Vol. 752 Tuesday No. 115 11 February 2014

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Legal Aid...... 529 Economy: Growth ...... 531 Food and Soft Drink Industry: Sugar ...... 534 Sudan ...... 536 Reading Clerk Announcement of Successor ...... 538 Business of the House Motion to Agree...... 538 Refreshment Membership Motion ...... 539 Pensions Bill Order of Consideration Motion ...... 539 Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Green Deal) (Amendment) Order 2014 Motion to Approve ...... 539 Localism Act 2011 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2014 Motion to Approve ...... 539 Water Bill Committee (3rd Day) ...... 540 Chilcot Inquiry Question for Short Debate...... 605 Water Bill Committee (3rd Day) (Continued) ...... 619

Grand Committee Defence Reform Bill Committee (3rd Day)...... GC 229

Written Statements...... WS 47 Written Answers ...... WA 107

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Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD): My Lords, before House of Lords the Bill was introduced, the Government said that they were expecting 5,000 to 7,000 applications a year. Tuesday, 11 February 2014. In fact, in the first year there were 893, of which only 23 were granted, which represents 1%. Is it not nonsense 2.30 pm to suggest that this provision is a safety net for those who seek justice? Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Worcester. Lord Faulks: I can update the noble Lord by saying that in fact the total number of applications received is Legal Aid now 1,030, and the number granted is 31. I agree that Question it is a small percentage. It was difficult for the Government to predict exactly how many applications would be 2.36 pm received. In fact, in some areas, including the area in Asked by Lord Bach which I practised, that of clinical negligence, there have been virtually none when it was expected that To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment there would be very many. Trying to anticipate what they have made of the extent to which Section 10 of might or might not be considered to be a violation of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Article 6 has confounded many courts, not only in this Offenders Act 2012, dealing with “exceptional cases”, country but also in Strasbourg. is working as intended. Lord Woolf (CB): My Lords, perhaps what the The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) Minister has just said indicates that I may have been (Con): My Lords, the Government consider that the right when I differed as a judge from my distinguished exceptional funding scheme is working effectively. predecessor, Lord Bingham. He took a narrow view of We are monitoring its operation and will continue to the word “exceptional” while I took a very broad view do so. of it. I regard it as a word which should be used to ensure justice in all cases where justice is required. Lord Bach (Lab): My Lords, I thank the Minister Does the noble Lord agree with my approach? for his Answer as far as it goes. Parliament and the public were told time after time to believe that Section 10 Lord Faulks: The answer to the noble and learned would act as a safety net for those cases where it was Lord is that it depends very much on the context in manifestly unfair that the citizen should not have which “exceptional” is used. The context in which it is access to civil legal aid. However, the application used in this particular section is by specific reference forms are impossible for a non-lawyer to complete and to the European Convention on Human Rights. a lawyer will not get paid a penny if the claim for legal aid is unsuccessful. Even worse is the fact that only in 3% of claims has legal aid ever been granted. Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, in answer to a The noble Lord was a member of the JCHR which, recent Written Question from me, the Minister said along with the Low Commission and many others, has that there had been 1,130 applications, of which 35 were recently criticised the working of this provision. Now granted, not the figures that he has given today. Be that he is a distinguished member of Her Majesty’s that as it may, what was the Government’s estimate of Government, will he act to make this vital provision fit the number of successful applications and what did for purpose? they anticipate would be the proportion of successful applications? Given that it has taken 14 months to reach a decision to grant legal aid in an important Lord Faulks: The provisions contained in Section 10 inquest case in which counsel appeared four times of the LASPO Act make it perfectly clear that it is without any certainty of being paid, will the Government there for exceptional cases where, in the absence of publish details of the times taken to determine legal aid, there would be a violation of Article 6 of the applications? European Convention on Human Rights or possibly of the provisions of the European Union. It is not about whether a case may be deserving; it has to fall Lord Faulks: In answer to the second part of the specifically within the confines of the section. As to noble Lord’s question, the Government will be happy the application form, it was consulted on regularly to publish the times taken. Indeed, I think that the and in detail before it became part of the process. I am noble Lord will be pleasantly surprised at how quickly surprised that solicitors are having difficulty in filling these applications are being processed. In answer to it in. It is possible for someone to fill in the form on the first part of his question, it was expected that some their own and they can then have a preliminary view 3,700 would be funded each year. As I said in answer given to them by the Legal Aid Agency as to the to an earlier question, it is somewhat mysterious as to prospects of success. It is true that the number of why so few have qualified. Each case is considered applications has been much lower than expected and it separately by the Legal Aid Agency in accordance is also true that very few have been granted, but we are with guidelines given by the Lord Chancellor. All satisfied that the system is working in accordance with those doing this work are experienced and all of them the section. follow the guidelines. 531 Legal Aid[LORDS] Economy: Growth 532

Lord Pannick (CB): My Lords, the noble Lord said Lord Spicer (Con): Does my noble friend agree that that Section 10 is working effectively. Will he give further there is a great difference between the two economies, consideration to the recommendation of the Low and that this provides one reason why the Governor of Commission, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Low of the Bank of England was so right when he said that it Dalston, that the application process for Section 10 is would be virtually impossible for an independent Scotland much in need of simplification? Will the Government to keep the pound? Indeed, is it not the case that if act on the concern expressed by the Joint Committee Scotland does fly the nest, it will not take many eggs on Human Rights about the lack of training for Legal with it? Aid Agency employees who are responsible for making decisions about Section 10? Lord Newby: My Lords, there is increasing evidence from the business community that it believes that its Lord Faulks: The Government are aware of the involvement in the Scottish economy would be reduced JCHR’s concern about the lack of training. I have were Scotland to become independent; for example, in been reassured that the employees are appropriately recent weeks, Bob Dudley from BP has said that there trained and aware of their responsibilities. In terms of would be “big uncertainties” about its continuing the forms, I give the same answer that I gave before, investment in Scotland. He is just one of a number of which is that the matter is kept under review. It is representatives of major firms who have questioned believed that the forms are perfectly within the capabilities their long-term involvement in the Scottish economy of solicitors to understand. If one of these forms is if Scotland became independent. inadequately filled in, you are told, whereas with some forms in other contexts you never know which box you Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab): My Lords, the SNP failed to tick. White Paper said that, Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD): My Lords, can the “Scottish taxes will fit our distinctive social context”. Minister say whether any research has been done into That seems curious and inexplicable, but does the the number of cases of citizens who would wish to Minister agree that in terms of the social context the make applications but are unable to find anybody single market between Scotland and England is crucial, to help them in making those applications? since more than 70% of Scottish exports go to England and any disruption of that market will result in instability Lord Faulks: I think it is approximately 61. I will and will not be in the interests of either Scotland or have to write to my noble friend with the precise the rest of the United Kingdom? number who actually made applications. Very often they are given a preliminary view, which they can then Lord Newby: My Lords, I absolutely agree with the take to a solicitor, who will then be able, if he has been noble Lord. The Treasury has done some work on given some encouraging words, to take the matter the so-called border effect: what happens to growth if forward. the Scottish economy and those of the rest of the UK are separated by a border. Its best estimate was that Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): My Lords, over a period of several decades, the Scottish economy will the noble Lord reassure the House, in view of the could be about 4% poorer than would otherwise be very small number of applicants who have been successful, the case, compared to a reduction in the rest of the that the Government have no plans to withdraw the UK economy of 0.2%. There are much bigger risks for funding before people have figured out how to fill in the Scottish economy through independence than there the forms? are for the rest of the UK, but both sides would suffer.

Lord Faulks: I can give that reassurance. Baroness Wheatcroft (Con): My Lords, can my noble friend tell us what would happen to the BBC in the Economy: Growth event of Scottish independence? Question Lord Newby: My Lords, I am not sure I can, but 2.45 pm that demonstrates how difficult it will be to manage the independence process. There are so many parts of Asked by Lord Spicer what we take for granted in the way that we do things To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their in the UK that would have to be severed; for example, latest projections for the economic growth of (1) one has only to think about the value of having an the British, and (2) the Scottish, economy in 2014. integrated BBC to see that if it were severed, how much of a loss that would be to everybody, whether Lord Newby (LD): My Lords, the Office for Budget they were in Scotland or the rest of the UK. Responsibility is responsible for producing independent economic and fiscal forecasts for the UK economy. Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, it is quite The OBR published a full analysis of the prospects for clear that the defence of our islands will be considerably economic growth, employment and inflation in its weakened if the Scots vote for separation. Does the forecast at the Autumn Statement. The OBR forecast Minister also agree that there will be a huge economic for the UK is that the UK economy will grow by 2.4% impact from defence firms inevitably moving south of in 2014. The OBR does not make separate forecasts the border because there will be almost no orders for for the countries that make up the UK. defence equipment in Scotland? 533 Economy: Growth[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Food and Soft Drink Industry: Sugar 534

Lord Newby: My Lords, that just seems one of the Food and Soft Drink Industry: Sugar many inevitable consequences were independence to Question take place. 2.52 pm Lord Razzall (LD): My Lords, going back to the Asked by Baroness Morgan of Ely Scottish banking system, does my noble friend believe that Alex Salmond is behind the suggestion that RBS To ask Her Majesty’s Government what would relocate to England in the event of independence, representations they have made to the food and drink as had the last taxpayer bailout occurred in an independent industry about reducing levels of sugar in processed Scotland it would clearly have bankrupted the Scottish products in the United Kingdom. economy? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): My Lords, through the Lord Newby: My Lords, the noble Lord may be public health responsibility deal calorie reduction pledge, right. An independent Scotland would have banking food and soft drink companies are taking a range of assets equivalent to 1,254% of Scottish GDP—more actions to reduce calories, including sugar, in their than Ireland, Iceland and Cyprus when they ran into products. Currently 38 businesses are signed up to the banking difficulties. pledge. We are working across the industry to encourage further sign-up. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): My Lords, does the Minister recall that Alex Salmond used to be an Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab): My Lords, five out economist with the RBS? Does that not say everything? of eight members of the carbohydrate working group Will the Minister confirm that economic growth in on nutrition which advises the Government have direct Scotland in the third quarter of 2013 was much the links to the food and drink industry. Does that explain same as economic growth in the United Kingdom, why it has taken five years for this group to report? which shows that devolution is working, that Scotland Can the Minister explain why we do not simply follow is getting the best of both worlds and that we are in the position of the World Health Organisation, which fact, to coin a phrase, better together? is expected to report that people’s energy from added sugar should be reduced from the current recommended level of 10% to 5%? Lord Newby: My Lords, I agree. For example, it is very interesting, looking at what has been happening Earl Howe: My Lords, the reason that we meet the to unemployment not just over the past few months food industry is to ask it to do more than it is doing at but over the past couple of decades, that in the 1990s the moment. If that is what the noble Baroness means unemployment in Scotland was slightly higher than by the Government’s links to the food industry, then I it was here. In recent years, and particularly in the make no apology for them. Our current emphasis is on past few quarters, it has been slightly lower. It shows overall calorie reduction, of which sugar can form a that Scotland, while moving broadly in line with the part. The scope for reformulation to reduce sugar UK, can do better than the rest of the UK, as it has levels varies widely depending on the food, and a done in a number of respects. It is quite difficult to reduction in sugar levels does not always mean that see how it could replicate that pattern if it were the overall calorie content is reduced. The Scientific independent. Advisory Committee on Nutrition is currently undertaking a review of carbohydrates, as part of which it is looking at sugar. Its report will inform our future Lord Kilclooney (CB): My Lords, Scotland, like thinking. Northern Ireland and Wales, receives an annual block grant. Can the Minister confirm that the block grant to Scotland is now £30 billion per year, and that Baroness Brinton (LD): It is shocking that a 375-gram should Scotland become independent, the people of portion of Sharwood’s sweet and sour chicken with Scotland would lose that £30 billion? rice contains six teaspoons of sugar. Some of our supermarkets, notably Waitrose, are working with their suppliers to reduce the amount of sugar in processed Lord Newby: My Lords, it is not quite as food, but many are not. What steps are the Government straightforward as that. There are, for example, great taking to ensure that all supermarkets and suppliers arguments about the division of oil revenues. This follow those setting a good example and reduce the has to be set against the block grant that Scotland amount of sugar, as well as clearly labelling sugar, in gets. When looking at the economic consequences of their processed foods? independence, you have to look a long time in the future, not just a year or two. Independence is not for Earl Howe: My noble friend raises a series of important Christmas—it is a long-term business. The question issues. I can tell her some encouraging news on this for everyone in Scotland is not whether we are going front. Sainsbury’s and Tesco, for example, have pledged to be better off in six months or a year or five years, to reduce the sugar content in their own-brand soft but where we are going to be 10, 20 or 50 years down drinks. We are asking other supermarkets to follow the line, because once you have done this, you cannot suit. I think that the noble Baroness will be aware that reverse it. Lidl made an encouraging gesture the other day in 535 Food and Soft Drink Industry: Sugar[LORDS] Sudan 536

[EARL HOWE] on smoking in cars. A number of soft drinks companies pledging not to display sweets at till exits. However, we have taken action to reduce calorie content in their are working across a range of areas, not just reformulation drinks. Coca-Cola has reformulated its Sprite product. of food but pack size, introducing low-sugar or no-sugar AG Barr pledged to reduce the average calorific content alternatives, and looking at ways in which food is in its portfolio of drinks. I have mentioned Sainsbury’s promoted. and Tesco’s actions on their own brands. Premier Foods has reformulated various products and reduced Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab): Will the Minister sugar in those. Therefore, we are making headway and please explain why in his first Answer he referred only I think that the responsibility deal is proving its worth. to the food and soft drinks industry? Why did he not refer to the alcoholic drinks industry? Is it not true that, in the 130 meetings which the Government have Lord Patel (CB): Does the Minister think it might had with the drinks industry since 2010, no progress be advisable to ask the Government’s Scientific Advisory whatever has been made on persuading it voluntarily Committee on Nutrition to define a standard of added to show calorific effects and sugar content on the sugar that should not be exceeded in 100 millilitres of labels of its products? fluid or 100 grams of food?

Earl Howe: No, my Lords, that is not so. Ninety-two Earl Howe: I believe that I am right in saying that producers and retailers committed through the the experts would advise that it depends on the product responsibility deal to having 80% of bottles and cans that we are looking at. One cannot make a blanket on sale in the UK displaying unit and health information rule for every type of food and drink. and a pregnancy warning by the end of 2013. The three elements that industry has committed to display on labels are: the drink’s unit content, the Government’s Sudan guidelines for lower-risk drinking, and pregnancy warnings. I argue with the noble Lord that this is Question progress. 3pm The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, while I Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool support the need to reduce the level of sugar in processed food wherever possible, I am concerned that To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their this alone will do little to improve the nation’s health assessment of the humanitarian situation in Darfur or deal with the problem of obesity. What progress are and other parts of the Republic of Sudan following the Department for Education and the Department of the decision of the Government of Sudan to suspend Health making on reducing the number of calories in the work of the International Committee of the meals served in schools, and what progress is being Red Cross. made on increasing the level of physical activities for the pupils in our schools? Baroness Northover (LD): Around 3.5 million people Earl Howe: My Lords, tackling obesity calls for in Darfur are in need of humanitarian assistance, action by the widest possible range of partners, including including around 380,000 people who were displaced the food industry but also including schools. That is in 2013. The suspension of the ICRC’s work therefore what we are trying to do through the responsibility comes at a critical time, as it supports more than a deal. Our National Child Measurement Programme, million people. We are seriously concerned about the the School Food Plan, the School Games and the impact of this decision on them. money that we are putting into school sports funding— £150 million a year—all contribute to the joint effort Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, I thank across government to influence the way in which calories the noble Baroness for that reply. Will she confirm are consumed by children. I have encouraging news on that in the 10 years that have elapsed since I described that front, which is that the level of child obesity is to your Lordships’ House the conditions in the refugee now the lowest that it has been since 1998, so we are camps in Darfur, some 2 million people have been moving in the right direction. displaced and between 200,000 and 300,000 people have died there? Some 57 peacekeepers and UNAMID Lord Ribeiro (Con): My Lords, I congratulate the personnel have been murdered, with no consequences noble Earl on leading on the successful amendment in for those responsible, while humanitarian agencies are this House which led to the vote going through the expelled and aerial bombardment continues unabated, other place yesterday on smoking in cars. Can he both in Darfur and in Kordofan. Why, while these further protect children by tackling the issues around serial violations occur, do we use British resources to obesity? What are the Government doing to encourage pay off Sudan’s debts? Why, as we approach the fifth the soft drinks industry to take action on calorie anniversary of the indictment for crimes against humanity reduction as part of the responsibility deal? of Field Marshal Omar al-Bashir, the President of Sudan, can he travel abroad with impunity and continue Earl Howe: My Lords, I think that the compliment to control vast personal and commercial interests while should be paid to my noble friend Lord Ribeiro for the openly boasting that 2014 will be the year that he will part that he played in bringing about the amendment finish off what he began in Darfur 10 years ago? 537 Sudan[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Business of the House 538

Baroness Northover: My Lords, I pay tribute to the Baroness Northover: We are not negotiating any debt noble Lord for the spotlight that he has focused on the relief with the Government of Sudan. As the noble situation in Sudan. He is right about the dire situation Lord probably knows, that has to be achieved through of many of the people there. We have no doubt about the Heavily Indebted Poor Countries process. the serious shortcomings of the Khartoum Government. The UK Government’s primary and only concern is Lord Elton (Con): My Lords, will my noble friend the welfare of the Sudanese people. Our engagement tell us why it is unlikely that a second resolution could and support is driven by what will make a difference to be achieved, what we are doing to change that situation them. We cannot walk away and we work at every level and what other means there are to bring this terrible to try to secure the kind of humanitarian access that is man to justice? required, as illustrated by what the noble Lord said. We are not paying off the debt of the Sudanese Baroness Northover: My Lords, if we could deliver Government. what is already there, that would be a signal achievement, and we are doing our best to achieve that. The noble Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead (Lab): My Lords, Lord will be aware that the aim to ensure that the dire President al-Bashir has been indicted by the ICC for situation of those in Sudan is addressed means that multiple charges of crimes against humanity and genocide often one has to negotiate at every level of government in Darfur, yet this cruel and vicious man is free to to try to ensure that Sudan does not hold its people to enjoy power and wealth while his regime’s oppression, ransom as we try to get humanitarian aid in. corruption and aerial bombardments continue. Will the Minister give the House a clear undertaking that Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl): My Lords— the UK will not follow the lead of the Netherlands and support calls being made for debt relief for a regime that does not care about the poverty and Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB): My Lords, have misery inflicted on Sudanese people? other aid organisations also been banned? It is most extraordinary that the Red Cross has been banned as it is a non-religious, non-political organisation. Baroness Northover: We emphasise all the time that the Government of Sudan are responsible for meeting Baroness Northover: We are hoping that the ICRC the needs of their own people. My right honourable will be able to deliver the humanitarian relief that it friend the Minister for Africa raised a number of key was delivering before. Negotiations are at a delicate issues relating to the areas the noble Baroness is talking stage. A number of other international organisations about with the Government of Sudan and key regional are working with enormous difficulty in the area, figures in a visit last month and at the recent AU some with greater reach than others. Some are still summit. there, but a number have had to pull back.

Lord Avebury (LD): My Lords, will my noble friend acknowledge that the Government of Sudan, led by Reading Clerk an alleged war criminal, as has been said, has embarked Announcement of Successor on the genocidal starvation of the population of South Kordofan and Blue Nile by denying all humanitarian 3.07 pm access to these states, and by the systematic destruction The Lord Speaker (Baroness D’Souza): My Lords, from the air of their agriculture? Could fresh charges following the announcement of the retirement of the be laid against al-Bashir at the International Criminal Reading Clerk, Rhodri Walters, at the end of this Court in respect of these crimes? Will the Government month, I chaired a board yesterday to select his successor. think of convening an international conference on the Three candidates were interviewed, and the successful means of deterring the bombings, including the use of candidate was Simon Burton. At the appropriate time, drones against aircraft used for that purpose? I shall invite the House to approve his appointment, but I am sure that, meanwhile, your Lordships will Baroness Northover: As indicated by the previous wish to join me in congratulating Simon on his new question, the Government of Sudan have a clear obligation appointment. to co-operate with the International Criminal Court in terms of Security Council Resolution 1593 and have repeatedly failed to do so. We continue to make Business of the House clear to the Government of Sudan that we expect Motion to Agree compliance with the arrest warrants for the ICC indictees. The noble Lord mentioned further challenges and 3.08 pm a possible new Security Council resolution. I must tell him that we think it is unlikely that that will be Moved by Lord Hill of Oareford achievable at the moment, but obviously we take very That the Question for Short Debate in the name seriously the reports that are coming through to us. of Lord Mawson, set down for Wednesday 12 February, be advanced to after that in the name of Baroness Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab): My Lords, will Jones of Moulsecoomb. the Government refuse to be part—directly or indirectly —of any debt relief operation? Motion agreed. 539 Refreshment[LORDS] Water Bill 540

Refreshment Water Bill Membership Motion Committee (3rd Day)

3.08 pm 3.09 pm Moved by The Chairman of Committees Relevant document: 20th Report from the Delegated Powers Committee. That Lord Fink be appointed a member of the Select Committee in place of Lord Howard of Rising, resigned. Amendment 154 Moved by Lord Whitty Motion agreed. 154: After Clause 50, insert the following new Clause— “Onshore oil or gas activities: effect on water environment Pensions Bill In Part 1 of Schedule 5 to the Environmental Permitting Order of Consideration Motion (England and Wales) Regulations 2010 there shall be inserted after paragraph 13— 3.08 pm “Onshore oil or gas activities—effect on water environment Moved by Lord Bates 13A (1) Without prejudice to the operation of Regulation 35(2) and paragraph 5(1)(d) of Schedule 10 and of Regulation 35(2) That the amendments for the Report stage be and paragraph 7(j) of Schedule 20, the regulator shall refuse an marshalled and considered in the following order: application for the grant or variation of an environmental permit or for the transfer in whole or in part of an environmental permit Clauses 1 to 5, Schedules 1 and 2, Clauses 6 and if— 7, Schedules 3 and 4, Clauses 8 and 9, Schedule 5, (a) the regulated facility to which the application for or Clauses 10 and 11, Schedule 6, Clause 12, Schedule 7, transfer of the environmental permit relates is to be Clause 13, Schedules 8 and 9, Clause 14, Schedule 10, carried on as part of an onshore oil or gas activity; and Clause 15, Schedule 11, Clauses 16 to 23, Schedule 12, (b) the regulator is not satisfied that the applicant or the Clause 24, Schedules 13 and 14, Clause 25, Schedule 15, proposed transferee has made or will make adequate Clauses 26 to 31, Schedule 16, Clauses 32 and 33, financial provision for preventing or mitigating pollution Schedule 17, Clauses 34 to 43, Schedule 18, Clauses 44 of the water environment, by ensuring all of the following— and 45, Schedule 19, Clauses 46 to 49, Schedule 20, (i) operation of the regulated facility in accordance Clauses 50 to 56. with the environmental permit; (ii) compliance with any enforcement notice or suspension Motion agreed. notice or prohibition notice or mining waste facility closure notice or landfill closure notice which may be served on the applicant or transferee by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Green Deal) regulator under these Regulations; (iii) compliance with any order of the High Court (Amendment) Order 2014 which may be obtained against the applicant or Motion to Approve transferee under Regulation 42 for the purpose of securing compliance with any of the notices listed 3.08 pm in sub-paragraph (ii); (iv) compliance with any order of any court issued Moved by Baroness Verma under Regulation 44 against the applicant or transferee; That the draft order laid before the House on and 9 January be approved. (v) recovery by the regulator of its costs upon any exercise of its power against the applicant or transferee Relevant document: 18th Report from the Joint under Regulation 57; Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in (c) for the purpose of this paragraph “onshore oil or gas Grand Committee on 4 February. activity” means any activity for the purpose of exploration for or extraction of onshore oil and gas; Motion agreed. (d) for the purpose of this paragraph “adequate provision by way of financial security” means financial provision which is sufficient in value, secure and available when Localism Act 2011 (Consequential required.”.” Amendments) Order 2014 Motion to Approve Lord Whitty (Lab): My Lords, before we get on to this afternoon’s main business of flood insurance, I 3.08 pm have down one amendment, relating to environmental regulation, which concerns the effect that fracking will Moved by Baroness Stowell of Beeston have on the water supply system. This has been a That the draft order laid before the House on major concern in another place for a number of Members 7 January be approved. of Parliament, who have local problems about the impact that any major expansion of fracking might Relevant document: 17th Report from the Joint have on watercourses and water supplies. Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 4 February. I do not intend, this afternoon, to open up the whole debate on the importance or otherwise of fracking, Motion agreed. what its effects might be and whether we could repeat, 541 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 542 in the UK and Europe, the experience of the United have to ensure that the polluter can pay. In both coal States. For what it is worth, I doubt that it will be and nuclear, it has in effect fallen to the taxpayer to transformational, but it will be important and will pay for the clear-up over the past few decades, and produce some significant gas and oil in this country. that is still going on. That will need to be tightly regulated by the Environment Agency, the HSE and local planning systems. In particular, 3.15 pm water supplies and watercourses will need to be protected The fracking of shale gas is likely to benefit the and, if anything goes wrong, fracking companies will companies involved with substantial tax concessions have to be seen to be clearly liable. and, whether rightly or wrongly, the companies involved On the relationship between fracking and the water expect to make substantial profits from fracking. Those supplies, there are three main issues. First, there could companies really should be required to show not only be pollutants released, potentially, into water systems that they will make their best efforts to meet all the and aquifers by the fracking process—that is, the environmental quality and safety regulatory requirements chemicals contained in the fluids that are used in the but also that, if something goes wrong, they have the hydraulic fracturing process. There are also naturally ability to cover potential liabilities. occurring contaminants which could be released from The proposed clause would amend the environmental the shale itself, including naturally occurring radioactive permitting regime to include as a condition that companies contaminants. There could also be fugitive emissions intending to engage in fracking show, right at the released into ground-water, particularly of methane. beginning, that they will have the funds to meet clean-up All of those could have serious effects on water quality, costs, should pollution incidents occur to ground-water, ecology, habitats and water supply. To a greater or aquifers and water supplies. This terminology is not lesser extent, all have been experienced in the United that different from existing financial requirements under States, although on a limited basis. the landfill regulations and landfill directive, which are Secondly, if the fracking industry develops on any administered by the Environment Agency. The new scale, for the purposes of shale extraction fracking will clause would allow the regulator to refuse a permit, also require major abstraction of water from the system. “if … the regulator is not satisfied that the applicant … has made As we have already stressed in previous days in Committee, or will make adequate financial provision for preventing or mitigating the urgency of reform of the abstraction system needs pollution of the water environment”. to take into account the impact of mass fracking on Surely that is the minimum that our communities and abstraction levels and hence on already stressed our water supply system should expect from those catchments. This is linked to amendments we discussed who are involved, or potentially involved, in fracking. the other day. For example, if fracking companies take If the companies cannot afford such financial provision, up the headroom in existing licences in particular they really should not be in this business. I beg to catchments, then a lot of catchments could be in move. serious trouble if they are not already. Thirdly, there is the requirement for the cleaning Lord Oxburgh (CB): My Lords, I have a question and treatment of the water that has been used in for the Minister in this general area. Does he feel that fracking, which will need to be decontaminated. this proposed regulatory environment would cover Amendment 154 really focuses on the first of these cases in which fracking companies pipe sea-water on effects, and to some extent the third, but all three are to land and then either dispose of it on land or, indeed, important for the water system and need to be taken discharge it back into the sea? If it does not, it should. into account. It is vital that we protect ground and I have a brief comment on what the noble Lord, surface water. For example, in the south of England, Lord Whitty, said. To be fair, almost any ground-water 70% of the water supply depends on healthy aquifers. or well-water that is drawn in regions that are underlain This includes drinking water as well as water for by coal measures—and this is predominantly the case industrial and agricultural use. Frankly, the American in Pennsylvania—have some methane in those waters. experience, though variable, is not completely reassuring. In another place, my colleague Joan Walley quoted an example from Pennsylvania, where methane was found Lord Winston (Lab): Before the noble Lord sits in 82% of drinking water samples. We need to be down, does he have any information as to whether reasonably confident that our regulators, the Environment sea-water pumped back into the sea after fracking Agency and the Drinking Water Inspectorate, will might be hazardous to the environment in the sea-water? operate a much more effective regulatory regime here in the UK than has been operated in certain parts of Lord Oxburgh: My Lords, I think that it depends the United States. Even so, and with a fairly high almost exclusively on how that water has been treated degree of confidence in our regulators, disasters—or by the company that has used it. at least leakages—may well happen. We have a history of earlier energy sources to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department instruct us: the legacy of coal mining and, in a somewhat for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) different vein, the earlier phases of the nuclear industry. (Con): My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has Not only can pollution occur, we have seen the inability explained, Amendment 154 would require onshore oil of the organisations that produced the pollution to and gas operators to provide financial security when finance the decontamination and the clear-up, which applying for an environmental permit so that funds have required very substantial sums. We all support would be available to deal with any water pollution the “polluter pays” principle in theory, but we also incident caused by the operator. The amendment would 543 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 544

[LORD DE MAULEY] taking what might be a rigid legislative approach on a impact on both the conventional and unconventional piecemeal basis. I hope that this news provides the oil and gas sectors. It would address any pollution that reassurance that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, needs they caused to the water environment but not any that the Government are taking the right steps to other damage that might be caused by their activities. ensure that liabilities are dealt with appropriately, and We want a successful industry in this country—an that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment. aspiration supported at Second Reading—to provide us with an important source of gas for our future, but Lord Whitty: My Lords, I thank the Minister for it is vitally important that it is safe. We already have a that. It is a degree of reassurance. I thank the noble well established UK conventional onshore oil and gas Lord, Lord Oxburgh, for expanding the area of concern industry that has happily coexisted with local communities, into the issues of the effect that bringing sea-water on in some cases for half a century or more. This has been land for use may have on watercourses and the possibility achieved not least because the industry has maintained of contamination of the sea-water itself. a good record of environmental responsibility and There is the potential for such a widespread effect competence. The existing controls and the application on the water system that I feel justified in bringing this of good operational practice have served us well to amendment before the House. I am pleased to hear the prevent pollution from onshore oil and gas activities Minister say that the industry, the insurers and the and to tackle in an appropriate way any problems that Government are looking at a scheme. This obviously emerge. recognises the very widespread concern in the country The Department of Energy and Climate Change about the possible impact of fracking which, he is assesses as a matter of course whether a company has right to say, is wider than the issue of the effect on the sufficient funding for its planned operations prior to water supply system. awarding any licence. It also checks at the drilling I am still slightly concerned that we might get into a stage and, where relevant, at the production stage that situation where, if the industry develops to the degree the company has appropriate insurance. Similar financial that many of its advocates suggest is possible, we end competence checks are also carried out by the up with a substantial problem—a problem that could Environment Agency as part of the permitting process. end up on the taypayer’s desk or bank account. In the In the event of serious damage to surface or ground-water, nuclear industry we have provided for such a possibility the Environment Agency and Natural Resources Wales for current operations, although obviously there is a have powers, under the Environmental Damage huge legacy that has not been provided for and a huge (Prevention and Remediation) Regulations 2009 and bill for the taxpayer as a result. We have done the same the equivalent Welsh regulations, to serve a notice on a much lesser scale in relation to landfill. We could requiring that the polluter pays to clear up the pollution. probably also establish a regime in relation to fracking If a significant environmental risk becomes apparent, to ensure that this liability was covered. However, the the Environment Agency has the authority to stop the Minister has indicated that there is some progress. I activity.These powers apply to a wide range of operations will watch this space, as I am sure will others. At this and activities undertaken by different industries. I do time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. not think that it would be appropriate to create any specific provisions for the oil and gas industry. Amendment 154 withdrawn. However, the Government are aware that there are widely felt concerns about the capacity of companies exploring for shale gas to tackle any liabilities that Clause 51: The Flood Reinsurance Scheme might arise. This is the concern that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is pointing to. Therefore, I am pleased to inform your Lordships that the Department of Energy Amendment 154A and Climate Change and the shale gas industry are Moved by Baroness Parminter working to put in place a robust scheme that would cover liabilities even if the relevant operator is no 154A: Clause 51, page 107, line 7, leave out “and” longer in business. They are also in discussion with leading insurers about proposals to build expertise Baroness Parminter (LD): My Lords, in the face of and capacity in the insurance market to facilitate the the desperate flooding challenges that many in our development of products specifically appropriate for country are now facing and look set to face in the unconventional operations, which in turn could facilitate future, I strongly welcome the proposals for Flood Re, the development of an industry-wide scheme. In addition, which we are now coming on to debate and which will while we already have a robust regulatory framework provide affordable flood cover for all households. My in place, I can confirm that it will be reviewed and Amendments 154A, 154B, 156A and 156B give Flood refined as appropriate as we move towards the production Re, which will be a private company in receipt of phase. The question of the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, public money, a duty to act in the public interest and will be addressed in that process. This regulatory extend its remit to help deliver a more resilient future review will include the question of environmental in the face of flooding, working with other bodies to liabilities in the wider sense, not solely relating to water. achieve that where appropriate. I am sure that noble Lords will agree that these two The Flood Re scheme will benefit householders at initiatives, taken together, constitute a sensible approach risk of flooding. However, if flood risk management is towards ensuring that liabilities are covered in a not significantly improved over the lifetime of the comprehensive and proportionate way, rather than scheme, we will be in no better a place after 25 years 545 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 546 than we are now. The adaptation sub-committee of 3.30 pm the Committee on Climate Change—and I am glad to Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, I support my noble see the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, in his place today—in friend Lady Parminter and strongly welcome the its policy note to the Government last month makes it Government’s proposals on the Flood Re scheme. clear that significant increased investment in flood-risk Getting insurance in high-risk areas is of fundamental management is required, as well as in flood defences, if importance to the individuals affected; the outcome of the levels of risk are to be maintained, let alone the negotiations and planning that have gone into the reduced. scheme is very important. All those who have taken Flood Re could raise awareness of flood risk, direct part in that should, in my view, be congratulated. policy holders to advice and support and, crucially, if However—I refer here specifically to Amendments sufficient reserves are generated, it could support measures 154A and 154B—Flood Re cannot be just about that individuals or groups can take to reduce flood reinsurance: it also has to be about reducing flood risk risk. Surplus funds could, for example, pay for property- over time by getting householders who have been level measures, such as flood gates and air brick covers, flooded and claimed on their insurance and householders which typically cost £5,000 per property. Government who are at high risk to invest in better flood protection. grants of between £2,000 and £4,500 are available, so As my noble friend Lady Parminter said, in 25 years’ Flood Re could, for example, meet the difference. It time we should not be in a position where we have not would be a sound investment, given that every £1 made any progress in flood protection and end up invested in property-level protection typically achieves simply repeating the process. Therefore, Flood Re a benefit of £5 or more; or it could contribute towards should not be seen simply as a financial transaction the cost of Environment Agency schemes that do not providing a means of reinsuring properties at risk, or justify full government grants under the partnership deemed to be at risk. We have to go a step further and funding approach. Funding from Flood Re could provide incentives for people to engage proactively in make the difference between a flood defence scheme flood risk management. There are clear benefits in this going ahead or not, which would be worthwhile if it for the insurance industry: better protection will lead were to protect some of Flood Re’s highest-risk customers. to lower total claims. Householders will gain greater security from flooding. To determine what Flood Re could do, it is critical to know how any surplus funds will be defined and Amendments 156A and 156B—which are intended what will happen to them. The evidence of a Defra to be probing amendments—are about the duty of the stakeholder presentation on Flood Re, in a slide entitled Flood Re scheme administrator to co-operate with all “Flood Re’s exposure to claims”, gives a median-loss those bodies that have an existing duty to co-operate scenario of £65 million in claims per year. That means under the 2010 Act. It is very important to put this point that it could have at least £100 million in reserves at in the Bill because, as I said, the scheme should not be the end of the first year. Defra’s final impact assessment seen to have just a financial role: it has to be about for Flood Re, in table 5 on page 20, states that, over resilience as well. The introduction of the FR scheme the life of the scheme, it should on average make an administrator means that strategic interventions can annual surplus of £27 million. This calculation is be undertaken. For example, each household in a given based on Flood Re’s expected loss scenario which high-risk area might be with a different insurance takes account of the low-probability/high-cost flooding company, so developing strategic solutions involving that could take place during the 25 years for which the the insurance industry, which has not so far been possible, scheme is operational. now could be. Examples are in data sharing: competition rules have meant that it is not possible to get access to Either way, Flood Re is likely to hold significant insurance claims data to identify trends in the scale sums of public money that could be used to help and frequency of flooding. Having this data available manage down flood risk. This would help save everyone through the scheme administrator, alongside public money: high-risk households, other policyholders and information held by the public agencies and the water Flood Re itself. This could be achieved without the companies, could be crucial in making investment main £180 million levy needing to be increased because decisions to reduce flood risk and, of course, future it could just be pursued if Flood Re were in surplus. claims. The FR scheme gives us an opportunity to enable Over the 25-year lifetime, this would make a material this information to be made available for high-risk areas difference to the number of homes at significant risk andweneedtomakesureithappensaspartof thisBill. while helping those households secure affordable flood My noble friend Lady Parminter referred to the insurance on an ongoing basis once Flood Re is Committee on Climate Change—and we might hear withdrawn. It is therefore important to know how the more about that shortly—but the estimate that there Government expect any surplus to be defined, in order could be up to 190,000 homes that could have their that it might support such an approach. I look forward flood risks reduced through measures to protect them to hearing more from the Minister on that in his is a very important factor. Flood Re could be charged response. with taking a more proactive approach to encouraging We need legislation that expresses how Flood Re and supporting those people in high-risk areas to can help to deliver social objectives without claiming protect themselves better. As my noble friend Lady that Flood Re can or should solve all flood risk Parminter has made clear, there could be systems of management issues. I hope that I have made clear loans and investments as well to assist householders. what I am seeking for Flood Re to achieve, and the There is a danger in the proposals in the Bill that wording of these amendments is an attempt to do just people in high-risk areas will simply be satisfied with that. I beg to move. having secured reinsurance. They might not fully 547 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 548

[LORD SHIPLEY] As this discussion has made clear, there is a real understand the benefits of actually undertaking flood opportunity here and this is a helpful and supportive prevention work. They may simply end up accepting proposal. I will shortly describe my amendment, which the reinsurance at the price they have to pay. There is a would redesign Flood Re to help it, as has been said, further factor that not everybody, even in a high-band to do two things: to provide cover for householders at property, is cash rich. It could be that, for some, the risk and, at the same time, help to reduce those risks flood protection works that they would have to undertake over the years ahead, so that when Flood Re comes would be too costly. to an end householders do not drop off a cliff after The benefits to the insurance industry of all four of 25 years. these amendments are clear. It should reduce the level of claims it receives, and therefore the cost of that. Earl Cathcart (Con): My Lords, I am very nervous There is a major gain for individual householders in about these amendments, probing as they are. Flood that they will be encouraged—and able—to secure Re has one aim: to provide flood insurance for those greater investment in flood prevention works to their people who cannot buy it at the moment. The first properties. Therefore, I hope that the Minister understands, year or two will be very difficult until it has built up its when he comes to reply, that these four probing reserves, provided that there are not too many claims amendments are all very positive in their approach in in those early years. However, I am very nervous about that they build on the excellent work that the Government the suggestion that Flood Re ought to spend money have done with the insurance industry. However, let us on flood-resilient activities. What happens in 10 years’ work out ways in which we could do a little more to time if we have another horrendous year of rain—floods encourage flood prevention to be undertaken, and all over the place—and these households go to Flood that greater resilience, as part of the Flood Re scheme. Re and say, “I’ve now got a claim, will you pay it?”. What happens if Flood Re replies, “I’m so sorry, I Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords, I, too, am have paid it all out on building a dam here and there”? very interested in this amendment, which has been I do not think it is the right answer to get Flood Re to drawn to the attention of people who live in my pay money out other than for genuine flood claims. former constituency, in particular in the town of Keswick, which noble Lords may recall was the victim of substantial The Earl of Lytton (CB): My Lords, I have a great flooding a few years back. interest in this group of amendments. I certainly I received a letter from Mrs Lynne Jones, the chair understand the geometry that lies behind it, particularly of Keswick Flood Action Group, one of the bodies that outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. that was established following the floods some years I probably follow the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, in ago. I will read her letter to the House, because it this. As I understand it, Flood Re will have significant comes from the front of the battle against flooding, start-up costs. Also, the Environment Agency’s from people on the ground who have to deal with this investigation and collation of information from the every day. She writes: hazard risk assessments, which it is charged with carrying “My particular concern has always been that there is no out, will be a draw-down on the Flood Re fund. That encouragement or independent advice to reinstate properties in a means that, in the early years, there may be significant more flood-resistant, resilient manner after a flood. It can be sums taken out of the pot. I understand that the considered as betterment. Insurance companies have to reinstate properties with insulation which satisfies government legislation, intention is that the Government should put in plan B whether there was insulation before or not. However, there is no configurations to deal with that eventuality. However, requirement to consider solid waterproof floors as opposed to given the sporadic and capricious nature of severe floorboards or a rewire from the first floor down, or the many flooding, we do not have any time to waste in putting other measures which can make flood recovery that bit less measures together to improve resilience and protect stressful, prolonged and expensive should the worst happen”. properties where they can be protected. In other words, people on the front line in this battle I have a technical interest in this: I am a practising against flooding are now considering to what extent chartered surveyor and property valuer. I am also this scheme can be adapted in a way that incentivises involved in the parish and town council sector, as is investment not just in the solution of the immediate well known. I can see the rationale behind an early problem but in remedial measures which can affect start for communities and individual property owners claims in the future. coming together to create robust schemes. We need to do that as soon as the present flood waters have died Lord Krebs (CB): My Lords, I support the amendment down, as I hope they will. Time is of the essence, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. because we do not know when the next flood will As will be apparent, the amendments that I will bring come. There is a conundrum between the build up of forward shortly are in the same vein. They reflect the the pot of Flood Re on the one hand and spending points I made in a letter to the Secretary of State on funds on resilience and protection on the other. In a 22 November 2013, in which I said: later group of amendments, I will say a bit more about “The Flood Re scheme offers the opportunity to strengthen Flood Re, which is intended to cover a very limited incentives for the uptake of household flood protection measures and narrow range of circumstances. I will explain why but it is currently not designed to do this. The consequence is that Flood Re costs will be higher than they need to be, at the expense I think a larger problem of an entirely different magnitude of householders funding the programme through the industry is lurking here. levy”. We need to make a start. On the basis that the I declare an interest as the chairman of the adaptation economy is improving, this is exactly the time when sub-committee of the Committee on Climate Change. these investments need to be made. I will be very 549 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 550 interested to hear what the Minister has to say about delivering flood limitation measures. It is important the pot, how it will be funded and how we get the early and right that Flood Re should co-operate with the years’ work put in place. Like the noble Earl, Lord public authorities, landowners and everybody else in Cathcart, I obviously would not want to see the pot this area, so in that sense I support Amendment 156B. devoted to one large project to the exclusion of all However, it is also important that we do not transfer others. I am sure that would not be the case. If we do the risk from public authorities and property owners not get this right, the credibility of FR is likely to to an insurance system which, at the end of the day, is falter. I think that is something on which the Minister viable only if it takes a cut from all policyholders, can elaborate. including those whose properties are not at all at risk of flooding. Lord Crickhowell (Con): My Lords, one of the great This is a difficult issue. The noble Baroness referred advantages of modern technology is that you can to public money. In one sense public money is involved discover something you did not know anything about because we are legislating for the system and the while a debate is taking place. As this debate started, I Treasury will, therefore, regard the expenditure involved chose to look at a Defra website on obtaining flood as public money, but it is not really public money—it insurance in high-risk areas. At the top of the main is the policyholders’ money. At the end of the day, you page, a number of participants are indicated: BIBA, cannot place too many responsibilities on the Flood the Environment Agency, Which?, ABI, the National Re operation when it is dependent on individual Flood Forum and Defra. Flood Re does not appear households and businesses paying into it for insurance there yet. Can the Minister say how far the department purposes. has already gone down the road that is suggested here? It may well be that a surplus is generated and that This website, which contains a great deal of other the assessment of who pays for flood defence is looked valuable information on the steps you could, and at more broadly. Clearly, there are limitations on public should, be taking, already exists. Presumably, at some expenditure and expenditure on better flood defence point Flood Re will be fitted into the whole arrangement. and catchment management could be met by those My only anxiety about the Flood Re participation is who are the most direct beneficiaries of it. You could that indicated by my noble friend—namely, that against argue that insurance companies themselves benefit the present background, I only hope that there is a from fewer claims as a result of more effective flood surplus in the early years because the fact is that we defence, but that is a slightly wider argument than could have a situation whereby, far from having a placing the statutory responsibilities for which these surplus in the early years, we have a substantial loss. amendments ask on to Flood Re itself. I think that However, as there is a website and as a good deal of that is slightly going round the back door. advice is being given by the department—I think it is As I say, I am slightly torn on this issue because I rather good advice—perhaps my noble friend will agree with a lot of what the noble Baroness and the indicate what the department’s overall approach is noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said. However, I think that and how he sees Flood Re fitting into what is already we would probably place too much responsibility on going on. Flood Re if we adopted all these amendments. 3.45 pm Lord Whitty: My Lords, in her opening remarks, Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I am grateful to my the noble Baroness was correct to set this matter in the noble friend Lady Parminter for her amendments broader context of where we are now, and have been in regarding flood resilience and Flood Re’s role in that recent years, with instances of serious flooding in matter, and to all noble Lords who have spoken. Somerset this week, possible serious flooding in Surrey Regarding Amendments 154A and 154B, I agree with by the end of the day, that which occurred in Keswick my noble friend Lord Shipley that we need to tackle not long ago; and the resources that are needed to the root cause of the difficulties with the availability ameliorate that position in the long term which are, and affordability of flood insurance—the flood risk essentially, the resources that the Government are that households face. The coverage of the tragic events putting in. We will no doubt return to that issue at of the past couple of months, which my noble friend some stage in these proceedings. However it raises the Lady Parminter mentioned, have brought the full impact question of whose responsibility this is. I have slight of this home to us all. I thought that the letter read out reservations about these amendments in that regard. by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, set out The public authorities and the Government have the problem very well. responsibility for ensuring that adequate resources are Households benefiting from Flood Re need to available for flood defence and catchment management understand both their flood risk and the likely impact to mitigate the impact of flooding and insurance and of the withdrawal, over time, of the subsidy on their reinsurance schemes can help through their normal future premiums. I hope that noble Lords will be operations. However, insurers can insist on mitigation reassured to hear that we have agreed with the Association or flood recovery measures along the lines mentioned of British Insurers the principle that insurers will be by my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours as a condition required to provide such information to customers of renewal or extension of policy cover or as a deduction, when a property is ceded to Flood Re and at the point if you like, from compensation. That is a normal of a claim. I hope that the statutory requirement for insurance operation. the Flood Re scheme to manage, over the period of These amendments seem to be saying that Flood the operation of the scheme, the transition to risk-reflective Re would take on some public responsibilities and pricing of flood insurance for household premises also social objectives and have executive responsibility for offers some reassurance. 551 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 552

