Interviewing Richard Shusterman: Part I

Action, Criticism & Theory for Music Education

the refereed scholarly journal of the

Thomas A. Regelski, Editor Wayne Bowman, Associate Editor Darryl A. Coan, Publishing Editor

For contact information, please point your Web Browser to: ACT Journal: http://act.maydaygroup.org or MayDay Site: http://www.maydaygroup.org

Electronic Article Väkevä, L. (2000). Interviewing Richard Shusterman: Part I. Action, Criticism, and Theory for Music Education. Vol. 1, #1 (April 2002).

© Lauri Väkevä, 2000 All rights reserved. The content of this article is the sole responsibility of the author. The ACT Journal and the MayDay Group are not liable for any legal actions which may arise involving the article's content, including but not limited to, copyright infringement. Action, Criticism & Theory for Music Education Electronic Article Page 2 of 10 ______

LLVV::: There seems to be a general since the mid-1980's. From the 1950's to Interviewing Richard renaissance of pragmatism gaining hold the mid-1980's pragmatism was very Shusterman within many disciplines, including much eclipsed in the States by analytic Part I aesthetics and educational philosophy. philosophy imported from England and Why do you think pragmatism has the continent (e.g. Carnap). However, in Lauri Väkevä attained new popularity both sides of the areas like education, which were very [email protected] Atlantic? Is there a need for these central to Dewey’s interests but revitalized pragmatic standpoints, completely marginal to analytic especially in current theory of art and in philosophy, there remained throughout related fields? Are there competing this time a core of philosophers who This part of the interview was made via positions in the new stream of pragmatic email in May 2000. Dr. Shusterman thought, e.g., those following Rorty and I differ not only from Rorty kindly replied to a other relativists contra "traditional" but from all the other series of questions concerning the role pragmatists? Do you think that pragmatists I mention by of pragmatism in contemporary postmodern philosophy and classical insisting on the value of the philosophy, the new pragmatic standpoints cohere enough to non-linguistic dimension of experience approaches to John Dewey’s thought, justify these positions? Is there a deep pragmatist aesthetics in art and music contradiction in doing pragmatic were faithful to the pragmatist tradition, education, and the Finnish-translated philosophy in analytic terms? but they had little influence on the main book, Pragmatist Aesthetics (Shusterman philosophical scene in America. (I 1997a). RRSS::: Yes, there has been a significant should mention that Dewey’s great revival of pragmatism in the United interest in education was not only States and to some extent also in Europe expressed in theoretical writings -- many

Väkevä, L. (2000). Interviewing Richard Shusterman: Part I. Action, Criticism, and Theory for Music Education. Vol. 1, #1, (April 2002). http://act.maydaygroup.org/articles/ShustermanPt1v1_1.pdf Action, Criticism & Theory for Music Education Electronic Article Page 3 of 10 ______articles and his famous book Democracy school (especially Adorno and Walter Hilary Putnam) are those who, like and Education (LW 9), but also in Benjamin). Continental philosophy myself, turned from analytic philosophy practical work. He set up a very seemed to deal with larger, more to pragmatism. These two philosophers influential experimental school in politically relevant questions and issues and Nelson Goodman and Joseph Chicago.) that analytic philosophy seemed to Margolis (also important analytic I first got deeply interested in almost completely ignore. But the style philosophers of art who then expressed pragmatism when I came to teach in the of much continental theory seemed too strong pragmatist tendencies) are all United States in the mid-eighties. I think unclear, inadequately argued, and older philosophers who have had a very the main reasons for my interest in undisciplined for my tastes. Pragmatism, helpful influence on my work, even if I pragmatism are typical for many as James and Dewey practiced it, seemed very often disagree with them. Putnam philosophers. First, there was the feeling to provide the model of how to combine and Margolis are far more interested in that analytic philosophy was not making the clear arguments and common sense traditional metaphysical questions than the sort of progress it had initially hoped of analytic philosophy together with the Rorty or I am, and they are far less for. It was still good as a critical tool and large and socially important issues of subjectivistic and voluntaristic than method, and its best work seemed to be continental philosophy. My book Rorty. But I also do not share the in progressively criticizing its own Pragmatist Aesthetics (Shusterman extremity of Rorty’s sense of founding theories, notions, and projects: 1997a), by treating particular problems contingency and idiosyncrasy. As I those enunciated by G.E. Moore, and topics in the philosophy of art, also argue in a number of my books, Rorty’s Bertrand Russell, the early Wittgenstein, tries to show how pragmatism is a very treatment of contingency confuses what Frege, the Vienna Circle. But secondly, fruitful middle way between the analytic is not absolutely necessary with what is there was the excitement I felt about and continental traditions of philosophy. merely arbitrary and accidental. He thus continental theories of poststructuralism The most influential pragmatists does not give adequate attention to the (Foucault, Derrida) and the Frankfurt- in the United States (Richard Rorty and power and justifiability of social norms,

