ci si possa orientare all’interno della metropoli moderna ni, fa parte di una tua nuova visione sulla città? come in una città tradizionale. Sei riuscito a spingere la rifessione fno a un certo grado di radicalità, a porre questioni fondamentali LS Sì, è un’idea che è al centro dei miei pensieri ultimamente: senza doverti per forza occupare di tutti gli aspetti. Quindi secondo te quando mi chiedo cosa fare per uscire dall’infelice situazione di cui bisognerebbe lavorare su una scala diversa, metropolitana? Con gesti parlavo prima, penso proprio a questo. Non c’è più alcun bisogno di talmente potenti da innescare il cambiamento di cui parli? afannarsi a correggere i casini che abbiamo combinato. Invece di continuare a perdersi in piccoli interventi, bisognerebbe avere la forza LS Credo di sì. D’altra parte tengo a sottolineare come, nel caso di di immaginare una nuova città, di crearne un’altra all’interno di quella Deltametropoli, tutto ciò sia stato abbordato da un punto di vista molto che c’è già, scommettendo su elementi fondamentali della struttura pratico. Ho lavorato a quel progetto pensando alla possibilità di vede- del territorio. Ci sarebbe bisogno di ribaltare un sacco di cose, un’in- re, di conoscere e di riconoscere tutta la metropoli olandese atterran- tera generazione di pensiero; fnché non nascerà un’idea capace di do con un aereo. La metropoli “diventa” un cerchio, la vedi. Quando farlo, a furia di fare casettine non ne verremo fuori. atterri, sei all’interno di quel cerchio ma hai ancora la possibilità di

122 123 leggere ogni città che compone questa metropoli grazie alle torri che la brutta espressione) si sottomette al tessuto esistente. Mi dirai: “è ne segnalano la presenza; dall’interno di questo cerchio vedi un Venezia, funziona”, non è il tipo di città difusa di cui stiamo parlando. alternarsi continuo di mare e città. Hai la concreta possibilità di ab- Si potrebbe leggere una certa contraddizione tra il tuo elogiare la bracciare con lo sguardo e quindi di comprendere tutta la metropoli in sensibilità di Le Corbusier in Argentina e a Venezia e il tuo desiderio pochi secondi. Era questo l’aspetto che mi interessava. Questo proget- di radicalità, più vicino ai suoi “progetti-bomba” per Rio de Janeiro o to supera la dimensione abituale di lettura di una città: anzi, l’idea per il “Plan Obus” di Algeri. Hai l’impressione che oggi ci sia il bisogno tradizionale di dimensione non c’entra proprio più niente. Ritengo che di tornare a mettere delle “bombe”, a inventare progetti che sappiano rigettare questo progetto sia stato un’idiozia: secondo me, aveva le anche mettersi in contrasto con il contesto, se necessario? potenzialità per diventare “IL” progetto capace di dare fnalmente un senso a una metropoli europea, senza dover buttar giù niente. LS Proprio così. Bombe che non distruggono. Questo secondo me è essenziale: non distruggere niente, ma mettere bombe. SM È per questo che accettavi il difetto di quella famosa città difusa: il tuo interesse in quel caso prescindeva dalla scala, da come si compone il singolo brano di una città, per rivolgersi a una scala più ampia. La mia intuizione è che tu sia alla ricerca di qualcosa di tal- mente potente da lasciare in secondo piano i frammenti, le casette…

LS Proprio così. La potenza di questi temi rende inutile continuare a coltivare i propri orticelli. Bisogna arrivare a toccare questioni fondamentali.

SM: Questo è uno scatto che richiede una lucidità estrema: dietro l’angolo, c’è il rischio di tornare a progetti molto utopici, alle mega- strutture… E poi si tratta di un atteggiamento che hai sperimentato nella prima fase della tua carriera, e che hai poi abbandonato. O si tratta di qualcosa di diverso?

LS Penso di sì. Ma in realtà, non saprei risponderti con precisione perché, come dicevo prima, è qualcosa su cui continuo a rifettere ogni giorno, ma sono ancora lontano dall’aver trovato una risposta defnitiva. Sono pensieri che sorgono, ma ci vorrà ancora del tempo prima di capire come possano concretizzarsi. Forse alla mia età non avrò il tempo per fnire questa rifessione.

