contributions 2 (1) : 99 - 127

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conceptual history, memory, and identity: an interview with reinhart koselleck1 Javiér Fernández Sebastián Universidad del País Vasco, Spain Juan Francisco Fuentes Universidad Complutense de Madrid, Spain

jfs/jff Among the many subjects you have worked on throughout your ca- reer, we would like to concentrate on those related to the methodology of in- tellectual history, especially conceptual history. We will then go on to make you a few questions about your recent work on memory and identity. conceptual history: questions on method. jfs/jff ����������������������������������������������������������������As historians interested in how your reflections on method come to play with historiography, we would like to say that your work has made us reconsider the relationship between old and new, tradition and innovation. In this sense, some of the basic premises of Begriffsgeschichte, in our opin- ion, greatly contribute to expose the misleading nature of the dichotomy be- tween continuity and rupture, a separation that traditionally undermines the adequate comprehension of change and of future historical developments. Getting over the faux dilemma which pits continuity against rupture, perma- nence against innovation – which linguistically can be approached by your proposal of what could be called “diachronic synchronicity,” which are the layers of time – undoubtedly adds to and refines historical analysis. Now, as you have many times stated, given that reality can never be encompassed by language, that there is always an insurmountable gap between facts and con- cepts, what is your opinion on the use of categories such as continuity and rupture as heuristic tools in factual history? Does it seem to you that this po- larization might still be useful, or should it be abandoned? 100 an interview with reinhart koselleck jfs/jff you have stated in many situations that history is full of recurring structures structures of recurring is full history that situations you many in have stated present themselves as unique and as repetition. Therefore, speaking of/refer speaking Therefore, repetition. as and unique as themselves present tween the historical paths followed by Cromwell and Napoleon, or between between or Napoleon, and Cromwell by followed paths historical the tween find possible to definitely be Itwould past? ofthe facts and words the to tive contradictorily which a to set with and ofevents discourses deal accumulated repetitions simply analogies historians project from his or her own perspec own her or his from project historians analogies simply repetitions event, historical each of singularity the on emphasis historicist the to ring ed centuries over the centuries. However, is it correct to treat these and other other and these However,to is ittreat correct over centuries. the ed centuries be Revolution, French the Revolution and English the between coincidences speeches registered by Thucydides and other political arguments formulat arguments political other and Thucydides by registered speeches and phenomena. Is history composed of truly recurring phenomena, or are are or phenomena, recurring truly of composed history Is phenomena. and

At the political level, it was a very rapid process, lasting only a or year it rapid a lasting level, process, was very At political the East Germany was quickly integrated into the new German republic. republic. into new the German integrated quickly was Germany East pected. This example proves that there are different levels of analy of levels different are there that proves example This pected. gradual and transformation continuous – fewer much are there ple, plied. If notice is we there a that we lookgreat will history at political ferent forms of rupture, and the most difficult task is to establish an is totask establish most difficult the and of ferent forms rupture, linguistic the at and level social and political the At rupture. follow rk transformation are the main trends. In contrast, political events fre events political contrast, In trends. main the are transformation tegration is under way and is also occurring at a pace slower than ex at a pace slower than occurring also is and way under is tegration rupture. The is a rupture. history latest ofstage good example ofGerman this. exam for history, linguistic in Meanwhile, ruptures. of number crease in communication between the eastern and western portions portions western and eastern the between communication in crease both from mentalities of integration However, integration. cepted quently destroy continuities. Often, revolutionary events or reforms orreforms events revolutionary Often, continuities. destroy quently ap be they should events of set what to or level what at is question of the country. In the midst of this, a very complicated economic in economiccomplicated very a this, of midst the In country. the of sis that should be taken into account in any debate about continuity debatecontinuity about any in account into taken be should that sis for words, or,half other later, in years Fifteen behind. lags sides still ac easily West and East the in counterparts both Furthermore, so. and rupture. and in substantial any represent not does still change this generation, a oflevels and forms different these all between adequate relationship dif and continuity of forms different are there level, economic and One One of the faced greatest challenges by consists of historians having The categories of continuity and rupture are still useful. The useful. still are rupture and continuity of categories The ------Skinner almost four decades ago. decades four almost Skinner would be going against the arguments convincingly put forth by Quentin Quentin by forth put convincingly arguments the against going be would lar events unfolding in fundamentally different contexts? On the other hand, On contexts? the hand, other different in fundamentally events unfolding lar if we apply this same logic to the history of political thought, would it be thought, pos of political logic to history the same we if apply this sible to take for granted the existence of “perennial issues?” Accepting this this Accepting issues?” “perennial of existence the granted for take to sible or moreas at orleast less simi structure, a repetitive bearing as cases similar The ordinary historian would rather leave these subjects out, assum out, subjects leave these rather would historian Theordinary Florentine or French model or any other model, however the struc the however model, other any or model French or Florentine find explicit references to recurring factors in this typein factors ofthis findreferencesexplicit ideological torecurring her work only to the study of concrete, singular facts derived from from derived facts singular concrete, of study the to only work her who tend and common historians to structures. overlook similarities prove that there are deep connections between problems that are for are problems that between deep connections are there prove that citi of equality the of question the to given was thought of plenty fectly possible that in certain passages of the Bible or in the works works the in or Bible the of passages certain in that possible fectly rk ture of the argument repeats itself and I would not go as far as say as far as go not would I and itself repeats argument the of ture model political a is, that democracy, of type ideal an course, of tify, possi the about think to interesting is It strategies. political today’s oftions scope on great reflect and itas a whole. For itexample, is per tain references to the repetitive elements in them. We will seldom will We them. in elements repetitive the to references tain docu many are there that sure am I Spain. in period fascist the to ing that they belong to theologians or sociologists, and limit his or his limit and sociologists, or theologians to belong they that ing of similarity the that I believe and out lived and differently, mulated similarities the that believe I similarity. superficial a is this that ing of the realm movement, unless it is an ideology such as French Jacobinism. The Jacobinism. French as such ideology an is it unless movement, con usually not do sources primary these But era. this from ments ble transformations of our political arguments and strategies based based strategies and arguments political our of transformations ble transforma historical and thoughts of amount enormous an bilize on these arguments. It is a well-known fact that in Ancient Greece Greece Ancient in that fact well-known a is It arguments. these on for useful be would that arguments certain find could we Plato of singular sources. Take, for example, the historical sources that refer refer that sources historical the Take, for example, sources. singular goes beyond what we have been structures used from to today’s learn according to which the people governs itself (albeit in the limited limited the in (albeit itself governs people the which to according iden to possible is it literature this all in And etc. administration, zens, the best way to preserve the liberty of citizens, active or passive active of citizens, liberty the way to best preserve the zens, In order to properly answer this question I would have to mo to have would I question this answer properly to order In polis ). Of course this model is in no way identical to the the to identical way no in is model this course Of ). ------101 an interview with reinhart koselleck 102 an interview with reinhart koselleck whether the different concepts of democracy – direct democracy, representa democracy, direct – democracy of concepts different the whether jfs though the structure of arguments and strategies remain basically the same? the basically remain strategies and of arguments structure the though con be they would Or concept. same the to refer actually discourse through centuries the throughout by actors manipulated are – etc. that democracy tive cepts that become of importance depending upon certain circumstances, al circumstances, certain upon depending importance of become that cepts

But, going beyond these unquestionable analogies, the question is is question the analogies, unquestionable these beyond going But, Athens at the time of Aristotle, although Saint Thomas of Aquinas Aquinas of Thomas Saint although Aristotle, of time the at Athens Jacobines represented themselves as true Romans. That is how they they how is That Romans. true as themselves represented Jacobines were portrayed by Jacques-Louis David, with an ideology mirroring mirroring ideology an with David, Jacques-Louis by portrayed were produced by the participation ofand the question ofproduced all by how the participation to make ferent authorities oppose each other, theological and civil, monastic monastic civil, and theological other, each oppose authorities ferent we deal are measure what in questions, or constant perennial facing rk uses many Aristotelian arguments probably because of the many many the of because probably arguments Aristotelian many uses technique or art, a historical art that consists of linking chains of chains linking of consists that art historical a art, or technique for a democracy analogies few useful actually ty. are Therefore, there of However, period. republican the of Romans virtuous the of that to that of government of a small number of citizens. The structural Thestructural citizens. of number small a of government of that to of that to similar not is Europe Medieval of constitution dual the sometimes we do how furthermore, and challenges, permanent to ing with problems that, although unique, are persistent and respond are persistent unique, although problems with ing that, situations novel when Even arguments. new find rarely will we racy, democ representative least at or democracy, direct of favor in ment par Jacobine of sect the of part were who those for level, ideological cy. There is no doubt that in both cases the problem was restricted restricted was problem the cases both in that doubt no is There cy. dif made that duality a was there Ages Middle the during example, For patterns. recurring as well as singularities find and dis them to ablecuss be will we levels, three these unprece and distinguish we If singular, dented. unique, truly are that questions with deal discovery the includes that perspective long-term broad a in events argu the Beneath challenge. a remains decisions political common the at salvation, of promise a was It thing. such no is there course, of recurring structures. structures. of recurring similarities between Florentine democracy and Athenian democra Athenian and democracy Florentine between similarities and urban, with the Church opposing civil power. It is evident that that evident is It power. civil opposing Church the with urban, and a constitutes this And past. the from adapted are arguments arise

Not necessarily. We must understand in which sense we are are we sense which in understand must We necessarily. Not ------jfs

