Select Investigative Committee 1
1 BEFORE THE SELECT INVESTIGATIVE COMMITTEE
2 STATE OF WYOMING HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
3 ------
4 In the matter of the investigation into issues relating to 5 budgetary and administrative activities within the Wyoming Department of Education and the Office of Superintendent 6 of Public Instruction, including issues identified by the Governor's Inquiry Team Report regarding the Wyoming 7 Department of Education dated June 13, 2013 and subsequent reports released or resulting from that inquiry. 8 ------9
10
11 TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING PROCEEDINGS
12 VOLUME I
13 **NOTCONFIDENTIAL**
14
15 PURSUANT TO NOTICE duly given to all
16 parties in interest, this matter came on for
17 hearing on the 6th day of January, 2014, at the
18 approximate hour of 8:00 a.m., at the Wyoming State
19 Capitol Building, Room 302, 123 Capitol Avenue, Cheyenne,
20 Wyoming, before the Select Investigative Committee,
21 with Speaker Tom Lubnau presiding, and Representatives
22 Mark Baker, Gregg Blikre, Kermit Brown, Cathy Connolly,
23 Kathy Davison, Mike Greear, Michael Madden, Glen Moniz,
24 John Patton, Ruth Petroff, Tim Stubson, Mary Throne and
25 Dan Zwonitzer in attendance.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 2
1 APPEARANCES
2 Special Counsel: MR. BRUCE SALZBURG Special Counsel 3 CROWELL&MORINGLLP 205 Storey Boulevard, Suite 120 4 Cheyenne,Wyoming 82009
5 MR.ROBERTC.JAROSH MR.KHALELENHART 6 SpecialCounsel HIRSTAPPLEGATE,LLP 7 1720CareyAvenue Suite 400 8 Cheyenne,Wyoming 82001
9 I N D E X PAGE 10CALLTOORDER 5 ROLL CALL 5 11 OPENINGSTATEMENTBYCHAIRMANLUBNAU 6 STATEMENT REGARDING USE OF EXECUTIVE SESSION 14 12 MOTIONTOAMENDRULE 18
13 WITNESSES:
14 GAIL ELAINE EISENHAUER Examination-Mr.Jarosh 22 15 EXAMINATION BY THE COMMITTEE RepresentativeDavison 112 16 RepresentativeZwonitzer 114 RepresentativePatton 118 17 RepresentativeMadden 119 RepresentativeMoniz 122 18 RepresentativeGreear 124 RepresentativePatton 129 19 RepresentativeDavison 130 SpeakerLubnau 130 20
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25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 3
1 INDEX(CONTINUED) PAGE 2 JOY MOCKELMANN Examination-Mr.Salzburg 146 3 EXAMINATION BY THE COMMITTEE RepresentativeZwonitzer 178 4 RepresentativeConnolly 179 RepresentativeGreear 181 5 RepresentativeThrone 183 RepresentativeZwonitzer 184 6 RepresentativeDavison 184 RepresentativeWinters 185 7 RepresentativeGreear 186 RepresentativeMadden 186 8 RepresentativeConnolly 188 RepresentativeZwonitzer 188 9 RepresentativeThrone 189 SpeakerLubnau 190 10 BETHVANDEWEGE 11 Examination-Mr.Salzburg 202 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE 12 RepresentativeZwonitzer 236 RepresentativeMadden 237 13 RepresentativeDavison 238 RepresentativeZwonitzer 239 14 RepresentativeConnolly 240 RepresentativeDavison 241 15 RepresentativeGreear 242 RepresentativeZwonitzer 244 16 RepresentativeGreear 246 RepresentativeConnolly 248 17 RepresentativePatton 249 SpeakerLubnau 250 18 RepresentativeThrone 251 RepresentativeZwonitzer 252 19 RepresentativeThrone 253 RepresentativeMoniz 245 20 RepresentativeBaker 254 SpeakerLubnau 255 21 JONATHANBRAACK 22 Examination-Mr.Jarosh 266 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE 23 RepresentativeDavison 290 RepresentativeGreear 290 24 RepresentativeStubson 294 RepresentativePatton 295 25SpeakerLubnau 296
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 4
1 INDEX(CONTINUED) SHERYLLAINPAGE 2 Examination-Mr.Lenhart 308
3 TIFFANY DOBLER Examination-Mr.Salzburg 310 4 EXAMINATION BY THE COMMITTEE RepresentativeBrown 340 5 RepresentativeZwonitzer 346 RepresentativeThrone 347 6SpeakerLubnau 348 RepresentativeThrone 348 7 RepresentativeConnolly 349 RepresentativeDavison 350 8 RepresentativeBaker 350 SpeakerLubnau 352 9 KIMBERLYANNHARPER 10 Examination-Mr.Lenhart 361 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE 11 RepresentativeThrone 389 RepresentativeZwonitzer 390 12 RepresentativeDavison 393 SpeakerLubnau 393 13 RepresentativeThrone 394 RepresentativeZwonitzer 394 14SpeakerLubnau 394 FurtherExamination-Mr.Lenhart 400 15 RepresentativeZwonitzer 405 RepresentativePatton 406 16 RepresentativeStubson 408 SpeakerLubnau 409 17 RepresentativeZwonitzer 410 SpeakerLubnau 411 18 (***Pages 196 through 198 are confidential 19 and sealed in a separate transcript.)
20 (***Pages 262 through 263 are confidential and sealed in a separate transcript.) 21 (***Pages 325 through 334 are confidential 22 and sealed in a separate transcript.)
23 (***Pages 340 through 351 are confidential and sealed in a separate transcript.) 24 (***Pages 382 through 399 are confidential 25 and sealed in a separate transcript.)
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 5
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 (Hearing proceedings commenced
3 8:00 a.m., January 6, 2014.)
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: This special investigation
5 of the Wyoming House of Representatives is now in order.
6 Dan, would you please call roll?
7 Matt, whatever.
8 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Baker.
9 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Here.
10 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Berger.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: She's excused. She's had
12 a death in the family.
13 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Blikre.
14 REPRESENTATIVE BLIKRE: Here.
15 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Brown.
16 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Here.
17 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Connolly.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: She's excused. She's
19 having car trouble and is trying to get here.
20 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Davison.
21 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: Here.
22 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Greear.
23 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Here.
24 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Madden.
25 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Here.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 6
1 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Moniz.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MONIZ: Here.
3 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Patton.
4 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Here.
5 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Petroff.
6 REPRESENTATIVE PETROFF: Here.
7 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Stubson.
8 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Here.
9 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Throne.
10 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Here.
11 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Winters.
12 REPRESENTATIVE WINTERS: Here.
13 MR. OBRECHT: Representative Zwonitzer.
14 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Here.
15 MR. OBRECHT: Chairman Lubnau.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Here.
17 This committee is the legislative investigative
18 committee. Our charge from management counsel was to study
19 and review the issues related to budgetary and
20 administrative activities within the Wyoming Department of
21 Education, including issues identified by the Governor's
22 Inquiry Team Report regarding the Wyoming Department of
23 Education dated June 13, 2013 and subsequent reports
24 released or resulting from that inquiry.
25 The purpose of this investigation is to make
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 7
1 final conclusions and then make recommendations as to
2 further legislative action.
3 The Joint Education Committee -- the Joint
4 Education Accountability Committee and the Appropriations
5 Committee reported frustrations in dealing with the Wyoming
6 Department of Education during the years of 2011 and '12.
7 It was alleged then that information was not being provided
8 and communication was not working.
9 Also, before the 2013 general session, several
10 employees of the Wyoming Department of Education reported
11 to legislators that some actions at the Department needed
12 legislative scrutiny and provided substantial information
13 indicating the need for further review.
14 Shortly after the legislative session, the
15 governor convened an audit. Members of the Department of
16 Education and others were interviewed by a team of
17 investigators led by Cathy MacPherson. The report reached
18 no conclusions and created more questions than it answered.
19 After the report was finalized, 43 members of the
20 House of Representatives asked that a committee be
21 empaneled to draw some conclusions and resolve the issues
22 left open by the MacPherson report. In July management
23 counsel authorized this committee with the above charge. A
24 formative meeting was held in August of last year, and the
25 rules of procedure in front of the committee were adopted.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 8
1 The committee issued subpoenas to the Department of
2 Education, to the Office of Superintendent of Public
3 Instruction. The Office of Superintendent of Public
4 Instruction responded with 118 gigabytes of information or
5 about a million pages of documents. Most of the exhibits
6 that will be discussed in this hearing were provided by the
7 superintendent in her million-page-document response, so
8 none of the information contained in that response is new.
9 All of the exhibits, except for those
10 confidential exhibits, can be found on the legislative
11 website, those exhibits that we will consider today.
12 The hearing was originally scheduled for the week
13 of December 16th. The superintendent informed the LSO that
14 she would be going on vacation on December 18th, so the
15 hearing was moved to this week. Superintendent Hill was
16 given notice of the scheduling of the hearing on December 4
17 by e-mail.
18 This is not an adversarial proceeding. This
19 proceeding is a legislative investigatory committee charged
20 with finding out, through listening to testimony and
21 interviewing witnesses, just what exactly was happening at
22 the Wyoming Department of Education during the years 2011
23 and '12. It is investigative only. No articles of
24 impeachment have been filed. This is not a trial. This is
25 a legislative committee examining facts. Our job is to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 9
1 listen and then concisely report what we have learned.
2 No one is seeking to remove anyone from office at
3 this hearing, but we all come here with a great curiosity
4 and a desire to get to the truth. And we should never be
5 afraid to examine ourselves, and this exercise of having
6 testimony in open and streamed on the Internet will allow
7 everyone who wants to know to know what was happening at
8 the Department of Education.
9 We will from time to time go into executive
10 session to deal with personnel matters. Out of respect for
11 the law and the rights of the individual employees, we will
12 discuss those personal matters in executive session.
13 This matter is being reported by a court
14 reporter. And thanks, Kathy. If we get going too fast,
15 let us know.
16 And executive session will be reported. It's
17 very important that only one person speak at a time so that
18 we can have clear records of the proceedings. I will ask
19 that all involved abide by the strict rules of legislative
20 decorum so that we can get an accurate record of these
21 proceedings.
22 All testimony taken by this committee will be
23 under oath. The law allows the legislature to take
24 testimony under oath, and on matters important to the
25 public as this one has grown to be, the testimony will be
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 10
1 under oath.
2 Initial questioning of the witnesses shall be
3 conducted by counsel for the committee. Then at the end of
4 the questioning, members of the committee will have an
5 opportunity to ask questions. At the end of that
6 questioning, the Office of the Superintendent and the
7 Wyoming Department of Education both will have the
8 opportunity to submit additional questions to be asked of
9 the witnesses.
10 The Office of the Superintendent of Public
11 Instruction has supplied a list of initial questions.
12 at the end of the questioning of the witnesses, if there
13 are supplemental questions that the superintendent would
14 like asked, the board -- Wyoming Department of Education
15 ask that those questions be written and submitted to
16 Matt Obrecht with the LSO at the end of the witness
17 testimony.
18 The chair will then initially rule on whether to
19 ask -- whether or not the questions shall be asked. So
20 long as the questions are germane to the testimony given
21 and are not calculated to harass or intimidate, the chair's
22 intentions are to ask all questions submitted. But, for
23 example, if a witness testifies about the Fremont School
24 District 38 and someone submits a question asking, in the
25 absurd, "Isn't it true that you believe we're going to be
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 11
1 asked -- attacked by aliens," the chair will rule that
2 question out of order unless the testimony about Fremont 38
3 included reference to aliens.
4 We have a very aggressive schedule here, and we
5 want to keep the testimony to those things that are
6 relevant and not wander off into irrelevant areas.
7 If there are questions that the chair chooses not
8 to ask, upon the motion of any two members of the
9 committee, that question will be asked. I would ask the
10 members of the committee to solicit all of the relevant
11 information to our inquiry to keep focus on the issues in
12 front of us and not allow this hearing to migrate to issues
13 the subcommittee have already determined will not require
14 further legislative action.
15 According to our Rule 11(c), at the end of the
16 testimony of the scheduled witnesses, any interested party,
17 particularly the Department of Education or the Office of
18 Superintendent of Public Instruction, may submit the names
19 of additional witnesses in a summary of their proposed
20 testimony to the committee. Upon motion and vote of a
21 majority of the committee, those witnesses will be heard
22 under oath.
23 The committee has set a very aggressive agenda
24 for interviewing 16 witnesses in three days. I will use my
25 inherent authority as committee chairman and my authority
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 12
1 under Rule 12 of the committee's rules to ensure relevant
2 testimony is developed in a thorough and comprehensive
3 matter while keeping the committee on schedule. In doing
4 so, I may from time to time make a procedural ruling if I
5 believe the question has already been asked or answered or
6 if the response to the question will not lead to a greater
7 understanding of any issue under investigation by the
8 committee.
9 Any committee member may challenge my ruling on a
10 procedural issue, but know that I will not make such a
11 ruling unless I believe it absolutely necessary for the
12 committee to complete the task before it.
13 To the witnesses, I would ask you that, when
14 being examined by counsel, that you communicate directly
15 with counsel. However, when the committee asks questions,
16 I would ask that we abide by standard legislative protocol
17 and run the committee -- questions through the chairman and
18 the witness address the chairman. The purpose to be
19 seeking an accurate record for the committee's
20 deliberations.
21 After the testimony the committee will prepare a
22 draft report. Under Rule 15 the Wyoming Department of
23 Education and the Office of Superintendent of Public
24 Instruction will review the draft report and will have an
25 opportunity to comment on the draft findings, conclusions
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 13
1 and recommendations. Then the committee, after hearing
2 comment of the Department of Education and Office of
3 Superintendent of Public Instruction, will submit a final
4 report and recommendation to the legislature.
5 As it stands now, the Office of Superintendent
6 has submitted additional questions and will have the
7 opportunity to submit further questions and testimony and
8 to comment on the final report. All of those procedures
9 were included in our rules we adopted last August.
10 I'm proud of the work of this committee to date.
11 You have been diligent and professional in your approach to
12 this matter. You've worked tirelessly on a quest for the
13 truth. And we should not be afraid of the truth. We
14 should not be afraid of detailing the workings of Wyoming
15 government to the people of Wyoming. Why shouldn't we
16 examine ourselves in our operations? And why shouldn't we
17 take the opportunity to have open testimony for all to
18 hear?
19 These hearings are about integrity, trust and the
20 faith of the people of the state of Wyoming and their
21 elected officials. The actions of this committee and the
22 testimony of the witnesses will speak louder than the
23 political rhetoric and constant press releases that have
24 been issued leading up to this meeting. Let us now
25 approach our task with seriousness, courage and integrity.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 14
1 Mr. Salzburg, would you provide the committee
2 some information regarding executive sessions, please.
3 MR. SALZBURG: Mr. Speaker, ladies and
4 gentlemen, Rule 14 of the rules of this elect investigative
5 committee provides that when a witness will provide
6 confidential information, the committee shall be in
7 executive session. When the committee goes into executive
8 session, the public must be excluded from the hearing. And
9 I understand that the facilities that we have to stream the
10 audio live via the Internet will also be shut down during
11 the executive session.
12 Under the current rules, the superintendent and
13 her representative are not permitted to be present during
14 executive session, but my understanding is that that rule
15 is going to be revisited in just a few minutes.
16 Under Rule 14, if the confidential information
17 gives rise to conclusions which require further legislative
18 action, the committee shall provide representatives of the
19 Department of Education or the Office of Superintendent of
20 Public Instruction an opportunity to comment as provided in
21 Rule 50. That means if the committee reaches any
22 conclusion in its report that is based upon confidential
23 information that was obtained in an executive session, the
24 superintendent will have an opportunity to review that
25 information and to respond to the conclusions.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 15
1 The Wyoming open meetings law does not apply to
2 the legislature or to the judiciary. However, the open
3 meetings law permits an agency to go into executive session
4 to consider or receive any information which is classified
5 as confidential by law.
6 On the other hand, the Wyoming Public Records Act
7 does apply to the legislature, and there are certain
8 categories of records that the law makes confidential.
9 Information contained in those records is likewise clothed
10 in a requirement of confidentiality, since it would make
11 little sense if a record is confidential and cannot be
12 disclosed, but if the information that is contained in that
13 record were subject to public disclosure.
14 There are two specific categories of records that
15 we suspect will be discussed in this hearing that are
16 subject to the requirements of confidentiality. Those are
17 personnel files that are covered by Wyoming Statute
18 16-4-203(d)(iii), and also records or information compiled
19 solely for purposes of investigating violations of and
20 enforcing internal personnel rules or personnel policies,
21 the disclosure of which would constitute a clearly
22 unwarranted invasion of personal privacy. That provision
23 is in Wyoming Statute 16-4-203(d)(xi).
24 Additionally, information which is legally
25 privileged is covered by the Public Records Act in Wyoming
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 16
1 Statute 16-4-203(d)(v).
2 There is a Wyoming case called Houghton versus
3 Franscell in which the Wyoming Supreme Court looked at this
4 question of what is an unwarranted invasion of privacy and
5 adopted the definition that had been stated in a Georgia
6 Supreme Court case. The term, as the Wyoming Supreme Court
7 has defined it, means any unwarranted publicity,
8 unwarranted appropriation or exploitation among
9 personalities or the publicizing of one's private affairs
10 with which the public has no legitimate concern.
11 Generally the Wyoming Supreme Court has required
12 that exemptions or exceptions to the Public Records Act
13 which generally requires a disclosure, that those
14 exemptions be narrowly construed. The mere fact that a
15 disclosure might be embarrassing to a public employee is
16 not standing by itself sufficient to justify
17 confidentiality.
18 The cases from other jurisdictions with similar
19 language and their Freedom of Information Acts require the
20 custodian of a record to balance the interest of the public
21 in access to the information against the privacy right of
22 the individual in order to determine whether or not
23 disclosure of the information would constitute a clearly
24 unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.
25 The committee must also keep in mind that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 17
1 employees, public employees, have liberty interests in
2 their good name and reputation, and publication of false
3 and stigmatizing information may raise due process
4 concerns.
5 So from time to time, we will be asking that the
6 committee go into executive session to take testimony about
7 personnel matters or to take testimony which meets the
8 requirement of the Public Records Act of confidentiality,
9 that is, when an individual privacy right may be invaded
10 without warrant. Or also to protect any information that
11 may be deemed confidential or privileged by law.
12 I see this morning that we have three
13 representatives of the Attorney General's Office here with
14 us. Jay Jerde is Special Assistant Attorney General,
15 Senior Assistant Attorney General Mike Robinson and
16 Assistant Attorney General McKenzie Williams.
17 Gentlemen, if you'd stand and introduce
18 yourselves to the committee and explain what your role will
19 be, I'd appreciate it.
20 MR. JERDE: Thank you, Mr. Salzburg.
21 Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, my name
22 is Jay Jerde. I'm a Special Assistant Attorney General.
23 Mr. Robinson and Mr. Williams are here today to represent
24 any state employee or state official who is called to
25 address potential privileges that may come into play or
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 18
1 possibility of confidential information that may be asked
2 for. And so to the extent that Mr. Williams, who will
3 represent the Department, or Mr. Robinson, who will
4 represent the Office of Superintendent, have concerns about
5 privilege or confidentiality, they will voice those
6 concerns at the appropriate time so that there can be a
7 discussion about whether or not the information's
8 privileged or not privileged.
9 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Are there any preliminary
11 motions regarding our rules -- for discussion regarding
12 rules?
13 Mr. Majority Floor Leader.
14 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I make
15 a motion we amend our rule to permit the superintendent of
16 public instruction and her legal counsel to be present
17 during executive sessions.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Is there a second?
19 REPRESENTATIVE WINTERS: Second.
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: There's a second. Any
21 discussion?
22 Representative Zwonitzer.
23 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Just a question.
24 And my concern stems from the Supreme Court has not made an
25 official decision on the outcome of Senate File 104. If
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 19
1 the Supreme Court decides 104 was unconstitutional, the
2 superintendent becomes in charge of the Department of
3 Education once again, is there any type of conflict with
4 there being personnel issues discussed in executive session
5 for employees, or will they feel comfortable expressing
6 their concerns knowing that may be a possibility, or should
7 we at least inform them that may be a possibility?
8 I know the testimony I've read in the book that
9 many of them talked to -- in the MacPherson report and in
10 other depositions or conversations that there were
11 certain -- there's a clear break and they wouldn't be under
12 authority anymore from the superintendent, but that may not
13 be a possibility if 104 is ruled unconstitutional. Is
14 there any type of conflict or issue that arises in making
15 disclosure?
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any discussion or
17 thoughts?
18 Representative Baker.
19 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Mr. Chairman, just
20 briefly. If we're going to allow her into our executive
21 session, should she be allowed to have legal counsel
22 present?
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Baker, that
24 was part of the motion.
25 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Was it?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 20
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any other discussion?
2 Hearing none and sensing you're ready to vote, all in favor
3 of the rule change say aye.
4 REPRESENTATIVE BAKER: Aye.
5 REPRESENTATIVE BLIKRE: Aye.
6 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Aye.
7 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: Aye.
8 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Aye.
9 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Aye.
10 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Aye.
11 REPRESENTATIVE PETROFF: Aye.
12 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Aye.
13 REPRESENTATIVE WINTERS: Aye.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Opposed?
15 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: No.
16 REPRESENTATIVE MONIZ: No.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. The rule change has
18 been made.
19 Now we're at that point of taking testimony.
20 Mr. Salzburg, if you would call your first witness.
21 MR. SALZBURG: Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker,
22 Mr. Jarosh will be examining the first witness.
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Jarosh.
24 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, our first witness
25 is Gail Eisenhauer.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 21
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ms. Eisenhauer, have you
2 received the initial advisement regarding your committee
3 testimony talked -- it was -- it said you're about to give
4 testimony that will be included in the committee's
5 investigation into issues related to budgetary and
6 administrative activities within the Department of
7 Education and the Office of the Superintendent of Public
8 Instruction. The information you provide may not remain
9 confidential and could be used in further legislative
10 executive or judicial proceedings. You have the right to
11 appear before this body with legal counsel. You also have
12 the right to assert any privileges. You must answer any
13 question recognized by the United States Constitution and
14 the Constitution of the State of Wyoming. Did you receive
15 that?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
18 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you stand and be
20 sworn.
21 (Witness sworn.)
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you very much.
23 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure that
24 microphone for the witness is working. Is it?
25 THE WITNESS: Can you hear me? Well --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 22
1 MR.JAROSH: You'llhavetopush--
2 SPEAKERLUBNAU: There'salittlebutton
3 there. Is the red light on?
4 THEWITNESS: Yes.
5 MR.JAROSH: Perfect. Thankyou,
6 Mr. Speaker.
7 GAILELAINEEISENHAUER,
8 called as a witness on behalf of the Select Investigative
9 Committee, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
10 EXAMINATION
11 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) Miss Eisenhauer, would you
12 please state your full name.
13 A. Gail Elaine Eisenhauer.
14 Q. You were here a few moments ago when Speaker
15 Lubnau explained that we have a court reporter here today,
16 so I want to make sure you understand that it's important
17 for you to let me finish asking a question before you
18 answer the question so that we're not speaking over one
19 another, okay?
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. It's also important that you provide verbal
22 responses to my answers so that the court reporter can
23 take those answers down as opposed to facial gestures or
24 movements of the head, okay?
25 A. Okay.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 23
1 Q. Probably most importantly, if I ask you a
2 question that you don't understand, please tell me you
3 don't understand it, and I will try to rephrase it in a
4 way that you understand, okay?
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Do you currently live in Cheyenne?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. How long have you lived here?
9 A. I've lived here since 1978.
10 Q. How are you currently employed?
11 A. I'm employed by the Wyoming Department of
12 Education.
13 Q. And what's your position with the Department of
14 Education?
15 A. I'm an education consultant with the Special
16 Programs Division, monitoring and accountability section.
17 Q. How long have you worked for the Department of
18 Employment?
19 A. I've worked for the Department three years,
20 since January of 2011.
21 Q. I'm sorry, I meant the Department of Education.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Will you summarize your educational background
24 for the committee, please.
25 A. I have a bachelor's degree and a master's degree
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 24
1 from the University of Wyoming. And my bachelor's was in
2 English, and my master's was in special education.
3 Q. Will you briefly describe for the committee your
4 employment history.
5 A. Prior to coming to work for the Department, I
6 worked for 16 years at Attention Homes, Incorporated,
7 which was a private residential treatment center in
8 Cheyenne. I was the education director.
9 Q. How is it that you moved from the Attention Home
10 to working for the Department of Education?
11 A. In late 2010, Attention Homes went out of
12 business, and Cindy Hill called me and made me an offer of
13 employment to come work at the Department of Education.
14 Q. What was the original offer of employment that
15 she made to you?
16 A. Initially she asked me if I was interested in
17 being part of her transition team, and from that it
18 just -- it moved into full-time employment with the
19 Department.
20 Q. Can you tell the committee the names of the
21 other members of the transition team?
22 A. Sheryl Lain, Michelle Hoffman, Greg Hansen,
23 Kevin Lewis, Roger Clark, I think -- I think that's it.
24 Q. And what was your understanding of your role in
25 the transition team?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 25
1 A. Well, we really didn't have defined roles on the
2 transition team. As I recall, we met twice prior to
3 Cindy's inauguration, and they were more like
4 discussion -- just discussion sessions. I didn't have a
5 defined role.
6 Q. When did you go to work for the Department in
7 your current full-time position after the transition team?
8 A. In February, early February 2011.
9 Q. And what was your position?
10 A. I was hired as a supervisor in the School
11 Improvement Division. I supervised the statewide system
12 of support and the district support and coordination team.
13 Q. Is there a -- a difference between the statewide
14 system of support and the district support and
15 coordination team? Are those two different groups?
16 A. Yes,theyare.
17 Q. Would you briefly describe to the committee what
18 those -- what those groups do?
19 A. The statewide system of support is comprised of
20 district coaches that -- they work under professional
21 service contracts. And they're primarily funded with
22 federal funds under Title I. And they -- their purpose --
23 their primary purpose is to serve districts that are in
24 AYP, that is, they didn't make adequate yearly progress.
25 The district support and coordination team are state
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 26
1 employees, education consultants, whose primary role is to
2 provide technical assistance to all 48 districts
3 throughout Wyoming.
4 Q. What were your duties supervising those two
5 groups?
6 A. Basically I worked with -- I worked with those
7 employees. I think there were -- when I came on, there
8 were a total of 12 -- eight district coaches and four
9 consultants. Just worked with them. I really, being new
10 to the department, I -- the first six months I really felt
11 that I was in a listening role, trying to hear about the
12 work, understand the work. I was a support to them. I
13 was also a member of Cindy's leadership team initially and
14 worked with other divisions within the Department,
15 attended a lot of meetings, those kinds of things.
16 Q. When you were describing the statewide system of
17 support, you mentioned responsibilities associated with
18 Title I and adequate yearly progress. Could you describe
19 what those two things are a little bit more for the
20 committee, please?
21 A. Well, Title I is a federal program that -- it's
22 under the Elementary and Secondary Education Act that
23 seeks to ensure economic achievement for disadvantaged
24 low-income children. Adequate yearly progress is -- was
25 part of No Child Left Behind, and it's a measurement --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 27
1 it's a measurement that is used to track achievement of
2 students in reading, language arts and mathematics. It's
3 primarily based on the statewide assessment, performance
4 on the statewide assessment.
5 Q. Are individual schools measured against adequate
6 yearly progress or is it school districts or is it both?
7 A. I believe it's individual schools.
8 Q. How big of a staff did you supervise within the
9 statewide system of support?
10 A. There were eight -- when I first came on, there
11 were eight district coaches.
12 Q. And then was the -- the number of employees who
13 you supervised within district support and coordination
14 team, did you already say it was at four?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. How were the positions within the statewide
17 system of support and the district support and
18 coordination team funded in terms of whether they were
19 funded with federal or state money or both?
20 A. I believe the consultants who worked for the
21 district support and coordination team were funded with
22 state funds. The coaches initially, when I first came on,
23 and for the first six months, I believe, they were about
24 80 percent funded with federal Title I money, and 20
25 percent funded from various state budgets.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 28
1 Q. How long did you stay in your position
2 supervising the statewide system of support and the
3 district support and coordination team?
4 A. Tenmonths.
5 Q. You left approximately the end of 2011, then?
6 A. I'm sorry, it was nine months. I left at the
7 end of October 2011.
8 Q. In your current position what are your job
9 duties and responsibilities?
10 A. As part of the Special Programs Division, I
11 worked with the monitoring team, and we monitor the school
12 districts for compliance with the IDEA and other
13 initiatives under special programs for students with
14 disabilities. I work -- part of my role is working with
15 institutional schools, because of my previous experience,
16 and working with them, providing technical assistance, and
17 to institutional schools and school districts around
18 issues relating to out-of-district placement.
19 Q. Do you currently have supervisory responsibility
20 over any employees?
21 A. No,Idon't.
22 Q. I'd like to talk to you about the concept of
23 at-will employment. As a part of Superintendent Hill's
24 leadership team, were you ever involved in any discussions
25 early on about at-will employment within the Department?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 29
1 A. The first time I remember hearing the term "at
2 will" I think was in March of 2011. And it was my
3 understanding that the superintendent had -- had attempted
4 to fire an employee or discipline an employee, and what I
5 recall was a leadership team meeting the following day
6 where the superintendent said -- came in and said, well --
7 something like, "Well, apparently we can't just fire
8 somebody, there are rules and procedures and things that
9 we have to follow." That was the first time I remember
10 hearing anything about at will.
11 Q. When you were first hired into your position
12 supervising statewide system and support and district
13 support and coordination team, what was your understanding
14 as to whether your position was classified or at will?
15 A. My position was classified.
16 Q. And what do you base that testimony on?
17 A. Well, that was what I was told at the time that
18 I was hired. There are documents in my personnel file
19 that indicate that was the case, and Karen Kelley, who was
20 the human resources director at that time, and Christine
21 Steele, who interviewed me, that was -- that was what was
22 communicated to me. That was the position I was offered
23 and that I accepted.
24 Q. Okay. And so when you testified that you were
25 told that your position was classified when you were
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 30
1 hired, are those the two individuals that told you that?
2 A. Yes. And also Roger Clark, I believe, told me
3 that was -- that was the case.
4 Q. Did there come a time during your employment
5 when you were asked to sign an at-will acknowledgment for
6 your employment?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I understand that that came shortly after
9 you became upset by some text messages that you received
10 from a department supervisor; is that correct?
11 A. That is correct. It was the following day.
12 Q. And you had reported those text messages?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I don't want to -- I don't want to have you go
15 into any of the details about the text messages, but let
16 me ask you a few questions about the at-will
17 acknowledgment. Who asked you to sign at-will
18 acknowledgment?
19 A. Megan Meisen, who was the human resources
20 supervisor at that time.
21 Q. And how soon after you lodged a complaint about
22 the text messages was it that you were asked to sign the
23 at-will acknowledgment?
24 A. The following day.
25 Q. At that time how close were you to finishing
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 31
1 your probationary period with the Department?
2 A. I was about a week away from my -- the end of my
3 one-year probationary period.
4 Q. So would that have been sometime in January
5 of 2012, then?
6 A. LateJanuary,yes.
7 Q. Did you believe that the request that you sign
8 the at-will acknowledgment was somehow related to the
9 complaint that you made?
10 A. Yes,Idid.
11 Q. Andwhy?
12 A. Because -- because it came on the heels of me
13 filing a complaint, because my -- the end of my
14 probationary time was drawing near. And I think because
15 over the course of that year I had seen an attempt by
16 Superintendent Hill to make all employees or as many as
17 possible at will. And I -- I thought that perhaps it was
18 because -- maybe an attempt to control me, or because it
19 was retal -- retaliatory because I had filed a complaint
20 that -- yeah, I did.
21 Q. Did you then sign the at-will acknowledgment?
22 A. No,Ididn't.
23 Q. Whynot?
24 A. Because I didn't want to.
25 Q. Why didn't you want to?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 32
1 A. Because I didn't -- I thought if I signed it, it
2 would compromise my employment, and I had come to
3 appreciate the value of those protections that are
4 afforded to permanent employees. You know, over the
5 course of the year I had come to understand that that had
6 some value. At the time that they -- that they tried to
7 get me to sign the at-will letter they offered $10
8 consideration in exchange for that, and I didn't think
9 that was in my best interests.
10 Q. After you received the request to sign the
11 at-will acknowledgment, did you have any conversations
12 with Superintendent Hill about the at-will acknowledgment?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Describe those conversations for the committee,
15 please.
16 A. Superintendent Hill called me and asked me to
17 come up to her office, which I did. And John Masters, her
18 legal counsel or counsel for the superintendent, was also
19 in the office. And she had a copy of the at-will letter
20 and a pen, and she asked me to sign it and said we had had
21 a previous agreement that my position would be at will,
22 which wasn't my recollection. And I told her that.
23 And I told her that I valued my permanent -- my
24 status as a permanent employee and asked if there was some
25 other negotiation that we could -- we could make as an
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 33
1 alternative to me having to sign the at-will letter. And
2 at that time John Masters offered me an ETEP 8 position,
3 which I didn't really understand, you know, those numbers
4 or how -- those position numbers and things. But an ETEP
5 8 -- at the time I was an ETEP 11, so it was -- the
6 offer -- the alternative that they offered me was a
7 demotion, essentially, that was three pay grades -- or
8 three levels below my current job duties.
9 Q. Do you have any recollection as to how much
10 lower the pay would have been in the 8 position?
11 A. Well, the figure that Superintendent Hill
12 mentioned in that meeting was -- would have amounted to
13 about a third -- over a $30,000-a-year cut in pay.
14 Q. Did you make any decisions at that time with
15 respect to whether you were going to sign the at-will
16 acknowledgement or accept the position that was offered to
17 you?
18 A. No. I asked if I could have time to think about
19 it.
20 Q. There's a book of exhibits in front of you. If
21 you will turn to the first exhibit in the book, it's
22 labeled as Exhibit 1 behind the Gail Eisenhauer tab.
23 A. Okay. Okay.
24 Q. Let me first ask, do you recognize this exhibit
25 as several e-mails that you sent or received related to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 34
1 the issue of you being asked to sign the at-will
2 acknowledgment?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. If you'll take a moment to review those
5 e-mails -- would you tell the committee which of those
6 e-mails is the first chronologically, who sent it and what
7 it's about?
8 A. The first was sent by me on January 31, 2012, to
9 Cindy Hill, John Masters, Megan Meisen, and Michael
10 Harris.
11 Q. And what is the e-mail about?
12 A. It was me letting -- I was feeling pressured by
13 the superintendent to make a decision to either sign the
14 letter or accept the demotion that she was offering me,
15 and -- should I read the content of it or do you want me
16 to just summarize?
17 Q. Whatever you're more comfortable doing.
18 A. Okay. I'm -- I would prefer to just read it.
19 It says I wanted to let you know that I have been feeling
20 increasingly anxious, vulnerable and fearful since filing
21 my complaint regarding that employee one week ago.
22 Consequently, I am not in a position to talk about
23 changing my employment status at this time as it is such
24 an important decision. Until the situation with that
25 employee is handled, I'm not comfortable renegotiating the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 35
1 terms of my employment. I don't want to feel pressured
2 into making a decision I might regret when I am so
3 emotionally vulnerable.
4 Q. By the time you sent that e-mail, had you
5 retained an attorney?
6 A. I had retained an attorney that morning, because
7 I felt -- after consulting with Peg Brown-Clark, who was
8 the division director of special programs, after talking
9 to her about the terms that the superintendent was
10 offering me, she advised me that -- she advised me that
11 she thought that possibly the superintendent was intending
12 to fire me, and she advised me to seek legal counsel,
13 which I had done that morning.
14 Q. After you sent your original e-mail, you
15 received the response from Mr. Masters that's also part of
16 Exhibit 1, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And what did Mr. Masters say to you in response
19 to your e-mail?
20 A. I sent the e-mail -- the first e-mail at
21 1:38 p.m. At 3:00 that same day, John Masters -- I
22 believe he replied to all, because it looked like it was
23 sent to me with copies to Cindy Hill, Megan Meisen and
24 Michael Harris. And he wrote hi, Gail. It seems these
25 are two separate matters and that we should treat them
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 36
1 accordingly. To allay your concerns or fears, we could
2 meet with you and your counsel and assure both of you that
3 that employee will not be present or encountered while
4 you're in the building. I note that with respect to your
5 complaint, your cooperation and ultimately your testimony
6 will be essential if the matter is to move forward. And
7 at that time that employee's involvement would more likely
8 if not be required. Thus, it seems imperative that we
9 have the benefit of meeting with you if we are to fully
10 process either matter, and your failure to participate
11 will leave the superintendent with few alternatives.
12 Q. With respect to the last sentence in the e-mail
13 from Mr. Masters where he states, "...your failure to
14 participate will leave the superintendent with few
15 alternatives," what did you perceive that to mean?
16 A. I perceived that as a threat, that he was saying
17 either -- either you get in here and sign the letter or
18 whatever, make a decision, or you're going to be fired.
19 Q. Later -- later that day, then, did you receive a
20 blind copy of an e-mail from Peg Brown-Clark to
21 Superintendent Hill, Mr. Masters, Ms. Meisen, Dean Fausset
22 and Matt Fermelia?
23 A. Yes, sent by Pam at 5:06 p.m. that same day.
24 Q. And what was Peg Brown-Clark's position with the
25 Department at that time?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 37
1 A. Peg -- prior to 5 p.m., Peg was the director of
2 the Special Programs Division for the Department of
3 Education. After 5 p.m. she had accepted a position in
4 Colorado with the Colorado Department of Education, and so
5 after 5:00 I believe she was no longer employed by the
6 Department.
7 Q. And I'm not going to ask you to read that entire
8 e-mail into the record because it's in the record, but
9 what was sort of the message that was being sent in that
10 e-mail?
11 A. Well, my name was in the subject line, and
12 Peg -- Peg, it seemed to me that she was summarizing some
13 interactions she had had with the superintendent her last
14 two days of employment. And she did outline what had
15 happened to me regarding the asking me to sign the at-will
16 letter or giving me the alternative of taking the
17 demotion.
18 And she talks about the hostility within the
19 Department, and she used John Masters -- see, John Masters
20 had replied to all on -- on my first e-mail, and so that
21 reply had gone to my supervisor, Michael Harris, who I
22 believe then took it to Peg, because I hadn't communicated
23 with her, shared that with her. But she included -- as
24 part of her e-mail included John Masters' e-mail, and she
25 talked about hostility within the Department, that people
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 38
1 were being treated badly and gave some examples. And then
2 at the end of it she cited John Masters' e-mail and said,
3 "Sounds like threats to me." She said, "Below is the
4 message to Gail regarding the importance of agreeing to an
5 employment status change. Sounds like threats to me."
6 Q. Did you ever sign the at-will acknowledgment?
7 A. No. It was -- the subject was never brought up
8 again.
9 Q. Would you explain to the committee, then, how
10 the issue of your employment status was resolved?
11 A. I agreed to -- I met with John Masters and my
12 legal counsel, Gay Woodhouse, and Liz Gagen from the
13 Attorney General's Office and Megan Meisen, and we agreed
14 to go through the reclassification process to have my
15 position reclassified through A&I.
16 Q. And that ultimately happened?
17 A. It did.
18 Q. Would you describe for the committee your
19 perception of the workplace environment under
20 Superintendent Hill?
21 A. My perception was that it was -- there was a
22 culture of secrecy, that people were very nervous, very
23 fearful about members of the leadership team. There was a
24 feeling that -- there was a feeling that if you crossed
25 one of the members of the leadership team or
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 39
1 Superintendent Hill, that there would be retaliation. I
2 know that a lot of people were -- you know, feared for
3 their jobs, and especially people that were new hires, and
4 there were a lot of them, in their first year of
5 probationary period, kind of -- kind of seemed to me that
6 it was like people were afraid to talk. They were afraid
7 to speak. They were afraid to challenge anything that
8 came from any member of her leadership. It was a very
9 almost palpable toxic, fearful environment.
10 Q. Are you aware of instances when the leadership
11 with the Wyoming Department of Education under
12 Superintendent Hill videotaped meetings?
13 A. Yes,Iam.
14 Q. Are you aware of instances where Superintendent
15 Hill then questioned the loyalty of employees because of
16 their body language in meetings that were videotaped?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Describe for the committee those instances that
19 you're aware of.
20 A. IthinkitwasinMayof2011. The
21 superintendent, Sheryl Lain, myself, and members of my
22 team, the SSoS/DSCT, flew on a state plane to Sheridan to
23 observe some things in Sheridan School District Number 2
24 and have meetings with those folks. And that day we were
25 at the district office, we were meeting in a big room, and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 40
1 the superintendent of Sheridan School District 2 and some
2 of the other principals and other people in the district
3 were doing presentations, and there was discussion and
4 that kind of thing.
5 And I think I had heard prior to that that one
6 of the members of her leadership team, Kevin Lewis, had
7 something called a 360-degree camera, and I had just heard
8 something about it in passing, but I believe that he --
9 well, I know that he used that camera that day to
10 videotape those meetings.
11 And I don't know how long after we returned from
12 Sheridan, maybe a week -- maybe within a week I received a
13 call from Superintendent Hill. She was -- she was
14 traveling, but she told me that she wanted me to get with
15 Kevin Lewis and look at that videotape. And she said that
16 they had reviewed it, and she thought that Dianne Frazier,
17 who was one of the consultants that worked on my team, she
18 thought that Dianne's body language indicated that she was
19 not on board is -- was the term that she used.
20 Q. Didyourespond?
21 A. I did. I -- I told her that Dianne -- I didn't
22 agree with that. I said that I didn't think it was fair
23 to, you know, make a judgment like that based on, you
24 know, somebody's body language, but I said that Dianne was
25 a shy person, but that wasn't my sense at all in working
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 41
1 with her, that she was a very dedicated employee.
2 Q. Are you also aware of similar instance involving
3 an employee by the name of Roger Clark?
4 A. Yes,Iam.
5 Q. Would you describe that for the committee,
6 please.
7 A. In June, I believe, of 2011, there was a meeting
8 of the Joint Education Committee in Casper. And Roger and
9 the superintendent and some other department employees
10 presented to the committee. And I -- shortly after that,
11 I believe it was Sheryl Lain that said to me that Kevin
12 Lewis had videotaped Roger at that meeting, and she said
13 that from what Kevin had reported -- or I don't know if
14 Kevin had shown the videotape to Sheryl, but she said that
15 it appeared that at one point I believe Senator Coe was
16 addressing the superintendent in -- in kind of an
17 aggressive way or something, but that -- when that
18 happened, that Roger Clark leaned back in his chair, which
19 she said -- she believed indicated that he did not support
20 the superintendent, his body language, you know, leaning
21 back in his chair.
22 And then there was a meeting with division
23 directors in the Hathaway Building, you know, like that
24 day or the next day or something like that, and Roger
25 Clark was participating in the meeting via WEN video from
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 42
1 Riverton, and there was -- there was some discussion among
2 the division directors, myself, Kevin Lewis was there, and
3 Roger, like I said, was on by video.
4 And I don't recall exactly the conversation --
5 the discussion leading up to it, but at one point, Kevin
6 said to Roger that he had videotaped him at this Joint
7 Education Committee meeting, and that after reviewing the
8 video, it appeared that -- from his body language, that he
9 did not support the superintendent. And Roger got very
10 upset and told -- well, he said -- told Kevin what --
11 well, he said, "That's a bunch of horse shit," is what he
12 said, actually. And he said, you know, "This meeting is
13 over." And I think that -- I'm pretty sure that it was
14 the following day that Roger resigned his position with
15 the Department.
16 Q. I'd like to turn your attention now to some
17 events that happened at Arapahoe Elementary School and
18 Fremont County School District Number 38, okay?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. If I just call Fremont School District Number 38
21 "Fremont 38," you'll understand I'm talking about that
22 school district?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And I'm also going to be asking you some
25 questions about a program called Wyoming Reads, and I know
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 43
1 from time to time witnesses have called Wyoming Reads WYR,
2 abbreviating it W-Y-R and calling it WYR. So if I call it
3 WYR from to time, you'll understand what I'm talking
4 about, Wyoming Reads?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you involved in the Wyoming Reads program
7 in Fremont 38 in 2011?
8 A. Yes,Iwas.
9 Q. Will you describe for the committee what Wyoming
10 Reads is.
11 A. It's a -- it's a reading method -- or it's a
12 reading instruction method, I would say, that was
13 developed by Sheryl Lain and her daughter Shan Anderson,
14 and Victoria Lesher.
15 Q. When did you first become aware of discussions
16 about implementing the WYR program at Arapahoe Elementary
17 School?
18 A. I believe it was in early August of 2011.
19 Q. And how did you first become aware?
20 A. I think through conversations with Sheryl Lain,
21 yeah, beginning of August. My daughter got married the
22 last week of July, and so I was gone from the Department
23 from -- that last week. But when I came back, there was
24 much discussion about this -- this project, I believe.
25 Q. At some point in 2011, did you receive a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 44
1 telephone call from Superintendent Hill asking you whether
2 state -- statewide system of support money could be used
3 to help implement the WYR program at Arapahoe Elementary?
4 A. Yes, I did. I was on my way back to Cheyenne
5 from the Wyoming Department of Education summer camp that
6 had been held in Casper. I think it was August 1st, 2nd
7 and 3rd, something like that. And I remember I was
8 driving home, and I received a call from the
9 superintendent asking -- saying could we use some of your
10 coaches' money to pay reading coaches or something like
11 that.
12 Q. Howdidyourespond?
13 A. Well, I said -- I said -- I think I said
14 something like, "Well, you're the superintendent, you
15 know, I suppose you can do whatever you want." But I
16 said, "We're going to have to look at the SSoS regulations
17 and see how that work would fit with what the coaches are
18 required to do."
19 Q. Do you remember if during that telephone call or
20 sometime shortly thereafter Superintendent Hill encouraged
21 you to go to Evanston to see a presentation by Ms. Lain?
22 A. Well, I remember her saying that she wanted me
23 to meet with Sheryl Lain as soon as possible, that I
24 needed to talk to Sheryl, that the two of us needed to
25 visit. She didn't say about what specifically, but she
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 45
1 urged me to do that, and I did.
