FifthSession • Thirty-FifthLegislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of

Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs

Chairperson Mr. JackPenner Constituencyof Emerson

Vol. XLm No. 2 • 10 a.m., Thursday, June 23, 1994

JSSN 0713-9S6X MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-FifthLegislature

Members, Constituencies and PoliticalAffi Hation

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY. ASHI'ON,Steve Thompson NDP BARRE'IT, Becky Wellington NDP CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights Liberal CBRlLLI,M arianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan NDP CUMMINGS,Glen, Hon. Ste.Rose PC DACQUAY,Louise Seine River PC DERKACH,Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR,Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER,Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY,James, Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER,Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME,Gerry, Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James Liberal BNNS,Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST,Tim, Hon. Charleswood PC BVANS,Clif Interlake NDP BVANS, Leonard S. BrandonBast NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY,Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FR1BSBN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY,Neil St. Boniface Liberal GILLBSHAMMBR,Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC GRAY,Avis Liberal HBLWBR, Edward R. Gimli PC ffiCKBS,George Point Douglas NDP KOWALSKI, Gary TheMaples Liberal LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Liberal LATID..,JN,Oscar ThePas NDP LAURBNDBAU,Marcel St.Norbert PC MACKJNTOSH, Gord St.Johns NDP MALOWAY,J"un Elmwood NDP MANNBSS,Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE,Doug Burrows NDP McALPJNB,Gerry SturgeonCreek PC McCORMICK.Norma Osborne Liberal - McCRAE, James,Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH,Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON,Bonnie, Hon. River Bast PC ORCHARD,Don ald,Hon. Pembina PC PALLISTER, Brian Portage la Prairie PC PENNER,Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Nia.kwa PC RENDER,Shirley St. Vital PC ROBINSON,Eric Rupertsland NDP ROCAN,Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE,Bob TurtleMountain PC SANTOS, Conrad NDP SCHELLENBERG,Harry Rossmere NDP STEPANSON, Eric, Hon. KirkfieldParle PC STORIE,Jerry FlinFlon NDP SVBINSON,Ben La Verendrye PC VODREY,Rosemary, Hon. FortGarry PC WOWCHUK. Rosann Swan River NDP 27

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA

THE STANDING COMMITI'EEON MUNICIPALAFF AIRS

Thursday, June 23,1994

TIME -10a.m. Does the minister responsible for dealing with theNorth Portage Development Corporation have LOCATION-, Manitoba anopening statement? CHAIRPERSON - Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson) Bon. Linda Mcintosh (M inister of Urban Affairs): Mr.Chairperson, I have just a very brief ATTENDANCE-8-QUORUM • 6 statement for the committee, simply to indicate Members ofthe Committee present: that North Portage has made a very significant Hon. Mrs.Mcintosh impact on the downtown of Wmnipeg. We have thanks that we wish to express particularly at this Ms. Friesen, Ms. Gray, Messrs. Helwer, time to the board and staff of North Portage. As Penner, Reimer, Mrs. Render, Mr. you know the boards are going to be merging Schellenberg North Portage and The Forks, and those board APPEARING: members who have worked so diligently over the Mr. Kent Smith, General Manager, North years to ensurethe goodthings that are happening PortageDevelopment Corporation on NorthPortage are to be commended andthanks MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: areexpressed to them. March3 1, 1993, AnnualReport of the North We have with us this morning Kent Smith who PortageDevelopment Corporation is the General Manager of the North Portage and he hasa presentation,I believe,he will make today ••• to us. Do you wish to introduce anyone else you have with you? Mr. Chairperson: May the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs please come to order. This Mr. Kent Smith (General Manager, North morning the committee will be considering the Portage DevelopmentCorpora tion): Behindme, March 31, 1993, Annual Report of the North I have Paul Webster, ourSenior FinancialOfficer; PortageDevelopment Corporation. andMatthew Ba ldwin, a summer student atNorth Just prior to commencing consideration of this Portage. report, I would like to remind the committee that I would just like to apologize on behalf of our there is no legislativerequirement forthis report to chairperson. We are in a situation where the be referred to the standing committee. Hence, the chairperson for the last 10 years, Dr. Arnold standing committee has no requirement for Naimarlc,has just been replaced as of yesterday at adopting or passing this report. Committee City Council. The new chair of the North Portage members will have ample opportunityto address Development Corporation, who will also be the questions pertaining to the report and to the chair of The Forks Renewal Corporation, is Mr. business of the North Portage Development Ernie Keller. Neitherpeople were able to join us Corporation. When the committee has exhausted thismorning, and we have yet to electa vice-chair its consideration of the matter, the committee will for the board. So I am standing in in theirplace. risewithout passingthe report. Is that understood? Thank: you. Mrs. Mcintosh: Thank you very much, Kent. 28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

As has beenindicated, we do now have the full The downtown, however, has become more complement of the new board selected and in attractive, but revitalization of Winnipeg's thankingthose whoare outgoing, I wishto express downtown has not achieved its goal completely. sincerethanks to Dr.Arnold Naimarlc, who, as has The revitalization program has not attracted a beenindicated, couldnot join us this morning. He numberof residential people. It is people thatwill has a pressing engagementelsewhere. I know that make the downtown vibrant. People must be Mr. Smith will give us very good and detailed attractedto live in thedowntown area. information on what has been going on at North We have attracted people to work in the Portage over the year. downtown, but a greater effort must be made to I would like as well to thankthe outgoing board attract people to live in the downtown and also to members. They are Patricia Pbillips, Ted Mwphy shop there andbe attracted to come there for social andGary Steiman, who were on the North Portage reasons. Maybe with themerger of thisboard with Board. Gary Steiman will be remaining as The Forks, new directions and new ideas will be continuity on the new board along with Ashley implemented. The downtown is the heart of Everett and Jim Orzechowski as the provincial Winnipeg. It is most important to the city and nominees. province. It is a downtown with the heart of The other board members from the other two Winnipeg that gives tourists and visitors the first levels, asyou know this isa three-level enterprise, impression. have also been appointed, and so they now have I happened to be in Europe last summer, and I the full complement. They have yet to meet We noticed thatmany cities wereconcentrating on the literally had the chair ratified at City Council downtown area. WhatI saw in the downtown was yestenlay, so we are right at the very moment of people. I saw thedowntown vibrant, bustling with transition. Butwe what willbe giving you todayis people,very active.Cities such as Vienna, Geneva, what has gone on over the last year for your Munich were designed for people. The whole information, andwe willbe available for questions fo cusseemed to be on theheart of thecity. whenyou aredone. As we focus on the downtown, I realize the Mr. Chairperson: Thank you, Madam Minister. Would the critic for the official opposition party, problems. The provincial government has moved Mr. Schellenberg, have anopening statement? its Mines and Natural Resources out of the downtown area. This indicates that there is (1010) • possibly not the same commitment for the Mr. Harryenberg Schell (Rossmere): I am very downtown asthere should be. pleased to be here today as the official critic for The main thrust, however, has been physical. Urban Affairs. As members of the Legislature Buildings and structures have been erected. The realize, I wasjust electedin a by-election last fall. social aspect has been lacking that people relate to. So this is my first direct experience with this Thehuman aspectseems to be missing. I knowit is board'swork. difficult to revitalizea downtown, but I hope in our North Portage Development has had its success debate to follow we might discuss some of these as well as having faced some problems in the last issues. I am not saying that we have not been couple of years. Canada, we are told, has an successful, but new directions are needed to make overbuilt commercial capacity. There is no doubt theheart of Winnipegvibrant again. retail stores and other businesses have fa ced stiff competition, and this has causedsome turnover in In closing I would like to say I am very pleased North Portage. Despite some problems, private to meet with the North Portage Development investment has been attracted to downtown today. We look forward to the presentations and Winnipeg. Jobs have been created in the thedebate thismorning, and with these few words downtown, but vacant shops stillexist on Portage. I will pass the mike over to the Chair. June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 29

Mr. Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr. Mr. Smith: I guess just in terms of opening Schellenberg.Would the second opposition party, comments, we actually have had the first meeting Ms.Gray, have an openingstatement? of the new board without a chair. Actually Arnold chaired it yesterdayto get the boardappointed to Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. theboard of TheForks Renewal Corporation. Just Chairperson, I will have a very few comments from the staff point of view, we are because I am interested in what would appearto be enthusiastically awaiting the whole formal merger the slide video presentation, as well as having an of the two corporations, and we are looking at it opportunity to question staff from the North very positively. We believe it is going to make it Portage. easier for us. As Ms. Gray has suggested, it is I must say that I am pleasedthat we have finally maybe one of the barriers that comes down to seen an amalgamation of the North Portage helping us better revitalize . Development Corporation and ForksThe Renewal What I have in the way of a slide show here is in terms of the board. I know this wassomething sort of a brief summary of where we have been that ourcaucus badtalked about a numberof years over the last couple of years, some of the resultsto ago, so although there may be some transitional date and then to some extent some of our pains and growing pains, I think certainly it is a short-term objectives and as well some of the positive move so thatone board canwork together things that we think needto be addressedover the in looking at their short-, medium- and long-term longerterm. So ifI canjust get the lightsI will start objectives in regard to renewal and promotion of the show. the downtownand TheForks area. The North Portage Development Corporation I will be interested today in hearing from the hasactually been aroundfor about 10 years now. It staff as to specifically what they see as some of was established in 1983, and it has really bad a their short-term objectives, and what also do they vision of downtown onrevitalizati that has been a see as some of the barriers to reaching those long-term project, and probably the biggest objectives. We may be here for a long time. achievement that the corporations achieved is I would also be interested if the minister-she bringing private investment back into downtown indicated that the board bad been roved, app and Winnipeg. That investment has resulted in the that the other members had been appointed from following project: probably our most famous the other levels of government. I am wondering if project is Portage Place, which was developed by she has that information of those individuals, can Cadillac Fairview, with the skywalk connections she also share that with us at some point this to both Eaton's and The Bay. It also includes morning? Edmonton Court.

