TRANSCRIPT OF SENIOR MINISTER ’S MEDIA INTERVIEW ON 2 MAY 2011 AT 6 PM Q: “The opposition has brought up the ministers’ salaries again. The question can it be the other way around for salaries to strengthen the link with the average Singaporean?” Mr Goh: “It depends on who you are targeting. We are targeting the top performers in who are in the private sector as well as those in the public service to bring into politics. So we therefore use the formula which has been debated many times over many elections as to the ministers’ pay. That means the higher earners and you get the average and so on and give a discount, you see. We can peg it to the people in the lower income group and depends over the pay is. Supposing you peg it to 2,000 as an average, then you times ten or times 100, that depends on what it is. So the question is can you get the right people to come? As opposition has mentioned, it is quite a high salary, we are not able to get private sector people to come. You go and examine the pay of the Chairman, CEOs of the public-listed companies in Singapore - Keppel, DBSBank, OCBC and UOB and so on, Sembawang and all that - every CEO is earning about twice the ministers’ pay, even more. CapitaLand easily they earn about S$10 million. Why should they come and join us in politics? So, therefore, the formula has worked, it has been issue, the key is are we producing results? That is the key.” Q: “Is there a better way to communicate with the majority population who don’t seem to understand?” Mr Goh: “The majority of the population is not very concerned. All they want is can we produce jobs for them? Can we look after their medical care? Can the medical care be affordable? Can we cope with the cost of living? Can we deliver good housing at affordable prices? These are the issues which are of concern to them and these are the issues which the government is addressing which I will come back to later on. So the ministers’ pay is a favourite flogging horse for opposition and it has been flogged for so many times in so many GEs. Of course, it cost us some votes. But by and large the people understand. What else?” Q: “Sir, may be you can tell us more about your reaction to Osama’s death.” Mr Goh: “MFA has issued a statement, in a sense we are relieved that Osama is gone but that does not mean that’s the end of the problem. You may see reactions from the Osama people, the terrorists may not be very happy, so we do not know but at least it is a relief that he has been targeted and he has been taken care of.” Q: “A NSP candidate has said that we should... the army should be downsized and should rely more on airborne and restructure our defence...?” Mr Goh: “Okay, I think that question is useful for BG Tan Chuan Jin to answer. It is an important question which you asked and I think it is time we in Marine Parade zoom in on the manifesto of NSP and this is a very important issue which I will leave it to Tan Chuan Jin to answer.” Q: “You said that the PAP, oh!...” Mr Tan: “Well I think... like I said in my rally speech, I am actually quite surprised because I think what has been quite clear in terms of the lessons learnt in the recent years especially in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in southern Lebanon has been that you need the Army to play a very important role. It doesn’t mean that the Air Force and the Navy doesn’t play a critical role and I think in the SAF has always been building a balanced capability to do what we need to do and I am actually very surprised because the lessons are actually quite clear. In fact, what is quite apparent, the world went through a phase, I think, post First Gulf War where they felt that remote sensors, remote systems, because of the capabilities that air force had developed, technology could replace people. But you could see that that rapidly was found to be wanting, even in Bosnia when the Americans carried out a lot of bombing missions but without committing the Army or ground forces, they actually were able to target very few despite the technological edge. So what has become actually very clear is that the Army plays a very important role. But what is actually I think surprising is that they are prepared in spite of what is clear to throw this part out. To say ‘oh let’s cut the national service, let’s reduce the army size’. This is popular and sometimes they’ll cite countries like Taiwan and Europe but the circumstances are very different and actually we talked to a lot of military professionals. I just came back from a meeting in previous job from a meeting with the Germans. They used to have 4,000 over main battle tanks. When I was the Head of Army Plans, we purchased Leopard tanks because they downsized, they are now left with couple of hundred tanks and a lot of them are actually uncomfortable with the fact that the military has been reduced to this size. The German Army I think is about 60,000-70,000-strong. “Now, Europe perhaps, could cite NATO, could cite the peace dividend from the halt of the Cold War but can you definitively say that peace will continue forever and what happens if something arise. You can’t build an army overnight. So for us I think every country needs to decide for itself. I think it is probably not