GOVERNMENT MEDIA MONITORING UNIT

DATE: MAY 17TH, 2006

TIME: 10.13AM

STATION: 720 ABC MORNINGS(MELLET)

SUBJECT: BLACK/CALLERS – KUCERA COMEBACK

This transcript is produced for information purposes only. Although all care is taken, no warranty as to its accuracy or completeness is given. It is your responsibility to ensure by independent verification that all information is correct before placing any reliance on it.

MELLET

Well, Bob is back, after seemingly being sent to Coventry over a breach of conduct, the former Cabinet minister, Bob Kucera, yesterday put himself back in play, nominating for the Cabinet position that was left vacant by disgraced former police minister, John D’Orazio. If you remember, Mr Kucera was pressured to resign last year by former premier over a scandal involving personal shares. He resigned from the Cabinet position of sport and seniors, having previously held the portfolio of health.

Now, Mr Kucera has declined to be interviewed today, so we thought we’d talk to Curtin University’s political analyst, Professor David Black… (greetings not transcribed)… I’m just wondering how you rate Bob Kucera’s chances?

BLACK

Well I must say I find this a rather unexpected development and… I suppose I could look at it from two perspectives. The first is how long has it been since he was required to leave the ministry, and the answer is of course, it was many months, but it seems a relatively short time to return to the ministry is you are leaving because you have had some error. The only case I can think of quickly off the top of my head was Bill Grayden, who in 1978 got involved in a punch-up in a hotel yard and was dropped by Sir Charles Court from the ministry, and he reappeared just under two years later after there’d been an election. So perhaps the amount of time that he’s served, if you like, hasn’t been all that long, and from that point perhaps it’s a bit surprising. The other issue of course, is… well the second issue relating to that of course, is that subsequently other problems developed with people like Alannah MacTiernan and they did not have to resign, and so perhaps this may be, you know, he may be feeling that he really took a fairly harsh punishment in terms of what happened. So, you know, who knows. 2

But the other issue beyond that again is the question of talent for the ministry, and I think there was a bit of a feeling that while Bob Kucera was a sound and solid minister, he’d not been one of the great achievers of the ministry. He’d been the health minister and had then been moved to what might be called a range or diverse portfolio, and therefore I suppose there’s a little bit of a feeling that there must be a few ambitious members of caucus around who think that they have a stronger case than he does to return to the ministry.

MELLET

I’m really interested in how this appears to be perceived by the voters. We’ve had the situation where John D’Orazio resigned after, well it was less than 24 hours that decided not to sack him, there was a lot of talk around that people felt disappointed in Mr Carpenter for not taking a harder line. How do you think they’d feel with Bob Kucera going back?

BLACK

Well I think that’s an extremely relevant point. I mean I think that whatever the arguments for and against Kucera coming back are it would not look at all good in the light of what’s been happing in the last couple of weeks. I mean Alan Carpenter’s handling of the John D’Orazio thing clearly was just politically unsound – he just simply got it wrong. While John D’Orazio, I think, was a very successful minister in many respects, the fact is, to allow one transgression after another and then still try to keep him in Cabinet, really was quite a serious error, as was his suggestion he was being moved to sort of minor portfolios, which in fact didn’t thrill people who have disabled children and so on. So I think that was not at all well handled and so I think there would be a real perception around if Bob Kucera came back now that really that either Alan Carpenter’s got it wrong, or he doesn’t have control of the situation, of either the ministry or the caucus.

MALLET

I’d love to know the audience’s position on this. Give us a call if you’d like to be part of this discussion on Bob Kucera…

David, from what you understand within the party, how do you think this is being received?

BLACK

Well, as I say, there will be some people who had their hands up for ministerial posts already who will not be at all excited and… I mean there have been various people, Tony McRae, parliamentary secretary at the present time, is certainly one; Jay Radisich is another one. There are a number of young hopefuls who really see themselves as having, you know, a future career, and who undoubtedly were lining up for this post, and I don’t that they’ll be terribly excited if they see this happen. So whilst there will be people like Carol Martin who feel that Bob should come back, there’ll be others who I think would not, you know, be all that excited…

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MELLET

Do we know of Mr Kucera’s sort of backing within the party? Is he part of a faction?