I will leave it at that because, as I say, I am Probably when most people talk about North interested in getting into a discussion of where we Portage Development Corporation what they are at with North Portageand where we want to be really visualize is the Portage Place project. going. Portage Place, though, is as big a project as it is, and obviously retail focused-there are also other Thank.you. elements in the project: the Imax Theatre, which Mr.Chairperson: Thank you very much. It is my we actually own and are responsible for the understanding that the officials of the North operation of; there are three full-sized movie Portage Development Corporation do have a slide theatres; as well as Prairie Theatre Exchange presentation to make, and I wonder whether you which contains a live theatre and a drama school. would want to make a few comments on opening Those elements were put in place to try to make beforeyou startyour slide presentation,and before PortagePlace morethan just a shopping centreand we allowthat , is thereunanimous consent to allow try to get activity happening not only during the for theslide presentation to be presented? [agreed] day but in theevening andon the weekends. 30 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

We also have some office components to the people-related human-service aspects, andthat has project. The Investors Group has located their beentargeted to downtown residents andothers . Canadian head office at 1 Canada Centre on our Thecoq>oration has alsoworked very hardwith site, and the Manitoba regional offices of the the propertyowners and retailers on the southside Information SystemsManagement Corporation, or of Portage Avenue. We have not just sort of put up ISM, which is a state-of-the-art computer facility the walls andsaid, you know, ourconcerns end on are also located on our site. This is just a view the north side of Portage Avenue. We have been along Webb Place . working with them to renovate storefronts and I thinkmost importantly, andit is interesting Mr. attract new tenants. Schellenberg hiton it in hisopening remarks, is the We have successfully reduced vacancies on the very importance that the corporation placed on south side of thestreet from ahigh of 15 vacancies residential development and creating a new back in 1991 to now down to two vacancies. This residential community downtown. We tryto direct particular project, which is the old Bank of that community to a variety of lifestyles, and we Montreal bu ilding on the south side of Portage now see that there are over 1 ,000 people living in Avenue, actually won the 1993 Heritage Wi nnipeg this neighbourhood, and that represents a major award,and we arevery proud of that project. increase in residential population. In fact in the years 1986 to 1991 there was a significant increase So what have all these efforts over the last 10 in residential population in downtown Winnipeg, years that North Portage has been involved in, and we were responsible for a third of that what have they really meant for downtown increase. Wmnipeg?

We have tried to create a more Fll'St, we have been responsible for one-quarter pedestrian-oriented street along The Promenade, of all the building activity in Winnipeg's which I think still needs some time and efforts to downtown since January 1, 1984, and thatincludes be developed fully, but it does present a much not only new construction but also renovation. nicerresidential flavour to this street as opposed to That is a result of the public private partnership justlooking at the backend of a shopping centre. that North Portage has developed over the last 10 years. With the difficulties in the real estate market, - that also Mr. Schellenberg mentioned in his If you look at the area just beyond our public opening remarks, you know there has been some private partnership, you look at things like the difficulty in all types of real estate development, renovations to Newport Center, the Relax Plaza and of course we had our problems back in 1989 Hotel, renovations that have gone on at The Bay with the Place Promenade project, and we now and Eaton's and now renovations that are own and operate that l>rojecl I thinkwe have got underway in Eaton Place, that number from some good news to share with you on that a little one-quarter goes up to 40 percent of the dollar later on . value of all building andactivity .

• (1020) There has been a lot of spin-off benefits to the North Portage project. Our recent pedestrian Rounding out the development is the newly counts show now that over nine million visitors, renovated downtown YM-YWCA, and that is an not the eight million that is shown on this slide, interesting project because not only doesthe-it is have visited Portage Place in 1993, and that is an a bricks-and-mortar project, which has some very increase ofmillion a people since 1991. nice healthand fitness facilities, but also out ofthat building there is carried on a wide array of I thinkwhat is most satisfying for us isthat there community outreach services. So it is trying to was a recent survey done in May of '94for a centre deal-and the Y has always in this community plan. Wmnipeggers were asked what they loved been trying to deal with some of the more most about downtown Winnipeg, and 40 percent June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 31

of them mentionedThe Forks, which is of course administrationcosts in linewith the realities of the quite a very attractive project, but 53 percent of economy in Winnipeg. That number now is up them said that what they liked most about $465,000as at theend ofMarch, 1994.So we have downtown Winnipeg was shopping at the made a substantial reduction, a 44 percent department stores,the skywalks or PortagePlace. I reduction,in administrativecosts since 1990. think that represents a real turnaround from the Fundamentally,the NorthPortage Devel opment early1980s. Corporation has conducted its activities through There are 2,700 employees now on theNorth working through other people, whether it is the Portage site,and I thinkmost importantly,we now privatesector or whetherit isorganizations like the have 1,000 new downtown residents. The other Downtown Business Improvement Zone that is thing,I guess,to look at is what have theseresults also very active and has its goal of revitalizing meant for the three levels of government that downtown Winnipeg. invested the money thatthey did, the $71 million We have very recently been working with the intothe project. Downtown Winnipeg BIZ on the Easy Streets We have seen a threefold increase in property program.We hope,in the next couple of weeks, to taxes to theOty of Wmnipeg which are now well introduce a program where shoppers can basically over $5 million. There are over $4 million in get evening and weekend parking for free in provincialsales tax, and $4 million in income taxes downtown parking garages. that are generated forthe province; $6 million in Now, this was anidea that we hadand we were incometax for the federal government. We know preparedto bring thePortage Place garage, which that therewas more $100,000in GST paid by than we operate, to the table, but because we wotked users of the padcing garages at NorthPortage last through the BIZ, we have now got every year, andwe estimateGST collectedis in theorder downtown garage participating in this program. of $5 million. Finally, the IMAX Theatre pays We thinkthat is goingto make a big differencefor over $100,000 in amusement taxes to the city attracting the shoppers back to downtown in the every year. evening andon theweekends. We have done all this, while at the same time Anotherproject that we have beeninvolved in is maintainingour financialself-suffic iency, and that theAir building,Canada andwhat we have seenis bas been a very important goal and a very the renaissance of thatbuilding over the last year. importantobjective of theboard. We have seen two out of three of the major new Oneof the reasonsthat we have been able to do office users that have come to Winnipeg over the that is theboard quickly realizedthat we could not lastyear, the CP RailCustomer ServiceCentre and depend just on real estate and land leases to the Unitel call centre, recently locate their offices support the corporation's activities. You will in theAir Canada building. Out of the ashes of Air notice that lease income, which fundamentally Canada's Gemini group has been formed a new comes from our base rent or our land resource, companycalled Advantis, whichis now ownedby really now only makes up 14 percent of our mM, incidentally the owner of the ISM building. revenues.We get revenuesfrom the theatre, we get It will be composed of not only the Gemini group revenues from parking and rental, which make up but Air Canada'sInformation Services people as a much moresubstantial share of the corporation's well as ffiM's network people. dollars that we get. What all that has meant is thatthe Air Canada We have also, on theexpense side, triedto keep building that had a significant amount of vacant our administration costs to a minimum. We are space, 60,000 square feet of vacant space, bad now at 6.7 percent in administration costs. We gone through a real bloodletting in terms of its have been, over the last number of years, since employees. They had downsized. There were far 1990, making a very concerted attempt to get our fewer people in this building than whenthe thing 32 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

was built in the early '80s. Now we see the two proponents who are interested in building building is brimming withpeople. There arenow disabled housing. There has been a proposal morepeople w orking in the Air Canada building called, it has been recently issued by Manitoba than have everworked in theCanada Air building Health, for 50 units of disabled housing, and we as a resultof theselocations. have two groups that are looking on the third floor Okay, what did North Portage Development of this pad area for that facility. We think that COJ:porationhave to do with this? Obviously there would be a positive addition to the site and also weresignificant efforts that were madeby boththe add to the diversity of uses. provincial andfederal governments to make some We have four other sites that we own on the of these developments happen. What we have North Portage area that still have yet to be done, we think, is we have provided a site, a developed.There are two sites that arejust northof mixture of uses that has been attractive for those One CanadaCentre between Colony andVaughan people to locate in downtown Winnipeg. These Street; one at the comer of Ellice and Vaughan; sorts of activitiescould well have located out inthe and the other right next to the Edmonton Court suburbs. We helpedpeople like CP Rail with their entrance to Portage Place on the Ellice Avenue parking requirements.We have also met with them side. to reassure them about the vitality of downtown. I think workingwith lots of people, we have helped The first building is 290 Vaughan Street which to make downtown attractive,to attractthese kinds housed the old publicpresses in the early 1900s. It of uses to the downtown rather than seeing them is rated as a Grade 3 historic building with moving out to the suburbs. designation likely, and our challenge hereis to try

• (1030) to find an economically feasible use that can support thecost of renovation which we estimate We have a number of projects that are to be about $2 million. The Y's metro officesthat underway. On the top three floors of the were on the mezzanine of this building have YM-YWCA, there is planned 20 units of special recently moved out. We have a building that is needs housing which will be done under the about 50 percent vacant, so we are actively trying auspices of the YM-YWCA Funding is going to to re-lease it. be providedby ManitobaHousing, and we will be working with the Bank of Montreal who holds the Here is a situation where I think if this building first mortgage on the building as well asthe Y and wereunder private ownership,it reallywould be in Manitoba Housing to finalize the details on that jeopardy. I guess because we are taking a little projectso constructioncan start. longer-term view and the board would like to see the restoration of this building as its long-term We have also got a much morefamous project, a hotel that is planned for the comer of Carlton and objective,we havebeen tryingto getthe thingto at Portage Avenue. I am sure that peoplewill want to least break even so that we canhold the thing over maybe talk about that in a little more detail later. the period of time, gradually make some As everybody knows, the project was audited by improvementsbut hopefully attract a privatesector the province under its review of the Immigrant user to support the cost of renovation. Investorprogram inManitoba, andno construction We have a 16,000square foot vacant site at 377 on this project will begin until the concerns raised Colony Street right behind the Sidney I. Robinson in the audit are satisfactorily resolved. building. We are looking east towards Portage As well, on the other end of Portage Place, we Place from Colony in this slide, and this is a site have theinfrastru cture to build anothertower. This that is probably more suitable forsomething other schematic shows an office tower, which is than residential development because of the probably very unlikely, given the office market in proximity to Colony Street and the shadows that the city, but we have actually been working with fall from One Canada Centre. So here is another June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 33

cballenge thatthe newboaro is going tobe facing Newspapers, and we are very close now to as to what to do withparticular tbis site. entering into a partnership agreement with Thomson to help take tbis building a few steps We also havethis smaJler site, 3,300 square fee t, further in the development process to determine a site which I call right at the elbow of The whatmight bethe mostappropriate use for the site Promenade just before it turns north to Ellice andfor the building. Avenue, and there is another small site that we have some opportunitiesfor doingsomething with. We have also been working with the Wmnipeg Right now, it is actually serving as an outdoorcaf6 SchoolDivision No. 1 on Isbister School, which is area for Portage Place in the summertime, and performing, actually, quite a great service in the Branigan's is now starting to make use of that as educationand training end of thingsin the fonn of