2 Q. And where did that occur, that meeting with
3 Ms. Lain?
4 A. In Evanston. So if I was on my way back -- when
5 I got the call from the superintendent, I was on my way
6 back to Cheyenne, that was probably I want to say on a
7 Friday, and I think it was the following weekend there was
8 a -- a T2T workshop, one of those reading workshops that
9 was scheduled in Evanston that weekend, and I went to
10 Evanston and I met with her on that Friday night.
11 Q. What do you recall about that meeting with
12 Ms. Lain?
13 A. I remember that she was -- she -- we talked
14 about doing this reading project at Fremont 38 at Arapahoe
15 Elementary School. There had been discussion of -- before
16 I had gone on vacation in late July -- in fact, I think it
17 was the very last day before I went -- there was a -- a
18 meeting at the Department with department heads and people
19 from the finance division and things. And there was
20 discussion about I think it was $10 million in ARRA funds
21 that might be available, potentially could be available.
22 And at that time I don't remember if the Fremont 38 was --
23 or WYR was discussed specifically, but I know that there
24 was talk about doing a real large-scale initiative, using
25 that money to do something in one of the districts in the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 46
1 state.
2 When I got back, then I heard the Arapahoe
3 Fremont 38 idea connected with it, and that initially I
4 think there -- that Sheryl believed and Cindy believed,
5 people in the Department, that potentially that money
6 could be used to launch some kind of project.
7 We -- she talked about having, you know, I think
8 she said like she could get a bunch of retired teachers
9 that could go and tutor, you know, kids in Arapahoe, and
10 something about coaches going out throughout the state and
11 helping people in schools teach the WYR method and things
12 like that. We just talked about that.
13 Q. At some point in time, did you and Ms. Lain
14 discuss the possibility of some of the employees within
15 the statewide system of support being involved with the
16 Wyoming Reads program?
17 A. I think that was a little later -- that wasn't
18 in our initial conversation, but, you know, down the road
19 a little bit, yeah, there was discussion of having my team
20 and as well as other department employees -- initially she
21 talked about other department employees taking the WYR
22 training so they could become familiar with it and use it
23 in their work in supporting districts.
24 Q. Did you express any concerns to Ms. Lain about
25 your employees from the statewide system of support taking
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 47
1 the Wyoming Reads training?
2 A. Well, initially I had a lot of questions about
3 it. Like the fact that even at that -- okay, so at that
4 time it was -- it was August. There had been significant
5 turnover within the Department. Many, many positions were
6 still unfilled. And I remember saying -- or asking her do
7 you not recognize that we are in the midst of a staffing
8 crisis, and she indicated she didn't see that, she didn't
9 think that we were.
10 But I had concerns about, you know, we didn't
11 have a budget to do a project like this, and that
12 taking -- taking employees from, you know, their current
13 duties and just planting them up at Arapahoe or, you know,
14 taking them away from their regular jobs or whatever, I
15 worried about how was that work going to get done, you
16 know, things like that, yeah.
17 Q. Prior to that discussion with Ms. Lain, had you
18 ever had a situation before where employees from the
19 statewide system of support had traveled to a school
20 district to -- to provide a program like Wyoming Reads to
21 the school district or to a school?
22 A. I had never heard of anything like that before,
23 no.
24 Q. At some point in time, in approximately the same
25 time frame, did you become aware that Ms. Lain had hired
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 48
1 two individuals, Jane Brutsman and Joan Brummond, related
2 to the WYR program at Arapahoe Elementary School?
3 A. Yes, that was right around that time during
4 summer camp, yes.
5 Q. Did you know who either Ms. Brutsman or
6 Ms. Brummond was before learning they had been hired by
7 Ms. Lain?
8 A. I think I knew them from my work with Laramie
9 County School District 1. I mean, I think I knew who they
10 were. I didn't know them really personally.
11 Q. When you learned that they had been hired, what
12 was your understanding with respect to whether they were
13 going to be working with you and others in the statewide
14 system of support, for all the school districts in the
15 state or just in Arapahoe?
16 A. Well, initially it was presented to me that --
17 that they would be SSoS coaches, that their focus -- their
18 area of expertise was more in the area of reading
19 instruction, but that they would be SSoS coaches
20 similar -- by that time, we were down to only four SSoS
21 coaches. From the time that I had started, I believe
22 three or four of them had resigned, and so there were some
23 open positions, and we had issued an RFP to hire coaches.
24 So they were asking if -- or Sheryl, I guess, and Cindy
25 were asking if Jane and Joan could use two of those
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 49
1 positions and said that they would function as SSoS
2 coaches.
3 Q. Did the other SSO coaches who were in place at
4 the time those two individuals were hired provide services
5 throughout the state or just in individual school
6 districts?
7 A. They provided services -- they -- the SSoS team
8 provided services to districts that were in various stages
9 of having not met adequate yearly progress, yes, around
10 the state.
11 Q. Have you had an opportunity or did you have an
12 opportunity during your employment as a supervisor in SSoS
13 to review the contracts that Ms. Brutsman and Ms. Brummond
14 entered into with the State?
15 A. Yes, I've seen those contracts, yes.
16 Q. Were they any different than the contracts that
17 other SSoS coaches entered into?
18 A. No, I don't think so. I think they were exactly
19 the same.
20 Q. At some point in time, then, did you meet with
21 Ms. Lain, Ms. Brutsman and Ms. Brummond in Cheyenne to
22 further discuss the Wyoming Reads program?
23 A. Yes, we did. I remember a meeting at Arp
24 Elementary School. I think it was on a Sunday morning or
25 something, and we were -- we talked about details of the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 50
1 WYR training that would be provided to the tutors who were
2 employed at Arapahoe, yes.
3 Q. Were you originally told that the training that
4 the statewide system of support employees would receive
5 for Wyoming Reads was going to occur in Cheyenne?
6 A. Yes. Initially it was the -- the SSoS coaches
7 and the members of the district support and coordination
8 team that I supervised. Initially the -- what was
9 presented was that me and my staff would take -- take that
10 WYR training, and in fact, I think there was a term for it
11 called "WYR Line," and we would do the one hour of video
12 training or whatever, one hour a week, and that we
13 would -- there was talk that we would tutor a student, a
14 local student like possibly in an after-school program or
15 something, I think for a matter of a few weeks, I don't
16 know exactly, maybe six weeks, eight weeks or whatever, to
17 understand the WYR method, so that we could support
18 schools and districts in our work around the state.
19 there was a push -- there was kind of a push for us to
20 promote WYR as a school improvement intervention, things
21 like that. So initially it was -- it was presented
22 that -- that my staff would take that training to become
23 familiar -- more familiar with the method, yes.
24 Q. And then at some point in time were you told
25 that your staff would not be training in Cheyenne, but
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 51
1 that instead they needed to go to Arapahoe?
2 A. Yes,Iwas.
3 Q. Andwhotoldyouthat?
4 A. Well, I don't -- I don't know -- I don't know
5 that I was told directly because, to be honest, after that
6 meeting with Sheryl Lain in Evanston, where I had those
7 questions and I challenged the -- you know, the
8 Department's capacity to be able to deliver on an
9 initiative like that at that time, she -- I noticed a
10 difference in our relationship. She was not communicating
11 with me directly. I felt that I was being, you know, kind
12 of pushed out, excluded from, you know, meetings where
13 these kinds of decisions were being made and things.
14 So I don't know that I was told directly, but I
15 know that the word came to me that me and my staff were
16 expected to go up to Fremont 38, live there, and tutor
17 students, yeah.
18 Q. Did you have any concerns about that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what were those concerns?
21 A. Well, let's see. Primarily, you know, to me the
22 big question -- the obvious question was -- and I did ask
23 this of Sheryl -- what are we supposed to do about our
24 full-time work? You know, districts were expecting a
25 certain level of service that they had come to expect.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 52
1 And my team was very concerned that we weren't going to be
2 able to provide that level of service.
3 But not only that, you know, the coaches were
4 paid -- 80 percent of the coaches' salaries were paid from
5 federal funds, and there were very -- under Title I,
6 there's a section called Section 1117, and there were very
7 clear regulations around what the statewide system of
8 support needed to do with schools that weren't making
9 adequate yearly progress, and WYR didn't -- didn't meet
10 those obligations.
11 So I was concerned that we were going to -- you
12 know, by having to devote ourselves full time to this
13 initiative at Arapahoe, that other -- other work was going
14 to suffer and that potentially we may not be fulfilling
15 our obligation on the federal side.
16 Q. At some point in time before going to Arapahoe
17 to train, did you express any of those concerns to John
18 Masters?
19 A. Yes,Idid.
20 Q. What was John Masters' position within the
21 Department at that time?
22 A. He was -- he was -- I don't know if I can tell
23 you the exact title, but he was legal counsel to the
24 superintendent. That was his position.
25 Q. And you expressed some of the same concerns that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 53
1 you just described now for the committee to Mr. Masters?
2 A. Yes,Idid.
3 Q. If you'll look in the exhibit book at Exhibit
4 Number 4, behind the Eisenhauer tab, do you recognize this
5 document?
6 A. Yes,Ido.
7 Q. Andwhatisit?
8 A. This is a copy of three pages of John Masters'
9 handwritten notes from a meeting that I had with him on
10 August 25th to discuss the Fremont 38 project.
11 Q. These notes are from the same meeting you just
12 described to the committee --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- where you expressed your concerns about
15 the -- your department and your employees going to Fremont
16 38?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How long did this meeting last, if you remember?
19 A. I think, as I recall, it was -- it was over an
20 hour. It was -- you know, we were -- we talked about this
21 at some length.
22 Q. Do these notes reflect some of the concerns that
23 you raised to Mr. Masters?
24 A. Yes,theydo.
25 Q. What did Mr. Masters tell you would happen after
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 54
1 the meeting, if anything?
2 A. Well, I went to John Masters because -- well,
3 what he said would happen -- you know, I was very
4 concerned about all these things, and they're listed in
5 these notes, that we didn't have a budget, that there was
6 no MOU with Fremont 38. I was concerned about liability,
7 about background, you know, doing background checks,
8 liability for me and my staff to go up there and be
9 working directly with students.
10 There were a lot of questions around use of
11 Title I funds. There's a requirement for qualifications
12 of paraprofessionals under Title I, and I felt that many
13 of the tutors that they had hired, including, you know, my
14 own staff, possibly didn't meet that -- those
15 qualifications, things like that. And that's -- that's
16 all outlined in these notes.
17 But when I met with John Masters, it was a
18 very -- very friendly meeting, and he agreed with -- with
19 all of it. He -- I said that I was very concerned because
20 I was hearing that Sheryl Lain wanted us to be up there
21 right after Labor Day, which was at this time in about a
22 week, and that none of these questions had been answered.
23 I had tried to get answers from Sheryl and wasn't able --
24 wasn't able to really get any clear answers on any of
25 this.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 55
1 SoIwenttoJohnMasters. Andhis--I
2 remember his comment was -- I said, you know -- he said,
3 "We need to get a meeting with Sheryl." And I said,
4 "Well, it needs to happen soon because I'm hearing that
5 we're supposed to be up there next week." And he said,
6 "Nobody's going anywhere until all of these questions are
7 answered." So he said there would -- he would arrange a
8 meeting with leadership or with Sheryl or whatever so that
9 we could begin to answer some of these questions.
10 Q. Did you then have a meeting with Ms. Lain and
11 Mr. Masters as a follow-up to your meeting with
12 Mr. Masters?
13 A. No,wedidn't.
14 Q. Doyouknowwhynot?
15 A. Well, the following day, I went to John Masters'
16 office and asked him if he had arranged a meeting with
17 Sheryl Lain to talk about this. And he -- his response to
18 me was, "You need to talk to Cindy about that." And I
19 said, well -- I think this was on a Friday. I said,
20 "Well, we need to do something quickly, because, you know,
21 I think she's saying now that me and my team are supposed
22 to be up there next week." And I remember he didn't even
23 make eye contact with me. He just said, "You need to talk
24 to Cindy."
25 Q. So then did you talk to Superintendent Hill?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 56
1 A. We had a discussion about the Arapahoe project
2 I think it was the next Monday morning in her office as
3 part of the leadership team meeting.
4 Q. Do you recall who was at that meeting?
5 A. I know -- well, I know I was, and I know Cindy
6 was, and it seems to me that -- that maybe John Masters
7 and Sheryl Lain were. I'm not exactly sure of -- of who
8 all was there, but I mean, it seems like I remember it as
9 a regular leadership meeting, so I would say they were.
10 Q. Were some of the concerns you had about the
11 Wyoming Reads program at Arapahoe Elementary School then
12 addressed by Superintendent Hill at that meeting?
13 A. Not specifically. What I remember was that the
14 superintendent said -- we talked about the project in
15 general, and she said that -- something about she didn't
16 want to hear any negativity about it, that we weren't
17 going to waste a lot of time planning when there were kids
18 out there that needed our help, and that she was asking
19 all of us to support this project and be on board with it;
20 that we were going to do -- that we were going to go
21 forward with it because there were kids that needed help.
22 Q. Did you receive any kind of direction at that
23 meeting or after about what you and your team were
24 supposed to do in terms of whether to go to Arapahoe or
25 not?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 57
1 A. We were ordered -- yeah, we were ordered to go
2 to Arapahoe.
3 Q. Do you recall when you first then went to
4 Arapahoe?
5 A. I think we -- we traveled up there the day after
6 Labor Day, that was -- Labor Day was a holiday for state
7 employees. We traveled the following day.
8 Q. When you say "we," who else traveled with you?
9 A. Well, what we did -- what we were -- what we
10 did was -- so at that time on my team, there were --
11 there were four SSoS coaches, and by that time there were
12 only two consultants, and two had quit and they hadn't
13 rehired -- or maybe they used those positions to hire
14 other positions, I'm not sure, but I didn't have them.
15 We divided ourselves in half, and half the team
16 would be up tutoring at Arapahoe while the other half was
17 in Cheyenne doing, you know, the other work. And then the
18 next week the team that was in Cheyenne would go to
19 Arapahoe, so we kind of flip-flopped so that everybody had
20 at least half time to be able to be at home with their
21 families and do their jobs, and then the other half we
22 spent at Arapahoe. And I'm sorry, your question was
23 who -- who --
24 Q. You may not remember who initially traveled up
25 to Arapahoe with you that first time you went up there.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 58
1 A. I -- I think the very first week, I think it was
2 Roy Hoyle, one of my consultants, myself, and Paige Fenton
3 Hughes and Craig Sorensen. I think we were the first
4 teams to do the tutoring.
5 Q. But then in subsequent weeks and months other
6 coaches from SSoS went --
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. -- up there as well, correct?
9 A. Uh-huh. Do you want me to name them?
10 Q. Sure.
11 A. Sandy Porter, Joy Mockelmann and Dianne Frazier
12 and Lori Hernandez.
13 Q. So at one time or another, all of the coaches
14 from the statewide system of support traveled to Arapahoe
15 to participate in the Wyoming Reads program?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then also were there employees from the
18 district support and coordination team?
19 A. I'm sorry, yes, I mentioned them, Roy Hoyle,
20 Dianne Frazier and Lori Hernandez were the district
21 support and coordination team members, yeah.
22 Q. After you first went to Arapahoe after the Labor
23 Day holiday, did you have an opportunity to meet with
24 Ms. Brutsman and Ms. Brummond with respect to what was
25 going to happen in the coming weeks?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 59
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what happened at that meeting?
3 A. Well, it was my understanding that they were
4 being -- contracts were in process and they were going to
5 be hired as SSoS coaches, so I did kind of an overview of
6 SSoS and the federal regulations. We had a logic model
7 that we had developed, and so I was just kind of doing an
8 overview or kind of an orientation for them and talked
9 about, you know, statewide system of support and kind of
10 general terms. And they -- I remember at that meeting
11 Jane Brutsman gave me a copy of the schedule she had
12 prepared for WYR tutoring.
13 Q. Now, before she gave you that schedule, was it
14 still your understanding that you and your employees would
15 be training in the Wyoming Reads program by tutoring -- by
16 each tutoring one student?
17 A. Yes. That was the agreement, yeah.
18 Q. And did the schedule change your understanding
19 -- the schedule that you received from those two
20 individuals change your understanding of what was expected
21 of you?
22 A. The schedule that they gave me, she had
23 scheduled each of us to tutor full time, that is, to tutor
24 eight students per day. And I told her that that was a
25 mistake, that that -- she must have misunderstood, because
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 60
1 we were only supposed to be taking one student just to get
2 the training. We weren't -- we weren't -- the expectation
3 wasn't that we were going to be full-time tutors, because
4 we had our other work.
5 Q. So your understanding was that this was still --
6 you were up there as part of the process of being trained
7 for the Wyoming Reads program, but you were going to
8 maintain your other responsibilities with the statewide
9 system of support?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. All right. Did you at that point in time agree
12 to tutor more than one student a day as part of the
13 training that you and your employees received?
14 A. Well, what I -- what I said to her -- and she
15 was very nice about it, and she said, "Oh, I'm sorry, I
16 must have misunderstood that," and she said, "I'll change
17 the schedule." What I said to her was, "You know, if
18 we're going to be here and we're going to drive out here
19 and we're going to tutor one student," I said, "go ahead
20 and put two." You know, because, you know, chances
21 were -- I mean, there was a possibility that the one
22 student that we were assigned to could be absent or
23 something, and so kind of as a -- as a compromise, or, you
24 know, in an effort to help out, I agreed that we would
25 take two students -- I mean, we would each take two
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 61
1 students.
2 Q. What was your understanding with respect to how
3 much of -- your expectation as to how much of your day in
4 Arapahoe would be spent tutoring students and how much of
5 your day would be spent with your regular full-time
6 responsibilities?
7 A. Well, initially -- so we agreed to do the
8 tutoring at the beginning of the day. I think the
9 school day started at 8:00 or something like that. So
10 we were going to do the first two class periods, and then
11 we had made arrangements to work at the Riverton office.
12 Peg Brown-Clark had -- she had arranged office space for
13 us so that we could have Internet, telephone, access to
14 copy machine, and all that. So we were going to drive out
15 there, tutor our two students, and then go back to
16 Riverton. We were staying in Riverton at the time, you
17 know, each week. So then we would go back to Riverton and
18 finish our workday out of that office. That was -- that
19 was the initial -- initial expectation.
20 Q. Did you initially do that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did something change?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You received a phone call from Superintendent
25 Hill, correct?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 62
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Describe for the committee the phone call that
3 you received from Superintendent Hill.
4 A. Well, it was in the evening, and I -- I received
5 a phone call, and Superintendent Hill was on the line.
6 Sheryl -- I was told Sheryl Lain was also on the line and
7 that Jane Brummond and Joan Brutsman were also on the
8 line. I don't know if they were all together or what, but
9 I spoke to them.
10 And it seemed to me that the superintendent --
11 the superintendent was upset, and she was saying, "What's
12 going on with -- you know, up there? I'm hearing that you
13 guys are only tutoring two students a day. Why am I
14 paying hotel and meals and all this?" And, you know, she
15 seemed kind of upset. I said, "Well, wait a minute, wait
16 a minute," I said, "the agreement was that we would, you
17 know, take the training and that we would tutor one
18 student," I said, "but I agreed -- I agreed to do two."
19 And I said, "We still have full-time jobs, you know, we
20 still have our other work to do, and, you know, this is --
21 this is what we're doing."
22 And Sheryl Lain was on the line, and she seemed
23 insistent, I guess you would say, that -- she seemed put
24 out, upset or whatever, and indicated that she wanted us
25 to tutor full time at Arapahoe. And I just -- I mean, it
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 63
1 just seemed to me that was -- that was -- I didn't
2 understand that at all. You know, how do you just step
3 away from full-time jobs and, you know, responsibilities
4 to all the districts in the state.
5 Sowetalkedaboutthat. Wekindofhada
6 discussion, went back and forth, and, you know, Cindy kind
7 of -- the superintendent kind of acted -- seemed to me
8 kind of like a mediator. And she asked me -- she said,
9 "So what about this -- you know, would you be willing --
10 would you guys be willing to take four students, that's
11 like, you know, to do a half and half kind of thing, and
12 then do your work in the afternoon?" And I think -- I
13 said to her again, you know, "Cindy, you're the
14 superintendent. You know, we will do whatever you ask us
15 to do, but, you know, I'm telling you that this other work
16 doesn't just go away. It has to be done, and I'm
17 concerned that districts are going to be upset that, you
18 know, there's work that needs to be done here as well."
19 And she said that -- you know, she said, "Don't
20 worry about that. I'll take -- you know, I'll take care
21 of that. Will you be willing to do this?" And I said
22 that I agreed to that, that we would. And I said that we
23 would work at Arapahoe in the morning, and then around
24 11:30 or whatever, we would -- in conjunction with our
25 lunch break we would drive back to Riverton and work in
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 64
1 Riverton in the afternoon. But Sheryl Lain was not happy
2 with that.
3 You know, the problem -- the problem was, and I
4 explained this, that the Internet service -- there was a
5 wireless Internet service, but the building had concrete
6 block walls. So like where the router was, if the door to
7 that room was closed, then, you know, you didn't get an
8 Internet signal. You had to go out in the parking lot,
9 stand in the parking lot to get a cell phone signal. You
10 couldn't get phone service inside the building. We didn't
11 have a copier. There were lots of -- of challenges to
12 working in that environment with that project. So I had
13 said, you know, we would work in the Riverton office, but
14 on that phone call, same phone call, Sheryl said, "No, I
15 want you at Arapahoe all day."
16 Q. So was that what you did?
17 A. That's what -- that's what I agreed to.
18 Q. I think you testified about how --
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, if I could
20 interrupt. We've been going now for about an hour and a
21 half. If you are at a logical point to break, I think, at
22 least for Kathy's benefit, we should take a break.
23 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, now would be an
24 appropriate time.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We'll come back at quarter
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 65
1 to 10:00.
2 (Hearing proceedings recessed
3 9:26 a.m. to 9:48 a.m.)
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Just a matter of
5 clarification, during the break Superintendent Hill asked
6 if she could bring a deputy with her into executive
7 session. I've consulted with counsel, and we believe that
8 that's appropriate. So if there are no objections, I'm
9 going to amend it to the rules to allow a deputy to come
10 in. When we go into executive session, superintendent will
11 be allowed to bring a deputy. Is there any objection from
12 anyone? Of course, subject to being bound by the same
13 rules of confidentiality that we're bound by.
14 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Lubnau.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes, ma'am.
16 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Just a point before
17 we continue that I want to make certain. I do not have
18 counsel. That's why I required the deputy.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Superintendent Hill
20 doesn't have counsel, that point is noted.
21 Counsel, if you'd like to continue.
22 MR. JAROSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
23 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) Ms. Eisenhauer, you understand
24 you're still under oath?
25 A. I do.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 66
1 Q. You've walked us through up until about a week
2 into your staff's work at Arapahoe Elementary School. I
3 want to provide some context for the committee. When
4 you're talking about you and your staff tutoring students,
5 can you sort of paint the picture for everyone in terms of
6 what it is that you were doing with the students?
7 A. Yeah. We -- we each had three or four students
8 assigned to us. Initially it was -- well, after that
9 conversation with the superintendent and Sheryl Lain, we
10 each had four, but then at one point they had -- the
11 school asked to change the schedule because the seventh
12 graders we were tutoring needed to do a math intervention
13 or something, and so we were down to three, but that
14 was -- that was to accommodate the school.
15 We would -- we would -- we were in a building
16 that was formerly the Arapahoe Middle School, and we would
17 walk from that building to Arapahoe Elementary School and
18 go to a classroom -- the -- by we I mean the tutors as a
19 group -- and pick up a student, walk them back to the
20 middle school building, and we would have a 30-minute
21 session, WYR session, where we would follow this protocol
22 that we had learned in this -- this training. And each
23 student had a book, and we would do different reading
24 strategies with them in the course of that half-hour
25 session and then walk them back.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 67
1 Q. And in your mind, what -- what duties or
2 responsibilities should your employees have been
3 fulfilling as opposed to tutoring?
4 A. Well, in previous years, I believe they would
5 have been working on school improvement. They would have
6 been helping schools, answering questions around school
7 improvement plans. They would have been, you know,
8 providing technical assistance. Prior to me coming to the
9 Department or Superintendent Hill coming to the
10 department, they did organizational assessments. There
11 was just a variety of work, depending on what the
12 districts needed and what stage -- you know, what level of
13 assistance they required or asked for. You know, it was a
14 variety of school improvement tasks.
15 Q. Who -- who was the person that was ultimately
16 responsible for or in charge of implementation of the WYR
17 program at Arapahoe Elementary School?
18 A. I would say it was Sheryl Lain in that she
19 made -- she was making all the decisions. She wasn't at
20 Arapahoe physically, but in that -- she was working
21 through Jane Brutsman and Joe Brummond and Tori Lesher to
22 make the decisions related to that project.
23 Q. You testified earlier about how the employees
24 under your supervision, how their positions were paid for
25 in terms of federal and state funding. Were any of the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 68
1 individuals who did tutoring at Arapahoe Elementary
2 School, were any of those positions funded with federal
3 dollars?
4 A. Well, aside from myself and my staff, there
5 were I think about a dozen tutors that had been hired by
6 Sheryl Lain and Jane Brutsman and Joan Brummond. And I
7 wasn't involved in the recruitment or selection or hiring
8 of those people, so I can't -- I know that initially for
9 about the first month there was no MOU with Fremont 38,
10 and, you know, there were a lot of questions about who was
11 going to pay them and how they were going to get paid.
12 But to my knowledge, they weren't paid with federal
13 dollars, but I really wasn't involved in that, so that --
14 I -- I don't know.
15 Q. But the employees that you supervised --
16 A. Oh, that I supervised?
17 Q. Yes. Thatyou--
18 A. Yeah,yeah.
19 Q. --supervised--
20 A. Yeah, they were paid -- yeah, the coaches were
21 paid -- about 80 percent was federal money that had been
22 given specifically to do that SSoS work, yeah.
23 Q. You mentioned the tutors who you didn't hire, I
24 think you said were hired by Ms. Lain and others. Did you
25 have any concerns about the qualifications of any of those
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 69
1 individuals?
2 A. Well, under Title I there -- you know, there are
3 requirements for paraprofessionals who work -- who work as
4 part of initiatives that are funded with Title I dollars,
5 and there are requirements for paraprofessional
6 qualifications. My concern was related to that, not just
7 specific to the Arapahoe tutors that were hired by Lain
8 and Brutsman and Brummond, but also my own staff. You
9 know, I have a master's degree in special education, and,
10 you know, English, journalism, a lot of things, but I'm
11 not a certified reading teacher. So, you know, I had
12 members of my staff that had been licensed as teachers,
13 principals, et cetera, but weren't necessarily properly
14 qualified to be delivering reading instruction. So, yeah,
15 concerns overall, yes, I did.
16 Q. Were you ever given any indication that any of
17 the nonDepartment of Employment -- Education tutors had
18 prior relationships with Ms. Lain or Superintendent Hill?
19 A. The tutors -- the nonWDE tutors?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. When we came to Arapahoe after Labor Day, that
22 was kind of the kickoff of the program, so they -- they
23 had just started. In the course of our time there, we
24 were there for about -- about two months in all, September
25 and October. But there was, you know, the original group
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 70
1 of those of us who started, and then a couple weeks into
2 it there was a new girl that started, a new tutor. And
3 just in conversation, we asked her how she heard about it
4 or how she came to be hired or whatever, and she said that
5 her -- it wasn't in connection with Sheryl Lain, but she
6 said her father worked at the same law firm as Drake Hill,
7 so it was, I guess, a connection with Cindy.
8 And then just before I left, it must have been
9 about the middle of October, there were two or three new
10 young men that showed -- showed up one day and began
11 tutoring. And Joan Brummond -- I didn't even ask where
12 they came from or how they got there, but Joan Brummond
13 volunteered. She told me that these boys -- or young men
14 were originally hired at the same time as all the other
15 tutors, but that they couldn't start at the beginning of
16 September because they coached baseball with Sheryl's son,
17 Tagg Lain, and that they had to wait for the baseball
18 season to finish, which is why they were just coming like
19 mid-October.
20 But that's -- as far as prior -- those tutors, I
21 didn't know them all that well. But those -- those are
22 the only connections that I was aware of connections with
23 Sheryl Lain. There may have been others, but I don't -- I
24 don't know about them.
25 Q. While the Department of Education employees that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 71
1 you supervised were in Arapahoe, I think you said that you
2 stayed at hotels in Riverton?
3 A. We did.
4 Q. And received per diems?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then just to clarify, employees would go up
7 for a couple of days or a week at a time and then come
8 back, and they would sort of trade out with the employees
9 who had stayed behind?
10 A. That'scorrect.
11 Q. Did you believe that the use of your employees
12 that you supervised with the Department of Education, the
13 use of them in Arapahoe was a misuse of federal funds?
14 A. Well, I did in that we were -- we were given
15 those federal funds under our state plan. We agreed --
16 Wyoming -- State of Wyoming agreed to do certain things
17 related to schools that were in AYP, and Jane Brutsman,
18 Joan Brummond and the other SSoS coaches, to work
19 exclusively at Arapahoe for the period of time that we
20 did -- Jane Brummond and Joan Brutsman ended up working
21 from I think August to March or something like that, I'm
22 not exactly sure. But even my coaches, to be exclusively
23 dedicated there for the months of September and October,
24 I -- I did not think that that was appropriate use of
25 those funds.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 72
1 Q. Did you have any concern with respect to the
2 fact that Department of Education employees were doing
3 one-on-one tutoring with students in terms of the
4 curriculum that may or may not exist at Arapahoe
5 Elementary School?
6 A. Well, yeah. I just felt like at a state level,
7 for us to go into a district, to go into a school, for
8 state-level employees to be doing one-on-one direct
9 services to students, that just didn't make sense to me.
10 It just -- you know, it -- I didn't -- I never did really
11 understand the rationale behind it, other than, you know,
12 in the time that we were there, I don't know what the
13 total cost was for our expenses and, you know, all that,
14 but other than the fact that we spent some time reading
15 with a dozen kids, and, you know, hopefully help them
16 improve their reading skills a little bit, but it just
17 didn't make sense to me --
18 Q. Would you --
19 A. -- why we were there.
20 Q. Would you turn to Exhibit Number 5 in your
21 exhibit notebook. This is an e-mail from then
22 Superintendent Steve Henderson to Mr. Masters regarding
23 issues with a tutor and the need -- perceived need to
24 terminate that tutor. Do you see that?
25 A. I do.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 73
1 Q. And then Mr. Masters' response, where he states,
2 "Hi Steve. We view these guys as your contractors/
3 employees and they have no rights as tenured or permanent
4 employees so it'd be your call. I think Joan or Jane
5 would like to know a bit in advance. You might also want
6 to let Tracy know."
7 Did you have some concerns or even some
8 confusion about whose employees were who, and who was
9 responsible for managing and supervising tutors at Fremont
10 38?
11 A. Well, there was a lot of confusion around many
12 different issues up there. I do know -- I was at a
13 meeting in September when John Masters I think -- and
14 Kevin Lewis had come up to present the first draft of a
15 Memorandum of Understanding, MOU, with the District, and I
16 know that there was a lot of discussion.
17 Tracy Copenhaver, who was the attorney for
18 Fremont 38 school board, and I believe Karen Brown, who
19 was the chairman of the board, were -- it was -- it wasn't
20 a formal meeting. It was kind of a work session related
21 to discussion of this MOU. But I remember I believe it
22 was Mr. Copenhaver who asked about the tutors and said,
23 "Well, who is -- who is actually responsible for paying
24 these people?" And John Masters' reply was, "Well, we're
25 hoping that you will." And this was probably three weeks
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 74
1 into the program. We had already been tutoring for three
2 weeks, and they were just having that discussion.
3 So, yeah, I think there was confusion around,
4 you know, who -- who employed them, who supervised them,
5 things like that.
6 Q. Did you have any concerns about the reliability
7 or validity of the Wyoming Reads program itself?
8 A. Well, many, many times in the -- it came up --
9 one of the -- one of the concerns that I heard -- that I
10 was aware of and that I had heard discussed among our
11 federal programs division was the fact that Title I
12 requires for initiatives and programs that are implemented
13 using Title I funds, there's a requirement that those
14 programs be scientifically research based, and WYR was
15 not.
16 So in terms of the validity, reliability, I
17 don't know that -- I know that it doesn't meet the
18 definition of scientifically research based, but I guess
19 in addition to that, I had concerns about the -- the data
20 collection system. When we first went in -- in fact, it
21 was I think the first day -- we were to do what's called a
22 Jerry Johns assessment with each of our students to
23 establish a baseline, kind of a retest score. And we had
24 only had like a couple hours of video training where we
25 had watched Victoria Lesher administer a Jerry Johns
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 75
1 assessment on a student. We had never had an opportunity
2 to practice or anything like that.
3 And in the course of that day -- it was very
4 confusing. In the course of that day, there was some
5 discussion among the tutors that it was apparent that we
6 were doing it different ways. Some people would stop when
7 the student hit the first incorrect word, others would go
8 on until they had, you know, hit several incorrect words.
9 AndsoattheendofthedaywetalkedtoJane
10 and Joan about it. There was a lot of confusion. And,
11 again, this was a -- this was supposed to be a valid
12 pretest measurement. And there was even confusion
13 among -- between Jane and Joan as to how we should be
14 doing it. And I do remember we asked, "So are we going to
15 have to reassess them?" And they said, "No, we'll just go
16 with it. Let's just move on."
17 So I had concerns about WYR in the sense that
18 this was a homemade program that Sheryl had invented, and
19 she -- you know, she was very proud of that, but that it
20 didn't meet the definition of research based.
21 And also concerned that the data collection
22 system that they were going to use to, I guess, measure
23 the effectiveness or something, that that wasn't valid or
24 reliable either.
25 Q. At some point in time were you directed to have
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 76
1 Joy Mockelmann assist Fremont 38 with applying for a
2 School Improvement Grant that included implementation of
3 Wyoming Reads at Fremont 38?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And was that after you were already up in
6 Arapahoe and the program had begun?
7 A. Yes. We started around the 1st of September,
8 and I believe that Joy was asked to go to Arapahoe -- or I
9 was told that Joy was going to go to Arapahoe -- that was
10 about around the 20th -- 20th, 21st, something like that,
11 of September.
12 Q. Will you turn to Exhibit 3 behind your name in
13 the notebook.
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Do you recognize this document?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. Whatisit?
18 A. It is a collection of text messages that took
19 place between myself and Sheryl Lain on it looks like
20 September 26th.
21 Q. And can you just sort of explain to the
22 committee what was going on with respect to these text
23 messages?
24 A. So I received -- it was September 26th at
25 5:48 p.m., it looks like. I received a text message from
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 77
1 Sheryl Lain, and she said talked with Joy, Christine asked
2 Joy -- that would be Christine Steele asked Joy
3 Mockelmann -- to stay at Arapahoe until the grant is
4 submitted. That was the text that Sheryl sent me.
5 And at 7:34 p.m. I replied, "She already
6 committed to work with the Greybull staff, and she should
7 honor that commitment. She'll be in Arapahoe Wednesday
8 night and meet with them Thursday morning, do the summit
9 from 10 to 2 then leave for Greybull. We don't have the
10 capacity to dedicate Joy exclusively to one district."
11 And then a few minutes later, 7:58 p.m., Sheryl
12 replied she must finish Arapahoe as per Christine and me.
13 And then at 8:05 I texted her and said, "What
14 should she tell Greybull?"
15 Q. And then did you ever receive a response to that
16 last text?
17 A. No.
18 Q. To your understanding, what did Miss Mockelmann
19 end up doing? Did she end up going to Greybull or did she
20 end up staying in Arapahoe?
21 A. She ended up staying in Arapahoe. She
22 rearranged her schedule to accommodate the request from
23 Sheryl and Christine.
24 Q. You testified a couple of times that the program
25 began at Arapahoe Elementary School before a Memorandum of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 78
1 Understanding between the Department and the school
2 district had been entered into, correct?
3 A. Yes. That'scorrect.
4 Q. Do you know how long you and your employees
5 worked in Fremont 38 before the Memorandum of
6 Understanding was entered into?
7 A. I don't think that was ever finalized the entire
8 time that we were there. We -- we left in mid to late
9 October, and it was my understanding that they were still
10 hammering out the details of that MOU at the end of
11 October.
12 Q. You testified earlier that when Ms. Brutsman and
13 Miss Brummond were first hired, they entered into standard
14 statewide system of support coaching contracts like the
15 other coaches that you supervised, correct?
16 A. Ibelieveso,yes.
17 Q. Did Ms. Brutsman or Ms. Brummond provide
18 services to any school district other than Fremont School
19 District Number 38?
20 A. Not that I'm aware of. It -- it was my
21 perception or observation that -- I know that they were
22 both living in the Riverton area or the Arapahoe area, at
23 least during the week. I don't know if they went home on
24 weekends, but Monday through Friday, they were living
25 there and working in Arapahoe.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 79
1 I do know that there were a couple of times that
2 Jane Brutsman would leave like early on a Friday afternoon
3 or something, but that was to -- she was also involved in
4 those T2T reading workshops that were going on around the
5 state, and so I remember at least once, seems like it
6 could have been a couple of times, that she left Arapahoe
7 like in mid-morning or something to meet up with the group
8 that was wherever they were doing their regional
9 workshops. But in terms of -- they were full-time reading
10 tutors, coaches at Arapahoe. They weren't doing SSoS work
11 in the same way the other coaches were doing SSoS work
12 with other districts.
13 Q. You mentioned at least once an individual by the
14 name of Victoria Lesher. Will you explain to the
15 committee what your understanding is with respect to what
16 her role was in terms of WYR?
17 A. In terms of WYR. Victoria Lesher was a sixth-
18 grade teacher at Arp Elementary School, and she was a
19 colleague of Sheryl Lain's, and she was -- as related to
20 this project, she was hired to provide video training --
21 she lives in Cheyenne, and she provided video training to
22 the tutors at Arapahoe. And I think it was on Tuesday
23 afternoons, like from 3:30 to 4:30 or 4:00 to 5:00,
24 something like that, we would meet in the Arapahoe library
25 and watch this one-hour training she provided. She had
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 80
1 one of her students from Arp Elementary School that was
2 sort of the demonstration student, and so she would go
3 through a WYR lesson, for example, or talk about different
4 strategies, techniques, things like that, and we would
5 watch it via WEN video. So that's what she did.
6 Q. Did she have a contract with the State of
7 Wyoming?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And at some point in time, were you asked to
10 sign her contract?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Didyou?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Will you tell the committee why not?
15 A. I was -- the contract process for Jane and Joan
16 and Victoria Lesher, it was -- it was -- took a long time,
17 and things, you know, just -- decisions were made. We
18 would -- I would think we were going in one direction, and
19 then, you know, there would be a decision, and -- and we
20 would go in a different direction, so it was -- it was
21 delayed. It took a long time.
22 By the time the contracts were finished, which I
23 think was mid to late September, it was pretty clear to me
24 that -- that those people associated with Arapahoe
25 project, the WYR project, really weren't going to be doing
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 81
1 SSoS work, which is what I supervised, that they were
2 going to be doing WYR work at Arapahoe and things like
3 that. So I wasn't comfortable -- those contracts had been
4 written -- for Jane and Joan, essentially they were
5 written as -- the same as SSoS coaches.
6 For -- for Tori, which was her nickname,
7 Victoria, it just -- you know, I had been kind of shut
8 out, excluded from discussions around this after I had
9 challenged Sheryl Lain on it, so I wasn't comfortable
10 supervising, being in a position of having to supervise or
11 monitor a contract. All I knew was that she -- I believe
12 the amount was $46,000, that she was going to be paid
13 $46,000 to do an hour a week of video training.
14 I didn't -- I didn't know of any other work that
15 had been assigned to her. I knew that she was still
16 teaching full time at Arp, and I just didn't feel
17 comfortable being in a position of having to monitor
18 contracts for people that I really had no authority over
19 or, you know, wasn't in the loop. So I -- I told -- I
20 think it was Marina, Sheryl's secretary, Sheryl's
21 administrative assistant, who asked me to sign it, and I
22 said, "I'm not going to be supervising Tori. You'll have
23 to get someone else to sign it."
24 Q. Will you turn to Exhibit 6 in the notebook. And
25 do you recognize this as Victoria Lesher's contract with
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 82
1 the State of Wyoming?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If you look at the signature page of the
4 contract, there is a signature line for you where it's
5 typed underneath the line "Gail Eisenhauer, Coordinator,"
6 do you see that?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Andthenhowisitsigned?
9 A. It says, "Christine Steele for Gail Eisenhauer,"
10 and it was signed on September 21st.
11 Q. Did you authorize Christine Steele to sign this
12 contract for you?
13 A. Absolutely not. I did not.
14 Q. Does it bother you that she signed it for you?
15 A. Yes, it does. I know for a fact that I was not
16 in Cheyenne at that time. I was up at Arapahoe. And I --
17 I never -- she never talked to me about this, called me or
18 anything. Yeah, it does bother me that she signed it for
19 me. She wasn't authorized to do so.
20 Q. When was the first time you learned that she had
21 signed the contract for you?
22 A. It was after I -- it was after I had come back
23 from Arapahoe, actually, I discovered this -- I was on the
24 Department of Ed finance -- it's on team center, it's a
25 finance division, where you can look at contracts and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 83
1 related documents and things like that, and I actually saw
2 this just kind of by mistake, that I happened to come
3 across it.
4 Q. You described for the committee a number of
5 concerns that you had and have with respect to what
6 happened in Fremont 38. Did those things have anything to
7 do with you leaving your supervisory position?
8 A. Yes,theydid.
9 Q. Can you explain in a little bit more detail how
10 that came about?
11 A. As a result of some -- some things that happened
12 related to the Fremont 38 project -- and to be quite
13 frank, the way that I was being treated by Sheryl Lain and
14 Christine Steele, and Kevin Lewis by that time, which was,
15 you know, just very rude, very -- very -- you know,
16 treated like I was an outsider, not being included in any
17 kind of meaningful communications, decisions being made
18 about the work of the people that -- that worked for me,
19 decisions being made, I wasn't included in those
20 discussions, things like that.
21 I felt that -- I really felt I couldn't be
22 effective in that position, that I had no authority over
23 the work of my staff, that I had no authority over budgets
24 that at least on paper it looked like I was related -- or
25 responsible for. I wasn't willing to monitor contracts
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 84
1 for people where the contracts said that they were doing
2 certain work and I knew for a fact that they were not, in
3 fact, doing that work. And so I -- I had a conversation
4 with the superintendent about -- and said, "I don't feel
5 that I can be effective in this position."
6 And she had always talked about me having more
7 of a role with institutional schools and we talked about
8 that, and it was decided that I would move from the
9 supervisor position for SSoS/DSCT and move into a role
10 with special programs. I do have a background in special
11 education, and that, along with that, that I would assume
12 more of a role in working with institutional schools and
13 things like that.
14 Q. I want to briefly ask you about a photograph
15 that you took that will become more important when other
16 witnesses testify. But did you attend a meeting on
17 November 19th of 2012 involving Superintendent Hill and
18 others in the department?
19 A. No, I wasn't invited to that meeting.
20 Q. We'll hear some testimony about that meeting
21 later, but did you go into the room after the meeting
22 occurred?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And why did you do that?
25 A. One of my coworkers came into my office. My
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 85
1 office at that time was downstairs on the first floor
2 across the hall from that room where they had the meeting.
3 And one of my coworkers came into my office in the
4 afternoon -- late in the afternoon, and said, "Come here,
5 I want to -- I want you to see something" -- or she said,
6 "Come here, you've got to look at this," or something like
7 that. And she suggested that I bring my iPad which I had
8 on my desk. And I did, I followed her into the room.
9 Q. Will you take a look at Exhibit Number 2 behind
10 your name. Do you recognize that?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. And what is it?
13 A. It's a picture that I took with my iPad of the
14 whiteboard that was in Room 126, we call it the bridge
15 room, that was across the hall from my office.
16 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, that's all the
17 questions that I have for this witness. The procedures
18 provide that the committee ask questions, and then
19 Superintendent Hill submitted questions to be asked, but I
20 do have in front of me Superintendent Hill's questions that
21 you asked me to ask this witness, and I wasn't sure if you
22 wanted me to ask those now or if you want me to wait until
23 after the committee has had an opportunity.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Committee, what's your
25 preference? Would you rather that Superintendent Hill's
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 86
1 questions be asked now and then you do the follow-up and
2 then Superintendent Hill's subsequent questions be asked or
3 would you prefer to ask questions now and then have the
4 questions -- you want me to just make a decision?
5 Madam Minority Floor Leader. Minority --
6 whatever. Mary.
7 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Yes, Mary, that
8 always works. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
9 I think it makes sense for Superintendent Hill's
10 questions to be asked prior to the committee, so that we
11 don't have any concerns over duplication.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Rob, go ahead and ask
13 them.
14 And for everybody who's listening on the Web or
15 in the audience, Superintendent Hill has provided a list of
16 questions. There's a general question -- or a page of
17 general questions at the beginning, and then for each
18 particular witness, there's a list of questions. I note
19 that for specific questions of Ms. Eisenhauer, questions 1
20 and 2 have already been asked.
21 Mr. Jarosh, go ahead.
22 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Speaker.
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes, ma'am.
24 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I'm not clear. The
25 subsequent questions that would be specific, when would
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 87
1 those be asked.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: They'll be asked right now
3 too. Or, no, the subsequent questions, you mean based on
4 the testimony that you just heard?
5 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Yes.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: That would be after the
7 committee's asked questions. So we'll finish all of our
8 questioning, then you can submit your additional questions,
9 and we'll ask those then.
10 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Okay.
11 MR. JAROSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
12 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) Ms. Eisenhauer, are you
13 represented by counsel?
14 A. Well, you mean right now? Or ever in my life
15 or --
16 Q. I -- I believe the question -- I don't know for
17 certain because it's one of Superintendent Hill's
18 questions, but I believe the question is with respect to
19 are you represented by counsel pursuant to -- for these
20 proceedings?
21 A. I -- I guess I don't understand. I mean, my --
22 I have consulted with an attorney. She's not here today,
23 so I don't know technically how --
24 Q. And --
25 A. -- I would answer that.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 88
1 Q. Who is the attorney you consulted with?
2 A. GayWoodhouse.
3 Q. Have you ever testified under oath before today?
4 A. Hmm. Yes.
5 Q. When? Or I'm sorry. The question is please
6 describe.
7 A. Well, I would just say when I worked for
8 Attention Homes as education director, I worked with a lot
9 of court-placed kids, and there were court proceedings. I
10 did attend court proceedings related to some of my
11 students, not frequently, not very often, but I did have
12 occasion to have to testify in a couple of instances.
13 Q. Superintendent Hill's next question is are you
14 familiar with the penalties for perjury, that you are
15 subject to those penalties should you provide false
16 testimony?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who asked you to come testify today?