fair also to comment on other countries but for our needs, I think it is quite clear that the Army remains a critical component as with the Air Force and Navy. So I think what that to me shows is the length at which they are prepared to go to just to get into Parliament, to throw out popular options be it in the economy side of the house, or especially in this case, the national security which I think it is important to find out because while they come out with a lot of calculations, frankly it doesn’t go hold water. And it certainly goes against conventional wisdom of what we have learnt, certainly in the past 10-15 years.” Mr Goh: “But I would not even bother to answer in such details like BG Tan Chuan Jin because he is from the Army. I would just say go and ask NSP reduce to what size. Please tell me. You say reduce it by 100 men, I say that is no problem. They say reduce by half, I say then you have got a problem, isn’t it? Reduce it to 15 months NS, do you know the consequences? Our National Service pool is getting smaller and smaller because of the lower birth rate. So if you reduce it to 15 months, what are the consequences? So I would in fact attack them on this. Please give me consequences of your suggestion. It is very good to just say reduce ministers’ salaries, reduce Armed Forces and so on and put us on the defensive. But I have been the Defence Minister, I am that all defensive of what we do. So I would turn it around and say what details do you have? I am prepared to listen. I am not deaf. I am prepared to listen. Reduce army to what size? So I think go and ask them please, okay” 3

Q: “You said that the PAP now has gone on the offensive rather than to try to defend its position like what you have done over the past few days. So are you suggesting the PAP has been a bit treating the opposition with rather without gloves or...?” Mr Goh: “In the battle, there are several phases. Phase One is when the track record of the PAP is being examined by the people, by the Opposition. And of course, it is the Opposition’s job to try and attack us from all angles. It is their job and to exploit all the weaknesses maybe in our armour. So in Phase One, PAP has to explain and defend ourselves and of course in Phase One, the Opposition is doing all the boxing, all the pummelling. And of course, we are doing all the defending. So we are now entering Phase Two because election is not about boxing. It is about basic issues. So Phase Two now takes us to what the real issues are, not the track record of the PAP but what the real issues are tomorrow? This is where I have the advantage of in the battle, but not in the thick of battle. So I can step aside and examine the issues which are most pertinent to Singaporeans. So in my view, I think the most pertinent issues which Prime Minister Lee and his team will have to face after the election will be the ability to create jobs. Secondly, to tackle the cost of living. That is the real issue. Third, housing. That is the real issue because housing for the new buyers, for those in the, shall we say, young people in the middle-income group. If you above the ceiling after one, two years, it’s not easy to get the cash to pay. So you would have to address this. I think on the longer term, he has to address the ageing population issue and of course on a continuous basis he has to address education, he has to address healthcare costs. Healthcare cost is not a big issue today. The healthcare cost will be an issue in the next election and the one after because there are more and more old people as you can see. Healthcare cost would go up. So these are the real issues and in Round Two, the PAP would have to shift the debate on these issues. But the Opposition should not just criticise. What other solutions? Anybody can criticize but what are your solutions? See, they come up with the solution, then they can criticize them, is that workable? To reduce the Army, is that workable? So then you enter into a debate. So I want to shift from my position in the battle but not in the thick of it to actually engaging on issues and secondly I want to also focus on the ability of whoever is in charge of Singapore to deliver on a result on these issues. So this is where the people become very important. “I used the term First-Rate Government but that is a bit too vague. Let us now be practical. Who are the people? In the PAP who will run the government after the election. Who are the people from the Opposition parties should there be a strange result and then they are in government? So in the case of the PAP, which I mean we expect to win, so I don’t think there will be an opposition government. PM needs a core team. He needs a core team. When I was Prime Minister, I had a core team. My core team was Ong Teng Cheong, , Dhanabalan and . Those were my core team. Remember that at one time, Lee Hsien Loong had lymphoma; Ong Teng Cheong also had cancer. So as a PM, I was very, very worried because the core team which I had have two pillars crumbling because of cancer. So Tony Tan and Dhanabalan had actually resigned from the Cabinet to have their own interest outside, so I had no choice but to call them back. And Tony Tan and Dhanabalan recognized the importance of the core team. I had two pillars which were in the sense medically taken off for a while, so they came back to help me and then, of course, later on when I rebuilt the team with Jayakumar, Wong Kan 4