[LORD DE MAULEY] Perhaps I may say to my noble friend Lord Cathcart The ABI has now come forward with draft proposals that while directly managing flood risk is not the for ensuring that the correct incentives are in place to purpose of Flood Re, it is nevertheless vital that Flood drive uptake of resilient repairs after a flood, particularly Re does not just deliver affordable flood insurance. It for those properties subject to repeat flooding. We are should also contain the right incentives for householders still agreeing the detail of this approach and I hope and insurers to put in place the necessary measures to to have more to say on Report. Encouraging households become more resilient, since otherwise the effective to become more resilient over the period of the price limits in Flood Re may remove some of the scheme will help to reduce the impacts of subsequent financial incentive to take such action. He has flooding. suggested—the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, also asked Turning to Amendment 156A, the subsection that about this—that Flood Re will need to build up its my noble friends seek to amend has been drafted in reserves, which is of course right, but it will have such a way to provide firm pointers as to what the access to the proceeds of the levy and be able itself to Flood Re scheme administrator would need to have take out reinsurance. Can I offer to meet noble Lords regard but is also intended to allow for a degree before Report, on which occasion I shall of course be of flexibility that may be needed as the scheme is happy to provide an update? Perhaps I could also finalised. I assure noble Lords, in the strongest terms, address the point made by my noble friend Lord that the Government are absolutely committed to Crickhowell at this stage. I shall come back on Report taking forward Flood Re, together with the insurance to noble Lords with more details of how those who industry, and that both parties are working very hard flood repeatedly might be treated. For the reasons I to achieve this. have outlined, I hope that I can persuade my noble friend to withdraw her amendment. We expect the administrator to act responsibly in its management of the scheme throughout its life and we have every intention of ensuring that it discharges its Baroness Parminter: I thank the Minister for that functions in a proper manner, supported by the duties helpful response and I thank Members around the we will place in secondary legislation. The regulations Committee who have contributed to this debate. It has made under Clause 54 will be subject to public helped to spell out in more detail what we are all consultation and we are currently considering carefully hoping to achieve for Flood Re. We do not expect it to the Delegated Powers Committee’s recommendation be able to answer all the social objectives in terms of that regulations made under this clause should be flood risk management, but we should accept that it subject to the affirmative procedure. I trust that this is not just a flood insurance vehicle, important and assurance puts on the record our intentions in this critical though that is. It will also need to provide the regard. necessary incentives to transition to a stronger place in the future. The wording of the amendment may not be As regards Amendment 156B, my noble friends are ideal, but at least it has facilitated this debate. I hope right that co-operation between Flood Re and flood that noble Lords are not disappointed in my having risk management authorities will be important, in brought it forward in that light. particular should Flood Re wish in the future to commit any of its resources to supporting flood risk I thank the Minister for agreeing to meet noble mitigation measures. Clause 54 provides for Flood Re Lords between now and Report. That will be helpful to share information held by it with the Environment because there are still questions about the surplus and Agency, its equivalents in devolved Administrations how it will be defined. The comments made by my and any other bodies specified in regulations. It also noble friend Lord Cathcart and others remind me that provides for Flood Re to have a duty to act in the we are not guaranteed surpluses with Flood Re; this is public interest, so where it is in the public interest for only what we are saying if those surpluses are achieved. Flood Re to co-operate with other risk management I am happy to learn that the Minister intends to say authorities, it would be expected to do so. more on this issue at the next stage. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Under the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, flood risk management authorities have a duty to Amendment 154A withdrawn. co-operate with each other in the exercise of their flood and coastal erosion risk management functions. Amendment 154B not moved. This is because the causes of flooding can cross organisational boundaries and responsibilities. For example, flood risk management schemes to protect Amendment 155 one area may make the problem worse elsewhere if there is not a partnership approach to developing Moved by Lord Moynihan solutions. Flood Re will not have an operational role 155: Clause 51, page 107, line 20, at end insert— in designing or implementing flood risk management “( ) Within 12 months of this Act coming into force, the schemes. As I think the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, Secretary of State must publish and lay before both Houses of suggested, that would be beyond the scope of Flood Parliament a report on the ability of businesses in areas of high Re and would require different skill sets. Flood Re will flood risk to secure affordable insurance cover.” therefore not have the same degree of interaction with the risk management authorities that they will have Lord Moynihan (Con): My Lords, I shall start by with each other. I am not convinced that there is a echoing the view that Flood Re is a welcome scheme, need to extend the requirements based upon the Flood and I congratulate the Minister, his colleagues and the Re body. industry on introducing it. The scheme is to be supported 553 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 554 in principle, but the devil may be in the detail. Other costs to secure insurance. The Federation of Small amendments grouped with mine allow the Committee Businesses has recently shown in its research that one to consider those who will be excluded from Flood Re, in five small firms was affected by flooding last year their ability to get insurance, and the costs of such alone and I am sure that that figure will be seen to insurance. Mine is a probing amendment but, that have increased recently. The National Flood Forum said, it is important in that it focuses on the significant has argued that: absence of much-needed support to SMEs in the “Flood Re should cover all businesses run from a home”. proposed Flood Re scheme. It goes on to argue that: Under the current provisions, small businesses of “Small businesses should be included in Flood Re or alternative up to 49 employees are covered under the statement of provided”. principles. The Bill before the Committee proposes a Equally, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has emphasised new scheme, Flood Re, which is substantially built on its concern about how repeated flooding could affect the statement of principles. However, Flood Re provisions insurance premiums for small businesses. It suggests extend only to domestic properties and offer no protection that consideration should be given to the implications at all to any businesses except a category called “micro- of costly insurance for the future operation of businesses businesses” at risk of flooding. This is a really important in high-risk areas, especially in small communities distinction between SMEs and micro-businesses. My where they may not only provide an important economic noble friend the Minister may be able to clear up function but are central to the functioning of their exactly what that distinction is when he comes to community. sum up. Finally, I am pleased to report that London Councils supports this amendment. In some key areas of London, 4pm businesses are at risk of flooding as much as households. The critical point that I wish to make is that small It is important that small to medium-sized enterprises businesses are key to economic growth. The importance and third-sector organisations, particularly those at of flood insurance has been highlighted by recent surface level on our high streets, have access to affordable adverse weather, and removing the protection for small insurance cover. London Councils points out that businesses from the statement of principles leaves flooding can devastate the economy of London’s high them vulnerable to very significant increases in insurance streets, many of which contain SMEs and charity premiums and even facing the possibility of being shops. They are affected by damage not just to property unable to afford flood insurance. This would be disastrous but also to stock, and they can take a long time to for many small businesses, including the shops battered recover. The flood hazard and risk maps published by on so many seafronts recently, village shops and businesses the Environment Agency in December last year show in the heart of stranded local communities. The need that in the Thames area more than 166,000 non-residential for affordable flood insurance in high-risk areas is properties are at risk of flooding, nearly 76,000 of essential to these small businesses. I urge the Government which are in London. A significant number of these to ensure that an appropriate form of flood provision non-residential properties are small businesses. Bearing for small businesses is available. in mind all these representations, I beg to move. Of course I appreciate that businesses reflect a different risk from residential properties and as such Flood Re may not be an appropriate form of protection Lord Sheikh (Con): My Lords, at Second Reading for them. However, I very strongly argue that some I welcomed the Bill but outlined some concerns. I am provision in this area is required. Small shops are extremely grateful to my noble friend the Minister more vulnerable to the effects of flooding compared both for the remarks he made during that debate and to their larger competitors, with fewer resources to fall for the correspondence I have received since then. back on and less power to negotiate insurance provision. Indeed, he was able to alleviate a number of my Many small shop owners have no greater knowledge concerns. However, there is one area where I still have or expertise than domestic customers. Small shops are a slight concern, which relates to the effect this legislation at the heart of many communities. If they recover will have on small businesses. slowly from flood events, it can have a significant At Second Reading I said that since small businesses knock-on effect for the wider community. I believe will be ineligible for Flood Re, they will therefore be that government-supported flood insurance provisions afforded less protection than in the statement of principles should cover all small businesses previously covered by which they are covered. In his correspondence to by the statement of principles, especially those dependent me, my noble friend the Minister said that it was the on the locality for trade and which, by their nature, belief of the Government that there was not sufficient support communities. This view is supported by the evidence to justify intervention in relation to small National Flood Forum and indeed the Association of businesses. However, I believe that more should be Convenience Stores, whose campaign I support. Proposals done to protect our valued SMEs, many of which to exclude small businesses are contrary to other operate under tight budgets and may be unable to government measures, including small business provisions obtain affordable flood insurance. My noble friend the such as those seen in the energy markets. Minister has also said that it was his belief that SMEs As I have stated, I accept that this scheme will cover were more able to protect themselves from flooding. micro-businesses operating out of domestic premises Again, I point to the issue of cost here. Just as many but not the wider small business community. I am SMEs struggle with the cost of insurance, they also concerned that this decision will lead to small businesses struggle to afford to put in place measures to protect in areas at risk of flood being subject to exorbitant their businesses and livelihoods. 555 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 556

[LORD SHEIKH] People may ask what I am doing defending people I welcome the Minister’s remarks that this issue will living in band H properties from the Labour Benches. remain under review but I feel that this does not go far The reason is simple: many people who live in band H enough. If nothing further can be done to assist SMEs properties did not buy them as band H properties. as part of the Bill, the amendment tabled by my noble They bought them when they were much cheaper, and friend Lord Moynihan could at least assist them in the when their incomes may well have been quite modest. future. In fact, it would benefit both the Government Property price inflation in London and in the south of and SMEs because of the extra clarity it would bring. England has placed many people in this position. It would provide a mechanism to formally review the Even the way that the mansion tax is being construed ability of businesses to take action to reduce flood risk may affect people who have quite small incomes. I am and access flood insurance. in favour of the mansion tax, but maybe the way that The conciliatory manner in which this Bill has it is to be calibrated raises the same questions. People progressed is most welcome and I would welcome on low incomes who find themselves living in expensive anything further the Minister has to say on this issue. properties—I am not one of them, as I said—have Again, I support the Bill and would like it to succeed, to be considered in these matters. I hope that the but suitable measures must be put in place in order Government, even as late as this in the Bill, might on that everybody gets the benefit of what we propose Third Reading at least make some statement as to to do. what provision might be made for them, notwithstanding what the Bill provides on Flood Re. Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 160, in the name of my noble friends Lord Whitty and Lord Grantchester. I intend to speak The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, it is probably appropriate on a number of amendments so I must declare an that I follow the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. interest. I have a leasehold interest, with my wife, in a I have to admit that I live in a band H property, but it band G home on the Thames built on the flood plain. is not in London and I am glad to say that it is built on My flat is not threatened by flooding. My home has a hill. My Amendments 160ZA and 161D are in this therefore never been evacuated and I have never made group. I shall be brief, because there is another larger an insurance claim on a property I own. Nevertheless, issue that I want to address. I feel that I have an interest to declare while speaking I tabled Amendment 160ZA to see whether I could on an issue that affects tens of thousands of home flush out the rationale behind the exclusion of certain owners who similarly live in the vicinity of the Thames, categories of property from FR, but also because many of whom are now being evacuated. there seemed to be a reluctance to consider both sides I start by congratulating the Government on of the coin in terms of what is in and what is out of the introducing this scheme, which I understand was the safety net. What is in identifies and underlines what is subject of some very difficult negotiations with the out. It cannot be otherwise. The fact of exclusion does insurance industry. I want to refer to a particular not mean that other insurers will not provide some group of home owners, of which I am not one, who cover, but it does, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- come under council tax band H. Council tax band H Savours, said, have consequences. I have certainly received is pretty expensive property, as we know, and the correspondence suggesting some very significant rises flooding over the past few days has probably affected in free market premiums based not so much on the thousands of these properties up and down the River immediate severe risk but on that broader category of Thames between Chertsey and just south of Maidenhead, material risk that will be flagged up and will lie between near Windsor. These home owners will be very worried those that have no risk whatsoever and those that are about what is going to happen. They are excluded protected by the FR safety net. It is in the public from this scheme. Not only do they have the problem interest that any scheme report under Amendment 160 of how to resolve their immediate difficulty of dealing should look beyond the narrow scope of FR inclusions with the flooding and the consequences for their homes, and also look at wider exclusions. but they will also be worried about the longer term financial implications, in the event that their premiums 4.15 pm are substantially increased—which they will be. I know On Amendment 161D, I wanted to raise an allied that from my own experience in the Lake District, issue. Part of the problem is that many of the terms in which I mentioned during my previous intervention. Clause 69 are undefined, “household premises” being For most of my life, I lived there in the town of one of them. My amendment would simply insert a Keswick, which was subject to flooding. Many people definition of “household premises”. Paragraph 14 of there found it impossible to get insurance from insurance the 20th report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory companies following the floods that took place some Reform Committee points to the huge amount of years ago. detail that is going to be—to put it bluntly—kicked There is going to be a real problem for these people. down the road to be dealt with in regulation, probably Many in the Thames Valley are not included in this towards the end of this year. This creates great uncertainty scheme because their properties fall into band H. It is both for this House, in terms of working out what we not that the Government need to interfere with this are legislating for, and for those homes and businesses scheme. I understand its merits and it has been very which may in due course be affected. Uncertainty, as I sensitively negotiated. We very much support it. However, know as a professional valuer, is corrosive, and particularly heads have got to be banged together to find a way of so in the present state of flooding and dislocation of resolving the problem of many of these people who households, businesses, services and infrastructure, of live in band H property. which we have heard a great deal. As a factor in risk 557 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 558 assessment, it is essential to contain it as far as possible. in the Chamber, pointed out to me a few days ago. Put I think that the Government could probably do better simply, everything within a red line drawn on a map on that count because FR is hypothecated on a very becomes uninsurable and then unmortgageable; narrow basis. disinvestment, deprivation and decline then follow. I have already flagged up the issue that I am about The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, who to raise with the Minister, and I thank him for his is also, I fear, not here today, reminded me last week of letter to me following Second Reading and for seeing the effects of lender reticence on high-rise and ex-council industry representatives last week. The second bullet flats. Value write-offs in these cases might easily be in point in the revised statement of principles states that the order of 10% to 15% without any other environmental ABI members will, risk. Once property of any kind is in a limited market “Continue to offer flood cover to existing domestic property of cash buyers only and with a material flood risk and small business customers at significant flood risk providing attached, as we are talking about in this instance, the Environment Agency has announced plans and notified the write-downs might easily exceed 30%. ABI of its intention to reduce the risk for those customers below significant within five years”. The Council of Mortgage Lenders calculates that The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, also introduced this 5 million residential properties will fall outside the FR point. However, long leaseholds, buy to lets, band H scheme, to which might be added—I am guessing—a properties and those built post 2009, and small and million small business premises. If a third of those medium-size enterprise premises fall to be excluded. I suffer an average write-down of £100,000 due to being assume that they are excluded because there are no in a mortgage ghetto, the outcomes are substantial. government plans to reduce the risk and therefore Mr Philip Wilbourn, FRICS, an expert in valuation flood reinsurance cannot underwrite them—that is an and environmental risk, considers that direct and indirect assumption that I make. So the many people who write-offs could be trillions of pounds. That is a very thought that FR would ensure future cover for their serious implication. Even if he is only half right, the properties will be disappointed. Government need to take note. It is enough to affect I understand that the sustainability of insurance loan books, investment, pensions, tax yields and overall cross-subsidy is an issue, and I do not suggest that this market and investor confidence. This is also about should be perpetuated for any longer than is absolutely financial security of households and solvency of necessary—nobody should expect government or society businesses. at large to prop up an outdated risk model or practices I do not blame FR, but I do suggest that a more involving cross-subsidy in the knowledge of much holistic approach is needed if market turbulence is more detailed individual risk. However, this is about a to be minimised. Leaving significant sectors high and managed transition and it is to the credit of the dry—excuse the pun—has accentuated what is ultimately Government and the ABI that a precipitous withdrawal a latent problem. Nor do I suggest that FR could ever of flood cover did not occur last summer. However, be expanded to cater for this, so we need to look with the present weather, the exclusions from FR and elsewhere. I have written to the Minister suggesting a lack of clarity over many of the implications of ways in which potential harm might be mitigated. I Clause 69 definitions, along with better knowledge— suggest that he engages in urgent discussions with which is always a dangerous thing—we have significant professionals and lenders as to how some of the very transitional uncertainties. Valuer members of my useful measures in the Bill can be fast-tracked to profession, like me, deal with this sort of thing constantly. empower and resource local communities, such as Contrary to what the Defra impact assessment those on the Somerset Levels, and foster more initiatives might lead one to suppose, there is no simple gradation such as Sheffield’s Lower Don Valley business of supply and demand via the price system when improvement district scheme. I also think that it is dealing with risk in property valuation. In the lending time for a change in the lending and insurance markets. world, it is more a case of a simple on/off switch. The Government have a role in constructively addressing There are many reasons, but the voluntary banking risk and preventing precipitate and unconstrained damage regulation under Basel III may have something to do affecting everyone. with it along with recent memories of toxic loans. I I raise this issue because it seems to me that, although have conferred within my own profession and with the it sits outside FR, it is a matter of very great public British Property Federation and the Council of Mortgage interest and very great financial import. I thought Lenders. It appears to me that the interdependence of long and hard about whether I should raise it in the insurance and mortgages is highly significant. Absence context of the Bill, but ultimately felt compelled to do of cover for a standard peril, including flood, most so. I do not think it is anywhere near a lost cause, probably means no mortgage either. but for the same reasons I gave earlier this afternoon There is also, of course, the lenders’ ability to look that we need investment to go into resilience and flood at risk on their own terms, regardless of whether there protection measures, we do not need the plug pulled is an insurance underpinning. It is my belief that, in on the capital value element of properties at the future, lenders will not be any more indulgent than same time. I hope that the Minister, who I am certain insurers when it comes to risk, and probably a good will not be able to give me any very detailed response, deal less so, given the typical mortgage life compared if any at all, will take this away and that perhaps to an annually renewable insurance policy. This becomes some aspects of the Bill can be fast-forwarded, if akin to what I understand is known as a “red-lining for no other reason than to bring back confidence, principle”, a term coined in the USA, which the noble which I fear may soon be in limited supply if nothing Baroness, Lady O’Neill of Bengarve, who is not, I think, is done. 559 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 560

[THE EARL OF LYTTON] affordable to the insurance industry, secured in The Government need to be on the front foot on co-operation with it and that does not allow government this—as, indeed, there is every reason to be—in order subsidy to create a huge deficit in the scheme over to make sure that damage, in terms of the perception time. of what is being done and how all this is being contained Addressing the issue of small businesses raised by and managed, is brought back into a sensible format. the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, we ought to remind ourselves that the statement of Baroness Parminter (LD): My Lords, I put my principles only covers the availability, not the affordability, name to my noble friend Lord Moynihan’s amendment of insurance for those small businesses. It covers only and I shall speak briefly in support of it. renewal policies, so the policyholder at risk of flooding The Government’s impact assessment on managing cannot change insurer, and it does not cover the cost the future financial risk of flooding states that there is of the policy. insufficient evidence of a problem for businesses to get There is also the question of practicality. The insurance and that there are other market mechanisms introduction of businesses into Flood Re would for them to get cover. However, the impact assessment dramatically complicate the pricing of the scheme, the focuses on the national impact, whereas flooding affects availability of Flood Re as crucial reinsurance—on localities, so it is perhaps no surprise that it did not which the scheme depends—and, by no means least, find that much evidence. the complexity of the internal model, which will have Further, the Government’s position is driven by to be approved by the PRA. All the different coverage their recent consultation on the issue, which asked for afforded by business policies, such as business interruption, evidence of a need for a mechanism for small businesses contingent business interruption and loss of profits, and received a few responses from small businesses, will make the internal model much more complicated which may well have had other priorities. The ABI has compared to what are fairly homogenous homeowners’ given the Government assurances that the broker policies. community is doing, To address the most pressing need as soon as possible “a good job working directly with business customers in getting a in a way that is acceptable to as many people as good deal for them”. possible, we should concentrate on the most important I contend that it is the Government’s job to insist that issues and leave the Flood Re design as it is. there be firm evidence of that, which is what the amendment is intended to deliver. 4.30 pm There are few studies of the impact of flooding Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD): incidents in general on business, apart from some by My Lords, I speak to Amendments 161B and 161C in AXA, and they focus on the impact on individual this group. Although welcoming the introduction of businesses rather than the broader economic resilience Flood Re and accepting that it is essentially a scheme of communities in the face of flooding. I could not for domestic premises, I remain concerned about the find any research which looks at the significant impact exclusion of small businesses, especially in very rural of flooding on small businesses, which often make areas. I refer specifically to those which are mixed up the backbone of the rural economy. It is here that hereditaments. The key question appears to be: what flooding has a huge impact not just on individual happens to mixed hereditaments in terms of qualifying families and their businesses but on the complex web for inclusion in Flood Re? of supply and demand chains in the local economy. There are two scenarios for mixed hereditaments. Ensuring adequate flood cover for small businesses, The first is where the business element is deemed by including farm businesses, is as important as supporting the valuation to be de minimis. This means it forms households if we are to protect the overall community such a small part of the overall hereditament that it resilience of rural areas. appears only in a domestic list for council tax. The As my noble friend Lord Moynihan said, small second is where the business element is more significant, businesses were covered by the statement of principles and is therefore liable to both council tax and business and they were able to get flood risk insurance in the rates. If the property does not appear in the waiting same way as households. Given that Flood Re does list for business rates as well as for council tax, the not guarantee them that insurance, we certainly need liable party may qualify for business rate relief. This reassurance from the Government that they are mindful could be small business rate relief, where it is their only of the need for cover for businesses, particularly small business premises. businesses, and of their important role in rural I understand that, currently, if the rateable value is communities. less than £6,000 the relief received would be 100%. Rateable values between £6,000 and £12,000 receive Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con): My Lords, I should relief on a sliding scale. This enhanced small business declare an interest that I declared on Second Reading, rate relief scheme has been extended until 31 March which is that, until June, I was the chief executive of 2015, and not beyond that at the moment. The standard two insurance companies, and I still labour under scheme allows a relief of 50%. In a rural settlement it some residual contract limitations. might be the case that a village shop or post office is There is an overriding need to put in place a workable part of a mixed hereditament. In this case it would solution that will, first, solve the most pressing need, qualify for rural rate relief. Also, in a rural settlement, which is to address the availability and cost of flood a pub with living accommodation above could qualify insurance and, secondly, do so in a way that is timely, for rural rate relief on the pub element. 561 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 562

I am extremely concerned about excluding mixed excess, the cover and the conditions must be standardised. hereditaments from access to Flood Re. This could This can be done for homeowner insurance—it is have a dramatic impact, not just on the business owner pretty bog-standard—but sadly, as I have tried to but on those residents who use the business. If that illustrate, not for commercial insurance. Youjust cannot business cannot get flood insurance it may remain standardise it. If it were standardised, virtually all unviable and may be forced to close prematurely if commercial members of that mutual would end up flooded. Where, for example, this is the last shop or with a policy that did not give them the cover that they post office in the village this could have a significant wanted. impact on the villagers. It would be good if everything could be included in Flood Re, whether owner-occupied houses, rented homes Earl Cathcart (Con): My Lords, I congratulate my or small businesses, but the line must be drawn somewhere. noble friends Lord Moynihan and Lady Parminter on It has been agreed that those with homeowner insurance, tabling Amendment 155, as it has given us a good buildings and contents, will be included and that chance to debate flood insurance for businesses, whether commercial insurance will not be. If I had a property in Flood Re or in another mutual set up specifically. in a flood-risk zone that was deemed to have commercial We are all under pressure to include small businesses insurance with it and was therefore excluded from the under the Flood Re scheme. That is quite understandable. mutual, I would ask my broker to split my insurance If I had a business in a flood risk area, I would want to cover into two separate policies: one for the bog-standard insure it under the Flood Re scheme. I know that the homeowner cover, buildings and contents, to ensure Association of British Insurers and the Government inclusion within the Flood Re scheme, and the other looked at whether businesses could be included within to include all elements that made my cover commercial, the Flood Re scheme, but found that it threw up more such as owner’s liability or public liability cover. That problems than it solved. This is best illustrated with might be a way forward for many of those finding an example. themselves excluded from the Flood Re scheme because I am a free range egg producer on my farm in of the commercial element of their policy. Norfolk, and when it came to buying insurance for the Flood Re will help up to 500,000 homeowners who business, I was presented with a long shopping list of cannot currently buy flood cover, but I am sure that types of cover relevant to my business: property; business with a little bit of inventiveness, many, although I am interruption; loss of profits; contractors “all risks”; afraid not all, small businesses, including buy-to-let terrorism and malicious attack; livestock, including and leasehold properties, can buy their insurance in theft, worrying, death after straying, accidental or such a way as to be included in the scheme. malicious death; deterioration of stock, in my case probably due to bad feed or electrical failure; perils Lord Whitty: My Lords, my noble friend and I have and fatal injury; livestock in transit; disease, in my two amendments in this rather complicated group. case probably something like bird flu or salmonella; The group as a whole is beginning to get us into the goods in transit; motor, for lorries, trucks, vans or area of who should be in and who is out of Flood Re, cars; employers’ liability; public liability; product liability and we have some groups of amendments later that or environmental liability; legal and professional expenses. touch on the same issue. Before the Bill leaves this The list goes on, but I hope that gives your Lordships House, we must be clear who is in, who is out, and a flavour of the range of commercial insurance on why. offer. I, of course, had to cherry pick the cover that My Amendment 160 would require the Secretary of was most relevant to me. For instance, I did not buy State to report on the numbers of properties in flood-risk livestock or goods in transit cover, because this is the areas that were eligible, and those that were not, for responsibility of third parties with whom I have a inclusion in Flood Re. It would include looking at the contract. Also, I have no vehicles in that business, so specific exclusion as it stands of council tax band H motor insurance was not an issue. However, salmonella and post-2009 new build. The report would look at is an issue for my business, but because the insurance how much it would cost to bring them in and who is so costly I chose not buy it. I hope that I got that one would bear the cost if they were brought into Flood right. I have to choose not only the type of cover that I Re, in terms of both premiums and the effect on the think is appropriate to my business but how much non-risky properties’ cross-subsidy. cover to buy for each category, the cost and the level of We all have some sympathy with those groups that excess necessary to reduce that cost. The excess across are excluded. However, we must be careful, as this is a my shopping list varies from £100 to £20,000. delicate arithmetic deal between the Government and Although there are hundreds of egg producers up the ABI. I understand that negotiations were hard and and down the country with identical businesses to long. As far as businesses are concerned, it is obvious mine, I very much doubt that there is another that has that this must be addressed somehow. We have all seen commercial insurance exactly the same as mine. They the effects of flooding in recent weeks and the past few will all be different, and that is the problem: all businesses, years, on small businesses and farms, on the Cockermouth whether a corner shop, a pub, a guest house, a property high street a year ago and on the seafronts at Dawlish investment company, a hotel or guest house, a and Aberystwyth in recent weeks. We also know that manufacturing company or an engineering firm, will the businesses that are hit—the shops, boarding houses buy commercial insurance to suit their particular and small businesses—are key to the prosperity of circumstances. The whole point of a mutual, whether those local economies. It must be frustrating for small Flood Re or one geared specifically to small businesses, businesses, and those advocating their case, like the is that the conditions are common to all. The price, the federation, because they were covered in some way 563 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 564

[LORD WHITTY] the old agreement, let alone the new one. I therefore under the statement of principles under the old scheme. have less sympathy for that group than I might have However, the old scheme was a different sort of scheme. for the others. It was a deal struck by the ABI, agreeing that it would continue to cover—even then, it was not offering new 4.45 pm cover—small businesses as well as households if the We need to be clear about who is in and who is out. Government committed themselves to a certain level If we include any others, we have to understand the of expenditure on flood defence. cost and who will bear it. The cross-subsidy for those This is a different sort of deal; it is actuarially who are not involved at all is an issue. I know that the based. While we have all received representations on insurance industry and the Government say that there behalf of businesses, the approach now has a different has actually been cross-subsidy for ever, but nobody basis. Even so, it is complicated. Some micro-businesses knew that before. Now that it is explicit, the Government operated out of the owner’s house could be covered have to be careful if they are going to accept some because they pay council tax rather than business tax. further risk which increases the costs, which people However, others will not. There are good reasons for who are not directly involved might not be prepared to this. The noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, described the pay, whatever sympathy they might otherwise have. bespoke way in which businesses negotiate their insurance The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, as distinct from the more generalised way in which on businesses and my amendment on looking at the households are covered. It is difficult to see how cost as well as the numbers of properties excluded businesses could be included in Flood Re as it stands would be helpful in informing future debate in this without serious reconfiguration of the whole arithmetic. area. Meanwhile, my Amendment 161 provides for an Therefore, while I have sympathy, I would not go so appeals system. It is not for an appeal about whether far as to press the Government on this front. However, you should be included at the beginning; it is not I am in favour of knowing more about this. Therefore about whether band H should be included or not. It is I support the proposition of the noble Lord, Lord about subsequent developments which might exclude Moynihan, that we look at this and report on it and people who initially appeared to be included in Flood see whether that might lead us to some other form of Re, but were for one reason or another excluded. That provision in parallel with Flood Re. can happen for a number of reasons, because either Some of the other boundary issues are even more the flood risk or the actual incidence of flood has complicated, particularly in relation to leasehold properties increased and therefore premium arithmetic changes; and the issue of whether landlords and tenants are or it could be the situation I described in the previous included. The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, has dealt with amendment: the insurance company insists on mitigation one element of this and others are dealt with later on. provision as a condition of renewal of the policy but Some of the government literature refers to leasehold the policyholder feels that they are unable to meet that properties. However, in general, the ABI and the cost and are thereby excluded. That may or may not be Government do not think that leasehold properties justifiable in any particular case, but a system which is are included. The situation with single landlords and being legislated upon by Parliament has to have some tenants is not clear, although commercial providers of element of natural justice built into it. Therefore, leasehold property are not included. The differentiation some form of appeal is needed in this whole range of here is more the nature of the insurance than the provision. I hope that the Government can accept my nature of the property. While the property may be Amendment 161, or at least provide something similar defined as being in risk or not, in a landlord/tenant to it. situation, the tenant probably takes out the contents insurance, which is covered, whereas building insurance, Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I recognise the high which is the landlord’s responsibility, is not covered. degree of interest in the policies that will be covered by That is quite a complex position, and it would also be our proposals, and those which will be out of scope. I true for multiple leasehold property. A future mortgage hope that I can provide some clarity today on what is on such property is dependent to some extent, as the intended and the reasons for this. noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said, on there being ongoing The Flood Re proposition we are debating today insurance on the property. Leaseholders and the owners was carefully designed to address specific, medium-term of the property may be faced with a double whammy issues in the domestic insurance market. It was not, of if they are not careful. course, designed in light of the immediate crisis that As I said, I am not in favour of widening the group we are facing. I heard the passion and concern from at this time because of the delicate arithmetic involved. your Lordships last week, yesterday and, indeed, today, We must address some of these issues in the Bill but about the specific, frustrating issues affecting the broader for the moment I cannot support the amendments community, including small businesses and the farming proposed by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, nor the industry. It is clearly a distressing time for many, and proposals of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of I know that they are in all our thoughts. Again, I pass Hardington Mandeville, on mixed hereditaments. I on my thanks to the Environment Agency, the emergency am not sure whether Amendment 160A in the name of services and the many volunteers, including the churches, the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, which would effectively who are working tirelessly to help. delete the exclusion of post-2009 properties, is in this However, it is not immediately apparent that there group. That is in a rather different category because is an insurance angle to the current situation. Those people have been building in high-risk areas when they who have insurance will be covered by their insurer. have known that they were going to be excluded under I am grateful, too, for the efforts of the insurance 565 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 566 industry, which has been working hard in communities My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under- to ensure that damage is assessed and that claims are Secretary of State for Water set out indicative numbers paid quickly. Until Flood Re is in place, insurers will and costs for including in Flood Re Band H and continue to provide insurance cover. We have no equivalent properties and properties built after 1 January understanding with the industry about expanding the 2009 in a letter to the Committee examining this Bill in scope of the scheme. I therefore ask that your Lordships the other place. I would be happy to ensure that this forgive me if I combine my response to this debate to letter is made available to noble Lords who have the specific proposition before your Lordships today. participated in this debate today. However, I would not I turn first to Amendment 155 of my noble friend want noble Lords to think that the impact on the levy Lord Moynihan, which would require the Secretary of is the only reason for post-January 2009 and Band H State to publish a report on the ability of businesses in or equivalent properties being ineligible. As I noted, high flood-risk areas to secure flood insurance. I emphasise we were very clear in designing Flood Re that we that decisions about the scope of Flood Re have been wanted to target the benefits where they were most evidence-based. Compared to the household sector, needed, while not increasing the cost of living for there is not the same evidence of market failure in the those not at flood risk. That is the basis on which we commercial sector, where the insurance market is different. made the decision that it would not be justified for Bespoke policies are more routine—as my noble friend Band H and equivalent properties to be included. Lord Cathcart so eloquently explained—and they are According to the 2011 living costs and food survey already priced to risk. I listened with interest to what published by the Office for National Statistics, 85% of he, my noble friend Lord Ashton, and the noble Lord, those who live in Band H properties and hold a Lord Whitty, had to say. combined insurance policy are in the top 30% of Businesses, unlike households, have a de facto income earners, with 48% in the top 10%. More significantly stream to cover their costs and can offset the cost of perhaps—and this is in response to the noble Lord, their insurance for tax purposes, so they are different. Lord Campbell-Savours—only 0.5% of such households Flood Re, I emphasise, is concerned with helping to are in the five lowest income deciles, which translates protect those relatively few low-income households to roughly 45 properties in flood risk areas. from high insurance premia. My noble friend Lady The 2009 cut-off date recognises that new housing Parminter was, perhaps, sceptical of the suggestion of developments should be located to avoid flood risk; or a lack of evidence. A government survey of more than where development in a flood-risk area is necessary, 9,000 businesses in England estimated that fewer than they should be designed to be safe and appropriately 1% of businesses had experienced difficulty obtaining resilient to flooding and not to increase flood risk property insurance in the last year due to the risk of elsewhere, in line with the national planning policies in flooding, and that no businesses had been refused place. This date therefore reflects the fact that homes insurance cover due to the risk of flooding. built since then should already be insurable at affordable For these reasons, we do not think that Flood Re prices. would be the right solution for this diverse sector. As noble Lords may know, when the agreement While there does not appear to be a systemic problem between government and the insurance industry, known with small businesses being able to obtain flood as the statement of principles, was signed in 2008, it insurance—and our public consultation endorsed our was agreed that there should be a cut-off date, which approach—I recognise that some in areas of high was set at 1 January 2009. That marker has been in flood risk may face specific issues. As my honourable operation for several years and has been maintained friend, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Water, under Flood Re proposals. To be clear, there has been Dan Rogerson, said in Committee in the other place, no change in policy. Therefore for the reasons that I the Government and the Association of British Insurers have set out, we believe that the proposed exclusion of have both committed to monitoring the market for properties built after January 2009 and band H properties flood insurance, including that for small businesses. If is fair and in line with the Government’s objective. sufficient evidence emerges of a problem for businesses, then we have both agreed to look at possible solutions. This research will be published and I will be happy to Lord Campbell-Savours: I just want to press the place a copy of that report in the Library when it is noble Lord on band H. As I said, I myself have no published. interest in it. However, in light of what has happened in the Thames Valley, is there not an argument for Amendments 160 in the name of the noble Lord, reviewing those figures that the Minister has just given Lord Whitty, and Amendment 160ZA in the name of to the House, particularly as regards the percentage of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, seek to require the Secretary people on lower incomes who by chance happen to live of State to prepare and publish reports on the numbers in those rather expensive properties? of properties which would be out of the scope of Flood Re, including properties built after 1 January 2009, Band H properties, leasehold properties and private Lord De Mauley: I am of course quite happy to review rented properties. It is very clear from his amendment the figures and to write to the noble Lord on that. that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has clearly understood On Amendment 160ZA on reporting on leasehold that any increase in the amount of policies ceded to and private rented sector policies, I see that we will Flood Re would need to be funded by others. Indeed, also discuss the proposals in this regard on Flood Re he explained that in his speech on the amendments. It later on today. However, before I come on to the specific is important that helping households at high risk does subject of reporting, I remind noble Lords that the not lead to price rises for others. key issue in determining the scope of Flood Re is 567 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 568

[LORD DE MAULEY] Lastly, I turn to Amendments 161B and 161C in the whether the policy for a particular property is treated name of my noble friend Lady Bakewell and Amendment as commercial or residential by the industry. Commercial 161D in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, to policies are out of scope of Flood Re, which is designed Clause 69, the purpose of which would be to define all to support households. We believe this approach is fair mixed-use properties as household premises for the and practical, and it was supported in the public purposes of the register under the flood insurance consultation. However, we recognise that the leasehold obligation, the Government’s fallback policy. This could sector presents a more complex situation, where the include a very large range of premises, including many contents policy is classified as domestic but the buildings that are beyond the scope of the policy intention. The policy could be classified as either commercial or broad intention is that eligibility for inclusion on the domestic and could cover multiple dwellings. register for the purposes of the flood insurance obligation I have listened to representatives of the property would be based on publicly available data about the sector who have come forward with concerns about level of flood risk. the impact of the proposed approach on the leasehold I remind noble Lords that the criteria for inclusion sector. They highlighted in particular that those in a on the register for the purposes of the obligation are smaller building might find it difficult to afford cover different from the eligibility criteria for Flood Re, and in the open market. The ABI has assured me that there therefore some of the exclusions and inclusions may is no evidence of a systemic problem with freeholders be different. Where Flood Re considers eligible policies, being able to obtain insurance for their leasehold the obligation would be based on eligible properties. properties, which I am sure noble Lords will agree is The intention is to use the same definitions where very welcome. However, given the strength of feeling possible, but these also need to be consistent with the on the matter, particularly in light of the ongoing criteria used for defining domestic properties by the extreme weather conditions, we need to take time to administrators of the register, the Environment Agency consider it in more detail, although without evidence and its counterparts in the devolved Administrations. of market failure it will be difficult to justify action. Before regulating under the Bill, we would need to We will examine the evidence further with the ABI consult fully on the definitions and any possible exclusions, and hope to provide an update on Report. We will also not least to ensure that they are clear and can be continue to monitor this sector over time, as a part of consistently applied across the UK. the commercial insurance market. I will focus briefly on the subject of the private The Delegated Powers Committee has recommended rented sector. I take this opportunity to explain that it that these definitions be subject to the affirmative is proposed that buildings insurance cover for landlords procedure and we are carefully considering this would be out of scope for Flood Re, although contents recommendation. I hope this reassures noble Lords cover for tenants would be eligible. At this stage I that, should the flood insurance obligation ever need reiterate my declaration of an interest as owner of a to be used, the definitions would be subject to appropriate property that flooded in 2007. The reason that landlords’ scrutiny, and that their amendments are not necessary. policies are out of scope is primarily because insurers Understandably, there has been much interest in those classify all types of landlord insurance as commercial who may not benefit from Flood Re or the obligation. business, while Flood Re is designed for the domestic However, we must not lose sight of the hundreds of market. However, it is also important to recognise that thousands of householders who will benefit. The the inclusion of landlords would effectively mean that Government are satisfied that, overall, the proposed people who do not own their own home could, through approach is fair and targeted towards those most in their contents premium, subsidise people who own need of support. However, it is always important that several. the effect of any policy is reviewed as time goes on. Flood Re targets support towards those least able That is why we have committed to monitoring the to pay, through council tax bands. A landlord’s ability market over time, and to publishing these findings. to pay cannot be judged against the council tax band Should the evidence point to a specific issue for domestic of the property he lets. For example, the landlord of a household insurance, we will discuss with the industry council tax band A property could receive the maximum what might be possible. support if landlords were to be included, even if they Turning to Amendment 161, I recognise noble Lords’ were perfectly able to pay. Landlords already benefit concern that Flood Re should help households at high from tax relief on the cost of their buildings insurance flood risk. To ensure value for money, should households policy. They can offset many of their costs through with policies in Flood Re flood repeatedly and not taxable allowances which can significantly reduce their take action, their continuing eligibility to benefit from tax bill. the public subsidy provided by Flood Re may need to 5pm be considered. Constructive discussions continue with Returning to the subject of reporting on the availability the industry on how those who may over time make of affordable insurance for this sector, I should like to themselves ineligible for further public subsidy should point out that the insurance industry is clear that the be treated. majority of landlords would be able to find a more It is important that there should be a challenge competitive rate outside Flood Re. However, as is the mechanism if an individual exclusion from Flood Re case for the rest of the small business sector, the were unjustified. I can confirm that the Government Government and the industry will continue to monitor will not designate the scheme until we are satisfied the situation. I hope that this provides reassurance as with the industry’s proposals. These could include the to our intentions in this regard. need to have in place a proportionate challenge mechanism 569 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 570 for any households that are deemed to have become that are based on them will be a necessary part of this ineligible. The regulations setting up and designating transition. I appreciate that the noble Earl thinks that Flood Re will be subject to public consultation and Flood Re may not be the place to deal with this and I we are currently considering the Delegated Powers am very happy to continue discussions with him on Committee’s recommendation that regulations made that matter. under this clause should be subject to the affirmative For the reasons I have set out, I hope that my noble procedure. However, Flood Re is not a compulsory friend will withdraw the amendment. scheme and insurers may choose whether or not to cede the flood risk element of policies to it. Householders should, therefore, continue to shop around to get the Lord Oxburgh: Before the Minister sits down, I best deal. hope he can help me with a small matter, which nevertheless would be significant for a minority. Given Moreover, it is important to recognise that the the duration of the scheme, there is likely to be a relationship between the insurer and the householder rebanding of council tax during that time. Somewhere will not be affected by the introduction of Flood Re. it needs to be made explicit what will happen to people Under the current regulatory regime for financial services who move up into, for example, band H during that there exists a conduct of business regulator, the Financial time. Conduct Authority, and a separate complaints-handling service, the Financial Ombudsman Service. The Financial Conduct Authority sets the rules regarding the treatment Lord De Mauley: I can count on the noble Lord to of customers, the behaviour of firms and the functioning think of something that I did not arrive in the Committee of the market. The Financial Ombudsman Service is equipped to answer. If I may, I will write to him. an independent entity that makes a judgment against these rules should an individual consumer have a Lord Moynihan: My Lords, I am very grateful to dispute which they cannot resolve through contacting noble Lords on all sides of the Committee for the their insurer. I will be meeting noble Lords before interest they have shown in this issue. Their contributions Report and will be happy to provide an update to have demonstrated how critical it is and what should them, and I will come back on Report with more be in and what is out. I place on record my thanks to details of how those who flood repeatedly might be my noble friend the Minister for a very comprehensive treated. reply on a lot of issues that have been raised on all I shall address some of the questions that noble sides of the Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell- Lords asked. My noble friend Lady Bakewell asked Savours, is a noble friend on this issue since I am in about mixed-use properties—mixed hereditaments. Under complete agreement with him. I do not agree with him the ABI’s proposed approach, mixed-use properties on every occasion but I certainly do on this one. I say would be out of scope for buildings insurance although to him that it is not just that some householders did contents cover for domestic homes in the property not buy their properties as band H properties; it is that would be included. However, as with other commercial there is no absolute correlation between personal wealth policies, these tend to be priced to risk and do not have and band H occupancy, a point that I sought to the same systemic issues that residential policies may demonstrate at Second Reading. If you accept that face. principle, surely it is wrong that band H should be automatically excluded. Indeed, the Minister, in his The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, raised a number of reply, mentioned the 45 properties that were in need of issues. I have mentioned several times the report of the support; that is, owned by people who were not wealthy Delegated Powers Committee. I am grateful to that but would be automatically excluded as the Bill is committee for its work and welcome its scrutiny of the drafted. Bill. It reported at the end of last week and we will respond to its report before Report. We will consider My noble friends Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord very carefully each of its amendments and, of course, Cathcart mentioned how complicated it would be to respond accordingly. change the Bill to take appropriate care of small businesses. I agree that the Bill is complicated; it is The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, asked about definitions. complicated throughout. However, surely the thoughts We recognise the desire to give greater certainty about of this House are with the SMEs, the pubs, the guest what is meant by the terms in the Bill, but believe that houses and the farms that have been devastated by the this needs to be balanced with the further public recent floods and cannot now secure affordable insurance consultation which is intended. Specifically for those provision. They have been hit incredibly hard. If it is terms relevant to the Flood Re scheme, a number of not through Flood Re, surely we should be looking to areas of detail relate to the arrangements under which deliver support for SMEs through an appropriate insurance contracts are written by the industry. provision. I argue that the Bill is the right vehicle to The noble Earl also asked a question related to do that. mortgage availability, and I am grateful to him for I appreciate that my noble friend Lord Cathcart raising it. We have always been clear that Flood Re is a was eloquent in the detail he went into to secure his transitional measure aimed at smoothing the move to insurance for his egg business—or “an” egg business, an open market over the lifetime of the scheme. If to be fair to him. Such expertise cannot be expected to property owners do not take action to lessen the reside with every publican or small business at the impacts over this period, it is likely that they could centre of communities serving important commercial face higher premiums when the scheme comes to an and social roles. We should look very carefully at this end. Adjustments in asset prices and mortgage decisions matter at a later stage. 571 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 572

[LORD MOYNIHAN] (b) the role and effectiveness in reducing flood risk of those My amendment simply allows us to study that in organisations with a duty to co-operate … and detail. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord (c) the effectiveness of the delivery of the National Flood Management Whitty, for his support. I am also grateful to my noble Strategy”. friend Lord Campbell-Savours for highlighting the It means that we have to confirm, and regularly reconfirm, fact that this market will have markedly changed in the the capacity and performance of all the organisations past three months. Of that, there is no doubt whatever. involved in reducing flood risk. These will include It is incumbent on your Lordships’ House and the developers, local government officers and their planning Government to look at the extent to which that market committees, building contractors and building inspectors. has changed and to which we need to respond to those We should also look at how national organisations, market changes. which have a tendency to be centralised, work effectively While I hope that further consideration will be given with local knowledge, and how that local knowledge is to these issues—I, for one, will seek to bring them back incorporated into the decision-making processes of for further consideration—for the time being, I place the national agencies. on record again my thanks to the Minister for his I understand that there have been instances where answer and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. properties built since 2009 have flooded or caused other properties to flood. We need to know better than we Amendment 155 withdrawn. do how big a problem this is, how often the flooding 5.15 pm was due to flood waters exceeding the risk anticipated, and how often it was due to poor design or poor construction. Amendment 155A I was somewhat concerned to discover that the Moved by Lord Shipley Environment Agency comments only on larger 155A: Clause 51, page 107, line 20, at end insert— developments. It is understandable why that is the “( ) Within 24 months of this Act coming into force, the case, but in 2012-13—here I am quoting from DCLG Secretary of State must review the effectiveness of the delivery of planning policy in achieving low levels of flood risk for new statistics—local planning authorities received 455,500 developments by examining— planning applications and the Environment Agency (a) the system of planning policy delivery, provided responses to 30,251 of them; that is, 6.6% of the total. Obviously, most planning applications are (b) the role and effectiveness in reducing flood risk of those organisations with a duty to cooperate under the Flood small ones in which the Environment Agency need not and Water Management Act 2010, or their equivalents in have a role. However, we need to be clear whether the the devolved administrations, and Environment Agency should have a formal, statutory (c) the effectiveness of the delivery of the National Flood consultation role in more planning applications than Management Strategy.” is currently the case. The current position is that the bulk of applications, including those for high surface Lord Shipley: My Lords, in 2008 when serious water flood risk areas, are being dealt with entirely by flooding hit Northumberland, parts of Newcastle and planning committees and their officers, who follow several parts of the north, and 1,000 people had to be national guidance. One assumes that they follow that moved out of their homes in Morpeth, it was a major guidance, but it also means that the cumulative impact learning exercise for the statutory authorities; that is, of many small developments is not commented on the Environment Agency, Northumbrian Water, the and may not be taken into account. There is a further local councils and the emergency services in particular. issue. At a time of reducing resources in local government, It was a major learning exercise because they had to is everyone confident that all councils have the technical respond properly and to work well together in the expertise to handle the complex drainage issues that public interest. arise? The Government need to be certain that they In the years leading up to the 2010 Act, I wondered have all of the evidence they need, and therefore a how much of a help that would be in defining the duty review within 24 months should be undertaken. to co-operate to make sure that all the agencies involved I want to make a last point. I am concerned that we in dealing with flood and flood risk would manage to may be being too ambitious for sustainable urban work effectively together. In the main, that has happened, drainage systems schemes. I understand from a press although in Somerset it has become unclear whether report I read a couple of days ago that 10% of the that duty has worked effectively, given the Environment homes now being built are on flood plains. Of those, Agency’s statement that it offered to dredge on the 1% to 2% are in high-risk areas. If the right preventive Somerset Levels if other partners joined it. I do not measures are put in place, which can include such have all the details but I raise the point simply to schemes, it is not necessarily a problem that 10% of demonstrate that the duty to co-operate between the new homes are being built on flood plains. However, agencies matters very much. an important statement of the obvious is this: SUDS This amendment asks for a review within 24 months. do not work on flood plains when there is substantial Given the changes in flooding patterns around us, we flooding. I guess we all know this, but I am concerned need to be clearer about how the planning and risk that there is a cumulative impact on planning permission management systems are working in practice. The for small developments; or, rather, I would like to be amendment would enable a review of the effectiveness convinced that that is not the case. I would like to be of the delivery of planning policy in achieving lower certain as well that there is not an overdependence on levels of flood risk for new developments by examining, SUDS schemes being seen as a solution to the problem “(a) the system of planning policy delivery, when they may well not be. 573 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 574

This is a probing amendment, and I hope that the was the subject of substantial flooding some years Minister will agree that it is important that, within ago. After that flood event some years ago, I was 24 months, there should be a review of planning asked to set up a group in Keswick to hold discussions policy and flood risk management and delivery, and with the Environment Agency and United Utilities on that two years is really the maximum period within what action could be taken to reduce the incidence of which that should be undertaken, particularly in view flooding in Keswick. Our group’s case was simple: of current circumstances. I beg to move. Thirlmere could be used for flood alleviation purposes as well as for water storage. If we retained within Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords, I intend Thirlmere sufficient unused water storage capacity, in to use Amendment 155A as a peg for discussing what times of predicted heavy rainfall we could use the is described—in paragraph (c) of the new subsection reservoir to control the flow of water into the Greta that the amendment would insert into Clause 51—as, through Keswick and substantially reduce the incidence “the effectiveness of the delivery of the National Flood Management of flooding in the Keswick area. Strategy”. In the beginning, United Utilities resisted because In particular, I want to highlight limitations on the it meant the release of its valuable asset—water. However, current arrangement under that strategy and how over time it adopted a more reasonable approach and those could be modified. I shall draw on a particular agreed to reduce the level of the reservoir in the example by praying in aid a particular case. months of high rainfall, primarily in the autumn, In 1990, Thames Water proposed a reservoir in winter and early spring. We set target water levels for Oxfordshire. Its plan set out how the company could each month in the meters below the spillover at the meet demand up to the year 2015 for water supply in head of the reservoir and the dam head. When the the south-east of England. Its proposal was for a reservoir is too full, water is released. Many people in reservoir on land south-west of Abingdon in the Vale the town believe it has served the town well and of White Horse. In 2008, some 18 years later, Thames avoided substantial flooding over recent years, despite Water held a consultation on its draft water resource the fact that on occasions they have had trouble releasing management plan for meeting water demand up to sufficient water due to mechanical release valve difficulties. 2032. The draft plan again included a proposal for the Let us return to Abingdon and what has happened Abingdon reservoir. If it appears that I am speaking over the past week in the Thames Valley. I refer again slightly obliquely to the amendment, I am sure that to the interest I declared earlier. Why can we not have noble Lords will soon recognise the relationship between a similar arrangement for Abingdon? Why can we not what I have to say and the amendment on the Marshalled bring back the proposal for a reservoir on the Abingdon List. In 2009, following a process of consultation, the site with a dual purpose? The first would be water management plan from Thames Water was amended storage to meet increased demand in the south, and and the reservoir reduced in size, and in 2010 there was with the proposed development of new towns in the a public inquiry. In March 2011, the Secretary of south that is part of the Government’s housing strategy, State, Caroline Spelman, announced her decision to there will be increased demand—indeed, at the moment remove the proposal for a reservoir at Abingdon from demand in drought periods is not being sufficiently the management plan. The reasons were, primarily, met. Secondly, the reservoir could be used for flood that Thames Water could not prove a risk to current alleviation purposes, with target storage levels providing water supplies and, secondly, that insufficient consideration for controlled releases into the River Thames. had been given to transfer and reuse schemes. Let us go back to the Thames Valley.The communities It was argued that water available in other parts of that have suffered over the past week know that there the United Kingdom could be transferred to the south- is no way of resolving their problem in the long term. west of England, although when I was doing a little You cannot build defences along the Thames on the research on this last week I could not understand how scale necessary to protect the towns and villages— it was impossible to prove that there was not a risk to Wraysbury, Datchet, Chertsey, Staines, Sunbury and the water supply in the south-west of England when all those towns; it is impossible. We have to find a over a number of years, certainly in the early 2000s, we solution further up the system. I have raised this in were being told that reservoirs were empty almost relation to this amendment because I believe that the throughout the United Kingdom. There were blocks solution is to create large areas that can be pooled and on the use of water for gardening, and I understand used for flood alleviation in the future. that in some areas there was even talk of introducing It seems to me that to secure that objective, the law standpipes for the water supply. Nevertheless, that was needs to be reviewed. We need to strengthen the hand the decision taken at that time by the Secretary of of those who wish to use reservoirs in this way. As I State. I suspect that there was more nimby in the understand the current statute, there is no statutory decision than a proper evaluation of water supply and requirement—a power available to the Environment demand. I understand that the next review is due in Agency or to the Government—placed on water 2018-19. companies to use their assets in the way that I suggest. Why is all this relevant? To answer that question, we I hope that what I am suggesting today is followed up have to move north to Cumbria, to Thirlmere. Thirlmere in the communities that have been affected over the supplies water to Manchester. Thirlmere is a reservoir past week by this vast, insuperable problem of flooding, above the town of Keswick—where I have lived most because they need to look long-term as to what the of my life—which feeds water from the dam down the solution is, and the solution is not in flood defences. Greta river through Keswick, down through Bassenthwaite The solution is upstream. I hope that they follow up Lake, down the Derwent and on to Workington, which my suggestions. In Abingdon there will no doubt be 575 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 576

