the boisi center interviews no. 98: October 23, 2014

rod dreher is an author and blogger who currently writes a blog for The American Conserva- tive and is finishing a book about Dante’s Divine Comedy. He spoke with Boisi Center graduate research assistant Yael Levin Hungerford and undergraduate research assistant Sean Keeley before participating in a Boisi Center panel on writing about religion in a polarized age.

PART I: DANTE book. It just devastated me. Hannah said depression. I was physically ill. I had that my father, Ruthie’s father (I call him chronic fatigue. The doctors tested me hungerford: You describe Dante’s Paw in the book), had done this too, that and said there’s really no underlying rea- Divine Comedy —the subject of your cur- he had great disregard for me for having son for this, therefore it must be stress. rent book project—as a self-help book, in left home. They had never told me that. What are you stressed about? I said, fact “the most astonishing self-help book I knew there was some tension. And I “Well, I’ll tell you.” I told them that I ever written.” What do you mean by that? wanted nothing more than to come home dreher: I came to the Divine Comedy by and be with my family, and the door was accident. I moved back to —to closed as I was right at the threshold. I my hometown—three years ago, after the didn’t know what to do about it. death of my sister, Ruthie. I wrote a book My doctor said I would have to move The Little Way of Ruthie about it called or I’d lose my health. I said, “I can’t do Leming . either. My kids are happy here. I can’t I thought it was going to be a happy end- move my kids around again. I’ve uproot- ing, but it turned out not to be. Her death ed them so many times over the course of was a real occasion of grace—she met my career. Plus, my parents are old, and I her death from cancer bravely and with need to be here for them.” He said, “Well, great faith—and it changed my heart and you better find inner peace.” made me want to go back to Louisiana So that’s how I went into therapy. My to be part of the community in which I priest gave me a prayer rule. And then had grown up and help my family. But I fell into Dante in a bookstore one day. my family didn’t really receive me in the I don’t read poetry. I don’t read much way that I wanted to be received. The fiction. I pulled it off the shelf and started narrative that had been established from had all these opportunities, when I came reading: “In the middle of the journey of my childhood—that Rod was the weirdo home, to try to mend those fences. It our life, I came to myself in a dark wood, who left town, went to the city, got above didn’t go anywhere. And it was devastat- for I’d lost the straight path.” I thought himself—hadn’t changed. ing to me. But I went back and I finished that sounded familiar, and kept reading. the book. I talk about this in The Little After I went home, my sister Ruthie’s Over the course of this journey through Way—that this is hard, but this is what oldest daughter, Hannah, told me that, the Commedia, I saw that this was a book love requires. “you’re really going to have a tough time written by a man who had suffered great- here because our mother raised us to be- As it happened, nothing got better. You ly. Of course I’d learned Dante’s story: lieve that you were bad for leaving home.” can only do so much. I tried and tried; he had been on the top of the world; he When she told me that, I had already nothing worked. I fell into an emotional was a celebrated poet, at the pinnacle finished all but the last chapter of the

1 the boisi center interview: rod dreher of his powers as a city leader. And then self, accept help and accept grace. That’s beauty and the complexity of it. I didn’t everything was taken away from him. He what Dante taught me to do. know if God existed, but I said, I want had to figure out how to live and how to to be part of the religious imagination So in that sense, it’s a self-help book. The affirm the goodness of life in the middle that can build something so beautiful book I’m writing is called How Dante of that. and complex. Taking up Dante, this time Can Save Your Life, because he really did at forty-six, was a Chartres Cathedral What happened to me was not remotely give me a new life, I believe. Nothing has experience for me. It was the beauty that as serious as what happened to Dante, changed in my daily life back in Louisi- prepared my imagination—the beauty of but I drew so much inspiration from the ana, but everything changed inside. He Dante’s verse that prepared my imagina- work. When I read a letter that he wrote gave me strength. I think he can really tion for the moral instruction. to his patron explaining the Commedia help a lot of people. to him, he said that “the purpose of my hungerford: You say you had to hungerford: What is it about Dante’s book is to bring people from a state of learn how to make your family and home words that spoke to you in a way that your misery to a state of happiness.” I said, “Of the proper type of goods—not idols. How therapist’s alone didn’t? course it is.” did you do that? dreher: It’s his artistry. It’s fantastic What he did was give me a framework for dreher: I had been raised to think the way he works. In the Purgatorio, understanding what happened to me. In of family and place—this little town particular, for making sense of the fact in south Louisiana—as being primary that I knew my parents