Seng, of course Lee Hsien Loong recovered then those two left again. So let’s examine in the coming on 8th of May after the election when the dust has settled, who will be in the core team? And that is key to Singapore. You have Lee Hsien Loong, his other core members Mr , George . There are other core members but these are the three core members who are very important. Of course, Tharman will become a core member. Tharman is still new but in time to come, he’ll develop into a core member. So for the time being, these are the three key figures for him. “On foreign policies, Minister advises the Prime Minister on foreign policies and of course, PM has his own views, they interact but basically the Foreign Minister advises him. So he is a very core member. So in the election, if say one GRC is lost, as MM said we can accept the result. I agree with that. If one GRC is lost, we can accept. No I don’t think they are going to lose one. But my view is if you lose Aljunied, that’s a different matter. I have given my views and that George Yeo is too important a person for the Cabinet to lose. So you have a core team, you lose George Yeo, then I think it is a very big loss to Singapore and to Singaporeans, not to Aljunied. Aljunied without George Yeo, you lose it I mean we just will be very sad but the result is of not great consequence to Singapore. You lose George Yeo, there is consequence for Singapore. So you need to have this core team and put names down to the core team. Don’t just talk generally but who are the core members who implement policies, to come out with policies the day after elections. So from my position, I look at the interests of Singaporeans. I say okay elections a lot of excitement, a lot of allegations, a lot of punching, counter punching by both sides but the day after the election when life goes back to normal, how do we make sure that Singaporeans can have a good life and can have their problems resolved. In fact, I spoke to PM before I came, I asked him what are the issues which he would attend to after the elections. So he told me cost of living is the real issue. He has got to find a solution to it and he said housing. He recognized that what you call the sandwich class, if you like. And of course, also the others. But he got to somehow find a way to solve the problems. It is not so easy but he must find a way to solve their problems. And he is also worry about healthcare cost in the longer term. So..yeap?” Q: “Should George Yeo should the PAP team be voted out, does the PAP have a person in mind, a perfect candidate in mind to replace George Yeo as Foreign Minister?” Mr Goh: “At the moment, no, but, of course, you have to find somebody.” Q: “So at the moment do you don’t have.” Mr Goh: “I do not know because it’s for PM and the thought hasn’t come to our mind that George Yeo will lose. Not at this moment but you must always have a Foreign Minister. The question is people should know if you go through who will be a good Foreign Minister as good as George Yeo. And as I said the other day, George Yeo is the middle of negotiating very delicate agreements with our neighbours, Indonesia and Malaysia and the point is you vote out George Yeo, what mistake has he made, ask yourselves. You can take a minister, you can criticize him for not delivering perhaps on housing, on transport. Like can say vote him out because he let Mas Selamat escape. So George Yeo, what has he done to deserve 5

this? And he’s a core member. I have run the government, I know. We need a core team. So we have got to go down to basic core team and the core team is four or five people. The other ministers are important, but you need a core team. So for PM as you can see his core team will be himself, Teo Chee Hean and George Yeo. I am not saying people like Wong Kan Seng are not members, but they are self-renewing themselves you see.” Q: “What’s the meaning of core? How integral, I mean critical is core?” Mr Goh: “When you have a building, you have core pillars right and you have other pillars which are actually decorative. You can knock down the other pillars and the building will not collapse, but if you knock down the core pillar, then the building will collapse. So let’s say the building has four core pillars, you knock down one, but buildings will not collapse, but would the building be strong enough? You knock down two pillars, the building may collapse you see.” Q: “So they are core because of the job scope that they do?” Mr Goh: “Because of the job scope, plus the person’s intellectual ability, his competence and his ability to deliver results. That is the meaning of core and somebody whom you trust the judgment of. So when we have core members, it is the judgment by trust. Arguing technocratically solutions we can find, we can debate, we get the best solution, but in many instances, it’s judgment. You go this way, you go the other way, then we debate and so on. Then I’ll say yes, this person has been giving good advice, we take the advice. I have worked with George Yeo, he was a member of my