The purely synchronic explanation is not an explanation… not an is explanation synchronic The purely would be impossible, because if all that surrounds us were new and and new were us surrounds that all if because impossible, be would which would be boring. But terribly if we decide is all that new, living lationship between old structures and new meanings, but we cannot but we cannot new and meanings, old structures between lationship explain ableto be never will we events unique radically as events lar py himself with these analogies, because if we simply look at singu at look simply we if because analogies, these with himself py for example, as a result of technical change. And as we approach the the approach we as And change. of technical result a as forexample, rk uation of speech. In my opinion it is no longer a question of decid of question a longer no is it opinion my In speech. of uation ties. If we decide that all is recurring, then nothing would be new, be would nothing then recurring, is all that decide we If ties. a as language the in introduced semantics new the observe to tant sit synchronic the in lies language ofevery potential diachronic the from separated be cannot They account. into dimensions both take will something because them explain to able be not will We them. the conference the ing. Therefore, a minimum of repetition is required in order to un to order in required is repetition of minimum a Therefore, ing. complexre this We define therefore must of experiences. new result impor is it meanings, new and structures old between relationship lan a in innovation of capacity the is examined be must what rather - but diachronic or the synchronic to- the use dimension which ing always must one necessary, always is perspectives diachronic and ic occu to duty the has Thehistorian oldsituations. with resemblance invested with hopes and expectations, and thus we need to under to need we thus and expectations, and hopes with invested each other. Saussure himself, in his analysis of language, says that that says language, of analysis his in himself, Saussure other. each of of on of depends course the the action, a event, single explanation bear that conditions due certain to surface they that given different, curs at a purely logical level. In reality, our life experience is always always is experience life our reality, In level. logical purely a at curs what might happen derstand tomorrow. the subject This ofis exactly guage that might be centuries old, and how innovation is produced, produced, is innovation how and old, centuries be might that guage stand how these relate to other variables. variables. to other relate how these stand liv on keep to ability and knowledge the lack would we surprising, new. is all that state sequence of events… always be missing. Any explanation, including those directed to the the to directed those including explanation, Any missing. be always too never are raises it issues the although strong, as not is analogy

Certainly, it is not. Combining and integrating the synchron the integrating and Combining not. is it Certainly, From a strictly logical point of view there are two possibili two are there view of point logical strictly a From 2 I will be giving tomorrow. Of course, this is what oc what is this tomorrow. course, Of giving be I will ------103 an interview with reinhart koselleck 104 an interview with reinhart koselleck jfs/jff historians are not so concerned with methodological questions and in fact fact in and questions methodological with concerned so not are historians tion of facts. On the other hand, in the specific field of conceptual history, history, conceptual of field specific the in hand, other the On facts. of tion ae cnenn te ocle lnusi tr ad otmdriy sever post-modernity, and turn linguistic so-called the concerning bates don’t you think that, in addition to addition in that, think you don’t Since feel they jadedclose todebates by these positivism. sterile and theories, state that the analysis of sources are enough to give an adequate interpreta adequate an give to enough are sources of analysis the that state de the of spite in and century twentieth the of decades last the in sciences and practice other approaches? other practice and thus, and, reflexive not are that practices research pursue still historians al

Spanish lexicon. I however would not adopt such normative bench normative such adopt not would however I lexicon. Spanish history, conceptual history, as well, is also unable to explain a cer a explain to unable also is well, as history, conceptual history, past and future gradually takes shape, while the new structure of lan structure new the while shape, takes gradually future and past internal (4) and dispute ideological strong (3) of time a at politicized, fashioning new interpretations of existing sources. There is a lack lack a is There sources. existing of interpretations new fashioning rk temporalization of concepts. This is how temporalization between between temporalization how is This concepts. of temporalization or sources new including by only event particular or “incident” tain the “true concepts” that correspond to this or that notion, and they they and notion, that or this to correspond that concepts” “true the are which know they that truth,” “the know they that presume they Somehow beliefs. dogmatic their threaten to seems some for that in are them of many that is jurists and theologians, law, of field the my project of a lexicon is based on four hypothesis, namely that at a at that namely hypothesis, four on based is lexicon a of project my mark or any other, because my experience with fellow theorists in in theorists fellow with experience my because other, any or mark the with case the be to seems what is which benchmark, normative certain point in time (1) language became more democratic and (2) and democratic more became language (1) time in point certain collide with their own normative views. I have discussed much with with much discussed have I views. normative own their with collide approach an concepts, of history descriptive a conceiving ofcapable what is This approaches. and perspectives several admits concepts guage develops. This new structure ends up affecting all concepts. concepts. all up ends affecting structure new This develops. guage of questions and hypothesis that can be contested and contrasted by by contrasted and contested be can that hypothesis and questions of specialists in historical semantics and other academics. For example, For example, academics. other and semantics historical in specialists some of them, and in not few occasions I had to leave things at that.. atthat.. toleavethings had I notoccasions few in and someof them, are not willing to admit a conceptual historical analysis that will will that analysis historical conceptual a admit to willing not are a as liberalism use and attention our focus to example for us allows In spite of the epistemological challenges faced by the historical historical the by faced challenges epistemological the of spite In

The first part of your question does not apply only to factual factual to only apply not does question your of part first The As for the second question, certainly the historical study of study historical the certainly question, second the for As Begriffsgeschichte , it is possible to apply to possible is it , ------– are questioned and converted into something contingent, ambiguous, and and ambiguous, contingent, something into converted and questioned are – “ Alvarado, Francisco as – For some of them it is really hard to confer academic legitimacy to a study study a to legitimacy academic confer to hard really is it them of some For jfs worldview – in nineteenth-century Spain. On the other hand, we certainly certainly we hand, other the On Spain. nineteenth-century in – worldview jff who those precisely are “liberalism” and philosophers” of “liberal who speak have tried to make the writing reflect the dispute and controversy surround controversy and dispute the reflect writing the make to tried have philosophical view). view). philosophical follow an ideological ideological an follow unstable. During a recent debate in Paris about the new methods in the his the in methods new the about Paris in debate recent a During unstable. that, without a doubt, liberalism constituted the dominant language – and and – language dominant the constituted liberalism doubt, a without that, tory of political thought I could really sense this suspicion. this sense really Icould thought of political tory nervous when confronted by the simple possibility that the concepts they are are concepts the they that when by confronted nervous simple the possibility constitutionalists first the to connected pamphlets and periodicals of mass the (in champions their than detractors their by employed frequently more initially were – them among liberalism movement– express that roconcepts mac modern some that notice to curious is it way the By concept. each ing it is practiced in Germany – completely reconstructing the history of con of history the reconstructing completely – Germany in practiced is it background in law at the Bilbao Congress. He said that the concept of prop ofconcept the that said He Congress. Bilbao the at law in background erty had not varied substantially in centuries, that it has remained quite the the quite remained has it that centuries, in substantially varied not had erty not does however, insistence, our for reason Thepreju liberalism. certain of favor a in dice it, put have you as or, thrust, normative certain a contains of the history of concepts unwarranted by a normative perspective. They get get They perspective. normative a by unwarranted concepts of history the of the ones that is comes attention to that thing first the for example, ofCádiz, same since Roman times (laughter). Yes, that was fun. fun. was Yes, (laughter). that times Roman since same grounding epistemological own up their make which - worktowith used so history. conceptual towards hold jurists most contempt even and suspicion

Yes, I think you are right when you say that our our that say you when right are you Yes,think I This question reminds me of a statement made by a participant with a with aparticipant by made me ofa statement reminds question This The most important theologians frequently incur in errors and mis and errors in incur frequently theologians Theimportant most On the other hand, I fully agree with you when you talk about the the about talk you when you with agree fully I hand, other the On Nevertheless, there is no doubt that compared to compared doubtnothat is there Nevertheless, into hypothesis or into concepts open into tohypothesis debate, we would be able do they if best be would It prejudices. their of because interpretations changed their prejudices into hypothesis. By converting prejudices prejudices converting By hypothesis. into prejudices their changed ask ourselves freely if it is possible or not to accept such thing. thing. or possible it not is to such accept if freely ourselves ask But perhaps I have not understood your question. question. your not understood Ihave But perhaps parti pris parti El Filósofo Rancio Filósofo El , but derives from the fact that it seemed to us us to seemed it that fact the from derives but , ”- most arduously oppose this new new this oppose arduously ”- most Diccionario Begriffsgeschichte sometimes sometimes as as ------105 an interview with reinhart koselleck 106 an interview with reinhart koselleck jfs/jff less suggests an epistemological problem. Certainly, given that there there that given Certainly, problem. epistemological an suggests less is no possible experience without concepts - albeit we cannot deny ex deny cannot we albeit - concepts without experience possible no is proach, centered on eighteenth and nineteenth-century Spain, is perhaps perhaps is Spain, nineteenth-century and eighteenth on centered proach, ulate facts and give them meaning. Don’t you think that, based on these that, Don’t meaning. them give youand think facts ulate tralinguistic realities - in our post-kantian and post-positivist world it world post-positivist and post-kantian our in - realities tralinguistic neverthe comprehension linguistic its and facts of reality concrete the more sensitive to semantic transformations that occur that in more a sensitive toshort span oftransformations semantic time cepts and following words through the course of many centuries – our ap our – centuries many of course the through words following and cepts on the conceptual comprehension of those human observers who artic who observers human those ofcomprehension conceptual the on seems hard to imagine any historical event “in itself” that does not rely notrely does that itself” “in event historical any imagine to hard seems and are connected to everyday political conflict. conflict. political to everyday connected are and