19 A. I received a subpoena, I believe, from the
20 State.
21 Q. Did you speak with anyone prior to today about
22 your testimony before this committee, including
23 Mr. Jarosh, Mr. Salzburg or representatives from their
24 firms, members of the legislature, other staff or
25 employees of the State, such as the governor's office or
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 89
1 the Wyoming Department of Education?
2 A. Well, did I speak with them about my testimony,
3 like -- would that include saying like to my mom and dad,
4 I said, "I was subpoenaed, I'm going to appear. I'm going
5 to have to testify before this investigative committee,"
6 is that speaking to somebody about my testimony?
7 Q. I believe, although I can't say for certain, the
8 intent of the question is about the substance of the
9 testimony that you were going to provide.
10 A. The substance of my testimony? Okay. So I did
11 meet with you, Mr. Jarosh. Who all did -- did that
12 question include? I didn't talk to any legislators.
13 Q. Mr. Salzburg or other representatives from our
14 firms.
15 A. I met with you and Mr. Salzburg at one time,
16 yes.
17 Q. Members of the legislature?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Other staff or employees of the State, such as
20 the governor's office or the Department?
21 A. Did I talk about the content of my testimony?
22 Hmm. Possibly. I mean, I could have said to somebody
23 they want me to testify in relation to Fremont 38, et
24 cetera, et cetera, yeah.
25 Q. And maybe this will help. I'll ask these
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 90
1 follow-up questions from Superintendent Hill. When did
2 you speak with -- well, we'll start with when did you
3 speak with me and Mr. Salzburg?
4 A. I don't remember. I mean, I remember speaking
5 with you, but I couldn't put an exact date on it. I
6 would -- I would say -- I'm trying to think of something I
7 could anchor it to. I would say maybe in October. I
8 don't know. Maybe October or November, I forget.
9 Q. How long was your conversation with me and
10 Mr. Salzburg?
11 A. Couple of hours I would say.
12 Q. Please describe in detail those discussions.
13 A. It was -- in a sense, it was very similar to
14 what I had done with that Cathy MacPherson inquiry report.
15 You asked me to talk about -- I think that you had read
16 the inquiry report or something and asked me, you know, to
17 talk about what happened at Fremont 38 and things related
18 to -- things I talked about today, me being asked to sign
19 an at-will letter, things like that.
20 Q. Did I or Mr. Salzburg give you any instructions?
21 A. Instructions? I don't think so. I mean, I
22 can't -- I don't really understand that question.
23 Instructions for what? Like --
24 Q. I'll ask you the follow-up question. Did the
25 attorneys or their representatives instruct you that your
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 91
1 testimony must be truthful and that it must be based on
2 personal knowledge or observation and could not be based
3 on speculation, conjecture or opinion?
4 A. Well, obviously it must be truthful. You know,
5 my understanding was that I was subpoenaed, I was going to
6 come here and I was -- they were going to ask questions
7 and I would answer them honestly. So, again, that's kind
8 of -- that question is a little obtuse.
9 You'd -- I don't remember. Did you instruct me
10 that it was going to be truthful -- you know, I never felt
11 at any time that you told me what to say or tried to in
12 any way manipulate or distort what my testimony -- so I
13 don't -- that's what I have to say.
14 Q. Other than Mr. Salzburg and I, do you recall
15 speaking with anyone else about your testimony prior to
16 today, other than Ms. Woodhouse, your attorney?
17 A. Well, like, yeah, I've talked to my family about
18 it. Not -- not necessarily the content of what I was
19 going to testify, because, you know, they -- they already
20 have heard about that, but I talked to -- you know, the
21 fact that I was going to testify, you know, as -- the way
22 I look at it is what I said today was the truth, and I'll
23 talk to whomever I please about it.
24 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
25 relating to your testimony?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 92
1 A. Right at this very minute? Me, you mean?
2 Q. No, I don't -- I didn't write the question, but
3 I believe it's probably intended to ask if in general you
4 are in possession of that evidence, not necessarily do you
5 have it with you today?
6 A. Like the things that are in this book, is that
7 what they're asking, or what?
8 Q. Or any other documented evidence related to the
9 testimony that you've given today.
10 A. What do you mean by in possession of? I mean, I
11 have files in my office that would have copies of things
12 related to WYR or Fremont 38, yeah.
13 Q. Okay. Have you provided those documents to the
14 committee and to the superintendent?
15 A. Ibelieveso.
16 Q. Please describe your relationship with Mary Kay
17 Hill.
18 A. Mary Kay Hill, I met her for the first time I
19 went to work for the Department. I believe that -- I
20 mean, literally I met her and said, "Nice to meet you." I
21 think that's the only conversation I've ever had -- I've
22 ever had with her while she still worked at the
23 Department. I've seen her on a couple of occasions. I'm
24 trying to think where. One was the potluck lunch at the
25 Hathaway Building where the governor came over and she
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 93
1 came over. I believe I saw her once in the Herschler
2 Building and said hello to her. Aside from that -- well,
3 that is my relationship with her. I've just described it.
4 Q. When was the last time you spoke to her?
5 A. I think it was at that -- oh, it -- at that
6 potluck lunch when I spoke to her. But one day it was one
7 of those really, really windy days, like the wind was
8 blowing a hundred miles an hour, and she was walking down
9 the sidewalk in front of the Hathaway Building and I was
10 walking the opposite way, and we saw each other and we
11 just laughed because it was -- the wind was so outrageous.
12 So that literally would be the last time I spoke to her.
13 Q. Had you discussed this process with Mary Kay
14 Hill?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you consider yourself to be a close friend to
17 Mary Kay Hill?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you discuss Senate File 104 with Mary Kay
20 Hill?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Please describe your relationship with
23 Joe Simpson.
24 A. Joe Simpson, my relationship with him? Well, I
25 wouldn't really say we have a relationship. I've met him
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 94
1 a couple of times. He was -- he and Cathy MacPherson
2 interviewed me for the inquiry report. That was the last
3 time I spoke to him. And probably -- I mean, I could
4 literally count on one hand the number of times I've ever
5 even talked to Joe Simpson. But I met him once at the
6 first school improvement conference that we -- I attended
7 after I became an employee of the Department, I mean,
8 literally like met him. And I think other than that and
9 that interview with the -- the -- the inquiry interview,
10 probably the only times I've ever really talked to him or
11 been involved with him.
12 Q. How long have you known him?
13 A. Well, I mean, when I worked as an education
14 director at Attention Homes, we had a meeting with Joe
15 Simpson and Jim McBride, but I mean, he was the deputy
16 superintendent for a long time, so in that capacity I've
17 known him or known who he is, but it's not like -- I mean,
18 we don't have what I would call a personal relationship.
19 Q. When was the last time that you spoke to
20 Mr. Simpson?
21 A. At -- I believe it was at the -- when he
22 interviewed me for that inquiry report.
23 Q. Have you discussed this process with
24 Mr. Simpson?
25 A. Well, only to the extent that I, you know, told
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 95
1 everything -- pretty much everything that I knew. And
2 some of it was what I've told you here today, when -- when
3 he interviewed me for the inquiry, yeah.
4 Q. Do you consider yourself to be a close friend to
5 Joe Simpson?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you discuss Senate File 104 with Joe
8 Simpson?
9 A. No.
10 Q. We're going to do this with a number of
11 employees.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Just so you're ready. I'm sorry, of
14 individuals.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Please describe your relationship with
17 Tanya Hytrek, H-y-t-r-e-k.
18 A. Okay. So what I would tell you about Tanya is I
19 met her once, like introduction when I first came to work
20 here, that's the only time I've ever spoken to her.
21 That's the only interaction I've had. That was the first
22 and last interaction I've ever had. I don't have a close
23 relation with her, and --
24 Q. Doyouknow--
25 A. Haven't discussed anything with her.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 96
1 Q. And how long have you known Miss Hytrek?
2 A. I met her when I first came to work at the
3 Department three years ago.
4 Q. I just want to make sure these are asked.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Have you discussed this process with Ms. Hytrek?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did -- do you consider yourself to be a close
9 friend to Miss Hytrek?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you discuss Senate File 104 with
12 Miss Hytrek?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Please describe your relationship with
15 Karen Kelley.
16 A. Karen was the human resources director when I
17 first came to work at the Department. We were coworkers.
18 That's the extent of our relationship.
19 Q. How long have you known Karen Kelley?
20 A. Forthreeyears.
21 Q. When was the last time you spoke to
22 Karen Kelley?
23 A. Thismorning.
24 Q. Have you discussed this process with
25 Karen Kelley?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 97
1 A. Other than just this morning, you know, I --
2 I -- I'm up first, you know when you're going, that's it.
3 Q. Do you consider yourself to be a close friend to
4 Karen Kelley?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you discuss Senate File 104 with
7 Karen Kelley?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Please describe your relationship with
10 Dianne Bailey.
11 A. Dianne is the director of the finance division
12 at the Department of Education. She worked at the
13 Department for a while, and then she quit and was gone for
14 a long time, then she just -- she's come back now as the
15 director of finance. She's a coworker.
16 Q. How long have you known Ms. Bailey?
17 A. I knew Dianne before coming to work at the
18 Department, because I worked with her around some
19 financial things related to Attention Homes, so I've known
20 her for many -- I don't know, many years.
21 Q. When was the last time you spoke to Ms. Bailey?
22 A. Gosh, you know, I said hi to her on the first
23 floor of the Hathaway Building maybe a couple weeks ago.
24 That was probably it.
25 Q. Have you discussed this process with Ms. Bailey?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 98
1 A. This process meaning the investigation? Is --
2 you don't know --
3 Q. Idon'tknow.
4 A. --whatthatmeans?
5 Well, Rich Crandall, the director of the
6 Department of Education, received a subpoena from one of
7 these -- one of these committees to -- for information
8 related to I think it was Fremont 38 and WYR, and Dianne
9 contacted me and asked me if I knew about certain things,
10 and I directed her toward some documents like the MOU and
11 things like that. And so in that sense, I collaborated
12 with her on providing documents to this committee from the
13 Department.
14 Q. Do you consider yourself to be a close friend to
15 Dianne Bailey?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you discuss Senate File 104 with Dianne
18 Bailey?
19 A. No. I think -- she wasn't even at the
20 Department at that time.
21 Q. Please describe your relationship with Roger
22 Clark.
23 A. Roger was a colleague that was one of the
24 initial members of Cindy's leadership team.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, can I interject?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 99
1 Committee, it's up to you, if you want to go
2 through all of these questions with all of these people.
3 I'm certainly willing to indulge if it moves us toward
4 further legislative action or is relevant. Any two of you
5 can make sure that all of these questions are asked, but as
6 I look at the thought process of the committee, by their
7 body language, I thought I better ask.
8 Representative Davison.
9 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: I would like to
10 hear all the questions.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. All right. And
12 representative -- okay. We'll go through them all, then.
13 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Go ahead.
15 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) How long have you known Roger
16 Clark?
17 A. I knew Roger also before coming to the
18 Department. When Trent Blankenship was the
19 superintendent, I went on -- and I was working at
20 Attention Homes, I went on a trip to Boston with a group
21 from the Department of Education and some other folks, and
22 so that was I would say maybe 10 years ago. So I think
23 that's where I first met him.
24 Q. When was the last time you spoke to Mr. Clark?
25 A. I spoke to him this morning when we took a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 100
1 break.
2 Q. Have you discussed this process with Mr. Clark?
3 A. I did talk to him about it this morning in terms
4 of when he was going to be asked to testify, that kind of
5 thing.
6 Q. Do you consider yourself to be a close friend to
7 Mr. Clark?
8 A. Depends on how you say close. I would say -- I
9 mean, we definitely were colleagues, and I would consider
10 Roger a friend, but I haven't seen or spoken to Roger for
11 probably, I don't know, two or three months, so I
12 wouldn't -- I wouldn't necessarily say close friend.
13 Q. Did you discuss Senate File 104 with Mr. Clark?
14 A. We have spoken about it at different times over
15 the course of the last year, couple years, whatever.
16 Q. When did you first become aware of the efforts
17 to remove the superintendent as head of the Wyoming
18 Department of Education?
19 A. When did I -- give me a second to think about
20 that. Let me think. Of efforts to remove her?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Well, I think it would have been during the last
23 legislative session, and I heard -- I had heard from
24 somebody that attended a meeting that -- efforts to remove
25 her. Hmm. Well, I had heard that there had been a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 101
1 meeting where they had talked about removing some of her
2 duties or limiting her duties, but -- but specifically I
3 get -- it's hard for me to say, it was during the
4 legislative session, might have even -- I might have read
5 it in the paper.
6 Q. At any time when you worked at the Wyoming
7 Department of Education, did you keep secret records such
8 as notebooks, journals, pictures, et cetera?
9 A. I kept notebooks, journals -- I mean, pictures
10 like -- I took that picture and I sent it to the -- some
11 legislators. I don't have like a secret file of stuff. I
12 mean, I documented stuff and kept notes definitely, yes, I
13 did.
14 Q. Whydidyoudothis?
15 A. Because -- well, because I saw rules that were
16 being broken, and I saw people's -- people were not
17 treated -- in my opinion, they were not treated properly,
18 and I had a -- a suspicion some time ago that perhaps this
19 might come back around, that there might be audits, there
20 might be people, you know, filing complaints and things,
21 but I just wanted to have documentation of what happened
22 and what I knew happened.
23 Q. This is another follow-up question with respect
24 to keeping records such as notebooks, journals, pictures,
25 et cetera. Who encouraged you to do this?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 102
1 A. Nobody. It was my own original idea.
2 Q. After Superintendent Hill's removal from office,
3 was there any change in your position, duties,
4 responsibilities or compensation?
5 A. After she was removed from office?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. No. Not -- what -- I don't believe so, no. My
8 job hasn't changed.
9 Q. Please describe why you decided to participate
10 in the MacPherson committee investigation.
11 A. Because, as I said before, I -- I felt that
12 under Cindy's administration, under her leadership, there
13 had been a culture of secrecy, intimidation and fear, and
14 I felt that it was important that -- I felt that it was
15 important that I speak to what I had experienced, what I
16 had observed, what I knew to be true.
17 Q. That was your motive for participating in the
18 MacPherson committee investigation?
19 A. I wanted -- I wanted to have an opportunity to
20 tell the truth. I wanted people to have an opportunity to
21 hear firsthand, you know, what had happened, or what --
22 you know, things that I knew had happened.
23 Q. When did you participate in the MacPherson
24 committee investigation?
25 A. Gosh, you know, I should have brought my
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 103
1 journals. Whenever it was that they were interviewing
2 people. I don't remember off the top of my head exactly
3 the timeline.
4 Q. The next question is why did you participate in
5 the MacPherson committee investigation? Have you already
6 answered that?
7 A. Uh-huh, because I wanted to, yeah.
8 Q. How did you participate in the MacPherson
9 investigation?
10 A. I was interviewed by Cathy MacPherson and Joe
11 Simpson and Norm -- I forget Norm's last name, but yeah.
12 Q. When deciding which documents or evidence should
13 be provided to the MacPherson committee, were you given
14 instructions of what to provide?
15 A. Notatall,no. No.
16 Q. What was your standard for deciding what to
17 provide?
18 A. I provided what I thought might be relevant to
19 this investigation or to that inquiry at the time.
20 Q. Had you reviewed the report that came out of the
21 MacPherson investigation and read it in its entirety?
22 A. No, I don't -- no, I didn't read it in its
23 entirety. I've looked at it, sections of it, yeah.
24 Q. Do statements attributed to you in the
25 MacPherson report accurately reflect your testimony to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 104
1 that committee?
2 A. There were a couple of little inaccuracies that,
3 when I read it, I could see that they didn't get it quite
4 right, but -- but they were -- they were, in my opinion,
5 small inaccuracies. And in general, what I read, I
6 believe, probably fairly accurately represented, you know,
7 what I -- what I told them. It wasn't word for word.
8 Some of it was summarized, and there were a couple of
9 things that were just -- they didn't quite understand the
10 way I said it, but for the most part, it was accurate,
11 yes.
12 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, the questions
13 submitted by Superintendent Hill ask that I provide a copy
14 of the MacPherson report to the witness, who can then -- is
15 then asked to describe what modifications or corrections
16 need to be made. How would you like me to proceed? May I
17 just ask the witness if there are any modifications or
18 corrections that the witness would like to make right now?
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Sure.
20 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker.
21 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) Ms. Eisenhauer, are there any
22 modifications or corrections to your statements in the
23 MacPherson report that you believe need to be made?
24 A. You know, to be fair -- I mean, to be honest, I
25 would rather see a copy of the report, because I certainly
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 105
1 don't want to perjure myself or make a mistake that would
2 potentially come back to haunt me. So, you know, if I
3 could see a copy of the report, I could respond to that
4 better. I don't want to leave something out that might be
5 a little inaccurate and -- you know what I mean? I want
6 to be accurate on this.
7 MR.JAROSH: Mr.Speaker.
8 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Goahead,Counsel.
9 MR.JAROSH: Howwouldyoulikeusto
10 proceed at this point?
11 SPEAKERLUBNAU: I'mthinkingaboutit.
12 Committee, my thought is that whether the
13 MacPherson report is accurate or not, we've heard the live
14 testimony of the witness here today and had an opportunity
15 to judge and listen to that testimony. I don't think it
16 furthers our purpose to have her look through the
17 MacPherson report and detail inaccuracies when we've had
18 the opportunity to hear live testimony.
19 Any two of you can require her to go through and
20 do that. If you want to do that, please let me know. Are
21 there any two of you that want her to go through the
22 MacPherson report and -- Representative Davison.
23 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: Mr. Chairman, I'm
24 curious that if that -- if what's in the report is
25 inaccurate, then I would wonder why. So I guess I would
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 106
1 like to see her -- or see how she answers that.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Well, she answered earlier
3 that there were inaccuracies in general -- that small
4 inaccuracies where it didn't look like they got it. But
5 that by and large, generally, it was correct.
6 Isn't that a correct summary of your statement or
7 your testimony, Ms. Eisenhauer?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: So I guess that's what
10 Representative Davison wants.
11 Is there anybody else?
12 Representative Throne.
13 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Thank you,
14 Mr. Chairman.
15 Mr. Speaker, in the interest of time, would it be
16 feasible for her to -- for Ms. Eisenhauer to submit a
17 written statement later describing those -- I mean, maybe
18 it's faster just to look at the report, I don't know, but I
19 think we have a lot of witnesses to cover, and anything
20 that can streamline the process in a way that answers the
21 committee's questions is what I'm looking for.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Well, without objection --
23 without objection, that's what I'll order is that,
24 Ms. Eisenhauer, you look at your section of the report, and
25 if there are any inaccuracies, you would detail that for
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 107
1 the committee.
2 Mr. Jarosh.
3 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, if I might just
4 suggest so that the corrections have the same force and
5 effect as testimony, that every witness be given the
6 opportunity to do that because it's a general question
7 that's being asked, and instead of submitting a statement,
8 and I think this is what you mean, that they submit an
9 affidavit under oath.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: That's what I mean. Thank
11 you for making clear what I meant.
12 MR. JAROSH: Thank you.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right.
14 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, there are a few
15 more questions.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Please continue.
17 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) Miss Eisenhauer, while you were
18 employed at the Wyoming Department of Education, did you
19 have any communications with the governor or his staff?
20 A. When -- after the superintendent and her staff
21 were relocated to the Barrett Building, there were Kari
22 Jo, his chief of staff, and there were some people from
23 the governor's office that came and met with us and we had
24 regular meetings. And the governor came through one day
25 and walked around and shook everybody's hand, that was
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 108
1 shortly after that. Aside from that, I have some friends,
2 I guess you would call them, former colleagues, friends,
3 whatever, that work in the governor's office, but -- Rob,
4 would you repeat it? Was there a time -- was there a time
5 frame --
6 Q. No,thequestion--
7 A. Have I ever had any contact with anybody in the
8 governor's office?
9 Q. While you were employed at the Department of
10 Education.
11 A. I called the governor's office one time because
12 I needed to get a copy of something relating to one of the
13 commissions that I was on, and I spoke to -- oh, gosh, I'm
14 sorry, a woman that used to work in the Department, and
15 that was then an administrative assistant of the
16 governor's office, I can't remember her name, but anyway,
17 just happened to speak with her. But -- and I did call
18 Kari Jo after the, you know, things had kind of settled
19 down and expressed my appreciation for the support that
20 the governor's office had shown to the employees at the
21 Department of Education. Other than that, I don't think
22 I've had any contact with the governor or anyone in his
23 office.
24 Q. Just so that the record's clear, I've asked you
25 all the questions submitted by Superintendent Hill under
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 109
1 the heading "Basic Witness Questions To Be Asked of All
2 Witnesses." Now I'm going to turn to -- these are the
3 questions that were submitted prior to the beginning of
4 the hearing. They're full -- four questions that
5 Superintendent Hill has listed for you, specifically for
6 you.
7 The first one, when you joined Superintendent
8 Hill as part of the leadership team in January of 2011,
9 did you know that you were taking an at-will position?
10 A. There was no discussion of the at-will issue at
11 that time. I -- yeah, I didn't know what an at-will
12 position was, and I don't think she did either, but no.
13 Q. Did you work with Karen Kelley to have the
14 position classified as permanent position rather than at
15 will, notwithstanding the agreement you had made with
16 Superintendent Hill?
17 A. I do not ever recollect making an agreement with
18 Superintendent Hill, and I worked with Kelley -- or
19 Karen Kelley in the same sense that any new employee would
20 work with Karen Kelley as the HR director.
21 Q. Did you complain about -- I believe this should
22 say employee. Did you complain about an employee asking
23 you where is she while she was supposed to be on site
24 working with schools?
25 A. I complained about repeated text messages that I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 110
1 got from a certain -- that I would get frequently from a
2 certain employee every time I left town, that -- where
3 this person was inquiring as to my whereabouts, where are
4 you, what are you doing, when are you coming back, and
5 it -- it became -- this person did not supervise me,
6 didn't have anything -- it began to feel as though I was
7 being watched -- I was being harassed, and that was what I
8 complained about.
9 Q. Okay. Now, without mentioning any names, did
10 you make HR allegations related to other Wyoming
11 Department of Education employees?
12 A. HR allegations. That's a broad term. I mean, I
13 don't -- I don't know -- you know, I'm -- if I hesitate,
14 it's just because I -- you know, I want to be honest, but
15 that's a very broad -- I don't know exactly what that
16 means. I guess I need clarification on what HR
17 allegations mean.
18 The only formal complaint I ever filed was the
19 one that I described. I did file a grievance at one point
20 asserting -- asserting that I felt I was being --
21 experiencing retaliation from members of Cindy's
22 leadership team relating to -- it was related to the
23 complaint and things that I experienced after I refused to
24 sign the at-will letter. Other than that, those are --
25 that's the only formal action I've ever taken while I was
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 111
1 at the Department.
2 Q. When asked, did you cooperate in the
3 investigation of those employees?
4 A. I'msorry?
5 Q. The question is: When asked, did you cooperate
6 in the investigation of those employees? I assume who you
7 made a complaint or a grievance about. If there was an
8 investigation.
9 A. DidIcooperate?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yeah, yeah, I guess. I mean, I wasn't really
12 involved in the investigation. They talked to other
13 people, but I'm -- if I would have been involved, I would
14 have cooperated, so...
15 MR.JAROSH: Mr.Speaker,thoseareallof
16 the preliminary questions that were submitted by
17 Superintendent Hill. I was given a copy of the
18 questions -- an e-mail from Superintendent Hill, Subject:
19 Gail Eisenhauer additional questions as stating these are
20 the questions to be asked after the hearing testimony, but
21 if I understood you correctly earlier, the -- your
22 preference would be the procedure we're going to follow is
23 the committee members now to ask questions and then these
24 follow-up questions to be asked.
25 SPEAKERLUBNAU: That'scorrect,andI'll
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 112
1 ask the follow-up questions.
2 MR. JAROSH: Thank you. That's all I have,
3 then.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any questions from the
5 committee for Miss Eisenhauer?
6 Ms. Davison.
7 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: Thank you,
8 Mr. Chairman. I have several. I can probably speak loud
9 enough for everybody.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: It's being broadcast over
11 the Internet, Representative Davison, so...
12 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: Okay. The first
13 question I have, all this time you were working you were on
14 probation; is that correct? Or did you ever copy --
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative, if you'd
16 run the questions through the chair.
17 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: I'm sorry.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: So we don't --
19 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
20 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON) Mr. Chair, I'm
21 wondering if all this time all these things were going on
22 Gail was on probation.
23 A. My probationary period ended after the first
24 year of my employment. I've been a permanent employee for
25 the last two.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 113
1 Q. Mr. Chairman, next question I had is did -- does
2 she feel Superintendent Hill had the right to improvise a
3 program like that without everybody's considering it was
4 or wasn't good. I mean, as -- as her position, didn't she
5 have the right to institute a new program?
6 A. Mr. Chairman. I believed and I continue to
7 believe that as superintendent, she had the right to make
8 any decision that she chose to make.
9 Q. Mr. Chairman, does she have any idea how many
10 children were touched by that program in Fremont 38?
11 A. Mr. Chairman. It would be difficult for me to
12 give you an accurate number off the top of my head. I
13 know that -- that myself and the WDE staff that I
14 supervised worked with a total of 12 children.
15 Q. Thankyou.
16 Mr. Chairman. When we're talking about the
17 funds, the federal funds and all of that, wasn't there an
18 audit performed to show that that was -- the funds had
19 been spent wisely or correctly or why are we worrying
20 about that if there was an audit?
21 A. Mr. Chairman. I'm not a member of the finance
22 division. I -- I really don't feel like I'm qualified to
23 answer that.
24 Q. Okay. Mr. Chairman, the last question I have is
25 when she was talking about the no contracts, but the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 114
1 people were working, the people were getting paid so there
2 must have been something in place.
3 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Ms.Eisenhauer,youcan
4 answer if you want.
5 A. Mr. Chairman. It's my belief that the people
6 were not getting paid until those contracts were
7 finalized. There was a long period of delay that caused
8 hardship in many cases for some of those people, because
9 they weren't being paid.
10 REPRESENTATIVEDAVISON: Thankyou,
11 Mr. Chairman. That's all I have.
12 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Otherquestions?
13 Representative Zwonitzer.
14 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Mr. Chairman, a
15 couple.
16 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) First,
17 Mr. Chairman, in the exhibit there's an e-mail -- when
18 Peg Brown-Clark e-mailed back, she had a copy of the
19 e-mail that John Masters sent you. I guess my question
20 is, did you forward that on to Peg Brown Clark or did you
21 have to get ahold of -- e-mail Masters to send it?
22 A. Mr. Chairman. When I e-mailed Cindy Hill, John
23 Masters, Megan Meisen, and Michael Harris, Michael was my
24 direct supervisor. When John Masters replied to that
25 e-mail, he, I believe, hit Reply All, and you can see on
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 115
1 the header that on John's e-mail that it went back to
2 Michael Harris, who was in the Riverton office where Peg
3 was located. I never spoke to Peg about what had happened
4 or anything that transpired that day. I guess I -- I --
5 when I saw Peg's e-mail -- in fact, I didn't even know
6 about Peg's e-mail until I heard a voicemail from John
7 Masters, but I just assumed Michael Harris had informed
8 her of that. I didn't.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
10 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Mr. Chairman.
11 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Ms. Eisenhauer,
12 you talked a lot about the leadership team. I was just
13 wondering if you could give me an idea of who the
14 leadership team was in your mind, also being you were on
15 the transition, if you felt you were part of the
16 leadership team at first or if you never felt you were
17 part of the leadership team.
18 A. Mr. Chairman. I did feel I was part of the
19 leadership team in the beginning. When I elected to move
20 from the position of state system support into special
21 programs, at that time I -- I did so -- part of the reason
22 I did so was that I wanted to separate myself from that
23 leadership team. And so when I speak about things that
24 happened by members of her leadership team, either --
25 either after I was no longer a part of it, or -- or even
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 116
1 possibly prior to that, I'm talking about Kevin Lewis,
2 Sheryl Lain, Christine Steele, John Masters and
3 Superintendent Hill.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
5 REPRESENTATIVEZWONITZER: CanIhavea
6 follow-up?
7 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) You just
8 testified you didn't feel like you wanted to be part of
9 the leadership team or you purposely removed yourself.
10 Why, I guess would be my question. What drove you to that
11 decision you didn't want to be part of the leadership
12 team?
13 A. Mr. Chairman. Well, in addition to what I've
14 already testified to, that I wasn't comfortable in that
15 supervisor's position, I wanted to not be part of the
16 leadership team because I felt I was being targeted by
17 some members of that leadership team, not Superintendent
18 Hill herself, but by Sheryl Lain, Christine Steele and
19 Kevin Lewis. I did not want to be -- I didn't like the
20 way people were being treated at the Department and did
21 not want to be associated with that -- that kind of
22 leadership. And I just, you know, I just as a human
23 being, I think ethically, felt that it wasn't congruent
24 with my sense of what is right and what is wrong.
25 REPRESENTATIVEZWONITZER: General
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 117
1 question, Mr. Chairman. Will there be an opportunity for
2 Ms. Eisenhauer at the end to talk about anything that we
3 didn't include in our questioning that she may want to tell
4 this committee or do I need a specific question towards her
5 to ask her to divulge that?
6 My general question, Mr. Chairman, would be to
7 Ms. Eisenhauer, is there anything that you weren't asked
8 about today that you would like to tell this committee
9 while you're appearing before us? I'm not sure now is the
10 appropriate time or at the end if she's provided that
11 opportunity.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ms. Eisenhauer, if we
13 could have a minute before I allow you to answer that
14 question. We've worked very, very hard and have a very
15 aggressive time schedule to focus issues on particular
16 matters that we believe may merit further legislative
17 action. And the subcommittees have pared those issues down
18 to just those that counsel inquired about.
19 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Okay.
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I'm afraid that a general
21 question like that opens the door to lots of things that
22 we've decided don't rise to the level of further
23 legislative action at the subcommittee level, and so would
24 ask you to reconsider that question if you wanted to.
25 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Removed.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 118
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any other questions?
2 Representative Patton and then Representative Madden.
3 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PATTON) Mr. Chairman, I do
4 understand that Gail is here by virtue of being
5 subpoenaed, but my question is would she not have been
6 willing to appear before the committee voluntarily?
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ms. Eisenhauer.
8 A. Mr. Chairman. The question is if I hadn't been
9 subpoenaed, would I have chosen to appear before this
10 committee voluntarily?
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: That's correct.
12 A. Hmm, hmm. I guess that's kind of hard for me to
13 say. I'm happy to answer any questions this committee has
14 of me, and I'm happy to answer them honestly. If I hadn't
15 been subpoenaed, I would have been willing to appear, but
16 I don't know that I would have done it of my own volition.
17 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Follow-up? One of
18 the purposes of my question is to find out is there --
19 excuse me. One of my purposes in trying to find out is
20 there a legal status differential from being a volunteer in
21 witnessing from the standpoint of threats of perjury, which
22 was recently just asked, or not?
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Well, I don't think that's
24 a question for Ms. Eisenhauer.
25 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: No, it's not.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 119
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: There's a whole flock of
2 lawyers in the room, and they would tell you that if you're
3 under oath, it's perjury, if you volunteer or not.
4 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Volunteer or not.
5 Thank you.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Is that all,
7 Representative Patton?
8 Representative Madden.
9 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Thank you,
10 Mr. Chairman.
11 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) I have a couple of
12 questions related to the budgeting and the financing. If
13 you don't feel comfortable answering them, you know,
14 there's probably going to be other witnesses, if and when
15 we get to them.
16 But I'm looking at some -- a transmittal that
17 you provided to this committee earlier that refers to a
18 budget 6117, an agency budget number of 6117. It's a COPS
19 budget. And you allude to the fact that -- that you're
20 confident that this budget was used to finance some of the
21 expenses involved with -- with Fremont 38. Is that -- is
22 there anything you can say to expand on that?
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ms. Eisenhauer.
24 A. Mr. Chairman. Could I see a copy of the e-mail
25 so I'm sure I'm speaking -- no?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 120
1 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) Well --
2 A. I mean, I just want to be sure I'm answering the
3 right question.
4 Q. It's -- Mr. Speaker -- it's a report that was
5 given to us by our -- our counsel here, that they learned
6 that in talking to you, and you referred -- you say that
7 the 6117 COPS budget was supposed to be for court-ordered
8 placements, which I'm aware it is. But the budget was
9 used to pay salaries of people who had nothing to do with
10 the program. And I just wanted to make sure that was --
11 that I understood that.
12 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Ms.Eisenhauer.
13 A. Mr.Speaker.
14 I believe that I did talk about that in the
15 inquiry report. That was -- they asked me what my major
16 concerns were, and that was one of the things, and it --
17 it isn't related -- I don't think that it's related to the
18 purpose of this investigation. However, I will say that
19 the COPS budget 6117, there are several salaries at the
20 Department, people who are paid -- whose salaries are paid
21 from that budget that work in federal programs or other --
22 other divisions that really don't have any -- don't
23 provide any kind of direct service to COPS. And from
24 talking to some of the folks from institutional schools
25 and stuff, they -- they were not aware of any kind of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 121
1 services that were being provided to them related to that
2 budget.
3 That's--myconcernwasmoreofan
4 administrative thing. It was my understanding that that
5 budget went broke kind of last year, and that they had
6 used up all the money in it, and so my -- the concern that
7 I was raising is that I believe the legislature intended
8 money to be provided for the purpose of -- of improving
9 education for students who were placed by court order, and
10 it was my feeling from what I learned when I came to the
11 Department that that money was being used for a variety of
12 other kinds of services not related to those students.
13 Does that answer your question?
14 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) It does. Thanks.
15 And then -- Mr. Speaker -- another question I
16 have. I have here a requisition form -- or requisition
17 forms from the consultants that were involved in the
18 Fremont 38. Now, I assume a requisition form is kind of
19 like a means of finance type thing when you have a
20 contract and how you're going to pay for it. And one of
21 them is an example of the three that were hired in
22 relation to the Fremont 38, was going to be paid one-third
23 of her cost was on 6105, one-third was on 6106, and
24 one-third was on 6108. So I went to the budget book, and
25 find out that 6105 is assessment; 6106 is teacher and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 122
1 leader quality, I think is some kind of federal fund; and
2 the 6108 is accreditation.
3 I guess my question, Mr. Speaker, is this an
4 orthodox way of -- means of finance of a -- of an
5 individual -- in this case it was Ms. Lesher, and you have
6 some idea of what she was doing, what her responsibilities
7 were for this contract. But is that a logical -- or is
8 it -- is there some orthodox aspect to this that you would
9 take money from assessment, teacher/leader quality and
10 accreditation to pay for that kind of work?
11 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Ms.Eisenhauer.
12 A. Mr. Chairman. Again, I would say that I don't
13 really feel I'm qualified to answer that.
14 REPRESENTATIVEMADDEN: That'sfineif
15 you're not. We'll have other witnesses later that can.
16 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Otherquestions?
17 Representative Moniz.
18 REPRESENTATIVEMONIZ: Thankyou,
19 Mr. Chairman.
20 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MONIZ) In reference to
21 Exhibit 6, page 8, Ms. Eisenhauer said she did not
22 authorize Christine Steele to sign this contract. But
23 yet on page 9, top of it says Wyoming Department of
24 Education monitoring agent is Gail Eisenhauer. I was
25 curious if Ms. Eisenhauer thought this was a valid
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 123
1 contract where she's -- she's managing supervisor, but you
2 didn't even authorize the signature for that contract, do
3 you feel this is a valid contract?
4 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Ms.Eisenhauer.
5 A. Mr. Chairman. If you look at -- I believe this
6 is -- this is what Representative Moniz is referencing.
7 It says, "Attachment to Professional Services Contract."
8 I drafted -- this is what we call an action plan. I
9 drafted that on July 29th, 2011, in anticipation of
10 contracts, and as I -- I stated previously, this was a
11 very long and protracted process for these contracts
12 because things kept changing, decisions were, you know,
13 being made kind of on the fly.
14 So my name is on there because at the time that
15 I drafted this, I guess it was my belief that I would be
16 supervising Ms. Lesher as well as Jane Brutsman and Joan
17 Brummond. However, by the time the contracts were signed
18 at the end of September, I had kind of made a decision
19 that I would be moving on, so I -- I didn't want to sign
20 that contract -- let me look at the date that it was
21 signed. On the 20th or 21st of September, when Christine
22 signed my name to it, at that time I wasn't willing to
23 sign it when I drafted the action plan for it in July.
24 That -- I hope that explains why my name was on it.
25 REPRESENTATIVEMONIZ: Follow-up,
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1 Mr. Speaker.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Certainly.
3 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MONIZ) Are you aware of any
4 other documents or contracts that -- that Christine Steele
5 signed on your behalf?
6 A. Mr. Chairman.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ms. Eisenhauer.
8 A. I'm not aware of any other documents or
9 contracts that Christine Steele signed on my behalf, but I
10 will say that while I was looking at the contracts section
11 and looking at various documents, I did become aware of a
12 bid waiver, or it possibly was multiple bid waivers that
13 went to the Attorney General's Office after I had been
14 sent to Arapahoe that were sent to the Attorney General's
15 Office under my name. They were not initialed, but I had
16 not authorized those and had no knowledge of those. And I
17 believe that I was informed that it was Kevin Lewis who
18 had used my name to submit those bid waivers. And that
19 bothered me.
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Other questions?
21 Representative Greear.
22 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Yeah, Mr. Chairman.
23 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Ms. Eisenhauer,
24 just -- I was just curious, what are the general duties of
25 a state -- of a coach on a statewide system of support?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 125
1 What do they do?
2 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Ms.Eisenhauer.
3 A. Mr. Chairman. I would say they -- they work
4 with -- at the district level, they work with districts --
5 district personnel, sometimes school boards, coaching the
6 district toward helping them establish and maintain
7 systems that support and improve student achievement. For
8 example, they might help them develop their -- the
9 district develop their strategic plan or, you know, school
10 improvement plans within the district. They might be
11 helping them coaching them toward development of a
12 response to intervention system within the district. They
13 might be helping them or coaching them around district
14 data analysis and how to use that for school improvements.
15 So it's really individualized in terms of what
16 the -- what that particular district needs, but it's
17 around -- and again, it's around those systems that have
18 been proven to be most effective in improving student
19 achievement.
20 REPRESENTATIVEGREEAR: Mr.Speaker.
21 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Then -- so
22 Jane Brutsman and Joan Brummond, if I'm saying their names
23 correctly, were contracted to be coaches in the late
24 summer, early fall of 2011; is that correct?
25 A. Right. Correct.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 126
1 Q. And then -- Mr. Chairman. So with that, were
2 they primarily responsible for the WYR program at Fremont
3 38, getting it up and running, getting it moving along?
4 A. Mr. Chairman. I would say that is accurate,
5 yes.
6 Q. Mr. Chair. So then my question is: Were those
7 students -- getting Wy Read up and running, does that fall
8 within the scope of a statewide system of support coach?
9 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Ms.Eisenhauer.
10 A. Mr. Chairman. In my opinion, it does not, for
11 many reasons. One, because that initiative was really at
12 a school level, not at a district level. Section -- I
13 mentioned before, Section 1117 of -- under Title I, School
14 Improvement, really sort of defines the State's
15 responsibility for a statewide system of support. And it
16 talks about things like having a data team, you know,
17 looking -- looking at data and other kinds of activities,
18 which they did not perform those kinds of -- of duties.
19 The WYR project, as I participated in it and
20 observed it, was -- was an isolated -- it was an isolated
21 thing. It wasn't -- I didn't feel that the Department was
22 going in to build the capacity within the school or the
23 district, but rather than that -- the Department, and the
24 tutors that worked there, it was kind of a pull-out thing.
25 We worked with a number of students, but, you know, SSoS
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 127
1 is more designed for the school to build capacity within
2 the districts so that it can be sustained, and that wasn't
3 the way that it worked with the WYR project.
4 So for two very qualified reading teachers to go
5 in and -- they each had their own caseload, if you will,
6 of students that they tutored, but for them to go in and
7 function as -- as tutors themselves and also as coaching
8 support for the other tutors -- not the WDE staff tutors
9 per se, but the other tutors that were there -- in my
10 opinion, no, that was not -- that is not what SSoS was
11 supposed to be.
12 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Mr. Chairman.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Greear.
14 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) So I guess look at
15 the time frame after Labor Day, how many Department of
16 Education employees were at Fremont 38 during -- in a
17 given week? Just looking at like that month, that first
18 month, which would have been September.
19 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Ms.Eisenhauer.
20 A. Mr. Chairman. I believe we averaged -- there
21 would be -- I'm sorry, I'm just trying -- I'm going back
22 and trying to think about it. I think that there would be
23 three people -- an average of three people at any given
24 time in a week, and then that would trade off.
25 And part of the problem was that School
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1 Improvement Grants -- application for the next round of
2 School Improvement Grants were due at the end of
3 September, and the Department of Education, they had
4 tasked the SSoS district coaches with providing technical
5 assistance for schools that were interested in applying
6 for those School Improvement Grants.
7 Because the capacity had been, you know, so
8 diminished with, you know, going from eight coaches to --
9 at that time I believe that we had -- we had three coaches
10 and one brand-new coach that -- that we had just hired,
11 and then there were Jane and Joan, but when I said --
12 replied to Sheryl Lain and said we didn't have the
13 capacity to dedicate Joy Mockelmann exclusively to one
14 district for help with application for the SIG grant --
15 I'm sorry, I -- I -- I don't -- I lost my train of
16 thought. I apologize.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Greear.
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Mr. Chairman, I was
19 just trying to get a general feel for how many Department
20 of Ed employees were --
21 A. Were there -- oh, I'm sorry. And for that
22 reason I, in a sense -- Joy was dedicated exclusive -- she
23 wasn't participating in WYR, because she was helping all
24 the schools that were applying for SIG grants. So we had
25 three teams of people, I think, as I'm counting in my
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 129
1 head, that's what I'm coming up with. So there would be
2 three different people one week working, each working with
3 three or four students. And then the next week -- we each
4 had partners. The next week the other three people would
5 come up and -- at one point, when -- when the new coach
6 that we hired, Sandy Porter, once she came on, you know,
7 and just barely kind of got her feet on the ground, then
8 we had four people.
9 Q. So -- Mr. Chairman -- and I'm being terrible at
10 math, so there's three, plus Jane and Joan?
11 A. Yes.
12 REPRESENTATIVEGREEAR: Okay.
13 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Anyfurtherquestions?
14 Representative Patton.
15 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PATTON) Just want to follow
16 up that I don't think that the -- the testimony here is
17 the one to ask the question to, but if she did not
18 authorize Miss Street (sic) or Mrs. Street to sign on her
19 behalf, do we have any knowledge as to who then perhaps
20 gave such authority to or why would Mrs. Street think she
21 had the authority to sign on her behalf?
22 SPEAKERLUBNAU: DoyoumeanMissSteele,
23 Christine Steele?
24 REPRESENTATIVEPATTON: Yeah.
25 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Doyouknow?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 130
1 A. Mr. Chairman. No, I was living up in Riverton
2 at the time. I had no knowledge of it until much later.
3 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Thank you.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any further questions from
5 the committee?
6 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: Mr. Chairman.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Davison.
8 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON) I'm just curious,
9 did Christine sign other documents? Was that a common
10 practice for somebody to sign for you?
11 A. Mr. Chairman.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ms. Eisenhauer.
13 A. I'm not aware of that, no, that wasn't a common
14 practice. I've never seen that --
15 REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON: Thank you.
16 A. -- before or since.
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Superintendent Hill has
18 provided a list of questions, and I will ask those.
19 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) You stated
20 superintendent -- you stated that the superintendent did
21 not know about at will until the discipline of the
22 employee. If that is so, then why were others on
23 leadership and other new employees hired at will,
24 something that happened for all of them prior to that
25 time?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 131
1 A. Mr. Chairman, I can't answer that question. I
2 wasn't responsible for or involved in hiring of members of
3 the leadership.
4 Q. You were allowed to complete your one year --
5 you were allowed to complete your one-year probationary
6 period and became permanent; isn't that true?
7 A. Mr.Chairman,yes.
8 Q. Eventually didn't A&I classify your position?
9 This was the compromise that was agreed upon by you and
10 your counsel and the Department; is that correct?
11 A. Mr. Chairman. We -- the agreement was that we
12 would proceed with the reclassification process through
13 A&I, that is correct.
14 Q. You are assured the employee about whom you
15 complained will not be present so you would be free to
16 discuss your concerns; isn't that correct?
17 A. I'm sorry. Could you read the question again?
18 Q. Sure. You are assured the employee about whom
19 you complained will not be present so you would be free to
20 discuss your concerns; isn't that correct?
21 A. I -- Mr. Chairman, I'm assuming that that's a
22 reference to the e-mail that John Masters sent? I'm
23 sorry. I -- I just want to make sure I understand the --
24 the intent of that question. That sounds like something
25 that -- something that Mr. Masters put in his e-mail reply
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 132
1 to me.
2 Q. Were you further assured that you and your
3 counsel would not otherwise have to confront the other
4 employee; isn't that also correct?
5 A. I'm -- that me and my -- I'm sorry, could you
6 repeat the question.
7 Q. Sure. You were further assured that you and
8 your counsel would not otherwise have to confront the
9 other employee; isn't that also correct?
10 A. I -- I don't -- I can't comment -- I don't
11 recall that specifically.
12 Q. Okay. Wasn't it clear to you that your
13 cooperation in investigating the complaint would be
14 treated separately from your concerns about your employee
15 matters?
16 A. Would you repeat the first part of that
17 question.
18 Q. Yeah. If you don't understand the question,
19 just say so.
20 A. I just -- did it say was it communicated to me
21 that that was the case?
22 Q. It says wasn't it clear to you that your
23 cooperation in investigating the complaint would be
24 treated separately from your concerns about your
25 employment matters?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 133
1 A. No, that wasn't clear to me.
2 Q. Okay. Could your complaints directed to another
3 employee be investigated without your assistance?
4 A. Could my complaints against another employee be
5 investigated without my assistance?
6 Q. That'swhat--
7 A. I'm sorry, I'm just trying to think this
8 through. The question said could my complaints be
9 investigated without my --
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I guess I would -- to answer that, I would say
12 anything's possible. I suppose they could be.
13 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Committee,thenexttwo
14 questions tend to be more appropriate for executive
15 session. I'm going to rephrase one of them.
16 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Are you aware of any
17 discipline that occurred as a result of the --
18 THECOURTREPORTER: I'msorry,asthe
19 result of what?