well which isnice to see. Adult Education Centre. Adult education for completing high school takes place in this Finally , we actually own the Raleigh building. There are over 2,000students that attend Apartments at the comer ofEllice and Vaughan yearly. The building is a provincially designated and right now that is providing affordable building. It was the first elementary school in the accommodation for 37 tenants andthe situation is province. quite economically viable. So we really do not have any pressureto do anythingwith this building You can see by the temporary classrooms that over the short term. We have been doing some the school division's needs are outstripping the modest suite renovations over the short term, and building's capability to support them. What we thatis quite a viable situation. would like to see over the longer term is the renovation, obviously, of a very grand historic I have been talking about a lot of building as well as a modest expansion to bricks-and-mortar projects, but there is a lot more accommodate some of the needs. to North Portage's efforts than looking at development opportunities. We have been very I was talking to the principal of the school involved in the work that CentrePlan is doing to recently. They do not even have the plugs andthe prepare a downtown plan for Wmnipeg.We have wiringthis in school to accommodate computers, put financial resourees into the CentrePlan process and education and training these days without to help make the public forum happen. We are taking advantage of some of the new technologies devoting staff resources to participate in the is a realchallenge. So I thinkover the long tenn we strategy teams, and we have been working with a would really like to see that building renovated, whole numberof different groups to comeup with andwe are working with the school division to try a shared vision for downtown and some concrete to help make that a reality. action plans for work underthis. As I said, revitalizing downtown is a lot more I think a lot of NorthPortage's future activities than bricks-and-mortar projects, and we believe are going to be governed by the recommendations that there are a lot of people and organizational that come out of the CentrePlan process, so we are things that have to be done as well as mere working very hard to see that to fruition. development. We have been working with the Downtown BIZ and Cadillac Fairview to promote We have also been looking at a couple of other a more positive image for downtown. We have sites. One of the most prominentsites in our area is sponsored an outdoor, out-to-lunch concert on The the Winnipeg FreePress Building. It is now vacant Promenade this summer, and we are actively becausethe Free Press hasmoved its operationsup looking at otherpublic event opportunities in our to Inkster. It is a very large building, 135,000 area. square feet on a 200,000-square-foot site. It is an enormous site. It will be quite a formidable We have worked with the Urban Idea Centre to cballenge to look at whatto do withthat building, sponsor an artists competition that resulted in this but we have been working with Thomson mural being erected on a park on the south side of 34 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Portage Avenue. Again, we are relying on other Shareholders' Agreement, so this is a longer-tenn groupsto takelead roles to help, andwh at we have type of thing and this is something that we want done is to try to provide staff and some modest our new boardto take a goodlook at. financialreso urcesto helpthem intheir task. I guess, just in closing, I want to say that we Aswell, we have been workingwith the BIZ and have come a long way. That has been in large part the province and the city on the whole safety and due to thesupport we have receivedfrom the three security issues for the Central Parkarea We have levels of government, but there are still a lot of actually hired an extra BIZ patrol member for this things thatneed to be done. While I thinkwe have summer to help put a little bit of BIZ patrol put in maybe some of the found ations for presencein theCentral Park area, which is actually downtown revitalization, thereis still a lot of work outsidethe downtown WmnipegBIZ boundaries. that needs to be done not just by us but by a collective group of people, both other property I mentioned the South Side Improvement owners, other organizations like the BIZ and, to a Program earlier. It is an effort that we have certain extent, thethree levels of government. enjoyed considerable success on. I thinkone of the problems on Portage Avenue is that unfortunately So I willjust close with that. Thanks. the problems of Portage Avenue do not end at (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Chairperson, in the Hargrave Street, which is right now where our Chair) mandate area ends. There are anumber of places along Portage Avenue that do not present a very The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): I thank positive image for downtown Winnipeg, and I Mr. Smith for that presentation.We willnow begin think a challenge here is to look at some of the with the questioning of the North Portage lessons we learned on the south side of Portage Development Cotparation. Avenue seeif lessons may be able to be and those Mr.Sc hellenberg: I commendyou for your work, applied to someof theother areasin downtown. yourvision. You have hadmany successes. Asyou We would like to look at, to study thefeasibility have said, you have come a long way. of expandingthe storefront improvement program. I have some concerns I would liketo raise.What This map, which shows Portage Avenue actually directions do you want to go to add a social running north to south with Portage and Main at dimension, a human dimension to this area? creen the top of the s and The Bay at the bottom Possibly. I am thinkingof housing, entertainment. -the black-lined area is actually the existing As you were speaking, you were talking about mandate area for North Portage Development partnership, and I appreciate that, but it seemed to Corporation. be more with business.I knowit is a business area; • (1040) therefore, you would have a greater relationship. But a partnership with maybe the people in the We are very interested in taking a look at a area and on the periphery-! never heard the South Side Improvement Program outside our words"aboriginal people." There are a lot of them mandatearea, but that would obviously requirethe in the downtown area. There is also possibly approval of the shareholders. We think that this security-but what direction are you going to add may be something that comes out of the a social dimension to attract people? You have CentrePlan activities. We believe that we can done some. I am not saying there has been no actually finance the cost of administering this success. I thinkyou have made greatstrides, but do programwithin our existingfinancial structure, but you have any other plansor strategy? what we would needare some additional resources from the three levels of government to help with Mr. Smith:That is always a challenge. I thinkwe the capital costs of any improvements that were have been working to tryto get some more what I undertaken there. As I mentioned, that is going to would call people-related activities, you know, require the amendment of the Un animous starting with the IMAX Theatre and Prairie June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 35

Theatre Exchange and now the recently opened money. I hate to discriminate, but these thingsyou YM-YWCA. mention are morefor people in thesuburbs. I think in the inner city,if we couldhave some activities I think there is a lot more that couldbe done. I for, may I usethe term, the lower-income people,I think you are right. We have a number of things think thatis lacking. I have seen many European that we are trying to do on the entertainment side. cities, you walk thereon a Sunday afternoon--and We have opened up a new restaurant on The they are very large cities andvery old cities-they Promenade, Signorino's. We have the new are jammed with people. They have made them Branigan's restaurantinterested in helping us with pedestrian friendly. I realize you cannot change an outdoor patio area on The Promenade to try to I just feel we are doing a lot get some moreactivity on the street. this in a few years, but of things for people in the suburbs, and inner city I think one of the challenges in Wmnipeg isthat people seem to be maybe leftout. thereare a lot of people in downtown Winnipeg, Mr.Smith: That isalways a struggle.I would like but they are not often very visible. They are not to maybe differ a little bit on our attractions to oftenon the street.They are inside buildings; they innercity residents.The shopping informationthat are in all other kinds of activities. What we are that, tryingto do is get them on the street.We have been I have seen that Cadillac Fairview has is by working with the BIZon Portage Avenue to look and large, the people that are patronizing the mall at some way that we can make Portage Avenue a are firstforemost and from the core area. There are more pedestrian-friendly street. I think Cadillac a lot of people with modest means that are visiting Fairview as well, on their Portage Place exterior, that centre. Certainly theYM- YWCA, a lot of the could be doing more to making that a much more users, fully one-third of their users are people that pedestrian-friendly exterior. I think what we have are getting assistance from the Y in order to take realized over 10 yearsis that we are not in control advantage of some of theprograms. of that whole process. I thinkthat thedevelopment does in factprovide You mentionedthe aboriginal community, andI some attractio n to inner city residents. I think oneof the realpositives of thenew boanlis acknowledge what you say, that we have not yet that we now have an aboriginal representative on got in the European context that plaza where you our boanl of directors, Mary Richard, and I think are getting people outon Sundays to go for walks. from a staff point of view we will certainly be Thatis, I think,a littlebit moreof a challenge. That wanting to use her as a resource to make some iswhy we arequite interested in the whole Central contacts in the aboriginal community. Therehave Park area. I think Central Parkcould perform that been some efforts. The Prairie Theatre Exchange role if we can resolve some of the safety and has an aboriginal theatregroup working out of the security concerns, and that is something that we PTE space, and Portage Place is becoming, I areactively working with theprovince and the city would say, a much more ethnically diverse as well as representatives from that area to try to shopping centre than it was when it first started improve the image and the reality of people's out. We would like to see it continue to move in feelings of safetyin thatarea. that direction. Mr. Schellenberg: I would like to say you have So I think there are lot of things that we can be done a very good job in developing a partnership doing, and we are looking for new opportunities to with businesses and you have attracted a lot, but I try to get more partnerships with a wider array of feel that partnership with the people in the inner people to see some thingshappen. city-but you have alreadydealt with that. Mr.Sch ellenberg: I appreciate that you say try to Now, you mentioned taxes in your presentation. make the downtown more pedestrian friendly, but Do these businesses get a tax break at all for as I hear you speak you mention IMAX and the starting up, or are they treated as other businesses Prairie Theatre Exchange, these things all cost in thesuburbs? 36 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Mr. Smith: They are treated just like everybody people on our site. Everybody from investoiS to else in the city. I thinkyou if talk to some of the residents who live in thearea, pluspeople like the individualdevelopments, they would say that they Adult Education Centre all participate and wo:dc may be treatedunfairly. togetherto share security concerns and take some The only exception to that is Prairie Theatre proactive steps to resolveissues. Exchange, which wasgiven a taxexemption under One of the things we have doneis that a number the Manitoba centennialcorporations act, but that of the developments have private security finns. is the only instancewhere there hasbeen any fonn We have co-ordinated the activities of those of propertytax forgiveness. security finns and notonly do theylook after the Mr. Schellenberg: How much public money has property, you know,to theproperty line there now, been spent on the NorthPortage? they are actually patrolling the street during the night which putssome eyes andears on thestreet . • (1050) We also sit on the downtown business safety and Mr. Smith: Originally the three levels of security committee, and we have been actively government provided $22 million each,and then participating with them. We were involved in the $5 million came out of the original Core Area establishment of the storefront police office on Initiativeagree ment back in 1981. So thatis a total Portage Avenue. We have also been wo:dcing with of $71 million. both the province and the city on a North That $71 million has been invested in a whole Portage/ safety and security task host of things. The largest place that the money force. We have been actively looking at security went was in land acquisition. Some 44percent we issues. estimate so farhas gone into land acquisition, and that could go well over 50 percent by the time all I think when you look at safety and security, the settlements are undertaken. there are some real issues that have to be dealt with. There is no question about that. But I think Then a substantial amount of money, about $10 when you look at our city in comparison to just million, went to infrastructure improvements, aboutevery other measure, downtown W'mnipegis whether that was on streets, sewers, waterlines. a very safe place to be whether that is during the Then the rest of the money went to lever a variety day or in the evening. I think the challenge is as of developments which we ssed whether it discu , much dealing with the safety andsecurity image of Theatre was Portage Place, whether it was Prairie downtown as it isdealing with the real issues. Exchange or the Y, and that money has basically been spent. In fact, our capital program now is in Oneof thethings that I wasvery heartened to see excess of $76 million, but that is money that we was the Chatelaine magazine where they recently have not asked for additional contributions from did a rating of the top 25 Canadian cities. as the shareholders. We have managed to use money W'mnipegcame up No. 6. They were looking at, that we have generated from some of our other what do women feel about safety and security. I activities to reinvest in the project. think if women do not feel safe we have not done our job, and Winnipeg came up very high in the Mr. Schellenberg: Probably another issue that survey that was done. It actually was sponsored by keeps people from going downtown issecurity. It the Institute of Urban Studies that did the wo:dcfor is a very difficult issue to handle. Chatelaine right here in Winnipeg, and we were Has anything been done to improve security? delighted to see that, in comparison to othercities, Mr. Smith: There are a lot of efforts that are Wmnipeg came up very high. underway at the moment on safety and security. The latest data we have seen for downtown I guessI canstart withour own project.We have Winnipeg is that we can hold our heads high, a safety and security committee that actually Paul because crime is actually much lower, for Webster chairs. It really is composed of all the example, in downtown Winnipeg than it is in June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 37

