Friday Volume 523 11 February 2011 No. 117

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES ()

Friday 11 February 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 597 11 FEBRUARY 2011 598

take forward his concerns. He should consult the Table House of Commons Office, which he will find a source of profitable advice. I hope that that is helpful to the hon. Gentleman. Friday 11 February 2011 BILL PRESENTED

PROTECTION OF FREEDOMS BILL The House met at half-past Nine o’clock Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Mrs Secretary May, supported by the Prime Minister, PRAYERS the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Secretary Hammond, Mr Secretary Lansley,Secretary Michael Gove, Mr Secretary Clarke and James Brokenshire, presented a Bill to provide [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] for the destruction, retention, use and other regulation of certain evidential material; to impose consent and Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I beg to other requirements in relation to certain processing of move, That the House sit in private. biometric information relating to children; to provide Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163), and for a code of practice about surveillance camera systems negatived. and for the appointment and role of the Surveillance Camera Commissioner; to provide for judicial approval in relation to certain authorisations and notices under Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): On a point of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000; to order, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, the Deputy Prime Minister, provide for the repeal or rewriting of powers of entry while speaking to a public services summit, claimed and associated powers and for codes of practice and that he would not allow a rigged market in the NHS other safeguards in relation to such powers; to make and said that there would be no higher tariffs for provision about vehicles left on land; to provide for a private providers. That contradicts the Government’s maximum detention period of 14 days for terrorist own impact assessment, published with the Health and suspects; to replace certain stop and search powers and Social Care Bill. to provide for a related code of practice; to amend the In view of the mistaken impression that has been Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006; to make created and the seriousness of the issue for many hundreds provision about criminal records; to disregard convictions of thousands of NHS workers and the public at large, and cautions for certain abolished offences; to make will you advise me, Mr Speaker, whether there is any provision about the release and publication of datasets redress in the House? Will the Deputy Prime Minister held by public authorities and to make other provision come to apologise for creating that mistaken impression? about freedom of information and the Information Commissioner; to repeal certain enactments; and for Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for connected purposes. his point of order. The issue in question involves a point Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time of debate about which the hon. Gentleman has strong tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 146) with explanatory views. He asks about redress. The issue is how best to notes (Bill 146 -EN). 599 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 600

Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill On 26 October last year, I asked the Deputy Prime Minister in this Chamber when the commission would Second Reading be established, and I was told that it would be established by the end of 2010. However, it became apparent on 9.36 am the final sitting day of 2010 that the commission had not been established, and I again put the question to my Harriett Baldwin (West ) (Con): I beg hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. (Stephen Crabb), the Minister on duty, who said that As a new Member, I drew No. 7 in the private “the Government will make an announcement on the commission Members’ Bill ballot. Some might think that it is great in the new year. I am happy to confirm that we do indeed mean foolhardiness to have chosen to raise the knotty 2011. That is very much part of our programme for next year.”— constitutional issue of the question in the [Official Report, 21 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 1338.] House today, but it is with a great sense of privilege and If nothing else, given the fragile life chances of private trepidation that I today present a Bill that is designed Members’ Bills, I am pleased to use today’s debate to to be extremely helpful to you, Mr Speaker, if you were encourage the Government to advance their own business. ever asked to certify whether a particular piece of Over the last decade, devolution to Wales, Northern legislation applied to a particular part of the United Ireland and , which I wholeheartedly support, Kingdom. has meant that more and more legislation coming before Mr Speaker, you will be very aware that the question the House affects different constituent parts of the of Members voting on issues that do not affect their in different ways. For example, at the own constituencies has vexed many minds much more moment the Health and Social Care Bill will apply learned than mine for well over a century. essentially to England.

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Why on earth would Chris Bryant: Essentially, but not exclusively. Mr Speaker be asked to adjudicate on whether something applied somewhere or did not? Harriett Baldwin: The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely important point about how difficult it is these Harriett Baldwin: That is an extremely important days to identify which parts of the United Kingdom question. Mr Speaker has the ability, under Standing Bills will apply to, a problem that this Bill is intended to Order No. 97, to certify whether a particular piece of address. The hon. Gentleman will clearly support it. legislation applies only to Scotland. He already has the powers, and it will be extremely interesting today, during Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) the debate on this legislation, to discuss whether those (Con): My hon. Friend will be aware that there will be a powers ought to be extended to further parts of the referendum on further powers for the Welsh Assembly United Kingdom. in just a few weeks. If Wales votes in favour of those powers in the 20 areas of competence that the referendum The West Lothian question has vexed constitutional covers, will that create a west Walean question? experts since the time of Gladstone, who first perceived the difficulties when Irish Home Rule was being discussed. Harriett Baldwin: My hon. Friend asks an important At various times in the last century, the topic has been question, pointing out that devolution is an ongoing raised in the Chamber and in the other place, but it has process. Indeed, the referendum in Wales on 3 March always been parked in the car park for questions that and the Scotland Bill will potentially change the decision- are too difficult to resolve under our unwritten constitution. making process in this Chamber, so it is all the more However, the following question is often raised with important that the Bill is carried today. me by residents of my constituency, which I like to think represents the heart of middle England. How can Chris Bryant: Will the hon. Lady tell us whether it be right for it to be possible for potentially decisive she voted on the Parliamentary Voting System and pieces of legislation to be voted on in this place by, and Constituencies Bill, which contains many provisions carried by a majority of, Members of Parliament who that will apply solely to Wales? are not legislating on behalf of their own constituents? That is not a question that we can carry on parking in Harriett Baldwin: The hon. Gentleman is making that car park for ever. It is my intention with this Bill to extremely important points about how legislation currently edge the West Lothian question slightly closer to the car before the House can mix up different issues and have park exit. different impacts on different parts of the United Kingdom. The Conservative party manifesto, on which I stood, My Bill would make things clearer, with the result that said: parliamentary draftsmen would automatically start to “Labour have refused to address the so-called ‘West Lothian make it clearer and much more distinct which parts of Question’: the unfair situation of Scottish MPs voting on matters the United Kingdom Bills apply to. In addition, the Bill which are devolved. A Conservative government will introduce would allow legislation to continue to apply to different new rules so that legislation referring specifically to England, or parts of the United Kingdom—all it says is, “Let’s state to England and Wales, cannot be enacted without the consent of that on the face of the Bill.” Why should we not do that? MPs representing constituencies of those countries.” Of course, the Conservative party did not win an overall Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I majority, but in the coalition programme for government, congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing this Bill. the section on political reform states: She describes the issue as complex. Does she understand “We will establish a commission to consider the ‘West Lothian why it is so complex that the Government have not even question’.” been able to set up a commission to look into it? Surely, 601 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 602 that should not be beyond the capability of the Deputy we are talking about some impressive brainpower. The Prime Minister. Has she been able to find out why that taskforce’s report looked at five main options for addressing has not been done? the West Lothian question. The first option is the one that the previous Government Harriett Baldwin: My hon. Friend asks a somewhat took for the last decade, which essentially was to do cheeky question. I am sympathetic to the fact that the nothing. That approach was best summarised by Lord Parliamentary Secretary, , my hon. Friend Irvine’s argument—that the best way to answer the the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper)—a West Lothian question was to stop asking it. constituency neighbour of mine—has had a rather busy last couple of weeks. I am giving him a little slack Chris Bryant: I think I saw a little partisanness sweep because of that, but I agree that it is important to keep across the hon. Lady’s eyes. To say that it is only the pressing for the establishment of the commission. Government of the last 10 years who have done nothing The legislation on tuition fees will affect university about the issue is to ignore the last seven centuries, students from England. It will create the awkward when no Government did anything about it. situation of Welsh and English students paying different fees to attend the same university. The Scotland Bill, Harriett Baldwin: I fully accept that the issue has which I mentioned earlier, will enhance the powers of been out there and unsolved for at least 100 years. the Scottish Executive in many instances, including However, I think that it was a deliberate strategy by the their ability to vary tax rates. Therefore, Parliament and previous Government, as evidenced by Lord Irvine’s this truly reforming Government need to find a way to statement. The do-nothing approach risks causing the scrutinise legislation in such a way that Members, who same English alienation that Scottish devolution was have the best interests of their own constituents in designed to address for Scotland. mind, can play a greater role in the legislative process. A second approach to address the issue is through This is an issue that we duck at our peril. under-representation at Westminster for the parts of the UK that have their own Parliament, which is often Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I known as the Stormont solution. During most of the congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing her Bill. I 20th century there was a Northern Ireland Parliament am sure that she, like me, receives letters weekly from at Stormont, and Northern Ireland sent only 11 Members her constituents asking, “When are you going to get on of Parliament to Westminster when its population would with the issue? It is just not fair for English constituents, have justified 17. That is another possible approach, but taxpayers, ratepayers and voters.” I do not think it is the right one. Also, it is completely at odds with the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, which brings a welcome equalisation Harriett Baldwin: I thank my hon. Friend for adding of constituency sizes. those supportive words from her constituents. I am sure that many hon. Members have had the issue raised with A third option that people have mentioned is an them from time to time. English Parliament. There is a campaign group for this solution, but that approach leads to a plethora of As I mentioned, the question has been looked at by questions. Would it require separate elections or a separate many heads wiser than mine over the years, and I have building? Would we have a First Minister for England? benefited from extensive analysis from history of what What if the First Minister for England was different has not worked. Therefore, I have avoided in the Bill from the Prime Minister? That solution would also be any sense that I want to create two categories of MP extremely expensive, and I do not think that the mood at Westminster, which is where the private Member’s in the country is in favour of an additional layer of Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for politicians. That approach could also lead to the formal North Dorset (Mr Walter)—the House of Commons break-up of the United Kingdom, so I have completely (Participation) Bill—ran into difficulty in the previous rejected it. A fourth approach, which, to be fair to the Parliament. Parliamentary privilege, which is MPs’ ability hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), was the one to speak out or vote on any issue, is at the heart of our initially taken by the previous Government, is devolution Parliament. to regional government, giving the English regions more I am a passionate supporter of the Union, and do constitutional power. However, that was rejected decisively not want to undermine it in any way with the Bill. My in the 2004 referendum in the north-east. grandmother, of whom I have fond memories, was A fifth option, which has been on the table for some called Flora McLean McLeod Morison. She was born time, is something called English votes for English laws. in Dunbar to a general practitioner who came from the Unfortunately, however, that would create two categories Isle of Mull, so I am a flesh-and-blood embodiment of of MPs, leaving the Executive powerless to win votes on the Union myself. It is because I believe that not resolving important public service issues. That was the approach this question would cause long-term harm to the Union taken by my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset that I urge the Government to support the Bill. in his private Member’s Bill, and was also the approach What I found most helpful in preparing the Bill was outlined in the 2001 and 2005 Conservative manifestos. the Conservative party’s democracy taskforce, chaired by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for (South Northamptonshire) (Con): Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), who prepared a pamphlet called Does my hon. Friend not agree that at least that solution “Answering the Question”. The Leader of the House, would appear to be fair? Many voters in this country who was in the Chamber earlier, and my hon. Friends would see it as the fair solution: if a particular piece of the Members for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) and for South legislation did not affect their area, Members should Thanet (Laura Sandys) were also on the taskforce, so not be able to vote on it. 603 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 604

Harriett Baldwin: That approach is one of those Harriett Baldwin: That is certainly an original approach, things that looks fair at first sight, but the more one and one that, I must confess, I had not heard from any looks at it, the more problems with it one perceives. For other source, so I very much appreciate my hon. Friend’s example, what if the Government of the day could not putting it on the record. I said at the beginning of my carry the Budget? The Finance Bill is something that speech that I am very much in favour of devolution and the Government have to be able to carry, but if the allowing decisions that affect particular areas to be make-up or majority in the English Parliament was made at the lowest possible level of government. That is different from that in the overall, national Parliament, the theme of localisation, so although my hon. Friend how would we solve such conundrums? That is why I has set out an original idea, I prefer what I have have not taken that approach in my Bill. proposed in my Bill. The recommendation that I thought made the most To return to my point about Standing Order No. 97, sense was the one in the democracy taskforce publication, in its 1999 report on the procedural consequences of which proposed a lower-strength version of English devolution, the Select Committee on Procedure said votes for English laws. This proposal was that Bills be that certified by the Speaker as English. They would pass “the provision allowing the Speaker to certify Bills as relating through normal Commons processes as far as and exclusively to Scotland” including Second Reading, on which the whole House would vote. The Committee stage would be undertaken could be by English MPs in proportion to English party strengths. “transferred to a new Standing Order and adapted so that the Report stage would be similarly voted on by English Speaker may certify that a bill relates exclusively to one of the Members only, and Third Reading, when no amendments constituent parts of the United Kingdom.” are possible, would again be voted on by the whole House. Further to that, Standing Orders Nos. 102 and 106 However, there are also problems with that approach, allow legislation to be referred to a Welsh Grand Committee. but it is those problems that my Bill seeks to solve. However, we are now touching on issues that have gone The problem was best expressed by lain MacLean of far above my pay grade, although they are issues that Nuffield college in his 2005 paper, in which he said: would be there for the House to agree once my Bill had received Royal Assent. “It will be hard for the Speaker to define what is an English bill, at least to do so without controversy—the Speaker could be politicised”. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I am I would not want to put you in such an awkward not quite sure how we get from my hon. Friend’s Bill to position, Mr Speaker. Therefore, by requiring the Secretary the legislative programme that she is suggesting. Is the of State to specify in draft legislation the territorial idea that this would be done exclusively through the extent of a Bill, my expectation is that it would be much Standing Orders of this House, and that we would clearer in the drafting of Bills to which parts of the UK therefore change the structures of the passing of legislation they applied. Indeed, the Clerk advises me that the purely on our Standing Orders? Health and Social Care Bill, which was mentioned earlier and which, really, applies only to England, would Harriett Baldwin: My Bill has deliberately shied away be hard to certify as being an England-only Bill, because from being prescriptive in that area. Our constitution of the way in which it is drafted. What I hope my Bill has a capacity to evolve and adapt to changing would achieve, once it received Royal Assent, is gently circumstances in a way that does not need to be written to guide those drafting Her Majesty’s legislation to be down in legislation, so my Bill stops at the point where clear enough in that drafting so that you, Mr Speaker, the draft legislation outlines which parts of the United would have no problem certifying Bills. Indeed, you Kingdom it affects. It would then be for us, through already have the power, under Standing Order No. 97, House procedures, to look at the ways in which the new to certify Bills as having regard to Scotland only. In the legislation would permit the House to treat different past, before devolution, that Standing Order was used Bills in different ways. quite often, which shows that there is a precedent for I have touched on the purpose of the Bill, but there such certification and that it would not be beyond the are other provisions that are worth highlighting. The wit of those much wiser than me to come up with some Bill would establish a principle of legislative clarity, improvements on that Standing Order. which would mean that citizens and Members of Parliament Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I would have the right to see how proposed changes to thank my hon. Friend for indulging me. I wonder the law would affect them or their constituents. There whether she would be willing to listen to my perhaps is also flexibility built into the Bill, so that if it is not more simple solution to the West Lothian question, possible for the Secretary of State to affirm that the which is indeed a boil that needs lancing. If we got rid draft legislation is compatible with those principles, the of Members of the Scottish Parliament and Members Government can still make a statement that they wish of the Welsh Assembly, and instead merely had elected to proceed anyway. I am sure that no one in the Chamber MPs, then all MPs from across Great Britain could could possibly object to this new level of transparency meet in this place on Mondays and Tuesdays to attend in our legislation. to British affairs, and then on Wednesdays, and perhaps The Bill also calls for a separate statement—a financial Thursdays, they could return to the Scottish Parliament memorandum—on the financial implications of legislation or the Welsh Assembly, or to Northern Ireland, leaving on the constituent parts of the United Kingdom. Again, English MPs to attend to English matters in this place. this is designed to be helpful to you, Mr Speaker, by Surely that would save the taxpayer a great deal of making any financial effects of legislation—for example, money and, by getting rid of so many politicians, be via the Barnett formula—clear and unambiguous. It is very popular in the country. often argued that, because of the Barnett formula, it is 605 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 606 impossible to achieve granularity when it comes to the UK whose elected representatives do not, by themselves, impact of legislation on England. The financial statement have the final say on matters that affect purely their would therefore allow the question of whether that was constituents. That will no longer be the case for Scotland, the case to be transparent. Wales or Northern Ireland, but paradoxically it will In bringing my remarks to a close, I simply point out have become so for England. Talking about 100 Members, that the Bill is both minor and entirely unobjectionable. rather than 11, is not a minimal side issue; it goes to the In fact, it is so innocuous that I am sure all hon. very heart not only of constitutional propriety but of Members in the Chamber today will support not only fairness. My remarks today will be about fairness rather its aims but its intentions, and that they will all wave than constitutions, because that is the fundamental through its Second Reading. I am sure that the Government principle of our political system, and the implications will have no issue with the intended consequences of the of these arrangements are significant. Bill, although they may have some drafting issues with We must not get this out of proportion, however. I do the unintended consequences, on which I would welcome not believe that it is right to imply that, as a consequence their input in Committee. This Bill is necessary to create of devolution, this place has effectively become an a strong foundation on which the House can make English Chamber because the Scots, the Welsh and the on addressing the important issues of territorial Northern Irish have very little continuing involvement extent, and I commend it to the House. here as a result of the big areas that have been devolved to their own Parliaments in , Cardiff and 10 am Belfast. That is a gross exaggeration. If we look at the whole scope of government, we see that the UK Sir (Kensington) (Con): I congratulate Government and Parliament still have either sole or my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire predominant responsibility for massive swaths of policy. (Harriett Baldwin) on what she has said today. This is The most important issues facing any Government are an historic moment. West Worcestershire has taken up those of taxation. At this moment, virtually all tax the cudgels on the West Lothian question, and I very powers reside with the United Kingdom Parliament, much welcome her comments. I have taken an interest and all Members of Parliament from every part of the in these issues for a long time. I first entered the House kingdom have an equal interest in and responsibility for in 1974, and when Margaret Thatcher became leader those matters. The largest budget of the British Government of our party, she was kind enough to appoint me as a is the social security budget, and that is a United junior spokesman on devolution. I have therefore had Kingdom budget. It does not differentiate in any material to take some views on these matters. I am now the way between north and south of the border. Member for Kensington, but my primary home remains in Scotland, outside Edinburgh in East Lothian. Later, Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I thank my right I will offer what might immodestly be referred to as an hon. and learned, and very old, Friend for giving way— East Lothian answer to the West Lothian question. [Laughter.] I mean “old” in the sense of time. We are I have no doubt that the consequences of devolution both of a certain age. represent unfinished business. Over the past 12 years, we have witnessed the single biggest constitutional change Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Speak for yourself! in the United Kingdom since the Act of Union in 1707— Bob Stewart: He is no longer my friend. I always used Chris Bryant: What about 1801? to respect him. Does he think that there will be increased pressure to give more tax-raising powers not only to Sir Malcolm Rifkind: It was far more important than Scotland in the Scotland Bill but to the Welsh Assembly what happened in 1801, which turned out to be a blip in and to Stormont? the constitutional history of the UK. What we are seeing now is a permanent change. It has not destroyed Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Such proposals are under the United Kingdom, but it has undoubtedly created a deliberation and likely to go forward. That could mean new kind of United Kingdom. That has constitutional a reduction in the block grant to Scotland, if it were to implications, as well as implications for fairness. I suspect raise a proportionate sum through its own decisions. that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) This is an evolving situation, a dynamic constitutional would suggest that, since Stormont, we have lived with process. I cannot predict, any more than anyone else, the fact of Members from Northern Ireland being able where that process might lead, but for the foreseeable to vote on all the measures in this House despite the fact future the UK Government will retain responsibility for that their own constituencies might not be affected by virtually all tax responsibilities, as well as for the social them. There is a de minimis issue that we can sometimes security budget, all foreign affairs, all defence policy, all live with, but we now have something quite different, European Union issues, all trade policy, all electoral particularly if the Welsh approve an extension of the matters such as those we discussed yesterday, and a legislative powers of their Assembly in their referendum. whole host of other issues. So we must not imply that We will have a situation in which not 11 but Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Members have a approximately 100 Members of this House from three diminished interest in the affairs of this Parliament. of the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom It is sometimes suggested that it is quite improper, in will be able to vote on issues that do not affect their own this post-devolution situation, for a Member from Scotland, constituents. There will be only one part of the UK that Wales or wherever to be appointed as a Minister in a does not have that right. Rather curiously, having dominated Department whose responsibilities cover only England. the United Kingdom, by numbers, since the Act of Criticisms were made of John Reid when he became Union in 1707, England will become the one part of the Health Secretary in the previous Government because 607 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 608

[Sir Malcolm Rifkind] and that it is called the House of Commons, largely because of the history of this place and its origins many he represented a Scottish constituency. We should not centuries ago. When such an option is occasionally think of that as a constitutional issue, but it might be raised, we are not talking only about two Parliaments. politically stupid to make such an appointment because In practice, there would have to be two Governments; of the controversy that it will give rise to, enabling there would have to be an English Government just as criticism to be made. There is no lack of precedent for there is a Scottish Government. The idea that that is a such decisions being made in other contexts, however. sensible way of dealing with these matters is foolish. It During the Conservative Governments of Margaret would be a sledgehammer to crack an important but Thatcher and , every Secretary of State for nevertheless modest nut—foolish, as I say. Wales represented an English constituency. There has never been a Northern Ireland Secretary who comes The second option—one of the bad options—was from Northern Ireland, for obvious reasons with which attractive to many of my hon. Friends during the previous we are all familiar. Let us not suggest that that is a Parliament. It is the idea that Scottish Members—and, constitutional problem. It is a political problem, and one assumes, Welsh and Northern Ireland Members Prime Ministers have to decide whether it is sensible to either now or in due course—would be vetoed or prevented appoint Ministers from constituencies that are not affected from voting on issues that applied only to England. I by the decisions of the Department of which they will have always thought that that is a very dangerous and be in charge. It is against that background that we are unwise approach. It would manifestly create two classes considering the question of voting in this Parliament. of Member of Parliament for the very first time since the Act of Union in 1707, and therefore I can only describe it as a nationalist solution to a Unionist problem. Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Does my I have no doubt that it would be welcomed by the right hon. and learned Friend agree that we have nationalist parties in Scotland and Wales, because it institutionalised a sense of resentment and unfairness would provide a constant opportunity for them to emphasise by not giving greater fiscal autonomy and tax-raising the increasing irrelevance of the Union, as they would powers to the devolved Governments? That sense of see it, and to go much further than the vast majority of unfairness does not exist in other devolved systems, people throughout the United Kingdom would currently such as the federal system in the , in which want. It is not sensible to contemplate having two each state can raise its own taxes, and there is no feeling classes of Member, although not because it could not of resentment towards the central Government. work. Here I disagree with the hon. Member for Rhondda: it is not a matter of the technical problems, although I Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I return to my point that this can come on to those in moment if he wants me to; should be seen as an evolving situation. We speak of rather, I believe that it would be hugely dangerous and, devolution to the three other parts of the United Kingdom, in any event, it is unnecessary. but the devolution is different in each case. We have a If those options are unattractive, is there an alternative power-sharing institutionalised system in Northern Ireland, route to resolve these matters and to deal with the issue which does not exist anywhere else. We have a Scottish of fairness? We do not need a solution that is absolutely Parliament that is an Executive with full legislative perfect in every constitutional respect that fits seamlessly powers over devolved matters. Wales does not have a into some web of other issues; we need something that Parliament; it has an Assembly that does not yet have resolves the problem and removes a sense of unfairness. legislative powers. In each case, the arrangements will change, but they will change in response to experience At one stage, I argued for having an English Grand and to what are perceived to be the political wishes of Committee, to which English-only Bills would be sent. the people in the territories concerned. That is the It could be a Committee of all English Members sitting history of the United Kingdom. We are blessed with an in this Chamber, but only those on such a Committee unwritten constitution that we can evolve and adapt would be able to vote, just as members of Select Committees over the generations in a way that goes no further than are the only people able to vote on them. That would necessary but that responds to the aspirations of the not, in itself, be constitutionally improper. I acknowledge, peoples in the various parts of the kingdom in a sensible however, that that would be quite a complicated innovation, and coherent way. which would take a complex series of thoughts to I shall turn now to the consequences of those resolve and could take years in practice to implement. arrangements for voting in this Parliament. As my hon. In any event, there is a much simpler alternative—one Friend the Member for West Worcestershire so eloquently that has not thus far been mentioned—and I shall put it said, a range of options has been proposed to deal with forward. I would strongly argue that the most simple what has become known as the West Lothian question. and straightforward solution relates to when a Bill is Some of them are completely understandable, including certified by the Speaker, as my hon. Friend the Member the proposal that, if there is a Scottish, Welsh or Northern for West Worcestershire indicates, as applying only to Irish Parliament, there should be an English one. That England. Doing that, incidentally, is not difficult. Many sounds completely logical, but I was once warned that Bills currently affect England and Scotland or England, logic was the art of going wrong with confidence. It is, Scotland and Wales, because there is no reason at the in fact, absurd to contemplate the co-existence of an moment for the draftsmen not to draft them in that way, English Parliament with this , for if it suits their drafting objectives. If the rules change several reasons. and the draftsmen are required to restrict any Bill to First of all, to state an emotional and political fact—I that part of the kingdom to which it overwhelmingly say this with some caution—the vast majority of people applies, they can draft accordingly if instructed to do in England think that there is already an English Parliament so. 609 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 610

Where a Bill applies only to England, the right way to responsible for the other; each must come to their own resolve matters would be to say that before it can be judgments on these matters. approved on Second and Third Reading, it must achieve I come to the central point about the accusation that not only the majority of votes of the whole House but, government would become unworkable. It is not just subsumed within that, a majority of Members representing my view, my opinion or my theory that that is nonsense. English constituencies. In other words, a double majority We know from our own history that it is a ludicrous is required: a majority of the House as a whole and a argument; it is exactly what happens every time we have majority of those representing English constituencies. a hung Parliament. When there is such a Parliament, as If it does not meet that target, it cannot be deemed to there was between 1974 and 1979, there will be many have been approved on Second Reading. The attraction occasions when Governments cannot get their legislation is that no hon. Member is prevented from speaking in through. It does not necessarily mean the collapse of the debate or from voting in the Division Lobby for or the Government unless it is on some fundamental issue against the measure, but the question of whether an of confidence. What happens is that Governments either England-only Bill goes forward and is given a Second have to withdraw the proposal or discuss it with their Reading will have been determined by the House to be opponents and table amendments to make it more dependent on a majority of Members from English acceptable. That is also exactly what happens between constituencies voting for it. the House of Commons and the House of Lords from time to time. It is what happens in the United States all Harriett Baldwin: I thank my right hon. and learned the time. The current President of the US does not have Friend for giving way and also for sharing his enormous a majority in Congress, so he can never be certain of wisdom on this topic with the House. Does he agree getting any legislation through. The argument that a that the Scotland legislation of the 1970s included a British Government would somehow find themselves in provision made by the Lords for a 14-day waiting an unworkable and unacceptable situation because not period, in which something like what he is describing all but some of their English-only legislation was so would apply? What does he think of that particular controversial that a majority of English Members could approach? not be persuaded to vote for it and that that would create chaos in the workings of government is manifestly Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Yes, that is indeed one approach. ludicrous. That argument cannot be put forward in any We are always reminding ourselves that this country has credible way. a sovereign Parliament. The idea that a sovereign Parliament cannot determine that certain classes of legislation will Mr Chope: I congratulate my right hon. and learned not go through unless there is a double majority of the Friend on his wisdom. Has he yet been approached by kind that I have described is absurd. Of course it can the Deputy Prime Minister to serve on this committee, do that if it wishes; it is entirely within its power. It is which is yet to be set up? Surely, his service on that simply a political judgment as to whether that is the commission would be really useful. right way forward. I shall not speak for much longer, but I want to address one fundamental challenge that will be made—it Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I suspect that my hon. Friend’s has already been made—to any of the solutions that intervention has guaranteed that that will not happen. have been described. I have no doubt that the hon. In any event, I would rather give evidence to the committee Member for Rhondda will raise this suggestion. It is than serve on it. We will have to wait and see. constantly said that the problem with all these approaches Finally, it is the essence of a parliamentary system of is that if a Government were denied the use of all the government that Governments must not assume that votes of their supporters that would usually give them a they can always get their business through. They will majority, the whole business of government would become occasionally be defeated and, if they believe that the unworkable and the Government would be unable to issue is fundamental, they can ask for a motion of get their programme through, which would create some confidence to enable them to survive. It is not a barrier sort of constitutional crisis. To be fair, that argument is to the kind of change that I and others have recommended not made only by Labour Members. Mr Vernon Bogdanor, to say that a Government might from time to time have for example, who we are often told is a great constitutional to amend or withdraw their proposals because they expert, has constantly opined that that is a fundamental lacked parliamentary consent. The parliamentary consent flaw in any such approach. Although I can understand is what matters, not the Government’s wishes. why the Labour party adopts that view, because there is a political interest in putting forward such an argument, I find it very difficult to understand why such a learned Andrew Bridgen: May I drag my right hon. and gentleman has come to this conclusion—and I hope learned Friend back to a point he made earlier in his that he reads this speech. eloquent speech? He said that he did not wish to create two classes of MP.Indeed, there is only one class of MP in this place. However, do we not already have two Chris Bryant: The right hon. and learned Gentleman classes of MPs in our constituencies, because the work might like to know that Mr Bogdanor was the tutor of load of English MPs is far higher than that of Members the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland—[Interruption.] Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) makes a sedentary comment, but if the work load of MPs in Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I have no doubt that he was. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is not less than Eric Anderson was the headmaster who taught Tony that of English MPs, what are the devolved Governments Blair, but I do not think that either could be held doing and what is their purpose? 611 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 612

Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I know the point my hon. a simple and innocuous-looking piece of legislation can Friend is making, and it has some validity, but he takes do the most pernicious damage. I will come on to the argument too far. Certainly, the constituency whether I think it is innocuous later. correspondence with which a Scotland, Wales or Northern It is always great to hear the right hon. and learned—and Ireland Member deals must be substantially less, as gallant, and doubtless many other things besides— many issues that the rest of us have drawn to our [Laughter.] Other words, which he might not like so attention would be a matter for the Scottish Parliament, much, are coming to mind now. It is always difficult not Welsh Assembly or Northern Ireland Assembly. Nature to think of the right hon. and learned Member for East abhors a vacuum, however, and none of us has enough Lothian—sorry, for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind)—as time to do all the things that we would like to do in this a Scottish MP, and I suppose that in many regards he Parliament. Although many of our Scottish, Welsh or still is, but he is a Scottish MP for an English seat. Northern Irish colleagues might not have as much work Several hon. Members think that I am an English of that kind, I assume that that gives them more time, if Member for a Welsh seat, but I am thoroughly Welsh, they so wish, to take part in debates on wider, national and Jeremy Paxman had to apologise when he maintained, issues and on matters that affect their constituents. It is in his latest book, that I was not. not as if they sit around wondering, “How should I spend my day?” The naturally indolent may be in that The right hon. and learned Gentleman is right to position and enjoying every moment, and that is for our maintain that Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish Members constituents to come to a judgment on, but a good of Parliament have no diminished role just because of Member of Parliament never has a shortage of legitimate devolution. In many debates, they bring a specific interest matters, affecting constituents in Scotland, Wales and and point of view that adds to the whole equation. The Northern Ireland, to occupy their time. hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen), who has departed the scene, said that Wales I conclude more or less where I began: let us not get and Scotland MPs must, by definition, have less casework, too involved in constitutional proprieties. The essence which is certainly not my experience. If anything, many of the British constitution is its flexibility and ability to constituents, in the process of trying to achieve redress evolve to meet changing circumstances. When, for the for their individual concern, try to play the Assembly first time since the Act of Union, three of the four Member off against the Member of Parliament. As the component parts of the kingdom have their own Parliament Welsh Assembly also has regional Members, my experience or Assembly, the principle of fairness is paramount. is that those from other political parties who failed to be The approach that I have suggested would meet that elected in constituencies end up trying to play a semi- requirement in a fairly simple and straightforward constituency role. Often, that leads to a considerable way. There may be other solutions, but it is important to enhancement of the amount of work done. I make no recognise that a solution is needed, and the quicker we complaint about that, but I think that those who assume, achieve it the better. from their English seat, that a Welsh Assembly and a Scottish Parliament result in Welsh and Scottish MPs 10.21 am having less casework, are wrong. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I welcome the There are many different kinds of casework. There is contribution of the hon. Member for West Worcestershire casework such as a miners compensation scheme, with (Harriett Baldwin), who has not been in the House long which thousands of people want help going through the and yet already has managed to grasp firmly with both legal process. Then there is casework such as, “I think hands the nettle of one of the more complicated it’s an absolute outrage that you ever thought of voting constitutional matters that has faced the country, I for this piece of legislation.” I get very little of the latter would say, for considerably longer than she suggested. and a lot of the former. In different constituencies It achieved a name, and once something has a name it around the land, some Members have a lot of immigration achieves greater prominence—because of Irish Home cases. I have had only about three immigration cases Rule. However, when we first started binding together during my time as a Member of Parliament. Casework the different bits of the Union, there were profound varies between constituencies, and it is not appropriate discussions about how many Members of Parliament of to legislate directly in relation to that. both Houses should be from each of the constituent parts. To all intents and purposes, that was a very Mr Stewart Jackson: Is the hon. Gentleman seriously similar debate. suggesting that, with constituencies in Scotland and I was with the hon. Lady for part of her contribution, Wales having significantly smaller electorates than those but then she took us to the Welsh Grand Committee. in England, list system Members, devolved Parliament Anyone who suggests that that is an answer to anything, Members and MPs, such MPs have the same work I am afraid, has completely lost me. My experience of loads as English constituency Members? If so, does he the Welsh grandstanding Committee is that, for the have any academic evidence to support that, because most part, it is not as useful as it might seem to those I am quite sceptical? who do not have to attend it. Chris Bryant: I think “Sceptical” might be the hon. Harriett Baldwin: Does the hon. Gentleman accept, Gentleman’s middle name. I see he is smiling—I have however, that the Bill stops well short of such Committees, managed to get a smile out of him; that must be a first. and would be a simple and innocuous piece of legislation He is now trying not to smile. Now he is laughing. that he could wholeheartedly support? The only point I would make to the hon. Gentleman is that there is no academic evidence, and probably Chris Bryant: Was it Socrates—I cannot remember—who never will be. All that we have is anecdotal evidence. I said that a small book was always a bad book? Sometimes merely offer my own evidence—I have not seen my 613 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 614 work load diminish compared with that of my predecessor, exactly like an elected Chamber—we will reach a point who did not have a Welsh Assembly to contend with. at which there will be absolutely no check on the power The hon. Gentleman is right that a constituency with a of the Executive. There will be no check by virtue of the smaller number of people might mean that the Member time that the second Chamber can take to delay legislation, concerned has fewer people contacting them, but it and no check in this House because, by definition, the might also mean that access to the Member for constituents Government have a majority. We may have to address is more difficult and that it involves considerable travelling that problem through the way in which we interpret the around the constituency. Anyway, that is a matter for a Standing Orders of the House. different debate. The right hon. and learned Member for Kensington Sir Malcolm Rifkind: The hon. Gentleman has been referred to the issue of whether there should be an kind enough to say that he does not think that a English Parliament. He is right to argue that there is a double-majority requirement would create an unworkable danger that we would end up with two Governments. situation for the Government. The only argument—in Who would take possession of Downing street? Presumably, fact, it is not even an argument, but just a word—that we would have a set of English Ministers, in addition to he has used to indicate his reason for opposing such a British Ministers, and so on. I am not sure that is the requirement is that it would cause “confusion”. What direction in which British voters want to go. The hon. does he mean by that? Member for West Worcestershire referred to the fact that on the one occasion when we had a referendum on Chris Bryant: I shall deal later with an issue that whether there should be devolved responsibilities within relates directly to the point of the Bill, and I think that the English regions, people decided, largely because the right hon. and learned Gentleman will then understand they did not want more politicians, not to go down that why I believe there is a problem. [Interruption.] He is route. now confused, but I hope that I shall be able to rescue In parenthesis, let me say briefly that I hear regularly, him from his confusion in a moment or two. not from the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington As I said to the hon. Member for West Worcestershire, but from others, that this is the mother of Parliaments. I this is an age-old issue. There is a meretricious argument, again say that John Bright meant that England was the which the hon. Lady steered away from today—although mother of Parliaments and that it was a very difficult she dangled it in front of us a little bit—that it is and complicated birth. The effortless English superiority patently absurd for Members whose constituents will that sometimes arises in these debates is unfortunate. not be affected by an individual piece of legislation to The right hon. and learned Gentleman referred to be able to vote on it. That is, at any rate, a paraphrase of Wales, and I was reminded of a story, which may not be something that she said. My response is “All that glisters apocryphal, of Charlotte Church singing before George is not gold.” W. Bush when he was President—a meeting of two If we decide that Members can vote only on matters great minds, obviously. that affect their constituents directly—or even indirectly, When Charlotte Church was introduced to the President, I suppose—we end up with the question of who runs he asked, “Where are you from?” She said, “Wales.” He the country. At any one moment, on any one piece of asked, “What state is that in?” , and she said “Terrible.” legislation, there is uncertainty, and in the case of Discussions about issues such as this are not always Finance Bills in particular there is a real problem. The informed by great intelligence. issue is not just what the Government propose, but what Members can or cannot amend. Some money Bills have The right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned effect only in England, but the danger is that a money the possibility of an English Grand Committee. It has Bill could be amended in a way that caused it to have an been suggested in the past that such a Committee implication elsewhere. should sit in the Chamber, because it would obviously have a significant number of members. During the last Harriett Baldwin: Can the hon. Gentleman give me Parliament we discussed the possibility of regional Grand an example of a money Bill that might affect only Committees and arguments were presented both for England? I am not sure that my research has identified and against the idea, but it has fallen by the wayside. one. I am not convinced by the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s argument in favour of a requirement for a Chris Bryant: There are money Bills attached to double majority. Neither House has ever operated a many pieces of legislation. There will be money Bills in system of secondary mandates. relation to the education Bill and the national health service Bill, for instance. However, I think that the hon. Sir Malcolm Rifkind: So what? Lady is referring to Finance Bills. It is true that the vast majority of Finance Bills have implications throughout Chris Bryant: It is true that innovation is sometimes a the United Kingdom, although obviously there will be good thing, but I think that it would lead to confusion modifications in relation to Scotland if the Scotland in this instance. Bill is passed. Elements of a future Finance Bill would I am afraid that I am going to disappoint the right not apply in Scotland. Indeed, elements of a Finance hon. and learned Gentleman now. He expected me to Bill today already do not apply in Scotland, Northern argue that a Government who lost a piece of legislation Ireland or Wales. would fall, but I am not going to argue that at all. In My second point is that it is phenomenally difficult fact, the danger is that as we move towards an elected to be clear about what constitutes the territorial extent second Chamber—and over the past few weeks we have not just of a particular piece of legislation, but of its seen both sides of the second Chamber behaving almost transition through the House. It would seem on the face 615 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 616

[Chris Bryant] I want to give the reason why I think the Bill is being introduced. Although it is fascinating to know the of it that, for instance, the Bill that became the Health territorial extent of any Bill or clause, the only purpose Act 2006 was purely an England Bill. Most people of knowing that must surely be, as the hon. Lady said, would consider that to be the case. The Bill made to ensure that Members of the House vote only on provision in relation to smoke-free premises, the purpose legislation that directly affects them. That is a misguided being to ban smoking in public places in England. On intention. In practice, that would mean that we ended 14 February 2006 the House debated new clause 5, up with more Bills, and Second and Third Readings and which replaced the original clause 3. It provided that Committee stages. If we decide that English MPs can “The appropriate national authority may make regulations vote only on English legislation, who will vote on Welsh providing for specified descriptions of premises, or specified areas clauses? Just Welsh MPs? Would only Welsh MPs be within specified descriptions of premises, not to be smoke-free”. able to attend the Committee to take the Bill through? I It then listed a series of places that might be exempted. think that we have never had a Welsh Secretary of State Subsection (5), for example, stated: for Wales under a Conservative Government, although I may be wrong. We would have to allow the Minister to “If both a club premises certificate and a premises licence authorising the consumption of alcohol on the premises have sit on the Committee but they would not be able to vote effect in respect of any premises, those premises are to be treated on their own legislation, which seems patently absurd. for the purposes of this section as if only the premises licence had effect”. Harriett Baldwin: With respect, the hon. Gentleman is missing the whole point. Obviously, legislation will Andrea Leadsom: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? have different effects in different parts of the UK. That will be spelt out in the legislation. All the issues that he Chris Bryant: I will, but I shall want to return to my is raising are complete red herrings that the Bill would specific argument. address. Chris Bryant: No, I honestly think that the hon. Lady Andrea Leadsom: I thank the hon. Gentleman. Given is completely naive in relation to this matter. She said at that the whole purpose of the Bill is to make clearer in the beginning of her speech that she thought that it was legislation exactly what different legislative proposals a fundamental principle that MPs should be able to relate to in terms of the geographical area of the United vote only on those things that affect their constituents. Kingdom, surely his argument is one in favour of the That is the only purpose of having such a provision in Bill. any legislation. If she introduces a piece of legislation or a Standing Order—I will come to parliamentary Chris Bryant: No, it is an argument against it. I privilege in a moment—that would require MPs not to remember clearly the rows that took place in both the vote on a piece of legislation, or that would shame Chamber and the Clerk’s Office about whether the way people into not voting on a piece of legislation, she will in which the amendments to a health Bill were being create a real problem. If we assert that only English selected would mean that Wales was or was not covered. MPs can take part in the proceedings on English legislation, Because most Members wanted to remove the provision table amendments, amend Bills, seek to speak and vote that would allow the Secretary of State to exempt on that legislation—that is where her Bill is driving private members’ clubs in England, they actually removed us—there will be a problem for English legislation, not the provision that allowed an exemption for private least because large numbers of Scottish and Welsh MPs members’ clubs in Wales. It may well be that the Welsh have been English Ministers dealing with largely English Assembly would have wanted to do that itself anyway, matters. There are and have been Scottish and Welsh but it had no choice. It could not make such a provision. Ministers in, for example, the Department of Health I can tell the hon. Lady that that row was quite vociferous. and the Department for Education who have largely My point is this: I do not think it is possible to be dealt with matters that refer only to England. clear. The original legislation might be clear, but people might want to amend it, and why should they not be Andrea Leadsom: People in the country do not want able to do so? If the parliamentary draftspeople say, to see Scottish MPs voting as Ministers on English-only “This Bill will cover only England”, the number of Bills legislation. Surely the hon. Gentleman can see that going through the House will have to be doubled, if not there is a fairness issue. It is surely not a bad thing if trebled, because there will have to be a separate Wales people might be shamed into feeling that they cannot Bill and a separate Scotland Bill. represent English-only issues if they are a Scottish MP, and by the way, the Bill is not proposing that.