Väkevä, L. (2000). Interviewing Richard Shusterman: Part I. Action, Criticism, and Theory for Music Education. Vol. 1, #1, (April 2002). http://act.maydaygroup.org/articles/ShustermanPt1v1_1.pdf Action, Criticism & Theory for Music Education Electronic Article Page 4 of 10 ______and to the biological nature of human are in some ways postmodern, but they LLVV::: What about the role of Dewey’s beings. He tends too easily to dismiss are not nihilistic or relativistic in the aesthetics today? What does Dewey's both the social sciences and natural sense that anything goes or that any view aesthetics have to offer for the current art sciences. He focuses on literature as the is as justifiable as any other. Though in world? What difference would it make if way to self-salvation and social some of writings I have, for polemical we thought of the arts pragmatically? improvement. I differ not only from and didactic purposes, sharply contrasted What implications do you see that it Rorty but from all the other pragmatists I analytic aesthetics to pragmatist would hold for art education? What mention by insisting on the value of the aesthetics on several key points, I don’t about the art politics in general? non-linguistic dimension of experience think it is impossible to combine analytic (the other philosophers tend to equate philosophy and pragmatism, especially if RRSS::: In some ways, Dewey’s aesthetics experience with linguistic experience and we think of analytic philosophy more as seem obsolete even for the artworld of Rorty rejects the notion of experience a method or style of argumentation. the time in which he wrote his famous altogether) and on the importance of Goodman, Putnam, Rorty, Margolis, book Art as Experience (LW 10). attention to a bodily dimension of Stanley Cavell, and myself combine ideas Though he wrote in the 1930's his taste philosophy, which I partly pursue and methods of analytic philosophy with in plastic art did not really extend past through the notion of philosophy as a certain general pragmatist orientations turn of the century post-impressionism. way of life. that the classic pragmatism of Peirce, He never really came to grips with The other significant area where James, and Dewey made famous: cubism and other very influential my work is very different from theirs is orientations that are less about breaking movements. Similarly, while Dewey in my attention to popular art as a things down and tracing them back to affirmed in principle the right of people valuable source for reviving aesthetic their ultimate foundation and more about to enjoy popular art and suggested its experience and directing new energy to looking forward to see how their potential to give aesthetic experience to social and political causes. My positions consequences work in practice. those people, he himself did nothing in

Väkevä, L. (2000). Interviewing Richard Shusterman: Part I. Action, Criticism, and Theory for Music Education. Vol. 1, #1, (April 2002). http://act.maydaygroup.org/articles/ShustermanPt1v1_1.pdf Action, Criticism & Theory for Music Education Electronic Article Page 5 of 10 ______his writings to make a real case for the fully embodied experience, in the Aesthetic Experience (1997c) and further aesthetic value and legitimacy of the appreciation of art. Most contemporary in Performing Live and in French book popular arts. He seemed to recognize aesthetics has tended to be overly of 1999 (La fin de l’experience that popular art would need to be intellectualist, emphasizing art as a esthetique). Dewey is important in seriously discussed and written about in symbol system or an object of mere affirming the value of aesthetic order to gain adequate cultural cognitive interpretation, rather than an experience and in insisting on its natural legitimacy, but he himself failed to object of deeply felt experience and roots, but (as I argue in my book in provide such writing. To fill in these intense pleasure. This stress on the Finnish and in these newer texts), he disturbing gaps in pragmatist aesthetics, I power and value of aesthetic experience makes a mistake by trying to simply had to develop my own theories that is I think very important for the define art as experience and by tending relate to popular art and contemporary art contemporary artworld, which seems to to view aesthetic experience simply as practices. I explain this more in detail in be losing its appeal for the general public foundational historic constant without Pragmatist Aesthetics and my new book because of its failure to create powerful adequately recognizing its historical and Performing Live, but also in an article aesthetic experience. I discuss this in a cultural modifications. Nonetheless, “Popular Art and many of the philosophers who Dewey’s democratic openness and his Education” that is correctly view art and music as social interest in integrating art and life are very also published in practices of signification, fail to explain pertinent and valuable for art today, Finnish (1997b). or even recognize sufficiently the ways including the idea of the art of living. What in which these signifying practices are inspired me about embedded into wider cultural and LLVV::: In the 1990's there appeared Dewey’s aesthetics social practices... pragmatic tendencies in Anglo-American is his stressing of philosophy of music education in the the value of experience, deeply felt and controversial paper called The End of form of praxial philosophies. Among