language, the slow pace of long-term changes and also the linguis the also and changes long-term of pace slow the language, Mya is, that therefore, exclusive unique, and hypothesis long- length. potential, the capacity of meaning, accumulated through constant constant through accumulated meaning, of capacity the potential, the about think must we end, other the at However, language. plied and Atdefinite concreteproduced coordinates. onewithin end ofthe fer to a singular and unique situation. This is an aspect of the con the of aspect an is This situation. unique and singular a to fer rk the beginning, the similarity or compatibility between the language the language between or compatibility the similarity the beginning, times give rise to new things. things. to new rise give times some that adaptations as well as situations, concrete to applied tics each of roots the analyze to necessary is It work. at is process term be can words if rate, any At centuries. past the for transformation into account that language is always inscribed in unique situations, situations, unique in inscribed always is language that account into elements of language that possess a capacity of meaning and pos and meaning of capacity a possess that language of elements ofap oruniqueness singularity onthe insists that theory ceptualist old usages is what causes translations to reveal different shades and and shades different reveal to translations causes what is oldusages sentence structure to vary, with diverse modulations of depth and and depth of modulations diverse with vary, to structure sentence constant in been have that use syntactical and semantic of sibilities re always would it that given change, not could meaning spectrum, taking historian, of the analysis the and agents historical by spoken different with dealing are we since perception your in correct seem and continual use of words through the centuries. The recurrence of The use of recurrence the centuries. and continual words through the to due precisely is it situations unique and concrete to applied on, from Thedepends projects. and also question cultures academic Your insistence on the need to carefully distinguish between between distinguish carefully to need the on Yourinsistence

Your critique is interesting, but I do not agree with it. It it. might with but I do not agree interesting, is Your critique ------premises, it is hard to sustain a strict distinction between “facts” and and “facts” between distinction strict a sustain to hard is it premises, their linguistic apprehension? linguistic their flection. As Marxism would have it: Being is the guide of conscious of guide the is Being it: have would Marxism As flection. Sometimes my socialist colleagues attack me saying that I produce I that saying me attack colleagues socialist my Sometimes we insist that reality depends on language, a historian of economics a historian on language, depends reality that we insist has to do with what you are trying to answer: this is my point this of toview. answer: to has what do you trying with are deter linguistically is everything that says he when Gadamer low conditions lute on real the dependence of ideologies mentalities and rk these senseless things, linguistic absurdities that are far from real from far are that absurdities linguistic things, senseless these meth applied be can them of Both positions. extreme these tween contra the on others, For reality. of priority radical a expresses that that whatever direction is taken, there will inevitably be a materi a be inevitably will there taken, is direction whatever that insist always I Nevertheless, other. each oppose to them drive that reasons different the to understand try and arguments different the imagination.” The argument therefore depends on the methodolog the on depends therefore Theargument imagination.” pres the and necessities basic the is it while tool, helpful a simply is much how of regardless course, Of language. from independent is reality that thinking in naïve very are they that ity. However, I think to order in enough not are positions these view my in But mined. are facts these What facts. of interpretation linguistic the in lies ity prior the goes, that as far as and, everything mediates language ry, position a is This consciousness. than stronger is fact in and ness ical choices made by each one and we can limit ourselves to examine to choices examine ical ourselves made by oneeach limit weand can between the extreme positions. We always have to choose between between choose to have always We positions. extreme the between can always reply to that saying: “Very well, but in my work language mywork language butin well, “Very saying: that to reply always can convergence possible no is there and investigation good a develop question originally presented. I would say that the main point here here point main the that say would I presented. originally question one or another direction and this decision always depends on the the on depends always decision this and direction another or one fol can we around, way other the rather, Or not?why production, of abso the Marxist, good a as defend, to able are you If odologically. be choose may One interpretation. onlinguistic notdepends orare sures it causes that make people react and stimulate their linguistic linguistic their stimulate and peoplereact make that causes it sures re deformed a casting mirror a merely is language some, for such, As facts. to reaction a to language reduce would which of both sue, alistic or idealistic tilt to it. And this decision is inevitably taken at taken inevitably is decision this And it. to tilt idealistic or alistic

Yes, theoretically two extreme answers can be given on this is this on given be can answers extreme two Yes,theoretically ------107 an interview with reinhart koselleck 108 an interview with reinhart koselleck Begriffsgeschichte which emphasizes rhetoric and the different languages at play at a given mo given a at play at languages different the and rhetoric emphasizes which jfs ly, the advantages derived from combining the historical semantic analysis of analysis semantic ly, the derived from historical the combining advantages proaches, particularly that of the Cambridge School. Like Melvin Richter Richter Melvin Like School. Cambridge the of that particularly proaches, by inspired partially torical semantics of concepts and the history of political discourses. of political history the of and concepts semantics torical our stance eclectic this reasons to do so coincide those with of name Palonen, ing both perspectives in order to achieve an appropriate approach to the his the to approach appropriate an achieve to order in perspectives both ing strate persuasive and aspects pragmatic the to attention more paying ment, concepts, with Quentin Skinner’s and the Cambridge School’s methodology, Cambridge the and Skinner’s Quentin with concepts, support we When schools. both of reflections and suggestions the combine been have we works these In 2006. in outcome will hope we which century, twentieth the volumecovering new a in result will that project a conducting gies gies employed We by agents. to would know like what is your onopinion this, around thirty researchers, published in 2002 the the 2002 in published researchers, thirty around and our question is whether you believe or not in the possibility of integrat of possibility the in not or believe you whether is question our and itthat we Palonen, is and think notKari only possible, but convenient, also to los Conceptos Politicos y Sociales de la España del Siglo Siglo del España la de Sociales y Politicos Conceptos los

As you know, Juan Francisco Fuentes and I, with the collaboration of collaboration the with I, and Fuentes Francisco Juan know, you As The main issues involved in our discussions are still alive today today alive still are discussions our in involved issues main The language. I simply consider that the mean or factor for this change change this for factor or mean the that consider simply I language. the de that Stating battlefield. the is language arguments, linguistic past and future is internally contained by the concept. That is be is That concept. the by contained internally is future and past rk that economy is at the origin of everything or that language is the the is language that or everything of origin the at is economy that out carried is debate this perspective, my From level. linguistic the hns o ihe ad aoe ad h pit aoe isss on insists Palonen point the and Palonen and Richter to thanks in the realm of language in such a way that, regardless if you argue argue you if regardless that, way a such in language of realm the in internal temporality. I would like to believe that I have been able to able been have I that believe to like would I temporality. internal concept indicates stability or change, and that the division between between division the that and change, or stability indicates concept each that of language my analysis through to contribute discovering point. me on this with you agree Ihope that linguistically. curs to priority attributing as same the not is itself in linguistic is cision non- or linguistic for preference your of regardless factor; essential of opinion is necessarily language, that the theoretical dispute oc dispute theoretical the that language, necessarily is opinion of seems to be the thesis according to which each concept has its own own its has concept each which to according thesis the be to seems

I have attended debates with Skinner and Pocock in the past. past. the in Pocock and Skinner with debates attended have I , based on the diachronic depth and internal temporality of temporality internal and depth diachronic the on based , Begriffsgeschichte , as well as by other methodological ap methodological other by as well as , xix Diccionario de Historia de de Historia de Diccionario , and we are currently currently are we and , ------Skinner, who is a very strict historian in the field of hermeneutical his field the in of hermeneutical historian strict who a is very Skinner, I have the impression that they could go further in their comprehen their in further go could they that impression the have I and meaning its grasped have Pocock and Skinner both that think I If we want to analyze the progressive element, the trigger for trans for trigger the element, progressive the analyze to want we If logians and the arguments of the British revolutionaries impregnat revolutionaries British the of arguments the and logians least temporal changes, in style or function. or function. style in changes, temporal least play the importance of the vehement discourses of Presbyterian theo Presbyterian of discourses vehement the of importance the play case, any In issues. or problems certain to rise give to seems porality ply this implicit normativity to concepts from the past century and to and century past the from concepts to normativity implicit this ply ap retrospectively to adequate seem not does it and question, political that saying argument my contest could anyone that know I politics). formation, we must distinguish past from future. It is precisely the the precisely is It future. from past distinguish must we formation, tween our method and that of the Cambridge School, the term tem term the School, Cambridge the of that and method our tween there are no concepts void of normative content, but for me that is a is that me for but content, normative of void concepts no are there I pleased myto In am let case, speak go concepts of(I this… normative of all discuss to together get cannot we pity a truly is It concepts. tive todown him leads for example, that, and normative, tome excessively capacity in myanalytical his is judgment, that, tory, difference the true that the use that ofor these concepts at does in much not variation, entail being “table”, British or French the or Romans, the of “tabula” the now as a historian; it if nowwe would were as aboutbe thing a to a historian; talk different free of concepts the of analysis His concerns. normative by guided is Regarding objections. their answer to enough good not is English my make historical analysis based on it. One has to listen to what people what to listen to has One it. on based analysis historical make ral differences in the consciousness of speakers. Other concepts nev Other of consciousness speakers. the in differences ral tempo generates that concepts some of structure temporal internal become extremely repetitive. When I say “table” I can be referring to When I say “table” be repetitive. I referring can become extremely century. of the nineteenth the beginning after especially be observed ed with theology in the context of the Civil War. This is why Skinner Skinner why is This War. Civil the of context the in theology with ed seems republicanism seventeenth-century on based liberty and dom ertheless, can become subject to very small changes over time and and time over changes small very to subject become can ertheless, can that phenomenon a carries, it expectations future the in crease a implies loss of orpart evolution change naturally conceptual cause strikes me as a conventional historian concerned with a load concerned ofwith norma me historian a as conventional strikes meetings have we when that afraid am I but point, crucial ofsionthis of the load of the past contained in a concept and the consequent in consequent the conceptand a in contained past loadof the ofthe oee, oig ak o h psiiiy f snhss be synthesis a of possibility the to back coming However, ------109 an interview with reinhart koselleck 110 an interview with reinhart koselleck Hölscher and other German academics have proposed a comparative history history a proposed comparative have academics German other and Hölscher jfs/jff jfs very refined approach to the rhetorical tools used by historical agents. historical by used tools the rhetorical to approach refined very tory of European concepts? Does it seem viable to you the comparative study study comparative to you the viable it concepts?seem Does of European tory period the during Mexico) and Spain, Colombia, Brazil, (Argentina, tries initially entailed the study of a list of ten concepts in five different coun different five in concepts ten of list a of study the entailed initially of a handful of concepts in the five main languages Europe? of Western languages main five the of in concepts of ahandful “Three article orable mem the in your discussion mind in concepts. Having political of European Lucian know, you as Additionally, 1850. to 1750 from goes that transition of which world, Ibero-american the of history conceptual the comparing of and France, what would your opinion be concerning the undertaking of a what and France, would his your the opinion undertaking be concerning