SM Trovo questi ultimi pensieri profondamente interessanti. Se ricordo bene, hai due cavalli di battaglia tra i progetti di Le Corbusier: il primo è la casa Curutchet in Argentina, che s’inserisce con grande precisione e sensibilità nel contesto tanto da averti fatto esclamare, quando l’hai vista per la prima volta, “questa è una mia casa!”; l’altro, al quale hai già accennato prima, è il progetto di concorso per l’ospe- dale di Venezia. Nello spiegare questo secondo progetto, tu dimostri l’abilità, la sensibilità con cui Le Corbusier legge la città e (perdonami

124 125 Luigi Snozzi “Proceeding slowly, yet steadily” of rare intelligence who opened my Stefano Moor in conversation with eyes to the world. In my youth, I went Nato a Mendrisio nel 1932, è fra i più noti architetti svizzeri. Dopo Luigi Snozzi on countless trips with him, his wife essersi diplomato al Politecnico di Zurigo nel 1957, lavora negli studi Ruth Schmidhauser and Peppo Brivio, di Peppo Brivio e di Rino Tami prima di aprire il proprio studio « Le projet d’architecture, qui nous driving a Lambretta across southern a Locarno nel 1958. Dal 1962 al 1968 lavora in associazione con Livio permet d’identifer un lieu spécifque, Italy. Another key fgure was Virgilio la maison, qui remplit une fonction mais Gilardoni, who promoted an intense Vacchini. Parallelamente al lavoro come architetto inizia un’intensa qui va pourtant au-delà, le monument, cultural activity through the Cinema attività didattica come professore invitato al Politecnico di Zurigo qui donne une valeur à un lieu banal, Club that he founded. Gilardoni was (1973-75), poi alla Scuola di architettura dell’Università di Ginevra l’édifce enfn, qui nous paraît à la fois a staunch communist, a true activist, (1981) e al Politecnico di Losanna (1980-82 e 1984-85), dove diventa autonome et lié à un lieu spécifque, hated by many. He once wrote me a vieux de deux mille ans ou actuels, tous beautiful letter, which is included in my professore ordinario nel 1985. In seguito a questa nomina apre un viennent au fond de Luigi Snozzi, car Electa monograph. secondo studio a Losanna nel 1988. A partire dal 1998 è professore c’est lui qui nous a appris à les découvrir Most of these encounters took place invitato in Italia nelle Facoltà di architettura di Trieste e di Alghero. et à les comprendre. » in Peppo Brivio’s studio. Back then I was Vincitore di numerosi concorsi, riceve nel 1993 il Premio “Prince of still studying at the Polytechnic Institute Roger Diener, Le projet, la maison, le of Zurich and every summer I went Wales” della Harvard University per il suo lavoro nel comune di Monte monument to his studio “to learn the trade”. Brivio Carasso. was the one who introduced me to the Stefano Moor fundamental issues of architecture. Tita Stefano Moor I would like to go over a few points Carloni, who was two years ahead of me with you. In the late 1980s, I came as a in his studies, also worked in his studio. Nato a Lugano nel 1968, si diploma nel 1993 al Politecnico di student to the Polytechnic Institute Carloni was an exceptional fgure, Losanna con Luigi Snozzi, con il quale avvia una lunga collaborazione of Lausanne, where you were teaching. extremely well read, a versatile intel- didattica presso lo stesso istituto di Losanna e nei seminari interna- I remember that in my frst class with lectual who also wrote radio comedies zionali di progettazione di Monte Carasso, che continua tuttora. you, I thought, “Finally, now we can start in dialect. Brivio and Carloni taught me thinking and understanding…” To me a lot: they introduced me to Wright’s Parallelamente inizia un’attività professionale indipendente, senza tra- (and to many other students), that frst architecture, and this infuence is quite scurare numerose altre esperienze didattiche quale critico esterno. encounter was a revelation. My frst two obvious in my early works (the Lucchini I suoi lavori sono stati presentati in mostre personali e collettive e ha years of studies had been quite difcult house in Faido and, even earlier, my uni- tenuto conferenze in Svizzera e all’estero. Dal 2014 è docente presso and disorienting, then you opened versity project for a residential tower). up a whole world to me. From that day, l’HEPIA di Ginevra. frst as your student and then as your SM The residential tower project assistant, I met many personalities with (which you often describe as a “chal- Fotografa: Jeremy Ayer whom you were in touch, and although lenge” to Peppo Brivio’s architecture) I have always seen you as somewhat dates from your seventh semester, of a lone rider, I have a fairly good idea toward the end of your studies. Would of the extent of their impact on your you tell me the story of your diploma work and research. I don’t know so well project, the one that was initially reject- your formative years, those before you ed and which you had to do over? became the “Master” we all know. Who were your masters, if you had any? LS In my last year, I got a “1” in Jurisprudence, the lowest grade one Luigi Snozzi can get. And at the time, getting a “1” I suppose that one of the most meant you had to postpone your diploma infuential personalities I met during project. During that year I trained at my training was Enrico Filippini: he Emilio Stanzani’s sculpture workshop worked as an editor for the publishing in Zurich: I would go to the garden of a house Feltrinelli in Milan, translated nearby psychiatric institution and sculpt. literary and philosophical works from The next year, I resumed my diploma German, and was a sophisticated project under the tutorship of Rino Tami, and highly regarded intellectual. A man whom I had already met in Brivio’s studio.