Harriett Baldwin: With the greatest respect, surely in Chris Bryant: I think that the hon. Lady has just let such circumstances it would be necessary only to say, the cat out of the bag. That is the whole point of her “This Bill applies to all three areas.” My Bill provides argument, is it not? There is no other reason to introduce for flexibility in order to avoid precisely the kind of row such as measure. The only reason is to shame people. that the hon. Gentleman has described. That is what the hon. Lady wants to do. I think that she is effectively saying that she does not want me as a Chris Bryant: But who gets to decide the interpretation Welsh MP to vote on anything that she believes to be an of what applies and what does not apply? That is the English-only matter. Is that what she believes? problem. A series of issues arises. A decision is made by parliamentary draftspeople, or Clerks, or the Speaker. Andrea Leadsom: Is the hon. Gentleman asking me That would bring them into the debate, which would be or my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire a mistake. (Harriett Baldwin)? 617 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 618

Chris Bryant: Sorry, I am slightly cross-eyed. I meant However, as the hon. Lady has said, the whole business the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea of parliamentary privilege comes into play. It has been Leadsom). a fundamental assumption from when the first commoners were allowed to attend parliamentary proceedings under Andrea Leadsom: This is obviously my hon. Friend’s Simon de Montfort in 1258 that grievances that they Bill. She is not proposing any such legislation. She is presented on behalf of the people should be able to be merely proposing to clarify the territorial extent of any presented without any difference between one and the Bill that goes through the House. For my own part, in other Members. direct answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question, I think that it is unfair to you, as a Welsh Member representing Jacob Rees-Mogg rose— Welsh interests, voting on English-only interests, or indeed being a Minister for English-only interests. That Chris Bryant: I thought that going back to the 13th century is my personal opinion and I would not like you to might stimulate the hon. Gentleman. attribute that to my hon. Friend whose Bill this is. She is not making that proposal. Jacob Rees-Mogg: The right of shires to send people for address of grievance pre-dates Simon de Montfort. It is the boroughs that came in at that point. Mr Speaker: Order. May I gently point out that I have been accused of many things but not of being a Chris Bryant: Simon de Montfort invited four knights Welsh Member? from each of the shires and six from Yorkshire in 1258 to present in Parliament their grievances on behalf of Chris Bryant: Although I am sure that you would not others. We do not know that all the knights attended. mind, Mr Speaker. It is not a libel. It is not like being Of the ones who did attend, we only know that because called an English Member when you are not an English they presented expenses and had them paid, so this Member. [HON.MEMBERS: “Oh.”] We lost badly in the problem has been with us since Mauge Vavasour had rugby last week so we are still somewhat wounded on his payments made in Michaelmas 1258. It was a significant these matters. moment. The burgesses obviously arrived after 1258, though earlier in the 13th century there were occasions I recognise that the hon. Member for West Worcestershire when some burgesses from the Cinque ports were invited, has dressed her Bill up so that it does not look like it is and some from those cities where there were a large moving in that direction, but many Members might number of Jewish residents were brought to Parliament only support the Bill because they want it to move in to debate specific issues. that direction. As I said earlier, I understand that some people are concerned about the issue in the country. However, I cannot think of a single Parliament in the Jacob Rees-Mogg: The knights of the shires came much world, including Spain and many other countries—this earlier than that—they come from the reign of Richard is not the only argument that I would use in relation to I. That is attested thoroughly. this—where there is asymmetric devolution and MPs cannot vote on every piece of legislation that is brought Chris Bryant: Well, not all 37 shires had representation, before them. As the right hon. and learned Member for and they certainly did not have that as of right. I am Kensington said, to go down that route is a nationalist perfectly happy to debate this at another time, but for argument—not as in British nationalist, but as in Welsh, now Mr Speaker has got that slightly fascinated but Scottish or Irish nationalist—and will unpick the Union also slightly irritated face on. in the end. Therefore, if the hon. Member for West It would be very dangerous to dismantle the fundamental Worcestershire really believes in the Union, it is a bit principle of the equality of all Members of this House. difficult to advance that argument. That is why I think that, in the end, the direction of travel the hon. Member for West Worcestershire is moving in with this Bill is an unfortunate one. Harriett Baldwin: As I said earlier, it is because of that belief that it is important that we have clarity in our Harriett Baldwin: Let me reiterate once again that legislation about which parts of the UK it affects. Is the none of the concerns the hon. Gentleman is raising hon. Gentleman arguing that we have to just continue apply to the Bill. to park the issue and not address it, thus undermining the Union? Chris Bryant: As I have said, legislation is about not just what it does, but the declaratory effect that it has. Chris Bryant: I would like to see the issue addressed The hon. Lady referred to the intended consequences of in different ways—as it has been addressed in other her Bill, but it would also have unintended consequences. countries. For example, the role of the second Chamber As her colleague, the hon. Member for South needs to be looked at. It has been embarrassing that the Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), has already in vast majority of people who have been appointed to the effect told us, press releases will be sent out the moment second Chamber in the past few years have been from the Bill comes into force condemning some Members London and the south-east of England. That is almost for taking part in debates and votes on matters that the inevitable when we have an appointments system. I Bill declares as being for England only. I presume that would prefer to move to an elected system, where we there would also be condemnation of English MPs had more people representing the whole of the UK. It taking part in debates and votes on legislation that might be possible to devise a better answer to the West applies only to Wales. If we are going to reduce the Lothian question through reform of the second Chamber number of Members of Parliament for Wales to 30, it on an elected basis. will be difficult to take such legislation through effectively 619 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 620

[Chris Bryant] The answer to that is that if left answered, the question would gnaw away at the bonds that hold the Union if there are not enough Back Benchers to be able to together. I am a Unionist and the last thing I ever want make proper informed decisions about the measures to see is the Union of our United Kingdom being under discussion. The direction of travel the hon. Member ripped up. That is why we must turn our minds to for West Worcestershire is taking us down is unfortunate. finding an answer to this question. My hon. Friend the I also think there will be unfortunate direct consequences, Member for West Worcestershire rightly said that Members in that the number of Bills will increase, which will representing English constituencies get lobbied by our make things more difficult for us, and the number of constituents on why some Scottish Members vote on clauses will also increase. We will end up with worse matters that apply only to England. I am not saying that legislation because, as the hon. Lady has said, draftsmen that is the primary topic of conversation down the “Nut will be required to try to provide absolute clarity that and Squirrel” every Friday night, but it does come up measures apply specifically to England, for example, or sometimes. to Wales alone. Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): On a point of Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con) rose— order, Mr Speaker. I know that you have been in the Chair since the business of the House started this Chris Bryant: That was going to be my last sentence, morning so you may not be aware that the High Court but I will allow the hon. Gentleman to intervene. has just ruled in favour of the six local authorities who took the Secretary of State for Education to court over Damian Hinds: Have any of these adverse effects his Building Schools for the Future announcement. You arisen as a result of the current statement of territorial will be aware, Mr Speaker, of the extent of the feeling extent? on both sides of the House about this decision, and you will also appreciate the grave implications it will have Chris Bryant: Which specific declaration is the hon. for the policy of the Department for Education. It also Gentleman referring to? calls into question the competence of the Secretary of State. Mr Speaker, have you received any notification Damian Hinds: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman that the Secretary of State will come to the House and means by “declaration” as I am relatively new to all this, explain the botched decision he made and say how he but Bills currently have a statement of territorial extent, will move forward to make sure capital programmes for yet I am not aware of certain Members being shamed schools, including in my own constituency, will now be into not commenting on them. reinstated?

Chris Bryant: Such declarations do not specify whether Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for a Bill is exclusively English, Welsh or Northern Irish, or his point of order. I have received no indication from applies to all four territories or just two—or whatever. any Minister at the Department for Education of an There has not been a problem thus far, and that is why I intention or desire to make a statement in the House do not think there is any reason to make changes today. It would, of course, be open to a Minister to do through legislation. I am even more sceptical about this so however, and the hon. Gentleman has put his point Bill than the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) on the record. It will have been heard by Members normally is about everything. If it proceeds to Second sitting on the Treasury Bench, including the Leader of Reading, we will want to scrutinise and amend it robustly. the House, and I am sure there will be other opportunities As other Members have revealed, there are major problems fully to explore these matters in the days and weeks with these measures that the hon. Member for West ahead. Worcestershire has not considered. Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) 10.53 am (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Given the significant financial implications of this decision, Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I congratulate have you had any indication from a member of the my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire Treasury ministerial team that they will come to address (Harriett Baldwin) on introducing the Bill. As we have the House today on the matter? heard, the question it addresses has excited people throughout history. I will not add to the exchange about Mr Speaker: No. history between the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and my hon. Friend the Member for North Iain Stewart: I was about to give an example of why East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), but in its current it is still extremely valid to address the West Lothian guise the question has been around since the late 1970s, question. Last May’s general election did not produce a when Tam Dalyell, the former Member for West Lothian, parliamentary majority for any one party, but it did posed it during deliberations on the Scotland Bill in produce a majority in England for the Conservative 1977, although I believe it was Enoch Powell who party; the Conservatives won a clear overall majority of coined the phrase “the West Lothian question” during the seats in England. I accept that no party commanded those debates. an overall majority so we had to proceed to a coalition Like the Barnett formula, this question is one of the Government, but an alternative coalition to the current perennial issues in respect of devolution. I often ask one could have been found, such as the “rainbow option” myself why that is the case. Should we simply not ask of Labour Members, Liberal Democrats, nationalists, the question any more, as Lord Irvine has suggested? Is Ulster Members and independents. In that case, the this just a constitutional nicety that we should ignore? people of England who had voted clearly for a Conservative 621 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 622

Government would have been denied that Government, National party, whose Members are clearly here in and we would, I think, have entered uncharted constitutional excessive number to debate this matter. They do have a waters. I think there would have been a strong uprising perfect option, because under their solution the number in England on the basis that the will of the English of Scottish Members in this House would be zero and voters had been thwarted. That situation did not arise, the West Lothian question would therefore not arise. but it could have, so this is a very live issue. However, for all sorts of economic, cultural and social A similar situation may arise in this Parliament over reasons, I do not wish the Union to end. a vote to reverse the ban on hunting. That ban applies The second option is to go back to the arrangement only to England and Wales from a vote in this House, that was in place before we had the Scottish Parliament, because the matter is devolved entirely to the Scottish either by abolishing that Parliament or by following Parliament. Let us suppose there was a clear majority the intriguing suggestion made by my hon. Friend the among English and Welsh Members to reverse that Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) ban, but in the House as a whole, with the addition of that Members of this House who represent Scottish Scottish Members, there was a wish to keep the law as it constituencies should then form the Scottish Parliament is. Why should Scottish Members be able to influence and on certain days—for example, Wednesdays and the decision in England or in England and Wales? That Thursdays—only English Members would debate in situation could arise and, although it might not be the this place. I fear that that is not a practical option at the most dominant issue in our postbags, we have to provide moment. There is certainly no appetite in Scotland for for that eventuality. reversing the Scottish Parliament, and as it was set up by a referendum it can be undone only by a referendum. Mr Chope: My hon. Friend is making an excellent That may become an option at some point, but I do not point. Will he also consider what might happen in this see it as a viable option now. Nevertheless, the suggestion review that we have been promised? What happens if would provide a neat solution to the West Lothian the commission recommends changing the arrangements question. to answer the West Lothian question, but that is then unrepresentative of English opinion? The third option is to move to a fully federal United Kingdom, with one United Kingdom Parliament legislating on the big national issues—the economy, international Iain Stewart: My hon. Friend raises an intriguing affairs, defence and so on—and the Scottish Parliament, possibility. I hope that the commission does report, but Welsh Assembly, Northern Ireland Assembly and a we cannot move to a new arrangement without the body for England then dealing, on an equal basis, with agreement of those in the existing system; that is part of the issues affecting those areas. Such a system works our process of constitutional evolution. I hope that we perfectly well in Germany, Australia, Canada and many do get that commission and I gently encourage my other countries, but the problem would be how to solve Front-Bench colleagues to speed it up, because I will the “English question” in a federal situation. wholeheartedly support it. I wish to discuss an intriguing point made by a One option would be to have a separate English former Secretary of State for Scotland in the previous Parliament with the same powers as the Scottish Parliament. Government, Helen Liddell. It relates to a separate As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for issue but it makes the argument well. When we were Kensington said, and as others have argued, the difficulty debating whether the United Kingdom should join the with that is that England would represent more than euro, the then Chancellor, the right hon. Member for 80% of the population and more than 80% of the gross Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), set out five domestic product in one unit. I cannot think of a stable tests by which we should judge whether it was appropriate modern democracy with an advanced economy where for the United Kingdom to do so. She made the point there is such an overwhelming dominant part in a that a sixth test should form part of the overall federation. Any other country with a federal system considerations, which was the opportunity cost of not contains two or more big states that balance each other joining: was there a cost to the United Kingdom of not out. For example, Canada contains Ontario and Quebec, joining the euro? Similarly, we should consider the and Germany contains Bavaria and North Rhine- opportunity cost of not addressing the West Lothian Westphalia. If England were to be a separate entity in a question because if it is left unchecked at some point it federal system, the arrangement would have too much will come back to undermine the Union. As a Unionist, of an imbalance. that is the last thing that I want. My right hon. and The other option would be to atomise England into learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm regions—for example, the north-east, the south-west, Rifkind) was correct to say that this is an evolutionary Greater London and so on. There may be various process. I did not have the benefit of being tutored by permutations, but there is simply no appetite in England Professor Bogdanor, but I was always taught by the for that, even in the part of England where there was, equally eminent Professor Michael Rush at the university allegedly, the highest demand for a regional government— of Exeter that the British constitution is a product of the north-east. When people there were given the option evolution, not revolution. We should proceed on that of a regional government a few years ago, they basis, but that should not preclude us from turning our overwhelmingly rejected it. In addition, we would face minds to this issue. enormous difficulty in dividing England up. Our debates Theoretically, there are three perfect solutions to the on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies West Lothian question, although I believe that we should Bill have included an argument about a cross-border reject them because they have other consequences that constituency involving Cornwall and Devon. Goodness are either impractical or undesirable. The first option is knows what would happen if we tried to draw a boundary that the Union ends, which is the wish of the Scottish involving Gloucestershire, Cornwall, Dorset and other 623 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 624

[Iain Stewart] Andrew Bridgen: The previous Government may well have had the majority of seats in England, but they did areas to constitute “the south-west of England”. I not have the majority of the votes. simply do not believe that federalism is a viable option in this country. Chris Bryant: Yes, they did. All that brings us to an imperfect answer, as we are not going to create a perfect solution to the West Andrew Bridgen: Once again, the hon. Gentleman Lothian question unless we go down one of those three comments from a sedentary position. The previous avenues. The Bill is a helpful first step in paving the way Government did not have the majority of the votes in to finding that answer. I have looked at all the options England. I am a Unionist, and I wholeheartedly support over many years, although not for as long as my right the Union. The biggest risk posed by not addressing the hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington. I West Lothian question is that the dissatisfaction of have ruled out some and I do take seriously the comment English voters, rather than the dissatisfaction of Scottish made by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) or Welsh electors, will force the Union apart. that we would encounter difficulties if we started excluding Iain Stewart: My hon. Friend makes an important point. Members from voting on particular bits of legislation. I Sadly, I do not have the statistics, but I believe that my strongly hold the view that every Member in this House hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire is equal and when we start tinkering with that, we enter (Andrew Bridgen), rather than the hon. Member for dangerous waters. Rhondda, is correct about the outcome of the 2005 I do believe, however, that there is a solution and I am election in England. Hon. Members with BlackBerrys happy to endorse the one proposed by my right hon. may be able to provide us with that information. Perhaps and learned Friend: some form of a double majority. In the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend will debate such a system no Member would be excluded from that one in the bar afterwards. participating in a debate or voting on a particular Bill Doing nothing is more dangerous than doing something. or part of a Bill, but there should then be a requirement I am yet to hear a convincing view that the double-majority that if that Bill applied wholly or exclusively to one part option is worse than the current situation. The approach of the United Kingdom, an additional majority would should, of course, be gradual. We should evolve our be required among Members from that area. constitution, rather than smashing it up and piecing it together again, which is why I am happy to support the Chris Bryant: But is the difficulty not that, for the most Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for West part, Governments introduce legislation in our system Worcestershire. I hope that the Bill is read a Second and a Government who were nervous about their majority time today and that it gets a fair wind in its later stages. would simply ensure that Bills contained separate clauses relating to Wales, to Northern Ireland and to Scotland, so we would not be any further forward? 11.13 am Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I want to Iain Stewart: I would answer that by saying that a speak briefly in support of my hon. Friend the Member Government who do not command the majority in all for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) and her parts of the kingdom should approach with caution short, simple and splendid Bill. legislating against the will of a part where they do not The previous Government started a number of command a majority. For example, one of the main constitutional journeys that did not have clear destinations. arguments for devolution was that this place would The reform of the other place is one example, and legislate against the wishes of Scotland, if the Government devolution is another—as my right hon. and learned did not command a majority in Scotland. If the Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) Government do not command a majority, they should has correctly pointed out, devolution is more than one approach with care legislating for the whole kingdom, if journey. that does not command support across the board. The Bill does not tell us exactly where we are going. It Chris Bryant: One should assume that Governments does not buy us a map or a TomTom, but it points the will be unscrupulous. Hon. Members are always scrupulous, vehicle in the correct direction and provides greater but Governments, in their corporate management of visibility of the road ahead. The real divide is between taking business through the House, might be unscrupulous. those who think that the West Lothian question is a There is the myth that the previous Labour Government question that needs to be answered, and those who did not have a majority in England, but they had the think that it is a question that might just go away. As my majority of seats in England. I say gently to the hon. hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Gentleman that the Bill will not solve the problem. Stewart) has put it, the question needs to be answered, if we care about maintaining the Union and carrying the Iain Stewart: I will not comment on the previous people of the United Kingdom with us. Government’s approach to legislation. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) discussed the declaratory effect of passing this Bill. He is right, Chris Bryant: It is the same now. but the declaratory effect would be a good thing, because it would make it clear that this House thinks that the Iain Stewart: I beg to differ. question needs to be answered. The Bill does not answer As I have said, there is an opportunity cost to not the question, but it makes it more urgent. addressing the issue. My contention is that doing nothing We have discussed a number of options today, such carries a greater price than doing something, which is as the double-majority option. The double-lock system, why I strongly welcome the Bill. which is slightly different, was proposed by the taskforce 625 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 626 on democracy, which was chaired by the Secretary of Bob Stewart: I thank my hon. Friend—well, not my State for Justice. The double-lock system is an elegant friend, but he could be, if he is nicer. I thank the hon. solution to the problem, where the whole House would Gentleman. vote on Second Reading and Third Reading, but only It will become increasingly important that we address English MPs would be allowed to vote in Committee this problem. I am sure now, too, that that the problem and on Report. The great advantage of that system is will be helped by some sort of solution, such as that that it would force people to negotiate. If, as a side suggested by my right hon., learned and former Friend effect, there were slightly less legislation, it would not be the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), such a bad thing. [Interruption.] I do not accept that who is not in his position, but whom I shall make it up there would automatically be more legislation caused with. Before you were here, Madam Deputy Speaker, I by Governments duplicating Bills to cover the different called him “old friend”, and he said, “Not as old as constituent countries of the kingdom. you.” [Interruption.] I am so sorry; I am getting into As I have said, the Bill is a first step. It is not the more trouble now. Forgive me, Madam Deputy Speaker. solution to the West Lothian question, but it does I was referring to my right hon., learned and somewhat enable it. When it comes to constitutional change, baby gallant Friend the Member for Kensington, who produced steps are good steps—incrementalism is a good thing, an elegant solution that would not be a big problem to rather than making great lurches forward. The constitution sort out: the double vote, which my hon. Friend the is an organic and delicate thing, which we change at our Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), who peril. In her Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for West shares the same name as me and who must be slightly Worcestershire neatly gets around the two major objections Scottish, as I am, suggested that he endorsed as well. on territorial extent: namely, the potential politicisation of the office of the Speaker and the implications for the Chris Bryant: I keep on thinking up more reasons Barnett formula. why I dislike that double mandate, so I will suggest I am happy to support the Bill. I hope that it is read a another one: one of the reasons why, traditionally, we Second time today and that it completes its later stages. have granted that a Bill should be given a Second Reading is so that it can be amended. Quite often, hon. Members will allow a debate on Second Reading to 11.16 am proceed because they want to amend something. That is Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Surely this is all the danger. Many hon. Members might want to amend about fairness for constituents who have a Member of a Bill to include Welsh or Scottish provisions, but they Parliament. It is also about a Member of Parliament’s might have been prohibited from taking part in the right to represent their constituents. debate on Second Reading, and that rather conflicts with the whole purpose of such a debate. I agree with the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) that it will be difficult to sort out the problem. As we have heard, the problem goes all the way back to Bob Stewart: I thank the hon. Gentleman for, once Simon de Montfort. Equally, we must remember the again, being so perceptive as to pick a few little holes. I problems with the Irish Home Rule Bills in the late accept that this is not an easy problem; there is no easy 19th century, which were solved—kind of. We had fix. That is why my hon. Friend the Member for West Stormont until 1972, which I can recall operating when Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) is suggesting a gradual, I was a soldier. slow change, which I support. But I also support the idea that, when the commission sits this year, as we The issue will become increasingly important as power, learn, it considers a solution. I prefer evolution, rather particularly the power to raise taxes, is dissipated down. than revolution. I would prefer that we start to address As I understand it, the Scottish Parliament might be this problem, and I am attracted to the idea presented able to raise 2p in the pound on income tax. Is that by my new friend, my right hon. and learned Friend the correct? I think that it is. The Scotland Bill may allow Member for Kensington, who has departed for a coffee. more discretion on that. When one starts talking about I endorse in the meantime my hon. Friend’s Bill. money as well as issues such as health, education and prisons, there is a big difference. It is important that we find a way ahead, but it will not be easy. 11.22 am I have had a few tangles with the Table Office, when I Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I congratulate used what I thought were plain words in a question. I my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire have had to go there several times after my homework (Harriett Baldwin) on presenting the Bill. The contributions was sent back, but I am sure that the clever people in the so far have shown Table Office can design a form of words that will help. “what a tangled web we weave”. Surely it should be possible to identify whether a Bill I support devolution as far as it has gone, but I am a concerns England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. great supporter of the Union. That is why my hon. Friend has done a service by promoting further debate. Chris Bryant: That has not always been my experience of the Table Office, which is often directional and Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman started the quotation forceful in saying that one cannot table a particular but did not finish it: question in, for example, Welsh questions. In such cases, it is often drawn into rows. “Oh! what a tangled web we weave Earlier, I suggested that Labour won more votes than When first we practice to deceive”. the Conservatives in the 2005 election. Actually, we I am sure that he is not suggesting that the Bill is were 70,000 votes short but 92 seats ahead. deceiving. 627 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 628

Martin Vickers: That is why I used only the first half I support the Bill because it allows the debate to of the quotation. I would not dream of suggesting continue. Perhaps we are on the road to a more federal anything such as deception. system, and if we are it is essential that we stop seriously I recognise the growing concern—irritation would be to debate and consider all possible aspects, but the Bill one way of putting it—among my constituents, who has a downside if taken to its logical conclusion. Although rightly or wrongly feel that there is now an injustice and I represent Cleethorpes, I live in the neighbouring that Scotland has a greater say and influence over issues constituency of Great Grimsby.Although my representative than they do in . We in the Cleethorpes is not in his place, I am sure that he would not mind my constituency are in the Yorkshire and Humber region. mentioning one aspect of Grimsby. There is something We do not like that, but the fact is that, officially, we called the Grimsby Pastures Act, which was first passed seem to have been consigned to it, where there are in 1849 and renewed in 1949, and it relates to the almost 54 constituencies. So, in theory, the 59 constituencies unique system of freemen of what was the borough of that make up Scotland could overrule my constituents’ Great Grimsby. wishes on an issue that affected only their region. Freedom of the borough is not an honorary title but Many hon. Members have talked about the designation an hereditary position. The freemen own a considerable used in Bills—for example, the Energy Bill states that it amount of land in the borough, the income from which is limited to England, Wales and Northern Ireland and is distributed to the freemen. Only a few hundred of the Education Bill states that it is limited to England them are left now. My father was a freeman, but by and Wales. It does not seem beyond the wit of man to some quirk of the system, because I was born in find a system whereby Bills were designated as applying Cleethorpes, I did not succeed and I am therefore a few only to one part of the kingdom or another. hundred pounds worse off. When that Act comes up for renewal in 2048, only the hon. Member for Great Grimsby The Bill’s great strength is that it asks for a common-sense (Austin Mitchell) would be able to vote. That guarantees approach to be taken to the process of debate and a majority, but hon. Members can understand my logic. scrutiny of draft legislation that applies only to the people of England. The anomaly that has been rather I support the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for misleadingly entitled, “the West Lothian question” exists West Worcestershire has contributed considerably to as a procedural quirk in our system. The Bill proposes the debate on the thorny West Lothian question, and I that the citizens of England be given the same representation will support the Bill in the Lobby later this morning. on draft legislation and that we who represent the people of England be given the same accountability as 11.29 am those who represent the devolved nations. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): The The thrust of the Bill is not something that is radical Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for West or unsupported but is a call for the implementation of Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) is tremendously the ideal of representation, which is the core of our important because the West Lothian question is the system. I always hesitate to use the word “fair”, but the constitutional question of the day. That question and people of my constituency feel, as I mentioned a moment reform of the House of Lords are the two issues with ago, that the system is unfair to them. The word “fairness” which politicians and parliamentarians have wrestled is used a lot in politics these days. It is rather a dangerous since just before the first world war, although no great concept for politicians. Of course, people think that solution to either has come forward. Today’s debate something is fair only if it is to their advantage. The gives us the opportunity to examine what the solution present system is seen by English people as unfair. to the question might be and how the Bill might contribute. Mention has been made of the Conservative democracy Although I am sympathetic to what the Bill is an taskforce. Its contribution to the debate has been welcome. attempt to do, I have several concerns about its details, I had rather thought that its thoughts and conclusions some of which were spelled out by the hon. Member for had been put, as with so many reports, into the litter bin Rhondda (Chris Bryant), when we get down to the of history, but we have perhaps resurrected them this approach to Bills that Governments might take. What morning. Of course, as has been mentioned, the taskforce classifications would we have? Some issues are devolved suggests that the Committee stage could be taken by to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, while some English Members if a Bill related only to England—that apply throughout the United Kingdom and others are seems perfectly reasonable—and that the whole House purely for England. A Bill might cover English issues would contribute again on Third Reading. I quote Lord and matters that are not devolved to Wales but are Hurd: devolved to Scotland. Would a Standing Order of the “The government of the United Kingdom would have to House allow English and Welsh Members to consider ensure that its English measures were acceptable to enough English that Bill, but not the Scots or the Northern Irish? What MPs—or else not put them forward. There would be nothing if one clause of a Bill related to all parts of the United extraordinary in this process: it is called politics.” Kingdom, but all the other clauses related only to England? That seems an eminently sensible contribution to the Would Members from Scotland, Wales and Northern debate. Ireland join proceedings in Committee and on Report The taskforce proposals would retain the overall to vote on that particular clause, although they had parliamentary majority of the UK Government for all been kept out of Committee and Report for every other policy and daily business. English MPs would have part of the Bill, subject to the Standing Order that reserved to them only the detailed scrutiny and amendment would follow from the Bill? The sheer complexities of of legislation that exclusively affects their constituents—the clarifying territorial extent are probably too great. residents of England—but legislation that contained Our present position is relatively straightforward. An unacceptable amendments passed in Committee could Act of Parliament can technically overrule a devolved be rejected. That seems an eminently sensible way forward. power, but Governments have not been willing to bring 629 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 630 forward such a measure because of the great constitutional election produced a clear majority for one party in investment involved in establishing the devolved authorities, England, but the result for the United Kingdom as a all of which were backed by referendums in their constituent whole was different, the UK Government should proceed parts. If the Bill were passed, England would be protected with the utmost caution and not introduce legislation purely by Standing Orders. It is almost an insult to the that would be diametrically opposed to the wishes of English to say, “We had a referendum and then a English Members. Parliament for Scotland, and we carried that out in a thorough and proper way, but for the English, we will Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend makes an important have a Standing Order.” Of course, the drawback to a and valid point. The West Lothian question is serious, Standing Order is that an incoming Government could but the answer is not necessarily one that we have been simply remove it so that all MPs could once again vote given so far. Just because the question is right, it does on all Bills in Committee and on Report. They would not mean that an answer to it would necessarily work. lose little political capital if they did so, because a My hon. Friend is correct to say that if the majority of comparatively small amount of political capital would English seats had been won by Conservatives but we have been invested to set up the previous system, unlike had ended up with a rainbow coalition, it would have under the referendums prior to setting up the systems of caused huge dissatisfaction and opposition within England, devolution in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. as well as a feeling that the Union was not working for Stage two from this Bill seems to involve fundamental England. I want the Union to succeed and prosper, so I flaws of definition and description. As my hon. Friend want an answer to the West Lothian question to come the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) suggested, forward which the English find fair and with which they it could give rise to ridiculous situations. We will shortly are comfortable. be asked by their lordships to consider whether the Isle My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for of Wight should remain an individual constituency. I Kensington was right to emphasise the issue of fairness, rather like the idea that only one Member of Parliament but such fairness needs to be met with constitutional should be able to vote on that. I know without any propriety and effectiveness. We have heard a great deal doubt which way my hon. Friend the Member for Isle about the fairness so far today, but not about a workable of Wight (Mr Turner) would vote, but I have a feeling constitutional situation, and that will not do us any that the Minister would not be entirely happy if the good because however much one dislikes the Opposition decision of the House was made exclusively by my hon. party being in government, it will be one day, and when Friend. it is in government, it must be able to get its programme We must be careful about taking territorial extent too of government through. The way to stop that programme far, and there are huge areas in which the situation of government is not to put down so many constitutional would not be clear. Let us say that we considered a man traps that that Government cannot get their business Finance Bill following the devolution of tax-raising through, but to defeat them at the ensuing general powers to Scotland. Would we go through that Bill with election and reverse the worst elements of what they different people sitting on different Committees for have done. The Bill would lead to a system that would each clause, depending on a statement made by the make it incredibly difficult for a Labour Government to Chancellor of the Exchequer? Would we have two separate get their English business through, but that is not an Finance Bills? As the hon. Member for Rhondda said, answer to the West Lothian question because it would we could have a succession of Bills to try to tease out simply mean that that Government would have to reverse regional effectiveness. It would be incredibly difficult to the protections that had been introduced, and I would make such a situation work. have the gravest concerns about such protections being established purely through Standing Orders of the House. I am afraid that I disagree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm I know that this is not in the Bill, but its purpose is to Rifkind) because there is a difference between having establish the declaration so that Standing Orders can an in-built majority to stop something throughout the then be built either to put in place the double majority five years of a Parliament, and a hung Parliament. Let suggested by my right hon. and learned Friend the us put it this way: roughly 100 seats are not English, so Member for Kensington, or to establish practice in 550 seats are English. If 300 of those 550 seats were Committee and on Report. Is it right for us to change held by Conservative Members, the Conservatives would the whole basis of legislation through Standing Orders? have a complete block on all English legislation for an Standing Orders can rightly do many things concerning entire Parliament. In a hung Parliament, there is an the hours that we sit and the way that business is acceptance among minority parties that the Government’s timetabled, but they do not tend to change the fundamental business must be carried, but the main Opposition will way in which legislation is taken through the House. oppose day in, day out throughout a hung Parliament, as we see in this hung Parliament and as we saw in the Harriett Baldwin: I thank my hon. Friend for giving 1970s. In such a situation, the official Opposition would such an eloquent speech on some of the issues surrounding have a majority of English seats, and therefore a block legislating on this subject. Does he accept that the Bill on all exclusively English legislation for the whole stops well short of giving any direction whatever as far Parliament, so the Secretaries of State for Health and as Standing Orders are concerned? It simply says that for Education would find it almost impossible to get draft legislation will outline its impact and, in a side any of their legislation through. statement, its financial impact.