loved me, I knew goods, because I do come from a good my sister loved me; but why did they act “I used to think all family and a good place. But they got this way? Why couldn’t we see eye to eye? confused in my mind. My father is such of life was in The an embodiment of family and place. That Dante explains that sin is a matter not was what he loves more than anything, of hatred, necessarily, but of twisted Godfather, parts what my sister loved more than anything. love—suddenly that was a key for me. In the Purgatorio, he meets Marco the one and two. Without quite realizing what had hap- Lombard who tells him, “Brother, the No, it’s all in the pened, reading Dante unmasked this world is blind and you’re blind too, but for me. I had rejected their idolization of you have the power of free will. You don’t Commedia.” family and place in my mind, because have to accept it. You know, we all have I left there—I moved away—but in my to live with it, but you don’t have to let it heart, I really hadn’t. conquer you.” the dispositions we have toward sin get I only realized when I got deeply into That was a tremendously important straightened out when he starts to go Dante, and deeply into this contempla- turning point for me. The therapist I was through the terraces on the mountain of tive prayer rule that my priest had given seeing at the time said the same thing. purgatory. The method Dante uses—or me, that this was why I didn’t think God “You cannot change your family, but you the method in the Commedia that God loved me. I thought I had to keep work- have power to change your reaction to it.” uses—to straighten people out is you ini- ing to get God’s approval, because I saw So oddly enough, what I was being told tially are confronted. Dante the pilgrim God, the Father, as being like my earthly by my therapist was the same thing I was is confronted with hand carvings in the father. reading in the Commedia. But I could mountain done by the finger of God of I knew that my dad loved me, but also take it from the Commedia, because un- different scenes from the Hebrew Bible that he didn’t approve of me. He didn’t like my attitude towards therapy, I wasn’t and the New Testament, illustrating the approve of my choices. He couldn’t affirm snarky and defensive. virtue that he’s trying to teach the peni- tent. Dante is trying to show us, his read- me. Armchair psychologists could have The only reason I went to see a therapist ers, that if you’re overcome with beauty figured this out, but I couldn’t see it my- was my wife and my doctor said I had to and wonder, you prepare the imagination self. I was in the middle of it. Despite my do it. I was cynical, but it turned out to for moral instruction. I found out that’s theological sophistication, in my heart of be great. I had to humble myself. That’s what happened to me. hearts, I had confused my earthly father what Dante says too in Purgatorio: the with God the Father. only way you’re going to get out of this Early in life I had decided that religion After this realization, I was able to sep- dark wood you’re in is to humble your- was empty until I wandered into the Chartres Cathedral at age seventeen arate them and to throw down the idols and was so knocked off my feet by the of family and place. Then everything

2 the boisi center interview: rod dreher began to open up within me, and I was able to see family and place as goods but not the ultimate good. And insofar as they are good, they are good because they conform to the will of God. For me, that was revolutionary. I realized what a burden I’d been carrying around all these years, a burden of guilt for having let my family down by moving away. It was one thing to know in my mind that they were wrong, but another thing to feel it in my heart. We think we can intellectualize our way out of a problem, but you really can’t. Sometimes you just have to suffer your way through it and come out to the other side. hungerford: Who is the audience Rod Dreher (far right) speaks with Sarah Posner and Mark Oppenheimer at the Boisi Center’s October that you’re writing this book for? 23, 2014, panel on writing about religion in a polarized age. dreher: I’m writing this book for meets Farinata—a Ghibelline warlord And so these two things are what spoke people like myself—people who aren’t who is so proud of his place and his fami- to me in particular about the Inferno. But literary scholars or who aren’t particu- ly’s position, and yet couldn’t see that he’s other people, whatever their own experi- larly literary but who also aren’t the sort in hell. All he wants to know about Dante ences, they can find it in Inferno, Purgato- of people who will buy a self-help book. is whether he was good enough to talk to. rio and Paradiso. I want them to know that God can speak I see my family in that scene. They don’t to us in any number of ways. He will understand that everything has changed. use anything in creation to reach out But I also see—or rather, saw—myself, PART II: WRITING ABOUT to us and call us back to Himself. He holding on to all these old hurts. They’re RELIGION happened to use this amazing literary just holding on to position and place. masterpiece to reach me in my own dark keeley: In order to write about religion wood. Another striking scene in the Inferno is successfully and meaningfully, do you when one of the corrupt popes is shoved think there’s an advantage to being a I think there are a lot of people out