20 SPEAKERLUBNAU: I'msorry.
21 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Are you aware of any
22 discipline that occurred as a result of the 360-degree
23 camera?
24 A. Mr. Chairman, no, I'm not.
25 SPEAKERLUBNAU: And,Kathy,areyougood
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 134
1 until noon, do you think?
2 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) All right. Are you
3 aware -- where is the copy of the WEN video, do you know?
4 A. Pardon me, the copy of what video?
5 Q. The WEN video, Wyoming --
6 A. The WEN video?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. I don't know which WEN video that question
9 refers to.
10 Q. I think it's the one about the body language
11 assessment. Do you know where a copy of that video is?
12 A. I don't -- no, I don't.
13 Q. Do you know why it was not offered to this
14 committee for its precise content rather than hearsay?
15 A. No, I don't know why.
16 Q. Okay. What were the results of Fremont 38?
17 A. The results in terms of what?
18 Q. Did the kids grow?
19 A. Mr. Chairman, I can't answer that. I spoke to
20 what I believe were invalid and unreliable pretesting
21 scores. I don't know if there were any post -- if there
22 was any post-testing done using the Jerry Johns
23 instrument. We left in mid to late October. The program
24 continued on, I believe, until March, but I wasn't
25 involved in it. I can't tell you off the top of my head
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 135
1 what the results were at Fremont 38. I don't feel that
2 I'm the person to answer that.
3 Q. Isn't it true that WYR was developed by
4 Bob Krisko?
5 A. I'msorry,WYR?
6 Q. WYR.
7 A. That's the first time I've ever heard that.
8 When we were taking the video training, Tori Lesher told
9 us -- and this was via WEN video, and it's probably
10 recorded, because I know they did at one time have
11 all those Wy Read sessions recorded and posted on the
12 website -- but Tori Lesher told us that she and Sheryl and
13 Sheryl's daughter invented WYR, that the three of them
14 did. And it's always been my understanding, around
15 Laramie, even before I came to the Department, that WYR
16 was Sheryl's baby, her -- her initiative.
17 Q. Did you use WYR at Attention Homes?
18 A. Mr. Chairman, we did. We did. We had some
19 training from -- my staff had training from Sheryl Lain in
20 implementing WYR, yes.
21 Q. Were you federally funded at Attention Homes?
22 A. Attention Homes was funded through a variety of
23 different federal funds, state funds, volunteer, you know,
24 donations, different things.
25 Q. Were they funded out of the same federal source
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 136
1 as the statewide system of support monies?
2 A. No,no,notatall.
3 Q. Superintendent Hill referred to you for your
4 professional guidance as to the proper use of federal
5 funds. Wasn't this how she typically relied on her staff
6 to answer technical questions?
7 A. Would you -- I'm sorry, would you repeat that
8 question again.
9 Q. Sure. So Superintendent Hill referred to you
10 for your professional guidance as to the proper use of
11 federal funds. Wasn't this how she typically relied on
12 her staff to answer technical questions?
13 A. Mr. Chairman, to be honest, speaking from --
14 only from my experience, I can tell you that I had a
15 conversation with Superintendent Hill over my --
16 specifically over my concerns of the use of these federal
17 funds for the WYR program. And in the course of that
18 conversation, I gave her a copy of Section 1117
19 regulations and said that this conversation was related to
20 the fact -- I was trying to get a straight answer on
21 whether or not me and my staff were going to be done at
22 Arapahoe at the end of October or was there a plan --
23 because things had continued to change. The story went
24 from us taking the training and working in -- at home
25 doing one student all the way to us living there,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 137
1 tutoring -- you know, wanting us to tutor full time.
2 So I talked to her and said, you know, these --
3 we have to do these things. I had a copy of the
4 regulations. We have to do them. It's not optional. It
5 says the state -- or the SEA shall or the SEA will. You
6 know, we need to be doing this work. And I remember --
7 she made a couple comments that I remember. She said,
8 "Well, we don't have to -- we don't have to take federal
9 money. And I can ask the legislature for $10 million."
10 She said -- and I said, "But the fact is, you
11 know, it's always kind of -- if the finance goes in
12 arrears," I said, "we are taking this money -- you know,
13 if that's what you're going to do in the future, that's
14 fine, but we're taking this money, we need to spend it as
15 we said that we would spend it."
16 And, you know, she said something to me -- she
17 said, "You know, I'm glad that you're concerned about
18 this." She said, "I'm glad that you're concerned about
19 this because you're diligent," she said, "but I'm not
20 concerned about this." She said, "I can sleep at night."
21 So to answer that question, I would say that for
22 myself, I think that there are many people within the
23 Department and -- that will tell you there were many
24 opportunities where Superintendent Hill and Sheryl Lain
25 and Christine Steele were advised that employees within
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 138
1 the Department were not comfortable with the way that some
2 federal funds were being used. And, you know, I would say
3 the feeling among the employees was that Cindy and her
4 team did not want to hear -- they didn't want to hear it
5 or it wouldn't make any difference if you raised an
6 objection or -- or offered some guidance, that -- that
7 wasn't really -- they weren't putting a lot of stock in
8 the advice they were getting from the people who worked
9 there.
10 Q. The meeting with Fremont 38 occurred in late
11 July, so your conversations with Sheryl occurred after the
12 District was asking for assistance; isn't that true?
13 A. I believe that is true, yes.
14 Q. Seems like Sheryl Lain had a thoughtful
15 conversation about how to help Fremont 38; isn't that
16 true?
17 A. I don't know what thoughtful conversation that
18 question refers to, I'm sorry.
19 Q. So wasn't the improvement in the SSoS staff an
20 ancillary benefit of the work in Fremont 38?
21 A. The improvement -- Mr. Chairman, the
22 improvement -- was the improvement of the SSoS staff an
23 ancillary benefit in Fremont 38?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. I don't understand that question.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 139
1 Q. What would be more important, a staffing crisis
2 of hiring people to work that didn't help schools or to
3 help improve the existing SSoS staff to be more effective
4 in helping schools?
5 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand that question.
6 Q. Did you and your staff live at Fremont 38 or did
7 you schedule a series of visits to work part time on their
8 professional development, i.e., WYR training and continued
9 to work on their SSoS duties?
10 A. Mr. Chairman, could you repeat that question?
11 Q. Sure. It's two questions. Did you and your
12 staff live at Fremont 38?
13 A. Mr. Chairman, my staff and I stayed at the hotel
14 in Riverton during the time that we worked at Fremont 38.
15 Q. Okay. Did you schedule a series of visits and
16 work part time on your professional development WYR
17 training and continue to work on your statewide system of
18 support duties?
19 A. Mr. Chairman, if I understand the question
20 correctly, we -- we worked part time on -- well, while we
21 were working at Fremont 38, we worked part time on the
22 Fremont 38, and then the balance of time we continued to
23 work on our SSoS/DSCT duties.
24 Q. Exhibit 4 -- I think that's the picture, let's
25 look at Exhibit 4.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 140
1 A. Mr. Chairman, it appears those are John Masters'
2 notes.
3 Q. Those are notes? I'm sorry.
4 Constitutes notes of one possible way to conduct
5 a Fremont 38 assistance as Gail wanted it implemented. In
6 your knowledge, is this how the assistance was rendered?
7 A. Mr. Chairman, these are John Masters' notes from
8 a meeting that he and I -- that he and I had together.
9 There were -- these are -- many of these things that he
10 wrote down in his notes were questions that I had and
11 wanted answers to relating to Fremont 38, also concerns
12 that I had about jumping into an initiative like this
13 without, you know, a thoughtful planning process. I
14 don't -- some of them were answered, some of them weren't.
15 I guess that's how I would respond to that.
16 Q. Okay. It says if not, then why is this exhibit
17 relevant? If not being is this how the assistance was
18 rendered.
19 A. Mr. Chairman, I would say that this exhibit is
20 relevant because it -- it shows that I -- this was just
21 one of several attempts to raise concerns and to seek
22 answers to troubling questions about -- about this
23 project, and that Mr. Masters was aware of the concerns
24 before we went into it, as were many other people.
25 Q. Now, it says meeting with Masters, Lain and
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1 Eisenhauer had not occurred. Gail had a misconception
2 about WYR intervention would occur. Why not ask Masters
3 these questions? And it says instead met with
4 superintendent to express her concerns. Superintendent
5 wanted to move forward. In fact, the project did occur
6 and was very successful; isn't that true?
7 A. Not in my opinion, no, I don't -- I mean, I
8 guess that's -- it depends on how you -- how you define
9 successful, but I don't agree with that statement. I
10 wouldn't agree with that statement.
11 Q. Weren't you ordered to Arapahoe to participate
12 in the professional development of her -- of your SSoS
13 staff?
14 A. Mr. Chairman, initially, that was my belief that
15 we were doing it just to get -- just to improve our own
16 professional capacity, that was what I was told initially,
17 yes.
18 Q. Everyone got professional development at WYR
19 through lab school-type environment; isn't that true?
20 A. Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't agree with that
21 statement. There are -- there are conditions,
22 requirements, qualifications that define a lab school, and
23 one is that it's -- it's employing research-based
24 interventions. The other is that there's a valid and
25 reliable data collection system, neither of which was true
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 142
1 at Fremont 38. I wouldn't agree with that.
2 Q. Isn't it true that paraprofessionals, including
3 your staff, were all supervised by duly licensed
4 professionals?
5 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know, because I wasn't
6 included in the initial conversations, and so I don't -- I
7 guess I -- I would -- I would take issue with that term
8 "supervised," because speaking personally in the time that
9 I was there and delivering WYR instruction, I never
10 received -- I don't believe WDE staff received coaching
11 from Brutsman and Brummond. They were devoted more to
12 just the other tutors, the other Arapahoe tutors that we
13 weren't involved in. So I guess to be perfectly honest in
14 answering that question, I think it -- wasn't it true that
15 we -- everybody was supervised by duly licensed -- and
16 again, the term "supervision," the tutors ended up after
17 about a month, or more, ended up being employed by Fremont
18 38, having to go through their application process, and
19 being employed by them, so I don't know if I would agree
20 with the term "supervised."
21 Q. All right. You stated in your opinion the work
22 at Fremont 38 was a misuse of federal funds. What
23 authority, federal or state, do you rely on to support
24 that statement?
25 A. Mr. Chairman, I stated that that was my opinion
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1 based on my interpretation of federal regulations and
2 based on conversations that I've had with other people
3 within the federal programs division of the Department
4 who -- who shared the same belief.
5 Q. How did you determine WYR didn't meet federal
6 obligations?
7 A. Mr. Chairman, I think that's a broad question.
8 I -- I -- I just -- I think that question is too broad. I
9 don't know that I can -- again, I -- I read the federal
10 regulations, I think -- I can't respond to that. It's too
11 broad.
12 Q. Okay. Isn't it true that fourth graders grew
13 40 percent in proficiency, fifth graders grew 13 percent,
14 and the sixth graders grew 31 percent, and the seventh
15 graders grew 15 percent?
16 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know that to be true.
17 Q. Isn't it consistent -- let's see, e-mail from
18 Steve Peterson to Masters saying that they wanted to
19 terminate a tutor, Masters said the tutors were the
20 District's responsibility. Isn't this consistent with all
21 drafts and discussions leading up to the MOU?
22 A. Mr. Chairman, I can't respond -- I don't feel I
23 can respond to that because I wasn't included in all
24 discussions leading up to the MOU.
25 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Masters agrees with all
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 144
1 the comments you attribute to him?
2 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know what Mr. Masters
3 would say.
4 Q. Isn't it true that the Greybull school district
5 submitted its application without any trouble prior to
6 Arapahoe's submission, even though Joy was not on site to
7 help Greybull?
8 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that I'm the
9 person to answer that question.
10 Q. With respect to the whiteboard thing, please
11 identify the other people in the room and what portions of
12 the notes listed on the board were offered by others in
13 the room.
14 A. Mr. Chairman, as I stated previously, I did not
15 attend that meeting, so I don't -- I can't speak to that.
16 Q. Who was the coworker that went into your office
17 after the meeting?
18 A. Mr. Chairman, that was Janine Cole.
19 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Thoseareallthe
20 questions we have, Ms. Eisenhauer. Thank you for spending
21 three and a half hours of -- or two and a half hours of
22 your morning with us. I'm sure this was about as fun as
23 having your gums scraped. Thank you for your
24 professionalism --
25 THEWITNESS: Thankyou.
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1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: -- and your testimony.
2 Thank you very much.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Jarosh or
5 Mr. Salzburg, do you have anybody that we can address in
6 10 minutes, or would we be better off to break for lunch?
7 MR. SALZBURG: Mr. Speaker, the next
8 witness will be Dr. Joy Mockelmann, and I'm confident it
9 will take longer than 10 minutes.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Then we will break for
11 lunch.
12 . Committee, my intent is to go as late as we
13 need to tonight to get through this, so if we're asking all
14 these questions, we're going to ask all these questions,
15 but we're going to stay until we get a good chunk of these
16 witnesses interviewed. We only have three days available
17 to do this, and we're going to get through all of the
18 witnesses. So you have a meeting; is that correct?
19 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: My meeting is at
20 12:30.
21 SPEAKER LUBNAU: The committee -- we'll be
22 in recess until 1:15.
23 (Hearing proceedings recessed
24 11:49 a.m. to 1:18 p.m.)
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We're back in order.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 146
1 Counsel, please call your next witness.
2 MR. SALZBURG: We'll call Joy Mockelmann.
3 Thank you.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ms. Mockelmann, did you
5 get the witness advisement with your subpoena that
6 explained your rights?
7 THE WITNESS: I did.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you understand it?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
11 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
12 (Witness sworn.)
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you.
14 JOYMOCKELMANN,
15 called as a witness on behalf of the Select Investigative
16 Committee, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
17 EXAMINATION
18 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Would you state your name,
19 please.
20 A. Joy Mockelmann.
21 Q. Miss Mockelmann, were you here when the
22 guidelines for your testimony were given earlier BY
23 SPEAKERLUBNAU?
24 A. I was.
25 Q. Just as a reminder, you're entitled to
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1 understand the question before you answer it, so if I ask
2 a question, if anybody asks a question you don't
3 understand, please ask us to rephrase it. We'll be happy
4 to do that.
5 A. Thankyou.
6 Q. We have a court reporter here who is taking down
7 everything that we are saying, so try not to talk over
8 each other and try to remember to answer yes or no
9 questions with a verbal response as opposed to nodding or
10 shaking your head or making some sort of guttural noise.
11 If you forget, I'll remind you.
12 How are you currently employed?
13 A. I am an independent contractor as a district
14 coach for the Wyoming Department of Education.
15 Q. Were you ever an employee of the Wyoming
16 Department of Education?
17 A. I worked for the Wyoming Department of Education
18 from September of 2006 until December of 2010.
19 Q. Do you own your own consulting company?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. And what's the name of that company?
22 A. Milestone Enterprises, Incorporated.
23 Q. Can you generally describe for the committee
24 what you do pursuant to your contract with the Department?
25 A. I work with schools that are eligible for Title
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1 I, that are considered to be low performing in that they
2 have not met adequate yearly progress for at least two
3 years.
4 Q. Okay. You've just used some jargon that I don't
5 know about the rest of the committee, but I'm certainly
6 not terribly familiar with some of those terms. But first
7 let's talk about your position. Did you say you're a
8 coach?
9 A. Iamadistrictcoach.
10 Q. And tell us first what a coach is.
11 A. A coach works with the leadership of the
12 district to help fulfill the federal requirements. Title
13 I specific is what I work with, but other coaches help
14 with any federal and state requirements that a school
15 is -- is having struggles with, we provide technical
16 assistance.
17 Q. What's your educational background?
18 A. I am a -- have my Bachelor's of Science in
19 elementary and -- in K-12 education. I served as a
20 teacher, and then I got my master's in educational
21 leadership and served as a principal. And then I got my
22 doctorate in educational leadership, supervision of
23 instruction, and research.
24 Q. DidyoutakeanEdDoraPhD?
25 A. IdidaPhD.
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1 Q. Did you write a dissertation?
2 A. I wrote a dissertation.
3 Q. What was the subject matter of your
4 dissertation?
5 A. My dissertation was on whether or not Title I
6 specifically was meeting the intent of the original law,
7 so I -- I wrote on Title I.
8 Q. Okay. Can you summarize briefly your employment
9 history since you graduated with your bachelor's degree?
10 A. I served as a teacher from 1976 until 2000 --
11 no, I'm sorry. 1976 to 1994. And then I went to southern
12 Mississippi to get my degree in the summers, and so I
13 served as a principal in 1995 to '96. And then I became a
14 superintendent of schools in 1976 and did that until 2006.
15 Q. Yousaid'76.
16 A. I'm sorry, 1996 -- 1996 until 2006.
17 Q. Okay. And you -- when did you go to work for
18 the Wyoming Department of Education?
19 A. I'm sorry, I forgot that part. So after having
20 served as a superintendent, then I moved to Cheyenne and
21 worked -- began work with the Department of Education as a
22 school improvement technical assistant team member. And
23 about three months after coming to the Department, I was
24 assigned to be the supervisor of the statewide system of
25 support and to help fill that to meet the No Child Left
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 150
1 Behind regulations.
2 Q. Okay. And I think you said that you were
3 employed with the Department until 2010, correct?
4 A. Yes,sir.
5 Q. December of 2010 was just after Superintendent
6 Hill was elected but before she took office. Is that
7 accurate?
8 A. Yes,sir.
9 Q. Was her election part of the reason for your
10 leaving the Department?
11 A. Part of the reason. I was supportive of Jim
12 McBride, the previous superintendent.
13 Q. And when did you enter into your current
14 contract with the Department?
15 A. The current contract would have been just the
16 most recent July.
17 Q. Okay. Are you -- are contracts year to year?
18 A. They are. We have to do -- respond to an RFP
19 each year.
20 Q. When was your first contract with the Department
21 of Education after you left as an employee?
22 A. The first one started January of 2011 as a
23 coach, district coach.
24 Q. So it wasn't really much of a break in your
25 employment history, just you changed from an employee to a
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1 contractor?
2 A. Yes, that's correct. There was a two-month
3 break.
4 Q. Okay. You referred a couple of times earlier in
5 your testimony to Title I. Can you tell me what you mean
6 when you say "Title I"?
7 A. Title I is one of the sections of the Elementary
8 and Secondary Education Act of 1965 that deals with
9 schools that are -- are -- have a certain percentage of
10 students that have low socioeconomic verifications.
11 Q. I'm going to guess here that the Elementary and
12 Secondary Education Act passed in 1965 is a federal
13 statute?
14 A. Yes,sir.
15 Q. What criteria are used to determine whether or
16 not a school is a Title I school?
17 A. A Title I eligible school is one that has --
18 meets the required percentage of low socioeconomic
19 students, families -- and families. It is one where the
20 performance is below the state expectations of a school.
21 Q. Anyothers?
22 A. Thereareothers.
23 Q. Does the school have to file an application with
24 the State Department for a grant as part of the
25 consolidating grant in order to be qualified under Title
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1 I?
2 A. They do. And Title I is a part of the overall
3 consolidated grant that includes other titles up through
4 IX.
5 Q. Are you familiar with the School Improvement
6 Grant program?
7 A. I am.
8 Q. What is the source -- is that -- is the School
9 Improvement Grant, commonly referred to as the SIG, S-I-G?
10 A. It is.
11 Q. What is the source of the SIG funding?
12 A. The SIG funding was made available through Title
13 I and a different section called 1003(g).
14 Q. Do you recall when 1003(g) was passed?
15 A. It was part of the ARRA, American Recovery and
16 Reinvestment Act, so I -- I think that was around 2010.
17 Q. Okay. But is ARRA the act that we've commonly
18 call the stimulus funding act or the stimulus act?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Does the No Child Left Behind Act
21 reauthorize the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of
22 1965?
23 A. No Child Left Behind is the reauthorization for
24 that.
25 Q. What schools are authorized to receive SIG
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1 funding?
2 A. Schools that are in the lowest performing
3 percentile of the state were defined as being eligible for
4 the SIG funding.
5 Q. Who defines the lowest performing school? Is
6 that the federal government or the State of Wyoming?
7 A. Well, both. Initially the federal government
8 did have its definition, and there were not very many
9 schools in Wyoming that were eligible to meet that
10 definition. And so in our application we expanded that
11 definition and so that it would include more schools.
12 Q. In 2011, in your view, was a Arapahoe Elementary
13 eligible to receive a School Improvement Grant under Title
14 I?
15 A. Arapahoe Elementary was a Title I school, but
16 there was school in the district that had -- that met more
17 of the needs of the SIG requirements, and so there were --
18 are different tiers that were determined during this
19 application process. And there was a Tier I school,
20 Arapahoe Charter High School, that was eligible for the
21 SIG funds.
22 Q. Okay. Let's lay a little foundation for that
23 testimony. First, how many tiers are there on under Title
24 I.
25 A. For the School Improvement Grants, there were
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1 three tiers. The Tier I were the neediest schools and the
2 ones that had to be considered first for a grant. The
3 Tier II were the less needier, and the Tier III was the
4 least needier.
5 Q. If a school district has a Title I school in it
6 that is not receiving SIG funding, is it -- let me start
7 that over. I confused myself.
8 If a school district has a Tier I school in it
9 that is not receiving SIG funds, and the same school
10 district has a Tier III school in it, is the Tier III
11 school eligible for SIG funding, generally speaking?
12 A. Not unless there's a waiver or some indication
13 from the Tier I school.
14 Q. Okay. Let's now talk about Fremont 38. Okay?
15 That's shorthand for Fremont County School District Number
16 38.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What is the geographic limits of Fremont 38?
19 A. It is on the Wind River Reservation.
20 Q. Are there other school districts on the
21 reservation as well?
22 A. Thereare--
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. -- at least two that I'm aware of. Fort
25 Washakie and Wyoming Indian School.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 155
1 Q. Okay. How many public schools are there in
2 Fremont 38?
3 A. Two.
4 Q. Whatarethose?
5 A. Arapahoe Elementary School and Arapahoe Charter
6 High School.
7 Q. And what grades does Arapahoe Elementary serve?
8 A. Kthrough8.
9 Q. In 2011, did either of those schools fall into
10 Tier I?
11 A. The charter school did.
12 Q. And was Arapahoe Elementary School a Title I
13 school?
14 A. Itwas--is.
15 Q. What tier was Arapahoe Elementary classified in
16 2011?
17 A. TierIII.
18 Q. I'm going to direct your attention to the day of
19 September 27th, 2011. Do you recall that day?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And what were you doing on September 27th
22 of 2011?
23 A. We were -- one of the district support and
24 coordination team members, Roy Hoyle, was traveling with
25 me, and we were providing technical assistance to Kemmerer
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1 Alternative High School or -- in the Kemmerer district
2 to -- providing technical assistance to help them with
3 their SIG grant application.
4 Q. And after you finished whatever you needed to do
5 in Kemmerer --
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. -- did you have plans to go elsewhere?
8 A. Yes, we were going to Greybull next.
9 Q. Did you finish your work in Kemmerer?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And do you recall that you were on your
12 way to Greybull on the 27th of September of '11?
13 A. Weweredriving--
14 Q. What happened during that trip?
15 A. Well, it was late during the evening, and I
16 received a call from Superintendent Hill, who let me know
17 that Sheryl Lain and Christine Steele were also on the
18 phone, and they asked me to go to Fremont 38 to help them
19 with a SIG application and to stay there until it was
20 submitted.
21 Q. Okay. So what did you do in response to that
22 direction?
23 A. I let them know that I had a commitment in
24 Greybull. They said, "We will work around that." And so
25 I -- we went on to Riverton, and then we went out to
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1 Fremont 38 the morning of the 28th, the next day.
2 Q. All right. And when you got to Fremont 38 --
3 well, first of all, is the administrative office of
4 Fremont 38 in Arapahoe?
5 A. It is in Arapahoe in a separate building from
6 the schools.
7 Q. And did you go to the administration building on
8 the morning of the 28th?
9 A. Yes, we -- as district coaches we always go to
10 the administration buildings first.
11 Q. Okay. And who did you meet with at Arapahoe --
12 at Fremont 38?
13 A. The business manager, John Law.
14 Q. And what did you do with Mr. Law?
15 A. I asked him what kind of support -- or what he
16 needed in the way of building or submitting a SIG grant.
17 Q. And explain to me specifically what you did to
18 assist him.
19 A. I -- I have a list of requirements that I always
20 refer to. And so I was sitting behind the desk with Roy
21 Hoyle and giving him advice about what needed to be in
22 each of the sections of the application form.
23 Q. Okay. And have you memorized the list of
24 requirements?
25 A. I have not, but I did bring a copy.
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1 Q. Okay. If you need to, go ahead and feel free to
2 refer to it.
3 How was it that Mr. -- well, first of all, did
4 you say that Mr. Law was the business manager?
5 A. Yes, sir, the business manager.
6 Q. Okay. How was it that Mr. Law was preparing the
7 application when you got there?
8 A. He was the person in the district that had
9 access to the Grant Management System at the Wyoming
10 Department of Education, which we refer to as GMS.
11 Q. And is that an online system?
12 A. It is.
13 Q. Okay. Were you aware that there had been
14 previously prepared an application by a group called -- or
15 a consultant group called Technology Innovation and
16 Education, sometimes call TIE?
17 A. I found out about that, yes.
18 Q. And did Mr. Law's -- I'm sorry, Law, have a copy
19 of the TIE grant application?
20 A. He did.
21 Q. And was he using the TIE grant application as a
22 model to prepare a new application?
23 A. He was.
24 Q. Then in the report that we have from Catherine
25 MacPherson there's a description of what you did. And
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1 if -- if I understand that report, it essentially says
2 that you wrote the grant application. Can you explain to
3 the committee exactly what you did with John Law on the
4 28th of September of 2011?
5 A. Okay. I -- I did not write any content. What I
6 was offering was the guidelines of following these
7 requirements and indicating -- or telling him which
8 sections -- there are four sections of the grant, and
9 which sections could be filled out and how the funding
10 could be allocated within those sections.
11 What happened -- and then he was doing the
12 narratives on his laptop, and then he started to enter
13 that and tried to enter them into the Grant Management
14 System, but he -- there were four sections also to the
15 Grant Management System by the different models that they
16 could choose from. And he started entering the
17 information in the closure modeling, and that wasn't the
18 right place. But all of a sudden -- then the Grant
19 Management System, the GMS, timed out, and he was just
20 having troubles and difficulties and struggling. And I
21 said, "Well, that's what I had seen in the other
22 districts, too, that system times out really quickly, so
23 maybe if we work together." And he gives me the
24 information, then I'll enter it by cut and paste into the
25 right section of the Grant Management System.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 160
1 Q. Okay. What -- you mentioned a school closure
2 model?
3 A. Yes,sir.
4 Q. Let me see if we can get a little bit more
5 information about this. As I understand it, there are
6 four separate models that are available for use in the
7 online Grant Management System, one is the school closure
8 model and there are a couple others?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Which model was appropriate for the grant
11 application for Arapahoe Elementary?
12 A. The transformation model.
13 Q. Are all the SIG applications for Wyoming schools
14 made under the transformation model?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So if I understand correctly, Mr. Law had some
17 information, some narratives, and he was entering them
18 into the school closure model?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that wasn't working?
21 A. Well, it would have worked fine, but it timed
22 out, and then I noticed it was in the wrong model.
23 Q. Okay. So what did you do in order to address
24 the problem, one, when the system was timing out; and,
25 two, if you had the wrong forms for the wrong model -- or
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 161
1 right forms for the wrong model.
2 A. Well, I asked Mr. Law to come and open his --
3 the Grant Management System under his ID and password.
4 And then he went over to his laptop, and I sat at the
5 keyboard, and we exchanged the information so that I could
6 paste it in there.
7 Q. How did you come up with the answer to the
8 various questions that were under the -- the right form
9 for the transformation model?
10 A. I would look at this list of requirements and
11 let him know what the -- how the school was going to have
12 to fulfill that piece of the application and what the
13 possibilities were as far as the name or a title of a
14 person that would fulfill those requirements.
15 Q. Can you briefly tell us what the list that
16 you're referring to contains.
17 A. So in the -- there are four sections that had to
18 be completed for the application, and the first one is
19 teachers and leaders. And in the teachers and leaders, we
20 needed to address that there needed to be a district
21 transformation team and that roles and responsibilities
22 needed to be very clear.
23 The second one is that the school would be
24 moving towards school autonomy, and that means that
25 everyone within the district needed to understand what
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 162
1 transformation really was and that the district policies
2 and structures and any modifications had to go through
3 policy.
4 And then the -- another piece of that teachers
5 and leaders was that there had to be the new principal in
6 the school, and so we had to explain the selection process
7 and how the -- the new teachers would be recruited to meet
8 the transformation requirements.
9 And the fourth part is to work with stakeholders
10 and build support for the transformation that is to make
11 sure that the teachers understand that being a
12 transformation school meant that the communications had to
13 be very clear to parents and within the school and that
14 there had to be a positive organizational change.
15 So--andthenthesecondpartwason
16 instructional leaders -- or instructional support, and one
17 of the requirements was that there be an external provider
18 to help with that kind of instructional support. They
19 also had to make a plan of how they were going to provide
20 all of the transformation team and the school the
21 information on what the school needed to do to be a SIG
22 school.
23 And then in the instructional change there's
24 a -- the next section was leading change. There had to be
25 a person that was designated as the change leader. They
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 163
1 had to be trained and build their capacity on how to
2 collect and act on data.
3 And then the next section is on time and
4 support, that's the title of the section, but that's where
5 we have the evaluation of staff and how they were going to
6 be rewarded or removed. And I'm -- those pieces had to be
7 addressed.
8 The next one was to provide rigorous staff
9 development, and that -- there was a reminder that staff
10 development needed to be a component of this application
11 and that not only funding was allowed for it, but time and
12 support was allowed for that.
13 Then increased learning time was an important
14 piece of the requirement of this grant, and so that was in
15 time and support. And then the last section is on
16 governance, and that one was called reforming instruction.
17 And it was -- it had a focus on the principal's and the
18 board's role of building leadership capacity and building
19 goals, implementing them and evaluating them, and then to
20 provide communication with all stakeholders about what
21 took -- was happening at the school.
22 Q. Were all those requirements generalized
23 requirements for any SIG grant application?
24 A. They were. I used this list with each one of
25 them.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 164
1 Q. Okay. Were Superintendent Hill and her
2 leadership team present at -- at the Arapahoe
3 administrative building when you were involved in this
4 exercise?
5 A. The -- Superintendent Hill and John Masters
6 and -- I don't know if any others, but I remember -- I can
7 recall those two were there on -- on the day that I was
8 working with John Law.
9 Q. All right. You mentioned the four categories of
10 activities that are covered in the grant application, and
11 if I got them down right, it's teachers and leaders,
12 instructional and support strategies, time and support --
13 THEREPORTER: I'msorry. Canyourepeat
14 that?
15 MR.SALZBURG: Teachersandleaders,
16 instructional and support strategies, time and support and
17 governance.
18 A. Yes,sir.
19 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Did you stay at Fremont 38
20 until the grant application was complete?
21 A. We stayed at Fremont 38 until we -- it was at a
22 point where it could be submitted.
23 Q. Okay. When you were finished, was there
24 narrative and funding requests in each of those four
25 categories?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 165
1 A. There was only brief narrative about the job
2 descriptions.
3 Q. Was there a funding request?
4 A. And there was a funding request in each of the
5 sections.
6 Q. In the book, the three-ring binder in front of
7 you, under your name there's an Exhibit 1. Do you have
8 it?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. Can you confirm that is a copy of the SIG
11 application with a time stamp on the first page that
12 indicates it was generated on September 29, 2011, at
13 2 seconds past 8 p.m.?
14 A. I do -- I see that here.
15 Q. Okay. Is that the application that you and
16 Mr. Hoyle assisted Mr. Law to prepare?
17 A. We were there on the 28th and pushed the submit
18 button, so...
19 Q. All right. Turn -- do you see the Bates number
20 at the bottom of the page?
21 A. The what?
22 Q. The Bates -- Bates is a -- is an outfit that
23 makes an automatic stamping machine. Do you see that
24 number at the bottom page that says FR --
25 A. Oh, yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 166
1 Q. --WDE-002054?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. This is -- this document is not paginated except
4 for those numbers, okay?
5 A. Oh,okay.
6 Q. All right. So if you would turn to page 2095.
7 Do you have it?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. And that page has a title at the top that says
10 Interventions: School Transformation Model, correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you see below that there is a heading called
13 Teachers and Leaders, do you see that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Now, there are blanks or what I think
16 were blanks that have been filled in, the narratives and
17 dollar amounts. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are those narratives the narratives that you and
20 Mr. Hoyle assisted Mr. Law with?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, look at the next page under Instructional
23 and Support Strategies. Do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are the narratives and funding requests that you
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 167
1 see there the ones that you prepared?
2 A. No.
3 Q. What's different about it?
4 A. The one -- the first one under Instructional and
5 Support Strategies has a long description in it, and we
6 didn't enter that kind of description in any of the
7 pieces.
8 Q. It says specifically, "WYR reading intervention
9 program, 18 tutors will be hired as consultants of the
10 district to work one-on-one with all students to develop
11 vocabulary and reading skills. Best practices are being
12 applied in partnership with the Wyoming Department of
13 Education and University of Wyoming. The district will
14 dedicate other resources to the program in its third year
15 to assure sustainability and building capacity." Is that
16 language that you put into that grant application?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you aware that this grant application was
19 going to be used to try and fund the program called WYR?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Under the funding requested for that particular
22 section of the grant, do you see in the year one it was
23 $449,000 requested?
24 A. Yes,sir.
25 Q. And then 672,000 in year two?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 168
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And 504,000 in year three?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you put those funding requests in the grant
5 application that you assisted Mr. Law to prepare?
6 A. Not that I recall. We did not know what amounts
7 were going to be in there. We just had an amount for the
8 grant director.
9 Q. All right. The next page, under Time and
10 Support, do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is there any funding requested under that
13 category?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Next page, at the bottom is Governance. Do you
16 see that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was there any funding requested for that
19 category?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You said that you didn't prepare the narrative
22 for the funding request for the SIG for the WYR program.
23 Do you know who did?
24 A. No.
25 Q. If you'll look at page 2100, about 40 percent of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 169
1 the way down the page, there's a statement that says, "WYR
2 is a comprehensive reading intervention that is supported
3 by four decades of research. The program is based upon
4 the techniques developed by Marie Clay for the Reading
5 Recovery program. The program was developed specifically
6 to reach entire student populations with measurable
7 deficiencies in reading." Did you prepare that
8 description of WYR?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Doyouknowwhodid?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Are you aware of four decades of research that
13 support WYR?
14 A. Not WYR specific. I know that the programs that
15 are the basis of WYR are research based, such as Reading
16 Recovery.
17 Q. Do you have any thought about whether or not you
18 can borrow the research that supports a different program
19 and call it your own program research base?
20 A. Being a researcher, I think that the research
21 has to be conducted on the program itself overall.
22 Q. Did the WYR program, as you understand it, also
23 incorporate reading and writers workshop?
24 A. I think there were some strategies from those
25 programs as well.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 170
1 Q. Are you familiar with those two programs?
2 A. I am.
3 Q. Okay. Now, we heard earlier testimony from
4 Gail Eisenhauer, and she described the situation, and I
5 think she said you were one of the tutors -- or not -- I'm
6 going to -- I'll get to that. You were one who was tasked
7 with training of -- at the Arapahoe Elementary the month
8 after the program began.
9 A. I participated in the training, yes.
10 Q. Whodidyoutrain?
11 A. No,Iwasatrainee.
12 Q. You were a trainee. Okay. So what were you
13 being trained to do?
14 A. To follow the protocols of the WYR program.
15 Q. Forwhom?
16 A. For -- with students.
17 Q. Okay. If you turn on -- in Exhibit 1 to page
18 2113, there's a list of Wyoming -- Wyoming's identified
19 Tier I, II and III schools. Do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How is Arapahoe Elementary classified?
22 A. AsaTierIII.
23 Q. When were you first aware that the SIG
24 application that was submitted on the 29th, the exhibit
25 that's in front of you, was not the one that you had been
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 171
1 required to prepare for Fremont 38?
2 A. When some weeks later Beth VanDeWege called me
3 and said that there was not entries in two of the four
4 sections.
5 Q. And you are confident that when you left Fremont
6 38 you had prepared entries in all four of those
7 categories?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What did you do in response to that information
10 received from Beth VanDeWege?
11 A. I said I knew that there had -- that intention
12 was for there to be an entry in each section, that's one
13 of the things that I had coached on. And so I would call
14 the district and see if I could help them find the notes
15 in John Law's laptop that we had used to cut and paste
16 those statements.
17 Q. At that time did you try to reach Mr. Law?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. And were you able to reach him?
20 A. No,he--hehad--wasgone.
21 Q. Who did you speak to at Fremont 38?
22 A. I spoke to the curriculum director, whose name
23 was Debbie.
24 Q. Andwhatdidyou--
25 A. No,Ileft--I'msorry.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 172
1 Q. Goahead.
2 A. I left a message with Debbie that I would help
3 make -- make the corrections on the SIG grant.
4 Q. Did Debbie ever get back to you?
5 A. Shedidnot.
6 Q. When did you and Mr. Hoyle leave Fremont 38 on
7 the 28th?
8 A. In the afternoon. I think it was a little bit
9 before 4:00. I remember we didn't have lunch, and so it
10 was very early when we left.
11 Q. Okay. I'm told that we have a public records
12 request that has been made by Casper Star-Tribune for any
13 documents or correspondence including e-mails, containing
14 information about a member or members of the Wyoming
15 Office of Superintendent of Public Instruction suing or
16 threatening to sue individuals who spoke to State
17 investigators for Governor Matt Mead's inquiry report into
18 Wyoming Superintendent of Public Instruction Cindy Hill.
19 Did you receive a threatening letter from anyone?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And who sent you that letter?
22 A. Anattorney.
23 Q. Do you remember his name?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You didn't pay a lot of attention?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 173
1 A. No, I did pay a lot of attention to it, but --
2 Q. All right. This is just for your information.
3 This is apparently how --
4 MR. SALZBURG: Mr. Speaker, I'm -- I'm -- I
5 think I'm finished with the examination of Dr. Mockelmann.
6 Do I understand correctly that you'd like me to ask the
7 general questions that Superintendent Hill has asked.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes, and there's a revised
9 list of questions.
10 MR. SALZBURG: Oh, okay.
11 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Dr. Mockelmann, these are
12 questions that are posed by Superintendent Hill and
13 requested to be asked. Are you represented by counsel in
14 this matter, and is that counsel here today?
15 A. I am not.
16 Q. Have you ever testified under oath before today?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay. Would you describe the situations in
19 which you've been called upon to testify under oath.
20 A. The first one that comes to mind is a teacher
21 that I had dismissed who questioned that dismissal, and so
22 the -- it came to trial, and so I was required to go to
23 testify the reasons why that teacher was dismissed.
24 Another time was when a child was in a
25 domestic -- or a family abusive case, and I was on the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 174
1 building leadership team, and as the superintendent was
2 asked to represent the District to discuss what had
3 occurred during the meetings about that particular child.
4 Q. Are those the situations you can recall that you
5 testified under oath?
6 A. That was a superintendent. There was another
7 hearing that I participated in as -- when I was a farmer,
8 I was an actively engaged farmer, and one of our truck
9 drivers ran over a car -- a little car, and that person
10 was killed, and I had to be in that -- I had to testify in
11 that hearing.
12 Q. And any others that you can recall?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Are you familiar with the penalties for perjury
15 and that you are subject to those penalties should you
16 provide false testimony?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you speak to anyone prior to today about
19 your testimony before this committee, including
20 Mr. Jarosh, Mr. Salzburg or representatives from their
21 firms, members of the legislature, other staff or
22 employees of the State, such as the governor's office or
23 the Wyoming Department of Education?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When did you speak -- first of all, with whom
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 175
1 did you speak?
2 A. To Rob and Bruce and my own family.
3 Q. I don't think your family was included in the
4 list.
5 A. Sorry.
6 Q. So let's talk about Rob and Bruce.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. And that would be me and this gentleman sitting
9 to my right, correct?
10 A. Yes,sir.
11 Q. Do you recall when you spoke to Rob and me?
12 A. Let's see. It seems like it was in -- right
13 before Thanksgiving.
14 Q. How long was your conversation with us?
15 A. Abouttwohours.
16 Q. Can you describe what you discussed?
17 A. Well, first of all, Roy Hoyle accompanied -- and
18 I went together, and we talked about the trip from
19 Kemmerer to Arapahoe and the change of plans and mostly
20 just about those particular days.
21 Q. Did Rob or I give you any instruction?
22 A. Not instructions. Just asked questions.
23 Q. Did the attorneys or their representatives
24 instruct you that your testimony must be truthful and it
25 must be based upon personal knowledge or observation and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 176
1 could not be based on speculation, conjecture or opinion?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
4 relating to your testimony?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Have you provided those documents to the
7 committee and superintendent?
8 A. To the committee? I provided them to the
9 MacPherson inquiry, and I have not provided them to
10 anybody else.
11 Q. Have you been subject to a subpoena for those
12 documents?
13 A. No.
14 Q. When deciding which documents or evidence should
15 be provided to the MacPherson committee, were you given
16 instructions of what to provide?
17 A. I was asked if I could provide documents to
18 support some of the information I provide -- I gave.
19 Q. Have you reviewed the report that came out of
20 the MacPherson investigation as it pertains to you?
21 A. Some. Notverymuch.
22 Q. Do the statements attributed to you in the
23 MacPherson report accurately reflect your testimony to
24 that committee?
25 A. So the section about me writing the grant is not
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 177
1 accurate.
2 Q. Have you corrected that inaccuracy through your
3 testimony today?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 MR. SALZBURG: Is it necessary to have an
6 affidavit to that effect, or is the testimony under oath
7 sufficient?
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Was that all your
9 questions --
10 MR. SALZBURG: No, Mr. Speaker,
11 Dr. Mockelmann just testified the only inaccuracy that she
12 recalls from reading the MacPherson report or the
13 portion --
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Was the part where she
15 wrote the grant. I heard that, then I got distracted.
16 MR. SALZBURG: I understand, and so the
17 question is -- she's corrected that in her sworn testimony
18 today, and so the question is do we require an affidavit
19 that reaffirms that particular item?
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I think that would just be
21 a waste of time, unless there are other corrections she
22 might have. If there are other corrections that upon
23 further review of the MacPherson report she wants to do by
24 sworn affidavit, then she can submit those, but if it's
25 corrected by testimony now, there's no sense doing wasted
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 178
1 effort for something we already know.
2 MR.SALZBURG: And,Mr.Speaker,I'm
3 through with my examination. Was there any specific
4 follow-up questioning from the superintendent or you, as
5 a --
6 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Mr.Salzburg,Ijustgot
7 it, and I'm just looking at them. She has eight questions
8 with a series of subparts, and I'm trying to evaluate
9 whether they all can be asked. Probably so, but I have to
10 think about it.
11 Are there any questions from the committee at
12 this point of Ms. Mockelmann?
13 Representative Zwonitzer.
14 REPRESENTATIVEZWONITZER: Thanks,
15 Mr. Chairman.
16 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
17 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) I was kind of
18 confused. On this grant, when you left it, did you submit
19 it to the granting authority or when you submit -- did you
20 know that it was going for further review by someone?
21 Where was that left? And obviously it got changed, and
22 perhaps this is speculation if you don't have firsthand
23 knowledge. Do you know how it was changed or who had
24 access to rewrite the grant?
25 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Ms.Mockelmann--make
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 179
1 sure you go through me, Ms. Mockelmann.
2 THEWITNESS: I'msorry. Iwrotemyselfa
3 note to do that.
4 A. Mr. Speaker, the -- I've kind of forgotten the
5 question. Can you restate that, please.
6 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Mr. Speaker. My
7 overall question is did you submit the grant to the
8 granting authority?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you aware there was another stage of
11 oversight or overview that it would be reviewed by another
12 party? And do you have any understanding of who had
13 access to this file, who could have edited it?
14 A. Okay. Mr. Speaker. The submit button is just
15 that. It's that. We did know that the superintendent of
16 the district had to also hit a submit button, and he
17 wasn't available at that time. But the way we left it
18 with John Law to fill in any kinds of additional
19 information that he had written.
20 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Anyfurtherquestions?
21 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: Mr. Speaker.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Connolly.
23 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: Mr. Speaker.
24 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) Dr. Mockelmann, is
25 it your understanding when you fill out a grant you fill
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 180
1 out the description in each of these boxes, and once it's
2 approved, then what you have written as your answer to
3 those questions then becomes the contract under which
4 you -- you will behave and provide services?
5 A. Mr. Speaker. The grant is written as -- and
6 becomes a contract. There are opportunities for
7 amendments.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Connolly.
9 REPRESENTATIVECONNOLLY: Thanks,
10 Mr. Speaker. Follow-up.
11 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) And were you aware
12 of those changes, including the Wyoming Reads, at the
13 point that the tutoring started in Fremont 38?
14 A. I became aware of them about maybe six weeks
15 later. Maybe four weeks.
16 Q. Mr. Speaker. And the timeline, then, are there
17 tutors working at that point? And were you one of them?
18 A. Mr. Speaker. There were tutors working at that
19 point. I did take my turn as a stint but not until
20 October.
21 Q. Mr. Speaker, just on follow-up.
22 So if I remember your testimony from early on,
23 it was that when you were in Fremont 38 doing the tutoring
24 you didn't believe you were operating under this SIG
25 grant, that instead that you were doing something else.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 181
1 Is that my correct recollection?
2 A. Mr. Speaker. As the group of tutors were
3 completely separated, we didn't have any idea of any
4 connection with the SIG grant and WYR.
5 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: Okay.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Greear.
7 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Mr. Chairman.
8 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Dr. Mockelmann, I'm
9 going to talk slow, so -- I want to get this down. So on
10 the 28th, did you say earlier that the grant was
11 completed, you and Mr. Law working together, and it was
12 sent before you left on the 28th?
13 A. Yes, sir, but that -- the pieces of the grant
14 that were necessary to submit just had the basic line
15 items with some of the budget amounts.
16 Q. Mr. Chairman. So, yeah, I told you I was slow.
17 So it wasn't completed then. I mean, you said it was
18 submitted, but when was that grant -- I mean, when was
19 that actually completed by the district to be sent off for
20 review by the State?
21 A. It had sufficient parts of it to be completed.
22 I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker.
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you understand the
24 difference? He's asking when is it completed, and you told
25 him that it could have been completed. What I think
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 182
1 Representative Greear is asking is when is the grant
2 finally completed so that it can't be changed anymore. Is
3 that what you're asking?