team, but he was not yet the core team because he was a new member. So I helped to build this core team for PM Lee, therefore I feel very strongly that Singaporeans do not think of their own interests. They do not think of their own interests, they just think of putting opposition, which is a separate interest, that’s a separate problem. I am not against that, but I am saying whatever you do, that is going to effect on your life after that. So I am approaching this from the point of core team.” Q: “Senior Minister what made you change your mind to comment on other people outside Marine Parade?" Mr Goh: “As a rule, I said I prefer to have a clean election and I would not want to comment on others outside and was my PPS, so I would not want to go into the reasons why it is so, neither do I want to comment further because he was an able, dedicated and loyal PPS and if I were to go further, now elaborating, I probably will hurt him further and damage him further. So I would not want to, unless I am compelled to. Better let him try and focus on his economic policies and let the others counter his economic policies. That is good enough.” Q: “But what made you ...” Mr Goh: “As I said, I would not want to elaborate further. If I comment further then he will come back, then I have got to explain why and that is going to damage him. So I will not want to do so.. just focus on his policies.” Q: “Have you spoken to him after he made those comments?” Q: “Has he called you? Mr Goh: “After the elections, he probably will email me. If he emails me, I’ll email him back.” Q: “One more question on the NS...they’re saying that NS men don’t feel proud anymore and in-camp training is taking up hours...” Mr Tan: “I would actually disagree. It's a very large discipline...Would you have NS men that would feel that way? I’m sure there would be some because obviously it’s onerous, it’s not easy, but certainly in my experience and I think in our experience, we have met NS men who are committed and I think I am very proud of the fact that many of them come back, served faithfully whether on mission training, exercises, so on and so forth. So that is a perspective that they might have, but I think that is not a reason to cut NS. I think the whole function of the National Service and the structure of the army is more fundamental than that. I think the army continues to try to make it a positive experience. I think they have come leaps and bounds from where we used to be. So I think that is actually an erroneous statement. It is actually ...” Q: “SM, besides just attesting to George Yeo’s abilities and capabilities, what else have you done to help the PAP win...” Mr Goh: “No, as I said, I am not in the thick of battle. This is the battle for George Yeo. He is doing as much as he can do and it is for PM to also work out a strategy because I look at it from the point of somebody above the fray, from the point of Singaporean’s interest. As I said, one day we will lose a GRC, I just hope it is not going to be our core member in future. I cannot say we will never lose one, that is unrealistic, but I just hope whenever we lose one, it is not going to affect our team so much. If there are many pillars, knock down a few pillars and so on, then you have got a team. But I would say they deserve opposition is not something new. MM when he was PM and myself felt it as long as 1984. So we were trying to find a way whereby we can let Singaporeans have their cake and eat it because we believe the Parliament must have room for alternative voices. We believe that you must have diversified opinion in Parliament, but in Singapore’s election, if the party had done very well in a previous election and a good candidate is better than opposition, in the past opposition could not produce good candidates. As a result we will end up winning almost all the seats. We are very happy, but we know that a large segment of Singaporeans feel that there is no voice from our side. So in 1984 we spent a lot of time trying to debate how to inject this opposition or alternative voices into Parliament. We could not think up of a better scheme than NCMP. So today, if anybody can think of a better scheme than that, we are prepared to consider. So we thought of the NCMP scheme, but I was very cautious. Although the constitution allowed for six, I prefer evolution. So I only have three NCMP scheme. Well, PM is a bit more adventurous, meaning he is prepared to take the risk because he could feel that the desire is even stronger today. So he changed the Constitution to allow for nine NCMPs. Nine is 10 per cent of 87, that’s a large number to entrench. Well, Worker’s Party Low Thia Kiang said I am not going to step NCMP scheme. I am not going to be an NCMP if I lose the election. Is that being responsible? You want to be a voice in Parliament, you lose, you still go to Parliament and be a voice. What is «

7