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] development control, raises some important issues on some difficulty over the proposal, but we all have to the ground. These need to go beyond the question of stand together to find ways to resolve the problem. new-build developments alone. I do not know whether Unless it is dealt with soon, it will have calamitous the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, intended to address just implications for the future. new-build developments but if he did, perhaps I could digress into the area of what we do about some of the 5.30 pm existing building stock, which I flagged up at Second Baroness Parminter: My Lords, briefly, I support Reading. I alluded then to the desirability of making my noble friend Lord Shipley on this important conditions concerning the containing of surface water amendment. We are rightly spending the majority of run-off within existing individual properties, as opposed our time today discussing a financial vehicle to deliver to just allowing each to discharge it on to the next affordable flood insurance, but the planning system property downstream. has a vital role in making our country more resilient I wondered whether this might be made retroactive for the future. On the potential effects of cuts in local to a degree, perhaps by requiring extensions and alterations authority budgets on their ability to undertake their to existing properties to incorporate, in appropriate important planning functions, which my noble friend circumstances, a surface water attenuation scheme. I mentioned, I add that a review in 24 months’ time is do not believe that this is a general requirement but sensible, given that in the intervening 24 months there there are precedents. For instance, if you renew the will be further significant cuts to the Environment roof covering of your house, you are often obliged to Agency’s budget, with an expected cut of more than upgrade the insulation of the roof of your property. 550 staff. There is an analogy there. Surface water attenuation Given the scenes we have seen in recent days, it on a per property basis could also be combined not would be only too easy for people, rightly, to make the only with water conservation, but with habitat-friendly case that we must protect front-line staff in the outcomes. The same thing could apply to the principle Environment Agency. However, it is equally important of reducing vulnerability of the property itself—a to look appropriately at people in the back room who point made earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady are working hard on the consultations on significant Parminter—in connection with quite ordinary adaptations planning applications for developments of more than that can be put in place to prevent properties being so 10 houses or one hectare. Equally, it is important that severely affected by flooding, should it happen. There the national flood management strategy, which the is also the question of community-based schemes to EA devised in 2011, is carried forward. protect groups of buildings. I referred to the Lower I add my support. The timeline that my noble friend Don Valley scheme, but there are others. Lord Shipley has suggested of 24 months is apposite One of the things that has come out—sorry, that is given the need to review some of the resource constraints probably a bad term—or rather, has arisen recently is that both local authorities and the Environment Agency the question of making foul drainage systems safer, so will face in the forthcoming months. that if flooding does happen, flood water does not turn into a solution of dilute sewage, adding health Lord Krebs: My Lords, I too support the amendment hazards to all the other problems of clean-up. That of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. I have already declared requires special measures, not least because shared an interest as the chairman of the adaptation sub- sewer pipes that are on private property but are ultimately committee of the Committee on Climate Change. The connected to a public sewer are now the responsibility sub-committee has a useful data set that could be of the statutory sewage undertaker. I have this terrible brought to bear were this review to happen. It has feeling that they have no idea of the routes, the condition developed a set of indicators, which are published, for or the materials of half of these pipes for which they the resilience of planning decisions in relation to present have now inherited responsibility.They have my sympathy and future risks from flooding, particularly from future in that respect. impacts of climate change. For example, it has looked The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, referred to building at the implementation of SUDS, at the implementation on flood plains. My only point there is that protecting of household measures that could provide protection properties so that they are themselves secure against at the individual property level and at planning decisions flooding is one thing. Transferring risks to properties to develop in the flood plain. As has already been said elsewhere is self-defeating. My difficulty is that I am by the noble Lord, development in the flood plain has not sure that a holistic approach is taken to dealing been going ahead faster than development elsewhere, with the totality of flood plains. Often, these may be but this is not necessarily a bad thing. If the properties in more than one local planning authority area, so are appropriately protected, either by community-level there may be problems of co-ordination. With regard measures or by individual household measures, the to that, the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, referred to the risks can be managed. The sub-committee has a data competence and capacity of local government and the set and a set of indicators that could be useful were the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, referred to reductions Government minded to accept the amendment moved in Environment Agency budgets that might affect its by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. ability to have this overarching, integrated view. I worry about that. It is vital that the sort of report that The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, I welcome the the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has in mind covers all opportunity to debate this important point. I declare a these aspects. If we start leaving bits out, we shall be professional interest in aspects of planning. The question no further forward in a few years’ time than we are of planning policy and its co-runner, which it informs, now. 577 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 578

I draw attention to the catchment area management Agency. The amendment has also prompted some plan referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- interesting suggestions from my noble friend Lord Savours. I have some experience of this, not all of it Campbell-Savours, so it is worthy of further assessment edifying. In at least one instance, I found that half the by the Government. catchment area concerned, the upstream half, was missing from the plan. The only fact that I could Baroness Northover (LD): My Lords, we strongly ascertain was that the owner of the missing part was support the intention behind this amendment. The the National Trust. I am unsure what conclusions I importance of managing the impact of flooding has should draw from that, but if you have a catchment been brought into very sharp focus recently, and my management plan, the boundary of it has to be drawn noble friend has made a cogent case for ensuring that along the watershed. No other boundary is possible. all those involved, whether builders, local councils, The simple arithmetic that was drummed into me, inspectors or national organisations, are fulfilling what probably from O-level geography onwards, has not is required of them in terms of capacity and performance escaped me. Making up rules to suit as one goes along in reducing flood risk. will not wash. I am sorry for that terminology as well. My noble friends Lord Shipley and Lady Parminter Some time ago, I attended a professional lecture on made the case for a review of planning policy delivery. restoring part of southern Exmoor to a peat bog so Planning policy for flooding is set out in the National that it would hold more water and release it more Planning Policy Framework. The framework was published slowly into the River Barle and the River Exe systems. by the Department for Communities and Local It had something to do with pumping and repumping Government in March 2012 following extensive public water back into Wimbleball reservoir, which I shall consultation and is supported by practice guidance. It not go into. I nicknamed the scheme the “Exmoor sets strict tests to protect people and property from sponge”. I do not think anyone else has used that flooding, which all local councils must follow. We have term. There is nothing wrong with such projects, but if been very clear that where these tests are not met, new they do not have durable management structures that development should not be allowed. are proof against misuse for commercial objectives, The framework states that councils should plan the neglect because of spending cuts, simply being forgotten, location of new development to avoid areas of flood or participant landowners deciding that there are better risk where possible. Only if no sites are available in land uses that they would rather adopt, they will fail. areas of lower risk of flooding can local councils even There need to be more durable ways of dealing with begin to consider whether to allow development in these things. That is the sum total of the points that I areas where there is a higher risk. For logical reasons, wish to make. The last of them probably goes a bit this is known in planning terminology as the sequential beyond the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, test. Where the sequential test has shown that it is not Lord Shipley, but it was worth mentioning in the possible, consistent with wider sustainability objectives, context of what was said by the noble Lord, Lord to locate in an area with a lower risk of flooding, Campbell-Savours. then—depending on the flood risk—a second stringent test must be met before a development can go ahead. Lord Grantchester (Lab): My Lords, the amendment This is called the exception test, which provides a very would set up a review of recent outcomes of planning strong safeguard. To pass the exception test, you must policy in terms of flood risk for new developments. It show that the development provides wider benefits to has received widespread support around the Committee. the community that outweigh the flood risk and that it The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has already will be safe for its lifetime without increasing flood highlighted how the market will change following risk elsewhere—which was another point that noble recent events. In view of the terrible situation that has Lords flagged up. Where possible, the development resulted from recent weather events in Somerset and will reduce flood risk overall, such as through new the Thames Valley, which may well trigger a wide-ranging flood defences. If there is a risk of flooding, a planning of flood risk policy, it makes sense to ask why there application has to be supported by a site-specific flood has been more building on low-lying and flood risk risk assessment. This is important because, where areas in the past four years, even allowing for the there is a risk of flooding, councils should give the guidance to which the Minister has already referred go-ahead to new development only where, following today. There has been plenty of notice since 2007 that the sequential and, if required, the exception tests, it not all property in areas that might be developed can be demonstrated that what is to be built is flood would be eligible for flood insurance. Recent floods resilient and resistant, and, as necessary, includes safe have highlighted that there may be errors in the guidance. access and escape routes. Quite simply, in terms of Nor have successful protection measures been achieved. flood risk, if there are better sites for developments, or Why has planning allowed development to take developments demonstrated to be necessary are not place against a background of increased perception of made safe, they should not be permitted. flooding potential following the floods in 2007 and in 2012? As the Government, the Environment Agency 5.45 pm and planning authorities—indeed, the whole country—will The delivery of planning policy is subject to strict be reassessing flood defences and expenditure, a review scrutiny. Very importantly, local plans, which allocate of where we are now would make eminent sense. land for new development, are tested at a public I was struck by the comments of the noble Lord, examination by an independent inspector. Plans must Lord Shipley, on the cumulative development effect, be consistent with national policy in order to be found which would be worth of the attention of the Environment sound and be based on an up-to-date assessment of 579 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 580

[BARONESS NORTHOVER] accountable authorities. To reassure the noble Earl, flood risk—the strategic flood risk assessment. All Lord Lytton, the Environment Agency helps to provide councils are obliged to have these strategic flood risk the national overview that he seeks. assessments. My noble friend Lord Shipley suggested that we Under planning law, applications for new development need to know better whether properties built since must be determined in accordance with the local plan 2009 are flooding or making others flood. One of the unless material considerations indicate otherwise. The benefits of the memorandum of understanding between National Planning Policy Framework would be a material the Government and insurers last year, which I will consideration, as would any new information on flooding, come on to in the next group, is that for the first time such as updated flood maps published by the Environment we will have access to claims from flooding. This Agency. information will be used by the Environment Agency As well as inputting to the preparation of local and its equivalents to target flood risk investment and plans, the Environment Agency is a statutory consultee could be used to inform policy development. In this for applications in flood risk areas, so local councils context, I also note what the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, must consult it. The agency will advise local councils said about his data sets. Clearly, the more information in line with the policy in the framework. We know that we have, the better. I am sure that those data sets will local councils pay attention to that advice because the be of interest both to Defra and to the Environment agency both monitors and reports publicly on the Agency. planning applications on which it was consulted for Let me see whether I am inspired by the note I have detailed flood risk advice and on the impact of its been handed. advice. My noble friend noted the number of applications that the Environment Agency sees. Where the outcome is not known, which is what the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, is talking about, the agency My noble friend Lord Shipley asked whether councils is satisfied that there is no significant difference in the have the expertise to deal with flooding. We have no outcomes between those cases reported and those not reason to believe that they do not have sufficient reported by authorities. I hope that that reassures the access to the right advice and expertise. The Environment noble Lord. It is, of course, important that all these Agency has standing advice on its website for councils areas continue to be probed, because everybody needs to use for lower-risk applications. As I have mentioned, to be reassured that that is, indeed, the case. it has a statutory duty to comment on applications where there is a higher flood risk. Coming back to the assessments that are taking As I have mentioned, the Environment Agency place, high-level reports are produced annually, with is a statutory consultee for both residential and more detailed reports provided to coincide with the commercial planning applications. It takes a risk-based six-year cycle of the flood risk regulations. Further approach to examining applications. It concentrates interim reports may be produced as directed by the on major developments, rather than on applications Government to support policy decisions such as future for individual properties, and on areas at the highest government spending reviews. The Government also risk of flooding. conduct regular reviews of the effectiveness of policy delivery. For example, a review of the impact of the I can reassure noble Lords that the most recent new partnership approach to flood risk management agency report, for 2012-13, shows that 99% of proposed funding has just concluded. There are also two reviews new residential units to which the Environment Agency of flood risk management in progress at the moment objected on flood risk grounds were decided in line and one at a scoping stage. I listened to the comparison with agency advice where those decisions are known. by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, of the This proportion has remained very similar over a situations in Abingdon and Keswick. My noble friend number of years. Lord Younger, who was in his place a moment ago, noted this with interest and passed me a very interesting Lord Krebs: In the case of the Environment Agency comment, but I hear what the noble Lord said and I lodging an objection, in what proportion of cases was will make sure that his suggestion is fed through to the it informed of the outcome? In the review that the relevant authorities. adaptation sub-committee carried out in 2012, we Coming back to the general reviews, in addition to found that in nearly a third of instances where the those I mentioned, my right honourable friend Oliver Environment Agency had been consulted, it did not Letwin MP is leading a review of the lessons learned know the outcome because it had not been informed. from the recent flooding, particularly the tidal surge, Has that figure changed? and the other review is looking at the resilience of key infrastructure to major coastal flooding. Both of these Baroness Northover: I hope to get an inspired answer are expected to complete in the spring. Defra is also any second in order to be able to tell the noble Lord. If scoping an evaluation of the effectiveness of the Flood do not get inspired, I will write to him. and Water Management Act 2010, which I hope will I remind noble Lords that the Environment Agency reassure my noble friend and which will initially focus is already required, under Section 18 of the Flood and on local flood risk management. Under the Act, lead Water Management Act, to report on the delivery of local flood authorities and other risk management the national flood and coastal erosion risk management authorities have a duty to co-operate with each other, strategy for England. These reports must include as he noted, to ensure that constructive and active information on all sources of flood risk and coastal engagement takes place and helps to build local erosion, and cover the work of all of the relevant relationships between relevant authorities within and 581 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 582 across operational boundaries. We noted what he said Lord, Lord Krebs, referred or some other, but given about Northumberland and Somerset. Work on this that we are working on a 25-year timescale it said that evaluation is anticipated to start later this year. We this figure will have increased by the 2020s to between therefore feel that proposed new paragraphs (b) and 475,000 and 825,000 and by the 2030s to between (c) of this amendment would duplicate existing planned 525,000 and 1 million. That is a pretty big increase. By work. the end of the 2030s, the end of the 25-year period, it I hope that my noble friend is reassured by what I is potentially three times what we are talking about have said and that he will be content to withdraw his now. amendment. Obviously, some mitigation will happen, but regrettably the level of flood defence expenditure fell—it is now rising again, but it fell—and the figures that have been Lord Shipley: My Lords, I am grateful to all those used in these calculations show that there is a gap who have taken part in this debate. I shall just take up between the required expenditure and what is likely to one question posed by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, be needed of about £500 million over the period of about whether this concerns only new properties. The 20 years. That means that we have a significant problem amendment refers to new developments but, for the in defining what is at risk in 10 or 20 years and avoidance of any doubt, that includes any building therefore where Flood Re has to get to in terms of its post-2009, not any building purely in the future. I am financial arithmetic and the number of properties that very grateful for the Minister’s reassurances. We have it is going to cover. The Committee on Climate Change to think further about what she said, in particular can advise on the likely change in crude numbers—indeed, about the role of the Environment Agency as a statutory it already has. It can apply probabilities to that, it can consultee and the extent to which that might be extended, indicate what degree of mitigation, at what likely cost, but I think we could look at that again on Report, is likely to offset this and it can look at the change in when we have had time to consider the points raised in the nature of the risk and the areas to which it applies. greater detail. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. It is important that both the Government and the administrator of Flood Re get strong, independent Amendment 155A withdrawn. assessments of this changing and growing risk. Indeed, this goes beyond climate change; there are Amendment 156 the interrelationships between climate change, population growth, distribution of population, development pressures, Moved by Lord Whitty water resource pressures, ecological consequences and 156: Clause 51, page 107, line 21, at end insert— so forth. The Committee on Climate Change and the “(8) Prior to making any regulations under subsection (5), the Adaptation Sub-Committee are the authoritative bodies Secretary of State shall require the Committee on Climate Change to do that and their role should be written into the Bill. to provide current and projected estimates of the number of My Amendment 156 does that and Amendment 158 properties that would be eligible for— would then require the Secretary of State to take (a) inclusion in the Flood Reinsurance Scheme; notice of the advice from the Committee on Climate (b) the value of levy required under section 53; and Change when setting targets under Clause 58 and (c) the likelihood of additional levy or contributions being more broadly. I beg to move. needed from time to time.” 6pm Lord Whitty: My Lords, I shall also speak to Lord Krebs: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Amendment 158. As we have discussed, actuarial Lord, Lord Whitty, for suggesting an additional task calculations for the establishment of Flood Re have for the Adaptation Sub-Committee of the Committee had to be pretty robust and tight, reflecting the level of on Climate Change. While recognising that that is a risk assessed by the insurers and by the Government at task that we could carry out, I just say that one this time, but we also all know that flood risk will important corollary would be that the committee would change over time. We cannot, therefore, establish Flood need access to the relevant data from Flood Re, Defra Re on a totally static basis; it needs to be a dynamic and the insurance industry. Given access to that process. The reality is that the numbers at high risk of information, the committee could, as the noble Lord flood damage are likely to increase, particularly, but suggests, provide an independent assessment for the not solely, because of the effects of climate change. Government, which I think would be helpful in seeing The Committee on Climate Change and its Adaptation how Flood Re is progressing. Sub-Committee are the key adviser to the Government on the numbers likely to be at risk of flood. Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, perhaps I may ask Over the next few years, Flood Re is supposed to the noble Lord whether the requirements should be operate in an area in which the Committee on Climate imposed before the regulations that bring the Flood Change has already indicated there will be a significant Re scheme into effect, or whether he is talking only increase in the numbers at significant risk of flood. about subsequent regulations. If that task has to be The definition of “significant” in this context is one in undertaken at the beginning, it might imperil the start 75 years. At the moment, that relates to about 370,000 of Flood Re. properties. The information that Defra put into the basis of the impact assessment derived from the Baroness Northover: My Lords, I am grateful to the Committee on Climate Change statistics. I am not noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for drawing attention to his sure whether it is the database to which the noble wish to ensure that that the policies set out in the 583 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 584

[BARONESS NORTHOVER] The Government and the Association of British legislation respond to the demands that climate change Insurers have worked hard to determine the value of may bring in future—in particular, by including a the levy required and the likelihood of the need for formal role for the Committee on Climate Change. I additional contributions, based on industry data and was not entirely sure whether the noble Lord, Lord assumptions that were subject to independent review Krebs, accepted that formal role. by Professor Stephen Diacon. In addition, extensive We fully agree that climate change and adaptation modelling, using a model that was quality-assured by to it are vital. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, added the the Government Actuary’s Department, has been carried additional factor of population growth. He rightly out by the Government using this data, as part of both challenges us on the uncertainty of the future and we the pre-consultation and post-consultation impact are very much aware of the need to plan for the future assessments. in this regard. Looking forward, the Environment Agency will The Committee on Climate Change and, in this continue to collect and analyse data on flood risk, respect, its Adaptation Sub-Committee play a very which will feed into the Government’s ongoing assessment important role in providing independent advice to the of the scheme. In addition, as Flood Re is directly Government. The information and analysis provided accountable to Parliament, detailed audited information since the committee’s inception have helped to shape about Flood Re’s ongoing operation will be reported the debate on climate change. Although the evidence to Parliament regularly. of climate change is becoming increasingly compelling, I turn now to the proposed role of the Committee it is clear that we need to do more to understand and on Climate Change in advising the Secretary of State plan for its impacts. This is a challenging task, given on setting the target number in relation to the flood how interrelated and unpredictable those effects are. insurance obligation. Clause 58 gives the Secretary of We have seen how variable the jet stream has been over State the power periodically to set a target for the the past few years, for example, and how it has brought proportion of properties on a register of properties at us drought and flood. greater flood risk that relevant insurers are collectively Although, clearly, dealing with the current devastating required to issue with insurance policies. The register, flooding is the immediate absolute priority, we also to be created by the Environment Agency and its need to reflect on our management of flood risk and counterparts in the devolved Administrations, will be assess our preparedness for climate change. The based on the flood risk maps published by those Government published the UK’s first national adaptation bodies. programme report in July 2013, which sets out the The number of properties indicated as subject to action that we propose to take. There is great expertise flood risk may change with time, as a consequence of in this country, not least in your Lordships’ Chamber, climate change or through better information and which we can access and are accessing, as well as mapping. The Secretary of State would set an overall learning lessons from elsewhere. target for the number of registered properties that the Specifically in relation to Flood Re, I assure noble industry as a whole needs to cover. In setting this Lords that climate change projections were considered target, the Secretary of State would consider evidence alongside other risk factors during the design of the on existing take-up rates of insurance and other relevant policy and that the effects of climate change will data. This could include advice from the Committee continue to be considered during future levy-setting on Climate Change, should the Secretary of State wish. discussions. I remind your Lordships that in the The setting of the target number is a decision memorandum of understanding with the industry that regarding the appropriate breadth of support that has been used to craft the Bill—I mentioned it in should be given by this financial support mechanism. relation to a previous group—we have recognised the Again, we believe that advising on the target number importance of the programme of flood defence and would be outside the committee’s current remit and, have committed to a specified amount of expenditure for reasons discussed in relation to Flood Re, would for 2015-16. However, we believe that advising on the not be the most appropriate use of its resources or scope and financial parameters for the transitional expertise. Flood Re scheme is a role for the insurance industry and would be outside the current remit of the Committee Although, for the reasons that I have set out, we do on Climate Change. not feel able to accept these specific amendments, I To clarify, the number of policies that would be would like to return for a moment to the wider spirit eligible for Flood Re is based solely on the cost of the behind them. We absolutely recognise that climate change flood risk component of any policy, which is set by the is a most important consideration for the management insurers. This assessment of flood risk will indeed of future flood risk and we value the expertise of the change over time, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, Committee on Climate Change. We are pleased that acknowledged, and it would not be possible for the the independent Adaptation Sub-Committee will be Committee on Climate Change to provide any estimates publishing a revised climate change risk assessment without detailed knowledge of industry pricing models. report in summer 2016. We will consider that evidence Similarly, the value of the levy required and the likelihood and any implications for flood risk management carefully of the need of any additional contribution by insurers once the report is received. is based on a number of financial parameters that Noble Lords know about various measures that we could change year on year. Those include the level of are putting in place to reduce the risks of flooding and premiums received, the cost of reinsurance and the coastal erosion, so I will not expand on that right now. amount of levy collected. I hope that the noble Lord will have been reassured by 585 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 586 what I have had to say, setting what we are doing here Lord Krebs: My Lords, in speaking to this amendment in the context of our deep understanding of the potential I will also speak to the other amendments standing in implications of climate change and the unpredictability my name. I can be brief because the issues raised in the of measuring it into the future. I hope that he will first of these amendments, and indeed in the second, withdraw the amendment. have already been thoroughly explored by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, in her amendment. Lord Whitty: My Lords, I thank the Minister, who Amendments 156C and 156D are really about clearly recognises the issue. I also thank the noble information for householders. I find it hard to see why Lord, Lord Krebs, who, I thought, accepted the additional one would object to giving householders information responsibility—although slightly conditionally. The that will help them now and in the future. The first conditionality was that the financial information, at part of Amendment 156C simply asks that Flood Re least in broad terms, would be available to the committee. should build awareness among householders of their I am a bit disappointed by the Minister’s reply. She own flood risk. Earlier this afternoon we heard the recognises clearly the importance of climate change in noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, alluding to a Defra defining the nature and scope of the problem. The website where information could be garnered, but the Government have an authoritative independent committee fact remains, from surveys of householders, that many available to them to feed into their deliberations, along of them are unaware that they are living in a flood risk with the administrator of Flood Re, but she is saying, area, and Flood Re has been designed to be invisible “Actually, the Minister might or might not take notice to the households concerned. As currently cast it will of what the Climate Change Committee says, but, in not give them any source of information. It is important any case, it is not the role of the Climate Change that we incorporate in the Bill the requirement for the Committee and the Adaptation Sub-Committee to Flood Re administrator to give households information talk about financial risk assessment”. That is not what about their risk. we are saying, though. To feed in to the risk assessment, The other part of this, in the addition of proposed you need the most authoritative input that you can new paragraph (f) at the end of line 25, is to again alert get, in order that the financial structure can be changed householders who might be affected to the fact that to reflect those increased risks, changed probabilities Flood Re is not a permanent arrangement, and that or changed distribution of risk. I would have thought there will be a transition. The transition is over a long that it would be useful to the Government to have it period—over 25 years, as we are now familiar with—but written into the Bill that they have an authoritative it is important that householders over that 25-year input on this from the Committee on Climate Change. period take action if they are at risk, to reduce their In response to the noble Lord, Lord Ashton, I am risk. Therefore it is important for households to have not looking for this input before we get Flood Re off transparent information about the nature of the transition the ground. I will be looking for an ongoing input. to risk-reflective prices that will arise at the end of The administrator of Flood Re, as well as the Government, Flood Re. It is hard to object to giving consumers is going to look increasingly for this kind of authoritative information. input. At the end of the day Flood Re is—despite its statutory base and its reporting to Parliament—a private I now move to Amendment 156D, the second of my body informed by the expertise of the insurance industry, amendments. Again, I can be brief about this. It but that expertise is itself informed by the best information requires Flood Re to be explicit about the plan for that can be got on risk. In my view, the best information transition, and to publish a transition plan so that the can be got is probably from the noble Lord, Lord householder concerned will know what to expect— Krebs, and the noble Lord, Lord Deben, who is no otherwise there will not be clarity for households. longer in his place. I would have thought they would Difficult decisions to gradually withdraw the benefits be the best and most authoritative sources to be relied of the scheme may continually be postponed, because on. I am surprised that they are not prepared to get it is always difficult to tell householders that they are that reflected in the Bill. For the moment, I withdraw going to lose a certain benefit that would arise through my amendment. the coverage of Flood Re. In order to avoid confusion it is important that the Bill sets out a requirement to Amendment 156 withdrawn. give a plan for the future, and therefore prevent Flood Re becoming a permanent and growing burden on the Clause 51 agreed. costs of insurance paid by other policyholders. So the Clauses 52 and 53 agreed. transition must take place at the end of the 25-year period, and my Amendment 156D seeks to ensure that Clause 54: Scheme administration a plan for the transition is published, so that we can have more confidence that it will take place, and when Amendments 156A and 156B not moved. it will take place.

Amendment 156C 6.15 pm Moved by Lord Krebs Amendment 156F has again largely been explored 156C: Clause 54, page 108, line 25, at end insert— in earlier discussions of the amendment of the noble “(e) the need to build awareness of local flood risk amongst Baroness, Lady Parminter. This is a way of proposing beneficiaries of the FR Scheme, the same thing but in a slightly different form. The (f) the need to inform beneficiaries of the FR Scheme of the discussion, as noble Lords will remember, was whether need to achieve transition to risk-reflective prices as some of the forecast surplus from Flood Re should be mentioned in paragraph (d).” invested in mitigation. This is a form of investment 587 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 588

[LORD KREBS] the Flood Re cap. Thirdly, risk-sharing would make now to save costs in the future. With the likely impacts Flood Re more likely to receive state aid approval, as of climate change, uncertain though they are, it is appropriate risk-sharing is likely to be one of the nevertheless likely that the extreme events we have factors that the European Commission would consider witnessed—for example, in the past couple of months— in any investigation. will become more frequent. We cannot tell by how The amendment would also introduce an element much and when that will happen. Nevertheless, investment of risk-reflective pricing for households in the Flood today to help make households more resilient is likely Re pool. I acknowledge that this has the downside that to save costs tomorrow. those at the highest flood risk may pay somewhat My amendment does not specify a pattern of more for their insurance than those who are just investment, but recognises that there could be surpluses within Flood Re’s scope. People will be asked to pay a in the early years of Flood Re. It is asking the small risk-reflective element premium in addition to administrator to encourage and support households the standard Flood Re cap, but that would reflect the to address the resilience of their properties and consider important role in managing claims that householders options, including investment in mitigation strategies themselves can play. Householders can take a number to make properties more resilient, and to publish a of actions to reduce their risk of flooding and the size plan for how Flood Re would use its resources to of any potential claim; we heard about some of those address the underlying risk. This is perhaps a short-term in earlier discussions. For example, we need to encourage cost to Flood Re, but a long-term saving. It is an people to sign up to flood warnings, to heed them “invest to save” amendment. when they are issued and to move valuable possessions Finally, I move on to Amendment 156G, which is and property away from floodwater if they can. something that has not been discussed so far. I will It seems appropriate that high-risk households, along explore this in a little more detail. The point of this with insurers, should retain a share of the risk in line amendment is to help preserve incentives on insurance with their scope to influence the size of potential companies and households to keep the costs of flood claims. There could be a concern—a very real one—that claims down. This is important, because unless claim this would make insurance policies less affordable, but costs are kept under control, the levy on the bills of the thresholds could be adjusted so that the net effect other households will need to rise. Under current was zero without increasing the size of the levy. People arrangements insurers have the incentive to get concerned by the risk-reflective element of their bill householders back in their homes as soon as possible, could shop around to find the insurer with the lowest because providing people with temporary accommodation risk assessment for their property. costs insurers money. In the future, Flood Re is set to The amendment would cement into the heart of bear all of these costs under the current proposals, Flood Re the important principle of appropriate risk- leaving no liability with the insurer managing the sharing. The exact proportion of each claim borne by claim. So what incentive will there be to keep claim the insurer could be subject to further debate and set costs down and get people home as quickly as possible? in regulations, but at least the amendment would A similar lack of insurer “skin in the game” has been ensure that the debate was had when the time came. blamed by the Competition Commission for a £150 million I beg to move. to £200 million rise in motor insurance premiums. Insurers may not care if home premiums rise if it Baroness Parminter: My Lords, I added my name to affects the whole market equally. Auditing of insurer Amendment 156D of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, claim costs post-event will be too little, too late, to and my related probing Amendment 156E has been control costs. grouped with it. Reinsurance products require an element of risk- At present, the Bill states that the Secretary of State sharing between the insurer and reinsurer. This is a has the option to bring in a review process for Flood sensible precaution by the reinsurer to avoid them Re, but provides no detail. The first amendment, being hit with avoidable costs. Risk sharing usually as the noble Lord pointed out, requires the scheme takes the form of a quota-share agreement whereby administrator to publish a plan to achieve a transition the insurer agrees to retain a share of all claims, to risk-reflective pricing. commonly 25%. There is no reason why Flood Re My second amendment would require Flood Re to cannot operate in this way, given that it is standard publish the intended framework for reviews, outlining practice in the market. the decisions that needed to be made at each review If we had such an insurance-sharing arrangement, point. Why is that important? The Government’s it would have a number of benefits. It would encourage consultation document on Flood Re specified that insurers to properly assess flood risk, otherwise they reviews will be held in order that there should be a might be tempted to take a simplistic or risk-averse gradual transition to risk-reflective pricing. Discussions approach and cede more properties to Flood Re than have centred on reviews every five years and the impact ought to be there, which would mean high-risk assessment for flood risk is based on that hypothesis, householders paying more for their insurance than but there is nothing in the legislation to confirm that they should. An element of risk retention will require this will be so. insurers to assess the risk left with them. Secondly, it Getting a commitment to a five-yearly review is would encourage high-risk customers to shop around critical. Flood Re is designed by the Government to and get the best deal. In shopping around, they could expire in 20 to 25 years’ time, with review points where well find an insurer with a lower risk assessment for decisions can be taken to reduce the benefit of the their property who was willing to offer a policy below pool to claimants and the levy to all policyholders. If a 589 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 590 linear approach is taken, this might result in a 20% valuations are produced, will not allow such data as a drop in the levy, and the benefits, every five years. The disbursement for the reports that are sent to them. His potential problems are that the reviews could be more e-mail continues: frequent, or never. The Treasury could require the “When data is ordered direct from the EA, it can take three transition period to be shortened, thus not allowing weeks to be sent through depending on the region”, the necessary flood risk management investment to and he says that he has tested that. take place, or it could set the percentage drop in the The scale of resolution on the Environment Agency levy to be higher in the earlier period. The reason why website is 1:5,000, which does not enable a particularly it might do so would be that under OECD rules the accurate identification on a per property basis. The levy is considered to be a tax. Removing it early would Scottish Environment Protection Agency’s website fares reduce the percentage tax burden on the state. rather worse because the scale there is 1:25,000, so The issue, though, is not just when the reviews take individual property analysis by the home owner is place but what information they provide so that the clearly going to be difficult. These are the data that are Government and parliamentarians have the necessary supplied to insurers to make decisions. information to make informed decisions. As such, it would seem important to define the critical parameters Of course, what happens? It gets boiled down to a in the review in some detail at the outset, understanding postcode approach—the “postcode lottery” of which exactly what areas beyond affordability and accessibility we constantly hear many examples. He says: will be judged to see whether or not the scheme is “The problem with postcodes is that many home owners/businesses effective. I hope therefore that the Minister will put on may be paying more than they should”, record the Government’s intentions in this regard so and he gives an example of a postcode—in I do not that we can have reassurances that the scheme will know what part of the country, but it is obviously an achieve the outcomes that we all want. urban area—which is neatly bisected by a blue-ink line of flood risk. The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, I particularly welcome There is a particular issue here as to whether the Amendment 156C, moved so eloquently by the noble data that are produced by this public agency, for Lord, Lord Krebs, as it enables me to raise a series of public consumption and for the benefit of society as a allied issues. The first is that, Flood Re or no Flood whole, will be available at reasonable cost—let us not Re, we are all on notice that the cross-subsidy of flood say that it should be free—for the home owner and risk needs to be replaced by individual risk assessments. individual consumer. That is the question that I pose The reason for that is our better geographical knowledge in the context of this amendment. and the unsustainability of the continued mutualisation of risk in those circumstances. I have absolutely no 6.30 pm argument with that. Lord Whitty: My Lords, I broadly support most of One issue of concern is the data produced by the these amendments, but I have a few queries. I support Environment Agency. Obviously, those data are very the first two amendments, Amendments 156C and important for the industry and for consultants, but 156D, unequivocally. It should be part of the role of they are equally important for individuals because, if Flood Re to help raise awareness, both among we are moving to individual assessment, we must have policyholders and in the community at large, and it some means of identifying the individual impact on will need to do so in conjunction with the Environment a per property basis. I referred earlier today to my Agency, local authorities and so forth. However, clearly, discussions with Philip Wilbourn, a very eminent the insurers also have a responsibility, as is reflected in environmental surveyor and valuer from the north of these amendments. This will help both the beneficiaries England. He allowed me to circulate an e-mail to a and the insurers to move to a more systematic, cost- number of noble Lords setting out his views, which I reflective basis for the whole system over time. It is have done, but there is a particular bit that I would like also true that the administrator should be required to to repeat. He refers to, produce a plan for the operation of that scheme, as “the data published by the various agencies, including the Environment provided for in Amendment 156D. There must also be Agency”. an overall longer-term plan for transition over the Bear in mind that this is someone who carries out 25 years of the plan, as is proposed by the noble Lord, evaluations and does assessments on individual properties Lord Krebs, and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. or groups of properties for a variety of different I am less sure that we should stipulate a five-year purposes. review period in legislation. In a sense, the scheme is In his e-mail, Philip Wilbourn says that he cannot always under review and will be changed in the light of use the data for commercial purposes because he is new advice or new experience of flood conditions. prohibited from doing so. Then he says that there is no Tying this down to every five years may not be the most online ordering service to acquire data for reporting sensible thing to do. Part of that assessment would be purposes, and he is forced to acquire it from GroundSure to indicate what measures would be needed to reduce or Landmark, two of the authorised resellers, at what long-term costs, as provided for in Amendment 156F. he describes as high cost. He says: Insurers may encourage both individual and collective “The data reported by commercial companies often varies schemes of mitigation. As I have said before, this may depending upon the royalty return”, involve mitigation by the policyholders, as a condition which seems to be quite the wrong trigger for objective of that policy, or as a “cream-off” from compensation data. He tells me that the costs cannot be absorbed by received in order to renew the policy. The noble Lord residential valuers and that the banks, for which these referred to Flood Re’s assessment of the need to invest 591 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 592

[LORD WHITTY] the Delegated Powers Committee that regulations made in order to save in the longer term. I understand all of under this clause should be subject to the affirmative that. I am, however, a little worried by the term procedure. While I recognise that the shift from a “subsidising”, which is included in Amendment 156E. permissive power to a firm expectation could be claimed I am not sure who is subsidising whom in this context. to underscore Flood Re’s duties in this regard, I believe If the noble Lord means measures such as these, I that there is sufficient clarity in Flood Re’s role to think that is appropriate, but I would not use that manage the transition to risk-reflective pricing and term, as it might suggest a cross-subsidy over and for that to be achieved through the current drafting of above what is already provided for in the scheme. the Bill. Even after the noble Lord’s gallant attempt at Turning to Amendment 156E, from my noble friend explaining Amendment 156G, I do not follow it fully. Lady Parminter, I can confirm that it is, as she said, As I understand it, the objective is to keep the levy our firm intention that the policy will be reviewed cost down for those outside the scheme and the means every five years by the Government. This review will would be some sort of quota-sharing agreement. I assess the level at which the levy and the eligibility bow to the greater expertise of those involved in the thresholds are set to ensure that the policy objectives insurance industry to tell me whether that will work. of Flood Re continue to be delivered, including the Subject to those queries and my slight lack of transition to risk-reflective pricing. The plan will be a comprehension on the last amendment, the noble public document and Parliament will be able to use Lord, Lord Krebs, and the noble Baroness are in the existing powers to call Flood Re’s staff to answer any right territory with these amendments. questions. On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in the case that Flood Re’s finances are out of Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I concur with the kilter or the scheme is not operating effectively, that noble Lord, Lord Krebs, in Amendment 156C that it review will be brought forward. We are working with is important that householders whose policies are the ABI to define this process. The amount of the levy ceded to Flood Re are aware both of the flood risk in and the thresholds will be set out in secondary legislation. their vicinity and of the transitional nature of the We intend those instruments to have a review period, scheme. Knowing about flood risk is vital so that always accepting that they might be reviewed early if households can take simple steps, such as signing up circumstances require it. In addition, as I have just to free flood warnings, as well as investigating longer-term said, we are taking a power to make Flood Re’s options for managing their flood risk, and can understand responsible officer directly accountable to Parliament the likely impact on their future premiums of the for the scheme’s value for money and for propriety withdrawal of the subsidy from which they are benefiting. and regularity. There are powers to require Flood Re’s We will work with insurers and Flood Re to support audited accounts to be laid before Parliament and people at flood risk to plan for and adjust to risk-based provided to the Comptroller and Auditor-General to pricing. I hope that noble Lords will be reassured to examine and compare against Flood Re’s published know that we have agreed with the ABI that insurers transition plan. will be required to provide information to customers I now turn to Amendment 156F, which would about their flood risk, Flood Re and the actions that require the Flood Re scheme administrator to set out they can take to manage this, both when a property is how it intends to manage the transition to risk-reflective ceded to Flood Re and at the point of a claim. Of pricing by investing in flood risk mitigation measures. course, raising awareness of flood risk remains primarily Actions taken by households, communities, businesses a matter for risk management authorities, such as the and Government to reduce flood risk are the best and Environment Agency, so it will be important to ensure most cost-effective way to secure affordable insurance that any action by insurers on behalf of Flood Re for households at risk of flooding in the long term, complements their work. and I recognise the noble Lord’s intention to see this Turning to Amendment 156D, I understand that by reflected in the Bill. As I said earlier, Flood Re will changing the phrasing of the power in Clause 54(3) have a duty to have regard to the need both to act in from “may” to “shall”, the notion that Flood Re is a the public interest and to ensure economy, efficiency transitional measure is strengthened. I point to the and effectiveness in the discharge of its functions. It Government’s stated policy objective in the June 2013 may well be that the Flood Re administrator decides public consultation that, in due course that investments of the sort that the “there should be a gradual transition towards more risk-reflective noble Lord would like to see present an appropriate prices”, means of complying with these requirements where and to the existing provisions in subsection (2) of the there is a clear case for doing so. Nothing in the Bill clause, which may require the administrator to have precludes this. However, we think that it is important regard to the transitional nature of the scheme in for Flood Re to retain flexibility in the way that it discharging its functions. We have been clear that discharges its public-interest duty and plans for transition, there should be a gradual transition to more risk-reflective in order to ensure that it is in a position to balance prices and that we are committed to ensuring that the these requirements against its core obligations as a scheme retains incentives for flood risk to be managed. reinsurer. Accordingly, we do not think that it would The Government will not designate the scheme until be appropriate to mandate Flood Re to subsidise we are satisfied with the industry’s proposals. As I flood risk mitigation measures. have already said today, the regulations designating Finally, Amendment 156G would limit the maximum the scheme will be subject to public consultation and proportion of the cost of a claim that an insurer could we are currently considering the recommendation of reclaim from the Flood Re scheme to a specific amount, 593 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 594 as part of the Flood Re scheme’s management of Flood Re will still hold some level of residual capital transition to risk-reflective pricing. I understand that reserves. Clause 70 allows for an order to be made the intention is that this would restore an element of requiring a specific amount of those reserves to be risk-reflective pricing to insurance policies in Flood transferred to the Secretary of State upon closure of Re. This could create a financial incentive for households the scheme. and insurers to put in place the necessary measures to These amendments require that, in preparation for manage their flood risk. However, price is one, but not closure of the scheme, the Secretary of State must the only, signal to households for achieving that and consult the Flood Re scheme administrator in relation our proposals for ensuring that households have the to the transfer of any reserves, as defined for these necessary information to make informed choices about purposes. This consultation must be carried out before managing their risk should also act to drive resilient an order requiring the transfer of reserves can be behaviours. While superficially attractive, sharing an made. As drafted, this consultation duty will apply element of the risk between Flood Re and households only at the end of the life of the Flood Re scheme and would also have the effect of creating a more complex will not extend to any other circumstances. Because of system to administer, thereby adding to the overall this, I ought to mention that I may need to come costs of the scheme. Having listened to what I have forward with a further amendment in relation to reserves said, I hope that the noble Lord will be prepared to on Report. withdraw his amendment. The other area of interest relates to Clause 72 on internal drainage boards. This clause amends Schedule 3 Lord Krebs: My Lords, I thank the Minister for to the Land Drainage Act 1991 to simplify the process those comments in response. Above all, my amendments by which internal drainage boards in England may are about trying to put risk communication and seek to make organisational or structural changes. At management at the heart of Flood Re; we have heard the Welsh Government’s request, Amendments 164 that in relation to previous amendments earlier this and 165 extend Clause 72 to internal drainage boards afternoon. I am pleased to hear from the Minister that and internal drainage districts in Wales. This will align this is indeed the Government’s intention. I look forward the process throughout England and Wales. I beg to with great interest to seeing how that develops through move. to the next stage of the Bill. I also thank other noble Lords who have taken part Amendment 157 agreed. in discussion of these amendments. On the frank feedback of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on my lecturing skills, Clause 54, as amended, agreed. in Oxford we normally do that anonymously. This was non-anonymous feedback on my lecturing skills in Clauses 55 to 57 agreed. explaining risk sharing; I will take that away and consider it for the future. In the mean time, however, 6.45 pm I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 156C withdrawn. Clause 58: Target number

Amendments 156D to 156G not moved. Amendment 158 not moved. Clause 58 agreed. Amendment 157 Moved by Lord De Mauley Clause 59 agreed. 157: Clause 54, page 109, line 30, after “persons” insert “, or descriptions of persons,” Amendment 159 Moved by Lord Grantchester Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I take this opportunity to draw noble Lords’attention to government amendments 159: After Clause 59, insert the following new Clause— tabled to Clauses 54, 70, 72 and 80. These are generally “Flood Reinsurance Scheme: commencement minor and technical amendments but I draw your (1) The Secretary of State may by order (the “commencement Lordships’ attention to two areas which may be of order”) appoint a day on which section 51 is to come into force. particular interest. (2) An order under subsection (1)— Amendments 162 and 163 concern the winding up (a) shall be made by statutory instrument; and of the Flood Re scheme under Clause 70 and the (b) may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and distribution of any reserves. As part of the operation approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament. of the Flood Re scheme it is expected that Flood Re (3) The Secretary of State may only make an order under will build up capital reserves. These reserves would subsection (1) if a Flood Reinsurance Scheme national database contribute to the payment of the scheme liabilities has been established. including flood insurance claims for those households (4) Any Flood Reinsurance Scheme national database must— whose premiums have been ceded. It is expected that (a) be accessible by the public; these reserves will be reduced over the life of the (b) outline a property’s risk of flooding; and scheme and taken into account as part of the five-yearly (c) indicate if the property is covered by the Flood Reinsurance levy-setting discussions. At the end of the scheme, Scheme.” 595 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 596

Lord Grantchester: My Lords, the amendment concerns attention of householders. It is vital that clarity on information on the flood reinsurance scheme and would flood insurance on a database is accessible throughout clarify that regulations will be brought forward to set the period and is made a basic principle of the scheme. the date of the commencement, and that Parliament will I beg to move. have approved by affirmative procedure the requirements on insurers of the scheme. Most critically, the proposed Lord Oxburgh: Amendment 161A scarcely needs new clause would ensure that when these important any detailed discussion: we have spoken this afternoon Flood Re provisions come into effect, the database on a number of occasions of the importance of getting will have been established, as defined in Clause 61, information to people. Certainly, this was a plea that with the relevant information in the right form as came to us through many of the verbal representations specified in subsection (4) of the proposed new clause. that we had when we saw various interested groups in Subsection (4) of the proposed new clause says that the lead-up to the discussion of this Bill. I simply offer the database must be accessible to everyone, and must this proposal to use council tax demands as a simple allow them to check whether or not the property with and almost cost-free way of disseminating information which they are concerned is covered by the Flood Re very widely, reminding people on an annual basis of scheme, and what the risk of the property flooding is. their vulnerability to flood. It could d serve as a portal I know that all noble Lords in the Chamber today to the various schemes and proposals that we discussed share my heartfelt sympathies for those in Somerset this afternoon. and the Thames Valley who have been struggling to Baroness Northover: My Lords, I am grateful to the deal with these awful floods, and hope that this Flood noble Lords for their amendments. We are certainly Re scheme will make sure that people are able to get supportive of their intentions in tabling them. The affordable and accessible insurance in future. The provision of information to households at risk of importance of the amendment is that it would provide flooding is vital for managing the costs and impacts of information to someone buying a property as to whether flooding. We believe that it is essential that households their prospective purchase is at risk of flooding and, if benefiting from Flood Re should know about Flood so, if they will be able to get insurance under the Re and actions that they could take, for example, to scheme. It does not make sense that a family looking reduce flood risk, allowing them to plan for the future. for a house in Somerset, the Thames Valley or elsewhere This was a key issue in the public consultation on would be unaware of whether or not it was covered. It flood insurance; some of the issues in these amendments would add particular difficulties for them when it echo some of the issues raised in earlier groups, which came to budgeting for the years ahead. It would be my noble friend Lord De Mauley has addressed. essential information when it came to looking for a mortgage. Lenders will require insurance on property The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, rightly emphasised to be able to advance money for the purchase, and will transparency; we certainly agree with that. As my want to know whether or not the costs associated with noble friend Lord De Mauley has just pointed out, the the property are going to be high and whether insurance Government have agreed with the Association of British is affordable. Insurers the principle that insurers will be required to provide information to customers, both when a property The terrible events of recent weeks show how important is ceded to Flood Re and at the point of a claim, it is that the public should have confidence that the highlighting their flood risk. We are also keen to database is accessible, and that they will be able to ensure that Flood Re plays its part in managing the access that part of the database to which insurance transition to risk-reflective pricing, which we discussed companies also have access. While the objective of the earlier. We are continuing to develop with the ABI amendment is to emphasise transparency of and proposals in this area. We strongly believe that it is accessibility to information, including mapping, it also equally important that households outside Flood Re highlights the necessity for clarity on flood risk. The are aware of their flood risk, and the Government are Minister may respond that subsection (4)(c) of the committed to making this information available to the proposed new clause is opaque and refers only to public. That is why we already have systems in place, property in the scheme. Yet the scheme must manage through the Environment Agency and its devolved the situation and a transition over the period of the equivalents, to provide this information. scheme. There must be a planned and collaborative In England, the Environment Agency already makes withdrawal of the Flood Re scheme, and not a precipitate comprehensive and searchable flood risk data available change into market conditions. on its website. This has enabled people to check their At present, it has been expressed that there is a lack flood risk from rivers and the sea and take action to of clarity concerning elements of property tenure and prepare for flooding. The agency provides the same the mapping of risk in relation to the scheme, following information for insurers to use. In addition, last December, changes made by the Environment Agency to information the Environment Agency published surface water maps and websites in relation to the proposal of the scheme. for all areas of England on its website and will produce The Minister has offered today to meet Members of a combined map, showing all sources of flooding, by the Committee concerning properties, and the scheme’s December 2015. This work further helps improve public treatment of them following repeated flooding occasions. understanding of their flood risk and I hope noble It is vital that the database is accessible as any updating Lords will be further reassured by that. While this occurs. places the onus on home owners to seek the information Amendment 161A, in the name of the noble Lord, themselves, it provides clear information to households, Lord Oxburgh, also seems to me a good idea: it would is well established and is actively promoted by the bring the flood risks of properties further to the agency. 597 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 598