BLACK

Well that’s a tricky situation. I mean the faction situation’s quite complex. But I would have thought that Bob Kucera’s position originally was very much based on his previous experience as a senior officer in the police force, and the fact that he received from Geoff Gallop – virtually instantly – a very senior portfolio in health, suggests that it was his standing, if you like, in the community and that kind of thing which promoted him rather than factional support. So the fact that he did so well so quickly undoubtedly came from those kinds of issues. So I would be surprised if there’s a strong degree of factional support for this.

MELLET

I was very interested to read the comments by Labor MP Carol Martin, raising concerns that Dr Gallop was unwell during the time he asked Mr Kucera to resign, and therefore that decision was, well, in fact the words are: ‘Someone who is suffering from mental illness, they’re not a fit witness to their own decisions’.

BLACK

Well I think… I was very surprise indeed that a member of the Labor caucus would make such a comment. I mean there are two factors, firstly, I mean the Premier made all sorts of decisions, and I don’t know whether she’s trying to suggest all of the decisions he was making in October, November and December were haywire, but the other thing is that I don’t think there’s any evidence to suggest that anything that took place in that time was… any decisions were done other than in terms of the normal factors and criteria, and the decision of Bob Kucera to resign at the time seemed imminently the right thing to do. I mean he had – unwittingly or not – he had transgressed in a serious principle in terms that he was present in Cabinet and voting on something in which he was… there was a direct financial interest. Now obviously in the light of subsequent events perhaps, you know, the guidelines have to be drawn up more carefully, and maybe particularly when the company is only indirectly linked to the decision that’s being made, but I’m very surprised that Carol Martin made that comment and I wouldn’t think it would have a great deal of support.

MELLET

And she’s also called for Bob Kucera to be reinstated.

BLACK

Well, I mean, there may well be others who feel like she, that Bob Kucera was, if you like, a fall guy for the rest of the Government and that really, you know, he’s served his time and he ought to be able to return, but that’s a completely different issue.

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MELLET

David, we’ve had a call from Phillip and I wonder if you’d just stay with me while we talk to him…

Phillip, you’re on the line with David Black, political analyst from Curtin University.

PHILLIP (CALLER)

… look, my comment on this is that it seems to me as a one-time Labor voter many, many years ago, but unable to vote for the Liberals and therefore unable to be satisfied other than through the minor parties, and of course none of them ever get elected, is that the Labor Party seems to be so disorganised that you’re likely to be as, or as likely to be attacked from within the Labor Party if you’re a Labor parliamentarian as you are to be attacked from without. It seems to me that they have talent both at State and Federal level, possibly more talent than the Libs, but the Libs are better organised and better marshalled and protect each other, and therefore seem to last longer as a result. I’ll stay and listen to your comment on that, David.

BLACK

Well my comment would be that I don’t disagree with your comment that, you know, the members of the Labor Party often suffer all sorts of problems in dealing with their so-called friends, and the factional fights in Victoria recently in the Labor Party recently are a classic case of that. Where I am not inclined to agree is to suggest that the Liberal Party are very much better at that kind of thing. I would have thought that some of the deep divisions that have developed in the Western Australian Liberal Party, particularly around Noel Crichton- Browne and so on, and some of the fights that have been going in the Victorian Liberal Party recently suggest that there are also … you know, the same issues arise there. The trouble is a political party… being in a political party is the way to get somewhere in politics. Regrettably, or otherwise, the minor parties don’t in the end give secure ministerial positions, so people join the major parties, and they’re ambitious and it’s often their own colleagues who are the ones that are in their way, whether in terms of being endorsed for a seat or getting a place in the ministry. So I certainly agree that you frequently suffer from attacks from your colleagues, but I suggest that that was on both sides.

MELLET

David, you just mentioned the Liberals and their sort of the things that have been going on within their party. How do you think Paul Omodei is doing at the moment?