126 127 SM You often say that you didn’t and always capable of asking the right used was based on the theories of SM Indeed I do not recall you always plan to study architecture… question. In those years, I perceive Saverio Muratori, Aldo Rossi and Aldo mentioning any other architects or their a turning point in your research: while Aymonino among others. The survey theories in your frontal lectures; what LS That’s right. I wanted to be- your earlier projects approached the was supposed to be used in the city’s I do recall is your impressive capacity to come a painter, like my friend Livio city almost by contrast (I am thinking urban development plan, and the draw on their teachings when discuss- Bernasconi; but there were twelve of your proposals for the Polytechnic development plan that came out of it ing the projects of your students. You of us in the family and, as the ffth Institute of Lausanne, for the was as bad as it could be. This is where never explicitly talked about Palladio, yet son (and frst male born), I carried the Administrative Centre in Perugia, or I understood that these surveys had through his works you guided us toward weight of responsibility. My father for Zurich’s train station), your later their limits and that we needed to the possible solution of “our own” wouldn’t openly say it, but the message projects elaborate with great accuracy go further that that. Surveys are neces- planning problems. Your approach to was clear: he didn’t want me to become on the cornerstones of your research, sary, but not sufcient to carry out teaching seems to stress the practical a painter. Everyone expected me to e.g., the necessity to draw the line a good project. aspect, architecture as a trade, just contribute to supporting the family. between city and countryside and as you do in your professional activity as This family history prevented me from to work with empty spaces. wBeside SM Rossi’s book develops theories an architect. You work on a project as choosing that path. So I had to fnd the infuences you already mentioned, and methods. But where did you learn if you were solving a sudoku (one of a diferent trade which would satisfy are there others that you wish to your sensitivity to urban design? On this your favourite hobbies): you put all your both my father’s expectations and acknowledge? Other personalities point I have trouble drawing a parallel passion and attention to detail in solving my more “artistic” ambitions: and this is or circumstances that made of you between you and Rossi or any other the problem. I have very happy memo- how I came to architecture. “the” Luigi Snozzi we all know? direct infuence. Leaving theory aside, ries of working on projects with you, you have a deep understanding of your strenuously searching for “the” solution. SM Let’s dwell some more on your LS I think the person behind that trade. When you work on the theme of years as a student at the Polytechnic turning point was Aldo Rossi, especially the city, you never stop with the theory: LS You cannot create a project with- Institute of Zurich. Who were your his book L’architettura della città. That you design and articulate it, always in out a smile on your lips. You need to be teachers? How do you assess the train- book really clicked with me, I learned search of the right opportunity to do happy, there is no other way. You cannot ing you received during those years? a lot from it. My fellow Swiss Italian some good architecture. This is where work on a project with a stomach ache. architects and I were lucky to be able to I fnd a substantial diference between The project, whatever its nature, LS I remember William Dunkel, read it in Italian as soon as it came out you and many other theoreticians. requires a great deal of slow and patient maybe the best teacher in the institute in 1966, while our Swiss German col- I often heard you claim that an excess research. Even today, before starting at the time, and Hans Hofmann, whom leagues had to wait for the translation of theory may, in some cases, compro- a new project, be it a small house or the I truly appreciated and with whom for years. Rossi has been very important mise the architect’s work. Theory does Palace of Nations, I feel lost. The blank I worked on my frst diploma project: for me. I mean his theory, of course. belong in your work (as testifed by all sheet stares back at me for days on he was a very open person, genuinely the books that surround you and by end, and I feel incapable of expressing interested in the work of his students. SM In the years when you were everything you know), but I feel that you any idea. Nothing. Zip. This is why every Both teachers clearly came from the teaching at the Polytechnic Institute never really put the accent on theory new project scares me; I’m afraid I won’t Modernist Movement, but with a focus of Zurich, between 1973 and 1975, as such, that you are always more be up to the task. For the frst days I do on formal language rather than on urban Aldo Rossi was teaching there, too. Is interested in the practical side. Not only nothing, I try to not even think about issues. In terms of expression, their that when you personally met him for in your professional experience as an it, until suddenly something clicks. It’s legacy is still recognisable in my work the frst time or were you two already architect, but also and especially in always been like this, for me: I never up to this day. in touch? And talking of Rossi, I wonder your work as a teacher. started a project thinking “Yes, I can do if the survey of the city of Bellinzona it”. Quite the opposite. SM You graduated in 1957 and you made with Livio Vacchini and Tita LS Absolutely. In my classes I never returned to the Polytechnic Institute of Carloni is in any way indebted to the spoke of theories in the abstract: I always SM And yet, if I think of how you Zurich in 1973 for two years, this time methodologies for urban analysis that and exclusively relied on the explanation analyse projects when teaching, I am as a guest professor, and without any Rossi developed in those years. Did of my own projects. And I never showed always impressed by how quickly you previous experience in teaching. you deliberately follow Rossi’s method the work of other architects, except manage to pin down the central issue… Between these two dates, you became or was it merely a fortuitous meeting for that of Le Corbusier for the hospital of I was never aware of your blank page a prominent architect, created signif- of practices? Venice – and extraordinary project issues. Maybe because, when I have the cant works in collaboration with Livio which, had it been followed through, opportunity to work on a new project Vacchini, successfully took part in LS I’d never met Rossi in person could have made a very important with you, the lack of immediate an- important competitions… in other before Zurich. Of course, when statement. If I ever proceeded diferently, swers is compensated by your special words, you became an architect who is we did the survey in Bellinzona, we those were certainly very exceptional curiosity and by your capacity to ask exceptionally aware of urban issues all knew his work: the method we cases. unexpected questions. For instance, the