the difference between elected and non-elected other than the ability to vote on Constitutional matters? But the voice is still the same voice whether Low Thia Kiang and are elected or not elected directly, the voice is the same voice. I do not see Low Thia Kiang’s voice suddenly become very soft? It is the same voice. So we are trying to evolve a system where you have an array of opposition voices in Parliament, then you can debate. And if they are good, they will hold us to account in Parliament as NCMP, good to answer. So they are trying to force the people to vote for them directly, say I am not going to accept it. So we are trying to evolve a system where people have their cake and eat it. We are not saying you must therefore vote PAP all the time. No, we say vote for opposition candidates whom you think can help you in the Constituency, look after Town Council, can debate in Parliament. If they are good, they get elected, we accept it, we accept it. But in case they lose, at any one time, there will be nine NCMP scheme. So this is the way of letting Singaporeans have their cake and eat it. Well it is up to Singaporeans to accept. If they do not accept the scheme, well that is up to them, but that is the way for us to move forward, then you can have political stability.” Q: “But SM the thing is we have just heard that activists and party members, some of the party members are saying they have never felt the need for opposition amongst the people until this election. I mean even we ran a story on how they thought that the need for opposition is very high now. The desire for more opposition, elected opposition is very high now. What wrong?” Mr Goh: “Yes, because, the reason is, we are now climbing up a high mountain, we are nearing the top. It is much more difficult to deliver to the aspirations, to meet the aspirations of the people. You take yourself, you are young, your standard of living today is much higher than my standard of living when I was young. I live in a house without modern sanitation, I cycled to school, I got a bursary to go to university. The moment I graduated, I was pro-PAP right away. No problem, because I started from a low base, but we cannot go back to the past. The young people today start from a high base, so how to meet their aspirations? So that is the challenge that we have. How to meet the aspirations of the younger people? We are not telling you go back to the past, that is wrong, but to be able to meet the aspiration like housing for example, what kind of housing, what price and so on, it is very difficult to meet. So therefore when you have all these problems, you will find that there is a certain restiveness. I don’t blame you because if your parents own a five-room flat and you have got to buy a four-room flat, you are downgrading. That is the reality of life. If your parents owns a terrace house, the son cannot own a terrace house right away. There is no way. So he has got to spend his own money. He has to buy a three- room, four-room flat. So he says this is downgrading, right? In my time, whenever we bought something, it is upgrading I felt that was upgrading, so that is the reality of life, that is the challenge. So the key question is how do we deliver results for people like you, the young people that is the key ” Q: “Senior Minister, do you think it is a positive sign that the opposition has introduced more candidates that are highly qualified?” Mr Goh: “It is positive and that is a reflection of our educational standards. My time, only two per cent of each cohort went to university. Today, 20 per cent, therefore naturally you have better qualified candidates and it is positive and that is the meaning of First World Parliament by MM’s definition. When MM talks about First World Parliament, he meant quality people. So if they have opposition of quality, they come into Parliament later on, I think that is a plus because we can then engage in real debate on issues. So I would encourage them to find more and more such people. It makes our life much more difficult. Would you rather have sleeper man contesting against us or good quality? My choice is the good quality contesting against me? Then if I lose I know the Singaporeans will not lose, we won’t lose because the other side is a good person. If you have a sleeper man and for some reason we said the wrong thing, we lose, then I think Singapore is worse off. And coming to that, I cannot resist but to say something about NSP. I look at the manifesto, I discussed with the team, it is all motherhood statements. Where is the plan for implementing those motherhood statements? And then on NS, Armed Forces and so on, I have got to challenge them, please flesh out what you mean by reduce army and so on, but I feel very in a sense, I am just amused that Nicole Seah has been asked to carry on her shoulder, four men. I could not believe that. Four men in their 60s, in their 30s being carried by one young woman. She is a very able woman, I have met her. Very personable, very photogenic, but I don’t think it is fair for her to carry four men, but my question is, can they run Marine Parade GRC? Can they run a town council? That is the key. So well, by all means look at them, but just examine. The day after election, who will be in-charge of your lives in Marine Parade GRC. In my case, I am already preparing for my eventual retirement. When? I don’t know, but I am preparing for my eventual retirement. So I have asked PM to send in BG Tan and one day, hopefully he does well, he becomes an office holder, then he takes over from me. That is the way you