there upside-down in a baptismal font; that religious person or do you think non- who will respond to Dante, but who helped me so much, because here is believers or secularists can write about would be like me and never pick it up. Dante, who is such a devout Catholic— religion in a thoughtful and intelligent For me, it was one of these great books and who wrote the most incredible work way without just trying to score political that I wish I had read in college, but nev- of religious art ever in prose or poetry— points? er did. I thought I would pick it up when here he is condemning the corruption of I was old and sitting around the fireplace the Church. This helped me so much, dreher: I used to think that there’s in my armchair. I never would have because the whole time I was raging at really no particular advantage to being realized how much life and relevance the corruption in the , a religious person. I don’t believe that was in this text if I hadn’t been so broken there was a part of me that felt guilty, like anymore. by experience that I said, all right, what I was blaspheming against my own fa- On the way up to today, I was else you got? What could this hurt? The ther. Pope Benedict XV, in the early part reading a manuscript of a forthcoming book was so full of life. All of life is in the of the 20th century, wrote an encyclical book—memoir by a man who was an Commedia. I used to think all of life was praising Dante as being the poet for the American convert to who, after in The Godfather, parts one and two. No, ages and a great Catholic. That there was 9-11, ended up becoming a Christian. it’s all in the Commedia. a man who felt even angrier at the cor- He doesn’t write at all with anger about I find that people who’ve read it have such ruption in the Church than I did but who his time as a Muslim. He writes with different reactions to it because it speaks still affirmed the goodness of God—and great love and affection. I was down there to different parts of us. One scene in the who still affirmed the church—to me, when the twin towers were attacked; I Inferno that struck me was when Dante that was such a revelation. was working for the then.

3 the boisi center interview: rod dreher I watched the South Tower fall, and I dia—which in some cases did a very good my blog tell me that’s why they keep com- had to deal with an immense amount job, but which did not have the depth of ing, even though I drive them crazy with of anger at Islam because of that. But theological knowledge that people within my opinions sometimes, because they reading this man’s book this morning on the church did. know they can dissent in a thoughtful the way up here made me realize that at way, and they will get thoughtful dissent But the downside—the inevitably in- some level, I understand a pious Muslim back. separable downside—is, as you say, that more than I understand people in my people only listen to those who already own family who are secularists, because agree with them. It is so frustrating. I we have that base—we believe that there try myself to read people who don’t agree PART III: THE BENEDICT is a reality beyond ourselves and greater with me, who I think are arguing in good OPTION than we can understand. faith. hungerford: On your blog you have When I read something written by an written extensively about what you call Orthodox Jew or a Muslim or a Mormon, the Benedict Option. What is the Bene- I feel that even if I don’t agree with them dict Option, and why is now a good time theologically or maybe their moral posi- “As a religious to be exploring it? tion, I understand better where they’re coming from. believer I worry dreher: When I walked in here, I saw Alasdair MacIntyre’s great book After I find that it’s almost an unbridgeable about whether Virtue on the shelf. It’s a work of moral chasm between religious people—or re- philosophy. I read it a few years ago, and ligiously orthodox people—and secular- my children are the final paragraph just really struck ists in that so many secularists seem to me. The book is about how, in moder- believe that Enlightenment liberalism is going to keep the nity—in late modernity, in our time—it the default position that describes reality. faith, because we becomes very difficult for people to have It’s not just one position among many. a conversation about morality because we It becomes so difficult to talk across that live in a world of have so many different narratives going religious divide. through our head. The fundamental I really like being able to find this com- so much moral divide between secularists and religious mon ground when speaking with people chaos.” people that I was talking about earlier who see the world through religious eyes. means that it becomes difficult, even if It helps me to understand religion—the both parties have good will, to agree on religious dimension—in news stories, I’m religiously conservative, religiously commonality, because we just interpret which I think might simply not appear to orthodox, but I see a lot of people on my the world so differently. This is what people who don’t have faith. own side who don’t argue in good faith— MacIntyre talks about in After Virtue. He who just want to argue for the sake of explains that the world is in such epis- keeley: You have said on your blog arguing and defeating their opponents. I temic chaos that things are falling apart. that one of the benefits of writing about see