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, raised the point Baroness Northover: Advice on obtaining flood about people buying properties. Clearly, anybody insurance is also readily available. The National Flood purchasing a property should check their flood risk Forum offers independent advice and guidance on by commissioning property surveys and searches or, how to go about getting insurance and how to reduce alternatively, information on surface water risk that premiums and excesses. Separately, the Government has been available in recent years on request from lead have published a guide that provides advice on how to local flood authorities. If they conduct those kinds of obtain affordable cover. We recommend that anyone searches and surveys, then this kind of information finding it difficult to obtain insurance should talk to a should emerge. Clearly, if, having discovered the flood broker and shop around—this was referred to by the risk, they discuss it with whomever they are buying noble Lord, Lord Krebs—as this is the best way to their property from, the issue of Flood Re would no make sure that they get the best price for their insurance. doubt enter their discussion. There are a range of organisations that can provide Since June, we have been working with the insurance help and advice, such as the British Insurance Brokers’ industry to go even further to improve the data available Association and the National Flood Forum. We hope on flood risk. We have now agreed that the Environment that this reassures noble Lords and that they therefore Agency, and its devolved counterparts, will be able will be content not to press their amendments. I am to access Flood Re’s data on where the highest-risk happy to write with further details about those people households are. This will help the Environment Agency who are seeking to purchase properties. to improve its own mapping of flood risk and will mean that our record levels of flood investment can be Lord Oxburgh: Before the Minister sits down, would targeted at those areas most at risk. she care to comment on Amendment 161A? To add to what I have said to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, I also point out that the seller is required Baroness Northover: As the noble Lord said, this to fill in a property information form—he will be creates a duty on bodies that issue demands for council aware of that—as part of the conveyancing process. tax, This form asks questions about the flood risk history “in an area designated as liable to flooding to include prominently of the property, and if the seller provided misleading on or with such demands the information that the relevant information there would be potential for the buyer to property lies within a flood risk area and information on where seek damages. relevant advice on flood insurance may be found”. I hope that even though I did not make explicit reference to the noble Lord’s amendment, I have laid Lord Campbell-Savours: Is it not true that under the out for him where the information is already provided, process to which the Minister refers, a purchaser would which is why we do not believe that his explicit reference not know until lawyers had been involved and were is required. If the noble Lord looks at what I have said beginning the exchange of documents? My noble friend’s and is not reassured by what I have laid out in terms of amendment would mean that the buyer would have addressing the substance of what he seeks, maybe we access to that information in advance. Is that not the can have further discussions after Committee. distinction or do I have that wrong? 7pm Baroness Northover: The noble Lord will know that Lord Oxburgh: I simply say that there is a big a buyer can access the Environment Agency’s maps difference between having information available—I and see for themselves. When buyers are seeking to readily concede that the Government are doing that buy in a particular area, they usually check out all with their proposals—and ensuring that people know sorts of aspects: for example, where the schools are about it and are reminded of its importance. and public transport is. It will increasingly become a concern of people seeking to buy a property, given what has happened in recent weeks, to have a look at Baroness Northover: As I said in my response, we what the potential flood risk might be. They have are putting the onus on home owners to seek the access to those maps before they even start down the information—and I have indicated where that can be road of any potential purchase. acquired—rather than to receive the information, as the noble Lord suggests. I appreciate that this may not be quite as strong as he would wish, but nevertheless Lord Campbell-Savours: Is it possible that some there are a number of different sources for this information property might be excluded? It might not necessarily and a number of ways in which property owners, when show whether a property was actually subject to they are ceded to Flood Re, will be informed as to Flood Re. their status. If they make a claim they will obviously be informed that that is the case. Therefore there are a number of ways in which they will receive information, Baroness Northover: Does the noble Lord mean a even if it is not quite as comprehensive as the noble band H property? I would have thought that it would Lord might wish. be fairly obvious if it were a band H property. I am happy to write with any further clarification if that would assist him. Lord Grantchester: My Lords, I recognise the noble Baroness’s comments in welcoming many of my remarks. She maintains that there is a system in place concerning Lord Campbell-Savours: Yes. flood risk data, and I do not for a minute doubt that 599 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 600

[LORD GRANTCHESTER] in 2009; or where contracts had been signed before she is correct about that. While I am reassured, nevertheless 2009 but the relevant property was not built until 2009 I am concerned that people should be able to undertake or later. This amendment tries to address those key their own research without the cost of expensive searches. questions. I very much look forward to hearing the My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours has further Minister’s reasoning on this in his reply. I beg to move. argued that case. I suggest that those expensive searches may well occur further along the process of a purchase. The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, we have discussed Nevertheless, people these days are very much concerned the substance of Amendment 160B already so I do not that they are able to undertake easily, quickly and propose to move it. However, while I am on my feet, I readily their own research. I will consider further what will comment on Amendment 160A and the terms in the noble Baroness said, but meanwhile I beg leave to which the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, moved it. I received withdraw the amendment. a different narrative on this. The circumstances of the post-2009 cut-off, as explained to me, were that that Amendment 159 withdrawn. was the time when Planning Policy Statement 25,in relation to construction on flood risk areas, came into Amendments 160 and 160ZA not moved. being. As the story went, therefore, everybody was on notice that that was an issue, so that was the cut-off Amendment 160A point. However, it occurs to me that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has raised rather an interesting issue. Moved by Lord Shipley It is fair to say that the end of summer 2008 was 160A: After Clause 59, insert the following new Clause— when the wheels came off the banking system and, “Flood reinsurance scheme: eligibility with it, the property development system. If anybody The FR Scheme should be eligible for all houses built and had a planning consent that he was hoping to implement occupied before its introduction.” in 2008, he would have found that there was no money or funding to implement it—nothing would be Lord Shipley: My Lords, I said earlier this afternoon forthcoming. Many of these schemes were put on ice. that I strongly supported the Flood Re scheme. Again, Indeed, there was a government recommendation—I I thank the Association of British Insurers, individual do not know if you can call it an instruction—to the insurance companies, Defra and Ministers, and local planning authorities that they should look favourably congratulate them on their achievement, which is a on extending the three-year life of these. As I am sure much needed reform that will give comfort to householders noble Lords are aware, detailed planning consent has at risk. a three-year life, so it would have run out and would have had to be reapplied for. Due to the circumstances However, I want to probe in this amendment the of having to reapply—maybe there are a new lot of issue of the cut-off date of January 2009 and, in regulations and so on—you can run into a whole raft particular, those houses bought before the cut-off at of cost, time and delay. the end of 2008 but not built or occupied until 2009 or after. This amendment uses the date later than 2009, The idea was that those things should be perpetuated, which is simply intended to probe the Government’s and with very good reason. They underpinned balance intentions. I support a cut-off date—there must be one sheets, loans and all sorts of things. If they were to be for the scheme to operate effectively—but the question effectively prejudiced by the loss of a planning consent, is whether it must be 1 January 2009 or whether it so that you had a property with either no verifiable could be later. development value or a lower development value, that had repercussions for precisely the sort of reasons I The reason why properties have been excluded from outlined earlier this afternoon in another context. So Flood Re from January 2009 is that they were excluded it is perfectly possible that a planning consent that was from the 2008 statement of principles. However, I read negotiated on the basis of rules in 2006 or 2007 would the Defra briefing, which says that, not have got going by the end of 2008 or 2009, and “2009 is the most appropriate date based on our current understanding would have had to be preserved. The houses would not of flood risk”. have been constructed until some time later, but the Does that imply that the understanding might change circumstances relating to that consent would have because of developments since the statement of principles related to the antecedent circumstances at the time of was established in 2008? This doubt is also important granting of planning consent. I can see that there is an because the proposals in the Bill do not take account issue here. of surface water flood risk where information was not I am always a bit frightened by development land publicly available until December 2012, or of changing values anywhere. I am even more frightened when weather patterns that alter our understanding of what things go wrong and people start reaching for their “high risk” is. lawyers. What are they going to start looking at? Will The essence of this amendment is: given that houses they say, “The house is now constructed, it was built granted planning permission before 2009 but built on what might be called an old technology basis afterwards would not covered by Flood Re, there is a pre-2008, and, lo and behold, it has flooded”? If they case for saying that post-2009 households should be are excluded, it may have a material effect on the value. allowed to enter Flood Re where flood risk has genuinely Who will they look to for recompense—the local changed since 2009 due to changing weather; where authority or the fact that Planning Policy Statement 25 developments are affected by surface water but the did not apply, or should have applied in some other risk was not taken into account as it was not understood form? This makes me think of the time-honoured 601 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 602

American superfund arrangements, where most of the are quite clear? Everyone is trying to pass the blame money went not to environmental clean-up but into on to someone else—“It’s not my fault, guv”. Who is the pockets of lawyers trying to attach liability. I do at fault? Is it the Government for not ensuring stricter not wish to see that sort of thing happening here. adherence to PPS25? Is it the Environment Agency? Some careful thought has to go into the date and That may be the case. Although 97% of applications where the cut-off should be. I know it is not easy. I am that it objects to are refused, it looks at only 6.6% of happy to believe that the account of the reasons and the 450,000 applications, which is quite clearly not circumstances given by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, enough. is the correct one, but I am slightly surprised that it Is it the fault of local government planners? That is seems to be a little at variance with the one that I have. probably the case. One has to ask why they continue to I would be very interested to hear what the Minister pass applications on flood risk areas contrary to PPS25. has to say about this. Is it the fault of the owner for buying a home built after 1 January 2009 on a flood risk area? It probably Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville: We is. Caveat emptor, or let the buyer beware: he should have had a good debate on this issue, so I will be brief. have known. If he did not, is it the fault of his I am concerned, like others, at the exclusions from conveyance lawyer when carrying out the searches? It Flood Re. My concerns are that many households may raises the question of whether lawyers should be required, have no idea that their property is in a high-risk area as a matter of course, to inform buyers if the house is or that they are excluded from Flood Re. Like the on a flood risk area and, in this case, when it was built. noble Earl, Lord Lytton, I am interested to hear from One can lay the blame on homes being built on the Minister how many properties were built before flood-prone areas on any or all of the above but, as 2008 but were not occupied until 2009 or after. The sure as eggs are eggs, it is not the fault of the insurance people living in these properties may well get a nasty industry. Why should insurers pick up the tab? They shock when they realise that they are not able to do have been quite clear on this. Indeed, they are the only anything about it. ones who have drawn a line by saying that, if a home is My concern with Amendment 160A is that all built in a flood risk zone after 1 January 2009, under classes of people, whether they are freeholders, leaseholders the statement of principles, flood cover will not be or the owner of a commonhold tenancy, should be available and the property will not be eligible for the treated equally. Other noble Lords have covered this Flood Re scheme. Underwriters were quite clear that area in detail. If properties are on the flood plain, they did not want to encourage unwise and irresponsible whether they are 200 or five years old and whether development. Why should underwriters or contributors they are owned or rented, they should be able to access to the scheme pay for other people’s stupidity? The affordable flood insurance. Anything less is invidious. Government must decide whether PPS25 is to be There will be households where a newly married couple adhered to or not. have taken on the leasehold of a property, raised their children, lived in it all their working life and now seek to retire there. When they first took up occupancy of Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, there is an element the dwelling, there would have been no hint of it ever of confusion both outside and inside this House as to flooding. However, with changes in the jetstream and where the words which define the exclusion of leaseholders continuous and persistent rainfall year on year, they are to be found. I understand that Defra put out a now find that they and their neighbours are suffering notice in which it excluded leaseholders, but can the from flooding. Are these residents now to be excluded Minister tell us where this provision is made? The from Flood Re? The Bill is not clear on who the public are confused. The assumption when anyone person with the “qualifying interest”is. Will the Minister reads this Bill that freeholders are included will be clarify this situation? interpreted by flat-owners who have purchased their freehold but manage their blocks through leasehold 7.15 pm companies—companies which have been established to manage the freehold, owned by the residents who Earl Cathcart: My Lords, I will speak to Amendment have 999-year leases—to mean that they are also included. 160A. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response They will assume that because they are freeholders to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, they are included. My understanding from my reading, but I shall speak to the amendment as it is written. although, as I say, I have not found the authoritative The Flood Re scheme should be eligible for all houses piece of literature, is that they are not included. In built and occupied before its introduction. other words, people out there who believe they are We live in a blame society. Even now, the media are included—freeholders of blocks of flats; not corporate trying to pin the blame for the current flooding on interests but individual share-of-freehold owners—will someone. Is the worst rainfall for 200 or 300 years the think that they are included when they are not. That fault of the Government, the Environment Agency or needs to be sorted out. local government? It must be somebody’s fault. I cannot understand why they are excluded. Indeed, With Amendment 160A, we are debating whether I would argue that they are probably less of a risk to houses built after 1 January 2009 should be included insurance companies, even though they may well live in the Flood Re scheme. As was said earlier, PPS25 in buildings on flood plains, because very often you has made it quite clear that development should not find blocks of flats where no one is living on the take place in flood risk areas, and yet we all know that bottom floor at all and the first flat in the block is on it still goes on. One has to ask why. Who is responsible the first floor, above the area at risk of being flooded. for the houses built on flood risk areas when the rules If I am correct in what I am saying, will the Minister 603 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 604

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] should be designed to be safe, appropriately resilient tell us why share-of-freehold owners in blocks of flats to flooding and not increase flood risk elsewhere, in are being excluded when, in fact, they are freeholders line with the national planning policies in place. This and when, as I say, people reading the Bill will presume date therefore reflects the fact that homes built since that they are included? 2009 should already be insurable at affordable prices. As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said, that marker has Lord Whitty: My Lords, I think my noble friend been in operation for several years, and it has been Lord Campbell-Savours is going back to a point that I maintained under the Flood Re proposals. raised earlier—namely, that the Flood Re parts of the The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about surface Bill may have been produced relatively late in the water mapping. The new mapping has shown that the Commons. However, the dividing line between what is total number of properties affected by surface water included in terms of property and what is not is not flooding is lower than previously thought. as clear as it should be. My noble friend has just Band H properties are not included in the scheme identified a group for whom this issue is particularly because, as I explained in some detail earlier today, confusing, but in any case the distinction is not in the Flood Re is designed to target support to those who text of the Bill. As I said earlier, there is slight confusion need it most. about the various bits of paper that Defra has produced on this matter, so we need clarity one way or the other The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised as to which groups are included and which are not. the issue of leasehold properties. As we have discussed, We have heard various bits of clarification from the commercial policies are out of scope of Flood Re, Minister today. I think that most of those should end which is designed to support households. We believe up in the Bill before we finalise it and I look to the that this approach is fair and practical, and it was Government to come forward with amendments on supported in the public consultation. However, the Report or at Third Reading to make sure that the leasehold sector presents a more complex situation, position is clear. where the contents policy is classified as domestic, but a buildings policy could be classified as either commercial I am afraid that I confused the amendment of the or domestic and could cover multiple dwellings. As I noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in this group with an said, I recognise the strength of feeling on this issue, amendment in an earlier group and commented on it particularly in light of the ongoing extreme weather earlier. However, whereas I have great sympathy with a conditions, and I feel we need to take time to consider lot of the other excluded groups, I have virtually none it in more detail, although, without evidence of market with those who built on and developed land in high-risk failure, it would be difficult to justify action. However, areas after 2009 because it was already clear from the we will examine the evidence further with the ABI and previous agreement between the Government and the I hope to provide an update on Report. ABI that new insurance would not be given for those developments. Like the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, I do not think we should give those people leeway Lord Campbell-Savours: Will the Minister comment retrospectively. If we shift the deadline now, somebody on the issue of share of freehold? will argue for a deadline at a later stage to allow yet more development in inappropriate places, and that Lord De Mauley: If I may, I will include that in that will skew the insurance figures and the whole calculation consideration. I hope that my explanations have provided behind Flood Re. Therefore, I do not support the some helpful reassurance. I am happy to ask my noble Lord on this occasion. officials to work with the ABI to set out the proposed scope of Flood Re in more detail before Report, as Lord De Mauley: My Lords, my noble friend’s that is something noble Lords have asked for. On that Amendment 160A seeks to make all houses built and basis, I ask my noble friend to withdraw the amendment. occupied before its introduction eligible for Flood Re. This amendment would move the cut-off date for Lord Shipley: My Lords, I thank the Minister for inclusion of properties in the scheme to the start of his helpful reply. A Written Statement would also be Flood Re, rather than from 2009, and would also helpful as we move towards Report. I should like to bring band H households in scope of the scheme. pursue two points briefly. I say to the noble Earl, Lord I apologise to noble Lords as I suspect that I may be Lytton, that there is more than one narrative but repeating what I said earlier today and, indeed, we the outcome is the same. The issue is whether the may repeat it yet again later. First, I reiterate why we understanding of flood risk that was apparently correct intend that properties built before 1 January 2009 and in 2008 and 2009 is still correct in 2014. I suspect that those in council tax band H and the equivalents would it is not, which is why I am concerned. It would be not be eligible for the scheme. However, before I do helpful if the Minister’s note that he will send before that, I shall respond to my noble friend Lord Shipley Report could inform us whether it is still correct. and a number of other noble Lords who asked what The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said that we should state the property must have been in at 1 January 2009 not include in the provision those who had continued in order to qualify. It must have been in possession of to build on high-risk flood plains after 2009. I entirely a council tax band, which would imply that it was agree with him, but that was not the point I was habitable at that date. I hope that is helpful. making. My point was slightly different—namely, that The 2009 cut-off date recognises that new housing I think the definition of what is high risk is now development should be located to avoid flood risk, or changing around us. Therefore, people who bought in where development in a flood risk area is necessary, it good faith properties which were not in a high-risk 605 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Chilcot Inquiry 606 area may now find that they are living in a high-risk area “will be able to disclose all but the most sensitive information—that as a consequence of climate change, changing weather is, all information except that which is essential to our national patterns and so on. security”. We have had an interesting debate. The issues have As a former Attorney-General, I fully understand been identified and we can consider them further prior those considerations. It is how they are interpreted that to Report. Therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the matters and whether the correct judgment is made in amendment. balancing. Mr Brown added: “I have accepted the Cabinet Secretary’s advice that the Franks Amendment 160B (to Amendment 160A) not moved. inquiry is the best precedent”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/6/09; col. 23.] Amendment 160A withdrawn. In the difficulties about publishing Chilcot, has there been any departure from that precedent? Clause 60 agreed. At that time, Mr Cameron made a number of challenges. He said that the Franks committee reported Clause 61: Register of premises subject to greater in just six months and suggested that, because of the flood risk longer period for Chilcot, people would conclude that the inquiry had been fixed to tide the Government Amendment 160C not moved. over until after the election. A year seemed too long Clause 61 agreed. for Mr Cameron in 2009. Unless progress is made, it will be more than four and a half years in the case of Clauses 62 and 63 agreed. Chilcot. On 7 November, the Daily Telegraph reported: Amendment 161 not moved. “The Cabinet Office is resisting requests to make public ‘more than 130 records of conversations’ between either Mr Brown or Clauses 64 to 68 agreed. Tony Blair … and Mr Bush … There is also a wrangle about making public ‘25 Notes from Mr Blair to President Bush’ and House resumed. Committee to begin again not before some ‘200 Cabinet-level discussions’”. 8.29 pm. First, who is responsible for the delay? Secondly, what precisely are the reasons for it? Chilcot Inquiry Public inquiries are set up to deal with public Question for Short Debate disquiet, to establish facts and to learn lessons. Not to publish is to undermine the whole object. Delay is 7.30 pm unjust and justice to the public is denied. In January, Asked by Lord Morris of Aberavon in a Written Answer, Francis Maude said that, “the completion of its report is a matter for the Inquiry To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the Committee”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/1/14; col. 1W.] reasons for the delay in the completion of the Later in the month, he said: Chilcot Inquiry. “The Iraq Inquiry has been provided with all of the documents it has requested”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/1/14; col. 32W.] Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab): My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to debate the reasons for the delay in Your Lordships may consider, from the very tight the completion of the Chilcot report. I will confine drafting of both answers, that they are less than frank. myself to some specific questions. Despite repeated In December, the noble Lord, Lord Hill, said that the requests over the years, I have never commented on Prime Minister had been updated by Sir John Chilcot, the legality of the Iraq war. My duties as Attorney-General who had, during the Kosovo war were difficult enough and “reported that continuing discussions over certain classified documents many law officers have decisions to make concerning had caused a delay to the Maxwellisation process, and hence international law which are not easy. My only comments publication of the report”.—[Official Report, 12/12/13; col. WA139.] were in my recently published memoirs in which I said: That was much more transparent. Maxwellisation is “The equivocation of the French before the Iraq war is not an the name for the way the common law has developed argument for the failure to try for a further sustained effort”, of providing a person who is criticised in a report with in the Security Council. I added: an opportunity to comment. It is nothing more than “Or was the die already cast? The Chilcot inquiry may tell us”. fairness. If you cannot resolve what should be in the My interest in public inquiries goes back a long contents of a report, both the inquiry and the criticised time. Cabinet Office records show that my name was are in an intolerable situation. Following freedom of suggested for the Franks inquiry into the Falklands information requests, the Information Commissioner War. In the event, more experienced colleagues were ruled in favour of disclosing the minutes of two Cabinet chosen. The Franks inquiry took six and a half months meetings in 2003 prior to and concerning military in all. The Chilcot inquiry was set up in June 2009. Its action in Iraq. The Cabinet Office—would you believe final public hearings were in February 2011 and we it?—had curiously argued that the public interest in were told that it would deliver its report as soon as favour of disclosure diminished with the passage of possible. In 2009, Mr Gordon Brown told Parliament: time. That is risible. It is the original long-grass argument. “No British document … will be beyond the scope of the The commissioner considered that there was a inquiry”, presumption running through the Freedom of and that the final report, Information Act that openness in itself is to be regarded 607 Chilcot Inquiry[LORDS] Chilcot Inquiry 608

[LORD MORRIS OF ABERAVON] and confidential exchanges between heads of state as something which is in the public interest. The could be published. By sticking to such a principle, the commissioner concluded that, in line with recent legal inquiry ensured further delay for a process that began authority, material which, in June 2009 and was expected by some at the time to “can provide a better understanding of how the decision to go to last but for a year. The Guardian of 29 December last war was made is subject to an exceptionally strong public interest claimed that a compromise agreement had been reached in disclosure”. between Sir John and the Cabinet Secretary that extracts The Library has failed to find any record of an appeal could be published in a redacted form. I pose this and I am particularly grateful for its help. question to the Minister: is that so? Was not such a On 31 July 2012, the commissioner said that he was deal in effect inevitable from the start? disappointed that a ministerial veto, as allowed by the Many doubts remain as to whether the length and Freedom of Information Act, had been used to override expense of the inquiry have been worth while. My his recent decision on the two Cabinet meetings to noble and learned friend referred to the Saville inquiry which I have referred. Why was the route of a ministerial into Bloody Sunday. However long and expensive that veto followed rather than an appeal to the court as in inquiry was, it had the merit of having a cathartic the recent case of Plowden—or were the Government, effect on divisions within Ulster. Perhaps the Chilcot in whatever manifestation, afraid of another adverse inquiry was necessary because of pressures at the time, finding? Perhaps I may remind the House of the but many key questions have already been answered. background statement of the policy of the Freedom of Certainly, every conceivable question was asked of Information Act. It states: Tony Blair, the Prime Minister at the time. For some “The Government considers that the veto should only be used the motive was a sort of personal vendetta against in exceptional circumstances and only following a collective decision Tony Blair—let us remember “Blair liar” and “Blair of the Cabinet”. war criminal”—but they are likely to be disappointed. Has that policy been changed by this Government? I personally had the privilege of an important Was the Cabinet consulted? If not, who took the vantage point. Between 1997 and 2005 I chaired the decision? Was it the Prime Minister or the Cabinet Foreign Affairs Committee of the other place. I gave Secretary? evidence to the Hutton inquiry and I visited key I surmise that each and every word of Prime Minister figures in the Washington establishment at least twice Brown’s statement announcing the Chilcot inquiry a year over the period between 1998 and 2005. I had had the blessing of the then Cabinet Secretary—if one-to-one meetings with the Prime Minister, Tony indeed he did not draft it. The crucial question is: how Blair, and Sir Richard Dearlove. As a result, I am much wider is the veto now being used than the actual wholly convinced that Tony Blair acted with total words used by Mr Brown, to which I have already integrity and relayed to Parliament and the public the referred, that restrictions in publication would be limited advice that both he and, indeed, I too had received. to that which was essential to national security? There may be criticisms that he did not ask sufficiently A blanket refusal to disclose Cabinet discussions, searching questions of the intelligence services about especially having regard to the commissioner’s carefully their sources. Certainly the US Administration relied considered and balanced ruling of the need to publish, excessively on exiles and partisan sources such as seems miles wider than Mr Brown’s promise to Parliament. Mr Chalabi and the Iraqi taxi driver, Mr Rafid al-Janabi. Will the noble Lord give a categorical answer to my There was much suspicion that the US Administration question: Has Mr Brown’s promise to Parliament been was seeking revenge on Iraq for 9/11. breached, either in form or in spirit? Parliament was The Prime Minister at the time may be criticised for deceived at the time of Suez. It would be most being insufficiently independent of the United States unsatisfactory if any similar allegation over Iraq were and having a rather starry-eyed view of President not cleared up in this independent inquiry, which Bush and the special relationship, but again, for example, Mr Brown promised, at Crawford in March 2002 he told the President that “will receive the full co-operation of the Government”.—[Official he would support military action not come what may, Report, Commons, 15/6/09; col. 23.] but provided, “that certain conditions were met”. 7.40 pm He did ensure that the United States took the UN Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab): My Lords, I am path until thwarted by Monsieur de Villepin and contrary pleased to follow my noble and learned friend and to to the neo-cons’ view in Washington. Equally, he adopt many of his questions. First, I shall reflect on avoided the isolation of the US, and in my judgment the precise question in the Motion and then consider both of those were the objectives. The inquiry is whether the inquiry is likely to be judged worth while. unlikely to find a smoking gun and it has said in terms Perhaps the first question can be answered briefly. that it will not apportion blame. It is largely contained in Sir John Chilcot’s letters to What about the breaches of international law to the Prime Minister of 15 July and 14 November last which my noble and learned friend alluded? Even if in year. Apparently, only in June last year did the inquiry retrospect we recognise that there was greater weight request that certain documents should be published to against intervention among those international lawyers give evidential backing to its conclusions. I make two who opposed the intervention, there were respected observations on that. First, why was the request made lawyers on both sides of the argument for pre-emption. so late in the day? Secondly, surely it was unrealistic of The inquiry would be well advised, in spite of its the inquiry to believe that Cabinet Office documents excellent legal adviser, not to seek to give a definitive 609 Chilcot Inquiry[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Chilcot Inquiry 610 view in this very uncertain field of international law. it will have as little ultimate impact as the Franks What about the role of the security services? Surely committee report on the Falklands, referred to by my that was adequately covered in the Butler report. noble and learned friend. At least that had a totally What about the role of the military? It has had its UK national perspective. Many expectations have been lessons learnt reviews. There were some concerns about raised, but it may well be that many expectations will the quality of military equipment, but surely the general, be dashed. correct view is that it was executed superbly by our Armed Forces. 7.50 pm The follow-up to the Iraq intervention is that there Lord Alderdice (LD): My Lords, I suppose that if has been much public revulsion against all intervention. one were to ask many members of the public for their There was the Chicago speech by Tony Blair in, I memory of the political story of Iraq, they would think, 1998. There were successful interventions in probably say, “Well, in the United Kingdom, the governing Sierra Leone and Kosovo, but following Iraq and Labour Party and the Official Opposition, the Afghanistan, as we have seen in Libya with no boots Conservative Party, supported the invasion, and the on the ground and as we have seen in the parliamentary Liberal Democrats insisted on a UN resolution, which view on intervention in Damascus, there is now a very they did not get and they opposed the war as a result”. strong public and parliamentary tide against intervention. On that kind of narrative, one might well expect that I What about the likely conclusion about governance? would be standing here wanting to find out the legal Was there too much armchair government? Was there background—what really happened in past—in order a presidential-style Government with the Cabinet to produce some kind of simplistic blame. It seems to sidelined? That may be so, but the memoirs of Robin me that that would be an extremely foolish thing to do. Cook, no great admirer of the former Prime Minister, First of all, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, suggest otherwise. What about the insights into said—and we must be grateful to him for securing this transatlantic relations? It was the clear strategic priority debate—it is a lot more complicated than that. Almost of the Prime Minister not to keep the United States exactly 11 years ago to the week, on 15 February 2003, isolated; that was very much a major factor for him. between 1 million and 2 million people came out to There was a great deal of evidence of that in the US protest. They were not all Liberal Democrats or anything inquiries. I had a certain personal experience of the like it. There were Conservatives like Ken Clarke. somewhat naive views of the neo-cons in Washington There were liberal people, including Robin Cook, when on several occasions I met Mr Richard Perle, Tony Benn and many others, who had their reservations. whom Denis Healey called the “Prince of Darkness”. Indeed, within the community as a whole, there was a He relayed to me his view that come the liberation, great debate about this question. It was not simple, while perhaps the bells would not ring in Iraq, there and I have no doubt that when Sir John Chilcot’s would certainly be great rejoicing and that the ripples report finally is published it will be a thoughtful, of democracy would flow out from Iraq over the complex and detailed report. I got to know him very whole of the Middle East. That was a view which was well when he was at the Northern Ireland Office and in part accepted by the President, and the neo-cons I always admired his acuity of perception and his were then very much in a dominant position in integrity of conduct, and the same could be said of his Washington. distinguished colleagues. What about the post-conflict planning? Is the inquiry From my point of view, the purpose of this inquiry likely to tell us anything useful about that? The truth is something quite different. It is to try to understand is, of course, that we in the UK played a very secondary how we got ourselves into such a difficulty in order role in the conflict and certainly a secondary one in that we can look to the future with better understanding the post-conflict planning. I saw that when I went to of how to deal with the problems. I will give one the green zone in Baghdad and was in the office being example. At the time of the first Gulf War, which was occupied by Sir Jeremy Greenstock. I saw the role of permitted by UN Security Council Resolution 678, Mr Paul Bremer and his large component on the other there was a great debate as to how far it might be side. There were two contrasting blueprints for the prosecuted. Noble Lords will well recall a lot of discussion post conflict. The State Department had Colin Powell as to whether it should actually be prosecuted right and Richard Armitage, who told me that there was through to Baghdad to get rid of Saddam or whether more combat experience on his floor in the State Resolution 678 did not permit it. I had a great argument Department than on the relevant floor of the Department with my old friend and colleague, now the noble Lord, of Defense. In that department were Mr Donald Rumsfeld Lord Ashdown, on exactly this issue. It was my view and Mr Paul Wolfowitz. They were at the top of the that, with this particular guy in these circumstances, department and said that the Iraqi army was dissolved. you needed to go the whole way to Baghdad and get As we know, the Chilcot inquiry was unable to interview rid of him. It seemed to me that to do anything other key people in the US Administration, so it has been was not just a poor reading of Machiavelli but a poor given only a partial view of the key players in the judgment of the psychology of the person one was post-intervention scene in the United States. dealing with and the politics of the region. Paddy said, In conclusion, I fear that this long-awaited and “No, no, no. That is not possible under UNSC Resolution long-expected inquiry, long delayed for good or bad 678. We cannot do that. We can just remove him from reasons, may well prove to be no more than an historic Kuwait”. Well, it is a bit ironic that so many years later document mainly of interest to students of government. it was UNSC Resolution 678 which was prayed in aid Possibly, after an initial flurry of interest in the press actually without a further activating resolution. If I and among the public, the waters will close over it and was so hawkish—as I would have been deemed then—in 611 Chilcot Inquiry[LORDS] Chilcot Inquiry 612

[LORD ALDERDICE] time by the Foreign Office and later released through the first Gulf War—why would I have spoken in your the press is quite interesting. I read the redaction and I Lordships’ House in 2003 saying, “This is not the time read what was originally published, and I could not to go ahead with it”? It is because situations change. I understand why on earth they had bothered to take will come back to that because I believe it is the out what they did, because it did not tell us anything importance of the urgency of the Chilcot report. that we did not know. I was not the least bit surprised The situation was that in the first Gulf War we had because my own experience with many security and a huge coalition, there had been a clear breach, it Civil Service documents is that when there is a great obviously required military intervention, and it would dust-up about what to release and what not to release, have been possible to prosecute it through to the end. more often than not, although not all the time, when In the intermediate years, the Clinton Administration you read what is redacted, the fact that it was kept and others had tried to find negotiated ways of moving out—and it was clear that it was kept out—actually things forward. Indeed, as I said in your Lordships’ produced more suspicion that there was something House on the occasion of that debate, there was a really serious there. When you read it afterwards, you suspicion that the weapons inspectors were being put say, “What on earth was all the fuss about?”. in place simply to try to produce a justification to However, perhaps it is not that. Perhaps it is that return to Resolution 678. It seemed to me that it was our friends in the United States are very nervous not going to end well. It was not going to resolve the about some of the conversations between the two problems of the region and stabilise Iraq. Prime Ministers, Mr Brown and Mr Blair, and the How does that relate to the situation now? Noble President. I am a friend of the United States and I Lords will recall that Parliament, in debates in the think we have an extremely important relationship, other place and here, made an extraordinary decision but good friends sometimes disagree honestly. Indeed, that set the Prime Minister and the Government back we are not good friends if all we ever have to say is that on their heels on the question of Syria. It was a we support the United States. I hear this all the time watershed decision, in my view, in that a Prime Minister with the Middle East peace process. What is the British and a Government had decided that they wanted to Government’s policy? It is to listen to what the American undertake a military intervention, and Parliament, policy is and agree with it. That is no help to our with the overwhelming backing of the people, said, friends. We need to engage in a proper public debate “No. That is not a direction in which we want to go”. about these issues and then be supportive. It seems to me that this puts up for serious exploration Therefore, I appeal to my noble friend the Minister our whole approach to military intervention as to to help us understand why there is such a delay and to when and how it should be undertaken. Should it appreciate on behalf of the Government that early always be with military force or are there other ways in publication is not a matter of the past but an urgent which we should intervene? Should we ever be doing it requirement for the present and the future. on our own? Should it always require a UN Security Council resolution? 7.59 pm These are very serious questions, but not for the past—of course they are interesting for the past, and, Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB): My Lords, the House as the noble and learned Lord said, perhaps for some is deeply indebted to my friend, the noble and learned students of history in the future. They are important Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, for initiating this questions for us in the present and over the next few debate. years, not to apportion blame but to see if mistakes Of course, it is a very great pity that, whenever the and misjudgments were made, and I think everybody Chilcot inquiry reports, it will be more than 11 years is clear that there were, and to try to prepare ourselves— since the military operations occurred in Iraq, but that but not to deal with the last war. One of the mistakes is not the issue before the House tonight. We are not often made by military commanders and politicians considering whether Prime Minister Blair involved is that they prepare themselves better to fight the last this kingdom in an illegal war or whether he is as pure war over again. Our job ought to be to become clearer as the driven snow as far as that matter is concerned. about the changing dynamics of the Middle East and We are not concerned in any way with the issue of of other regions in order to better make judgments weapons of mass destruction or what was genuinely or about how we, as a country, play our role in that not genuinely believed in that regard. We are concerned complicated region and elsewhere in a time when only with seeking to ask the question: why has the military strength is no longer any guarantee of military Chilcot inquiry been held up in the way that it has? success. That is why I believe that we need the report The truth is that the Chilcot inquiry has run into a with some urgency. The situation in the Middle East massive roadblock. As described by the noble and and in other places is developing very quickly. We are learned Lord, Lord Morris, this is the release—not to uncertain how to proceed and we need to understand the members of the Chilcot inquiry because they have whether and how mistakes were made so that we can seen them already but to the public if the opportunity find a different way of working. arises—of three groups of documents: 25 notes passed I have no doubt that one problem is civil servants between Prime Minister Blair and the President of the being wary about what things should be redacted and United States; 200 Cabinet or Cabinet-style discussions what things should not. I was reading just yesterday a relating to the relevant matters; and 130 conversations letter by Elizabeth Wilmshurst, the FCO’s deputy between either Prime Minister Blair or Prime Minister legal adviser who resigned; her resignation letter was Brown and the President of the United States. That is published some time later. The redaction made at the the issue. 613 Chilcot Inquiry[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Chilcot Inquiry 614

The relevance of those documents is not that they I am not saying for a moment that Sir Jeremy is have been seen by the Chilcot inquiry but that the other than a fair, honourable and thoroughly decent Chilcot inquiry wants to use them for a very specific man, but there is a principle of law which says that and very significant purpose: the so-called Maxwellisation justice must be done and must be manifestly seen to be principle, which was established in relation to the done. Unless the Government intervene here, as it is inquiry following the death of Sir Robert Maxwell. In their moral and legal responsibility to do, this matter other words, a body such as the Chilcot inquiry wants will fester and I think it will contaminate and poison to be able to say, “We have examined all the evidence. the whole body politic. The confidence that people We have come to the conclusion that there is a prima have in parliamentary democracy, already injured, will facie case against A, B, C and D—the finger of blame be further demeaned. appears to point to them as persons who ought to be criticised. But we are not going to do that without 8.07 pm giving them the opportunity of replying to that situation and calling evidence if they wish”. That seems an Lord Liddle (Lab): My Lords, I suppose I ought to unimpeachable principle of fairness. declare an interest in this debate in that I worked at No. 10 at the time of the Iraq war. Indeed, I sat However, the Chilcot inquiry goes one step beyond opposite some of the foreign affairs private secretaries that and says, “It is not enough that we should be able whose minutes are now to be found on the Chilcot to do that. We should be able to show to the public, inquiry website. I saw some of it pretty much at first if our conclusions remain the same, why we regard hand, although I was not directly involved with Iraq. those persons as blameworthy; in other words, that It was not a very easy period, I can tell your Lordships. they should be condemned not out of the generality I do not think it is right for our debate tonight to of our conclusions but out of the specific evidence get into the substance of the issues that the Chilcot that is contained in these particular pieces of documentary inquiry is addressing. It has been an extremely good evidence. Unless Maxwellisation is made public and debate and the speeches, as usual for the House of those documents are produced and published at the Lords, have been of exceptionally high quality, and I time the report is published, Chilcot will not be regarded thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of as having full validity”. I absolutely say amen to that. Aberavon, who obviously put an awful lot of thought Who is holding up this disclosure, which, in my into what he had to say in opening the debate. submission, is utterly essential to the fairness of this I will confine my remarks from these Benches to the inquiry? It is apparently the Cabinet Secretary, Sir Jeremy question of delay and the view the Government take Heywood. He is saying, “I am opposing this on grounds of that delay and of the questions relating to the of sound precedent, a precedent laid by my predecessor” disclosure that are at the heart of that delay. It is —the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell—“that is, the law important to be clear: as I understand it, it is not that of the Medes and Persians”. I would challenge that written evidence has been withheld from the inquiry; completely and make the following submissions. First, the inquiry has seen all the relevant papers. The issue it does not matter what the noble Lord, Lord O’Donnell, at stake is how much of that evidence it can actually or any other civil servant in the past 1,000 years has quote in its final report. So the question is: does the said. It can make no difference whatever. It is not a committee base its conclusions on the public taking it matter for a civil servant to decide. on trust that it has read the material and this is what it Secondly, it is a matter for the Government, as the concludes, or is it able to quote from the documents? sovereign and ultimate legal authority, to decide, and Everyone will agree that the Chilcot process has nobody else. The Prime Minister, making a statement been very thorough. If you look at that website, you on this matter last year, said that Government were will see that far more government papers are available responsible for disclosure. It does not matter what than for any precedent that I can recall. The comparison pressures there might be from the United States or the with Suez, where no one was told about the secret deal Civil Service. The Government are legally and morally that was done with the French and the Israelis, is very responsible. striking. Thirdly, a long, long time ago when I was a law However, there are questions about the extent of student—it almost seems like 1,000 years ago—the disclosure. I want to see the Iraq question and as many noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, and I were in of these issues as possible put to rest, but even then the same department at Aberystwyth and we were there are three areas in which questions of disclosure taught sound principles of equity. One of the principles raise awkward issues. These are questions not just for of equity was: no man shall be a judge in his own suit. civil servants, but for any responsible Government of In other words, there are certain people who should any party acting in the national interest. not adjudicate in this matter. Who would be the last I think one of these questions has already been person who should ever be allowed to adjudicate on sorted out: the question about dealing with the use of the question of whether or not these documents should intelligence, and the worries as to whether disclosure be made public? Clearly, that is either Prime Minister of anything to do with intelligence compromises sources. Blair or Prime Minister Brown. Who would be the I should like the Government to confirm what I think next? You might say someone who was the alter ego of to be the position: that in the case of Iraq those one of the two persons. Who was the alter ego of questions were sorted out in the Butler inquiry in Prime Minister Blair? It was Sir Jeremy Heywood—one 2004, and that there are no new intelligence issues of the main protagonists in this confused, complicated arising in the case of Chilcot. These issues relate to and altogether very strange story. national security. From our Benches, as my party 615 Chilcot Inquiry[LORDS] Chilcot Inquiry 616

[LORD LIDDLE] wondering what the impact of this will be on future leader said only yesterday, we support greater scrutiny relations between Ministers and between Ministers of the way in which intelligence operates. There are and civil servants. I would simply be grateful if the obvious limits as well. Minister was able to give us an answer. The second issue concerns relations with our allies. The committee wants to quote from private 8.17 pm correspondence between the Prime Minister and the President of the United States. If we see ourselves as Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, I thank America’s closest ally there is a real question, not just the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, for that extremely of the past but for the future, as to the obligation that constructive and helpful speech, which took a number places on us to protect confidences in that relationship. of themes which I, too, wish to cover. On that point I am sure a lot of people would say, Perhaps I, like others, should admit that I am not “Damn the Americans”. I do not take that view. If we entirely a neutral observer in this. I was my party’s are serious about our alliances—and the same would defence spokesman at the time, and I was involved in be true of our close partners in Europe in other the development of what was then Liberal Democrat situations—we do have obligations to our allies and opposition to the war. Part of my reason for being partners. How do the Government see that question? so was that I had been a relatively frequent visitor Time makes a great difference, but we are talking to Washington both before and after 9/11. I met there about something that happened a little over 10 years people whom I had known when I was a graduate ago. What view do the Government take of what is student in the United States in the early 1960s and a reasonable time to disclose things that affect our who had become some of the leading neo-conservatives closest allies? within the Administration. It was because of what I Thirdly, there is the issue about freedom of information knew of some of their underlying assumptions and of and what are called Cabinet-level discussions. Whatever my participation in two National Intelligence Council- decisions the Government make on disclosure as far as sponsored conferences in Washington, one in the autumn the Chilcot inquiry is concerned could have long-term of 2001 and one in the summer of 2002, that I concluded implications for freedom of information more generally. that the Bush Administration were determined to go This is a serious issue. My party introduced freedom to war with Iraq against the advice of some of their of information in 1998. We are proud of that achievement, own intelligence analysts who knew the Middle East but there were always boundaries that had to be set. I well. have always thought of freedom of information, in Having said that, I should say that this is a very simplistic terms, as meaning that expert advice should different inquiry from the Franks inquiry. It starts be open but confidential discussion should remain with the examination of the Government’s Iraq policy confidential. How do the Government see this question papers in 2000, before 9/11, and concludes with the about disclosure of discussions right at the centre of withdrawal of British troops from Iraq 10 years later. government on the basis of papers provided? Much It therefore covers a much longer period than the of the content is now available on the website, but how short period of the Franks report and deals with a do the Government see this question of disclosure of coalition war in which we were only a secondary Cabinet-level decisions? This will have an impact on contender. Franks was concluded in six months, but all future Governments. This is not just about dealing evidence was taken in private; the report covered only with the Iraq issue. This is about whether disclosure is the period before the conflict; it did not publish many going to affect the relationship between Ministers of the documents. I again declare an interest: I was and civil servants for decades ahead. We have to get one of those who reviewed it very critically on publication that right. because it seemed to me that it had distorted the actual situation. The intelligence community had indeed Lord Elystan-Morgan: Two points arise. First, if it got it right. The only mistake that it had made was in be the case that information of a confidential nature thinking that the Argentinians would not be unwise between states is always to be kept in the background, enough to try to invade the Falklands before the that is an end to any question of transparency. Does winter; it thought that it would do it six months later. the noble Lord accept first of all that many of the I also look back at the Dardanelles inquiry, and thousands of documents that have been disclosed to reference has been made to the situation after Suez. Chilcot on the basis that they are declassified and What we now have with the Chilcot inquiry is a very therefore open to publication come into that particular much more thorough examination in which we are area that he mentions? talking about several thousand documents—I must The other matter is that it appears—if the responsible correct the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan: they press is to be believed—that Mr Brown, in so far as his have not been declassified by being released to the position as Prime Minister or as Chancellor is concerned Chilcot inquiry. This is an inquiry by privy counsellors; during the period from 2001 to 2009 that is covered they have access to everything that they wish to see, by the inquiry, says that he has no objection to the including intelligence documents et cetera. The question disclosure of any of the three groups of documents at stake is not access; it is publication. that have been referred to. I am informed that, when we see the eventual publication, a great deal will be published that it has Lord Liddle: I am arguing here that these are very not been the custom of British Governments to publish difficult decisions and that we have to have a clear before. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said, view for the future. I am not looking to the past; I am when you get into the question of how far you publish 617 Chilcot Inquiry[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Chilcot Inquiry 618

Cabinet minutes that appeared less than 20 or 30 years we will proceed at the normal stately but sure pace of ago, clearly, whatever happens, you will be seen to have government publications to a publication of the final been setting a number of precedents. Another question report. is how far you publish documents which relate to I also raise the role of the Cabinet Secretary because conversations with some of our closest allies, whether I know that he has been criticised quite substantially or not you have their permission. There are here some in the press. The Cabinet Secretary is entitled to see very large issues of national policy and national interest all the papers of previous Governments. In the final which we all have to consider. resort, as we all know, the Cabinet Secretary only advises and the Prime Minister can always override, Lord Elystan-Morgan: I quote here from the Prime but I am old-fashioned about civil servants. Senior Minister’s letter of 5 November in reply to the letter of civil servants are servants of the Crown as well as of the day before from Sir John Chilcot. He states: the Government, and they advise in their perception “I am aware of the scale of the task declassification has of the long-term national interest. That is what the presented to a number of Government departments, and it is Cabinet Secretary is doing and I regret that there has good to have the acknowledgement of the work that has been been some rather partisan criticism in the press about done by the Cabinet Office and other departments to deal with his role, criticism which I think is unjustified. the disclosure requests, involving several thousand documents, including many hundreds since the summer”. The question was also raised as to whether the That seems to me to say—I may be wrong and I Butler report covered intelligence, so that we do not apologise if I am—that thousands of documents have need to take it again. The Butler report covered intelligence been declassified, but I will be corrected. leading up to the war. This inquiry, which takes us several years past the war, may well need to address one or two other questions. I should perhaps also Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I would distinguish mention the Gibson inquiry, which, as noble Lords between access and publication. The delay is very will know, provided an interim report last December much about working through thousands of documents, on some of the issues of rendition and alleged ill many of them very lengthy, and deciding how much can treatment of British nationals and others. A picture of safely be declassified for publication—how much therefore various different dimensions will come into that. can be published, how much some documents should be redacted in part and whether there are documents This does, therefore, take a good deal of time to which it would be safer not to publish at all. That has complete. It has not been helped, sadly, by the illness taken a good deal longer than was hoped, but it is now of one of the five members of the Chilcot inquiry, but well under way and is what we are currently considering. the other four are well under way and I stress again that Gordon Brown’s promise at the beginning that: Lord Anderson of Swansea: Is it true that the request “No British document and no British witness will be beyond the scope of the inquiry”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/6/09; by the inquiry was only made last June? col. 23.]— has been carried out for the inquiry. The question that Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Sorry, which request? therefore remains, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, rightly points out, is how much of this it is wise to Lord Anderson of Swansea: The request to publish publish. That is what has caused the delay and it is the documents set out in the letters. what we are currently working through. So there are questions about how fast we can work Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I am not informed on that towards this conclusion and there are, as the noble matter. I know that, last July, they hoped to be able to Lord, Lord Alderdice, said, questions for the future. I start the process of Maxwellisation within a few months. disagree with those who have suggested that the report, That has been delayed because what happens in a when it comes out, will be simply a historical document Maxwellisation process—here again I have to correct gathering dust. I think that it will raise precisely the the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan—is that those sorts of questions which the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, who are mentioned in the report will be allowed to see has suggested. What should be the conditions for those elements of the report in full which carry their future intervention? How much information should be evidence and will be published. So they will not see shared with Parliament and with opposition parties in more; they will see what will be published. order to carry Parliament and the public with the This is not, incidentally, a court of law. In no sense Government? How should we handle the coalition is this a legal inquiry. It is not a matter, if I may quote aspects of interventions, given that it is highly unlikely the noble Lord, of people against whom there is a that Britain will be involved in any serious military case; it is a matter of those who may see themselves as operations abroad in the future which are not in being criticised in the report being given time ahead of coalitions with others? There, I think, is where the publication to prepare their response to the criticisms. debates will focus. So, if I may say so to the noble Lord, Lord Elystan- The Government are well aware of the sensitivity of Morgan, this is not a roadblock. It is, however, an these issues. I return to the questions raised by the obstacle course, and that takes a good deal of time noble Lord, Lord Liddle. What is a reasonable time and discussion among different government departments, before we disclose conversations with our closest allies which I regret has taken longer than we hoped. I very and what precedents do we set if we start to publish much hope that it will be concluded soon. The Cabinet minutes of the previous Government, when Maxwellisation letters will then be able to go out and others give their advice in Cabinet and elsewhere on 619 Chilcot Inquiry[LORDS] Water Bill 620

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] (a) where the relevant premises are so occupied under a lease, the basis of full confidentiality? These are serious the person for the time being entitled to the term of that lease; questions with which the Government are currently and struggling. (b) where the relevant premises are so occupied under a licence, the licensee. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, (2) Every landlord shall ensure that they hold suitable buildings for raising this question. I assure the House that a insurance against damage from flood for the relevant premises. large number of officials are working through those (3) A landlord shall notify a tenant if the relevant premises issues. The Chilcot inquiry and its four active members appear on the register maintained under section 61. are still at work, and we very much hope to publish the (4) A record of the insurance held under subsection (2), or a final report within the foreseeable future. I will be copy thereof, shall be made available upon request and upon pushing for that future to be as foreseeable as it can be. reasonable notice for the inspection of any person in lawful occupation of the relevant premises.”

Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, this is a probing Water Bill amendment on the rights of tenants and the problems Committee (3rd Day) (Continued) that can arise if there is no adequate buildings insurance in place. Reputable landlords will take out insurance as a matter of course. However, there is no compulsion 8.30 pm for landlords to do that, and tenants can be particularly vulnerable if their landlords do not take out buildings insurance. They may not be covered for the cost of Amendment 161ZA moving out or for temporary accommodation in the Moved by Lord Shipley case of flood. Of course, it is understood that tenants 161ZA: After Clause 68, insert the following new Clause— must provide their own contents insurance. The amendment does not relate to contents insurance. “Duties of landlords (1) In this section— The amendment would give tenants the right to know all the facts about an insurance policy on the “landlord” means— property that they are renting, including whether there (a) where the relevant premises are occupied under a lease, the is one at all. The solution to this problem is to make it person for the time being entitled to the reversion expectant on that lease or who, apart from any statutory tenancy, would be mandatory for landlords to take up buildings insurance entitled to possession of the premises; and that includes flood risk insurance; to require landlords (b) where the relevant premises are occupied under a licence, to tell a tenant if a property is on the register of the licensor, save that where the licensor is himself a tenant in premises subject to greater flood risk as defined in respect of those premises, it means the person referred to in Clause 61; and to show a copy of the insurance policy paragraph (a); to a tenant on request. “lease” means— I fully understand that landlords will not benefit (a) a lease for a term of less than 7 years; and from the FR scheme. However, landlords pay income (b) a tenancy for a periodic term; and tax, and I understand that they would be able to offset (c) any statutory tenancy arising out of a lease or tenancy the cost of insurance against income tax. I should be referred to in paragraph (a) or (b), grateful for the Minister’s confirmation of that and to and in determining whether a lease is one which falls within know whether, therefore, the Government could support paragraph (a) above— an amendment on Report that protects the rights of (a) any part of the term which falls before the grant shall be tenants, as proposed in this amendment. I beg to move. left out of account and the lease shall be treated as a lease for a term commencing with the grant; The Earl of Lytton (CB): My Lords, I had not (b) a lease which is determinable at the option of the lessor intended to make any comment on this, but perhaps I before the expiration of 7 years from the commencement of the term shall be treated as a lease for a term of less than 7 years; ought to. I have one or two problems with the amendment. (c) a lease (other than a lease to which paragraph (b) above First, it appears to refer to any type of property, so it applies) shall not be treated as a lease for a term of less than could be residential or non-residential. It appears to 7 years if it confers on the lessee an option for renewal for a term cover any type of tenure. The definition of “relevant which, together with the original term, amounts to 7 years or premises” includes, more; and “any part of premises occupied”, (d) a “lease” does not include a mortgage term; which presumably includes the garden. The requirement “relevant premises” means premises or any part of premises is for the landlord to hold insurance regardless of risk. occupied, whether exclusively or not, for residential purposes (such occupation being in consideration of money or money’s I declare an interest in that I am a landlord of a worth) under— residential property that is let. It is not itself at risk of (a) a lease; or flood, but a stream crosses part of the garden. That (b) a licence; does not put the property itself at risk, but if it was “statutory tenancy” means a statutory tenancy within the perceived by an insurer on the basis of the postcode meaning of section 6 of the Rent Act 1977 (dwelling-houses let lottery principle that it was somehow at risk and that with other land) and section 7 of the Rent (Agriculture) Act 1976 ratcheted up my insurance premium—which, of course, (discretion of court giving possession); I should be delighted to cover for all normal risks—I “tenant” means a person who occupies relevant premises see that there might be a needless requirement to cover being— for a risk that was not there. 621 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 622

I do not know how that provision sits, because the a commercial decision to protect an investment made terminology for “landlord” is wide and the amendment in property. We are concerned that making insurance would probably include other properties without any compulsory across the board could create a regulatory streams in the garden that I might happen to let on a burden, which could deter investment in the private holiday letting, or something like that. I can see that rented sector. I strongly encourage tenants always to tenants need to be protected in some way, but let us check with a prospective landlord that appropriate look at what the protection might mean in practice. cover is provided for the property. There is a flooding event; there is insurance cover. Let If I might pause specifically on the issue of support us say the interior—the inhabitable bit—of the premises for tenants in the event of a flood, we appreciate the is rendered incapable of occupation, not only because concerns raised recently by the National Flood Forum of the effect of the flood-water, but also because of and others that tenants of properties not covered by the filth and everything else, causing damage to fittings, insurance might be left homeless following a flood. I de-lamination of kitchen units and all the other horrors. note that some insurance policies have an “alternative It will need a thorough clean-out, with bits replacing, accommodation” provision, but I would also like to probably a renewed kitchen, and certainly redecoration assure noble Lords that, even if this is not the case, and drying out. That takes time. The tenant is inevitably tenants do have protection. All local authorities are going to have to move out. He is going to move to required to provide accommodation for households somewhere else. The consequential losses presumably who are eligible for assistance, homeless through no do not cover the loss of the tenants; they only cover fault of their own, and have a priority need for the damage to the property. If it needs shoring up then accommodation—into which category flood victims that is a consequential loss. would clearly fall. So with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, Lord As part of its role in promoting flood awareness, Shipley, I am not sure that this amendment achieves the Environment Agency strongly encourages landlords what it sets out to do. Maybe I have got hold of the to make a flood plan and to make their tenants aware wrong end of the stick, but the landlord’s insurance of what to do in a flood. I also remind noble Lords does not enure for the benefit of the tenant. If you that all residential contents policies will be eligible for look at a commercial lease, for instance, it normally cover through Flood Re, including tenants of rental has a cessor of rent clause which causes the rent to properties, so long as they are not in properties built stop being payable at a point where damage occurs after 2009 or in band H or their equivalents. I ask that beyond a certain level, so the property is no longer fit the amendment be withdrawn. for occupation. But if it is not reinstated within a certain period of time, the tenant has the option to Lord Shipley: My Lords, I am grateful for the two move out and determine the lease. The tenant, in the contributions. I am reassured in part by the Minister’s mean time, whether it is a business that needs to reply. This is about tenants who have an entitlement to continue its business occupation, or a tenant in residence know whether or not they are in a high-risk area; who actually needs a roof over his head, is going to indeed, we have already had discussions today about have to move, so I am unclear about the mechanics of how people find that out. Tenants in private residential how this would really work in practice, because I do properties are often on low incomes, and it is reasonable not see that it protects the tenant. that they should be told formally if they are renting a property in a high-risk area. That seems to be a basic The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department entitlement if someone signs a lease. It is right that for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) they should know and be given a copy of the buildings (Con): My Lords, Amendment 161ZA from my noble insurance with flood cover that the landlord has, so friend Lord Shipley seeks to make it obligatory for that if the landlord does not have that then the tenant landlords to hold buildings insurance, including cover is aware of that fact. for flood risk. I can confirm to him, in answer to his The amendment is not about contents insurance; I question, that the cost of insurance premiums can fully understand the law in that respect. However, we usually be offset against profits for tax purposes. I am need to be very careful if there is going to be a rising sympathetic to the intention behind this amendment incidence of flooding that means that some private although I am not sure that this Bill is the right vehicle tenants find themselves flooded but do not have contents for this debate. insurance because they did not think they were in a I note that while this amendment refers specifically high-risk area or were not aware of it, or thought that to flood cover, buildings insurance includes protection the landlord would cover it even though the landlord against a range of perils including, for example, fire would not be responsible for their contents insurance. and theft. Although there is no legal requirement for With this amendment I am seeking better clarity, property owners to take out insurance for their properties given that there have been cases in recent months in the UK, owner-occupiers and landlords generally where flooding has occurred and tenants have in practice choose to do so in order to benefit from the financial had a cost to bear. Of course there are costs involved protection that insurance offers. In addition, and in moving out that fall on the tenant, not the landlord, importantly, most mortgage lenders specify buildings unless the tenant is prepared to sue the landlord. They cover as a mandatory requirement for providing a could do that but it is very complicated for a private mortgage on a property. tenant to do. The Government agree that it is very sensible for I note the Minister’s concern and will think further landlords to take out insurance, but are conscious that about this. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the decision is a matter of individual choice, based on the amendment. 623 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 624

Amendment 161ZA withdrawn. (ii) land to which one of paragraphs (a) to (c) does apply but for which the relevant rating lists no Amendment 161A not moved. longer exist or cannot be located, the Secretary of State may by order define an equivalent measure for valuing the land”.” Clause 69: Interpretation

Amendments 161B to 161D not moved. Lord Howard of Rising (Con): My Lords, before speaking to Amendment 165ZA, I declare interests as Clause 69 agreed. a member of the Kings Lynn Internal Drainage Board, a payer of land drainage rates and an owner of riparian Clause 70: Period of operation rights. This is a simple amendment so I will not detain your Lordships long. Where an internal drainage board Amendments 162 and 163 extends its area, it may raise special levies on billing Moved by Lord De Mauley authorities to cover expenditure in that area. This 162: Clause 70, page 120, line 26, leave out paragraph (b) and process is based on the valuation of land and is set out insert— in Section 37 of the Land Drainage Act 1991. For one “(b) the revocation of a scheme’s designation under section 51(1)(b) reason or another, the rating lists referred to in the without a new designation being made under that provision, at Land Drainage Act no longer exist in certain parts of any time before sections 51 to 56 are repealed,” the country. Where it is not possible to value as set out 163: Clause 70, page 120, line 37, at end insert— in the 1991 Act, this amendment seeks to provide for “(4A) Before making an order under subsection (3)(a)(i) or (b) the Secretary of State, by order, to introduce an equivalent which includes provision for the transfer of an amount of the method of assessing land. The amendment does not reserves of the FR Scheme, the Secretary of State must consult say how this should be achieved but would give the the FR Scheme administrator about the amount to be transferred. Secretary of State the power to do so where no other (4B) The Secretary of State may by regulations define “reserves” method exists. The amendment allows a gap to be for the purposes of subsection (4A).” plugged. In view of the simple and uncontentious nature of the amendment, I hope that the Government Amendments 162 and 163 agreed. will feel able to support it. I beg to move. Clause 70, as amended, agreed. 8.45 pm Clause 71 agreed. Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for raising the issue in Amendment 165ZA. We Clause 72: Internal drainage boards: procedure for value and support the work of internal drainage boards orders confirming reorganisation and I agree with my noble friend that we should act to remove unnecessary barriers where it is clear that these are preventing boards getting on with their important Amendments 164 and 165 work. It is for this reason that we have included Moved by Lord De Mauley provisions in the Bill to streamline the legal processes for internal drainage boards, making it easier and 164: Clause 72, page 121, line 28, leave out “made by the quicker for them to amalgamate or to make other Secretary of State” structural changes. 165: Clause 72, page 121, line 34, leave out “made by the Secretary of State” My department has a close and constructive working relationship with the Association of Drainage Authorities, Amendments 164 and 165 agreed. which represents internal drainage boards. Officials meet the ADA regularly to discuss a wide range of issues Clause 72, as amended, agreed. related to the work of IDBs, and the ADA has not highlighted this previously as one of significant concern Clause 73 agreed. to it. Until my noble friend’s recent communications with me, which resulted in the tabling of this amendment, we were not aware that this issue had been identified Amendment 165ZA as a potentially widespread problem. Moved by Lord Howard of Rising The concern that has been raised is that some 165ZA: After Clause 73, insert the following new Clause— internal drainage boards may no longer have access to “Internal drainage boards: apportionment of drainage expenses the rating lists referred to in Section 37(5) of the Land (1) The Land Drainage Act 1991 is amended as follows. Drainage Act 1991, and that this could present a (2) In section 37 (apportionment of drainage expenses), at end barrier to boards wishing to extend their boundaries. insert— However, I am concerned that the amendment of my “(f) in the case of—the Secretary of State may by order noble friend is a tad premature, given that we have not define an equivalent measure for valuing the land”.” yet received evidence on how widespread and significant (i) any land to which none of paragraphs (a) to (d) this problem may be. If there is evidence to show that applies and is it not possible to calculate a value it poses a significant practical problem, we must consider under paragraph (e)(ii) as the relevant rating lists whether it could be addressed through other means, no longer exist or cannot be located, or potentially without recourse to legislation. 625 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 626

I am particularly concerned that the amendment Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD): has the potential to give rise to significant unintended My Lords, the three amendments in this group deal consequences that might impact adversely on some with a specific area of the Bill, as we have heard: that internal drainage boards and local authority rate payers. surrounding the internal drainage boards. IDBs are For example, if rating lists to be used were revalued, very local partnerships, including landowners, farmers this could have the effect of increasing special levies and local councillors, which work with the Environment on some unitary and district authorities and in turn Agency and Natural England to draw up plans to keep increase council tax in those areas. The amendment ditches and rhynes clear so that water can flow freely, also appears to provide for the creation of a two-tier thus minimising the impact of flooding. IDBs are well system whereby some internal drainage boards would respected by local residents and these residents should continue to use existing rating lists for the valuation of be consulted on any impending changes to their local urban land while others would potentially use a different internal drainage board. measure where those rating lists are unavailable. This Farmers and landowners themselves are supposed could result in different levels of charge being levied to keep their ditches and streams clear for drainage, on local authorities in different parts of the country. It but this is not always done well. Those with river is important that a transparent and consistent approach frontage have the responsibilities of the riparian owner to calculating internal drainage board levies and rates inasmuch as they are responsible for the banks and is applied across the country. clear flow of the river on their side for the length that I hope that my noble friend is prepared to withdraw they own. In some cases, this duty is not exercised and his amendment. However, I will consider carefully any is sometimes ignored. A much stronger regime of further evidence brought forward by my noble friend these duties must be enforced by the IDBs and councils. or the Association of Drainage Authorities on this The IDBs are responsible for the rhynes. There is a issue. clear need for IDBs to be able to access money to keep all these channels open. Lord Howard of Rising: I thank the Minister for his While I understand the need to keep council tax comments. It is interesting that he wants to see the down to a reasonable level, if I were to ask the expansion of internal drainage boards, as my amendment residents of the Somerset Levels whether they would is there only to facilitate that. It is very nice that he has rather have paid a little more council tax which went been in touch with the association, but it is not all- directly to the IDBs, or whether they wanted to take knowing. Few people are. the risk of being underwater for six weeks, I am not I cannot see how there would be unintended sure what that answer would have been. However, I do consequences. We merely seek to give the Secretary of not think that it would have been not to have paid State the power to take action should it be so needed. more council tax. If he were to take the wrong action, there might be IDBs need to have the power to act and to act unintended consequences. quickly for the benefit of those in their communities. I If there are no waiting lists available, what are the am fully sympathetic to speeding up the process for Government going to do—absolutely nothing? Or will publication of requirements under the Land Drainage they agree that the Secretary of State can produce a Act 1991. However, any proposals for amalgamation method of valuation that is as close to other people as or reorganisation of IDBs must be consulted on with is possible? The whole point of the amendment is not those most affected. I agree that taking nine to 12 months to tell the Government how to do it; it is merely to give for such consultation is neither efficient nor wise and Her Majesty’s Government the power to do it so that I support reducing that time. I also understand that there is no blockage on what the Minister has said is provincial newspapers have limited circulation. However, their intention. it is often the case that the local newspaper might be the only newspaper that some households read. They The Lord Speaker (Baroness D’Souza): Does the read it because the articles and news have relevance for noble Lord wish to withdraw his amendment? them personally. These people will not be reading the London Gazette, however strange your Lordships may find this. Lord Howard of Rising: I may return to this later. I hoped that the Minister might comment, but perhaps Everything we see on our television screens, read he does not want to. I beg leave to withdraw the in our newspapers and hear on the radio indicates amendment. that these people who have been flooded feel disempowered and disillusioned. It would unwise to Amendment 165ZA withdrawn. do anything in the Bill that might increase that feeling. It is essential that local people are able to have a say in Clause 74 agreed. what happens to their IDBs and, to do that, they need to be able to access the consultation when it takes place. Reducing the time during which an advertisement Schedule 9: Publication requirements under the Land may be placed is reasonable, so long as it is advertised Drainage Act 1991 in locally accessible media, and placed in libraries, schools or other public meeting places as well as the Amendment 165ZB local provincial newspapers. There is a financial cost to this, of course, but that is small compared to the Moved by Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville value of local people feeling that they are being consulted. 165ZB: Schedule 9, page 218, line 6, leave out sub-paragraph (2) I beg to move. 627 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 628

Baroness Northover (LD): My Lords, I thank my Schedule 9 agreed. noble friend for her amendment. We agree with her that it is important for the necessary information to go Clause 75 agreed. to the relevant people and for the relevant groups to be consulted in the way that she says. I emphasise that we Amendment 165A are here retaining all the powers that are already in Moved by The Earl of Lytton place; this is just about not having to publish in local newspapers. I will just go through that: I think she has 165A: After Clause 75, insert the following new Clause— picked up on the key points anyway. “Liability in nuisance for a riparian owner The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision We consider that the requirement for the internal to limit the liability in nuisance for a riparian owner drainage boards and the Environment Agency to advertise when the Environment Agency or relevant authority a range of notices, procedures and orders in newspapers withdraws from maintenance of flood defences.” is inflexible, out of date—given the range of media now available—and often wasteful of public funds. We The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, I tabled this amendment are therefore introducing more flexibility to the advertising following discussions I had with the Country Land arrangements. This is in line with recent legislation, and Business Association, of which I am a long-standing such as the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 and member. It relates to what might be described as a the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, which legacy issue, to do with circumstances where infrastructure allows relevant authorities to publish documents without in relation to flood defence or amelioration, which being prescriptive in how they do so. currently might fall under the auspices of the Environment Internal drainage boards have complained that Agency, might at some juncture, through the operation advertising in local newspapers can be costly and that, of this Bill, and the redefinition of the Environment in some areas, it does not represent best value for Agency’s functions, cease to be maintained by a money in reaching out to the relevant communities. government agency. We also understand that some local newspapers may The question is: what happens with this infrastructure? not be widely distributed in rural communities, or in It has obviously been put in there for the reason of some cases may no longer be published. Our changes protecting life and property, some of which may be will allow for both a wider and a more targeted agricultural, and other residential or other property. distribution of notices. This could mean, for example, This amendment intends to probe what the Government’s distribution through the use of electronic means, parish intentions are in the circumstances in which such a notice boards or, in the way that she indicated, school situation might occur. The Minister may say that there notice boards and so on, while retaining a fair, open is no question of the Environment Agency or the state and inclusive process. abandoning those things to an uncertain fate. However, The Environment Agency and IDBs will still have a they might say, “It’s going to be down to local communities requirement to publish notices and bring these notices to deal with it”—and then what? How are these obligations to the attention of the people who will be affected by to be transferred? the changes; I hope that is the reassurance that the 9pm noble Baroness needs. We are, however, keen to take The point behind this is that these works, whether full advantage of the extensive local knowledge and they be ditches, dykes, sluices, banks or whatever, are experience of internal drainage boards and the very often constructed under some regulatory or other Environment Agency by enabling them to reach out to power by a local authority, possibly historically, and the communities affected by any changes in the most have been maintained at all times since then. However, cost-effective way. they sit physically on the land of a private owner. The Therefore, I can assure my noble friend that we are Country Land and Business Association is concerned not telling internal drainage boards and the Environment that if nothing happens to them and they fall into Agency not to use local newspapers. If they consider some sort of dereliction, under the laws of nuisance this to be a cost-effective way of getting their information there might be a liability on the owner, purely by virtue out, they may still do so, as well as making use of of being an owner, from some other third party who other media. We agree that local people should be invokes the benefit and the protection of those works. consulted in the way that my noble friend suggests. I That is the sum total of what this is about. The hope that I have reassured my noble friend and that mechanism used here, which of course it would not be she will be content to withdraw her amendment. appropriate to try to work out in detail in the Bill, is simply to facilitate a regulation-making power by the Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville: I thank Secretary of State in circumstances where it may be the Minister for her comments. I welcome the increased appropriate to do so. I beg to move. flexibility on advertising that she detailed and accept completely that, if the internal drainage boards are the Lord Grantchester (Lab): As my noble friend Lord bodies that decide how to advertise the alterations, Whitty said in relation to an earlier amendment, it is then I should be happy with that. It seems that a wider vital that there is clarity on aspects of the scheme, and targeted approach is going to come forward, so especially on defining the scheme concerning the inclusions I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. and exclusions of property and responsibilities or liabilities around flood risk. Amendment 165ZB withdrawn. There appears to be a lack of clarity as regards the situation concerning owners of river banks and whether Amendments 165ZC and 165ZD not moved. they are responsible upon the withdrawal of the 629 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Water Bill 630

Environment Agency from funding many aspects of committed to bringing together landowners and other flood prevention and the consequential third-party affected parties to make sure that they are clear on losses. The amendment seems to assume that the their respective roles and responsibilities and that responsibilities of the Environment Agency will be they understand the range of options that may be reduced, as well as the funding. While there may be available to them for future management of the assets recognition that owners should be responsible for and their likely costs, benefits and impacts. This may their own situations, it is nevertheless recognised that include options for continued maintenance of assets covering third-party losses could be severely onerous by local groups and options involving less or no to riparian owners. This amendment seeks to limit maintenance. The agency will then work with all the their liability. Nevertheless, a limit to their liability interested parties to help them reach agreement on begs the question of who would then take it on. how the parties involved will take forward maintenance Even at this late hour, perhaps I may tempt the of the asset in the future. It is possible, for example, for Minister. As regards limiting the liability of riparian the landowner on whose land a defence is situated to owners, could they claim that a flood was an act of enter into an agreement to secure contributions from God? Is the Minister able to pass judgment on such his neighbours towards the costs of maintenance and things? However, this serious situation needs clarity, as repairs. landowners, farmers and even boating sports clubs We understand the noble Earl’s concerns about could find themselves in severe difficulty alongside whether these agreements will be possible. However, it more affluent band H properties. is important to remember that third parties are also expected to play their part. If third parties refuse to Baroness Northover: My Lords, far be it from me to make reasonable contributions for the maintenance of judge upon acts of God or even the implications of a flood defence asset that is protecting their property, the Equality Act. they could diminish the success of any future claims against the landowner. I thank the noble Earl for his amendment, which I will address at a little length, as I think he would The noble Earl has suggested regulations should be probably like to hear my comments. He speaks of drawn up to set out what actions a landowner should instances where the Environment Agency might decide take in order to meet any claims of liability. This to withdraw from maintaining some flood management would not be the simple clarification that the noble assets and suggests that this could create a challenging Earl might have been expecting. Such regulations would situation for landowners, residents and others affected. need to cover many types of assets, the type of location, He will probably know that we are discussing those as well as a list of all possible activities that might be concerns with the Country Land and Business appropriate for their maintenance. The regulations Association, to which he referred, and that my honourable would need to address the range of impacts of flooding, friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State ranging from a garden becoming waterlogged to flooding met it on 23 January. of many buildings and possible loss of life. Most We share the noble Earl’s wish to reduce the possibility importantly, the regulations would need to address of litigation, which is an aspect that is implied by some such complications as a flood asset being owned by of the concerns expressed by the noble Earl. That is one or more landowners or a number of different why we are promoting the asset maintenance protocol beneficiaries of different means. Such regulations would published by the Environment Agency. We strongly be complex and, to be proportionate, would need to believe that developing partnerships and working have an element of subjectivity to what a landowner arrangements between local parties to guarantee future would be required to do to avoid liability. maintenance is the best way to prevent problems arising For that reason, we do not believe that such regulations that could lead to claims of liability. could give significantly more certainty than the current The Environment Agency and other authorities case law. We firmly believe that use of the Environment maintain many thousands of flood defence assets. The Agency’s protocol gives all the parties involved a chance situation to which the noble Earl refers is not one to ensure an outcome that reflects the particular situation which is affected by this Bill. He is picking up instances and circumstances of each individual case, while avoiding where the Environment Agency may decide that it is the need for litigation between landowners. For these no longer going to support certain flood defences and reasons I encourage the noble Earl to withdraw his the responsibility for that would fall to others. So I amendment. would separate this issue from the Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, sort of did. The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, at this hour of the The Environment Agency is looking to withdraw night it is not my intention to press the amendment; as maintenance of some of these assets where maintenance I said at the outset, it is a probing one. I am grateful to is no longer economically justifiable or where the work the Minister for her explanation. I am aware of the may not have a high enough priority for central ongoing discussions and I appreciate that this matter government funding over the longer term. Examples sort of sits outside the Bill. I suppose that if I have a of such assets are embankments in rural areas that hook to hang it on, it is the situation where somebody protect grazing land or small flow control structures might be protected by such works and finds they are such as gates or penstocks. no longer protected and unable to get full cover insurance. Understanding these concerns, the Environment They then go looking for the next deep pocket in order Agency has published, and recently updated, a protocol to press a claim, so the geometry of the circumstances explaining the processes it will follow. The agency is might change. 631 Water Bill[LORDS] Water Bill 632

[THE EARL OF LYTTON] Traveller site there has full planning permission and However, it is right that the matter should be discussed the caravan count in January of this year showed that by the industries concerned. I would hope that the there were 261 caravans on the Chesterton Fen Road protocol would at least give some protection in the site but, because very few of the premises there are sense that, if one had done something in accordance “buildings”, none of these is connected to a main with the protocol that was agreed between the parties, sewer and the owners have each had to make their own that would be a reasonable defence in law. However, I arrangements for sewage disposal such as small package do not think that I can ask the noble Baroness to go treatment plants, cesspits and septic tanks leading to into that sort of detail. I would like to reserve my soakaways. The development there is close to the position in case it is necessary for me to come back to River Cam and, because the development is dense and this at a later stage of the Bill but, in the mean time, low, there can be environmental problems. I am told I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. that lagoons close to the banks of the river can become less than sweet smelling at all times of the year. Amendment 165A withdrawn. Local councillors petitioned Anglian Water in September 2007 to investigate whether it had a duty to provide a mains sewerage connection but Anglian Amendment 165B Water turned the request down in 2009 and an appeal Moved by Baroness Humphreys was lost in June 2011. The judgment hinged on the 165B: After Clause 75, insert the following new Clause— number of properties in the area for which the water company had a duty to provide this service under the “Duty to provide sewers Act. In short, most of the Travellers’ caravans or day In section 101A of the Water Industry Act 1991, in subsection rooms did not count, so although there are more than (2)(a) for “on which there are buildings” substitute “with permanent use and generating domestic effluent”.” 250 caravan plots in the area, only 30 duty properties— houses and a few substantial mobile homes—were considered, and the economic argument was then that Baroness Humphreys (LD): My Lords, I am grateful it was cheaper for these 30 to provide cesspits for for the opportunity to move this amendment and, in themselves than to lay on a sewer. If all the caravans so doing, refer noble Lords to the interest I have had counted as buildings, there is no question but that already declared as a trustee of the Crafnant Trust. the water authority would have had to provide a sewer. The trust has responsibility for Lake Crafnant, a small After all, it is impossible to imagine permission being reservoir in north Wales. given for an estate of 250 houses without access to The amendment seeks to clarify the definition of sewerage being part of that permission. Therefore, the duty properties as they appear in Section 101A of the whole issue revolves around the use of the word Water Industry Act 1991 where an application is being “buildings”and the lack of guidance around its definition. made to connect premises to sewerage for the first Many applications and appeals have had to resort to time, and seeks to define “duty properties” as premises, the definition provided under building regulations guidance, which is why successive applications and “with permanent use and generating domestic effluent”. appeals have failed. The Water Industry Act 1991 brought in a duty on water companies to provide a sewerage connection 9.15 pm where the current arrangements were causing environmental problems, if that was the cheapest overall Conscientious local authorities seek to adhere to solution to the problem. Section 101A(1) of the Act and to carry out their obligations under the Government’s states that, 2012 planning policy guidelines but in this case are prevented from doing so by Section 101A(2)(a) “it shall be the duty of a sewerage undertaker to provide a public of the 1991 Act. Where caravans are occupied as sewer to be used for the drainage for domestic sewerage purposes of premises in a particular locality in its area”. permanent residences and have full planning permission, there is surely a case that residents should not be Section 101A(2)(a) further defines the use of the word discriminated against and their premises should be classed “premises” as, as premises in, “the premises in question, or any of those premises, are premises “permanent use and generating domestic effluent”. on which there are buildings”. This amendment provides the opportunity to address It is the use of the word “buildings” that has become that issue, which has two concerns; namely, the problematic for some local authorities and a strict environment in which people live and the rights of interpretation of the word has given rise to some people to be treated equally. I beg to move. environmental problems—problems that have caused conflict with the duties of local authorities under the Government’s own guidance, Planning Policy for Traveller Baroness Northover: My Lords, I am grateful to Sites, issued in 2012. Under this guidance, local planning my noble friend for raising an issue which is clearly authorities are advised that they must have, of no small importance to any community affected. Section 101A relates to a “Further duty to provide “due regard to the protection of local amenity and local environment”, sewers” to relieve environmental and amenity issues and that sites should be, caused by inadequate sewerage. This section applies to “sustainable economically, socially and environmentally”. “premises” and “buildings” and the amendment seeks Chesterton Fen in south Cambridgeshire is a case to change that to make the duty apply to structures in point, where conflict has been seen between the which may not currently be considered buildings for 1991 Act and the Government’s planning policy. The the purposes of this duty. 633 Water Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Co-operative Bill etc. 634

In the case of Traveller sites, such as the one she Amendments 167 and 168 agreed. referred to at Chesterton Fen near Cambridge, when considering an appeal in respect of a decision not to provide a sewer under Section 101A, the Environment Amendment 169 not moved. Agency will look at the case for each individual caravan on the basis of its size, permanence and degree of physical attachment to the land. To vary the definition Clause 80, as amended, agreed. in this section would potentially have far-ranging and unintended consequences. We feel that the best route Schedule 12 agreed. is to meet my noble friends to discuss their concerns further. On that basis, I hope that she will be prepared to withdraw her amendment. Clause 81 agreed.

Baroness Humphreys: I thank my noble friend for her reply. Given the degree of reassurance she has House resumed. given me, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 165B withdrawn. Bill reported with amendments.

Schedule 10 agreed.

Clauses 76 and 77 agreed. Children and Families Bill Returned from the Commons Schedule 11 agreed.

Clauses 78 and 79 agreed. The Bill was returned from the Commons with the Lords amendments agreed to.

Clause 80: Commencement

Amendment 166 not moved. Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Bill [HL] Amendments 167 and 168 Recommitted to Committee Moved by Lord De Mauley 167: Clause 80, page 124, line 5, leave out paragraph (b) and The Bill was reported from the Joint Committee on insert— Consolidation Bills with amendments and recommitted “(b) section 76; to a Committee of the Whole House. The amendments were ordered to be printed. “(ba) section 77 and Schedule 11; (bb) sections 78 and 79;” 168: Clause 80, page 124, line 6, at end insert “and Schedule 12” House adjourned at 9.20 pm.

GC 229 Defence Reform Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Defence Reform Bill GC 230

regular basis. Presumably we should be encouraging Grand Committee the unemployed to consider reservist occupations; so the question of how that fits in with the requirement Tuesday, 11 February 2014. to sign on for benefits is of some importance. The figures given in the Parliamentary Answer to Defence Reform Bill which I referred indicate the importance of small and Committee (3rd Day) medium-sized firms as a source of reservists. The additional payment proposed over and above the current 3.30 pm arrangements is, I believe, £500 a month for each Relevant documents: 17th and 21st Reports from month in which a reservist is mobilised. The question the Delegated Powers Committee. is: will that prove to be a sufficient incentive for smaller firms, bearing in mind that the impact on them The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness of one or more of their employees being reservists, Harris of Richmond) (LD): My Lords, if there is a and away from the workplace for periods of time, Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, this could be greater than for a large firm that has more Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells resources, both human and financial, at its disposal are rung and resume after 10 minutes. to cover for employees away on Reserve Forces Clauses 44 and 45 agreed. commitments? I appreciate that we want to draw the attention of Schedule 6 agreed. employers to the benefits to them of their employees being reservists and the positive impact that this can Clause 46: Payments to employers etc of members of have on career development, but that may not necessarily reserve forces be the first point that will strike a small employer when faced with the potential problem of covering for an employee away on reserve duties; there are many Amendment 17A small employers in the IT field, which is a skill that we Moved by Lord Rosser look to reservists to provide. A survey by the Federation of Small Businesses in 2012 suggested that this might 17A: Clause 46, page 30, line 33, at end insert— be an issue, but I hope the Minister will say whether “(5A) Regulations under this section may provide for variation that is proving to be the case in respect of small and in payment size on the basis of the recipient company, specifically including provision for larger payments to be provided to companies medium-sized firms. defined as “small” or “medium” under sections 382 and 465 of We believe that there is a case for flexibility over the the Companies Act 2006 or individuals who are self-employed.” size of the additional payment in relation to small and medium-sized businesses, but we want to hear what Lord Rosser (Lab): Clause 46 deals with the issue of the Government’s intentions are on the points I have additional payments to employers of members of the raised, including how specific or otherwise the regulations Reserve Forces. This amendment would enable regulations relating to these payments are likely to be. I beg to to provide for a variation in the size of the payment move. made by specifically including provision for larger payments to be provided to small and medium-sized Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD): My Lords, I am companies. not happy with this amendment. Having listened to An Answer to a Parliamentary Question in 2010 the explanation by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I shall revealed that at that time 15% of current TA members explain why. Small and medium-sized enterprises—I came from large organisations employing 500 people was the director of one for many years—are concerned or more, 17% came from medium-sized organisations not so much with the money but with replacing the employing between 50 and 499 people, and 17% person. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, touched upon came from small organisations with between one and that. I do not think that money is the problem. Giving 49 employees. Self-employed people made up 5%, with SMEs a bit more money does not solve the problem unemployed people, including students, making up 42%, that a key person in a very small organisation is not and the mobilised TA making up the remaining 4%. there. The argument for larger payments to smaller When the Minister responds, perhaps he could say companies will only annoy larger companies which are whether the percentages that I have just quoted are the source of reservists—or territorials, at the moment. basically the same today, some four years later, in The amendment in the name of the noble Lords, respect of where current TA members come from. If Lord Rosser and Lord Tunnicliffe, also mentions the that is the case, are the Government looking to change self-employed. The idea of the self-employed going that breakdown by employment of sources of Reserve into the reserves under the new arrangements is that Forces recruitment, bearing in mind that one of the they will receive £500 a month, or whatever it is, to key roles of the reserves in future will be to provide substitute for their self-employed earnings. That is a key specialist skills needed to support our Regular decision that they would need to make, and I hope Forces to a greater extent than today? they will make it positively; but the self-employed I should like to raise a question about reservists person is not so much worried about the £500 per who are unemployed—in particular, to ask the Minister month substitute for earnings from their customers or how Jobcentre Plus views unemployed potential reservists their clients as about keeping their customers and going off for extended periods, in light of the requirement their clients while they are away, and money does not that they should sign on and apply for jobs on a solve that. GC 231 Defence Reform Bill[LORDS] Defence Reform Bill GC 232

[LORD PALMER OF CHILDS HILL] I would like briefly to highlight what current payments I was interested in the comment made by the noble we make to both the reservist and their employer when Lord, Lord Rosser, about the unemployed. It was a we mobilise a reservist. Reservists are entitled to claim point that I had not thought about, and I, too, would for a “reservist award” and to make an allowable welcome the Minister’s reply on that point. expenses claim. The reservist award consists of a salary top-up—a payment made to reservists whose military The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry salary, when called out for operations, is less than their of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): My Lords, the civilian earnings. Reservists can also claim for benefits Bill proposes granting the Secretary of State a power, in kind—benefits that have been suspended or withdrawn by regulations, to make payments to the employers of by their employers while the reservist is mobilised. The reservists over and above those which may currently benefits covered include, but are not limited to, health be made. The current scheme allows employers to or medical insurance, life insurance, accommodation, recover costs incurred in covering the work of employees education fees for dependent children and the loss of a who are mobilised. Those costs may include the hiring company car used by the reservist’s dependants. The of temporary staff or the payment of overtime. resulting payment for all these elements of the reservist’s award, taken together, is subject to an upper limit or The new power is intended to allow the Secretary of cap—less their service pay—of £548 per day, or £822 per State some flexibility as to the provision to be made in day for certain medical officers. When, in connection regulations made under it—for example, as to which with their mobilised service, a reservist chooses to employers may receive a payment and which Reserve remain in his occupational pension scheme and continues Forces activities trigger entitlement to a payment. to make his employee pension payments, any contributions However, the current intention is that the regulations withdrawn by his employer will be paid by the MoD. will authorise the making of payments only to employers in small and medium-sized enterprises whose reservist The allowable expenses claim consists of additional employees are mobilised. The Secretary of State will payments for the care of a dependent child or relative, be required to consult various bodies before making additional expenses for the care of a pet, additional the regulations, including the Reserve Forces and cadet home insurance premiums and payments for the essential associations and a body representing the interests of maintenance of the reservist’s main residence and employers. garden for security purposes to ensure that the property I welcome the noble Lord’s desire to recognise that looks lived-in. The resulting allowable expenses claim while all employers may feel some impact from the is without limit, but is subject to providing clear medium or long-term absence of staff, it is small and documentation of claims. medium-sized enterprises that are likely to feel the Employers are entitled to claim certain costs related greatest effects. We listened to employers during the to the mobilisation of an employee. The “employer’s Green Paper consultation and seek to reflect this award” consists of up to £110 per day—in other concern in the regulations. words, approximately £40,000 per year—which is the Amendment 17A would allow the regulations to amount by which the following “replacement costs” make provision in such a way that the sums payable incurred by the employer exceed the reservist’s earnings. could vary depending on the size of the employer’s These replacement costs are limited to pay for, if business. In particular, it would allow larger payments appropriate, the replacement of the reservist, and, if to be made to small and medium-sized businesses and relevant, any overtime payments to existing employees to employers who are self-employed. The effect that and an increase in salary for an existing employee, as this amendment seeks to achieve is already achieved well as certain non-recurring or one-off agency fees by new Section 84A, taken together with the amendments and advertising costs—VAT exclusive only, where the made to Section 85(1) of the Reserve Forces Act 1996. employer’s business is registered for VAT purposes. An Sections 84A and 85(1) already give the Secretary of employer may claim the cost of retraining a reservist State the flexibility to provide in the regulations so on return to work, where needed, for the reservist’s that the sums payable vary depending on the size of re-employment. There is no provision for additional the employer’s business. The current intention is that administration costs and the extra costs of training an the regulations will authorise the making of payments external replacement for the reservist or, indeed, one to employers in SMEs only. This is because larger of his colleagues now doing his work. The capped companies are more likely to be able to absorb the amount—that is, £110 per day—is intended to represent costs and disruptions associated with absences from the quantifiable extra costs, above the reservist’s normal work to undertake Reserve Forces activities. pay, of employing a temporary replacement. The employer We have not made provision for the making of is not, of course, paying the reservist during their payments to the self-employed in respect of their own mobilisation. Reserve Forces activities, as such payments are made Depending on their personal circumstances, a self- in recognition of the impact placed on employers. The employed reservist may claim under SI 2005/859 as self-employed reservist has elected to become a reservist a reservist, as an employer, or both. However, such a and so accepted the risk of being mobilised themselves. reservist cannot make a claim for an award to recover Were we to pay them, we would, in effect, be handing the same cost as a part of the reservist’s or employer’s the self-employed reservist a pay rise of up to £500 per award. month when mobilised. I do not believe that that would be a good use of taxpayers’ money, or would be We recognise the importance of reserve service and well received by those reservists who are not self-employed, have sought to address the financial issues for both or by regulars. reservists and employers that mobilisation brings. In GC 233 Defence Reform Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Defence Reform Bill GC 234 relation to the power to make further payments that we are bringing in with Clause 46, I can assure noble Amendment 18 Lords that we will keep the payments under review and, if we need to make alterations and adjustments in Moved by Lord Astor of Hever future, we will have the flexibility to do so. 18: Before Clause 47, insert the following new Clause— I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Palmer for “Report on volunteer reserve forces his support, and I very much agree with the points that In Part 11 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 (reserve he made. I will try to answer his question along with associations), after section 113 insert— the answer I will give to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. “113A Duty to prepare report on volunteer reserve forces The noble Lord asked whether percentages were (1) An association must prepare an annual report on the state still the same, and broadly the answer is yes. He asked of the volunteer reserve forces so far as concerns the area for about the Jobcentre view of reservist training; it is which the association is established. provided for and is counted as being available for work. (2) A report on the state of the volunteer reserve forces is a He asked whether financial assistance at £500 would report that sets out the association’s assessment of the capabilities be enough for small businesses. The Federation of of the volunteer reserve forces, having regard to the duties that Small Businesses said that it was more than it expected. may be imposed on members of those forces by or under this Act It is always a judgment and if we need to be flexible, or any other enactment. we can be. (3) The assessment referred to in subsection (2) must, in particular, include the association’s views on the effect of each of the following matters on the capabilities of the volunteer reserve 3.45 pm forces— The noble Lord asked how specific the legislation (a) the recruiting of members for the volunteer reserve was in relation to small and medium-sized businesses forces; and financial assistance. The primary legislation allows (b) the retention of members of those forces; us to be flexible; the intent is to focus on small and (c) the provision of training for those forces; medium-sized enterprises, but we can be flexible if (d) the upkeep of land and buildings for whose management needed in future. He asked, too, about the loss of the and maintenance the association is responsible. person or the business. There is a process whereby (4) A report under subsection (1) must also set out the employers can defer the call-out of their employee if association’s assessment of the provision that is made as regards their business will be badly affected. We offer financial the mental welfare of members and former members of the support to employers during mobilisation to cover volunteer reserve forces. things such as recruitment of temporary staff and (5) An association must send a report under subsection (1) to overtime for remaining staff. I hope that that answers the Secretary of State— his questions. I ask him to withdraw his amendment. (a) in the case of the first report, before the first anniversary of the day on which the last Future Reserves 2020 report Lord Rosser: Before I withdraw my amendment, prepared before the coming into force of this section was can I clarify what I think has been said? We are talking presented to the Secretary of State, and about the additional payments to the employer, over (b) in the case of subsequent reports, before the anniversary and above what has already been paid—and I thank of the day on which the first report was laid before Parliament under subsection (6). the Minister for setting out what the current arrangements are. On the additional payment, which is one of £500 a (6) On receiving a report under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must lay a copy of it before Parliament. month for each month that a reservist is mobilised, can I confirm that the intention is that that will be (7) The duties under this section may, instead of being performed by an association, be performed by a joint committee appointed paid only to small and medium-sized businesses? I under section 116 by two or more associations in relation to their think that he then said that there would be flexibility combined areas. over the level of the payment. Does that flexibility (8) Where by virtue of subsection (7) a joint committee has the mean that it could exceed that £500? duty to prepare a report— (a) references in subsections (1) to (5) to an association are Lord Astor of Hever: The answer to the noble to be read as if they were to the joint committee, and Lord’s first question is definitely yes—it is just for the (b) section 117(1)(a) (power to regulate manner in which SMEs. I shall need to get back to the noble Lord on functions are exercised) has effect as if the reference to the second question. associations were to the joint committee. (9) In subsection (5)(a), “Future Reserves 2020 report” means Lord Rosser: I thank the Minister for his reply and a report prepared by the External Scrutiny Group on the Future the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, for his Reserves 2020 programme.”” contribution. I am grateful to the Minister for setting out on the record what the current situation is and Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, during consideration what the Government’s intentions are as regards this of this Bill in the House of Commons, the Secretary of additional payment. In the light of the reply, I beg State made a commitment to introduce in this House a leave to withdraw the amendment. government amendment on Reserve Forces that would reflect an amendment tabled by Julian Brazier and Amendment 17A withdrawn. 37 other Members of Parliament. Amendment 18 is that amendment, inserting a new clause into the Bill. Clause 46 agreed. It amends the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to place reserve associations, also known as Reserve Forces and cadets Schedule 7 agreed. associations, under a statutory duty to report annually GC 235 Defence Reform Bill[LORDS] Defence Reform Bill GC 236

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] is scheduled for 13 February. On 19 December last to the Secretary of State for Defence on the state of year, the Secretary of State also published the indicative the volunteer Reserve Forces. The new clause requires target figures for the future growth of the reserves in the Secretary of State to lay a copy of any such report order to reach the identified trained strength target. before Parliament. However, as I have made clear, the reserves are Reserve associations are community-facing unique and, because of that, and the importance of organisations which provide an essential bridge between the Future Reserves 2020 programme success, it is right our Armed Forces and the civilian population. An that we should put in place a system for independent association exists for each of 13 administrative areas scrutiny of the state of the reserves as a specific entity. of the United Kingdom. They provide advice and The new section which this new clause seeks to insert support on behalf of our volunteer Reserve Forces into the Reserve Forces Act 1996 requires an annual and cadets, work with the chains of command of the report to set out an assessment of the capabilities of Royal Navy, the Army and the Royal Air Force and the volunteer Reserve Forces, having regard to the establish and maintain links with the community. duties that may be imposed on members of those The new clause recognises the importance of the forces, which include mobilised service under a call-out receipt of independent reports from reserve associations order. to ensure programme success in growing and revitalising Reports must, in particular, cover the effect of the the Reserve Forces. The reporting requirement that following four matters on the capabilities of the volunteer the new clause introduces is working with the grain of Reserve Forces: first, the recruiting of members for what the Government are already doing. It is based on the volunteer Reserve Forces; secondly, the retention the existing non-statutory arrangement under which a of members of those forces; thirdly, the provision of scrutiny group, appointed by the Council of Reserve training for those forces; and, fourthly, the upkeep of Forces’ and Cadets’ Associations, reports annually on land and buildings for whose management and the Future Reserves 2020 programme and overall health maintenance the reserve associations are responsible. of the reserve forces. Reports must also contain an assessment of the provision Under our plans for the whole force concept, the that is made as regards the mental welfare of members reserves will become an integral part of our future and former members of the volunteer Reserve Forces. force structure, charged with delivering vital capability This follows a further commitment made by the Secretary for the Armed Forces and providing resilience and of State in the House of Commons. reinforcement. However, we must not forget the unique This brings me neatly to Amendment 18C. The and distinct nature of our reserves. They are civilians Government are absolutely committed to improving who have also elected to serve their country in uniform. the mental health of serving and former members of That tens of thousands have volunteered to serve their both the Regular Forces and Reserve Forces. Noble country as a reservist, with some 25,000 serving in Lords will be aware that my colleague, Dr Andrew Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years, is humbling, but Murrison, carried out a review of mental health provision also a true reminder of the volunteer and community within the Armed Forces. We have worked closely with ethos across this nation, something of which we can the UK Department of Health, the NHS and third be very proud. sector organisations to implement the recommendations In revitalising the Reserve Forces, we have been from his Fighting Fit report. This has been backed by careful to recognise, and put in place measures to £7.4 million of government money. address, the extra challenges that reservists face in Defence is already very open about the mental balancing their military service with their civilian health of the Armed Forces population and the provisions employment and, in many cases, family responsibilities. we make to address issues. A great deal of this information That is why, when the Government undertook to is already published in the public domain. This includes revitalise the Reserve Forces through the Future Reserves the covenant annual report, which contains a specific 2020 programme, we focused on measures to make healthcare chapter, and official defence statistics, such reserve service more attractive to reservists and their as those pertaining to the Veterans and Reserves Mental employers and put in place support measures for the Health Programme. Defence is of course also engaged reservist and their families. with and supports ongoing independent research The performance of defence as a whole is already programmes in the health arena, which are publicly subject to considerable external scrutiny, be that by available. For example, the King’s Centre for Military the National Audit Office or the House of Commons Health Research has been commissioned to undertake Defence Committee—and, of course, by the many a further phase of its longitudinal cohort study, which MPs and noble Lords with considerable defence interests includes reservists. and experience. All have shown themselves to be very The Secretary of State made a commitment to proficient at examining the performance of defence in bring forward an amendment in this House to require its entirety and on specific issues, programmes or reserve associations to report annually on the state of projects. the Reserve Forces. Recognising the importance of the I should also point out that the Ministry of Defence issue of mental health, he undertook to include mental already provides a considerable amount of information welfare provision in the list of matters that those of its own volition. The quarterly personnel report annual reports must cover. Amendment 18 makes published in November 2013 gave the numbers of provision for this. Accordingly, I do not believe trained and untrained reservists and movements into that subsection (1) of the new clause proposed in and out of the reserve population. The next publication Amendment 18C is necessary. GC 237 Defence Reform Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Defence Reform Bill GC 238