Iain Stewart: My hon. Friend makes my point for me, Jacob Rees-Mogg: I thank my hon. Friend for making as does my right hon. and learned Friend the Member that point, but I was rather hoping she would not, for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind). If the general because there is a desperate tendency on Fridays towards 631 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 632

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] would not work either, for reasons that we have discussed. There was mention of the Welsh Grand Committee and motherhood-and-apple-pie Bills that say nothing very how little that was able to succeed in doing; and when much about anything in particular. If her Bill is that the Conservatives were last in government, they thought type of Bill, what on earth are we doing discussing it? If that a sop to devolution would be to have a Scottish it just says that the Minister, out of the kindness of his Grand Committee. The fact is that the governing party heart, will say a few words about where an Act applies, has to be able to get its parliamentary business through. it is completely and utterly pointless, and the House Whatever schemes it sets up will not work if that should not discuss things that are pointless. We do that fundamental principle is not followed, and will be changed on Fridays, and Madam Deputy Speaker is amazingly to the extent that they cannot be used. patient in listening to some of these discussions. So what do I suggest that the Government do? That is My hon. Friend’s Bill has to be an important stepping- the nub of it. We will have an election at some point in stone in answering the West Lothian question, or it is which the Conservatives have a clear majority in England nothing. I give her credit for having the courage to but are not the major part of the governing group. At begin to address that question, rather than just detaining that point, there will be squeals of anguish from the us here when we could be doing work in our constituency English electorate, and the Conservative party will use on a Friday. I hope that she will not try to hide behind that all it can for political advantage. We will find that the minutiae of the Bill instead of looking at the bigger the Union comes under fundamental attack. I agree picture, because that bigger picture is crucial. with my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes My hon. Friend is right to put pressure on the South (Iain Stewart) that any attack on the Union is Government to come up with a solution that can be likely to come not from the Scottish nationalists but debated in Government time. In that respect, the Bill is from English nationalists, fed up with the way that they really noble, because the Government do have to think are being treated. about the issue. It is unfair on the British—the English; I would like the Government to consider the proposal I apologise for using those two words synonymously, as that we heard earlier about allowing the two Parliaments I know the English do a great deal. and the one Assembly to come together to some extent, but I accept that that is difficult: As a result of how they Chris Bryant: And the French. were set up, it would be problematic to change them at this stage, but it may be that something could be done Jacob Rees-Mogg: The French? along those lines. Alternatively, the thing will simply have to be done in the best form of British fudge—that Chris Bryant: The French very regularly confuse “anglais” is, Labour Members, when in government, will have to with “britannique”. be enormously responsible and self-denying about what they do in England, and conventions will have to become Jacob Rees-Mogg: I thank the hon. Gentleman for very important in our constitutional settlement. If it that illuminating point. I always thought that the Auld becomes a convention, but is not formalised, that English Alliance meant that they were rather keen on the Scots, representation will have a majority, or will at least but that may be a slight diversion. accept a veto on extremely controversial measures, that may be a fudge that would work. What ought the Government to do and to think about as they approach a solution to the West Lothian It is interesting and worth noting that on both big question? They have to think about the practicalities. constitutional issues—reform of the House of Lords We have had learned discussion already today about and the West Lothian question—after 100 years of the how difficult it would be to have an English Parliament, best brains trying to find a solution, no obvious solution because one would then have an English Government, has come up. With every solution that does come up, and that would be simply too big. That is the problem after one has thought about it for a week or two, one that Balfour identified when first discussing Home Rule. sees any number of holes in it. I therefore see absolutely He asked what we do about England, when we have no reason to oppose the Bill when we come to vote on Ireland, Scotland and Wales as nations. Do we chop it. There is nothing objectionable in it, and my hon. England up, or simply have it swamping the whole new Friend the Member for West Worcestershire has been system that is being established? If there is an English very sensible to ensure that that is the case. It is good to Prime Minister and a UK Prime Minister, who does the push the Government, but I would not hold my breath—I President of the United States visit when he comes? He do not think that I can breathe in for the next 100 years sees the English Prime Minister, because the UK Prime —waiting for a solution to this almost intractable problem. Minister would have peripheral powers. He might have However, we have to recognise that, as my hon. Friend a slightly better house, but that would be the extent of says, the English may get deeply fed up with the current it. There is not an easy solution to the English Parliament situation, and when they do, that is when the Union will issue. be most at risk. That is, I think, what most Government Members, and at least one Member on the Opposition There is then the question of English votes on English side of the Chamber—the hon. Member for North issues, but the more one discusses that superficially Antrim (Ian Paisley)—would be extremely keen to avoid. hugely attractive option, the more one discovers that it does not work, because there would be two tiers of 11.48 am MPs, and a Whitehall Government that could not get a major part of its legislation through and would therefore Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): It is always a begin to fail. One would then begin to try to chop up pleasure to follow the clever—and highly witty, at times— the procedures, so that the Government could decide speeches made by the hon. Member for North East which MPs debated which bits of legislation, but that Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). I also congratulate the 633 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 634 hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) Ian Paisley: I appreciate that intervention. I got at on getting the Bill before the House. However, my least three forest trees of letters through my door from flattery stops at that point, I am afraid. people passionately asking me to oppose or support the I have significant difficulties with the Bill, because I plan, depending on where the correspondence came believe that it does the exact opposite of what the hon. from, even though it does not directly affect Northern Lady intends. I believe that she is a good Unionist and Ireland. I exercised some caution. I recognised that that she cares passionately about the United Kingdom although it did not directly affect Northern Ireland, I of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. However, the could attend the debate and listen to the arguments. Bill could be the slippery slope towards the disengagement However, I did not vote; I deliberately made a choice of that Union, and that should be avoided. not to do so, because I believed that it was a matter for Members who were directly affected and whose constituency The hon. Member for North East Somerset talked issues rested on it. The issues were addressed in the about the ridiculousness and pointlessness of certain devolved Assembly. I had the right to vote, but I also legislation, and I believe that if this private Member’s had the choice of whether to exercise it. Bill were to be pursued to its ultimate conclusion, we If Members feel that they are missing out, they should would effectively have what has been described on other look at the devolved Assemblies. What exactly are they occasions as wallpaper. The hon. Lady let the cat out of doing? Last week, our Assembly in Northern Ireland, the bag during her earlier interjection; she said that the of which I am no longer a Member, was dealing with Bill wanted only to do something very simple. During legislation for safety helmets for bicycle riders. A dog my short time at the House, I have found that there is fouling Bill was also introduced. We are not missing a nothing simple about legislation. If we think that a lot. We should not think that there is stuff going on in simple piece of legislation can cure ills, we are misguided those regions that we should really be getting our teeth in our observation. into and ask why Members there are getting it while we Some arrant nonsense has been spoken—and, are not. We are not missing that much, and we should unfortunately, passionately believed by some Members. bear that in mind. The idea is that Members of Parliament from Scotland, I turn to the substantial point that I have in mind. I Wales and Northern Ireland are somehow, to use the am a Unionist, and a proud one, but my Unionism is as parlance of the street, more feckless and lazy than strong only as each component part of the Union. My Members from England. That is wrong, and it is Unionism is deleted if Scottish or Welsh Unionism is condescension of the highest order. deleted or English Unionism is not strong. As a Member If the Member who made that point wishes to check for Northern Ireland, I have a responsibility to encourage Hansard or the website .com for Back- the Union and see that it is strengthened. The Union is Bench interventions, speeches and contributions to the as strong only as each of its component parts. If Northern wealth of the House, he will probably find that there are Ireland or Scotland are made weaker by legislation such Members on the Opposition Benches from those regions as this, Unionism is made weaker. We should tread very whose contributions to the debates and activities of the carefully. House are above average or significantly greater than some Government Back Benchers. We need to be careful Harriett Baldwin: I thank the hon. Gentleman for before pointing the finger at the level of skill or contribution coming along to participate in the debate, because his brought to this Parliament by Members from the regions. perspective is valuable. Will anything in the Bill prevent him from voting on anything? The Bill could allow our unwritten constitution to evolve so that Members might Iain Stewart: I reassure the hon. Gentleman that indeed choose to abstain in the way that he describes. many of us who passionately believe that we have to address the West Lothian question also believe in the equality of the work loads of Members. I do not believe Ian Paisley: The beauty of an unwritten constitution that that is an intractable problem. Although some of is flexibility. As Burke said, we are here to give to the my colleagues might believe that for Members from people who elect us not just of our industry, but of our devolved areas there is a lighter load from postbags or judgment. We are elected to make judgment calls, and parliamentary work, not all of us hold that view. we should have the sense to make those calls without that having to be written down, as the hon. Member for North East Somerset said, in a motherhood and apple Ian Paisley: I do not think that the view is necessary pie way. That is what we seriously need to avoid. commonly held, but we should caution ourselves. When I passionately believe that there is a real danger that if we speak in this place on behalf of the Union and such we create a two-tier Chamber, instead of having a points are made—not in jest, but seriously—that seriously wonderful House of Commons, we will have a House of undermines the standing of the House and its Members. little Englanders. That does not serve this nation or the That is not what we should be about. We should bear interests of any member of it, whether they are in the that in mind. Hebrides or Fermanagh. We need to recognise that. We all pay the same taxes. If we want changes to Chris Bryant: Has the hon. Gentleman had the following taxation, the Magna Carta gives us rights to be represented experience, as I have had in the past couple of weeks? in this House. We should passionately hold on to those. As a Welsh Member of Parliament, I have had a lot of I appeal to my Conservative and Unionist friends to e-mails and correspondence from my constituents on recognise that they should not play party politics with the issue of selling off forests. That does not apply in the constitution of this nation because they fear that the Wales, but the issue is deeply felt by many in my English will become bad Unionists in future. They need constituency. to be careful. They have a responsibility to lead the 635 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 636

[Ian Paisley] For example, there are electoral matters which, although decisions on them may affect only Wales, are reserved to people of England into believing as passionately in the the Secretary of State. In those cases, one could perfectly Union as I do. They can do that only by discouraging happily conclude that it was quite right and proper for the view that we need another Parliament for the English. every Member of this House to vote on such decisions, They and the House need to encourage the strength of even though they affected only Wales. There are also Parliament and the development of powers here. cases where it has been decided that decisions should be The hon. Member for North East Somerset said that devolved—in this case to the Welsh Assembly—and he would like some mechanisms to be developed, but that this House should not legislate on them. Members there are already such mechanisms, such as the British-Irish may well want to make a distinction in those cases, Council. The BIC is supposed to strengthen east-west because they might not think it proper for the whole relationships and bring the Scottish Parliament, the House to vote on the equivalent decisions that affected Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly only England. The argument would be that in Wales, together with members of the Government of this for example, it is Welsh Assembly Members who are United Kingdom, and indeed at times with members of taking those decisions, whereas in England, Welsh MPs the Government of the Republic of Ireland. Those should not be making the same decisions for English mechanisms should be encouraged and worked on. If constituents when they do not play that role in their the House does not play its full role in the BIC, it should own constituencies. It is the asymmetry in these debates get up off its proverbial bottom and do so, and demonstrate that causes some disquiet in England. It is not so much why we, as Unionists, can be stronger not as individual the fact that, in this example, Welsh MPs would be components but as a whole. voting on issues that affected only England; it is the fact I leave those points with the House. I cannot support that English MPs have no say on the same issues in the Bill. Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire 11.57 am ran through a number of potential solutions. She also The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark noted—as did a number of other Members, including Harper): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin), my constituency (Jacob Rees-Mogg)—that one solution to the English neighbour, on introducing this private Member’s Bill. question posited by the previous Government was to She has been in the House of Commons for only a brief introduce some kind of regional devolution. She noted time, but has already secured a place in the ballot for that this solution had been rejected decisively in the private Members’ Bills significantly higher than I ever north-east. Indeed, the neighbouring constituencies that achieved—I never got into the top 20—and significantly the two of us represent highlight that very well. There is higher than many other hon. Members. I am grateful to a lot in common between Gloucestershire, Herefordshire her for introducing a measure that has engaged Members and Worcestershire, yet we are both in different Government on both sides of the House in a thoughtful way. office regions and different regions for the European The West Lothian question is the backdrop to my Parliament. We have neighbouring constituencies, yet hon. Friend’s Bill. Of course, calling the problem the there is quite a significant dividing line between some of West Lothian question makes it sound somewhat obscure the ways in which we represent our constituents. How to most voters. We had a go at rechristening it the we would divide up England would therefore not be a English question, but that never seemed to work, so I straightforward matter, as the previous Government shall use the old nomenclature. My hon. Friend wants found, and as any future Government would also find. to tackle the question, and she and I have discussed it, In setting out the intention behind her Bill, my hon. after which she has looked at her proposals and improved Friend was keen to avoid any danger that the Speaker them. I am not sure that the Bill is exactly as the would be drawn into controversy. It is fair to say that Government would wish, so at the end of my remarks, Mr Speaker is not known for courting controversy of particularly because of the complexities involved, I any kind, and I am sure that he would very much welcome shall test the opinion of the House. However, if the Bill her intention to ensure that he did not inadvertently get goes into Committee, I look forward to working with drawn into any. her constructively to improve it. Hon. Members on both sides of the House raised a My hon. Friend the Member for North West number of issues. It is worth going into the background Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) made an interesting and being clear about what we are talking about when suggestion, which will have been noted, for effectively we talk about legislation that affects different parts of abolishing Members of the Scottish Parliament, Welsh the UK. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) Assembly and Northern Ireland Assembly, and instead picked up something that my hon. Friend said when she having just Members of Parliament with different roles. talked about legislation that affects different parts of That is an idea, but given where we start from, I am not the United Kingdom. He referred to parts of the sure that it is achievable. It may have been a good Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill—I solution in the pre-devolution era, but given that those am sure that Members are waiting with bated breath to devolution settlements were set up and approved by the debate it again next week—that affect Wales. There is a people in referendums, I am not sure that it is possible. distinction between legislation that affects different parts My right hon. and learned, and eternally youthful of the country and legislation under which decisions are Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) reserved to Westminster and are properly not taken by proffered his East Lothian answer to the West Lothian the devolved Assemblies, which are different things. question. He drew attention to the fact—this is a critical This House can legislate for things where the decisions point—that, with the three devolution settlements, a are reserved here, as the hon. Gentleman said. large number of Members of Parliament now represent 637 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 638 parts of the United Kingdom with a devolved Parliament My hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire or Assembly. That is an important issue that this House had talked about the Welsh Grand Committee, and the needs to deal with. He put forward a solution involving, hon. Member for Rhondda made a very telling comment—I effectively, a requirement for a double majority on the am sure that he will correct me if I did not hear him Second and Third Readings of Bills, and it would correctly—when he leapt to his feet and said that certainly be worth while for the commission that the the Committee was otherwise known as the Welsh Government will set up to consider that. grandstanding Committee. I think that that is what he My right hon. and learned Friend also referred to the called it; he is not demurring. He said that if that was concerns raised by Vernon Bogdanor, who, as the hon. the solution, we were not asking the right question. I Member for Rhondda pointed out, is my old politics wanted to ensure that I had heard him correctly, and to tutor. Professor Bogdanor taught politics not only to put on record that he thinks the Welsh Grand Committee me but to the Prime Minister. I am not sure what the is a grandstanding Committee. I am sure that my right Prime Minister would say about this, but I know that hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales will bear the professor and I have both come to the conclusion his opinion in mind when Welsh Labour Members are that neither of us has managed to persuade the other of making bids for issues to be considered by the, as he anything much that we believe. He and I had a debate called it, Welsh grandstanding Committee. I am sure on the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, and, when I was that she will find his intervention extremely helpful. giving evidence to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, I drew attention to the concerns that he had Ian Paisley: I am slightly confused. Did the hon. raised. I subsequently received a communication from Member for Rhondda mean that it was a grand Standing him that broadly confirmed that I have still not managed Committee or a grandstanding Committee? to persuade him of anything. I did not persuade him of much in my essays at university and he did not persuade Mr Harper: In view of what I think the hon. Member me of his views. for Rhondda was saying about the way in which the Committee had behaved from time to time, I think he Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): What was making it clear that he felt it was a Welsh grandstanding grade did you get? Committee. I think that it is helpful to get that point on to the record. Mr Harper: That is an interesting question. This is one of the key differences—not the only one—between Chris Bryant: Well, this is a grand debate, isn’t it? The me and the Prime Minister. He got a first, but I only got truth is that, all too often, the Welsh Grand Committee a 2:1, which probably explains why he is the Prime has been a pretty futile body. It is all the more futile Minister and I am just the Minister for Political and when the Government give it matters to discuss that its Constitutional Reform. members do not want to discuss, and when those decisions My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for are made only by the Government and not by the Kensington made several good points. Despite the attempts Committee’s members. by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) to put my right hon. and learned Friend’s Mr Harper rose— name forward to serve on the commission that we will set up, I noted carefully that he declined the opportunity, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I saying that he would be happy to give evidence to it. have let this run a little bit, but I think that we should now return to the Bill. This is not a debate about the Chris Bryant: I hope that I am not breaking a private Welsh Grand; it is a debate about the hon. Lady’s Bill, confidence when I say that Vernon Bogdanor told me and I would like the Minister to return to that subject. that he thought that the Minister, when he was his student, was very clever and bright and clearly destined Mr Harper: I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. I for greater things, but that it was a shame that he had detected that the House probably felt that that part of fallen among thieves of late. the debate had run its course. My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes Mr Harper: I have just looked at the expression on South (Iain Stewart) made a powerful speech in favour you face, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I think that I am of the Union, but he cautioned about the reason why going to be generous and describe the hon. Gentleman’s we should answer the West Lothian question. He noted use of the word “thieves” as an attempt at humour. I do that in last year’s general election, the Conservative not think that it was a very successful attempt, but this party had a majority of seats in England and that if our is perhaps the best way to get him out of the difficulty right hon. Friend the Prime Minister had not led in that he might otherwise have got himself into. such a bold fashion to put together this coalition, an alternative might well have caused a constitutional crisis. Mr Chope: My right hon. and learned Friend the That suggests how important it is for the Government Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) is champing to deal with this issue now. It is better to deal with the at the bit to give evidence to the commission. Will the question and provide a possible solution, however complex Minister tell us when it is going to be set up, so that my that be, in an atmosphere of relative calm rather than to right hon. and learned Friend can do that? I hope that it solve it hurriedly in an atmosphere of crisis. I hope that can be within weeks, rather than months. all those of a Unionist inclination—probably every Member in the House today—will agree that it is better Mr Harper: If my hon. Friend can wait just a little to look at these matters sensibly and implement solutions longer, I will come to that important point. calmly rather than wait for the crisis to happen, when 639 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 640

[Mr Harper] My hon. Friend has sensibly made the Bill apply only to draft legislation, to preserve the independence of significant pressure might come from English voters to Parliament from the courts, and to protect its exclusive solve the problem, making it more difficult to resolve it cognisance. Had she attempted to set down in legislation calmly and sensibly. how actual Bills were presented to the House, that My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes might have opened up the opportunity for courts to South referred to the opportunity cost of doing nothing, involve themselves in our legislative procedures. She has which might ultimately put the Union at risk. He ran avoided that danger, but the flipside is that her Bill will through a number of what he called “perfect”—perhaps affect only draft legislation and, therefore, it will not better described as “tidy”—solutions, but noted that affect every Bill brought to the House. My hon. Friend there were good reasons to believe that they would not the Member for North East Somerset highlighted an work. He suggested—I think it was the same conclusion alternative, non-legislative solution, which is to deal as that put forward by my right hon. and learned Friend with such matters in the Standing Orders of the House. the Member for Kensington—that there is no single He also noted the difficulties in that approach, such as tidy solution, but that a number of imperfect solutions not being able to entrench the provision. could deal with the nub of the issue. I believe that a By mirroring the provisions in section 19 of the number of my hon. Friends reached the same conclusion. Human Rights Act, which requires Ministers to make a My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset statement of compatibility with the convention, the (Jacob Rees-Mogg) also rightly drew attention to the requirement under clause 3 of the Bill is carefully fact that there is no simple solution. He ran through a drafted so as not to fall foul of the exclusive cognisance number of solutions and noted some concerns about principle. The duty is on Ministers, rather than being a them, including about the solution of my right hon. and legislative requirement. The flaw is that the Bill imposes learned Friend the Member for Kensington, which my requirements on Government that are already in place hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset and with which the Government should comply. As has believed might face some difficult procedural problems. been noted, the Cabinet Office’s “Guide to Making His key point was that people must think that any Legislation” already provides that the territorial extent proposed solution is fair—fair to all parts of the United and application of legislation should be set out in a Kingdom. He also flagged up the potential risk of an statement at the beginning of the explanatory notes, in election result in which a majority party in England was whatever form of words is appropriate to the Bill. In not the same as the Government at Westminster. He addition, it provides that where a Bill makes different correctly put his finger on the fact that that would provision for the different nations of the United Kingdom, indeed constitute a risk to the Union. He argued in that should be outlined in the explanatory notes, setting favour of a classic British fudge, suggesting that a party out the territorial extent of each part of the Bill separately that did not have a majority in England but was in if necessary. government at Westminster would need a self-denying ordinance. Perhaps some solutions could be put in place Harriett Baldwin: I thank the Minister for his perceptive along those lines. All the issues show how complicated comments about what I have tried to avoid in drafting the problem is. the Bill. I am glad that he accepts that the principles of The Bill proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for the Bill are sound, even if its wording might be modified West Worcestershire puts forward a number of solutions. by the Government in Committee, which I would welcome. There are two new duties on any Minister publishing The Bill moves civil service guidance on to a statutory legislation in draft. Clause 1 deals with the first duty, footing, thus strengthening the whole process. which is to “ensure that the legal and financial effect of that legislation on Mr Harper: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that each part of the United Kingdom is separately and clearly identified.” clarification. It comes back to the comments of my The second duty, in clause 3, is to “make a statement” hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset that that the Bill is the Bill does nothing harmful, but nor does it take us “compatible with the principles of legislative territorial clarity, much further forward. I start from the position, as do or” the Government, that we should not legislate for if the Bill is not compatible with them, to make a unnecessary matters that do not add anything. similar statement where “the government nonetheless wishes to proceed.” Chris Bryant: A clear example is to be found in the This is my hon. Friend’s attempt, I think, to set out explanatory notes to the next Bill that we will consider. clearly in the Bill that the Government must make those In relation to the territorial extent and application, the judgments so that the Chair would not be drawn into notes state: controversy. The principles of legislative clarity are set “The Bill extends to (that is, forms part of the law of) England out in clause 4, which states that and Wales. The terms of clause 1, however, mean that it will only “every citizen of the United Kingdom has the right to see how take effect within England.” proposed changes to the law will affect them” Often, there is not the clarity that an ordinary person and that hon. Members of this House might want and seek, even when we put something on “have the right to see how proposed changes to the law will affect the face of a Bill. their constituents.” I believe those are sensible principles, but I hope to Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point persuade the House and my hon. Friend that her Bill is about the fact that, even when something is required, it not necessarily the best way of advancing those objectives. is not always executed brilliantly. Even if the requirements 641 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 642 in the Cabinet Office guidance on drafting legislation forthcoming about the commitment in the coalition were put into statute, that would not necessarily mean agreement to establishing a commission. As he and that they would be better executed than they are currently. other Members have observed, this issue is extremely In practice, the financial aspects of the Bill would complicated, so why are we now delaying even the also have little consequence, because the present appointment of the people who will consider it? We have arrangements already require all new UK-wide legislation already delayed for far too long. The original commitment to specify the financial impact and to be drafted within was that the commission would be established before a Department’s existing funding plans. Therefore, no the end of 2010, but the Minister now expects us to new Barnett financial consequentials would arise, as a accept as a big deal the information that he will make matter of course. Bills that deal with reserved matters an announcement before the end of this year. have no Barnett consequentials attached and do not One great virtue of the Bill is that if it is given a have significant impact on different Administrations. Committee stage, members of the Committee will be In relation to how legislation is drafted, the Bill does able to maintain pressure on the Government to fulfil not take us much further forward. Effectively, it puts their commitment to do something. The Minister tells into statutory form what the Government currently us that the cost of doing nothing about it is putting the intend and do, thus losing a little flexibility. However, Union at risk, which is pretty serious stuff, but at the my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset moment the Government are doing nothing about it. put his finger on it when he observed that the West I would not expect my hon. Friend the Minister to Lothian question was complicated. While the Bill may comment on what I am about to say. Indeed, the reason lead us to a potential solution, it may not be the one I am able to speak after him is that he will not be able to that the commission comes up with. comment on it. I think that the Deputy Prime Minister, Finally, let me do what I was invited to do by my hon. who is in charge of my hon. Friend’s Department and is Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope), and the person who can give the yea or nay to whether the remind the House that the Government have made a commission is to be set up and when, has not got his commitment to set up a commission to examine the heart in it. I hope that my hon. Friend will tell the West Lothian question. Although the coalition parties Deputy Prime Minister that in the extra time that he approach the issue from different angles, they have will have next week, now that he has cancelled his trip to made a common commitment to resolve the question. South America, he should give serious consideration to In the Conservative party manifesto, we promised to getting on with working out who will be on the commission “introduce new rules so that legislation referring specifically to and what will be its scope and remit. Surely the commission England, or to England and Wales, cannot be enacted without the should be set up now, so that it can get to work before consent of MPs representing constituencies of those countries.” all the other stuff that is coming along is before the The Liberal Democrats’ manifesto said that they would House. The last written answer on the issue says: “Address the status of England within a federal Britain, through “Careful consideration is ongoing as to the timing, composition, the Constitutional Convention set up to draft a written constitution scope and remit of the Commission to consider the… question.” for the UK as a whole.” Although the coalition parties came up with very different Some of us were not born yesterday. It is obvious that solutions to the West Lothian question, both parties this is a stalling exercise by the Government. There was consider it important to attempt to answer it, and an unholy compromise in the coalition agreement but neither party believes that it is possible to answer it by the Deputy Prime Minister is not even delivering on ceasing to ask it. We consider it a serious question that that compromise. He may realise that it could have will be best tackled when we can tackle it in a calm and implications for his party. There is no point, if the reasonable manner rather than waiting for a crisis. Liberal Democrats and Conservatives have different views on the matter, trying to paper over the cracks. I can confirm that we will set up the commission this Why do we not get on and appoint the commission? year, as, indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for West Perhaps the coalition cannot even agree who could be Worcestershire established through her perceptive on it, or what its scope and remit would be. questioning. We had hoped to make announcements to the House at an earlier stage, but I look forward to The written answer goes on to say that the commission making them in the not-too-distant future, and the “will need to take account of our proposals to reform the House commission will then be able to consider the ideas that of Lords”. have been advanced today. Hon. Members have effectively Well, what has happened to those? We were told that a made bids to participate, either as members of the draft Bill would be published before Christmas. We have commission or in giving evidence to it. I hope that it will not seen that yet. We might be waiting another year or arrive at solutions that we can subsequently debate. so before those proposals emerge. I urge my hon. Friend the Member for West The written answer goes on to say that the commission Worcestershire to withdraw her Bill, to participate in will need to take account of the commission in whatever way proves appropriate, “the changes being made to the way this House does business”. and to continue to take part in this important debate. There will be further changes to the way the House does The Government are keen to answer the question and business when the Backbench Business Committee is deal with this important matter, but I am not sure that able to look at both Government legislation and Back- my hon. Friend’s Bill provides the right way of going about Bench business, and we are told that that will not start it, and I think it right to test the opinion of the House. until the third year of this Parliament—another recipe 12.22 pm for delay. Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I had The written answer says that the commission will not intended to speak in the debate, but I must say that I have to consider am disappointed that the Minister was not more “amendments to the devolution regimes”. 643 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 644

[Mr Christopher Chope] will serve on it. I do not think my hon. Friend and I are very far apart, as I believe the commission must be We know that a referendum will be held shortly in given the maximum amount of time to go into the Wales, but why do we need to wait for the outcome of details of this topic. However, if we are going to get this that before we set up the body that will look into these sorted out before the end of this fixed-term Parliament, complex issues? There is then a reference to the fact that why have we not got on with it already? What is the there is reason for the delay? It seems to me that the justifications “the Scotland Bill presently before the House”. for delay put forward thus far are specious in the The written answer concludes; it is similar to what my extreme, and we have learned from experience that if a hon. Friend the Minister has said today: Government have not got a proper explanation for delay, the reason is usually that they intended to delay “We will make an announcement later this year.”—[Official matters, as is the case now. Report, 31 January 2011; Vol. 522, c. 549W.] It does not even say that the commission will be set up Ian Paisley: Does the hon. Gentleman not accept, later this year. however, that he cannot have both sides of the argument? I commend my hon. Friend the Member for West He cannot claim that this is a very complex and complicated Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) for having a stab at issue to resolve, but also say, “But here’s an easy way to what is an extremely complex issue. People perhaps get it sorted out.” Does he not recognise that there are more learned in the law than she is, such as my right two ways to skin this rat, as it were, and that the hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington commission offered today is perhaps one of those ways? (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), had a go at the issue. More than 100 of us came to support him when his Bill had its Mr Chope: I think the hon. Gentleman is on the same Second Reading debate to ensure that it could get into side as I am on that, because I am saying not that this is Committee. It was then kicked into the long grass. That an easy issue to sort out, but that the coalition Government shows for how long the issue has been discussed. agreed to set up a commission to consider it, yet until the commission is set up it cannot start considering it. I I remain suspicious about the motives of the Deputy cannot understand why the commission has not yet Prime Minister. I think that he is stalling seriously on been set up and why my hon. Friend the Minister the issue. If the Bill goes into Committee it will give all cannot give a commitment that it will be set up sooner hon. Members the opportunity to keep the pressure on rather than later. Instead, he just talks vaguely about the Government to meet what was a pretty meaningless something happening towards the end of this year. That commitment in the coalition agreement anyway. At will be one and a half years into this Parliament, and it least it would be something. would mean that if the commission were to come up with legislative proposals, the chances of being able to Mr Harper: I know that my hon. Friend is not perhaps get them through in this Parliament would be significantly the most enthusiastic supporter of the coalition Government reduced unless the commission concertinaed its work but I think that he sees mischief where there is none. into a very short space of time. The clear message from the thoughtful speeches of all Members today is that the issue is complicated. If the That is what leads me to conclude—I think any rational Government are to deal with it calmly and sensibly and observer would conclude this—that the Government in a manner that does not put the Union at risk, we have not got their heart in this. They are hopelessly split must proceed thoughtfully and properly. However, I between the Liberal Democrat agenda and the Conservative have given a clear commitment that we need to deal party agenda, which was clearly set out in our manifesto. with the matter and answer the question. Therefore, I We compromised on that in the coalition agreement, urge him to be a bit more generous in spirit. and we have given the tools whereby that compromise might be taken forward, namely the setting up of the Mr Chope: I am generous by nature but I would be commission, to the leader of the Liberal Democrat even more generous if my hon. Friend had explained party. I do not think he has got his heart in trying to why it has turned out to be impossible for the Government achieve any progress on this matter, however. I sympathise to appoint the commission before Christmas, as they enormously with the Minister, but I hope that by getting originally intended. the Bill into Committee we will be able to maintain the pressure. That is why I support the Bill. Jacob Rees-Mogg: May I come to the support of the Minister, and on a constitutional issue, which may 12.33 pm surprise him? Our consideration of the earlier legislation Harriett Baldwin: I thank all Members on both sides on the alternative vote, parliamentary boundaries and of the House for their excellent contributions today. fixed-term Parliaments was desperately rushed, and The debate has been extremely interesting, and we have therefore its measures were not necessarily very well heard widespread support for the Bill’s intentions. We thought through, which is a great shame. In contrast, have also heard a range of objections, however, such as the progress we are making towards considering the from the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), West Lothian question in a deliberative and thorough but I think his fears are unjustified; we are on his side way is in the best traditions of high Toryism. here. By not talking about this, we would run into as many difficulties as we might through some of the Mr Chope: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I think solutions he fears. I urge him to support the Bill on that these deliberations should be conducted by the Second Reading, as I think that if it progresses that will commission itself, however, rather than by the Government, serve to get some of the issues out in the open, and not and I do not want the Government to be agonising over bury them, which I think would be worse for his case in whether there should be a commission and, if so, who the long term. 645 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill11 FEBRUARY 2011 Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill 646

The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Rhondda Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time. (Chris Bryant), put up a series of straw men—or ghouls and ghosties—that do not apply to the Bill. I therefore The House divided: Ayes 19, Noes 17. feel sure that he will support the Bill—[Interruption.] I Division No. 200] [12.36 pm may have misread his intentions, in which case I ask him to forgive me. AYES My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset Afriyie, Adam Hollobone, Mr Philip (Jacob Rees-Mogg) made some supportive comments, Baldwin, Harriett Latham, Pauline but he also rightly raised concerns about some of the Bottomley, Sir Peter Leadsom, Andrea subsequent issues that this House might still have to Bridgen, Andrew Mills, Nigel grapple with. I am not, by any means, pretending that Bruce, Fiona Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm this Bill solves all those issues, but his description of it Byles, Dan Stewart, Iain as “pointless” rankles. The very fact that we have had Chope, Mr Christopher Vickers, Martin this excellent debate shows that it is not pointless. It Crouch, Tracey Wheeler, Heather would provide much greater clarity and put that on a Davis, rh Mr David Tellers for the Ayes: statutory footing, and would prevent the Speaker from Hart, Simon Bob Stewart and possibly being put in a difficult position. Hoey, Kate Damian Hinds