Maybe the most interesting aspect of Skinner’s more recent work is its its more work recent is of Skinner’s aspect interesting most the Maybe

1960s, when I began practicing conceptual history. I visited a com a visited I history. conceptual practicing began I when 1960s, Take for example the use of the word the of use the example for Take parative literature professor in Paris, whose name I forgotwhose name (at my professorParis, age in literature parative found in the development of adequate hypotheses. of development hypotheses. adequate the found in original their what were to understand try and said have past the from rk rk used both in favor of and against change. Thus, it is possible to cre to possible is it Thus, change. against and of favor in both used tions tions in my conference topics tomorrow. are Obviously the linguistic observa some make shall I subject this to regards In structure. tive to do with the interrelation between languages, times, and cultures. cultures. and times, languages, between interrelation the with do to almost however, toan be thought…”. this, English I believe thought, happens quite this often). He “Let’s then do suggested: a comparative intentions, although the answer to this kind of question can only be be only can question of kind this to answer the although intentions, riddled with difficulties. I tried to do something of that sort in the in sort that of something do to tried I difficulties. with riddled its completion would require overcoming great difficulties that have that difficulties its great completion overcoming would require and complexity enormous presents project a Such task. impossible conceptual history lexicon encompassing French thought, German German thought, French encompassing lexicon history conceptual guistic potential relies on the repetitive power of power rhetoric. repetitive on the relies potential guistic of Hobbes. However, at the core of this subject lies a typically repeti typically a lies subject coreof this of However,Hobbes. atthe supported by repetition and, therefore, rhetoric is a tool that can be be can that tool a is rhetoric therefore, and, repetition by supported ate something new from a given topography, but its innovative lin innovative its but topography, given a from new something ate During the last months we the last have on embarked project ambitious an During

Well, such a project might be possible, but, at the same time, time, same the at but, possible, be might project a such Well, Yes, be can found, this for in his recent example, interpretation bürgerliche worlds” in reference to Germany, England, England, Germany, to reference in worlds” état in French, in the sense sense the in French, in ------jfs

Perhaps the main problem lies in trying to find a common language. language. a common to find trying in problem lies main the Perhaps German, and Slavic languages, given they dothat not have and all a languages, Slavic Latin German, well as the degrees of coordination in the evolution of each concept each of evolution the in coordination of degrees the as well word the with re the is State of meaning new The “State.” not and society, within why not compare the shifting languages of the colonizers and Ibero- and colonizers of the languages shifting why notthe compare very difficult task. Summing it up, it seems to me that it is very hard hard it up, isthat it very to it seems me Summing task. difficult very project would be more feasible and easy. In comparison it is much much is it comparison In easy. and feasible more be would project ferent worlds. Although sociologically speaking, we can say that at a at that say can we speaking, sociologically Although worlds. ferent rk just talked about (France, England, and Germany) create three dif three create Germany) and England, (France, about talked just to me. We need a language capable of incorporating historical and and historical incorporating of capable language a need We me. to conveniently. problems methodological to solve these as behind, is who and transformation of processes in lead the takes one German in occurs shift Thus semantic same the century. teenth in the same stage of capitalism, in reality each one of them is situ is them of one each reality in capitalism, of stage same the in tra different the to addition In cultures. and languages different in of State the meaning acquired group position, or meant status social – meaning of duplicity This century. seventeenth the in root. French, Spanish, and English have a Latin origin so that every every that so origin Latin a have English and Spanish, French, root. French, English, the of case the comparing than feasible more consideration chronological differences, which makes this project a project this makes which differences, chronological consideration into to take it would be necessary experiences, historical and ditions given moment these three historical experiences are contained with contained are experiences historical moment three given these of order (group or social category), that is of a status group or class class or group status a of is that category), social or (group order of social differences reflected in language. These three experiences we experiences three These language. in reflected differences social who show to necessary be would it sorts, all of differences semantic the end toward ofbut sometime notcentury, eighteenth the seven in German in occurs also – State as and group status a as time same of the oldsult of the transformation one and only becomes prevalent and Portuguese in Europe and in America? There is no doubt this this doubt no is There America? in and Europe in Portuguese and Spanish the of experience the of result a as populations american others. the from far ated very and lexical historical, to addition in made, is analysis comparative a if manner, In this French. in it had occurred after century and a half

Exactly. A meta-language would be necessary. This seems clear would seems clear This be necessary. A meta-language Exactly. And regarding your comparative conceptual history project, project, history conceptual comparative your regarding And Staat . Also in German, German, in Also . Staat , which for a long time time long a for which , état at the the at ------111 an interview with reinhart koselleck 112 an interview with reinhart koselleck memory, concepts,andcollectiveidentities. Starting with this last concept, don’t you think that strong political identi political strong that think you don’t concept, last this with Starting what a historian of nationalism would call “counter-identities.” call would of nationalism ahistorian what jfs/jff have in mind certain asymmetrical counter-concepts, upon which identities identities uponwhich counter-concepts, asymmetrical certain mind in have fective (or affective) acceptance of certain concepts by individuals that make make that individuals by concepts certain of acceptance (oraffective) fective them perceive themselves as essentially belonging – sometimes exclusively exclusively sometimes – belonging essentially as themselves perceive them ef of the result the as seen be or could gender nation class, party, as such ties brought to the fore in the last decades are memory and collective identity. identity. collective and memory are decades last the in fore the to brought are built, that become instruments for the becomeexclusion that of instruments are built, and others give to rise We particularly community? or collectivity reference that or this to – well as

Versailles Treaty until today as a particularly German ideology, be ideology, German particularly a as today until Treaty Versailles Scandinavia, Russia, or in Poland. Of course, they also had a Latin Latin a had also they course, Of Poland. in or Russia, Scandinavia, I understand that it would be very interesting to get into it, but it is is it but it, into get to interesting very be would it that understand I which Saussure convincingly studied and analyzed. Now this con this Now analyzed. and studied convincingly Saussure which very forceful linguistic policies. Therefore, the linguistic nation is not Therefore, policies. the linguistic linguistic forceful very rk form of experimenting with languages. It is a passionate subject and languages. with form of experimenting just a German invention, it also a French practice. However, the ideol However, the practice. a French it also invention, a German just ular, that is, everyday language, entails a transformation, a change change a transformation, a entails language, everyday is, that ular, truly very challenging. challenging. very truly politi modern to Latin from transformation gradual and tinuous vernac the to language Roman the of adaptation each translation, not allow linguistic minorities to flourish in their territory, all must must all territory, their in flourish to minorities linguistic allow not is why and this onnation, I a the insist linguistic political nation than cause from the linguistic point of view we are much more a cultural cultural a more much are we view of point linguistic the from cause education, but they either had to integrate Latin voiceslan into Latin had their tobut either education, integrate they Germany, in occur not does peoples Western the of terminology cal guistic nation and political nation is an invention of the nineteenth nineteenth the of invention an is nation political and nation guistic guages or create new words, processes that require a very different different very a require that processes words, new create or guages speak French and have historically been pushed in that direction by by direction that in pushed been historically have and French speak Brittany in living those and Basques the The Alsatians, French. speak aspect. The French also have a linguistic nation given that, as did they nation that, given The have a also aspect. French linguistic the since use in been has concept first The centuries. twentieth and Two other categories or analytical concepts that historiography Two has concepts historiography that other categories or analytical

To start out, I would say that the opposition between the lin the between opposition the that say would I out, start To ------“mythmaker”… jff