it all the time on the other side too. It’s like the late Roman empire. We have religion in a polarized age is that there’s lost something important in terms of I think that what one has to do is to no single authority. There are all these trying to make moral sense of the world. cultivate an intellectual disposition of different perspectives you can find on MacIntyre makes one wonder: are we openness and fairness, and fight hard to religious issues. But I’m wondering: do living in a new Dark Age—an age that’s seek out those on the other side who can you think that might also have a negative not dark because we lack material wealth, disagree in good faith. It’s a difficult task. side to it—that people will only listen to but because we lack confidence that truth I have a lot of commentators, for exam- the one side that they already agree with? can be known, and we lack a common ple, on my blog, and I pride myself on dreher: It’s a blessing and a curse. I ground, a common vision? curating the comments threads to make saw the great blessing of the diversity it a civil conversation. Half or maybe even What we were looking for is a new and and the cacophony of internet religion more than half of the people who com- very different St. Benedict—Benedict of writing when the Catholic abuse scandal ment on my blog don’t agree with me, Nursia, the monk of the fifth and sixth broke. It meant that we Catholics (I was but I’m happy to have them there, as long century who left Rome as it was falling Catholic then) did not have to depend as they will do it in a civil way. It’s been apart and went out into the woods to pray. on official sources or the mainstream me- hard work to do that, but people who read He gained a reputation as a holy man and

4 the boisi center interview: rod dreher ple—Christians in my case, but I’ve also talked to a Jewish friend about this—to live in community with each other, practice the faith, raise the next gener- ation to have a real faith—not a sort of brittle shell, but a real muscular faith; to internalize the faith and to live this out in a world that tells them there is no truth or that truth is just whatever you think it is. I don’t mean for it to be utopian. We all know how utopian communities end up. I want to look at something that’s real and workable. I visited a Benedictine monastery—built over the house of St. Benedict—during my recent trip to Italy for my book on founded the Benedictine Order, which, religion of most Americans—Ameri- Dante. American monks live there now. It over centuries, became the means by can young people, but also my parents’ had been closed down by Napoleon in the which Europe found its way out of chaos, generation. It’s the view that God is up 1800s, but they reopened it in about the and they preserved the heritage of the there, sort of a cosmic butler, kind of year 2000. I talked to the prior there and classical world as well as the Christian keeping an eye on things. You only really I told him about the Benedict Option. He faith through the so-called Dark Ages. need to call him if you need something. listened; he had never heard of it before. Good people go to heaven, and we’re all I think MacIntyre’s right. I’ve found as He said that’s the only way that the faith good, except Hitler. Smith found that a religious believer that I worry about is going to survive what’s coming. I don’t that’s true across all religions in Ameri- whether my children are going to keep think he was talking about some big per- ca—Judaism, Islam, Christianity. Only the faith, because we live in a world of so secution, like some end-of-times fantasist the evangelicals, to some extent, and the much moral chaos. If they don’t see the thing, but just the daily grind of the faith Mormons, to a great extent, are avoiding faith being lived out, how are they going not meaning anything. this sort of thing. to hold on to it? To me, that’s the most The monk was telling me that young important thing. I don’t care if they’re Well, there’s more to religion than people in Italy don’t think about their rich or poor or whatever. I want them to that—or there ought to be. I’ve seen how traditions. All they want to do is go to still be Christian—in the fullest sense corrosive it is in my own community, New York—you know, adopt American of the word, not just nominally holding where the idea of there being a religious popular culture. They see religion as just on to the faith, but being transformed in tradition to conserve is just gone. It’s all this antiquated thing. Christ and being open to their neighbors about how do I feel? Jesus is my boyfriend. and being faithful and all the things That’s not the faith that defeated segrega- All it takes is one or two generations to that you associate with Christianity. So tion. That’s not the faith of the prophets forget and it’s gone. The monk was tell- I began to wonder, how can we do this? of the Hebrew Bible. Who knows what ing me there’s a community of Catholics What would a new St. Benedict look my kids are going to have to face—what who live in a town over the mountains like—someone who figured out a way to injustices in the future they’re going to from the monastery who are trying to live out the tradition of our faith in a time have to endure. This sort of smarmy, live out what I call the Benedict Option. of chaos? I don’t know what the answer bourgeois pseudo-religion is not going to He said they’re really suffering, because is, but