downtown Calgary. I thinkone of the problems is think Central Park is a real challenge. There we a lot of peopledo not-when I say that, I thinka lot have a fairly large residential community and a of peoplesay, wen, are you sure?Is thatright? But residentialc ommunitytbat has largelybee n putin we have thedata to backthat up. Thathas just been place as a result of the efforts of the Core Area recentlymade available. Initiative in the early '80s, webut do not yet have Ms. Gray: I am wondering if the minister could a real community organization in that indicate to us who the other board members are. neighbourhood. Mrs. Mcintosh: In addition to the three whom I I thinkthe realchall enge thereis to getresidents have already identified, we have Rudy Friesen organized to take on some of these actions, who is an architect in the city of Wmnipeg-heis because it is one thing for an organization like with Friesen and associates, I think it is Friesen­ North Portage Development Corporation to come Tokar architects-and Mary Richard, who is the in and say, yes, I think we need to make Central executivedirector of theManitoba Associationfur Park very safe, butunless we canget the residents NativeLanguages. She wason TheForks board. involved then I do not thinkwe have done our job. What I amhoping is in theWmnipeg Development So we have one from North Portage in Gary Steiman, one from TheForks inMary Richard so Agreement that there might be some room for we have a continuity from each board--we have some modest resourcesto beput in place forsome tried to keep one from each board on-andJanice community organization in neighbourhoods like Penner. Both Janice and Mary are also with CentralPark. CentrePlan. Janice Penner is with the Investors I think if you look at downtown as a series of Group. She is the manager of marketing services neighbourhoods, there are a number of them. We there. have a neighbourliood in our area as well, and Some of these people you will see involved in there is a residents association, Webb Place other areas downtown, CentrePlan, that type of Residents Association. They have been taking a thing-Joe Correia, who owns Bee-Clean, and veryactive role in safetyand security issues. South Christine McKee, who is head of city planning. of Broadway has another substantial residential She is a professor at the . community. I think those can be real She used to be a city councillor. James Smith is underpinningsof effortson that issueand, as well, with Burke Newman & Company, and he is a working with the businesses through the chartered accountant. So we have a mix of Downtown WmnipegBIZ is the other way to go. different backgroundsand areasof expertiseon the Getting those groups organized andtalking to one board. another, I think we can really tum this thing Ms. Gray: I thank the minister for that I had a around. number of questions,and maybe goingbackwards, • (1100) one of the latter issues that was being discussed Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I thank Mr. this morning is the issue of safety and security in Smith for that. Perhaps if I could just do a the downtown area. Mr. Smith referred to Central follow-upquestion then to theminister, Mr. Smith Parkand some work that was being donethere. talkedabout the needfor residents to be organized. I am wondering if he could indicate to us in I think that we might have agreement that in fact terms of the staff and/or the board, what is his there are probably a lot of goodhuman resources, feeling as to what really needs to be done, a lot of individualswho live in the downtown area accomplishedto address thesafety issues, notjust who, with a little bit of assistance, could actually in Central Park but in the downtown area develop a very strongresidents association. I know generally? we talk about community development officers, Mr. Smith: Maybe if I could start with Central andthat is something that we have sometimesseen Park and then work my way to the downtown, I in the past through governments, that we have 38 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITO BA June 23, 1994

community development officers who arethere to beenlooking at exploring. Initially they hadcome assist andpro vide a few resources to communities with a proposal on downtown volunteerpolicing, to actually getorganized andassist them along that worlcing withcommunities safety toget there. We path. We certainly have economic development hadmanaged to beable to say we hadan indication officers who worlt out in rural Manitoba who are of funding for that, but they have sincereturned to there to assist those communities in tenns of the say thatthey have a different proposal theywould economic development of their community. Inthe like to explore. That is currently being explored past, we have seen community development through my department and through the officers. Department of Justice, Minister Vodrey's I am wondering if the minister could tell us if department. there are any resources within any of the So that was just presented to me, as a matter of government departments that have specifically fact, earlier this week or last week, that their talked about community development? Has there original proposal they felt needed some been any thought to look at that to assist residents modification. We had indicated through the in the downtown area? Department of Justice that they maybe could get Mrs. Mcintosh: Itis a good question; a two-part some money for that, but we will be looking at answerto that question. I should first of all indicate what they will be coming back with, and we are thatwe do provide money to the City of W'mnipeg certainly prepared to discuss that as an issue of for them to do thattype ofthing should they desire. urban safety. They have some $30 million to $40million worth Of course right now we have the urban Green of unconditional grantingthat they are at liberty to Team which hasjust been up and announced. It is use in any way they see fit. slightly different It isnot necessarilyfor security, I know that some of the city councillors have but it is anarea where we could, should the city so indicated thisas an area of concem Now, whether desire, community groups so desire, make they choose to use some of their unconditional available to themselves summer students to assist money for that, of course, would be for them to with some of the community efforts which, when decide in communication withthe residents theof addressed, indirectly lead to an improved safety city they represent directly. And anything we do, condition. of course, we would do in tenns of discussions Those are some of the things that are there. One withthem . of my department, Jon Gunn in Urban Affairs, is The second part of the answer: I say that as working with the downtown community with one-thatthere money is provided to thecity from regard to safety. He continues to do that BIZ I which they can make decisions. This year, of thinkis taking leada role atthe moment in looking course, you know thatmoney wasincreased by 5.2 clearly at urban safety. percent over all their funding increase. They will As Mr. Smith has indicated, the North Portage also be getting an additional approximately $10 board also hasclose ties with BIZ, so we are sort of million of designated fundswhich should liftsome all linking together. Perhaps we will be successful of their obligations so thatthey have money left. in improving things andgetting community people In their unconditional money they can spend interested. It comes back, as Mr. Smith said, you more to their liking, because we are picking up have to somehowinspire people to want to become some of their other costs, their designated monies, involved and to want to be part of the solution as well. So they are in a very good position instead of just being aware of the problem, really vis-a-vis other cities in Canadathis year. opting in to help as well.

1be second part of the question is that I have Ms. Gray: Mr.Acting Chairperson, when the been dialoguing with the BIZ association. They Department of Urban Affairs and the minister is have beenin to seeme a couple times,and we have determining theamount of fundsgo that to the city, June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 39

arethere discussions that go along with the giving not want to be down there every day telling them of thosefunds terms in ofwbatthe province seesas exactly bow to spendevery penny theyhave . am to the designated a priority? I not referring On this one, though, we do have vehicles for funds. fundsbut theother communication as to what we see jointly as Mrs. Mcintosh: Not directly, because if it is desirous for the city. North Portage is oneof those unconditional money it is unconditional money. vehicles. It is a very good vehicle, I think, to bring Thisyear it is some $40 million that they are free up some of these issues. to spend in anywa y theychoose . Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, in the We will not dictate to them bow to spend that designatedfunds that the provi nce gives to thecity ,

$40 million, but we will, from time to time, be in are any of those designated fundsfor what I would conversations on thetypes of things Wmnithat peg consider social needs of residents of the city of needs. I, for example, attend the CentrePlan Winnipeg specifically, because we are talking committee meetings as oftenas Ican. There isone aboutNorth Portage and the downtown area, oris on I believe this morning, so there are things that it strictly bricks andmortar'l come up that I have to place as priorities over • (1110) getting to the CentrePlan meetings. Mrs. Mcintosh: I do not know if we are really When I go to those CentrePlan meetings then I getting off North Portage a little bit, but it does tie have the ability to make directimpact as minister, in a bit. The grants thatwe give for operations do as a member of that committee as to some of the not go specifically for social needs. Grants from things that I thinkmoney should be going to. It is othergovernment departments will. an indirect method of communication. We will You see right now the Department of Family also have other communications, for example, the Services, for example, with the Welfare to Worlc Handi-Transit issue where we had indicated to initiative and the grants that are given for social them a year and a halfago thatwhen theyasked if allowances; themillions that go into libraries, for we would go 50-50 direct on Handi-Transit, we example. Those types of monies that come from said no we would prefer that you took whatever government, some $153 million a year in total you need to fund it out of unconditional funding. from government-from the provincial That was relayed to themin writing. government, that is-go to the city. That is not They have chosen not to top it up with the including money that goes into the trilevel $400,000 they are asking us to provide, so agreements on infrastructure and on our joint indirectly I write back to themand say, you were agreements that we have withthe othertwo levels, told a year and a half ago you bad unconditional but from my department it is $74 million. So you funding you could send to things like can see that almost halfor half of the money that Handi-Transit, would you not consider taking the comes from the province to the city comes from $400,000 out of the $40 million that you have to departments other than Urban Affairs, and those spend it anyway you choose. I cannot dictate that do have specific special needs or social needs to them. That has to be their decision, their components in them. priority. Ms. Gray: I will not belabour thispoint, but I am I thinkI if started doing that, we already have, just wondering, then,if the minister could indicate through designated monies and through some of if sheis prepared to look at the area of community thejoint things where they will identify a list and development in the North Portage area. Does she we willpick things offthat list, which is again sort see it aspriority A? Does shesee herselfas raising of an indirectway of helping them choose-we do that issue either with her cabinet colleagues, if take the philosophy that, by and large, they were there are other departments that may have funds elected by thepeople to make decisions, andwe do available for that,or at theCentrePlan meetings, or 40 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