128 129 other day, when we were discussing a like this. I was fascinated by his great disease and how to prevent it. One day, through my documents, I found a potential new project for a residential perseverance. As a fsherman, fshing during one of those endlessly repeated chart that I used in your studio, which area, the frst questions you raised were: was never enough for him: every day, lectures, the audience started throwing codifes even the colour of the self- who is going to live there? What is the he tried to improve what he didn’t like tomatoes at him. My father, hit by the adhesive papers… You wanted our human context? It is as if you constantly about yesterday’s performance. I met frst tomato, went on as if nothing had drawings to be as simple and as clear reminded yourself of what your work is another person who was like that: happened: “as for the trout…” and then as possible. That was always very really about. Your famous invitation to the chef of a restaurant where I used the second tomato hit him! By the time important, wasn’t it? put one’s moral conscience before one’s to go, who cooked veal breast with he was done he was dripping with talent as an architect can also be seen spaghetti. His spaghetti were always tomatoes, yet he did not bat an eye: LS Always. I was always interested in the way you work: before venturing on way overcooked, but his veal breast he would get hit by a tomato, wipe it of, in drawing as an opportunity for any new project, you always try to fgure was the best in the world. I swear, for and go on. My father never gave up, synthesis, as a moment when signs, out if it’s worth it and, if relevant, which ffty years he cooked nothing but that. ever. I like simple people who can stripped down to their bare essentials, topics must be underscored. He was a one-menu guy: spaghetti tirelessly repeat the same task, day in, acquire a well-defned meaning. A line and veal breast for ffty years, and every day out. This kind of people changes should never be drawn carelessly. Even LS Yes, it is absolutely essential to day he made them with the same love every day, because every day they in the early stages of a general blue- understand what the project is about and dedication, but always trying to increase their knowledge by a fractional print, the drawings can be instrumental and what you are doing before sitting at improve them. That’s the kind of people amount, invisible to most. Here lies to the project by making explicit the the drawing desk. It’s often a slow pro- I like, those who carry on and never give the strength of a person: in proceeding location’s key points of reference. If you cess because, once you’ve overcome up, ever ever ever. I enjoy repetition. slowly, yet steadily. The steps must be fail to highlight those elements, you that initial feeling of helplessness, you short. cannot understand the context. can easily stumble again and stop sever- SM You have that aphorism about al times in the course of the project. And repetition: “Variety is the prelude to SM Efciency, in this case, means SM An instance that expresses luckily so: when you stumble, you take monotony, if you want to avoid it you to acquire an in-depth knowledge of particularly well your ability to shape a a step forward. That was often the case must repeat your element”. a given topic, to avoid being superfcial: project and communicate your passion with Vacchini. If after a few attempts we it has nothing to do with a spasmodic is the Braunschweig project that we realised that we were going nowhere, LS Yes. Just like my father used to search for variety. presented two years ago in Como. The we would drop everything and go to the do. He was a veterinarian and, as wonderful model you created in 1979 bar and drink champagne. It’s important member of a curious commission that LS Indeed it doesn’t. Efciency was placed in the middle of one of the to give yourself the time to fnd the verifed the authenticity of Lourdes requires advancing one millimetre after circular rooms on the corner of right answer. In that sense, I’ve always miracles, he would travel around the the other. One millimetre per day is Terragni’s Novocomum building; on the sufered when working with people who, Canton of Ticino to give a lecture already too much. I like people who background, against the rounded wall, when faced with those natural setbacks, that I know by heart, titled “Lourdes and move that way, and I have surrounded was a blow up of your Braunschweig come up with dozens of alternatives in medicine”. I had to accompany him myself with friends like this. cross-section which, in a few concise a row, as if they were fshing them out of (I must have been seven or eight) and lines, summed up the project’s underly- some kind of storage. I just couldn’t stand it: I was supposed SM Your aspiration to patient ing idea. Beside this attention to to run the slideshow while listening for research never required many words: drawing, Braunschweig (and the idea SM Does your intolerance for ready the umpteenth time to the same lecture, I remember you often invited us to of turning the emptiness left by the answers extend to a more general idea the same words, and the same jokes. speak less and focus on our work. But destructive power of war into an of contemporary efciency? A transcrip- He always started with “Lourdes is on drawing, unlike words, seems to have international monument in memory of tion of your conversation with the philos- the bank of the river Gave, which begins an absolutely essential role in your World War II) highlights other classical opher Fabio Merlini, titled L’architettura with a ‘G’ like God and ends with an research. When I discovered your work themes of your work: emptiness as inefciente (Inefcient Architecture), ‘ave’ like Ave Maria”… so embarrassing, for the frst time in the Electa mono- a crucial moment in the construction of was recently published. Are you sug- I literally wanted to hide under the table! graph (I was still a high school student a city, but above all the civic awareness gesting that the idea of super-efciency Well, that’s the kind of people I like. at the time), I was impressed, even and clear political position of your work might be dangerous? Today, in such relentless repetition, more than by the project as such, as an architect. I see my father’s true strength. Here is by the way in which the Kalman house LS It’s terrible. You know, my best another anecdote about that side of his was drawn. I was always struck by your LS To me, architects must be, friend ever was a fsherman. He passed personality: there was a fsh disease attention to drawing which, over the before anything else, critical intellectu- for the village idiot but he was superb (I don’t recall its name) which could be years, was translated into a rigorous als. Their task is to resist any power at fshing. Well, when I was with him passed on to humans, and my father system of representation that regulated or event of which they do not approve. (it’s almost hard for me to talk about it), had to give regular lectures to raise everything, from the size to the scale Thinking of Braunschweig, which I felt we could spend months together awareness among fshermen about that of the line. Some time ago, while going epitomises the destruction that society