I know we have to try to find it. make it. this is not something that is common in Italy—the idea of homeschooling, One thing I really noticed about going So I want to work on a book on what I call for example—but those are the kind of back to my hometown—I’m from a little the Benedict Option, meaning the choice people who are going to make it, when town of about 1,700 people on the Mis- to strategically withdraw from the main- everybody else is going to fall away. sissippi River—is that religion has been stream. It’s not about running off to the hollowed out. Young people are religious- woods and living in a David Koresh–like hungerford: It strikes me, espe- ly inarticulate. Christian Smith of Notre compound; I think that’s wrong, and it’s cially having come from somewhat of a Dame came up with the title “moralistic unworkable, and it has its own problems. community like that myself, that there is therapeutic deism” to describe the default But I want to find a way for religious peo- a cost to the individual in such a com-

5 the boisi center interview: rod dreher munity. I imagine what I have in mind is PART IV: CATHOLIC abuse scandal: I thought that, because similar to what you experienced in your CONCERNS I had all the syllogisms straight in my hometown. head—had all this theology in my head— hungerford: It sounds like you’re that my reason would help me withstand dreher: You’ve hit on it right there. suggesting that a lot of religion seems anything. And it’s not true. Your reason This is a tension within me and within to be overwhelmed by liberalism these can become overwhelmed by horror. my thinking, and something I will have days, which brings us to the Synod on That’s what happened to me. to explore when I begin the book on the the Family that’s happening right now Benedict Option. I am not someone who in Rome. There are rumors that the I think a lot of Catholics—conservative does well in community, because I come Catholic Church is going to be more wel- Catholics, people I consider my ideologi- from a very tight-knit community. I was coming to people it wasn’t as welcoming cal allies—have way too much faith in the bullied in high school, and the kids who to before: gay people, people who’ve had power of reason. There’re some conserva- were the bullies were from the leading children out of wedlock, divorced people tives—older conservative Catholics—who families, in many cases. It’s an old story. who divorced without annulment. What feel like just reasserting the doctrine is And the system turned a blind eye to it. do you think about these changes? going to restore that authority. It’s not. You cannot just proclaim the doctrine, You see this over and over in the Catholic and I think Francis gets that. church. I remember talking to people in south Louisiana about the 1980s abuse “Western It’s also the case that we in the church— scandal, about the Diocese of Lafayette. Catholic and otherwise—have been cruel Catholics who raised their voice about civilization to gays and lesbians in the past. My oldest that were hounded, not by the clergy— stands or falls on friend is a gay Catholic; he’s chaste and although there was that—but by their he follows the Church’s teaching. But fellow parishioners that didn’t want to the health of the I’ve seen what’s happened, and Francis is hear it. I can’t stand that. And so I would right to want to change it. probably be the first one in the Benedict Catholic Church— The thing that worries me greatly is that, Option community to say: “hang on, wait in trying so hard to change and conform a minute.” But you can’t live that way. You because it has the Catholic church to contemporary can’t have a community of free individu- the roots and it standards in the West, the Church is als. The tensions will pull you apart. going to concede too much, and things So I don’t know the answer to that. But has made western are going to collapse—or the authority it’s something I’m willing to explore. I civilization.” is going to collapse more than it has. I feel that we can’t let the “perfect” become say that knowing that the abuse scandal the enemy of the “good enough.” I think has caused a massive collapse in Catholic we who are religious need to think about dreher: I’ll start by saying I’m an authority that can’t be undone. I’ve seen what part of our autonomy we are willing ex-Catholic, so my opinion doesn’t from the other side, when I was cover- to give up for the comforts and the ben- matter that much. But I do have strong ing the scandal, how the language of efits of community. I don’t think there’s opinions on the topic because I really welcome, the language of tolerance, was a formulaic answer. There’s no utopia; do believe that the western civilization used to cover up a lot of evil. It concerns we have to get rid of that idea. But simply stands or falls on the health of the Cath- me that that’s happening again, or that saying you can never have utopia does olic Church—because it has the roots that could happen. I’m a lot more realis- not settle the question of what the ideal and it has made western civilization. It tic—some might call it cynical—about way to live is. It is an old, old political hasn’t always distinguished itself, but religious rhetoric, about how you want to question—pre-Christian, going back even an ex-Catholic like me has to give be open and all that. Some of the people to the Greeks, at least: How do we live the Church its due. So I want