has it already been raised at the CentrePlan want to present to myself. There are so many meetings? people wanting to make presentations , and I quite Mrs. Mcintosh: I am presuming we are talking frankly thinkthat a numberof tbem would bevery about the same thing. We are talking about offendedif I came down and leftmy spot on the community development, and the discussion that table at the front and walked down into the led into thiswas utbansafety originally. audience and presented to the other two stakeholdeiS when we have ample opportunity to It was mentioned earlier by Mr. Smith that the meet and do meet on a regular basis to discuss WDA will be receiving commentary on this type these items throughthe shareholder agreements. of thrust. I have indicated that we have discussed -I have peiSonally, throughmy officewith BIZ­ The fact is that the three levels of government the mayor and I have discussed this type of are shareholdm at North Portage and The Forks, initiative. I believe CentrePlan, although I have not andnow the newboard which hasyet to acquire its been to all of the meetings, if not directly, real name, andwe have ongoing communications indirectly has talked about the need to have the with each other. community involved in developing their I think at the public hearings our job is to listen downtown. to those who do not have the opportunity to sit There have been public forums on the types of down with us on a regular basis andgive them the issues that the community needs to be looking at chance to provide the input that they might not andexperiencing and exploring regarding theheart otherwise have. It is very difficult to schedule in, in of the city or the downtown part of the city. So I this type of setting, people into our regular thinkthose discussions andways to address them working day. Setting aside some time and having have beengoing on in avariety ways.of round tables, we can get the thinking of a number of people in a concentrated period of time which I have not had a formal request from the city. I will verybe helpful. have not had a form alrequest from anygroup, or a formal request from or recommendation, other I do not really wantto speak for NorthPortage in than the discussions on utban safety, which I am terms of what their desires are. I can indicate to currently exploring with Downtown BIZ on a you, as you know, thatthe fullboard with its chair specific proposal for community development bas not yet had a chance to meet. They are brand officeiS, but I think in a myriad numbeiS of ways new. They have had a quick get-togetheryesterday the concept has been touched on in a number of with the membeiS. Theyhave not yet had a chance conveiSatiOns. to even be introduced to their chair, and I do not know what they would feel about coming next Ms. Gray: The minister may want to consider, week to make a full presentation to the three rather thanwaiting on the City of Wmnip eg, to do stakeholders with whom they meet as something to actually initiate from the provincial shareholdeiS. level and be proactive andlook at thewhole aspect of the social needs of the downtown area and the I do not know ifyou have heard any indication, whole aspect of community development. Mr. Smith, or ifit is sort of a question. I do not know whether the minister or her staff Mr. Smith: Actually, it is an issue that was will be presenting at the Winnipeg development discussed at yesterday's meeting as to what the plan. I am assuming maybe the North Portage board should do in regard to the public hearings Development Corporation is. Perhaps I will ask that are being held next week for the Wm nipeg Mr. Smith if in fact you plan to present at the Development Agreement. Thefee ling of theboard public hearings that are coming up next week. was exactly as the ministerhas suggested, that they Mrs. Mcintosh: I guess I could present it to arejust new. myself and take a lot of the public's time and We have actually prepared a report on future money to do it, but I do not know why I would activities of the North Portage Development June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 41

Corporation. I am certainly prepared to circulate need another hotel in Winnipeg and in the copies to this which we presented to the downtown? shareholders underthe auspices of the old boardin • (1120) December of 1992, and the issue of safety and (Mr. EdwardHelwer, ActingChairperso n, in the securityin Central Park isvery much a part of this Chair) report So theview fromthe board wasthat a lot of thesethings have beentabled with theshareholders Mr. Smith: There have been a number of studies and is, probably given the board's newness, not on theneed for a hotel, starting I guess, firstwith appropriate that we make another submission as the 1983 task force report by the three levels of partof thepublic hearingsweek. next government that saw the need for a full-service hotel, another full-service hotel in the North Ms. Gray: The minister is correct. I guess what I Portage area. was really wanting to know is what type of initiatives or conversations, which probably the In 1989, we finally wentfor out proposalcall for minister cannot answer, willshe be having withthe hotel development and we actually had a number other levels of government, i.e., the city and the of submissions and Lakeview was the successful federal government in terms of the Winnipeg proponent. They did do a study at the time, back in 1989, on theneed for hotel development I thinkit Development planand what theimpact isgoing to that is and be on North Portage and the downtown area is fair to say there quite a bit of debate controversy right now about whether in fact a new becauseme, to when we arelooking at this whole hotel in downtown Winnipeg would be a good downtown area, if we do not look at the social thing or a bad thing and I think ifyou own an needs of that area, I do not think we are going to existing hotel in downtown, you probably are not addressof all theproblems. very excited about the factthat a new hotelwould I would ask Mr. Smith-in his slide be builtin your back yard. On theother band, there presentation, he talked about that one-quarter of isreally no all-suite hotelin downtown Winnipeg, thedoJW- value of thedowntown building activity and the all-suite hotel that does exist, out at the since'84 could beattributed to NorthPort age, and Radisson out at the airport, is by far the then there had been an increase. In terms of best-perfonninghotel in thecity . one-quarterof thedollar value,what exactly would I am sorry this is such a long answer, but there that be in dollars? Do you have that figure? are anumber of other issues. The investors have Mr. Smith: Actually the figure isprobably in the actually-it was reported widely in the press report thatjust is being circulated. What we used, -have also commissioned a report very recently the only measure that we had of building activity on the need fo r another hotel from a private in Winnipegthat was at allreliable , wasthe Oty of investment point of view. I actually talked to the Winnipeg building permit data and they have author of that report and in fact he was kind values that are placed on building pennits which enough to send me a copy to look at I think the are issued. Unfortunately, the dollar value for conclusion from theinve stor's point of view isthat building permits does not necessarily reflect the there is a small return on their investment on this total cost of construction, but the numbers for the project and I think quite a challenge to get their actual hard construction costs are inthere I and do investment dollars out in certainly the short term. not have thatnumber right at my fingertipsbut it is So, again, I thinkit isa complicated issue. in that report which you have there. It is, I think, Ourview is that ifthere people are willingfrom Appendix 1 andyou could check thatfigure. the private sector to invest in a hotel, aslong as we Ms. Gray: You probably get asked this question are not providing any public money, we are all the time, but in terms of this project, the preparedto letthe market determine the needfor a RamadaInn that being is looked at, I guessmy first hotel. Ifthere arepeople therewho are preparedto question is, is there analysis to suggest that we invest theirdollars in the project, thenwe do not 42 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

see any reason why it should not go forward. Ifon lists. They are fully occupied, doing very well. In the other handthey are looking for public dollars fact, Fred Douglas is now actually talking about to make the thing happen, we do not believethat is the potential for another proj ect Of course, very appropriatein the context of downtown. recently the Lions Club announced a new Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I suppose the life-lease project on theold WtnnipegTribune site, concernwould be,and this may happenregardless which again we see would be a very positive of what commercial developments go downtown, addition to downtown Winnipeg ifthey can make that go. ifthe hotel ever gets offthe ground and is built, the viability of it. We do not want to see more vacant Incidentally the Lions Club were one of the spaces in downtown Winnipeg because of poor people, the proponents, on our original seniors investment or a project thatwas not well thought housing proposal call. While they could not do it out, but on the other hand that may happen with on our site , it is nice to see them staying private commercialinvestments andsometimes we downtown. do not always have control over that. Ms. Gray : Mr. Acting Chairperson, you I just had a couple of questions onthe residential mentioned, Mr. Smith, the special needs housing aspect of downtown and one would be--and it project that is being contemplated in the Y may be in the report-what is the vacancy rate building. I just wondered if you have a little bit right now in downtown Winnipeg in terms of more information on that. What are you referring residential? What would be the comparison of that to whenyou say specialneeds? with the overall vacancy rate in Wmnipe g? Mr. Smith: The project is actually the last unit Mr. Smith: I am relying a little bit on memory. allocation from CMHC under the nonprofit You askedme the question-and I just saw on my housing program. They are the last units that desktoday a report from CMHC which may have remainunbu iltunder thatprogram which has since more updated information which I did not get a ended. chance to look at beforecoming-but thevacancy The 20 units of housing are primarily targeted rate in Winnipeg, it has been a pretty soft towards three groups, I believe. One is the residential marlcet The average vacancy been has physically disabled, another is the mentally in the order of about 6 percent, with downtown challenged, andanother is actually providing some anywhere between 10 and 12 percent It has been a more permanent accommodation for people tough residential market downtown. coming out of Osborne House. I am not sure