130 131 can wreak in times of war, today I ask LS I am not, but I can see what they them upside down. I was very surprised Does it mean that you do not rule out myself: what did our society produce in did, the districts they built, and I say to hear you claim that the urban sprawl, that kind of opportunity? times of peace? to myself that these works could have which you despise, should be allowed been done ffty years ago: I can’t fnd to expand freely; that after the failed LS I don’t. When they took down SM Your civic awareness and any element of novelty. attempts to contain and control it, today that water tower, it was one of the political commitment are expressed in it makes more sense to spare our hardest blows I ever had to deal with in a tireless desire to work on the city, SM You always refused the notion energies in order to highlight a few my life. I sufered for a whole month. to achieve the urban potential of every of “urban sprawl”, while deploring the elements which (thanks to their intrinsic It was as if they had torn away a piece of single project, down to the most lack of critical attention to it. In your force) can contribute in a signifcant me: when I saw the demolished tower, insignifcant speculation house. This work as an architect, however, you occa- manner to the urban space. Is this I thought “I can’t believe it”… requires a constant attention to the sionally agreed to work on that type of consideration, which appears to evolution of the city and being deeply city, which you hate. And when you did, overturn some of your beliefs, part of SM In that case you would have been rooted in the present. What is your you tried to provide some answers. I am your new perspective on the city? willing to create a second Monte vision of our contemporary age? Some fascinated by this aspect of your work. Carasso. But you think that in other time ago I heard you strongly criticise So, to you, accepting that kind of project LS Yes, it’s something I’ve been cases, today, we should go further than the state of contemporary architecture. is not necessarily an absolute evil: the thinking about lately: when I wonder that. You don’t know exactly how, but Are you still so pessimistic? problem arises when it becomes a habit what we should do to get out of the you feel it is necessary. One of the and when people abandon their critical unfortunate situation I just mentioned, projects where you really went far in LS Absolutely. I do appreciate the attitude toward the context in which this is precisely what comes to my mind. your refection on the city is the efort and I’m sure there are good they operate. We no longer need to run around trying Deltametropolis in the Netherlands. But architects around who produce single to fx the mess that we’ve made. Instead there you had the advantage of having good-quality projects, and I’m not LS That’s right, you can’t focus only of losing ourselves into details, we must asked, once again, the right question: saying that everything that is being on certain topics. Sometimes, trying have the strength to imagine a new whether and how we can orient made today is garbage. But I don’t see something diferent can be an opportu- city inside the one that already exists, ourselves in a modern metropolis as in any openings for shaking things up and nity to ask questions and elicit a investing on the territory’s structural a traditional city. You managed to push for really taking a step forward. reaction in order to attribute an urban elements. There are many things to your refection to quite a radical degree Architects are getting by and producing value to extremely trivial situations. My revolutionize, a whole generation of and to ask fundamental questions single elements that can be interesting, ultimate goal is always the city, even ideas; until we fnd the right ideas, going without necessarily having to consider but overall they seem unable to trigger when working on a common house. In on building small houses will be of no all the aspects of the project. Do you what I’m expecting. I can’t think of any the case of the Kalman house, I started help. think we need to work on a diferent, project I’ve seen in the last few years from the assumption that a single-family metropolitan scale? With gestures that that raised what I consider as funda- house is not an urban element, which SM But you wouldn’t mind working are so powerful as to trigger the change mental questions. They’re all brilliant, forced to face the contradiction of being again on a project like Monte Carasso … that you mentioned? and to me being brilliant is a setback, interested in a theme which did not certainly not a quality: being common is belong to me. LS Yes, there is indeed a contradic- LS I think so. But I also want to much better. But I wouldn’t know how to tion: Monte Carasso is not part of that stress that the whole Deltametropolis get out of this situation. I must admit SM In your work, you always pay meaningless urban sprawl. It is a place project was approached in very practical that I fnd it quite difcult to tell you how considerable attention to the theme of with unique qualities. It wasn’t much terms. I was thinking of the possibility I see the current situation and its the boundary, as if you always wanted of a village, yet it possessed all the to see, know and recognise the whole possible developments. Nothing seems to establish one. But in more recent elements that made you want to turn metropolis while landing on a plane. to express any fundamental novelty, years, your perspective has changed it into a place with a clear identity; unlike The metropolis “becomes” a circle that and even the good works I see just (I am thinking of the discussions we had other villages that you can see today you can see. When you land, you are repeat what’s already been done before. during the last editions of our Inter- in Switzerland, which one would rather inside that circle, but you can also read national Seminar in Monte Carasso). demolish than improve. every city that composes the metropolis SM So you are not referring so You seem no longer satisfed with the thanks to the towers that mark their much to the lack of good-quality build- idea of containing the city and other SM So there are cases, like Monte presence; from within that circle, you ings as to their inability to inspire related topics, such as the necessity of Carasso, which deserve a diferent see a constant alternation of sea and a critical refection on the condition defning empty spaces, although you approach. You came quite close to cities. You have the concrete opportuni- of contemporary cities. Actually some of doubtlessly still approve these corner- achieving a second Monte Carasso with ty to visually encompass and therefore your students, now successful archi- stones of your past research: it is as if that wonderful project in Rosà, in Italy, understand the whole metropolis in a tects, did endeavour to do so. Are you you were seeing an opportunity of going where you proposed to preserve the few seconds. That’s the aspect I was aware of their eforts? beyond those topics, or even of turning water tower. The project had potential. interested in. It’s a project that goes be-