4 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Mr. Chairman, I
5 like when you to think for me, yes.
6 THE WITNESS: So, Mr. Chairman, truthfully,
7 when we were working on that grant, we wanted to get the
8 basic parts of it that were needed to be submitted,
9 realizing that it would be returned -- could be returned
10 for additional information. But the timing was that we
11 needed the specific parts to be completed.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: So what you're saying, if
13 I can put it into different words, is you wanted to just
14 get all the boxes checked and filled in and get it in
15 before the deadline so that you got the grant in before the
16 deadline, thinking that maybe they'd come back and ask for
17 additional information from him?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Speaker.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any further questions?
20 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Mr. Speaker, you're
21 doing good, but I do have --
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Greear,
23 then Representative Throne.
24 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) So the date on the
25 grant, which is the next date, the 29th at 8 p.m., what's
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 183
1 the significance of that date?
2 A. I don't know.
3 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Mr. Chairman.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Sure.
5 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Do you know who
6 would know?
7 A. Probably Mr. Law and that's all I would know.
8 Unless they have contacted someone at the Department of
9 Education to get help, and I don't know if that happened.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Throne then
11 Representative Zwonitzer.
12 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Mr. Speaker, thank
13 you.
14 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Thank you,
15 Dr. Mockelmann. I may be being a tad bit repetitive, but
16 I'm guessing for these grant applications there's some
17 sort of completeness checklist, and if you -- if you meet
18 those completeness requirements, then you've met the
19 deadline, is that a -- a fair understanding of what you're
20 saying?
21 A. Mr. Speaker. Representative Throne, yes, I was
22 using this list as requirements as the amount of
23 completeness of the application.
24 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Thank you.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 184
1 then Representative Davison.
2 REPRESENTATIVEZWONITZER: Thankyou,
3 Mr. Chairman.
4 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) This may be out
5 of your purview, but as a former grants administrator, to
6 access this system I was -- A, do you have a credentialed
7 password to log into the Grants Management System; and, B,
8 would there be a record of who else could or would have
9 logged in the Grants Management System to accessed this
10 grant? There is a protected system to access this
11 information you have to log into, correct?
12 A. Mr.Speaker.
13 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Dr.Mockelmann.
14 A. I have a read-only access, so I cannot get into
15 that. And that was -- that's part of the issue that we
16 only dealt with the one person that had the GMS access
17 from each district. So that's pretty limited, and --
18 REPRESENTATIVEZWONITZER: Okay. Thank
19 you.
20 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Okay. Representative
21 Davison.
22 REPRESENTATIVEDAVISON: Thankyou,
23 Mr. Chairman.
24 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON) I just have one
25 question, and that is is it unusual to use resources and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 185
1 then replace that with grant money when the grant money
2 comes available?
3 A. Mr. Speaker. Let me see if I'm rephrasing that
4 question correctly. Is it usual to use resources and then
5 realize that you could use the grant money for it? No,
6 it's usually -- it's usually the other way around that you
7 apply for a grant, have a plan in mind, make those
8 expenditures, and then request the funds to be covered.
9 REPRESENTATIVEDAVISON: Thankyou.
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative -- who was
11 it, Representative Winters.
12 REPRESENTATIVE WINTERS: Mr. Chairman.
13 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE WINTERS) I have a question
14 here. Would Arapahoe Elementary have been a Tier I
15 school, had Arapahoe Charter not been in that district?
16 And if -- if one school does not want to participate as a
17 Tier I school, is there some way to write a waiver to --
18 for this kind of circumstance? Is there a process?
19 A. Mr. Chairman. There is a process of if there is
20 a Tier I school in the district, there has to be a waiver
21 from that school or an agreement that they will be a
22 co-applicant to the grant.
23 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Anyfurtherquestions?
24 Representative Greear, then Representative Madden.
25 REPRESENTATIVEGREEAR: Okay.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 186
1 Mr. Chairman, in follow-up on Representative's question.
2 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Isn't that,
3 Dr. Mockelmann, what happened? Wasn't there an amendment
4 to this grant that was that same thing that Fremont 38,
5 Arapahoe Elementary did qualify and that the charter
6 school didn't need the grant funds or waived them or can
7 you speak to that?
8 A. I cannot speak to that. What -- when Mr. -- or
9 Represent -- Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry. I cannot speak to
10 that. When Mr. Hoyle and I were there, we always dealt
11 with the district, and so it was our impression that it
12 was a district grant.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any further questions?
14 Representative Madden.
15 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Thank you,
16 Mr. Chairman.
17 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) Reflecting on -- on
18 your involvement in preparing the school's application,
19 did you provide this level of service to other successful
20 applicants of the SIG grants?
21 A. Mr. Speaker. Yes, sir. It -- I used the same
22 list of referrals for each of the applicants, and we used
23 the same procedures that we did when we went to Fremont
24 38.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Madden.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 187
1 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) So if I understand
2 you right, then, the level of service you provided there
3 was really no different fundamentally from the level of
4 service you provided under SIG grant applicants; is that
5 right?
6 A. Mr. Speaker. That is correct.
7 REPRESENTATIVEMADDEN: Mr.Chair--
8 Speaker, if I could follow up.
9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) I'm looking at a
10 narrative where you were discussing that -- all the
11 trouble Mr. Law was having in the application process, and
12 at that point you indicated that Superintendent Hill asked
13 you if you know how to use the system, and it goes on and
14 says, yeah, you did, but not very well, and then she asked
15 you to go ahead and help with this application.
16 Is--isitsafetosay--orisitafair
17 statement to say that based on that, in your judgment,
18 Miss Hill either could have known or should have known
19 that you were involved in the application process?
20 A. Mr. Speaker. She was there during the day that
21 we were providing the technical assistance.
22 REPRESENTATIVEMADDEN: Thankyou.
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Connolly.
24 REPRESENTATIVECONNOLLY: Thanks,
25 Mr. Speaker.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 188
1 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) Dr. Mockelmann,
2 you just testified that you help other districts in the
3 same way you helped Fremont 38. I'm curious, are you
4 aware of any other grant application where you provided
5 this technical assistance where ultimately information on
6 a grant application was changed?
7 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Dr.Mockelmann.
8 A. Mr. Speaker. Yes. Almost every one of them
9 would have added their narrative pieces to it before -- or
10 after I had provided assistance, because I didn't select
11 any of the interventions or the actual activities that
12 they were going to do.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
14 REPRESENTATIVEZWONITZER: Thanks.
15 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Dr. Mockelmann,
16 so you write a lot of these -- or help with a lot of SIG
17 applications. Was there increased communication on this
18 grant compared to other grants in the leadership team of
19 the administration, or did it seem like there was more
20 interest or involvement or oversight communication with
21 you regarding this district and this grant in particular,
22 or before this matter was brought to your attention, did
23 it seem to be at the same level as every other grant you
24 were doing?
25 A. Mr. Speaker. There was more interest and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 189
1 attention given by the administration.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Throne.
3 Oh,doyouhavefollow-up?
4 REPRESENTATIVEZWONITZER: Yeah.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Zwonitzer.
6 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Any idea why,
7 Dr. Mockelmann, there was more involvement or interest in
8 this specific grant leading up to its submission?
9 A. Mr.Speaker.
10 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Doctor.
11 A. The leadership had selected Fremont 38 to be a
12 pilot school for helping in the reading program or helping
13 improve reading in the elementary school. I went -- I was
14 helping them with the application, I pointed out to them
15 that their math scores were actually lower, so they needed
16 to consider assistance -- technical assistance in both
17 reading and math.
18 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thank you.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Throne.
20 REPRESENTATIVETHRONE: Thankyou,
21 Mr. Speaker.
22 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) I don't have your
23 exhibit in front of me, but the -- the page that describes
24 the interventions selected, the 18 tutors, the use of
25 Wyoming Reads, you went through that with Mr. Salzburg, is
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 190
1 that a piece that is typically chosen and selected by the
2 District or the Department? What is the typical
3 process -- who makes those decisions?
4 A. Mr. Chairman. And, Representative Throne, that
5 would be a decision by the District.
6 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Anyfurtherquestions?
7 The superintendent has provided eight questions.
8 Question number 4 I think is appropriate for executive
9 session.
10 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Question number 1, please
11 describe your relationship with Mary Kay Hill.
12 A. I knew Mary Kay Hill when I was working at the
13 Department of Education. She was the director of the
14 administrative section. And I met with her on several
15 occasions.
16 Q. How long have you known Mary Kay Hill?
17 A. Since 2006, so for seven years.
18 Q. When was the last time you spoke with
19 Mary Kay Hill?
20 A. When Director Crandall was being introduced to
21 some people at the -- at the -- at the Department of
22 Education in August, I happened to be there that day, and
23 Mary Kay Hill was with him and we exchanged hello
24 greetings.
25 Q. Do you consider yourself a close friend of
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 191
1 Mary Kay Hill?
2 A. I consider myself on a professional -- having a
3 professional relationship with Mary Kay Hill.
4 Q. Did you discuss Senate File 104 with
5 Mary Kay Hill?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. Do you know Joe -- please describe your
8 relationship with Joe Simpson.
9 A. Joe Simpson also worked at the Department of
10 Education. He was a deputy superintendent, and I worked
11 with him closely to help build the statewide system of
12 support.
13 Q. How long have you known Mr. Simpson?
14 A. Forsevenyears.
15 Q. When was the last time you spoke with
16 Joe Simpson?
17 A. AttheinquiryinMay.
18 Q. Have you discussed this process with
19 Joe Simpson?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you consider yourself to be a close friend of
22 Joe Simpson?
23 A. Actually, I do. He is my neighbor as well, but
24 I don't get to visit with him.
25 Q. Did you discuss Senate File 104 with
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 192
1 Joe Simpson?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Are you familiar with the results that came from
4 WYR work in Fremont 38?
5 A. Notreally.
6 Q. Did you know that based upon subsequent years'
7 PAWS testing, fourth graders grew 40 percent in
8 proficiency, fifth graders grew 13 percent --
9 THEREPORTER: I'msorry. Canyouslow
10 down.
11 SPEAKERLUBNAU: I'msorry.
12 THEREPORTER: Canyoujustreadthose
13 over.
14 SPEAKERLUBNAU: I'llstartover.
15 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Are you familiar with the
16 results that came from the WYR work in Fremont 38? Did
17 you know that based on subsequent years' PAWS testing,
18 fourth graders grew 40 percent in proficiency, fifth
19 graders grew 13 percent, sixth graders grew 31 percent and
20 the seventh graders grew 15 percent?
21 A. Mr. Chairman, I am aware of significant
22 increases being made by the students at Fremont 38 during
23 that year. However, I think there are other attributes
24 and considerations that were put in place in the district
25 that helped contribute to that progress.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 193
1 Q. Who made the calculations of the tier
2 classifications for the SIG 1003(g) grant?
3 A. Those were made by some individuals in the
4 federal programs unit that actually wrote the Wyoming
5 Department of Education application to the federal
6 programs for that grant.
7 Q. Was there an error in the calculations made for
8 the 2011 status determination?
9 A. Idon'tknow.
10 Q. Well, then I guess you can't answer the who made
11 the error and who corrected it question that comes after
12 that, can you?
13 A. No,sir.
14 Q. Okay. Question 4 is appropriate for executive
15 session.
16 Are you still responsible for Arapahoe Fremont
17 38 as a contractor for the Wyoming Department of
18 Education?
19 A. I am not the current coach for that district.
20 Sandy Porter is. But I am the -- I am the coach for the
21 coach, so if there are any questions that the coaches for
22 the -- the schools have, they -- then they come to me.
23 Q. Did the district fulfill its obligations under
24 the SIG grant?
25 A. They are still under those conditions. This is
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 194
1 the last year of their SIG grant.
2 Q. Has there been an audit by the United States
3 Department of Education related to this grant?
4 A. By the United States Department of Education.
5 Q. That'swhatitsays.
6 A. For Fremont 38, not that I'm aware of.
7 Q. Okay. If so, were adjustments required? If
8 not, do you expect an audit in the near future?
9 A. I don't know about that. I know -- there --
10 there is an external evaluator, and that's the audit that
11 I'm reflecting on that could be considered as an audit.
12 She's an external evaluator that comes in to measure the
13 status of the school in regard to where it should be on
14 the grant.
15 Q. On the day the grant was submitted, at what time
16 of day did the superintendent leave for her trip to
17 Buffalo?
18 A. Idon'tknow.
19 Q. At what time was the grant submitted?
20 A. The first time we pushed the submit button I
21 would say it was around 3:30.
22 Q. Did you see Arapahoe submit the SIG application?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it possible the application was modified
25 after you left and prior to its submission?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 195
1 A. Yes.
2 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Thatisallof
3 Superintendent Hill's questions except for the one that
4 needs to be asked in executive session. Committee, are
5 there two folks who want to hear the answer to question
6 number 4?
7 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Mr. Chairman, I
8 would.
9 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Allright. Wewill
10 convene into executive session. Everybody who is not the
11 superintendent of public instruction, her deputy, or a
12 member of the committee or the court reporter or the
13 witness or the LSO staff, if you would please -- and the
14 Attorney General guys who are representing the people.
15 It shouldn't be too long, folks, but I don't
16 know. I never have control over these things.
17 MR.HILL: Mydeputyisonhisway.
18 (Pages196through198are
19 confidentialandsealedinaseparate
20 transcript.)
21 * * * *
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 199
1 (Off-the-record discussion.)
2 (The following occurred in
3 open session.)
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. We're back on
5 the record. This is an executive session advisement for
6 everybody who was in executive session. I will advise all
7 the members of the committee staff and representatives and
8 the Office of Superintendent of Public Instruction and the
9 Wyoming Department of Education that all testimony received
10 in executive session is confidential and privileged and
11 shall remain so until such time as this committee
12 determines additional legislative action is required to
13 based on that testimony or there's a judicial determination
14 that that testimony is public.
15 Wyoming Ethics and Disclosure Act provides at
16 9-13-105(c) that a public official, public employee or
17 public member shall not disseminate to another person
18 official information which the public official, public
19 employee or public member obtains through or in connection
20 with his position, unless the information is available to
21 the general public or unless the dissemination is
22 authorized by law.
23 Further, dissemination of testimony you are about
24 to hear is not authorized and may be -- that you did hear
25 is not authorized and may be punishable as a criminal
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 200
1 offense under Wyoming Statute 9-13-109(a) or by removal
2 from your office or official position under Wyoming Statute
3 9-13-109(b).
4 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Chairman.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yes, ma'am.
6 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Point of interest.
7 You handed me a piece of paper during executive session.
8 Is that under the executive privilege as well?
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: No, that's not.
10 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I just want to make
11 certain.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: That's a Freedom of
13 Information Act requested from the Casper Star-Tribune.
14 We are now -- Representative Patton, did you have
15 a comment?
16 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: I have a question.
17 How many statutes abridge the constitutional provisions of
18 this hearing?
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I don't know what you're
20 asking, so...
21 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: I'm asking through
22 the questioning, it was my understanding that this is a
23 hearing that's subscribed by the Constitution, and as such
24 we'll make our own rules. How many statutes then abridge
25 our rulemaking authority?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 201
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Well, apparently we passed
2 this one a few years ago, the Ethics and Disclosure Act,
3 and we're bound by it. I'm not going to argue the merits
4 of the Act. We don't have the time, and I don't have any
5 energy.
6 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: I wondered if that
7 was the end, so...
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Dr. Mockelmann, thank you
9 very much for your time. We appreciate your testimony. I
10 mean, I know that this was not a pleasant experience for
11 you. It never is. Thank you very much for coming here and
12 sharing with us.
13 THE WITNESS: You're welcome, Mr. Speaker
14 and Representatives.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Salzburg, please call
16 your next witness. Our next witness, I guess.
17 MR. SALZBURG: We'll call Beth VanDeWege.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ms. VanDeWege, did you
19 receive your initial advisements that explained the hearing
20 procedures?
21 THE WITNESS: I did.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions
23 regarding that?
24 THE WITNESS: No.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you understand that?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 202
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 (Witness sworn.)
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Jarosh or
4 Mr. Salzburg.
5 MR. SALZBURG: It will be me, Mr. Speaker.
6 For the record, we should note that Ms. VanDeWege
7 is represented by counsel today, Mr. Brad Cave from Holland
8 & Hart.
9 BETHVANDEWEGE,
10 called as a witness on behalf of the Select Investigative
11 Committee, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
12 EXAMINATION
13 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Would you state your name,
14 please.
15 A. Beth VanDeWege.
16 Q. Is your mic on?
17 A. I'm not sure.
18 Q. Ms. VanDeWege, did you hear the admonitions for
19 the guidelines with respect to your testimony here today?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. Do you remember what they were?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. How are you currently employed?
24 A. I'm the School Improvement Grant manager for the
25 Department of Education, and Title III director.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 203
1 Q. And how long have you held that position?
2 A. Little over two years.
3 Q. When did you first become employed by the
4 Department?
5 A. Early in September '11.
6 Q. And you mentioned Title III. Can you tell me
7 what Title III is?
8 A. Title III is a federal grant that provides money
9 for English language learners.
10 Q. And you're the School Improvement Grants
11 manager, I think you said?
12 A. Uh-huh,yes.
13 Q. Can you describe the School Improvement Grant?
14 A. It's been a part of the ESEA for a lot of years,
15 but it wasn't very -- used very often until the stimulus
16 money or ARRA, and then a lot of money went into the
17 School Improvement Grant, so it's pretty new, but it's
18 part of Title I.
19 Q. Can you summarize your educational and
20 professional background for us, please?
21 A. I have a Bachelor's of Science in economics from
22 the University of Wyoming with a minor in early childhood,
23 and I have a master's in Spanish, and I'm certified to
24 teach 7 to 12 Spanish.
25 Q. And your professional background?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 204
1 A. I ran the Montessori School of Cheyenne for 16
2 years. That's when I went back and got my master's after
3 I was done with that. Then I worked at CLIMB Wyoming for
4 a couple of years, until one of our children got sick. I
5 took a few years off to take care of her. And when she
6 got better, I went to work for the Department.
7 Q. During the period you just described, did you
8 also teach as a para in the Trailblazer program for
9 Laramie County School District Number 1?
10 A. Yes, I taught for several years. I taught
11 Spanish.
12 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the
13 application by Fremont County School District 38 for
14 School Improvement Grant shortly after you went to work
15 for the Wyoming Department of Education. Do you generally
16 recall that application?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you give us a little bit more detail about
19 the SIG funding program?
20 A. Yeah. It's -- the SIG grant in general is --
21 came about because the other School Improvement Grants
22 addressed one portion and what was wrong -- what a school
23 was struggling with. The School Improvement Grant was
24 different in that they wanted to be a systemic change for
25 a school that was struggling, so that's why you have the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 205
1 four categories that a school should address.
2 Q. If you -- in exchange, I suppose, for receipt of
3 SIG funding, did -- in Wyoming, using the transformation
4 model that Dr. Mockelmann described, is the school
5 required to make significant changes?
6 A. Yes. One of the changes includes getting a new
7 principal. If you -- if you've hired a new change leader
8 within the last year, that counts, but that's one of the
9 requirements of the transformation model.
10 Q. Okay. How much money is involved for Wyoming in
11 the -- in the SIG fund?
12 A. When we still had the ARRA funding it was -- it
13 varied, but it was around $3 million a year. Now it's
14 gone down to about 1.5.
15 Q. And how many schools are eligible for receipt of
16 that funding in Wyoming?
17 A. We've had 15 who have had the grant. The PLA
18 list shows which ones are eligible, so it would be more
19 than 15.
20 Q. Can you describe for us generally what the
21 original plan was for Arapahoe Elementary in terms of the
22 source of funding for the assistance that was going to be
23 given?
24 A. This happened like the day -- first week I
25 started. I heard that there was some leftover ARRA money
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 206
1 that another state department wasn't able to spend, and
2 that the Department of Education might get that, get a
3 chance to spend that money, so one of my first projects
4 was to write a letter to each district asking if they'd be
5 interested in using some of that money. Those letters
6 never went out, though.
7 Q. Okay. Did it turn out that the ARRA funding was
8 not available?
9 A. Yes. That's what happened.
10 Q. Do you recall a meeting on the subject of
11 Fremont 38 that occurred on September 19th of 2011?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us who was present at that meeting?
14 A. Superintendent Hill, David Holbrook,
15 Randy Tucker was on the phone, and I was there.
16 Q. And what was the purpose of the meeting?
17 A. The -- there had already been a grant written by
18 TIE, as you had mentioned earlier. And Randy was saying
19 that he didn't think all that money needed to go into all
20 the different areas and that maybe we could just focus on
21 the area of improvement the superintendent had wanted to
22 focus on.
23 Q. What was the area of improvement that
24 Superintendent Hill wanted to focus on?
25 A. Thereading.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 207
1 Q. And who -- who is Randy Tucker?
2 A. He was the technology director at Arapahoe at
3 the time. I think.
4 Q. Do you know why the technology director would be
5 the Fremont 38 representative for discussion of funding
6 for a reading program?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you recall what was said about funding the
9 reading program?
10 A. I recall that he said he could take care of all
11 those other areas of the grant the data collection, and
12 the -- all the other areas of the grant, so that more
13 money could go into the reading.
14 Q. And do you know what program he was referring to
15 in -- as the reading program?
16 A. IassumeditwasWYR.
17 Q. And WYR is short for Wyoming Read?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recall another meeting on this topic that
20 occurred on September 27th of 2011?
21 A. The one with Clem Jiminez --
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. -- and David Holbrook and Sheryl Lain and --
24 Q. You predicted my question very well.
25 A. -- me and David Holbrook.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 208
1 I just have to keep the meetings straight.
2 Q. I think this is the first time we've heard of
3 Clem Jiminez. First of all, is that Clemintina?
4 A. Yes, Clemintina Jiminez. She was our Title I
5 director.
6 Q. What was discussed at the September 27th
7 meeting?
8 A. Since I was brand-new, and she was the Title I
9 director, she was aware of some potential problems that we
10 wanted to bring up to leadership before the grant was
11 submitted.
12 Q. What were the problems that she wanted to bring
13 up?
14 A. One was that they were calling the people who
15 were working there tutors, and the State of Wyoming
16 requires tutors to be certified teachers. That's a
17 requirement of the Professional Teaching Standards Board,
18 and it's on their website, that tutors be certified
19 teachers. They don't have to be certified in the area
20 they tutor, but they have to be certified teachers in
21 Wyoming.
22 Q. Okay. Was there any discussion concerning
23 whether or not Wyoming Reads was research based?
24 A. There was. Wyoming Reads is based on Reading
25 Recovery, which is research based for grade 1 to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 209
1 extrapolate that it is research based for all other
2 grades; therefore, the question was is that valid.
3 Q. Okay. And what was the consensus of opinion at
4 the meeting?
5 A. We wanted to bring it up. We don't decide
6 what's research based. A field of educators decides,
7 so -- but we wanted to bring it up as a valid concern.
8 Q. Okay. Was there a concern expressed about
9 students being pulled out of other classes to be tutored
10 in this reading program?
11 A. In -- yes, in Title I schools, you're not
12 supposed to pull students out of the core programs for
13 remediation, because then they're just missing their core
14 education. And these students were being pulled out at --
15 we heard they were being pulled out at all times of the
16 day.
17 Q. Do you recall when the SIG application was due
18 in 2011?
19 A. Yes. The end of September, September 30th.
20 Q. Can you explain to the committee how the -- how
21 a decision has -- first of all, let me ask a foundational
22 question. Are the SIG grants competitive?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you explain how the decision is made whether
25 or not to grant the specific SIG application?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 210
1 A. So far we have granted all of the requests that
2 have been made. There was enough funding for all of them
3 to be funded. When they come in -- first we ask for a
4 district to write a letter of intent to apply for the
5 grant so that we know it's coming. And then we usually
6 have a WEN video to show them how to fill out the
7 application and what the requirements are. And then they
8 have some coaching support if they need it. And then they
9 submit the grants. Once we have the competitive grants,
10 we get a team of readers to read the grants, then we have
11 a meeting and decide on the funding based on that -- on
12 the grant readers.
13 Q. How many outside grant readers do you have
14 typically?
15 A. It's usually three.
16 Q. Did you have a set of three outside grant
17 readers for the 2011 SIG applications?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. Whowerethey?
20 A. Ben Millard, he's a professor at LCCC; and
21 Mohamed Salih, he used to work at LCCC and has done quite
22 a bit of independent contractor work for the Department;
23 and Ruth Arnold.
24 Q. As the deadline for the SIG applications drew
25 near, did you have any contact with Christine Steele with
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1 respect to the Arapahoe Elementary SIG application?
2 A. We were expecting to get -- I was expecting four
3 grants to come in that afternoon. And my phone rang, I
4 don't know, late in the afternoon, and it was Christine
5 from D.C. And she was on her cell phone, and she was
6 really agitated. And she said, "You get that grant in if
7 you have to drive out there and get it yourself."
8 Q. Okay. So you told us earlier that the deadline
9 was the -- was September 30th, so I'll assume these
10 conversations with Christine Steele occurred on the 30th
11 of September?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you get any direction from Mr. Lewis
14 regarding the Fremont 38 application?
15 A. He called and we knew they were having troubles
16 submitting the grant, because their people who had access
17 weren't there anymore, so we had to figure out a quick way
18 to get them access to submit the grant.
19 Q. Let me back up to this conversation that you had
20 with Christine Steele. At the time she called, had the
21 electronic version of the grant application hit the
22 Cheyenne system?
23 A. No. That's why she was calling, to say you get
24 this.
25 Q. Now, did Mr. Lewis give you any instruction with
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1 respect to how quickly the SIG application for Fremont 38
2 had to be approved?
3 A. Yes, he called and wanted me to accept the
4 application. And I said, "I have the application. I have
5 all the pages. It's for the amount we were expecting.
6 All the assurances are checked, but I can't accept this
7 grant. We have to read it and go through the procedures."
8 He said, "Then you get someone who knows more than you do
9 to accept it." And --
10 Q. What -- what do you mean by "accept"?
11 A. I think he was mixing up approval and
12 acceptance. We were accepting the grant application into
13 our system. To approve the grant is a different process.
14 Q. Okay. So I take it that sometime on the 30th,
15 after Christine contacted you, the grant application did
16 hit the GMS system in Cheyenne?
17 A. It did hit before 5:00, yes.
18 Q. Okay. And how long after that occurred did you
19 get this communication, whether it was a call or in
20 person, from Mr. Lewis?
21 A. It was a call. He was -- it was a call. Right
22 around 5:00.
23 Q. Okay. Was approving the grant application on
24 the 30th something that you had the power to do?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. What was it that -- what was your role with
2 respect to SIG applications and the deadline?
3 A. On that day I was supposed to make sure that all
4 the ones we were expecting were accepted into this system.
5 Not approved, just accepted into the system.
6 Q. At the end of September of 2011, how long had
7 you been working at the Department?
8 A. Threeweeks.
9 Q. And what was your level of familiarity with the
10 SIG program?
11 A. I knew it stood for School Improvement Grant.
12 It's a very -- it's the most complicated grant we do, and
13 it's taken a long time for everyone to understand it. So
14 my level of comfort with it was not high. I was just
15 doing the specific tasks that I was told until I
16 understood what was going on.
17 Q. When -- when you were originally contacted by
18 Christine Steele, the grant application was not yet in
19 Cheyenne, did you do anything to try and figure out why?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. Whatwasthat--
22 A. My coworkers from across the hall came running
23 in, and we figured out that there was there was something
24 on their end that wasn't allowing them to submit the
25 grant. So Randall Butt, our GMS guy, got on the phone,
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1 talked to John Law, got the appropriate access given to
2 them so that they could get the grant in.
3 Q. I understand from discussions with you and
4 others that the problem was that when the grant was
5 submitted by Law, it went to the superintendent, but there
6 wasn't a superintendent at that particular moment in time,
7 so it was kind of sitting there in somebody's in box and
8 never went any further.
9 A. That'scorrect.
10 Q. Isthataccurate?
11 A. That's what I have come to understand as well.
12 Q. Okay. Did you have any further communication
13 with Mr. Lewis after the application was received in the
14 GMS system at the Department?
15 A. Other than that phone call, unless I'm
16 forgetting something.
17 Q. Do you recall a conversation in which Mr. Lewis
18 asked you to tell him that the grant was fine?
19 A. Yeah, that was the same conversation. He said,
20 "Tell me it's okay." I said, "The things I can check
21 right now are okay, the assurances and the number of pages
22 and they're all open, and the amount is what we were
23 expecting."
24 Q. Okay. And did you ever have an opportunity to
25 review the grant application in more detail?
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1 A. I did later.
2 Q. What did you find?
3 A. Almost all of the money was put into WYR and
4 under instructional support strategies.
5 Q. Was it a requirement of a SIG application that
6 there be funding and narrative in support of all four of
7 the specific categories that were covered by the grant
8 application?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did the grant application that you reviewed
11 have a narrative and funding in all four of those
12 categories?
13 A. It did not.
14 Q. You were here in the room when Dr. Mockelmann
15 talked about Tier I schools and Tier III schools. Do you
16 agree -- would you agree that if there is a Tier I school
17 in the district that has not received SIG funding and
18 partnered with another school or waived its right, the
19 Tier III --
20 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. Could you repeat
21 that?
22 MR. SALZBURG: I forgot.
23 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) A Tier III school ought not
24 to receive any funding.
25 A. Fremont 1 asked the same thing, if their
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1 elementary school could get a SIG grant when their charter
2 school didn't want one, and they were told by the
3 Department no, that was not allowed.
4 Q. Was the rule any different for Arapahoe?
5 A. I -- yes, they let Arapahoe do it. My level of
6 understanding of the grant wasn't very deep at that time.
7 Q. Are you aware that in Fremont 38 there was a
8 Tier I school at the time?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that was Arapahoe Charter?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know whether or not Arapahoe Charter
13 waived any rights it had to receive funding ahead of a
14 Tier III school?
15 A. There is a waiver in the grant.
16 Q. Thereis?
17 A. Thereis.
18 Q. From Arapahoe or from Mr. Holbrook?
19 A. Mr. Holbrook wrote it.
20 Q. The question was did Arapahoe Charter waive its
21 right?
22 A. Idon'tknow.
23 Q. Was SIG money used to fund Wyoming Reads in
24 Fremont 38?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. How many payments were made from the original
2 grant application?
3 A. I don't know exactly. I know I saw one payment
4 around a hundred thousand dollars that said specifically
5 WYR. After that the payments said varying things.
6 Q. Are you aware that Title I programs must be
7 taught by highly qualified tutors or teachers and
8 paraprofessionals?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was WYR, as implemented in Fremont 38, a program
11 that met that requirement?
12 A. It's a good question. I have -- I don't know
13 everyone who was a tutor, and I don't know all their
14 qualifications, but it doesn't seem reasonable that
15 everybody was highly qualified who was doing it, tutoring.
16 Q. Do you know what the requirements are for
17 teachers, tutors and paraprofessionals in order to meet
18 the highly qualified requirement?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Tell us about, first, teachers.
21 A. Teachers in Wyoming have to be certified by the
22 State and then pass a praxis test on their subject area.
23 Q. Are you aware that there were folks who were
24 coaches that were sent to Fremont 38, given some training
25 on the WEN system, and then told to engage in one-on-one
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 218
1 teaching of these students?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were all of those teachers certified and passed
4 a praxis test?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How about tutors, how do you have -- what
7 requirements do you have to be a highly qualified tutor?
8 A. In Wyoming to be a tutor you have to be a
9 certified teacher. Some of the coaches, even though they
10 were superintendents and principals and had been teachers,
11 they were no longer certified teachers in Wyoming.
12 Q. What are the requirements for a para to be
13 highly qualified?
14 A. A para has to have a high school diploma and
15 either two years of college or an associate's degree or
16 pass the para praxis test to be highly qualified. And in
17 a Title I school a para has to always be under direct
18 supervision of a certified teacher.
19 Q. Do you know whether or not the folks who were
20 engaged in one-on-one teaching of these students up in
21 Fremont 38 were under the supervision of a teacher?
22 A. I don't know for sure, but it seems like it
23 would not be likely that they were, just given the
24 descriptions we heard today about going one on one and
25 pulling students out into different rooms at random times.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 219
1 Q. Okay. Has there been a federal audit of the
2 2011 use of WYR in Fremont 38 yet?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know whether or not it's coming?
5 A. No.
6 Q. When you reviewed the initial grant application
7 and saw that most of the funding was put into
8 instructional and support strategies to fund the WYR
9 program, did you send the application back?
10 A. We did. The first time we sent it back was to
11 revise the -- the total amount. The grant readers didn't
12 feel like that they needed the whole amount, so the grant
13 readers suggested we lower that. So the first amendment
14 was them lowering the amount, and that one came back with
15 all of the money in WYR, not any in any other category.
16 Q. Do you recall when that first amendment was
17 made?
18 A. December 8th.
19 Q. Of what year?
20 A. '11.
21 Q. So at the time there was still no funding in
22 time to support the governance?
23 A. That's accurate.
24 Q. And the funding for teachers and leaders had
25 been deleted and, if there was any left over, placed into
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1 the WYR program under the second category?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Was the grant amended a second time?
4 A. Yes. Amend -- the second amendment was
5 February 3rd, and after that amendment, there was grant
6 narrative and funding in all four categories. And the --
7 do you want to hear the wording on it?
8 Q. Sure.
9 A. It says the application was amended to
10 reallocate funds to address comments made by WDE. And it
11 took the word "WYR" out, but mentioned tutors for reading
12 and math.
13 Q. By February -- let's just say the spring of
14 2012, was the WYR program still being taught in Fremont
15 38?
16 A. I know it had -- it was not -- it was not going
17 real well. I don't know when it actually petered out,
18 but --
19 Q. Was there any money paid from the SIG grant to
20 fund WYR after, say, March of 2012?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now I'd like to direct your attention to a
23 meeting that occurred on November 19th of 2012.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Counsel, is this an
25 appropriate place to take a break? It's 3:00.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 221
1 MR. SALZBURG: That's fine.
2 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We've been going about an
3 hour and 45 minutes. We will reconvene at 20 minutes after
4 3:00.
5 (Hearing proceedings recessed
6 3:07 p.m. to 3:34 p.m.)
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Salzburg, if you would
8 like to continue, help yourself.
9 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
10 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Miss VanDeWege, you recall
11 you're still under oath?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That better? The mics are turned off, I think,
14 from the executive session.
15 Before the break, I drew your attention to a
16 meeting that occurred on November 19th of 2012.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were you asked to attend the meeting?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How were you notified of the meeting?
21 A. By e-mail just a couple minutes before 11:00.
22 Q. And when was the meeting to occur?
23 A. At 11:00.
24 Q. What was the purpose of the meeting?
25 A. Superintendent Hill wanted to talk to all of us
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 222
1 about the legislative report that had just been issued.
2 Q. Okay. If you'll look in that three-ring binder
3 in front of you, under your name there's an Exhibit 1.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that the report that you're referring to?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you describe for the committee what occurred
8 at the meeting?
9 A. She said she wanted to talk to us about the
10 legislative report and how the -- none of it was true.
11 Q. You're talking about Superintendent Hill?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were there any other members of the leadership
14 team present in the meeting?
15 A. Sam Shumway, Megan Meisen and Kevin Lewis.
16 Q. Did Sam Shumway make any comment in response to
17 Superintendent Hill's claim that nothing in the report was
18 true?
19 A. Yes, he said, "Well, a couple of things are
20 true." And she asked him, "What?" And he said, "Well,
21 we've lost 50 percent of our staff."
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Then she said, "And nothing else is true."
24 Q. The report states in Footnote 1 -- before we get
25 to Footnote 1, let me give you the reference. The report
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1 states that there's been a loss to institutional
2 knowledge, experience, and capacity and administration
3 standards, assessment, accountability, special education,
4 school finance, data management, school support, reporting
5 and information technology, and legal and legislative
6 support that is substantial. Then there's a footnote
7 that states that the conclusion -- the footnote to that
8 conclusion states that there had been a loss of some 48
9 percent of the Department staff members between November
10 of 2010 and September 2012. Do you know if that statistic
11 is accurate?
12 A. No. Idon'tknow.
13 Q. And were you aware that there were a lot of
14 vacancies in the Department at the time you started?
15 A. Yes,therewerealot.
16 Q. And what happened next that you can recall?
17 A. Superintendent Hill talked about how she wasn't
18 going to let the legislature bully her, and she showed us
19 a video by Michael Fullan about intrinsic motivation
20 versus extrinsic motivation and said the accountability
21 bill that the legislature wanted was extrinsic motivation
22 and it would never work, and the people of Wyoming didn't
23 want it, and she wouldn't be bullied.
24 Q. Have you seen the photograph of the whiteboard
25 that was taken by Gail Eisenhauer?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 224
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. At the top of that photograph in a -- it looks
3 like a box, I think it says, "External accountability does
4 not work." Do you recall who talked about external
5 accountability not working at that meeting?
6 A. Superintendent Hill.
7 Q. So was this a suggestion from somebody other
8 than Superintendent Hill, external accountability wouldn't
9 work?
10 A. I don't recall anyone else talking about that.
11 Q. About how many people were in attendance at the
12 meeting?
13 A. Around30,35.
14 Q. Do you know how those people were selected to
15 attend?
16 A. It became apparent after sitting in the meeting
17 it was all new people.
18 Q. I think you said that other than Superintendent
19 Hill and Sam Shumway, Megan Meisen and Kevin Lewis were
20 also at the meeting. What did Kevin Lewis do at the
21 meeting?
22 A. He didn't sit in the circle like everybody else.
23 He stood up behind Megan and Sam behind the pillar and
24 took notes.
25 Q. Behind the pillar. Describe for me what you
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 225
1 mean by "behind the pillar."
2 A. It's a pillar in the middle of the room, and he
3 was standing behind it taking notes.
4 Q. Do you know what notes he was taking?
5 A. No. Notforsure.
6 Q. Do you have an understanding or belief of what
7 he was making notes of?
8 A. Just from hearing other stories about his body
9 language studies, I thought maybe that was what he was
10 doing.
11 Q. After the video was played, what happened?
12 A. Superintendent Hill asked does -- everyone who
13 trusted her to stand up. And then she asked if she could
14 trust us we should step forward. And then we all had to
15 hold hands for a really long time while she talked about
16 being in the inner circle of trust.
17 Q. Before I forget, were you surprised by
18 Superintendent Hill's stance on external accountability?
19 A. Personally,no.
20 Q. Whydoyousaythat?
21 A. I can't say anything specific. I just wasn't
22 surprised that that was her attitude.
23 Q. Had you heard similar statements by
24 Superintendent Hill before then?
25 A. Vaguely, yes. She also said that through -- she
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 226
1 said at the meeting that she had been going around talking
2 to people in Wyoming about this and that they didn't want
3 it.
4 Q. Okay. My question is had you ever attended one
5 of these meetings around Wyoming where she made such a
6 statement?
7 A. No,Ihadn't.
8 Q. How would you describe your politics?
9 A. I'm a conservative Republican.
10 Q. Were you a supporter of Superintendent Hill?
11 A. Iwas. Ivotedforher.
12 Q. And we are now a year and a couple months
13 through your employment, right?
14 A. Twoyears.
15 Q. September to November -- September -- I don't
16 mean now. I mean as of November 19th, 2012.
17 A. Yes,yes.
18 Q. You had been employed for a little more than a
19 year?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And were you still a Hill supporter by then?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Andwhywasthat?
24 A. I'd had a couple of discussions with
25 Superintendent Hill about not taking too much federal
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 227
1 money, and we agreed on that, and how great it was that
2 Wyoming was independent and financially conservative, and
3 we agreed on that. But her leadership style was
4 difficult.
5 Q. Tell the committee what you mean by "difficult."
6 A. It was erratic and threatening and
7 unpredictable.
8 Q. Have you ever seen an employee escorted out of a
9 building with their belongings in a box?
10 A. I have heard lots of stories, but I didn't
11 myself see that.
12 Q. Were there any human resources problems in the
13 Department during your little more than a year?
14 A. Many.
15 Q. I'd direct your attention to the 2013
16 legislature. Was there a time when you became aware of --
17 of Senate File 104?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And do you recall speaking to Speaker of the
20 House Tom Lubnau to assess -- to express your thoughts
21 about Senate File 104?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Whatdidyoutellhim?
24 A. I knew the report was about the accountability
25 that the legislature wanted to enact, and I knew that's
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 228
1 when the legislature was debating about whether or not
2 Miss Hill was going to move forward with that and be
3 cooperative. And I had a piece of information that I
4 could let the legislature know that I heard her say in a
5 meeting, she was not in support of that and wasn't going
6 to be bullied into doing it. So I called him and I said,
7 "I don't know if you think this would be pertinent or not,
8 but this is what happened at this meeting." And he said,
9 "Yes. Would you come in and testify?"
10 Q. Did you follow up that call with a letter?
11 A. Yes. I was going to be out of town when he
12 wanted me to come in, so I wrote a letter to the effect.
13 Q. Okay. Would you look at Exhibit 2 under your
14 tab there in the book. What's the date of the letter?
15 A. January 18th, 2013.
16 Q. Is that a copy of the letter that you wrote to
17 Speaker Lubnau?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In the letter there's a statement that
20 Superintendent Hill "would do everything she would to
21 thwart attempts to implement external accountability as
22 prescribed by the legislature." Do you stand by that
23 statement?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. Are you aware that on January 23rd of 2013 Sam
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1 Shumway wrote to the legislature claiming that that
2 statement was patently false?
3 A. Iamawareofthat.
4 Q. Are you aware that on January 23, 2013,
5 Megan Meisen wrote to Representative Piiparinen and
6 essentially rebutted the statements you made in the
7 letter?
8 A. Yes,Iamawareofthat.
9 Q. Do you have any of reason to retract or amend
10 the statements that you made in the letter?
11 A. No.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Salzburg, in addition
13 to the basic witness questions on the amended list, on the
14 original list Superintendent Hill has some questions that
15 she's calculated for Ms. VanDeWege. Would you ask all of
16 those?
17 MR.SALZBURG: Yes,Mr.Speaker.
18 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Ms. VanDeWege, are you
19 represented by counsel in this matter and is that counsel
20 here today?
21 A. Yesandyes.
22 Q. I've already introduced him.
23 So have you ever testified under oath before
24 today?
25 A. Yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 230
1 Q. Can you describe those however many times that
2 occurred?
3 A. I think just one time. It was a grievance
4 against a chiropractor.
5 Q. Are you familiar with the penalties for perjury
6 and that you are subject to those penalties should you
7 provide false testimony?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you speak with anyone prior to today about
10 your testimony before this committee, including
11 Mr. Jarosh, Mr. Salzburg or representatives from their
12 firms, members of the legislature, other staff or
13 employees of the State, such as the governor's office or
14 the Wyoming Department of Education?
15 A. Just you and Mr. Jarosh and my counsel.
16 Q. We don't want to hear about your conversations
17 with your counsel.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. When did you speak with Mr. Jarosh and me?
20 A. It was before Thanksgiving, with both of you for
21 about two hours.
22 Q. Okay. You predicted the next question, so we'll
23 skip it.
24 Describe in detail the discussions you had with
25 Mr. Jarosh and me.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 231
1 A. You just interviewed me about what happened,
2 about -- about facts.
3 Q. Same thing we've talked about today?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you -- or did Mr. Jarosh or I give you any
6 instructions?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did the attorneys or their representatives
9 instruct you that your testimony must be truthful and that
10 it must be based on personal knowledge or observation and
11 could not be based on speculation, conjecture or opinion?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
14 relating to your testimony?
15 A. WDE records and files. And that's all.
16 Q. If so, have you provided those documents to the
17 committee and superintendent?
18 A. Where applicable, yeah.
19 Q. When deciding which documents or evidence should
20 be provided to the MacPherson committee, were you given
21 instructions of what to provide?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What was your standard for deciding what to
24 provide?
25 A. Relevancy.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 232
1 Q. Have you reviewed the report that came out of
2 the MacPherson investigation as it pertains to you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do the statements attributed to you in the
5 MacPherson report accurately reflect your testimony to
6 that committee?
7 A. They're generally accurate.
8 Q. Do you affirm under oath all of the statements
9 attributed to you in the MacPherson report?
10 MR. CAVE: Mr. Chairman, we request the
11 opportunity to review the MacPherson report in more detail
12 and submit an affidavit, and as discussed with prior
13 witnesses, to the extent Ms. VanDeWege has any -- sees any
14 discrepancies in that report, rather than address the
15 entire report in response to a general question.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Any objections? Any
17 objections? Okay. Do that.
18 I've got to run downstairs and get Superintendent
19 Hill's list of questions for Miss VanDeWege. I will leave
20 the meeting to the majority floor leader while I'm gone.
21 Bruce, keep going with the questions.
22 MR. SALZBURG: Yes.
23 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Ms. VanDeWege, what is your
24 husband's name?
25 A. Patrick Day.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 233
1 Q. Is he an attorney?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is this the same Patrick Day who was in law
4 school with Mr. Lubnau and was recently considered for
5 appointment to the Wyoming Supreme Court?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did your husband or any member of the
8 legislature or any member of the governor's office
9 encourage you to write the letter to the legislature last
10 session that contained many of the allegations about the
11 superintendent and WDE?
12 A. No.
13 MR. CAVE: Mr. Chairman, Mrs. VanDeWege can
14 answer that question. I'm certainly not going to instruct
15 her not to. I do want the record to reflect that by
16 allowing her to answer the question, we do not waive any
17 confidential marital privilege or attorney-client
18 privilege, depending on the role her husband may have been
19 serving in with respect to communications they may have had
20 about the letter.
21 And subject to that, that protection on record,
22 Ms. VanDeWege, your answer is?
23 THE WITNESS: No.
24 MR. CAVE: Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: That was my answer to the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 234
1 first question, then you confused me.
2 MR.CAVE: Sorryaboutthat.
3 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Did anyone assist in
4 preparing the letter?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you feel you had a special protection from
7 retaliation at the time you drafted and submitted the
8 letter?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were you still on probationary status at the
11 time you prepared and filed the letter?
12 A. No.
13 Q. At any time did Cindy Hill threaten to fire you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Is Mr. Larry Wolfe, who testified in support of
16 Senate File 104, a part -- a partner of your husband?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was his interest in providing this
19 testimony?
20 MR.CAVE: Mr.Chairman,Iwouldassertan
21 objection to that question, since there's been no
22 foundation laid. I realize the Rules of Evidence don't
23 apply here, but, again, Mr. Wolfe hasn't been asked to
24 testify at this hearing, and his motivation for testifying
25 on Senate File 104 has nothing to do with Ms. VanDeWege's
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 235
1 testimony.