There are a number of reasons for that in that the exactly what the mix of those numbers are, but downtown construction, which islargely high rise, those arethegroups thathave beentargeted. catersto a group of people thathave beenattracted One of the reasons it hastaken so long isthat we of late into the house buying mmet with low have a complicated site, in that the project-we interest rates and with CMHC 's new 5 percent own the land under which the Y building is. The down payment. Bank of Montreal has the first mortgage on the We have been working very hard on our building of some $5 million. What Manitoba particular project, which isPlace Promenade. The Housing is trying to do is to try to fund the top vacancy rate thereis in theorder of about 5 percent three floors. Inorder to do that they are looking to and trending downward. About sixmonths ago we try to get s001e adequate security on that money, were actually aslow as 1 percent, but we have seen which is in theorder of about a milliondollars . a little bit of erosion of that over the last few One of the challenges we have is to try to months. It is now going the other way, so we are rationalize the priorities of the Bank of Montreal comfortable with that. vis-�-visManitob a Housing. We are working with, Thetwo seniors, the twolif e-lease projects,Fred it seems, like dozens of lawyers to tryto deal with Douglas and Kiwanis,both have extensive waiting thisissue. We arehopeful that we canresolve these June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 43

security concerns so that the project can get space they have. We also see the trend toward the underway. telecommuting or the virtualoffice, those kinds of things againare difficult challe nges for downtown. Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Olairperson,this may be anunfair qu estion, but I am wondering-thisis a Onthe other hand, you know, I think thereare general question.The North Portage Development some very positive thingsI as mentioned withthe Corporation, what do you see as your major Air Canada building. We have built up an barriers in terms of things that you need to infrastructure here and we have invested in an overcome to reachyour objectives? I do not know infrastructure here that has_ helped to make it still whether government bureaucracy-! am not attractive for businesses andfor residents to locate saying this is a reflection of the present in downtown Winnipeg. I think when you can government, I am just talking about governments createthat great environmentthat is really helpful. in general and bureaucracy. I would be interested I mean, projects like The Forks and the riverbank in your comments about the three levels of walkway and those kinds of things in downtown government, as well, in tenns of other things that really very much make a difference in tenns of they should be doing differently or could be that makingdowntown a more attractiveplace to work, would assist you inyour work. live andplay. We have been blessedin Wmn ipeg Mr. Smith: These are very tough questions. I with an arts and cultural community that by and guess when I look, it is sort of more generally, large isdowntow n. Thethriving of thatcommunity what are the barriers to successful downtown very much helps the downtown. revitalization? I think there are a number of When you look at governments, I mean, from significant oneslargely relatedto lifestyle choices theprivate sector'spoint of view,the thingfirst the that people aremaking. You can look in any field private sector tends to look at are property taxes. right now, whether it is residential development When you are looking at comparing downtown and movethe of people to not only suburban isnot with other areas, the trend to market value such anissue any more asit isalmost outside cities assessment we see in the long tenn as good for is a concem Ofcourse, the fartherpeople away are downtown becauseover time I thinkit is fairto say from downtowns the more difficult it is to attract them. Ifyou look, thatthe is residential side. that downtown was perhaps penalized under the old form of assessment in terms of looking at You look at the retail and the office side, the Eaton's or The Bay compared to or St. retail side, we are moving toward retailing which Vital Centre. With market value assessment, we seems to be more the so-calleddiscount, big-box see that in the long term moving in the right typeretailers, whether it isa Costco, whetherit is a direction. Wal-Martor others.That really presents some very major challenges for a downtown thatis organized One of the other areas, obviously, with the around traditional department stores. economy being what it is and people trying to make the most of money, I mean, when the • (1130) province has to make choices betweenhealth care I thinkyou if look at the North Portage efforts, expenditures versus officespace expenditures it is very much we were there to try to strengthen the difficult to argue priority in those situations where role of The Bay and Eaton's in tenns of their the trend toward getting cheaper office space so traditionalretail share of the market. Thathas been that you can spend more money on some of the an uphill fight given, I think, the more general other things that you areresponsible for doing has trendtoward big-box retailing. this been a practice not only-it has been started in You look thenat the office market andthere has corporate Canadabut it isnow moving over to the been verymuch recently a downsizingin corporate governments. Unless we can continue to offer Canada in theoffice market We have seena lot of competitive deals with other places then on cost major companies reducing the amount of office alonedowntowns may notwin out. 44 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

I thinkthat is a realchallenge for allthe property section of downtown that is perhaps lumbered at owners, for BIZ, for North Portage Development themoment with a hotel that hasnot been built and Co1p0ration, for The Forks to keep woddng on. It is closely related to Cadillac Fairview , a major would be nice to go back to the old world where financial co1p0ration in considerable difficulties. costs were not themost important things, but with So I am interested in how that is affecting the the economy being what it is, government deficits North Portageoverall operations, but themortgage being what they are, it is becoming a very first important factor. Downtowns have to be able to Mr. Smith: I was waiting for a question on compete. Cadillac ew.Fairvi There certainly seems to be no There are a number of, I guess, barriers and shortage of press coverage on Cadillac Fairview. issues that make it sometimes more cultdiffi for This just represents the press coverage since downtowns to compete than other areas. Where literally Marchon the difficulties that the company our infrastructure costsarehigher, costs tendto be is in bothnation ally and specifically with Portage a little higherdowntown. There tends to be a little Place. It is a matter of very real concern to North bit more money that needs to be spent on trying to Portage Development Corporation. The Portage create a more attractive environment, those kinds Place project is certainly a critical project to the of things. I guess that certainly is one of the overall development, and we have been watching challenges. these restructuring negotiations very carefully. Ms.Gra y: I thank Mr. Smith for his responses. I I guess it is important maybe just to spend a have some furtherque stions, but I know thatMs. minute or two setting the context for those Friesenwould like toask some questions, so I will difficulties, because there is a problem with tumit overto her. Cadillac Fairview nationally. As most people Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I would like to know, it is owned by a consortium of pension thank the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) funds. It has about a $1.1-billion bank loan which for that. I dohave some questions.wanted, I firstof the company negotiated when the developer was taken private whole reason for the all,to congratulate you on the annual report. It is, I in 1987. The assume, quite cheaply produced,but there is a lot difficulties of CadillacFairview are asresult a of a cross ofinfonnation here. decline in realestate values a the country.The tennof their loanwas to keeptheir debts below 75 I wanted to look at some of the issues coming percent of the appraised value and that condition out of mortgage loan advancements the and and was not met back inFebruary. commitments, particularly relating to Cadillac Fairview. (Mr. Chairperson in the Chair) I am on page 14 under (b) Portage Place Retail I think it is important though to realize thatwhat Complex. Cadillac Fairview has been in the press happened, what triggered this problem was a for a considerable time, andobviously it is in some technical default under their loan agreement. difficulties. We do not know what the outcome of CadillacFairview had not missedany payments to those difficulties is going to be, but I notice that their banks or on any of their mortgages up until there are five renewal periods, each of five years' the time that that technical default occurred. Now duration, of that mortgage, and one of them is as a result of that technical default, the bank's coming up soon, 1995. response was to tighten Cadillac Fairview 's operating line and required each project to pay its I wondered what your negotiations were like own way. with Cadillac Fairview at the moment and how their financial difficulties were affecting, first of Now what have been the implications for all, the balance sheet of North Portage, and, Portage Place specifically? Well, Portage Place is secondly, I think-what should I say?-its public one of the projects that is in so-called negative presence, becauseeffectively we have got a major cash flow. It is one of about 12 projects. The June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 45

reasonit is innegative cash tlowis that there is not IMAX theatre, we generate revenue out of that. enough money that is being generated out of Those leases, ourparking lease , for example , will Portage Place to pay the debt service costs. There be unaffected in sort of a worst-case scenario is a debtof $56 million on theproject. The interest where thebondholders decideto take possession of rate is 11 percent and the debtmatures onMarch Portage Place and take over ownership for the 25, 1996. Because they have not been able to do project, which is their ultimate remedy in this that, to cross subsidized projects like they were particular situation. We do not seethat worst-case before , that debt is not being paid. So the situation being generated, but that is always a bondholders are now in default, and they are possibility. working with Cadillac Fairview to come up with a We do not really know yet what the restructuring plan. bondholders ' position is going to be. We • (1140) understand a debtrestructuring has plan been filed It is ironic that this is all happening now, with them. We understand that negotiations are because actually Portage Place's perfonnance has underway and there may be some amendments to actually improved quite a bit over the last couple that plan. of years. The revenues for Cadillac Fairview are What we do know is betweennow and 1997,40 actually up at Portage Place over 6 percent year percent of the leases inPortage Place are going to over year, and that trend seems to be continuing this year. There have been some major new expire,and unless there areefforts made to start to lease-ups-Kids Are Worth It, Branigan's-and I renegotiate some of those leases, you know, think it is nice to hear that thebondholders have Portage Placeis in danger of seeing theirsituation not in any way stood in the way of seeing tenant deteriorating. I thinkit is goodto hearthat I think improvement allowances being extended to those all the players-the bondholders, Cadillac projects. Fairview and ourselves-are very much seeing that as a very important time period, and If you look at our financial situation, the everybody is working towards getting a plan in fundamental thing we depend upon from Portage place that can see a successful releasing plan for Place is a ground lease payment, which we get thecentre . quarterly in advance from Cadillac Fairview. Our ground lease payment ranks in priority over the We believe that we have a role to play in those bondholders'deben tures,which arently, curre as I negotiations. We think it is important though for mentioned, not being serviced. We are totally the bondholders to establish their position first current . Thelast payment wasdue June 17 and we before we sit down with them, but we expectthat received Juneit 16. So they aretotally current with will happen in the next month or two, and I am their ground leasepa yments, and we do not expect very optimistic that the restructuring negotiation that situation to change. will be successfully concluded and Cadillac Asthe notes to the financial statements indicate, Fairview will continue to operate thecentre. there isa $27-m illion mortgage that we have set up Ms. Friesen: I was specifically asking about the with Cadillac Fairview that ranks behind the renewal date that is coming up in a year. What debenture, so it is a lower priority. That $27 implications do you expect from that? million represents moneythat we usedto construct things like the parking structure, shell space for Mr. Smith: I am not just sure what renewal date PTE and IMAX,support structures for the Y and you are talking about. thetwo tower pads, the ovexpassesand some of the Ms. Friesen: It says, Cadillac Fairview is leased public amenity spaces. land with five subsequent renewalperiods, each of A lot of thatmoney we generate revenue out of. five years duration. Things like the parking garage and, of course, the Mr. Smith: Oh, okay, yes, all right, I see. 46 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Ms. Friesen:I waslooking at datesto anticipate in Ms. Friesen: Could you tell me the amount of the next year. those two sections of the lease payments and the taxes, and howdo you cover-! gather it is being Mr.Smith: Actu allythe initial tenn of thele ase,it covered, from what you said-subleasing the air may not be very clear from these financial rights. statements, but the initial tenn of the lease is 50 years,so therenewal is 50 years from 1985, so that Mr. Smith: The lease payments are $20,000 it is2035 when that lease comes up. So there is no quarterly, andthe property taxesare approximately renewal. $30,000.

The only major renewal, and I am sorry I Ms.Friesen: Theproperty taxes are continuing to thought you were talking about, was the factthat be paid by Lakeview? The lease payments for the the debentures mature in '96, and we have a quarter, which quarter has been deferred or is it number of leases thatare coming up in the mall in twoquarters? '97. Those definitely are things that are being Mr. Smith: We have deferred the payments from looked at but do not directly involve North January 1, 1994, andthe property taxes, obviously, Portage. aredue on June 30. We expectthem to be paid.