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I apologise if I implied that I NOES thought the Bill was pointless. I was concerned that if it Beith, rh Sir Alan McKinnell, Catherine did not lead to anything else, it would be pointless, and Blackman-Woods, Roberta Paisley, Ian therefore I thought it needed to go on to the subsequent Bryant, Chris Pound, Stephen events. Campbell, Mr Alan Rees-Mogg, Jacob Clarke, rh Mr Tom Spellar, rh Mr John Harriett Baldwin: I thank my hon. Friend very much Dobbin, Jim Watson, Mr Tom for that clarification. In an elegant speech, the Minister Dromey, Jack Wright, Mr Iain made similar points, saying that the Bill was good as far Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Tellers for the Noes: as it goes but that we need to go much further. I would Johnson, Diana and have been much more sympathetic to his desire for me Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Mr Shailesh Vara to withdraw the Bill today if he could have made some announcements or put some measures on the table that Question accordingly agreed to. would give me confidence that his urgency on the issue was similar to that expressed by colleagues on our Bill read a Second time; to stand committed to a Public Benches. Having considered his kind invitation for me Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63). to withdraw the Bill, I have decided that I do not wish to do so and I ask that the Question be put. 647 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 648 Separation Zones) Bill Planning (Opencast Mining Separation The Bill would offer protection to communities not Zones) Bill only in North West Leicestershire but in dozens of constituencies in former coalfields throughout the country, Second Reading hopefully including in Northern Ireland. A study carried out by the Minorca open-cast protest group showed 12.48 pm that 29 open-cast sites in England are being worked now, have received planning permission, or are in the Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I planning pipeline. It also found that development could beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. take place in the near future on a further 34 sites May I begin by saying what a privilege it is to be able scattered across the counties of Derbyshire, Yorkshire, to introduce a Bill on a matter that I campaigned on Durham, Northumberland, Cumbria, Greater Manchester, before and after the last general election? This issue is Shropshire, Staffordshire, Warwickshire, very close to the heart of a large number of my constituents and, of course, my own county of Leicestershire. Figures in North West Leicestershire, both now and historically. from the Coal Authority that were produced in March Indeed, I am following in a rich tradition of Members 2010 show that whereas buffer zone-protected Scotland of Parliament for North West Leicestershire, all of and Wales had known reserves of open-cast mined coal whom have raised the issue of opencast mining in the of 75 million tonnes and 147 million tonnes respectively, House at one time or another as an item that has unprotected England has 516 million tonnes of reserves, blighted my constituency and the lives of my constituents much of which lies within 500 metres of residential for decades. settlements. It would be best to start by setting out the rationale Since the Bill was announced, I have received messages behind the Bill. Back in February 2010, along with of support from groups and individuals throughout the other parliamentary candidates, I was asked to speak country whose lives have been affected by the blight of and debate at a hustings organised by the Minorca open-cast mining. An application has been made for an opencast protest group, which I will take this opportunity open-cast mine in the north-east, and a member of the to thank and pay tribute to for all its hard work in public who lives near the proposed site contacted me campaigning against a proposed opencast mine in about the my constituency, near the village of Measham. While “black cloud of a planning application to mine a site which is researching the subject for the hustings, the question of alarmingly close to some of the houses in our local area. Some a buffer zone arose. Such a zone is a legally enforced gap houses will be within 58 metres of the site, some 140 metres, while between an open-cast mine and a residential settlement. the majority affected would be within 300 metres as proposed by I found that, in the 1990s, East Ayrshire council in the scoping report.” Scotland became the first UK local authority formally The Minorca site in my constituency is only 100 metres to introduce a 500-metre buffer zone between open-cast away from residential settlements. It has the potential to and surface mining sites, and areas of settlement. After have a devastating effect on the quality of my constituents’ much lobbying and protest, that eventually led to the lives, and I am sure that many hon. Members in the incorporation in present Scottish planning policy, which Chamber will have heard appeals for help from communities was published in February 2010, of guidance on a facing the prospect of open-cast mining happening 500-metre buffer zone. effectively in their backyards. I also discovered that the most consistent public The stark reality of the situation was brought home request about open-cast mining in the past two years to me when I read the following account of the impact has been for the minerals technical advice document to of open-cast mining: include a 500-metre buffer zone. Interestingly, the Welsh Assembly Government have put in place a policy of “They have just started an open cast mine in the field behind my mother’s house in Shropshire. In weeks we expect her view of introducing 500-metre buffer zones between areas of fields and The Wrekin to be replaced by a 9 metre high mound of settlement and open-cast mines. However, in September earth 6 metres from her property. She is 84 years old and until the 2009, when my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin Shropshire Star did an article on her, the opencast company had (Mark Pritchard) questioned the previous Government not even bothered to visit her or contact her. about the introduction of such zones in England, he She has limited mobility and is therefore housebound. With an was told: open cast mine and then a land fill site she will no longer be able “There is no current intention to review existing planning to open her windows or sit in her garden. What a way to spend the policy on opencast mining and introduce buffer zones in England.”— final years of your life. She would now like to move but this is now [Official Report, 1 September 2009; Vol. 496, c. 1843W.] impossible. Nobody would buy it and the opencast company is not interested even though they own the property on either side of Poor old England suffers again. her.” Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I am grateful to The Bill would also have a positive impact on planning the hon. Gentleman for giving way to one of us hard- policy. I have received support for it from a planner, working Ulstermen. I wholeheartedly support the Bill. who commented: We face a similar situation even in my constituency, “’I became aware of your private members bill that would because there is a proposal for a lignite, open-cast, filthy introduce a 500m buffer zone between open cast mining and mine in Ballymoney that would tear up swathes of residents, when giving planning advice on the redevelopment of redundant buildings in the grounds of a grade II listed property Ulster and North Antrim right to the causeway coast which is currently negatively impacted upon by the potential for and the middle of a tourist zone. Such a Bill would help open cast mining within the immediate vicinity. to prevent that, so I give him my support. Despite my advice and that of the council being that it would be highly unlikely that consent would granted for open cast Andrew Bridgen: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s mining within the grounds of a grade II* listed property, the lack support. of certainty given by the existing policy framework is causing the 649 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 650 Separation Zones) Bill Separation Zones) Bill would be developer considerable concern and jeopardising the with a buffer zone it would be easier for local people to investment and job creation that would result from the sale and accept some of those developments because they would redevelopment of the buildings”. know that they were protected? So it is not only open-cast mining but the mere threat of it that hinders the economic development of coalfield areas. That case clearly illustrates the need for the Andrew Bridgen: I thank my hon. Friend for his certainty that a defined buffer zone would provide—a comment, which is absolutely right. I shall bring it out need also illustrated by a case in Wales. As the environmental further in my arguments. correspondent for wrote on his blog, It has been argued that the open-cast industry has before the buffer zone relied on what could be described as “hired gun” expert “was introduced in Wales, I saw how the lives of people in witnesses, to gain permission that mineral planning Merthyr Tydfil were being ruined by the mine on their doorsteps. The green hillside they had looked out on, where they walked authorities have neither the expertise nor the resources— their dogs and where their children played, is being turned into a money, mostly—to contradict. Those hired guns regurgitate hole—the Ffos-y-Fran pit—200 metres deep and three kilometres the same rhetoric at every application and inquiry, wide. The edge of the pit is just 36 metres from the nearest homes. following Government guidance that actually tells them Their peace is shattered by the sound of blasting and digging and what to say. The fact that mineral policy will not be the daily journeys of hundreds of monster trucks; their homes are covered by the Localism Bill makes a buffer zone even harder to sell; their view has been ruptured. Why should anyone more essential. have to put up with this?” Well, the Governments of Wales and Scotland decided Since 2005, owing to extreme industry lobbying and that no one should have to put up with it, and imposed the argument based on need—industry need, not national a 500-metre buffer zone, but in England, despite vocal need—being introduced as part of the planning guidance, campaigns, there is still no minimum distance between “independent” planning inspectors have chosen to take open-cast coal mines and people’s homes—a clear case the word of these “experts”. That subverts the empirical of discrimination. evidence of communities who have seen more open-casting than the inspector, expert witnesses and most members There is an argument that the anomaly of England of the contemporary open-cast industry. being deprived of a buffer zone of the kind that Scotland and Wales enjoy is a breach of English people’s human Each application that is passed weakens the position rights. That was an argument put forward by a group of of local residents through the precedent set in planning residents who fought hard to try to prevent the opening case law, despite the fact that the supposed primary of the Huntington lane site in Telford. They argued that guidance, MPG3 (1999), which states that local authorities when the UK signed the Human Rights Act 1998, it and local people are in the best position to assess the signed as the United Kingdom in its entirety, not as acceptability of an application, remains on the books. three separate entities, and that was enshrined in law in It seldom works. Under the last Government, the last 2000. However, the planning application was approved 14 appeals on open-cast sites were all passed in the face under the previous Government by the then Secretary of vocal local opposition. That gives the Secretary of of State for Communities and Local Government after State, who should be the last line of defence for local a public inquiry. people, the perfect excuse to say, “I have to go with the A detailed health impact assessment was demanded experts.” by Telford’s local public health director, but was The position has become so bad that most local subsequently disregarded by the inspector and the previous authorities simply wave through applications in England, Government, despite the fact that that seminal document whereas 10 years ago they would have been fought was believed to be the only such assessment undertaken tooth and nail after being judged utterly unacceptable before the opening of an open-cast mine. The Secretary by local residents. of State’s closing comments in the decision paper sent from the Planning Inspectorate were: “The Secretary of State has had regard to The Friends of the Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): What Ercall’s view that a breach of Article 14 of the European Convention local authorities often do, certainly in Northumberland, on Human Rights arises because of differences between the is prefer to set conditions, rather than refuse, because planning guidance which applies in England compared to that then they have more control of the situation. But if a which applies in Scotland and that which applies in Wales (IR417 buffer zone was there anyway, it would give them rather and IR570). The Secretary of State has considered this matter but he takes the view that differences in policy do not, in themselves, more leeway. A degree of separation is sometimes one amount to discrimination. He is satisfied that, having assessed the of the conditions that they try to set while they still have appeal scheme against relevant national and local policies, he has some control of the situation because they are granting given proper consideration to all relevant issues.” permission. Of course, one reason why that has become a major issue is that in the past 10 years a large majority of open-cast applications in England have been approved Andrew Bridgen: I thank my right hon. Friend for his by the Secretary of State, in spite of opposition from contribution. parish, district and county councils. Hon. Members will There is an argument that open-cast mines generate note that the Localism Bill specifically excludes mineral local employment, but in many cases the effect has policy; there will be no protection for local communities proved to be virtually zero for the affected communities. through the Localism Bill. The employment is low and generally outsourced, and contributions to the affected local economies are minuscule. Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): My hon. The social and environmental costs are borne by local Friend is making a powerful case. Does he agree that residents, with no real benefit in return. 651 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 652 Separation Zones) Bill Separation Zones) Bill [Andrew Bridgen] we have already heard much today, help the country to take a significant step to meeting its environmental The Campaign to Protect Rural England agrees. It objectives and, most importantly, protect communities states that against the intrusive, defacing vandalism of our countryside. “communities in England should have the same protection from Do the residents of England not deserve the same the noise, dust and loss of landscape which can severely erode protections as people in Scotland and Wales? quality of life.” My earlier point about the uncertainty in planning policy explains that. The certainty that a buffer zone 1.7 pm would bring would be an improvement on the current Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): I situation for rural England and its residents. The Campaign congratulate the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire to Protect Rural England also notes that open-cast coal (Andrew Bridgen) on introducing the Bill. The Bill is mining has undergone a recent resurgence in the UK, extremely relevant and timely for my constituents, and I mainly due to the increase in global coal and gas prices. support it. I also thank him for mentioning Durham in However, it also states: his speech. “Not only do opencast mines deface some of our finest landscapes and wreck tranquillity, they can have a devastating effect on The Bill is relevant for my constituents because they nearby communities and wildlife, while hindering efforts to reduce are currently facing a significant plan to develop two CO2 emissions.” open-cast sites right on the northern boundary of my I will now move on to that last issue, for there is an constituency. A number of the residents’ concerns would environmental case for the buffer zone. be addressed by implementing the 500 metre buffer zone outlined in the Bill, which would give residents It has been calculated that each tonne of coal used much greater protection. for power generation produces more than 2,000 kg of carbon dioxide. The Confederation of United Kingdom It must be the right time for the House to consider Coal Producers, an industry group, has been reported updating “Minerals Planning Guidance 3: Coal Mining as stating that and Colliery Spoil Disposal”, which was implemented “the measure could lead to the loss or sterilisation of between in 1999. That contains a number of sensible measures, 250 million and 500 million tonnes of reserves.” but as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, a lot of planning Based on the figures provided by the Coal Authority, case law since then does not seem to pay enough attention that is equal to between 48% and 97% of known surface- to the views of local communities. It must now be time mine coal reserves in England, which, as previously to look at that and consider strengthening the legislation. stated, amount to around 516 million tonnes. If each The hon. Gentleman also made the excellent point tonne of coal burned for power generation produces that it is important to align our legislation with that in 2,215 kg of carbon dioxide, preventing 250 million tonnes Scotland and Wales. Certainly residents in my constituency of coal from being burned would prevent them from are looking to legislation in Scotland and asking serious becoming 550 million metric tonnes of carbon dioxide. questions about why they are not offered the same In that way, by passing the Bill, Parliament can make a protection as people living less than 100 miles away. major contribution to reducing climate change risks. That is another matter that the House needs to look at To put the figures into a meaningful perspective, the seriously. average amount of coal consumed by power-generating It might be worth spending a couple of minutes companies in the UK between 2005 and 2009 was considering why the proposed change is so essential approximately 50 million tonnes per annum, which is for local communities, particularly those faced with equal to emitting an average of 111 million metric planning applications or proposals about which they tonnes of carbon dioxide. By passing the Bill, Parliament have major concerns. I want to take a current example would permanently put the equivalent of five years’ from my constituency, in the village of Pittingdon. In worth of CO2 production from UK power generation doing so, I want to pay tribute to the local parish beyond reach and further stimulate the need to find council, including Councillor Bill Kellet, and the local alternative sources of energy. residents, who have orchestrated an excellent campaign In view of that, I have also received backing for my to demonstrate their concerns. One of the proposed Bill from Leicester Friends of the Earth, which stated: sites abuts housing along one long boundary, just a few “Open-cast mining is extraordinarily destructive environmentally metres from a range of properties. Any workings, should and can blight the lives of those living in nearby communities. We they subsequently be approved, would inflict environmental are delighted that Mr Bridgen has listened to the concerns of his pollution on residents in a number of forms. There constituents and chosen to introduce legislation on this issue.” would be dust, first from the extraction and removal What is the need for those open-cast sites? England process, and later from the infill operations. Obviously currently has 14 coal-fired power stations, five of which there would also be noise pollution; that would be will close by 2015. Only two new coal-fired stations are inevitable given the digging that would be required. planned. By 2015 we will need 3.4 million tonnes less Even though measures could be taken to reduce the coal for English power stations, which is 1.6 times the noise, it would not be possible, because of the close amount of all English open-cast coal mined in 2009. It proximity of the workings to the houses, to minimise it could be argued that we are tearing up the countryside to an acceptable level for residents. There would also be needlessly and using our emergency reserves when there dirt from the wheels of vehicles transporting materials, is no emergency—the number of coal-fired power stations and from the materials themselves that are associated is falling. with open-cast operations. There are many reasons why the Bill should receive a In addition to the effect on residents, the proposed Second Reading. It would clarify planning, bring English site is in close proximity to an ancient church. All the law into line with Scottish and Welsh law, about which people associated with it are very concerned about any 653 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 654 Separation Zones) Bill Separation Zones) Bill impact on that church, and also about any impact on a Mr Deputy Speaker, please accept my apologies for site of special scientific interest. There could also be being unable to stay until the end of the debate. I have effects on the water table, from which water is drawn for been invited to meet the Kashmiri women of Pakistan local residents, and that is without taking into account this afternoon, which will be slightly different from the wider issues of the additional traffic and air pollution discussing open-cast mining. One takes one’s opportunities that could come from such workings. There is therefore where they arise. The Bill is short, discreet and reasonable— a whole range of serious issues for local residents. Although those issues would not be dismissed entirely Andrew Bridgen: Just like me! by a 500 metre buffer zone, they would certainly be ameliorated to a large extent. That is what is so helpful Heather Wheeler: I could not possibly put that in about the Bill. Hansard. I will leave that to my hon. Friend. I want to raise some other points about any possible I hope that my hon. Friends on the Front Bench will infill. I do not want to make this afternoon’s debate a take the Bill on board. Having sat through this morning’s discussion about the value of open-cast mining per se. debate on the West Lothian question, I believe that the It is probably possible for some open-cast mining sites time has come for fairness, and I hope that this reforming to be developed throughout the country, provided that Government will bring fairness into the future. they are chosen sensitively, and provided that whatever restoration is carried out afterwards is an improvement 1.17 pm on what currently exists. Indeed, that is another matter that should be considered, because many footpaths and Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): I, too, congratulate walks for local residents on the proposed site in Pittingdon my hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire would be disrupted by open-cast mining works, but not (Andrew Bridgen) on bringing forward his Bill. He necessarily restored in any subsequent works, which is made a very persuasive case for the need for these worth bearing in mind. measures in his own constituency and many others around the country, and that case is no less strong in my I am extremely happy to be able to support the Bill. constituency, which is in the heart of the old Derbyshire In general, planning processes should take more notice coalfields and has a long history of deep and surface of local residents’ feelings, pay more attention to what mining. We currently have one operating surface mine, they say and act on their concerns. I very much hope which was approved on appeal, the application having that our concerns will be listened to this afternoon, and been turned down by the county council about six years that the House will give its full backing to the Bill with ago. An application has been made to extend the site some alacrity, so that those of us who are waiting for further, and a second application has been made in the debate on the Apprenticeships and Skills (Public relation to a site only a couple of miles away from the Procurement Contracts) Bill will get the chance to existing one. support that one as well. It is important to note that the Bill does not seek to 1.15 pm ban open-cast mining across England, although many people would like that to happen. Instead, it seeks to Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I protect people from some of the worst aspects of the congratulate my hon. Friend and neighbour, the Member blight that could arise if they were unlucky enough to for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) on have an application for an open-cast mine near to where bringing his important private Member’s Bill to the they live. The planning system always seeks to strike a House. It is also a delight to follow the hon. Member for balance between allowing what some people regard as City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods). an essential activity and protecting the needs of those My constituency abuts that of my hon. Friend the who live nearest to that activity and have to put up with Member for North West Leicestershire. The open-cast it. Most hon. Members would probably agree that we mining that has been going on in South Derbyshire for have not yet struck that balance in English planning law the past 20 years has finally come to an end, and I can and guidance on open-cast mining, but we believe that talk from great experience about the atrocious blight our colleagues in Scotland and Wales have addressed that such mining causes for residents. My hon. Friend the problem by introducing a 500 metre buffer zone. We has planning applications coming along, and it is important have spent most of today debating the need for fairness that the Bill should be successful so that some clarity for England in relation to Scotland and Wales, and can be brought to the process and the Government can perhaps this Bill represents an extension of that principle. help with statutory instruments or planning guidance If that is right planning policy in Scotland and Wales, I notes, whichever view they take after this debate. fail to understand why it is not the right planning policy It is interesting that, in the past, open-cast mining has for England as well. been described as a beneficial economic asset to our Before I turn to deal with the detail of the Bill, it is country. That might be true, but I do not think that worth going over some of the reasons why we need this anyone living in the same neighbourhood as such a measure. The hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta mine would agree with that assessment. The Bill is Blackman-Woods) mentioned that the previous incredibly reasonable, because it talks about exceptional Government tried to tighten up the planning guidelines circumstances. I can attest to the fact that, when the in the late 1990s. That had some success for a few years, properties across the road from us were being developed, but as my hon. Friend the Member for North West the coal was dug out to ensure that those properties Leicestershire alluded to, as time moved on there were were safe when they were built. Of course everyone more and more successful appeals, including one in my accepted that that needed to be done. There are now constituency, which showed that the current guidance seven excellent properties that we would not have had if was not strong enough to achieve what we wanted it to the reasonableness test had not been taken into account. achieve. We thus need to strengthen it. 655 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 656 Separation Zones) Bill Separation Zones) Bill [Nigel Mills] of Denby village face the same problem within 50, 60, 70 or 100 metres of their houses. They, too, would be Having the buffer zone will improve the position in protected by the proposed measures. two main respects—the impact of noise and the impact The Bill is not a panacea; it will not improve every of dust from the sites on people who live nearby. There problem that residents face, but it will give them the are planning annexes on both noise and dust, published assurance that such developments cannot encroach within by the previous Government, which are worth looking 500 metres of their homes. It will help to take out some at. The noise annexe to minerals policy statement 2 of the noise and the dust. I wholeheartedly support the includes the comment that Bill. I hope that it will proceed through its stages. I “it may be appropriate to incorporate a buffer zone around the cannot imagine why the Government or the Opposition operations”, would not want it to succeed. It is an effective measure but there is no definition of the buffer zone. Paragraph 1.1. in Wales and Scotland, so let us have it in England, too. of the dust annexe states that “residents can potentially be affected by dust up to 1 km from the 1.24 pm source”, Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I welcome and paragraph 1.36 says that the initiative of the hon. Member for North West “it is preferable that dust-generating activities are separated by a Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) in bringing this Bill stand-off distance from residential properties” forward. It has a valuable contribution to make to but again there is no definition of the stand-off area or dealing with the problems of open-cast. My constituency the buffer zone. probably has, or has had, more open-cast in it than any other in the whole of the north of England. It has been On meeting the planning authorities that are dealing going on for many years. They used not to bother about with an application, we might say, “Can we have a buffer zones when they first started open-cast in my separation zone and stop the site going 50 metres or constituency; they just removed the villages. That is 70 metres from the nearest property; or can we have a what happened in Radcliffe and in Chevington Drift. limit of 500 metres?” The planning officer is likely to The one benefit, of course, was the people got new say, “Well, why 500 metres and not 450, or why 450 metres houses, albeit in places a little distance away. and not 400?” It is easy to get into a horrible spiral in which no matter what buffer zone is thought to be right, A secondary benefit was that in some cases derelict implementing it cannot be justified. That is why it is so land was restored by the open-cast process. To this day, important for us to set guidance specifying a 500 metre employment is generated by open-cast mining. Some of separation zone. that employment is mobile, as contractors bring workers from other sites, but it is still significant. In more recent Those who have dealt with applications will know years, we have secured the community benefit of significant that guidance often says that the applicant must take amounts of money and new community facilities in steps and provide measures to ensure that noise is not some of the villages as a result. As other hon. Members increased by more than 10 dB over the previous ambient have pointed out, however, the residents living closest to noise level. However, anyone who has dealt with the the activity experience noise, dust and the loss of the planning process will also know that, typically, noise is attractiveness of the surrounding environment, often measured at a very strange time for determining loudness for the rest of their lives. That especially affects retired or on a day when the weather is most suitable for a low people, the remainder of whose lives, in which they had measurement. There is also the well-known trick of hoped to enjoy their garden quietly, is blighted by the carrying out traffic studies at half-term, when half the presence of open-cast. traffic is not on the road. Then there are assessments Some of the communities have already been affected, that a 6 metre-high noise bund will stop huge amounts and to some extent scarred, by deep mining. That is true of noise, when there is no real way of disproving in Ellington, for example. In such areas, it is not just a it—consultants often say different things. We end up question of one application and one open-cast site; with a situation in which the wind blows the wrong way when that is over, another comes along, and then another. and the noise is incredibly higher than the 10 dB level. Of course, that provides continuity of employment, but All those subjective tests with which the planning it also provides continuity of disturbance, noise, dust authorities have to wrestle are not achieving the right and all the other problems. The communities of balance and they are making it hard for planning authorities Widdrington village, Widdrington Station and Stobswood successfully to turn down applications. The mining have been encircled by open-cast, which continues, with companies with the threat hanging over them might say further applications into the future. The least that those that if the application is turned down they will appeal, people deserve is recognition that there should be a have a public inquiry or go to the Secretary of State. Some protective distance between their homes and open-cast have even threatened to seek costs against the county sites, and certainty, when people buy houses in the area, council. The situation is not fair; it needs to change. that there will not be an open-cast site at the bottom of The 500 metre buffer zone will not resolve all the the garden. That is a serious worry for people who think issues that residents face. There are two applications that at some point they will have to sell their house and current in my constituency. The residents of Smalley move, or for those who would like to move away from already have to contend with a site that has been going open-cast, having had 20 or 30 years of it, to an area for a couple of years, and they are now faced with where it is not present, and who want the opportunity several more years of it. They face the blight of 90 lorries to sell their home. coming in and out and of the blasting and the noise I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for Communities from the mine, perhaps within 70 metres—under the and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member new application—of some of the houses. The residents for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell), who is answering the 657 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 658 Separation Zones) Bill Separation Zones) Bill debate and taking forward Government policy, will 500-metre buffer zone. Unfortunately it was introduced recognise that we all understand that there must be a after the development of the Ffos-y-Fran site, too late balance between the nation’s energy requirements and to help the people of Merthyr Tydfil, but the fact is that the consequences for communities of meeting the it is entirely wrong for the people of Wales and Scotland requirements for deep mining, open-cast mining and to have that protection when the people of England do power generation. However, those areas that have had not. I hope that the Bill, together with planning reform constant open-cast mining over a period deserve a and the developing localism agenda—although the current recognition that the time has come when the industry Localism Bill does not cover this issue—will bring an must move on to other areas, and a more immediate end to the trampling of local communities by central protection from the threat of open-cast mining close to Government. their homes. I hope, therefore, that the concept of the In 2004 the then Energy Minister—coincidentally, buffer zone can be built into our planning as it is in my predecessor as Member of Parliament for North Scotland and Wales. Warwickshire—wrote to the Welsh Assembly urging its members to impose an open-cast coal mine, against the 1.27 pm wishes of the people living near Ffos-y-Fran. In his letter, dated December 2004 and obtained under the Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I join other Freedom of Information Act, he wrote: hon. Members in congratulating my hon. Friend the “May I take this opportunity to say how pleased I was to hear Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) that the East Pit opencast development has been approved...The on his Bill. His constituency neighbours mine, and Planning Decision Committee’s acceptance of the Inspector’s the areas that he has discussed, such as the village of conclusions that the need for coal and the economic benefits Measham, are very close to the border with my constituency. would outweigh the harm to the environment and the amenity of We have issues in common. My constituency of North local residents is particularly noteworthy.I hope that these arguments Warwickshire also has a mixed history with open-cast will also carry weight with the committee which decides the Ffos y mining—I say “mixed” because the area is traditionally Fran application”. a coal-mining area, and deep mines and open-cast coal I do not want to see Ministers in London overrule mines have provided sources of employment and been a local councils and local people and impose open-cast fundamental part of the community in such areas for coal mines 36 metres from people’s doors, and I therefore many decades. hope that my hon. Friend’s Bill will be passed. However, the impact of open-cast coal mining on the environment of towns and villages such as Polesworth, 1.32 pm Dordon and the surrounding area, has been enormous. Thankfully, open-cast coal mining no longer takes place Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): I congratulate my in North Warwickshire, and I assure the House that hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire there is no appetite locally for it to return. In the past (Andrew Bridgen) on his Bill, and offer it my wholehearted few years, however, there has been a fear that it might support. I shall not rehearse all the arguments that have rear its head again. I believe that to be a broadly been presented so ably by so many Members, but it is misguided but understandable fear, which is a result of clear to me that there is cross-party agreement not only Warwickshire county council consulting on a new minerals on the buffer zone but on the horrors of open-cast core strategy. The council is obliged by law to consult mining, of which many Members who are present have on the minerals core strategy—it cannot simply ignore experience. It is to be hoped that, if nothing else, an the coal underneath the ground—so the consultation all-party group will emerge from this, so that together was required. That was taken by some local people as a we can try to ensure that our communities who are sign that the county council was looking to welcome working so hard to oppose open-cast mining benefit open-cast back, and I received some letters suggesting from all the support, advice and experience that can be that it was inviting UK Coal to come in and start brought to bear. open-cast coal mining. I assure people that that is not The Bill is relevant to my constituents, who currently the case. As the consultation is going—it is not yet face the third application from UK Coal to develop an over—I am pleased that it looks as if the coal in the open-cast mine near the villages of Cossall and Trowell. ground around the village of Shuttington, in particular, Mercifully, both my predecessors were successful in is likely to be safeguarded. That means, of course, that spearheading the campaign against other applications, the risk is still there, but it is no higher than it was last and I hope to repeat their success. The application is to year, five years ago or earlier. At the end of the day, the mine 1.275 million tonnes of coal and almost a quarter coal is under the ground and we cannot do anything of a million tonnes of fire clay over an area of 130 hectares. about it. The best that we can hope for is the safeguarding Broxtowe contains an abundance of houses, and we of the coal. The uncertainty and the blight remain, do not have much green belt land. The application because there is always the possibility that one day relates to the heart of that precious land, and it fills someone will come along and try to dig out the coal many of us with horror, not just because of the dust and using open-cast methods. That is why I consider the Bill noise that many Members have mentioned but because so important. there will be some eight lorry movements an hour. We Some people have said to me that 500 metres does not can imagine the impact that that will have, not just on sound very much. Let me remind the House of the brief the residents of Cossall and Trowell but on all the other history that we were given by my hon. Friend the communities that will be affected. It is surely unacceptable Member for North West Leicestershire of the situation in this modern age to extract minerals such as coal and in Ffos-y-Fran in Merthyr Tydfil, where there are houses other substances in that way. It inflicts real blight on 36 metres from the edge of the open-cast pit. As we our countryside, and it has a direct impact on the heard, Wales now benefits from the protection of a quality of people’s lives. 659 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 660 Separation Zones) Bill Separation Zones) Bill [Anna Soubry] 1.38 pm

I do not want to go on much longer because so much Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): The has been said very ably and I would just repeat those planning regime necessarily needs to strike a balance arguments. I fully endorse all those comments. However, between development and the legitimate protection of I make this plea. It is about localism. Other hon. local communities and the environment. I am familiar Members have referred to that, but I hope that the personally with the issue of open-cast coal mining. May Minister, whatever the Government’s attitude might be I declare an interest? In my former being as deputy to this excellent Bill—I hope that they will adopt it—hears general secretary of the Transport and General Workers what is coming out loudly and clearly from Members Union, as it was then known, I was responsible for and their areas. I do not know of any application that energy policy and the membership employed in open-cast has not been opposed by every parish, borough and coal mines. In the debates over many years on energy county affected—they have done that not just as a policy, it was right that we should seek—Governments group, but individually. Almost without exception, of both political persuasions sought to do this—to democratically elected representatives in my area and maximise indigenous sources of supply and to develop areas represented by other hon. Members on both sides a balanced energy policy, drawing on a wide range of of the House have opposed these applications. Invariably, sources of supply, including nuclear, renewables and they go to appeal and unfortunately, as we all know, coal, both deep-mined and open-cast, which are partners, they are signed off by the Secretary of state. With great not opposites, in any sensible energy policy. We therefore respect, that flies in the face of what we say we now all do not agree with any view that holds that there should believe in, which is localism. be no place for open-cast coal mining. On the other hand, it was an error of historic proportions that our deep-mine coal industry was allowed to decline as it Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): Does my hon. was, not least because we still have 300 years of supply. Friend agree that local councils and MPs oppose these Coal is an energy source that now comes into its own, applications not because of nimbyism but generally on particularly with the development of clean coal technology. strong, robust planning grounds that are entirely consistent with planning policy? That is why it is so incredibly Any development—nuclear, coal or renewables—requires frustrating that their decisions get overturned at appeal permission, and if it is granted, jobs are created. It by the Secretary of State, who seems just to fly in the cannot be right, however, for any open-cast coal mine face of planning policy. development fundamentally to disturb a local community’s peace and tranquillity. As was said earlier, developers are more likely to be granted permission if they take Anna Soubry: I could not agree more. I am grateful local communities’ legitimate concerns properly into for that intervention and I fully support it. It is deeply account. ironic. We congratulate the hon. Member for North West The other important matter to be considered is this. I Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) on introducing the know from the fight that has been put up in Cossall and Bill, which rightly addresses genuine concerns felt by in Trowell that local councils and local people find communities across Britain. It is clear from the contributions themselves in a battle with UK Coal, which has a made from both sides of the House, including by my number of resources, including the ability to instruct hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta experts. Already our hard-pressed parish and town councils Blackman-Woods), that there is broad cross-party support are looking at how they can raise funds. There is just for the Bill. the beginning of an equality of arms, but as my hon. There are four main reasons why the Bill is worthy. Friend has said, invariably, the county council opposes First, the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire is these applications for sound planning reasons. It is not right that Scotland and Wales already have the 500-metre a question of nimbyism. Many of those county councillors buffer zone between open-cast mines and residential are not affected; they do not represent those areas, but areas. Secondly, the Bill will help to reduce pollution in they accept the argument that they should oppose the communities where there are proposals to open open-cast application on planning grounds. Unfortunately, however, mines. Thirdly, the communities affected by open-cast the Secretary of State, after the inquiry, if it goes to an coal mining universally support the Bill. Fourthly, the inquiry, takes a different view. Bill will legally define coal operators’ obligations to These applications take many years. I know that my local communities, which is right. The hon. Gentleman hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire was also right to say that the Bill is important not only and others have campaigned for years. The process has because there are 29 current open-cast sites, but because in effect barely begun. Many years of campaigning lie 34 sites are proposed for the next stage of development. ahead. We face that in my constituency. It means that Under the Labour Government, some progress in the for years people have that awful blight hanging over right direction was made, such as through the planning their head. They do not know whether their beautiful, policy assumptions relating to extraction. That addressed precious, highly treasured countryside will be blighted the 500-metre issue, and there was a caveat that ultimately and scarred for ever by open-cast mining. led to successful challenges being mounted to developments I hope that the Government will support the Bill and unacceptably close to residential areas. We believe this that the Minister will take from it the strength of feeling is a worthy Bill, which deserves to be given a fair wind among Members on both sides of the House on the for its next parliamentary stages. It can also be strongly issue. The buffer zone may not be a panacea but it argued that England should come into line with Scotland would be a great help and assist our local authorities in and Wales, and that local communities in different areas making planning decisions on such applications. should enjoy the same protection. 661 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 662 Separation Zones) Bill Separation Zones) Bill The Bill is particularly well timed because the Committee approach that takes account of the different factors in stage of the Localism Bill is currently commencing. The play, and I shall say something about what those factors point was made that the Localism Bill’s measures do are in a few moments. It would clearly be wrong for him not satisfactorily address the issues of great public to have an arbitrary pre-disposition, either for or against interest and concern that are raised in this Bill. We will every application. So despite what the hon. Gentleman support the Bill therefore, and we urge Ministers to might wish or fear to be the case about the Secretary of respond positively to the strong representations on it State’s approach, it has to be objective and balanced. made by Members on both sides of the House. The Secretary of State’s approach must take account of all the factors that he ought to take into account and exclude all the factors that he ought not to take into 1.44 pm account. I believe that that is the legal phraseology, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for although I am not a lawyer. Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): I congratulate the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Will (Andrew Bridgen) on his success in the ballot, on presenting the Minister explain whether the change in government his case so cogently and on attracting a lot of cross-party has been accompanied by a change in the Secretary of support for his Bill. I must stress at the outset that I State’s basic application of principles? Does the localism cannot discuss the merits of any live planning application agenda of this Government mean that a Secretary of because the Secretary of State’s role in the planning State may be more willing now to allow the decision to system means that I would be prejudicing it to do so. A be made locally than was the case in the past? lot of sites were mentioned by hon. Members who were, quite reasonably, advancing the case for the Bill and, in some cases, discussing applications, prospective or otherwise. Andrew Stunell: The hon. Gentleman makes an important I am sorry to disappoint hon. Members, but I am not point, which I shall discuss later. In outline, the able to respond to those points. Government’s approach is that local communities should have greater capacity to influence the nature of their I have a little history on this matter myself. When I future growth and development, which is why we removed was a prospective candidate, as the hon. Member for the regional spatial strategies and why we are placing a North West Leicestershire was before he was successful huge amount of emphasis on the neighbourhood planning at the most recent election, I appeared at a public system. inquiry on the application for open-cast coal mining at Towers Farm, near the village of Poynton, on the edge The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington of what is now my constituency. [Interruption.] My (Jack Dromey), who speaks for the Opposition, and I right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed are currently wading through the Localism Bill, and we (Sir Alan Beith) is telling the House that he was born will shortly consider the provisions relating to planning. there. I am happy to report to the House, as I was happy I do not know whether we will reach a common view, to report to my electors at the time, that the public because he has perhaps indicated that he is not convinced inquiry came out in favour of no open-cast coal mining. that localism is the way to go. I look forward to that Although most people see my constituency as a leafy discussion in the coming week or so. suburban area adjacent to a national park, it has the My right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon- same coal beneath it as is under the constituencies of Tweed asked whether there will be a change in emphasis the hon. Members for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) and balance in the way in which the Secretary of State and for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), so I fully understand approaches such matters. When the Localism Bill is the high level of public concern about these applications. enacted, such matters will not be exclusively for the The concerns about the environmental protection lost Secretary of State, because some of them will be devolved. as a result of the intrusion of these developments and In a few minutes, I will discuss the national planning about the dust are often well justified. policy framework, which is a development of current national planning guidance. It is clearly important to Nigel Mills: I think that we all fully appreciate that take that into account in respect of minerals policy and the Minister cannot comment on individual applications, the use of coal. but may I press him to comment a little on the annoyance Several hon. Members have spoken in the debate. I that people feel when county councils turn down have commented on what my hon. Friend the Member applications on valid planning grounds and they see for North West Leicestershire said in introducing the Secretaries of State completely override local opinion? Bill. He stood up strongly for one local community, Is that approach appropriate? Does he think it might Minorca, which some of us thought was in the change a little under his Government? Mediterranean but is clearly much closer to home, and set out stories of blight from around the country. He Andrew Stunell: I am glad the hon. Gentleman made emphasised the widespread support for his Bill. that point because during his earlier remarks he stated as a fact that a Secretary of State automatically approves applications that come before him—or her, as was the Andrew Bridgen: I was discussing the Minorca Opencast case in previous Administrations. As a matter of fact, Protest Group. The old mine is the Minorca site, which the Secretary of State refused the most recent appeal is just outside the village of Measham at the southern put before him relating to a site in Yorkshire, so it is not end of North West Leicestershire. right to say that he takes an arbitrary view that every application should be approved and I would not want Andrew Stunell: Coming to Parliament is an educational the record to suggest that he does. When an application process, and I am delighted to have learned yet another comes before him, he has to adopt a quasi-judicial place name. That protest group has attracted the hon. 663 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 664 Separation Zones) Bill Separation Zones) Bill [Andrew Stunell] Localism Bill and that this Bill is unnecessary, in which case I would have very great concerns, or is he suggesting Gentleman’s support, which I fully understand. That that the Government are backing this Bill, which is led him to introduce his Bill, which in turn generated a what everyone wants to happen today? lot of support from around the country for his cause. The hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta Andrew Stunell: I thank the hon. Lady for her Blackman-Woods) made some strong, cross-party points intervention. Perhaps if I make a little more progress, in supporting the hon. Gentleman’s case, as did the hon. the factors that we have to take into account when we Member for South Derbyshire, who is not in her place, consider our approach to the Bill will become clear. and the hon. Member for Amber Valley. My long-standing right hon. Friend the Member for Mr Chope: Will the Minister perhaps say whether the Berwick-upon-Tweed also made some points. He discussed Government support, tolerate or oppose the Bill? Why my first point, which concerns the need to strike a do we need to wait any longer to hear a one-word balance between the competing needs of local communities answer to that question? and national policy. In that respect, he discussed the possibility of local authorities developing and implementing Andrew Stunell: Let me set out my case. buffer zones to provide local protection for communities. I assure him that it is both possible and right for local Anna Soubry: Just tell us! authorities in developing their planning policies to consider buffer zones on a case-by-case basis. Andrew Stunell: I will set out my case. Let us be clear: The separation distance would have to be justified. Of coal extraction, like other mineral extraction, is different course, some local planning authorities have such buffer from most other sources of development. The resource zones in place. can be extracted only exactly where it lies. Coal extraction is not footloose, like housing or retail development. If it Sir Alan Beith: My hon. Friend does not quite get the is turned down in one field, it cannot simply move to point. Something is not a buffer zone as we understand the next field. Such things are not permanent operations. it if is dealt with on a case-by-case basis. It is a reasonable After extraction, the land must be restored to high expectation in almost all conceivable circumstances that environmental standards. there will be a set minimum distance, which does not have to become a battle ground between the local Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Many Members in authority and the developer or on an issue that might be the Chamber feel passionately about this issue because overturned on appeal. it directly affects their constituents. Two hon. Members have asked the Minister a direct question: do the Andrew Stunell: Whether a condition appears as part Government support, oppose or tolerate the Bill? It of a council’s adopted and approved local plan—for seems that the Minister is trying to talk for another half instance, the Northumberland unitary council development hour, but that would be cowardly and would not answer— plan—or is imposed by the Secretary of State or, indeed, by legislation makes no material difference. I draw my Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am right hon. Friend’s attention to the fact that the Scottish sure that the hon. Gentleman does not mean that and and Welsh buffer zones, as they have been described, or that he will take back the word “cowardly”. bans have been prayed in aid. I also draw his attention to the explanatory notes produced by the Library. They Chris Bryant: Obviously I am not saying that the make it quite clear that the policy on open-cast mining Minister is being cowardly, but if he were to do that, he in Scotland does indeed have a presumption on 500 metres, would be cowardly. but it is subject to some quite important exceptions. They say: Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sure that the hon. “Site boundaries within 500m of the edge of a community may be acceptable where it would result in improvement of local Gentleman will withdraw the word “cowardly” in this amenity or future development opportunities by clearing an area case. of derelict or despoiled land, the stabilisation of an undermined site or similar benefit. Topography, the nature of the landscape, Chris Bryant: If that is your ruling, Mr Deputy Speaker, visibility and prevailing wind directions may result in a greater or I am happy to withdraw the word, but I want the lesser distance being required, depending on specific local Minister to answer the question directly for the people circumstances.” in the constituencies that are most affected, because So a number of important caveats relate to the Scottish otherwise he is a disgrace. buffer zone, which has been prayed in aid. As I understand current planning law and what the law will be after the passage of the Localism Bill, it would be perfectly open Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. We should not get carried to Northumberland unitary authority to decide to adopt away. Minister, I am sure that you have heard the such a planning approach. Whatever the planning approach points—you carry on. —whether it is statutory, as in Scotland, or based on the development of the local planning system—it would of Andrew Stunell: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. necessity have to take account of particular circumstances. I can assure the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) that before we get to 2.30 pm, he will understand Roberta Blackman-Woods: I am listening to the Minister the Government’s view of the Bill. There will no doubt with some interest but growing concern. Is he arguing be further opportunities for Members to interrogate me that the measures in the Bill are, in fact, contained in the about our decision and the way in which we reached it. 665 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 666 Separation Zones) Bill Separation Zones) Bill Anna Soubry: We are all here to help the Minister. We Dan Byles: The Minister of State, Department of just want to know, please, whether he is for the Bill, Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member against it or neutral. This is the third or fourth time that for Wealden (Charles Hendry), told the Select Committee the question has been asked. on Energy and Climate Change that he did not see a future for unabated coal-fired power stations in this Andrew Stunell: I do not want to irritate the House country. There is no working carbon capture and storage further, so let me say, in plain words, that the Government coal power station anywhere in the world, and there do not support the Bill. I shall explain why as we are many question marks over whether CCS technology proceed; I would not want to cause any more friction with coal will ever be commercially viable. Given that, than I might anyway. does the Under-Secretary believe that there is an imminent shortage of domestic coal production in the UK that The extraction of coal is different from other requires an expansion of open-cast coal mining in the considerations. The operation is not permanent or long next 10 to 15 years? term, and nowadays there are now always requirements for the restoration of land to high environmental standards, which can sometimes involve great biodiversity benefits. Andrew Stunell: I cannot say that I represent the view of the Department of Energy and Climate Change, but The period of extraction will vary considerable, we are talking not about expending production but depending on the availability of resources, but most maintaining it. It is in the nature of extraction that once coal operations last for a far shorter period than stone a site has had all its coal removed, it is no longer viable extraction or crushed rock operations, for example. for coal production and new sites have to be developed. However, I recognise that three or five years—or perhaps At the moment, 35% of UK coal consumption is provided longer—is still a considerable time for local people to for by UK coal extraction. That not only provides put up with such development, which is why environmental jobs—a point made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, effects are properly considered at the outset and monitored Erdington—but reduces the cost of imports. throughout the life of a site’s operation. It also explains why it is important that we get the right balance between To respond to the point about carbon capture and the need for coal on the one hand, and coal extraction’s storage made by the hon. Member for North Warwickshire environmental impact on local communities on the other (Dan Byles), the coalition agreement outlined plans to hand. I hope that I have gone some way to demonstrate support the development of four plants with carbon that I have first-hand understanding of that second capture and storage technology, which can reduce emissions point. from coal-fired power stations by about 90%. I understand that formal proposals are under consideration at the Our debate so far has lacked any serious consideration moment. The Government’s main policy objective for of the role of coal in the United Kingdom’s energy mix, coal is to ensure that the United Kingdom is able to although the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington make the best use of a valuable natural resource where sketched in a small amount of detail. Energy policy is a it is economically viable and environmentally acceptable matter for the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate to do so. Change. The Government recognise the need for a low-carbon economy and that any credible strategy for Indigenous reserves contribute towards the Government’s tackling climate change must include a consideration of energy objectives on affordability, and form part of the the country’s energy needs. policy on security of energy supply. The reality is that much of UK’s coal reserves lie in England. They have the potential to provide security of energy supply long Jack Dromey: The Minister’s prolonged justification after oil and natural gas are exhausted, so we need to of the Government’s position is fascinating. As he has ensure that we can preserve coal for future extraction. set out that position, however, may I press him to bring his remarks to a conclusion before 2.30 pm so that this worthy Bill can proceed to Committee? Jacob Rees-Mogg: That is an exceptionally interesting point: we may need to go back to coal when other fossil fuels have run out. Might the Government not therefore Andrew Stunell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that, consider it appropriate to have a 550-yard limit, as I but we have had something approaching an hour’s prefer to call it, until such time as it is necessary to dig exposition of the local balance; it is only right for me to out substantial quantities of coal again? say something about the national factors, which also have to be taken into account. Andrew Stunell: I have already made the point that, as The House needs to recognise that coal continues to I understand it, the UK coal industry does not see itself play an important role in our energy mix and is likely expanding the amount that it extracts; it looks to maintain to continue to do so for the foreseeable future. It is the amount that it extracts. My understanding from the a reliable form of energy and it makes a significant last time I took a detailed look at UK energy reserves is contribution to meeting UK energy demand; the figure that we have something like 200 years’ worth of identified is about 30%. Coal production in the UK has declined coal reserves. That is clearly much more substantial significantly in the past few years, but coal mining is than the amount of oil and gas that can be recovered still a significant industry in this country. The indigenous within the confines of the United Kingdom’s economic coal industry supplies 35% of our national coal demand. sphere. Existing planning policy already places considerable emphasis on ensuring that the environmental effects of Chris Bryant: That has nothing to do with the Bill. mineral extraction, including coal extraction, are mitigated. There are specific planning policies on coal in England. Andrew Stunell: It has a great deal to do with the Bill, Hon. Members have referred to minerals planning policy as the hon. Gentleman will understand in just a moment. guidance note 3, which carries a presumption against 667 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 668 Separation Zones) Bill Separation Zones) Bill [Andrew Stunell] Nigel Mills: I struggle with the point that the Minister is making. Does he really think that all the councils that surface coal mining extraction unless the proposal meets have consistently tried to defeat such planning applications stringent tests. That connects back to the points made have somehow missed the idea of putting a 500 metre about the Secretary of State’s role. There is a presumption separation zone in their planning policy, and that saying, against surface coal mining extraction unless stringent “Change your policy and put that in,” will stand up to tests are met. Those tests relate to environmental scrutiny when applications are made and subsequently acceptability and the provision of local and community go to appeal? We need national protection to support benefits; it is necessary to demonstrate that those clearly planning authorities that are trying to implement that outweigh the likely impacts. policy, which they are struggling to do at this point.

Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Does the Andrew Stunell: The Scottish and Welsh situations Minister foresee the issue of open-cast mining being have quite often been prayed in aid during the debate. part of the future requirement for local authorities to However, in both places the buffer zone is a matter of work together and co-operate on infrastructure planning, planning policy rather than of statutory requirement. as outlined in the Localism Bill? We believe that councils are best placed to make those planning decisions, just as we are content for the Assembly Andrew Stunell: My hon. Friend is right. The Localism in Wales and the Scottish Parliament to make those Bill introduces a new duty on local authorities to co-operate. decisions for their respective countries. That is designed to provide a framework for local authorities to work jointly on common issues. My hon. Nigel Mills: The Bill asks the Minister to issue that Friend could also have mentioned the local enterprise planning policy guidance for England. If the planning partnerships, which are formed from a number of local policy sets out the 500 metre mark—in some situations, authorities working with the private and commercial that could be wider or narrower—we will at least have a sector and aim to promote growth and future prosperity decent, robust starting point. We understand that that in an area. They will want to look at all sources of may be varied in local circumstances, but the problem at economic growth in their areas. There will be a framework the moment is that councils struggle to justify 50 metres in which that can take place. versus 400, 300, 200 or 150 metres, ending up with Proposals for open-cast mining in national parks, open-cast mines that are 30, 50 or 70-odd metres from areas of outstanding natural beauty and sites designated people’s houses, such as the proposal at Lodge House in for nature conservation purposes must meet additional my constituency. That is just not acceptable. tests because of the serious impact that minerals development may have on the natural beauty of such Andrew Stunell: Although it is very tempting, I cannot areas. My hon. Friends the Members for Amber Valley talk about specific cases. The hon. Gentleman has and for South Derbyshire have a combination of highlighted that a minimum zone ought to be left in any community impact and natural landscape value impact given circumstance, and the appropriate body to take to take into account. There is a requirement and expectation that decision is the local planning authority. that all proposals for coal extraction must be accompanied by an environmental statement. That allows a thorough Mr Jackson: If I may come to the Minister’s assistance, consideration of all environmental effects and what there is an established precedent in respect of the must be done to ensure that they can be kept to an development of residential accommodation near to major acceptable minimum. national energy infrastructure such as gas pipelines. That is already established in planning policy guidelines, Dan Byles: I am curious to know whether the Minister and it is robustly interpreted by many local planning agrees with the then Energy Secretary, my predecessor authorities. It is not beyond the wit of man or beast to as MP for North Warwickshire, who in 2004 wrote to extend that arrangement for open-cast mining. the Welsh Assembly saying that the need for coal outweighs environmental issues and the amenities of local people? Andrew Stunell: The relevant consideration with gas pipelines is safety. Similar points have been made, and Andrew Stunell: I hope that my hon. Friend will gain sometimes advanced in private Members’ Bills, about some reassurance from the fact that the most recent high-voltage power lines and things of that sort. There application that came in front of the Secretary of State are different considerations, but my hon. Friend quite demonstrates that the national test does not outweigh correctly points out that national policy is appropriate the local environmental test. The Secretary of State to take account of factors such as safety. However, could not have—and, the evidence shows, has not had—a when it comes to environmental factors and the impact closed mind, as my hon. Friend fears. of a development on a local community, the right place Current policy recognises that, in individual for making a decision is at the local level. Local authorities circumstances, it could be appropriate to have an adequate should be free to carry out their role with the minimum separation distance between the boundary of a minerals of national interference. site and the nearest community. Any such distance must That, of course, is exactly the circumstance in Scotland be properly justified. I have already said that local and Wales. Planning is devolved to those Administrations, planning authorities—in Northumberland, for instance— and they are entitled to have different policies to meet are free to do that. The coalition Government believe their particular situations—and even now, before the that councils are best placed to make planning decisions passage of the Localism Bill, so are local authorities in for their local areas, and it is right that they should be England. That will be even more the case once that Bill free to carry on their role with minimal interference. becomes an Act. 669 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Planning (Opencast Mining 670 Separation Zones) Bill Separation Zones) Bill The Planning (Opencast Mining Separation Zones) Andrew Stunell: Okay, probably the most helpful Bill aims to align more closely the policies of Scotland, thing to do would be to start the sentence again from Wales and England. At the moment, all three countries the beginning. What is required when a decision is taken must have a system where planning applications are is that there should be an appropriate balance between decided on their merits after consideration of all relevant the national factors—which in future will be set by the planning issues, including the likely effect of the proposed national planning policy framework and which are currently development on the surrounding area. Having different set by note 3—and, on the other hand, the requirement approaches to the same end is exactly what diversity to protect the environment and the communities where and devolution mean. The passage of a Bill requiring the development is proposed. That is what is tussled the imposition—if that is the right word—of a fixed over at the moment. separation distance would in fact go beyond the requirement in Wales and Scotland, where that is covered by planning Jacob Rees-Mogg: I thank the Minister once again policies. for giving way; he has been remarkably generous and gracious. When talking about protecting the environment Dan Byles: I am interested in the Minister’s suggestion and communities, he seems to have left out one key that somehow this is a localist issue. Can he therefore point, and that is the individual. I was struck very much explain why minerals extraction was specifically excluded by the point that my hon. Friend the Member for North from the Localism Bill? West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) made about the lady in the Wrekin, aged 87, who suddenly had a mine Andrew Stunell: Yes, I can. It is because minerals come right up to her window and who could not go out extraction will form part of the national planning policy of her house. Surely Her Majesty’s Government and we framework. In that respect, it is no different from—or, as Members of Parliament are here to protect individuals. perhaps I should say, it at least starts from the baseline If we are talking about just the environment and of—the current situation, in that national planning communities, that is leaving elderly people in a most policy covers mineral extraction, whether of coal or unsatisfactory position. other materials, and overrides local planning control. The national planning policy framework will be different, Andrew Stunell: I absolutely agree. As I have said, I although I shall say more about that in a few minutes. am somewhat constrained because I cannot comment on individual applications, but it would seem extraordinary if, in this day and age of environmental impact assessments, Dan Byles: I am sorry, but I am now utterly confused. it was considered appropriate to site open-cast mining I know that I am new to this place, but is mineral within such a small distance. extraction something that needs to be dealt with nationally, as the Minister appeared to say just now, or is he saying that it should not be subject to a national policy, as Jacob Rees-Mogg: I would not ask the Minister to under this Bill, but left to local authorities? He appears speak to individual cases, but will he lay down some to have completely contradicted himself. general principles as to how individuals might be protected and how Government policy might develop in that direction, even in the absence of the Bill? Will he also Andrew Stunell: No, there is no contradiction, and I tell us whether compensation could be paid to people am happy to reassure the hon. Gentleman. The current such as the lady in the Wrekin? We need to understand position is that decisions at the local level on the extraction that individuals in our constituencies really will be of minerals have to be taken with regard to the existing protected. note 3, to which I have already referred, but with safeguards— Andrew Stunell: There are two ways in which that will be advanced from where we are now. The first will Andrew Bridgen: I hate to say this to the Minister, but involve the national planning policy framework, on I think he is digging a big hole for himself on this issue, which we are currently consulting and inviting views. and we will be back. When hon. Members read this debate in Hansard, they will note that I have reminded them of the opportunity Andrew Stunell: The fundamental lay-out of coal, to give us their views on this matter. That consultation which is not in the control of the Government—it was will set the level of priority to be given to the national established about 200 million years ago—means that a case for the extraction of coal by open-cast mining in 500 metre buffer zone has an entirely different impact England. Set in balance with that will be—and, indeed, on coal extraction in Scotland and Wales. Indeed, the are—the social and environment factors that my hon. imposition of buffer zones there had little immediate Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob impact on the industry’s ability to extract coal, regardless Rees-Mogg) has just invited me to comment on. of the environmental impact. Dan Byles: At the risk of being called to order for Anna Soubry: The Minister gave way previously just speaking for a community that is not in my constituency, as he was in the middle of explaining the Government’s may I draw the Minister’s attention to the case of the view on whether something was a local decision or people of Ffos-y-fran, with whom I have spoken about whether the national guidelines would override any this issue? I urge him to get in touch with the action local decision. I am sure that I speak for many Members group there, and to invite himself down there to stand when I say that we would be very grateful if he would be in the garden of the house that is 36 metres from the so good as to finish that sentence and please explain open-cast pit, so that he can see for himself the impact that point to us. That may be very helpful. that these activities can have on people. 671 Planning (Opencast Mining 11 FEBRUARY 2011 672 Separation Zones) Bill Andrew Stunell: I would be ready to go there, although Business without Debate I must point out that I would not be able to offer an opinion because of the role of the Secretary of State in SEX AND RELATIONSHIPS EDUCATION BILL these matters. I am in no way dismissing the very strong concerns that Members have expressed in this debate. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second The Government are not dismissing them either. We are time. saying that is right and appropriate for local planning authorities to be the people who set the guidelines. If Hon. Members: Object. they think it is appropriate to have a buffer zone in their Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 1 April. area with a presumption of refusal inside that zone, that is a matter for them. However, such a decision has to be APPRENTICESHIPS AND SKILLS (PUBLIC justified on the facts of each individual case and, at the PROCUREMENT CONTRACTS) BILL moment, the planning authorities have to balance with Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second that the factors in note 3. time.

Anna Soubry: I understand the dilemma in which the Hon. Members: Object. Minister finds himself, perhaps on many fronts, and I Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 17 June. would not ask him to express an opinion, but would he be so good as to come to the villages of Cossall and CONTAMINATED BLOOD (SUPPORT FOR Trowell in my constituency? There, he would see an INFECTED AND BEREAVED PERSONS) BILL historic area of land with a strong link to D. H. Lawrence— [LORDS] indeed, his fiancée’s cottage is in Cossall. This piece of Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second our green belt is much loved by many people in Broxtowe, time. but it is now under threat from open-cast mining. The people there would be grateful to the Minister for Hon. Members: Object. coming to the area and at least looking at the issues, if Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 1 April. not giving his opinion on them. COUNCIL HOUSING (LOCAL FINANCING Andrew Stunell: I am looking forward to my grand PATHFINDERS) BILL tour. I will certainly consider any invitations from hon. Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second Members to visit their areas. time. The national planning policy framework will set out the Government’s economic, environmental and social Hon. Members: Object. priorities for the planning system in England in a single, Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 1 Apri1. concise document covering all major forms of development proposals handled by local authorities. Existing policy PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS areas covered by guidance will be integrated into that (AMENDMENT) BILL document. That will, of course, include note 3. The Motion made, That the Bill be now read a Second review will consider the environmental impacts of minerals time. extraction. This is an opportunity to ensure that we have got the right policy for this country to take account Hon. Members: Object. of our particular circumstances. Bill to be read a Second time on Friday 4 March. I therefore ask the hon. Members who have taken part in the debate to offer their suggestions to the 2.31 pm Department on which priorities and policies we might Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): On a adopt—[HON.MEMBERS: “The Bill!”] Well, that is fine. point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. This morning the Hansard will stand as a record of Members’ views on High Court ruled on the decision of the Secretary of this matter. However, the national planning policy State for Education to cut the Building Schools for the framework will not be a Bill; it will be a policy framework— Future programme, claiming that it was unlawful, unfair and an abuse of power. Have you heard a squeak from the Secretary of State, Mr Deputy Speaker? Is he going 2.30 pm to come to this House to explain himself? The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 11(2)). Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): The matter Ordered, That the debate be resumed on Friday has been raised already, and I have heard nothing 28 October. further on it. 673 11 FEBRUARY 2011 Cleveland Fire Authority 674

Cleveland Fire Authority sea every day. A major fire incident, which involved loss of service for the power stations, the port or the road Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House network in the north-east heading up to Scotland, do now adjourn.—(Jeremy Wright.) would ensure significant disruption costing billions of pounds to the national economy. As for control of 2.32 pm major accident hazards, or COMAH, sites, Cleveland Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): I would be grateful fire authority has 34 of the highest top-tier risks and if you, Mr Deputy Speaker, would convey my thanks to three of the lower-tier sites, the biggest number of such Mr Speaker and his office for going out of their way to sites in the country. The Cleveland fire authority area help me secure what I view as a very important debate represents 12% of the COMAH sites in Britain, the formyarea. biggest concentration in the country. We should be in no doubt that having an appropriate, To put matters into perspective, the biggest fire incident effective and resilient fire and rescue service to cope that the country has seen in the post-war era was at with incidents is a vital part of our economy and Buncefield, where a number of explosions took place in society. The tragic death in a fire at his home yesterday oil storage depots in December 2005. The incident morning of former England cricketer, Trevor Bailey, resulted in a massive fire, which engulfed the site, damaged shows all too sadly how fire deaths still occur. The nearby residential and commercial properties and required thoughts of the House are with his family, especially his the evacuation of many homes and businesses from the wife Greta, who thankfully survived the fire. vicinity. The fire burned for several days and emitted large clouds of black smoke into the atmosphere. I At the start of my comments, may I also pay tribute vividly recall travelling down by train from Hartlepool to all those brave firefighters in Cleveland and elsewhere to the House on the day after the explosion and seeing who, day-in and day-out, week-in and week-out, leave the black smoke from many miles away. their families and risk their lives in the pursuit of a safe and fire-free society? It is absolutely right and proper To put the risk facing the Cleveland fire authority to say that firefighters deserve the public’s full respect, area into perspective, a single fuel storage tank facility appreciation and support. I also wish to put on record in my constituency is 100 times larger than the facilities the fact that my hon. Friends the Members for that exploded at Buncefield. The potential of a major Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom fire incident in my constituency or throughout the Blenkinsop), for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) Cleveland area, although horrific to contemplate, needs and for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) had wanted to be identified, managed, planned and, crucially, funded, to be here. You will appreciate, Mr Deputy Speaker, as comprehensively as possible. Teesside has enormous that because today is a Friday—always a busy day in potential in the next few years to become the country’s constituencies for hon. Members—they are unable to leader in advanced manufacturing, and to be the national do so. centre of excellence for energy, particularly renewable energy, and in the process industries. The private sector, I know that the Minister in his place on the Treasury before pumping billions of pounds of investment into Bench is not the Minister with responsibility for fire, an area or country, will rightly want to assess factors but I used to have the same job that he now holds in the such as skills levels, but will also wish to reassure itself Department for Communities and Local Government, that protection of its investment, in terms of resilience so I know from my experience that his diary will be against fire, will be provided. A failure to do so could filled by people and organisations coming to see him severely hinder the prospect of economic growth in my every single day to say that although they appreciate region. The Minister should consider that factor. that cuts and efficiencies have to be made, their particular circumstances warrant special consideration or treatment. The second biggest factor in identifying the risk of a In the case of Cleveland fire brigade, I urge the Minister major fire incident is social and economic deprivation. to recognise that this really is a special, unique and A direct correlation exists between the income of a nationally significant case. person and whether that person has a higher-than-average There are two big factors that massively increase the exposure to fire risk. Teesside has high levels of risk of serious and fatal fires. The first is large concentrations unemployment, at about twice the national average, and of industry; the second is pockets of social and economic that jobless total is rising fast as a result of the Government’s deprivation. The area served by Cleveland fire authority economic policy. The most recent index of multiple has an abundance of both. My area has the largest deprivation measure showed that 40% of all wards concentration of chemical and petro-engineering sites within the Cleveland fire authority area fall within the anywhere in Europe. My constituency has a nuclear worst 10% nationally. The authority must also deal with power station, with the possibility of a replacement to the problems of crime and anti-social behaviour. I am be built in the next few years. There is a gas power not proud to say that the Cleveland area suffers from station nearby at Wilton. Both facilities generate a one of the highest arson rates in the country, with an significant proportion of the nation’s electricity for the estimated nine out of 10 fires considered to have been National Grid. As for national infrastructure, the Tees started deliberately. and Hartlepool port authority handles more than 50 million Those factors—high concentrations of industry, tonnes of cargo a year, making it the largest UK port in important aspects of vital national infrastructure and tonnage terms. The port is growing in importance in social and economic deprivation—mean that Cleveland distribution to supermarkets and other businesses, making fire authority must be seen as a special, even unique, its continuing operation vital to business continuity for case. It is imperative that the area has not only a fire and much of the retail sector in the north of England and rescue service that is adequately funded, but one that is Scotland. Hundreds of thousands of chemical tanker no less than the best in the world, in order to manage movements take place through Teesside by road, rail or the risk of major fire incidents. Under the Government, 675 Cleveland Fire Authority11 FEBRUARY 2011 Cleveland Fire Authority 676

[Mr Iain Wright] I fear that the cuts imposed on Cleveland fire authority by the Government are compromising Cleveland’s ability however, that level of support and funding is not to tackle a repeat of the 1995 fire. The fire authority forthcoming. Cleveland fire authority is being asked to now has only half as many appliances as it did in 1995. find disproportionately high cuts. Under the comprehensive With the greatest respect to retained firefighters from spending review, fire resource expenditure will be reduced the area and from neighbouring Durham and North in real terms, across the country, by about 13%. The Yorkshire, who do a fantastic job, they do not have revenue support grant, from which Cleveland fire authority enough specialist technical knowledge to extinguish a receives about two thirds of its total income, will see a complex industrial fire on such a large scale. cut of about a quarter. I hope that I have made clear to the Minister the What is particularly disappointing is that Cleveland special and unique challenges in the face of which fire authority is being subjected to much larger cuts Cleveland fire authority must operate. I have outlined than other fire authorities. Throughout the CSR period, my real concern that the cuts being imposed on my local Cleveland is being asked to find cuts of about £9 million fire service are pushing to the very limits the brigade’s from a total budget of about £33 million. In the current ability and capacity to cope with a major incident. The financial year the fire authority’s budget has risen by Minister and his Department should reconsider the cuts 0.5% in cash terms, whereas metropolitan authorities’ that are being required, the nature of the grant and its budgets have has risen by an average of 1.3% and those component parts, and the special circumstances of my of combined fire authorities by an average of 2%. In the area. I ask him to reassure me, to reassure Ian Hayton, financial year 2011-12, only one fire authority in the the chief fire officer, and—most important of all—to country will experience a greater reduction in funding, reassure the people and businesses who operate on while the funding of a quarter of authorities will actually Teesside that future funding arrangements for Cleveland grow, albeit in cash rather than real terms. fire authority will allow the firefighters in my area to do Given the unique nature of my area and the challenges their job safely and effectively. facing Cleveland, which I mentioned earlier—high concentrations of industry, pockets of social and economic 2.44 pm deprivation, and the need to maintain business continuity for essential parts of the national infrastructure—how The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for is that fair? Surely a risk factor needs to be included in Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): I the calculation of any funding formula for fire authorities. congratulate the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) The calculation should take into account the special on securing the debate. Listening to his speech, I thought circumstances in my area, and ensure that the best and that we had done a completely unexpected job swap. I most effective risk management can be undertaken. hope I will be able to give him some of the reassurances What is also galling is that the fire authority has he seeks. already risen to the challenge by making efficiencies, The Government have made a clear commitment to streamlining procedure, and being forward-looking and ensuring that the effectiveness of front-line services is innovative. This is not a fire authority that is rooted in protected, but deficit reduction is the No. 1 priority. We the past. In the last five years it has taken more than are borrowing £400 million a day, or £150 billion this £5 million worth of costs out of its organisation, thus year. Deficit reduction has to be the top priority. becoming the second most successful fire authority in In that context, we gave the fire and rescue service terms of efficiency savings per head of the population. some protection in the recent settlement. At the same time, the authority’s performance and presence in the community has grown massively. It has passionately embraced the community safety agenda, Mr Iain Wright: I apologise for intervening so soon. and has adopted a proactive stance in identifying households Is the Minister seriously suggesting that deficit reduction at particular risk of fire, such as those of the elderly. Its takes precedence over fire protection and safety? work in that regard—replacing chip pans and electric blankets and fitting smoke alarms—is increasing Andrew Stunell: Of course it does not. As I said, we exponentially, and has been incredibly successful. It has gave the fire and rescue service some protection in the achieved the greatest reduction in primary fires and recent settlement. Single-purpose fire and rescue authorities accidental dwelling fires in the period since 2001-02, will see a reduction in revenue spending power, taking and it has committed the fourth greatest number of into account grants from central Government and council hours to proactive fire prevention, being beaten only by tax, of 2.2% in 2011-12 and only 0.5% in 2012-13. It is three large metropolitan brigades. It is in the community, clear that fire and rescue services will need to increase emphasising fire safety and prevention. However, given efficiency and deliver reform. However, we have not the level of the current cuts, such activity—which actually ignored their special circumstances. I believe that it is a saves money in the long run—will have to stop. fair settlement for the fire service in what are undoubtedly I genuinely fear that the level of these cuts is beginning very challenging times for the public services in general. to compromise public and firefighter safety, and that—given We have back-loaded cuts to fire and rescue services our unique profile, which I mentioned earlier—the ability to the last two years of the four-year spending review of Cleveland fire brigade to tackle a major incident on period. That will give fire and rescue authorities the Teesside is being stretched to breaking point. I said time they need to make the necessary changes without earlier that the bigger post-war fire in this country was affecting the quality and breadth of the services that the one at Buncefield. The second biggest was on Teesside, they provide. However, there will still be tough choices at the BASF plant in Wilton. In October 1995, 40 appliances to be made and I appreciate that Cleveland is not from Cleveland fire brigade and 200 firefighters tackled excluded from that. However, we believe that significant an industrial blaze that took three days to extinguish. savings can be found by fire and rescue services, including 677 Cleveland Fire Authority11 FEBRUARY 2011 Cleveland Fire Authority 678 through staffing arrangements, sickness management, be increased, therefore. We are currently considering a recruitment freezes, shared services and back-office number of options for distributing future years capital functions. Other things will be relevant to individual funding, and we will consult on the best way to focus authorities. capital funding in order to drive efficiencies and reform, The 2011-13 formula grant settlement for Cleveland which I hope was the point the hon. Gentleman was fire authority was part of what was debated and approved making. by Parliament on Wednesday. Cleveland’s representations The hon. Gentleman rightly drew my attention to the were taken into account by the Secretary of State along private finance initiative. There is a North East Fire and with all other representations. Rescue Authorities—NEFRA—2 PFI project, of which On Cleveland’s settlement, the reduction in formula Cleveland is the lead fire authority. That was a pipeline grant is 9.5% in 2011-12 and 3.4% in 2012-13, but it is project for which funding has been discontinued. We important to consider the other funding that Cleveland recognise that there are concerns about that. The receives. All told, the fire and rescue authority will see Department is working with the NEFRA 2 authorities an overall reduction in spending power of 5.6% in to consider possible funding alternatives over the spending 2011-12 and 2.2% in 2012-13. review period. A Department for Communities and Local Government finance committee will shortly meet The authority has been protected. The hon. Gentleman’s to review the funding options for this project, and we points about deprivation and risk have been taken into hope to have a decision shortly. account. I want to set out how that has been done and The hon. Gentleman referred to a major incident in the effect of that on Cleveland. the Cleveland fire authority area and to the pressures it We have struck a balance in the distribution system, had put on resources. That is why there is a national protecting fire and rescue authorities from the largest resilience programme. I suspect the hon. Gentleman has reductions and allowing a settlement that is closely more background knowledge of that than I have, and aligned to needs. Nine other single-purpose fire authorities he will know that the Government currently make payments are experiencing the same size percentage reduction as to Cleveland and other fire and rescue authorities in Cleveland. However, I want the hon. Gentleman clearly recognition of the costs additional to the cost of meeting to understand that Cleveland has received the largest their local responsibilities, in order to maintain their amount of grant per head among all fire and rescue “new dimension” equipment and the use of the Firelink authorities—£36 per head in 2011-12. I asked officials radio system. Next year, we will pay Cleveland a grant what would be a comparable authority in terms of size of just over £100,000 in respect of Firelink and some and complexity of risk. They suggested that Cheshire £69,000 in respect of “new dimension” equipment. We would be such an authority; it has many high-risk sites need to develop future funding arrangements to make along the Mersey valley and is approximately of equivalent sure national resilience is maintained, but in the meantime size. Cheshire’s amount of grant per head is £18, half we will continue to fund the good work that is being done. the amount per head allocated to fire and rescue services There are a number of major risks within Cleveland in Cleveland. I therefore hope the hon. Gentleman and, as with all fire and rescue authorities, Cleveland understands that the formula reflects factors such as can rely on the availability of national resilience assets deprivation, population density and the presence of in planning and responding to a significant incident in high-risk sites. Thus, Cleveland receives greater funding its area. The hon. Gentleman did not specifically mention because it has a large number of control of major the fire control project, but Cleveland is the lead authority accident hazards—or COMAH—sites, a low council on that, and I want to assure him that the Department tax base and problems of deprivation and unemployment, is open for consultation responses until 8 April this to which the hon. Gentleman drew attention. I want to year. I am sure that Cleveland, as the lead authority, take this opportunity to assure him that central Government will be working with partners to come forward with are continuing their investment in Cleveland’s fire and proposals for alternatives, now that the fire control rescue services. project has ended. Nationally, capital grant funding for the fire service The way in which the resources available to Cleveland has increased from £45 million to £70 million in the are used is a local matter to be determined by individual coming year. That is in recognition of the need for fire authorities, and it is not appropriate for me to comment and rescue authorities to maintain their investment in on them, but I shall discuss one aspect that the hon. capital assets, and it provides the potential for making Gentleman mentioned, which relates to fire safety. I efficiency savings at a time when resource budgets are understand that in the past five years Cleveland has had under greater pressure. 16 fire deaths, with an average of three a year. Obviously that is three a year too many, but the level is low Mr Wright: I am grateful to the Minister for mentioning compared with the rest of England and I am sure that capital. My understanding is that Cleveland fire authority’s the good work that the fire and rescue service has been private finance initiative bid has been rejected, with no doing has been a major contributor to that. When it suitable replacement being put in place. Will the Minister decides its spending pattern over the next two years and advise me on how the authority can best put itself during the comprehensive spending review period, I forward for capital schemes, in order to provide efficiencies hope that it will very much have in mind the fact that its in the long run? good work through the Fire Kills campaign and other programmes provides both it and the Government with Andrew Stunell: I will do that shortly, if I may. First, value for money. I hope that it will continue to prioritise let me put it on the record that in 2011-12 Cleveland will that work. benefit from £1,012,000 in capital grant funding, which It has been suggested to me that I need not take as represents a funding increase of about 40% on the long in responding to this debate as I did on the earlier previous year. The capital allocation to Cleveland will one, so I shall conclude by saying that although I 679 Cleveland Fire Authority11 FEBRUARY 2011 Cleveland Fire Authority 680

[Andrew Stunell] that our vital public services are properly funded and properly run, and that they deliver a safe environment cannot speculate on funding beyond 2012-13 for Cleveland for all our citizens. or for anywhere else, it is clear that the fire and rescue Question put and agreed to. service will be required to deliver increased efficiency and reform. It will be for individual fire and rescue authorities to plan and decide how to do that. I wish to assure the hon. Gentleman that the coalition 2.57 pm Government remain completely committed to ensuring House adjourned. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS Written Ministerial EDUCATION

Statements School Capital

Friday 11 February 2011 The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): Mr Justice Holman has today handed down his judgment on the judicial review brought against me by Luton borough council and city council; Waltham COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Forest London borough council; Newham London borough council; Kent county council; and Sandwell Metropolitan borough council, following my decision in July 2010 to cancel Building Schools for the Future projects in their Local Authority Publicity areas. The judge said that he was “absolutely clear that the decision is not open to legal challenge The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant on a discrete ground of irrationality, however that argument is Shapps): Last year I consulted local government and developed or put”; other interested parties on a proposed new code of and he agreed that nothing which the Department for recommended practice on local authority publicity. On Education or Partnerships for Schools had done in 27 January the Communities and Local Government respect of these local authorities went Select Committee issued a report on the proposals. “so far as to create a substantive legitimate expectation that any Having now carefully considered the responses received given project would definitely proceed”. from the consultation and the Select Committee’s report, I am today laying before Parliament a draft “Code of These were the substantive points in this case and I Recommended Practice on Local Authority Publicity”. am delighted that the judge has ruled in my favour. If Parliament approves the draft, the Secretary of State There were further, procedural, grounds on which the will issue the code which will replace, in relation to claimants made their case, in particular on a duty to English local authorities and certain other bodies, the consult; and on the duty to have due regard to equalities existing code of practice. duties. The new code sets out the principles for local authority I acknowledge that, on these procedural grounds, the publicity. It makes clear that principal councils should judge has ruled in favour of the claimants. In essence, not publish newspapers more frequently than quarterly his view is that my consultation with 14 local authorities and that such publications should only include material (in relation to 32 sample schools) and a further 119 individual directly related to local services. It provides for a more academy projects on their particular circumstances, did flexible regime for parish councils given parish newsletters not go far enough and that I should have included the are not in competition with local newspapers. six claimant authorities in my consultation. And he The new code also makes clear that councils should judges that I should have had rigorous regard to equalities not spend taxpayers’ money to lobby Government through considerations in reaching my decision. private sector lobbyists or other forms of publicity. The judge has not ordered a reinstatement of funding I have also placed a copy of the Government’s response for any BSF project. Nor has he ordered me to pay to the consultation and the Select Committee’s report in compensation to any of the claimants. Instead, he has the Library of the House. concluded that I “must now, after giving each of them a reasonable opportunity to make representations, reconsider [my] decision in so far as it affects the claimants and each of the projects in relation to which they have claimed, with an open mind, paying due regard to any CABINET OFFICE representations they may make, and rigorously discharging [my] equalities duties”. I am happy to do so. He has made clear that provided I discharge my duties in this way, Government Response to the House of Lords Constitution Committee’s Report (Parliamentary Voting “the final decision on any given school or project still rests with [me]”; System and Constituencies Bill) and that I “may save all, some, a few, or none”. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark He concluded by saying that Harper): The House of Lords Constitution Committee published its report on the Parliamentary Voting System “no one should gain false hope from this decision”. and Constituencies Bill on 11 November 2010, immediately The judge has made clear that any other local authority, prior to Committee stage in this House. outside of the claimant group, would be far too late to I am pleased to inform the House that I have today apply for a separate judicial review on this matter. laid before Parliament the Government’s response to My Department will shortly make contact with the the Committee’s report (Cm 8016). Copies are available claimant local authorities to set out a process through in the Vote Office and Printed Paper Office. which they can make their representations to me. 21WS Written Ministerial Statements11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS The Commission stressed that the three objectives it had identified in its communication—food security, sustainable management of resources and territorial Forestry Commission England balance—were interlinked and that a green pillar 1 was (2011-12 Asset Sales Programme) necessary in order to achieve EU-wide environmental outcomes from agriculture. The Commission also responded to widespread concerns about CAP simplification, noting The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and that an ad hoc expert group had been established, and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): As in previous would act as a filter for CAP reform proposals. CAP years, the selection criteria for land in the Forestry debate would continue at the February Council with a Commission England’s forthcoming assets sales programme discussion of the Commission’s third objective for CAP were published on 27 January. In the light of the reform, territorial balance. Government commitment to increase protection for access and public benefit in our woodlands, the criteria The first item under any other business was the UK for these sales will be reviewed so that protections presentation of the foresight report, published by the are significantly strengthened following the inadequate chef scientific adviser, on the future of food and farming. measures that were applied to sales under the previous The UK stressed that the report was an important lens Administration. Pending this review, no individual through which to study the Commission’s CAP reform woodland site will be put on the market. proposals. The UK also noted that an event would be organised in Brussels to disseminate and discuss the report’s findings. Agriculture and Fisheries Council (24 January) Belgium, with the support of Ireland, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Austria, Slovenia, Portugal, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Finland, Romania, Cyprus, Spain, Malta and Hungary, Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): My right hon. rehearsed its concerns about a crisis in the pigmeat Friend the Minister of State for Agriculture and Food sector, calling once more for the introduction of private represented the United Kingdom at the Agriculture and storage aid (PSA), and the creation of a high-level Fisheries Council in Brussels on 24 January. group. Taking a more accommodating line than previously, The presidency presented its work programme the Commission agreed to open PSA but remained highlighting its priorities as CAP reform, the dairy file, reluctant to raise expectations in the sector by establishing the quality package, and reaching agreement on the a high-level group. It would continue with plans for 1,100 pages of Lisbon alignment legislation. It intended discussion in the enlarged advisory group, urging the to complete the evaluation of the EU animal welfare presidency to discuss the group’s findings at SCA in policy, and make progress on cloning. It would also April, with a view to recommending an appropriate make efforts to reach a binding agreement on forests at policy response to the Commission in advance of its the Oslo Ministerial at the back end of its presidency. adopting CAP reform proposals. The debate on CFP reform would be a further central The Commission gave a brief tour of the situation on feature. international markets. It noted on the DDA negotiations The Commission presented its communication on the that there was a positive mood in WTO circles for health of honey bees outlining the key issues and the attempting once more to conclude the round. The main actions that the Commission intended to take to Commission also put forward a number of suggestions address them. Member states supported the communication for addressing price volatility in the context of the and called for further evidence on the possible causes of French presidency of the G20. Instruments were needed the increased bee mortalities. The UK welcomed the to address price volatility, as experienced showed that work, and drew attention to the action being taken in prices remained volatile even where there was no shortage the UK to address bee health problems, and drew of physical stocks. The Commission wanted more attention to recent evidence on possible involvement of transparency in terms of market data, improved quality neonicotinoid insecticides. of data, and a forum for discussion. It wanted to have The debate on CAP reform was prepared on the basis more reliability about the availability of emergency of a presidency questionnaire exploring links to the stocks, and wanted to press for improved international delivery of environmental public goods, green growth governance of crises and increased investment in agricultural and innovation, and agriculture’s contribution to addressing research. A communication on commodities, dealing climate security concerns. All member states agreed with some of the issues, would be adopted by the with the Commission that that the objective was sound Commission in the coming days. but most delegations wished to examine the relative France noted that a number of the issues would be contribution of the two CAP pillars to the Commission’s picked up at the G20 Agriculture Ministers meeting objective. A number suggested that pursuing green outcomes 22-23 June, which would lead to the adoption of an through pillar 1, either in the form of a top-up payments action plan at the Cannes Ministerial at the end of the for areas with natural handicaps or by greening, was French presidency. inadvisable and would result in administrative burdens. The UK called for additional resources for pillar 2, Germany provided an update on the dioxin situation. which could be better targeted at environmental objectives It estimated that 2,256 tonnes of feed fat had been than pillar 1. Others, such as France, were more open to contaminated, and said that 589 holdings were currently the proposal of a green pillar 1, provided it was mandatory under restriction. Germany also presented its 10-point and simple. A large number of member states insisted action plan to improve consumer protection in the that the Commission ensure that its proposals delivered animal feed chain, and called for certain actions to be on the CAP simplification agenda. considered at EU level. 23WS Written Ministerial Statements11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS

The Commission clarified that the current system The second session focused on the issue of information had worked and that any further measures should remain policy in countering terrorism. The Poles were particularly proportionate. The measures under consideration were keen to gather expertise from other states in advance of the compulsory approval of establishments manufacturing, the Euro 2012 football championships which they will treating and marketing fats, the strict separation of jointly host with Ukraine—in particular how to ensure production streams, reinforced dioxin monitoring, and that the accurate messages get to citizens rapidly. I offered the extension of reporting obligations to private laboratories. to work closely with Poland noting that the championship The Commission rejected the positive list and the mandatory will take place only a month before the London Olympics. liability insurance actions proposed by Germany. Member I also held separate bilateral meetings with other states felt that there were lessons to be learnt from the heads of delegations. incident and supported the Commission’s proposed The next meeting of the G6 is expected to be held in approach. Spain in June. Latvia requested EU co-financing to support the cleansing and disinfection of livestock vehicles returning from the Russian Federation, to prevent the introduction of African swine fever. Most member states supported WORK AND PENSIONS the request made. The Commission would consider different options to provide support and these would be discussed further at expert level. Uprating Private Sector Occupational Pensions (Revised Impact Assessment) HOME DEPARTMENT The Minister of State, Department for Work and G6 Meeting (Krakow) Pensions (Steve Webb): Today, the Government will publish an updated version of their impact assessment for the move to the consumer prices index (CPI) for The Secretary of State for the Home Department uprating private sector occupational pensions. A further (Mrs ): The informal G6 group of Ministers update is anticipated when the Government respond to of the Interior from the UK, France, Germany, Spain, the consultation on this issue. Italy, and Poland held their most recent meeting in Krakow, Poland on 3-4 February 2011. The meeting On 8 July, Government announced the move to using had been postponed from September 2010. The meeting the CPI as the basis for the statutory minimum uprating was chaired by the Polish Minister for the Interior, Jerzy of occupational pensions. On 8 December, the Department Miller. published a consultation document on the impact of using the CPI for revaluation and indexation of private The meeting was divided into two working sessions sector occupational pensions, and an initial impact over one day, both of which were attended by G6 assessment was published to accompany the consultation Ministers of the Interior (I represented the UK; Thomas document. de Maizière—Germany; Brice Hortefeux—France; Roberto Maroni—Italy), with the additional guest attendance of Following publication, an error in the calculations the US Attorney-General, Eric Holder and the US has been identified. Additionally the Regulatory Deputy Secretary for Homeland Security, Jane Lute. Policy Committee (RPC) has reviewed the calculations Spain was represented by the Minister of State for underpinning the impact assessment. Acting on the Security, Antonio Camacho Vizcaíno. feedback from the RPC, the Government have made a change to the method used to calculate the net present The first working session was on cyberspace security. value (the value expressed in today’s money) of the Ministers considered the need to inform the public on reductions to scheme liabilities. The version to be published how to keep safe in cyberspace. I noted that the Government later today takes account of these two changes. had allocated £650 million to fund national cyber-security, including £63 million on cybercrime and that the The Government are currently undertaking research Government would be publishing a cyber-security strategy into private pension schemes rules and the likely reaction in the spring. The approach of the UK was for more of employers to the decision to use the CPI which will effective self-regulation rather than formal regulation. extend our evidence base for calculating the impact on To this end, there was frequent consultation between scheme liabilities. The outcome of this analysis will Government and internet security providers. The US feature in the next edition of the impact assessment. Attorney-General noted that his Government had recently A copy of the revised impact assessment will be issued a cyberspace policy review and created an office placed in the Libraries of both Houses, and is available for cyber-security co-ordination. There were discussions on the Department’s website at: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/ around data retention and protection. docs/cpi-private-pensions-consultation-ia.pdf

443W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 444W

Base, which is financed as part of the five yearly Written Answers to determinations by the Office of Rail Regulation that establishes the grant paid to Network Rail by the Questions Department. Railways: Franchising Friday 11 February 2011 Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he plans to take to encourage rail TRANSPORT freight under future franchise obligations. [35995] Bus Lanes Mrs Villiers: There are no plans to introduce a measure to encourage rail freight in passenger franchise obligations. Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for However, the Department will take freight into full Transport if he will take steps to instruct or encourage account in franchise specification, and in any reforms local authorities to (a) allow taxis, motorcycles and to Network Rail and operator relationships that may be electrically-powered vehicles into bus lanes and (b) implemented as a result of Sir Roy McNulty’s remove non-contra-flow bus lane restrictions at non- recommendations on value for money. peak times. [38697] Railways: Lowestoft Norman Baker [holding answer 8 February 2011]: Bus lanes are provided to give buses priority at times of Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for congestion. It is for local highway authorities to determine Transport (1) whether his Department has made an which, if any, other classes of vehicle may be allowed to assessment of the likely economic effects on Lowestoft use bus lanes in their area. of the removal of direct train services from Lowestoft Decisions on bus lane operating hours are also for the to London; [33161] local highway authority, taking into account local factors (2) whether he has assessed the merits of including a such as bus timetable frequency and patterns of traffic requirement to return to direct services from Lowestoft congestion. Many bus lanes operate at peak hours only, to London in discussions on the renewal of the Great and outside these hours, any vehicle can use the lane. Anglia rail franchise. [33162] Motor Vehicles: Licensing Mrs Villiers: Direct services between London and Lowestoft ceased operation in December 2010. This Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for was part of a wider package of service changes which Transport what assessment he has made of the merits provided more seats across the Anglia network as a of requiring vehicle owners to display proof of whole. The analysis carried out by the Department for insurance on the windscreen of their vehicles; and if he Transport focused on the financial impact across the will make a statement. [37682] whole franchise. It did not carry out a specific analysis of the impact on Lowestoft. Mike Penning: A system of requiring vehicles to The Department for Transport does not intend to display evidence that a vehicle is insured by means of a include a specific provision about through services between windscreen disc has been considered. However, UK law Lowestoft and London in the new long-term Greater requires the driver to be insured, rather than the vehicle; Anglia franchise. Bidders will, however, be encouraged a disc would not guarantee that the person behind the to develop timetable proposals which maximise the wheel was insured to drive. In addition, the disc would value of the franchise and the benefit for passengers. It only be evidence that somebody had insurance cover for is possible that these might include new journey the use of the vehicle at the time when the disc was opportunities should there be a case for doing so. issued and would not demonstrate whether insurance was currently valid. Rescue Services: Helicopters Network Rail: Electrification Albert Owen: To ask the Secretary of State for Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what potential procurement options are now Transport what steps his Department is taking to in place for search and rescue helicopters in the UK; ensure that Network Rail completes the planned whether these options include maintaining continuity electrification of rail lines between Manchester, of search and rescue services in the short and Liverpool, Preston and Blackpool; and what estimate mid-term; and if he will make a statement. [39874] he has made of the likely (a) cost to the public purse and (b) completion date of the project. [37612] Mike Penning: I refer the hon. Member to the written statement made to the House by the Secretary of State Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport and the for Transport on 8 February 2010, Official Report, Office of Rail Regulation meet Network Rail formally column 7WS. The Department for Transport and the every month to discuss the progress of the electrification Ministry of Defence will now consider the potential programme. I expect that the first electric trains will procurement options to meet future requirements for start running in 2013 and the project will be completed search and rescue helicopters in the United Kingdom by 2016 at an estimated cost of up to £300 million. This and we will make an announcement once a way forward will be funded using the Network Rail Regulated Asset has been agreed. 445W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 446W

Rolling Stock: North West All elements of this proposal would deliver a fully integrated national network that can be more resilient Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for and more capable of managing a major incident with Transport what plans his Department has to make (a) the flexibility to match workforce to workload. This will new and (b) additional rolling stock available to at the same time reduce long term running costs and operate on electrified rail lines between Manchester, capital expenditure and generate a total saving, in net Liverpool, Preston and Blackpool. [37613] present value terms, of some £120 million over 25 years.

Mrs Villiers: It is currently planned that the rail Sea Rescue: Northern Ireland industry will lead on the procurement of new trains for Manchester airport to Preston and Scotland services Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for due to operate from December 2013 and that the remainder Transport what recent discussions he has had with the of electrified services are expected to be operated by (a) Office of First and Deputy First Minister, (b) cascaded electric trains freed up as a result of the Northern Ireland Coastguard and (c) Irish Coast Thameslink project. Guard on the HM Coastguard Proposals for Modernisation consultation. [39498] Sea Rescue: Information and Communications Technology Mike Penning: I am to visit staff at the Belfast Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre on 17 February 2011 to Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for discuss the HM Coastguard proposals for modernising Transport what estimate he has made of the cost to the the Coastguard. I will be meeting both the First and public purse of changing information technology Deputy First Ministers on the same day. infrastructure as part of the proposed reorganisation of The Maritime and Coastguard Agency are arranging coastal emergency services. [39486] a briefing session through the Office of the First and Deputy First Ministers for Members of the Northern Mike Penning: The proposal to reorganise HM Ireland Assembly.In addition, they have regular discussions Coastguard is not based on implementing new technology. with the Director of the Irish Coastguard on coastguard The technology element of this programme uses the issues including on the proposals for modernisation. latest version of existing technology currently installed in the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centres. It seeks Shipping: Inspections to fully exploit functionality that is currently not used. The total capital cost of the rationalised HM Coastguard Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for infrastructure over the four-year period (2011-12 to Transport how many (a) UK-registered ships and (b) 2014-15) and 25 years is £14 million and £74 million foreign flagged ships were inspected by the Maritime respectively. Of these figures the information technology and Coastguard Agency in each of the last 12 months; infrastructure element is £2.5 million over the four-year what the country of registration was of each such period (2011-12 to 2014-15) and £12.6 million over foreign-flagged ship; at what location each such 25 years. These figures include capital spend of £0.65 million inspection took place; and whether prior notice of over the four-year period (2011-12 to 2014-15) and inspection was given in each instance. [31951] £3.5 million over 25 years which is not directly delivering, but necessary for, the changes as outlined in the document Mike Penning: [holding answer 20 December 2010]: ‘Protecting our Seas and Shores in the 21st Century’. During the last 12 months the total number of UK The remaining capital costs relate to the reconfiguring registered ships inspected was 7,103 and the total number of the HM Coastguard communications infrastructure of foreign flagged ships was 2,324. and estate. Prior notice is not normally given for an inspection. A copy of the consultation document is available However, in the case of UK registered vessels, prior both in the Libraries of the House and on the Maritime notice is given if an inspection is to be carried out in and Coastguard Agency website at: conjunction with a survey. However the number of such www.mcga.gov.uk cases is not held. In view of the quantity of data involved and the Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for detailed information requested, I have asked it to be Transport whether he has undertaken a cost-benefit placed in the Libraries of the both Houses. analysis in respect of the change of information technology infrastructure as part of the proposed Unmanned Air Vehicles reorganisation of coastal emergency services. [39487] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning: The proposal to reorganise HM Transport what regulations apply to pilots remotely Coastguard is not based on implementing new technology. flying unmanned aircraft in UK airspace that is under The technology element of this programme uses the the jurisdiction of the Civil Aviation Authority from latest version of existing technology currently installed within a foreign nation. [37636] in the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centres. It seeks to fully exploit functionality that is currently not used. Mrs Villiers: The regulations applicable to the operation The cost/benefit of the refresh, together with other of unmanned aircraft in UK airspace are explained in factors, was taken into account in the efficiency and the Civil Aviation Authority’s publication CAP 722: value for money assessment set out at pages 37 and Unmanned Aircraft System Operations in UK Airspace— 38 of the consultation document “Protecting our Seas Guidance. This can be downloaded from: and Shores in the 21st Century”. www.caa.co.uk 447W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 448W

EDUCATION Army Departmental Libraries

Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for how many (a) certified and (b) chartered librarians his Defence what the establishment and structure of the Department and its predecessors have employed in infantry is; and what its establishment will be after the each year since 2000. [37648] implementation of the outcome of the strategic defence Tim Loughton: Information on librarians who hold and security review. [40248] Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals (CILIP) approved academic qualifications, Nick Harvey: The total liability for all infantry personnel including certified and chartered status, in the Department is 24,631. and its predecessors is set out in the following table: The regiments that make up the infantry are as Temporary agency follows: Permanent contract

2002-03 17 1 Division Unit 2003-04 18 3 Guards 1 Grenadier Guards 2004-05 18 1 1 Coldstream Guards 2005-06 21 7 1 SCOTS Guards 2006-07 19 4 2007-08 15 3 1 Irish Guards 2008-09 8 2 1 Welsh Guards 2009-10 8 0 2010-11 8 0 SCOTS 1 SCOTS Information before 2002-03 is not available and can 2 SCOTS be obtained only at disproportionate cost. 3 SCOTS 4 SCOTS Departmental Responsibilities 5 SCOTS Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what (a) directorates and (b) teams there Queens 1 Princess of Wales Royal Regiment are in his Department; what the responsibility of each 2 Princess of Wales Royal Regiment is for (i) policy formation and (ii) policy delivery; and 1 Royal Regt Fusiliers how many people at each payband work in each team. 2 Royal Regt Fusiliers [38973] 1 Royal Anglian Tim Loughton: The information on the Department’s 2 Royal Anglian structure, responsibilities and policy objectives can be found on its website: Kings 1 LANCS http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/departmental information/ 2 LANCS transparency/b0065313/discloure-of-scs-posts-and-salarv- information/ 1 YORKS 2 YORKS 3 YORKS DEFENCE Armed Forces: Education Prince of Wales 1 Mercian Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for 2 Mercian Defence pursuant to the answer of 4 February 2011, 3 Mercian Official Report, column 980W, on armed forces: 1 Royal Welsh education, what figures have been provided to his Department by (a) the Department for Education and 2 Royal Welsh (b) the Scottish Executive on the likely capacity to receive children of returning service personnel of RIFLES 1 RIFLES schools situated in the vicinity of each base considered 2 RIFLES for the stationing of such personnel to be withdrawn 3 RIFLES from Germany; and if he will publish the data he has 4 RIFLES received. [40450] 5 RIFLES Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence has not received any figures on the likely capacity of schools situated in Royal Irish 1 Royal Irish the vicinity of each base considered for the stationing of armed forces personnel to be withdrawn from Germany, to receive children of returning troops. PARA 1 PARA No basing decisions have yet been made, but we will 2 PARA consult fully with the relevant authorities as our plans 3 PARA mature. 449W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 450W

In addition to the battalions shown above, there are Royal Navy in the Caribbean in each of the last five three incremental guards companies whose primary years. [40260] role is public duties but which can also be used to augment the other guards battalions as required: Nick Harvey: The primary purposes of the Royal Navy’s deployment to the Caribbean (Atlantic Patrol Nijmegen Coy Grenadier Guards Task (North)) are the promotion of UK interests in the 7 Coy Coldstream Guards region and the provision of security to UK Overseas F Coy SCOTS Guards Territories, including support to humanitarian operations The total liability over the next four years is still and disaster relief. Counter-narcotic activities are carried subject to ongoing work implementing the strategic out as operational commitments and resources allow defence and security review. and we will continue to provide this capability through the use of a Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) vessel enhanced Caribbean: Navy with an additional naval party, a helicopter and law enforcement detachment. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for The information requested regarding seizures of narcotics Defence if he will list all seizures of narcotics by the is provided in the following table:

Estimated value Month Unit Quantity (£ million)

2006 February HMS Southampton/RFA Grey Rover 2.223 tonnes cocaine. Further 2 tonnes assessed 169 jettisoned by the smugglers September RFA Wave Ruler 2.5 tonnes cocaine 100 October RFA Wave Ruler 2.789 tonnes cocaine 112 November RFA Wave Ruler 4.0 tonnes cocaine 160 November RFA Wave Ruler 2.04 tonnes cocaine 82

2007 May HMS Ocean 12 bales cocaine — June HMS Ocean 328 kg cocaine; 20 kg heroin 14 October HMS Portland/RFA Wave Knight 3.3 tonnes (assessed) cocaine (jettisoned by 132 smugglers) December RFA Largs Bay 1.125 tonnes cocaine 45

2008 June HMS Iron Duke 1.125 tonnes cocaine 45 July HMS Iron Duke 1.2 tonnes (assessed) cocaine (jettisoned by 48 smugglers) July HMS Iron Duke 2,477 coca field plants sighted from helicopter n/a survey

2009 July HMS Iron Duke/US Coastguard 0.75 tonne cocaine 33 August HMS Iron Duke/US Coastguard 150 kg (assessed) cocaine (jettisoned by smugglers) 6 September HMS Iron Duke 5.5 tonnes cocaine 240

2010 June HMS Manchester/Royal Montserrat 12 bales of illicit substance assessed to be 11.5 Police (RMP) marijuana estimated to weigh 500 lbs

October HMS Manchester 8 bales cocaine jettisoned by smugglers (2 at 30 kg 12 each retrieved, 6 sank). Estimated total of 240 kg 1 Assessed by RMP. Notes: 1. Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) estimates, as at June 2009, of UK street values have been applied to all seizures, unless stated otherwise. 2. Where only the number of bales is known/estimated but not their weight, no street value can be estimated retrospectively.

Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Nick Harvey: The decision not to send a destroyer or Defence (1) what estimate he has made of the likely frigate to the Caribbean region during 2011 was taken level of savings to his Department following the on the basis of available capability and not as a savings withdrawal of the Royal Navy from anti-narcotic and measure. The ship that had been identified for this task disaster relief work in the Caribbean; [40261] will be redeployed elsewhere and will, therefore, continue to incur operational costs. The financial implications (2) what recent discussions he has had with are still being assessed. representatives of Caribbean nations on the withdrawal of the Royal Navy from anti-narcotic and disaster relief For 2011, it is assessed that a destroyer or frigate is work in that region; [40262] not required for the Atlantic Patrol Task (North) and that a Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship, enhanced with a (3) whether he expects any further reductions in naval party, law enforcement detachment and helicopter Royal Navy commitments in the next 12 months. during the core hurricane season, has the necessary [40264] capabilities to provide support to UK Overseas Territories 451W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 452W in the Caribbean region. This will provide a permanent Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for presence, able to respond to the full range of foreseeable Defence what disaster relief work was carried out by contingencies, including disaster relief, and to contribute the Royal Navy in the Caribbean in the last five years. to counter narcotics where spare capacity allows. I am [40263] confident that this will enable the UK to meet its commitment to the region and, as such, no discussions Nick Harvey: The primary purposes of the Royal with representatives of Caribbean nations are planned. Navy’s deployment to the Caribbean (Atlantic Patrol Task (North)) are the promotion of UK interests in the We expect that the Royal Navy will continue to meet region and the provision of security to UK Overseas commitments in priority regions such as the north and Territories, including support to humanitarian operations south Atlantic, the Indian ocean, as well as in home and disaster relief. We will continue to provide support waters. Maritime commitments are regularly reviewed to disaster relief through the presence of a Royal Fleet and adjusted where necessary to reflect changing Auxiliary (RFA) vessel. requirements. The information requested is provided in the following table:

Month Unit Location

2006 August HMS Iron Duke/RFA Wave Ruler Turks and Caicos Islands. Humanitarian disaster relief contingency patrol in the wake of Tropical Storm Chris. August HMS Iron Duke/RFA Wave Ruler Cayman Islands. Humanitarian disaster relief contingency patrol in the wake of Category 1 Hurricane Ernesto. September HMS Iron Duke Bermuda. Humanitarian disaster relief contingency patrol in the wake of Hurricane Florence.

2007 August RFA Wave Ruler Montserrat and Cayman Islands. Humanitarian disaster relief contingency patrol in the wake of Hurricane Dean. August HMS Portland/RFA Wave Ruler Belize. Humanitarian disaster relief operation ashore in Belize in wake of Hurricane Dean. September HMS Portland Barbados. Humanitarian disaster relief contingency patrol in the wake of Hurricane Felix. November RFA Wave Knight Dominican Republic. Humanitarian disaster relief operations in the wake of Tropical Storm Noel.

2008 August RFA Wave Ruler Cayman Island. Humanitarian disaster relief operation ashore in the wake of Hurricane Gustav. September RFA Wave Ruler Turks and Caicos Islands. Humanitarian disaster relief operation ashore in the wake of Hurricane Ike. October RFA Wave Ruler British Virgin Islands, Anguilla and Montserrat. Humanitarian disaster relief operation ashore in the wake of Hurricane Omar. November RFA Wave Ruler Cayman Brae and Little Cayman. Humanitarian disaster relief operation ashore in the wake of Hurricane Paloma.

2010 February/March RFA Largs Bay Haiti. Humanitarian disaster relief operation and support to World Food Programme and UN operations ashore in wake of earthquake. August HMS Manchester Eastern Caribbean. Humanitarian disaster relief contingency patrol in wake of Hurricane Earl. September RFA Wave Ruler Tortola, British Virgin Islands. Humanitarian disaster relief reassurance visit. Working party ashore to assist with clearance of mudslides. September HMS Manchester Bermuda. Aerial survey damage assessment in the wake of Hurricane Igor. November HMS Manchester/RFA Wave Ruler St Lucia. Humanitarian disaster relief operations ashore in the wake of Hurricane Tomas. November HMS Manchester/RFA Wave Ruler Turks and Caicos Islands. Humanitarian disaster relief contingency patrol in the wake of Hurricane Tomas. November RFA Wave Ruler Haiti. In support of US Forces conducting humanitarian disaster relief operations.

Defence: Procurement national security capabilities; which skills and capabilities are most vulnerable and what might be done to protect Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence them. The outcomes of the current consultation process what account he takes of sustaining skills and on the Green Paper will be taken forward in to a White capabilities in the UK defence industry in determining Paper which will be published later this year. his policy on equipment procurement. [39312] Departmental Procurement Nick Harvey: The Government published a Green Paper in December 2010 on “Equipment, Support and : To ask the Secretary of State for Technology for UK Defence and Security: a Consultation Defence whether all new contracts his Department has Paper”. The Green Paper asked for views on the ways in tendered over £10,000 have been published with which the Government can ensure that the UK creates associated tender documents on the Contracts Finder and retains the skills necessary to support essential website since its inception. [39218] 453W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 454W

Nick Harvey: As at 31 January 2011, the Ministry of co-operation in the areas of operations, equipment, and Defence (MOD) had published nine tenders and capabilities. We have agreed a set of common objectives 10 contracts. Publication of a further 63 tenders and for this calendar year. 72 contracts has been delayed by system issues between We will build on the existing close links between our the contracts finder (the Efficiency Reform Group (ERG) armed forces in the coming months with a number of Transparency web portal) and the MOD’s information bilateral exercises with France aimed at increasing the networks. levels of interoperability between our armed forces. By agreement with the ERG, the MOD is currently not publishing tenders and contracts relating to: Warlike Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for Stores (as defined under article 346 of the treaty of the Defence whether any other nations apart from France functioning of the European Union), and information and the UK may be involved in the Franco-British joint exempt under section 23 of FOI Act (Intelligence Agency brigade announced in November 2010; and on what or Special Forces). basis. [39524] EU Defence Policy Dr Fox [holding answer 10 February 2011]: We confirmed Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for at last year’s bilateral summit that we would develop a Defence what his policy is on the proposal for a team of Combined Joint Expeditionary Force with France and wise men on European defence co-operation not a Brigade. It will foster closer links between our considered by EU Defence Ministers in December armed forces and improve their ability to deploy together 2010; and if he will make a statement. [39869] on operations in the future. It will not involve standing forces. We currently have no plans to involve other Nick Harvey: There has been no decision yet to nations in this initiative. appoint a team of wise men. As part of the wider analysis of pooling and sharing of military capabilities Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for in Europe, the European Defence Agency has been Defence (1) what progress has been achieved by the asked to examine proposals to take this initiative forward Senior Level Group on Franco-British defence and to consider the use of such a team. We will study co-operation to date; and if he will make a statement; the business case for the team in due course. We are [39716] clear that work done in the EU must be co-ordinated (2) on how many occasions the Senior Level Group with work under way in NATO and elsewhere. on Franco-British defence co-operation has met. European Defence Agency [39717]

Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Fox [holding answer 10 February 2011]: Since the Defence what criteria he plans to use to assess the UK-France summit last November there have been performance of the European Defence Agency against regular bilateral discussions on defence and security (a) its objectives and (b) future UK membership of co-operation with France including between Defence the agency. [39718] Ministers, the National Security Advisor, the Chief of Mr Gerald Howarth [holding answer 10 February Defence Staff, and the Vice Chief of Defence Staff and 2011]: We will assess whether the European Defence their counterparts. The Senior Level Group will meet Agency (EDA) is supporting participating member states formally later in the year to review progress on co-operation by delivering outputs to develop military capability. and to prepare the defence and security elements of this Any future UK decision regarding our membership of year’s annual bilateral summit. the EDA will be based on our national priorities and interests, including whether we are achieving value for Low Flying: Compensation money for the UK taxpayer through our participation. France: Military Alliances Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many payments of compensation in Mr Kennedy: To ask the Secretary of State for respect of low flying have been made to recipients in Defence what steps his Department has taken to (a) Wales, (b) England and (c) Scotland in each of implement the Defence and Security Co-operation the last three years; and what the monetary value of treaty since the UK-France summit of 2 November each such payment was. [39950] 2010; and if he will make a statement. [37858] Nick Harvey: The number of payments of compensation Dr Fox: The Ministry of Defence has taken a number (including legal costs) made in respect of military low of early steps to implement the Defence and Security flying aircraft to claimants in Wales, England and Scotland Co-operation treaty. in each of the last three financial years is shown in the There have been regular bilateral discussions including following table, together with the total amount of between Defence Ministers, the National Security Advisor, compensation paid. I will write to the hon. Member the Chief of Defence Staff, and the Vice Chief of shortly giving details of the monetary value of each Defence Staff and their counterparts. We have discussed payment.

2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Number of claims Amount paid (£) Number of claims Amount paid (£) Number of claims Amount paid (£)

Wales 33 73,662.41 14 68,890.29 10 25,583.39 455W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 456W

2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Number of claims Amount paid (£) Number of claims Amount paid (£) Number of claims Amount paid (£)

England 73 211,287.92 99 812,626.46 78 397,301.09 Scotland 6 63,546.80 1 1,241.92 6 8,887.68

Military Bases The regiments that make up the Royal Cavalry and Royal Armoured Corps are as follows: Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Household Cavalry Regiment for Defence what organisational structure his Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment Department has put in place to undertake its review of Queens Dragoon Guards RAF bases. [39562] SCOTS Dragoon Guards Royal Dragoon Guards Nick Harvey: No new organisational structures have 9/12 Lancers been put in place. The work to address the range of Queens Royal Hussars issues affecting the Defence Estate following the strategic Kings Royal Hussars defence and security review is being carried out by Light Dragoons Ministry of Defence (MOD) civilian and service personnel Queens Royal Lancers across the Department. It is being undertaken under their normal responsibilities as part of the MOD’s Joint Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear Regiment annual planning round. 1 Royal Tank Regiment Armoured Squadron 2 Royal Tank Regiment Rescue Services The total liability over the next four years is still subject to ongoing work implementing the strategic defence and security review. Albert Owen: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what his most recent assessment if of the Unmanned Air Vehicles extent of future provision of search and rescue Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for helicopters at RAF bases; what plans he has for the Defence what permissions are required for unmanned future provision of such services at RAF bases; and if aerial vehicle flights by aircraft over 150kg in airspace he will make a statement. [39873] controlled by the Civil Aviation Authority. [37693] Nick Harvey: I refer the hon. Member to the written Mrs Villiers: I have been asked to reply. statement made the Secretary of State for Transport, The regulations applicable to the operation of unmanned my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and aircraft in UK airspace are explained in the Civil Aviation Weybridge (Mr Hammond) on 8 February 2010, Official Authority’s publication CAP 722: Unmanned Aircraft Report, columns 7-8WS. The Department for Transport System Operations in UK Airspace—Guidance. This and the Ministry of Defence will now consider the can be downloaded from: potential procurement options to meet future requirements for search and rescue helicopters in the United Kingdom www.caa.co.uk and we will make an announcement once a way forward has been agreed. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy: Natural Gas Defence how much funding from the public purse has been spent on the Joint Search and Rescue Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Harmonization project to date. [40344] and Climate Change what proportion of primary energy consumption in (a) England, (b) Scotland, (c) Nick Harvey: To date a total of circa £10 million has Northern Ireland and (d) Wales was accounted for by been spent on contracts in support of the Joint Search natural gas in the last year for which figures are and Rescue—Helicopter project by the Ministry of available. [39497] Defence and the Department for Transport. Charles Hendry: The Digest of UK Energy Statistics (DUKES), shows that in 2009 natural gas accounted Royal Armoured Corps for 39.4% of primary energy consumption in the UK. No breakdown of primary energy consumption is available Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for for the individual UK nations. Defence what the establishment and structure of the Fuel Oil Royal Armoured Corps is; and what its establishment will be after the implementation of the outcome of the Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for Strategic Defence and Security Review. [40250] Energy and Climate Change if he will bring forward proposals to protect consumers from anti-competitive Nick Harvey: The Household Cavalry and Royal practices in the heating oil industry. [39528] Armoured Corps personnel are grouped as one arm because they perform similar roles. The total liability Charles Hendry: The Government are sympathetic to for all Household Cavalry and Royal Armoured Corps the plight of many heating oil consumers who were hit personnel is 5,778. hard by high prices and supply issues this winter. 457W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 458W

I refer the hon. Member to the written ministerial funding the Commission has allocated for the statement I gave on 21 January 2011, Official Report, acquisition of new works of art for the House of column 55WS. I am keen that the reasons for the high Commons art collection in (a) 2010-11 and (b) heating oil prices and supply issues this winter are 2011-12; [39533] thoroughly investigated by an independent authority. I (2) what recent estimate the Commission has made have written to the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) on of the value of the House of Commons art collection. 19 January to ask it to bring forward its competition [39535] and consumer study into off-grid energy. I also asked the OFT if the study could explore longer term consumer John Thurso: In recent years, up to and including issues such as lifetime payback, consumer standards 2009-10, the annual allocation for acquisition of items for and labelling for alternative energy sources or supplies. the House of Commons Art Collection has been £100,000. I welcome the independent assessment of the off-grid The funding allocated in 2010-11 is £50,000. The planned market to be made by the OFT, and we look forward to allocation for 2011-12 is also £50,000. The latest valuation seeing its conclusions in advance of next winter so the of the works of art acquired between 1 April 2000 and lessons from this winter can be learned and any necessary 31 March 2010 is £1.47 million. No valuation exists for changes made. works of art acquired before April 2000. Renewable Energy: Heating WORK AND PENSIONS Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to Child Benefit publish further information on the technologies to be supported by the Renewable Heat Incentive scheme. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for [39427] Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 14 December 2010, Official Report, column 698W, on Gregory Barker: I am happy to confirm that we hope child benefit, whether he has now considered the full to publish details of the Renewable Heat Incentive next implications of the changes announced to child benefit month. to ensure that those entitled continue to receive Wind Power: Subsidies national insurance credits towards their state pension; and if he will make a statement. [39335] Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve Webb: We are continuing to consider the full Energy and Climate Change on what date the implications of the changes announced to child benefit Government first introduced subsidies to encourage to ensure that those entitled continue to receive national the development of wind power; and what estimate he insurance credits towards their state pension. has made of the total subsidy provided for wind power since that date. [38390] Cold Weather Payments: Dartford

Charles Hendry: The renewables obligation (RO) is Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for currently the Government’s main mechanism for Work and Pensions how many people in the weather incentivising large scale renewables deployment. Between station area covering Dartford constituency received its introduction in April 2002 and March 2010 it has cold weather payments in each of the last two years. provided approximately £2.2 billion of support (in 2010-11 [39042] prices) to 34.7 million megawatt hours (MWh) of wind power generation. Steve Webb: The available information is given in the The Offshore Wind Capital Grants Scheme announced following table. in 2001 by the DTI awarded capital grants totalling Estimated number of benefit units that received at least one cold weather £97 million from the Department (of which £36.95 million payment for weather stations linked to postcode districts in Dartford was disbursed) and a further £10 million from the New constituency Opportunities Fund in the years 2004-05 to 2009-10. Weather station 2009-10 2010-11 Further details are available in the National Audit Charlwood 45,700 46,500 Office’s report ‘Government Funding for Renewable Gravesend 118,700 119,400 Energy Technologies’, published in June 2010, which Notes: considered the Government’s direct support for renewable 1. The information provided is Management Information. Our preference is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/National Statistics but in this energy from 2000 to 2009: case we only have Management Information available. It is not quality assured http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/1011/ to the same extent as Official/National Statistics and there are some issues with renewable_energy.aspx the data, for example, figures given are estimates. Actuals are not available. Estimates for 2010-11 may be revised after the end of the cold weather payment No capital grants have been made for the development season, but will still be estimates not actuals. of onshore wind farms as this is an established renewable 2. A cold weather payment is made to an eligible customer when the average temperature has been recorded as, or is forecast to be, 0° C or below over seven technology. consecutive days at the weather station linked to the customer’s postcode. (When the temperature criterion is met, the weather station is said to trigger.) 3. Each of Charlwood and Gravesend weather stations is linked both to an area within Dartford constituency and also to an area outside Dartford constituency. HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Estimated numbers given are for the weather station as a whole, not for the part of Dartford constituency linked to the weather station. Art Works 4. Estimates of potential qualifiers for each weather station for 2010-11 were made at the beginning of the winter. Both Charlwood and Gravesend weather Gloria De Piero: To ask the hon. Member for stations have already triggered this winter, so the estimated number of benefit units that received at least one cold weather payment in 2010-11 will not change Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing during the rest of the winter. The estimates for 2010-11 may be revised once the the House of Commons Commission, (1) how much national out-turn for the winter is known. 459W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 460W

5. Cold weather payments are made to benefit units. A benefit unit can be a Employment: Scotland single person or a couple and can include children. 6. Some benefit units received more than one payment in a year. 7. Estimated numbers have been rounded to the nearest 100. Mr Gordon Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Sources: Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of 1. Postcode districts in the Dartford constituency: analysis of National Statistics Postcode Directory the likely change in employment rates in Scotland 2. Postcode district to weather station links: Department for Work and Pensions among those (a) aged 16 to 24 and (b) of all age records groups between (i) 2008 and 2013 and (ii) 2013 and 3. Records of triggers and estimates of potential qualifiers by weather station: Department for Work and Pensions records 2020; and whether he has had discussions with the Departmental Procurement Scottish Government on its forecasts for such groups. [39274] Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work : The Department does not produce and Pensions whether all new contracts his forecasts of employment. The Office for Budget Department has tendered over £10,000 have been Responsibility publishes forecasts of employment, the published with associated tender documents on the most recent being in the autumn statement, but these Contracts Finder website since its inception. [39223] are at United Kingdom level only, covering all age groups. Chris Grayling: DWP has only had access to Contracts There has therefore been no discussion between the Finder from the beginning of January 2011 and thus Department and the Scottish Government on the subject has a backlog of cases to load. We are urgently working of youth employment forecasts for Scotland. through the backlog and expecting to be fully up to date by March 2011. Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit: Osteoarthritis

Departmental Security Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people resident in Central Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Ayrshire constituency were awarded industrial injuries and Pensions which persons not employed by disablement benefit for osteoarthritis in the latest Government departments or agencies hold passes period for which figures are available. [39604] entitling them to enter his Department’s premises. [39259] Maria Miller: Osteoarthritis of the knee in coal miners, and osteoarthritis of the hip in farmers are both included Chris Grayling: Passes may be issued to those who are within the Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit scheme. required to make regular visits to specific Government We do not have information on the numbers of sites, subject to relevant security checks. For security successful claims for either disease at constituency level, reasons it would not be appropriate to provide details of but can provide the numbers of successful claims for the individuals who hold such passes. osteoarthritis of the knee in coal miners at the national level. The number of farmers paid benefit for osteoarthritis Employment and Support Allowance of the hip is not currently available. Since the addition of osteoarthritis of the knee to the Dame Anne Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for list of prescribed industrial diseases on 13 July 2009, Work and Pensions whether claimants who have 18,605 customers received an award of, or an increase migrated from non-means-tested incapacity benefit to in, Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit. employment and support allowance (ESA) will lose their entitlement to contributory ESA if they have been This information is based on an informal count by the Jobcentre Plus offices dealing with Industrial Injuries in receipt of it for 12 months as at April 2012. [39126] Disablement Benefit at December 2010. This information Chris Grayling: As part of the spending review will be published in due course. announcement, we have set out our intention to introduce New Deal Schemes: Wirral a time limit of one year for those claiming contributory employment and support allowance (ESA) and who are Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for placed in the Work Related Activity Group (WRAG) Work and Pensions how many disabled people resident only. This includes those people who have been converted in Wirral South constituency have found employment from incapacity benefits as part of the reassessment through the New Deal in each year since 2001. [35144] programme. Chris Grayling: The information is not currently available Employment: Kirkcaldy in the format requested and could be provided only at disproportionate cost within the required time scales. Mr Gordon Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for I will write to the hon. Member with the information Work and Pensions how many (a) young and (b) once it is available. disabled people resident in Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath constituency have found employment New Enterprise Allowance Scheme: Peterborough through the New Deal in each year since 2001. [37451] Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Chris Grayling: The information is not currently available for Work and Pensions how many people resident in in the format requested and could be provided only at Peterborough constituency are participating in (a) the disproportionate cost within the required timescales. New Enterprise Allowance Scheme, (b) Work Clubs I will write to the right hon. Member with the information and (c) Work Choice; and if he will make a statement. once it is available. [39581] 461W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 462W