Which reminds me of Mohan’s definition of the intellectual as a as intellectual the of definition Mohan’s of me reminds Which “the collective identity” came from the German seven P’s: professors professors P’s: seven German the from came identity” collective “the Halbwachs invented a collective memory for the French republic republic French the for memory collective a invented Halbwachs So, if one focuses on detail it would be possible to find national differ it national would be possible to one find So, onif focuses detail with ideology. And my personal position concerning this subject is is subject this concerning position personal my And ideology. with won’t mind, I’ll keep my own individual and liberal personal posi personal liberal and individual own my keep I’ll mind, won’t press… , poets, politicians, who memory, priests, produced collective know that true memory is independent from the so-called collec so-called the from independent is memory true that know impregnated speakers of presuppositions linguistic on depends ly people might say, I know my own personal experiences and I will will I and experiences personal own my know I say, might people ht coe o 90 gv Fac a aeut fr o self-identifi of form adequate an France gave 1900, to close that, tion, which is the one I Therefore, collective memory trust.” is always memory my that is this to regards in position my and memory, tive years twelve during years Nazi the of memory collective the to ted that time. However, all of this was nothing more than an academic academic an than more nothing was this of all However, time. that identity based on collective memory in the world of monarchies of monarchies of world the in memory collective on based identity intent the with it use and it, produce it, for pay who those memory, collective of keepers the as themselves regard who people short, in suit to produced Memory identity. personal my constitute memory my in kept events the and them, memorized have I as expe just riences personal my keep to right the have I them. of any forgo not invention, a subject of professors. of professors. asubject invention, but ideology. And for me, it is not easy to be convinced by anything anything by convinced be to easy not is it me, for And ideology.but ences that are linguistically masked by different ideologies. ideologies. different by masked linguistically are that ences cation in an almost entirely monarchical Europe, in which France France which in Europe, monarchical entirely almost an in cation else what matter No else. nothing and experience my on depends ogy behind it is another question and is very different in either case. case. either in different very is and question another is it behind ogy other than my own personal experience. I shall always reply: “If you “If reply: always I shall experience. personal my own than other anything not is this me to safety… of sense a and trust instilling of I because me displeases memory collective of kind Any life. my of stood as an exception. This is how France was able to sustain its self- its able to sustain was how is France This exception. an as stood submit been have I that given memory, collective against strictly and Halbwachs. Instead of heading a national church of France, France, of church national a heading of Instead Halbwachs. and Durkheim by administered was case France’s in which ideology, an As for identity and collective memory I believe that it that strong I memory for believe As collective and identity ------113 an interview with reinhart koselleck 114 an interview with reinhart koselleck war, have finally been able to overcome a past that has for a long time been been time long a for has that past a overcome to able been finally have war, jfs/jff hanging over their consciences? over their hanging on the events ofdramatic these ofshed have plenty repercussion on light the impression that young Germans, the grandsons of those who fought in the the in fought who those of grandsons the Germans, young that impression wars world the of memory the on work Your memory. historical to related brate the sixtieth anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz do you have the the have you do ofAuschwitz liberation ofthe anniversary sixtieth the brate conscience of Europeans, specially the French and the German. As we cele we As German. the and French the specially Europeans, of conscience

Without personal resentment it will be However easier. it is extreme it resentment will Without personal to this. perspective professorial sober, Weber appliedavery Israel but it is still a delicate subject. It is hard to keep a free debate free a keep to hard is It subject. delicate a still is it but Israel learn how to live with them. These differences are similar to those those to similar are differences These them. with live to how learn in and States United the in friends Jewish many have I difficult, ly lated six million Jews, three million Poles and much more than six six than more much Polesand million three Jews, million six lated for people to die before we can have new events and information. information. and events new have can we before die to people for rk rk there is no true conflict and frankly, as to the existence of differ of existence the to as frankly, and conflict true no is there them Among want. they what say easily can they and terpretations the annihilation was so overwhelming that in this respect there is is there respect this in that overwhelming so was annihilation the a creates This disagreed. being is what upon agreement an is there no space for a free debate, meaning that it will be necessary to wait wait to necessary be will it that meaning debate, free a for space no in and views their express freely can they acts, the in notparticipate including the Slavs in this narrative because they insist on the sin the on insist they because narrative this in Slavs the including unbelieva these forced to acknowledge we are and Russians, million between the Germans and the Polish: Poles and Russians were treat were Poles Russians Polish: and the and Germans the between and one must inevitable are that prejudices certain are there because different, are positions although which, in those are disputes best ble which deaths took place in the past.” But the Jews opposed always ed with cruelty. This is why This – – I tobut cruelty. have tried celebrate failed ed the with you terms, the in past equal allows to common that with deal ground the that meto itseems Germans, the and French the between ences gularity of the extermination of the Jews, for it is assumed that Jews Jews that for Jews, itassumed of is the extermination of the gularity survival of people of Polish and Russian origin. I said “We annihi “We said I origin. Russian and Polish of people of survival since Jews of past the to comes it when difficult more something as the consequence of the action of intellectuals through language. language. through intellectuals of action the of consequence the as We would like to continue, if you allow us to, with a few questions questions few a with to, us allow you if continue, to Welike would

The conscience of the young generation seems clear. They did did They clear. seems generation young ofthe Theconscience nation the of analysis his in insight keen Weberexhibits Max ------War (1936-1939), we believe that the memory of such traumatic experience experience traumatic such of memory the that believe we (1936-1939), War with the much more flexible attitudes of the few survivors and of the families and the much the ofmorewith theoffamilies flexible attitudes fewsurvivors con that rules minimal certain to according act and reconcile to able were bloody Civil the by marked was century twentieth Spanish the that and wars jfs/jff following Franco’s death can be attributed to a wise management of mem of management wise a to attributed be can death Franco’s following tion of the militant left, indicates a will to avenge, which frequently collides collides frequently which avenge, to will a indicates left, militant the of tion por a for least at which, movement A movement. revisionist this with tune with along victims of corpses of search in grounds burial common of tions a complete propose some cases in and question into of model transition this have we years few past the In repetition. avoid its to order in experience this reevaluation of events and facts. Such an attitude is particularly common particularly is attitude an Such facts. and events of reevaluation being experienced in Spain – which includes the push to conduct exhuma conduct to push the includes which – Spain in experienced being put that movements revisionist certain of appearance the witnessing been circumstances that led to that catastrophe with the intent of learning from from learning of intent the with catastrophe that to led that the circumstances on reflect to defeated) the (specially everyone forced war of experience painful the that emphasizing were moment Spaniards that At regime. cratic democracy to transition Spain’s of success the observers, ac several to Therefore, cording neighbors. European our of that from ways many in differs other initiatives, such as the removal of monuments honoring Franco – is in in – is Franco of honoring monuments removal the as such initiatives, other among those, by forgetfulness and ory of victims. In fact, at times, it is possible to see the rhetoric of revenge serv revenge of rhetoric the see to possible is it times, at fact, In victims. of solidated the end of dictatorship and paved the way to a new liberal-demo new a to way the paved and dictatorship of end the solidated and heirs of Spain’s Second Republic. The wave of “memorialism” currently currently “memorialism” of Thewave Republic. SecondSpain’s of heirs and of of memory the defeatedthe guardians who those among deem themselves

We are aware of the cooperation of many French with the Nazis dur Nazis the with French ofmany cooperation ofthe aware We are were annihilated all at once because of Hitler’s ideology. And that is is that ideology. And of Hitler’s onceat because all annihilated were has some resemblance to the case I have been discussing. I am sure sure am I discussing. been have I case the to resemblance some has pens in Spain and its internal problems regarding its its regarding problems internal its and Spain in pens there are analogies. analogies. are there common this towards disposition a is there that proves existed tion preju since debate, of kind this into get to difficult very is It true… ing the war. We know that the simple consciousness that coopera that consciousness simple the that know We war. the ing one. French-German the as uncomplicated as not is debate the ing, eae bu te ainlscait Nz) at Pras ht hap what Perhaps past. (Nazi) national-socialist the about debate say was I as Therefore, memories. contaminate inevitably will dice Given that, Given for that, did Spain many reasons, not in the participate world franquistas and and antifranquistas franquista , who , past past ------115 an interview with reinhart koselleck 116 an interview with reinhart koselleck War (and thirty years since the death of the dictator). Based on the German German the on Based dictator). the of death the since years thirty (and War François Hartog’s argument, present in his book his in present argument, Hartog’s François jfs/jff victims. These discourses do not hesitate in prying open old do Theseare not wounds that discourses hesitate prying in victims. tablished between them? What would be the main difference between your your between difference main the be would What them? between tablished con of history the and memorials war and monuments on work your tween War Civil Spanish the of memory the fore the to bringing while terrorism in a country torn by ideological civil war, like Spain? like war, civil ideological by torn acountry in is which nationalists, Basque ends – of forthat radical example, different ing both of which, paradoxically, kill history. history. kill paradoxically, of which, both during the 80s in his famous book famous his in 80s the during es be could that points common the are what case, the is that if And, cepts. which you experience, know and well, although these cases, what are different of Basque of recent victims memory to the downplay fashioned evidently suggesting that we are entering an epoch of presentism and memorialism memorialism and presentism of epoch an entering are we that suggesting Civil the since gone by have years sixty though even healed, notentirely still are the foundations for the construction or mending of a common memory memory common a of mending or construction the for foundations the are approach to the study of these subjects and that proposed by Pierre Nora Nora Pierre by proposed that and subjects these of study the to approach

But if you deny the independence of then others you are immediately Europe, to Israelis, Poles, Germans, and so on. I think that, by ex by that, think I on. so and Germans, Poles, Israelis, to Europe, rk rk under pressure to suppress them. I believe that insisting on differ on insisting that believe I them. suppress to pressure under the only way. only the myit’s In judgment well. as would apply to Spanish the this tension, rule in this sort of subject. This is a criterion that could apply to all all toapply could that criterion a is This subject. of sort this in rule general the norm, the be should this that me to seems It memory. ence is the best way to contribute to peace and to common memory, memory, common to and peace to contribute to way best the is ence every way This masks. without differences debating and differences given that memory is divided. And to accept the latter, that mem that latter, the accept to And divided. is memory that given others based on mutual recognition. Recognition by and of both both of and by Recognition recognition. mutual on based others toward respect and independence their keep to chance the has one ory is divided, is better than trying to make up a single common single a up make to trying than better is divided, is ory semi-ironic position. The wave of memorialism is paradoxically pro is paradoxically The position. wave semi-ironic of memorialism peace. towards upfrontpredisposition an is there that assumes sides Could you explain if there is any methodological relationship be relationship methodological any is there if explain you Could