Ms. Friesen: My other question was about the Ms. Friesen: Since it only went to court two days impact of the Lakeview project, which is before ago, why were the payments deferred since the courts at the moment Whatthe are costs to the January 1? corporation of having that project now before the Mr.Smith: Well, thediscussion on-and this was courts and presumably delayed for some time. I a matterobviously for the boardto make a decision notice thatthe cotpOration, forexample , is leasing on-the meetings with both Lakeview and the the air space over thatfootp rint. What is the price investors had been going on for quite some time. of that? Are you continuing to pay that while it is We knew that there was no agreement. We before the courts and before the building gets suspected a court case would be an inevitable finished? consequence, but we knew that there certainly Mr. Smith: Well, the lease that we have with were a number of issues that had to be resolved. Lakeview, which was signedback in August 1992, That, of course, was coupled with the knowledge actually does not require-thereis no cost to North that all the investors' fundshad beenfrozen by the Portage. In fact, quite the opposite, Lakeview has province and,in fact, it stillremains that way. been making lease payments and covering The view of the board was thatit wasreally in property taxes on that padarea since the lease was nobody's interest to try to create more problems signed, in fact, even before the lease was signed in forthe investors thanthey already had. We felt that the fonn of option payments. we could defer thepayments and let us waitfor the The debate, I guess, and now court case which outcome and let us see. All of our financial was launched the day before yesterday by 156 of projections had beenbased on receiving noincome the investors is going to take some time to resolve from the hotel. I mean obviously we would love to itself. Asfar as costs go, there areno costs to North have the income, but it is not going to jeopardize Portage as such, and we have met with the corporation's financial situation. representatives from the investors. Their view is Ms. Friesen: Could I ask the minister what was very much, they would like us to keep this deal the date of the freezing of the Lakeview accounts? alive until these court issues are resolved. Whatwe Mrs. Mcintosh: It was at the end of December have done is thatwe have deferred lease payments 1992. that Lakeview was making. We have deferred those to the end of the year, but we have still • (1150) required Lakeview to cover property taxes on the Ms. Friesen: And so immediately following that site so thatthere areno costs to the cotpOiation. there was a board discussion with Lakeview? Is June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 47

this recorded in the minutes of the board, the cost for that-for the east tower from Cadillac deferring of thepayments? How was that handled Fairviewfor a tennof 42 years, threemonths, with ina fonnalway? fivesubsequent renewal periods , et cetera. Mr. Smith: Well, there had actually been many Do I assume thenfor that the 42first years there board meetings on the Lakeview Hotel project is no cost to the corporation, thatafter thatthere is over the last couple of yeatS;but, yes, it was dealt the potential for a new agreement where there with fonnally at a board and there were fonner mightbe costs? resolutions passed related tothose defennents of Mr. Smith: In fact, the sublease period that you payments. We alsohave a legal agreement in place see, the 42 years with the five subsequent renewal between the developer and ourselves covering a periods, the renewal periods are at our option, not number of issues, not just defennent of payments. at Cadillac Fairview's option. Actually, they are Also, North Portage, first and foremost, is tieddirectly intothe length of time running on the concerned about the viability of the project, ground lease, andof course at theend of 75 years, making sure thereis enough money, also making Cadillac Fairview is requiredto turnover Portage sure that there are in no way any legal Place and the ground lease for $1 to us. So it impediments betweenthe investors andthe general becomes our property. After that period runs, partner, which is CNHN, which is a company of Cadillac Fairview hasno interestin Portage Place Lakeview. So we have sort of covered ourselves any longer. every which way by Sunday as part of getting thesedef errals, to make surethat once thisthing is Ms. Friesen:Then when we come to thenext date, sortedout thatthere (a)is sufficientmoney for it to January '94for Lakeview,I assumethat Lakeview go ahead, (b) that all thelegal issues have been is going to be negotiating with-January '94 you resolved, and (c) that the investors are committed said? Sorry, let me go backover thosedates. When to going forwardwith theproject. doesthe lease then startto flow again? Ms. Friesen: In the original agreement with Mr. Smith: Now speaking technically, thelease is CNHN/Lakeview, at which point do the lease still in place. There isnothing thathas changed in payments flow again?Is it dependent, for example, om agreement withLakev iew. Allwe have doneis uponthe unfreezing or the thawing, I suppose, of merely deferred payments that were deferred the account by theprovince? starting January 1994 and have been deferred for Mr. Smith: The payments have been deferred till the yearending inDecember. So thelease remains December 31, 1994, and after that date we are in full force and in good standing. We have the expecting to be paid There are no preconditions opportunity at the end of Decemberto completely beyond the date. re-evaluate the situation again and decide what -you know, the boardwill have to decide based Ms. Friesen: What is the cost of the sublease of on theinform ationbefore it what thebest c ourseof the rights,air whichI assumeyou must continue to action to take at that point is, and the court case pay, oris that not thecase? may or may not be resolved by that date. Mr. Smith: No, it is not the case. As part of the Ms. Friesen: Do you have the option then in original agreements with CadillacFairview, North December of '94 to end the agreement completely Portage has had the right to take backthe airrights with Lakeview? from Cadillac at no cost for this development So we arenot paying anycost to Cadillac Fairview for Mr. Smith: We do if the terms of the mentagree having the airrights registered. are not honoured by Lakeview, and one of the Ms. Friesen: Well, I am just puzzling over then terms would beto make thepayment the section in your report which says under Hotel: Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chaitperson, in December '94, the corporation has subleased the airrights-and I presumablythe Lakeview Corporation has to deal presume fromwhat you aresaying now there is no with the new board, not with the North Portage 48 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

entity. Do you have any sense yet from the new over a year after the original date of boardof how legally thisgoing is to bedealt with? announcement.

Mr. Smith:The whole issue of the amalgamation Mrs. Mcintosh: You are not talking about the and the legal framewOik for the amalgamation is actual merger of theboards; you aretalking about being discussed, and I knowboard the of directors the work that the boards do. Yes, I believe I will want to consider that very carefully. We indicated this at our last meeting as well. The believe the amalgamation can be done in a way announcement was made, a federal election that puts the two corporations together but has no occurred,and everything went on hold. Thefe deral impact whatsoever on the past deals that each election has now taken place; a new minister is in corporation has entered into. I know our lawyers place; the board members have now been selected; willbe ensuring thatin fact happens. legal opinions have been sought. Thething is now Ms. Friesen: I understand that both boards and in place. their staffhave been worldng on the amalgamation Ms. Friesen: What is the new mandate of the since March of '93 when it was first announced. board? How hasthat beendefined? Now I asked at The Forks meeting what the process was, what the legal process was going to Mrs. Mcintosh: My understanding, when this be, and we are now talking about another task decision was made, was that-! was not at that force of boards to look at this. I would like to meeting; of course, I was not ministerthen. I know address this tothe minister. Whaton earthhas been this is the matter of record that the three happening over the last year? Why has it taken a shareholders had agreedthat the mandates would year to get to a stage wherewe are now lookingat not change. The merger will address the exactly thesame process again? administrative cost of running the two corporations. I believe the member knows this, Mrs. Mcintosh: I am not quite sure what you because I am sure that the member has checked mean by exactly the same process again. What intothese things. process are you referring to? The rationale for the merger is not to changethe Ms. Friesen: The process of the legal mandates but to reduce overhead costs of amalgamation of the board. Thiswas announced a administering two parallel systems, of two sets of year ago. boards, two rentals of places for the boards to Mrs. Mcintosh: Yes. meet, and all of those things that I think she Ms. Friesen: A task force was supposed to have probably knows. worked on it for a year. Why is theminister, why is • (1200) neither board able to tell us how this is going to happen after a year of study? Mr. Chairperson: I would like to interject here momentarily and ask what the will of the Mrs. Mc intosh: How what is going to happen? committee is,because the hour istwelve o'clock. I Ms . Friesen: How the legal amalgamation of the wonder whether you want to adj ourn now or two boardsis going to happen. whether the committee wants to arise or whether Mrs. Mc intosh: I think I answered that at The you want to continue with discussions. Forks board meetingwhen I said thatby resolution Mrs. Friesen: I would like about 15 more of the newboard the previous board of TheForks minutes. will become amalgamated with the current board of North Portage, and that will be done by Mr. Chairperson: About 15 more minutes? resolution. It willbe done. Ms.Friesen: Yes. If thatis reasonable? Ms.Fr ies en: I am now hearing from the board of Mr. Chairperson: Isthat agreeable to you? North Portage that infact there aremore complex

issues and that amalgamation hasnot yet occurred Mrs. Mc intosh: Yes,that is fine. June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 49

Mr. Chairperson: We will proceed then and bring those elements together and in conjunction continue thequestioning till quarter after 12. with CentrePl� I think the timing is very useful, and I thinkthere opportuniis an tyhere for Mrs. Mcintosh : Just to ide ntify some of those a different kind of corporation, not two parallel costs because maybe that will help identify the corporations but a different corporation with a rationale for themerger. We have accountants; we different mandate which might be able to address have lawyers; we have per diems; we have office some of those overall plans of downtown space; we have clerical staff; we have office Wmn ipeg. supplies, fax machines-anumber of things. Allof those costs can be reduced by thismerger. Mrs. Mcintosh: I suppose I misinterpreted what you said because I do considerThe Forks part of There was no merger in terms of changing our downtown. Ifboth boards have a mandate to mandates. I have not heard of any attempt to do something unique and special for the change the mandate of the boards that are in downtown, I thought they did. existence. If the member has now informed me that The Ms. Friesen: What is in my mind when I am Forks is not part of the downtown, rather pulls talking about that is essentially the role of two people from the downtown, then I suppose we differentcorporatio ns: oneto dealwith downtown; would have to examine that mandate. theother to deal with a project, however successful it bas been, which is to pull people from I have often heard people say, including some downtown. urban planners, that TheForks did much to draw people from the suburbs and the outer lying It seem s to me when you look at the overall regions to the downtown, which I believe is goals of things like the Core Area Initi ative or CentrePlan, for example, which is to develop a something Mr. Smith had identified as people wanting to live out not in the of downtown plan for Winnipeg, and I can see why further and heart I North Portage is very much involved inthat , how the city. had considered The Forks part of the downtown so perhaps we are seeing it a little isthe new corporationwith two separate mandates going to look at that? It seemed to me that there differently. was the possibility now for a new kindof mandate I perceive the mandate of both of these boards whichmight address thewhole issueof CentrePlan -thenew board, which as I say hasyet to acquire on a generaldowntown planning for Winnipeg. a name-to be in a nutshell and one very simple Mrs. Mcintosh: I am just seeking clarification. phrase, to enhance and enrich the-now, I do not We havetwo projects: one designed to pull people know whether I can call it downtown anymore downtown, and the other designed to pull people now that I have discovered that there is not a from downtown. Could you explain what you downtown-that areaof ourcity which isbounded mean by that? by the suburbs. If that is not the perception that is held by others, I would be quite willingdiscuss to Ms. Friesen: What I thinkamongst urbanplanners it with them. If that is not the perception held by who talk about Winnipeg, one of the obvious those who are on theboard, I woold besurprised. elements is that it is a very spread-out downtown, that it has three or four focuses, the Exchange Ms. Friesen: It was not my intention to get into a District,North Portage andThe Fork s. I did not say debate with the minister. My intention was to that The Forks was designed to pull people suggest that there was an opportunity here and a downtown, but I thinkits successhas, in fa ct, from very timely one with theipeg Winn Development the perspective of urban planners, pulled people Agreement and with CentrePlan for some overall away fr om one central focus which some planning for downtown Winnipeg. successfuldowntowns regardas their key. So here I wanted to comment on some of the security we now have one corporation which has the issues that the member for Crescentwood (Ms. opportunity to develop some plans which might Gray) brought up. I was interested to see a number 50 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