Chris Grayling: The new enterprise allowance is not Social Security Benefits yet available in Peterborough. Precise roll out plans are still being finalised but we intend to begin rolling out Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for the new enterprise allowance from April. Work Clubs Work and Pensions (1) what estimate he has made of provide support on an entirely voluntary basis and we the level of annual savings to expenditure on benefits do not hold the information on numbers accessing which will accrue from universal credit sanctions; individual Work Clubs. We do not gather information [38672] by constituency on numbers accessing Work Choice. (2) what assessment he has made of the effects on attainment of the targets in the Child Poverty Act 2010 Pension Credit of the application of proposed sanctions in respect of universal credit contained in the White Paper on : To ask the Secretary of State for welfare reform. [38683] Work and Pensions what proportion of (a) women and (b) men receive pension credit in retirement. Chris Grayling: In the Welfare Reform Bill we will be introducing a claimant commitment, which will set out [40180] the responsibilities of benefit recipients, alongside a clear and robust set of sanctions. Claimants will therefore Steve Webb: The information requested is not available. know what they are expected to do and the consequences The answer shows pension credit recipients expressed as of failing to meet those expectations. These changes will a proportion of those who have reached the pension be introduced under the current benefit system and will credit qualifying age. continue to apply under universal credit. Number of pension credit claimants over 60 by gender as a proportion of the population aged 60 or over as at May 2010 The proposed model of sanctions could lead to longer Percentage of sanctions for some claimants, particularly claimants population (aged who have repeatedly failed to meet their responsibilities. Number in Population over 60) in For other claimants—those who fail to meet lower level receipt of figures (aged 60 receipt of pension credit and over) pension credit requirements—sanctions could be shorter depending on how quickly they re-engage. Females 1,663,690 7,391,900 22.5 The overall effect on benefit costs will depend on the Males 1,070,070 6,086,500 17.6 response of claimants to the proposed sanctions system. Notes: If—as is hoped—claimants are encouraged to comply 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. The pension credit qualifying age is gradually increasing to 65. The current in the first place and re-engage more quickly where they pension credit qualifying age is between 60 and three months and 60 and four do fail to meet their responsibilities, there are unlikely months dependant upon a person’s date of birth. This means a small proportion of the over 60’s population will be unable to claim pension credit because they to be any savings in comparison with the current system have not yet reached the qualifying age. as a result of more sanctions being imposed. However, 3. Caseload figures represent the benefit claimants, some of whom may have there could be savings from people moving off benefit partners aged under 60. 4. Mid 2009 population estimates used for males and females aged 60 and over. more quickly as a result of greater compliance with the Source: system. DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study This sort of behavioural response is difficult to predict ONS Mid 2009 Population Estimates with certainty. And at this stage it is not possible to Remploy: Pay quantify the impact of the behavioural impact of the changes. Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Overall, we have estimated that universal credit will Work and Pensions for what reasons managers and have a substantial positive impact on poverty and could directors of Remploy were paid bonuses for 2010. lift as many as 350,000 children out of relative income [39942] poverty. This is a combined impact of all measurable universal credit factors, and does not identify the impact Maria Miller: The coalition inherited a bonus scheme of the sanctions regime. This will help to meet the four for 2010 agreed between Remploy and the previous 2020 income poverty targets in the Child Poverty Act. Government. : To ask the Secretary of State for This Government believe all Departments, including Work and Pensions what plans he has for future non-departmental public bodies, need to show restraint qualifying criteria for carer’s allowance. [39386] in the current economic climate. The Department, therefore, requested that Remploy apply the Government’s bonus Maria Miller: The Government recognise that the cap. United Kingdom’s 6 million carers play an indispensable A recent employment tribunal upheld the previous role in looking after family members or friends who Administration’s remuneration settlement and found need support. that Remploy were contractually obliged to pay the The Government are currently considering whether company’s 2009-10 performance year bonuses. The changes to carer’s allowance will be necessary to take Department therefore has no power to restrict the payment account of the introduction of universal credit and of these bonuses to Remploy managers and executives. provide clearer, more effective support for carers. Notwithstanding this, all public sector bodies are Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations reminded of the need for financial restraint and we have made clear that Remploy executives and managers should Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for reflect this consideration in their pay and bonuses. Work and Pensions if he will review the way in which We are working with Remploy to ensure pay restraint medical assessments for the purposes of determining is applied in future years. benefit suitability are carried out. [39089] 463W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 464W

Chris Grayling: The Government have a commitment FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE to commission an independent review of the WCA annually for the first five years of its operation. The Anti-Semitism first of these, which was conducted by Professor Malcolm Harrington and reported last November made a substantial Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign series of recommendations, a number of which relate to and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of the medical assessment which we have accepted and are 2 June 2010, Official Report, column 10W, on implementing. We have now appointed Professor anti-Semitism, what steps he has taken to protect the Harrington to conduct a second independent review, Jewish community from anti-Semitic attacks since June which will also look at elements of the assessment. We 2010; what recent meetings he has had with look forward to receiving his recommendations later representatives of the Jewish community on the issue; this year. and if he will make a statement. [38034] Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: I have been asked to reply. Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of The Foreign and Commonwealth Office supports the 24 January 2011, Official Report, column 103W, on Cross-Government Working Group to Tackle anti-Semitism social security benefit: medical examinations, what which is chaired by the Department of Communities discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for and Local Government and regularly receives Health on the suitability of a GP to provide representations from the Jewish community on issues of independent advice to a patient on the determination concern. In addition the Government published a three of an entitlement to a health-related benefit; and what years on progress report to the All Party Parliamentary consideration of this issue was undertaken before Inquiry in December which highlighted the steps we publication of the NHS White Paper. [39283] have taken to combat anti-Semitism. Chris Grayling: It would not be appropriate for GPs BBC External Services to fulfil this role. GPs are not routinely trained in the assessment of disability in relation to the entitlement John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for criteria for health related benefits and are not necessarily Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what independent insofar as their primary role is to act as an organisations he consulted prior to making the advocate for the patient. statement on the BBC World Service on 26 January 2011. [37951] State Retirement Pensions: Females Mr Jeremy Browne: The decision by the Secretary of Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right and Pensions how many women he estimates will be hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) affected by the plans to accelerate the raising of the (Mr Hague), to authorise the closure of five language pension age for women. [39947] services was the result of discussions with the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) World Service. Steve Webb: Estimates of the number of women British High Commission Dhaka affected by the proposed changes to the state pension age were published in the equality impact assessment Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for that accompanied the Government’s White Paper ‘A Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the staff cost sustainable State Pension: when the State Pension age of the British high commission in Bangladesh (a) was will increase to 66’. in each of the last five years and (b) is projected to be Universal Credit: Livingston in each year to 2015. [R] [38543] Alistair Burt: Salary costs for our high commission in Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Dhaka in the financial year 2008-09 were approximately Work and Pensions if he will assess the effects of the £2.76 million, for 2009-10 they were approximately introduction of the proposed universal credit in £2.26 million and for 2010-11 the in-year forecast is Livingston constituency. [39238] £2.14 million. Figures for FY 2006-07 and 2007-08 are Chris Grayling: The information requested is not unavailable. available. Staffing decisions are made on an ongoing basis therefore we are unable to provide costs up to 2015. Work Capability Assessment: Telephone Services Although year-on-year costs can vary for a variety of reasons including exchange rate fluctuations, the Foreign Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Office is continually trying to drive Work and Pensions whether his Department has down costs worldwide through increased efficiencies. estimated the average cost (a) in total and (b) per The fall in staff costs does not represent a reduction of minute of a call from a mobile telephone to the 0800 the UK’s effort in Bangladesh. number provided by his Department to contact Atos in relation to the work capability assessment. [39284] Embassies: Finance Chris Grayling: This information is not held by the Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Department for Work and Pensions or Atos Healthcare and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions officials as mobile phone tariffs vary depending on the type of of his Department have had with their counterparts contract the caller has with their service provider (all overseas on planned changes in the level of spending in inclusive contract, or pay as you go etc.). embassies, high commissions and consulates. [38989] 465W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 466W

Alistair Burt: In preparation for the spending review The Secretary of State for International Development 2010, officials from the Foreign and Commonwealth announced during a visit to Somaliland and the region Office spoke to counterparts in other Ministries of that UK aid to Somalia will increase by up to three Foreign Affairs. They used these conversations to times over the next three years. This will result in understand the common challenges faced by the UK’s 340,000 more people getting jobs and better services diplomatic network and those of our international partners, because of British aid over the next four years, in and to exchange ideas on how to deliver an effective and addition to over 500,000 people a year who will benefit efficient service. The Secretary of State for Foreign and from emergency humanitarian assistance. Commonwealth Affairs is determined to ensure that we Greater stability, stemming from an end to conflict at concentrate our resources where they are needed most, national and local levels, is the underlying driver of all to protect and promote British interests worldwide. our objectives. Working across Government we want to: encourage mutually reinforcing and complementary European Council governance structures; enable a permissive security environment which offers stability for citizens; reduce Mr Cash: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign incentives to participate in violence and crime and; shift and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to the expectations towards official and legitimate authorities. conclusions of the February 2011 European Council, what the terms are of the limited treaty change to be ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS adopted at the March 2011 European Council. [40348] Aviation: Noise Mr Lidington: The February European Council Conclusions set out that Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when her “the March European Council will also adopt the final decision on the limited treaty change to set up the European Stability Department expects to conclude its discussions with Mechanism”. the Department for Transport on the publication of airport noise action plans. [39025] The proposed treaty change is set out in the draft European Council decision of 20 December 2010 Richard Benyon [holding answer 8 February 2011]: (document EUCO 33/10) which seeks to amend, using The completion and formal adoption of the airport the simplified revision procedure, Article 136 of the noise action plans are the final elements that DEFRA Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union to needs to complete in order to fulfil completely its obligations enable member states in the euro area to set up a under this phase of the implementation of the permanent mechanism to safeguard the financial and Environmental Noise Directive 2002/49/EC (END). economic stability of the euro area as a whole. The EU DEFRA officials have been working closely with their document was deposited in Parliament on 22 December counterparts in the Department for Transport in reviewing 2010, and submitted for scrutiny under the Explanatory the draft plans submitted by the airports. A number of Memorandum of 10 January 2011 (reference EUCO final draft plans have now been received, and I anticipate 33/10). Under the terms of the EU (Amendment) Act that I will be in a position to adopt the first tranche of 2008, parliamentary approval from both Houses is required airport noise action plans in March. Following this, before the Government can signal agreement to adopt DEFRA officials expect that work on the other airport the draft decision at the March European Council. We plans will be completed by early summer. will therefore introduce a motion and look forward to debating this further before the March European Council. Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has Somalia: Politics and Government assessed the risk of EU infraction proceedings occurring as a result of the time taken to produce airport noise action plans. [39026] Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent steps he has Richard Benyon [holding answer 8 February 2011]: taken with the Secretary of State for International The Environmental Noise Directive 2002/49/EC (END) Development in response to the political and economic required member states to submit summaries of all the situation in Somalia. [38991] adopted airport noise actions plans to the European Commission by January 2009. Given the possible risk Mr Bellingham: The Government works actively both of infraction, DEFRA officials have ensured that the with Somalis and the international community to address Commission has been kept regularly informed of progress the political and economic situation in Somalia. I met and of the timetable for completion of the process. The the Foreign Minister of the Transitional Federal Commission has recognised that its timetable was very Government on 18 January 2011 to discuss the upcoming tight and, thus, the reasons for the delay. It is understood end of the transition period. I also opened a Foreign that some member states have yet to report any information and Commonwealth Office funded conference on Somalia on action plans. Furthermore, the devolved Administrations at Wilton Park on 7 February 2011. The conference have completed their action plan reporting, and England helped to increase international coherence around a has already reported summaries of the action plans for united approach to building long-term stability in Somalia. its agglomerations, major roads and major railways. As This included discussion on development, humanitarian a result, our current assessment is that the risk of and security approaches to improving the political and infraction proceedings is minimal. DEFRA is planning economic situation. Officials from both the Foreign and to report to the Commission in the early summer, Commonwealth Office and the Department for following the adoption of the action plans for the International Development also took part. 17 English airports. 467W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 468W

Birds: Conservation fishing effort required in line with provisions of the management plan. The Government are working with Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for fishermen’s representatives and other interested parties Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is to implement these reductions in a way that provides taking to protect the natural environment and nesting sufficient time at sea for vessels to catch their quota, sites inhabited by farmland birds identified by her including additional time for more sustainable fishing Department as declining in number. [39890] activity, while ensuring that the UK remains within its EU limits. Mr Paice: Nearly 70% of English farmland is in Fossil Fuels: Exploration Environmental Stewardship schemes which improve farmland bird habitats, thus helping to increase population Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for numbers. The Government are reviewing these schemes Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will carry to deliver better outcomes, and DEFRA’s funding of out an overall assessment of the effects of fracking on the Campaign for the Farmed Environment is also underground water supplies; and if she will issue supporting the farming sector’s commitment to increase guidance to industry on the practice. [39936] farmland bird numbers. Furthermore, DEFRA is committed to developing a Richard Benyon: The impact of hydraulic fracturing new biodiversity strategy by spring 2011 setting out our on the water environment in England and Wales would approach to conserving biodiversity in England. be assessed on a site specific basis by the Environment Agency. This would happen via its role as a statutory Departmental Written Questions consultee in the planning process, or as part of its consideration of the need for, and response to, an Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for application for an environmental permit (under the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion Environmental Permitting Regulations 2010). The of questions tabled in the House to her for answer on a Environment Agency has its own in-house technical named day did not receive a substantive answer on the expertise which is used to support its role in protecting day named for such answer in the period from 27 May and managing water quality and resources. 2010 to 7 February 2011. [40176] The UK has a robust regulatory regime in place to ensure that any environmental risk from these activities Richard Benyon: We have received 349 named day would be controlled. This regulatory regime is backed PQs between 27 May 2010 and 7 February 2011; of up by both Government and Environment Agency these, 203 (58%) were answered on the day named for guidance. Based on experience to date in the UK, we do answer. not consider there is a need to modify any formal guidance or regulations, but this will be kept under Fisheries review. Nature Reserves Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her : To ask the Secretary of State for Department’s policy is on the revision of restrictions Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions on the number of days in which fishermen may catch she has had with (a) departmental officials, (b) fish. [39544] Natural England and (c) environmental charities on the future of national nature reserves. [40292] Richard Benyon: Restrictions on the number of ‘days at sea’ fishermen may catch fish are in place under a Richard Benyon: Natural England has been investigating number of management plans within EU waters. UK different management options for National Nature Reserves vessels are affected by restrictions in place for certain and have had a number of discussions with officials and gear types in the western English Channel (ICES sub-area Natural England at which these have been covered. VIIe) under the multi-annual management plan for Ministers have been briefed by Natural England and Western Channel sole; in the North Sea (ICES area IV) have frequently had meetings with environmental charities. under the multi-annual plan for plaice and sole, and; in At some of these National Nature Reserves have been the North Sea (ICES area IV) and Eastern English discussed among other issues. Channel (ICES sub-area VIId), Irish Sea (ICES sub-area VIIa) and West of Scotland (ICES sub-areas VIa and Sites of Special Scientific Interest Vb) under the long-term management plan for cod. Under each of these management plans, the number Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for of days that may be spent at sea are revised annually Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many according to the details of the management plan and owners of sites of special scientific interest were served linked to the state of the stocks. restoration orders in (a) 2007, (b) 2008, (c) 2009 and For the Western Channel, the number of days member (d) 2010. [39452] states may allocate to individual vessels are detailed Richard Benyon: The number of owners of sites of within the annual fishing opportunities regulation. The special scientific interest served restoration orders were: Government successfully argued that there should be no further cut to the number of days in 2011 as the 2007: 1 conditions of the management plan, to reduce fishing 2008: 1 mortality to the maximum sustainable yield level, have 2009: 1 been met. For all other areas, there is a reduction in 2010: 0. 469W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 470W

Water: EU Law Housing: Construction

Mr Marcus Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what duties are Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for placed on British Waterways in consequence of the Communities and Local Government (1) which local operation of the Water Framework Directive. [39328] authorities he estimates will (a) gain and (b) lose financially as a result of the implementation of his Richard Benyon: The water framework directive (WFD) proposals for a New Homes Bonus system over the is transposed in most of England and Wales by the next six years; and if he will make a statement; [39339] Water Environment (Water Framework Directive) (England (2) what his estimate is of the number of local and Wales) Regulations 2003. Regulation 17 requires authorities which would (a) gain and (b) lose that the Secretary of State, Welsh Ministers, the financially as a result of the implementation of his Environment Agency and certain public bodies (including proposals for a New Homes Bonus system over the British Waterways): next six years; and if he will make a statement; [39340] “must, in exercising their functions so far as affecting a river basin district, have regard to...the river basin management plan (3) which local authorities were assessed as likely to for that district as approved...”. (a) gain and (b) lose financially in the retrospective There are other duties on public bodies in these regulations modelling carried out by his Department as part of the in relation to the provision of information and assistance New Homes Bonus consultation paper; and if he will to the Environment Agency (Regulation 19), and in make a statement; [39341] relation to compliance with any directions or guidance (4) what assessment he has made of the geographic issued by the Secretary of State, or Welsh Ministers areas in which the estimated 14,000 additional new (Regulation 20). Other regulations make similar provision homes predicted by the New Homes Bonus impact in the cross-border Northumbria and Solway Tweed assessment will be built; and if he will make a river basin districts. This is a devolved matter in Scotland. statement. [39342] British Waterways discharges its duties under Regulation 17 by means of its Environmental Management : The aim of the New Homes Bonus is System. This system ensures the environmental appraisal to provide a powerful, simple, transparent and permanent of all British Waterways’ activities, assessing impacts in means of incentivising local authorities to increase their terms of the WFD ‘no deterioration’ objective. It also housing supply. checks that there is a process to deal with the actions in The spending review has secured almost £1 billion of each river basin management plan for which British funding to support the New Homes Bonus over the four Waterways is responsible. year spending review period. The consultation stage impact assessment published alongside the scheme consultation makes an estimate of COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT the potential supply impact, but the relative financial Departmental Public Expenditure position of an authority compared to others will depend on the final scheme design and the behavioural response Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for of local authorities and their communities. Communities and Local Government how much We are giving communities and neighbourhoods new Barnett consequential funding his Department has rights, powers and tools that they could use to drive provided to each devolved Administration in (a) forward local regeneration and growth, enhancing their 2010-11 to date and (b) each of the last three years; ability to benefit from the New Homes Bonus. We are and with which programmes such funding was also giving local communities and councils greater control associated. [39403] over what happens locally, and greater ability to secure and channel public resources, and to attract private and Robert Neill: In the 2010 spending review changes in social investment. the DEL budgets of the devolved Administrations were determined by the Barnett formula in the normal way. The distribution and behavioural response of local The settlements for the years 2011-12 to 2014-15 were authorities will largely determine the geographical spread published in table 2.22 of the 2010 spending review but our analysis suggests a potential increase of document (Cm 7942). 8-13% nationally. This represents a total of approximately 144,000 additional homes built over the initial 10 years. Barnett consequentials relating to each of the devolved The impact assessment also provides an illustration of Administrations for the years 2008-09 to 2010-11 are the impact by demand and attitude to growth. This can published as part of the Public Expenditure Statistical be found at Analyses Supplementary Material on the Treasury’s website under the heading “House of Lords Select http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/housing/ Committee on the Barnett Formula”. newhomesbonusconsult http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/pespub_pesa10.htm To disclose the retrospective modelling would be Updated tables taking account of adjustments since inappropriate. The modelling was done on the basis of the publication of the 2010 edition of Public Expenditure retrospective housing supply data which cannot take Statistical Analyses will be published alongside the next account of future policy changes. In addition the edition of the analyses later this year. Government have not yet made an announcement on Information on the block grants paid by the territorial the final scheme design. This will be made shortly. offices to the devolved Administrations is published We have however, published a calculator alongside alongside the main and supplementary estimates. the consultation document where individual local 471W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 472W authorities are given an indicative allocation for year 1 Ofcom: Consultants and can estimate future years funding from the New Homes Bonus scheme. This can be found at: Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/xls/ Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what the name 1767709.xls was of the consultancy on whom Ofcom spent Under the consultation proposals we are also incentivising £2.7 million in 2009-10 on that consultancy’s role as a local authorities to bring empty homes back into use. thought partner; what the (a) number of hours This also means the authorities demolishing homes worked, (b) number of staff provided, (c) hourly rate classified as long-term empty homes would not be per member of staff for the consultancy, for the penalised. provision of these services were. [39085]

Social Rented Housing Mr Vaizey [holding answer 8 February 2011]: The matter raised is an operational one for the independent Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State regulator, the Office of Communications (Ofcom), which for Communities and Local Government when he is accountable to Parliament rather than Ministers. expects to publish proposals for funding arrangements Accordingly, my officials spoke to Ofcom, who advised for registered providers under the affordable rent that the £2.7 million referred to was not spent on one scheme; and if he will make a statement. [39605] consultancy, rather it was the total sum spent across 2009-10 on work provided by 31 different suppliers Andrew Stunell: We are planning to publish guidance providing a range of services to Ofcom including research on the new Affordable Homes Programme jointly with and specialist technical expertise on a range of projects the Homes and Communities Agency very shortly. as part of Ofcom’s overall annual programme of work. The table sets out the suppliers used and total sums paid. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT According to Ofcom, information provided as part of its tendering process is commercially sensitive. Ofcom Departmental Security was therefore unable to provide a more detailed breakdown of the number of hours worked, staff provided and Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for hour rate by each supplier since disclosure of this may Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport which persons not compromise future tendering processes. A breakdown employed by Government departments or agencies of the figure in question is as follows: hold passes entitling them to enter his Department’s premises. [39271] Vendors Total (£)

John Penrose: Such passes are held by: 54 people who Aegis Systems Ltd. 11,759.40 work for companies that provide IT, facilities management, Analysys Mason Ltd. 771,521.33 security guarding and related services to the department; Andrew Chesher 49,335.00 30 staff who work for a private tenant in our main BDO Stoy Hayward LLP 9,400.00 building in Cockspur street (whose passes do not allow Bentley Associates 14,638.34 access to DCMS occupied floors); and 24 agency and Critical Research Ltd. 14,282.13 interim staff working in the Department. Deloitte and Touche LLP 177,754.61 Dotecon Ltd. 213,869.55 Government Art Collection ERA Technology Ltd. 45,783.60 Ernst and Young LLP 61,850.00 Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Essential Research 153,958.07 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much Harris Interactive UK Ltd. 10,420.58 funding the Government Art Collection plans to Illuminas Ltd. 29,375.73 allocate to the acquisition of new works of art in (a) KPMG LLP 4,684.26 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. [39534] LECG Ltd. 96,915.00 Mediaclarity Digital Ltd. 23,500.00 Mr Vaizey: The capital budget allocation for the Mott MacDonald Ltd. 42,379.54 purchase of new works of art for 2010-11 is £194,000. Oliver and Ohlbaum Associates Ltd. 50,963.28 For 2011-12 it is £104,000. Oxera Consulting Ltd. 141,956.14 PA Consulting Group 105,187.50 Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for Plum Consulting Ltd. 72,262.50 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent PricewaterhouseCoopers 31,033.24 estimate he has made of the value of the Government Prodata Partners Ltd. 42,423.50 Art Collection. [39536] Sagentia Ltd. 34,603.75 Saville Rossiter-Base 371,888.94 Mr Vaizey: It is not possible to give an accurate Steve Carter 2,350.00 estimate of the value of the Government Art Collection, Synovate Ltd. 110,481.69 which has no current market valuation. The current The Brattle Group 6,316.38 monetary value of a work of art can be accurately TNS UK Ltd. 39,675.00 assessed only at the time of purchase or sale or by Transfinite Systems Ltd. 2,300.01 professional valuation. In the former case, the collection Value Partners Management Consulting 63,410.50 is not actively traded; in the latter, it would not be Accounting adjustments (40,512.50) justifiable expenditure of public funds to have the whole Total 2,765,767.07 collection valued professionally. 473W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 474W

Olympic Games 2012 Ofcom is currently undertaking a review of relay service provision for hearing- and speech-impaired users Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for of electronic communications. A consultation document Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether Visit will be published in the spring which will include Ofcom’s England has provided to the Department its annual analysis on the costs and benefits associated with video review on the opportunities arising from the London relay services and an impact assessment. 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games. [38999] A research report which will help inform the review was published on 4 February 2011 and can be read at: John Penrose: VisitEngland has not been asked by http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/market-data-research/ this Department to undertake an annual review on telecoms-research/ofcom-relay-services/ 2012 opportunities, but has (naturally) done extensive This report seeks to quantify the value to deaf people analysis to underpin its strategies and marketing plans of the various options for relay services. for 2012 and beyond.

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for HEALTH Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he has plans to compensate businesses whose premises will be Bowel Cancer: Health Services temporarily inaccessible because of security measures associated with the London 2012 Olympics. [39119] David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what steps he is taking to support effective Hugh Robertson: Operational planning for the Olympic commissioning for bowel cancer; [39576] and Paralympic Games aims to minimise disruption to (2) if he will take steps to ensure communication and individuals and businesses as far as possible. London partnership working between Public Health England 2012 delivery partners have been working together for and the NHS in respect of prevention and treatment of some time to ensure clear and co-ordinated communications (a) bowel cancer and (b) other cancers to achieve a and consultation well in advance of the games to enable joined-up approach; [39594] businesses to assess how games operations might affect (3) what steps he is taking to provide (a) GPs, (b) their own operations and plan accordingly. Any GP commissioners and (c) GP consortia with compensation claims that do arise will be dealt with on information, support and resources to provide effective a case by case basis. bowel cancer services. [39595]

Olympic Games 2012: Contracts Paul Burstow: The White Paper ‘Equity and Excellence: Liberating the NHS’ describes the Government’s vision Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for to create a more autonomous and accountable national Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport which companies health service. Within this new commissioning architecture, based in Scotland have been awarded contracts to responsibility for most commissioning is devolved to provide supplies and services to the London 2012 local general practitioner (GP) commissioning consortia, supported and held to account by an independent NHS Olympics to date. [39489] Commissioning Board. Hugh Robertson: To date, 25 businesses registered in ‘Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer’, published Scotland have won work supplying the Olympic Delivery on 12 January, discusses how commissioners can be Authority (ODA). supported to commission cancer services, including bowel cancer services, in the reformed national health service. This figure only accounts for the contracts awarded A significant amount of cancer care is best commissioned by the ODA to its own top tier of contractors (tier one for populations covering one and a half to two million contractors), such as Barr, based in Glasgow, who are and, where population size requirements mean that a building the basketball arena. The figure does not include single GP consortium is too small to commission a contracts further down the supply chain, in tiers two, particular service, then GP consortia will wish to work three and so on, which are awarded by the tier one collaboratively. GP consortia will be able to decide contractors and not by the ODA. The names of the whether they wish to identify a lead consortium for companies, that have won Games-related contracts, can commissioning more specialised cancer services or to be found at the business section of the London 2012 do so through commissioning support organisations. website at the following link: In addition, health and well-being boards in every http://www.london2012.com/get-involved/business-network/ oda-suppliers/index.php upper-tier local authority will provide a mechanism for bringing together local NHS, public health and social care commissioners. This could provide a forum for the Telecommunications: Visual Impairment development of cross-cutting commissioning approaches to improve cancer services. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department and the National Cancer Action Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment Team have previously provided commissioners with a he has made of the contribution to the economy of the range of commissioning guidance and support, such as use by deaf people of video relay services. [39289] the Cancer Commissioning Toolkit and the Cancer Commissioning Guidance. Going forward, this Mr Vaizey: No assessment has been made of the guidance will be developed to reflect what works best in contribution to the economy of the use by deaf people supporting pathfinder GP consortia. In 2011, we will of video relay services. also develop a cancer commissioning support pack to 475W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 476W enable commissioners to access in one place the key Updated tables taking account of adjustments since information they will need to discharge their functions the publication of the 2010 edition of Public Expenditure effectively. Statistical Analyses (PESA) will be published alongside Our strategy also makes clear the vital role that GPs the next edition of PESA later this year. have to play in achieving early diagnosis of cancer and Information on the block grants paid by the territorial it is therefore important they receive the necessary offices to the devolved Administrations is published support to do this. We are providing £450 million over alongside the main and supplementary estimates. the next four years that will give GPs direct access to a range of diagnostic tests to confirm or rule out cancer; Doctors: Training support GPs to diagnose cancer; and fund the associated cancer treatments in secondary care. Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for There is already information available for GPs about Health what proportion of foundation house officers referral of patients with possible cancer symptoms, but did not continue their training beyond the Foundation we are looking at more ways to support GPs. Specifically Programme in the latest period for which figures are on bowel cancer, we have commissioned Bowel Cancer available. [39741] UK to provide resource packs for all GPs in the two regions that are involved in campaigns to encourage Anne Milton: Figures from a recent United Kingdom- earlier presentation of people with bowel cancer symptoms. wide survey of Foundation Programme doctors indicated Successful delivery of public health services will require that approximately 11% had not continued their training strong links between Public Health England and the at the present time, of which 6% took up a service post NHS. Joint working will be essential in supporting the and 5% taking a career break. collection and provision of the information needed to inform future commissioning and to enable specific Doncaster and Bassetlaw Hospitals NHS Foundation public health services to be commissioned through, and Trust delivered by, the NHS. This will require sharing of expertise and knowledge across the two services. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many non-medical staff at Doncaster and Departmental Freedom of Information Bassetlaw hospital are paid over £150,000 a year. [39876] : To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to the letter of 4 February 2011 from his Mr Simon Burns: Published earnings data for non- Department’s freedom of information case officer to medical staff, which does not include staff who are not the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne, on Agenda for Change terms and conditions such as what deadline he has set by which the hon. Member’s board members, chief executives, and others on local request for a departmental internal review will be pay and conditions, show that there were no staff paid completed and released. [39941] in excess of £150,000 in either basic pay or total earnings at Doncaster and Bassetiaw Hospitals NHS Foundation Mr Simon Burns: Work on this review is still under Trust (FT) for the 12 months from October 2009 to way and a response will be sent to the right hon. September 2010. Member as soon as possible and a copy placed in the FTs are accountable to their governors and members, Library. The Freedom of Information Act does not including on the issue of pay. The pay of FT directors, provide a legal deadline for the completion of an internal including their chief executive and senior staff, is up to review. each individual FT to determine. Neither Monitor nor the Department collect or hold this information centrally. Departmental Public Expenditure However, this information is available publicly, in each FT’s annual accounts, in £5,000 bands. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for In future, we will be introducing a new requirement Health how much Barnett consequential funding his on FTs through the Health and Social Care Bill about Department has provided to each devolved transparency on pay through their annual reports. FTs Administration in (a) 2010-11 to date and (b) each of will have to include details of the pay and remuneration the last three years; and with which programmes such policy of the FT, together with details of the pay of funding was associated. [39406] directors and information on the work of the FT’s remuneration committee. Mr Simon Burns: In the 2010 spending review changes in the departmental expenditure limit (DEL) budgets of Family Planning the devolved Administrations were determined by the Barnett formula in the normal way. The settlements for Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State the years 2011-12 to 2014-15 were published in table 2.22 for Health whether family planning will fall within the of the 2010 Spending Review document (Cm 7942). commissioning responsibility of (a) GP consortia and Barnett consequentials relating to each of the devolved (b) local authorities under his proposals for NHS administrations for the years 2008-09 to 2010-11 are reform. [39450] published as part of the Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses Supplementary Material on the Treasury’s Anne Milton: On 21 December 2010, we published website under the heading House of Lords Select ‘Healthy Lives, Healthy People: Consultation on the Committee on the Barnett Formula and is available at: funding and commissioning routes for public health’, a www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/pespub_pesa10.htm copy of which has already been placed in the Library. 477W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 478W

We propose that local authorities will be responsible Mr Simon Burns: Following a public consultation on for commissioning comprehensive open-access sexual the future use of 084 numbers in the national health health services using funds from the ring-fenced public service, Directions to strategic health authorities and health budget. In the case of contraception, Public primary care trusts, and to special health authorities Health England will fund the commissioning by the and NHS trusts in England (with the exception of NHS NHS Commissioning Board of contraception provision Direct NHS Trust) were issued in December 2009. The currently available as an additional service under the Directions instruct those organisations not to use contact general practitioner (GP) contract, and local authorities telephone numbers which have the effect of the patient will fund and commission contraceptive services (including paying a premium above the cost of a call to a geographical through community pharmacies) for patients who do number. Corresponding regulations were issued as an not wish to go to their GP or who have more complex amendment to the General Medical Services Regulations needs. This model also provides opportunities to further in spring 2010. integrate provision of sexually transmitted infections The regulations do not prohibit an organisation from and contraception services. using specific number ranges for the purpose of contacting These proposals are currently subject to consultation NHS services, Organisations remain free to use non- which closes on 31 March. geographical number ranges such as 084, providing that General Practitioners patients are not charged more than the equivalent cost of calling a geographical number to do so. Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State Health Services: Foreign Workers for Health what assessment he has made of the potential for staff of primary care trusts to enter employment with GP commissioning consortia. [39448] Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of the number of Mr Simon Burns: The Impact Assessment of the (a) doctors and (b) other healthcare professionals Health and Social Care Bill shows a best estimate of from outside the EU who were employed in the UK on 60% at this stage, of primary care trust (PCT) and the most recent date for which figures are available. strategic health authority staff transferring to new [39477] organisations in the system, including general practitioner (GP) commissioning consortia and the NHS commissioning Mr Simon Burns: This information is not held centrally. board. GP commissioning consortia and PCTs should The NHS Information Centre collects data on the number work together to ensure the movement of appropriately of medical staff broken down by country of primary skilled and experienced staff into the new organisations medical qualification and not by nationality. The NHS to avoid the loss of skills and unnecessary redundancy Information Centre for health and social care Medical costs. and Dental Workforce Census September 2009 (England) shows that 35,559 doctors qualified outside the European General Practitioners: Disclosure of Information Economic Area. No data are collected on the country of qualification for other non-medical staff. Mr Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans he has to publicise whistleblower Living Wills rights and protections for GPs. [39407] Anne Milton: The Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (PIDA) is part of the wider employment rights legislation what his Department’s policy is on living wills. [39687] and gives the full protection of the law to employees who act in the public interest, providing they follow the Anne Milton: The Mental Capacity Act 2005 provides procedures set out in the Act. a legal framework to enable someone aged 18 and over PIDA would apply where a genera! practitioner (GP) to make an advance decision, sometimes known as a is directly employed, for instance by another GP or, in living will, to refuse specified medical treatment for a more limited circumstances, by a primary care trust time in the future when they may lack the capacity to (PCT). However, the vast majority of GPs provide consent to or refuse that treatment. Provided the decision primary medical services as independent contractors is valid and applicable to current circumstances, it has engaged under contracts for services by local PCTs. As the same effect as a decision made by a person with such, they are not employees and PIDA would not capacity. There are no current plans to change that legal apply. framework. If a GP has concerns about another clinician or Myasthenias service then these can be raised with the local PCT, with the relevant professional regulatory body and, if registered, Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with the Care Quality Commission. It will be for the what assessment he has made of trends in the costs of NHS Commissioning Board to consider what arrangements medicines to treat (a) congenital and (b) Lambert- are needed to enable GPs to raise concerns with the GP Eaton myasthenic syndrome. [39374] consortia or the Board itself. General Practitioners: Telephone Services Mr Simon Burns: Information on the number of prescription items written in the United Kingdom David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for and dispensed in the community in England, for Health when he expects non-geographic telephone medicines used to treat both congenital and Lambert-Eaton numbers for GP surgeries to be phased out; and if he myasthenic syndrome are provided in the following will make a statement. [39560] table. 479W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 480W

Net ingredient cost of prescription items written in the UK and dispensed in the Palliative Care: Drugs community in England—January 2005 to September 2010 £000 Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Congenital myasthenic Lambert-Eaton syndromel myasthenic syndrome2 Health what steps he has taken to assess the (a) safety and (b) consistency of the approach of the NHS in 2005 2,646.8 26.1 prescribing drugs to frail and elderly patients in 2006 2,758.8 18.3 terminal care; and what steps he has taken to assess 2007 2,761.8 27.0 whether such treatment is at all times in the best 2008 2,908.9 9.0 interest of the patients. [39323] 2009 2,995.9 6.0 20103 2,176.7 13.8 Mr Simon Burns: It is for local national health service 1 These drugs are Distigmine bromide, Neostigmine bromide and Pyridostigmine services to ensure they are operating safely taking account bromide. The British National Formulary indicates neostigmine is also used for of best practice guidance. The General Medical Council’s other purposes (neuromuscular blockade) and that distigmine is primarily used for urinary retention and sometimes for myasthenia gravis. guidance “Good Practice in Prescribing Medicines” 2 This includes 3,4. diaminopyridine (amifampridine) and Firdapse (brand gives detailed guidance for doctors on prescribing medicines, name). and makes it clear that prescribing must be appropriate 3 Nine months data, January to September. Source: and undertaken in the patient’s best interests. Prescription cost analysis system The Department published a national End of Life These drugs are also used in hospitals. However, as Care Strategy in 2008, which aims to improve care for they have not been positively appraised by the National all adults from diagnosis through to bereavement. The Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence, under our Strategy sets out the need to engage actively with people contractual agreement with the company who supply us at the end of life, and their families and carers, in care with the hospital data, IMS Health, we cannot release planning. data for these drugs. This enables patients to make choices about the care they receive, including medication to control their symptoms Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) and about advance decisions to refuse treatment, in line what assessment he has made of the effects of the EU with the Mental Capacity Act 2005. orphan drugs regulations on the development of medicines to treat (a) congenital and (b) Lambert- Sickle Cell Diseases: Screening Eaton myasthenic syndrome; [39375] Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State (2) what assessment he has made of the effects of EU for Health (1) whether his Department monitors the orphan drugs regulations on the cost to patients of implementation of the NHS Standards and Guidance medicines to treat (a) congenital and (b) Lambert- for Transcranial Doppler Scanning for Children with Eaton myasthenic syndrome. [39376] Sickle Cell Disease issued in March 2009; [39479] (2) whether he has plans to ensure that all children Mr Simon Burns: We have made no such assessments. with sickle cell disease have access to transcranial The orphan drug legislation, Regulation (EC) No doppler scans to determine their risk of stroke. [39480] 141/2000, was introduced to include a specific incentive which provides for a period of market exclusivity for a Anne Milton: The planning, delivery and improvement company which develops an orphan drug. of services for people with sickle cell are the responsibility Rewards to companies under the orphan medicines of local commissioners and providers. scheme should be proportionate to the effort and cost The Department, working with key partners has incurred. If there is evidence of systematic use of the supported a range of initiatives to improve access to orphan drug legislation in circumstances where companies services for sickle cell and thalassaemia patients. These are not incurring substantial research and development include: costs, then we would consider pressing for a change in supporting the development of transcranial doppler scanning the European legislation. services to provide early identification of sickle cell children at risk of stroke; Palliative Care: Children launching the National Haemoglobinopathy Registry to identify patients with sickle and thalassaemia and monitor care; funding training posts for registrars, nurse consultants and Stuart Andrew: To ask the Secretary of State for clinical scientists to increase the number of staff with specific Health how much of his Department’s fund for expertise in haemoglobinopathy disorders; and children’s palliative care has been spent to date; and on funding the East Midlands Specialised Commissioning Group what he expects the remainder to be spent. [39880] to produce standards of care for trusts and service models for commissioners in high and low prevalence areas and integrated Anne Milton: The Department allocated just over pathways of care for patients. £19 million of the £30 million funding made available in 2010-11 for children’s palliative care projects. The remainder has now been returned to central finance. This funding HOME DEPARTMENT will directly benefit children’s palliative care and support more nationally equitable provision of services. The Alcoholic Drinks: Crime Expert Advisory Panel that reviewed all applications received, worked to ensure that as many effective bids as Stuart Andrew: To ask the Secretary of State for the possible were funded and felt able to recommend that Home Department what steps her Department plans to bids totalling over £19 million of the £30 million could take to reduce the incidence of alcohol-related crime be spent. and disorder in university towns and cities. [40258] 481W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 482W

James Brokenshire: In the coalition agreement, the of British Jews, the Community Security Trust and the Government set out a clear programme of reform around Jewish Leadership Council sit on the Cross Government alcohol licensing to tackle the crime and antisocial Working Group which is tasked with tackling anti-Semitism. behaviour that is too often associated with binge drinking in the night-time economy, and has particular issues for Entry Clearances: Overseas Students university towns and cities. Following a public consultation, we have introduced Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for the measures to deliver this reform through the Police Reform Home Department what assessment she has made of and Social Responsibility Bill. The measures include; the effects of the changes to student visa requirements making it easier for communities to have their say on on the number of students studying at (a) publicly- local licensing by allowing local authorities to consider financed further education colleges, (b) privately- the views of the wider community, not just those living financed further education colleges, (c) publicly- close to premises; charging a fee for late-night licences funded higher education institutions and (d) private so that premises open late at night contribute towards higher education institutions. [39798] the cost of policing and local authority services, and Damian Green: A consultation on the student substantially overhauling the system for temporary event immigration system closed on 31 January.The consultation notices (TENs), so that existing loopholes can no longer sought the views of all respondents on the effect of the be exploited by unscrupulous operators, while ensuring proposals. The results of the consultation and an impact the process is not bureaucratic for small voluntary and assessment will be published in due course. community groups.