2 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Waitaminute. I'm
3 sitting here on an objection.
4 Counsel, your objection's noted, and if we may,
5 we'd like to have your client answer the question.
6 THEWITNESS: Canyourepeatitforme,
7 please?
8 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) What was his interest in
9 providing this testimony -- referring to his testimony in
10 support of Senate File 104, if he did?
11 A. I don't know anything about Larry's testimony.
12 Q. Does Mr. Wolfe represent one or more businesses
13 who hire him to lobby the Wyoming legislature?
14 A. I don't know what Larry does.
15 Q. In fact, does not the Wyoming Capitol Club list
16 him as representing Duke-American Transmission Company,
17 ATC, Duke Energy, Holland & Hart LLP, Holly Frontier,
18 Jackson Hole Mountain Resort, Lincoln Electric Systems,
19 One Oak, Questar Corp & Affiliates, Safeway, Town of
20 Jackson, Union Tank Car, among others as lobbying clients?
21 A. I don't know. I haven't read that publication.
22 Q. Do all members of your husband's firm directly
23 or indirectly benefit from Mr. Wolfe's representation of
24 these and other lobbying clients?
25 A. Idon'tknow.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 236
1 Q. Do either you or your husband have a personal
2 relationship with any members of the committee?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you been to the home or invited to your
5 home any of the individuals on this committee for social
6 reasons?
7 A. I haven't been.
8 MR. SALZBURG: That's it, Mr. Speaker.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Committee, do you have any
10 questions?
11 Representative Zwonitzer.
12 And, Mr. Majority Floor Leader, would you keep
13 running this part until I get through these questions?
14 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: I will.
15 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thank you,
16 Mr. Chairman.
17 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) At this meeting
19 in November when people were asked to stand up and hold
20 hands in support, do you remember anyone not standing up
21 at the time or just -- or --
22 A. No. Everyone did.
23 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
24 Madden.
25 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Thank you,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 237
1 Mr. Chairman.
2 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) Ms. VanDeWege,
3 reflecting on what you have said about the -- I guess I
4 will call it the incredible pressure to, you know, to
5 approve or accept this grant with school or District 38,
6 as you recall back, does -- was there a comparable amount
7 of pressure to -- to approve the other four -- I think it
8 was the other four SIG grants that were being channeled
9 through at the same time?
10 A. No.
11 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: A follow-up?
12 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
13 Madden.
14 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN) I'm just kind of
15 looking at the calendar here, and this is a situation
16 where if -- approximately, this whole situation at 38
17 happened -- or began, the commencement was around the end
18 of July, expenditures started to be made at the end of
19 July and into August. And then when the teaching got
20 started in August, actually, wasn't it? And then the --
21 the grant wasn't due until September. So all this time
22 money was being spent and resources were being used.
23 And the grant was accepted on the 30th of
24 September, but then there was no official approval until,
25 I remember right, the 6th of December. So by that time,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 238
1 between -- it just occurred to me that between the School
2 District 38 and the -- and WDE themselves, by that time
3 had spent a hundred -- or hundreds of thousands of dollars
4 without knowing this grant would be approved. And I'm
5 just thinking, can you give me some idea, is -- you know,
6 what was -- what was plan B to this situation? What if
7 somewhere along the line the grant hadn't been approved?
8 Say one of the readers said they didn't think it was fit
9 to be approved, or you said it wasn't or that government
10 or whoever's involved in the stepwise process, what was
11 the -- what would happen if it was denied all the way
12 through?
13 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Ms. VanDeWege.
14 A. Mr. Speaker. I don't know. I don't know what
15 would have happened.
16 REPRESENTATIVEMADDEN: Idon'teither.
17 A. I'msorry.
18 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
19 Davison.
20 REPRESENTATIVEDAVISON: Thankyou,
21 Mr. Chairman.
22 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON) I just have a
23 couple of questions. One of the questions that was asked
24 of you is your testimony had to be truthful and not based
25 on speculation or conjecture. But you said in your
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 239
1 testimony that someone -- several people told you that the
2 students were being pulled out of their classes all
3 through the day. But you didn't know that firsthand; is
4 that correct?
5 I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. That's my question.
6 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Ms.VanDeWege.
7 A. Mr. Chairman. It is true that several people
8 told me that.
9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON) And one other
10 question is you also said that -- about people being
11 escorted out or things happened around the office that you
12 didn't know firsthand, but you had heard that.
13 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Ms. VanDeWege.
14 A. Mr. Chairman. I did hear those things.
15 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON) So is that
16 considered speculation? It's not --
17 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
18 Davison, as I recall her testimony, she said -- she
19 testified she heard that, but never observed it herself.
20 Wasn't that what her testimony was?
21 Okay. Representative Zwonitzer.
22 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thank you.
23 Question on this is grant approval, Mr. Chairman.
24 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) When Mr. Lewis
25 called you, can you remind me what time that was? And my
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 240
1 question specifically is was he aware the grant was
2 already in the system when he called you? As you
3 testified, Miss Steele said it hadn't been in the system
4 yet, but by the time Mr. Lewis called you, he knew it was
5 in the system before he called you or was he not sure it
6 was in the system when he called you?
7 A. Mr. Chairman. He called me twice, once to make
8 sure it was in, and it hadn't been, and then once when he
9 knew it had been to ask me to accept it.
10 Q. Mr. Chairman. Could you remind me the time
11 frame of when that was over the course of an hour, two
12 hours, a day? Roughly.
13 A. Mr. Chairman. It would have all been between
14 4:00 and 5:00 that evening.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Or quarter to 4:00 and 5:00.
17 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thanks.
18 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
19 Connolly.
20 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: Thank you,
21 Mr. Majority Floor Leader.
22 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) Ms. Mockelmann,
23 I'm trying to -- Ms. VanDeWege, I'm trying to understand
24 this grant process as well with Dr. Mockelmann's
25 testimony. The grant I'm familiar with, when you write a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 241
1 line item on a budget, you're obligated to spend from that
2 line item within plus or minus 5 percent, that's mostly
3 what I'm familiar with. But it sounds to me, at least
4 your testimony was, with this particular grant, that
5 monies, big monies, hundreds of thousands of dollars were
6 associated with one of these four categories, and then
7 three months later it was changed and then changed again.
8 Is -- and Wyoming Reads is in there and out of there at
9 different times, is what I'm getting from the testimony.
10 And I'm curious, is that standard operating procedure for
11 these types of grants?
12 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Ms. VanDeWege.
13 A. Mr. Chairman. On our one-year grants, our --
14 there's fewer opportunities for amendments and for
15 changes. On a three-year grant, there are going to be
16 some changes. I don't have any other grants, though, with
17 this many amendments. So this isn't very normal.
18 REPRESENTATIVECONNOLLY: Okay.
19 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
20 Davison.
21 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON) Just one other
22 question. Has there been an audit performed on the WDE or
23 what happened -- how come the audits haven't picked up
24 anything that is out of line?
25 A. Mr.Chairman.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 242
1 That's not really my area. I'm sorry.
2 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
3 Greear.
4 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Mr. Chairman, thank
5 you.
6 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) I want to go back
7 to -- you made a comment, we were talking about Tier III
8 schools applying for the SIG grant. And you made the
9 comment that this was done for Arapahoe in that something
10 along the lines that they allowed that to be applied for.
11 Who is "they"?
12 A. Mr. Chairman. The leadership team decided that.
13 I don't know who all decided that that was going to be
14 okay.
15 Q. Mr. Chairman. So you -- who told you to go
16 ahead and process the grant with that? With the
17 application from a Tier III school.
18 A. I wasn't aware at that time that it wasn't an
19 accepted practice. I didn't know about that part of the
20 grant. And at that time of my job, I was kind of doing
21 what was told, and -- what I was told to do. And so I
22 have come to learn that that is not accepted practice, and
23 I wouldn't have done that again, had I known a little bit
24 more what I was doing at that time. So that came
25 basically from my supervisor from the leadership team, I'm
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 243
1 imagining.
2 Q. Mr. Chairman. So this round of grants was in
3 September 2011. Had there been any more SIG grants since
4 then?
5 A. Yes, we have had -- Chairman, I'm sorry. We've
6 had one other round of SIG grants.
7 Q. Mr. Chairman. In that other round were there
8 any Tier III schools that applied?
9 A. They're all Tier III schools. We had one Tier
10 III school in one district, and the rest were Tier III
11 schools. But they weren't -- it wasn't the same problem
12 that was in Fremont that -- Fremont -- a Tier I from one
13 district and then a Tier III from another district. It's
14 just if you have a Tier I and a Tier III in the same
15 district.
16 Q. So -- Mr. Chairman. Thank you. I recall that
17 now. The Tier III school that was approved in this last
18 round, there was not a Tier I school or a Tier II school
19 in the district?
20 A. That'scorrect.
21 Q. I'm still -- Mr. Chairman -- still struggling
22 with the timeline on this grant application and how that
23 goes. We heard testimony earlier that Dr. Mockelmann had
24 assisted with Fremont 38 grants, and as near as I can
25 tell, a little bit before 4:00 on the 28th the send button
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 244
1 was pushed. When did you receive the grant for -- what
2 day, and, again, what time?
3 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Ms.VanDeWege.
4 A. Mr. Chairman. Well, September 30th, and it
5 would have been after 4:00. So one person from a district
6 can work on the grant and push submit, then it goes to the
7 superintendent's box, then the superintendent presses
8 submit. They didn't have a superintendent, so it was just
9 going to an empty box. That's where the holdup was. As
10 soon as we got that figured out, then they were able to
11 submit it from there.
12 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) So -- Mr. Chairman.
13 So while it was going to the empty box and waiting for it
14 to get here to Cheyenne, was there an opportunity for that
15 grant to be modified or changed?
16 A. Mr. Chairman. I don't know.
17 REPRESENTATIVEGREEAR: Okay.
18 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
19 Zwonitzer.
20 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thank you,
21 Chairman. Two more questions.
22 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) So you testified
23 that at the time this was going on you'd been there not
24 too long and you didn't realize the discrepancies. When
25 you did realize -- I guess my question is was it pointed
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 245
1 out to you later on there were problems, or did you come
2 across the issues on your own? And what was the procedure
3 you followed immediately realizing there was issues with
4 this grant or it wasn't filled out correctly? Did you
5 report it to a supervisor, or did someone come to you and
6 say this isn't correct, we're redoing it?
7 A. Mr. Chairman. As soon as I realized that all of
8 the areas of the grant should be addressed, Dr. Mockelmann
9 and I talked, and she worked with them and we got the
10 grant adjusted so that there was something in each of the
11 categories. And that's when they submitted their second
12 amendment pursuant to our comments.
13 Q. I guess I'm confused. When you talked to
14 Dr. Mockelmann, then, did she express surprise they
15 weren't all filled out? Because when she had done it,
16 they were, from what I remember she testified. Was there
17 a red flag there when you talked to her, or did you know
18 before that there was an issue? You want me to rephrase
19 that?
20 A. Yeah, why don't you ask me again.
21 Q. So -- Mr. Chairman. Did you know there were
22 issues with the grant before you talked to Dr. Mockelmann
23 that she believed she had filled out all these areas and
24 you told her these areas weren't filled out and the red
25 flag goes up immediately at that point, is that my
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 246
1 understanding?
2 A. Mr. Chairman. I don't remember the exact
3 conversation, but she did express surprise that there
4 wasn't something in every area of the grant, and I said,
5 "We're going to need to get that fixed," and we did. The
6 issue about the Tier I and Tier III didn't come up until
7 later, and that I realized that had happened.
8 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
9 Greear.
10 REPRESENTATIVEGREEAR: Thankyou,
11 Mr. Chairman.
12 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Just one more line
13 of questions. If you could turn in Exhibit 1 under the
14 Mockelmann study of exhibits. I think that's how they're
15 organized. Very first page of that, you see Grant
16 Management System. So I'm looking at this, and it's got
17 the applicant, you know, that's Fremont 38, the
18 application's for what the grant is. The cycle says
19 original application and the date generated and who it was
20 generated by. Can you tell me what that means to you, as
21 a person who is now working or in charge of that program?
22 And I guess, you know, starting what does the
23 original application mean under the cycle; the date
24 generated, what's that tell you; and maybe you can tell me
25 who that came from.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 247
1 A. So it says it's the original application, so
2 that would be the first thing, not an amendment, and it
3 says September 29, 8:02 and submitted by John Law.
4 Q. Mr. Chairman. Original application, so that's
5 the first time that came from Fremont 38 to the Department
6 of Education; is that right?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Mr. Chairman, I might be able to ask that
9 question better. Is that the first time it was put into
10 the system?
11 A. Well, I didn't get it into my box until
12 September 30th.
13 Q. Mr. Chairman. That's fine.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. I'm not worried about when you received it. I
16 want to know when it went out. I want to know when it
17 left Arapahoe. So -- so it's telling me it was generated
18 8:00 in the evening of the 29th. And does this give me an
19 indication that that's the first time that left Fremont
20 38? I'm still having a difficult time with this.
21 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Ms. VanDeWege.
22 A. Mr. Chairman. I don't know what to say about
23 that. I got -- I got it in on the 30th when it was due,
24 and I didn't receive that, so...
25 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Mr. Chairman. Does
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 248
1 this printout come with every SIG grant?
2 A. What I can go back and access now is the grant
3 history, so I can look at when the first application came
4 in, and I can look and see the exact date I got each
5 amendment, and I have all that information. I'm not sure
6 what that is.
7 MR. CAVE: Referring to Exhibit 1.
8 Mockelmann Exhibit 1.
9 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: I don't think I can
10 ask any more questions about it, Mr. Chairman. I'm done
11 now.
12 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
13 Connolly.
14 REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY: Thank you.
15 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) Ms. VanDeWege, I
16 hate to ask you this, because, honestly, it's just creepy
17 to me, but I'm going -- so I'm sorry about that. But I'm
18 curious about the meeting that you went to with all of the
19 new employees and the -- the holding hands and the
20 stepping forward, and I'm just curious if you could share
21 with the committee, what were your perceptions at the
22 time, and then how did you think and feel about it
23 afterwards?
24 A. Mr. Chairman. It was very uncomfortable. It
25 was very uncomfortable. And I felt really weird later.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 249
1 And nobody had a choice in standing up, stepping forward.
2 And it was quite threatening and, in your words, creepy.
3 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
4 Connolly.
5 REPRESENTATIVECONNOLLY: Thanks.
6 Follow-up.
7 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY) What message did
8 you take away from that?
9 A. Mr. Chairman. It was just an undercurrent of
10 slightly threatening, we're watching you kind of idea.
11 REPRESENTATIVECONNOLLY: I'msorry.
12 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
13 Patton.
14 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PATTON) I'd like to
15 follow up on this time business. How was the grant
16 application -- what form was it sent? Was it sent by the
17 U.S. Mails? Was it sent by virtue of a fax?
18 A. Mr. Chairman. It's an online Grants Management
19 System so they open the program on their computer and fill
20 it out and send it electronically to us. So it was
21 received in my Grants Management mailbox.
22 Q. Wonderful world. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman,
23 follow-up. If -- if that is the case, doesn't the
24 originating document, when it's sent electronically, isn't
25 that dated and timed?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 250
1 A. Mr. Chairman. Yes. And I can go back and look
2 at when it was sent in and the amendments, and I don't
3 know what that exhibit is.
4 REPRESENTATIVEPATTON: So--thankyou,
5 Mr. Chairman. The mystery kind of remains, and being on
6 the committee with Representative -- with Representative
7 Greear, we just have a tough time crossing that time frame
8 as to a period of time when maybe something did happen
9 that -- that we would like to know about. So perhaps it's
10 irrelevant. I don't know.
11 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Mr.Speaker.
12 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Mr.Chairman.
13 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Ms. VanDeWege, you
14 responded to a question earlier, and you were asked do you
15 have a relationship with anybody on the committee. There
16 was a period of time on the floor, I said I've known these
17 people, I've known her, I trust her, I consider her my
18 friend. I think I even said I've known you all since law
19 school. How do you reconcile those two statements?
20 A. Mr. Chairman. I knew you were Pat's friend in
21 law school, and I've heard your name all these years when
22 you guys have worked together, but I don't think we've
23 seen each other socially or -- or I wouldn't have even
24 known you walking down the street, I'm sorry.
25 REPRESENTATIVEPATTON: Wewill--
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 251
1 A. I know you have a wonderful reputation.
2 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: He'samereshadow
3 of his former self.
4 Representative Throne.
5 REPRESENTATIVETHRONE: Thankyou,
6 Mr. Majority Floor Leader.
7 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) If we could, I want
8 to go back to the November 19th meeting. Did you feel
9 that the superintendent was demanding political loyalty
10 from her employees?
11 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Ms. VanDeWege.
12 A. Mr. Chairman. I took it more as work loyalty.
13 REPRESENTATIVETHRONE: Follow-up,
14 Mr. Chairman.
15 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) And with regard to
16 the trust, the loyalty to her, was that against the
17 legislature? Was she requesting that the employees be
18 loyal to her as opposed to whatever the legislature might
19 pass?
20 A. Mr. Chairman. I don't think I even thought that
21 far. I just thought of loyalty to her.
22 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
23 Zwonitzer.
24 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thank you,
25 Mr. Chairman.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 252
1 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) After this
2 event -- because I used to be a state employee, gossip
3 goes on, communications happen, and this is, I guess,
4 hearsay somewhat, but did you have conversations or
5 have -- know of conversations happening regarding this
6 incident within the week after of other employees having
7 similar sentiments to this meeting? Or in the inverse,
8 did other employees, to your knowledge, feel this was a
9 positive trust-building exercise? Did you get
10 communication through the office through other employees
11 one way or the other about this event besides your own
12 personal thoughts?
13 A. Mr. Chairman. I -- I don't know of one person
14 who felt good about that meeting.
15 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Mr. Chairman.
16 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
17 Zwonitzer.
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) So, to your
19 knowledge, there were other conversations over lunches or
20 a lot of people in the Department work in the same office,
21 if three people -- if there were conversations about this
22 meeting after it happened, then you believe other people
23 felt similar to your sentiments, without naming names, but
24 there was no opposite reaction when you were discussing
25 this meeting that some people felt it really was a good
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 253
1 exercise, it was a positive, uplifting experience? Do you
2 remember anybody saying that?
3 A. Mr. Chairman. I don't remember anybody saying
4 that.
5 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
6 Throne.
7 REPRESENTATIVETHRONE: Thankyou,
8 Mr. Majority Floor Leader.
9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Two quick questions
10 regarding the November 19th meeting just to confirm my
11 understanding. Was Mr. Shumway part of the circle?
12 A. Mr.Shumway--yes.
13 REPRESENTATIVETHRONE: Follow-up,
14 Mr. Chairman.
15 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Yes.
16 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE THRONE) Was Ms. Harper part
17 of the circle?
18 A. Mr.Chairman. Yes.
19 Q. Just to confirm, Mr. Lewis was not in the
20 circle, but was taking notes, was that your testimony?
21 A. Yes.
22 REPRESENTATIVETHRONE: Thankyou.
23 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Okay.
24 Representative Moniz.
25 REPRESENTATIVEMONIZ: Thankyou,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 254
1 Mr. Chairman.
2 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MONIZ) Ms. VanDeWege, you
3 kept referring throughout the testimony as "the
4 superintendent." There's some question over here as to
5 what superintendent are we talking about, the
6 superintendent of Fremont 38 or superintendent of public
7 instruction?
8 REPRESENTATIVEDAVISON: Justto--
9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE MONIZ) To send the grants.
10 You said there was nobody in that office, or -- so it just
11 kept floating around.
12 A. Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry for that confusion. I
13 meant the superintendent of Fremont 38.
14 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
15 Baker.
16 REPRESENTATIVEBAKER: Thankyou,
17 Mr. Chairman.
18 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BAKER) Ms. VanDeWege, I'd
19 just like a little clarification. You said earlier at
20 this November meeting that you felt like you had no
21 choice. Was that because of peer pressure or you felt
22 like you were going to -- your employment was at stake?
23 A. Mr. Chairman. It would not have been peer
24 pressure.
25 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 255
1 Baker.
2 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE BAKER) Ms. VanDeWege, so you
3 felt your employment was at stake if you didn't
4 participate?
5 A. Definitely.
6 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Mr.Speaker.
7 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) These are Superintendent
8 Hill's questions. The first nine I'm not going to ask
9 because they've already been asked. And there's two about
10 the November 12th staff meeting that asked would other
11 people agree, and I'm not going to ask those because
12 they're speculation. And then there's two questions, 18
13 and 19, which are appropriate for executive session.
14 So question 10, who made the calculations of the
15 tier calculations for the SIG 1003(g) grant? Was there an
16 error in the calculation made for the 2011 status
17 determination? Who made the error and who corrected it
18 and how was it corrected?
19 A. Mr. Chairman, those calculations were done by
20 the data department, and before -- way before I started.
21 I don't know.
22 Q. Okay. With regard to the Fremont 38 SIG grant,
23 has there been an audit by the U.S. Department of
24 Education, the U.S. Office of Inspector General or the
25 U.S. General Accounting Office determining the use of the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 256
1 SIG grants were used in any unallowable way?
2 A. Mr. Chairman, there has not been an audit to
3 this point.
4 Q. Did Randy Tucker represent to you that he had an
5 active involvement in the SIG application?
6 A. Mr.Chairman,yes.
7 Q. Was he representing the district?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was he considered -- was he the consolidated
10 grant manager for that district?
11 A. Mr. Chairman, I was under the impression at that
12 time that he was their technology person, not their grants
13 management person.
14 Q. Did David Holbrook train and supervise you
15 especially as it related to the receipt and process in the
16 School Improvement Grant applications?
17 A. Mr.Chairman,yes.
18 Q. Can you describe how he assisted you in
19 identifying and hiring grant readers in 2011?
20 A. Mr. Chairman, he told me a few people I can ask
21 ideas for grant readers.
22 Q. Can you describe how he assisted you in
23 organizing grant applications?
24 A. Mr. Chairman, this was the second cohort of SIG
25 grants, so the application was already put together and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 257
1 organized.
2 Q. Can you describe how each applicant's
3 determination of status is made with the U.S. Department
4 of Ed criteria for SIG applications?
5 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't understand the status part
6 of that question. Can you read it again?
7 Q. Can you describe how each applicant's
8 determination of status is made within the U.S. Department
9 of Education criteria for SIG applications?
10 A. That question doesn't make sense.
11 Q. Okay. Can you describe the creation of a waiver
12 letter related to the status of Fremont District 38 due to
13 inconsistent determinations made by Vince Meyer and his
14 supervision of the conditions placed upon the grantees in
15 the determination of the awards?
16 A. Mr. Chairman, I hate to ask you this, but could
17 you repeat it?
18 Q. As many times as you want. Can you describe the
19 creation of a waiver letter related to the status of
20 Fremont District 38 due to inconsistent determinations
21 made by Vince Meyer and his supervision of the conditions
22 placed upon the grantees in the determination of the
23 awards?
24 A. Mr. Chairman, I cannot describe the waiver
25 letter because I don't know about that. I know that
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 258
1 waiver is in the grant now, but I don't know how it got
2 there.
3 Q. Was David Holbrook's wife responsible for the
4 federal evaluation of SIG grants and was she a contractor
5 with the Department?
6 A. Mr. Chairman, she was an external evaluator for
7 the first award of SIG grants.
8 Q. How many of the persons hired by Fremont 38 for
9 the WYR project hired as paraprofessionals and paid by the
10 district as paraprofessionals? I know it's a sentence
11 fragment, but we're asking the superintendent to provide
12 questions under a rush.
13 A. Mr. Chairman, I understand. Can you repeat it
14 again?
15 Q. How many of the persons hired by Fremont 38 for
16 the WYR project were hired as paraprofessionals and paid
17 by the district as paraprofessionals?
18 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know that.
19 Q. Was the WYR project started prior to the
20 submission of the SIG application?
21 A. Mr. Chairman, I believe, yes.
22 Q. Was the expected use of the SIG funding to
23 address future programs such as WYR or other
24 interventions?
25 A. Mr. Chairman, one more time.
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1 Q. Was the WYR project started prior to the
2 submission of the SIG application -- wait, I asked that
3 one.
4 Was the expected use of the School Improvement
5 Grant funding to address future programs such as WYR or
6 other interventions?
7 A. Mr. Chairman, in the original grant application
8 all of the money was in the narrative box for WYR.
9 Q. Are you related to anyone named Holbrook?
10 A. My -- Mr. Chairman, my sister-in-law works for
11 the Department, and her last name is Holbrook.
12 Q. Okay. Is that person also related to David
13 Holbrook?
14 A. Mr.Chairman,yes.
15 Q. How?
16 A. She is his brother-in-law (sic).
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. We work in different departments.
19 Q. Did you reveal these connections to anyone while
20 you were interviewing for your position at the Wyoming
21 Department of Education?
22 A. Mr. Chairman, I revealed it before my interview
23 and during my interview.
24 Q. Who was your supervisor at WDE at the time the
25 SIG application by Fremont 38?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 260
1 A. Mr. Chairman, David Holbrook.
2 Q. Did the WDE under Superintendent Hill develop an
3 external accountability model?
4 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know.
5 Q. Were you a part of the team that developed that
6 model?
7 A. Mr. Chairman, no.
8 Q. Were you a part of the team that demonstrated
9 the model to various members of districts in the public
10 during the fall of 2012?
11 A. Mr. Chairman, no.
12 Q. How do you explain the enormous effort made to
13 develop a model if the superintendent was determined not
14 to implement accountability?
15 A. Mr. Chairman, I don't know about the enormous
16 effort.
17 Q. Were you present at a meeting at the legislative
18 accountability -- legislative committee on accountability
19 where Ruth Ann Sommers testified that the WDE met every
20 deadline for the Wyoming Accountability and Education
21 Act?
22 A. Mr. Chairman, I was not at that meeting.
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: The next two questions are
24 for executive session. Would everybody who's not an
25 executive session person leave briefly so that we can ask
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1 these questions.
2 (Pages 262 through 263 are
3 confidential and sealed in a separate
4 transcript.)
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1 (The following occurred in
2 open session.)
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We're back on the record.
4 Counsel and client, were you here for the executive session
5 advisement?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 MR. CAVE: Yes, we were both in attendance.
8 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, I cannot hear.
9 MR. OBRECHT: Say it again, Mr. Chairman.
10 Your microphone was off.
11 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Mr. Chairman. May I
12 ask a question? I am curious as to why the two questions
13 that were asked in executive session were required to go
14 into executive session.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Because I believed them to
16 be personnel matters.
17 And, Mr. Cave, did you -- I didn't -- I guess I
18 didn't have a microphone on. I didn't -- did your client
19 hear the executive session advisement?
20 MR. CAVE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we both heard
21 the executive session advisement you read earlier, and we
22 agreed it does not need to be read for our benefit.
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: And it still applies to
24 everybody else as well.
25 Thank you, Ms. VanDeWege. We appreciate you
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 265
1 coming here and spending the day with us, and thank you for
2 your testimony.
3 Mr. Salzburg or Mr. Jarosh, call your next
4 witness, please.
5 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, the next witness
6 is Jonathan Braack, B-r-a-a-c-k.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Braack, did you get
8 the advisement of all witnesses that were subpoenaed to
9 attend this matter?
10 THE WITNESS: Would you mind refreshing me,
11 Mr. Chairman?
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: It says the testimony you
13 are about to give will be included in the committee's
14 investigation into issues relating to the budgetary and
15 administrative activities within the Wyoming Department of
16 Education, WDE, and the Office of the Superintendent of
17 Public Instruction, OSPI. The information you provide may
18 not remain confidential and could be used in further
19 legislative, executive or judicial branch proceedings.
20 You have the right to appear before this body
21 with legal counsel. You also have the right to assert any
22 privilege against answering a question recognized by the
23 United States Constitution and the Constitution of the
24 State of Wyoming. Do you understand that advisement?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 266
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
2 THE WITNESS: I do not, Mr. Chairman.
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you raise and raise
4 your right hand.
5 (Witness sworn.)
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Salzburg.
7 MR. SALZBURG: Mr. Jarosh.
8 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I'm sorry. Mr. Jarosh,
10 it's late in the afternoon, and my memory is apparently
11 shorter.
12 MR. SALZBURG: So am I. He's not.
13 JONATHANBRAACK,
14 called as a witness on behalf of the Select Investigative
15 Committee, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
16 EXAMINATION
17 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) Mr. Braack, will you state your
18 full name, please.
19 A. Jonathan Edward Braack.
20 Q. Mr. Braack, was there a time when you were the
21 superintendent for Fremont County School District Number
22 38?
23 A. Mr. Chairman. Yes, there was.
24 Q. And when was that?
25 A. That was from January 9th, 2012 until June
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 267
1 of 2013.
2 Q. Will you describe the circumstances that led to
3 you going to work for Fremont School District 38?
4 A. Mr. Chairman. For several years I've been very
5 interested in becoming a superintendent in the state of
6 Wyoming, having worked in Idaho as administrator for some
7 years. And I saw the opportunity midyear the posting for
8 superintendency in Fremont 38. I contacted them, had a
9 phone interview with the board, and they requested a
10 follow-up interview in person. And I had that on
11 December 27th, on campus in Arapahoe, 2011.
12 Q. What schools are within Fremont 38?
13 A. Arapahoe Elementary, Middle School and Arapahoe
14 Charter High School.
15 Q. Is it true that you instituted or were part of
16 some kind of turnaround model when you arrived at the
17 school district?
18 A. Mr. Chairman. That is correct. I did institute
19 a turnaround model.
20 Q. And can you explain to the committee what a
21 turnaround model is?
22 A. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, the
23 turnaround model, in my estimation, was born as a result
24 of No Child Left Behind, because there are measures in No
25 Child Left Behind that are very specific, as we know,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 268
1 about how to improve failing schools and districts. So
2 having a working knowledge of some turnaround concepts and
3 strategem, I instituted a turnaround model that was
4 specific to the district after having spent some weeks
5 there doing my own needs assessment of systems that were
6 in need of improvement, curriculum that wasn't aligned,
7 collaboration process, the use of data, improving
8 structural strategies, parent involvement.
9 So to give you an idea of the turnaround model
10 that we used, very quickly, there were -- there were
11 basically 14 overarching principles that I looked at. One
12 of them basically was we wanted to see very quick results
13 very quickly. We wanted to see big achievement wins very
14 quickly. Ranging from that to making drastic departures
15 from practices that were not working and have been
16 evidenced for years that were not working, it was very
17 important to me that one of those turnaround efforts was
18 reestablishing the use of formative and summative
19 assessment data for student and teacher practice to make
20 decisions about how we will improve the -- the workings of
21 the district.
22 And another one that we instituted was we are
23 now going to have short-term, mid-term and long-term
24 goals. One of the biggest turnaround effort models that I
25 instituted was the immediate review and restructuring of
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1 the district's strategic plan. After having been there
2 several weeks, I made the conclusion, as the chief
3 instructional leader, that there were multiple system
4 pieces that were missing from the strategic plan, that
5 best practices has shown across the nation over the years,
6 that if we implement them, then we will see those big wins
7 quickly.
8 So it took birth also from the notion of the SIG
9 grant of a transformation model. We looked heavily at
10 Indastar, which Indastar each indicator gives best
11 practices verbiage on how to implement things. We looked
12 at change agents, what does it mean to be a change agent.
13 I inherited the role of change agent, and took that very
14 seriously. So blending all that together, we called it
15 our turnaround model.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Braack.
17 When did you first become aware that a program
18 called Wyoming Reads was being used in Fremont 38?
19 A. The first time I ever heard of what's being
20 called -- Mr. Chairman, excuse me. The first time I was
21 aware of that was on December 27, 2011. That was the date
22 that the Arapahoe board invited me to come there for an
23 interview. And when I asked what time a few days before,
24 the board chair said, "Well, we have a special -- a
25 working -- a board work session with the WDE, so you might
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 270
1 want to come and watch and listen to that."
2 I had no idea what they were discussing, but I
3 thought, you know, if I'm going to get involved here and
4 make a good impression, I need to see what some of the
5 topics are. That was the first time I heard of Wyoming
6 Reads.
7 Q. And what did you learn about Wyoming Reads at
8 that work session or that meeting?
9 A. Mr. Chairman. If memory serves, the topic was
10 basically discussing some fine-tuning of a Memorandum of
11 Understanding with the school board. If memory serves, it
12 was talking about some specifics about the WYR program and
13 its progress, and I don't remember the specifics, but it
14 had to do with that.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mr. Braack, let me
16 interrupt. When you're being questioned by counsel, you
17 don't need to go through me. It's only when members of the
18 committee are asking questions. And that's just for
19 organizational purposes so that we have a clear record. So
20 if you would just feel free to talk to Mr. Jarosh.
21 THE WITNESS: So you won't take offense if
22 I turn and look over here?
23 MR. JAROSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
25 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) When did you officially start
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1 with Fremont School District Number 38?
2 A. My first date of employment with Fremont 38 was
3 Monday, January 9, 2012.
4 Q. What did you learn with respect to the
5 implementation of the WYR program once you started with
6 the school district?
7 A. My answer to that question, I need to give some
8 context, if I could.
9 Q. Pleasedo.
10 A. When I started there, I inherited lots of
11 different issues that were happening in the district.
12 It's been referenced multiple times today that there had
13 not been a superintendent since I believe early October.
14 So for about three months there was no superintendent.
15 What they did in the interim is they organized
16 the administration team in the district into an interim
17 leadership team. And when that happened, lots of things
18 fell by the wayside. So one of my first sets of eyes went
19 on what is the district working with, what are the
20 different programs here, looking at systems.
21 Within the first week of being there, I became
22 educated pretty quickly on WYR, mainly because the WYR
23 staff, Joan and June (sic), they were very vigilant and
24 helpful, cordial. They wanted to meet and talk and
25 explain what they're doing. Here's what WYR is,
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1 Mr. Braack, and here's what we're -- so it was with those
2 ladies, and then subsequently meeting the consultants that
3 first week or two, that was when I really had a -- was
4 really introduced to what it was beyond what I understood
5 in that board meeting on December 27th.
6 Q. Please explain to the committee, then, how your
7 understanding of the WYR program evolved during your time
8 with the district.
9 A. My understanding of how it evolved came from
10 mainly secondhand information that I had gathered through
11 my own investigation of needs assessment. I asked
12 questions like what is the purpose of WYR? What is its
13 role? I asked a couple of administrators who had been
14 there all year if they would give me a perspective on WYR
15 and what its role and purpose is.
16 My understanding grew. I came to know more
17 about it as I met with Jane and Joan, and then went over
18 and toured the program, just to get an idea and get my
19 eyes on what it was and how it was working. So between
20 the secondhand observation and assessment of others and
21 being there firsthand, just watching and seeing and kind
22 of learning it.
23 Q. Did you come to understand how the program was
24 funded in Fremont 38?
25 A. Yes. My first recollection of understanding how
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 273
1 WYR was funded was there was a brief conversation that I
2 remember with Mr. John Law, because he was going through a
3 laundry list of all things funding for the district. It
4 became more in-depth, though, when state coaches came on
5 site to start offering their assistance in helping me put
6 things together.
7 SoIwouldsayasfarasthefunding--and
8 then -- then not -- Mr. Law and I mutually agreed that
9 he would leave. And after he left, we brought on
10 Mr. Dan Hudson as an interim business manager. He sat me
11 down and gave me his understanding of how WYR was being
12 funded.
13 Q. And what was the understanding that you
14 developed from that conversation?
15 A. Both he and Dr. Mockelmann and her associate,
16 Joe Baker, had shown me this -- the SIG document. And
17 I -- and I really learned of the SIG grant, its presence
18 and its role, after Dr. Mockelmann come on site, because
19 she wanted to help me move forward and understand my
20 responsibilities with implementing a SIG grant.
21 Q. I believe you were here for some testimony
22 earlier with respect to the SIG grant being amended or
23 amended application being submitted sometime in February.
24 Were you a part of that process?
25 A. Februaryof2012?
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1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Yes,Iwas.
3 Q. Describe your involvement or your role with
4 respect to that.
5 A. The first thing I remember seeing was a SIG
6 grant, and that virtually had nothing that had been done
7 for the 2011-'12 school year. When I say that, I'm
8 speaking in terms of district level. So at that time my
9 knowledge of what happened at the WDE level was
10 nonexistent. And after Dr. Mockelmann explained to me the
11 SIG grant is here because the school district and the
12 schools qualify for it under these reasons, we need to
13 look at the best way to implement it so that we can start
14 building a strategic plan. She and I discussed at length
15 I wanted to see a strategic plan in place extremely
16 quickly, and one that was focused on those big changes and
17 those big wins.
18 So with that said, my first eyes on the SIG
19 grant was anything that happened post anything they
20 discussed to date. And I remember specifically saying to
21 Mr. -- Mr. Hudson and Dr. Mockelmann, "It looks like the
22 entirety of the WYR program is being funded from the SIG
23 grant; is that correct?" They said, "That's what it looks
24 like." And I said, "Is there any other money that we have
25 to use -- is the State providing any other funding for
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 275
1 WYR?" Because it was now January, February of the school
2 year, and I do not believe that any money had been drawn
3 down from the SIG to reimburse from the general fund. So
4 that was a concern for me. As superintendent you also
5 are last accountable for funds. So anything that we had
6 paid for WYR for consultants, contracts, benefits,
7 textbooks had all come from the general fund of the
8 district at that point.
9 So at that point I wanted to get that in place
10 so we can start drawing down and reimbursing the general
11 fund. I remember specifically seeing -- and I believe I
12 saw that document here -- the majority of the money, at
13 least for the remainder of 2011-'12, had only been
14 identified as going to the WYR program.
15 Not having a complete understanding of WYR at
16 that point, but looking broader on the different needs
17 that we can fund in the district with the SIG grant, I
18 immediately told Joy and Dan Hudson, "If you guys will
19 support me, I want to start extrapolating -- earmarking
20 those funds in a broader area." So at that point --
21 that's what I remember, in general.
22 Q. Was there an application to amend the SIG grant
23 that you helped submit or that you submitted in February
24 of 2012?
25 A. There was an application, and Dr. Mockelmann
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1 helped me do that. I was forwarded contacts of kind of
2 what we needed when we saw things like we need a math
3 coach to instruct teachers in how to use math data and how
4 to teach math. Federal programs director, we saw some
5 needed curriculum changes that needed to happen. So, yes,
6 that was part of that process. And by that submission
7 date, February, we felt pretty good that we had identified
8 how to use the SIG grant, at least for the rest of the
9 school year.
10 And we even invited a couple of board members to
11 sit in on it and get their insight on what do you want to
12 see this grant used for. So there came a couple extra
13 positions that were kind of in context of what they saw
14 their kids in the district needed, and we moved forward
15 with that and started to realign and reassign those monies
16 for the different line items in the SIG, then we did
17 submit it.
18 Q. All right. So that the application that you
19 submitted to amend the SIG asked that some of the grant
20 funds be reallocated to things other than the WYR program?
21 A. That is correct. We did -- we did include under
22 my directive to Dan Hudson to keep the amount of money
23 that estimated we would need to fund WYR for the rest of
24 the year. And my explicit reason for that is we saw
25 another funding source other than general fund or
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1 reserves. So as -- when I came on there as Sup, what I
2 understood was, is that the WDE expected us to use the SIG
3 grant at that point to fund WYR. So that's what I did.
4 Q. During the course of that first semester while
5 you were with the school district, did you begin to reach
6 any conclusions with respect to the efficacy of the WYR
7 program in the district?
8 A. Yes, I did. And I drew several conclusions.
9 And by that time I had gotten a little feel for the
10 district, and I do try hard not to make subjective
11 opinions on things without having some evidence. So after
12 having been there a while, one of the -- one of the
13 positive things I saw that -- that WYR did was in context
14 of the one-on-one with the tutor and the student, it was a
15 phenomenal program. It worked very well, very well.
16 Something else I saw, and -- I heard and saw
17 myself, had reported to me, was that the children
18 generally enjoyed it, and they really enjoyed that
19 one-on-one reading, that intensive reading process.
20 A conclusion I drew on the other side of it was
21 when I come into the district, one of the things that we
22 put on our strategic plan was to implement a response to
23 intervention approach, RTI approach, and specifically for
24 a struggling district. And I noticed very quickly,
25 looking through that lens, trying to get the district set
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 278
1 up for RTI, was that, in my opinion, while a very good
2 one, WYR, in my opinion, was a Tier III intervention.
3 Intensive, typically one-on-one intervention, does not
4 take place in the classroom. It's typically with one
5 student. There's different opinions on what RTI is for
6 every school in America, all in all.
7 And with that said, my next question was, even
8 to the WYR staff, what type of formative data goes back to
9 the classroom teachers, the core Tier I teacher, and how
10 often? And if memory serves, nothing had really ever gone
11 back to the classroom teachers. From an RTI perspective,
12 that concerned me, because in a typical RTI Tier III
13 one-on-one intensive intervention, one of the most
14 important pieces is that there's a collaboration between
15 the people who give that intervention and the core
16 teacher. That was the first concern I had.
17 That was on the -- the -- the boilerplate, the
18 hot plate, because I had multiple things on the hot plate.
19 So I never really addressed that the rest of the year.
20 But that was another concern I had.
21 Another concern I had is I didn't have any real
22 access to any living data myself, as the Sup, of how it
23 was going. That there was wasn't -- I was told it was in
24 development.
25 Now, Jane and Joan did meet with me I remember
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 279
1 at least once during that last semester and gave me an
2 update with some -- it was -- I was informed by data, but
3 there was never really anything, at least presented to me,
4 that was any more formal than that. So that was a concern
5 as well, especially in our system of thinking data drives
6 everything we do, working towards that thinking. So that
7 was another concern I had.
8 Another concern I had was when -- a conclusion I
9 had drawn is there might be some implementation gaps with
10 WYR -- was when the WYR staff, led by June (sic) and Joan,
11 asked to meet with me immediately, within the first two
12 weeks, and said that there was some discrepancies in how
13 they were being paid. I remember some of them said they
14 hadn't been paid at all yet. I remember some said they
15 were not getting as much as they had been promised. I
16 learned very quickly after that, after investigation, that
17 at that point it was the board who had said that the
18 district will decide how much to pay them.
19 So I took that back to the board and we did some
20 work, and the board came up with what they figured they --
21 they'd agreed to, I think, if memory serves, in the MOU to
22 pay them hourly or pay them as a contract, and we put that
23 in place and we got that going. So that was a concern as
24 well.
25 Q. Did you have any conversations with Kevin Lewis
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1 with respect to your desire to have data related to the
2 WYR program?
3 A. Yes. My first real conversation with Mr. Lewis
4 happened towards the end of the semester, May or so. And
5 the conversation was something like this, "Kevin, the
6 board is asking me for conclusive data on how WYR has
7 gone. They want to know if it's been effective. They've
8 been talking about it every single month since January,
9 and I'd also like to know," and I asked him what data
10 exists.
11 And about that time I learned that
12 Superintendent Hill and some of her staff were coming to
13 the elementary/middle school cafeteria to do a WYR
14 celebration. And the empirical fact is there was some
15 celebrations to have. Some of our kiddos made some
16 impressive gains. They had that celebration. There were
17 parents and students who were asked to give testimonials,
18 and it was celebratory. And then after that, it just
19 seemed like it ended. It was left in our hands and lap to
20 decide what to do with it.
21 So I had several questions. How are we going to
22 be funded? What does the funding mechanism for WYR next
23 year look like? My next question was I have not received
24 an end-of-year report or summary on WYR for myself to look
25 at, and then also to present to the board, and it's
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1 getting -- it's getting to be the summertime, and I -- I
2 am clueless about the data. I haven't seen any data.
3 I remember specifically saying to him what I'd
4 like to see is how the students were chosen back in the
5 fall, and then summatively, looking over the course of the
6 year, all in all what kind of growth there was. And I
7 needed to see that, and that had not been given to me at
8 that time. So that concerned me.
9 So in that conversation I said, "Kevin, I'd
10 really like you to come up to Fremont 38 at our next board
11 meeting and have a summary of the program ready, and also
12 have a conclusive data that shows beginning to end of year
13 growth or lack thereof."
14 Q. And how did Mr. Lewis respond?
15 A. All in all he was pretty amicable to that. I
16 remember sensing some frustration with him that I had made
17 those requests. And any reason he was frustrated
18 specifically would be conjecture on my part to speculate
19 on that, but I know there was some frustration there. He
20 did come up and he did make a presentation to the board.
21 I believe it was in a June board meeting.
22 Q. Did there come a point in time when Fremont 38
23 made the decision to discontinue use of WYR?
24 A. There did come a point in time, and in my
25 estimation, the board -- the board made the decision to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 282
1 discontinue it upon my recommendation.
2 Q. And will you explain what your recommendation
3 was?
4 A. Yes, what I took to them in the summer was based
5 on the fact that in that time, the State Department
6 basically told me there was not going to be any funding
7 from the State to do that. What I was told is there would
8 be some -- it was either some funds or services provided
9 where the State would help and provide help, would be if
10 we wanted to get some more tutors, they would provide some
11 training for those tutors. And if memory serves, it was
12 over WEN telephone conferencing kind of training, so that
13 was the service that was offered.
14 There was no real additional dollars offered
15 other than maybe looking at amending the SIG grant again.
16 So the recommendation I gave the board was this: Based on
17 the fact that sustainability and building capacity for it
18 is very difficult with the funds we have, and based on the
19 fact that I have some concerns about its implementation at
20 the district level, we're going to have to build capacity
21 there, hire additional staff on our own dollar. And
22 looking at the -- it was kind of moving -- moving the
23 district in a direction that if we were -- I said several
24 times to the board, "If we're going to keep it, my
25 recommendation would be that it become a concrete official
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1 Tier III intervention in our RTI program, and there's
2 direct connection and collaboration with the PLCs that we
3 have implemented."
4 But all in all, based on the lack of funding
5 alone and how we're going to staff that and based on
6 looking at what reading deficiencies our kids still had
7 K-8, my overall recommendation was we not continue it.
8 Q. And was your -- I think you testified your
9 recommendation was accepted and the district discontinued
10 the program?
11 A. That'scorrect.
12 Q. Was that effective for the 2012-2013 school
13 year?
14 A. That'scorrect.
15 Q. Did the decision to discontinue the WYR program
16 in Fremont 38 have any impact on the SIG grant -- the
17 amount of the SIG grant the district received?