run things you see. Why? Singaporeans’ interests is important.” Q: “There is this one party SDA that is recommending for nominated ministers for you to bring back, do you think that?” Mr Goh: “Do not be seduced by all these arguments, you see. Then you don’t take elections seriously. We do not take it seriously. We lose, we just appoint somebody from outside. I don’t think it is a good idea. I would rather that we have people, ministers nominated or appointed from elected MPs. Otherwise, why should I take you seriously? If I lose George Yeo, I lose Teo Chee Hean, what is the problem? I appoint somebody. You should not appoint them because they have lost the election. You should appoint somebody else new . If there is somebody else outside like Teo Chee Hean and George Yeo, I would say stand for election.” Q: “But their point is that they want to bring back these ministers because they want to ensure stability.” Mr Goh: “No, that is, now they argue, supposing we had argued that we should have appointed ministers, they would have argued the other way. Surely they will argue the other way, they will say this is nonsense You must be elected first. So do not be seduced by their arguments. At the end of the day, what I would like to do is focus on issues which are of concern to Singaporeans and who can resolve your problems. That is key.” 9

Q: “Do you think it is an issue raised by NSP that NS men are at a disadvantage, because they are seeking the same job as compared to a foreigner. Do you think this is a problem?” Mr Tan: "I do not think, I mean there will be people who will from time to time raise this as an issue, but we don’t see that as a particular disadvantage. In fact, I would say that I think a lot of our NS men actually because of their responsibilities are, in the NS appointments, actually they have developed their leadership skills, organisation skills which can be an asset to companies as well. So it will vary from company to company, but I think there is value add as well. So I would say that is not holding correct statement as well.” Mr Goh: “On NS, I don’t know whether we still do this annual survey on attitude in NS. When I was Defence Minister, we did that and I think they continued. You have got to monitor the mood on the ground of the NS, the morale, very important. We monitor that quietly because if the morale goes down and we do not know, as SDF generals and defence minister, when you have a crisis, the morale is down, you are in trouble. So we monitor all the time and we know that generally the morale is high. People are proud to be NS men. So you still do isn’t it?”

Mr Tan: “We do.” Mr Goh: “You got the latest results?” Mr Tan: “I think it’s still positive. I think, and it is important to track this because like I said capabilities are really nothing if the will to fight it not there. Will to fight is really gives confidence, the level of commitment and we find that actually our NS men are very committed.” Mr Goh: “But we are addressing the issue of more and more foreigners in Singapore because NS men can quite rightly ask, there are so many foreigners over here, who am I defending? These are the script questions which PM, SDF and the others have to address. We should not dismiss that lightly. It is a real issue of concern to the younger people. Ok, anything else? Alright? So how will you report? Small issues, big issues?” Q: “Some interesting issues, but it is quite surprising that for all that PAP does, I mean backup plans and all, you all don’t have a backup for George Yeo.”

Mr Goh: “They can’t find them. Flow can they have backup so easily?” Q: “But in case it’s possible.” Mr Goh: “You cannot have a backup because if you have a good backup, he should be in the line-up. Pie’s the backup for me. is a backup for MM. Ong Ye Kung is a backup for somebody else Pleng Swee Keat is the backup for Tharman. Right? So they’re all there. But who’s the backup Prime Minister? We don’t know. That’s for them to show their ability to lead, to explain, to mobilise. So we don’t know, but PM is now trying to find a backup for himself. So how can you have a backup from outside? And when George Yeo is gone, maybe somebody new can become a Foreign Minister, maybe somebody old can become a Foreign Minister. But you just go through it, you take out from this hole to that hold, there’s another 10

hole there because Jayakumar has retired. has retired, has retired. Not as Foreign Minister, so you can go through. has retired, I think he was a Foreign Minister before, but Wong Kan Seng, he was a Foreign Minister before, but he’s also finding a replacement for himself. So when we run Singapore, we run on the basis we try to cover for one another in the long term. But it is not so easy to have somebody else to backup. PM goes today, what happens? Yes, there’s a backup, somebody from DPM will take over, DPM Teo will take over, backup. Then who takes over from DPM Teoh? Defence Minister. Not so easy. I’m sure one of them can take over later on, but immediately after election you want BG Tan to take over as Defence Minister? I would say better to test his political skills first. So that is the way you plan for Singapore and in Singapore’s interests. Okay, good Thank you. ”

/Monitoring