The rule I follow in this subject consists of always preserving preserving always of consists subject this in follow I rule The I know both works In well. I pretty general, agree with Hartog’s Lieux de Mémoire de Lieux Regimes d’Historicité Regimes ? Would you agree with with agree Wouldyou ? (2003) (2003) ------jff the memory of World memory the Italy? War Iin

What do you think of George Mosse’s and Mario Isnenghi’s work on work Isnenghi’s Mario and Mosse’s George of think you do What An authentic analysis of the past requires a theoretical approach approach theoretical a requires past the of analysis authentic An France and Germany, and I suppose France and Spain, are all sub all are Spain, and France suppose I and Germany, and France Lieux de Mémoire de Lieux German town with a very advanced cultural life, with a prolific lit prolific a with life, cultural advanced very a with town German Nora’s he attended my seminars. His work and my analysis of war memo war of analysis my and work His seminars. my attended he discussion and needed are view of points both Europe, of history provoke very similar emotional identifications. The difference lies difference The identifications. emotional similar very provoke can butI of Austria… Turkish consequenceofa invasion the piedas of favor in myself am I and dimension, subjective the of portance mean traditional the use to are we if history, subjective by placed rk fact In it. not outlive However I will hopefully. years, 20 in forgotten to invent acommon ideology.to invent Pierre Given ideologically. that a without rearranged doubt, are that, events real of memories of experience, subjective beyond goes that respecting the subjective experience, such as my own, but an analy an but own, my as such experience, subjective the respecting that saying are you memory on insist you If adjectives. these of ings re be should history objective that assumption the on based is it resented, but resented, Thoseis the the message in the same. who participated identi almost are messages symbolic the and iconography the rials, book the assumption that Strasbourg was liberated from German German from liberated was Strasbourg that assumption the book rr, eiiu, n telgcl rdcin ad hc ws occu was which and production, theological and religious, erary, medieval old an was it reality in when French, the by domination It’s might be history. a that towards trend attitude duced by a certain cal. Celebrative monuments in France, Italy, Germany and England England and Germany Italy, France, in monuments Celebrative cal. only in the helmets and type of uniform worn by the characters rep characters the by worn of uniform type and helmets the in only subject the is which identity, French constitutes what to ordinated should ensue. It is better to have this dispute and be open to it than than itto open be and dispute this have to better Itis ensue. should experience. subjective on rely solely not should happens what of sis im the doubtaboutno is There foolish. is that and of historians, sis analy objective the than important more much is history subjective assure you that you will not find this version in French books like like books French in version this find not will you that you assure the in find can one sure am I organized. is book the which around

I do not know Isnenghi, however Mosse I know well because because well know I Mosse however Isnenghi, know not do I Lieux de Mémoire Mémoire de Lieux . The fact is that, in order to interpret the common the interpret to order in that, is Thefact . refers only to France, the conflicts between between conflicts the France, to only refers ------117 an interview with reinhart koselleck 118 an interview with reinhart koselleck jfs

For those who know it, it must be much more much bitter… be it must it, who know For those Rotterdam gives a good response to this assertion when he says that that hesays when assertion this to response good a gives Rotterdam repre which dragon a killing appears always Geroge Saint Russia… Saint George killing the dragon, which started in Scotland, contin Scotland, in started which dragon, the killing George Saint I am sure that this opinion based on experience is more common more is experience on based opinion this that sure am I European wars had a common symbolical experience. This is exem is This experience. symbolical common a had wars European while ago, in which this is done to the words related to bourgeoisie bourgeoisie to related words the to done is this which in ago, while produces. for centuries other each against waging been we have we have to reflect upon this experience, otherwise the chance is lost. is lost. chance the otherwise experience, this upon to reflect we have ( it know not do who those for beautiful only is war have always used the same inscription suggesting how beautiful it is how beautiful suggesting inscription same used the always have a other, the on and, words and symbols common are there hand, languag different in concepts we look at specific for example, If, lar. plified by my argument about the tradition of using engravings of engravings using of tradition the about argument my by plified rk ued in England and soon reached the Netherlands, Bavaria, Poland, Poland, Bavaria, Netherlands, the reached soon and England in ued than we imagine. we imagine. than of Erasmus says. everyone what is that for one’ssince die to country, one: this find often will we monuments on tions their in similar are that but articulation specific their in differ that one On monuments. study we when place takes similar very thing some So, worlds. “citizenship” and bourgeois of plurality a is there iconic structure. Similarities are frequent. If we examine the inscrip If we frequent. are examine Similarities iconic structure. common way of using these symbols that are monuments. Symbols Symbols monuments. are that symbols these using of way common a just about talking were we work the in happens what is which es, point the from rationalization and visualization between difference quire a sweet taste if one is lucky to survive. This is the only chance chance only the is This survive. to lucky is one if taste sweet a quire inexpertis est pro patria mori patria pro est of view of conceptual history. I think both approaches are very simi very are approaches both think I history. ofconceptual ofview symbol for the aporetic situation the celebration of the absurd wars wars absurd the of celebration the situation aporetic the for symbol best the is This inverted… roles the by same the be would situation the country neighboring this in but country, neighboring the sents and citizenship in French, English, and German, we will notice that notice that we will German, and English, French, in citizenship and

Of course. However the bitterness of experiencing war may ac may war of experiencing bitterness the However course. Of The last part of your question is whether there is a precise precise a is there whether is question your of part last The ). But those who know it have a very different opinion and and opinion different very a have it know who those But ). . Germans, English, Italians, and the French, they they French, the and Italians, English, Germans, . Dulce et decorum decorum et Dulce Dulce est bellum bellum est Dulce ------seems to indicate that, as some would suggest, we are embarking on a jour a on embarking are we suggest, would some as that, indicate to seems - However, we have the impression that the social and cultural changes that that changes cultural and social the that impression the have we However, Historie n hs seta tx, eety rnltd no pns, o magnificent you Spanish, into translated recently text, essential this In and inparticularoftheconcepthistory ways been a gap between factual reality and its linguistic assimilation. Don’t assimilation. linguistic its and reality factual a between gap been ways jfs/jff on thecurrentcrisisofconcepts you have the impression that this gap has become too wide lately as a con a as lately wide too become has gap this that impression the have you direction, that lead in could evolution concept of of the the history you think lective memory was as numerous as the amount of social groups who kept kept who groups social of amount the as numerous as was memory lective the that histories; ofparticular profusion a by challenged being is – lectivity history. of concept modern the of evolution and genesis the reconstruct ly process? Therefore, the criticism coming from the the from coming criticism the Therefore, process? all-en the of fragmentation new a to lead could multiculturalism of peak now are we that evident so is This concept. the of erosion deep a producing there is enough evidence supporting the existence of such process? of such existence the supporting enough evidence is there of a a symptom much broader but not is rather unique concept the of history we correct, is observation our if And one history. only was there while them, col century, twentieth the of beginning the at Halbwachs Maurice for that modern meaning in the last two hundred years, that these concepts have ex have concepts these that years, hundred two last the in meaning modern that think you Do exaggerated? forecasts these Are modernity. to back ney such modernity of pillars of disintegration the and (e.g.Lyotard) authors ist col transcendent singular a to experience human of multitude the reduces con was it as such history, that impression the have we short, In mation. er singular collective names and are returning to their pre- their to returning are and names collective singular er with case the that possible be it would Moreover, condition? previous cept’s Do memory. as fragmented and multiple as is history today that say could mention to worthwhile is it topic, this On history. of concept compassing which metaconcept universal a as i.e. – Europe eighteenth-century in ceived occurred over the last decades and the crisis of the discipline of history are are history of discipline the of crisis the and decades last the over occurred sequence of the decay of many political and social concepts that acquired its its acquired that concepts social and political ofmany decay ofthe sequence asking ourselves if we are not on the verge of large-scale semantic transfor semantic large-scale of verge the on not are we if ourselves asking as the concepts of history, liberty/freedom, and progress - that are no long no are that - progress and liberty/freedom, history, of concepts the as to conthe as a return be interpreted transformation itif and does, could this

in the second volume of the the of volume second the in On the other hand, it is true that, as we were saying, there has al has there saying, were we as that, true is it hand, other the On Thirty years separate Thirty us from the publication of the entry Geschichtliche Grundbegriffe Geschichtliche