to see the who said the best things—the things that together in a virtuous community? We Church healthy. one could stand up and cheer for—were have a particular challenge right now, at the ones doing the worst in terms of this stage in our cultural history in the No church exists or should exist for itself. covering things up. I think it puts the West, where we’re going to have to ask It exists as primary means to bring peo- Catholic Church and people like me, who that question in a way that it hasn’t been ple in union with God. Pope Francis is wish it well—even though I’m not part of asked in a very long time. right to say the Church has to find a way it anymore—in a really difficult position, to speak to the world as it is. One thing because the world is not listening. I learned from my experience in the sex

6 the boisi center interview: rod dreher But at the same time, if Pope Francis and the Catholic Church lose those who are most dedicated to the faith—who are holding on even though they may be in parishes where the faith is not taught or the traditional Catholicism is run down—if they alienate them, who’s going to be left? In France today, it’s over-generalizing to say the only people going to mass are the traditionalist Catholics, but it’s not a great over-generalization. If you try so hard to reach out—to use the language of mar- keting—you could dilute your brand, and you can lose your most faithful custom- ers and not gain any more. I hate to speak feel like, now that has teaches is true.” But his mindset was so of the Church in those terms, but that’s covered it, we have permission to speak interesting to me. To him—and he’s one what I’m getting at. out about things we’ve seen.” There was a of the best bishops the Catholic Church So it’s something that concerns me. I strong sense of loyalty—that it was being has in America—the institutional church think that no Christian—Protestant or disloyal to criticize the institution. I re- was for itself. You know, they were the Eastern Orthodox, as I am—can look at member Cardinal Law of Boston, back in church. You’re tearing down the institu- what’s happening in the Catholic church the 1990s, thundering against the Boston tion by telling tales out of school. with indifference. Metropolitan Hilar- Globe for doing the work of the devil. I saw this clericalist mindset play out ion of the Moscow Patriarchate in the The man was a straight-up hypocrite, as over and over and over again. People just Russian Orthodox Church has done a lot we learned from the Geoghan trial and wouldn’t tell the truth. They knew what of ecumenical work in Europe and he has subsequent revelations. was going on. Priests knew what was go- said that orthodox Catholics and Protes- As a Catholic, I thought it was my ing on. Laypeople knew what was going tants have to stick together now, because responsibility to do this. I remember on. But it was so important to them that the world has changed. We don’t have the hearing from a conservative archbish- the Church remain immaculate. It was luxury of fighting among ourselves— op—whom I never met in person, but tearing families apart. we’ve got to figure out how we can work with whom I had a friendly correspon- together. I think that’s true. The hypocrisy is evil. Solzhenitsyn said dence—after my articles about the the line between good and evil runs right hungerford: With regard to the scandal in National Review came out. He down the middle of every human heart. sex abuse scandal, you have identified told me I had to stop airing dirty laundry aspects of the institutional structure of in public. I said in response: “Maybe you I think that too many laypeople—on the the Church that contributed to the scan- don’t understand, —this is left and the right or in the great middle— dal. Can you explain the nature of your what’s really going on.” I sent him some didn’t want to face it. They said this is criticism? excerpts from letters conservative Catho- something happening elsewhere. I saw lics had sent to me (with the identifying it in my own parish in Dallas (where we dreher: Right after the John Geoghan information taken out) and said “This is lived after New York), where most people trial in Boston, I wrote a cover story for what’s happening. These are our people.” just didn’t want to talk about it. Dallas National Review (I had just started work- He wouldn’t listen. He said “you’ve got was very hard hit by the scandal, but peo- ing there) about how the Church needed to stop doing this.” Finally I told him, ple wanted so badly to believe that every- to get its act together on this. It was such “I’ve got to do this because I don’t trust thing was OK around us—that it wasn’t an anodyne story to look back on, given you bishops to fix this. You’ve had all this happening to us—that they were willing what we later learned about the nature time. You’ve known this has been going to throw these families to the dogs. of the scandal; but back then it was a on since at least 1985.” And he said to me, big deal for a story like that to appear in It upset me to no end, because this is “If you don’t trust bishops to fix this, why National Review. I started hearing from not what the Church is for. This is not are you still a Catholic?” I said, “Because conservative Catholics saying, “thank what the Church is about. You see these I believe what the Catholic Church you for writing about this, because we bishops apologizing; they should resign.