BLACK

Well Paul Omodei is clearly trying to smooth things down. I mean if the circumstances when he succeeded were extremely… but not just the fact that Matt Birney was pushed aside, but also the suggestion by Rob Johnson and others that this reflected deeper divisions, and we have to remember the fact that the very reason we have one-vote, one- value in now for the Legislative Assembly is because of what happened 5

in the northern suburbs, and the way in which the member who was not endorsed then was… provided the key vote. So I think what Paul Omodei is trying to do at the moment is, having come in in perhaps what might be called, you know, fairly shaky circumstances, is trying to sort of smooth everything down, and to give him his due I would say that in the last few weeks the focus on the internal disputes in the Liberal Party have faded away, so it appears as though he has got the team for the moment at least working together, and he can then concentrate on his very difficult task, which is to raise his own profile and that of the Opposition enough to win the election.

MELLET

Do you believe he will be the leader going up to the election?

BLACK

Well that of course… there are those who still speculate as to whether he means to or not – that he’s really holding the line for someone like Troy Buswell, who is perhaps the longer term leader for the party, and, you know, time will tell. But, I mean, there certainly have been successful leaders in the past who’ve not necessarily been the strongest member of the team, but who have the capacity to keep the team together, you know, a classic case of that in the years past was David Brand.

MELLET

Okay, let’s go back to the Kucera issue, we’ll call it…

TIM (CALLER)

Look, yeah, when I woke up and read the article in the paper regarding the Gallop position on Kucera, I was just appalled that… with the suggestion that his health problems were a reason around it. I mean he just… he was just policing a code of conduct that all the ministers knew about. Kucera sort of, you know, he knew what was in store, and I think, you know, in regard to that, Carpenter’s really got to get a handle on these factional, you know, appointments, because, you know, D’Orazio… D’Orazio breached a code of conduct, and we knew he was at fault and Carpenter didn’t act as quickly as he should have, and I think if Alan’s going to wake up to, you know, reading these sort of articles in the paper, he’s really going to have a bit of a problem, a real struggle.

BLACK

Well, actually, I do think that’s a good point. There’s no doubt that Alan Carpenter made, what I thought, was a very good start in which he really did seem to be trying to take very sensible lines. For example, I thought his attempt to work more constructively with the Commonwealth Government was in fact a very wise move. It seems to me he has been caught well and truly in the crossfire, and the handling of the D’Orazio thing was extremely unfortunate, and it’s certainly been a severe setback to him, because it seems as though he’s putting other interests ahead of the kind of basic principles. So I think it’s certainly a time now when they have to stand firm, and that’s why I agreed with Tim, I was very surprised at the remarks made, and the fact that they were publicised in that way, and 6

particularly the reference to the premier’s capacity to make a decision, which most of us thought at the time was a perfectly reasonable decision.

MELLET

Do you think it’s a bit like sport, you know, these guys are going into the sin bin, and … just temporarily, and then, you know, they’re going to be put back in place?

BLACK

Oh, it’s perfectly possible for people to be put back in place, and as I say, the case I quoted of Bill Grayden who, you know, who was put back. But there is usually a fairly reasonable time before this happens, and it also depends on how senior and critical the politician is considered by the Premier. I mean, it has to be admitted that in the end the price the ministers pay all too often depends on how important they are to the Government, as much as the sin they’ve committed. And I think the feeling probably is that Bob Kucera’s sin was strictly quite wrong in terms of the principles, but probably, if you look at it closely, he wasn’t really up to no good, if you like it that way, in fact, I would have thought that John D’Orazio’s problems were much more clear cut, a much more obvious reason for him leaving the Ministry than Kucera, but nevertheless, the Kucera was a violation of the principle, and therefore I think most people thought at the time it was the right decision.

MELLET

Do you think he’ll have much competition?

BLACK

Well, I’m sure there’s a lot of people who are hoping to achieve this particular entry, and, you know, and I’m sure there will be strong competition for those ministerial positions.

MELLET

Well, I think we’d better let you go, ‘cause your mobile’s ringing. Thanks David Black.

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