grands récits grands Sattelzeit post-modern (GG) in 1975. 1975. in (GG) Geschichte/ origin origin ------119 an interview with reinhart koselleck 120 an interview with reinhart koselleck If we accept this decline of our conceptual universe and the implosionof po the and universe conceptual of our decline this accept we If worth to take up a sort of “prospective history,” a history of the concepts of concepts the of history a history,” “prospective of sort a up take to worth know about the first conceptual revolution in the modern world, would it be it would world, the modern in revolution conceptual first the about know threshold the at be could we that think don’tyou concepts, social and litical longer no are they that and expectations generate to capacity their hausted the present time? And, as a conclusion, would Cicero’s aphorism “ aphorism Cicero’s would conclusion, a as And, time? present the reverse a be would this However century? eighteenth the of half second the field experience the of while stretched toconsiderably been have seems tions Sattelzeit nature of the future – it has become progressively harder to see the future as as future the see to harder become progressively ithas – future of the nature to soon world a ofup made always is it that given use little of times many is be rendered old, to a state of permanently changing things. changing of permanently old, to astate rendered be ety generated by an imminent yet unknown future, the horizon of expecta of horizon the future, unknown yet imminent an by generated ety anxi the and of acceleration continuous the with world, today’s In century? first twenty early the of realities new the absorbing with dealing of capable magistra vitae magistra of another another of an extension of the present – complicates predictions based on past events? events? past on based predictions complicates – present the of extension an opaque unpredictable the and as insofar disturbed been has expectation and , a sort of sort a , In a similar way, In could a it experience similar between be the said that balance ward the end of the seventeenth century, after Louis XIV’s reign, the the reign, XIV’s Louis end the after ofward century, seventeenth the perience of historical change on linguistic expression it is also pos also is it expression linguistic on change historical of perience rk to the equestrian world, and another refers to the situation experi situation the to refers another and world, equestrian the to ments created to promote the GG – to sell more issues. Although I Although issues. more sell to – GG the promote to created ments is not so bad. If what we are looking for are the imprints of the ex the of imprints the are for looking are we what If bad. so not is biguous. As you know, one of the meanings of meanings know,you oneof the As biguous. cal point of view, view, of point cal any in allude not does it end the in But view. larger a contemplate can there from and top to the of enceda mountain when one climbs am very is it because mainly term, the like particularly not do I ey, advertise commercial in time first the for it used and term the ed of the experience in the modern world. Therefore, from a theoreti a from Therefore, world. modern the in experience the of sible to identify a identify to sible aspect crucial the is which time, of acceleration the to way specific am happy that succeeded in providing the lexicon with some mon some with lexicon the providing in succeeded that happy am Sattelzeit

” still be valid? be ” still First of all, concerning concerning of all, First Sattelzeit , the great semantic transformation that took shape after after tookshape that transformation semantic great the , Sattelzeit turned upside down? In this case, given what we what given case, this In down? upside turned Sattelzeit is a very deficient term. But in the end it end the in But term. deficient very a is in France. As noted by Paul Hazard, to Hazard, Paul by noted As France. in Sattelzeit , I have to tell you that I invent you that to, I tell have Sattel refers to horses, horses, to refers Historia Historia ------jfs litical lexicon. lexicon. litical teenth century – was also decisive in the modernization of the Spanish po Spanish the of modernization the in decisive also was – century teenth German the to equivalent period the that doubt no is there hand, other the on But, (neo-scholasticism). tradition upon built renovation a was it al though language, political of renovation the in important been have could tury Sattelzeit

Probably in the Spanish case too, the sixteenth and seventeenth cen seventeenth and sixteenth the too, case Spanish the in Probably – from the second half of the eighteenth century to the mid-nine the to century eighteenth the of half second the from – Enlightenment produced several linguistic innovations. This proc This innovations. linguistic several produced Enlightenment Machiavelli systematically drew upon history as a source of lessons lessons of source a as history upon drew systematically Machiavelli was that it opened a wide gap between the experiences and expec and experiences the between gap wide a opened it that was predictable. predictable. un more even becomes future the and events new these to perience ex apply past toimmediately possible nolonger Therefore it pace. is for the future. With the for future. the rk wnit cnuy I w aaye h srcue f itrcl accel historical of structure the analyze we If century. twentieth pro also course of Machiavelli time. that of people the of tations Machiavelli. by introduced innovation tual the And Germany. in occurred similar anything before century, teenth tinct experiences. This is essentially my theory and my answer in re in my answer and my theory essentially is This experiences. tinct duced a rupture in the field of political science which, in one way or way one in which, science political of field the in rupture duceda transition that of feature important most The ago. years discussed the of implications theoretical the have not do change ofseven the beginning at the France in started change ofess radical eration we will find many temporal layers that correspond to dis to correspond that layers temporal many find will we eration quite fit into what is happening during periods of rapid historical historical rapid of periods during happening is what into fit quite of common or similar problems as those from the nineteenth and and nineteenth the from those as problems similar or common of discovery the to lead and studied be can themselves acceleration of based on do the past not seem explanations because ofto persuasion sponse to the crisis of the of the crisis to the sponse acceleration in which changes are produced at a progressively faster faster progressively a at produced are changes which in acceleration However, future. immediate the in everyone affect would another,

Sattelzeit Nevertheless, all these periods or thresholds of conceptual conceptual of thresholds or periods these all Nevertheless, However, in the long run it is evident that the structures structures the that evident is it run long the in However, of the Italians could have started with the great concep great the with started have could Italians ofthe Sattelzeit historia magistra vitae magistra historia , historical argument loses its power argument , historical topic. Sattelzeit we ------121 an interview with reinhart koselleck 122 an interview with reinhart koselleck African Americans, Hispanics, etc. – to write their own histories. This makes This makes etc. – own histories. to their write Hispanics, Americans, African jfs jfs ly within the United Sates, that claim rights for collective groups – women, women, – groups collective for rights claim that Sates, United the within ly ( as a history “collective singular” processes and experiences past, present and future. Now, as the twenty first first twenty the Now,as future. and present past, experiences and processes total the encompassing of capable is and narratives individual all of point the end of the eighteenth century as an all-encompassing concept regulating concept regulating all-encompassing as an end the of century eighteenth the ing of Fidel Castro’s statement that “History will acquit me” or will Franco’s of wish ing “History Fidel that statement Castro’s rupture the not is post-modernity of consequences the of one if wonder me a as nowadays, that suggests -- hu centuries forof course the scenario through action shared man larger a onto them projecting and histories of ity of macroconcept the of establishment the on specially and times modern cific histories? cific no longer Is history of a history? Big Bang we witnessing are begins, century special presented, been have voices many multiculturalism, of consequence of the global and universalistic concept of History that was produced during produced during was that concept of History of universalistic global and the only to be accountable to “God and History. and accountable to to “God be only spoke of History with a capital “H” has fallen out of use – here I am think am I here – use of out fallen has “H” capital a with History of spoke a “collective singular”? Is it fragmenting once again into a multitude of spe of multitude a into again once fragmenting it Is singular”? “collective a

However, it seems certain that the grand political rhetoric of political However,the those that grand who it seems certain in history of concept the of transformation the on reflections Your flicts in the Balkans are an example of this). On the other hand, the hand, other the On this). of example an are Balkans the in flicts ls ad h apaac o sal nt o ato (h rcn con recent (the action of units small of appearance the and ples, rk rk tions. Furthermore, within these large economies, which happen to happen which economies, large these within Furthermore, tions. conse a but invention ideological an not is globalization sense this ing to buy themselves time by saying that they should to they ing that be by buy time judged saying themselves only be based on older and more consolidated societies, new differences differences new societies, consolidated more and older on based be cians in trouble, reacting to pressure and widespread criticism try criticism widespread and pressure to reacting trouble, in cians quence of the economic expansion of larger and more powerful na powerful more and larger of expansion economic the of quence grounds for pluralization today are common and universal and in in and universal and common are today pluralization for grounds show up. Nevertheless I think that this pluralization ofyou histories pluralization this that show I up.think Nevertheless an analytical tool. tool. analytical an as “history” singular collective a of need the proves to alluding are peo and tribes different of proliferation the individualization, are

I think that globalization is part of the modern experience, as as experience, modern the of part is globalization that think I o ae eern t te netos f eti pol, politi people, certain of intentions the to referring are You Kollektivsingular ) -- which is the convergence ------Instituto Universitário de Pesquisas do Rio de Janeiro – de Janeiro do Rio de Pesquisas Universitário Instituto Universidad de Buenos Aires, Argentina and João Feres Júnior ( Argentina de Universidad Buenos Aires, who collaborate with us in the Ibero-american conceptual history project project history conceptual Ibero-american the in us with collaborate who jfs/jff jff history? In other words, what is the relationship between the present the (the his between what words, relationship is other In the history? ng ties and creates new ones… new creates and ties two different “languages” at the same time and that one must be conscious conscious be must one that and time same the at “languages” different two histori of process the in actors) of action discursive (the past the and torian) Iecnets: om Glmn ( Goldman Noemí (Iberconceptos): cal comprehension, keeping in mind that the historian must talk (write) in in (write) talk must historian the that mind in keeping comprehension, cal of subjects to the available resources conceptual to the relation in describing interpreting/ of task historian’s the locate it does how and where discourse,” of this fact? of this

In your reflection on “the empirical connection between reality and reality between connection empirical “the on reflection your In It could be said that globalization at the same time destroys old identi destroys time same the at globalization that said be could It

who would say that “prejudice” is necessary in order to understand understand to order in necessary is “prejudice” that say would who languages of the past. This question is not a problem for Gadamer, Gadamer, for problem a not is question This past. the of languages old the speaking of advantage the have we that thinking to us leads ply constitute our own particular approach to things, which is what what is which things, to approach particular own our constitute ply rk rk justification… It is true that the use of such rhetoric is falling out of falling is rhetoric such use the of that true is It justification… ultimate universal justice has practically disappeared. But this does does this But disappeared. practically has justice universal ultimate as history of conception this that thing good a is it think I and use the contrary, analytically speaking, I still find it very useful to study study to useful it very find still I speaking, analytically contrary, the terms of singular differences, unique cases, in reality this will sim will this reality in cases, unique differences, singular of terms not mean that history as a form of totality has been wiped out: quite quite out: wiped been has of aform totality as history that not mean by what happens in the future in a gesture of self-affirmation and self-affirmation of gesture a in future the in happens what by guides this process… this guides scale. at auniversal changes global own language. And if we interpret languages from the past only in in only past the from languages interpret we if And language. own something rather normal since naturally everyone speaks his or her his speaks everyone naturally since normal rather something anyone’s insertion within a tradition, were requisites for the com the for requisites were tradition, a within insertion anyone’s of result the are “prejudices”, which such that Hethought anything. Finally we would like to act as intermediaries for two colleagues colleagues two for intermediaries as act to like would we Finally