7 the boisi center interview: rod dreher I don’t believe Rome is going to do any- dreher: I think that Catholic institu- Orthodox, as St. Benedict, not only thing either, until they start taking some tions like , parishes, and because I pray to St. Benedict to help me of these bishops down. Will that happen? religious orders need to give people rea- figure out how to help others and use my No, probably not. But I don’t believe that son for hope. And I say that as somebody vocation wisely, but also to honor Pope the Catholic Church will even begin to who needs it myself. Benedict, who had just become pope repair its credibility until some of these when I left)—said the best arguments When I became Eastern Orthodox, I had princes of the Church are made to suffer for the Catholic faith are not in theolo- to make a decision not to get involved for what they allowed. gy books, but they’re in the art and the in church politics, because there is no saints the Church produced. I think hungerford: That sounds very prob- perfect church. The Eastern Orthodox that’s really true. It sounded good at the lematic if the future of western civiliza- church also has its own big problems. time, but the more I’ve gotten deeper I’ve tion relies on the health of the Church. But as Dante knew, the governance of the gotten into the faith, the more I realize church is not the church—it’s part of the dreher: You see why I’m so worried? I that’s true. All the theology I carried in church, but it’s not the church. To bring remember back when the scandal broke my head didn’t save me. The things that about a healthy spirituality within myself, in 2002, Jody Bottum at was kept me a Christian were thinking about I’ve had to do a lot more prayer and a lot just distraught. He had been working Chartres and thinking about the saints more going to the liturgy, confession, to get the Catholic bishops on the same I knew within the Catholic Church and sacrament, and spiritual reading. And it’s page to fight cloning and fight for the outside the Catholic Church too—the helped me. It’s the kind of thing that, if dignity of human life and against genetic people who are really good and who knew I had been doing it when I was out there experimentation—hugely important exactly what was going on and still held fighting this battle on the scandal, things issues. They were just about to come out on, the way Dante did. I wasn’t strong might have turned out differently for me. with something, I believe. And then this enough to do that then. But I hope I’m happened, and it destroyed their credibil- I’m not sorry I’m Orthodox. I’m glad God strong enough—whatever tests may ity on any topic. humbled me, in the end, the way He did, come—to do that in the future. because I would hate to think I was as I remember Jody being so upset by that. Insofar as Catholic institutions like BC, arrogant an orthodox Christian as I was a I completely understood why, because parishes and others can affix on that Catholic Christian. That’s on me. That’s things like genetic experimentation and vision and not deny the evil, but affirm not the Church’s fault. That’s my fault. cloning concern the nature of what it goodness even in the midst of evil, then means to be human. This is a really big That said, having gone to this Benedic- they will not only serve the Church, thing, and is going to be an even bigger tine monastery in Norcia just for a couple they’ll serve humanity. thing over the course of this century. The of days gave me such hope, because these [end] church—the Catholic Church, all church- are all men—most of them young men— es—need to have a credible voice on just radiated goodness. There’s nothing these issues. But these Catholic bishops, arrogant about them. They’re simple. because they were protecting their own They pray. They work. They love God. and protecting the image of the Church, You can feel it when you’re around them. The Boisi Center for Religion & American Public Life threw away all their moral authority. Now You’re like, ah, this is what the Church nobody will listen to them on anything. is about. It’s not about cynicism and ass If a Catholic bishop told me that it was covering and power plays. It’s about love 24 Quincy Road raining outside, I’d have to go stick my and truth. I mean these guys are ortho- Chestnut Hill, MA 02467 hand out the window to be sure, because dox Catholics, but they give you reason to www.bc.edu/boisi I saw how many times they lied and how hope. 617-552-1860 they would lie with ice in their veins to [email protected] That’s what I’m hoping to do with the protect the Church—anything to protect boisicenter Dante book too. It’s so easy to be cynical the image of the Church. @boisi_center about the Church. And cynicism is real- hungerford: Is there something ism in many ways these days. But there’s Catholic institutions like Boston Col- something beyond that—we can’t give Visit bc.edu/boisi-resources for a complete set of the Boisi lege—and also Catholic individuals—can evil this victory. It doesn’t deserve it. Center Interviews and audio, do on this topic? Pope Benedict XVI—whom I really love video, photographs, and (I chose my patron saint, when I became transcripts from our events.

8 the boisi center interview: rod dreher