In terms of annual spend on mental health provision 4pm for serving and former members of the Reserve Forces, The first strand is financial. Defence has a fixed it would not be practicable to produce meaningful resource envelope and it is essential that we deliver the financial data. In part, this is because it would be maximum capability from that resource envelope. It is difficult to separate this cost from the cost of provision true that when deployed on operations, reserves can in for regulars. Also, much of the provision for serving some cases be more expensive than Regular Forces. and former reservists is provided by the NHS at the However, when held as a contingency reserves are local level, and extracting these financial data would significantly cheaper: about one-fifth of the cost. We be a real problem. pay for the whole cost of a regular whether they are With regard to medical records, once demobilised, deployed on operations or not. As the Chief of the it is a long-established tradition that Reserve Forces’ Defence Staff commented recently: medical care becomes the responsibility of their local “There simply is no appropriate allocation of the current NHS services, and the majority of their physical and defence budget that could protect or sustain a larger regular mental health needs are met by this provision. Army and still realise the sort of Armed Forces that we need for the security challenges of the future … But a healthy and vibrant On the specifics of the current process for those Reserve does give you cost-effective resilience for enduring operations. leaving the Armed Forces or the Reserve Forces, when And it offers … access to a range of skills that defence struggles registering with their GP the veteran’s NHS record to sustain within its regular structure”. will be sent to the GP with a letter included in it that Retaining capabilities that we no longer require in will inform the GP that they have been under the care such numbers or readiness adds cost to defence, as of the Defence Medical Services and detailing how the does retaining full-time personnel in roles more suitable GP can get the full record. Work is being carried out for reservists. to further develop our systems in the future to allow for a summary of in-service care to be included with The £1.8 billion budget for the Future Reserves the NHS record when it is sent to the civilian GP. programme is the planned spend over the life of the These proposed modifications will in future ensure programme, to financial year 2021-22, and includes that the NHS GP knows that they are dealing with a funding for such items as additional recruiting, training veteran and that the veteran is automatically given a and spending on infrastructure and new equipment. It copy of the full Defence Medical Services medical also includes provision for paid leave and pension history if they decide that they require it. entitlements from 2015 for reservists. Across financial years 2012-13 and 2013-14, we have so far spent about As well as engaging with reservists, we have worked 10% of the additional allocation. This money is over with the Department of Health to provide an electronic and above the core funding that the single services training package for GPs. This will help GPs to be already hold for their reserve elements. more familiar with both the Reserve Forces’ and veterans’ community, and allow them to better recognise and That brings me to the second argument: that what monitor the needs of their patients. we are doing is about capability and getting the greatest effect from the available budget. The nature of warfare In addition, current and former members of the is always evolving and defence must evolve to meet Reserve Forces are entitled to attend the Veterans and those threats as determined by the national security Reserves Mental Health Programme. That programme strategy. The strategic defence and security report then is open to any current or former member of the UK sets out how best to allocate defence’s resources and volunteer reserve and regular reserve who has been capabilities to deal with the threats that we face. We demobilised since 1 January 2003 following an overseas are drawing down in capability areas where the SDSR operational deployment as a reservist and who believes process demonstrated that we no longer need regulars that the deployment may have adversely affected their in such numbers, such as heavy armour and artillery, mental health. Under the programme, we liaise with and investing in new capability areas such as cyber. In the individual’s GP and offer a mental health assessment. September, the Secretary of State announced the creation If diagnosed to have a combat-related mental health of a cyber reserve unit. This is about not simply condition, we then offer out-patient treatment via one replacing the regulars with the reserves but reconfiguring of the MoD’s departments of community mental health. our Armed Forces for the threats that they will have to If more acute cases present themselves, the Defence meet on our behalf. Medical Services will assist access to NHS in-patient treatment. Under the changes, the reserves will help us to draw from some advanced skills that are better honed and Therefore, I believe that we are taking mental health maintained in partnership with the civil sector, such as seriously.We are working with reservists, former reservists, medical or cyber skills. The benefits to defence from the medical community and other interested parties to medical reservists are obvious: we utilise those skills ensure that everything that should be done is being and capabilities when we need to—on operations—but done. However, I of course will welcome the view of when not on operations that medic is employed in the the Reserve Forces and cadets associations as they NHS, building and maintaining their medical skills. report in due course on this issue. The NHS also gains by having staff who have worked I turn to Amendment 18F, the last amendment in in world-class trauma hospitals such as that at Camp this group, which seeks a report on the cost-effectiveness Bastion, where 97% of those who enter for treatment and viability of the Future Reserves 2020 programme. come out alive, and where cutting-edge and life-saving I would like to remind the Committee why we are techniques from the battlefield are now brought back making these changes. There are two strands to why for use in NHS hospitals. The changes we are making we are doing this. will deliver the most defence capability for the money GC 239 Defence Reform Bill[LORDS] Defence Reform Bill GC 240

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] end of this year. So this is all absolutely in accordance we have available. We could debate for hours whether with a strategic design that flows through the National defence should be subjected to the finance cuts to Security Strategy. which it is subject, but the fact is that it is and defence We would all agree, I am sure, that this programme will have to play its part in helping reduce the deficit. should be subject to proper and effective scrutiny. We In terms of the viability of the plan, we have always have put forward a government amendment to do said that growing the Reserve Forces to 35,000 by 2018 precisely that, with a report put to Parliament where it would be challenging but achievable. That is why the will be for the business managers to decide in the White Paper we published earlier this year set out our normal way what to do with that report. Leaving that plans to reverse the long-term decline of the reserves, report aside, the performance of defence as a whole is redefining their role and setting out details of improved already subject to considerable external scrutiny, be equipment, training, terms and conditions. that the National Audit Office, the House of Commons I do not want to rehearse for too long the issues Defence Committee, or in defence Questions from around recruitment as we will come to these in the MPs or Peers. Furthermore, as the Secretary of State next group. I acknowledge that there have been problems said during an evidence session with the Defence with the IT support systems for the recruiting campaigns Committee on 5 November, the strategic defence and for the Regular Army and Army Reserve. The issue of security review 2015, delays in the recruiting process has the highest level of “will certainly want to look at the Future Force 2020 construct attention, both ministerial and military, and measures and decide whether it needs to evolve further to 2025 in response are being put in place to address this. to a changing environment”. The latest quarterly figures released on 14 November The next strategic defence and security review will showed the Army Reserve trained strength numbers take place at a time when the programme has had had decreased in the last year by 130, which is a drop some time to develop and demonstrate maturity. of 0.6%. While we would all like to see increases, rather than decreases, I do not believe a drop of 0.6% Lord Robertson of Port Ellen: The Minister mentions is a calamity. It was only in mid-September that the the SDSR of 2015. That is presumably ongoing at the Army launched a new recruitment campaign based on moment as 2015 is, after all, next year. What consultations the new reserve proposition and the latest marketing has the department had with the various stakeholders campaign began in early January. To date, the campaigns in defence, such as Her Majesty’s Opposition, the have generated increased expressions of interest and trade unions, the press, the diplomatic corps, the think applications to join the reserves, but any intake from tanks and the academics who will be involved? Is there this campaign would not be reflected in November’s any outside involvement whatever in achieving a degree quarterly personnel report publication. Indeed, the of consensus on what will be published around the next quarter’s publication, due this week, will not time of the next general election? reflect the marketing campaign that began in January. We are just over six months into a five-year programme Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I will try to answer to revitalise the reserves. This is Future Reserves 2020, the noble Lord’s question when I respond to other not Future Reserves 2014. The Secretary of State and noble Lords’ questions. I repeat that the next SDSR, the Chief of the Defence Staff remain confident that which will take place at a time when the programme we will meet our target. The increase to 35,000 reservists has had some time to develop and demonstrate maturity, is not breaking entirely new ground. In the 1980s, the would be the right time to scrutinise the force structure Territorial Army was 75,000 strong, recruited from a and whether it needs to adapt to reflect new threats, smaller population. Our main allies rely more heavily opportunities or other such variables. I beg to move. on reserves than we do. Reserves are around 17% of our total Armed Forces, which are scheduled to rise to some 20% under our proposals. This compares to 36% Lord Rosser: One of the joys of having amendments in Australia, 51% in Canada and 55% in the United in a group where the Government have the first States. amendment is that you get the Government’s response before being able to explain the reasons for your own In terms of overall numbers, there will be a delta amendments. However, I would not wish the Minister where we have fewer forces in the period between 2015 to take that in any way as a criticism because we are and 2017 than we will from 2018 onwards, but that is always extremely grateful for the thoroughness with by design. Also, it is set against a revised defence which he replies to amendments and for the extent of planning assumption for what we are going to be the information he provides to us. I will be as interested doing with our forces, particularly in terms of the as my noble friend Lord Robertson of Port Ellen in potential for enduring operations, in the period the answer to the question he raised about the amount immediately after we come out of Afghanistan and of discussion that is or is not currently going on in finish combat operation there at the end of next year. relation to the SDSR due in 2015. Government Amendment 18 and my Lord Robertson of Port Ellen (Lab): The end of next Amendments 18C and 18F have one thing in common; year? namely, they all provide for reports of one form or another. The Minister has explained the thinking behind Lord Astor of Hever: I shall read that again. I refer the Government’s amendment, which, as he said, has to the period immediately after we come out of arisen from a commitment given when the Bill was Afghanistan and finish combat operation there at the being considered in the other place. We have no issues GC 241 Defence Reform Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Defence Reform Bill GC 242 with the Government’s Amendment 18. Our Amendment 4.15 pm 18C calls on the Secretary of State to publish annually Amendment 18F provides for the Secretary of State, an analysis of the mental health provision for members within one year of enactment, to lay before Parliament and former members of the Reserve Forces and to a report on the viability and cost-effectiveness of the report on the annual spend on such services. On that plans set out in the Reserves in the Future Force 2020 latter point, I note that the Minister said, in effect—I paper, together with his recommendation on its further appreciate these were not his exact words—that this implementation. The Government’s Amendment 18 information could not be provided. provides for an annual report on volunteer Reserve The amendment also makes provision for the transfer Forces to be prepared by reserve associations, and of medical records belonging to former members of there is a requirement for the Secretary of State to lay the Reserve Forces to the National Health Service and a copy of each report before Parliament. However, for the monitoring of the health needs of former these reports, welcome though they are, will not address members of the Reserve Forces. Without such an the issue of viability and cost-effectiveness referred arrangement working effectively, there is a distinct to in Amendment 18F, nor will they be assessed by possibility of reservists going to their GP and their full the Secretary of State or contain his recommendation medical history not being available. I appreciate what on further implementation, as provided for in the Minister has already said in that context, but the Amendment 18F. reason for putting down the amendment with this We should not proceed with the implementation of requirement is because of claims that this is not what the Reserves in the Future Force 2020 plans without happens on occasions. any requirement within a short period of time for the Secretary of State to report to Parliament on the key Mental health provision is, if anything, even more issues of viability and cost-effectiveness—issues to of an issue for reservists than for members of our which the Secretary of State normally attaches Regular Forces as reservists after deployment go back considerable importance— particularly bearing in mind into the civilian world rather than back to their units the greatly enhanced role that our reserves will have in and can undoubtedly feel isolated on occasion. Hence the future under these plans and the extent to which the importance of the Ministry of Defence and the our Regular Forces will be dependent on the reserves National Health Service knowing where reservists can for the provision of key support skills. be contacted and ensuring that they get the support they need. Lord Dannatt (CB): My Lords, I generally support the intention behind Amendments 18 and 18C but I A study published in 2012 showed a significantly draw attention to two underlying concerns that I have higher rate of common mental health disorders and with regard to the overall policy that the amendments post-traumatic stress disorder among reservists, with refer to. the incidence of other types of mental illness being greater than that of PTSD, as it also is for regulars. The noble Lord, Lord Astor, in proposing The study also drew attention to the fact that reservists Amendment 18, made reference to the fact that the have much more difficulty with post-deployment social Reserve Forces of the future will look very different functioning and that such difficulties appear important from the Reserve Forces of the past, and that, by not only to mental health but to fitting back into the design, is absolutely right. However, we have to remember family. why we have deployed so many members of the Reserve Forces over the past 10 years. Following the defence In future, we will be expecting a greater and different review of 1997-98 led by the noble Lord, Lord Robertson kind of commitment from our reserves and we need to of Port Ellen, a certain amount of work was allocated ensure more than ever that the advances we have made to the Army, Navy and Air Force. In the case of our with the Regular Forces with regard to mental illness, to land forces, we would be involved in one medium-scale which the Minister has already referred, are also achieved ongoing operation and another medium-scale operation for our Reserve Forces. Government Amendment 18 of six months’ duration. As we all know perfectly well, provides for the annual report from reserve associations from 2003 to the present date, and particularly in that to include that association’s assessment of the provision very intense period from about 2006 to 2009, we were that is made regarding the mental welfare of members committed to two considerable-sized—I do not use and former members of the volunteer Reserve Forces the words “large” or “medium” because the definition but, apart from the issue of the extent to which reserve does not fit either—operations in Iraq and Afghanistan associations would be qualified to make such a full concurrently, well over and above the planning assessment, the Government’s amendment does not assumptions that were put in place in the defence lay any requirement on the Secretary of State to make review of 1997-98. Therefore, it was inevitable that we such an assessment or to address the issue of the were going to have to draw heavily on our Reserve transfer of medical records. Forces in order just to be able to do what we were going to do. It was not by design; it was by consequence. We believe it is important that there is such a Now, in the consequences of the 2010 SDSR, we requirement on the Secretary of State as well, particularly have decided to reduce significantly—and I speak in relation to making the assessment. Making the particularly in terms of the land forces—the size of provision set out in Amendment 18C and putting it in our Regular Army, and we are going to compensate the Bill would help to ensure that mental health provision for that loss of capability by having a large reserve for members and former members of the Reserve training force. I understand that, and in theory I could Forces was regarded with the importance that it deserves. see it working, but I have two concerns. GC 243 Defence Reform Bill[LORDS] Defence Reform Bill GC 244

[LORD DANNATT] Amendment 18F calls for a report within one year First—I have to choose my words carefully because of enactment. Its wording is too restrictive to reflect I do not want to appear more critical than I intend—I accurately issues as they may arise around viability challenge the transparency and perhaps honesty of and cost-effectiveness and we would not wish to support some aspects of that policy. What the Ministry of that proposed clause. Defence has done in its very constrained cash situation Providing an annual report to the Secretary of is effectively to move off balance sheet some of the State, which must also be laid before Parliament, liability of our land forces and put them back in the provides reassurance that the position will be kept Treasury. We will deploy large numbers of these Reserve under review for all three services. We have quite Forces only in a future considerable-sized operation naturally concentrated more on the Army than the such as that of Iraq or Afghanistan of the past 10 years. Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force, partly because of It is when we deploy those large numbers of reservists the numbers involved and partly because the Reserves that they have to be paid for. They are not going to be are integrated already, in a different way, with the paid for by the Ministry of Defence because they will Royal Air Force. Obviously within the annual report it come from the contingency fund held by the Treasury. will be helpful to identify where there are differences So the Ministry of Defence has solved a large chunk between the three services and to identify examples of of its problem but has not necessarily solved our best practice which might cross-refer between them. national problem. I merely raise question marks about As the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, said in his remarks whether we are being completely transparent about its about mental health, there is a general agreement that shift in policy. this is an important issue. We agree with the Minister My second concern, which we have already alluded that this is covered within Amendment 18 and we do to today, is to do with the provision of mental health not see the need for additional medical detail, particularly support. We know that reservists when demobilised in the Bill. There may well be a case for having are in a more difficult situation than regulars when guidance which sets this out more clearly, but not in they return from operations—the facts prove that—and the Bill. therefore we are taking measures to alleviate the potential situation that some of the demobilised reservists will It is timely that today sees the publication of the find themselves in. I question the fundamental morality Veterans’ Transition Review of the noble Lord, Lord of taking a policy decision that we will use more Ashcroft. Almost certainly within that there will be reservists on difficult deployed operations knowing recommendations which will help to influence the that it will place them in an adverse mental health response to or implementation of what is happening position. I wonder whether that is right. I raise those to the reserves under this Bill. Will there be a government two points as underlying concerns, albeit these response to that review? It would be helpful to have a amendments, at least in part, speak to them. debate on it in the light of the recommendations of the noble Lord, Lord Ashcroft. My third and final point, which has been mentioned already today by the noble Lord, Lord Astor, is that In summary, we support Amendment 18, and while we know we will have a gap between 2015 and 2017-18, seeing value in the proposed two new clauses of the the regulars having been reduced and our not being noble Lord, Lord Rosser, we do not see them as able, according to current plans, to increase the number essential to the Bill. of reservists. As recently as 2011 it was still government policy that we would not reduce the Regular Forces Lord Robertson of Port Ellen: I would like to say a until we had built up the reservists. We have changed few words in relation to some of the more general that policy and so we are accepting risk. That risk issues concerned here. I return to the question I asked could be reduced by slowing down the rundown of the about SDSR 2015 because it concerns me that we Regular Forces at the moment, but I presume that the might be going through exactly the same kind of Government would say that, looking beyond Afghanistan, exercise as we did for the SDSR that was done from the end of this year onwards they cannot see the previously in six months. I do not want to draw any prospect of another major operation and so it is a risk comparisons with the one that I supervised in 1998; it worth carrying. lasted a lot longer than it should have. It still managed Many noble Lords have mentioned the issue of risk to do so but it was affected by the circumstances in the past and I simply point to this as another risk which came after it, as the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, that we are taking. We have Armed Forces that are less said. However, it did not become outdated as quickly capable than they were and, certainly in terms of our as the SDSR that the new Government brought in, land forces, they are smaller than they were, and we which quickly came face to face with the reality of are willingly taking on additional risk. I raise those Libya after it was put in place. It focused on 2020 but three points as concerns about the underlying policy, was then faced with the situation in Libya as well. although I agree that Amendment 18C attends, at least in part, to the mental health issue. Importantly, the defence review that we did in 1998 established a consensus. Perhaps for the first time in Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD): My Lords, we, military history, the review was accepted by all the too, welcome the Minister’s Amendment 18. As he defence chiefs both in public, as one might have said, there was broad support for this when it was expected, and in private because it represented a view debated in the House of Commons. It is therefore that was consensual. After the new Government came appreciated that the Government have brought forward into place, we embarked upon a consultation exercise this amendment and accepted the principle of the new that made sure that all the stakeholders had an opportunity clause to be agreed in this House. to express a view. The Ministers, Robin Cook and GC 245 Defence Reform Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Defence Reform Bill GC 246 myself, and the Permanent Secretaries in the Ministry conscripts. Gradually, over the years, they got the of Defence, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office message. For example, the last three Defence Ministers and the Department for International Development in Germany have stopped responding to the preaching did a roadshow that went round the country, and from NATO about the uselessness of their conscript which also embraced pretty much every stakeholder in forces, and have actually done something about the business. When it came out, it was therefore a professionalising their Armed Forces. There is something genuine security and defence review. profoundly wrong with a situation where, of the some The failure of the last SDSR was, essentially, that it 2.5 million people in uniform in European Armed was a Treasury-led exercise, done far too quickly and Forces, only 2%, at the moment, can be deployed involving far too few elements. I fear that that is outside of national boundaries. In both Iraq and in precisely what is happening at this stage. I have consulted Afghanistan, we found the limitations that that places the Opposition to see whether anybody has bothered upon our Armed Forces. In many ways, the problem to ask them about the initial preparation or any of the that we are faced with today and the reliance that we discussions taking place at present, and the shadow have on existing Reserve Forces, is that reserves are Defence Secretary assures me that no such approaches particularly unsuited for some combat situations. We have been made. We look as though we are again have used them only in emergency or in desperation— getting ourselves into the trap of something being whereas the conscript forces of some of the countries prepared at or around the next election campaign, still inside NATO cannot be deployed at all, and are which will essentially be based on a Treasury view not even very good at back-filling. about what the country can afford and how the rest of I finish on the point that the noble Baroness, Lady it fits into that. Garden, made about the Ashcroft review. I had a brief look at the e-mail from the noble Lord, Lord Ashcroft, Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab): My noble friend is but I am confident that he, as a former vice-chairman saying some important things but does he agree that if of the Conservative Party, has given an advance copy the Government are serious about producing or drafting to the Ministry of Defence and that the Minister will an SDSR, they ought at an early stage to be consulting be able to comment on some of the recommendations not merely with the list of people who he quite rightly that the noble Lord has made in today’s report. set out—the academics, think tanks and other stakeholders in this country—but with our allies, particularly the United States and our EU allies? If they do not Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, first, the noble consult them, the review that comes out may be Lord, Lord Robertson, asked in some detail about the inconsistent with the strategic intentions and plans of next SDSR. I assure him that there is a lot of activity our key allies. Opportunities for fruitful collaboration in the Ministry of Defence on this subject. I will write or for the division of labour will be lost and it may to him about this in some detail. The noble Lord has a well be that unfortunate misunderstandings will be great deal of experience and wisdom on this subject, sown. and my door in the Ministry of Defence is always open to him. He has met the Secretary of State in the Lord Robertson of Port Ellen: Indeed, my noble past and I am happy to facilitate further meetings for friend makes an extremely good point. In many ways, the noble Lord to pass on his wisdom at any time. it goes without saying. It may well be that there are Secondly, the noble Lord asked me if this is a some discussions going on with our allies and inside Treasury-led exercise. We do consult other departments NATO about it. I would hope so, although I am a bit and external shareholders, but we must be aware of pessimistic about most of these things since it becomes the resources available. We have seen the result of not opaque. Part of the dispiriting nature of the way in doing so in the past. In support of the Cabinet-led which the British political system works is that you go process, the MoD is undertaking a well defined from everything to zero quickly, as my noble friend programme of research and activity to understand the will know only too well from being in government. In future strategic content, examine policy options and government, you know everything and then when you test the continued validity of Future Force 2020. are in opposition you are allowed access to pretty much nothing at all. Therefore, having been Secretary- The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked about our General of NATO and knowing everything that was allies. I, as well as other Minsters and senior officials going on inside that organisation, it was a grim experience in the MoD, constantly meet our allies. I have absolutely to then dredge the newspapers and the occasional no doubt that they are feeding their requirements and website to try to find out what was actually going on. wishes into the SDSR, as they did with the last one The point that is being made is that the widest possible and, I am sure, with the one that the noble Lord consultation is required, so that, at the end of the day, mentioned earlier. the review is fixed, has traction and makes sense in the The noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, was concerned light of the international circumstances as well as of about the reserves. It is not true that we are planning domestic public opinion. Without that, it will fall to use more reserves than in the past. As I said, we are apart, and fall apart quite quickly. trying to build up our niche skill supply of cyber and medics. The reserves will not be less capable; they will 4.30 pm be better equipped, trained and paid, with pensions, I come on to the issue of the reserves. During my and be given the same equipment as the regulars. I am time in NATO, I spent an unhealthy amount of time trying to organise a day out for noble Lords who are lecturing some of our allies on depending on reserve interested in this subject to a reserve unit close to forces—in particular those countries that depend on London that is paired with a regular unit. Noble GC 247 Defence Reform Bill[LORDS] Defence Reform Bill GC 248

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab): My Lords, the Lords and noble and gallant Lords will be able to talk Minister made a full and comprehensive speech under with the reserves and the regulars over any concerns. Amendment 18. It was a very good speech and set off However, all the reserve officers and soldiers to whom a kind of Second Reading debate, which was quite I have spoken recently are very happy with the equipment interesting. I broadly agree with him. As he knows, I that they are getting. utterly deprecate the reduction in our Regular Forces The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, was concerned about and our equipment capability, which this Government veterans once they leave the services. Work is being have brought in, but it is even more vital in that light carried out further to develop our systems to allow for that we make a success of our campaign to recruit a summary of in-service care to be included with the more reservists and to train and equip them properly. NHS record when it is sent to a civilian GP. These Nobody on this side of the House in any way disagrees proposed modifications will ensure that an NHS GP with the Government in that respect or does not want will know that they are dealing with a veteran and to do everything possible to make sure that that effort automatically give them a copy of the full Defence is a success. Medical Services medical history if they decide that However, I want to make one comment. There is a they need it. lack of clarity and frankness still about how we are The noble Lord asked about cost and viability. This planning to deploy our reserves under the new system. is a tier 1 programme that will be subject to the usual I am very glad that the Minister did not say, although scrutiny by Her Majesty’s Treasury on cost. Parliament I have heard it—and, evidently, from his speech the has the ability to scrutinise the issues and has done so, noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, has also heard—from but this has been a military-led programme that is six government Ministers in the past few years that, “We’re months old. We should seek to implement the plan reducing the regulars but we’re compensating by increasing and support the reserves, not seek to unpick this. the reserves”. That would be utterly irresponsible. The noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, asked whether There is no doubt at all that in certain areas such as payment for a large number of reserves was transparent. those the Minister mentioned, including medics and We have been clear that we are reducing the regulars signals experts, reservists may well play the majority and investing in the reserves. It is true that large-scale part in future combat operations. But when it comes use of the reserves could fall to the Treasury reserve; to the infantry it is extremely difficult—with the best the noble Lord is correct on that. He asked whether will in the world and with motivation and discipline there was a draw-down gap. It is a risk, but a manageable and morale being entirely equivalent, which is the one. We cannot retain the Regular Forces on the scale most that one can hope for—to train up reservists to of today on the existing budget. We have to make the exactly the same level of confidence and alertness that best use of our resources, and the reserves allow us to the regulars have. It is therefore very difficult to avoid do that. feeling that, if you deploy large numbers of reservists Is it morally right to place reserves in greater front- on combat operations, you will not have a higher line roles? The reserves have served with distinction— casualty rate, which would be very irresponsible. 25,000 have been on recent operations. They themselves We have successfully deployed on an embedded basis certainly want a greater role. We recognise a slight individuals who have been chosen for that in Iraq and increase in PTSD in the reserves, which is why we have Iran, with front-line troops going on patrol and so put in place the measures that I outlined earlier. forth and fighting intensive warfare. The Government The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, asked about the need to be clear about this because reservists need to veterans’ review by my noble friend Lord Ashcroft, know whether under the new regime they still have a which I understand was announced this morning. Just chance of that kind of experience. As I have said to the as I was leaving my office in the Ministry of Defence, I Minister privately, if they do not you may not succeed received a copy and have not had a chance to look at it in attracting the same calibre of people into the reserves. but will write in detail to the noble Lord about it. On the other hand, with the numbers going in both Finally, he asked about the role of the reserves and directions—the decline in the regulars and increase in our reliance on them. Reserves will have a range of the reserves—it is not going to be possible to deploy roles in supporting the regulars in high-intensity conflict, large numbers of reservists, because the success of leading low-intensity operations—for instance, Cyprus employing them on an embedded basis depends on peacekeeping—and providing capability that we cannot selecting individuals and making sure that the number retain in the regulars, including cyber and medical. of reservists is relatively small in relation to the regulars, This is not a like-for-like replacement of regulars with who are committed to a particular intensive operation. reserves. Also, as the noble Lord will know from his I want the Government to be absolutely clear about NATO days, the United States relies far more heavily this. There should be no beating about the bush at all. on reserves than we do, yet the US is the most capable It is perfectly respectable to say that those with medical of NATO members. and signal skills will not be needed the whole time on a In conclusion, I must resist Amendments 18C and contingency basis in the regular forces but we will 18F on the basis that what they are intended to need to draw on them—and, in any case, we need achieve is covered by Amendment 18. those people to be able to exercise their own professional activities and gain skills in the civilian sector when Amendment 18 agreed. they are not being deployed on operations, so they will be deployed on the front line, as they have been up to Debate on whether Clause 47 should stand part of the now. We have to be absolutely clear about our intentions Bill. for reservists, and it is really that they should not be GC 249 Defence Reform Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Defence Reform Bill GC 250 deployed in high-intensity warfare. When the Minister I hope that I have made my concern clear about the said—slightly vaguely, I thought, avoiding this issue—that potential loophole and that the Minister will give some they would be in supporting roles, which essentially thought as to whether it could be easily and sensibly means that they would be behind the wire rather than closed. outside it. We should be clear about that, but it is probably the right solution in all the circumstances. Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I apologise to the We need clarity, and we have not had it on that point. noble Lord for the length of my speech on the last Apart from that, I agreed very much with the clause. It contains important issues and I wanted to Minister’s speech, which I thought was good. This Bill cover them in some detail. is rightly generous—I do not complain about that—to Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, I must have employers and reservists in the financial incentives given the wrong impression. In no sense was I complaining and protections that it sets out. However, my reason about the length of the Minister’s speech. I thought I for speaking on this clause is that I am slightly worried. had congratulated him on a comprehensive speech, This is not a vastly or historically momentous point—far which had started an interesting debate. from it—and it is not one on which I have put an amendment down, although I suppose I could table Lord Astor of Hever: I apologise. Perhaps I one at Report, if needed. misunderstood when the noble Lord referred to Second A potential loophole is provided by Clause 47—almost Reading speeches. Anyway, I hope that I answered all a manhole in our path that some people might fall the important points. down. Therefore, I want to raise this whole matter, and The noble Lord referred to the lack of clarity in I hope that I get some reassurance. The object of deploying the reserves, especially the infantry. The Clause 47 is to provide protection for reservists who pairing of regulars and reserves on high-intensity combat have been less than two years in employment and who will include individuals and up to sub-unit level. We then face the sack wholly or partially because of their are changing the mobilisation limits to 12 months to membership of the reserve. Beyond two years, they enable greater pre-deployment training. I mentioned have the protections that everyone has under the earlier—I am sure the noble Lord will welcome this—that Employment Rights Act and a section—I cannot we must get more of the niche skills in the cyber field remember the number—of the Reserve Forces Act and in the medics, who we do not need the whole time. that makes it clear that people cannot be sacked when On talking to the reserves—I am sure the noble they are deployed, at risk of being deployed or about Lord has also done so—I found that a number of to be deployed. them want to deploy. When the noble Lord was a Defence Minister, I went to Afghanistan on a couple 4.45 pm of occasions and I met a number of reserves, who were There is an anomaly, which rightly would be closed very well trained. All the regulars to whom I spoke by the proposed new clause, that you can sack people were very impressed by the reserves and how well they with impunity at the present time within two years of trained and fitted into the Regular Army. I do not employment. It is right to close the loophole and I am think that there is any pressure on them being embedded glad that the Government are doing so. I am very with the regulars, and it is our plan that they train much in favour of the proposed new clause but together and use the same equipment. I should like to Clause 47(4) provides that the clause will come into organise for noble and gallant Lords a visit to a force only when the Secretary of State has declared reserve unit paired with a regular unit to talk to the that Parts 1, 2 and 3 of this Bill—or Act, as it will then soldiers. be on Royal Assent—have come into force. That is Lord Davies of Stamford: I thank the noble Lord contained in Clause 49(1). This means that there may and totally agree about this. The reserves have done a be some delay between Royal Assent to the Bill and wonderful job. I pay tribute to them. We have all paid when this provision, this protection, comes into force. tribute to them. I used to go to Afghanistan and Iraq As we all know, Parts 1, 2 and 3 provide for the every six months when I was in the MoD, and I saw Secretary of State to make a number of regulations. them on the front line in exactly the way the Minister All these regulations, in different fields, will require describes. As he knows, reservists take it as a matter of consultation and take time, and the bureaucracy will enormous professional pride—it is a thing they really spend a long time drafting them, as it always does. want—when their regular colleagues forget that they During that period, any less than fully benign employer are reservists. That does happen. You hear that from will see that he has an opportunity, if he wishes to do both sides. That is a tremendously high standard to so, to get rid of any employees within two years of achieve. People go into the Reserve Forces because their employment with complete impunity. That is the they are prepared to put themselves through the hell loophole, the manhole, about which I am concerned. of training up to that level and to risk their lives when We cannot legislate retrospectively but would it they are deployed. That is the military experience they not be more sensible to ensure that this last clause want. If they are going to have that on offer in future, in Part 3 comes into force with Part 4 of the Bill they must be honestly told that. If they are just going under subsection (3) of Clause 49 rather than under to be deployed behind the wire or on UN peace-keeping subsection (1), which would be the case under the operations, they need to be told that too. present drafting? This would mean that the protection would come into effect on the day on which the Bill is Lord Astor of Hever: The noble Lord makes a very passed, which is likely to be many months before good point. I will take away the points he made earlier Parts 1, 2 and 3 come into force. about Clause 47 and write to him on them. The noble GC 251 Defence Reform Bill[LORDS] Defence Reform Bill GC 252

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] this Bill for not only the current Secretary of State but Lord, Lord Robertson, mentioned the Ashcroft report. future Secretaries of State to publish the figure that If there is an appetite for it, I am very happy to will enable us all to know whether the targets for organise a Peers’ brief on it. Perhaps noble Lords will increasing the size of the our reserves are being achieved get back to me on that. and thus that the future intended capability of our Armed Forces is being delivered in full. The fact that Clause 47 agreed. this information will have to be published may also help concentrate the minds of all those directly concerned in ensuring that targets set prove to be targets achieved. Amendment 18A I beg to move. Moved by Lord Rosser 18A: After Clause 47, insert the following new Clause— Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, reserves have always “Reserve forces: publication of recruitment figures made an essential contribution to national security The Secretary of State shall publish quarterly recruitment and that contribution is set to increase, with exciting figures and trained strength numbers for reserve forces opportunities being offered not just for individuals against adjusted quarterly targets.” but for formed units. Reserves will be an integrated part of the whole force required for almost all operations, both at home and abroad. To do this, we are growing Lord Rosser: I almost feel as if I am once again our reserves to 34,900 across all three services by 2018 moving an amendment after the debate on it has and investing an additional £1.8 billion over 10 years. already taken place. Amendment 18A provides for the The Army will grow its reserves to a trained strength Secretary of State to publish quarterly recruitment of 30,000, the Royal Air Force to 1,800 and the Royal figures and trained strength numbers for Reserve Forces Navy to 3,100. This is a challenging target but one that against adjusted quarterly targets. I certainly do not we are committed to achieving. wish to speak at any great length on this amendment These requirements are challenging, but the planned but, as has already been said, there has been a significant overall numbers of trained reservists are well within change in approach by the Government to the role of historic levels. In 1997, the Territorial Army was more the reserves since the increase in reserve strength was than 50,000 strong; it was reduced to around 40,000 first announced alongside further reductions in the by 2000 and, by 2009, it was down to just 26,000. We size of our Regular Forces. At that time, the previous now have about 19,090 trained reserves. We should not Secretary of State made it clear that the reduction in be surprised if growth is neither uniform nor smooth. the size of the Regular Forces would take place only as Given the time that it takes to train reservists, trained and when the reserves had been increased. strength improvement will lag behind recruitment. That is not now the Government’s stance, which Reservists will be an integral and integrated part of has changed to saying that the reduction in the size of the whole force alongside their regular counterparts. the Regular Forces and the Army, in particular, is not The Committee will no doubt be aware that, recognising dependent on first delivering the increase in the size of the interest in the progress of reserves recruitment, the our Reserve Forces. However, the increase in the size MoD publishes the trained and untrained strength of our Reserve Forces must be for a purpose and, data for the reserves quarterly. The last figures were presumably, if we do not achieve the target that has released on 14 November and the next set of data is been set within the period set, the capability of our due to be released in the next few days. I am sure that Armed Forces as a whole will be less than it would noble Lords would agree that, with such a commitment, otherwise have been. If that is not the case, it begs the there is no need to enact legislation. question of why we are increasing the strength of our The Army is undertaking a significant number of reserves. surge activities alongside recruit partnering projects to If we can accept that our Reserve Forces will have boost reserve recruiting and grow the reserve force. an even more important role to play in the future, the The initial response to the new recruiting campaign is question of whether recruitment targets will be achieved encouraging and a number of new initiatives have is a matter of some importance. Last autumn, there been introduced. These include the revised medical were reports in the press of the Army failing to attract process, introduced in January, and the new online and recruit sufficient Army Reserve personnel, and as application forms introduced this month. Both these a result it was claimed that the Army faced an increased new major initiatives will simplify the process and are risk to its structure and operational capability. If we aimed at improving the candidates’ journey into and are falling behind in recruitment, it may take time to through the application process. I must point out that recover lost ground since it is not simply a case of the programme is still in its early stages. The White recruiting people. The people recruited have to be Paper was published only in July, and it is true there trained before they can become fully effective members have been some administrative issues in the process. of the reserves, and that takes time. However, we are working with Capita and the senior We are talking about ensuring the overall effectiveness Army leadership actively to address these issues. I of our Armed Forces and thus about our nation’s believe that we can work them through. Adjustments security. Our reserves are not simply something that is have been made to the application process to ensure nice to have if people can be recruited; they will have that we can continue to progress new recruits. Marketing an important and enhanced role to play in the future campaigns based on the new White Paper proposition as part of our overall Armed Forces strength. In view have just got under way; the latest marketing campaign of that, it does not seem unreasonable to provide in for the reserves started in early January. GC 253 Defence Reform Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Defence Reform Bill GC 254

Maritime Reserves has stabilised its numbers and is In November last year, Defence Statistics published working to ensure the retention of trained personnel the latest quarterly personnel report, which shows the already in the reserve and reduce wastage during the trained and untrained strength of the volunteer reserves training programme by tailoring the training methods on a quarterly basis. I have the tables and can send to better suit the reservist experience. Although there them to any noble Lord who would like to see them. is a slight reduction in the Royal Auxiliary Air Force’s The new offer to Army reservists will underpin the trained strength, the number in training is the highest growth required between 2014 and 2018, and it is since April 2012. The force looks likely to meet its being promoted through the recruitment campaign end-of-year target and is seeking authority to allocate launched in January this year. The reduction between extra resources to marketing in order to improve further July and September last year is not a surprise. The its recruitment rate. Recruiting activity itself is better strength of the Army Reserve is expected to fall to co-ordinated across the three services than in the past; around 18,800 by the 2013 financial year end, before this should ensure a much more joined-up approach to reversing the long-term trend with an increase by the recruiting. The new recruiting campaigns are delivered 2014 financial year end. at a regional level, following planning and guidance The requirement for an Army Reserve with a trained from a national level. We are working hard to deliver strength of 30,000 was a recommendation from the the message through internal communications within independent commission to review the United Kingdom’s other government departments that the reserves are reserve forces based on the expanded role also recruiting and to demonstrate that the Civil Service is recommended in the report. As explained in our Green taking the lead in the public sector. Paper, the total strength of the Army Reserve for 2020 is 38,000 in order to deliver 30,000 trained reservists. The additional costs of recruitment associated with The investment that we are making in our Reserve growth of the reserves are all factored into the Future Forces and the other changes detailed in the White Reserves 2020 programme. Should recruitment be slower Paper will give us greater assurance in the future that than planned, some funding earmarked for paying reservists will be trained and available when needed. personnel who were not in fact recruited could be The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the switched to increase the recruiting effort. draw-down of regulars at the same time as growing the reserves. As an organisation which recruits only at 5pm the bottom of the rank structure, recruiting remains a The recently announced redundancies are not new. priority if the correct rank/experience balance is to be They were indicated in 2010 and again in 2012. Following maintained. The Armed Forces have learnt their lessons last year’s redundancies, which were 84% voluntary, a from experience. It is very difficult to turn the recruiting fourth tranche was recently announced. Notifications tap back on having switched it off. Maintaining inflow of redundancy will be issued on 12 June 2014. The is essential to maintain future operational capability Armed Forces redundancy programme was always and, given the current operational demands, it will planned to comprise of four tranches, and this is the remain for the foreseeable future. Notwithstanding final tranche. that, the reduced size of the Armed Forces inevitably means a reduction in the number of new recruits The Army started a major recruitment campaign required. on 16 September. The latest reserves marketing campaign I hope that that answers the noble Lord’s question, began in January this year. While it is too early to be and I therefore ask him to withdraw the amendment. definitive, the early indications from this campaign are encouraging. The length of time that it takes applicants Lord Rosser: Once again, I thank the Minister for to progress through the application and training pipeline that comprehensive reply and for the information that means that it will take time for the actual impact to he has provided on the progress being made with become realised, but we are confident that we will Reserve Forces recruitment. I certainly would like to begin to deliver the required numbers of recruits to have a copy of the information to which he referred reach our target for 2018. during his reply. Those who leave the Army through redundancy are The only comment I would make is that, while it is being encouraged to consider a part-time military good to hear that the figures are being published and career in the reserves. For the Army, ex-regulars who that it is the intention to keep providing that information, enlist into the Army Reserve within three years of putting it in the Bill would ensure that that continued leaving regular service can enjoy a number of incentives to be the case in the future. Sometimes attitudes change, and benefits, such as a reduced Army Reserve commitment and it is possible that we will find that the information and training requirement or, alternatively, a commitment is no longer being provided. bonus worth £5,000, paid over four years. There is a However, I will leave it at that. I thank the Minister comprehensive information campaign to ensure that once again for his reply and I beg leave to withdraw all service leavers—not just redundees—are aware of the amendment. the opportunities and benefits of joining the reserves. Amendment 18A withdrawn. Our Reserve Forces have always attracted highly motivated individuals. The assurance that the reserves Amendment 18B will play a greater role within the whole force concept Moved by Lord Rosser will act to broaden appeal and encourage those looking 18B: After Clause 47, insert the following new Clause— for such an opportunity, as well as their employers. “Treatment of reservists GC 255 Defence Reform Bill[LORDS] Defence Reform Bill GC 256

[LORD ROSSER] Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, I have (1) Section 39 of the Equality Act 2010 (employees and considerable sympathy for the spirit of the amendments applicants) shall apply to serving and former members of the spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. There was Reserve Forces as if membership of such forces were a protected a deal of concern expressed at Second Reading over characteristic under section 4 (the protected characteristics) of that Act. the impact on civilian employment of the additional levels of readiness and the additional time involved in (2) Members of the Reserve Forces are required to disclose their membership to potential employers upon application for the new recruit programme. Trying to safeguard both employment. sides was discussed then. (3) The Secretary of State shall within one year of this Act I picked up a leaflet at the MoD a few days ago coming into force establish an employer engagement committee which under “The Employer Proposition” states: to act as an advisory body on the recruitment and retention of “We will develop an open and predictable relationship by: members of the reserve forces. ensuring that reservists notify employers of their reserve status”, (4) The Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament an with a rider that it is “subject to security considerations”. annual Report of the Employer Engagement Committee detailing That part of the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord its activities and recommendations for the Government.” Rosser, is already being dealt with. Another paragraph of the leaflet states: Lord Rosser: Amendment 18B seeks to amend the “We will introduce a new National Relationship Management scheme to establish strategic personnel relationships with major Equality Act 2010 to prevent discrimination against employer organisations, relevant trade bodies and the largest employers”. reservists in employment and in seeking employment It is essential for the success of this scheme that the by adding membership of the Reserve Forces to the Government have an ongoing dialogue with employers list of protected characteristics under the Act. The to make quite sure that their concerns are met, as well potential concerns are fairly obvious and, if they as making sure that the rights of reservists in connection materialised, would constitute a serious impediment with their employment are met. I hope that the Minister to people joining the reserves or remaining in them. will be able to reassure us that the concerns which the A clause in the Bill refers to the qualifying period of noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has raised are already being employment for unfair dismissal related to an employee’s dealt with and considered, and that safeguards have membership of a reserve force, so there is obviously been put in place by the Government. recognition that being unfairly penalised or discriminated against for this reason is a real possibility. That discrimination could also take place when being considered Lord Davies of Stamford: My noble friend’s amendment for a job, since some prospective employers might take is testimony to what I spoke about earlier—the complete the view that they did not wish to recruit someone commitment on this side of the Committee to try to purely or largely because they would be away from ensure that we successfully recruit and train the projected their job for periods of time to fulfil their commitments number of reservists. It would be intolerable if people as a member of the reserves. Discrimination could who had signed up to fight for their country were also take place against someone in the reserves already subject in some way to discrimination in the employment working for the company in question, since membership and labour markets. Discrimination because of their of the reserves and being away from the job for a sex, colour and so on is now regarded as utterly period as a result might be the sole or major factor in intolerable. My noble friend’s amendment is therefore denying them promotion to a higher-level post. The absolutely appropriate. purpose of this amendment is to reduce the likelihood I should make one final point. I think that I am of this happening but it will also give the Government, right—the Minister will know the details—in saying through the Minister, the opportunity to place on the that similar protections are available to members of record how they intend to address the potential problems the National Guard in the United States. We all know that I have identified if they feel unable to accept the that the National Guard is extremely successful at amendment. recruiting and that it has enormous public support, Amendment 18D seeks to support recruitment to including among employers, so I do not see any difficulty and retention in our reserves by ensuring that a reservist of the kind suggested by the noble Baroness whereby is entitled to be permitted by his or her employer employers might reasonably resent such a provision. to take time off during their working hours in order We all know that the National Guard in the United to undertake training activities connected to the reserve States plays a key role in the defence capability of that force, subject to the provisions laid down in the nation and is regularly deployed on operations. We amendment, and if that does not happen to be able to should be encouraged by the experience of the United present a complaint to an employment tribunal. It will States to pursue the line adopted in my noble friend’s be no help in encouraging recruitment or assisting amendment. retention if there are doubts about whether leave for training activities during working hours will be given Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, we recognise and by the reservist’s employer or, indeed, if it is to be value the contribution of reservists and need to be given only grudgingly. Once again, if the Government sure that their interests are properly protected. Part of feel unable to accept this amendment, I hope that the this is making sure that their reserve service does not Minister will be able to indicate how they see the negatively affect their employment prospects. That is concerns I have raised being addressed and satisfactorily why Clause 47 amends the Employment Rights Act 1996 resolved from the point of view of the actual or to remove the current two-year qualifying period for potential member of our future Reserve Forces. I beg claims of unfair dismissal where the reason for dismissal to move. is, or is primarily because, the individual is a reservist. GC 257 Defence Reform Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Defence Reform Bill GC 258

I should emphasise that protection is already in 5.15 pm place to ensure that reservists are not dismissed as a In relation to subsection (2) of the new clause result of any duties or liabilities that they have to proposed in Amendment 18B, individuals with protected undertake, for example as a result of being mobilised. characteristics do not need to declare these when This protection is provided by the Reserve Forces applying for jobs, so it would seem to be an unreasonable (Safeguard of Employment) Act 1985, Section 1 of request for reservists. Currently, reservists can choose which gives a reservist who is called out for reserve whether to declare their reserve status in an application service the right to apply to his or her former employer form, and this seems to work well for both individuals to be reinstated after they return from mobilised service. and employers. In addition, Section 17 of the 1985 Act makes it a criminal offence for an employer to dismiss an employee It is our policy that when in employment reservists solely or mainly by reason of any duties or liabilities must inform their employers of their reserve service, that may arise as a result of being called out. except for where a security waiver—for instance, for Northern Ireland and special forces—has been approved One key strand of the White Paper was to foster an by the chain of command. Despite this, many reservists open and honest relationship with employers. Employers have been unwilling to tell their employer of their of reservists make a greater contribution to national reserve status and so claim to be unemployed or do security than others. We understand and value the not provide accurate employer details to their chain of commitment that employers make. We have seen from command. The chain of command is also obliged to some of the evidence submitted—I am thinking write to employers informing them of their reservist particularly of that from the Confederation of British employees. Industry—that employers are wary of the introduction I acknowledge that that application has been of discrimination-type legislation, and that such an inconsistent but we are now taking action to ensure a approach would run counter to the partnership approach consistent approach. This January, commanding officers that is needed between employers and defence. CBI of reserve units wrote to their reservists’ employers to members were particularly concerned that such an outline the upcoming event in the forthcoming training approach could strain working relationships between year as part of our commitment to better inform employers and reservists. employers of training so that it can be better planned for by the employer. However, the process will still rely As part of this partnership approach we will: provide on individual reservists providing accurate and timely employers with greater awareness and predictability of information. The focus will be on ensuring the existing training and mobilisation commitments; streamline rules are communicated effectively and that senior the administrative arrangements to receive financial reservists lead by example, promoting and encouraging assistance when a reservist is mobilised; introduce compliance. additional financial incentive payments to micro, small and medium-sized enterprises; and provide appropriate Addressing subsections (3) and (4) in Amendment 18B, recognition of the contribution that these employers we have already taken steps to develop our engagement make by enhancing our existing recognition schemes. with employers and build our relationships with them. We have already introduced a corporate covenant as Subsection (1) of the proposed new clause in the framework for employers to engage with defence Amendment 18B would mean that Section 39(4) of on the full range of personnel issues, including reserve the Equality Act 2010 would apply “as if membership” service issues. We are currently setting up the national of the Reserve Forces “were a protected characteristic”. relationship management organisation to provide a Surely, membership either is or is not a protected single point of contact for the largest external stakeholders characteristic. The advice from the Government Equalities on defence personnel issues. It will establish a mechanism Office is that being a reservist would not count as a by which relationships can be managed and sustained protected characteristic as defined in the 2010 Act—in across our departmental and tri-service boundaries. other words, age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage Additionally, defence will continue to seek informed and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, independent advice from the National Employer Advisory religion or belief, and sex or sexual orientation. Board about how the MoD can most effectively gain and maintain the support of employers for Britain’s There have been occasional calls for various Reserve Forces. Our employer support helpline and characteristics to be given protected status, particularly web pages have also been updated to include a new during the preparations for the Equality Act. These employer toolkit. were mostly in relation to some form of physical appearance, ranging from extremes in individuals’ height We also have an external scrutiny group for the and weight to the way in which people may choose to Future Reserves 2020 programme to review the change dress. However, after full consideration, the list of programme and the overall health of the reserves. We protected characteristics was set as already outlined. have been discussing a government amendment to Including reserves as a protected characteristic in the require reserve associations to report annually on the Equality Act would be a disproportionate tool to state of the volunteer Reserve Forces, which will include tackle the problem and could give rise to the same an assessment of recruitment and retention. argument being deployed successfully in relation to a Turning to Amendment 18D concerning the number of the physical characteristics that I mentioned. Employment Rights Act 1996, I recognise that the This could have the result of doubling the number of noble Lord is seeking to further the experience of characteristics, which would have an increased on-cost reservists by ensuring that they have adequate time to to businesses, public authorities and the courts. complete all their training. We hope that all employers GC 259 Defence Reform Bill[LORDS] Defence Reform Bill GC 260