18 A. To be honest, I don't remember specifically if
19 it did or didn't, because by that time we had -- we had --
20 we had amended the grant for '12-'13, and, if memory
21 serves, had approved for the needs that we saw. And I
22 mentioned them earlier, which were driven by our then
23 completed strategic plan, purchasing math curriculum,
24 intensive training on that math curriculum, hiring several
25 key positions as part of the structural support model. So
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1 that money had been basically disbursed other places.
2 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, those are all the
3 prepared questions I have. I will, with your permission,
4 now ask the revised list of general questions that
5 Superintendent Hill submitted.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: There's also some
7 supplementary questions attached to the original list -- or
8 some specific questions for Mr. Braack attached to the
9 initial supplementary questions list, if you'd ask those as
10 well.
11 MR. JAROSH: Yes, sir, Mr. Speaker.
12 Q. (BY MR. JAROSH) Mr. Braack, are you represented
13 by counsel in this matter?
14 A. No, I'm not.
15 Q. Have you ever testified under oath?
16 A. I have never testified under oath.
17 Q. Are you familiar with the penalties for perjury
18 and that you are subject to those penalties should you
19 provide false testimony?
20 A. Yes, I am.
21 Q. Did you speak with anyone prior to today about
22 your testimony before this committee, including
23 Mr. Jarosh, Mr. Salzburg, or representatives from their
24 firms, members of the legislature, other staff or
25 employees of the State, such as the governor's office or
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 285
1 the Wyoming Department of Education?
2 A. Among that list, the only person I have visited
3 with prior to this testimony is Mr. Jarosh over several
4 phone calls.
5 Q. All right. When did you speak with me over the
6 telephone?
7 A. We spoke over the phone, if memory serves, the
8 week before Christmas last month for about 45 minutes.
9 Q. And you answered my next question. Thank you.
10 Please describe in detail that first 45-minute
11 telephone conversation that you just testified about.
12 A. In that conversation you introduced yourself as
13 legal counsel representing and working with this
14 investigative committee, and that I had been suggested and
15 selected as someone to interview because of my role in
16 District 38, because I had worked with the SIG grant, and
17 I had a working knowledge, exposure to WYR.
18 Mr. Jarosh then proceeded to ask if he could ask
19 me some questions about it. I said I would be happy to do
20 that. He then asked me basically to describe my
21 experience with it. At that point he thanked me, and then
22 in his next contact with me, several days later, had
23 drafted some questions based on the interview answers that
24 I had given and had informed me that, based on what I had
25 told him, I was being called as a witness in this
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1 committee, and that I would be subpoenaed and expected to
2 be here today.
3 Q. Do you remember how -- how long that second
4 telephone conversation lasted?
5 A. I don't remember being more than 10 or 15
6 minutes.
7 Q. Did I give you any instructions during either of
8 the telephone calls?
9 A. What I remember, this being a couple weeks ago,
10 you basically instructed me on how today would go. And
11 you told me that, you know, I was not necessarily needing
12 legal counsel, but that I would be subpoenaed, and that I
13 would be required to be there. And my memory was you just
14 gave me basic general instructions on how this day would
15 go, what would be expected of me.
16 Q. Did I or any of my representatives instruct you
17 that your testimony must be truthful and that it must be
18 based on personal knowledge or observation and it could
19 not be based on speculation, conjecture or opinion?
20 A. Yes, I remember you stating that this is under
21 oath, and I'm under that requirement.
22 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
23 relating to your testimony?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know if such evidence exists?
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1 A. I do not.
2 Q. All right. The next question asks about
3 documents or evidence that you may or may not have
4 provided during the MacPherson investigation, but let me
5 ask you a preliminary question that's probably intended to
6 be asked, and that is: Were you interviewed as part of
7 Catherine MacPherson's investigation?
8 A. No,Iwasnot.
9 Q. All right. Have you provided or did you provide
10 any documents or evidence to Ms. MacPherson as a part of
11 her investigation?
12 A. Ididnot.
13 Q. And so if I ask you if you had -- well, let me
14 ask you this: Did you review Ms. MacPherson's report?
15 A. To my knowledge, the first that I really heard
16 of this MacPherson report is today, in previous testimony.
17 Q. These are some follow-up questions that
18 Superintendent Hill submitted. I'm sorry, these are still
19 some of the questions that she submitted prior to your
20 testimony today. What is your current employment status?
21 A. My current employment status is I was hired as
22 superintendent in Lusk, in Niobrara County. And my first
23 day of employment was July 1st. And I worked there for
24 about five months. And recently the board and I
25 congenially agreed to part ways, and we drafted a
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 288
1 separation agreement and separated on congenial terms.
2 Q. Have you discussed with any Wyoming Department
3 of Education employees possible employment with the
4 Department of Education?
5 A. No. The only thing close to that would be
6 getting advice from someone not even involved in WDE that
7 might look at what openings are at WDE right now, which I
8 haven't even followed up on that.
9 Q. You've already answered -- you almost answered
10 this question, so let me ask it to be fair to the
11 superintendent. As superintendent of Fremont 38, did you
12 make the decision to discontinue after May of 2012 the
13 one-on-one tutoring often referred to as WYR?
14 A. Based on my testimony earlier, I made the
15 ultimate recommendation. With that said, the board made
16 it very clear to me that they would be the ones to make
17 the final decision about whether WYR was going to exist or
18 not, but they asked for my evidence either way. They made
19 the ultimate decision.
20 Q. How did district reading scores perform on 2013
21 PAWS?
22 A. Several grades showed improvements.
23 Q. Was there substantial growth or did the district
24 experience mixed results?
25 A. There was substantial growth in a couple
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 289
1 specific grades, and then there was mixed results
2 otherwise.
3 Q. Did you encourage or support a one-on-one
4 torturing program in your next position as superintendent
5 in Niobrara 1, and did you support the use of the WYR
6 materials for that program?
7 A. My new high school principal in Niobrara 1 came
8 to me and said my assessment of the high school reading --
9 looking at some data and looking at his exposure to WYR in
10 the past in one of his previous districts that he was
11 principal, he said, "I'd really like to implement this
12 program. I've used it. It's worked well." I had a
13 previous experience with it. There seemed to be little or
14 no cost associated with it. He actually worked out the
15 whole situation and gave me a very data-focused approach
16 to having that.
17 We saw before the summer was over, this last
18 summer of '13, that there was some need to get some of the
19 high school students some pretty intensive reading
20 revision. By high school we were really concerned about
21 that. So yes, I did authorize that after he gave me a
22 pretty intense way to implement that.
23 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Thankyou,Mr.Braack.
24 Mr. Chairman, those are all the preliminary
25 questions that were submitted by Superintendent Hill. I
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1 don't know if she's submitted questions during the course
2 of Mr. Braack's testimony or not, but those are all the
3 questions that I have.
4 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Committee questions
5 for Mr. Braack. Representative Davison.
6 REPRESENTATIVEDAVISON: Thankyou,
7 Mr. Chairman.
8 EXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
9 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE DAVISON) I guess a question
10 I have is when you -- when you did decide to discontinue
11 the program, it was mostly because of the money, not
12 because of the program itself in Fremont?
13 A. Mr. Chairman. That is correct. In all honesty,
14 there were parts of the program itself, the
15 implementation, the process of working with the kids that
16 I -- that I had supported and could -- it was mainly
17 looking at the funding. It was about that time that we in
18 the district started having a discussion of funding cuts
19 are now hitting Wyoming. Where there was no real set
20 amount that was being offered outside of our district
21 funds, just in the end, I didn't feel comfortable with it.
22 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
23 Greear.
24 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Mr. Chairman.
25 Mr. Braack, I'm curious -- a couple of things I want to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 291
1 follow up on some earlier testimony.
2 First, in terms of when you got Fremont 38,
3 program had already been going, did you look at the -- at
4 the qualification of the tutors' background checks,
5 what -- again, just what their qualifications were to act
6 in that capacity?
7 A. Yes, I -- I didn't look into it because I
8 intentionally wanted to know. I looked into it after
9 several people had said -- a couple of them said we see a
10 need for more tutors. I think one or two left, maybe. We
11 needed to expand the number of tutors, so that's when I
12 started looking at what are the qualifications. I didn't
13 get really involved in that.
14 If memory serves, I was comfortable with the
15 fact that it was -- as far as the hiring of the tutors,
16 that seemed self-sustained by the people who were there on
17 site doing it. My knowledge of it was so little. My only
18 real involvement with that was making recommendations to
19 the board, who had on their own assumed the responsibility
20 to hire those people. I -- at that time I was not really
21 knowledgeable of what the requirements were for their --
22 for their hire.
23 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Mr. Chairman.
24 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
25 Greear.
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1 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) So who hired the
2 employees? Was it the -- the Department employees or
3 district supervisors? Who hired these tutors?
4 A. Memory serves, it was a conversation of Jane and
5 Joan and/or them -- well, one or the other or both, and at
6 the time the district curriculum director, Debbie
7 McCarthy. They had come to me and said we need to make
8 some -- do some interviews for WYR tutors, additional WYR
9 tutors to replace, and whatnot. I said, "That would be
10 fine. Would you guys take care of that and make your
11 recommendations to me." And seeing the board wanted to
12 hire them, I made the recommendation to the board.
13 REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR: Mr. Chairman.
14 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
15 Greear.
16 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) And then in terms
17 of -- I couldn't get this out of material I reviewed, but
18 what students were involved in this program? Was it all
19 of them in certain grades or some students in certain
20 grades, or who was involved in the program?
21 A. As far as the student body, Mr. Representative?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. When I started there in January, what I -- what
24 I had already seen is that the kids had been selected from
25 multiple grades. I remember asking the question what --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 293
1 what data was used, and how were they determined? What I
2 was told by several people was that -- that what I saw for
3 myself, looking at and reading data, was that there were
4 students that were selected from different types of
5 reading proficiencies throughout the grades. There were
6 students who were being WYR'd who were low readers. There
7 were students who were being WYR'd who were actually
8 average or even higher readers, which also posed a
9 question in my mind. So there were students from multiple
10 grades with multiple reading proficiencies who were being
11 WYR'd at the time I got there.
12 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
13 Greear.
14 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE GREEAR) Mr. Chairman. You
15 may not know the answer to this. I'm just curious, what
16 percentage of a class -- how many students in a class were
17 engaged in the programs? 10 percent? 20? 30?
18 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Mr.Braack.
19 A. Yes, I'm thinking, Mr. Chairman. Kindergarten
20 through second grade at Arapahoe Elementary/Middle School,
21 there was four classes per grade, and then it goes three
22 and the two. Of those classes, if I were to estimate, I
23 think each individual teacher's class maybe, oh, 5 to 15.
24 I don't remember having a working knowledge of how many in
25 each class.
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1 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
2 Stubson.
3 REPRESENTATIVESTUBSON: Thankyou,
4 Mr. Chairman.
5 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON) Mr. Braack, just
6 another flavor on the question, do you have any idea total
7 number of kids impacted by the program?
8 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Stubson, in -- I
9 guess there's -- you know, evidence of implementation
10 would be that this percentage of kids were WYR'd.
11 Evidence of impact, I can answer the first one, but not
12 really the last one. And I'm basing both these questions
13 based on empirical data. A good number that I can't,
14 without conjecture, tell you the exact number. A good
15 portion of the students over the course of the year were
16 involved in WYR. Evidence of impact, for me, to this
17 date, is inconclusive for me either way.
18 Q. Mr. Chairman, follow-up on that last point. You
19 mentioned the request that Mr. Lewis come up and do a
20 presentation for you and the board --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- on -- but can you tell us a little bit --
23 what did he show? Did he have any data? Did you -- do
24 you have any data in hand that shows impact of the program
25 or can you describe a little bit about what his
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1 presentation was?
2 A. Mr. Chairman. Representative Stubson, yes, I
3 can. I remember him giving a PowerPoint or some kind of
4 electronic presentation that did have some graphs and
5 tables that were organized. In that presentation
6 Mr. Lewis did show -- whoever organized the data for that
7 meeting, for that presentation, they -- they showed growth
8 in different grades, and, you know, mixed results in
9 others. So he did give that presentation. And to my
10 knowledge, that was based on beginning-of-year and
11 end-of-year assessment.
12 Q. And, Mr. Chairman, I'm just trying to square --
13 you talked about you hadn't really seen data about the
14 program. I'm trying to square that with this
15 presentation. Did -- were you left with any data -- was
16 the board left with any data by which they could judge the
17 program?
18 A. If mem -- Mr. Chairman. Representative Stubson,
19 if memory serves, we did have copies and access to what
20 Mr. Lewis presented to us that evening.
21 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Mr. Chairman.
22 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
23 Patton.
24 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PATTON) I try to play the
25 numbers game. What was the school enrollment in the
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1 district? Elementary -- not secondary, but elementary
2 grades.
3 A. Both -- Mr. Chairman, Representative Patton, in
4 the '11-'12 school year, I was there the second half. So
5 if memory serves, K-8 was -- fluctuated between 370 and
6 390. And that was pretty sat -- pretty static. The next
7 year it fluctuated between 370, 390 K-8.
8 Q. Follow-up.
9 And then would we divide that by what age --
10 figure out about -- approximate population in the class,
11 in an age group class?
12 A. I think that would be a fair way, Mr. Chairman,
13 Representative Patton. I think that would be a fair way
14 to do that.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. You're welcome.
17 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Committee?
18 Mr. Speaker.
19 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Mr. Braack, these are
20 supplemental questions from the superintendent.
21 Were you aware -- or were you present as
22 superintendent of Fremont 38 when the SIG grant was made?
23 A. When it was originally made or when it was
24 abandoned after my tenure began?
25 Q. Answer them both.
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1 A. Both? I was not superintendent in the district
2 prior to January 9th, 2012. So anything that happened
3 with the SIG grant development I literally had no
4 involvement.
5 Q. Are you aware of the growth of Fremont 38
6 students in the 2011-'12 school year?
7 A. Yes,Iam.
8 Q. Did you know that based on subsequent years'
9 PAWS testing, fourth graders grew 40 percent in
10 proficiency, fifth graders grew 13 percent, sixth graders
11 grew 31 percent, and seventh graders grew 15 percent?
12 A. Mr. Chairman, without having the data from two
13 years ago in front of me, I am aware, still from memory,
14 that there was growth. And those grades sound about
15 right.
16 Q. To what do you attribute the growth of the
17 students of Fremont 38 in the 2011-'12 school year?
18 A. Mr. Chairman, to answer that question fairly,
19 are we referring to reading, are we referring to math,
20 science, socioeconomical, those types of things, or was it
21 just overall --
22 Q. I think probably the issue that's in front of us
23 is reading, because that's what WYR was aimed at.
24 A. Uh-huh. Mr. Chairman, would you repeat the
25 question?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 298
1 Q. Sure. To what do you attribute the growth of
2 students at Fremont 38 in the 2011-'12 school year?
3 A. Mr. Chairman, I attribute that to several
4 factors. I -- and I shared with the board this. As far
5 as WYR having an impact on reading the '11-'12 school
6 year, I think the evidence was there that it definitely
7 had an impact on reading. Especially with the one or
8 maybe two grades that I remember that had substantial
9 growth in reading.
10 My concern was that I didn't have anything
11 tangible that was connected back to core classroom reading
12 assessment. So for me to say that WYR had all the
13 influence on Arapahoe children's reading improvement, I
14 can't say that empirically because I don't have anything
15 to show that it was specifically that. But there was
16 growth. Because a good number of our kids were WYR'd, I
17 think it's safe to conclude it had a positive effect on
18 it.
19 I also attribute the tighter implementation of
20 the PLC process the remainder of the year that the
21 teachers adopted and started using. I attribute the
22 quality of teaching that happened that year. I attribute
23 the then principal's leadership role in that. She had
24 some ideas of how to get more focused on reading in the
25 core classroom. So I think there were several factors
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1 that went into that.
2 Q. When did the students take the PAWS test?
3 A. Mr. Chairman, let's see. Spring 2012. It was
4 March -- late March, early April.
5 Q. When you mentioned you have focused on school
6 turnaround, would you say you successfully turned around
7 Fremont 38?
8 A. That, Mr. Chairman, yes and no. Yes and no.
9 Yes, because for whatever reasons the district saw some
10 big wins very early. By early I mean the calendar year of
11 2012. And there were -- there was some big wins and some
12 improvements on multiple levels, not just student
13 achievement, but by what you would look at as a systems
14 approach, PLC implementations, getting a new math
15 curriculum implemented by the first day of school 2012-'13
16 school year, having several key instructional staff hired,
17 having some teachers -- some new teachers hired. We -- we
18 replaced, if memory serves, from January to August of that
19 year a little over 20 employees for a variety of reasons.
20 Some were replaced for issues, some were replaced because
21 one got married and moved. So in -- in short-term wins, I
22 think it was -- was successful.
23 I have to answer no to that because, you know,
24 turnaround theory, continuous improvement models, school
25 improvement focus will tell you that -- when you implement
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1 these best practices, you're looking at about three to
2 five years for things to really take root and show
3 sustainability. So short term, yes.
4 Long term, I was not there long enough to see
5 the system that I feel like we revised or implemented go
6 on. But I was only there 18 months.
7 Q. Do you have any examples where you were able to
8 turn around schools?
9 A. DoIhaveanyexamples?
10 Q. That'swhatitsays.
11 A. Is this referring previously to Fremont 38,
12 Mr. Chairman?
13 Q. I'm thinking in your career.
14 A. I worked in a -- my first year as a principal,
15 in about a 97 percent Latino poverty population in which
16 was in its fifth -- let's see, it was several years into
17 the school improvement and AYP issues. I was only there a
18 year because it was an interim position, but we started
19 looking at those types of turnaround pieces, supporting
20 PLC work, getting increased data working, those kind of
21 things.
22 I then worked for several years in a public
23 charter school in Idaho, which had had some issues
24 administratively, but in the core classroom things were
25 good, so we looked at some systems work there. That's
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1 when I entered into Fremont 38.
2 Q. Did Fremont 38 apply for payment from SIG funds
3 while you were superintendent?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you present when SIG funds were awarded?
6 A. Yes, I was.
7 Q. Were you aware of the terms of the SIG grant?
8 A. I was aware of the terms of the SIG grant as it
9 had been revised and submitted in February '12 on.
10 Q. Were the application of SIG funds and the
11 request for payment consistent with the SIG application
12 and award?
13 A. To my knowledge, yes, they were, based on the
14 revisions that we had made to the SIG and submitted
15 February '12, and based on the period of time that the
16 business office re -- requested the drawdown, that they
17 were aligned to that.
18 Q. When you moved to Niobrara County School
19 District 1, did you also endeavor to turn around the
20 district?
21 A. When I moved there, what I told the board and
22 started working with the administration team, which was
23 mostly new this last summer, was that there are some
24 really good areas of strength in the district, and there
25 was some areas for improvement that needed some immediate
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1 attention.
2 Q. Was WYR implemented while you were the
3 superintendent at Niobrara 1?
4 A. Mr. Chairman, that's correct. That was at the
5 Niobrara County High School.
6 Q. Were you aware of funding for WYR prior to your
7 arrival at Fremont 38?
8 A. The only -- no. No, I cannot accurately say,
9 Mr. Chairman, I was -- I was not in tune with or informed
10 on how WYR was funded until I had arrived there and
11 started working.
12 Q. Wasn't it funded with district reserves?
13 A. If memory serves, Mr. Chairman, before we
14 actually drew down the SIG grant to replace and to
15 reimburse any WYR funding, if memory serves, I believe the
16 district general fund had picked up that cost the several
17 months before I got there. Hence, the need to get the
18 general fund reimbursed. And if we had to use the SIG,
19 which we did, we needed to get that drawdown from the SIG
20 to start reimbursing our general fund, that is correct.
21 Q. Was the 2012 PAWS data available to Mr. Lewis,
22 the Wyoming Department of Education or Fremont 38 at the
23 June meeting where he requested hard data -- or where you
24 requested hard data? I'm sorry.
25 A. Mr. Chairman, that is a difficult question to
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1 answer, because during that particular year, PAWS data was
2 not available conclusively late into the summer.
3 And as an addendum to that comment, I was not
4 officially informed that the district had met AYP for the
5 first time to Safe Harbor officially until October
6 of 2012. So whatever PAWS data that was conclusively or
7 inconclusive that was available to Mr. Lewis, I don't
8 know, because all superintendents in the state would not
9 really report to our boards until at least late summer,
10 early fall of how kids had done on PAWS. So I was --
11 beyond that it would be speculation on what Mr. Lewis had
12 or didn't have.
13 Q. Was other data such as Jerry Johns assessment
14 provided at that meeting?
15 A. Mr. Chairman, I do not remember.
16 Q. Are you aware of the Fremont 38 PAWS performance
17 scores for 2013?
18 A. Mr. Chairman, since I moved on from that
19 district I have not made myself aware.
20 Q. Did other 2013 PAWS scores suggest that Fremont
21 38 proficiency largely plateaued after he withdrew WYR
22 training in June 2012?
23 A. Mr. Chairman, based on my previous answer, I
24 don't have any empirical evidence in front of me either
25 way. I have not researched that.
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1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you very much,
2 Mr. Braack. I appreciate you coming in and sharing part of
3 a day with us.
4 Rob.
5 MR. JAROSH: Mr. Speaker, I haven't asked
6 this of the other witnesses because they're all local, but
7 Mr. Braack traveled a great distance, and I guess I would
8 ask can he be released from his subpoena so he can return
9 home?
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Certainly. Any objection?
11 You're released from your subpoena as well.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay.
13 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Drive safely.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Be safe.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. So I find my
16 personal belongings at the gate?
17 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yeah, you're free.
18 THE WITNESS: That's a different kind of
19 release. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you
20 very much. I appreciate the opportunity to be here today.
21 SPEAKER LUBNAU: So members of the
22 committee, here's the road map that we'd like to do for
23 tonight, subject to your input, and that's to hear from
24 Sheryl Lain, Tiffany Dobler, and Kim Harper and then call
25 it an evening.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 305
1 We have another complicating factor that I wanted
2 the committee to think about, and that is that apparently
3 Superintendent Hill heard Representative Madden on KROE
4 radio where he said he expected to be finished by noon on
5 Wednesday. That wasn't my understanding of things, but the
6 superintendent has planned her gubernatorial kickoff
7 announcement for Newcastle on that day. I want you to
8 think about this overnight, but I'm going to be asking you
9 if we're not done by noon on Wednesday, do we keep going in
10 the superintendent's absence, considering all of the time
11 and expense that we have to go through?
12 The other thing that I'm going to ask you now,
13 that you don't have to consider overnight, is our rules
14 provide that committee money cannot be used to purchase
15 food for committees. The food that we get during the
16 session we pay for out of our courtesy funds where we all
17 write a check at the end of the year. That is not the case
18 for committee hearings.
19 So we have a couple options. Option number 1 is
20 that we just go without eating. Option number 2 is that we
21 all chip in for food and order ourselves some sort of meal.
22 Option number 3 is that we take a dinner break and then
23 reconvene at another time. What's your pleasure?
24 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Option 1.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I've got one definite no
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 306
1 on Option 1, and I've got two Options 1's over here. Do I
2 hear a motion? We'll just do it a legislative way.
3 REPRESENTATIVEMADDEN: ImoveOption1.
4 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Okay. Goodmove. Is
5 there a second?
6 REPRESENTATIVEGREEAR: Second.
7 SPEAKERLUBNAU: AnydiscussiononOption
8 1? Representative Throne.
9 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Mr. Chairman, I'll
10 survive, just you know, if I fall over, pick me up. But I
11 guess I do have some concern that the witnesses have also
12 been sitting here all day. I don't -- they might like a
13 brief break to get a snack before they're questioned.
14 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Thatwould--thatwould
15 be the next thing on my list of things after that, then.
16 So all in favor of Option 1, say aye.
17 REPRESENTATIVEBAKER: Aye.
18 REPRESENTATIVEBLIKRE: Aye.
19 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Aye.
20 REPRESENTATIVEDAVISON: Aye.
21 REPRESENTATIVEGREEAR: Aye.
22 REPRESENTATIVEMADDEN: Aye.
23 REPRESENTATIVEMONIZ: Aye.
24 REPRESENTATIVEPATTON: Aye.
25 REPRESENTATIVEPETROFF: Aye.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 307
1 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Aye.
2 REPRESENTATIVE WINTERS: Aye.
3 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Aye.
4 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Opposed? We'll keep on
5 trucking.
6 Now, that being said, we'll take a recess until
7 20 minutes until 6:00.
8 (Hearing proceedings recessed
9 5:21 p.m. to 5:40 p.m.)
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Ladies and gentlemen, it's
11 20 till 6:00. We're back on the record. I heard some
12 discussion about the ruling of the chair about how we were
13 going to proceed tonight. Rulings of the chair can be
14 appealed by a motion of the committee, should you be
15 disgruntled. Otherwise, we're proceeding right ahead.
16 That being said, Mr. Salzburg, call your next
17 witness.
18 MR. SALZBURG: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Lenhart
19 will be the next questioner.
20 MR. LENHART: We'll call Sheryl Lain.
21 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: We're not online
22 yet, Mr. Speaker.
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Let me know when you press
24 the submit button.
25 Miss Lane, did you receive the initial advisement
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 308
1 with your subpoena?
2 THE WITNESS: I did.
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you read it?
4 THE WITNESS: I did.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you understand it?
6 THE WITNESS: I hope so, at this hour.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
8 THE WITNESS: No, I do not.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you rise and raise
10 your right hand.
11 (Witness sworn.)
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you, Miss Lain.
13 Mr. Lenhart.
14 SHERYLLAIN,
15 called as a witness on behalf of the Select Investigative
16 Committee, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
17 EXAMINATION
18 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) Good evening.
19 A. I'm sorry, I didn't get your last name.
20 Q. It's Lenhart.
21 A. Hi.
22 Q. Good evening, Ms. Lain.
23 A. May I qualify, it's late and I've been here all
24 day. I have a handicapped husband at home. I'm afraid
25 I'm not going to be able to be as clear at this hour,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 309
1 which I think you want. I've just spoken with my
2 attorney, and he said, "Well, charge on, girl, if you want
3 to," but I just want to make that qualification. It's
4 been a long day, and I want to give you full and clear
5 answers. So I'm worried about this. I'm worried about
6 you, too, but I just needed to say that.
7 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Greear.
8 REPRESENTATIVEGREEAR: Mr.Chairman,I
9 don't want to take testimony from any witness that isn't
10 dealing with a full faculty and able to give us good
11 answers for this committee.
12 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Second.
13 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Okay. Well,allright.
14 Any objections to Miss Lain -- or Ms. Lain being excused
15 until tomorrow?
16 Hearing none, Miss Lain, you're excused until
17 tomorrow.
18 Counsel, call your next witness.
19 MR.SALZBURG: We'llcallTiffanyDobler.
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Dobler, I understand
21 you're home with a sick child, then you get to come with
22 us. Don't know which is worse.
23 THEWITNESS: Yeah,exactly.
24 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Didyougetyourinitial
25 advisement of rights with the subpoena?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 310
1 THEWITNESS: Idid.
2 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Didyouunderstandit?
3 THEWITNESS: Yes.
4 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Okay. Doyouhaveany
5 questions?
6 THEWITNESS:No.
7 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Wouldyoupleaseriseand
8 raise your right hand.
9 (Witnesssworn.)
10 TIFFANYDOBLER,
11 called as a witness on behalf of the Select Investigative
12 Committee, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
13 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Counsel.
14 EXAMINATION
15 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Would you please tell us your
16 name.
17 A. TiffanyDobler.
18 Q. And, Miss Dobler, you have just arrived here in
19 the hearing room, have you not?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Let me give you some brief guidelines about
22 testifying. First, you're entitled to understand any
23 question that's asked of you before you answer, so if I
24 ask you a question you don't understand, or anybody else
25 asks you a question you don't understand, please tell us
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 311
1 and we'll rephrase the question so we're confident you do
2 understand.
3 We have a court reporter taking down what is
4 said, and therefore, it's important to not talk over each
5 other. So I will try to -- please let me finish my
6 questions before you begin your answer, and I'll try to
7 remember to let you finish your answer before I ask the
8 next question.
9 Also, if a yes or no question is asked, please
10 answer aloud with yes or no rather than nodding or shaking
11 your head, or making a guttural noise like uh-huh or
12 huh-uh. If you forget to do that, I'll remind you, okay?
13 A. Thankyou.
14 Q. How are you currently employed?
15 A. I work at the Wyoming Department of Education
16 I'm the Special Programs Division Administrator.
17 Q. And is that essentially the special ed director?
18 A. Thatis,yes.
19 Q. Who is your predecessor in that position?
20 A. Peg Brown-Clark, now Monteith.
21 Q. How many staff members are in your division?
22 A. I believe 33, around that.
23 Q. Can you tell us your educational background?
24 A. Yes. I got my undergrad at the University of
25 Wyoming in elementary education. I then moved to Denver
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 312
1 and taught fifth grade and started working on my master'
2 degree in special education, moved up to Star Valley,
3 taught in Star Valley in the middle school primarily, also
4 in sixth grade, a little bit in preschool. Moved again to
5 Iowa, Dubuque, Iowa, where I taught at Clark University
6 and I taught preservice teachers that wanted to be special
7 education teachers. And then I came here.
8 Q. When did you return to Wyoming?
9 A. You've asked me that. So 2012, I believe.
10 Q. Anddidyoucome--
11 A. Augustof2012.
12 Q. I'm sorry. Did you come back to Wyoming to work
13 for the Wyoming Department of Education?
14 A. I did.
15 Q. And are you currently working on your doctorate?
16 A. I am currently working on my doctorate in
17 special education as well.
18 Q. Andatwhatcollege?
19 A. University of Northern Colorado, and I am very
20 close to being done, thank goodness.
21 Q. I'd like to discuss with you the use of federal
22 grant money during the time Superintendent Hill was the
23 head of the Wyoming Department of Education. So tell us,
24 please, what federal funds did you deal with as the
25 special ed director for the Department?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 313
1 A. Primarily I deal with two large grants. One is
2 the 6320 is what we call it. That's the Federal Special
3 Ed Grant Part B, so that ranges from kids that are 3 to 21
4 years of age. And then also the SPDG grant, which is the
5 State Personnel Development Grant, 6321.
6 Q. When you say "SPDG," are you actually
7 pronouncing S-P-D-G?
8 A. That'scorrect.
9 Q. All right. And Part B refers to Part B of what?
10 A. PartBofIDEA.
11 Q. WhatisIDEA?
12 A. Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.
13 Q. Is that a federal statute?
14 A. Thatis.
15 Q. And -- I'm sorry. Tell us what the SPDG grant
16 deals with.
17 A. The SPDG grant is State Personnel Development
18 Grant utilized to bring personnel development to districts
19 around special education.
20 Q. And do the Part B and SPDG grants come with some
21 federal limitations?
22 A. Absolutely. Yes, they do.
23 Q. What programs did Superintendent Hill's
24 administration want to fund with these federal grant
25 funds?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 314
1 A. The SpLit program, which was Special Education
2 Literacy.
3 Q. And tell us what the SpLit program was.
4 A. The SpLit program was a reading program, had
5 some writing in it as well. It was comprised of three
6 main topics, 3+8, writers workshop, and some Common Core.
7 Q. Okay. Andwhatis3+8?
8 A. 3+8, again, is a writing program or method. I
9 can't tell you every single thing, what each list stands
10 for, but 3 is the type of reading. So I believe it's
11 functional, expository, narrative. And then 8 of the
12 things that you would want to do within those texts so you
13 can understand them. So things like looking at plot for
14 narrative, things like that.
15 Q. Was the SpLit program in place when you came to
16 the Department?
17 A. Itwas,yes.
18 Q. And did your staff have any view with respect to
19 whether or not the SpLit program should be funded or
20 available for funding at the federal grant funds that you
21 managed?
22 A. Yes, they -- my staff were very concerned about
23 the use of these funds for this program.
24 Q. Did you share those concerns?
25 A. Idid,yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 315
1 Q. Did you speak to anybody with respect to your
2 concerns regarding the use of federal funds to support
3 this SpLit program?
4 A. Idid,yes.
5 Q. Whodidyouspeakto?
6 A. Christine Steele, who was my supervisor.
7 Q. And what was your concern? Tell us what the
8 problem was.
9 A. My concern was twofold, actually. So when we
10 first started funding SpLit, those funds were in 6320,
11 which was that Part B grant I talked about. We were very
12 nervous about this, and the State Personnel Development
13 Grant seemed like a better place to put it, even though I
14 felt uncomfortable about it from the jump. But we put the
15 funding into the 6321 SPDG grant.
16 The reason why these were big concerns was
17 because, again, special ed funding should be going toward
18 special ed practices, and this was a general ed
19 curriculum. Not necessary curriculum, but general
20 practices, general strategies that we were teaching not
21 specific to special ed.
22 So, again, we moved -- they were in the 6321
23 grant, but we received some guidance that because it
24 wasn't supported -- what would I say -- research did not
25 support this. Then we were -- I was prompted to move back
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 316
1 over to 6320 and to reallocate to some state funds as
2 well.
3 Q. SpLit is spelled capital S, small p, cap L-i-t.
4 And do you have an understanding what that stands for?
5 A. Special Education Literacy.
6 Q. Okay. And was the Special Education Literacy
7 program focused on special education training or special
8 education students?
9 A. No,itwasnot.
10 Q. Do you have an understanding of what the -- what
11 the predecessor was to SpLit?
12 A. From what I've been told, it was T2T or 3+8 and
13 writers workshop.
14 Q. So those are all just different names for
15 essentially the same kinds of program?
16 A. That's correct. Although T2T is a model, it's a
17 delivery model so teachers 2 teachers, but they were --
18 from what I understand, when administration was doing T2T
19 before me, it was 3+8 and writers workshop, which, again,
20 would be the same thing that SpLit was.
21 Q. So what's the problem? Can you tell -- tell us
22 in terms that I can understand.
23 A. I will try, absolutely. So one -- one big
24 problem with SpLit, I've said this a couple times now, is
25 didn't really have a special ed focus. With our 6320
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 317
1 grant, which is the federal Part B grant for students with
2 disabilities, you can fund general -- you can teach
3 special ed teachers general ed practices, because special
4 ed teachers are in the general classroom, and they need to
5 know that in order to teach their children. You can teach
6 general ed teachers special ed practices, because special
7 ed kids are in their classrooms, and they need to know how
8 to work with students with disabilities.
9 What we were doing with SpLit was taking a
10 general ed program and teaching it to both special ed and
11 general ed teachers, which is not something that we could
12 do with this grant. I can't spend -- I can't fund general
13 ed teachers learning general ed practices. That goes
14 against what IDEA, that's against the grant.
15 Q. Okay. You mentioned Common Core. Can you tell
16 us what Common Core is?
17 A. Yes, Common Core are state standards that we
18 recently adopted. They are college and career readiness
19 standards that our educators are teaching to.
20 Q. Do all teachers need to be trained on the
21 standards that are in Common Core?
22 A. Absolutely, yes.
23 Q. What is writer's workshop, another program you
24 mentioned?
25 A. Writer's workshop, again, was part of SpLit.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 318
1 It's a writing -- I don't want to say program, but model
2 where you teach kids to write. It has a lot of one-on-one
3 conferencing and modeling and doing things together, but
4 it is not specific to special ed.
5 Q. What limitation -- I think -- I think maybe you
6 just answered this, but what limitations were there on the
7 6320 funds?
8 A. Okay. So the limitations are that, again, you
9 can teach special ed strategies to special ed teachers,
10 you can teach special ed strategies to general ed
11 teachers, you can teach general ed strategies to special
12 ed teachers, but I can't teach general ed to general ed.
13 You're missing the special ed piece there.
14 Q. Could the SpLit program properly be funded with
15 the SPDG funds, in your view?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you ever advise your superiors of that
18 conclusion?
19 A. Idid,yes.
20 Q. Whodidyoutalkto?
21 A. I spoke to Christine Steele. I actually wrote a
22 memo specifically about the 6321 funding, which is that
23 SPDG or State Personnel Development Grant.
24 Q. Is that the memo you provided to me the other
25 day?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 319
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. We're going to get there in just a second.
3 Prior to writing the memo, did you have conversations with
4 Christine Steele regarding your concerns about the way
5 this SpLit program was being funded?
6 A. Yes, I did, on numerous occasions.
7 Q. And what was Christine's response?
8 A. Sometimes she would tell me to add more special
9 ed in. I worked very hard with my teammates to do that,
10 with very little success. And I still do not feel
11 comfortable with what we were doing. I kind of kept
12 pushing the issue, and one day I did say to Christine -- I
13 was talking to her about it again, and saying I felt
14 concerned we didn't have enough special ed in this
15 training, and she told me to stop talking about it, that
16 this conversation is over.
17 Q. Did you have a contact with the United States
18 Department of Education that you could speak to with
19 respect to concerns such as this?
20 A. Idid,yes.
21 Q. And who was that contact?
22 A. Susan Weigert is the person I spoke to about
23 this, and she is our State Personnel Development Grant
24 project officer, I believe is her official title.
25 Q. Okay. And what office is she in?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 320
1 A. She's in the office of OSEP, Office of Special
2 Education Programs.
3 Q. And did you contact Susan Weigert and ask her
4 whether or not the SPDG grant could be used to support the
5 kind of training that SpLit offered?
6 A. Yes,Idid.
7 Q. And does the term "balanced literacy" mean
8 something to you?
9 A. Itdoes,yes.
10 Q. Can you tell me what that is?
11 A. Yes, balanced literacy, again, is a model and a
12 way of teaching reading. It is a general ed approach.
13 When trying to talk to Susan Weigert about -- or Weigert
14 about if this was an allowable cost or not, I knew that
15 3+8 would not mean much to her. That's not a term that
16 would be a national term that people have heard of, but
17 this is all based on balanced literacy, and I knew she
18 would know that. So I asked her specifically about
19 balanced literacy and if this SPDG grant would support
20 that.
21 Q. What did Susan Weigert tell you?
22 A. She told me that OSEP would not support us
23 utilizing the SPDG grant for anything with balanced
24 literacy because balanced literacy -- research has shown
25 that balanced literacy is not effective with students with
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 321
1 learning disabilities, and that you would need direct
2 instruction, phonics-based learning, things like that,
3 that are not included with balanced literacy.
4 Q. Okay. And in the notebook that's in front of
5 you should be a tab with your name on it.
6 A. I see it.
7 Q. And then behind that is Exhibit 1. Exhibit 1.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Can you tell us what that is?
10 A. This is a memo I wrote to Christine Steele after
11 talking to Susan Weigert at OSEP.
12 Q. Did you tell anybody else about the problem?
13 A. When I sent this, I sent this via e-mail,
14 and I did cc Fred Hansen on it. He was our fiscal
15 administrator, director, similar to director of, I don't
16 know, finance I guess was what his title would be,
17 something like that.
18 Q. Okay. Other than Christine Steele and
19 Fred Hansen, who were copied on this -- you wrote
20 Fred Hansen who is copied on your e-mail, do you recall
21 telling anyone else in the leadership team about this
22 issue?
23 A. Not on this memo, I did not. I believe that I
24 spoke to Sheryl Lain and told her about my concerns in
25 terms of not having enough special education in the SpLit
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 322
1 program prior to this.
2 Q. Did you have any conversations with Kevin Lewis
3 about it?
4 A. I believe I may have spoken to Kevin Lewis about
5 some of the things that I was concerned about. I talked
6 to Kevin Lewis about a lot of things I was concerned
7 about. I am sure that I talked to him about some of the
8 finances as well.
9 Q. After -- do you recall the passage of Senate
10 File 104?
11 A. Ido,yes.
12 Q. After the passage of Senate File 104, when the
13 Hill leadership team was no longer running the Department,
14 did you do anything to address this concern of misuse of
15 federal funds?
16 A. Wedid,yes.
17 Q. Whatdidyoudo?
18 A. We -- so we base -- we looked at who the
19 participants were. We have substantial -- a substantial
20 list of all the participants that went to the SpLit
21 trainings. We moved the funding from 6321, which I was
22 advised would not support this, into 6320, which is our
23 state Part B grant. You probably recall that we can teach
24 general ed practices to special ed teachers. So we
25 reallocated and we took a percentage of all the special ed
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 323
1 teachers and the general teachers and we split that. So I
2 moved it all into 6320, but then a state grant -- not a
3 state grant, sorry -- a state fund budget, I think it was
4 6108 -- and you'll probably correct me if I'm wrong -- the
5 improvement budget -- school improvement, I believe it is,
6 paid for the general population then. So as of today I
7 feel very good about the way we funded it.
8 Q. Okay. So, in essence, did you make an
9 accounting correction and then backfill with state funds?
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 Q. Okay. Miss Dobler, were you interviewed by the
12 governor's inquiry team, which led to the MacPherson
13 report?
14 A. Yes,Iwas.
15 Q. Were you asked to tell Ms. MacPherson about some
16 positive aspects to your employment under the Hill
17 administration?
18 A. Yes,Iwas.
19 Q. Wereyouabletodoso?
20 A. I believe that I said it was very difficult.
21 Q. Okay. Can you generally describe for the
22 committee the environment in the Department under
23 Superintendent Hill's leadership team?
24 A. Yes. It was very -- it was very toxic. It
25 was -- people didn't trust each other. You didn't know
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 324
1 who to talk to because you weren't sure who to trust, who
2 you could trust. There were all these concerns about the
3 administration, but you certainly weren't going to say
4 anything to anybody, lest they know the administration, be
5 very tight with them, and you could lose your job. I
6 mean, people were fearful of losing their jobs all the
7 time. We felt like the administration were bullies, and
8 it was extremely uncomfortable.
9 MR. SALZBURG: Mr. Speaker, at this point I
10 would ask that we go into executive session to discuss a
11 matter which concerns an inquiry into a violation of
12 personnel policies and which also has this additional
13 aspect of I think it would constitute an unwarranted
14 invasion of personal privacy of this witness.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Without objection, it
16 would be so ordered.
17 (Pages 325 through 334 are
18 confidential and sealed in a separate
19 transcript.)
20 *****
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 335
1 (The following occurred in
2 open session.)
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: We are back on the record.
4 Counsel, please proceed.
5 MR. SALZBURG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
6 Q. (BY MR. SALZBURG) Miss Dobler, these are
7 questions that have been submitted by the superintendent.
8 Are you represented by counsel in this matter?
9 A. No, I'm not. Besides the AG's office.
10 Q. Have you ever testified under oath before today?
11 A. No, I have not.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the penalties for perjury
13 and that you are subject to those penalties should you
14 provide false testimony?
15 A. Yes, I am.
16 Q. Did you speak to anyone prior to today about
17 your testimony before this committee, including
18 Mr. Jarosh, Mr. Salzburg, or representatives from their
19 firms, members of the legislature, other staff or
20 employees of the State, such as the governor's office or
21 the Wyoming Department of Education?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who did you speak to?
24 A. I spoke to you, spoke to Khale, but I'm not sure
25 what his last name is. I'm sorry. The whole WDE is
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 336
1 talking about this right now as I imagine, so I spoke to
2 people at the WDE about testifying today.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. Ispoketomyhusband.
5 Q. We don't want to -- we don't want to hear about
6 conversations that you've had with your spouse. So let's
7 start with me and Mr. Lenhart. When did you speak with me
8 and Mr. Lenhart?
9 A. I believe it was shortly before Christmas and
10 then again after. I spoke to you in the last -- last week
11 I guess it was, we had an appointment on Thursday or
12 Friday or something like that.
13 Q. Okay. And how long were your conversations with
14 me or Mr. Lenhart?
15 A. Anhour,maybetwo.
16 Q. Okay. And can you describe in detail the
17 substance of those discussions?
18 A. Yes. We spoke almost identical to the questions
19 that you asked me today, you asked me there. Then you
20 told me at that first meeting that if the legislature
21 thought I was a credible witness or would want to hear
22 more from me, that they would call me here. And then you
23 did call, said I was testifying. We met again. You told
24 me that you'd review the questions so that I knew. They
25 were the same you asked me before. And you wanted to make
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 337
1 sure that you understood what I meant and that we were --
2 that that was accurate. And then you told me what this
3 would look like, just about the testimony.
4 Q. Did either Mr. Lenhart or I give you any
5 instructions?
6 A. I'm just trying to think of all the
7 instructions. I mean, answer honestly, maybe, you said.
8 Come here when I call you, I'll call you when it's time,
9 simple instructions like that.
10 Q. Did the attorneys or their representatives
11 instruct you your testimony must be truthful and must be
12 based upon personal knowledge or observation and could not
13 be based on speculation, conjecture or opinion?
14 A. Something along those lines.
15 Q. Are you in possession of any documented evidence
16 relating to your testimony?
17 A. I don't know what that means. A subpoena and
18 I've got it on my calendar that we met.
19 Q. First of all, did you have a discussion with the
20 governor's inquiry team?
21 A. Idid,yes.
22 Q. Did you provide any documents to them?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. When deciding which documents or evidence should
25 be provided to the MacPherson committee, were you given
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 338
1 instructions of what to provide?
2 A. I do not believe so. We were told to bring
3 anything we thought was relevant.
4 Q. Okay. If not, what was your standard for
5 deciding what to provide?
6 A. My standard was that I had started collecting
7 things that were concerning to me and so anything I had
8 retained specifically for an instance such as that I
9 presented it.
10 Q. Have you reviewed the report that came out of
11 the MacPherson investigation as it pertains to you?
12 A. Notthoroughly.
13 Q. That means yes, but not thoroughly or --
14 A. I mean really, to be honest with you, the
15 confidential report had what we talked about recently, and
16 no, I did not read any of that. And I didn't read the
17 confidential report.
18 Q. Do the statements attributed to you in the
19 MacPherson report accurately reflect your testimony to
20 that committee?
21 A. I think for the most part what I read was
22 accurate.
23 Q. Can you recall anything that was inaccurate?
24 A. Notoffhand,no.
25 Q. Okay. Do you affirm under oath all the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 339
1 statements attributed to you in the MacPherson report?
2 A. No, because I haven't read it all.
3 Q. Okay. Would you like to have the opportunity to
4 read that and provide an affidavit to the committee if
5 there's any changes?
6 A. Sure. Yes,please.
7 MR.SALZBURG: Mr.Speaker,thankyou.
8 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Themajorityfloorleader
9 tells me he would like to go back into executive session.
10 Is there any objection to going back into executive
11 session?
12 No objection. It will be so ordered. We'll be
13 back in executive session briefly for this witness.
14 Sorry,MissDobler.
15 THEWITNESS: That'sokay.
16 (Pages340through351are
17 confidentialandsealedinaseparate
18 transcript.)
19 * * * * *
20
21
22
23
24
25
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 352
1 (Thefollowingoccurredin
2 opensession.)