132 133 yond the usual dimension of reading a and the other, which you already Stefano Moor city: the very notion of dimension, in its mentioned, is his project for the hospital Born in Lugano in 1968, Stefano Moor traditional sense, is no longer relevant. in Venice. When explaining that second graduated in 1993 from the Polytechnic Turning down that project was a foolish project, you stress Le Corbusier’s Institute of Lausanne with Luigi Snozzi, choice: I think it had the potential to sensitive and skilful reading of the city with whom he started a long collabora- fnally create a meaningful European and how he (please forgive the expres- tion as a teacher in the same institute metropolis, without having to demolish sion) bows down to the existing urban and at the international architecture anything. fabric. You might say that it works seminars of Monte Carasso, which he because it’s Venice, not the kind of still organises. In parallel, he pursued SM That’s why you accepted the urban sprawl we were talking about. Yet a professional independent activity and downside of the urban sprawl: your one could fnd a slight contradiction had numerous teaching experiences interest, in that case, lay beyond issues between your praise for Le Corbusier’s as an external examiner. His works of scale or of composing a single urban sensitivity in Argentina and in Venice have been presented in personal and fragment, but addressed something and your longing for radical ideas, closer collective exhibitions and he has held larger. My intuition is that you are to his “bomb-projects” for Rio de Janeiro lectures in Switzerland and abroad. looking for something so powerful that for the “Plan Obus” in Algiers. Do you Since 2014, he has been teaching at the fragments and small houses become feel we need to go back to those HEPIA in Geneva. secondary… “bombs”, to project that can position themselves in contrast to their sur- Photographs: Jeremy Ayer LS Exactly. These topics are so pow- rounding, if needs be? erful that cultivating your own garden becomes irrelevant. We must reach the LS Absolutely. Bombs that do not fundamental questions. destroy anything. That’s the whole point, I think: to place non-destructive bombs. SM You need great clarity of mind to achieve that: there is always the Luigi Snozzi risk of becoming involved in projects Born in Mendrisio in 1932, Luigi Snozzi that are too utopian, too focused on is one of the best-known architects in mega-structures… And after all, this is Switzerland. After graduating at the an approach that you adopted at the Polytechnic Institute of Zurich in 1957, beginning of your career, and which he worked in the studios of Peppo you later abandoned. Or is something Brivio and Rino Tami before opening his diferent? own studio in Locarno in 1958. From 1962 to 1968, he collaborated with LS I believe it is. But I couldn’t give Livio Vacchini. Parallel to his work as an you a precise answer because, as I architect, Snozzi taught as an invited mentioned before, it is something that professor at the Polytechnic Institute I’m still thinking about every day, and of Zurich (1973-75), then at the School I am still far from a defnitive answer. of Architecture of Geneva University These are budding thoughts, and giving (1981), and fnally at the Polytechnic them a concrete shape will take time. Institute of Lausanne (1980-82 and Given my age, I might not be able to 1984-85), where he became full profes- bring that refection to a conclusion. sor in 1985. After this appointment, he opened a second studio in Lausanne SM These ideas are extremely in 1988. Since 1998, he has been an interesting. If I am not mistaken, you invited professor at the faculties have two favourite projects by le of architecture of Trieste and Alghero. Corbusier: the frst is the Curutchet Snozzi is the recipient of many awards, house in Argentina, whose accurate and including the “Prince of Wales” prize, insightful inscription in its context led which he received in 1993 for his work you to cry out, when you saw it for the in Monte Carasso. frst time: “This is one of my houses!”;