Väkevä, L. (2000). Interviewing Richard Shusterman: Part I. Action, Criticism, and Theory for Music Education. Vol. 1, #1, (April 2002). http://act.maydaygroup.org/articles/ShustermanPt1v1_1.pdf Action, Criticism & Theory for Music Education Electronic Article Page 6 of 10 ______other things, these standpoints want to usually called platonism in musical Pragmatist aesthetics therefore distance themselves from the aesthetic aesthetics. In contrast, I think it is more tries to go a bit beyond the internalist positions, and center on the notion of fruitful and accurate to adopt a more approach by recognizing the wider social music as a form of praxis, or as pragmatic praxial view that treats music issues that frame artistic practices of signifying practice. Another thing these as a practice. For pragmatist aesthetics, it creation and reception. That is why my positions suggest is to pay attention to is clear that we have no musical works discussion of popular art and of rap is the world musics and popular music without practices of playing and quick to consider the major social and practices as suitable materials for music listening, which themselves are political issues that they raise. By education. How do you see these embedded in wider social practices. focusing on popular music and different developments in relation to the There is, of course, a musical artworld as world musics, we find a good way to development in the general theories of well as the visual arts’ artworld. Analytic break out of our habit of thinking about art? aesthetics has been talking since the late music in terms of transcendental works sixties about the ”artworld” and its of genius so as to understand them better RRSS::: Unfortunately, music education is practices. But many of the philosophers in terms of practices of creating, playing, not my specific field and I do not know who correctly view art and music as and hearing. So I think you are right that the work of the American philosophers social practices of signification, fail to there is a logical connection between of music education. Still I can easily explain or even recognize sufficiently the practice-oriented aesthetic theory and a understand their interest in turning from ways in which these signifying practices greater openness to musical expression traditional views of musical aesthetics are embedded into wider cultural and beyond the classical and established that focus on the identity and sanctity of social practices that determine to some modernist tradition. My position (as the musical work, which is therefore extent the nature and possibilities of our expressed in Pragmatist Aesthetics and often considered to be an ideal art practices. Performing Live) is of course a position transcendental form. This position is that emphasizes art as practice, but I

Väkevä, L. (2000). Interviewing Richard Shusterman: Part I. Action, Criticism, and Theory for Music Education. Vol. 1, #1, (April 2002). http://act.maydaygroup.org/articles/ShustermanPt1v1_1.pdf Action, Criticism & Theory for Music Education Electronic Article Page 7 of 10 ______argue that praxial theories too often tend chapter of a book that had 9 chapters in dancing) to rap. The genre was still not to ignore the dimension of experience, so its original English version. I think my overly commercialized, there was still the I insist especially on that dimension, as book got more media attention than most living tradition of Grandmaster Flash and did Dewey. other books in aesthetics because of my African Bambaattaa, but also the most treatment of rap. I published my book important new work of Run DMC, LLVV::: Your Finnish-translated book dealt already back in 1992 when rap was still Public Enemy, BDP, and Ice-T. But with a considerably controversial subject reasonably fresh and was just beginning secondly, I thought that rap was of rap music. Do you see a larger to make its mark in the cultural extremely interesting as an art form and tendency of choosing study objects from consciousness of society (even if it had especially interesting for the philosophy the traditionally repressed or otherwise in fact existed since the mid-seventies – I of art. Rap was particularly exemplary of avoided repertory, like e.g. Afro- in fact first published a long article on some of the most important and American cultures? Are there any rap in 1991). Rap grew to be a distinctive themes of pragmatist parallels with the critical tradition- worldwide phenomenon, and I think the aesthetics: that the creation and oriented approaches here? media attention and potential probably appreciation of art should be actively helped get my book translated into embodied, that art’s cognitive and RRSS::: Everyone who interviews me several languages: French, German, practical functions should be more always asks me about my choice of rap Finnish, Polish, Portuguese, Japanese, significantly recognized and emphasized music as a subject for a whole chapter of Korean, Slovak. But I had no idea of this (which also means that art can have an my book. Almost every newspaper when I was writing the book. I knew effective practical use in education), that article about my book had either ”rap” nothing of marketing and did not choose popular art can claim and deserve or ”hip hop” in the article title (almost rap for marketing reasons. I studied it aesthetic legitimacy, that questions of none used the word ”pragmatism” in because of two kinds of reasons: First, at aesthetic legitimacy involve also wider their title), even though rap is only one that time, I very much liked listening (and