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] I thank my noble friend Lady Garden for her will feel able to support reservists in their employ by support, and I hope that I have satisfied the concerns permitting them to take unpaid leave for the purpose of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. in the way that this amendment envisages. However, the amendment, if carried, would have a regulatory Lord Davies of Stamford: Would the noble Lord be effect on employers and we need to look at this in a kind enough to address my point about the National slightly wider context. Guard in relation to Amendment 18B? We should One of the key strands of the White Paper was to bear in mind that any employers’ organisation—like foster an open and honest relationship with employers. any other trade association or representative body—is The amendment would run counter to the partnering always likely, when a new idea is put to it, to adopt a approach that is needed between employers and defence defensive, cautious position and focus on the difficulties. and could make employers more reluctant to employ Good government surely does not consist of abandoning reservists because of the increased legislative burden a good idea at the first hurdle. Has the MoD explored that such an amendment would impose on them. As the experience of the National Guard in this context part of this partnering approach, we will provide in the United States and, if so, could the Minister let employers with greater awareness and predictability of us know the conclusions of that study? training and mobilisation commitments. The White Paper gives an undertaking to ensure that employers Lord Astor of Hever: The noble Lord makes a very are informed about their reservists, subject to security good point about the National Guard, and I apologise requirements. if I did not refer to it in my response. This is quite a The White Paper also committed to notify employers detailed subject. I will write to the noble Lord and of their reservists’ training plans each year. The Civil copy my letter to the other noble Lords who have Service is setting an example by offering a minimum of taken part in this debate. 10 days’ additional special paid leave each year for reserve training. We invite other public and private Lord Rosser: I thank the Minister for his comprehensive sector employers to follow its lead on a voluntary reply and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, basis, without the need for additional legislation. for her comments. I also thank the Minister for setting It is worth highlighting that reserve service will out the statutory safeguards, as well as the non-statutory benefit different employers in different ways. For some, measures that have been, and are being, taken to the improved skills, experience and training of the address the issues that I have raised. If the Government individual reservist will be beneficial. For others, where find that working with employers and not going down the reservist’s military role is close to their civilian one, the statutory route does not work, I hope that they there will be more benefit from transferable skills. We will reflect again on providing legislation to protect hope that the benefits that reserve service can bring to the position of employees who are members of the an employer will outweigh any difficulties in allowing reserves, who could find themselves in a vulnerable a reservist time off for their training. position. In conclusion, it would be wrong to penalise good Having said that, I appreciate that this is a difficult employers because of bad employers, and this amendment area. It can be very difficult to prove discrimination would do just that. We want to encourage employers against somebody on the basis of membership of the to allow reservists time off for training rather than Reserve Forces, particularly if one had to seek to force them to do so by introducing further legislation. prove that there had been discrimination through, for A survey by the Federation of Small Businesses of its example, denying someone a promotion or giving members in December 2012 and January 2013 found them a lower salary increase or some other act of that that almost 40% of small businesses would consider kind. I also accept that proving discrimination on employing a reservist in the future and that 7% currently these grounds could be difficult. employ or have previously employed a reservist. Making it more onerous for employers to employ reservists I conclude by thanking the Minister for his could have the perverse effect of encouraging employers comprehensive reply, and I beg leave to withdraw the to seek means to avoid employing reservists. amendment. Finally, I believe that we are meeting, or will meet Amendment 18B withdrawn. in the near future, the intent of subsections (3) and (4) of the new clause proposed in Amendment 18B. I Amendments 18C and 18D not moved. do not believe that subsection (1) in that amendment is deliverable or desirable, and the same applies to subsection (2). I therefore ask the noble Lord to Amendment 18E withdraw the amendment. Moved by Lord Rosser While the intent of Amendment 18D is laudable, I have tried to outline the careful balancing act that we 18E: After Clause 47, insert the following new Clause— have to strike between working with employers by “Amendment of Criminal Justice Act 2003: service persons encouragement and example-setting, and legislating, In section 146 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (increase in which may have some undesirable consequences and sentences for aggravation related to disability or sexual would seem to be a disproportionate tool when there orientation, sexual orientation or transgender identity)— is a body of employers that want to work with the (a) in the title of the section, add at the end “or status as a reserves. We are engaging hard with employers so that service person”; more recognise the benefits of employing reservists. (b) after subsection (2)(a)(iii) insert “or GC 261 Defence Reform Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Defence Reform Bill GC 262

(iv) the victim being, or being presumed to be, a service permanently available in the House of Commons, person.”; probably in the Library, to inform people about any (c) after subsection (2)(b)(iii) insert “or military matters that they might have questions about. (iv) by hostility towards service people.”; and In that report, to which I refer the noble Lord, Lord (d) after subsection (6) insert— Palmer, we cited a number of cases of grievous assaults “(7) In this section “service person” means member of the perpetrated on members of the Armed Forces, and I reserve forces and any relative of a member of the reserve forces”.”. am afraid that the problem has not gone away. Over the past six years or so, there have been other incidents which the Committee will know about. I retain my Lord Rosser: Amendment 18E seeks to amend the support for this amendment. Criminal Justice Act 2003 so that physical or verbal It has one curious feature but I think I know the assault upon a member of the Reserve Forces or a explanation. It is that the protection seems to be member of their family would be classed as an aggravating designed merely for members of the Reserve Forces feature of the crime and should be reflected in the but does not currently exist for members of the Regular sentence handed down where the prosecution could Forces. I imagine that it is because including all members establish that service in the Reserve Forces was the of the Armed Forces could have been outside the motive for the assault. We know from surveys of scope of the Bill. I therefore imagine that my noble Armed Forces personnel that physical and verbal assaults friend, with whom I have not discussed this matter, on them motivated simply by the fact that they are had this in mind as a probing amendment to try to service personnel run at a surprisingly high rate. On a push the way forward to achieve what we really need, much more severe scale, we have had a recent example which is the kind of legal protection for all members of a member of our Armed Forces being murdered on of the Armed Forces—all those who wear the Queen’s our streets simply because he was a member of our uniform—who are prepared to lay down their lives for Armed Forces. the rest of us. The least we can do is to make sure that Attacks on service personnel, whether physical or they do not suffer discrimination or, in this case, verbal, are totally unacceptable, do nothing to assist violence, potentially, when they are in their home recruitment and retention, and run contrary to the country. esteem in which members of our Armed Forces are held by the overwhelming majority of the population, 5.30 pm who recognise that they are willing to put their lives on Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: My Lords, perhaps I the line in defence of our country’s people and interests. may ask for some elucidation. I accept all the points We need to do as much as we can to reduce the that the noble Lord has made about his time in the incidence of assaults, particularly at a time when we MoD and his knowledge of this subject. Obviously are seeking to recruit substantial additional numbers these incidents have happened, but do we need legislation into our reserves. I say once again that if the Government such as this to identify it or were the perpetrators of do not believe that this amendment is the best way to these actions against the service people he mentioned achieve that objective, I hope that the Minister will dealt with by the law at the time? indicate in his reply whether they regard the issue that I have raised as a real problem and, if so, what courses Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, I do not know of action they are taking or intend to take to address that I should get into the habit of answering questions it. I beg to move. across the Floor. I would love to be a Minister again but that has not happened to me so far. I shall have to Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: My Lords, I hope that wait a bit longer. However, I shall of course respond to the Minister will include in his reply what instances the noble Lord. There are the normal legal protections there have been of confusion about what a “service against assault from which he and I and every other person” should be. I would have thought that under citizen benefit. Clearly, it is a criminal offence. However, existing legislation “service person” would include all the purpose of this amendment, as I understand my the things that are included in proposed new subsection (7) noble friend, is to make it an exacerbating factor if the in the amendment. Has there been any experience that reason for the assault is that the victim is a member of “service person” has not been taken to include the the Armed Forces. That provides a special protection people mentioned here? It seems a rather worthy thing for those who might otherwise be especially vulnerable to protect people even more and make sure that they to this kind of attack. It is similar to the exacerbating are included in the criminal justice legislation, but I factor that we already have of the motive, or part of wonder whether there is reason to believe that any of the motive, for an assault being racial. We introduced this has been necessary in the past. that for a section of the community whose members might be innocent victims of gratuitous attacks which otherwise would not occur. Therefore, there is a complete Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, when in analogy there and I think it was the analogy which, 2007 I chaired the national inquiry into the national rightly, inspired my noble friend—if I may be so bold recognition of the Armed Forces, this was one as to presume to answer for him—to conceive this of the recommendations that we made. We made amendment. 40 recommendations, 38 of which, including Armed Forces Day, automatic parades for units returning Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I am sure that I from combat missions and so forth, were accepted. speak for all of us in saying that we hold the same view Two were not, and this was one of them. The other about discrimination against members of the Armed one was having an officer of the Armed Forces Forces. It is a completely unacceptable form of behaviour GC 263 Defence Reform Bill[LORDS] Defence Reform Bill GC 264

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] could be relatively straightforward in some cases, such towards the men and women who have committed as where a victim was in uniform, but far from themselves to defending this country, its people and its straightforward in other cases, such as those in which way of life, and to making sacrifices that others perhaps the victim was a relative of a member of the Reserve sometimes take for granted. Those who discriminate Forces. How are the courts to deal with a situation against service personnel, or against the wider Armed where an offence is motivated by excessive rivalry Forces community, succeed only in diminishing themselves. between different sections of the Armed Forces or, Discrimination can take many forms. Some of it is perhaps, a domestic dispute? A mandatory requirement thoughtless or uninformed—for example, when public for a higher sentence reduces the court’s ability to take services fail to take account of the special circumstances a sensible, common-sense approach to what is really in which Armed Forces personnel find themselves. going on in the circumstances it is examining. Some of it is based on myth and prejudice—a view There is a fundamental difference between offences that soldiers create trouble or are unreliable customers provoked by hostility to the work of the victim and is a misperception that we must challenge. However, offences motivated by prejudice against inherent some discrimination or abuse stems from genuine hostility characteristics, such as homophobic crime. Section 146 to members of the Armed Forces, motivated by politics of the 2003 Act is designed to help to change deep-rooted or perhaps by some unfortunate personal experience. prejudices. It would be quite wrong to suggest that It is on that narrow part of the spectrum that this such provisions were necessary in relation to the Armed amendment focuses. Forces. However, the most telling argument against The amendment would have the effect of amending this amendment is the views of the intended beneficiaries. Section 146 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which I am not aware of any general desire in the Armed lays down circumstances in which the seriousness of a Forces community for legislation of this type. The criminal offence, and thus the severity of the resulting service men and women who wear their uniforms with sentence, is increased. It provides for increased sentences pride want to be respected in and considered part of where an offender demonstrated hostility based on the their communities, and rightly so. We should not put victim’s sexual orientation, disability or transgender them in a position where they are forced to explain status, or where the offence was motivated by hostility why they require protection in law in a way not enjoyed towards persons of a particular sexual orientation, by, for example, firemen or ambulance staff. Indeed, persons who have a disability or persons who are the amendment deals only with members of the Reserve transgender. Section 145 of that Act makes similar Forces, as the noble Lord pointed out. It would not provision in respect of “racially or religiously aggravated” extend to members of the Regular Forces, meaning offences. that rather than helping create the whole force which we seek the amendment would separate out members The amendment would provide for increased sentences of the Reserve Forces for different treatment in law. I where an offender demonstrated hostility based on the am not sure whether they would wish to see that in this victim being a, context. “member of the reserve forces”, None of this means that the Government are or indeed, complacent about discrimination against service personnel: “any relative of a member of the reserve forces”. quite the opposite. The Armed Forces covenant has a It would also provide for increased sentences where an high profile across the whole of Whitehall and beyond. offence was motivated by hostility towards members The first principle, that members of the Armed Forces of the Reserve Forces. community should not suffer disadvantage as a result of that membership, has given rise to many initiatives It is important that we are clear about what the which are making a real, practical difference. In the amendment would not do. It would not cover situations first statutory annual report on the Armed Forces such as a refusal to admit members of the Armed covenant, published in December 2012, we described Forces to a hotel or bar. Such situations have led to what we were doing to make these principles a reality. widespread public indignation but they generally do We are working to remove the disadvantage that the not involve a criminal offence. children of service personnel can face in the schools The Government’s view is that there is no need for a system as a result of their mobility through the admissions change in the law on these lines. The courts already code and the service pupil premium. We are ensuring have a wide power in sentencing to take into account that service personnel and leavers encounter a level factors that make conduct more serious. Criminal acts playing field in access to social housing or Government- based on irrational hostility to a person because he or funded home ownership schemes. she is in the Reserve Forces may lead to a higher At the same time, we are working to build the links sentence in any event. I am not aware of any evidence between the Armed Forces community and the wider of courts finding that they have insufficient powers to community to improve the knowledge and understanding give an appropriate sentence to an offender in such that must be at the centre of that relationship. From circumstances, or that we have received representations knowledge flows the esteem for our service men and from the courts asking us to amend the law in this way. women that is ultimately the most powerful way to In contrast, converting the flexibility that the courts counter discrimination. The community covenant has currently have into a mandatory requirement, as the now been signed in nearly 400 local authority areas, amendment proposes, may present practical difficulties. from Cornwall to the north of Scotland, and around For example, demonstrating to a court that the aggravating 60 companies have signed up to the new corporate factor was present and should be taken into consideration covenant, signifying a real determination to strengthen GC 265 Defence Reform Bill[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Defence Reform Bill GC 266 ties with the Armed Forces. I am confident that it will subsection (7) in the amendment seems to be drafted continue to gain further support. The grant scheme to enable debate in this Committee otherwise it would linked to the community covenant has allowed us to be out of scope, as it was judged to be in the House of back a range of schemes that will help to put these Commons. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked about declarations into practice. To that, we can now add the legal protection. Legal protection for all Armed Forces £35 million fund created as a result of the LIBOR personnel would be out of scope in this Bill. fines, which will support charities with projects to help I hope that I have answered all the noble Lord’s the Armed Forces and their families. concerns and I urge him to withdraw his amendment. This is not an entirely new proposal. Thomas Docherty MP previously raised this issue in a Private Member’s Lord Rosser: I thank my noble friend Lord Davies Bill and has another for consideration this year, with for his contribution and support and also the noble its Second Reading having been scheduled for 24 January. Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill for his contribution. The debate was adjourned and is expected to resume The Minister has once again done us the courtesy of on 28 February. The previous Government, in response giving us a very full and comprehensive response to to a similar recommendation in the 2008 report from the amendment, setting out the Government’s position. the then Member for Grantham and Stamford, now I am slightly disappointed with the reply, although I the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, said, do not want to suggest that I had imagined the Minister “we do not think that a change in the law is necessary or would say that the Government would accept the appropriate.” amendment. As a result of the Armed Forces Act 2011, we have The Minister made reference to ambulance staff a new vehicle at our disposal in the form of an annual not having this kind of protection. That may be true in report to Parliament—effectively a report on the England and Wales, but I do not think that it is true state of the Armed Forces covenant. In February of in Scotland, where I believe it is offered to members of last year, my right honourable friend, the member the emergency services. If I am proved wrong in saying for Rayleigh and Wickford, the Minister of State for that, I shall of course apologise. However, I think the Armed Forces, indicated that the question of there is a wider scope in Scotland which goes beyond discrimination would be a legitimate issue for the next the police. In England and Wales, that kind of protection report at the end of 2013. The report, published on is there in respect of the police but does not extend 16 December 2013, said: beyond that. “Our view is that, in the last year or so, the extent of public I would like to reflect on what the Minister has said knowledge and sympathy for the Armed Forces has continued to before deciding whether to pursue this at a further grow—aided by the Community Covenant and the new Corporate stage and in discussions on the Bill. In the meantime, Covenant. We therefore continue to believe that education, rather I thank him again for his comprehensive reply, which I than legislation, is the key to eradicating the kind of behaviour that we all abhor”. appreciate, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. In answer to the question from my noble friend Amendment 18E withdrawn. Lord Palmer about what instances there have been of service personnel not taken to include those in the Amendment 18F not moved. amendment, we recognise a service person as a regular or reserve member of the Armed Forces. Proposed Committee adjourned at 5.44 pm.

WS 47 Written Statements[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Statements WS 48

The Act enables amendments to the Transmission Written Statements Licence and the Balancing and Settlement Code (BSC) to allow ELEXON Ltd to undertake settlement functions Tuesday 11 February 2014 for EMR. To ensure these functions can be discharged effectively and on time, ELEXON Ltd has begun Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and preparatory work to put in place the necessary Policing Bill arrangements. ELEXON’s existing role, expertise and experience Statement will help ensure that settlement systems are delivered in a manner that reduces administrative burdens for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home suppliers, for generators, the CfD Counterparty and Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My hon Capacity Market Settlement Body – thereby reducing Friend the Minister of State for Crime Prevention costs to consumers. (Norman Baker) has today made the following Written Reflecting the critical nature of this preparatory Ministerial Statement: work, I am writing to inform you of a Departmental Currently Schedule 7 to the Government of Wales Minute which will be presented to Parliament today, Act 2006 includes an exception to the National Assembly’s giving notice of a contingent liability for the issuing of competence in relation to ‘anti-social behaviour orders’. indemnity provisions to ELEXON Ltd for actions it As a result, an amendment to Schedule 7 to that Act is undertakes during the settlement system set-up phase. necessary to ensure the exception’s continuing operation We believe it appropriate to offer an indemnity for following the reforms made in this Bill. claims that could arise. This is because ELEXON Ltd In line with the devolution settlement, this amendment is a company that operates on a not-for-profit basis should have the same scope as the current exception. and is funded by parties to the BSC. In the absence of Criminal justice is not devolved to the Assembly but an indemnity, any costs would need to be passed on to the exception is necessary to make clear that in legislating the parties to the BSC. As this group is not identical to about social welfare or any other transferred subject, EMR participants, passing on costs to BSC parties the Assembly does not have the competence to make would not be appropriate. provision for orders equivalent to those first created The indemnity would cover costs over and above by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. As this Bill those reclaimed by ELEXON Ltd from insurers or abolishes these orders and repeals the relevant sections through contractual arrangements with their service of the 1998 Act (amongst other things) an amendment providers. The indemnity would not extend to any to the exception was also necessary as a consequence. losses arising where ELEXON Ltd is shown to have The amendment maintains the existing scope by relating been wilfully negligent or for claims brought by employees only to orders that deal with the kinds of behaviour of ELEXON Ltd. that could have been restricted under the existing We judge the likelihood of the indemnity being regime and which we would reasonably regard as part invoked against the Department to be low. It is not of the criminal justice system. possible to provide a meaningful assessment of the In the Government’s evidence to the Silk Commission scale of the potential liability. in March this year, we highlighted that there was some confusion as to how the current exception should be interpreted. Since submitting that evidence, we have concluded that the exception should be interpreted Hong Kong narrowly, to mean the subject matter of orders under Statement the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. The amendment is designed to reflect that conclusion. The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Energy: ELEXON Ltd and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My right Honourable Statement Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (William Hague), has made the following written The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Ministerial statement: of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma) (Con): The latest report on the implementation of the Sino- My right honourable friend the Minister of State for British Joint Declaration on Hong Kong was published Energy (Michael Fallon MP) has made the following today. Copies have been placed in the Library of the Written Ministerial Statement. House. A copy of the report is also available on the The Energy Act 2013 makes provision for Electricity Foreign and Commonwealth Office website (www.gov. Market Reform (EMR) measures which are intended uk/government/organisations/foreign-commonwealth to ensure sufficient investment comes forward to replace -office). The report covers the period from 1 July to old generation plant with new low carbon generation. 31 December 2013. I commend the report to the House.

WA 107 Written Answers[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Answers WA 108

Earl Howe: The Government is not aware of any Written Answers plans to conduct research on United Kingdom heart patients using genetically modified tomatoes. Tuesday 11 February 2014 If such products were to be marketed in the UK, they would first need to be evaluated and authorised under European Union Regulation 1829/2003 on Agriculture: Genetically Modified Crops genetically modified food and feed. The definition of Questions ″medicinal product″ does not apply to nutritionally- enhanced foods such as this genetically modified tomato, Asked by The Countess of Mar which has been developed to produce a high level of anthocyanins. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the genetically modified purple tomato juice to be used Asked by The Countess of Mar in a clinical trial on United Kingdom heart patients has been tested for toxicity in accordance with To ask Her Majesty’s Government who will be European Union regulations, in addition to the funding the trial of genetically modified purple small-scale test on mice performed in Italy.[HL5004] tomato pulp on United Kingdom heart patients; in what establishment it will take place; and who are the principal investigators. [HL5009] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): No application has been Earl Howe: The Government is not aware of any made for the authorisation of genetically modified plans to conduct a trial on United Kingdom heart purple tomatoes or for their cultivation. The Government patients using genetically modified tomatoes. therefore does not hold any information on the composition or properties of these plants or on any toxicity tests that have been carried out on the juice Apprenticeships from such tomatoes. Question Asked by The Countess of Mar Asked by Lord German To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what expenditure Ti-plasmid transgene cassette of genetically modified from the Department for Work and Pensions budget purple tomatoes contains a kanamycin resistance goes toward funding apprenticeships in Wales. gene; and whether there are any antibiotic resistance [HL5027] genes remaining in the plants or fruit to be used for human trials. [HL5005] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con): The Earl Howe: No application has been made for the Department do not fund any external apprenticeships. authorisation of genetically modified purple tomatoes Currently in Wales, the Department has 14 internal or for their cultivation. The Government therefore apprentices at a cost of just over £270k. does not hold any information on the composition or properties of these plants, including the possible presence of antibiotic resistance genes. Asylum Seekers Asked by The Countess of Mar Questions Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether mRNA (transcriptome) analysis has been used to assess the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps possibility that genes other than the target genes for they are taking to clear the backlog of asylum anthocyanin synthesis in genetically modified purple applications; and what progress has been made. tomatoes would have been turned on by the two [HL5234] transcription factors; and, if so, what were the results. [HL5006] Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con): Progress is underway to clear the backlog of asylum claims. In 2012/13, Earl Howe: No application has been made for the 54 per cent of initial decisions were taken within authorisation of genetically modified purple tomatoes 30 days of claiming and 78 per cent within six months. or for their cultivation. The Government therefore Sometimes cases will take longer than six months does not hold any information on the composition or for an initial decision for reasons beyond our control, properties of these plants. e.g. when we await expert medical reports or where there are issues relating to national security. But we do Asked by The Countess of Mar accept that we should be taking well over 90 per cent To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the of initial decisions within six months in straightforward genetically modified purple tomato pulp to be used cases. experimentally on United Kingdom heart patients We are currently reviewing our caseworker productivity will be imported from Canada as a food or a targets and the customer service standards that apply medicinal product. [HL5008] in asylum cases—as part of UK Visas and Immigration’s WA 109 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 110

(UKVI) more general review of its customer service The UK believes that the true mark of a mature, standards. We have also completed a recruitment campaign functioning democracy is peaceful elections that express for both asylum caseworkers and administrative staff. the genuine will of the voters. We therefore encourage For context, it should also be noted that asylum all political parties to work together to strengthen intake is rising, and this is bound to put pressure on democratic accountability as an urgent priority and to the system. Intake in the year to June 2013 was 18 per build the willingness and capacity to hold future cent higher than year to June 2012 and in the year to participatory elections without the fear of intimidation September 2013 it was 14 per cent higher. It is likely or reprisals. that by April 2014 intake will be around 30 per cent higher than it was in 2010. BBC Trust A further obstacle lies in the fact that many claims are unfounded. While some claimants will have a Question genuine fear of persecution, others are simply seeking Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon to use the system to stay in the UK. This is an issue not just at the decision stage but also after refusal and To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to appeal. Much casework effort goes into dealing with the Written Answer by Lord Gardiner of Kimble further submissions, after appeal rights are exhausted, on 23 January (WA 151), whether they intend to and in removing barriers to removal in the case of facilitate a pre-appointment hearing with the relevant failed asylum seekers. This can impact on the time we House of Lords select committee for the next Chairman take on initial decisions, to the detriment, potentially, of the BBC Trust. [HL5000] of genuine asylum claimants. Asked by Lord Naseby Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): There are no plans to hold a pre-appointment scrutiny hearing for the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many chosen Chair of the BBC Trust before the relevant Sri Lankan Tamils were granted asylum in the Lords Select Committee. However, DCMS is required United Kingdom in each of the years 2006, 2007, to offer a pre-appointment scrutiny hearing before the 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013. [HL5245] relevant House of Commons committee, which in this case would be the Culture, Media and Sport Select Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Unfortunately we are Committee. unable to provide information detailing how many Sri Lankan Tamils were granted asylum in each year between 2006 and 2013. This is because the Home Civil Nuclear Police Federation Office’s Central Information Database (CID) does not Question distinguish by ethnic group—only nationality. This Information is only held within paper case files, which Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon would mean this question could only be answered through a disproportionately expensive manual case To ask Her Majesty’s Government when Ministers search. last met representatives of the Civil Nuclear Police Federation; and when they next intend to do so. Details on the number or Sri Lankan’s granted [HL5213] asylum can, however, be found on the UK.Gov site (link below). The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma) (Con): immigration-statistics-january-to-march-2013/ DECC Ministers last met representatives of the Civil immigration-statistics-january-to-march- Nuclear Police Federation on 18th December 2013. 2013#asylum-1 There are currently no confirmed dates for a further meeting. Bangladesh Question Copyright Asked by Lord Hylton Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Asked by Baroness Thomas of Winchester they have made of the conduct and results of the recent elections in Bangladesh. [HL5280] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan to defer their plans for an exception to copyright The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities for private copying in order to take account of the and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth outcome of the Copydan Båndkopi case at the Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): As I noted in my statement European Court of Justice. [HL5294] of 6 January the election was called in accordance with Bangladesh’s constitution. But like others in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department international community the UK is disappointed that for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger voters in more than half the constituencies did not of Leckie) (Con): The Government considers that its have the opportunity to express their will at the ballot plans to introduce a narrow exception to copyright for box and that turnout in most other constituencies was private copying are consistent with EU law, and does low. not intend to delay their implementation. WA 111 Written Answers[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Answers WA 112

Credit Unions Deregulation Bill Question Question Asked by Lord Patten Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have included in their rights of way reforms in they have made of the Church Urban Fund’s report the Deregulation Bill to enable local authorities Money Speaks Louder than Words: credit unions retrospectively to reject outstanding applications and the role of the Church in tackling financial that have not yet resulted in an order and that do exclusion in the light of the Department of Work not meet any new prescribed standards introduced and Pensions’ statement that to become sustainable, in that Bill. [HL5271] the credit union sector needs to grow from one to two million members in the next five to seven years. [HL5270] Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): Provisions in the Deregulation Bill implement a Stakeholder Working Group recommendation for a preliminary assessment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department by the local authority of every application for a public for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con): The right of way, and authorities will be able to reject Department welcomes the report and shares the desire without further consideration any applications that do to see credit unions grow and become sustainable. not meet a prescribed standard. Government has committed investment of up to £38 million in credit unions—to increase access to In addition there is provision in the Bill for certain affordable credit for at least 1 million more people and of the rights of way measures to be applied to applications save consumers up to £1 billion in loan repayments by that have not yet resulted in an order. The preliminary March 2019. assessment and the ability of local authorities to reject applications that do not meet the prescribed standard The report reflects many of the findings of DWP’s are included in those measures. Feasibility Study, particularly around raising awareness of the services credit unions can offer. We are currently working with the Church of England on ways to support individual credit unions, raise awareness and Dominican Republic increase membership. Questions Asked by Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Cyprus and Northern Cyprus To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Baroness Warsi on 8 November Question 2013 (WA 82), what specific discussions the British Ambassador to the Dominican Republic and Haiti Asked by Lord Sharkey has had with the government of the Dominican To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Republic regarding the impact of the ruling of the they have had with representatives of the Turkish Constitutional Court of the Dominican Republic community in Northern Cyprus prior to the recent on 23 September 2013 concerning the human rights agreement with the government of the Republic of of Dominicans of Haitian ancestry in that country. Cyprus relating to the regulation of development in [HL5162] the Sovereign Base Areas; what were the outcomes of those discussions; when they took place; and The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities with which representatives they had those discussions. and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth [HL5180] Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Our Ambassador to the Dominican Republic has had several discussions The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities with the Government of the Dominican Republic and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth regarding the impact of the Constitutional Court ruling, Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Arrangement was both bilaterally and together with his EU counterparts. concluded following negotiations between the This has included meetings with the President, Acting Governments of the UK and the Republic of Cyprus. Foreign Minister, the President of the Electoral Community representatives were not involved in those Commission and officials from the Ministry of Foreign negotiations. The Sovereign Base Areas (SBA) Affairs and Immigration Services. Administration is now consulting community Asked by Lord Griffiths of Burry Port representatives, including Turkish Cypriots, on the implementation of the Arrangement. We are confident To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to that these arrangements safeguard the interests of all the Written Answer by Baroness Warsi on 8 November land-owners; for example, they will be able to feed in 2013 (WA 82), what assessment they have made of any local concerns before the zoning process begins. the impact that the ruling of the Constitutional The SBA Administration will also be taking into Court of the Dominican Republic on 23 September account the particular circumstances that affect Turkish 2013 regarding the right to nationality will have on Cypriot residents in the Eastern SBA. Dominicans of Haitian ancestry; and what assessment WA 113 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 114

they have made of the risk that Dominicans of with organisations operating in the medicines supply Haitian ancestry might be left in a position of chain to help ensure that patients get the medicines statelessness. [HL5163] they need. The Group has published best practice guidance on the efficient supply and distribution of Baroness Warsi: The British Government, along medicines. The aim of all parties is that, under normal with our EU partners, has expressed concern to the circumstances, pharmacies should receive medicines Government of the Dominican Republic over the within 24 hours. potential impact of the Constitutional Court ruling on many people of foreign, primarily Haitian, descent living in the Dominican Republic. Although people of Egypt Haitian descent affected by the ruling may have a right Question to Haitian nationality, the challenges of exercising that right could create a situation in which they may Asked by Lord Storey be considered, de facto, stateless. We therefore welcome President Medina’s commitment to finding a ‘human To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, on solution’ that will avoid situations of statelessness, their next delegation to Cairo, they will raise concerns including through the introduction of a naturalisation about the imprisonment of journalists and specifically law for those affected by the ruling. We continue to the case of Hossam Meneai; and, if so, whether follow the situation closely and are engaging with the they will also make representations to the government Dominican government through our Embassy in Santo of Egypt as to Mr Menaei’s release. [HL5197] Domingo. The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Drugs: Prescription Medicines Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The UK government is Questions concerned by the deterioration in Egyptian media freedom including the recent charges against Al Jazeera Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough journalists. In a statement on 6 February the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) have been taken to ensure all pharmacies in England (Mr Hague) said: and Wales have access to adequate supplies of medicines for prescribed use to patients. [HL5067] “The UK believes a free and robust press is the bedrock of democracy. I urge the Egyptian interim To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment government to demonstrate its commitment to an they have made of the ability of independent inclusive political process which allows for full freedom pharmacies to compete with larger organisations in of expression and for journalists to operate without the supply of prescription medicines, particularly in the fear of persecution.” respect of their ability to bulk-buy. [HL5078] Our ambassador in Egypt has raised freedom of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment expression in his meetings with the Egyptian Deputy they have made of the impact of parallel exporting Foreign Minister. We will continue to urge the Egyptian of prescription medicines on public health in the authorities to support media freedom, and raise the United Kingdom; and what steps they are taking to treatment of journalists, such as Mr Menaei. rectify any problems they have identified. [HL5079]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Elderly People: Care of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): There is a well established Question United Kingdom wide network of wholesalers and distributors who deliver medicines to community Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick pharmacies on a daily basis. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps European medicines legislation specifically requires they are taking to ensure that elderly people will be that the person who holds an authorisation to market treated in accordance with the Human Rights Act 1998 a medicine and the relevant distributor of a medicinal and receive the necessary care. [HL4919] product must ensure appropriate and continued supply of the product to pharmacies and other authorised suppliers, in order to meet patients’ needs. (Article 81 The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord of European Directive 2001/83). Therefore both Faulks) (Con): The Care Bill consolidates existing care independent and larger organisations should have and support legislation into a single, unified, modern equitable access to medicines. statute and refocuses the law on the person, rather We are aware that delays in supply can sometimes than the service. It also introduces a new adult arise due to parallel exporting of UK medicines. However safeguarding framework. most companies whose products are affected have The Bill will give the Care Quality Commission introduced systems of allocating supplies and other (CQC) the ability to tackle problems with the quality contingency arrangements to ensure that UK patients of care more effectively. It also strengthens existing have access to them. As a member of the Supply regulatory powers to assist the CQC in ensuring Chain Group, the Department is continuing to work appropriate standards of care. WA 115 Written Answers[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Answers WA 116

The CQC is already bound by the Human Rights The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Act, which has a general obligation to ensure appropriate for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): We expect all new standards of care, equivalent to the standards within job seeker’s allowance and UC claimants to have a the European Convention on Human Rights. The level of English which enables them to compete and be CQC’s obligations relate to all individuals who receive successful in the UK labour market. regulated care and support and not just those whose To enable new claimants to fulfil their obligations care is publicly arranged. under the Claimant Commitment and the requirement However, this does not mean that, in the instances to be available for and actively seeking work, this when care falls below such standards, the Human means being able to speak some English. Rights Act is always the appropriate means by which From April 2014 JSA and UC (full conditionality) to seek redress. The CQC has powers to do this claimants will have their English language skills tested. through monitoring and reviews and subsequent civil Where ability falls below Entry Level 2, they will be or criminal action if necessary. In addition, the State required to attend training. has powers through the criminal justice system and the individual has avenues of redress in contract and tort law. Environment: Rights of Way Questions Employment: Commonwealth Asked by Lord Patten Professionals To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they Question intend to implement the 2026 cut-off for recording historical public rights of way, introduced by the Asked by Lord Ashcroft Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000. [HL5227] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to easing the requirements The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for professionals from Commonwealth countries to for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De be able to live and work in the United Kingdom. Mauley) (Con): We are currently working on a package [HL5223] of reforms to rights of way legislation, developed by a Stakeholder Working Group, which we believe will bring benefits to all involved in public rights of way. Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con): Commonwealth The first of the Working Group’s recommendations is professionals already benefit from a variety of routes that the 2026 cut-off provisions should be implemented. to work in the UK. The Group’s report makes it clear that their agreement Like all non-EEA nationals, Commonwealth nationals is contingent on the whole package of proposals described may apply to work in the UK if they have a graduate in the report being implemented. level job from a licensed Sponsor, who has been unable We are progressing implementation of those proposals to fill that job from the resident labour market. that require primary legislation through the Deregulation Over 27,000 UK employers are licensed Sponsors Bill, with a view to delivering the whole package and in the year ending September 2013, we issued during the lifetime of this Parliament. This would 64,414 visas to Commonwealth nationals to work in include commencement of the cut-off provisions. the UK. Asked by Lord Patten In addition to the usual visa routes, the UK Ancestry route allows Commonwealth citizens with a UK-born To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals grandparent to come to work in the UK. they have included in their rights of way reforms in Some Commonwealth countries (Canada, Australia the Deregulation Bill to ensure that landowners are and New Zealand) also benefit from the reciprocal informed about any applications to have a public Youth Mobility Scheme which allows young people right of way recorded that would affect their land. (aged 18-30) from participating countries to experience [HL5228] life and work in the UK. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals The Government does not plan to make significant they have included in their rights of way reforms in changes to these arrangements, although we regularly the Deregulation Bill to ensure that applications to keep them under review. have a public right of way recorded are dealt with promptly. [HL5229]

Employment: Migrants Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): Provisions in the Deregulation Bill implement a Stakeholder Working Question Group recommendation that it should be the local Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick authority and not the applicant that approaches landowners and occupiers. The authority will be required To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans to notify every owner and occupier of any land to they have to increase employment opportunities for which the application relates, stating that an application migrants who cannot speak English. [HL5124] has been made and the authority is considering it. WA 117 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 118

Guidance will require authorities to informally explain to ensure that whatever new arrangements are established to landowners and occupiers, at an early stage the work for those outside the Eurozone as well as for process, how the case will be dealt with. those within it, and protect the integrity of the Single This will be only where the application is good Market. We would consider any formal proposal in enough to pass a preliminary assessment by the local line with this. authority. Authorities will be able to reject without further consideration any applications that do not meet a prescribed standard. Finance: Loans Another recommendation is for a right to appeal to Question the magistrates’ court for anyone who has made an Asked by Lord Myners application to record a public right of way, where the local authority has not decided the application within To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether 12 months of receiving it. regulators have been alerted to any cases of alleged The magistrates’ court may direct the authority to mis-selling by banks of loans under the Enterprise take certain steps in relation to the application within Finance Guarantee scheme. [HL5185] a reasonable period. This right of application to the magistrates’ court will also be available to any landowner The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department or occupier to which the application relates. It will not for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger be available where the authority has already used its of Leckie) (Con): Regulators have not advised the new power to reject the application after a preliminary Department for Business Innovation and Skills (BIS) assessment. that they have received any allegations. The Enterprise Finance Guarantee (EFG) scheme Equality provides a guarantee to banks and other lenders to Question enable them to provide finance in cases which they would otherwise decline due to the borrower having Asked by Lord Ouseley insufficient security. The loan is provided according to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment the lender’s standard terms of business and the borrower they have made of current levels of discriminatory is required to sign a declaration confirming that they treatment of people on the grounds of race, ethnicity, understand that the presence of the EFG guarantee religion, disability, and sexuality in the United does not remove or reduce their liability for the debt. Kingdom; and what action they are taking in The recent allegations of “mis-selling” of the scheme response. [HL4756] appear to relate to disputes between small business borrowers and their banks regarding the structuring Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): The Equality and of their borrowings and the treatment of outstanding Human Rights Commission (EHRC) is Great Britain’s debts following the businesses ceasing to trade. National Equality Body with a statutory remit to promote and monitor human rights, and to protect, enforce and promote equality. The EHRC has a duty Flooding to monitor progress in society at least every 5 years Questions against the aims of the equalities and human rights duties set out in the Equality Act 2006, and in doing Asked by Lord Patten so, to consult with relevant persons. The Commission’s first report—“How Fair Is Britain?” was published in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their 2010 and is available through the following link— assessment of the volume of raw sewage entering http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/key-projects/ the flood-waters on the Somerset Levels and the how-fair-is-britain/full-report-and-evidence- effects on (1) public health, and (2) the environment downloads/ or in the Libraries of both Houses. The and ecology of the area. [HL5043] next review is due in 2015. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Eurozone for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Question Mauley) (Con): No assessment of the volume of raw sewage entering the Somerset Levels has been undertaken. Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Where there is raw sewage entering floodwaters the diluting and dispersing of potential sources of infection To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their by flood water significantly reduces any risk. assessment of the call by the German Finance Minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, for a Eurozone There are no high risk enteric infectious diseases parliament. [HL5201] naturally endemic in the human population of the UK (e.g. cholera, typhoid); and the relative risks to people The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities from bacterial contamination of flood water is therefore and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth low, especially if public health advice is followed. Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The UK has always I understand that Somerset County Council in been clear that the Eurozone must have the right conjunction with others locally, including Wessex Water, governance and structures to address its current challenges has made sure that water sampling is being undertaken and to secure its long-term stability. However, we need in affected areas to identify any possible public health WA 119 Written Answers[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Answers WA 120 risk. Locally they have convened a Scientific, Technical The impacts of standing water on farming may also be Advisory Committee to ensure that any necessary considered as part of the plan. mitigation measures that are put in place are coordinated and shared with all local partners. With regard to the environment and the ecology, Gambling the nature conservation sites on the Somerset Levels Questions and Moors are routinely flooded in winter and recover naturally. The effect of the current extreme event is Asked by Baroness Jones of Whitchurch unlikely to have any significant additional long-term To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they effects. are receiving full co-operation from the gambling Winter floodwaters would normally carry a nutrient industry in their study into the impact of fixed-odds load. Nutrient pollution can have an impact on wildlife betting terminals in high-street betting shops. and habitats on the Levels. The major source of nutrients [HL5135] under normal conditions is treated sewage effluent and other inputs coming from diffuse water pollution Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): The Minister for from agriculture. These sources of pollution are being Sport, Tourism and Equalities has required full addressed by water industry water quality schemes co-operation from the betting industry to understand and initiatives such as Catchment Sensitive Farming. the impact of category B2 gaming machines in high-street betting shops. The Government has made it clear that Asked by Lord Patten if the existing knowledge gaps in relation to these To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment machines cannot be closed the case for precautionary has been made by their scientific advisers of the measures is significantly stronger. long-term impact on farming of standing water in Asked by Baroness Jones of Whitchurch the Somerset Levels. [HL5044] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to review the pre-watershed advertising Lord De Mauley: There has been no direct assessment of bingo websites. [HL5136] of the long-term impact on farming of standing water in the Somerset Levels. However, there have been a Lord Gardiner of Kimble: The Government is working number of pieces of research funded by Defra and the closely with the Gambling Commission, the Advertising Environment Agency to assess the impact of flooding Standards Authority and Ofcom to consider the growth on agriculture, particularly following the floods of and audience of remote gambling advertising on television, 2007. These include:- including online bingo, and what impact it may be having on the licensing objectives of the Gambling - A study of the impacts of Summer 2007 floods on Act. agriculture in England, jointly funded by the Economic and Social Research Council, Environment Agency Gaza and Commission for Rural Communities, was undertaken by Cranfield University following the floods in 2007. Questions A summary of the study can be found at: Asked by Lord Turnberg http://tmm.codecircus.co.uk/assets/764/ To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they ImpactOfFlood_FINAL.pdf have had discussions with the Palestinian Authority - A study, prepared for Defra by ADAS Boxworth, about the delays imposed by its Ministry of Health considered the Impact of 2007 Summer floods on on the transfer of medical supplies to Gaza. agriculture. This was published in December 2009 and [HL5058] a copy can be found here: Baroness Northover (LD): Although we are aware http://archive.defra.gov.uk/evidence/economics/ that there have been delays, we do not believe that any foodfarm/reports/documents/ such delays can be said to have been imposed by the Impactofsummerfloods.pdf Ministry of Health. Defra is currently funding a project looking at the Asked by Baroness Tonge impact of prolonged waterlogging on soil function based on the wet summer of 2012 and winter of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what immediate 2012/2013. This will be reporting in April, though it action they have discussed with the government of does not focus specifically on the situation in Somerset. Israel and the European Union in order to get Details of the project can be found here at:- drinking water to the inhabitants of Gaza. [HL5087] http://randd.defra.gov.uk/ Baroness Northover: DfID regularly raises with our Default.aspx?Menu=Menu&Module=More&Location= Israeli and EU counterparts the importance of providing None&ProjectID=18794&FromSearch=Y&Publisher=1& access to clean drinking water for the inhabitants of SearchText=sp1316&SortString=ProjectCode&SortOrder Gaza. We work closely with the EU to monitor and =Asc&Paging=10#Description assess humanitarian needs in Gaza, including access An action plan for the sustainable future of the to drinking water. The EU is currently supporting Moors and Levels is currently being developed by water and sanitation programmes in Gaza and discussions Defra, in partnership with local organisations in Somerset, are ongoing regarding the construction of a desalination the Environment Agency, Natural England and Other plant, the viability of which will be determined by a Government Departments over the next six weeks. sustainable power supply. The UK recently agreed to WA 121 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 122 provide a further £10 million of support to the contain asbestos are systematically informed of that International Committee of the Red Cross, which fact, and of the outcome of the regular inspections includes improving access to clean water for over undertaken of such premises. [HL5266] 60,000 people, including through building wastewater plants in Gaza. Lord Wigley (PC): Occupants of service family Asked by Baroness Tonge accommodation are entitled to see asbestos reports relating to their homes and may request these at any To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action time. However these reports are not automatically they intend to take to encourage accountability in made available to occupants. Gaza; and whether they support the trial in international courts of soldiers and militants on both sides suspected of violations of international law. [HL5089] Health: Mesothelioma Questions The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The UK supports accountability for violations of international humanitarian To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the law. In this context we have repeatedly pressed Israel statistical breakdown of the occupations of the to implement the recommendations set out in the 2,200 British citizens who are reported to die annually Turkel Commission’s report on “Israel’s Mechanisms from mesothelioma. [HL5095] for Examining and Investigating Complaints and Claims of Violations of the Laws of Armed Conflict According to International Law”. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con): The latest Asked by Lord Hylton available analysis of citizens dying from Mesothelioma To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions in Great Britain is based on deaths between 2002 and they have had, or plan to have, with the government 2010 at ages 16-74. Only the last occupation of the of Israel about allowing into Gaza building materials deceased is routinely recorded. to complete United Nations Relief and Works Agency Observed deaths are shown in the table below for for Palestine Refugees in the Near East projects all occupation groups with more than 20 deaths observed. which have been approved by the Israeli Coordinator It is important to note that, for those Mesothelioma of Government Activities in the Territories.[HL5104] cases that were caused by occupational exposure, the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans last occupation of the deceased which is recorded on they have to organise a demarche from all states the death certificate may not reflect the source of contributing to the United Nations Relief and Works exposure due to the long latency of the disease. Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) to the government of Israel concerning Table 1: Number of mesothelioma deaths for males aged 16-74 in Great (1) the rate of approval of new projects in the Gaza Britain 2002-2010 Strip by the Israeli Coordinator of Government Occupation description (for occupations with Activities in the Territories, (2) the costs incurred at least 20 deaths observed) Observed Deaths by UNRWA when importing materials into Gaza, Production, works & maintenance managers 113 and (3) whether UNRWA should receive any Managers in construction 128 reimbursement from the government of Israel of Marketing & sales managers 87 costs incurred while importing materials into Gaza. Financial institution managers 27 [HL5105] Transport & distribution managers 30 Baroness Northover: We are deeply concerned by Storage & warehouse managers 23 the detrimental effect that restrictions on access of Retail & wholesale managers 25 construction materials into Gaza are having on the Publicans & managers of licensed premises 25 local populace. The November meeting of the Advisory Property, housing & land managers 31 Commission of UNRWA highlighted the issue of the Shopkeepers & wholesale/retail dealers 69 cost and availability of construction materials for Managers & proprietors in other services 184 international projects in Gaza. We regularly urge the n.e.c. Israeli Government to ease restrictions on construction Civil engineers 36 materials for both international projects and the private Mechanical engineers 38 sector. Design & development engineers 27 Planning & quality control engineers 25 Engineering professionals n.e.c. 28 Government Departments: Asbestos Further education teaching professionals 35 Question Secondary education teaching professionals 58 Asked by Lord Wigley Chartered surveyors (not quantity surveyors) 47 Science & engineering technicians n.e.c. 44 To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Draughtspersons 45 the Written Answer by Lord Astor of Hever on 4 February (WA 30–1), whether the occupants of NCOs & other ranks 48 Service Families’ Accommodation that is known to Police officers (sergeant & below) 46 WA 123 Written Answers[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Answers WA 124

Table 1: Number of mesothelioma deaths for males aged 16-74 in Great Table 1: Number of mesothelioma deaths for males aged 16-74 in Great Britain 2002-2010 Britain 2002-2010 Occupation description (for occupations with Occupation description (for occupations with at least 20 deaths observed) Observed Deaths at least 20 deaths observed) Observed Deaths