3 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Miss Dobler, these are
4 questions from Superintendent Hill that she submitted
5 either electronically or in handwriting.
6 Has there been an audit by the United States
7 Department of Education, U.S. Office of Inspector General
8 or U.S. General Accounting Office determining that the use
9 of SPDG funds were used in an allowable way?
10 A. I'm not aware of an audit. I did have a phone
11 call with Susan -- Susan Weigert after all this came out
12 and the MacPherson report came out, the Feds did hear
13 about that. And Susan Weigert wanted to speak with us
14 about what had happened. We explained the situation to
15 her. I told her how we had moved the funds and that we
16 had taken care of it or were taking care of it, and she
17 said that she felt good about it.
18 Q. This isn't one of Superintendent Hill's
19 questions. My understanding is that we use state dollars
20 and pay the federal government back; is that correct?
21 A. In essence, yes, that would be -- yeah.
22 Q. Do you have a formal opinion from anyone at the
23 U.S. Department of Education supporting or otherwise
24 informing anyone of your concerns about SpLit?
25 A. Do I have a formal opinion; is that what you
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 353
1 said?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. There is an e-mail, I believe, from Susan
4 Weigert that we did share that talks about, I don't know,
5 not supporting balanced literacy, something like that, but
6 when she specifically said that to me, it was over the
7 phone. It was a phone conversation.
8 Q. Where in the law is it required that these funds
9 be used exclusively for special ed teachers?
10 A. Where -- it doesn't -- for SpLit -- I mean, for
11 special ed -- for both of those grants it doesn't say
12 that, and I -- I talked about that earlier, that you can
13 use those dollars on general ed teachers. It just depends
14 on the content that you're using.
15 Q. In Wyoming are special education students found
16 in general classrooms?
17 A. Yes,theyare.
18 Q. Is this required by the least restrictive
19 environment of IDEA?
20 A. That'scorrect.
21 Q. Wasn't the promotion of SpLit targeted at
22 teachers with IDEA students in their classroom?
23 A. Yeah, they did have IDEA students in their
24 classrooms.
25 Q. Where did you locate the limitations that --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 354
1 described in federal law or federal regulations?
2 A. It's part of the grant. I can certainly find
3 that for you. I also visited often with my RRC, which is
4 the Regional Resource Center, OSEP funds, our Regional
5 Resource Center that basically has representatives that
6 are your TA folks. I visited often with her. I spoke
7 with the Feds. I spoke actually directly with my Part B
8 consultant, who is Melissa Miller, at OSEP, and I asked
9 her specifically about how you fund -- that is how I
10 characterized the general ed versus special ed
11 expenditures, I got that exactly from her.
12 Q. Did you file -- or did you provide these
13 limitations to Christine?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you provide them to the committee?
16 A. Did I --
17 Q. Us.
18 A. It's in this memo that you guys have.
19 Q. Okay. And to Mrs. MacPherson?
20 A. Yes, I provided the same memo and other things.
21 Q. Have you provided the written opinions from
22 Susan Weigert regarding the use of federal funds for
23 balanced literacy to the committee?
24 A. I do not believe that you have that e-mail. We
25 were asked from the -- maybe month or more ago to get all
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 355
1 documentation that we possibly could gather for all of
2 you, and I believe that was in there.
3 Q. Where is that written opinion? In there, I
4 guess.
5 A. And, again, when she specifically said you
6 cannot use those funds for this, it was over the phone.
7 Q. Is there any documented support for your
8 statement that federal funds may not be used for balanced
9 literacy?
10 A. Would you say that one more time.
11 Q. Excuseme?
12 A. Would you say it one more time.
13 Q. Sure. Is there any documented support for your
14 statement that federal funds may not be used for balanced
15 literacy?
16 A. I think that question is -- is inaccurate.
17 Federal funds can be used for balanced literacy, but these
18 particular funds there's some limitations on the funds
19 that we were using.
20 Q. When did you write -- when did you write the
21 memo to Christine Steele regarding the SpLit funding?
22 A. Looks like my date says January 24th.
23 Q. You indicated that people were fearful of losing
24 their jobs all the time; is that correct?
25 A. I may have said that, yes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 356
1 Q. Do you know how many permanent employees were
2 terminated by Superintendent Hill?
3 A. I do not.
4 Q. Would it surprise you to know that only one
5 person was fired, and that was because the person was
6 unable to go to work?
7 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Jesus criminy.
8 A. Sure.
9 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) When providing staff
10 development beyond -- when provide --
11 I'm trying to make sense of this -- and
12 Superintendent Hill -- when providing staff development
13 beyond a school day and upon completion beyond the school
14 day.
15 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Can I finish it?
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Sure.
17 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I'm pretty tired,
18 too, so forgive me.
19 Staff development -- this had to do with the
20 funding of the -- the funds that she said were provided for
21 special educators. When staff development was provided
22 beyond the school day, so the teachers weren't working, and
23 the former administration, Peg Brown-Clark, recommended
24 indeed that the school -- or WDE provide funds for those
25 teachers. Is that indeed correct.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 357
1 A. I don't know what Peg Brown-Clark -- sorry.
2 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Okay. Sorry.
3 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Did Peg Brown-Clark explain
4 WDE must pay special ed teachers as this was the WDE
5 special ed practices?
6 A. I do not know what Peg Brown-Clark advised or
7 said. I'm sorry.
8 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Those are all the
9 questions. Thank you very much, Miss Dobler.
10 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: I'm sorry,
11 Chairman, while we had some questioning by the committee in
12 executive, if I could, I've just got a couple questions on
13 the --
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Sure.
15 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON) Miss Dobler, the --
16 couple follow-up questions on your memo to Miss Steele.
17 Do you know, can you remember when in time that was
18 written after the conversation you relayed regarding the
19 advisement that, you know, there were to be no more
20 questions about the funding source?
21 A. Oh. Yes, so Christine Steele made it very clear
22 to me that I would need -- that I should stop talking
23 about this, so I did for a while. And then Kimberly
24 Harper was telling me that she had talked to Susan
25 Weigert, her program officer, because Kimberly Harper is
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 358
1 over that SPDG grant, and expressed her concerns that that
2 grant could not -- certainly couldn't pay for this. And I
3 became then very concerned myself. And I said okay, I'm
4 calling Susan Weigert myself because now I'm really
5 nervous. And this was during the time when Senate File
6 104 was starting to be generated and getting very
7 nerve-racking. So I said, okay, I'm finding out for sure.
8 And as soon as she said no, this not would be supported, I
9 immediately wrote the memo.
10 Q. Mr. Speaker. Ms. Dobler, you talked about the
11 eventual response to Miss Weigert's advice to you.
12 What -- was there any response directly from Miss Steele
13 with respect to your memo?
14 A. Yes,therewas.
15 Q. Andwhatwasthat?
16 A. The day of -- the day after, possibly -- I came
17 and saw her. I was very, very nervous, because I was
18 putting it pretty out there, black and white, how I felt
19 in this memo. I was very nervous. But, again, Senate
20 File 104 was starting -- I wanted to make it real clear
21 how I felt. And for the first time, when I saw Christine
22 Steele, she said to me, "We should probably get this taken
23 care of. I absolutely think we should get this taken care
24 of, and we'll do whatever we need to do to get it taken
25 care of." That was the first time I ever heard that from
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 359
1 her.
2 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Thank you.
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Mrs. Hill, do you have any
4 other questions --
5 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I don't.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: -- based on what
7 Representative Stubson's questions were?
8 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: Thank you for asking.
9 I'm exhausted. I'm sorry. I don't have any more
10 questions.
11 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. Now, thank
12 you, Miss Dobler. I appreciate it.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: I know this was not a fun
15 experience for you, but I appreciate you taking your time
16 and offering your testimony. Thank you very much.
17 THE WITNESS: I appreciate you -- thank you
18 for going into executive session for me.
19 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. Counsel.
20 MR. LENHART: All right. For our final
21 witness today, counsel calls Kim Harper.
22 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Harper, you haven't
23 been here all day, have you?
24 THE WITNESS: I've been at work all day. I
25 was here this morning and stayed at work.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 360
1 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you hear the initial
2 advisement about when counsel's questioning you and talk to
3 counsel and when the committee's questioning you, you can
4 come through me?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Did you get the initial
7 advisement of rights with your subpoena?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Do you understand
10 it?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Do you have any questions?
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Would you raise your --
15 THE WITNESS: Raise my right hand?
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Yeah.
17 (Witness sworn.)
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you.
19 THE REPORTER: Can you put the microphone
20 close to you.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes. It doesn't want to
22 move. It must be tired too.
23 KIMBERLYANNHARPER,
24 called as a witness on behalf of the Select Investigative
25 Committee, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 361
1 EXAMINATION
2 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) All right. Miss Harper, could
3 you please state your name for the record.
4 A. Kimberly Ann Harper.
5 Q. And where are you currently employed?
6 A. I'm employed with the Wyoming Department of
7 Education.
8 Q. What's your title?
9 A. I am --
10 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Harper, would you --
11 would you hold the mic a little closer so that -- they have
12 a speaker in front of us -- so we can hear you.
13 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Make sure the red
14 light's on.
15 SPEAKER LUBNAU: And make sure the little
16 red light's on.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: Is that better?
20 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) I'm sorry, what was your
21 title?
22 A. I'm the administrator of learning for Special
23 Programs.
24 Q. And has that always been your title at the
25 Department of Education?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 362
1 A. No.
2 Q. What was it before that?
3 A. When I was initially hired, I'm not sure that I
4 really had a title. I was told that I was -- that my
5 position was to support Tiffany Dobler, that I was
6 basically at an equal level -- at equal level with
7 Stephanie Weaver, who was Tiffany -- who was the deputy
8 director at the time, that Stephanie was to handle the
9 financial dealings with the grant I was working on, and I
10 was supposed to handle all the learning initiatives.
11 Q. So when did you become the Special Programs
12 administrator of learning?
13 A. I know, it's a long title. I get a lot of flack
14 for that.
15 Stephanie Weaver resigned in September, and
16 shortly after that, I was told that my position would
17 change and I would be a supervisor.
18 Q. In September of this year?
19 A. Lastyear. Lastyear.
20 Q. That moves me actually to my next question.
21 When were you hired with the Department of Education?
22 A. I was hired in August of 2012.
23 Q. Can you give us a quick summary of your
24 education background?
25 A. Yes, I can. I have a BSN, a master's in nursing
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 363
1 from Texas Women's University. Would you like me to talk
2 about my employment along this line?
3 Q. We'lldothatnext.
4 A. Okay. So I have a bachelor's of nursing from
5 Texas Women's University. I have 12 hours of graduate
6 credit in information management and library science. I
7 have a master's degree in curriculum -- in curriculum and
8 instruction. And I have -- I'm three hours short of
9 having a second master's degree, so I have an endorsement
10 in school administration and leadership, and I'm licensed
11 in Colorado and Wyoming as a school administrator.
12 Q. Can you summarize your employment history for
13 us.
14 A. I worked as a neonatal ICU nurse for a good
15 portion of my life. I was a stay-at-home mom for a while.
16 I started and ran a school library at a small private
17 school that went on to be accredited within a year. I'm
18 going to talk about a little volunteer work I did, because
19 it leads into why I went into education. But I was
20 president of the PTA at one school in Faribault,
21 Minnesota, and then I was appointed to the board of
22 trustees of that school where I was on the long-range
23 strategic planning committee and the finance committee.
24 I then went back to the NICU. After I received
25 my curriculum and instruction degree, I began teaching. I
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 364
1 taught first grade. I taught fourth grade. During that
2 time I received my principal license, and I was an interim
3 principal, I call it that, I was an acting principal in
4 our district so when principals are out of town or on some
5 sort of leave, I took their place. I was also the acting
6 principal in the school that I taught at.
7 Q. How did you come to work at the Wyoming
8 Department of Education?
9 A. My son was dating Megan Meisen at the time.
10 Megan had worked for Cindy Hill, I think for about a year.
11 And during that year Megan kept telling me that I needed
12 to come up to Wyoming and work, that I'd really like the
13 culture here in Wyoming, that the WDE was an incredible
14 place to work, and I'd be pretty happy with it. At the
15 end of the 2012 school year, I was getting ready to start
16 looking for a principal position or administrative
17 position, and so this opening occurred at the WDE and I
18 applied.
19 Q. Could you describe your duties as Special
20 Programs administrator.
21 A. I'm the supervisor of professional development
22 state initiatives for students with disabilities or
23 Special Programs Unit, and I'm also the project director
24 of the State Personnel Development Grant, or the SPDG
25 grant.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 365
1 Q. And who do you primarily work with at the
2 Department of Education?
3 A. I work with the Special Programs Division.
4 We've -- since Director Crandall's arrival we've started
5 working across divisions, so I work with state systems of
6 support, and I also work on Director Crandall's -- I do
7 work on his leadership team -- with his leadership team.
8 Q. I understand at least for some time you shared
9 an office at the Department; is that correct?
10 A. I shared an office with Tiffany Dobler --
11 sorry -- when I first started working at the WDE, and then
12 I had my own office. Recently I shared an office with --
13 with an employee that I supervised.
14 Q. Now, I understand there are two federal grants
15 that you work with. You already referenced the State
16 Personnel Development Grant, or SPDG grant?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Am I correct that you also worked with the IDEA
19 grant?
20 A. I am able to access funds from the IDEA grant if
21 needed for professional development or technical
22 assistance, but the main budget I work with is 6321, or
23 the SPDG grant.
24 Q. Let's talk about those two grants. Taking the
25 SPDG grant first, what can that grant be used for?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 366
1 A. That grant is to be used to provide research-
2 based professional development or technical assistance
3 that improves outcomes for students with disabilities.
4 I'll stop there.
5 Q. Okay. So what can it not be used for, then?
6 Are there any specific prohibitions on that grant?
7 A. It cannot be used to fund a general education
8 curriculum.
9 Q. What about the IDEA grant? The IDEA, what can
10 that be used for?
11 A. I'm not as familiar with that grant. It is also
12 a grant that is used to fund special education
13 initiatives. I think the bulk of that grant goes directly
14 to our schools and our districts. We have access to maybe
15 10 percent of it. I think the funds can be used a little
16 more liberally than the funds associated with the SPDG
17 grant.
18 Q. Is there anything that the IDEA grant cannot be
19 used for?
20 A. I'mnotsure.
21 Q. As I understand it, these grants also have some
22 overarching purposes. What are the purpose -- what is the
23 purpose of the SPDG grant?
24 A. Okay. Let me see if I can articulate this
25 properly. The SPDG grant 's intent is to fund the
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 367
1 building of an infrastructure for development of
2 professional development and technical assistance across
3 the state of Wyoming. It's to build capacity for
4 educators in districts that work with students who have
5 disabilities, and it's to ensure sustainability of the
6 programs that we put in place.
7 Q. Is there a way to put that in more layman's
8 terms?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. All right. What about the IDEA grant,
11 does that have an overarching purpose?
12 A. The IDEA -- the IDEA Part B federal grant is to
13 support special education in general.
14 Q. Stepping away from the grants for a moment. Are
15 you familiar with the term "T2T"?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What does that term mean?
18 A. As the way I understand it, it is just a
19 delivery model for having teachers work with other
20 teachers, support them and give them professional
21 development for work.
22 Q. What was the SpLit program?
23 A. The SpLit program -- SpLit stood for Special
24 Education Literacy, and that was one of Cindy Hill's
25 administration's learning initiatives.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 368
1 Q. Whatabout3+8?
2 A. 3+8 was a program that we taught within the
3 SpLit program. We worked with 3+8, we worked with --
4 THEREPORTER: I'msorry. Whatworkshop?
5 THEWITNESS: Writingworkshop.
6 And we taught -- we worked with the Common Core.
7 3+8 is a literacy program that focuses on the three types
8 of text that students use, functional texts, narrative
9 texts, expository texts. The 8 referred to the components
10 of that texts that we were going to teach.
11 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) Okay. You mentioned writing
12 workshop. What was that?
13 A. It was a program for teaching writing. Or it
14 was a model for teaching writing. I'm sorry.
15 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Youdoingokay? Doyou
16 need a break?
17 (Off-the-recorddiscussion.)
18 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) Did any of these programs we
19 just identified utilize the T2T approach to professional
20 development?
21 A. Yes, I believe they all did.
22 Q. Was there ever a point where they stopped using
23 the T2T approach?
24 A. No, not to my knowledge.
25 Q. Is the SpLit program still in effect? Is it
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 369
1 still being used?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Andwhendidthatstop?
4 A. That stopped when the Cindy Hill administration
5 left.
6 Q. So I assume same for 3+8 and writing workshop?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I understand you created the binders for the
9 SpLit program; is that correct?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. What was the difference in the SpLit program
12 materials and the material used in the Wyoming Reads
13 program?
14 A. They were basically the same. The only
15 difference being I had three special education teachers
16 that were supposed to do 5- to 10-minute cameos during our
17 SpLit workshops. That -- that was supposed to be our SpEd
18 spin for these workshops. They asked that I put their
19 materials in our binders. The binders contained about 250
20 pages of materials. They asked that I put 17 pages in, so
21 the SpLit binders they'd have 17 pages of materials
22 related to special education. I guess I was told not to
23 put those in the binder. I put them in anyway.
24 Q. Who told you not to put those in?
25 A. SherylLain.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 370
1 Q. Doyouknowwhy?
2 A. Well, her explanation to me was that it was cost
3 prohibitive. It would cost too much to run them off and
4 put them in a binder.
5 Q. Stepping back to those grants now. How was the
6 SpLit program funded?
7 A. Initially the SpLit program was funded through
8 the SPDG grant, or 6321.
9 Q. Who made that decision?
10 A. I'm not sure where that decision came from. I
11 don't know.
12 Q. Did you have concerns regarding funding the
13 SpLit program with the SPDG funds?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what were those concerns?
16 A. I had several concerns. One was that we were
17 teaching a gen ed curriculum using special education
18 funds. The SPDG grant is a lot tighter than the Part B
19 funds.
20 Another concern I had was the amount of money we
21 were pulling out of the grant. I have to report on that
22 grant every year in annual APR, and I have to be able to
23 validate the programs that we're supporting with -- and I
24 could not do that with the programs that were being run
25 through the grant.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 371
1 And then my -- another concern that I had was we
2 were billing these weekend workshops -- we were putting
3 them out as special education workshops, and they actually
4 had very little to do with special education.
5 Q. What did you do to raise those concerns with the
6 WDE leadership?
7 A. I had several conversations with Sheryl Lain and
8 Christine Steele.
9 Q. Howdidthosego?
10 A. Notverywell.
11 Q. Did you tell them -- go ahead and tell us about
12 them if you can.
13 A. Basically I was told over and over again that it
14 wasn't my concern. I didn't need to be bothered with it.
15 I needed to do what this administration wanted. I agreed
16 with that. I told both Christine Steele and Sheryl Lain
17 that I was going to go along with the learning initiatives
18 of this administration, but within the realm of the grant,
19 I wanted to be honest with OSEP about exactly what we were
20 teaching. I forgot where I was going with that question.
21 Q. Is there anything else that they said or any
22 other way to respond when you raised those concerns?
23 A. Yes. I was told to put the SpEd spin on it, if
24 I really pushed about my concerns with funding from the
25 grant, I was told that -- I was told this several times --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 372
1 that Wyoming had plenty of money and plenty of funds, and
2 we would just get rid of the grant.
3 Q. What do you mean by "the SpEd spin on things"?
4 A. Somehow they -- they wanted me to figure out a
5 way to work a special education curriculum into what they
6 were -- into their learning initiatives.
7 Q. Wereyouabletodothat?
8 A. No. I had three cameo presenters that were able
9 to present between 5 and 10 minutes at each one of the
10 conferences, and that was as close as we got to being able
11 to work with our SpEd teachers.
12 Q. I understand there was a conference with the
13 Office of Special Education Programs regarding rewriting
14 the SPDG grant. Does that sound familiar?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell me about that?
17 A. I should probably preface that with a
18 conversation that Tiffany Dobler, myself, Christine Steele
19 and Sheryl Lain had about rewriting the grant. In
20 rewriting the grant I was -- we were told on what to say
21 in it, and what we were saying was very vague. We were
22 kind of beating around the bush, skirting the issues. I
23 was concerned about that. I -- I voiced those opinions
24 with Sheryl Lain and Christine Steele.
25 Q. And the conference --
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 373
1 A. Oh, I remember, I know where I was going with
2 this. It's late.
3 At that time we were told that the grant was
4 our -- our deal to put the SpEd spin on it and to talk to
5 OSEP about it.
6 Q. Okay. And what happened at your conference with
7 OSEP?
8 A. Prior to the conference, the conversation that
9 Christine, Tiffany, Sheryl Lain and I had, when I just
10 kind of stated I wanted to be honest about what we were
11 doing with the grant, Tiffany called me -- I was in the
12 car, the three of them were meeting together in the
13 office. Tiffany called me about a half hour later and
14 told me that Cindy Hill, Sheryl Lain, and Christine Steele
15 had called her into the office, and I'm not privy to a lot
16 of what the conversation was, but in the end what was said
17 was that I was not -- that Tiffany was not to talk to OSEP
18 about the grant when we had our conversation with them,
19 and that she was to tell Kimberly not to say anything to
20 OSEP.
21 Q. Okay. So what happened when the call actually
22 came around?
23 A. About five minutes before the call occurred,
24 Sheryl Lain and Christine Steele came into our office.
25 They were very kind of forceful in their speech, and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 374
1 Christine Steele said, "You will talk to OSEP about the
2 grant. You will hold the entire conversation with them.
3 Sheryl Lain and I are not going to say anything. You and
4 Tiffany will say everything." I told Christine I didn't
5 feel prepared to talk to OSEP about the grant, that I
6 didn't understand fully what the learning initiatives that
7 this administration wanted to work with were, and that I
8 just wasn't comfortable with it. She told me that the
9 grant was my job, that I was to do all the talking to OSEP
10 along with Tiffany.
11 Q. So did you do all the talking, then?
12 A. We did most of the talking. We sat -- the four
13 of us sat at a round table. We had our -- the conference
14 call -- or the phone in the middle of the table. Tiffany
15 and I did a lot of the talking, with Sheryl Lain and
16 Christine Steele sitting at the table with us, either
17 nodding their heads or shaking their heads in reaction to
18 things that we said, or modeling to us what to say. And
19 then Christine Steele did -- did enter the conversation at
20 several -- several different points.
21 Q. So what was the subject of that call? What were
22 you trying to accomplish?
23 A. Oh, we were -- we were working on rewriting the
24 grant to meet this administration's needs.
25 Q. So what changes were you seeking?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 375
1 A. A lot of the wording -- a lot of the wording was
2 changed from being pretty specific as to what our goals
3 and outcomes were to being very loose and not specific.
4 So instead of saying we are working with a certain
5 program, we would say we are working with the learning
6 initiatives of this administration.
7 The budget narrative was changed in the
8 rewriting of the grant to reflect -- I was the project
9 director of the grant, so I was responsible for the
10 finances for the reporting on the grant. The budget
11 narrative was changed so that Chris -- so that it read
12 Sheryl Lain has 0.1 FTDs associated with the grant, but
13 she is responsible for all the learning initiatives that
14 go out, and she has final decision over all expenditures.
15 Q. AndFTDis?
16 A. Time spent working on something.
17 Q. Did you ever consult with the Office of Special
18 Education Programs on whether the SPDG grant could be used
19 to fund the SpLit program?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What -- go ahead tell us what happened.
22 A. When I became the project director of the
23 grant and we wrote the budget narrative the way we did,
24 I became very concerned that my responsibility was to
25 report the projects and initiatives we were working on
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 376
1 and needed a lot of data to do that. My responsibilities
2 were also to oversee the finances of the grant, and yet
3 I did not have any authority over the finances or over
4 the initiatives that we were running through the grant.
5 I sought counsel, so I actually took the grant to an
6 attorney. He told me he wasn't sure how the grant could
7 be used, that it was kind of vague. I was still
8 concerned. So when I came back to the office, I called
9 my project officer, Susan Weigert, and just flat-out asked
10 her if we could teach a balanced literacy program through
11 the grant.
12 Q. When was this conversation?
13 A. I believe it was in December of 2012.
14 Q. And what did -- was it Miss Weigert?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Whatdidshesay?
17 A. Miss Weigert told me that the way that the grant
18 was written, and it being that we had to stay with -- with
19 the intent of the grant, that we could not use the grant
20 to fund a balanced literacy program.
21 Q. Did she tell you why that was?
22 A. Because balanced -- the balanced literacy
23 program was not researched based in showing improvements
24 or improved outcomes for students with disabilities.
25 Q. How did you fix the problem of funding the SpLit
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 377
1 program?
2 A. Of course, I told Tiffany, you know, what Susan
3 said. Tiffany then called Susan. She wanted to hear that
4 for herself. And it was decided that we would move the
5 funds that we had -- or we would put the funds back into
6 the SPDG, back into the grant, and fund the presenters,
7 fund the participants through 6 -- through 6320. We also
8 divided the participants up into who worked with special
9 education students, who worked with general education
10 students, and the funds for the general education
11 participants were paid for through state funds.
12 Q. Do you know what budget those state funds came
13 from?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. Moving along to Mr. Kevin Lewis. I
16 understand you worked with Mr. Lewis as part of your job,
17 correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And I understand you also had some
20 problems with Mr. Lewis over --
21 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Mr.Lenhart,isthisan
22 executive session topic?
23 MR.LENHART: Notyet.
24 SPEAKERLUBNAU: Okay.
25 MR.LENHART: Itwillbe.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 378
1 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) Could you -- and I understand
2 you had a couple of run-ins with Mr. Lewis; is that
3 correct?
4 A. I had several run-ins with Mr. Lewis.
5 Q. Could you tell us the subject matter of those
6 run-ins?
7 A. The run-ins occurred after we reported an
8 incident that happened in our office to --
9 Q. And we'll talk about that in executive session.
10 A. The first one I had with him was over a meeting
11 that we had with the -- Tiffany and I had with the
12 presenters for the SpLit conference. We were told that --
13 I was told that I was in charge of those conferences, but
14 I had little or no control over who the speakers were, nor
15 did I know what their topics were, so we asked them to
16 come and talk to us about what they were presenting.
17 Kevin Lewis, Sheryl Lain and Christine came to that
18 meeting. After that meeting they basically just kind of
19 sat there and yelled at us about not wasting other
20 people's time, not -- the meeting being kind of uncalled
21 for and not needed. So he was very -- he's very abrasive,
22 very condescending.
23 Another run-in I had with him, I was meeting
24 with Gerri Gonzalez at the middle school. Sheryl Lain
25 asked me to meet her at the middle school at 7:15 in
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 379
1 the morning. When I got there, Kevin was sitting on
2 the floor outside of the classroom we were meeting at.
3 I walked up and he looked at me, and he goes, "What are
4 you doing here?" And I told him that Sheryl Lain asked
5 me to be there to go over the online instruction with
6 Gerri Gonzalez. And he said he didn't know why she
7 would do that.
8 And then as we were having meetings with
9 Gerri Gonzalez -- I wrote the online course so that it had
10 something to do with special education. I asked Kevin
11 if he wanted me to go back and get it, because he was
12 going over it with Gerri Gonzalez. And he told me no,
13 that wouldn't be necessary. He and Sheryl, I guess, had
14 rewritten the online course. It's another time where he
15 was very abrasive and almost abusive.
16 I had a phone call from Terri Alleman, who was
17 one of our cameo presenters. She was very concerned about
18 presenting, very apprehensive about it. She told me she
19 had presented the year before, and that she thought the
20 Wyoming Department of Education did not appreciate her and
21 did not treat her well. And so I made a point to go to
22 Casper, Wyoming and watch her teach and then talk to her,
23 after she was done, about presenting.
24 During that conversation Terri told me that --
25 she asked me if her contract had been approved, that she
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 380
1 hadn't seen it. And she was concerned because the year
2 before she had taught some courses for this
3 administration, and after the last one she taught she was
4 told that there were no funds available to pay her for it.
5 I think she was eventually paid, but she was very
6 concerned and wanted to know where her contract was in the
7 process.
8 Kevin Lewis had made it very clear to us many
9 times that he had handled all the contracts. So I called
10 Kevin Lewis and asked him if the contract was with A&I or
11 where it was in processing. The conferences were going to
12 start in a week, and Terri was concerned about where we
13 were with that process. He started yelling at me on the
14 phone and told me that he was sick of me asking him
15 questions, that he didn't know why I was singling out
16 Terri Alleman? Why did I want her contract and not
17 everybody else's? Why was I calling him about it?
18 That conversation went on to the point where I
19 finally -- I said, "Kevin, this is not a covert operation.
20 Terri wants to know where we are in the process with her
21 contract. She wants it signed before she starts to
22 teach." He said, "This conversation is done," and he hung
23 up.
24 And, you know, there's other stories kind of
25 just like that. I don't know if you want to hear them
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 381
1 all.
2 MR. LENHART: I think this is actually a
3 good point to go into executive session, so I recommend the
4 committee go into executive.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Without objection, we'll
6 go into executive session.
7 (Pages 382 through 399 are
8 confidential and sealed in a separate
9 transcript.)
10 *****
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Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 400
1 (The following occurred in
2 open session.)
3 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Miss Harper, what will
4 happen now is the superintendent has provided a list of
5 general questions. There aren't any specific questions
6 directed exactly towards you, so we'll ask you this list of
7 general questions. Then the committee will ask you general
8 open-session questions, if we can remember back to before
9 executive session. And then the superintendent will have
10 an opportunity to ask nonexecutive session questions in
11 much the same way that she's done.
12 Superintendent, are you having problems with your
13 Internet?
14 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I'm fine, thank you.
15 Thanks for asking.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: All right. So
17 Mr. Lenhart.
18 FURTHEREXAMINATION
19 Q. (BY MR. LENHART) These are the general
20 questions for all witnesses from Superintendent Hill.
21 Are you represented by counsel in this matter
22 and is that counsel here today?
23 A. I am represented by counsel, and that counsel is
24 not here today.
25 Q. Who is your counsel?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 401
1 A. Steve Kline.
2 Q. Have you ever testified under oath?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you please describe that.
5 A. Gosh, back in the '80s, my husband and I had a
6 home built. The builder did not do things that were in
7 the contract. We had a two-week jury trial, so I
8 testified under oath during that trial.
9 Q. Any other times?
10 A. No. I believe that's it.
11 Q. Are you familiar with the penalties for perjury
12 and that you are subject to those penalties should you
13 provide false testimony?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you speak with anyone prior to today about
16 your testimony before this committee, including
17 Mr. Jarosh, Mr. Salzburg or representatives from their
18 firms, members of the legislature, other staff or
19 employees of the State, such as the governor's office or
20 the Wyoming Department of Education?
21 A. Can you repeat that again?
22 Q. Yes, I can.
23 A. Sorry.
24 Q. Sure. Did you speak with anyone prior to today
25 about your testimony before this committee, including
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 402
1 Mr. Jarosh, Mr. Salzburg or representatives from their
2 firms, members of the legislature, other staff or
3 employees of the State, such as the governor's office, the
4 Wyoming Department of Education?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. And who would that be?
7 A. I spoke to my counsel several times.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. Ispoketoyou.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. As Tiffany said, it's the topic of conversation
12 around the WDE, so, yes, we have been talking about it.
13 I'm not aware of anybody else, unless we go back a long
14 time.
15 Q. Well, we don't want to hear about what you spoke
16 to your counsel about. So when did you speak with me?
17 A. I spoke with you in December. You kind of -- I
18 called it a deposition. You kind of asked me questions
19 and I answered them. You told me that I might be called
20 to testify. And then I spoke with you again last Friday,
21 and at that time you just kind of went over what the setup
22 would look like. Basic things.
23 Q. How long were your conversations with me?
24 A. The first conversation I believe was a couple of
25 hours. Second one was probably 15 or 20 minutes.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 403
1 Q. Okay. And you've already done this somewhat,
2 but please describe in detail those discussions.
3 A. The discussion with you basically went -- looked
4 into the topics that we discussed today, and then on
5 Friday the discussion just revolved around what today
6 would look like.
7 Q. Did I give you any instructions?
8 A. Be honest. And you're going to be nervous. Is
9 that an instruction?
10 Q. Did the attorneys or their representatives
11 instruct you that your testimony must be truthful and it
12 must be based on personal knowledge or observation, and
13 could not be based on speculation, conjecture or opinion?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Are you in possession of documented evidence
16 relating to your testimony?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Have you provided those documents to the
19 committee and the superintendent?
20 A. Yes. I haven't provided those documents to the
21 superintendent. I provided those documents to the
22 committee.
23 Q. Did you speak with the MacPherson committee --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. --whenitwasformed?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 404
1 A. And that's the committee I'm referring to as
2 providing documents to.
3 Q. Okay. When deciding which documents or evidence
4 should be provided to the MacPherson committee, were you
5 given instructions of what to provide?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. What was your standard for deciding what
8 to provide?
9 A. I had started documenting incidents that were
10 occurring in probably September. I was kind of keeping a
11 diary, because it was my way of processing what was going
12 on in the office, and it was a pretty tough time for me.
13 And so I had everything I had compiled. I just gave them
14 the binder. I didn't go through it. I didn't read it. I
15 didn't look at what I had been putting in there over the
16 time.
17 Q. Have you reviewed the report that came out of
18 the MacPherson investigation as it pertains to you?
19 A. I kind of went over it, skimmed over it, yes. I
20 didn't read it word for word.
21 Q. Do statements attributed to you in the
22 MacPherson report accurately reflect your testimony to
23 that committee?
24 A. There were a couple of statements I thought were
25 a little bit off. 99 percent of it was accurate.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 405
1 Q. Okay. For the people who have been saying there
2 were those inaccuracies, please provide an affidavit
3 describing the changes necessary to make your statements
4 true and correct.
5 A. Okay.
6 MR. LENHART: Okay. And that's all I have.
7 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Okay. Committee,
8 we're at that point in the proceedings for questions from
9 members of the committee.
10 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: I always have
11 questions.
12 MR. BROWN: Representative Zwonitzer.
13 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thank you,
14 Mr. Chairman.
15 FURTHEREXAMINATIONBYTHECOMMITTEE
16 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) As a previous
17 grant administrator for a state agency, where I spent a
18 lot of my time, and some I purposely made vague and some
19 you have to be really exact. So, in your opinion, these
20 grants you wrote that you had to be intentionally vague,
21 were you violating the spirit of the grant and acting
22 unethically or illegally to that level or at the time were
23 they -- you put some fuzzy words in a grant to make it
24 work. There's a black-and-white line there. Do you feel
25 you crossed it?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 406
1 A. Yes. I feel that what we were doing was
2 unethical, that we totally changed the intent of the
3 grant. I was also told that by -- from Jason Wood, who we
4 were working at CWC on the grant with, he was involved
5 with it. He also told me that what we were doing changed
6 the intent of the grant.
7 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Okay. Thanks.
8 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Committee, any other
9 questions? Representative Patton.
10 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE PATTON) More of a curiosity
11 for us on this side of the table. In writing of
12 appropriations, including grants, are the grants designed
13 in such a fashion a legislator might feel that they're
14 easy to follow, meaning that if there's a -- it's very
15 limited, or is there administrative latitude that gives a
16 purpose but not necessarily the details, and how you might
17 feel about -- about the two different ways of
18 draftsmanship?
19 A. That's an interesting question. I think when
20 you get right down to it, you have to stick with the
21 intent of the grant. We cannot change the intent of the
22 grant. It was awarded for a specific reason. Did it
23 explain word for word every program that we were going to
24 have, no. But it did specifically state that we would use
25 research-based practices that improved outcomes for
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 407
1 students with disabilities. It did specifically outline a
2 plan for hiring regional coaches that would work with
3 districts, and, based on their data and their needs
4 assessment, come up with an individualized professional
5 development plan. We were changing the grant to reflect
6 only using this leadership's initiatives as professional
7 development, so we would only be doing 3+8, writer's
8 workshop and Common Core.
9 Q. I have a follow-up. Help me out here with one
10 other piece that is just for my own knowledge bank, my
11 slow --
12 A. That'sfine.
13 Q. You use -- we talk about that kind of grant,
14 we're talking in terms of federal grants?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And should the legislature, the state
17 legislature, the group -- the federal grant is going to be
18 on a national 50-state scale plus probably some others,
19 but basically they're writing in one fashion. Should the
20 state legislature, then, help out by making a clearer
21 definition or a broader perspective?
22 A. If I'm interpreting this right, I believe that
23 you are talking about two different grants. The federal
24 Part B grant -- and I'm not a law person -- might be able
25 to be effected by state legislature laws that you enact.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 408
1 The SPDG grant was written with a sole purpose. It was
2 submitted to OSEP with a sole purpose, and I don't believe
3 that you can change the purpose of that grant.
4 REPRESENTATIVE PATTON: Thank you. That's
5 helpful.
6 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Representative
7 Stubson.
8 REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON: Thank you,
9 Mr. Chairman.
10 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE STUBSON) Miss Harper, just
11 follow-up on one point you just made, and my understanding
12 is in the grant application you talked about really
13 visualized training based upon a district's needs. Is
14 that kind of what you were saying?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then my understanding of SpLit was that it
17 was -- it was a standard program, the content was
18 essentially the same, it was rolled out in different
19 places around the state?
20 A. Yes. That's where we were changing the intent
21 of the grant.
22 REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Mr. Speaker.
23 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Thank you, Mr. Majority
24 Floor Leader. The grant -- it's a series of questions, and
25 may be easier just to ask them one at a time.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 409
1 REPRESENTATIVEBROWN: Youcanjustchair
2 your own series of questions and just go for it.
3 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) The grant money was an
4 Account 6321; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then we paid the money back out of Account
7 6320; is that right? At least --
8 A. I believe it was paid back out of 6320 and then
9 out of a state fund, and I'm not sure what the number was
10 at -- of that was.
11 Q. So we took state dollars, and then we took some
12 other federal dollars and paid back the SPDG grant; is
13 that what happened?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where did the money come from to do that? I
16 mean, what are we not spending dollars on because we had
17 to pay the money back?
18 A. The money from 6320, the intent of -- or 6320's
19 awarded to the State to provide special education -- to
20 work with the special education districts in schools --
21 work with the schools on special education -- I'm getting
22 tired. And so I -- I guess those were funds that we tap
23 into. I'm not sure about the gen ed funds.
24 Q. As I understand it, you took a percentage of the
25 people who attended who are special education people and
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 410
1 these special education funds, and the rest of it you paid
2 for out of general education funds?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How much do you pay back?
5 A. I'm not sure of the exact numbers. I think it
6 was maybe close to -- hmm. I would be just speculating.
7 I was going to say around $50,000.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. Could be more than that.
10 Q. Okay. Did you get any legislative authority or
11 report to any legislative body before you paid the money
12 back?
13 A. No. Not to my knowledge.
14 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representatives Zwonitzer.
15 REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER: Thank you,
16 Mr. Chair.
17 Q. (BY REPRESENTATIVE ZWONITZER) Why did you pay
18 the money back or -- in other words, what was the penalty
19 for not doing so?
20 A. Possibly losing the grant, doing something
21 that was illegal. Well, I guess illegal at the most,
22 unethical at the least. We did it per conversation with
23 Susan Weigert, who was our project officer.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Any other questions
25 from anybody? I'll read the superintendent's questions,
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 411
1 then.
2 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Has there been an audit by
3 the United States Department of Education, U.S. Office of
4 Inspector General or the U.S. General Accounting Office to
5 determine that the use of the SPDG funds were used in an
6 allowable way?
7 A. Nottomyknowledge.
8 Q. Do you have a formal opinion from anyone at the
9 U.S. Department of Education supporting or otherwise
10 informing anyone of your concerns about SpLit?
11 A. We had the e-mail that Susan Weigert sent.
12 Q. Where in the law is it required that these funds
13 be used exclusively for special ed teachers?
14 A. I don't know that it is required in law, but it
15 was required as a part of the grant.
16 Q. In Wyoming are special education students found
17 in general classrooms?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Isn't this required by the least restrictive
20 environment of IDEA?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Wasn't the promotion of SpLit targeted at
23 teachers with IDEA students in their classrooms?
24 A. The teachers would have had IDEA students in
25 their classrooms.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 412
1 Q. Where did locate -- locate -- let me read this.
2 Where can you locate the limitations that you described in
3 the federal law or federal regulations?
4 A. WhatdidIdescribe?
5 Q. I think you described the grant prohibited it,
6 but you didn't know about the federal law, but I don't
7 know --
8 A. I'm not sure I know how to answer that question.
9 Or what they're looking for.
10 Q. Isn't the 3+8 program designed to assist
11 students in performing better on PAWS?
12 A. It is.
13 Q. Don't special education students also
14 participate in PAWS?
15 A. Special education students do participate in
16 PAWS.
17 Q. Is the T2T approach still being used by the
18 Department in delivering professional development?
19 A. I can only speak for what I do. And I am not
20 currently using that approach.
21 Q. So you were responsible for making sure there
22 was SpEd content in the SpLit program, and you, in fact,
23 did insert it; isn't that true?
24 A. We had -- I was responsible for that. The
25 presenters who did present the SpEd part of the weekend
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 413
1 workshops were all presenters that were hired and
2 contracted through Sheryl Lain. The conference was
3 approximately, I don't know, a 12-hour conference, and
4 maybe our SpEd teachers had a total of 20 minutes to
5 present during that time.
6 Q. Isn't it also true that many, perhaps almost
7 all, general education teachers encounter SpEd students
8 through their tenure?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And we have heard from Ms. Dobler that SpEd
11 funds can be used to introduce SpEd concepts to general
12 education teachers, so weren't you the one responsible to
13 see that this occurred in a manner consistent with federal
14 requirements?
15 A. I would have been the one responsible for
16 overseeing that as the project director of the grant, but
17 I did not have any control over that. Sheryl Lain and
18 Christine Steele decided what would be taught and by whom.
19 Q. Did you or anyone else lie to OSEP about how the
20 funds were to be used?
21 A. IdidnotlietoOSEP.
22 Q. How about the anyone else part?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You said you brought the SPDG grant to an
25 outside attorney. Who was that attorney?
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 414
1 A. SteveKline.
2 Q. Did you ever express your concerns to
3 Mr. Shumway, attorney for the Superintendent of Public
4 Instruction at the time?
5 A. I expressed concerns to Sam Shumway about
6 other -- other things that were occurring with the weekend
7 workshops. I don't believe I expressed those concerns to
8 Sam.
9 Q. It sounds like you held strong opinions,
10 correct?
11 A. That's for your interpretation.
12 Q. Mr. Lewis also held strong opinions, true?
13 Were you able to air your opinion -- you were --
14 but you were able to air your opinions; isn't that
15 correct?
16 A. I did not feel that I was able to air my
17 opinions.
18 Q. And there were times when your opinion carried
19 the day and sometimes Mr. Lewis's opinions carried the
20 day; isn't that also true?
21 A. Carriedtheday?
22 Q. Idon'tknow.
23 A. I don't understand the question.
24 Q. I think -- well -- if you -- if you had
25 problems, why didn't you take your concerns either to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 415
1 Mrs. Hill or to her attorney?
2 A. Hmm. They -- we -- we had a definite chain of
3 command, and it was made very apparent through her
4 leadership team, through Cindy's leadership team, that we
5 were to go to them with our concerns.
6 Q. Did you follow your chain of command?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then did I understand your testimony
9 correctly, that you were teaching Common Core standards
10 in --
11 A. As --
12 Q. -- Mrs. Hill's SpLit program?
13 A. Yes.
14 SPEAKERLUBNAU: That'sallofthe
15 questions that Mrs. Hill had, plus the one that I just
16 added there at the end.
17 SuperintendentHill.
18 Q. (BY SPEAKER LUBNAU) Wasn't it the law that you
19 were required to teach Common Core standards?
20 A. I can't answer that question.
21 Q. Are you familiar with the special ed -- the SpEd
22 improvement data?
23 A. There's a lot of SpEd data out there. I don't
24 know what Cindy's referring to.
25 Q. It says, "If yes, please share."
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 416
1 Are you aware 62 schools in AYP then SpEd
2 population in 2011?
3 A. I was not here in 2011.
4 Q. Are you aware there were only 42 schools in AYP
5 in 2012, even though the bar was raised for school?
6 A. I can't answer that question.
7 Q. By what authority did you move the funds from
8 6320 to another account?
9 A. I did not actually move those funds. They were
10 moved by somebody else in our division.
11 Q. By what authority is it considered illegal, as
12 you stated?
13 A. To move the funds?
14 Q. I think considered illegal was to spend the
15 funds.
16 A. That was a comment that I believe I made in just
17 saying I thought what we were doing had the potential of
18 being illegal, so I hired counsel and I called OSEP. I
19 don't know that I actually said it was illegal.
20 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Okay. Superintendent Hill
21 any more questions?
22 SUPERINTENDENT HILL: I thank you,
23 Mr. Speaker. I do not.
24 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Those are all the
25 questions for the day. Thank you very much, Miss Harper.
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 417
1 I appreciate you coming in and spending a late evening with
2 us. And thank you for coming in under subpoena to do this.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you for following up on
4 it. I appreciate it. All of you.
5 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Absent any objections, we
6 are in recess until --
7 MR. OBRECHT: Mr. Speaker -- my
8 microphone's strong. Sorry.
9 We -- who -- members of committee who have
10 exhibit notebooks, leave them here, if you would, please.
11 Criss Carlson's going to go through and mark some exhibits
12 for ease of reference tomorrow. Thank you.
13 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Representative Throne.
14 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: I assume we -- we
15 can go off the record.
16 SPEAKER LUBNAU: No, stay on the record.
17 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Stay on the record?
18 Okay. Can we leave everything here?
19 MR. OBRECHT: Yes, you can.
20 REPRESENTATIVE THRONE: Thank you.
21 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Is there anything else
22 to --
23 MR. OBRECHT: I'm not promising it will be
24 here in the morning.
25 SPEAKER LUBNAU: Is there anything else to
Wyoming Reporting Service, Inc. 1.800.444.2826 Select Investigative Committee 418
1 come before the committee? We're scheduled to reconvene
2 bright and early at 8:00 tomorrow morning. See you then.
3 Thank you, everybody.
4 (Hearing proceedings recessed
5 8:21 p.m., January 6, 2014.)
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1 CERTIFICATE
2
3 I, KATHY J. KENDRICK, a Registered Professional
4 Reporter, do hereby certify that I reported by machine
5 shorthand the foregoing proceedings contained herein,
6 constituting a full, true and correct transcript.
7 Dated this 13th day of January, 2014.
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