Väkevä, L. (2000). Interviewing Richard Shusterman: Part I. Action, Criticism, and Theory for Music Education. Vol. 1, #1, (April 2002). http://act.maydaygroup.org/articles/ShustermanPt1v1_1.pdf Action, Criticism & Theory for Music Education Electronic Article Page 8 of 10 ______social and political issues that aesthetics important to emphasize the more positive concrete examples in my book. So, cannot therefore ignore. messages of rap, taught by the more because rap seemed so clearly to Rap makes all these points in positive manifest the various ways. It insists on the dimension “knowledge” ...my pragmatist aesthetic is not themes I of movement and dance for its rappers). In its directed against the established wanted to appreciation, and on the transformative struggle to genres of high art, only against stress in my power of aesthetic experience; it claims acquire cultural their frequent claims of pragmatist to be not only music and poetry but also recognition, rap exclusivity. aesthetics philosophy and a kind of non-technical has often made (including the science which can be useful for life; rap the point that political and social idea that such an aesthetics should deal artists often identify themselves as oppression are the structuring with contemporary aesthetic forms and teachers and rap affirms the notion of background of the failure to appreciate not just old and already established ”Edutainment” (education through the aesthetic potential of their music; and works of art), rap seemed a natural entertainment), which is the name of an rappers also make it clear that their choice of genre. I never imagined that album by KRS-One. Rap has been used struggle for cultural and aesthetic rap would become the center of media to teach reading and writing in some recognition is part of a larger struggle to attention to the book. Perhaps I was urban schools; and it has also been active improve the general social status of the naïve, but I was surely lucky that the politically, causing even Presidents of the black urban youth population from public controversy over rap contributed U.S. to engage in critical debate with rap which the music originated. Success in a to interest in my aesthetic theory. representatives. (Of course, gangsta rap musical career can mean money that can Leaving aside the issue of being has also taught some bad lessons that then provide opportunity for wider controversial, I think that it is important have emerged in several famous shooting emancipation. All these points are to study cultural forms that have not yet incidents between rap stars; so it is developed in much more detail and with received adequate aesthetic attention, even

Väkevä, L. (2000). Interviewing Richard Shusterman: Part I. Action, Criticism, and Theory for Music Education. Vol. 1, #1, (April 2002). http://act.maydaygroup.org/articles/ShustermanPt1v1_1.pdf Action, Criticism & Theory for Music Education Electronic Article Page 9 of 10 ______if these cultural forms are not at all qualities, values, and strategies of this significant. Moreover, it is important to repressed. Take American country music, music and that also explains how some study these less legitimized forms by for example, which is the topic of a long of our traditional philosophical considering them in aesthetic terms of chapter of my new book, Performing prejudices blind us to what is worthwhile meaning and value, in much the same Live (Cornell University Press, 2000). in country music. In the same book, I way that we study the canonized works Country music is the music of the also do a similar job of critical but of high art, rather than simply mainstream majority in America and was sympathetic and reconstructive analysis approaching these popular but less never censured or publicly attacked in the for a variety of contemporary body legitimized forms of cultural expression way that rap has been. But country disciplines that have an important and merely in terms of sociological or music, even more than rap, is generally explicit aesthetic aspect. ethnographic analysis – as we typically scorned by intellectual culture as Let me conclude by reminding readers do for the cultural expressions of alien or aesthetically worthless kitsch, and thus that my pragmatist aesthetic is not primitive cultures. The popular arts are fails to receive serious philosophical- directed against the established genres of part of our lives and can play a profound aesthetic analysis that could better reveal high art, only against their frequent role in our experience, so we should its value. Because there is some country claims of exclusivity. As you know, my enable them to play this role more music I find worthwhile, I wanted to book also contains the analysis of the successfully through aesthetic criticism understand and better appreciate the high modernist poetry of T.S. Eliot. I and interpretation of those arts. We source of appeal of this music, rather just think that so much aesthetic analysis cannot assume, as some educational than just assuming the consensus view is devoted on the established genres of theorists have argued, that these arts are that condemns country as worthless and high art that it is important also to study so clear and transparent to everyone that shallow. So in terms of the pragmatist forms of aesthetic expression that are as they do not need to be explained and theory of William James, I develop an yet less legitimized and studied, though should have no place in our school argument that shows the aesthetic they are socially and culturally very curriculum. But I make this point more

Väkevä, L. (2000). Interviewing Richard Shusterman: Part I. Action, Criticism, and Theory for Music Education. Vol. 1, #1, (April 2002). http://act.maydaygroup.org/articles/ShustermanPt1v1_1.pdf