Anti-Semitism CABINET OFFICE Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Big Society Bank Home Department if she will commission a report from the chief constable of Greater Manchester police Richard Fuller: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet on allegations of anti-Semitic comments made at the Office if he will take steps to support the development National Campaign Against Fees and Cuts protest on of not-for-profit contractors for public services 29 January 2011; whether any arrests have been made through the big society bank. [39768] in connection with such allegations; and if she will make a statement. [R] [39610] Mr Hurd: The big society bank will operate at a wholesale level through social investment intermediaries Andrew Stunell: I have been asked to reply. to catalyse growth in the social investment market, The coalition Government are committed to confronting encouraging increased investment in social enterprises anti-Semitism wherever it is found. I would also refer and other organisations with a social purpose and the hon. Member to the answer given by the Under- broadening the finance options open to the sector. This Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. means that, although the bank will not deal directly Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James with frontline organisations, it may indirectly support Brokenshire), on 3 February 2011, Official Report, columns the development of not-for-profit contractors for public 913-14W. services.

Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Big Society Initiative Home Department what recent discussions she has had with the Community Security Trust on levels of Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet anti-Semitism; what matters were discussed; and if she Office what his most recent assessment is of the level of will make a statement. [R] [39611] public support for the big society initiative. [39925]

Andrew Stunell: I have been asked to reply. Mr Hurd: Big society is building on the great work We regularly meet with representatives of the Community already going on in the community and encouraging Security Trust to discuss the levels of anti-Semitism. In individuals to embrace the additional opportunities early February, I was briefed on the Community Security available to them. This is illustrated by the demand big Trust’s recent report on the number of anti-Semitic society initiatives have received over the last year. incidents in 2010 and I have asked the Cross Government For example, public service workers have been keen Working Group on anti-Semitism to ensure that we to take control of public services in order to improve continue to work together to tackle this issue. quality and efficiency. 21 mutual pathfinders and 141 Pathfinder GP consortia have already been launched Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the across public services. Home Department what recent meetings she has had There is real demand for the National Citizens Service with the Board of Deputies of British Jews on levels of from young people as illustrated by the British Youth anti-Semitism; what matters were discussed; and if she Council “Big Listen”survey. We expect over 11,000 people will make a statement. [R] [39613] to take part in the initiative this summer. Businesses are also becoming more engaged in the Andrew Stunell: I have been asked to reply. community with 77% of business leaders stating they We regularly meet with representatives of the Board could do more to scale up strategic support for communities of Deputies of British Jews to discuss the levels of and 80% stating they could do more to encourage other anti-Semitism. Representatives from the Board of Deputies businesses to scale up their support. 483W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 484W

Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Hurd: The Cabinet Office has no co-ordinating Office what assessment he has made of the levels of (a) role in any such discussions. recognition and (b) understanding of the Government’s big society initiative among (i) the Transition Fund general public, (ii) the voluntary sector, (iii) trade unions and (iv) hon. Members; and if he will make a Nia Griffith: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet statement. [40196] Office (1) how much of his Department’s Transition Fund he expects to be used to fund debt advice services Mr Hurd: We have not undertaken a formal assessment in financial year 2010-11; [40215] of the recognition and understanding of the big society (2) how much of his Department’s Transition Fund initiative among the public. Nevertheless there has been has been allocated to fund debt advice services in widespread enthusiasm from the public and the voluntary 2011-12. [40216] sector to find out about and engage with the big society vision. Mr Hurd: Debt counselling is one of the eligible For example, the Department for Education has received service areas for the £100 million Transition Fund. 258 applications to set up a free school, illustrating the Funding has not been allocated in advance to specific appetite of the general public to have more say in public service areas. As applications to the Transition Fund services. are still being assessed, I am not able say how much There is also increasing demand from individuals to funding will be awarded to this area. contribute to their community and society. According to the 2008-09 Citizenship Survey, 14.1 million people who are already volunteering are willing to do more for JUSTICE others in their community. Departmental Public Expenditure Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office if he will establish a formal definition for his Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Department’s Big Society initiative. [40329] Justice how much Barnett consequential funding his Department has provided to each of the devolved Mr Hurd: The big society is at the heart of the administrations in (a) 2010-11 to date and (b) each of Government’s programme of reform, but it is not a the last three years; and with which programmes such Cabinet Office initiative with top down targets and funding was associated. [39380] prescription from the centre. The big society has three clear components at its core: Mr Djanogly: In the 2010 spending review changes in inspiring social action; the DEL budgets of the devolved administrations were empowering communities to take control of their area; and determined by the Barnett formula in the normal way. opening up public services to diverse providers such as charities The settlements for the years 2011-12 to 2014-15 were and social enterprises. published in table 2.22 of the 2010 spending review document (Cm 7942). Public Service: Contractors Barnett consequentials relating to each of the devolved Administrations for the years 2008-09 to 2010-11 are published as part of the Public Expenditure Statistical Richard Fuller: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Analyses Supplementary Material on the Treasury’s Office if he will take steps to enable the big society website under the heading “House of Lords Select bank to provide capital support to not-for-profit Committee on the Barnett Formula”. contractors for public services in order to guarantee their financial stability for potential public http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/pespub_pesa10.htm procurement bodies. [39766] Updated tables taking account of adjustments since the publication of the 2010 edition of PESA will be Mr Hurd: The big society bank will operate at a published alongside the next edition of PESA later this wholesale level through social investment year. intermediaries to catalyse growth in the social investment Information on the block grants paid by the territorial market, encouraging increased investment in social offices to the devolved administrations is published enterprises and other organisations with a social alongside the main and supplementary estimates. purpose and broadening the finance options open to the sector. This means that, although the bank will not : To ask the Secretary of State for Justice deal directly with frontline organisations, it may indirectly what estimate he has made of the likely financial cost provide capital to not-for-profit contractors for public to his Department of the operation of the (a) Civil services. Procedure Rule Committee, (b) Criminal Cases Review Commission, (c) Criminal Procedure Rule (d) Speech Therapy Committee, Family Procedure Rule Committee, (e) Judicial Appointments and Conduct Ombudsman, (f) Judicial Appointments Commission, (g) Parole Mr : To ask the Minister for the Board, (h) Sentencing Council for England and Wales, Cabinet Office what role his Department has in the (i) Tribunal Procedure Committee and (j) Valuation co-ordination of discussions between Departments on Tribunal for England in (i) 2011-12, (ii) 2012-13 and speech and language therapy. [39004] (iii) 2013-14. [40187] 485W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 486W

Mr Djanogly: The information is set out as follows:

£ Arm’s length body 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14

Civil Procedure Rule Committee 7,000 7,000 7,000 Criminal Cases Review Commission 15,900,000 15,600,000 16,200,000 Criminal Procedure Rule Committee2 ——— Family Procedure Rule Committee 7,000 7,000 7,000 Judicial Appointments and Conduct Ombudsman 1500,000 1500,000 1500,000 Judicial Appointments Commission 15,500,000 15,500,000 15,700,000 Parole Board 110,500,000 110,500,000 110,800,000 Sentencing Council for England and Wales3 ——— Tribunal Procedure Committee4 11,500 18,500 18,000 Valuation Tribunal for England5 ——— 1 Indicative resource allocations only. 2 The funding for the Criminal Procedure Rule Committee in future years is yet to be agreed. 3 The funding for the Sentencing Council in future years is yet to be agreed. 4 In 2012-13 and 2013-14 recruitment exercises are planned, these cost £6,500. 5 The Valuation Tribunal for England is part of the Department of Communities and Local Government.

Land Registry Mr Djanogly: Offences under the Welfare of Farmed Animals (England) Regulations 2007 cannot be separately Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for identified from court proceedings data collated centrally Justice when the findings of the feasibility study into by the Ministry of Justice as they form part of a the future of the Land Registry will be published. miscellaneous group of offences which cannot be separately [39871] analysed.

Mr Djanogly: We do not intend to publish the findings Victims and Witnesses: Voluntary Organisations of the feasibility study at this stage. The findings relate to the formulation and development of Government policy and are still under consideration by Ministers. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Publication might deter Ministers and officials from what the financial cost to his Department was of raising, and having free and frank discussions, about support to the victim and witness voluntary sector in the full range of possibilities in relation to any given the financial years (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) policy or approach to implementation. This would have 2010-11. [40186] a detrimental effect on both the process of collective Government and the quality of the decision-making. In Mr Blunt: The financial cost to the Ministry of Justice addition, the findings contain information that if released for support to the victim and witness voluntary sector is would, or would be likely to, prejudice the commercial as follows: interests of Land Registry and the Ministry of Justice. (a) £40.3 million in the financial year 2008-09; However, if the preferred option is for a materially b) £40.7 million in the financial year 2009-10; and different ownership structure for HMLR, then a full (c) £48.9 million in the financial year 2010-11. public consultation will be conducted. This does not include the funding provided to Co-operative Legal Services to provide the Legal Advice Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for Helpline service for people bereaved by homicide and Justice what discussions (a) he and (b) his officials the funding provided to the Criminal Injuries Compensation have had with (i) Ministers and (ii) officials in the Authority to compensate victims of violent crime who Cabinet Office on the Land Registry and the use of its have been physically or mentally injured. data in the Public Data Corporation. [39872] Mr Djanogly: Both the Secretary of State for Justice and my ministerial colleague Lord McNally have met with Ministers in the Cabinet Office regarding the Land SCOTLAND Registry and the potential use of its data in a Public Data Corporation. Disability Living Allowance Ministry of Justice officials have also met with colleagues in the Cabinet Office to ensure that full consideration is Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for given to the Public Data Corporation proposition as Scotland what discussions he has had with the part of the work undertaken in relation to the Land Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the Registry Feasibility Study. decision to remove the mobility component of Prosecutions: Animal Welfare disability living allowance from those in residential care homes. [39398] Stuart Andrew: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many prosecutions there have been in (a) David Mundell: The Secretary of State for Scotland the UK and (b) Yorkshire in respect of breaches of the and I are in contact with the Secretary of State for Welfare of Farmed Animals (England) Regulations Work and Pensions on a range of issues concerning 2007 to date. [40339] reform of the welfare system. 487W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 488W

Disability: Children the £1.4 billion fund for the creation of new apprenticeship places he expects to be used to fund Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for apprenticeships in the low carbon sector; [40343] Scotland pursuant to the answer of 4 February 2011, (2) how many new apprenticeship places he expects Official Report, columns 1015-6W, on disability: to be created in the low carbon sector. [40342] children, when he plans to meet the Scottish Government to discuss the conclusions of the report, Setting the Scene for Scotland’s Disabled Children. Mr Hayes: Government have ambitious plans for the [40442] growth of the Apprenticeship programme, but as apprenticeships are real jobs, the number of places David Mundell: I said in my previous answer that I available is determined by employer demand. would be happy to meet the Scottish Government to The Skills Funding Agency and National Apprenticeship discuss the conclusions and recommendations of the Service are working alongside the low carbon sector to above report. make additional Apprenticeship places available where Heathrow: Glasgow there is local demand. Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for It is important that employers take up these opportunities Scotland what discussions he has had with (a) BAA, and offer apprenticeship places to secure a new generation (b) BMI and (c) trade unions on the future of direct of highly skilled employees and we will be encouraging flights between Glasgow and London Heathrow. them to do so. [39391] Carbon Monoxide: Alarms David Mundell: The Secretary of State for Scotland has spoken to the chief executives of BAA and bmi about the future of direct flights between Glasgow Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for and London Heathrow, and intends to have further Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his such discussions. He has raised with both the Department has taken to promote the use of carbon importance of this route to Scottish passengers and we monoxide alarms in residential properties; what plans are monitoring developments during the formal consultation it has for further such steps; and if he will make a bmi is conducting with its employees and the relevant statement. [38071] unions. Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT The Government take gas safety and awareness of carbon monoxide issues very seriously and provides Cambodia: Overseas Aid significant information on government websites and in published information. The Health and Safety Executive Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for (HSE) advises consumers to always use a Gas Safe International Development how much funding his registered engineer for all gas work in their home and to Department has allocated to aid in Cambodia in (a) ensure that any gas appliances are regularly serviced 2010-11 and (b) each of the previous five years. and maintained. HSE also strongly recommends the [40441] use of audible carbon monoxide alarms, but emphasises that they should not be used as a substitute for the Mr Duncan: The Department for International correct installation or maintenance of an appliance. Development’s (DFID’s) bilateral expenditure in Cambodia The Department for Communities and Local Government in each of the five years from 2005-06 to 2009-10 is also require the installation of a carbon monoxide published in ‘Statistics on International Development’ alarm when a new or replacement solid fuel appliance is which is available on the DFID website and in the installed under the obligations set out in the Building Library of the House. The relevant figures are reproduced Regulations in the following table. HSE and Gas Safe Register, the statutory registration scheme for gas engineers, also work to raise consumer DFID bilateral expenditure in Financial year Cambodia (£ million) awareness of the risks of carbon monoxide poisoning and the benefits of carbon monoxide alarms, through 2005-06 13.1 awareness raising promotions and media campaigns. 2006-07 12.4 2007-08 12.8 Citizens Advice Bureaux: Finance 2008-09 17.7 2009-10 15.8 Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Total programme spend in Cambodia in 2010-11 is Business, Innovation and Skills what funding his estimated to be £14.7 million. Final figures for 2010-11 Department provided to Citizens Advice bureaux in will be published in DFID’s annual report in July. England in each financial year from 2001-02 to 2009-10. [39797] BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Mr Davey: BIS provides core grant in aid funding to Apprentices Citizen Advice (CitA), the umbrella body for the Citizen Advice Service in England and Wales. That funding is Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for provided for England and Wales jointly, not separately. Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what proportion of Central Government do not provide funding directly to 489W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 490W individual Citizen Advice Bureaux, core funding for protections and advocacy. This issue is therefore being which is usually provided by the local authority in addressed as part of our Consumer Credit and Personal which they are located. Insolvency Review. Over the previous years BIS has also provided funding The Call for Evidence on this Review has now closed. to Citizen Advice (CitA) under the financial inclusion We have received a considerable number of responses fund (for face to face debt advice project) and under the which we are now considering. If the evidence comes additional hours of advice (AHA) project. Programme out in favour of action, we will not hesitate to act to funding for both ends March 2011. protect the interests of consumers. We will come forward with specific proposals in spring 2011. £ Green Investment Bank BIS core funding Financial Additional hours inclusion fund project

2009/10 21,470,000 18,579,000 7,500,000 Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008/09 21,470,000 17,949,000 2,500,000 Business, Innovation and Skills what consideration he 2007/08 21,470,000 13,071,000 — has given to the location of the headquarters of the [39035] 2006/07 21,470,000 15,443,000 — Green Investment Bank. 2005/06 23,605,000 — — 2004/05 23,855,000 — — Mr Prisk: Decisions on the location of the Green 2003/04 22,920,000 — — Investment Bank’s headquarters will be taken in due 2002/03 17,150,000 — — course and on the grounds of operational effectiveness. 2001/02 17,140,000 — — I should note that we are not currently envisaging an Total 190,550,000 65,042,000 10,000,000 institution with very large staff numbers. Higher Education: Finance Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what funding was Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for provided by his Department to Citizen Advice bureaux Business, Innovation and Skills when the Higher in England in 2010-11. [39796] Education Funding Council for England will announce the (a) subjects which will receive grant funding and (b) levels of such funding from 2012. [39884] Mr Davey: BIS provides core grant in aid funding to Citizen Advice (CitA), the umbrella body for the Citizen Mr Willetts: Our reforms to higher education whereby Advice service in England and Wales. That funding is public funding largely follows the informed choices provided for England and Wales jointly, not separately. made by students rather than direct teaching grants Central Government do not provide funding directly to from the Higher Education Funding Council for England individual Citizen Advice Bureaux, core funding for (HEFCE) are being phased in over three years from the which is usually provided by the local authority in 2012/13 academic year. We said in our grant letter to which they are located. HEFCE that the Council’s future methods for allocating Over the previous years BIS has also provided funding teaching grant would need to be fundamentally reviewed to Citizen Advice (CitA) under the Financial Inclusion and revised as a consequence of those wider funding Fund (for Face to Face Debt Advice project) and under reforms. That review would be informed by our priorities the additional Hours of Advice (AHA) Project. Programme for the remaining teaching grant which we will set out in funding for both ends March 2011. the forthcoming higher education White Paper. Although we gave indicative funding totals in the 2010-11 £ Council’s grant letter issued in December 2011 for the BIS Core Funding 18,943,000 2012-13 financial year those figures will not be confirmed Financial Inclusion Fund 29,320,000 until the 2012 grant letter is issued at the end of this Additional Hours Project 5,310,000 year, in line with the usual annual process. Total 53,573,000 Knowledge Transfer Partnerships

Financial Services: Fees and Charges Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many new Knowledge Transfer Partnerships he expects to be : To ask the Secretary of State for formed in each of the next five years; and if he will Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the make a statement. [39940] Coalition Agreement, page 13, when he plans to bring forward proposals to end unfair bank and financial Mr Willetts: Knowledge Transfer Partnerships (KTPs) transaction charges. [40448] are one of the mechanisms utilised by the Technology Strategy Board to deliver support for business R and D Mr Davey: The Government have committed in the and innovation. The Technology Strategy Board contributes coalition agreement to introduce stronger consumer around 70% of the total annual budget for KTPs, with protections including measures to end unfair bank and the remainder coming from 19 other organisations including financial transaction charges. We have been considering the Research Councils and other Government Departments. how best to take forward this commitment and believe The Technology Strategy Board’s annual budget that it should be done in the context of a wider strategic allocation has not been finalised and it is also currently approach to strengthening and streamlining consumer in the process of developing its strategic plan for the 491W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 492W upcoming spending review period. Until this process is businesses (a) in total and (b) by each regional complete and the business plans of other funders has development agency in each of the last five years; and also been completed, it will not be possible to provide a if he will make a statement. [39522] robust indicator as to the number of Knowledge Transfer Partnerships that will be formed in each of the next five Mr Willetts [holding answer 10 February 2011]: The years. following information has been taken from readily available information collected by regional development agencies Knowledge Transfer Partnerships: Finance (RDAs). There are also other projects and initiatives in which the RDAs have allocated funding, which contain Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for elements relating to innovation, collaboration and Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding was knowledge transfer partnerships between universities allocated to innovation, collaboration and knowledge and businesses. However, RDAs are unable to disaggregate transfer partnerships between universities and this information without incurring disproportionate costs.

RDA 2005/06 2006/07 2007/09 2008/09 2009-10

AWM 1111,552,000 190,143,000 199,769,000 2105,783,000 — ———330,206,000 465,485,371 EEDA 16,887,529 8,628,159 6,485,054 19,958,418 5,552,094 EMDA 12,640,000 14,000,000 18,000,000 9,800,000 15,100,000 LDA 1,529,431 2,268,009 2,515,140 1,340,029 2,301,330 NWDA 27,441,883 38,764,117 19,632,195 32,022,044 30,147,991 ONE 4,394,857 11,161,663 11,276,073 10,909,503 6,121,223 SEEDA 240,000 1,747,000 14,349,162 1,958,089 3,882,000 SWRDA 18,733,309 13,873,365 11,576,811 8,396,163 19,637,241 YF 3,074,772 7,588,025 12,147,165 1,913,032 16,831,431 1 Figures from annual reports and accounts (2005/06, 2006/07 and 2007/08) under the corporate plan definition of Pillar 1—Developing a dynamic and diverse business base. 2 Spend on Corporate Plan theme of Business. 3 Spend on ‘Harnessing Knowledge’ which is included within the Business theme figure. 4 Solutions for Business innovation products.

Open University Expenditure Statistical Analyses Supplementary Material on the Treasury’s website under the heading House of Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Lords Select Committee on the Barnett Formula: Business, Innovation and Skills if he will assess the http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/pespub_pesa10.htm merits of extending the charter for the Open University Updated tables taking account of adjustments since so that it can run specific courses for students in 16 to the publication of the 2010 edition of PESA will be 19 education. [39943] published alongside the next edition of PESA later this year. Mr Willetts: The Government are keen to encourage Information on the block grants paid by the territorial improved choice and access to high quality, learner offices to the devolved Administrations is published centred education and training opportunities for learners alongside the Main and Supplementary Estimates. of all ages. The Open University already offers short higher education courses to sixth form students through its Young Applicants in Schools Scheme. If it wishes to amend its charter to allow for the delivery of courses of Qualifications: Peterborough further education, it may put forward proposals to the Privy Council for consideration. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many residents Public Expenditure of Peterborough city council area had no formal qualifications in each year since 2001. [39537] Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much Barnett Mr Hayes: Estimates of the numbers and proportion consequential funding his Department has provided to of the population with different qualification levels each devolved administration in (a) 2010-11 to date (including no qualifications) at local authority level are and (b) each of the last three years; and with which published annually and can be found at: programmes such funding was associated. [39405] http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_supplementary_tables/ Mr Davey: In the 2010 spending review changes in labour_force_survey_sfr_supplementary_tables/ the DEL budgets of the devolved Administrations were The following table shows the number and percentage determined by the Barnett formula in the normal way. of working age adults in Peterborough city council with The settlements for the years 2011-12 to 2014-15 were no qualifications for each year from 2001 to 2009, published in table 2.22 of the 2010 spending review which includes the most recent data available. These document (Cm 7942). Barnett consequentials relating estimates are taken from the Annual Population Survey to each of the devolved Administrations for the years from 2004 onwards, and its predecessor the Annual 2008-09 to 2010-11 are published as part of the Public Local Area Labour Force Survey from 2001 to 2003. 493W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 494W

Please note that these estimates are subject to large TREASURY sampling variability and should therefore be treated with caution and viewed in conjunction with their Banks: Pay confidence intervals1 (CIs), which indicate how accurate an estimate is. For example, a CI of +/-2.2 percentage Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the points (pp) means that the true value is between 2.2pp Exchequer if he will place in the Library a copy of the above the estimate and 2.2pp below the estimate. document CRD3 Briefing on the Committee of 1 Those given are 95% confidence intervals European Banking Supervisors Guidance on Estimates of people aged 19 to 59(F)/64(M) holding no qualifications in Remuneration Provisions in the Capital Requirements Peterborough city council Directive; and if he will make a statement. [37397] Number Confidence (thousand) Percentage interval Mr Hoban [holding answer 31 January 2011]: The 2001 14 15.4 +/-2.1pp document referred to is an internal document, written 2002 16 16.3 +/-2.1pp by officials for a Minister, as part of the process of 2003 14 15.0 +/-2.1pp policy development and delivery.It is not the Government’s 2004 14 15.4 +/-2.2pp practice to provide details of such documents as its 2005 14 15.1 +/-2.2pp release could prejudice the effective conduct of public 2006 15 16.0 +/-2.2pp affairs. 2007 14 15.1 +/-2.2pp 2008 14 14.8 +/-2.2pp Capital Gains Tax 2009 11 12.1 +/-2.1pp Base: John Stevenson: To ask the Chancellor of the 19-59/64-year-olds, Peterborough city council Exchequer what his estimate is of the amount of Source: Annual Local Area Labour Force Survey (2001-03) and Annual Population capital gains tax raised on the sale of residential Survey (2004-09). properties in (a) 2007-08, (b) 2008-09 and (c) Social Enterprises 2009-10. [37990]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gauke: Capital gains tax paid depends on the Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has taxpayer’s total gains, losses, and reliefs claimed so it is made of turnover in the social enterprise sector in each not possible to attribute amounts of tax to specific region in each of the last five years. [38463] types of asset disposal. The latest estimates available for the number of disposals, Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. disposal value and gains made on assets disposed of in An assessment of the turnover of the social enterprise 2007-08 by type of asset, including residential property, sector in each region in each of the last five years has are in National Statistics table 14.4 on the HM Revenue not been made. The latest official estimates suggest that and Customs website at: small and medium-sized social enterprises make an http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/capital_gains/table14-4.pdf annual contribution of approximately £24 billion to Gross Value Added (GVA). Debts: Advisory Services

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Jessica Morden: To ask the Chancellor of the Business, Innovation and Skills how many social Exchequer when his Department plans to announce enterprises there were in each region in each of the last future plans for funding debt advice following the three years. [38464] ending of the financial inclusion fund. [40184] Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. Mr Hoban: The Government have not yet taken a An assessment of how many social enterprises there decision on the future of the projects currently funded are in each region has not been made. However, the from the FIF, including the face-to-face debt advice latest official estimates from October 2009 suggest that service. We expect to do so soon. there are approximately 62,000 social enterprises in the The Government are committed to helping poorer UK. households to access appropriate financial services, to Students: Loans improve their financial resilience and to avoid falling into unsustainable levels of debt. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what external advice he Departmental Information Officers has received on the potential sale of the student loan book; and what the cost to the public purse was of Pete Wishart: To ask the Chancellor of the obtaining such advice. [39521] Exchequer how many people were employed (a) as press officers, (b) as internal communication officers, Mr Willetts [holding answer 10 February 2011]: The (c) as external communication officers, (d) as Government are undertaking a feasibility study on the communications strategy officers and (e) in other viability of monetising the £30 billion student loan positions with a communications remit by (i) his portfolio. The Government have received investment Department, (ii) its agencies and (iii) each non- banking, legal and accounting advice on a range of departmental public body sponsored by his potential options. The cost of the feasibility study to Department on the most recent date for which figures date has been £700,000. are available. [39372] 495W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 496W

Justine Greening: As part of the Government’s Mr Cash: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) Transparency Agenda, HM Treasury published a with reference to the conclusions of the February 2011 departmental organogram in November 2010. This included European Council, what further steps heads of state or information on the number of people employed in government plan to take in the euro area to achieve a communications roles. This is available on the HMT better quality of economic policy co-ordination; and website: by what means they plan to reconcile the likely effect of http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ such steps with the continued operation of the single hmtgroup_organogram291010.pdf market; [40346] The UK Debt Management Office currently employs (2) with reference to the conclusions of the February two press officers; the roles take up to a third of each of 2011 European Council, on what terms the European their time. Council plans to invite non-euro members to The Asset Protection Agency currently employs one participate in economic policy co-ordination; and (a) full time External Communications Officer. whether and (b) to what extent such members are to be legally bound by such co-ordination. [40347] Departmental Public Expenditure Mr Hoban: The Government welcome the commitment of the Heads of State or government of the euro area Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the and the EU institutions in their statement, annexed to Exchequer how much Barnett consequential funding the European Council conclusions, “to ensure the stability his Department has provided to each devolved of the euro area”. administration in (a) 2010-11 to date and (b) each of the last three years; and with which programmes such In that context, the Government will consider the funding was associated. [39402] merits of any future proposals for euro area economic policy co-ordination as and when they are set out, but Danny Alexander: In the 2010 spending review changes share the view expressed in the statement that any such in the DEL budgets of the devolved administrations co-ordination must not undermine the single market. were determined by the Barnett formula in the normal way. The settlements for the years 2011-12 to 2014-15 Excise Duties were published in table 2.22 of the 2010 spending review document (Cm 7942). Dan Rogerson: To ask the Chancellor of the Barnett consequentials relating to each of the devolved Exchequer (1) how much was paid out through the administrations for the years 2008-09 to 2010-11 are drawback duty regime in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) published as part of the Public Expenditure Statistical 2010; [37281] Analyses Supplementary Material on the Treasury’s (2) what the annual value was of drawback duty website under the heading House of Lords Select fraud in the latest period for which figures are available; Committee on the Barnett Formula: [37352] http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/pespub_pesa10.htm (3) what criteria are required to be met before Updated tables taking account of adjustments since drawback duty is repaid to claimants. [37396] the publication of the 2010 edition of PESA will be published alongside the next edition of PESA later this year. [holding answer 31 January 2011]: Combined amounts paid out through drawback for Information on the block grants paid by the territorial alcohol, tobacco and energy products, from 2008 to offices to the devolved administrations is published 2010, are as follows: alongside the Main and Supplementary Estimates. Amount (£) EU Economic Policy 2008 130,819,897 2009 116,817,787 Mr Cash: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2010 117,442,462 with reference to the conclusions of the February 2011 European Council, what criteria the European Council The best estimate for drawback related fraud is around will use to judge the successful implementation of £25 million per year. existing fiscal programmes with Greece and Ireland. [40345] Drawback claimants must meet a number of criteria before repayment will be made. These include: Mr Hoban: The adjustment programmes are assessed providing HMRC with notification of their intention to claim against compliance with the conditions set out in the drawback; Memoranda of Understanding that Greece and Ireland making the goods available for inspection; and have signed with the IMF and the European Commission. submitting a claim for drawback with supporting evidence These are available from the IMF’s website on: showing: Greece that goods are UK duty paid; http://www.imf.org/external/np/loi/2010/grc/080610.pdf evidence of export where goods are exported to a country and outside the EU; and evidence of receipt and that duty was collected in the member Ireland state of destination where goods are being dispatched to http://www.imf.org/external/np/loi/2010/irl/120310.pdf another EU member state. 497W Written Answers11 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 498W

Excise Duties: Fuels business, have a personal current accounts market share of no more than 14% in the UK. UKFI manages the Jessica Morden: To ask the Chancellor of the Government’s investments on financial institutions as Exchequer (1) what discussions (a) he and (b) an active and engaged shareholder, operating on a Ministers in his Department have had with commercial basis and at arm’s length from Government. representatives of the logistics industry to discuss the Subject to complying with the terms of the state aid likely effects of scheduled fuel duty rises in the last six agreement with the European Commission, the sales months; [40337] are being managed and led by each firm’s independent (2) if he will assess the likely effects of the planned management team with a view to maximizing shareholder fuel duty rise on (a) the logistics industry and (b) value, including that of the Government. other businesses in Wales from April 2011. [40338] Revenue and Customs: Procurement

Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the : To ask the Chancellor of the answer given to the hon. Member for Glasgow North Exchequer if he will publish the list of companies East (Mr Bain) on 24 January 2011, Official Report, shortlisted by HM Revenue and Customs to tender for column 117W. The Government routinely discuss tax the contract to provide print services as its preferred matters with industry stakeholders and assesses a range print vendor partner. [39795] of factors. The Chancellor keeps all taxes under review along Budget timelines. Mr Gauke: HMRC are currently engaged in a formal Inheritance Tax procurement process and issued the invitation to tender (ITT) to nine shortlisted suppliers on 7 February 2011. It would be inappropriate on grounds of commercial John Stevenson: To ask the Chancellor of the confidentiality to name shortlisted suppliers at this Exchequer how much revenue was raised from time. On conclusion of the process, the name of the inheritance tax in (a) 2007-08, (b) 2008-09 and (c) successful supplier will be publicly announced. 2009-10. [37929] The ITT also specifies that during the procurement Mr Gauke: Receipts from inheritance tax in 2007-08, process, shortlisted tenderers should not disclose that 2008-09 and 2009-10 are published in the National they have been shortlisted. Statistics table “HM Revenue and Customs Receipts” UK Financial Investments available from the HMRC website at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tax_receipts/tax-receipts-and- Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer taxpayers.pdf what assessment he has made of the performance of Lloyds Banking Group: Sales UK Financial Investments Ltd in meeting its objectives of promoting competition. [40445] Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in respect of the forthcoming sale of assets of Lloyds Mr Hoban: The banks in which the Government have Banking Group in which UK Financial Investments an investment are managed on an arm’s length and has a significant holding, if he will maintain the commercial basis by UK Financial Investments (UKFI). position of the previous administration that such UKFI’s mandate is to develop and execute a strategy institutions will not be sold to any of the existing major for disposing of the Government’s investments in financial companies in the UK banking industry. [40447] institutions in an orderly and active way, within the context of protecting and creating value for the taxpayer Mr Hoban: As a condition of EU state aid approval as shareholder and paying due regard to the maintenance for the aid they have received, Lloyds Banking Group of financial stability and to acting in a way that promotes (LBG) are required to execute a UK retail divestment competition. amounting to a 4.6% market share of the personal The Government are determined that the investments current accounts market and at least 600 branches. The in financial institutions do not prevent or distort effective terms of the state aid agreement commit that the buyer competition, or contravene normal merger control or of the divestment must, in combination with the divestment competition law restrictions. WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Friday 11 February 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 19WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Government Response to the House of Lords AFFAIRS...... 21WS Constitution Committee’s Report Agriculture and Fisheries Council (24 January) ..... 21WS (Parliamentary Voting System and Forestry Commission England (2011-12 Asset Constituencies Bill) ...... 19WS Sales Programme) ...... 21WS

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 23WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 19WS G6 Meeting (Krakow)...... 23WS Local Authority Publicity ...... 19WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 24WS EDUCATION...... 20WS Uprating Private Sector Occupational Pensions School Capital ...... 20WS (Revised Impact Assessment)...... 24WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Friday 11 February 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 487W DEFENCE—continued Apprentices...... 487W Royal Armoured Corps...... 455W Carbon Monoxide: Alarms...... 488W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 456W Citizens Advice Bureaux: Finance...... 488W Financial Services: Fees and Charges...... 489W EDUCATION...... 447W Green Investment Bank ...... 490W Departmental Libraries...... 447W Higher Education: Finance ...... 490W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 447W Knowledge Transfer Partnerships ...... 490W Knowledge Transfer Partnerships: Finance...... 491W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 456W Open University...... 491W Energy: Natural Gas ...... 456W Public Expenditure...... 491W Fuel Oil...... 456W Qualifications: Peterborough ...... 492W Renewable Energy: Heating ...... 457W Social Enterprises...... 493W Wind Power: Subsidies...... 457W Students: Loans ...... 493W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL CABINET OFFICE...... 482W AFFAIRS...... 466W Big Society Bank...... 482W Aviation: Noise ...... 466W Big Society Initiative ...... 482W Birds: Conservation ...... 467W Public Service: Contractors...... 483W Departmental Written Questions ...... 467W Speech Therapy...... 483W Fisheries...... 467W Transition Fund ...... 484W Fossil Fuels: Exploration ...... 468W Nature Reserves ...... 468W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 469W Sites of Special Scientific Interest...... 468W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 469W Water: EU Law ...... 469W Housing: Construction...... 470W Social Rented Housing...... 471W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 464W Anti-Semitism...... 464W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 471W BBC External Services ...... 464W Departmental Security ...... 471W British High Commission Dhaka...... 464W Government Art Collection ...... 471W Embassies: Finance...... 464W Ofcom: Consultants ...... 472W European Council ...... 465W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 473W Somalia: Politics and Government ...... 465W Olympic Games 2012: Contracts...... 473W Telecommunications: Visual Impairment...... 473W HEALTH...... 474W Bowel Cancer: Health Services...... 474W DEFENCE...... 447W Departmental Freedom of Information ...... 475W Armed Forces: Education ...... 447W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 475W Army...... 448W Doctors: Training...... 476W Caribbean: Navy ...... 449W Doncaster and Bassetlaw Hospitals NHS Defence: Procurement...... 451W Foundation Trust...... 476W Departmental Procurement...... 452W Family Planning...... 476W EU Defence Policy ...... 453W General Practitioners ...... 477W European Defence Agency...... 453W General Practitioners: Disclosure of Information .. 477W France: Military Alliances...... 453W General Practitioners: Telephone Services...... 477W Low Flying: Compensation...... 454W Health Services: Foreign Workers ...... 478W Military Bases...... 455W Living Wills...... 478W Rescue Services ...... 455W Myasthenias...... 478W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued TRANSPORT—continued Palliative Care: Children ...... 479W Sea Rescue: Northern Ireland ...... 446W Palliative Care: Drugs ...... 480W Shipping: Inspections...... 446W Sickle Cell Diseases: Screening...... 480W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 446W

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 480W TREASURY ...... 494W Alcoholic Drinks: Crime...... 480W Banks: Pay ...... 494W Anti-Semitism...... 481W Capital Gains Tax ...... 494W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 482W Debts: Advisory Services...... 494W Departmental Information Officers ...... 494W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 457W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 495W Art Works ...... 457W EU Economic Policy...... 495W Excise Duties...... 496W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 497W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 487W Inheritance Tax...... 497W Cambodia: Overseas Aid ...... 487W Lloyds Banking Group: Sales...... 497W Revenue and Customs: Procurement...... 498W JUSTICE...... 484W UK Financial Investments ...... 498W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 484W Land Registry ...... 485W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 458W Prosecutions: Animal Welfare ...... 485W Child Benefit...... 458W Victims and Witnesses: Voluntary Organisations ... 486W Cold Weather Payments: Dartford ...... 458W Departmental Procurement...... 459W SCOTLAND...... 486W Departmental Security ...... 459W Disability: Children...... 487W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 459W Disability Living Allowance...... 486W Employment: Kirkcaldy...... 459W Heathrow: Glasgow ...... 487W Employment: Scotland...... 460W Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit: TRANSPORT ...... 443W Osteoarthritis...... 460W Bus Lanes ...... 443W New Deal Schemes: Wirral...... 460W Motor Vehicles: Licensing...... 443W New Enterprise Allowance Scheme: Peterborough. 460W Network Rail: Electrification ...... 443W Pension Credit...... 461W Railways: Franchising ...... 444W Remploy: Pay...... 461W Railways: Lowestoft...... 444W Social Security Benefits...... 462W Rescue Services: Helicopters ...... 444W Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations..... 462W Rolling Stock: North West ...... 445W State Retirement Pensions: Females ...... 463W Sea Rescue: Information and Communications Universal Credit: Livingston...... 463W Technology ...... 445W Work Capability Assessment: Telephone Services .. 463W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Friday 11 February 2011

Protection of Freedoms [Col. 598] Bill presented, and read the First time

Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill [Col. 599] Motion for Second Reading—(Harriet Baldwin)—on a Division, agreed to

Planning (Opencast Mining Separation Zones) Bill [Col. 647] Motion for Second Reading—(Andrew Bridgen)

Cleveland Fire Authority [Col. 673] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 19WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 443W] [see index inside back page]