I don’tshould dual that Itbe reality this overestimated. think is what determine to hard still is it now right and Certainly, ng ), from the Instituto Ravignani, Ravignani, Instituto the from ), iuperj jfj , Brazil. , Brazil. ), ), from the - - - - - 123 an interview with reinhart koselleck 124 an interview with reinhart koselleck jfj lapping. Despite the overwhelming reception of the linguistic turn you are are you turn linguistic the of reception overwhelming the Despite lapping. peatedly refer to the extra-linguistic aspects of the human condition. If I If condition. human the of aspects extra-linguistic the to refer peatedly ulated public discourse that could then be shared by a group of people com peopleof group a by shared be then could that discourse public ulated between relationship the concerning stance your correctly this understood than those expressed by those expressed the than basic concepts? Would be also “the political” part be considered never that experience less publicity, achieve this can important leave us Let history. social and history conceptual between relationship the resent a part of social experience that makes its way into the public sphere sphere public the into way its makes that experience social of part a resent directly that issues and letusexamine in the flow communication, of human on arise questions many true, is this If debate. public in to/involved mitted public Hesphere. the in demands of social to appearance the ment referring recognition on writings his In adherence. total resists who one only the not ( conceptual history and language is that of proximity but not complete overcompletenot but proximity of that is language and history conceptual of administrative, cultural, and technical concepts, as well as of concepts, as well counter- con technical and cultural, of administrative, of aspects theses handle history conceptual could How experience? this of social experience? Shouldn’t conceptual history be concerned with the study study the with be concerned history Shouldn’t conceptual experience? social and, on the other, there are crucial aspects of social experience in all societies in onand, ofall aspects experience the social other, there are crucial concepts basic on one If, hand, history. conceptual affect repressed are that elements the of “unsaid,” remains what of study the aside artic an generating of capable not is suffering human itself, by that, argues Annerkenung

In your critique of Gadamer’s radical defense of defense radical Gadamer’s of critique your In What I want to say is that we always need a hypothesis - in order to order in - hypothesis a need always we that is say to want I What privilege – it is inescapable. inescapable. –it is privilege order to under in essential also were matter for and that prehension from past to present, two realms that cannot be drastically separat drastically be cannot that realms two present, to past from uninvited and unmotivated and we are naturally the ones who make ones the who make naturally we and are unmotivated and uninvited the questions that need to be answered – it is inevitable. It is not a not is It inevitable. is it – answered be to need that questions the It of is impossible to past. the of foundation the analysis any are that be the messages of this language from the past. And to Gadamer the the to And Gadamer past. the from language ofbe messages the this confront confront and from read wethe past texts unless pose these questions. on depends differences them between relationship the that ed given the and present the of “prejudices” between relationship dialectic get answers there must be questions. Answers don’t come about just Answers questions. be must there answers get original meanings of the past entails transformation: a translation translation a transformation: entails past the of meanings original stand languages of the past, or, more precisely, what is supposed to supposed is what precisely, more or, past, the of languages stand ), the philosopher Axel Honneth has suggested a similar argu similar a suggested has Honneth Axel philosopher the ), Sprachlichkeit

( Grundbegriffen you re you ) rep ------cus so much on basic concepts while other categories get little attention? little get categories other while concepts on much so basic cus just cepts, to a foname few categories? In whyshort historians do conceptual Those that celebrate the winners Those hide the and celebrate losers, serve those that that the winners Something similar occurs with the monuments to the dead – they they – dead the to monuments the with occurs similar Something lieve that everything can be reduced to language, concentrating ex concentrating language, to reduced be can everything that lieve people to see things from their point of view. So, why not? There is is There not? why So, view. of point their from things see to people from the methodological point of view is precisely centered on his his on centered precisely is view of point methodological the from rk to our group, through a binary conceptualization heavily unilateral unilateral heavily conceptualization binary a through group, our to counter-concepts Asymmetrical them. to due silenced remain that that can be basic discovered by concepts studying and the also things two sides of asymmetrical counter concepts. What is the difference difference the is What concepts. counter asymmetrical of sides two the study you as methodologically implicit is This excluded. those nial problem of the need to inquire into political concepts that are are that concepts political into inquire to need the of problem nial peren the up brings symbols in and/or language in manifestation much goes Experience around. way it’s other the that I think rience. ( idea of language ings and un-human beings? (given that classifying other human be human other classifying that (given beings? un-human and ings to celebrate obliged be not also should history conceptual no reason ( between Greeks and Barbarians, Christians and heretics, human be human heretics, and Christians Barbarians, and Greeks between be who those for certainly but interpretation, linguistic its beyond celebrate those who have been defeated and that we should invite invite should we that and defeated been have who those celebrate of silencing provokethe can concepts ofbasic study the on clusively of course, a moral question. The relationship between silence and and silence between relationship The question. moral a course, of belong not do who those to people, other to things attributing of implications This approach the social could limit other experiences. same way Walter Benjamin did. He used to say that we should also also should we that say to used He did. Benjamin Walter the way same this with dealing in problem no see I Therefore concepts. sic would logic, this to according which, silenced, monuments. all for goes this and – rest the silences but something shows kind of this memorial Any show at silence and time. same the as remembrance for the vanquished forget the victors. This poses, poses, This victors. the forget vanquished the for remembrance as reduces field. that to them and a derogatory negative semantic purely means They are things. of silencing a have art lotthe to also do with Gadamer of critique My silenced. been have that experiences ative asymmetrischer Gegenbegriffe asymmetrischer

Well… my conception of basic concepts does not exclude neg exclude not does concepts basic of conception my Well… Sprache ) as the only and exclusive source of all expe ofsource exclusive all and ) only the as ), on which I wrote an essay a while ago, ago, while a essay an wrote I which on ), not not be considered ba considered be ------125 an interview with reinhart koselleck 126 an interview with reinhart koselleck United States as well as on the negative stereotypes linked to both concepts concepts both to linked stereotypes negative the on as well as States United jfs used as asymmetrical counter concepts… counter asymmetrical as used concept of Spanish America and then, later, on that of Latin America in the the in America Latin of that on later, then, and America Spanish of concept

João Feres Júnior has done some very good work on the history of the the of history the on work good very some done has Júnior Feres João On one hand it indicates social change and on the other it is an es an is it other the on and change social indicates it hand one On very interesting. It points out silence as a practice that hides behind behind hides that practice a as outsilence points It interesting. very human reality. There is a very strong argument to backing up this this up backing to argument strong very a is There reality. human all to key the into language transformed philosophy hermeneutical position, but for me, as a historian, it is impossible to accept it as a as it accept to impossible is it historian, a as me, for but position, following Heidegger’s footsteps, language implicitly contains the to the contains implicitly language Heidegger’s footsteps, following rk unique and exclusive truth. As a historian I cannot limit myself to myself limit cannot I historian a As truth. exclusive and unique tality of experience. There is noprocess of the in doubtof transfer that experience. tality the linguistic domain, that is, to what was in fact said, I tooc is, must said, that what also fact in was domain, the linguistic ring ring many concepts from Greek into philosophy, German Gadamer’s form of would be asymmetrical the most as un-human extreme ings cupy myself with that which could be said. said. be could which that with myself cupy conceptualization). ordinary language. Yes, very interesting. But, as I said, language is is language said, I as But, interesting. very Yes, language. ordinary sential factor that allows us to become conscious of changes in re in changes of conscious become to us allows that factor sential ality. Gadamer did not accept this ambiguity in language. For him, him, For language. in ambiguity this accept not did Gadamer ality. productive. and receptive time same the at is It ambiguous. always

Yes, I remember reading Yes, it, João ItI sent reading remember is me work his himself. - - - - - first professional visitprofessionalfirst to ItSpain. first in appeared in Spanish December 2006. December Centro de Estudios Políticos y Constitucionales de Madrid. This lecture lecture This Madrid. de Constitucionales y Políticos Estudios de Centro endnotes will appear, in Spanish translation, on translation, Spanish in appear, will 1 to the History of Concepts would like to thank Javiér Fernández Sebastián Sebastián Fernández Javiér thank to like would Concepts of History the to nº 111, March 2006, pp. 19-22 and nº 112, April 2006, pp. 6-10. Contributions Contributions pp. 6-10. 2006, April nºand pp. 19-22 112, 2006, nº March 111, 2 und Geschishte und and Juan Francisco Fuentes for authorizing its publication here. here. publication its for Fuentes authorizing Francisco Juan and This was interview conducted in on Madrid, April Koselleck’s during 5, 2005, Koselleck here refers to his conference conference his to refers here Koselleck ”, given the day after this interview, on April 6, 2005, at the the at 2005, 6, April on interview, this after day the given ”, Revista de Estudios Políticos Estudios de Revista “Wiederholungsstrukturen in Sprache Sprache in “Wiederholungsstrukturen Revista de Revista Libros , no. 134, 134, no. , , 127 an interview with reinhart koselleck