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Swiss Grand Award for Art / Prix Meret Oppenheim 2018 This publication was produced and fnanced by the Swiss Federal Ofce of Culture as part of its support for the arts in Switzerland. It is included as a free supplement with Kunstbulletin no. 7-8/ 18, in cooperation with Verlag Schweizer Kunstverein.

136 137 Jury, giuria, Prix Meret Oppenheim 2018 Die Eidgenössische Kunstkommission Preisträgerinnen und 2007 2015 ist beauftragt, das Bundesamt für Preisträger Véronique Bacchetta Christoph Büchel Eidgenössische Kunstkommission Kultur in allen Fragen der Kunst- und Lauréates et lauréats Kurt W. Forster Olivier Mosset Commission fédérale d’art Architekturförderung des Bundes zu Vincitrici e vincitori Peter Roesch Urs Stahel Commissione federale d’arte beraten. Sie bildet die Jury bei der Awardees Anselm Stalder Staufer & Hasler Federal Art Commission Verleihung des Schweizer Grand Prix 2001– 2017 Kunst / Prix Meret Oppenheim. 2008 2016 Giovanni Carmine 2001 edition fnk Adelina von Fürstenberg Präsident La Commission fédérale d’art a pour Peter Kamm (Georg Rutishauser) Christian Philipp Müller Président mission de conseiller l'Ofce fédéral de Ilona Rüegg Mariann Grunder Martin Steinmann Presidente la culture dans toutes les questions George Steinmann Manon President touchant à l’encouragement fédéral de Mario Pagliarani 2017 l’art et de l’architecture. Elle fait ofce de 2002 Arthur Rüegg Daniela Keiser Laura Arici jury pour l’attribution du Prix Meret Ian Anüll Peter Märkli Valentin Carron Oppenheim. Hannes Brunner 2009 Philip Ursprung Victoria Easton Marie José Burki Ursula Biemann Julie Enckell Julliard La Commissione federale d’arte ha il Relax Roger Diener Anne-Julie Raccoursier compito di consigliare l’Ufcio federale (Marie-Antoinette Christian Marclay Anselm Stalder della cultura in tutte le questioni inerenti Chiarenza, Daniel Croptier, Muda Mathis & alla promozione dell’arte e dell’architet- Daniel Hauser) Sus Zwick Aldo Nolli tura da parte della Confederazione. La Renée Levi Ingrid Wildi Merino Anne Marie Wagner Commissione federale d’arte costituisce Experten Architektur la giuria per l’attribuzione del Gran 2003 2010 Experts en architecture Premio svizzero d'arte / Prix Meret Silvia Bächli Gion A. Caminada Esperti di architettura Oppenheim. Rudolf Blättler Yan Duyvendak Architecture experts Hervé Graumann Claudia & Julia Müller The Federal Art Commission has the Harm Lux Annette Schindler Léa Fluck task of advising the Federal Ofce Claude Sandoz Roman Signer Sekretärin of Culture on all matters concerning Secrétaire federal support for art and architecture. 