Fire service officers (leading fire officer & 32 Labourers in other construction trades n.e.c. 55 below) Labourers in process & plant operations 172 Ship & hovercraft officers 22 n.e.c. Estimators, valuers & assessors 22 Stevedores, dockers & slingers 42 Sales representatives 54 Other goods handling & storage occupations 112 Occupational hygienists & safety officers 20 n.e.c. (health & safety) Postal workers, mail sorters, messengers, 56 Civil Service administrative officers & 52 couriers assistants Cleaners, domestics 36 Accounts & wages clerks, book-keepers, 34 Security guards & related occupations 65 other financial clerks Occupations with less than 20 deaths 1404 General office assistants/clerks 31 combined. Farmers 26 Total male deaths aged 16-74 9038 Gardeners & groundsmen/groundswomen 58 Sheet metal workers 80 Table 2: Number of mesothelioma deaths for females aged 16-74 in Metal plate workers, shipwrights, riveters 91 Great Britain 2002-2010 Welding trades 113 Occupation description (for occupations with Pipe fitters 64 at least 20 deaths observed) Observed Deaths Metal machining setters & setter-operators 22 Primary & nursery education teaching 53 Tool makers, tool fitters & markers-out 28 professionals Metal working production & maintenance 399 Nurses 52 fitters Accounts & wages clerks, book-keepers, 38 Precision instrument makers & repairers 27 other financial clerks Motor mechanics, auto engineers 43 General office assistants/clerks 68 Vehicle body builders & repairers 42 Personal assistants & other secretaries 75 Electricians, electrical fitters 670 Receptionists 22 Telecommunications engineers 45 Chefs, cooks 22 Electrical/electronics engineers n.e.c. 54 Care assistants & home carers 67 Steel erectors 20 Sales & retail assistants 94 Bricklayers, masons 74 Sewing machinists 38 Roofers, roof tilers & slaters 42 Labourers in process & plant operations 65 Plumbers, heating & ventilating engineers 414 n.e.c. Carpenters & joiners 857 Kitchen & catering assistants 23 Construction trades n.e.c. 390 Cleaners, domestics 115 Plasterers 52 Occupations with less than 20 deaths 603 Floorers & wall tilers 34 combined. Painters & decorators 320 Total female deaths aged 16-74 1335 Printers 25 Furniture makers, other craft woodworkers 39 Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Care assistants & home carers 23 Caretakers 65 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of Sales & retail assistants 26 the annual fatalities caused by mesothelioma involve Chemical & related process operatives 30 former members of the armed forces; what data are Paper & wood machine operatives 27 kept on the cause of death of former servicemen; and what research they plan to commission into the Coal mine operatives 35 incidence of mesothelioma amongst former servicemen. Energy plant operatives 52 [HL5096] Metal working machine operatives 347 Plant & machine operatives n.e.c. 86 Routine inspectors & testers 40 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): Data on the Scaffolders, stagers, riggers 50 number of annual fatalities caused by mesothelioma Construction operatives n.e.c. 112 does not identify those who were former members of Heavy goods vehicle drivers 180 the Armed Forces. Van drivers 98 The causes of death amongst certain groups of Bus & coach drivers 50 serving and former personnel (e.g. veterans of the Taxi, cab drivers & chauffeurs 77 1982 Falklands Campaign and the 1990/91 Gulf Conflict), Seafarers (merchant navy); barge, lighter & 21 are collected, and released annually by the Ministry of boat operatives Defence (MOD) Defence Statistics. Fork-lift truck drivers 40 Defence Statistics is also currently undertaking a Mobile machine drivers & operatives n.e.c. 20 study of all serving members of the Armed Forces Labourers in building & woodworking trades 202 from 2003 (when operations began in Iraq) until the WA 125 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 126 end of operations in Afghanistan, with a view to To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many analysing the eventual cause of death of the entire educational institutions in the United Kingdom cohort. Defence Statistics expects to publish the initial seeking university status belong within a chain of results of the study towards the end of 2014. such establishments. [HL5189] The MOD has no plans to commission research To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many into the incidence of mesothelioma amongst former educational institutions in the United Kingdom Service Personnel. seeking university status are for profit. [HL5190] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Health: Public Health England students within educational institutions in the United Kingdom seeking university status are in receipt of Question state financial support. [HL5191] Asked by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): An organisation To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the wishing to apply for approval to use the title ‘university’ remainder of the Advisory Board of Public Health in England must: England has yet been appointed; and if so, how many of the new members are women. [HL5130] • have been granted powers to award taught degrees • normally have at least 1,000 full time equivalent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department higher education students, of whom at least 750 are of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The recruitment process registered on degree courses (including foundation for two further non-executive members to Public degree programmes), and the number of full time Health England’s Advisory Board has concluded. The equivalent higher education students must exceed recommendations of the selection panel are currently 55% of the total number of full time equivalent with Ministers who will make the final decision. students • be able to demonstrate that it has regard to the Higher Education: Escort Services principles of good governance as are relevant to its sector Questions There are no applications currently under consideration. Asked by Baroness Tonge To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Human Rights they have had with university authorities concerning Question escorts working from university campuses. [HL5139] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Asked by Lord Mendelsohn they have had with university authorities concerning To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they university students advertising escort services on regularly receive reports from international non- the internet. [HL5140] governmental organisations or private sector To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions organisations evaluating human rights and political they have had with university authorities concerning risk in different countries. [HL5244] university students working as escorts meeting clients on campuses. [HL5141] The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): We have had no Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Government regularly discussions with universities about these issues. As receive reports from international non-governmental independent and autonomous bodies, higher education organisations and private sector organisations evaluating institutions are responsible for all matters relating to human rights. the operation of their institution, including responsibility for student conduct. It is for universities to decide Human Trafficking whether any conduct needs reporting to the police. There is also a long-established principle that universities Questions have a duty of care to their students. Each institution Asked by Lord Eames will determine what arrangements they need to ensure the welfare of all their students. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the government of the Republic of Ireland concerning the movement of victims of Higher Education: University Status human trafficking across the land frontiers with Questions Northern Ireland. [HL5023] Asked by Baroness Bakewell To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their estimate of the current level of movement of victims To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of human trafficking into the United Kingdom educational institutions in the United Kingdom are across the border with the Republic of Ireland. currently seeking university status. [HL5188] [HL5024] WA 127 Written Answers[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Answers WA 128

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment of HM Inspectorate of Prisons following an they have made of the level of co-operation between unannounced inspection on 5–16 August 2013, police authorities in Northern Ireland and the Republic particularly that which concerns Rule 35. [HL5174] of Ireland where human trafficking is concerned. [HL5025] Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con): The performance To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their by GEO, the contractor running Harmondsworth, has estimate of the current number of victims of human been below the high standard expected. trafficking gaining entry to the United Kingdom from the Republic of Ireland. [HL5026] The Home Office has already taken a range of actions to address the areas of immediate concern. Contractors have been reminded of the appropriate The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home use of handcuffs and a specific instruction will be Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): The UK, issued for the management of detainees who have Republic of Ireland, Isle of Man, and Channel Islands been hospitalised. The Home Office has also instigated form part the Common Travel Area (CTA). Border a new process to notify case owners when detainees checks for immigration purposes are not routinely are moved to hospital to ensure that detention remains conducted within the CTA nor are estimates made of appropriate. There is a new healthcare provider and the movement of persons between CTA signatories. the Home Office is working closely with them to However, there is excellent co-operation between ensure that a safe and comprehensive service is provided. CTA signatories, including the UK and Ireland, to The Home Office’s Quality Audit Team will carry prevent abuse of the CTA by strengthening its external out a further audit of Rule 35 processes early in the border, including through increased alignment of border new financial year. processes. Border Force staff receive mandatory training to help identify and tackle human trafficking, and will A Service Improvement Plan will address each act on any information related to persons being moved recommendation and outline what action will be taken. to the UK from Ireland for exploitation. We plan to This will be published within two months of the work with the Irish authorities to ensure that the inspection. Thereafter, the Home Office has 18 months implications of the Modern Slavery Bill for the CTA to effect the improvements are fully understood. The UK also has regular discussions on all aspects of human trafficking with other EU governments, including Ireland, in multilateral fora. Immigration Removal Centres: Restraint Question Immigration Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno reports of the death while in handcuffs of Alois To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they have Dvorzac at Harmondsworth Immigration Removal paused decision-making on immigration cases relating Centre, whether they will review procedures for to spouses or partners where applications would be restraining elderly, vulnerable and incapacitated refused solely because the rules relating to the minimum detainees. [HL4704] income threshold are not met; what action they are taking to avoid a backlog of such cases; when The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home decision-making on such cases is likely to resume; Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): The use of and how many cases have been on hold since July restraint in this case was completely unjustified and 2012. [HL5264] such action must not be repeated in similar circumstances. The independent Prisons and Probation Ombudsman Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con): Since 5 July 2013 is investigating the circumstances of Mr Dvorzac’s High Court judgment in MM and Others, against death. The Home Office will carefully consider the which the Home Office is appealing, applications have findings of the Ombudsman’s report. Firm instructions been put on hold where grounds relating to the income have been issued making clear that restraint should threshold would be the sole basis for refusal. They will only happen where a risk assessment judges that it is remain on hold until the case has been finally determined absolutely necessary. by the courts. The Home Office intends to publish information on the number of applications put on hold on the Home Office immigration website. Internet: Freeview and 4G Question Immigration Removal Centres Asked by Baroness King of Bow Question Asked by Lord Avebury To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effectiveness of the at800 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps service in resolving the loss of television signal on have been taken at Harmondsworth Immigration Freeview following the extension of the 4G mobile Removal Centre to comply with the recommendations network at 800MHz. [HL4972] WA 129 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 130

Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): at800 reports on its Rouhani, and (2) after his election; how many they performance to the 4G TV Coexistence Oversight Board estimate to have taken place so far in 2014; and which was established by DCMS. The independent what impact the rate of executions will have on the Chair, appointed by DCMS, sends a report of each new negotiations with that country. [HL5177] Board meeting to the Minister for Culture, Communications and the Creative Industries. Copies of Board meeting The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities reports are available on the gov.uk website at https:// and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth www.gov.uk/government/policy-advisory-groups/ Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Reports of a rise in the 4gtv-co-existence-oversight-board . The incidences of number of executions since the election of President interference are much lower than expected; at the Rouhani are deeply disturbing. Estimates of the numbers Board meeting in January, at800 confirmed 772 cases vary, but there were at least 400 executions in 2013, of 4G interference, excluding the 35 cases found within including up to 200 since President Rouhani’s election. the pilots. Reports suggest there were up to 50 executions in January 2014 alone. The UK opposes the death penalty Internet: Young People as a matter of principle. We will continue to raise our Question concerns about the number of executions in Iran. Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light To ask Her Majesty’s Government what benefits of the death of Tallulah Wilson, how they plan to have been achieved for United Kingdom citizens or protect young people from inappropriate content the citizens of Iran since the appointment of a online. [HL4921] United Kingdom chargé d’affaires; whether a resumption of full diplomatic contacts with the Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): The Government Iranian regime is contemplated; and what is the takes the issue of child safety online very seriously and current situation relating to reciprocal activity. has engaged intensively with industry; as a result we [HL5178] have set out a series of measures to help parents keep children safe online. The four main ISPs have committed Baroness Warsi: The appointment of non-resident to giving their customers an easy way to install family Chargés d’Affaires enables the UK and Iran to have friendly filters that will protect all devices in the home. more regular discussions on issues of mutual interest. These allow parents to prevent their children from The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth accessing potentially harmful content. Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond In addition, the new national curriculum will see (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has made clear that we are open children aged 5 to 16 taught about internet safety in a to continued improvements in our bilateral relationship sensible, age-appropriate way, a really important step on a step by step and reciprocal basis. Progress is being to help children and young people understand some of made, but we will not have a diplomatic presence in the issues. Tehran until we have confidence that Iran will abide However, there is no silver bullet and social media by its obligations to protect our staff and that our sites and users also need to take responsibility. If mission would be allowed to carry out its normal individuals are having conversations about harming functions. themselves, then both social media sites and other users should point them to places where they can get help. Iraq: Camp Liberty We have been clear that we expect social media Questions companies to respond quickly to incidents of abusive behaviour on their networks. This includes having Asked by Lord Eden of Winton easy to use reporting tools, robust processes in place to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were respond promptly when abuse is reported and where their most recent representations made to the appropriate, suspending or terminating the accounts governments of Iraq and Iran concerning aggression of those who do not comply with the acceptable use against the inhabitants of Camp Liberty in Iraq; policies. We will shortly be inviting a number of social and whether they have received in reply any media companies to come and discuss with us what commitments or undertakings from those governments. more might be done to protect young people when [HL5158] they are online. The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Iran and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Questions Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Our Embassy in Baghdad Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass raised the 26 December attack on Camp Liberty with the Government of Iraq in January. We understand To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment that an investigation has been launched into the attack. they have made of changes to the rate of executions The Foreign Secretary raised security at the Camp in Iran since the election of President Rouhani; when he met the Iraqi Foreign Minister in November how many executions they estimate to have taken in London. We have not made representations to the place in 2013 (1) before the election of President Iranian government about the situation at Camp Liberty. WA 131 Written Answers[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Answers WA 132

Asked by Lord Eden of Winton discussions they have held with the government of Israel concerning reparations for IDF demolition To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they of European Union-funded structures. [HL5252] support the proposition that a United Nations Force should be sent to Camp Liberty for the protection Baroness Warsi: The UK has not provided funding of its inhabitants; and if not, why not. [HL5159] for any of the structures demolished by the Israel Defence Force on 26 January. Baroness Warsi: We do not support calls for United The Government has not had any discussions with Nations military personnel to be stationed at Camp the Israeli authorities over reparations for demolitions Liberty. The Government of Iraq, as the sovereign of EU funded structures, as this is a matter for the EU. Government, is responsible for security at the camp. Asked by Baroness Tonge Iraq: Camp Liberty and Camp Ashraf To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the government Question of Israel concerning the recent death of Mohammed Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass Mubarak. [HL5254]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when it is Baroness Warsi: Officials from our Embassy in intended to transfer the 72 Iranian refugees from Tel Aviv have not made representations on this specific Camps Liberty and Ashraf who have been identified case. as eligible to reside in the United Kingdom. [HL5179] Israel and Palestine Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con): None of the Questions 52 residents of Camp Ashraf and Camp Liberty who Asked by Baroness Tonge were previously settled in the UK as refugees have any current immigration status here or entitlement to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions re-admission. We have agreed to consider their they have had with the government of Israel concerning re-admission, exceptionally, subject to an assessment Palestinian children killed by the Israeli Defence of each individual to ensure that none has been complicit Force in 2013; and what effect, if any, their discussions in acts of terrorism or other activities incompatible concerning the use of live fire have had in limiting with refugee status. Thus far, the UN High Commissioner fatalities. [HL5084] for Refugees has submitted 17 individual cases to the Home Office. No decisions have yet been reached. The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Israel Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): We frequently raise their policing of Palestinian protests and the use of Questions live fire which have led to the deaths of Palestinians Asked by Lord Hylton including children, with the Israeli authorities. The fact that we continue to raise the issue at high levels is To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they indicative of our disappointment that we have yet to will make representations to the government of see significant changes in the approach adopted by the Israel for the early release and trial of the following Israeli security forces. individuals from the village of Hares in the West Recent contact includes written correspondence Bank who have been in custody since March 2013: between our Ambassador in Tel Aviv and the Israeli (1) Ali Shamlawi, (2) Mohamed Kleit, (3) Mohamed Ministry of Defence, and discussions between our Mehdi Suleiman, (4) Tamer Souf, and (5) Ammar Embassy officials and the Israeli National Security Souf. [HL5106] Council and the Israeli Office for the Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) on The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities 16 January. It was also an issue we raised during and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Israel’s Universal Periodic Review at the UN Human Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Officials from our Embassy Rights Council on 29 October. in Tel Aviv met with the Israeli Defence Force and the Asked by Baroness Tonge Israeli Ministry of Justice on 27 January to raise our concerns over the cases of the five boys from Hares To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment village currently in Israeli detention. they have made of the number of elected parliamentarians of the Palestinian Legislative Council Asked by Baroness Tonge currently held in Israeli prisons. [HL5086] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they provided any funding for the residential and other Baroness Warsi: According to the Palestinian human structures which the Israel Defence Force (IDF) rights organisation Addameer, the number of elected demolished on 26 January in the Bedouin villages Palestinian parliamentarians currently being held in of Ibziq and Khirbet Yarza; and what recent Israeli prisons as of December 2013 is 14. WA 133 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 134

Israel and Palestine: West Bank (RCI) in 2011, incremental progress has been made against the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) with the Question number of people displaced by their activity reduced Asked by Baroness Tonge by over 30%. This sustained pressure has also meant that the number of LRA fighters continues to decline. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their Most recently, 19 LRA defectors came out of the bush policy objectives in respect of Israeli settlers living in the Central African Republic on 6 December. in the West Bank. [HL5253] The UK has consistently promoted a co-ordinated regional and international approach to defeating the The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities LRA. We lead this work in the United Nations (UN) and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Security Council. We continue to encourage the UN Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Our policy on settlements and AU to implement their counter-LRA strategies in is that they are illegal under international law and an full and bring Kony to justice. obstacle to peace. We warmly welcome the resumption of peace talks between the Israelis and Palestinians, which US Secretary of State John Kerry has confirmed are to cover all final status issues, including borders Mental Health: Eating Disorders and settlements. Question Asked by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Kuwait Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what provision they make for those suffering eating disorders. Asked by Lord Avebury [HL5148] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made about the situation of the stateless The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department bidoon of Kuwait; on what occasions they have of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The Government takes raised the matter with the government of Kuwait; the issue of eating disorders, especially among young and what further measures they consider should be people, very seriously. Children and young people’s taken by the United Nations High Commissioner mental health is a priority for this Government, as we for Human Rights to eliminate statelessness of the know that half of those with lifetime mental illness bidoon in Kuwait and other Gulf countries. first experience symptoms by the age of 14, and three- [HL5175] quarters before their mid-20s. We are investing £54 million into improving access The Senior Minister of State, Department for to mental health treatments through the Children and Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Young People’s Improving Access to Psychological Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Therapies (CYP IAPT) programme. CYP IAPT provides Kuwaiti government has made clear that it is seeking training in a number of National Institute for Health to find a long term solution to the issue of the stateless and Care Excellence (NICE) approved psychological Bidoon in Kuwait. We regularly encourage the therapies including Systemic Family Therapy and Government of Kuwait to tackle the subject, swiftly Interpersonal Psychotherapy. These therapies support and in a transparent and equitable manner, most families and address some of the major mental health recently when the Minister of State for Foreign and problems of adolescence including eating disorders. Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Mr Robertson), Additionally, NICE published guidance on core discussed it at the UK-Kuwait Joint Steering Group in interventions in the treatment and management of November. We judge that these are the most effective eating disorders in 2004. fora in which to address the subject. We have not We are also working with internet security companies, specifically discussed the issue with the UN High charities and departments to explore how to protect Commissioner for Human Rights. children and young people from harmful internet content related to eating disorders. NHS England has a clinical reference group (CRG) Lord’s Resistance Army specific to specialised services for eating disorders. The Question CRG has developed a national service specification Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool which covers intensive treatments (inpatient and intensive day-patients) and some outreach/outpatient work for To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress adults with very severe and intractable eating disorders. has been made in curbing the Lords Resistance The aims of the service are to limit the physical and Army and in bringing Joseph Kony to justice. psychiatric morbidity, social disability and mortality [HL5170] levels caused by eating disorders, effectively treat people with very complex eating disorders and/or severe morbidity The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and minimise the length of time between referral and and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth admission to the inpatient service. Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Since the inception of All patients will be managed with a care programme the African Union’s (AU) Regional Cooperation Initiative approach. WA 135 Written Answers[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Answers WA 136

National Ugly Mugs Scheme NHS: Data Questions Question Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment trial of the National Ugly Mugs scheme funded by they have made of the NHS data share plan; and the Home Office has been evaluated; and, if so, how they propose in the light of that plan to protect what the findings of that evaluation were. [HL5214] citizens’ privacy. [HL5161]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department violent offenders were identified and arrested as a of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): NHS England’s ‘Better direct result of the National Ugly Mugs project; information means better care’ leaflet sets out how the and whether any successful prosecutions have been National Health Service will improve the quality of brought as a result. [HL5215] care and health services for all by using information about the care received. The Health and Social Care Information Centre Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con): The National Ugly (HSCIC) has published a privacy impact assessment Mugs Scheme is a national mechanism for reporting for all the personal data it processes and for the crimes committed against people involved in prostitution. care.data programme which details how an individual’s The Home Office funded pilot ran from April 2012 to privacy will be protected. March 2013, co-ordinated by the UK Network of Sex The HSCIC collects information from a range of Worker Projects. The evaluation of the pilot is available places such as a patient’s general practitioner practice, on their website: uknswp.org. The Home Office does hospitals and community services. The HSCIC has not collate figures on identification, arrests, or prosecutions been established to be the secure environment in which as a direct result of the National Ugly Mugs Pilot personal confidential data is held and analysed. The Scheme. HSCIC is legally bound to maintain confidentiality and to ensure confidential information is held securely. There are very strict rules about what information the HSCIC can release to the NHS and outside organisations, NHS: Clinical Commissioning Groups for example, access to the information is restricted to Question the specific information necessary for the research. All approvals must demonstrate compliance with the Data Asked by Baroness Manzoor Protection Act 1998. Information can be released in three ways: Toask Her Majesty’s Government what mechanisms — Non-identifiable data (aggregated or completely have been put in place between clinical commissioning anonymised data) are published openly after removing groups (CCGs) and local authorities to demonstrate all identifiers and removing details of any rare how CCGs will access local public health services. conditions or combinations of characteristics; [HL5042] — Potentially identifiable data (pseudonymised data) are made available under legal contract to approved analysts for purposes that will benefit patient care; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department and of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The Health and Social Care Act 2012 gave local authorities in England the — Identifiable information (personal confidential responsibility for taking appropriate steps to improve data) are made available to named individuals only public health in their areas. It gave clinical commissioning where explicit consent has been given, such as groups (CCGs) a duty to obtain advice on the protection agreement to participate in a research study, or or improvement of public health, and regulations there is a legal basis for doing so. made under the Act require local authorities to provide public health advice to CCGs. NHS: Hospital Fatalities The 2012 Act also established health and wellbeing Question boards as a key mechanism for all local health and care leaders, including CCGs and local authority directors Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick of public health, to come together to improve the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they health and wellbeing of their local population and to intend to take steps to ensure that National Health reduce health inequalities. Health and wellbeing board Service staff are required to co-operate with the members should be collaborating to understand their police in the investigation of deaths in hospitals. local community’s needs, agree priorities, and encourage [HL5014] commissioners to work in a more joined-up way. We would expect local health and wellbeing boards to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department evaluate access to local public health services, based of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): NHS England’s existing on their joint strategic needs assessment and joint Serious Incident Framework makes clear the importance health and wellbeing strategies, and to agree their of full co-operation of National Health Service collective approach. organisations with any external investigations of serious WA 137 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 138 incidents, which include unexpected or avoidable deaths, that North Korea has expanded its uranium enrichment including police investigations. The Framework states facility, restarted a plutonium reactor, and is developing that “Providers should.. .collaborate with external scrutiny a road-mobile ballistic missile. [HL5099] of investigations and any remedial work required following investigations, including full and open exchange of The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities information with other investigatory agencies such as and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth the police, Health & Safety Executive, Coroner and Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Mr Clapper’s remarks local safeguarding boards. on North Korea’s nuclear and missile programmes, In addition, we expect all healthcare professionals including that North Korea restarted its plutonium- to bear in mind their professional codes of conduct producing reactor at Yongbyon in mid 2013, are consistent when asked to co-operate with any police investigations with the Government’s understanding of the situation. into patient deaths in hospitals. The professional code of conduct for registered nurses and midwives, for example, states that You must cooperate with internal Nuclear Weapons and external investigations.../. This is important in Question order for NHS staff to remain accountable and provide the best patient care. Asked by Lord Browne of Ladyton To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Nigeria have plans to attend the International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons conference on the Question humanitarian impact of nuclear weapons, in Nayarit, Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Mexico, from 13 to 14 February. [HL5070] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the attacks on villages in Adamawa The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Borno states, Nigeria, on 26 January by members and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth of Boko Haram; and when Ministers last met the Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): We are still considering Nigerian High Commissioner and representatives this issue. A decision will be made as soon as possible, of the government of Nigeria to discuss the role of and communicated to the House. Boko Haram. [HL5168]

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Offenders: Deaths in Custody and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Question Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): We are appalled by these attacks which resulted in the deaths of innocent Asked by Lord Ouseley Nigerians. There can be no justification for attacks To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions which target ordinary people going about their daily they have had with the United Families and Friends business. The UK will continue to support the Nigerian Campaign on deaths in custody; and what action authorities in their efforts to counter the terrorist they have taken as a result of those discussions. threat and to help bring those responsible to justice. [HL4470] The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my Rt. Hon. Friend the Member for Richmond The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord (Yorks) (Mr Hague), and the Parliamentary Under- Faulks) (Con): The Government is committed to reducing Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for the number of deaths in prisons and every effort is Boston and Skegness (Mr Simmonds), met the Nigerian being made to learn from them to help prevent further President’s Special Envoy for Security, Professor Viola deaths. The Ministry of Justice has not had any discussions Onwuliri, on 5 June 2013 accompanied by the Nigerian with the United Family and Friends Campaign on High Commissioner to London. On 24 September deaths in prison custody. 2013 Mr Simmonds again met the Envoy, who was by then also acting Foreign Minister. On both occasions Foreign and Commonwealth Office Ministers discussed the security situation and Boko Haram, and made Offenders: Dependants clear that the UK continued to support the Nigerian Question government’s fight against extremism while stressing Asked by Lord Patten the need to ensure respect for human rights. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to North Korea the Written Answer by Baroness Warsi on 28 January (WA 221), when they expect to have concluded Question their examination concerning arrangements for the Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool identification and consideration of dependents of those remanded or sentenced to custody; whether To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment the conclusions of this examination will be published; they have made of the remarks of James Clapper, and whether they are considering legislation. United States Director of National Intelligence, [HL5145] WA 139 Written Answers[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Answers WA 140

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Police: Private Prosecutions Faulks) (Con): The Government is continuing to look carefully at the issue of dependants of those sent to Question custody, and is now discussing the subject with a Asked by Lord Beecham number of interested parties. As part of this we are assessing what practical measures might be necessary To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many to support effective identification and consideration private prosecutions arrangements, similar to the of dependants. recently disclosed arrangement between Virgin Media and the Metropolitan Police, have been entered into by the Metropolitan Police and other police forces. [HL5237] Office of the Quartet Representative Question Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con): This information is not held centrally. Asked by Baroness Tonge To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the cost to the Exchequer of maintaining the Office of Power of Attorney the Quartet Representative; and what estimate they Question have made of the economic successes of the Quartet in the last ten years. [HL5088] Asked by Baroness Byford To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Statement by Lord McNally on 16 July The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities 2013 (WS 60), whether those acting for someone and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth seeking to register power of attorney are allowed to Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Government does charge more than the £110 per application levied by not provide any financial contribution towards the Office of the Public Guardian. [HL4736] maintaining the Office of the Quartet Representative (OQR). However, we do currently second two civil servants to the Office of the Quartet Representative in The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Jerusalem to support the work of the Quartet in Faulks) (Con): The LPA application process has been reinforcing the prospects of a resolution of the Israeli- designed so that anyone can complete and register an Palestinian conflict. We assess that the OQR has delivered LPA without the need for professional advice. If donors important economic outcomes that are helping to choose to seek professional advice then they may pay change the situation on the ground and bring the legal fees in addition to the £110 registration fee. OPG prospect of a two-state solution closer. has no control over those fees charged by professionals. OPG is currently working with third sector partners and other Government Departments to see how in future we might provide customers with a broader Pensions range of advice and assistance for registering an LPA online. Question

Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham Railways: Diesel Units and Vehicles To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Questions United Kingdom citizens receiving the basic state pension reside in each country of the European Asked by Lord Greaves Union. [HL5209] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any proposals to encourage the provision of new diesel trains for services within the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Northern franchise (1) as part of discussions with for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con)::Wedonot Northern Rail on the possible extension of the hold data on the citizenship or nationality of basic Northern franchise from April 2014 to February state pension claimants as this is not a condition of 2016, and (2) as part the new Northern franchise eligibility. The UK State Pension is a contributory which is due to operate from March 2016. [HL5119] pension system, so if you make contributions then you build up entitlement. The Minister of State, Department for Transport The most recent published statistics on the number (Baroness Kramer) (LD): In requesting a proposal of people claiming a UK State Pension in different from Northern Rail for an interim franchise agreement countries can be found at the following link: to run from March 2014, the Department for Transport’s http://tabulation-tool.dwp.gov.uk/100pc/sp/ primary objective was service continuity, and it did cccountry/ccsex/ not require proposals for new rolling stock. The a_carate_r_cccountry_ccsex_may13.html Department normally considers the choice and provision WA 141 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 142 of rolling stock in a passenger rail franchise to be a Baroness Kramer: The Department for Transport matter for the franchisee, and it is not currently planning has contracted the required work through the standard to specify rolling stock in relation to a new Northern rail investment process. Therefore, Network Rail is franchise to operate from February 2016. responsible for ensuring the infrastructure will be ready in time for the Class 800 / 801 deployment. Asked by Lord Greaves To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Railways: West Coast Mainline and are holding discussions with other train operating companies or rolling stock companies with a view Crossrail to transferring diesel units to the Northern franchise Question and, if so, when such transfers will take place. Asked by Lord Bradshaw [HL5120] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether there Baroness Kramer: At present no such discussions are any proposals for diverting any commuter trains are taking place. from the West Coast mainline into Crossrail, so as to avoid congestion at Euston station. [HL5240]

Railways: European Rail Traffic The Minister of State, Department for Transport Management System (Baroness Kramer) (LD): I understand that Transport Question for London and Network Rail are assessing the technical feasibility of linking the West Coast Mainline to the Asked by Lord Bradshaw Great Western Mainline at the proposed new Great Western Mainline station at Old Oak Common which To ask Her Majesty’s Government what provision could allow Crossrail trains to operate onto the West they are making for trains other than the Class 800 Coast Mainline. and 801 to operate on lines affected by the introduction of the European Traffic Management System. [HL5269] Selenium Question The Minister of State, Department for Transport Asked by The Countess of Mar (Baroness Kramer) (LD): All new rolling stock being procured by the Department for Transport – the Class To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the 700s, 800 and 801 include fitment with the European current selenium status of the United Kingdom rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS). population; and what they consider to be the optimum Network Rail’s national deployment plan for ERTMS level. [HL5007] aligns well with the Departments passenger franchise program. All new franchises will obligate the Franchisee, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department where necessary, to retro-fit and introduce fitted trains of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): Plasma selenium into ERTMS service operation to coordinate with concentration is the most frequently used measure of Network Rail’s infrastructure plans. selenium status, but there is no agreed value indicating adequate status. The most recent National Diet and Nutrition Survey (NDNS) rolling programme report Railways: Intercity Express Trains found that adults aged 19-64 years in the United Questions Kingdom had a mean plasma selenium concentration of 1.08 micrornol/litre 1. Asked by Lord Bradshaw The NDNS rolling programme found teenagers To ask Her Majesty’s Government what luggage and adults to have mean selenium intakes below the space, separate from wheelchair space, will be available reference nutrient intake (RNI), the amount of a for passenger use on the proposed new Intercity specific nutrient which is sufficient for almost all Express trains; and what space is available on the individuals. Only boys and girls aged 1.5-10 years had present Intercity 225 trains on the East Coast Main mean intakes above the RNI. Intakes below the RNI Line. [HL5239] are not an indicator of inadequacy, and in the case of selenium were set on very limited data. Caution should be exercised when using the RNI to infer the adequacy The Minister of State, Department for Transport of selenium intake in the population. (Baroness Kramer) (LD): I refer the Noble Lord to the In 2013, the Scientific Advisory Committee on answer I gave him on 21st October 2013 [Official Nutrition concluded that no adverse health consequences Report, Column WA136W]. of dietary intakes at the levels typically seen in the UK Asked by Lord Bradshaw or benefits of higher intakes have been convincingly demonstrated 2. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Notes: they have to ensure that the necessary infrastructure, 1. Bates B, Lennox A, Prentice A, Bates C, & Swan G (Eds.) including signalling, for the new Intercity Express (2012) National Diet and Nutrition Survey. Headline results Trains (Class 800 and 801) is in place before those from Years 1, 2 and 3 (combined) of the rolling programme trains start operation. [HL5268] (2008-2009 — 2010-11) WA 143 Written Answers[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Answers WA 144

2 SACN Position Statement on Selenium and Health, May 2013, programmed funding has also been reprioritised to www.sacn.gov.uk/reports_position_statements/ support the response. This includes funding for the position_statements/ UN’s Humanitarian Air Service, which airlifts aid sacn_position_statement_on_selenium_and_health_- _may_2013.html workers and life-saving supplies into difficult to reach areas. Sellafield Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of Troika support for the new Asked by Lord Avebury Intergovernmental Authority on Development peace process for South Sudan; and what action they are To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they taking to ensure that humanitarian assistance reaches will place in the Library of the House a copy of those internally displaced by the outbreak of conflict the five-year extension to the Sellafield nuclear in South Sudan and refugees from the Nuba Mountains decommissioning contract awarded to Nuclear living in South Sudan. [HL5218] Management Partners; which Minister signed off the spending of £5 billion on the contract; and whether that Minister had read the KPMG report Baroness Northover: The Troika have been strong “The PBO model at Sellafield: Performance to advocates of the mediation efforts led by the Inter- 31st May 2013” dated 11 September 2013. [HL5172] Governmental Authority on Development (IGAD) and have played an influential role in engaging with The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department both parties to press for a negotiated resolution to the of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma) (Con): conflict. All three Troika countries sent senior officials The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA) is to Juba at an early stage in the conflict, and have responsible for running the competitions to select maintained this high level of engagement both in Parent Body Organisations to run its Site Licence South Sudan and in the region. Companies. Government approval is required before a contract is awarded, after which the NDA is responsible The UK’s Envoy for the South Sudan talks has for managing the contracts. been active with his Troika counterparts in facilitating dialogue, including through travelling to South Sudan The Government approved the contract with Sellafield for direct talks with Riek Machar in support of IGAD’s Ltd under the ownership of Nuclear Management outreach to both parties, to encourage them to participate Partners (NMP) in 2008. The contract is for a 17 year fully in the Cessation of Hostilities agreement. With period, with fixed review points at 5, 5, 5 and 2 year our Troika partners, we have been supporting the intervals and includes the option for NDA to terminate, establishment of the monitoring and verification for convenience, with 12 months notice. mechanism to oversee the implementation of the The KPMG report, which provided an independent agreement including providing an expert to the Advance review of performance at Mieleld Ltd in the first five Party of the ceasefire oversight committee (“Joint year period under the ownership of NMP, was Technical Committee”) which arrived in Juba on commissioned by the NDA to help inform its decision 2 February. The Troika will continue to play a supporting on whether to continue with the contract. The contract role in the IGAD mediation efforts as peace talks review, and decision to continue with the contract, was resume on the 10 February. an operational matter for the NDA. The UK has already allocated £12.5 million for The NDA’s contracts with its Site Licence Companies humanitarian assistance and protection to those affected and their parent bodies are all available on the NDA’s by the crisis. Of this amount, on 10 January DFID website. Details of the terms, of the second period of announced that £6m would be committed to the Rapid the contract with NMP, due to commence in April, are Response Facility which is supporting key agencies being finalised; they will be published on the NDA’s already operating in South Sudan. Furthermore £19m website in due course. of previously programmed funding is being used now to support the response. This includes funding for the South Sudan UN’s Humanitarian Air Service, which airlifts aid Questions workers and life-saving supplies into difficult to reach areas. We continue to call upon all parties to the Asked by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth conflict to ensure safe and secure access for humanitarian To ask Her Majesty’s Government what agencies and to respect their neutrality. international aid they are providing to help deal with the crisis in South Sudan. [HL5187] Spain: Treaty of Utrecht Baroness Northover (LD): The UK has allocated £12.5 million for humanitarian assistance and protection Question to those affected by the crisis. Of this amount, £6m Asked by Lord Hoyle has been committed to the Rapid Response Facility which is supporting key agencies already operating in To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to South Sudan. This assistance is supporting access to the remarks by Baroness Warsi on 20 January (HL Deb, clean water, basic shelter items and non-food items col 450), whether Spain continues to recognise the including blankets. An additional £19m of previously Treaty of Utrecht. [HL5122] WA 145 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 146

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Spain’s position on the Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): As set out in the Geneva continued recognition by Spain of the Treaty of Utrecht Communiqué of June 2012, the aim of Geneva II is to is a matter for the Spanish government. establish, by mutual consent, a transitional governing body in Syria with full executive powers. The negotiations Sudan at Geneva II are between the two Syrian delegations – the Assad regime and the Syrian Opposition. The Questions National Coalition is the heart and lead of the Opposition Asked by Lord Avebury delegation. The negotiations are facilitated by the UN To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment and Arab League Special Envoy, Lakhdar Brahimi. they have made of the commentary on aerial attacks No other states are directly involved. No one should on civilians by the Sudan Air Force in the United underestimate the difficulties that lie ahead, but the Nations Secretary-General’s report on the African UK is committed to doing everything it can, working Union–United Nations Hybrid Operation in with international partners, to maximise the chances Darfur. [HL5176] of the Geneva II process succeeding and achieving a political transition that can end the conflict and bring The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities hope to the Syrian people. and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): I am deeply concerned Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno that the security and humanitarian situation in Darfur continues to deteriorate. Aerial attacks, as detailed in To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the the UN Secretary-General’s report, have continued to Home Office will be delegating the responsibility claim the lives of innocent civilians and displace large for determining which refugees from Syria the United numbers of people, with restrictions on access preventing Kingdom will accept as part of their resettlement the African Union-United Nations Hybrid Operation programme to organisations such as the United in Darfur (UNAMID) from reaching those affected. Nations High Commissioner for Refugees; and, if We have repeatedly raised these issues in the UN so, which organisations they have approached to Security Council, and have made clear to the Government date. [HL5211] of Sudan, including during the recent visit to Sudan by the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds), Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con): The Vulnerable that offensive military overflights in Darfur, in Person Relocation scheme (VPR) was announced by contravention of UN Security Council resolutions, are the Home Secretary on 29 January 2014, Official wholly unacceptable. We have made our concern Report, columns 888-889. The scheme will provide particularly clear where the indiscriminate use of aerial emergency sanctuary in the UK for displaced Syrians bombardments leads to civilian casualties. who are most at risk, prioritising in particular help for survivors of torture and violence, and women and Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool children at risk or in need of medical care. The To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Government has agreed to work with the United they have made of the government of Sudan’s Nations High Commissioner for Refugees to determine suspension of activities by the International Committee who will be accepted under the scheme. of the Red Cross and its impact on marginalised regions of Sudan, particularly Darfur. [HL5219] Baroness Northover (LD): On 1st February the Tourism: Tour Operators Government of Sudan announced that it was suspending the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) Question activities in Sudan. ICRC planned activities will benefit over a million people in 2014 through the provision of Asked by Lord Pendry emergency health care, livelihoods support and family To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps reunification activities. We are particularly concerned they are taking to discourage tour operators from that ICRC are currently unable to respond to ongoing increasing their prices during school holidays. displacement in Darfur. ICRC is talking with authorities [HL5258] with a view to restarting operations as soon as possible. We will continue to monitor the situation closely. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Syria for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger Questions of Leckie) (Con): The Government has no plans to seek to influence the prices charged by tour operators. Asked by Lord Hylton It is for business to decide what to charge for its To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they services. In doing so tour operators no doubt take into will take steps to enable the Syrian participants to account the peaks and troughs in demand they experience reach agreements between themselves, without oversight over the course of a year and set their prices at a from other states, at the Geneva II conference. level which will attract customers in a competitive [HL5056] market. WA 147 Written Answers[11 FEBRUARY 2014] Written Answers WA 148

Transport: Cycle Hire Schemes Minister Erdogan announced on 30 September 2013 that the land containing the Mor Gabriel Monastary Question will be returned to the Syriac community in Turkey. Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark We welcome these positive steps taken by the Turkish government and, together with our EU partners, will To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they continue to encourage further progress. will provide funding to (1) the Mayor of London’s cycle hire scheme, and (2) similar schemes in other Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon cities. [HL5038] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they The Minister of State, Department for Transport intend to hold a referendum before they agree to (Baroness Kramer) (LD): The Department for Transport the accession of Turkey to the European Union. provides funding to Transport for London (TfL) via [HL5202] the GLA Transport Grant—£1.988bn this year. It is the Mayor’s responsibility to prioritise the programmes Baroness Warsi: Accession to the European Union that will be undertaken. is a condition-based process and there is therefore no The department has provided 33 local authorities definitive timetable for Turkey. Turkey must meet all with funding to establish cycle hire schemes through the requirements of the EU acquis before it can join the Local Sustainable Transport Fund over four years the EU and the British Government is a strong supporter to 2015. For example, Reading, Sefton and Oxfordshire of Turkish accession, so long as Turkey meets these councils have all made good progress on their cycle accession criteria. hire schemes. The Government commitment is that referendums In addition, the Local Sustainable Transport Fund would be held on transfers of power or competence 15/16 competitive process was recently launched and from the UK to EU; accession treaties provide for this provides an ideal opportunity for authorities to transfers from the acceding state to the EU. Therefore, bid for funding to implement cycle hire schemes in this Government does not support a referendum on their area. this issue. Under the EU Act 2011, any new accession Through our Community Linking Places Fund we treaty must be ratified by an Act of Parliament. allocated £14.5m for train operators to install new cycle facilities at railway stations. Some of this funding has gone towards the installation of over 1,300 new Ukraine cycle hire bikes at stations. Question Turkey Asked by Lord Hylton Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Asked by Lord Patten will take action to develop an approach on the situation in the Ukraine; and whether they will seek To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to to agree their approach with the European Union the Written Answer by Baroness Warsi on 28 January and the United States. [HL5055] (WA 227–8), whether they will now list in which respect Turkey has, in their view, made progress in recent years concerning respect for religious and The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities ethnic minorities. [HL5144] and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Government continues The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities to encourage all parties in Ukraine to take steps to and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth defuse tension and increase trust. We fully supported Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The British Government the recent visit of the High Representative of the continues to monitor closely the situation of religious European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security minorities in Turkey. Policy, Baroness Ashton, to Kyiv and are working closely with our European and other allies to contribute We have noted the continued implementation of to a long term solution that addresses the aspirations legislation from 2011, which amended the 2008 Law of the Ukrainian people and provides them with the on Foundations, to allow the return of properties to prosperity and stability they deserve. religious minorities or the payment of compensation. Religious services are now permitted at the Greek Orthodox Sumela Monastery and Armenian Orthodox Akdamar Church. Young Offenders: Re-offending The Ministry of National Education has begun the Question issuing of updated religious textbooks for schools Asked by Lord Beecham which include information on the Alevi faith. During consultations for a new constitution, faith groups were To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether statistics invited to parliament to give their views. We also of re-offending rates by young offenders take account welcome the continued outreach by the Turkish of the seriousness of further offences; and whether government to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholemew, there is a discernible trend for such offences to be particularly on the issue of the Halki Seminary. Prime less or more serious. [HL5107] WA 149 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 150

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Proven reoffending by young offenders is tracked, Faulks): Reducing re-offending rates among under 18s including the seriousness of further offences. is a Government priority. This is why we recently Reoffending statistics are published quarterly by announced plans to overhaul youth custody by doubling the Ministry of Justice and can be found at the link the amount of education in YoungOffender Institutions below: and building a new Secure College, which will equip young people with the skills they need to turn their www.gov.uk/government/publications/proven- lives around. reoffending-statistics-april-2011-march-2012 Tuesday 11 February 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill...... 47 Hong Kong...... 48 Energy: ELEXON Ltd...... 47

Tuesday 11 February 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Agriculture: Genetically Modified Crops ...... 107 Higher Education: University Status...... 125

Apprenticeships ...... 108 Human Rights ...... 126

Asylum Seekers...... 108 Human Trafficking ...... 126

Bangladesh ...... 109 Immigration...... 127

BBC Trust...... 110 Immigration Removal Centres ...... 127

Civil Nuclear Police Federation ...... 110 Immigration Removal Centres: Restraint...... 128

Copyright ...... 110 Internet: Freeview and 4G ...... 128

Credit Unions ...... 111 Internet: Young People ...... 129

Cyprus and Northern Cyprus ...... 111 Iran...... 129

Deregulation Bill...... 112 Iraq: Camp Liberty...... 130

Dominican Republic ...... 112 Iraq: Camp Liberty and Camp Ashraf...... 131

Drugs: Prescription Medicines...... 113 Israel...... 131

Egypt ...... 114 Israel and Palestine ...... 132

Elderly People: Care ...... 114 Israel and Palestine: West Bank ...... 133

Employment: Commonwealth Professionals...... 115 Kuwait ...... 133

Employment: Migrants...... 115 Lord’s Resistance Army ...... 133

Environment: Rights of Way ...... 116 Mental Health: Eating Disorders...... 134

Equality ...... 117 National Ugly Mugs Scheme ...... 135

Eurozone ...... 117 NHS: Clinical Commissioning Groups ...... 135

Finance: Loans ...... 118 NHS: Data...... 136

Flooding ...... 118 NHS: Hospital Fatalities...... 136

Gambling...... 120 Nigeria...... 137

Gaza ...... 120 North Korea ...... 137

Government Departments: Asbestos ...... 121 Nuclear Weapons...... 138

Health: Mesothelioma ...... 122 Offenders: Deaths in Custody ...... 138

Health: Public Health England ...... 125 Offenders: Dependants ...... 138

Higher Education: Escort Services...... 125 Office of the Quartet Representative...... 139 Col. No. Col. No. Pensions...... 139 South Sudan ...... 143

Police: Private Prosecutions ...... 140 Spain: Treaty of Utrecht ...... 144

Power of Attorney ...... 140 Sudan...... 145

Railways: Diesel Units and Vehicles...... 140 Syria ...... 145

Railways: European Rail Traffic Management System..... 141 Tourism: Tour Operators ...... 146

Railways: Intercity Express Trains ...... 141 Transport: Cycle Hire Schemes ...... 147

Railways: West Coast Mainline and Crossrail...... 142 Turkey...... 147

Selenium ...... 142 Ukraine...... 148

Sellafield ...... 143 Young Offenders: Re-offending...... 148 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL4470] ...... 138 [HL5058] ...... 120

[HL4704] ...... 128 [HL5067] ...... 113

[HL4736] ...... 140 [HL5070] ...... 138

[HL4756] ...... 117 [HL5078] ...... 113

[HL4919] ...... 114 [HL5079] ...... 113

[HL4921] ...... 129 [HL5084] ...... 132

[HL4972] ...... 128 [HL5086] ...... 132

[HL5000] ...... 110 [HL5087] ...... 120

[HL5004] ...... 107 [HL5088] ...... 139

[HL5005] ...... 107 [HL5089] ...... 121

[HL5006] ...... 107 [HL5095] ...... 122

[HL5007] ...... 142 [HL5096] ...... 124

[HL5008] ...... 107 [HL5099] ...... 138

[HL5009] ...... 108 [HL5104] ...... 121

[HL5014] ...... 136 [HL5105] ...... 121

[HL5023] ...... 126 [HL5106] ...... 131

[HL5024] ...... 126 [HL5107] ...... 148

[HL5025] ...... 127 [HL5119] ...... 140

[HL5026] ...... 127 [HL5120] ...... 141

[HL5027] ...... 108 [HL5122] ...... 144

[HL5038] ...... 147 [HL5124] ...... 115

[HL5042] ...... 135 [HL5130] ...... 125

[HL5043] ...... 118 [HL5135] ...... 120

[HL5044] ...... 119 [HL5136] ...... 120

[HL5055] ...... 148 [HL5139] ...... 125

[HL5056] ...... 145 [HL5140] ...... 125 Col. No. Col. No. [HL5141] ...... 125 [HL5209] ...... 139

[HL5144] ...... 147 [HL5211] ...... 146

[HL5145] ...... 138 [HL5213] ...... 110

[HL5148] ...... 134 [HL5214] ...... 135

[HL5158] ...... 130 [HL5215] ...... 135

[HL5159] ...... 131 [HL5218] ...... 144

[HL5161] ...... 136 [HL5219] ...... 145

[HL5162] ...... 112 [HL5223] ...... 115

[HL5163] ...... 113 [HL5227] ...... 116

[HL5168] ...... 137 [HL5228] ...... 116

[HL5170] ...... 133 [HL5229] ...... 116

[HL5172] ...... 143 [HL5234] ...... 108

[HL5174] ...... 128 [HL5237] ...... 140

[HL5175] ...... 133 [HL5239] ...... 141 [HL5240] ...... 142 [HL5176] ...... 145 [HL5244] ...... 126 [HL5177] ...... 130 [HL5245] ...... 109 [HL5178] ...... 130 [HL5252] ...... 132 [HL5179] ...... 131 [HL5253] ...... 133 [HL5180] ...... 111 [HL5254] ...... 132 [HL5185] ...... 118 [HL5258] ...... 146 [HL5187] ...... 143 [HL5264] ...... 127 [HL5188] ...... 125 [HL5266] ...... 122 [HL5189] ...... 126 [HL5268] ...... 141

[HL5190] ...... 126 [HL5269] ...... 141

[HL5191] ...... 126 [HL5270] ...... 111

[HL5197] ...... 114 [HL5271] ...... 112

[HL5201] ...... 117 [HL5280] ...... 109

[HL5202] ...... 148 [HL5294] ...... 110 Volume 752 Tuesday No. 115 11 February 2014

CONTENTS

Tuesday 11 February 2014 Questions Legal Aid ...... 529 Economy: Growth...... 531 Food and Soft Drink Industry: Sugar ...... 534 Sudan...... 536 Reading Clerk Announcement of Successor...... 538 Business of the House Motion to Agree ...... 538 Refreshment Membership Motion ...... 539 Pensions Bill Order of Consideration Motion ...... 539 Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Green Deal) (Amendment) Order 2014 Motion to Approve ...... 539 Localism Act 2011 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2014 Motion to Approve ...... 539 Water Bill Committee (3rd Day)...... 540 Chilcot Inquiry Question for Short Debate ...... 605 Water Bill Committee (3rd Day) (Continued)...... 619 Grand Committee Defence Reform Bill Committee (3rd Day) ...... GC 229 Written Statements...... WS 47 Written Answers...... WA 107