of the pieces of good news about security in the We are very much looking fmward to helping downtown and particularly in the north Portage them provide a more expanded facility for kids area, andI wonderedif in disthe cussions that the who just do not fit into the traditio nal high school North Portage grouphad-I thinkthey calledthem environment. roundtables-whether, infact, they included some Ms. Friesen: I know the Gordon Bell project. I of the young people who do frequent north Portage had not heardthat it had thepotential to move, but both in the day time andin the evening. Was there that is interesting. any opportunity in the round table discussions to involve them in the future planning? I wanted to ask about the south side. You have had task forces before on the south side, and it has Mr. Smith: Oh, we had to. With the round table produced some changes, theU of W, for example, discussions that we had, we actually involved and for a while some of the discount houses that some 200 people, andthere were a wide variety of were located on the south side. groups that were representative. We did try to bring in some of the users of downtown, probably One question isthe overall one of the south side, less successful in terms of bringing in some of the andthe otheris the impact of the bus mall, ifit is young people. But, wearing another hat, I also going to take buses away from Portage Avenue, I served on the steering committee for the SKY assume, andhow isthat going to affect you?

Project. There wasvery much anopportunity there • (1210) to get some directdialogue with some of the street Mr.Smith: I guessyou have asked twoquestions . kids in downtown. Certainly their particular The SouthSide Improvement Program, I think,has situation is one that I think basbeen fairly well been a success beyond our wildest dreams. Back documented by the Social Planning Council and two years ago, I think, it wasprobably one of our others of being in situations of requiring some greatest nightmares when we saw the number of assistance. vacancies that were on the south side of Portage We arenow working with the Downtown BIZ to Avenue between Eaton's and The Bay. We have look at re-establishingpresence a for counselling worked very hard with merchants, with property for street kids in downtown Winnipeg. We are owners, with the Downtown BIZ andwith thecity actually beingjoined in thisinstance by thepeople to try to turnthat situation around. I thinkit bas, from the Osborne Village BIZ area, and we are given the retail marlcet andthe real estate market, actually looking at aneffort thatwould encompass been areal success story. Infact, we have had calls not only downtown but also the Osborne Village from Minneapolis, St. Louis, many cities in the area U.S., Edmonton, Ottawaand othercities in Canada We have been working with Macdonald Youth about using a south-side improvement model in Services recently, and we are very optimistic that some of theirown situations in their downtown.

in the near future we can get a couple of Outreach As far as the Graham Avenue transit mall is worlcers back on the street to help kids that are in concerned, it was something that we were very dire need of some counselling. concerned about in terms of what the impact was The other group that we have worked with has going to be for transit onPortage Avenue. I think been the Gordon Bell High School's satellite one of the things that makes us different than campus, which is now located in the Power suburban development is that the re liance of Building, literally right across the street from people ontransit fo r a variety of activities, whether Portage Place. They have been working under the it beshopping or going to the doctor, many people auspices of the BIZ doing some cleanup. We are use transit. In fact, a survey that we did, now actually now negotiating with Gordon Bell, which getting a little old, but back in 1984 showed that is now looking at expanding that satellite campus, some 45 percent of the shoppers--never mind the andthey may indeedlocate on our site . people who were doing other things, working or June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 51

were downtown for other reasons-who were The lastquestion I have is to dealwith the area there hadcome by bus. north of the Air Canada site. That is an area that seems to. be tow ards Main Street, east of the Air So ifGraham the Avenue transit mallresulted in Canadasite. Two things occurred to me there. One taking buses off Portage Avenue, we would be of the common ways in which downtowns have very concerned. But we have been assured by fought back in North America since the Winnipeg Transit that in fact, as part of the introduction in the '60s of suburban malls, Graham Avenue transit mall, they did a study on downtown has usually fought back with heritage, rerouting all the buses through downtown and some version of heritage interpretation. Main what the result of thatis going to be is more buses Street Manitoba projects, Main Street Canada both along Portage A venue and on Graham projects through Heritage Canada, for example, Avenue. So it looks likeit is a win-winsituation. have been very effective in a number of towns. The GrahamAvenue transit mall as such, we are Morden in Manitoba would beone example. hoping that it will stimulate a retail activity As you look at the east end of Portage Avenue, particularly in the area between Carlton and what you see is quite a concentration of heritage Vaughan on Graham. It was under some pressure buildings. Theymay not allbe designated, but they from us as well as others that the city actually are very attractive buildings: the Paris Building; included-they were not going to originally, but the AA Heaps Building; there is a trust company they then decided to include a retail marketing building further down; there is another building component and very much of a consulting whose name I forget which is a very low component fo r retail businesses on Graham two-storey building with very large windows on Avenue. I thinkthat paidhas really offin spadesin the north side . It seems to me there is a theway that the mallbeen has des ignedbecause at conglomeration there, and there is a potential to first it was going to be a buses-only mall all the use heritage to regenerate thatarea.

way through from MainStreet to Vaughan. I wondered ifthere was any pressurefo r that, if Now, in the are as between Carlton and there hadbeen any consideration given to that or Vaughan, it is going to bemixed traffic. Therewill any particular special character that might be developed for that section of Portage Avenue, be cars allowed on the street, and I think, most importantly, there will be additional parking because Winnipeg fou ght down with spaces for vehicles on thatstreet which I think will modernization. It fought with interior streets and a modern shopping mall, very much like the help not only people arriving with vehicles, but suburbs. I wonder ifthere is some potential there. also pedestrians who are arriving from buses because what we find thatis when there arecars on Mr. Smith: The area between the Air Canada the street, it gives people a better sense of security Building and Main Street is I think an area of and safety. That is something that we are working concern. I thinkit basbeen one of the really good with the BIZ to see if we can see happen on things about theCentrePlan process. It hasenabled Portage Avenue. that concern to come to the front.

Ms. Friesen: It is interesting to hear your I think it was just a matter of sort of falling intetpretation of a win-win situation, because it through the cracks. Thatparticular area on Portage seemed to me that it was a double-edged sword. Avenue never received a lot of attentionin thepast There was the potential to link:North Portage with from the other two Core Area Agreements. I think South Portage in a more common transit way in the now there does seem to be much more concern sense of pedestrians moving between the two and about thatpart of the street. the possibility for opening other things on the I thinkthere are a number of things that have to south side, but also hadthe potential to pull people be addressed. Fundamental is the nature of Portage away simply justto the two ends. Avenue itself. IsPortage Avenue going to function 52 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

as a streetthat takes people fundamentally through negative image out in the real estate community thedowntown, orisit going to beManito ba's main about the attractiveness of that particular location shopping street, which iswhat it hasperf onned as as aplace to do business. inthe past? So I think it has to be a very comprehensive I think the city in its sort of evolutionary effort lookingat what thestrengths arein that area. decisionshave movedPortage Avenue much more I think you have mentioned one-certainly. the as an arterial street that takes people through the heritage buildings on the south side. The Anbang downtown. Part of that is because there are not a Walsh building, what would seem to be a real lot of otherroutes thatprovide the same ability to problem of a historic building, in fact, by the very do that. ownerwho hadit, when starting to look at some of We were hoping that perhaps the pendulum has the opportunities it turned it into a great swung a little bit too faron taking people through opportunity and it won the 1993 Heritage the downtown and making Portage Avenue more Winnipeg award. It is providing a great office of an arterial street. I think what the BIZ and space for the owner. groups like ourselves are trying to do is say, hey, I think there are some real opportunities there, there is another purpose for Portage Avenue and but theyhave to be done in a positive climate, that is as aretail street. and I think one of the first thingsdo to isto tryto get a How do you make it a nice retail street? One of more positive climate for that. I think thatis going the things to do is to put some parking back in, to take some effort on behalf of the threelevels of slow thetraffic do wn a little bit andmaybe makeit government. That iswhy we see the potential for a little easier to get around or maybe allowing an expanded South Side Improvement Program, some more right-hand turns and some left-hand which provides some modest incentives. Whether turns. they be inthe fonn of grants orloans I thinkneeds We have been gradually working with thecity, to be debated, but I really do see a role for the andthings have been starting to move inthe other public sector there. 1be Wmnipeg Development direction. Now there is parking available on Agreement may be the place to seethat happen. Portage Avenue in the evening and on weekends. It sounds like at least the Downtown BIZ is Some of theright-hand tumprohibitions arebeing re-examined and maybe relaxed. going to be making a presentation to that at next week's meeting. I think the next step is to look at, as you are Mr. suggesting, some of the buildings and some of the Chairperson: Thank you, Mr.Smith. property owners andwhat can theydo to tryto tum 1behour now being 12:20 p.m., as agreedto, we their situation around. If it is anything like on the would adjourn by 12:15 p.m. What is the will of south side, you have a situation where you have the committee? owners who probably have not spent a lot of Committee rise. money on their buildings in the last number of years. You have a lot of vacant spaces and a very COMMITTEE ROSE AT: 12:20 p.m.