2004 2011 Segretaria The Commission also acts as the jury Christine Binswanger & John Armleder Secretary for the Swiss Grand Award For Art / Prix Harry Gugger Patrick Devanthéry & Meret Oppenheim. Roman Kurzmeyer Inès Lamunière Peter Regli Silvia Gmür Hannes Rickli Ingeborg Lüscher Guido Nussbaum 2005 Miriam Cahn 2012 Alexander Fickert & Bice Curiger Katharina Knapkiewicz Niele Toroni Johannes Gachnang Günther Vogt Gianni Motti Václav Požárek 2013 Michel Ritter Thomas Huber Miller & Maranta 2006 Marc-Olivier Wahler Dario Gamboni Markus Raetz 2014 Catherine Schelbert Anton Bruhin Robert Suermondt Pipilotti Rist Rolf Winnewisser Catherine Quéloz Peter Zumthor pool Architekten

138 139 Die Preisverleihung fand am 11. Juni Herausgeber, Editeur, Edito da, Publisher © 2018 Bundesamt für Kultur, Bern, 2018 in Basel statt. Die Preisträgerin Bundesamt für Kultur, Ofce fédéral de die Autorinnen und Autoren für ihre und die Preisträger wurden geehrt von: la culture, Ufcio federale della cultura, Texte sowie Reto Schmid, Jeremy Ayer, Federal Ofce of Culture Jiajia Zhang für die Fotografen. La remise des prix a eu lieu le 11 juin Hallwylstrasse 15, CH-3003 Bern 2018 à Bâle. La lauréate et les lauréats Bild: Meret Oppenheim, Symmetrisches ont été honorés par : Redaktion, Rédaction, Redazione, Editor Gesicht mit Locken, (Tdb), 1960. Manuela Schlumpf © 2018, ProLitteris, Zurich. La cerimonia di premiazione si è svolta a Basilea l’11 giugno 2018. Hanno Beiträge, Textes, Testi, Texts reso omaggio alle vincitrici e ai vincitori: Giovanni Carmine Léa Fluck The award ceremony took place in Samuel Gross (Sylvie Fleury) Basel on 11 June 2018. The laureates Stefano Moor (Luigi Snozzi) were honored by: Yasmil Raymond (Thomas Hirschhorn)

Bea Schlingelhof (Künstlerin, Zürich): Übersetzung, Traduction, Traduzione, Sylvie Fleury Translations Kathleen Bühler (Kuratorin Gegenwarts- Daniela Almansi, Philippe Moser, kunst, Kunstmuseum Bern): Monica Nolli, Bram Opstelten, Thomas Hirschhorn Alain Perrinjaquet, Chrisoula Petridis, Werner Oechslin (Kunst- und Architektur- Davide Pivetta historiker, Einsiedeln): Luigi Snozzi Korrektorat, Relecture, Rilettura, Proofreading Daniela Almansi, Philippe Moser, Monica Nolli, Bram Opstelten, Alain Perrinjaquet, Chrisoula Petridis, Ambroise Tièche

Gestaltung, Conception, Progetto grafco, Graphic Design Vela Arbutina, Zürich

Fotografen, Photographies, Fotografe, Photographs Reto Schmid (Sylvie Fleury) Jiajia Zhang (Thomas Hirschhorn) Jeremy Ayer (Luigi Snozzi)

Schriften, Caractères, Caratteri, Typeface Neue Haas Unica

Druck, Impression, Stampa, Printed by Druckerei Odermatt AG, Dallenwil

Aufage, Tirage, Tiratura, Print run 15’000

ISBN 978-3-9522701-3-4

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